The Joe Rogan Experience - #1897 - Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

Graham Hancock is a researcher, journalist, and author of over a dozen books including "Fingerprints of the Gods" and "America Before: The Key to Earth's Lost Civilization." Check out his new Netflix series, "Ancient Apocalypse," on November 11. Randall Carlson is a researcher, master builder, architectural designer, geometrician, and host of the podcast "Kosmographia." www.grahamhancock.com www.randallcarlson.com

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. These are some of my all-time favorite podcasts, I just have to tell you. I'm so excited to have you guys in today. I really was, all weekend, I was giddy. I was giddy thinking about today. So, congratulations on the Netflix series. I am super excited to, first of all, to have that on a mainstream platform is such a huge victory for you.

Thank you. Congratulations, Graham. Thank you. It's all turning in both of your way. I mean, there was so much skepticism just years ago, but now it seems like with, and even Michael Shermer, you were showing me something that he tweeted today. Yeah, well, no, he tweeted it a while ago. But, you know, he walked back on some of his criticisms of our work. It was in light of new evidence of the Younger Drives Impact Theory. Exactly, exactly. No, it's been a major challenge getting this show done. But

it's the first time, I think, that these radical ideas have got onto a major platform. And the whole focus of the thing is summed up in the title of the show, Ancient Apocalypse, because we had an incredible apocalypse that hit this planet. And it wasn't just one moment. had an incredible apocalypse that hit this planet. And it wasn't just one moment. It was 1,200 years of hell on earth between roughly 12,800 and 11,600 years ago. And that is not taken into account by mainstream historians and archaeologists. Something that really changed the world needs to be taken into account if we're claiming to have a full knowledge of the past of humanity. And so I'm just really glad that Netflix have taken this show on and are going to blast it out to a worldwide audience. And hopefully that will begin to put more pressure on the academics who, frankly, I'm not a conspiracist,

but they do act as gatekeepers as to what may be allowed out in front of the public and what may be not allowed. Yes. And that seems to be because of the books they've written, the lectures they've given, that they've given all these lectures and they've written all these books that have theories that are outdated and they don't want to let those theories go in light of the new evidence. They want to push back as much as possible because it frankly weakens their credibility as the arbiters of the truth. Yeah, I think that's the issue. But really some quite sinister things have happened. Because of this show, I got banned from Egypt. That's the very clever way for archaeologists

to make sure that no criticism can come in of their sites, is just to, of their take on things, is just to ban the critic from coming there. I got banned from Serpent Mound in Ohio. Can you imagine that? I mean, Serpent Mound is a national landmark. People should not get banned from going there. When you say banned, meaning you tried to go there to film or just to visit? Yeah, when we approached them to make an episode of my Netflix series at Serpent Mound, initially they were welcoming. And then they heard that Graham Hancock was presenting the series.

And immediately they turned around and said, no, filming permission is refused because Hancock's views differ from our own. is refused because Hancock's views differ from our own. Well, I was able to make a virtue of that in the sense that I stood at the gates of Serpent Mound, which were closed, and I read out their letter where they say that just because I don't agree with them, they won't allow me access to the site. Fortunately, we have masses of footage, drones, and other things, and we were able to do the show. But it shows, again, and other things, and we were able to do the show. But it shows, again, the limited mentality. People must be very insecure in their ideas if they actually have to ban critics from expressing alternative ideas.

And what is the significance of Serpent Mound? Well, the first and foremost thing is it's an incredible, beautiful, amazing site, which everybody who can get to Ohio should go and see. It's just a most incredible place. But secondly, there are indications that it's much older than it's supposed to be. And that has particularly to do with the way that the jaws of the serpent line up to the setting sun. And because the changing positions of the sunset due to changes in the earth's motion. So this is it here? That's it there. We're looking at the, that's the head of the serpent and is looking straight at the setting sun. And this alignment was perfect about 12,500 years ago. It's slightly off today and that's because of

changes in the rising point of the sun over thousands and thousands of years. And that's what they don't like. They don't want Serpent Mount to be older. There's one group of archaeologists think it's just 1,000 years old. Another group think, well, maybe it's 2,500 or 3,000 years old. But the notion that it might be 12,000 years old is something they don't want anybody to hear, really. And is the evidence that it's 12,000 years old just based with the alignment of the sun, or is there other evidence? No, there's other evidence as well. There's material from that time that have been found at Serpent Mound, but archaeologists consider it to be irrelevant to the date of Serpent Mound.

Yeah, material, like what kind of material? Carbon datable material, objects, bits of wood that were burned. People were there, people were doing stuff. It's clear that that site has been constructed and reconstructed multiple times over thousands and thousands of years. This is a theme that I've found throughout making Ancient Apocalypse. When you look at a particular site, what you're looking at is the latest incarnation of that site.

But the site itself has been sacred for millennia. And it needs repair. It needs renovation, particularly if it's an earthen mound like Serpent Mound. And so that is a theme that does seem to be repeated even under modern accepted archeological understandings of ancient sites like the Parthenon and the Acropolis. Well less so. Less so in terms of the so. Less so in terms of the timeline. Less so in terms of the timeline. I mean, one of the sites we visited for the series is an

incredible pyramid in Mexico at a place called Cholula. And it is, in fact, the largest pyramid in the world. Very few people have even heard of it. But it's a much bigger pyramid than the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt. It's not as high, but its footprint is massive. So it's a huge, humongous thing sitting there on the ground. And it turns out that inside it are four other pyramids that were built on top of what we see and what we see now. What we see now was built on top of those older pyramids. And then at the very heart of it is a sort of sacred spring that seems to have been the reason for the creation of that. And we, again, explore the possibility that the origins of this site

may be much older than the archaeological dating. So how long did it take you guys to do this series? Well, to be clear, the series is me, and it's me making it. But Randall plays an incredibly important role in the series. Randall and I are comrades in arms. We're working together against the mainstream to bring an alternative point of view, and Randall is the star of episode eight,

and episode eight is the episode where we bring the whole story of the ancient apocalypse together, the terrible things that happened to this world, the terrible things. That was the time when all the great megafauna went extinct, the saber-toothed tigers, the woolly rhinos, and so on and so forth. They all went extinct between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago. And there's evidence of just utterly cataclysmic flooding in North America, particularly in

the Channel Scablands in the Pacific Northwest. And that flooding came off the ice cap, and something made it come off the ice cap really, really fast. And Randall has just devoted years of his life to studying this mystery. What really went on there? And let's not underestimate it. Let's just not talk about lakes bursting their banks. Let's talk about something huge that took place, And the landscape speaks to that huge event. And, Randall, you've discussed this on the podcast before.

But in the interest of making this a standalone show, we should probably get into it before. You came up with this idea. What year was it when that idea first came to your mind? Remember, you were telling me you were on acid. were looking at how that well that that was 1969 yeah and uh i didn't quite formulate a specific theory at that point but you had a thought i had an impression i call it an impression i was looking at at an underfit river. You know what that is? No.

Jamie, can we do a map? And I'm going to show you exactly what we're talking about here. I'm going to zoom in on... Okay, well... Oh, here you go. Oh, okay. Nice. Okay. A little HDMI action. okay, well. Oh, here you go. Oh, okay. Nice. Okay.

A little HDMI action. Yeah, yeah. There we go. Okay. All right. You're going to learn a new term, Joe. It's underfit river. Okay, so it was a little different back in 1969,

but Eden Prairie was a location of an airport. Let me put this onto terrain. All right, here we go. And let me see. Here we go. So this is the Minnesota River Valley. And I was standing. I actually went back and found the, a few years ago, found the spot I was standing.

And it was right here on this bluff, looking into this valley. Now, if you go here, you can see there's another side to it over here. And if you look back here, you're going to see this is what's an underfit river. An underfit river is where the modern river is diminutive relative to the channel that it's flowing in. And the channel was part of what they called the spillway of Lake Agassiz, which was a gigantic meltwater lake that formed in that interval that we, Graham was just talking about. So this is the modern Minnesota River, which is a fairly substantial river, probably close to the Colorado here that runs through Austin. But you can see the channel. The channel is huge relative to the river. A few geologists have worked on it and concluded that the meltwater flow here through here was 4,000 times greater than the modern flow of the Minnesota River.

So anyways, I was standing here looking out into this. And what I saw was the modern river entrenched within a couple of banks. And then I'm looking at this huge channel. And I just had this impression that, was this a huge river channel? You know how, because see what I was looking, three miles across there's another set of 200 foot high bluffs matching the ones that I was standing on, and then below me was the modern Minnesota River with its banks, which were like miniature versions of the bluffs. Now, it was a full decade before I actually came back to the idea,

as I was beginning to learn more about catastrophism, which was still very much in the seminal stages back in the, say, 70s. You know, we've learned so much more about the catastrophic history of this planet since then. But then I began to think, well, and this was before I even knew about Glacial River Warren, it was called, which was the flow through here. And you can actually, I took, Graham, we went there. We did indeed. We did. Right up here by Ortonville is Big Stone, see Big Stone City. So this is the southern outlet of Lake Agassiz.

And this was one of the outburst floods, many outburst floods of gigantic flows of meltwater coming off the ice sheet. Big Stone City, now when you look at names of lakes and towns and places, oftentimes there's clues, like Big Stone City and Big Stone Lake. If you go there, there's big stones laying all over the landscape that were flushed out in this catastrophic

draining of Lake Agassiz. Because these drainings would have involved not just water, but icebergs. Yes. Turbulent flows of water filled with icebergs the size of oil tankers. And inside those icebergs locked up are huge chunks of rock. And eventually the iceberg melts and it releases the rock. And that's how you get the big stone. Yeah. And then the last place we went, Graham, was the potholes at St. Croix Falls. I'll zoom in here. And this is an interesting place. There's a constriction in the bedrock. This is hard basalt bedrock. When you have water flow coming along, it's got a conservation of volume so that if you have a narrow part of the channel, the water coming in as it's going into that constricted channel speeds up

because if you take measure of the water flow at any two points along the channel, it's going to be the same. Whether it's a wide channel with shallower water moving slower or a narrower channel with deeper water moving faster, the discharge through that channel is going to be the same. Well, what happens is if it comes into a constriction, it has to speed up then. When it speeds up, it becomes more erosive. And that's exactly what happened right here at Taylor's Falls. And right here at Interstate Park is a series of gigantic potholes. Now these potholes are evidence of intense turbulence within swiftly moving deep water. In a minute here, I'll pull up. I've got a great shot. When Graham and I were there,

I was in the bottom of one of these potholes and Graham is peering over the rim and it's a great shot because you can really get the sense of the scale. I'll pull it up here in a second but if we go where did this water come from? This water came from right up here, Lake Nipigon. That was the source of this water. And when you go south of Lake Nipigon, the whole landscape is channel scab lands, just like Graham and I were seeing out in Washington.

And this is very convincing evidence of really catastrophic water flows. And I've always thought it's interesting, or at least for the last decade or so, that if you look at the elevation of the land here, you look at the elevation of the land over here, it's the same. But if you go in the middle here, it's 500 to 1,000 feet lower. What happened here, there was a major discharge south out of Lake Nipigon, came down through. And I think we should add that Lake Nipigon was discharging because it was filled up with

water that came out of the ice cap and filled it up. Yes. What is the conventional explanation for these massive bluffs that are very far apart from each other with a relatively small river running through them? Try as I might, I've never found an explanation. But you can look here at this. But you can look here at this, and this is pure what you call scab land, which is the result of major erosional, intense erosion. Cutting out, this is a coulee, but you look at the— It looks like somebody's just been picking scabs off the skin of the land, and that was these water flows rushing through it,

filled with icebergs and whole forests ripped up by their roots. Naturally, it looks like torn up scabs. And so it's your assertion that this all came out of the cataclysm, that this all came out of the impacts, the comet impacts. Oh, yeah. James Teller, a geologist, has dated these flows 12,800 to 12,900 years ago. And how has he done that? Radiocarbon dating primarily by finding, if you have a flood and it's picking up anything organic, bone, wood, whatever, and you look in those deposits and you sample, and the

samples, let's say because it's a flood, what it's going to do, it's going to pick up younger and older material because it's washing away, it's excavating other land and so what you do is you get enough dateable material and if it keeps coming up that the maximum age is a given age that's probably when the flood happened or a minimum age rather not a maximum age. In other words a flood might pick up stuff that's 15,000 years old and 12,000. Well when when did the flood happen? At 15,000 or 12,000. So what you do is you look for the youngest datable material, and that should usually give you a pretty good idea of when the flood happened. So James Teller has dated this overflow here. And

again, it comes out perfectly consistent with the Younger Dryas. I think it's important to add at that point that there's a reason for all of this. And this is a huge controversy in science at the moment. We know that there was enormous flooding 12,800 years ago. But the question is, what caused it? Why did it happen then? And there's a very powerful theory, which is now backed by more than 100 mainstream scientists, that the Earth passed through the debris stream of a disintegrating comet. And that theory is called the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis. And those several bits of that disintegrating comet might have been pretty big, maybe up to a kilometer in diameter.

And they landed on the North American ice cap, generating huge amounts of heat. Tremendous shockwave hits the ice cap and it turns that ice into water and it rushes down southwards, fills up these lakes, overflows these lakes and tears up the landscape underneath it. And this Younger Dryas impact hypothesis is by far, in my view,

the best explanation of what's going on. And I'm very happy to say that the Comet Research Group, the 100 scientists who are behind this, they've been funding their own research for nearly two decades because no big mainstream institution would get behind them. But just in the last couple of years, some big funding has come into the Comet Research Group. And they're now in a position to go look at Antarctic ice, to go look at all the evidence from all over the world that shows that this cataclysm did happen 12,800 years ago. And that we're dealing with something really that is almost unimaginable in its scope and which should change the way that we look at the history of the human species if it were not for this resistance. I wonder if we could just show a short clip which has got Randall in it, the Randall clip,

which is from the Ancient Apocalypse show and where Randall makes the point at the end of it, that once we take this into account, the whole story of history is going to change completely. And that's what we're fighting for. We're fighting for some recognition that something really important is missing. All right, here we go. Ancient, built with surprising sophistication. It's the most amazing archaeoastronomy site in North America. Revealing the fingerprints of an advanced prehistoric civilization.

This pillar is like our Rosetta Stone. The possibility of civilization emerging earlier than we think gets much stronger. It's gonna absolutely demand a rewrite of history as we know it. Ooh. And this is the point. This is the point. This is why I've made this series, because that idea has to get out there,

that we've got to stop being so complacent about how we look at our past. And for the very same reason we need to stop being so complacent about how we look at our past. And for the very same reason we need to stop being so complacent about how we look at our future as well. We live in a hazardous cosmic environment. It just happens that we live at a time in the human story where if we chose to do so, we could actually do something about it. What motivated you to get involved in this? I know Fingerprints of the Gods you released in the 90s. It was 1995. That's when I first read it and I became obsessed. What motivated you to put that out?

It was a process, really. I used to be a current affairs journalist. I was the East Africa correspondent for The Economist. I had no interest in history whatsoever, but I began to come across things, particularly traveling initially in Ethiopia and then in Egypt, which made me wonder about the past. And, you know, standing in front of the Great Pyramid of Egypt is an awe-inspiring experience, especially when you've never seen it before. And in 1989, when I first saw it, I had never seen it before. Six million tons, 481 foot high, 13 acre footprint, this massive thing. And archaeologists are saying it's just the tomb of a pharaoh. And yet no pharaoh's body was ever found inside it or indeed inside any ancient Egyptian pyramid. There had to be

another explanation. And I started to, I've always been a contrarian. I've always tried to give an opposite point of view. I hate it when there's just a single narrative that says this is the truth and there is no other truth. And so I felt it was important to start giving an alternative point of view. And I started to look into it in depth. Could there be something missing from the story of our past? And that's why I ended up writing Fingerprints of the Gods, to put that information before the public, to allow people access to information that they had not had access to before, and to begin to think for themselves instead of just accepting the word of the so-called experts. The experts know a great deal. I couldn't do anything I do without the work that archaeologists do, but they shouldn't be given a monopoly over the story of the human past. Our past belongs to us. It belongs to all of us. And everybody, whether they're an academic or whether they're a man in the

street, they've got something to contribute to the idea of our past. And the Younger Jairus Impact Theory, when was that first brought out? 2007. That was when it first brought out. it immediately caught my eye because when I wrote Fingerprints of the Gods, I proposed that there had been a gigantic global cataclysm about 12,500 years ago, but I didn't really know what had caused it. I suggested a number of possibilities. And then suddenly in 2007, out comes this hypothesis with mainstream backing by mainstream scientists saying that it looks like there was a series, not just one impact, but multiple impacts all over the earth around 12,800 years ago that caused this cataclysm. And I began to follow that theory. And by

about 2013, it became clear to me that these scientists were onto something really big. And I dived back into it and ended up writing another couple of books, Magicians of the Gods and America Before, which we talked about on your show back in 2019, just to try to put that information out there. And it's fascinating, really, very lazy, the way that archaeologists react to an alternative point of view.

In my case, they almost never get to grips with the material that I've put out there in the books. They just say, oh, Hancock, he's a pseudoscientist. He's a fraud. He's a liar. But they never say why I'm a pseudoscientist, why I'm a fraud, or why I'm a liar. They just throw those words out and you go to Wikipedia and that's what you see. And the point about Wikipedia is that's the first place, if somebody hears my name or hears about my ideas, first place they're going to go have a look is Wikipedia. And immediately they're going to get turned off. And you can't edit my Wikipedia page. They've locked it. And it's controlled by a group of academics. So I do find this incredibly irritating. But the only thing to do is to keep on going. And this is why, frankly, Joe, your show has been so important, because you're one of the very few people who's

allowed this information to get out to the general public, this contrary information, which the mainstream doesn't want to hear. You're a powerful platform that's allowed this information to reach so many more people than it otherwise would have reached. And I'm grateful to you for that. Well, I'm grateful to you guys. I'm really grateful because it's such an exciting notion. It's such an exciting idea. And it makes sense when you look at these incredible structures that we don't really have an explanation for. And when we think about the conventional dating of modern history and modern civilization, they want to put it at around 6,000 ish years ago. That's right. That's right. And then, you know, that was the view really for

decades, that civilization began about 6,000 years ago. And before that, there was no such thing as civilization. And they say that the first big megalithic structures were created by societies that were already agricultural societies. So they were generating surpluses, which allowed specialists to have the time to learn how to be architects and engineers and builders. But then suddenly out of the blue, and we've got an episode on this in the series, comes Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, which is 11,600 years old. It's 5,000 years old than the supposed oldest megalithic structures. And it's a fucking enormous megalithic structure, probably the biggest megalithic structure on Earth because so much of it is still underground, although we know what's there because of ground penetrating radar. Highly sophisticated, 20-ton pillars, beautiful astronomical alignments,

buried, deliberately buried by the people who created. They ran it for about 1,000 years, and then they deliberately buried it. And archaeology is still struggling to explain this. They've now had to say, well, okay, somehow megalithic architecture began thousands of years before we thought it began. How are we going to explain this? And they have to accept this is one of the mysteries of Gobekli Tepe, that the archaeology does show this quite clearly, that when the work began on Gobekli Tepe, 11,600 years ago, the entire population there were hunter-gatherers. They were not agriculturalists

generating those supposed surpluses that would allow experts in architecture to emerge. They were hunter gatherers. And how in God's name do a group of hunter gatherers wake up one morning and create something like this, this enormous scale? And then the mystery deepens because at the same time that they're building the megalithic site, they're also suddenly doing agriculture. And I look at that as a contrarian. And I say, I actually don't think that this was something that was just dreamed up overnight by a group of hunter-gatherers. I think I'm looking at a transfer of technology. I think people came to that site who already knew how to do this stuff. And maybe they used that site to mobilize the

local population, to push them into a new direction. And that was truly the beginnings of civilization as we know it. But I think it was a restarting of civilization, a reboot, not the actual beginnings. I think there was an earlier lost civilization. And that's the whole point of the show I've made. One should mention about that particular date, 11,600. Well, it's incredibly important. It's an incredibly important day because the Younger Dryas begins 12,800 years ago with a cataclysm, with a puzzling, mysterious rise in sea level at the same point. A thousand years of freezing temperatures, mass extinctions of animal species all over the world. And then 11,600 years ago, global temperature shoots up.

The last of the ice caps collapse into the sea, sea level rises enormously. That is the date that work starts at Gobekli Tepe. And that is a point I've made many times, but it's really worth making because archaeologists roll their eyes every time you say the word Atlantis. But that is precisely the date that Plato, which is the earliest surviving reference to Atlantis, that's precisely the date he gives for the destruction of Atlantis, 11,600 years before our time. He puts it this way, that his ancestor Solon visited Egypt. And we know about that visit. It's historically recorded. That visit to Egypt was in 600 BC. And there Solon claimed to have been told by Egyptian priests

about this great advanced civilization that once existed existed but that angered the gods and was destroyed in an enormous flood. And Solon asked those Egyptian priests, when did this happen? And they said, oh, 9,000 years ago. Well, do the math. That's in 600 B.C. That's 9,000 years before 600 B. We call that 9,600 BC. That's 11,600 years ago. That's exactly the date of the end of the Younger Dryas. And it's exactly the date of what is called Meltwater Pulse 1b, one of the biggest single rises overnight in sea

level that ever occurred. So if Plato made it up, it's really weird that he picked a date that is precisely a date that coincides with the latest geological evidence on cataclysmic sea level rise at the end of the Ice Age. Could be a coincidence, but... A pretty good one. I will mention, I did a two-parter on all of the deep what Graham just talking about and the geological evidence that confirms or refutes Plato's account. And it's available on my website for download. And it's like seven hours, seven hours of detailed unpacking. Yeah, you go deep, bro. You go deep. And you see, the academics have never bothered to do this

because in their pride and in their arrogance, they just say, oh, we know that Plato just made it up, that it's just a fantasy. They don't know that. And it's people like Randall coming from the outside who are actually doing the legwork that makes us think about all this again. And there's plenty of evidence that there were many sites

like this that were thought to be just legend and myth, like Troy, for instance, that has now been proven to be an actual real city that mimics the initial descriptions of it, the historical descriptions of it. We should never dismiss myths. We should always listen to them. They're the memory bank of our species,

and they may be expressed in symbolic language. There may be wonderful stories built around them, but at the core is factual information. And what better way to ensure that factual information is passed down to the future than to record it in a fantastic story that people will pass on. People love telling stories and they don't even need to understand what the heart of the story is. As long as it's a great story, they're going to keep on passing it down to the future. So I think myth is very important. And that's something that we do in my Netflix series is we look at the myths. The story of Atlantis is not alone. There are thousands of traditions from all around the world, speaking of a global flood that destroyed a former civilization that brought to an end a golden age.

that destroyed a former civilization that brought to an end a golden age. With all this physical evidence and with all these myths, are there more and more people that are accepting this or exploring this with curiosity and open-mindedness now? I would say yes. And one of the things that makes me confident that that's happening is because I am getting a lot of emails and communications from people, young people going,

you know what, I was watching your stuff and Graham's stuff. I've decided I'm going to go into geology. I mean, I've gotten dozens. Or I'm going to go into paleontology or archaeoastronomy or archaeology. So just the fact that I'm getting those kinds of communications from people,

every time I get one, that's encouraging to me. Because I think it's the old axiom that sometimes in order to evolve past an entrenched theory, the gatekeepers have to pass away and a new generation has to come along who's a little more willing to look outside that dogmatic framework. Also, if you are a young archaeologist and you're trying to carve your way in the world, what better way than to explore this with tons of evidence that's very controversial theory that's been dismissed? Takes courage, though. Takes courage on the part of those archaeologists because they can lose any hope of promotion if they touch ideas like this. Archaeology is a very restrictive discipline.

If you don't copy what your professor says, if you go off on a tangent, they'll cut you off. There's so many people who've done such great work in archaeology that doesn't fit with the mainstream and they just get isolated by their colleagues. I'm hopeful. I really am. And one of the things that gives me hope is Brian Murorescu's, the reception of his material, that book, The Immortality Key, which is fantastic, which points to real- Which I wrote the foreword to. Yes. And you did that podcast with us remotely. Yeah.

When we did that and he expressed all of this information, we talked about these ancient clay vessels that show clear evidence of some sort of psychedelic that was mixed in with wine. That was probably the origins of a lot of these, even democracy, the enlightenment, a lot of it came from these meetings and people came from all over the world to participate in these rituals. This is now being widely accepted and it's a field of study at Harvard. Yeah. And let's think about it. If you're locked, this is one of the reasons why psychedelics are being so successful in healing people with profound depression. Because what is profound depression otherwise that you're locked in a very narrow frame that you just can't escape from?

And what psychedelics seem to do is they break that lock and they allow a kind of openness to come in and new thoughts to come in. So it's not surprising that psychedelics revolutionized the ancient world. And I'm absolutely convinced that there isn't a religion in the world, and this is going to annoy a lot of people, that there isn't a religion in the world that didn't begin with experiences in altered states of consciousness. And when we talk about a lost civilization, I believe that that was a civilization that grew out of shamanism

and for which altered states of consciousness were fundamental. We've been taught to despise altered states of consciousness in our society today. We're supposed to just be alert problem solvers and not doing anything else. But it's out of altered states of consciousness that the real creativity comes and that changes in mindset come and that people can break free from previous restrictions and move in new directions. I have mentioned to you a friend of mine, Ben Johnson. He's a former Navy SEAL, 11 years as a Navy SEAL, suffering from PTSD, discovered psilocybin mushrooms. This is maybe 12 years ago, 13 years ago. And he began to, a lot of his brothers in arms also were having the same issues with PTSD, discovered that psilocybin mushrooms were a very effective treatment for it.

So he began looking into, he became a grower. And he's perfected, and over like 11 or 12 years he's perfected the growing technique and he has now been granted the first federal license to legally grow psilocybin and they're building a laboratory in north georgia and it'll probably be where we eventually will get all of our shrooms from it would be very interesting discussion for you to talk to him. I'd love to talk to him. About what he's got going on. And I've asked, I said, would you ever think about going on Joe's show and see and talk about what you're doing? He said, I'd love to.

A very interesting man. But yeah, 11 years as a Navy SEAL, and he saw it all. And mushrooms is what saved his life. And now he's building a laboratory. He's got funding. He's building a multimillion-dollar laboratory in North Georgia. I've seen his operation. It's mind-blowingly impressive what he's got going on. Well, that connects us with Dennis McKenna and Terrence McKenna's ideas of human beings literally evolving from lower hominids experimenting with psilocybin mushrooms. It's a very powerful idea.

And, you know, kudos to Terence McKenna. And I never knew Terence personally, but I do know Dennis very, very well. And he's a fantastic researcher in this field. Kudos to them for realizing it. in this field. Kudos to them for realizing, Terence's book was called Food of the Gods, that encounters with psychedelics, with ancient psychedelics, were what put humanity on a huge leap forward. And then unfortunately, we have repressive forces in society that have tried to shut that down and demonize it. But we are missing a very, very important part of our heritage with the attitude that we have to psychedelics right now. And that's why I'm so happy to see

that mainstream research is finally getting involved in this. They're realizing that these are real healing vehicles, that they can do things that no other big pharma medicine can do. My only concern is that big pharma takes it over and that they start putting in, you know, synthetic psilocybin and patenting it in various ways. This again, it's like it's like our past. This is a this is a birthright of all humanity, which we should have a right to. Governments should not have a right to tell adults what they may or may not put in their bodies. Governments should not have that right to hold the keys to our consciousness.

These should be matters of personal decision. And for the same reason, looking into the issue of a lost civilization, we should not look for ourselves in the past. We should not look for 21st century civilization with all its particular kinds of tech and all its attitudes. We should be open to something very different in the past, which would nevertheless capable of doing extraordinary things. Is there any evidence that the ancient Egyptians utilized psychedelics?

Definitely. The ancient Egyptians definitely used psychedelics. their psychedelic of choice was the blue water lily, which was tinctured in wine. And bottles of this were found in the tomb of Tutankhamun, as a matter of fact. And apparently, I've not experienced blue water lily myself, but apparently it induces a deeply altered state of consciousness and opens up visions and possibilities. We shouldn't despise these things. Do we know what the psychedelic compound in blue water lily is? I'm not sure. I'm not sure what it is. All I know is that it induces a dreamlike visionary state.

So we know for a fact that they utilize this based on... Yes, we do. Based on those bottles that were found in Tutankhamun's tomb. Here it is. Blue water lilies hold the key to stunning different high. Yeah. Besides being stunningly beautiful, the blue water lily has some surprising medicinal qualities, ranging from being an aphrodisiac to alleviating pain, depression, even upset stomachs. The blue water lily also has a dark underbelly.

It's got dark underbelly. It's got psychedelic properties that can catapult you into a super high. How's that dark? Also called... That's the propaganda again. Yeah. The blue lotus. The blue water lily is believed to have originated in Egypt's Nile River and was used by ancient Egyptians as a sacred substance to attain higher levels of consciousness.

In fact, it's common to find symbols representing the blue lotus in Egyptian pillars and scrolls. And that's a fact. It's all over ancient Egyptian art. And the Egyptologists tell you that they're holding those just to sniff the perfume. No, they're not. They're venerating them for their effects on consciousness. And to which we should add that the ancient Egyptian tree of life was an acacia tree and its bark contains dimethyltryptamine the most powerful hallucinogen known to man I don't like the word hallucinogen but that's the one we have to use entheogen whatever we want to say the most powerful known to science and again fortunately there is now very interesting research going on into

these things. So there are so many forbidden areas of our past, which have been forbidden by the experts, by the so-called authorities, which gradually in the new mindset of the 21st century, we are breaking through to. I think what's special about our time, and by goodness, it's a time of turbulence and a time of difficulty. We are living through a paradigm shift. And that paradigm shift has to do with our attitude to so-called experts. Yes, there is a place for experts. Of course there is. But they shouldn't be given sole control over any area of the human story. And what's happening now is that people distrust experts. And they rightly and properly distrust experts.

Because again and again the experts have misled us. And this is true with psychedelics. And it's true with the study of the ancient past of the human species as well. It's absurd that a small group of academics called archaeologists should literally hold the keys to the whole human past and tell us, lecture us, instruct us on how human beings

were in the past. There's so much more room for deep exploration on this and for people who aren't academically qualified to roll their sleeves up and get some work done. And Randall is a prime

example of that. A man who doesn't come from the field, the background of geology or archaeology, but you've rolled up your sleeves, you've walked the walk, and you've got up there and you've brought new information to the table. And that's one of the things I'd like to say, that everybody can do this. This is our past, our heritage. It should not be controlled by a tiny specialist group. We had dinner together in London, and you were speaking about research that's being done on dimethyltryprine. Can you talk about that? Well, that's happening at Imperial College, and I recently attended an event just a few weeks ago with several of the volunteers in that project. And what's happening is they are legally being given DMT at Imperial College, which is one of

the leading research institutes in the UK. And for the first time ever, they're not looking to find out what are the possible therapeutic outcomes of this. They're actually looking at the experience itself. It's very well known anybody who's used DMT, I've used DMT multiple times, is going to have entity encounters. They're going to meet entities who may sometimes look very weird. They may be part animal, part human in form. They may be almost formless, but yet they speak to you, they communicate with you. And of course, the formless, but yet they speak to you, they communicate with you. And of course, the mainstream attitude, ah, this is just rubbish, this is just your brain on drugs. Well, Imperial College, they're now testing that view. And what they're finding is that these

volunteers, and something else, DMT, as I'm sure you know, Joe, is a very short acting experience when you smoke it. It's about 12 minutes, maybe less. You're in there, you're plunged into a completely convincing, sometimes terrifying parallel reality. It's so confusing. You hardly know what's going on. And then you're out again. But you come out with a feeling that something's been downloaded to you. In Imperial College, they found a way to keep people in the peak state of DMT for an hour. They're delivering it through drip, through timed release, and they're keeping the volunteers in an hour in that state. So they have time to find their way around the DMT realm that they find themselves

in. And the astonishing thing is that these volunteers, both men and women, are all coming back with accounts of meeting the same entities and the same world. And it has to raise the question, and I know Rick Strassman has been on your show, and kudos to Rick Strassman because he was really the first scientist

to work with DMT and human volunteers at the University of New Mexico. Rick Strassman is open to the idea that what happens with DMT and human volunteers at the University of New Mexico. Rick Strassman is open to the idea that what happens with DMT is that it alters the receiver wavelength of the brain and that it allows us to gain access to other realities, that these encounters are not unreal, that they're real but they're real on a level that we can't experience in a day-to-day state of consciousness.

We have to be in an altered state of consciousness in order to experience them. And ultimately, the aim of this project is to map the DMT realm. You know, we talk a lot about extraterrestrials and ETs and making contact. And I'm sure the universe is filled with life, and it would be a very good thing to have the tech to make contact, or perhaps not a good thing, with all those other life forms in the universe. But right there in the DMT experience, inside our own heads, we have the opportunity to encounter another world, another realm, entities who are very different from ourselves and who have teachings to give us. spending a lot more research funds on exploring those experiences and finding out what's going on

rather than zooming off to other planets. Let's do both. But let's make sure that we understand that consciousness is an enormous mystery. And at the level of consciousness, DMT opens up literally a parallel world. And there's a nexus here with quantum physics and with the notion of parallel realms and parallel realities. Maybe we can actually access them. Well, the work at Imperial College ultimately is going to come up with some answers on that. And so much more cost effective. So much more cost effective. Than traveling to other galaxies. Yeah.

I mean, let's do that first. Let's understand what we are. Let's understand what our consciousness is. Let's not just keep locked in this. We're here to produce. We're here to consume. We're here to buy cars. Sure, we're here. Those are all part of our life today, but it's not all of us. We're much more mysterious, much deeper creatures than that. And psychedelics offer a doorway into another way of exploring human consciousness. And when we do that, we find that there are unseen realities all around us that can be made visible in a deeply altered state of consciousness. And yes, in terms of research funds, it's so much cheaper than trying to fly off to Mars or wherever. I'm not saying we

shouldn't do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do that. I'm just saying that if we're going to do that, we need to explore the mystery of consciousness. And if we're seriously going to engage with the ET abduction phenomenon, with extraterrestrial, so-called extraterrestrials' encounters, we must recognize that fundamental to this is consciousness. It's not just physical contact. There's consciousness involved. I wrote a book back in 2005 called Supernatural Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind. And it is astonishing, Joe, how encounters that were described as encounters

with elves and fairies in the Middle Ages, encounters that shamans to this day describe as encounters with spirits, that all the characteristics of those encounters apply to encounters with so-called extraterrestrials today. It's as though in each generation, each civilization, we construe experiences according to our cultural background. So they call them fairies and elves in the Middle Ages. Shamans call them spirits. We call them ETs today. But if we're really going to crack this problem, and it is a problem, and it is a mystery, I'm not dismissing it. It's a very important mystery. If we're going to crack it, we're going to have to use psychedelics to explore the mysteries of consciousness.

Yeah. I'm very excited that the attitudes about this stuff from the general public, people are much more open-minded now than ever before. I mean, ever in my lifetime. I remember discussing with people doing DMT in the early 2000s and people are like, what is wrong with you? Exactly. Are you crazy? Exactly. And now almost everybody and their cousin has a story about, you know, trying ayahuasca

or doing psilocybin or having some sort of an experience with peyote. Yeah. Yeah. It's very widespread. And I would say it's part of an overall change in our society, which is extremely healthy, which is the change of just accepting what the experts tell us. Oh, a scientist said this, so it must be true. We're starting to think for ourselves. And we're not willing any longer to be told what to think. We're wanting to find out for ourselves. And that attitude has very

much affected the way that people relate to psychedelics. And when people explore the psychedelic experience in a responsible way, and psychedelics are very serious business. You and I both know this. They're very, very serious business. I would not encourage children to take psychedelics. But actually, if we want to keep children away from psychedelics, we'd be far better to make them legal than leave them illegal and available on the black market. I think it's something for the mature mind. But I regard it as a fundamental human right of adults to be able to explore our unconsciousness

so long as we do no harm to others. And I see this attitude spreading much more widely in society. What the hell is that guy in a suit? What right has he got to tell me how I treat my own health or how I treat my own consciousness? So long as I do no harm to others, that is entirely my business and nobody else's. Agreed. And if this is the source of civilization or one of the reasons why people were able to think so creatively and create these incredible structures thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago. This all does coincide with this work about these apocalyptic scenarios that you guys

are talking about because if we don't have an understanding of how we got to where we were, and we also don't have an understanding that this can happen to us again. It's very possible for it to happen again. It's indeed possible for it to happen again. And in the eighth episode of Ancient Apocalypse, one of the scientists from the Comet Research Group makes that point, that the comet that disintegrated, that caused so much damage on Earth 12,800 years ago, its debris stream is still in orbit.

The Earth passes through it twice a year. And in the next 30 years, we're going to be passing through a very lumpy bit of this 30 million kilometer wide debris stream that's called the torrid meteor stream. We should be paying much more attention to that because it's not doom and gloom, because we can do something about it should we choose to do so and let's you know let's stop focusing all our efforts on fighting one another and hating one another and filling the word with world with anger and fury and let's let's work together as a human species to make life on this planet better for better for everybody that's that's that's what's going on now there's's a new mindset which is coming into force.

And I celebrate the youth of our society today because they are refusing to be bound by the orders that are given to them by the powers that be. There's a new spirit of thinking for ourselves. And that new spirit is, in my view, going to change everything. It seems like a dark time right now. A lot of stuff is going on. That's always the case when you're in the middle of a paradigm shift. It seems like a dark time, but we're privileged to live at this time because 200, 300 years from now,

this time is going to be looked back on as a turning point in the human story. We might mention it. Speaking of the torrid meteor shower, we are passing through the torrid meteor stream right now as we speak. As we speak, yeah. Late October to about the second week in November up to about the 15th or 17th of November, Earth is passing through that stream. And it probably is the most important meteor stream in terms of the history of recent life on this planet. meteor stream in terms of the history of recent life on this planet. And this goes, you know,

to people like Bill Napier and all of those guys who've... Major astronomers are very aware of this. And it's almost like something is trying to shut them down and stop the word getting out there. Yes, NASA has a search for near-Earth asteroids, but weirdly they're not paying any attention to the Taurid meteor stream. We know that there's 200 objects in the Taurid meteor stream that are a kilometer or more in diameter. Comet Enki, which is at the heart of the stream, is almost five kilometers in diameter. These are all fragments of that original giant comet that began to disintegrate 12,800 years ago and that the Earth ran into. So is this – what are you showing me, Jamie?

This is a video on Twitter of the Tord Meteor Stream. That's a great time to see shooting stars. Fireball pop up. Bam. There they go. That's exactly what happens. We're in that time period now. And fortunately, most of those fireballs are caused by little objects, maybe the size of your fist, maybe just the size of a fingertip, maybe just a speck of dust burning up into the atmosphere.

But they are shrouding very large objects that are on that same orbital trajectory which the Earth crosses twice a year. And we should be paying attention to those large objects because we can actually do something about them. And the evidence shows that they did something terrible to the Earth 12,800 years ago, and they changed everything, changed everything. And that is what this Netflix series is all about. That's what Ancient Apocalypse is all about.

It's why it's called Ancient Apocalypse, because that's what it ultimately comes down to. Now, there's masses of material in the series about the possibility of a lost civilization and presenting the evidence for a lost civilization. But ultimately, when you talk of a lost civilization, how did it become lost? What happened that took it away, that obliterated it from human memory? And this apocalyptic episode called The Younger Dryas is the answer to that. The point I often make, which I think is worth making again and again, is how different the world was during the Ice Age. The Sahara Desert was green. It was a fertile place. Nobody's doing much archaeology in the Sahara Desert today. The Amazon rainforest, 5 million plus square kilometers under deep

canopy. Hardly any archaeology has been done there. And yet we know from LIDAR surveys that there are enormous structures under that canopy. And then what about sea level rise? 400 feet sea level rise at the end of the Ice Age. The prime real estate on Earth, 27 million square kilometers, it's about 10 million square miles, were submerged by rising sea levels at the end of the Ice Age. And again, archaeology, there is marine archaeology, but they're not really looking very closely at that. I wonder, Jamie, would it be possible to pull up the diving clip? Is this from Japan? No, this one's actually from Bimini.

We have an episode on Bimini and on the very controversial structure called the Bimini Road. Oh, right. And this is just a little clip from that. My suspicion is humans are a species with amnesia. We have forgotten something incredibly important in our own past. And I think that that incredibly important forgotten thing is a lost, advanced civilization of the Ice Age. I've spent decades searching for proof of this lost civilization at sites around the globe.

Oh, wow. Now, my aim is to piece together these clues. And that seems extremely strange. To show you evidence that challenges the traditional view of human history. challenges the traditional view of human history. You see that? The Bimini Road. The Bimini Road.

It's not even very deep. It's only about 20 feet deep. It was one of the last things to be covered by Ice Age sea level rise, and that's why we show a graphic, a reconstruction of it above water. It's made of extremely regular blocks, megalithic blocks on a very large scale, more than 1,000 feet in length. And when you dive on it, and I've dived on it multiple times,

and I went back to diving in order to dive on it again in this series, it's impossible to believe that it's entirely a work of nature. And I took a marine biologist there with me who's dived all over the world, and he agreed with me that there's just no way that this thing can be explained as a totally natural phenomenon. Can we see it, Jamie? And what is the conventional reasoning for this? The conventional reasoning is that it's just beach rock fractured into natural patterns. But when you get there and get underneath those rocks,

you see that they're propped up, they're leveled out with rocks underneath them, that the whole thing is being very carefully structured by human beings. And the point is, another point I'd like to make is Bimini today is a tiny, tiny island. But Bimini during the Ice Age was part of an enormous island. The whole Grand Bahama Bank was above water. An enormous island. And weirdly, that island turns up on an ancient map. It turns up.

That's not the Bimini Road. But that is on the left. That's the Bimini Road. You've got the cursor on there. Yeah, those are shots of the Bimini Road. Yeah, it's hard to believe that these uniform stones occurred naturally. And how long is this?

About 1,000 feet in length. And it's not just a straight line. It's got a J-shaped curve at one end of it as well. And we know that it's been underwater for about 6,000 or 7,000 years. But the question is, how long before that was it made? How long did it stand there above water at a very prominent point on this ancient island that we now call the Grand Bahama Banks? And one of the mysteries I look into is that on an ancient map, the famous Piri Reis map drawn by a Turkish admiral in 1513. That Grand Bahama Banks as an above water island is shown.

It is featured on the Piri Reis map. And what do you see running down it but an image of the Bimini Road above water. Now how could Piri Reis who drew his map in 1513 have known this? He tells us the answer, that he based his map on more than 20 older source maps, all of which are now lost. And he suggests that those maps had come out of the famous library of Alexandria and that they'd been taken to Constantinople and that's where he got access to them. Somebody, I believe, was mapping the world, was exploring the earth during the Ice Age and left us ancient maps that show features that only existed during the Ice Age. Oh, that's the Orontius Phineas.

No, no. This is Piri Reis. It's on its side at the moment. But down there in the lower left, if you bring the cursor down, that big island down there in the lower left, that island is exactly where the Grand Bahama Banks were, an above-water version of the Grand Bahama Banks during the Ice Age. And that feature running down the middle of it looks very like the Bimini Road to me. It does. Wow. Wow. So again, it suggests not only do we have a cataclysmic event that changes the face of the earth, but also we have evidence that somebody, as yet unrecognized by archaeology,

had the capacity to explore the world and to map the world during the last ice age. One of the things I find most striking is the presence of Antarctica on ancient maps because we didn't discover it until 1820. And yet it's on maps drawn in the 1500s with great detail, which again, were based on much older source maps that have now been lost to us. The astonishing thing is the so-called Pinkerton World Map. I don't know if you can find it, Jamie. Drawn, I think, in 1813 or 1818, based on the latest exploration data at that time. And where Antarctica is, yeah, that one. Keep going right.

That one. That one you've got up at the top there. Yeah, just check that bigger one. It just shows a hole where Antarctica is. Because it was an honest map. Nobody had found it by then. But if you go back to, for example, the Waltzi-Müller world map drawn in 1530 or thereabouts, you find Antarctica is present. If you can find Waltzi-Muller world map, it would be worth taking a look at. Orontius-Phinnaeus. Go for Orontius. O-R-O-N-T-E-U-S. Phinnaeus. F-I-N-N-A-E-U-S. The Orontius-Phinnaeus map. That map shows Antarctica exactly where it should be. And it shows it, there we go, right-hand side,

there's Antarctica at the tip of South America, just south of South Africa. And what did they call it back then? Well, they call it the Southern Land. And it's and it's larger than it is today. But it was larger than it is today. During the Ice Age, Antarctica was a much bigger. Now, what the fuck is it doing on a map drawn in the 1500s, which we know was based on older source maps when nobody knew it existed in the 1500s to me the obvious answer is we are dealing with the fingerprints of a lost civilization that mapped the world and that left evidence of that mapping which ancient mapmakers found and used and incorporated into their maps these maps can be very confusing because they were

trying to mix exploration data from their own period with data from the older maps. But when you look at these maps in depth, they're very, very intriguing. When you go back to what you think are the origins of sophisticated civilization, how far back are we talking? I think that we really... You see the t-shirt I'm wearing stuff just keeps getting older this is my is my motto my kids gave this to me for one of my birthdays it's partly an ironic comment on myself because fuck it I'm getting older I'm 72 now it's partly an ironic comment on myself but it's partly a comment on something else as well, is that as science

progresses, we are finding evidence that the human species is much older than we thought. Go back 25, 30 years, you'll find people telling you that anatomically modern humans didn't exist until 50,000 years ago. Then they found evidence of anatomically modern humans 196,000 years ago. Then in Morocco, they found evidence of anatomically modern humans 300,000 years ago. Then in Morocco, they found evidence of anatomically modern humans 300,000 years ago. Humans just like us with the same brains, the same capacities, the same abilities than us. Once you start extending that timeline back, you're leaving much more room for an advanced civilization to emerge, a civilization that was ultimately destroyed. If you've just got 50,000 years to do it in, it doesn't leave you much space. But if you've got 300,000 years to play

with, there's plenty of space. So bottom line, I think this was a civilization that flourished during the Ice Age, that occupied the prime real estate during the Ice Age along coastlines, and that was obliterated almost completely in the cataclysm of the Younger Dryas. There were survivors. Those survivors left their fingerprints in places like Gobekli Tepe. After the Younger Dryas was over, they then sought to initiate hunter-gatherers into their system of knowledge. So when you're talking about the Nile and we're talking about ancient Egypt,

how far back do you think that goes? I think the Nile goes back a very, very, very long way. The Nile River system 12,000, 12,500 years ago looked much the same as it does today. Actually, Africa suffered much less from sea level rise than many other continents. The place that was most dramatically affected by sea level rise was around Indonesia and Malaysia. Geologists call it the Sunda Shelf. And again, it shows up on ancient maps as it looked during the Ice Age, not as it looks today. There was a continent-sized landmass that went underwater there. If your continental shelves are very shallow, very limited and very deep, then you don't lose a lot of land. But if they're slow and gradual, you lose a great

deal of land. Africa didn't suffer so much. The Nile River system was pretty much 12,500 years ago the way that it is today. The big difference was that the Sahara Desert was green and fertile. And this coincides with Dr. Robert Schock's assertion that when you look at the Temple of the Sphinx, you're dealing with thousands of years of water erosion. Yes, yes. And the last time there was water like that in the Nile Valley was when? The last time you had the water erosion like that in the Nile Valley was precisely during the Younger Dryas. The Younger Dryas was a period of extremely heavy rains in Africa.

And it's rainfall, it's erosion caused by heavy rains that is the enigma on the Great Sphinx. We're not saying that there was a flood came over the Great Sphinx. What Robert Shock is saying and what his evidence clearly demonstrates is that we're looking at what's called precipitation-induced weathering, weathering that was caused by exposure to about a thousand years of extremely heavy rainfall. And Dr. Robert Shock puts that thousand years precisely in the Younger Dryas period. That's the last time that rains of that magnitude fell on Egypt. And it's why we cannot sensibly accept the insistence of Egyptologists that the Sphinx is just four and a half thousand years old. By all means, yes, 2500 BC, the ancient Egyptians were there. But I believe they found the Sphinx already created and already heavily eroded,

and that they then re-carved its head into the head of a pharaoh. And that head, as Robert Shock and others have pointed out, is way too small in relation to the body. That makes sense if it was a heavily eroded lion head, which was then later cut down into the head of a pharaoh. The geology speaks to the original Sphinx being more than 12,000 years old. And that's the funny thing, because when Robert Shock, and let's not forget John Anthony West. John Anthony West, and I know you had him on his show before he passed. John Anthony West was the first person to suggest that there should be a

huge question mark over the Sphinx, that the erosion patterns on the Sphinx suggest it was much older than Egyptologists said, and maybe 12,000 years old. And at that time, the response of Egyptology was, oh, rubbish. The Sphinx can't possibly be 12,000 years old because there's no other megalithic monument anywhere in the world that's anywhere like 12,000 years old. Well, that got blown out of the water completely forever by the discovery of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, which isn't even that far from Egypt. Gobekli Tepe, 11,600 years old, a giant megalithic site. My goodness, if you can make Gobekli Tepe, you can make the Sphinx.

It adds hugely to the credibility of Robert Shock's argument. And I want to pay tribute to Robert Shock because there's a mainstream academic who's been willing to stick his neck out despite taking all sorts of slings and arrows from his colleagues. He sticks with the data and what the data says, regardless of what Egyptologists say, is that the Sphinx is 12,000 plus years old. And Jamie, can you pull up some of the images of that? Because it is really compelling. When you look at the water erosion evidence that is all around the Temple of the Sphinx, it's really fascinating stuff, even for someone who doesn't know much about erosion. But when you look at it through his descriptions and his understanding of the various levels of stone, how some of it is harder and this is the reason why some of it is eroded less. You see it most clearly in the trench surrounding the Sphinx. You see it there.

Those deep vertical fissures are classic precipitation-induced weathering, classic weathering produced by rainfall pouring over the edge of that. You don't see it so much on the body of the Sphinx for a very specific reason, that the body of the Sphinx has been repeatedly restored. Some of those blocks that we're looking at there were actually put in place during the old kingdom, when the Sphinx is supposed to have been made from new. What were they doing restoring the Sphinx 4,500 years ago if they'd just built it? You know, logic needs to be applied to this whole process. And we need to free ourselves from the dogma of the academic mainstream. So if this was all, if this water erosion began thousands and thousands of years ago, thousands and thousands of years earlier than conventional Egyptologists date this era, how old do you think that actual civilization was? Like how far back?

I think it could go back 20,000 years before that. I think it was around all that time. And again, this is a point that I think needs to be made. Archaeologists will tell you that the entire population of the earth were hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age, say 20,000 years ago at the peak of the last Ice Age. Everybody was hunter-gatherers according to archaeologists. But we today live in a world where an advanced civilization, our own, if we dare call ourselves advanced, and in some ways I think we're not advanced at all, coexists with hunter-gatherers. There are hunter-gatherers in the Amazon rainforest.

Some of them don't even know we exist. They've been spotted from aerial surveys. Hunter-gatherers in the Namibian desert. The notion that different types of civilization can coexist on the same planet shouldn't be surprising to us because we do it. And that's what I'm suggesting was the case back then. But a civilization very different from our own. They certainly had technology, enough technology to explore the earth, enough technology to map the earth, very advanced astronomy, knowledge of obscure astronomical phenomena, such as the precession of the equinoxes, such as the obliquity of the ecliptic. I won't go into details, but it's present in ancient knowledge.

There's an amazing book, which I may have mentioned to you before, Joe, a book called Hamlet's Mill. And it was written by two professors of the history of science, Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Deschen back in the 60s. And what that book is dynamite because it shows going back into the oldest myths and traditions of the world, highly advanced astronomical knowledge. Astronomical knowledge that should not have been possessed by hunter-gatherer civilizations. Astronomical knowledge that could only have been accumulated through thousands of years of careful observation and recording of data. That astronomical knowledge is present in the most ancient myths of mankind. And in fact, it was that book, Hamlet's Mill, just as much as my first experience in front of the Great Pyramid that led me to begin asking questions about the narrative of our past. And I think it's healthy that we should have an alternative narrative. And I can't understand why archaeology is so, I have to say, so afraid of alternative narratives. Because if they're

not afraid, why do they react in this way as though we're some kind of existential threat? Why do they block me from getting access to sites if they're not afraid? If they're confident of their position, they should be able to maintain it against all opposition rather than trying to censor other points of view. Now, the Great Pyramid of Giza is probably the most stunning of all these ancient structures. And the stones are immense and some of them were cut from a quarry that's hundreds of miles away. How do you think they did that? Well, some of them, the granite in the Great Pyramid comes from more than 500 miles to the south. If you look at the famous King's Chamber, its walls and its roof, the ceiling of the King's Chamber, are all made with gigantic granite blocks.

Stunning detail. Stunning detail. Those blocks on the roof of the King's Chamber weigh 70 tons each. Those blocks on the roof of the King's Chamber weigh 70 tons each. Now, Egyptologists will tell you that, oh, they could move heavy blocks because they put them on wet sand and they push them along on wet sand. Well, maybe if you're just at ground level, that will do. But when you're 350 feet above the ground as you are in the King's Chamber, that won't do at all. I don't know how they did it.

All I know is they did it. I don't think anybody knows how they did it, how they lifted those stones, how they brought them up to that level. I think we're looking again at a lost technology. And it was this ancient apocalypse 12,800 years ago that wiped that from the human memory banks almost completely, not entirely completely because they were survivors, but removed most of it. Randall will tell you, sea level rise, it creates a powerful high energy zone. Anything that was existing on those flooded coastlines has just been pounded to hell. I mean, talk about it, Randall. Well, yeah. I mean, it's going to be a lot more energetic than now. I mean, imagine your sea level rising at three or four times at least I mean, imagine your sea level rising at three or four times at least faster than we've seen rise in the last century.

And within there, juxtaposed, are these episodes of very rapid sea level rise. So you're talking about a very energetic intertidal zone. And anything that's there, short of large megalithic blocks, is going to be utterly obliterated by the time the process is through. And I think that this is one of the things that, you know, the archaeologists and the prehistorians, people are looking at that, have failed to take into account the severity of these events we're talking about. Because the question always is, where are the artifacts? Where's the pottery where is the the evidence that this civilization existed and i have two responses to that one you don't realize the extent of the the total remodeling of this planetary surface that took place because i mean we could get into some of the stuff here i have tons of images where i think maybe we'll get a

chance to pull up a couple of really awesome drone footage here before we're done but once you begin to wrap your head around this you go really you know it's like imagine that you drop an atomic bomb on a city and it completely obliterates it and then a short while later you drop another one on the same place what's going to be left and then 10 000 years 20 000 years goes by what what's going to be left? And then 10,000 years, 20,000 years goes by, what are you going to find? What are you going to look for? You know, it's going to be just rubble that gets reincorporated just into the geological stratum. And it's going to be very difficult to differentiate, for example, from what's called a conglomeratic rock, which is basically we have just a huge jumble of broken rock cemented together, right? Now within there, there could be all kinds of stuff that's

not even recognized as being artificial in the sense that humans had anything to do with it. The other thing is, is when we talk about these ancient technologies, if we're only looking for a mere reflection of ourselves, we could overlook it completely. Because there is, I think there's evidence that exists now. I mean, some modern researchers whose work has been buried or suppressed, I think we're getting very close to rediscovering some of the things that our ancient ancestors were up to. And maybe this would be worth a whole show in itself. We could dive into this, and I don't want to get into that today.

But what kind of technology is he talking about? Well, I just, I shouldn't really get into that. Get into it. Get into it, Rattle. We got to get into it. Okay, well. We've opened the door, sir. Okay.

Okay. Well, okay. The passing of the HDMI cable. The passing. A sacred moment. Well, there are people out there now who have been working on trying to rediscover that and and and again I don't want to digress too much into this now because I I would really rather be able to give a whole treatment of it that might kind of derail us a little bit from this but there are people who have been working on these things for for decades now basically in secret in. And I've had the privilege of talking to some of

these people over the last six or seven years. And right now, as we're speaking, there's a group of people who are basically going to open source a whole lot of stuff in the next three months, so it can never get suppressed again. And that's why I'd like to come back and talk in more detail. Well, I'd love to have you come back and talk about it, but we've got to talk about it a little bit now. Ah, okay. Well, there's a laboratory right now in the Maldives that's been building prototypes using these technological principles, which are based on implosion rather than explosion.

And the inspiration for this... And Tesla's ideas are part of it, I think you mentioned. Tesla's ideas are very much a part of it. Yes, Tesla's ideas are very much a part of it. So is, I don't know if you ever, Victor Schauberger, who did the work with water and discovered... Yeah, look at... Jamie, could you look up Victor?

Oh, I have the cable now, don't I? Take it back, let me find it. Well, no, no, let me pull something up here. I think the key thing is we're looking at technologies that are not the same as ours. Yes, yes, that's the point. And that's partly why archaeologists can't see them because they're looking for us in the past

and they're not open to the possibility that there are whole other kinds of technology that could be used. I always go back to the ancient Egyptian traditions that speak of priests chanting as these huge blocks were lifted into the air. Were they using some kind of sound effect, some kind of use of sound that was able to manipulate

matter. We know that sound can manipulate matter as a matter of fact, but they're lifting these blocks again and again. It appears in ancient Egyptian traditions. The notion that we could lift huge blocks with sound seems absurd to archaeologists, and yet it's there in the traditions of the Egyptologists. What Randall's talking about now is people who are working on a whole alternative path of technology. And maybe that's a rediscovery of the kind of technologies that were used by a lost civilization. I think that's what's important about what you're

saying is that we have this very limited idea of technology based on what we've experienced. Yeah. But if you had anatomically similar human beings that lived for thousands and thousands of years. Stuff just keeps on getting older. If you think about the amount of progress that we've achieved as modern humans just in the last few hundred years, if you go back 400 years to now,

it's a stunning amount of achievement. Absolutely stunning. And if you have a completely different path of technology, one that's not utilizing internal combustion engines and cranes and the like that we experience today. Leverage, mechanical advantage, everything that our tech is based around. Something that's insanely advanced, tens of thousands of years of a different path. And that may be what we're looking at. And that may begin to explain these otherwise inexplicable monuments that have survived. Jamie, do I need... There we go. This is the work of Nikola Tesla. And he was... Again,

this is way too much for us to get in today that's why we need to devote a whole session to talking about this okay um but this is uh this was the inspiration you know his work was suppressed a lot of his patents were yeah were taken sealed up by the u.s government uh for whatever reason i don't know but this is some of the stuff that's now being developed using his ideas plus some of the others. This is the man I've been talking to for the last seven years. Malcolm Vendal? Yes. And, again, I don't want to get into it today, but, like, here's an example of what they're doing.

This is a generator that has no moving parts. It's all based on geometry, pure geometry. And here's the basic idea, as I think I understand it at this point. Resonance frequencies, everything vibrates. If we had an electric razor, we plugged it in, turned it on, set it on this table. It's gonna move around, isn't it? You ever seen that? Yeah. That's the beginning of the concept because it's vibrating. Everything vibrates at a frequency and if you know that frequency, you can control things. And I think that's the

basic idea of what we're looking at here. And it's all based upon the ancient numbers. And they're developing technologies right now, and they have been. I was recently contacted and given the go-ahead that I could talk. I've been sitting on this for seven years without talking about it, because they asked me not to talk about it until they had their patents in place and their licensing. That's all happened since last summer. So we're now free to talk about it. So that's what I'm saying. I think it would be good idea to get me back on here. We can look at it. I'm going to lay this on Graham so he can look at it too, because I

really want to get Graham's feedback on this. I mean, would it be fair to say that there's an element of a rediscovery of technology from the past? I think it would be fair to say that. Yes. And so through somehow, through this technology, they're able to move stones or cut stones or all the above? All the above. And even transport them? What is all this? Well, this is the model,

and this is diagramming all the frequencies of the elements and what their vibrational frequencies are and the numbers that measure those frequencies and they're all the numbers we get from looking at these ancient traditions that recur over and over and over again that I've been talking about in my sacred geometry classes for decades without knowing what the game the final result was going to be so this this inventor who's working with this small group contacted me, and this is what he told me. He said, you built the foundation.

He said, you laid the foundation with your work on ancient geometry, and I built a house on top of it. That's what he said. So for seven years, he's been supplying me with all the information. I have copies of all the That's what he said. So for seven years he's been supplying me with all the information. I have copies of all the patents. I have videos of the testing of the prototypes and Mazda, the car manufacturer in Japan, is getting ready to do a 25 million dollar testing of some of these prototypes that they believe they can retrofit internal combustion engines with.

And there's over 100, they've developed over 100 patents on some of this stuff. And it's amazing. And what would be the fuel? Well, plasmoids. Plasmoids, as it says here, are donut or toroidal shaped clusters of net protons or net electrons that once captured and placed into a toroidal orbit are capable of absorbing, storing, and releasing enormous amounts of energy within their self-generated and structured electromagnetic containment field. Plasmoids, in effect, function as an atomic battery

that can be self-charging due to its ability to convert matter to available clean energy. So it's a lot to get into, and I think it would take us kind of off what we're here to talk about today. At least what's promising is that there is some at least research or understanding. And it's actually quite mature at this point. And in order to avoid the kinds of fate that befell Tesla and Reich,

Robert Oppenheimer, Victor Schauberger, and so many others that were working in these fields, all kind of converging on this same insight. It's been conducted in secret. The laboratory that they've been developing this is in the Maldives, so that it's been has been that they've been developing this is in the Maldives so that it's been immune from government interference and now I think it's about ready to go the next what is the motivation of the suppressing of this information I think in case of Tesla wasn't it military the fear of military applications I also I also think that you know there are huge corporations that have very large investments in a particular path of technology, which is ours. And for somebody to come up with a whole new path of technology, it's very threatening to them.

And much better from their point of view to suppress it or if they can't suppress it to kind of buy it and hide it and keep things on the track that they're on now. I would say that's the motive. And maybe for people that are curious about this and maybe even skeptical, consider the massive change that nuclear power provided us. Whereas before the 1940s, this was unheard of, even the concept of it. And all of a sudden, now we have nuclear power, nuclear weapons, the most profound power known to man currently. God help us. It's a power for use by adults, but unfortunately, it's delinquent children

who are leading our world right now. The leaders of our planet, the politicians out there, they're just complete assholes. I can't think of any of them who I feel any respect for whatsoever. And it's they who are in charge of this frightening, terrifying technology. We just aren't mature enough as a civilization to manage technology like that. You have to get that level of maturity. And I don't think it's a coincidence

that these people are not psychedelically experienced. Exactly. I've said it on your show and I'll say it again. If I could set the rules, I would absolutely insist that nobody has the right to run for head of state or head of government unless they've had a dozen experiences with ayahuasca. Hear, hear. Let them have those experiences first.

Mushrooms will do the job just as well. A dozen major doses of mushrooms will do the job just as well, lead to that self-examination that we see so little of in our politicians today. And I think many of them would actually decide, actually, I don't want to be a politician anymore. And those who did carry on in that path would be gentler, kinder, and more open to extraordinary possibilities. You know, we did have one president who it's pretty a lot of evidence that he did, in fact, take several acid trips. You know who that was? Who's that? John Kennedy.

Aha. Really? Oh, yeah. You know, he was having multiple affairs in the White House, right? I knew about that. Okay, so one of his affairs was with a woman who was an associate of Timothy Leary. So that's well established. So there's basis to the rumor. That's another reason why they killed him. Could be.

Well, it could be that because of his – because he did really go through pretty much a change of attitude during that last year. But you know what it comes down to is right now everything that's going on in the world is basically about the control of energy and resources. And if there was a way of technology or energy that could do an end run around this idea that we live in a Malthusian reality and we have to have this, you know, fight to the end over who's going to control the energy and who's going to control the resources. It would render our entire foreign policy, our military policy, all of that irrelevant. And from what I've seen about and my evolving opinion about the possibility of there being ancient technology, that if there was an ancient technology, it should be possible

to recover it. Yeah. And what I've seen in the last half a decade or more has initially skeptical, but as I've learned more, you know, gone arduously through these patents and things, I've become convinced that, yeah, there is something here. There's something here, that there are people who have been working on these things. And they would like, my role, as they've requested to me, is these guys are academic scientists, inventors. One of them's a geophysicist. A couple of people that I've met recently who are putting the money up from into this are basically in the energy industry

who have seen the prototypes i had a meeting in september or not september about a month ago october early october um with four gentlemen that are putting the money into this developing these prototypes one of them said to me well when when I first heard this I didn't believe this was possible, but he says I've seen the machines, I've seen the technology work, I'm now convinced. So they're doing, they've done their initial prototypes and now they're going to do this major testing. Mazda, automobile manufacturer in Japan, has come on board and said, you can use our laboratories. And because, of course, what they're thinking is that they may be able to get the end run around all the other competition. And one of the things, and when I come back, we can look into this.

I've got the videos of testing the prototypes, like taking one of the gentlemen that I met with his nephew or son-in-law, mechanical engineer, who took one of the devices and it took four hours. They retrofitted an internal combustion engine because what this device does is it recycles all of the waste products, Heat products, carbon dioxide, everything that's coming out of an internal combustion engine gets captured and recycled and converted back to energy. The initial test showed that the internal combustion engine went from about a 30% efficiency to 80% efficiency.

And this is just the initial prototypes. I can come on your show we can look at the videos I Can show you all of it? I'd love to so they are going to open source all of it within the next few months Around the world so they're looking for venues to put this information out because like Malcolm they're the inventor you saw he says you know this is my legacy and I want the world to have this so if we can please go I was gonna say as you say they've had to keep it secret yeah up till now up till now precisely because of the nature of the world that we that we live in and and I

would say that we live in a system that is very controlling, that works through very clever means to control the way people think. But that the younger generation is beginning to break free of that in exciting ways. And I would say that archaeology, strangely enough, is a very important part of that system of control. If archaeologists can convince us that we are the end product of a long, steady evolution where the apex and the pinnacle of human achievement, then it justifies everything else that goes on in the world right now. Any chance of pulling up the enemy number one clip in a minute? Please, we'll do that. But do you think that they're doing this in cahoots, or do you think they're doing this to protect their own personal interests? And it seems to align with the systems that are currently in place. First and foremost, to protect their own personal interests.

And their own personal interests are to express history the same way that they have always. Yeah. I don't think that there are many archaeologists who are actually out there deliberately lying to the public. I don't think that's happening at all. They're just egotistical human beings. They're just like everybody else. You get invested in a particular line. Yes.

It becomes existentially important to you. It's your identity. It's your identity. And your knowledge defines you. Your knowledge defines you. It's your identity. And your knowledge defines you. Your knowledge defines you. And if others challenge it, your first reaction is self-defense. You've got to defend yourself against this intruder who is attacking you in one way or another. So I don't think that it's a calculated conspiracy in that way.

But I do think that advantage is being taken of it by other powers by the powers that be i mean i don't want to get into the whole covid and vaccine issue too much right now there's a lot i don't know about that but one thing i do know for sure is that the whole covid and vaccine issue has been deliberately carefully used by governments. They've taken advantage of it to inculcate and encourage a habit of obedience in the population that we just kind of automatically say yes. And that's part of the controlling powers in our society fighting back against this tendency to individuality and to thinking for ourselves. And that's why I say we live in the middle of a paradigm shift where things are, we're in struggle right now. And either one side or the other is going to win. But I believe that the force of good is a real force

and that the ability to think freely and think independently that the younger generation is showing is going to triumph in the long run. And what is this enemy number one video? Do we need to pass the sacred HDMI cable again? Well, again, it's just this. I was initially really perplexed by the way archaeologists responded to me. Why would they hate me so much? Why would they be so angry with me? Well, you're an outsider.

And, yeah, I guess that's it. Simply by proposing a different point of view. So it's just another short clip from Ancient Apocalypse. This idea is upsetting to the so-called experts who insist that the only humans who existed during the Ice Age were simple hunter-gatherers. That automatically makes me enemy number one to archaeologists. Why not just say, we don't know, this is a spectacular mystery, and leave it at that?

It's my job to offer an alternative point of view. Perhaps there's been a forgotten episode in human history, but perhaps the extremely defensive, arrogant, and patronizing attitude of mainstream academia is stopping us from considering that possibility. I'm trying to overthrow the paradigm of history. Dramatic. Very, very dramatic.

I was lucky to work with a really top class professional camera team in making this series. And talking about COVID, my goodness. I mean, to make an eight-episode TV series when the world was shut down, the number of quarantines we had to do in places like, you know, Indonesia in order to get this job done. But we powered through and we got it done. And I hope that the series is going to make a difference. I was going to be part of that providing an alternative source of information to people who are fed up with being told what to think

by the so-called experts. No, I'm certain it'll provide a lot of inspiration for people to think differently. Now, the possibility of this technology existing that we're talking about, existing in the past, would this technology be made with metal? Would these engines, these alternative technology engines, and if they were, we really wouldn't find evidence of them today? I think we should be open-minded to a whole range of possibilities.

Exactly. One of the issues that gets me into a lot of trouble with archaeologists is that I think there are latent human abilities which we are not using. I don't know if you've ever had Rupert Sheldrake on your show. So Rupert has done a lot of work on telepathy, real solid scientific work. Just like, why does your dog know when you're coming home you know he did a series of controlled experiments where the owner came home at random different times of day and the dog always knew when he was coming some kind of telepathic message was passing back and forward Rupert Sheldrake has shown that telepathy is a real thing how do we how do we

we're thinking to somebody in the next second the phone rings and it's that person. Things like that. But Rupert has done very thoroughly detailed statistical work on this and shown that it's far beyond chance that this is a real ability that humans have, but that we're persuaded in our society to think does not exist. What about telekinesis, the ability to move objects with the mind? That sounds like Stephen King territory, but maybe we can do it. Again, our society has rested all its faith on leverage and mechanical advantage and a particular path of technology. And we've allowed what I think may be latent human abilities to fall into the abyss and not to be used anymore. So much so that we laugh at ourselves for even

thinking of them. And whenever I mention things like telepathy or telekinesis, I'm not pinning my whole thesis on that. I just think it's something we should be open to. Well, if an ancient civilization were using those innate human abilities that we've forgotten how to use today, there would, of course, be no physical evidence for it whatsoever. That would only be the results of what they did, like those 70 ton blocks lifted 350 feet in the air, covering the roof of the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid. Impossible to explain in terms of leverage and mechanical advantage, but perhaps another explanation is needed.

Peter Robinson Also so profoundly advanced in terms of their ability to move immensely huge objects that it makes you consider in a way where we're talking about, even if we use the conventional dating of 2500 BC, how? How? What was available? How did they do that? How? How? What was available? How did they do that? I've never seen a satisfactory explanation from the Egyptological fraternity as to how this was done.

They keep coming up with multiple theories about how the Great Pyramid was built, and none of them make any sense to me. I've been lucky enough to climb the Great Pyramid five times. I've explored every internal passageway. This thing is just a gigantic mystery in stone. It challenges us to think again about everything in the ancient world. The fact that it incorporates the dimensions of our planet in its key dimensions, that you can take the height of the Great Pyramid and multiply by 43,200, and you get the polar radius of the Earth. You can measure the base perimeter of the Great Pyramid, multiply it by the same number, you get the equatorial circumference of the Earth. I won't

bore you, but that number is not a random number. Anybody who goes into my books will find that it relates to the obscure astronomical phenomenon called precession of the equinoxes. Great Pyramid is almost perfectly aligned to true north within three-ieths of a single degree, 13 acre footprint, six million tons, 481 feet high, and aligned to true north with this incredible precision. I think they're trying to tell us something. The pyramid speaks to our planet. It speaks to this earth. It's aligned to true north. And it's built on a scale that models the dimensions of the earth. And that scale is derived from a key motion of the earth itself. Very, very clever. And again, I try and mention this to archaeologists. They say,

ah, it's just a coincidence. It's just rubbish. That's what they say. And it's such a lazy way to dismiss the data rather than getting to grips with the data and saying, could this really have happened by coincidence or is something going on here? See, there are these key numbers that recur over and over again. We find them in the Vedas. We find them in the Bible. We find them in Mayan traditions. They were in Samaria over and over again. And one of those key numbers, what Bert Graham just said, 43,200. Or, you know, and even in the way we still measure time today, if you think about how do we measure the length of one orbit, one rotation of the Earth on its axis, the meridian lining up with the center of the sun, we've divided that into seconds, right? Minutes, hours. 24 hours is the exact period of the Earth's rotation with respect to the Sun.

Okay, 24 hours times 60 times 60 means there's 86,400 seconds exactly in that period. 400 seconds exactly in that period. On the moment of vernal equinox, the period of time of darkness and of light are exactly equal, 43,200. That number is the scaling ratio of the pyramid. If we were to take the pyramid as it is today on the Giza Plateau, enlarge it by a factor of 43,200, as Graham said, the height of it is literally within a few hundred feet of being the polar radius of the Earth. And in fact, the range of error is within the range of error of our most accurate modern satellite surveys. And when I come back, I could easily demonstrate that. We'll do that. I put together the slides to show exactly how it's done. The geometry of the height, the ratio of the height to the square base

solves the ancient geometric problem of the squaring of the circle because what they've basically done is that this if if you enlarge that pyramid by 43 200 the square base now becomes precisely the equatorial circumference of the earth precisely and just for somebody to say this is just coincidence well if it was one example yeah or two examples no there's dozens of examples like this where you could show that somehow somebody seemed to know something beyond what they've been given credit for. Something that they shouldn't have known at the time that that structure is supposed to

have been built. What we're looking at in the Great Pyramid and many other structures around the world staring us in the face, almost slapping us in the face, is evidence of a lost technology. And yet it's so resisted and so sneered upon by mainstream academia. That's one of the things I really find very uncomfortable about archaeology is the way that they sneer at alternative ideas. You know the fact that I've taken psychedelics? That is used against me all the time by my critics.

Oh, you know, Hancock takes drugs, so you shouldn't listen to anything that he says. That's what I tell my kids. Excuse me. What a lazy way to dismiss an alternative argument just with insults. Yeah, it's silly. It's also like what has he gotten out of those drugs and why are you so dismissive of that?s. Yeah, it's silly. It's also, it's like, what has he gotten out of those drugs, and why are you so dismissive of that? Yeah. Yeah, this, I'm so fascinated by the possibility of this ancient technology existing

and what form it existed in. If they really did have the ability to calculate, as you're describing, and they did it with such incredible accuracy and the way you're laying it out, it's almost undeniable. The possibility of coincidence is far less than the possibility of calculation. Yeah, absolutely. And yet this lazy dismissal is used to keep people locked in a particular framework of thinking. And that's what we're trying to disrupt. We're disruptors. We're contrarians. And I think there's a need for disruptors and contrarians in the world.

No matter how much they insult me, no matter how much they insult Randall, the information that we're putting out there, sooner or later, is going to do some good. How far back do you think this technology goes? You know, I keep pressing this because I want to get an understanding of what's the long end of this. How far back do you think human sophisticated civilization existed? If the conventional idea is ancient Sumer, 6,000 Mesopotamia, 6,000 plus years ago. How far do you think we're talking about? Well, first and foremost, I can't give you absolute facts here. I'm working on my ideas about the past.

I think it's a civilization that went back deep into the last ice age, maybe as far back as 100,000 years into the past. I think it's a civilization that emerged out of hunter-gatherer societies and emerged out of shamanism. You encounter shamans in the Amazon rainforest today who are using ayahuasca. Well, ayahuasca is a miracle in itself. There's, what is it, 100,000 plus different species of plants and trees in the Amazon. You have to put two of them together to create the ayahuasca brew. One of them contains DMT, and the other contains a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. DMT is not orally active.

That's why we have to smoke it in order to get the effect. But what they've done in the Amazon is make it orally active by combining it with the ayahuasca vine, which contains the monoamine oxidase inhibitor that switches off an enzyme in the stomach that allows the gut to absorb the DMT and for it to enter the brain. Now, that is science that we're looking at there. We're looking at evidence of science.

So the notion of science emerging from a shamanistic society makes perfect sense to me. And again, this is where the archaeologists roll their eyes. But science emerging from a shamanistic society makes perfect sense to me. And again, this is where the archaeologists roll their eyes. But when you ask those shamans in the Amazon, where did your ancestors get the knowledge to make ayahuasca come from? I mean, surely it can't have been done by trial and error. When you've got 100,000 different species of plants and trees, you're taking two, neither of which is active on its own, which only work when they're combined together.

How did you arrive at that? And they say, the spirits taught us. How did the spirits teach you? Oh, our ancestors used to use yopo. They took a snuff. That's a DMT snuff. And in the yopo trance, they were taught how to make ayahuasca. So the idea, ludicrous as it may seem to archaeologists, that shamanistic societies can create science seems to make perfect sense to me. And I think the lost civilization I'm talking about emerged out of shamanism.

But it then went further steps ahead than other hunter-gatherer societies. steps ahead than other hunter-gatherer societies. And unlike our civilization today, which is in the process of destroying the last hunter-gatherer civilizations on earth, some members of our civilization, I'm very glad the way the election just went in Brazil, because we need to preserve the Amazon rainforest. It's madness to cut down the Amazon rainforest and turn it into soya bean farms. You know, our civilization today has no respect for nature, no respect for hunter-gatherers, who are people with an enormous store of knowledge of how to survive on this planet. I think that the ancient civilization I'm talking about had great respect for its roots, for its origins in hunter-gatherer civilizations.

And that's why I don't think they contaminated them too much. They stayed away from them and pursued their own path once they'd achieved these levels of technology. You often talk about the use of LIDAR and ground-penetrating radar and how they've uncovered these structures. It's astonishing. The ancient Amazon rainforest was filled with massive civilizations yes absolutely no doubt about it now is it possible that these massive

civilizations were also advanced and through the use of pharmacology the same way we understand how to synthesize dmt and synthesize very psychedelic drugs, that that's how they learn. Yes, it's perfectly possible that there is science in the hunter-gatherer mode of life and that they applied that science. The Amazon is not entirely a natural product. The Amazon is a human-made garden. The trees in the Amazon that produce food are hyper-dominant. That didn't happen by accident. That happened because human beings made that happen. They created this

incredible, we still don't understand it fully today, the terra preta, the black earth, which is immensely fertile, which reproduces its own fertility through bacteria in the soil. There are still patches of terra preta all over the Amazon, and settlers in the Amazon seek them out to plant in. Again, this is evidence of science. There were cities in the Amazon. Populations of 100,000 or more have been now revealed in the Amazon. It was completely different from what we imagine it to be.

And it used to be 7 million square kilometers. About 2 million square kilometers have been cut down by our rapacious, short-sighted, idiotic civilization. But 5 million square kilometers are left, and we're just beginning to get a hint of what's underneath them as a result of LIDAR, this technique like light imaging and detection ranging, which flies, you can fly a plane over a section of rainforest and without damaging anything, you can see what's underneath that rainforest. And what's underneath it is gigantic geometrical structures, huge squares, circles, a circle

surrounded by a square, just enormous, enormous constructions that you would not expect to find hunter-gatherer civilizations having made. And yet there they are in the Amazon. I've had occasion to – this is one of the recent sciences on this. I've had occasion to meet a few billionaires. And I've tried to say to them, if you want to do some good with your money, put it into a major LIDAR survey of the Amazon. Because right now, only a tiny section of the state of Acre in Brazil has been surveyed by LIDAR. And what's come out of there, they're even finding pyramids in the middle of the Amazon. And then once they're found, archaeologists can go to them and have a look at them.

Put some money into a proper LIDAR survey of the entire Amazon, and our whole idea of the past of the human species may change. And that comes back to my point. Five million square kilometers in the Amazon, hardly studied. 27 million square kilometers of submerged continental shelves, hardly studied. Nine million square kilometers of the Sahara Desert, hardly studied. And yet archaeology claims to know the whole story of our past. Ridiculous. They can't know the whole story of the past while so little of the planet remains, so much of the planet remains untouched by archaeology. And why does it remain untouched? Well, partly it's very expensive to go do archaeology in the Sahara or in the Amazon.

And partly because archaeologists are convinced that they're not going to find anything there. Well, LIDAR is breaking that myth. It's showing us that there is something to find in the Amazon. And I would urge any good-hearted billionaire who wants to see some real changes in our understanding of the past to put some money into LIDAR surveys. I know a number of the archaeologists who are doing this, a guy called Marty Partinson, for example, very, very, very important work, but they're doing it on tiny funds. They need more funding in order to survey the whole Amazon. And I think if the whole Amazon is surveyed, it's going to radically change the way we view our past. One of the problems is that both in archaeology and geology is the focus on a very limited, specialized site. You will have archaeologists that will spend a decade excavating one site,

and obviously they're going to know more about that site than anybody far and away. What seems to be lacking, and the same with geologists, you'll have geologists who will spend years examining one site, one geological outcrop, determining the lithologies, the petrology, the sedimentary sequence, the ages, and they can tell you all about that site. What's missing, though, is the big picture. Integrating these different parts and these sites. And really this is where there's room for those who are not super specialized

to come in and try to come up with some kind of a coherent model that can link these sites together into a big picture. The panorama, the grander panorama. I'm thinking of the Al Goodyear. Down at Topper. Yeah, tell a little bit about Al. Well, Al is an archaeologist, and he was,

for a long time, there was a dogma in archaeology, a true dogma, that there were no human beings in the Americas until 13,000 years ago. Let's say 13,400 years ago. And they call them the Clovis culture. And the dogma was called Clovis first, that there were just no human beings here before Clovis. And Arles was excavating a site called Topper, looking for Clovis materials. But then he did what other archaeologists didn't do. They dug below the Clovis lair. And below the Clovis lair... People kept asking him, well, what's below it? What's below it? Yeah.

Yeah. And when he dug below it, he found evidence, more evidence of humans going back tens of thousands of years before Clovis, going back 50,000 years. Like so many archaeologists who've broken the mold and found evidence that confronted the dogma, he was shunned by his colleague. What was this evidence that he discovered? Evidence of human presence in the Americas.

Artifacts. Artifacts, objects, 50,000 years ago. I'm not saying artifacts of a high civilization. I'm just saying evidence that humans were here. This dogma that there were no- Trevor Burrus Spear points. Richard Wagner Yeah, that there were no humans in the Americas until 1313,000 years ago. That dogma locked the archeology of the Americas in a single place for 40 or 50 years. And every single archeologist, Jacques Sainte-Mars at Bluefish

Caves in the Yukon, for example, who found evidence of humans 24,000 years ago. Every one of them suffered. Their research grants were pulled away from them. They were shunned at conferences. They were insulted by their colleagues. But as time passed, they were proved to be right. And this is the important issue. When I was researching America before, I went down to San Diego and talked with the team there who excavated the Cerruti mastodon site.

They think human beings have been in the Americas for 130,000 years. Not 13,000, but 130,000 years. That gives you a lot of time for things to develop here in the Americas. Down in South America, there's a genetic connection between certain tribes in the Amazon and the peoples of Melanesia, of Papua New Guinea. And that connection is not found anywhere in North America. So the old notion, again, it's a dogma that human beings crossed the Bering Straits when they were a land bridge in the north and they traveled down through North America into South America, it may be that the completely opposite is true, that people were crossing the oceans tens of thousands of years ago, settling first in South America and then

migrating north. And it's just very difficult for these ideas to become accepted. But little by little, this is what happens with paradigm shifts. As the new evidence keeps coming in, it becomes more and more absurd to stick to the old idea. Now, if you have human beings in the Americas for 130,000 years, then you have a possibility for an advanced civilization to have emerged right here in the Americas, in North America, in South America. And if that advanced civilization had based itself in the land that we now call the channeled scab lands, there wouldn't be a single thing left of it because of the pummeling massive forces of flooding that tore across that landscape during the Younger Dryas. Now, the prevailing theory of what happened to the civilization

in the Amazon rainforest is disease, right? And that prevailing theory of what happened to the civilization in the Amazon rainforest is disease, right? And that prevailing theory is correct. There was a Spaniard, Francisco de Oriana, who accidentally managed to travel the entire way across the Amazon, across South America in the 1560s. I say accidentally because he was with 20 other guys. They were in a boat and they were going hunting. But they put the boat on the Amazon River and the Amazon River wouldn't let them come back. It carried them, kept on carrying them west and west and west. And finally, they ended up, they started off in Colombia and finally they ended up on the Atlantic coast of South America. Well, on the way through, they observed enormous cities. They observed evidence of high civilizations of

the Amazon. He reported it, but he was disbelieved. It was thought that he was making it up, and it's these new LIDAR surveys that have confirmed that he was absolutely correct. And God knows what else might be found in the Amazon if the work were actually done. So those initial explorers carried diseases? They carried diseases. This is the thing. Oriana encountered thriving, highly populated areas. A hundred years later, all gone, completely gone. Not because of muskets and swords, but because of smallpox, but because of smallpox, primarily because of smallpox and other diseases that were imported from Europe

that the indigenous inhabitants did not have resistance to, just completely decimated those civilizations, almost wiped them completely from human memory. There's no doubt that that biological weapon is the reason for the conquest of the Americas, that it was the diseases that were brought in. And in some cases, those diseases were deliberately spread. But in other cases, it was just an accident of contact. And that's the exact same thing that happened in North America. That's the exact same thing that happened in North America, too. That's how it became so easy for Europeans to conquer, because of the diseases they brought with them.

And it is, you know, I call it the earliest known example of a biological weapon that we're seeing in the story of the Americas. And so much was wiped out. So much memory was wiped out. And then not just the killing off of the people with the diseases that Europeans brought. But the church, the way that the church behaved in the Americas was appalling. The deliberate burning of Mayan codices. In one bonfire, 5,000 Mayan books were heaped up and burnt by some idiot priest. You know, what's he doing there but wiping out the memory banks of humanity? What would we have found in those manuscripts if we'd been able to find them today, if they hadn't been burnt by some religious

fanatic who was convinced that his ideas were the only right ideas and everybody else was wrong? Christianity is responsible for a great deal of harm in this world, and it's time Christians sucked it up and got to grips with that instead of regarding themselves as a paragons of virtue because Christianity has done horrific things down through the ages. Hopefully, it's learned from its experiences. Hopefully. That doesn't seem very likely. But it's been an instrument of destruction of human memory. Yes.

Those who were destroying that human memory, no doubt they fervently believed that they were right. But their belief that they were right doesn't mean they were right. They were wrong. They've deprived us of huge libraries of knowledge which would otherwise be available to us. That's why I call us a species with amnesia, that we have forgotten so much about our own past. And we're in that kind of amnesiac state where we just have a feeling that something's wrong, but we don't quite know what it is. It's one of the more fascinating aspects of being a person today is that we have so much

access to information and that we can find out about these things now that, you know, if you tried to bring these ideas forth in the 1970s, they'd be easily dismissed. Yeah. But now because of LIDAR, because of our understanding of what disease did to North America and what the Christians did, it's a far more compelling conversation. Yeah. And the internet. Yes. Well, I regard the internet as a poisoned more compelling conversation. Yeah. And the internet.

Yes. Well, I regard the internet as a poisoned chalice. There are wonderful gifts in the internet, but there's also terrible problems with the internet. But the one thing the internet has done is it's allowed people to communicate directly with one another. We don't have to go through the middleman, the big newspaper proprietor or the big TV station. We don't have to go through the middleman, the big newspaper proprietor or the big TV station. We don't have to go through the middleman in order to get to people. We

can talk to one another directly and share ideas, hopefully in a fertile way. It's sad that so much of the internet is just filled with hatred and fear and suspicion and people being utterly obnoxious to one another. But nevertheless, I'd rather have it than not have it because it's opened up so many doors of inquiry that would otherwise remain closed. I like to think, you know, when I was born, mid-20th century, we had zero presence in space, no satellites. We'd never put up a single satellite, right? We're in a position now where we can really begin to perceive things on levels that a few generations ago were inconceivable both on the microscopic and certainly we know how important the microscopic realm has

been my god yes you know when we start talking about nanodiamonds and microspherals and all of this and in being able to demonstrate that these great catastrophes have happened um i kind of use the analogy of fingerprints, which I borrowed from Graham, but fingerprints, you know, on a crime scene, you don't really see those without technological enhancement. Footprints, on the other hand, you can see them. They're obvious. They're, you know, footprints in the ground. So I kind of look at the channel scablands. Those are obvious footprints on the global landscape that are unambiguous, right? Then on the other hand, the microspherals, the nanodiamonds and the things like that,

those are the things that you can't see without the technological enhancement, without scanning electron microscopy or energy dispersive. Can I just butt in there to elaborate on the nanodiamonds? This is one of the reasons we know that there was a series of air bursts and bits of a comet that hit the earth 12,800 years ago. Because all around the world, there is a layer in the soil. You can go down to Murray Springs in Arizona. There's a draw that was cut by floods there. And along the side of the draw, you can see a line in the earth about the width of a human hand. And that is the Younger Dryas boundary. And it's full of what are called impact proxies, things that could only be

created by the massive heat and shock of an impact of an object from space. And those include nanodiamonds, these tiny diamonds, which we would not see without high-level tech allowing us to see down into the minuscule world. That's it. That's Murray Springs. That's the Younger Dryas Boundary layer at Murray Springs. Which one's the layer? The dark layer.

There's better shots of it, but it's that dark layer. It lands all along the side of the springs. And for the series, we went there with Alan West from the Comet Research Group, and he explained to us exactly what's going on here. And that's the first clues that led them to believe that we're dealing with a comet impact 12,800 years ago. And I don't want to misuse that word. It's not a single object. It's multiple objects.

It's a swarm of objects. those objects hit all around the world they hit in north america but they also hit in syria interestingly there's a site called abu herrera which is very near to gobekli tepe in syria which was hit by what they believe was an airburst of a fragment of a comet. If we go back to 1908, June 1908, many people will know that an event took place in Siberia. It's called the Tunguska event. Interestingly enough, that date, June 1908, is one of the two periods in the year, June and November, when the Earth passes through the taurid meteor stream. And what happened there was that an object that's estimated to have been about 100 meters in diameter blew up in the air over Siberia.

It flattened 2,000 square miles of trees. It was an uninhabited area. Nobody was killed. But if that had happened over a major city, it would have been cataclysmic. And that was just a small bit. And it left the same traces in the soil, the same nanodiamonds, the same evidence of... Another really intriguing thing is melted quartz. It takes temperatures of 2,000 plus degrees centigrade to melt quartz. And you find melted quartz all over this Younger Dryas boundary layer. You find iridium, another substance that can only come in with asteroids and comets from outer space. So the evidence is mounting.

The evidence is building. And the team of scientists at the Comet Research Group, as I mentioned earlier, they've just now got some major funding. We are going – and again, I talked about that happy billionaire who I would like to see put some money into LIDAR surveys in the Amazon. I'd like to see them put some money into the Comet Research Group as well, because they've funded themselves all the way along now, but now they've got some major funding. We're going to see some huge breakthroughs in that field. And it doesn't matter how much other scientists dislike what they're doing, they are giving us the data. The data ultimately is what matters, not people's opinion. And the data speaks to a gigantic worldwide apocalypse 12,800 years ago.

Trevor Burrus Jamie, can I have the sacred cable back? James Jacobson I have to pee. So let's pause and we'll come back and get back to this. Trevor Burrus Sounds good. James Jacobson We're back. Okay, we're back. Trevor Burrus Are we back? James Jacobson Yeah. Here we go. Okay. Trevor Burrus Oh, there we go.

All right, so this is just sort of a graphic I put together to show the torrid meteor stream. And this is based, there's two ellipses here, which goes back to the work of Fred Whipple way back in the 1940s, who was the first one to realize that the torrid meteor stream was the byproduct of this ongoing fragmentation of an original giant comet. Because what he was able to do when he did this succession of photographs is he was able to run the orbits in reverse. And once he did that, he could see that these separate pieces within the stream all converged on the same point in space, which told him that they were once one object. But anyways, what we've got here is, you'll notice here's orbit of Mercury. I should get my glasses here.

Orbit of Venus, and then this third ring here is the orbit of the Earth. The green arrows show the direction of the orbit, so here's the orbit of the Earth. The green arrows show the direction of the orbit. So here's the orbit of the Earth. And here is the green arrows again show the direction of orbit of the stream. And you can see that the Earth's orbit crosses the stream late June, early July, right here. And then again, it crosses the stream around now, November, late October, early November. And this has led the torrid stream to sometimes be referred to as the Halloween meteors. Because they peak right around Halloween. Okay, so what was the date of Tunguska? June 30th, 1909.

Yes. So the timing was perfect. night yes so the timing was perfect the other the other thing was that the position where the meteor emanated from space was perfect because you can see that as the stream comes around the sun if you're here on the earth and you're looking up the stream the pro and here was the problem why the the object wasn't seen until the last few moments is because you had to almost look directly into the sun. And that's why people, some of the eyewitnesses described that it looked like the object was born out of the sun or that the sun split in two and this fiery object came and exploded. You know, it didn't, here's an important point,

it did not hit the ground. It was an airburst. It was an airburst. And a lot of what we might be talking about with the Younger Dryas would be airbursts. I just did a whole presentation on October 30th talking about the universal observance of the festival of the dead and its connections with the torrid meteor stream. It's a very fascinating

presentation. If somebody wants to learn more about this you can go on my website you can download it. What's the website? Randallcarlson.com. Okay. Okay. So when you're here, when you're here, you're looking up towards the sun. But when you're looking upstream here, you're looking out into space directly towards the Pleiades. Very important constellation across the ancient world. Yes. And the Pleiades in traditional astrological context is the shoulder of the bull, Taurus the bull. And you can go back and there's lots of mythologies about, you know, the Epic of Gilgamesh, where the Gilgamesh and Enkidu do battle with the bull of heaven. And that's why it's called the Taurid meteor stream because it appears to emanate

from the region of space in which the constellation of Taurus is. It's not coming to us from Taurus, but it looks like it is. It looks like it is. Right. So, yeah, this is the general idea right here. You've got a radiant. The meteors are actually coming in in parallel lines. But when you look upstream, they're all emanating from a point in space. So all meteor streams get their name from the constellation that they appear to be coming from. So the Leonids, obviously Leo.

The Geminids, Gemini. Orionids, Orion. Exactly. The Taurids, Taurus. So we won't get into this a whole lot. That Tunguska event, you had some calculations on the size of the event. Yes, the power of that event has been estimated based upon the destruction of the old-growth Taiga forest. They were able to estimate how much energy, and the equivalent of that was about a 15-megaton hydrogen bomb. Now, how do you wrap your head around what a 15-megaton

explosion would look like? Well, I got a graphic here that actually is an artist's depiction of what a 15 megaton explosion over a major city would look like. There we go. Oh, Jesus. That is a 15 megaton explosion. Now, Tunguska was one object. It was about 150 feet in diameter. Moving it a couple of tens of thousands of miles per hour. So it's got this tremendous amount of potential energy.

It comes in so fast that the atmosphere can't move out of the way. The atmosphere piles up in front of it, becomes like a solid, like a brick wall, and the object exploded maybe five miles up. Devastated. Like Graham said, it was 2,000 some square kilometers, about 825 square miles of old-growth Taiga forest got completely obliterated. Now, if you want to try to wrap your head around what happened during the Younger Dryas, think a couple of thousand of these. It would have been like an all-out nuclear war. And it's left its traces all over the planet, everywhere we've looked, in fact. Yeah. And this happened many times for a thousand years? I think there were multiple impacts. It's clear that there was a peak of impacts 12,800 years ago. I personally think, and this is not the Comet Research Group point of view,

but I think it was another series of impacts 11,600 years ago that brought the Younger Dryas to an end, and quite possibly an impact in a major ocean that led to the global warming with a huge cloud of water vapor thrown up into the air. That's actually not my thesis. I've adopted it, but it's the work of Sir Fred Hoyle, a leading astronomer back in the 80s, who suggested that. That there were the 1,200 years of the Younger Dryas was 1,200 years of continuous cataclysm. And it was on an enormous scale. And the reason the Tunguska event matters is because it happened pretty much in our time. It happened in 1908.

It tells us that we're still in interaction with the torrid meteor stream, that it's not a distant and unimportant danger. It's a real and present danger. If that object that exploded over Siberia in 1908 had exploded over a major city, we'd all be paying very close attention to the torrid meteor stream today because the results would have been absolutely catastrophic. But then, as Randall says, take that back 12,800 years ago. Look at the massive bombardment that took place then. Evidence as far west as the west coast of America. Evidence as far east as Syria, you're looking at a worldwide event, thousands of airbursts, huge numbers of objects coming in, some of them hitting the North American ice cap physically, some of them actually exploding in

the air. The end result fully explains how we could have lost a whole civilization from the record. explains how we could have lost a whole civilization from the record. Wow. That's so compelling and so based on evidence. Yeah, it is based on evidence. And again, it's evidence that largely, unfortunately, is being ignored. And often when I talk about this, I'm told don't be a fear monger. Don't spread fear. But actually, I don't want to spread fear. I want to spread awareness because we're not helpless. That's one of the good things about our tech. We actually have reached a level where we can do something about dangerous objects that the Earth is interacting with in space. In fact, that has been done recently for the first time.

Yes, for the first time. Yeah. That pushing an asteroid just slightly off course is now, we now know that that's a practical possibility. That's all you'd need to do with the dangerous objects in the torrid meteor stream. But it would require a combined effort of all the advanced cultures on Earth today in order to bring that about. It would be a big project, but it would be a worthy project.

And I can think of many unworthy projects that the big nations are investing in at the moment, which we really don't need. This would be one that would be really rather useful. Yeah, wouldn't it be better to cooperate and come up with a way of defending this planet? And see, you talk to some people about this, and they kind of consign it to the realm of science fiction. But clearly, I mean, just a couple of days ago, a new asteroid was discovered within the orbit of Venus

that had been completely invisible, and it was huge. Now, it's not Earth-crossing, but I think we mentioned this. The last time I was on here, you remember, I went through this whole series since the late 1980s showing the near misses that have occurred every few months. Over and over again, I showed that on your show the last time I was here. Those are real. Those are real. And sooner or later, I mean, they're out there now that have our planet's name on them.

Our name and our number. We just haven't discovered them yet. I mean, the estimates now of potentially dangerous Earth-crossing asteroids is maybe 10%. Of what's actually out there. Yeah. And that's why I think we're not only dealing with a lost civilization of the past. We're also dealing with a potential lost civilization of the future. And if that happened to us, one of the big problems with today's information is it's stored on hard drives.

All gone. All gone. All gone completely. And another big problem is that the majority of people in the advanced industrialized so-called civilizations don't have a clue about how to survive. Right. I know you do. Barely. But you've developed some skills, but I don't have a clue about how to survive. I know you do. Barely. But you've developed some skills, but I don't have those skills and most of us don't have those skills to survive. Who would we take refuge with if our civilization went down?

We would have to take refuge with hunter-gatherers because hunter-gatherers are absolutely the masters of survival. And I think that's what happened 12,000, 11,000 years ago. The survivors of a higher civilization, I don't like the word higher, but a different kind of civilization, took refuge amongst hunter-gatherers

and created projects like Gobekli Tepe, which were used to instruct and to teach and to bring in something new. We have two episodes in Turkey in my series. One episode is all about Gobekli Tepe, but Gobekli Tepe, 11,600 years old, isn't alone. There's another site we were the first film crew to get into called Karahantepe, which has now been excavated.

Dates from the same period. It's the most extraordinary and amazing site. Nobody knew it was there until a decade ago. Furthermore, they found another 11 sites, all of them in a ring around Gobekli Tepe, all of them intervisible from one another because they're on hilltops. They've discovered them, but they haven't yet been excavated. It's fascinating that they all date to this period of 11,600 years ago. Another thing that we do in another episode of the series is we look at the so-called underground cities of Turkey. This is quite a famous phenomenon in Turkey, that there are huge cities. They look like

ant farms on an enormous scale that are dug out under the earth. Hundreds and hundreds of rooms that huge efforts was put into digging deep beneath the earth and creating these shelters. And archaeology does not have a good explanation about what they're there for or why they were built or when they were built. They're all cut out of stone. You can only date objects that were left in them. You can't say when they were actually made. What makes sense of those underground cities to me is that they were built as places of refuge that people could go into

during an episode of meteor bombardment during the Younger Dryas, because there wasn't just the one 12,800 years ago. There were multiple episodes over the next 1,200 years. It makes sense that these underground cities were built as places of shelter, not as places to hide from an invading army. The last place you want to go if you have an invading army is to go hide underground. All they have to do is block up the entrances. They don't even have to fight you, you know. But if you're dealing with a periodic event, which will be over in a couple of weeks, they're great places to retreat into. The evidence is all around us, all around the world. And that's why I've made this series, because I want to show people that it's not just a single thing. There's a huge story here. When they date objects that they find in these underground cities, what are the dates they

find? The oldest, they actually have no idea. They were used by Christians. They were used back in 2,000 plus years ago as homes in some cases. There's some evidence that they, going back 2,800 years, but it's all from objects found inside them. And those objects don't tell us when the original work of cutting out these enormous structures, and it took an enormous will to create them. And those objects don't tell us when the original work of cutting out these enormous structures, and it took an enormous will to create them. There's not just one. There's dozens of them. Can we find those, Jimmy? Oh, I'm sorry, Randall, you got the... Oh, pass the sacred cord. Or maybe you could find them. Yeah, I could. Derinkuyu, for example. What's the name of the place? D-E-R-I-N-K-U-Y-U.

Got it right there. What's the oldest object they find in there? 2,800 years plus. Whoa, look at this. Cross-section is just amazing. I spent hours down there just wandering around and looking at this amazing place. And it makes no sense to me. And it's carved into stone.

Yeah, it's cut literally out of the bedrock beneath the ground. There, you can see a cross-section on the left there. Far left? Yeah. Wow. You know? These are a huge mystery. And the fact that objects have been dated to certain periods does not tell us when they

were used. Every new culture that went in there would have removed most of the stuff that was in there before. But when you ask yourself what was the motive for creating something like this, the motive is clearly to hide from a danger from above, in my view. That's incredible. Yeah. The most remarkable places.

And they can be visited. The two that I visited in the series are Derinkuyu and Kaimakli. And these two sites are joined by an eight-kilometer tunnel underground. Eight kilometers. Eight kilometers. Wrong. Which joins the two of them. Dug out of stone. Dug out of stone, the whole thing. Wow.

How long would it take to complete something like this? Well, it would take a very long time indeed, that's all I can say. Nobody's really done the calculations. And that one shows a vent to the sky? Yep, they have vents to the sky to allow air to come in. But you have to consider, if you've got 10,000 or 15,000 people in there, they can't really stay in there much longer than about two or three weeks, which is about the time it takes to pass through the torrid meteor stream.

Otherwise, you're going to get a huge amount of human refuse built up inside these. They're going to become inhospitable places. But if they're only to be used for two weeks at a time, then they're fine. They have air vents. They have water. They're incredibly well thought out. There's water in there or they store water in there? They store water in there. Yeah. And down below it, you drill deeper and you come to wells. That's incredible. Look at the sophistication of the construction too. Yeah, yeah. So we're looking at a series of mysteries that are unexplained by archaeology

or that are explained in unsatisfactory ways. And what I've tried to do is to offer alternative explanations that make some kind of sense of the anomalies that we're looking at. There are just too many anomalies that are not explained by the mainstream theory. And that's when you get a paradigm shift, when you get to the point where the mainstream theory just won't explain stuff anymore, just like Clovis first eventually had to be thrown out by American archaeologists. They just couldn't keep on with that fantasy any longer because the evidence spoke to a human presence far older than 13,000 years ago. It's beginning to happen now with the

Yunga Dryas impact and the events of the Yunga Dryas. But as you begin to grasp the magnitude of these things, when you start talking about the tremendous earthworks of North America, of which only a small fraction still exist, the structures in the Amazon, which to me was the most incredible part of America before. Thank you. I kind of was getting the gist of it. But when I read that, I'm like, oh, wow. Because here was – I had studied considerably in-depth into the North American monumental earthworks, have visited most of the extant ones that still remain, very impressive, and then find out there's even a greater magnitude in South America, in the Amazon. That was mind-blowing to me.

And many of them unexplored. Most of them unexplored. magnitude in South America, in the Amazon, that was mind-blowing to me. And many of them unexplored. Most of them unexplored, just identified on LIDAR. Very few have been explored. And very little of the surface has been explored even by LIDAR. Absolutely. It's a tiny fraction, 2% maybe, maybe less than that. So when you look at the magnitude of these extraordinary building campaigns, you got to go, why? There had to have been a motive. There's such an incongruity there between the idea of hunter-gatherers or even subsistence farmers undertaking projects of such enormous

magnitude. To me, there's just a disparity there that just, there's a disconnect. The so-called mound builder culture of North America has been hugely underestimated and not given the priority it deserves. That's why we devoted one episode of this series to the mound builder sites in North America, to Serpent Mound, to Poverty Point in Louisiana. Fantastic site. The thing that's not realized is that the vast majority of what stood here 600 years ago has been destroyed, turned into farmland, plowed under, just wiped away in that process of making us a species with amnesia. It happened very much in North America, but the few sites that are left speak of enormous sophistication, and the horizon keeps on going back and back and back.

So Poverty Point in Louisiana, fantastic site, very large scale, enormous pyramidal structure there. And dated to about 2,700 years ago, but it's directly connected to another site, Watson Break, which is just a mile to the south. It's lined up perfectly with Watson Break. The two sites are anchored to one another. Watson Break goes back 5,300 years ago. There are other sites that go back 8,000 years ago. And these are just the ones that have survived. I think that mound builder culture, as it's called in North America, goes back deep into the Ice Age as well. We're looking again at a mystery that we only have fragments of it to try and draw conclusions from. But those fragments speak to a majesty in the past of North America that has been largely ignored. And part of the reason that it was ignored was that in the process of settling North America,

it was felt useful to diminish the achievements of those whose lands were being taken over, to regard them as inferior in some way rather than superior. But when you look at the works of their hands, you see that superior people were definitely involved in North America and that they have a very ancient culture, which has been, you know, sadly, sadly unrecognized. And again, with the destruction caused by the Younger Dryas impact theory, most of it would be gone.

Well, absolutely. The effect of that cannot be overestimated. The scale of the flooding across North America in the four or five hundred miles south of the ice cap, roughly the ice cap went. Absolutely wrecked. Anything that was there that would speak to our past was destroyed by nature, completely destroyed before other human beings came along and destroyed it further. And I just think it's important that we allow alternative voices to speak out. And that's one of the things that I I really appreciate about your show Joe because you have a you have a major platform you reach a major audience and what you're doing is you're allowing alternative voices to speak out

a lot of people misunderstand what you're doing but what you're doing is actually allowing voices that had been suppressed to speak out and thus provide the general public with more options with more to think about than they had before. And I really appreciate that. Can I play one more from the show? Sure, please. Do we need to pass the sacred cable again? Here we go.

Here we don't go, as the case may be. And that's the one called, it begins with the word Joe. Joe, you very kindly appeared in my series, and I'm grateful to you for that. Oh, my pleasure. It's my honor. I'm so excited that this is a thing. Yeah, well, so am I. I just hope that it has the impact that I believe it will.

There's people that come along, and because of their impact, it changes the way people look at things. Graham Hancock is a man who, despite all of the insults and all the people disparaging his work, he has trekked on and on and on. What I care about is learning the lessons of the past in order to clear away that fog that surrounds prehistory. And it's a fog because there's no documents.

We have to build our picture of the past from fragmentary evidence. Yay. Yay. Yay. There's huge forces at work that would like this to be shut down. Archaeologists are already complaining to Netflix and saying this show should never be put on the air. Hancock, you know, has to be kept silent, basically. They say that I'm misleading the public. I think the public are intelligent enough to make up their own minds. Well, I would invite those people to come on here and talk with

you. Yes, I would love to. I think that would be fascinating. I would love to do that. It would be fascinating to see their argument about the Younger Dryas Impact Theory, about all of this, because it seems so compelling and so overwhelmingly evidence-based. Absolutely. It would be a great debate to have. Very few archaeologists are willing to debate with me. That's what I was going to say. I think you'd have a hard time getting some of them to come on here. They will make excuses like they won't lower themselves to engaging about such ideas.

Or giving him a platform. That's my favorite one. That's the one they use a lot. Too late. Is that coffee? Sure. get in there, buddy. Just a little shot, a couple inches maybe. Alright, you got it. That'll do.

Thank you. It's really been fascinating to be a fan of your work, to get to know you, and you were one of the very first guests that we ever had. Joe, we go back a long way. Yeah, because you were one of the very first guests that wasn't just a comedian, like go back a long way. Yeah. Because you were one of the very first guests. It wasn't just a comedian, like a friend of mine. Right. And I was so excited about that episode that we did with Duncan Trussell. Yes, that's right. And Duncan and I

have always followed your work. We've both been giant fans of yours, but it's so interesting to see it becoming more and more accepted. And because of all the work with the Younger Drives Impact Theory, now substantiated by real hard evidence. Yeah, that's very encouraging to me too, because I take a lot of flack and a lot of insults for what I do and for what I say. And what's happened little bit by little bit is the evidence has come in, which doesn't allow those critics to say what they... They still say it, but they can't say it with any authority anymore. Gobekli Tepe just destroyed the argument that the Sphinx can't be 12,000 years old. The Younger Dryas impact hypothesis destroys the argument that there was no cataclysm 12,000 years ago. There's just more and more evidence coming out, and I

think we're going to see much more of it in the future. Yeah. coming out, and I think we're going to see much more of it in the future. Yeah. Why don't you mention the Cosmic Summit? And we have, yeah, we have a conference coming up next year, which is going to be called the Cosmic Summit, and I think it's in June. Asheville, North Carolina. I'll put it up on my website, which is grahamhancock.com. It'll be on mine as well.

It'll be on yours as well. Oh, there it is. Look at that. There it is. That's, yeah, June 16th to 18th, 2023. It'll be on mine as well. It'll be on yours as well. Oh, there it is. Look at that. There it is. That's, yeah, June 16th to 18th, 2023. Scroll up there, Jamie, so I see who's on there with you guys. Oh, Jamie Corsetti, who's been on the podcast before as well.

Keep going. I think we can find her. There's some. Johanna James. Alan West is going to join us. We're having, that's one of the good things about this. We're having a number of the scientists from the Comet Research Group who are going to join us and speak at the event. So it's going to be a mixture of outsiders, alternative thinkers like ourselves, and mainstream scientists who are proposing this new science.

Yeah, Tankersby, I saw his name. Yeah, Keith Tankersby. West, yeah, Moore. Yeah. I'm not familiar with Collins. But these are all leading scientists who are involved in- Oh, he's, yeah, Tal Al-Aman. That's him, yeah. Involved in the research behind the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.

Can you go back, Jamie? Go down. Stop. Go down. This is somebody, Lieutenant Colonel Lohmeyer. I would like you to get him on your show. Okay. He's, well, you can read about him right there. him on your show. Okay. He's, well, you can read about him right there. Former commander of the U.S. Space Force, Air Force Academy graduate, fighter pilot, relieved of his duties in 2021 for writing a book encouraging the reform of the U.S. military. He's an awesome dude. And he would absolutely love to have a conversation with you. I would love to. What was his, He would absolutely love to have a conversation with you. I would love to. What was his – what did he – that book that he wrote that relieved him of his duties? He was basically exposing the wokeness that was infecting the military, the political correctness and the wokeness.

And they spent millions of dollars training this guy and then they dismiss him because he was telling the truth about what's happening, this guy and then they dismiss him because he was telling the truth about what's happening how the military has become becoming a political tool which it's not supposed to be it's of course yeah and he's a he's a he's a a good man and he's going to be joining us you'll meet him and what is he i have not met him what is he speaking about on this? I think he's going to – well, before all this pandemic stuff hit, he contacted me. I think he heard me on your show. I think that's where he – so he contacted me. He was based, I think, in Huntsville, and he was about to assume, like, second in command of the Space Force. In fact, there's a video where Matt Lohmeyer is meeting with, he's got the whole, pull up, Jamie, pull up Matt Lohmeyer, Donald Trump. And there's a video where he's got the whole Space Force behind him.

He's meeting with Donald Trump talking about the mission of Space Force. behind him, he's meeting with Donald Trump talking about the mission of Space Force. Well, he contacted me and said that he was very interested in the idea of planetary defense. And he said there was a group within the Space Force that saw that as being a part of their mission. So he had set up, I was going to go and do a presentation to the base commanders of the whole Space Force on planetary defense and the need for planetary defense. And then the COVID hit. So then that got derailed. Then he reorganized a second possible presentation. And the dates of the venue and everything was set.

And then he got the boot because his book came out. And I think he went on uh maybe he was on tucker carlson maybe uh talking about his book and the wokeness in the military and like within a week he'd been given the boot so that's i think he's going to be talking planetary defense against asteroid cancel culture what cancel culture yeah What? Cancel culture. Yeah, cancel culture. This is one of the sinister aspects of our society today. Yeah. It's bizarre how effective it is. It's incredibly effective in shutting down alternative voices. And as though our governments behave as though citizens who are adults are not adults, that they're children, that they can't

make decisions for themselves. We have to respect the intelligence of the man in the street. Present everybody with all the information and let them make up their own minds. Let's not censor information before it gets out there. And the fact that this happens to me in archeology is just a tiny slice of what's happening all over the world today, that there's a narrative which is being forced down the throat of the public and alternative views are being shut down very, very carefully. But the truth will out. Yes, I do believe the truth will eventually come to the surface. But it's basic human nature, right? I mean, when the people have control of information, they want to retain control

of information and the dissemination of that information. And when you look at people who go into politics, why do they even choose to do that? Because they want to control others. That's the nature of their personalities from the outset. And we need less of that. In my view, we need much less government. Government is the most unhealthy thing. Next to religion, governments are amongst the influences in the world that are causing

so much chaos and so much misery in the world and are spreading hatred and fear and suspicion all the time. We don't, we should have reached the stage where we're able to lead ourselves, where leaders should be really just working for us, not dominating and controlling us. We need to reach that stage fast if we're going to move forward as a human species, because right now, the leadership of this planet is just full of shit from beginning to end. Well, the only thing that gives me hope about that is the resurgence of the interest in psychedelics.

Yes, me too. And that the more people embrace that and the more people have these experiences, the more people will start to gradually understand that that really is the only way out of this. Yeah, yeah. First of all, because of the experiences they will have, which will definitely alter the way they think. And secondly, because it is an assertion of the right of adults to make decisions over their own bodies and their own experiences. This is what's so fundamental to it. That's why it's a real liberation struggle that is going on around

psychedelics. It's not a trivial issue. It's a very, very major issue. And it's a sign of the world that we live in that governments have attempted to shut down adult access to psychedelics for so long. But the new evidence is coming out that just doesn't allow that to happen anymore. And this is why I think it would be valuable to talk to Ben Johnson about his work. This is why I think it would be valuable to talk to Ben Johnson about his work. And he's got an interesting story. I won't try to get into it. But other than the fact that, you know, when I asked him, how did you manage to get licensed?

You know, how did you manage to pull this off? And he said, well, I went in with like a dozen of my SEAL buddies into a variety of congressmen's office. And we basically walked in and said, you're going to do this. And they couldn't back down. Not when you've got a dozen Navy SEALs sitting in your office saying, you're going to do this. Because they've had the experiences. Yes. And tremendously benefited by their experiences. And tremendously benefited by their experiences.

Well, it's a crazy aspect of the military and war that we expect these people to have these insane, violent experiences overseas and then come back and just integrate into society. Yeah. How can they possibly do so? How can they? With very little guidance. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, that needs to change.

And I think, you know, what he's doing is going to be a big factor in that. So many things need to change. And, of course, the legalization of it is only as far as, like, medicinal use. It's not going to be for recreational use. But even that. But even that. Yeah. I mean, that's how marijuana got started.

Yeah. Exactly. That's one of the great things about America. It's something that I really appreciate. Living in Britain where everything is decided centrally by central government, it's nice to see in America that states, the inhabitants of individual states, can make up their own minds and can alter and change laws and take their power back to themselves.

It's one of the things that I most appreciate about America. Everybody, Canadians get annoyed with me and they say, look, cannabis is legal across Canada. And it is. And that's true. And that's great. But that was a government decision. What's needed, what's happening in America is people are taking their power back. And if they're taking their power back over their own bodies and their own health and their own consciousness, then the next step is to take their power back in lots of other ways as well.

Well, that's the fear. And that's why there's so much resistance to this idea. And that's why there's so much of a power reach by the federal government because they don't want that. They don't want that, no. That is a slippery slope. They want people to be passive yes men and women who don't ever argue with them. And the evidence you see that is what you're talking about, this forced compliance during COVID. with them. And the evidence you see that is what you're talking about, this forced compliance during COVID. Historically, governments have taken advantage over whenever there's a big

situation where some sort of a disaster or national tragedy to grasp more power. Exactly. And it's happened here. And as I said earlier, to deliberate calculated strategy to encourage a habit of obedience so that it becomes habitual to obey. And, you know, whatever COVID is, whatever it is or it isn't, however it came about, whatever its cause and origins were, the one thing's clear. It's been used to encourage obedience and it's been used very cleverly to encourage obedience. And we do not need to be obedient to these monsters who are running the world. We need to change things and bring the normal everyday citizen back into the dialogue. I think one thing that's encouraging about the response to COVID was that the downside of it was this encouraging of obedience. But the

the downside of it was this encouraging of obedience. But the encouraging thing about it to me is that so many people are recognizing what happened now. And so many people are far more distrusting of the government narratives and the medical industry and the pharmaceutical industry. And that they've realized that they've been used for profit. have been used for profit and that this narrative has shifted into fear mongering specifically designed to get more profit. Yeah. I think the – like Graham said, I think the government and those in power want a flock of obedient sheep. But I think it's time now for the lions to exert themselves. Yeah.

That's my perspective. And how we do this, maybe it starts state by state. We get governors in places who will stand up to the federal government and say, no, you're not going to impose your mandates on us. We could govern ourselves. I think that's where it starts. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think there's a lot of encouragement about the way people are discussing things today. That seems to me there's a lot of very reasonable people that have actually changed their perspective over COVID. They had a narrative in their mind about the role of the federal government.

And then seeing it kind of running amok over the last few years, they've realized, oh, this is a dangerous trend. And if this continues, you're going to have some sort of a centralized digital currency. You're going to have a social credit score system. And when that happens, we're fucked. Totally fucked. Yeah. That's not a world we want to go into. No.

We need to stop it now. And there's people saying that that's the only way we're going to compete with China, which is crazy. Like, no, that's not true. Yeah, exactly. It's not true. That's what separates us from China. It separates us from all governments that are controlled by dictators.

Exactly. Is that we have freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, freedom to debate ideas and to propose alternative ideas, and freedom to live your life the way you want to live. Absolutely. That's the beautiful thing about states' rights. Yeah, it is. It is.

And it's exactly that issue that I'm up against with archaeology and the past. Just as I would like people to – adults to have sovereignty over their own consciousness, I would also like us all to have sovereignty over our own past and not to be told what to think about the past by so-called experts. If this is successful on Netflix, has there been any discussions about future episodes, future seasons? Well, Netflix is the law of the jungle. Yeah. So if the series is successful, I hope that there will be a second season. And if it's not successful, there definitely won't be a second season.

But I hope there will be. I hope the series will succeed. I hope people will watch it. And if they do in that second season, I would like to look at psychedelics. And I'd like to look at the Amazon. I'd like to spend much more time in the Amazon looking at that and the way that psychedelics are used there. And also at the mysterious backstory of the Amazon, which so far is not being told. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Either this series will work or it won't work. And if I can do a little plug, it launches on Netflix on the 11th of November, 2022. All episodes will be released at once, so people can watch it in one night if they wish to do so. How many episodes? Eight episodes altogether. And it's the last episode that really unfolds the ancient apocalypse element of this.

And in the first seven episodes, we're looking at all the mysteries in the past of humanity that are so far unexplained. Could I pop up one last clip? Yes, please. That's going to be the one called Horizon, Jamie. For 30 years, I've been looking for something I was told couldn't possibly exist. An advanced human civilization, much older than our own, lost to history.

The mainstream version of history says that after the end of the Ice Age, on their own initiative, our hunter-gatherer ancestors suddenly began farming and raising livestock, creating settlements and eventually cities until the first civilizations emerged around 6,000 years ago. But new discoveries keep on pushing that horizon back. Very exciting.

That's the point. We're trying to bring those new discoveries out and let people see for themselves, you know, what is going on here. And, well, fingers crossed. Listen, it's going to be gigantic. We're going to force it. We're going to make sure people watch it. I think there's kind of a network of various researchers who are looking at different aspects of this and trying to get this word out in different ways. And many of them I've brought together in this series. Yeah, good.

I've brought together the leading alternative voices, including very much yours. Oh, thank you, Graham. I think the genie's out of the bottle, and I'm honored to have you guys on. I really am. I'll put it this way. I think that what we've been confronted with is this huge wall with big gates, almost like you might picture on Mordor or something, these big gates. And there's little chinks in the wall and little cracks in the gate,

and we've been peering through, looking at this other world and only getting a little piece of it. But I'll make a prediction that within the next few years, we're about to blow those gates right off their hinges. And everything is going to change from that moment on. I think you're right. Yep, absolutely. I'm very excited. Bring it on. Bring it on.

Bring it on. Let's have a different way of looking at things. Let's not stay locked in the old patterns. Let's move ahead in new and different ways. Yes. Let's. Gentlemen, I'm honored. I'm honored to have you on.

I'm honored to be your friend. Thank you, Joe. Likewise, Joe. Thank you. And thank you for the work we've done together over the years. It's been exciting. Without your support, archaeology would have succeeded in keeping my mouth shut and in keeping me out of the public view. Your support has made all that difference.

Well, it's one of the main things that I love about doing this show is to be able to expose people to really exciting, and in this case, I think very important ideas. Yeah. And I'm going to keep nagging you until I can get you out in the field for a few days. I'll go. I'll go. I promise. And those gentlemen that you requested, I'll definitely have them on as well. Definitely.

And let's organize a debate with some of the leading archaeological critics. Anybody out there, holler at your boy, get you on, be happy to do that and treat you with respect. It's not going to be an ambush. I'd just love to hear a respectable position that counters this and see how they face up against the preponderance of evidence. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. My thought is you're going to have a tough time convincing them to come on. Well, maybe as you were saying that as these gatekeepers die off and as younger archaeologists are more open-minded and so many people who maybe got into archaeology because of this. Yeah, oh yeah. I think the number is considerable. I've met many young archaeologists in the field on my travels and

research who secretly tell me that they've read my books. Secretly? Yeah. But they have to keep their mouth shut. They don't want their bosses to know that they have read my books and that they are interested. I think that just as the younger generation in every area is breaking the old boundaries, I think that's happening in archaeology too. And I don't want to be somebody who's just completely putting down archaeology. Archaeology has done a lot of fantastic and important work over the years. And I couldn't do what I do without the work that archaeologists have done. But it's just that gatekeeper role which needs to be broken apart. Well, through your work, I think that's happening. I hope so.

All right. Thank you, Joe. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Randall. Enjoyed the heck out of it, Joe. Always. It's a pleasure.

So we'll have you back on. This is number seven for me, man. How many have we done? I think we've done, this is probably the ninth. Well, we've got to get you on a couple more times to balance it out. So the next time we come on, we'll discuss all of this alternative technology that's being worked on. You can do that in January if you want. Let's do it.

Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, everybody.