The Joe Rogan Experience - #1905 - Derek, More Plates More Dates

Episode Date: December 3, 2022

Derek is the fitness educator and entrepreneur behind the "More Plates, More Dates" YouTube channel, podcast, and companion website. www.moreplatesmoredates.com

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Hey Derek, you know how I got so jacked? How? I followed the nine ancestral tenets. Oh, I heard that works really well. It's the best way. Yeah.

Boy, when I saw that video that you posted, you actually sent me the video after I'd already seen it. I caught it within three minutes of you posting it. Oh, my God. I saw it. It just showed up on my YouTube feed. I'm like, oh, yes, here we go. And I wasn't surprised at all. No.

I mean, it seems completely makes sense, but that's exactly what I expected. Yeah, it seemed like just a matter of time for him. There's no way you can look like that in your 40s. That Jack, I mean, he's preposterously Jack. Do we have a fucking, now that we know that he's full of shit, we're talking about the liver king, by the way, ladies and gentlemen. A lot of people are like, what are they saying? This is all inside stuff.

There's a guy, if you don't know who the liver king is, there's a guy who you don't know who the liver king is the guy calls himself the liver king and he's this guy who uh walks around everywhere with no shirt on i've seen him in vegas with no shirt on big bushy beard super jacked and he was telling people that the way he gets that way is by sunning his balls he uh he he literally lays down with his asshole staring at the sun and and eats raw liver and just lifts like a maniac. And that's how he's so jacked. But it's preposterous. Yeah, too many polar extremes to have just like a unique marketing spin that was just highly viral, in my opinion.

And I don't know. Most people could see through it. But at the same time, he would. There was a lot of big names that even reached out to me after the video came out, and they were like, I didn't think he was natural, but this guy literally right to my face would say blatantly, I am natural. A lot of people will take a guy at his word when it's a private conversation, and if he's straight up telling you in person, yeah, it's actually legit.

I'm natural. And he was just lying through his fucking teeth seemingly. There's some people that are really jacked that are natural. For sure. Some people that are like super, super disciplined. They, you know, they're taking supplements, but all legal supplements that you get at like a vitamin store. And they're just like, they've never gotten off the grind. And who's that guy, Paul Sklar? Did you comment on him?

Yeah, yeah. He actually did blood work like immediately after I had talked about it one time and it checked out. Yeah. He looks like what's possible. Like I, if you don't know who that guy is, he's super jacked and he's 50 years old. But when I'm looking at him, I am not getting any like steroidy vibes. I'm getting a really fit guy who works out really hard and has probably been doing it for 30 years. Yeah. That's what I get when I look at that guy.

That's all feasible and possible. Now, please go to the liver king. Please show me some preposterous liver king physiology. Oh, he has, have you seen his apology? No, I haven't. I don't want to watch it. He comes clean on steroids. I fucked up.

I don't know if you guys are able to watch the- I just want to see his images, though. I want to see some images of his body. Because his body is just so off the charts, ridiculously massive. That's okay, but... That's like unflattering lighting. Yeah.

I want to show some of him, like, jacked and lifting. Because he's just fucking gigantic so he did cover the ab implants and etching again he said no to both even in his apology touches on it is it i mean i guess it's possible if you're on that much juice that your ab muscles grow that big too because the kind of stuff he does is you know very core specific like he's doing a lot of stuff where he's like cleaning and pressing kettlebells and walking with them over his head

and all that stuff really does ignite your core and if he's doing that all the time i'd imagine it's possible that those are real abs but that was the question do possible that those are real abs. But that was the question. Do you think those are real abs? Yeah, personally, I think they're legitimate abs. And the etching thing, I think, is more of the controversial topic. Did he have some sort of like cosmetic work done to target locally the fat around the abdominal definition. Would that make much of a difference, though? Because he's very lean, clearly.

If you look at his arms, you look at his chest, you look at everything. Look at that image right there. He's so lean. I mean, how much fat would you even be talking about? And how would that make – the thing is the topographical map of his abs, the way they pop up like mountains. That's just mass Yeah, that's where the question of whether or not that's real or whether another implant That's what I was leaning to is just like I feel like his overall body composition is pretty consistently represented

I don't think he has like this like I get that his The argument is they don't change in Yeah, like, look at him walking there. The argument is they don't change in, like, when he sits down or anything, the density of them and, like, the separation is so dramatic that it's got to be something. Yeah. And, you know, you could never really say if it was well done, like, what did or didn't happen.

I don't think it's implants, though. That would be really obvious in my opinion. Well, granted, then it's like, well, if it's unnoticeable, would you even... Right. It's like plastic surgery. You only see the stuff that's not good. Are you guys able to play the apology without it being copyrighted? Come after us.

I don't know what the Spotify copyright rules are like. Oh, listen. I think Spotify can handle this. Play the YouTube version. Let's play it. Put a little bit up on Instagram. Yeah, if you put it on YouTube, you're more than allowed to. Here it goes.

Livercake confession. I'm making this video. That's a terrible sound. Is it a connection issue? Maybe. Yeah. Hmm. Weird. Hmm. Weird.

That's happened before. What is that? I don't know. A lot of people believed him, including the Bell brothers, Chris and Mark Bell. I'm like, how, guys? You do steroids. How do you not look at that guy and go, clearly? How do you not look at that guy and go, clearly?

I think Mark likes to think that a lot of people, like, again, he doesn't want to put a, is it working? Like a limitation on what's possible. Like he likes to believe that you could. And again, because this, the problem with this too is a lot of people will extrapolate this out and then think everyone with a jacked physique must be doing something which is problematic because then it sort of creates this right this narrative around you know everyone's lying or anyone with a good physique it's impossible to get there without yeah doping your fucking face off kind of thing which is not the case there are certain individuals who like i do believe that physique, okay, maybe not that physique, but within striking distance of that, in 0.00001% of individuals, you could get there naturally. Yeah. Potentially.

Hyper responders. Yeah. Guys who are just like ridiculous genetics. Like Ronnie Coleman Natural. Yes. Yeah. Perfect example. Yeah.

Ronnie Coleman Natural was super jacked, but he couldn't compete with the most jacked guys and then he started doing steroids yeah he just exploded but he's super honest about it like when Ronnie talks about it he just will explain like up until he was 30 years old he was natural yeah so can we get it okay yeah maybe there's another version Okay. Got a little... Because I'm embarrassed and ashamed, it sounds fucking terrible. Yeah. Maybe there's another version of it? I think there's something wrong with my cable for some reason. I'm looking at the audio on my feed and it's not...

Is it the cable or is it how it connects? Is it like... It's one or the other. It could be both. That's an old-ass laptop, isn't it? No, it's a new one. Oh, okay. It's an old cable, maybe.

Because I lied and I misread. Yeah, it's quiet. I don't know if something's wrong. That's all right let's play we can hear what he's saying Because I fucked up. Because I'm embarrassed and ashamed. Because I lied. And I misled a lot of people. I've stated that this is a complicated as fuck topic, at least to me it is, because before social media, I was rich and anonymous. And after social media, I'm still rich, but no longer anonymous.

And I never expected this kind of exposure in the public eye. It's been tricky as fuck to navigate. Well, clearly I did it wrong, and I'm here now to set the record straight. Yes, I've done steroids, and yes, I'm on steroids, and I'm already managed by a trained hormone clinician. Leverking the public figure was an experiment to spread the message, to bring awareness to the 4,000 people a day who kill themselves, the 80,000 people a day that try to kill themselves. Our people are hurting at record rates with depression, autoimmune,

anxiety, infertility, low ambition in life. Our young men are hurting the most, feeling lost, weak, and submissive. So I made it my job to not teach and preach. He did it for the hurting people. The comments are not

too favorable on that part of the video pause Your highest and most dominant form What he that he wanted everybody that's depressed and trying to kill themselves to reach their highest most dominant form But he wanted to lie about how he achieved his physique. So mislead these people that just by eating liver, you can come close to that. So as you fail at that as well, as everything else you failed at life,

it led you to the point of doing something to yourself that you're thinking about committing suicide. Yeah. That's what he's saying. I feel like in this video. He had like a very good opportunity to just straight up say Sorry, I fucked up etc, which I think he thought he was doing but he also makes a few little comments in there that I feel like people really Dug in on like the whole I didn't expect it to happen this or me to blow up this much It's like it was very meticulously planned out from inception of the brand within this

I don't know if you saw the emails, but it's like within one year, I want to be at exactly this in social media following, and this is what I'm going to do. What's his social media following at now, Jamie? What's his Instagram? I bet he's at 5 million. I think on TikTok. 1.7 million. On TikTok, he's at like 3 point something million.

Half of it's Chinese bots. Maybe. All right, let's play some more of this nonsense. Yeah. I'm spreading the message. I've been on several podcasts. And when asked if I've ever taken steroids, I've always said no. I don't touch the stuff.

Not going to touch the stuff. Never touch the stuff. That was a lie. I've convinced myself that this had nothing to do with the ancestral message. I convinced myself that I'm not a competitive athlete of any kind, so who the fuck am I cheating? I convinced myself that this topic was a placeholder for a far more important conversation. I convinced myself that this would overshadow the 36 years of working out, usually twice a day, without PEDs. That's not true. I convinced myself that this was

the bulk of minority, usually in the fitness category, driving to an unproductive conversation. And I had convinced myself that this would be the wrong message to send to the 15-year-old boys. Oh, the 15-year-old boys. So I continually dismissed it. The ones who actually can get jacked. We've seen enough.

You know what the problem is? Sometimes people don't hang out with people that are smarter than them. And you think you're the smartest person or maybe because he's running this company, people have to listen to him. So he's got this distorted perception of his ability to communicate and his ability to convince people. That was so theatrical and so corny. I don't know how, like what kind of thought process went into it. There was some sort of ROI calculation on

if I lie, like what is the probability I get outed versus how viral can I go if I lie from the get-go versus like, I just don't know how his team, especially with the information out there, thought that it was going to be a net win where it's probably never going to come out. Does he have a team?

Yeah, it's pretty elaborate. Like, his team was, well, he has a media team that he hired to kind of like. Right, but they're just employees. One of them came up to me in Vegas. Oh, really? Yeah, one of my security guards stopped him. He was like, I'm a producer for the Liver King. I'm like, what the fuck do you produce? What are you producing?

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. It's not a movie. Like, how many UFC events did he try and kind of like cozy up? He was front row at one of my shows in Vegas. Oh, damn. At the MGM. Yeah, and then I saw him again at the Canelify. He was trying really hard to get on the podcast. And he's been trying really hard to get

on now. He contacted a few friends of mine. And some of them that have, like, Bert Kreischer that had him on the show. Yeah, he told me he's trying to get on.

Yeah, for what? For what? Say that more? Like, come on. This is dumb, man. This is a fucking, you ran a con game and you got busted.

Yeah. And it's unfortunate that you feel terrible. I'm sorry you feel bad. Because that's just what happens when you get caught lying. But you didn't have to lie. I don't even see how bad it would have been if from the get-go he was like,

it's not the healthiest. A lot of hormone replacement. Yeah, but I understand the not wanting to talk about the other shit because he was on Winstrel, Deca, high amounts of GH, etc., which is not ancestrally consistent, but neither is HRT because it's like, well, if your diet was so dialed, why is it that you don't have adequate testicular function or adequate hormone output or this or that?

And it's just like, I guess it kind of just spit in the face of his message too much that he couldn't wrap his head around justifying coming out and saying, I'm on HRT, but do this other stuff. Well, he kind of had, I mean on HRT, but do this other stuff. Well, he kind of had, I mean, one of the parts of your video that was really good was that you inserted this guy who gives a definition of charlatans. Who's that guy? Zach Tellender. Zach Tellender. So that guy's definition of charlatans is really excellent because when you're talking about fitness and physiques and you're talking about bodybuilding and just getting jacked, there are so many like really educated, really jacked looking people that are online that tell you how they do it.

Yeah. And they give you like what supplements they're taking, what kind of sets they're doing, what's their recovery like, all those things. And everyone's giving a very similar message. Some people have different approaches. Some people, you know, they're doing, you know, different kinds of exercises. But it's pretty consistent. And one of the things that Zach talked about in that video that you inserted into your video which is really good was that when someone comes along

and they have a secret yeah this is the secret the secret is the nine ancestral tenants you see him there with beard he looks like a fucking like an ogre and like someone in Lord of the Rings yeah like it looks like you belong the nine ancestral tenants like you're gonna meet him in a cave somewhere

And he's gonna explain to you and give you a magic staff Yeah It's like he needs I felt he feels it justified to be a larger-than-life character to represent the polar extreme of ancestral living And even if it's at the detriment of having to take a bunch of drugs to do it because men are killing themselves Derek there's a whole reason for it. Yeah, it's so dumb because imagine if you're like a really skinny guy and you're like all I have to do is eat liver and I can look like that guy imagine like there's people out there that really believe that like that's what's missing you know wolves eat liver why don't I eat liver so they going which is by the way very very healthy

for you yeah liver is a fantastic food to eat one of the very best foods yeah I've been eating an ounce a day for years, personally. I saw that in the video, too. I eat elk liver. Whenever I kill an elk, it's a giant-ass liver. It's like this big. And I buy calves liver, and I'll eat liver at restaurants. It's very good for you.

It's rich in nutrients. But that's not going to get you that big. That's hyperhuman. What that guy's achieved with his physique is a lot of hard work, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, but also exogenous hormones. Yeah. And it's like there are people out there that are more educational and obviously natural, like Saladino. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, like I feel like he puts out like pretty goddamn informative content that still represents his, even if he has a polar extreme, like potentially narrow view of like what the optimal diet is. It's very much like reinforced by information, thought process, not necessarily his, like he shows up shirtless on camera. And I'm sure some of that was inspired by the liver king to some extent because he didn't used to do that. But it's like natural. When did he start? When did he start with his shirtless on camera i don't know but it like uh maybe half a year ago or nine months ago wow i wonder if the liver king inspired him to do that's interesting yeah he started showing his meals and you know showing up shirtless on camera but he has a great physique and he's natural totally natural yeah that's what's achievable you look at paul's physique it's

he looks excellent and it's totally achievable. Yeah, and he's in his 40s still, still has high hormone output, et cetera. Yeah. He walks the walk and talks the talk. He's a legitimate medical doctor. He's real. And unfortunately, he's in business with the liver king. Yeah, it's complicated.

Have you seen his video about separating thighs? Yeah. Fucking crazy. All right, let you seen his video about, like, separating guys? Yeah. Fucking crazy. All right, let's play his video. Poor Paul. Poor Paul, brother. He's great. I really like that guy.

I don't know if he's accurate. I shouldn't say honest. I meant to say accurate in terms of, like, whether or not vegetables are actually bad for you. Yeah, some of it, like, again, it's very much leaning into certain extrapolations he's made that support his hypothesis, I feel like, which I feel like could be a stretch in many scenarios where it's just like this equals bad, not moderate quantities equals potentially cumulatively beneficial for some people, I did a podcast with him not that long ago, and I felt like I gave pretty fair questions that really assessed in some circumstances could like even medications, for example, like he's pretty against things that are like pharmaceutical at this point. He thinks everything could be naturally rectified through high quality lifestyle, diet, et cetera. To some extent, maybe I'm speaking on his behalf and being a little bit too polar on that. that maybe I'm speaking on his behalf and being a little bit too polar on that. But he is very, like, I don't know.

He's open to the idea that there's some minor benefit, potentially, to having the hormetic stress of a vegetable in some circumstance, but then in his content that's bite-sized, it very much comes across like, seed oils fucking suck. This equals bad. Don't touch this. And I don't know. He's definitely finding his own unique way to pick up virality himself,

but at least it's centered around, like, what he believes to be truthful. He's not misleading necessarily with his, like, you know, a fucking calculated pre-planned meticulously thought out, like, lie, essentially. Yeah. Well, let's see what he says and note that he has a shirt on. Yeah. essentially. Let's see what he says and note that he has his shirt on. So I wanted to post a story today with a little more context for

the Leverking situation. I posted a reel with my thoughts. I've known Brian for five years, long before his social media presence began. He's a good human at his core and I'm incredibly disappointed by the steroid revelations which appear to be true. I think integrity is everything.

The most common question that I'm getting asked now is didn't you know Paul about the steroid use? The answer is no. I had my concerns about it. I had my doubts that he was free of PEDs like so many of you, but on multiple occasions when I challenged him with this, I was told that the answer is no, that he was not on any performance enhancing drugs. Brian and I are both adult humans. We live thousands of miles apart from each other, but I had no knowledge of his PED use, though I did have my concerns, as I said. I will take full responsibility for my lack of ability to challenge him with those concerns sooner.

When he began getting traction on social media, I should have brought my concerns about the truthfulness, the veracity of his statements, of his claims that he was not using PEDs to him sooner. And like I said, I will take full responsibility for that. That was my mistake. Let's stop right there. I did not know about that.

I get it. Here's the problem. He was in business with this guy before he became this gigantic social media presence. That supplement line that Paul and the Liver King were involved with, that's existed for years. I mean, he was on my podcast years ago and he gave me some of those supplements. Yeah, yeah. I think Heart and Soil has been around since well before the Liver King inception. So back then it didn't matter. What Paul was trying to do was he was trying to promote supplements that he believed would enhance people's diet. That, you know, if you can't eat enough liver, if you can't get heart and kidney, you know, we could use desiccated forms of it.

Yeah. And I think that's a noble way to market it, too, where it's like I have a, let's say I have a micronutrient deficiency of, I don't know, vitamin A or copper or whatever it is. Or choline, for example, like liver is very dense in choline. That sort of thing using, if you don't like the taste of liver, is it reasonable to have a supplement in capsule format to get the exact same thing in, but without having to eat something you deem to be gross? Like totally.

And I think that's like a totally fair way to market it as well. Yeah. But it's the whole, you know, the other angle. Yeah. But imagine being in business with this guy and the other angle. Yeah. But imagine being in business with this guy and then all of a sudden the guy starts being shirtless, walking around with a chain around his neck and, you know, the, all the crazy shit that he was doing and then saying he's steroid free. The crazy thing about it is the first time, as far as I know, that he said

and lied to somebody on camera was to the face of Paul. So that's probably why he feels even more. Really? Yeah. Like it was on Paul's podcast where he was like, you know, tell everyone about, uh, like there's a lot of speculation going around, you know, we've talked about it. Tell them, are you enhanced with PEDs? What do you do to get this physique? And then he basically just said, this question has done more for the Liver King brand than any other question. And I'm glad you're asking. The answer is no. I've never done the shit.

Never going to do the shit. I feel like, I mean, this is obviously this is Monday morning quarterbacking. And Paul's a friend. I really like Paul. But I feel like you should have asked him to take a blood test. Yeah. Like if you're highly suspect of it. You're in business with this guy.

Yeah. And now this guy has this gigantic social media presence. Imagine drug testing your fucking business partner. Yeah. Well, I would do that. Yeah. It's just funny how that's actually justified in this scenario. In that scenario, it is.

I think ordinarily, if the guy was just a business partner, of course you wouldn't. But also, of course you wouldn't lie. Look, if I was friends with the liver king and he told me he was clean, I'd be like, get the fuck of course you wouldn't. But also, of course you wouldn't lie. Like, if I was friends with the liver king and he told me he was clean, I'd be like, get the fuck out of here, bitch. Yeah. That's what I would say. I would be like, as a friend,

I'd be like, come on, man, shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. You're 5'7", 200 plus pounds, solid muscle. And you're, what, 45 or something like that? Bitch, get out of here. You're doing something. Stop lying. Yeah. Just as a friend, I would be like, I Yeah. Bitch, get out of here. You're doing something. Stop lying. Yeah.

Just as a friend, I would be like, I can't be friends with you now because now I know if you'll lie about something so similar or so simple, rather. Yeah. No, yeah, I guess, like he did say, you know, I should have grilled him harder, but then it's like a lot of people, you know, get on him like, shut up. Like you should have known before the fact.

Should have known. Yeah. You should have known, but he doesn't do anything. So maybe that's why. You know, maybe if he was on HRT and maybe he was surrounding himself with guys who were, like, really super jacked. Yeah. Maybe he would, like, be more entrenched in that world.

But it seems like the kind of exercises that he does, he does a lot of bodyweight stuff and he does a lot of, like, sprints on the beach and surfing. Yeah. He's not in that world. Yeah, there are some people who are in the know, like you, who would be like, obviously. Like, how could you not know? And a lot of people are coming out and like, oh, big surprise. Like, who didn't fucking see it coming? But there are a lot of people, like, potentially even Paul.

Like, some people are doubtful that he's, you know, truthful in that context. But, like, Paul's like a hyper intelligent individual and if he actually didn't know like imagine the layman who thinks that you know the rock is fucking clean for example right yeah exactly does the rock say he's clean he has implied it pretty heavily but he also doesn't end up in scenarios where he gets ass point blank whereas liver king goes out of his way to fucking lean into it and use it as like a marketing spiel. The Rock should come clean right now. He should make a video in response to the Liver King video. I need to talk to you because The Rock's been lying.

Yeah. No, yeah. There's not a fucking chance in hell he's clean. No. Not a chance in hell. As big as The Rock is at 50 what was wild as he came out okay and i get this is like coincides with the message he would want to push too and i don't think it's like disingenuous necessarily but it's like he was on men's health

interview and he talks about how his number one priority is longevity now the rock yeah and i'm like dude like everything you're doing is like the hyper opposite of that. Like in terms of a diet, a lifestyle, potentially. But like the drug exposure to maintain the physique to then do the superhero roles to do the whatever at his age. Like it's clearly not longevity focused. It's very much like how much can I milk this right now with my brand sort of thing. Well, we're not. When you're looking at a physique,

let's look at a physique of The Rock, like a full jacked Rock. Find The Rock at his most jackety-jacked. He's like pretty fucking peaked in terms of like the last few years, he's definitely like turned it up a notch. At 50. Yeah. That's natural, bro. Yeah, how could you think otherwise?

Eats a lot of sushi. Yeah. That's natural, bro. Yeah, how could you think otherwise? Eats a lot of sushi. Yeah. But point is, it's like you can't even get there with HRT. That's not HRT.

No. Like that, Jesus Christ. Yeah. And it's like, is this pro-longevity? Like, of course not. No, he's so massive, and he's so different than he was when he was 30. Yeah, when you're in your 20s and obviously mindful of your image and you're still working out like a maniac, you're like a top tier. He's a genetic marvel as is anyways when he was natural. Yes.

So to have all of a sudden 30 years later like you're in better form than you were in your 20s, like, it's just fucking obvious, obviously. Yeah. I mean, this is okay. But there's some better videos of him where it just, you know, shows this preposterous physique that, you know, there's a responsibility that you have to people that are listening to you. And if you don't want to talk about it That's one thing yeah, but if you do talk about it There's a responsibility that you have to people that are listening to you and I think you have to be honest Yeah, which is why I'm honest about it. I just I don't think there's anything wrong with taking hormone replacement I think it's actually wise. I think it's healthier

I feel way better than I did before I was doing it and I started doing it when I was like 37 38 and even then I was doing it. And I started doing it when I was like 37, 38. And even then, I was just taking like the cream. I was taking a testosterone cream. And like right away, I was like, oh, my God, I feel so much better. Like everything felt better. I don't think it's wrong. I think it's smart.

But you got to be honest. What do you think an A-list actor should do if they were asked point blank in an interview on like a movie? Like they're promoting a movie that they just did where they just peaked their physique and it's clear to the person who can discern what's going on. Like Thor. Yeah, let's just say Hemsworth is in an interview. What do you think he should answer when he's asked point blank? Like did you use any enhancement? Well, Mickey Rourke did.

Shout out to Mickey Rourke. Yeah, when Mickey Rourke did The Wrestler, he told everybody. He's like, he did, I think he did one of those shows, like Letterman or Colbert or something like that. He's like, I was on a ton of shit. Yeah. Yeah, he was like, oh, I talk a lot of stuff. Because there's definitely an argument.

Mickey's kind of wild, though, you know? Yeah. There's definitely an argument to be made that when you have such an impressionable and massive audience that if you say this is what it took to get here, it very much could influence the trajectory of certain younger men who are trying to aspire to be like you. So, like, I see both sides of the coin for sure. So it's kind of an interesting scenario for some of the actors because I think just unspokenly some of these interviewers know to not ask the question right but like it's just an interesting scenario in which i would wonder what the best answer is if it's just point blank yes well let me tell you a case there was a guy who got really jacked for a superhero role and he did a friend of mine's podcast and he said to him

before the podcast i'll talk about anything but do not ask me about drugs i just please don't talk to me about steroids or drugs it was the number one thing he did not want to talk about i think studios and the you know the massive amount of money that's involved in a film. The one thing they don't want is to jeopardize any of the potential income. And if you come out and say, the only way I got this way for the Hulk is I had to take massive amounts of steroids and this is just how it is. People are going to get upset. Oh, you cheated. This is just how it is.

People are going to get upset. Oh, you cheated. And there's a mentality as you go further down the line that people are less and less educated about the realities of fitness and physiques. As you go further and further down the line, there's a mentality where people are like, Barry Bonds cheated. Mark McGuire cheated. Those are cheaters. Or Lance Armstrong. Yeah, Lance Armstrong cheated.

And they're just uneducated. And unfortunately, we're playing to that. And mainstream television is so woefully piss poor at interviewing these people and pressing them. And they let them off the hook every time. Every single time, whether it's Thor, whether it's Hemsworth, or any of these people who got super fucking jacked for a movie, like Wolverine, like cut the fucking shit.

You know what's wild is apparently he's coming back to be Wolverine again. But they're going to CGI it. Oh, they are? Yeah, he said he can't do that anymore. And, you know,

he's probably, yeah, and he's also, he's in his 50s he's probably like i am not doing i'm not gonna commit to fucking killing myself potentially for sure i mean what do you think a guy like that gets on to get that big i mean what kind of stuff i've never gotten that big so when you get that big like what do you want well Well, Wolverine, I feel like his physique was largely low body fat, more so than, like, massive amounts of size.

Yeah, and that one, that's a good point. The most stacked he's been is that picture right there, basically. And you can just see it in the traps. Yeah, that's actually achievable. Yeah. Guys have definitely, that Paul Sklar guy is built like that. It's just in the condensed time frame and the unique circumstances imposed on these individuals who go into the prep not looking like anything, that's where it gets unrealistic, and they're just completely transforming in a matter of 12 weeks.

Right. Yeah. He looks pretty jacked there. Yeah. Look, he got massive. He probably took some shit. Yeah. But Hemsworth got bigger than that, right?

Yeah. But he also has better genetics for sure. Yeah. I actually talked to his trainer. It was for the first role he ever did, the first Thor movie. He had this guy who was like Chris Duffin or something. I forget the guy's name. But that guy outsourced a trainer who was local to Chris to work with him.

And that guy claims he had, I asked him point blank, he was like, I have no idea what they were doing. Like, even the guy who was literally with him in the gym, he could be lying to my face, though, too. But he said he had no recollection of them, no idea that they were doing anything. As far as he knows, it was all natural. I'm just like like yeah it's a weird world isn't it like where you're supposed to kind of be full of shit about that stuff yeah because it's so obvious to people yeah like you know one of the interesting things i don't i don't actually think it's problematic by the way for somebody to

juice up for a role to represent a superhero character it's more when they like they lie but they also have marketing and or products centered around their physiques and what they achieve for that role like for example with hemsworth he has like this app that sold for 200 million dollars that is centered around workouts and stuff but some of the marketing around that will be like, train like Thor. You know, this is what Thor did, had to get his physique sort of thing. Yeah. That's where it gets kind of murky, in my opinion, more so.

Yeah. Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing steroids to achieve that sort of physique for a movie either. Yeah. I do think there's something wrong with lying about it. Yeah. But there's also, if you went on a show, see, when Mickey Rourke did it,

he did it for The Wrestler when he talked about it. He talked about doing steroids for The Wrestler, and that was a movie that wasn't really about a hero. It was about a guy who's down and out, and he's all fucked up, and he's doing drugs, and he's a mess. out and he's all fucked up and he's doing drugs and he's a he's a mess you know it's not a an admirable character that people would aspire to be like you know like black adam you know when you see the rock and he's standing there with his shirt off with his shorts on there's not a man

alive doesn't want to be built like that they all want to be built like that so if he's telling you that he's not doing anything to get that, and I don't know if he is, is he telling people? Does he say, I've never taken steroids in my life? Does he say that? He said in one instance that when he was 18, him and his friends took something and it gave him gynecomastia and then he never touched it again or something like that.

That seems suspect. Super suspect. First of all, when you're 18, just doing something once is not going to give you gyno. It could. Could it really? The most prevalence I've seen of gyno development is in individuals who, like, without enough information went into haphazard use of, like, a pro-hormone or, like, an oral steroid without understanding, like, the pharmacology around it and then fuck themselves up.

One time? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Like, you do, like, a heavy cycle of D-ball or something, get some gyno and— No shit. I thought it would take a few cycles. To develop into, like, a significant matured titty, then, yeah.

But, like, it depends on the genetic predisposition because some guys get gyno just through puberty, too. Really? Yeah. Oh, it's just a natural thing that just fucks up. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Well, him saying that he did something once when he was 18 and he got gyno, like, how'd you take care of it?

Yeah. What'd you do to get rid of the gyno? Yeah, presumably. Right. You have to have an operation. Yeah. Like, people need to understand, like, that's not fluid. It's like a gland gets bigger, right?

Yeah. It's like literal glandular tissue that you need to get surgically removed. Have you ever seen it, the operation? Oh, yeah. I've done videos on it. Oh, that's right. You have. It's horrible.

It's like you're pulling those little alien chest bursters out of your titty. It's amazing how much mass there is behind those things. Oh, yeah. It's amazing how much mass there is behind those things. Oh, yeah. No, they, like, even for such, like, a little, something that's just barely protruding cosmetically, just at an objective look, when you actually look at what came out, it's like, damn. Yeah. That's a fuck ton of tissue.

It's a fucking egg. Yeah. Yeah, it's gross. Yeah, but I don't, I mean, if that's all he's, if he's saying that, that's all he's ever done, that's crazy talk. Yeah. It's like, at that point, it's like, that's all he's ever done, that's crazy talk. Yeah. It's like at that point, it's weird. It's like trying to half-tell the truth but not at all at the same time. Also, when you look at his physique in the early days of the WWE.

Oh, nothing in comparison. Yeah, let's go to like the early days of The Rock. I mean, he was like very athletic. I mean, great genetics. Big, strong guy. Yeah. But he didn't look anything like he looks now. The mass and the striations and the vascularity. This version of him did, but, like, this version definitely didn't.

Yeah. Like that version. I mean, he's fit. On the right. Yeah. Looks good. But look at the difference there. Yeah.

Unless I had hair then. Yeah. I mean, but look at the difference there. Yeah. That's that hair then. Yeah, I mean, looks very fit. I mean, he's a fucking, he's pretty jacked. That's more recent because that's the crazy tattoo. That's him now. I mean, this is much older. I mean, he's a fucking massive, heavily muscled guy. Some shots of him where it's just like.

So what kind of stuff do you think well that was he looks pretty good there he just doesn't look lean I think there was like type in The Rock

Scorpion King I think that was an old enough movie where it was like on the red carpet the guy just looked like a like a totally

I don't know like a shell of what he is now and that was a long time. Come on, not bad. This is bad CGI. I actually never had it. Maybe this isn't a good example. Why don't you look red carpet?

It looks pretty good there. Yeah, that's good. I forget which. Well, maybe on the red carpet he was off the cycle. There was one picture where it just looked, like, dramatically different. I don't remember exactly what year it was. But, okay, it wasn't that year. Yeah, no, he looks pretty big.

Yeah. Look, he's a giant dude. Massive human being. And, you know, clearly when he's lean and, you know, he looks great. But what do you think you would have to do to achieve that kind of a physique at 50? First of all, you wouldn't maintain that kind of mass as you naturally got older normally, right? No, definitely not. Like, it's, like, the total – again, it's, like, there's a reason why I feel that your body naturally downregulates a lot of processes, too, potentially, to, like, conserve – like, stay alive longer.

Because the bigger of a human you are, the faster you're going to die in general. Like I don't see many like seven foot guys walking around at 80 plus years old personally. Very few. Isn't like Bill Russell was like one of the few? He passed away. How old was he though? He was quite old. Yeah, yeah. I think he got close to 90. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, but in general, like even bodybuilders like again, they're subjecting themselves to absurd amounts of drugs, but at the same time, like, even bodybuilders, like, again, they're subjecting themselves to absurd amounts of drugs. But at the same time, like, the sheer body weight and the stress it imposes on all organ systems and the longevity of everything internally, not just, like, it's all something that accelerates you towards death faster, like, essentially. So it's, like, total antithesis of longevity at the end of the day. Right. So, yeah, you're definitely not going to be able to sustain that at 50, even on HRT. Like you're going to have to be – he's going to have to like transiently push the envelope fairly often if he's doing multiple rolls on a consistent basis that require this look. And it seems like he's been like pretty fucking dialed about maintaining it like year over year now.

Yeah, he's never really gotten thin or fat or never shrunk down and built back up. There's definitely something about once you've built the tissue, you can retain it with like a very modest amount, or at least to some extent, like it's still going to typically be something outside of what would be normally achievable in terms of your hormone production. Cause if you went totally naturally, you would just fucking melt away. But a lot of it is the building the muscle. I'm sure you can attest to building muscle as magnitudes harder than it is to just like hold your physique. Yes. So like you could get away with maybe working out like a few times a week with like very moderate volume and maintain exactly what you have, but to actually build, you're going to have to go into a surplus.

You're going to have to increase your volume. You're going to have to increase your, you know, your rest, your sleep quality, duration, et cetera. Like, it's all very demanding. So it's not – it wouldn't be unthinkable that – or unfathomable, whatever the terminology would be, that he would use a shit ton or, like, a decent amount, blast, got to where he is, and then he could sustain it with what he deems to be not healthy but but like healthy enough that he can sort of just like cruise on it and like hold his shape for whatever the foreseeable future of him doing these kinds of roles. So what kind of stuff do you think someone would take to achieve that sort of physique? I don't think it's very dissimilar from what like liver King, everything he's doing is pharmacy derived and prescribed. Like there was a reason why the compounds he chose, some of them are...

For example, Winstrel, not something that has a clinical application generally, but there are certain medications that are only available through a pharmacy legally. You can get prescribed by a doctor and get overseen by a doctor. I would imagine The Rock is not touching stuff like Trendalone,

that's an underground product that is not going to have Trendalone. That's, you know, like an underground product that is not going to have, like, pharmaceutical standards for its production. And it's just not, like, a safe compound. Not that any of them are safe, but, like, generally it's not the most, I don't know, risk-averse compound. And what are the risks when someone,

especially when someone's, like, 50 and you're doing that? Like, what are the risks? Significant, like, heart enlargement and impeding the actual function of the cardiovascular system in general, kidney stress, depending on if you're using oral steroids or not, liver toxicity, neurodegeneration is going to be accelerated from high doses of androgens. Across the board, it's just broad spectrum, terrible for you. Above HRC.

So it is that interesting moral dilemma. Like what do those people say when they're confronted if they do want to be this – you know, they're trying to be this character that is a superhero and it's something that people are going to look up to. And, you know, they're a role model for young men. Look at this fit, healthy guy who's in the gym pushing it every day. The hardest worker in the room, like that kind of deal. Yeah. No, it's a weird, interesting scenario. And it's wild because it's like you can know for certain The Rock wouldn't be who he is

if it wasn't for the steroids and his physique. The physique is the selling point. It's like a really hot girl who decided to just let herself go. There's no way. Yeah. And to answer your question earlier, like what you would do to get that, I imagine he's probably prescribed a base amount of testosterone that he titrates up and down based on whatever he needs to do for his roles. I imagine he's on like a base of growth hormone and then he probably intertwines in things like DECA here and there, like I imagine for joint

support, but also like additional fullness, anabolism, et cetera. And then maybe like Anivar is like a hardening agent when he's preparing for roles that need to get like more dry and grainy looking. But in general, it's going to be stuff that is prescribable by his overseeing whoever it is that's overseeing his care it's going to be pharmaceutical grade compounds that you can um have actual medical oversight like no doctor is going to recommend you take like a trend balloon for example he looks amazing yeah it looks like a fucking bodybuilder level front double. Yeah, he looks fucking great. The question is, like, if these guys are doing media events

and they're going on, you know, these talk shows and they're being interviewed for interviews and stuff and they're not telling the truth about that, are they even being questioned? I mean, is anybody questioning The Rock or questioning Hemsworth? I think they kind of know it's, like, not going to turn out well if they ask. They'd probably get, like, fired, I imagine, if they actually asked that question to them.

Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Because I think that's an important topic. Yeah. No, and it just gets swept under the rug because it's, like, it's nothing about answering the question other than getting the breaking story is conducive to that reporter's like longevity of their career. Right.

Essentially. It's really unfortunate that that that even HRT has gotten such a weird. It's in this very bizarre category of things that people avoid discussing. Oh, yeah. category of things that people avoid discussing oh yeah i know guys that are sheepish sheepishly um asking questions and trying to get on it now that are friends of mine that like 10 years ago used to mock me for it they're like why are you taking that stuff i'm like why aren't you taking it yeah you know like what's wrong with you no even the celebrities that are honest or with exception of maybe like mickey rourke or something are like pretty careful and calculated about how they even represent their

hrt which could be like a therapeutic yeah amount like i there was one interview it was like uh i think it was uh kumail nanjiani talking with uh what's his name rob macklehenny from it's always sunny i forget the name of the show but they obviously Kumail totally, completely morphed his physique. Morphed? Yeah, the guy's fucking mutated in a year. And then Rob McElhenney did a wild transformation too. And they were talking about, I think it was Rob who said, yeah, my testosterone level is like...

He said something finicky to basically sort of deflect, but also say, yeah, I'm on HRT kind of thing. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. He's Jack now. Yeah. And he's in his 40s?

How old is he? He did that on purpose, too, to gain a bunch of weight. Yeah. To be funny for the show. Oh, so he got fat? He got fat on purpose for the show and then got ripped on purpose, too. And he said, like, it's really hard as fuck to do that without him being a celebrity and have all the resources he has.

It's also really bad for you to get fat like that. Like to do that for a show. Like when people do that for a show, it's like, Jesus Christ. What was the context of the, why did he get fat again? Again,

it was like, I think it was like, I don't know, season eight. This show has been on a long time. He was just like, I'm bored. And it's like, it'd be really funny if I got fat. And like, that's it was like, I don't know, season eight. This show's been on a long time. He's just like, I'm bored. And it's like, it would be really funny if I got fat.

And that's just the characters. It was funny. How funny would it be if I just ate like shit for four months straight and just got fat as hell? Hilarious, right? Yeah. Didn't Marky Mark do that? Didn't Wahlberg do that for a role? Get really fat for a role?

If he did, that was probably like makeup. I don't know if he would let himself go like that. I think he did. Let's see. I think he did. For pain and gain, him and The Rock were playing like bodybuilder dudes. Yeah. And they both gained like quite a bit of size for it.

Yeah. I don't think he ever got like fat though, necessarily. But I could be wrong. You're not wrong. He gained like 20. It says 20 pounds. Okay. What was that for?

Yeah. So what was that movie? This could have been for that new movie, Father Stew he did. I don't know if it's specifically that. Yeah. Because I remember reading about how- Wahlberg claims natural too, which is wild. Hmm.

Yeah. 30 pounds for Father Stew. Yeah. There was some guy that I think knew- He could be natural on the left. Ah, yeah. No, he could be. Yeah.

But I think, I forget who it was, but, like, somebody had a list of – some steroid dealer that had, like, a list of customers and leaked it, and he was, like, on the list. And then he was questioned by a reporter, and he just, like – he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm all natural. That's weird that you – it's just a weird – for someone like you who is very well-versed and really understands it. And your show, by the way, for people who don't know, it's called More Plates, More Dates. And it's on YouTube and it's a goofy name, but it's a great show. I'd love to ask you about that direction, by the way, because I've been thinking about should I change it? As I get older, I sort of like –

I don't think you have to. I mean, it's kind of funny. Okay. And everybody knows it. I think it's catchy, but it's like I made it when I was, like, I don't know, like, early 20s. And it's just like, like, clearly as I delve more into the rabbit hole of, like, the science-based community and, like, talk with guys like Huberman and stuff, like, I feel more and more disconnected with what it was, which was just like self-improvement for men, like broad spectrum. Yeah. And I get more into like the professional interactions with guys like you, guys like in the science-based community.

It's like really sometimes I feel like I don't even align with my own like channel name. Like it's weird. Right. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is like everyone knows that name right now. And the problem is like if you did change it, there would be at least a period of time where people were just like, where is he?

Where did he go? Like, why is he this now? There would be confusion. Yeah, like even this episode would be named More Plates, More Dates. Yeah. You're not going to. I don't think it's a problem. I mean, I get it, though.

It's kind of a funny story, though, that you started when you're in your early 20s and yeah you know you know now you're actually more mature and yeah i try to sometimes when i see channels like pewdiepie or some of these these channel names that are just objectively kind of i don't know silly or whatever i'm like oh they did fine so yeah who am i to think i should do differently or something but i think you're fine because everybody knows. They know the story. It's like you've had the channel for a long time. I think it's fine. Look at Mr. Beast.

It's the biggest channel on there. Great example. What does Mr. Beast mean? I think it was his gamer tag when he was – Yeah, exactly. Everyone knows who he is now. Yeah, perfect. I don't think you have to change it.

I think the negatives of changing it outweigh the positives. Okay. Yeah, and also the positive, it's like, it's part of the charm of the show is that it has a goofy name. Because, like, you know, you're obviously saying some very intelligent shit and very knowledgeable shit, but you have the silly more plates, more dates. I feel like there's a barrier to entry that might be higher for the demographic as I age though where it's like Harder to take the I don't know an initial piece of content as a new viewer

You're just like what is this like douchey fucking bodybuilder channel, right? Yeah, but when people listen to you talk also the complete lack of pretension in your production I mean you're sitting there with a fucking air conditioner behind you. What is that? Is that a – It's a sticker, bro. I can't tell. You can't tell what it is? It looks like something that Gru would have in the Minions movie. But it's fine.

I don't think you need to change that. But people like you in the world that you live in where you're constantly examining the efficacy of supplements and of modalities and strategies for fitness and health and longevity and all these different things. For you, when you see people talking about being natural when you – they're clearly not natural. It's offensive, isn't it? Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. For me, it's offensive isn't it yeah definitely yeah for me it's offensive too it's like i get a fit like i rarely talk shit about people yeah but the liver king thing i was like get the fuck out of here yeah the thing that the thing that rubbed me the wrong way the most about it and it's kind of like what compelled me to even make a video was because he was seeking coaching without the disclosure

of what the plan was to do with that help. So it's like I am going to enhance myself, and I'm already enhanced as is, in order to blow up by this exact date. But I'm not going to tell you, even the guy who I'm trying to seek help from potentially, this is what I'm not going to tell you, even the guy who I'm trying to seek help from potentially, like this is what I'm doing with it. So it's like, you're almost like aiding in the fraudulent activity a little bit. And it's just like, I don't know. It just like was crossing the line of, you know, ethics and morals for me a little bit. Yeah, for sure. And it's also, it's just bad when people are very high profile and they're super duper jacked and they're trying to say they just get it from eating kidneys.

Yeah. It's just stupid. It's just not good for anybody. No. You know, anyone like yourself who knows what – that's an unusual amount of muscle for a human body to possess. Yeah. I mean, he's a massive, massive guy.

Yeah, just insulting the intelligence of people who are yeah yeah but the good thing is that though it does like especially the way you covered it you covered it brilliantly and it's a very long and comprehensive video that goes over the entire saga how it began began who he is what he's done all the statements that he's made about being natural on multiple occasions. It illuminates people to the realities of physiques and of this dilemma that we're talking about with like role models and superheroes and these actors who are actors are in the most insulated world. Like it's very brave when an actor just comes out and says their opinions about controversial subjects

or expresses some opinion that's not mainstream because that's dangerous for your career. If you want to make it in show business in Hollywood, what Mark Wahlberg has done is brilliant. He shuts the fuck up. And when he talks, he shuts the fuck up and when he talks he doesn't talk much and he doesn't talk about anything heavy duty and you know occasionally

does and they come down for him they come after him when he does I'm gonna be real careful because if you just start saying look you know look at me look at these guns you don't get like this yeah normally this is not normal you know guys are 21 inch arms like this is not normal how do you think i'm doing steroids like they don't but they don't do it they can't do it they literally can't but if you talk to like a guy like like mark bell's a great example he's telling you i've done steroids my whole life yeah look at the size of him he's giant that's why i got so confused that he didn't think that the liver king was full of shit and that's why I don't know like I don't know if he just really likes him as a human or what his like if he didn't want to call him

out to his face or or what but it's like it was uh I'm having a hard time grasping that he didn't yeah I think that was the case but I know he thinks other people he's friends with or is aware of are natural who look even more insane than the liver king. Like who? Mike O'Hearn. You ever seen him? Yeah. Mike O'Tren. Yeah. I saw that guy on a plane once.

He was on a flight with his dog. He's gigantic. And he says he's natural? Yeah, he even responded to the liver king thing and he was like What? Yeah. Oh my god, he's natural? Yeah, he even responded to the liver king thing, and he was like. What? Yeah. Oh, my God.

He's so big. Yeah. Now, is that possible? Is it possible? That's the thing is, like, you could, like, who knows, man? Fuck. You know, if Coleman looks the way he did, you know, is it possible that this guy could be the hyper extreme outlier?

Isn't Michael Hearn like 50? He's like 53 or something. The thing, though, that's problematic is he does nothing to prove otherwise. He could easily go get a blood test and a drug test and prove people wrong. Like Paul Sklar did. Yeah. Even with Paul, like he still did what I think he was capable of with his

resources to get tested and he showed he went out of his way to do it. But like there was this one guy, Matt Does Fitness, he's seen as like this fake Natty in the fitness industry because he looks amazing at, you know, his body composition and he was just sick of it. So he contacted me

to facilitate like actual drug testing like as if i was a usada entity or something and he put up a budget of money in the thousands of dollars range to get randomly drug tested with urine and concurrent blood testing and like i carried chose all the tests he was getting to be as bulletproofed as possible and we would have a guy literally just show up when he's fucking lifting at home, wherever, pull his blood and get his urine and then test it to prove.

And he's been doing it for like half a year now and concurrently showing that his lifts are not going down. So not only is his body composition staying the same, but his lifts have not changed. And he's passing the drug tests, which are like bulletproof tests facilitated by somebody who's not himself because he's not walking into the lab on his own accord whenever he wants sort of thing.

So I'm not saying that everyone should go do that because that was like a hard thing to coordinate. But that would be like – Who is this guy again? What's his name? Matt Does Fitness. You got him? Yeah. Yeah, so that guy's natural.

That's incredible. But also he looks like he's about 30. How old is that guy? He's like 36, I think. Is he? Yeah. Well, that's extraordinary. That's very difficult to achieve, and that guy must work very hard. He's a genetic freak,

for sure. Excellent genetics, works very hard, but kudos to him for taking all of those tests. Yeah. Like it was like more bulletproof than like actual fucking UFC testing. Now let's follow up with that guy in 15 years and see what he looks like. Right? Because if he can keep that Paul Sklar level of fitness, because Sklar is I think 50, right?

Or 51. Yeah. Like, but that's, it's so funny, the eye test. When you look at someone, you go, that's possible. That's possible.

Like when I look at Paul Sklar, that's possible. When you look at The Rock, you go, get the fuck out of here. Get the fuck. When you look at The Liver King, get the fuck out of here. When you look at that Michael Hearn guy.

Yeah. No, the Michael Hearn example is it's wild that he leans. He doesn't go as hard as Liver King, I guess, in that he's like, but it's weird because he definitely likes to make poke fun at it, even though he will not go out of his way to show any blood testing or do anything to reinforce his natural status other than, oh, look at me at like 15 years old. I'm bigger than you now. So, like, obviously it's just natural progression. It's like, yeah, you're a genetic freak, which is why you look the way you do on gear now.

Right. Exactly. That's a very good point because there's a lot of people that if they took testosterone or they took a bunch of different steroids, they still would look like shit. Yeah. Oh, tons of guys. Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes you'd be shocked that if you walk into a public gym, like who's actually on gear and who's not. Sometimes the guys who are natural look better than the guys on gear. Yeah. Oh tons of guys. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you'd be shocked that if you walk into a public gym like who's actually on gear and who's not. Sometimes the guys who are natural look better than the guys on gear. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Yeah.

Look at that. Imagine saying that you're 53 years old and you're natural and you're built that way. That is crazy. Yeah like that's insulting when you're like.

It's insulting. Yeah. I mean the guys obviously got incredible genetics and obviously works very hard but also. Yeah. Saucy. Yeah. I mean, the guy's obviously got incredible genetics and obviously works very hard. But also, saucer. Yeah. There's a little saucer.

Yeah. He sold some, like, potentially unethical products, too. Oh, what are those? Like, he said duck eggs were, like, far superior to normal eggs, which, I don't know. Like, I haven't even looked into the micronutrient, like, proportions of it to see if that's to be true. Well, they're bigger. But he was selling, like, a duck egg extract product for, like, 700 bucks or something.

And, like, very much implying that it was supporting his physique. Duck egg extract? Why wouldn't you just go get duck eggs? I had a duck egg recently. It was terrible. It was, like, one of those things where it's like, oh, you know, even in cosmetics, they'll take a peptide,

some obscure name, and extract and be like, oh, we put it into this face serum and this thing that came from some natural source. It's like the secret for eternal youth sort of thing. Yeah. It was just like the commercialization of the thing that is not responsible for your physique is like

very, very frowned upon. Yeah, that should be frowned upon. It's very deceptive, you know? I mean, it's one thing if you're actually using those products and you believe in them and this is why you're selling them. But when you're just doing it for a money grab and also you're on the sauce. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that you've done that's really good, that's really important with your channel,

is you've highlighted the horrific negative effects that some people encounter. Yeah. And one of them was this young man, I'd never seen anything like it, this young man that got on steroids and his back. Oh, just exploded. And his chest too, right?

Yeah. Acne like you couldn't believe. Yeah. What is that? Yeah, so some people, they have genetic predispositions that'll make them like either hyper respond sometimes in a positive way, also in the side effect aspect. Like usually the rule will be if you push the envelope and go into like super physiological dosage territory, typically one thing will at least go wrong for you. You will probably have some sort of, I'm not saying this to be always the case because there are like more responsible ways to go about it to minimize the risk of this happening

or potentially avoid it altogether to some extent. But like, you know, hair loss, gynecomastia, acne, et cetera. And this guy, he just had brutal acne breakout after. What's the name of the video so we can take a look at it? It's tough to say because I've done a couple acne videos. You can just type in acne and you'd see, like, at least a few examples on my channel. Just go to more plates. This is the guy's back.

You can see all the scarring. You can see some of the active ones. But, like, this is pretty f***ing desolated, dude. This is his back from the top. And this is his neck and his chest. Soolated, dude. This is his back from the top, and this is his face, oh, his neck and his chest. So pretty, pretty intense, dude. To the point where...

Yeah. There's a few if you just typed in. Yeah, if you just went on the search. Oh, Jesus Christ. Look at that guy with his chest bleeding. The guy in the middle there. What the f***, man? Yeah. That's so crazy. It looks like he got attacked by a shotgun.

Doesn't it? It looks like he got shot. Yeah. There's little holes all over his chest. Yeah. No, it's hard to predict, too, because some of these guys will just end up with brutal acne without having a, like, very.

Yeah, that guy got desolated. Now, is that like the scarring on his back? Yeah. So that was a unique scenario where a lot of people think his gear was just like, because again, it doesn't just come to your responsive gear. It's also the quality of its preparation. Like if you have toxic carrier oils, like unhealthy solvents, you have like a response to it that is unique from another individual or

like it depends on the quality of your product and is why pharmaceutical grade is you know always going to be preferable as well so that makes sense that makes sense so it's not just a steroid itself yeah yeah you're getting cheap shit my god he doesn't even look any different he got That's crazy. He gets a lot of heat because he shows his aftermath, but he used to actually body build pretty intensely, and he had a respectable physique. And is that what he looks like now?

He's off everything now. Does he still have that fucked up back, though? It's getting a lot better because he took Accutane, he came off the gear, et cetera. He claims his source was like a highly vetted pure source. So it's tough to say if it was actually just the gear or if it was just like shit gear plus response to the gear or what. So now he looks pretty natural. Yeah.

And now is that, does he show any photos of his back now? Yeah, he does. Oh, he's still got those fucked up scars all over him yeah i kind of feel for the guy because he does put out uh like information to try and make people people aware of what happened to him but now because he's natural people will very much take that and be like why would you even take gear to look like this it's like that's not what he looked like when he was on gear wow yeah like he had aspirations to be a competitive bodybuilder and do certain things that, you know, it just wasn't in the cards for him genetically, obviously. But, yeah, that was like a wild one.

That whole bodybuilding world is so strange because it literally is impossible to compete without steroids. Yeah. It's impossible. If you're going to be in Mr. Olympia. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. You got to be on shit. Isn't that wild?

Yeah. There's a whole level. Even things like grappling, like jujitsu, which is one of the dirtiest sports. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly the dirtiest combat sport, like openly dirty. There's still people that are clean. Yeah. Like the rotolo

brothers at 19 years old they're fucking they look completely natural yeah and they're assassinating people yeah just natural there's a lot of natural people mikey musumechi yeah natural a lot of them tons of them yeah but not in bodybuilding no and it's wild because it's like the the fitness industry you would think is you know the epitome of health and fitness is the whole point. Right. So it's just so paradoxical where you have this, like, industry built off of portraying a healthy lifestyle, but then you're also doing, like, the most paradoxical unhealthy thing

to your body simultaneously. But then somehow the visual cosmetic representation of the unhealthy drug use portrays a more healthy and, like, vibrant, you know, vitality look to people. It's just like, oh, this Jack guy must be the result of the fitness lifestyle. Yeah. What's the strange thing is like when they're in peak form, they're literally on death's door. Oh, yeah. Their kidneys are like about to fucking peter out and they're just like you know ready to fucking pass out essentially yeah for

people that don't know when you see a bodybuilder on stage and they're fully shredded and ripped and flexing they are so dehydrated they're like ready to black out yeah like there's definitely safer ways to do it but ultimately going down to deathly low body fat levels cutting water doing all these things it's just like there's nothing healthy about it. Like your body was never meant to get there. Fucking ever. Not only that, your body never naturally would keep that amount of mass while you have such low body fat. No, you're like fighting like all, all mechanisms of biology until I get there.

Your body is like, what are you doing to me? Isn't it interesting though, that that to people represents like the ultimate physique. Yeah. Yeah. It's fucked. Like looking like you that to people represents like the ultimate physique? Yeah. Yeah, it's fucked. Like looking like you're dying. That's the ultimate physique. I have a friend that got so lean he couldn't even walk around because his feet, like the padding on the bottom was essentially gone because he had no fat

anywhere. So it was like painful for him to walk and to sit like his ass bones would be like sticking out and he couldn't even like sit on a chair without like padding and stuff. That's crazy. Yeah, it gets nuts. But wouldn't you also imagine that's like massive inflammation in all of his joints and

like that everything is just like on high alert. True, that too. It's just an agony. Yeah, and it's like you're not even able to sleep. God, it's so bad. You're just starving as hell and you're slamming stimulants like Adderall and whatnot to crush your appetite in order to sustain your absurd deficit. There was a family that we knew in California and the husband was just a normal guy with like a regular job and

he decided to enter into a bodybuilding competition and he got got, like, really low body fat and, you know, did the whole deal, did the competition, and then afterwards experienced organ failure and died. Jesus Christ. Yeah, for nothing. Yeah, it's like often. He was a 36-year-old guy who, like, looked great. Yeah.

Oftentimes the wild thing is it's not like a sport that is highly monetizable anyways. Right. Like your prize money will be nothingness unless you're like at the top of the sport. And even then it's like in general, like I know guys who make more money in the fitness industry as just like influencer bros than the most top tier bodybuilders because the bodybuilders are so dedicated to their craft and eating and training and sleeping. They don't even have the mental bandwidth to do anything entrepreneurial outside of that. So they, even though they're the top echelon in the sport, like they, even their earning potential is capped by like the, the, what is imposed on them from the sport to maintain

just this fucking Brontosaurus physique. Yeah. And what, how long can they do that like it depends some of them die in like their late 20s it's fucked jesus yeah yeah and it is no different than anorexia no yeah it's just body dysmorphia they they get so like when you are around those guys like the worst thing anybody could ever say to one of them, like, hey, man, do you lose weight? Yeah. And they'll be like, what the fuck?

What are you saying? Yeah. You think I lost weight? Yeah. What are you saying? And, like, it'll fuck with their, even if they're massive, they're gigantic. Yeah. And it's like, ultimately, I think the liver king thing is, like, a hyper extreme, like, perfect example of that very situation like i believe he had like extreme

body dysmorphia just like most bodybuilders wanted to juice it up even though it's like contrary to what he is promoting in his ancestral ways and just hope people wouldn't find out honestly i don't i'm giving that much benefit of the doubt i think i think what he was doing was just pure deception i i don't think there's body dysmorphia involved. I think even if he wasn't promoting it, though, he would have still looked like that and done that stuff. I bet he would have looked close

because I think, didn't you go back to his early, early Instagram? He's definitely incentivized to push it harder when he's a front-facing public figure. I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying I do believe he would not just be on therapeutic HRT if it wasn't for, even if it wasn't for the message.

Like, I think he very much enjoys, like, progressing and getting a good physique and looking the way he does. Right, yeah, you might be right about that. Which is, like, what a lot of bodybuilders ultimately, when they get into this, it's not, typically it's not for, like, oh, I just want to win Mr. Olympia. For some of them, very few, potentially that is the end goal, but it often stems from like an insecurity of your, you know, whatever it is

from your youth or you feel your physique is inadequate, whatever it is. And then you compensate aggressively by going like hardcore into the, you know, chemical enhancement realm, even at the detriment of your own health in order to look a certain way. Yeah. And that's where that whole thing about him being a charlatan from your video comes into play because he's selling this ancestral line of supplements where it's all or. And also, I have a friend who is very knowledgeable about this stuff and he expressed some concern. And I actually reached out to Paul about this, Paul Saladino. And Paul says that it's very, very little concern. And I actually reached out to Paul about this, Paul Saladino. And Paul says that it's very, very little concern. But he was saying that when you're dealing with organ meat

and you're like, there's possibilities of getting prions involved. And this was where mad cow disease came to play. You're talking about like cow brains and all these different things. He was concerned. And this is a very knowledgeable person. I reached out to Paul. Paul, he gave me a very knowledgeable and really well thought out response. And particularly where they get their organs, everything is grass fed, grass finished. It's all pasture raised animals that are raised in the most natural of conditions. Are you talking about like the raw organ meats they eat on camera or like literally the actual supplements? Yeah, the actual supplements.

Oh, shit. Yeah. Now, my friend, by the way, my friend is not involved in the organ supplement business, so maybe he doesn't understand how it's run. But he's like, when you deal with organs, you're opening up the door for, you don't know where, if you don't absolutely know the source of these organs. But no one's disputing whether or not organs are good for you. Organs, they're so good for you.

Heart and kidney and particularly liver, so good for you. And that's what's hopefully the outcome isn't at the detriment of that message too because it's like I hope people don't just take like the liver king debacle as like everything he said was nonsense because he had a lot of good information, like a lot of stuff that was motivating, stuff that could have been implemented to improve your quality of life, health, vitality, et cetera.

It's just unfortunate the way he went about doing it. The real liver king is Paul Saladino. He's really eating that. Go to Paul Saladino's Instagram. Show some pictures of his physique. If you want to look like that guy, no hormone replacement. Just get sunlight outside. He's super healthy.

All he eats is organic fruits and meat and organ meat. And that's it. Yeah. And one thing I think Paul would be on board with, but is like, just because it's not ancestrally consistent to be on exogenous synthetic TRT, it's not like, it's not like you should live in a suboptimal state or quality of life because you're trying to be ancestrally consistent. Right. Look at Paul. That's healthy. That's real. Like what that guy's built like, that is 100% natural and achievable.

And he really does. Like he lives in Costa Rica. He surfs every day. He eats nothing but healthy food. I feel like our podcast, it's the thumbnails on the bottom right there. But I grilled him pretty hard on like, in a respectful way, I felt, of like a lot of incongruencies or concerns about, you know, the diet model and like, you know, micronutrient shortcomings. Like there are certain more difficult things to get in through like a nose to tail diet like magnesium. And like we touched on a lot of that stuff.

And does he recommend supplementation with magnesium to compensate for that? Or how does he handle that? He thinks that the RDAs for them, like many other vitamins and minerals, are potentially off because he does a lot of blood chemistry to see where he's at. And he's quite hyper aware of his biofeedback and kind of knows what's going on. And he's never been deficient from what he can tell. So he believes that like if warranted, I'm sure he would recommend it, but he thinks that he gets enough from his diet, but he's not opposed to supplementation when warranted. There are certain individuals who might benefit from, I don't know, extra choline if they, you know, if it, like if your diet too is,

even if it's nose to tail, if you're trying to lose weight or something and you're in like a little bit of a deficit or whatever, like maybe you might be a little bit deficient in one micronutrient and then it's justified to take a supplement with it. Like I'm sure he would be on board with that. And that is the whole premise of, you know, the supplements to begin with is if you don't want to eat like a fucking heart, like here's heart. Right, right, right. And the fact that you could swallow it very easily and mix it with all your other supplements.

What is a natural source of magnesium? Off the top of my head, as far as what I would say is like the most magnesium-dense foods. It's tough to say off the top of my head. I kind of forget exactly. You know the best way to get it? Yeah, like for me, I use a magnesium bisglycinate supplement personally just because I use this thing called chronometer and I plug my diet in. And then it shows a full breakdown of my micronutrient proportions in terms of minerals as well as micronutrients like all the vitamins. And for me, it's even difficult to get my magnesium in.

So it's like if I need to backfill that with a supplement, like I feel it justified. Do you ever do Epsom salt baths? No, never. That's a great way to get magnesium. Oh, is it? Yeah. It's one of the things that I found from doing the isolation tank. Because a sensory deprivation tank has 1,000 pounds of magnesium in that water.

Okay. We have just bags of Epsom salts. It's all fucking magnesium. So you're pouring that stuff into the water and then you, you float in it. And it like, there's a, an article on,

um, magnesium from Epsom salts baths. And you can like, your skin absorbs it. Yeah. It's, I mean, I don't know if it's enough and how often you'd have to do it,

but I know that a lot of people get a benefit from Epsom salts baths. It's supposed to be very good for the muscles. What is that, Jamie? No evidence. No evidence it absorbs? Yeah. Interesting. While relaxing in a hot bath may help soothe aching muscles, there's no evidence that people absorb bathwater magnesium through their skin. Interesting. If you look up the molecular mass of magnesium, I would be doubtful that it's

low enough to actually absorb transdermally. Oh, that's interesting. There's this rough rule. It's like if the molecular mass of a molecule is under 500 Daltons, then it can absorb through the skin and get absorbed. Go back to what you just said. Look at this. Magnesium can be absorbed through the skin for a convenient and effective way to increase your magnesium levels. When magnesium is absorbed through the skin, this process is called transdermal absorption.

From a company that sells a topical magnesium product. Is that what it is? Type in magnesium molecular mass and then just see what comes up. Interesting. It's so funny why you can read stuff like that and just think that that's – Yeah, molecular weight. Okay, here we go. Okay.

What does that mean? So like from the surface, you would think that this is something that could absorb transdermally. Because it's, what is that number? 24.305U? What does that mean? Like, I'm more familiar with. Atomic mass units? Yeah, with Daltons. I know like the 500 number is the threshold whereby it's supposed to be able to absorb, which I think is like also written as grams per mole on the top of my head. So with that level, you believe it is absorbable transdermally?

I would think. So why did that other- Not my expertise, by the way. I appreciate that. But isn't it funny though that like the first result was it can't be absorbed, and the second result was it can. And then you look at the molecular weight, and you looked at it, and you're like, well, it looks like it can.

Yeah. Exercise performance and recovery while relaxing in a hot bath may help soothe aching muscles. There's no evidence that people absorb bathwater magnesium through the skin. On the other hand, oral supplementation can affect this. But this is the same article. No, no, no. That's where it came from.

I was trying to find out why they were saying it. What year is this? That was Healthline. 2017. Interesting. I don't know if they're right. I bet they're a bunch of nerds that don't even lift. Shut your mouth, nerds.

What kind of biohacks do you do nowadays besides the... The big one that I've been doing that I actually just started doing all this week is cold plunge first thing in the morning. I had read this thing about this guy and then I read some subsequent articles. Then I talked to Huberman about it, about there's a great benefit to cold plunge before exercise. All right. And so there is a negative association between cold plunge and hypertrophy. So what that means is that if you lift weights and you just climb right into the cold plunge right afterwards,

you actually have less of a benefit from lifting weights because the cold and the anti-inflammation properties actually stop the hypertrophy. So the recommendation was always lift weights and then wait multiple hours before you get into the cold plunge. I really like the cold plunge after cardio. Cardio was a big one for me. But I also know that there's a great benefit to sauna after cardio because it actually sustains your heart rate.

So it's like static aerobic exercise yeah so if you do um say like if i'll do i really like sprints on the rogue echo bike you know it's like a salt bike i love doing tabatas on that so i'll do the 20 second with 10 second rest and then i'll go right into the sauna so it's like you're 185 degrees and your heart's already pounding because you just got off the bike and it's fucking brutal. But I've noticed an increase in my cardiovascular capability because of that. And then what I would do is I'd get into the cold plunge after I was done with all that. So I'd do 20 minutes in the sauna.

And then at 185 degrees and then go right into 34 degrees right after that and do three minutes into the cold plunge. and then go right into 34 degrees right after that and do three minutes into the cold plunge. Now I've been starting my morning, every morning, as soon as I decided I was going to do it the whole month, the moment I wake up, I just get out of bed, I put my fucking flip-flops on, and I walk out to the cold plunge. It's fucking 40 degrees outside, and I just take off my clothes, and I just climb in there for three minutes every goddamn morning. And I set my phone right at the top of the thing, and I put the fucking stopwatch on.

I go, here we go. And it's rough. You know what's rough, man? When I first wake up, I don't enjoy waking up anymore because I enjoy waking up, but then there's just nervousness. It's like shit. So today's Friday, so I've done it five days in a row. But it's this fucking awful feeling that you know you're going to have to do this. Once you're done, though, you're probably like hyper alert and ready to roll.

Oh, yeah. Hyper alert, ready to roll. You feel pretty fucking good. But also, I did something I didn't want to do, which I think is – for someone like me that deals with a lot of pressure and stress and anxiety from just being in the public eye and all that stuff, I firmly believe that you need something way worse to counter that that you voluntarily subject yourself to. Has it always been – like when did that really – has it ramped up more in recent years or have you kind of like perpetually dealt with that since being, I don't know, like you've been a public facing person for like a long time. It's like a trickle. Like I've had a trickle of stardom. It's like slowly ramped up and it's almost like snake venom. Like I've got a little more bitten enough so that I can tolerate it. Yeah. Because I've seen people that are really young that get really famous quickly, and it just wrecks them.

It wrecks them psychologically. And also they don't understand how to manage the input, right? So they're, like, reading comments about them. They're, like, tweeting and then responding to tweets and going back and forth with people in Instagram comments like, do-do-do- dude, dude, stop. You still do that, eh? You ignore them entirely.

I don't fucking read a goddamn thing. It's the only way. It's the only way you can stay sane. You know, my friend's like, I can't help myself. I'm like, you 100% can help yourself. It's just don't look at it. It's not an option. I don't have that option.

There's no option to look at that. I post stuff. I keep going. option there's no option to look at the post stuff i keep going yeah you know and i think that's very important because you're dealing with you know with my case on my instagram i think it's like 15 million people that's a lot of fucking people man that's too many people there's no way you can that's manageable you can't interact with those people people could say mean shit to you and it'll hurt your feelings why would you subject yourself to that? But I think even like articles written about you, you have to have perspective.

You have to understand like who's right. Why are they doing this? They're doing this because you're successful. They're distorting who you are in order to make this look better. So you have to do something, I believe, something to offset that. And one of the best things is really brutal exercise. Brutal physical exercise and then sauna and cold plunge, in my opinion, are the very best things to mitigate the effects of that. Because they're so hard to do that the other stuff just seems easy. It's like, so someone said something mean about you.

Like, whatever. the other stuff just seems easy it's like so someone said something mean about you like whatever have you ever had like like uh a time you just had to totally disconnect from everything to mentally handle it or no no no pretty good about yeah just don't read about me yeah let's read about other stuff i mean i feel like you're supposed to you know look there's people that live in war-torn parts of the world there's's people that were born in dirt floors, and they're dealing with rebels, and they hear gunfire in the middle of the night, and their children get killed, or their family members get killed. That's real problems.

Yeah. The problems of someone saying mean shit about you on Twitter, it only seems mean. It seems awful because you're interacting with it if you don't interact with it it doesn't even exist it's wild how much just your state of mind can influence like how happy or not happy your life is and like how you perceive external stimuli very very much so and also the kind of people that you surround yourself with yeah that's crucial you have to have a good tribe. You have to have a good tribe of fun, healthy people.

If you don't, you're fucked. If you have backstabby people or gossipy people or mean people or resentful people or you're constantly dealing with somebody who's like, you know, always fucking falling off the wagon. You got to go rescue Mike. He's under a bridge shooting heroin. Fuck. If you have enough of those people in your life,

they will derail any progress you're trying to make, any self-improvement and self-growth. I think, obviously, you should be there for your friends if something goes wrong, but you've got to recognize when this is an unstoppable pattern. I'm not just talking about addiction. I'm talking about everything. For some people, it's gambling. gambling with some people it's food and some people it's just just fucking some

people are they just sabotage their lives yeah and if you're around that person they're always sabotaging their life and they always expect you to come in and fix it for them like they they can absorb a significant amount of your resources on On the other hand, if you have friends that are positive and healthy and thankful and appreciative and they're fun to be around and those people can enhance your life, you enhance their life and everybody grows together and everybody has a good time together. That's a big key to being able to manage this stuff. As you've exploded, did you like have a conscious shift towards that yeah yeah i learned well i've always like been a very loyal friend and i think that's

very important to have good friends and it's very it's also very important to like say i come from the martial arts world in the martial arts world you need training partners yeah and without training partners you never get better. You want elite people around you so that you have to hold yourself up to the standards of their technique and their abilities. And it's the only way you get better. You get better by being in an environment with a bunch of killers. Iron sharpens iron. So when I was a kid, from the time I was young young we always valued people who were very very good

You never tried to pretend they weren't good You always valued them and you always looked at their like all he's the best at this like watch how he does this and then You would learn and grow from imitating them or asking them like most of my martial arts techniques that I learned Know all of them all of them. I learned, no, all of them, all of them, I learned from other people, all of them. I never learned anything on my own. Never figured out anything. And nothing I do is original. Everything that I learned how to do, somebody had to teach me how to do it.

So I needed someone who was like really good at something that could show me how to do it. So when I got into comedy, one of the things that was so shocking was like there's this like denial of other people's value or like, why is he getting this? Or why is she so successful? Why my mentality was this martial arts mentality. Like, look how good he is at marketing. Like, look how good he is at deliver.

Look how he holds a pause. Like, man, look at that stage presence. Look at that. Look how relaxed he is up there. And it was like, I wanted to compliment them.

I'm like, dude, how you do that is amazing. Like, what do you do? Do you consciously do that do you write how do you because like i wanted to treat it like i'm supportive yeah and in the the word with the weird world of television and comedy it was a scarcity and a famine mentality because there was only so many jobs right so if you wanted to be on a sitcom if you and I say we're in the audition room

and we're both playing Tom, the fucking security guy on a sitcom, if I knew that you're my friend and you're reading, I might fucking derail you. I might say, you look like shit, Derek. What are you, fucking losing weight? You'd say some gross things to each other. Or you'd be, that person doesn't represent a colleague and a friend. That person represents the fucking barrier that's going to keep you from success. You want to be in that house in the Hollywood Hills driving a fucking Corvette.

Come on, baby. You know, you've got to succeed. And that mentality fucked with comedians for a long time. Then the internet came along. And what the internet showed everybody is like, no, no, no. These people are assets. You have them on your podcast. Your podcast is better.

And then you tell people about their podcast, and their podcast is good. So now people listen to you. If you say, hey, go see Tom Segura. He's fucking hilarious. People go see him. You're honest. You tell the truth like he's really good and so then it's good for everybody so he blows up you blow up and then we all help each other together so one of the great things about comedy now is that we have essentially like an organic network right instead of a network that we're all on under contract and you know everyone has to give X percentage to this and that to that.

And no, no, no executives. No, no. It's an organic network of people who are just friends who support each other. And we just get together and have a good time. Is there any path like as you got to comedy? Like, obviously, you've done a bunch of different trajectories like you did the reality show thing. You're an actor. You've done a bunch of different trajectories. Like you did the reality show thing. You're an actor. You did like a bunch of different stuff. Is there any path that you, in hindsight, wish you leaned into harder or like fleshed out more?

No, no, definitely not. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, I think it was good to do Fear Factor just because it made me realize I don't ever want to do that again. It was just for money. Because Fear Factor was something that was a great job. I'm very happy that I got it. I worked with some great people. It was a for money because the fear factor was something was a great job very happy that I got it I worked with some great people was a lot of fun Matter of fact, I was just hanging out with one of the guys that I did it with the other day but

That was only for money. I can only did it for money like podcasts are fun like stand-up comedy is fun That's the most fun stand-up comedy is the most fun UFC commentary is fun. It's fun. It's more fun to watch. More fun to just watch fights. But commenting on fights, you get to watch from, like, right there. Like, the fence is, like, right here in front of you.

It's pretty fucking amazing. But no, none of those things. I'm definitely glad I got the acting out of my system. I don't like doing that. I don't like that. It's the least fun. Yeah. I think some of, like, obviously I'm just speaking objectively got the acting out of my system. I don't like doing that. I don't like that. It's the least fun. Yeah. I think some like obviously I'm just speaking objectively from what I see.

But some of the most like hyper successful individuals like yourself, it's being like hyper talented. But then also like fortuitous timing and a lot of different scenarios potentially. And like there is some luck involved. Yeah. I'm wondering, like, if you were to be like there's so much pressure on social media now for young guys, especially at younger and younger ages to be like this crazy successful entrepreneurial individual, even when they're like fucking teenagers or something. And what would you if you were to go back and be a teenager or a young 20s guy now and you're starting from scratch, how would you approach it? It's so much different. It's so hard to say because when you're under the public eye of social media and even if you just have a small account with like 500 followers, you still are under the public eye because something you say can go viral and then either you blow up or you're fucked.

Like either one of those scenarios is possible. So managing your life today is so much more problematic. It's so much more difficult. I couldn't imagine being a teenager in high school with a fucking TikTok account. Yeah. Like we could just say wild shit. How about that guy who was a football player who got denied a scholarship because he was singing along to the lyrics in a rap video and he said the n-word so there's a video of him singing along to a song he likes and they kicked

him out of the college that's fucking wild when was that recent very recent yeah and he's like top draft pick like an elite quarterback fuck yeah somebody else gonna pick him up or i don't know hope so yeah i hope so but i mean imagine i mean that could change the trajectory of his entire life yeah because he was 15 and he thought he would he wanted he was just rapping along to a video like how do you they're saying it why can't i say it like you know you're fucking your frontal lobes aren't even formed at 15 yeah and to hold that kid to that from that moment for the rest of his life and that's just one example there's so many examples of people ruining their fucking life on social media because they don't know any better because they're fucking 14 or whatever and it's

like i wouldn't i wouldn't want that i can't imagine. I couldn't imagine growing up with that kind of connection to people. And I think in some ways it discourages people taking chances. It discourages people really finding themselves and how to express themselves. Like if every stand-up set you ever did from the beginning of your first open mic was online and available to people that's horrendous yeah yeah i guess all like the crash and burns and all like the trial area yeah that was yeah and then if you read those comments like you fucking suck quit quit now like that get in your head you know for sure you can't move past it most of my bombings like all my bombings really were just in these weird fucking nights and weird

places and you get over it and you move on you just go oh that one sucked you know that one i shouldn't have got drunk or that one i was too tired or that one i was too green or that one i couldn't follow that guy and these are all lessons that you learn but you don't want them you don't want to dwell on them constantly because if you do you will put yourself back in the mindset of that person who you were when you were failing which i think is just like very detrimental to growth like you got to be aware of shortcomings and failures but you can't dwell if you dwell on them then you're maintaining this mindset of a person who just failed years after that failure. Yeah.

That was a long time ago. Like, you got to move on. Yeah. And if you don't move on, you're going to get stuck. And some people, look, there's some people that get stuck in high school forever. Yeah. Forever. We know those stories.

They had failures in high school. Maybe they got beat up in high school. Maybe they were an asshole and they got their comeuppance in front of the whole school and they never recovered. Yeah. They never recovered. Maybe they were a dick

and they were talking shit to some guy and he just beat the shit out of him in front of everybody and they're like, no. And every day that guy wakes up, fuck!

Years later and thinks about this failure. No, it's wild how like the earlier stuff happens and it seems to like very much affect the trajectory of your life. Yes. Like very significantly. Years later and thinks about this failure. No, it's wild how like the earlier stuff happens It seems to like very much affect the trajectory of your life. Yeah, like very significantly very significantly High school is a big one man Because it's like you're changing from a kid to a person to an adult like you it's in in that process

So many mistakes are made see the wild thing is how even at your level of success you trying to wrap your head around What you would do as a young guy, you can't even fucking fathom it. Imagine how overwhelmed some clueless 18-year-old kid is. I can't imagine. It's terrible for them. I think it's really terrible. And it's so

available. And also, it's addictive. It's not like something that's available that you don't really need to go to all the time. Everyone carries a goddamn phone with them everywhere they go. So you're always connected to this. And kids are ruthless how they talk shit about each other on the internet. Oh, my God.

They're so mean. Yeah, I wouldn't want to live like that. But who knows? I mean, maybe it's one of those things where the way I've described it in the past is like I grew up in the Northeast and I wouldn't trade that for the world because there's something about growing up in a place where it fucking snows, where it's cold as shit and the winter miles and negative 10 degrees. That builds a resistance or a resilience rather in a person that is – I don't think it's replaceable. I don't think you can get that. I mean you certainly could develop discipline and you could certainly develop resilience if you live somewhere else, especially if you have a hard childhood. Those people develop a lot of resistance and a lot of resilience but there's something about growing up in harsh climates that develops a specific type of character character a person that values hard work and you get shit done and it's like very

common to uh people that live in like the northeast in boston i wonder if like kids growing up today are it's like a technological winter like they are developing a resilience like a psychological resilience if they survive it yeah they don't fucking commit suicide which a lot of kids do today like suicide and self-harm is up quite a bit yeah jonathan hayden has a book about it it's called the coddling of the American Mind. And in it, that's one of the things they discuss is that particularly with girls, suicide and self-harm ramps up considerably around the time of social media's invention, around the time of the iPhone. So maybe these kids today that are growing up are growing up with like the wintertime equivalent of resilience, but through the internet, you know?

Yeah, some of these, like, I've been more, as I become more successful, I've been exposed to more successful people, those who are self-made, but also those who aren't and have been like trust fund babies or whatever. and have been like trust fund babies or whatever. And there's definitely a huge differentiation between the mindset or the mentality of those who have gone through adversity or hard times versus those who have been like silver platter to them essentially. And it definitely does fuck them up, I think. Like even the ones who are successful but didn't have to go through the hard upbringing or make it through challenges that otherwise have been – they've just like coasted through essentially because they've never been imposed.

It's never been imposed on their lives at all. There's no comparison. Yeah. That description of a self-made man. Everybody wants to be a self-made man. I mean there's no real self-made man. I mean everybody has help from everybody. But the reality is there's a giant difference between growing up poor

and then eventually becoming rich versus growing up super wealthy and then being given money and working hard to sustain that money. It's just not the same. You're like concrete that's like missing an ingredient. Yeah. And you don't really know if you could have done it on your own. And I'm sure you can attest to the fact that like there definitely is like a neurological component to like it's called the hedonic treadmill. And it's like your new set point becomes just what your baseline expectation is of what makes you feel satisfied. And then anything you need some heightened level of success to feel that like dopamine hit or level of achievement again, even if your baseline is like some absurdly good achievement as is.

again, even if your baseline is like some absurdly good achievement as is. Whereas back in the day, if you got like, you know, 20 bucks an hour for some job, like you would have been fucking stoked. Like back in the day, I used to make like eight bucks an hour, like picking up like golf balls on the driving range. Like for me back then, it was like money. Fuck yeah. Like, this is great. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's just like that, I don't know, like adapting to that and being able to go from like zero to my hero. But just like the step by step is like what gives you the reward, gives you the mental progress and achievement that I think makes like a cumulatively just like a well-rounded human as opposed to the guys who are just like, here you go. Like you're already up here from get go sort of thing. Yeah. And you also can remember when you were poor, which is very valuable. Yeah, it makes you way more grateful. Way more grateful.

I remember all my terrible jobs. I really do. What was the worst one? I had a job with my friend Jimmy Lawless for, like, only a couple of weeks. Maybe it was a little longer than that. But I was working on a construction crew in the summer building a wheelchair ramp at a Knights of Columbus Hall in Massachusetts. And I think I was probably like 16, 17 at the time, somewhere in that range. And I was carrying cement and pressure-treated lumber all day long.

That's all I did lumber all day long. That's all I did. All day long I carried cement bags and pressure treated lumber because I was a laborer. I wasn't skilled. So all day long you're carrying these lumber and you get these splinters in your hand from this pressure treated lumber. So pressure treated lumber

is lumber that's been soaked in some awful fucking chemical and then you're carrying that it's heavy as fuck and then you're carrying cement bags and i remember uh going to the gym at night after a work day you know so you get off work at 3 30 or whatever it is yeah and then i go to the gym and i'd be like this is like i had nothing i remember hitting the bag and just be like, oh, my God. I was trying to do fighting. Well, after that, like not just like weight training. That would be fucking brutal.

I was competing. Jesus. Yeah, I was still competing. In hindsight, isn't it almost more impressive what you think about what you did when you were grinding versus now sometimes? Like sometimes I think back to how I balanced university, my shitty jobs, going on dates, like doing all this stuff. I was like, how the fuck did I also like work out like very consistently, get all my meals and be regimented? And then you think back to now when you ever give yourself an excuse for something, you're like, you pathetic piece of shit. Like, remember what you used to do?

You never complained back then. I know. But there's something about hunger. There's something about the grind of want. You know, God, I want it to work out. I want to be great. I want this. I want that.

And that grind of wanting something, it's like it fuels you in a way that nothing else is capable of fueling you. Yeah. That's what makes me wonder if Conor could ever make a successful comeback as I feel like that level. No, he could. He certainly could. The reason why Floyd Mayweather was still elite even at the top of his game, I don't think you ever forget where you came from. Some people do.

Some people definitely get soft. That was the Marvin Hagler quote. He would say how difficult it is to run the cold when you're waking up in silk sheets. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, Hagler took steps to mitigate that. Hagler used to train out of Provincetown, which was on the Cape. So he would go out to the Cape Cod in the middle of the winter and run with combat boots in the fucking sand.

Like he separated from his family. He would go into like this fucking Spartan training camp. That was his way of staying hard. You know, I think Conor could still do it. The real question for me with Conor is what's going on with his leg. Yeah. Was he as like a titanium fucking platen now? Yeah.

His leg snapped in half. Leg snapped in half, and no one, and I mean no one, in combat sports has had their leg snap in half and come back and been the same or better. Anderson Silva's leg was fucked. Corey Hill was the first guy in the UFC that I saw get his leg snapped, and he never really was the same again. I don't even know if he fought again, and then Corey died young, unfortunately. And then the next one was Anderson and the next one was Chris Weidman. Anderson did fight again, but he was never the same again. And Chris Weidman has yet to fight. I don't know if Chris Weidman spoke publicly about his leg and the recovery.

See if that's the case because Conor actually brought it up when someone was asking him about USADA. Connor actually brought it up when someone was asking him about USADA. Yeah, he was like, it almost seemed like he was justifying drug use at some point. It was kind of wild. It seemed exactly like that. He was like, you don't know what this is like. I took myself out of the pool. Everything's on board. And it was very suggestive of this was within the rules and I had to do it.

And fuck you if you don't agree with my decision sort of thing. Not only that, he's taking his shirt off and posing constantly. And he looks like his piss would melt that USADA cup. It would just burn a hole right to the bottom of that USADA cup. Yeah, if there's ever been speculation. Was this Wonderboy? Yeah, eight months ago on Wonderboy's channel, there's a video of him training and kicking, I guess. Oh, great.

I wonder how it's doing though. So here he's training, so maybe he's getting ready to work out again, or maybe getting ready to fight again, preparing for Wonderboy. But the thing is, it's like there's a big difference between training and really

being confident enough in the shin to test it, like getting kicked. So let's see. See, he's just touching. They're touching right here. This is the kind of sparring that he's doing here. It's called technical sparring. You're just kind of tapping each other. You're almost like playing tag.

and you're just kind of tapping each other. You're almost like playing tag. Even if your leg was to have the structural integrity to sustain an actual fight, what is the implications of walking around with a plate in it? Is that unfair? Well, that's interesting because I had David. Look at that leg when it snapped. Jesus Christ.

I'm coming back, baby. Watch Chris Weidman test out his leg after brutal injury. I had David Goggins on the podcast yesterday, back baby watch chris weidman test out his leg after brutal injury um i had david goggins on the podcast yesterday and goggins um he he's such a fucking freak of discipline and his ability to tolerate pain is like no one i've ever talked to he had bone on bone on his knees to the point where it distorted the shape of his bone, where his bones were like distorting to deal with the fact that there was no meniscus there and it was like growing off in a weird way.

So the way they mitigated that is they had to cut a wedge out of his shin and then they lowered that bone down to make it parallel and flat with the uh with the tibia jesus it's crazy and you see these screws that are in there and he's got this plate and he screws and he said every step he takes he feels that plate damn every step he said it's it sucks everywhere i I feel that plate. So it's just the new normal to him is every time he steps, he feels a plate. That's his leg. Fuck.

Yeah. And he says it presses against his hamstring as well. So it's like constant discomfort. And look at that one screw that pops out the side. Like, trim that, bitch. Why are you letting that thing stick all the way out? We had the other one too, right? Two of them Why are you letting that thing stick all the way out? We had the other one, too, right? Two of them.

But, like, see how the wedge is missing? Like, that little wedge slice right there, his knee would go up on the side. So he was almost, like, bow-legged. Fuck. Yeah. But look at this. There's no spacing in the fucking knees, man.

Yeah. The guy runs 240-mile races with those knees see the wild thing to me about him too and it's like perhaps he's like fully elucidated this in his book or in it podcasts and i'm just you know i haven't seen it but like he used to be out of shape yeah and then all of a sudden like switch flips and he's just the most hyper-disciplined individual of all time, essentially. Like, what was the catalyst for that, like, mindset shift? Like, has he discussed that in detail? Yeah, well, he slowly figured it out.

But, like, the first steps that he made, I mean, the first time he ever ran, look at how fat he was at one point in time. The first time that he ever ran, he said he ran like around the block and he fucking couldn't go any further. He was exhausted. He was eating terrible food and drinking milkshakes every day and was just working as an exterminator. Yeah. He's got two books. One of them is called Can't Hurt Me. That's the first one.

Yeah. And this is the new one. It's called Never Finished. And this comes out on December 6th. Okay. And this one is even more rough. It's even more rough than the first book. It's fucking Never Finished, and this comes out on December 6th. And this one is even more rough. It's even more rough than the first book. It's fucking rough, man.

His life was rough. And those demons, like, propel him every day. And now he's in this place where he's known as, like, literally the hardest motherfucker that's ever lived. Like, that's who he is. He's this guy that will run, like,'s that's who he is he's this guy that will run like you know 20 fucking ultra marathons in a month just to show people that it's possible and that is like a burden too because now you're you're constantly attached

to this thing where you have to push it to the end and then you see his body is falling apart it's crazy how some of the most successful people seem to have, like, chips on their shoulder that they use to, like, propel them mentally. And it's like, I don't know if that's, like, I've done that too, personally. Like, try to, even in the gym, sometimes you think of fucked up shit to get through that last, like, rep. Yeah. And it's like, is that, I don't know, is that the healthy thing to do? Like, I don't even know. I don't know what's the healthy thing to do.

Is that the healthy thing to do? I don't even know. I don't know what's the healthy thing to do. I mean, I would think I would also – oftentimes when I'm doing sprints on the bike and I'm really tired, I think about getting tapped out because I have a bunch of memories in my head of different guys who caught me in triangles, and this guy caught me in an arm bar. And sometimes you get caught just because you're too tired.

Like you see it coming, and you just can't step over the leg. You can't pull your arm out, and then you wind up getting tapped. You're like, fuck. And you know you got tapped because you were too tired. You know what the defense was, but you weren't able to implement it because you were too exhausted. So I think of those moments a lot of times when I'm training. When I'm just in the middle of a sprint, I want to like slide.

I don't know if that's good or bad. I mean, I think it's positive in that it's making me do that extra work. And that extra work is ultimately beneficial. So I use it as fuel. And for David, one of the things we got into when we talked about it on a podcast is going to come out the day the book is released. One of the things that we talked about is that he literally reads out things his haters say in comments and records it oh so he does and then reads the comments and then listens to it while he runs but he's a psycho yeah i would not recommend that and i don't know if it's the

opposite to your approach yeah but he's he lives a different life like it's it's a very performance based life it's not like an interactive life and it's not like he's he doesn't he hasn't done a podcast since he did mine Like he's last podcast I did he was fucking last possible. I did was like four years ago fuck these podcasts He's like, but I like you I'll do yours like he's just he's different like David exists in this world where he is out there pushing himself beyond the limitations of the average human being. Like, way beyond. In terms of, like, his tolerance for pain. And he believes he's extracting lessons from that. Like, he likes the suffering because he learns about himself in that suffering.

And he continues to grow through that suffering Like that's what he does like all day long man, so he doesn't get stressed about the comments or anything He just goes like procures the best shitty ones. Yeah, and then uses that to be like fuck these people. Yeah Yeah, taking souls. That's what he says taking souls. Those motherfuckers see out there taking a soul It's like why are you out here running because you're not motherfucker and he keeps running like he's got a he's got a chip on his shoulder as big as the fucking empire state building but that's did you leave the podcast fired up yeah man i left that book fired up you read that book you want to run through a fucking

i texted him i said dude i'm ready to run through a fucking wall reading this book he's he is like one of the best sources of motivational strength i've ever encountered because it's all real and most people didn't even know how fucked up his knees were like until he let us show those pictures like most people didn't even know what he was going through like that that kind of pain is insane his doctor said to him i can't believe you can walk on these knees forget about run thousands of miles like that's the amount of fluid they pulled out of his knee and the black fluid on the left what was he saying is deoxygenated yeah or unoxygenated i don't know the yeah it's just fucking clots and clumps and that was all from his knee, man. He's never gone to the realm of what could attenuate.

Like, as far as I know, he's not on TRT or done anything to. It's like, why, though? Like, I'm just. Like, he imposes so much stress on his body. Yeah. It's wild that he has not explored it or anything. Yeah. I wonder if he would now.

I mean, I believe he's 45 now. Like, even just recovery agents, not even the TRT stuff, like peptides, stem cells, whatever. Right. I don't know. Well, it certainly could help, and maybe it would have saved his knees. But maybe not.

You know, the volume, the sheer volume of pounding and all the shit he does. You know he fights wildfires No, yeah for fun I'm not kidding no I know months at a time. He he's a Wildfire he's a smokejumper. Hmm, so they take him out. That's him jumping out of a fucking I guess airplane and parachutes down into these woodland areas where there's firefighters.

Jesus. Yeah, man. He sent me a picture. He goes, this one's going to be fucked up. He sent me a picture of a fucking polar bear that someone had spotted near one of these places where they're getting dropped off. Because when you're in northern Canada, some of the areas where people get dropped off yeah that's him yeah we have brutal forest fires and like northern Canada yeah brutal let me

let me send you these pictures that he sent me because they're so crazy and one of them he was parachuting into a place where there was a grizzly bear. And he's like, they found a grizzly bear. I'm like, no, don't go, man. What are you doing? So. Yeah, there's some of the fires. So here's one he sent me that's a polar bear. We're going to take a piss. Yeah, go ahead.

Go ahead. Take a piss. We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen. Images of polar bears. Obviously, his priority would be, would be injury-proofing himself, getting back in there. He very much wants to get back and have a run, for sure. So welcome back from peeing. So we were just talking about Conor McGregor's injury.

The weird thing is that there's a loophole in USADA that allows you to get out of the testing pool. And get out of the testing pool and get out of the testing pool. You could just juice up. Yeah. Most of the guys weren't even aware. Apparently. Like, I think it was, uh, Anthony Smith who does the show with BizGang. Yeah.

He was like, I didn't even know you could fucking do that. It seems weird. And you just need six months. Like if someone had an injury though, that's a very wise way to approach it. Right? Like what potentially would be good things that you would take if you had a broken bone and you wanted it to heal quicker? HGH, peptides, androgens are very restorative of like they'll reinforce bone mineral density. It's not just muscle tissue for anabolics, too.

Like there's certain stuff that's going to stay in his system for a long time he could never use but like on the bioidentical side like anything that is pro um like bone integrity um infrastructure enforcing like he is going to be like i would be highly incentivized if i was him and i knew i wasn't being tested yes i'd be i'd be pushing that vector hard yeah if you took time off so it's like if it was you and you were a UFC fighter and you broke your leg and you found out about this you you you saw it a loophole so you would take peptides you would take growth what are the things you were saying that you you wouldn't take because they would stay in your system for too long oh like any synthetic androgen like you would not be touching in general. Like anything that could be detected for, like, I don't know, DECA.

Like anything of that nature I'm sure is not even on his radar. It would be more like bioidentical compounds. How long does that stuff stay in your system? Bioidenticals? Like a DECA? Oh, DECA can be like a year you get detection. Oh, really? Yeah.

Wow. It's fucking nuts. So him taking testosterone. But wouldn't that fuck with his endogenous production of testosterone then when he gets off of it? Yeah, he could, but I'm saying the most logical thing would be the growth factor side of things. So that would be GH and then accompanying peptides like the BPCs, the TB500. There's other peptides that are not even tested for that I'm sure he was probably already using.

But, yeah, like I imagine his main priority is injury-proofing himself more so than getting like juicy as fuck. Right. Yeah. Yeah, well, also just recovering. Yeah. You know, when your bones get snapped and it's a weight-bearing bone, he says, I crushed a metatarsal bone in my foot three weeks before the Khabib fight

and still made the walk. All injuries are not the same. You will see it all on Netflix. Oh, so he's doing a Netflix documentary? When a serious injury with a high percentage of never recovering occurs, it is just simply not the same. Yeah. Well, there is a high percentage of never truly recovering.

Yeah. No, there's like a few like i have a little list here like there's something called uh pentasan polysulfate i'm sure he might be trying bpc 157 you've heard of and something like the thymus and beta like some of these are kind of like commonly known would be expected but i imagine it's very much from the acceleration of recovery like you said and then also just trying to make sure this shit never happens again and he's actually confident going into the ring and um yeah like for him it's kind of a unique loophole for sure

and i don't know like how if anyone else has vetted this strategy and like somehow they were encouraged not to or made it seem like it was not allowed but it seems kind of odd that he you know was able to take himself out so perfectly and then is able to just enter back in like this is not something that i think even other ufc fighters were aware of as like a possible right yeah and looks massive yeah i mean he looks well over 200 pounds right now. Yeah. IGF-1, too, I forgot to mention, would also be something that would make sense.

But, yeah, and there's other compounds, but I would think the growth factor side of things would make the most sense. When a guy breaks a leg like that, how long is it before that thing is 100%? Like, it seems like I would, as far as, like, injury recovery goes for something that significant, like, I wouldn't know personally off the top of my head, but it seemed like there were certain individuals that took, like, I forget what Anthony Smith's

injury was, but it was not as severe, and there was other individuals who had significant bone-related injuries that took way fucking longer to come back. Yeah. Anthony thought his leg was broken, but it turned out it wasn't. Okay. But it was some sort of a significant, I think it was a ligament injury or something like that,

which is why it was so unstable that he thought it was cracked. Is that what's going on? What was Anthony Smith's injury? Back from Paris, pain in the leg. What's he saying? He had a leg break. I don't know. Maybe.

If it gets corrected. Well, I cracked my shin skiing. It's called an insufficiency fracture. Okay. Is in the, you know, I had a menoscopy. I have some meniscus missing from the inside of my knee. And I crashed skiing. And I got a crack.

And I was like walking around. I was like, this fucking fucking hurts like in a weird way i better get an mri and then i got it checked out and the doctor's like the top of your shin where it meets the the cartilage is cracked yeah and it healed you know it took a couple months and it was gone but it's like that you know that was no big deal didn't have to get screws or a cast or anything. I just did normal stuff. I just didn't throw any kicks or anything. Reveals what caused leg break. He said, just fucking shit luck.

And so it is a leg break. Stepped on the foot, pulled back, and then dragged my body forward. But this is like right after the fight, correct? Yeah, that thing I was just reading was like some other complications he had after he got surgery or had some complications. What was that? Did he have like staph infection or something? He had a clot or something. Oh, Jesus.

I guess he didn't. He went to the doctor. They told him to go home. So what was actually wrong with the leg? Trying to find the date. They're saying leg break. This is November 3rd. I felt like he didn't break his leg.

I felt like he thought it was broken, but then Dana White said it wasn't. Yeah. Okay. Either or. It wasn't as significant as Conor's where you snap both the tibia and the fibula. Both of them, it was dangling there. I mean, he went into that fight with a fractured leg.

Yeah. Like, he had a stress fracture that was already there. Like, they were looking at it. Headed for surgery after suffering broken ankle. Dana White admits error. Oh, so Dana had said that it wasn't broken, but it in fact was broken. I get it.

Yeah, so he had to get his ankle repaired. Jeez. Which is bad, but not as bad. Getting the tibia and the fibula snap, and then you have to reestablish blood flow, and everything has to heal back up. And then also, you're fucking kicking knees and elbows and shit. I mean, how confident is he going to be throwing that leg?

Yeah. I guess he's one of the premier shit talkers, but it's wild how aggressive he is with it still, even though he's kind of in this, I don't know, losing streak position. Yeah. Yeah. It is weird. Like his last big win was Donald Cerrone, which is a significant win. But then, you know, I wonder, you know, it could be just inactivity too.

The inactivity is probably one of the bigger factors in his demise. Yeah. Maybe even more so than just the silk sheets. Yeah. You know, like he said that after the Dustin Poirier fight, when Dustin Poirier knocked him out, he's like, I just feel like inactivity is a real problem. I just need to get back in here and be active.

Because he, you know, there's a lot going on in a fight, and if you're not accustomed to fighting at a high level, the stress of that moment is so overwhelming. Yeah. Very, very difficult for guys to just take years off and jump back in and be at 100%. Yeah. Even the guys who are on a hot streak like Costa and just melting under pressure, some of them, it definitely seems like even at the highest level with the most confident of individuals,

they might just fucking crack under the pressure. He's a funny guy. He's leaning into this whole secret juice thing. Yeah. He carries around a jug that says secret juice on it. Do you think that he's on something or do you think he's just like, uh, like very extraordinary genetics?

Uh, that's the thing is like, I did a whole like deep dive video on what I think he could be doing. And I think like for any individual that doesn't pass the eye test, like he would definitely be one of those individuals, but like, I wouldn't boil it down to that. He could be a hyper outlier individual for sure. Um, and I wouldn't want to ever say like a definitive statement, but I think if there was ever a person, maybe not if there was ever a person, but, um, I think it's highly probable that he's done certain things for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Like even when he went into the Ultimate Fighter, what is the show called again? Like the Ultimate Fighter. Yeah, the Ultimate, yeah, Secret Chief. Yeah, he like went in as like a self-proclaimed bodybuilder from Brazil. And he's just like his physique very much represented what you would expect. And his performance is only, like obviously he was like a more of a newbie back then.

But, um, even outside of myself, like highly respected individuals like for us, the hobby also believes he's on gear or has done certain things. And, um, yeah, it's, uh, you know, you can never say for certain if they're passing tests, obviously, but a lot of finicky shit sometimes goes into when they're testing out of the country. Um, you know, politics, corruption, et cetera. Yes. I didn't know how – I wouldn't say there's a lack of comprehension in the – comprehensiveness in the USADA test, but they're not bulletproof. Yeah. It's not that they're not trying. It's like they only have so much – well, I guess, like, who's interpreting that?

Some people might say otherwise. But it is budget restricted, so you can only do so much testing on every fighter. And then sometimes their choice of who's being tested, though, is definitely a little bit iffy. Like, there was the light heavy guy. I think it was Jiriiri or what's his name um yeah he was tested like 51 times yeah and then if you looked at like a dillashaw he was tested like nine times or something which is just like why yeah right yeah is he tested less yeah like some of the most premier suspect guys were tested like single digit times and this other guy somehow has like half of USADA's fucking budget allocated to him like I get that he was new in the actual

sport like he was coming from I forgot where he came from exactly well he was not new in MMA no no new to the UFC right yeah so the idea that some people have put out is they needed to establish more of a comprehensive passport on him quicker so that he had more elaborate testing off the jump then. Look at that, though. That's so nuts. Yeah, it was a really. He's so much more tested than anyone else. Yeah.

It was like a wild disparity. Wild. Rose Namajunas got tested more than Paulo Costa. That's crazy. Neil Magny got tested more than paulo costa that is nuts and for for dillashaw only getting single digit tests it was like yeah it just very much brought into question like were they hoping he'd have more leeway in order to not have like like give him the opportunity to actually have a good fight when he's coming back sort of thing. Like, there's a lot of speculation, obviously.

You couldn't say one way or another what actually is going on. And they're very tight-lipped about, like, they don't reveal test results anymore like they used to. Back in the day, you could actually get, like, John Jones fucking urine analysis and interpret it yourself and, like, see what's going on. Whereas now, it's like if a guy pops or whatever, like, it's very's very you know you can't really get insight onto what their decision making process is like even when asked about connor they were very very vague in their answer it was very much just like this is what the rule set is for getting in and out of the pool and the testing window that you need to be

subject to in order to be qualified to fight again and that's it we're not going to speak on any individual fighter, what has happened with them or not happened with them, et cetera. I blame you. I do. When you covered the Jon Jones situation, like that was very illuminating to me. I was like, oh, okay.

And then you were talking about the test levels and the epitestosterone to testosterone ratio and how it was all off. And all of these points seem to indicate that someone who is supplementing with exogenous hormones. Yeah, it was like a pretty comprehensive like picture that is hard to dispute with all the evidence presented. Yeah. Like, you couldn't be like, oh, for fucking sure. But, like, it's pretty hard to refute, like, what has been put in front of our face with the positive test results and all the other background context.

Yeah. And it's also a guy who, you know, is a wild dude. Yeah. He's doing a lot of wild shit. He's doing coke. Yeah. It's not like his body's a temple. What do you think about his comeback?

Interesting. If anybody wanted to get bigger and get taken out of the pool, I would have thought John did it. I mean, that would have been the move. Get super saucy. I wonder if he saw the situation and was like, fuck. Yeah, probably.

He's trying to come back naturally. But he's fucking big as shit now. He's like 255, 260 now. The question is, that's a lot of time off. But if Francis Ngannou versus Jon Jones is the big fight, well, Francis has had to take a lot of time off as well because Francis had a torn MCL and ACL, had to get surgery, reconstructed his leg, rehabilitated it, out for over a year.

So that to me is very interesting. I like that fight because Francis has had a lot of time off. John's had a lot of time off. And, you know, it's commensurate, at least close. I mean, obviously Francis has been more active recently. But at least that time off makes sense to me. And it's a very compelling fight. And I think John, his background, his resume does warrant an immediate shot at the title.

He is absolutely one of the greatest fighters of all time. No ifs, ands, or buts. And him stepping up from light heavyweight, relinquishing the title, voluntarily saying, I i'm done with this i'm going to move up to heavyweight and be the heavyweight champ and then building himself legitimately into a heavyweight and then documenting it all showing all the deadlift showing all the squats showing put on size and put on some body fat that's compelling what do you foresee as if it happened what would be your prediction well the grappling of john jones is very difficult to deal with i mean for a guy like francis and ganu who uh was primarily a striker and was taken down on multiple occasions by stipe miocic

and really dominated in their first fight the The question is, has Francis gotten better at grappling? Well, he definitely has because he beat Cyril Ghosn with grappling. That was the fight that he fought with his blown-out leg. And he fought Cyril Ghosn, who is a fucking phenomenal striker. I don't know if you saw Cyril Ghosn versus Tai Tuivasa. Holy shit is Cyril Ghosn good. He's so technical, technical so smooth and his combinations are since and francis beat him with his grappling so francis is grappling even with a up

leg has gotten a lot better but has it got to john jones levels that's the big question because john is john took down daniel cormier who's an Olympic wrestler. I mean, John's a fucking monster when it comes to grappling. And he's also just as tall as anybody in the heavyweight division, and he has a phenomenal understanding of distance. He's the very best at utilizing reach. But when he goes up, he's now fighting guys that are his height and even bigger than him in Francis. So how does he deal with that? How does he deal with a guy like Cyril Ghosn? he's now fighting guys that are his height and his, you know, and even bigger than him in Francis. Yeah.

So how does he deal with that? How does he deal with a guy like Cyril Ghosn? You know, how does he deal with these? You know, it's interesting to find out, and I love the fact that he really didn't want to do light heavyweight anymore. He's like, I'm done. I want a new challenge. I want to be a two-division champion.

But it's a long time. It's taken a long time. How old is he now? Do you know? I would imagine John is 35, 36 maybe. What is like peak fighter age? 35? Around there.

How old is he? He's 35? Why? I think peak fighter age is probably 30 to 34. Okay. If I had to guess. And below, obviously. You know, some elite fighters are 26, 27.

But when it gets to championship level, there's one thing like prospects. It's very rare that someone is at championship level that young. That's why John was so amazing. John was the youngest ever UFC champion and was as elite as anybody alive when he was 22 years old. He was as good at everything as anybody was. He opened up the fight for the world title against Mauricio Shogun, who was a legend. He opens up that fight with a flying knee,

which is crazy. Who does that? But that's John. He's just a wild, confident, risk-taking, skillful fighter who has one of the highest fight IQs I've ever seen. His ability to know what to do and when to do it is just extraordinary.

The thing about Francis, though, is he has nuclear power. It's a totally different kind of power. You get caught with one shot, and you're fucked. He's a 265-pound natural 6'5 man. I mean, He's a 265-pound natural 6'5 man.

I mean, Francis is a monster. And he hits people where you just sit there and go, Jesus. Yeah. The Alistair Overeem one is the best example. Like, he hit Alistair Overeem with a left uppercut slash hook where Alistair's head snapped so far back he was looking at his ankles. Like, it was just crazy. That knockout was just like Jesus. Yeah.

That's what Francis has. And when he knocked out Stipe Miocic to win the title, like, ooh. And, you know, John has to be very, very, very aware of that. Francis has a giant striking advantage, giant. Yeah, it's wild when you see guys, like, grind through five rounds and they still get caught at the end with one shot. And that's all it takes. Yeah, Kamaru Usman and Leon Edwards. Yeah.

Or like the Pereira. Yeah. We were talking about that last year and I was asking what you thought, how it was going to go. No. Yeah. Can never fucking put your guard down or be too careful with that guy. Well, that's an interesting thing. I mean, how much have you looked into the science of weight cutting?

Yeah, there are certain drugs you can use that I believe aren't banned that you can do like pretty hyper-aggressive fat loss in short condensed time frames. Like what drugs? Have you ever heard of DNP? No. Dinitrophenol. It was used in explosives in world war one and

then they found out that after the workers were like creating the bombs they were overheating and dying and they figured out it was because it was being absorbed transdermally and increasing their metabolism so much that they were like internally overheating whoa yeah and they marketed it as a fat loss agent for however many years in like the, I don't know, like decades ago, like almost a fucking hundred years ago at this point. And people started dying because it's very easy to miscalculate your dose or use like the lethal dose is not that far from the effective dose. And people were overheating and dying and they took it off the market and it's become illegal. But as far as I know, I don't think they actually test for it in USADA.

Like, if you put in, like, their drug database, 2,4-dinitrophenol, I don't think they test for it. And there are certain other things, too. But, like, there are a lot of loopholes on, like, I don't even think they test for, like, stimulants outside of competition either, like amphetamines and whatnot. Really? Yeah. So, there are, like, a lot of things you could do to nuke your appetite, increase energy expenditure significantly,

drop water weight potentially more aggressively, and cut harder than would otherwise be naturally possible, potentially. Yeah. So I don't necessarily think that he's doing all these things, but when you see a guy lose like fucking 60 pounds or something, you can only imagine he's looking for any loophole that. What about stuff like semaglutide? That as well.

Yeah, that is. Is that legal in USADA? You could check easily. There's like, it's like UFC, DRO, and you type in the database, any drug name, it'll say in competition, out of competition, allowed or not. I believe, I imagine GLP-1 agonists are not restricted because it's like used to treat type 2 diabetes or obesity at the higher dosages and super effective. Yeah. So does that just curb your appetite? Is that what that stuff does?

Yeah. So it basically makes you feel satiated way easier, essentially. Like your compulsion to eat is like so dramatically hindered that you're way more likely to stick to a diet like even individuals like if you become a morbidly obese person sometimes there are genetic predispositions at play for sure but in addition a lot of these individuals they lack willpower to stick to a diet and like follow a well thought out like exercise regimen or whatever like to get to that point many of them do lack the willpower to stick to a diet and like follow a well thought out like exercise regimen or whatever like to get to that point many of them do lack the willpower necessary because they're just

you know succumb to cravings and whatnot and not every individual has the same like hunger appetite satiety feedback signals that you know the next guy might have who's super lean and that's why they can walk around lean because they just don't get as hungry and these individuals like even like the morbidly obese really fat motherfuckers they would end up losing like 30 pounds plus on average when they use this stuff when they were testing it for type 2 diabetes and they started ramping up the dose and found that there was like an obesity management obesity management can't even talk obesity management dose that was like hyper effective for these guys to lose, you know, 30, 40 pounds, which is like very, very effective for managing, you know, hemoglobin A1C, fasting insulin levels, fasting glucose levels, and becoming far more healthy individuals as a result. But it's as a consequence of the weight loss, but these

individuals would typically overeat otherwise, and they start using this drug. And all of a sudden, they don't feel, you know, compelled to eat nearly as many calories interesting so if you're like a fighter who's aggressively cutting like you still have the same cravings as anybody else who's following a a diet model of any sort like trying to get the single digit body fat to step on a you know way in before fight night and your water depleted whatever like you can're, you would just love to eat a piece of chocolate right now or like anything, like your cravings are through the goddamn roof because your body's feedback signals are screaming at you to eat nutrients. Yeah.

So trying to like fight back against that with pharmacology would absolutely be useful. Do you think that using semaglutide, though, would affect physical performance? Because of the diminished appetite, is there any other sort of feedback loop that would let you, like maybe you wouldn't take in the nutrients that are necessary to have a good workout or something? Potentially. Not prohibited. Semaglutide. In competition, not prohibited. Not prohibited out of competition.

This is something that is just being learned about. In the health space, health and wellness and actual scientific community, semaglutide has been known about for a long time because it was used to manage type 2 diabetes. But only more recently has it started to pick up steam in popularity for its effects on obesity because all these crazy headlines started coming out about people losing 30, 40 plus pounds who otherwise couldn't. And as far as how it would affect a fighter's ability to assimilate nutrients, stuff like that. Yeah. Like slows gastric emptying significantly can cause like pretty intense, uh, GI issues, uh, make you nauseous. Maybe you don't even want to eat the food that you need to eat if you're, you know, kind of depends on what situation you're imposing on yourself. But yeah, like it's not a side effect free drug by any means.

Like some people. That would be significant. That would be a real problem, I would think. Don't you think? Yeah. It depends on your individual response. Like, you know, there are a lot of individuals using it. Like even Elon Musk uses it now.

What? Yeah. He posted a tweet. It was like somebody was like, hey, Elon, how are you so lean now? Or like, how'd you lose the weight? And he was like, fasting and Wego-V. And Wego-V is the branded 2.4 milligram increment of semaglutide. So it's like the highest dose you could be using.

Wow. Yeah. So how does he look now? A lot thinner. Does he? Yeah. Show a picture of look now? A lot thinner. Does he? Yeah. Show a picture of Elon Musk looking jacked like that. Have you seen that thing that people made us?

Yeah, I think it's crazy. That's supposed to be, it's called Giga Chad. So if he was following the nine ancestral tenets. Yeah, if he was like just eating raw liver, sunning his balls. Said he used popular weight loss drug to get fit, ripped, and healthy. He does look thinner there. Yeah, there we go. That was the tweet.

Let's see. Oh, yeah. Looks quite a bit thinner. Well, you know what? There was a photo of him on a yacht where he looked like a wine barrel. Yeah. He got big. The guy works fucking 16 hours a day. it's unflattering angles though you're you know pushing your stomach

a little fasting and weggewie yeah so weggewie is like the like there are different increments of dosage from the company that makes it and the lower dosage, like the drug is semaglutide. And I think the lower one is called Ozempic and it's for diabetes management, but it's basically just like a pen that's like in one milligram increments. And that's the diabetes management dose. There's other smaller increments too, but 2.4 milligrams is like the max well tolerated dose where for obesity management, it's like significantly more effective. I would think that for a fighter,

if that really does have all those little gastrointestinal issues and – Yeah, the net ROI might be negative for some of them. Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, it depends. Yeah. What other thing – There's a limited supply for that drug right now. Of course. We've talked about it 15 times.

You can't get it. All these fat people are so mad. Yeah, well, lose weight. It's like the value of willpower is very underappreciated, but I get it. And especially when someone is used to consuming a lot of carbohydrates, it's very difficult to cut that down to a place where you're actually going to be in a deficit. Yeah. It's like some of the neuro chemical changes that happen when you're accustomed to like the Western diet with processed foods and stuff. You're kind of, some of these

individuals I think are imposing a situation on themselves where their brain is so sugar addicted or processed food addicted, where they then need pharmacology to stick to a reasonable calorie intake so they can eat their like shitty foods too. Where I think a lot of this, not always, but some of this appetite feedback regulating stuff could happen naturally if you just had like a high quality diet, high quality sleep. Like a lot of these things are massively impacted by sleep quality, duration, diet quality, exercise regimen, and it sort of self-regulates itself like a normal, healthy body would. And some of this stuff could be Band-Aids for certain individuals

who are getting shit sleep doing whatever. That makes sense. When I did the carnivore diet, I was pretty shocked at how easily satisfied I was. And if I had done the carnivore diet and someone put a plate of spaghetti in front of me while i was doing that i would be done eating fine with the carnivore diet but the spaghetti would be like i want that now yeah and i could eat that like i could probably eat a whole bowl of spaghetti after eating like being completely satisfied with steak whereas when i was on that diet very strictly which is just for a month, I could be

fine. I'm done eating. Isn't that weird how you have like a second stomach for shit? For shit. Yeah. French fries. I eat my dinner and I'm like, I don't want more of that. But ice cream. Yes. Fuck yeah. Give me all of that. Isn't that wild? All of a sudden I can pile down like 2,000 more calories. Like crazy.

Yeah. And even like nuts. Like sometimes I'll eat and i'll be totally done with my healthy meal but i'll be like i want some almonds let me grab some almonds but like a handful of almonds like 500 calories yeah like a handful that's it right no it's absurd the almonds are like very rich in calories aren't they yeah yeah it's so easy to and that's one thing when people they think they're eating clean and they don't realize these little things that you do throughout the day. They stack up. If you just put them all in a bowl and then you measure the calories in that bowl, you're like, oh, that's 1,500 calories.

Yeah, it was wild as there was this university in Canada that removed all of the nutritional information apparently from the foods that the students are getting on their meal plans because it was like too triggering to show the calories and then it it presents this fucked up scenario where you like can't even self-regulate like even the individuals who want to stay at a healthy weight you can't even figure out what the fuck you're eating and i don't know like just this i'm on on board with intuitive eating. If you've gotten to the point where you've educated yourself enough about what your body actually needs, like when to stop eating and you've like established healthy practices that have become like cemented as your foundational infrastructure. But to then like have a guy who doesn't even know how to diet and be like, oh, don't worry about it. Just eat until you're satisfied. Like you're going to, that's how you get fat.

Yeah. Like if I ate until I was felt good i would be a fat fuck there was a viral video that went around that was a woman who was god i don't think she was a professor somewhere who was talking about avoiding certain foods is just fat phobic and it's not based in science and you shouldn't deny yourself donuts and that it's all that you know to call some food junk food is is incorrect and it's like how are you how are you ever speaking publicly on this this is also she was obese as fuck yeah you know i'm talking about jamie remember that video where people, nutritionists were outraged. Like, it's the same kind of outrage that you should have at them thinking that it's triggering to have actual data on the food you're eating.

Like, you should know what you're eating. You should know what the calorie and what the nutrient content is of the food. It doesn't mean anybody should tell you what you should and shouldn't do. But you should know. Yeah, it's just a factual thing that exists. Like, why is it? I feel like it should be my problem if I'm triggered by it, not, you know? It is your problem if you're triggered by it.

And what they're doing, they're raising the anti-David Gogginses. They're raising the most non-resilient people possibly known to man, where every single microaggression every single thing that could trigger you all those are removed you are just raw and vulnerable and will protect you in this university system and then you spit you out into the world well you will then infect corporations with this ideology and that's what we're experiencing. Yeah. It's wild how the shift to like comfort mentality has very much become commonplace. And it's just like I feel like this is partially why men's testosterone levels are dropping too. Like just like the lifestyle and encouragement to be like a sedentary piece of shit who's offended and insulted by literally everything. Like none of it is conducive to masculinity.

I don't want to give them promotion, but that's where I came from. Two fat professors fighting fat phobia with education, community building, and a lot of sass. Jeez. Derek, they have sass. That's not them, though. It was a woman in a video. I couldn't find a video.

Okay, it doesn't matter. But fuck off, fat professors. Fuck off. You guys fat professors. Yeah. Fuck off. You guys are unhealthy. Yeah. And it's not in any way good. Yeah, it sucks if someone's fat and they feel bad if someone calls them fat. You're right. And someone shouldn't do that. But they're fat.

Yeah. And you're fat. Yeah, and the promotion of stuff that's not even food too. Yeah. Like it's... Donuts. Yeah. Like I'm not saying you shouldn, too. Like, it's... Donuts. Yeah. Like, I'm not saying you shouldn't indulge, but it's like... Yeah. You should earn it. Yeah.

Earn indulgence. If I have a piece of cake, I fucking earn that shit. Yeah. And if I don't earn that shit, I feel gross after I eat that piece of cake. But I try to balance it out, and a lot of people are not... They don't have the willpower to balance it out. They don't. They're not going to.

They're not going to self-correct. They're not going to look at their gut in the mirror and go, Jesus, what am I doing with this? They're never going to make that, okay, tomorrow we stop this and we start that and now we get going in a positive direction. That's one of the good things about Goggins, though, too, is

he showed that even him, who's the most incredibly disciplined and hard individual out there, he even at one point was not in the best shape 300 pounds and turned it around yeah look at him now so it's like if he can do it fucking anyone can for sure yeah he's the best with that because he's not scared of being vulnerable so he's not scared of communicating that it's just this is like the problem with this fitness and one of the things i really admire about you is your openness.

And you're also you are so educated on so many different subjects when it comes to supplementation and training modalities and all these different things. And you just talk about stuff from a place of actual knowledge. There's so much bullshit in that world. It's like so many people are just full of crap yeah no it's uh wild how much misinformation is in this industry and like misleading i don't know just like information designed to make you buy into whatever it is that they're trying to promote that is like this is the only way there's no other alternative and um i think more transparency in the industry overall is just you know always a net a net benefit for the individuals watching, trying to educate themselves.

Very, very hard to come by. It's such an overwhelming amount of information now, too, across social media. It's like, who do you even trust or listen to half the time? Well, I know they can trust and listen to you. It's one of the things I appreciate about you. And one of the things that happens when a guy like the liver king gets so massive is that he develops this incredible following that really is unjustified given the fact that he's lied about stuff. But then that will come towards you now. And a lot of that will come towards you because people realize, like, who's this guy who's exposed this? And what is this?

Oh, this guy's interesting. Oh, look this is let's how look how much information this guy's giving out like this is great and then they'll go to your other videos and they'll say oh there's like a real good benefit to this and you talk about stuff without any worry about the moral quandary involved you know you're just like this is what's effective and this is what works and this is a and you know that's how it should be. Like it should be up to the person who's taking it to make your own decisions in terms of what you should and shouldn't do with your body. But you also show, look at this guy's fucking back and the acne. Look at this guy's tits from gyno.

Yeah. No, I'm sure that's why as much as I do too, I appreciate the stuff you do. Like it's very, very transparent into what you do, what's effective, why it what you feel is a waste of time why how you've learned things how you've educated yourself over the years you know you always have people on regardless of how big or small their social media following is too like you're just highly committed to high quality information and like furthering your education and the education of those who are watching which is like super admirable like I don't know any other podcaster who actually just has on people they want to fucking talk to kind of thing.

Yeah, that's all my requirement. So there's so many famous people that have tried to get on. I'm like, eh, I don't see where that's going to go. I only want to talk to people that I mention. And it's just up to me. I will entertain it sometimes. A famous person will try to come on. I'll go, all right, let me go watch an interview with them.

Let me see there's something there. Maybe like read something that they said or wrote. But, you know, for the most part, I'm just interested in what I'm interested in. And I don't try to wonder why. I just go, oh, this guy's cool or this guy's – she's fascinating. Like I'm having a beekeeper on soon. Because I'm like, what's it like being a beekeeper? I'm interested.

I had that guy from White Oak Pastures, Will Harris. Oh, right on. The regenerative farm. I just want to talk to him. What's it like farming? Like, how long did you farm for? Like, when did you turn your farm into this regenerative farm? How difficult was that struggle?

I mean, is there a commercial value in that to speak to those people? I don't fucking care I just I want to know I'm interested and I feel like You know, there's a value. I'm interested in what people are interested in too Yeah, like if there's a guy who's all he likes to do is paint with watercolors. I'm like, why? What is it about watercolors? Tell me. I'm interested. You're fucking Mike the Watercolor Guy. Why? What is it? I want to learn about you because I think

in doing so, you learn about yourself. You learn about the human mind. Is there any guests that are like your top, I don't know, individuals you'd love to have on? Hunter Biden. Hunter,. Yeah. Hunter, come on.

I'm your only way out of this. That would be a good one. No. No, I don't care. Yeah. I mean, look, my friends are my favorite people to talk to. Yeah. You know, like having comedians on or fighters on, those are my favorite people to talk to for the most part.

But I enjoy it. You you know it's just real very fortunate but also uh an unexpected education yeah that's been the most amazing part about is to be able to talk to so many intelligent people that have so much information on so many different subjects and be able to quiz them like i had neil degrasse tyson on the other day yeah and i'm asking him about the web telescope and i'm like, okay, tell me, how does it work? What are they doing? So it's like, you get this free seminar with this fucking genius

who gets to sit down and explain to you how they can shoot a telescope a million miles into space and take photos of the cosmos. Yeah. Wild. What do you think

of the neural link thing coming out soon? Right. Is Elon going to chip himself or something? He's going to turn into a god. He said he he's gonna put a chip in himself when it comes out yeah next year which is wild he'll probably do it I guarantee he'll do it if they'll try it on some monkeys first do you worry about that shit yes the progression of because I know very much so like I know you'll you'll sit

here and ask him about that stuff and like I don't know how much you worry about where it's going in terms of. Yeah, I worry a lot. I think it's inevitable, though. I think there used to be single-celled organisms, and now there's multi-celled organisms that have cell phones. I think that's just going to keep going. And I think we're going to be inexorably connected to technology. I think there's going to come a time where we're not going to breed

sexually anymore. And I think that's probably where all this low T shit is going. Oh, for sure. Like there's like, even if you just see an attractive woman, your test goes up. Yeah. Like there's definitely like a biological component to it that is like above and beyond the whole, like the phthalates and like the endocrine disruptors and stuff. Like there is like direct biological consequences to the way people are living yes and there's also direct biological

consequences to overcoming difficulties and success yeah yeah there's a lot of like weird interactions with hormones and real world events no i forget i forget the study but it was like comparing somebody who like won versus lost a competition or something and it was like comparing somebody who like won versus lost a competition or something. And it was like the winner would get a boost in tea. Loser would lose tea. Yes. Oh, definitely. That's true. When I lost fights, I never wanted to have sex.

Yeah. When I would lose fights, I'd just feel like a fucking loser and just want to go home and just go to sleep. Yeah. You just feel so down. Yeah. You know, and, uh, I think that's probably, there's probably like some sort of like human biological reward system that's built into that to try to encourage conquerors. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, uh, like for you, like, obviously I think you're in your early fifties now. Yeah. 55. So would you, if it was possible, if it even came out and like i don't know david sinclair came up

with some like crazy longevity thing you could just live forever would you want to like maintain that in perpetuity and what do you think about just like the way like i don't really know how to perceive if this is like um a good thing the way things are going just trying to turn people into robots and like this whole i don don't know, shift towards like maintaining the species in perpetuity. There's one way to look at it is would you want to live forever? Yeah. But the other way to look at it is do you want to deteriorate? Yeah.

Like I don't even know how to frame the question, but it's like a very odd scenario where people are striving for this, like, I don't know. Immortality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Ray like i don't know immortality yeah yeah yeah i mean ray kurzweil genuinely wants immortality he wants you to download consciousness into some sort of supercomputer and then you will exist in this new realm yeah because i'm trying to imagine like what the future is of people just like have this fucking chip in their head and they're just sitting there like brain dead on a couch like just like simulating uh sex all day essentially and just like hammering the dopamine button and that's

pretty much it like is that life in 100 years like i don't even it's a real problem i mean the matrix used to be some fun movie that you go to watch and you're like wow what a crazy dystopian future but now in 2022 decades later you go this is oddly like around the corner yeah yeah no it's like eerie like yeah align some of like the old movies is sort of becoming well the metaverse is kind of failing right like Zuckerberg pumped so much money into the metaverse and now people are calling him a fool and you know and, how much money did Meta lose on the Metaverse, banking on the Metaverse? It was like billions.

Billions. They laid off 11,000 people. That's fucking crazy. Which is... I didn't even understand, like, what it was. Was it just like you have a virtual character and you go hang out with people, like, as in a video game that already exists, essentially?

Or what was the utility of it above and beyond basic things that i don't know in the gaming world already exist well there's things that are there's things that are educational about them that are really interesting like one of the things he came in and he gave me uh one of the newer units that are out now to try on and show you the the capabilities and one of the things you could do is virtual tourism. So you could go to the Louvre in Paris and you're walking around with people that are in the Louvre. So like they had someone wear it, right?

And then the cameras are all around. They probably have like multiple people that did it. And then there's all these actual human beings that are walking around the louvre and you walk in between them and can go like walk right up to this painting and check it out and it looks pretty good i mean it doesn't obviously look 100 real but they can do that with things like mount everest they can do that with things like you know Loa. You could go to, you know, Tahiti. You could experience things that are unavailable to you. Like, say, if you're living in some inner city and you're a young kid, you can get a wealth of, like, physical experiences through virtual reality.

This is how they marketed it. This would even be over a year ago now. This is what we're supposed to be getting to, although we're not quite there even yet. But it's showing what you were just describing, like taking someone into the middle of ancient Rome. Yeah. And letting them see what it was like. That would be fucking wild. I mean, if they could accurately represent what the lifestyle of those people was like back then. I would really want ancient Egypt.

That's the big one to me, but they just don't know enough. I'm just trying to imagine the utility above and beyond, like a cost-effective way to do tourism or experience things that would otherwise be unaffordable. What is the end goal of it? I think it has to be entertainment-based. Otherwise, people are just going to abandon it. It'd have to be fun.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of games that abandon it. It'd have to be fun. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of games that are fun. He and I did fencing. We fenced together, which is pretty cool. Yeah. And then there's a boxing game, which is really cool, where you box against this virtual opponent. And you get a good workout, man.

And when they punch you, you see a flash of light, like you got hit. Does it seem realistic to you? No. Not realistic, realistic not necessarily realistic but enough so that it makes it exciting yeah so like when you put the headphones on and then you're standing in front of this guy he throws punches if you move your head the punches miss you and if you hit him you see him his head snaps back and when he hits you you see a flash of light and And you get a good workout. You really do. Isn't that kind of like the Nintendo Wii? Already did that, though? Kind of, except it's virtual. So you have a headphone on it. And you're looking around

the ring. You see the floor. You see the sky. People in the audience are cheering. And then there's this dude who's walking towards you. And, you know, they don't look totally real, but it's that uncanny valley thing. Eventually they'll look real. Eventually you'll look over and it's like Andre Ward waiting to beat you up. And you're like, oh my God, this is so crazy. You know, I think as those things get better and better,

they're going to be more and more compelling. But virtual reality as a concept has been around for a long time. People thought it was going to take off, but the technology just wasn't quite ready yet where it could look realistic and be really, just really immersive. And now it is. Now it's better, but not quite. It's not quite yet. Have you seen Ready Player One?

Yes. Love that movie. Makes me wonder if it's just going to be like essentially replicating what you could otherwise, if you were trying to achieve something in real life and then trying to replicate a virtual version of it, and then you're just going to be competing against other people virtually for virtual belongings and virtual success and virtual this. But everyone in reality is just sitting in their you know apartment fucking eyes glazed over head back in a couch yeah i don't know i think that's some version of that is probably inevitable at this point what is going to be weirder is if we integrate with technology to the point where you're not wearing something but it's a part of your body

like a neuraluralink. And the thing that's going to be crazy about that is then you're no longer interfacing with some virtual reality headset and playing a game with some other people that are on the cyber world. Now your mind is connected to the cyber world permanently. And I don't think humans have the willpower to not just smash the dopamine button infinitely if they were presented with it. Like any of these like rat studies that look at what happens when they present them with

an opportunity to just like press a button and then it hits them with dopamine and they have like an orgasm or something. Yep. Like, do you think humans are going to sit there and fucking hammer it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a real problem. And when they have virtual sex, when, when they really do develop some sort of a, either

a haptic feedback suit or some sort of a neural implant that can hijack all of your sensitivity cells and all the skin cells and all the all the things that are designed to detect feel and touch and warmth they can hijack those and you could feel a woman wrap her legs around you you're like holy shit like that's no one's going to avoid that you're going to be on it all day long why would you you want to be alone what do you want to do you want to be alone playing checkers no you're gonna you're gonna put that thing on you're gonna fuck this 10 and you're gonna be in a waterbed with great music playing it's gonna feel amazing and if it's gonna be so good that you cannot detect whether or not it's a simulation like this is one of the weirder things that elon believes he believes there's a high likelihood

that we are currently in a simulation oh yeah and yeah. And when I said to him, I said, well, with probability theory, and you think about all the planets that there are and all the potential for advanced civilizations, the potential for advanced life, one day they will create a technology that's unrecognizable from reality. You will develop some sort of a virtual environment that you cannot, you can't discern whether or not this is physically real or whether or not this is just so super advanced technology that recreates life. And then that's probably the future. Yeah.

And do you foresee that as a overly negative thing? I think it's just is what it is. You know, like if you talk to people about like there's a great book that I read that Neil Brennan told me about. What's it called? Amusing Ourselves to Death. Is that what that it's called? Yeah. Which is about television in the 80s. It was like during the Reagan administration. They were talking about how stupid people are getting because of television. That's the book. Really good book. And it's really fascinating to look back, you know, all these decades later, 1984,

and all these decades later to read what they thought about what was happening to people because of television. And that's just fractional compared to the dramatic what was happening to people because of television. And that's just fractional compared to the dramatic what's happening now. Yeah, I think it's just happening. I think it just is. And I don't think we're getting away. Yeah. Sketchy, dude.

It's sketchy. I don't necessarily think it's good, but whatever it is, it is. Yeah, I don't even know what to make of it because it's like I I don't know for the people who very much value achievements in real life and you know chasing success or doing things that are rewarding it kind of like shits on that I think we're the last of the Mohicans bro I think David Goggins never finished out December 6th. I think he's the last of the Mohicans. I think in the future people are just going to be living in virtual. Yeah, I don't know.

Unfortunately. But we're here now, my friend. Yeah. And I want to thank you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for the great content. Your podcast is – your show, rather, on YouTube is really, really good. I appreciate it.

More plates, more dates. It's available on YouTube. I mean, what's your subscribers up to now? 1.5 something million. Beautiful. Yeah. Nice. But really, really great content.

So thanks. No, thank you, man. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. We'll do it again. Right on. All right.

Thank you, everybody.