The Joe Rogan Experience - #1916 - Jon Bernthal

Episode Date: December 28, 2022

Jon Bernthal is an actor known for such roles as Sheriff's Deputy Shane Walsh in "The Walking Dead," vigilante Frank Castle in "The Punisher," and more recently, corrupt cop Wayne Jenkins in HBO's miniseries, "We Own This City." Bernthal is also the host of the weekly interview podcast series "REAL ONES with Jon Bernthal." https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrOR14O-kBHEyrLQRdHJgDQ

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! You know, I grew up in D.C. and I think about the people, you know, who are my teachers and, you know, my parents, my friends' parents. And, you know, they're sort of at the forefront of, you know, troops coming home and getting spit on. And you got people, you know, you're coming out of, you know, Jim Crow and people, you know, people going down south and getting lynched, you know, in Meridian, Mississippi. And, you know, I just and then these assassinations. I just can't imagine what that must like a string of assassinations and just given the conversation

you know if you're talking about the most fucked up time when you think everything is going to complete shit and it's just harry carry like what would i mean imagine if right now you know in the string of next week like kanye was assassinated trump was assassinated you know like i mean i guess you had the thing at Pelosi's house. I mean, I guess that's kind of weird, but it's also kind of like— That's just weird. It's just weird, right? Yeah.

But imagine that. Imagine what we'd all be saying. I think in the last couple of years, we really saw how close, how fragile this whole thing is and how close this thing can go to just breaking down and you're kind of on your own but i just you know to have like both yeah you got a good point yeah like like what did that feel like john f kennedy robert f kennedy martin luther king jr malcolm x all these murders all these assassinations very close to each other talking about what like 68 and then and then also you have i mean not to the same extent i don't know what how it would register now, but you had Altamont, you had, you know, and then

again, just, you know, scores of, you know, you had troops coming home, you know, like think about how we regard our military now and the reverence and respect that we treat our military. And think about, you know, these troops coming home getting spit on, you know, people throwing, you know, red paint at them, you know, in the airports. Like, think about that. Yeah. You know, what that says about us. Imagine if they had social media back then.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's a very good point. And then, you know, all the other people that died during that time, right? Like all the rock stars, like Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, everyone's dying. Yeah. It's just like, and then the 70s come along and, you know, you have fucking Watergate and Nixon's gone and like all the chaos in the country.

Totally. And everybody's just manically horrified. You know, you have the previous generation just absolutely fixated on this new war on drugs and what that means. And then you have these great, I mean, think about, I mean, who would be the equivalent of Hendrix Morrison and Janis Joplin now if they all died just like that. I mean, look, we've got people getting shot in the street. You know, we've got, you know, what was his name from Migos? He just died. Offset just died. No, no, no, not Offset. The other guy. Offset's still alive.

He's the one who's married to Cardi B. Right. The other guy got accidentally shot by one of his friends. They were in the middle of some gunfight, by one of his friends. Yeah. They were in the middle of some gunfight and one of his guys accidentally shot him. Yeah. We're so aware of the violence now and gun violence in South Central and gun violence in South Side of Chicago and gun violence in Baltimore. And so I think we're probably more acutely aware of the, like, just because of the news cycle, just because of social media.

But I think you're right in terms of the turmoil. And also you go from like the tone of the 50s to the 60s. You have like a completely different style of culture is emerging. The psychedelic style of culture and the music is different you got woodstock and it seems like there's this gigantic you know hunter s thompson wrote about it like what happened after all that happened was like you could just see this wave of change and then it pulled back yeah yeah got got a little bit too much for everybody. Yeah, I guess. I mean, is it? But it's all like these monumental shifts, and then everything sort of kind of tries to balance itself out, and then you have these new dilemmas and new problems.

I would imagine it is. You know, I have a friend named Tony Maggio, who's a sort of legendary drug cop in Baltimore from the east side. And he's from the community. He's got the complete and sort of utter respect of everyone in that department, not just on the east side, but citywide in Baltimore. And also he's got the respect of people on the street. And he sort of talks about now and I, you know, just talking about these soldiers coming home in the Vietnam era and what that was like. I really equate that to kind of everything that law enforcement's going through right now. You know, we have these, for the first time, you know, with Vietnam, you had these images. Look, I wasn't lying, but from what I hear, you know, you had these images coming into people's living rooms of these, you know, horrible situations, people talking about the My Lai Massacre,

people talking about these things, you know, in Vietnam. about the the my la massacre people talking about these things um you know in vietnam and and and to the same extent now you know we were just sort of there's so many examples of you know crazy and rampant sort of police brutality you have these these instances that were then magnified to the point where people who have no experience you know you know in this world would think that this is what all police are doing and all of a sudden you have this unbelievably just strident anti-police movement in this country. And, you know, and the result of it in a lot of places is a total increase in crime. And, you know, I, you know, talking to Tony about it, you know, he just he really believes that it's just a pendulum. You know, it's just a pendulum. You know, you go one way it, you know, he just he really believes that it's just a pendulum. You know, it's just a pendulum.

You know, you go one way, then you go the other. And he thinks it's going to really swing back. Well, I hope he's right. It seems like that's always the case. As long as there's not some sort of a catastrophic thing that happens like a world war or something that literally like flattens society and civilization. I mean, generally people try to move things in a better direction. It's just setbacks and all these things that happen along the way. I think culturally we're all trying to move towards a better direction.

I mean, that's why there is so much outrage. And, you know, when you have this anti-police sentiment, it is because of all these horrible, egregious examples of police brutality. No question. You know, the right way to do it is not defund the police. The right way to do it is not like this attitude towards all law enforcement, which is crazy. Because some of those same people, they're going to find themselves in a situation where they need law enforcement. Absolutely. And then what do they do?

They look like hypocrites. And, you know, it's a lack of understanding of the scope of the overall problem. And I think a lot of the times the conversation is just really being led by the wrong people. You know, we're looking at pundits and celebrities and so-called experts in these situations. We're not talking to the people that are actually on the ground, doing the job, people from the communities. And I think there's a lot to be learned from those folks. Yeah. Oh, no doubt. It's just, it seems like there's also this problem of there's so much information to sort through. You know, when you're dealing with this 24-hour news cycle and social media, you're dealing with most of the things that people concentrate on are

negative. And so you're dealing with negative consequences and negative actions from billions of people. And we're all trying to filter it out and apply it to our everyday lives. While everyone's freaking out about climate change. While everyone's freaking out about the war in Ukraine. While everyone's freaking about the drug problem and the border problem, Ukraine while everyone's freaking about the drug problem and the border problem, the cartels and fentanyl and shit. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And everything's designed to just sort of be delivered in the most un-nuanced, the most just sort of bright lights. Hey, pay attention to me. And, you know, that's scary. The truth gets really lost. And these issues are, That's scary. The truth gets really lost. And these issues are, you know, they're enormously complicated and they're not easy.

And trying to say that they are or trying to just sort of deliver an agenda or say I'm on this team or this team, I'm on this side or the other side. It's I mean, for me, I find that enormously un-American and I find it I think it's a huge mistake. And it's it's not way I want to live my life, or it's not the way I want my kids to live theirs. Agreed. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. We have a horrible tendency towards tribalism, and in this country, there's definitely this trend. And I think that's also exacerbated by social media and the algorithms where people are just – they're holing up on teams and attacking people on the other side. And all of it is kind of fucked. Yeah, and isolating even more and more. And I think that – I really think that the lines in which we're dividing ourselves – so many people have talked about the polarization. It's like one of these things. many people have talked about the polarization. It's like one of these things, it's like everybody talks about it, but we still kind of, you know, still march to the beat of that drummer. And I

think that the lines that divide us, they're so porous, they're so insignificant. They really, there's no value based on those lines ever, in my opinion. I think, you know, we miss out on so much by holding people back or saying you are on this side or you're on that side. And I look at it, you know, in terms of the way we, our prejudices and these things that we ascribe to, you know, I look at it, you know, in that movement that we were talking about, you know, to, to sort of jump to this conclusion, if you've never been in a situation where you've really needed the police to say that all cops are bastards or abolish the police, or to say that, you know, folks in these communities, you know, that where the violence is going down, you know, in sort of the most violent cities in America, to think that those

folks that are from those communities don't want more policing there is just a huge mistake. And I really feel like, you know, when I talk to my friends in Shreveport, Louisiana or in Baltimore, that is not the case. And, you know, I look at it a lot of times. You know, if you had a football team and, you know, you felt that, you know what, I just you know, I just don't want any I just don't want any homosexuals on my football team. You know, if you just like if that's how you felt, there could be somebody on that. You could have somebody on your team who's six foot five, you know, runs a four, four, 40 and just can demolish people. But because your own stupid prejudice, because of your own just ridiculousness that you ascribe to, you're missing out and your team's got to fail. And it's just such a, it's impossible to thrive.

It's impossible. And I just find it so unbelievably un-American. It's definitely un-American. You have such an interesting nuanced perspective, which, you know, I don't want to say is unusual for actors because i think actors are just human beings and they vary widely but to be a guy like yourself who decides hey i want to put these opinions out there and i want to talk about things in this sort of nuanced and you know objective way like what made you decide to do that? Because that's very unusual for actors. And it's also unusual for actors to do it well. Like you, you don't come across as someone who's trying to sort of soften your words or say things in a way that's virtuous so that

people like you more. You seem very genuine in what you do. And to do that as like in a podcast form, the way you're doing it, it's almost like, did you get any people saying like, hey, maybe you shouldn't do this? A hundred percent. Yeah. This could be a liability, John. What are you doing, dude? You're throwing it all away. Why do you have all these opinions? Shut the fuck up and be the punisher. Yeah, I know. I know. And honestly, man, I have huge trepidation. I have huge hesitation.

And I don't necessarily think it's for the reasons that you just pointed out. I think, you know, for me, you know, not to be grandiose about it, but look, I love acting. I love it. And I think in a lot of ways it genuinely saved my life. And I think that I imagine I'm a huge fan of yours. And I listen to your show religiously. And I imagine that's similar potentially to how you feel about comedy. I feel about acting. I feel like it's a lifelong pursuit. I feel like it's something that failure and humiliation is always on my shoulder. He's always there talking to me and whispering to me. And it's always a fight that I like fighting. You can, you're never going to have it licked. You always got to get better. There's always further you can take it. There's always a grind

to it. You can always, that's how I look at it. I love it and I'm beholden to it. So anything that kind of gets in the way of that or, um, is, uh, I've been kind of conditioned to think is, is, is the enemy. And to be honest with you, one thing that I'm quite certain, uh, is the enemy of that is, is putting more of myself out there. I'm really not interested in, in, in being, you know, more well-known or, uh, uh, uh, so to be honest with you, um, there's a lot of trepidation about it in that way. I think the more you hear from me, the more I share my views, uh, just the more time in the box you get of John being John, the less you're going to believe me as a tennis coach or as a mathematician or the punisher or whatever it is. And so that is, but I will say, you know,

the intentionality behind the show is something I genuinely believe in. I think this all kind of came forward, you know, in COVID, in sort of the wake of not only George Floyd, but in just all these examples of this police brutality and this rampant police brutality and the fervor that kind of came after it. where, like so many, I was so disgusted and heartbroken and angry watching that video. And Eric Garner and I mean, all of them, but George Floyd. And I really, really wanted to get out there and be part of that protest and be part of that uprising. But at the same time, I turned on the TV and I saw people throwing bottles at police officers. I saw people throwing bricks at police officers. And to me, every single one of those police officers is a brother, a sister, a son, a daughter, someone's best friend. And I was disgusted by that. And I really, you know, I'm very grateful for kind of how I grew up and where I grew up. I grew up in Washington. I have,

you know, I have black folks in my family. I grew up extraordinarily with familial and best friends and ties very much into the black community. And I'm very much, I think, aware of the struggles that black folk have been in through the city and especially their struggles with police. I myself have been beaten by the police. But I've also had my life saved by with police. I myself have been beaten by the police, but I've also had my life saved by the police. And I also believe that so many of the folks that were sort of leading the charge in this anti-police movement, and also so many folks that were leading the charge in this anti-Black Lives Matter movement, there are folks who really had no experience, you know, really in it. It was just people kind of like arguing from the polls, flag waving from the polls.

And I was seeing something kind of in America generally where strength and patriotism was being confused with being rigid or being steadfast in your views and completely unbending and an unwillingness to sit down with somebody that thinks differently than you and to be confident in yourself enough to say, hey, you're an American, I'm an American, and I might learn something from you. I don't have all the answers. I'm an American. And like, I might learn something from you. I don't have all the answers. And I think at that time, the genesis of, you know, I mean, you know, while the podcast started is I looked at, okay, well, you know, on one side, you've got, you know, in this anti-police movement, who is the most, you know, who's the archetype that everyone is sort of most afraid of in that? And to me, it's the plainclothes unit, aggressive, take the fight to the criminal police officer.

And then on the other side, who's the archetype? Who are we all afraid of? Okay, well, maybe it's the African-American gang member. And to me, I looked at my life, and one of the things I'm most grateful for is I have really, really, really dear, genuine, close friends who fit both of those bills. And it's my assumption because they are actually in it, pitted against each other at times, but they are on the same streets dealing with each other. There's so many times that they have opportunities to see good in each other, to find things that they respect about each other is there's so many times that they have opportunities to see good in each other, to find things that they respect about each other. I find when I, you know, spend times when I go out and ride along and I spend time with plainclothes police units, they'll look at their own groups and they'll say who's really about it and who's not. They find flaws within their own community.

With a lot of the guys who have been really successful in the criminal world, it's the same. And they're able to reach across this sort of so-called aisle and they're able to say, hey, there's something about that guy I really respect. I really dig what he did. I really dig what that person did. And I found that they kind of appreciate the same things. They laugh at the same things. They're a lot closer than they are further apart. And I just thought that these were really the people that, that, that I want to listen to. I want to, I want to, I want to listen to the people who are actually in it and, and, and who, who, who, who walk the talk, walk the walk, don't just talk about it. And, um, that's really where, um, you know, the idea for the show started and sorry it's such a long-winded answer but i i i i would also just say about it man the trepidation i have in doing the show uh is quelled a bit because i just

really really believe in the folks that come on it this show is not about me you know i'm not i i don't think i i don't think i'm particularly good at it I don't think I'm particularly good at it. I don't think I'm particularly that interesting of a guy to be leading these conversations. both because of how I grew up and because of what I do for a living that people talk to me and, and, and, um, and I've become really, really close with them. And, you know, asking somebody to come on and talk about these things is it's, it's not easy, you know, it comes at a cost. Um, but I'm really grateful for it. And, and, and, uh, I, I giving these folks a platform and these are precisely the people that I want my kids listening to. And the two sort of things in my life that are most important, it's, yeah, it's my work and it's my family. So, you know, at times those are opposed to each other, but ultimately I really believe in it. How long did this stew in your mind before you ultimately decided to do something?

It stewed in my mind for a while. And, you know, we started doing them. And, you know, it sort of fits and starts. So what was the first one? So the first one that we did was exactly what I'm talking about. We did it with my friend Jerry Belasteros, who's, you know, he's a crash unit cop. So how does this conversation start? And like, how do you decide to start doing this? Like, how do you, you know, say you know what i'm going to sit down with people like were you just like i don't feel like their side's being represented i don't i feel like i have something to add to this or i feel like i have a unique position not me kind of bring people together yeah not me i them yeah i i guess there's that and and um you know i i i had uh i have who, you know, especially if you if you look at South Central, specifically, you know, Newton division in South Central.

It's historically one of the most violent, you know, they call it a shoot Newton, one of the most violent precincts in the entire city. in one of the most violent precincts in the entire city. I was enormously close with some of the guys in that precinct, and Jerry Belasteros is sort of this legendary cop there. He's lost people on the street, and he's gone all the way. And he's a guy that's respected. I believe in his reasons. Was he the first guy you sat down with? So he's the first guy I sat down with.

But I sat down with him and I sat down with a guy named Dante Johnson. People call him Bojangles on the street. He grew up in the Pueblo Bishop housing projects. The Pueblo Bishop housing projects and Newton Division are right next to each other. They've been sort of set against each other forever. You know, people call him Bojangles, like I said. He's a community activist. He's somebody who's given so much back to the community of the Pueblos.

But he was also part of the Pueblo. It still is part of the Pueblo Bishop Bloods. And these guys knew each other. They knew of each other. They've come into contact with each other in the street. And at first, getting them together was difficult. It was hard. That's a big first step.

Yeah. You're going to get into podcasting. That's a very big undertaking. Yeah, but again, I don't know. You just felt compelled? I did. I did. And look, I mean, I think at the time, you know, my cousin was in a band called Fountains of Wayne. And right in the beginning of COVID, when it was first sort of popping off, he died way too early, left two daughters behind um only person in my family uh really that that showed me that it was possible to kind of be an artist uh and uh it was really he died real

early he was sort of like hey i'm sick and and and i'm i'm going into the hospital now i got this thing and hey i'm on a ventilator and, and never, never came out. And, and, uh, you know, his parents couldn't go visit him. His kids couldn't go visit him, even though they were a mile apart because they closed off the hospitals. And, um, you know, so I, you know, I live up in Ojai, California in a place that, you know, you know, yeah. So COVID almost like didn't really exist there at the time. But then again, when the George Floyd uprising popped off, I really wanted to get out. I really wanted to be a part of that. But then again, when I saw the anti-police movement, anytime I'd go and protest, I'd also stop by Newton Division and just pay my respects.

And I just was so frustrated that I couldn't be both. I couldn't. I'm so pro Black Lives Matter, but also super pro law enforcement and understand that these things are not mutually exclusive. So that's kind of where the idea came from. But, you know, with these guys specifically, it was really hard to get them together. There had been an officer involved shooting at the Pueblos right at that time. And there was an ongoing case. And, you know, what was interesting, the way that we came around is Bo, he started an acting school in the Pueblos in South Central with Shia LaBeouf years ago called Sloss and Wreck. and Bo himself, you know, is an acting student and an actor himself. And there's a show that I wrote about Shreveport, Louisiana,

and I wanted to do a reading of it. And so I got Bo and a bunch of guys from the Pueblos, some of whom were active gang members, to do this reading of the show. And I brought in a bunch of industry people and a bunch of agents and managers to come give these guys an opportunity. But the place that we had the reading was at a place that was sort of run by my friend who's in the LAPD. So you had these cops coming in at that time, setting up chairs and hanging lights. And you had these ex and current gang members performing.

And to put them all on mission together and put them all sort of into by the end, everyone's hugging each other. And now, you know, we're setting up a show with Jerry and Bo where they both love fishing. So they're going fishing and they're taking people fishing with them. But this is the whole thesis. And what I expected to happen really did. I know these two men. I believe in these two men with all my heart. I respect these two men. I believe in these two men with all my heart. I respect these

two men limitlessly. And I knew that they would laugh at the same shit. I knew that they would be finishing each other's sentences. Their experience is what binds them. And again, they can point out flaws in each other. And at times they do. And in the episode, they can point out flaws with the system. They can talk about things that are grossly unfair. You know, this is one of the things that sort of came out that was so interesting is, you know, Jerry was talking about, you know, being, you know, a decades long veteran of the LAPD. How, you know, places would give him free coffee. He would go eat for free. But now walking in, you know, in uniform, people wouldn't let him in, you know, their establishments.

And, you know, on the other side, you know, you got both saying, yeah, I've lived with that my whole life, man. You know what I mean? And there's real points of connection that way. And then I just think from there, it just, you know, I believed in that thesis, and we just kind of kept it going. And I got a group of people around me that I think really believe in it as well. And, yeah, man, so this is what we're doing. One of the things that separates people so much is the lack of communication. And the fact that you're able to get those two guys to sit down and communicate, that opens up doors to so many other people.

And it opens up doors of possibility in people's minds where they can watch that conversation and go, you know what? At the end of the day, we're all just people. And we all believe in what we believe in. And oftentimes we look at the other people on the other side as being the opposite or being the enemy when, in fact, they're just other human beings. That's it. And we have way more in common than we do, like, conflict. And I think with how isolated everyone is and everyone wants to say, I'm on this side or on this side,

it's like if these two guys can sit down to each other who have, again, lost freedom, lost lives, lost friends, taken lives, you know, in this so-called war, but they can actually sit down and strike a real genuine friendship. And then go fishing. And then go fucking fishing. Like, what are you doing? Like standing on the side being like, I hate those people, but you never, you know what I mean? And, and, and, um, yeah, I, I, I believe in that. I believe in that with, with all my heart. Well, what disturbs me is that, that absolute lack of nuance that some people have where, you know, it's this side is bad, that side is bad.

And all that is exacerbated not just by social media but also by foreign entities that are embedded in social media that continually stir up this sort of strife and stir up this conflict. And it's done intentionally to try to divide us. That sounds like very tinfoil hat, but it's all been proven that this is going on. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, man. It's so clearly a weakness. It's so clearly a weakness in the fabric and the structure of our society. So, of course, there—you know, look, man, I lived in Moscow for two years. Did you?

Yeah. What were you doing over there? forced there you know look man i i lived in in moscow for for two years did you and yeah what are you doing over there you know i i um i i was really kind of a a fuck up as a kid joe and and all my favorite people were oh boy yeah i i took it i don't know i took it to a different level maybe but i i um i was really lost as a kid got into a a ton of trouble uh went to school um played a little bit of sports in school but i was getting into a ton of trouble, went to school, played a little bit of sports in school, but I was getting in a lot of trouble. Trouble with the law, trouble, you know, ended up not being able to finish school. And I got really into acting in college, almost as a whim, no aim, it was just almost on accident. And I met a wonderful woman there named Alma Becker and she ended up marrying my wife and I.

And she was sort of fascinated with Eastern European and Russian theater. And when I got done sort of like being in trouble and I went to school, when I couldn't finish school, I decided this is really what I wanted to do and I really wanted to be an actor, but I had no kind of frame of reference. I didn't think it was any different than being a plumber,

being a lawyer, being a cop. Like, what are the steps I have to do? This is what I want to do for a living. She sort of explained, well, it doesn't really quite work that way.

But, you know, she said that, look, if, if, if, if she were,

if she were I, you know, she, she thought that the best theater school in the world was, was the Moscow art theater in, in Russia. And she said, you know, I can that the best theater school in the world was the Moscow Art Theater in Russia. And she said, you know, I can get you an audition for that school. The best theater in the world is in Russia.

According to her. Really? And I certainly believe that. Really? If you look at it, I mean, kind of historically, you know, all of acting that we, you know, that we celebrate is, you know, was really like the kernel of that all started at that theater, at the Moscow Art Theater. Really? Stanislavski and Chekhov, yeah. The first play they did was The Seagull.

And they put that play together in a summer home outside Moscow. And then they came into the city and they put it on. And up until that point. What year was this? This was in the 1920s. So basically all theater, all acting up until that point was very presentational. It was very go to the front of the stage

and kind of proclaim to the audience, you know, face outward. And what they, what Stanislavski came up with, what you hear and his method, which is not, you know, like sitting in your own shit or having people call you your character name. That is not, you know, method acting. This method that he came up with was really about realism on stage. So if you're drinking tea in a scene, really drink tea, turn your back to the audience, talk as if you're actually in the situation. And in 1933, they went on a world tour with this play, The Seagull. They went through Europe and then they went to America. They went to San Francisco, to Chicago and to New York. And that changed acting. All of the sort of great American theater training, you know, from the group theater with Strasberg and Nudahagen, it all came out of their exposure to this one play. Nobody had ever seen acting like that. And it all started at this school. How did they figure that out? How did who figured that out?

The Russians. What was the genesis of that? You know, I think it was, you know, it was this unbelievable conglomeration of a rejection of how theater was before that. But also, you know, like so many things, it takes the sort of perfect storm of people coming together. You had Chekhov, who, you know, look in the Eastern European world, and, you know, Chekhov to Russia is very much what Shakespeare is to us. You have this guy who is writing in this unbelievably realistic way who examined human behavior. He was a doctor, and he really looked at it. He really looked at life sort of in this sort of like omnipotent

or omnipresent way, like he was looking down on it. For example, you would have somebody who was – you have a love story. The seagull, there's always some confusion because it's called a comedy, but it's really ultimately the lead character kills himself at the end, and it's very tragic. But from a doctor, there was something really funny about all these people who were in love with the wrong person. I'm spending my life wanting to love this person. I want this so bad. Yeah, but right next to you is a person who really loves you, and you're ignoring that and just sort of the feebleness and the fragility of human behavior and really examining it. These small characters, giving them real emotional life on stage. actor director Stanislavski who just thought you know what if we actually play this for real and it was a completely revolutionary thing it changed changed everything it changed it's the style of of film acting and theater acting that that is literally taken over everything today that's

fascinating I would have never known that and so you go over there and what is it like to go over to Russia did you understand understand and speak Russian? Did you have to learn that? Did they speak English? So I was over there in the late 90s. It was a totally wild time to be there. And I think looking back at maybe why Alma wanted me to be there was probably because I was such a wild kid, and I was so lost and doing so much kind of fucked up stuff.

So you just pack up your shit. Yeah, man. And back then, you know, no email, no phone. You know, you go over there and it's like, you know, you don't talk to anybody. You don't talk to anybody from your life here. And I think very much I think she knew I needed to get out of here. And so I think that was part of it for her. But, you know, Russia, you know, I can't I mean, the way I would describe it is unbelievable beauty with with unbelievable brutality. For me, there's no way I would be doing what I do today if it wasn't for my time spent there.

do today if it wasn't for my time spent there. You had this unbelievable appreciation for the arts on every corner. There's a statue of a playwright or a poet or an actor. You know, being an actor was an enormously masculine thing to do. It was the training itself was highly rigorous, you know, from playing college sports and, you know, doing fight training. It was by far, without a doubt, the most disciplined and physically strenuous work that I've ever done in my life. How so? So basically the way that the school works is, you know, you have thousands of kids that audition. And then they take 100, and then every semester they'll cut that class in half so you're you're kind of fighting for your life the whole time you're there and they'll graduate 10 kids

and these kids are coming from all over the country and it's really kind of like if you get into that school it's kind of like this golden ticket it's kind of like you know there's there's there's at the time there's 10 times more theaters in Moscow than they were in New York. Theater is religion there. And I'll definitely explain to you sort of why that is, especially coming out of communism and how important theater was in the role it played. But if you graduate from one of those schools, it's not like in America where a lot of theater training is very coddling and it's very like, OK, you can't really play sports. You're not the best student, but come to the theater where you can be a tree and everybody's kumbaya and we get along. If you can get through one of those schools, you're funneled into one of the major theater companies. It's such a huge achievement. They're kind of guaranteed employment after that.

And the people that get the honor of teaching in Russia, it's the highest honor you can achieve. So my teacher, Oleg Tabakov, he'd be the equivalent of like Robert De Niro here. So, you know, if an acting teacher walks into a room, it doesn't matter even if you're in public, if you're a student of that school, you have to stand up and you can't sit down until they sit down. And there's just this unbelievable respect that's built in. You need to learn acrobatics. You have to train ballet. You have to do acrobatics. So you were training in acrobatics and ballet while you were learning acting? Yeah. Yeah. Really? And, uh, how do they structure that? How do they structure what? How

do they structure that kind of training? So it's, it's, it's, um, you know, at first in the first year, I mean, look in the, in the, in the first year you're there, there's no, there's no text. I mean, all of the training is in your voice and in your body um and in rhythm you learn rhythm which is something that's like not taught here um rhythm of communication everything everything so rhythm of objects like literally just learning uh it it's just it's it's studying rhythm so you and i would be able we would be tasked with putting on a show, completing rhythms like, uh, off rhythms and, and, um, how do I explain it? Like I, I give you, I'll give you an example, you know, like one of the training exercises would be, uh,

training your attention, your concentration, right? So you would read a newspaper article and you would just, they would tell you to concentrate on one paragraph and you would read a newspaper article and you would just they would tell you to concentrate on one paragraph and you would read that to yourself and while that's happening everyone in the class would be asking questions say jamie what what color socks are you wearing today he would answer then jamie would say joe what did you have for breakfast you would answer somebody else we would go around and everybody would, while you're reading the article. Meanwhile, the teacher would be clapping, snapping, or coughing. When it was over, he would point to anyone in the class. You have to know how many times he snapped, how many times he coughed, how many times he clapped. Then he would go around and he would say, what did Jay meet for breakfast today? You would have to know all that. And then

he'd have you stand up and you would have to recite the paragraph that you just read and you would have to be able to answer any of those questions so it's these these these actually and that's kind of what the method was and then when you get into the acrobatics it's really really getting just much much more limber you know i was i played football and baseball i played in college i was very very sort of um you know i lifted weights i was a very just tight person. So it was just like partner stretching, stretching the shit out of yourself and then learning how to do, you know, have people kind of climb up your body, learning how to you either support. I guess the equivalent would be like gymnastics or some sort of like, you know, high level tumbling. But you had to do all that and ballet as well.

tumbling, but you had to do all that and ballet as well. And yeah, I mean, not until the second year are you actually, you know, speaking text, you know, all of it is just movement based, observation based. Wow. So it's almost like a bootcamp, like they're building you up. I think so. And then every, you know, every couple months they let you know that whether you're allowed to come back or not. And so you have people's dreams kind of shattered. And I think more than anything else, man, it's the vitality of it. You know, look, during communist times, public gathering was outlawed. So you couldn't go to church. You couldn't get a group of people together and speak. You know, audiences were illegal unless they were politically based and controlled by the Kremlin. So there were a couple state-based theaters, state-run theaters in Moscow, one of them being the Moscow Art Theater. But they had to do pro-state shows.

state shows. And the thing is, is a lot of these people, you know, Meyerhold, for example, he's one of the most famous Russian directors. He would be, he was, he was lauded by the state as this, you know, unbelievable hero of the Russian theater and, you know, Stalin, they would go and they would see his plays. But then somebody looked at it and all of a sudden they said, you know what, and they would see his plays. But then somebody looked at it and all of a sudden they said, you know what? I think there's actually an anti-state message here.

They executed him in his apartment. So actors were sent to prison for being in a play that all of a sudden somebody just deemed as anti-state. And, you know, for me, you know, my main teachers, you know, they were,

they did this play called Cinzano, which was about three guys. One of them lost their moms, three, three best friends. One of them lost their mom. And it's just the three of them sitting in this apartment, drinking a bottle of Cinzano and just sort of lamenting about this loss. And they've been putting this play on for 30 years once they were my teachers during communist times. So they would do this play in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings had they been caught they would have been imprisoned anybody who was in that audience would have been in prison for going to watch that show but they did it anyway because it was that vital to them it was that important to them and you know for me you

know again thinking you know i'm this like kind of tough kid from from from D.C. and that I knew what the hell I was talking about, like being around that, being around people that were that were operating with that set of stakes where the history, the palpability of the tumultuous history that is alive in every breath in that city. Again, the beauty and the brutality. It was it was a game changer for me. I mean, look, man, my, you know, one sort of brief anecdote. You know, when I first went over there, I think my third day there was my birthday. And, you know, again, just I lived in a place called Park Kultury, which is Gorky Park. It's kind of a pretty rough sort of shitty area in Moscow. And I had a translator.

I spoke no Russian at all when I first went over there. And my translator, Max, came and picked me up where I was living. And he took me to the Moscow Art Theater, which is on Silver Sky, right across the street from Red Square. It's a few subway stops in a couple different directions to get there. And once we got there, the one thing that they tell you that's absolutely essential at all times, you always have to have your papers back then. At that point, the mayor ran the mafia, the mayor's police, they didn't really have a salary. They made their money by what they could sort of shake people down for. So we get to the theater, you know, my birthday and my first day of school. And I think like I'm actually making something of my life. I'm here in Russia, but me being the fuck up that I

am, I forgot my papers because I'm just a just, you know, unadulterated asshole. And I said to Max, man, I'm so sorry, man, I forgot my papers, you know, and he said, OK, well, we got to go back and get them. And I said, no, man, let's just go into school, and we'll do it the next day. He said, no, they're not going to let you into the school without your papers. Let's go back and get them. I said, look, man, I'm a grown-ass man. Let me go back and get my papers. You don't have to come with me.

You just took me here. So I convinced him to let me go by myself. And then, again, me being the asshole that I am, and everything's in Cyrillic, I couldn't read anything. I got completely fucking lost, and I just had no idea where I was. I'm three days in Russia I got completely fucking lost. And I just had no idea where I was. I'm three days in Russia. I'm, I'm, I'm, it's getting dark. I'm screwing up. I finally make it back to my place. I get my papers. I make it back to the school, but now I've missed the first day. It's

like completely dark. And I'm on the wrong side of Tverskaya, which is like this main street, about 16 lanes. And I got to get to the other side to get to school. And I just start kind of like, like frogger. I'm like dodging cars, like a total asshole. I'm like, I got to get to the other side to get to school. And I just start kind of like, like frog or I'm like dodging cars, like a total asshole. I'm like, I can't get to the other side. As soon as I get to the other side, boom, AK 47s in my face, Russian police are right there. They get me for crossing. You're supposed to cross below. I didn't know that they're yelling at me in Russian. I give them, you know, 20 rubles. They let me go. And I'm just like, just such an asshole. It's my birthday. I've missed my first day. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. And so I do what any good American would do. I go and treat myself to a meal at McDonald's. Right. So I go and

I get myself some McDonald's. Happy birthday to me. You're a fuck up. Right. Then I'm going back that night and I'm back in Park Hultory and I'm walking down the street. I'm all by myself. It's pitch black out. It's cold as fuck. And I'm walking down the street. I'm all by myself. It's pitch black out. It's cold as fuck. And I'm walking down the street and this, um, Mercedes pulls up in front of me and these two guys get out of the front seat and they reach into the back seat and they grab something out. And I see it's this woman, uh, with, with beautiful red hair and they, she's in like a, like beautiful cocktail dress and they're pulling her out of the backseat of this Mercedes. And I'm the only one on the street and they clearly don't see me, but this woman sees me and she makes like direct eye contact with me.

And they're pulling her out of the side. They're pulling her out of the backseat. She's not fighting them, but she's not helping them either. She's just like completely limp and just being dragged. They take her over to this building and they just start like opening her head up against the side of this building and start smashing her head. So I like forgot where I was and like I ran at this guy and I grabbed him in English. I'm like, man, what the fuck are you doing? What are you doing? And he just pulled out a gun. He just put it like right to my forehead. And he said in English, he's like, go away like

that. And, and, and, you know, Joe, I knew like in an instant, man, I knew in an instant that like, it was like, I was a bug, like I was a bug. Like that was a different, you know, I'd met, I'd seen guns before I'd seen stuff before. I just knew that this was a completely different level. And so, you know, I walked away listening to that, listening to what they were doing. And, and I was like day three. So that's on the brutality side of it. But I think conversely on the, on, on the beauty side of it, you know, there was just, it was, it it was it was a culture that I found like completely full free of pretension you know if you have a conversation with somebody you really have a conversation you look in the eye and there's no hey how you doing hey I'm doing great there's no

bullshit um it wouldn't be strange or weird for to have somebody break down in tears in your first meeting and talking to them and not because they're sort of like emotionally fragile or weak but because they're just so honest and in the moment um i i i i saw this unbelievable national appreciation for the arts uh i i saw people who uh you know you go on the subways and and people weren't reading you know, Us Weekly. They were reading Bulgakov and Tolstoy. It's an unbelievable, unbelievably literate society. Yeah, I don't know, man. I'm so grateful for my time there. And yeah, it really, you know, Alma and that place really, really saved my life. How bizarre is it for you now to see this conflict that we're going through with Russia and Ukraine and the United States involvement, having spent time there? How bizarre is it? You know, I feel horrible.

I'm devastated for, you know, my friends there. I'm devastated for, you know, my friends there. I'm devastated for... It's such a different Moscow. It's such a different Russia than what I knew, you know? There was a free press there when I was there. It was like, you know, it felt... It was the Wild West, man. It was everybody was exploding, you know, it felt, it was the Wild West, man. It was, it was, everybody was exploding, you know, in this, this, this new freedom.

And it was such an optimistic, you could feel the fragility. But there was also, man, you know, if, if, if, if somebody, if you bump somebody's foot by accident, standing on a sidewalk, they, they, if, if somebody, if, if you bump somebody's foot by accident, standing on a sidewalk, they, they have to step on your foot. It's like a Russian tradition. So if like you bump into somebody, they have to bump into you back. Um, if, if there's a line, you know, a lot of people just didn't believe in lines. So like somebody will just cut right in front of you. You know, I remember when there was the, um, the situation at the Russian theater, there's a hostage situation, um, where they just

kind of went in and those people were being held hostage. So they put it in gas and they just kind of killed everybody. Um, I think there's something about, you know, I had a friend who was in the FSB, a young, young guy. And if there was an issue with the police, if we were being loud or somebody was trying to shake us down, you know, I had this 21-year-old friend who was in the FSB. And this 21-year-old kid, you know, could yield such unbelievable power just by – like put the fear of God in soldiers with guns like that. And that's something – I don't know that we have an equivalent of that. I saw that there was, um, I remember them talking about Putin and, and with George Bush at the time. I remember there was that thing. And like, you know,

I looked into his soul and it's like a great man and we really connected. There, there was, there, there was this thing that there was an understanding among Moscovites that he would just toy with this guy. And things like deception and things like manipulation were things that were celebrated in a leader. They weren't, you know, we do the same shit, but we're not allowed to talk about it. We're not allowed to celebrate it. It's un-American. But that style of being ruling with an iron fist, you know, it was still that was still very celebrated. And many Russians, I think,broken and I'm heartbroken for all the people that, you know, all the all the young men that that have fled and left and the families that are being torn apart. I'm heartbroken for what's going on in Ukraine. But I guess I'm not I'm not that surprised, you know.

The the strong leader that is such a big part of Russia and to have this powerful leader who leads with an iron fist, that seems to be something that they embrace. It's a part of the culture. It's a part of the history of that part of the world. Absolutely. And making hard decisions and understanding that things, you know, aren't clean. I mean, look at, you know, I think many Russians would look at, you know, World War II and the way that they handled that war and the way that they approached that war militarily, you know, was, you know, I don't know. It's interesting. I don't know if that would fly here. Well, look what they're doing in Ukraine when they have these mobile crematoriums.

And they're just taking the Russian soldiers that die and just – Yeah. I mean – They don't even have a count of the bodies. There's not even an accurate count of casualties. And look, I think one gun for every five guys in World War II, you know, pick up, you know, when that guy dies, pick up the gun. You know, but look, you know, you look at the way Patton approached, you know, the armor units in World War II. You know, our tanks, you know, couldn't compete with the Germans' tanks.

They just couldn't compete. They looked at those tanks. They said, there's just no way that a Sherman can compete with a Tiger. It's just not going to happen. Well, I know what we'll do. We'll build five times as many. So yes, that's an unbelievable achievement of American industry, an unbelievable achievement of the war effort back home, an unbelievable achievement of the war effort back home, an unbelievable achievement of the engineers that were on the front line fixing those tanks. But what's the other side of that? It takes five Sherman tanks to take down one Tiger tank. So we're just going to produce five times as many. But think about all those tank units. What does that mean for the men inside those tanks? What does that mean? That men inside those tanks? You know, what does that mean?

You know, that means we have to put in five times as many people and that when they go, we got to get a new unit out there, you know, and that's, it's very similar, you know. It's a totally different mentality than we're accustomed to. That's right. And the way we think of war and we think of sacrifice and casualties. I think so. Yeah. They just seems to, it seems to be a part of the culture and it seems to be something that they don't have a problem with. Yeah. I mean,

you know, whether they have a problem with it or not, um, that's probably not the right, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, like, I don't know, you know, it's, you know, I've had one, uh, friend of mine, I can't, I can't use his name, but I've, I've had him on the podcast a couple of times, you know, from, from Russia and he mine, I can't use his name, but I've had him on the podcast a couple of times, you know, from Russia. And he's Ukrainian and his family's in Ukraine sort of just telling us what's going on on the ground and what the sentiment is in Russia at the time. And, you know, I think for a lot of people there who are able to sort of like ignore the propaganda and look beyond it and try to get to the truth. It's, I mean, he looks very much at his own culture and his own government as a cancer. And he looks at Putin as an absolute criminal. And, you know, he's saying that,

you know, he's risking his life by saying that and how Putin deals with his political foes. And, you know, it's I mean, even as I say this to you, man, it's it's, you know, my my gratitude, you know, to that place and to that culture. It's man, it's it's limitless to me. You know, it's like they, again, you know, I'm able to do what I love and feed my kids and have a family. And I'm so grateful for it. And it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for there. And I'm just, I just, I don't know how this is gonna end. I don't know how it ends. I don't know how it works itself out, you know? And, um, I hate, you know, I, I hate that. How do they get objective information over there? How do they

get past propaganda? Yeah. So state sponsored and state controlled everything. Right. And, and, and, and again, look, I want to be, I'm no,. I mean I've talked to the people that I've talked to and I know for this – for my one dear friend, he is able to access free internet, real internet, open internet, and that's how he's getting his information. internet and that's how he's getting his, his information. Um, but I don't think that that's an easy thing to achieve and, um, contact with people in Ukraine, the disparity in what the, the, the, the, the propaganda and the, the, the, the national sort of news outlets are saying versus what people are saying on the ground. Um, you know, and then I, I think what was huge is, is, is this, this, this draft, you know, that this was just supposed to be a military exercise. And then all of a sudden people are being, you know, called up and look, it's, it is, it's, uh, one thing I'll say about being there that, that, um, you know, really affected me as well as I, you know, I've been

to so many countries as I'm sure you have, and there's, everybody has this sort of like nationalistic, people love their country, people want to celebrate their country. You know, in Russia, I'd never seen anything like it, except for here, you know, like, if you're a strong man, okay, good, then you're a Russian man, you know, you are you, you're good. I played, I played pro baseball while I was there, which is, you know, definitely not a big achievement at all. But, you know, you're a good baseball player, you're a Russian baseball player.

You're a good actor, you're a Russian actor. I mean, it's just like good and quality. And I think we have that as well. And I've never really quite seen that sort of unadulterated, just absolute, you know, love and reverence for their country than I speaks to that culture. Yep. Because, I mean, Fedor Emelianenko, if not the greatest heavyweight of all time, came from Russia. I mean, the Dagestan region that produced Islam Makachev

and Khabib Nurmagomedov and, you know, Ankalayev and so many elite fighters. And the caliber of the athlete that comes out of there, both in wrestling, other combat sports, boxing. I mean, they're just very, very exceptional, which speaks to the like this, the quality of the character of the people that come from that culture. Yeah, I think, too, you know, when you talk about the traces of Soviet times, you know, you had a... You owed it to your country, you know, to be the... You know, you weren't there for your own sort of achievement or your own, you know, money

that you're trying to put on the table, your own glory. You know, it was about your country. It was about something bigger. And see, I think people will suffer for that. You know, you have in the same way, one gun for every one weapon for every five men. You know, you got to work harder. And I think that that's something that's really come up in this draft, too. I think that even people who are adamantly against it do feel like they, you know, why should this other Russian man die in my place?

So, yeah, I'm going to go. Did you ever watch the documentary Icarus? I didn't, but I meant to. It's a crazy documentary. I heard that. It's insane. It's a crazy argument. It's insane.

But a big part of it is about the doping that went on during the Sochi Olympics, which was all completely state-sponsored, where they swapped out. They literally put performance-enhancing drugs in all of their athletes, every single one of them. The ultimate goal was to achieve the highest level of performance in the Sochi Olympics to elevate Russia and to show Russian superiority. And they managed to do this through this Gregory Rechenkov guy. And he, just by total happenstance, runs into this guy who produces this documentary who is a cyclist and he decides that he wants

Brian Fogle he wants to do this race completely clean and then he's going to go to Gregory and tell him like what what his goals are what he wants to do and this guy's supposed to be the head of the anti-doping agency in Russia. But really, it's bullshit. He's the doper. The doper, yeah. And so he tells them exactly what to do and how to do it and how to cycle off. And during that time, then it gets revealed while they're in the middle of filming the documentary.

Brian, who's a brilliant documentarian, brilliant filmmaker, just steps in shit, just totally gets lucky and finds himself in this situation where Gregory and the Soviet Union, or excuse me, Russia is getting exposed for doping and he has to flee the country because he's a part of it. So he comes to America and just completely spills the beans, tells them exactly how they did it, what they did. And now to this day, he's in witness protection and they're hiding him and there's assassination attempts on him. He's they did. And now to this day, he's in witness protection and they're hiding him and there's assassination attempts on him. He's he's completely fucked.

And they've, you know, taken his family and taken all their money and pulled them out of their homes. And it's it's a wild, chaotic thing. But it shows what kind of commitment they have to this idea of Russian exceptionalism and Russian conquering in sport. And how far they'll take it if you reveal and if you go against them. And, you know, look, you know, I was in a car the other day when I landed here yesterday from Savannah. And the guy was – we were just talking about Austin. We were talking about Texas. And he was just – the guy was from El Salvador.

And he was just like, you know, just like people in this country just don't appreciate anything, just have no idea. It's the greatest country on earth. And, like, they just have no idea. And that really also was and is my big takeaway for spending time over there, You know, just how unbelievably lucky we are here. And I know, I mean, we started the conversation from out there about just how fucked up everything is, and of course it is. But, like, look, man, I'm like a guy who fucking puts on makeup and says lines for a living, and I can come on here,

you know, the biggest platform in the world, and we can talk about it. And, you know, the biggest threat, you know, to me is that, like, I'm going to lose an acting role. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, that's, that's a real thing, man. And, and I just think, you know, this country is just, uh, I just think so many people in this country have no idea how good they have it and how, how great, uh, you know, to me, it's the best country on earth. It certainly isn't. It's just we don't have a reference. If you're here your entire life and this is how you view things, you're like, well, this place is fucked up.

That's right. And it certainly is. It certainly, I mean, we're human. Humans, we're filled with all sorts of flaws. And this culture and the way our civilization is run, it's filled with all sorts of flaws. But it's the best example we have for a free society currently on earth, which is hard for people to believe, especially people that look at all the inequality and look at all the chaos and look at all the things that are wrong with this country. And there's certainly a lot.

It's still the best place. Agreed. Because it's the best place to communicate. It's the best place to openly communicate. Because it's the best place to communicate. It's the best place to openly communicate. That's why things like what we were talking about, like with FBI being embedded in Twitter, trying to suppress certain narratives, it's so dangerous. Because that's what leads you to communist China. involved in financing all that and profiting from all that are the ones that put these people in power and then control how the masses behave and think and communicate it's leading us down this

slippery road and that's what scares the shit out of people and i think rightly so agreed agreed yeah i mean i and and i think we also at the, at the, the same time, you know, I, I think we need to be vigilant and we need to, we need we trust, that we just know, okay, look, this guy at least is telling his truth. There's no agenda behind it. There's no—they're not trying to convince you of anything. It's so unbelievably vital to hang on to that and to know that people do have their hands in this information. Do they have any kind of podcast like this in Russia? I mean, is that even possible to do? I don't think so, man.

I mean, again, like I'm not, you know, I remember when I was there, you know, there was the Moscow Times and, you know, there was the Exile. I know you've had, yeah, you know, it was, there was this explosion of free press and really like gonzo journalism over there, you know? And the, but I don't know, to be honest with you, man, when I was there, I was a little bit sickened by the expat community, you know? There was like, there was a real,

there was a real sort of like hedonistic, I mean, look, I think probably a lot of it was me being kind of self-important and I was on this kind of like acting pilgrimage and I took myself super seriously. But, you know, there's a lot of people that were going over there to, you know, be with as many Russian women as they could. And there's a lot of people going over there to sort of, um, that I felt pretty exploit that, that, that they were exploiting. And, and, and, uh, you know, I, I, uh, there was, there was very distinct, different Moscow's when I was there, you know, there was the Western version of, of Moscow, which was just, you know, totally different. And, and, and then there was, you know, for me, I just, I, what I think was so lucky is I was going to you know, totally different. And, and, and then there was, you know, for me, I just, I, what I think was so lucky is I was going to school with, with, with Russians, you know,

with, with, with people, you know, you'd have, you'd have kids who would bring their entire families down from the mountains, from the Cox, you'd have like nine people in a little apartment and the whole family would be like cooking on a hot pot because this one kid had this opportunity to go to school there. And it was this like level of support and encouragement. And, you know, the relationships that I formed, you know, with these people, we grew up so wildly differently that the connections were, were, were so beautiful. And, um, you know, you had, um, you, you know, I just, uh, I don just, I don't know, I was really lucky that I got to be in Russian in Moscow that way. And that's not an easy thing. And I'm worried about whether that's even possible now.

Did you learn Russian? So, yeah, I mean, when I was there, especially playing baseball, you know, none of those guys spoke any English. I had a translator in school. But, yeah, I got all right. I got all right. I mean, one thing I've noticed that, you know, when I come home, you know, when I'm around Russian people, I always try to speak a little, little Russian and there's just this, you know, there's just this, this, I don't know whether it's pride. I don't know what it is, but I'll, I'll, I'll throw out a couple of words and they'll just answer in English. Like, fuck you, motherfucker. I learned your language. I don't want to hear your fucking pig answer in English. Like, fuck you, motherfucker. I learned your language.

I don't want to hear your fucking pig brushing and butchering. Who do you think you are, motherfucker? You know, like, and, but, you know, like, while you were there, like, people, there were people that you knew spoke English. And they just would refuse to speak it over there. It's, like, not going to happen. Interesting. Yeah. Did you learn how to read it? A little bit.

That was harder. I mean, like, if I really, you know, take my time. But, I mean, you know, at that point I could barely read English. that was harder I mean like if I really you know take my time but I mean I you know at that point I could barely read English you know I mean I was just such an asshole I mean I remember when I was there you know we'd have these things called Black Tuesday and and all the teachers would would you would come in and they would sort of tell you whether you could continue or not and they would kind of each break you down about like your strengths and your weaknesses and you would just see people just crying their fucking eye like being devastated walking out of there and i remember you know i walked in there once and and these teachers were like uh

john you're uh they're like john your talent is like a gem but uh they're like you completely but it's completely unformed you lack any semblance of elegance and you know like they're, like they're saying this thing, like push the, you know, like they're, they're saying, and then like, you got the trade, like you're waiting for like the shoe to drop with the translator. And then they're like, we bet you've never read a book. And I was like, yep, gotcha. I've never, you know, like bingo, you know what I mean? And then they're like, you know, from this moment on never, never let there be another day where you're not reading a book and and and I took them up on that you know I took them up on that she really really was some of the best advice I ever got how do we shift that over to here dude gotta read yeah gotta fucking read you got to take in other people's

perspectives and work it's a vital part of being a human being that's right it takes a while for people to understand and read that or understand and, and, and, and, you know, take that in. It's a,

it's so important for the human condition. And it's such a, an unbelievably available resource here in America. And yet people would rather go on Tik TOK. That's right. It's, it's such a hard thing to encourage too, because it requires discipline. And if you're not raised with discipline, if It's such a hard thing to encourage, too, because it requires discipline.

And if you're not raised with discipline, if it's not incorporated into you very early, it takes a monumental shift in the way you think about life to incorporate that. How do you do that with your children? Well, fortunately, my kids have been around me when I've been, you know, during the time that they're alive, I've been at my most disciplined and most best. You know, thank God they weren't around me when I was 21. Right. You know, and they're seeing the example of someone who works hard and works all the time and has a lot of discipline and also wants to talk to them about things. And I want to talk to them about the value of difficult things and about failure and about like sports.

They're involved in sports, which I think are very important to kids. You certainly can develop assholes through sports. But I think there's something about winning and losing and effort and reward for that effort that's a vital part of being a human being. And through that, through sports, and through any difficult thing, you develop your human potential. I think you only find it through struggle. You only find it through a difficult thing to acquire or a difficult thing to accomplish. And then doing that and recognizing that your boundaries are actually movable and that the boundaries that hold you back now are not permanent. They're just, they speak to your state at the moment, but that state, you can advance that state and you can, you can do things to make your perspective more nuanced and enhance it. And, and I, you know, hopefully they

can learn from that, but there's also the problem that they're growing up in a loving household. They're growing up, you know, the examples they have as people that are very kind and nice. And I think you do need to be exposed to a certain amount of assholes to understand the full scope of human beings. No question. And I feel, I feel so much of, you know, you job as a father is creating this kind of adversity in my kid's life. I have to. And I need my children to learn the lessons that I've learned. I just really can't have them learn it the way that I learned it.

Right, right. You know, because it could have gone either way. And most of the time it doesn't go the way you went. That's right. Yeah. It's like if you get 100 kids and you thrust them into horrible environments, very few of them come out to be this person who has forged themselves through the fire of adversity. Most people succumb, unfortunately. I think that's right.

And I think most people also don't have, I mean, look, I mean, through all the trouble and all the shit that I got into, I had a loving, supporting family who had my back. And I think that's when I, when I think about the inequality in this country, I mean, one of the main themes and what I'm trying to do with this podcast is just, I've seen firsthand how the legal system, how so many of the systems that are in place, you know, people who don't have that infrastructure, it is so grossly fucking unfair. And they don't have an example to go off of. One of the things about human beings is we imitate our atmosphere.

That's right. And we become accustomed to seeing people work hard, achieve things and people that are kind and ethical and honest. And we look at that as like, that's a value that I want to aspire to achieve. And if you don't have that around you, and all you have around you is crime and drug ridden streets and gang violence, and you don't know any other way to think or behave, you don't have an example of it. And there's very little effort done to change those neighborhoods. I mean, if you look at the amount of effort and the amount of resources that we pump into other countries, we pump into the military, we pump into all these various things, we always seem to have money for it.

Imagine if you're a child and you're being raised in this community that it's essentially been the same way for decades and decades with no help. That's right. You feel like an outsider and you feel not, you feel like the system is rigged in many ways. It is. I couldn't agree with that. I couldn't agree with that more. And I think, you know, in terms of, in terms of our children, it's, it's, you know, how do you, how do you get to them to, to see that, understand that, experience it, experience it a little bit. Uh, but, but, but, but, but, but also, you know, understand those inequities and, and, and, and try to inspire

them to, to, to do something about it. And, and, and I, and I, I think for me, it's, it's just, again, you know, we, people talk about, you know, like masculinity and, and, and again you know we people talk about you know like masculinity and and and you know this this this term that gets thrown around all the time like this toxic masculinity and whatever the fuck that means and you know I just think that again it's like what are the examples that we're putting forward and what what what are the examples of of of people you know as fathers what what kind of men are you surrounding yourself by? What are the things that are important to you? And I think it's not, to me at least, it's not, you know, some sort of rejection of these classically masculine traits. I think that, you know,

having the ability and understanding you have the responsibility to keep your family safe is absolutely essential in being a man and in providing. I think having a healthy relationship with violence, having an understanding of it. I think, you know, teaching your kids to have a relationship with violence where, you know, they're not being ruled by fear or shame, but they can have some sort of understanding, some sort of, you know, they can touch it. They understand it a little bit. They know what they're doing. I think it's essential. And I also think, you know, being accepting, being kind, being open, you know, being generous, being empathetic are also, you know, part of being a man. And I think that, you know, being generous, being empathetic are also, you know, part of being a man.

And I think that, you know, oftentimes because so many of the people I think who, you know, are kind of leading the charge and who have, you know, so much sort of have so much of the platform at their disposal are kind of leading in these sort of toxic ways where it's all a bunch of bombast and bullshit and to me you know like it's been my experience you you know folks who really know what they're doing in in that world um really don't need to you know show off about it at all you know the people that are high achievers they don't really have to beat their own chest and i think that's right. Blow their own horn. Yeah. Yeah. What we think of as toxic masculinity is really a bunch of losers. So a lot of it is like the worst example,

but you could get the same, you know, there's no term toxic femininity, right? But there's, there's toxic human beings and some of them happen to be male and some of them happen to be female, but it's not an indictment on male, you know, the male gender of the species. That's crazy. Right. And the idea that you don't need men, that somehow or another, like, the female is the future. It's like, what are you talking about? That's crazy.

You need a balance. There's a yin and a yang in this life for a reason. That's right. All of it goes together. That's right. Just everybody has to do better. That's right. All of it goes together. That's right. Just everybody has to do better. That's right. And I think that's something that I've really, you know, go, you know, on this, this thing that I'm trying to do. I'm really just trying to put up examples of that men and women who, again, really, really walk that walk and are not leading with sort of just, you know, and trying to give whatever platform I have to those kinds of people who are real examples of that.

What was your your big break as an actor? Do you think it was The Walking Dead? Was that the big one? Yeah. I mean – You were fucking great in that. Oh, thanks. You played such a good creep.

Such an asshole, right? Yeah. But it was so believable. Like all of it was so believable. Thanks, man. It was really good. Thanks. I mean, I think that it was the, for me, it was the perfect role at the perfect time in my life. These things just like they really, you know, married each other.

You know, I'd been busting my ass for about 10 years before that and just failing miserably. You know, I think a lot of people think that you just like, you know, that I'd been doing it for a long time. But I was still really a pretty big fuck up, Joe. And I was hitting brick wall after brick wall in my life. I was kind of a shit bag. I wasn't a good wasn't, uh, I wasn't a good boyfriend. Uh, I was, um, I was still, um, you know, and having, having episodes of, of, of violence on the, on the street, I was still getting into street fights, still getting into trouble. Um, I was, uh, drinking way too much. Um, on, uh, July 3rd, 2009, um, I was out, I lived in Venice beach and, uh, I, um, every July 4th, we had like a really big July 4th party. And, uh, I was walking my dogs and in Venice beach. And, um, I, uh, I, I,

I stopped because I saw there's, there's like a big house party. It was this thing called first Fridays and in Venice where people could drink on the street. And I saw this older couple and they were playing the didgeridoo, uh, you know, the didgeridoo? Okay. So they're playing. That's pretty good, bro. And yeah, so they were playing the didgeridoo and they were probably like a couple in their sixties. And I saw this one guy outside the party who was kind of like a ringleader. He's dancing around, drinking forties, you know, they're kind of like want to be tough guys. And the guy went over to the woman who was playing the didgeridoo and he lifted it up and he like put it on his crotch. So it looked like this old woman

was like blowing his crotch. And I remember just like looking at her, uh, her, uh, husband and he was just like broken. And like, I saw this couple, like they had to pack their stuff up and it was just like, and I don't know, Joe, I I like there was like something about that like I was drawn to it like I was supposed to see it that day and I like saw red and like right at that point uh that same guy um he he called my dog over I my dogs are super well trained and I I walked them I didn't they weren't on their leash and I had this one dog named boss it's great pit bull and he's like oh my gosh look at that dog we're probably 50 yards away and he called the dog over and boss went over to him and the guy's like pet my dog and kind of like roughing up my dog a little bit just kind of like manhandle him because he's a big pit bull

whatever it was and I called my dog back and the guy, uh, the guy held onto him and didn't let him come back to me. And, uh, again, man, I, you know, some part of me wanted this to kind of happen, you know, and, and, and I went over to him and, uh, I grabbed my dog and I just, I was like, boss, let's go. And I pulled my dog away and he's like, Hey man, get off my dog. And, uh, you know, one thing kind of led to another, but I started to walk away and him and a couple of his friends started to follow me and he, he pushed me in the back and, uh, I turned around and I hit him with a right hand and, um, he got knocked out standing up and he fell down and he, he cracked his head on the pavement. And, uh, his friends all kind of jumped on me.

I tried to put my back against the tree and do what I could, but they started to get the better of me. Police came. And, you know, long story fucking long, you know, you don't look like he wasn't waking up. And, you know, they were taking him away. I was, like, sitting there handcuffed to the side. Some friends of mine came. I got them to get my dogs out of there. But, you know, I'm on the side where there's police everywhere.

People are, like, from that party pouring beers on my head. And I'm just kind of sitting there. And then they took me down to Pacific Division. And the guy still wasn't waking up. And, you know, I'd gotten in trouble in the past in Washington and, you know, the police were just saying, like, hey, man, like, you know, if he doesn't wake up, that's kind of that. And, you know, I was handcuffed to this bench in the Pacific Division

and I remember just really having to take a piss. And, you know, nobody was letting me and they you know they were kind of giving me shit about you know what's gonna happen if this guy doesn't wake up and I remember sitting there on that bench that you know if this guy doesn't wake up and I'm going in that direction now I knew and it was as clear as any thought I've ever felt that I I was gonna have to sort of get in touch I was gonna have to be the devil I was gonna have I was going that route all this acting shit all this this friends and fun it's over I got to go be the

worst and most vicious part of myself if I'm going through that door and it wasn't like something like trying to steal myself or act like I'm you know man I'm nothing but I was I was as sure of anything that that's what needed to happen and it was clear and I wasn't scared I just knew it but then my next thought I just looked up and I was like, but if you can just get me out of this. And I remember just saying it. If you can just get me out of this, I swear to you, like I am done. Like I am done. And I will dedicate my life to my lady.

I will dedicate my life to my work. And I will dedicate my life to you. And I will dedicate my life to service. Like I will dedicate my life to you and I will dedicate my life to service like I will dedicate my life and you know literally man I'm not trying to you know one second later cop came by and said the guy woke up and you know man that could have gone yeah anyway and and, again, you asked me about Walking Dead, but literally one year after that, July 3rd, 2010, I was on set of my first season of Walking Dead. Wow. And, you know, not drinking, focused, engaged to be married, had my first kid on season two.

and, and again, man, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm like, so like profoundly, like humbled by that and grateful for that, like so grateful for it. But I'm also like aware of like how unfair it is that so many people don't get that shot and it doesn't work out that way. And, uh, but yeah, you know, like getting to then kind of play a role like that, that had a real beginning, middle and end kind of like built in, you know, it was, uh, and, and, and at a time in my life where I just totally stripped all the fat out of my life, the people I was hanging out with, the way I was behaving, I got ridiculously disciplined pretty much about every part of my life. And, um, yeah, so it was, so yeah, I'm sorry. It's such a grandiose answer, but it's, it's walking dead,

but it was also that time at walking dead and the people that I was around and what that, what that all meant. But yeah, it was, um, you know, my life completely, completely and utterly changed there. And I think the sad thing is, man, it's not like that was the first time that happened. I mean, I had so many times where I should have learned that lesson so many times. And, and, and because I had some wiggle room, because I had people looking out for me, because I came from a family with a father who was engaged and, and, and, you know, had the means and, and, and, and, uh, had the means and the ability to help me out. And that is so, you know, vastly unfair. And it's a reason why now, I mean, it's like on the show, it's like why we're hanging out

and spending time with so many people in this LWOP community, with the Life Without Parole community in prison. And these guys who, you know, like me, I fucked up, you know, made a horrible mistake, did something, did something without a doubt inexcusable. But you talk to some of these guys and they have this fluency with their shame, this fluency with, they've spent so much time living in, in their in in in the vileness of what they've done that they they they they they they this they've spent so much time like empathizing and and and putting themselves in their victims shoes. They are different people 20 years later than the crime that they committed. And their entire life now is dedicated to service. It's dedicated, you know,

this Elwha community in Calipari prison that we hang out with, you know, they've really changed so much of the culture in that prison. I mean, that was one of the most violent prisons in all of the state of California. And California prisons are notoriously violent. And this community, they broke down the racial walls. You know, this LWAC community, this group, these guys who basically have a living death sentence, they've all banded together. It used to be, you know, you're in a different race. You can't even talk to each other. But these guys, this multiracial group of men have gotten together and they provide support for each other. They have programming. They have hope. agrees. You know, he was part of the felony murder rule. You know, he was part of a home invasion where someone was murdered and he didn't pull the trigger, but he was there

and got life without parole. And, you know, when you talk to him, when you talk to him about how much time he has spent thinking about the horror that those people must have felt when they woke up and knew he was in the home and how just utterly disgusted and ashamed he is. Look, I'm not advocating to forgive him. I'm not advocating that anybody should free him. I'm not advocating, but I am advocating that we can learn from him and that we should listen to him. And he's such a dedicated father and he puts all his life now into helping other people who are coming in with this sentence that, you know, if you go into prison and you have that sentence, what are you going to do? I mean, what are you going to do?

There's no reason not to engage in violent behavior. There's no reason not to try to put money in your, you and your family's pocket that way. And he goes right to those people and he leads them to a better place. I'm a huge believer that only people that really have been in that valley, you know, can lift others out of it, you know uh i'm i'm i'm deeply inspired by him man deeply inspired that's wild that's it's so true what you're saying about there's moments in your life where things could have tipped one way or the other and that's a giant percentage of the people that are locked up totally but they could have had an opportunity to turn their life around but there was nothing there for them and they didn't have the infrastructure the people around them or the power the money or the you know they've been generations of people that that that that that had been held down and

uh you know it's real and and and um you know we we had uh we had a guy on a couple weeks ago, Richard McKinney. He was a man who—he was a Marine. He was force recon, and he was overseas, you know, during 9-11. And he developed this, developed this unbelievable hatred for Muslims and he there's a beautiful documentary coming out called Stranger at the Gate

that's about his life and even the guys in his unit were like hey man you gotta calm down with that shit and then I believe he got injured and then he came home, he's from Muncie, Indiana. And he just had this unbelievable hatred of Muslims, and it just ran kind of everything in his life.

And at the same time, the Muslim community in Muncie was growing. There was this wonderful woman who created something called the Muncie Islamic Center, created something called the Muncie Islamic Center. And she's this woman who's bringing in, she brought in over 157 Muslim refugees into America. And he was seeing more and more Muslims in the community. It was driving him crazy. So he devised a plan to go and blow up the mosque.

And he was going to go blow up this Islamic Center. He built a bomb. He worked on the plan for over two years and walked in, built a bomb, walked into the center. When he walked in there, he was met by that woman, Bibi. She greeted him in this way that he had never seen before. She invited him. She gave him a Koran and he really wanted to read it he really wanted he thought that he was gonna find proof in this Quran that that that that that that all these people just wanted you know Americans

dead I mean that's that's just what his mindset was so he felt like he had sort of won so he decided to leave that day and come back still with this plan to blow up the Islamic Center on a Friday where there would be 200 people there. Then the woman invited him into her home and cooked for him. Now, years later, he's a devout Muslim. He's the president of that Islamic Center. Whoa. And they are like family.

And I had both of them on the podcast. Man, it's – Holy shit. Yeah. And I don't know man it's just like we're we're so we're so ready to say you know fuck you we're so ready to just slam the door on people and i don't know you look man you started the conversation you know some of your favorite people in your life are people really fucked up when they were young you know i don't know man i think you you your capacity for going in that valley again

um is directly relative to your capacity to lifting others out of it and and your capacity to create havoc directly relates to your capacity to create good and connection and growth. And I really believe that. This is amazing that one person who is of considerable character and love can change the way that guy thinks about things. And I'll tell you, you sit down with her and, brother, in like two seconds, you're like, oh, wait, you're magic. She's just one of those people. And I asked her.

She would have him in her home home and she would cook for him she's a wonderful cook and she'd have these huge meals and I asked him when you walked into her home when you ate her food were you still planning on blowing her up and her family and he said absolutely and I asked her knowing that now if you had known that then, like, how would you feel? And she said, look, without missing a beat, I still would have had him in my home. Still would have had him in my home. And that's my job. That's my job.

That's my duty. Wow. Holy shit. It's crazy. That's crazy. It's nuts. But it's real. Like, when you see them together, it's not, there's, like, nothing put on.

There's nothing, you know. He's not, Like when you see them together, there's like nothing put on. There's nothing, you know. He's not like, you know, it's so easy to sort of dismiss people as bonkers or like it. But, you know. I don't know. It's very easy to write people off. But even people that are capable of great evil are also capable of great love. that are capable of great evil are also capable of great love it's just people people are oftentimes a victim of the thoughts that bounce around their own mind and of circumstance and of momentum and it's crazy how one moment of meeting one person starts a totally different path in this guy's life. That's right. Wow. That's right. Yeah.

So you go from this horrific moment where you might be locked up in jail for manslaughter for the rest of your life, and then all of a sudden a year later you're on The Walking Dead. You're on this, which by the way, that first season, I think The Walking Dead kind of lost its way later on. I stopped watching it when it became like murder porn but the early seasons especially like season one god damn was that a good show i mean it just captivated the the minds of people like because it was so obviously it's fiction and it's you know it's a horror horror show. But it so speaks to the human condition when confronted with adversity and horrific circumstances. What happens when you strip off the veneer of comfort that dictates so much of our behavior every day.

And, you know, it's really cool for me specifically to kind of play this character who was the first one that was kind of onto it. The first one that was like, you know, these rules, they don't apply anymore in this world. And look, I think for me as just a performer, you know, all the way around, man, is there was a wildness. There was a recklessness that I really sought after just kind of in my life and in my own behavior that I was really kind of addicted to. But it always led me to really kind of horrible ends. And I was a real big fuck up. But I found something with this where I could take all of that and put it into work. And, man, it's been my sword, man. That's where the depth of that character comes from, right?

I mean, that's the advantage that you have of having all those fuck ups. Yeah. I mean, I think so. And the advantage of, you know, I also think, I'd be curious to hear what you thought about it but i i you know you know now you know you you are who you are it's like your intentionality i think intentionality is so important you know like where are you when when you begin like what is what is what is your goal like what why did you start this thing in the first place? And always kind of going back to that and to keep yourself honest. You know, when The Walking Dead started, there was no craft service.

There was no trade. It was like a bunch of us in the fucking woods. It was like Frank Darabont. He had done Shawshank Redemption. He had tried to get the show on HBO. They said no. AMC had like Mad Men and Breaking Bad. They're like, all right, we'll do your shitty little zombie show.

We'll pick it up for six episodes, which basically means we don't really believe in this thing at all, you know? And, but he got these group of people together and it was so humble and everybody's so, and, and, and the thing that's crazy about like a zombie show and, and, and about like living in a different world like that, there are rules, right? So if you put a bunch of actors in the woods and you have six people walking through the woods, and if you make any noise, the zombies could come. If one fucking actor is sitting there thinking about, okay, like, do I look cool here? Or how's my makeup? Or if one person isn't fully committed, you literally shit on the entire thing. Like the reality of that world is totally screwed. And it just, it was sort of this like perfect storm of people that were young and hungry and committed. You had a bunch of people who are

just starting families. So there wasn't, you know, there was no like going to bars or restaurants or any of that bullshit. It was just really, really gratitude. So lucky to be here. Let's make this work. Who gives a fuck if it's six episodes or 12, let's just make this work. We all believed in Frank and, and, uh, you know, there's something really to that, to the intentionality behind it. And, you know, I think that's often something, you know, I had a baseball coach who once said, you know, when you're at bat and things start spiraling out of control and, you know, baseball is such a heady sport. And, you know, when you start, all of a sudden you start getting in your head and you start going down that spiral, you need to step out.

And he would say, remember why you did it in the first place. Like, remember why you wanted to play baseball in the first place. Go back to the time when you were a kid, when you just fucking loved it and like go there. And as long as it takes, just go there. Then step back in the batter's box. And I really I I'm asking myself that a lot now, you know, because there's a lot, you know, how the conversation started doing this podcast with me where, you know, I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, what, you know, and I keep on having to go back to that thing because it does, man. It comes with a cost and especially as the thing grows.

But I keep going back to it. It's the people that I have back to it's the people that I have on. It's the people that I have on. They're the people I want my kids listening to. Well, you're doing an amazing job with it. And I think having these crazy life experiences and these journeys that you've gone on in your own mind, it really works well because of that, because you're very charitable and you're very compassionate and it comes through.

It's very obvious that you have a more balanced view of what human beings are capable of than the average person. You know, I appreciate you saying that, man. I think I think I think mostly, you know, I just kind of I just kind of shut the fuck up. You know what I mean? Like I know that I'm not bringing on people that I don't know. I know them. And we have really, really close relationships. So it's, you know, it's special forces soldiers and fighters and surgeons and teachers.

and fighters and, and, um, surgeons and teachers. It's, it's, you know, they, they come from all, but, but every person within their own community, it's not just that they have this job. It's like, I know them. I know how respected they are in their own community. I know how much they've given me. I know how much they've added to my life, how much value they put in. And again, it was coming in this vacuum when I just really saw fuck man we were listening to the wrong people everyone's just like spouting out all this bullshit like these people know man these people know and um and i'm not saying hey they they're the end all but on this subject they've been there i promise you that they've really been there and uh yeah i think it comes also just in the way that i work as an actor and and you know the greatest thing about what I I get to do is I get to go and you know we we go do Fury and and we get to talk to you know guys

who are really in tanks in World War II yeah I think I mean there's like not that many of those those guys are the best among us you know I I got got to, you know, Kevin Vance, that's where I met Kevin Vance, you know, Navy SEAL. Just beautiful man who's just taught, he's had such a deep impact on my life. And, you know, actors, that to me is everything. And it fucks me up sometimes because I'm actually way less interested in, in, you know, like what the director or the producer kind of think about what I'm doing. I'm, I'm, I'm just on those people and, and, and that opportunity to, to learn from those folks, you know, you, you, you have somebody, whether you're a vet or a police officer or anything,

you open up to somebody, you bring them into your world like that's sacred man that's that's it that's that's that's it that's a trust that i i really really i really value and and and really mean something to me um and it's again it's my sword and work like that that it gives you a north star in this in this kind ofalleable, weird thing where you've got so many different agendas at play and what people kind of want, you know, a film is super collaborative and everybody, everybody's got their own kind of agendas there. But, but, but, you know, if you can find some truth, it's like, man, just, just, just go try to do that. You know, learn that trade, learn how to handle that weapon, learn how to coach that tennis, you know, like, you know,

learn that shit. It's, it's, uh, that's, that's busy work how to coach that tennis. You know, like, you know, learn that shit. It's, it's, that's, that's busy work that you can actually do. You can, if you put the time in, you can actually achieve something. It's not just, hey, man, let's hope for the best. I'll get it on the next take. Fuck that. I can't. I just, I don't have that.

I wish I could. I just, I don't have the stomach for that. What do you want to do with your show? I mean, your show has picked up all this momentum, your podcast. It's really gotten to a point where you have a big audience now and a lot of people are listening into it. Do you have a goal? Did you anticipate it growing to where it is now? When you first started doing it, did you just do it, say, I just feel like this is something I'm compelled and then we'll see where it goes? Yeah, I'm working with a group of people that I really believe in.

There's a there's a group of young filmmakers and podcasters that that that I really believe. I think they share the ethos of the show. No, man, I you know, I think what the goal is and what we're really trying to do is give a platform to the folks that come on. And I don't mean on my show. So what we're trying to do, like that fishing show that I mentioned, my friend Kevin Vance is now going to go do a show where he's going around and he's talking to he's talking to special forces. He's talking to members of the community that he really knows and help them deal with issues that they're dealing with. We've got, you know, another show like like I told you about with the readings that we're putting on with Sloss and Wreck. So, I mean, ultimately what I'm trying to do, you know, there's the Silverback Chronicles, which are two two career police officers in

Baltimore that we had on their part. Their Their group of cops in Baltimore called the Silverbacks are a bunch of all black cops, a unit there that are just totally policing for the right reasons, respect to the community. They're no nonsense. They've got an amazing podcast sort of about just, you know, the streets of Baltimore. And you're involved in all these shows? Yeah. So our job is to give them the infrastructure and our job is to promote and help all of these different things. So you're essentially like running a network. You know, that's what the guys that I, that's the word that, you know, the guys that I'm working with keep using. I mean, one thing about me, Joe, and it's probably the one area in my life I remain just enormously sloppy.

I'm not a businessman. I'm just not. I don't know how to really think that way. Um, you know, I ultimately, you know, I ultimately supporting these folks and, and, and giving them this platform and then providing them that infrastructure that I can get behind and believe in. And as long as, as long as people are still coming to us and wanting to come on and, and, and, and there's people that I, that, that I'm really interested in speaking with, I'm, I'm, I'm going to keep doing it. But it's hard, you know, I, I go to do a role and for better or worse, I kind of have to shut down, man. I really do. And I'm not I'm kind of disgusted by by actors who just talk about the process all the time.

And it's really not my bag. It's really not something. But but for me, there is a necessity to it's the only way I know how to work is to kind of push everything else out. So, you know, I can't do this while I'm doing that. So it's a really hard thing to navigate. You know, it's a really hard thing to navigate. But what made you decide? Was it the people you're working with that decided to do all these additional shows as well? Yeah.

And I thought I want it to be more than just giving these folks a voice. I want to, you know, my my my Sebastian Richardson, people called him Bam Bam on the street. It's from Shreveport, Louisiana. Shreveport's I wrote a show about about Shreveport. I've been going down there for about 10 years. Bam Bam was in Supermax at Florence, Colorado. He was in prison with Larry Hoover, with El Chapo. You know, he was part of a Rico case in Shreveport in this little neighborhood called The Bottoms. Sort of legendary street guy who was extraordinarily violent in prison. Ended up in Supermax. And people don't get out of Supermax.

He was part of the Marshall Project. He was tortured in prison. He was basically blinded there. They, they kept him zip tied for, I believe, 253 days. His skin started to grow over the zip ties because he was basically protesting how other prisoners were being treated. So to get him out of his cell to eat every day, he would just welcome it. They, they basically gas him and beat him every single day. He ended up getting out. Now he's a minister. He's an unbelievable guy. He's dedicating his entire life now to the young community of Shreveport, a city that's just ravaged by gun violence right now. And he's got a podcast. So we're supporting that. We're supporting his merchandise um you know um there's so much in

that community we've done a bunch of uh you know we go to the place we don't have them come to us so so we've done a bunch of shows in in in shreveport um you know i i again it's it's these stories i think are really worth being told you know um my friend, my friend, Alfred Brown, people used to call him goat. He was kind of he was a guy who, who ran this community was kind of, I don't love the word, but he's sort of a gang leader down in Shreveport in Louisiana in this community called the bottoms and got got busted on RICO charges ended up doing almost two decades in prison. Since he's been out, he's lost two of his daughters to prison. Since he's been out, he's lost two of his daughters to gun violence since he's been out. You know, Goat's a kind of guy, they call him Goat. He's the kind

of guy that, you know, back in the day, you know, he could have you taken off the face of the earth like really easily? Now, when this young man killed his daughter, he testified on behalf of him and said, putting another black boy in prison is not going to bring my daughter back. I open up my home to you. I want to open up my church to you. I want to show you that there's a better way. Again, that level of forgiveness, that level of empathy, that level of rehabilitation, the potential that guys like Bam Bam and Goat and Big Don, Reg, these guys down in the bottoms, their commitment to changing this cycle. It's beautiful, man. It's everything I believe in. And I've learned so much from these guys.

And I've also learned so much from Carl Townley, who's the police officer that brought all these guys down. And I've sat the two of them down together. And they have so much respect for each other. Wow. You know? And they're all just really, really good friends of mine. You know? I love them all.

That's so crazy. It is, man. It really is. And what's crazy about it joe honestly is like even like i've had my little brother on i've had all these people on it's i i you know that's not i hate asking people to come on i i that part of is that that part of it is like i i think the worst i i just i hate asking people to come on that. Why? I don't know, man. I think a lot of the folks that I have come on have never been on.

You know, we shoot we shoot it with cameras like, you know, they've never been on camera before. They're talking about things that are highly, highly sensitive. They're they're they're going to places that are pretty dark to a person. Everybody I think it's been it's been a good experience. But that's just a real hard thing for me. I don't like asking that of my friends. It's just you don't like asking because you don't think they would enjoy it or do you think you're putting them on the spot? You're putting them in a, in a compromising position?

No, I don't think I'm putting, I think more the, the, um, the second thing you said that, that I, I know that with a lot of these folks, it's, it's, it's just really you know, and I never want to feel like I'm burdening them. Yeah, or taking something from them or using them in some sort of way. And then again, you've got to go back to that intentionality. You've got to step out of the batter box and you've got to say, okay, what are you doing this for? And then you remind yourself, you know. What is their experience after it's done yeah are they happy about it yeah yeah it's it's been across the board i mean the only people you know we we do it a little bit

differently you know like i i since i've done you know i've been a part of so many interviews as an actor you know you're always you know there's all these forces at play where you got to be like careful about what you say, which I just find just so ridiculous. And so much of the antithesis of being an artist and, and you know so I say to everybody that comes on, Hey man, we're going to, we're going to give you the episode and anything that you want out of will take out, you know? And the only people that have sort of given me a hard time about that is,

is, is actors, you know, obviously. It's after the fact, right? Who's like talking about nothing that's like at all bad at all. But I get it, man. I get it. I try not to judge. Yeah, it's amazing what some people are sensitive about. Yeah.

But it's great, though, that most people, the majority of people are having a good experience from it. So it's coming through what you're trying to accomplish is coming through it's been wild for me you know like you know bo and jerry like start they're like we want to start a fishing show we're like fuck yeah let's go you know what i mean and and uh there's been so there's been so much of that and i i i really do think there is this cathartic not just cathartic but there's just this human need to tell your story. And I think these folks for so long have felt, shit, man, I'm on the front lines of this shit.

Like, I'm on the front lines of this shit. And I got to listen to these assholes spouting off like they know about policing or they know what it's like to come from a community like this or they know what it's like. Like, I know. And, you know, to a person, it been, it's, yeah, it's been, it's been wildly positive for people who are doing it kind of for the first time. And, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I love that. I love that. It's awesome that you're expanding this thing. Like you started it kind of on a whim and now it's kind of growing and expanding almost like it's a force of its own. Yeah. I mean, like it, it, it its own. Yeah. I mean, like, it kind of has to be.

You know, we had George Christie on the other day. He was the longest-serving president of the Hells Angels. He was the president of the Los Angeles chapter, and then he started Ventura. He was the president of the Los Angeles chapter, and then he started Ventura. And, you know, he's got this one-man show that he wants to put on that I just can't wait to see. You know, I don't know. I'm just so, you know, I really do. I don't mean to get all kumbaya on you, man, but I really do believe there's something about art and performance that is you can really take, you know, it's kind of like what I was saying,

you know, on a much smaller level with me and my own bullshit. You know, you can take all this stuff that's held you down that maybe you've caused pain to people, you hurt people, you fucked up, or you disappointed your family, whatever it is, you disappointed yourself, you're an awful member. You can use all that. It's fuel.

Fuck yeah, man. Yeah, it's fuel. can you can use all that fuel fuck yeah yeah it's fuel and you can use it to go reach people the pain that you felt is a real adhesive and you can you can latch on to them and they can see you know shit man i've been there like i i you know i've been there and maybe maybe you can stop them from making that huge mistake themselves maybe yeah and like they're certainly not gonna listen to, they're not going to listen, you know, the Punisher. They're not going to listen to my dumb ass being like, hey, you really shouldn't do, you know, but hey man, here's a guy who just went down 30 years.

He's coming out of Supermax. He's been where you were, you know? I mean, one of the shows we had, we had, you know, a father and son and the father was in that life and now the son is. And they were just talking about like what that felt like, what that felt like to, you know, have the police say, when he was one years old, you're never going to see your son again. And now that this young man, you know, Rick, he's got a, he's got a little baby girl, you know, and she wants, you know, and it's like by talking about it and then maybe potentially

putting that out into your own sort of creative uh forum you know your own creative uh expression you know maybe you know maybe that will maybe that will you know being on mission you know maybe that will do something well it certainly has the potential and it's certain there's a there's certainly a door open for good and a door open to give people a chance. Potentially. Yeah. Well, that's where it all comes from, right? That potentially, that word potentially, that's hope.

That's something. That's a window of opportunity that didn't exist previously. And I think through this intention that you have and through this very charitable view of human beings that you have, you're projecting that. You've got to think of the hundreds of thousands of people that have watched that and taken that in. Then they can incorporate a piece of that in their own life. Inspiration through things like that is so vital. vital. It's so important for people to see how a person can make these charitable decisions and make these, these, you know, views of people in the best possible light and give them an example or give them an opportunity to, to show their best, best possible self. It's so huge, man. It's

like, it's one of the things that's missing in mainstream culture. You know, our culture in terms of the way we learn about information and stories is so polarizing. And it's just looking for bad people. It's looking for evil things or looking for propaganda to pretend that people that are doing evil things are actually good. It's an amazing thing you're doing. It really is. I think it's fucking beautiful i really appreciate you saying that man i mean and look i mean you know not to just throw it back your way man but if you look at you know this in this incredible you know monumental unprecedented thing that you've built i mean i think you know yes know, yes, it's deeply entertaining, but you're also like, I don't know, man.

This desire to get better, to find new avenues, to be curious, to dig in. I mean, that's to me, that's really what this show is. And it's, you know, and for me, it's one of the most hopeful things I think about our culture right now that this now has become such a stall. I mean, it's the biggest thing in the world, you know, and, and, and, and I, I just, you know, it's, it's, it's enormously, it's enormously inspiring and, and, you know, pretty surreal just to be here. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's freaked me out. It's surreal. How do you prepare, man? I really am interested in that. Like how thank you. I appreciate it. It freaks me out. I bet. It's surreal. How do you prepare, man?

I really am interested in that. Depends on the person. Okay. Can you give me some examples? Well, for you, I'm a fan of your work and I'm a fan of what you've done with your podcast.

So I kind of just wanted to talk to you. Okay. So there wasn't much preparation with you. I just was like, this guy's cool as fuck. I want to sit down. Okay. With other people,

like with certain scientists or certain people that are dealing with human rights situations I want to get an understanding of the scope of the problem that they're addressing and what they've been able to do like I Had this guy said Darth Kara on the other day who is exposing cobalt mining in the Congo And it was probably the heaviest podcast I've ever done. Wow. It's so intense because it's such an insane problem. It's such an insane problem that powers all the electronic devices that we use, including electric cars.

And it's all essentially coming from slaves. Wow. At the bottom of the supply chain is the poorest people on earth with no electricity, breathing in toxic fumes because they're banging cobalt out of these mines with hammers while they have babies on their backs. Holy shit. It's so heavy. It's the heaviest podcast I've ever done, by far. Like, you're choking back emotions and tears while I'm listening to him talk. And I'm trying to figure out how do I steer this? What do I, you know, what do I say next? How do I react to this? What do I, you know, what more information can I extract from him? And he's just such a deeply committed person that has spent years of his life researching this and risked his life exposing this.

And I was really aware of this, first of all, through Coltan, which is the first thing that I was aware that they extracted from the Congo, through the stuff that the early days of Vice when they worked on it. And that was when I was first exposed to it, that this is such a huge issue. But I had no idea the scope of it until I started researching this in regards to that podcast. And that's one that was heavy. You know, that's one that requires a lot of thinking about the problem and a lot of like looking at what it's actually like there. And these people that have this is this is what it looks like. This is a cobalt mine in the Congo. Holy shit.

And, you know, the narrative by these electronics companies like Samsung and Apple is that they get everything through ethical sources. Like you can hear the hammers clinking. So with every hammer that's clinking, they're extracting cobalt and also inhaling this poison dust. It's poisoned their environment, poisoned the rivers, poisoned all the land. It's horrific. They live without electricity. They barely make enough money for food. There's no education. There's no hope. And everything is being guarded by commandos who are trying to make sure that the public doesn't ever find this out. Because at the end of this is the most ethical and moral and progressive companies like Apple, which is so crazy hypocrite, like Apple, which is so crazy hypocrite, filled with hypocrisy. It's so disturbing that that's the reality of the world we live in, that if you have one of these, somewhere a slave contributed

to it. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. There's no way around it. It's impossible to get ethically sourced cobalt for these phones. And cobalt is integral to the way the heat management, the way the batteries work. It's fucked, like beyond fucked. And people are trying to hide this information, including the people that are running these enormous corporations. They have to be aware of it. Tim Cook has to know about this. There's no way he doesn't. And these people are reaping in immense profits. How did he get that information? How did he get that footage?

He went there. He got that footage with his own phone. That's his phone that took that footage. He went there and risked his life. And he had people that were sympathetic to the cause that got him in and got him the proper paperwork. And they had guns pointed to his head, roughed up by thugs, thinking this is the end, and luckily got through all of it, but barely. And the stories that he tells about that journey and what it's like and in the passion in his the passion in his message to to try to get this out to people to try to illuminate this problem and to try to shed light on this situation is unprecedented it's not did I mean it's just an incredible person just an amazing person that has that sort of dedication to try to get that out.

And this is a guy that's also worked previously on human trafficking. That was some other things that he exposed in his previous work. So he's been dedicated to trying to shed life on these horrific situations in the world for decades. God bless him. Yeah, God bless him. Wow. Heavy. Yeah.

Heavy. Wow. You know know so that's how i prepare depends entirely on the person with a comedian there's no preparation at all like maybe i'll listen to their podcast with fighters it's pretty easy because i'm a john gigantic fan right and generally when i have someone on i'm very very aware of their their resume and what you've done you know so that's how I do it. I just, it depends on the person. And what about your, uh, what, what about your level of like enjoyment? I mean, are there, does it feel, are there times where it feels like a slog or is there times when, when are there times when you're not into it? Are there times when you're extraordinarily excited about someone? I mean, imagine runs a gamut or do you try to keep it? Is there something that you do to sort of have a steady and healthy approach to it?

Well, hopefully I know enough about the person's ability to communicate that it's not going to be a slog and there's very few slogs, but I've had a few where I took a chance on authors and had them come in and unfortunately they talk the same way they write where, you know, people people write they're very deliberate and slow and sometimes people talk deliberate and slow that's brutal because like as a listen it's very hard to follow along and so i'm trying to like pick up the pay trying to do something aware of my own attention span to try to just juice it up and keep it going and is your is your are you in that moment are you like are you thinking about the audience are you thinking about you in the moment? Like, fuck, this is miserable, bro.

This is miserable. I'm like, if it's miserable for me, it has to be miserable for other people. Because I'm here. I'm looking in this person's eyes. And also, I'm curious about what they're talking about. So I wanted to bring them in here because I have a personal interest in whatever this subject is. Sure. Yeah.

Sure. But most people, it's not. You know, one weird question that people always ask is like, who's your favorite guest or who is a person that you would want to get on the most? And I have the same answer. There's no one. I don't have a favorite guest and I don't have a person I want to get on. Like, I'm happy to talk to you as I'm happy to talk to Tim Dillon or Joey Diaz or whoever

the fuck it is. Tim Dillon or Joey Diaz or whoever the fuck it is. Like, you know, what Muhammad Bilal, comedians, fighters, Neil deGrasse Tyson, whoever it is. I'm happy to talk to people. I like talking to people. It's, I'm very fascinated by human beings. Yeah. I'm fascinated by the wide variety of thought processes

and life experiences and the way people view the world. And through this thing, I've had an, you know, an accidental education, like a deep accidental education on so many different subjects. Because I started it out with my friend Brian. We were just smoking weed on a laptop, you know, just like just being silly and having fun. We thought it'd be a fun thing to do. And then slowly it started gathering momentum and steam

and started getting guests, and then it became what it is now. And a lot of it is accidental, you know, which is real weird. I bet. I bet, man. Someone sent me a video of Times Square today. There's this gigantic LED or LCD, whatever it is, liquid crystal display, huge JRE video that's playing in the middle of Times Square. Wow. It's like fucking 50 feet high or something.

Wow. I'm looking at that thing. I'm like, that is insane. Yeah. That that came out of a laptop in my office fucking around and having comedians come over and we'd do hits out of this volcano vaporizer and get so obliterated we literally didn't even know what we were talking about while we were talking. Right. Just having fun with no pretense and no thought whatsoever that one day this is going to be the biggest media platform in the world. If I ever said that to them back then, they would have fucking laughed in my face. They thought I was an idiot even for doing it.

Like, why are you wasting your time? You go from doing TV shows and stand-up comedy to this stupid shit. What the fuck are you doing? And I didn't have an answer. I don't know what I'm doing. It's fun. Just keep doing it. Yeah, yeah. That's your trip, man. didn't have an answer wow i don't know i didn't like i don't know what i'm doing it's fun just keep doing it yeah yeah such a trip man and and i think about you know just the the enormous amount

of just people talking about you out there and you know like just your idea of like you know posting and ghosting and just like not and just just not being involved in it and just staying out of it. You can't be involved in it. Yeah. And I think that, too. I think, you know, for me, when I have the mask, you know, when I have the armor of going out there as a character, you know, man, I'm like, fucking, I'll go. I'll do anything. Right, right. I will fucking do it. And I always, you know, I'm not interested in anything safe. And I always, you know, I'm not interested in anything safe.

I'm like, you know, my acting style is like I want to create as much danger and I want it to be wild and I want it to be unexpected. And my only way of judging whether we had a good day of work is whether like I completely, you know, created havoc on set and that it was electric and just like, like I, I live for that shit. And so I always want to go as far as, as I can. And the, the, the process, the movies that I've been a part of, or the shows that I've been a part of where I've been able to push that envelope to scare people, scare myself, surprise myself, tap into that wildness. That's how I, that's my only sort of barometer of, of success now, going out there with this, again, with no aspirations of it even going out there, which is very fucking weird. For the first time, getting real, real blowback. Like, real, like, you know. Like, what kind of blowback?

Oh, man. You know, like like so much. You know, I think that, you know, look, I had Shia LaBeouf on, you know, after these allegations came out of him and, you know, being physically and emotionally abusive to, uh, to his, to his girlfriend at the time. And, you know, what was crazy was I, I'd never wanted to have any actors on. That was kind of like my rule just because the, and not because there's just so many podcasts where actors are talking to actors and they're, they're talking about, and I'm actually interested in that shit, but like, I, you know, like nobody needs to hear me talk about that. But Shia, at the time, he was a guy that when we did Fury together, that was such a wild experience. And he was this guy who came in, he pulled his tooth out because he thought his character shouldn't have a tooth. He cut his face. He didn't shower for eight months and at first when

I met him I was like this guy's just fucking he's just loud you know he's just he's he's he's he's wearing his process on his sleeve showing everybody how hard he's working but what I found you know after the eight months of working with him was somebody who and I you know, and this is it's just my own. And he is every bit this thing is every bit as vital to him as it was with me. I found a real partner. I found a real kindred spirit. I found that he was so fucking cute. He was he was willing to risk risk it all for, for, for, for, for this, for the work. And I, I, I walked away with like an enormous amount of respect for him and love for him. I also saw a guy who grew up as a child star, um, a guy who was, um, felt like he needed to bleed

out for his art, felt that he needed to live wildly out on the street and in real life in order to sort of maintain that danger in his work. And I'm coming from a guy, you know, me at this point where I did all that when I didn't have the umbrella of being, you know, a big movie star. And I didn't have that. But now I'm a guy who's absolutely a committed husband and father. That is my life. Like my life is my family. And what I found is the well, the things that I can tap into and my emotional sort of accessibility of

being a dedicated father and husband is so much greater than when I was sort of this wild animal. And I care about people way more than I care about myself. My ego is dead in that sense. So I really wanted to be there for him. And the first thing I remember seeing him and seeing this, like, raw nerve and this unbelievable talent, I would say I think he's the best actor I've ever worked with. And I really wanted to protect him. And I think more than anything else, I really wanted to show him what a real friend was like. I just remember like saying that to myself. I want to show you what a real friend is like.

I feel like you've never really had a real friend. And my friends, the guys that I grew up with, they've been my best friends my whole life. They, you know, they, you know, couldn't do anything without him. I just like, I value that so much. Right. So we had him on the podcast, um, real early on and before this stuff came out and it was right at a time when he had gotten in trouble down in, um, in, in, in Georgia and he went to rehab and he wrote this movie sort of about his own life called honey boy that got nominated for an Oscar and he wrote it and he, he started, he played his dad. It was a very, it's a movie about his life. And I kind of had him on sort of celebrating, you know, where he was at because

for a long time he had taken a lot of shit from this industry. And here he was sort of on top of the world. And I remember at the time, you know, my agents at the time were calling me being like, you think I could just get a phone call with Shia? Like maybe we could like bring him, you know, just he was like, you know. And then these these these chart, you know, this woman said he did these things to him and he was just he was just done, you know, canceled. done, you know, canceled. And, and, um, and I'll say, man, when, when I heard those, I decided when I heard that, that he had done those things, you know, for me, there really is a red line with people that I need to look at with myself and through all the shit that I've seen, all the shit that I've done, man, I, I just, I, I can't be down with you. If you put your hands on a woman, if you put your hands on a woman or a child, dude, I just or a child dude i just like yeah i can't man i can't i can't i can't get over that i can't and i heard this you know

about my friend and you know i was really brokenhearted about it and time went by, I mean, like two years and, you know, I know how much, you know, acting is not only important to him, but like sort of necessary for his survival. And I would reach out on text, you know, checking on him and that, but we hadn't made contact. And then I heard that he was having a baby and he's married. And I reached out to him and I said, hey, man, maybe it's time for you and me to have another talk. And I made a decision with my team and with him. I needed, again, you go back to the intentionality. And I really looked at this this role that you have being a friend and and being a friend is not about turning your back on somebody when they're when they do something that you find fucking deplorable or when you find disgusting your job as a friend is to

make sure they don't do it again and your job now as this guy's being a father is to to step in there and say hey man where are you at? Like, what are you doing? What kind of work are you doing? Where are you? Like, that's what being a friend is. And everybody in my life is like, worst idea in the world. You cannot do that.

You cannot do that. And then, you know, he came on, man. And we spoke, and, you know, I, it was weird because I found so many of the same themes and so many of the same, the heart of what I found in that LWOP community I found in Shia. The level of disgust, the level of work, the level of commitment, the level of shame, the level of time spent,

this fluency with his victim. And I wasn't, I had no interest in exonerating him or saying or saving him in any way. I wanted to check on him and I want to see how he was doing. And I felt that that was an honest thing. And, you know, just the fact that I had him on, I got, you know, an enormous amount of backlash, you know, an enormous amount of for the for really the first time kind of as like a public person, just like kind of hatred. Um, and the fact that I had given somebody who could have, you know, who, who may have done these things that this woman says, you know, that, that really hurt people. And I felt fucking terrible about that, man. Like, like, did you wish you hadn't done it?

No, no. Because after talking to him and then going around and talking to women who have been victims themselves, talking to, you know, this one woman specifically who we were going to have on, but she had health issues and couldn't. her, she had health issues and couldn't, but you know what, what I've found is so many people have reached out who said like, I was in that place. Like I, I, like I was in that place where he was, I was in that place where I was, whether I was abusive or not abusive, I was getting there. And, and the drugs and the alcohol were getting the better of me. And, I mean, really, you know, he was two years sober at the time that I had him on. And I thought really what it was was like a real meditation in shame, you know.

And I thought that, you know, what this woman said to me was, you know, with all – there's so many places and platforms for women to go to their shelters, there's places to go to, to talk about the abuse, to, to, to be there, to help people after the fact, but who is talking to these fucked up young men who are committing the abuse? Who is talking to them and saying, dude, don't do that. Like I've been there. There is another way. This is not the answer. Stop, go get help, change your behavior, work, put in the work. I just, you know, I, I, I, I ultimately felt, you know, that, that, that what he said could have a real positive effect. And I, I believe looking back on it now again, man, it's like, you know, what are you going to do? You, you can weigh the, the, the, the comments

of people who told you, you know, you're the worst guy on earth for doing it. Or you can weigh the comments of the people say, Hey man, I, that thing saved my life. Or, you know what I mean? I can't look at it that way. I look at the intentionality behind what the show was and why I decided to have him on and then why I decided to air it and I stand by it. Well, good for you. And, you know, uncomfortable conversations with people where you think that what they did is horrific. They're still important conversations. It's a part of being a human being, just like having these people that have committed murder and have gone to jail and have been drug runners and criminals and having conversations with them about their journey

and about retribution, about their emerging from this and become a better person. All that is important. And I think, I don't know, man, I don't know how you feel about this, but I often, I'm not sure exactly how to articulate it, but sometimes the tenor or the quality of kind of like the threat or the punishment kind of tells you all you need to know. And let me try to explain what I'm saying. All these people that were saying, you know, definitely don't have him on, definitely don't, you know, the same people that before,

you know, were saying like, hey, just get me a meeting with him, you know, are now saying, stay away from him at all costs, right? But without listening to him or what he sort of has to say. And the same people that were sort of applauding and getting behind the fact that we're giving a voice to folks who have murdered, like you said, who have committed murder, who have gotten to these, you know, have engaged in super serious criminality and talking openly and honestly about it. Yeah. You know, they're sort of applauding that, but they're saying stay away from this. that but they're saying stay away from this yeah and so it was clearly like you know the reason to stay away from it the reason to ignore it you know what would have been what to you know career career safety you know like i can't you know that's not a reason to that you know like if you know what kind of message is that to you to your kids? I had a conversation with my friend Brian Simpson yesterday, who's a stand up comic.

Brilliant guy. And one of the things we talked about was Will Smith slapping Chris Rock. Chris Rock, who's in our world is, you know, he's one of the Mount Rushmore. He's a king. And, you know, his take on it was like that got fuck that guy forever and you know what do you what do you do with that guy like there's a lot of us in the beginning we're like fuck that guy fuck you forever and i'm like no you know now thinking about i'm like that guy has to be forgiven like he clearly has deep remorse for what he's done. And he's also clearly living in a world where he was given nothing but adulation and praise for most of his life. And then all of a sudden he has this one, in many people's eyes, unforgivable moment where he does

something just so fucking stupid, but it's not like he doesn't realize it. He's a human being. You just got to forgive him. You know, and I think the real person who has to forgive him if he wants to is Chris Rock. That's right. You know, and I don't know if Chris will, you know. I haven't even talked to Chris about it.

You know, last time I saw Chris, it didn't come up at all. We talked about how Chris is on a renaissance of his stand-up right now. His stand-up has never been better. That's what I've heard. Everybody that saw him said, like, dude, he's on fire. It's like old school Bring the Pain Chris Rock. And I think it's because he got awoken to what he got into this for in the beginning. He got awoken to what he got into this for in the beginning.

For a lot of comics, being able to host the Oscars is like you're not just in. You're in with the most important crowd possible. You are not just one of the greatest comics of all time, but you're also the guy that can host the Oscars. And it's just like this unachievable honor that such a small handful get to get to that spot and he got to that spot and was humiliated and i think it just reignited what made him a comic in the first place he's an outsider we're all outsiders you want to be an insider? The compromises that come with becoming an insider are not worth it. Like what you're trying to do is you'll be more of an insider by not doing that. You'll be more of a legend by going back to his roots. And that's what he's doing. If he wants to forgive Will Smith, you know, that's totally his choice. I don't know what

his relationship with Will Smith is. I know he had been taunting him and making jokes about him forever. But they're pretty fucking mild jokes. You know, it wasn't that horrible. And my perspective on it is that Will's just a person that was in an impossible-to-understand scenario. person that was in an impossible to understand scenario to be a guy who's a child star who goes from that to become one of the most loved beloved actors in the world blockbuster films everybody loves you to this one thing where everybody fucking hates you everybody thinks you're a piece of shit he's a human you got to him. So what advice would you give Will?

What he's already done. I mean, I think what he's done has been too coordinated and produced. You know, I mean, he gave an apology with multiple camera angles. That's crazy. It just needs to be you and your phone. It might be potentially part of the problem in the first place.

Yeah, set up your phone. Say something into your phone. And, you know, I think he has reached out to Chris, but I don't think Chris is interested in talking to him. You know, he'll be forgiven. It'll take some time. It's not the worst thing that people have done. Right.

The embarrassment and shame that he felt from it is the absolute appropriate response. He's not doubled down and said, fuck that guy, if i see him again it's on site there's none of that stupid shit you know it's imagine imagine if he did that got you bitch coming for you next time motherfucker next time it's my left hand you know what i'm saying i mean you know i i'll tell you it's it's uh you know i was was, the movie that, you know, he got the Oscar for, King Richard, I was in that movie. And I was at every award show, you know.

And, you know, it was weird. I didn't go to the, I decided not to go to that Oscars. My son had a doubleheader in his travel baseball team. And I was like, you know, I'm hanging out with Big Bill today. Good for you. And I was watching it with my other son, Henry, who knows Will, who also was just like, why didn't Mr. Will do that? Oh, no.

And what was crazy is, you know, I'm an enormous fan of Chris Rocks, you know, but I know Will. And, you know, but I know Will, you know, and I know that Will would hate the fact that my son had that feeling. And, you know, you know, for me, you know, working for a whole year with him on that movie and then going on the press tour and the award circuit, like, look, man, like, I've never in my life seen someone who is, like, kinder or more generous or more, like, it was so, it was such an insane moment that revealed such, you know, unhealth, just like, like a lack of health in that moment. That's a great way to put it. It was just like, it's just like, he is not, he is not in the, and so horrible. And, and, you know, look, just like as a man going and putting your hands on another man whose hands are behind their back, just like as a – Not just that, but Chris Rock is this tiny guy.

100%. He's not a threat at all. 100%. And it's like would you – yeah, exactly. Right? So there's like – there's all that. But look, you know, I think it's like, you know, it's odd because it's like you know it's it's it's odd because it's like you know for for me with my friends it's like i i you know i try to judge them not not for their

worst moments for their best and and try to get to the bottom of of what's going on you know but yeah it was um you you know i just remember really palpably feeling that like when my son saw it like fucking will would have hated that like the will i know yeah what would have hated that i'm sure he did i'm sure he does i'm sure he thinks about it every day i'm sure he's like brushing his teeth going fuck like what did i do and you know i think it also was an accumulative event of the public humiliation that he felt going on his wife's show and her talking about her relationships with other men including men that were friends with her son The whole thing was just for him to deal with that publicly Had to be so torturous that I think that he just felt this need to stand up for himself in a very

Poorly thought I'm not thought out at all. You know just impulsive impulsive. Yeah Yeah Horribly impulsive just and also just speaks to the ego like where his ego had gotten him to this place where he thought he could Do that and he thought he could yell keep my wife's name out your fucking mouth in front of the Academy the world the world All the cameras saying it to Chris Rock who made the most innocuous joke all of it is so crazy but the other part about it is to me like as a human that enjoys a little bit of chaos I like when things get fucked up because it lets people know that all this bullshit about tuxedos and clapping and horns playing and the curtains drawn and open and closed.

And it's all bullshit. We're just human beings. And as you said about Chris Rock's comedy now, there is a potential here for both of these men that that could have been, in a way, in a strange way, the most most important potentially best moment in either their artistic life yeah where they could go from that i think like again i go back to me hitting that guy you know a year later july 3rd 2010 i wrote that guy a letter saying that you know the person that i hit that night that wasn't you that was a part of me that i needed to fucking squeeze did you ever meet him again after that i mean i met him met him in court, you know what I mean? Depositions, you know what I mean? Whatever happened with the court case?

Well, you know, I got off in a way criminally, you know, because it was, you know, felony assault, man. And, you know, attempted manslaughter, you know, but there were so many people there that had seen that there was 10 of them and one of me, that it got reduced down to a misdemeanor battery causing serious bodily harm. And, and look, you know, I mean, it's one of those cases of the legal system, you know, really providing, you know, sort of, you know, it's all carrots and sticks, right? And for me, I was just, I was placed on this probation for three years that said, you know, had I be not even arrested, but like, had I been present at a violent crime anytime in those three years, mandatory year in LA County jail,

had I get charged for a crime? It was 10 years, for a violent crime, 10 years. So for a guy, unfortunately, and I'm disgusted to say this about myself, but that was not like that crazy of an event for me at that point in my life, which is so fucking disgusting. But, you know, it meant like change everything, man.

Like, you know, and I think change for people is really tough. I think you gotta, yeah, man, man. Like, you know, and I think change for people is really tough. I think you gotta, you gotta, yeah, man, you gotta rip, you gotta rip out this like whole part of your identity, man. You gotta just like get rid of it. But then you walk around with this fucking hole and everything that made people laugh, everything that, you know, made people that you think like you and then, then that want to be around you and that made you attractive or that made you, you, it's gone. So then you gotta start filling it with other shit you know you gotta start filling it with good shit you know and and did he

respond to your letter probably has a headache well what ended up happening man it was crazy she ended up suing you know I had just, probably gonna get in so much trouble for this, but I had just done Night at the Museum 2. I played like Al Capone in Night at the Museum 2, like, you know, and the posters were like everywhere around LA. And I was one of the, so I was on the poster. So my face was everywhere. So he saw that. And he was like, oh, I'm so he sued me for $2 million. And I had like no money back then. And so, you know, when I was starting a family, you know, with my wife, you know, I, I had to figure out, you know, I had these legal fees and these deposits. It was all about the, the civil, the civil case. Um, he had this big lawyer who's just like, you know, come to the boxing gym that I train in, like, you know, you know, following me around, you know, putting me on camera and these depositions, you know, coming to the boxing gym that I train in, like, you know, you know, following me around, you know, putting me on camera in these depositions, you know, saying he's going to come into my house and, and, and grab my, my, my pregnant wife and, and, and, and

depose her, you know, serve her, you know, trying to get a rise out of me. It was the biggest acting performance of my life. I've, you know, I wanted to, you know, reach across the table and, you know, choke this guy. And I was like, well, why would you do that, sir? Like my wife's done nothing to, you know, but, uh, you know, I don't know, but even, even, even that man, like, you know, there was so much shame and so much disgust for the way that I was living my life. Like I, you know, man, I got, I got away scot-free and, and, you know, ended up having to, you know, spend a ton of money that I didn't have and really set us back as we were trying to start a family. But, again, I really, that moment, weirdly, even if it was as low as I kind of felt like I had ever been, I think in a lot of ways really saved my life. Those moments are critical.

And there's ways you can respond to those moments. And you responded in the best possible way, I think. And, you know, life is chaos. There's a lot going on. And if you encounter something as bad as what you encountered, all the things that you described and the way you described it, I probably would have done the exact same thing today unfortunately and i'm like what do you do like when you're confronted by and that part of you is triggered and you realize that this piece

of shit is pushing you from the back and you can just flatline them it's very difficult to not do that yeah i think it takes i mean i think know, for me, it was like really doing a lot of work, man. Like really doing, you know, I had like court ordered anger management. I think, you know, other times where I had court ordered stuff in my life, I was like, I was like, you know, court ordered, you know, drug rehab, like it just get high as fuck and go in there. You know what I mean? Like I want to trip ass and go to, you know what I mean? Go see if I can like, you know, pick up a girl in here, you know, like just like a total, total asshole. But, but, I'm going to trip acid and go to, you know what I mean? Go see if I can, like, you know, pick up a girl in here. You know, like, just like a total, total asshole.

But, you know, for me, you know, I mean, it sounds crazy. But, I mean, just for people out there that might be dealing with that kind of stuff, like, you know, keeping an anger journal. Like, figuring out what pisses you off. Like, figuring out, like, how long it pisses you off. Figuring out what triggers you. Figuring out what it makes you think you really want to do to be like really working on that shit. You know, I don't know, man. And, and look, I mean, don't get me wrong. Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm still me. And I know, I know exactly, you know, it's like, it's my kids and my wife, man,

just as long as you, you know, but'm not i'm not gonna get into any you know you can't you know nothing's gonna make me mad i'm and i'm i'm filled with i'm i'm filled with gratitude well you're on the right journey you know you uh you had a pivotal moment of your life and you self-corrected it's huge it's huge for anyone to hear that too because that's possible and you don't think it's possible when you're in the depths of it. When you're in the depths of something that's awful, you just feel like this is my new reality. But oftentimes through that new reality, that's where the growth comes and that's where the change comes. And that's where you are an accumulation of your life experiences and how you respond to those experiences.

And sometimes profound things can cause profound change. And in your case, for the better. That's right. That's right. And there's nothing more powerful than changing. And, you know, I'd like completely support and believe in anyone's ability to do that. completely support and believe in any anyone's ability to do that. I think the more we write people off and we use these unbelievably insignificant, you know,

sort of means to, to, to, to, to, to, to not be forgiving or to put people in these boxes. It's a huge mistake,

man. It's a huge mistake for the person that's doing that too. For sure. Cause they have this unflexible, uncharitable view of people forever. Like, what if that comes around on you, man? You don't want that. You don't want that for you, and you don't want that for other people.

Again, we're all just human beings. But we lose sight of that because these kind of conversations where people get to fully express all the emotions and thoughts behind that, they're not that common. It's crazy. They're very recent in fact in in humanity we really haven't had like enormous platforms where people can express themselves the way you just did um it and it can affect so many people in a positive way it's uh that's one of the beautiful things about what you're doing, what you're doing with your show,

is that you're giving a voice to these thoughts and circumstances and situations and people that it's not easy to hear that voice. That voice is not amplified. It's not on mainstream media. It's not in newspapers. And even if it is, you're not going to read it. It's just you put same kind of positive change of direction that you did for yourself, that they can do it for themselves too. And they can realize that it's, you know, you look at a person,

and we always like to look at a person as this static thing. And it's one thing that I really came to grips with becoming a father is that I used to think of people as like, oh, this is Bob. He's 40. He's a piece of shit. Now I think, oh, that was a baby. That was a baby. And he either wasn't loved or was abused or was in a terrible situation. And through bad life choices and bad circumstances surrounded by the worst

people. One event leads into the other. The momentum carries him into a terrible place. And now here, Bob finds himself at 40 where people think he's a piece of shit. And I'm sure he's self-defined by that too, because of other people's opinions. So true. And I mean, that perspective that, you know, the fatherhood thing, that just, that just changes everything. Changes everything. There's a monumental shift. First of all, seeing life that didn't exist before and realizing that it came about through you and your wife is so strange.

It's so psychedelic because it's like, you know, people, oh, parenting changes you. You say that to someone who doesn't have kids. They really have no fucking idea what you're talking about. But I've seen it in so many of my friends that they have children and all of a sudden there's this softening of who they are and this understanding of what's really important. You know, and that what's really, it's so cliche, but love. Love is what's really important. so cliche, but love, love is what's really important. Friendship, love, and trying to get over your own bullshit and figure out life for you. What, what is the best path for you? And what are the steps that you have to do every fucking day to stay on that good path? Cause

it's so easy to make change for a little while and then slide right back into your old bullshit. That's right. That's right. It's gotta be, but, and nothing will, nothing will provide that vitality for you and how, how utterly and absolutely essential it is in having kids. Yeah. And I, and I think for me, I mean, I even look, you know, I have to spend so much time on the road and it's, it's a, you know, it's a, I hate that. I hate that. But, you know, while I'm gone, you know, the reason why, you know, I'm not like fucking eating Chinese food and like at the bar is because, you know, I'm away from my kids and I'm putting my kid's name on my work.

So it's like, I'm going to be committed to whatever I have to do for that. Like that, that really fucking matters to me. Like, I really want them to look back and say, you know, dad, dad put it all in there. You know? I mean, like, that's, that's funny. You know, one of those guys from Shreveport, Rich Wilson, you know, he, he, he told me, like, right when I was having my second kid, you know, guy grew up on the streets, you know, and, and, you know, really seen an unbelievable amount.

You know, I asked him, you know, what's the, you know, what advice would you give me, you know, being a father, he was just like, all that shit that you're doing that, you know, you shouldn't be doing, just stop doing that. I was like, I'm like, but you know what I mean? You know, the exaggerating, the, the, the, the, whatever it is, the, the, the, the, the, the flimsiness, the, you know, just, you know, you really want these qualities. You really want to nurture these qualities in your children just cut them the fuck out with you you know and yeah I think there's really something to that

I think so too I think this is a good way to end this thank you John really appreciate it this is everything I thought it was going to be I appreciate you having me Joe it's a real honor tell everybody how they can watch your show how they can consume it oh the, the podcast? Yeah. It's Real Ones with Jon Bernthal, Spotify.

There it is. Thanks, man, putting it up there because I don't want to look at the picture. It's so bad. Look at that mustache. My kids used to come over when I had that mustache. I had that for all of COVID. They would just rip the shit out of that mustache. So, yeah, on Spotify and Apple Podcast, and on YouTube and stuff like that.

Beautiful. Thanks, man. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. Bye, everybody. Appreciate you too.