The Joe Rogan Experience - #1955 - Cliff Gray

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Cliff Gray is a former financial trader turned wilderness outfitter, hunting guide and YouTuber. https://pursuitwithcliff.com/

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Hello, Chris. What's up, man? Nice to meet you in person. You too. We've been chatting back and forth online for quite a while now. Yeah, man.

You know, it's funny, I was looking at it, I think it's been like five or six years since our first interaction. How did you get involved being a hunting guide? What's your path to that? Yeah, man. So I guess it's a long story. You know, I grew up in a rural area. My dad was a cattle rancher, and then he did a little outfitting when I was a kid. And then, well, it's kind of a long story, man, because I thought this was normal when I was a kid.

But when my dad was an adult, he was a cattle rancher, and then he went back to vet school. And so he actually left outfitting and cattle ranching and pursued that. And that was when he was like in his 40s, you know. And so that was my first exposure to you know being an outfitter or guiding was through my father and then honestly man like growing up I hunted all the time I've been I've been obsessed with you know hunting since I was 10 12 years old and then I went and kind of did a more traditional I I guess, lifestyle. I went to school, went to undergrad, went to business school, and then I worked in finance for a few years.

And we can get deep into why that didn't last. Maybe you can help us explain why the banks are failing right now. I don't know, man. It's been so long since I've been in that world. What a different contrast, though. The contrast between that world and the world that you live in now. Dude, it's crazy to think about because I still know people that are finance guys. My brother's a finance guy. Does he live in hell? He can't be happy. Yeah, yeah. He's doing all right because he doesn't... All the investment strategies that he's doing for the most part are like hedge type of strategies.

But he's doing okay. But, yeah, it's a different world, man. It's definitely a different world. Yeah. Yeah. And I always look back on my path and I think like, well, did I choose the right thing? I don't know, but I'm happy. So I guess.

If you're happy, you chose the right thing. But no one, there's no right thing. There's just like life, life and decisions. This idea that you're going to like, oh, I wish I could do it differently. Well, you definitely can't. So don't wish that. There's no way you can do it differently. Right.

Unless you have a fucking time machine. And even if you have a time machine, you will already have the knowledge of what happens if you do it wrong. So if you go back and try to do it right, who knows how you're going to fuck that up. Yeah, sure. Like, it's not life. Imagine living your life knowing what's going to happen if you do it certain ways. That would be a terrible way to live. Like, you would never be in the moment

You would be constantly filled with this anxiety of making sure that you don't do the thing that you have already done Right so that you could live your life in a different way I mean I can imagine if like you know you run a red light and crash into a car and go oh my god How could I stop that from happening again? I have to make sure I don't do that again. Sure. Things like that. Yeah.

That makes sense. Yeah. But, like, a whole life path? Yeah, yeah. Like, change your whole life? Yeah. I wish I did it a different way. Well, you definitely didn't, so keep going.

Right. Well, and, man, life's so path-dependent, you know, and that you get, you know, you choose certain things, and there's probably, probably like a million different ways it could go. And, you know, that was like for me, there's a point in my life when I was doing finance. I was I was a trader when I was a young guy. And, you know, there's just kind of a moment where I'm like, man, do I I just want to do something else. And then you start down that path and it just it leads you in wild places man yeah well literally for you yeah yeah for sure dude look at me right here where i'm at right now like

you would never i would have never imagined this in the my wildest dreams that's funny but i meant wild places like the wild like oh yeah yeah that too both things both things are kind of wild yeah yeah yeah so what did how did you make this choice to like get off the path because for a lot of Yeah, yeah. Both things are kind of wild. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For sure. So how did you make this choice to get off the path? Because for a lot of people, I think one of the problems with the path is you get married, you get a house, you have kids, you have responsibilities, and then you're stuck because you really can't change careers because you have so many dependents. There's so many people depending upon you.

You have so many dependents. There's so many people depending upon you. You have so many responsibilities. You have to kind of just suck it up and keep doing this thing that you don't enjoy for your family. Yeah, so to answer that question, man, I think I have to be a little humble about it, Joe, because I came from a family, including my wife. When I met my wife, man, I was a guy that was well-educated and looked like a guy that was going to be on like a traditional path to, you know, to, you know,

to great success as a finance guy. And that's when I met my wife. And then I like, I tricked her, man, because I switched it up on her, you know, but she stayed with me the whole time. And so I got to, I got to give her that, but also my family too, man. Like you can imagine her, you know, but she stayed with me the whole time. And so I got to give her that. But also my family too, man. Like you can imagine like, you know, my parents, you know, wanted me to get a great education. I mean, my family, man, like basically lived the American dream. Like none of them, they didn't grow up wealthy,

you know, nor did I, but they kept me comfortable. And then, you know, they got great success and they wanted they wanted or they got you know they got success through hard work and they wanted to see me you know have a path of like you know go go to Wall Street go be an attorney go do something like that because that seemed like the easy path I think in their mind and seemed to make sense and they were giving me that opportunity but when I decided not to do that man not one time have my parents or my brothers for that part said like dude you're doing you're being an idiot you know what I mean like when I told them like hey I'm gonna buy so essentially I

bought an outfitting business that had been you know pretty much run into the dirt you know and it was just it was just federal permitting where I could expand into a bigger you know, pretty much run into the dirt, you know, and it was just, it was just federal permitting where I could expand into a bigger, you know, guiding business in Colorado. When I told them I was going to do that, like I was quitting my job at the time and I was working, I had transitioned working for a wealthy family who treated me awesome. But when I said, hey, man, I'm going to go be an outfitter, my parents were like, I mean, my dad was like, sounds awesome. But, um, when I said, Hey man, I'm going to, I'm going to go be an outfitter. My parents were like, I mean, my, my dad was like, sounds awesome. You know, my brother was like, sounds awesome. I can't, and I don't think that everybody grows up in a family that's that supportive of it. So I don't want to say that like, I, you know, did it all. Like, I'm just a

guy that just said, Hey, I'm going to do something cool and independent. It was what I wanted to do. And I had support, man. So I can't- Well, that's very fortunate. Yeah, yeah. That's very fortunate. So if you're in the middle of this world, this financial world, how did you make that transition? What were the steps involved in making the transition? Did you just immediately up and quit and just figure out how to get a job as an outfitter or were you already doing some outfitting? Yeah. So, so I've been in, I mean, all through my childhood and, you know, and then even when I was

an undergrad in school, I hunted all the time and I had done a bunch of guiding and I was exposed to the other thing for my type of outfitting and guiding, I had been exposed to livestock and horses and mules my whole life. And that's a big part of like wilderness outfitting is you got to be familiar with, you know, how to pack mules, how to pack horses, how to ride horses, you know, up in the mountains. Cause that's a huge proportion of what I, what I did just to get into remote areas. So, you know, not, not to dive like into the depth of my childhood, but I was exposed to that, you know, the first 20 years of my life where, you know, I had that skillset. So that's, that's the first part of it. And then, you know, how I actually mechanically did it. I mean, so the, just to give you some context, me and my brother start when I

was young at a business school, me and my brother started a financial company and it changed, changed in a bunch of different ways and he still operates it. But when I was, I think I want to say like 22, 23, I started working for our biggest client and he was a phenomenal guy and I was doing more like family wealth management for him and literally Joe I was I was just kind of struggling day to day with being I always wanted to be in the outdoors and I wanted to go do something else and I literally just walked into his office and I was like Bob like I love I love you man but I gotta I gotta go like I gotta go do something else and I kind of had a plan

to get, to go back to Colorado. I was born in the area, you know, where, where I did most of my outfitting and guiding. And it was funny cause he looked at me and he kinda, he kinda laughed cause I think he knew it was coming. Like he, he knew, he, he, uh, I mean, he came from a different world. Like he'd grown up, grown up, you know, grown up in, you know, um, doing business deals and all that. And I grew up from somewhere else. I think that's why he kind of enjoyed having me around. Cause we would talk about, you know, our, you know, different backgrounds and stuff, but he was just like, well, the first thing he said is like, Cliff, I'm just going to ask you one time, man, can I give you more money? I'm like, Bob, we shouldn't even talk about it, man. He's like, all right, dude, go for it.

I'm like Bob we shouldn't talk about it man he's like all right dude go for it well that's great so literally like a week later me me and my wife we moved to Colorado and I had a supportive wife yeah dude that's awesome yeah I she's been epic the the whole the whole way so how did you go about starting and getting clients so if you're starting an outfitting business you're a young guy you're leaving the financial sector yeah you're going and starting and getting clients? So if you're starting an outfitting business, you're a young guy, you're leaving the financial sector. Yeah. And you're going and starting and getting clients. How do you go about making that happen?

Yeah. So part of how that process worked for me is when I got to Colorado, I started doing some packing and guiding. This is after I worked in finance. So I took like, you know, kind of a, most people would say a step back in my career, you know? So one day I was like looking at financial models and trading and that sort of thing. And then three weeks later, I was like helping guys pack, you know, elk out of the wilderness on mules, that sort of thing. So I started getting exposed to it that way again. And then what I did was I started just looking for a business to buy.

And so when you're operating in the wilderness areas, you've got to have federal permitting. So I got all that figured out. I bought a business. And then it's just like hand-to-hand combat, man. Like you, I mean, the first year that I was guiding and outfitting, I think I had, you know, maybe like a dozen clients or something like that. The last year that, that I, that I outfitted, I had like north of 200 clients, you know? So it's just, it's just hand-to-hand combat. And then, then you know as you learn an area and we can get into the nitty-gritty details of it but these wilderness areas there's no roads in them man so you know

you're talking about hundreds of thousands of acres and you're talking about elk that are pretty heavily pressured i mean it takes years just the grind of like learning the area and so over time just like just you know step by step, man. And then I started to get good guides working for me over the years. And we, you know, we all just got where we learned the area, you know, along the way. And then, I mean, the reality is the last three or four years, it was never, there's never a problem booking people. We were always booked, you know, and that's's how that world that's how that world is in a lot of ways like

once you get established and you keep people happy and it's like sort of word of mouth yeah you stay booked hey i went with cliff it was great yeah he knows how to get there yeah what you do is fascinating to me because it's such a it's one of the more interesting kinds of hunting where you go really deep in with animals. You bring in mules or horses and you go very, very deep in to find these animals. And I think most people on the outside that think about hunting, they don't really understand how grueling it is, how unbelievably difficult it is to get, you know, 15, 20 miles in. Yeah. And then if you do shoot an animal, to get that animal out is an unbelievable struggle.

Yeah. And if you're talking about public land, it's really one of the best ways to find elk or to find really good elk. would have been the large, they, they, they say the White River elk herd is the largest elk herd in the, in the, in the world, right? So you have that perception that, oh, okay, well, you go there, you go into the flat tops or you go into the surrounding forest, you know, forest service property, and you just put your backpack on, get off the road and there's going to be elk everywhere. Well, I mean, it's a, it's a ton of of habitat and the thing about a lot of that country is all the habitat's good you know you can go other places and they've got elk but you you know the only 10 of the actual habitat is going to hold elk right well the flat tops or you know

these big chunks of space in colorado i mean, it's all good elk habitat. You know, until you get massive amount of snow that limits the feed for elk, I mean, elk could be everywhere. So what I'm getting to is they get crazy dispersed. And the only way to get into a lot of these areas is either backpacking, you know, on your foot hiking, on your feet hiking, or, you know, you've got to pack in with

horses and mules. Do you guys go in and set up a wall tent? Yeah. And then are you there for weeks or months at a time? Like, how do you do it? Yeah. So if we're talking, so all the, if we're talking elk, the elk is a species, almost all of that was out of wall tent camps. And we pack those in. Now, I did a fair amount of sheep and goat guiding too. Most of that was out of wall tent camps, and we packed those in. Now, I did a fair amount of sheep and goat guiding too. Most of that we did out of backpacks. Just because a lot of the habitat that mountain goats and sheep live in, it's not really conducive to packing with horses just because you end up getting above timberline,

and there's just some logistical reason a lot of times it's better to backpack on them um but on elk it's almost always you're so you're packing your camp with horses and mules and then you're coming back in sometimes you'll hunt off foot you know if if if the camp's in a in a situation where you can cover ground on foot and hunt then you'll do it that way uh but a lot of times you'll actually bring horses back in and hunt a horse back too. And that's like a whole – people don't – I mean, you know, taking care of horses, you know, if you've got 15 horses and mules in camp, like, you know, 12 miles back in the wilderness, like it's – you know, it feels like going back in time, man.

Yeah. You know? I mean, that's why – that's why – I why i mean honestly joe by the time i sold so i sold uh my main business like 18 months ago by the time i sold it the majority of my crew was amish really yeah amish yeah how did you find these guys do they just so i because they don't use electricity right so like yeah yeah so we could we can get them online can you get them online do they cheat so yeah yeah so dude i i got some amish buddies that i i love man and i don't so i don't i don't like uh like mark if you're listening man and you probably shouldn't be listening because

you're amish but uh but no so the answer to your question man, it just depends on what church they're from and the rules that they have established and what they're doing. So if it's for business, a lot of them can use email. They can use a cell phone. Yeah. Oh, what a hack. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Then you're not Amish.

That's the whole thing. You can't use fucking email. Well, here's the deal. So, yeah, so they, you know, I'm not an expert at them, but I became very good friends with some of them. You know, because, I mean, I had some of them work for me for four or five years. And, man, there's some things about them that are absolutely amazing. You know what I mean?

Hardworking people. Hardworking is an understatement man And the other thing that's wild about him is I had a lot of very young Amish guys come work for me And and we could get into the details of that technically they hadn't like committed to the Amish Church So they weren't technically Amish yet. Oh, was it the rump Springer thing? Yeah, they would be in that in that process people don people who don't know, they have like a time period of indefinite time period where they're allowed to just run around and party

and do drugs and sleep around. And then they have to come back to the church if they want to. Right. And when they came out to my place, they didn't do any of that stuff other than work. You know, but... But anyways, they would come out and what I noticed, man,

is if you take an 18 year old Amish guy and you're just doing stuff around like ranch, cause we, you know, we were outfitting and guiding a lot of time, but we also had to manage the livestock and we had kind of a ranch that we had to take care of. Those guys at 18, they know a ton because they already been they've already been working for seven years you know i mean they know how to frame a door you know they you know they they could show up to my place joe and like they're they're wearing sandals and shorts and you're thinking like this guy's never been around livestock and you bet hey man go grab that mule and saddle it every single one of them knew how to do it because they grow up, they grow up catching horses and, you know,

putting them on a buggy every day, you know? So it's pretty, it's just, it's just wild that they learn all these skillsets that, you know, really early on. So in some ways, like I don't, you know, from an education standpoint, none of them had a hard time communicating with me. Or, you know, we always could get through all that. You know, maybe they didn't have as good a spelling or they didn't have as good like algebra skills or something because they missed out on some of that education maybe. But I can tell you from a work ethic and like a hands-on skill set, they're amazing, man. Yeah, that's an education too. a hands-on skill set they're amazing man yeah that's an education too it's it's interesting because we only want to think about education in terms of like things you can use in the corporate

world or right you can use in the business world but the reality of education is you're learning things and they learn so many things i'm sure that the average person who works in an office is never going to understand right take an average guy who works over at google and say hey man go go put a saddle on that mule yeah and they're like what the fuck are you talking about right yeah that's a learned skill and yeah it's a learned skill that has a diminished value in our world but in your world in the world of outfitters is a very high value yeah yeah yeah yes and the thing about their education, too, it's like the homeschooling, I'm sure it varies wildly.

Yeah, and that's why I don't mean to make a judgment on them. I'm sure some of them are really good at homeschooling their kids, and some of them, it's just like regular homeschooling. I've met some homeschooled kids that are phenomenal. They're really interesting kids, but the parents did a great job of giving them a very nuanced education and then also committing them to activities. So they interacted with a lot of kids on a regular basis. They just didn't go to school during the day with kids.

And it's like if you have that kind of time and that kind of commitment and you, you know, maybe you're just not very happy with a regular school system. People used to think that it was a bad idea to homeschool your kids, but during COVID, I think a lot of people kind of opened their eyes. First of all, A, how difficult it is, but also that there's a value to being there while your children are learning things. So you can kind of communicate with them and go through, especially if you have an expertise in something. Like if, like I, my, my youngest daughters used to do, uh, martial arts and it was kind of like a mixed martial arts class. And, uh, I would go with them to mix martial arts class and sit on the sideline. And then a couple of times some stuff came up and I said to the

instructor, I said, actually shouldn't really do it that way. Cause like they weren't, you know, as belt in jiu-jitsu, I'm like, you're actually going to get your back taken if you teach people this path. Right. This is a very vulnerable path. Let me show you the difference. And so I'd go on the mat with them and show them the difference. The next thing I know, I'm doing it with my daughter, and I'm having her do it, and I'm working with little kids. It was really exciting. It's fun to be able to teach your kids something.

And they love that you know something that they can learn. Oh, yeah. It was really exciting. It's fun to be able to teach your kids something. And they love that you know something that they can learn. And it's like, it gives them pride. So like these people that are learning from their families and from their community, it's a completely different way of life, but it's probably a more healthy way of life than the average person experiences just going to a regular mundane sort of, you know, very regimented traditional school system. Yeah. No, I think I think that's for sure the case. But the electricity thing is ridiculous. Well, you know, it's it's funny. I'll tell you about a conversation I had. I had with one guy that I consider a pretty good friend. And I'll be him like well dude like what it seems like so it seems like like where do you

where do you stop the technology where do you start and he actually had a rational rational explanation he said look man like we make these judgments and i think a big part of it is we're just trying to judge like we we know the value of having a certain pace of life and these technology judgments are based on that we want to be able to still you know succeed feed our families because they still got to deal with like the realities of you know they got to buy land to have their farms all that stuff but he's like look it's all about pace of life for us so if we look at a technology and it's going to change that dynamic, then certain churches may choose not to do that. So I'm with you, man.

There's odd things that they do. But I kind of get that explanation too. I kind of get it. But it's just weird that they have that electricity loophole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The email loophole. What does it say? Word processor.

loophole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does it say? Word processor. A new word processor with more memory and more speed made specifically for the plain people. By the plain people. Is that what they used to call themselves? I don't know. It comes up in a few advertisements for this. It's called the Classic

Series. But is it the advertising is for Amish? Because it's calling the plain people. I mean, it's being sold in rural Pennsylvania. Yeah, look at that. Look for Jake or Jonas. Shippensburg, Pennsylvania. Hold on.

So what is it here? It's a word processor, but it's non-electrical. Oh, this one does. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a... But the last one, it looked like it was just... It was. It looked like...

What is that? I mean, what is powering that fucking thing? It's got USB, floppy. What? No modem, no phone port, no internet. Nothing fancy. Not just a locked computer. No modem, no phone port, no internet connection,

no outside programs, no sound, no photographs, no games and no gimmicks. Nothing fancy. Just a workhorse for your business. High-end word processing, typing tutor, auto games, and no gimmicks. Nothing fancy. Just a workhorse for your business. High-end word processing. Typing tutor. Auto spell check. Auto word fail.

What year is this from? 2008, I think. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. They have a lot of this kind of stuff where they kind of work around. Like, kind of work around the limitations that they're... That's funny. Look at the fucking horse and buggy on the street there, Jamie.

That shit is so annoying. If you're ever in rural Pennsylvania and you get stuck behind one of those guys, like, oh, Christ. The article I found this in said that their cell phone usage, though, is kind of common. Yeah. That's a fucking cheating move. I think that's— How dare you. For business in particular, man, I think that's pretty much standard now.

Well, I guess they'd have to have a phone line. If you're going to have a phone line, why wouldn't you have an internet line? Yeah. Or a cell phone line, rather. Yeah, my parents used to live in Harrisburg. Oh, okay. I used to see those folks. Yeah.

When you drive to them. You also drive through the fucking areas the areas where they raise cattle. It was the worst smell. Oh, where the Amish were. It only was Amish, no. That didn't have anything to do with Amish. That was just cattle raising. Okay.

I think that was like, I don't know whether it was factory farming, what kind of farming. It might have been like, I know they feed a lot of silage. You know, like, you know, like processed feed that's been basically fermenting. And that's what that smells a lot of the time. Oh, really?

Yeah. That makes sense because it wouldn't be the cow itself. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what silage smells like? No, I don't. So a lot of times when you're driving, you'll see like tarps. There'll be cattle there. You see it by dairies a lot of times when you're driving, you'll see like tarps. There'll be cattle there. You see it by dairies a lot of time. There'll be cattle there, and then you'll see like these tarps laying out.

And what that is is they've got hay underneath it, and they ferment it. And it's silage, and then they feed it to the cattle. Is the fermenting on purpose to give them more probiotics? Yeah, I think so. I'm not an expert on it, Joe, but I think part of it is it just makes it more palatable so they can, I think, just consume enough calories. Oh, interesting.

And then I'm sure there's some nutritional aspect to it too. I just don't know the details of it. That makes sense. That's why it would stink so bad because I thought it was just death. Yeah, yeah. Because in the time when I was driving to see my folks, sense that it's that's why it would stink so bad because i thought it was just death yeah yeah in the time when i was driving to to see my folks i think it was the 90s pretty sure it was the 90s so like i wasn't that hip to that stuff anyway i just thought it was just a stinky

dead area sure where the they've raised cows yeah yeah no i hear you but christ it stunk i couldn't imagine living there because the problem with uh olfactory senses is you only detect changes in smells. Oh, yeah. So you just get accustomed to your neighborhood stinking. Yeah, yeah. Which is really weird. It's hilarious you say that because I got so used to the smell of horse shit when I was outfitting. Like, you get so used to it, you don't even know it's around, man.

Right. But, you know, if you're in a wall tent camp and you're hunting elk for like seven or eight days and it's like half snowing or it's half snow and then it melts. So it's like muddy. You got all these horses tied up. I mean, horse shit's everywhere, man. It's in every lead rope. It's in everything.

And you don't realize, you know, you're out there, you know, out there feeding the horses in the dark and you go into the cook tent and, you know, you start eating and you don't realize you're out there feeding the horses in the dark. And you go into the cook tent. And you start eating and you got horse shit on your hands. You just get used to the smell. Well, horse shit's not a scary shit. It's not really. Yeah, I hear you. It's like it's processed hay.

Yeah, yeah. It's just hay that's biologically sort of gone through the system of the horse. It's notologically, you know, it's sort of gone through the system of the horse. It's not like dog shit. Dude, isn't that funny? Because all like predator shit is kind of like off-putting. Yeah, yeah. Because it's rotten meat. Yeah, dude.

Yeah. You see like lion shit or, you know, bear shit. Like when you see deer shit, you pick deer shit up. Yeah, no big deal. It's like little balls. Yeah, yeah. It's nothing. Yeah, like my little boy, if he picks up an elk turd or whatever, it's like, oh, like, Wyatt, that's an elk turd.

But, man, if he tried to pick up, like, a bear shit or something, I'd be like, ah. Right. We'd also worry about parasites. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dude, I think that might be, I mean, don't you think that's maybe why we're so prone to not, like, be a little, like, off-putting, off-put by it more? Perhaps, right? The smell.

Because it's interesting how animals approach the smell like i have a golden retriever and when he find i have a fox that lives in my neighborhood and he comes into my yard it's pretty cool i got a video of him barking barking in my yard he's such a weird animal they have such a weird noise um anyway shit's in my yard and my dog finds his shit and rolls in it every time like for him it's fucking perfume so he gets it like all over his neck and stuff like obviously it's not off-putting for him

I think for him I don't know what it is that dogs are doing if they're disguising their smell with the shit like I don't know what they're doing they do the same thing with dead stuff I have no idea, I don't know what they're doing. They do the same thing with dead stuff. Yeah, what are they doing? I have no idea, man.

I don't know why that is. It's weird because they all do it. And when they do it, you notice they're gleeful when they do it. Oh, yeah. Like, wah, wah, wah. Loving it. Yeah, yeah. He comes in with just shit smeared all over his neck.

I'm like, dude. Yeah, yeah. So obviously it's not off-putting for them, but humans don't roll around in it. No, yeah. Not the average. Yeah, yeah. That's an enigma, yeah. So obviously it's not off-putting for them, but humans don't roll around in it. No, yeah. Not the average. Yeah, yeah. That's an enigma, man.

You'll have to get an expert on in that regard. I don't even know how they'd figure it out. There's no exact known cause of this. Wolves do it, too. Oh, interesting. I think wolves do it to disguise themselves from prey, but that's the best answer I found. Well, then it makes sense that dogs do it because dogs are just bitch-ass wolves. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. You know, they're trying to get their scent covered or something. Yeah, so if an animal's downwind, it's just like, I smell shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like, oh my God, I smell a wolf. Yeah, yeah, sure. It's not like, oh, my God, I smell a wolf. Yeah, yeah, sure. It would overwhelm the smell.

Yeah. Well, what do you think about their bringing wolves to Colorado? Do you have an opinion on that? Yeah, man. I got lots of opinions about it. I mean, so it's going to happen for sure, you know. Oh, man, we could dive deep into this one. It's an interesting thing.

Yeah, so. I feel like as a person who has spent some time in the woods, not nearly as much as you, but I've spent enough time that I understand what the woods are. I understand what the wild is. And I don't think most people do. I think people have a very goofy idea of what the wild is right like animals living in a way that they've lived for thousands of years and you just happen to be there and if you weren't there it would take place exactly as you witness it right without you being there it's like

you have almost no influence on it they are they are wild they are living in the woods and wolves are dominant intelligent calculating predators yeah that they eradicated from the west for a reason yeah yeah man so i think you hit on a bunch of things that would like bring me back to my opinion on it and that's that a lot of this stuff when you when so i know they they've basically described two different areas in colorado where they're going to put the two or the uh the two first sets of transplants and one of them is like right in where you're not i mean i rode that country with a horse like all over the place in the circle of where they're going to put those wolves is right there so i of where they're going to put those wolves is right there. So I know where they're going to put those, you know, one of the spots.

I know the spot intimately. I know the wildlife there intimately. How many wolves are they going to put in? So my understanding is off the bat, the first year, and I believe their goal is by December of this year, believe their goal is by December of this year, it's going to be like between 15 and 30, I believe is the first bunch. And they're going to have them in two different spots. But in that, you know, in that Vail corridor, you know, up to the flat tops in there, you know, so they're probably going to put 15 to 20 wolves in there. The thing, the thing that you hit on Joe, that I think kind of forms my opinion is, I mean, these areas, when you go in them, man, they seem so wild, right? Like, you know, I could, the flat tops,

I could get on a horse and I could ride for 15, 15 hours and not see a road, you know, 10 hours and not see a road. And they seem so wild even to me being there but i don't think that people realize how much how much humans have already affected that landscape and how it doesn't matter like the this myth that putting wolves back in the land that landscape is going to turn it back to some ecosystem that was here, you know, 300 years ago. I think it's a figment of their imagination, man. And the reason I say that is because I've also spent a fair amount of time in British Columbia that seemed so much more wild to me. And let me kind of like give you context of why that is.

You know, have you ever been to Vail? Colorado. No. Okay. Oh, I have, but not outside. Okay. So if you look at the dynamic of that area, there's a huge highway that goes from Highway 70 that goes from Denver on the front range up, you know, past all the ski resorts, into Vail, into Eagle, and then it kind of goes down through a big canyon, Glenwood Canyon,

and then kicks back into Aspen. All the winter range there is split by this massive highway, and then that highway has an eight foot game fence along the whole thing. And then, you know, along that Vail Valley where they're wanting to put these or where they are going to put these wolves, you know, there's, you know, 50,000 full-time residents and, you know, there's probably double that in the high season, ski season stuff. Plus you've got these huge ski resorts.

I guess what I'm getting at is when somebody tells me that the low hanging fruit to kind of rewild that areas is wolves. It's just bullshit. You know what I mean? How is it getting passed though? Well, it got passed by a ballot initiative, you know, that the ballot initiative is how wolves got, you know, got to the situation they are now. And basically what the BALA initiative did is it forced the CPW to take on this goal of transplanting the wolves. So it wasn't the CPW's choice. And they, you know, there's a, I don't know the exact laws, Joe, but the CPW, and that's the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, they're in charge of managing the wildlife in Colorado. How can they put something like the transplanting of wolves, a very complex biological problem?

I mean, you're dealing with biology and wildlife. How can they put that as a ballot initiative? How can they put that in the hands of people other than wildlife conservation experts, wildlife biologists? Well, I mean, the reality is our laws allow that. You know what I mean? It doesn't make rational sense.

No. You know? But it's a decision that for people that are just like yeah that'd be amazing let's put the woes out there like people are gonna lose their dogs like you're gonna your dogs are gonna get eaten like it's going to affect anyone who has livestock you're gonna have a problem whether that problem's in three years or in five years, those problems are coming. Yeah. Dogs are 100% going to get eaten.

Right. If you have a cute golden retriever like mine, you leave them outside, like, guess what? That dog's dead. Sure. They're going to team up on that dog and tear it apart. Yeah. And if you're cool with going outside and seeing wolves eat your dog, like, well, then you've made the right choice. But if you're not, like, if you don't think they're going to go after low-hanging fruit,

if you don't think they're going to go after easy prey, you don't understand wolves. Talk to people that live in Alaska. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, anybody who lives in, like, British Columbia. Like, they have real fucking wolf problems up there. Right. And these are wolf problems that we used to have in the West, but they eradicated them. Right.

I mean, I don't think it's good to eradicate them. I'm not saying that what they did was right when they poisoned horses and left dead horses filled with strychnine and you know and the wolves all died off but they did it for a fucking reason yeah yeah well and that's the thing that's that's so crazy about you know back to the the process of how it happened, everybody who wants wolves in Colorado, and we can get into, you know, the depth they want them, because that's not really clear. You know, they just went through this whole, you know, setting up the plan for the CPW, and it became very clear in my mind watching that process that they don't really want there to be any, you know uh management of

wolves in colorado either it's gonna ever but no yeah so basically that's crazy yeah and so that that we i think you know anybody rational is going to be like look like we got to have like a top to the population you know there's no management at all well so here's the deal is they're not, they have a draft plan, you know, for, to manage the wolves. What happened is when the CPW did that draft with livestock, you know, could they be lethally managed? But down the road, once they had hit certain population objectives, could they be hunted, right? Like that was discussed. Well, it turns out the ballot initiative basically says that wolves are a non-game species. And that was in the language of the ballot initiative. wolves are a non-game species and that was in the language of the ballot initiative so they can't really they can't really now say the cpw can't really say that they're going to someday be a

hundred a hundred species in colorado i personally think and i you know not everything's like 2020 hindsight but even when the ballot initiative originally you know was out there and I always thought it was going to pass by a landslide. That's what's so crazy because it just barely passed. But I always thought like the problem with Colorado is it's different than these other Western states, you know, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, because they're going to keep the population in line through hunting or other methods. But in Colorado, I don't think the politics are going to allow that, man. I think it's just going to be like who knows what the top is on how many there is,

how much they affect the ungulate population. Who knows? But what I was going to say is what's crazy about this ballot initiative and the bummer part about it is everybody that's going to deal with the negative consequences, they're people that voted no, but they're in the areas where the wolves are going to be transplanted. Everybody that voted for it, they don't have to deal with the downside. They're living in Boulder. Yeah. Dude, and I'm like you, man.

They're cool. Like I've been around them in Canada. They're way cool. Dude, and I'm like you, man. They're cool. Like I've been around them in Canada. They're way cool. But the problem is, is every person that I've interacted with in British Columbia, you know, or even in the Western states that have a fair amount of wolves, every person is just

trying to make a living on the landscape. You know, he's a guide, an outfitter, a logger, a cattle rancher, whatever. Like he's out there living, he or she's out there living with them and dealing with them. They're all just like, when you ask about wolves, they're like, it's just like, you know what I mean? Because they got to deal with the negative consequences all the time. They're a totally different kind of animal than any other animal because they act as

a pack and they have some sort of intelligent communication. They're badass, man. They're amazing. Yeah. They're cunning and crafty and they're efficient, ruthless killers. Yeah. And they also surplus kill. Sure.

They find them, I think it was Wyoming recently, but they found just like a fucking giant pile of elk that they had trapped in high snow and just tore to pieces. Yeah, yeah. elk that they yeah had trapped in high snow and just tore to pieces yeah yeah and i don't know like the stats on how common it is but you know other other predators do that too yeah cats do that yeah yeah yeah but it's you know the difference between them is that they act as a group yeah they're the only one of those predators that acts as a large group yeah no and in they and they're they're effect i mean they're they're effective i mean even when you talk to i know i know a guy in british columbia that's i mean his whole world is his whole world is focused on trapping them and i've sat and talked to him just about like

the details you know like boiling his snares you know how he goes in and puts his snares in you know how he goes in and checks them like all in, you know, how he goes in and checks them, like all that. Boiling a snare sleeve, no scent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because they just pick up on that stuff, you know. They're just so smart. And they know that they're being fucked with too.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, it's funny because the first thing you said is they're a dog. I mean, you have dogs. You know how it is. Like they can figure it out. Yeah, they know things. Yeah, yeah, for yeah for sure i mean i talk to my dog like he understands certain things

right i'm like come on dude let's go outside and it just starts going towards the door yeah oh yeah he knows what that means for sure i can i don't have to say it like want to go outside yeah you want to go outside I could just say hey come on man let's go outside yeah he's like oh yeah let's go outside yeah are you hungry and he's like fuck yeah I'm hungry okay let's see like he knows what that means yeah he knows some aspects of language sure and you know what he is is like a really tame docile version of a wolf. Yeah. A wolf is like a, like, have you ever been around a Belgian Malinois? Yeah, I don't think I'm familiar.

Those are the dogs that they use in war. Okay. Police dogs. Okay. And they are fucking scary little meat missiles. I got you. And they look at you like this. Yeah.

They're always thinking. And you can't just keep one of those motherfuckers in your yard. Right. They're too smart. They're working dogs. First of all, they all they climb fences yeah like a chimpanzee when they just go right up the fence and over it i mean have you ever seen like videos of belgian malinois working i don't think i have joe i'm trying to put it's wild they can do shit where they leap through the air like you can't fucking believe they really can jump that high right like soaring through the air. Like, you can't fucking believe they really can jump that high. Right.

Like, soaring through the air. I'm talking like 12 feet in the air. Sure. They run, jump off a guy's back, and then leap through the air. Like, climb over walls that are like 10 feet tall just by running up the wall. Yeah. It's insane. Pretty wild.

That's a wolf. It's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a Belgian wolf. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've a Belgian. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've seen it, man. Look at this. I mean, that's insane.

It is nuts. How's that dog doing that? Look at him running up the fucking wall. I mean, he's basically a monkey. Got it figured out. Look, he's running up a fucking tree to get to a mitt, and then he's hanging on it. It's crazy. Man, you know, the diversity amongst dogs is wild it is wild but these dogs in particular are bred and look how smart they

are look you can walk across a type rope look at that and that insane i mean that's fucking insane dude they're so intelligent but that's closer to a wolf yeah way closer to look at his ears i mean they're they're basically an athlete wolf yeah you know have you ever seen these uh these great pyrenees dogs that they run with the sheep yes yeah they're they're they're well they're cool in a much different way yeah but they basically think they're sheep yeah you know pull up uh great pyrenees dogs yeah they're interesting it Yeah. You know? Pull up Great Pyrenees dogs. Yeah, they're interesting. It's so wild that they all came from wolves and that you have so many different styles of, like, the way they look. Dude, these dogs.

So there's big, big domestic sheep permits where I used to outfit. So guys running, you know, big bands of sheep periodically in the wilderness areas, and they keep these dogs with them. big bands of sheep periodically in the wilderness areas and they keep these dogs with them. And these dogs are something else to run into, you know, in the night up in the mountains or whatever. And they're just, you know, they just protect those sheep. Just, you know, you see these big bands of sheep like this. And do they keep wolves off of them? Yeah. So, so I've heard mixed things and this will be interesting because right where they're going to put some of these wolves in Colorado, there's some pretty big domestic sheep guys that run these Pyrenees dogs.

Oh, Jesus Christ. And they actually, so sheep in the wilderness are one of the few animals that are still guarded by humans. You know, they usually have a herder with them. Yeah. And a lot of them are guys from, nowadays it seems to be that most of them are from Peru, I believe. And I used to run into the guys because they've been out there living with these sheep man for like weeks at a time so yeah even though there's a language barrier like when

they see you up there like they want to they want to hang out you know say hi or whatever just happy to see people yeah they'll have like a they'll have a horse with them you know maybe i don't know probably five six hundred sheep and they'll have a couple of those dogs wow you know but back to your original question is i've heard mixed things about these dogs ability to to deal with wolves you know and and it has to do with the fact that well there's more than you know there's a group of wolves so if they can draw one of these dogs off you know that wolves can wolves can kill them i know i i've heard and i'm not an expert at it but i know that some people in wolf country what they'll do is on the great pyrenees they'll put they'll put spike collars on them so the you know the

wolves can't get a hold of them because these dogs are big like they're a lot bigger than a wolf than most wolves how big are these dogs? These Great Pyrenees dogs? What are they weighing about? Dude, I'm thinking, Jamie might have to look this up, but I think they're, yeah, mid- 160. Yeah, 150, 160.

That's what I was thinking. That's a big dog. Yeah. You know. But I don't know how well they'll do with the wolves. And, man, there's stories of wolves getting into these domestic sheep and killing like 100.

You know, just, you know. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how that's all going to work. It's not going to work well. No.

I mean, this idea that it's always good when you reintroduce predators. Like, it says who? Like. Yeah. The balance right now is pretty goddamn good. Like, I don't know what they're thinking. They just have this idea that wolves are amazing. Well, says who? Like. Yeah. The balance right now is pretty goddamn good. Like, I don't know what they're thinking. They just have this idea that wolves are amazing. Well, guess what?

Wolves are eventually making their way into Colorado anyway. Right. I mean, it's a natural thing that's happening. Yeah. And at least the way it's happening, it'll probably be more sustainable than just dropping off a patch of them in an area that has domestic animals right man i joe i don't know why there's i mean i do understand why there's an obsession with them they're beautiful and they're cool oh yeah but i i almost feel like are you familiar with the uh it i believe the the name of the youtube video is Why Wolves Change Rivers

Yeah, yeah, I've seen it But that guy, do you know the guy who made that? He's a fan of wilding And he wants to bring like lions to the UK Yeah, yeah, yeah Like he's fucking insane Yeah, like there's no limit to this logic Of this like trophic cascade idea

Yes Yeah, well, what's crazy to me man is like so if you watch that that that video and it's got like 50 million views on youtube or something like that it's narrated by a guy i mean it's it's really well done yeah it's just it's just cool to watch but you watch it i mean if you listen to the first 90 seconds there's like a and the reason i bring this video up is because i actually think that this video was the start of what happened in Colorado. It was a lot of people watch this, and they're like, yeah, it makes sense. You get this predator in here.

It fixes all the problems, you know, with the range. Balances things out. Yeah, it brings everything back. But in that video, man, in the first 90 seconds, there's a bald-faced lie. They say—I don't know what it is you want to play it should we play yeah yeah let's let's play it and i can how wolves change rivers yeah yeah it's um the guy behind it is is very controversial i mean i think it's interesting i think it's interesting that he has such a passion towards these animals but this guy legitimately

thinks that wilding and rewilding is the way to go for everything. Let's play. Right. Woo! That's how they get you, the beautiful sound. And plus the guy's accent. You'll see, man, it draws you in. They're cool.

They're fucking cool. Beautiful. One of the most exciting scientific findings They're cool. They're fucking cool. Beautiful. One of the most exciting scientific findings of the past half century has been the discovery of widespread trophic cascades. A trophic cascade is an ecological process which starts at the top of the food chain and tumbles all the way down to the bottom. And the classic example is what happened in the Yellowstone National Park in the United States when wolves were reintroduced in 1995. Now, we all know that wolves kill various species of animals,

but perhaps we're slightly less aware that they give life to many others. less aware that they give life to many others. Before the wolves turned up, they'd been absent for 70 years, that the numbers of deer, because there was nothing to hunt them, had built up and built up in the Yellowstone Park. And despite efforts by humans to control them, they'd managed to reduce much. So that's the lie right there. Despite efforts to be controlled by humans in Yellowstone. That is just factually incorrect, Joe. Yeah, it's not true at all.

No, it's not true at all in Yellowstone. So the history of Yellowstone actually, you know, until like the 60s, there's two things going on in the park when they had excess elk which which they which makes sense because what people don't realize i mean they were killing predators before the 60s in yellowstone like they were suppressing lions in addition to the fact that they had already killed the wolves you know so there was predator suppression going on even in the park before the 60s well in the 60s well in the in the late 50s and 60s and i might be roughly off on these dates but the park was actually uh capturing elk and they are transporting them to all the other states that needed elk you know because i think that's where

they got them in california for tohono ranch yeah yeah that might yeah that might that might be man because most the all the big transplants in colorado idaho like you know outside of the park they were they were yellowstone genetics you know and i actually even know i know that some of the um you know some of the elk that ended up down on the indian reservations and stuff they were originally yellow can i ask you about that before we move on someone i was hunting with this guy in utah and he was telling me there's there's literally two different kinds of elk and the reason why these elk like in the the gila mountain range and the the elk in tahone ranch and they're so big is because these are yellowstone elk and that the Yellowstone elk have wider bases, more mass, they're larger animals. He was like, it's like, like, you know, you have a Roosevelt elk, you have a Thule elk,

you have a Rocky Mountain elk. He's like, you have a Yellowstone elk. He's like, it's a different elk. Yeah. So I don't know specifically related to Yellowstone elk, but I actually, I actually do know some people who had original Yellowstone, they original, so they had original Yellowstone genetic elk on their place. And it's a, it's a big high fence place owned by, owned by the natives in, uh, in New Mexico. And they actually started to bring in genetics out of Alberta and those elk out of Alberta are way bigger than the Yellowstone elk so so but that's interesting so what you're saying I imagine is true Joe I just don't know exactly but what I have seen is there's huge different man like I saw a cow on this particular place I'm talking about, and it was bigger than any bull I had ever had a client kill in the fight.

What? Like, when we were, like, it was the cow popped up in the brush there probably, like, 500 yards from us, and I hadn't picked up my binoculars yet. There's no way you could have convinced me that was a cow because it was probably, you know, it was probably like a 750-pound cow. What? Yeah. I've never even heard of such a thing.

Oh, yeah. They're physically, you know, they're physically way bigger. But is that normal? I mean, you're saying this is the Alberta genes? These are Alberta genetics. Yeah. So is that that thing? What is that?

There's a thing that happens with animals when they're in cold climates where mammals grow larger. I know what you're saying. Yeah. It's like the same thing between like southern BC moose and Yukon moose. The Yukon moose are way bigger. Yeah. And it's also deer, right? Yeah. Like, you know, you have Coos deer that are little tiny suckers.

And then you get all the way to Saskatchewan, there's 350-pound whitetails. Yeah, yeah, sure. Or even— Bergman's rule? Is that it? It says it's named after— I think that's it. It's a biology-established concept called Bergman's rule states creatures that grow

in the world tend to be larger. To conserve heat. The rule's named after Carl Bergman, a 19th-century biologist who first described the pattern in 1847. Yeah, it totally makes sense. Like Texas deer are so tiny. Oh, yeah. It's really interesting.

Yeah, like if you compared like a South Texas whitetail to like an Alberta whitetail. Or an Idaho whitetail. Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's way different. They're a fucking giant up there. Yeah. Or Iowa. Yeah, and it's not all feed related.

Right. Part of it is obviously this. Bergman's law. Yeah, this law that you're talking about. That makes sense. So I've never even heard of a cow elk being that big. Oh, yeah, man. There's for sure a regional.

I mean, part of that's probably like genetics or like selective breeding of elk too over time, which that does exist. There's an industry that does that. So that might be part of elk too over time, which, you know, that does exist. There's an industry that does that. So that might be part of it too. It could be that these animal too, like much like what we're talking about with California, with Tohono Ranch, you have these animals that are used to living in Montana, say with the California, Tohono Ranch. And then all of a sudden they're living in, you know, the Tachapi Mountains and they have no winter to speak of right where they're deprived of food they have food all year round now and so they have this body that's designed to consume as much as much food as possible because winter's coming right and then winter never comes yeah so they

just get giant yeah yeah yeah and that would make sense too i mean i was you know elk are funny joan i'm sure you've heard the stories like you hear people talking about killing wild elk like oh i killed a bull he had to weigh like 900 pounds like dude i've i mean i've put a ton quartered up a ton of bulls in my life and a big wild bull is you know 650 pounds 700 pounds be a big one you know they don't get as big as people a lot of people say you know what i mean but if you go to tahoe and ranch yeah they probably are yeah you're probably right no i've seen 1100 1200 pound elk yeah so that's you know that's that's 60 bigger than the bulls that i was exposed to in colorado yeah they're extraordinarily large yeah But then you see a moose and you're like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the first time I saw a moose live on the hoof walking around was in B.C. Yeah. And it was like that scene in Jurassic Park. We pulled over the truck. We were driving down the road and we pulled over the truck and I stuck my head out the window like, what the fuck? It was so big. Isn't it goofy? Because they're like that whole depiction of them in cartoons like Bullwinkle, it kind of fits them.

Yeah. They're just like. But fucking dangerous. Oh, yeah. The thing about them that scares me more than any other, they'll come for you. They'll go after you. Yeah, yeah. Whereas like no other deer species like goes, oh, you want to start some shit?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll come over and stomp you. Yeah. I remember, you know, it's funny, like when you're riding in the mountains with, you know, you're riding a horse and maybe you've got like three or four mules with you. A lot of times you'll pick up off of them that they sent something before you see it. You know, because they smell something. And usually they'll start like puffing their nostrils. And a lot of times it would be moose. You know, start you you can i can hear them huffing those those mules and

horses they're what they're trying to do is they're trying to get more scent in so they can they can be like they know exactly what it is right and a lot of times like as you're going around a switchback or something you can hear them huffing and sure enough you come around the corner and they'll just be like a bull you know bull moose standing there in the trail nothing give a shit he's like i mean what do you want to do yeah yeah like you know you're you didn't you you seem like you're you know you'd seem like you'd be kind of like a you know uh you know a big you know intimidating yeah intimidating exactly yeah and they just like look at you like you're gonna have to go around you know so several moose like i've literally like drug a string of mulesules up the hill, through the aspens,

and crashing through a bunch of crap just so the moose can stand there on the trail. I've never seen a Yukon moose on the hoof. I would love to. I haven't either, but you see these guys that kill them, and holy smokes, man. I've watched some of those Jim Shockey videos. Oh, yeah, yeah. Where he goes up there, and they have antlers that are the size of this table. Yeah.

You just see them when they glass them up, and the paddles on them are like... It's insane. They're so big. It's hard to believe that they're that much bigger, but I guess that's that Bergman's rule. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, because it's cold as fuck up there. Yeah, and just genetics and everything else. But moose, like Colorado's starting to get some huge moose, man.

Are they shiris moose? Yeah, they're shiris, but, I mean, a 50-inch moose is not uncommon. Really? Oh, wow. Yeah, in the areas that I was guiding and outfitting in. And it was cool, you know, Joe, because early on when I started, we rarely saw a moose, man, like almost never. Like if you saw a cow moose, that was like major day, you know.

By the time I, you know, 10 years later, we always saw moose and big ones, you know. Do you know Adam Green Tree? I don't know him personally. I know of him. Adam filmed a grizzly bear in the San Juans. Yeah, which is possible, man. Do you know the history of the last grizzly bear that they saw in there?

No. Oh, man. I don't want to get the dates and stuff messed up, but it was weird. And it's just to tie on to your story. They said they were extinct. They weren't around. And then a bow hunter went in there,

I want to say like 15 years after they said they were extinct. They weren't around. And then a bow hunter went in there, I want to say like 15 years after they said they were extinct. And he went in there and he got mauled by one. And he came out and he's like, look, I just killed a grizzly bear. I mean, I'm telling you I did. And they said, no, no way you didn't. And they went back in there with him. And sure enough, he had. You'd have to look up the exact story because I'm sure I kind of butchered it.

Here it is. In 1979, Ed Wiseman, a Colorado hunting guide, crossed paths with a grizzly bear during an expedition near the headwaters of the Navajo River. Wiseman was attacked and mauled. What happened? But while he was down, he managed to fake. Oh, my God. What the fuck is this? Is this like...

What is up with this website? It's loading a picture and it's changing. Oh, I see. It's just a shitty website. But while he was down, he managed to fatally wound the bear by hand using an arrow. Wild. A fucking arrow. But look, man.

So they said they'd been extinct for like 20 or 30 years already. How the fuck do they know? Here's the thing. Like, that kind of talk is so wild. Are you out there with cameras in every fucking acre of that land? Shut up. You don't know. You should really take the word of the people that find these things out there.

Because those people are actually there. Right. How deep do the biologists go? I mean, how often are they there? How many boots on the ground wildlife surveyors do you have that are telling you exactly what, you know, how many bears there are? Yeah, yeah. How could you know? Yeah, who knows?

So cocky. And like on Adam's deal in the San Juans, I don't know. He filmed it. Yeah. And I've seen the videos. And, you know, personally, I don't know that I could say 100% either way. But I do know that people for sure who have seen them in northern Colorado, like across the border, seen tracks, something like that. Of course.

I mean, the neighboring states have. They're next to Wyoming. Yeah, yeah. Wyoming has them. Yeah, something like that. Of course. I mean, the neighboring states have. They're next to Wyoming. Yeah, yeah. Wyoming has them. The idea that a grizzly's not gonna move from Wyoming to Colorado. He knows it's not his turf. Well, dude, the thing about them is people don't understand. They can roam.

There's something that gets in bears' heads where they will, well, not just bears. Cats. Yeah, cats, a little bighorn ram who he's just tired of getting the shit beat out of him from this band of rams he's been hanging out. All of a sudden, he just starts moving, man. He's just going to go find, like, a new place to live, and they'll travel, like, crazy distances.

There's a cool bear study, and, man, I wish I knew the gal's name that did it, where they collared a bunch of bears, and it was done, I believe, in New Mexico. And it's crazy to see how far these bears will move. Like, they'll go where they're denning, and they'll travel, I want to say, like, 200, 300 miles, hit up an elk calving ground, and then they'll go another 100 miles, you know, for somewhere else that they like to hang out in the fall to hit, you know, acorns or something. So this bear is doing an insane trip. Wow.

It's wild. So, yeah, it's for sure possible. Of course. And it's likely. It means that. I mean, I trust Adam. He's just so knowledgeable. Yeah, he knows.

Yeah, I got you. Like he wouldn't say, like he would just say, oh my God, look at that black bear. Yeah, yeah. He would say it was a giant black bear. Sure. But he's like, that's a fucking grizzly bear. Yeah, yeah. He was filming it through his, his, his, his.

And he's got like the, he's got his gun out and the whole deal, right? Oh, that's a different one. That's a different one. Okay. This is one that he filmed. Okay. So look at the size of that. Just look at what it looks like.

Sure. So this is, I believe he's got film footage. No, it's okay. So that is just, but just even those photos, that looks exactly like a brown bear. I mean, that doesn't look like a black bear to me. Yeah, they get that blonde kind of shine to them. Yeah, that looks like a fucking brown bear, man. I mean, look, it could be a massive color-faced bear.

Right. It could be. Yeah, yeah. But the odds are not that good. Yeah, when they get that gold, I can't remember the term that people use for it, but they get that golden kind of like blondness at the end of the hair. And I've seen it. You know, we used to have a bunch of black bears in my area that have like mohawks.

You ever seen like red mohawks? Yeah. That's the one. Okay, this is 100% a grizzly bear. But I believe this was in Idaho? Is that where it was? Or Montana? He started in Colorado.

He's now in Montana. That was because he was hunting for 28 days straight solo. But he actually drove to Montana. And then he had an encounter with a female. By the way, he lives in Australia where pistols are, you know, you can't even get a fucking pistol. Oh, okay. So someone gave him a pistol to borrow while he was out there. What he didn't know is that the rounds were the wrong round for the pistol he had.

So his gun was not going to work. So here he is pointing this gun at this grizzly bear. And if you see the video, it's fucking crazy. The bear runs up on him. Here it is. He's got a chance. Let's give it some volume. I had no mind in life either, so.

So I drew my handgun. It's something that you carry, especially when you're by yourself. How about a handgun that works, bitch? You live in a shitty country. It'll teach you about guns over there. She turned off at about 20 yards, so it was just like a bluff charge.

I stayed dead still just with the pistol drawn, pointed that up. See, look at this gun. See? Oh, yeah. See it? Like, it's already, it's jammed. Look how the front is sticking out.

Like the slide. Yeah, so look at the slide, like the entrance on the right-hand side. That gun is not doing jack shit. Yeah. Which is really funny because he doesn't even know. He had false hope. He's a bow hunter.

That is kind of funny. It's funny that he was like, he's pointing a magic wand at a grizzly bear. Yeah, yeah. Be gone! Well, the thing is, man, is like, it's not like, I mean, I've been around grizzlies a fair amount. I've never had like a threatening type of, you know, interaction with them. But I've actually had like a few little things with black bears.

And every time I guided a black bear hunt, Joe, and like I walked up to a black bear, you know, with a hunter, it's not like they're not scary. You know, you look at their claws and you're like, well, man, dude, it's like it slaps you. You know, you look at their claws and you're like, well, man, dude, it's like it slaps you. Isn't it also true that more black bears attack people to try to eat them than grizzlies? I think that's like when black bears attack you in general, it's like a predatory thing. Right. Whereas grizzlies get surprised. And there's these scary black bear encounters or black bear things you hear about where the bears are habituated like campgrounds and stuff and they attack people in their tents and some and i don't know that

that is scary i was listening to it uh somebody talked about it recently i can't remember who it was but there's something about when you get attacked in a tent and they think that in general if it's grizzly or black bear that is more of like a like predatory i'm gonna eat you type of thing yes maybe because it's at night you know what i mean like they they do some of their hunting at night also i think it's like a burrito yeah there's like gonna tear it open yeah it's a wrap you know yeah yeah it's crazy it's like, how is this stupid animal stuck inside this cloth bag? Yeah. Perfect for me to just tear through and eat it.

Yeah, yeah. Because for them, the smell must be amazing. It must be like bacon with an open window. That's what a camper smells like to them? Yeah, it smells like bacon. It probably smelled fantastic. Yeah. fantastic yeah i do know that it seems to me that most of the um the uh uh the attacks from black bears have been bears that are habituated you know i mean that makes sense they're used to people

one of the ones there was recently there was a montana a woman who was mauled who was killed in her tent she was on a bike trip and she was making her way and she had actually chased this bear off earlier and then she decided well he's gone and she went making her way. And she had actually chased this bear off earlier. And then she decided, well, he's gone. And she went to bed, and he's like, no, I'm not. He showed back up. And then he came and ate her. Yeah, it's scary.

Yeah. I mean, I've had them. You know, have you ever been around black bears when they're kind of, we call it jacking their jaws, but they jack their jaws? It's a real, it's kind of, you can, you know exactly, even if you never heard it before, if you hear it, exactly what they mean yeah i mean like you need to get get out of here what's weird is their sound like they sound like a monkey they sound like an ape yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah when they do that it's like wow that's weird yeah dude one i gotta tell you

you know they do that yeah yeah it's strange yeah. It's very strange. It's wild. You know, it's funny because they also make, I mean, the, you know, a sow will talk to their cubs quite a bit too. Have you ever heard that? It's kind of like, I don't know what this, it's almost like a little mewing sound. I mean, I call it a mew, like an elk mew, but it's kind of that same tonal structure, but it sounds a little bit different. And I hadn't heard it before but you know i'll tell you this story real quick joe's kind of kind of a wild deal i was i was guiding a hunter and we were watching these bears and they were they were in oak brush they're they're basically stripping acorns off this oak brush and a lot of

times what these black bears will do the sows will kick their they'll kick their cubs up in the oak like this oak brush could be as high as this room man you know and what will happen is they'll kick their cubs up in the oak brush and when you're glassing the oak brush you'll be looking in the oak brush and you'll just see the little furry cub and he'll be just hanging in the tree you know and then you don't see the sow because the canopy of the oak brush is covering her, you know, but you, so a lot of times when I was guiding bear hunters, I always would look for that, you know, cause you can't, you don't, you, you know, obviously just from like, nobody wants to kill the mom of two little baby cubs, but

it's also illegal to do that, you know? So you're always looking, you don't want to make a mistake. So I would always be glassing the oak brush for for Cubs and so we were watching this this hillside and I saw a couple Cubs and then I could see their mom kind of cruising underneath them you know every once while she'd pop out and then so we were we were kind of paying attention you're just they're cool to watch we were watching them and then a boar black bear came up the hill right in front of us it may have was probably like 200 yard difference or something and we watched him and the hunter wanted to shoot him but we

didn't have a clear shot so we just kind of kept watching them and the bears kind of started mingling together and it was getting maybe the last like 30 40 minutes of light and finally this bear got out and i actually remember because he was he got a hold of like something that had been dead forever. And it was in the ground, like an old winter kill or something. This boar black bear. And he was just trying to tear it up. And he's digging on it.

But that gave the hunter the shot. And so he shot the bear. And I saw the bear start rolling down this canyon. And so I was like, all right, you're good to go. He goes down and he lands on a tree, like, you know, off to his left a little bit, just kind of came down the topography of the mountain. I'm like, you're good, but we should get over there

while we got light just to maneuver around the canyon. So I get over there and we get above the bear and, you know, it's pretty steep and I'm looking down and I see him against the tree and then I hear a cub up in the tree, like, you know know up in the canopy and I'm like what is going on like I know for a fact that that's not you know that's how yeah I know that's not a sow and and and but it but it like made my heart bump like oh shit did we make

some sort of like horrible mistake so I I trot down there and I remember grabbing this bear's back leg and I pick his leg up and I see his balls i'm like fuck yeah you know what i mean like you know because you don't want to make like that i'd feel shitty you know i'd feel horrible so i'm like dude okay that cub that's up in those trees is is not you know this isn't the mom so good deal but i'm thinking myself like where's this cub so i look look Joe in the same tree that this bear rolled down Into that cub was in it. He was in the same tree that this just ran. Yeah randomly man So the sow was around there somewhere. Yeah, dude, so that's the problem like Immediately when I realized this I start hearing that just jaws. Oh, yeah

Yeah, she's nearby and she's really vocal and she's trying to call to the cub you know so what do you do do you back out so i'm thinking we have to right yeah we got to just back up so we get we get we back up the hill and we just watch you know it's like well this is the deal and it was crazy joe like literally it's felt like forever but it couldn't have been more for more than 30 or 40 minutes because it's getting dark but this cub would come down he'd come down the tree i'd watch him you know get down halfway and then he'd look down he'd see the boar and he'd go back up you know i was like oh this is gonna last forever and finally man i wish i i wish i had the foresight

to video it but he just kept working down as his mom was calling to him. And then right at the end before he came out, he was like maybe three feet above the dead bear at the base of the tree. And he jumped out of the tree and he landed on the dead boar bear. And he kind of just like looked around and then he ran off to his mom. Like, awesome. That's awesome. But those kind of situations, man, any time I got between near cubs or where the sow didn't have visual to the cubs,

that would freak me out regardless if it was grizz or black bear, you know? Yeah, mama bears don't fuck around. Yeah, they don't, yeah. You know, they call mama humans mama bears. Yeah, dude, well, it could be like an 80-pound black bear sow, and you're still like, man, dude, I don't could be, it could be like an 80 pound black bear, Sal. And you're still like, man, dude, I don't want to, you don't want any of that, you know? No. Yeah. My God. An

80 pound dog coming after you. Imagine that. And that's way scarier than a dog. It's funny. It was like black bears. We think of as being sort of innocuous. Like, what are you talking about? There's a 300 pound wild predator. Yeah. Dude. and you pick up their paws, and it's like, you get slapped with it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's not good. You're not doing well. Yeah. Do you still hunt them?

Yeah. Yeah, I haven't in years, but I used to go up with my friends John and Jen up in Alberta. Oh, okay, sure. Cam goes up there every year. Cam Haynes. They have a very bear-rich environment up there. Oh, yeah. By the way, up there, you get Yeah. Cam Haines. They have a very bear-rich environment up there. Oh, yeah. By the way, up there, you get wolf tags over the counter.

Yeah. I mean, that's how much of a wolf problem they have there. Yeah. You go to the gas station to buy a bear tag, you pick up a wolf tag. I think it's like $40. Sure. You know. You probably haven't met a whole bunch of canadians up there that are huge

huge wolf fans none yeah they don't like them at all i know it's so interesting right go to boulder and talk to people about wolves like wolves are amazing that's my spirit animal yeah but there's just a difference between like people who have to deal with the negative consequences and i'm like you man like i don't want them to be like i them. I don't want to be eradicated off off the earth. But I do realize that, like, they have negative consequences for some folks. And I mean, you have to be you have to look at it, man. It's like, well, everybody, you know, you got all these people have to deal with the problems. They don't, you know, other people are voting in for them to basically have to deal with them day to day.

Exactly. It's like someone saying defund the police in a city they don't live in. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like, yeah, defund the police. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know why people get value out of that. It's an enigma to me, man.

Well, you know, the beautiful thing about this country is that everyone can vote. The horrible thing about this country is that everyone can vote. Yeah, yeah. It's an enigma to me, man. Well, you know, the beautiful thing about this country is that everyone can vote. The horrible thing about this country is that everyone can vote. Yeah, yeah. That's right, dude. Exactly. Part of the same thing. But it's a fellow like you, you understand what, you know, you understand the ecosystem, you understand these animals, and you spent so much time with them. It's like those are the people that really should be making that assessment. It's like if you want to vote on certain things and you do not have an understanding of that thing that you're voting on, you really shouldn't vote on it.

It's like you can't – if you don't have an educated perspective on it, then this is crazy. You're just allowing people to just guess whether or not it'd be good to bring back wolves and of course these these pro animal animal rights groups that want these animals and look they love these fucking animals and i get it and it's not that they're bad people it's just they're also misguided because people who love these animals aren't hunting them they're not out there you're not you're not entrenched in the day-to-day existence of what it means to be a wild animal,

what it means to be a predator and a prey, what it means to be an undulate, what it means to be a cat. If you never locked eyes to eyes with a mountain lion in the wild, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. There's all these weird things that you're picking up off of instagram videos you know like you have your virtue signaling yeah yeah well and i caught your i caught your episode you did with uh there is derrick wolf right yes yeah yeah that line was huge man fucking huge would they say it weighed 170 plus pounds dressed you know if it if it

weren't for the fact that um i't know the guy that he was with. I don't know him personally, but we're acquainted. He worked in a different part of Colorado, and he has a very good reputation. If it weren't for the fact that I knew that he was with him, I would say that that's bullshit because I never heard of a lion being 180 pounds. Yeah, his buddy Alex was his guide. I'm sorry. What did I say?

You didn't say your name. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. He just said a guide. He was here too. He was hanging out with him when he was in town. Oh, okay. You met him.

Yeah. He's very well respected. Some of my guides worked for him and stuff. He's on the cover of Bowhunting Magazine now. Pull up the photo. It's Derek Wolf's Instagram. He's such a fucking good guy but 180 pound lion man like that's that's huge yeah well it was he said it was 200 pounds he said

like if you take away the guts and the blood oh that's right that's what he said so it's 170 plus look at this now if you don't know how big derrick is when you're in front of derrick derrick's a goddamn yeah he's a viking i mean it's like a hundred percent Viking jeans He's enormous big guy Enormous not big so if you put me holding up that cat it would be fucking crazy Yeah, yeah, the cat's bigger than me for sure. It's basically weighed what I weigh I weigh 200 pounds So imagine a fucking mountain lion that's 200 pounds. I saw one in Utah, a big one under a tree.

But it was, you know, I mean, I guessed. Like, someone's like, how big? I was like, it looked like a 170-pound cat. Like, fucking huge. Yeah. It was really big. It was me and my friend Colton. We were driving.

And as we were driving, he stopped. It was like at dusk. He stops the truck. He goes, look under that tree. It's a fucking cat. And I look. And I catch the eyes glowing from the low light. You see the light?

And then I put my binos on him. So I'm inside. We're 30 yards away from this cat. I put the bino on him. I just see this big pumpkin head and his fucking demon cat eyes. I'm like, oh, my God, he's so big. His forearms were just jacked. Yeah, yeah.

They were so big. It's funny you say the forearm thing. I've skinned a ton of lions. And every time I skin one, Joe, when you look at their forearm on a lion, it's not like any other. It's like an arm wrestler. Yeah, dude. It's like an arm wrestler. Yeah, dude. It's crazy.

Like, you know how a deer or an elk, if you just go with your knife and you just get through the hide, like circle the joint, you know, maybe you nick the tendons a little bit. You know, most guys, if they hit it right, they can just snap it, right? No way with a lion, man. No way. Because, like, the tendons and just the structure right here is just totally different. Do you know that one lion that was living in California in the Hollywood Hills? Have you ever seen that photo? We have that photo.

Yeah, see the forearm, man? Yeah, that's exactly right. We have that photo, that exact photo. We have a giant version of it outside of the studio. Yeah, dude. Look at the collar on it. It's so crazy. That's an awesome photo, but it shows that forearm Yeah, dude. With a collar on it. It's so crazy. That's an awesome photo,

but it shows that forearm thing, dude. Massive. And they have a dewclaw. They got a dewclaw down low, you know, like a floating dewclaw. Just something to crab onto when they're wrestling? Well, you know what they do with it, because I've seen them swatting at dogs with it.

And what they want to do, because I used to watch them, and I'm like, what are they doing? And so what I realized is that they're trying to hook. Like, they want to do. Cause I, I used to watch them and I'm like, what are they doing? And so what I realized is that they're trying to hook, like they want to reach out and hook you, hook the dog with that and bring the dog to their mouth because they want the dog in their mouth. You know, that's how they get ahold of, you know, they, they, what I've noticed about them, just, just my observation. So I might be talking to my ass a little bit, but it sure seems like if they can do it, they want to hold stuff with their mouth and they're using their hands to bring it, you know, to bring it to their mouth. That picture to me, can you put that picture up again?

That picture to me, I love that picture. And one of the reasons why, first of all, it looks like it's staged, but it's just a camera trap. That's way cool and the fact that it's wearing a collar and the fact that it's with the hollywood sign in the background so this thing is in the middle of an incredibly dense heavily populated area and it's just murdering dogs oh yeah murdering dogs i mean you know how many dogs go missing in that area a fuck load yeah there's no deer you can't find a goddamn deer up there good luck sure you very rarely see deer in the hollywood hills and that's why because you have a monster you have 150 pound monster just

cruising around with jack popeye forearms yeah they're they're lions are crazy man the craziest thing about them to me is that if if you're not actively hunting them you you don't realize how how many are around like in all my years of guiding man i think i've glassed up like maybe three or four and then and then all my other experience with them is hunting them. But I can only imagine the dozens and dozens that have just been sitting up on a rock or something as I cruise by. And I never knew about it. They're stealthy. Yeah. I saw one in Montecito in Santa Barbara.

I was driving. Oh, that one on someone's lawn or someone's fucking porch. That's in Los Feliz? Yeah. Oh, my God, really? They think it was that one. They're not sure. Well, that cat was sick by the end of its life.

They think it had gotten hit by a car. And I think they euthanized it. That looks terrible. It looks smaller than that. It does look. But it might be starving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the same day.

I think P-22 or whatever it was. Yeah, it's P-22s they call him. I think when he died, he was very ill. I think they wound up euthanizing him. I'm pretty sure he got hit by a car. Something happened that really fucked him up and kept him from being able to hunt, which is probably why he's sitting on people's porches. He's hoping they have a poodle he can eat.

Figure out something easy. Dude, they're cool, man. I've personally killed a couple of them. It's funny, Joe. I love hunting them, man. They're really fun to hunt. I don't have the urge to ever kill another one, but I would love to continue to go with people.

What do they taste like? Derek said they tasted delicious. Yeah, dude, they're good. They're like lean pork, and they look like lean pork. That's how I would describe it. I bet you if I fed it to you, you'd think, like, this is like lean pork that maybe tastes like a little overcooked or something. Rinella said it's better than pork.

He likes it. Yeah, he sent me a photo of some stuff that he cooked yeah how was it he goes it was superb yeah yeah yeah you know he goes amazing I uh I I then the meat man is um it's I'll show it to you because it looks like it it looks like pork too man no I've definitely seen it online I never never had a chance to try it, though, in person. I've got to take a leak, man. Yeah, go for it. Let's pause for a bit.

We'll come back. This is new. Hydrated Joe has a real problem. I used to be able to go three hours. We had it a half an hour longer than the other days. Yeah, the other day it was bad. But I've been really amping up my hydration. I got blood work I found when I was dehydrated,

and now I'm just drinking water all day. But it's a fucking problem. Before I go on stage, I have to make sure I pee before I go on stage. Because I'm on stage for an hour. I can't have to piss while I'm doing stand-up.

All right, let's pause for a bit. Let's talk about it. So while we were peeing, Jamie was Googling the new chat GPT, which just got released. Is it 4.0? Is that what it is? Yeah, I guess, yeah, because they were on 3.5 would be the highest I think it was. And is everybody freaking out? Is it scary?

Well, they're showing, and I can't, I mean, let me see if I can skip ahead to something. Literally right now they're doing the demonstration of it live for everybody to see. They just showed some of the like test scores on their website right after they announced this this afternoon they showed some exam scores they put it up against GPT 3.5

down here it's like passing AP calculus which I guess the blue would have been GPT 3 green is the new one some of the ones that it passed I think those were not as good The blue would have been GPT-3. Green is the new one. Some of the ones that it passed, I think those were not as good, but it did pass the bar exam, I believe, at a very high rate. It's translating stuff into different languages now at a very high rate.

The thing I thought was crazy is it understands memes, so it can read this picture. It's breaking down that it's in three panels. It tells you what's in each panel and then what the humor is about that. Wow. And there's different examples of that. I don't know exactly what else. Let's scroll back up. Let's scroll back up.

It says the humor from this image comes from the absurdity of plugging a large, outdated VGA connector into a small, modern smartphone charging port. Oh. Okay. connector into a small modern smartphone charging port. Oh. It's just, yeah, I mean, it's not that it's funny on its own, but it's just, it can understand that. Interesting. And then I'm waiting to find out some of this other stuff that is in it. And this is one day, right? It's just one day of chat GPT.

I even saw already there's like a robocall company that's going to make it so that if you get a call from a scammer, you hit a button on your phone, and I'm not even sure where you hit it, it instantly creates a thousand-word lawsuit to go against them using what they just called you with. Oh, my God. And GP3.5 could not do that very well, and they're saying 4.0 is really good at it already today. Oh, my God.

And I don't know where this goes or what happens. We're going to be completely entangled with this world of artificial intelligence. You know what's crazy, man, is I don't want to have anything to do with it. You shouldn't. Well, especially considering what you have been doing for all these years as a guide and an outfitter. It's like the last thing. It's like as far removed from that world

as possible this may sound like so asinine joe but i i just look at i'm like i i already feel like i'm playing the coolest video game right in you know yeah like the real video game man yeah you know like there's there's so many different like outdoor stuff even beyond what i've done like you know i mean over the last couple of months, I've become obsessed with tarpon fishing and go fishing with my kids every day. And I'm like, dude, there's like a million different little outdoor adventures that I can take and I can learn about the gear and learn about the skill set. I don't want to have anything to do with the metaverse, man. Tarpon fishing must be fun. Those things.

But you can't eat them, right? Yeah, you can't eat them. At all? There's no way to eat them? Well, I mean, I think you can't. Can you smoke them or something? I think you can't. Well, so I don't know what they taste like or what the deal is.

I mean, obviously, you could eat them. Well, let's Google. Why can't you eat tarpon? The main reason they're not eaten is just because of their value as a sport fish. That's it? But what about marlin? Because people eat marlin. Yeah, but even billfish like marlin, sailfish and stuff, a lot of the times they don't eat them because they want to re-catch them.

So it says tarpon are rarely eaten because their flesh is filled with small, hard-to-clean bones. In the United States, the tarpon usually is caught for sport and then released as a bony, strong-smelling saltwater fish. It may be more trouble than pleasure to eat. Yeah, and I've heard that. They're, like, very bony. Have you ever seen them, Joe? No, not in the flesh. They have, like, a prehistoric look, man.

No, not in the flesh. They have like a prehistoric look, man. A tarpon can be harvested only for those anglers that are seeking the state of Florida record for tarpon fishing. Are they only in Florida? Is it the only state that has them? No, the Caribbean has them, lots of places. But it'd be in the United States? Is Florida the only state that has them in the United States? I don't think so. So it says a special stamp must be acquired along with a saltwater fishing license to harvest a tarpon of any size.

Yeah. Interesting. So if you want to get a trophy, you have to have a stamp in advance. Like imagine if you're just tarpon fishing and you get a world record. Like, hey, I don't have a stamp. You have to just let it go. Yeah. I don't have a stamp.

You have to just let it go. Yeah, you know, a lot of times now with fish, like when people get them mounted, they're replicas anyways. Yeah, of course. You know, most billfish and stuff. That's a weird thing, isn't it? It is kind of funny. I went over to a guy's house and he had a real trout. And I was like, oh, nice. This is a real one.

Yeah, yeah. Because there's so many, like for people that don't know, like say if a guy catches like one of my neighbors is a big time bass fisherman and he just sent me, I'll pull it up for you because he's pretty hardcore and he just caught this, shout out to my friend Alan, he just caught this 13 pound bass. Wow, that's huge, man. Yeah, that's pretty nice right there.

Oh, yeah. So what he'll do is he gets all the measurements and the photos of that, and then he brings it to a company that basically makes him a plastic fish. Yeah. It's like my feeling is I would rather just have that photo of him. Yeah, just frame the picture up. Frame that picture on your wall, man, because he's a catch-and-release guy, so he lets the fish go. Yeah. But, like, yeah but like come on man why you have a plastic fake fish it's like if you had

your kids instead of a photo of your kid you had a plastic version of your kid with fucking goofy fake eyes that's so stupid why would you do that yeah i don't know man right to be honest i've even on uh you know uh other you know the species we're talking about hunting, I'm kind of over taxidermy on that too. You saw what I do. Yeah, I've seen you do. I learned that from Rinella. Rinella was my first mentor and he's like, I just do not like the eyeballs, the whole thing, the plastic. It's like, yeah, when I look at a mount, like a shoulder mount, I'm looking at this thing that's not really the animal. And sometimes it's not even the real cape.

It's someone else's cape. Because when I hunt, a lot of people know that I don't use European mounts, so they'll say, oh, would you like to donate your cape? I'm like, sure, yeah yeah let's preserve the cape so if someone needs a cape because like sometimes a hunter will fuck the cape up or they'll fall down a mountain or something like that yeah but i just don't get it it looks it's a that's a statue that's not the animal i shot yeah i get it like where you're you're recreating this image in your mind like that's what he looked like when he was coming through the trees. Yeah.

But don't you have a photo in your head? Yeah. No, I'm with you on it, man. And it's crazy because I do – like some of these taxidermists are pretty – they're so good at it. Amazing. They do – It's an art form. They do a phenomenal job. You know, I just don't want to maintain them anymore.

You know what I mean? Like maintain them and drag them around when I move. Right. And then my kids, when they inherit them, they're just going to throw them in the dump or something. Right, right, right. So it's kind of that mentality. That is a weird – like some people have trophy rooms in their house where their entire room is filled with these animals, like a sheep that's on fake rocks yeah looking around yeah

dude i'll admit when i when if i go somewhere and somebody has one of those i like walking around it with them yeah tell me tell me all the stories about all the hunts i just don't want one i just don't want to yeah i'm not interested in that i'm not interested in that but i think it's kind of dope but yeah it's just like you. You're not a hide guy. No. No bear hides? I have some bear hides. They're just not here.

They're at my house. They're actually at my house in California. If I did ever shoot a brown bear, I'd mount that motherfucker. Oh, yeah. Especially if it was a big one, like a Kodiak bear. I would want that mounted. Because that's like, come on, man. Yeah, yeah. My brother's got one in his like financial office which nowadays is like totally like you're

not not politically correct but when you walk in there they're gonna be they got a big interior bc well you want to yeah but fight off the bear market yeah yeah that's right yeah it's uh it's it's very controversial but it's you know it's controversial with people that don't understand it. Yeah. That's really what it is. And it's controversial with people that don't understand ecosystems. They don't understand, I mean, a lot of them actually eat meat. That is the craziest thing, that the people that don't eat meat, that don't like hunting.

Or that, excuse me, that eat meat, rather, and don't like hunting. Yeah. That's strange. You know, it's very strange to me. Well, I think a lot of the topics we're talking about, Joe, is just a reflection of this distance between the reality of being a human and the distance that we've put in between. Yeah.

I was having this discussion. You know, you could go, if you go behind any fancy steakhouse, like you go behind Gibson's in Chicago, or excuse me, Gibson's in Chicago, one of these like fancy steakhouses or somewhere in Manhattan, and if you went through the dumpster, you know, you would find like a bunch of half steaks, you know, like you'd find, you know, three quarters of a steak, half a steak. And to me, it's like, it's crazy to think about that. Probably a lot of people that are eating in that restaurant, they're, they're probably like against hunting, but they're willing to take,

you know, half a steak and throw it away. Yeah. I don't know. To me, that seems so wild to think because it's like – It's just ignorance. I mean they're against hunting, but they don't know what it is. They've never experienced it. Yeah. Or they have this version of it from movies. Yeah. Which is weird.

Sure. Because the movie version of Hunters is like from the movie Wolverine. Like the hunters are always the assholes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wolverine has to kick their ass. Dude, that's still the case in any show that – a kid's show. If a hunter shows up, he's like the dick. Isn't that weird that that's the case but it's not the case with fishermen?

Yeah. When someone's fishing, it's always a happy thing. Hi, fishing, just casting the fish. Isn't that interesting? I don't know why that is, man. Especially fly fishing. That's a gentleman. Like, you never think of, like, a fly fisherman being an asshole.

Well, it's all catch and release. That's their argument, I guess. But it isn't always. No. You know? I mean, it's only catch and release in certain places. Yeah, certain. The catch and release thing is odd.

I don't really enjoy it. I mean, I've done it, but I'm always like, what are we doing? We're just fucking with these fish. We're just fucking with these fish, and we're trying to get this weird little charge out of catching them. You know what's wild, man? Since I sold my business, Joe been i literally go fishing with my kids almost every other day so are you retired now yeah well dude i don't i'm i'm taking some time yeah i'm working on well i'm taking some time off but i've actually been trying to crank on

the youtube deal you know and really really get that you put up some good really good content and very informative yeah no i appreciate it it's really good stuff so that's kind of like my focus and i got some ideas that i'm gonna continue to work on on that front but do you want some more coffee i know i'm good man i'm good i'll matter of fact i need to work on this a little bit probably cold as fuck by now well the thing is i was i was my wife actually warned me before coming on here she said don't drink a bunch of coffee because you talk too fast oh really oh that's funny she's giving you advice that's so funny it was good advice so i'll take it i'll take it from her that's but um but anyways man i lost my oh yeah i was telling you informative youtube stuff well yeah so i'm the the youtube stuff is one of my focuses but this kind of period

of time has given me some time to you know. I go fishing with my kids every other morning. Where are you living these days? I've been in Puerto Rico the last four or five months. I've got a brother who lives there. So I've been down there working on my stuff. Puerto Rico, huh? Yeah. Wow.

I know some people that live down there. It's a good place to avoid taxes. For some folks. But it's also, you know, my time spent there, Joe, it actually, Puerto Rico is an interesting place. Like the whole like legal structure of the place is interesting. But actually from like an outdoorsman perspective it has like all this to me at least like all this untapped stuff but the problem is i'm like uh i'm like that from that one kids cartoon like where the dog like sees a squirrel it's like squirrel with outdoor stuff

i'm like that man so i'm like oh tarpon fish is die and then a spearfish and so i tend to get like you know drawn every way but when i'm there i, dude, there's so many cool outdoor stuff to do there. I mean, I have a home there, but we were only going to stay there a couple months. We homeschooled our kids, and now we've been there for, like, six months. You know, just kidding. But anyways, back to the fishing part of it, man. I didn't mean to get sidetracked. What's crazy with the catch and release thing like my little boy he he

cannot believe that we would release anything like his because it's not normal yeah he's like he like yeah yeah he looks at like your reaction to people's his reaction to like i mean a lot of time and we keep a lot of them you know little snappers and stuff they they cook them they like to do the whole process but he cannot believe man like i'm like all right we got to turn this one back and he's like why you know what are you talking about dad he's good and then he tries to negotiate with me and he's like like right before i put it back he'll be like dad can we use it for bait that's hilarious that's hilarious well i think it's just normal human instincts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, well, we're doing this. What is the point? Yeah. What are we out here for? Are you just fucking with these fish? Yeah. Which is basically what fly fishermen are doing. Right.

The barbless hooks. They're just out there fucking with fish. Dude, I've heard you talk about it on this podcast, man. They're all after that feeling. Mm-hmm. You know, there's that like jiggle from a- Primal. Primal feeling. Yeah. Jiggle from a podcast, man. They're all after that feeling. You know, there's that like jiggle from a fish, man. If you could sneak up on people and shoot them with a suction cup, people would do it.

Probably. Yeah. If you knew you could just like, I got you, bitch. And no one gets hurt. That's what people like. Do you feel like you get that from that? do you feel like the feeling like when a bull comes in when you're archery hunting or you make a good archery shot on a bull elk do you feel like you get a similar feeling than you do like when you're like a related feeling when you're fishing and yeah it's a very minor version of the bull elk feeling when you're fishing yeah when you're fishing you get a who was this night oh i got one i one. I got one. I got one. Got a good one. It's fun. It's very exciting. I love fishing with my kids because I love that they can catch something and then they can cook it. And, you know, we can, we can eat something that they got. Like, um, my daughter caught a Wahoo when we were in Hawaii. It was like one of the first times she ever caught like a really good size fish. She's caught at the time um this was like quite a few years back when she was um I guess she was probably

like five or six she had caught like a couple of like little snappers and stuff like that like deep sea fishing just dropping a line down way low but this was the first like really good size fish she caught she was so proud and so when we were eating, we were like, thank you for catching this. You caught our dinner. She's like, all you people are eating because of me. It was fun. It's exciting. Yeah, of course.

You get that little charge out of catching a fish. But a bull elk is that times 10, times 100, times 1,000. It's not even – Derek Wolf said it best. He was talking about sacking Tom Brady. He's like, it's not even close. He's like, sacking Tom Brady is fun. Don't get me wrong. But it's not even close to shooting a bull elk.

And I'm like, I'm so glad he said that because that's how I feel about – people say – they ask me, God, you do so many exciting things. You do stand-up. You host the UFC. All these different things you've done in your life. You used to fight. What's the most exciting? I'm like, bowhunting elk is about as heart-pounding and as exciting as possible.

When you're hiding behind a tree and you're at full draw and you see the tips of those antlers moving through the brush and you know he's about to make it into the opening. Yeah. And you're like, holy shit. And you're at full draw just sitting there. And then he comes in there and then the arrow releases and you – I use Illuminok, so you see –

You can see it. Nocturnal. You see that green nock just sending it right through the golden triangle. Oh, yeah. Yes! It's the greatest feeling in golden triangle. You're like, yes! It's the greatest feeling in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And knowing that you're going to eat that thing,

and the smell of the fucking burning wood and the searing meat. I could smell it right now. It's the best food in the world, too. I mean, I prefer it over everything. Elk. Yeah, elk is my favorite i really like neil guy i shot a neil guy recently is very good very good but um elk is the best i think it's the best um axis is pretty goddamn good too axis yeah have you had axis yeah you

know i had it uh oh the maui venison guys, they sent it to me. What's it called? Maui Nui? Maui Nui, yeah. Is that it? Yeah. I think Maui Nui venison. Something like that.

I'm sorry if I'm butchering it. Peter Atit is one of the owners of that. We should probably say the name of it right. Is that what it's right? Is it Maui Nui? That is it. That's a great system that they have. So you can buy wild, actual wild game from Maui, and it actually helps. There it is, Maui Nui.

It actually, they've sent me a bunch of it. They have really good bone broth too. But the beautiful thing about it is that it's, they need to get rid of these. It's an invasive species, and they have so many of them. Yeah. So it helps. It helps everybody. It helps the environment of Mau many of them. Yeah. So it helps. It helps everybody. It helps the environment of Maui.

Sure. And it's fantastic food. I interviewed, I believe his name's Jake, who runs it. I interviewed him on Jay Scott's podcast, actually. And, dude, it's amazing to hear the rundown of, like, the process of how they kill them. You know, because they have, like, a, they have, like, a, I don't, I i don't mean i don't want to get like the the depths of it because i'll butcher it but if i recall you know they essentially go in the field and they have a mobile like you know usda approved system that they they put it through it's pretty crazy man like i talked to him about

just like the the marksmanship component that went into it because they have to kill them all by hitting them in the skull cap even though they're wild deer you know but part of the whole the whole arrangement yeah they have to die instantly yeah they have to die instantly and it's it's pretty amazing what round are they using dude i want to say i want to say he's hit.308. Okay. And so are they shooting him at night? Yeah. So they shoot him at night, and they use thermals. But my understanding is they can't use suppressors. Why?

Because of Hawaii gun laws, I believe. Oh, God. That's so dumb. Which is like wild, man. That's so dumb. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. The suppressor thing is so dumb. is like wild man that's so dumb yeah it doesn't make any the suppressor thing is so dumb

it's like people watch too many James Bond movies I know cause they're I mean they're awesome suppressors are great

they protect your fucking ears you know and it's the round's still just as lethal yeah and as long as you

zero it in right it's still just as accurate I loved him I loved him as a guide because you know muzzle brakes became so popular in the last, like, 15 years.

And they do. They take out so much recoil. But. But, man, dude, if you get a guy, if you forget one time to have your ears covered. Yeah, a buddy of mine lost his hearing because the hunter threw the rifle up to take an offhand shot and he was. He was up by the muzzle yeah he was off to the side of it and he lost his hearing yeah his hearing aids now yeah it takes one time yeah one crazy yeah it is interesting how it works though isn't it you know that this just having

that that compensator at the end of the rifle barrel sure releases all the gases out the sides and all the sound and actually kicks less oh yeah and yeah, and it takes a ton. I mean a lot of these big difference Yeah, particularly these like light rifles guys are shooting on these up doing these mountain hunts and stuff. I mean you can't hardly You can't hardly shoot them accurately over time unless you suck a bunch of the recoil out of them Because you just get so people get so you know, they just train themselves so well. Yeah. But, you know, can you get some of that out with like good training? Yeah.

I think like, like the guy you talked to. Joel Turner. Yeah. I think, I think guys, if they really embrace that system, that system and go through the nitty gritty of it, they can. system and go through the nitty gritty of it, they can. When you were guiding, was like archery hunting, was that like the most sketchy? Like, hey man, like let me see you shoot.

You know? Because there's so many people I think that pick up their bow like two weeks before elk season and shoot it 20 yards a few times. Like, oh, we're good. Yeah. You know, I mean, outside of, I don't want to just pick on archery in this respect. I mean, I think it goes for all hunting. I think if you're not exposed to, you know, I guess, you know, hunting slash, like, death a lot, you don't realize that, how messy it can get.

You know what I mean? And that goes for guns and archery equipment. get you know what i mean and that goes for guns and and archery equipment and uh yeah if i was being honest i i i would rather guide a guy with a gun you know just because just because the all the situations over and you know i mean i've guided a lot i had a lot of guides working for me so it's a it's a lot of numbers. It's not like everyday occurrence. But you get into those situations where something gets hurt. And I'm talking like, you know, you could be following stuff for days, you know, trying to get it killed. And, you know, once you expose that enough, you become like, you you want everything to be right you know what i

mean and the reality is it keeps if you've as a hunter it keeps you from taking sketchy shots yeah yeah where people just hope it works out yeah it's one thing joel turner talks about it's like you should never hope a shot works out you should be sure like when you are releasing that arrow like he's so precise in his language right when you are releasing that arrow, like he's so precise in his language. Right. When you're releasing that arrow, you absolutely know that arrow is going to hit its mark. Yeah. Because you've trained for it.

The thing about all of it is that until you experience it, you really don't know. It's one of those things where people think they can keep it together. No. It's one of those things where people think they can keep it together. I kind of equate it to like a fight because a lot of people think like, oh, man, if I get in a fight, don't worry about me, bro. I know how to fight. But the reality is like in an actual physical confrontation, if you don't have any experience in it, you're going to freak out. Your heart rate is going to go through the roof. You're going to gas out almost instantly. You're going to gas out almost instantly.

You're going to full panic. You're going to have tunnel vision. It's like you need to experience that just to understand what it is and to say that you can be calm in that situation. Yeah, and like you were talking about the heart thump in these situations. I mean, it'll feel like your heart's going to blow out your chest. And I've guided people who, you know, adults, you know, they seem like competent guys, and there's so much pressure around a shot opportunity, or at least they're manifesting it around them.

Like, you know, you've been in the mountains. You've been, you know, you're on a on a backpack you know sheep hunt or something for six seven days and if there's a bunch of money involved a bunch of time involved and then the guy gets a shot opportunity and it's there's so much pressure and there's like at that moment and then boom the gun goes off and i always the first question i always ask because it tells me a whole lot about you know what probably happened i always ask a hunter how did it feel you know that's my first question to a hunter after he shoots because that'll tell me a lot about you know what what's going on and i can several times i've had a guy go i wish i wouldn't

have shot and i'm like why like why did you shoot and the only thing i can anxiety yeah it's just panic get it over with yeah and it's crazy It's like, why did you shoot? Well, do you ever have a conversation with them before that about that? And tell them like, do not shoot unless you're ready. There's going to be a thing you do. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause, cause my deal is like, and this is a very basic way to look at it. And I'm sure Joel would have a more sophisticated way for people to have time to go through the process but I always tell guys with rifle hunting if you don't work the first the primary thing you have to do is you have to get a good rest in the mount yes you know with right that's like key that's the beauty of rifle hunting over bow hunting yeah is that with a good

rest and if you're prone in particular like god, God, I'm reasonably certain I'm going to fucking hit that animal every time. Yeah. And that's what in the discussion I have is like, look, first thing we're going to do is going to get a good rest. And then if you cannot keep the crosshairs within a defined vital area that we're talking about. Don't take the shot. You tell me and we're going to move your rest, get you a better rest, adjust your rest, maybe go from your pack back to your bipod, something like that, or we're going to get closer, but please do not shoot. And a lot of that, some of that's practical. You know

what I mean? Like I don't want to track my ass around looking for those, those Rams now that they're hauling ass over, you know, two rams know it's also for the experience yeah the person that you're doing it with right but it's also but it's also i don't want one to get hurt and it to go you know it to become you know a negative experience for everybody you know the animal hunting to me is a fascinating thing because it's these weird rich guys that spend so much money and to people for people that don't know, I was trying to explain this to someone the other day, and they were incredulant. They're like, what?

I go, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars for these governor tax. And they were going, shut the fuck up. I go, yeah, hundreds of thousands of dollars people spend to go and just hunt a bighorn sheep. Yeah. I mean, my take on it, I've guided quite a few of the hunts. And so one thing about it is it's actually a fairly small community of, like, sheep hunters.

There's actually not that many of them. But the thing about it is as a wildlife resource, they're also not all that abundant so I think if I was being totally honest I would say that part of the whole you know the whole like chic of the whole thing is just that it's scarce not everybody can have it right because you know a sheep hunt a Rocky Mountain bighorn hunt is not that different than a high country mule deer hunt in a lot of ways you know but the and obviously just there's a species difference right well the alaska ones are pretty wild though yeah yeah like the doll the doll sheep yeah yeah people are literally risking their lives oh yeah sure that's the species where people die the most right they fall off cliffs so it might be

by volume in terms of my experience mountain goat hunting is the worst by far same kind of a situation though yeah but the thing is you know joe mountain goats they they where the sheep stop mountain goats start you know what i mean dude i cannot tell you how many times i've sat on goats just and been like we're not there's no way we're going to kill them there because there's no way we'll get him You know what I mean? And then and then in house actually talking to one of my guides About a week ago about it and he's like cliff You know There's like there's three times that I felt like there's a chance of me dying in my lifetime and two of them when I was guiding

mountain goats for you It's just they live in the steepestest you can imagine man yeah and i love them dude they're cool they are cool they're way cool the way they can move off on insanely steep ledges blow your mind i just like do they they have like flexible hooves like yeah so they have a grip yeah their their foot it's a it wider. There they go. Look at them. Look at this motherfucker. Yeah. These, I believe.

That's not mountain goats. I think that's a type of ibex. Ibex, yeah. But same stuff, dude. But look at that. Yeah. I mean, what in the fuck is happening here? Like, if I saw a man doing that, I'd be like, dude, get down. Please don't do this.

Don't fucking do it. Like, this thing just knows how to do it. Yeah. But why is it not scared of heights like what what has genetic yeah there's that's a mountain goat mountain goats are beautiful dude they're stunning man they're so beautiful that that look at that that guy's like holding it with his face that's so crazy that they do that. Yeah. That they literally walk up the side of a fucking... That looks like a dam. That one might be fake. Oh, hi. How are you doing?

What's going on? Just chilling over here. See if you can find the white mountain goats. Yeah, there's a bunch of pictures there. They're so beautiful, man. Look at that photo. Go back to that photo you just had. Look at that photo.

That's so beautiful. Oh, yeah. They're way cool, man. How delicious are they they good uh they're not my favorite game meat but they're they're pretty good that's where i'm out yeah yeah yeah i'm only interested in hunting things that i really want to eat yeah you're yeah the primary i shot a javelina recently and i had it converted into chorizo i was going going to try it this morning, but I got up late. I never tried it, but I haven't heard great things, man. Well, the guys at the, at the ranch that I'm at say, if you turn it into chorizo, it's actually very good. It's pretty good. Yeah. We'll say we're going to find out tomorrow because it was supposed to be my breakfast this

morning, but I got up late. Oh, I gotcha. Yeah. But no mountain goats are, I mean, they're, they're, I wouldn't, I just, they're not going to rank up with like elk to me, you know. Yeah. So that's why I'm out. Yeah. Unless they run out of elk, which may happen in Colorado. Yeah. Who knows?

Yeah. Well, Colorado has more elk than I think any other state. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. By quite a bit. And in terms of hunting opportunity, because they have so much over-the-counter stuff,

which is starting to change a little bit, it's way more than other states. For now. Yeah, exactly. Dude, actually, back to the... Oh! Yeah. Back to what we were talking about on that, man,

because I don't think i did a great job of explaining myself the yellowstone deal in that video what i was getting at joe is that people don't realize that when yellowstone originally had a problem with the elk they were sending all these elk out as transplants so that was a way to actually control the population in yellowstone i see and then the the r in the sixties, they were actually shooting them too. They, you know, they were shooting them to suppress the population. And, uh, they actually, uh, what happened in the early sixties, they had like massive controversy on the park.

And this is all documented. I'm, I'm a nerd. So I've read the history of it but um they wanted to have a hunt on the park to to do exactly what this video claims the wolves did in the 90s there was a lot of discussion in the 60s of having you know you know like a draw or whatever and getting a bunch of hunters on the park to solve the range issue because see what happened was they quit transplanting the elk off of it because everywhere you know they didn't need to nobody wanted the elk so the elk started to to do some damage to the range there so one of the one of the proposals was to have a hunt on in yellowstone you know maybe just a temporary one whatever to dissipate

the elk and one of the main reasons it didn't happen is that the park officials, and then I know there's some push from Washington, is they didn't want the elk to not be habituated to people. In the 60s, it's documented that one of the reasons they didn't have hunters in there is they wanted the elk to be comfortable with people. Wow. So to me me and people listening may not find this interesting but to me it's like a total bastardization of history right it's like

look you're saying that the wolves did what they did in yellowstone and yeah they probably you know they did help because there was way too many wolves or way too many elk particularly in those valleys and stuff and they were hurting the range. But saying that it was attempted to do it with human intervention and it failed is a total lie, man. Well, also, there's a lot of value in taking those elk from there and, like, moving them to Kentucky and Pennsylvania and all those places where they've repopulated elk. Because elk used to be in basically every state, right? Right. In the plains. What do you think about that American Prairie Reserve situation?

I'm not super familiar with it, but my understanding is it's basically trying to – are they directly buying up a bunch of private land? They're doing block management on it. They're buying up all this land and they want to convert it into this – but they're going to allow hunting on it. Yeah, I mean – They're going to turn it into this wild area with bison and pronghorn and everything. It's like they have this design to sort of rewild that, but in a way with, you know, undulates. Yeah. I mean, I think all that stuff to me is a good idea as long as that we rewild it and it makes sense in a way that, you know, hunters or people can still utilize it, you know.

Yes. I don't think – it's so weird, Joe, because I don't – I think sometimes we forget that it's not like we're – well, maybe – who knows? But it's not like we're aliens. Like, we're part of the ecosystem too, man. Yes. You know? We are. But we don't think of ourselves as – because we're so far removed.

We're so smart. We want to pretend that we're different. Yeah, yeah. That we shouldn't kill. We want to kill every day. Dude, that's – It's strange. That's – isn't that the crazy thing? Like the steak in the garbage. Yeah, yeah. That we shouldn't kill. We want to kill every day. Dude, that's, that's, isn't that the crazy thing?

Like the steak in the garbage. Yeah, dude. But like everybody thinks that, oh, cause Joe Rogan, here's, there's a picture of him with a dead elk that somehow that's different than somebody who indirectly still just lives their life and consumes, right? Yeah. It's just ignorance. It's all it is.

It's like I would tell those people, hey, come hunting with me, but I don't want them to. Imagine if you're at full draw and they're like, get away! Yeah, that would not be... That's a year worth of meat to me, you fucking idiot. That would not be good. Yeah, worth of meat to me you fucking idiot not not be good yeah but

it's it's just a lack of understanding and it's so difficult to truly understand unless you've experienced it you know i'm very grateful that steve ranella took me out the first time you know i did it with my friend brian callan from meat eater we went mule deer hunting yeah and it was so much harder than i ever thought it was going to be. And it was so much more interesting than I thought it was going to be. And then also there's a thing that ignites inside of you very similar to the fishing thing where you catch a fish. Like, ooh, there's a thing when you're stalking an animal that your brain goes, oh, yeah, I know what this is. Yeah, yeah.

We've done this before. Sure. Like this is – We've done this before. There's like a pathway in the mind that exists for that. Like this is how you acquire meat. And there's an excitement to it because you're going to be able to feed your family. So when I brought that meat back home and I was cooking it and I fed my family with this deer that I ate, well, I had decided that day. Like I remember I was cooking with Ronella. we were eating the mule deer like over the fire and uh and we were talking about i said i'm doing this

forever yeah i'm doing this now sure this is my new thing yeah i'm like i'm doing and he was laughing yeah yeah he loved it he loved it that he converted me because callan never really got converted he kind of he'll hunt me, and he'll hunt occasionally. But I fucking block off time. Yeah, you got focused on it. I'm hunting. Yeah. And it's like, that's a primary part of my diet.

I eat deer meat all the time. When I did the UFC last weekend, when Jon Jones fought, Daniel Cormier, who's my commentator next to me, and he's a good friend of mine. I always would bring him snacks because I could bring him – there's this company called Carnivore Snacks, and they make these delicious snacks. So I'll bring him beef jerky, and this time I brought him deer sausage. And he's like, man, I can't eat deer because I ate bad deer once, and I eat deer, I get sick. I go, just try a little piece of this summer sausage. Just try. He's like, man, I can't eat deer because I ate bad deer once and I eat deer, I get sick. I go, just try

a little piece of this summer sausage. Just try. He's like, oh shit, this is good. So he started talking about it on the air. He's like, Joe's got me eating deer sausage. So in the middle of one of the fights, he's talking about me feeding him deer sausage. Sure. Well, dude, I can

tell you in my business, Joe, I mean, I'm sure you know this, but you're talking about your little inner circle. You actually created like a trend within hunting. it would always be kind of the same story. Like they're new, they're, they're 35 years old and they're into, you know, maybe they're jujitsu guys or something and, and just talking to them, having a conversation with them, but they want to come do their first elk hunt. And I like, and I like, and I would always ask like, dude, like what got you into it is always you, man. Like you started like this mega trend. And it was kind of like, I could almost identify my clients. I was like,

oh yeah. Like I know that those guys, they probably got their influence or their motivation from you. So it's pretty wild to see. Well, I feel like the more people that get into it, there's a lot of people that don't like that. They don't like that the trailheads are full. They don't like that there's a lot of people out there wandering around. But you can't think like that. You can't think like that. Those are allies.

You need those people. You need more people that understand what it is. And to think differently, I think, is very selfish and very stupid and foolhardy. I think you have to think about the small amount of people that hunt. I don't even know. What is the percentage of Americans who hunt regularly? Oh, that's small. Let's guess.

I want to say it's 3%. I don't even think it's 3%. I'm going to guess it's less than 3% who hunt regularly. I mean, I don't know what regularly is. It's probably different metrics that we could apply. But it's very small. Yeah. And I do understand.

What does it say here? 15 million licenses? 15 million hunting licenses were issued to the U.S. population that year. So 4.6%. Yeah, but you're probably right. I bet you that less than half of them really hunt regularly. You know what I mean? Regularly.

But that's still. Okay, 4.6% of the U.S. population was issued a hunting license that year. And that's 2020. I think I'm responsible for 1%. Yeah, I bet you are, man. Now, I can tell you this. From individuals that started hunting that are, you know, older than 25 and didn't have, like, a father that hunted or a family that hunted,

you're responsible for way more than 1% of them, man. That's hilarious. But, listen, if those people can do it and be successful, they'll experience what I've experienced. Oh, yeah. And there's also the argument like, oh, you're wealthy. You can experience things differently. You get to go places other people can't go.

Yeah, that's true. So I don't know what to tell you. Will you want me to not be wealthy? Like, shut the fuck up. Just stop making excuses. It's not really relevant. You know what I mean? It's not relevant.

And also, there's plenty of opportunities for people that aren't wealthy. Well, dude, that's the thing, man. If you're in the U.S. from a hunting perspective, regardless of, like, your economic situation, you got the best opportunities on the hunting front. There's nothing like it. There's nothing like it in the rest of the world. I mean, the New Zealanders got some great opportunities too. It's just a little bit different.

But here, it's like, I mean, it's, like you said, like, you know, it's probably the most economical hunting situation I think there is in the world if you're an American. Yeah. Texas is not the best. Texas is, it's great if you have money because there's all these private ranches, but Texas is like 90-something percent private land.

Right. And neighborhoods with deer. Yeah. If you're a jackass. It's like I keep an eye on the deer in my neighborhood in case shit goes down. Oh, yeah. Because there's so many of them. They're fucking everywhere, man.

They're everywhere. Because mountain lions out here are basically like coyotes. You see a mountain lion, you just shoot it. Right. Which is interesting. Yeah, yeah. see a mountain lion, you just shoot it. Right. Which is interesting. It's coming from California where you go to jail. Yeah, different way they manage them. This is better.

Yeah. Do you have any interest in hunting lions? I do. Yeah. I'd like to eat one of them. Dude, you talk about the heart thump. Oh, yeah. I'm sure.

When I got into hunting them,e like when you know you know dogs got dogs have one treed or in a cave or something like that and you're and you're making your way up there and you it'll make your heart it'll make your heart blow out of your i could imagine and even you know i i love going and just taking pictures of them like i got a bunch of pictures on my phone of just me me like selfies just me being a jackass with a lion up here in the tree, you know, or whatever. The thing that's interesting to me is also the pushback on the dogs. And I get that. I really do get that, especially as someone who loves dogs because sometimes the dogs die.

Yeah. But the fairness aspect of it is which is interesting and that's where um i think education is very important and people understanding especially from someone who's being honest and objective about it like i could absolutely understand why someone would say it is not fair to hunt mountain lions with dogs but i will tell you that if you want to shoot a mountain lion, you're not going to unless you use dogs. Yeah. Or unless you hunt over a dead animal that they've killed. You could find it and locate it.

If you think you're going to stalk a mountain lion, you're going to go find them and stalk them. Your odds of success are so low. Right. Like you could do it for years and never see one. Right. Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it's just an effectiveness thing. Right. The dogs are the in terms that will walk tracks, walk tracks out of lions, like in the snow. You know, they're just trying to find really fresh tracks, and then they'll walk them out.

And I know a couple guys who have killed lions that way, but, you know, you're talking, it's a very small subset of lion hunting. It's not the best way to manage their population. Right. Yeah. Well, that's what's bizarre about California is they don't manage their populations with hunters. They bring in mercenaries.

Yeah. It's so crazy. People don't understand. Like, they kill the same amount of lions every year. It's so foolish. It's a wild thing. It seems like such a waste. Well, first of all, people, let's explain it to people.

Well, first of all, people, let's explain it to people. Because of the Pittman-Robertson Act, there's a certain percentage of hunting licenses, ammunition, all that stuff. What is it? What percentage of it? Is it 10%? I can't remember what the tax is. It goes to wildlife conservation. It goes to habitat preservation.

It goes to taking care of, like, rangers. It's like it takes care of, it's a beautiful situation. It's one of the best situations in terms of like the way it's managed. It's really beautiful. If you have a state like California that doesn't allow mountain lion hunting, you go, oh, well, that's good. We need to preserve the mountain lion population.

Incorrect. They kill the same amount of mountain lions. They kill them though with mercenaries. So they bring in some guy who's a mountain lion hunter and he uses dogs and he finds of mountain lions. Right. They killed them, though, with mercenaries. So they bring in some guy who's a mountain lion hunter, and he uses dogs, and he finds these mountain lions that are troubled mountain lions, and they wind up killing the same number of them. Yeah, yeah. But now the state pays this guy to go do it, instead of you paying the state.

Right. So instead of the Pittman-Robertson Act applying, where all this money now, where all these people apply for tags, all these people get tags, they go mountain lion hunting and that all that goes towards conservation. Yeah. So you're talking about the direct tag revenue in Pittman. Pittman-Robertson is the tax on like guns and stuff like that. But all that stuff. Yeah. All that stuff goes in. And it's crazy. And the thing is, this has come up in this wolf thing in Colorado a ton. I've seen public comment. Public comments, well, we need to have, if there is ever lethal control, it needs to be done by professionals, right? Hilarious.

What are you talking about? Yeah, who are these professionals? Are you going to? Yeah, by the way, are there any? Yeah, well – What have they been doing all these years? These pro wolf hunters where you can't hunt wolves? Yeah, that's the thing that's so funny. I guarantee you the guys doing the lion – dealing with lions that are trouble in California, they're hounds guys.

They're just – they're guys that grew up lion hunting. Yeah. And I'm sure he's a, he's just like into lion hunting. And here's what's the fucked up part. When there was a recent thing in the Bay area where they did an analysis of the contents of their stomach. Yeah. It's 50% domestic pets. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. Once they figure it out. Half of their diet is your dog. I talked to a guy's son who was involved in a very long-term study of lions.

And he was a hound's man, and he followed like the same toms year after year. Tom's just a male, the term for a male lion. And what they found is that what he found and observed is whatever that lion's mom taught him to kill is usually what they would focus on, which is wild to think about. And I think some of these, you know, when lions are pushed up against human populations, their moms start to, it's like passed down generationally. Like we're going to kill pets or whatever. But as it applies to, you know, in more normal situations, he told me that he would follow a tom that they treat and call their like year after year. And that tom would only kill bull elk. Like he would walk through, you know, tons of mule deer and only kill bull elk.

Like just kill after kill, you know, for years would just be a bull elk and he might, you know, whatever. And then there'd be weird ones. He said like they'd be following lions and they'd find, you know, a cat that only killed coyotes. Wow. You know, and maybe made some exceptions sometimes, but generally knew how to kill it and, you know, they'd figure that out. Kind of makes sense though. Wow. You know, or, you know, and maybe, maybe made some exceptions sometimes, but generally knew how to kill it. And, you know, they figured that out. Kind of makes sense though. Yeah. Yeah. They're just mom just shows them, shows them the deal. Cause man, they're, they're moms. I mean, I have pictures from, from outfitting, from cameras and, and stuff like that, where you'd see these

female lions with two kittens. And if I showed them to you, you're like, dude, that's not, that's not, those aren't baby lions. It's like a pride of mountain lions because they keep them with them. They keep their kittens with them for a couple years sometimes where they're big. Wow. So I think they learn from their mom or whatever. Dude, they're fascinating. They're amazing.

Freaking cool. Man, I feel the same way I feel about wolves. I'm so glad they exist. Oh, yeah. But I don the same way I feel about wolves. I'm so glad they exist. Oh, yeah. But I don't want to be surrounded by them. Yeah. Well, dude, and the thing is, is like I get what a lot of people are going to say about the wolves thing. They're going to be like, well, Cliff, Joe, you guys are being dicks because really what you want is you just want more animals to hunt.

And you want to suppress the wolf population because of that. And, yeah, part of it is that, at least speaking for myself. Part of it is that. Yeah, every hunter would say that. Yeah, part of it is that. You want more opportunities. But there's the other point too, man, that you said, Joe, with just if you're being rational about the economics and you assume, like take Colorado, you just assume,

hey, this ecosystem, there's a lot of people living here. There's a lot of other activities that affect the ecosystem. We have to have a rational, you know, economic approach of how we're going to take care of these animals and manage them. The wolf deal, like I just did the rough math in my brain. And you take a wolf and a wolf's going to kill 10 to, I think it's like, I think the estimate is like 12 to 18 elk per wolf per year, right? And so I was doing the math, like your elk hunting in Colorado is basically the success rate on most of the units is, you know, 10 to 15%. It's fairly low. It's tough hunting, you know, in these, in their, I call them over-the-counter units.

And just so your listers know, that just means you can go buy a tag. You don't have to put it in a drawer. Yeah, you just go to a sporting goods store. It's not rationed. You just put it in a tag. So anyways, you got 15% success rate. So that means if one wolf, just what he eats per year, he's going to kill 15 elk. That takes 100 tags that they can't sell, right?

Because if you if you calculate in this you know the success rate right so a hundred tags I mean I'm guessing roughly you know Joe like the the the state's getting probably 300 bucks a tag right between like you know non-residents pay more than residents whatever but it's like 300 bucks a tag that means that that wolf is eating 30 grand a year worth of state worth of cpw revenue one wolf one wolf yeah you know and that it's wild man it's wild to think about it that way about revenue you know but it's also to think the thing that gets me more than that even is the domestic animals is um cattle sheep oh the livestock these these people

that are that are running livestock like they're fucked yeah well you're gonna you're gonna have to deal with a whole new situation yeah it's gonna be a massive pain in their ass now they are they are gonna get compensated you know they will get compensated, uh, to the extent that they can prove it. And there's a whole system that's being worked out. So they'll get compensated for, you know, livestock that is killed by wolves. I have a photo, Jamie, see if you can find, um, that photo that I put up on Instagram when I was hunting with my friend Mike Hawkridge and Ben O'Brien up in B.C. where these wolves, we had found this moose calf right after these wolves had torn it to shreds. Yeah.

And it was amazing because there was hair everywhere. Oh, yeah. And that was the thing that I didn't anticipate. I was like, oh like oh wow this is weird yeah it's fucking hair everywhere i thought you'd just see like bones and the they would chew the meat oh yeah i was like oh i didn't even think about the hair they tear like tufts of it off yeah yeah oh yeah and it's just like just hair scattered everywhere and then these bones that were just stripped down by these wolves.

And we had gotten there just very shortly after it had happened. Maybe it happened the morning of or the night before. Yeah, and they just get after it and just clean it. And they do that every fucking day. Oh, yeah, man. Every day. They're constantly doing it, and they love it. Yeah. And it's exciting.

And they're fucking mean to each other, too. That's the other thing. All you tree huggers. Oh, yeah, yeah. You need to watch what they do to the beta males. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They tear them apart. It would be a rough, rough existence being a guy down the totem pole a little bit in one of those packs.

Yeah. You're starving plus getting your ass kicked every time. Yeah, they're fucking tearing apart your hamstrings. Yeah, it's like they're ruthless animals, man. That's a literal dog-eat-dog world. Survivors, man. But imagine how good they get at it. And, you know, they have all these tactics and stuff.

I don't know how much of it's true or proven, but I've been with guys in British Columbia. They say they use the roads, the wolves use the roads to kill moose. You know, like they'll— Columbia, they say they use the roads. The wolves use the roads to kill moose. You get in areas in British Columbia that used to be real remote and then they put in logging and there's a bunch of logging infrastructure.

Can't find it? I want to say it's from... It's Mike Hawkridge's outfitting. Shout out to Mike. In British Columbia. That was the first time, and actually the only time I ever hunted moose.

Oh, that's a cool picture right there. Eat what you kill. I found that picture. I found the moose. Yeah, that's the moose. That's really fast. Let me try the moose. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's the moose. Yeah, that's – It moves up really fast. That's –

Let me try the moose. But there's an image of the – that was on my Instagram of the moose calf that we found just covered in hair. It's pretty fucking cool. Yeah. I could probably find it on my phone if we can't find it. But it's – I know what you're talking about though where they get the the it i were like the tufts of hair all everywhere it's just you just don't until you see it you're

like oh this is happening constantly yeah like they're just a cleanup crew just burning through the forest trying to find these animals like scanning scanning there's one let's move circle around them you guys get in front. We'll get to the sides. Cut them off. Well, that's what I was talking about. And I don't know for sure this is proven or true or whatever, but the guys say that the tracks are like this.

These wolves will get on the logging road, and the main pack will work the logging road because it's easier in the snow. There's no downfall and stuff. So they'll work the road, and then they'll basically cycle a couple wolves off the road. You know, often to, you know, they'll go out into the trees and try to pick up, you know, moose or whatever out there. And then that wolf will get tired and he'll come back to the logging road and then another one will go out. You know, pretty wild, huh?

I wonder how they coordinate that. And I wonder how they pick who does what. Yeah, probably instinct or, you know, I don't know. Because they're dogs. They're not capable of communicating with each other, I suppose. I wonder if they're communicating with pheromones or something. Maybe there's some way that we don't understand. It could be just instincts bred off of doing that so many times.

Yeah. It's just an unspoken language. What's crazy is fish do it too. Like you were talking about tarpon. You know, they do the same thing. Like you'll see them, they'll get around mullet and they herd them up, you know, into a bait ball. And I even notice in like marinas and stuff, they'll herd bait like back in a corner, you know. You see them in marinas, which is crazy.

Yeah. You ever seen there's videos of people dunking their hand in the water with a hot dog and a tarpon comes and grabs their arm? They get habituated to feeding. How weird. So they'll come to like filet tables where they're fed or, you know, places where they get fed, you know. That's so crazy. Yeah. Huge tarpon. Oh, yeah. Biting people's arms. That's so crazy. Yeah.

Huge tarpon. Oh, yeah. Biting people's arms. Yeah, yeah, pretty wild. It's nuts, man. But they do the same thing, like those tactics. And you know what I've learned to do? I'm going to sound like a total dork here,

but I've gotten really into throwing a cast net to catch bait. Oh, okay. You know? Like this is like – That's cool. I get infatuated with these things. So me and my little boy, like, every morning at sunrise, like, we're going to go catch bait to go fishing, you know? So what you realize is I get up at, I call them, like, my little glassing points, but they're literally, like, I mean, my house isn't a country club there, dude, so I'm,

like, cruising down on my golf cart with my cast net. Like, I'm the only guy in the country club that does this kind of shit, you know. But anyways, we go to my little glass spots where we can look, you know, down the marina. We can look on the ocean for birds or whatever working bait. But a lot of times how we find the bait is you can see the tarpon like kind of pushing them around, you know. Yeah. is you can see the tarpon kind of pushing them around. Really?

Yeah, well, and then they'll get that bait over on the side somewhere where I can throw a net on it. Yeah. Because if it's out there and it's dispersed, it's hard for me to net it. I went fishing in Mexico once, and I think they were Jack Cravalho

that had this swarm of them that were attacking bait fish. And I'm telling you, it was like half a football field. And you just cast into there and immediately catch something. But they had the bait balled up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was wild. And then they think they balled the bait up and they just whack, whack, whack.

Yeah, they just whack them. And you just cast into that chaos. Oh, yeah. And you were pulling fish out. Yeah, yeah. No, it is. It's cool how, I guess I didn't mean to get off track, Joe, but how are they communicating, man? Right.

How do they coordinate that? Because the shear cell seems like they are. Right, right. You know? But maybe it has to, you see the bait fish do that, too. Like, they're somehow knowing the turn. Yeah. Well, that's like birds.

Yeah. How are they doing that we don't we don't really understand how they don't slam into each other yeah like people bumping each other in the street right like how do birds flying in the sky yeah yeah yeah without any verbal communication it's amazing it's so fascinating it's like what we don't know about nature could fill volumes yeah dude that's that's why that's why I have no interest in the metaverse. Ha! Well, you're not alone, apparently.

It didn't really sell. I thought that was an interesting moment in technological history because when you got a guy who's as influential as Mark Zuckerberg and with a giant company like Facebook, they literally changed their name to Meta. Yeah. And then pumped these Oculus headsets out and like this is the next level thing. And Mark came here and he gave us a demonstration of this stuff.

We did some things like we did a fencing game. Oh, they're amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. You know what's the most incredible, dude, is the boxing game. Okay. Boxing games are so fun.

It's a great workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you put the headphones on and, you know, the headset is wireless, right? So it's just the thing that sets up to your head. And then you have these things in your hand. This is the Oculus. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you start the you're you're in there with a guy and

you hit him and you like you see his face snaps back sure and he hits you and you see like a white flash it's crazy and it's a really good workout oh yeah it's a really good workout and you could actually work on your skills you could actually oh it applies yeah okay i mean you're not hitting anything so it's not like hitting a bag or hitting a mitt. But you're bobbing and weaving. You're seeing punches coming your way. You're shifting and then countering. There's all this stuff that you do that is fantastic for cardio. It's a really – and it's fun.

It's like you're playing a game, but like we had it at the old studio, and I did a couple of rounds. I was like, dude, I am exhausted. And more importantly, like my feet hurt. It was like my feet were exhausted. Because you're pivoting, you're flexing your toes in a weird way. Because we were doing it on concrete, you know. Sure. I was like, this is wild.

This is a great workout. Dude, I've played the climbing game. Have you played it? No. Dude, the climbing game when you fall. So you're doing all these crazy like Yosemite climbs or whatever with the thing. My brother has that game. But when you fall.

When you fall, it's like. Oh, my God. Fuck that. You should do it, man. It'll take your breath away. Like. Well, they had one that we did where you're walking across a balance beam. Oh, okay.

Between two buildings. Probably similar. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Between two buildings. Probably similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, but yeah, the regular wild is way more interesting. Yeah, man. There's just as much adventure out there. But you have to be willing to actually go there.

Whereas you could just fucking put that headset on and all of a sudden you're on a mountain. What do you think? What do you think? I always contemplate this, man. Like, what do you think? What do you think? I always contemplate this, man. Like, what do you think stops people from, from doing it?

Like just going. Yeah. Time, lack of understanding, no mentors, you know, and just don't have the opportunity. Sure.

Then I think, I think hunting in particular is like that too, man. Like the, the learning curve is, I don't think steep's like the right term it's just intimidating you know with all the regulations and all that stuff it's hard for i think it's deep yeah it's deep and and then there's also like understanding the wind like

oh yeah there's so many things that aren't intuitive um uh like where do you start in terms of like buying glass yeah like you mean how many fucking podcasts are there like aaron snyder has like five of them yeah we're just breaking down the difference in glass quality on binos edge to edge detection and like fuck sure man dude in in the in the technology and hunting in like just the whole the whole gear component of hunting has grown so much. In a positive way in the sense that, you know, gear to go out and do a backpack hunt or something like that in, you know, pretty rough conditions where it's cold at night and all that, it's so much easier now. There's lightweight tents. Oh, yeah.

There's great layers. Like, this stuff's phenomenal. Phenomenal. But at the same time, there's part of me, and I guess for some reason this kind of theme has come out in my YouTube channel. I think the whole gear infatuation about it, it kind of – it intimidates people and it shouldn't. Like I hate that to be a barrier, right? Like you don't need to spend thousands of dollars or more than that to go on your first elk hunt. Right. You know what I mean?

Right. You can go do it. It might not be quite as comfortable or whatever, but you don't have to have all this stuff. I think what's one of the most intimidating thing is getting into archery. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, you can't just buy a bow and practice. Like, you have to go get it sized.

You have to put the peep in the right place right you have to get arrows that match the bow you have to get a scale that matches the rest that matches the sight like all of that is crazy like how do you do that on your own oh just run archers advantage software and like what yeah what are you talking like how many grains are your arrows i don't fucking know yeah like imagine the average person just with zero help yeah and not everywhere has a like a like here in texas you guys are spoiled because you got good archery shots oh we have a great one in austin shout out to archery country it's fucking phenomenal like guy like folks in there that know what they're doing i used to send my

shit up to the bow rack okay you know uh in in oregon springfield oregon yeah because it's like such a good place and that's where cam's from i was like well they'll just send my bow there and they'll send it to me that was easy and they get you set yeah or dudley i would send it to dudley and dudley would take care of stuff yeah it's like for the average person like that's not an option so what do you do it's like you have to go somewhere they have to measure your draw length. They have to find out what the peep height is, you know, and then you have to practice.

And so you need a place to practice. And a lot of people live in apartments. So how the fuck am I going to practice? Right, yeah, yeah. Like, where do you go? There's a lot. A lot. Yeah, I mean, I guess that answers the question, Joe.

It's like you almost have to, in a lot of ways, if you get really into it, you almost have to, like, shift your lifestyle. Yeah. I mean, I guess that answers the question, Joe. You almost have to, in a lot of ways, if you get really into it, you almost have to shift your lifestyle. Yeah. You know what I mean? Well, I most certainly changed my lifestyle. When I got into it, I just decided that was going to be something I'm doing every year. Yeah. So, okay, now I have this new thing. But for me, it's an amazing reset like there's my life is filled with so much

pressure and stress of a different variety that's odd that that's the most pressure the most stress but it's also the most relaxing yeah and the most it is like just being in the woods no cell phone service no nothing just stalking and and just hiking the mountains and also knowing that i have to be an amazing cardio shape sure like when i'm working out in fucking february i'm literally thinking while i'm working out in february the more i push the less tired i'm going to be in september yeah it's crazy yeah, that's cool, man. It, I mean, it's cool. And like, you know, a hobby basically can change, change somebody's life. You know what I mean? You can obsess with it and, and there's other things that do that. I think it enriches your life.

I really do because I think, uh, complex, difficult things that are very rewarding. And I don't think, I don't think there's very many things that are as rewarding as hunting because you're actually getting food from it and actually feed family and friends and you feed yourself. And it's so nutritious and so much better for you than any other kind of food that I think that it's one of the most rewarding, difficult things. And I think the more difficult things that a person does on purpose that are rewarding, you know, I'm not talking about like life struggle. I'm talking like choosing to do things, whether it's workouts or tasks or problems you're

trying to solve on purpose. Those are very valuable to your overall resiliency as a person. Right. And I think that that is something that I've really gotten from hunting. Sure. Like every time you do another one, it becomes easier to take. Right. And I think that that is something that I've really gotten from hunting. Sure. And like every time you do another one, it becomes easier to take it. Yes. And there's lessons that I learn from each individual hunt.

You know, there's things like I went hunting with Ranella a couple months ago, and it was the first time that I'd ever rattled in bucks, which was wild. Yeah, yeah. We were in South Texas. Sure. And literally, we would set up, and he would start clackety-clack, clackety-clack, and all of a sudden, you hear some sound, and you've got to get the full draw, like right away, because these fuckers are just running in.

Yeah, because you're rattling in thick cover. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. South Texas. Yeah, yeah. I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So it was very exciting. Dude, I've never done it, but I know some folks that have really got into rattling. Oh, my God. But more in open country, like, you know, where they can see a little bit and you see like whitetail coming from, you know, way far away. Yeah. It's crazy how well it works at the right time. Like when they're down to fuck. Yeah. It's like it's going

down yeah like that's you're just catching them when they think that there's a brawl going down over some ladies yeah it's like oh it must be some hot ladies in that area so they just start running isn't it funny i don't know why this is but i don't think i'm the anomaly here isn't it funny how there's like there's kind of an there's kind of enjoyment in manipulating them? Oh, yeah. Like with elk, it's the same way. Oh, it's the best. I mean, I used to do a fair amount of...

That's it. You found it. Oh, yeah. He found it. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Took a while to get there. So that was back when I was still rifle hunting. Oh, yeah.

Look at that. Look at all the hair. All that stuff on the ground is hair, rifle hunting. Oh, yeah. Look at that. Look at all the hair. All that stuff on the ground is hair,

which for people at home, this is November 11, 2014, and it was just hair everywhere, and that was a moose calf that they'd got. And they just tear it up. Tore it apart. Look at that. Like, everything's gone. The tongue's gone.

The esophagus is gone. All the organs are gone. The rib cageagus is gone. All the organs are gone. The rib cage still stands, but all the organs have been eaten out of it. I mean, all the skin off of all the hindquarters is gone, except for the lower parts. It's funny, man, because they're kind of a— Shout out to Mike Hawkridge. Yeah. My man.

Dogs or coyotes are kind of like that, too. They're kind of a... Shout out to Mike Hawkridge. Yeah. My man. Dogs or, you know, coyotes are kind of like that too. They're kind of dirty eaters. But lions, man, they're like tidy, you know, because they don't, you know, they'll store their kills, you know. It's kind of wild. Have you ever seen a lion kill where one's got piled up or whatever? No. I'm sure I got some pictures on my phone, but it's pretty neat how they'll cover it up, and it'll be tidy, and they'll come back, and they'll peel it back.

I don't think hunting's for everybody, but I think it's for a lot of people. I just think they don't know it. Yeah, dude, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, believe me. One of the things about Texas, there's a lot of opportunities for invasive pigs. And my friend Jesse Griffiths, who is the head chef and owner of Dai Due Restaurant in Texas,

he has an organization that trains people, teaches people how to hunt, takes them out hunting, shows them how to hunt, how to butcher the pig. What is it called? New School of Traditional Cookery. New School of Traditional Cookery. Yeah, this is, Jesse's the best. And Jesse is an amazing chef. If you're ever in Austin, Dai Due restaurant is the fucking shit.

I love going there. I go there all the time. Oh, and he has like a little school. Yes. And he's doing it with wild pigs. Yes. Click on that full boar just so you can see some of it. We don't have to play the music, the volume rather.

But this is his restaurant. And so in the restaurant, he's actually prepping some of these wild boars and showing people how to cook it. And he was with us in South Texas, by the way. So he cooked for us while we were there. He was hunting ducks and he cooked some ducks. Oh, yeah, yeah. I saw like something on Instagram. Yeah, my Instagram.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I put it up on Instagram where he was. So he teaches people how to hunt, how to shoot these animals, where to hit them, like the whole deal. He takes them through this whole process. And he does a very small group of people at a time, shows them how to make sausage. Yeah, he goes through the whole deal. It's amazing. And I'm telling you, man, his cooking is so good.

He took diver ducks and made the most delicious shit you've ever had in your life. Oh, nice. Most people call them diver duck shit ducks. Oh, they were so good, though, the way he cooked it. But as you can see it here, he really knows what he's doing. It was just such a treat to have that guy cook for us while we're down there. It was amazing. Yeah.

Well, man, in cooking game, it matters so much. Oh, yeah. There's so many species that people have told me like, oh, dude, you can't eat those. And then if the right guy cooks it, he's like, yeah. That's why I'm looking for this javelina chorizo. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to cook tomorrow morning. Well, Cliff, thank you very much for being here, man.

I'm glad we did this. I was thinking about doing this for a while, so I'm glad we got together. I'm forever grateful for having me on man my pleasure my pleasure oh tell everybody what your Instagram is so they can find you or whatever social media you use your YouTube page as well yeah yeah so yeah my my g-r-y it's cliff gray but it's cliff g-r-y yeah don't ask don't ask me why why don't you have an a? Because the other Cliff Gray already got it. Oh, okay. So you're CliffGRY on Instagram.

Yep. And then your YouTube channel is, oh, you have PursuitWithCliff.com. Yeah, so PursuitWithCliff.com. I got a newsletter and that sort of thing. People can go on that website and sign up. And then my YouTube is just my name, Cliff Gray. All right. And so that's easy to find too.

Beautiful. But yeah, I look forward to, you know, follow Gray. All right. And so that's easy to find too. Beautiful. But yeah, I look forward to, you know, follow along. Thanks for having me on, man. My pleasure, brother. Very, very fun. All right. Bye, everybody.