The Joe Rogan Experience - #1968 - Jason Everman

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Jason Everman is a musician and military veteran. Prior to his service as a US Army Ranger and Green Beret, Everman was a guitarist in Soundgarden and Nirvana. Learn more about Team Supernautiloid and Race to Alaska 2023 at www.supernautiloid.com.

the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day well thanks for coming man appreciate it yeah thanks for asking but you've had a wild life dude how the fuck does one go from playing in nirvana Soundgarden to being a soldier? It's a longer story. I don't know how long an answer you want. We got plenty of time. Okay. So I guess being a professional rock musician was something I kind of fell into. It wasn't something that I had a dream of.

It's like, oh, I'm going to be... I love playing in bands. I love playing music. But it was at this punk rock level where you're never going to make a living at it. It's just something fun to do. And then I started playing with Nirvana. fun to do and then uh started playing with nirvana and even at that level you know still not making money from it but you know touring was it the early days of nirvana yeah yeah so nirvana wasn't worldwide no at that point no um there were uh even on the seattle level like one of the the smaller, you know,

like there was bands like Mudhoney and Soundgarden that were better known than Nirvana was at the time. And you played for Soundgarden too, which is also hilarious. Yeah. And when, when did you like, so you're in the beginning. So did you just have, did you have friction with the band? Like why did you wind up leaving? in the beginning so did you just have did you have friction with the band like why did you wind up leaving so uh with nirvana is just i guess initially like when i came on board like kurt wanted a second guitar player for the live show basically like uh have a heavier sound

live take some of the guitar playing responsibility off him so he could concentrate on vocals like that kind of thing and initially like i thought i was going to be able to contribute to the band creatively and then it got to the point where i realized that wasn't going to happen then the same thing happened with chad the drummer i think and it was like everyone in the band including myself was like very poor, like, a lot of passive aggression. And, you know, I mean, we were kids, you know. How old were you at the time? 20, I think. And, yeah, I just, I wasn't equipped for it.

And I became more and more unhappy with the situation and then ended up leaving. So was it that when you tried to put creative input in, it would get shut down or they weren't interested or Kurt wasn't interested? Yeah, so on the rare time where we actually rehearsed as a band, which was not a lot, Kurt would kind of have heartedly like hey you who has ideas and like I'd throw a couple ideas out and then Chad like a

very accomplished musician in his own right would throw some ideas out and then it just kind of be glossed over and like okay here's the new song i wrote you know and start learning that so it was very uh egocentric cursory you know it's like he he kind of like threw it out there but then it wasn't going to go anywhere and so um did you so you went for nirvana first and then the sound garden yeah like i left we did a u.s tour like the first full U.S. tour that Nirvana did in 88 or 89. I can't remember what year it was, but I think it was still the 80s. And like I left at the end of that tour, like, okay, I'm done. Like nice little foray into rock and roll, but i'm gonna do something else and when i got home

um i was planning on going trekking in the himalayas like really yeah that was the next that was the next thing it's like okay this was a nice diversion but uh i'm gonna kind of fulfill this dream i've had since i was a kid of like trekking in the himalayas so i like i went to messker's maps in Seattle and was buying maps of the Himalaya of Nepal and Tibet and all this stuff and like getting gear sorted and that's what I was going to do and then at some point that summer or fall I can't remember what time of year it was into summer um kim from soundgarden called me and uh was like hey hero the their bass player then like quit do you want to audition for the band i was like you know at that point like soundgarden was my favorite seattle band like hands down and it was like okay you know, fully not believing I'd ever get chosen.

And then you did. Yeah. And how did that end? I got fired. What happened? It's complicated, but I think at the end of the day, I wasn't getting along with Chris that well, the singer. And, you know, obviously, you know, who's going to go?

Right, of course. Yeah, it was me. Yeah. So how does that translate into becoming a soldier? I mean, there's more to the story than that because there was still like i basically like getting fired from sound garden like put me in a pretty bad tailspin um it i mean it was a a rough patch in my life for sure and so in order to kind of cut this tailspin off. Like, I had to do something radical.

And what I did was ended up moving to New York. And so, I mean, there's more to the story than that. But moved to New York, like, basically, you know, I grew up in rural western Washington. Like, so it was kind of polar opposite to what I what my experience was like got a job in a warehouse got an apartment and kind of started my New York life and did that for a couple of years what was your plan when you moved to New York you just wanted to try it experience life in the city i think the main plan was like like get out of this funk that i was in you know how old were you at the time 21 22 maybe so just

young guy trying to figure out life yeah i mean like the sound garden thing i'm getting fired from sound garden like it broke my my heart. It was a bad spot for me because I love that band. And it wasn't about, you know, I never thought they would get as big as they did. Honestly, it kind of surprised me when they did because, yeah, they're a great band, but I always thought they were a little too quirky to be huge despite, you know, the Chris factor, like, you know, this genetically engineered rock star, you know the chris factor like you know this genetically engineered rock star you know um but i always thought they're a little a little too weird to be have like mainstream success which was fine with me i thought they'd be like like a big indie band like sonic youth or

butthole surfers like that level you know and um but it was more like, I just love that band and I love playing with them and like having that taken away. Yeah. It really, it fucked me up for a bit. So you just went to New York city to try to experience a different life. Um, just, uh, running for my demons, you know, like, like that old rubric. Yeah. Butric yeah but you know your demons tend to follow you always yeah what were your demons um you want to go down that rabbit hole sure there's a few um growing up you know like uh and like everyone has a story right like uh when my childhood was bad and my childhood wasn't bad necessarily but it was it was there was a lot of unhappiness for sure and um it stemmed from like my mother and my stepdad not being happy you know they're um i don't feel bad talking about it now because they're both gone now. But they, you know, they probably shouldn't have gotten married.

And they both, and that's one thing is like an adult, like looking back, you can kind of, you see your parents as human beings and not like these magical creatures that like feed you and take care of you. Right. And, you know, they got their dreams you right and you know they got they got their their dreams and their their you know crush dreams like they're humans so i have a lot of compassion for them now as an adult it's like oh i get it now you know it's like they weren't bad people they were just people and it's just being a child in that environment yeah because that because that's you have nothing to compare it to right it's just reality it child in that environment. Yeah, because you have nothing to compare it to.

Right. It's just reality. It's like, oh, I guess this is what being a kid is. It kind of sucks. Yeah. It can. Yeah. But through that suck, a lot of times that's where you sort of get your drive, unfortunately.

Oh, I'm a firm believer that growth is the result of trauma. Like you need that thesis, antithesis, synthesis, you know. Like Stephen Jay Gould called it pertaining to evolution, punctuated equilibrium. Where like evolution tends to stay stable if there's no pressures. evolution tends to stay stable if there's no pressures and but as soon as there's this introduction of new pressures usually the result of some cataclysmic event it's not a gradual thing it's usually sudden and extreme and that's where these new evolutionary pressures are introduced and it's like on this level of species you adapt and survive or you die off so i kind of like putting that template on the individual like you kind of cruise through life and then something fucked up happens

and then you know hopefully you step up and grow from it you know learn from it all that stuff so you go to new york city you were there for a few years. What were you doing while you were there? So initially I worked in a warehouse, and it was fine. You know, I was, like, paying my rent, living in Alphabet City, like, having this urban life that I never thought I would have had otherwise. Did you know anybody there? Yeah, I had friends there from touring and stuff, and so that was kind of my foothold for moving there. Like, didn't play music like I brought some equipment over like initially I went over um with like a backpack and that was it and I had a friend of mine's band who were on tour

pick me up at JFK and drive me into the city. I still remember this. Like the day before, like I was doing different kind of work to save money for the move. So the day before I flew to New York, I was like bucking bales of hay in like a hay field, like farm stuff, right? And my buddy Spike, who I'm still good friends with, played in this band called Mind Over Four they picked me up at jfk and i remember sitting in the van and looking at my my converse and like i still had like straw stuck in the converse from bailing hay the day before it was like okay this

is here we go that's an adventure yeah wow so you're there for a few years living that life and how do you transition out of that so I went back to Seattle at some point during the first year in New York to ship more of my personal belongings over and actually I went to Sub Pop because they had they had UPS shipping there and I'm like boxing up my stuff in the sub-pop offices and, like, getting ready to ship it to New York, like, including, like, a Marshall cabinet, like, some music gear. But I had this vague notion of, yeah, maybe I'll play there. But honestly, I probably didn't touch a bass or a guitar

for, like, the first year after getting fired from Soundgarden. It just still kind of had a bad taste in my mouth but what changed that was summer of 91 maybe um I was friends with this band called Skunk um they're this indie rock band on Twin Tone Records. There are three Mats, Matt Sweeney, Matt Quigley, and Matt Coleman. So Matt Quigley, the bass player, quit right before a European tour that they had booked supporting Babes in Toyland, another amazing band.

And so I get a call from Matt Sweeney, and he's like, hey, dude, like, Quigley quit. We got this tour coming up. Do you want to fill in on bass for this tour? So I'm like, I could work in this warehouse in New York, like in the sweltering, you know, New York summer heat. Or I could, you know, go to Europe for eight weeks or whatever and tour. So I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll do it. So I learned the songs and uh did that tour and and

to this day it was the funnest tour I'd ever done and I think that was because I really had nothing emotionally invested in the band like I like the music I like the music. I like the dudes. But it's just all I had to do was go out and play to the best of my ability. And, yeah, it was just fun. There was no burden, no heaviness to it, you know? Like being a part of Soundgarden. Yeah. It was an immense band. Yeah, that I was emotionally invested in, you know?

And so how do you go from that to... There's more to the story. Keep going. Okay. So I did the European tour with Skunk. And honestly, it was, I think, to this day, the best bass performances I ever did. I got some board recordings from that tour

that once in a while I'll listen to it and go, yeah, you know, it's not bad. Do you think it's because you were free? Because you didn't have pressure and burden? I think that was a component for sure, but also the songs were a bit more complicated and stylistically it wasn't necessarily my jam. I was into heavier

stuff and this is kind of more like soul asylum like indie rock which is great and the bass parts were really complicated and so I kind of had to push myself to learn them and again like you know grew from it as a musician so did the tour came back I started playing with this kind of an industrial band on Earache Records called Old Lady Drivers which is like another

kind of interesting foray into a genre that like I was a fan of like the grindcore bands for sure but like even this was like it's kind of beyond that because it's very it's a lot of synthesizers and drum machines and stuff that I really wasn't exposed to before. But they had a record deal with Earache. And you know who John Zorn is?

No. So he's an American treasure. He's this avant-garde jazz musician based out of New York. Google him if you get a chance, but, like, brilliant. Kind of, he does a lot of stuff. He's really prolific. Definitely a genius. But so Zorn was on board.

He produced the record. And John actually lived in my neighborhood. So I'd, like, go to his apartment. He lived, like, two blocks away in Alphabet City. And he had this insane record collection. Like the whole flat was like shelves of vinyl. And it was all organized very meticulously. Plastic sleeves for each jacket.

And he was like a student of American music or music in general and he got his knowledge and it's just cool like oh so here's this guy like very on a at least on an on a kind of underground level like very well known very well respected like huge in Japan of course and he's just like this nice and kind of normal dude like giving me a tour of his record collection you know and we're both living in the shitty neighborhood in Manhattan is this cool so that was a good experience like played played shows with them like played CB's again CBG bees which you know the legendary Punk club in New York, which even, even having played there

before, but it's just kind of like, I would still get excited about it. It's like, dude, I'm playing CBGBs. This is like, it's like this mythical place when I was a teenager, you know? And it's like, Oh, here I am. Um, so did that. And, but that was kind of like just a side thing for sure. And then I got contacted. So going back between the skunk tour and the old lady drivers experience, I kind of got into playing music again. Like it became fun again, which is why I did it in the first place. Like it brought me joy but you know there

was a couple times where i got to the point where the the joy was like fully extracted from the process and it just it wasn't fulfilling anymore you know so anyway i'm back in new york working in the warehouse doing my thing and I get contacted by um you ever heard of Uniform Choice no like a hardcore band from LA from the 80s um I get contacted by Pat Dubar who was in the 80s a singer for Uniform Choice and that was a band I was familiar with from the punk days and everything so he he was in this band called mind funk which first off like horrible name like get it we can go into that later but he's pat contacts me and he's like hey and they were signed to epic records had one record out already and he's like hey um we're

gonna replace our one of our guitar players and our drummer it's like are you interested in trying out and I honestly I hadn't heard their record and I gave the first one a listen and honestly wasn't that excited about it but it was it was kind of like at this point in my life it's like I kind of knew like if I'm going to give the music thing another go, like this is, this is going to be it. You know, it's like do this. And it'll either catch fire or it won't. And if it doesn't, I'll go on to the next chapter or whatever that is. And, um, so I, I can't, I can't, I don't even think i auditioned for the band i think they just

okay you're in so now we're looking for a drummer so i went and poached uh my friend sean back home in washington he played in a band that i was a big fan of and i was a big fan of sean and like convinced him to like come out to new york and like join this band that you know a big fan of and I was a big fan of Sean and like convinced him to like come out to New York and like join this band that you know he'd never heard of and it took a lot of convincing to get him to do it but he did it and so um this kind of mind funk 2.0 with Sean and I one plus side was like okay major label get put on salary like don't need a day job anymore right so once again I'm a professional rock musician which not that I care about the title but it was nice not to have the day job so we get a house in in Mon County, New Jersey, in order to write the next record.

So band house, five of us living in this house. And it was just routine. We'd get together every day, rehearse, write songs. I was given more or less full creative reign for my ideas and stuff, which was fulfilling on that level. more or less full creative reign for my ideas and stuff, which was fulfilling on that level. The band was managed by John Zazula.

Do you know Johnny Z? No. So he was like the dude who discovered Metallica. That's kind of his claim to fame. And he had a label called Megaforce Records, which great 80s movie, by the way, if you've never seen it. No. It's so good. It's about the band?

No. About the band? It's this horrible yet brilliant action movie from like 1982, I think. But that's a digression. So John and Marsha had this management company, like Crazed Management. They owned Megaforce Records, and that's the label that put out Kill Em All, and the first pressing of Ride the Lightning. And they did Merciful Fate Melissa. They did, you know, some really good records, like the first Anthrax records as well, I think.

So John managed some pretty big bands, like he managed Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, a ministry, I think. He was this kind of known quantity in the music world, or at least in the heavy metal world, hard rock world, whatever you want to call it. So we had Johnny Z sign to Epic, had the house in Jersey, writing the record um like with the name mindfunk which again is like dumb name it kind of turned me off initially so i suggested like making it one word like contracting it to make it a little less odious so i did that kind of kind of changed the logo. So it's kind of slipping in some aesthetic values

that I thought were better, at least, than what was going on at the time. Why'd you hate Mindfunk so much? It's just a dumb name. It's like the whole funk thing. It's like, oh, what, Chili Peppers, like what? No, it wasn't like that at all. But there's a lot of dumb band names out there and if the band catches

fire it doesn't matter if it's a dumb name it just gets accepted so that it's not that big a deal um so recording blah blah blah johnny z we get to um so we get Terry Date uh the producer on board to produce the second record and he I knew him he's from Seattle so I know him from Soundgarden and from like other local bands that he produced like like a known quantity in that world um we get we book out Bearsville Studio up in Woodstock New York um like Those studios are literally on this old Dutch farm. It's idyllic. So we get Bearsville booked out for three months, got Terry Dade on board.

It's September of 90, must be September 92. We pack up the U-haul all the gear uh drive up to barrisville to start the next record so sean and i are in the barn setting up equipment on this farm to start the pre-production work like i don't know it know, it was probably a Saturday. Or no, it was a Friday. It was definitely a Friday. So we're setting up the equipment to start pre-production work when Terry gets in. And I think Pat came down to the barn as we're setting up. And it's this late September.

You know, the heat has kind of left, like, New York State. So it's pleasant outside. It was beautiful, sunny, uh, farm, this old barn we're setting up equipment in. And Pat says,

Hey, we got to get everyone together. We'd like got some bad news. So Epic, the label had dropped the band like that day like like like catastrophic right or could have been catastrophic and just the fact that it was like a friday afternoon i'm sure it was like a post-it note on some dude at epics like computer monitor drop mind funk it's like oh shit i gotta do that so it's like a fuck you know it's like a three hundred thousand dollar recording budget um terry date is producer

like the band's literally homeless like we're gonna live at the studio but it's like okay what now so the dude who managed bearsville and i can't remember his name he's this british guy super sweet and he's like he saw we're in a tight spot he's like you know and he's out like a huge lump of money right because that studio was booked out for three months that's like a huge you know quarter million dollars probably. Um, it's like, you guys can stay here and sort out what you got to sort out kind of thing. So, um, I remember Pat and I were living in one of the cottages on the property. It was like this very quaint little farmhouse and like, we're, you know, at least I won't speak for everyone, but I was in a daze. I was like,

And like, we're, you know, at least I won't speak for everyone, but I was in a daze. I was like, um, fuck, you know, I was like already like lining up, getting my warehouse job back, like all this stuff. And so I remember just like staying in this house, uh, sleeping on this antique leather sofa and I have my cat with me. So it's me and my cat watching bad daytime TV. I think I lived on like cheerios and like soda like just nasty right just because i was too lazy to go go to a restaurant or buy food to cook or just like it's easy bowl of cereal and some soda like this just sounds so gross now and that even

then like that's not how i normally ate during But during that period, that's what I was eating. So I was watching bad daytime television. And I remember there was this wall hanging in the room, in the living room. And it was this macrame, like, koala bear. You know? Kind of tacky. And I kind of started obsessing on this macrame koala bear to the point where it's like, if I ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her koala macrame. You know, again, speaking of dumb names. But luckily that passed and I came up with a replacement for a daughter's name that was much better.

that was much better but um so during that week Johnny Z our manager who personally I didn't really like him that much you know he was kind of easily there was something kind of dodgy about him like in that music business way that also put a bad taste in my mouth on a lot of levels just being in that music business way that also put a bad taste in my mouth um on a lot of levels um just being in that that industry but johnny you know as much as i didn't like him he came through and maybe he was motivated by economic reasons rather than you know he's being a stand-up guy or whatever but he signed the band to megaforce to his label um put up the money for the recording to record the record put us all back on salary so it didn't miss a beat like no one had to get a day job and then terry terry date much to his credit like he had every right to bail right it's like okay what what's the next gig

okay i'm there he got us um studio time at bad animal studio in seattle which is heart's old recording studio it's gone now um like all this happened in like a week 10 days um like everything was back on track just like new label new studio in Seattle and so loaded up the gear flew to Seattle and probably 10 days later we were doing pre-production demos at Bad Animals and recorded the

record and it was done I think by December the mix was done I actually went back to New York and worked in the warehouse for a month to make some extra money and then the band well not the whole band but Sean Pat and I decided to move to San Francisco just for like a change of venue so I think New Year's Day or the day after I loaded

up you haul with all our stuff and like drove cross country by myself, which was like a super fun road trip. And then we got an apartment in the Mission District in San Francisco. And that's where like 1993 was a very transitional year. And that's where it kind of things got to the point where it's like, OK, I got to do something different for me personally. And what happens next? So we're living in San Francisco like that, like even while we're living in the house in New Jersey, during the recording process in Seattle and in San Francisco like like taking a lot of drugs like a lot of hallucinogens mostly but you know had had my flirtation with heroin like first started just smoking it you know

on tinfoil and then went into IV use and like I honestly enjoyed it but it never got his hooks in me and i got to the point where i was like yeah i should probably not continue down this path and walked away from it it's a big step to go to intravenous yeah well like i'm i'm a completist i guess it's like i want to i don't want to do it half halfway see what the fuss is all yeah exactly yeah what is the fuss all about so the feeling uh what's your experience with opiates only like while i've been under like having surgery yeah so it's the same yeah just that kind of weightless feeling it's very nice like it's i guess the analogy i can make is just that kind of

post-orgasmic bliss where you're weightless and everything feels wonderful it's like that you know but induced artificially i guess um living in san francisco so we toured a lot that year probably half the year was touring like Europe and the states and then when we're back in San Francisco it was like you know still on salary you didn't have to work so just hang out and like you know drop acid or drink mushroom tea or whatever and as fun as that is it was like like long term i don't know you know if this is going to be right and it you know the the record never caught fire i think it's a solid record like when i hear tracks off of it now you know i'm kind of like it's not bad no it's okay

um there's a couple of the songs on that record were basically nascent Soundgarden songs, you know? There were like riffs or song ideas I had that while playing with Soundgarden, like Chris would hear me playing it, like noodling around, and he'd be like, oh, remember that, you know? And so I had a couple ideas

that in a different life would have been on the next sound garden record conceivably so there's a couple of those songs on there not a bad record and we did um played like a bunch of the big festivals in europe like we we did pretty much everything but make a bunch of money you know which is again most bands you know most bands don't catch fire so what happened so during this period 1993 I started I guess crafting the next the next chapter right for me and I'd always been really intrigued by the military my grandfather both my grandfathers were World War II vets so my maternal grandfather was a tank commander in World War II and he was kind of my introduction to, like, military stuff.

You know, and I'm a little kid, so I'm intrigued by it. Like, you know, tank commander, that's cool. Like, he, on D-Day, he was an E-4 corporal, like, gunner on a Sherman tank. On V-E-Day, his unit had made it all the way to Vienna, and he was a company commander. And it was just survival, like attrition. Like, you know, I'm sure he was a fine soldier, but it was just attrition that he went from corporal to captain and,

you know, a year or whatever. My grandmother's second husband was a corpsman in in the navy so his story is super funny like he grew up in the small town on the columbia river in washington state so his i think there was like 20 dudes in his graduating class in high school and so they graduated june 1942 so right after graduation like 201 like every every male in his class went to the recruiter and enlisted. And so he went in the Navy. Um, his Navy MOS was like a pharmacist made or something like that. So he's like, Oh, I'll be on the ship, like working in the dispensary or whatever, like wrong. Like he graduates, like they give him a helmet and

attach them to a Marine platoon, infantry platoon. And like, you're the medic. And so he did like seven amphibious assaults in the Pacific, like the crazy stuff. Right. Yeah. Like it was super hard. And he had amazing stories, you know? Um, and then my, my father's father was in the coast guard and he did a lot of coastal patrolling um oregon coast washington coast columbia river during the war um just you know looking for japanese subs or whatever and so you because you had this sort of wanderlust that made you want to go trek in the himalayas, and you had this family that had this background in the military, you were thinking that this would be something that would be adventurous or intriguing to you? Yeah.

Like, I've always had a taste for, like, high adventure, like, as a child. Like, before, probably even before I was school. So, like, Saturday morning cartoons cartoons, like how old are you? 55. Yeah. We're same age. So I imagine probably grew up with similar cultural influences. So I remember in the like mornings watching TV shows, like cartoons,

like Johnny Quest was the big one, right? Speed Racer, Marine Boy, like all this you know speed racer and marine boy were were anime but they were like great you know marine boy was basically speed racer but underwater you know it's just super cool fantastical stuff um great to feed the imagination like the writing for johnny quest was so good you know and like the show in in retrospect was like kind of progressive it's like Johnny had two dads and like they had this like um multiracial like composite family like it was like but the writing was so solid like super creative um every I think it was only 26 episodes but each episode is distinct and well written and just just cool you know so i would watch this as a kid and be like i'm not sure what that is

but i want to do that you know so that was kind of the initial impetus for like and then growing up in the woods in western washington like I was expected you know I was kicked outside after breakfast and not expected to be seen again till dinner time and what I did between then was like on me and so I'd go out and do stupid stuff like climb high tension power lines you know to the top like five six years old like so so so stupid right but it was like oh this is cool you know um like in my mother she definitely facilitated this stuff like um much to her credit like we'd go camping uh in the olympic rainforest on the peninsula and there's like a couple rivers there but one of the main ones is the ho river and i had this as a child i had that like this 20 you know kmart inflatable raft with the oars

and my mom would drive me up river like like 10 miles or 15 miles or whatever in our volkswagen bus and like drop me off me and my $20 Kmart boat in a life vest. And she'd be like, all right, see you at the campground. And so I would be doing this like whitewater rafting by myself in my cheesy little boat for several, several miles. And, you know, didn't drown obviously. But it kind of instilled again or reinforced this sense of adventure, you know didn't drown obviously but it kind of instilled again this or reinforced this sense of adventure you know and i'm sure my mom would go to jail for that today you know probably not

jail but yeah definitely be discouraged um so that's background for the high adventure thing, the military thing. So 1993, I'm like, okay, I need to do something. I need that punctuated equilibrium, right? I need a dramatic event in order to promulgate the next period of growth or evolution or whatever. So you really actively thought that way? Yeah. You were trying to achieve growth? Yeah, I didn't want to stagnate. I didn't want to fall behind.

I guess as soon as I figured out what life authorship was or the concept, even though I may have not have known the term, yeah, I kind of endeavored to actively author my own life. You know, pursuing the ends of making a life that kept me engaged, kept me interested, and was meaningful to me, you know. So the military seemed like more and more like a viable option for for that next that next page that next step so i i at the time like 1993 there wasn't a lot of books out about special operations um and pretty much the only ones that were out there were like vietnam dudes so i i devoured every you know vietnam war special operations book whether it was like lerps rangers seals uh sf whatever had dick marchenko written his books yet that i don't know um i don't think so because i think I would have remembered reading them

I read one of them when I was in Gulag in ranger school and it seemed kind of like over the top to me but that's a digression I think there was one book out about like

the soft experience during the first Gulf War and it kind of went over different units and different operations and the first Gulf War and it kind of went over different units and different operations and I think that's the only kind of contemporary one that I was even out but it's like yeah yeah I'm gonna do this so well we're in San Francisco you know between like dropping acid and taking mushrooms I was going to the recruiter. And like, uh, I went to the neighbor recruiter first. Cause I actually knew someone who was a SEAL or former SEAL. And so

that seemed intriguing to me. So I go to the neighbor recruiter and I'm like, Hey, I want to, I want to be a SEAL. And they're like, well, um, here, take the ASVAB. So the ASVAB is like this IQ test that the military gives you. And so I took it, and I scored pretty high on it. And so they're trying to push me into, like, more technical MOSs, you know. And I'm like, but no, that's not what I want. What does MOS stand for? Oh, sorry. If I get too jargony, please stop me.

Military Occupational Special specialty, your job. And the Navy doesn't even call it MOS. I think they call it rate or something like taking the pt test basically and so i didn't know really anything about the military but i knew enough or i suspected enough that like okay i'm not i'm not gonna assign anything unless i'm like guaranteed a shot and so that's when i started talking to the armory recruiter and they could guarantee me. So basically they gave me a ranger contract. So ranger regiment's interesting in that it's pretty much the only special operations unit in the U.S. military that has privates, like has brand new soldiers. Pretty much every other unit, it's all NCOs.

So that's kind of your entry-level soft unit in the U.S. military is Ranger Regiment. And so what happens? So I finished my Mindfunk touring obligations, my Mindfunk touring obligations which went pretty much almost up until Christmas like in mid-December say

and like left the band and I think two months later I was in basic training What were you thinking while you were in basic training? I mean basic training is like it was like every movie cliche you've seen like happens it's like oh and this is you know this

part um it was it was a necessary step for the progression. It wasn't really challenging. The most challenging part about it was not being able to do what I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it. That was the biggest challenge for me. Your entire life, every minute of your day is controlled. So that was kind of like, yeah, I don't know if I dig this, you know? Right.

And, but, you know, sucked it up, went through it. After what they call AIT, like advanced individual training, which for me was infantry. You go through the infantry MOS training, go to airborne school, and uh go to airborne school and then go to uh selection for regiment so was what was the physical aspect of it like because it seemed like you're just partying and living life you know like a rock star before that you're just doing heroin and all this stuff and then all of a sudden you're involved in something that's very physically grueling. But I did prep. I got a YMCA membership, and I was swimming at the Y.

I was running. Even though I was kind of going into it somewhat blind, I knew that I can't just show up and not have any kind of fitness level, you know. So I did do some prep work, and I think it served me well. Was that the first time you had done physical stuff like that in your life? No. I mean, I was never – I played soccer when I was a kid. Like, soccer was, like, the one sport that wasn't – didn't have that jock culture you know so that's kind of what

i gravitated towards so and you know i did a lot of physical outside stuff like my whole life you know i worked in alaska on a fishing boat like um there was nothing it wasn't foreign you know like physical exertion and so what happens then go to selection at the time it was called rip like the the ranger indoctrination program now they call it rasp like the ranger assessment and selection program something like that and i think it's a week longer now but like like rip is when things got physically challenging for sure it was basically you just get abused for three weeks basically you know they try to make you quit and so like the runs like we do these like non-standard runs and rip that was it pushed pushed me to my limits like I was always kind of at the back of the pack um like I was still with the main body so I was I was keeping up I was meeting the standard

but like right behind me were like all the dudes who were like getting put on the truck like you're done you know so I was like you look at that and like dig a little deeper and like keep going, you know. But yeah, I got got selected and went to second Ranger Battalion. And did you immediately get deployed? Like what what year are we talking about here? This was 93. No, 94. OK, so this is post Desert Storm.

Yeah. What was the environment like um so it was like it was clinton era military um peacetime military so like everything was geared towards training right like there was a few dudes in in my company who were like pan vets. And so that was like 1989, I think, Just Cause. So there was some of those dudes hanging out, and I could tell they were just waiting for the next, like, real-world op. That's all they were doing. They were biding time. And, like, now I get it.

And I think even then I kind of got it. But just training. What do you mean by get it? Like, you know, that's, you want to do it for real. You still want to train all the time. Right. So, yeah, it was just a lot of training. There was deployments, but it was just all training deployments.

Yeah. You know, went to ranger school, like, got my ranger tab. And what happens after that? I finished my enlistment. It was, like, a four-year enlistment, I think. And then I got out because it was, like, in a way I kind of thought, like, I achieved what I aimed to achieve by going in the military. And there definitely, you know, wasn't a war on the horizon, at least one that anyone could see.

So I had a break in service for a couple of years. And I kind of fucked off. and I kind of fucked off. Ended up going to community college, which is like another kind of funny story. If you're interested. Sure. So I came back to Washington basically when my mother died.

came back to Washington basically when my when my mother died and so I was kind of like dealing with with her and her stuff and it was like there's a local community college where I grew up and like maybe maybe I'll give this college thing a try you know and so I registered for some classes but the the funny thing about that story is when I was like 8 18 I guess 17 like right before I graduated high school um all my friends from high school who were gonna go to college because like in my mind I was never gonna go I was like why am I gonna go to college like Cause like in my mind, I was never going to go. I was like, why am I going to go to college? Like, fuck this. You know, I was, you know, angry young man, dissatisfied on pretty much every level. But it was like, yeah, I'm not going to college.

College has nothing for me, but I wanted to hang out with my friends, like the dudes I skateboarded with and played music with and stuff. And so they were all going to take their SATs at the local community college, like on a Saturday morning or whatever it was. And so I went with them just so I could hang out with them. And I took the SATs, but I took my SATs on acid. How'd that go? I have no idea. I didn't care. I never picked up you know the scores like

it's probably just like making designs on the paper or something like you know i at that point like academia like higher education that just wasn't going to happen for me and so yeah it's kind of this fuck you punk rock thing. Like, I'm going to take my SATs on acid. So fast forward 10 years, I'm in that same room at Olympic College in a class, taking an astronomy class. And the building is still there. It's called the Rotunda. And it's this round, as you can imagine, building on campus. And, yeah, so he's laughing now.

So what was your idea, like, doing that, taking astronomy classes, going to college? Again, personal growth. Like, maybe I should focus on this aspect now, like academia. So I did that first semester, first two semesters at Olympic College and found that I liked it you know I like going to class and I like taking notes and I like learning and I'm like oh I get it now you know this whole college thing so I finished my associates at Olympic College and then went back in the Army. And so I was in the Special Forces Qualification course, like when 9-11 happened. And what caused you to go back in the Army?

It was a gut feeling. It was like, I don't think I'm done with this. gut feeling. It was like, I don't think I'm done with this. So I, I went, went to selection, got selected and selection, at least at the time was good for life basically. So how many years were you out? Like two, two years. Yeah. Not, not long, not long at all. And, and, you know, I blink now and two years goes by, but a lot had happened personally in those two years so I'm back back in the army doing the Special Forces qualification course which for my MOS like the 18 Bravo Special Forces weapons sergeant was like about a year

and a half so it was the first day of language school which was six months long was 9-11 yeah what was it like being in the military when 9-11 went down it was like I think everyone there so we're there's a group of us in this building at Fort Bragg called the so have the special operations academic facility and we're you know standing there's a group of us in this building at Fort Bragg called the SOAF, the Special Operations Academic Facility. And we're, you know, standing around the beginning of the day, like drinking coffee, getting ready to go to class, first day of class. And there's television monitors on with CNN or whatever. And we're watching the planes go into the tower. And like, I think 201, everyone knew that everything's changing right now. It's like this is, like, 100% for real.

And, like, everyone was like, yeah. That's how you felt? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All the training. Yeah. Like, finally we're going to do something. So what happens then?

I'm in language school for another six months. What are you learning Thai why Thai is this like my my units area of responsibility was Asia so got to do an Asian language and I like Thai food so graduate the Q course like do a couple of J-sets in Asia. So, J-sets, joint combined exchange training. So, you basically go, your team goes and trains with a foreign special operations unit. And you teach them stuff or you, you know. And it's more just to like establish rapport and maybe get

some access or whatever so do a couple j sets in asia and then uh get ready to go to iraq uh to prep for the invasion like an o2 and like spend a lot of time in kuwait just like training and and getting preparing what was it like when you went there to iraq yeah so that that was like my first like combat experience and so it was unique in that so my team and a couple other teams are basically attached to um the fourth ID to provide kind of route reconnaissance and screening and stuff for kind of this main conventional military, you know, invasion. And so watching big army work, you know, do what they do best was pretty amazing. Like tank engagements. Like I never thought I'd witness that. It was just almost like, and it's probably a trite cliche, but like a movie, you know, watching this massive mechanized force

just like crush everything in its path. So, yeah. When you were over there, was any doubt that you had done the right thing by enlisting again? Oh, no doubt. No doubt at all? Yeah. You were geared up, ready to go? Yeah.

So what happened when you were over there? What happened when you were over there? Got in some gunfights, hit some targets, and then redeployed back to the States. You say that so casually, got in gunfights and hit some targets. It had to be a pretty extreme experience. Yeah, but honestly, I think my Afghan experiences were more intense than Iraq, for sure. Yeah? Yeah.

It was a different animal. And when did that happen? So it did some rotations in Afghanistan following the Iraq invasion. And it was kind of the more traditional like SF mission, like working with indigenous troops and leading on on raids and things like that that's got to be a wild change of life to go from being a musician to go from being a deployed special operator in afghanistan like the shift in consciousness is so extreme. Maybe, maybe, but I, I,

I think I'm pretty good at just with rolling with stuff, you know, it's like, Oh, this is happening now. Okay. But that's a big happening. It's a huge happening to be in combat.

I mean, definitely. I think the war and in combat was the most profound experience of my life for sure. And I don't mean to maybe treat it lightly because I don't take it lightly. Yeah, it's by far the most profound experience of my life. So many guys who come back from that, not only do they say it's the most profound experience of their life, but many of them say it was the best experience of their life. I understand that for sure. Like, I guess I can encapsulate it like this.

Like, you got your dudes, you know, your, your, your team, your, your little indigenous troopers, and you're going to go crush some target. And, you know, you, you know, like I never had a doubt that, um, like maybe I would get injured or killed, but that the, that the, I never had a doubt that the mission would fail just because the odds were just in our favor. You know, it's like, you got night vision, you got a cast stack, you got this huge support apparatus. It's like there's no way we're not going to win this fight.

But going on target, closing with, destroying the enemy, and then getting you and all your dudes back to base alive, best feeling in the world. Really? Yeah. So many guys say alive, best feeling in the world. Really? Yeah. So many guys say that. Best feeling in the world. Wow.

Yeah. What is it? Can you describe it? Or give an attempt? I think, and I got my kind of evolutionary ideas about why that is. I think that we're on a very essential level, like doing what human beings or one of the things we're meant to do. Or maybe one of the things we've always done. Well, we're an adversarial species.

But like every species in nature is adversarial. And it's not an evaluative statement. It's just kind of an observation. So I think on this, just the way our brains are, like evolutionarily, like, okay, we're the monkeys with the big brains, right? And we've created this very technologically advanced, if not challenging environment now that we live in. But the way our firmware up here, we're still hominids on the Savannah, you know, like 100%. And so I think through war, through combat, we kind of tap into that primal, okay, this is what we're supposed to do, you know. Was that surprising to have that part of your mind sort of ignited in a sense where you realize that this is like something that's deeply embedded in your DNA?

Yeah. I mean, I know I'm making that claim, but it's not based on like scientific research I've done. It's just kind of an intuition. Well, many, many make that claim. Yeah. It's not an uncommon thought. Yeah. So it rings true to me.

And like, have you read like that Sebastian Younger book, Tribe? Yeah. Great book. Yeah. So it rings true to me. And like, have you read like that Sebastian Younger book? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And like his thesis, like that's the first kind of PTSD thesis I read that kind of rang true with me. Because like before that, the popular conception was, you know, these young men and women go off to war and see horrible things and come back fucked up but like his thesis where they they lose that lose that tribe right that task and purpose unity of effort you know literally we're tribal creatures like yeah that's that's what we that's how we operate like i i did a paper when I was doing my undergrad. I think I was trying to investigate genetic impetus for human conflict or whatever. During my research, one of the things I found that was super interesting to me was the way psychologically we're equipped to deal with about 100 to 120 individuals, like that would be our extended tribe, our social group.

Dunbar's number. Is that what it is? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's this group of people that you can contain in your mind. Yeah. And it's segmented. There's like a small number of people that you're intimately attached to. There's a larger number that are close but more like associates and friends and then there's people that you know

and it extends out it actually extends even further than 120 or 150 it gets to like people you are aware of but it's it's fairly small which is one of the weird things about knowing a lot of people. That number gets really weird. And then your memory of people, it's almost like your brain deletes them because there's no room. But then how well do you know them as well? How intimate is that relationship? relationship but an interesting correlation i made like researching this paper was that that number is is the same number um in army task organization as an infantry company is 120 and that's kind of like you know your main operational unit as a in the infantry at least

like soft you're dealing with smaller teams, smaller numbers. But I thought, wow, 120, that's it. And is that by design or is that just the way it worked out? It probably goes back to our tribal roots, most likely, that we evolved being accustomed to that group of people, that number of people or a similar number. Yeah, I mean, just survival. to that group of people, that number of people or a similar number. Yeah, I mean, just survival.

Like, our mission statement is biological organisms, you know, even, like, the big brain monkeys that we are. It's like, survive and replicate the gene. Yeah. And, like, everything else is kind of window dressing, you know? Yeah. And, like, you can window dress it however you want to make it seem more important than that. But I'm a huge fan of the window dressing.

Like that's definitely the salt in the soup for sure. But if you boil it down to, you know, what is the quiddity of being a human being? It's that or any biological organism like survive and replicate the gene and so the the whole capacity for for combat for human warfare is like even as an individual if if you're killed in combat on if you go back to like this group of hominids on the savannah you're probably related to everyone in your group. So it's like, okay, maybe I won't pass my genes on, but my cousin over here will. So I'm going to support that effort.

So I think that kind of organized conflict, one group against another, it's in support of that. Like I think anthropologists have a term for um a pseudo kinship where say in a combat situation so you got like the the classic uh scenario of like a dude jumping on a hand grenade to save his buddies you know and that's like that's hard wire that's hard wire. That's not a conscious decision. Because I think if you had time to actually think about it, maybe you wouldn't do it. Right. But it's that pseudo kinship.

I think that's, and to me, that's always what's been, I think, the most interesting paradox about war and combat is it's this event, this human event, that simultaneously brings about acts of pure selfless love and brutality without quarter in the same instant. So that's always intrigued me. In the same instant. So that's always intrigued me. Well, it's always fascinating for me to talk to people that are intelligent like yourself that have experienced that. Because that thread that you're expressing,, it also rings true with a purpose. And that your life is intimately connected to these people. And in some way, that becomes more satisfying than any other way to live.

And in some way that becomes more satisfying than any other way to live. Yeah. And to hear a person like yourself, who's obviously very smart, express that. It's always, it's really interesting to someone like myself who hasn't experienced that, but kind of understands what you're saying. I'm sure you do. I mean, I'm sure it rings true with you, right? Yeah. Like just intuitively. Yeah. Yeah. And you're aware of this while you're experiencing, cause you're obviously an analytical person. So you're aware of this while you're experiencing it.

Um, so I can think of instances where I've had these flashes of awareness, like, think of instances where I've had these flashes of awareness like okay I remember one target like we we halved in like a helicopter assault force so I was on the second 47 no I think I was on the second lift like it's a pretty big element going in No, I think I was on the second lift. Like, it was a pretty big element going in. And I remember landing in this poppy field, like, stepping off the ramp, and, like, I could hear gunfire. Like, it was already on, right, on target. And so I got my little Afghan commando troopers.

They were like, okay, man, let's go. And, like, I'm running up this hill. And I was aware in that moment, like, okay, this is odd that this is, you know, the cliche of like running to the gunfire. And I, I believe me, I don't consider myself like a heroic person at all. It was, it wasn't, it wasn't even a conscious decision. I was doing it. And it was like, I was trying to get there as quickly as I could. And it did occur to me like yeah this is kind of weird you know but it is your training and it also is your purpose yeah yeah and i don't know which supervenes on what but yeah for sure how bizarre was it the whole poppy fields thing because i remember one of the most interesting uh aspects of the war was that we were protecting poppy fields and there was this weird video i don't know if you've ever seen it

of geraldo rivera who was on fox news spinning this in some sort of a way but realizing how ridiculous it sounded while he was interviewing a general who was on the on the field or I don't remember It was a general soldier who's on the field who's explaining? Why they were doing this that they were guarding the poppy fields so that these people could keep making heroin Mm-hmm, and you know you're you're looking at this and especially someone who has a knowledge of Vietnam That it was intimately connected with drug running and that there was a lot of that going on that was part of the purpose of it, and that somewhere, someone was profiting off of this to the tune of billions of dollars, and you're not exactly sure how or how it was being done or what involvement the United States

military had in it. But in this particular instance, you're living in the era of social media and the internet. Not necessarily social media, but at least the internet, where people are very aware of things like that that are at the very least inconsistent with the narrative that we have here in America, that drugs are bad, bad people sell drugs, bad people make drugs. We have to stop the drugs from getting into the country. Now here you are, you know, we're watching Geraldo Rivera, a Fox reporter, putting this like really clunky spin on why we have to do this. And I can only imagine it's because it had already been exposed that the United States

was doing that and they had to say, well, we have to come up with some sort of an excuse for why we're guarding heroin production. So I guess my understanding of if the U.S. mill was doing that is probably like a secondary consideration. Because at least down south, that's a huge part of the economy. It's like opium production yeah and i would guess it would be eradicating like the the poppy fields would be a worse choice like like economically destabilizing like you know these people who are already super poor

um but it's also for sure yeah aiding in the profit of selling heroin. Oh, I mean, the Taliban would make money from opium production, even though it's against Islam or whatever. Yeah. No, it was – I don't know how to crack that nut. Was that talked about over there? Yeah. I mean, like DEA – I know DEA was over there doing their thing. What were they doing, selling it?

I don't know. That's what's so strange is that it seems like, especially when you have this disconnection from the mainstream media and from channels of information getting to other people, that this is a part of what's happening over there. That there's, it was, I believe at one point in time, it was 90 plus percent of the world's heroin. Yeah.

Yeah, was coming from Afghanistan. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't have an answer. Bizarre though, right? Yeah. Did you think how bizarre it was when, or was just that was inconsequential? That was not? Yeah, it wasn't like another poppy field. Like it was? Or was just that was inconsequential? That was not?

Yeah, it wasn't like another poppy field. Like it was just part of the landscape. But yeah, I probably didn't put much thought into it. How did they cultivate the pop? I mean, they were doing all this in the middle of combat, in the middle of war. Like how were they handling all that? I mean, like in my experience, like if we did hit a target that was like in a remote place like that, like they weren't seeing coalition forces often, if at all. You know, it's kind of like they probably thought they were in a safe haven.

So, I mean, I think when you get closer to the the built-up areas and at least at the time I mean like the whole Afghan government was so corrupt anyway so I think probably the main people making money were you know Afghan generals you know which I think at one time the Afghan army had like 3,000 general officers or something that That's like this inverted pyramid of leadership. Like, oh, I'm a general. And they all have mansions and it's all corruption money. How weird was that? Being a part, like that's the side that you were on.

I mean, you're over there sort of helping. Yeah, like I think you just got focus on the tribe right like the it's like you and your dudes and and you have this task and you're gonna accomplish it to the best of your ability and bring everyone back alive and then the political side of it I mean yeah it'd be easy to get kind of demoralized if you focus on that was it bizarre for you as someone who has done heroin to think oh this is where it comes from

I mean I think I was conscious of that but like it didn't it wasn't that crazy it's like so even though you knew that there was rampant corruption and that there's a lot of things that were kind of fucked, it was still your tribe, your task. Yep. Did you spend any time pondering like whether or not that made sense or did you just do what you were supposed to do? Yeah, I think I reflected on it and then would just, you know just do what you were supposed to do uh yeah i think i reflected on it

and then would just you know do it you know did anybody talk about it over there yeah i think yeah and i would talk about it too like you know as the war progressed you would see these mansions being built around cobble and stuff you know these ridiculous like concrete mansions and like uh that's our tax dollars are paying for that mansion you know or it's corruption money or it's it's opium money or whatever and it's just it's just part of the the culture there you know like how do you fix that it's like like i remember talking to one of our interpreters over there and like so i'm not married don't have a family and so obviously everything over there is very family oriented or you know family tribe

um you know that it's everything's geared towards like blood relations and things like that and like like the stronger and larger your family is the stronger your tribe is like that whole thing it's like a different paradigm than than we have in the in you know the west and and so we're talking we're just bullshitting and he's asking me about my family and i'm like oh i don't you know i don't have a family just me um but you know my my neighbor has the keys to my house, and, you know, they can go in and take care of stuff if I need something taken care of and all this.

And, like, the first thing he asks is, like, and they do not steal all your things? Because that's what he was thinking. Right. Like, oh, if I had your keys, I'd be stealing your shit. Right. And that's the mentality. Like, oh, if I had your keys, I'd be stealing your shit. Right. And that's the mentality. Like, it's just different, you know?

The houses down there, each house, each family unit house is a miniature fortress. You know, and it's because it's this culture that they habitually prey upon each other. So the houses need to be these mini-fortresses. You know, we're here in the West, you know, like I don't have a fence around my property. My neighbors have my keys. Like, it's fine, you know? Yeah.

How bizarre was that, though, to go over there and experience this completely different way of life with other human beings living on another part of the world completely different set of values different goals and expectations different religion it was fascinating yeah like just because that part of the world like central asia is like such a fascinating part of the world like all the way back to antiquity um all the history that's like transpired you know in that area like any chance i got to see something like somewhat historical like there's still remains of like greek ruins from 300 bc

really yeah in afghanistan yeah really oh yeah there was a, I never got to this town, but up on the Oxus River, there's been several attempts over the decades to do an archaeological excavation of the entire city. But it's like, it's a no shit Greek city in Central Asia. Wow. So when Alexander of Macedon was his campaign in Asia, so he pushed all the way to the Indus River. But what he would do along the way is establish Alexandrias. So you know Alexandria in Egypt, but there's multiple Alexandrias. The etymology of Kandahar, the town in Afghanistan, if you go back, it was Iskandahar. And Iskandahar literally means Alexandria. That was one of the Alexandrias that he established in Central Asia

and all over Persia and Asia Minor. Like that was his thing. And it was a way to kind of maintain a foothold in that part of the world, like build a city, establish like a Greek education system to educate the locals in the Greek model. So he was kind of projecting, you know, he was in it for the long game. Like this is part of Greece. It's going to be Greek.

And the Greco-Bactrian Empire, if you want to call it that, probably lasted like 100 years, and then it just fell apart. Is there, like, documentation of the Greek cities, the ruins in Afghanistan? Yeah. Jamie, can you pull some of that up so you can find any of that? That's fascinating. I had no idea. So the old Alexandria.

So there it is. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. And so that's just abandoned now? Yeah. That's amazing.

Mm-hmm. And is this from 300 BC? Yeah, around that. Wow. That's amazing. I had no idea. So at one point in time, that had been some sort of a thriving community. Yeah, the city on the Oxus, Ikenum. See where it says Ikenum, Wikipedia? That was the city on the oxus um that i can see where it says i can um wikipedia that

was the city on the oxus wow yeah wow so they had an amphitheater yeah it was a full-on greek city that's incredible yeah that is wild and so How did they How did they maintain it And how did it collapse I mean I don't know Look at that That's intense man

But that's up north in Kunduz What is that statue Jamie Where it says the history It's a Buddha statue The Buddha's a Bamiyan Like the Taliban blew those up Oh right Fuck

What a bummer How old were those? Um That I'm not sure But there's a lot of historians think that Like the Vedas And Buddhism buddhism kind of started like more in the afghanistan area really yeah no kidding the vedas yeah wow look at the all this fucking all these buddhas yeah there's tons of uh there's some really cool, so there was this really interesting period of history of Greco-Buddhism in Central Asia.

There was one, one of the Greco-Bactrian kings, Menander, actually converted to Buddhism. And there was this brief moment of, brief period of Greco-Buddhism in Central Asia. brief period of Greco-Buddhism in Central Asia. And so the Buddhas that were carved, so they're carving statues of the Buddha and stuff, but it's in this total Greco-Roman style. So they're beautiful pieces of art. And it's literally a Greek Buddha.

You look at it stylistically and it's like, that's Greek, but it's a Buddha. You know, you look at it stylistically and it's like, that's Greek, but it's a Buddha. And it's cool, cool, you know, flash in the pan of history. See if you can find any images of that.

Are those all gone? Did the Taliban blow them all up? No. I mean, these, so there's actually some at the Met in New York that I've seen. I've seen some at the National Museum in Kabul.

Look at that. Yeah. That's so strange because it's so obviously influenced by Greek art. Yeah, the folds and the robe and all that. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah, the folds and the robe and all that.

Yeah. Wow. Wow. It's really, really cool, really interesting. Human civilization is so bizarre. The rise and fall of these empires and these civilizations. And for you to go and visit it in the middle of combat must have been particularly bizarre. Yeah, like I would try to get and do my share of, for lack of a better term, like tourism.

Like I went to the old citadel outside of Kandahar where right now now when you're on the ground it doesn't look like anything but if you go to like Google Earth you can see the old outline of the city walls and you could see the like the citadel in the middle and it's like it's still there the remains of it um the um like up in Nuristan which is a super interesting part of Afghanistan. It's, it's like the Northeast part of the country. And it's a region that wasn't even converted to Islam until the end of the 19th century. Like it's,

you can make the analogy of they're like the Basque in Spain, right? It was like this mountainous region that kind of was able to retain like its cultural and linguistic identity because of the terrain. Like it was more defendable. So Nuristan was like that as well. And so they were finally forcibly converted to Islam into the 19th century. And before that they were called Kfiristan, which is like land of the infidel. And then once they underwent the conversion process, they became Nuristan, which is Land of the Enlightened.

Oh, wow. Yeah. But it's such an interesting place. I liked it a lot because it reminded me of home where I grew up because you have like alpine forest. It looks like Yosemite. Because you have, like, alpine forest. It looks like Yosemite. Like, if they could ever have peace there, they could have, like, a trekking industry, you know, ecotourism, whatever.

Like, White River rafting down the Kunar River. Like, it's gorgeous. And there was places where, in Afghanistan, where I was like, I could be home on the Olympic Peninsula right now. Wow. Like, mountains, alpine forest. be home on the Olympic Peninsula right now. Wow. Like mountains, alpine forest. Yeah, there's the old citadel. That's incredible. Yeah.

I had no idea this stuff was there. Yeah. The history of Afghanistan is so fascinating and so spectacular and so, like, the futility of trying to conquer that place and control that place. It's going to be what it's going to be. Yeah. Like, you're not going to change it.

You're not going to westernize it. It's not going to happen. Did you, like, it's so crazy that we were there for so long it's a 20-year war would you have ever imagined that while you were there no like if you would have told me um a september 10th 2001 like oh yeah we're getting ready to be in a 20-year war in in the middle east and central asia i would have been like no fucking way that's that's just not gonna happen you know and then boom what did it what was it like to you when we pulled out of it finally um on the one hand it was like a relief it's like you know enough already it's like we're obviously not fixing that place you know it's doubtful we could fix it I think it would have been clever

to hold on to Bagram and maintain a strike force there to put out fires so to speak but other than that like let it be what it's gonna be you know and like protect US interests as needed but you, you know, we're not going to change that place. It's so crazy that we didn't learn from the Russian invasion. We didn't learn from the Russians' battle in the Mujahideen, which we supported, which is so strange that everyone makes the same mistakes. Or the British or the Greeks, you know. It's like the Greek foothold there Greeks, you know, it's like the,

the, the, the Greek foothold there lasted, you know, what a hundred years? Like, so historically that's nothing. Right.

Yeah. Just like, is it, there's no place like it on earth in that regard. Cause like, because of the terrain, because of the, the people and the religion and the,

just the, the, the way it controlled, areas are controlled by warlords. Yeah, it's all tribal. It's all, and that's the way they, politically, that's the way they govern themselves, and that's just the, you know, and it's not even an evaluative statement. It's like, yeah, it's not Western style, but okay. You know, what are you going to do? You know, they, they got to, at some point, as long as they're not impinging upon it, it's a, I guess I have a very libertarian perspective. Like, you know, if they don't fuck with us, we shouldn't fuck with them. Right. You know. Yeah, that's, there's a futility in trying to be the policeman of the world.

It's exhausting. Yeah. You know, and ultimately you're going to fail. You know, you're going to drain all your resources trying to manage something literally on the other side of the planet to what end right you know and then there's these entities that are profiting off of that futile attempt which they would like to continue that money flowing in so they continue this this thing that everybody knows you're eventually gonna have to stop yeah definitely it turned into an industry for sure. And were you aware of that while you were there,

that there was no way out of this? I mean, I don't, I guess I always suspected that it would never be, like it wasn't gonna be like, hey, check this out, democracy. It's cool. Right. You know, like, I pretty much knew that wasn't going to fly. I think the best I could hope for was just stability, you know.

And that didn't happen. No. You know, there was some really bizarre moments after we pulled out of Afghanistan where they were interviewing the Taliban and talking to them about women being in control or women, you know, being in government and whether or not they were going to accept sort of this Western idea of diversity and inclusion. And they were just fucking laughing. Yeah. Yeah. It's absurd to them. Yeah. You know, fucking laughing yeah yeah it's it's absurd to them yeah you know just just like the other side of the coin is absurd to us yeah so how do you bridge that gap especially when you're dealing with the the history of the place that the you know hundreds of years hundreds and hundreds of

years of living that way the idea that we're going to go in there with tanks and fix it. We're going to force you to be democratic. It's like, okay, that's not going to happen either. And also the rampant corruption that exists in the people that are in power. You know, when you're talking about all these mansions and the selling of the heroin, it's like, what are you going to do? How are you going to get those people to straighten out? You're not. Yeah. It's ingrained. It's cultural. It's maybe even more than cultural, you know?

Was there a time when you were over there, like towards the end of your time there, where you were recognizing the futility of this? Yeah, I think big pictures, yeah. the futility of this yeah i think big pictures yeah but again you're there to do a job so you can't you can't do all the negative you know and it's like you you need to believe in the mission you know and i believed in the mission as far as like myself and my teammates like we're we're gonna do what we have to do and do it to the best of our ability and everyone come home alive you know yeah complete your task support your tribe yeah yeah when how many years how long were you over there for

I did like four rotations so I I left the Army the second time like 2007 when I was basically went back to school. What was it like to make that transition from being over there in one of the most bizarre wars we've ever been a part of and then going back to school and going back to civilized society and going back to Western culture? Again, I think just my disposition, I tend to just go with things. You have a very unusual disposition. Really? I don't know. I think four out of five ex-girlfriends polled would suggest I'm good at compartmentalizing things. Four out of five? What about the fifth?

No, I'm guessing. No, it's just I made the transition. I thought, well. It's like, okay, cool. I'm in school. Now working on this chapter. Like, okay, cool, I'm in school, like, now working on this chapter, you know? Why do you think some people struggle so much and you were able to sort of at least fairly smoothly make that transition?

I don't have the answer to that. I don't know. Did you have friends that struggled? I mean, most of my friends from the military are soft guys. Yeah. And I think in general, like, they're adaptable. You know, I think that's kind of a soft special operations soldier criteria is you need to be flexible and adaptable and quick on your feet like that. And more resilient.

They're more resilient human beings. I would think so, yeah. Yeah, I would think so too, at least my experience with them. I've had conversations with Special Forces guys where they explained to me the reason why less of them experience the kind of PTSD that some of the other guys had. And they said because we were proactive. We weren't reactive. We were going and doing things.

It wasn't like we're sitting around waiting to be attacked. And some of the guys that are sitting around waiting to be attacked, the anxiety of that was kind of overwhelming. I can see that, yeah. If you're just sitting on a fob like like, waiting for that rocket attack, yeah. Yeah. And so you come back in 2007, and you decided you're done? That's it?

Yeah, so I was at another Crossroads, and it was like, I can reenlist, or I can go to university. So I applied. A friend of mine in New York was like, you're pretty smart. You should apply to Columbia. And I was like, I would never get accepted there. You know, that's not going to happen. And so almost as a joke, I applied to Columbia and I applied to Seattle University as well. Only two schools I applied to and ended up getting accepted to both. And so with the Columbia thing, it was like, OK, am I going to step up to the challenge or, you know, go, I mean, not necessarily the easier route,

but maybe the more comfortable route, which would have been Seattle U. And I went for Columbia. It's like, okay, challenge accepted, you know. And what did you study in Columbia? Philosophy. A lot of money in philosophy. I don't know if you knew that. I heard it's right up there with gender studies.

Yeah. Would you like some coffee? Yeah, please. Cheers. Cheers. So how much time did you do there? So they accepted a lot of my Olympic college credits, shockingly. And they accepted my military language school for my language requirement.

So I basically had to do three years there to finish my undergrad. And then you went to graduate school as well? I had a break, but, yeah, ended up going to graduate school in 2016 maybe. And what do you do now? So now I mostly do yacht delivery. Yacht delivery? Yeah, sailboats. Oh, wow.

Yeah. And was that, like, how did that come about? So there's a story there. Okay. Okay, let me organize this real quick in my head. Like, 2014, okay, so I'd finished my undergrad. I was now holder of an Ivy League degree, like much to my chagrin. And I went through a personal crisis that was pretty bad.

It was almost up there with like the sound garden personal crisis um and so i kind of did a similar thing where it's like okay i need to take some time off you know to do some work on myself you know and so how that translated was I'd always been really interested in Argentina as a country and as a place. So I got a flat in Buenos Aires and went and lived there for a couple months and kind of did this deep period of introspection. But during this time, before I left, a good friend of mine suggested this book called Dove, written by a man named Robin Lee Graham. And so he's like, hey, I just read this book. You should read it. I think you'd really dig it. And I didn't even know what it was about.

So I found a used copy and took it with me down and read it and so it's it's the story i don't know if you've even heard of this this story of robin graham but he did i think he started 1967 he did a solo circumnavigation in a sailboat that took him about five years to do but he at the time he was the youngest person to ever do that. He started when he was like 15. And it was like, it got a lot of press, like National Geographic covered it. I think he's been on the cover of National Geographic like three times. And so it's an interesting account, his solo circumnavigation. Took him five years.

his solo circumnavigation, um, took him five years. Uh, along the way he met this woman, Patty, like this young, you know, pretty hippie chick, like somewhere in the South Pacific. And they fell in love and like got married and she would kind of meet him in different spots as he finished the circumnavigation. And then the book ends, um, he returns to los angeles uh circumnavigation complete um and i'm i'm like super cynical like going okay what happened now you know and i'm like i bet that marriage didn't last you know because after something i guess i equated it to like a war zone romance or something you know where you're kind of in this super heightened environment so if you bring it back to just normal life like does it survive like is like what made it interesting or exciting or whatever you know do you kind of get back to reality and it's like yeah you know you're not

that interesting or whatever right um so yeah i'm super cynical like that marriage didn't last whatever so but then i started doing some internet research on on robin graham and turns out he wrote like a second book um called um the sailor returns from the sea or something like that so what what had happened um and he he did go through kind of a dark period after the circumnavigation um that i i won't get into but he told me about it personally so he and patty in like the early 1970s so they get back from like five years you know sailing the world basically um it's pre-internet, pre the, the communication that we have now. So obviously 1965 to 1970 was a pretty turbulent period in

like American history. And so Robin essentially missed all that and he gets back to the States and was it a Stanford? I thinkford offered him like a full ride scholarship so he went for a semester and basically couldn't deal with all these lefty professors and like i'm out of here and so he and patty loaded up uh like bought like a mail truck i think loaded up all their stuff and and went to montana and homesteaded in Montana, like super old school, like 19th century homestead. Wow. And so I'm doing this research and it's like, oh, Kalispell, Montana. My buddy Mike from Ranger Battalion lives in Kalispell, Montana. So I'm in my flat in Buenos Aires and I email Mike. I'm like, Hey dude, did you know a guy in Kalispell named Robin Graham?

Like 30 minutes later I get an email. It's like, yeah, I saw him in Costco yesterday. It's like no fucking way. And so, Hey, can you, can you do like an email introduction for me? And he's like, yeah. And so, you know, fast forward to today, um, I'm very happy and proud to call Robin and Patty friends, you know, like amazing human beings, like so cool. And so the sailing thing, to bring it back, like reading Dove and like getting to know Robin and stuff, I started getting interested in sailing. And like I, you know, I live in western Washington on Puget Sound. Like it's a very nautical culture.

And I've worked on boats in Alaska and actually come from kind of a nautical family on my father's side. Like they all worked on tugboats on the Columbia River. Like my grandfather, my my uncles my dad was a commercial fisherman in Alaska like ran his own boat for decades and so it seemed like kind of a natural thing like I've always been attracted to boats in the water so I started started looking you know did the practical thing started looking for a sailboat and I found one for sale that was about 10 miles from my house but I knew nothing about sailboats so I'm like pinging people I know who do know stuff about sailboats I'm like hey is this boat any good you know you know look at the pictures

look at the the year and the design and everything so it was a 1986 jean-naud sunrise 34 sloop and like all these people like yeah it's a good boat it's a good boat like yeah and the price is right so i'm watching it and the price kept dropping it kept dropping and then it got low enough where it's like it was kind of in my realm so i contacted the broker and like actually went down and looked at the boat like did a walkthrough and i was like so is the seller taking offers on this and he's just like yeah make one and so i went i had some deployment money saved up and i had i could pile up about 17 grand and so at the time so I offered 17,000 and like half hour later it's like you got a boat so that was the beginning of my my personal you know sailing adventures did you live on it

nope my folks did that for a while when they retired. Um, my mom and my stepdad decided to live on a sailboat. They flew around the keys and they went down to the Bahamas. They just decided to just live on a boat for a while until my mom got bored with it. Yeah. My mom was like, well, this is ridiculous. But I think it was a very educational and an enlightening experience to just live in nature on the ocean for a while. You know, that's a very, that's a, you know, wanderlust appeal to a lot of people to just get on a boat and live on a boat and wake up and have coffee on the ocean just exist out there yeah i i bought the boat with the intent at least the vague intent of doing a circumnavigation of my own just really yeah because it seems like such a like what appeals to me about sailing is, I mean, outside of, like, electronic navigational aids, it's the same as it's always been. It's like you and the boat and the sea and the wind and, you know, you got to make it work.

and there's something like really, like when you actually get out on the water and you've got the sails up and you're on a good tack and the boat's doing its thing, it's an awesome feeling. It's like I'm not going to quite say it's primal because obviously hominids on the Savannah didn't have sailboats, but it's close to that. It's obviously very appealing. I mean, people love to do it they the and the sailboat thing is like that's like the the highest level of expression of nautical experience for a lot of people yeah i think like being a true sailor is like sailing yeah you know and like even at the uh at the navy academy at annapolis like

the the ensigns they put them on sailboats to to teach them to be sailors you know like on that very fundamental level and it's it's like anything else it's like like being a a soldier or a musician or like i think you have to master the fundamentals because if you, if you suck at the fundamentals, you're going to suck at everything else. So I've always focused on fundamentals. I mean, mainly because I'm, I'm not naturally good at anything really. Like I've always had to try. And so in the support of, in the service of trying to be good at anything really like i've always had to try and so in the support of in the service of trying to be good at something i've always focused on the fundamentals and trying to master them

and hopefully just have a good foundation i mean that's one thing that was like unique about growing up as like a soldier in ranger battalion because ranger battalion is like super like regiments a unique animal like even within the military even within the soft community it's it's it's its own thing culturally and they always stress the fundamentals and you know it's like being a private in Ranger Regiment is not easy. But the fact that it's hard, I would think, makes you a better soldier. Because there's no, like NCOs in Ranger Regiment don't, they don't tolerate anything less than 100%. And if you bring anything less than 100%, you're going to find out really quick.

And usually in a way that's not pleasant. And so I think having that foundation as a Ranger private, I mean, I'm not going to say I'm any kind of amazing soldier, but I think it made me the best soldier that I could be for sure. And I'll always look back at regiment as like being a very key event in my life, like my time there. event in my life, like my time there. Well, I think that any particularly difficult endeavor strengthens your resolve and basically everything you do in life. And when you're forced to do something that's very, very hard to do, it just changes who you are at, you know, at a foundational level. Yeah. I think it's that, that punctuated equilibrium that, uh, referenced earlier. It's like you need, you need that traumatic event to be a catalyst for growth. Yeah. You know, these big events in life that change the progression of the rest of your life.

And then you look back and go, wow, what, what would have happened if not for that moment or if not for that experience so did you decide not to circumnavigate the globe um i mean that's like a huge endeavor um it would take i think at a minimum a year and like i don't know when the last time you had a free year i don't have any time like like even the first year of covid it was like and it was the most free time i probably had in my adult life and it was still like not a lot you know so it's it's something oh yeah i would still love to do it i think being able to go like there's islands in the south atlantic or even in the pacific that they don't have an airport. The only way you're going to get there is by boat, you know? And I think that'd be really cool to see, like some kind of the last, like, you can't say unexplored, but kind of the last, like, remote places on the planet.

I would also imagine you would meet some very fascinating people that are also doing that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so too yeah so like the the sailing like kind of the the 50 meter target right now with sailing is have you ever heard of race to alaska no so it's this adventure race kind of a quirky adventure race um that's based back home where I live. And it's a boat race from Port Townsend, Washington to Ketchikan, Alaska. And there's really only one cardinal rule, and there's a lot of other rules, but they pretty much deal with safety at sea

and things like that. But kind of the one cardinal rule of the race is no motor. Like the vessel has to be either wind-powered, human-powered, but no internal combustion or electric engines. How long is that journey? I think generally you could do it in a week. It's about 750 miles. So they changed the rules last year where,

so before you could only go up the inside passage, like the east side of Vancouver Island, and it's very constrained waterways, and like current's always an issue because a lot of, like there's pretty big tides up there, like a 12-foot tide in that part of the country's normal you know and so you get these big tides and constrained waterways and they turn into rivers so if you don't hit the current right to hit the tide right you know it's you're gonna

have to anchor up somewhere and just wait for the tide to change so there's those challenges but anyway they changed the rules last year where you could go up the pacific side like just just go up the straits of anafuca hang a right and just go up the pacific so that's what i intend to do because you'll you'll have good wind pretty much the whole time um it'd be a little sloppier but you're not you're not going to deal with the tides and currents you're not going to deal with the ship traffic in the inside passage you're not going to deal with the tides and currents. You're not going to deal with the ship traffic and the inside passage. You're not going to deal with like floating logs that you can hit at night. There's all these like things that make it less appealing to me for sure. What do you do at night in those circumstances?

It's pitch black outside. You have no motor. So I got a crew of three. So the team is called Supernautaloid. It's a reference to my favorite Black Sabbath record. And I did a logo and everything. So right now I'm in the process of refitting the boat. And so it's a pretty big project.

So right now everything's going okay. So it's a pretty big project. So right now everything's going okay, like trying to raise money, like set up a GoFundMe page through the Supernautaloid site in order to fill the gaps, you know, financially, because it is a pretty big project. I've been doing most of the work myself so far. But, yeah, the team of four, it's me, two other veterans, one friend from Ranger Battalion, one friend from SF.

And then I got a buddy from the Seattle Rock Days, Barrett Martin, who was the drummer for the Screaming Trees. And he's played in a few other bands. And he's actually a Grammy award winning producer, like super interesting guy. Actually, you dig him. You should have him on the show. he's also an ethnomusicologist so he's he's gone down to Peru and recorded um the like Shipibo shaman like Icarus the ayahuasca songs and he's doing a record now called Deep Amazon, where the concept is he has all these Icaros that he recorded down in Peru,

and then he's bringing in various musicians to accompany these Icaros on guitar or whatever instrument. So I play on it. Kim and Matt from Soundgarden play on it peter buck from rem plays on it so it's kind of this interesting cast of characters um supporting the shipibo icaros so the record comes out october i guess and any profits that are made are going to go back to the tribe so it's kind of cool that That is cool. Yeah. So how much time have you been spending sailing that you're interested in doing this? Have you dedicated a lot

of your time to that? Yeah. Like, like, uh, as much free time as I can. I love getting out on the boat, um, getting the sails up and just, just going. Um, I, I like even just like sleeping on the boat. Like when my boat was moored, um, at this one Marina close to my house. Is that your boat? That's my boat getting hauled out. Wow. So real sailboat. So the, the boat name is funny.

So remember when I was talking about, uh, Koala Macrame. So the, these bottom paint bad that's on the on the to-do list but um i'd modified the name if i ever had a daughter to uh gita alexandra so it's a name that at once is beautiful and strong so that was a concept but, but like, you know, I'm probably never going to have a daughter. So do you have kids? No, no kids. No, no wife, no ex-wives, no kids. Wow. Yeah. How'd you skate through life without, I don't know. I mean, I guess it wasn't planned. I mean, maybe on a subconscious level just due to my childhood i probably

avoided it subconsciously yeah a lot of people do yeah yeah a lot of people with traumatic childhoods or unpleasant childhoods they say i don't want to bring that on anybody else yeah because you associate what childhood is and what you, being a parent is with what you experienced. You know, you don't think there's another way to do it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I've had friends who'd be like, oh, you'd be an awesome dad. And I'm like, mm.

I bet you would. I don't know, man. Yeah. And then, like, going down that road and then it turns out, like, oh, I do suck. Like, horrible, you know? You talked about your flexibility. You'd adjust. You'd get better at it.

It's a strange experience. It's very psychedelic. Do you have kids? Yeah. I have three daughters. Having children is seeing a little person and engaging with them and having them grow with you and learning about life. And in a lot of ways, it gives you a chance to do it the right way.

You know, like you think about what's happened to you and you learn from that and, you know, you learn from your mistakes and raising them and you learn how to communicate with little people who are just sort of growing and learning. It's very educational. It's very educational. It's very fascinating. It changes you fundamentally as a human being. It changes everything about you. I could imagine because, again, going back to just the evolutionary thing,

you're kind of fulfilling your mission as an organism. Yes. In that way, it really does speak to your DNA. There's something about it. But it's also, it's like, Dave Chappelle said this to me once. It's a great quote. He said, becoming a father didn't just change the amount of love that I have. It changed my capacity for love.

And I think that's very accurate. But you know, some people, their demons don't line up with that endeavor. You know, whatever it is in their life doesn't line up with it. And they don't make those adjustments because you're going to have to adjust. You're going to have to change your priorities. You change who you are. You change how you think about people. What's fascinating with me is I always felt about people that there were these static things. Like, you know, I met Mike. He's 70. That's Mike. He's always been 70. And then you have children and raise children and see them grow from the time they're a little baby to a person who's having a conversation with you that you go to dinner with, you go to the movies with, and you know all their life experiences and the good ones and the bad

ones. And it's just, I look at people now like babies. I look at everybody like they're a baby. It's very weird. I go, I wonder what you were like as a baby. Because you obviously got to this point from being, I see in my mind, or at least I envision this journey now to get to who you are now. I give people a lot more slack because of it. A lot more.

I'm so much more charitable with people and their behavior and their attitudes because of that because i realized that a lot of what life is is determinism it's not just free will and who you are a lot of it is the experiences that were thrust upon you and how you had to react to those experiences and what you were taught and who you're you know you know I have friends with horrible parents and that, that battle to deal with these motherfuckers that raised you is like, it's like a constant thing in their life that they never quite get past, you know? And I was very fortunate that, um, my mom, when she married my stepdad, they're very close and they've been close most of my life um so i've experienced bad and then i've also experienced like what it's like when a relationship works and when people

are kind to each other and get along together and it's like so you you realize like there's adjustments that everyone can make in this life to make the path smoother, to make it more just, you know, more harmonious. But it really changed how I think about humans. Like not just like my humans, but all humans, like everyone that I meet. I really think of them as babies. It's very strange. But I think it's kind of, I sort of decided to think that way

because I was recognizing, like, the way kids, like, sort of adopt your thoughts on things. And my kids talk a lot of shit. They're very funny because in my house we talk a lot of shit. We're always making fun of things, making fun of each other, and there's a lot of shit. They're very funny because in my house we talk a lot of shit. We're always making fun of things, making fun of each other, and there's a lot of laughs because, you know, that's what I do. I'm a comedian. And to see my kids talk shit and say funny things, it's like,

oh, my God, I know where you got that from. It's very obvious, but it's also they're very kind too, which is very – that makes me very proud. And it's very nice to be able to raise children in an environment where when they get older, you see them expressing the values that you appreciate and you think are important. Yeah, I can see. It's not too late. Yeah, I guess that's the advantage of having the XY chromosome. Yeah, it is a big advantage for women.

I know women that forgot to have kids. I mean, I say it that way. They didn't forget to have kids. But in our modern Western world, when people prepare for their life, they prepare for what society has established as the path that is the most celebrated, which is financial success. And a career that is something not just that you would be proud of, but that someone would respect. You know, like this is Debbie. She's a lawyer, you know, and she's a partner at her firm.

Like, oh, Debbie's happy. And then you meet Debbie and you're like, oh, Debbie's miserable. You know, she's very successful, but it's not harmonious. She's not happy. And that's, you know, it's so hard when you're in the middle of it and you're thinking so much about how other people view you. And for a lot of people, for whatever reason, they grew up in a way that they didn't either, they didn't get the respect that they deserved, or they were taught that the only way to get respect or the only way to be appreciated or to not feel like a failure is to be financially successful. But some of the biggest failures that I know are financially successful.

Some of the biggest messes of a life that I know are people that on paper are winners and they're not. They're just a disaster and they're they're filled with nonsense and they you know they don't value human experiences and love and camaraderie and creativity and education and just just extracting the most fun and the most satisfying life out of this experience instead they're you know they're concentrating on money you know they did they want to talk to you about numbers and expansion and you know are you investing and i have a business i'd like you to be a part of and there's this and then that and i was like oh and you don't realize that it's gonna fucking end man and you don't realize that i think sometimes until fucking end, man. And you don't realize it, I think, sometimes until someone close to you does die.

And then you go, oh, this is so temporary, and I'm not enjoying this process at all. And one of the things that I'm getting out of talking to you is that you have sought out these difficult but educational experiences. And that's what makes someone fascinating that's what makes someone cool to talk to you know the the path of the the most boring people to talk to are the people that are just thinking about making money they're so fucking boring it's so brutal talking to them because they just they they have this very narrow thing that they're obsessed with. And that thing gives them social status. When someone sees them, it's like, oh, there's Bill the millionaire. Oh, you know, he owns this company and this, this, and that.

I mean, Bill's right about to have a fucking heart attack. He's like got very little time left and doesn't even realize it. And he's taking Adderall all day to try to keep up and, and you know doing cocaine and cheating on his wife and fucking flying on jets everywhere and it looks on paper like he's the man but meanwhile he's a disaster and there's a lot of people like that yeah I agree with you I think I was fortunate enough to start figuring out that stuff at a relatively young age where I made the shift. And I think it's a very human thing to want external validation. Yes. You know?

For sure. It's like we're social creatures. We're these tribal creatures. Like we want the other people in the tribe to you know go yeah but I think the the internal validation at least for me were like basically you know I don't mean this like in a malignant way but like when you kind of stop caring what other people think about you and focus more on what you think about yourself. Like for me, that was like a huge shift.

Like a huge like giving up like doing things that like I thought that other people would think was cool, you know? Right. That's what a lot of people do, right? Yeah. That's what a lot of us do. And I certainly have been guilty of that in my life well every we all have like i have too like it's it's human it's not and it's not that big a dig and maybe there's a balance but then it's like as soon as i figured

out like like that internal validation was meant everything to me and the external was just it was fluff you know yeah it was this vapid thing that at the end of the day wasn't satisfying at all there's some satisfaction the respect of people that you respect yeah for sure yeah when you you see this person's an exceptional person and they enjoy being with you you're like oh maybe i'm okay and like going i mean there's actually a couple things i'd like to go back to you with what you were talking about. And one was like like the in reference to parents like I don't maybe I'll view them as babies now. But like as soon as I, you know, it's probably my late 20s where I started like viewing them as as human beings and like imperfect creatures like we all are. And like like all of a sudden I had all this empathy for them, you know?

Yeah. And there's a quote, and I think it's attributed to Plato, but I don't think it's him. I think it's more of, like, a 19th century thing. But it goes something like, be kind for everyone who's fighting their own battle. And so, like, I apply that to,. And so like I apply that to like people. I apply it to myself, you know.

It's like I'm definitely fighting my battles still. You know, I'm figuring some shit out, but it's not over. I'm sure it never will be. It never will be. Yeah. I don't imagine it ever is. But, you know, the process is interesting, and obviously breakthroughs are interesting.

But the – what was the other point? Yeah. Just the empathy for others working on yourself. Like there's an Evel Knievel quote. And I'm going to have to paraphrase because I can't remember it exactly. But he's like, you know, when I was young, I cared about what other what other people thought but now that I'm old I just care about what I think like and it's like it's kind of the same thing it's like yeah and yeah obviously I care what other people at least the people I care about I want them to think that I'm a decent person right sure you know that's normal yeah and and again going back to another thing you were talking about is like the most important thing in my life these days, you know, our personal relationships.

Yeah. It's like I'm at the point now where I'm, you know, and I'm sure you do the same thing. You curate your tribe, right? Yes. And like these relationships are like so rewarding. tribe right yes and like these relationships are like so rewarding and so honestly that's where i extract the most joy in my life from is these personal relationships yeah that's the what i'm most protective of too most protective of those people but also protective of not allowing anyone else in the tribe that i don't think you have to you have to curate the tribe yeah you have to be

very careful about that because i know so many people that have been involved in friendships and relationships with people that are just disastrous. And it's like a drowning person. You try to help them and you drown too. You know, some people just will fucking drag you in and other people, they'll elevate you. they'll elevate you. And, you know, it's obviously not, they're not perfect experiences. We're all human. But through even mistakes and then the reconciling of those mistakes and the communication through that,

it's an educational experience for everybody involved. And everyone is sort of on the same sort of path in the sense where you're trying to be a better version of who you are. You're trying to be a better person. And, you know, that might be being a better parent or being a better friend or being a better artist or whatever, whatever it is you're trying to do. But it really benefits you to be around other people that are also trying to do that thing too. Because, you know, one of the beautiful things about, um, for me about having this podcast is being able to communicate with so many interesting people and being able to have

these conversations like we're having right now, where I get to, uh, you know, I just met you today, you know, but get a sense of your journey and your life. And I think about it through your eyes and through your perspective. And it educates me. And I think it educates a lot of the people that are listening. And it will resonate with them. Like, oh, I kind of see where this guy's coming from. And it just expands our landscape of understanding. Yeah, I mean, that's ultimately, we're trying, like the word harmonious,

I've used it too many times probably, but that's really what it is. Like you just, it's not gonna be great all the time, but you want it to be as harmonious as possible. And you want to enjoy as much of it as possible. Absolutely. Yeah, and sometimes like with you and what you did, it's like embracing things that are really fucking difficult.

And through that, you get an understanding of yourself that's really not available to someone who doesn't go through struggle. That's the intent for sure. Yeah. Yeah. With no, again, it's that punctuated equilibrium. If there's not a traumatic, stressor say you're not you're not going to grow yeah you're just going to flatline and like maybe there's no negativity there but there's also no positivity right you're just dull and i think that's the problem with a

lot of people today and why they're medicated is that they're not experiencing life in a way that seems to resonate with them in a positive manner. It just doesn't seem right. It seems shitty and depressing. You know, I had this conversation with a buddy of mine the other day where he was talking about stages of his life where he was very depressed and we came to this conclusion, but during that time your life sucked and now your life is pretty cool and of course you're happier and that seems so simplistic to some people but

a lot of the i mean there's what without a doubt there's clinical depression there's people that have something wrong there's an imbalance whether it's a physical imbalance or a life imbalance or a trauma that they can't get over but my friends that i know that have had those dark moments in their life when their life turned around now they're in a great relationship now they have good friends now they live in a good community those people are fucking happier they they're doing a thing that they want to do with their life. Those people are happier. And that's a thing that we have this sort of binary view of what happiness is. And for some people, it's like, oh, I need to get on an SSRI. I need to get on this or that or I need to do something. SSRI, I need to get on this or that, or I need to do something. I need to, you know,

some sort of chemical intervention to straighten out my head. And that's not always the case. Like sometimes it's just, you got to get through that and come out on the other side and figure out what is the process of becoming a more fulfilled person? What's the process of becoming a more fulfilled person what's the process of living a harmonious life like how do i do that like how what what is the thing and i think we get a lot of the answers to that from talking to people and from listening to people talk about it and then from trying things and learning and and growing and that's something we're not that's not it's not a pop up like a public narrative it's not something that's being discussed it's not something that's not it's not a pop-up like a public narrative it's not something that's being discussed it's not something that's drilled in the kids heads like you you're gonna go through some shit but you got to trust in this process and you got to have you have to have a guidelines

in your mind of what you want to do you have to have ethics and morals you have to have compassion for other people because if you think it's all about you, you're never going to be happy. You're never, ever going to be happy. The narcissists and the people that are like deeply connected to their own wants and needs, they always get out of that feeling hollow and empty. And, you know, and those are the people that are you know doing blow all the time and just trying to find some sort of external method of elevating their a diversion yeah something yeah okay if i do this i'm i'm not going to think about the important stuff exactly exactly yeah like the whole i've always been intrigued by the the the greek or ancient greek notion of like human flourishing like uh the the greeks called it eudaimonia and it's just this

being you know endeavoring to be the best that you can be whatever that is and it's not talking about vocation or external stuff but you you as a person like figuring out I mean everything we've been talking about like figuring out what brings you joy applying yourself and it's it's hard you know it's like if it were easy and I've had this discussion with other friends who are you know about human flourishing and stuff and like and this is gonna to sound a little bit negative but i think there's a lot of people who can't be bothered you know who are fully capable of flourishing if they applied themselves right and for whatever reason just it's easier to do this

i think they also don't have the tools like they never like you got to think about like your life at a young age you sort of sought out those journeys when you can. And some people, they don't develop those tools. They fall into a system that's very unserving for them, whether it's a system of getting an education. Then you have student debt, student loan debt. And then so you have to get a job. And then you get a job that pays well because you have to pay off that debt. And then you buy a house. So now you have a mortgage and you have a family. So now you have responsibilities and you have to get a job, and then you get a job that pays well because you have to pay off that debt, and then you buy a house.

So now you have a mortgage, and you have a family. So now you have responsibilities, and you have all these things. But most of your day is spent doing something you absolutely don't want to do but is also not rewarding. There's a lot of things you don't want to do, but when you do them, you're like, God damn, I'm glad I did that. Very few people who are doing a 9-to-5 or longer job that they don't want to do have that feeling. There's just a lot of, you know, it's like that Thoreau quote, most men live lives of quiet desperation. Yeah. And that is satisfying and something that elevates you, something that with these experiences you gain insight as to why you think and what you think and what fever-minded capitalist where you just are constantly chasing numbers because it's rewarded by society.

That external validation that you get from driving a Mercedes, that thing that you get from having a nice house where people drive by and go, look at that guy's house. Yeah, someone you don't even know. Yeah. Like that's important to, what that person thinks. Sure. And that's what a lot of people like, right? They like to wear jewelry and look flashy, so when they show up everybody goes, wow, look at him, look

at her, look at them. Wow, they got the thing. They got that those sneakers that I can't buy. They got that fucking, that watch that I can't wear. Look at those glasses. Those are expensive. You know, like we live in this bizarre society where that is rewarded or at least highlighted so often in so many people's lives like that's what you're seeing it's like how they sell things in billboards and

on commercials and you know we don't realize that that's this is not going to bring you the joy that you're looking for. Or you get that short-term fix, but it evaporates instantly. You're constantly chasing the dragon. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I was reading about this Russian oligarch that they confiscated his yacht. And he's got this one yacht that's fucking insane. They confiscated another.

Confiscated his yachts and he's got this one yacht. That's fucking insane. They confiscated another he's got the second yacht That's just as preposterous maybe even more so that Operates on massive batteries so it can literally drive as silent as a Tesla It's you know fucking hundreds of feet long and like that's that world that you get into like of Constantly keeping up with the Joneses and all the other people, it's like it never ends. It never ends. You get to the highest levels of it all and it never ends. It's a series of false summits. It's like, I've arrived. Oh, wait a minute. No, I haven't. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. A series of false summits. It's all illusions. It's all mirage. Yeah. And then one day he's dead.

That's it. And then all the people around him are like, that guy was a fucking asshole. And that's a fucking disaster to die a multi-billionaire who was a fucking asshole who everybody hated. It's so strange. So much wasted potential. Yeah. But there's so many people that are just chasing it i saw this image of rupert murdoch with his wife and um he was on the beach and he literally looks

like an alien he he's just he's just like these bones and tissue and fat and he's with this woman and they were supposed to get married and it didn't work out and he was but he one of the things he was saying he's he's in his 90s it was like i don't know which wife he's on right but he was saying that um i'm looking forward to spending the second half of my life with her like hey bro what do you know that i don't know? You got about a month left. I mean, if everything goes great, you might have eight years. If everything goes great, but no one thinks about that while you're in the middle of it, all you're thinking about is keeping that fucking game going,

that thing that's gotten you all those accolades, that thing that's gotten you all that respect, and it's, a thing that's gotten you all those, that respect. And it's just numbers. Just crank it up. The dopamine hits. It's like checking your social media forever to the end of time. Checking the likes on your fucking Instagram post to the end of time. It's like it's empty.

And that's the path that so many people are on. You know, I just don't understand it. I'll never understand it but i get it you know i i get how you get sucked into that path yeah i totally understand the mechanism the mechanism yeah and it's just like it's like it hijacks the human reward systems of you being like the leader of the tribe but the leader of the tribe used to be the wise old warrior who had made the mistakes and proven his character and his mettle in combat and in life and had wisdom to impart on the others and could lead the tribe in a way that it could help these people and protect them. That just doesn't exist anymore. It's been hijacked by this system of monetary gain.

It's fucking weird. And obviously it's very easy for me to say. As someone who gets external validation and someone who makes money, it's easy for me to say. Because I've sort of removed myself from the hunger of that in a way. So I can go, oh, okay, I see what this is. Even though I've never been very motivated by money, I've certainly pursued it, but it's also not been anything that meant the most to me.

Money's freedom. Yeah. That's the way I look at it. Yes. It's like it opens options. Yes. But like money for the sake of money, like forget it. It can allow you to pursue

things that make you happy yeah but you have to know what it is and it's not being taught you know like think about the things that are being taught i mean perhaps they teach it a little bit in philosophy but most of the time if you're trying to get an education you try to get an education to get a job i mean that's the way it's geared towards now yeah it's not like the the ancient greeks where education was like here's how you live a good and virtuous life yeah but the people that i've talked to that are the most boring are the ones that are just pursuing money the people that i've talked to that are most fascinating are the ones that are trying to figure it out. And they've accumulated a lot of lessons and a lot of information.

And they can talk about things. And I can get something out of that conversation. Like I can go, oh, I see how this guy thinks. Oh, I see how he got there. Life's so profoundly weird. But it's just so cool. It's very cool. You know?

Or it sucks depending on where you are and what you're stuck in. You know? And some of it is beyond your control. Some of it is determinism. Some of it is your environment. Some of it is a shitty roll of the dice and you're working in a cobalt mine in the Congo. And there's a lot of that to it. But, and some people, they transcend that.

They figure their way out of that. And it's the hardest journey. Yeah, it's like the money thing. There's been a couple occasions where I've had people reach out to me, I don't know, 20 years ago. A friend of mine from the Music Days was like, hey, there's this Nirvana record that came out. It's like a collection of B-sides and bits and pieces that I guess the label put out to make some money.

And they're like, hey, you play on a couple of songs. You're probably owed some money. And I'm like, I started thinking about it. And I'm like, ugh, like hire an attorney? Like what? Sue the label? sue the band and like no right it's for money that i'm sure is not life-changing and even if it even if it was the process just made me so tired that it was like and then more recently something similar

happened with sound garden like someone close to the band said hey there's these Soundgarden box sets that are out and you play on a couple of songs like you probably owed some money and the same thing it's like no I'm not I'm not even gonna start down that path yeah because even if it did make you money it would probably rob you of some happiness oh just let it go it's like you know it's like yeah i mean i guess it's it kind of sucks that like whoever like the bean counters at the label are like uh fuck that guy you know but okay yeah you know that's fine i'll be all right you got something from that no matter what you you can't put it in you know a bank account but it's what you got from that is invaluable it's like you were there you you have that it changed you as a person yeah it's like the that experience yeah it's a it's a i mean at this point it's not a huge

component of who i am but it was definitely necessary steps on on this journey and i'm glad i'm so glad things turned out the way they did you know like i never look back and go i wish you know i was this like rich rock guy and on so many levels i'm glad that i didn't a lot of those guys are miserable oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know a few. I know a few, too. Yeah, yeah. That's the saddest thing in the world is when you meet a miserable success. Even rock stars, even someone who's an artist, right?

And for so many of them, they're only happy when they're on top. And it's not even necessarily happy. It's like euphoria. There's like a thing about it like oh my god i'm the fucking man you know look at me i got the long hair and the fucking guitar and everybody loves me and it's just yeah it's almost a trap it's almost like a gilded cage that you're you're a part of. Yeah. Like, look at me. Yeah. Yeah, just, it would be cool to have that

financial security and then do something totally different. Right. You know. Yeah. It's also a trap and, you know,

the trap of fame. It's like, you've really, it's hard to know people. It's hard to get to know people because everybody's

approaching you in a very alien way i mean that was when when i was young and obviously not on that huge level but that was kind of when i got fired from sound garden that was kind of part of the crisis where i was like it was easy to put on the identity of like like, being the bass player for Soundgarden. Right. You know? And, like, I was, like, the de facto cool guy. Sure.

If you have a conversation with someone at dinner, what do you do? I'm the bass player for Soundgarden. Or, you know, like, women would show interest. Oh, yeah. And I, you know, especially being, like, a painfully shy young man, that was awesome. painfully shy young man. That was awesome. You know, but then it was like,

when I did have that taken away, and it did knock me for a loop for a bit, but it also helped me recognize like, oh, I should just focus on Jason, the dude. You know, not Jason, the bass player for Soundgarden. Right. And that was kind of the slap in the face that kind of brought me around. But you had to go through that. Yeah.

Yeah. But that's the thing about going through something that sucks. Like when you get on the other end of it and you achieve equilibrium, you go, okay, it was actually probably good for me. I wholeheartedly believe I came out the other end better on every level. And, like, I'm happier now at 55 than I've ever been in my entire life. And each year gets better, you know? That's success.

Yeah. So, yeah, exactly. That's the way I look at it. Yeah. Why did you want to do this? Do what? This podcast. I'm going gonna be honest to give my r28k size some oxygen you're the race to alaska oh okay but also you know i'm a fan

um i think the first podcast i listened to you was the one you did with james from metallica oh that was great the The beekeeping? Yeah. So cool. Yeah, he's very cool. He's an interesting guy. Yeah, I knew him a little bit back in the day, but yeah, the beekeeping stuff was fascinating. Yeah, I got connected to him through my friend Jim Brewer. Jim Brewer, who's a long time,

he's been my friend for like 30 years. Oh, the comedian. Yeah, yeah. He opens for Metallica. Okay. Which is hilarious, because he's a giant Metallica fan and he doesn't need to do that. And I think they just offered it to him because they're friends with him and he decided that would be a fun thing to do.

And since he's such a Metallica fan, he speaks to those people. It's not like just a regular comedian opening for a band they're not interested in and the crowd doesn't engage. He talks about Metallica and he has material. And Jim is one of the most prolific and interesting guys that I know in terms of like his stand up. Like he can just Jim can like something can happen in the news today and Jim can go on stage and do like 10 minutes on it and just rant and rave. And he's such a fucking cartoonish character. He's so funny. So watching him open for Metallica is a fucking hoot.

It's so hilarious because he's in his element, and he's also a brilliant comedian and just such a character. And so he reached out to me. He's like, Hey man, you should have James Hatfield on. He's fucking awesome. Fucking be a great podcast. I was like, let's do it. Let's do it. You know? So having a mom was pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. So that was my, my gateway to your, your show. And that, yeah, it put the hooks in me. It's like, okay, this is good. Well, thanks man. Appreciate it. I'm glad we did this too. Yeah. So let's tell everybody about your site so maybe we can get that goal oh i mean we already talked about it well how do i get to it like what is what's the website so the website's super

nautiloid.com super nautiloid yeah one word so super so it's a play on black sabbath super not right but the nautiloid is is like the prehistoric marine creature. What is it? It's like a squid with a shell. Oh, okay. Super knotaloid, race to Alaska, 2023. Yep. Nice.

Okay, so superknotaloid.com. And the link to the GoFundMe is up there as well? Yeah, down the page. Are you going to document this at all on either social media or on YouTube or anything like that? So, Barrett has a buddy who's a documentary filmmaker

who he's going to do some stuff on it. So, like, maybe if like enough people kick in like five or 10 bucks, we actually pay Tad to do a documentary cause he's, he's a,

he's a professional. He's not an amateur. So it's, it's going to cost some money to have it done. Right. But Tad's interested in doing it. I think he just needs to be remunerated proper, properly,

you know, in order to complete the project. Um, but yeah um that's been talked about and it may happen well maybe we can make it happen um so the other other thing that i would say to you is i think you should write a book so i i can tell a story about my my brush with the literary world if you want okay. Okay, sure. So I actually, I was at this juncture, another juncture, basically before I went to grad school.

And I was like, ah, maybe I should write a book, you know? Maybe it's time or whatever. And actually I got an agent and i wrote a book proposal actually wrote the proposal when i was in buenos aires and i remember i was sitting in this cafe in buenos aires so it's like winter time down there and it's pouring down rain and there's like water leaking from the roof and there's pots and pans around the cafe, like catching the rainwater and on my laptop. And I remember finishing the proposal and it's like, cool. So when I get back to the States, I'll, I'll meet with the agent and, you know, and like there was so many, um, parallels, the, the, I'm, I'm sure you've

been in that world too with the literary world, like the business side of it, and with that in the music world. So this agent's promising me the world, you know, like the classic music biz thing. Like, you know, you boys are going to be bigger than Led Zepp, you know, kind of thing. And I'm taking it with a grain of salt. I'm like, okay, you know, I'm being pretty moderate about the whole thing. So I finished the proposal, and I thought it was decent okay you know I'm being pretty moderate about the whole thing so I finished the

proposal and I thought it was decent you know um gave it to him and then got another meeting with him and some other dude and they're they're like sans you know kind of making these radical suggestions as far as like changing the thrust of the narrative and things like that and i'd be open to like tweaking it but like you know if it's my book it's going to be my vision yeah you know like any any creative project and uh and then they started suggesting like a a co-writer which is code for a ghost writer right and it's like you know i'm know, I'm not Hemingway, but I think I can put some sentences together according to other people who told me that who know these things.

And so basically I got accepted to grad school and I got a Tillman scholarship that paid for grad school. And it's like, okay, I'm going to grad school and put the book on the back burner. But it'll probably happen someday. I would suggest that you just write it yeah and then try to sell it I've had other people suggest that as well yeah I think that's the only way to do it I try to do it the other way a long time ago and I had a disastrous I'm wound up giving the money back mmm I just had a couple conversations with them I don't want to do it like this.

Like, nope, done. It just wasn't what I wanted to do. What I wanted to do was just write what I was thinking about stuff. And they had this very specific idea. They had a package that they wanted it to fit into. It was like, eh. Totally similar to my experience. Yeah, I mean, that's what they do.

You know, it's like the scorpion and the frog, right? It's in my nature. Yeah, it's just what they do. Yep. Yeah. Well, listen, brother, I really appreciate it, man. I really enjoyed our conversation. Me as well.

Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. And good luck, and don't fall in the water. Have a good time doing that. We'll be very safe. All right. Like, I was reading the safety regulations and it's like this isn't very hippy dippy sure yeah do you have any social media or anything

like that you can tell people about just that just that and i created the site myself it's my first foray into that world at all um looks professional it's like one page it's like that's all you need yeah that's all you need. That's all you need. I did design the Supernautaloid logo, which I'm kind of proud of. Cool. Because it's like, I don't know if you're familiar with Black Sabbath Volume 4. Sure.

Yeah, my favorite Sabbath record. One of my favorite records. So it's an homage to that, obviously. So I kind of mixed in Sabbath and Maritime and, yeah. Cool. All right. Well, again, I really enjoyed this. And thanks yeah. Cool. All right. Well, again, I really enjoyed this. And thanks for doing this.

Appreciate it. You're welcome. I enjoyed it very much. Cool. Thanks, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye.