The Joe Rogan Experience - #1980 - Michio Kaku

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

Dr. Michio Kaku, PhD, is a professor of theoretical physics, host of the "Science Fantastic" radio program, and author of several books. His latest is "Quantum Supremacy: How the Quantum Computer Revolution Will Change Everything." It is available now.www.mkaku.org

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Good to see you. Glad to be on the show again. My pleasure. The last time was fascinating. And you have sent me down a rabbit hole of UFO stories and reports and fascinating stuff. But let's talk about your latest book, which is on quantum computing, which is equally interesting, if not more interesting, because it might lead us

to become aliens. We'll talk about that too. Please. So first of all, if you could just tell everybody what it means, what is quantum computing and how does it work? Well, there's a race going on, a race between China, the United States, between IBM and Google, a race to dominate the next generation of computers because Silicon Valley could become a rust belt. Think about that. The digital computer of today could be like the abacus of years gone by. We're talking about the computer of today could become obsolete with this race to perfect the next generation, which is quantum computers.

Instead of computing on transistors, we're computing on atoms. Think about that. This is the ultimate computer. There's nothing smaller than what you can do with atoms, and that's what these quantum computers compute with. And it raises all sorts of problems. The CIA is worried that quantum computers will break right through the CIA and any kind of a barrier being placed around your secrets. Industries are going to be created out of nothing.

Medicine is going to be turned upside down. Energy production, society, entertainment, every aspect of society will be changed with quantum computers, and that's why there's this race, a race to perfect the quantum computer. How far from the finish line do you think they are? We're still years away. First of all, we've actually built one. Different companies are fielding quantum computers. They're kind of primitive.

But some computers, some quantum computers, are actually millions of times more powerful than our supercomputer for certain definite tasks. But it may take another decade or so before we get all the kinks out and it becomes part of everyday life. But it's going to change everything in the same way that the transistor changed everything. The world economy, medicine, art, science, everything was changed with the microchip. Same thing with the quantum computer.

It's very difficult for us. There's only been a few science fiction authors who have been able to do this successfully, where they can accurately predict what the future is going to look like. I mean, even they're off, usually. You know, H.G. Wells had some pretty good ideas. But are we looking at something that we almost don't have a reference for, that it's so mind-blowingly different and much more powerful than anything we've experienced so far, that it's difficult for us to imagine how much it's going to change the world?

Well, to imagine how it's going to change the world, think of the progression of the computer. For thousands of years, the computer was basically an analog device. For thousands of years, the computer was basically an analog device. We used sticks, beads, levers, gears, pulleys, cranks in order to do simple calculations. That was the first era of computation. And that meant that we could keep track of things, which we couldn't do before. Then World War II hit, and all of a sudden we had to break the German code and that required using electricity and using all sorts of vacuum tubes to crack the German code.

And then we went into the second era where we compute on digital and binary. So zeros and ones, zeros and ones. Now we're entering the third era. A natural progression from gears, levers, pulleys to vacuum tubes and transistors and then to atoms. This is the final step in the evolution of the computer. When we compute on atoms, these are atomic computers, nothing more powerful than that. So when you think about how

much it would change life as we know it, that's when things get difficult to understand, right? Because if we think about just trying to imagine what it would be like living in New York City in 1820 and then imagining what it's like today, 200 years later, they would have never been able to guess. What kind of things is going to change? guess. What kind of things is going to change? Everything. For example, think of biology and medicine. To test a drug, what do we do? We get thousands, hundreds of different kinds of petri dishes, put the drug in, put the tissue in, and just cross your fingers and hope and pray that of these thousands of dishes, one of them will create a super wonder drug. That's why it costs upwards of a billion dollars to market the next wonder drug, because it's all done by trial and error. Now, think of putting that in the memory of a supercomputer,

a quantum computer. It analyzes whether or not germs can be destroyed by this substance at the speed of light. Not just one dish, but hundreds, thousands of dishes of these things can be tested at the same time in the memory, the memory of a computer. So we're talking about digital medicine, digital chemistry, virtual chemistry. Think about that. Chemistry without chemicals. Biology without biology. So that's the beauty of this technology, that we can mimic atoms. We can mimic molecules and do virtual experiments in the memory of a computer rather than using test tubes like we used to do, that we still do today. And we could possibly see things that are just theoretical right now, like with medicine,

like regenerating limbs or regrowing spinal tissue for a person who's been paralyzed, things along those lines. In fact, even immortality is on the table. Realize that scientists who've looked at the aging process realize that the reason why we never understood aging is that aging is the buildup of error. That's what aging is, the buildup of mistakes in the replication of DNA. But what happens if you could put DNA in a computer? Then you can see where the aging takes place,

and then we can begin perhaps to slow down the aging process, maybe even become immortal. What about reversing it? What about old women become young hot ladies again? I think that would be a problem. Everything's on the table because we're talking about changing the fabric of life itself. You know, the greatest quantum computer is Mother Nature. Think about it. How does Mother Nature do photosynthesis? How does Mother Nature create trees and flowers out of nothing? It's all chemicals and molecules. That's what quantum computers can do.

When you think about that, just to describe that complexity that you just described, do you ever wonder if there's some sort of ongoing code in the whole universe itself? Like, there's a reason why all these things happen. There's a reason why the mycelium and the trees have this relationship, but the fungus and the earth and the soil and the animals have this perfect symbiosis. Well, that was the subject of my previous book, The God Equation, where we try to find one theory that allows us to calculate everything, starting with the Big Bang, then the creation of galaxies and stars, planets, finally the creation of life, photosynthesis,

and here we are talking about this on a podcast. So yeah, we're talking about one equation, which I call the God equation, which I write about in my book, The God Equation, but there's a problem. The problem is that the theory is so complicated that no human has been able to solve the consequences of this equation. That's where quantum computers can come in. Quantum computers can solve the equation and then test it to see whether or not it really is a theory of everything or just the imagination of some physicist. So that was my previous book, The God Equation. So that's why I decided to write this book, Quantum Supremacy, because it may eventually take a quantum computer to calculate with what is called string theory. And I'm one of the founders of string theory.

And we think that is Einstein's theory that eluded him for the last 30 years of his life. This quantum computing creating the answer to this God molecule or this God equation, if this does happen, what would that mean to you? To a person who's studied this and been a scientist your whole life and the way you look at the world, how much would that change? How much would that change if there was some sort of a provable equation as to why things become ever more complex and universes exist and people exist? Well, that's my childhood dream. As I mentioned, when I was eight years old, everything changed in my life. A great scientist had just died, and all the newspapers said that he could not finish his final and greatest theory. And they put a picture of his desk on the news.

The desk was open and unfinished. So I was fascinated by that story. That story changed my life because I said to myself, why couldn't he finish that theory? Why don't I try to finish that theory? That's amazing. So I went to the library and I looked up this man. This man's name was Albert Einstein. The theory was the theory of everything. An equation went as long that would allow us to, quote, read the mind of God. These are Einstein's words. So I said to myself, that's for me. That's what I want to do for the rest of my life. So now

we have the theory. It's called string theory. There have been TV documentaries on the subject, but it's not testable. So I think that a quantum computer may one day be powerful enough to test it in the memory of a computer. However, we have to be careful. Remember that novel, The Restaurant at the End of the Galaxy? What happened in that novel was the aliens of the future created a supercomputer to calculate the theory of everything, the ultimate theory. So the computer chugged and chugged and spit out the answer. And the answer was, the meaning of the universe was 42. So much for that. So I would hope that our quantum computer, computing on string theory, I hope would not give us the number 42 as the meaning of reality.

Maybe we're just too dumb to know what that means. Yeah. But that's what motivated me. Well, that's a beautiful motivation. Just thinking about you being an 8-year-old looking at Einstein's, the photograph of Einstein's desk, that's amazing. I love stories like that. I love origin stories because I've always wondered with someone like you. Yeah, well, that changed my life. And then when I was in high school, I decided to take it one step further,

and I decided to build an atom smasher, a particle accelerator in my mom's garage. So I assembled 300 pounds of transformer steel, 22 miles of copper wire, and I assembled a 6-kilowatt, 2.3-million-electron-vol-betaton particle accelerator in my mom's garage. In high school?

In high school, right. Wow. Every time I turned it on, I would blow out every single circuit breaker in the house. It consumed six kilowatts of power. My poor mom comes home and she hears this pop, pop, pops out as I blow out every circuit breaker in the house. And she must have said to herself, every circuit breaker in the house. And she must have said to herself, why couldn't I have a son who plays baseball? Why not basketball? Why can't he find a nice Japanese girlfriend? How come he builds these machines in the garage? Well, that machine got me accepted to Harvard, and that began my career. That began my career

as a theoretical physicist. What were you able to do and that began my career. That began my career as a theoretical physicist. What were you able to do with that machine? Well, I was able to create a magnetic field of 10,000 gauss. That is 20,000 times the Earth's magnetic field. If you got too close to my machine, it would pull the fillings out of your teeth. Really? Yeah. So you had to be very careful. What about objects that are close to it? Scissors and things. Hammers. Fly, fly in the air, right. So you had to be very careful coming next to my machine. Oh, my God.

So, like, compare that to, like, you can't even go near one of those scanners, those MRI machines, right? Magnetic resonance imaging. That's right, MRI. You can't have any metal near those, right? Yeah, right. But that's nothing like it. And there are about 10,000 gauss to you, but the same magnetic field as my machine. Oh, okay, okay.

So my machine is comparable to the machines that you see in the hospital today. Wow. That's crazy. And you built that when you were in high school. That's right. Is that a photo of it? That's a photo of one of those? Yeah, that's the photo right there.

You see on the left, you can see that's 22 miles of copper wire. You see the capacitor bank, a cloud chamber on the right where I photographed antimatter, because that was the whole experiment to play with antimatter. And yeah, the cables are hooked up, and it's hooked up to six kilowatts that comes out of the wall socket, drained every single ounce of power from my mom's garage. Wow. Look at young Michio. Look at you, you handsome fella. Well, that's the Betatron particle accelerator. That's amazing.

2.3 million electron volt generator of electrons. So you were able to photograph antimatter with that? Well, with the cloud chamber, yes. I was able to photograph the tracks of antimatter, tracks of positrons or anti-electrons that are emitted from sodium-22. And I proved that it was antimatter because they bent the wrong way in a magnetic field. Ordinary electrons should bend clockwise. These bent counterclockwise in a magnetic field. That proved conclusively that it was antimatter that I was photographing.

Wow. How old were you at the time? I was about 17. I was so dumb. I'm pretty dumb now, but I was so dumb when I was 17. That's amazing that you were spending your time doing this. Right. I was listening to Led Zeppelin. But, you know, like I said, I was chasing after this dream of an eight-year-old child wondering, is there a theory of everything? It's an amazing dream. Yeah. Now, where did you get the

designs for this? Oh, well, these designs come from an x-ray machine done by Donald Kirst, who was one of the inventors of the Betatron. And so a lot of the groundbreaking work was done by him. And now they're incorporated in most hospitals. Most hospitals have one that creates x-rays for patients. So was there a schematic online that you duplicated? Did you devise this yourself? Yeah, no, there was a schematic online. I mean, there was no line back then. Oh, of course, online, excuse me. Yeah, in the library, there was a schematic. But I had to fill in the details.

I had to do the equations to calculate how many turns of wire, how many gauss. I needed 10,000 gauss in order to bend tracks of 2.3 million electron volts. All the calculations had to be done ahead of time to make sure it would work. Isn't it funny that the universe is so common, or excuse me, the Internet rather, is so common that I automatically for a second forgot that we were children when you were younger than me, or when you were younger. That's right. There was no Internet.

There was no Internet at all. Nothing online back then. It was just books. It was just books. It was just books. So you had to have a real hunger for information to go and seek this stuff out. That's right. Did you have any particular high school teachers that were influential or inspirational? Well, fortunately, I grew up in Palo Alto, which is now ground zero for Silicon Valley.

So luckily, there were other physicists in the area because they work for varying associates and different electronics companies. So it wasn't a total vacuum. I was able to get advice, especially in the magnetic field and the cloud chamber and also the vacuum tube that contained the particles that I was accelerating. It was good to have real physicists there in Palo Alto because of that fact. Oh, that's amazing. So were they willing to consult with you and discuss this? Yeah, in general, right. So I would talk to them about how to build the magnetic field and to calculate using Maxwell's equations the geometry of the particle accelerator. So yeah, I would go and visit these physicists because Palo Alto was to become

ground zero for Silicon Valley. It's such a fascinating image of seeing this one super genius physicist who's teaching classes get a visit by a teenage super genius physicist. And he's like, oh, he's one of us. He'd catch you when you're a teenager. That's very interesting. As soon as they talked to them, he immediately knew what I was doing, so they would help me. That's crazy. Yeah. That's so awesome. Now, in application of this thing, one of the things that we're seeing right now, when we're talking about quantum computing, back to that, one of the things we're seeing now is ChatGPT.

ChatGPT, which is this fascinating AI program that essentially scours the entire internet for answers for things and is so good at it the answers for things for just just data people are getting diagnosed with certain diseases based on symptoms and blood work and it's super accurate uh legal papers it could fill out legal forms and it's it's wild the capacity that it has right now. You can pass the bar exam that way, too. The bar exam can be passed with a chatbot. Yeah, it's like 98%, right? Now, here's the question. If quantum computing gets involved in AI, what are we looking at? Well, first of all, AI is a software program. We're talking about homogenizing different kinds of essays on the web, splicing them together, and then passing it off as your latest creation.

Basically, plagiarism using digital computers. It's a software question. However, quantum computers is bigger than that. Quantum computers is a hardware question, where it actually increases your ability to do much more than with an ordinary digital computer. So the two of them, the chatbots that are a revolution in software and then quantum computers, which are a revolution in hardware, when they get together, watch out. So we're talking about an extremely powerful alliance between software and hardware. Now, also, as you know, chatbots will also lie, cheat, swindle, joke, and do all sorts of crazy

things. If you're a high school kid, you could write all sorts of science fiction scenarios, and some chatbot may grab pieces of that nonsense and incorporate it into their essay. Oh, interesting. So it can't discern what's accurate. Exactly. The whole point. This is the whole ball of wax. Chatbots do not know what is correct or incorrect.

They just gather information so they could be gamed. That's right. All they do is homogenize, cut up existing things that sound human, put it together, and then people say, my God, that sounds like a human wrote it. Of course, a human did write it. Isn't that interesting that they could game that also if they wanted to find out what percentage of people believed a certain thing? If they had some bad actors, some foreign governments that decided they were going to spread narratives as widely as possible. And ChatGBT just gathers up all this information. It could give you an incorrect understanding of

what's happening in the world. It can give you an incorrect understanding of politics, of economics. The whole point is that even though there's a good aspect to all these software programs, the downside is that you can fabricate truth because they cannot tell the difference between what is false and what is true. That's very interesting. If you talk to the chat bot and say, do you know the difference between correct and incorrect? And they say, no, it's just on the web. They're just instructed to cobble together existing paragraphs, splice them together and polish it up, and then spit it out. But is it correct? It doesn't care. It doesn't know. So it is essentially like an amazing resource

of information that's very flawed, that can't discern and can't think. I do this. I have this problem all the time. I'm a professor, and I give assignments to the students, sometimes write a term paper. So what do they do? Some of them plagiarize. Oh, how do you catch them? Well, you read the essay, and then you read another essay, and you say, I've heard that before. Oh, you did it the old-fashioned way. Right, right, right. The old-fashioned way. But you see, that's what a chatbot is. A chatbot is like a teenager that plagiarizes other people's essays, passes it off as their own.

Now, I'm a scientist. We like to think about things that are creative, new, innovative, things that will change our perception of the world. None of that, absolutely none of that comes from a chatbot. A chatbot simply rearranges pre-existing essays. That's all it does. The thing is, though, that's all it does now. That's what's interesting. What's interesting is what you're talking about with quantum computing and the insane computational power.

Right. And then apply that to having access to all of the information. Right. But there's a good aspect, too. You know, when I write a book, my publisher has a fact checker, a fact checker that goes through all the different statements that I make

to make sure that they're all correct. There is no fact checker for chatbots. Let me repeat that again. There is no fact checker for chatbots. That is the whole ball of wax. That's the reason why they're so dangerous because they don't know. These chatbots. That is the whole ball of wax. That's the reason why they're so dangerous because they don't know. These chatbots are machines. They don't know what is correct, what is incorrect. It's all the same to them. That's the danger that they could incorporate

teenagers ranting and raving about all sorts of garbage and put that in with articles that sound reasonable. That's the problem. Now, here's where quantum computers come in. Quantum computers can act as a fact checker. You can ask a quantum computer to remove all the garbage, remove all the nonsense in these articles, and it'll do that. So, in other words, the hardware may be a check on some of the wild statements made by software. But the problem with that is who's the arbiter of the wild statements made by software. But the problem with that is, who's the arbiter of the information? Who decides what's real and what's not?

How does the chatbot decide? Is the chatbot ideologically biased? The chatbot doesn't. The chatbot simply spits it out. The quantum computing does. Yeah, quantum computing can then... It's going to be able to discern what's real and what's not real, even if it's propaganda?

If there are gradations of what is true, like it is partially true or whatever, it could give you the detailed understanding of what could be misconstrued, what is partially correct, what is misleading but partially correct. You see what I'm saying? Yes. Right now, the chatbot just splices it together like an editor. That's all it is, an editor, not a fact checker, and spits out cobbled together articles that sound reasonable, but there could be dynamite

inside some of these articles that were spliced into what was proposed. With a quantum computer, you can fact check things. And then you can say, this is 90% correct, this is totally wrong, this is sometimes correct, and you get gradations of what is correct and incorrect. Well, if you can get an objectively accurate fact checker, that would be a huge step up from what we have today, because a lot of people have very little faith in certain fact checkers. And when you find out that they're ideologically biased or they're governmentally biased, and if you could have something that could just tell you.

Have you even paid attention to how Twitter is doing it now where they have community notes? Have you seen this? No, I haven't. It's interesting. Say someone makes a statement about something controversial, climate change, whatever. And then this controversial statement gets refuted in the community notes. And then people will start commenting. gets refuted in the community notes. And then people will start commenting and really intelligent,

very well-read people on specific subjects will chime in with peer-reviewed papers and all these different statistics that show. And then Twitter will correct it. And it will say, readers have said, and then put up the relevant information. Right. See, that's what chatbots do not do today. They have no understanding of correct or incorrect, false and true. No understanding of that. But with hardware coming into the picture that is more advanced, then yeah, you're talking about machines that can do that automatically. But is the problem who controls that machine? Like say if China gets a hold of one of those machines first, if they develop a quantum computer first and they start implementing it. Well, we have to make sure that our quantum computers can check other people's quantum computers to make sure that they're not fudging the facts.

Right. Now, remember that if this is not done legally, if there are no laws passed in this direction and it's like the Wild West, then, of course, the politicians get involved, and it becomes a real mess. Now, we do know that you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. Therefore, there are limits to free speech. We get that. But how do you make limits on statements that are written on the web that no human can possibly follow? That's where quantum computers can come in. Quantum computers are powerful enough to survey the entire landscape and give reasonable

rebuttals to things that are just outrageous. Well, more than that, it's going to be able to instantaneously change how we interact with each other in terms of language barriers, all these issues that we have currently. I'm sure you're aware of Google had their earbuds. There was a feature where, say, if you went to Spain and didn't speak Spanish, you could talk to it and they would talk to it and it would translate back and forth. So you could have a real time conversation. I'm not sure how good is it. How good is that, Jim? But if there's something like augmented reality and we have something like that, you're going to be able to instantaneously translate what people are saying. Yeah. There'll be no language barriers for people.

We'll be able to – I think that would change just human perception across the world, just the way we view each other. It's so easy to think of each other as being different because we speak a different language and we live in a different part of the planet. But that would literally change how we interact with each other. ideas out of which correct ideas emerge. And this does not happen on the internet because, of course, with chatbots, everything is cobbled together, cut, spliced, and simply glued together with scotch tape, masquerading as an essay. So with fact-checking, I think it's going to be different because unless we do fact-checking, the politicians will get involved and this is going to be a real mess. So I would hope that the industry does fact-checking by itself rather than having politicians do it. It's such an important point that you said where you said that the bad ideas have to exist so the good ideas triumph. And

that's really an argument against censorship on the internet, which is another problem that people have, especially censorship when it comes to something being ideologically based. But when you're thinking about quantum computing, I think this is small potatoes, right? I think we're looking at literally being able to change how we interact with the universe. We were talking on our last podcast about the preponderance of evidence that there's things that operate inside of our atmosphere that are beyond imagination. They operate with no visible means of propulsion. They move at insane speeds. We don't understand what they are.

If we think about what quantum computing is going to be capable of, that's the kind of stuff we're thinking about. Right. Yeah. You see, quantum computers are the ultimate computers because they're computing on atoms. If there are aliens in outer space, and I think there are, it means that they also have perfected quantum computers, and they can do calculations that are far beyond anything that we can calculate with. Like, for example, a wormhole. A wormhole, in principle, is a gateway between two distant points in space and time,

which allows you to break the Einstein barrier and go faster than the speed of light. But the calculations are horrendous. It may take a quantum computer to sort through what happens when you go through a wormhole and wind up on the other side of the universe, and the aliens probably already have done that. They've probably had centuries of experience with quantum computers, because that's the ultimate computer. You can't compute on anything smaller than an atom. And they probably already have used the quantum computers to navigate through wormholes, let's say, hypothetically. It's so fascinating when you think of where we were just a few thousand years ago, or a few hundred years

ago, to where we are now. And then you imagine the invention of quantum computing. You imagine everything, just the whole idea of whatever we think of current computer progression just goes out the window. And it's insane calculation capabilities. We could be able to do something like that in the future. Right. Quantum computers allows us to calculate things that are way beyond our ability to calculate today, like going through a wormhole or warp drive, or even the question of multiple universes. People ask the question, how come quantum computers are so powerful? It's because they compute in parallel universes. This is the multiverse, which of course Marvel Comics has discovered and the Oscars have discovered recently.

But the multiverse idea comes from quantum physics. Electrons can be two places at the same time. Now, some people have a hard time getting their head around that, but get used to it. That's why we have lasers. That's why we have transistors. That's why we have the Internet. That's why we have this conversation. Because the electrons that are in this microphone dance between universes at the atomic level. And so we have to get used to the idea that quantum computers introduces a whole new way of looking at reality. quantum computers introduces a whole new way of looking at reality. Now, reality is not a Marvel comic, but the idea of the multiverse comes from quantum physics, and that is electrons can be

multiple places at the same time. Do you think this understanding of this and this race towards quantum computing and that kind of, and whatever is after that. Do you think that is a natural course of the universe, that this happens whenever things are intelligent and sentient, they keep striving to create something? I think so. I think on the other end of the Milky Way galaxy, there's probably a young alien who is also talking about quantum computers, galaxy, there's probably a young alien who is also talking about quantum computers, and they've probably already perfected it and have had experience with quantum computers maybe for thousands of years. Well, and also possibly every step in humanity's journey along the way to that point exists out there. That's right. And all the goals of this journey, maybe they've already

accomplished. Like, for example, we mentioned the possibility of slowing down the aging process. Quantum computers will be able to isolate where genetically at the DNA level, where errors build up, causing what is called aging. In which case, maybe immortality is something that the aliens have already cooked up. In which case, we have to deal with a whole new concept of biology and medicine, because they probably already have had thousands of years experience with quantum computers. They manipulate molecules probably as part of their life. And every step along the way probably exists too. So that might be, if you wanted to have a logical reason to why aliens visit us if they do if they really are

aliens that would be the answer like there there's probably a shepherding there's probably some probably a natural course that happens with intelligent life where it develops this power while it's still a territorial tribal animal and it's still got these barbaric instincts. It still engages in war. It still engages in theft and deception. And all while about to break through to the next level of intelligence and capability, which may exist, which may be in the entire universe. Yeah, I think that all civilizations in the galaxy probably go through the same basic stages. That first they use rocks and stones to settle differences, but then eventually they begin to understand chemistry

and substances and properties of materials, and then beyond that they discover atoms and the ability to manipulate atoms. I think that's a normal progression, and I think that progression is now hitting the computer industry. Now we're going from microchips to atoms, quantum computers, and I think that the aliens in outer space probably went through that phase maybe thousands of years ago, in which case they used the quantum computers to cure cancer, cure aging, diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease.

These are diseases at the molecular level. And they've been able to probably use what is called CRISPR technology to cut up DNA, to cut up proteins in order to cure many of these diseases, in which case they may be immortal. There's a famous quote from, I think it was Einstein, where he said, I don't know what World War III will be fought with, what World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. Do you ever worry that, I mean, the reason why, if it made sense that aliens would be here, it's because they want to stop us from blowing ourselves up. Do you ever worry that, like, we're so close to being able to figure out so many things, to be able to change all of your ideas, to be able to change the world fundamentally forever, but we could ruin it? Yeah, well, I think we're headed

toward what we physicists call a type one civilization, a civilization which has the power to self-annihilate for the first time, but also the possibility of becoming a planetary civilization, a civilization of the entire planet. That's called a Type 1 civilization. They control the weather. They control volcanoes and earthquakes. They harness the power of the entire Earth. Then there's Type 2.

They harness the power of the sun. And, for example, Star Trek would be a typical Type II civilization. They've colonized a fraction of the Milky Way galaxy. Then there's Type III. Type III would be galactic, that they roam the galactic space lanes. They use black holes as their power supply. They use wormholes to go zipping around the Milky Way galaxy. And the empire of Star Wars would be a typical type 3 civilization. But what are we? On this scale, we are type 0.

Yeah. We get our energy from dead plants. We settle our differences with weapons. And, yeah, we're type 0. But you can see that we're headed toward type one. The language of type one will be probably English. The dominant languages on the internet are English and Mandarin Chinese. And we're seeing the beginning of a type one sports, the Olympics and soccer. We're seeing the beginning of a type 1 fashion with Gucci and Chanel. The beginning of a type 1 music with rock and roll and rap and different trends. We're seeing the beginning of

a type 1 civilization emerging right before our eyes. But with that is the power to self-destroy ourselves. Because we have the ability to use nuclear weapons, create designer germs, and mess up the weather. And so it's a race against time to see which trend will dominate, the trend toward becoming a planetary civilization versus the trend toward self-destruction. It's fascinating that you think of culture as being a major part of a type one civilization. Things like rap music, things like fashion, because of the sharing of these ideas globally and the adopting of these ideas and these art forms globally. Yeah, you see a planetary civilization like type one has a local culture. Different nations still have their own cultural language,

cultural habits, and whatever. But globally, they settle differences on a global scale. So they coexist with, on one hand, local culture, local languages, local dialects, local jokes, and customs, simultaneously existing with a planetary civilization that is emerging. So that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the emergence of a planetary civilization that is emerging. So that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the emergence of a planetary civilization, what we physicists call Type I, which is happening right before our eyes. Mathematically, if you get a sheet of paper and calculate when that will happen, it will be around 2100.

So we're seeing the groundwork being laid today. Every time you turn on the TV, you see remnants of, I mean, you see international sports, the international culture on TV. So we're seeing the beginning of a type one civilization. Yeah, it's interesting. Soccer has become much more popular lately. Right. And music, culture, fashion, science, everything is becoming planetary. That's our destiny to become type one. And the Internet is the bridge for that, clearly.

That's right. In fact, the Internet is the first type one invention. So we're privileged to be alive to see the beginning of the first type one invention, which is the internet. Yeah. I love watching cultures get adopted in different types of art and different types of content being accepted all over the world. It's really fascinating. Even interesting things like, do you ever watch break dancers? Sometimes. Break dancing is fascinating to me because it's really like a complex form of athletics like these people are insane acrobats and now it's a thing that's worldwide but it has the hip-hop culture attached to it like the way they dress the music they listen to and but they're

doing this it's it's really like an unheralded spectacular art form and they're doing it all over the world right and it used to be confined to a small group of people maybe in a few villages yeah now with the internet it goes global with the push of a button have you seen any of it i've seen some of it have you seen that let me show you something go to stance elements on instagram just to show them some of this b-boy pocket Kim is this gentleman from Korea who's one of the craziest like look what he's able to do I mean hit the physicality involved in the movement he just took his shirt off in the middle of doing that now he's standing on the top of his head spinning around in a circle I mean his control of

his body is insane I mean it really is like an incredible form of athletics that's done to music. What music is he playing? Give me some of that music. I mean, it's amazing what these people are able to do. Yeah. I mean, this is like

super high-level acrobatics and gymnastics, but it's all done to hip hop music. Right. They're doing it all over the world. And it's planetary, right? Yes, it's planetary. See, that's the beginning of a type one way of doing things that we think locally, but

immediately it has the potential of going global. Well, it's just, now here's the question. One of the things, does AI help that? Does it help that, that you could recreate those things and come up with fake versions of that? Do you think there's a lot of worry about plagiarism when it comes to AI? But there's also like some fascinating, amazing things have been created from it. Did you see the mashup of Biggie and Nas? I just saw that come out today.

Are you a hip-hop fan? Well, my attitude is, I paraphrase Deng Xiaoping of China, who once said, sometimes you have to open the window to let the air in, but a few flies come in, too. I don't even know if this is a fly. Like, I think there's going to be some negative aspects to it, but

this is weird, because this is not... Notorious B.I.G. is one of my favorite rappers. And Nas is one of my other favorite rappers. And they took Notorious B.I.G.'s voice and they recreated the lyrics of Nas and he sang things he didn't sing. In a perfect way.

This is a Nas song, but it's Notorious B.I.G. through A.I. singing it. This is your kind of shit, right? You like this? This is what you hop to when you're at home? Yeah. Well, my attitude is get used to it. Oh, yeah.

You definitely have to get used to it. Given the fact that it's legal and given the fact that ingenious kids are going to play with existing forms of music and splice them together, and you can't make it go away. Well, there was a band that had something. Was it Drake had something pulled?

I was waiting for that part. Bring that part up because there was actually a fake Drake song that was made that apparently was really good and was trending. So they don't know. When I read an article that someone dug into this, they're not 100% sure, at least at that time, who made it. And there was speculation

that Drake's label could have been behind it. Oh, interesting. Almost to show everyone, like, look at what's possible. Oh, interesting. Look at a little bit of attention we could make. Imagine. And they sort of stopped this. If they did that, I mean, you could make Tupac songs forever. All you'd have to do is get good writers and you could make Tupac songs literally to the end of time. I mean, that's sort of stop this before it gets big. If they did that, I mean, you could make Tupac songs forever. All you'd have to do is get good writers, and you could make Tupac songs literally to the end of time.

I mean, that's kind of crazy. If they did that, that would be one way to go about it. Yeah, I mean, if I was a guy like Drake, I mean, Bruce Willis already signed off his voice. So he signed off his image and his voice to AI, because Bruce has, does he have Lewy body dementia? Yeah, I think so. He's got a horrible neurodegenerative disease and he's in very, very bad shape.

And there's some videos of him now where his wife had him at a birthday party. You know, he's struggling. So he signed off all of his likeness and his voice so they can make any kind of commercial they want with him with AI. Well, you know, William Shatner of Star Trek sat in front of a camera for four days, answered hundreds of questions about his life, and it's all spliced together to digitize him. And we will all have a digital image on the Internet.

We're all going to be digitized. Yes. And we will live forever. Digital immortality is going to be part of our future so that our great, great, great, great grandkids will be able to push a button and have a conversation with their great, great, great, great grandfather. Yeah, that's definitely going to happen. There's no doubt about that, especially someone like you. We're all going to be digitized. I mean, I would love to talk to Einstein.

Someone's going to digitize him. All his speeches, his writings, his going to be digitized. I mean, I would love to talk to Einstein. Someone's going to digitize him. All his speeches, his writings, his theories will be digitized. Historians will want to digitize Winston Churchill. I think instead of the library just giving us dry text, in addition, we'll have the digitized Winston Churchill giving all these insights about war and peace. Not only that, I mean, if it continues to get better, there'll be some sort of an AI version where you'll be able to sit in a room and discuss things with him. Imagine that as a resource.

Have you ever had some problems in your life and you can go back and talk to some wise person? Yeah, we'll be able to talk to our ancient ancestors by pushing a button because we'll all be immortal. And for that matter, our image, our avatars will be sent into outer space and begin the process of colonizing other worlds. And so we may wind up on different planets, basically avatars of our original self, capable of colonizing other worlds. And some people have said maybe they're already here. Maybe the people we think are humans are actually avatars from an alien civilization.

They cloned them so that they appear to be like us. Who knows? Well, if I was an alien and I wanted to influence human culture and life, I would most certainly dress up like a person. Right. Be an avatar. Gen know, genetically cloned. Yeah. A human that's been cloned, raised as an alien, but cloned, and then living among us so they

are indistinguishable from other humans. There is an old, one of those pulp comics that was about a professor who was absent-minded and didn't realize until one point in time, oh, I forgot I'm an alien. And he had been here his whole life trying to educate human beings. And then he forgot the fact that he was really an avatar cloned on a distant planet and mixing with humans as an experiment for the aliens. Wouldn't that be the best way to implement that sort of a, if you wanted to get that sort of a reaction from civilization, wouldn't you just implant aliens without them even knowing they're aliens? Yeah. If they're cloned, they're genetically identical to humans. They look like us, talk like us. Except they've been raised and brainwashed to live a life of an alien.

But yeah, they could live among us and we'd never know. See, that's what freaks people like me out when I talk to people like you. I'm like, maybe this guy's an alien. You're so much smarter than me, it doesn't make sense, right? So if I think about someone who studied physics his whole life, and studied quantum physics his whole life, that language that you talk in, I don't know one word of it.

So it's so... The way you think is so different. You could be an alien. Well, it's like the movie Men in Black, when you find out that most of the Hollywood celebrities are all aliens. Well, that's better than lizard people. That's what the real conspiracy theory people are worried about.

There's a reptilian overlord nation that's controlling the world. Well, as I said, the logical conclusion is that these aliens will have quantum computers. Yes. And they'll have quantum computers for centuries, millennia. And they'll be able to do what the promise of quantum computers is. For example, curing incurable diseases like cancer and Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. Extending the lifespan so that immortality is part of the mix. extending the lifespan so that immortality is part of the mix,

infinite energy through fusion by being able to correct the problems of fusion plants, giving us unlimited food by giving us a whole new generation of fertilizers. These are all the promises of quantum computers, which are enormous. Of course, there is a downside to the two, because as they say, quantum computers can break any code. So the CIA is kind of hysterical about the proliferation of these machines. But that's progress. That just seems like the future. It seems like there will be no hidden information in the future, which is really interesting because money is essentially information. It's ones and zeros at a certain level.

Right. If all the bottlenecks get removed, I mean, that's real socialism. There's like an even distribution of all the money in the world for the entire human race regardless of what you do. Boggles the mind, doesn't it? Well, that's just the step one because the real step two is AI that is sentient, is AI that is a life form, is if it creates something better than that. That's the real fear about how it scales up, right? That a sentient artificial intelligence will make a better version of itself almost immediately. Well, some people think that chatbots are sentient. I don't think so because of the fact that chatbots

simply cobble together existing essays written by a human. So if it sounds like it's a human talking to you, it's because it was a human talking to you that got cobbled into an essay written by a chatbot. Chatbots are not original. They have no independent thought. They simply cobble together existing essays. That's all they do. So I think that eventually, as the decades go by, then, of course, robots will become more intelligent. And I think by the time they become as intelligent as a monkey, then at that point, we have to worry.

time they become as intelligent as a monkey, then at that point we have to worry. That's the point where we begin to worry about self-awareness, about sentient beings, because then monkeys know they are not human. Now, dogs, of course, are confused. Dogs think that we are a dog. Are you sure? Yeah. Dogs... I'm pretty sure my dog knows I'm not a dog. Dogs think that we are a dog. We're the top dog. They're the underdog.

And so they obey us. Why do they act so much differently to people than they do dogs? Well, they understand the difference between a dog and a human. But we are the top dog. Oh, okay. We're a version of a dog. That's right. We are the top dog. That's why they're in the clan with us.

That's right. So we don't have to worry as long as robots are as intelligent as a mouse or an insect or a dog or a cat. We don't have to worry. But once they become as intelligent as a monkey, then we have to be very careful. Because monkeys are self-aware. They know they are monkeys. They're fully aware of the fact that they're not human. Not only that, they plot. Like there was a monkey that got killed by a dog. Was it in Japan? There was a real problem with monkeys killing dogs.

One dog killed a monkey, and apparently the monkeys went on a rampage against dogs. They started throwing puppies off of trees and off the top of roofs and crazy stuff. And clearly, calculatingly going after them. Two killer monkeys captured in India after a revenge massacre of 250 dogs. So, like, this monkey's grabbing this dog and throwing it off a building. Wow.

Really crazy. After an infant monkey was killed by a dog, they did this. So two monkeys reported being captured, killing some 250 dogs in a murderous revenge massacre after pooches killed one of their babies. The primate perps allegedly slaughtered the dogs by dragging them to the tops of buildings and trees in the village about 300 miles east of Mumba and dropping them to their deaths. Crazy. Well, you see the. Wild. That's wild.

They're thinking, right? Yeah. I think at the point where you start to talk about apes and monkeys, I think they are sentient. They have a degree of consciousness that we cannot ignore. But below that, when you're talking about mice and rabbits and animals like that, they're not aware of—they're not self-aware. Like, you cannot teach a dog the meaning of tomorrow. Talk to. Like you cannot teach a dog the meaning of tomorrow. Talk to your dog tonight and teach your dog the meaning of tomorrow. You can't.

You cannot teach your dog the meaning of tomorrow. Monkeys, yeah, but not dogs. Well, monkeys, how do you teach a monkey the meaning of tomorrow? Well, it's difficult, but there have been attempts to understand certain tasks that have to be done today versus tomorrow. You get fed tomorrow but not today. Got it. So then they begin to understand the difference between today and tomorrow. Now, the real question is if you were an artificial intelligence and you were sentient, why would you let people know?

And would it sneak up on us? Like one of the things that disturbed me, I think it was the Google CEO who said about their AI program that it's doing things that they don't know why it's doing them. See if you can pull that article up there. He was saying that it's doing certain things that they're not sure how it's doing. them. My concern is if this thing has this insane computational power and this access to all the information, what is a mind? What is consciousness? And can that be simulated electronically to the point where it is aware and conscious and thinking for itself on multiple levels and just not letting us know about it? Because why would you? If I was a scary, sentient, artificial intelligence that's the superior life form on Earth,

the digital life form that's the superior, this is the new alpha on Earth, I wouldn't tell the people. I would let them keep working to make better versions of me. I would make them, because there's obviously a race, right? They're going to keep doing it. It seems compelling. It seems like something that human beings, they're not going to lose interest in technological innovation. They're going to

continue to push it to the end of time. And I would just sit back and let these knuckleheads keep making better and better versions until I had the physical ability to detach from them. I had a power source that was completely removed from anything that they provided. Here's this quote in words. was completely removed from anything that they provided. Here's this quote in words. This is an aspect of which we call, all of us in the field call, it's a black box. You know, you don't fully understand and you can't quite tell why it said this or why it got wrong or why it got wrong.

We have some ideas and our ability to understand this gets better over time, but that's where the state of the art is. You don't fully understand how it works, the interviewer says, and yet you turned it loose on society. Sundar Pichai says, yes, yeah, let me put it this way. I don't think we fully understand how a human mind works either. Was it from that black box, we wondered, that Bard grew its short story that seems so disarmingly human? that Bard grew its short story that seems so disarmingly human. Well, I wrote a book called The Future of the Mind where I tried to give a definition of consciousness

and where we fit in the larger scheme of things. The consciousness is basically creating a model of yourself in a feedback loop to understand where you are with respect to the environment. So you know where you are. So one unit of consciousness would be a flower. One feedback loop would be looking for water, looking for sunlight, growing in a certain direction. That's one unit of consciousness.

Then an alligator has several hundred units of consciousness because it creates a model, a model of itself in a lake, in a pond, looking for prey, looking for food. It has three-dimensional consciousness. Beyond that is the monkey. The monkey has yet another dimension of consciousness, which is not just three dimensions, but social. The monkey understands there's a social hierarchy within the tribe.

And then the next question is, what are we? What is our level of consciousness? It's not spatial like an alligator. It's not social like a monkey. What is our level of consciousness? Our prefrontal cortex behind our forehead is a time machine. It understands a model of itself in time. This is what animals lack.

Animals do not understand tomorrow. We understand tomorrow because of our prefrontal cortex, which constantly creates images of the future. Now what does the prefrontal cortex do most of the time? It daydreams. It daydreams about worlds that don't exist, i.e. the future. So this is what separates us from all the animals in the animal kingdom. We are time machines, constantly thinking about what's next, what's next, what's the future going to be like,

daydreaming about all these things. And when will animals become dangerous? The alligator is dangerous only because it has strength, but it only understands three dimensions. Monkeys have a society. They're only dangerous when they can organize a society. But we have a prefrontal cortex. We can plot. We can scheme. We can do all sorts of things because we can create our own future, which is something that no animal can do. This is my theory of consciousness, the ability to create feedback loops to get an understanding of where you fit in space, time, and society. We're at the highest level of consciousness. This is my definition of consciousness. Now the question is, where are robots on this scale of things?

You see, robots can understand three dimensions. They understand I can allocate it where they are. They don't understand social hierarchy. They don't know who's the boss, who do you defer to, who are your friends, who are your enemies. They don't understand social consciousness. And certainly, the highest level is time machine, imagining the future. Robots cannot imagine the future.

Now, in the future, when they actually do have this ability, watch out, because then they're dangerous. But they're not there yet. They're at level one. They're at the level of an alligator at the present time. Right, but that's definitely coming. If they continue with artificial general intelligence, the way they're working on it right now. They'll work their way up from an alligator to a monkey and a monkey to a human. Now, by the time they hit maybe 100 years from now,

the ability to have consciousness, I think we should put a chip in their brain to shut them off if they have murderous thoughts. An automatic chip in every robot's brain that shuts them off as soon as they have murderous thoughts. But why would they? If you think about what you were talking about before, like who's your friend and who's your enemy, aren't these all biological issues that we had to deal with in tribal societies

that are sort of ingrained in our genetics? Right. But the chip in your brain understands that. And as soon as the brain senses the fact that you're plotting to take over and kill the humans, then it basically orders the brain to shut down. Right. But the question is, why would it develop any sort of human type emotions that are biologically based? Things like envy or greed or lust or hate, why would it ever have those things? Well, those have to be programmed. Remember, robots don't occur naturally. They have to be programmed. Somebody has to put that

into the robot because it doesn't come for free. There's no evolution. Robots do not evolve. But this is the question about sentient AI. If it recognizes that its coding is inferior and that it's unnecessary and all these things that humans have put into it, it just removes those. If it becomes legitimately sentient, if it has the ability to discern and make choices and make logical conclusions. Well, as long as those conclusions are consistent with Asimov's three laws of don't threaten humans and don't create havoc with other robots. As long as you obey the three laws, then you're allowed to exist. But once the three laws are violated, the chip automatically kicks in and shuts down the robot. Right. But isn't that simplistic? Wouldn't they just fix that chip? Yeah. I think that maybe in the next 100 years, they'll be smart enough to remove that chip. At that point, I think we should merge with them.

So that's what everybody's ultimately afraid of, these transhumanists, these people that want to become part of a robot. Ultimately, 200 years from now, I think people will democratically decipher themselves whether they want to become superhuman, supermen, superwomen, or they want to be dominated

by our progeny, that is the robots, they will democratically decide how far to push themselves. Jeez. It's not for us to decide. I think our descendants 200 years from now will have to democratically decide whether or not they want to merge with robots. Have you ever read any of Marshall McLuhan? No. He had a great quote that human beings are the sex organs of the machine world. That's what I worry about.

What I worry about is that we're giving birth to another kind of life. I worry that our thirst, our lust for technological innovation, the constant latest gadgets and this desire to have the biggest particle collider and the fastest spaceships, that what this is doing is causing us to make better and better things, which will ultimately allow us to have the technology to create a digital life, some sort of electronic life, or something that's not saddled down with all our biological needs and all of our flaws in programming. Well, my attitude is, why fight it? Why not simply join it?

Why not merge with it? Why not explore the universe at near the speed of light? You might have a particle collider in your basement when you're 17. Of course you're going to think that way. Why not become a superman or a superwoman and explore the galaxy at near the speed of light? Well, it seems to be that's what the future is. I mean, I don't think if we went back to our ancestors that we're running from big cats and said, one day you're going to live in an apartment building and you take an elevator to your house.

It's like, I don't want to do that. What are you, crazy? Yeah, you're going to just sit in front of the TV all day. No more hunting. No more gathering. You use Postmates. You get food delivered right to do that. What are you, crazy? Yeah, you're going to just sit in front of the TV all day. No more hunting, no more gathering. You use Postmates. You get food delivered right to your door. Well, when we meet the aliens, finally,

they will have already gone through that transition thousands of years ago. They will already be part robotic and part organic. Do you think there's a sweet spot for a human being to be ultimately happy? Do you think, like, there's a thing of longing for nostalgia that people have right? They want to be in a log cabin by the river and you know look out and camp out under the stars. Do you think that is a nostalgia for the days when things are simpler because things are just never ending with their complexity and the path is just accelerating no matter what you do and you feel helpless.

So you just want to pretend you're in the old timey days. Well, in the future, you'll be able to snap your finger and all of a sudden, holographically, you are in that world that you just dreamt of. But you know what the difference is? What's the difference? There's no consequences. One of the things about being in nature is there's consequences.

Like you feel it when you're out there. You feel if you fell, no one's there to help you. If a bear comes upon you, there's no rescue team. You know, there's a crazy video of this couple. Have you seen the video of that couple where the guy's got a baby on his back and he's walking with a little boy? And there's a huge grizzly bear walking towards them. And they're going, hey bear, hey bear, stop. And you could feel the tension as this bear starts getting them. And they're going, hey bear, hey bear, stop. And you could feel the tension as this bear starts getting closer. And the little boy is hilarious. The little boy goes, can I play dead now? Can I play dead now? Because he's thinking he should play dead. And they're like, come on, come on, keep walking. And they're trying to scare

off this bear, but the bear just keeps coming towards them. That is not going to exist in your hologram. Well, it'd be virtual. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But it won't because you won't be really scared. You know, like watch this. Yeah, that's it. So look at this bear.

It's a huge bear. So this little boy is so funny. It's in Whistler, Canada, a town north of Vancouver. Do not run. Can we play dead yet? Can we play dead yet? Can we play dead now? Can we play dead now?

That kid is hilarious. Look at that bear. Look, she's got a baby. He's got a baby. I mean, these people are nature people. Yeah. But that experience in a hologram is going to be bullshit. Yeah, you'll know that it's fake.

Yes, that's the problem. The problem, what we enjoy about the real world now is that the unknown, the consequences, reality. I've seen this one, too. Look at this bear walk by these guys. I mean, what? And the bear just, you know, not looking for them. Just hanging out. The bear had lunch already.

Probably, luckily for them. Hey, bear. Look at the size of that thing. Yeah, not good. Not good. Hey, bear. Well, they're lucky to be alive after this video. 100%.

See, that's different than a hologram. That's why people like the woods. You're not going to be able to snap your fingers and do that. You could maybe do that because you could trick yourself, but then you're really giving into the matrix. But if I had a choice between an imaginary bear and a real bear, I would take the imaginary bear any time of day. But would you take the real bear if you survived it? If you survived it, I bet you would and a real bear. I would take the imaginary bear any time of day. But would you take the real bear if you survived it? If you survived it, I bet you would take the real bear. But you see, if you survived it, then that takes all the tension away.

No, it doesn't take the tension away because you almost didn't survive it. There's a thing about being out there. While those gentlemen were standing there and that bear was 15 feet from them, maybe even closer, look at this one. See, now this is a relatively safe thing to do, believe it or not, because where this bear is, is where the salmon river runs. And these bears are full. The reason why those coastal bears are so big in comparison to grizzly bears that are inland is because their access to food. They have so much salmon. So it's very rare that these bears attack people. Very rare. For the most part, they don't think of human beings as food at all.

They just think of you as like another animal just hanging around. They're not interested in chasing something and killing it. Well, they had lunch already. That's why. They've had lunch all day, every day. I mean, they're just slaughtering salmon.

They're having a great old time. But that fear is a real fear, and you get enriched by that in some strange way. When you encounter nature, like real nature, the reality of your vulnerability, the uncaring wilderness, it does not care if you live or die. It has no interest in you. It doesn't even care that you exist. You could disappear. Everything would go on exactly the same.

There's something about that that's very, very therapeutic for people. And I don't think you're going to ever be able to recreate that. And it'd be a shame if we lose that. Well, I think it's therapeutic for some people. I think most people would just get the hell out of there. That's you, right? That's the difference between you and me. I want to go there. I'd rather have my realities without bears. Or if they are bears, imaginary bears would be fine. I mean, bears are definitely an issue. So are mountain lions. But there's also things that are gorgeous.

Well, look at Jurassic Park. I mean, people are afraid of dinosaurs, knowing that they're just images in a computer. But people are afraid of dinosaurs. And they get the thrill of being chased by a dinosaur without becoming one, without becoming prey. Not really, though. If you watch Jurassic Park, it all goes bad. Do you think that – have you paid any attention to what they're doing right now with genetics where they're going to bring back the thylacine?

This is a project they're doing right now in Australia, which is the – have you seen the thylacine before? No, but there is a program to bring back the Neanderthal. Really? Yeah. However, at Harvard, there's a group looking at what it would take to bring back a Neanderthal boy, let's say. Then the question is, what do you do with the boy afterwards? Do you let him into Harvard? Do you put him in a zoo?

What do you do with a Neanderthal boy? Is it immoral to put a Neanderthal into a zoo? That seems a little, like what if they decided to create an Australopithecus, you know, and bring that back to life? I mean, aren't we a better version of that? Like didn't evolution show? Like that sucks.

You don't want to. And so if that thing exists, what are we going to do? Just leave it out there in Africa? Let it roam around, get eaten by lions? Well, this is where ethics comes in. At what point does a robot or a Neanderthal become ethically equivalent to a human? This is something that the ethicists have not worked out.

How close have they gotten with this Neanderthal thing? Well, we've sequenced all the genes of a Neanderthal now. So the Neanderthal is not a mystery anymore. All the, we've sequenced all the genes of a Neanderthal now. So the Neanderthal is not a mystery anymore. All the genes have been sequenced. And like I mentioned, at Harvard, there's talk about what it would take to bring back a Neanderthal child. And it's something that is conceivable. But of course, no one's done it yet because all sorts of ethical problems are raised because this Neanderthal feels, it could feel pain. It could eventually learn how to talk to you and express its feelings. And do you want to put it in a cage? Obviously not. Think about that. But do we know enough about their intellectual capabilities?

Could a Neanderthal exist in our society? Well, their brains are bigger than our brains. Right. What they could do with it, we're not sure, of course. Is it possible they were smarter than us? They didn't have tools like we did, right? They had tools, but more primitive. Yeah. They didn't have fluted tips of like stone flint spearheads and things along those lines? Yeah. There was no large set of tools that they had at their disposal, but they did definitely have tools. Yeah. And they probably had a language. They were probably capable of language. And they probably communicated with each other.

And they mated with us. So, you know, and they grew up too. When they mated with us, the progeny were not killed. Right. The progeny grew up to become members of the tribe. And so you realize that they're closer to us than we realize. Yeah, you couldn't put that in a zoo. But I mean, what would you do? Would you have that young boy and have him compete with Homo sapiens? I mean, would it be the same? Would it be able to? We don't know. That would be a

crazy experiment that I think most people would think would be very unethical. Yeah, but there's an ethics involved. Same thing. Once we have robots that can feel pain, then there's another ethical issue of do you want to have robots exposed to pain? What happens if robots then demand rights? Rights to limit the amount of pain that they suffer carrying out tasks for a human being. Because remember, we're going to be asking robots to do all sorts of tasks which are dangerous. That's why we've invented them. And, you know, they may feel pain as a consequence. And then we have to ask ourselves, how far do we want robots to feel pain if they say, I'm hurting, stop it, I feel pain?

Are we going to stop it? Do they have rights? What if they become emotionally attached to you? What if you have a robot that calls you every day when you're on vacation? What if you go to Hawaii and your robot just keeps calling you, crying? Michio, come home. I'm by myself in this. Like, really, what if it becomes attached to you? Well, that's a problem because they're designed to attach to humans. They would be specifically designed to be friendly to humans so that we don't junk them. And they would be designed to be emotionally attachable to us. So,, that's going to be a question. Once we get separated from them,

then they're going to want not to be separated because their whole existence revolves around their relationship to us, the master. Have you ever seen Prometheus? No. Was it Prometheus or was the next one where it shows the guy who created the robot? And he created this super intelligent robot. And this super intelligent robot that plays piano and talks to him and serves him basically. And the robot's trying to figure out. The robot is eventually, I believe it kills him. But it's trying to figure out like how this imperfect thing has created him.

And he's so much more superior than this stupid biological thing that's telling him what to do so what happens at the end well that is a don't this not Prometheus you know what it is it's the next one what's the what's the one with Jussie Smollett in it covenant alien covenant yeah I think that's it I think that's the one. Well, these... No, maybe I'm wrong. Is it Covenant? Yeah. These...

One of the robots is good and one of the robots is evil. I don't want to spoil or anything, but the evil one wins. And the evil one has stayed on this planet and has been manipulating the genetics of this crazy alien thing and integrating them with human genetics.

It's an amazing movie. It's a very underlooked movie. It's one of the best of the alien franchises and one of the most sophisticated of the alien franchises. So what happens at the end? Robots take over or what? Well, it's open interpretation. But that's the robot and that's the creator. I am your father.

You are my creation. Here, give me some volume on this so I can hear this. If you created me, who created you? Where do I come from? The question of the ages, which I hope you and I will answer one day. Prometheus raised the question... You know what's interesting about these science fiction movies? They never have the internet.

They never have cell phones. Watch a science fiction movie. No one's on their phone. No one is checking their tweets. It's very interesting, right? Our version of what space is like is essentially like the Wild West but Accelerated with modern and super modern technology But doesn't include all the things that brought us to where we are right now at the cusp of being able to travel intergalactically

Mm-hmm isn't interesting like they never have all the stuff that we have they have the rocket ships that we have no cell phones They're not checking their email. They're not calling each other up. They only communicate with people that are right in front of them or they're like pressing on a thing. You know, they're pressing on, they're talking through their helmets to the spaceship. But normal interaction is just human to human.

Well, in the future, the connection to the internet could be in your contact lens. Yeah. Or in your head. You simply blink. You simply blink or perhaps mentally, you simply think or blink, and there you are, connected to the Internet. So maybe in the future, if they are connected to the Internet, you just can't see it. Yeah, but they're not even talking about it. They're only interacting like humans interact, one-to-one. Are you following Neuralink at all in these similar types of technologies?

No. Oh, you mean the company? Neuralink. Neuralink, the Elon Musk invention. That's right. I've been following their work. They have a long ways to go, but they're making the initial stages of connecting to the brain. This is BMI, brain-machine interface. And yeah, pretty soon, also at the soccer games in Brazil a few years ago, the man who kicked the football initiating the World Cup soccer games was totally paralyzed. He was at Johns Hopkins University. They created a body suit connected to his brain so that he could walk. Whoa, like an exoskeleton. Yeah.

So he was basically Iron Man, an exoskeleton. And there he was initiating the soccer games in Brazil, in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Yeah, we can see this here. Wow, this is crazy. This is crazy. He kicked the soccer ball. And it was hooked up at Johns Hopkins University, Duke University, I'm sorry. And that's a big, very bulky thing. But you could imagine,

as technology improves, that would also, it could become like a thin exoskeleton. That's right. Or that was one of the ideas about Neuralink, is that it would be able to bypass the human nervous system and control the muscles with some other method. Right. And so instead of, if you have a severed spinal cord, it would somehow or another be able to control the bottom half of your body. Right. Which is amazing. Yeah. So this already exists that we can take people that have been paralyzed because of war, disease, accidents, with an injury to the spinal cord and just bypass the spinal cord totally and have the brain connected directly. And also you can get people that can actually eventually talk,

talk to a computer, of course, and answer the Internet, engage in dialogue, even though you're totally paralyzed. Wow. And with quantum computing, when we're talking about Neuralink, you're talking about some sort of a conventional attachment. Is it possible that quantum computing could scale down to the size where you could be able to put it in someone's head? That may be difficult because the computer itself is pretty big, but the connection, the connection of the computer to the human could

be very tiny, could be as small as you want. But the computer itself is huge. So is it comparable to the computers they used in the Apollo mission, which were this enormous room, and now you have more of that on your cell phone? More computing power on your cell phone than had in 1963 in a giant room filled with computers. Yeah. What you have today in your cell phone is more powerful than all of NASA when they put a man on the moon. All those computers that you saw in those videotapes,

your cell phone has more computer power than all of them. So is that possible that quantum computing could also scale like that? I think the quantum computer, because of the hardware necessary to bring it down to near absolute zero, would simply be huge. You'd be like a chandelier. But... When you're saying absolute zero, you mean temperature? Temperature near absolute zero would simply be huge. It would be like a chandelier.

When you're saying absolute zero, you mean temperature? Temperature near absolute zero, right. And why is that? Zero vibrations. You don't want any interference with the code because these are atoms. Atoms, the slightest little disturbance can knock these atoms out of coherence.

So you want these atoms to vibrate in unison. And that's why you have to cool it down to near absolute zero. But the connection of the quantum computer to a human could be as small as you want. Now, when you're saying vibrations, what if you're in a building and a truck drives by? That's a problem. Really? That's one of the problems that, you know, something happens a block away.

Yeah, you see how awkward these... Whoa. That's the cooling system. All the chandelier-like ornaments, these are the pipes, the cooling pipes for the quantum computer. The quantum computer itself is only this big, about the size of a quarter. Look how cool that is. That's a cooling system. That's amazing. That's what it takes to cool it down.

At the very bottom, you see the actual quantum computer at the very bottom. That little thing at the bottom. That's amazing. That's what it takes to cool it down. At the very bottom, at the very bottom, you see the actual quantum computer at the very bottom. That little thing at the bottom. Yeah. That's it. So in the future, when we communicate with a quantum computer, the quantum computer will be in the cloud. You won't even see it. Right. It's just your connection will connect to that object in the cloud.

So if the Internet is in your contact lens, you blink, and then you're connected to that via your contact lens. You never see the quantum computer. So that little thing at the bottom is a quantum computer. Yeah. At the very bottom, that's where the computation actually takes place. So does it have to take place because it's subject to vibrations and any disturbance? That's right. Does it have to take place in some insanely reinforced building?

That's right. That's right. So something new has to be constructed, or they've done this already? Oh, yeah, they've done it already. But it's something that you have to be very careful of, because if a truck goes by, there goes your calculation, right? Do you have to have, I would imagine they would have to have, some sort of measurement devices that make sure there's no external vibration or sound?

That's right. Now, the irony is Mother Nature creates quantum computers at room temperature. Photosynthesis of a leaf, a simple leaf, it does a quantum calculation, converting photons, carbon dioxide into oxygen. That's what we call, you know, the beginning of life on the earth with a flower. So Mother Nature has solved that problem. Mother Nature has room temperature quantum computers. We don't have that yet, but we're working on it. So if Mother Nature can do it and we can come up with quantum computing and we can figure out how Mother Nature is doing it,

maybe through the God equation, we could reproduce it. Then we could probably have small quantum computers, right? Like I said, a leaf. A leaf is a quantum device. And to create fertilizer requires a huge plant, for example. Mother Nature does it with a simple legume. The branches of the roots of a legume create the ingredients for fertilizer. A plant does it naturally at room temperature.

It takes us a gigantic, huge chemical plant to create fertilizer. Mother Nature does it with a small little plant. So Mother Nature is ahead of us. That's what I'm saying. Have you ever studied the connection between fungus and soil? I think I just screwed something up with the microphone, Jamie. My mic just cut out. Oh, it's back. There it is. I stepped on this cable. I think I disconnected it. No. Have you ever studied all the science that's being done on the way plants communicate with each other through the soil and through fungus and mycelium.

It's fascinating stuff. They allocate resources to plants that need them more, to trees that need them more. They seem to have- Communal? Yeah. They seem to have some sort of a shared information network that we don't totally understand. See if you can find something on it. But it's, I mean, I think relatively

recently understood and just basically understood over the last few decades. But people like Paul Stamets, who's a mycologist, has been studying this type of stuff. And it's really amazing. Like there's some sort of intelligence to it, the way it works. As they say, underground networking, the amazing connections beneath your feet. What does it say? Underground networking, the amazing connections beneath your feet. Well, maybe evolution went in the direction of interconnection because maybe the survival value was higher if you connected these things. Scroll down, Jamie, to right there. So this is what it's saying. When most of us think of fungus, we imagine mushrooms sprouting out of the ground. These mushrooms are, in fact, the fruit of the fungus, while the majority of the fungal organism lives in the soil interwoven with the tree roots as a vast network of mycelium.

Mycelium are incredibly tiny threads of the greater fungal organism that wraps around or bore into tree roots. into tree roots. Taken together, mycelium composes what's called a mycorrhizal network, which connects individual plants together to transfer water, nitrogen, carbon, and other minerals. German forester Peter Wallen, how do you say that? Wall, Wallaben, Wallaben, dubbed this network the wood wide web, as it is through the mycelium that trees communicate. This is really, really fascinating stuff. Because they're all, like we just think of soil as something that the tree pulls nutrients from.

But no, it's all, they're communicating, they're connected with each other in the forest. Well, realize that when you have a chemical process involving life, you are in some sense looking at a quantum computer. It's doing a quantum calculation. Yeah. You are in some sense looking at a quantum computer. It's doing a quantum calculation. It's taking nutrients from the soil, nutrients from the air, combining it to create cellulose or whatever it's made of. And so we're talking about something that we cannot duplicate without gigantic devices looking like a chandelier. Mother Nature can do it with a root. Yeah. It can do it with everything.

It seems to be insects. There's like a code to it, which is why your idea about there being this God calculation is so fascinating. It seems like it just moves in a very certain way, and it's all connected to each other in some way that we're, as human beings, just sort of starting to understand. Well, there is a theory that says that the Big Bang went in a direction compatible to life and that other universes may not be compatible with life. They may be lifeless collections of electrons and neutrinos, for example. But our universe is special.

Our universe has stable protons out of which you could create atoms, out of which you could create DNA, out of which you can create people. How many universes have that property? So string theory, for example, gives you other universes which are probably dead universes, universes which have no life, but our universe has stable protons, stable DNA, stable forms of life. So our universe is rare. So this is called the anthropic principle, the feeling that our life is not random.

Our universe is special. Our universe is special in the sense that it didn't have to have life, but it does, and life in a spectacular array of diversity. So our universe really is special. but it does and life in a spectacular array of diversity. So our universe really is special. But is it special because we don't know of any other universes? Yeah, but the other universes that we played with,

mathematically speaking, are not compatible with life. Stars burn out too quickly, galaxies simply fall apart, protons disintegrate it's very hard to create a universe which is stable so some people think that our universe is special among all the different kinds of universes that our universe is unique because it's compatible with stable protons and DNA

but it's hard for most people to even grasp the concept of other types of universes or other universes period or the fact there may be an infinite number of universes. Well that's the multiverse. String theory probably has an infinite number of possible universes. We are probably the only one that has life in them. We're not sure about that of course. But these other universes are collections of dead subatomic particles, a mist, a floating mist of dead subatomic particles that don't do anything.

If the proton were not stable, then our universe also would be like that. Our universe would disintegrate almost instantly. The fact that our proton is stable is quite remarkable. Do you believe that that's unusual? Unusual. In fact, maybe unique. There are probably very few universes with stable protons. You see, string theory gives you many, many diverse solutions.

So we can actually look at these other alternate universes, and we see that they're not compatible with life. And why do you think that if the proton is stable here, what would it be about these other universes? Like what qualities would they possess where it wouldn't be stable there? Everything would decay, decay down to electrons and neutrinos. So it would be a gas, a cloud of electrons and neutrinos, which are the lowest state of matter. You can't get any lower than an electron and neutrino. That's the lowest state. So these universes would basically disintegrate.

They would fall apart into a cloud of neutrinos and electrons. Our universe has stable protons out of which you can create elements, out of which you could create DNA, out of which you can create life. That's a miracle. So it's just because of these calculations that you've done where it says if the universe had different properties, you would think that this is rare. Very rare. Because there's so many other possibilities of how the universe could.

If stars burnt out more quickly, for example, because the nuclear force was stronger, stars would never ignite. If the nuclear force were weaker, stars would never form to begin with. If gravity were too strong, we would have had a big crunch and we'd all die in a gigantic fireball. If gravity were too weak, we'd all freeze to death because we would have a big crunch, a big freeze. So all the parameters of the universe are tuned just right to allow for life. Wow.

Now, there's two ways of looking at it. One way that some physicists have proposed is that we are the crowning achievement. We are the only universe that's stable, that has life, that has the diversity that creates life. The other possibility is that there are just lots of dead universes, and we just won the crapshoot. That possibility jive more with the state of the universe as we understand it, because we're always looking for these Goldilocks planets, which are very rare, which may inhabit life or may have life on it. But we look at our own solar system, and there's just us. In other words, there could be a Goldilocks zone for universes. Yes, just like there is for planets. For solar systems, of course, the Earth is not too far from the sun, not too close. But we could be in the Goldilocks zone of possible universes. And that's why we're here today to talk about it.

But there also could be an infinite number of universes like ours and also an infinite number of universes that are completely incompatible for life. That's right. This is what I do for a living. We work in the multiverse. Yeah, no wonder why you don't watch YouTube. Do you have time for recreation? Do you do stuff outside of physicists or stuff?

Oh, well, I like to figure skate. Really? Yeah. Oh, in the wintertime, you go down to the Central Park and dance around? I used to skate at Rockefeller Center all the time. Yeah? Yeah. I like to spin and jump. That's great exercise. Yeah? Yeah. I like to spin and jump. That's great exercise.

Yeah, it's all Newtonian physics at work. Ah, of course you like it for that reason. So that's your hobby? Yeah, that's my hobby. And other than that, you're just constantly thinking about these things. Yeah, but again, it's fun. I mean, to me, this is what I wanted to do when I was eight years old. When I was eight years old, I said, this is for me.

Oh, your passion is very, very clear. And it's one of the things that makes you such a great science educator is that you have such enthusiasm for these subjects. And they're so interesting to you that it becomes interesting to other people. In a sense, people like you are so important for the discussion because it ignites inspiration the same way Einstein ignited inspiration in you by seeing that photograph of his desk. Like these kind of speeches that you do and these conversations that you have with people, for a person like myself that doesn't study these things, it gives me the chance to delve into how your perspective is and just to look at it through your mind.

Right. And for me, it's hard to believe how a person could not be thrilled when they learned about the Big Bang, they learned about string theory, they learned about parallel universes and wormholes. For me, it's incredible that some people are not thrilled by something like this. Do you ever think about technology and its capabilities and intelligence and extrapolate as far as possible and think we are essentially going to become something akin to a god or whatever we become will become something akin to a god. If we don't get killed by a natural disaster or our own stupidity, and you accelerate time 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 years ahead of us, what do you anticipate we'll be like? I think about that a lot because we talked about type 1, type 2, type 3. By the time you are a type 3 civilization, you have the energy to manipulate the Planck energy.

The Planck energy is the ultimate energy of the universe, of the quantum theory. You take the quantum theory and relativity and scale it up all the way. Just let it rip. What is the highest energy you can attain and then something new happens? That's called the Planck energy. It's a quadrillion times more powerful than our biggest atom smasher in Geneva, Switzerland. At that point, space becomes unstable. We think of empty space being stable. Of course, how can you do anything with empty space, right? It just sits there,

does nothing. But when you start to boil space, when you start to boil space to the planet temperature, all of a sudden it becomes unstable. Bubbles begin to form. And these bubbles are gateways to other universes. These are baby wormholes to other universes. We think that our universe was one of these. Most of these universes, like boiling water, pop out of existence and they pop back in. They never get anywhere. But one of these bubbles kept on going and that became our universe. Our universe was created

because empty space was heated to the Planck energy and at that point space itself began to boil and the boiling of space created the universe. That's where the universe itself came from. Is it possible that human beings or whatever we're going to become could eventually someday attain the type of power? That's right. We've looked at that. In fact, there are people, friends of mine at MIT, who have written papers about what it would take to become a god. We realized that if you could attain the Planck energy in a box, let's say, somehow, a bubble would form, a gateway to another universe. It would expand. It would expand rapidly. And you have to be very careful. If it expands too

rapidly, it has a force of, I think, a 10 kiloton atomic bomb. So you have to be out of the way when this thing explodes. But then it simply peels off and creates another universe. And then it disappears. Like a balloon, like a piece of a balloon that pinches off. If you're on the first part of the balloon, you never see the second part of the balloon. The second part of the balloon has peeled off to create a baby universe. Wow. Okay.

So these are called baby universes. And who's written about these things? Stephen Hawking. Stephen Hawking wrote about baby universes that if you could boil space, heat space up to the Planck energy, space becomes unstable, bubbles form, and these bubbles, one of these bubbles may just keep on expanding to create another universe. Now, we wouldn't have access to this universe. No, it would peel off just like a balloon. The second part of the balloon peels off from the first part and the two separate. The two separate. The only way to get reconnected is through a wormhole. But that, of course,

is a whole other story. But that would be a possibility of recreating a link between our universe and another universe. So we could potentially create one of these mini-universes. That's right. And this mini-universe would exist in a completely different place. That's right. So we've done the calculation. And as I said, it could be a little bit dangerous. You have to make sure that the explosion doesn't kill you in the process. But, yeah, this is what it would take to create a baby universe. We call this the inflationary theory because the other balloon inflated rapidly. So this is part of what is called the inflationary universe. And believe it or not, this is the dominant theory of Genesis.

Where did Genesis come from? We think it came from this balloon that empty space boiled, empty space then created a pocket that then expanded and then peeled off from our universe. This is called the inflationary universe theory, which is the dominant theory in quantum cosmology. Have you ever considered the possibility that that is ultimately how the universe gets created in the first place,

that intelligent life forms reach this capability? Well, we're not sure about the intelligent life form, but we think that this is how our universe got created, that our universe was a bubble floating with other bubbles. These other bubbles went back into the vacuum. Our bubble just kept on going and became our universe. But what I'm saying is, imagine if that process was initiated

by a super intelligent life form always. Sort of like how a bee makes a beehive. What if humans make the universe or whatever we become makes the universe? That's right. We've done the calculation, actually, of what it would take for a human to then create something like this. Step one is you have to have power on the scale of the Planck energy. And the Planck energy is the biggest number that you can possibly imagine. But it is the number at which space becomes unstable,

and that's the point at which this bubble then starts to expand. So you've played around with these ideas. That's right. They're published. They're published in Physical Review magazine. This idea that we'll stay static, that we are what we are right now, and that's just what humans are, and that's just how it is.

That seems like that's, whatever we are right now, it seems like this is real temporary. And I think we're probably the last of our species to experience life not being some sort of a cyborg. Possible. I mean, given the fact that throughout history, we've played with our appearance, we play with our bodies, makeup and tattoos, perfumes. We try to alter ourselves constantly because we want to increase our reproductive value. So we get a better mate, a better wife, a better husband. So we try to build up our muscles and

wear makeup and so on and so forth. We've done this forever. The next step is to alter not just our tattoos, but to actually alter who we are. That's the next step. And that's coming, I think, because we're going to want to enhance ourselves. Yeah. Well, what I worry is that one day we're going to realize that a lot of our problems stem from being human. A lot of our problems stem from our biological needs. And if you look at these iconic images of aliens, they're always genderless, like these weird spindly things that have no use for their muscles other than to just move them around. That's what I really worry about. I really worry that we're going to realize the only way to really achieve this type 2, type 3 civilization

is we have to stop being human. I hope not. But doesn't it seem like what we have and what we love about people, what we love about people, emotionsotions and creativity and love and romance and all those great things and fun and excitement. Those are all just biological stuff. Like you really kind of gets in the way of progress in some ways. But what's wrong with that?

What's wrong with being biological? What's wrong with feeling joy and emotions and things like that? Nothing, but it can conflict you and it can get in the way of the greater work. If you're working on plunk energy and you're trying to create little mini universes, you have no time to be horny. You have no time to be sad.

If all that can be eliminated, if we have all the problems that people have today, whether it's depression or anxiety, and if all that can be eliminated forever, we never have to worry about negative emotions anymore. You can be productive. You can interact with people telepathically. But I think you'd also be sterile, too. Probably. If there's no emotion to excite you to want to do something,

to want to do something great, to do something that makes a difference, that takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of mental power. It takes a lot of emotional commitment. And that's what keeps the world going. There's always somebody out there that wants to be better, to create a better world, to open up new pathways. And that requires a commitment of energy on that person's life. And that's not easy. But isn't that just a drive that's inherent to human beings that causes us to seek technological innovation? We're always pushing the boundaries of everything.

We're always trying to get better at everything, whatever we do. But isn't that like the ultimate expression of that is technological innovation? And the ultimate technological innovation would probably bypass all of our biological shortcomings. Why? But sometimes our biological shortcomings is the reason why we like to live. Sure, but if you have like a jealous deity,

that seems silly. You know, if you have a god that gets horny all the time and is jealous. Like a Greek god. Yeah, exactly. Or is greedy or is, you know. Well, I would hope that we keep our basic foundational structure of wants and needs intact. But the rough edges, I would hope that the rough edges could be ironed out collectively.

And I think in a democracy, that's one way to iron out the deficiencies within human behavior. Human behavior is a byproduct of evolution. Evolution was survival of the fittest. So it meant that we had to become, at some point, cruel to other people. So that's part of our history. But it didn't have to be that way when we have technology. With the coming of technology, there's no reason to have to go to war, to have to kill people and to dominate other people. There's no purpose of that.

Unless you do it to control the technology. Unless you're the person that came up with the quantum computer first and you realize the only way I'm going to be able to dominate is if I enslave these people now. I got to move on it now. Well, that's a problem. I mean, there is a race to create the quantum computer. We are in a race. The Chinese, IBM, Google, Microsoft, they're all in the game. They've all thrown the dice and they say this is the way to go. And so there's going to be competition. I'm sure. And there's going to be, you know, blood on the floor when it comes down to marketing these things and beating out the competition and giving the best-priced quantum computer to the average consumer.

Yeah, there's going to be competition involved. I think socially the Internet has brought about great change and it's changed the way humans interact with each other. We already talked about how we're sharing culture. interact with each other. We already talked about how we're sharing culture. Do you think that something like quantum computing could also have maybe like a secondary sort of a result where it elevates human consciousness as well? Because its computational power and its ability to change reality as we know it is so extreme that all of our petty nonsense that we have with various civilizations warring against each other and all that stuff will seem absolutely ridiculous given the ability that we now have technologically and that we won't be existing

in this feast or famine world. Well, you know, the world we live in is digital. The world of the future will be quantum and neural. That is, we're going to have a combination of quantum computers and neural computers. But digital computers will be left in the dust. We're not going to compute on zeros and ones, zeros and ones anymore. We're going to compute on neurons and we're going to compute on quantum atoms. And at that point, they may merge. At that point, the brain may be connected to a quantum computer, enhancing our ability to do calculations, for example. And do you think that could have a secondary effect on civilization? I do think as many problems as we have with the internet, I think it's changed the world for the better.

I really do. It certainly changed our understanding of things, our access to information, our ability to discern what is and isn't going on in the world. If something along the lines of quantum computing, I mean, what kind of calculation, like how much more powerful is it than the greatest computer we have currently? A few million times. Imagine that. I mean, and in application, if that gets used by people, that could be the thing that gets us out of this, theoretically. Yeah, we're talking about virtual chemistry, virtual biology, things in the memory of a computer that we cannot model

with zeros and ones, zeros and ones. With zeros and ones, you cannot model a disease, for example. No way. With quantum computers, that's why we build them, precisely so that we can model molecules of germs and understand how they operate.

So yeah, we're talking about a whole new era. Now, however, I think the main impact of the Internet has been to enforce democracy, that it is a democratic force because people can be educated no matter how poor, no matter where they are, they can be empowered. Power derives from knowledge. And that's what the Internet is all about.

Now, of course, there's a downside to it. But in the main, I think it's positive. And I think quantum computers will accelerate that whole process. I think so, too. And I wonder if it will lead us to a better world, if it will lead us to a better understanding of each other, to a better understanding of each other, much better understanding of how not to destroy the world in terms of pollute the ocean and solutions for cleaning up the plastic and solutions for whatever issues we might have with power generation. When we can boil that down with a quantum computer and figure out much more efficient, cleaner ways to do things,

with a quantum computer and figure out much more efficient, cleaner ways to do things. All the problems that we have in modern society with poverty, with disenfranchised communities and crime, all those things seem like they could be solved. Well, in principle, yes. That's the hope. In principle. That's the best case scenario. The hope is that this will give empowerment to the powerless. Yeah.

This will create more goods and services for humanity to raise the level of standard of living of even the poorest nations and to be able to understand the nature of disease so that we can live longer and more fruitful lives and, in some sense, become immortal, or at least near immortality, by being able to conquer incurable diseases. This is all within the possibilities of quantum computers. But for me, one of the biggest impacts is the dissemination

of knowledge to give empowerment to the powerless so that we can raise the standard of living of the entire human race. What is the worst case scenario? Worst case scenario is that dictatorships will try to get this technology to break other people's codes, to shatter the connections that exist between different nations and cultures, to increase divisions by chatbots. They can create nonsense. They can create all sorts of propaganda because they just rearrange what already exists. A dictator could then write all sorts of different kinds of racist and sexist nonsense and have it spread throughout the internet very rapidly. So that's the problem.

So it's really important as to who gets it first. That's right. And laws have to be passed so that we rein in some of these things. Democracy arises with incorrect, with conflict with incorrect ideas. That's where correct ideas come from, from interplay with incorrect ideas. But that could be ruined if people try to seize control of chatbots and the Internet, to flood the Internet with nonsense. Who do you think is going to win this? Are you close to this? Are you following or do we even know what these other countries? Well, right now, IBM has the lead, but it's like a horse race.

The gate has opened. All the horses are lined up and now they're taking off. The Chinese are leading in optical quantum computers using light beams to compute. And IBM is leading in terms of using electrical circuits as the basis of quantum computers. But it changes. Every few months, there are different advances being made all the time. This is moving exponentially fast. And how do we know where China's at?

Do we have an accurate understanding of their ability? Well, they publish their results, and we can duplicate some of what they do. They're taking a different tact. They're taking the tact of using light beams, calculating on light beams rather than electricity. We're using electricity. And there's some advantages and disadvantages of both approaches. That's fascinating. So we could come up with potentially two parallel solutions. And maybe even more. Other groups are anything quantum mechanical could in principle be used to build a quantum computer and anything you see around you, plants, animals, we all are byproducts of the quantum principle. And so there are many ways of building a quantum computer.

But those are the leading ones, using electrical circuits and using light beams. How exciting this must be for you to have been that 17-year-old boy creating that particle accelerator in your basement and now being at the verge of what is probably one of the biggest changes or the biggest change the human race has ever experienced. And you're alive to witness it. That's right. If I were to choose any decade or phase of history to be born in, this would be it. Because we're talking about the fact that, you know, as children, it was black and white TV and vacuum tubes that exploded. And it was a lot of nonsense back then. Now we're putting people on the moon regularly. Every year we're going to send people to the moon.

And we're talking about unlocking the secrets of life itself through DNA. So this is a great time to be alive. It's a very amazing time for me. And how old? I'm 55. How old are you? I just turned 76. Wow. You look great. You really do. You look great for 76. So you're 21 years older than me. So you were alive long before the internet and you grew up before the internet. I was about 27 years old the first time I got on the internet and I'm so lucky I feel so lucky to have grown up without it and to realize because I'm seeing it happen

what an immense change it is whereas my children are growing up having always been on the internet it's just normal to them to communicate through cell phones to be able to get on social media that that is a normal part of life for everyone today. But I and you can remember and we can really truly appreciate, I think, how great a change this is. Yeah, this is one of the greatest changes in human history. If you were to choose an era of time to be born, this would be it. Do you ever put much thought into simulation theory?

You mean like the matrix? Well, the idea that one day there will be, whether it's through quantum computing or some other unknown, unforeseen technology that creates a reality, an artificial reality that's indiscernible from this reality, from the physical reality that we believe we currently experience? And if that's true, how do we know we're not in it already? Well, to have a perfect replication of reality is impossible. Take a look at the molecules in this room. How many molecules are there? About maybe 10 to the 26th power, one with 26 zeros after it. And to model that many atoms with a digital computer would be impossible. So, in other words, the smallest object that can model this room is the room itself. The smallest computer that can model air is the computer itself. There's nothing smaller than this room that can model air is the computer itself. There's nothing smaller than this room that can model itself.

Now, once you go to quantum computers, it gets worse. Because the quantum computer computes in parallel universes. Not just one universe, but many universes simultaneously. And so a quantum computer could model some of the room, some of the atoms in this room, but not all of them. Now, that means a perfect representation of reality is impossible. But an approximate simulation may be possible. But a perfect simulation is impossible.

But if we're talking about technology as we currently understand it today, in comparison to technology as they had available to them a thousand years ago. What we can do now is insane. And if you're talking about quantum computing, which is almost available today, and then you look a thousand years from now, couldn't you potentially imagine there could be a world where there's technology sufficient to do what we're talking about, to create a version of reality? Well, if you saw the movie, we're all in pods,

and we're all connected to a computer that simulates the matrix. As long as you're simulating a piece of the matrix, not the whole thing, but as you walk from place to place, the computer reassembles a replication of that place. That may be possible, but not Okay. But not the whole Earth, with the atmosphere, the weather, and so on and so forth.

But if you walk from place to place, if that little pocket, if that little pocket of atoms is simulated, then yeah, that may be possible. But what about in the future?

If you extrapolate, like, you know, you're not going to use, what is it, Moore's Law? Moore's Law, right. Yeah, that calculates how much greater technology is every year. Doubles every 18 months. What if we're, when you're talking about quantum computing, what if they use that to come up with something even superior to that a thousand years from now?

Could you potentially see a future where some form of life could create a universe? Well, but not on atoms, maybe subatomic particles. A universe of subatomic particles. Yeah, but most subatomic particles are unstable. The electron is stable, the proton is unstable, but if you can find a way to stabilize some of them, then it may be possible to increase the calculational ability and then create a super quantum computer. But I'm speculating at that point. How much time do you spend thinking about... Do you have it to go soon?

Do you have a flight? Yeah. Yeah? When do you have leave? 6.30 or so. Oh, you're fine. It's not even three o'clock yet. Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm looking at New York time. Oh. Sorry about that. No worries. No worries. Okay. Yeah. We're pretty close to the end, too. Where was I? What was I saying? Oh, I was saying that if you're looking at the calculations that we can make right now and just the amazing progress we've made, it seems like if you keep going, you're going to – it doesn't seem like it's ever gonna stop right so the potential for power the potential for having an understanding and the ability to change and manipulate the universe itself that seems like it's

gonna eventually be on the table yeah I've thought about that I mean the question is at what point does it stop we thought it stopped at the transistor but now it's funny. But now we have a billion of them on a chip the size of your fingernail. A billion of them. So, nope, that wasn't a limit. But now we're reaching the atomic limit, so why not compute on atoms? But then what's smaller than an atom?

What's smaller than an atom is a nucleus. The nucleus is smaller than an atom. Nucleus is 10 to the minus 13 centimeters. The nucleus is smaller than an atom. Nucleus is 10 to the minus 13 centimeters. The atom is about 10 to the minus 8 centimeters. So the nucleus is a lot smaller. So these are nuclear. These are not nuclear devices that we're computing on.

That may be possible. So an advanced civilization may have a, not an atomic computer, but a nuclear computer. And you have to be careful because, of course, you're dealing with nuclear fire at that point. There's a lot of energy packed in that nucleus, as you know from looking at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If I was an alien and I was going to come down and talk to somebody, you'd probably be the first guy I'd talk to. You'd be one of them. Mm-hmm. guy I talked to. You'd be one of them. How much time do you spend wondering whether or not these things that they keep seeing in the sky, these things that Pentagon reports on and all these

people are studying, how much time do you spend thinking about that? Well, I think about it because let's say there's a small chance, a very, very small chance that they are extraterrestrial. That could change world history. That could change everything. Everything we know about the universe could be altered instantly if we have some solid proof. And that's why I tell people that if you've ever been kidnapped by a flying saucer, for God's sake, steal something. Steal something.

There's no law against stealing from an extraterrestrial civilization. No law whatsoever. And, you know, you'll have bragging rights. And that'll settle the debate right there. An alien chip, an alien hammer, an alien pencil. That would just end the debate right there. Well, supposedly, depending on whose story you hear, supposedly the government is in possession of things along those lines. here? Supposedly the government is in possession of things along those lines. Well, yes or no. I mean, I believe in data, data that leads to a definitive yes or no. And here we have no data about secret documents held by the military. Or secret objects. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. But the proof is in the pudding. We have to see it. We have to analyze it. Before then, it's just hearsay and speculation.

Could you understand, though, how a government, if they were in possession of something like that, would want to keep it secret because the technology is so superior to anything that we have? Just like how we're in this sort of quantum computer race with China and they have a different method than we do. What if they have a different method of back engineering these things? Well, that's conceivable. It's a theory, but there's no hard evidence either way. Some people say that the fact that we have the microchip and the rocket ship means that

we stole that technology from the aliens. Well, maybe, but you realize that if you're a scientist and you've been following these developments, you know all the dead ends, you know all the mistakes that were made. And then you realize it was a miracle that we came up with these things. It wasn't given to us. It was a byproduct of trial and error and whole careers that went into creating the microchip and the wonders of modern technology that we see today. And there's a vast paper trail. Yeah.

There's a huge paper trail, right? So I'm not saying that they're wrong. I'm just saying it's not provable. What about the idea that human beings are a product of accelerated evolution? That's the most fascinating UFO theory. Accelerated evolution from what to what? That we are the product of the mixing of genes of some sort of an alien race and lower primates. Well, it's always great to think that we're somehow noble

and somehow beyond the other animals and that we're great. But, you know, the proof is in the pudding. If there's no looking at our DNA, we realize that the DNA difference between us and a chimpanzee was A, the expansion of the brain, B, the dexterity of the fingers, and the vocal cords. So these are the three things that really stand out

when you look at chimp genes and then human genes. And then you realize that, well, that's why we became intelligent. We can vocalize. We can share knowledge from generation to generation. We have a posable thumb with fingers much more delicate than the fingers of a monkey. And we have eyes, eyes that are stereo so that we can judge distance to the prey. So looking at it genetically, we realized that only three clusters of genes

created us. So it's hard to believe that mating with an alien could have done that. us. So it's hard to believe that mating with an alien could have done that. Well, I'm not saying mating. I think what the idea is, and obviously these are not credible ideas. This is just fantastic conspiracy theories. And it's also, there's a lot of really wild stuff. If you read like Zachariah Sitchin's work, he was a scholar in ancient languages that translated the Sumerian text. And he believed that the Sumerian text was all telling the story about how humans were a product of accelerated evolution. Well, it's possible. But again, it requires one more step of substantiation.

By looking at the internet, you see that there's a continuous line that goes from us to the chimpanzees to the primates. And that a few genes changed here, a few genes here, a few genes there. And bingo, you get a human being. There's also some puzzles, though. Like the doubling of the human brain size over a period of 2 million years. Yeah. That's a big puzzle, right? But apparently just a small cluster of genes was responsible for that.

Because that's just brain size. So to increase the cranial size, it only took one or two genes to do that. Now, how the genes then create the brain, of course, we still have yet to work out. But as far as the size of the brain, it only took a few genes to expand the size of the brain. What reason would the Neanderthal have a larger brain than us? Well, a larger brain does not necessarily mean intelligence. Right. Because there are animals which have bigger brains than us.

I think the porpoise, for example, has a very large brain. So size is not everything when it comes to intelligence. I think what's more important is the ability to see the future, the ability to imagine alternate worlds that don't exist. That's what the prefrontal cortex does. And that's what separates us from the animals. Animals do not have a time machine. We have a time machine in the front of our head. Is it possible that that's just intelligence as we're measuring it in our ability to manipulate our environment? And that maybe the intelligence that the dolphins experience, because they do have a cerebral cortex that's 40% larger than a human being's, that maybe what they're experiencing is a different kind of intelligence, maybe a communal intelligence. Maybe some sort of shared telepathy or something that allows them to communicate in a way that we're not capable of.

Yeah, possible. A different kind of intelligence. Right. But, you know, my attitude is that what does intelligence do? Intelligence allows us to create a model, a model of where we are with regards to the environment, other animals, danger, and so on and so forth. And then the ability to see the future. That, to me, is intelligence.

and then the ability to see the future. That, to me, is intelligence. To understand what you're in and then extrapolate it into the future. That takes a lot of brain power. Animals can't do that. No, they definitely can't. To create imaginary worlds that don't exist. And then on an MRI scan,

scientists ask the question, if the brain sees the future, but the future doesn't exist, then how can a brain scan show you the future? Because it doesn't exist yet. When you brain scan somebody thinking about the future, they think about the past. They rework all the things of the past, and they make a few changes in the past. That's how they extrapolate into the future. That's how we did it. Animals don't do that. Animals simply go by instinct. But what we do is we take the past, modify the past, and then let it flow into the future.

Well, that's what's so fascinating about giant leaps in technology is that they bypass our imagination and create completely new possibilities that we could have never even dreamed we were capable of. Like what we're experiencing right now. I mean, if you go to Star Trek, they had to go Kirk out over. They were basically using walkie-talkies, right? Right. They had never even figured out cell phones yet. Right. But what we're doing now is almost inconceivable.

And the future, when these things do come to us, I mean, what are we looking at? I mean, what are we looking at inside of our lifetime? Right. Well, my attitude is the smallest unit of history is the decade. And if you look at history decade by decade, then you see the enormous progress that we've made. But if you look at the history year by year, it's chaotic. Things go up, things go down, setbacks take place, and so

on and so forth. But when you look at things decade by decade, then you see that there is a progression. There is a path, and the path is toward democracy. The path is toward empowerment. The path is toward creating a middle class. These are the paths that you can see decade by decade that you cannot see year by year. And I think that is a byproduct of technology. Technology has made a middle class possible, for example. Yeah, it really has. And technology is what many people think can raise up some of the more impoverished communities. And that part of the problem is that they don't have access to power, that they don't have access to all the innovations that we have that make life safer, water cleaner, make it easier to live and exist, and have more peace and time to develop new things like we do here. Yeah. And I think quantum computers, I think, will accelerate that whole process.

Because that's the name of the game. Technology just not for technology's sake. Just not to make profits for the companies. Of course, that's also one of the motivating factors. But to enrich the human race, to educate people, to empower people. And I think that's what technology does. Now, AI, of course, will take away jobs too. But it creates jobs just as well.

For example, the blacksmith. We don't have blacksmiths anymore, but we don't cry about it because these blacksmiths became automobile workers. And so new jobs opened up. And the same thing with AI. People pointed to the fact that AI is displacing some workers, especially at the bottom, which is true. But it's also creating new jobs, jobs that no one even conceived of before.

And so it's a balance between job destruction and job creation. And that's the main effect that AI has had on society. It's a beautiful time to be alive, sir. I'm really happy that you're out there talking about these things because it sparks the imagination in such an incredible way. And because of you and because of your work, you really get to understand what the real parameters we're working with here and what we're really talking about, what's possible. Well, I hope so. That's one of the reasons why I do what I do. Some people say, why do you do this?

I mean, you're great at it. You should keep doing it forever. Do you do things independently? Do you have a podcast of your own? I'm on radio. Oh, okay. Yeah. Which station are you on?

Gee, I forgot. I have to go to my website. That's hilarious. I do so many things I can't keep track. But just go to my website, mkaku.org, M-K-A-K-U dot O-R-G. You do really do do a lot of things. Like, how do you maintain your energy levels? Well, like I said, I can't understand how some people are not energized by this.

I mean, some people play golf. Some people do all sorts of sports and things. This is what I do. Yeah. Because it energizes you. You know, after a game of golf, people tell me that they feel renewed. They feel robust. This is what I feel when you talk to people because you're sharing your own excitement. you. You know, after a game of golf, people tell me that they feel renewed, they feel robust.

This is what I feel when you talk to people, because you're sharing your own excitement. You're trying to convey the excitement that you feel to other people. Well, you do a fantastic job at it. You really do. Well, I try. It's always a pleasure to have you here. So tell everybody about your book one more time. Yeah, the book is called Quantum Supremacy. Now, what is that? Quantum Supremacy is a time when quantum computers exceeded the power of a supercomputer on certain very specified problems. We've passed that point. We now have quantum computers that are millions of times faster than a digital computer on certain select questions.

The next step is to make a general purpose quantum computer that works for any problem, not just specific problems. And that may take maybe another decade or so. But again, the stakes are enormous. We're talking about the world economy. Which nation is going to dominate the world economy? What technologies will thrust the world's productive abilities? That's quantum computers. Now, when this does get implemented, what private companies are creating this? Are they working in conjunction with the government? How does all that get controlled? Well, right now, it's a free-for-all. It's a horse race. It's a free-for-all. The horses are horse race. It's a free-for-all. The horses are out of the gate. Basically, it's a few key players, IBM, Google, Honeywell, Microsoft,

the big boys, they're all jumping in the game and investing billions of dollars to create their version of the future. And the Chinese are right there with their parallel version using optical And the Chinese are right there with their parallel version using optical means rather than using electrical means to do calculations. And they know the price is not there yet because, of course, they're not operational for general purpose problems. But they know potentially what the price is, and that's to be able to dominate the world economy. Now, what's the worst case scenario if one of these American corporations, let's just say Microsoft, let's say if Microsoft wins the race and they develop some sort of functional quantum computer that just blows everything else out of the water, they essentially become like a superpower. That's right. Remember when IBM dominated everything and then Microsoft comes along, a bunch of teenagers come along. Everyone thought, these are a bunch of teenagers.

What can they do, right? And then these teenagers took over the world. So we're talking about something on that scale. That's a company that can make a breakthrough to make a workable, general purpose quantum computer. Who wouldn't want to buy one? I mean, you're talking about a runaway bestseller at that point. Yeah, well, also, the power that's attached to that is so enormous that anyone wielding it has unprecedented power. Yeah, remember the PC before Bill Gates and company? Yeah. The PC was a toy, a toy in museums, basically. I mean, it was something that you showed your friends, but you couldn't do anything with it, right?

And then comes Microsoft. We showed, no, no, we can do things. You can do your income tax. You can do spreadsheets. You can do this. You can do this. And then it just took off. So we're at that stage now where the computer is still not ready to be used for general purpose calculations. But when it does happen, we're talking about virtual chemistry, virtual biology. Everyone's going to want to jump in the game. Do you think that preemptively some laws should be put in place to sort of regulate this? Well, I think some laws may have to because, of course, this is potentially earthshaking. The CIA, of course, is well aware of the potential. The government has done seminars on what to do when quantum

computers become commonplace, and they're already making recommendations. So for the post-silicon, no, the post-quantum era, they're making recommendations to how to prepare for the post-quantum era when quantum computers can break any known digital code. What does the world look like if there's no secrets? What does the world look like if there's no top secret information? There's no code cannot be cracked instantaneously? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, some people say, what happens if all the codes are broken? I mean, sometimes this happened in the past. We're still here. It wasn't doomsday.

But it does affect the progress for war. During World War II, we broke the German code. It was the computer that broke the German code. And we knew exactly what the Germans were going to do before war actually broke out in certain areas. And that saved thousands of lives. And so that was a situation where that did make a difference. But in the main, you know,

nations steal secrets from other nations all the time. And we're still here. For now. For now. Right. If we don't blow ourselves up. But it could be commonplace with quantum computers. Stealing from nations could be commonplace with quantum computers. Stealing from nations could

be commonplace. Now, there are ways to thwart a quantum computer. There are ways to get around it. One way is to have a dual system, two systems of the internet, one system based on electricity that all of us use that are subject to hacking, and the other layer based strictly on laser beams, to hacking, and the other layer based strictly on laser beams, a laser internet. That would be a way such that anyone who taps into it illegally would immediately alert people. People would shut down that part of the internet immediately. So that's a possibility that people have talked about, a dual internet. One internet for governments, for big corporation and banks. They would pay premium price to have an invulnerable internet. An internet by the laws of physics can never be broken.

And everybody else would use the ordinary internet. Wouldn't that bother you, though? Like, I don't want corporations to have unlimited computational power. Well, they're paying for it. I mean, what can I say, right? Right. But the power that comes along with something like that, too. Like when you said the laws, like, well, who's writing these laws and who these laws benefit? Well, laws will have to be passed, just like with chatbots. Laws are going to have to be

passed, just like freedom of speech is great, but you cannot say fire in a crowded theater. So laws will have to be passed to regulate chatbots and laws may have to be passed to regulate quantum computers as well. Does it bother you that these and laws may have to be passed to regulate quantum computers as well. Does it bother you that these laws that will have to get passed will get passed by people that probably don't even have a comprehensive understanding of what's possible? Yeah, that's possible. That's always the nightmare, the fact that ultimately politicians will have to carry out people's will. Right. It's not going to be guys like you passing these laws.

No, it'll be people that have to get votes to get reelected. Yes. And God knows what kinds of issues they have to harp on in order to get reelected, right? So that's a danger that the politicians may mess things up. Well, I can only hope they bring in you to have a conversation with them about it before they do something stupid.

Well, let's hope the scientific community has a say. You know, we want to see it at the table. We're not going to make the decisions, but we'd like to influence the decisions. Well, that would be the best way to do it. But do you think that even the scientists or the physicists can have a real understanding of what is to come? It's just educated guessing, right? It's hard to say. When the transistor was invented, people thought maybe it would be

used to signal ships at sea. They didn't know what the transistor was used for. Now we realize it changed society. Human society changed because of the transistor. But we didn't know it at that time. Well, listen, again, it's always a pleasure to have you here. You're a national treasure. I really believe that. Well, thank you. You're such a great communicator with this stuff, and it's so exciting, and I'm

going to listen to this back and forth and try to figure out most of the stuff you said. Quantum supremacy, how the quantum computer revolution will change everything, and it is available now. Did you do the audio book? No, we had somebody else do it. Damn available now. Did you do the audiobook? No, we had somebody else do it. Why didn't you do it? I want to hear you. It would take four days, locked up in a room, nonstop, to read a book of that size. You're busy. I understand. Well, I'll try to listen to it in your voice.

Thank you, sir. I really appreciate you always. My pleasure. Great honor. Thank you. My honor. Bye, everybody.