The Joe Rogan Experience - #2036 - Kurt Angle

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Kurt Angle is an Olympic gold medalist, retired professional wrestler, actor, and host of "The Kurt Angle Show." Watch his new documentary "Angle" streaming on Peacock. www.kurtanglebrand.com

the Joe Rogan experience with the greatest pro wrestling fan in the history of the world Tony Hinchcliffe and the great and powerful Kurt Angle it's an honor sir thank you for being here man thanks for having me on Joe dude I've been a fan of yours for a long time. What you did in the Olympics with a broken neck is just nothing short of insane. How did you do that? I didn't have a choice. I mean, what happened was I got thrown on my head in the first round of the Olympic trials. Pull that microphone up close to you.

There you go. What happened was I got thrown on my head the first round of the Olympic trials, and I broke my neck, and I didn't know it, so I kept wrestling. My arms were numb, and my neck was in excruciating pain, and I wrestled through the semis and won, and then I had to go on to the finals and wrestle, and I won there. So I won the first round of the Olympic trials

with my neck broken. I went home the next day, and I went to my doctor, and he took an MRI of my neck. He said, you have four discs, or four broken vertebrae and two discs sticking directly under your spinal cord. He said, you can't wrestle anymore. You're done. I was devastated, man. I didn't know what to do. I figured I better get a second opinion. So I went to another doctor and he said basically the same thing, but he said, when is the next round of trials? I said, six weeks. He said, you know what? I might be able to get you ready by then. I said,

what's your plan? He said, well, you're not I might be able to get you ready by then. I said, what's your plan? He said, well, you're not going to be able to train much. You're going to have to let your neck rest and heal for the next six weeks. And it won't be completely healed, but it'll be healed enough that you can still go. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to have a doctor travel with you, and this doctor's going to stick you with 12 shots of Novocaine in your neck five minutes before each one of your matches. He said, therefore, you won't feel the pain. You'll forget your neck is broken and you'll wrestle more freely.

But he said, I'm warning you, an hour after your matches are over, you're going to be in excruciating pain from the abuse your neck takes during those matches. And he said, are you okay with this? And I said, yes, and it worked. Wow. What a decision to make. Yeah. I didn't have a choice.

I mean, there was no guarantee I was going to make the Olympic team in 2000 or 2004. This is my one time. This is my one shot. Imagine those guys you beat, realizing a guy with a fucking broken neck just kicked my ass. I never thought about that. Not only did he beat me, not only did he win, he won with a broken neck. Amazing. Yeah. So I went to the Olympics, not only did he win, he won with a broken neck. Amazing. Yeah. So I went to the Olympics, and we did the same thing there.

Wow. And I was able to get through it, and that's when I retired. And I retired for a few years, and that was that. Did it heal up 100%, or has it always been fucking with you since then? I always had problems with it, especially my motor skills in my hands. I broke my neck four more times in the WWE, and it got worse and worse. I mean, I have nerve damage in my neck. I lost three inches in both arms, and they atrophied because my neck was just so messed up.

I've had five surgeries, and none of them have really worked. I'm going to end up having to have fusion, which will be down the line. Have you done stem cells? I tried. It didn't work. It didn't do it? No. Where'd you go?

I went to South America. I forget which country. I can't remember. Columbia. Yeah. Columbia, yeah. Did you go to BioAccelerator? Did you go to that place?

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. A lot of athletes athletes a lot of fighters go down there yeah it didn't work for me really just so much damage huh yeah yeah just too much i wonder if you just kept going so what's the extent of it now like um i you know what i i can't feel my pinky fingers um you know i have a lot of atrophy in my arms. I don't have a lot of strength. I can curl for like 20-pound dumbbells. When I do triceps, I can only push the weights about 60 pounds forward. It's just I don't have a lot of strength in my upper body.

And so the thing is, all right, if you look at my chest right here, you'll see there's a dip here. Yeah. Okay. That's from my neck. That's a nerve that died and no longer have this muscle in my chest. I have a complete ripple through my chest. It will never come back. And I'm afraid it's going to happen again, so I'm going to have to have fusion sooner than later

because if I don't, the damage is going to get worse and worse. And then, you know, my arms are going to end up just shrinking to nothing. Have you looked into replacement discs? No, but you know what? I just got an email from a doctor in New York, and he told me he was doing it. And so I'm going to call him in this next couple of weeks to see if we can set up an appointment. Al Jermaine Sterling, the former UFC Bantamweight champion, he injured his neck really badly and then got fouled in a title fight. Actually, it was very controversial because Pyotr Yan, the Russian cat who hit him with a knee to the head while he was down, lost his title that way.

with a knee to the head while he was down, lost his title that way. So he lost the title because even though Al Jermaine's a sensational fighter, everybody was giving him shit because he won the title because of that. So then he goes and gets a disc replaced in his neck, defends the title, and dominates Piotr Jan in the rematch. Beats him in the rematch. And then goes on to defend the title a couple more times and then just lost it to Sugar Sean O'Malley. But he's got an artificial disc in his neck.

It worked extremely well for him. It worked, and he's good. He's good to go now. I need to look into that. Titanium. It's a titanium articulating disc. So instead of fusing the disc, this titanium—see if you can find it online, Jamie—articulating titanium disc replacement for spinal vertebrae.

Cervical, I think eddie bravo has one in his lower back too and they so they do lower backs too yeah the lower backs and what they do is they this is what it looks like so they they instead of fusing your discs which the problem with fusing your vertebrae is you no longer have any movement. With this, it allows you to have movement. And I think it lasts for a long fucking time. You know, it's crazy. I had a doctor when I broke my neck the second time. He wanted me to do fusion.

And he told me that he's going to have to do three levels and that I'd have to retire. And I was like, oh, that might not be an option. It was the same doctor that Stone Cold Steve Austin had. steve still has problems to this day with the fusion everybody i know that had fusion has real problems yeah i see that's why i'm nervous about getting it and that's why i'm glad i found this doctor in new york city that can do it i i didn't know it was like there there was no there was a doctor out there that could do that kind of stuff i'll connect you to al germain we'll find out who he used but his results are excellent i mean he went on to defend the title i mean and you know wrestling he's a wrestler so like he got caught in neck cranks guillotines fought his way out of stuff with this artificial disc that's crazy he's fighting with an

artificial fighting and winning against the best in the world. That's ridiculous, man. Incredible. And it seems like that was a pretty quick turnover because that rematch, there wasn't too much space in between. Yeah, it was pretty quick. I mean, I think he was back fighting within eight months. You know what? I was told that when you have that done, you literally are out of the hospital and you're working out like three days later.

Yeah. It's like it doesn't really working out like three days later. Yeah. You know, it's like it doesn't really dehabilitate you that much. Yeah. You're back to your normal life pretty quickly. I think it might. I mean, I don't want to say. I don't. I'm obviously not a doctor.

I don't know if you knew that. I know. I didn't. It's. I don't know what the best options are, but it's an option. And I think it's probably a better option in some cases than fusion. Oh, definitely. Who wants metal on their neck?

Yeah. You lose your mobility. Yes. Have you ever seen Yoel Romero run? Yoel Romero got his neck fucked up in Cuba and they just fused the whole thing. So his neck is like... So when he runs... See if you can find

a video of Yoel Romero running. His shoulders are up high. Watch, look at him run. Oh, my gosh. So his neck doesn't move. No mobility at all. Zero mobility. Wow.

And one of the best athletes that's ever competed in the UFC with a fused neck. Oh, wow. Like, there's no flexibility there. Yeah, there's no movement. There's no movement. There's no movement. So the movement is all absorbed in the lower spine. And, you know, obviously it has giant traps and, you know, huge muscles. Would that give him spinal damage down the road?

I mean, who knows? I don't know, you know. But, you know, he had this done quite a while ago. This was when he was competing as an amateur wrestler. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, and went on and was one of, I mean, fought for the title a couple times. a while ago this is when he was competing as an amateur wrestler so wow that's incredible yeah and went on and was one i mean fought for the title a couple times was one of the best middleweights in the history of the ufc he was an animal and just couldn't move his neck that's crazy yeah you're

fighting you can't even turn your head yeah the crazy thing is he could take a hell of a shot and i've always wondered if one of the reasons why he takes a hell of a shot is that his neck doesn't move. It doesn't snap. Like it doesn't whip when he gets hit. Yeah. You know, we've talked about this on the podcast so many times, but just the physical abuse that wrestlers take, both amateur wrestlers and then maybe even more so in the pro wrestling game. It's crazy. You know what?

and maybe even more so in the pro wrestling game. It's crazy. You know what? I've been injured a lot in amateur wrestling, a lot. But nothing compares to pro wrestling. I have been so beaten up there. I barely was ever 100% healthy. I would tear a hamstring or a groin or whatever.

That would be something small. And, you know, it would debilitate me a little bit, but I was still able to work around it. You learn as a pro wrestler how to work around injuries. I actually wrestled Brock Lester in WrestleMania 19, the main event with my neck broken. I had to have surgery the following day.

It's crazy. The pro wrestling is just ridiculous. You wrestle, you're on plywood. There's a cloth above it, but it's literally hard like plywood. There's no spring under the ring or it's not a box spring or a bed. It's plywood. That's what you bump on.

That's crazy. That's so crazy. Why do they do it that way? I don't know because it makes the sound. Yeah, it makes the noise. It makes a loud sound. That's why they don't care about the health of people. They just care about the sound it makes.

When you're at one live, it doesn't really translate to TV as cool as it is live. You hear that pop and they probably, I think they have microphones underneath and stuff that accelerate it through the speakers and like boom, boom. It's very, very exciting. It's one of those things

that's a thousand times better live. Isn't there a way they can put a layer of wood in a layer of wood and then the foam so the wood slams into the wood but you feel the foam? Well, if you do that, then they see your little feet pushing into the foam. Oh, yeah. How do you get a run on it? Yeah, I guess. They're like, that's a bed.

I mean, not a foam like a bed. I mean, a foam like a wrestling mat, like something. That might work. It's not a bad idea. Better for the athletes. Definitely. You know, like a tumble track or something, like something that has some give to it.

Well, hopefully WWE's listening. Well, the UFC and the WWE are together now. Yes, they are. Which is very interesting. Very interesting. That's a. Yeah. Well, the UFC and the WWE are together now. Yes, they are. Which is very interesting. Very interesting. That's a gigantic corporation. You think they're going to cross the road? I don't know.

I think they're definitely going to cross promote. What I'm interested to see is, like, you know, obviously Brock was the most successful pro wrestler to ever compete in MMA. And CM Punk tried it. I'm going to be interested to see how many other guys. Bobby Lashley did it. How many other guys are going Punk tried it? I'm gonna be interested to see how many other guys Bobby Lashley did it How many other guys gonna try it? I? When I look at that partnership, I see a lot of fighters crossing over to wrestling

Yeah, but I don't see many wrestlers crossing over to fighting. I mean, that's a completely different beast Yeah, I don't think there are many wrestlers that could go in there and mix it up with those guys Well, that's what's so sensational about Brock. It is. You know what? He's adapted to everything in his life. The kid is unbelievable. For his size, he's 310 pounds. He's the best athlete I've ever been in a ring with.

I mean, he's explosive. He's quick. He's fast. He's strong as hell. I actually did wrestle him one time for real. I actually, I did wrestle him one time for real. And the thing was, what happened was, when he came up from training from OVW, someone went up to him and asked him how he'd do against Kurt Angle.

He said, I'd kick his ass. So, okay, they're starting the pie. You know, they're getting shit rolling. So the guy comes to me and says, hey, Brock said he could beat you in a wrestle match. So I went up to Brock and I said, hey, let's get in the ring right now. And he said, no, no, I have sandals on. I said, let's take our shoes off. I said, we'll go barefoot.

He said, no. So I let it go for the week. The following week, he was in the ring with Big Show. And they were wrestling for real. And Big Show was about 530 pounds at the time. Brock was double-legging him, picking him up and slamming him. I'm like, holy shit. I don't know if I can beat this guy, right?

So Big Show was facing me. He was on the other side of Brock. And Brock's back was to me. And I said, Big Show, get out. And he gets out. And I sneak up behind Brock. And I tap him on his shoulder. And I go, it's time to go.

So we went. And we went for about 15 minutes. And the wrestlers tell you that I kicked his ass, that I dominated him. That's not true. I beat him, but I didn't beat him. I took him down twice. He didn't take me down at all. I mean, it wasn't like a dominating performance.

I did beat him, but he's the real deal. Oh, he's the real deal. He really is, yeah. You know what? I'm surprised he didn't train for the Olympics. I really am. Yeah. I wonder how he would have done. I think he would have medaled. He really is, yeah. You know what? I'm surprised he didn't train for the Olympics. I really am. Yeah. I wonder how he would have done.

I think he would have medaled. That would have been amazing. The athlete he is, yeah. Yeah. Oh, he's an insane athlete. I'm sure you've seen his combine scores. Oh, yeah, yeah. Crazy. You know what?

He was the final cut for the Minnesota Vikings, and they wanted him to go to NFL Europe for a year because they had it back then. And Brock said, I don't want to travel and he said I'll just do UFC like you know he's switching sport after sport doesn't matter to him he knows he's going to be good at anything he does that's incredible yeah you know the video we've talked about this so many times video of him doing that front flip and landing on his head oh god that would have killed was with me. Yeah, WrestleMania 19. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That was with you.

That video, that would have probably killed most people on Earth. I thought he broke his neck. My neck was broken. Yeah. My neck was broken, and Brock was supposed to win the title for me. When he did this, I was like, oh, shit, I'm going to have to pin him. I mean, that is insane. Right on his head, on plywood.

So I go and cover him, and I'm like, please kick out. Don't let me hold this title for another month. And he kicks out. And then I'm going to start talking to him here, and I'm going to say, Brock, are you okay? And he's like, I don't know. And I was like, Brock, are you okay? He said, I think so.

And so I said, I'm going to pick you up. I want you to give me the F5. Can you do it? He said, I think so. And so I said, I'm going to pick you up. I want you to give me the F5. Can you do it? He said, I think so. Right here. Wow. And you're grabbing his neck. That's what's so crazy.

I know. You're grabbing his neck and he just landed on it. You know what? He didn't hurt his neck at all. He got a concussion. He got a concussion. He didn't hurt his neck. No.

No. He doesn't have a neck. That's so crazy. It's so crazy that he came back from that. It's so crazy that he came back from that. Yeah. So crazy that he came back from that. And that was it. I was relieved.

I got to drop the title and get my surgery the next day. Wow. I was supposed to win. That wasn't supposed to happen. They wanted me to have a nice long title reign, but I broke my neck. Brock broke my neck the month before in a wrestling match. And so I had to, I went to the doctor. He said, you have to have surgery.

So I told Vince, I'm not going to wrestle at WrestleMania. And I wasn't going to do it. And I was going to have surgery right away. And I went to my next door neighbors. And this kid, he has Down syndrome, really nice kid. His name's Johnny. And he said, Kurt, I heard you're not wrestling at Wrestlemania and he gives me this magazine it's direct tv and I'm on the cover with Brock he said I really wish you would be able to wrestle

and I thought you know what I'm gonna wrestle to lose a title to Brock on Smackdown that's what Vince wanted me to do he wanted Brock just to kick me in the gut get me an f5 and beat me I said I might as well just go to WrestleMania and tough it out. Go ahead and do it with a broken neck. Is it going to make it worse? If it does, it does. But back then, there were no liabilities.

Now you can't do that stuff. There's no way that WWE's going to clear you to go out there with a broken neck and perform. How did Brock break your neck the month before that? I was on his back. I had him in a choke hold. I had him in a choke hold, and I was on his back.

And he was on the other side of the ring. He's really strong, and he could run really fast. So I'm on his back, and he starts running to the other side of the ring, and he goes to turn. So I hit the turnbuckle. Well, we only turned sideways, my head whiplash really fast and it snapped. I heard it snap and I couldn't feel my arm. I couldn't raise my arm.

You could tell in the match when you watch it. My arms down, I couldn't raise it. My neck was in pain. I knew something was wrong. And so I, you know, the next day I went to the doctor and got the MRI and I broke my neck again. And so I decided that I was gonna have the surgery and then I actually put it off till after WrestleMania.

They had again, but what's crazy is I broke my neck again, Brock broke my neck again, six months later. He hit me over the head with a chair like this, straight over top. You're supposed to bring it sideways so you don't have the pressure of your neck, you know, your head going down your neck. So he hit me straight over and broke my neck again. I had five vertebrae I cracked. And so I was out again for about, I had surgery again.

I was out for about three months. I came back for WrestleMania and I broke my neck again. I was out for about three months. I came back for WrestleMania, and I broke my neck again. Oh, my God. Okay, so I was rushing back before my neck was completely healed. That's what happened. I broke my neck four times in two and a half years in WWE. And what kind of surgery did they do? A quick fix surgery.

It's called a lap endectomy. They go in. They let the vertebrae heal. That's why you wait a couple months, let it heal. But they go in and they cut the disc, whatever was blocking the nerves or whatever's sticking in your spinal cord, they cut out part of the disc and they leave the rest in there. So right now I have like a little bit of disc in like three different levels of my neck and they're, they're, they're fusion together right now. Cause I don't have enough disc. And that's why I need to get this rubber disc docker. Yeah.

I really do. Well, I'll connect you to Aljamain. Please do, man. As quick as I can, as soon as we're done here. I wish I'd known about it before. It's such a dangerous area of your body to be injured. It is. It is.

It controls everything. Yeah. You know, it controls your legs too. Yeah. Do they think that, so right now, is it pushing against something right now? Is that why you're getting the atrophy? I have nerves that are being pinched and they're not being able to flow down my arms. So that's, my fingers are freezing cold.

They're always cold. Wow. I don't have any circulation. My arms, I've lost, look, this shows you how much weight, how much muscle I lost. This was all extra skin because of where the size of my arms used to be. And I'm just,

I'm barely making it right now. I literally, you know, my arms are 15 inches now. They used to be 18, 19 inches. So it's, you know, I'm struggling right now. It is the sheer volume that you guys have to do in terms of the amount of shows it's just such an insane workload on your body the punishment that you guys take yeah the fact that you do like how many nights i mean how many nights a year were you wrestling well we were probably going 260, 270.

I mean, there was a time in WWE where they were going 320. It was ridiculous. They were going seven days a week and doing nine shows. So they'd do five Monday through Friday, and then they would do four on the weekend. They'd do a double shot on the weekends. That's how it was back in the 80s and 90s but then around 2000s when they changed it they started having five shows a week so you had two days off usually one day was a travel day so you really had one day off where you were at home and on top of

all that at your level those are longer matches you know it's not even a normal thing you were doing the main event level yeah you're to have a lot longer matches, yeah. Like those are 35 minutes or an hour or 50 minutes or 40 minutes of putting on the biggest show. Instead of 8, 10, 12, yeah. I know there was a time where people were talking to you about competing in MMA. Yes. You know what? I've got this story up wrong so many times.

Dana and I have been on the opposite ends of the spectrum with this thing, but now I think I got it right. There were things I would leave out. But Dana treated me really well. I'm not going to lie to you. He offered me a couple of deals. The thing is, the second time,

the first time I won't even talk about it, the second time, he wanted me to go on the show Ultimate Fighter with Kimbo Slice. And I said, Dana, those guys don't get paid. They're on that show for free. I said, I need to get paid. He said, well, I'll give you a substantial amount of money. So he was going to pay me to be on the show.

But he said, if you win, you're going to get a six-fight deal. And if you lose, I'll probably still give you a six fight deal because I think you're going to be really good. And he said, but I need you to take a physical. I said, okay, let's take the physical. Well, I took the physical and I didn't pass it. So I'm glad I didn't because my neck and all this stuff, I broke my neck five times up until this point when I went to see Dana. And I couldn't do five push-ups. And here I am. I want to fight with these world-class fighters.

And my neck is, like, so messed up. My arms, I can't do push-ups. I can't do anything. And I would have got my butt handed to me. I mean, I don't even, I might have been, I might have ended up getting paralyzed, to be honest with you. I was in no shape or condition to be able to compete with those guys.

And I was fooling myself, and I'm glad I failed the physical. God. Because I probably would have went through with it. That's a different mentality. That is a different mentality. I mean, you want to talk about toughness? The toughness of pro wrestlers, the mentality that you have to have to be able to do 260-plus nights a year, that's insane. Yeah, you know what? I wouldn't say you're a badass.

I think that you're a glutton for punishment. You're abusing yourself. That's what it is. You're not beating up people. You're beating yourself up. That's what it is. But you can do it over and over. Just the fact that you knew you had a broken neck going into that match with Brock,

who the fuck does that? I don't know. When you look back on it now, is there anything you would have changed? Well, throughout my career, was there anything that I would change? Yeah. Well, we'll get into this topic, I guess. After I broke my neck the second time, the first time in WWE, I was introduced to painkillers.

And when I start taking them, I really liked it. I mean, it masked the pain, I couldn't feel the pain. It kind of gave me an energetic feel. It didn't make me feel nauseous like it does a lot of people. And I started taking it. I was taking one every four to six hours, like I was told. But after a while, you build a tolerance and one doesn't work anymore. Then you have to take two and two led to four. Was this Oxycontins? This was extra strength Vicodin. Oxycontins are a lot more powerful than Vicodin. But I was taking 65 extra strength Vicodin a day.

Whoa. That's how out of control I got. And I was hiding it from the company. And, I mean, I was in serious trouble. And does that even make you high at that point? Does it just keep you from going into withdrawals? It kept me from going through withdrawals? It kept me from going through withdrawals,

but there were times where I passed out. I mean, the company knew. Some of my friends knew. You know, I'll give you an example. There was one point. This is how bad it got. There was one point in my career

where my brother called me. I was at a house show, an un-televised show for WWE. It was the night before I was going to have the biggest match of my career with Brock Lesnar the next day. It was an Iron Man match on SmackDown. And my brother calls me and says, hey, your sister just died of a heroin overdose. And it crushed me. I mean, I was crying. I was in such pain thinking about my sister

who was only 40 years old, dying from a heroin overdose. And the thing is, I wasn't able to talk to her because I told her eight months prior, if she doesn't get clean, I'm not going to talk to you. So I didn't talk to her for eight months. And then this happens. So here I am, I'm in the hotel room and I look at my pills. I said, fuck it. I took 20 of them, threw them in my mouth, chewed them up and swallowed them. I didn't wake up till five o'clock in the afternoon the next day. And I had the biggest match of my career that night.

So what time did you have to be to the arena, and did you do it? Well, we had to be there at 1, but I didn't get there until 5.30. Right. Yeah. But, yeah, I ended up doing it. The WLB was trying to call me the whole time. They were like, they wanted to tell me that, hey, you can go home, plan a funeral for your sister, you don't have to do this match.

But I kept thinking, I know my sister will want me to. And I knew that I wouldn't have to feel that pain of losing my sister, at least for that hour. So I went ahead and did it. And it was actually one of my best performances of my career, which is kind of crazy. But that was a really rough time. The painkillers are the one thing that I do regret I did in the company. I wish I was never introduced to them. But do you think you had to take them?

I mean, it sounds like you were in such excruciating pain all the time. There were times I needed to take them, and there were times I didn't. But I was so far deep into it that I had to. I mean, I'm not going to lie to you. I would go to sleep at night. I would have 15 pills sitting on the desk next to me for when I wake up because I knew I was going to have withdrawal when I got up. I wake up sweating, shaking, and I grab those, throw them in my mouth, chew them up, and

swallow them. 15 at a time. 15 at a time. Wow. Yeah. Most people, 15 at a time will kill you. Well, it didn will kill you. Well, they killed me. I took 20 at one time when my sister died.

So I've been really lucky. I've been blessed. Honestly, I don't think I should be here today. How did you get off of them? Okay. Well, what happened was I left the WWE because they wanted me to go to rehab, but I didn't want to go. So I ended up going to another company called Impact Wrestling.

And I got my painkiller problem under control there because I found a doctor that got me on MS-Contin. There are two morphine pills. They're very tiny, but they'll keep you from going through withdrawal. So I would take one in the morning, one at night, and no more painkillers. They were painkillers because they were morphine, but they were high dose. It was just two of them that I had to take. Well, I started having anxiety about breaking my neck over and over again, so they put me on Xanax.

So now I'm taking Xanax. And then I switched to TNA, Impact Wrestling, and everybody drank there, so I started drinking alcohol. So I'm mixing and having these cocktails, Everybody drank there, so I started drinking alcohol. So I'm mixing and having these cocktails, and I'm so out of control that I'm driving, okay, from town to town drinking a 12-pack of beer,

and I got four DUIs in five years. I lost my reputation, everything I worked for. I was at the lowest point in my life. And I remember calling my wife from jail after my fourth DUI, and she said, listen, I can't do this anymore. You either go to rehab or I'm taking the kids and I'm leaving. So I went to rehab because I didn't want to lose my wife and my kids. And I was scared in rehab. I literally thought I was so nervous.

First of all, the withdrawal was the worst experience I ever had. I'll never go through that again because I'm never going to take another painkiller. That was the worst thing I've ever done or drink another drop of alcohol that was the absolute worst thing I've ever been through and I forget what I was gonna say though but so with the rehab do they how do they get you off of it they don't do it cold turkey right they do yes they do I thought they're gonna we me off They put you in a room and let you sleep and they check on you every couple hours. How many days? About six days for me to go through the withdrawal symptoms.

Oh, my God. It seemed like forever. It seemed like six months. So six days, you just in a room by yourself. Yep. Just thinking. Yeah. And you know what?

And you want to stay in there. And they start forcing you out. You got, you got to come move around. You got to come out and talk to people. You got to, you know, live your life and you don't, you, you're so exhausted for the first two and a half weeks. I didn't want to move. I just want to stay in my bed, but they were forcing me to get out of bed and, and being a converse, converse or conversating with people and trying to, you know, go and eat and go to meetings and do all that stuff you do in rehab. So it was really tough.

How long did it take before you felt normal? Well, I would say two weeks where I really felt normal. But the thing is, the last two weeks, because I spent a month in rehab, the last two weeks I was so nervous that I was gonna fuck up again. I literally didn't want to leave rehab. I was scared that I was gonna go back to it

right when I got out. So many guys do. It's so crazy. That's why, I hear all these stories, and I'm like, oh, it's gonna happen to you too, man. And, you know, but the one thing that I kept going across in my mind was going through withdrawal. I don't want to do that again.

And I know if I start taking them, I'm going to have to experience that again. And I don't want to. It was that bad. It was that bad. What is it like? What is withdrawal feeling? Okay, you're sweating because you're hot and you're cold at the same time. You're shitting your pants.

You're throwing up. You can't think straight. Your body's shaking. You're getting hot sweats, cold sweats. Everything's, you feel like you don't have anything inside of you. No insides, no organs, nothing. You feel like you're hollow. It's just the craziest thing. It's the most painful thing I've ever gone through. And, you know, I'm sure people have been in a lot more pain than that with certain things they've had done to themselves. But for me, that was the worst. What's crazy is when you think about how mentally strong you are, how difficult it is for you to go through that. Now, think of the average person.

You know, have you seen that painkiller show on Netflix? I watched some of it. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking what they did to this country is so crazy. Oh, I know. They're advertising it. Hey, this is the best drug since whatever, and this will keep you moving every day and give you a healthy lifestyle.

Meanwhile, they didn't tell you that they're opiates and they're addictive and that they could kill you. Yeah. The one to start and the one to stay with. What was the you that they're opiates and they're addictive and that they could kill you. Yeah. Yeah. The one to start and the one to stay with. What was the slogan that they used, Jamie? Do you remember? We talked to Peter Burke who made that show. And, you know, he had to obviously had to do a lot of research on the Sackler family and what they did and how they engineered this and how they knew that.

I mean, people weren't just taking painkillers back then. It wasn't a normal thing. Right. You know, like when I was a kid, we talked about this, when I was a kid, for someone to take heroin was crazy. When you found out someone was taking heroin, you're like, Jesus Christ, Mike's taking heroin? Right. But when those pills came around, because it was prescribed by a doctor, everybody's

like, it's fine. It's okay. I thought it was too. You know, this is legal. My doctor's giving it to me. This is what I need. But I knew, you know, after I started taking more than four and I was taking five, six, seven, eight, I knew I wasn't doing the right thing. I knew that I was going against what the doctors wanted.

Because you know what I would do? I literally, I had 12 doctors that I was calling. Oh. You know what I would do? I literally, I had 12 doctors that I was calling. Oh. Okay, so, and I had 12 different pharmacies because you can't go to the same pharmacy twice in one month. Oh, my God.

Okay, and I had a Mexican contact where I got them illegally. So I was getting about 2,700 pills a month. Oh, my God. That is, and you know what? That's all you think about. that's all you think about. That's all you think about is how you're gonna get your drug the next time. So I have this calendar and every day it tells me which doctor to contact or contact your Mexican contact down in Mexico.

So I have all these things set up so that I can get what I need. And it takes over your life. You no longer live in your life you do your marriage you know you're not worried about your marriage your kids your job nothing you're just worried about how you're gonna get the drugs so crazy and it's so crazy that this didn't exist this didn't exist. This didn't exist in America until, what, a couple decades ago when it started? Yeah. Now, who's the people that—

The Sackler family. Okay. Are they affiliated with Purdue? Yes. Purdue Pharma. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

The story from the documentary is sensational. The series on Netflix is sensational. And it just shows how fucking evil, evil those people were. Well, I wonder if they actually knew the dangers that were involved when they first started. It seems like they knew. They did? It seems like they knew a lot. They absolutely knew it was addictive. That's why the FDA wouldn't approve it.

And then they took this guy. There was one guy from the FDA that approved it. And this guy would not approve it. He was like, this is heroin. Like, I'm not going to approve this. And then they took this guy and they took him to a fucking hotel and they had him in a hotel for two days. I don't know what they did.

Like, no one knows what they did in this hotel for two days. But after the two days, he came out and instead of saying it's non-addictive, for the first time ever, they said it is believed to not be addictive. Wow. They said the opposite. Somebody said it. Somebody believes it. Do you believe it?

Yeah, I don't think it's addictive. Okay, it's believed to not be addictive. I mean, to use that sort of terminology, you just need one person or someone. Yeah, just approval for one person. For one of the most dangerous drugs that this country has ever experienced. It is the most dangerous drug. You look at the amount of people that have died from it. I mean, the opiate overdoses in America are somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 a year, which is so crazy.

So in 10 years, a million people die from this stuff. And who knows how many people committed suicide, how many people died died from car accidents how many how many lives and families were wrecked yeah that would the peg shows being affiliated with that too yeah yes yeah so so many and it's just it's just it's just insane it's it's insane how much power money has and that a pharmaceutical company could influence people in that way and in this documentary they show in the docu-series rather, they show how they did it. And it's scary because a lot of those doctors, you know, when they're younger or whatever, they're like, I want to help people. I want to make people feel better.

I want to help humans. And then they're in the business a little bit and they realize, well, if you want a vacation or if you want a yacht, if you want this, you've got to play the game. Yep. Also, you have liability insurance. You also have medical school bills. You have the cost of running your business. It becomes like the stock market. It becomes like anything else where you're just thinking about numbers.

You're not thinking about people, and it's not your responsibility. And the crazy thing is then they would shame the people when there was a strategy they had to say, oh, you're a drug addict. It's not the pills are the problem. You're a drug addict. You're an addict. And the people are like, oh, I'm a drug addict. Like, no, they turn you into one.

Everybody's a drug addict. If you give them 20 fucking pills a day, they all become drugs. Every human being. Every human being, if you give them Oxycontin all day, they will become that. Everybody has the ability to be addicted. Oh, yeah. I believe that. Everyone.

I think everyone. I had a wisdom tooth taken out like a decade ago. And this doctor was so nice. He was like a cool, smart guy. And he's like, I'm going to send you home with these 12 Vicodin or whatever they were. And if you feel pain, take one or two of them. You'll be great. And

I started to feel pain like four or six hours after. I remember it was the day that the WWE Network came out. Because I got it. I'm like, this will be fun to watch. Catch up on old stuff, which it was. It was amazing when that debuted. But anyway. So I have that on. Pain starts kicking in in and I take a half of one, just a half.

And 20 minutes later, I just start sweating and smiling like a super villain. I mean, I could not take the smile off of my face. I was just in glory. And immediately I'm like, this is bad. And even though I had never been happier, like my body was just, it was like just an overall orgasm for the entire mind, body, all the way down to your toes. Your fingertips are sweating with excitement. And I went and I flushed those other whatever nine and a half or 11 and a half pills down the toilet. I knew immediately.

I'm like, this is trouble. Good for you. I mean, even if I would have taken the whole one, I probably would have been, I could have changed my fucking entire life right then and there. Easy. Yeah. Well, they weren't around when I got my first knee surgery. But when I got my first knee surgery, when I was in the hospital,

they had me on a morphine drip. And I remember lying in that hospital bed feeling so good. I was like, this is amazing. And I had a ACL reconstruction where they did the patella tendon graph, right? So, you know, they cut your knee open, they take a slice of your patella tendon, and then they screw it in where your ACL used to be. And then they have you on this constant motion machine while you're in the hospital bed. So this thing is extending your knee and closing it out. And then you had a button, and you hit the button, and the morphine drips. And I'm just lying in bed.

I should have been in agony. And I'm like, wee. No, wait a minute. There had to be a limitation to what you could. Yeah, imagine. I don't know. I mean, we're talking 1993. I don't know. Oh, there talking 1993 i don't know oh there might

not have been that was my first one and my second one my second knee surgery i got was in 2000 my second acl reconstruction i got was in 2003 i think and uh maybe four and that time i didn't take anything i was like i'm not taking shit taking shit because I don't like the way those things make me feel. I don't like it, and I'm scared. Well, I like it too much. Yeah. Well, I had friends in high school that were addicted to drugs. So before I was 30 years old, all I did was drink.

I would occasionally have, you know, I'd smoke pot maybe like six times until I was like 30 years old. Six times until I was like 30 years old. And then when I had surgery, I was like, I just associated pain pills and that stuff with your life falling apart. Luckily. Because I know how good it was. Peter Berg was talking about that. He took one recreationally. And he's like, this is amazing.

He's like, oh, my God. I can never do that again. Because it's fucking – because it's just too good. It's too good and that's the problem too many people that get hooked on that stuff the problem is their life is shit because they've been a drug addict and then they get off of it and so they're super depressed because their life is terrible because they wrecked their life and the only thing that makes them feel good is the drugs you're absolutely right and no one can tell you any different no one can fix you you got to kind of do it yourself.

Your family can tell you. You've got to stop doing drugs. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you go buy someone. It's all you. Yeah. And it's wild. It only takes one charismatic, smart-sounding, seeming doctor.

Because I've always avoided drugs as well. And it was just one orthodontist it's like yeah told no problem whatsoever just take one of these you're gonna it's got me did you have no worries no problem give them to you even if you're not in pain that's what's crazy I had a nose operation that deviated septum fix and my doctor prescribed me two different kinds of painkillers I didn't take and I was like I'm not in pain and he he's like, but you might be. I'm like, Jesus Christ.

I'm like, I'm not feeling this. He's pushing him on you. Yeah, he was pushing him on me. He was telling me to take him. These guys want to be one of the 12 doctors on a list. You get their kickback. If you're supposed to, like, those numbers, you got to keep those numbers coming in.

They'll come to you, hey, buddy, what's going on? So they actually do get paid? Oh, yes. Wow. Yeah. There's some sort of kickbacks. And there's also bribes. And the bribes are in the form of vacations and dinners. And my wife's nurse, my wife's mother, rather, was a nurse. And she would say that the pharmaceutical reps would come to the clinic, to the hospital, and they would like, take everybody to dinner. Come on. We and they would take everybody to dinner. Come on. We're going to take you to dinner. They'd take them out to these nice steak dinners, and everybody would eat whatever you want.

A nice bottle of wine. And so they were on the side of these pharmaceutical drug companies. So when the patients would say, hey, what do you think about this stuff? They were like, oh, you should take it. It's very good. It's very good. It's a good company. So it's just you build loyalty with these people.

You know, Brigham from Ways to Well. Brigham started off his career. He's a good buddy of ours who now owns a stem cell clinic. And now he's into wellness and prescribes peptides. Is he in the United States? Yes, he's in Austin. And, you know, back then when he was a pharmaceutical drug rep, it was all about relationships with the people. Like you would go to the kids games.

You would know all these people. You would know all the doctors and nurses. You had to be on a first name. But you were their friend. And so the more they liked you, the more likely they were to prescribe your drugs, the more they would give it out to people. They were building trust. Building trust. And in Painkiller, in the documentary, the Netflix series,

they hire these really hot young girls that were the representatives that would go to the doctors and sell this stuff and bring the brochures, and they had a little spiel that they would sell. It's crazy. It's crazy what they did. I mean, they followed the law. Look, if you want to be an evil sociopath, it's really the way they did mean they they followed the law look if you want to be an evil sociopath it's really that that the way they did it was that's the way to do it and it's the

most effective way to make a lot of money they made billions and you know what they didn't break the law i guess sort of kind of but what's interesting now is because of the netflix series they were going to sign some sort of a deal where they give $6 billion and they were going to have immunity to prosecution. And a judge looked at it after the series and went, hold on. We're not signing off on this. Like, we need to find out what the fuck is going on. Like, what did you guys do?

Like, what did you do to the world? What did you do to the country? Yeah. So are they looking for more? More money? Well, they're not just looking for more money. They're now talking about criminal prosecution. I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, it's

like you would like people to be held responsible for it, but unfortunately, they have so much money they can pay the lawmakers. They can pay the Congress. They can do anything. It's very weird. It's very weird that they allow them to. I mean, it's evil. It's really evil. They ruined

the lives of untold millions of people. I don't know if I could ever do something like that. Of course you couldn't. Of course you couldn't. Come up with something that I know people are going to get addicted to and lie to them. One of those things where you become accustomed to it because everyone like you is doing it and it becomes part of what you do. I think it's just people adapt to whatever environment they're in. And if your environment is in getting pills to people, that's your job.

Your job is to get pills to people. The pharmaceutical drug reps, they come to you. That's all they're thinking of is how I get my pills to these people. Yeah, that's what your job is. Your job is to do that. Your job is not to help these people. There was one doctor in the series that was like an ethical doctor that kicked the lady out of his clinic. He's like, get the fuck out of here.

You're selling heroin. Wow. It's an interesting scene because that's rare. Because most doctors are rule followers. You got to think, most doctors, they go to college. They get their medical degree. They go to medical school. They do the residency.

Everything is by the book. You got to do what they say to college. They get their medical degree. They go to medical school. They do the residency. Everything is by the book. You've got to do what they say to do. And then you're working for a hospital, which this is how naive I was. I didn't even know that most hospitals are privately owned. I didn't know that there were for-profit businesses that try to push medicine on people. I thought they're just here to help you. Wouldn't that be the best thing? If hospitals were just places where the doctors get paid well because they're just here to help you. Like, wouldn't that be the best thing? Like if hospitals were just places where the doctors get paid well, because they're really

good at their job, but what they're trying to do is make you better. No, those hospitals are trying to make as much money as possible. They want to keep you in as much as possible, prescribe as much medication as possible. You know what? I'll give you an example of that. It's not really drug related, but I went to a hospital, I had pneumonia. And they accidentally gave me the hospital bill of everything that they used on me. And all my, like, if I had, like, ginger ale, diet ginger ale, it was a little six-ounce, those little ones. I had, like, 20 of them while I was there. They were charging $12 for each one of those.

They had on the bill like the linen, what the linen costs and this and that. Linen was $200, just the bed sheets. Like I saw all this stuff on this bill. The bill ended up being for five days, it was $165,000. Wow. How could you spend $165,000 just laying in a hospital bed? You know, they're serving you three meals a day. Drinking ginger ale.

Yeah. I mean, $167,000. It's ridiculous. It's business. Yeah, that's what's crazy about business, right? Businesses, people just want to make the most money possible. It's crazy. It's fucking crazy when it's involving pills and people's health.

Yeah. God. So how many years have you been clean now? 12. 12 years. That's awesome. Congratulations. Yeah.

That must be very nice. Yeah, it's nice. You know, I don't have a lot of, thank God, I don't have a lot of triggers anymore. I used to when I had, because I was going through a lot of pain. And I had my knees replaced. I had my back surgery, so I'm actually on the mend now. When did you have your knees replaced? I had the shoulder replaced, too.

I had them replaced a year ago. How'd that go? Really good, really good. I was literally, the doctor, my doctor's really progressive. Like, he got me out of bed the The day of surgery had me walking around. It was ridiculous. Did you do one at a time or both at the same time? Both at the same time.

Oh, my God. So you're walking around with two new knees? I left the hospital without using anything. I walked out of the hospital the next day. Yeah, and he wanted me to walk up the steps and down the steps. Wow. It was crazy. I mean, it didn't take me long to recover, though, probably four or five months.

It usually takes a year, but I did it in probably four or five months. Wow. Yeah. Wow. With no painkillers? No painkillers. Do you take CBD or anything like that? I tried CBD.

It doesn't really work on me. I think the volume of pain you're dealing with is probably outside of CBD's pay scale. Is there a way to OD on CBD? No, I don't believe so. It might be. I mean, it might be bad for you as I look at a kill cliff with CBD in it. This is 25 milligrams. This is nothing.

Yeah, CBD is like for people that have like mild arthritis and general discomfort and inflammation. It's not for what you were dealing with. Right. Shoulder replacements, knee replacements, disc replacements. I have to have – I can't wait to get my neck done. I mean I need that number of that doctor, man. That's all I'm thinking about right now, Joe. Yeah, well, as soon as we get out of here, I'll contact Al, Joe, and try to get that hooked up and find out because his is amazing.

I mean, the fact that he was able to get that surgery, I believe Chris Weidman got the same surgery. I don't know if it's from the same doctor, but several guys in the UFC have gotten that surgery. You know what? John Cena had it too. Oh, yeah? I believe, but his was a rubber disc.

Interesting. Yeah. How long ago was this? Probably seven or eight years ago. Yeah. He had neck surgery. I believe he had a rubber disc put in his neck. And I'm not so sure that's going to last as long as the other one, the doctor that does yours.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the scary things. They'll tell you, like, we'll replace something, whether it's a hip or whatever. But in 20 years, you're going to need a new one. I know. I know. They told me to take care of your knees because they won't last forever.

What did they give you, like a timeline? 15, 20. But I told them, can I run on them? They said no, but I run on them. Jesus, Kurt. You do a lot of cardio to make up for all the stuff that you can't do? I do. I run.

I only run two miles two or three days a week because of my knees. I don't want to overdo it because I know they'll probably go to shit in a year or two if I abuse them too much. So I do very little. I run a couple miles three days a week. Not a lot. You know, as bad as the pharmaceutical drug companies are in pushing painkillers, thank God

the medical, like the technological side of it, of the medical community is developing these incredible replacements. That's crazy, huh? Getting new knees, new shoulders, yeah. Like Matt Serra, who's UFC welterweight champion, he just got his knee replaced. He's back to jiu-jitsu, training again hard.

He's going to get his other one done. I mean, it's kind of incredible. Now, will he compete again? No, he's not competing anymore. Yeah. But he's 50, you know, close to it at least. You know, what he's doing is just training and doing normal stuff. At least he can do what he was doing before.

Yeah. At least he can do what he was doing before. I mean, there's a lot of guys that they do some pretty high-level athletics with knee replacements, which is pretty crazy. Does it hurt? Like, what do the knees feel like? No, but you know what? They kind of, they only bend.

You can't go sideways with them. Oh, really? It's almost like it's done like this. It's like a hinge. So it doesn't twist doesn't twist so yeah you can't really do you can't cut left no no not real well not real well but yeah it's it's kind of like this yeah it's insane because you know like the different we've all the wrestlers that we've had on uh all unbelievable athletes right but the But The Undertaker, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan especially, mostly known for their big characters, the entertainment side of things.

And Kurt's also known for that. But really, Kurt is considered, I mean, Triple H, John Cena, they've all said that he is the best athlete in the history of the sport. So compared to the people that we've had on, you've done more. Like he was throwing people more and landing on his head more and doing longer matches at the peak of it all.

And so it's wild to hear, you know, a lot of them have had replacements and this and that, but it's almost a miracle that that's all that you've had. Yeah. You know what? Especially with everything that I've gone through, it is really brutal. I probably, I did, I wrestled pro wrestling, I think it was 19 years. And I did amateur for about 22.

Wow. And so, I mean, both of them have affected me. I mean, I'm not going to lie to you. And, you know, I had probably eight knee injuries and four surgeries in college and high school. So mostly meniscus stuff. Yeah, I had I had one was ACL, but most of it was meniscus. I also blew out my PCL, and I never had it replaced. Oh, Jesus. Still like it. Well, now they gave me a knee replacement.

It doesn't really matter. Right. Yeah. But I had my knee. I could shift my leg like three inches back and forth. It was really loose because my PCL wasn't there anymore. That's insane. And you were wrestling with that.

Yeah, yeah. See, everyone wants to complain. 40 hours a week is such a long week. I'm so tired. There's levels. There's levels to what people have to tolerate in this life, what they have to endure. But I guess going through all that, you could probably go through basically anything.

I don't know, man. Bring it on. I've gone through a lot of shit, man. I have. What are you doing these days to keep yourself occupied? Well, I just finished a movie called Thy Will Be Done. It's a really good independent movie. And I have a movie that I'm going to be doing at the beginning of next year with Michael Tadros Jr.

Brandy Couture is going to be in it. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that. So I've been doing some of that stuff. I run a podcast, The Kurt Angle Show. Oh, nice. Yeah.

And I also own a supplement company. I have a company called Physically Fit, and we have a product called Smart Snacks. They're little crispy protein bites. There are a bunch of flavors, 11 different flavors. They're really good, high-protein, low-carbohydrate. They're doing pretty well. Right now, we're going into Walmart.

We're in the quick-fill stores, a bunch of grocery stores, a bunch of convenience stores. They're doing okay. Do you have a website that people can go to to get that? Yeah, physicallyfit.com. Physicallyfit.com. How'd to get that? Yeah, physicallyfit.com. Oh.

Physicallyfit.com. How'd you get that? That's incredible. Yeah. How'd you get that? That's a fucking incredible URL. It is. You know what?

That's what people, when they look, when they want to get in shape, the first thing they type up is, how do I get physically fit? Yeah. And we're the first thing that pops up. It was clever on my co-owner's part to do that. That's very clever. So what are those chicks in, what is that? Chicken snacks. Chicken snacks.

Those are chicken protein. They're made with chicken. The ones whey protein at the top, those are whey protein. And I believe, I think they're whey protein. They might be the organic plant protein. Crispy protein bites. So you sell all kinds of stuff. Yeah, well, we just sell the protein bites.

They're all different. One's chicken, one's plant, one's whey. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, that's a great URL. Okay, so go to physicallyfit.com, folks. Go ahead and get some of that. So that's great that you're doing movies, too.

Randy Couture is probably the best example of a UFC fighter that went from, you know, fighting to, I mean, he was in the expendables. I mean, wrestling and fighting. Fighting and doing movies. Yeah, I mean, he's done a great job. He has. He's done a great job. I know he's been doing, he's what? He's done two and doing movies. Yeah. I mean, he's done a great job. He has. He's done a great job. I know he's been doing – he's what?

He's done two Expendable movies? How many of them are there? Gosh, there's like – The fourth lot. Is there a lot? 11 or 12. There's four of them? I said 11 or 12. It's hilarious.

You're watching these really old guys just kicking the shit out of everybody. I know. I know. I'm one of them now. If they ever pick me to do it, I'm going to be 55. So it's just funny that they're all over 50, over 60. Yeah. Well, Stallone.

Stallone's pushing 80. He looks great. He does look great. He's a canary in the coal mine. Yes, he is. He can keep it going as long as that guy has. He broke his neck on one of those. He did. I heard about that on one of those. He did.

I heard about that. Yeah, yeah. He got fusion and everything. Yeah. He was doing a stunt because he was doing his own stunts, and he got thrown into a wall or something. Snapped his neck. I guess he was getting a little too old, and he stuck with it a little bit too long.

Well, he's hardcore. Imagine wanting to do your own stunts when you're 70. Like, yo, throw me through the wall. Let's go. It's like a fucking psycho. I'm a big Stallone fan. I love the guy. How can you not be?

Yeah. I mean, the guy can act, too. That's what's crazy about Stallone. That movie Copland, you ever see that movie Copland? Good movie. Very good movie, man. It was like one of his first movies where, you know, he gained weight. He actually got fat for that movie on purpose, like just to show like it's not just all about

God. He probably gained 40 or 50 pounds. Yeah. And had a tremendous performance like as an actor, just as an actor. And he's always used to dieting down in his movies. Looking ripped, taking his shirt off. He's done a lot of those movies too, obviously. But, you know, that was a very impressive movie.

The fact that he – I mean, it's got to be hard for a guy like that too. Your whole career, you're looking great, shredded, rocky. Oh, yeah. And then I'm sure it set him into a little bit of a depression, to be honest with you. Probably. Probably. But then he probably also enjoyed the accolades from the movie because a lot of people really respected him after that. For a lot of those action guys, that's the thing they don't get respect for is their actual acting ability.

The agility is incredible. I watched this Gary Oldman. I don't know if I told you about this. I found this. is incredible. I watched this Gary Oldman. I don't know if I told you about this. I found this Gary Oldman, like, there's like a nine-minute video on YouTube of him and all of

his different characters that he's done and you can't even tell it's him. 80% of them. The guy is such a freak. Remember True Romance? Oh, God. And that's just one of them. Just one of them. How about Dracula? Yeah, he was really good.

He's fucking incredible. Unbelievable. And he played old Dracula and young Dracula in the same movie. Yeah. He's so versatile. Yeah. I think he's kind of, is he retired from acting? He might be one of those guys like, I don't fucking know.

There's a lot of those guys that just get so tired of being other people. Like, who am I? Right. Yeah, man. I mean, but his character, he really went way out there. Way out there. No two are anywhere near the same. This thing that you're watching, because it just switches every 20 or 30 seconds to a different thing.

Yeah. And nothing, you know, so many people get kind of typecasted, like Christoph Waltz from Inglourious Bastards. That character that he played was so cool that it almost seems like in every movie they're trying to get him to do that again. All right, you're going to be a villain in this. You're going to be smooth talking and over-enunciating. You know, they try to like get it again. And it's so interesting, the guys that like test themselves

and push themselves like that. It's got to be hard when your whole identity is wrapped up in pro wrestling to just stop how difficult was it for you to just stop wrestling it was hard i mean when you leave you get depressed um you miss the action you miss the fans responses um it's it i i understand why a lot of wrestlers have fell into depression, that start taking drugs, ended their lives a lot quicker than other professions, but it is. It's a very addictive form of entertainment.

I mean, once you're in it, you love it, and you never want to leave it. And the problem is everybody gets to an age where they can't do it anymore. So you have to come to grips with it. If you don't, you're probably not going to survive much longer. Well, look at Ric Flair. You know what? He's living the dream. He's still Ric Flair every day.

He's just not wrestling in the ring day he's just not wrestling in the ring he's just doing it in the streets everywhere you know he's like unbelievable how you were partying with him the other day dude so so he's in town and uh he hits me up on a sunday at like noon he's like let's let's hit the streets tonight show me the city let's uh have some drinks and pick up some babes i'm like okay he goes i'm done with this comic book signing at 5 p.m i'm like sweet i'll meet you at five about a half hour later he goes i'm gonna be done with the comic book signing at 1 30. that's rick so i go i go shafted the fence three and a half hours i go oh man i go okay i'll meet you where do you want me to meet you he's like at this hotel bar i go to this hotel i i say i find the first

like security guy i know i go where's the bar and he points like that it was just right over his shoulder and i just see that white flanking hair And there are on each side of them three and three just flight attendants, fucking nurses. I mean, just a gaggle of geese. And I'm walking up and I'm like, this is like what you what I've heard about forever. I'm like walking up to like a music video or the story or the cartoon of rick flair and sure enough he introduced this these ladies work at southwest airlines this one's a this this is that and we he goes let's hit the streets i'll get us a car and uh he gets a car he gives the guy a stack of hundreds he goes you're gonna be our driver for the day. This random Uber driver's like, okay.

He's like, you're going to be our driver. Oh, it's unbelievable. And he is just the man. I mean, he was already pounding vodka cranberries. He's like, what do you want to drink? I'm like, I'll have what he's having. I haven't had a vodka cranberry since I was like 17 years old. And I swear to God, we went all day.

We went from 1.30 to, he didn't leave me until like 8 p.m. He like knew his limit. He's like, I'm going to get back. He didn't seem drunk at all. He must have had 17 vodka cranberries. I think it's because he's drunk all the time. That's what I think. And he's so nice to everybody.

There's a part of me when you're, you know, I've been around so many big people for so long where I'm like kind of, if they're with me, I'm like kind of protective. Like, come on, give them some air, this and that. But he was just embracing everybody. He's so cool. So nice.

And everyone gravitates towards him. He loves the conversation. Waka Flock of Flame. Rappers. Who talk to anybody. Yeah. so nice and everyone's everyone gravitates towards him walk a walk a flame yeah rappers or like anybody yeah yeah walk a walk a flame one of the good great rappers that shows up he goes yeah rick i heard you were here what's up let's hang out like people find out where he is and gravitate towards them it is it's everything you hear about it's like being inside of a story it's hard to describe he's a lot of fun he is a living legend Flair he's a real living legend yeah yeah he lives a gimmick 24 7 yeah and he says he's making more money now he is cannabis company ever made in pro wrestling you know what he told me

when he was in WCW he was only only making 600 a year, 600 grand a year. Wow. And it's because when WCW bought out Crockett, the promotion down in the south, when they bought it out, they bought out Rick's contract. His contract was 600 grand. So the WCW kept it at that for the rest of Rick's career. Wow. Which was bullshit rick should

have been getting paid four or five times that so you know he always had money but he was running out because he wasn't making as much as people thought he was right and he was living that life he lives a life he does whatever came in yeah yeah well he and a lot of these guys, they did the small circuit, and then they came up, and then they eventually got to the WWE or the WWF back then. You went from the Olympics right into the big time. Yeah. Did you do any small shows to prepare? Okay.

The crazy thing was I didn't even watch pro wrestling. Wow. So I was relatively new. When I called the WWE in 1998, they offered me a contract in 1996, right after the Olympics. I went out and met with Vince, and he gave me a multimillion-dollar deal and threw it on the desk, and he said, hey, 10-year deal. Let's do it.

I said, can I go year deal, let's do it. I said, can I go home and think about it? So I went home and went to my agent and he grabbed the contract, he threw it in the trash. He was a former amateur wrestler, also an NFL football player, former NFL player, his name's Ralph Sindrich. So he said, you're not gonna do that crap, you're the real deal. I'll get you a better job.

So he gets me a job as a sportscaster in Pittsburgh for Fox. And it was the worst experience of my life. I mean, I was really bad. And the thing is, it was a startup station, so I didn't get to rehearse. So the first night on the air, here I am. I'm anchoring the sports, and my teleprompter goes out. And my scripts, when i went into the studio i ran to the producer and they all went up in the air and fell out of order so when i put them down

they were out of order so i'm looking at teleprompter the producer says just look at the teleprompter don't look at anything else just read it and i go to read it and it goes black it goes out and i'm just sitting there for like a minute. And the producer says, Kurt, say something. Say anything. So I remembered like the first story was Duquesne basketball. They played tonight. Let's go to the highlights because I didn't know what else to say. And so the next sport, I had to guess what it was.

And I guessed it was baseball and it was actually football. So the whole segment turned out to be a disaster. That was my first night on the air. And it didn't get any better. So anyway, I spent a year there. So at the end of 1997, I started watching WWE and I fell in love

with a character named Stone Cold Steve Austin. He was just kicking ass. I mean, he was flipping off his boss. I thought he was the coolest thing in I mean, he was, you know, he's flipping off his boss. I thought he was the coolest thing in the world. And so I decided to call the WLB in early 1998, and I said, does that contract still stand from 1996? They said, no, but you can come up and try out.

So I went up and tried out. After the first day, I picked up on it pretty quickly, so they gave me a contract, and I trained for about seven months. And they literally, they had me training. The first three months was a week a month where I just went up to WWE. I went into their studio and I would train with a couple of wrestlers. And so I'd only do that one week a month for three months. Then the following four months they sent me to Memphis to a smaller

territory down in Memphis. And I worked there for four months where I did one TV a week for four months. And then Vince brought me up on the TV. I was only work training for seven months. I wasn't ready to be on TV. And he wanted me to go on TV at that point in time. So I was like, Vince, you want me to cut a promo tonight? I don't even know how to cut a promo. I didn't learn that down in Memphis. I did one or two promos in Memphis, and they were horrible. And now Vince wants me to cut a promo for five minutes.

And he's going to tell me it. He's not even going to write it down. He's going to tell me what it is, and he wants me to go out there and do it. I'm like, holy shit, there's no way. So I said, okay, go tell me the promo. So he starts talking, and the whole time I'm just thinking, this is fucking long. This is really fucking long. I'm not going to remember

any of this. So when he gets done, I said, Vince, I'm sorry, but I didn't hear a word you said. You're going to have to repeat it again. He said, I'm going to tell you one more time, and you've got to go out there and do it. You either sink or swim. Wow. So I went out, and I did it about 80% right,

and he was like, I think I have somebody here. I think there's a guy I can work with. So I was learning on the job, and I was getting better and better every week. And Vince continued to push me. I mean, within three months, I was at the main event level. It was like whoa like what's going on here why am i getting you know why am i getting you know pushed so hard

and he just wanted to create another star and he thought i had the ability to do it and uh i was able to follow up on it i i did all the promos the right way did all the pre-tapes my matches were great um did you get like a coach and how to do the promos like how'd you learn no no i learned on the job oh they were giving me pros i had a great writer that wrote for me and i had a lot of funny shit i did in wwe yeah you did was a lot of that you and you and your writer laughing with each other like does this come from writing it for me so like the milk yeah that's him that was my, Brian Gortz. He sprayed people with milk. I did a lot of stuff. I did a battle rap with John Cena.

I did, what else did I do? I did the sexy cut when I imitated Shawn Michaels. I'll give you something that I did, for example. I was such an idiot. I always fucked up. There was one night where I was supposed to wrestle Rey Mysterio. I was like, Rey Mysterio, you're a boy

in a man's world, and I'm a man who loves to play with boys. And I'd go, no, no, that's not what I meant to say. And then I would say something else, and that would fuck me up too. I'd be like, no, not that either. So fans got to make fun of me and laugh with me. It was a really cool relationship I had with them.

I was the bad guy, but they kind of loved me. At one point in time, Tony was going to get hired by the WWE, but he didn't want to move to Connecticut. He was going to be one of the writers. Like, tell that story, because it's kind of a crazy story. We almost lost you. You have to move there. You have to. Yeah. Like, tell that story, because it's kind of a crazy story. We almost lost you. You have to move there. You have to.

Yeah, you have to move there. Now, some of them don't live there anymore, but they have to go up there, like, right after TV and stay up there for the whole week. Right. And they only go home for one day. Yeah. In Connecticut, which is absolute hell. And expensive as shit.

Middle of nowhere. And, yeah, somehow i can't even remember it was so long ago but i got this meeting with them somebody wanted to talk with me they heard that i was a pro wrestling fan and i just destroyed at this meeting and i gave them a bunch of crazy ideas that i just had in the back of my head forever stuff for the undertaker to do stuff for this stuff for that and uh i killed it at this meeting, and they offered me a full-time job. But at the time, I was already three, four, five years in a stand-up comedy and working at the store.

I devoted everything to stand-up comedy. So there's no way I could go backwards, especially for a job with a boss and bosses and word on the street. Patrice O'Neill, a great comedian, took the job. And famously, anybody who takes the job, they're like, it's hell, it's fun. I didn't know Patrice took that job. Oh, he was doing it.

Really? Oh, yeah. He went to Connecticut the whole deal? Well, they pay you so good. It's like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars because they make so much money and the writers are so important because they're putting out so much content.

Two, three shows a week, pay-per-views, all of these big, long, drawn-out storylines like week after week. Yeah, they write six months ahead of time. And they rewrite the day of. So it's a nightmare. Vince will go, I hate it. Change everything. The day of, famously. An hour before. And as a real fan. It day of, famously. An hour before.

And as a real fan. It's happened many times. Yeah. Yeah. And you hear these things and it's like, God. You know, it would have been cool if it would have been cool. What I mean by that is like if I could do it during the day and then take a train to New York City and do stand up, that would have been fine. But it's not that kind of job.

It's we need you in the office right now. Where are you? That type of thing. So you could have had a gig. You would have had to cancel your gig. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh.

But, yeah. Stephanie McMahon fired him six times. Yeah. According to this article I'm reading about it right now. That's what they do. They fire you. Who got fired six times? Patrice because he had stand-up gays conflicting with his WWE stuff.

And they hired him back. Yeah. It says Stephanie incredulously fired him six times. Yeah. That's hilarious. stand-up gays conflicting with this with this wwe stuff and said they hired him back yeah it says stephanie incredulously fired him six times yeah that's hilarious i had no idea patrice did that i never heard that story yeah i can't believe i haven't mentioned it i can't believe i didn't know yeah no i mean that's a it was it the money especially then i mean i was so broke it was crazy for me to turn down the job I mean I was fucking starving this is like right before I start writing on the roasts and and on television right before and I'm

not headlining yet couldn't sell a ticket to my name just some comedy store door guy so like I should have on paper I am a moron for not taking the job but it was a huge gamble that thank god paid off yeah well you believed in yourself but yeah i mean it also would have been fun it'd be fun to like have a clone of me and live that life for a bit because i think i would have done some really crazy stuff i think i would have worked my way up really fast and probably been oh you would have been a mastermind at that stuff because you're such a fan. Yeah. And you're so good at writing shit for other people too. Yeah. You know, Brian Gewirtz, that's what he was.

He was a huge fan. I don't know if you know who Brian is. Huh. Well, he's the one that he wrote for The Rock, for me, for Chris Jericho, Edge and Christian. He would write for guys he had a certain chemistry with. Right. And he actually wrote a book this past year. And he's had a lot of success.

Actually, you know who hired him? Stole him from WWE. The Rock. The Rock, he works for his production company now. Oh, nice. Yeah, Seven Bucks Productions. That's where Brian is now. And that's what you were part of.

This guy was part of peak entertainment. You look at cena the rock kurt angle these this was all every monday every sunday every thursday every friday that was i mean everybody's a star they stayed stars hogan's movie career while you know he was in some stuff it was always like you know kind of low budget. Tonight on the USA Network, a Hulk Hogan movie. Whereas, you know, The Rock is fucking, what is he? He's number one, right? Yes, yes.

And Cena and Batista are kicking ass. Yeah, Batista, exactly. And this is all his class. These are his people. Batista's doing some real movies. He is. He's challenging himself. That Glass Onion movie?

Yeah. That's a great movie yeah he was great in that yeah he's he's talented very talented it's crazy man he he was like uh i guess he was a doorman for a bar and and dc and you know he he was always big jacked up dude and someone came up to him and said hey you should be a pro wrestler look at him jacked up dude and someone came up to him and said hey you should be a pro wrestler worked out yeah it worked out he's doing uh he's doing all these movies and uh just uh having a lot of success and he seems to be okay physically like he's gotten through it physically i'm really surprised at how well he moves around considering his age and you know yeah what he's been able to go through but it's crazy i mean he actually

he actually is like uh working out like he's 30 years old that's crazy yeah and he's probably what 55 57 probably and he looks great it's just amazing that he's been able to do it without any of the real big injuries yeah you're absolutely because he wrestled for a long time, right? How long did he wrestle for? 20 years. Wow. That's incredible. That's really incredible. Do you need a lighter? Thank you.

What is it like working for Vince? That guy's got to be fucking, I mean, we need to get him in here. Yeah. You know what? That's a good idea. I would love to get him in here, especially now that he's got this relationship with the UFC, now that they're, is that thing working?

Nope. Yeah, it's – You know what? Vince is very, very talented. He's a workaholic, though. Very, very, very much a workaholic. Oh, clearly. Yeah.

He works seven days a week. Even when he's on vacation, he makes his writers go down to the vacation with him. Really? So they're either sitting in a hotel room or on the beach talking about work. Wow. He's working 24-7. And he's in his 70s. Yeah, yeah.

And you know what's crazy? When he's done, he goes to work out when he gets home, which like when he's on the road traveling, TVs are over at midnight. He'll go to the gym at 1 o'clock, train until 3. He'll go to sleep from 4 to 6. Then he'll wake up and he just repeats the cycle. How?

He only sleeps two hours a day. I don't know. It's real. How? He's the real deal. He's a workaholic, man. two hours a day. I don't know. It's real. How? He's the real deal. He's a workaholic, man. He's a machine. And he's created an entire universe that people,

generations and generations, grandfathers, their sons, and their sons all have their favorite people and favorite things that have happened. I love the guy. I love the guy. He's always treated me right. I never had a problem with Vince. I'm just glad he got the money he got because I never thought he was going to sell the company.

I thought you would have to take it from his cold dead hands, pry it from his cold dead hands when he died. I really thought he was going to keep the company forever. Yeah, I saw the meme the other day. He bought it. I can't remember the exact numbers, but for $1 million in whatever, 1982, from his father, he bought it. $1 million, yeah, to $9 billion. Yep, $9 billion at the valuation last week. Wow.

$1 million to $9 billion. Wow. Yeah. He put his heart and soul into it, though, man. Oh, obviously. It just goes to show you, nobody becomes that successful unless they're fucking driven. Insane work ethic. There's no other way. There's no other way. You're absolutely right.

That's crazy. No one works hard, and he does. Two hours sleep in your 70s? Yeah. I know. I mean. I need eight now. I need eight. I just don't. I don't get 8 now I need 8

I just don't get it I mean it's incredible I don't know how you can function like that He works out continuously He's fucking jacked He's jacked and he's in his 70s Yeah he actually He might be

He's gotta be closer to 80 Let me see a picture of him now That's fucking bananas. That's the real canary in the coal mine. Yes, he is. He just turned 78. 78! Yeah, yeah.

78 jacks. Okay, you know what he told me when I came back to WWE? He said, listen, I'm going to have this company for a lot longer than you think, Mr. Angle. I'm 73 right now. My mom lived to be 101. I plan on living to, I'm 120. He said, so. He has a plan.

And he said, I'm never letting the company go. I'm always going to be working here. And they're going to have to pull it from my cold, dead hands. My pride from my cold, dead hands. He really, Vince, that's what keeps him going. This is why I'm a little, not nervous,

but what's he going to do now? What's he going to do now? Because his whole life was wrestling, wrestling, wrestling. Isn't he still involved in the company, though? Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's still going to be there. Okay, I heard he stepped back from the creative position. Kind of, but that's what he says, though? Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's still going to be there. Okay, I heard he stepped back from the creative position.

Kind of, but that's what he says, right? Okay, okay. You've got to wonder with him how much of it is a storyline. I'm back! Right. God damn it. If I want it done right, I have to do it myself. Yeah, just see him fucking walking in there.

The power walk. Yeah, I mean, he's just a fucking maniac. I mean, the head of creative on paper is Triple H, who is his son-in-law, who, I mean, that's the most dominant. I mean, that's his former employee. He's got Triple H. No, no. I guess if Triple H is head of creative, then Vince is. Look at him. The head of creative.

Look at that picture of him in his 70s. That's his personal trainer that travels with him everywhere. At 3 a.m. Yep. Worked out at 3 a.m. Wow. 3 a.m. After Raw.

Wow. And seeing 3 a.m. workouts despite being 76. Oh, I wasn't wrong. It was 3 a.m. Yes, that was only two years ago. So there he's 76 there with a fucking big motorcycle chain around his neck. He's jacked. Yes, man.

That guy is something special. That's incredible. It's just incredible that you can keep doing that. But I guess if you don't stop, you know, you eat the right foods, take the right supplements, wink, wink, and just keep going. Make some trips to Mexico. Keep that fucking trainer rolling. Like the fucking Aerosmith song.

Train kept on rolling all night long. Look at him there. Squatting almost 1,000 pounds. 1,000 pounds? Belt squat 1,000 pounds at 76. I mean, that's fucking bonkers. That's bonkers. Good for him. Fuck yeah.

There's very few humans like that out there. There's only one Vince. I can tell you that. There's only one Vince. Yeah. I've seen him at his best and his worst, and that guy, he's unbelievable. I mean, he is the hardest working and most dedicated person I've ever been around. Like, he really is.

He sticks to his diet. He works all day. He makes sure he gets his workout in. Everything is like a line for him. Everything has to go a certain way for Vince. He has to have everything lined up just perfectly, you know. He's just a—he's an animal. He really is. He's an animal he really is he's an animal clearly

yeah i mean that's what he looks like you don't look like that when you're 76 unless you're a complete psycho yeah and again the creativity like it never ends he puts out two three hours of content every monday for 30 what is it 35 years now or something? 30-something years, yeah. Here's something to think about. 30 years. He's two years younger than Biden. Wow. Wow. Wow, man, that's a big difference. Jeez, please. With everything, not just his body, but the mental sharpness.

The mental sharpness. I mean, that's just incredible. He's still sharp as a rock. I mean, he really is. Crazy. Yeah. I don't know if rocks are sharp still sharp as a rock. I mean, he really is. Crazy. Yeah. I don't know if rocks are sharp. A jaded rock.

Like a flintstone that they used to cut mammoth meat with. Diamond, perhaps. Yeah, something sharp. Are diamonds really that sharp? I guess they can be. Diamond drills. Diamond drill bits. Yeah, well, they're just hard, really. But yeah, I know what you're saying.

It's just extraordinary when you see someone who's such an outlier. I mean, if you've got all the 78-year-old guys on earth, that's number one. Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. If you had to ask me, who's the fittest, most driven, on top of it, 78-year-old guy? Vince McMahon. 100%.

Who's competing with him? Who the fuck else? Who's out there? You would have heard of him. If there's another guy like that out there, you would have heard of him. No, you're right. There's only one Vince. I know that for sure.

Yeah. What a maniac. Yeah. And with this new union, man, I mean, this is something that I've been talking about for a while, is like the power of and how close the UFC and the WWE can be. But, yeah, it's mostly going to be, I picture it being a transfer, almost like a retirement party to go to the WWE. I mean, imagine what Diaz Brothers or something like that could do in pro wrestling, slapping people around.

Yeah, these guys. But, you know, I just don't see, well, I guess there are guys. I'm just wondering if, I know that Dana and Vince, their contracts have specifically that you can't go to WWE. Or WWE, you can't go to UFC. They're going against each other when they shouldn't be. They should be worried about AEW. WWE should be worried about them and not the UFC. This merger, that's a part of the contract?

Or Bellator. No, before the merger. I don't know what's going on now. But in their contracts, you couldn't cross over to UFC. Interesting. UFC couldn't cross over to WWE. Interesting. That's what's crazy.

One's MMA and one's pro wrestling, you know? Yeah, I think Derrick Lewis. Oh, yeah. Derrick Lewis. Oh, yeah. He's the number one heavyweight that I would say could transfer over to WWE and be a fucking huge star. Oh, yeah. He's so funny.

He's entertaining. Oh, my God. He's entertaining. And he's legit. Yeah. You know, everybody would know. He's the most heavyweight knockouts in the history of the sport. And he's funny.

Yep. He's funny. He's giant. Funny is a big part of it, man. It's a big part of it. I'll tell you what. I think Conor McGregor could have done really well in it, too. He's funny. He's giant. Funny is a big part of it, man. It's a big part of it. I'll tell you what. I think Conor McGregor could have done really well in it, too. He might still.

But he's got so much money. It'll be hard. When a guy's got a half a billion in the bank. I know. Very hard to get a guy like that to fucking get slammed. You're not getting him out of bed. Yeah. I mean, that's what's really impressive about some of these guys that go over and do things in the WWE.

Like Floyd Mayweather went over there and the Paul brothers. These guys are willing. They're making money hand over fist and they're going over there. Yeah, they're still willing to get out there and put it all on the line. Well, the thing for the Pauls and – or for Logan Paul and for – It's really just Logan, right? Does Jake done WWE? Bad Bunny?

You're going to say that? Well, yeah, but they can promote their own things as well. So Logan Paul goes out there drinking a Prime energy drink. So a Connor could conceivably go out there with a bottle of – Yeah, a proper 12. Yeah. I think he sold that too, though. Oh, okay.

But, I mean, he's probably still a part of the company, probably in stock or something. He sold it. I think so. I'm pretty sure. See if you can find that. I think he got paid. I think he got fucking paid. It's everywhere.

I see it everywhere. They got it in there. I've never even tried it. Have you tried it? I don't think so. How much did Conor McGregor sell? Proper number 12. 600 million. 600 million. Cha-ching!

Made 100 million dollars from the Mayweather fight and just started rolling. Wow. It's worth a half a billion dollars. And he's, you know, 35. Yeah. Is that it? That's it. Yeah. I mean, if it wasn't for his leg snap, he's still in the prime of his career.

But that leg snap's a real problem. That's a real problem. He's not coming back from that, huh? I don't know. I mean, if he does, he'll be the first. And if anybody does, maybe he can do it. If anybody can do it, maybe it's him. Because he snapped his leg in the prime of his career.

Anderson was a little older, I believe. He was 36 or 37 when he snapped his leg. Chris Weidman was a little older. It's a hard one to come back from. Nobody really comes back from that one. Is it because you have to have metal put in there? You do. You have to have plates, and then it's also you've got to think the difference is you're kicking,

and you're taking kicks. Like guys are going to kick you in that shin for sure. They're going to kick you in your calf. Scar tissue and everything, yeah. Nerve damage, all of the above. And you've got to think when that leg snaps, it snaps like that, right? And then you've got all that broken bone that's damaging all that tissue inside of it. And I don't know the extent of, know how much damage was done but it's been

two years right it's about two years now since he last competed i believe it's about two years and you know there's all this talk about him and michael chandler fighting from the ultimate find i know he's sparring i've seen footage of him sparring and he looks good he looks real good but he also looks saucer. You know, so there's that. So, like, you got to get off that. And then there's a six-month period where USADA has to test him randomly, which I think is – I think that USADA thinks it's a mistake.

I really think they should do all that in-house. Because USADA does stuff like – well, they don't do it anymore, but they were doing stuff like waking guys up at 6.30 in the morning, like the day of the weigh-ins and testing them. It was fucking insane. Fucking insane. For world title fights. Right.

Fucking insane. I just think that if anybody can do it, it's going to be Conor. If anybody is going to come back from that and fight again, it's going to be Conor. But, you know, it's that famous Marvin Hagler quote. It's, you know, it's hard to get out of bed and run in the cold when you're sleeping in silk sheets. When you're the champ and you're rich as fuck like he is, you don't have to do nothing forever. He's got generational wealth. Oh, yeah. And yet, here we are in a situation where he's still in the prime of his athletic career.

He lost that fight to Dustin Poirier, but it was a great fight up until the moment his leg snaps. And so. Well, you know what? He is a different breed, man. He's a fucking savage. He's a real savage. I hope he comes back.

I mean, it would be an amazing story, and I would love to see someone actually come back from that injury because so far Weidman, you know, came back and not taking anything away from Brad Tavares because Brad Tavares is a fucking beast. He looked great in that fight. He looked so good. But Weidman looked a step behind.

But you've got to think Weidman took two years off as well. It's hard taking two years off and then jumping right in the heap with a top 15 guy. And a guy like Tavares is a real veteran, is real talented, and real driven too, super super disciplined always in great shape always fights well and is a real good striker and he was just chewing Weidman up you know why I'm in just couldn't get off it's a bummer it's a bummer because that fucking injuries man it's like all these other it means so many other injuries

guys can come back from. Soft tissue tears. Yeah. You get them fixed. You come back. That one is, that's a motherfucker, man. I mean, think about it. You break your leg right in half.

Yeah. Frank Mir came back from that. Frank Mir got a motorcycle accident where he got T-boned by a guy who ran a red light and got sent flying. I think they said he flew like 30 feet through the air and snapped his femur, so his upper leg. And it took a long time before Frank was, like, back again and arguably never really reached the same form that he had.

Never recovered, huh? He still beat really good guys, though, after that. He still beat really good guys. Frank was still a real world-class heavyweight after that break. And he might be the only guy now that I think about that's ever come back like that. Right. But everybody, that was, you know, I don't know the extent of that injury. I do know that he had, like, real problems with that leg, though,

and there was a real touch-and-go moment where they didn't know if he was going to make it. Right. I mean, you snap a femur. It's like that's that big bone, and there's some blood flow. It's so thick. You snap that thing. You know how hard it is to snap that? Yeah.

It's just when you got hit by a car. It's a different situation. But it's just that lower leg snap, apparently it's just very difficult for it to fully heal. It's not like an arm. You break your arm. They put a pin in it. You're good to go. I know a lot of guys who broke their forearms,

and they went back, and Paul Felder, a lot of guys, their forearms snap like blocking a kick, and they get back in there, and they're okay. There's a difference. You know, you walk on your legs. Yeah. Big difference. You don't walk on your hands.

Right. Yeah. And, I mean, and that's the argument also for him not being in the USADA pool. Of course. I mean, if anybody shouldn't being in the USADA pool. Of course. I mean, if anybody shouldn't be in the USADA pool, like, yeah, get him out of that. Let him do everything he can to come back, especially in the prime of his athletic career.

And also, there's a real problem where they're stopping guys from taking things like BPC 157. All that stuff does is let you heal. Right, right. It's just letting you heal. You stuff does is let you heal. Right, right. It's like it's just letting you heal. You need things that let you heal. So that's on the ban list. It is now. I think they're trying to bring it back.

You ever use that? No. I use it. It's great. It's fantastic. It's very good. Yeah. Very good when you get injured.

You'd probably love it. I need to hear more about this. They call it the Wolverine drug? Is that what it's called? Yeah, it's a peptide, essentially. It's called Body Protection Peptide 157. Body Protection Peptide Comptown. It's a really good peptide for healing injuries.

A lot of people have very good success with it. So a lot of people recover from injuries. Yeah, I can connect you with someone who can take care of that for you, too. You know, I don't know. I think athletes should be able to use everything they can, especially in a sport like MMA. I agree. Everything they can. But, you know, the problem was it used to be they used to be able to do testosterone.

Well, I think they should still. I do too. I think it's a good – well, the thing is, like, with testosterone, you can take a guy who's an older athlete, who has, like, an older mind, who thinks like, you know, a veteran. Like, they really understand the game. Because a lot of those guys, when they're, by the time they get to that certain age, they think real well.

They understand the game better. They're more mature. But their body just doesn't work the same anymore. They're a step behind. They don't have testosterone in their bodies anymore. Yeah. Exactly. And also, especially

fighting. With fighting, with football, with a lot of things, those knocks to the head. There's a guy named Dr. Mark Gordon who's a friend of mine who specializes in traumatic brain injuries. And he says one of the real problems is you get damage to your pituitary gland. So the damage to the pituitary gland from getting

knocked in the head a bunch of times is your body's just not producing testosterone anymore or other hormones. Your body's just like very deficient in hormones, which makes those guys depressed too. So they're dealing with all that. They're dealing with depression. They're dealing with fatigue all the time. And it's just like the problem is with fighters, you tell them they can take testosterone. Some of them, they go Vitor'd out.

Oh, yeah. Like when Vitor was in his prime. I still to this day think that the TRT Vitor was one of the greatest fighters of all time. When he was juiced to the tits, he would come out there like a fucking alien and just attack. He was so confident, too, because he was so juicy. He was juiced up. And so skilled. It was a combination of those things. So he's an older athlete. So he had so juicy. He was juiced up. And so skilled. It was a combination of those things.

So he's an older athlete. So he had been fighting. I mean, I was at the first UFC that Vitor fought at in UFC 12. I was actually training at the same gym as him. I was at Carlson Gracie. Carlson Gracie's gym in Hollywood. Vitor was 19 years old when he went over and he fought John Hess in Hawaii. And everybody was like, holy shit, look at this guy.

We knew. All the guys in the gym knew Vitor was the future. And then when he gets older, it's like your body's slowing down. And also, he did a lot of stuff when he was younger too, and that limits your natural production of testosterone. So as soon as they start telling you, you've got to fight on the natch, everything's just slower. You know what?

When you get older, you lose testosterone. Yeah. Now, I'm on a program right now, my wellness doctor, that I'm on the level of testosterone that I was when I was 30 years old. So he only gives me a certain amount. when I was 30 years old. So he only gives me a certain amount. I take a half a cc of testosterone a week to keep my testosterone at the level that it should be.

I'm not going above and beyond and trying to abuse it. Yeah, so I take a half a shot of testosterone a week just to keep my testosterone at the right level. Between 600 and 800, I think is what it is. That's a good level. Yeah. I do the same. Yeah.

Yeah. And that allows you to function. Your body functions like a young man. Like, I'm 56 years old. I don't have any problems in terms of, like, my body working well. Yeah, me neither. I mean, except for my injuries. Yeah, except for your injuries.

But other than that, it keeps your energy level. It also helps your immune system. A lot of people have it in their head that it's cheating, right? They think about Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa and all that shit and getting busted. They think it's got a negative connotation in a lot of people's minds that testosterone replacement is, oh, you're doing steroids. You're cheating. But if you're intelligent about it and if you do it with a good doctor and you get your blood work done and you don't abuse it, it's very good for you. It is.

It is. And that's why I do it. Yeah. Me as well. And I condone anybody out there that's in their 40s or 50s that doesn't have a lot of energy and is wondering what's going on. Go get tested. It would be good if they did it with with fighters if like the ufc administered it like you can't administer it on your own they have to randomly test you to make

sure you're not fucking off and doing something crazy but like this is the amount you get let's make sure that your blood work stays within this very normal parameter right so you're not cheating you're just maintaining exactly that would be a good call. But it's just hard to regulate, especially you've got guys who are, you know, they're in Russia, they're in Thailand. You know, you're going to send people over there to test them. You see them over in Thailand. They're looking like a fucking dog, like a human pit bull. But the thing is, if you're on that stuff like that my god you could train

fucking three times a day yeah you mean you really if you really go crazy with the test like you know alistair over him in his prime you know you like that guy he's my favorite example alistair over him when he fought brock jesus christ oh my god jesus christ he was so juicy but he was so good too he He's so skilled. It wasn't just a guy on juice. It's a guy on juice who was a K1 Grand Prix champion who was also won the Abu Dhabi. Have you seen him now? Alistair now is a vegan. He lost 60 pounds of muscle? Oh, shit. Yeah. He looks like fucking Kurt Metzger. Oh, my God. It's like...

See, they can find Alistair Overeem now. He's lost so much weight. It's crazy. And he only eats vegetables now. No, no meat. No, no fucking... He's like, meat is bad for you. I'm like, no, it's not.

Who are you talking to? Oh, man. Let me get you some really good scientists that fucking actually understand nutrition. He's talking to some fucking kook in Holland who's got wooden beads around his neck. Look at him now. Oh, my gosh. That's not the same person. He's not the same person.

I mean, I think he's probably natural now. I mean, also maybe, look how funny it is. I think you just kind of get tired of being a fucking assassin. You just want to be a nice guy. You're like, I'm done. I'm tired of being a fucking assassin you just want to be a nice guy like i'm done i'm tired of braining people i mean you know alistair was fucking kicking people in the face and knocking their teeth out for 30 fucking years he was a vicious fighter you gotta think he's still competing up until recently he fought chuck liddell in Pride in like 2004 or something like that. I know, almost 20 years ago.

Yeah. Is this him now? This is 16 weeks ago. It was around his birthday. Well, he looks good there. Yeah, he's just not gigantic. Yeah, he looks lighter. I mean, he's a lot lighter.

Now go to Alistair Overeem weighing in for the Brock Lesnar fight. Because that's crazy. That's him right there. Look at that. Look at that. Look at that. Jesus Christ. Jesus. I'm in awe.

Look at me behind him. I'm like, Jesus. That's Uber Eam. That's when he was at his prime. He was a fucking destroyer. I swear to God, if they never outlawed testosterone, here's what you're smashing people. This is when he was in K-1.

Bro, he was a fucking monster. He was a monster. Because he was huge. He was powerful and fast, but he was also supremely skilled. He was a real elite striker. I'm just surprised anybody could beat him. Well, you know, like he put it on the line. He fought everybody.

He fought Badr Hari. Even Badr Hari was in his prime. Knocked Badr Hari out. And then Badr Hari. Even Badr Hari was in his prime. Knocked Badr Hari out. And then Badr Hari knocked him out in the rematch. Like those guys got knocked out a lot. And that's part of the problem. If you look through Alistair's career, I don't know how many times Chuck knocked him out. I don't know how many times he got knocked out.

Francis Ngannou knocked him into veganism. Bro, he sent him to the Darklands. Oh, we were there for that one. And it's different. You know, sometimes it's different not on TV. Yeah. When you're there and you physically watch somebody's head go backwards. And their soul leave their body.

Oh, my. That's one of the all-time fucking ones. No, I did. Okay, find Francis Ngannou knocks out Alistair Overeem. And by the way, this is Alistair Overeem post-Usada, right? So this is a different Alistair. This is Alistair natural. Gotcha.

And also natural after taking supplements for who knows how long. He was still a big guy, but look how small he is in comparison. And Francis is a natural 265 plus. Francis has to cut weight to make 265. Francis is fucking huge. And also the absolute scariest fucking guy to ever compete in the heavyweight division. Francis fucking scared everybody. He is a badass.

Oh, he's so good. And his fucking knockout power is so ridiculous. He's such a heavy striker. Here it is. Boom. Boom. Now, did he ever fight Jon Jones?

No, he didn't. But he might still. They've left that door open. Francis is actually coming in soon. And I'm going to talk to him about this. Watch this. Look at this left hook. Boom! I mean, insane. His head snaps back to where

he's looking at his heels. Look how far his head snaps back. mean, insane. His head snaps back to where he's looking at his heels. Yeah, look at that. Look how far his head snaps back. Oh, God. You ever been knocked out? Not out cold. I got TKO'd in my last kickboxing fight, but I've never been knocked out like that. I've seen a lot of people.

It's got to be a scary situation when you wake up and come to. There's one where I got knocked out. Is this one right here? Yeah, the table gave too early. My head hit the concrete floor. Oh, God. Oh, God. My hands were behind my back. I was on Loopy Street. Look, I start trying to get up and Hunter's gonna

pull me back down. He wanted me to stay there. He was snoring. Yeah, and so what happened was okay, this has been fast-forwarded, but what happened was I was supposed to pretend to get knocked out. That's why we did the thing on the table. So it was supposed to be a pretend spot so I'd get taken to the back, and then I was supposed to come back to finish the match.

You know what's crazy is that you guys use regular tables. Don't you think you should use a fucking wrestling table? Shouldn't someone design a table that can take the kind of fucking weight that you guys carry? You guys use regular conference tables from Costco. Just rolling in fucking regular tables. Hey, that's wrestling, man. Yeah. They don't spare any expense.

So did you wake up and realize what was happening? All right. I don't remember any of it. What happened was they wheeled me back, and Rock and Triple H were out there still wrestling because it was a triple threat match. I was part of it. And they wheeled me back, and I'm back there, and they're getting ready to do a live shot of me. They're getting ready to do a live shot of me.

They're getting ready to do a live shot of me where I was going to tell them Stephanie was going to say, Kurt, I want you to go out and help Triple H. Do it for me. And I was going to say, alright, I'll do it for you, Steph. So they told me to say it and I forgot. So I said, what am I saying again? And Stephanie

said, just say, I'll do it for you. I said, what am I saying again? Instead he said, just say I'll do it for you. I said, what am I saying again? I did this like eight times. And Vince is in the background. He's like, goddammit, get him some smelling salts and get him out there. So I end up going back out and I don't remember. I don't remember any of it. They carried me through the match and there were spots where I had to duck and

they actually pulled my head down and would hit somebody else when I was supposed to duck. And I wasn't able to do it. So I was out there just being a dead human being. And they're pulling me around. And in pro wrestling, you can still have a match even if one person is incoherent. So the other person carries that person and tells them to do whatever. So they were telling me what to do during that match. But I don't remember anything.

I ended up in the hospital that night, and I came to and said, what happened? They said, oh, God, you don't remember anything? And I said, no, I don't remember anything. They should have probably taken you to the hospital immediately, which is what's crazy about pro wrestling like no no the show must go on well listen that that wouldn't happen now this was in like 2000 yeah it was a different time that's what's crazy is that they really didn't understand head trauma until i mean really that movie concussion when that movie came around, then people started

looking at like what's going on with football players and what's going on with boxers. And they really started looking at it more differently. You know what? I'm wondering if, you know, they're starting to like, like pro wrestling has this, what's it called? Concussion roll. Okay. So if you had concussions, they'll take care of it. So what I'm saying is don't you think UFC, that a lot of their fighters are going to end up with some kind of brain damage? 100%. And that there's going to be some liability that comes out? Well, I don't know if there's going to be some.

I'm just wondering if something like that is going to happen. Because these guys don't use gloves. Right. They got the small ones. Well, not only that, you're getting kicked. Yeah, kicked in the head. Yeah, you're getting kicked, kneed. You're getting slammed in your head.

You see all the damage that's done in boxing. Yes. And, I mean, UFC is, MMA is probably worse. Like, think about when Leon Edwards knocked out Kamaru Usman. Think about that kind of a strike. You're getting head kicked by one of the greatest strikers to ever do a sport. Might as well get hit in the head with a baseball bat. Might as well.

A leg of an athlete like that is just as hard as a wooden bat. You're getting bone, shin bone, right to your neck. Yeah. It's crazy. And who knows you mean they do their best to mitigate some of that in training you know but some guys don't some guys spar real hard in training and it's like it's it's it's part of the sport and they know it coming in and they they now i mean there's no there's no no denying it. You're literally in the brain damage business. Here it goes.

Boom. Oh, geez. And when you know how good Kamaru takes a shot, to see Kamaru go out like that is just nuts. Now, what kind of long-term damage do you think that just occurred to that guy? It's a real good question. And it varies with everyone. There's some guys that got knocked out a bunch of times, and they're fine. And there's a thing called, I it's called apo e4 there's like a gene expression that if you have that you're more susceptible to

cte than than other people and it's it's it's different but it doesn't mean that you're immune to it if you don't have it i mean you're getting kicked and punched and you know head butts guys clash heads all the time it's just it a very, very, very hard sport. And without doubt there's going to be guys who the rest of their lives are dealing with the consequences of that. And we see it. We see it with the older fighters, you know. Some of these guys are just in complete agony.

Like Don Fry. Don the Predator Fry is a legend, like one of the greatest ever. He is a legend, yeah. Don was in here. I mean, he's hurt, man. It's hard for him to walk. It's like everything is in pain. He can't hardly move that good.

You're talking about an old school fighter. That guy was a badass. He's a bad motherfucker. He's a real old school man. He's there at the beginning. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The very, very, very early days.

Mark Coleman, too. Yeah. Look, Mark Coleman's got a celebrity boxing match in October against Montel Griffin. Montel Griffin fought Roy Jones Jr. Is that why Mark's been training? Okay. Yeah. Hammer House for life!

If you watch his Instagram, he's a maniac. You know what? He was one of my opponents to make the Olympics. Was he really? Yeah, him and Mark Kerr. Oh, wow. Yeah, they were badasses. Those two gave me the worst problems in 1993 and 1994.

Really? They're the ones that were beating me. And then I ended up beating them in 95, 96. But I went through, if you saw my documentary, it's about my training and what I did. What I was doing was exhaust training. That's when you train until you're exhausted, and that's when the training actually begins. And it's almost a form of torture.

I learned it from the University of Iowa head wrestling coach, Dan Gable. Dan Gable's a fucking man. He taught us wrestlers this. And it's about staying in someone's face and just keep going at it. Just never back off. Just stay in there and just keep hand fighting and keep attacking. And that's what I was doing. I was staying on my opponents and getting them tired. Once I got tired I was scoring. And so I wasn't the biggest or the fastest or the

strongest or the most technical. But what I knew I could be is the most well conditioned. Here it is. This is Kerr. This is Here it is. This is Mark Kerr. This is Mark Kerr when he was a normal size. Mark Kerr went on to fight in the UFC and went on to fight in Pride. Oh my God. When he was the Smashing Machine. That documentary

is insane. Have you seen that? Yeah, I did. The documentary on Kerr? Mark Kerr submitted Dan Bobish in the UFC. I was there for this fight. He got on top of him, and he stuck his chin in Bobish's eye socket, grabbed the back of his head, and drove his fucking chin into his eye socket. And he has this pointy chin, too, man.

And he was just a giant of a man. He is. Show Mark Kerr in his prime. I mean, his trap started at the top of a man. He is. Show Mark Kerr in his prime. I mean, his trap started at the top of his ears. I know. He was an animal. He was so fucking huge. He got, listen, by the time 96 came around, he didn't look like that anymore.

He was like 250. And he wasn't that big. He wasn't that big. Look at the size of him, bro. He's got to be 300 pounds there. He was a monster. He was a monster. And then he was a monster in pride.

He was such a machine. Yeah. But he's another guy who fell victim to pain pills. Yes, he did. And what's crazy about that documentary, The Smashing Machine, is they caught him in his prime. And what they were documenting in that documentary was a guy who was like this unstoppable force they didn't know that he was at the verge of collapse they didn't know that he was in the middle oh they were just just uh doing the documentary because of how

dominant yes yes the documentary originally was just about this guy who's this unstoppable force who was competing in japan in the competing in Japan in the height of pride. In the height of pride, they were doing this. Like, Japan is so different. When we have the UFC in Japan, they're so knowledgeable and so respectful. It's such a part of the culture that, you know, the matches were huge. They did the Saitama Super Arena. It was 90,000 people.

And that was when Kerr was in his prime. So what they were documenting was this guy from America, this insane wrestler, this gigantic man that they called a smashing machine, going over there and dominating. And they caught him right when it was all falling apart. And that's where the story changed, right? Yes. And that's the documentary. And it is about pain pills. It's about pain medication. I mean, I think he was on a bunch of different

things. But it was just dealing with the constant injuries. He was the most talented individual I've ever stepped on the mat with. I mean, he was really good. Really? Really good. Yeah. Yeah. He won the NCAAs at 190. My senior year, I wanted heavyweight.

And then he moved up to my weight class wow yeah he just kept getting bigger and bigger I mean yeah kid kid's six foot four so he had a lot of range you know long arms and you knew he could fill in I didn't know he's gonna end up being 310 pounds yeah and then back then you know if you were either going to go into pro wrestling or you were going to go into MMA. And back then in MMA, Mark was competing in the early days of bare knuckle. Yeah. Bare knuckle, wearing wrestling shoes, and Coleman as well, with headbutts.

Yeah. That was the other thing back then. Yeah, they were legal. Yeah, headbutts were legal. I wonder if you could still do that eye socket move. I don't even know if that's illegal. I've never seen anybody do that since. See if you can find that.

Mark Kerr submits Dan Bobish. Did he submit him with it? Yes. Oh, he tapped him. Yes. Oh, yeah. He tapped him with a fucking chin to the eye socket. By the way, Bobish was fucking huge too.

Bobish was a giant of a man. So for him to do that to Bobish, but you know, Bobish is just not that level of wrestler. When you get that big, I mean, there's big, and then there's that big, but also talented. And that was Mark Kerr. That big. He had like a head arm and drove his chin in? I want to say he

mounted him. I think he mounted him. So here he is. No, side control. So he got on top of him, shoved his chin in his eye socket, and just fucking drove it in there and tapped him. Oh, my God. I mean, the guy's in fucking agony. Wow.

And you look at the size of Bobish. Bobish is fucking huge, too. He's selling his eye, too. Look at Kerr. Jesus Christ. Oh, he does have a scary chin. Yeah, he just shoved that thing right in his eye socket. Wow.

I don't think anyone's ever done that since. A Leno choke. A Leno choke? It wasn't a choke, man. I lost a lot of sleep over this guy. Look at this. He jumped across to get more freedom of movement. Fulbis, he's tapping out.

That's it. Now we've got a champion in March. Look at that. Early days. I guess he was wearing gloves in this one. But when he started, he definitely was in the no-glove stage. Who started first, Kerr or Coleman? Well, Coleman was the first-ever UFC heavyweight champion.

Okay. Coleman beat Dan Severn, and that was in 1997. That was the first UFC that I worked. Did he tap out with a headlock? That's how strong Coleman was. Yes, he was in 1997. That was the first UFC that I worked. Is that when he made him tap out with a headlock? That's how strong Coleman was. Yes, he was very strong. He got him in like a judo, like a head and arm. So it was a choke, but it was a power choke.

So what he did is he basically got head and arm inside control and got a hold of him. See if you can find that. Dan Sever and Mark Coleman. To me, it looked like a headlock. I know how strong he is. So I was like, I would probably tap out. Yeah, it was a headlock, but it was also like he had him completely trapped in there.

And that's Coleman in his fucking prime. He had a stint with alcohol, too. He's been sober for a while. Yeah, and he talks about that. That's another big thing about his, you that's bare knuckle too you see he's got no gloves on both both guys have no gloves on so he got him down and by the way dan seven was a hell of a wrestler as well i wrestled dan i wrestled dan it was my freshman year in college he was uh about 28 at the time i was 10 years younger than him.

Yeah, there it is right there where you just had it, Jamie. Well, you got it right there. So he gets him in this. So he gets him in this side control head choke. And it's really like a neck crank he got him in. This was the first UFC that I worked at. I never wrestled a guy as strong as Coleman. He was such a, he was so strong. I knew he was going to tap out here. I watched his fight the night it happened. Yeah, look at him.

He's crushing him. I know how strong Coleman is. You can see Dan Severin's arm is almost like green. There's just no blood getting there. Well, this is a legit choke, too. If you can get a guy's arm trapped like that in between your thigh and his hand, and with the amount of weight that Mark had, and he's just pressing down on him. And that pressure.

The more he steps that way, the tighter it gets. Yeah, Dan's fucked. Oh. I remember in Carlson Gracie's after this fight, I'm like, he's poking him in the eyes. God. Yeah. He tapped right there.

That was it. And that was how Coleman became the first ever UFC heavyweight champion. Wow. That was UFC 12. And I had to go and interview him afterwards. He was like, who the fuck are you? Just jacked out of his mind. This is me interviewing him.

Mark, we can get a couple words from you. Congratulations. Unbelievable, impressive performance. Thank you. He's the first guy I ever interviewed. What was it for you to win the first super fight where interviewed Look at the size of him dude It's amazing that he wrestled at 220 pounds I think he was still competing in wrestling at the time too

Or wanted to compete in wrestling Wait a minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa What year was this? 97 This was a year after his last competition was 96 he was 32 at the time so you said you wrestled him when he was 28 and you were uh seven i wrestled and what happened there uh he beat me one nothing it was a college match um i was a freshman in high school i was 18 he was 28 he was already on the USA team. So I'd say I did pretty good for a young upcoming kid. He's 28, but he still has that full mustache probably.

Yeah, yeah, he did. That mustache is amazing. But I wrestled Coleman quite a bit, man. We beat each other quite a few times, but we went at it for a while. But it was really cool to see these guys having success in UFC. I mean, this is when I won the Olympics, and I was kind of bragging rights. I beat these guys to win the UFC title. Well, people talked about that, too, because back then you were brought up a lot, like people were saying,

because there was some talk, like would Kurt Angle ever fight in the UFC? Right. In the early days of the UFC, there was a lot of that because there was quite a few guys that did. Royce Alger. Yeah, Royce tried it out. I know that. Quite a few real elite wrestlers that competed in the UFC. And that skill set is the best skill set for MMA.

When you dictate where the fight takes place, because if that guy wanted to take you down, he's taking you down. Back then, the guys just did not have the the ability there were so many karate guys and so many jiu-jitsu guys they just did not have the ability to stop that guy from taking them down i mean you look at khabib how scary he gets you down he puts his legs underneath your legs now you have nowhere to go there's no standing up there's no jiu-jitsu where there's no option like that. Like jiu-jitsu, I did a competition called the Contenders. Do you remember that? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so it was jiu-jitsu versus wrestling. Yeah, I remember that. Wrestling didn't do that well. Well, because they didn't understand submissions. Right. You know, that was when, you know, Frank Shamrock was there. I think he tapped Dan Henderson. I think he got him at an ankle lock.

Yes, yes. They just didn't understand the positions. And these guys were so good at submissions. Kevin Jackson. Yeah, Kevin. Kevin Jackson. Kenny Monday. Kenny Monday, that's right.

Yeah, Kevin Jackson fought Frank Shamrock, and he got armbarred. They just didn't understand the positions. But if they did, but if they did, if they had real training, having that ability, the wrestler's ability. First of all, wrestlers are the very best at controlling bodies. They're the very best at taking people down. And then the next step is just understanding those submissions. The hardest guys to deal with, for sure, in jiu- Jitsu are guys who are great wrestlers who learn Jiu Jitsu because they already know how to control bodies.

So then they understand these new positions and they just have this massive advantage in being able to control bodies. It's still the cornerstone for MMA. If you can't wrestle you can't fight. Right. Because guys just take you down. Their guys are stand up

fighters and they try to get in there and do it and they get crushed. Because guys just take you down. No matter how good a striker. Their rise has tried to be their stand-up fighters, and they try to get in there and do it. They get crushed. Yeah, there's not a lot of guys who can't wrestle who ever wind up doing well in the sport. Yeah, I saw a funny thing. Again, it's all on Instagram. These memes lately are videos.

But I saw a good one of Derek Lewis going, wrestling's not that big of a deal. All you have to do is stand up. And then it shows this reel of wrestlers taking him down and he just rolls over and starts planting a foot. But not with Daniel Cormier. Right. Daniel Cormier got him down and submitted him.

See, it's just who you're doing it to. When you deal with a wrestler as elite as Cormier, here's Derek just standing up. But Derek is just a giant of a man and has ferocious knockout power. Look, he just pushes people off. The ability to plant a foot and just stand up is incredible. But that reach around move, that's a legit move, whether he knew it or not. Craig Jones does that.

That reach from the position, you get into that spot. He actually has, I think he calls it the octopus guard like or reach around it Craig's really funny but Craig Craig actually does that but he stands up with everybody and that's with Roy Nelson there's a great grappler but you know when you got Derek throwing punches at you there's not a human alive I mean that guy punches so fucking hard Gary he's so crazy powerful. He just gets up. He just gets up.

And if you're fucking Roy Nelson, you're like, oh, shit. Like, someone's going to get him in an Americani. He's like, nah, I think I'll just stand up. Get up. Plants a foot. Stands up. Yeah. Then turns around.

That's a guy Derek, I think, would shine in pro wrestling at the end of his career. He just signed a new deal with the UFC. A new, I think it's an eight-fight deal. They're really giving him a lot of money, so I'm happy for him. You think he'll go all eight fights? I don't know. Who knows? It's so hard in that sport.

But the heavyweight division is so shallow. All he needs is to string together a few wins and he can fight for the title. shallow you know all he needs is string together a few wins and he could fight for the title because there's really only like i mean just like fucking 15 or 20 elite heavyweights whereas you go into like lightweight like 155 there's fucking there's a sea of them yeah 170 there's a sea of them 185 there's so many guys so there's like five times as many. Yeah. Heavyweight is probably the shallowest division. Hasn't it always been? Yeah. I mean, it's just there's not that many.

Those guys go into the NFL. Those guys go into the NFL, NBA, pro basketball. But I also think that the average human being is right in the middle, 165, 175. And I think that most of the people, like I'll tell you this, in amateur wrestling, most of the wrestlers are in the middle weights. And then as you go up and down, they become less and less and less and less. And then when you're at the very lightest weight, there's very few. And at the heaviest weight, there's very few. So there's like an average weight of people, of human beings,

and when you go higher and lower it gets lighter. There's another guy that everybody wanted to see compete in MMA, and that's Carellon. Did you ever get a chance to see Carellon compete? Yeah, yeah, man. You know what? These guys were so scared of him that when he would pick him up for the reverse gut wrench they would pin themselves.

They'd go over and pin themselves. It was like I went to the world championships one year and this guy's in the finals with corral and and corral goes to lift him up the guy turns over and pins himself i'm like why did you do that like you arrested corral at least you know try to beat him they were worried about getting smashed yeah they didn't want to get hurt yeah and hit you with the world yeah he would basically... I mean, there's a photo that we have in the gym out here that I put up just to remind myself

of what a pussy I am. It's Carellon. Show that photo. This black and white photo of Carellon. Where he's about to pick this guy. That photo right there. Look at that fucking photo. I mean, tell me that's not... That dude was 300 fucking pounds and moved like a panther. You know what's crazy?

That he got beat his last match. Yeah, well, he got beat by a new rule. A technicality. Yeah, the technicality was when you broke the grip, it counted as one point. And that was really at the end of his career. But Rulon Gardner was also a tank, too. He was, he was. And Rulon went on to fight, and he did fairly good.

Yeah, he did well in Pride. Yeah. But I just had Rulon on my podcast, and he said that, you know, wrestling Carellon, at that point in his career, he knew that Carellon wasn't in the best form of shape. Right. He wasn't the same. Yeah, yeah. But he was still Carellon. He was still Carellon. Yeah. Doesn't matter. I mean, he's the bad it wasn't the same. Yeah, yeah, but he was still Carellon. He was still Carellon. Yeah, doesn't matter. I mean, he's the baddest dude

on the planet. He was so big. And for Rulon to stay close with him and then end up beating him on a technicality, that's still pretty impressive. Very impressive. If you watched Carellon training, though, what was so fantastic about Carellon was his mobility. Yeah. Even though he was this enormous

guy, his mobility was sensational. See if you can find some of that footage of Carillon training. Good athlete. Incredible athlete. For a giant guy, he really emphasized his movement. And, you know, the Soviet training, what they were doing with those guys back then was so technical. Well, you know the rumor about him, right?

They called him the experiment. His parents were like small They're like my size and then you know all of a sudden they have this kid that just looks like some science project It does it does look like an experiment. It's like I've been who I've been Drago. Yeah was based off of bro He would have pretty much and Drago up and spiked him to China His feet would have been poking out of the fucking top of the earth. But if you watch his training, like a lot of his training was like box jumps and kettlebells and mobility.

A lot of it was like movement-based. He was very, very flexible. So you see that when you kind of fast-forward it through that, but what they showed before when he was on the mats there, look at that. Him wiggling around on the top of his shoulders. Wow. Look at that kind of fast forwarded through that, but what they showed before when he was on the mats there, look at that. Him wiggling around on the top of his shoulders. Wow. Look at that kind of agility. That's called mobility.

Yeah, for a 300-pound guy. I mean, and this is at the end of his career, too. But he was all about athleticism and also being fucking enormous and incredibly strong, but moved like a panther. Now, why didn't he fight? He had one kind of fake fight. I think he had one, like, in Japan. What was interesting about Japan, Japan had real fights mixed in with fake fights in the beginning. They eventually became all real fights.

That was pride, right? Yeah. So there were some fights that they had, and also in some other organizations, some smaller organizations. So is this Carellan? Yeah. So this was kind of like a fake fight. I think he gets tapped in here. And this is at the end.

You know, he wasn't wrestling anymore. And I think they just probably gave him a lot of money. I forget how he loses here. But it seemed suspicious. You think he just threw it? I think so. I don't know. I'll be honest with you.

Watching him compete, I just didn't. I always thought that if he ever fought he would just dominate i think he would have too in his prime i don't think a human being would have been able to stop him no that was the end that was the end okay so he didn't i thought i don't want to think maybe he fought more than once i don't think it was a real mma fight though. Because it just didn't I don't know. It was weird over there. Because Japan had such a history of pro wrestling that a lot of their early

stars, you got a pee? A lot of their early stars in MMA were also stars in pro wrestling like Takada. When Takada fought in the first UFC. Takada. But he fought Hickson Gracie and that was a real fight. And Hickson was quite Yeah, yeah. But he fought Hickson Gracie, and that was a real fight. And Hickson was quite a bit smaller than him,

but Hickson was the master of jiu-jitsu back then. I mean, he was so advanced. Yeah, he was the man, huh? He was the man. Yeah. And, you know, he was the guy that when Hoist Gracie won the UFC, everyone said, listen, Hoist is great, but his brother is literally 100 times better than him. That's what I heard.

Yeah, and then you would see him roll. What Hickson would do famously is he would teach a seminar with world champions in the crowd, black belts, teach a seminar, explain to him certain principles that he used, and then at the end of the seminar he'd roll with everybody. And he would roll with them one at a time. So these guys would wait, and then these black belts, world champions, like the top of the food chain. They would go in there and roll with hickson and hicks they would tap them all there's

videos of it of him just effortlessly tapping everybody just rotating in and out rotating no breaks bring in the next guy my friend and they would come in and he would tap them too it's just his level of jiu jitsu was so advanced he started his dad was elio gracie started when he was a kid and the thing that separated him from some of those other guys was his physicality because hickson his knowledge was as good better than anybody's but his movement and his physicality he was also he was jacked and he was like one of the first jacked gracies well let me ask you this why why was Hoist the one they pushed? There's a lot of talk about that.

Is it because of Hickson's age? No, no, no, no. Because Hickson was still young. One thing was that Horry and Gracie, who started the UFC, he could control Hoist. And you couldn't tell Hickson what to do. And the thought was, if Hoist ever lost, then they'd bring in Hickson. But Hoist didn't lose Hickson what to do. Okay. And the thought was if Hoyce ever lost, then they bring in Hickson. But Hoyce didn't lose. Hoyce was tapping everybody.

And it was also – it was in some ways a better advertisement for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu because you had this guy in Hoyce who was 175 pounds who was tapping guys like Dan Severn with a triangle choke from his back. Yeah, he was smaller. He was smaller than everybody. So it showed just that jiu-jitsu was superior. Because the early days of the UFC

was really an advertisement for Gracie jiu-jitsu. Yes, it was. Horian was a genius, and his idea was like look, he knew that jiu-jitsu was superior if you didn't know it. So all these guys that didn't understand what those submissions were, they didn't understand those positions, and Hoist wore the gi. So when he would grab ahold

of guys, guys would instinctively grab his gi. They didn't understand. They didn't know how to push him off. They didn't know how to leg kick him. They didn't know how to do any of those things back then. So they would wind up getting dragged to the ground. And Hoist was just so much better than everybody. But still, his brother was

so much better than him. Hickson, yeah. Yeah, Hickson was the man. And everybody said, there was no argument back then. It was like, who's the best at jiu-jitsu? Everyone said Hickson. Everyone. That doesn't happen. There's always debate.

Even in boxing, like when Terrence Crawford fought Errol Spence, everybody was like, you know, maybe Spence is too big. I don't know. Back then, when it came to fighting, when it came to jiu-jitsu, everyone said it was Hickson. But Hickson went over to Japan, and he competed in Valley Tudor Japan in 1994. And that was, what was it, 96? I forget.

It might have been 96. And that was when, you know, MMA was really just emerging. And the first Pride, Pride 1, was with Hickson. Hickson versus Takata. Oh, Takata worked with Hickson. Yeah. See if you can find that. Pride 1, Hickson versus Takata.

But it's just like once Hickson got you to the ground, man, you were just fucked. You were fucked. He was just too good. He was too good and he was strong he was just a different guy he was just now he was bigger than hoist right yes he was bigger have like a good gracie documentary explaining how these guys basically invented jiu jitsu and stuff yeah gracie in action is very good but this is hickson when he was young, when he was in his prime. I mean, that's Hoyler behind him. And this is like, and Takata at the time was this pro wrestler.

And, you know, I don't know what he knew in terms of real martial arts. And Hickson, I mean, this is a different world. I mean, even if you just see how these guys are moving around, Hickson just stood straight up and walked towards him. He doesn't look scared. No, not at all. He just knew all he has to do is get a hold of you. But, again, he's not fighting a guy who's like a real legit striker.

And when he did, he fought Funaki, and Funaki wound up fracturing his orbital bone, but Hickson choked him to sleep in, like, one of the most dramatic finishes ever in MMA he like literally had him asleep out cold in a choke with you know blood all over the place it was pretty wild was it his orbital bone or was it his opponents oh he got hit by Funaki and Funaki fractured his orbital so that now Hickson like assumes Mount and by the way this is you know nobody was as good as Hickson back then.

His jiu-jitsu was so good. And look, you see how different he is than Hoyce. He was muscular. So he was very physically strong, incredibly agile. He could do yoga. He was an incredible yogi. So he had the physicality, but also the incredible. So right now, that right arm of funaki's fuck or takata's

fucked so as he's reaching with his arms right there he doesn't understand hicks is just kind of softening him up here he is kind of taking it easy on him huh well he's just he's just cooking them they would just take their time and once he's got you in mount you're not getting out he gets him in the arm bar here so he picks an arm whichever arm he chose i think he chose the left arm and he's basically just pushing down on him and now yeah see his right knee comes up and that's it whap and now you're fucked now you're fucked and he tapped him now see find uh hickson versus fun. That was Coliseum in the year 2000, I believe. And that year was the year that that was when Fedor was emerging and all these other guys were emerging.

And this was Hickson's final fight. You didn't fight after this? This is it? No, this was it. This is his last fight. And they were talking about him fighting and competing against Fedor. That was the big one. And he wanted a very large sum of money that they probably should have paid him

because that would have been insane. How good was Fedor? Fedor was amazing. He was amazing. He might have been the best heavyweight of all time. He certainly was in that argument. In his prime. So he's beating him up here.

And then he eventually gets his back and strangles him. And he puts him to sleep. And it's so dramatic. Because there's blood coming out of Funaki's face. And he catches the choke here. And Funaki doesn't tap either. He just goes out. He goes out.

Yeah, he just goes out cold. But he goes out with his eyes open. So when you watch the choke, when they show up right here, like this is it. It's a wrap right here. Oh, my God. So look at his eyes. Oh.

Yeah, he's out cold. They're stuck open. Yeah, he's just out cold. Jeez. The early days, Kurt Angle. That was the early days. It was barbaric. It was wild.

It's wild. And to see where it is now and to see what's really crazy is this Francis Ngannou-Tyson Fury fight that's going to happen. It is? It's happening. Wow. October. Yeah.

That's what Francis is coming in to talk about. He's been training for it. Yeah. Is that in America? No. Saudi Arabia. Oh, okay. Yeah. Those Saudi No. Saudi Arabia. Oh, okay. Yeah. Those Saudi Arabians,

man. Oh, yeah. They're throwing that money around. Oh, yeah. I don't know how Francis is going to do. This is a boxing match, right? Well, conventional wisdom says Tyson Fury, who's one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time, is going to box his face off. That's conventional wisdom, but there's also the possibility that he overestimates things,

underestimates Francis, and gets clipped. Who knows? A few months, Tyson Fury could be a vegan. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm just happy Francis is getting a lot of money. But Dana White talked about this recently, that there is a possibility that if Francis fights Tyson Fury and after that comes back and fights Jon Jones, that would be the ultimate.

Well, that could be two straight losses for him too. Yeah, probably. That's the thing about John too. John can do everything. Yeah, you know what? He's my favorite. Yeah. Always has been ever since he came out, man.

He is the most overall talented fighter I've ever seen. So talented. So intelligent too. Just knows what to do. By the time he gets in the octagon with someone, he knows everything about them. He knows all their tendencies. He knows what they do with their right legs forward. Oh, yeah.

He's meticulous about it. It's not luck that makes John that good. Yeah, well, I thought it was talent. It's talent, too. It's talent, too. But it's one of those things, right? To be the best of the best, it can't just be talent. There's got to be so many factors. It's mindset. It's that, too, but it's one of those things, right? To be the best of the best, it can't just be talent. There's got to be so many factors.

It's mindset. It's that warrior mindset. It's, you know, having an incredible skill set. It's just knowing so much about the art of fighting. And you've got to realize John has been fighting at a world championship level for, God, what year did he win the title? fighting at a world championship level for, God, what year did he win the title? I mean, he won the title when he was 22 years old when he fought Mauricio Shogun Hua. And since then, every fight he has had since then, except for like one or two,

has been a world title fight. Wow. Which is just nuts. Yeah. Just nuts. Talk about consistent. Yeah. Yeah.

And again, that wrestling base. And again, that wrestling base. He's got that wrestling base. I mean, that wrestling base is, in my opinion, the best base ever to enter into MMA. And it's also what you were talking about with the training with Dan Gable. It's the mental toughness. There's no one more mentally tough. Yeah, wrestlers do have a lot of mental toughness. And, you know, it's a tough sport.

It really is. It's as tough as it gets. Yeah. I mean, and there's no money in it, right? So you have to be just tough. You can't be tough because, you know, you're going to buy a house, tough because you want to drive a Bentley. Even the weight cutting alone.

Oh, yeah. Did you ever have trouble cutting weight? I didn't cut weight. Heavyweight. I wrestled up a weight class. Always. God, what a dream. I actually weighed 199 at the Olympics.

And the lower weight class was 198. Wow. I could have made that. I wrestled at 220. Yeah. Smart. Yeah. And also, I weighed 197 when I wrestled with Sylvester Turcay in the NCAA Championship, Division I Championship, my senior year.

He was 270. He was about 6'6", real big, big kid. Looked like a Greek god. And you were 199? I was 197. Wow. Yeah. What was the mindset behind that of not cutting that extra pound?

Why? Why do I want to um no i could have made it easily but what i did is i tricked myself and said you don't have to diet you just eat whatever you want you can stay where you are so i i figured you know why well I'm sorry. College is 190, not 198. That's Olympics. Right. That was the old weight classes in the Olympics. College is 190.

I would have had to lose seven pounds to make it. So why starve myself when I don't have to? I can win at heavyweight. Wow. That was my reason. Well, that's incredible because that's how good you were. You actually did that. Yeah, nobody else has that problem.

Right, that's the whole mindset of weight cutting. I'd rather be the bigger guy. I was a hand fighter, and I had great positioning. And that's why I won so many matches. Nobody could score on me, and I was always on them. I was getting them tired. And I never let them breathe uh i was always on them you know i was getting them tired and uh i never never let them breathe i was all over them just hand fighting and attacking them and staying in their face headbutting them everything anything i could do the time that you wrestled

brock do you remember what you did was it double leg takedowns did you like duck unders ah yes yeah yeah because brock uh brock would come with these double legs. Right. He'd come up and I jack them up and duck under and get behind him. Yeah. So it would be like in a flurry, you know, I w I wouldn't just do a move. He'd do something. I'd counter and do it.

You'd be happy to know. I beat up on our friend, David Lucas, who weighs about 330 pounds with a duck under. Who did? I did. You did. You did? At 145 pounds. Well, David was tired in 13 seconds. David's a little overweight.

All of his training is exhaust training. Yeah. He starts out exhausted. He's tying his shoes. Yeah. But there was a lot of shit talking before that. They wrestled on the stage at the Vulcan Comedy Club. Yeah.

It was hilarious. He was talking shit for months. There he is. Look at him. He's just flat. David was done. See me counting the score? Two points.

We had Chinese dumplings right before that. Whiskey, tequila, Chinese dumplings, and blunts. So it's not exactly a sanctioned wrestling match. It definitely was not that. It definitely was not that. I did take off my cowboy boots to do that. I still have a bandana wrapped around my neck. I think he was wearing socks too.

What's just incredible about your career was that you were able to accomplish that by violating that one cardinal rule. You want to fight and be the biggest you can in your weight class. And you were like, fuck it. Yeah, yeah. I didn't want to have to do that. I didn't want to have to lose weight. I was like, why?

I just wrestled 220 for the Olympics and heavyweight for a college wrestling. How much do you think you weighed in the Olympics? I weighed 199 when I wrestled 220. The weight class below was 198. Were you faster? Were you a little bit faster than the big guys? This was Turkey. This is the guy

6'6". He was 270. I was 197 here. Incredible. That's incredible. Look at the size difference. This kid was, he was like, he was a pinner. He pinned everybody.

Actually, he pinned all five opponents before this match. Wow. Within a minute. Did any of your coaches try to get you to go down to the next weight? They never fought me on it. They knew my mind was made up. They didn't care. I was winning

titles. I guess as long as you're winning. But it's so crazy that you violated that conventional wisdom. You know what? I would have won at 190 too. Not that I'm bragging, but Mark Kerr won the NCAAs. When Kerr started

beating me, he got bigger. But I think I could have probably beaten Kerr in college. It wasn't like I was trying to stay away from people. I just didn't have to lose weight. That's amazing. One of the biggest problems in MMA is the weight cutting.

It's a real problem. You know what? Not only that, not only is it hard, it takes the fun out of it, and then you don't enjoy what you're doing anymore. And not only do you have to worry about the fight, now you have to worry about your weight too. And it's just like you just have so much shit, so much stress going on at one time. The last thing you need to be worrying about is your weight yeah yeah just

and all you're worrying about at least from my high school experience all you're worrying about is your weight until the match and then you're like okay now i get to now i get to fight and you're like oh shit i have to fight and and i will also agree with you because uh when you're cutting weight you're not training properly right you're not able to have the the energy to train right right so now all you're doing is you're letting someone beat you up while you have plastics on you're rolled up in a ball and this person's just beating the shit out of you and trying to get you to sweat yeah it really lowers your work ethic yeah so you don't want to do that well i've always said it

about mma it's the one thing that i would cut out if i could i think there should be more weight It really lowers your work ethic. Yeah. So you don't want to do that. I've always said it about MMA. It's the one thing that I would cut out if I could. I think there should be more weight classes, and I think they should make guys fight at whatever the weight they're at. I think it's sanctioned cheating. I mean, I really do. I really think that's what it is. When you've got guys like Alex Pejeta, that's probably the best example. He weighed in at 185 when he fought Israel Adesanya and won the title.

When he got into the octagon, he was 226. Oh. He gained that much weight. He gained 40 pounds. You know what? That is what I was scared of. That's what happened to me for the Olympics. Like Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman, they would cut down to 220 and get up to 245.

And I was wrestling down at 200, 299 pounds. I was like, holy shit, like holy shit man this is not right but they probably tired more yeah yeah they did they did I mean and especially if you have a full belly and you're wrestling on a full belly that's not going to be good because they've been starving themselves forever

so you know when they finally get a chance to eat they're going to eat that's going to slow them down but then the mindset is but at least somebody would be bigger. Yeah, you're right. Well, that's the ultimate triumph of skill and mindset over everything else. It didn't matter what you weighed. No. It's pretty fucking impressive.

I didn't have to worry about it. And you know what? My training was better than anyone else's. I had more intense training. I was able to do whatever I wanted to do. And I could eat whatever I wanted to do. And I could eat whatever I wanted to eat. And you could recover better. Yeah, I was recovering a lot quicker than

everybody else. Yeah. Well, I really wish they would do something about that in MMA. I really do. I mean, I just think if they just had more weight classes. There's just only eight weight classes. They should have more weight classes. That's not enough. No, I don't think so. I'd say about 12. I think 12. I'd say about 12.

I think 12. 12 would be right, yeah. I think every 10 pounds is the right way to go. Yeah. I mean, in boxing, I mean, you've got, it's so much different. You've got 135, then you've got 140, and then you've got 147, and then you've got 154, and then you've got 160, and then you've got 168, and then you've got 75. Like, that to me makes more sense. It makes a lot more sense.

Yeah. But it's just for whatever reason, this is just how people have been doing it for a long time in MMA. And like when you stand there, like there's guys that weigh 185 pounds and I stand next to him when I'm interviewing him. I'm like, how the fuck did you ever weigh, like Pajero, how the fuck are you ever 185 pounds? Right. What's he, 210? He's giant. Yeah.

And he's fucking dense like this table like when you put your hand on the guy he feels like a table right wow it's just nuts and it takes a lot out of their body too it's terrible for their kidneys terrible for their their just their overall body 24 hours before an mma fight you're literally on death's door almost dead you're exactly right there have been a lot of guys that cut weight this has been rushed to a hospital this paid a before and after it's not hard to tell like that's see see they're at 99 kilograms so what is 99 kilograms 220 something holy yeah yeah that's two and then he went up to light heavyweight and he just beat Jan

Bohovic at light heavyweight who was the to light heavyweight, and he just beat Jan Bohovic at light heavyweight, who was the former light heavyweight champion. But he's a real freak. He's the greatest example of weight cutting. Like, no one cuts weight like that guy. No one's that big at 185 pounds. He has some tricks up his sleeve. He's able to cut weight like that? I don't know what he's doing.

I mean, it's a lot of mental toughness, too. A lot of mental toughness. Maybe genetics. Maybe his body's just able to do it better some guys just their body breaks down they're trying to dehydrate themselves like that it's hard brushing your teeth the morning of that's the thing i always remember the saturday mornings brushing your teeth your mouth wants to drink the water swallow the toothpaste because it's in your mouth there's been nothing in your mouth for days yeah you want to swallow it yeah

exactly what's crazy about wrestling is you have to compete the day of yeah that's what's yeah you weigh in and then you compete that's what's nice yeah that's really nuts because of mma the the stark contrast but they also now they weigh in in the morning and then what we do is we have uh an official weigh-in ceremony at 5 p.m. So when I announce it, I'll say, you know, like, Robert Whitaker, official weight 186. But he's not 186 when he's standing there. He's really probably like 200 pounds. It's like 186 is like for a couple minutes.

Yeah. Where he gets down there, sucks it up, and then they start rehydrating the electrolytes. Yes, Pejeta. During the wake-up. Yeah, so here's during the wake-up. I mean, the guy's fucking dying. Look at him. He's just lying there.

They're covering him with plastics and thermal suits. He has no energy. No, I mean, he's literally dying. I mean, you can't do this very long. And it takes a long fucking time for him to drain himself down to 185. And I think he's more suited at 205 anyway. How tall is he? He's big.

He's about 6'4". Oh, gosh. Yeah. He's big. And he's got giant mitts. I mean, his fucking hands are huge. The guy's got just paws. Just massive knockout power and a huge size advantage.

But also, I think it affects your chin. I think when you do cut that kind of weight, you can't take a shot as well. You take a shot better when your body's healthy. Yeah, when you're eating right and you're mentally and physically strong. So when Tyson Fury fights Francis Ngannou, Francis Ngannou used to cut weight to make 265.

Right. Which is crazy. Because the UFC has a weight limit. Is he going to have to cut weight or not? No. Good. The UFC had a weight limit, which is nuts. On their heavyweights?

On their heavyweights, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, because there's a super heavyweight division that we've never used. Has anybody ever used it? Pride, you know, but pride has crazy rules. Like pride, they're allowed to do steroids. Like when Ensign Inouye was on my podcast, he explained that in pride they had in the contract, in all capital letters, we do not test for steroids. No shit.

You know, I'm not telling you what to do, but I'm telling you what to do. Right, right. Take them. They wanted you to look awesome. They wanted you to fight at your best and look huge. That'll help. That'll help. Yeah.

Might mean for sure. Yeah. Crazy sport. Yeah. Well, Kurt Angle, it's been an honor and a privilege having you in here, man. I'm a giant fan. You're a fucking stellar human being. I really appreciate it. Can I ask one more question? Yeah, please do. and a privilege having you in here, man. I'm a giant fan. You're a fucking stellar human being.

Can I ask one more question? Yeah, please do. I've always wanted to know, where does one keep a gold medal like yours? Good question. Is it in a sock? Is it in a safe? Is it right when you walk into your house in a glass case?

I'll tell you what happened. I used to take it with me to all my events whenever I would speak or do appearances. The actual one? Yeah. Wow. And so one time I took it to an appearance and this little kid grabbed it and he was holding it and he kind of grabbed the ribbon and he started flinging it. Oh no.

And he let it go and it hit the wall. So there was a big dent in my gold medal. So I never took it to another event again. It's been in my safe because my kids, they were playing Barbie one day and they had the gold medal around the Barbie and I was like, okay, they're just going to get makeup on this. So I decided from now on I'm going to keep it in a safe. So it's away from my kids and it's away from anybody that's going to do any damage to it because I already had damage done to my medal and I'm not going to have it again.

There's a kid out there somewhere listening to this, cringing. How old do you think that kid is now? Oh, God, that was 10 years ago. He'd be about 18. He's probably listening going, oh, fuck! You know what? I never even thought about that. Oh, that poor kid.

You're just a little kid. You don't know any better. Yeah, I did it. Yeah, whoops. Sorry, kid. Listen, thank you very much for being here, man. I really appreciate it. It was awesome having you.

I appreciate it. And I just want everybody out there to watch my documentary. It's called Angle. It's on Peacock. All right. And one more time, the supplement is Physically Fit? PhysicallyFit.com. Yeah.

All right. It's called Chicken Snacks and Smart Snacks. All right. Yeah. Thank you very much. Oh, and Kill Tony, you guys sold out the arena. You have another one now. Yeah.

Second show. December 30th. Which is wild. Yeah, it's already halfway sold out. That is wild. Yeah. Podcasts in an arena, the HEB Arena right here in Austin. In Austin. Unbelievable. Yeah, and I'm on tour all over the country. TonyHinchcliffe. Yeah. Podcasts in an arena, the HEB Arena right here in Austin. In Austin.

Unbelievable. Yeah, and I'm on tour all over the country, TonyHinchcliffe.com. All right. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody.