The Joe Rogan Experience - #2045 - Jimmy Carr

Episode Date: October 7, 2023

Jimmy Carr is a stand-up comic, writer, actor, and television host. Carr's most recent special, "His Dark Material," is available on Netflix.  www.jimmycarr.com

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. Hey, Joe, how are you? Good to see you, buddy. It's very nice to see you. This is, it's a hell of a setup. Thank you.

I'm like in Austin, Texas. I've been here about 18 hours and it's, yeah, five stars on TripAdvisor so far. Did you do a set last night? I didn't do a set, but I went to the club. Yeah. And the club is, it's phenomenal. Thank you. It's almost like someone with an unlimited budget built a comedy club.

That's what it felt like, Joe. I don't know. I don't know if your business manager has a view on this. Yeah. I think something along the lines of. I'm not good at taking advice. Yeah. But it's so great

it's so set up from the comics point of view it's like no food no food is a great choice people can eat afterwards there's so many places to eat on 6th street there's a nice pizza place right next door your neighbours are going to love you as well

because it's that thing if you go yeah it creates a bit of a community and it's full it's packed packed with people and yeah it's kind of yeah it's phenomenal great space well it's one of those kevin costner things you know you build it they will come from the field of dreams yeah well it feels kind of bigger than that as well in terms of you know you've come out here and what are you giving back and comedy's giving you everything as it has me and you well, what can you give back? What can you do for your community? And it feels like that's a great thing to do.

Well, it also seemed like I kind of had to do it. Because when I moved here, I had this idea that I'd just be able to do whatever local spots I could and then go on the road. And I kind of could. But one of the things that I've realized is that comics need community it's very important like and that's one of the things that we really had at the comedy store that made the comedy store so special is that it wasn't just that it was a great place to work and come up with new material and work on it but it was also a great place to meet other people that were doing the same thing it's interesting comedy as opposed to acting. Yeah. You know that Alan Havey said this great thing to me.

He said, comedians, we're out for ourselves, but in it together. I thought, oh, that's, it's really interesting that thing of like going, yeah, everyone's doing their own things. Comedy is not like acting. It's not a zero sum game. Right.

So you doing your thing, no matter how successful you are, has no impact on my thing. If anything, you pull me up. Yes are, has no impact on my thing. If anything, you pull me up. Yes. So comedy becomes like a bigger thing. If someone does fantastically and they're playing hockey arenas, then more people are pulled up through the clubs and the theaters into the arenas. Sure. It feels like it feels like we're living in a golden age for comedy. It feels to me like this is what it must have felt like to work in music or movies in the 70s.

Yeah. It's like, it feels like there's something culturally going on with comedy where it feels like it's got a value that people need it. People need to go out

and feel like they're part of a community. And I suppose when you think about what we're doing on stage, it is pretty special. We're letting people into our minds and we go into their bodies. Yeah. We're possessing them.

We change their physical state. It's extraordinary. It is extraordinary. It really is like a drug. You're giving people a happy drug. Well, it's the endorphin because you don't quite know when the punch is coming. And then the serotonin of laughter. And the live experience as well it's like

the live experience is so incredible for comedy even as opposed to music because what you get when you go out to a comedy club well you'll laugh 30 times more than watching the footage and really and and props to netflix netflix have been part of the reason comedy is having this golden age but you go watching something on screen is like that's how you find out what you want to go and see live. Yeah. And live is so much better. Because physically it gets you in a different way. And you see people kind of coming at their body language changes their whole. And they get into this kind of this state with a performer.

They breathe with the performer. They kind of they roll with it. And it's so immersive. And you don't remember a word of what the comedian said. You remember how they made you feel. Yeah. There's also the shared experience of being there with other people that really feels good for people. And you're laughing with a bunch of people. Especially in a world where the individual has become sacrosanct and the tribe has been left to the side. And people want to feel a bit tribal. They want to feel like they're part of something.

Why do people want to go to music festivals and South by Southwest and Glastonbury? And they want to go and see a comedy show. They want to be in a room and a thousand people that all have the same sense of humor. Yeah. And feel a bit bonded. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And there's also with our art form, it's uniquely coming from one person.

Unless you're a singer-writer there's really not or an author those are like probably the only other people any other mass form of entertainment that you're seeing you're seeing a lot of different people collaborating which is good like in a film you have to have that but there's something about an individual's perspective and someone going, what the fuck is this? And it's I mean, for me, that thing of, you know, stand up is naturally progressive. For me, it's like stand up is about there's an Overton window about what, you know, that theory of the Overton window, what is and what isn't acceptable to talk about publicly. And comedy is always pushing the edge of that. Not just edgy comedy. I do quite edgy stuff.

It's not about being edgy particularly. Even someone doing observational stuff, Seinfeld, saying the world is crazy. Nothing makes any sense. This is ridiculous. He says the thing, and it pushes. Or someone talking about their relationships and their kids. It pushes what's acceptable to talk about in everyday life further. And it expands that window.

And so we have more open, meaningful conversations. Like you go and see a comedy show, you have a much more interesting chat afterwards. You go to comedy on a date night, it becomes like a more interesting conversation because something the guy said sparked something. It pushes that. It pushes the conversation. It's naturally progressive. Yeah, it is. And also in this day and age, it's one of the rare places where you can hear people speak freely about controversial subjects.

And in my club, we lock up the phone so people don't they're not self-conscious and they're also not distracted. And then you don't have to worry about that thing of like clips. It is weird, isn't it? The locking up the phones is such an interesting point because that's what people want. Yeah. They want that boundary of going, I'm in a live...

Yeah. Like, there's lots of people that would... You would watch your favorite show. You'd watch, I don't know, whatever you like, like Game of Thrones or an MMA fight

or whatever. And if you have your phone near you, there's a temptation to check the news and refresh and refresh and see what's going on and to ruin the experience for yourself but somehow being out in public like you you're

aware like it's it's performative being in a crowd like we're not the only ones performing at a comedy club or in a theater the audience are performing people how are you doing like you ask an audience how you doing and they go yay no one, how are you doing? And they go, yay! No one says that one on one. No one's ever said, hey, how are you doing, Joe? Yeah! You sound psychotic. But in an audience, it's entirely acceptable

to be that person, to dance and to clap along. You'd look strange listening to a band play live and just standing and listening. And and not dancing in the crowd right and that thing about going well this is it's performative being in the audience don't think you're the only one performing they're all with you they're all that the laughter is you're partly you're signaling it doesn't mean that it's fake laughter but you're signaling to other people that you got it and you're applauding when you kind of agree a little bit yeah it's there's a rhythm to it being in an audience is a performance and it's so fun to do yeah it is it's my favorite thing to watch still after all these years i love i watched christina

pozitsky last night it was awesome was it fantastic oh she's so funny but it's just it's fun it's fun to laugh it's fun to see someone's writing and see where they're going with ideas. And it's also the same and totally different. It's a guy on stage with a mic, a girl on stage with a mic, and it just, what's he doing with this? It's a totally different thing. It's that self-authored thing. I mean, the thing I'm working on at the moment,

I'm slightly jealous of the club. I'll be honest. I sort of saw the club last night. I'm like, this is quite something to do, to set up a club and to have that community. And it's great. And I think that I'm trying, I'm working at the moment on a, I don't know whether it's a book or whether it's a, I think it might be like an online course, but a comedy course. And how to do stand-up? How to write jokes. How to be a stand-up. That's great.

I think, here's my vision for it. I think we're going through a golden period. But maybe it's just beginning. Comedy is quite a new medium anyway. We get to be the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, or certainly someone in our generation does. If you think about it like George Carlin and Richard Pryor were John the Baptist or someone's coming through.

It's like that thing of like, it feels like it's getting bigger and bigger. My vision is it gets taught in schools. So we teach music and we teach drama and art and I think stand-up comedy is an art form and I think we need to get less

less magical thinking and more okay let's put down a language like music you can write it let's come up with the i mean i kind of i'm working on like 50 joke types but let's come up with a a way of analyzing this and teach people how to do it because what does it give you like if your kid does stand-up comedy okay well it, they have to find their voice. They have to look at things from a different angle, a different perspective. It's about pattern recognition. These are all transferable skills. And it's about finding your voice. The reason every stand-up is interesting to watch is because it's individual voices. And really what's growing up about? What's school about? watches because it's individual voices yeah and really what's growing up about what's school about finding your voice finding out what you're about finding out who you are like i don't think it's

a dumb idea to teach stand-up comedy and to say well everyone should give this a go because even people that have done i've got a couple of people that come see me live or whatever that tell me i did like four or five gigs 10 years ago but they enjoy stand-up comedy more than the average person. It's like someone who can play a little bit of guitar, goes and sees and goes, well, this is. They have an inkling of how good it is. Someone that does a little bit of jujitsu, I imagine, goes and sees an MMA fight and goes, he's good.

They've got like some idea. It's like they've gone from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence. Yeah. We've actually talked many times about putting together a course. And we've thought about doing it maybe at the club. And, you know, just having professional comics that are on their way up that are just starting and having like a workshop where we could talk to them about material about the importance of editing about getting to the point quickly uh you know and and how to i think it would be great because how many comics do we

know guys that do this for a living and are doing great that that do have magical thinking well it just comes to me, and I need to do this to make it happen. Understanding how to write music has never damaged anyone's creativity. So I think the idea of analyzing it and treating it like a job, and how do you sit down and write? And some people go,

well, I don't sit down and write. It just occurs to me. And you go, well, okay. But there's a great quote by Chuck Close. You know the artist Chuck Close? No. He's a great artist, like, pointer list. And he said, inspiration is for amateurs.

The rest of us just go to work. Yeah, that's similar to Steven Pressfield's work, you know, The War of Art. Oh, I love that book. Yeah, fantastic book. It's really something, isn't it? But I think I'm on to something here because I think a lot of people want to do something creative with their lives. I think a lot of people want to, uh, they, they like standup comedy. It's, it's becoming a bigger thing. I think more people will want to try it and just giving them the,

the kind of the, the instruction manual early on. Yeah. So, cause, cause then what they're having to do is what, what we did, you watch a lot of comedy and then you kind of reverse engineer what you hear people do. So you watch the greats, you watch Stephen Wright and Emo Phillips and Rita Rudner and Wanda Sykes and whatever you're looking at and you go, OK, so they must have had the punch line first and then they must have if they were doing that wordplay. That's how that that's probably how they did it. Okay, so you take the, you can take all the structure. You can steal the structure and then come up with your own content. It's a great kind of, you know.

Yeah. Well, that's what a lot of people do in the beginning, right? They make jokes that are similar to a joke that someone that they enjoy would write. Yes, it's in their voice. It's in there. They find themselves kind of doing. And then there's different ages in comedy

where certain people kind of come through and have a real effect on how everyone's performing. Like David Tell. Yeah. Patrice O'Neill used to always talk about how many babies he had. Yeah. Like in so many comics copied his voice.

And David Tell's like probably one of the bigger ones. Well, I think he's been incredibly influential. It feels like he's got the props later on. But I mean, it kind of... He's the worst at promoting of any... There's two brilliant comedians that are fucking terrible at promoting. And because of that,

they don't get the credit they deserve. Colin Quinn and David Tell. Those are, in my opinion, those are the two that should be selling out arenas. Yeah, I mean Colin Quinn's solo shows, I think there's three or four now. He just did one at the club a couple weeks ago and the whole staff, everyone, the comics, the staff, everyone was raving about how brilliant his writing was, the timing. They said he put on a master class.

It's almost like everything he says is in that comedic tone. He's been incredibly influential. I think he shows are fabulous. And then, you know, a tale, it feels like you haven't put out enough material. I'm kind of almost like, I don't want to be morbid here, but David Tell's not going to live forever. And at some stage you go, there's not enough.

I mean, there's shanks for the memories, which is great. And there's lots of kind of appearances here and there. But it feel like I want more. Yes. Well, I mean, I love Bumping Mike's. I thought Bumping Mike's was like, it's great. That's another great like, you know, Netflix hats off, you know, to give Jeff Ross and Dave like to make it kind of feel like it was in three parts. And it felt like it felt like a visit to New York.

It felt really. And those shows, whenever there's a festival and those guys come and play, it feels like, oh, well, that's the late night hang. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. It's and it's so improvisational. They're both so good off the cuff. But it's magnificent. I think what Dave enjoys is just the work i mean when you talk to him he gets up in the morning or whenever he gets up he goes to the coffee shop smokes a cigarette drinks coffee and starts writing goes over the news finds out what's going on when he goes into a town like say he's in cleveland what's going on in cleveland oh the scandal with the mayor oh okay there's something going on with the roads oh okay and okay. And then he starts writing things about it.

The team sucks. Oh, let's write about that. This is the life, right? It's the, I don't know. I mean, maybe he's as successful as he needs to be because really what's this about? Right. It's quite stoic, I think. I've become quite the stoic on it going, well, the world ordered a stand-up comedian.

I need to honor that. Yes the world ordered a stand-up comedian. I need to honor that. Yes. I'm a stand-up. So anything that's not writing jokes or performing jokes is not doing the thing. Right. And the thing is all I care about. I would add to that, that it's good to experience life too. And then I think one of the things that accentuates life is accentuating your perspective on things. that comes from experiences and there's one one problem that some comics have where they just perform and travel all the time and a lot of their jokes

airplane material yeah you know it revolves around what they know it's hard that work-life balance is very tricky i've just i've had kids quite late in life and work-life balance is hard you know you know it's difficult being a comedian here's, here's the first world problem I have. Work is more fun than fun. Yeah. It's more fun than fun. More fun than any vacation. What are you doing on a night out?

Yeah. No, we went and had dinner. Okay. Did 1,000 people clap when you walked in the restaurant? No. No, they didn't. Did you get a standing ovation as you left the restaurant? Right. Well, they didn't. Did you get a standing ovation as you left the restaurant? Well, no, I didn't.

And I thought I did very well at dinner. I have often thought of how many people live from the cradle to the grave and never kill. And what a sad thing that is to never experience that. Just drawing an audience for an hour. Here's the depressing thought.

Some people live and die and they never hear their own voice. So maybe teaching stand-up comedy. I kind of think that might be the next thing. I'm 50 now. I feel like it's, that might be the next thing of like going. And I'm kind of looking for things

that will make me feel like an imposter. I want to feel like an imposter. I want imposter syndrome. I like it. And I feel very comfortable in a an imposter. I want imposter syndrome. I like it. And I feel very comfortable in a theater stage now playing to 2,000 people. Great.

I want to play arenas so I don't feel as comfortable. And I want to kind of become a bit of a teacher because I think becoming a teacher, I think I'll go, I'm not good enough

to teach anyone. I can't wind your neck in. You're being presumptuous. I think that's a good feeling to chase. Yeah. Because imposter syndrome is like the most normal thing in the world. As you level up through life,

you should always feel like a bit of an imposter. I've talked to virtually every great comic and they all have had that. Yeah. They've all had that moment in their life. They're like, when the people are clapping

and they're introducing their name and everybody goes crazy, like, why are they clapping? What the fuck? I'm a fraud. I used to open with that in theaters. Let's manage our expectations, people.

It's a terrible thing when you get like when the applause is louder when you walk on than when you walk off. Oh, yes. And we've all had like, ah, okay, you were excited to see me, but the show wasn't ready yet. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always that. It's also, there's an incredible lack of documentation about the process of stand-up comedy. And it's one of the great things about podcasts is that it has served as an archive where you can, I mean, I've had dozens and dozens of conversations with great comics where I asked them about their process.

It is. I mean, partly that's the thing driving it. I mean, I think the podcast thing has taken off and it turns out talking about comedy in the process is interesting. I mean, I think there's breadcrumbs there, like Steve Martin's book, Born Standing Up. I think that's the if anyone's interested in the secrets of comedy, they're out there and it's about 10.99 in all good bookshops. But it's that thing of like going,

decoding that and making that kind of a, yeah, coming up with a language, coming up with a, with something that you could go give a 14 year old

and they could, you know, write their own jokes and I mean, they might not do it as a career but it might be a fun, a fun hobby to have.

At the moment, comedy feels like it's for the professionals, and there's no amateur circuit. But like music and sports, you've got professionals, okay? You've got the greats, and then you've got people that just do it for fun. Yeah. Why not have that going on? Why not have more comedians, more comedy clubs? Yeah.

Well, one of the things that we set up at our club is two nights of open mic nights so we have open mic night on sunday and open mic night on monday and then we have the staff of the club are the all the door people are all professional comedians who audition for that job with their act so they are people that aspire to be professionals and this is sort of like i met a couple of them last night. I mean, it's kind of great. It's great. Yeah, it's just, it's, but the whole vibe of the place then is it's, you know, everyone is in service. Yes.

Of this night, of this thing. Yes, this thing, yeah. A theatrical performance. that is consumed all over the world, loved by everyone, cherished by people, but does not have a direct professional path in order to be successful. It's not like music. You learn how to play guitar. You can take online classes. You can figure out how to compose music.

You can get together with bands and practice and put it together. There's a path. With stand-up comedy, it's just go practice and put it together. There's a path with standup comedy. It's just go up and figure it out. Yeah. Go up and figure it out. And it's very clunky and it's a lot of wasted time. And I think a lot of that time can be sort of repurposed if we can give people more clear guidelines. There's no way anyone can tell you how to do your style because your style is going to be different than Tony Hinchcliffe's style, which is going to be different than Dave Chappelle's style. Everybody's style and who they are and what they present their view of the world.

Comedians leak is always my kind of theory. You can't watch someone for an hour and not know who they are. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm joke to joke. I'm just joke to joke on stage and yet people know when i'm telling the truth and when i'm bullshitting and when it's real and when it's not real people get a real sense of you through your act yeah through watching you do you travel around the world much do you do yeah overseas so yeah i haven't been lately but i did the o2 arena uh a few months back actually a year ago did it did it in October last year.

Yeah. I did that just for fun. I mean, I'm like, I think I'm 40 countries in now ongoing. And you go, what's happened the last 10 years? Like, the English language has become bigger. And the English language was big to begin with. But things like YouTube and Netflix has meant, because there used to be a thing in certain countries where they would dub every movie and every TV show into the local language and they would get it a little bit later and it wouldn't matter. And the local actors would do the voice

and the show would be a hit. Great. That's all gone now in the age of kind of global connectivity. People know what Game of Thrones was on last night and the new specials by Joe is out this evening. So they watch it sort of straight away and they watch everything in English. YouTube doesn't bother translating things. So everyone's English has kind of gone up a gear. So you can go to quite obscure places and everyone wants to come out and see stand-up comedy

and they all know who you are. And they're all listening. It's kind of, it's an amazing way to see the world it's kind of it's an amazing way to see the world it is it is an amazing way to see the world and it is interesting how comedy translates into these other places and how they how they absorb comedy it's very different like i took tony to stockholm we did uh sweden it was great it was great but he was like dude i feel like i bombed i go you you did really well why was great. It was great. But he was like, dude, I feel like I bombed. I go, you did really well. Why? He goes, because there was like, they were quiet in between the jokes.

I was like, that's interesting. Yeah, you go to some places, though, and it's like, I remember playing places in Finland, Denmark, Sweden. Laugh, stop laughing. And then at the end of the show, nuts. Yeah. Because it's like, it's more like a theatrical performance is the thing that they've seen before.

Yes. Yes. I'm like, they laughed at all your jokes. Because it's more like a theatrical performance is the thing that they've seen before. Yes, yes. I'm like, they laughed at all your jokes. He's like, yeah, I know, but it just felt like it was disjointed. I go, you're just used to these rowdy American crowds that there's always noise going on. If you're used to playing the clubs as well. Yes. I play mainly theaters.

So if I go into a club, I'm very disturbed. They're serving drinks during the set. What's going on? What's happening here? But of course, because you're not in that field. There's certain countries where you'll get a standing ovation like Canada, America, Australia. Love a standing ovation. They're getting up to leave anyway. They might as well. The UK, the risen

Christ could come on stage and they'd go, yeah, I don't I don't think. Well done. It's like that's just not the thing. Why? Maybe it's me. My friends from the UK that have come to America. One of the things that they've all sort of said is that in the UK, they kind of want you to not do well. And whereas in America, they sort of celebrate you succeeding. I think culturally, if you think about what America is about, it's, you know, it's it really I suppose it dares to dream. It's it's there's a bit of a tall poppy syndrome in the UK where people do too well.

It's like, well, let's cut him down to size. Yes. Whereas America is is for, you know, dreamers and they're going to do something and they're going to it's exciting. Yeah. I mean, Austin's got a real feel at the moment for, you know, every city whispers to you. Yeah. So Los Angeles says be more famous and New York says make more money and Austin seems to be saying be creative and weird. They're happy we're here too.

That's what's really cool. It's like they've embraced it because, you know, a scene moved into a city where there's 15 world-class comedians that live here now that didn't live here three years ago. Was Ron White the first? Yes. Yeah. Ron White's a guy that means nothing in the UK. Like, he's not famous in the UK.

I can't see why. He's so good. He's so good. And he's retired except for my club. So he's at the club all the time. Have you got Polaroids of him? No, he loves me. That poor man's trying to retire and you keep on dragging him back.

He doesn't really want to retire. He just wants to not travel anymore. And I said, Ron, you don't have to travel. You can get a new crowd every night of the week. Anytime you want, you can go up. And so he'll just text me, you know, hey, you tonight i'm like fuck yeah you coming he's like fuck yeah and then he comes down and he's doing acid and it's fucking he's an animal he's so fun and he's so good and it's like for him it's taken all the negativity out of stand-up comedy which is the travel and

the weariness he just leaves his house, drives 15 minutes. He's at the club, does a set, hangs out. We all party and laugh and have fun. And then he leaves. And so he's there three, four nights a week sometimes. That's fantastic. Oh, it's so much fun. I like the travel. I've got to say, I like everything about... I think that thing when you have a job, when you're living your dream, you're doing what you want to do in life. I think it's on you to enjoy all of it.

So the airport lounges and the delays and the early mornings or whatever, the flights, the whole thing, you have to embrace it all. Good for you. I'm glad you take that perspective. That's very healthy. Yeah, that's what everybody should take. But it's that thing, isn't it, that thing in life. Disposition is more important than position. Yes.

How you are in your head. We all know billionaires that are miserable. Yes. And people sweeping the streets very happy. Yes. And it's that thing of, like, disposition. And it seems to be, I know it's trite, but it seems to be the thing is gratitude. Yes.

Gratitude is the cure for resentment. Yes. And there's so much resentment around. It's such a maligned word because it gets attached to woo-woo bullshit and people wear wooden beads and, you know, it gets attached to posing, you know, but I think it's real. I think gratitude as well is like, people imagine it's about the thing, not the, like the environment is the thing we should be grateful for. Like that we live in this time. You know that Steven Pinker Enlightenment Now book

where you sort of go, well, now. Yeah. Now, I had a hot shower this morning. No one, before 1930, no one had had one. Right. People didn't know what hot showers were. They washed once a week in cold water. Good luck, everyone.

Everyone smelled disgusting. Like the world that we live in now is so fucking great. Yeah. We just don't appreciate it because we're so accustomed to it. Well, it's that, um, what do they call that?

It's, um, the hedonic treadmill. You get used to the good things really quickly. Yes. And so you're searching for more, but you look around, it's just,

it's an extraordinary, well, the idea that like comedy is a thing at the moment. Imagine if we'd been born in the 1940s. Well, the idea that like comedy is a thing at the moment. Imagine if we'd been born in the 1940s. Well, you're not really. We don't have that. I guess we could have gone on before the band and said something, but it wasn't quite like the people that start. Who were the first people in America? Lenny Bruce. Lenny Bruce. But he was really the first to do our style of comedy. Yeah. But it was our style of comedy where he's just talking about life.

Everybody before that was like, two Jews walked into a bar. They buy it. You know, it was like set up punchline. I mean, it's very old timey really in a sense because I do jokes. So they stand and fall. It's very high wire.

It's either this is, it's binary. This is funny or not. There's no story behind it that you can, I mean, sometimes I do longer form, but really it's quite like old school jokes. But yeah, Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, like people that started playing theaters and clubs and like to draw a crowd. So you weren't just. And then Pryor was the first one to really do it well. I never think Dick Gregory gets enough.

He doesn't. People don't talk about people don't talk about what he did and part of the struggle and he's incredible as a figure well you know he's also the one

that exposed the Kennedy assassination no I didn't know that Dick Gregory went on the Geraldo Rivera show 12 years after Kennedy

was assassinated who had conspiracy theories 35 minutes in who had I have it fucking every 20 minutes wait a second so hang on so cause I know I know he was minutes. Wait a second. It pops up like magic.

So hang on. Because I know he was at a big part in the civil rights movement. Yes. And was incredibly brave. He's kind of to a great documentary, like a proper Judd Apatow, three hour, Dick Gregory, here's everything you need to know documentary. I would love that. Yeah.

I would love a documentary on him as well. We've sang his praises many, many times. Showtime put one out two years ago. Oh, they did. Oh, the one and only Dick Gregory, 2021. Wait a second. Showtime have a time machine and they used it to steal this idea? I think so.

Motherfuckers. He was fantastic during the Vietnam War. He was fantastic during the Civil Rights Movement. Get back to the Kennedy thing. So he went on the Geraldo Rivera show in 1975. And so this is 12- How old is Geraldo? He's old as fuck.

Yeah. But he looked good back then. He looks pretty fucking good now. So Dick Gregory went on, and he went on with the Zapruder film. And it was the first time the Zapruder film was ever exposed to the public. So Geraldo Rivera played the Zapruder film and it was the first time the Zapruder film was ever exposed to the public. So Geraldo Rivera played the Zapruder film and you see Kennedy grabbing his neck where he got shot from the front. And Dick Gregory brought it on? Yes, Dick Gregory brought the film to Geraldo and played it. And our next guest is a comedian for a bit of light relief. He's going to show you

the Zapruder film. How many concert gigs did you do? How many appearances? I don't know exactly what kind of video he talks about it because it's a long, it's a 20-minute video. Okay. Well, screw ahead. So he shows the video of Kennedy being shot and then he goes,

and I'm going to be at the Laugh Factory in Miami Beach on Thursday. Come see me. The net effect of that is to make more people watch it. Well, I'm telling you right straight out that if you are at all sensitive, if you're at all queasy, then don't watch this film. Just put on the late night movie,

because this is very heavy. It's the film shot by the Dallas dress manufacturer Abraham Zapruder, and it's the execution shot by the Dallas dress manufacturer, Abraham Zapruder, and it's the execution of President Kennedy. And Bob and Dick, would you please narrate what we're seeing as we show this film? This is commercial footage leading into Dealey Plaza. This is the car on Main Street. So this film was taken by actual newsmen. This was spliced together with the Abraham Zapruder film. Yes. All right, so this is the beginning of the motorcade.

What you're seeing now is in slow motion so that you can grasp what is happening. This is a film taken by Marie Muchmore that leads into the Zapruder film. It's for time continuity. The president is waving to the crowd here. And Jacqueline Kennedy, of course, is sitting alongside him in the open car. Right. This is from Orville Nix's film. This is originally eight millimeter footage. And they're heading now toward Elm Street. They're on Houston Street now. They're going to make a left-hand turn. It's on the corner where they're going to make the turn there that the book depository was. Now, this is the Zapruder film.

Okay, so the cars are coming along now into D.B. Plaza? Yes. These are the lead motorcycles of the motorcade. All right. Now, with the president and Mrs. Kennedy is also Governor Connolly. Right. Now, before he goes behind the sign, the president is waving to the crowd. When he comes out from behind the sign, he is shot. Then Governor Connolly is shot. He's already been hit. He's already been hit.

And now... At the bottom of the screen, the head shot. That's the shot that blew up his head. It's the most horrifying thing I've ever seen in the movie. It is. I mean, it's genuinely shocking watching it now, isn't it? Yes, it's genuinely shocking. But it was the first time people saw that his head moves back and to the left, indicating a shot from the front. And that fell against the narrative that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

There was a ton of eyewitnesses that said that they heard gunshots from the grassy knoll. And then there was also this ridiculous magic bullet that they had to attribute to Lee Harvey Oswald's gun because it had hit their one bullet had hit an underpass and ricocheted and hit a person. So they knew that one of the bullets that got shot missed Kennedy, hit the underpass, hit a curb and ricocheted and hit this guy and he got brought to the hospital. So how on earth do we not have an answer to this now? Well, it seems they keep hiding the data. They keep they won't release it in 2017. They were supposed to they were due to release it. They wouldn't release it then. It was again, I believe in 2021, they were supposed to

release it. It's very it's a very odd. I mean, conspiracy theories are like that. They're sort of fascinating because they're simple solutions to complex problems. So a lot of them I kind of go, well, I'm not sure whether there's any validity in that. It just seems like an easy solution to this thing which is incredibly nuanced and complex. But the Kennedy thing, you go, well, how – it's the president got shot. How could they have covered this? 1963. There was I mean, you had there was no independent journalism.

There was no YouTube. There was no online commentators that weren't captured by a system. They weren't a part of an enormous structure like The New York Times or the Washington Post or whatever the fuck it was. And the Zapruder film, again, had been archived for 13 years before it was, or 12 years. 12 or 13? I didn't realize that. I kind of, I assumed, stupidly, that he got shot and the film came out the next week. No, no, it didn't.

12 years. Yeah, that, I believe, was it 75 that it came out? I remember reading into this, though, it was like the, right, sorry didn't. 12 years. Yeah, that, I believe, was it 75 that it came out? I remember reading into this, though. It was like the frame, like frame 313 or something like that, that hadn't been seen. They did have it as a Pruder film, and they posted a lot of it in screenshots in Life. In Life magazine, because Life magazine owned it. But they left some of it out. And then somehow or another, Dick Gregory acquired it, and that was around 75. And that's when he aired it on television.

And when he aired it on television, it just opened up everyone's eyes. They're like, well, anyone who'd ever seen anything get shot knows that when you get hit with something from the back, you don't go back towards the shot. The impact throws the head back. You see the spray of the bullets

and it appears he's getting hit multiple times from multiple angles what's your what's your feeling on it i mean you've looked into it you're a big conspiracy guy but what who do you think orchestrated jfk's that's a good question i mean tucker carlson came out on television and said the cia killed kennedy and i think that's probably one of the reasons why he could remove from fox um i don't know who did it i really would would be talking on my ass. I'm amazed it hasn't been like a deathbed confession or something. Because, I mean, conspiracies more broadly, you kind of go, well, it involves cognitive dissonance.

Wasn't there a deathbed confession from E. Howard Hunt? I would say there was something. Yeah, I think it was E. Howard Hunt. Okay. Who was one of the people that was supposedly on the grassy knoll. Woody Harrelson's father was supposed to be involved in this, too. He was apparently a hitman. There was, according to the lore, the last confessions of E. Howard Hunt, the ultimate

keeper of secrets regarding who killed JFK. That's how you keep a secret, a pipe. I think on his deathbed, he said that he was involved in the conspiracy to kill the president. I don't know who was involved. I mean, I think it was probably a bunch of people. There was a lot of people that wanted Kennedy out of there. I mean, he wanted some pretty radical changes. He wanted to disband the intelligence agencies.

He thought that secrecy was abhorrent. And he, you know, talked about it openly in this one speech that he gave about secret societies. Well, it's odd, that thing, for me. I mean, I'm kind of thinking about maybe doing a bit about this, about saying, look, because it involves two thoughts. You've got to believe the government are – there's a deep state that is sort of geniuses and can cover these things up and can fake a moon landing. And also the government are idiots. They can't organize anything. Well, it's different. What I want to do – You can't say the government, right? also the government are idiots. They can't organize anything. Well, it's different.

What I want to do. You can't say the government, right? Because the government is a blanket. That's like saying drugs. Drugs are bad. Well, I'm drinking coffee. It's not bad. Everybody drinks coffee.

For that thing of like going, what we need is some of those guys from the deep state over here for a week to deal with the regular shit. We need someone on transit duties. We need someone from the deep state to look at hospitals. Well, in a lot of ways, those are more complex issues than assassinating someone and covering it up. Because back then, again, there's... It's not like information today where people have, like,

everyone has a cell phone. Like, if the Kennedy assassination happened today, there would be footage from 100 different angles. Yes. There'd be so many people there and we would. It's amazing how much there is footage. It is amazing. But it was just because he was so important.

And back then, you know, there were a few people that were enthusiasts that had their own personal video cameras. And the thing with the thing, I guess, with with conspiracy is it's some of it's true. Like the biggest conspiracy, I think, probably of lifetime, was pedophilia in the Catholic church. Yeah. I remember that being talked about when I was a kid. Well, how about in the UK? My mother was crazy. Jimmy Savile.

Just hiding in plain sight. How crazy is that? It's really crazy. And that guy looks like a pedophile. Yeah. I mean, he looked like such a fucking creep. Here's the story I heard on Jimmy Savile, which is interesting.

He had a big show on TV called Jim will fix it, which was him making dreams come true for kids or whatever. They'd write in with a wish and he'd make them come true. But he had that nickname before, so he was kind of a fixer. You know he invented the turntable, the two record players together, that turntable? Oh, like for a DJ? For a DJ. He invented the dual turntable. Yeah.

I mean... Not all bad. Pretty much all bad. 99.9% bad. Real bad. Yeah. What was my joke about him? It's a very British joke, but Jimmy Salvo,

the only man in human history to have fucked more miners than Thatcher. Oh. That requires quite a lot of information about mining, Margaret Thatcher, what she did to the miners, and also, ah, it's a long way to go. It's a good joke, though.

But the, yeah, no, he was hiding in plain sight and was part of the establishment. Yeah. But I think that thing of like going, the story I was told was he was kind of connected very high up because of what he did in terms of fixing things. Like so the guy that are you familiar with the Profumo affair? No.

So it was the idea that the minister for I think the Ministry of Defense was having it. He was he was having an affair with a lady who was also Christine Keeler, who was also having an affair with a Russian agent. who was also having an affair with a Russian agent. Oh. And she had been procured by this other guy who then got assassinated. Oh. Or they think got assassinated. And so I think the story I heard was Jimmy Savile had a similar role for procuring certain things for certain people.

So I wonder what he was doing for the police or for the Secret Service that gave him – what gave him right that that ability that immunity total well that's what's the really scary idea is that there's a ring of people that are pedophiles that's what terrifies people that there's a ring of powerful people that that's the you know if you want to go full q anon tinfoil hat, that's what a lot of people believe. But I think that is like – I presume Jimmy Salvo was acting alone. I mean I presume that's – But why?

But why do you presume he was acting alone? I don't know. I mean what if other people were also involved? What if other people were also doing the same thing? Oh, it's a terrifying thing. I mean there's a similar case in America with Sandusky, you know, who, Jerry Sandusky, he was the coach that did a lot of things with kids and worked with kids, and everybody had this image that he was this great guy, when it turns out, the entire time, he had

been molesting kids. It's pretty horrific, isn't it? Yeah, it's horrific, but that's often the role they play. The role they play as... Well, they have to get to get themselves ready where they're close to yes yes which is like boy scout masters and priests which is you know it's a terrible thing because it's something like the scouts which is very good for kids to go and play together and learn those things and those skills it's a great organization and yet that's absolutely ruined it that's the first thing you think of now yes when you think of theouts. Well, the Catholic church is the greatest

example of that, right? I mean, you cannot say Catholic priest without someone thinking pedophile. There's no other occupation on earth that has such a connection to pedophilia. Yeah. And so someone was talking to me about the, the history of the Catholic Church and what happened. And the idea of the thing that turned the Catholic Church bad was the plague. Really? So the plague hit in the Middle Ages. And before then, the priest was the smartest guy you'd ever met. Smartest guy in the town became a priest. Could read Latin.

This guy could read. This guy can read. There's just shapes on a page to us. But like had access to books, was reading, was the most erudite, brilliant guy. The bishop was even smarter than that.

The Pope was a genius. Great. So the plague happens and the plague wipes out. I think it's a third of the European population, but it might have been more than that. And it wiped out a third

of regular people, but it wiped out 90% of priests because priests had to give last rites. So they were around the plague than that and it wiped out a third of regular people but it wiped out 90 of priests because priests had to give last rites so they were around the plague more than regular people i need the last rites i'm dying okay then he dies right so the barrier to entry for getting into the priesthood went from you've got to be great to ah you seem to have all your own teeth and you can string a sentence together, you'll be great.

So all of that stuff that comes after, downstream of that, like the plenary indulgences, this thing where you could buy your way into heaven in the Middle Ages, you could sort of pay someone to go, yeah, you can make sure I'm okay when I get there, though. That kind of nonsense came along afterwards when it had all kind of come down. Yeah. The corruption and the... Interesting. Yeah.

I had heard that it was connected to celibacy and that initially there was no celibacy clause. They weren't supposed to be celibate. No, that came in the Middle Ages. So it was that thing of they wanted to be more like Christ, who was celibate. And so they went, well, I'm going to be, you know, one priest said, well, I'm going to be more like him, live like Christ. I'm going to be celibate, not have a wife. And then that kind of took off as an idea.

That's interesting because what I had heard was that they were banging all the women because the priests were rock stars. I mean, if you have a community where the priest is literally connected to God and he's a biological male and he's horny and these women worship them and came to them for... he's a biological male. And he's horny. And these women worshiped him. And it came to them for... It's the original show business.

Yes. I mean, if we were doing... If we were who we are in the 13th century, 100% priests. Or gestures. Sorry, I can get up in front of these people and talk to them for an hour a week. Right.

Done. Right. Yes, put me down for one of those. Right. And they'd seek guidance from you. You'd get all these accolades. And apparently they were allowed to have sex with women and they were fucking everybody. Yeah.

Just like rock stars because they were probably the most popular people in the town. The other thing that ties, that's very interesting. The other thing that ties it to, like there's often been, and it's a very unpleasant thing, but there's often been a conflation between homosexuality and pedophilia, which so it's just fucking nonsense right it's nonsense it's nonsense but it keeps on kind of rearing its head in a weird way but there is something with the catholic church where it's hard to remember how vilified gay guys were a generation ago let alone two generations ago. Yeah, well, very recently in the 90s. It's crazy, but it's true. So there's a weird thing where,

okay, so let's say you're a gay guy in, I don't know, 1890. You knew you were gay when you were 14 or whatever. Like everyone else is getting married and going off and you go, I'm a gay guy. The priesthood was a smart move because you went, well, I don't have to get married.

And I know I'm not about that. So I'll join the priesthood. So you join the priesthood. You're a gay guy. There were other gay guys that had the idea. Great. Right. Now, here's the weird thing.

Pedophilia was the same level sin in the eyes of the church at that level. So one covered for the other. It it was all you were all damned and going to hell it was all terrible which is obviously some fucking nonsense but yeah yeah well there's also there's a different attitude towards uh same-sex uh minors and adults that is with some people in the gay community in In fact, there was a law that they were trying to pass in California, where they were saying that the age of consent being 18 was in somehow or another, anti LBGTQ. Because some Yeah, because some young men sought mentors in older gay men, some young men who were gay.

I mean, that sounds like something. Wasn't there, was it Klein? Is that what his name? There's a politician in California that was very controversial because he was promoting this. Very controversial because he's promoting pedophilia. Yeah, that's going to be controversial. Well, I think his idea was like 16 and 17-year-old boys

and that that should be okay, which is, you know, it gets very sketchy. That sounds – also, let's wind it back. Here's something that we could do, right? Here's something we could start a campaign for. Those laws about, you know, the age of consent in the UK is 16. Yeah. But those laws should be for 17 and 18-year-old boys. Yes.

They shouldn't apply to us. Right. It shouldn't apply to us. Right. Shouldn't apply to a 55 year old man. So Romeo and Juliet. No, I think they have it in New York. They have it in certain states where you go, yeah, that's the age of consent is 16 for her. And that guy who's 17 and it's her boyfriend and they've come up at school together. That makes sense.

And then at 18, maybe. Okay. Go do whatever you're going to do. I remember when I was 18 years old, when I turned 18, my girlfriend was a year younger than me and she was 17. And I was terrified that I was going to go to jail because I was a legal adult and she was still a child. Right. Even though we started dating when I was 16 or I was, I was, yeah, no, I was 17 and she was 16. And then when I turned 18, I was like, oh my God, like, could I get in jail for this? I remember

thinking that, like, is this illegal? Because it kind of technically is. I think if you're dating a girl like that, I mean, this is 1985. So Gavin Newsom signed a law that could give judges a say on whether to list someone as a sex offender for having oral or anal sex with a minor. The bill would expand discretion currently granted judges in statutory rape charges as promoted by bringing fairness under the law to LBGTQ defendants. The current law, in place for decades, permits judges to decide whether a man should be placed on California's sex offender registry if he had voluntary intercourse with someone from 14 to 17 years old and was no more than 10 years older than the person. Right. I don't want to come to your show and be all controversial,

but I think, broadly speaking, don't be a pedophile. Right. I think that's a good thing to say. But that discretion, it says, only applied to a man who had vaginal intercourse. The new law changes permits, change, the new change, rather, permits judges to use the same discretion when the case involves voluntary oral or anal sex. The measure won't apply when a minor is under 14, when the gap is larger than 10 years, or when either party says the sex wasn't consensual. The law does not change the age of consent in California,

which is 18. Adults caught having sex with minors will still face statutory rape charges. Yeah, Scott Wiener, that's the guy. San Francisco Democrat. Great name for the guy. Yeah. Isn't it funny how those Wiener guys keep getting in trouble? Anthony Wiener, Scott Wiener. that's the guy. San Francisco Democrat. Great name. Yeah. Isn't it funny how those Wiener guys keep getting in trouble?

Anthony Wiener, Scott Wiener. Nominative determinism. It's a thing. It's like the simulation theory. It's like the universe is playing little jokes on you. Yeah. But this guy, like, there's photos of this guy at gay pride parades, like, wearing a dog collar. Like, you know, he's.

I mean, that's. I got zero problem with that. I got a problem with him saying... Let's just quote on it. I think the article continued. The law ends discrimination by treating LBGTQ young people the exact same way that straight young people have been treated since 1944, Wiener said in a statement, adding, today California took yet another step towards equitable society.

So what that seems to me is like there was a law already in place giving judges discretion, but it was only for vaginal sex. And he thought that it should apply to oral and anal sex. It seems like the law is the issue, right? Because 10 years old, like if someone's 26, another person's 16 or 15 and 25, that's crazy. There's a reason why it's 18. Like 18 is like reasonable. And I think you have to give people agency at some point. Yeah.

At some point you have to give people agency and go, look, you're allowed to make your own decisions now. Do as you please. Yes. I mean, you are certainly a young person at 18, but if you're a young man at 18 and you decide to have sex with a man who's 30 years old,

like that's completely reasonable. I think it's also, you know, try telling an 18 year old they're not. Right. I mean, so we're sure I wonder in the think it's also, you know, try telling an 18-year-old they're not. Right. I mean, so I wonder in the future because the mind, your brain isn't fully developed. I think it's 25. Well, 25 is the age your frontal cortex is fully formed, I believe, as a male.

Do you think? I think for females, like mentally mature earlier than men too. I wonder what age it is. They're generally smarter than men. I wonder in a generation's time, will everyone go, sorry, you were fucking a 21-year-old. I wonder, will it ever go the other way? That seems silly.

That seems silly, especially men and women. I mean, if it's a 21-year-old man, a 30-year-old woman has sex with you, she's going to be brought up on charges. That's insane. Yeah. You had that great bit about that. Yeah said there's no sexual equality when it comes to child molesting yeah i said because a grown man can molest a 16 year old girl but a grown woman can't really molest a 16 year old boy she can only let him fuck her like what's the worst thing that happened you found out about something awesome early? Like, poor Billy got his dick sucked by the hot teacher.

He's never going to recover. It's very good. Thank you. And we're not denigrating the suffering of men that have been molested. No, no, no, no, no. But it's always like- Dimitri Martin had a great line on that as well. He said something about some guy that fucked his teacher, and Dimitri said, yeah, he died.

He got high-fived to death. I think that was Zach Galifianakis. Was that Zach? I think so. I think it's Dimitri. You might be right. I'll double down. I think that was Zach Galifianakis. Was that Zach? I think so. I think it's Dimitri. You might be right. I'll double-dash. I mean, those guys are both phenomenal writers.

I think it might have been Galifianakis. But either way, great joke. But it's high-five to death. But it's a difference. There's a difference. And it's also the difference in how we... It's unfortunate, but there's a prejudice about women having sex

versus men having sex that with a woman is being taken advantage of by the man like that they don't have agency whereas the man is the pursuer and the predator and so there's there's an aspect of that that goes along with it you know that a male like we we don't think of a 16 year old boy having sex with a hot 30 year old woman as like that boy being molested we just don't yeah well that's i suppose you know increasingly you know we will i haven't given it a lot of thought but it's it does strike me that that thing of like agency and being 18 and being a grown up in society. Yeah. I suppose the problem is that thing.

What's that book? Is it Jonathan Haidt? The Coddling of the American Mind. That idea of going, if there's no freedom for kids anymore, like you're not allowed to go and play on your own. You're not allowed to leave the house and mess around. And, you know, the only freedom you have now as a kid is online so you're not allowed to go and experience that thing of being out in the world in danger yeah danger like

knowing what's what's safe and what's not safe and having experiences with people that are sketchy so then if you don't get any of that yeah until you're 18 and then suddenly you get all of that but you've not been drip fed it right like that thing of, I know what your childhood was like. We were pretty, you know, grew up in Slough, quite a sort of working class to the west of London. And we were a nice little bit. And we would go out on bikes in the morning and you would come back for your dinner in the evening. You would just be out for the day. I don't think. Yeah, my childhood was very similar.

I don't know if that exists. No, that's like almost like child abuse it's almost like you know neglecting your parental duties just let your kid just roam out of the house and come back at dinner 14 year olds used to be babysitters now 14 year olds need babysitters yes and I don't think anything's changed about humanity so I think the idea that you go you have agency at 18 but like we we like it goes from 0 to 60 yes in one day right that's good and like the drinking age is 21 here is 18 at home but you go well actually it kind of everyone assumes in the uk you're going to drink a little bit when you're 14 in the park with your friends and it's a little bit of that the different levels of experience of

people that are 16 and 17 years old like when I was in high school, the first girlfriend that I had, she had a single mom. And she was essentially on her own and left to roam around from the time she was very young. And she had been going to concerts when she was 12 and 13 years old. And she had already had sex before I had. She was a year younger than me. And when we met, I was a virgin and she wasn't. And so it was, you know, she was more worldly

and mature than I was. She knew how to go to concerts. She knew how to get backstage and meet people. The idea that we're saying, you know, an age, like 18, every 18 year, oh, that's just a solid state. Everyone's the same. Everyone's different. Everyone comes to it from a very different perspective. People mature at different speeds. It's very. I mean, everyone comes to it from a very different perspective. Sure.

People mature at different speeds. It's very, I mean, there'll be young people listening to this as well. It's that thing where it seems like such a race when you're young. Yes. To kind of, to get there, to do everything. To be grown up. And you feel like you need to make all the decisions. Yeah.

When you're 19. Okay, which college degree? What am I going to do? Yes. What am I going to? It's a panic. Well, that's what's so predatory about to do with my life? It's a panic. Well, that's what's so predatory about America because that's when student loans come in

and you get shackled up with these student loans that you can never get out of debt with. Student loans in America, I don't know how you have it in the UK. You have free education, right? No, we used to have free education. So when I went to college, it was free. You had to pay for your kind of bed and board and it was free. I went to university. I got a free education. It feels ridiculous that we let that go. And maybe it's like, okay, so if it's too expensive,

then I can see an argument to say, well, on academic merit, we cut the number of places until we can afford for it to be free yeah it's free for free for everyone well it certainly benefits the greater good of society have more people educated and what what greater thing to spend tax dollars on then to educate the population it's fantastic how could you make an argument against it and with the predatory loans in America the way it works is like say if you start a business and you take out a big loan to start a business and your business fails and you're, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, you can go bankrupt and then you're absolved of that debt.

If you get a student loan, you are never absolved of that debt. You must pay that debt. And the interest keeps increasing over time. You know what I'm hearing here? What? We need to get into the student debt business. This feels like this- It sounds like you can't lose. You think you're making money in comedy? On podcasts? Please. The real money is in student debt.

And it's pushed on people because everybody feels like they have to go to college or they're going to be a loser. And there's people right now in America that are getting social security money and their social security money is getting docked because they owe student loans. So you're at the end of your life. Someone made a point recently about a college degree now is a luxury good. It's like a Louis Vuitton handbag. So you get the luxury good, but what can you do with it? What's the benefit? Well, it really depends on the degree, right? Yeah. Some things like your medical degree. Yeah, you need a degree.

Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if it's just an arts degree. Gender studies. Then you go, well, what are you going to do with that degree? Like, the map is not the territory. Yeah. Who would you rather employ?

You know, someone with an MBA or someone who's got two failed startups? Failed startups, please. You know, someone that's been in the trenches and tried it and done it. You know, so I think that thing of, I don't know what advice you would give an 18 year old today, but it would really depend upon what they want to do and what I mean, I'm the worst person to give that advice because I knew very, because of my childhood and the way I grew up, very unstable, divorced parents, stepdad, moved to a new place all the time. I was terrified of rigidity.

I was terrified of a job. I really felt like a loser because I felt like all these people can keep jobs. Why do I hate them so much? Because it's interesting. Why do I hate them so much? Because it's interesting. What I see in you, and I don't know you that well personally, but I see your work. And the thing flowing through it is discipline.

Discipline and freedom seem to be the two things. And obviously those things have been separated in our minds. Discipline and freedom are not the same. They're exactly the same. Discipline gives you freedom. Yeah, that's Jocko Willink. That's what he says. Discipline equals freedom. Exactly right. so that idea of going well you it's martial arts yeah all discipline it's stand-up which I know is all discipline it's all it

everyone's got ideas everyone talks a good game it's in the execution yeah it's in doing it so that thing of like going couldn't hold down the job but I mean you're pretty good at showing up to stuff well it was I realized later that it was just I wasn't interested in those things. And what I was terrified of is being forced to do something that I wasn't interested forever. And I saw so many people that they would just wait until they got home every night and just get drunk and then do it all over again in the morning.

And then their bodies were deteriorating and they all wound up getting cancer and getting sick and they all died young. It was sad and depressing and well it's i mean it's it's work to live as opposed to live to work yes so your thing is you know it's it's work is the fun stuff it's all the stuff that you're passionate about you try and make that your career that's very good advice for anyone that's young listening to this like Like, what are you interested in? What do you pay attention to?

Do that. Do that. What, you know, because that 10,000 hours thing, it slightly loses the what could you stand to do for 10,000 hours? 10,000 hours is the minimum. I don't think there's any mastery in 10,000 hours. Right. But I think there's. You become a professional at 10,000 hours.

Yeah. hours right but i think you become a professional at 10 000 hours yeah well with me i just i when i got into martial arts then i realized like oh i'm not lazy i'm just not interested in those other things and then when i got into martial arts i was extremely disciplined like fanatically like i i trained every day i literally lived at the gym but But you taught this is you preaching to the choir. You can't beat your environment. No. And that thing of like finding your tribe, finding your thing. So, yeah, a lot of people that are lost just haven't found their tribe, their thing. Well, it's hard if you haven't found it yet because you kind of go, well, it's easy for you to say you found it.

I was also not around people that were following their passions. Everyone that I was around was working. You know, we lived in a blue collar community and it was surrounded by a white collar community. And there's people that had all worked really hard, got a very good education and got a respectable job either as a doctor or a lawyer, an accountant or whatever. And they had a wonderful home and they worked well. But I looked at them as like these deteriorating vessels of flesh that were barely getting by in the world. And I didn't want to do what they were doing. And I didn't know until I got into martial arts that there were people that were doing different things.

And that they were surviving and thriving, teaching something that they loved. And so that was my path. My path was competition and teaching. It's interesting, the teaching thing. Because I think of your stand-up career. You go, well, you've done what you've done in stand-up. And now you're building a club. And, you know, you've lowered a rope.

And you're pulling people up. Well, it was also I learned how to talk in front of people. Because I was painfully shy and socially awkward as a kid. Like, I would get, I'd have, have like anxiety going to a bank teller, like that I was going to have to talk to the bank teller. I remember that, like, what is wrong with me? I remember being like 16 years old, having to deposit a check and just being so nervous getting up to the teller.

Yeah. I don't think that's you. I think that's being 16. Yeah, I think, yeah. I think being a teenager is about being slightly uncomfortable in your own skin and deciding who you're going to be. I worry for the future generations coming up now because of Facebook. Because something like Facebook connects you to your past in a way that we don't have.

So I reinvented myself a couple of times. Yes, me too. Like I was 16 and I moved schools. And it seems like a trivial thing to move school from one grammar school to another grammar school. Kind of who cares? But it just allowed me to kind of go, oh, I didn't really behave that well at that school. I kind of messed around. Yes.

I was a ne'er-do-well. And then I got to the new one and went, I think I might go to Cambridge. I think I might be really academic. Right. And everyone went, okay. Right. Okay, yeah. Be that guy. No, that's Jimmy. He Everyone went, okay. Right. Okay, yeah, you can be that guy. No, that's Jimmy.

He's a fucking loser. Yeah. Right, yeah. When I would go back to my town that I grew up in later in life, if I'd visit, I would get nervous. And when I'd go near my high school, I'd feel terrible. I used to have nightmares that I'd have to go back to school. I didn't really graduate, and I'd have to go back.

Isn't that a lovely feeling in stand-up? I was a couple of years in, and I realized, I'm never going to need my resume again. It's done. No one's ever going to care about my exam results again. It's a very freeing thing to go. Sure. That was great, but none of that matters anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I wasn't interested in academic things at all. I just, I read a lot, but everything I read was fiction. And I would only read because I was on the train getting to the Taekwondo school. I found I used to read fiction voraciously. And when I started doing comedy, I stopped. I didn't need the stories anymore. Interesting. Now I read nonfiction voraciously, but I like nonfiction, but I don't feel didn't need the stories anymore. Interesting. Now I read nonfiction voraciously, but I like nonfiction, but I don't feel like I need the stories because I'm doing something

creative. I think it was that part of me that wanted that. It's like, I've got an outlet now. I found the outlet, which is, you know, God, you'd love that for everyone, wouldn't you? I would love that for everyone. I would love it for everyone to be able to do something that excites them, whether it's making tables or knives or you know building houses like whatever the thing is that really gets you and it's unfortunately a lot of people don't find that yeah yeah well it is hard to find i mean it's a very it's a life's journey there's two great adventures in life one is you know finding what you want to do and the second is doing it and tragically most people don't get to do either.

Right. You want that for everyone. Especially if you get captured early, and that's what I was talking about with the student loan thing. You get trapped in debt, and then you're on this path to a career, and then along the way, someone says, hey, have you ever thought about doing comedy? And you're like, oh, my God, I'm so tired when I get out of here.

I just want to go have a meal and go to sleep. And you're thinking about finding a woman and settle down and having kids. I used to work for a big oil company. Oh, really? When I was in my mid-20s, I worked for Shell Oil. I was in marketing for Shell. And I very nearly bought a place. I very nearly bought a flat.

And that thing of the things you own end up owning you. Oh, yeah. I think I'd still be there. And it would have been a good life. I mean, not this life, but it would have been good. But that thing of the good is the enemy of the best. I think people now, 18 to 21, going, you should be taking risks, big risks, big swings. You should also be surrounded by people that are also doing the same so you can

learn from each other if you're a lone person on an island out there taking risks it's very difficult to assess whether or not you're on the right path or whether or not it's viable yeah one of the beautiful things about stand-up and one of the things i love about the club is all these young risk takers around people that are the same and that are maybe 10 years ahead of them and we talk all the time you know i ask them like you're doing gigs like you're doing the road like what's going on how you doing like are you working on new stuff it's always the thing how often do you write i always think that thing of going to young comics uh how many shows it's like because it's like airline pilots we're like airline pilots it's not really about how many years you've been doing comedy right it's about

it's you know when you talk to an airline pilot they tell you how many hours they got in the sky yeah and i feel like i was on stage how many shows you done yes that's the thing i'm like 250 on the year yeah and i feel like okay i mean i'm in a groove yes like it's that thing of like your match fit for this thing one of the things that we found in la um is that like when when i was doing the comedy store and the improv and the ice house and going back and forth and doing, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then I go on the road Friday and Saturday, you get this groove where you just kind of know how to make something funny. And so it's easier to create new material as well. You get this, you get, you hit this vibration. And then if I had to take time off, that's one of the things that I found that was terrifying

during COVID is I took like four months off, you know, because everything was shut down. And then I came to Texas to do shows. I first did the Houston Improv and that was in July. So March, everything was shut down in July, only Texas and a couple other places were allowing you to do shows. And I came out here to do shows. And I had to listen to recordings. Sorry, four months? Yeah.

Cry me a river. We did about a year and a half in the UK. Oh, and in the United States, most places did that. In New York, you had to be vaccinated to go to the clubs. That was like a year later. Los Angeles was a year and a half. You know the gratitude here? The gratitude is it brought you to Austin. Yes. It brought you to this place.

You set up your own club. You've got this community around you. People have come out with you. It feels like it's a, you know, the silver lining on that terrible time. Well, it wasn't a terrible time. It was a time of change and it was also a time of realization that Oh my God, the power went out.

I guess whoever, that Jimmy Savile guy's got more power than you fucking think. Are you still recording? No. It seems like the mics are still on. Yeah. Do we hit a circuit breaker or something? Everything except for my main audio is still recording. So the video is still recording?

Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Exciting. What should we do here? This is fun. Let's do this. Let's pick five. What should we do here? This is fun. Let's do this. Pick five.

What do you think it is? Huh? You think it's Circuit Breakers? I think it's the Deep State. Oh, they're back. We're back. Yeah. I think the Deep State are on to us.

You guys are talking too much shit. Yeah. I don't like what you said about the Kennedy assassination. Oh, I tell you what. The other thing I was going to say about- Reset it? Okay. Should we pause?

Pause? No, I mean, I'm trying- Are we recording or not? I can fix it. We can have a conversation even if we're not recording it. You. Should we pause? Pause? No, I mean, I'm trying. Are we recording or not? I can fix it. We can have a conversation even if we're not recording it. You know that, right? Maybe I'll take a pee. Shall I take a pee?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's take a pee and we'll figure it out. Sounds good. This is fun, man. It's very fun. What are we chatting about? I don't remember. Before the...

I don't remember. People following their dreams, how difficult it is. It is hard. Et cetera, et cetera. Taking risks. Yeah, it is. It's like, it's also, it's so confusing as a young person where the path is not clearly laid out

and you don't know what choice to make and one choice could be disastrous, one choice could be advantageous. Well, I think as well, those things of like, there's certain professions, and I hope comedy in a generation becomes like being a musician. You can see what to do.

But it's not like being a doctor now. It's a very hard thing to do to be a doctor. Yeah. But you always know what the next step is. And with being a professional comedian, it's sometimes very difficult

to know how to get that first rung of the ladder. Yes. But taking the risk, taking a shot, it's that thing of like taking risks on things that are reversible as opposed to irreversible. Yes. But taking the risk, taking a shot, it's that thing of like making kind of taking risks on things that are reversible as opposed to irreversible. Yes. Having a kid,

irreversible decision. If you have a kid, it's a big commitment. That's forever. Great. There's lots of things people worry about, like giving up their job and you go, yeah, just give it a job. Yeah. So terrified that someone else is going to get ahead of them. There's other folks that are in the same position and you're going to take two years off and come back. And they'll be your boss now. Well, that thing, I wish I'd heard it earlier in life. That thing of like you're only in competition with you last year. That thing of like I'm trying to work on this thing at the moment.

I was chatting to my friend Chris Williamson who does that. I love Chris. He's amazing. We were chatting about like what's the – I think there might be a book idea in this. Like I'm trying to live for me in 24 hours time. amazing um we're chatting about like what's the i think there might be a book idea in this like i'm trying to live for me in 24 hours time i'm trying to do things today that i'll be happy i did tomorrow it's that that very simplistic short time scale like living for the future self yeah like you can give yourself gifts in the future so i'm now like trying to do a thing like just

super simple trying to try new jokes at every single show. Doesn't matter where I'm doing a gig. Doesn't matter how big the gig. Get out a notepad and do jokes. Yeah. At the end of 90 minutes, do some new shit. See what works. Because that's the thing that makes you have to write some new stuff today. Right.

Have to have some stuff to do tonight at the mothership. Yeah. Yeah. It forces you. All that thing of like, I'm not going to eat that because I'm going to feel terrible tomorrow. I think like the future is I didn't get that till recently. There's an interesting thing about God is the future. God is an analogy for the future.

Work hard now for a better life in the future. So that was have a good life here, so paradise. But that lesson is the whole of self-help, is the whole of hard choices now, easy life later. Yeah, but there's also this thought that one day you're going to get somewhere and you'll have, air quotes, made it. And that's not real either.

Even though if you're successful, you're still just on this path. But getting there isn't half the fun. It's all the fun. Yeah. It's that thing of going, why do I want to put together a course on standup comedy? Why do I want to go and play arenas now?

Yeah. Isn't it enough? Well, no, because I want to feel outside my comfort zone. I want to feel like I'm beginning again. I want to feel like I'm on a road going somewhere again. And when I get there, there'll be another place to go. So that thing of like going, you've, you've, you know, you built this thing. There'll be, there'll be a next,

there'll be a something else you need to do. And it's also, I don't know how to pronounce it. I think it's either T-Lick or T-Lick, but there's T-Lick and anti-T-Lick. That's how I'm saying it. I've only ever seen it written down, but that thing of like tasks without end and tasks with an end,

tasks with an end, kind of depressing. I mean, they're great. You're in the trenches. You're doing something together. You finish the, ah. Yes. It's kind of depressing.

Like finishing school is kind of, ah. Yeah. But a task without end, like being a stand-up comedian, trying to be a better stand-up comedian. So if there's a Mount Rushmore of comedy, we could be two faces on that. We're not. We could be at some stage yeah that that feels like

it's the never-ending task of going could you be better at this yeah because there are people doing it better than me yeah and that's one of the beautiful things about people that are doing it better than you that's so inspirational and i i love it i mean that thing of like you go and see any show yeah if it's terrible you get something from it, you go and see any show. Yeah. If it's terrible, you get something from it. Mm-hmm. Like, if I go and see a show and it's genuinely terrible writing, but he sold it, I go, well, that performance, I could learn something. It's often the people you dismiss early on. Mm-hmm. Like, if someone wants to be a professional comedian and they go, I don't like that comedian. Yeah.

I go, are you ready to be a professional? Like? I don't care what you like. What did you learn? Right. Can you see what you like what did you learn it's it's right can you see what they did can you see and it's often the thing that you're bad at is the thing that they do so well it's like for years i didn't really get charming because i work on charisma so it's so charming for me is like the guy didn't have anything right but then you look at charm you look at how people because i think those words are conflated in our worlds, right?

Charm and charisma. But like Donald Trump is charismatic. Yes. Obama is charming. Charisma is you come to me. Charm is I come to you. Obama, look at his speech pattern, his head to the side. He's like this super welcoming.

We're going to find common ground here. Trump is you come no matter what you think of them politically. One is one. One is the other. Angelina Jolie is charismatic. Jennifer Aniston is charming. They both get to fuck Brad Pitt. They're both great things. But knowing what you are strikes me as a very important part of, again, another reason to study stand up comedy is like you find out who you are. Find out what your voice is. What do you work on? What's your thing? If I try and be charming, it comes across as smarmy because I don't have that gear.

It's, yeah, interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. And I think there's also, you know, there's a real unfortunate aspect of stand-up comedy where people don't like when other people are doing well. There's some people that don't like comics because they don't like other people doing well. It's almost like they wish that they were the only one doing well. There is that strange issue.

I mean... Stupid. Like, there's a little bit of that occasionally. But, I mean, beyond a certain level. Here's, look around. If you're making a living as a stand-up comic, congratulations, you made it. If you're not as rich and famous as you think you should be,

well, you don't even know what game you're playing. We're all in this. We're all doing the same job. It's all incredible. The idea that we're literally living this we're all doing the same job it's all incredible the idea that we're literally living off our wits yes it's how few of us there are i mean there's no one doing this that's why i think it's like virgin territory it's like imagine if there was like a hundred musicians that have released an album that's how many people with like a special that's gone global. Yeah.

Maybe 100. Yeah. It might be more. It might be 200. Right. It's not many. Not many. You kind of get to be the first in.

This is the ground floor. Mm-hmm. And that thing of, and when you think about humanity, I read this book recently, David Deutsch, The Beginning of Infinity, and it's like it blew my mind.

It was the idea that there's been 100 billion people so far, right? And there's 9 billion people currently or close to. And there might be trillions in the future. There might be because we found this meme that is the scientific method. And maybe we could go interplanetary and maybe humanity could expand beyond this universe evil maybe we could get somewhere maybe physics delivers and we get to a new place and there could be generation upon generation upon generation well we're still at the ground level of this thing where people find a voice and find a perspective on things and it's called stand-up comedy it's kind of an american medium and it's new this this is what it must have felt

like in the jazz clubs in the 30s this is yeah how exciting is this life you go and when someone says to me oh but that comedian he's playing a bigger room than me and he's sold out faster. Yeah. Oh, fuck off. Yeah, fuck off. You can fuck all the way off. You get to do this. Who gets to do this? Yeah, it's so silly. Like, I mean, there's people listening to this podcast

with real jobs who are working to live. And God fucking bless them. Yeah. And I hope for them, all of them, no matter what age they are, that thing of like,

they get to do something that fulfills them, that makes them truly happy. And they get to, it's not even do something, to be. It's to be, not to do. I think you are a stand-up comic. That's your job. That's your role. And you meet all these other incredible people along the road, and they're so different. And that thing that you're doing is a vehicle for developing your human potential. As you get better at that thing and you understand what it takes,

you can apply that to all aspects of your life. Yeah. I wrote like a self-help book based on standup comedy. Really? Yeah. Well, they paid me to write an autobiography in the, in the, in basically in the lockdown in the UK, we had choices. Our managers all called us and they said, look, you can start a podcast or you can write a book. And I took the gentleman's option. I wrote a book. Good luck with this. Let's see if it works out. I wrote a book and I wrote like this before and laughter. I called it the and it was like a self-help thing of going, well, what standups taught me? And it was like a self-help thing of going, well, what stand-ups taught me? Because it did make me a better person.

It's like if you think about what's the core skill, it's pattern recognition. Oh, that's strange. I've noticed a pattern there. Like jokes are very simple patterns. Like the rule of three joke is the shortest pattern you could get. And it's all pattern recognition, noticing difference. And it rewards, what does it reward? Verbal dexterity. I mean, we've both avoided any hard work in our lives

through verbal dexterity. Yeah. Fucking terrific. It's amazing. Long may it last. I've never done a day's work. I've done a lot of day's work, which is one of the things that makes me appreciate it.

Yeah. It's interesting, that thing. I worked till I was maybe 25, advertising and marketing or whatever. And, uh, I do still think that's a, it's a very valuable thing. It is because it makes you realize what you don't want to do. Yeah. I did a lot of construction jobs when I was a kid and, uh, that will wake you up to what real hard work is. I spent an entire summer building a wheelchair ramp at a Knights of Columbus hall. So the entire summer I carried cement bags and pressure-treated lumber. And it was in the hot sun in the summer.

And I would get out of there and I'd go to the gym at night and I was exhausted. I couldn't train. I was so tired. And just every day. You'd go to the gym at night after carrying cement bags all day? Yeah, I was exhausted. I couldn't train. I was so tired. And I just, you'd go to the gym at night after carrying cement bags. I had to, I was training, I was competing still. So I was still fighting. And so I was going, that feels like, that feels like a training sequence from Rocky three. Is that the one with the Russian? Well, yeah, he's training in high tech. You've gone back to logs. Yeah. Cement. It wasn't making me stronger. It was making my resolve to not work stronger.

It was making me realize, like, there's got to be a better way to make money. I can't do this. Because this was physically exhausting and boring. It wasn't something I enjoyed doing. It was boring. It sucked. You were in the sun all day. And also, I was not good at recognizing that you had to stay hydrated and take vitamins and take care of your body.

I was just like eating Subway sandwiches and drinking Coca-Cola. Yeah, but that's what your 20s is for. Sure, yeah. No one seems to know that early on. No one seems to grasp it. And it doesn't matter how much you tell young people, like, yeah, I'll be fine. Yeah, you have to learn. But those hard jobs made me realize, like, this could be your life if you don't take a chance if

you don't really go for it but it's that thing if you go someone told me this thing recently about the difference between ambition and entitlement and it's okay so it's where you are now and where you want to be and if you want to do something about it and you're going to do something about it that's ambition and if you think someone else should, that's entitlement. And giving people agency, high agency people, giving them like the power to do that is what the whole school system should be set up to do. Yeah, and teaching people the difference between those things and that you are not doing enough. You may think that you're doing enough and that you should be receiving more, but you get what you deserve for the most part.

Well, I mean, that's very Cain and very biblical. It's very Cain and Abel. It's the idea of Cain's sacrifice wasn't enough. And then he's bitter and resentful of that. And that resentment thing is like, there's a great line on resentment. Like if you think, you know, that guy jealous of another comedian doing better, whatever, cry me a river.

But that thing of like resentment is you think someone else has ruined your life. And you're right. Someone has. And it's you. Yeah. It's that quote, all criticism is a tragic result of unmet needs. Hang on. Yeah.

Give me a second with that. Yeah. It's more complicated than that. The actual quote is longer. Cool. That's fantastic. But on. Yeah. Give me a second with that. Yeah. It's more complicated than that. The actual quote is longer. Cool. And what's the, what that's fantastic, but it's perfect. That, that snippet of it is absolutely perfect because that's what a lot of the, the reason why most people criticize is because they feel like someone has something they don't deserve and they wish, obviously there's criticism for people that are doing something terrible or doing something badly or just like just ruining something.

Well, I had like. For sure. But I had this theory about envy and jealousy. And I don't mind which word you use for which. But for me, I would say envy is very good. Jealousy is very bad. So envy, if you tells you what you want. It's fuel.

What's the most fundamental question in life? It's what do you want? Right. Because I mean, no wind is favorable if you don't know what direction you're going in. Yes. So it's the envy. Sometimes you see someone on stage and you go, I want that. I want to be the guy on stage. Yes. Great. Okay. So now we know what we want. We're going to move towards that and who knows how, but we're going to try. Yes. Okay. Jealousy is when you don't want someone else to have what they've got right that's not anything that's just what you recognize is bad feeling and the bad feeling is the jealousy the bad feeling is you wish you had what that person has so instead of

like looking at the reality of your existence in your life and whether or not you deserve it or whether you put the work in whether or not you've achieved a level of proficiency that would allow you to get that. You just want it and they have it and you're mad at them because they make you feel bad. It's like dumb guys that wind up hating women because they keep getting rejected. So they associate women with negative feelings and bad feelings because these women reject them. So they decide they hate women. Rather than just becoming a – Yeah, becoming someone that someone would want to be attracted to.

Yeah. Yeah, someone who was worth being around, someone who would want to have a relationship with. Yes. I mean, kind and caring. Yeah. It's a weird thing. Women are looking for kind and caring men and men are looking for people with big tits. But that's because all women are kind and caring.

Or the vast majority of women are kind and caring. Much more than men. So we don't need to have that as our primary. Okay, let's look for that. People talk about toxic masculinity, but it's an easy fix, isn't it? Be a mensch, be a gentleman. Yes. Done.

You'll do very well. And then there's also this thing where you can kind of bypass that if you're extraordinarily successful like if you're a billionaire you know that people will just seek you out and they'll they'll even accept a certain amount of personality flaws and physical flaws because you just have this extraordinary wealth you know so there's people that just go in that direction they just try to achieve this like undeniable material success. Yeah. I don't know where that gets. I mean, billionaires do seem to be giving away their money. Left and right. The number one reason why women get rich is divorce.

But I mean, but actively, you know, the altruistic thing of like they're giving away their money. They're trying to do something. But the idea they're giving away their money and you go, well, that's interesting. Like what matters? Because money is a magic lamp, right? It is the quote. But you have to know what to wish for. For me, wishing wells work. But wishing wells work before you think they work.

You throw the coin in and you make a wish and that's what deciding what to wish for is how they work knowing knowing what you want in life strikes me that kind of that's what we're talking about earlier that first adventure in life finding out what you want who you want to be yeah and you you're kind of it's it's hard that's like it's it's the hero's journey for everyone. Yeah. And that's the real tragedy when people don't find the thing. And some people never find a thing. Well, there's other, I mean, listen, there's different lives that you can lead.

I mean, for me, I had kids pretty late in life. But I do feel like it makes every other status game look petty. It's suddenly you go, ah, I thought I had skin in the game. I thought risking everything, leaving my job to become a standup comedian. I didn't have any skin in the game, it was only me. And now I've got my girl, I've got my kids. I go, oh, now things could go south.

Now I've got stuff that's. Right. You know, so I thought I had, I thought I'd kind of game the system, but actually I was playing a very low stakes game. And so that thing of going, listen, if you're, if you're working in a job you hate, but you're feeding your family, fucking fair play to you. Yes. You're doing great. Yes. You're definitely, you're succeeding. Yeah.

But, you know, if you want a dream, if you have a thing that you're striving for and you don't chase it, that's a terrible way to live your life. To wake up one day and realize that you didn't go for it. You didn't take the chances. You didn't follow this thing that has been always in the back of your mind just talking to you. Yeah. follow this thing that has been always in the back of your mind just talking to you yeah i made like a list uh years ago of people that made it late in life like as a like morgan freeman and samuel l jackson they didn't have their leading roles till they were in their 40s but it's a good list it's a good list i put it in the book and it's like i found it quite like

calming for going it's not a race yeah like most comics don't do their best work until they're in the 50s you know it's not kind of a young man's game that's i find that very comforting yes it's like most of my favorite most of the stuff that i it's not just stuff you watch stuff you re-watch that's great that's a great bit. If everything goes well, your perspective will be enhanced with every day You're on this planet and every life experience that you have and that you learn from And that that will enhance your ability as an artist to express yourself You'll you'll know more you'll understand more you understand yourself more you understand how other people see you You'll understand how to get these ideas into people's heads better

It's interesting that thing of like going, another reason to teach stand-up, the idea of knowing how you're perceived in the world is such an underrated skill. Very. Because knowing how you change the atmosphere when you walk in a room, it's often the way with like,

I don't know if you've ever noticed this, like very, very beautiful people, like super symmetrical, beautiful people tend to speak very slowly. Hmm. Never been interrupted. No one's ever interrupted. Right. You're a what?

You're a, you know, agent provocateur model. What? Right. What? Yeah. Hanging on every word. I speak very quickly because this. But, you know, you've got that thing of like you don't quite know. I'm sure Marilyn Monroe just thought that's how people, when you walk in a room, everyone turns around and looks.

Yeah. That's how rooms work. Isn't that what it was? Because she never gets to experience the world through someone else's eyes. Isn't that Socrates' quote? Was it Socrates that said, beauty is a short-lived tyranny? Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's a good one.

That's good, yeah. Because you just, you dominate with symmetry, you know, and you don't really have to be that interesting if you're gorgeous. And, but listen, people that are gorgeous and listening, lean into it. You might as well use what you've got while you've got it. Oh, yeah.

You've got to invest in the other things. a golden ticket. Yeah, right. If you're smart, you'd invest in all those other things too. Well, isn't it interesting

how we think people that are born beautiful, lucky. She's just lucky. It's easy for her or him. It's easy because they were born beautiful. We never say that

about smart people. We never think, oh, it's easy for Joe Rog rogan he was born really smart and inquisitive yeah it's easy for him to write comedy because he's got that that noggin on him so it's easy no one ever thinks that people go oh no he did the work and that's the great illusion of our culture there's two great lies one is talent and one is hard work and they're both lies and we know they're lies i'll tell you who michael jordan is without hard work yeah no one no one yeah i mean he had all the talent in the world that physical prowess and obviously not everyone can do that so it's a mix of the two it's always going to be that i talk about it as edge what's your edge in life what what what could you do better than anything else you have to do it the best in the world but what's your thing that you bring to the party what's the thing that you what here's a great

question what do you find easy that other people find hard it's interesting you talked about being shy when you were 16 yeah and yet you've lent into it to a degree where your whole life is putting people at ease and welcoming them and talking to them. Yeah. And you were nervous talking to a bank teller.

Mm-hmm. I was entirely dyslexic as a kid. I couldn't read until I was about sort of 11. Oh. And I spend my life now reading autocue.

I was so terrified of reading out loud in class. How did you fix dyslexia? How does dyslexia manifest itself? I don't think it's a real thing. Really? Well, because you can't take a blood test for it. So it's just a way of thinking. So what did you see when you said you couldn't read until you were 11? What did you see?

When I write, so people, I think when you write, when most people write, they sort of just write the word. I need to think of every letter in the word as I write. And so as I read, I read individual words. I read pretty slowly even now compared to, I don't know what my reading age is, but it's definitely not commensurate with where I should be. But I managed to kind of game the system. You find your way around it. Did you take lessons? No.

No, no. I mean, I got into Cambridge. I did very well academically. Right, but how did you overcome? You just basically, I sort of, I figured out early on that pattern recognition thing of going, okay, I need to get A's in my A levels, like whatever you call the end of school. I need to graduate with a, whatever. I need to do very well. So I found the brightest guy in the school and I said,

can I read your essays? He said, yeah. I read what he'd done and I didn't copy the essay, but I copied the structure. And so I kind of learned to go, okay, well in academia, what do you need to do to kind of game the system and how can i get around it and it's just that thing you go well that's you have to i think there's a there's a fair bit of acceptance in it you have to go well i my mind works a bit differently to other people's you know i'm not as gifted in that so it's going to take me longer to read something what do they say the what is when they say what is dyslexia, like technically, like when they give you a definition of it, like what's the root cause? Like Google dyslexia.

I'm looking all over. I would Google it, but I wouldn't be able to spell it. I often get a thing like with spell check on my computer, it will just go, huh? Right. What are you trying to say? I don't even know what you're shooting for there. Give me a clue. Put it in a sentence.

Isn't that a beautiful's no idea though that you do get that little red squiggly line under your words i mean oh thank goodness i say i wrote a book i co-wrote a book yeah with microsoft word yeah yeah without spell check it's not anything hell is this yeah for sure but it's oftentimes where i just when i'm typing a text learning disability yeah i was in like special ed till i was all the way through sort of primary school. It happens because of disruptions in how your brain processes writing so you can understand it. Most people learn they have dyslexia during childhood and it's typically a lifelong issue. This form of dyslexia is also known as developmental dyslexia.

Dyslexia falls under the umbrella of specific learning disorder. This disorder has three main subtypes, reading, dyslexia, writing, dysgraphia, and math, dyscalculia. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's one of those things where I don't think that's helpful. For me, I don't think it's helpful. I don't think the label ever helped me. I remember getting, like, properly diagnosed at university just so I could get a free laptop. And they would give you an extra half an hour in the exam. But like, you know, my written word isn't, I'm not great at cursive.

So it's interesting. The slowdown processing can affect everything that follows. That includes slowed reading because you have trouble processing and understanding words, difficulties with writing and spelling, problems with how you store words and their meanings in your memory, trouble forming sentences to communicate more complex ideas. Dyslexia is uncommon overall but widespread enough to be well known. 7% of the population worldwide. I'd say that's pretty widespread.

Yeah, it's pretty widespread. Yeah. It may affect up to 20% of the people worldwide. Yeah. Wow. What causes it? Okay, what's the symptoms? Hang on, what have we got?

Genetics. Absolutely. Highly genetic and runs in families. It's all genetic, isn't it? Okay, what's the symptoms? Hang on, what have we got? Genetics. It's highly genetic and runs in families. It's all genetic, isn't it? That's a good point. I wonder what it is about genetics that would cause it. A child with one parent with dyslexia has a 30% to 50% chance of inheriting it. Well, I wonder what the advantage was. There's always a Darwinian advantage somewhere.

Well, it says if you are dyslexia, if you have dyslexia, rather, you're neurodivergent. It means your brain formed or works differently than expected. Research shows that people with dyslexia have differences in brain structure, function, and chemistry. Huh. So a bunch of things can happen. Huh. So a bunch of things can happen. Infections, toxic exposures and other events can disrupt fetal development and increase the odds of later development of dyslexia. Oh, we did fine. Here's my thing. I don't think it's helpful to have. I mean, I went to, you know, arguably the best university in the UK. I guess Oxford would have issues with that. But I think Cambridge was great and did very well academically. And it was hard.

It was maybe it was harder for me to do than it was for my friends that were just naturally gifted academically. But I really wanted that thing. And what was the driver to get that thing? Well, the driver was the humiliation of being in the special ed class and not being able to read out in class. And having I remember my friend telling me the stories of what was happening in Lord of the Rings because I couldn't read it. So I was going, what happens?

And being really excited by that. So that thing of like that poor kid going, feeling less than, going, well, I need to get this academic achievement to do something. So you were going up to the bank teller shyly at 16. The gift that shy kid gave you was the drive for this.

So it's all gratitude. It's all like, well, great. What are you motivated by? Not everyone's motivated towards something. Sometimes it's just away from something. So if you grew up and you didn't have, you weren't wealthy as a kid. I mean, it was great for us because it was pre-internet. So I grew up in Slough and we didn't have many foreign holidays.

Fine. Didn't matter. My mother was fantastic and it was a great childhood. And I didn't have to look at everyone else's childhood on my phone. I didn't have to look at what everyone else had. I just knew the people around me and we were all kind of in the same boat it's lovely I kind of think that

comparison is the thief of joy it's just so true yeah it really is and you know you can instead of having that experience you can compare and be inspired and that's just a switch that you have

to make in your mind. And that's the difference between being jealous and envious, right? If you're envious, you can use that as fuel. This is disposition is more important than position. If you keep going back to kind of gratitude, like, okay, we're fine. You can kind of do anything. Yes. You know, because it's quite empowering as well, that thing of like it's just a happy mood to be in. Yeah. Yeah, you can choose to interface with life in a more positive way. And, you know, sometimes people need things that happen to them, near-death experiences, tragedies, psychedelics, something that like snaps you out of this state that you're in this groove that's been deeply cut into your consciousness and the way you approach life you need something different that sort of allows

you to see like okay i can look at things differently and that would be a better thing for me and that would be that would help me achieve what i'm trying to achieve in life and then as you do do that and apply it and you see the results that are positive then you gain momentum in this very good direction for me i think grief is a huge driver like that you know that that great uh uh there's lots of great quotes it was the same with me but that that thing of uh every man has two lives and he's first and and the second begins when he realizes he only has one. It's like you've got that for me. I remember hearing that and going, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, this is it. There's no rehearsal. So I think that thing of when you're a kid, you're kind of living sort of for someone else. You're sort of trying to impress your parents or someone at school or there's that kind of weird memetic desire for, I want what they've got. You know, they've got those trainers, so I want those training shoes. You know, they've got that car. I want that car.

You're in competition with the world to kind of keeping up with people. Yeah. And then there's people that tell you the direction you are supposed to go in and they're angry at you if you don't follow it. If you have like very you know like controlling parents that can be a real issue you have to figure out a way to snap out of that you know um it's very hard though isn't it because you know different people like childhoods there's this is this is a real tough love thing this isn't popular but there has to be a statute of limitations on childhood trauma because for for an 18-year-old to tell me,

I'm not doing so great because my mom's a narcissist. Right. Yeah. Man, that must have been really tough. If a 40-year-old tells me that, though. Right. Time to get over it. Yeah.

But at what stage do we, is there like, should there be a ceremony at 25 where we go, okay, everyone, that's all done. It's your responsibility now. Well, that's a good point, what you just said, because that's, I think, one of the things that we're missing that has always existed in cultures is a rites of passage. Some sort of a ceremony that allows you to recognize that you are now held to a higher standard. You are in a new stage of existence and that this stage requires you to now you are a man or now you are a new stage of existence and that this in this stage requires you to now you are a man or now you are a woman and now you have to take agency over your own life and you have to

take responsibility for your decisions and you have to think of yourself as an adult now and you know there's people that are 35 years old still living with their parents and they're still fucking off and they never really matured and became a man. They got stuck in this. And listen, it's all very well for us, you know, the rich comedians. Sure. But it's a tough love thing. If you're listening to this in your mother's basement, it's not from a place of malice that we're saying this.

It's a place of love going, you know, take responsibility and do something. Because if you're 35 living at home or 40 living at home, you've still got 30 great years. Yeah. You can get out there. Get out there. If you're a 40-year-old single man and you're a good guy, there's a woman going, ah, where is he? Yeah, you can still make it. But that's the thing, too.

Of course you can. It's hard, though, because you're in that groove and you're coming from behind. And you might feel like, well, I'm coming from behind, but who cares? It's just hard to internalize that, right, for a lot of people. And there's books on that, right? There's books that you can learn a better way to think and a better way to approach things. I mean, there's a lot of inspirational books that are nonsense. You know, there's a lot of people that write books about going for it and chasing your dreams.

But addressing the root cause of each individual psychological roadblock that you have in your mind, like you can learn from those and you can recognize those. I found CBT very interesting. What is that? Cognitive behavioral therapy. Oh, okay. So they have these kind of list of, we could pull it up, just the list of thought patterns is brilliant for like, just look at you. You think actually the problems in the world today could be solved with a good session of this.

It's like, just like things like magical thinking. Some people just do magical thinking or they, you know, it's kind of, they just put up their own, um, that, well, if I do this, then that kind of weird cycles of thought and just being aware of it seems to change it. You got the list of them? I don't know if there's a specific list. Yeah. CBT kind of thought patterns. When did you get involved in that? Yeah, CBT kind of thought patterns. When did you get involved in that? Well, here's a weird thing.

I got into kind of West, I suppose, West Coast kind of human development, human potential movement through Shell Oil. So I was working for a big oil company and there was a training budget. Now, I wasn't on the oil rigs. This will shock you. But I was a training budget. Now, I wasn't on the oil rigs. This will shock you. But I was in the office. I know I seem like a real alpha dude, but I was in the office pushing paper, talking about marketing and adverts. And so they had a training budget for everyone. So we used our training budget to go and do like courses.

So we did a lot of neurolinguistic programming and we did a lot of kind of CBT type stuff, you know, talking to people. And it was all about kind of, you know, trying to, you know, what are you going to do career wise and what's happening within the corporate structure but for me it was like i found it such a pleasing i kind of lost my faith in my mid-20s or kind of maybe very slightly earlier and then it was like this sort of replaced that in terms of like it's a way of seeing the world so the central i, I mean, NLP's got its critics, but the idea of going, the map is not the territory. How you see the world isn't how the world is. It's just how you're seeing it. And you could see it differently. You could change the world

or you could change your perspective on the world. And it strikes me, one of those is a lot easier. It's not easy, but it's a lot easier than the other one. Yeah, a lot easier. And it was very freeing Okay, what's this all or nothing thinking catastrophic thinking over generalizing? Yeah, this is these are all great Most people go to go to the top. What's the top one Jamie scroll down? So all nothing thinking thinking extremes for example, something is either 100% good or 100% back

Okay, so the boyfriend doesn't call you back only hates, he hates me. Right. He hates me then. Okay, it's over. Catastrophizing follows that. Jumping to the worst possible conclusion. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, stand-up comics that we know, it's the all or nothing thinking. My career's in the toilet.

I'm useless when you've had a bad show. Seeing a pattern based on a single event, overgeneralizing, mental filter, only paying attention to certain types of evidence. That doesn't count. Yes. In quotes. Well, it's an interesting thing that I've liked when you think politically, if you're having a political conversation with anyone. I always like try and ask, what would you need to see to change your mind?

And if they don't have an answer, if it's a matter of principle, it means they're not willing to listen to reason. Right. They're ideologically bound. Yeah. I mean, I must say, the thing about your show, like coming on here, I've seen your show a lot. And the openness is fantastic. The openness to, okay, what do you got? Tell me.

It's like, it's such an unusual thing. What do you got? Tell me. It's like, it's such an unusual thing because most of what we have in us is that everything seems very, looking at America as a visitor here, thanks for having me, it feels like there's a cold civil war. There is. Where people are on this side and this side. And I could ask you your opinion on any one of five issues and I could tell you what you

think about everything else. And that's a bit depressing. I want to be surprised. Like individuals, I want them... It's almost like kind of joining a political party, it strikes me, is a little bit ordering from the set menu at the Chinese restaurant.

If you've never had Chinese food before, okay, I'll go with that. The set menu, you tell me. But like following a political party, you agree with them about everything. That seems far-fetch a political party, you agree with them about everything. Right. That seems far-fetched. I don't agree with anyone about everything.

Right. Yeah. It would seem crazy. I've learned how to do that, though. I was most certainly in that camp at one point in my life. And then doing this podcast and having this incredible opportunity to talk to so many different people that are brilliant and so many different people that have completely different perspectives and my genuine curiosity as to why they think the way they think and instead and learning how to not judge them because the way they think is different than mine than my thoughts but instead to try to try to put myself in their mind and try to see

from their perspective and also give them the most charitable take on them that I can. This is, yeah, it's that, it's the other question before you get into any kind of political debate with anyone. First question, do you believe people can change? And if someone goes, no, they are what they are, why are we even talking? Forget that. That's such a silly perspective that so many people share. But it's that thing of like going, if you have the same political views that you had when you were 21 and you're now 45, you haven't been thinking much. You've just been rearranging your prejudices.

Yeah. That's not thinking. Yeah, you're biased. What was the last thing you changed your mind about? It's such an interesting question. Yeah. What was the last thing, like big thing that you went,

I used to think that and now I think this. And it's a really interesting question. What would yours be what was the last thing that you the medical establishment i i used to think that medicine was there purely to heal people and make people better and that all the doctors were on board with that and what do you think now i think they're captured by an enormous industry and that this enormous industry uh first of all it it starts with dictating where funds go. So there's one group that decides what studies are going to be run, what tests,

what research is going to be funded. And so all of those doctors that receive that funding have to step in line. Then you have the enormous impact that we have in this country of pharmaceutical drugs are allowed to advertise on television. We're one of two countries in the world. You and New Zealand, right? Yes, that's it. Why isn't that just, I mean... But New Zealand's far more restrictive than America. America's insane.

But I mean, that thing of like, there's a lot of comedy routines have fallen out of that. That's the good that's come of it. Let's be grateful. Yeah, I guess. Hey, these sound effects sound worse than the thing. Yeah, right. But that idea of like, that's such an easy fix.

Yeah, it's not. It's because the entanglement is so deep about the biggest industry in the world yes it's bigger than anything else and then there's also like we're talking about this oversimplification they make a lot of amazing medications that have helped so many people that have prolonged lives saved lives helped people but i invest a lot of my money in a cancer company. It's a great thing to do. Because that thing of like going,

well, whatever you give to charity in a year, whatever that sum is, go with God, good luck. But whatever you give to charity won't be as much as you invest for most people, right? Unless you're incredibly altruistic. So invest in something that's worth something.

So that idea if you go, well, it's also the medical establishment. There's lots of problems. But when you're sick. Yes. Who are you going to call? Yeah. It's it's it's your only option. And it's it seems to be. Yeah. It's just disturbing to realize that they've been captured and that the media has been captured so hard. And that that was that was a real revelation that was very uncomfortable for me to accept. And a lot of the information that I got from that

was from doctors, from heterodox doctors, doctors that would explain to you what the problems with the system were and how they were discouraged and doctors that were fortunate enough to go independent. Well, it's the interesting thing about your show is the thing about the Overton window and how much you're willing to push.

Because when you said it's a lab leak, you were in trouble. And then 18 months later, everyone goes, yeah, but it probably was a lab leak, though. Yeah. But I wasn't saying it because I was guessing. I was saying it because brilliant people were willing to stick their neck out who were actual experts in viruses. And they had studied it and they understood it. But in this forum, you said it and it moved the conversation forward. You're saying that moved the Overton window of like, actually, I think it might be okay to say that.

I think it might be okay to talk about that. Like, it's that thing if you want to know where real power is in any community, who can't you criticize? And that thing of like going, okay, well that's interesting. Sorry, we're not allowed to discuss this. Sorry, this is a that's a

that's not right. I want to have a conversation about it. And as a comic, isn't that the one thing that we always tune in on? Like moths to a flame. What are you saying as a comic, isn't that the one thing that we always tune in on? Like moths to a flame. What are you saying? I can't talk about that? Oh.

Why? Well, what about this? And they're like, oh, you're just a conspiracy theorist. Well, doesn't comedy live between, I think it kind of operates somewhere between public and private discourse. So when you watch the news, no one talks like that. Right. And they don't even think that.

And then a private conversation in a bar, in a car, in bed, talking about stuff. You kind of question things. Yeah. And it feels like comedy is in that it's a public sphere where you can have those conversations. Yes. And you can push things. Mm-hmm. And it's like why

are people drawn to comedy why is there so many comics coming up why are people so interested in going out and seeing shows ah this is this is what's going on i mean i think that thing of the i agree with what you're saying about okay so captured seems like it's very strong language but you go and there's so many incredible doctors out there and nurses out there and physios and the medical and researchers. There's so much incredible work going on. And I don't know. I mean, if Peter Attia and David Sinclair are to be believed, maybe we'll all live to be 120, 130. They're finding these things in the research is metformin and ripamycin and all

this kind of incredible stuff. It's exciting. It's great, but also there's something else going on as well. But I try and see the, I mean, I've got a very positive disposition. I try and see the good. I try. Oh, I do too. I think generally people overall are good. The problem with being captured is when your livelihood depends upon you towing the line and then everyone does it. That gets really scary for the general population that's ignorant to what's really going on. Yeah. Especially when it deals with something like them prescribing pharmaceutical drugs. I mean the opioid crisis in America is like the greatest example of that.

And, you know, that I can't see an argument for. I mean, it's incredible because it didn't happen anywhere else. Right. It's like it's not like you can go, well, look at the UK and Germany and France and South Africa and Australia. Look at all these other places. They all had an opioid crisis. Exactly. No, just an opioid crisis. Exactly. No. Just here? Just here.

Just here. And predicated on kind of an assumption that there should be no pain. Yeah. That's what it was. But that's kind of, that was the root was no one should be in any discomfort ever. Right. And isn't that kind of the issue with the world? And isn't that kind of the issue with the world?

I mean, listen, I don't want to be mean to people, but what are comics good at? Well, very good at being uncomfortable. Yeah. Dying on stage. They call it dying for a reason. It's dying. Bombing.

It's called bombing because the sound, it's like after when you see a movie and they see Black Hawk down and the bomb blast goes off and everyone's ears are blown out. It's just nothing. It's just fucking nothing. But being uncomfortable is like, what are you unwilling? What discomfort are you unwilling to experience? And conversely, the other side of it is killing.

Killing. You're like, I got him. I killed you get off stage. They're roaring with laughter and they cheer we got him Yeah, they killed it and they and the experience for the audience. Yeah of being in there Oh, it's the greatest experience for me as an audience member to this day The thing that I love the most is being in the audience when someone is just fucking, whether it's music or comedy, it's the same thing for me.

This is this beautiful experience of someone just in there. I went to see post Malone recently in Houston and it was a fucking incredible show. God damn. It was good. It was so good. So much energy, the lights and the sound and his passion for it and the crowd loved him.

And I left there, I felt like I was a better person. I left there, I was like, God, I just got elevated. I find if you see a great band live, I saw The Killers recently, I went to see them in Edinburgh. They're here real soon. Oh yeah, I love those guys. Ronnie and Brandon are the best. But that thing of like, you see a great band,

it kind of anchors you. You feel Seventeen again. There's something in you that just, this is just, it's that spirit of it. I suppose the great thing about music, it's non-verbal communication. We don't really sort of think of it as such, but it just cuts to that thing of, here's an interesting thing, right? So we want old music, new movies, and it's primitive mind, higher mind. So the primitive mind wants to, wants to do things again and again, eating, fucking, listening to the same song. You want to do these things again and again and again and again and again. That's the primitive mind. And music taps into that somehow. It's somehow kind of gets into your system. And that thing of like those, like your favorite album. I don't know what your favorite album is, but I know it came out when you were 18. I know at 17, 18, when you

first got a driver's license, that first sense of freedom, that album that you had on in the car. For me, it would be the Stone Roses the stone roses the stone roses whatever it is for you but it'll be from that age with 95% of people and then I mean I listen to a lot of new music I'm kind of obsessed by it but there's something about a familiar tune and yet movies we want new stories because it's for the higher mind mmm was chatting to my friend Johnny McDade recently he was a songwriter and we're chatting about story songs because he's got this idea to write songs with stories to kind of connect try and connect the two yeah it's interesting concept well that is one of the reasons why country music new country music in this country is taking off yeah because it's stories yeah like they're almost all the songs are about someone's life and some story in their life or some passage in their life or some some moment where everything changed.

Yeah, it's interesting. It's like country is. But it's kind of it's rock and roll without the irony. It's really interesting that hasn't got that. It's very emotionally raw. Yes. I don't know if you've ever been around. I've written a couple of songs with friends or whatever that thing of like it's very exposing yes in a way that jokes you can kind of

hide behind a little bit i'm just messing around here but but the the exposing kind of nature of going no no this is heartfelt this is what i feel it's beautiful yes and it's it's it's really someone showing their neck yeah it's like and when you when. Yes. And when you connect to that, when you hear a song and go, well, that's just, that's exactly how I feel. Yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing. Like, there's certain emotions that I can only, like grief, I think is one of them. I often have a thing with songs, like a song will come on the radio and the grief that comes over you. You remember exactly where you

were when you heard that song with the person and it's like really beautiful music it's extraordinary especially i mean i can play the guitar a tiny bit but the idea of like the mastery that these guys have and there's so much great stuff there's so much great it's constantly being created there's so much great stuff. There's so much great. It's constantly being created. There's constantly new music that's coming out. I feel a bit like bad for musicians now in terms of going, there's a lot of comedians filling arenas, and it's only getting bigger, and theaters, and comedy clubs, and lots of comics. They're very evenly spread, it feels to me.

It feels like music has gone the way of film. It used to be 100 movies came out every year, 200 movies. And yeah, sure, one did better than the others. It's a big hit. But lots of movies did okay. Now it feels like less is made. And they just they all the top 10 or books, the top 10 books that we sell as many books now as we sold in the 80s. We sell as many records as we sold in the 80s. But 10 artists sell all of them. It's not a spread. And I think it's because the corporations got involved.

So think about 70s cinema and how incredible. I just read the Quentin Tarantino cinema speculation. I'm only watching 70s movies now. It's so impassioned hearing him talk about the movies that he loved. Yeah. It's kind of went through the book. It's infectious. Oh, it's like the passion, the genius.

He was an amazing guy to talk to. I mean, incredible. I mean, his mind is so fascinating. And the way he approaches the art form form it's so different than anybody else and also his films are grandfathered in like there's hyper violence in his films that would be like really criticized today if it was a new film there's like male on female violence there's like like there's a scene in i always talk about the scene from once upon a time in hollywood where brad pitt kills one of the manon girls by smashing her head against a mantelpiece. It's like, Jesus Christ, it's so wild.

Yeah. I mean, that movie was incredible. All of his films. Because the whole movie. He doesn't have a bad movie. I don't know if that movie is the same for people that didn't know the story. Because I was so tense watching the movie going, oh, I know what's going to happen. Oh, my God, I can't believe it

Uh, and then it doesn't happen and you go. Oh, it's the same glorious bastards. Yes So fantastic, but at that point I was making about like right? Okay, so 70 cinema was like kind of yeah There was a studio system But it was a bit independent that the corporations hadn't got hold of it and then the 80s it became, it became packaged and now- The algorithm hadn't been created yet. And now you go- Well, there's great cinema being made. There's wonderful movies and filmmakers out there telling proper stories.

But a lot of movies now, the big ones, are children's movies. Yeah. Anything with a good guy and a bad guy and no nuance. Well, in this country, the biggest movies are superhero films. And they're great. And they're really enjoyable. They're enjoyable. But it's not One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

Right. It's not Taxi Driver. I didn't realize until Milos Forman died, I read the obituary of Milos Forman. And I had to watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest again. I went, oh, it's about capitalism and communism. Brilliant. I didn't get it. I didn't get it. I felt like such a dummy. I went back and watched it again.

I think he came from what was Yugoslavia. Obviously, the book existed, Ken Casey. And then when he made the movie, for him, it was about the communist system versus the freedom of... i watched it as a young man and i watched it again um maybe three years ago oh my god that movie is it's a phenomenal

phenomenal movie i need to watch it again i haven't watched it in decades that thing of like if you keep kind of communism capitalism kind of in your head of like what's the subtext of this it is it's just i got some time this weekend. I'll watch it again. Oh, it's really rewarding. There's a few of those films that I really need to go back and watch again. And I said Taxi Driver, because that's another one

that I've been really thinking about watching again. There's a few of those old films. Well, you know this theory on Lindy books? Have you ever heard that theory? I know that term, but I forgot what it means. Okay, so it's like, it's the idea, like the lifespan of something is the life. So most of what is consumed in our world on phones, most of what people are looking at was produced in the last 24 hours and will be gone in 24 hours.

No one ever says this. No one ever goes, you've got to see this TikTok from two years ago. It's my favorite. It's never been said. No one's had this. No one ever goes, you've got to see this TikTok from two years ago. It's my favorite. It's never been said. No one's had that conversation. Right. So it's disposable, disposable, disposable. What stood the test of time?

So books is the first thing, right? So you go, well, these books are great books, and they've been around for 100 years, or George Orwell or Dostoevsky or those great books. Why have they stood the test of time? You know, Margaret Atwood, whatever it is, whatever the great book that you enjoy. Why is that stood the test of time? That's worth reading. That's worth giving your time to. What's the record that's been around and people still talk about now?

What's the thing that you could listen to that you go, oh, this is really going to be brilliant. I know this is good. And I kind of find that an interesting idea with cinema. We're all so drawn to the new, the new, the new all the time that we never go back and go, well, what are the greats? Yeah. And especially in our industry, in comedy or whatever, we are, you know, shout out to Dick Gregory. But, like, going back and watching the people that invented what we do.

And like, I find that the frequency has changed in comedy. Like the laughs per minute has just increased. You watch stuff from the 70s and 80s. It's not quite the frequency. And I think it's that thing of the comedians were working with an audience that hadn't seen this before. It's the audience that have come with us. Those comics, I mean, Richard Pryor's as good as anyone working today,

but his gags per minute was led by he's waiting for the audience to catch up to the ideas. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think people are very educated about comedy now. One of the beautiful things about this club is that I see that a lot of these people are really hardcore comedy fans. I met guys on the plane out. I met some guys in the airport lounge who were flying

out from Newcastle in the north of England to come to the club tonight. Yeah. And that was the, that was their holiday. So yeah, I'm going to Austin, Texas to go to Joe Rogan's club. Cause they asked me what I was doing. I said, I'm going out to do Joe Rogan. And they went, oh, we're going to the club as well. What night are you going? I went, well, I'm doing the podcast. I'm a fucking big deal. Yeah, it's become comedy tourism here.

It's really nice. Yeah. It's nice too because I don't have to travel. I've been able to do a lot of shows and just people come to us. Rereading books, watching old movies. I don't think you can see the same movie twice. Right.

It's like you can't stand in the same river twice. Different river, different man. Right. People think different river. It's a different man. Yes. Like if you saw One Flew Over the Cookies and that's 20 years ago and you rewatch it, you go, well, this is just phenomenal. And really, what do you remember?

Yeah. You kind of remember maybe one or two kind of snippets of a scene, something visual. But like rereading old books, especially with nonfiction, you kind of go, well, I'm getting totally different things from it this time. Yes. Because you have a different perspective. You're a different person. You have different information that you have at your disposal. Have you got that imprint app?

No. What is that? It's like it does visuals on books. So if you've read a nonfiction book like Black Swan, it does like it's like the I don't know what you would call it here, like the short version, the York Notes, we would call it in the UK. Yeah, Cliff Notes. Cliff Notes on the book. Fantastic for things that you've read years ago and you kind of go, oh, yeah, no, I remember that. And it's all the kind of salient points from the book. It's really interesting to kind of relook at stuff.

But it's also great for looking at stuff and going, I don't need to read that. You know, some self-help stuff. That's nothing. And then some of them you kind of look at it and go, oh, I've got to, I think I should read that. That feels like it'd be my thing. It's great, like quick check. Yeah. I love those things. Like Blinkist, I love as well. You know, that kind of just when they do the, okay, this is what the book is, but go and read it if you, you know. Right. Yeah.

At the end, you can click and buy it. It's great. And sometimes it's good to read something like that after you've read it. It just sort of refresh those ideas in your head. Because it's very, acquiring information is one thing, but retaining information is another. Well, here's what no one talks about.

People are obsessed by diet, right? Mm-hmm. Because everyone wants to get more trim or better shape or fitter or whatever. You think about what you put in your body. And then you say, well, I watched eight hours of Love Island and married at first sight. Well, that's that's McDonald's and Subway. That is that's not. I mean, great. Some once in a while. Yeah. Come on. Delicious. Yeah, have a McDonald's burger.

Great. Once in a while, watch 90 Day Fiance. Yes, once in a while. Yeah. But what's your regular diet? What's the thing you're putting in your body? So this show for a lot of people is food. You know, food for thought, literally. And for me as well.

But you go, well, that thing about going, well, what else are you reading? What are you taking in? Are you just watching the same stuff again? That thing of like listening to new music, I think, is like because it does open up a different pathway. Yes. Yeah, it definitely does. Yeah.

And old music sort of refreshes these old pathways. I saw the Rolling Stones recently. There's a racetrack out here, Circuit of the Americas. They did this outdoor concert, this enormous venue. Right. It was incredible. Security wasn't done by the Hells Angels. No, not this time.

Not this time. They've learned from that mistake. Guys, we're giving you one more try. But if anyone dies, there's going to be trouble. You know what I started rereading recently? It's Hells Angels, the Hunter S. Thompson book. Oh know what I started rereading recently? It's Hell's Angels. The Hunter S. Thompson book. Oh, is it?

I've never read it. It's incredible. Because there's that movie coming out. I watched the trailer for the new Tom Hardy. Is that? Have you seen it?

Let's put it up. Is that about the book? No, it's about... Is it about Hell's Angels? I think it's called... Is it called Motorbikers or Motorbike Riders? Bike Riders.

Bike Riders. Bike Riders. It looks phenomenal. The movie's incredible, or the book, rather, is incredible. It's Hunter S. Thompson, the beginning of his career, when he was first experimenting with this gonzo journalism thing, which is like he's essentially using fiction and nonfiction together. And he made up a lot of things apparently and he pissed a lot of the hells angels off because a lot of what he did was like very

similar to what he did was what's that what's their motto the hells angels motto is two can keep a secret if one is dead guys guys we're trying to attract new members team meeting well he also goes into the roots of how they got established. And it's a lot of people that were disenfranchised from the Vietnam War. They were just shell-shocked and broken. PTSD. Yeah. And they couldn't fit in with society anymore. And then they found this wild group of people that also couldn't fit in with society.

And they found a brotherhood, much like the brotherhood that they had in the military. I met a guy when I was in, I was doing doing a gig in i'm just trying to think where it was it was somewhere i think hamilton in uh new zealand where they have kind of a biker gangs and they've got some oh yeah and i was you know they've got big biker gangs in new zealand yeah and uh have you played new zealand no oh my god you gotta go i mean it's phenomenal phenomenal place new zealand australia i went like i you gotta go. I mean, it's phenomenal. Phenomenal place. New Zealand, Australia, I went, like, I was there for three months this year. It's just, it's the best, the best

audiences, wonderful people. Anyway, I'm there, I'm on stage, I'm chatting to a guy in the front row, uh, what do you do? Oh, I'm in, I'm in the Hells Angels. And the guy kind of looked kind of scrawny. I said, what do you do? He said, accounts. Accounts? He's the accounts guy. Wow. He's the accounts guy. He's, uh, and he told you he's in the Hells Angels you do? He said, accounts. Accounts? The accounts guy. Wow.

The accounts guy. He's a, and he told you he's in the Hell's Angels? Yeah. He was, I mean, I think he may have been a fucking idiot, but he was, full disclosure, he may have been a fucking idiot, but he was wearing the biker thing. He had the biker tats, but really squirrely guy. Wow. I just love the idea.

Someone joined a biker gang and gone, right, what, what am I, what am I doing? Am I in charge of getting- You guys need shell accounts. Am I getting the crystal meth? Am I running the hookers? Am I protection? Right. No, we need someone to do double entry bookkeeping because this is getting out of hand.

Someone's got to- There's no toilet paper. Someone's who's- Someone's doing the admin for like-'s a weird thing of guys someone's doing that for the hell's angels i guess you have to those it'll fall apart office admin yeah wild yeah yeah those those sort of groups of people that are outcasts of society have always been attracted to people well i mean what are you talking about yeah outcasts in society that all come together and find a brotherhood.

Did you just open a comedy club, did you? Yeah. It's the same thing of like that. It's back to that Alan Havey. It's we're out for ourselves, but in it together. Who said it to me? Mike Wilma. In a room of 3,000 people with a one person facing the wrong way.

Mmm, right. That's a lovely. That's a great way to put it. I think comics are people that could fit in, but chose not to. Most comedians I know, you go, well, at high school, I was in like four different groups, or university, four different friendship groups, and kind of kept them kind of separate from each other.

I don't know why, but I was kind of attracted to that, kind of having my own stuff. I always think like the question for comedians, if I meet a comic I don't know why, but I was kind of attracted to that kind of having my own stuff. I always think like the question for comedians, if I meet a comic I don't know, you want to get to know them. I always go, which one of your parents was sick? Interesting. I think, I mean, I hit the bullseye 90% of the time because for most comics, someone was sick physically or mentally sick and you had to make it okay. You had to have the ability to change the mood in the household. Yeah to make things okay to be funny Just that thing of like well watching the tension. What's being funny? What what are we doing? It's yeah, it's Funniness has a root in our evolution that people don't laughter is a million years older than language Mmm. It's a different part of the throat that you laugh with.

I mean, my weird, I've got a weird laugh. I laugh on an in, not an out, but even regular laughs, it's a million years older than language. And really, if you talk to Robin Dunbar, I did a documentary with him, who's the guy that came up with the Dunbar number of like how many friends can you have? Because he talked about a lot on social media.

So silverback gorillas can have about 60 in a pod. I think it's called a pod of gorillas. So silverback gorillas can have about 60 in the group, and they groom each other. And then it gets to 65, and there's five guys going, I don't even fucking know that guy. Start our own pod. And they start their own pod.

Now, that doesn't sound very interesting. But human beings, because we had laughter, it was remote grooming. So we could have bigger pods. We could have 150 people in our little groups. And 150 people allows specialization and specialization allows civilization so it's an incredibly important thing and really when you think about what most laughter is it's this thing where you go i'm not a threat everything's all right we're all fine here we're all good we all get it like other animals when when we show our teeth, it's trouble.

And we do it to show it's okay. Right. It's in the spirit of play. That is fascinating, the teeth thing, right? Yeah. How wild is that? That we are so far removed from using our teeth as weapons that when we show our teeth, it's like, ah, it's fun. But it's also, it's in the spirit of play.

Yes. our teeth it's like ah it's fun but it's also it's in the spirit of play yes because it's the same as like what well tickling is if you if you tickle someone in the street try it they're not going to laugh a random stranger in the street try and tickle them it has to be playful both people have to be involved yeah like a little play fight yeah uh it's it's it's um it's testing the boundaries of what's okay. Yeah. And laughter does the same thing. Laughter is like, I think that thing about what it does,

it rewards pattern recognition, verbal dexterity, and it allows us to get on in bigger groups. The importance can't be overstated. And you unite people in some strange way. People with completely different opinions about things. It's one of the things that I've said that's amazing about comedy as well is that you can go on stage and have an opinion and I can be in the audience and I have a completely different opinion. I don't agree with you at all. I'm like, I don't agree with this guy.

and you make me laugh, you have somehow or another, you've injected that idea into my mind, and now I have to consider how the irony and how the comedic value of your expressing that opinion. Unfortunately, you're not the first guy to notice this. So, I mean, Hitler knew it, and that's why cabaret is such a great piece. Because those clubs, those cabaret clubs in Germany, and if you laugh with someone, it's like – How did Hitler use that? He shut down the clubs.

Really? He shut down all – have you never seen cabaret? No. Oh, you've got to see cabaret. So these incredible German clubs. What year is that from? Well, Cabaret, like the movies, Liza Minnelli, 72 maybe. And that's what it's about?

Yeah. So these clubs, it's like the end of it is like the heartbreaker. I'm kind of ruining the ending. But it's these clubs in Germany in the 30s of like these incredible, full of life, magical people. And, you know, lots of Jewish people in those cabaret clubs telling jokes and being funny and whatever. And the Nazis realized, well, if you laugh with those people, you can't hate those people.

If you laugh with someone, like, what's that great phrase? Like, anti-Semitism cannot survive a Shabbat dinner. It can't. Like, if you've got Jewish friends and you laugh with them, what are you talking about? Anti-Semitism. But if you can make them seem like other,

then it's very dangerous. So that thing of going, nailing the landing of, I remember seeing one, Alan Cummings, doing cabaret in London. And these people that you've seen singing and dancing

and living their lives. And then at the end of the show, they're in pajamas in the snowfalls. And you realize they all got wiped out. It's like, oh. Wow. What's really horrific about human beings is how recent that was. And how we have sort of dismissed that as an artifact of time and that it's not possible today.

But it's very scary. I think there's people give themselves, not everyone, but people sort of think, well, if slavery was going on today, I'd fight it. And if Hitler was around today, I'd fight it. And you go, but he is. And there is. There's 40 million slaves currently in the world. Yeah.

More slaves in the world right now than during 1865 when they abolished slavery in America. It's horrific. And look at North Korea. That's the best example. You know, if you want to see a state where, I mean, we have very little news from there. Very few people get out, but the ones that do, it's horrific. George Orwell's 1984. It's happening right now.

Somewhere. Yeah. I mean, I kind of thought that was like an interesting idea on America's original sin is slavery. And there's no way to change the past. is slavery. And there's no way to change the past. But one thing you could do, if you can't work out reparations and people don't seem to be able to work out

what to do with that, but one thing you could do is make America's foreign policy, why don't we just stop slavery? Who couldn't get behind that? Right. Globally, to say, well, just, you've got an incredible military.

There's injustice going on in the world. That idea of being the world's policeman. I don't know. I mean, freeing slaves. Who could disagree with that? Well, who's putting up a case against it? The problem is that you're addressing the way the United States interfaces with the world as if we're just trying to do overall good. That's not really what happens with this whole empire building thing.

that's not really what happens with this whole empire building thing. It's what's really going on is controlling resources and coming up with some reason that you have to intervene in order to acquire these resources or control these resources or protect your resources. I think it's, you know what I think that is? Short money. Short money, because what's a resource? There's things that are resources now that won't be in 20 years.

You know what the biggest industry in the world was in 1903? Beavers. Very close. I'll pass you. I'll give you a C. Whaling was the biggest industry in the world in 1903. And whaling disappeared overnight. Like in a year and a half, it was gone.

Those towns were just emptied because the whale oil wasn't required anymore because suddenly we discovered petrochemicals. Electricity too. Petrochemicals was really the thing. Yeah, whale oil, electricity, Edison, all of that stuff for Tesla. It's really interesting how that industry just fell away.

It's like the story of horse manure in New York City. You know this? No. So horse manure, you know why the brownstones have got steps up to the front door? You ever wondered about that? Why is the ground floor not on the ground floor? Why is it up steps? Why? Horseshit. Really? There was

horseshit everywhere. They've always got those metal scrapers by the side. Yeah, to get the horseshit off. You know the old movies that always talk about smelling salts? There's a lot of references to smelling salts. Yeah, the smell was horrific. If a horse died in the street, you had to wait for it to atrophy to cut it up and take it away. New York was the sound. Cobbled streets, metal wheels on the carts.

Horses everywhere. So they made a law to say, right, horses, we're going to put a tax on them. Didn't change anything. Made another law the next year. We're doubling the taxes. Right, we're going to do a thing with, we're going to say, if you have a horse, then you have to do this, you have to do that. Whatever it was. Kept on, kept on, kept on.

And what stopped it? Henry Ford. Cars came along. All gone. There's five of them left in Central Park. Right. All gone in no time. Wailing disappeared over the night. That thing of like, what's a resource now? America trying to get resources overseas. I mean, I don't sound like a Boy Scout, but I think freeing slaves would be a much better thing to do than trying to get control of an oil field somewhere where you go, that's not going to be a resource in 10 years time. Yeah. The problem is it's a resource now and it's a phenomenal one in terms of the amount of money that you could acquire. But I mean,

cobalt wasn't a resource. Right. 20 years ago. Right. Now we really need cobalt. And suddenly, I mean, the things that are happening to get it at just horrific.

Yeah. I had said Darth Cara on the podcast. He's a journalist that went to the Congo to document this and brought back video footage. The Democratic Republic of Congo? Mm-hmm. Any country with Democratic in the name, that's a fucking red flag, isn't it? That's a red flag. They go, hey, we're Democratic.

Are you, though? Are you? Yeah. I mean, it's hell on earth out there. It's happening right now. I think that thing of people saying, well, I would go and make a difference. Well, there's stuff going on earth out there. It's happening right now. I think I think of like people saying, well, I would I would go and make a difference. Well, there's stuff going on now if you want to get involved. Well, what's so ironic is that it's one of the most horrific conditions that human beings are imposed that's imposed upon human beings.

But yet it is required in order for you to have a cell phone and complain about the injustices of the world. in order for you to have a cell phone and complain about the injustices of the world. Every single person that has one of these things, you have in it minerals that were carved out of the ground by people living in the most insane conditions. Child labor, slavery. And not just that, like people with babies on their back that are breathing in this cobalt dust, horrific health consequences, everything, all the above. Abject poverty, no electricity. I mean, the big thing in the world, I mean, again, gratitude. Go back to gratitude. We don't live there.

Anyone listening to a podcast is, you know, we're doing great. What can we do about it? I don't know. I mean, this is part of the anxiety of the modern world because we're surrounded by problems, told about problems, that we have no agency there. We can't sort of do anything. But it's, I don't know. I mean, it's what's going to be the next resource? Because environmentalism is clearly their right. It's fossil fuels. It needs to stop. But we've already got the downside volatility from splitting the atom. We've

already got all the weapons. We could already destroy the world. We've got all of that. Why are we not building? And the tests have been done, right? There's nuclear submarines. You know what the range is on a nuclear submarine? Yeah, it's insane. It's unlimited. It's unlimited. They can go forever. I mean, it's crazy. Why isn't every town powered by one of those? Yes. Well, people have this bad taste in their mouth because of the few disasters that have existed when nuclear power was not- Fukushima, right? Yeah. What's the death toll on Fukushima? It's very low, but the toxic pollution But I think it might be nothing. I think it's one person.

But the the toxic environmental effect of them not being able to shut down that reactor is pretty devastating. Yeah. I tell you what, it's not as devastating as fossil fuels. So it's it's as opposed to what is always burning coal. Right. So burning coal, endlessly burning coal. Yeah. And anyone that says the environmental problem can be fixed by us cutting back is living in a dream world. Right. Because you go,

well, you can't deny like that we owe a debt to future generations and we owe a debt to people that are in different geographies to us. Like there's no way you can say with good conscience, well, you need to cut back China and India.

I mean, most people in the world, a third of the world don't have flushing toilets. Like, they're living in poverty. So the idea that they won't need energy is insane. Insane. And we've nailed the technology. And we just never, we got nervous. But it's worse than that.

Germany shut down their nuclear power plants. I mean, people shut them down because there's this negative connotation. There's this negative association that people have with nuclear. Well, I mean, I don't know about,

I'm not an expert, but Fukushima, I think, was a 40-year-old technology. Yes. There is new tech in that now. Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't understand why, like the big oil companies,

why isn't someone, like instead of just going, you've got to, every time there's an oil spill, you've got to clean up the seabirds better, or, you know, the Gulf of Mexico disaster was horrific what happened. You go, why don't you just say you've got to invest half of your profits in nuclear? Take it private. Private seems to get things done quicker than governments. Yeah. The real problem is there's still an insane amount of money to be made from fossil fuels.

You know, there's a desire for it and there's a market for it. And people are already making money doing it. I don't know, though. But, okay, so if you want ants, put down sugar. and there's a market for it and people are already making money doing it. I don't know though. But okay. So if you want ants, put down sugar. The incentives need to be there. So let's put down some... BP could be the next traditional oil major

to invest in the quickly evolving nuclear fusion sector. Join a list of companies including Chevron, E&I, and... But that happened after I said it, right? May 19th. I said... What a list of companies, including Chevron, E&I, and... But that happened after I said it, right? I said, what? A few months ago. Ah, change the date. Jesus. That would, I think that's kind of the, because those guys you go, would you buy stock in Shell Oil today? I wouldn't. Because if you, like, if you're buying stocks and you said, look, I'm going to leave my kids a bunch of stocks and shares, what do I think is going to be there in 30 years' time? Yeah.

I'm sure. And I don't know whether it'll be like someone gluing themselves to a jumbo jet. I think it's going to be someone goes, there's more money to be made, like in New York with Henry Ford and like the whaling industry. more money to be made, like in New York with Henry Ford, and like the whaling industry. You know, if those guys want to make money, they worked for Rockefeller. Well, obviously they realize that as well,

which is why they're investing so much money. But I love the idea of that. I've gone, well, we could be a generation that goes, look, do you see Oppenheimer? I haven't seen it yet, no. I heard it's amazing. Is it out on iTunes yet? Can you get in? That's the problem. You've got to go to a movie theater. But it's worth going to a movie theater. No, I'm sure's amazing. Is it out on iTunes yet? Can you get in? That's the problem.

You've got to go to a movie theater. But it's worth going to a movie theater. No, I'm sure it is. I think that thing with Christopher Nolan movies as well. You kind of go, it's a bit like, I don't know, Tarantino or Kubrick. Like that thing of like, you know, when movies you go, I wish I'd been there to see Kubrick movies on the big screen back in the day. I remember seeing the last Tarantino. I remember going really clearly to

Once Upon a Time in America and going, well, how many movies has this guy got left? Maybe three or four. Because they take a long time to make. I think only one. I think he's decided. We said one, but please. Make more. But sitting in the movie theater, I haven't seen this movie. It's my first time seeing it. I know I'm going to see it four or five times.

And it's such a... Yeah, it's the way it's meant to be seen. It's so special. With the sound and the immense screen. Yeah. It's the way it's meant to be seen.

It's incredible. It's incredible. I think the Nolan things as well for me. I mean, you know, whether you've got favorites or not, but visually,

just it's stunning. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely no I'm definitely gonna see it I just going to the movie theater to me it's just last time I went to see a movie I brought my kids to see Barbie and there was a group of people just talking just talking out loud right and someone had to shut them up and just a lot of people were frustrated before they shut them up and you know it's like that thing. Rude people.

It is. It's tricky that, like, do you intervene or not? Right. And you can see how. Yeah, people get in fights. And it's like, and it's not worth getting in a fight over. But you go, especially if you're telling someone off and going, oh, guys. Be quiet, please.

Sometimes you get it in comedy shows where you go. I've done it before where we went to see a show in the West End of London, and a lot of people at the show had never been out to the theater before because it attracted a broader audience. And, like, so people were on their phones and people were kind of chatting a little bit, but you kind of went, okay, but they're learning this thing. Like, no one's expected to get it the first time. Right.

But you go, there's a certain etiquette to this. It's like you go to a comedy club, the first time you're there, you might think, yeah, because you're used to watching it on Netflix. So you can chat and be on your phone and then you're told

and the second time you know what's going on. Like it feels like something, but would you tell it, I'm in an American theater? I wouldn't, you've got open carry here. I wouldn't take the risk. Yeah,

it does happen. People definitely get in fights in movie theaters. And that's why. Some people are just very rude. They don't give a fuck about other people's experiences. And that's this sort of agreement that you make when you go to a movie theater is that you're going to be polite and you're going to sit there and enjoy the film and you're not going to disrupt it for other people.

Some people don't care. think it's i think it's uh i think people are fundamentally good yes and i think that thing of they've not realized that and they're embarrassed because they got caught out like if i mean sometimes like you know 14 15 year old kids might just be they didn't give a fuck whatever they're in they're in their thing and they're fronting great but i think most people most grown people go go, oh, yeah, shit, sorry. But you can't say that because it's that weird status game you get into. That kind of, did you read that Will's store book, The Status Game? No.

Really good. Like really interesting about like there's kind of a weird status game going on in every interaction in life. It's his premise. Yeah, there is. Like there's that weird thing when you go into a coffee shop, you order a coffee and someone comes in after you and they get served their coffee before you get yours. No. No. What the fuck is going on here?

Right. That weird reaction of going, you're never going to see them again. You don't know who this is. And somehow yet you're annoyed and perturbed again. You don't know who this is. And somehow yet you're annoyed and perturbed by that because our egos are quite fragile. But realizing we're in those status games all the time. So that thing of like, why fights in cinemas? Because there's a weird status game going on with a perfect stranger you're never going to see again. Just silencing you. But that thing, I mean, you've done martial arts or whatever, and I think that thing that that teaches kids should really be,

again, we should teach comedy in schools. I think martial arts would be a great shout because the guys I know that have done that very rarely get into fights. Yeah. It's very rare. It would stop bullying, believe it or not. It sounds counterintuitive, but most bullies bully because they're insecure and they want other people to feel bad so that they feel powerful because they don't feel powerful.

And if you could just teach them martial arts, they wouldn't do that. Most of them. There are a few that would. Yeah. But that's always just going to have people. There's just such a spectrum of psychological issues that some people have. Yeah. But most people, if you taught the martial arts, the difficulty of doing it, first of all,

it drains all of the anxiety and stress out of your body because it's so physically demanding. So you're more calm and peaceful because of that. It's an interesting thing when you think about what, I suffer a little bit with anxiety, not so much the last while, but I have done historically. And it's that anxiety, what is it? Yeah.

Well, you're trying to solve a future problem now something that hasn't happened it's like a counterfactual in your head yeah something that an imagined problem and you're trying to solve that and your mind if you have a creative mind is whirring away yes trying to do that and you're trying to right and you're obsessing on yeah you're obsessing about this thing and so giving yourself something to do in the moment, if you have to bench press something, I'm afraid it's very difficult to worry about the imagined future problem. Right. You're in the moment. Yeah.

And I presume even more so. I've never done martial arts, but even more so if someone has got you in a headlock. 100%. And you're having to tap out. 100%. Yeah. And it teaches you discipline. Tap out.

100%. Yeah. And it teaches you discipline. There's a lot of things that bullies need and people that are insecure need. I mean, one of the more fascinating— It's a very interesting perspective there to go—because our thing is on dealing with bullying. It's the people that are bullied come forward and tell someone. But actually, that's a very interesting point because upstream of that is the bully. And what the fuck is going on there?

Most of them are abused. You'd be much more upset to hear that your kid is a bully than is being bullied. I mean, they're both bad. Yeah, they're both bad. They're both bad. But if your kid's a bully, it's like, ah, fuck. Yeah.

He's a dick. Or you've raised someone who's victimizing others. Something bad happened to your kid is bad. Yes. Your kid doing something bad is worse, I would argue. So that thing of going, how do we do something for them? Right. Listen, there'll be young people listening.

If you have that in you, go to that. Go to discipline. Yes. Go to discipline. Yes. Yeah. And learn how to conquer those demons. And most bullies have been abused. The vast majority of them have been physically abused. Something happened to them and now they want to impose it on other people.

It's very sad. It's very sad. And it causes so many suicides and so many people's wrecked lives. I met people that have never gotten over experiences that they had in grade school. Yeah. It's an epidemic. I mean, the suicide epidemic is so bad. And that line, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It's just a lack of perspective. It's a lack of being able to see. Yes. You want this feeling to end. Not life. Right. This feeling. And this too shall pass.

You'll get through it. There's another side to this. Yes. Your perspective is just. But in that moment, it's so locked in. It's just, it's a horrible place to find yourself in. It is. And it's so difficult to understand someone else's perspective too

because we all have a certain amount of discomfort in our life, a certain amount of anxiety, a certain amount of depression. And with some people, it's just insurmountable. Yeah. I think it's, yeah, that thing of like how difficult is it for them. And you kind of can't understand. I mean, we've had quite a lot of friends, I mean, in the comedy world, um, that have taken their own lives. And I always think the surprising thing is how few people in comedy haven't. It's like, we should see what comedy does for people because a lot of people are drawn to it. They're drawn to that light because of the darkness.

And it's amazing, actually, the cathartic nature of what we do. And sadly, some people still do. Yeah, it's so devastating when someone who's loved, like a Robin Williams type person does it. I don't think as well. I don't think you can make the pain go away. If you commit suicide, all you can do is dissipate that pain. And the people that you love, they will experience that pain. It's like it's an energy force that goes, okay, it's got to be felt by someone. It's just, it's so awful. Yeah. I first experienced suicide when I was on news radio when I was on a sitcom one of the

writers who's a good friend of mine killed himself he's going through some marital thing and called his wife on the phone and shot himself in the head why he's on the phone with his wife and knowing that it was just so devastating it was just so horrible because he was such a great guy. What was he called? What was his name? Yeah. Drew. Drew.

Yeah, I don't want to put his last name out there. I always think it's nice to, you know, that old thing of like you die twice. You die when you die and you die the last time someone says your name. Yeah. It's nice to remember people. You know, Drew jumps up. I wish he hadn't. Yeah.

But it's that thing. It's nice to remember people, I think, when, you know. Yeah. It's a horrible pain to go through. I mean, it's, you know. It's so confusing, though, when you love a guy and you think he's a great person and you really love being around him. You're happy when you see him. And then either whatever the hell they're going through is just in their mind.

But that, like, the most important relationship you're going to have in your life is the relationship you have for yourself. And the way some people treat themselves and their internal dialogue and how they speak to themselves, they would never treat another person like that. Right. It's awful. And like that circle of compassion that they had, you know, the good to everyone else in their life. And yet they can't

be good to themselves right they can't include themselves in that group yeah there's somehow just a voice yeah and it's you know there's a lot of factors too and how they grew up and well i mean yeah there's there's environmental but also there's genetic things i mean some people are have a predisposition towards depression. I mean, I also think there's that thing of like there's things that get conflated, like depression and sadness. Like in my mid-20s, I thought at the time I was depressed. I was working for a big company. I hadn't started doing comedy yet.

I hadn't found what I wanted to do in my life. And I thought I was depressed. And I wasn't. I was sad. And being sad is somehow less socially acceptable than being depressed but being sad is great because when you're sad it's like circumstantial i don't like the circumstance that i find myself in yes but you can do something about that yeah if you have a depression a serotonin imbalance in your head that's that's a hard fucking road it's a hard fucking road it It's a hard fucking road. It really is.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do hear great things about, I mean, I've got a mutual friend of ours that was clinically depressed for 25 years. And is better because he did some ayahuasca. It's extraordinary. I think that's the other thing maybe we'll see in the next 10 years that the medical establishment, someone's someone up high in Pfizer is going, you know what? I think we could cure this. You know, that thing of whatever's in ayahuasca, I don't know what it's made from, but someone's going to be going, OK, that experience that people are having, like the microdosing mushrooms that they're giving to veterans and having incredible results with PTSD and, you know, reintegrating those guys is phenomenal.

I mean, it's amazing. It feels like that will be. We talked about the Overton window a bunch of times today, but that thing of like pushing this conversation, pushing what is acceptable to talk about what what people can do yes and that is a great example of that overton window because that was not acceptable to talk about just a few decades ago no just a few years ago yeah i mean really after timothy leary it all got shut down and kind of okay the classification for drugs went crazy. It strikes me that the – you know that William Gibson, the sci-fi writer? I've heard of him. He said this brilliant thing. He said, the future is here, but it's not evenly distributed.

I've heard that about the apocalypse. But the idea that you go, okay, well, the apocalypse comes to us all. Yeah, well, the apocalypse is here. It's just not here. Okay. It's in the Congo. Yeah. Yeah. No. Okay. Well, I mean, it's in the Congo. Yeah. But yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But that idea of going, we kind of have best practice in everything you care about somewhere in the world. Yes. So like Portugal is my favorite example of this. So Portugal, Lisbon,

the drug laws, Lisbon used to be the roughest. I mean, one of the roughest towns in Europe. It was like, it's a port city. It was a big heroin town. It was rough. And I think 15 years ago now, they they legalized all drugs. Yes. And here's the thing. That's where the story ends for a lot of people. But that's

not what happened. What they did was they legalized all drugs. They figured out how much money they were spending on the war on drugs. And they spent it all on rehabs and education and facilities. I brought up that argument about America. I mean, that's the cure to the fentanyl crisis, is if they legalize drugs in America and put all the money that they're in, like... People don't want to be on it. They want to be in rehab. So you go, all of the DEA law enforcement stuff goes into therapeutic things. No one seems to get addicted to mushrooms and ayahuasca. Then once you get the message, you hang up the phone. Right. So that thing of like, whatever the method is that works for you, it might be 12 step.

It could be some psychotropic, whatever it is, whatever works for you. But imagine the research that could go into that with that budget. And you go, look, you're not going to win the war on drugs. You don't even, like, there's prisons, high security, category A prisons, and they've got drugs in them. You can't even keep the drugs out of there. Good luck with the borders. Yeah. It strikes me as like you go, just admit you're not going to win that fight.

Right. And what are we going to do? And that best practice of going, well, that's going on in Portugal now. They've done a 15-year test case. We know it works. I mean, Lisbon now. Have you been to Lisbon? No.

You've got Lisbon. Yeah. Food is, I mean, I mean, the Portuguese. It's fabulous. Such a great city. Such a great city. Such a great city. Lisbon and Porto. I mean, I don't really know the rest of Portugal that well,

but they're both phenomenal places to play gigs, and they love stand-up comedy. It's just a wonderful place. Isn't it crazy that that little country was conquering the world at one point in time? Sorry, I'm from Great Britain. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Yeah, you guys did too. We had a great run. It wasn't bad. I'll tell you what we used to own. This. Sort of. Crazy. Yeah, you guys did too. We had a great run. It wasn't bad. I'll tell you what we used to own. This. Sort of. Crazy. Yeah.

Crazy, right? It is crazy. It's crazy how empires rise and fall. And that's one of the things that people are wondering currently about America. If we're in the last throes of a dying empire. Well, here's my, I got a hot take on this. Please. I don't think they do.

So I don't think the Roman Empire fell. I think it became a church. I think the, so the Rome fell, but the Roman Empire became the church. Where's all the money from the Roman Empire? The Vatican. In the basement of the Vatican is where it is. Yeah. I don't think the British.

The Vatican. Yeah. Poof. It's incredible. Bizarre. It's incredible. Bizarre. It's incredible. A city within a city. The wealth, the sheer wealth in art is overwhelming.

Yeah. Like St. Peter's Basilica, when I walked in there, my mouth was open the entire time I was there. You just can't believe the amount of craftsmanship, the architecture, the art, the painting. Well, I mean, if you think about culturally what happened, every song, every painting was about God until 100 years ago. And now every song is about love. I think they're talking about the same thing, but that's me being an old hippie. So Roman Empire became a church. British Empire became a bank.

So we gave our empire back. We said, oh, yeah, sorry. Sorry about that. You can have that back. We gave, you know, Saudi Arabia back and all these other places that we'd sort of taken the resources. And then they had their own money. And then we went, oh, what are you doing with that money? Because we've got this thing called the City of London. I'll tell you what, it's your money, but we're going to hold it.

We'll have it over here. Is that OK? Yeah, fine. Great. So we've still got that thing of like, and culturally, I think, you know, America is, I mean, America's extraordinary. It's an extraordinary place. It's kind of based on this amazing premise. It strikes me that America is, it's better now, objectively, than it has ever been. And subjectively, worse than it's ever been. So you go, the experience, it seems bad, but objectively, when you look at the metrics, it's good.

So that's kind of Steven Pinker thing. But I mean, subjectivity is important. Like people aren't, people feel like they're at war. And actually this is the land of milk and honey. You know, it's, and I think it's still got a bit of that thing of like the, you know, Austin, Texas maybe has it as much as anywhere. It's, it's, it's whispering, you know, go and be yourself. Yeah.

The pursuit of happiness. Yeah. It's still got that kind of, that, that dream. Well, I'm always fascinated how people from other parts of the world see it. That's what's interesting. when someone comes here and they just like look around like i had the trigonometry guys here the other day oh yeah yeah francis and constantin and when we were here and we were coming to the club they're like mate this place is incredible like they're just the freedom that you guys have and the the wildness that's in the

air like it's so it's so intoxicating and exciting like this is something something's really happening here well you know it's that it's a beacon it's always been a bit of a beacon america because it's kind of founded on an idea and you know it's that it's it the devil's in the detail well i always think of the statue of liberty you've ever seen there's a thing in in paris in the uh the musee d'orze there's the model. I always think of the Statue of Liberty. You ever see, there's a thing in Paris, in the Musée d'Orsay. There's the model. They made a model of the,

because it was crowdfunded, the Statue of Liberty. It was a gift from the people of France to the people of America, right? Kind of post-revolution. They thought, well, that's a good idea. Yeah, we'll get them something nice. We'll get them a nice statue. So they funded it.

The French people gave money. And the thing, when you see it, when you see the model of the Statue of Liberty, you realize she's not just carrying a torch. She's walking forward. You realize she's moving forward. And it kind of changes it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, there'll be, I think there's potential for, I mean, I think America hasn't seen its finest days yet.

I would hope. I would hope as well as well I mean Britain has to find a new place in the world but you know the Brexite and everything happened we need to find you know its purpose like I think with people with nations with the world it's like finding purpose is very important yeah and what's the next you know purpose gonna be how are we gonna in? What's our place going to be? Yeah. Let's end there. It's perfect.

Fun talking. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Appreciate you, brother. Thank you very much. Thanks for being here. Oh, tell everybody about your tour. Oh, I'm shilling a tour.

Yeah, okay. Hi. Hi. My name's... Now, now, I know we talked a lot about suicide, but I'm a really funny guy. Come see me live. That's a gear change, isn't it? It is. Yeah. If you care to

buy the best, come and see me live. I'm a one-liner guy. Very edgy. I'm on Netflix. Check me out before you come to the show. It might not be for you. It might be. You're a very funny guy. Alright. I'm a fan. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you, man. My pleasure. All right.

Bye, everybody.