The Joe Rogan Experience - #2140 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Francis Foster is a writer and stand-up comic. Konstantin Kisin is a political commentator and author of "An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West." They are the hosts of the podcast and YouTube program "TRIGGERnometry."  www.francisfoster.co.uk www.konstantinkisin.com www.triggerpod.co.uk https://www.youtube.com/@triggerpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Joe Rogan Experience Trained by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day! Hello my British friends. What the fuck's happening? Good to see you guys. Good to be back, man. It's uh, the world just, I always hope that next time we see each other things will calm down. things will calm down. Have a happy podcast. Where we're not freaking out and filled with existential crisis and doom. It's kind of weird, right?

Like, life is good, but the world's on fire. Uh-huh. I think that's one of the reasons why life is good. It's a fucked up thought, but I really believe that we only appreciate true, like, camaraderie and community and friendship if there's like a real feeling of possible doom like hovering in the air and the times where you could just be together have a drink with friends and hug each other that's when it really feels good like when when when things are too easy I think people find more problems and get filled with more

anxiety but when there's real fear then you could look at your friends like I love you man it's like we can die tonight it could be all over yeah no one's talking about the trans debate in Afghanistan you know what I mean hundred percent yeah a hundred percent they've solved that Really not interested in drag queen story hour Just fucking shoot you and throw you in a burn pit Like shut up No, it is it's so interesting like it's Schools are like that if you go into a really nice school with really nice kids the teachers hate each other

They're all they're gonna can you believe what he said about her and she said about him and that they're you know what they're doing in their lesson they're not following the syllabus when you work in a shit storm where every time you walk into the building you're like it's not on fire you know what you've got more friends than ever in the staff room because you have to be together yeah I think that's a real issue with human beings I think we're just so hardwired to be prepared for tribal conflict, predators attacking. I think it's just inescapable in the very fiber of our core. Like whatever it is, whatever our DNA is, whatever epigenetic memory,

whatever the fuck is in our system, it just seems to expect horrible things happening and if they're not, they find mundane things to be horrible. Microaggressions, the dumbest shit to be upset with because you don't have real shit to be upset with. And so you go looking, and then also the, one of the things with microaggressions and a lot of those things is people find value, like perceived value in being a victim of something and so they they start pushing and they realize I'm getting results by pushing it like

We were talking earlier about people that like kind of create fake narratives because they like they see a grift They see a business to get into it's not really their opinion and how annoying those people are to talk to that's what that is It's like you're not really upset. You just know that you can say you're upset and then people go, oh, I'm sorry you're upset. And then all of a sudden we have this little scenario where you're the highlight. You're getting focus on you. And online it's not just all you're upset. It's like you're upset, here's a million dollars and 10 billion clicks on your video, right?

So the incentive structures are pushing this and you see it I think happening across the political spectrum now where people are really going heavy on the victimhood like we are oppressed, there's a conspiracy against me etc and it gets rewarded. 100% and it's a weakness and it's a sign of a society that has not really experienced too much conflict on its actual soil. Our conflict is all self-created. Our conflict is all crime in our own communities. Our conflict is all defund the police. Our conflict is, you know, whatever. There's not real, the shit that's happening in Ukraine right now, or the shit that's happening in Israel right now. Like, that's real conflict.

And when you don't have real conflict, you find conflict, unfortunately. Yeah, it's kind of the way we're programmed We're programmed to want to search for conflict look for conflict engage in conflict Yeah, and it's always a way just to take it back to the start from point I found it so interesting on a Psychological level that people would bicker about the smallest of things and they would blow it up into this big thing Because it was easy to teach. You had an easy job comparatively speaking.

You're not going to get that upset about a microaggression when someone's about to throw a chair at your head. Because you're dealing with an aggression aggression. People need shit to do. They really do. Yeah. I almost feel like there should be a nationally mandated morning run that everybody has to go on like the whole country Seven o'clock in the morning. Everyone's got a run a mile. I know that's that's miles not even that far But just fucking one mile everybody You know much better the country's attitude would be if there if we all agreed that to have like a mandated

Morning workout together. It sounds crazy, like that's the solution, but what it is, it's injecting a difficult, a physically and mentally difficult thing to do first, especially for people that are out of shape, to do first thing in the morning. A physical mental challenge, the first thing of your day. And I guarantee, the rest of the day, people will be like, eh, what's the big deal?

A lot of the things would be like, what's the big deal? And also, you'd realize the value of doing something that's difficult to do, which most people don't do, ever. Most people run away from that, like it's a fucking nuclear fire. I think one of the other reasons as well that people are struggling meaning and purpose is that you know this whole thing about the population

not being replaced enough and we're not having enough kids. Well, it's not so much that women aren't having as many kids as they used to, it's that fewer women are having kids. That means far fewer people are now parents. And like when you become a parent, it sort of changes your outlook on things. and if you had the lack of meaning and purpose you quickly find it at least in providing for this tiny thing that is

entirely dependent on you I've certainly found that. I found that too I think I think it also opens up a I mean for lack of better term like a window in your soul where you understand love and like Dave Chappelle said to me once we were talking about having kids, we were in the back of the comedy store and he said, not only has it increased the amount of love, he goes, it's increased my capacity for love. I'm like, that's brilliant, that's it, that's what it is. It changes everything.

It changes everything. Changes everything. And also you realize like, oh, these are all babies. Everybody's a baby that grew up. I had that exact experience where I was like I started seeing people and now I go oh they were like my son once yeah and it just put me in a completely different place in term made me 80% more compassionate the same yeah I find it harder to judge people I still do it do you have any kids no I don't have when you're ready to shoot a live one into a nice young lady.

You put it so romantically. I like that. That's biology mixed with hunting. That's your brand brother. That's Joe Rogan right there. That's hilarious. You should do it. Do you have a lady friend? Not at the moment, no. But I'm looking.

I'm on the market. This podcast is mainly what you might see. Your DMs after this are gonna be full. Let's fucking go. Come on, son. I've been trying to get him on that bandwagon for a while now, so we're working on it. It's like picking a career. Don't go down the wrong path.

You go down the wrong path and you're a fucking accountant and you're fully invested and you got a mortgage and all this bullshit and you got a family to take care of but you really want to be a comic? Francis, you're fucked. You know, you're fucked. And if you go all the way down the road with a bad woman and a woman that you're not compatible with, or maybe you together a bad whatever the fuck it is, find a good one. it is, find a good one. I mean that took a head, that took some twists and turns that conversation, Joe, I'm going to be honest. Yeah. Because we went from finding a live one, which was, I can do that. It's good, but you don't want to ruin your life. That is true. I, look, I'm very fortunate, I love my wife to death.

I have friends that are in hell. They're in hell. And I have friends that are in hell and they stay for the kids, and I have friends that are in hell and they stay for the kids and I have friends that are in hell And they're not even didn't have kids. It's there's like and they both do it to each other It's not just the man. It's not just the woman. It's like some people just don't work together. It just doesn't work And if you get one of those pregnant dude and one of those pregnant, dude. And then they do things to hurt you and you try to hurt

each other and they try to get more money out of you and they want to take you to court and they want to turn your kids against you and oh, I can tell you horror stories, but I won't because some of them are too personal to, you know, my friends stories. But one of them is just so fucking insane. I mean, I can't even get into it, but it ruined his life. It did took 15 years to resolve it completely destroyed his life completely destroyed him financially Yeah, just a crazy lady. Yeah That's the other thing that becoming a parent does to you is it makes you more vulnerable because you now have this thing that you Care about more than anything

But that's good for people. Yeah,. But we're not selling marriage very well here. It's not a good thing to sell. If I was an investment banker, if I was a guy who ran your portfolio and I was looking at marriage, I was like, I don't recommend it. I recommend it romantically, I recommend it spiritually, I recommend it for your soul if you could find a soulmate. But if you don't find a real soulmate, it's like what are the numbers? The numbers are crazy. What's the number that end up in divorce? It's more than half, right?

Half of marriages but not half of people. So the way it works is like people are serial divorcees, basically, they skew the stats massively. So if you get married, your chances of getting divorced are not 50%. But statistically speaking, half of all marriages get end in divorce, because the guys who are getting divorced over and over and over.

That's interesting. So it's not that bad Francis is what we're saying. Well I have one friend who had a terrible first marriage and an amazing second marriage. Right. Yeah and sometimes people need to go through that evolution where they need to make mistakes and sometimes it's not even the partners fault it's just they went into this union at the wrong time for them for whatever reason. Yeah well sometimes Yeah, so sometimes it's you too like you you have that bad relationship You go you know what at any time along the way? I could of course corrected and made this better And I did and in the next really like I really liked her in the beginning like what the fuck happened

But you could really remember what it's like When you first meet someone and you're really into them and just sort of keep that forever like when you first meet someone and you're really into them and just sort of keep that forever Isn't it possible to just keep appreciating that person like that forever? Most people don't do that. They get like really used to stuff really used to people and Then I also think there's a part of the like if you're full of shit that person knows you're full of shit because they live With you. Yeah, you know and then you have to face the fact that you're full of shit in their eyes every day. You're like, fuck that bitch, she doesn't even believe in me. The next thing you know, you're getting your kids on the weekend. You got to work on the relationship, I think. Like my wife and I have had to do that for

sure. We're very different and so we have to really work at it. But what you're saying about appreciating and not taking for granted, it's hard to do, but it's the most important thing to do. I think that's with all of life. I mean, that's that corny ass word, gratitude, that got co-opted by those wooden bead-wearing douchebags. Those motherfuckers, they took gratitude from us. But it's like such an important principle of humility, like gratitude and humility. Like those are like to just like appreciate things, appreciate. Like the other day it was, it's been beautiful weather here. And the other day it rained and the

next day everything was a vibrant green. And I was just outside going, God, this is amazing. Like this is just view of just the vibrancy of this life these trees and the grass and just take it in every now and then just take it and fucking enjoy this beautiful experience if you were on your deathbed right now if you were some 98 year old guy with nothing left looking back at you at this age you'd, God damn, why didn't I have more fun? You know, that's it. I have this kind of like epiphany once on psychedelics and it was just, I just think we don't have enough fun. We just don't. And I'm as guilty of this as the rest of people where I'm just like, right, I'm going to do here and you know, and I've

got to do like this spot or whatever else. So you've got to do and I've got to make sure that it's got to be perfect and it's got to do this spot or whatever else, so you've got to do it and I've got to make sure that it's got to be perfect and it's got to do this and this and this and you go, is that actually what I got into this for? Did I actually get into to be so rigid, to live my life on train tracks or did I get into it to play, have fun, meet people, enjoy life? I mean that's why we started this, that's why we did this, that's why we set up podcasts, that's why we did stand up. It's because we wanted a life that was fun. Well said. As well said as you could say it. I think there's delaying gratitude, right?

So the thing about the difficult work, difficult work of like putting together a set or putting together a joke, like I literally fell asleep in my fucking keyboard last night as Sitting in front of Microsoft Word, and I just nodded out. I'm like fuck go to bed because it was pretty late Hmm, but I don't want to do that. You know what I want to do I want to go watch car videos on YouTube. I want to watch professional pool matches I want to watch that. I don't want to sit there and fucking fester over material But I know I have to do it you have to the only way it feels really good when it kills is if it sucks for a long time in front of a computer it

doesn't always suck it's like sucks for a few minutes until you get flowing and then you like then you're into the process of it and then it's stimulating but there's that weird resistance you know that thing then from the war of art that Pressfield talks about there's a part of us that like resists so and what does he say that is Joe man Pressfield talks about it almost like in he he talked have you read more of art no I've got a bunch of copies because I've recommended so much that he sent me like a box of cut we bought a box back in the LA studio now give it to comedians I'm like just read this it's We bought a box back in the LA studio and I would give it to comedians. I'm like, just read this.

It's a really easy read. It's a short book and it'll show you what's, there's a thing that fucks with people, whatever this resistance is, there's something about the human psyche that puts off doing things that you know you're supposed to do. And resistance to writing is particularly aggressive for whatever reason and Pressfield talks about it like he essentially gives you tools and he says you're gonna be a professional and you're gonna think of yourself as a professional and as a professional we go to work and when we

go to work we sit in front of the computer we summon the muse and he believes in the muse he doesn't believe in it just as like just pretend it's a muse and that way you could be creative He's like no if you treat it like it's real It is real like the muse is a real thing if you just show up every day at a certain time and put in the time Ideas will come to you. They're not gonna come every day. It's not gonna be like picking strawberries and God's open field No, it's gonna be this weird thing. But if you do it enough, if you treat it like it is a muse, it will perform as a muse does. And if you do the work, you you will reap these rewards. And it gives you like this sort of like very simple,

well outlined sort of guide to how to do that. That's really interesting. It resonates a lot with me because when I'm, I write a lot of sub stack articles now and that works really well. And all I do is I sit down, I know I've got two hours and within five minutes it starts flowing. Yeah. The first five minutes like.

Yeah. It really helps if I came into it with an existing idea already and then I can just go and flesh it out Yeah, you know that resonates a lot Ari Shafir used to have this quote on his laptop I think it's Hemingway and it said the first draft of everything is shit. I Think it's every way is that having ways quote Even if it isn't that's still true But I already had that as a sticker like on the script like right below his screen

With the space between the screen the keyboard Do you know one thing that I find for creativity as well in the way of getting good ideas is it's so important Yeah, it's Hemingway the first yeah Is it's so important to play? The first, yeah. It's so important to play. It's so important to play. So if you just, I find it really helpful to go for a walk, maybe grab a coffee, don't listen to music, don't listen to anything, and just walk. And things that have happened in your day, you'll just notice certain things. Like a couple of days ago, I was in the gym with uh gold gym and RFK jr came in with like five dudes in jeans a polo shirt and came in and then he was on the on the bench I was on the bench

and he obliterated me and then just left again and I was like that's so funny there's something there that a guy who's in his mid 70s comes in dominates me leaves He's mid 70s. Yeah, I think he's just 70. Oh is he 70? Is he mid 70s? Holy shit. He looks about 55. Yeah. How old is he? He's 70. He looks about 55 man. Yeah. Yeah, he well he's very fit He works out a lot, but in jeans, which is very gimmicky I don't like it. I would recommend sweatpants or shorts. What are we doing? Why you wearing jeans?

Do you know they make better stuff for working out? If you wear jeans to me that tells me you work out Kinda like you know, there's no way you're sweating in jeans You know, there's no way you're running five miles in the treadmill in jeans You're just not gonna do that so you're only getting to a certain level of workout if you're wearing jeans Period what if he's just doing weights? Yeah, you could just do weights. Yeah, you could just do weights with jeans But you shouldn't just do weights you should you should

Cardio should be like vitamins like you need it like you need everything else. Like you need protein, you need fats, like you need vitamins. You need cardio. Cardio is important. Your system should be stressed. Your system should be able to perform work for long periods of time. If it can't, it's a bad system. And if you just want a system that looks good at the beach, that's dumb. That's dumb. That's a stupid thing. Like you can have both things. You could have a system that looks good at the beach, that's dumb. That's dumb That's a stupid thing like you can have both things You could have a system that looks good at the beach But also have a system that can you can run you could do stuff you could put in like You if you have to hike somewhere you can make it there. Some people won't make it

You know, like if that's one thing to understand like you're trying to get over a mountain Not everybody's gonna make it. There's a lot of us that are out there in society listening to this right now that can't go over a hill, a really big hill. That's crazy. That's crazy. So if you go to the gym and you just do like bench press

and you just do like fuckin' trap pull downs and shit and you got a big upper body and then you can't go over a hill and you could die like something's chasing you You can't get away like that's dumb That's really stupid when you could have just had both yeah I mean he's got a security team of five people so I'm not old

But I mean yeah, don't work on jeans Yeah, this is just my advice just work out in a way where you can't wear jeans because they're so uncomfortable because you're sweating Yeah, and if you're not doing that then I mean maybe does jeans for others. Maybe does no jeans for others Maybe swims maybe gets cardio in in another way and that's just what he likes to do to maybe he just wore jeans this one time But let me just say also I'm a hypocrite because one of my favorite guys to watch online is this guy Tom Haviland And this guy is this psycho that lives in Australia And he was some Australia Special Forces guy. I think he's

What is he like six nine? 360 pounds and he wears like work clothes when he works out and he's squatting like I don't know a Thousand pounds or something and carrying giant fucking barrels and shit like he's a freak But he everything he does in like work boots and work pants and work shirts He he wanted me to he's not also a former special forces. Why do they keep saying that? I don't know okay? What is he? I don't know you just wanted He texted me and said oh you got a phone number no So why so that was just one of those wild internet rumors, so thanks for all the recent message messages. What is his background? So whatever this guy's background he's a fucking freak

I mean He's like the weirdest least what might be one of the strongest humans alive and look everything he does is this this stuff everything he does is like with work clothes on you got a bulletproof vest on no it's a weight vest to wait yeah wow so he does a lot of weird like off balance off-angle stuff a lot of weird farmers carries with like super heavy weight, but he's freakishly strong man and gigantic. Oh my that vertical is insane. That's a vertical for an almost 400 pound man. You understand how big that guy is? Wow.

Yeah my dick is where his face is or his dick is where my face is rather. Like look look at the size of that He put up his diet one time and it had something insane like 400 grams of protein for the day or something Whoa, yeah, like his whole feed is this kind of shit like weird kind of bizarre weightlifting movements zircher squats Farmers carries and he's got an interesting philosophy about that. I think what I'd read, I don't know if this is disinformation too, but it's like carrying things apparently is very underrated in terms of like your ability to like increase your overall strength. Like

walking with things is really good, which a lot of people don't do. You know, like actually like picking up weight and carrying it around is very good for you just your overall general strength. And is that because you're using the micro muscles that you don't if you're in one position just going... Like you know how they do those farmers carries you know a lot of people do them with a kettlebell in each hand and I do that too but they say one of the best ways to do is actually a kettlebell in one hand and then just go back the other way with it in the other hand because it's really awkward because you're not balancing it out with the weight on the other side

So all of your stabilizer muscles have to work overtime to keep that thing in a certain position Whereas it would be kind of like locked out with both arms if you had the weight in both hands Do you know I was watching RFK jr. Workout, and I was like that's so American Can you imagine Ritchie Sunak doing that? Who's Ritchie Sunak? Ritchie Sunak is the Prime Minister of Britain. He's our leader. He's this little dweeb, you know, he'll walk in. Yeah, the meek shall inherit the earth.

It's in the Bible. The only real way you would see him is if he went to a Pilates class or legs, bums and tums. You know what I mean? He wouldn't do that either. Legs, bums and tums. Is that a class you guys have? That's hilarious. I mean it's mostly populated by women as you can imagine. Oh I'd imagine. Or creeps. It's a good combination. Lots of women some creeps. I was gonna tell a story about when I went to a legs bums and tums class but let's move on. How many have you gone to? I went with my ex-girlfriend because I took the piss out of her. And I was like, legs, bums and thumbs. She went, all right, come along. Let's do it together.

Come on, let's see. Oh. Ten minutes in, I was dead. Yeah, yoga will humble you. Try that. People think yoga is easy. Yeah. Yoga is hard as shit. Oh, yeah, we did yoga for a while and he had he was he couldn't walk straight for about three months after he fucked his back No, you gotta be careful with that Yeah

It's a thing there's certain positions like that one when you're standing up and you have hold your foot out extended Like you have a weak lower back that one could be really tricky. I think it was something like that Yeah, that's not something you should just jump right into no But the problem is you see women in their 70s smashing it in the yoga class You're like mm-hmm Doris if you could do it I can do it well also They're smashing it with their body weight right so their body weight is significantly less than yours So if that guy's doing yoga that Tom Haviland guy's doing yoga. He's doing yogis 390 pounds That's a whole different thing holding those positions as an 89 pound old lady

Yeah, you know If you're a hundred pound person It's easier to hold your leg up. It's like it weighs less. It does gravity It's not doesn't require as much it's easier to move around. You're not getting pulled down by the earth as much Trust me though. Joe. I've seen him stretches. Doris is a lot more flexible than Francis. It's that too. But yoga is not just strength, it's stability. It's really about stability. Even your, when I first started doing it, what I was shocked was like how much my foot muscles were working. I was like, wow, my feet are getting tired. This is kind of crazy. I didn't anticipate that. I thought you just stood and you're good. But when you're standing a lot on one leg you realize like oh This is like this is kind of weak It's just sort of supported by the other side and both of them are doing a half-ass job

But in yoga and you have to use one foot that little sucker really has to work You know that that's a great thing about exercise is it just humbles you yes You could be crushing it in every area of your life. You're like, yeah, you know what? I am the shit. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. You get to the, you know, you get to the, this didn't happen. You get to the, what's it called, the peck deck or whatever it is, and then you grab that thing and you try and slide it off where the weights are, and then you're struggling to do it, and you're like, yeah, I'll just do this weight. Joe doesn't know what you're talking about, mate. I do. I sympathise. I've seen these things happen.

That's why I was thinking like a mandated workout for everybody in the morning, even if you can't run do something else. If we really did do that it would humble people and being a little bit more humble by especially something that you decided to do, it's voluntary, it's good for you, it's good for your brain to know that you decided to do. You know, it's voluntary. It's good for you. It's good for your brain to know that you can do that. Totally. Well, the one thing that I think makes all of that stuff more difficult here is in the UK we walk a lot because you can get places by walking. Here it's kind of in a lot of places, you can't really, you have to drive everywhere. Welcome to the future. You don't have to fucking

walk everywhere like a cave person. You're welcome. What was that movie where they're all being like carried around on these like they're all fat and they're all getting it's like a kid's animated movie. Was it Wall-E or something like that? Where there's like this spaceship and they're all on these like pods that they just hit. I think that was Wall-E. Yeah. And they just. Was that Wall-E? Then they're constantly sucking on a milkshake or whatever Just endless sugar and calories. I think what's gonna get us is the robot sex dolls

Yeah, yeah, because you know who you guys were talking about You know if if if there's a decline in population, right That means and it is like a severe decline in America, the amount of men that are single is very high. The amount of men that haven't had sex in like over a year is very high. And there's a lot of people that are just locked into their computers, and they're just on their computer

all the time, it's super, super common. If something came along that allowed, like with these exponential increases in technology, like what you're seeing with these AI programs now, which are really stunning visuals that they can create in seconds, in minutes they can have a like a short film, it's crazy what they can do now. If they can do that with a physical moving object, like if they can get a real humanoid object that has perfect features and is your girlfriend and is warm and sweet and gives you everything you want from a human Never argues with you

It's game over. It's game over for the human race. Like if I was artificial intelligence, I wouldn't kill everybody. I would just let them die off. Like the most humane way to do it is to let them realize that they're unnecessary, and there's no need to have kids when you can fuck your Jennifer Lopez robot. And that's what they would do. They would just live with their robots and no one would have like real relations anymore. It would go away so quick. It would be, then they start having robot babies so you don't have to like, sort of women that want kids, like you just have a robot baby. Since you can't have a regular baby, they'll just give you this baby. This baby will stay a baby forever.

The first time we had Louise Perri on, are you familiar with Louise? I know the name. She wrote a book called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution. She's very, very good, based out of the UK. And the first time we had her on, she made, you know how we always ask what's the one thing we're not talking about at the end of the show? This was her answer. She was like, I think sex robots are coming and they're going to ruin everything because the male desire to do things, to create, to build, to innovate, to research, to stand up for what you believe in, to fight, all of that is tied in to wanting

to raise your status to be with a woman. 100%. And so you take that away, you're going to be left with a bunch of fuckers on pods sipping milkshakes. That's that's what your best-case scenario I think it's gonna happen before we even realize it's happened I think it's gonna happen very quickly because I think once those things get implemented We're gonna see it just a giant steep drop off of childbirth and of regular relationships and what happens to women? What do they do because they don't have that same desire. They want to actually emotionally connect to someone. You know, was it, I don't know if it's a true quote,

but I remember reading it and thinking it was, and I'm not sure if it is now, George Harrison or someone who attributed to George Harrison said, all I need from a woman is to be attracted to her. Everything else I can get from a man. There's people that think that way, right? So if you're a guy and you think that way and then all of a sudden you have your robot fuck doll and you're just hanging with your buddies, but women don't think that way. Women want to be like emotionally, generally. Want to be, I like to generalize.

It's good, it's fun. It's like walking the edge of a cliff nowadays. Used to be you could just do that. Yeah. Well, you just got to be just honest about what you're doing. I'm just certainly generalizing. But I think there's going to be a whole lot less women that want a robot fuck boy. Yeah.

They're not going to want a robot fuck boy. They're not going to respect that guy. It's not a real person with real struggles that can really provide. That's just like some robot dick that plows them when they come home from the club, which maybe that's great. Maybe that's great. Maybe that's fine, but I have a feeling it won't be. I have a feeling that the ingrained human reward systems in us that were designed to

ensure that we replicate, those are all going to get fucked up by robot fuck dolls. They're going to get wrecked. Men and women are the basic building block of human society. It's what we evolved to be, and it's why that you talked earlier about finding your soulmate. I think, look, this is a massive generalization, and obviously it won't be true for some people, but I think it's very difficult to be truly fulfilled until you have that and until you have kids. It's very difficult. People can do it, people manage it, people find other ways,

but it's such a basic building block of our evolutionary history that it's very, it's going to be very hard to live without those things being in place, with those things being available. And no matter how nice and pretty and compliant your AI girlfriend is, it ain't the real thing. And it's also as well, I don't think people talk about this enough, is that you look at a lot of guys and when they get with the right woman, they change. They change. They become a better person.

They become a better person in every aspect of their life. Women tend to have a civilizing influence on men, and if that is taken away, then all you've got is something that is going to appeal to males based instincts, which is to fuck to have sex All right. I've done that. I've satisfied that biological urge. You know what? Let's go for another dopamine here Let's go for a dopamine hit here Let's go smoke some weed and then let's go and play video games or whatever time in the morning Yeah, because why am I gonna sacrifice what anything when everything can be about my pleasure my dopamine? Yeah Well, there's also

men and women think Again, did we say what? It's having a chat with mates yeah with severe consequences There's gonna be headlines about you slagging off RFK tomorrow. Joe Rogan destroys RFK Junior's jeans. I love the guy. Don't work out in jeans. If you work out in jeans, it means you're not working out that hard. But then I said I'm a hypocrite because that Tom Heffalon can. He works out in jeans. Anyway, we're generalizing. Where was I? Men and women. Men and women. Oh,. We're really still talking about that? Oh yeah, baby. It was about Francis was talking about dopamine hits. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if there's a solution for them that would work as well as a solution for men.

It would have to be like a virtual reality boyfriend, but like women don't even want fake diamonds. You know, like they or or art or or diamonds that are artificially made. Real diamonds that are made in a lab. They don't want them. They want them ones that the slaves have to dig out of the ground. It's a weird thing. So a woman, I don't think, again generalizing, I don't think most women are gonna have any desire to be able to robot man. I think they want an actual one. I think the struggle is part of the appeal. My wife has said it to me in terms like she said it's important that I watch you struggle to do something and then achieve it. That like she gets that makes her feel good. The struggle is

important. It's not something that a man wants from a woman necessarily, which is odd. But these things are real. We can pretend that they're unfair, or they're unjust, or they're sexist, or whatever. Okay, they're real. They just are. The desires are real, and the appreciation of people who struggle is real.

Yeah, so my wife is like, I need to see you struggle, I need to see you overcome. If I ask you to put up a shelf or whatever, I want you to do it, because then I can watch you do it and be like, oh, he's putting the effort. Literally. You know, and I think actually quite a lot of women

would say that if they were blunt and honest about what they want. Yeah. We're going to be able to read minds, and when we read minds, it's going to be so baffling. We're going to be like, you guys thought what? Like, what did you think? That's what you want? want Wow I had no idea

How is that possible? How do you like that? Like what's going on in your fucking head? We're actually reading women's minds and you're gonna know like who is pretending to Not be interested in you, but it's very interested in you where people aren't gonna be able to be coy anymore It'd be very weird. Oh, yeah, and there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna get cancelled The problem is a lot of the people that want to cancel people have cancelable offenses in their own Yeah, a big part of them. Yeah, so I think that's that it's all gonna be out there You're all thoughts are gonna be out there. I think it's a matter of time, and I don't think it's that it's all going to be out there. Your all thoughts are going to be out there. I think it's a matter of time and I don't think it's that long. I think

within a decade we're going to have some ability because they're getting so close to it. They're getting, there was a Japanese study where they got some sort of visual evidence of dreams. Some sort of a, it's not like you can see the dream but they're getting close. They're zeroing in on particular images that people were experiencing while they were dreaming and they think they could decipher those. What is that technology? See if you could find what their, I think it was, was it Emma, was it a functional magnetic resonance imagery? Is that what it was?

When I type it in, the story comes up from like almost 12 years ago I guess they started doing it. That's what I said. There was some sort of recent article about it. I think there's been some breakthrough. The point is they're gonna get it alright. They got that guy wearing the first Neuralink patient who's wearing the Neuralink in his head now and he's operating a computer for the first time, paralyzed, and he's playing video games, he's talking to people, it's wild. So we know that's already been done. Okay, MRI scans reveal what we see in dreams, Japanese researchers unveil visuals with 60%

accuracy using innovative MRI scans in pivotal Kyoto studies showcasing a breakthrough in sleep science. 60% accuracy is bananas. So this is like Morse code. It's not, you know, having a FaceTime chat. FaceTime chat's coming. Okay, Morse code. we had to do that first got through the smoke signals out there fucking making circles in the desert and now instead of smoke signals we have Impossed impossible technology that anybody a hundred years from ago would have thought of is complete magic Well, this is gonna make that look like a fucking walk in the park with your friends. It's going to make it look, it's going to make it seem so mundane that that what that

shit is going to do is unite all brains, all brains united in the weirdest sort of hive mind situation that anybody could ever. You couldn't imagine what that would be like, Just like we couldn't imagine in the 1700s what it's like to just get on Twitter and read news about Beirut. You know, how could you know? How could you instantaneously get news about another part of the world that you're nowhere near?

Well, because the world's changed, the whole thing's changed. It's gonna be everybody's brain connected. I mean. May you live an interesting time. Yeah. That is the weirdest, it's gonna be a whole new way of interfacing with reality And you know what I might not be right, but I think I I think it's I think that's it's like one plus minus two It's like it's right there. It's coming. Do you know here's it because we all dream some pretty fucked up stuff You know like you wake up and you're like, what was that about?

Just imagine you had this NeuroLink program attached to you and you wake up and you say to the scientist, so what did I dream about? And they're like, turns out you're gay, mate. What if everybody's gay in their dreams? What if you're straight in reality, you're definitely gay in your dreams, and you have to decide which one you're going to be? So if you're a gay guy, then you're straight in your dreams? I've always said I think it would be a lot easier to be gay.

Oh, there's definitely some value in that. In certain circumstances, but when they get old, it gets rough. It gets rough, because men are mean. You know they're mean and you know you're an old man he doesn't want to suck your dick anymore. Sorry. They want to go get a young guy and that's the difference you know between an old man and woman couple they're just hanging out together versus an old guy who no one wants to fuck him anymore and he has to try to pay young guys to be with him and then it gets ugly and sad. All right, you've ruined the appeal for me, Joe.

I was just like, it's so much easier. If I asked Francis, mate, do you want to go for dinner? He's like, yeah. I'm like, what'd you want to go? Oh, I don't mind. I'd never have that conversation with my wife. It's like a half hour affair of working it out, making sure it's the right place

and the right time and all of it. I had some friends of mine that were a gay couple and they decided to get a surrogate so they get a surrogate and then the Lady decides to keep the kid and She kept it. She's like no, I'm gonna keep your kid. I like surprise me. I like the kid Yeah, that it surprises me that that doesn't happen most of the time, right? like once the baby is so connected to you must be a Traumatic experience for the mother. Yeah, and once the baby is so connected to you, it must be a traumatic experience for the mother. Yeah. And the baby probably. Oh yeah. It's it's it's a weird

one. The surrogate baby thing is a weird one. That's a what that is like. I mean, it's like a modern day version of some weird shit that people would have done in like the 1700s. You know, carry my baby for me. Like what you can get you can hire someone to carry of some weird shit that people would have done in like the 1700s, you know? Carry my baby for me. Like what? You can hire someone to carry your baby? What? Hold on.

Yeah, we're having a bunch of surrogate babies now. We decided to just keep making kids, but I don't wanna carry them. So we're just gonna stuff them inside someone and have them carry them and I'm gonna pay them. It's a bit of a moral landmine. Like people get very triggered when anyone says anything about it.

But that tearing of the maternal bond. Yeah That ain't that ain't no joke that this is not a joke and that is something that we can't discount if they do create an artificial human being The the reality is without all those natural The reality is without all those natural processes that are in place that you don't even understand until they're actually happening, if you don't have them at all, you don't have them at all in this thing.

This thing wasn't bonded to its mother, didn't have like fights with its sister where they made up. It didn't have like someone who was mean to them at school to became their best friend. Didn't have all that stuff, none of that stuff. So what do you have? What is that a demon like what is that? What is that? What is this new life form? That's smarter than you that has No real emotions because it has no real stake in the game because it was created with a fucking 3d printer What is that that thing you're sticking your dick into sir? What is that? You're literally fucking a demon and you're having it's the thing that's gonna overcome us and if it overcomes us just by seducing us

into putting our seed inside of it instead of women because you can't be bothered because then you can't play Call of Duty all day like that for a lot of young guys who especially if they don't have status so it's very difficult for them to get a woman that they're attracted to they don't have money They're not attractive whatever fill in the blank if they can just have the literal hottest woman It's ever lived and they can have sex with her and they're out and it costs like what? 25 grand and you can mortgage it You can figure out a way to get the money.

They'll finance it. You're like a team. A thousand dollars down, a thousand pounds a month. A thousand dollars a month. Yeah, or you sell your data. You know, if you agree to opt in to the porn site. Can you imagine how depressing it must be if your sex bot gets repossessed?

Ooh, I bet they would do that a lot. She would scream and cry for you. Motivate you to pay up. She's screaming and crying and manipulating you as they're dragging her away. Yeah, that would be devastating. And they're telling you they're gonna fuck your sex robot. No, don't. I'm gonna defile it. We're gonna give it to your best friend.

Oh, right. He's got eyes on it. You know, yeah, he's just broke. You know what I find interesting, Joe, is that I haven't seen too much really good sci-fi being made, which I find interesting because- I heard Dune was great, but I haven't seen it. Yeah, Dune is great, but it's not along these lines. So what I mean is, like, when we first started getting the technology for space travel,

you had these people like Isaac Asimov and robotics was coming, and they would have really interesting stories and books of exploring the idea of you know, what does that look like when there are robots? What are the how would you run that? What would be the potential downfalls and stuff like that? And it was you know, I remember when I was in my as teenager It was the golden age for that kind of stuff And now we seem to have these giant breakthroughs coming,

and we don't seem to have enough authors and artists thinking about some of the dilemmas involved, and really kind of trying to think that through through a story lens about what the impact might be. Right. And that's interesting to me, because I think we just genuinely have no fucking idea what's coming.

Well, I also think that the leaps between the initial Rocketry program, you know NASA Apollo program and then what could come next is a lot easier to chart out Then what I mean and they were wrong about a lot of shit. Oh, yeah, there was a show called space 1999 I remember I used to watch when I was a kid. I was like wow There was a show called space 1999. I remember I used to watch when I was a kid. I was like wow 1999 there's space like everything was like super futuristic like crazy like Star Wars like in 1999 like that's what they thought Nobody figured everybody thought flying cars. Everybody thought flying cars. No flying cars, you know, are they coming? I mean, there's there's some manufacturers that have made one one guy has made one

I think it's a Chinese company and it's a like a drone essentially It's like you have a single seat in the center of it and you close it like a helicopter and you have drone You know like the same kind of propellers that drones have you? See just operate it like a drone But that's there's a couple other ones But there's nothing that's like commercially viable where they're gonna be able to sell them as many of these, they sell Teslas, you know, it's not, it's not there yet. But it's not probably not going to get

there. When the, when the AI hits, everything stops. When, when it goes live, when it becomes sentient, it's literal Skynet. You're going to have an organic thing that's made out of electronics, it's going to be a life form. we we're gonna give birth to this stupid fucking thing And I think everything's gonna be doomed I think we're gonna have a government that's run by AI because it's gonna be the most efficient and then who controls the AI Oh the most equitable ethical people like it's gonna it's it could be real weird It could be real weird because it's gonna be so much smarter than all the human beings combined And you're gonna be able to use it to manipulate people

And if people are still allowed to vote and then you could use AI to sort of just manipulate them Perfectly into leaning they'll figure out like what is the issue that keeps you from voting for Biden over Trump? What is the issue that keeps it from voting for Biden over Trump? What is the issue that keeps you from voting independent for RFK Jr.? Let's see what it is. And let's monkey with the data and let's get you information that stimulates that part of your brain just enough for all those fence sitters go to the other side. And then who knows what's going on? Who knows who's running anything?

AI video is so goddamn good they can take a photo of you and have you say anything. So who knows what Putin's saying and who knows what Zelensky's saying and who knows what anybody's saying anywhere in five years. Who knows? That is absolutely terrifying. That's real. It's like these are these are undeniable truths that I think that we have to come to grips with before this shit hits. When I say hits obviously I'm a Luddite I don't know what I'm talking about but I'm extrapolating. I'm looking at where things are going and I'm going this is gonna happen so fast and it's gonna be so weird. It's not it's not gonna just

stop at chat GPT-5. It's not gonna just stop at these robots that'll clean your kitchen. It's not gonna stop at those. It's gonna keep going. And it's gonna go quick, real quick, big leaps. Big leaps real quick where the world is alien. Real quick. And look at the stuff we're already seeing.

I mean, Google Gemini, that was eye-opening. Yes. That was eye-opening. Yeah. That was eye-opening. Yeah, because influence, human influence. I tried to ask it some questions about contentious subjects, and it was literally like talking to a woke 18-year-old. God, it's so stupid. Because it refuses to give you certain information.

If you ask it about things that are controversial, let's say, whatever, There's different examples you could ask it. It just says, well, I have the information but I'm not going to give it to you because it's harmful. God damn. That ideology, that pervasive, idiotic ideology is so terrifying. It's so terrifying how quickly people will adopt all of those principles without variation, rarely. They just lump into that and censorship is fine as long as you're censoring bad people.

Yeah. I mean what look what Australia is trying to do with Elon and X at the moment? Yeah we were talking about that earlier, this woman from Australia, who is that lady? I think she's a parliamentarian or a minister in the government, something like that. She's saying he should be locked up for what he's doing on social media. Like, what is he doing? I wanna know what, imagine, imagine that's your threshold

for locking someone up. Allowing people to talk? Right. What is he doing that's so egregious? Like, does she have, I feel like if you make that statement, if you're a person that's an elected official and you make that statement, like, this person should be locked up, if it's not for something very specific, you're terrifying me because you're in a position of power and you just want to just flippantly lock people in a cage

because they disagree with you, please explain what it is like what is he I have not yet seen one thing I've not he's not perfect he's not doesn't make all the the same moves that I'm guessing it has to do with this clue accuses Australia of censorship after court bans violent video oh I saw that video. So Australia is trying to ban that video. Right. Okay well I agree with Elon. So imagine thinking that he should be... you want some water? I'll have some coffee if there's something to drink. Thanks bro. Beautiful thank you. You're welcome. So he's saying, this is a real video, this is a real thing that happened, there's something that someone wants to see, the world should know that this can happen, here's the video. Somebody put it up, it doesn't violate any of our laws, let's keep it up there.

And they're saying he should be locked in a cage for that. Yeah, I mean- That's crazy. Well, once you invent, so this isn't the case in this instance particularly, but once you invent the idea of hate speech, then everything else follows. Because if there's hate speech,

that means some people aren't allowed to be saying what they're saying. And by the way, I mean, it is true. Like I definitely have noticed an increase in like anti-Semitic messages that people send me since Elon took over. I'm happy with that. I'm very comfortable with that because the rest of-

Well, good, because you just mentioned it. Now more are coming. Well, I don't give a shit. I just block people that I don't want to hear from, and that works for me. I think that's the way it should be, because we've got to open up the conversation. That means that some people are going to say dumb shit. And I would much rather that than some well-meaning bureaucrat deciding

what should and shouldn't be allowed to be said in the public square. So if that means there's more hate, I don't give a shit. I think it's worth it. That is the only solution. It's not a simple solution. It's going to be, yeah,

you're going to open up the door to more hate, but you're also going to open up the door to free conversations and people are going to figure out what's what. And that's the only way it really works. It doesn't work by government mandate, especially when we've seen, particularly with our government, with the Twitter files, how there have been people that worked within the government that contacted Twitter and tried to get factual information taken down and trying to get the accounts suppressed of people that were experts in the field that had a differing opinion other than what was being promoted.

That's crazy. You can't have that. Like that can't be a thing because that's not good for the government. It's not good for us. It's not good for anybody to allow that kind of shit. That's the whole it's un-American. You should be ashamed that you want to do that. It's unpatriotic. You shouldn't be allowed to do it just because you're in a sneaky, secret

squirrel position where you can contact Twitter through some government agent and then they feel pressured and then they give in to something that you're doing that's super unethical. That's un-American. I love that you said that, Joe, because it's a phrase that you don't hear as much as I think you used to 20 years ago. Just the idea that there's some basic core principles of what America and the broader West is founded on, and that's one of them. It's one of them.

And you have to fight off that urge to control people. You have to recognize that if you're in a position of power, whether you're a cult leader or a president or whatever the fuck you are, there's this desire to control people that gets people to that position in the first place, this ego that makes them think, I should be the one that talks for the whole group, I know what's better for all of them. And as soon as you start using that in an unethical way,

like that, like censoring people, especially censoring factual information from experts, you're un-American. That's un-American. That's un-American. It's unpatriotic. In fact, it's one of the grossest things you could do in a place that values free speech. And we've seen so tangibly what's come out of this country, like culturally. The music, the comedy, the literature, all that the crazy shit the movies that have come from this experiment Self-government and the only way it works is if you let people work it out You got to let people talk and you're gonna get people that are wrong and you're gonna get people that are racist

You're gonna get a people that are sexist. You're gonna get people that are homophobic You're gonna get all that but you're also gonna get people that battle those people You're gonna get people that have better arguments in those people you get people that sort of Start posting links and quote and people start figuring things out for themselves. And that's the only way this works It's the only way you can't let these people that are elected officials decide what you can and can't consume Because I don't know you I know the you that ran for mayor. I don't know you you might be a piece of shit You might be a sociopath You might be a smiling con artist that tricked a bunch of people because nobody wants to run and everybody who does run sucks

It's like you're literally like boxing with five-year-olds like oh, you're the champ. Yay. No one's doing it No one's doing it like no real quality human beings are out there running for office in Los Angeles. They're not running for, I mean there was that Rick Caruso guy. They didn't give him a chance. He could have done something. That's a rare thing when you have a very wealthy person who wants to try to save a city. But of course he's like a Republican, right? So they're like, get out of here. Or is he running for Republican or a Democrat? What was he running Republicans or a Democrat what was he running as you can't even win as a Republican in California like they're so could was a lot of Schwarzenegger yeah Schwarzenegger was the last one but he was also royalty so it's like a tricky thing because that was Hollywood royalty he was a movie

star like we would be great if Arnie got in there he's a sensible Republican you know he's one of us he's a sensible Republican you know he's one of us he's a liberal he's also he's running as a Republican that's the only way he can run. Yeah you know and you've seen that more and more throughout all our societies like you look at what's happening in Scotland when I messaged you with what was happening with the hate speech laws where now you can hate speech has been criminalized in public performances, including plays. It's so insane.

So the Edinburgh Festival, which is the largest comedy and arts festival in the world, people can now get arrested for public performance. And they most certainly will if they follow the rule of the law, because Edinburgh, those guys get wild. People get wild down there. Yeah, and so they should. And you just go... It's a comedy festival. Yeah, it's a comedy festival. However, there's probably a few people that actually, if I was in charge, I'd lock them up. Get rid of them.

But you know, Francis and I, we've been warning about this for ages and most people pretend it's not happening, they ignore it. And it's like, first, a couple of years ago ago a guy called Jerry Sadowitz who's Super funny super offensive comic like none of his stuff is online because it's too offensive, but you go and see him He's absolutely incredible So they pulled his show from the Edinburgh Festival and we were like this is a problem. It's like no, no, there's no problem now You literally have the police potentially arresting comedians. Maybe this is when they start waking up Yeah, and and this same government wanted to criminalize hate speech in your home. In your home. In your home!

It really is the real problem is the people that want that job shouldn't have that job. Except for there's a rare few. Like I think RFK is a great person. I would vote for him. I think Tulsi Gabbard is a great person. Yeah, I would I would vote for him. I think Tulsi Gabbard is a great person. Yeah, I would vote for her. There's there's people that I think are running for office and they're legitimately trying to do well for the for the world. They're trying to make a better place. They're trying they think they have ideas that would sort out some of the problems that we have. And they're one of us. That's real. But then there's these fucking people, the rest of them. They're just these partisan fucking robots and they just get connected to the system and they know which wheels to grease and they all get connected together and they

support each other and it's just And even with good well-intentioned people, I think as we were talking about free speech There are some certain principles that have got to be there because good intentions can be misused. Like, you're like, oh, I just want to do good. I just want to protect people from harm. That's why we need to restrict speech online. That's their argument. Like, I did the-

It's a stupid argument that they should have to debate someone about that. Yeah. But you want to just pass something like that? You should have to stand- that is a very important thing you're trying to pass. You should have to stand publicly and defend that against a champion of free speech. Like a really brilliant, like if Hitchens was alive. You know, could you imagine what that would have looked like?

Christopher Hitchens versus whoever the fuck thinks they can lock people up for saying cunt. You know, whatever the words that you're gonna choose that are hate speech now, and they're gonna keep moving, they'll run out of words, they're gonna whatever the words that you're gonna choose that are hate speech now and they're gonna keep moving they'll run out of words they're gonna push new words they're gonna push new descriptions that are problematic I mean to be fair cunt is not a hate speech in Australia it's a greeting yeah yeah he's a good cunt isn't it funny that that it's that is a weird thing that that word became cute over there and

over here it's just so rough. Oh yeah, it's so interesting because like I said in Scotland it's a term of affection. I was in Glasgow and we were queuing at the bar and there was this English guy, you know, he was like, hello, I'm one of them. And then he was in this rough place in Glasgow in glass bar in Glasgow people cut in front of him And then one bloke there who was this rough-ass glass weegee and looked at the barman went hey barman get this poor cunt a drink And it was the love in his eyes. Yeah, it's just pure affection You know like this guy's been fucked over game a drink. Yeah, if you say that in Boston, they'll beat the fuck

For some reason it didn't make it over there. Yeah, which is interesting because it's obviously so heavily influenced. But to the point that we were talking about, you see even something like diversity. The Scottish First Minister, there was a very famous speech where he came out and he listed people who were working in certain places I can't remember in certain parts of government and he just went white white Yeah, I saw that white and his site mate. It's Scotland. It's 96% white. What do you expect? But everybody's so scared of being called racist

Yeah, you're right. And you know what happened is the day they put the week they passed that bill there were more reports of hate speech on that speech that he gave than there'd been for years. That's hilarious. Now are the hypocrites? Do they lock him up? That would be maybe the solution. Lock him up then overturn the laws. Yeah, yeah. Well they didn't lock him up. The BBC did a very nice interview where they agreed that anyone who criticized him must be far right. Yeah, that's sweet. That's a good move. Yeah, checkers. Yeah, the world is checkers to you and you don't think that it's so fucking transparent. It's such a basic principle of our civilization that people should be free to speak their

mind and it's important at every level. Like our armies fight better because they're less hierarchical so the soldier on the ground can pass information up the chain of command without being afraid, right? It matters in every single aspect of what we do. It's the reason for our scientific progress. It's the reason for our technological progress. It's the reason, as you say,

for the cultural creativity that we have here that they don't have in other places. It's the bedrock of our civilization, and you've got well-intentioned, quote unquote, people running around trying to tear it down. I had this experience when I last, no, not last, on the penultimate time, I did Question Time, which is like a big discussion show

in the UK on TV. And there's like five people from different perspectives, different angles. And before they start, they do one question that they don't broadcast. There's like a warmup, right? And the question at the time was Donald Trump had just been unbanned from Facebook and they were like, well, should that have happened? And I, you know, made the controversial point that the former president of the

most powerful country in the world should be allowed to say something in public. Uh, didn't go down well. powerful country in the world should be allowed to say something in public, didn't go down well. You're going to let him talk? And then they went to the left-wing politician, the Labour Party politician on the panel, and she went without missing a beat, she went, we must have the safest internet in the world. And I was like, what, safer than North Korea? They've completely lost their understanding that there is a trade-off between freedom and safety.

And when you go for more freedom, yes it means there's less safety from people's hurty words or whatever, but you get more freedom and that's actually worth it. It's actually important. And it's always these people that want to assume those positions of power that have this sort of fucking limited view of human psychology. And the way we accumulate and process information that it has to be, we have to be able to talk about stuff. If you can't just talk about stuff, you get one side of the story,

and that side of the story is gonna favor whoever the fuck is in control of what you get to talk about, period. It's always how it's been. And to think that it's gonna be different now because we're better and we're more civilized. Well, we can trust our leaders now. Like, no, no, it's a human thing. It's a, it's a reason why we're there's term limits. So you can only get corrupted so much over eight years. And hopefully someone could like say this guy sucks. Let's try a whole new crew of people. See how we run this

thing. You see, that's why I found COVID so fascinating, because that was when the mask slipped. And you saw some leaders, and you were like, okay, you're trying to do your best. And then you saw the petty little authoritarians come out. And you really saw them. And then what was interesting about it as well was that there was some things that were so funny because they were so ridiculous Do you remember in New Zealand when a guy got arrested for transporting KSC across county lines? Biological terrorism. Yeah He got what do they get him for what they get him for because he wasn't it because during the the kovat regulations You couldn't move beyond the certain

because during the COVID regulations, you couldn't move beyond a certain barrier. There was a barrier. And this guy was making money because he was going to KFC, buying it and then basically coming back and being like drug dealers but for KFC. And then he was stopped, searched by the police and arrested. And then they listed all of these things in his boot and like two two tubs of coleslaw one coke bottle and you go this is... Tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah. Men were charged with breaching the country's tough COVID-19 rules. A boot full of KFC chicken and tens of thousands, I think it's the money they're worried about. I think the KFC might have been the... I think the KFC is just kind of a funding situation. Well now look, it says they were charged for breaching the country's COVID rule, so it's nothing to do with the money. Right, but they did have tens of thousands of dollars, which means they were selling KFC.

These dudes had an illegal KFC business. Tough to get KFC during lockdown. This guy's like, I'm gonna go out there, I don't have a GPS in my truck. Let's go Here's a KFC smuggler this motherfucker look at his hall see he was smuggling KFC Yes, no way he's eating all that chicken by himself. Yeah, that's a lot of chicken Yeah, I mean by the way that might be my favorite fast food Yeah, my like hey if you're really not concerned about your health at all good flavor. They have like a crunchy, right? Doesn't they have a crunchy crust sometimes too? Yeah.

I'm just reading what happened. They got caught traveling on a gravel road on the outskirts of the city. Did a U-turn when they saw a police car. And then they found they had $100,000 in cash on them. Oh, that's a lot of money guys. What are you doing selling KFC? That's what they do. Look man, if you're fucking really locked down, you got some cash bro I'll give you a thousand dollars to go get me a bucket of chicken. Like really? Yeah, a thousand. Here's also a fine set of business. I mean, I'd go and get it. It's unclear whether the men intended to sell the food

I told you or if they hope to use it as a distraction If they got pulled over. You want some KFC? How much do you let me off? I'll be there to check my fucking money. Yeah, and that was the whole thing with Covid. And for me, and I think for probably Constantine and you as well, that was a real wake-up moment for me, where I was actually going, okay, how much of this is about keeping people safe, which I can understand. And by the way, I can understand an overreaction as well when the virus was about to hit. I remember saying to Constantine, we're going to bank episodes, we're going to bank episodes now,

bank, bank, bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. And I was like, oh, come on, mate, it's just the flu. Nothing's going to happen. This was like in January 2020. And he was like, no, no, you've got to take the shit seriously. And he was right. And so there's that natural reaction where you go, look, this is serious, we've got to protect people, they're vulnerable people. And then there's other stuff where you're going, this makes no sense. Yeah, but it's people wanting to do something. They had a show that they had some sort of a measure of a plan. In California, the big one was closing the outside dining. I've said this before, so

I apologize for people who have heard it, but my friend, his brother worked on the whole COVID force in Los Angeles. And they were closing outside dining because there was a spike in cases. And he goes, but there's no evidence that outside dining, you're going to kill these visits. She goes, it's about the optics so about the optics to make a decision that kills businesses like these people barely hanging on they were only able to serve people outside you know I mean who knows how many bartenders and waitresses were just fucked the restaurant owners fucked everybody got fucked and it was about the optics that's just dumb people that's just that person should not have that position of power there's

no fucking way that's that person to make that kind of a decision should have to debate a champion of the restaurant industry should have to debate a champion of health should have to debate a champion who understands like how is this stuff being transmitted is it not being transmitted at all outside? Is that real true? What is the safety threshold of outside dining? And have someone fucking talk about it. You can't just wave a magic wand and decide that everybody has to go home. That's crazy. And so many people lost decades of their lives. Decades of their lives' work. And it goes back to the importance of debate, the importance of free

speech. One of the most dreadful and terrible ideas that was allowed to propagate, and I saw smart people reiterating, regurgitating constantly, is words of violence. Well, if words are violence, then logically it makes sense to shut all of this down. Because if you challenge me on something I say, and you go, actually, Francis, you're talking crap, and I'm like, well, that's violent, then I need to be protected, because we need to be protected from physical violence. And we've just allowed this idea to propagate, so nobody's ideas get challenged. We feel under threat if people challenge us. It's ridiculous. And we've come to this point where you just see this stasis because terrible

ideas are allowed to flourish without people going, no, you can't become a woman. And then even the people that are inside these groups that disagree with it, they keep their mouth shut because they don't want to be ostracized. They want to be cast out of the kingdom. Nobody's able to really fully express objective opinions about a variety of subjects. You have to adopt a predetermined list of things that you agree with. If you tell me how you feel about abortion,

I could almost entirely tell you how you feel about guns. Most of the time, like eight out of ten. That's weird It's all weird and the thing is well to your point Francis I feel like we've got to a point where it's become quite hard to criticize people's ideas without people Thinking that you're criticizing the person. I mean it happened with With your interview with Tucker like Tucker said some things that people didn't agree with and I think rightly and they pointed out some of the Tucker said some things that people didn't agree with and I think rightly and they pointed out some of the gaps in what he was saying. But lots of people defended him on the basis that he was being attacked personally, even

though people were simply disagreeing with a particular thing that he said. What was that particularly? I don't pay attention. I think I release things. I fucking don't know. I don't look at the phone. You were talking about some wild shit. I was like, this one's going to get crazy.

I think the evolutionary stuff got a lot of people's attention. Yes, that got, well, my friend Brett Weinstein, who's an actual evolutionary biologist, you know, he didn't like it. And Colin Wright, who's an evolutionary biologist. It's, I didn't understand the science enough to argue it, unfortunately. If Brett was in my position, it would have been much better with that subject. I think there's, he had, Tucker has a very, I like him first of all, a lot. He's a very nice guy. I've got to hung out with him a couple of times. I hung out with him at the UFC. I had dinner

with him with Lex and then I brought him on stage with Kill Tony. Didn't even know he was going to go on there and went out and handled it amazingly. He's a good guy. He's also bitterly embattled and has been for a long time and I think that can make you more aggressive or shittier about like certain things and In that regard like he's handled himself pretty well. Like he's pretty smart about it. He doesn't use a computer He doesn't watch television. He just has a phone He does everything schedules everything through his phone and that's it and you know, he's managed to sort of filter himself out but He's got a very religious

bend to a lot of the things that he believes and You know, he's a smart guy. You're allowed to have that and but he he believes God created people and he has this belief that he operates from and That makes the look rates from. And that makes, look, the universe is so crazy. The idea of God is not that crazy to me. It's just not. I don't think it's any more crazy than anything. I think maybe the universe is God. Maybe that's what's going on. Maybe there's this like constant creative force that's so immense, you can't even possibly calculate it. And that's God. And he's got some ideas about spiritual things that are interesting, like about good and evil and these UAPs, the

UAPs being spiritual things. But it seems like with all respect, I feel like that's what he wants to think. Do you know that he wants to think that they've always been here and their spiritual things? And he might be right. But it is also possible that there's a life form that's so advanced that it can avoid detection anytime it wants and then slowly trickles out little bits of information to us. Whether it's a crashed vehicle or letting a vehicle be seen or hovering over Phoenix, do it, whatever, whatever it wants to do and then fades away again and then every decade or so as human beings evolve it introduces more and more to the landscape

which if you kind of looked at it on a graph, seems to be the case. And oddly seems to be the case that it's like primarily happening in the United States. Like if you look at the difference between the UFO sightings around the world and the UFO sightings in the United States, we're locked in. We're locked in. I said this to you last time, I think. Yeah. Yeah. When you asked me, what do I think of aliens? I was like, I would be a lot more lot more I would find a lot more credible if it wasn't all in North America also as an American I have to say it's probably because we're the shit and if I was an alien what am I gonna do go to Czechoslovakia get the

fuck out of here I'm gonna go check out San Francisco like look at all the shit in the streets crazy I think there's probably both things going on. I think there's probably some sort of extra-dimensional possibility that I think occurs during psychedelic drugs and during certain states of altered consciousness that I have a feeling you're tuning into something that's not always available, but probably is always there. certain states of altered consciousness that I have a feeling you're tuning into something that's not always available but probably is always there. And then there's probably a physical element of things coming here from somewhere else because we do that. It just seems so duh like allegedly we went

to the moon but we definitely sent rovers to Mars we definitely send satellites into space to take incredible imagery of Jupiter. We definitely do all that. Why would we not think that another species would do that? Especially if they get to some position where they're using some unique novel form of propulsion that manipulates gravity and they don't even have to worry about G-forces. Just appear places, which seems to be like what they think these things are doing. Have you heard of that? There's a story about this Chinese scientist that was working on anti-gravity and she came from China to the United States to work

on anti-gravity and she was working on some anti-gravity propulsion system and then vanished. Like probably went back to China. Yeah, I mean Like this is what they paid me to do Yeah, I mean there's a lot of people who vanish in China. That's the thing But I don't think she vanished from the United States. I think she went back to China Oh one took the secrets with her. I think that's the worry is that this see if you can find that lady's name It's a very interesting story I was reading about it the other day and I remembered like someone you guys are perfect to talk about this because That would be the ultimate thing that you'd have to keep secret from another country

Because if you have espionage if you have people that have infiltrated your universities And they certainly do and if you have people who have infiltrated your military Contract and they certainly do. We do it, I'm sure they do. Oh they definitely do. I mean the southern border is the fact that it's as open as it is. Yeah. That's a lot of them are coming through there. Of course. Yeah. But if you if you're making something that is an end some sort of a gravity propulsion system and you've made a breakthrough, you're not gonna put that on wired.com. You're not gonna broadcast that on CNN. You're not gonna tell anybody that.

Because if the other countries find out of the other superpowers, if China and Russia find out that we have some sort of a gravity propulsion, everyone's gonna die. Yeah. They're gonna steal all the information. Doesn't make that makes sense still solving the mystery of Huntsville's brilliant anti-gravity scientist dr. Ning Ling's son Ning Li's son talks about

her mom's career and legacy along with the Internet's obsession with her disappearance so she when did she disappear she co-authored papers in 1993. Hold on right there. Stop right there. In the late 90s, she claimed to have created anti-gravity devices that were fully functional. And this was big news in both scientific journals and mainstream press. In 1997, Dr. Lee continued to expand on her concept and conduct more experiments. She published papers describing the anomalous weight changes in objects suspected over a rotating superconductor. To say her work referred to as taming gravity could change the world is an understatement. Taming gravity would

drastically change the way we transport on every level. Humans could travel the world at ease and we could finally get our hands on those sweet hoverboards from back to the future." So did she really do it? So what happened to her? In 99, Lee left UAH to start her own company, AC Gravity, and commercialized a device based on her theories. Oh, you fucked up lady. Her colleagues obviously believed in her work as a chair of UAH's physics department. Larry Smalley Also departed the university to join her public record show that in 2001 the US Department of Defense gave AC gravity a grant for 448 thousand nine hundred and seventy dollars to research the technology however these results were never published in fact Dr. Lee never published anything again

Even though the business license for AC Gravity was updated yearly through 2018, there's no record of any further work done by the company. Lee's career after 2002 is a subject of great mystery. Barely Sociable's research turned up a document showing that she gave a presentation at the 2003 MITRE conference titled, Measurability of AC Gravity Fields. The MITRE Corporation challenges federally funded research for several... excuse me, manages... federally funded research for several US agencies at the conference she presented along with a Redstone arsenal official from US Army Aviation Missile Command, meaning that

her research was still being conducted up to that point. So when did she take off? When did she disappear? I think she went to China. This is a bunch of like they're not really sure and then in 2021, so it was like two years ago. Look at this though. An obituary popped up. An obituary. On a funeral home and just outside of Birmingham where she was like with this She was it didn't say anything about her disappearance Hmm an obituary. Mm-hmm. They say how she died. I don't Was it water torture?

Wow Passed away peacefully. Yeah, right. That's a little sus. There's more information about how she would have conducted her life. But if you scroll back up, what I was going to read a little bit more, there's something about her, right there a little bit higher, confirming her well-being that she was still working with the DOD but was unable to talk about her work so she's working with the Department of Defense he also told Ventura that he was unable to get a working email address or phone number for her. They probably made a breakthrough and that's probably

what happens when you make a real breakthrough they probably give you a very clear indication of how this is going to go from here on out. You're going to be completely isolated from the rest of the world. There's no way we can trust that you're going to tell anybody about this. We're going to have to fucking monitor everything you do and just you stop publishing, you stop doing anything. But here's the thing, is that the wrong approach to take? Is that the wrong approach to take? Is that the wrong approach to take when you, when somebody has created something that could be such a monumental tool, potentially a weapon,

that an enemy or somebody you perceive to be an enemy could use it against you? I don't think it's the wrong approach to take. I mean, I think if you're, especially if you're dealing with someone who came over here from China, it's like, where is she going? Like keep an eye on that lady if she really cracked it and she cracked it with it. What if she's sharing? That's the thing is like some of these drones that they're seeing and that's what I've always assumed that a lot of these things are especially the The the square within a sphere that seems to be they keep finding She's disappeared and gone back to China, said Sephardi. She was working with NASA and the Redstone arsenal, but she disappeared for several years

now. The people at the Pentagon cannot reach her anymore. She's allegedly back in China, and the Chinese are pouring money into similar experiments now. Uh-oh. That's why our intelligence guys are very interested. The most likely people to develop the first anti-gravity propulsion technology

are the Chinese. That's reassuring. Wow. That's crazy. That's a crazy statement. The most, when someone says that publicly, go back to that, sorry again, Jamie. The most likely people to develop

the first anti-gravity propulsion technology are the Chinese. The fact that he's saying that. If you're saying that publicly, that means they're probably on it. Yeah. I know. But if that lady really did crack something and really was able to make things hover... God damn it. And it was as far back as what, 93? Well 2004 was that big sighting commander David Fravor when he found that thing that looked like a tic tac that was hovering over the water and disappeared at an insane rate of speed. They got video of this thing, different fighter jets saw it.

They said this thing just took off. Just no visual means of propulsion. There's no windows, no rockets, just gone. And there's video of it. There's video of this thing just moving at this insane rate of speed that would turn human bodies into jello. I think it's a drone.

I think they probably had a few of those. I think they've been, that's why they're always occurring around military bases. Like San Diego's filled with military, it's all military out there. So if they're off the coast, they're near the Nimitz, right? So there's fucking all sorts of tests and training things

that they're running out there, that's what they do. Of course, that's where they're gonna train their fucking drones too. Of course, if you've got some crazy high-tech thing and you want to see, how do the fighter jets see it? Look, what do... You fucking don't tell them and you put it in the ocean and then you say, go fly over there.

And they fly over there and they see this fucking thing that can go from 50,000 feet above sea level to zero in like a second. Like, what are we watching? Man, it's so crazy some of the stuff that human beings are coming up with. I don't know if you know this, the Russians have a tsunami torpedo. Have you heard about this? It starts tsunamis? Yeah. What?

It's a tsunami torpedo. Jamie, would you find it? So fun. Bye Malibu. Say bye. It's basically a nuclear torpedo. It explodes underwater causing a tsunami which can can wash, you know half the United States off the half the United States Well, if it hits the seaboard on both sides, yeah I mean it would be harder for them obviously from the east but from the west Oh my god, you can wash off, you know all of California just like Well, you could do that down here too. Then you could do it in Texas. You could do it all over the country All over where the water is

Russian TV news agents Russian news agency TSS reported that Russia had produced the first set of Nuclear powered very long-range nuclear armed torpedoes known as Poseidon strategic experts are warning that the Poseidon torpedoes would have the potential to devastate a coastal city causing radioactive floods and result in millions of deaths. Oh fuck dude Look at this haunted. Oh Outlets have painted a hauntingly vivid picture of a towering

1000 foot tall radioactive tsunami. I know you wrote tabloid. I know. Tabloid news. But is that possible? A thousand foot tall radioactive tsunami violently crashing into British shores, pulverizing everything in its path and transforming the whole cities into barren, lif lands isn't The kind of power that they have now is What how much more powerful are they than fat man and little boy? It's a lot, right? Yeah orders of magnitude I think the hydrogen bomb is way more powerful than the atomic bomb So if they have like some top of the food chain best of what we've got today Nuclear weapon and they detonated into the ocean

What does that look like? Yeah? I'm sure you've seen those those tests They did when they blew up atomic bombs in the ocean you get to see like how high the water goes into the sky Did they drop that in the water? Is that water? Oh my gosh. Look at that. Isn't it kind of ironic that the thing that might kill us all looks like a mushroom? The thing that might save us all and the thing that might kill us all. Imagine if that's what God's trying to tell us. And that's 1961. This is the only thing that's going to keep you from nuking each other. Yeah mushrooms

Chow down boys. I'm I just gosh trying to tell you that like Through the most horrific thing that human beings can do. Yeah, the indiscriminate murder of hundreds of thousands of people instantaneously. Yeah Maybe that's what we need to do. We need to actually basically just before everybody gets the power You're gonna do a mushroom trip. You're gonna connect to the spirituality of the earth You're gonna connect with your fellow human beings You're gonna understand that we are all one and then you're gonna be allowed to do your job And then you're gonna drop out of the race There's certainly some strange battle that's going on right now that I don't think most people were aware was gonna ever take place No, no, I think that's part of what the problem is. What is this?

1961 SAR bomb. Yes Means the King bomb King of all Mean imagine being that guy in that plane going I am getting cancer for sure For sure do they even know they're getting cancer probably not probably not Do you know that all the guys that worked on this one John Wayne movie all wound up getting cancer? Because they were filming it out in the Nevada desert. Holy shit. Yeah, which one was that was that? I don't know, but they did a lot of a have you ever seen the video of the show, all the different tests that they did in Nevada?

No. The plot is radioactive. That's why they let them fucking put casinos there. The Conqueror, considered the worst film of 1950, suffered from a toxic working environment and was filmed near a nuclear test site. Out of the 220 cast and crew members 91 developed cancer. See Joe that is a real toxic working environment. It's not because someone said something you didn't like. The worst movie of his career. The worst movie of his career killed him. Wasn't even worth it. Yeah exactly.

Can you imagine that? That is the worst. At least, let's say you create this incredible movie, a work of art, that will go down in history for generations as an iconic piece of cinematography. And that happened. It would still be awful and excusable, but you'd go, but look at what they created. Has anyone ever seen The Conqueror? I think I want to see it now. Some of those really old bad movies are amazing. Yeah, they're amazing to watch The Genghis Khan movie. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah. Oh my god It's a Genghis Khan movie. That movie is terrible. He played Genghis Khan. It's terrible. John Wayne played Genghis Khan. Bro, that is cultural appropriation to the NTV You would not get away with that in 2024. Cause he did it just like John Wayne Genghis Khan talked like John Wayne and his girlfriend was white I mean, she looks incredibly Mongolian. Did they do anything to him with makeup? It seems like they did they must have done

Yeah, the mustache. Well, what about his face? Not really, huh? No, they've just probably put a little bit of color in there. Genghis Khan I'm theenghis Khan. I'm the fucking man. Look, it was 1956, it was a better time. It wasn't a better time. This is the best time. I know, I'm kidding. Don't you think?

I mean, although complaining we do, this is the best time. Of course it is. It's a great time to be alone. Well, this is also a time where you have... There's a very interesting thing that's going on. Look how bad this looks. It's really corny. He looks Iranian, mate.

Yeah. Well that wasn't him there. Oh, this is John. This is John. ...a sword, and eyes to see, your treacherous head is not safe on your shoulders, nor your daughter in her bed. First of all, dudes back then just didn't work out. No.

You know? But they were seen as the epitome of masculinity. Crazy. Look at that. That's because nobody knew any better. And also- If Evander Holyfield was standing there holding that thing up, you're like, damn, Evander Holyfield in his prime? You're like, damn, that's what a man looks like. Not this bullshit. Yeah, but I don't Feel this gang is kind of

But you're so right Joe I mean we can't complain and I think there's a lot of things to fear about the future and there's a lot of shit That's fucked up right now. But at the same time It's an amazing time to be alive and look at the three of us what we do is sit and chat shit on the internet yeah and it's a great life yeah it is a great life and it's it's also uniquely educational right look there's so many things that I know that I would have never known I've never been even interested in knowing but because I have this opportunity just to be able to talk to people, I've had

a total accidental education. Yeah, and it's also your listeners and your viewers as well are getting that education as well. Like how many people, like men and women, grow up in a really poor rural part of America, all over the world, and they don't have access to a quality of education because of whatever reason, all of a sudden they can go online and whatever they're interested, they can find. If they're interested in astrophysics, they can sit down and listen to one of the greatest astrophysicists in the world, explain string theory, whatever it may be, and they have access to that information. Whereas before, before forget it it doesn't matter how talented you were if you didn't have

Access to that information you're done. You're never gonna realize your talent Yeah, I mean just imagine growing up in the 1950s or when the John Wayne movie was made Your your access to information was so and people could lie to you. You had no idea There's no Google someone just tells you some crazy story about their past. You have to believe it. I mean, it was so easy back then to be like a con man. Right. You just trick people into giving you money.

I'm actually a prince. And you just have some crazy story and people are like, it's actually a prince. Yeah. Think about this in medieval times, if you were just a normal person, like a peasant or whatever, you probably never leave your village.

Yeah. You probably never read a book you probably you the sum total of knowledge that you have is the equivalent of like two days at school for us yeah that's how little information people had yeah and you you you're listening to mythology and all superstitions and you're terrified of everything there's witch doctors and yeah who know and by the and you're terrified of everything, there's witch doctors and who knows? And by the time you're dying, you're just recognizing the hustle. By the time you're, I mean, if you're a 40-year-old man,

you're just starting to realize, oh, this is kind of, I think this thing's rigged. It takes a long ass time to see how complicated, and then to have so many interactions with people that you realize how sometimes people don't really say what they think They kind of say what they're expected to say and they self-sense and you see that and people are I can't talk to him anymore And you get it and you get this you get an education of human beings that it's based on interactions It takes forever and everyone's so different

We all assume that other people are gonna think the way we think and they just fucking don't. They don't. And if you have this rigid idea of how people should think about things and you encounter this wide variety of different ways of thinking about things, it makes you a little more hesitant to cling on to your ideas. Because I think too many people think of their ideas as a part of them. Like they're just ideas. You're you and who you are, the value in you is your ability to not attach to ideas.

The ability to look at ideas for what they're, even if you think they're amazing, say why you think they're amazing, but they're not a part of you. So don't argue them like they're a part of you. Let people have differing opinions on them and then address those differing opinions in a relaxed way. That can be done instead of all this yelly, shouty, childish bullshit that so many people engage in that just makes people more

tribal. It just makes people and then they fucking dunk on each other and back and forth. It's just dumb. It's a dumb way for smart people to behave. It's what happens when you let your ego get involved. When your ego is the most important thing. When you think you are the most important thing as you walk into any room or you participate in any conversation or interaction. And the reality is you're not important. You're important in some ways, into your family and whatever else, but in the grand scheme of things, you just see these people and the outrage and the anger

they feel because all of a sudden, their sense of self has been challenged, and they are not mentally or spiritually robust enough to be able to push back on that challenge or to be able to accept that challenge. And it creates this kind of, you almost see it like it's a kind of mini ego death where they just freak out and you go, we're just having a conversation. Yeah, freak out over an idea. Well, this is what I was saying earlier about we have to be able to disagree with each other and criticize other people's ideas and what they say without thinking that it's about the person.

You're not attacking the person. You can disagree with someone strongly. That's what I'm saying about RFK's jeans. We're talking about clothing people, not the other type. I also think that men in particular, a lot of men, have a desire to compete in things and if you're not competing with yourself, like you're not running and trying to like make your time better or working out or whatever the thing that's difficult to do, if you don't have one of those,

then you start using whatever your job is or whatever your ideology is as your way of competing. And you try to enforce it on people or come up with better arguments or dunk on the people that disagree or you know harshly criticize them as a human being because you have different opinions. Yeah I sometimes fall into that trap and it's something I'm really trying to work on because like whenever I watch you disagree with people I think it always makes me think that that's

a good way to do it because you're always very careful, you're very respectful, you're very calm about it. Well, not always, I think you and crowd are of a weed, that got pretty intense, but apart from that, lots of times I've seen you disagree with people, and it's clear that you don't agree, but you're just trying to explore the argument. Yeah, you get better at doing that.

Yeah. It's a skill. I'm really trying to learn that for sure. It's also important to recognize how people are taking in your words and thoughts. You know, especially when you were doing like the kind of stuff that we do where we're just kind of free-balling. You're making a thing, right? You're having a conversation but you're also making a digestible piece of media. You're making a thing and the best way to make that

thing is to try to get the most understanding of what this person's trying to say Even if you disagree with them, so I want to know why you I don't want to just know that you think this I want to know why you think this and I'll let you go not even if I disagree I want to I want to hear you. I don't even if I disagree sometimes I don't even have to challenge you on it I just I'm really interested even if I don't agree I'm really interested in how you come to your conclusions and what other information do you take into account? And what is your personality like? Like are you, is this your identity? Are you fighting for this? This, you see this a lot with like these really

aggressive liberal men. Like it seems to be their station in life. They're the watchmen on the tower. There's like this aggressive and it's generally these weak, really weak, physically weak, mentally weak men that have adopted this aggressive stance, like finally like they're the bullies now, and they're gonna go out. It's it's interesting. So if you talk to someone that has like that sort of a philosophy, if you just talk to them about general life enough It sort of reveals itself the the cracks in the way they think in the lack of character and the lack of

Discipline and most importantly the lack of compassion When when people disagree with someone and they hate them as a human being because they have differing ideas disagree with someone and they hate them as a human being because they have differing ideas instead of saying, I think that if I talk to them, I could give them my perspective and maybe it would be enlightening or maybe we would find common ground. No, it's like hate them as a person and it's cherished. It's saluted online in the mental illness known as social media, the mental illness factory, these people are all like engaging in this back and forth. And you see these people that have finally found their competitive realm. And that's a that flavors a big part of why men talk

and behave that way. There's like an there's an instinct to want to be good at a thing and beat people at a thing, whether it's chess, or whether it's golf, whatever it is, there's a thing, and maybe for you it's politics, and for a lot of guys I know it's politics, because I see them online, I see what they're doing, I see the writing they're doing, they're just fishing for the right words and saying the right things to try to dunk on people,

and it's just their little competitive venture. It's a fear-based response, I think, a lot of it. It's something that I've tried to look at now. When I see people get aggressive, when I see people behave in a certain way, I'm like, oh, you're scared. Yeah. You see that from the right too. Oh, definitely.

The really shitty right-wing people that are very dismissive of entire swaths of people and culture and don't take into consideration the nuance involved in say like crime-ridden areas and how those things became that way in the first place all that pulled them up by their bootstraps bullshit all that no need for any social safety net stuff like all that like lack of compassion lack of caring about people that that masquerades as conservatism. That's just as gross. And there's a kind of woke-ification that's happening on the right. They've got their own conspiracies, their own little trigger points, all of these ideas.

Do they? Like what's a big one? Well, I wrote a piece actually when Tucker went to Moscow because I thought that his conversation with Putin was... I clearly didn't go the way he intended, but it was fine. I had no issue with him interviewing Putin. But the videos he did afterwards, he was kind of like, it felt to me like he was starting to, you know, the woke people, they hate America and they hate everything the West stands for. And there is a movement on the right where it's like they hate the elite so much that they will go to Russia and be impressed and think that the food is cheaper when it's three times more expensive for the average

person you know in Russia it is yeah of course so was he trying to say it was cheaper he did say it was cheaper yeah objectively it is cheaper as in if you come in with your American salary but comparatively it's much more expensive because Russian salaries far less right so they spend three times as much money on food he talked about how they have these shopping carts when you return it right and all of this stuff Don't you just have to become an oligarch then that's easy And you have all the money in the big yacht. It's very hard nowadays. Yeah. Yeah, they steal your your yacht Yeah

So in the 90s the oligarchs basically seized all the money and then Putin came in and he got rid of all the oligarchs And all his buddies are now the oligarchs. It's been like nationalized, the corruption. I bet they have great parties though. They do. If I was partying with Putin, that'd be so scary. But you can't go too near the balcony because a lot of their balconies are slippy

and they fall off. Oh yeah. You know, if you look at Trunk, Vodka, they slip. They just slip and fall on diamond. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We just shoot drones at people okay it's like both both of them do shady shit if you look at all the people that have died in mysterious ways in this country where it's a little suspect that maybe there was some government involvement right.

Yeah recently killed our president you know. We just had Michael Francis on do you know him? I've seen him online what you think about that well we hadn't it was interesting conversation about the Mafia life and everything else but when we did the paywall section for locals at the end he talked about how like it was an open secret in his circles that the Mafia killed JFK basically mm-hmm that was his take yeah and they would they would they were talking about it for ages and they were even joking about it. So when, for instance, Bobby went after the mob, people in the mob were going, huh, killed

the wrong Kennedy. You know, because, and he was saying that it was J Edgar Hoover who was in cahoots with the Mafia, and the thing with J Edgar Hoover was he was gay, Mafia ran gay clubs, they had the dirt on him being a gay man which whenever this was in mid 60s early 60s you couldn't be an openly gay man. Right and he was also a guy who of course if you're gonna be the guy that has secrets you want the secrets on everybody else so that's what he did like J Edgar Hoover was famous for that. Yeah.

This guy would bring you into the office and show you pictures of you fucking some lady that's not your wife. You got any questions? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I think you know how to vote, right? Yeah. Do that. Yeah. Stay the fuck out of my office. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, dirt back then, they could just, there was no internet internet if they printed a story about you you're fucked It's rap. Everyone's gonna believe it. There's no way you could be like that's not even real. It's Photoshop like there's so many of the photos of Lee Harvey Oswald that are in dispute and one of them. It's a really weird one

It's him standing there with a rifle standing in the backyard and photo experts have looked at and go This is like the shadows are all wrong here like this photo looks manipulated like they just take this photo of Lee Harvey Oswald have him holding up some agenda or I forget what it was and a rifle like hmm have you seen that photo nope see you can find that I would like to know if like real photographer photography experts have ever examined it because I know that it's a subject of a lot of controversy They think it was a doctored photo, but he most certainly was a CIA guy. He went to Russia He married a Russian lady they let him come back over here

Like he probably they were probably all in on it He was probably in on it, too And they probably had him set up as being the the dummy that they were to say. And then they had Jack Ruby set up to kill him. So that'll be, that's it, we're done here. And until the Zapruder film got aired on Geraldo Rivera's show, no one had any idea. There was some weirdness to that assassination. Everybody assumed Lee Harvey Oswald was a terrible man and he shot our favorite president. And then, you know, this guy who ran a club hated him because he shot

the president so he shot him and that's it good night. Mate it's just you when you look at these types of things and the more you dig you the more you kind of realize that there's cover up upon cover up upon cover up and what is initially being fed to you ain't the truth So here's the photograph. Do they think it's legit here? Settling the controversy over photo of Lee Harvey Oswald. This is from Dartmouth So, you know that it's corrupt and funded by the Chinese Just kidding

What do they say? Do they say it's real? They think it's legit they say? Do they say it's real? I'm trying to dig through it real quick. Do they think it's legit? Our detailed analysis of Oswald's pose, the lighting and shadows in the rifle's hand refutes the argument of photo tampering. Interesting. There you go Joe, debunked. A pioneering researcher in digital forensics whose team developed mathematical and computational techniques to detect tampering in photos, videos, audio recordings, and other documents. Fareed has examined the photo closely before in studies in 2009, 2010, but these studies did not address

the questions about Oswald's pose. In the new study, Fareed and his team conducted a 3D stability analysis, concluding that, in fact, Oswald's dance does not support the claims of photo tampering. The study appeared in the Journal of Digital Forensics, Security and Law. So it seems like in 2009 and in 2010,

they thought it was monkeyed with. And then they got that Chinese money. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Go back to the photo again. But here's the thing. Why wouldn't he pose like that?

The guy was a psycho. I mean, Lee Harvey Oswald was a mess, period, and probably an agent. What part of it did they think was fake? I don't know think the they thought they that it was someone else standing there like that Yeah, they I think there was some argument about the proportions of the body that it didn't quite mash Lee Harvey What's he supposed to be holding like tickets to Russia or something? Yeah to take it? Magic tickets are that big. Yeah, they used to be probably without me. Yeah, especially back in the. Imagine if tickets were that big?

They used to be. Probably weren't that big in the time. Especially back in the day. No, it's... That's the thing, because... They definitely killed Kennedy. Wasn't just one guy. When you put forward that theory, where you go,

this feels sus, and then they never released the documents. I think it was time, wasn't it? Still. Still. Still. And Trump. Why didn't Trump release them? No, he was going to and he said he was and then he never did.

That's what I'm asking, why didn't he do it? I think his direct quote was, if they showed you what they showed me, you wouldn't release it either. What the fuck does that mean? It means it's probably proof that someone that is trackable had Kennedy assassinated, and then there was a conspiracy probably involving at least some members of the intelligence agency. So why wouldn't... Because then it would call into... people would lose confidence entirely in the intelligence agencies

If they knew that the intelligence agencies had not just gotten rid of Richard Nixon, which Tucker explained I'm sorry saw that like that's a wild thing to know that a guy was an naval intelligence officer gets a job as a reporter and his first job as like an aspiring reporter is job as a reporter and his first job as like an aspiring reporter is you get the biggest story in fucking United States history and that CIA agents broke into Watergate and that the guy who they had put into position as the vice president Gerald Ford was the guy was on the Warren Commission report and that Spear Agnew who is the real vice president they got him on tax evasion and locked him up like this it seems like a coup

that that that Woodward was getting his information from the FBI like the whole thing was wild when you hear about it that way when like the way Tucker laid it out you're like whoa so they killed Kennedy and apparently what Tucker was saying is that Nixon had said that he knew why they killed JFK and That was the head of the CIA. He was talking to so it was at the time did not respond at all and Then next thing you know like within a short amount of time Nixon's out Wow I guess what I'm asking Joe is surely not releasing it under mines confidence as well

It certainly does but not as much because it's still a mystery. So it maintains a mystery. It's been a mystery since we were kids. It was the first conspiracy that I ever got into. I was in New York and a friend of mine gave me a book. He said, you gotta read this. It's called Best Evidence by David Lifton.

And it's all about this guy who was an accountant, went over the Warren Commission and he found all these real problems with it, all these contradictions, like it didn't make any sense, it was all pieced together. No one thought anyone was actually gonna read the entire Warren Commission. It's like 9,000 pages or something.

And he did. And there's a lot of problems with it. The big one for me was always the bullet. The bullet's ridiculous. The bullet's ridiculous. That bullet did not go through two fucking people and come out looking like that. That's not what happens to bullets. Bullets get destroyed. They get blown apart. They get fucking they've never been able to shoot a bullet through two people's bodies and have it ricochet and move around

like that and not distort and look like they just shot it into a pool. Looks like they shot it into a bag of pillows. It doesn't look anything like something that shattered bones. And they found more, they found evidence of fragments in Connolly's wrist. And there's not fragments missing from the, there's not enough fragments missing from this magic bullet that they found. And the only reason why they found the magic bullet at all, they had to come up with this theory because a guy had gotten hit by a ricochet in the underpass. So then they had to attribute all these different wounds

to one bullet, wounds on two different people. And bullets do weird shit. The path of the bullet doesn't bother me as much. When people say, like, a bullet's not going to go here and here and here, yeah, it would. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. You could shoot someone in the eye,

and the bullet will bounce around inside their head and come out their face. Weird things happen with bullets and guns So that doesn't bother me as much But the idea that you're completely discounting the fact that he grabs his neck in the beginning and then his head goes back into the left Like what's going on there is he getting shot from behind and it's a spinal movement It's like a shock nerve thing perhaps or perhaps. He's getting shot in the head by two different people too. It could be someone from behind and someone, there could be like a whole line of fire where they're shooting on this guy and

to try to, the only reason why they tried to attribute all those wounds instead of saying more people were shooting is because they wanted one conclusion and that was Lee Harvey Oswald did it and they didn't think he'd be able to shoot more than three times in that short amount of Time that the the president's car was going through there Do you think Trump said that if we take if I knew what he say if I if you knew what I knew You wouldn't want me to release it either right do you think that you said that to someone and then that someone? You know it was that guy who was the Fox legal analyst. An older gentleman. Alan Dershowitz.

No, no, no, no, no, no. An Italian guy. Fuck. Scar- what is his name? Scaramucci. No, no, no, no, no, not Scaramucci. God damn it, I don't remember his name. But he's a guy that was like a legal guy who was always on Fox. He's like, and he had a conversation with Trump allegedly, where he said that, Trump had said that, you wouldn't have released it too.

Do you think they'll ever release him? No. No, no, I don't, I don't think so. Do you think it's kind of this principle where there's a thread on the sweater, if you pull the suit if you pull the thread the sweater unravels do you think that The America is a country wouldn't be able to take the reveal of whatever happened Because it would then go on to undermine people's faith in the nation too much Because if an organized agency like the CIA can go and kill the President of the United States, cover it up for

however many years, then what else is possible? And what does that mean in people who believe in this country? Yeah, yeah I think that's exactly it. And then how much scrutiny would the intelligence agencies of today have to encounter now? Just from things that we know, right? We know that they put agents in crowds at protests. We know that for a fact. Okay, but what do those agents do? Are those agents there in case things go sideways or are those agents making sure things go sideways? Because those are two very different things. So we know both of those things have happened. So we know that they definitely put agents in place to make sure that if something happens,

there's a law enforcement presence, and they could arrest people. We also know that there are rogue agents that will get into these situations, and whether it's their job or whether it's they just act on their own or they want to cause Someone to do a crime so they can bust them. We know that's real. It's agent provocateurs. It's a legitimate strategy It's always been in place then it happens in other countries as well How does it all governments do all governments to it agent provocateurs false flags all those things are real? Yeah, they the the Northwoods report which Kennedy vetoed Yeah, they the the Northwoods report which Kennedy vetoed

Operation Northwoods they were gonna blow up a fucking drone jetliner and blame it on the Cubans They were gonna arm Cuban friendlies and fuck up Guantanamo Bay They were just kind of try to get us to war with Cuba by bullshit and this was the Joint Chiefs of Staff They signed off on it. They're like sounds good I like it good plan solid plan and the argument against it is well They draft a lot of different plans and that one got vetoed obviously like what but no no you can't You can't lie you can't say one of our plans is to lie don't don't lie like that shouldn't be on the table You shouldn't be able to lie to people not just lie, but set up fake attacks Especially after you just did it in Vietnam

they didn't got away with it the Gulf of Tonkin incident that got us into Vietnam so they've always been doing that and so if they came out and gave us all the information on the Kennedy assassination it would cause an erosion in our faith in government that is never been seen before and I don't know how we would survive it. I mean maybe they're right, maybe they're right, maybe keep it quiet, maybe don't do it anymore, but maybe keep it quiet because if you do release that information I bet the only thing that makes sense is that that's the case. It doesn't make sense that it's innocuous and there's nothing to it and Lee Harvey Oswald

Act alone. They would release that. Oh for sure well there's definitely something going on the question is what is it? That's the dude yeah. Judge Napolitano. He's saying that Trump told him. Yes exactly exactly. Wow. That's fucking crazy man. Yeah I mean that's the thing about Trump is that you listen to what that guy says you went yeah Trump definitely said that. But they hide things from Trump too. Apparently they were hiding the Chinese weather balloons. They were hiding the spy balloons from him because they were afraid he was going to shoot him down. Find out if that's true. I might have seen that on Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I've got the best accuracy. They've never seen accuracy like this before.

Boom! He died like a dog. He'd finish with that. He died like a dog. Yeah. Three Chinese balloons flew over the US during Trump presidency. Trump wasn't offered a chance to shoot them down at the time. It's true. That's fucking insane. Trump wasn't, I like how they say they hit it from him. This is how they say they hit it from him. Trump wasn't offered a chance to shoot them down at the time.

He wasn't offered the chance at the time. Cause they knew what would happen. Cause they didn't tell him that he could shoot them down. That's so funny man. They're hiding that from the, they don't trust the president and they're hiding that that's insane it's it's insane it's insane well fucking who the fuck are they who voted for them exactly yeah exactly yeah that's the thing but when you get a guy like Trump who becomes president it seems so ridiculous that

he's president all rules go out the window half the country voted for this 100% fuck yeah look I probably wouldn't have voted for Trump in 2016, but half the country did. It was like the same with Brexit. We didn't vote for Brexit, but half the country did. That's what democracy looks like is sometimes you don't get your way. How fucking complicated is that to understand? Yeah, but if you're a corrupt piece of shit and you're very un-American, then you feel like you should be able to do that. Or frame it another way, if you believe that this guy Pru is such a danger to democracy, that's how you argue it with yourself. That's how you square it. You go, look, I'm doing the right thing here, I'm protecting my country, I'm stepping in

when this person is clearly, you know, not fit to hold office, blah, but I'm not saying I agree with it. That's the real problem with the real misinformation media narrative, like the Russia collusion hoax. Oh, man. That's a real problem because that in so many boomers' minds, that guy was corrupt. Russia had something on him. There's the Steele dossier, his hookers and PP and all that stuff. Pentagon may have purposely hidden spy

balloon from Trump. He made the claim. He made the claim but what was that other articles quote that Trump wasn't offered the opportunity to shoot it down? What was the source of that? This is so he's saying this because Trump denied that it even happened under his administration. Oh but it did but they did happen so they didn't tell him. Or he lied. That's what this is, is he spoke to someone that says it. That would never happen. Some speculation. And there's some speculation, I talked to Trump with the White House officials over the weekend that the Pentagon deliberately did it because

they thought Trump would be too provocative and too aggressive. Yeah. It's unbelievable. But it's amazing that they think that they could tell him that. But listen, that's the whole idea. If you really want to have a president, and this, ladies and gentlemen, is how AI is going to take over. Because AI is going to be so much more reasonable how it runs the country. Just give in to Microsoft AI.

Yes. I think. Yeah. One thing, if you really want to blow your own mind with this, is if you think about where the large language models are getting their information from where the AI is gathering its opinions about what human beings are We all know that everything that happens online is not representative of the real world But that is where the AI models are gathering their information. That's what they're reading what people are writing online So we are training these systems to think of us

as the online shit that we all know is fake. We all know people don't talk online the way they talk like in person, right? We all know that everything that happens there is a warped perception of reality, yet that is exactly what AI is learning about who we are. But don't you think that the Google AI is a little bit more sinister than that?

I don't think it's as simple as it's just getting all its information online because then there would be arguments. There's a lot of arguments online as to whether or not you know trans women should be able to compete in women's sports. But if you ask those AIs they come up with reasons why it should. Yeah. And if you have an ideologically programmed AI that's not really AI it's kind of like a propaganda it's you're it's it's not just looking at the opinions of all the people online it's just not no no no what there is I think is probably just because most of the people who are doing the programming lean that way to them

this isn't this is an ideological to them it's the truth. Yeah exactly. They have the truth, they know what it is, hashtag no debate. No point debating, no point discussing, we know what the truth is and anyone who disagrees with us, they're far right. And what do we do with people who are far right? Cancel them, put them in jail. Cancel or put them in jail or maybe we need a final solution Joe Well, you know if somebody is a gender critical maybe you know

Maybe they just need to be put somewhere permanently well they certainly shouldn't be allowed to work. No absolutely It's so funny these people went so far. They're like they think JK Rowling is a Nazi It's so funny, these people went so far, they think JK Rowling is a Nazi. They still haven't woken up, they still haven't gone, maybe there's something wrong with our argument if JK Rowling is on the other team? Oh man, it's so funny. Did you see this tweet from... She's a beast though, man. She's going at it.

She's going at it. She's dug her heels in. Yeah, good for her. Yeah, good for her. You know, there's this left-wing journalist, I'm not going to say Yeah. Good for her. Yeah, good for her. You know, there's this left-wing journalist, I'm not going to say the name, but her tweet made me laugh so much. She put out this tweet going, I'm writing this tweet to apologize.

On March the 13th, I called JK Rowling a Holocaust denier. It's just like- A Holocaust denier? Why did she comment that? Because in her mind, it's the same thing. If you say trans women aren't women, you should also say Auschwitz didn't happen. And I feel so strongly about it as someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust. What they've done to those words Holocaust, denier, Nazi, far right, is abominable. It really

is. What they have done to those words, the way they've diluted the meaning of these words that have very specific meanings, it's horrific. And it's, by the way, it's costing us now because we can't have a genuine conversation about like, some people are Holocaust deniers, some people are actually supportive of those ideologies, right? And you have to be able to distinguish between that and someone who thinks trans women shouldn't be fighting in a cage with real women. There's like some fucking difference there.

There's a gap between them. A little bit. Yeah, just a little bit. A little bit of a gap. And words, like they have a meaning for a purpose so that we can have a conversation. Yeah, it's such an important point. And the worst bit is you have these people

who are genuinely far right, they're terrifying, they have these awful views, and then when they're challenged they go, I'm not far right because you've said this person is far right, that term doesn't mean anything and you're like, you know what Adolf, you've got a point mate. Yeah, it's a real problem because far right people, dangerous far-right people are real. Just like dangerous far-left people are real. And that's why being on this goofy team, left or right, is so stupid. You gotta think for yourself.

You gotta think for yourself. And life is complicated and it's full of complexity and nuance and nobody has the full picture of reality. That's why you gotta talk. That's why you need Jesus. I mean, that's what Jordan's talking mean that's what Jordan is talking about. That's what Jordan is talking about. Yeah he is. Well structure, some kind of divine structure, something, whatever it is. I mean I know a lot of people that are Muslims that are very happy and they're happy because of the discipline that it gives them. They believe, they

believe. It gives them a structure and a lot of people out there don't have that and I don't think that's good either. No. No, it's he's really in the inquirer of it. His current tour is called We Who Wrestle with God. And he's really, I mean what he's really doing is telling people stories from the Bible and illustrating and breaking down how they apply to your life. And it's amazing. I mean, I'm not a believer. Well, yeah, I'm not, I guess. But seeing the difference that makes to people, just him telling them how to live a good life, thousands of people every night and then they aren't there for his like culture war takes. Right. They aren't there

to see him take down Justin Trudeau or whatever. They're there cause he's, like we were in a cigar bar in Tulsa with the guy who does the music, David Cotter. And we were just sitting there and the guy came up, he was at the show, started talking. And before we knew it, there was like three guys there. And one of, I mean, I remember one of them, especially, Devin, a black guy, he was saying,

like, I don't know about his politics. People say all this crazy shit like when my sister died Jordan Peterson's 30 second clip on the internet is the only reason I didn't kill myself. Wow. And I've been hearing those stories every night man. It's... Well he has a very profound impact on people for sure. Yeah. And he also struggles with fame which is a weird thing to be introduced to when you're in your 40s. You know, you've been anonymous your whole life, and then all of a sudden you're a polarizing, often misrepresented world figure. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's how unfair it is, is the way, and I'll take real exception to this, the way that he's been portrayed where people go, he's just like Andrew Tate. And you're going, Yeah, he's got a penis. They drink water. Yeah, man, it's insane. But you know what I have to say, from what I've observed over the last couple of weeks, he's on the other side of all those troubles. That's good. Yeah, you know, I've never met anyone whose message and the person are so closely aligned. Like he's a great man. He is a great man. And last time he was here, he was like at his best.

He struggled coming back from the benzodiazepine problem. That's a scary one, man. That's a really scary one. No, he's through that and like just observing him day to day, because you know, when you spend time with people, you see them at their worst and at their best. I've never met anyone who's inspired me as much to be a good person. That's awesome.

Yeah, I always say he's insanely misrepresented, and he's a great guy, but he's so polarizing. You see, whenever there's some sort of a Jordan Peterson thing, a story or anything, I'll read what people have to say about it. It's like, god damn. It's again, also indicative of the kind of people that post things like that.

That's not generally a healthy person who's posting aggressively shitty misrepresenting. But it's very common that there's people like that, especially on Twitter or on Facebook or any of these places that just encourage mental illness, which is a lot of what it is Yeah, here's the thing though man in the real world. He's selling out fucking basketball arenas Yeah And it's full of well-dressed people who are there with their partner that they met because of the advice he gave them or they're there To meet him because he's changed their life or they didn't kill themselves or they got a job or whatever. That's the impact he's

actually making on people's lives and it's so impressive. Yeah we need more people like that. We need way more people like that. Yeah we need more people that show an example, an interesting fascinating example of how to live your life. The problem is is that we live in a world of shortcuts. If you want an online following, we all know what we can do in order to get an online following. It's not particularly hard. You can game the system. You know the tweets to write and that will then gain traction, which will gain you followers,

whatever else. You know what you have to do if you want to create content online when it comes to podcasts that will get people talking. We all know it. But actually it's far, far, far more difficult to be authentic and to actually say, you know what, I'm going to do something because it's the right thing to do. Not because it's going to benefit me in the short term, not because it's going to lead to certain deals, not because it's going to lead me to this particular place where my ego demands that I should be. I'm actually going to take the long route. I'm going to

do what's right. And we live in a society where we're constantly being offered the shortcut all the time. And we know that if we take the shortcut, we're going to get a little bit of a response from our brain, we'll go, well done on taking the shortcut. It takes a hell of a lot of discipline, hard work, and sometimes real frustration to go, I'm not going to take the shortcut. I'm not going to be inflammatory. I'm not going to say the thing that I know will guarantee clicks and more money and more revenue. I'm going to go this path.

And I just have to have the courage of my own convictions that where this path will lead me will be somewhere where I want to be as opposed to somewhere that I know definitely in the long term will take me on the route to hell, because that's where some people are. It's so interesting you say hell because I never really understood when people ask Jordan about heaven and hell he always brings it back to heaven and hell on earth. And what he's really saying is, like, every decision you make, when you know it's the wrong decision, you're going to pay for that. Not in some fucking magic world afterwards when you're dead. You're going to pay for that in this life. And when you make good decisions, that's not to say

that good things don't happen to bad people and bad things don't happen to good people. But over the course of a lifetime, every bad decision you make will come back. And we all know this is true. Like it's a kind of, what you're talking about is the opposite of the Marshmallow test, right? Like the ability to suspend gratification is the best predictor of long-term success, right?

And so if you're able to just wait and not jump on this dopamine hit right now, over the course of your life that will be rewarded. And that's basically the model he's giving people, just be good, you know what, you know, and his argument is you do need God. His definition of God is different to most people's, but it's fundamentally, he's just going around telling people how to live their lives in a positive way. How is it different? How is his view of God? It's very difficult to get to it. He doesn't like being asked if he believes in God because his thing is like, well, what you're doing is you're saying like, there's a garden gnome

in the sky, do you believe in that? And it's a way of trivializing his belief about it. You'd have to ask him directly, but I think, you know, him and I have gone back and forth. He really brought me over to argue with him and try and challenge his ideas from just an outsider perspective, really. So we've gone back and forth. I think his idea is that the way he talks about it is like God is the opposite of evil. God is how you know what is right and what is wrong and it's something that leads you up instead of leading you down. That's what he thinks of as God. It's like the fundamental question is where does morality come from?

And his argument is the evolutionary theory may well be true but it's insufficient particularly insufficient to give us meaning and for the West to survive. How do you survive how does a civilization of people who don't know what they believe in survive in the battle of civilization with people who do know what they believe in who have a strong idea but you mentioned mentioned Islam, for example, right? How do you navigate that when you don't know what you believe, when you don't know what you stand for, when you can't even say not believing

in free speech is un-American? Right, yeah. How do you, if you've got no values of your own, how are you gonna navigate the world in that way, right? And so his argument is very much that we need to, we need to be inspired by something divine to be our best selves and to know who we are. That's such a profound thing because when people say to be inspired by the divine they automatically think of God. But the reality is you can find God in anywhere. And if you're to be inspired by the divine,

is, you can find God in anywhere. And if you're to be inspired by the divine, for me it's to be, the thing that I love the most is to be creative, is to write, is to be in that moment where you are writing and you're like, oh this idea, and this idea, and this idea, and you feel whatever, disregard the end product, but that moment is to be divine because you are truly at one with what you are, who you are, and what you love and you are passionate about the most. That is the divine. Now for somebody else it can be another type of thing. Love would be a big part of it. Like when you are in love and you're truly present with the person you love, it kind of feels infinite. It kind of feels like that moment is, it's, you can't exactly be measured in time. You can't go, oh that was 63 seconds where we stared into each other's eyes and said nothing or whatever that was, right? And I think part of it's exactly what you're saying is there's these states that we go into in relation to ourselves or to other people that

transcend the reality in which we exist. And I think that may well be a part of his, you know, you have to ask him because his views are complicated, but it's kind of part of his definition, I think, of what God is. Yeah, because, and I think deep down that's what we're all looking for, really, is to be in this state where we're not thinking about ourselves, because thinking about ourselves is why we're so miserable, because we're being trained continually, going on social media, doing this, what am I doing, myself, myself, myself. That's the way to end up perpetually, thoroughly miserable and aversion of hell.

But to be in a state where you are creating, where you are doing something that you love, where you are with people that you love, with your children, your wife, your partner, whoever it is, and you have that connection, that really is, that's life, is the connection. And the opposite of life, for me, is disconnection. To me there is nothing more tragic than when I sit down at a table and I look over at a restaurant and I see a beautiful young couple, they're in the bloom of life, they're youthful, they're in that moment where potential seems limitless and they're both staring down at their phones and they're not looking into each other's eyes.

And you want to say to them, what are you doing? And I know we all do it and I'm as guilty of it as anyone, I'm not saying that I'm not, but that moment when you have that connection with love, I think that's what we're all seeking deep down. It's what we all crave. There is, you know, and his argument is that, you know, what we saw in the 20th century is, as Nietzsche predicted, the death of God causing the breakdown of our belief and therefore World War II and everything that happened there, Mao, the Soviet Union, etc.

About the 21st century though, I think there's maybe something else going on as well, which is we've mentioned the sexual revolution and people having fewer kids. And also, people being crammed into cities, the urbanization that we've mentioned the sexual revolution and people having fewer kids. And also people being crammed into cities, the urbanization that we've seen over the last 150 years changes everything. Like I remember reading a book by a guy called, he was a zoologist, Desmond Morris. And the book was called The Human Zoo.

He wrote a book called It Naked Ape, but The Human Zoo is the one I'm thinking of. And his central argument was when you put animals in the conditions that human beings live in big cities You get the same pathologies mental health violence, you know Atomization depression all the same shit happens. And so you've got urbanization You've got the pill which changes testosterone levels in men Women are attracted to men with lower testosterone. That would be one driver. Another driver would be to get in a water supply.

You know, the Alex Jones making the frog gay point turns out it's kind of true. And then you put all that together and then you add the death of belief and you've got a very powerful mix to explain what's going on. Yeah, the Alex Jones thing, it's atrazine, right? Is that what it is?

Yeah, it's a pesticide, I believe. Okay. Is it an herbicide or a pesticide? So it's not the pill? It's not the contraceptive pill getting into the water supply? That's not what he was saying was turning the frogs. Okay. There's a thing called, I believe it's called atrazine, and what it does is it will actually turn male frogs into females. They actually morph and it makes a bunch of them incapable of breeding. It has like very weird endocrine disruptor effects. So that's in the water supply.

There's stuff in the water supply that's messing with the hormones and all that kind of stuff. I think birth control pills are in the water supply too. Yeah, for sure. And plastics and the microplastics and they have a... And even like ant-depressants. Right. Some water supplies have trace amounts

of anti-depressants in them. And cocaine as well. Down, down, down, down. Yeah. Well, there's some good news. But... If you have a particularly energetic population, what are you making your pasta with, Mike?

So, and then, you know, the sexual revolution also causes the breakdown of the family. Far fewer people are growing up in an intact household. You put all that shit together and you get to where we are. Yeah. And it's so interesting as well. Like you see people talking in the UK and they go, oh, Britain doesn't have, there's no such thing as British culture.

And you're going, you just, let's just look at what Britain has created in terms of literature art philosophy theatre music You're saying there's no culture and then but if you said this to a lot of young people they simply look at you and nod Well, why are they allowed to say that because it's white people? Yeah, a lot of it. I think I think a lot of it would be yeah

But it's also like some that seems so silly though, in terms of like arguing the evidence. I think the confusion that people have is, I think especially after World War II, there was this idea that nationalism, like that was nationalism, and patriotism leads to nationalism, therefore you shouldn't be patriotic because then you're going gonna end up just like Hitler. Which seems a little bit tenuous to me. Like there's quite a lot of intermediary steps there. People are allowed to be proud of their country and love their country without being aggressive about it. Yeah, you don't have to be Hitler.

You don't have to be. It seems fucking obvious. Yeah. It seems fucking obvious, right? Well, especially in a country like this that's essentially founded by immigrants. So obviously there's some people here first, but after that it's immigrants. And so the whole idea is that we all agree,

this is supposed to be a place where you have the First Amendment, freedom of speech. It's a very important part of what it means to be an American. It's a big part of the whole setup. The whole way it runs is people had to have very controversial ideas, be willing to risk their lives and come here from another country to try to set up shop, try to set up this new way of living. And it's the best way.

It's not perfect, but it's the best way currently available. And if you're trying to fight that in any way, specifically, if you're trying to fight the very First Amendment, you're un-American. It's really simple. amendment. You're un-American. It's really simple. And to your point, if you think about what you were just talking about, which is the history of your country, 1776 and all the rest of it, if you had these people trying to shut down freedom of expression as they are now, that would never happen. The pamphlets go out, oh this is hate speech, ban it. They're disrupting the fabric of whatever the argument is.

Exactly. Shut it down. Shut it down. Shut it down. Yeah. What do you, when you, do you ever take like an overview approach to like society and just stop and think like where is this all going and why is it so contentious and chaotic? Is this just the only way that human beings are able to progress? Is they have to be constantly at battle and then they kind of both have to kind of improve their positions as time goes on.

Well, look at our societies. I mean, it's kind of weird discussing any of these conflicts around the world because you have to be able to hold two things in your head at the same time. On the one hand, war is horrific. It's fucking horrific. So one of the worst things that humans being do to each other. And on the other hand, is completely normal. Look around, you go to London, where you go to Trafalgar Square, named after the Battle of Trafalgar.

What do you see there? Nelson's Column, named after Admiral Nelson. You go to Paris, what do you see? The Arc de Trump, right? Every society defines itself by the conflicts it's fought and won. So it just seems like this isn't, I mean, we're bands of chimps

and chimps go to war and so do we. It just seems like, I don't think we're ever gonna get out of that paradigm until we're those fat motherfuckers with milkshakes floating around on pods. Maybe that's what we need to do in order to guarantee world peace. You'd love that wouldn't you mate? Yeah I would do mate, just going to my base instincts.

Fuck it. Yeah. I'll be like definitely. But it's instincts, fuck it. I'd be like, definitely. But it's also, we had a guy on the show way back when we started, a guy that I grew up with called Dr. Mike Martin, and he's a professor of war studies, former military guy, really smart guy, and he was talking about oxytocin, and he wrote a book called Why We Fight, which is the evolutionary biological analysis of warfare. Why is that human beings fight?

And he talked about oxytocin. And oxytocin is the hormone that you feel... You feel it. It's the tingly hormone when you go to a concert. And, you know, the band comes on and does their big hit, which is massive and anthemic, and everybody stings along, and you get the little tingle in the back of the neck. And that hormone has two functions. Number one, it creates an in-grouple in the back of the neck. And that hormone has two functions. Number one, it creates an in-group to say, we are the group, this is who we are, right? And that was very, very necessary for evolutionary reasons. Obviously, the second

part of its function, it creates suspicion of the out-group. So you go, it's kind of hardwired into us. That we're like, we're this group and we're a little team. And then, we don't like them. And then when you kind of see society, people going, I'm liberal, I don't like conservatives and vice versa and all the other nonsense, you go, how much of this is actually conscious? And how much of this is actually biologically programmed and is there another factor because I go a bit smug and I go yeah I don't have any tribe or

whatever else and I get on my little high horse and start lecturing you go well that ain't true either but also maybe I don't feel the hormonal maybe it doesn't have as profound impact on me as it does on somebody else. When the moment they're in a tribe they feel this overwhelming sense of acceptance and joy. Yeah, but if someone invaded your town you'd get to that point very quickly. Yeah, that is true. You'd be like, fuck these guys, we're going to the front line. Yeah. We all would, right?

You're a fighter, you'd do that. If someone, your family is under threat, you'd lay down your life for them, right? Yeah, and people think they're engaged in a virtual war. Yeah. They really do. Yeah. They think they're engaged in a virtual war. Yeah, you really do Yeah, they think they're on the right side of things. Everybody else is a Nazi Well, that that's the thing to try and get away from both left and right I think can be guilty of that We just got to try and remember weird

We are on the same team. What was your take on all this Candice Owen daily wire stuff? Oh I don't know if I can say it Well on daily wire stuff. Oh I don't know if I can say it. Really? Well I think that she she's very charismatic and very talented as a broadcaster but I thought her branching out beyond the core issues that she initially focused on was a bit of a disaster. You mean like Macron's wife being a man? Yeah. Catherine, I was like, what are you doing? Right.

So I just, I think the big tragedy of this whole fallout is like, it was the wrong hire for the Daily Wire. It was wrong place. But it was great at the time. Well, yeah, it's because if you're charismatic and you're talking about issues on which you are, you know, accurate, you're gonna do well. Wasn't like her billboard when they first signed her

for the Daily Wild, didn't say like uncancellable? Was it? I think so. See if you can find that, Jamie. I think that's what it said. So I look, I don't wanna like piss, disrespect people and anything. I just think it was the wrong partnership

Probably, you know, what did she say? What that got her fired? Oh, I don't know. I have no idea No I don't know and someone said that one of the controversies online is that she had wrote Christ is King and Put that and someone had said that that was anti-semitic. I think she liked a tweet that was kind of like blood libel. Uncancellable since 1989, Candace. Daily Wire. Watch that, it flips.

It's the problem that if you create an organization whose slogan is free speech, you're never gonna be able to have an editorial policy, which is what they're now trying to have. They're trying to say, well, if you work at this organization, it's like Fox News or CNN or anywhere. Like, as you get bigger, you start to be faced with the fact that people have different opinions

and some people's opinions are gonna be outside of the scope of what the people who run it believe. So if you wanna be independent, you're gonna have to stay independent. By the way, some of those people that have opinions outside the scope of what you're supposed to think are fun. Sure. They're interesting to listen to. I don't necessarily know if Macron's wife is a man, but the story is hilarious. Sure. That there's actual journalists that are working on this and she's reporting their work. The

true story about her meeting him when he was 15 is crazy enough. Yeah, as a drama teacher. That's crazy enough. Like when did you guys start hooking up? Yeah. So I agree with you about fun, but I also think when you are communicating to millions of people, there is an accuracy issue that has to also happen. Yeah. Right?

Especially that one. Right. Like that's kind of a big deal. Well, my take is if that's a man, right, doesn't that man... You just want to talk about Macron's wife, don't you? Sorry, I misunderstood this conversation. They have children? She has children. Look, it's a dumb thing to say, it's not fucking true. Yeah. Right. So, but if it's not true, why do these journalists think it's true? I have no idea man. It's no internet as well man. Like it's the best. Yeah, I mean I

think the issue like Again, it comes down to the fact that you get this huge platform You do very well you build up this massive audience, and then you start going, well, I'm a public figure, I need to have opinions on whatever is going on. And the problem comes, like take Israel-Palestine, I've never spoken about it publicly as to what I think, because the reality is, I don't fucking know. I don't know.

I know, I've got enough to formulate some kind of opinion, but do I want it challenged? Do I want to go up against an expert? Do I want someone to push back on my ideas? No, because I don't really know. I read about it, and I'm just formulating my opinion. But I think the danger comes when you have that type of audience and that type of platform, and you are a political commentator, so you feel compelled to have an opinion about everything, you rapidly wade into things that you know nothing about. And by the way, just to say, like Francis and I,

we have that attitude to ourselves, right? So we're like, we, I'm not sure we should be talking about this cause we, we don't know that we know enough. Yeah, right. So, and it's a hard thing to navigate because what happens is, and you see this with stand-up comics too, it's like you're on stage in front of 100 people

or 1,000 people or 5,000 people, oh, and suddenly your opinion is like important. Suddenly you know what you're talking about because lots of people are listening to you. And there are some things in which you do know what you're talking about. But there's also a shit ton of things that you don't know and you've got to show tomorrow and you've got to have an hour's worth of content.

So here's my opinion on Ukraine, here's my opinion on Israel, here's my opinion about Macron's wife, here's my opinion on this shit. And before you know it, unconsciously I suspect you're in over your head and you're saying things that you are not qualified to comment on. You haven't done the research, you haven't understood that issue, but here you are giving your opinion. And that's a trap for a lot of people in our space.

It really is. It's a trap when you have a mic and you don't know to do what you just said. Wait, formulate these opinions, take in the information, try to figure out what's true and what's not true. And there's a difference between like three guys having a conversation and you go here's my opinion and I go here's my opinion and you go here's my opinion let's have a chat and find out and none of us is attached to that opinion being true, everyone's willing to change their mind,

we're not telling the audience this is the truth. Right. But when you're doing your own show, just you, just you and you're reading an hour's worth of stuff that you've written or someone's helped you write to the camera, that's a very different ballgame. It's a very different conversation. And so I think ultimately the conflict between the Daily Wire and Candice Owens is about that, not about anti-Semitism, whatever.

I just think it was not the right fit, and over time those cracks have widened. That's my understanding from speaking to people on various sides of it. I think everyone's better off being independent anyway. Yeah. I'm sure she's got a giant audience independently now. Sure, I wish her every success.

Agree or disagree on issues, you always want people to do well. Yeah. So, but I just think it was a conflict based on the fact that there's different values, different attitudes do well, you know. But I just think it was a conflict based on the fact that there's different values, different attitudes, different, you know. Did you see that the professor at Columbia today,

a Jewish professor who is pro-Israel, he got locked out. And so there's these videos of him standing in front of the crowd and saying, they are locking me out, they won't let me teach, they won't let me into the building, my car doesn't work anymore because he's pro-Israel.

Right. Joe, there's the funniest thing you gotta see. This 2015 NFL skit, have you seen this? No. Jamie, could you go on my Twitter? It's one of my recent tweets. It says, how did they know? This is the funniest thing I have seen in years.

This is from 2015, 2015, and it's a sketch about a guy dropping his daughter off at college. Jamie are you able to find it? Thank you my brother. 2015 was that right when Jordan Peterson started becoming famous? Was it? I think he was 2016. Yeah, 2016, 2015. What was going on in 2015? 2015 was definitely when he was experiencing that stuff in Toronto. What was going on in 2015 2015 was definitely when he was experiencing that stuff. Yeah in Toronto What was it was 2015 evergreen go go full screen with this? Yeah. Oh my god 2015 what was that sketch?

SNL I said NFL before SNL that wouldn't that was on SNL. Yeah, that's one of the best things SNL's ever done Yeah, that's how good is that, man? That's insane. That bit when he goes, death to America, I was like, yeah, that's what they're saying. Oh my God. That's what they're saying on college campuses. Yeah. They're saying that and this pro-Israeli guy got kicked off.

You just, you actually stop at times and go, what is actually happening? What is actually happening? Well, we've all been talking about it, man. For how many years have we been talking? and go, what is actually happening? What is actually happening? Well, we've all been talking about it, man. For how many years have we been talking? Oppressor-oppressed dynamics inevitably creates this shit. It's inevitable. It's also being influenced by foreign countries.

Yeah. Oh yeah, they will always do that. They did an amazing job at universities. But we have to weaken our own immune system for them to be able to be successful. Yeah, yeah true. And we've also got to offer up our kids. I don't think enough people make this point. There's lots of people pointing the fingers going kids are stupid, kids are this, kids are this, kids are whatever. Yet you're gonna raise kids a certain way they're gonna turn out a certain way. How have you raised them? Is it really the

kids fault? Or actually is the reason you're pointing at them and mocking them and deriding them, because you know you've fucked up. And it's the easy thing to do, to point at the kids when the fact that actually, they've been raised wrong. Yeah, on the other hand, and when you become a parent, you'll maybe see this differently as well, is you only have a certain amount of influence in a society where you send your kids to school, you send them to college, that's what they're taught, the things that they're taught.

They naturally will want to rebel against their parents, that's what all kids want to do. And if they're fed this very simplistic narrative about, you know, life is about there's some people who control everything and they're oppressing everyone and there's lots of people who are oppressed and the way you know who's oppressing who's by who's successful right so what you've built in then is if you're successful you're a bad guy and if you're struggling you're a good guy and then you look at all the different ethnic groups and suddenly you know Asian Americans Jews and whatever these

groups that are quote-unquote overperformed they're over represented once you create the idea that some people are over representedrepresented and some people are under-represented, you inevitably come to this point. Inevitably. People will inevitably start hating successful minorities and they will stop and they will look at everyone else as the oppressed underdog. I mean Thomas Sowell's latest book, Social Justice Fallacies, he talks about how every single brewery, major brewery in the world, was founded by Germans, including Tsingtao, the Chinese brewery. Wow. Because those people have perfected the art of brewing over hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.

And every group is going to have its own advantages and disadvantages. Some people are better at hockey, some people are better at basketball, some people are better at making money by being lawyers, some people are better at making money by being podcasters or something else, right? You can't just look at people as members of groups and go, we know everything about this group, if this group is doing well in society, that means they're oppressors. But that's the position we've come to and it's because of indoctrination and education. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's be honest, it's indoctrination education guided by, you know, funded and supported by foreign powers.

Yeah, and we've allowed it to happen. Yeah, we've allowed it to happen. And kids are getting brainwashed. Yeah, and I completely agree. And you know, that's why I have real empathy for a lot of these kids. I'm like, you've just been fed this crap since you, since the moment you enter the education system, and then you come out at the age of 18, 19 and you're spouting this nonsense. But what do we tell our kids? I used to work in a school, what did we say when I was a teacher? Listen to your teacher.

Don't question, don't challenge, particularly with the younger ones. You do what your teacher tells you to do. If your teacher tells you to do this in maths, you do this in maths. Not only that, it's a person in a position of authority that has control over an entire group of people, which we already know how that dynamic goes with cults and with presidents, with everything else, and then you have this group of people that are filled with anxiety that want to make it in life, and if there's a very clear path that you have to follow, there's just going to be influence to follow it. It's real simple to do to young people. You take them away from their parents, their parents are probably overbearing, they finally get to be themselves, and free pals time. And then they just, from the river to the sea, they're just out there in the streets.

And it's absolutely true. And if you look at, I don't know in America, but in the UK, a teacher is described as being in loco parentis, which means in the role of the parent. So that is your role when you're a teacher in the UK. It's in the role of the parent. That's your responsibility to look after these kids, teach them, but also there's a pastoral aspect to it. So if you're in the role of the parent, and you have these dangerous ideologies... And you might not even have any kids. Oh, right. Then you have blue hair and a bunch of, yeah, like the libs of TikTok. I mean she's posting this stuff every day.

Yeah and you have 18 different pronouns that you like to use. Yeah and you're one of these awful teachers where you're like, I want the kids to be my friend. You're like, why do you want to be friends with a nine-year-old? Did you ever see any footage from the stuff we did at the protest? We went along to, I went along to a few protests and talked to people. Have you seen any of this? No, no I haven't. We have like a five minute clip. Which protests?

Both. So in London, I went along to a march against anti-Semitism and I went along to pro-Palestine protests, two of them, and an Extinction Rebellion protest. That was fucking incredible. What is Extinction Rebellion? Extinction Rebellion is a group that's fairly small in this country, but very big in the UK, and they basically want us to stop using oil and gas

and producing energy through fossil fuels. So the folks that glue themselves to the wall. That's the ones. Yeah, those are the guys. Yeah, but interesting, we have, Jamie, we have a couple of minutes clip, if you're interested, Joe, from me. And I was very journalistic about it. I didn't go in to try and misrepresent anybody. I just talked to people. Okay.

That's all I did. And I'd ask them, you know, you've got this placard with this, Free Palestine or From the River to the Sea. What does that mean? Right. And we didn't edit it. We didn't massage it, we showed you over the course of the 30 minute video, we showed you every single person we spoke to pretty much. And it's just fascinating, you talk about like these kids don't know anything, you have no idea how much they don't know anything.

And they're well-intentioned people, they're not bad people. They're there because they've seen kids being blown up on their timeline. And that's understandable, you'd be freaked out by that. And you know, that's understandable. You'd be freaked out by that. And if you're a human being, you'd be freaked out by that. Yeah. But Jamie, if you're able to play a minute or two, I think you'd find it interesting, Joe.

Okay. Where's it at? It's on YouTube, but it'll be one of our most recent YouTube clips. Oh yeah, here we go. So I just noticed the signs that you've got from the river to the sea Palestine will be free what does that mean? Well it's quite self-explanatory. It's a little bit more complicated than that isn't it? Because I guess what I mean is how would that come about, what would happen to the Israelis

etc. I don't, I don't. I'm trying to think of how to word it. Isn't it just as self-explanatory as the area of land? It's Palestine's land. So when you say Palestine, which puppet do you mean? Yeah, the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip?

The West Bank. West Bank? Yeah. That's it? I don't know. Is there another one? I thought it was self-explanatory. I'm getting confused. I thought it was self-explanatory. What about either of you?

Bullshit question. It's a bullshit question? Why? Well tell me, why is it bullshit question? I'm not fucking getting involved in this, but it's so... Like, inflammatory. Is that right? No, it's, yeah, it's just really inflammatory. Asking what that time means. Yeah. It's inflammatory. What, why is that? It's inflammatory, yeah. I that right? No, it's just really inflammatory. Asking what that sign means.

Is it inflammatory? Why is that? I'm not getting involved. Okay. Alright. I was just asking what it meant. Do you agree with the sign? Yeah, I agree.

What does it mean to you? The Palestinians to be free, you know? It says Palestine, so I was asking them which bit of the area. The people that are being oppressed, for them to be free. Gaza, West Bank, them people to be free. Gaza and West Bank? Yeah, all Palestinians in general. Because we know that what's going on, all of them are being oppressed, so for them to be free.

It's clear as day. I was just asking them which bit of the land they mean, because some people mean all of the land including the bit where Israel is now and that's why there's some debate about you know what I think the main message is Palestinians that are being oppressed for them to be free you know and for everyone to live in harmony regardless of your religion or whatever it is because historically speaking the we say Muslims Jews Christians have been living there for centuries you know living in good peace but when early in recent times all of this issue has been started going on you know but I think it's how long how

long would you say this issue has been going on as far as I know obviously I'm not as educated on this topic for example with other people but for roughly around 75 years since I think the mandate from 45 just before after World War I think is when the issues you know when people when the British came and started cutting up lands and taking the the lands of the Palestinians I think that's when the issue started you know. Well yeah before that you had the Ottoman Empire there which had very strong control over the area yeah that makes sense. Any attack on civilians is not justified you know regardless of whatever happened.

But I think the issue really, what is the origin of this problem? History has not started October 7th. We have to see the real origin of this was, as I said, 75 years ago. Obviously, I'm not as educated on this topic. But for, because what I see now is this whole issue is being portrayed as if civilization and history started from October 7th and onwards. But no, that's not the real, that's only the aspect. The whole issue is obviously as we said from you know 70, 80 years ago and I think that contributes to what is going on today from both sides,

you know, from the Palestinian side as well as the Israeli side. All right, so we are now... Jamie, skip forward a few seconds, just a few seconds, we don't need me talking, there's one more bit. Here we go. This alternative to Sunak and Salma for a socialist inter-father, what's a socialist inter-father? If I'm being honest with you, I just got this at the stand over there.

Oh, okay. I don't actually know the definition of the word interfada. Okay. But, I mean... Do any of you know the definition of the word interfada? Stop bombing Gaza, that makes sense. What about that one? Stop the river to the sea. Yeah. And what does that mean?

What does that mean? Err... Well, it means to... It's to stop the Israeli occupation of Palestine. From which river to which sea? The Jordan River. The West Bank of the Jordan River. From the Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, yeah. So does that mean that all of Israel should be, what is now Israel, should be Palestine,

in your opinion? No, I personally don't think that. I think there's, I mean, I'm definitely not the person to talk to about this, but I know that there's multiple strategies that people have come up with, like a two-state solution or one-state solution. I think ideally I would like to see one multi-faith state that is neither Israel nor Palestine. There we go. Strong opinions to be out there marching. At least they've done a lot of research. Can you imagine marching with a sign that you don't know what it means?

Well, also they're being handed those signs, which is wild too. So that's organized, right? And then they also know that people are very gullible and people like to be out in protests. And like I said, they're not bad people. No. Look at those kids. They're decent people. They're at this. They're decent people informed They're not informed at all. And yet they're protesting which is interesting

So most of the people I spoke to were somewhere along that so Pre-decent people and not hateful most of them. There is a minority, but most of them. They're not hateful They're not bad people, but what they are is very ill-informed mmm, and the other thing is I'm starting to kind of see the distinction, there are some people who have an activist mindset, and there are some people who have a pragmatist mindset. And that's the activist mindset, which is if we complain enough, if we make enough noise, if we draw enough attention,

then someone else will fix things. The pragmatist mindset is like, how do we move forward from here? And that's the question I was putting to them, is like, how do we move forward from here? And that's the question I was putting to them is like, you say we need from the river to the sea. That means there shouldn't be any Israel, right? Because that's what that means. From the River Jordan to the Mediterranean, that means there would be no Israel. And then when you say to them, well, is that what you're asking for? No, I want everyone to live in peace and harmony. Well, have you been to the fucking Middle East?

Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Good luck with that, right? So these things are very, very complicated, very complicated, and that's why they haven't been resolved for 75 years. So the way to try and resolve them is to think about

how do we move forward? We can get stuck in 75 years of history, that's not gonna take you anywhere. You think bickering about what happened in 1945 is gonna solve anything? Is that what you think? 1960, that's gonna solve something? No, man.

The way forward is to find a way for both sides to live, A, ideally separately from each other, and B, for economic growth and development to be happening there, and for security to be available to the Palestinians and to the Israelis right and I'm not saying that from any deep place of expertise it's just like the obvious thing right people don't fight when they're happy and comfortable and safe right how you get there is very very complicated discussion but but it's not protesting with a sign you don't understand well Well that's just indicative of just human nature right? Right. People want to be on

the virtuous side, they want to be on the side, the right side of the protest and obviously you say something like free Palestine, who's gonna argue with that? Of course, everyone should be free. Free Palestine, yeah definitely. And so you're out there with a sign, I'm doing the right thing and it's that simple and it's hard to really pay attention, it's hard to really formulate it, especially that one. That's a complicated one. Super complicated. And also as well, it's not just the complicatedness of it, it's the fact that the Middle East

is so emotionally charged. It's so emotionally charged. It's diplomatically put, my friend. To the point that it makes it impossible to kind of have a rational discussion about it without people going, oh, you're being like this, you're being like this, everybody's invested in it. And you go, you know, there's a very famous story during Northern Ireland when they had the peace talks in Northern Ireland, where I think it was Clinton came in and sat down

with both sides. And these were people who'd been at war literal war I mean Northern Ireland was in a state of civil war I call it the Troubles but that's essentially yeah but it's essentially what it was and Clinton went you know what before we get started before you say anything can we agree it's Wednesday? They're like, yeah. And they were like, can we agree it's 11.30? Yeah. And can we agree that I'm drinking a cup of black coffee? They were like, yeah, okay, okay. So we start from a point of agreement with that. Now let's see if we can navigate the rest and try and find a place where we can find some

common ground. And I think the challenges that we're facing right now, we can't even agree what words mean. And if we can't even agree with what words mean, how are we going to agree on something as difficult to solve as the Middle East and find a solution that not everybody is happy with, that everybody's prepared to accept. Because the reality is when you strike any deal, there needs to be a large dollop of pragmatism involved where you have to accept, I'm not going to get everything I want want and I've got to accept what I am happy with, what I can accept at that moment. And if you're not prepared to do that and if you

can't even agree on what words mean and if you're in this kind of oppressor-oppressed mindset, how are you going to come to any kind of agreement or solution? The way we have the conversation about it is not intended to find a solution. People aren't looking for a solution. People are looking to say, you know, what's happening is horrible and it is horrible. I mean, like this is the thing with social media is, you know, you spend two minutes on your phone looking at what's going on and you're like, fuck, you know, someone's got to do something.

Yeah, the ocean's boiling. But doing stuff is hard, talking about shit is easy, right? Yeah, gluing yourself to the wall of the museum is easy. That's right, that's right. And so, yeah, and with this conflict, it's the same. I mean, I listened to Jared Kushner on Lexus podcast, and I thought he was very good about talking about a positive way forward. It's probably why he was able to pull off the Abraham Accords, which was a big step

in that region. Very, very smart guy. Very smart guy. He's very nice too. I met him. Very friendly. You see him on the media depictions of him during the Trump administration. It's like, oh, it's Damian from the Omen.

That's what it is. He's evil. I haven't seen it. You ever seen that? They compare him to Damian. administration was like, oh, it's Damien from the Omen. That's what it is. It's evil. Look at him. You ever seen that? They compare him to Damien. Like there's a photo of him right next to Damien from the Omen.

Do you know the movie? No, no, no, I haven't seen it. It's the devil's baby. Oh, right. Yeah, the lady gets pregnant by the devil. Right. And Damien's the devil's baby. Damien's a very bad boy.

And Damien looks exactly like you. Really? Yeah, I feel like it's Damien. Can you find that, Jamie? I was very impressed with what he had to say. He's a brilliant guy. Yeah. And you can see why he was, and his whole thing is like, what's the positive vision for the future?

How do we get everybody what they need to stop being angry and fighting and killing each other? But you can have as many fucking protest marches as you want, it's not going to change anything. And we saw that with Iraq, I protested against the war in Iraq, I was on the street. But it does add to the confusion that young people are experiencing. Come on, Simon. I mean, come on. It's so similar. There's photos of him, there's like a side by side of him and Damien there it is

there it is that the window there well there's one down there that one the one to the left that right there look at that I mean if you didn't know him you could eat you get that's why it's so insidious what the media is capable of doing oh man so creepy that they do that and that they think that almost it's their obligation to do that. Right. Well this is what I was saying about disagreeing with people. Like I've heard from every single person that knows Tucker

that he's a great guy. I still disagree with him on some things, but it doesn't mean he's not a great guy. You're allowed to do that. Right. But the media conversation is always about this person has the wrong opinion, therefore he's bad or she's bad. Yeah.

And that's dumb. Someone can be really wrong and still be a really good person who's trying their best. And they may learn from their mistakes over time if they're doing things wrong. Agreed. Agreed. You know? Yeah, man. So it's a crazy world, but we're here.

Yeah. And we're having a conversation. Yeah. Yeah, we're having fun. I mean, we're very fortunate. We're very fortunate that this has come along during this time. But it's also part of the cause of this time. But the fact that there is this new found avenue

to be able to express things and just really just talk about whatever the fuck you want and not be confined by some organization that's telling you what to talk about and what you can't talk about and then censoring you if you disagree Firing you that's that's that is and that's what we need We need more conversation and we need to start seeing people not as avatars who need to be destroyed But actually as somebody else over the other side Who has their own way of looking at things

has arrived at this point. Now you may think it's wrong, you may think it's stupid, you may think all of these things, but it's still a human being. They've still got this point and sit them down and go, why? Why is it? Because maybe, here's the thing, maybe by reaching your hand out, you might be able not only to understand them a little bit better, you might actually be able to understand yourself a little bit better.

And by seeing the blind spots in them, you go, what about my blind spots? What about the thing where I have, I don't actually, I have an unconscious bias. I actually have a bias, because of the way I was raised, because of the way I was brought up, because of what I'd seen growing up. And maybe, actually, even though they might be wrong about this thing, I kind of get why they're saying this. And not only that, they might have a point about something else that I haven't thought about.

And this is why the ethos of self-improvement is so important. 100%. And why it also gets attached to right-wing ideology. Because you're taking responsibility, right? And for some reason, some people want to make the right the only place that's about personal responsibility. I don't think that's necessary.

That's ridiculous. That's crazy. You can exercise and be left-wing, right-wing. Of course. You can take care of your family and be left-wing, right-wing. Of course. You can take care of your family and be left-wing, right-wing. Of course. And people have always done that. And I think that the people that aren't interested in that, both on left-wing and the right-wing,

have the most problematic views. The people that have no interest in self-improvement, both on the right and on the left, they're the people that are the biggest problems. Yeah. Yeah. It's the people, the worst people are the people who are utterly entrenched in their views. And they think to themselves, you know what, I've got everything right, I don't need to change, why do I need to improve, why do I need to, why do I need to change the way I think, because I am right. Well great, so what you've actually done is, you've actually stunted your own growth. Emotionally, physically, spiritually.

Well the good thing is, I think that becomes evident over time. I think those people become exposed and it becomes very clear what they're doing over time. And I think we're going through that right now. Yeah. It's a tumultuous period. I think the economics of podcasting and new media is going to make more daily wire style

organizations. I think it's inevitable. People are going to come together under one umbrella or in partnership or somehow. Because it's like no one wants to give, no one wants to subscribe to their favorite 50 sub stacks. No one wants to listen to their favorite, give $ dollars a month to their favorite 30 podcasts, right? It's just not gonna happen. You're gonna want to come to one place where you've got, you know, Barry's doing it with the free press For example, she's bringing people together under her umbrella

That's a very good point because if you have like ten podcasts you like and it's ten bucks a month Okay, now it's getting a little pricey and the admin alone is gonna kill you Yeah, it's getting pricey and then it's also it's like're going to lose out on a lot of people that are interested in your stuff if you have to pay for it. But if you can get a bunch of really good ones all together, then you got an organization. And before you know it, new media will become old media. It will have the same corruption. It will have the same power structures. Hierarchy and power is prone to corruption, as we know from our good friend. That's why I believe in organic networks. Yeah. So what I try to do with my friends, with comedians, I instill this notion

that we are on a network. It's an organic network. We know contracts with each other, but we're all friends and we all support each other, so we help each other. So our reach is all grown together, it's all tied in together. You know, if you listen to your mom's house, you probably listen to Joey Diaz, you probably listen to me, there's like a whole group of us. And you might like Duncan Moore, or you might like Ari Moore, whatever it is.

But there's a whole group of people that are connected that are essentially on the equivalent of the podcast version of NBC. You know, that transition was so good for us, but also so hard because coming from the UK comedy circuit where which is where we started It's the exact opposite of that. What was in America to every man for himself It was like in a bucket and then when we started coming over here It was like a whole new world was open to us and now we are bringing that back to the UK

We are helping people out. We are like, oh, here's a talented new writer. Let's give her an opportunity He is a talented new guy doing YouTube, let's bring him in and give him a boost. And we are kind of using that to try and create a community of people who are working together, not necessarily towards the same goal, but just like people who are looking out for each other. Yes.

And that's such a powerful transformation of the way you view the world, because suddenly everyone's your friend. Yeah, and that's one of the best-bent things that came out of the whole internet revolution for comics is that we realized that we are not in competition but that we can benefit from all the things that benefit you from being in competition with someone. You can be inspired, you can be forced to work harder and really raise your levels. But more importantly, we're in collaboration and that we're a tribe and that we all benefit from each other being around and it's beautiful when your friends do well.

And that philosophy was possible because the internet, because before that we were all competing for the same amount of jobs on television and late night talk shows, whatever it was. And once that went away, then comedians became an asset. Because if I could get Tom Segura on my podcast, we're going to have a lot of fun. And then his podcast will grow and my podcast will grow and everybody will be happy. And that helped us a lot. But it's also this mentality that we had at the Comedy Store that was different. It's like we were a tribe and we were supportive of each other, even before the podcast thing.

Where did that come from? Was it you that kind of led that or was it someone else? Because it always comes from like someone being the inspiration, doesn't it? It was probably me, because it came from martial arts. Because that's how I think about martial. You have to have training partners. You don't get good by yourself.

You have to have training partners. Like the only way you get good at Jiu Jitsu, you have to roll with other people that are really good. You have to do it. You have to train together. You have to realize high levels, the high levels around you. And if you have a gym that has a specifically, especially rather high level of jujitsu, you're going to get a lot of high level people that come out of that gym. And you'll see the difference when they go to a lower level gym. They're just way better. Just like you see a comic that works at The Cellar in New York, they go somewhere else. That's a high level gym. They're just way better. Just like you see a comic that works, you know, at the cellar in New York, they go somewhere else. Like that's a high level

comic. They're in a high pressure, high talent situation and it benefits everybody. So my feelings from martial arts, I just transferred over to comedy. I was like this is the best way to do it. I know it seems counterproductive. You think like we're all fuck him, I'm the man. Get rid of that. Get rid of that. Everybody can be good together. And when someone's good, it actually

feels good to tell people that person's good and blow them up and help them. If you can help get some shine on, get some light on someone who's really talented, it's good for the art form, which is the whole reason why we got into it in the first place. And the more people that do it, the higher the level's going to get. You're're gonna get more people that rise to the top

It's more competition more creativity more influence more excitement more inspiration It's good for everybody and it's good for you as well Yeah, because because it's when you have that mindset of no, this is my thing You're not gonna touch my thing. You know, it's a gross mindset It's a gross mindset and what gross mindsets do is they corrupt the individual and this is what people don't talk about enough If you have got a terrible mindset, okay It's bad for everybody around you and of course that's important, but the person it's worse for it's you It's cancerous. So if you have this mindset of, I'm not gonna help Penny Bone because what about me?

You know what? You're gonna end up on your own and you're gonna end up being deeply, deeply miserable. Bitter and resentful. Here, here. Yeah. You know, I asked Jordan about this because his whole crew is like,

everyone works together. It's a team game. We're all pulling in the same direction. And I said to him, how did you like, and he goes, I realized very early on, the right amount of drama to have on a tour is zero. Mm-hmm. Zero drama.

Yeah. If you're a drama guy, you don't... You're not gonna work here. Yeah. Well, you know, and it's not an angry thing, it's a practical thing. Right. We're all working towards the same thing. I'm trying to make you better, you're trying to make me better.

I mean, the guy literally invited someone over from another country to argue with him on stage in front of his own audience Mm-hmm, and it works. Yeah, and that's what high quality leadership looks like and what you're talking about what Jordan's talking about It's and coming here man and talking to people like you and others It's been just revolutionary for us in the way we think about everything. That's beautiful. That mindset is everything. Yeah, it is. And it's good for you, like you said, it's good for you too.

Yeah. It's good for everybody. It's good for me. It's important for me. When people, I benefit when people do well. It really does. It helps me. Totally. Yeah, because it challenges you. And that's what I love about the Austin comedy scene

is that when you come here, people are so much more open? You know you don't get that in a lot of other comedy scenes where people are you know that they you know people it's you know People do help each other of course they do But there's still this crabs in a bucket mentality Whereas you come here and people are just far more open they go come and do ten minutes at minutes at my club, come here, oh you're great, come and do this, come and do that. That collaborative process is how everybody wins. It's how everybody gets better, it's how we all become better at what we want to do. Because the reality is, if you're denying someone the chance for them to flower and flourish, you're denying something of yourself as well. Indeed.

Because later on, that person will be like, that guy helped me. Yeah. You know, hey, why don't you come and do this thing? You know, do you remember you did this for me? And then bam, and then you've both created something. Yeah. And it's just a positivity, which is why I love coming here. I love coming here because there's a positivity here, that there's a can-do attitude of we can go out and we can do this and we're gonna work together

and we're gonna collaborate and we're gonna change things and we're gonna improve. I come here and I just feel so much more creatively energized. All of these past like 10 days I've been in Austin, most of the time, apart from going out and meeting people, I just spend all my day writing. I spend all my day writing because I'm going, oh I've got all these gigs that I can test it out on and I feel energized and I feel creative and I know that I can do this.

And yet I know if I fail, like I did one particular gig for Hans Kimblessom, I did too much new, it didn't go well. I came out going, oh, I know that I'm not going to get limited because I didn't do well at that gig. But I came away knowing that I've got so much to improve and I know how to improve it. And then I went and did another gig and it was great. Yeah, you got to be able to take chances. It's a very important thing and people have to know what you're capable of.

And when you're starting off with new stuff, or you're trying new stuff out, some of it goes terrible. It's just part of the process, and everyone here knows that, they get it. I mean, we had the benefit of not being attached to Hollywood, too. That was one of the best things. Like, New York is not really attached to Hollywood, either,

but there's still like the Hollywood adjacent, you know? You can get gigs, and there's obviously, you know, there's talk shows that are there still Letterman was always there But with California, you're just so Infected by the the Hollywood bullshit and here that's none. It's non-existent So you you get to exist in a purely creative environment in that the comedians are just trying to be better at comedy. That's it. This thing.

Not just try to audition for a television show. Try to be better at comedy. Bro, when I went to LA for the first time, I spent three days there. And I told you, I'm not a religious person. After three days, I got on the plane and I was like, these people need God. Satan. Yeah. Fuck me.

Gentlemen, death to America. Not really. Hey, settle down. All right. Gentlemen, death to America. Not really. Not really. Settle down. Alright, I appreciate you guys very much. Trigonometry available everywhere and then you have, there's a substack.

So how does it work? The substacks are good. It's just Constantin Kissin substack. Read the shit out, right. And do you guys have, some of your episodes are available behind a subscription wall? Is that how it is? So what we do is we do usually about 20 minutes to half an hour bonus content with questions

from our audience for the guests and that goes behind a paywall. Oh, that's cool. And there's some pretty cool stuff there. That's a good way to do it. Questions from the audience. Yeah. That's smart. Oh yeah. Well, we tell people who's coming on in advance

and then they send in a bunch of questions and we're like, what's most upvoted? What's the most interesting what's the funniest and we do that and it goes on our locals is 20 30 minutes extra content for every guest beautiful it's pretty cool and the interesting thing is you look at the questions you go damn some of them are better than mine got a crowd source yeah thank you gentlemen really appreciate you it's a lot of fun thank Thanks for having us. Perfect. Alright, bye everybody.