The Joe Rogan Experience - #2177 - Chris Robinson

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Chris Robinson is the lead singer and co-founder of the rock band The Black Crowes. The bands critically acclaimed and first new album in 15 years "Happiness Bastards” is out now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Okay, especially the first season, like 1972 or three, I think. Colombo. I almost forgot about that show. They used to tell him not to smoke? Well, no, like the character, I could tell they're probably just building up. Like, you notice that he has a cigar in his hands. not to smoke? Well, no, like the character, I could tell they're probably just building up, like you notice that he has a cigar in his hands the whole series or every episode. But it's funny that in 1972 people are like, please don't smoke in here.

Mr. Columbo, Lieutenant Columbo, he's always being like reprimanded for it. Interesting. I forgot about that. And he's always really, you know, Peter Falk's character, he's always like, oh, sorry. And he know Peter Fox care. He's always like oh Sorry, and he puts it out always he's never like upset or anything Yeah, he was a hit that was an interesting character right because he was like this bumbling guy Who was actually not he was kind of setting you up the whole time? Letting you underestimate him acting

Pop pardon me. Yeah, but another thing he's always about to leave Yeah, he's like oh, yeah, he comes back and he's annoying people know it Incredible though Aesthetic and like the other day I'm watching this episode that Jonathan Demme directed Steven Spielberg. I mean like all of these Famous directors start to cut their teeth and TV and on episodic things like that But oh, there's a real tone to it and stuff that's cool and the way everyone looked. But one other funny thing about it that I've noticed in Columbo is it always starts with a murder.

And then usually a lot of times in the arc of the story, someone shows up to the crime scene. Usually whoever did it or whatever, right? But they're never upset. There's never someone that runs it, what happened here? Your uncle's been murdered. Oh, I didn't do it. It's kind of like how it starts instead of some dramatic, oh my God. How could this have happened? No one's even, they're just like, okay, well, you're bothering me now. In cop shows, you can always tell police, even SVU, they're always like, I've had enough.

Can you guys leave? And they leave. I'm like, is that how it goes? I don't know. No. It's weird how many of those shows there are where they catch the bad guy. It's like something that I guess people with anxiety need to let them feel like

if someone is a bad person and they do commit a murder, they're gonna get caught. Like are the interests in those kind of dark scenarios, you're only interested in them when there's justice at the end, is that what you're saying? Oh yeah, for sure. Because anything nebulous or whatever is like Too real maybe yeah

There's those shows and then there's medical shows remember when there was there was a time where they're like every other fucking show on TV Was about a hospital. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and the only one that I really remember is Quincy So Jack Klugman yelling at everyone all that you know, he's yelling about the sandwich. He's yelling about the blood sample. When we were kids, we were hardcore. We were in that initial phase of American kind of hardcore punk stuff. Because we had just missed out the like, 77, 78, 79. And then there was an episode about the LA scene and Quincy goes to the punk club.

Don't you see what you kids are doing to yourselves with the loud music and the anger, the pills or whatever. And there was a thing when we were kids and there was this song. I forget which band did it. But you were fake if you were a Quincy punk, you know, cause they took like the way people looked on Quincy or whatever and that instantly became. A fake punk.

Yeah, yeah, your bullshit. When you started out, like what was the inspirations for your band? Like what were you guys into? I mean, it's hard to untangle because my dad was a singer. So our dad was a singer. And he was very, well, my dad's kind of a strange guy in general. A lovely guy, but dynamic to say the least.

But he had had like a hit in the late 50s called Booma Dip Dip, like a top 40 kind of record and a couple of subsequent sort of rock and roll singles. And he was living in New York and stuff. And then when he – that kind of pales out and then he moves back to Atlanta and he immerses himself in like the folk music scene. And he was signed to a label called ABC Paramount. So by the time I come along in 66, it's kind of, he's not doing it anymore.

What was he doing? He was a schmata guy. He was in a middle, he was like Willie Lowman, you know? He was in the garment business. My grandfather, Ike Robinson, they were in children's wear. My dad was in women's wear and then ended later back in children's wear. But the one thing around the house that I remember earliest memories are him pilling out his guitar and singing folk songs.

And just, I don't know I'm dyslexic person and so my you know what I mean so there was I don't know if that has anything to do with it but there was something about always singing these songs it would like open up stuff for me almost like being being high or in a – not in a psychedelic way but in a way that it changed the space. You know what I mean? And records started doing that to me very early. And that kind of is where – so it's kind of – we think it's normal. Other kids' dads aren't playing old folk songs at the house that I know. But by the time Rich and I were kind of like angst-ridden suburban youth, for some reason my parents decided to move to the suburbs, financial reasons, general apathy, ready to begin the mound

of resentment and regret. I don't know. All the things the suburbs represent me, you know what I mean? I would say, for me, there was a television show, do you remember Night Flight on USA Network back in the early days? I remember the name, I don't even remember what it was about. Yeah, it would be like, it would come on at midnight, and it would be concerts and like films, like cool,

like probably the first time I saw Eraserhead or Rude Boy, the movie about the clash and, you know, declining Western civilization punk things and new wave things. And I always had an interest in stranger things, and things that weren't normal or Mr. Roper on Three's Company or whatever. And they had a show that came on at 2 in the morning,

and it was from Los Angeles called New Wave Theater. And that was huge, huge. Being a kid in the suburbs in Georgia where, you know, it's still pretty much like that band, all the people that's that band, Alabama, you know, they wear like trucker hats and flannels and like want to beat you up because you have a Ramones record or something. That's how it was. Wow. So this show was like a real beacon of, you know, my mom was like, oh yeah, Peter Ivers, a very interesting character, Peter Ivers.

Wealth of material they've serviced in many incarnations tonight. They're here as 45 grave 45 yeah, so this is what i'm really into don boles is the drummer in 45 grave who was in the germs Not a happy childhood amongst them No, but well, I don't know, but they definitely made amazing, beautiful, cool outsider art. And, you know, I think something that we have a hard time understanding in this day and age is art that's made because of the visceral interaction with you and other people that has nothing to do with,

I'm gonna be a big star. Right, right. And some of the things I think, I mean, fuck, I'm like the one of the last, I mean, the Black Crows, we have to be one of the last bands of the time where we kind of felt it was our duty to never truly give in to the other side, you know what I mean? And kind of understand this us versus them idea, you know what I mean? Or vibe is something that's inspiring and something that is like, you know, I was always interested in counterculture, you know, and anyone, again, that's like why the algorithm maybe isn't as perfect or it never will overtake

everything because there's always going to be the one person who's like, I'm going this way. That's not enough for me, you know, the deep dive people. And so we kind of found ourselves in the crosshairs of this kind of stuff, the cramps, we were in the cramps, the gun club. So and then REM comes around their first record, Chronic Town. And so my dad and my mom and dad had a lot of records, maybe 250 records, 300 records, which was a lot of records back then.

Bluegrass records, Lester Flatneuril Scruggs records, or Mo's Allison records, Jimmy Reid records, Johnny Guitar Watson, and then they had Buffalo Springfield records, and Bob Dylan records. I mean, that's a big, I mean, for millions of people, but something as a kid that I knew no other kids would go. You guys want to come over and listen to records? I'm going to put on the times they are changing. I'd be like, again, it would be a reason to get beat up.

But that kind of stuff catapults us into, then punk rock comes along and it's like, oh, anyone can do this. You don't have to be, we'll figure it out later, what talent or whatever, you know what I mean? We just wanna plug in and start going, ding, ding, ding, ding, and singing horrible things and trying to be offensive.

You know what I mean? Because think about, now you go to the, now people walk around in Dead Kennedy's t-shirts and it's like, oh, cool. But back then, Dead Kennedy's made people, like the name of that band, the Circle Jerks, like the names of these bands made people upset. Right.

Legitimate rebellion. Instead of posturing, which is a lot of what's going on today with Dead Kennedy's t-shirts. But I mean, I think inevitably anything like that, I mean, Edgar Allan Poe was that in a literary way in the tail end of the Victorian age, but now he's just like a thing hanging in some goth kid's car, like an air freshener or something. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So things get swallowed up culturally and regurgitated as just a sense, and it just so happens that Dead Kennedys have one of the greatest logos of all time. Yeah. There's always going to be adherence to what most people are interested in and what's popular, and then people that are trying to mimic what's popular so that they can become popular. And then there's always legitimate counterculture,

where people are just like, I don't vie with any of this. Yeah, I'm looking for something else. Yeah, I'm looking for something that's real, something that's raw. And I think that's going to accelerate with AI music and all this electronic music. And again, as you were saying before, stuff that's sort of created to feed the algorithm.

Yeah. There's strategies to become successful rather than just expression that resonates with people. Yeah, in a way, I mean, someone took a chance, you know, a band like Alan Vega and, you know, like Suicide, like someone, you know, the no-wave music in New York in the late 70s, someone took a chance and said, yeah, I was thinking about

how weird was that, you know, like bringing that into a studio where, who was just in here, fucking 38 Special or some shit, you know what I mean? And then there's like this or whatever, you know what I mean? I mean, it's a cool thing about early, you know, like the first Sex Pistols record, the Clash records a little different, but even the Dead Boys or bands like that, like a lot of those early punk records and a lot of the post-punk records, those bands, they're not making records trying to sound, you know, oh, I can make a record sound like I Don't Give a Fuck or something on my garage.

You can do anything now with like a button and people, and I like lo-fi shit too, of course. But back then, these bands, they're not like lo-fi shit too, of course. But back then, they're in, these bands, they're not making lo-fi records. They're in just, like, that's a real band in a, but with great gear and people who are making, like, records that we would think are sonically, like, oh, that's correct.

Right. And then you have, like, these punk people in there, just like, you can't turn it up all the way. Well, we're doing that, you know what I mean? Wasn't this sort of rebellion out, you guys had, had like a falling out with ZZ Top, right, when you were on tour? Wasn't part of it something about corporate involvement? Yeah, we were always And it's funny. I just saw Billy Gibbons a couple weeks ago in London and we've been friends for many years and a massive ZZ Top fan. I mean, those records, especially the early records,

I mean, they just sound delicious. You know what I mean? I just, and when, what is it? Which one is it? Is it Rio Grande? I don't know. One of those records where you open it and there's like a giant plate of Mexican food.

Like growing up in Atlanta, like that was, I didn't know what that, you know what I mean? Like you could get that. You know? We had barbecue, we had soul food, you know, we have our own regional culinary identity, but to see stuff like that, I was like, wow, I gotta try that, you know what I mean? But no, we, they, I don't even know if ZZ Top, where they were in their career, if they knew anything that was going on about like these guys that were the opening band, except for the fact that, you know, in the music business at that time, when you're still selling records, and you're selling 250,000 records every week or whatever for a couple of years, it starts

to be kooky when it was a thing. But they were sponsored by Miller Lite. And I just got into this thing where, you know, so we'd go on stage and do our thing. And there's big Miller Lite posters all over the stage or whatever, you know. And I got in my little troublemaker mind, we're the black crows, you know what I mean? No one gives us money. We don't drink this beer. No one gives us fucking money. I'm standing under this sign

because I have to be here tonight, but I want you to know that no fucking beer company sponsors our music. No one owns us. You know what I mean? I have this, these naive sort of thing about, like, I don't know. And we, my brother and I talk about it a lot.

And as we've gotten older, and especially since we put the band back together these last few years and have been in a really positive place and a really good place, I realize, like, you know, part of our, part of that that we were involved in, we believed in like, as if rock, the S, what we feel is really the true essence of rock and roll is like, I describe it as like the movie Quest for Fire, you know, when they have to keep the fire burning in that little thing and they're going across the swamp and they don't want the Neanderthals to get it or whatever. That's kind of how we felt in a weird way about everything that was out. One minute you're in control, your kids were writing songs,

we're in control of that. I'm in control of like, this is what we're doing, this is how we look, this is what we are. And then you're in the grownup world and you've sold, you've made people tens of millions of dollars. And I'm hardly a savvy business person. I never could be, I never would be, it wasn't in the cards for me. And so part of our like, being hard about it or being difficult, not being compliant was trying to, in our minds, keep this pure thing. You know what I mean? And in a way

that still is part of what we are today. How old were you guys back then? Oh, in the summer of 89, Rich was 18, I was 23 when we made our first record. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Just a young rebel. Well, you know, the other thing is, you know, you remember, Rock and Roll was,

culturally and socially, its place and its importance and its reverence was a lot different than today. Yeah. You know, I think, it's one thing I think is cool about hip hop music is the hip hop stars have taken over the, that kind of attitude. Yes. Which I, when I see their fashion and I see, you know, I mean there's lots of, hip hop's not one thing of course. And I'm 57, I like what I like, you know, I like old records anyway. But when I hear new things that I like, and I'm like, okay, so they're singing about drugs,

they're singing about sex, and you know, they're singing about, you know, maybe I can't really identify with the violence of poverty and stuff, you know, maybe I can't really identify with the violence of poverty and stuff, you know what I mean? Like the extreme nature of some of it. But that's another form of rebellion as well. Yeah, and it's, isn't it, hip hop itself is an interesting art form because there's not a push to popify it. You know, like the hardcore hip-hop artists are very successful.

The lyrics are rough. You know, they're very hard-edged lyrics, but yet these are the lyrics that, you know, get millions and millions of views. You can't even say millions of sold albums anymore because it's like, that had to be the weirdest thing to watch the sale of albums evaporate. Not just the sale. You're absolutely correct. Not just the sale, but the the meaning of a record like of, you know, and again, in the big scheme of things, the record business isn't as old as, say, you know, the writing or whatever. old as, say, you know, the writing or whatever. But in the way that we would listen to music and you would, you know, there's a company that would find talent and put that whole thing. But yeah, making a record and saying, okay, we're songwriters. This is what we're

this is our this is our latest work. This is what we've been working on. This is our craft. And this is our talent and our poetry and our this is what we've been working on. This is our craft and this is our talent and our poetry and this is what we want to say. Now it's like an album. I personally think that it's still an important medium and I've yet to give up on it. If they said write, you know what I mean? That's said, you know, oh, you know what I mean? That's what Rich and I have always done. We write songs. It was one of the only things, again, the way we could experience the world was through that, because he's, you know, as crazy as me just doesn't talk as much. Not crazy, but I mean different, you know, artists. I think it resonates with a lot of people,

which is why there's this resurgence of vinyl, right? Like people still wanna listen to actual vinyl, they still wanna see an actual album, you know? Agreed. And there's a lot of like looking at that, there's a lot of reminiscing from people that are like my age and your age that were around when these things were the way you consume music. I've been buying records as I was 12 years old, you know what I mean?

And it was weird maybe that's because my mom and dad had a lot of records. But you know, my wife and I, we just moved just around the block in LA. And we've been together seven years, but we kept our records separate. I don't know. We have thousands and thousands. I just put 4,000 records in storage because we don't have space for that. Wow. And, but I'm like, but it's funny because no matter what, I see a record store, I'm going in and I can, you know, after however many years of buying records, I know what I'm looking for.

And I don't buy records online very much. I still like to, I don't know, I like to, I'm like a kid when I, if I've been looking for something and I see it, I get a shot of endorphins. I'm like, oh. You know what I mean? I'm looking around like, I don't want anybody to hear that. It's weird.

It's geeky stuff. It's nerd stuff. But the record store was really important to me as a young person and a musician. Because before you could go on your phone or before the algorithm whatever like there's a another person that looks cool like oh you know what I mean like they have Chelsea boots on or like a cool band

t-shirt in the suburbs back in the 80s it wasn't like you know I mean if you saw someone you took the chance to be like when you'd go to their house and look through their records, you know what I mean? And it's funny that it's still that way. You know what I mean? I have so many friends in my life and we're friends because of records. You know what I mean?

And it's like, my wife and I DJ all the time in LA and we go to New York and we carry our records around. You DJ? Like, yeah. We have, my wife's name is Camille. So records around. You DJ? Yeah. My wife's name is Camille. So we have the best DJ name ever, the Captain and Camille. We do concerts and bars and parties and gigs and stuff. Really?

When did you start doing that? DJing? I started like, well, back in the 80s, everyone used to take a turn playing records at the pizza place. They had two turntables called Fellini's in Atlanta, where all the, as my dad referred to them, dirtbags and low-lives hung out. Everyone in a band, of course. But then in, I guess in the early 2000s, a friend of mine that worked at the great record store Other Music in New York, my friend Michael,

we started doing these nights and playing a lot of weird psych folk as a genre and we both love those records and we called that, we called Gurus Galore. When I wasn't doing the Black Crows, I had this band called the CRB. We were like a little psychedelic folk rock little group that toured around and made a bunch of records. But our so we played two sets a night. So it was kind of like Grateful Dead model, like very heady, trippy. So, but the CRB, especially in California, we always had friends DJ the shows,

doors open till after the show and in between sets playing records. I don't know, it's just something we've always done and my wife used to DJ before I met her and stuff, so. So it's just something you enjoy. By the way, if I could make money doing it, I would never do it. If me and Camille could just play records,

I would be the happiest person in the world. You would stop performing? No, I'm kidding. I love singing. I love performing. I love being in a band. You know what I mean? I love, it's changed a lot like anything else and travel

and everything, but I personally, it's yet to beat the adventure out of me, you know what I mean? You never know. Same thing about why I could go online and buy whatever book or record I want right now. Anything, almost anything you can imagine, you know? Is available. Is available, but, you know, I know when I'm in Denver, I'm going to this certain bookstore, and I know that they have really curated things in there that I'm looking for. I can wander into, you know,

you never know who you're gonna meet, you never know what you're gonna eat, who, you know what I mean? The laughs and the, you know, it's still a lot of stuff out there for someone like me. A lot of stimuli. Real experiences. Yeah, that are good and human.

Yeah. Human experiences. Yeah. I mean, that is what live music and live performance is all about, right? I mean, music is great. Live music is something really special. I tell you, the pandemic was weird for the world and it was, for artists and musicians, we had no government bailout for the guy

who was playing guitar or whatever. But as hard as it was, one of the worst parts of it to me was not just being able to do what we do, but not going to see bands. You know what I mean? I have a label called Silver Arrow, and we've been doing this for a few years. The Black Crows records come out on Silver Arrow.

It's a little different. I'm always going to see bands. You know what I mean? We go, whether it's the Rolling Stones or whether we go see a band at a little club in LA. And I'm always looking for new, you know, things to people that are interesting. If I could help them out in their careers. A lot of it is with really young artists.

I want to put them in the studio. I want to give them good experience. I want to give them a great record deal because it's changed the model. But to do that, you have to go out and get in it. You know what I mean? We always laugh. I'm like, is there anyone older here tonight than me?

You know, like you're looking, oh, there's what? You know what I mean? There's a freaky dude who still goes to Z-Bands. Yeah. Wow, people don't want to let it go, and why should they? Why should you let it go? I mean, in LA right now is a great time. I mean, there's a lot of good music going on in LA.

And there's a lot of bars where we know if someone has a great, it plays great records, we'll go listen to them play records. You know what I mean? There's a lot of good record people, bands. There's a lot of cool, LA is very alive right now. No kidding. Well, like what parts of LA are just happening?

I mean, it happens all over, but especially more downtown and like to the east. Downtown. I mean, yeah, you have to survive getting into the place. Downtown is so fucked up. But that's probably something that adds to the feeling of it. You know what it does?

And it's funny, because I had a nostalgic Moment about when we started talking about Look, man, I don't get me wrong. My parents did the best they could they're just fucking people too but part of the other part of adventure and the other part of being interesting and like New wave theater my mom's like they all look like mental patients, just like you. You know, like great. But was, to go to downtown Atlanta in the 80s was dangerous too, you know, during the crack epidemic. It was a violent place. And we were, you know, obviously we were white kids from the suburbs traversing like this urban place to get into these little underground clubs

to see these bands. That added to it, you know what I mean? It added, and just the aesthetic, you know what I mean? I was, I still am an obsessive, influenced by the beat writers and beat culture. And so for me, like, you know, Jack Kerouac isn't writing about the suburbs, he's writing about the, you know, Mexico City or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, Gregory Corso or Allen Ginsberg, all these poets and people are writing about all these experiences

that don't seem to be happening in like a neighborhood where they call the houses a five four and a door So a certain angst is Cultivated yeah, you know that only the only thing that could satisfy that would be something that I felt was gritty and real Well, there's a there's something about if you can I mean I haven't been to downtown LA to see music in quite a while But the last time I went there I saw Gary Clark Jr. and Honey Honey at this very small place with you know maybe there was like 200 people in there and took my daughter and it was like a late show on a Monday night like 1130 and here we're seeing Gary Gary Clark Jr. And Honey Honey play a cover of Midnight Rider. And it just felt so special because there's no one there.

And you survived. And you survived. And you get out. You're like, let's get out of here. Where's the car? Let's fuck out of here. But you know what's weird about that? And I get it.

But I spend a lot of my time reading. I read a lot of my time reading. I read a lot of varied materials. And one thing that comes up is humans are dangerous. And places where there's a shit ton of them are usually pretty gross and dangerous. You know? It's just a numbers thing, right? It's totally a numbers thing. It's other things, ills as well,

that are hard for us to deal with. And look, if we're lucky enough to be walking upright and some how mentally stable or whatever, right? But but I think cities have always been dangerous places. They certainly have. Ancient Rome was a dangerous place. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, it was so wild. We were just in Sicily and we went to Palermo for the day and it was... Have you ever been to Palermo?

Nat. Yeah. Nat. Wild. Nat. Yeah. Nat. That city is like an electric wire that's got sparks shooting out of it and you can't get a hold of it. Nat. That's where my grandfather's from. Nat. Yeah. Nat. From Palermo.

Nat. Yeah., we went to Italy one of the most interesting pilot is this water yes, yes in this coffee in this if you want yes one of the most interesting things is just Italy in general is like Every time I go there. I'm like maybe I should live like this like then they fucking know how to relax People know how to relax like with the way they sit and eat, no one sits down and eat for 40 minutes. You sit down and eat for two hours. French people have it dialed in pretty good. They do.

And they have pastis, which is the, you know. What is pastis? Pastis is a, it's a aperitif from the south of France. You ever see it says Ricard, Marseille. Marseille is famous for pastis. All Mediterranean cultures have an Anisette-based drink. Italians have Zambuca, the Greeks have Ouzo, a Ratt in Lebanese people, and there's all sorts of them. In the south of France, they drink one

that's a little more sophisticated and a lot more herbs and things in it. And they say you always know in France someone from Marseille because they always have a pastis in their hands. It's a high alcohol level, a lot of sugar, but it's delicious. You put it in ice and dilute it with water and it makes it all this kind of milky color. It's genius. Well, it's just, you only have a certain amount of time

on this planet, and they've chosen to live their time in a more relaxed manner, more community-based, and just people like to sit around and talk. Do you think that any of that has to do with embracing a certain middle-classness or even lower middle class, you know what I mean? Like the working man, you know what I mean? Even in a blue collar way, I think.

You know what I'm saying? Whereas here it seems that's been stripped away from something to be proud of unless it's kind of in a way distortedly proud, you know? Yes. Distortion of what that could be. Right. I know what you're saying. Yeah. Well, in here, it's supposed to be your, your main goal is to get to be the type of person that can look down upon that. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. You, your goal is not to exist in that and just accept it. This is life. The life is you have money for food. You have money for your house. Like you, you're not wealthy, but you're okay. Well, if you look at like media, like sitcoms from the 70s, whether it's Archie Bunker or whatever, like they're just people with jobs and even Taxi or Barney Miller or whatever, you know what I mean? And now it's like, then it turns into full house where somehow all these people and these kids live in this amazing house and everyone has clean clothes. You know what I mean?

There's no struggle. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it's not just recognition. And it's not celebratory. It's just like, look, man, this doesn't make the man, right? My material things don't make me who I am. It's who I am, how I feel, what I've learned. That's the big problem with what we're sold in Western culture, that the goal is to acquire things and to achieve a certain financial status, and then you'll have made it.

I get it. Pastis doesn't grow on trees. You know what I mean? I gotta pay for that shit. Right, but it's not that expensive. You know what I mean? It's not it's just Like when we were kids and I get it like I said, I I made the choice in my life mom and dad We weren't you know, we were middle-class people, but I made the choice When I said I'm not going to university, I'm going to be in a band. That was like the last dollar I ever saw. Not even like, hey, you know what I mean? But I made that choice. That choice wasn't made for me. And within two years, I'm on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine and we're fucking around, you know what I mean?

Like selling millions of records. I get that, you know what I mean? It's not lost on me, but it gets back to where we started talking about there will always be a part of me that is making music because it's really maybe the only place where I'm truly free. You know what I mean? I have the freedom. You know, it's funny, I tell the story, we were on Saturday Night Live two times. The second time was on our second album,

Southern Harmony, and we went on the show. It was the number one album in America. It debuted at number one. Our new single was a song called Sometimes Salvation. We were going to play that. And we were going to play one of our big hit records, and at the time it was called Remedy. And we had just written this song called Nonfiction. And I was like, let's play Nonfiction. And it's funny because it's different as my brother and I are rich was like, yeah, fuck it. You know what I mean? Like it's a cool song

The guy whoever was the music guy was like you can't do that and I was like, well, I mean we could do what we want I think He was mad as we were smoking weed in the dressing room like didn't John Belushi OD in the bathroom I'm like, what do you fucking care? Call the cops? Yeah, I told him, call the cops. We get arrested in Saturday Night Live for smoking weed, it'll be bigger than this. But the guy, now that I'm older, I realize I'm just

totally being just horrible, like kid. But he goes, you're making a big mistake not playing the single. And I said, okay, well here's the deal. You're on this show next week with some other fucking band, and then the next week after that, and then the next week after that, well this is my band.

So let me make the mistake. I'm not gonna let you tell us what to do. And if it's a mistake, then we'll fucking eat it, won't we? And I'm still here. And where is he? Well, it's funny, someone told me he has a, I forget his name. I read into him once before.

He did not like our attitude. He was on a podcast about Saturday Night Live or something and said we were the worst people he ever dealt with in his entire career there. And I was like, well, thank you. That's funny. The worst how? Because you just didn't listen to him? Yeah, yeah.

We didn't do what he wanted. That's not what you're supposed to do with artists, especially when you're young and you're still like the fire is like so intense You know, that was the problem with the executive mindsets versus artistic mindsets, right? And you some producer character who just wants everything to go according to this very specific plan They have laid out and you're trying to take an artist, and first of all, just trying to take an artist and making them sing one song is kind of crazy. Right? Yeah, I mean, there's, I mean, I think we see that now.

Yeah. You know, we see people are like, I'll do it, I'll do it. You know what I mean? So there's someone who's ready to jump up and do anything. And I think that's been a part of showbiz. But that's kind of what we were saying before. I think the talent show thing, the vote for me. You know what?

No one was voting for us. We were unvotable. And that was part of the reason that we were drawn to these characters and these people and these other outsiders and these other whatever kind of spectrum we're on or whatever that's different that would we were like you know music to us represented everything anti vote for me but did it feel weird to transcend that and become mainstream

massive yes it's still weird what is the juxtaposition me it has to be so strange you you're these rebels and Then all of a sudden you're the number one fucking band in the world and then yeah, and it's it was tough It was maybe tougher for me because I was more boots on the ground in the scene and with people and now it's like especially in the 80s in Atlanta, it was like, you know, fuck major, anyone who signs with a major label, man, fuck them, you know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, you know, power to the people or whatever, you know?

And then it's like, you're on MTV 30 times a day, and you know, in between fucking Toyota commercials and Snapple or whatever. You know what I mean? And it's weird because our politics are so in line with so many of the alternative politics of music, that would let grunge or whatever. So I'm the same age as all of the grunge bands, but I don't exist in the 90s in the same way. We weren't, you know, I'm the same age as all of the grunge bands, but I don't exist in the 90s in the same way.

We weren't, you know what I mean? Right, right. Because we were doing something. But it is funny, like, you know, people say, well, Kirk, no fucking label is signing Kurt Cobain today. But as a matter of fact, Kurt and our generation of people, we were talking about compliance and defiance You're making a mistake. Fuck it. It's my mistake to make it's my band It's my art and people met we met and my kind of generates not about being old

But now I think there's so much compliance. Okay Yeah, I don't want to cause any trouble at the record label You know, this is we're all distorted right now with social media and all the different avenues for people to get attention and to get famous. It's so easy. I shouldn't say it's easy because it's rare but common. So it's like it's more highlighted which way you can go to achieve success. But do you remember that famous time where Kurt Cobain and Nirvana were playing and they

were forcing them to lip-sync? Yeah, yeah, and so what did Kurt do? Did he start reading out of a book or something like that? Like he did a bunch of wild things. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean See if you can find that Jamie because it's kind of hilarious. Yeah, I know what nobody did that at the time And they were telling them no no you can't play live at the time and they were telling them, no, no, no, you can't play live. Yeah, here it is. Set to perform the recent single,

Smells Like Teen Spirit, the British music chart television program, Top of the Pops, time to show the policy requiring artists to sing live vocals over pre-recorded backtracks. As you would expect, Kurt Cobain and his bandmates would not let this go without having some fun.

So they started fucking around in the middle of the song. The result was, and still, one of the greatest middle fingers to live performances ever the band literally made its own shred video You got to sing the live vocal over the yeah, he started fucking around and coming up with new life great Yeah, I mean we were we loved the replacements. You know that was like a band like they're Being on Saturday Live was a disaster. But we thought, that's our band, you know what I mean? I remember every fucking person that we knew in Atlanta that Saturday night that The Replacements came on and made, and TV on Saturday Night Live,

we all were at parties and watching it and getting completely shit-faced, watching, they like shaved their eyebrows off and shit and were rolling around and changed clothes. People were like, oh dear, you know. We were like, yeah, sharing it on. That's how you, that's it. Isn't that part of one of the goals is to be that big of a pain in the ass to the, and who are you being a pain in the ass to?

But some authority. Something that says you can't do that or this is the way it goes and that changes, you know. But I think as a youth, that's definitely something I'm not feeling with a lot of bands. I mean, I think it's there in like the punk scene and stuff like that, but they're not getting access to them. Green Day is still that way, I feel. The carrot is still dangled right in front of everybody's face. It's so close now. Especially with people that make it independently

through YouTube and TikTok and all these different venues. There's just so many different ways that someone could become massively successful now. See, this is where I become the time traveler. I am from the last century. I get it. I think a guy smashing his nuts on a rail on a skateboard is as funny as anyone, but I've seen it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not like Steve Coogan or something. You know what I mean? It's not like Steve Coogan or something, you know what I mean? Like the craft and like subtext and like all this other weird cerebral stuff with comedy or whatever. I just don't, I will never, it's just me as well. The things that, the cinema that I enjoy, the books I read, the records that I listen to, there is all of them. If there's one thing in common, there's a level of craft. This is a difference between having,

it's a difference between having a fine meal at a very nice restaurant versus eating garbage. Yeah. Eating tasty garbage. And TikTok is tasty garbage. You're right, that's absolute. I've never thought about it like that. It's bad for you, and you can't put it down,

and you keep going to it, and you over-consume it. And at least when you do, when it's just visual, you don't get a big stain on your shirt. But you get a stain, I think you get a stain on your brain. On your soul. Yeah, I really do. I do. I think so much of what's going on today,

like even if I just waste 10 minutes scrolling through tick tock when it's over, I just feel like confused. Like what am I doing? Like why am I fucking paying attention? I don't have any I never had my I never did any of that. You know, Facebook, Twitter, nothing? No, I mean, the band has one, I guess, but that's perfect. But I don't personally good. I never tweeted or any of those things. Good for you. And it's funny, my phone, I'm still this way. My best friends, the three or four people in the world that I'm super, super the closest

people, we talk on the phone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love talking on the phone. For hours. You know what I mean? About whatever. I love talking for hours. Yeah, I mean about whatever so it's I I Get it, but I don't

I'm one of those older people. I just well you developed in a different time and this time is fucking bizarre. I Can't imagine spending your life grown ass people Spending all of their time playing video games. That's a real thing. Well, at least that's exciting. It is? Yeah, video games, some video games are fucking incredible. Why does it give you a shock or something?

No, some video games are so immersive, man. You have 3D sound and incredible graphics. Really? Running through corridors and people are chasing you. It's very exciting. It hits all of your dopamine receptors and just like it fires you up. I mean, video games are pretty fucking amazing now. But it's just that the world that we're living in today is not designed for human beings.

It's designed to capture human beings, capture your attention. It's not a... If you're spending your time going from a coffee shop to a restaurant to a bookstore to a record store to a bookstore, to a record store, to a live concert. Museum, to an art gallery. These are human experiences, these are human experiences. But if you're spending your time arguing with people on Twitter all day, like nothing is more depressing to me

than seeing old rock stars argue about politics on Twitter. It is so goddamn depressing watching rock stars virtue signal and attacking people personally for having different political beliefs. And then looking at their timeline and realizing these poor fucks are addicted to this shit and they're doing this five, six hours every day. Get off my lawn! Yeah, it's get off my lawn.

You get off my lawn! But it's fucking rock stars. It's like good lord man, do you have friends? Get out. You get off my lawn. I mean, I mean. But it's, you know, it's fucking rock stars. It's like, good Lord, man. Do you have friends? Like get out. Get out of the house. Stop doing this. We just, you know, it's funny.

We were gone for three months. We did the States on this latest tour. We played a lot of new songs from our latest record. It was amazing. And then we finished in Europe. And my wife and I stayed in Sicily and went back to London at the end. And I've been doing it for 35 years of that. 1990, first time I go to Europe.

And it's still like, I don't care. 35 years, it's a lot of shows. I don't care if I wake up and I'm tired. And we have friends all over the place, which is a beautiful thing. Friends in Amsterdam, friends in Paris, friends in London, friends in Madrid, friends in this, you know, Germany, whatever. But we're constantly out doing, you know what I mean? There's no way we're not heading the town in any town and finding what it has that makes maybe it unique or special, whether that's tastes or touch or whatever.

I mean, it sounds silly, but like I said before, there's still adventure in the world. And I'm not talking about jumping out of an airplane adventure or, you know, that just stimuli. I think it's cognitive nutrition. I think it's actually good for you to experience different cultures and see how people hang out and see their restaurants and see, you know, where... And you see everyone's doing the same shit. Yeah.

You know, they're just styling it a little different. Mm-hmm. Doing it a different way. But it flavors your understanding of human beings. That's why my very, very special place, the thing that I love almost more than any other thing is Jamaica really I've been I was lucky enough to have a dear friend introduced me to Jamaica 30 years ago, and I have friends there and I

Have a whole life there that has nothing to do with anything other than I have a whole life there that has nothing to do with anything other than Jamaica shit. And I go to the country and we have like a country kind of life there, you know, by the ocean and no resorts, you know. The food there is fucking incredible. Amazing. Amazing food in Jamaica. Jamaican food is so delicious. And you have to get out there and eat it and they have like anything else, you know, the fruits there, the vegetables there, the seafood and, and you know, they say in Jamaica

that the goat, a goat in Jamaica only has one bad day, man. It's not even a whole bad day. One bad moment. And that's a wrap. One bad moment and the rest we're all happy with. Yeah, and then the rest everyone's eating it. Yeah, that's one of the things I loved about Anthony Bourdain's show, that he would go and really immerse himself in these cultures and eat their food and hang out with their chefs and hang out with the people and get toured. Someone would take him on a tour around the town. You know what happened too?

Sometimes he would be tired and hungover. Oh, yeah, and yeah But yeah, but again, you know, I don't people I mean I get it man. Everyone has a tough thing, but it's like Oh, dear. I don't know. You know, I better get this I'm like, okay, if you enjoy what you're doing being tires not that bad. No, if you enjoy what you're doing, it's okay So what and get up have a coffee, let's go. And I bullshit you not. If for some reason I had to like get a quick 20, 25 in, I could curl up right there and do it. And you wouldn't even know I was here. I believe you.

Like expert. That's 35 years of being on the road. Knowing how to power nap. I got to get, I got to go down or, I'm gonna like be in it like in an intersection Like you know waving a gun around with my pants down by my ankles I've learned how to sleep instantly on planes. I get on a plane and almost always I'm out cold me, too I know every single person I'm traveling with. Yeah Sleep that quick Making dog in my life. We brought it when my wife and I were married in Jamaica and We have a little street dog that we brought back. Oh, that's cool BAMI long face. Yeah

It's like BAMI she's 35 pounds, but I can even sleep with my Jamaican street dog on my lap. That's cool So Jamaica's your spot, huh fan and they just got hit very hard with this hurricane. So it's, my friends are okay and stuff. Everyone's really shooken up over it in Jamaica. Oh, it's scary shit, man. And it's been a bad, they haven't had something like that since 2007. And this was worse. I saw live footage of it, some live cell phone footage of it.

It's just, unless you've experienced that live when you were around the sky, and the sky becomes an angry monster, and everywhere around you is dangerous, and the winds are 120 miles an hour, and it's so humbling. I've never, I mean, I was in a tornado in Atlanta in the early 70s, and that was, I mean, I was probably too young to be traumatized,

but I remember feeling my feeling my parents Trauma about this thing going over our house or whatever. It's fucking terrifying shit, man When it was over though when you're a kid, it was like amazing like the whole world was one big pine sap jungle Jim, I mean for weeks we were just because you're just climbing and all the fallen trees. And my dad had some old Pontiac, and that thing was like a U in the car. Some giant pine trees smashed that thing. Wow. So it was like a surrealist thing, too, as a kid. You know, like, wow, everything's been shaken up.

Yeah, so it's also a lesson in the temporary nature of things. You can look out and think, this is my lawn. This is where the car is parked. This is how things are. And then all of a like not today bitch. Yeah, let's throw a tree through your fucking house What was that commercial in the 70s if Mother Earth gets angry or whatever? Remember that it was like shampoo or something and then the but it was like oh there was their catchphrase and They would be like oh Yeah, I remember that

And it would be like, you know, oh yeah, I remember that. I know that was like a, I think it might be shampoo or something. Something stupid like that. But it's true, you know what I mean? You have to do it. I mean, shit, fuck. Katrina is still something like, you know, I love New Orleans. New Orleans is one of the most special cities in the world. And it's still amazing.

It's still vibrant, dynamic, alive. But I think the scars of that place are still there. I mean, that was... Devastating. Brutal. Yeah, unbelievably brutal. I mean, when hurricanes hit places and devastate them, it takes decades for them to recover, especially without aid. And then sometimes it's like the people that are there, they just don't want to do it then sometimes it's like the people that are there, they just don't want to do it anymore.

It's like when you realize you're in a place that this happens and there's other places where this doesn't happen, you just get the fuck out. You know? But there's a humbling of being attached to nature in that way that I think. Like, I grew up in Boston, and there's something to the people that live up there that understand that every winter it's going to get so cold you could die outside

Right, that's a that's a reality that no one in LA experiences because in LA it's like Earthquakes fire floods zombie apocalypse. I get a little bit of that but you can kind of get away from that It's not gonna overcome Very high fence and have the state of the art security system. The fires are wild. I was evacuated three times living in LA. We were in the valley. Yeah, yeah.

Three separate times. The last time the two houses across the street from my house burnt to the ground. It was wild. It's just wild going through your old neighborhood and seeing just house after house. There's 40 houses in our neighborhood that were burnt to the ground. We were in Marin County, Northern California, and out in a place called Laganitas. And what was this?

It was four or five summers ago. And we just kept shitting the car. Guitars. There's one guitar I just can't live without. Some pictures. We just kept both our cars filled, because you're out just ashes falling in the yard Scary well, it's when it goes bad. It goes real bad. I was filming fear factor once in

it was about a hour and a half away from LA and The fires get so bad. We had to stop and drive home and on the way home we're off the five freeway and on the way home the entire right side of the highway for an hour was in flames like completely in flames like a Lord of the Rings movie like you're waiting for demons to ride horses over the top of the mountains it was but it's there's something about those those kind of scenes that's like it puts you back and check That's like hey, man, like maybe the things you're concentrating on aren't all that important for real

I think it also touches us and in a In our animalistic DNA of like still being that person, you know these people again It's quest for fire, these people, again, it's a quest for fire, being these people who are really not just completely immersed in their environment as well for survival and sustenance and everything. That it's still like in the way, I guess, you know, there's an instinctive thing in those moments that has to be the exact same chemical reaction in every human being in any expanse of time that we've been like this. Yeah. Yeah. When we were in Sicily, we were at one... I guess there was an eruption there

recently. There's one today or last night, Mount Edna. That's right. I was seeing it on the news, but when we were there there's we were At near this one island that had a constant eruption at nighttime You could see the red at the top of the mountain just a little bit of red like Bubbling up off the top of the mountain. It's so fucking cool. I've never really got close to something like that Like I've you know, have you ever done a tour in Hawaii? We fly over in a helicopter No, Hawaii is wild The big island is wild because it's growing every year because the lava is constantly flowing into the ocean You can literally watch the island expand in real time. That's why and you fly over in helicopters

So you're flying over you're looking down at the lava pouring out of the earth. Is this Italy? Mount Etna. Look at that. Isn't that wild, man? Not to be confused with regular Italy. Yes, Sicilians think of themselves very differently. Look how beautiful that is, man. God, that's so fucking cool. We visited Pompeii too. I did that as a kid and it's still one of the coolest. But I was like, you know, it's funny when I look back, you know, they have like up the streets, they'll have like the fountain at the end of the street or whatever, the water would come and you could see like where people lean their hand.

There's like an indention for the centuries of people leaning in to get a sip of water. I just put my hand on that as a kid. Just like I could, I almost couldn't stop like thinking about that. I do that all the time. I do, you know, I do that with my kids and I'm like fucking around. I'm like, shake the hand. I shook Chuck Berry's hand. Bo Diddley's hand.

Yeah. Little I shook Little Richard's hand. John Lee Hooker, you know, they're all like laughing. Did you meet John Lee Hooker? I did one time, yeah. Wow, that's a guy I'd love to meet. It was, his handshake was like amazing. It was just like a, he touched my hand, it was just like a cloud.

It was the softest like pillow. I was like, wow. And it was early, you know, early days we headlined the Memphis Blues Festival and he went on before us and I was like, I just don't think that's right. I know we're selling a lot of records, but that's it's crazy. John Lee Hooker, man. Yeah, never get out of these blues alive. Yeah, boom boom boom. Yeah, he was as cool as he gets That's amazing, man. Hey, you ever met anybody that just like gave you like can't even believe I'm talking this person Yes, but one time it was dr. J

Party in Vegas, this is back in the mid-90s, some VH1 thing or something. And I was standing outside. Was at the Hard Rock. And this is the guy's name, Steve Nguyen, who owns the thing, the Hard Rock, or Nguyen. Yeah. Or something. He owns a bunch of that stuff out there. Yeah.

And this was, you know, 30 years ago. And I was there. And he was like, oh, hey, Chris, you ever met Julius Erving? And I was, I mean, I was like, I loved Dr. J so much growing up, you know? He and George Gerber were my heroes. I played basketball. And I was like, and he was just so cool, you know?

And he was like, hey, man, nice to meet you. And I was just, I was like a little kid. I just couldn't believe that I met Dr. J. I shook Dr. J's hand. I got to throw him in there too. Wow. And the other one would be Robert Altman, the director. Oh, really?

I met Robert at a party. I was at a party, like a Donatella Versace party in London, and there were a bunch of famous people there. Everyone sat down at a table and, you know, different things. And he was a – I was just like – and he was with Richard E. Grant. They were making Gosford Park. Richard E. Grant also I was impressed to see and meet because of the film With Nell and I is one of my favorite movies of all time and there's With Nell, you know, like there

he is. I mean, it's Richard but there's Bob Altman who is, you know, lord of my imagination and you know, one of the best films, my my favorite film some of my favorite films of all time And so after when the dinner kind of like is less whatever people are up talking to other people I just go over to him. I'm like fuck it I'm just gonna you know, I would be a little bit timid or shy in that situation And I would never think anyone I still to this day never imagine anyone knows who I am or what I do or whatever. It's a good way to go through life actually.

Yeah, it is good to go through life. You know what I mean? I'm being totally honest. Yeah. And then you find out most people don't know who you are, give a fuck what you do. But I go over and I introduce myself and I instantly recognize that he smells like weed, like he's, you know, got a roach in his pocket or something. And I'm like, Bob, are you holding?

He goes, yeah, you want to get stoned? I was like, yeah. So he pulls out a joint and like we're sitting there and we're just talking about weed. And, you know, he's like, it's hard to get, I get this from California, you know, and I was like, wow, man, I, you know, and we smoked a joint and talked a little bit about music and jazz and London. And that was kind of it. And he was like, oh, you should come by the office.

And I never took him up on it, like the production office, just because I just, I felt out of my depth. You know what I mean? I should have, but that, that was like one of those things I will always remember It's interesting when you meet the people that were heroes to you and they're just they're human beings They're just normal. Yeah, and then you realize like especially in your case Like you've become that to other people and then some kid will come up to you Chris Robinson. Yeah, and you're like, yeah, fucking normal person,

just a person, but to them, you're the black crows. You're not a normal person. You're a fucking god. You know, it's weird. You're an inaccessible plateau of society that very few people ever experience. I think music is a part of that as well, like you said.

There will always be, I don't know, I think that there's a connection in creation art, where does the idea come from? I mean, I think there's people who can manipulate that and make like, I'm going to make a pop song and it's going gonna sound like this. And not saying that it's not special, not good, but then I think there's other things that there's, I'm not using it in a Christian way or whatever, but there's a divine spark of something that happens or whatever drops in your lap imagination wise.

The muse, you know, the muse is real. The muse is real, I think it is real too. And the one thing that I do believe about the muse, and I consider the muse a female presence, a female... Most do. ...dynamic, you know. And I feel that the muse, at least the muse that I feel, is a very jealous thing. And I don't mean it in like any possessive way or anything weird, but just like the second

your devotion is turned somewhere else, the muse could leave you. That might be as superstitious as throwing salt over your shoulder or whatever, but I honestly believe that. And it makes it difficult in life because life isn't just the muse. Life isn't just the dream world that I live in and my imagination. And the ideas have to come from somewhere. It's not just singing and dancing and you have to have ideas. What is this? For me, I've always had to be involved with every aspect, the album covers, the stage design, the fucking laminate, everything has to fit into

a world that I can feel like I want to inhabit, something that's comfortable and interesting. I think if you remove, so it's not just the musical part of the muse, it's the whole thing. I think if you're like, oh, you know what, I'm going to get into, I'm not, if my reverence for that goes away, and even in the slightest, I feel

that she will turn her back on me forever and I'll have nothing, no more poetry, no more music. Well, you're probably right. Because let's assume the muse is real. The muse would probably reserve its greatest inspiration for its most devoted followers. I think so. Yeah, the most devout followers are the ones

that are gonna be adherent to a ritual, sit in front of the computer or the notepad or however you write and just like spend time. Yeah, I could never ever write lyrics on a screen I could never do it you write it on paper oh yeah yeah does anybody write lyrics on screens I think yeah I feel like a lot of people artists that you know yeah yeah interesting I think a lot of hip-hop people write rhymes on their phones and yeah no I know I've seen I've know a lot of rock and roll people who

were like you know well the phone thing is convenient I transfer all my notes to phones because it's an occasion I'll write something on the phone the best thing about the phone honestly is like sometimes I have an idea maybe I've had a couple of cocktails too which is like you know memory is slippery when you're drinking with friends and you're having a good time but you have an idea I'll just like run into a bathroom stall and I'll hit the voice recorder and just say it I do that too I do that I do the voice recorder as well for like if I'm plucking around a guitar and a little something that I like

Or that when Rich and I are writing songs too, like if we're not But you know, I've never had a home studio. I've never wanted that. Really? I never. You want to go to a place? I want to go to a place and I like a part of my thing is I like everyone's contribution. You know what I mean? Right. I mean, in the Black Crows, Rich and I write the songs. But the contributions can be musical or the product or it could be anything.

Right. I mean, sometimes that, you know, it's the engineer and the producer and the band. It's the vibe of those people being together. And it's all of that circulating and percolating and making something, everyone in on it. You know what I mean? Like an old submarine movie or something. Right. Like you're being depth charged and everyone has a job to do so you don't die.

Right. You know? But I think that's important for me. You know, like I love, I mean Prince is one of my, musically, I mean, there's an argument you made that maybe Prince was the baddest motherfucker of all time. Definitely an argument. I mean, cause there's people who can write, there's people who can play, there's people

who can produce and record, and there's people who can dance and sing and perform. That guy did it all at its ultimate level. Every musical instrument. Yeah. Yeah, he was insane. He was so good. And he was so different. I remember when the first album came out,

it was just that picture of him with his shirt off, with his hair. And you hear the songs, and you're like, wow, this guy's out there. Yeah, the second record, Prince. Is that the second record? Yeah, the first one's called For You. And there's a picture of him kind of like, it's, he was.

It's For You is that one with Jack Me Off? No, that's later. Oh, okay. For you, the first single is Soft and Wet, which is before Jack You Off. It has to be Soft and Wet. I always laugh because by the time we're in the suburbs, I live in Atlanta. I'm obsessed with black radio at the time. Only listening to V103 FM Atlanta.

My first concert is Slave and Cool in the Gang and Sky at the Omni. I'm going to see The Time, Vanity Six, SOS, Lakeside, Cameo. Oh wow, Morris Day. Yeah, that was one of the best concerts I've ever seen. At that time in my life and only listening to that radio. So the first Prince single comes out and it's soft and wet. It's a great song. And like funky and cool, this little kind of disco breakdown

in the middle, a little roller skating shit in the middle. And I'm like, but I didn't really know what Soft and Wet was yet. You know what I mean? It was like, is this like a washcloth that he left in the bed? What is this? Yeah. No, he was a character man. A very original character. I never met met him. I never even I saw him. I only saw him in concert once really And it was fantastic he was amazing He was doing a residency once at House of Blues in Vegas But it was like really late at night. I had to do something in the morning and I passed on going I was to this day I kill myself

Yeah, cuz he would do the concert and then go play going. I was, to this day, I kill myself. Which is fucking god damn it. Yeah, cause he would do the concert and then go play another eight hours or whatever. Yeah, well he was going up really late. It's like, it was after midnight. And I was like, I got shit I have to do tomorrow. I can't do this. I can't be that tired.

To this day, I'm like, fuck. You know what's funny? The other person I met that I was, that put me very much at ease, but when I first said hello, that I was totally freaked out was George Jones. Oh, wow.

I met him at the Ryman Auditorium after Johnny Cash passed away. It's like meeting Jesus in the Sistine Chapel. I mean, I got ushered into this dressing room. I was a guest. Chris Christopherson was there. I was amazed to meet him. But I'm like, fucking George Jones. Old Possum's right there.

And I end up talking to him. And he was really, really sweet, man. I wanted to talk about Kansas City Chiefs. He loved the Chiefs. And Bow used to watch football back then. But I will always remember, so they were... He was taking over for Johnny Cash, singing... I think it's Johnny Cash, maybe it was Waylon's part. I don't know the song that great. The Highwaymen. I was a highwayman on the Columbia

River. Yeah. And he was the dam builder on Mm-hmm on the Columbia River whatever but he Looking at the lyrics even I'm a damn builder The Christmas I was like man, it's not like he goes I don't think my fans what I'm a damn builder I mean he just kept thought it was so funny and I was like amazing You know that I got to be in there. But the other funny part of that is they were like, Chris, we take a picture with George and Chris and I'm like, I'm getting my fucking picture taken with George Jones and Chris Christopherson.

That's pretty wild. This is like coolest thing. And I'm like in the middle. I'm like, man, this is the coolest day ever. And then the door opens. Look at that. My ex-wife is there too. But then the door opens, and Al Gore gets in the picture

and ruins it. Get out of the picture! Who? How did he get in there? Did he start talking about the climate? Yeah, that was his initial climate thing. But I was like, let's talk about your wife telling people what they can listen to.

What whatever. Get out of here. Who are you? Self-righteous. Yeah, people forgot about that. She was the one who made, well, it actually helped albums. Because when they put those warning labels Warning label one. Yeah, I even got a warning label. Oh, I remember what NWA had the warning label on them I mean all of that, but I mean I'm like you guys are really seriously upset about The band wasp, I mean like you think like you it's it's really ridiculous now in hindsight

But I remember I know I was in high school at the time, it was a big thing. Well, they're telling you what to do again, you know what I mean? And a lot of it was racist, you know what I mean? Oh yeah. But it was like, well, I guess I was out of high school. It was like when rap music was really starting to emerge,

and those lyrics were so shocking, like early ice tea, ice cube, all that stuff. I mean, it happened with Rock and Roll, you know what I mean? Elvis Presley, they wouldn't let him shake his hips on TV. I mean, it happened with Chuck Berry, too, you know what I mean? And there's that.

The initial phase of the cosmic fucking blood and brimstone of Rock and Roll ends pretty quickly when it starts. And then you turn into the Paul Enka, Pat Boone sort of style until the Beatles really come back around. I mean, there's, you know, you have lots of cool records in between there, but they're small. But it's interesting like that where things come in waves.

They come in waves of great artists for whatever reason. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think... I mean, at least if you look at like, when I look at my age people, we were just, we were close enough to the Beatles and close enough to the Sex Pistols and close, you know what I mean? And the Stones and Zeppelin. That shit's long gone for a lot of younger people,

you know, as time moves on. Yeah. You know what I mean? I have to ask you a question because before I forget, did Rick Rubin try to get you guys to change the name of your band? Yes. And did he really try to get you to change the name of the band to KKK, the Cobb County Crows?

I know that the king of yoga or whatever the fuck he's selling. Whatever his, you know, but under that beard, that guy, and it's funny because good for Rick Rubin, whatever, he can do whatever he wants. He has very little, Why would you say that to us? You know what I mean? Explain the conversation. How does it happen? Because I think... Well, we were called Mr. Crow's Garden, and it's a book. It's like a children's book from like the 20s called Mr. Crow's Garden with an E, so it's a name, you know, he was Mr. Crow.

And we were kind of, you know, into like psychedelic, you know, like it was our, that was the name of our band. So when we made Shaker Moneymaker, a few years had gone by since we first were Mr. Crow's Garden and now we don't sound like that. And George Choukoulis, our producer and our A&R guy and our lifeline to the music business, to the world, who signed us and stuff, he was like, we need, you know, we got to change the name. So there was a little bit of time where before we said we'll be the black crows. And that's when Rick interjected that that's what he...

Because we're Southern, aren't all Southern people fear-driven, ignorant bigots? Isn't every one of them? But he didn't say it that way, right? So how did he say it? No, he said it like, it'll be cool, it'll be like controversial. I'm like, yeah. Jesus Christ. How did he bring it up?

Like, I think this is a cool, you're from Cobb County, see, we're not from there, but we're from Atlanta. By the way, it's fucking hard to get it to change Wikipedia that they're like, me and Richard born in Marietta, we're from Atlanta, Georgia. Third generation Atlantans. I was like, my grandfather was born in Atlanta in 1906. It's hard to get that shit changed, but he was like, oh, so you live in Cobb County, C-O-B-B. Well, you should change it to Cobb County Crows and put them all case and we were like

It's it's that's So foul and disgusting. It's also it's such a crazy idea To not have like context to it just to imagine that you're gonna call ban the KKK like what the Cobb County Crows actually sounds cool. With C's. You know, it was the Cobb County CCC. No problems. Great name. Nothing wrong with it. You probably would have achieved the exact same success as the Black Crows. But I don't know because the poet in me and the armchair occultists would believe that the only way we got, we achieved what we achieved,

became what we became, is because of the way that some reason, also leaving the E in it, that was the one thing that I said we would do. And by the way, leaving the E in it was also great, and it's still great to this day when someone requests something or wants something from you and they misspelled the name of the band. We're like, yeah No, you could get a look there I Just can't imagine that conversation someone's I can't imagine it Rick is a friend of mine, just for clarity.

I don't hate Rick Rubin or anything. He's a genius. He did say that. He's a fascinating guy. I mean he's a very interesting thinker. And I can imagine this idea intrusively embedding itself in his mind and then coming out of his mouth. I just can't see how anybody would.

I mean to be honest, I found a lot of... especially in this... when our first record came out and we're on tour and we're working that record and I'm the one who has to get up in the morning and, okay, so we're playing... we're in Cleveland, now we're playing Cincinnati, I have to go to 10 radio stations in Cleveland and Cincinnati and do the handshaking and the talking and the, you know, sell the band. I meet all the like local promo people, you know, so they pick you up and stuff.

And most everyone was really super cool and they would be the people that could get you drugs and pay for drinks and stuff. But wow, I would be driving in the car with some of these guys and they'd be like, must be tough being, I'm like, talking down to me like, you don't know me. Just because I'm Southern and I'm a musician,

doesn't mean that talking down to me like I'm stupid or something or I'm like, whoa'm a musician doesn't mean that, you know, talking down to me like I'm stupid or something. I'm like, whoa, whoa. You don't know. Well, you're saying like it must be tough in what way? Like, what were they saying? Well, like, you're from Atlanta. Like, do they have schools there?

You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like just kind of patronizing me or thinking that everyone's supposed to go, oh, oh, oh, I just happened to be here. Old place and damn it. You know what I mean? Like, we're not, I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm like, we're not. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. Yeah.

You know what I mean? You don't know what books I read. You don't know what I'm into. You don't know anything about me. Well, there's always been a deep history of prejudice about people and what they would call the flyover states, the arrogance of New York and Los Angeles. And you know, you kind of sort of accept.

Dude, these are the flyover state people talking to me. Oh, that's funny. Even worse. You know, there's some people that like accept Chicago a little bit and some other cities, Detroit a little bit. But the reality was it was about the coasts. And everything in between was bullshit. As if everyone in Rochester, New York has like a PhD in French literature or something. By the way, that used to be kind of true when you would go on the road Not true, but you would notice a market difference in the awareness if you were talking about anything Out of the ordinary the awareness of people's

What they knew in certain cities in certain places in the country versus what they knew in Los Angeles Yeah, yeah, I mean they would yeah, they're, yeah, they're a hip-a-radiance or something. They weren't as sophisticated. They didn't know as much. But that changed with the internet. Yeah, everyone has exact same references. Cleveland, Ohio, wherever you go,

there's fucking people that get it. They get it. Do you remember when Bill Hicks used to just look at the audience and go, mooo! Mooo! Oh yeah. Bill Hicks used to just look at the audience and go, Moo! Moo! Oh yeah. Oh yeah. A lot of people still haven't caught up to Bill, but.

Oh, he was great. I mean, he used to call it his flying saucer tour, because he would only go to places where flying saucers would land. Like, weird little out of the way spots. What's that record called, Rant in C minor or something? It's something like- A minor? It's at A minor.

I don't remember. I don't know what key it's in, but I mean, I still put that on and it's just fantastic. Fantastic. Believably funny. Change comedy. Change comedy. Made people want to become profound. It changed comedy from just a bunch of stuff to laugh at to stuff that made you think about

it after you're done laughing. I think George Carlin had that as well. For sure. Yeah, for sure in a different way. But you know, Hicks was more psychedelic inspired and it was just more esoteric. There's a rock and roll like thing in him that for lack of another description I think that gave him that kind of energy. Yeah, it's the right way to describe it I think.

I had a chance to see him live a bunch of times, luckily. Like in a way he understood what a great underground band means to someone. Oh yeah, and what it meant to him. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. He was an artist. He was an artist that was also a comedian.

He wasn't trying to conform to whatever the stereotypical, this is the guy that's going to get a sitcom act is going to create. Yeah. But there's not a lot of those guys. Is the sitcom worth it? It doesn't exist anymore. No, but I mean for those comics that took that route that maybe-

You know what? It was the golden carrot. It was the thing that they held over all of our heads is that if you develop an act that can be converted into a sitcom, all of a sudden you're Tim Allen and you have $50 million in the bank, or you're Jerry Seinfeld, or you're Brett Butler, or you're Roseanne Barr. There was like a few of those people. Yeah. And there's a bunch of people that had managed some more obscure shows that people forgot about, but they made a lot of money as well. And it was this thing that if you

could get on a sitcom and then all of a sudden you're the king of queens. You know, like my friend Kevin James, that was his thing. And that's how he got through it. And that was the magic portal, the magic portal to wealth. And it also fucked up a lot of people's acts because there was a lot of really funny comics. That's what I mean, after that, now you're kind of stuck. Censored.

Yeah, and now the things that you wanna say you can't can't say self-censored. This is the saddest thing I know some of the great comics of like the 90s that are ruined because they self-censored now because they they sort of Developed this act for television and then once we're on television, they got all that TV money They wanted to keep it coming in so they never really branched out into more offensive subject matter or, you know, just more provocative. More provocative. You know what I mean? And I think irreverent in some ways, you know what I mean? And you feel free, everyone else will judge what that is.

Yeah, but it's just the problem is you're never going to make everybody happy, and now way more people have an opinion they can express, like of social media like everyone can express their opinion it's not as simple as your you hope to get the favor of a reviewer like someone who's cool really likes bands comes to see oh Bob's here this guy's fucking cool he's gonna review our show and you like you kind of trusted Bob Bob was a good guy he really loved music wasn't trying to tear things down those guys don't exist anymore yeah yeah you know now now what everyone't trying to tear things down. Those guys don't exist anymore. Yeah, yeah.

Now what everyone's trying to do is get people on social media to like them or not be mad at them. So when they put out a special, you see these- Not be mad at them. Yeah, you see these, which as a comic- The role of the artist sometimes is to make your audience mad at you, to challenge them. Yes.

I mean, you know what I mean? In a way like, oh God, how many things things in life that I didn't like at a time that I finally found my way through later and be like, oh, of course, thank you. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you, of course, that's the natural progression. Of course. It's the natural way.

And by the way, not everything is supposed to be, like you were saying. And I guess that's where we are with this social media. Nothing can have that sort of mystique around it anymore because it's forcing too much out of someone. You're expecting too much from someone to either follow you and or understand, get it or acceptance. Right. Yeah. Well, it's just a foolish pursuit.

The pursuit of other people who you don't even know their their love and attention and you will morph and change and adapt whatever you're trying to produce in order to gain their favor that's a fucking folly that's such a foolish way of interacting with human beings and whatever you create it's not it's completely false I mean you're and you can see where, you know, personally, I think you're starting to see culturally where that hollowness and that falseness isn't helping. Oh, it's definitely not helping. It's pushing us over the edge. Yeah, it's not good. You

need experiences from people where when they resonate these, when they put out these works, whether it's a book or music or anything, this thing represents their soul and their perspective and their actual, this is a thing they've created, not a thing they're doing so they hope you like it, not a thing they're doing so they hope you don't get mad, not a thing they're doing where you highlight social issues so people think they're a virtuous person. Yeah. Yeah. It's not.

Well, it's funny when you say that, the virtuous part of it, that's funny too because, you know, especially like, you know, the lobby of your place is full of pictures of famous people who have been arrested for shit. Yeah, all my mugshots. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I mean, in a way, in a counterculture way, whether it's a poet, a musician, a jazz musician, anyone, you know, Robert Mitchum, you know what, you know Robert Mitchum's cooler than Kurt Douglas because he got busted for smoking pot. Okay, so Robert Mitchum's cooler than you Kurt Douglas

But The outsider in culture, you know I mean the loser and the outsider or other themes that we do not celebrate as much and I'm not talking about some Fabricated pop star who pouts and is like, look how dark I am. You know what I mean? That's not what I'm talking about. And that's always there. Again, showbiz and corporate things

can manipulate these kind of archetypes and put them in the genre specific things that they want because they know. That's something different. Formulating a rebel is so gross. Yeah, yeah, totally, oh my God. A formulated rebel, a disingenuous formulated rebel. Yeah, I mean, but-

You see them. You do, but I think they sort of make you really appreciate people that are true artists, or the people that are just, it really is just their expression and what they're trying to create that they hope people enjoy. You know, there's a different thing.

I mean, it's funny because that's, you know, more than ever, not just for the fact that I really had to go through certain things to come full circle with my career and my brother and what the black crows mean. In my life, a lot of things, you know, a lot of it starting with my wife Camille and stuff. But one of the things that keeps me excited and one of the main things that I love is I know that we're, call us old fashioned or call us naive or anything you want.

It doesn't matter. But we were talking about that stupid flame idea, this purity. But I know when we go out on tour and we write songs, make records, play concerts, it's something that is raw still in there. We're not in-air monitors. There's no computer on our stage. You know what I mean? We don't... You see these fucking bands cancel a show because their laptop didn't

work. I'm like, well, buy your mom's. Buy your mom's laptop. Do they really cancel shows because their laptop crashes? Yeah, it happens all the time. That is fucking hilarious. And like there's bands that are up there not even playing and they press a button and they're up, you know what I mean? Which is fine like whatever you want to do to get over I get it I'm again. I was born the same year the Beatles made revolver. I get it. You know what I mean?

But think about that in my daughter's lifetime the Beatles will be a fucking hundred years old The record will be a 1964 is a hundred years ago. That's crazy So crazy do you think about it that way. Because when I was a kid, it was just a decade or two ago. Pete Slauson Well, in the same decade between the Beatles, if that 100 years was the end of the Civil War and the Beatles, you know what I mean? It's weird.

It's a weird thing to look at time that way. Pete Slauson Well, it really puts it into perspective because we look at everything through this lens of a finite lifespan of a hundred years If you're lucky, you know, we look at everything like this is this is like a long time, but it's not a long time No fucking I did used to do this joke about that The Constitution like the American America was founded in 1776. I go people live to be a hundred. That's three people ago Yeah, three people ago. They started this. Like, it's nothing. It's so new. Everything's so new. Civilization itself. Oh my god, it's so ancient. Is it really? It's not.

Pete I mean, you're talking about 3,000 years, but in the big scope of things. Jared It's not that much time. And I think historically and because of science and things, you know, it's like that idea of, well, this was the Bronze Age. It started on Thursday, but then they find a corpse in the ice in the Italian Alps and the guy has a bronze sword and he's 2,000 years before they thought. They're like, fuck, I got to re- re... There's a problem with that with archaeologists. I gotta get my abacus out and do the math. Yeah, they're very reluctant to change the dates of things they've been publishing about

forever. But there's some things that they find every now and then that force them. Like there's a place called Gobekli Tepe in Turkey that's 11,000 years old and they found it in the 90s. I believe it was a sheep herder found this like piece of stone in the ground, he kicked at it, moved it around and realized it had an edge to it. And then they excavated it and it's just an enormous

temple structure and to this day, I've only excavated like 5% of it. There's a lot of controversy behind it because people are like, why aren't they continuing to excavate? Like, what are they doing? Well now in archeology, they can do almost just as much with Sonic. They can plan out what's going on and not disrupt. Well, that's how they know there's many, many of these structures around that same area.

You know, we did the last year, 11000 years old. The last show of our tour, we were in Merida, Spain, playing in a Greek, I mean playing in a Roman theater that they had only done the excavations in the 50s because I guess at a certain point, they just filled... There's an amphitheater next to it where they would have gladiatorial games and things, and then a theater for theatrical and religious purposes. But you're sitting, you know, Pink Floyd gets Pompeii, we get Merida. It's still cool, you know? But you're playing in this place. It was built during the reign of Augustus. And then the guy goes, yeah, well, you know, it was just filled with trash.

There it is. Wow, that's incredible. It was just filled with trash. And then finally, they, that's incredible. It was just filled with trash and then finally they dug it all out of there, you know, and so then this was down there. Wow, that was all covered? Yeah. That's nuts. That is so nuts. It was fantastic, beautiful place. We went to Greece last year. Magical. I got to see the... Delphi? Well, we went to Ulysses or no, what? How do you say it? Illusian? Well, the Illusian mysteries, right? Illusinian mysteries. Where you descend into the cave, I think. Well, at one point was a parking lot from what I've read, because I'm really really... You mean now?

Have they? Yeah, yeah. Like where the original mysteries took place. No, no, you can still go there. Oh, really? Yeah, it's all cartoned off. It's protected. You know, you have to go through a gate to get in. There's guards there and stuff. But we went to there, which is where the Illucinian mysteries were.

And I got really lucky to go with my friend Brian Murorescu. I was there with my family, and Brian was there at the same time. And Brian Murorescu is a scholar who wrote this incredible book about the use of psychedelics in ancient Greece that's now been confirmed through they take these old pieces of pottery and they found ergot in the pottery. Yeah of course. They think all their wine was laced with psychedelics and these people were and they invented democracy. I mean they're

tripping balls and trying to give everybody an equal participation in society and figuring things out. But you're around these structures and these are fucking thousands of years old. What is it? What was it? The? The kookion? The drink?

Yeah, the drink. Yeah. Yeah, the kookion. Yeah. You know, and they find this almost exact same structure in Peru as well. Really? And down in the thing, psychedelics, mirrors in the corner where they could build fires and like send lights around and stuff.

That's awesome. Yeah. And then, but what happens in Greece is they, it's, what is the law? It's a once in a lifetime experience, but then the rich people get their hands on it and they start having their ceremonies Private ceremonies more exclusive or elitist. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of the fall of that Well, the Romans put a stop to it People know they did these people are like rethinking society the same way They put a stop to it in the 1960s when the government made

all psychedelic drugs schedule one when they were doing that so they can go after the anti-war protesters and the Black Panthers and they changed the counterculture moving cannabis is close to the same thing I mean you know when I first made the decision to be a daily cannabis user I was an outlaw now. I'm a patient You're like we used to be like, you know Yeah, people think they killed Bob Marley because of shit like that, but now it's just like it's my medicine. Yeah Well, you you know, it's now and how many states Jamie legal and how many did we say it was like legal in 19 and I think it's half the country has legal marijuana, half the country, and the other half the country wants it. Like what are we doing? Like how the fuck is it 2024 with all that we

know about all the drugs and that this one, 24 states, three territories in Washington DC have legalized recreational cannabis use. Seven states have decriminalized its use. Commercial distribution is legal in all jurisdictions where possession is legal except for Virginia and Washington, D.C. Personal cultivation for recreational use is allowed in all jurisdictions except for Delaware, Illinois, New Jersey. That's surprising. And Washington state, that's even more surprising. First off, let's just be honest. No one's ever, ever had fun in Delaware. I'm just kidding.

And there where Biden's from. I think it's just a dumb thing for us to be hanging on to the fact that they're still allowing grown adults to tell other grown adults what they can do with their consciousness. With all the data that we know about things that are very harmful that are not just legal but prescribed by doctors. How about just everything is harmful that they allow in the world? They don't give a fuck about the sea being a plastic desert but don't smoke pot. I mean, I find that's always been the case with authority, isn't it? You know what I mean?

Like language. You know what I mean? What language can you use and how you use it? Matthew 16.6 Sex and violence, you know, the fact that violence is... Pete Slauson Well, talk about Rome, then. Now we're going back to Rome. And one of the reasons Rome was so successful is because they placated... And we talk about Rome, we're not talking about Italy, we're talking about the city-state of Rome. That is the thing that conquered the room, the city-state. And the surrounding areas were other things, but they keep the masses happy with

violence and free bread. And in the same way that you control people by fear and ignorance, keep them... You know what I mean? And it's exactly... And TikTok. Just keep them mildly entertained all day long and distracted. I find the idea of TikTok about as interesting as the game TikTok. I don't even know, TikTok toe?

TikTok toe, yeah. Yeah. I'm not doing that either. No, I'm not doing that either. It is crazy when you go to the Coliseum and you realize the extent of the construction of it and how elaborate it was and How many different things they had going on where they would turn it into like they have both naval battlefield up with water

Incredible wild shit that animals and cages they could race through the floor. It's unimaginable And now you know the thing about going there too is you go I wonder if they ever thought this was gonna end did they ever imagine of course not no They certainly never imagined some idiot comedian and his family from California at the time We're gonna go visit and go whoa cool. This is where they had sword fights. I mean, I I Imagined yeah, it's it's I think some of the Emperor's probably in an egocentric way felt, and it's true. Everyone knows, you know, a lot, you know, there might be some kid who never heard of Bird's record, but he might know who Nero was or Caligula or something, or like the most dramatic sort

of deranged parts of like where the, where that period of Rome of the dictator starts to become... It's just always shocking when you go to a place that was in complete control of most of the world. And then now it's nothing. Now it's gone. Now it's just ruins that people visit, and it's just a city. Yeah, what if Bill Gates had been like Guido, whatever?

That'd be a different thing. What if the whole internet came from Italy, not America, you know what I mean? It's just always weird to go to a place too when you're from America. Claudio Gatso, whatever, like he came up with this. You know what I mean? But they had a pretty good run in the Renaissance. Oh, well, they've had amazing runs. Artistically, I mean that's also something I think about when I go to Italy. There is something about their life and their lifestyle that contributes to this incredible body of work when it comes to art, when it comes to music,

when it comes to sculptures and paintings. There's so many great artists that came from that part of the world. Have you ever seen a book called Naples 44? Do you know this book? John No. Pete It's one of, it's, a friend of mine gave it to me a couple years ago. It's a British Secret Service officer, comes to Naples in 1944, directly in the, you know, push of the Allies pushing the Germans and then fascists up the peninsula from Sicily

and then landing in Italy. And it's an unbelievable book that this guy writes. And it's the sadness and the tragedy of it. And like anything else, war is dramatic war is pain and violent the aftermath of war is something That people rarely are can wrap their heads around or interested in maybe because it's even you know You take away the drama of the battle and stuff. It's bleak, but there's something about and this guy's not Italian English guy But he captures the spirit the humanity within like this transitional period in Naples, but unimaginable stories, depravity, but also great exalted human things as well. And then just some things that are incredible, like, you know, Italians in their clothes. And even the rich, the aristocratic class in Naples to the person

that could, when they didn't have any fabric, around this time after that, they're walking around Naples in beautifully tailored suits made of old army blankets that they would use black paint on to make them look chic. And I was like, wow, I would love to see that garment in a museum. But just all manner of things. And there's another American guy was there at the same time and wrote another book about it, which is also very interesting because this guy was one of the only books of that time,

I have it in my phone, I could tell you, but that talks about like the gay scene with the soldiers in Naples and stuff too, like during this thing, like just, you know what I mean? Incredible stories, incredible survival and heroics and art and culture that still survive and you know, during during the darkest time. It's a great, great book, unbelievable, unforgettable. Well, it's always interesting, too,

when you're thinking about things thriving and existing against resistance in a dark time or a different time, a time of much more difficulty. And you get a chance to sort of feel what they felt when they were doing what they were doing. I mean, I think culturally, historically, I mean, I think one of the great reasons Europeans have a much different attitude, you're talking about Sicilians, Italians, but everyone, French,

Spanish. Spanish people know how to have a good time. To have two events like the World War I and World War II, yeah, we have very little. It's hard for us to understand what those two events must have felt like through communities, cities, families. I just read another amazing book called Wine and War, and it's a history of like the wine business during the Nazi occupation during World War II. Unimaginable wild shit going on. But the French people, you know, because the Germans, they knew as well, like, you know, what's the blood of France is the wine? What is the thing that holds it together in all these things?

But it's also a great commodity and also something of great elevated status, you know All this stuff with the way they dealt with the Vichy Just you know, I'm like wow, man These guys had a lot on their plate for five years and leading up to the you know, inevitable Nazi occupation Well, even in World War one, I mean, in World War I, France lost 25% of its men. And then in World War II, they lost another 25%. Which is crazy.

In the book, and also just history, I think that's one of the reasons I think Germany, a lot of French people just didn't want to do it again. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. And that, and I think, you know, and you know, it's funny too, like history repeats itself all the time. We know this, you know, and there was a lot of infighting and political things within the French government at that time, whether that's, you know, through the military whatever, that made them really a soft spot. You know what I mean?

They had no, there was no cohesiveness of the way they would think about fighting or defending or whatever as well. But they went out in the end, you know what I mean? But this book about just how that affects all the different wine regions and the characters and stuff. That has to be insane. It's a great, great book. Because it's so important over there. Wine is everything to them. It's so important.

And you know, it's funny, one of the things in the book, you're like, okay, so they're obviously, you know, confiscating everything for the Wehrmacht and doing all this stuff. But they take this, I might be wrong, but I think it's the Pue Fusse. They take this, I might be wrong, but I think it's the Pou-et-Fou-se. They take this guy has like however many casks or whatever. And they just take everything. And then the guy's upset. He's been in his family for 400 years or whatever. And he's sitting there with his head in his hands

and they're like, it's just wine. He goes, I know it's just wine, but they destroyed 300 year old casks, the oak barrels. That that's the secret to the R wine. And they chopped them up and threw them on a fire or whatever, you know what I mean? And he was more upset about that than the wine itself at that time.

And he was like, they're irreplaceable. Could never ever have that again. It's been in my family for, you know, stuff like that really gets And he was like, they're irreplaceable. Could never ever have that again. It's been in my family for three, you know, stuff like that really gets my head spinning off. Oh yeah, forget it. It's not just the grape and the person that makes the wine. It's that, you know what I mean? It's every, every detail, every aspect. Well, they can also destroy the history of how it was made. Like people won't know how to do it correctly. I mean, that's the one of the darker aspects of occupation is when

they destroy ancient stuff, like the burning of the Library of Alexandria. I mean, could you imagine what that... I mean, we have no... I mean, unimaginably... And by the way, who burned it down? Christians. Did they? Yeah. It was Christian people who ran amok because of something that had happened, some sort of crime that was committed or something. And it was the early Christians who burned that down. Those motherfuckers. You imagine if that had some sort of an explanation as to how they built the pyramids and it's lost forever?

It could be anything. I mean, millions and millions of... But that was the most sophisticated society that has even today ever existed. If you look at ancient Egypt, in terms of their ability to construct things that baffle us to this day, like the Great Pyramid baffles people to this day. There's hundreds of thousands of people debating how and why and what they were for and what they did, and we really don't know. I'm also interested in anything where before science becomes one thing and like the occult is another thing. Right.

And I'll just, you know, there's a certain time and I'm really interested in John Dee, the great occultist scientist English around the Elizabeth the First reign, alchemist. But that his scientific ideas were equally, they possessed the same gravity as his occult ideas. And those things were in the same world. They weren't removed from each other. It wasn't like one was silly and one was serious. They were both taken with the same level of sobriety or whatever, you know? And that's what we were talking before. I

think to remove the mystic from everything or not to be able to at least have a nod to it or understand, I mean, what is ancient Egypt? You know what I mean? Yes, they're a great civilization that could organize, but at its base and what's holding it together is this mystical, like, weird thing, you know? So to remove that completely, I think it's... I don't know. It seems so rigid, you know? It's a foolish, rational reductionist. There has to be integration of different things because you feel people's need for that to integrate those things. Well, there has been in all great cultures, right?

I mean, in Chichen Itza, have you ever been to the ancient Mayan structures? I've been to some, but I didn't go to that one. They all involve... I went to two other ones, and they're in... Places of worship, and they all involve rituals. I mean, there was a lot going, and what they did was incredible. And psychedelics. And psychedelics, yeah.

I mean, as well. I went to Jijinitsu, we got lucky. There was a really good professor that was kind of explaining things to us, and he was talking about the different psychedelics that they believed that they would use, and the way they had structured all their buildings to align with constellations, and the way they had structured all their buildings to align with constellations and the way they had sort of worshiped this whole integration of the sky into all of their architecture. I mean, it's an integration into universal consciousness. I mean, that's really what it is. And it's funny, like, because you think, well, you're poisoning the water. Well, you're

poisoning, we're all, it's all one living organism, and the universe is one living organism. Right, right, right. I mean, I don't want to get too far out, man, you know, but of course, it's all just like the ecosystem or whatever, like the frog eats the tadpole, and then the bird eats the frog, you know what I mean? But it's, just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it's not- It scales up.

Yeah, and out and within. And not... It scales up. Yeah. And out and within. And in, yeah, forever. Yeah, that's the reality of it. So it's not just we're poisoning the water, we're poisoning ourselves. Yeah. And of course, you know, again, I would like to think the earth is a strong thing, but... And I don't get wrapped up in it, but it's like, I mean, if you shouldn't, if

you live in your own shit, you get sores, you know? Yeah. You know what I mean? Right. And hence the plague. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a, this is just when you think about the, the universe as a whole, it's just too big for our brains. We don't think, we just think about our neighborhood or our lives or our personal problems or our bills or our tick tock. Yeah. Nonsense. And it's just thinking about nonsense. You know what people think about that? They can buy shoes that they don't have to touch to put their feet in.

I see this because order room, we see a commercial and the guy walks over there like never touch your shoes again. I'm like, wow. you know, I mean like finally Oh slot it's choosing it's lighting. Yeah, and I'm like amazing that everything is everyone relaxed, you know Your shoe what if I want to touch my shoes? Yeah Yeah Yeah, well some people don't understand. They want comfort. You know, and some people, especially if you're doing

something you don't enjoy, you think of struggle as like your job or work, and then once you're not doing that, you don't want any struggle. You just want relaxation. But isn't it funny also that our culture is dictating a certain health thing? Take the sober challenge. Go to the gym, buy these gym clothes, and walk around in them.

Do all this, but we're not going to take care of anything else. You know what I mean? You don't care about our mental health. You don't really care about our health. You know what I mean? You don't do anything, but culturally, let's start putting this out there. You know what I mean? When I first went to New York City, there were bars and bookstores and weird junk stores and all sorts of things that weren't corporate. And now it's just gyms and banks. And I think I don't really go to the gym, but I imagine you could get an ATM in the

gym next door to the bank with the ATM. I'm sure you could. A lot of gyms, I'm sure, have ATMs. I'm just saying, be healthy. You know what I mean? But I'm sure, have ATMs. I'm just saying, you know, like, be healthy, be, you know what I mean? But I'm like, it is funny. Like, there's nothing that's saying to you be cerebral. You know what I mean? There's not a lot out there.

You know, you watch old Dick Cavett shows, they're smart people, and they're not promoting a movie or a fucking book or what. They're just talking about ideas and philosophy and art and their culture and the society. Even, what was his name? Mike Douglas show. There's Muhammad Ali and John Lennon and then some senator from Oklahoma or whatever. They're just talking. You could do that back then. Now it's gotta be, the interview is pre-done, it's about the mood, they show the clip. That's only on television, but that's also why podcasts

are so popular. You can just kind of talk about anything. You have a new place that's also not under the scrutiny of having to play commercials every five seconds. It's also, that's a big factor, but it's also not under anybody else's direction or advice. Yeah, that's what's really important Yeah, how can you know I know if I'm not doing it? I'm just cynical I'm just but I mean if I'm not doing it at my level of the game if I'm not doing it Like you don't have to do it. Yeah, you don't have to all you have to do is make something that resonates with people and avoid Anybody else's input. I've had a lot of bad input come my way that I've ignored.

You know, especially in the early days when things started to kind of take off, everybody has an opinion about how you can grow this thing to the next level, which is those they want to talk about. You know how to take the show to the next level. You know, they thought about having more celebrity and more this and that and that. And everyone has advice.

And maybe just avoid these kind of topics or maybe this and that. And like, as long as you don't have any input from other people then Whether people like it or don't like it it at least it's you It's you and the people you're talking to and it's a real thing. It's not a it's not a promotional ride. It's not a By this right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It just exists as which is just one dimension of things Yeah, and you know, it's nice to be clean cut and your teeth are white

and you're smiling and you're selling shit. You know what I mean? By the way, I got a pair of shoes. You don't even have to touch them. What size are you? I don't even understand that. But it's just... If I could walk around like an 18th century French Duke,

I would. Well look at that jacket. That is a rock and roll fucking jacket. I've been looking at that thinking the moment. I saw you Your muscles are too big to get it. I mean it was tailored But I'm just thinking I don't know if I could pull that off out in public People like what are you doing dude as a comedian like you can't be too cool unless you're cat Williams As a comedian like you can't be too cool unless you're cat Williams Fuck I tell you why cat Williams is cool cuz he's still out there

Talking shit and an eight-year-old beat him up that time 11 year old kid in the hood grabbed that motherfucker in the headlock. Yeah, he's like laying on the ground I was like man. You gotta have some you had to be cool to come back from that Well, he's just real you know just he is who he is and everybody loves him But that guy can wear anything, but I can't I can't wear sparkly shoes Rings he's he's an awesome dude to Fun guy really cool. I only got to hear it the one time I did a podcast with him and you know And it was because he did another podcast We said Joe will never have me on his podcast and I'm like, I'll have you on anytime you want like we just never

Talked I never met him before. Oh really? Comedians are like drummers. They all know each other, you know Knows every drummer and every band. I know everybody else. I just never met him. That's funny. That's funny. He was already so huge that when he would stop by in comedy clubs, this is like after the Pimp Chronicles, he would only go to a bunch of different clubs. And if you weren't there when Cat was there, you missed him. So he only came to the Comedy Store a handful of times.

And the Comedy Store, that was my haunt. And that's where I went with all my friends and all the best comics in LA and Europe. Of course. We all collaborated at the Comedy Store was that was my haunt and that's where I went with all my friends and all the you know The best comics in LA and of course collaborate at the Comedy Store, and I never got to see him there I mean I'd heard he was the like smack somebody once like somebody in the front porch one night I missed it you know, but I just I'd always admired him. I thought and I'd always talked nice about him I didn't understand why he thought I wouldn't have him on the podcast But once I met him, he's a joy. He's a he's a funny smart dude. Who's a lot of what he's saying He knows the fuck he's doing. He's like very tongue-in-cheek and very just having a good time with it, but he's a Genuine character like a genuine unique character. I would love to meet him. Oh, he's great. You love him

Very smart dude to very I see him at the airport, I'll say, yo man, you like this jacket? He might be able to fit in that. It'd be a little long. Might have to get the sleeves taken in. Where the fuck do you get that jacket? You know, my wife got me this jacket. It's pretty dope. She's got good taste. Yeah, she truly does. Yeah, and then you're wearing about ten pounds of silver. Yeah It's true. They call me the silver stacker. I don't know if you're That's what the kids call it. My daughter calls it that which wears but it's my stack I'm just learning about these things. I just gotta be careful not to fall in the pool. Yeah, but I just love when Rockstars stay rock stars. It's nothing bums me out more than seeing an old rock star in a golf shirt

My dude. Yeah, you gotta hang in there. I know you're 60 Stones there 80 they Amazing I love that. I mean, I'm wearing I have stones. I mean, the stones are everything. They're, I love the Rolling Stones. I always have. And I've, we, the Black Crows toured with them in 1995. We did all of Europe with them. We did Wembley Stadium with them. I've, you know, I've got, you know, I've got to hang with Keith and run. I've, you know, that's hung with Mick a little bit. They're the fucking Rolling Stones, you know? And so my wife and I and my 14-year-old daughter, who lives on the East Coast, she was with us for the few weeks this summer,

I'm like, let's go, you know what I mean? I haven't seen them in a while, and we went, and I went without any, you know what I mean? I went with nothing. I wasn't going in with any expectation except to pay my, be there with everyone and see the Rolling Stones and be there.

And they were great. Mick Jagger's voice was incredible. Incredible at 80 years old. I mean, his energy and stuff's incredible, but his singing, I mean, they did Wild Horses that night and I looked over and my 14 year old was like crying and I was like She's feeling it so deep. Yeah

great midnight rambler the This they're in a stadium with just like eat Ronnie and Keith just had like two Speakers on stage and still playing a lot of bands don't play live anymore. They have their digital shit through the PA There's not even any sound on stage stage Well, it's all through their in-ears and to me that's really weird Mmm, whatever it takes for you to get the gig. I'm hip to people do it I've seen cool shows like that, but personally I like a lot of Sonic chaos a real yeah, I want to feel it I saw them at coda the circuit of the Americas a couple years ago Yeah, and you, it's just,

when you watch Mick Jagger walk out onto the stage, you almost can't believe he's really there. Like, how is that really him? I told my wife he's like a Sasquatch, but everyone's seen him. Right. It's like he, and he's still out there. I remember Bill Hicks had a bit in 1988 about the Stones still doing it. In 1988, but there's this crazy thing, oh my God, the Stones have a new album, like what? This is 88.

And here we are in 2024, and they're still out there killing it. And the show was amazing. It was amazing. Amazing, it's so good. I was the best, I mean, the best, I consider myself a midnight rambler aficionado. One of the best midnight ramblers I've ever heard.

Oh, they were so good. It was so good and people were, you know what I mean? Just, it was really, I'm so happy that we went to SoFi Stadium. You know what I mean? I was just, it was great. You know, because I will admit sometimes, and okay, let's be honest, I get access to backstage. You know, we have, it's cool. But sometimes in big places like that,

something, I get a little bit like, not because of that people would know you, I just get weird around giant crowds. Right, right. I did when I was little, I didn't like theme parks, you know, all sorts of weird stuff. Yeah. But it was so cool. I was so inspired. You know what I mean? I like floated out of there so happy that guy has two trailers that he takes with him everywhere that are just a gym

Two huge trailers that are just like Mick Jagger works out every day And when he gets out on that stage and like he's fucking 80 I know he might be 81 if I live to be 80 you could come find me I'm gonna be 300 pounds living in Sicily They're gonna you know those beautiful painted wagons. They'll drag me around and it like but you won't even get to 300 pounds No, you don't that's what's crazy. That's when you realize we're being poisoned Yeah, you eat in Europe for a week, and you don't weight You're like this is not I had pizza. I had pasta. I didn't feel bad You come over here you feel like you got hit with a tranquilizer dart. Yeah, like we're fucking poisoning ourselves

You won't get to 300 pounds if you live in Sicily. No unless you drink a lot of fucking water Yeah, even the wine is like it's better Well, it's just there's something about like just the air there just something about the I'm not a you know, I'm not I have no I'm English We're we are pretty much in our DNA English and then like a big scoop of Polish Jew on top You know not even a big scoop at this point both my grandfather and my dad were Shiksa loving Jewish men who whittled me and my brother down to about 20%. But when I'm, I don't know, there's something about there that is so just, I don't know.

I love to go to Paris, but Paris isn't relaxing. I'm out all doing stuff. I love London. I love Madrid. I love lots of places. I love Rome. I love lots of places in the world. But something about Sicily, man, I'm like just, I'm in. You know what I mean? Like you said, it's something about the lifestyle, just so laid back. And maybe I like it because it's a bit of anachronism. I think you know what I mean? Like you're going, you feel like you've stepped out of the same pace and or rhythm of the

modern future world that we see every day. Yes, it's a different vibration. It's different. I mean, and then everybody's doing it that way too. So you sort of settle into their way of life. You sort of settle into their pace of things. And then if you need a shot of adrenaline, just hit Palermo,

because that place is wild. Oh, I'm sure. It was so good. Is it still run by the mob? They say no. Oh, then yes. They say that it doesn't exist anymore. But if I remember,

there was a big scandal during lockdown in some small town in Sicily, or maybe it was Palermo. I'd have to research it today. The police were upset because some old mob guy had died and they had a giant parade. No one was in here. Yeah, everyone was just out there, old, you know Everyone was out there doing their thing for Don whoever it was who is not with us anymore And I was like, okay, they didn't want that story out. You know, yeah Well, those people ran that place for a long ass time You know, they're an integrated part of their society like the Yakuza is in Japan Yeah, it's just for a very long time for a very long time, for virtually, the way it works. Have you ever seen a funny movie called Johnny Stacchino?

No. With Roberto Bellini, the Italian comedic actor? No. You would love it. Yeah. It's so fun. It's from the 80s. Stacchino is a toothpick, yeah?

So he's Johnny Toothpick. And it's that fit. What's the story of it? It's Johnny toothpick. And it's that fit. What's the story of it's a famous story that, you know, he he's a school teacher in Naples or whatever, but he looked or in Italy and he and this girl who's the wife or lover, whatever some big gangster in Sicily, she see he's trying to he's in hiding because he did like ratted on someone. I don't know something. She sees him and he looks just like him. So she brings him to Sicily and of he's in hiding because he did like ratted on someone I don't know something she sees him and he looks just like him so she brings him to Sicily and he's like walking around

you're like yo what are you doing you know what I mean like so it's that kind of thing but it's unbelievably funny movie it's insane. Do you remember there was an Italian singer who created a very popular song where it was fake American lyrics. God, I'm trying to remember his name, but it was a song where he's singing fake words that sound like he's singing like the Rolling Stones or, you know, the Beatles or something like that. But he's doing it with fake words. It's like what he thinks American songs sound like but it's gibberish This is the guy. What is his name? Adriano, Selentano, give me some give me some volume on this

It's really cool. I love The song is very cool with a couple of different versions of it This is like a live performance of it But there's another one that's like a music video of it and it's like really fucking interesting what that guy did. That's cool That's really yeah, I just made up fake American music Fucking great. I'm gonna do that next week. Why not? Fuck it. I mean, you know, that's There's there's a lot of songs that have like words that aren't really words, you know, they're just kind of like sounds, you know Dan Arbok talks about that from the black keys like a lot of times he sings things

He's just like making up sounds making up words. Mick Jagger did it. Yeah Yeah, or he took words and mashed them into something that was more especially live in the 70s He has a lot of vowels going on. You're like, I don't know he has a lot of vowels going on. And you're like, I don't know what he's saying. It's so good. But man, he's not lost any of the energy. If you watch his old performances and now,

it's just an older guy doing the same vibe. It's also very cool because they play everything in the same key. You'll find a lot of older, and I get it, man. Singing is a physical thing. I mean, my one thing is kind of like the muse. Like if I stopped singing, it would go away. Mm. You know what I mean?

I'm going to take two years off. It would never get back to where my voice is. Why is that? It's just the nature of the physicality, I think. You know what I mean? Especially as it's 35 years, 40 years of singing. So it's like you're working muscles in your neck. Vocal chords are just muscles, yeah.

Wow, and you're working them on a regular basis and they get out of shape. Yeah. And then like that, and then it just won't come back. Oh, wow. Or it won't come back to where I'd like to, like I really like where my voice is. Yeah.

I say we sing the songs in the same keys, you know. It was funny we played the forum, we were the first concert in the forum, LA forum after COVID. And it was a bit I had never played there. It was a big night. It was, you know, friends and family. It was great. But George Dacuulias, who's produced our's produced our first two records and signed the band, after the show he was like, if I had known you'd still be singing them 30 whatever years later, we could have put the keys back for you. That wasn't how it worked back then.

Because in rock and roll, you have the verse and then you get to the chorus and you want to get it exciting. Yeah. You want to knock it up a notch, you know, but we don't change them either. And I like that. I mean, my voice has changed obviously, but But it's still the same key. Do you wonder how long you're going to do it? Do you ever think about stopping? I don't. I do sometimes. I mean, it you know, the pandemic was funny for me because at first, not financial three things or whatever. It was just like, you know, since I was a teenager,

pretty much this is what we do. We tour, we do concerts, and we make music, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, maybe I'm going to go a little kooky not doing it. And then I really, I mean, I had horrible days like everyone else, and, you know, despair and fear and stuff of the unknown. But a lot of those days, like, I was like, I have a lot of interests, you know what I mean? I have a lot of others. I'd like to write a book. I'd maybe like to write more than one book, you know, find my voice outside of the musician in another artistic way or whatever and just loving my wife and – Trevor Burrus Living life. David Kopel Yeah, and moving to Sicily. But a lot of those things you, you know, I'm not ready to do that now.

But also I look ahead and I'm like, do I want to be on stage when I'm 75? Do I want to? There's a difference if I have to. I don't know. I guess I'll call it when I'm lucky enough to get to 75. I mean, I'll get through the end of the week You know that I mean, but I do I love it But it but but for that event gave me the perspective of there's others

I don't want you know what I mean? I would hate to be I've always hated the idea that this is all I could do Mm-hmm that might sound weird, but no No, no, it's a great thought. Because I'm born to do it. I love that kind of scenario. Like, you know, like this is my wife's... Like when I watch you, we're friends. When I see you in your element, this is obviously what you're supposed to do. But I think I have... I don't know if ambition is the right word, but I definitely have interest in things that have nothing to do with this. Yeah, you know Well, that's part of being a human right? You don't want to be isolated to one specific interest and I so many fascinating things and that isolation

That's a thing too. And I'm really happy with Would what could we have a level of success? It's great or whatever Yeah, maybe I don't know but the one thing I like about my life is I'm not the kind of, I'm not so well known that I still can't do my own grocery shopping. I love to cook, I like to go to the market, I like to pick out my shits, you know? Or that you can't, you know what I mean?

We have access to the whole world, you know? And I don't have to worry about anyone giving a shit, you know what I mean? We have access to the whole world, you know? And I don't have to worry about anyone giving a shit, you know what I mean? Or the people that do like it, that come up to me wherever I am in the world, they're usually real fans, they're not celebrity people. So they're like, man, I saw you when you played this song. And that's the other thing about music,

it's like rock music. You know, you can be, you can do a lot of stuff, but you know, one thing about the songs we've written and I meet people, and people play the songs we've written at weddings and at funerals, you know what I mean? Not just parties and not just things, but like, you know, my brother, I wrote, you know,

when we wrote She Talks to Angels, I get, I always have time and I'm always humbled by people's experiences with that song and addiction and things in their lives. Whether it's them, family member, the loss, or people that have overcome things, you know what I mean? And that we just wrote that song one day when we were kids and that means so much to people.

When there's a lot of songs like that in our repertoire that people come up to, I mean, really funny things sometimes. People will pick some song, I'm like, that was your wedding song? I'm like, okay. That's weird. Jealous?

Or more obscure even. Really? You know, like some weird like, this song called Nonfiction, like we walked down the aisle and I'm like, Nonfiction? Really? It's kind of a dark song. Well that's, you're giving out, you know, with music, it's like, it's an art form that changes people's feeling.

When you hear a great song, it literally gives you energy. Completely. It's a drug. It really is. It's like an audio. Exactly the same. I mean, it's maddening to be with me, because this is the only time during this day

that I don't have music on. But you know what I mean? But I listen to French music from the 20s, and I listen to Peruvian cumbias from the 70s, or avant-garde electronic composers, whatever. Or blues and rock and roll and jazz and funk and R&B and whatever. But a lot. Yeah.

Well, that means you're doing the right thing, right? You really love it. I also need it, like you just said, not only just for energy, but like for some soulful connection as well. And, you know, when, especially with, you know, when I was younger, we all suffer from depression and some people have a more acute relationships with that. And some people have a more acute relationships with that. But, you know, if there's a certain melancholy that comes over me, there's only some artists that can I can sail across that deep water with, you know what I mean? To kind of assure me that I'm not the only one.

We're not the only ones that feel this way. We're not the only ones that, you know, life is, life is, that is what it is. You know what I mean? Like, not, no matter how rich you are, no matter how successful you are, no matter who you are, you still have to deal with the ups and downs of it. Absolutely. And I think adversity is the thing that really makes us who we are. You know, it's one thing as like being a father, I'm like, I'm not afraid of the adversity my kids face. As a matter of fact,

that's what I really wanna get to is how, cause what makes us who we are is how we deal with adversity. Mm-hmm. And if you don't deal with any adversity, it's not good. And if you push it onto the table or this or that and... Avoid it. Yeah, then where are you?

You know what I mean? You're lost. And these things are cliches, but the greatest lessons are the hardest ones. You know what I mean? Those are the ones that stick to you the most. Yes, and those are the ones that make you grow. I have a great friend who's in a fantastic band.

They just opened for us. We've been friends. His name is Jim Jones. This band is called the Jim Jones All Stars. He was in a band called The Hypnotics. And we've known each other for 30 years. And he went through really deep heroin addiction in the 90s. And it's funny to talk to him and I love him, you know, he's, but he's like, yeah, man, it was something, it was a lesson. You know what I mean? I'm like, that's a fucking tough lesson and I'm happy you're still here to talk about it. But I love his attitude.

You know what I mean? I love that spirit in people. You know what I mean? That it didn't, you know, I learned from this and I've moved on from this and I don't have any regrets. I don't have any resentment towards this or anger towards about it. And it's no one's doing but my own. That responsibility, take responsibility for stuff, you know, is a big and that's and that's important. I think we see a lot of that gone away, you know what I mean, with people. Every story is different, you know what I mean?

Not everything is the same. What is real and what isn't real between there, that's for everyone to figure out for people. Yeah. But the fact that that can be captured in a song and like you said sort of carry you through These bad moments we realize like other people are experiencing grief hardship depression darkness terrible thoughts of loss and

That's the reason why those songs are so popular It's not like people want to suffer like no there's like something that reson. And anger is a part of that too, you know what I mean? And it's funny, like with the newer music, I'm like, you guys, like the world looks pretty shitty. Aren't you guys pissed a little bit? Or are you just like, no, I'm just gonna get some likes and my pants fit right and my hair is good.

I'm like, okay, I get pop music is light sometimes, but I would like for the young people to, I'd like to see in the art a little more anger. I'd like to see more rock. It's like when I'm looking at music coming up today, there's a great absence of strong new rock bands that seem like rock bands from the past. Guitar, bass.

Yeah. Yes. I mean, God damn it. People still love that music. What the fuck is going on? Yeah. You go see ACDC there at a fucking stadium. Yeah.

You go see Metallica there at a stadium. Yes. So people are going. So what the fuck happened? Where is everybody? I mean, I think it's definitely there. It's just, it's, it's again, I think people for some reason think the music business

is supposed to be the gauge or the, they're just like any other fucking salesman. They always have been. Just because one salesman had a cool taste and one didn't, don't kid yourself. They're not artists, they're salesmen. And there's cool people and not cool people, but they're not, you know what I mean? And I think like, now we live in a time,

and you see it a lot. You see people making comments about it in our industry, about how you're just following. Whereas before, yeah, you had things that were popular, but someone, before, yeah, you had things that were popular, but someone, you know, someone said, fuck, sign the Stooges. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Danny Fields did that, but he had great taste, but he was still a record company guy, the business side of it. Someone, you know what I mean, someone said, sign Suzy and the Banshees or whatever.

Someone said, dude, I mean, Bob Dylan, you didn't know when they made first Bob Dylan record that he'd be 83 years old Bob Dylan today. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people said, don't sign him. He's not marketable. He's not commercial. And you know, that's my thing. I'm looking for still that maverick spirit or somebody who does have the wherewithal and or vision to see that maybe something is a little bit outside the box still could have not just it would have importance and it can be popular as well.

Well, of course, and it always has been that way. The idea that everyone has a short attention span now and we're interested in frivolous things. No, that's not true. That's just still junk food. It's still junk food. And there's still people that like a nice meal. I'm glad you're out there, dude. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed talking to you. We got to talk about a lot of weird stuff. Yes, sir. Thank you very much. Cheers.

Bye, everybody.