The Joe Rogan Experience - #2195 - Andrew Huberman

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

Andrew Huberman, PhD, is a neuroscientist and tenured professor at Stanford University’s School of Medicine. Andrew is also the host of the Huberman Lab podcast, which aims to help viewers and listeners improve their health with science and science-based tools. New episodes air every Monday on YouTube and all podcast platforms.  www.hubermanlab.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Need more hot takes? Head to the FanDuel Sportsbook app. They've got more ways to bet, more ways to win, and more ways to cash out quick. You can cook up same-game parlays on any MLB or soccer game all in one place, not to mention golf, tennis, and more. Download FanDuel and get more from North America's number one sportsbook. Please play responsibly. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connexontario.ca the Joe Rogan experience Mr. Huberman how are you sir good to see you good to see you so what were you just saying about dog breeds that like we're good. Mr. Huberman, how are you, sir? Good to see you. Good to see you. So what were you just saying about dog breeds

that like we're talking about Carl, like the little bulldog breeds have more mastiff than wolf? Yeah, so- So mastiff is a different thing? Well, so- Don't they all come from wolves? Yeah, they all originate from wolves,

but then dog selection has been twofold, mainly for phenotype like morphology, the shape we call it, and then temperament, right? So there's this chart, it might be a little hard to find online, about the dosing of wolf versus mastiff genetics, essentially. And there's a bunch of other things woven into dog genetics.

First of all, cool point, dogs are among, I don't know if they are the most, maybe whales are the most, but they are among the greatest variation in body size within a given species. You think of Chihuahua and Great Guinea, and it looks like it's dosing of the genes controlling IGF-1,

which makes sense, growth hormone, but kind of wild, right? We got some big humans and some smaller humans, but not like dogs not like dogs and then why was and then what are those enormous? Shepherd dogs those what are those ones those insane dogs? They used to fight off wolves What the fuck are those things called those? Gigantic hairy things you know I'm talking about we've talked about them before they're terrifying looking dogs. Yeah, I mean just it what's it called My goodness. Oh, yeah, those things. What the fuck is that thing? What is that called again?

But we've we've seen it before That doesn't say the name of the dog. Well find the name of those dogs because there's Brian Callan knows all this shit. So I have a colleague at Stanford Sue McConnell who Joe Joe Joe Joe dogs. No that's not it. There's a name for them though.

Tibetan Mastiff Tibetan Mastiff. Tibetan Mastiff. Yeah. They're really furry and they're like 250 pounds. Look at that puppy. That's seven weeks old. That's so crazy. Wonder how many they have in the litter. How could they have very many? Yeah, it's gotta be just a few.

Poor, poor mama. So this colleague at Stanford, Sue McConnell, she's won best in show at some of the big events for poolies. She breeds horses and she's into that whole- What's a poolie? The poolies are the ones that look like Rastafarian dogs. You know, their eyes are covered.

They're amazing. They're amazing. And she had this chart on her door. I was going to meet with her about something. She handles a lot of undergraduate education at Stanford. And I see this chart and the chart essentially shows the dosing of kind of the original wolf line genes versus more mastiff heavy genetic background.

And there are a lot of breeds on this chart, but it essentially shows up in the following way. The dogs that are more sight and scent, right? And with longer snouts. Like a shepherd. Like a shepherd have more, have dosing of the wolf gene still in them. Then you get to the shorter snout,

kind of snub nose like the French bulldog, the English bulldog and some mastiff breeds, pugs, right? And the amount of wolf in them is like nil to none. And then what's happened- But wait a minute, but they all start off as wolves. So they have some genes that relate to the wolf origin lineage, right? But over time they've been bred,

for instance, the English Bulldog. But all dogs originally come from wolves. Yes, that's my understanding as well. Even mastiffs. That's right, that's my understanding. But then as they were crossbred with different dogs, right? So for instance, like the English Bulldog, that line came from the crossing of essentially pug,

like short snout, right? But with mastiff, with mastiffs or with dogs with heavy mastiff genetic dosing, why? Well, the idea was the short snout gives them a good lever for holding onto things, right? And the mastiff genes lead to, and we know this for sure, both the droopiness of the face, it also relates to less presence of pain receptors

in the front of the body. Okay, so if you've ever had a bulldog where you know their feet can be really sensitive, but their face, you can hold onto those jowls. My bulldog, Costello, would go picking up stuff at the beach and he'd occasionally get a fish hook in his mouth and it looked super painful and he's like, oh. You know, so not very many pain sensors in the face.

They have a disruption or mutation in the gene that controls the elasticity of skin. That's why they have the droopiness. And they are a brachycephalic short snout. That's why they're not very good breathers and they essentially have sleep apnea. That's why they have a bunch of rubs. Okay.

They snore like a motherfucker. They do, so they do snore a lot. I can attest. Like Carl does. It's crazy. And so what were dogs being selected for? Well, unless you're showing dogs, dogs were selected for the kind of work

they were capable of doing, like sheep dogs or great herders, this kind of thing. But when people essentially designed, bred up and cross-bred to get the English Bulldog or the Old English Bulldog, which doesn't have as much of an underwrite. So I had an Old English Bulldog. So whereas the English Bulldog is elbows out,

so inward rotation, the thing we're all supposed to not do, an underwrite. The Old English Bulldog looks like this. It looks more like a pit bull. Looks more like a pit bull. And they were originally used for bull baiting, for grabbing onto the nose of the bull, getting the bull super aggressive,

and then being able to let go and get called off and coming back to their protector. And then basically then it was to rile up the bull, right? For bull fighting. So you can still find some of this stuff online. You can find some old descriptions, in some cases, even some old videos. But of course now bull baiting with dogs is not allowed,

right? Dog fighting everybody looks down on. But then if you start asking about the toy breeds, what were the toy breeds, quote unquote, designed for or bred for? They were basically designed to sit next to you. Some of them will seek out, you know, like the terrier breeds will find vermin, right?

They'll go find rats. They're really good ratters actually. Jack Russells are great. Jack Russells are great ratters. The West Highland Terriers, the Westies, the Cairn Terriers, they're always, they're really great hunters for little things, right? And the amazing thing is that

when you start looking at the different breeds, it was basically human selecting on the basis of mostly behavior and phenotype shape and thinking, oh, like I want a smaller dog that will just sit near me, or I want a small dog that will like kill rats and sit near me. No, I want a smaller dog that will just sit near me or I want a small dog that will like kill rats and sit near me. No, I want a big dog that's going to guard. So you start breeding for pain tolerance.

I start breeding for loyalty and aggression. And a guy that I think was on your podcast a long time ago, Sam Sheridan. Yeah. Yeah, in a fighter's heart, there's a great chapter where he talks about, I think it's dog fighting in the Philippines. And he talks about how brutal that sport is,

which indeed it is. But he talks about the love between the owner and the dog can predict, and of course the dog and the owner, it's reciprocal, one presumes, that the strength of that relationship predicts how hard the dog will fight for the owner. And he uses this as kind of a parallel construction for why, and you tell me if this is true or not,

that many of the fatalities in boxing were the consequence of sure 15 round as opposed to 12 round fights, but also when the corner man or the coach was the parent. And so it gets into this very complicated psychology. I actually think that's a really terrific book because I think it speaks to a lot of really interesting aspects of bonding between humans,

bonding in that case between animals and humans. Of course, dog fighting, like, I don't know if there are many things that people look down upon as much as they look down upon dog fighting, but he speaks to the relationship between the dog and the owner as a loving one, which was super surprising to me.

Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent, but I don't know, maybe it's possible to find that chart. I don't want to send you on a ridiculous expedition, but if you just say, so genes- That's a simple one. That's a simple one. Okay. This one, the one I'm thinking about is a vertical one

that was in Science Magazine or Scientific American, but it's wild. Again, I don't want to send you on a, on an expedition that has us paused, but. Yeah, sorry about that. No worries, but it's just, we get a rough understanding of it all. Yeah. So, so now when I see like, okay, like a collie,

like I see a collie down there, I think long snouts, so probably has a better nose than a mastiff breed. You can ask an owner, how good is their vision? Are they a sight hound or a scent hound? And of course they're both, but some dogs like, I'm really interested now in part because of you and Cam Haynes and others about dogs that hunt or go on hunts and like the coon hound breeds are amazing.

I've always wanted a red bone coon hound. Their ears waft up smell. That's why they're so long. I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, the reason why they have those long floppy ears is as they're running, their ears are wafting up smell

and it gives them a better sense of the chase. Oh, amazing. I read this incredible description of why dog scent and sense of smell is so much better than ours. There's a guy named Noam Sobol who's been on my podcast, he's over in Israel, who claims that human olfaction is just as good as dog olfaction. But how do they outdo us?

The frequency of sniffs. And this is really cool. You know those little notches on the side of the nose, like our nostrils look more or less symmetric. They have those little notches. They create little vortices for the dog so that the scent stick around. They're actually getting longer exposure to a scent. So when they, they're getting something like 10 or 20 X the exposure to the scent in the

olfactory bulb and are able to assess both directionality. They can do right nostril, left nostril. They can sense odor plumes to steer in one direction or another. But Noam has done these crazy experiments when he was back at Berkeley, where he had people's hands mitted, eyes covered, so they can't sense touch, they can't see,

everything's covered and they can follow a scent of chocolate buried seven inches below the ground. What? Yes. And you can see this. This you can find if you say tracking, sorry, Jamie, my goal wasn't to come here and send you on these.

These people have a nose like Ari Shaffir? Oh boy. Or Adrian Brody. Oh my. If you say kind of Berkeley chocolate tracking Sobel or something like that, it should come up. So he would do these aerial views of these people tracking these scents on the ground.

And it turns out people are really good at this. They can track a scent. Yeah. And if you- Sniffers show that humans can track scents and that two nostrils are better than one. Okay. So if you, but if you go images, I think you'll probably-

Chocolate scent through the grass. Yeah, if you go images, and then I'll lay off the Google. They will attract scents. So if you go to images, damn it, and you just say Berkeley, just say, there it is. Right, so they compared the tracking of a scent hound,

of a blood hound to human tracking of a scent buried in the case of the blood hound, it wasn't buried. So that person, what do they have a mask on? Yeah, they got a mask on, their hands are covered with thick gloves. They can only use, the only thing exposed are their nostrils. And there, but that line,

that yellow line is not a line with a bunch of chocolate on it. It's buried below the surface. I always thought it was above. And then when I talked to Nomi, he said, no, no, they buried the chocolate scent and people were able to track it like a hunting dog tracks a pheasant.

Well, how do they bury it if it's grass? I think they cut a trench and then they covered it up. Oh, wow. So he insists that this thing that you see in all the textbooks, which is that humans have, you know, like one thousandth or something of the number of olfactory receptors, that's total bullshit.

Really? Total bullshit. In fact, our friend, who by the way, wanted me to say, hello, Rick Rubin, turned to a good friend of mine, who's the chair of neurosurgery of a major medical school department, not Stanford, I promise, and said, what percentage of the things in medical textbooks, okay, this is Rick asking,

this chair of neurosurgery, okay, what percentage of things that you find in medical textbooks, basic and advanced, do you think are false based on your understanding of what we actually know now compared to when the textbooks were written? And he said, 50%. And then Rick said, and yep.

And then Rick said, I was wide-eyed too. And then Rick said, and what is the extent of impact on treatment of patients modern day? And his answer was one word, incalculable. Oh my God, 50% wrong. 50% in currently used medical textbooks. Meaning that the literature has been updated It's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just,

it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, senses of smell that are many times stronger than a bloodhound's and famously can smell people

from a hundred, 200 yards away. Like there's gotta be levels to it. And I just can't imagine that a bloodhound doesn't have a better sense of smell than a person. Right, so they absolutely have a better sense of smell under the definition that they use it, they use the same number of receptors differently. In other words, the resolution of your vision

and a mouse's vision is dramatically different. The resolution of your vision is very sharp at the fovea towards the center of your eye, and actually towards the periphery, anyone can just do this. You wiggle your fingers out here in the periphery and you can't see any detail, right? As you move that forward, you can see detail, okay?

So, and that's because the density of pixels, so to speak, in the retina is much, much higher near the fovea, near the center than it is at the periphery, okay? So what he's saying, what Nalm Sobel's laboratory has found and others have found is that the number of pixels, the potential for olfactory resolution in humans and in bloodhounds is essentially the same.

This is his argument, but the bloodhounds sniff much more. So it's the equivalent of having their eyes open much more, right, in the exam, so to speak. They have these vortices that are created by the structure of their nose and nostrils. So they have longer exposure. And in the case of the bear, for instance, I don't know nose and nostrils, so they have longer exposure. And in the case of the bear, for instance, I don't know how many olfactory receptors they have

relative to a human or a bloodhound, but that the bear is likely spending a lot more time and can pull more air perhaps, I don't know, but is using the mechanical aspects of the olfactory system differently. In fact, and here's, now I'm recalling the experiment that led to this conclusion that humans have exceptional olfaction,

which is that there's a particular compound that when introduced to a swimming pool, people can detect a difference in the smell of the water at a dilution that is outrageously small. Like skunk spray. Like skunk spray. Forgive me because I'm not remembering the name of the chemical,

but he said you can essentially add a drop of this to a swimming pool and then people can smell the difference between the water. And so his argument is not that humans are walking around sensing all these smells consciously as well as a bloodhound or as well as a bear, but that we have a tremendous capacity for olfaction that the chocolate tracking experiment exemplifies,

but it requires some removal of our most dominant sense, vision, and hearing our second most dominant sense, and in that case, tactile orientation as well. And so the idea is that we have an amazing olfactory apparatus. In fact, he makes the argument, and there's evidence for the fact

that as soon as people meet, and they've done these beautiful experiments, people meet, they shake hands, and the next thing they do, they tend to, within about a minute, they wipe the scent of the other person on their face, typically. I guess I wasn't paying attention to this. And they don't realize it?

People don't realize this. They just do it subconsciously? Yeah. So, mercaptans, also known as as the old how do you say that the old? Sulfur containing organic compounds with a strong unpleasant owner. They're colorless and yellows liquids. It can be flammable Mercaptans are found in nature and in living organisms as a waste product of metabolism and in oil and gas They're also present in certain foods such as some nuts and cheese and in decaying organic matter and marshes.

Right, so we're probably sensitive to the odors that matter. That can kill us. That can kill us. He also has this idea that I think is starting to take hold in real data that we are constantly sensing our own odor plumes that we smell ourselves a lot of times per day.

That's actually very normal behavior. There are all sorts of ways people do that that nobody talks about. But- Yeah, you like check a sniff. People check their sniff. And it's an indication of hormone status, immune status.

When you have babies or puppies, like you're looking at like, oh, is a good poop or a bad poop? You're also paying it people, some people will smell the poop. I'm not a proponent of that. But we're constantly sensing the scent and taste of, for instance, our partner saliva, right?

Actually, an ex-girlfriend of mine wrote to me recently. I don't know what this question represented, but she said, "'Do you think that when you become unattracted to somebody, "'the taste of their mouth becomes bad to you "'or the other way around?' When you become unattracted to them? I guess she might've been dating somebody

and like maybe it had fallen out of favor and she was kind of not attracted and she was sort of noting that- The taste of their mouths- Their mouths no longer, like it tasted kind of aversive now as opposed to before. I bet that's in your mind. I bet you don't like them anymore.

Cause if you're really in love with someone, you don't even care if they have bad breath. You still want to kiss them. That's true too. Cause you just love them. You don't care. That. Because if you're really in love with someone, you don't even care if they have bad breath. You still want to kiss them. That's true, because you just love them. You don't care. Yeah, that's true, too. You don't care if they smell. You don't care. You just you love them. But if they're gross, and then they smell you like, right, fucking stinky asshole. This this is a mule deer skull. So this is not as

extreme as an elk, but you get a look at the internal, if you look inside of that and you see, cause they can wind you from a hundred yards away easy. So see this spongy stuff, I don't know if they can see it on video, there's this spongy stuff there. That's something called the cribriform plate.

The cribriform plate is a bunch of Swiss cheese, like thin bone and the olfactory neurons, which basically sit like right behind the back of your nostrils, they send axons, their little wire-like connections back into the brain. And when somebody gets hit hard on the head, that cribriform plate shears it, and that's why people become anosmic. They lose their sense of smell.

Yeah, look at that picture. Now what's amazing about the olfactory neurons is that they are among the very few neurons in the human and other mammalian nervous system that regenerates throughout the lifespan. So there's a little area of your hippocampus where there's some neurons that everyone makes a big deal of that frankly don't do a lot to regenerate

throughout the lifespan, so-called neurogenesis, new neurons, but the olfactory neurons, even though they're central central nervous system neuron, just like your retinal neuron or your cerebral cortex, they can regenerate throughout the entire lifespan. And they do, every time someone takes a head hit or there's some shearing off of these axons, excuse me, they regenerate.

Now, under conditions like, we saw this a lot during COVID where people were complaining about loss of smell. We see this when people age. Some people are thinking that loss of smell may be a correlate, not the cause, but obviously, but a correlate of age-related cognitive decline, dementia, and Alzheimer's, things like that. There are a few things.

Actually, I think I recommended it to a couple of friends of ours. Now, there's very little data on this, but I will say, and I'll catch heat for this, but these days I catch heat anyway, so I don't care. There are good data, in my opinion, small amount of data, but let's call it decent enough data to explore that alpha lipoic acid at 600 milligrams per day

during the time when you're starting to lose your smell might rescue some of that smell. So if someone's getting COVID and they start to lose your smell might rescue some of that smell. So if someone's getting COVID and they start to lose their sense of smell. Or any viral infection where they are losing the sense of smell. What other viral infections cause a loss of sense of smell? Well, anything that clogs the sinuses certainly,

but there are influenza viruses that do this. Now I know as we're saying this, that some people would say, in fact, Noam Sobel told me that he felt that the data about alpha lipoic acid were kind of on the weak side, but when people are losing their sense of smell and taste, it's really scary. I mean, it's one of those things where, you know,

you kind of feel like so much of pleasure in life, unbeknownst to us is- Yeah, especially with food. Oh, I'll never forget when I got a viral infection and I took and I lost my sense of smell and I ate a handful of blueberries, which I love. And it just tasted like bags of water. I was like, oh goodness.

Like I don't, there are worse things in life. Was it COVID that you lost your smell with? It was, and I did the smell training, which has also been shown to work because these olfactory neurons, this is amazing. Their survival is activity dependent. They require electrical activity driven by sniffing and smelling.

It is true that the behavioral tool of taking a lemon and really just like getting it close to that nostril and just really trying to get whatever little whiff of lemon you can and then taking your coffee and getting that little whiff of coffee, whatever little remnants of smell that you can get in there has been shown to improve the survival and eventually the durability of not just the olfactory neurons, but scent.

In other words, the behavioral training works. There are, the alpha-lipoic acid thing is debated. The thing about alpha-lipoic acid is diabetics and people with blood sugar issues probably shouldn't take it. They can kind of reduce blood sugar a little bit. But when I had that happen, lost my sense of smell, I was like, listen, I want my smell back.

So I took 600 milligrams of alpha lipoic acid and I was doing the scent training. I was like sniffing lemons, sniffing coffee, sniffing Parmesan cheese, sniffing anything that was pungent that I could recognize. And my smell came back in a couple of days, but then again, I don't know, cause I didn't run the control experiment,

whether or not it would have come back anyway. Is it only positive smells or what about if you use smelling salts or something like really intense? Well, smelling salts I've never used, but- Uh oh, well guess what? Do we have some? We've got some right here. I'd be willing to try.

Are they legal before I do something illegal? Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, these are totally legal. All right, I'll give it a shot. These are the one, this is Ah. Jamie's laughing. This is Jujumufu, This is a juju Mufu It was a real athletic freak who uses these we I don't know him but shout out to him

Okay, this is the strongest shit. We have ever tried. I will just this one sealed to so yeah I'll just do a little I'll just try a little are you gonna get all up in there? Come on. This is like the cold plunge. This is I got a funny story about the cold plunge to tell you later But uh that relates to you, but we'll get to that in a moment But you're about to get your mind blown here son So this stuff is so strong that it's sealed in this bag is it gonna kill my olfactory neurons? No, you'll be fine it's so strong that even though it's sealed in this bag, I have to rip this bag open and

Oh my god damn my hands are slippery to rip this bag open and oh my god damn my hands are slippery okay it's so strong that I've broken the seal of this bag just slightly look it's still kind of sealed yeah look you could smell it through the bag let's try the gnome just give a sniff oh yeah yeah right okay this bag is still sealed I haven't even cut the bag yet so as somebody who had a laboratory with Just give a sniff. Oh yeah, yeah. Right? Okay. This bag is still sealed. I haven't even cut the bag yet. So as somebody who had a laboratory with chemicals in it for a long time,

now we run clinical trials on humans, but so no more chemicals in my lab. Okay, now take a sniff. You learned to waft it. You learned to- The bottle. The bottle is sealed. Oh, it's not even out of the thing. No.

Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bottle's still sealed. Oh, this is just the beginning. You know when you go to a park and you go into a public bathroom in a park that has a pool nervous Yeah, I'm getting nervous I'm no Elon Musk, but I saw what happens when people do substances Oh, that was legal in the state of California, and I think everybody's getting a lot out a little out of hand

You're like we're down here in Texas, So okay. Now again, this is totally legal. Now what you're going to do here is take this. Isn't it amazing that the word legal when said fast sounds like illegal? Yeah, legal. And then you go, wait, what did you say? It's totally legal. And vice versa, right?

Yeah. All right, so what do I do? Unscrew the cap. Oh look, it's my initials. Ah, unscrew the cap. All right. Put it about six inches from your nose, take a big sniff, get in there. All right. Unscrew the cap. Oh look, it's my initials. Ah. Unscrew the cap. Alright. Put it about six inches from your nose, take a big sniff.

Get in there. Alright. Oh! Yeah, baby! Let's go. Now imagine if you had COVID. Wait, wait. Wait, hold on, let me just kind of experience that for a second.

Yeah, take it in. I'm gonna have to do something else too. Well, you know what's interesting? Or it wouldn't be fair. You know what's interesting? Oh! Oh man. The fresh wouldn't be fair. You know what's interesting? Here we go. Oh! The fresh ones are so powerful. I feel it in my eye because the sinuses run.

Oh, now I would imagine if you had COVID, you could smell it over there, huh? I imagine if you had COVID and you lost your sense of smell, like this might be the key to getting it back. As long as it's not killing olfactory neurons. I don't think it's killing it. You can smell everything after it. I mean- That's true.

I'm obviously biased. Cause I like that thrill for whatever reason. I actually enjoyed that. Thank you. We have in the green room of the mothership. You prompted me to take several new experiences that we can talk about. But one other thing before I forget,

I know I go down these like nerdy rabbit holes here, but when I did the smelling salts a moment ago, I sniffed with both nostrils, but it came in mainly through my left nostril. And so I asked Noma Sobol, what's the deal with this left nostril, right nostril stuff? You know, you have the yogis, the switching of the nostril things.

Here's what's wild. This is so wild. It turns out that every two hours or so, the dominant breathing nostril switches. Now, that could be interesting or that could not be interesting, right? There are a lot of things in biology that happen, but like, what is the meaning?

Turns out it's a direct reflection of a shift in your so-called autonomic nervous system from parasympathetic dominant to sympathetic dominant, meaning from more relaxed to more alert. And this is happening periodically throughout the day, like a seesaw, and during sleep. So this whole thing with the yogis of, you know, breathe through one nostril or the other nostril,

look, the olfactory bulbs, there's a lot of crossing over of information at later stages and even some early stages once the information gets to the brain. So that whole thing is probably a little bit like weak sauce but this idea that you're breathing easier through one nostril or the other is reflecting an underlying brain state and body state.

That is absolutely true, he tells me. And the last thing is you said, why would bears or bloodhounds have such better smell? Well, in the case of a bear, the size of the olfactory bulbs and the amount of brain real estate devoted to processing that information is much more. So we have a huge visual cortex.

Most of our brain, frankly, is devoted to vision and to movement. Whereas, you know, the brain of a, let me think of like a turtle, it's mostly movement. They have very low cerebral cortex. Maybe that's not the best example, but certainly in a scent hound, the olfactory bulbs are much bigger

than they are in a sight hound. And both of those have olfactory bulbs that are much, much bigger than Jamie's bulldog over there. Those guys sniff all the time, but they're mostly snorting trying to get scents in. Their sense of smell is much, much worse than Marshall's,dog over there. Those guys sniff all the time, but they're mostly snorting trying to get sense in. Their sense of smell is much, much worse than Marshall's, than your dog. Because Marshall's a retriever.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense, cause he can smell his ball. Like if I throw his ball and he misses it, he just starts doing a circle and then he finds it with his smell, which is crazy. Yeah. Smells his ball, you know? Yeah. Yeah., I'm incredible.

So what Nome is saying is not that humans have smell that is as good, but that when you push the conditions, you can reveal a heightened sense of smell that most people don't think humans have. Now, as I say this, there are a lot of people out there and it's usually women who are like, oh no, I can smell everything. I can smell the subtlest difference.

And so it may be something related to maternal behavior. It might be something related to estrogen. It might be something in the Y chromosome that suppresses that. We don't know, but some people are very olfactory. They can smell when somebody's not feeling right or when they're not feeling right. But it's absolutely the case

that we're constantly taking the chemicals off other people through shaking hands, through hugging, rubbing them on ourselves, analyzing our own smells unconsciously. I always say that I can smell bullshit. You probably can. But I don't know if I really can smell it, but when someone's lying, I feel like there's a smell.

There could be the stress. It could be a certain, you know, we talk about stress as one thing, but stress is the dosing of different levels of cortisol, epinephrine, people that are pathological liars, they can probably do it without evoking those things. Then you have things like pupil size, bigger the pupils, more arousal, right?

The more stressed somebody is, right? We know this, right? That's why, like if somebody takes a stimulant, the pupils would get huge. There's a thing that people do when they're full of shit where they're anticipating your response in a different way. Like when someone's telling the truth,

like if you tell me the truth, you seem relaxed to my response. Like you're telling, even if it's something that you're not proud of, you're telling me the truth, this is the thing. When someone's lying, it's almost like they're waiting to see how you buy it. So it's like their defenses are up.

They're counterpunched quick. Well, they're selling it. They say it and they're like, does he buy it. So it's like their defenses are up. They're counterpunched quick. Well, they're selling it. They say it and they're like, does he buy it? Like you feel the does he buy it? And like, ooh, you're full of shit. Oh, interesting. You know what I'm saying? Let me think about this.

So you are able to sense the, their anticipation of your response. It's like they've got queued up some counter, some evaluating where you're, whether you're going yes, no, or maybe. Yeah, but it's not reliable. Like I just speak to be completely honest, I've been bullshitted before, but I think I'm better at it than most.

And I think maybe that's because I've had more conversations with people than most people have, but it's not 100%. Sometimes people are full of shit and you're not sure or you have your defenses down. I mean, I've been badly, badly manipulated before. Yeah, it happens. Yeah, it happens. Especially if you like someone,

that's part of the problem. You don't want them to be full of shit. Yeah, and some of the best manipulators, certainly in my experience, are people that have really figured out the combination lock of the things that I have felt deprived of and they come in. And those tend to be unique things,

that you can't get out anywhere. And boy, somebody said to me recently, there are certain categories of humans that I just, I can't be seduced by. I'm not talking about just sexual seduction, right? But I'm saying it just can't be seduced by. I'm not talking about just sexual seduction, right? But you know, I'm saying that it just can't be seduced by. And then there, some people just are able to get past that force field.

And so I consider myself pretty good at threat sensing, except in that domain, where like my threat sensing is like the equivalent of a stuffed animal. My friend Tony always says that erotic and psychotic are so close to each other that, you know, like it crosses over back and forth. And I think there's something to that, too, that some of the craziest people are also

some of the sexiest people for some weird reason. Like, you want to be with them even though you know they're dangerous, like they're crazy. Like, there's some weird thing going on there. Almost like you want wild kids because wild kids could survive better. That's an interesting one.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, I think that the, well, I'm listening to a really good book that a really smart person suggested to me called Five Types of People That Will Ruin Your Life. And I only wish I had read it years ago. And here's the main takeaway that there are about 10% of people out there

and it cuts across all the standard labels of like narcissists and borderline and all that. Like they include some of that, but they depart from that and they just focus on what, there's a guy who's a psychologist, it's written by a guy who's a psychologist, he's worked a lot on conflict resolution over the years, courtroom type stuff, et cetera.

And he says, in this 10% of people, they are high conflict people, but within they like conflict, they feed off it. They like drama, they like conflict, they like creating it. But within that category, it's pretty evenly divided, he claims, between women and men. And then there's a further division where about half of them play passive and victim,

but are highly manipulative. They use other people to try and basically harm. And then the other 5% are very like aggressive and abrasive. And so he has this great set of protocols. I love protocols that are essentially like, don't move in with, marry or get engaged to, or have a child with somebody in the first year. And this cuts in both directions.

Just don't make that agreement in year one. As well as for any behavior that kind of cues those senses, gets your spidey senses up, like you were describing, ask yourself, would 90% or more of people do that behavior? And if it's a no, like you have to pause. In other words, what he's saying in this book is that most people are actually pretty healthy, but that most of the woes of the world

are created by about 10% of people, which he calls these high conflict people, but they don't always come out high conflict like screaming and yelling. They're often very tactical and manipulative and very vindictive. They'll leverage victimhood, they'll leverage a lot of different things.

And again, cuts across men and women equally, he claims. And again, I don't know the data behind this book, but the book itself just feels like a very useful thing that everybody should know about. So I'm enjoying reading this book going, oh my God, I wish I had this book years ago. Plus, realizing like, oh yeah, like we always hear this. Like most of our problems come from a very small set

of people and things. And most of society's problems. And so who are these people? So we tend to call them narcissists or sociopaths or psycho, you know, but those labels, while very useful in the clinic, I think have been overused in the general public. And like, we're not clinicians.

We're not diagnosing anybody. And so, but difficult people that can ruin your life abound, but it turns out it's only about 10%. So, and it has some very specific protocols of how to deal with the people who are more outwardly aggressive versus play victim, et cetera. Very useful book. I think it's, yeah.

It sucks that you have to think that way though. Can't you just enjoy someone? Enjoy their company? If they're in the 90%. Yeah, but that's the problem. You can zig when you should have zagged and you run into a 10% or- Take a year.

Yeah, but a year's a long time though. Also people can learn like what you tolerate and don't tolerate and hide certain types of behavior from you. Yes. Yeah, which can be a real issue. Oh, I've definitely experienced that. And again, I think we are often,

I mean, you mentioned that the relationship between erotic and manipulative and crazy, or just erotic and crazy. I think there's also that when we finally receive the sorts of, I don't know, love or affection, it's not always sex, it's not always sexual, right? Like somebody like, I don't know, like rubbing your feet or paying, you know, paying a little extra attention to what you say

or something, for some people, that's intoxicating. A lot of it is paying attention to you. A lot of it is like listening to what you have to say or asking you questions about your thoughts and your feelings, which a lot of people are unaccustomed to. And that's intoxicating to people. Because a lot of people just wanna talk about themselves. So when someone wants to talk about you

and really is asking questions about your feelings, you know, that can kind of manipulate you in a weird way. Yeah, it almost feels like a parental type of care that we're probably wired to look for. I mean, I always marvel at this and also just kind of shake my head and go, why, why did God design us this way? But, you know, the circuitry in our brain

that creates infant child attachment is the same circuitry that is repurposed for all other relationships in adulthood. It's not like you get your childhood attachment stuff and then you go, okay, well, you're like 15, 16, you're moving on in the world, you're hitting puberty, you're starting to date a bit, whatever. Now let's work with a different set of mechanics,

a different set of algorithms. No, it's the same set of algorithms repurposed. We know this based on the studies of infant parent attachment and on the basis or infant caretaker and on the basis of studies of romantic love. It's the same circuitry. So you're using a set of algorithms and circuitry

that were designed for one thing in a very different context. That's interesting and it's probably makes sense why a lot of men with like very overbearing mothers seek overbearing wives. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've learned so much recently about just how it is that, you know, I've learned so much recently

about just how it is that, you know, we can lose our vision of like other people, right? Like we, and I think this thing that we hear like manipulation, it often sounds like, oh, it's like really like tactical. Someone's rubbing their hands. I think the really tricky part about it is I do think that most people in the world

are just like doing their best to feel safe, to get their needs met. I think there are very few evil people, but in this sort of pattern of repurposing childhood attachment patterns, and then people bringing that forward into their adult attachment patterns, I think what ends up happening is that,

people quote unquote trying to get their needs met, oftentimes like the worst ones, sometimes it's called trauma bonding, but they kind of go lock and key or somebody identifies somebody that's really healthy and they're like, them, I'm going to latch onto them because like they're healthy. And you'd say, well, the healthy person

should be able to spot all the landmines. But if somebody is able to really tap into like something you didn't have or something that just feels like oxygen, right? Goodness gracious, like you could be the smartest, most well acclimated person with the best parents or whatever upbringing, which most people aren't, but some people do have that and still fall kind of

into this fog that is like, gosh, like you want to be with this person, but it doesn't feel good, that mishmash. And I think the thing I've learned clearly is that when you feel that trepidation, run, don't walk. Like it's not like the gray zone is actually the thing to just exit fast. Gray doesn't mean like hover and check it out

and like run some experiments here. A ticking bomb. Get out. Yeah, yeah. Run. Just run. Yeah. Just run. It's also, I think there's some people

that are very sheltered and they've been well taken care of and they're not accustomed to manipulative people and they're not accustomed to dangerous people. And so they don't know. I've seen that before, both with people choosing the wrong friends and people choosing the wrong partners. Yeah, that certainly hasn't been my pattern.

Not that I had the hardest upbringing, but it was, I always say, easier than some, harder than others. But I always had great friends, great friendships. But my threat sensing, it wasn't always great in romantic relationships, for sure. I've also had some great relationships. I think what tends to happen is that if we're very busy,

we have this tendency to be easily manipulated by certain things that are unusual that we just that really feel like extra oxygen to us or just feel so nourishing. And because I think people always will often default to sex, like it's all about sex. Depending on who you are, like sex is either more or less readily available to you.

Like I think that for some people it's nurturing, like a certain form of nurturing. And then there's also this thing of, we know how to survive certain things so they don't feel as dangerous. So people who've had like very, overbearing or complicated childhoods or abusive childhoods,

sometimes they're set to perceive danger at way too high a threshold, right? So their perception of what's dangerous is like way too high. And so they walk into even still dangerous situations but they don't think of them as dangerous. And they're like, oh, I can navigate this. They're good at navigating difficult people or they're good at navigating borderline people

or something like that. I think it's also exciting, which is part of the problem. Is that people like excitement. And if you have a boring life and a life that doesn't have a lot of stimulation in it, and then you find someone, even if they're bad for you, but they're exciting, there's some conflict, some something. There's fights and breakups and then make-ups,

which are exciting. And so then you get locked into this stimulation pattern, which is, I've seen that multiple times with people. It's a real problem. Do you think it's more of a problem with people that like excitement and adventure and are super curious, but like excitement and adventure? So I'm thinking comics,

I'm thinking people who like high intensity sports that they seek relationships that are higher intensity because, you know, I've received great advice from people like Rick who said, you know, your relationship should be a sanctuary. That should be where peace is, you know? And actually I don't pay a lot of attention to Instagram kind of little mottos and things,

but someone sent me one that I was like, yes, that feels so true, which is that men eventually settle where they feel peace. Yeah, I think that's probably the healthiest way to do it, but I think people like, like I said, I think people like stimulation. And I don't think a lot of people are stimulated by their day-to-day existence. I think they're bored.

I think a lot of people are just like trud their day-to-day existence. I think they're bored. I think a lot of people are just like trudging along every day. And then when someone comes along that makes you excited in your life, you know, someone who's just a little wilder, a little crazier, and maybe some lady's got a bunch of tattoos, like look at her, you know, like, whoa.

You know, people get excited by people that are a little bit dangerous. Because- It's this idea that anything could, like anything could happen. They could do anything. They're risky people, you know? Someone's got tattoos on their hands.

Like Jesus, what is she doing? Yeah, you and I both have a lot of tattoos, but I've intentionally kept it off the hands and neck and face. I thought about doing it on my hands, but the face is a real problem. Like that's a little wacky. But I have a lot of friends, like Jelly Roll's a good friend of mine.

He's got tattoos all over his face. Post Malone, good friend of mine. I think he Jelly Roll's a good friend of mine. He's got tattoos all over his face. Post Malone, good friend of mine. I think if they're a musician. He's got a bunch of written shit all over his face. Yeah, I mean, they're the nicest people. The thing about like Jelly Roll and Post is like, once you talk to them, once you're talking to them, you don't see the tattoos anymore.

You just see the human. You know, it's just like they're wearing a shirt. It's like, no, it's nothing. You know, it's normal. And things have changed a lot. Like I was born in 75, right? So I'm heading towards 50 quick. Back then, tattoos on the face was crazy.

Oh, my, one of my childhood heroes, and somehow by the grace of God, he's become a close friend of mine. It's Tim Armstrong, lead singer from Rancey. Has a tattoo of a spiderweb on his head and a spider on his neck. And I remember seeing him when I was a kid at a show and being like, that dude's scary. And Lars Fredricksen from Rancey says, skunks on his head and a spider on his neck. And I remember seeing him when I was a kid at a show and be like, that dude's scary.

And Lars Fredricksen from Rancid says skunks on his forehead. They're super nice guys. I mean, they're- Travis Barker's a super nice guy. Yeah, Tim and Travis do the transplants. Yeah, Tim and Travis do transplants. And like, you see those guys, you're like, well, now I think it shifted a little bit.

But back then I remember thinking like, that's gnarly, that's a tough guy. Yeah. And certainly Lars is a tough guy and Tim too. But the, I remember seeing it, like you only saw it on bikers and gnarly punk rockers. People that had checked out of society completely. Mohawk used to be, you're not getting a job.

Right, yeah. A nose ring used to, remember when a nose ring or an eyebrow ring covered, you go into Starbucks and the person would have it covered up, you know, like, because they weren't allowed to have it. Right, right, right. Now it's like a prerequisite. Now I see medical students with eyebrow rings

and nose rings and stuff. So things have definitely changed. Yeah, we're a little bit more open-minded decorations, but it is a thing though, that you're taking a giant ass chance by tattooing your hands. Well, a friend of mine who's admittedly is a psychologist said, you know, tattoos are largely an expression

of what you feel on the inside put to the outside. And I was like, that sounds good. Yeah, it's like- Sorta. Yeah. I don't know. It's just art. I like art.

I like art on my walls. I like art on my arms. I like art. There's some Rogan tattoos out there. I saw Lex Friedman face tattoo. There's a bunch of Lex Friedman face tattoos. That's so good. That's so good.

He just had a birthday. Oh, you did too. Happy birthday. Thank you very much. And Lex, happy birthday. Yeah, there's a lot of, that's the weirdest one, is tattoos of people's faces on your body forever. And there's, I don't know how many of them are me.

There's thousands of them. I mean, I used to post them on Instagram all the time But then I thought I was encouraging people to get my face tattooed so that they can I put it up on my Instagram But it's kind of crazy there might be some reward loop circuitry going on there 100% But before I forget this can I ask you this the people that are into this? Smelling salt stuff their power lifters, and they take a big sniff in that stuff before they lift weights. Why would that help them? Adrenaline.

Adrenaline. Yeah. So a couple of more things about olfaction. And by the way, I love this stuff. This is so wild, because it's the most primitive part of our brain and nervous system. We were chemical sensors before we were light sensors.

Right? We were sensing chemical environments. Is this a safe chemical environment? And we evolved from that. We know that, for instance, memories that are associated with smell, like the people will say, the smell of my grandmother's kitchen

or somebody's hands, my grandfather's hands, those memories stick with us longer than anything because the olfactory bulb has a direct line to a couple of structures in the brain. So we have an olfactory bulb, which is the main thing for smell. Then there's something called the accessory olfactory bulb and sort of divides into primitive smells

that are like, aversive, getaway quick. Those tend to go through a really fast line through the olf accessory olfactory bulb, takes us straight to the amygdala, to the piriform cortex that says move your body and face and away from that. Like I didn't sit there and on the smelling cell, it's like, boom, get away.

It's like a reflex. It's like in fish, there's this thing called the mouth nerve neuron where you touch on one side of the body, what does the fish do? Goes the opposite direction. Big, huge neuron, hardwired circuit. Well, they have those lateral lines that detects sounds

and things and vibrations in the water. They're sensing, electro sensing at a distance. And these mouth nerve neurons are incredible. You touch, boom, the fish heads the opposite direction. Doesn't go like, oh, are you another friendly fish? You want a mate? They go, I'm out of here. Oh, and then they check you out, right?

And so it's a reflex for safety. The olfactory system has these two pathways. The olfactory bulb for kind of like, oh, is this black rifle coffee? And then there's the smelling salt one that goes through the accessory olfactory bulb, straight to the amygdala, which is associated with threat detection and other things

straight to the piriform cortex and then to a motor circuit. Boom, turn the head the other way, get out, exhale. Don't inhale more. Aversive, okay? So the thing about smell is that, you know, it's got these very hardwired components, okay? And they're set up for either a pedative, like, hmm, let me explore more, sniff in more,

versus as opposed to aversive behaviors, like get me the hell away. And these brain areas are among the more ancient brain areas. Now, when I say ancient, people nowadays start picking apart at like, well, it's not just limbic and cortex. The cortex is part of limbic.

That's all true. But if you look at our brains and you look at the brains of like a turtle or even a snake, all the stuff we're talking about right here are all, they're not exactly the same, but they're all present. When you get to humans, what you really add is a lot of cerebral cortex for the thinking and association stuff.

Like, you know, I've been here before, so I'm a little bit less, you know, like looking around as much as I did last time, like things that, you know, context dependent learning, context dependent stuff. Whereas all the highly reflexive stuff is going to be hardwired, circuitry you find in every animal, every person.

And you need to divide things into three different responses in humans, okay? In order to survive. Yum, I'm going to move toward it. Yuck, I'm going to move away. And meh. There's basically only three motor responses to anything. Yum, yuck, or meh.

Now there's a matter of degrees, like you might see somebody you really like, you want to, I don't know, Joey Diaz or something, you know, you see him and like, you want to run over, see him, right? So there's an repetitive circuit moves you towards it. See something's a little odd, you might pause, I don't know what that is or something aversive, like something happens in the parking lot

and you're like, I'm getting the hell out of here. So the brain as complex as it is needs to divide things into one of three different motor responses, forward, pause or retreat. Okay, I was playing with Jamie's dog out there before. I was like, I couldn't get him to back up. So it's kind of cool about the bulldog. You charge him and he just goes,

I'm like 20 times his size. But he's just like- Well, he's also never experienced anybody being mean to him. So every, except a few dogs apparently. But most of his experiences are play. Like he knows he can just run up to you and bite you and you play with him.

Right. So you said about why the smelling salts and adrenaline. So here's the deal. When we have this aversive response, the move away, the yuck response, get me away, there's a parallel response in the brain and body of the release of epinephrine, adrenaline. It's the same thing.

Sorry for the dual naming. Epinephrine and adrenaline are the same thing? Same thing. Long, complicated, boring history as to why it's named two things. Nor adrenaline, nor epinephrine, same molecule. So let's just call it adrenaline for sake of simplicity. Adrenaline is released from the adrenals in the body,

and it's released from a area in the brain called the locus coeruleus, which sends out a bunch of little wires, axons, to sprinkler the brain with adrenaline. And both systems work in parallel. So when you smell something aversive, it goes inhale, okay, olfactory, certain olfactory neurons, cue that to the excessory olfactory bulb,

bam, straight to the amygdala. Amygdala sends a signal, down to the adrenals atop the kidneys. They release adrenaline, sends a, believe it or not, a signal up to locus coeruleus. It sprinklers the brain with adrenaline. And you just had within a couple hundred milliseconds, you just got a parallel adrenaline response

in brain and body that allows you to do what more easily? Move, to move. Now you're ready for motion. You're ready for movement. In fact, I'm sure if you put that under the deepest sleeper's nose, the middle of the night, they're going to wake up. Yeah.

Like a, you know, like a gunshot went off. They used to give it to boxers and they got hurt in the corner. They'd give them smelling salts and wake them up. Yeah, because one of the best painkillers is adrenaline. Mm, that makes sense. Because you've been hit hard before. Isn't it amazing how little it hurts when it happens

and how much it hurts later? Yeah, it's kind of crazy. It's crazy. That's the thing that's weird about fights. Like while they're happening Your shins are getting battered things getting hurt. You don't you don't really feel much Yeah, adrenaline unless you get kicked hard to the body the liver shots Doesn't matter how much adrenaline you have pumpin. There's something about getting hit in the liver

The liver when you get hit like right here if you get kicked or punched right here, it's a crazy feeling. It just shuts everything off. It's real weird. Your body just shuts off. I've seen these images of like somebody just like melt. It looks like they melt. And it looks like they take a few paces and they're like ready to counter punch or something.

And then it hits slowly. I don't know. Well, some shots go away. So like some pain, like if you get punched in the gut and you're, you know, you're, you're tidying up in anticipation, it still hurts. It hurts. But then you move a little bit and then you're okay again. But the liver is the opposite. The liver you get hit and then there's this like sharp pain and a delay

and then everything just shuts off. It's very, it's very hard to fake and that you're fine and move away. You see like telltale signs, like one thing guys will do all the time when they get hit in the liver, they drop their right arm down and they pin it to their body. So maybe they're fighting like this, they're moving, they whacked in the liver and you see them do like that and they're still moving, but they can't help it. They have their arm pre- because they know one more shot there and they're fucked. So they barely can keep a poker face and move around, but there's telltale signs that you see that are just instinctive. You see them just drop their hand. And a lot of times guys will use that to set them up with a head kick. So like they'll hit you a bunch of- a good example of that is Islam Makachev and

Alexander Volkanovsky. He hit him with a left kick to the body multiple times in that fight, and then fired off one to the head and knocked him out. So it's like they're just hiding this. It's like slow, deep pain. You see the leg come up and it's very hard to reckon. There's a kick called a question mark kick, and it's called a question mark kick

because in Taekwondo we used to call it a fake front kick roundhouse kick. And what it is, is you're lifting the knee up as if you're kicking to the body in a straight line and then you whip it over and go like that and turn it into a roundhouse kick. Pull up Glaube Faitosa. Glaube Faitosa was the best at it, so much so that a lot of people started calling it the Brazilian kick because this guy was a K-1 champion who had the most flexible

hips and the craziest question mark kick. And he would literally bring it up and down over the guard. So your hands would be up this, like you think your hands are protecting your head. He would bring it up around like this and drop it down on your head and knock people out. It's so wild because to this day I don't know anybody who can kick as good as him with that kick. To this day he has the best highlight. There's a lot of people that are really good at that kick. But Glaube had a very unusual flexibility

of his hips. Watch this. Look at this. Well that's just a regular one, but he's got some of them that go over that. This is some of his highlights like look at that. See how it does that see how it just goes up and around It almost looks like his knee just yeah, watch this watch this. He's gonna do it in slow motion Watch the whip of it. Look at that. That's so crazy. So you don't even know it's look how he just whip it down and It's just there's a lot of people that are good with that, but he was the best at it. I mean, the best. It was just weird to see how he could do it. I'm always amazed how people can kick standing so closely.

Oh yeah. Well, Glaube was, it's just flexibility of the hips. It's leg dexterity, but the way he could do it, man, it's just he the finest question mark kick of all time I mean here's knocking out semi Schilt who is seven feet tall with it I mean it was bizarre to watch that kind of flexibility and also bizarre that no one else seems to have really kind of captured that technique as well as he did and Glaube used to fight I mean this was like hey

well there's Israel Adesanya, had a really good one too. And he still has a really good one. Look at this one, wow. But that's a little bit more straightforward. I mean, that's like straight to the chin and it's a beautiful kick. But the way Glaube used to do it,

it would go over the top and down. See that? Like that is so crazy. I can't do that. I've been throwing kicks my whole life. I can't throw it like that. I'm always watching their eyes and these fighters eyes. It's amazing to me, like years ago,

I saw a Mayweather fight and it was obviously on pay-per-view and he was getting paid for sure, right? That was his thing. But it was always amazing me in the slow-mo, like where he would slip punches by like centimeters. And they may think that like his depth perception and the depth perception of fighters must, successful fighters must just be exquisite.

Because I mean, like slipping at that distance with just a chin movement. That's one thing, but it's also pattern recognition. You've been doing it so many times and you know, so really good fighters one thing that you see is they don't just charge out in the first round. The first round is like a feeling out process so you're downloading a lot of data points, you're downloading foot movement and a lot of guys watch

tape and they download it from that but then you don't really know until you're in there with a person. So they're downloading positions, they're downloading what a guy does. Like if you pivot to the left, does he move forward? Does he move back? Does he throw the left hook? Does he throw the right hand? What does he do? And how good is he at closing distance?

Does he try to fire from where he's at or does he skip forward and fire? Does he give any telltale signs? Does he telegraph so there's a lot of things that a fighter looks for Mayweather had some of the best counter punchers in the history of the fucking sport he was so good at like staying in the pocket so he was an elusive guy there yeah yeah he's slipping pattern recognition pattern recognition so he knows that left hook is coming and so look how straight he throws that right hand.

See how straight he threw that? So Canelo is throwing these big wide punches and Floyd is just cutting them off at the path and then moving his head out of the line of those hooks that come his way. So do you think it's conscious? I'm obsessed with this notion of unconscious genius, like different domains of super high performance

where the people don't exactly know how they do it, but they do it. Well, you know how you do it, but you've also done it so many times in the gym and in fights that it's second nature. So you're not thinking of it as you're doing it. One of the things about countering people is, and I used to, when I was in my prime, when I was fighting all the time, I would throw kicks and they would land before I even

knew I was going to do it. Because someone would do something, and as they would do something, I instinctively knew because of pattern recognition, there's going to be an opening. Like say if some guy lifts his left leg, if he's standing with his left leg forward and he lifts his left leg and he's coming towards me with his left leg, I know that he's balancing on that right leg and that the left leg is coming this way. And if I spin and catch him, I can catch him

as his momentum is going this way. And I'll catch him that way and it'll double the power of the punch or the kick. And so- Did somebody teach it to you? Cause there, there's like a conscious awareness of how you do it. I guess what I'm, I think this notion

of pattern recognition, it's interesting cause earlier we were talking about pattern recognition for finding people who are lying, right? You have this pattern recognition thing that, you know, you're not saying it's perfect, but like you can sense something, there's things that, and so it's a combination of things that we aren't always aware of.

That's the unconscious part of the unconscious genius thing that I'm referring to. And so there's this idea like our brains, our pattern recognition prediction machines. And so do you think, like in other words, two questions. Do you think Mayweather was ever pulled aside and said, listen, pay attention to their left shoulder and keep your eye on his right eye?

I'm just making- 100%. Okay. And were you ever told, hey, if his left leg comes up, that means he's bouncing on his right. So you need to prepare a counter attack or an attack. So what you- Well, that's where drills come in.

Okay, so you do drills and you do drills constantly. And one of the things that Mayweather's father was a great fighter. Mayweather's father fought Sugar Ray Leonard back in the 1970s when Sugar Ray was in his prime and gave him a hell of a fight. And his brother or his uncle rather his uncle Roger was Roger Mayweather the black mamba he was a great fighter so

he grew up as a child around some of the best boxers in the world and so he was constantly seeing the successful motions that they did and constantly seeing them exploit weaknesses in other fighters and then constantly sparring. So in sparring, you're not just fighting when you're sparring, but you're sort of downloading data. You're downloading data points for a real fight. And then you're doing drills where a guy will, you know, some guys they'll do it with mitts, well they'll throw a hand at you and they'll slip and encounter. Here let me show you this guy, Ilya Toporya.

Ilya Toporya is one of the absolute best fighters in the world. He's the current UFC featherweight champion and the dude is just fucking phenomenal. But one of the things that's phenomenal about him is his technique. His technique is perfect. There's like no fat in his technique. There's no wasted movement. So when an opportunity presents itself, everything is so fast because the technique is so streamlined. But like look at how he hits the pads.

And when you watch how he hits the pads, and Mayweather is a great example of that as well. Did I send it to you? No didn't go through I? Totally sent it hold on So they sent it No, I yes on Instagram. I sent it to you though on a text message Really? I sent it twice you got it, okay? message really I sent it twice you got it okay Ilya Deport like I said one of some of the best hands in the sport current UFC featherweight champion and knocked out Volkanovsky who was maybe the greatest

of all time watch him hit the punches leaders see how he's moving his head when the guy throws punches just slipping just slightly it's like total economy of movement And the speed man The fucking speed of that Look at the hand Look at the hand speed Fucking incredible I mean if you know how difficult that is to do

and do it that fast Give me that sound again Let me hear this I mean these are like five, six punches a second Yeah it almost sounds like it almost looks like it's sped up by one one and a half times one but it's not and just phenomenal technique But see how those punks like they're not even talking so when he's throwing the mitts at his head to get him to duck there's no communication he just sees that hand coming towards him and he's ducking he sees this hand coming towards him and he's ducking it's all like slight slips away and it's slight motions which is all you need to get away from a punch right you just you don't want to move too far you're wasting a lot of energy

and you can't counter-attack one of the best things about Floyd and one of the most brilliant things about him he's one of the most brilliant things about him, he's one of the most elusive fighters of all time, but he didn't move around. He stood right in front of you and you couldn't fucking hit him. That's true mastery of space and true mastery of technique. He was, in my opinion,

he's the best boxer that's ever lived. Yeah, I mean, I'm not qualified to rank people, but I watched when he was making that ascent towards it, it ended up being 50, you know? He just fought last weekend, this weekend. Yeah, he fought a match against John Gotti's grandson, which is crazy. That's scary for a lot of reasons.

Yeah, for a lot of reasons, right? But this is the second time they fought. The first time they fought, it ended in a brawl. Like a bunch of people jumped in the ring. It was crazy because they stopped the fight because they were talking too much shit to each other and holding on to each other too much. So the referee stopped the fight for whatever reason, I don't know. And this fight was even crazy too because the first referee was terrible.

And the referee said Floyd Mayweather hit him behind the head. Absolutely incorrect call. Floyd threw a right hand and it caught him on the side of the head and the referee claimed that it was behind the head. So Floyd fired the referee in the middle of the bout. He stops the bout, he's like, get the fuck out of here. Get out of here. Well, I guess.

I mean, also it's Floyd Mayweather. Like, what's the referee gonna do? Fuck you, you know, I'm gonna stop the fight? Like, also they're in Mexico City. Like, you could get killed. Like, just get out of the ring, buddy. So Floyd throws this punch, and he's 100% correct. The punch landed to the side of the head, it's a right hook, it's a perfect punch, and the referee was saying, watch the back of the head.

He's like, what the fuck were you talking about? That wasn't the back of the head. And so he kicks the guy out, and they bring in a different referee who finishes the fight. It was insanity. And Floyd won. It was an exhibition. It's kind of a bullshit money grab, honestly. So this is, you see the punch?

That's the punch right there. It's just a right hook. See, same back of the head. So Floyd's like, get the fuck out of here. Just get out of here. Fuck you, get out of here. He's like, get the fuck out of here. And get out of here. Fuck you get out of here He's like get the fuck out of here And if anybody's qualified to say get out of here, it's fucking Floyd Mayweather the best boxer of all time

He's a hundred percent correct that referee made a giant stupid error. He's like get out of here. Get out of here He's like get out of the fucking ring. This is his domain. Yeah, it's and he's right everybody watching it is right No one thinks it's a bad punch. So let's see it again. We can see it one more time. It's a counter right hand. We can see it in slow motion. So he throws the punch, boom.

It's just a perfect right hook. It's a perfect right hook. What it does is a punch that goes over the top of the guard and catches him in the exposed area of the head. It's a perfect punch and for the referee to interfere there and also it's like, it's literally like someone who probably doesn't know how to box at all telling the greatest boxer of all time that what he's doing is wrong, which is just bananas.

So he got rid of the guy in the middle of the fight, but he's still doing these bouts at 46 years old, still boxing these young kids. Again, this John Gotti the third who is a very good up and coming MMA fighter. So, you know, he has all the weapons, takedowns, submissions, kicks, all that jazz, but he's choosing to fight Floyd in a boxing fight just for money, just like Conor McGregor did. It's really a trick. He gets these people to box with him. They have no business boxing with him And he's making millions and millions of dollars doing this way after his competitive career is over which is because he's earned that right Hey, man, he's a genius. He really is a genius He's a genius in figuring out a way to keep making money

And one of the reasons why people watch him fight is not because he's like Mike Tyson just goes out and destroys people They like watching him fight because they hate him because he talks like Mike Tyson just goes out and destroys people they like watching him fight because they hate him Because he talks so much shit and he's like look at my million dollar watch. Look at my fucking jet. Look at my house Look at this He's like constantly showing you all these things that he has like he'll lay out watches in a hotel bed Like this is a million dollars for the watches this watch goes for two million dollars And they're like this is my small watch that I take sometimes but I want to show you when I show up I bring out the big boy and it brings like, this is my small watch that I take sometimes, but I wanna show you, when I show up, I bring out the big boy and it brings out this watch

that's covered in diamonds, it's like fucking $5 million. And so you hate him, people hate him. He creates envy. Yes, yeah, he creates envy and you want him to lose, but he's not gonna, he's so good. But the other thing is discipline, right? He's not just this cocky guy who's like really good at boxing, he also has incredible discipline

I've seen doesn't already running in the middle of the night He would go to a nightclub with everybody else be drinking water Everybody's partying having a good time Floyd would leave the nightclub at 2 a.m. Have his bodyguards drive the car and he would run in front of the car for hours Run home 2 o'clock in the morning, run five, six miles and did it all the time. Just always did. It was always fit, always in shape, never got fat, never got lazy, always was ready and so never really experienced decline and then decided at a certain point in time, like after the Conor McGregor fight, okay, I'm done. Done, did it all, beat everybody, undefeated, bye.

And now he just has these demonstration fights where they're weird little exhibitions where he's just beating people up that have no business in the ring with them. And one of them, he was walking around with a fucking a card, a ring card. He took it from the ring card girl and he started dancing around.

So he's like- He's enjoying life. Under no threat whatsoever. He's enjoying life. Well, people like to be angry. I'm always calling to mind a study. I'll keep this really brief, but there's a famous study by a guy named Robert Heath,

who was a neurosurgeon, and he put a bunch of stimulating electrodes into the brain of some humans getting neurosurgery. And he offered them the opportunity to stimulate any area they wanted. And he stimulates some areas and they'd feel happy or giddy or drunk or sexual arousal or whatever. You know, the one area that all,

there were only three subjects, but for human neurosurgery, that's not a terrible subject number. The area that all three of them preferred vastly over the other areas to be stimulated evoked the sense of anger and frustration. Really? Yeah, people like to be angry.

Which is why Twitter is so popular. Yeah. And to some extent Instagram and I don't know. Sure, but Twitter is the one the most because it's mostly just talking or mostly just text. Instagram is photographs and you could just, I don't comment on people's photo very, very rarely. I might've commented on photos 12 times in my life.

You know, just a friend, like, that's awesome, way to go. Something nice. But I don't even read comments. But I look at pictures. I go, oh, that's cool. Oh, look at that video. That's fucking crazy. I'll give it a little tap, double tap, give you a little

heart, give you a little love, and then move on about my day. But in Twitter, I'm constantly just engaging with people's thoughts and arguments and debates. And that's why I think Twitter's the most addictive of all the social media platforms in terms of engagement, but not as addictive as TikTok in terms of, um, it compels you to continue to watch. I want to keep going with this, but I have to pee so bad. I just, I did the sauna before we got here and I drank 64 liters of water. So, or 64 ounces rather. All right, we'll be right back. We were at, people like to get angry.

And you were saying that you had another urge to take another sniff of these smelling salts. So I'm observing something interesting about the smelling salts. Like it's definitely like, brrack, hits hard. And then you feel really good afterwards. You can feel it in your body. You can feel it in my body.

And then I noticed there's kind of a hunger for it. Right, like another hit. Yeah, like maybe in 20 minutes or so. Just like a cocaine thing, allegedly. I've never tried cocaine. Me neither, good for you. But that's what I hear. Yeah, I wonder, I doubt that hits the dopamine circuit,

but a little valuable science tidbit, we hear so much about dopamine, adrenaline. Look, there are three molecules, they're called the catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, adrenaline, and norepinephrine, noradrenaline. And they are actually, some are biochemical derivatives of others

and they are cousins. They work like a little clan of molecules to raise alertness and focus and drive. I think the great Robert Sapolsky said it best. He said, dopamine is not about the pursuit of pleasure. It's about the pleasure of pursuit. That makes sense. That's why he's Robert Sapolsky.

Yeah, it's all about the journey. That's right. So you combine motivation with adrenaline, which gets your body in a position to move better and noradrenaline, which kind of works in between those two. It's a little more complicated, not worth going into, but they work as kind of like a gang of three to raise alertness, directional motivation and go.

And so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little bit of a dopaminergic aspect to those smelling salts. I'd have to look it up and see. But I certainly like it. It feels good. It feels good. Yeah, and I like, you know, that's why I've never tried cocaine or amphetamine.

Like I like upstates as they call them. Me too, same thing. I've never tried Adderall either, but I've been tempted. Oh, yeah. Because people tell me about them, like, Jesus. I've never tried it. Organized. I'm trying to think of that.

There's some, you know, there was a chart out on Twitter. We were just talking about Twitter where all the different nootropics or, let's not call them smart drugs, but things that can enhance alertness, things like alpha GPC. As you know, 600 milligrams alpha GPC, I don't care who it is that's like,

where's the double blind placebo controlled study that shows it raises alertness and focus? Look, as much as I believe in science, you don't need a double blind placebo controlled study to know the swift kick in the shin hurts and that 600 milligrams of alpha GPC is going to make you more alert. Is it safe?

Well, we did double-blind placebo-controlled studies for alpha brain. Right, right. And so they exist. And certainly that's one that I would put kind of high on the tier of things for if you want alertness and focus. It's certainly more benign than a lot of prescription drugs that create alertness.

But theanine is also really effective for that too. And I don't know how many studies there are on that. Not as many. Theanine takes away the jitters, like 100 to 200 milligrams of theanine will take away the jitters associated with stimulants, which is why it's now in a lot of energy drinks. So you'll see alpha GPC, theanine, sometimes L-tyrosine,

which is a precursor to dopamine. But there were a couple of things on that list, including prescription drugs like modafinil, for instance, which was originally designed for the treatment of narcolepsy. Was it designed for that, or was it designed as a performance enhancing drug, but they needed a way to prescribe it?

Both. Yeah, so for the treatment of narcolepsy, it also has been shown to improve alertness and cognitive function in sleep deprived individuals. So you can imagine military finding that very useful. That's new vigil and pro-vigil, right? Correct. I took that stuff for a while. I was taking it.

And you know what I would really like to take it? Like say if I had a gig in San Diego and I was done with my gig at like 11 o'clock, I was like, I want to go home. I don't want to stay in a hotel. Fuck it. Let me drive home. And if I would drive home, there'd be that risk of the sleep coming on because of the,

there's a weird thing about being on the highway. About those lines, they fucking hypnotize you. It's really weird. Oh yeah, and the rrrrr. Yeah, and so for anybody out here, listen to this, because my manager told me this, it's really important. If you think you're gonna fall asleep, there's a great way to mitigate it. That's pain-free.

Get a rag, like a washcloth and some ice and some water and have like a little thing next to you with a cold wet rag and just wipe that rag on your face. And then you're good for like five more minutes. Reach in there and start, oh man, I'm just going to sleep again. Wipe that rag on your face. You wake right up.

This is a great one. Pain-free. This is a great one. And it fits right in with what Matt Walker says to do the opposite to fall asleep where you wash your face, you wake right up. Pain free. This is a great one. This is a great one and it fits right in with what Matt Walker says to do the opposite to fall asleep where you wash your face with warm water, take a hot shower. I go to the sauna.

We're going to the sauna, everyone says, well, you're heating up your body. You need to cool down to fall asleep, but you heat up the surface of your body and the medial preoptic area of your hypothalamus, which is your brain's thermostat says, hey, the surface of the body is heating up. What should I do?

Cool down my core temperature and that puts you to sleep. Would it be bad to do sauna and then cold plunge and then try to go to sleep? I do that if I'm late in the day and I'm tired, it's not a problem, but I end with kind of a warmest shower. If I want to be alert, I end on cold. If I want to go to sleep, I end with warm. Which is why I start the day with cold, to wake up.

And when you get in the cold, the surface of the body gets cold. That's kind of a no-brainer. And the core body temperature goes up because the medial preoptic area, your brain's thermostat says, wait, the surface of the body is cooling down. I'm gonna heat up.

And waking up in the morning is largely the consequence of body temperature going up. So why do you wake up more quickly in the cold? Well, body temperature goes up more quickly. Also, big shot of adrenaline from cold water. Nobody escapes the adrenaline from cold water, at least upon getting in, as long as it's cold enough. And last time you picked on me

about how warm I'm keeping my ice bath, can't even be called an ice bath. So my cold plunge is now set at mid 40s. That's better. Getting better. But I still go into the sauna at 210, 220. By the way, I don't know if I'm right. I'm probably wrong.

My wife doesn't want, she wants to get a second cold plunge because she doesn't like how cold mine is because mine has ice in it. Yeah, you're probably in the 30s. Yeah, 34. It's fucking cold as shit. Beast mode kind of.

I've got a new one that I got from Morosco. We have two. So we have one here at the gym that's a blue cube. This one's insane because you can crank it and you turn up the knob and it'll be like a flowing raging river. Well, and the flow breaks up the thermal layer on the outside of your body.

When you're sitting in the cold plunge, I always say those stoic things where people are in the cold plunge, real still, looking tough, tell that person to sift their arms around, let that cold water get in your armpits. Well, what's happening is you're breaking up the thermal layer that keeps you a little bit warmer. This is why we huddle in there.

Cause it's not like you're making yourself, like it's not like you're wearing a jacket. If you move or if the water is moving, much more effective. It's painful for me to just check my watch to see how much time I got left. It sucks. Yeah, I have a system now.

If I count slowly to 10 two times, so I count to 20 and I know exactly how long my breath is for it to be three minutes. I know how to do it. So I do it now. That's awesome. It's a little cheating. You know what I do?

It's a little cheating. Man, I can't believe I'm going to admit this publicly. You know what I do? I got two little rubber duckies in there. One's a tougher looking rubber ducky and his name is Rogan. I'm not kidding. I shot a video of this.

I'll send it to you. My producer's gonna kill me. And then there's another one and that's Huberman. And it's you basically teasing me about what a wuss I am. And I do that for the entire time I'm in the cold plunge. So I forget that I'm in the cold plunge. And then at the end you go, okay, you can get out now. And I'm like, okay.

Well, here's what it is. I don't know if the cold is any, if it's any better to be 34 degrees or if it's any better to be 45 degrees or 50 degrees. But what I do know is that I don't like 34 degrees. So that's why I do it. Because if I feel like I can get away with making it a little bit easier, I feel like a bitch.

So that's why I do it as cold as it can get before it freezes solid, which seems to be 34 degrees. Well, this gets to something that I know we've talked a little bit about before offline, not on microphone, which is doing hard things translates to an ability to do hard things and probably translates,

provided it doesn't kill you, to a longer life. And you've explained that there's actually a part of your brain that grows. So there's a brain area that most neuroscientists aren't aware of called the anterior mid cingulate cortex. Scientists who are in the know, know about it. I teach anatomy and medical students at Stanford. It's an area that we cover in passing,

but there are a lot of brain areas. You got to get, you know, can't get to everything. But in the last couple of years, there've been studies of this area, the anterior mid cingulate cortex, that make it super important for everybody to know about, not just neuroscientists. And here's the deal.

A colleague of mine at Stanford, Joe Parvizzi, he's a neurosurgeon. He's in there stimulating different brain areas, including anterior mid cingulate cortex and areas near it. Inhuman patients while they're awake, preparing them for neurosurgery for other reasons. Stimulates anterior mid cingulate cortex. And what do all people who have their anterior

mid cingulate cortex report? They feel like there's something about to happen. Something's kind of looming, a challenge, a storm. Some will report it as a storm or a physical challenge, but their overall sensation is one that they want to lean into it. They want to challenge it. Now this area's subsequently been imaged

in people who are successful dieters, it grows larger. In people that fail at a dieting or nutrition program, it gets smaller. People that embrace a new form of exercise, and here's the key point that they don't want to do, this area gets bigger. People that are just doing things that they enjoy doing does not change in shape or size.

Now, here's where it gets even more interesting. The anterior mid-singulic cortex is larger in volume in a group of people called super-agers, okay? That's a bit of a misnomer because it implies they age faster. They actually age more slowly as it relates to cognitive decline. The slope of cognitive decline is not as steep

in these people, meaning they're holding on to cognitive abilities longer than other people into older age. And the universal quality among these super-agers is not just a larger anterior mid-singulate cortex, but that they challenge themselves to do things that are challenging and they kind of don't want to do or really don't want to do.

So when we hear, oh, you know, people should do crossword puzzles to maintain their memory, probably good to keep some cognitive flexibility going. But if you love crossword puzzles, you're not going to grow your anterior mid-singulate cortex. If you love 45 degrees in the cold plunge after an hour long run in the hills, which I do, probably not going to do much to grow this area.

If you really don't want to do something and you do it, this area gets bigger. And it's got inputs and outputs from all of these different brain areas that make all of this make sense. Like the dopamine system, like the learning and memory system, like the areas of the brain that say, no, I'm going to retreat from that, it's aversive,

but you push yourself to do something that you don't want to do, this area gets bigger and the best part is it translates to an ability to do harder things elsewhere. This to me, I get obviously super excited about because it's nested in human data and animal data in real world examples of dieting and exercise and aging and longevity and all of that.

And it speaks to much of what you've talked about on this podcast for years and years, which is do hard things. It will give you an ability to do other hard things. But if you love doing dead lifts, honestly, even sets to failure on those dead lifts, enjoy them, benefit from them, all the wonderful things that come with doing deadlifts,

great, but you should probably also do something that you don't enjoy doing if you have an interest in the kind of benefits that we're talking about. Well, it completely makes sense that your brain would have to develop an ability to continue to do difficult things and that ability to not hesitate and push through, the ability to not procrast things and that ability to not hesitate and push through the ability to not procrastinate

and go forward. And that that thing is probably like all things. It's like cardiovascular endurance, muscular endurance, like you develop an ability to do more of it because of that. Because your brain recognizes this is something that we're gonna have to deal with. Let's figure out how to respond to this.

Right, and movement itself, like physical movement or cognitive movement, if you're learning new things like comedy, preparing new things or learning poetry or drawing, like I used to draw a lot, start drawing again, carry around this notebook everywhere. I'm not going to show the drawings, they're just for me. But pushing myself to do something that I enjoy, but that like, there's a barrier there.

Are you any good? I mean, I do anatomical drawings. Let me see what you got. You got a lot of dicks in there? No. It's like super there. Are you any good? I mean, I do anatomical drawings. Let me see what you got. I got a lot of dicks in there. No. It's like super bad. Actually, I think here's- Remember super bad?

Sorry, these are just my personal- This is one of my favorite scenes in a movie ever. These are actually just my journal book notes. But I've actually, I used to post my drawings on Instagram. That's how I started. Really? In 2019, I wasn't thinking about having a podcast.

I was just posting pictures of the retina. Talking about the retina. When did we meet? So 2019, I started posting on Instagram. 2020, I came on this podcast for the first time. Okay. But you were in LA at that time. Right, right.

And yeah. And then I went on Lex's podcast a little bit later, and then he goes, you should start a podcast. So I started January 21. Yeah, okay. So here's some of your, oh wow, pretty good. They're not great. They're just for fun. Not bad at all.

They're just for fun. They're just for fun. Not bad at all. But I like to use them to teach. So they're not, listen, I'm no DaVinci, but- Dude, that's pretty fucking good, actually. But the point, I'm obsessed with this thing that somewhere between perfect accuracy and total representation of biology,

like a brain or a set of cells, and at the other end of the continuum, like ball and stick, there's like a perfect sweet spot for teaching. And so what I'm doing there is what I do in the classroom. I go, okay, listen, we're gonna talk about how muscle releases a micro RNA that helps you burn fat. And then I kind of remind people like there's fat, there's a, you know, so I don't want too much detail,

but I don't want too little detail either. That's good, like the anatomy of the hand is dead on. That's really good. So I'm trying, I'm trying. No, that's really good. And of course that's not. Like the anatomy of the hand is dead on. That's really good. So I'm trying, I'm trying. No, that's really good. And of course that's not anatomically correct. Like the nerves don't spit out of the tip of the finger. Right.

But when you're trying to teach. Dude, that's good eye. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, like I'm just trying, again, I'm not trying to be DaVinci. I just want people to learn the information. So. One of my daughters is insanely good. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Well, I wanted to be a comic book illustrator when I was young. And I always wonder like how much of talent gets passed on to kids. It's hard to separate nature and nurture there. But honestly, I think there's something there. There's something there. There's something.

Because there's certain people that like if their parent was a singer, like, but then you go, well, maybe they were singing around the house a lot when they were growing up. People are gonna think I'm weird for saying this, but I don't care. I am weird, I'm gonna say it anyway. Scholls, the way he moves, like how lithe he is,

and his parents are like dancers and performers, right? Right. Right. Also, he's a good boxer. Is he really? Yeah. Like just his movements are so atypical. And like he's like, it's like watching him is cool. Like he looks cool the way he moves. He's free.

Yeah. And there's a skateboarder named Jimmy Wilkins who's like breaking every barrier on skateboarding. And he actually uses his knees to contact the board and move the board while his hands are free. And he's a smaller guy, real small, real light, super loose ankles. And I said to him, like, what do your parents do?

And he goes, my mom's a ballerina and my dad's an orchestra conductor. This guy's using his knees on the board. So like, he does everything, not everything, but he does a lot of things hands-free at mock speed. For people in skateboarding, they probably just want to see flips and 900 varials. And that stuff's cool, but he makes everything look so good.

I mean, Jimmy, for those that are in the know, Jimmy Wilkins is like the next, like Tony will say, Tony Hawk, everyone will say like watching Jimmy. Look, see, the whole thing here is that Jimmy's skateboarding is like perfect poetry. Like, so the reason, but so his back knee is often used to stabilize the board is like perfect poetry. So his back knee is often used to stabilize the board

because he's got that hip looseness that you were talking about earlier. And so his, yeah, he's doing great. That's incredible. He won X Games last year, not this year. This year he took third. Those guys get banged up though. Those guys get a lot of concussions.

Yeah, he's big on the nicotine. I'm trying to get him to quit the nicotine because he loves the nicotine. But between- Why are you getting him to quit? Like, I don't have a problem with people taking nicotine. Pouches? But it is, it's a vasoconstrictor,

raises blood pressure. As long as you're healthy in other ways, I just think that I see people go from like one pouch to a canister a day. Oh yeah. And they ramp up the dosage too. I like threes, like mild, three milligrams. But Lucy sent me some that are 12s.

Jesus, Louisa's. I can do like half a piece of Nicorette. I put that, the 12 in my mouth for like 30 seconds and my body's like, get it out of here. That's a lot. I mean, it seems like you're good at keeping things in that useful but not excessive domain. Yes. Well, I'm a control freak in that way.

I know I want to be in control. I don't ever want to be out of control. Like I've never been addicted to a sub, other than coffee, I guess. But I've taken time off of coffee too, just cause I know that I like it too much, but coffee doesn't overwhelm me, right? So if I felt like coffee was overwhelming me,

or if it was difficult to acquire or illegal, I probably would quit coffee I juggle but at the rate the world's going it's probably gonna be The reason why coffee is legal and is the reason why they created meth really because it's good for productivity Like coffee it keeps you from getting tired. It's good for productivity. It's also enjoyable people like a nice warm liquid I love and and since I really got into coffee from doing this podcast, really, I drink it black. I like coffee. I like the taste.

I look forward to it. I have one every morning. I look, I like it. But if it- I love it in the afternoon. But if I thought it was fuck with my life, 100% I would quit. Yeah.

You know, I mean, I've had times in my life where I was drinking too much, mostly because of comedy, because nights you're out with your boys and everybody wants to drink. They're all drinking. My friends are all drunks. Like a good solid percentage.

Not all of them, Whitney doesn't drink. No, Whitney does not drink. But a good solid percentage of my friends drink a lot. They drink all the time. They drink at clubs. I tried to get Bert to quit. Bert is not gonna quit. Well, he asked me to help him quit.. Like Shane Gillis. I tried to get Burt to quit. Burt is not gonna quit. Well, he asked me to help him quit.

He doesn't mean that. He just wants you to talk to him. Just talk about Burt. I'll talk about him. That's what he wants. But that's what he wants. Let's talk about me. Let's talk about me.

I see. About how I have to quit. Come on, talk to me, about me. Let's make it all about Burt. That's what Burt likes. He's not gonna quit. Well, he was doing better with his health and then he posted that photo of himself in the wetsuit.

Come on, Burt. Like, get with it. Did you get fat again? Well, just send me a picture the other day. He's all skinny Is he lying? No, he's looking more like a melted candle son of a bitch. He got big at least to get jacked He started lifting weights. I feel bad making fun of him, but I'm not making he likes it I'm just worried as you're talking about worried about his health. Oh, yeah, that's not good Bert I'm worried about your health. Well, the thing is Bert is on tour, right? He's got painted toenails too. What the fuck you doing? He He's on tour. So he's on this Fully loaded tour. He's doing all these arenas with all these friends and they're doing activities constantly they go to water parks I don't think of the water parks, you know shit like that

Can you bring a kettle bell or something? They do that too, but he gets drunk every night. And it's not just like a little bit of beer. It's a lot of beer. It's a lot of, they have a vodka company now. That's not good. Now they have their own vodka. So he's drinking his own. What's that saying?

Everybody loves a young drunk, but as time goes on, it does not look pretty. Yes, but there's a curve when it comes back around again. You see a 90 year old guy, it's hammered, that guy's fun. Like then they're wild again. A 90 year old guy with like a fucking straw hat on and a gun, he's drunk. Yeah, I must say.

Like Hunter S. Thompson when he was before he died. Oh man, I must say, I thoroughly enjoyed your live comedy on Netflix. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Watch it three times. Thank you. That's another, so that one was another example

of doing something I didn't want to do. Cause they offered me to do it live and I was like, fuck that. Like I want to be able to edit mistakes out. I want to have, you know, have four shows and pick the best one and do that. I don't want to do it fucking live. That's cruel.

Who fucking needs that pressure? It was so good. I watched the first one with my girlfriend. We want to do it fucking live. That's, who fucking needs that pressure? It was so good. I watched the first one with my girlfriend. We watched it as it was happening. Then I watched it with my friend Tim out when he was out, he's out on tour, like Green Day Rance, all these 90s bands smashing pumpkins are out on tour, like stadiums with 90,000 people.

Isn't that crazy? It's crazy. Crazy, I went out cause I'm like, you know, big rancid fan and I like the other guys too, but I'm a big, big rancid fan. I was like, holy cow, like people love this stuff. Again, anyway, we watched it again there and then I've watched it again.

I will say it felt very cathartic to me. I don't know how it felt for you, but it felt really cathartic. Oh, the subject matter? The subject matter and also like the next day was pure like delight and just baffled and shocked all at the same time when on Twitter, this pure delight and just baffled and shocked all at the same time when on Twitter, I see a clip taken completely out of context

about a bit about taking things out of context. It's like life had like looped back on itself. You were talking about things being taken out of context and they were taking it out of context. They had like cut it. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, I remember that very differently. Cause I remember things that I hear pretty well.

And I was like, went back and I was like, wait, he's talking about things being taken out of context, and they're taking it out of context. Yeah, they don't care. But there's always some people that are just, they're not, this is not in good faith. Everything they're doing is just trying to find something wrong with everything you're doing.

And it's usually people that their life is a mess. There's no one who does that who is a healthy accomplished person who has great relationships in their life and is doing really well at some skill or chosen profession that they enjoy very much. They're not fulfilled. Right. People are trying to politicize something or they're trying to get clicks off your name. Yeah. There's a lot of that for sure. So there's a business in that. And then there's also people that are doing like MSNBC did this recently. And this has gotten so popular that my fucking stepdad contacted me to tell me he's happy that I'm suing MSNBC. I'm like, I'm not suing MSNBC. I'm like, I'm not suing MSNBC. But this is what MSNBC did.

They took a clip of me talking about Tulsi Gabbard and they edited it up and made it look like I was saying great things about Kamala Harris. Wait, what? Yeah. I mean, you and I have been mashed up on other stuff and AI and I don't want to, like you said, we don't want to draw attention

that they got taken off the internet, thank goodness. But it was bullshit. It was like, it was AI and mashup. Yeah, there's a lot of AI ass with us. They did that about politics. Yes, they did it about politics, but they didn't do it like AI. They just deceptively edited the things that I was saying,

took it completely out of context where I was talking about, first of all, I was talking about Tulsi Gabbard, and then I was talking about that the media behind Kamala Harris, all this surge and all these people deciding that she's good, she could win. And they put the two of those together

and made it seem like I was praising Kamala Harris and saying a bunch of things that aren't even true about her. Like I was talking about Tulsi Gabbard being a Congresswoman for eight years and about how she served overseas. Two deployments in medical units dealing with people who were blown up from the war. That's not something Kamala Harris did, it's something Tulsi Gabbard did.

I was just saying things about her and they put it out there as a clip of me praising Kamala Harris. But they don't care about the truth, they just want a narrative to get out there amongst enough people, because most people are just surface readers, right? They read a headline, and I've been guilty of that many times. You read a headline, oh, I know what that is, and then you shut your laptop. I got it now. I got the whole, so if you read an article that says, you know, Andrew Schultz is a liar, like, oh, he's a liar. I heard he's a liar. And

then you just start repeating he's a liar. It doesn't have to be real. And so all they have to do with, so like, how many people are actually going to watch my Netflix special? Well, it's a lot, but compared to the amount of people in the country, not a lot, you know, small percentage. So all you have to do is take something out of context from someone who's never going to watch it in the first place, put it in front of them. Like, oh, that piece of shit. Can't believe he said that. Even though I'm literally talking about things

being taken out of context. The part about this is so frustrating to me is that like at some point, especially as a scientist, right, like that's data selection, right? Like if you look at data and like, and you look at scientific experimentation, starts with a question, you generate a hypothesis, you collect data, you publish the results,

and you get to state your conclusions. Now let's talk about what you're talking about. In the world of science, I don't think there's a lot of outright data fraud, but a lot of experiments that don't work, people come up with excuses to eliminate those data. But there is some data fraud, right? Oh, there certainly is some data fraud.

The amyloid plaques thing with Alzheimer's. There's certainly some data fraud, and there's a there's certainly is some data fraud. The amyloid plaques thing with Alzheimer's. There's certainly some data fraud and there's a range of underlying reasons. One of the more common reasons that people don't talk about, which is something to really strongly inoculate in laboratories against, is when a laboratory is known for doing very, very good work, oftentimes the graduate students and postdocs

that go there feel like they need to give the boss the result. So sometimes it's unbeknownst to the person running the lab. There've been a lot of cases in recent years of papers being discovered as having major issues. And that's like, well, did you go after the lab head or do you go after the person who did it?

Lab heads are responsible for everything in their lab. AI is helping with this because you can scan data and look at things, but ambition is a dangerous thing. If somebody puts ambition ahead of accuracy. So there's that kind of thing. And then there's outright data fraud. I mean, there was this nanotechnologist guy from some years back, I think his last name was Shone,

who had like 20 papers in science and nature in two years. And it turns out he wasn't even bothering to, he was fabricating data. The papers were all retracted. And I don't know what he's doing now, but the noise plots, the random noise plots in these papers were the way he got caught. What it turned out is that, I mean, I'm juggling

because it's like he was so lazy, ambitious, but so lazy that he didn't even bother to use new random noise plots from one paper to the next. So somebody said, wait, random, random should be random. Why is it the same in these two papers? Boom. And then the whole thing unraveled. Oh, wow. Eventually. So lazy.

So he was particularly, he was particularly ambitious, lazy, and that was outright fraud. There are all sorts of other cases and things like that. And, you know, there's people who make this, their sport to talk about. Most scientists are trying to get the correct answers. I do believe that most scientists have good faith. They're trying to get the correct answers. I do believe that. Most scientists have good faith. They're trying to get the answer,

but it's hard, science is hard. Now, what you're talking about, to me sounds like people deliberately grabbing from the palette of paints, that is the words that are spoken by anybody on the internet, especially people with podcasts, you or me, or anybody else, and then literally cutting and pasting things together

to create a story, which is fiction. Do you know who Pink Trip is? No. You don't know Pink Trip? Pink Trip is hilarious. He's a guy on the internet who takes clips of podcasts and creates narratives of things that are totally not happening.

Oh yeah, I've seen some of you- Like this one recently, me and Tucker Carlson are having an argument. I haven't seen that one. It's good. Somebody sent it to me, who fucking sent it? some of you one recently me and Tucker Carlson are having an argument. I haven't seen that one It's good Somebody said to me fucking something. See you can find I remember one of you and Elon several perhaps Yeah, so I know that so pink trips it no, it's a dude. Okay, his name is pick you see here it is pink trip So it's visible what no space is real

Are you joking? You're a science denier. What? Here it is pink trip so it's visible what no space is real Are you joking you're a science denier what? stop The the bodies of science have bestowed the truth if you ignore I get another fucking lecture from you I'm gonna go crazy Shut the fuck up bitch you're fucking idiot Don't do that anymore. What are you gonna? Do about it bitch? We can do bad You are literally powerless. Yeah, I'm just gonna do whatever I want

You could get your ass kicked. Are you threatening me? Yeah, I Think you are a far-right whites premises. I have racist you're like my dog Does it ever occur to you? Just like vulgar If I were sort of narrowed down my bigotries, it's like people like you, I just think you're disgusting. I'm better. So these are actual spoken words, clued together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. About completely different things. It's really masterful.

Do you want to die? Watch. If I take a 9mm rounder, 7.62x39 and shoot you, you catch the bullet you can't do that what are you gonna do about it why would you hide that funny but this is funny right he does that with a lot of stuff like people pretending to be in love with me Makes it like there's a romance or shame. So good different people but it's That's funny. He's doing that's art, right? He's making a story that doesn't exist. It's really funny, right? But there's people that do it just to either in this case

It was to promote Kamala Harris to to get the passive listener, the people that are, you know, the casual to go, oh wow, Joe Rogan likes Kamala Harris. I heard you're endorsing and not endorsing all sorts of people. Yeah, you can't even say I like somebody without it being an endorsement and people getting mad. But I think the MAGA people are happy now

that Robert F. Kennedy is now with Trump. So I think- They've unified the belts. Yeah, I think we're in a very weird time with the media, and I think truth is super important. And I think someone that's willing to do something like that, that's a real offense.

It's a real offense. It's not a small thing. It's a real lie. And it's a lie that changes other people's opinion. You take what's perceived to be an influential person and you distort their views in either a way to shame them, make them look bad, or to promote someone else. Like that's a real lie. That's a dangerous lie. It's a it's a real offense and I think that there's no laws against that right now. It's except libel law. I mean you could

take someone to court I guess. But's, it's a real bad thing. It's a real gross lie. And it's used right now to manipulate public opinion. Yeah, completely out of context in the example you gave. And certainly I'm familiar with examples where context is completely cut off at the point where it leads to a false conclusion. Oh, sure. Like where the story is completely cut off at the point where it leads to a false conclusion. Like where the story is completely different.

The reason I gave the counter example of science is when you're trained as a scientist, you're trained to try and parse what's real and what's not real and give the best version of that that you can, and then you are allowed to state your conclusions. But I have a question. At what point do you think the general public

will come to understand that this is the way that a lot of things that they see out there are constructed to some degree or another, and stop actually believing it? It depends on who the public is. This is the issue right now with boomers, right? Old liberals in particular, all they do is watch the news and read the newspaper and whatever is

printed they believe and it's very difficult to get them to consider like hey maybe someone's lying, maybe there's propaganda campaigns, maybe there's like this widespread media narrative that they're pushing because corporations are behind it and advertising is behind it and they're figuring out a way to manipulate the public opinion on things. It's very hard to get old boomers to believe that because they're old, okay, so they're set in their ways. Their mind has formed around, you know, I am a liberal, I am a Democrat, I've been a Democrat my whole life, this is how I feel about these issues. This is this is my community

This is my tribe. These are my people and The news says this and I'm with them and oh great We're up in the polls now and for them it's like they're on a team It might it might as well be the Dolphins versus the Raiders. It's the same kind of mentality in their head and They don't want to be challenged They that little part of their brain that exists when you challenge yourself and do things you don't want to be challenged. That little part of their brain that exists when you challenge yourself and do things

you don't want to do, that bitch has shriveled up to almost nothing and they're real boring and their lives are entirely excited by political discourse. Do you think it's all boomers? Yeah, it's mostly boomers. I think young people are way less likely to buy into bullshit now. There's young people that are ideologically captured

for sure. You see that both with right-wing people and with left-wing people. Sorry, I mean, do you think that all boomers believe in the traditional media like this? It's mostly because they grew up with it. They're the ones, the kids today, they don't buy it at all. Like Gen Z kids and whatever the fuck they are.

What's the newest? Is this, what's the latest? Whatever these kids are. These young kids coming up today, like people in their twenties, they don't believe it at all. Well, I'll tell you, you know, I'll non-reluctantly tell you, you know,

my dad and I, over the years, like, we had some early issues and we resolved them and we're good now. But when some not so kind press came out about me, they interviewed a lot of people. They interviewed a lot of people from my high school class and friends and coworkers, and then cherry picked for the story they wanted to create.

But they talked to my dad, okay? And I would not put my dad into the political camp that you described or any camp really. But he's a first-generation immigrant, moved here from Argentina, did his PhD under a scholarship from the Navy. You know, it was like a story of an immigrant who came here and became a scientist.

It was- American dream. Yeah, there wasn't a lot of science to do in Argentina. There's not a lot of funding for it, right? So came here, I would say that when they reached out to him, he was like, oh yeah, reporter was super nice. You know, they asked me all these questions. And then he called me.

He was like, I'm shocked. I didn't say that. That was completely flipped and twisted. And I said- And you gotta record those kinds of conversations. And I said, it's okay. You know, it's okay. In fact, and that changed his perception.

I can't speak for him, but based on conversations we've had since, changed his perception. He was like, I can't believe this, that they would sort of leverage this for a false narrative. You're allowed to do it for whatever reason. You know, I have a friend who used to work at New York Times and said they were encouraged to do it.

They were encouraged to just try to take someone down. Like that was the whole idea of a piece. Yeah, well, that was made clear by the fact that many people reached out. Like I had the best conversation with this person or my former, when I was a kid, I grew up skateboarding and I rode for this brand, you know, Thunder and Spitfire. of a piece. Yeah, well, that was made clear by the fact that many people reached out. Like I had the best conversation with this person or my former, when I was a kid, I grew up skateboarding and I rode for this brand, you know, Thunder and Spitfire.

And my team manager was interviewed. And then he called me afterwards and he said, yeah, it was kind of weird. Like I kept telling them the story that, you know, that they had heard about you on podcasts over and over and they kept poking and probing, trying to get me. And he said, that's what happened. Andrew called me that day and said, help me.

I need to get out of this place, et cetera, et cetera. And he was like, I don't get it. And I was like, listen, Sharugi, like that's what happened. Andrew called me that day and said, help me. I need to get out of this place, et cetera, et cetera. And he was like, I don't get it. And I was like, listen, Shruggie, like that's what we call him, Steve Ruggie. I go, listen, like thanks for talking to her, but you know, it's just the way it works. It's not about- Like they weren't really interested in the truth.

They were interested in pulling out certain language. An ex-girlfriend of mine said the same thing. Like I talked to her and I told her like, what a great relationship we had. And then like what she printed kind of alluded to something kind of slightly different. And I just said, listen, you know, thanks for talking to me.

You know, like the goal is to collect a bunch of data. Like this is where I compare it to science, my domain. Compare, take a bunch of data, cherry pick, only the things that could work if those only were true. And some of them are just outright lies. And then publish that, that is data fraud. So I agree with- Like pharmaceutical studies.

Like many, like many. And at the same time, you know, like we're enjoying nicotine here, or you are, because I will say I'm not in defense of the pharmaceutical industry, nor am I on attack of them, but there are certain things that, you know, push through traditional science. You get great information about dosage and safety.

Look at Ozempic, right? I get asked about this all the time. I don't know how this became politicized. I will say, if you do things to offset the muscle loss for certain people, reducing their appetite with it might be a useful tool. It's expensive, is there dependence? Those are important issues.

But we learned one thing for sure from Ozempic, Monjaro, et cetera. The main cause of the obesity crisis is people eat too many calories. On average, about 3,500 calories per day, and they don't move enough. They don't exercise enough. And then we can get into what they eat, et cetera.

We'd have a discussion about seed oils if we really want to cause some friction. I don't like seed oils. I don't eat them, but I'm not aware of any randomized control trial that says that they're bad. I just don't like them. I like olive oil and butter,

and I like cooking beef and beef fat. Tastes better, and I feel better. I feel better, and that's enough of a reason for me. But isn't there some science about why they're bad for you? So there's this whole thing about ratios of omega-3s versus the omega-6s, and you get a lot of omega-6s with the seed oils. And I think olive oil is good for us.

I think I will conclude that. I think drinking less alcohol or no alcohol is good for you. I think I'm of the belief that high quality meat is good for you. I'm also of the belief that fruits and vegetables are good for you. Like I think all the data point to these things. I think that there isn't an abundance of data yet

that says seed oils are bad. And I think Lane Norton would support that statement. And he's kind of my go-to in terms of what the randomized control trials say, right? But in my experience, I feel better when I'm not eating them. So I choose personally not to eat them. And frankly, there may be something to it, right? I mean, now we're hearing all about microplastics.

We're hearing about all that. But when it comes to the GLP-1 agonists, right? I spent a lot of time on this, done two podcasts or more, one with an expert, one solo, et cetera. You know, of all the peptides that broke through, you know, we've talked about peptides, we've talked about more.

There's this one peptide, glucagon-like peptide one, that when raised to levels about a thousand fold over normal levels leads to massive suppression of appetite and people lose weight, which for some people is an emergency situation. They're really fat and there's nothing they can do to lose the weight and they're getting sicker and sicker. My hope would just be that those people would also

try and eat correctly and exercise. And so the debate has become, is it good for you? Is it bad? Well, there's muscle loss. So offset the muscle loss, but let's be realistic. Most people won't offset the muscle loss. Right. If you could do both, it'd be better. Yeah, or come off the ozepic bunjaro eventually

by replacing your behaviors. You know, it's hard to move when you're, I've never been big and overweight, but you know, the way that Goggins talks about it, or, you know, it's gotta be uncomfortable. Like when you're feeling kind of just not great, like just to move, you can get injured easily. I would say one of the best ways to get

and stay in great shape your whole life is yes, exercise, eat right, et cetera, but, you can get injured easily. I would say one of the best ways to get and stay in great shape your whole life is yes, exercise, eat right, et cetera, but also don't get badly hurt. Yes. That's a huge one that nobody talks about. Oh yeah. And the number one way in my opinion to get badly hurt is do a workout that a friend suggests

without at 10 out of 10. Well, especially with heavy stuff. Right. Or go to one of these bootcamp things like, I want to sweat a lot. You go in, you do a bunch of circuit training for an hour and two days later, your shoulders like, oh boy. So you got to build up to that kind of stuff.

So, you know, I think there are a lot of themes here, but I'm not opposed to certain pharmaceuticals. I think certain people need drugs for ADHD, a lot don't. And you know, dose response curves and lethal dose analysis and that kind of stuff is super valuable. What I don't like, because I don't think it's necessary is when people default to the most expensive side effect risky kind of reflexive option.

Because I think that the basics, sunlight, exercise, cardio and weight training. I mean, we're in a, like these things work. They work so well. They've always worked well and they'll always work well. And I also think there's great data emerging that they transform mental health. I mean, the data on resistance training

two or three times a week and mental health is striking. I mean, you compare that to what people get from certain SSRIs and you're like, for goodness sake, 45, 60 minutes a week, lift some heavy objects. You feel better. And it literally has better statistical results than SSRIs, which is pretty nuts.

And I know you've talked about this recently, and I'm kind of like hitting a bunch of things here, but I think a lot about this relationship between traditional science, FDA, NIH. I reviewed grants for the NIH for years until very recently I was a regular study section member. I understand the process, I understand the limitations and the benefits, and I also understand that,

like in the cases recently where the FDA decided to not approve MDMA for the treatment of PTSD, you go like, whoa, what's it going to take? I think, you know, I had a lot of feelings about that ruling. I think it's unfortunate given the really strong data that support the use of MDMA for the treatment of PTSD. I mean, more than 60%, you know, successful in air quotes,

plus some people just go into total remission, but the hazards are there. And if there aren't safeguards in place for the practitioner-patient relationship, which is one of the major concerns, if those aren't there, well, then it's never going to be legalized. So-

What is the hazard of the participant with the person that's helping them? So there were two major issues plus some others, but the ones that I'm most aware of is that lack of an adequate control group. People don't know if they got the drug or they didn't. And then the other one is during the course of the trials, there were some issues that came up

about improprieties between practitioners and patients. Oh, like sexual stuff? My understanding is that there were certain things may have arisen that kind of like pricked up people's ears. But the major issue was this, is a person who's under the influence of MDMA in a position to advocate for what they need during the course of the session, right?

Like are they in a quote unquote truly safe space? But the same thing could be said of psilocybin trials. So the solution there is my understanding is that you have two therapists there. It's not one therapist, one patient, you have two therapists. That there are safeguards in place. The same way that when somebody, a brain surgeon does a brain surgery,

there's an anesthesiologist there and multiple nurses and staff to get things and hemostats. So I think that there needs to be, I think a next phase evolution of the way that we think about things like MDMA assisted treatment for PTSD, because I do think by my read of the data, and I about things like MDMA assisted treatment for PTSD. Because I do think by my read of the data and I've looked closely at these data, despite a few retractions, there's still a body of data that really point to how powerfully helpful

it can be for certain people under the right conditions. It's just striking. Yeah. And there's a tremendous amount of anecdotal data, just people who haven't been in a study but talk about the benefits that they've had from it and how much it's, especially war veterans with both psilocybin and MDMA. And Ibogaine, the work that Veterans Solutions is doing with a guy at Stanford, Nolan Williams

in our department of psychiatry, he's been doing brain imaging before and after Ibogaine with the veterans that are taking Ibogaine followed by DMT. And those are looking very, very interesting. To me, it's also the kind of emotional loading of things like MDMA. When we call it MDMA, if I tell you, this is MDMA, this is a drug that raises serotonin dramatically,

raises dopamine dramatically, opens neuroplasticity and allows people to rewire their brains, if adequately supported, to feel relief, if not remission from PTSD. You'd say, awesome, how do we move this forward safely? But if I start using words like ecstasy, I start using, now I call it what it really is, MDMA, methylene dioxide, methamphetamine.

You hear methamphetamine, you hear ecstasy. You start hearing a bunch of stuff that starts shifting your brain towards, okay, this is like a party drug, they want to use it. Same thing was said about cannabis. I've done multiple episodes about cannabis. I'm not anti-cannabis. I think there's case studies where, excuse me,

that's a specific thing in science, use cases where, or examples where people with a propensity for psychosis should probably not be doing high THC cannabis. I learned something really interesting, by the way, about this. We brought on an expert, brought on in part where there was a little bit of a Twitter battle.

I put out a solo episode about cannabis years ago. No one had a problem with it. Put a clip on X. Whoa, people came at me like crazy, like crazy. So I invited one of the main academics in that area onto my podcast. He eventually agreed. What was his disagreement with?

He didn't like a bunch of things I said, but mainly three statements. One was that I said that there was evidence because there is a published paper, I must say this, there is a published paper looking at the differences in subjective effects that people experience with sativa versus indica strains.

And he said, there's no evidence that there's a different experience from sativa versus indica strains. That's just all bud tender lore. You shouldn't be saying this. He doesn't smoke weed. Because that's just not true. So I said, wait, here's the paper.

Here's the paper. Then there were a couple other things. One is I said- Did he agree once he read the paper? He said he would like to see more evidence. When he came on, he was very gracious, offered a lot of useful knowledge, but he really didn't counter with that much.

There were some issues about CBD biology versus THC. What is his field of expertise? He works on animal models, but focuses on cannabis biology. And so he's very knowledgeable. And I don't think he's anti-cannabis at all. But he just was, he was checking me on some things that he felt that I- Maybe he does look weird.

Yeah, he's from Canada. Maybe he needs better weed. He's a very nice guy. He was checking me on some things that he felt I had not gotten correctly or that weren't adequately supported. So my response was, I did this publicly, come on the podcast.

Right. Like, I'm not afraid to talk science, that's what I do, like let's go. And not in a combative way. He agreed to come on the podcast. We had a great discussion. And one of the things that he said was the whole idea that there's so much more THC in weed now

that's leading to all these problems. Like the weed of today is not the weed of yesterday. He said, when people inhale, they take it by, you know, vape or they smoke it or whatever. There's, his words are that there's far fewer cases of people taking in more. They're able to reach that point that they want to be at without going too far. However, even though it's higher potency,

however, when people take it by edible, there are cases where people get to genuine freak out in psychotic episodes because they're taking in far too much too quickly, because you can eat the edible quickly. You don't, they're not layering in until they hit that plane that they want to be at. Well, it's also the conversion to 11 hydroxy metabolite. It's five times more psychoactive than THC.

I used to do a joke about it that lets you talk to dolphins. It's a true story about edibles and dolphin experience. I used to do a joke about it that lets you talk to dolphins. It's a true story about edibles and dolphin experience. So he wasn't anti-cannabis. And in fact, I think it was a case where maybe this brings us back to Twitter, where Twitter was a very valuable tool. So I put out something, I was going off the literature that I cited.

He said, no, no, no, no, listen, there's some issues here. You should adjust this. We brought him on the podcast. He was reluctant to come on the podcast. He thought I was going to like set him up for a fall. We've never done that. He comes on the podcast, got the information out there, and then it all just kind of went to like a quiet simmer

or nothing. And in the end, I think that's the way that all of this stuff should be handled. Whether or not you're talking about one medical treatment or another is, and this is the way you've done it. And this is the example you've laid out for me and for others, right? Which is talk about both sides.

Talk to vegans, talk to carnivores, talk to omnivores, talk to people who are pro-cannabis, anti, and worried about psychosis and not. Talk to people that are really pro-MDMA for the treatment of PTSD. Talk to people who are very reluctant. I think only there can we get the overlap in the Venn diagram about what the agreements are

and what the disagreements are and move forward. And this is- Especially long form, because then you get to understand how a person thinks about things, not just the subject at hand, but maybe other things. You get to hear their speech patterns and their thinking patterns.

And I think direct experience is real. Yeah. You know, Cam Haynes pointed this out recently, and I'm not saying this to like focus, you know, the positive energy on us, but it will invariably do that, or inevitably do that, excuse me, which is he said, you know, it's kind of interesting that all of the top podcasters like really fit,

you know, like all the people that are like really into their health, right? Like you and you know, there's David's out there like influencers, he was saying like, there's a are really into their health, right, like you, and there's David's out there, like influencers, he was saying like, there's a health component or a fitness component, not always, but I think most of them, I think he may have said all of them, he may have said many of them,

but Chris Williams and Lex, there's a tendency to merge kind of intellectual discourse with physical, and I think that's a unique theme of podcasting also, at least of certain, let's just say what it is, like a lot of the top podcasts, that's like a pretty consistent theme for the female podcasters too, like Whitney Works Out, those are podcasts.

Like there's a kind of merging of those things. And I think that when it comes to the discussion about anything about health, it also is beneficial if people are engaging in healthy behaviors, right? Or if they've tried things, like they're trying to be fit. I see Rhonda posting pictures of herself deadlifting now, right, you know, and like Peter's talking

about his workouts and he's a physician, he's an MD. So I think it's not sufficient to just study something, to just look at the data in papers. I think it really helps if you're able to get in close contact with the things that you're hearing about. But also it helps me to know whether or not you have any discipline. So there's people that think about a certain thing

because it comforts their own thoughts about their decisions that they've made. And there's certain rationales that people make. They rationalize certain aspects of their life and certain things that are going on in society to sort of make up for the fact that they haven't done the work that they probably should have done in the first place. So when I see a guy that's built like Chris or Lex or someone who I know or yourself that I know stays very physically fit and takes care of their health, then I have more respect for them because I go,, then I have more respect for them. Because I go, okay, I have more respect for this person's opinion because this person

is doing difficult things on a regular basis and confronting their own hesitations, their whatever procrastination, discipline issues, and the physical ability to put in work which requires mental strength. And for the longest time for whatever strange reason people have had this mutually exclusive notion that a person who is physically fit is probably stupid and a person who doesn't care about their body and only concentrates on the mind for some reason that is admired that this person has no ego at all and doesn't care but that I think that person's a fool because you don't have as much energy to think because your physical

body that you have you've let decay to this terrible point where your posture's down like I've had some unfortunate conversations with older intellectuals that don't take care of themselves. And you realize that at a certain point they've gotten lazy physically and they don't have the energy to engage. And so they sort of just sort of repeat things that they've said over and over and over again.

And when you ask them to think on the spot, they almost don't have the will to do it anymore. You know, it sucks. Yeah, it does suck. And there's a direct correlation between this ability to continue moving your body and your intellectual ability. I mean, you have to still go and learn and read and acquire knowledge and try hard things.

You just can't just work out. But I can think of a number of key examples that are historical. The greatest neurobiologist of all time, supernatural levels of ability was a guy named Ramon y Cajal, won the Nobel Prize in 1906. He was the one who first defined the synapse, et cetera.

He carried an iron umbrella to work. He lifted weights. Oliver Sacks, one of the greatest neurologists and writers of our time, passed away in 2015, had a 600 pound squat. Okay. Yeah, he had the state power, a state powerlifting record at one point.

Just a beast of a guy who was also a neurologist and wrote all these beautiful books about how the mind works, the man who mistook his wife for a hat. He was behind the movie, Awakenings, et cetera, et cetera. Don Kennedy, former president of Stanford, ran into his late seventies. And then after that had a hip replacement

and then was doing other stuff. So Richard Axel is a Nobel Prize from Columbia University, first person to find ways to introduce genes to novel genes to cells. Played racquetball, I don't know if he's still playing racquetball. You know, I'll name one more. These are incredible people. Like the guy who essentially defined the understanding

of the visual system and neuroplasticity. My scientific great grandfather, there's David Hubel and Torrensen Riesel. Torrensen just turned something like 95 or something, maybe it's 93. He still runs, he runs slowly, but he still goes, and he is mentally sharp. So this is not an accident.

This is not just a correlation. This is the anterior mid-singulate cortex in action. And of course cancer, a bus, or a bullet can still take you out. But assuming you make it into your 60s, 70s, 80s, movement, movement, movement is the way to stay mentally strong and to continue to have the capacity to learn.

I mean, just to kind of weave these two things, if we're talking about MDMA, psilocybin, or some other agent that raises serotonin and dopamine, or we're talking about movement, all we're really talking about are ways to increase these neuromodulators like dopamine, acetylcholine, serotonin, epinephrine, and they create the opportunity for neuroplasticity.

They don't create plasticity on their own. They create a milieu that's very much like the young brain where it's like, okay, what's new here? This is why adrenaline is such a powerful tool for plasticity. Probably, I'm not going to suggest people use smelling salts to try and do better on their exams. There are other ways to do better on their exams.

I probably will take another one. Okay. I can tell you were thinking about it. All right. Get in there, sir. All right. Take a step. I almost, oh yeah.

And now to the right. No, because we alternated. Remember the altering. Let me see if I alternated. I don't remember which one. It was left before. It's definitely right. Oh man.

Makes your eyes water a little bit, but boy, it does shock your system. Wow. Get a little adrenaline, you can lift more. Well, I told myself I wasn't gonna cry on this podcast because I cried on a podcast recently of mine. We kept it in, but like now I'm crying, but these are tears related to the smell.

Yeah, this is tears, just sort of chemicals rotting your brain. You're supposed to not do that more than twice a day, but we've done it many times. So it's just this thing, neuroplasticity, like does it really? That's from your sinuses. You have some skulls around here,

like the sinuses run from here and through to the, that's why when you get a sinus infection, you're clear here. Yeah. Yeah. But neuroplasticity is the most impressive feature of the human brain. It can rewire itself.

But when you're a kid, you rewire in response to a passive experience, for better or worse. As an adult, you can rewire your brain, but you have to create the milieu, the environment that the brain wants to rewire itself. So these neuromodulators like adrenaline or dopamine or serotonin, they need to be spiked. And nicotine, what you're now taking in another one

is we know comes, it does many things in the brain and body, but gosh, that stuff's strong. Yeah, man. But there's a brain area called nucleus basalis, which sits in the base of the brain. And it can serve as a spotlight by releasing acetylcholine onto what? Onto nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in certain circuits

and provide focus. So that's what nicotine's doing, unless you take so much of it every day that those, your kind of baseline levels of acetylcholine either drop or become kind of regulated to the point where you're not getting that spotlighting anymore, which is why people then are taking more and more.

But as our, you know, your former guest and my colleague, Dr. Analemki has said, the worst thing you can do when you're in a trough of dopamine is try and boost dopamine again. You just got to wait for it to come back. So if people want nicotine to continue to work, they should use it sporadically

or when they feel like it's not working anymore, take a break. That's what McKenna used to say about cannabis. McKenna, who would, Terrence McKenna would freely admit that he had a problem with cannabis because he was like a daily cannabis user. But he said the real way to take it, he said is to take a long time off, a long time off,

so that your body's completely desensitized to it, and then take as much as you can stand in like one dose. Like that's, cause he was interested in it as a psychedelic, you know, especially if you do that in edible form, it just, it is a very, very potent psychedelic, but there is that concern and I think this is a very important thing to bring up.

It's not benign and certainly not to everybody. Nicotine. Marijuana. Oh. Everybody has a different reaction to it. And some people have a terrible reaction to it. Psychosis. Yes, and I don't understand it because I don't get it.

It doesn't happen to me, but I also know that it's real and to deny it as a zealot and to say, oh, marijuana is just great everybody should be high I know no don't know everybody shouldn't eat peanuts either You know some people have a weird reaction to things and there's a certain I mean Alex Berenson wrote that book tell your tell your parents or tell your children tell your children It's all about that about that there needs to be some recognition but there's a certain percentage of people that have a tendency towards schizophrenia or maybe psychotic breaks and

They can get triggered by high doses of cannabis for sure. No question. So no people that's happened to yeah And I covered that in my solo episode on cannabis then this person This researcher from Canada who's I don't think he's pro or anti cannabis But had differing views, came on my podcast. And then- What's his name? Matt Hill. And he's a respected researcher in this area.

And I thought his stance was very, very nuanced. And then after he came on the podcast, other people, not Berenson necessarily, although I haven't checked my DMs that closely, contacted me and said, "'No, I have counters to that guy,' which just told me everything I already know, which is that science is a field

with people with differing opinions, right? And- Which is good. Which is great. I mean, you don't have a field until you have differing opinions. You don't want to be the person working, the only person working on something.

You want that. It's something that, you know, you can tell I get really impassioned, smelling salts or no, about this, because somehow in the media version of, is cannabis good, is cannabis bad? And honestly, the political aspects to it, like I wasn't tracking the fact

that cannabis was just about to be approved for more legalization, right about the time that that clip got amplified. But I wasn't saying it should or shouldn't, I'm just giving you the information, same as I did for alcohol. We, I would love to put this to rest once and for all. Every couple of weeks or months,

you're going to see media outlets say, some drinking is good for you. Others will say, some drinking, any drink is bad for you. Here's the deal, zero is better than any. A little bit's probably fine, especially if you do other things to offset the sleep loss and microbiome stuff. If you're going to drink, probably should be doing other healthy behaviors anyway. No one's saying it's probably fine, especially if you do other things to offset the sleep loss and microbiome stuff. If you're going to drink,

probably should be doing other healthy behaviors anyway. No one's saying it's terrible. I'll have a drink every once in a while. I'm not an alcoholic. If you're a non-alcoholic adult, one or two, I love like a good white tequila with soda and lime, so good. But I don't really like alcohol enough to be able to comment past that.

But, and I haven't had a drink in years, but the reality is that one study after another saying, moderate drinking is good for you, no drinking is better for you, cancer is, this is never going to stop. It's a field. Now we have enough data, people can make their decision. Right? Right?

Everyone knows sleep is important. There's no field to be had except to how to figure out to get sleep better, in my opinion. Okay? Sleep deprivation is bad, but you're not going to get dementia or die from a couple bad nights sleep. That's also true. So it's almost like the way things have split politically

has become the way that health information has split. And I'm fighting tooth and nail, and I know you are and other people are as well, to try and continue to shine light on the field that is psychedelics, the field that includes cannabis, the field that includes things like weight loss and ozempic, but also exercise and all the other good things. And somehow, and maybe you can tell me,

because I'm new to the media thing, newer than you, certainly, for some reason, people don't like that. It's like the brain needs like a black and white thing. It's like they can't seem to just deal with the fact that like, look, you'll find evidence for and evidence against you. You just got to make it the best decision for you.

Well, there's also people that write articles with a specific narrative because they're gamifying the social media algorithms. They're gamifying clickbait. So it's business. Gamifying clickbait is real. I mean, it's a, unfortunately, one of the things that happened to journalism

is people stopped buying newspapers. And when people stop buying newspapers, the only way someone can, you can get someone to go to your website and click on a link, so you have to have some sort of inflammatory headline, something that excites you, something that angers you, something that like, gives you some information,

some secret information that wasn't available before. Oh, let me click on that. I didn't know that. But science to me is about facts. And I totally agree. I just, you know, I think that Rick Rubin, I seem to, he seems to come to mind a lot to me today. But you know, he once said to me, we're in discussion,

I discovered a bunch of lies in somebody's life. And I was like, oh my God. And he just said, very calmly, he said, look, it's all lies. And I'm like, what my God. And he just said, very calmly, he said, look, it's all lies. And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, that's the problem. I'm realizing it's all lies. And he said, listen, it's all lies.

Back to nature, that's the only truth. And I'm like, yeah, that's why I became a scientist. And then he said, oh wait, and professional wrestling. Cause everyone knows that's made up. So it's real. And I actually went to the AEW with Rick. It was wild. And by the way-

He loves that shit. Well, they're jumping around in the ring and they'll stop every once in a while and look and go, hey, Rick Rubin, like it's wild. Like he's that much of a fixture. It's so great. He's there with his red light, with his red lens glasses and the whole thing.

He does the sunlight. He's gotten much healthier. He looks great. He takes really great care of himself. But I think he's right. I think nature has a truth. It has an order to it. Science's job is to try and unveil that truth

to the best of our abilities. But wrestling, admittedly, everyone agrees it's made up. So at least we agree on that. Whereas I think so much of what we've been talking about today is like the media, like at what point do we realize there are portions that are true, there are portions that are made up? Well, they're making themselves obsolete.

And this is what I believe. I believe that human beings should be able to differ on opinions, but I should know that you're being honest and you're telling the truth. So as soon as you write something that I know is biased and twisted and you've distorted things and taking things out of context, well, I know that you're not in the truth game

So your opinions nonsense, whatever you say is horseshit I want to talk to someone that's trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong Not someone is trying to win and everybody's trying to win. This is a real problem And it's a real problem with win the discussion they they attach whatever the art whatever the discussion is whether it's weightlifting is more important than cardio or you should be a vegan versus you should be a carnivore. They attach whatever this argument is to their own sense of self-worth. And it's very important to them that they counter your arguments and win this little chess match.

And that's what it is. They're playing a little game. I play games. So I don't like playing games when I talk to people. I like playing pool. The don't like playing games when I talk to people. I like playing pool I like to the game is like making people laugh. The game is jiu-jitsu. How do I get your back? Like these are games. I like I like games so when I communicate I don't like games, but I recognize that especially earlier in my life before I

Started recognizing patterns in podcasts like what don't I like when people are talking? I don't like when someone's biased. I don't like when someone is talking over people. I don't like when someone's misrepresenting someone's words or someone's trying to win rather than considering what the other person's saying. So when someone's considering what the other person's saying and then you get this beautiful sort of sharing of ideas without ego. And the real problem is the ego. The ego getting attached to winning a conversation and being correct.

Yeah, well yeah, yeah, and they get in this fucking frenzy where they can't even communicate anymore. And they're completely attached and married to their ideas. The best thing, the best advice I can give people on this is don't be attached to your ideas. They're just ideas. Examine why you believe them. There's many times in my life where someone has hit me with some facts and I thought about my ego, you know why I believe that? This is why. Because I thought this and then I was I was saying, well, if you believe that then this has to be untrue and I don't want to say that.

So I so I've't want to say that. So I've attached myself to this thing. And now I've connected my... And when I'm engaging with someone, I'm not just engaging in this pure intellectual sharing of ideas and a discussion of merit. I'm now in a win-lose situation. I'm trying to win. And I could win by deception.

And you see people do that all the time. It's so gross when you catch people doing that on a podcast. When you realize, you're not even considering these other possibilities, because you're dismissing them without any consideration, because you just wanna achieve a goal of victory. Just wanna play checkmate. And that's all they're doing.

And that's why the media's gonna make themselves obsolete, because that's not happening in podcasts in the best Podcasts whether it's Chris Williamson whether it's Lex Friedman the best podcasts are a true conversation And I want to know why you think the way you think and when I get that in my head I can consider it and then I could say well, this is why I don't think that's true because I think this way This is my my perspective. I might's true. Because I think this way, this is my perspective. I might be wrong. I might be right.

Who knows? Well, but this is just how I feel. It is when you can do that and learn how to do that. And it took me a while to learn how to do that. It makes all conversations better. It makes all friendships better. Like you get to really understand why a person, like maybe you and a buddy had a disagreement about something.

You say, well, what did you think? Like I thought you were going to do that. Like I never said I was going to do that. Why would I do that? Like I thought you were going to do that, but we didn't talk about that, did we? No. So you're mad at something that you didn't even talk to me about. Like, and you thought that I should have just known, like, come on, man, that's crazy.

Like you just like attributing all these negative things to a person and then you can work things out You could talk about things and you get if the long as the person's not bullshitting you as soon as you got people in your life That are bullshitting you it's like oh, you're not even having real conversations You're playing a stupid game of tic-tac-toe all day long with your friends When your friends can open up to you And this is one of the reasons why people like sharing embarrassing information with friends because I know I can trust you I could tell you the stupid fucking I know I can trust you I Can tell you the stupid fucking thing that I did and you go Oh my god, I did that too. We like ah, and then you know, but when a person goes

Well, I would never fucking do that. I had to figure that out long time ago. I would have done it that way Like oh well that guy's dick, you know Like he's not not he's not willing to be vulnerable with me because he always wants to be like socially a step up He wants his status to be in a position of this is the guy that doesn't make those mistakes, which is crazy. That's crazy, especially among friends. I've always been blessed that there's been very, if any, hierarchy of my friends.

We knew who was better at certain things than others. You know, and... This should never be. We're just human beings. There are people that are way better at certain things than I am, that I'm friends with. And that's how it should be. There's people that I'm friends with

that are way smarter than me, you included. And it's okay. No, I'm not smart, it's just different form of intelligence. And I'm not just saying that, you know, with each passing year, and I've looked forward to like approaching 50, because I'm like, now I can say things like with each passing year or by this stage.

Yeah. But I also realized the other day, I lived a long period of my life where I didn't really have a sense of the fact that I would die. I'd watched the Steve Jobs commencement speech at Stanford where he talked, 2005, where he talks about this notion that we're going to die is so critical.

And I couldn't get in touch with it. Recently, I'm like, oh, like time's going to come up. Every time I go down for a meditation, I do this like non-sleep deep rest, yoga, knee drum edge. And I like go do the long exhale. I'm like, someday it's going to just be last exhale. And I'm not looking forward to dying. Lord knows I'm not looking forward to dying.

But I realize, I'm like, this is great. It's very freeing. Because I had this realization the other day in a meditation, no psychedelics involved in this one. And I realized like, I can continue to just be curious and explore and like, I think it's that ego detachment, a little slice of that.

Like, this is bad, this is good, I'm learning from this, this was good, this was hard, I learned a lot from that, I learned what I needed to change from that and just be moving forward. It's this removing this thing of like, like you said, like this game all day long of like, not that I was in that mode or I didn't think I was, but this need to win, right?

It's sort of like being an explorer, I'm a brain explorer. I've been a brain explorer for a long time. I love biology, love animals. Like I'm an explorer. And I think the definition of curiosity to me is that you're not attached to the outcome. Right.

You just want to know what's real. Right, but too many people are attached to the outcome. And I think that's a tremendous trap. And that's why I wanted to talk about it, because it's something that I had to learn, because I was always attached to winning an argument. If I got into a discussion, a disagreement with someone, I was always attached to being the one who was correct. When did that fall away for you?

You're about- 57. All right, so you're 57. It's, you know, I've gotten way better at it over time I don't I couldn't want to like sit and figure out when I figured it out But I figured steps of it out along the way, you know, I remember being 21 and watching a comedian go on stage and I wanted him to bomb and I realized that there was a terrible weakness.

And I was embarrassed that I had that feeling. So interesting. I will say, we know how we feel about people when we see them succeed. Cause I think there's this natural reflex. Like when you hear like, oh, that really shitty person that you knew in school, like they got pancreatic cancer.

Everyone just goes, oh, like that sucks. That sucks. But when you hear, hey, you know that person that you used to really dislike or that you had friction with and like, they just like IPO'd, like they're doing great. You know, you know immediately, do I like that person or not?

Because if you're happy for them, presumably you like them. Right, yeah. Rarely is it neutral either. I mean, I can't think of anyone that I'm like don't want to see succeed except maybe a few individuals I think are actually evil, but those are extremely rare. But I think it sounds like you're also a competitive person.

I didn't do a lot of competitive sports. I'm very curious about this. Like I'm competitive with myself, but like you did combat sport, right? I did skateboarding, played a little soccer, did some swimming, running, weightlifting, you know, like your brain was weaned in fighting a lot of the time. Well, it was also how I developed as a child.

I mean, I went from all my puberty years competing. So that like from 15 on, that's literally what I did all day long. And your goal is to knock the other guy out. Yeah, it's a fucked up way to develop your mind. And you do develop like this insane kind of hyper competitive because the consequences are so grave.

You know, I would say about MMA that it's high level problem solving with dire physical consequences. And that's really what it is. It's high level problem solving. You're literally doing combat, hand-to-hand combat, with your body, with someone who's an expert at it, which is so crazy. So you're fighting a black belt is so crazy

this is a person who's dedicated their life to kicking people into the shadow realm and You're deciding to try to kick them first before they kick you which is just nuts It's a nutty way to live but the negative aspects of it Are you you develop this hyper? Competitiveness because you're you're also developing at an accelerated rate when you're a teenager, right? So when I was a teenager, I had no bills, I had no problems, I lived at home,

I didn't have any real, like an adult type stress, bills, family to feed, dealing with the community, work problems, I had nothing. So my entire focus was just on this one thing, martial arts, and you can get way better when you're a kid. It's like, so there's neuroplasticity involved. Until 25, your brain is a plasticity machine. Yeah.

It's there to map according to your experience. I mean, like literally you come into the world, baby's flopping, like, you know, like little bug, move, move, move, move. Neuronal connections are being removed by the thousands, tens of thousands by the day so that you get fine-tuned movement. It's like you're a plasticity machine.

And then you're thinking and your notions about boys and girls and teachers and parents and good things and bad things and what that means and what that means and who's a hero and who's a villain. Like the brain is just placing things into boxes and symbols. It's like, and who's a villain. Like the brain is just placing things into boxes and symbols. It's like, it's an unbelievable phenomenon. And it's happening when you're a teenager,

then you throw hormones into the mix. People often don't talk about this. Then you add hormones and now you're adding the drive that is hormones related to like really hardwired, evolutionarily selected things like reproduction, fighting, right? We all have brain circuits for fighting. There's a brain area, David Anderson's laboratory at Caltech has studied this.

I think we've talked about before. You stimulate this little region of the ventromedial hypothalamus, the specific neurons, and the animals will mate. They'll mount or the females will go into lordosis. They'll arch their back to expose their genitals. You stimulate other neurons in that exact same area, ventromedial hypothalamus.

You know what happens? They go into a rage. They want to rip apart the other animal. There are videos of this online. You can put the mouse in there with a plastic glove filled with air, stimulate these neurons, and the animal will just attack that thing.

Wow. And then you stop the stimulation, and the animal just stops attack that thing. Wow. And then you stop the stimulation and the animal just stops. Wow, little robots. Our brains have these circuits. As Jung said, we have all things inside of us. The extent to which we learn to suppress or exacerbate depends on experience, it's nature and nurture.

But we come into this world hardwired with the capacity for most any of these behaviors to emerge. Your daughter fortunately got very good at drawing, right? That probably is handed off through some slight genetic bias handed on through you and your partner, your wife, to create a slight bias towards looking at the world in a particular way, an artistic sense, something about aesthetics, pay attention to curved corners

versus square corners, whatever it is. But what we do feeds back on that circuit. So if you draw more, you get better at drawing. This is the nature of- Yeah, that's a big thing. She draws all day long. And she's been doing it since she was really little, but also like going back to Floyd Mayweather.

Floyd Mayweather started boxing when he was a little kid. And there's a thing about striking, and it's not a hard, fast rule because there's some freaks out there. There's some athletic freaks, and there's some people that come from other sports that have incredible speed and dexterity and an understanding of their body that allows them to pick up striking better than other, but there's something about people that learn when they're young that are always better than everybody.

No matter how good you are, there's certain guys like Anderson Silva or there's certain fighters that learn at a young age and you just can't fuck with them. They're just too good. Their nervous system was shaped in fighting. The same way Tiger Woods's nervous system was shaped golfing. That's why when Floyd sees those punches coming, he knows all he has to do is this.

And it's just gonna just barely touch his chin. And then he fires back. Like he knows he's been in those patterns for his whole life and his body evolved. It literally developed in those patterns. This is why when people say like, what should I do? I always think like, I don't know what people should do. And I, you know, I took a formal education path eventually,

but if we look back to the things that really delighted us and that we naturally oriented towards when we were young, there's often information there. For me, it was animals and fish tanks and biology. I wanted to understand things, right? And parse things through an understanding of some structure because the world just, that's what it pulled out of me. My dad's a scientist, so it's probably some genetic thing

and probably some, you know, nurture stuff as well. I went up to, I'm a big track and field fan and went up to the Olympic track and field trials in Eugene, Oregon. I love the town of Eugene. I go to every trials I can for the last, gosh, four Olympic trials. And earlier that summer,

I ran into a guy named Cole Hawker. This is shorter guy for a runner. He runs the 1500. So it's about a mile, right? And he took the first position there. So he got, he went off to Paris and he came from, it's about a mile, right? And he took the first position there. So he got, he went off to Paris and he came from, it's an amazing race. If you didn't watch the 1500 race

at this year's Paris Olympics, it's amazing. If you need, if anyone needs motivation, you should get it from the inside is my belief. But if you need to look outside, which we all occasionally do, check out this race. Cole comes from like fourth or fifth position against the world record holder. He's shorter, he doesn't have the stride

that these other guys have. And they box him in and he goes out and around and beats them all, takes the gold. It's one of these like pre-fontaine moments, right? Now here's what's crazy and relates to what you're saying. He's posting on Instagram afterwards. I happen to know him a little bit. Cam and I went and watched the trials together,

which is a real pleasure. And Cam's like a legend. These Olympic gold medal winners were coming up to him, running, we got great seats, right? And I gifted him a seat because I'm very grateful to Cam for, okay, here's Cole, right? Cole's a USA in fifth position.

All right. I don't know where this is in, there's a fairly long race. So there he is going on the outside? No, so you might want to just go a little further because this is a lot, this is the whole race. Is he the guy with the man bun? Because now he has the last lap. He's the man with the man bun? Because now he has a slap. He's the man with the man bun.

But he's man with a capital M-A-N. I'll tell you what, you'll see. Super nice guy too. So this guy from Norway, Inger Bredsen, he and his brothers have like a reality TV show. They're like famous over there. He's world record holder, also great runner, but cocky. He's like talking a lot before us.

So check this out. So I don't know how far along we have to go before. Damn, they're running fast as fuck for a mile. That's so crazy that they could run at that speed. Right, final lap. So watch this. So he breaks from fifth position after they box him in to win.

Wow. I don't know if you caught that, but basically he's fifth position. So he takes it all at the end against the world record holder. Now, here's where it gets even. Oh, here we go. So he's-

I'll just skip back. He was just way back there. Yeah, so he's way back and then they box him in later and he wins. How, what do you mean by boxing him in? How do they box him in? So you'll see what happens. So it seems like he's going on the outside now.

Right, so he wants, he knows he's got a great kick. So it's like calculating when to go 100%. So Inger Britzen went out really fast in this race, fast pace. So now he's trying to come around, right? So now watch this. So, so now he's trying to, this is the box-in you'll see. He's trying to take the inside track. And these two guys don't want him to do that.

Exactly. He actually touches Inger Britson. He actually touches him on his back hip with the outside of his arm. It's weird, there's no rule. There it is, he sees if there's space. Inger Britson's not gonna let him in. And so he goes, you know what? How about this instead?

How about I come out? Sorry, he stayed inside track and he breaks through. So it's just like, they try to keep you from, you can kind of fit two people in the lane and they try to keep you from doing that. Yeah, they boxed him in. They boxed him in. So here's what's wild.

So afterwards there's a bunch of posting on Instagram. Then they show a picture of Cole Hawker when he's like eight years old, holding a medal, where he was running the 1500 and he's doing like four minutes and change. That's a mile. He's a miler as a kid running four and some change as a little kid.

That's crazy. So this brings it back to your point, which is like nowadays we're seeing the selection of people who are probably have a genetic bias towards something, a love of it, like running, right? Plus immense amounts of experience and their nervous system, like he was shaped myeling. That's a nervous system that miles.

I'll tell you, you can also walk and talk and eat because I've met him, but that's a nervous system that was shaped around running the 1500 mile. So when you see it, they're like the top, top, top, top, one percent, it's so different than like my field where you can't go to graduate school to get a training in neuroscience until you're in your 20s, unless you're a phenom. So you can't go to graduate school to get a training in neuroscience until you're in your twenties, unless you're a phenom.

So you can't go to school for this. And so I think when people look at what they naturally oriented to when they were young and they stayed with that, that's the thing that you had a, maybe a genetic, probably a genetic leaning toward. Do you think there'll be maybe a shift today because there's so much more material that's available to young people.

Like if somebody has an interest in science, neuroscience today. Absolutely. I think because of the online learning platforms, I think of because of, I even like the sport that I grew up, unfortunately wasn't very good at, or maybe fortunately, who knows,

I was skateboarding, right? So many of my friends went on to start companies, became pro skateboarders, a lot of them didn't, but I didn't have a propensity for it. Kept getting hurt, broke my foot three times. I was like so frustrated, it was unbelievable. So I went in a different direction, went in the science direction, turned out to be my thing.

But now the little kids, literally little kids, boys and girls, like this girl, Reese Nelson, she skates with power on vert. Not like a little kid going, she's got power and technical. And guys like Tony Hawk are like, whoa. It's because they have all this exposure to 900s and tricks and ramps.

And there's just way more people feeding the pool of potential professional skateboarders. So when you look at the Olympics or the X Games now, you're getting a much greater selection of the huge pool, bigger sample size feeding into it. You're getting the genetic gifts. Her mom travels with her everywhere. She dedicates near 100% of her time to this.

So it's a lot of what you were saying, like we're selecting earlier, we're pulling from a larger pool, so you're going to get the genetic freaks. The pole vaulter guy keeps winning world records or beating his own world record. I saw him get at the Worlds at Eugene the last about two years ago.

Broke the world record. He keeps beating the world record. This guy's been pole vaulting his whole life. He's been playing for the whole kid. So the earlier you get them, the more the nervous system can be shaped that way. Well, this is a problem that I see in combat sports, because in combat sports,

you have guys who have a championship mentality. Like they could have been a champion, but they didn't start early enough. And even though they have this extraordinary mind, so do the people that started when they were four. Like this idea that you're tough or you're the only one that's tough, that's an egocentric idea that a lot of men have. And it's a very bizarre conversation to have with these men. I don't think he's tough. I think if the going gets tough,

I'm like you're never going find out if the going gets tough. He's gonna fuck you up. Like it's not even gonna be hard for him. You don't even understand what you're saying. Like just, but there's the mind, the ego plays this like cruel trick on you that doesn't allow you to accurately assess your abilities. So you have this bizarre notion that you are exceptional

for no reason whatsoever. And there's a lot of men have that. A lot of men have that bizarre thing. The problem with if you have an incredible drive, an incredible discipline, but you didn't start striking until you're 26. If you have a Thai boxing fight against like a guy like, there's a guy right now is one of the best in the world. His name is Tawan Chai and he has this insane left kick his he's

like so left kick dominant like most of his game is his left kick but it's so goddamn good he just slams it into guys arms slams into the guys legs and he has this snake like movement of his ability to just slide out of the way and then counter and then slam you with a hard left low kick He's terrifying and I don't care how tough you are you you don't have that ability and you Probably are never gonna get there like the margins the differences of tenths of a second Hundreds of a second here and there he's so good, you're not gonna catch him. So even if you're the baddest fucking dude in the world,

in your mind, this is Talentshai. Let me hear some of this. But go for the beginning. Go to the beginning so you can hear the volume of him hitting the pads. This is not what you're looking for exactly. This is like a highlight reel. Yeah, but it's fine. Like go to the beginning where he hits the pads.

Oh, it's just good. He's gonna music over it Oh, okay. It's just music over but this guy is fucking nasty, but he's all left kick Like it's like 80% of his game man. It's Crazy how much of his game? I mean he'd do everything the guy does everything but his left kick is so fucking powerful That every time it hits you your power bar goes down if he hits your arms if he hits your body It's just like all left kick bang bang bang, and it's so smooth He's so good man. He's so good

So if you're a guy and you're some badass Navy SEAL dude And you're 30 years old and you make it to the Muay Thai gym and you decide hey, I'm only 30. I'm gonna fight pro and you take it to the Muay Thai gym and you decide, hey, I'm only 30, I'm gonna fight pro. You don't have enough time. There's not enough time in the world for you to get to where he's at and he's gonna get better quicker. Yeah, that guy's brain has a circuit.

I'm willing to wage my entire career on this. That is a left kick, circuit. Like the same way that a tool like a bow is designed for a specific thing, that circuit is like left kick. Bruce Lee had a saying that don't fear a man who knows 10,000 kicks. Fear a man who's practiced one kick 10,000 times.

That's the, there's a thing about a guy who's got this one thing that's so like, Ryan Garcia has this nasty left hook. It's the- That kid's super fast. Yeah, it's a crazy left hook. It's so goddamn good. It's so much left hook. It's so goddamn good. It's so much better than most people's

that everybody who fights him doesn't understand what he can do until he does it to you. Just whips. Fast, powerful. Fast, powerful, distance management, angles that it comes from. It comes up, it comes around. It just hits you faster than you know

it's supposed to get there. It's so much quicker and has so much pop on it. It's so dangerous. And he fought Devin Haney, who is one of the best pure boxers in the sport. He's so good. But he just didn't have the understanding yet that a guy can whip that left hook so fast and catch him and fuck him up in these weird angles. It's, I don't want to.

Watch this dude's left hook. He gets a liver shot right here. There's his liver shot, that's it. Melted. He melts a lot of guys, that liver shot. See if you could just see, give me a highlight of Ryan Garcia's knockouts. He's got one of the, I'm sure there's some of those online,

but it's all left hook. He's got one of the, I'm sure there's some of those online, but it's all left hook. He's got a right hand, but so left hook dominant, and it's so much better than most weapons. He's got a nasty left jab too, but it's just, he's got distance management and timing, and just the ability to just uncork a shot, like right there, ooh, fade away left hook. He can out time it. Oh, it's just anyone well his speed is just different than other guys

So you don't know that he can like look at that my goodness. He's a fadeaway left hook It's so perfect and when he connects everybody goes night night It's really extraordinary, and it's extraordinary because it's that one weapon that's so good and when he fought Devin Haney He was like Devin. He like, he's only a left hook. Whatever. That's like saying, Talenschei only has a left kick. It's so good. You got to-

Respect that- Only a left hook that always, that wins. A left hook that's so much better than everybody else's. He's got a right hand too, but that left hook is just freakish. It's freakish. Bink, right there. So, if we look at this through the lens of nervous systems,

I know that there've been conversations that you've had here and elsewhere, like would a crocodile versus a gorilla, these kinds of crazy things. We don't need to reignite that. But I think when we're at the discussion around true peak performance, like somebody grew up running miles,

who grew up throwing left hooks, who grew up slipping punches. Yes, they're both homo sapiens, they're both humans, but you're talking about two different animals. When you're talking about the person that got into in their 20s and 30s, versus the person that started off young, you're talking about two different nervous systems.

If we were to look at their brains under magnetic resonance imaging, you'd see a lot of things that are similar, the breathing centers, the stuff that controls the heart rate. Everything is mostly in the same place, but I'd be willing to bet everything that you look at Ryan Garcia's brain

and you go, that left hook, if you were able to throw the left hook in the thing, you see it light up, you'd be like, wow, either more efficient, maybe more space allocated to it, maybe less space, but the speed of transmission is just faster. You're talking about a different nervous system,

which is just a different way of saying a different person, but it's more meaningful in my view, because what you're talking about is cars with extra cylinders. You're talking about a race between two different vehicles. And so I think if somebody is very educated in the fight game or is educated in any domain,

they're able to see that difference and give people really good advice. Whereas with the person themselves, they can't see that. It's like, we look the same, he trains, I train, I train harder, I'm driven. It's like, no, it's not the same. And I think that's why to me, something like a Cole Hocker win over a world record holder

is impressed as is the other stuff we were just watching, incredibly impressive because you say, well, he's in fifth position and he's got a shorter stride and the other guy's got all this world record stuff under his belt and he's done great as well. I think he won the 5,000, Inger Britson won the 5,000. But Colts just like pulls something out. Like they're very close in terms of their abilities.

They're roughly the same species, right? You know, in the context that we're talking about. And then somehow through sheer will, is he able to out-kick him. Sheer will, numbers, there's a lot of things going on. Like what kind of conditioning he went through as opposed to the other guy, like what edge he got. And he's from Kentucky.

I've never been to, I've been to Louisville once, but someone told me, I don't know if this is true or not, but they're more, if you looked at the number of medals from people from Kentucky. I've never been to, I've been to Louisville once, but someone told me, I don't know if this is true or not, but there are more, if you looked at the number of medals from, from people from Kentucky, it's almost like in a complete country. Really? I don't know what's going on in Kentucky.

Was there a great program there? No, not just in track and field, like across the summer Olympics. If you look at the number of like American versus Chinese medals, it's like tears out, but then you go like Kentucky was a pretty good, quote unquote, country. Well, wasn't Muhammad Ali from Louisville?

Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There's something about people from Kentucky are doing very well quote unquote country. Well, wasn't Muhammad Ali from Louisville? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There's something about people from Kentucky are doing very well in the- How are they in neuroscience? I have a friend who just retired as chair of the neurobiology department.

It's actually neuroanatomy. They are my friend, Bill Guido at University of Louisville. Isn't it unfortunate though, that like Kentucky's not associated with intellectual prowess? Not so much, but it's a great department. You're trying to be defensive.

But it's just- No, no, no, no, Bill Guido is a great, he ran a great department there. I'm sure someone else has taken over. I already got great chicken, great fried chicken. Maureen McCall does great vision research there. So I, one of the great things about being a scientist was, you know, my lab now is run at a much smaller scale and,

you know, but for years I just traveled the country, these places I would never think to go to, right? I had a great Argentine meal in Louisville. I went to St. Louis, I had one of the best meals of my life. I don't think I'd ever go to St. Louis, but I was visiting Wash U, you know? And then there are certain cities that you hear terrible things about and they're true.

But not those cities. One of the greatest cool players in the history of the world came from Paducah, Kentucky. Guy's name was Buddy Hall, the rifleman. Like to this day, one of the all time grades. And great horses. Oh yeah. Yeah, great horses.

Yeah, great horses. Like I've been learning more about horses because it's like dog selection and horse selection. Is it, I mean, the genetic breeding and the selection of horses for particular traits, like this whole warm blood thing. I don't know much about it, not enough to comment on it, but these people have been around horses their whole lives.

A stud horse is worth millions of dollars, right? And they know that that's the one, and they put tons of money on it. Like they have this unconscious genius based on all this life experience. Right, so it's almost like they're selecting the same way, like someone, if you wanted to build a Floyd Mayweather, you would select, you know, great father was a great boxer,

uncle's a great boxer, boxing's in the family, starts up young, he's got great genetics, the whole deal. Yeah, or the Williams sisters, like that movie, like the King James movie. Or Tiger Woods. Yeah, or Tiger Woods. Yeah. Or the kids that I grew up with skateboarding,

like there's this kid, you know, Guy Mariano, like grew up, I knew him when he was a little kid, he would waddle, the board felt like, looked bigger than him and now grown up, he's so good. He's kind of in my generation. So he's kind of like in the late forties thing. He still just kills. Cause he developed his body.

Developed it. He grew up with it. Went through all the trials and tribulations. And this has been public, you know, had his issues and got sober and came back to skateboarding and just skateboarded the year for thrash, which is a huge deal. You just see like the young Danny Way,

Tony Hawk grew up skateboarding. His body, his nervous system is skateboarding. And I love this aspect to people in sport, cause we see it, but it's, you know, I think, I remember listening to like, and hearing conversations like this and thinking, yeah, but like, if you're not into that, where is it? And this is where, man,

I just keep thinking about all the time, but forgive me. Rick has always said, the key to being really great at something is to just be you. And I'm like, that sounds like about as mystical wrapped in a riddle as it possibly would be. I can hear it in his voice when he said it. But what he's saying is, what he's saying,

and I finally got it. It's like, what are the things that really pull that energy out of you? What did that when you were young? And if you're fortunate enough to get into something young, that's a beautiful thing. And Rick's superpower is his ability to get close to things, people, music, et cetera, and feel it.

He can feel that thing, and he encourages them to do more of that thing as opposed to the thing they think they should do. And then what's also remarkable about him is he's able to disengage and just be Rick again. Like he has this like empathy, but it doesn't like take him over. It's so wild, the guy that grew up in music

and did all the things he did for music. You know, he's never had a sip of alcohol or done a drug. How many people who hang around musicians to pull that off? Well, he's just a fascinating guy, period. But I think what he's locked onto is getting out of your own way. And there's a lot of self chatter that comes in

whenever you're creating something, where instead of engaging with the idea, you're thinking about how can I make this better for me? What would people like more? What would get a better response? And you lose the magic. The magic is in the individual thought. 100%.

And this is, all right. So I've been spending a lot, I go over there to spend time with him. He's out of the US right now. And it was the weirdest visit ever. I go over to visit Rick and we'd tread water in the morning and we'd listen to this podcast, a history of a hundred songs,

a hundred rock and roll songs by Andrew Hickey. It's sort of like Huberman Lab podcast, but rock and roll, like super nerdy, long, like, you know, drawn out. There are a few podcasts like that, like Founders podcast, I love that one, mine is like super nerdy, right? About a given topic.

So we would do that, and then we would just like sit around. And I'm like, what are you gonna do? He's like, well, let's just like sit. And we would just sit with eyes closed. And I was like, all right, then we have lunch. And then he was like, well, let's just sit. And then at one point I'm like, Rick, what are we doing? And he's like, well, when you keep your body still

and your mind is really active, amazing ideas come forward. And that's when I was like, oh my goodness. Cause my first guest on my podcast was a guy named Carl Deisseroth. He's the world's best bioengineer. He's a psychiatrist. He raised five kids. He's a phen's best bioengineer. He's a psychiatrist. He raised five kids. He's a phenom.

He'll probably win a Nobel Prize. And he told me his practice of coming up with ideas is after his kids are asleep at night, sits down and he keeps his body completely still and he forces himself to think in complete sentences, keep his mind super active. And I was like, wow. And it turns out that if you look historically,

a number of scientists have talked about this, a number of creatives have talked about this. And then I don't have any studies to support this, but then I realized what is the state of our brain or time when the brain is very active and our body is still and our mind is coming up with all sorts of ideas, it's rapid eye movement sleep. We're paralyzed during rapid eye movement sleep.

We have sleep atonia. And everybody knows based on dream studies and studies of creativity, that during rapid eye movement sleep is two things happen. There's a removal of some of the emotional load of previous day's experiences, which is why rapid eye movement sleep is so critical for emotion regulation afterwards

and for the regulating depression and things like that. But also we come up with new configurations. And so Carl Deisseroth, Einstein, there are reports of this, of him walking and then closing his eyes and stopping and describing his mind moving forward while his body was still, very kind of subjective. Rick has this practice. And I thought to myself, like, wow,

so I've started trying to do a sort of meditation where I force myself to be very bodily still with my mind very active. I can't, you know so I've started trying to do a sort of meditation where I forced myself to be very bodily still with my mind very active. I can't, you know, just started this. Kind of interesting in light of creativity. But the other thing, and this goes to what you were saying before, you know, Rick came up through punk rock, punk rock and hip hop, right?

I love punk rock music, grew up on it. That era in their eighties, punk rock in New York is amazing, like, but the whole thing, like, Beastie Boys, he was close with the Ramones, Joe Strummer, all this, and then hip hop. What he understands, and I can't speak for him, but what he understands is that there's this energy

in an early field, let's say of music, where they're not thinking about making money doing it. Like NWA, those guys were just being themselves when they were making music, right? I watched that movie, The Defiant Ones, about Dre and I think it's Jimmy Iovine about beats. But it's really about the energy of early hip hop. And then they talk about Eminem and a bunch of other things.

Or you watch Rick and I at night, we'd watch Ramone's documentaries or Clash documentaries. And it's like, it's the energy of something that's new where people are just being themselves and they're not thinking about making a ton of money on a record. A really great producer comes in and captures that energy and rolls it forward.

And usually what ends up happening is then the general public falls in love with it. And then a bunch of things happen to those people. And then whatever dysfunction exists in their world gets amplified. And then we hear about it. There's kind of a consistent theme over and over. But it's like, and then one of the things that came up

when I was visiting Rick is I was like, you know, I feel like, like I came up through skateboarding, punk rock music, I'm not a musician, that incredible energy, I don't know much about hip hop. I was like, science had that when I first got into neuroscience, like no one talked about neuroscience, it didn't even have a name. We're just like brain explorers, cutting up brains, figuring out what to do,

trying to figure out what these structures did and all this stuff. And then podcasting. It's like, I really feel like the podcasters, at least some of us, right? It's like punk rock, it's like hip hop, because we're not thinking about, I wasn't just sit down and like start my podcast,

and be like, I'm going to start the Kuberman Lab podcast. I was like, I've just got all this stuff in me that I want to tell people, because I think it's super cool. And a lot of it, I think might also be really useful to them. And you're just being you. So when Rick or Lex is just being Lex and or Chris Williamson is just being Chris Williamson

or Whitney Cummings is just being Whitney Cummings. So when a podcast works, I think it's because you're just being you. And it seems so obvious, it's kind of almost trite, but Rick is like exactly. And the biggest mistake is to take the feedback, the comments, whatever, the hit pieces, whatever, and to change who you are.

Now there is sometimes useful information that comes back to us in ways we could do better in life. And certainly I am doing that. But the point is at its essence, it's like the things that makes podcasting beautiful to me is that I think we're right now, thanks in large part to you and some of the other early, you know, entrance guys,

guys that paved the way, is that it's a real thing. It's a real discussion. Like there's no script, we didn't talk about what we're gonna talk about before. Whereas when you go out there and you see these like highly overproduced or like media infused podcasts, like it's not like real. It's not real.

It's like got an angle. They have a story they want to tell. It's not independent anymore. It became produced. Right. And let's be real honest. If you look, you are consistently, this podcast is consistently miles and miles ahead

of everybody else in terms of the amount of consumption of it. Why? Because it's a place where people immediately and consistently go, oh, it's like Joe's just being Joe. It's just like a real thing. And when I say a real thing, this is what Rick means, like people just being themselves,

which like your loves, the things that bother you. And so I think that podcasting to me, it's like skateboarding, it's like punk rock, it's like hip hop, it's like a sport, it's like an art. Like if you watch the movie, one of my favorite movies, the Basquiat movie, right? With Benicio Del Toro and Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walker and David Bowie.

Like, why was he so amazing? Is because Jean-Michel Basquiat was just being himself until the fame got to him and article got written about how he was, you know, Warhol's lap dog, they called him or something like that. And you can see him obsessing about it. And there's this amazing riff.

If people haven't seen it, they should just look up on YouTube, like how long does it take to get famous from the movie Basquiat? And it's Penicil del Toro, who plays the young Vincent Gallo, telling him, here's what happens when you get famous. And it's an amazing clip because it explains the arc

of fame and people becoming famous for being themselves. And then doing the things that they think they should do to stay popular and it destroys the whole thing. And so Rick's message is like Rick's talent is to like feel real energy. He can tell what's real and what's fake. That's why he likes wrestling. He knows it's fake.

And then feel that and encourage somebody to do more of that, less of other stuff. He's a creativity guru. He's a creativity guru. Then step back. But the message he just keeps saying, and most of our conversations end with him just saying, yeah, man, just continue to be you.

You, curious, adventure, whatever makes Andrew Andrew. I know what those things are. It's not about me. This is really about, hopefully if like people hear it, like Rick is saying in that book and in all his messages, like we all have some little spark or gift or genetic bias towards something. And if you feed that, like, and it's a benevolent thing,

you become that, it stays real. The moment- Well, you also show a path to other people. Right. Right. When you can actually just be yourself, people realize, maybe I can be myself too. Right. And it resonates.

And people love that. It resonates. And people love that. Again, I don't know hip hop that well, but you don't have to see Eminem very many times or watch 8 Mile more than a couple of times or listen to his music and understand like, there's an energy there.

It's not manufactured. That's him. He's- People love that. They love authenticity. That's why they love old dirty bastard. You know who that guy was? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, like I'm a huge Joe Strummer fan. And I remember asking Rick, I was like, Hey, like what do you think it was about Strummer? The Clash only around for like five years. He was like, come and gone, right? And he said, very Rick, he goes, you know, there's something about Joe

where everything he said, he brought his entire life experience to that. And I'm like, well, that's about as mystical as it gets. Like, what do you mean? And he's like, he just was purely himself that day with no concern about how you would perceive him. He wasn't trying to impress you or look punk or not look punk.

He just, you know, like- He just was. Strummer fell in love with hip hop. He'd bring out hip hop artists and the punks would boo, which is when he realized punks aren't even punk. You know, like, like they're, they're, and so there's something so beautiful about the energy of something really pure.

Like a Ryan Garcia left hook. It's this, or early Beastie Boys, right? Or later Beastie Boys, whatever, or a podcast. And my, my work now is so much about, like you said, like don't read the comments, shut out the noise. You know, like Lex wants to go into the darkness and the light. He like wants it.

He needs it. It's like- Yeah, but that's always why he's down the dumps too. Always telling him, you're taking in too much negativity, bro. I know. But I feel like if he didn't do that, it would be as weird as him not wearing that suit.

Maybe, maybe. It's, you know, if he didn't drink, he wouldn't be Mike. You know, maybe. Maybe Mike shouldn't be drinking every day. You know what I mean? It's like- They're destructive aspects. Yeah. I mean, it can't be Mike, you know, maybe. Maybe Mike shouldn't be drinking every day. You know what I mean? It's like- They're destructive aspects. I mean, it can go too far, right?

Like there's a great quote in the Oliver Sacks book. He said he had a teacher that said, "'Oliver will go far provided he does not go too far.'" And I read that right about the point that I recently saw the documentary, Road Runner about Bourdain. And I actually had a chance to sit down and talk to Morgan Neville who made that movie.

And I didn't know much about him. But like what I saw there was just like an adventure, like a super curious person, an adventure, and a punk rocker, like he was from that era of like Ramones, like it was like, and it was just a spectacular, like I don't know why I didn't know more about him. I should have, because we have, there's kind of overlap

in interest sets around like the, you know, New York punk rock, that era that I've always been fascinated by, I'm a few years behind there. But I was like, wow, like I just saw like, like genuine curiosity in people and things. And then I realized like the food part was kind of incidental. It was like the person, it's just being him.

And that's why I think so many people loved him is because he was just being him. And I don't know any more about it, but like, I feel like people just being themselves is like the ultimate in personal development. Yeah, he was also brilliant as a writer and he would write all of his own narratives. All the narration was all his writing and he was just so good at it so good at expressing his joy

for different cultures and Trying out their cuisine and what he admired about them as human beings and about their spirit and he loved people He loved people. He loved being around people. He did not love being famous though, man That guy got fucked up by fame. He did not like it. It was very uncomfortable and that thing that you were talking about Basquiat experienced I think everybody experiences. You get there's a temptation towards audience capture. There's a there's this desire to appease those and please those who love you. Maybe at the expense of your own self-esteem

and your own perspective, because you see things through others' eyes and how they perceive you to be rather than who you actually are, and you're so aware and so painfully self-aware that you lose your ability to just be yourself, what Rick's talking about, just to be you. And that happens to most people because it is a complicated drug, which is why it's a terrible drug to give to young people. Fame is a terrible drug to give to young people. And one of the ways that I mitigate all this stuff

is through voluntary adversity, voluntary physical adversity, and then mental adversity, doing difficult things. And the more difficult things that I do, the easier this weird state that I find myself in is. And I think one of the reasons why I'm so comfortable with it, because I'm uncomfortable all the fucking time. I'm voluntarily uncomfortable most of the day.

So regular uncomfortable, it's like, yeah, whatever. It's not 196 degrees for 25 minutes. I did that this morning before I got here. That shit's hard. That's really hard. That's like, you're gonna die hard. You're gonna die hard is so much harder than, oh, somebody doesn't like me.

Oh, somebody took my clip and took it out of context. Because you're gonna die of heat is a real thing. It's real. This is what Rick says, like nature is a truth. Like you heat going to die if heat is a real thing. This is what Rick says, nature is a truth. Like you heat up too much, too long, you can die. And you're playing with that a little bit. And it's hard and you do it correctly and you're good. And cardio is really important for that.

Cardio is one of the very best things for alleviating anxiety. And I know there's a lot of studies that have been done on weightlifting and about strength resistance training and alleviating anxiety and I think that's a fact. I think that's true as well. But there's something about I might die cardio. I might die cardio is a different kind of cardio. It's like if you can swim and to the point where you do laps in the pool and you do laps in the pool where you're like,

I don't know if I'm going to make it to the end of that fucking pool. And when you do laps to the pool where you're like I don't know if I'm gonna make it to the end of that fucking pool and when you do get out of that pool regular life is way easier period full stop no discussion I think when people are talking about cardio they're engaging in maybe zone two type cardio which is a walk which is very good for you very good for you by the way I do zone to cardio I will put I will get on the assault bike and not go very fast And wait that's the minutes and watch television you know I will do that But I also do Tabata sprints on that motherfucker where I do 20 minutes sprinting 10 seconds Excuse me 20 seconds printing 10 second rest 20 seconds, and I do that in

sets of four Four eight reps so eight reps, four times. It's only like 20 minutes. I do something similar. I do a- Fucking horrendous. I like to walk or hike. I use one of these vests.

I don't have any relationship to them, but a Morpho makes these ones that are really like close to the body. Yeah. And so I use that because you can really move easily in that. I don't like a heavily loaded military vest. It doesn't feel right to me.

And if I load from the back, like a Ruck, I feel pitched forward. So I like how smooth goes military vest. It doesn't feel right to me. And if I load from the back like a rock, I feel pitched forward. So I like how smooth it goes. Yeah, nice smooth feel. And then I'll walk far that way, but then I'll do the same thing. Except I do a little different. I'll go 10 second sprint, 20 second rest,

do that eight times. That's my Friday morning HIIT workout. And I feel like I want to die by the last one. But I think that I have an observation that's not backed morning HIIT workout. And I feel like I want to die by the last one. But I think that I have an observation that's not backed by any formal science. I'd like your thoughts on it. I've known a lot of people who are kind of compulsive, anxious, or even outright addicts,

who then get really into running or any kind of cardio long distance endurance type sport. And they seem to, again, not a scientific study, they seem to get and stay sober. Whereas I find that while weightlifting is really healthy and I really enjoy it, I've observed that it can create a kind of like tension in the body that doesn't like release completely,

maybe even builds energy into the nervous system, so to speak. And I do know a number of people who have had challenges with drugs and alcohol. I'm grateful that I haven't had those challenges, people who have had challenges with drugs and alcohol. I'm grateful that I haven't had those challenges but have challenges with drugs and alcohol and they've gone the way of just weightlifting and they've been like multiple relapsers.

Now that is not a knock against weightlifting. I think people should do resistance training and cardio but it is kind of remarkable that people that do a lot of cardio seem to successfully beat their addictions. Right. And maybe it's just the time involved, who knows? It's a lot of time involved. It's also overwhelming.

So it takes over your mind, your body. I think if you're doing a marathon, you're just, you're grinding for hours. You're doing three hours if you're really fast. What's the longest distance you've ever run in a single bout? I don't really run. So the longest distance I've ever run is only a few miles.

I did a 5K once, my friend, well, Cam Haines, you know Cam. Cam had a 5K once in Vegas and it was, I had zero training. I didn't run at all. And I did, I was like, wow, this is hard. And at the end of it, I was like, that's a lot harder than I thought. I thought I was in pretty good shape. I'd be able to run, what is it? Three point something miles.

Yeah, he's a sicko. He's got a broken foot right now and he's still running on it. And- Yeah, he's gotta get surgery, but he can't have surgery right now because he has elk hunting season coming up. He was on his way to Alaska when I last texted him.

He sent me some meat, which I'm very grateful for. It's delicious. He told me that, I said, you know, what's the pain level in that foot? Cause he showed the x-ray, it's still very broken. And he said, I said, you know, 10 out of 10 being max pain, like excruciating, cannot stand it. He was like, I don't know, maybe a four or five,

but he's running. He's like, yeah. He came and stayed recently, he stayed at my house a few times and I've set up some archery in the backyard and I like, he can use my sauna, cold plunge. I love it when people just spontaneously come and stay, Lex has came and stayed recently. He stayed at my house a few times and I've set up some archery in the backyard and I like, he can use my sauna, cold plunge. I love it when people just spontaneously come and stay, Lex has come and stayed.

And I wake up and this literally, we did a post about it, but literally how it happened was I woke up in the morning, hadn't yet started work. So that was added later to the post. And Cam Haines is on my roof, shooting arrows at my targets, which he's moved beyond the fence line. And so the neighbors are like, who's this guy? This is Los Angeles, right?

So he's a wild man. I love him. Hitting bull's eyes the whole way through, just to rub it in. It's just bizarre that he's running on that foot. He knows he's going to have to get it fixed. But if they get it fixed, he's probably going to have to be off of it

for like six weeks or something. I know, and I keep trying to get him to do some of the, what I know to be very useful things like BPC 157, et cetera, which yes, there isn't any clinical data for it. It's all animal data. But so many people will report feeling better. It's very hard to get now. But he's got a gap in that broken foot.

He needs to mend that thing. Yeah, they need to put some screws in that bitch. But he would run on stumps. Guys like him and Goggins will run on stumps. Goggins got another knee surgery recently Yeah, he's had a but I mean his he's bone-on-bone and he's essentially getting surgeries to shape his bone So his bone-on-bone is flatter because you know when you have bone-on-bone it distorts and grows weird So what does he do? Does he stop? Does he get a fake knee? Nope, he gets it cut flat and put he gets a wedge cut in the bone and shifts it down.

So it's flat. So bone on bone, at least it has the correct geometry. Like what? He's a phenom. Well, there's a guy where in his, whatever it was, late twenties, took a look at his childhood. Was like, well, I wasn't, you know, being, you know, my nervous system shaped to be a great athlete

or a Navy SEAL, et cetera, looked at everything he had become. And he basically said a big, hard no. He's like, whatever it was that happened before then, he was going to shape his nervous system by putting in endless hours. So- Yeah, in his 20s, fat.

In his 20s, right. So it runs counter to everything that we talked about earlier, which is that one has to start early, but he's making up the time and then some, you know, I saw a poster where he was, where he couldn't move his legs for whatever reason, maybe just had surgery.

So he was running on his hands on the treadmill. With his feet positioned, kind of like plank position. Yeah, he's a ridiculous person. It's amazing, super inspiring. He's like a noun and a verb and an adjective. I just wish that there was stem cell technology and regenerative technology available now to help his joints stay healthy.

Because the problem is that will, that mind, that power is eventually going to break down his body and mechanically it's not going to work anymore. Titanium is pretty good. This is what the neurosurgeons understand. Like, you know, you take out a little flap of skull, you replace it with titanium. It's a lot stronger.

You know, I mean- You mean titanium of skull, you replace it with titanium. It's a lot stronger, you know, I mean. You mean titanium knees? Is that what you're suggesting? Yeah, or other biomaterials, right? They're close, they're real close. There's been some studies recently that regenerate cartilage, you know, and so I think they're real close. I think if you could just hang in there

for a few more years, they're probably going to be able to fix things. Yeah, exosomes are exciting. BPC 157, while only animal data, it's very clear, it has the propensity to encourage fibroblasts, which is cells that make up things like tendon and cartilage, et cetera, and can really repair tissues. I mean, you know, and I certainly have experienced,

it can help repair things. Yeah, it's legit, it's legit. And unfortunately, the FDA is trying to get rid of it. There's a lot of things that are really good for you that unfortunately are not regulated correctly. Yeah. It sucks. Well, my wish, I mean, I have no plans to go to Washington,

but my wish is that things like BBC 157, some very interesting, I would say not cutting edge, but even further out like bleeding edge things like pinealin, which can help with regeneration of the pinealocytes are incredible for sleep potentially. Like we need these things explored. And everyone for a while was like peptides. Oh, it sounds really kind of gray market weird

and it can be, but let's face it, GLP-1 agonists, Osanthic monjaro. That's a peptide that existed for years in the fitness and bodybuilding industry. Now it's probably approaching a trillion dollar industry someday. That has a tremendous windfall in terms of the amount of money you can generate from it.

BBC 157 can be made by virtually any laboratory and it's probably gonna cut back on orthopedic surgeries. And that's the gross reality of a lot of this stuff. A lot of this stuff is gonna cost companies money because people won't be taking pain medication, they won't be taking anti-inflamm pain medication. They won't be taking Anti-inflammatory medication they won't be getting as many surgeries and that's where it gets fucked up because the health care system the business of health care is

really set up not Looking at people is like what's the best way and the most efficient way in the the most? Cost-effective way in terms of for the actual patient to treat them. No, it's how do I make the most money from this person? Well, we did an episode on back health and strengthening the back and back pain we had Stu McGill on and it was wild. I've never received emails and stuff like that.

Like half of the people or more saying the McGill big three helped me so much, stabilize my back. He's got his three movements. You can look it up on YouTube. They're easy to find there. But it's all about, and he's in great shape in his late sixties, incredible, incredible shape.

Chops wood, he's up in Canada. So he basically is giving behavioral tools to stabilize and strengthen the spine and deal with back pain. And then the other half, we were like, what is this? You know, you can't treat back pain. There's a pseudo science. And then everyone telling me how much benefit they got

out of McGill's big three. And then the war among the physios, like the physios, that's an ugly field, I'll tell you. And I asked someone, why is this field of exercise physiology so brutal? I asked Andy Galpin. And it turns out it's because it's very hard to get a lot of clients.

And the moment that somebody comes out with knowledge that's very useful for a lot of people, they're potentially taking away their livelihood. Right. So, you know, to say nothing of the pain treatment world, we had a guy on our podcast named Sean Mackey, he's an MD, PhD, runs our pain clinic at Stanford. And he talks about the biopsychosocial model of pain.

And he's very open-minded. Meds work in some cases. So does your emotional or cognitive interpretation of the pain. What does it mean? So do things like meditation. Like he's basically trying to incorporate all these different things.

He's very holistic for lack of a better word. But if you look at most pain docs, they're not that evolved. They're just like, okay, this is what you use. It might be addictive, it might not be addictive, but they're not ever talking about strengthening the systems that gave away in the first place. So I totally agree with you.

Like there is no replacement for self-care. There's just no replacement, no pill, no potion, no injection, no nothing. There are things that can help, but there's nothing that can replace behaviors. Cause our nervous system was evolved for these behaviors. Yeah. Yeah, listen, man,

it's always a fascinating conversation with you. I appreciate you very much. I'm really glad you have your own podcast and that it's so popular. And I love it. I listen to it all the time. Thank you. And you put out a lot of great information, man.

I really appreciate you. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you. You've been a great friend to me and a great source of support through a bunch of different aspects of podcasting and supporting the discussions about health and exercise and forcing me to make my cold plunge a little colder

I'm sniff smelling salt all of it. You know, I might be wrong about the cold. I don't know No, but really right back at you You know There are very few places in the world where you can have a real discussion about real things from all the angles and know that The person sitting across from you is being truly open-minded about it. So really appreciate you my pleasure. I appreciate you too All right, bye everybody.