The Joe Rogan Experience - #2283 - Billy Corgan

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Billy Corgan is the lead singer of The Smashing Pumpkins and host of "The Magnificent Others" podcast. The Smashing Pumpkins' latest album, "Aghori Mhori Me," is available now.  www.smashingpumpkins.com This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com/JRE Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, [phone] or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD).21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS).1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $150 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 3/16/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! What's happening, man? Good to see you. Thank you for having me back. My pleasure. How many times a day do you get bombarded by the whole Bill Burr thing?

When it gets into the family and people I haven't talked to for 20 years. Then you have to break character and tell the truth? No, you know, the thing is, this is what's crazy, okay, you want the whole setup story? Sure, sure, sure. So where I tape my podcast is in one of Howie Mandel's buildings, and he has another building in this area. So I was working on something, and I was supposed to go on Howie's show that day. And they said, Howie will meet you out in the street or something for whatever reason. So I go out in the street, and the first thing Howie says to me when he sees me, he goes,

here comes Bill Burr. And I go, you too? Like do you know this story? And he said, no, I don't know about it. And I said, you know? Like, do you know this story? And he said, no, I don't know about it. And I said, you know what? Heck with it, I'm just gonna tell it on your show. So don't ask me anymore. And I went on the show and I told this story

about how 10 years ago my stepmother came to me and said, do you know who Bill Burr is? I'd never heard of Bill, didn't know who he was, because I don't really consume much popular culture. I had no idea he was a famous comedian. He could have been the lawnmower guy. Looked up Bill, first thing I saw was like, oh my God, he looks just like Daddy. When I was 18 years old, on my 18th birthday, my father told me, you have a half-brother

that I sired at the same time as you, whose name is Bill. So suddenly these facts come together, my mother telling me these stories. I talked to my dad subsequently about it, and he was very cagey about it. And when I said, why won't you tell me where this person is or who this person is, he said, I'm trying to protect you. So when my stepmother had told me, it kind of made sense, like, well if my half-brother is the super famous comedian, my dad in a way wouldn't want me to know because he wouldn't want me to feel like I was number two because Bill's I know it sounds crazy, right? That's why we try to protect you

Well, I don't know so so fast forward to how he's saying something on the streets I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna say something and I swear to God hand in my heart last time I was with you in California I almost pulled you aside after we were on and I was gonna tell you the story because I knew you knew Bill and I was gonna back channel see if there was anything to the story from Bill's side. Wow. So imagine seven I think six or seven years since we talked on your show. Yeah I don't know. 2018 somebody said to me today but so anyway sorry to talk to you but the point is is so here I am fast forward I'm just

sick of seeing memes of my face with Bill's, so I just decide on a spur of the moment, you know. So Howie of course loves it, but I said on Howie's show that first time, I don't think Bill's my half brother. I don't think there's anything there other than like an uncanny resemblance. Fast forward, the thing comes out, it gets a little bit of social media and then it goes away and I think, good. And Bill didn't say anything so I figured Bill was kind of like whatever, it gets a little bit of social media, and then it goes away. And I think, good. And Bill didn't say anything, so I figured Bill was kind of like, whatever, it was a mild amusement.

You know, he could have made a joke out of the whole thing, and he didn't. So then Howie calls me, and I'm in LA working recently, and Howie's like, we've come on the show, Bill's gonna be on. And I said, is Bill cool with it? Oh yeah, no problem. So then I go there, and it's like, it turns into this thing that you see happening on camera. It like it's weirdness times. It's like a like a skit, but it's real and And bills on me then bills on how we and it gets just go. Okay, so I just told you I basically everything I know okay. I have people I've known for 20 30 years coming up to me going What do you think and I said, I don't I don't I don't think we're related

I mean, yeah, there's a resemblance said, I don't think we're related. I mean, yeah, there's a resemblance, but I don't think we're related. Well, did you get a DNA test? And I'm like, no, I don't. There's nothing to get a DNA test for. Well, I think he's your brother. So people that know me and I'm telling them I don't think he's my brother, now they want a DNA test to prove it. That's how much it's taken on a life of its own. Do you think it's just because they want a DNA test because it's fun if he's your brother? No, no. They're convinced. For real, for real?

Yes. Really? For real. I swear to God. I mean, people I'm close to, people that were at my wedding, I'm like, they're like, no, you need a DNA test. Did Bill's dad know, well, did your dad know Bill's mom? No, my father wouldn't talk to me about it at all. Okay, some more context. My stepmother in that same time ten years ago when she told me that she thought Bill Burr was my half-brother, this guy I don't know, right? I mean, it just matched up. Hey, do you know Joe Polanski? And you look up and it's a famous comedian. That's, you know, I mean, that was... Right, right, right. So in that same thing with my stepmother, she told me that she thought my father had sired 12 children.

Whoa. You know... All over the place. All over the place. He was a traveling musician and a whore to his own admittance. So it kind of makes sense. He once told me he'd slept with a thousand women. So 12 out of a thousand, you know what I mean? Normal odds. Yeah, the math of a thousand, you know what I mean? It's the- Normal odds.

Yeah, the math are- Actually pretty good. Yeah. And so, when I went to my father and I told him what my stepmother had said, he got really cagey and wouldn't tell me anything. He promised me that he would write down the names of the illegitimate children on a piece of paper so I could find them after he died. Oh my god. And he died, he's died, and there's no paper. Oh my god.

So now I got people wanting DNA tests because they're convinced that Bill is my half-brother. Is Bill willing to do a DNA test? I think that's ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? It's like... No, you have to do it. No, no, that's what I'm saying. I mean, first of all, to Bill's credit, he's could well everything you saw on camera was his I think his general

Irritation on the thing, but he also kind of finds it funny because he's a comedian. I thought it was a skit I thought you guys put together a skit. I really did I thought you got because I thought you know Bill does a lot of acting I thought you guys were just fucking around you like pro wrestling. I thought you guys just decided to Control the world. Let me put it to you this way Have you ever seen it, and I'm assuming, but you tell me if I'm wrong, two guys get in the ring to roll around a bit, right? Okay.

They're bros, they're going to roll around a bit. Emotions kick in, and next thing you know, somebody's tapping somebody out. Right. Do you ever see that happen? For sure. Okay. Yeah. So, in the heat of that moment with Bill and Howie egging it on, you know, like the emotionality

of the thing came out because it's sort of a weird thing. Like, we're suddenly in the middle of a situation. It's like a meta situation. Right. So, yes, on some level we were playing along, but then it starts to become like, wait, this is kind of weird, and then it starts to to kick in and then Billy Bush is in there And it just it took out a life of its own. So what I'm saying is is There's enough there that people are all over me to come up with more answers, but you see what I'm saying

I do see it's like it's spun out of control into its own thing now. It's a DNA test problem Oh, which is a bit on its own Like we're gonna do like a live stream with I will do it here. Me, you and Bill. You know what I mean? Well, people would trust you if the two of you got together and just both took a DNA test and found out you were brothers. I don't think Bill's my half brother, but he looks. Well, listen, there's a simple way to find out. I'll finance it. How much is a DNA test? How much does a DNA test cost to find out if someone's your sibling? Jamie, let out it can't be that much money it's 2025 I'll do it we'll get it sponsored yes maybe 23 and me but it didn't they get sell out to somebody

somebody buy them 200 bucks there you go I'll pay 200 bucks to find out why wouldn't you want to know if I thought somebody was my half-brother I'd be like I don't think it's necessary I found out Sebastian Manasalco was my half-brother, I'd be like, for real? I don't think it's necessary. If I thought that Sebastian Manasalco was my half-brother, I'd be like, I can kind of see that. Maybe. Again, all I know is, I don't think, but when I look at him, he looks just like my father. Right.

He doesn't look, we look similar-ish, but when I look at him, he's got the same thing as my dad had I don't know how to you would know if somebody look like you sure yeah, so that's where it's freaky for me. Yeah, and and You know if you want to play the game one step further you got two world-class communicators people It might argue against me calling myself world-class communicator, but I've been doing it over for over 30 years your world-class so It's not too crazy that you'd have one guy go this way and one guy, you know what I mean? Not at all.

No. Especially when you consider how many different ways you've gone, like not just smashing pumpkins, but pro wrestling. And now I'm entering your game, which is podcasting. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Being independent is good, but you should never be afraid to ask for

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stuff and you easily could have been a comedian as well. I don't think I'm that funny but you're funny there's a lot of people that are professional comedians that aren't as funny as you. Okay I assume you know Carrot Top. Sure very well. Okay so Carrot Top and I become friends recently. He's great. Love him. This is total sweetheart. Sweetheart of a guy. And really master. Genuine. Just a great guy to know. Yeah. But as you know, because you do this for a living,

suddenly everybody wants to start pitching you bits. So I made the mistake of pitching Kara top a bit. I thought I had a good bit for him. And he didn't respond, you know what I mean? And then I texted him like an hour later and said, hey, just get that bit I sent. He goes, yeah, that's why I didn't respond, you know what I mean? And then I texted him like an hour later and said, hey, did you just get that bid? They said, and he goes, yeah, that's why I didn't respond. Ha ha!

Yeah, people get tired of that. Also, it's like most comics, they want it to be their idea. Like the whole idea, what you're doing on stage is essentially like, here's the world from my eyes. I see, yeah, it's like somebody telling me how to write a song, I get that. Right, it's one thing for another, like comics, we give each other tags. Like if someone says something something I said, you know what else you can add to that at this

Oh, I see we're a buddy of mine was doing this bit on the the guy who tried to shoot Trump and we were Bantering back and forth and we came up with like the poor perfect line like oh There it was already his premise and his bit Comics add to stuff for each other for fun. It's like we just, we sort of, you're tossing the ball around in the green room and then someone will come up with a new line for you. We'll do that, but no one ever says, hey, you should go on stage and talk about this.

Yeah, so that's, so I've had a couple professional comedians, Carrot Top, preeminent among them, kind of let me know you're not that funny. It's probably not that you're not that funny. It's first of all, you send a text. Premises in text are terrible. Oh, right, okay. Like you really have to be-

The tone, tone is- Yeah, it's everything. And you really have to be there with the person, and you really have to like say it the way you thought it, and then they get it. Because the text is just, unless it's just genius, unless it's just like rock solid structure, like, oh my god, this joke can't fail.

We do have a movie idea that we're working on. Oh yeah? And it's a good one. What is it? I can't give it away. I'll tell you privately, but it's a good one. You and Carrot Top? Yeah. Oh nice.

That he likes. Okay. He likes my movie idea. Yeah. I'm telling you a lot of it is that comics don't like people coming to them with it with a premise They don't they they only want I And they only want help from other comics generally. Okay, I get that Yeah, it's just one of those thing and even then it's touchy like I would never help someone. I don't know I would never go up to him. Hey, you should say this like never never never never never

Yeah, it's gotta be like your friend. They know you love them You're fucking around yeah, talk you can say did you ever try I say that you know you know what you left out like you forgot I know oh I forgot about that. Yeah, that's a big part of the bit. Yeah, I never tried stand-up So that's you could do it. It seems terrifying to me. Yeah, so singing on stage. You could do it It's a lot easier to scream with you know 50,000 watts behind your voice You know then then tell a joke and bomb. Is it though? Because you could suck at that, and then it's terrifying too.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all hard to do. Anything at the highest level, it's hard to do. That's true. You're doing arena shows. I've watched a lot of people perform in front of arenas singing.

It's hard. That's a hard thing to do. Most people freak the fuck out. Yeah, I don't know. That part that part doesn't bother me strangely. Well, that's why you're good at it. I feel like I'm I kind of know what I'm doing up there for some reason. Well, also I think it's like there's a build-up, right? You start working in small clubs, you make your way to larger places, and then eventually you sell more and more records. Like Smashing Pumpkins is like

they burst on the scene and sort of keep getting, you guys kept getting more and more records. Like Smashing Pumpkins is like, they burst on the scene and sort of keep, you guys kept getting more and more popular, so you kinda got accustomed to it. Yeah, you do normalize to the insanity of standing in front of 10,000 people. Same as comedy, you normalize. What's the biggest show you've ever done in comedy? 25,000.

That's a lot of people. Yeah, me and Chappelle, we sold out the Tacoma dome And we're we're standing backstage. I'll never forget it. He looked at me like right before he goes on stage He was not a lot of motherfuckers get to do this We were just laughing how fun much fun we were having 25,000 people was crazy in the round too in the round. Yeah, it was very fun though. It was very fun I actually know Dave from way back in the day He's the best when he first first kind of burst on the scene we used to hang out a little bit So I feel like it's cool that I knew him like what year is this like?

Er like remember he did like a couple things on SNL like really early on or he was kind of around TV It was like when he the first year he was on television I don't remember I'd see him in New York and he was hanging out with some other, maybe it was because he was hanging out with SNL people. And I'd see him out in New York back as, gosh, late 90s, early 2000s, and so I knew him when, I don't want to say he was a nobody, but I, like, he wasn't famous yet. He wasn't a known, I'd seen him on TV, but he wasn't like a household name like he is now.

Right, right, right. And so it's, so there was this one night where I was out, I did a benefit for Roger Waters and military vets. It was amazing in New York. It was all these guys who were like single, double, and triple amputees playing Pink Floyd music. And so I did this concert with Roger. So afterwards somebody came and said,

oh, Chappelle's in this hotel, you know? And I hadn't seen him for a few years. And I said, well, I know him. And you could see people think, like, you don't know him. You know what I mean? So when he came by, I was like, ah. It was like that moment of like, see, motherfuckers, I do know him.

So what a great guy, though. He's a genuine person. He's another sweetheart. Just a sweet, sweet guy. Easy to hang out with, very fun. Oh, yeah. Guys with that kind of mind, it blows my mind. Because they yeah, I mean, guys with that kind of mind is just, it blows my mind. Because they just, I mean, I just don't know, I could sit and listen to it for hours.

He's also kind of a legend for what he did. You know, he left Comedy Central in the height of Chappelle Show, passed up on a 50 million dollar deal, went to Africa, hung out there, and then came back and didn't do stand-up for 10 years. I didn't know that he didn't do stand-up for 10 years. Didn't do stand-up. I didn't know that he didn't do stand-up for 10 years, part of it. He would do stand-up occasionally for free. So what he would do is he'd bring a speaker to the park and set up a mic in the park in

Seattle and just start doing stand-up. And everybody would be like, holy shit, it's Dave Chappelle. Was he making any money or was he just? Nope. Nope. Just living off of his Chappelle money. He had a ton of money. I didn't know that part. He made millions of dollars from the show passed up on 50

But probably remember that and you know every became a big conspiracy thing. Yes, it became a conspiracy He was saying no to the Illuminati Are you sure that's what happened I I kind of know what happened because the people that were running Comedy Central back then, I had dealt with, there were, it was a, nice folks, shouldn't have been running comedy. They shouldn't have been telling comedians what to do. And they wanted to kind of-

So they were back to telling comedians what to do? It was, well, it was a situation where a bunch of non-creatives had gotten involved in the process. I'm sure you're familiar that it happens. This is so dear where a bunch of non-creatives had gotten involved in the process. I'm sure you're familiar with that. This is so dear to my heart. It's disgusting. It's the worst aspect of show business. You start dealing with money people and then they start doing something that they're not

supposed to be doing, which was like adding, changing, directing, moving ideas. And then you're dealing with literal morons that somehow or another got this job and they're telling you how to do What you're doing, which is what is the best sketch show in the world and still still popular It's as good as any sketch show that's ever existed and they only did two seasons So he just decides I'm just gonna be an artist. I'm just gonna hang out I'm not gonna make any money He would do like show up at open mic nights. So they'd have open mic nights for like musicians, play folk songs and at the end of that like midnight he would pull up and start talking and by

15 minutes into set everybody had told everybody that Dave Chappelle's there. So then the place is packed. Yeah. He did this for like 10 years. I didn't know that part. Yeah. He just fucked around. You'd hear about him just showing up places and fucking around love that and then somewhere I think it was like 2013-14 starts doing stand-up again. Yeah, and then boom Yeah, that's that's really how it all went down it's it's really a testament to his power of his talent because my wife who's 32 she loves him and it's so cool because like we went to

see him I think at Radio City Music Hall. And it's so cool because it's like you know I'm 57, she's 32, it's like that he can speak to both of us. So right right to the heart. It's really a rare gift. I mean he, you know you got a picture out there Richard Pryor who was you know from Illinois like myself and my father loved Richard Pryor and who was, you know, from Illinois like myself. And my father loved Richard Pryor, and so because of my father's love of Richard Pryor, I paid a lot of attention to Richard when I was a kid. And he strikes me, he's got that transcendent ability to somehow almost heal the country

with his messaging. Yes. The bits aren't just bits. Murphy had that too in his own way, but to me, Chappelle's more in the Pryor mode of, like, somehow he can address issues that are uncomfortable. I have that too in his own way, but to me Chappelle's more in the prior mode of like somehow he can address issues that are uncomfortable. Yeah. And I know a lot of people have issues with what he says, but I ultimately see what he's

trying to do is heal things. Yeah, very much like prior. Whereas Eddie Murphy was just really, really funny. You know, it's just really, really funny. And it's still to this day, I'm like, why doesn't that guy come back? He, he did this one thing when he got the Mark Twain award where he did this whole impression of Bill Cosby finding out that he gave away one of his awards because of he was caught up in the scandal. And so he's doing a Cosby impression and it's fucking genius. It's dead on. He's doing like brilliant

standup and he hasn't touched stand up in 25, 30 years. I mean you would think he would just do one victory lap tour. If he wanted to it would be sold out. Talk about stadiums. Oh my god. And I guarantee you that guy would be the best. He was so fucking talented. But just decided it was just too much, I'd rather just do movies.

Which is kind of crazy. But Prior never did obviously. Prior kept doing stand up the entire time. Has anyone ever try to pull you in the movie movie orbit. Yeah Yeah, I know action hero or yeah, I'm not interested. I'm not interested. They only offer me parts like a serial killer So I always turn it down Yeah, there's been a few tempting ones, but no I don't have that kind of time and I also don't have the desire to do it It's not something I enjoyed. Sitting on that set all day seems like a...

It's a lot of work. It's hard. And to be a real good actor, like a really good actor, you know, the rehearsing and the practicing and the going over the character, it's like I couldn't do it because I don't have the time. It would require everything I have. If you really wanted to do it right,

if I really wanted to do a role in a movie where I played somebody, I would have to fucking really spend time not doing anything but that. It's just not, that's not my jam. There's people out there that do it. I'm glad they do it because I love movies. But I don't want to do it. Did you watch the Oscars? I did not. Me neither. I never watch award shows. I don't think you should give away awards for art. I think it's silly I don't get it. I think it's dumb. I think it's all Really who's making money is the people that are putting it on television. I mean, that's really what it is

It's just a big money grab. They're all just selling advertising and everybody's wearing a tux and it's like well certainly the public's They're all just selling advertising and everybody's wearing a tux and it's like well certainly the public's growing disinterest in awards Yeah, who's is some indication that? People no longer believe in either the integrity of the process or the or the and maybe the intent of the process Right well the integrity of the process and the intent are both compromised right because there's there's people that Like you could kind of guess just by the subject of some movies whether or not they're going to win an award. Because you know people feel obligated to address this very important message. The guy who won Best Picture, I was actually in talks with about five years ago, because

he had made some really cool movies. He made one on a cell phone call, I think it was called Tangerine, about prostitutes working the streets in LA, and he got two street workers, I believe, and then he cast them. So it was a movie, it wasn't a documentary, it was a really beautiful movie. And then he did that movie called The Florida Project,

where he, at the end of the movie, they actually snuck into Disney World and shot stuff, and somehow Disney let it go. Really? Yeah. But it was kind of about the social milieu around a place like Disney world like what goes on outside the gates People living in motels and kind of perpetual tourist economy Kind of living hand-to-mouth and kind of using the tourists the white whale of tourism to just get enough money Because there's always some turnover, you know, whether it's running scams and stuff

So he made a really beautiful movie about that as well So I was in talks with him for a while about doing something and then it just didn't go anywhere. Like what kind of scams? I can't remember because it's been a few years since the video. It's just the idea that anywhere there's a tourist economy, there's money to be made. Right. You know, there's the guy standing on the corner selling brochures or hustling you into a van to see where the stars live. It was kind of about that.

Right, right, right. It was about a cast of characters living in the shadow of this idealistic place. Right, just like those Hollywood tour people that you would get in LA. Yeah. Yeah. Those were the weirdest fucking people. Well, I always get offended when I walk down

Hollywood Boulevard and they think I wanna go on it. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know what it is. I feel like I don't wanna go on your tour. You look like a guy. Totally. You would get on the tour. I don't wanna go on it. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know what it is. I feel like, I don't wanna go on your tour. You look like a guy. Totally. You would get on the tour. I don't wanna go on your tour.

Just got off the boat. Yeah. Just came here from Nebraska. Totally, yeah. Like, gee, I wonder where the stars live, you know? That's such a creepy thing to do. Just drive around and point. That's where Ben Affleck sleeps.

But they've been doing it since the 30s. Yeah, forever, yeah. I mean, I have some of the old brochures, you know? See where Greta Garbo lives and all that stuff. It's just always been weird. Well, back then it was even weirder because those were the first stars. Well, back then, I mean, they went way out of their way to turn them into gods, you know,

they airbrushed the shit out of every photo and they cover up scandals. There's that one famous scandal where one of the top male stars, maybe it was Gary Cooper, Cary Grant, ran somebody over in a car. Really? You know about that? No. You might wanna look that one up.

I know the fatty Arboca one. No, it was a top A-level star. I think he was drunk, ran over somebody in a car, and somebody from the studio went to jail for like seven years and took the rap. Whoa. So that the star could stay out, and the studio paid the guy like a stipend to go to jail. Wow.

It's a very famous story. So some guy did seven years or something. That's crazy. You know, there's a similar story about that in China with the bodies exhibit. You know that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a woman who was married to a mayor of one of the cities in China. And this woman who was married to this mayor, the mayor was having an affair with a TV newscaster. And she got the TV, he got the TV newscaster pregnant. And apparently there was a confrontation between the woman and the wife and the lady winds up missing. She

gets scrubbed from the internet. I mean she's scrubbed. There's only like a photo of her on the internet. And then all of a sudden in the Body Works exhibit there's an eight month pregnant woman who they believe is this newscaster. Here's the other part. The woman who's the mayor's wife is also the manager of the local plastination factory where they take the bodies and they immerse them in these solvents and turn them into statues. This woman was the manager of the place that produced the woman with the eight-month fetus in her body. And you can still see it, like it's on tour. You can go see this lady who was most likely murdered.

So then she didn't just kill that lady. She poisoned some British businessman. So she poisons this guy and she has to go to trial. Well she doesn't go to trial. Some other woman goes to trial who doesn't like anything like her. Raises her right hand, the whole thing, goes to jail. So she probably paid some family off, some poor family, I'll give you a million dollars, give up your daughter, she goes to jail, everybody's rich, it's not a bad jail, she's going to do yoga, play checkers. Have you heard the ones were like

because there's so much plastic surgery in Asia where guys are suing their wives because They marry some oh, yeah, I think it's hot and then the kid comes out and the kids not very good Jawline's totally different different nose. Yeah, there's a lot of plastic surgery over there in Korea. It's nuts They do their eyes and this like strange somebody told me as much as 75% of the women in South Korea have surgery Yeah, is it really somebody who's Korean told me that I don't know that Jamie We need to find this out. This is important information because last time I was in Korea I was like wow these women here are really hot like this was like Woman after woman after woman and somebody pulled me aside said bro. That's like that's just all plastic surgery. That's not real

Wow That's not real Wow As many as up to 50% or higher maybe some people have said a lot of liars a lot of them ladies are lying about it Up to 50% or higher. Well higher could be like 75% I like I like this whole new business of like plastic surgery tourism where it's like cheaper to get on a plane I was gonna turkey and get somebody was recently trying to talk me to go to South Korea to get some work done on my face. It's like, so like what?

I guess the idea would be you could go and recover over there. Your neighbors don't have to see you with bandages over your head. No, I think it's the idea. Your face all swollen. It's cheaper. Yeah, cheaper. Cheaper and better because they can do stuff there that we can't do here yet. Oh, really?

What can they do there that we can't do here? Apparently they have some new thing that's unbelievable What is it? Something it's they try to explain to me doesn't make any sense some kind of new Facelift that's not a facelift or something a face like a non-invasive facelift. Oh, it's a relative of mine through marriage Chinese relative and He's in that business and knows the Koreans over there in LA and all this. He was saying in five years, this will be the number one thing, so you might as well

get to Korea now. This is the stuff I hear when I'm sitting around the hot pot dinner, you know? Non-invasive face love. Isn't that weird that one of our biggest fears is that your face sags? Yeah, I don't know. face up in that weird that like that one of our biggest fears is that your face sags Yeah, I don't know I mean I don't know how I would feel if I wasn't in the entertainment business, right? I mean, I mean you're in a cosmetic business. Yeah some level you know some level. I guess it kind of helps you a little being uglier You know, I never I never thought of you as ugly. I'm not I'm not attracted to men per se But I never thought you were unattractive

Definitely less attractive than I used to be. That's just time and boos and not so much sleep. Success creates a glow around a man. It does a little bit of a glow. Right? Yeah, again. A little bit of a swagger. Well, just age beats us all.

You don't win, nobody wins. Everybody looks worse at 80 than they do at 20. Yeah. Just how it goes. Yeah, I'm 57, so you kinda look down. I'm 57 too. Oh, are you? Yeah.

When's your birthday? August. Okay, I'm older than you. I'm March. But you know, you look down that row and you're like, Yep. Like, am I gonna be all right when I get to 80? You know?

Very few people are. You know, there's a few people at 80 like wow. When you're calling UFC like 972, or like, I don't know what the number would be but I'm worried about Bruce buffer Because Bruce Bruce buffer he puts out so much energy well I was telling the guys the other day one day He's just gonna be in the middle screaming someone's name, and he's just gonna fucking check out like right in the middle Boom his eyes will roll back, but that's for any performer. That's the way you go out

Oh, you go out on your shield, right? That would be amazing I don't want him to die love him, but if he did die that way I'd be like what a legend what a legend The buffers right both of them. Oh, yeah, isn't it crazy that they didn't know each other until they were like 30 I only have you know, we had a brother. I only have you have see 313 is back in Vegas It won't be paradise for one of the light heavyweights in the main event Don't miss out on any of the action at DraftKings Sportsbook the official sports betting partner of the UFC Alex Pereira defends his light heavyweight title against Magomed Ankhaliev But that's just a cherry on top of an amazing night of fights

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Please play responsibly. On behalf of Boothill Casino and Resorting Kansas, 21 and over, age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario, new customers only. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.co.slash audio. I only have one Michael Buffer story

if you wanna hear it. Sure. So I went to see Holyfield Lennox Lewis at Madison Square Garden. Oh wow. And I was hanging out with all the cool people at the time. So I'm in the fourth row and it was infamously a draw. It was almost all English tourists

that had come in for the fight. They were booing the national anthem. I mean, it was a pretty riotous atmosphere. And I don't know anything about fights, but it was a pretty boring fight. And Lewis seemed to be a little bit more agile because of youth and all that. Anyway, so right when I,

whatever they're doing, HBO, they're over there in the corner, they're doing their bit, you know what I mean? They're talking before they go to the scorecards. And a guy leans forward the ref to tell someone in the second row, might've been Don King, and I heard him go, it's a draw. Right? So I knew it was a draw like 60 seconds before they announced it. And I was with a lot of well-known people and I said, run. And they're like, what do you mean? I said, we got to run. And I started grabbing people and we ran out of Madison Square Garden. And we're almost totally out the building, you know, kind of where you get to the concourse part and you hear the decision and it's like, and people start, like, here comes the riot

vibe. Really? So somehow we ended up because it got so- Was it because the decision was bad? Well, the English people didn't like that it was a draw. Oh. Because Holyfield was on the older side, and- Right.

I don't know, it's not a well-renowned fight. I can't remember it. It was just a draw. It was a stone cold boring fight, but because it was a draw and all these English people were mad, Don King was involved, so it was like all that typical brouhaha that was going on at the time. Anyway, so because of the, suddenly the riotous or potentially riotous situation, the police started like making people go different ways, like funneling traffic or something. You know, it was almost like

they got like code red or something cuz like suddenly got really weird So then we couldn't get out of the building So somebody was like somebody recognized somebody in our parties follow me and so then next thing we know You know, we get we end up like in the VIP backstage part where it's safe And there's and there's you know, Michael buffer on a chair and He wasn't talking to me, but he's talking to somebody, and all I heard was, that's bullshit! Like, in that voice, that's all I remember.

That's bullshit! So was he talking about the decision? He thought the decision was bullshit, you know? Letterman's card was heavy for Lewis. Wow, 117-111, Harold Letterman, who's always dead on the money. Harold Letterman was always right. So they were saying, as it got called, they're like, this is a travesty. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm not a fight aficionado, but I thought Lewis was slightly better.

Wow, I forgot about this fight. I completely forgot about this fight. There's so many fights from this era that were incredible. That was an amazing era for heavyweights. And this is when Don King was still running everything. Did they ever rematch? I don't I honestly don't remember. You don't think so? That's bullshit. He's still trucking. He's still trucking. He still announces huge boxing fights. I wonder what he's like, like, because do you ever get that, like, like, like somebody wants you to do their bar mitzvah or anything? You ever get those requests? No, those don't make it to me. I get those requests? Will you come do my bar mitzvah?

Who won this one? Is that the rematch? Had to be Lewis, right? I would imagine Similar letterman card said a similar card. Let's see if they robbed in twice. They gave it to me. Yeah. Yeah Well, they got there we got the rematch No, you get this thing like hey, will you come do my right? Right? I wonder what Michael Buffer gets to show up somewhere Yeah, it's probably like Saudi Arabia. They have them come over there and introduce someone's like Half a million half a million probably more depends, you know, I mean like... You know in my business we call them privates. Right. I saw Stone Temple Pilots. They played Dana White's 40th birthday party. Yeah. And there was no one in the room other than UFC employees and they put on a show like it was a fucking sold-out arena

I mean full blast went they didn't go through the motions at all. It was a Phenomenal show that means Dana paid him. Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of money. I mean, I love I love those guys But they were so professional. It was like it was so impressive and Because they were so like powerful on stage everybody just started paying attention Because it kind of broke out in the middle of this party. Where this birthday party, we're all standing around tables, eating food, having fun. I've done a few things and it's always a bit awkward.

Yeah. Which is weird, because they're all paid gigs. Right. But something about a paid paid gig feels different. Yeah, there's a lot of entitlement that's attached to someone paying you to come perform Well, then you see the guy's wife going who's this? All right? There's that to the people that aren't fans like oh no

Yeah Yeah, those are weird gigs cuz then you know how much I? Got one shitty night for a million dollars shitty night for a million dollars. I mean I'd like to tell you I haven't been there but I've been there. Ron White did one last year in Vegas and he was talking about his like I don't I didn't want to do it I kept saying no they kept going higher and higher and eventually got to a point where I go oh fuck it I'll do it and he goes it wasn't worth it he goes it was one of the worst fucking nights of my life. He goes all the one of the worst fucking nights of my life

He goes all the time. I'm doing it. I'm thinking I shouldn't have fucking done this He said they didn't laugh. They barely paid attention. It's like why am I here? But if like you're a giant fan like say if you're a giant Ron White fan, and you hire Ron White But you're like office doesn't give a shit about comedy and they just want to like have fun and drink and yeah Eat hot dogs. Yeah, I went to a billionaire thing once with a guy had hired Diana Ross Whoa had at least be a million dollar gig for her. Mm-hmm, and maybe 700 800 people Wow You know and you're like, wow, I mean basically a private concert with Diana Ross. I mean, that's pretty dope If you were really into it and people paid attention,

it'd probably be fun. Small, intimate concert. I've done them where they're fun. Yeah? What percentage? Less than 50. We don't get, to be fair, or not fair, we don't get asked to do it a lot.

I don't think we're on most people's bingo card for a private event. Yeah. I think my rep precedes me. That's like a Beyonce thing. Although, I mean, have you ever heard some of the numbers that some of those pop people get coming out of Saudi Arabia? Yeah. Like 14 mil and nobody calling us for, you know what I mean? I'd take that phone call. Well, that's one of those things. If like, who is that, the richest man in India, his

son owed a birthday and it was like the most extravagant birthday of all time. Like he spent 50 mil on entertainment alone. Something crazy like that. Oh! God, it's so crazy. That's so much money. Yeah.

I mean, I wish there was a perfect formula for it, but there isn't. Because that's what I mean. I mean, we play, every time we play we basically get paid. I think it was a wedding not a birthday party, right? It was a wedding. Yeah, you got like Lennox Lewis was there Yeah, Lennox Lewis was the announcer Yeah, it's just that's the weird world of Extravagant amounts of money like unbelievable amounts of money where you want a higher

extravagant amounts of money, like unbelievable amounts of money where you want a higher condom to come to your house. There you go. The wedding was $100 million. That's where Beyonce performed. They probably spent over $100 million for Anant's sister Isha's wedding in 2018. The ceremony featured a performance by Beyonce. I mean, if I'm Beyonce's manager, she's not going over there for less than $20, $25. Yeah.

Why not? They have so much money. They won't even notice it. They'll make it back tomorrow in the stock market I don't know. I'm saying that so once you get to that goofy hon. That was a hundred and how many million 190 I'm sorry Billion how much is he worth 16 billion 116? Yeah, you're making 20 million dollars every day probably. It's like rolling in constantly.

I mean you've just had a billionaire in here. Couple days ago. Yeah, I mean you've met your share of billionaires. It's always an interesting thing how they spend or don't spend their money. There's no consistent guide for billionaires. No. I like the Jeff Bezos way. Wear tight shirts, get a yacht, have a hot girlfriend. Let's fucking go

That's what you're supposed to do when you've got 250 billion dollars you're not supposed to be a fucking weirdo and wear a sweater and go visit Haiti No, you're supposed to be ballin go to the Mediterranean popping corks with models, let's go you Get us get a million dollar watch. I have a billion dollars to make that decision, see if I'm not there yet. Well, the weirdest one is billionaires that compare themselves to super billionaires,

and they feel poor. Like, Brian Callan was telling me about his buddy who's worth, I think, $3 billion, and he's like, I really need to fucking up my game. Because he's friends with a guy who's worth eighty billion dollars. So he feels poor compared to his eighty billion dollar friend. Boy, I'd like to be poor like that. The forest for the trees.

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, not not this lifetime. I don't think it doesn't seem like fun. It seems like the amount of stress and energy that must be required to Acquire that much fucking money Yeah Jimmy Chamberlain of the pumpkins the drummer is friends with Jimmy John the sub the sub Okay, so I know Jimmy John a little bit and we were at dinner one night in Nashville

Had it met a place he owns with other people. And one of my buddies started pitching him on some kind of money thing. And I just saw his face change because everybody in the world wants to pitch, we're back to pitching ideas, right? Of course. And Jimmy John knows this mutual friend. So it's not as rude as it might sound coming out of my mouth. But at some point he looks at me and goes, Tommy, you know how I got that money? I made a lot of fucking sandwiches. That was

the way you shut him down. Like, I know what I had to go through to make that money. You just see me as a walking ATM. Yeah, well, it just changes the dynamic of the friendship now to now he's not gonna be able to trust your friend Well, no, he's always nobody trust nobody trust Tommy. That's Tom is a mess Tom Tommy's infamous actually infamous. Yes, everybody fud-mess I've literally been walking down the street in foreign countries and strangers will come up to me and say, oh, you know Tommy He's like he's just a legendary character in the entertainment business. What was he trying to pitch Jimmy John on?

Some kind of investment scheme or something. Because my friend Tommy collects billionaires. Oh boy. I call it, he plays billionaire lotto. He's hoping that when one of them knocks over, they'll leave him a taste. How bizarre. He's like a vampire familiar. Well, what's interesting about Tommy is his uncle was the founder of Hard Rock Cafe.

So he grew up in a family with money. So instead of somebody who you figure was poor and aspirational and want to hang out with billionaires, he actually came from money. So he knows how to speak the language of wealthy people. And so he's kind of generally welcome in those circles where I grew up in the suburbs. I don't know how they roll in that world. And so yeah, but yeah, Tommy, I think he's probably up to about seven or eight billionaires that he counts as friends.

And what does he do for a living? No one knows. No one knows. That's the legend of Tommy. Really? Yeah. And in fact, I pitched Tommy once I'm making a documentary called's the legend of Tommy. Really? Yeah. And in fact, I pitched Tommy once I'm making a documentary called Who the Fuck is Tommy Lipnick.

That's his name, Tommy Lipnick. And he doesn't like the idea. Yeah, I wonder why. It just outed him. But I mean, we don't have time for it. But I could make you a list of 50 people that are super famous, like Bono on down, who have pulled me aside and go, what's the deal with Tommy?

Right? And just the fact that we're talking about Tommy will really please Tommy, but he'll take umbrage. In fact, I have to tell you a story about my father too, but he'll take umbrage with the way I'm portraying him. I'm sure he will. The story I want to tell you about my father was, when I was on your show, I told you a story about how I found a

double-barreled sawed-off shotgun under my father's bed. It was in a guitar case. Right. Well, my father heard the show about a month after I told the story on your show. And so I get this text from my father's when he's still alive, obviously, and he goes, yeah, I heard what you said on Joe's show. And I'm like, you know, you're looking at your phone, like, here it comes, you know, because I think think he's gonna be pissed at me he goes there's one thing you left out of the story waiting text the shotgun wasn't loaded that's all he wanted me to know like somehow I made it better how bizarre if your father sounds like a fucking character he was unbelievable unbelievable what what did he play guitar great. Great musician. Really, truly great

musician. He's the classic guy that should have made it, it didn't. So when I made it, it made the whole thing really weird. Because he looked at me and said, how did my schlubby kid make it? And I didn't. He must have gotten lucky. He must have done something. Because if it didn't work for me, how could it work for him? So that was a weird thing. But he was talented. I mean, he really was talented. That's great. Did you feel resentment? Did you get along with him after that? My father had a lot of issues with drugs. It was always kind of like it can be with addicts. It was like depending on the day. One day he would tell me I was the greatest thing that ever happened to him and I was the number

one son and da da da and two weeks later he's telling me he wished I'd never been born and I should have been aborted. So it was a weird, it was weird. It was a weird thing. So that's why that story's funny to me because he didn't mind that I told you about finding a sawed off shotgun. He minded that I implied it was dangerous when he made sure that it wasn't loaded so it was okay. That's the way his brain worked. Do you believe him that it wasn't loaded? Yeah, yeah. He was, he should have been an arch criminal or something, but he didn't have the nerve. So he just became a guitarist?

No, he was a drug dealer and he used to run drugs and guns for the mob. Really? Oh, he would do stuff like, Melrose Park is kind of an infamous city just outside the Chicago city limits where a lot of the mob wise guys lived. And he was friends with the kid of a wise guy. And the kid would dabble because he was protected because his father was a made man. So we'd go over to that guy's house for hours and just hear these crazy stories about the mob and my dad would pick up something in a satchel and deliver it. I was eight years old going

through all this shit. Wow. What a crazy environment. So you're eight years old, he's running drugs and guns. Oh yeah. Wow. Did you see a lot of shit? I saw a lot of stuff. But it was like when adults are trying to hide stuff from you, but not really. So for example, they would stay in the basement all night

and party, whoever he was with, musicians, whatever. So I'd come down at night, and there'd be Coke everywhere. And rolled up 20s on black Sabbath mirrors. I was like seven, 10. Oh my God. So I had a feeling, call it intuition, I had a feeling that he wanted me to clean up but not the mirrors.

And I was like, what's on the mirror that you left behind? He was like, oh, that's, have a cold or something. But yeah, it's good you didn't get rid of it. And they're like, why do you need the rolled up 20? Oh, it's just easier to, you know, it was like, so you knew it was bullshit, but you're 10, you don't know what coke is. Right, right, right. So you don't have any concept of what they're doing, but you know something's going on.

This was constant. This was normal. Yeah, my dad would do stuff like he'd take me to lunch with his mistresses and stuff and introduce them as his friends. Wow. So it was all kind of in plain sight weirdness. But you know, you'd be driving down the street and suddenly you were in a drug deal and it was just...

Whoa. He told me he was shot at nine times and stabbed three times. Holy shit. Yeah. You want to hear, it was one of my favorite stories. So the band had a van, he had a van and we bought it off and it was our band van for a while. And then after we didn't need it anymore because we got too big, he wanted to buy it back so

we sold it to him. So one day I went over to his house and if you know, this is the driver's thing, right behind the driver's, where the driver's head would be, but in the middle of the car was a bullet hole. So I said, did somebody shoot at you? He goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened? Exactly. He's like, yeah, I was stopped over there on Narragansett and some guy came up and I thought he needed something like a dollar or something. So I rolled down the window. As soon as I did, he put a gun through the window at my head. And then, you know, I hit the gas and sped off. And so as I went to try to shoot me, but then he missed and the bullet went in behind my head and I got away. That's the story he told me at the time.

So years later, the story came back up somehow. He goes, oh, that wasn't the real story. Here's the real story. So same setup. He's sitting somewhere, but it was a drug deal. He goes, oh, that wasn't the real story. Here's the real story. So same setup. He's sitting somewhere, but it was a drug deal. He rolls down the window to make the drug deal. Guy puts a gun at his head. He does hit the gas. The guy does try to shoot him. But because my father's mad now, he spins the van around and he tries to run the guy over. And the guy's trucking down the street and the guy ran into a gas station. So my dad came barreling at the gas station at full speed in this van and he was going to run the guy over.

And he said he reached a point where the guy was going to, if the guy stopped, he would run him over, but the guy leapt a fence and the only way to kill the guy was to have to run the fence and ram into a house that was next to the gas station. So he hit the brakes and didn't run the guy over. So that was next to the gas station. So he hit the brakes and didn't run the guy over. So that was the real story. So back to the kid thing, excuse me, that's why it's so hard to pin this whole thing down because there's so much smoke, you know? Right. Like he did tell me there was another kid named Bill, that's a real thing. And when

he told me when I was 18, he lied and said he didn't know where the kid was. Well when my stepmother brought up the whole Bill birth thing later, and I asked him, he admitted that he did know where the kid was, but he didn't want to tell me. What did Bill think about this? Like the possibility that his mother had an affair with your dad? I don't think Bill gives it any credence. That's my sense of it. Okay.

He just thinks it's bullshit. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know what Bill thinks, youence. I mean, that's my sense of it. Okay. He just thinks it's bullshit. I don't know, I don't, honestly, I don't know what Bill thinks, you know what I mean? Because, because- I can see how you would think it'd be possible, because your dad was insane. Your dad sounds like a fucking maniac. I mean, the only, the only way, the only way it would- Like a Scorsese movie maniac. Well, put this way, if a person doesn't believe that somebody is their father, not their real father that they grew up with, and I do know people who've had that. They grew up with somebody and they, in fact,

it just happened in my family. Right. That a cousin of mine found out that her father was not her father and she's in her sixties because of a DNA test. Oh my God. So it is possible that people can find out later in life, oh, by the way, that guy that you thought was your dad, he ain't your dad. Here's your real dad, right? Right. So it does happen, but I don't you thought was your dad, he ain't your dad. Here's your real dad, right? Right.

So it does happen, but I don't get any sense from Bill that he believes that's possible. Got it. So the only way would be possible if Bill grew up in some kind of weird lie, you see what I'm saying? Right. And I don't believe that. Right, right. Well, I don't know how much he's talked about his family. But that's, I just can't imagine a kid coming downstairs

and seeing Coco all over the mirrors and Black Sabbath albums and people blacked out and empty booze everywhere. Like this is a normal thing at your house to have these wild parties. Yeah, but I think a lot, to be fair, I think a lot of people grow up in that atmosphere. I think we just don't hear about it

Yeah, but not a lot of people grew up with the dad that's running guns and drugs for the mob. That's true That is true That's such a crazy way Like we would have conversations like we would have conversations because you know as you get older you start to ask questions Right. Yeah, so I'd say dad aren't you worried like if you get pulled over You know because he would carry like a lot of fucking weed in the car just for his own personal use. He smoked constantly, like, my whole childhood. Like, I mean, I just remember joint after joint all day at the dinner table in the car. I'd contact high and the whole thing. So finally, at some point, I said, Daddy, aren't you worried about if

you get pulled over? And he, like,, old cars, when you pop the trunk. What is it called? The hood. He had figured out some system where if you put weed in a thing full of whiskey, he said the dogs couldn't pick up on the scent. So there was a compartment in the engine compartment, like a thing that was full of whiskey and then he would put a waterproof baggie with the weed in the whiskey and so

that if a dog came around the car, it would never smell it. That's hilarious. So it was like life lessons, you know, from Pop. But dogs can only smell one thing. They're only looking for one thing. When you train a dog, you train a dog either for a bomb or you train them for heroin. You don't train a dog for everything.

Like what do you got? Three barks for Coke. The way they train dogs is it's one thing that they're trained to smell. Oh right, they have one. Yeah, if they're looking for bombs, they're only looking for bombs. They're not gonna stop you for weed.

Yeah, I don't know. Which is like the dumbest thing to train a dog for. If you train a dog for weed, I mean. Well now, yeah. Now, it's the dumbest. to train a dog for, if you train a dog for weed. Well now, yeah. Now it's the dumbest. But they still do. Really? They still have weed dogs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If they smell weed, they'll call the weed dog. Is weed legal in Texas? It's not. It's weird. It's decriminalized. There was actually a lawsuit that Ken Paxson tried to stop Dallas from decriminalizing weed and they just lost in court. So Dallas now, marijuana

is decriminalized for personal use. It's stupid. It should be the whole country. It should be legal, just like whiskey is. Don't do it if you don't want to do it. But you know, you should probably know what the effects are and we should probably study what the actual correct doses per person. like we know with drinks. Like one drink is one drink, right? You know what it is. You go to the bar, you get a shot of tequila. That's what it is. It's one shot of tequila. Everybody's pretty much, it's standard. With weed, you don't know what the...

Oh, I see, yeah. You don't know what's the right amount. Like, should I take two hits or three hits? You can build up a tolerance, like your dad, you're smoking weed. Like if I smoked weed all day long, it'd be a fucking mess I'd be paranoid and freaked out. I'd be like you want to get me but he was He just kept doing it that's it's even crazier It weed back then was not weed today

It's you probably could get some weed that's commensurate with weed today Acapulco Gold or something wacky, but generally... They have all these crazy strains now, right? Isn't that the... Now they have scientists, botanists got involved in the game and they're making super weed. I noticed one thing, because I was in LA for a couple months this winter and when they first, whatever, decriminalized in LA, it seemed like everywhere you went, everybody was smoking

weed. It became like a thing. You couldn't go anywhere without smelling the telltale smoke. And now it seems to have calmed down. And I think it's almost like now it's like Holland back in the day, where it's so normal, it's no longer a thing to like openly smoke weed. So I think it's gone back to a, oh, it's not that big a deal, which I think is probably best. Because there was a beer there where you would go there and everybody was stoned. You couldn't get service at a restaurant. I mean, it was like people were staring off into space. Edibles. Yeah. Well, for sure, you're going to have like a normalization period after a while, or it's like, weed's normal. It's just like, everyone's not drunk all the time,

even though you can get liquor everywhere Yeah, choose when to imbibe and when not to or not to at all. That's you're supposed to have choices You're an adult you're an adult human being the analogy I always make is imagine if it was the three of us in a room Just just us three and we were the only people on earth We lived on an island and Jamie just decided he doesn't want to smoke and weed and so Jamie passed the law And he wants to lock us up if we smoke weed Oh, I see. That's just as ridiculous as

300 million people and one adult decides that the other 300 million people should be allowed to smoke weed Like do it if you want to do it don't do it if you don't want to do it But you can't putting people in a fucking cage for doing something that they want to do that harms no one but you don't want them to do is fucking insane. It's just insane. I grew up, because of my father's life, I mean, I don't know what age I became conscious of my father doing drugs constantly, but let's say I was five years old, so that's 1972. So I've been in weed culture since 1972.

Jesus. So I always thought it was- Vietnam War days. Yeah, yeah. And I met all those guys too, you know, these guys with PTSD and all that stuff. Wow. So I guess what I'm after is I never understood what the big deal was. And the only thing it freaks me out are people that are really into weed. Like, you know what I mean? Like the 420 crowd. It's the whole identity. Yeah. Like that's their identity. That freaks me out are people that are really into weed. Like you know what I mean? Like the 420 crowd. Like that's their identity. That freaks me out.

Yeah. It's a crutch for some. It's a tool for others. It's a creativity tool for a lot of people. Carl Sagan was one of them. Carl Sagan was his donor? Oh yeah, huge donor. He's got one of the best quotes on states of consciousness that are available to people

under cannabis that are not available any other time. See if you can find that quote. It's a brilliant quote. Yeah, Carl Sagan, I mean, he kind of had to keep it under wraps a little bit because marijuana was really illegal back then, but he still wanted to talk about it sometimes. It depends on the person It's like everything else. There's some people that should not drink they drink and then their eyes turn to shark eyes They do they're gone and they go away

That's it. The illegality of cannabis is outrageous and impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight Sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world." That's not the quote. That's a quote, but the other one had to do with states of consciousness that you could achieve. It's a very stoner-like thing to say. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you talked about it a bunch.

But either way, he was a regular cannabis user. It's supposed to be like everything else. You could have wine in your house. It doesn't mean you're going to drink wine all day every day. You should not be high all the time. I just don't want the 420 people to hear me. Well, it's like those people like the MAGA people or like the fucking Insane clown posse people like it's just like it becomes their whole thing

That's the thing something wrong with going to insane clown posse show But if you want to be a jugalow and that's your whole identity is being a jugalow jugalow is a whole you know It's a whole thing. We've done this because of the N NWA, we've done business with the Juggalos. They seem like fun guys. They're great. No problem with them. You know, Violent J, as he's known, was in the NWA for a hot second. Oh, really?

And he's kind of refired his promotion now, Juggalo, I guess, JCW, Juggalo Clown Promotions or something. I'd love to. So a lot of my wrestlers wrestle for him too. Oh, okay. I didn't even know he had a wrestling promotion. They did back in the day. They used to wrestle, I know they wrestled for WCW and TNA. So they were wrestling at the highest level for a while when they were sort of in the 90s times

when they were on MTV and all that stuff. I just love that they have like a carnival of outcasts. All the outcasts have a home in the Juggalos. They have these gatherings of the Juggalos. They look like they're having the best fucking time. They're all like-minded people, all partying together. Yeah, but it's freaky when people admit secretly being Juggalos. Have you ever had that experience?

They pull you aside? A friend of mine, former porn star Sasha Grey, sent me a picture of her at like 17 in the juggalo makeup. Oh wow. 17. And you're like, this is so out there. Juggalo makeup? Do they dress, do they do like insane clown posse?

They do very specific makeup, the juggalos. The juggalos, do they have different makeup than the insane clown they do very specific makeup for the juggles Do they have different makeup than the insane clown posse or is it the same kind of makeup? It seems to me. There's this there's this kind of a particular way. They do the jugelow makeup Jamie Can you please Google jugelow makeup? Yeah, I think it's a black and white. I don't know if there's rules, but it's yeah Clown makeup was like like that guy right there. Yes, but that's violent J on top there Yeah, that's about Jay there But like they'll do the makeup kind of like how Jay is okay

So some of the people in the audience choose to make their face up I don't see anybody there with face makeup though in that picture hot Oh, yeah, there you go sweat and washed off sweat enough to make up see like the girl there That split tongue that dude in the middle that's a fucking commitment that's a commitment to never having a real job up top that's a lot you gotta really hate your parents split your tongue like that how about the guys who split their cock you've ever seen that yes who does that do you remember the early days of the internet? I don't know how much you were on the internet in the 90s, but there was a page called the style project

Do you remember that? Don't remember that. It was all like some of the most fucked up thing things that this dude could find on the internet and He had a whole website and you would you go to the style project you'd get like just insane and he had a whole website and you would go to the style project, you'd get like just insane fucked up stories about people. And one of them was Body Modification Extreme. And I became friends with the guy who ran the site, who's actually that arm wrestler, Devin Laureate, I think that was his brother or someone he's related to, was Shannon Laureate.

I became friends with him and he gave me access to his website and it was like a members only access where you could like- So you got the VIP tier of Splitcocks? Oh my God, it wasn't just Splitcocks. It was crazy stuff. Like some people, they decided that they wanted to get their arm chopped off or their hand chopped off.

So they devised a guillotine. It was body modification extreme. So it was all different people doing different things like putting like horns in their head and splitting their cock and putting... and one of them was this horrible story about this guy whose boyfriend turned him into a eunuch, wanted him to cut his dick off for him and be a slave and look. Oh my god It's like detailing how this guy cut his cock off Yeah Donnie Fargo who was a famous wrestler he was famous for him as a party trick. He would put a nail through his cock party trick he would put a nail through his cock. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhh I had a David Blaine on and he made me stick an ice pick through his arm. Yes, like you should.

But you know you can survive an ice pick through your arm. You can call it a trick, but a lot of things David does is just it freaks you out because like you should. But you know, you can survive an ice pick through your arm, but I had to back it out because I hit a nerve and he made me reinsert it. And so I reinserted it and then the original one just started bleeding and it got like a little bit of a hematoma, started swelling up. We had to get the medics and we had SEALs working for us. They checked it out. Because of all this body talk, my wife loves all sorts of weird body talk. And she wanted

me to send you a message because she's literally about to have a baby like right now. Oh, congratulations. So we were somewhat concerned coming in because it was possible I may not be able to come because of her about to have this baby. So when we were talking last night, I said, please don't have the baby today. You know, I want to be at Joe's show. And she said, you tell Joe that if I start to have the baby, I expect him to give you some of his net checkpoints so you can get home. It's a very, very rich person joke. That's hilarious. What does that have to do with body modification? Nothing?

Because she loves talking about this type of shit. Why does she like talking about that stuff? I don't know. In my family, we didn't talk about anything. Sex, you know, was all just kind of implied. Oh, I see. You see what I'm saying? I grew up in a family where nobody hugged, nobody kissed, everyone hated each other,

and nobody talked about the secrets of life, you know, good or bad. Was all kind of in the shadows, you know what I mean? And she grew up in a family where it's like, cause she has five brothers and a sister. So they talk about everything, like to the point where just like at dinner, like you're talking about all this like weird body stuff. I don't want to be graphic cause it turns me off, you know, but they seem to think it's funny. When did you learn to hug people and be like, outwardly nice?

It's funny you ask me that. I didn't grow up with my mother. My mother went crazy when I was four and I never lived with her again. And we started to become close again when I was in my twenties. And I remember this one time where I walked through her door and it was that thing where I wanted to hug her because I never really hugged her my whole life. And I just made this decision at 24, like I was going to hug my mother and give her a kiss on the cheek. And it was like, that was the opening of this other life where people hug and kiss each other, you know what

I mean? I mean, obviously I had fool around with girls, but it was only within the context of being romantic. I had no physical affection in my life outside of that. Now my kids are all over me and I got nine and six year olds, so it's like I'm used to kids like, you know, rug rats climbing all over you. But I didn't grow up in that at all. Like I had no... The idea of affection was alien. In fact, when I first started chasing girls at 17, 18, you know, girls want to hold your

hand or hug you in the car and I was like, it's so freaky to me. When did you relax? I'm not sure I ever did. Well, I gave you a hug when I saw you today. It seemed pretty normal. No, I'm actually very naturally affectionate person. And it's nice to give you a hug and it's nice to see you and it's nice to love on people that you admire and are your friends. And that's the great stuff of life. But then I came very late to like, you could even see I'm just uncomfortable. And then, you know, I'm sure you know Howie Mandel, you must. I mean, Howie with his, I made the mistake

of hugging Howie once and I mean, I mean, you know, I was like, kill this cat, you know? Yeah, it's like you electrocuted him, like you tased him. That poor bastard. It used to be you could touch knuckles with him. Well, he'll touch knuckles. He will. Touching knuckles again. I'm close enough to Howie to touch knuckles. He stopped touching knuckles and then he would do elbows.

You would touch elbows and then he got to air elbows. He would just kind of like do that and then put it down. I am a lead singer so I do some of these things. But meanwhile, he's hanging out with us in the green room at the comedy mothership and then he's going on stage and there's people comic before him has the same microphone. They're spitting into it. He's holding on to it. See I'm I'm I think I'm secretly a germaphobe but really secretly.

He just talked about it. You know, like Howie, though. Howie's like... That's another level. He talks about it, though. He knows it's a problem. He just can't overcome it for whatever reason and he manages to sort of like have it and still work his way through life. Like he was fun to hang out with. It's not like he's freaking out about other stuff. Like he was cool hanging out with just talking. I had him on my podcast and we did talk about it. It hasn't aired yet But we we talked about all his I guess phobias would be the word. Yeah conditions. I mean, there's all these letters

You know adhd ocd Yeah, and that he's very open about it to his credit. Yeah. No, he is Yeah, he talks about it and it's you know, it's been a battle for him But it's just like it's so odd because he's so personable. Like you expect that someone like that would be like a recluse, wouldn't like people, like, get away from me everybody. But he's not. He's like super friendly. Super friendly. Except when he puts you in front of a professional comedian who's kind of irritated that you're there and claiming you're his half brother.

Oh, yeah. That was probably a bad pairing. I feel like both of you are kind of a lot in a good way I would have one of you on by themselves. I wouldn't want you and burr together. Oh, he's he's such an alpha I mean, he's he's just one of those guys. He just can't help it. Yeah, we have to make fun of everything too many ways Oh, yeah, that's a fucking great idea. What about this? Right. He can't help himself. Yeah one point he looked at me. I actually I was wearing this coat He goes where'd you get that like a Moroccan Bazaar? It's like a regular cool. This is a very expensive coat. It's like a normal coat. I understand that seems normal I look at North Face or something. But I'm asking you this in an empathetic way, but

Because you're a professional comedian So maybe it's different but when it when a professional comedian puts their death ray on you and wants to make fun of you, it's a very particular feeling. It's like getting carved up by a chef. Right. You know what I mean? Because they're so good at Zorro. It's kind of cool. It's like, wow, I'm being insulted by Bill Burr. You know what I mean? It's kind of an honor.

But at the same time, it's really fucked're like they know exactly where to poke you. Also you can't fire back you'll get killed Right if you fire back, that's what I'm saying. He's gonna chew you apart. Yeah, what am I gonna tell him like make a little joke? Yeah, there's not much you can do other than laugh along with it It's just have fun with it. Just let let it make fun of you. Have fun. That's all you can do. But it feels like a death ray. Yes. It's the best at it. He's the fucking best.

I just found out, I just found one the other day from quite a while ago. I'm gonna send you this, cause this is like young, fresh-faced Tony Hinchcliffe. It's fucking hilarious. And this is just like off the cuff. They bring in these dudes and he starts roasting them. Just random dudes?

Yeah, just two guys.'re they team up and they start talking shit to him and he just eats them alive. Put your headphones on. This one's hilarious. Alright, here we go. He's the best roaster on planet Earth. Nobody's better than Tony Hinchcliffe. That's why I kill Tony so funny. Part of the reason is he's so fast. Did you get it, Jamie? Yes, one second. I'll get the volume up. Okay. What the f*** you got on wrestler shoes, bro?

You guys are mean. Jimmy Neutron granddaddy right here. You guys look like a before and after for a product that doesn't work. What does ADD stand for? A dose of diabetes? Okay. I wasn't ready for any of that. You guys are wearing sweatpants and sweat skin. You guys just completely giving up on Pussy, is that right?

You guys are just... Alright, baby, Doughboy, not me, I'm out here. Doughboy? Wait, what? His name is Doughboy. Doughboy? Yeah. I spell it D-O-B-O-Y. Yeah, I had a feeling you'd misspell it. You guys are my favorites. Two chins and ASAP Rocky Road. Wow. Wow.

Just off the cuff, out of nowhere, and he does that all day long. So he'll do that in the green room. He just turns on people in the green room, but it's fucking amazing. We have like, when we do these shows like Tuesday and Wednesday night or whenever we're there, where everyone's in the really Tuesday and Wednesday nights are a really good night at the club because all the comics that are traveling on the road on the weekend They come into the club to hang out during the weekday And so they'd be like eight or nine of us in the green room just talking shit about each other and

Tony's just cutting up left to right this one that one. It's oh, it's so much fun He's the best at it though. You do not want to fuck with Tony I'm gonna say right now. I don't think he's my brother. He's definitely not your brother. You don't look anything like your brother. It's a completely different gene line. Now he'll make fun of me for saying I'm not his brother. So did Bill know that you were going to be there with him,

or was it just like how he just decided to put two of you together? I got the feeling that Bill wasn't really given the heads up. Yeah, probably. It was a little bit irritating to him. Bill gets easily irritated, but that's also why he's so funny. Like he gets mad. He gets mad at everything. You know?

Yes, and my mind doesn't work like that, so it's hard. Like I would have a better time understanding like a rocket scientist than a professional comedian, I think. Really? Because the professional comedians I've known personally a little bit, like Bobcat Goldthwait and Eric Caratop, their minds are so different than the average human mind. I think the way they process information and they're looking for something that, almost like a meme, it like coalesces this whole set of ideas. That's what makes it funny, right? You can, it works on all these different levels at one time. The great comedians, like Dice to me is the greatest and Dice will tell a joke, it works on like eight different levels. You know, it's like high, low, middle.

Do you know what Dice's best stuff is? You want, like people don't understand that dice is literally one of the best live performance artists just random Street, oh, I watch him you mean when he just goes up people Oh, it's a little ends that these people wanted a photo with them, and they don't know who he is the face Yeah, you want the face wants the picture, and he just goes these fuck It's so it's so uncomfortable to watch. You start pulling your fucking clothes off, like no, don't do this. Like what are you doing?

He's the best at that, and he does that for zero money. This is, he's only doing that for fun. That's it. He's just being an artist. Like there's no money in it at all, and he spends all this time wandering around the streets, going to bars and restaurants and just bothering people, wandering up to people on the street in New York City. They're

waiting for the light to turn green. You want the picture? I just love that he'll just double and triple and quadruple down on the bit. He just won't give it up. He won't give it up. Zemuda is the same thing with Tony Clifton. Just the discomfort of it all. Well Dice is the only guy ever in the peak of his fame to try to bomb on purpose and then release it as a 2 CD set. Is that the night comedy died? Yeah. That is so... The Day the Laughter died. The Day the Laughter died. Rick Rubin produced it.

Yeah, yeah. And Rick, who's a fucking maniac, loved the idea. He loved it. Of course he did. He's like, what a great idea. This is going to be amazing. Dice is selling out Madison Square Garden more than anybody alive. He's just selling out everything.

In the height of this, he decides to record on a night where no one knows he's going to be there and bomb. No material. There's talk off the top of his head. Sometimes don't even try to be funny. I've listened to it multiple times and it's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. Its performance are. It's like him on the street going, you want the picture? You know and if look if he couldn't kill regular way I wouldn't respect it Because there's people that do comedy that pretend they're doing like anti-comedy because regular comedy is too easy.

The problem is they're not good at regular comedy. If you're like hilarious at regular comedy, and then you say, I'm gonna freak these people out by hitting them with something. He would do this thing at the comedy store where he would go on stage and see how long he could not talk. Yeah, I saw him do it once.

He'll go like five minutes. Five minutes. He's going to. And no one knows what to do and people are like nervously laughing. But he also could fucking kill, like in the Rodney Dangerfield special, when he did Dice Rules,

like he could destroy an arena filled with people. So it was a choice to do this weird thing. Who's your favorite all time comedian? I'm just curious. God, I don't think I have an all time favorite. I think Prior probably is the greatest of all time, not living, with Chappelle being the greatest living. I think that you have to give credit to Lenny Bruce though,

because he really started the art form. Because before Lenny Bruce, comedy was just a series of jokes. It was just jokes. And Lenny Bruce came along, and all of a sudden he had social commentary, cultural commentary that he turned into humor. The way he described relationships, the way he described marriage, the way he described marriage,

the way he described, it was like completely different. It's like, what is this guy doing? And then I think Prior took that and made it funnier. Prior took that and that honesty. I never connected that dot, but it makes sense when you say it. Yeah, because he was just funnier. Prior was just better at it.

But the door was opened up by Lenny. It didn't exist before Lenny. So Lenny comes along in the 50s, and he's getting arrested all the time in the 60s. He was getting arrested. Well, remember that whole thing where he would just go on and read his court transcripts? Yeah, well, that was the end.

But that must have been really out there. I watched the videos of that. I watched it. You've seen actual, actual? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought it. I bought a VHS tape that was Lenny Bruce on stage. I forget what place it was. I think it was somewhere in San Francisco.

And he was just talking. He was reading his court transcripts and talking about the case. And some of the audiences go, we want dirty Lenny. And he's like, man, man, it's not about that, man. It's about, you've got to understand what they're doing here, man. Like, and he would go back into the court case, but it wasn't funny at all.

It was just him on stage for a long time, just talking about his court cases. But you have to, the thing about comedy is, a lot of comedy, like even from the 80s, it doesn't hold up. It doesn't mean that it wasn't funny at the time. It just means the concepts and the culture has shifted so much and they've become so commonplace that it's not shocking or funny anymore. But it was maybe in the 70s or maybe in the 80s.

And much more so with Lenny Bruce. Because you go back and listen to his stuff and people are dying laughing and you don't even find it funny. it doesn't even make you chuck it's hard to laugh at Lenny Bruce's stuff, but It's because we can't put ourselves in the context of being alive Watching this guy perform in 1962 he read Fox to me still funny though still funny But like his stuff holds yes his stuff holds moms may believe. Yep. Some people some people still hold up, you know Robin Harris still holds up

There's some some old school comedians Like from the 70s and the 80s that are just still like just you could tell there was Eddie Murphy. He was special He was like a special talent like his that still holds up today. But some of this stuff doesn't. And then I think the next big shift, the big change was Kinnison. Kinnison was a giant change. Did you know Kinnison? No. I saw him live a few times.

I was going to say, I think age-wise, it probably doesn't. Yeah. No, I was about 21 when I saw him live. I saw him live once when I was 19 when I was a security guard at Great Woods Center for the Performing Arts In Mansfield, Massachusetts, so I got to see him live there and then I got to see him live at some I think it was like Some weird place in the middle of nowhere and it was like half empty and it was this was like 88 89

so by 89 he was kind of falling off. Because he had just done so much drugs and partied so hard that he was fucking huge in like 86. And then by the time 88 came around, the material kind of dropped off. And then by the time I saw him, it was like 89 or 90, it wasn't so good anymore. And then he died and like did I like 92 I Think he died in 92 car crash right yeah drunk driver ironically because he had jokes about drunk driving But he just I Was always hoping he was gonna come out with a new album and it would be he would be back You know he'd be back to the kinesin of 86

but just the party and the coke and the women and the fucking no time to write. His brother wrote about it. There's a great book called Brother Sam by his brother Bill. His Bill wrote about the childhood, about him getting hit by a car and becoming this maniac. He's like the victim of a head injury. And that's what turned him into that fucking maniac. The childhood preaching is also part of the- Yes. Childhood preaching, tent revival preaching, and he brought that kind of energy head injury. And that's what turned him into that fucking maniac. The childhood preaching as well. Childhood preaching, tent revival preaching, and he brought that kind of energy to comedy.

He was a different thing. I remember the first time I saw him, I'm like, oh wow, that's comedy too? This is crazy. I remember thinking, well, this is a completely different thing. I never thought this was stand-up comedy. He was like, to me at the time, it was like he was the rock and roll equivalent

of comedy or something. Yes. And didn't Guns N' Roses take him on tour or something? There was some, seemed to remember like something like that. Took him on tour. I think Bon Jovi too, I think he was hanging out with those guys too.

He was just, I think Bon Jovi was one of his, cause he had a music video called Wild Thing. Yeah, I remember he was singing. Yeah, he was kinda trying to be a music video called Wild Thing. Yeah, I remember he was singing. Yeah. He's kind of trying to be a rock star for a while. But it's a quick fall from grace, man, because in 86, he's one of the best comics that's ever walked the face of the earth.

And by 89, he's like a caricature of the guy he was three years ago. And I think it's just, it's really hard to maintain Especially in the 80s when no one was famous like how many famous comedians were there? They're like five ten at the most now there's hundreds, but back then like nobody was famous So I was all about getting on Carson that was it was the thing right was about getting HBO special. Okay? That was the big thing Carson was big in the 80s But for a guy like Kinnison, even though he

got on Letterman and he had one of the most brilliant sets ever on his Letterman sets, fantastic. We played it on the show once. It's really good. But I think with Kinnison, it was really the HBO special. It was Rodney's, Rodney Dangerfield's young comedian special first and people got to see him on that. And then he did his own hour special. You're right. Because when Eddie Murphy did his HBO special that was when he just like yep delirious. We had that leather suit. Yep.

I remember high school everybody was like it was all. Norton I've been looking at you and I know you've been looking at me. Yeah he was yeah I mean it's like there was only a few back then though you know and then Dice came along and Dice had a completely different element to it because people wanted to repeat the lines. What's in the bowl, bitch? Oh, the whole crowd would go crazy. It was like they it was rock and roll.

Like they sang along. You know, shot through the heart. It was like it was like rock and roll. Like everybody was singing along. You give love a bad name. They the crowd wanted to say that, and the crowd wanted to say, little boy blue. Oh, he needed the money, oh!

I tried to talk my wife into seeing if we could hire Dice to do our wedding. She wasn't having it. Who knows what he would have done. The vision I had, my wife wanted to do kind of an after party of the wedding. We had it at my house, so the idea was when half the crowd bangs off because it's been a long day, there's still be a crowd that want to hang out and just party. And then dice shows up?

And then dice shows up. At 1 a.m. And then takes the, puts the death ray on me. Right? She just was not having it We used to call we say dice had two dices But my favorite dice was mean dice because mean dice would like find a guy in the audience He knew who could take it who couldn't who's smiling and laughing along it'd be like look at you and just start tearing this fucking

poor fool apart Fun in back then the beautiful thing was the Comedy Store had no audience. So he could go on unannounced, he would show up at like midnight on a fucking Monday night or something like that, and just torture people. For fun, just for fun.

He was only fucking around. He was an old- I'm having Bill Burr PTSD because that feeling when they put the death ray on you. Did it really bother you? No, it didn't bother me. It's just, I- It's uncomfortable.

Well, I'm not, I'm not gonna, what do they always say? Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, right? Right, yeah. Like what am I gonna say? You know what I mean? What was it? Why was he picking on you?

I think because he was uncomfortable about the whole setup because at the end of the day, it's my fault. I'm the one who said something in public. Right. So at the end of the day, it's my fault I'm the one who said something in public, right? So at the end of the day, I do bear the responsibility for initiating this insanity It's taken a life of its own because I I mean I walk through public now and people are like hey It's Bill Burr's brother. So he's got to be getting it the other way You're the brother of that weirdo from the Pumpkins. We were talking about the other night at the club in the green room, we were convinced

it was a bit that you guys were doing together. We were convinced. No one disagreed. No one was like, I think it's real. Most people were like, I think they were fucking around. I think it seemed like they made an agreement. It's somewhere between a bit and reality, and I think that's where it gets confusing. That's why I would use the word meta. There's this moment if you watch it back where Howie

splits and just leaves me and Bill alone. And Howie has a band that plays when he does a show, so the gentleman who runs the band starts playing a really sad piano. And Bill just starts riffing, it's just me and him in this room alone. I mean, I don't know Bill at all. And he starts talking about our shared dad. And it gets really weird because on some level it's like, it's possible, right?

Even if it's 1%, it's not a zero. So that's where it gets kind of, that's why I say meta. It's like, you're looking down a hall of mirrors and you start almost playing with your mind. You're thinking like, well, it could be possible. It's also the two of you guys doing this publicly is very pro wrestling, which is what you love. There's something about- I brought a wrestler with me today who runs the promotions for the NWA. But you know I'm saying it's like there's something about

it it's like is this kayfabe you know is this real is this a shoot or is this a work like what is this? Well Tommy you know Tommy Dreamer. I know the name. Tommy Dreamer famous ECW wrestler went on to work for WWE and now works for TNA. Tommy's the classic salty veteran, you know, seen it all, done it all, you know, been split in half and the whole thing. So there's nothing Tommy hasn't seen. And, you know, Tommy will say something like, it's all a work. It's all a work. Like, basically, it's the cynical view that everything you see in the world is fake. Well if you're a pro-resident.

The president is fake, the news is fake, it's all work. So once you go there cynically, it's hard to back out of that. So I like the, the artist in me likes the discomfort. Yes, that's what I'm getting at. Yeah, I really do like the discomfort. Yes, that's what I'm getting at. Yeah, yeah. I really do like the discomfort. I remember watching Andy Kaufman on Saturday Night Live circa 78 or whatever, and it's that idea that you can you can create a vibration in the room between what's expected and where you're willing to go. Yeah. I have this one friend who was a performance artist,

and she would do stuff like when she was in college, she would just walk in the cafeteria and take off all her clothes. And she would stick a camera in the corner and just film people's reactions. And it was interesting to watch, because one guy would just keep eating his food and no sell it. Like, I'm just gonna eat my salad and just pretend this isn't happening. Like, every human being goes in a different direction with the weirdness.

Right. So, as an artist, you know, on a stage, you know, there is this kind of crazy power that you have because depending on what comes out of your mouth next to what you do can affect thousands of people. And then, obviously, through a digital medium even more. So there's something about flirting with the uncomfortable, but what makes it uncomfortable is it always has a foundation of truth. You know what I'm saying? Yes, I do know what you're saying.

Yeah. If it didn't have a foundation of truth, it would just be silly. Right, right, right. The discomfort comes from like, oh, there's something you're doing that I recognize in myself, or I know somebody that's like this. Yeah, well, it makes it much more, and it was a 1% chance. Now that I walked through life, we're up into like the 10 percentile in the public's mind. Yes. 10% of the public is convinced we're brothers.

Even if I sat there and told them, no, it's not true. More now. That's okay. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm now after this show. But that's why it's like when you say it's a bit, yeah, it's a bit to the extent that you're playing with the idea. Yes. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. It would be like if I sat down and say, you know, I'm sure you remember the last time it was on your show, but you know, I met you when I was 12. And I told you this whole story about how I met you. Like Carrot Top in his show tells this whole story about meeting Gallagher when he's a kid. Have you ever heard that? No. Gallagher is the Carrot Tops hero.

Sure. And he even does like a thing at the end of his show in tribute to Gallagher. He kind of does a watermelon bit or something like that. But he tells this thing in the show about how meeting Gallagher when he was like 14 years old and Gallagher like actually gave him some advice that inspired him to be who he became. So, but I mean, for all I know, it's a bit. Right, right, right. But he says it was such earnestness, and it does have some, it feels right, but for all I know, it's just another bit.

Everything's a work. That's what I'm saying. So if I came here, oh Joe, I met you when I was 12, you were at an airport, you were so nice, you signed an autograph, you know. There's a part of you that would be like, well, it's possible. I mean, you know what I mean? I got a pretty good memory. I'd be like, what happened?

Where were we? I've never been there. Sorry. I have this plague that I can't get rid of. But if you have that Tommy's perception that everything's work, the whole world gets really weird. Well, I think we're there. Yeah.

We definitely are when it comes to politics and the news. I think our whole culture has been turned into like, where are we? Right. Like, you know, that's why I started calling it like five, seven years ago, a post-truth era. Right. I mean, we've all been in that situation where somebody in our inner circle

will bring up something that we know from a factually presented basis isn't true. I heard so-and-so did so-and-so, and you go, no, that's not true. Let me show you the YouTube clip. You know what I mean? This didn't happen, or no, so-and-so made a left, not a right, but because of what they've

heard they believe it. And you can literally show them something and say, no, no, look, and they're like, well, that must be AI or edited. It's like once somebody becomes convinced of this culture, it's really hard to unconvince them. Right. And so from a performing point of view and somebody who's now also in the podcasting sphere it's like, it's like, is it better to play into into what people want?

Um, like I really appreciate it in Bruce Springsteen's Broadway special when in the first five minutes the thing he basically says I'm not really Bruce Springsteen. Have you ever seen it? No. It's really worth watching. He in the first five, it's when he did his long Broadway run. You know about that? He did this thing where it was like, he would talk and then play songs.

No, I didn't even know he did it. Oh yeah, it was huge. He went on this massive Broadway run. Huh. And the HBO did it and put it on as a special. But he literally, in the first five minutes of talking, and it's about 1,200 people a night, so it's a live audience, and he says in the first five minutes, by and it's you know It's about 1200 people nights So it's a live audience and he says in the first five minutes by the way I'm not Bruce Springsteen like I'm I mean that's my name, but the Bruce Springsteen you think he's like

I don't know how to fix a car. I've never been a factory in my life He's he's Serious Yeah, now I knew that as a performer I could I knew that what I was watching wasn't real but people want him to play John Wayne so bad that he puts his finger in there and says, okay, you want me to be John Wayne? I'll be John Wayne. Right.

But that's audience capture, right? Yes, but now we're in the business of it. I mean, there's obviously examples, historical antecedents over the last hundred years of media, where people would figure it out. Charlie Chaplin or something you know I mean like they wanted him to be the Tramp so he became the Tramp. He wasn't that guy at all. He fed into it and obviously connected to something real in him but he wasn't really a Tramp he was a complete rich lethario. Well you really see it in the dictator that movie the dictator where he has that insane speech at the end

uniting the world. Yeah. Oh, he was out and out socialist, basically. And a brilliant guy. Oh, yeah. Which is really crazy when you think about how silly his character was. His character was this bumbling, stumbling goof. So that's what I'm saying.

What is more valuable, what the public wants from you or what is true? In the entertainment world, we're used to it, right? Like you could play Joe Rogan the comedian at the drop of a hat, because you've done it. And Joe Rogan, the UFC announcer, I'm not saying it's not who you are, but it's an extenuation. We say in wrestling, you turn the volume up to 11.

It's still Joe Rogan. I don't see him as being disingenuous. I can't even think of one time I've ever seen you in any media where I thought that he's not playing, he's still Joe Rogan. I don't see him being disingenuous. I can't even think of one time I've ever seen you in any media where I thought that he's not playing. He's not Joe Rogan. You know what I'm saying? Right. I've done it. I've played other people so but what I'm trying to say is Now we're in this thing. We're like everybody's doing it. I mean everybody We've all looked at some girl on the internet said that's not how she really looks and you gotta go through the Instagram and like you find the real picture. Right. Like everybody's

kind of become comfortable with like a filter over everything. So that's why I mean we're in a post-truth world where the impression is becoming more valuable than the reality. That's really, I think, unprecedented. Yeah, I think so too. But I also think that authenticity is more valuable now than ever before because it's it's hard to find Well, that would be my argument for why my band has risen back up Because we're one of the only bands left that sort of represents some Ideal that is long abandoned right right right. You're not a corporate creation No, we never were right and we were and there's so many of them now you feel like you know like you ever seen uh... kinesis bit about the monkeys

the band monkey yeah i don't give me that was a bit about manson it was uh... and then you know he he does this bit about the monkeys about they were a real fucking band like this you know they were they were pieced together by a corporation the monkeys like one of the, which were great. The monkeys are great. I'm a believer. They have some great songs. But they were kind of one of the first corporate creations. But I actually, on my podcast recently, interviewed Mickey Dolenz. Oh, wow. And we talk a lot about this very subject. It hasn't aired yet. But

he was less interested in the discussion than I was, because my argument would be, is that the monkeys are actually the template that came. Our whole lives the monkeys were dismissed as an anachronistic thing that went against the integrity of the Beatles. But if you actually look now, Beatles versus monkeys, the monkeys are more accurate of what came than the Beatles. In what way? Because authenticity is less and less and less important. Oh. Those who establish authenticity, and I would include myself amongst that and I would include you in that, they're very valuable. But you also know because of your public things that have gone on, you've had to stand there

and take a lot of shit because just even speaking your own truth is inconvenient in a post-truth world. Yeah. Right? So it's actually more politically expedient to create a character that can navigate this new world, and by the way, change on a dime. Right. Does it make sense the way I'm positing it?

Yeah, no, it does make sense. So my argument would be, from a rock and roll historical point of view, is that the monkeys are actually more relevant now in a particular way. The Beatles are this preeminent band. That's not the argument I'm making. I'm saying is the model of the monkeys, which was always held up for a form of mockery. Right. See, this is what you get when you make plastic music.

No, no, we live in the age of plastic music now. Right. The Monkees are the grandfathers of this thing. Right. It wouldn't even be shocking today if the corporation put together a band. No one would dismiss the band because a bunch of people, they cast it together with a bunch of good musicians and created a band. No, I mean, I... We used to want Aerosmith.

We used to want Steven Tyler and Joe Perry, Young coming up together playing music. That's what we used to want. We used to want the Beatles. They all got together, they formed a band, they played in Hamburg until they tightened it up. I used to work with the musician and I was in therapy at the time and I was having a lot of problems with the musician. The musician was from a wealthy family but he didn't bathe and he wore junky clothes.

He wanted people to believe he was somebody that he wasn't. I was actually from a porish family. He was from a rich family pretending to be poor. My therapist had the great line about him. He said he looks like a junky, he smells like a junky but he doesn a rich family pretending to be poor. And my therapist had the great line about him. He said, he looks like a junkie, he smells like a junkie, but he doesn't have the guts to be a junkie. So if in this culture you can pick up anything you want and adapt it without the downside of actually becoming it, well, you can see why so many people without courage or chops, it puts them in a game.

It puts them in this social milieu that we all sort of have to navigate. So now we're into this place where we're talking to a lot of people who believe that they're furry number 463 because that's all their status comes from their digital online group. You know, I'm 57, I got two kids, another one on the way. I work with animal charities and I have a teahouse and a wrestling company and I'm still fighting at 57 with people who want me to be this guy that they believe I am from 30 years ago. Right. And no amount of empirical evidence will change their minds. Right, they're upset with you because you're

connected to something that's different than what they want you to be connected to. Like they don't care what you really are. They don't want you to like pro-wrestling. Sam Kenison's second act should have been get sober, get straight, and go on another hellacious run. Yeah, I suspect Sam was very mentally ill. I never met him, but I think one of the reasons why he was self-medicating so hard was probably that head injury that he got when he was a young kid. Probably really fucked him up because I know quite a few people with some pretty significant head injuries and they're wild and impulsive and aggressive and they do crazy things. Like some of them like they just go off on

benders, they disappear for days. Like I think it's common with people with severe CTE. Because I'm on the board, I'm on honorary on the board of the Concussion Legacy Foundation, which I'm sure you know has some tie to UFC too because you know Chris Nowinski who runs it is my friend. One of the main things that happens with people who start to get CTE early in life is lack of impulse control. So suddenly you have a 40-year-old retired professional athlete who's faster and stronger than 99% of the population who can't control his temper.

That's what makes that situation so frightening for the families because they lose the ability to kind of keep it all reined in. Right, right. That happens a lot with fighters football players I'm sure it happens with pro wrestlers probably happens with a lot of it's getting better I think with wrestling the awareness is helping In our in our organization we forbid headshots That's good. You know the classic chair to the head. There's none of that good my world good. You don't need it

Well for what yeah the pain of watching people deteriorate is so awful. The pain in their eyes, where they just can't navigate life anymore, and every day they have a fucking headache and they're just in hell, and they just want to kill themselves. They just can't take it anymore. And it gets to a certain point where it sort of accumulates over time, where it doesn't get better, it gets worse. Well, I think also, and I'm not speaking from experiences,

but I've heard the stories you take people who are held up as almost like masculine ideals. Mm-hmm. That fall isn't just the fall physically it's the fall of like I'm not the person I'm not the hero that you've made me out to be anymore. I'm right. I'm broken and I there's nothing I can do to put the pieces back together. That's a very hard journey for championship fighters when they are the fucking man they're on top of the world and then And there's nothing I can do to put the pieces back together. That's a very hard journey for championship fighters. When they are the fucking man, they're on top of the world. And then they have to just integrate society

and be one of us. When they used to be the dominant. And then they go to the fights. They sit there with a paunch and a little bit of a belly. Sit there and watch people doing what they used to do. And they don't know how to make a living outside of fighting. They don't know what to do. living outside of fighting. They don't know what to do. Very few of them figure out how to transition into some other stage of life.

The thing about athletics is by the time you're 40, you're essentially done, unless you're a rare Tom Brady type character or Randy Couture who can compete into their 40s. Bernard Hopkins, great example. But at a certain point in time, it's over. And you have to know when it's over. And then what? You put all your eggs in this one basket where, to be a championship fighter like a Lennox Lewis or a Vander Holyfield, you have to be all in. You can't have like a side gig in a blues band. There's no room for you writing books.

There's no room for you, you know, fucking selling things on Etsy. Well, that's it. I know this is a leap of discussion, but that's one of the discussions that's going on internally in my band is I'm 57 and one guy's 56 and one guy's I think 61. You know, it's like at what point do you start to dial the thing down? My brain is wired. I'm gonna go until I run into a brick wall. And they're more like, well, things are pretty good. You know what I mean? Do we have to keep throwing ourselves into the maw of the public?

My argument is, it'd be like going into a UFC fight and not fighting to win. Fighting not to lose. That seems to me far more dangerous. And that's kind of my argument is, in order to be in the arts, you've got to, it's a pail mail all all in yeah all in or all out that's the only gear I know yeah there's the thing that happens to bands when they get to a point where they never make any new music right and they just tour on the old music you're you're touching on the on the nerve of my life. Yeah. How do you navigate that? I just keep working.

I refuse. That's it. In my case, back to my daddy for a second, I watched my dad play songs he didn't wanna play. I watched him doing drug deals rather than make money from music. I watched him give up on his talent, his dream, all of it. I watched it destroy my father. And then,

if you want to even go further in a kind of a mythical way, my success destroyed him again. So, if you've watched that, well, I was lucky enough to have kids late in life. My first kid came when I was 48, and we're about to have one again, 57. Once my kid came, I was like, this kid is not going to look at me how I looked at my father. Like, shoulda, woulda, coulda. So I had to get myself up off the couch and like get serious again. And again, that's that mentality, that killer mentality, like I can still go, I'm going

to go. So until somebody stops me, I'm going to go. Well that's what got you to the dance right? Well even doing the podcast this is you know it you know it's this it looks easy to just sit and talk but it requires prep and mental focus and it's it's a lot harder than I would have thought you know and you know I got money I mean I could sit home I like being in the game I like the hustle I mean, I could sit home. I like being in the game. I like the hustle I like having to learn things. I like having a what do you enjoy about podcasting and why'd you decide to get into it? The quick story was I did a I did a podcast based on an album that we put out with it was 33 songs

And I did a fry heart radio and they were fine and everything But when it all finished I started to kind of enjoy it a bit and I I poked around, as you do, to see if anybody was interested. And it was like crickets. Nobody gave a shit about me being a podcaster, like at all. And if any kind of response came back, I'd be like, well, if you want to tell stories about the 90s and get other 90s artists on to talk about the 90s, we'd be cool with that.

But other than that, we have no use for you. So I just thought, OK, not for me. Not meant to be. And then I did Club Random with Bill Maher. And as soon as I was done with the episode and shaking everybody's hands, they said, Bill's starting a podcast network. Would you be interested in doing this?

And I said, only if I could do whatever I want to do. And they said, tell us what it is. And I pitched them the idea that is the show called Magnificent Others Now. I said, I want to talk to whoever I want to talk to about whatever I want to talk about, but here's the reason and the reason to the heart of your question is I feel there's a lot of people in this culture that don't get celebrated in the way that I would

celebrate them because we've become so skewed with influencers and people who are famous that don't do shit. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of value in American culture that can be celebrated. So you're talking about like a retired fighter or something. So a lot we can learn from a retired fighter. Yeah. You know, you have a showgun armor out here, you know what I mean? To me a retired fighter's like, you think I don't want to sit down with a retired showgun? Right. And ask them about what it's like to be in there

alone? Right. Recently interviewed Steve Vai, great guitar player. And for some reason I had this idea of, you know, like the classic Sergio Leone, two guys at the end of the street with the gun. Yeah. So I said to Steve Vai, who do you fear at the end of, like, who's the faster gun? You know, I mean, that's his. Right. I'm projecting,

but I'm saying we all have that moment, like who do we not want to be in the octagon with? Is it Eddie Van Halen? Who was it? For me? Or for him? For Steve Vai. He didn't want to say.

Really? Well, I think he's a top guy. So why would you want to create heat where there's no need to create heat? I mean, he's at an elite level. I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want to be at the end of the street with him Steve I at the other end of the street now ring they yeah those guys are like Insane redders. I mean, yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm an amateur, you know compared to those guys, so I wouldn't want the

There's something about that kind of shredding too. That's just like so stunning freakish. Yeah, I Mean you do you still train MMA or? I still do martial arts. Okay. So. I don't spar though, I don't get hit in the head anymore. But there's gotta be those times where you see a fighter that just, they just get it.

Yeah. And it looks easy for them and you're like, how is that? Autism. Okay, God bless. But I'm saying, that's the way it is for me with other musicians sometimes. Right. I look at a guy like Steve Vai or Eddie Van Halen, Ring Van, like, how do you do that?

Right. Like what it must have been like when Hendrix burst onto the scene. My dad had a story, actually. He was playing a club in Wisconsin. He never heard of Jimi Hendrix. And Jimi Hendrix was playing the night before they were playing the same club. So one of his boys said, why don't we go up, watch this new guy, Jimi Hendrix, we'll hang out, we'll play at the gig the next night and we'll drive back to Chicago.

So imagine my dad's in a club in Wisconsin with like a thousand people in 1966 or 67 and out walks Jimi Hendrix. My dad said he'd never even heard his music so it split his mind and he said it was so shocking the way he played and how masterful he was at it He said when he got on stage the next night, he felt like he couldn't play the guitar at all It was like it was like an alien instrument. That's and Clapton talks about it other yeah, like Jimmy Hendrix blew Clapton's mind and yeah, whatever when he Roy Albert Hall whatever it was where he was like Oh my god, what the hell is happening? Yeah.

I think it was Bag of Nails or something it was called. He was like, what am I doing? And this is when people were spray painting on the walls in London, clapped in his guide. And here comes, here shows up this guy who was on the Chitlin circuit, is what they used to call playing for Little Richard and the Isley Brothers.

He was just in the backup band. Yeah. And he shows up in England, Chas Chandler, the bassist from the Animals goes, this guy could be a star, gets him a record deal. He shows up in England, Chaz Chandler, the bassist from the Animals, goes, this guy could be a star, gets him a record deal. He shows up in England and next thing you know, he's like, Hey Joe is a number one hit and he's on TV. And it's like, I mean, imagine that. Wow.

So yeah, there are those people that's like, it's so shocking. Van Halen was the same way. I got to interview him once and sit in his studio for four hours. He would just play the guitar and you'd just be like, I don't understand how this is possible. You're doing inhuman things and I know how to do what you do. Yeah. And I can't even come close to doing what you're doing. Shocking.

It's always interesting too, that people have a specific sound. Like you can hear them and you know who's playing the guitar. Like Stevie Ray Vaughan had a sound. Like you can hear him, like when he was doing Voodoo Child, you're like, oh, that's playing the guitar. Like, Stevie Ray Vaughan had a sound. Like, you could hear him, like, when he was doing Voodoo Child, you're like, oh, that's a Stevie version. Like, he played music.

Do you play guitar at all? No. So the one thing I'll tell you, guitar player, to non-guitar players, the thing you learned about the great guitar players, it's all in their hands. Everybody focuses on what amp, what guitar, the gear. It's somehow it's the way they hit the strings. I couldn't even explain it to you.

We call it attack. I have no idea. Steve Ray Vaughan, for example, he played his strings purposely high. He made it harder to play the guitar and still played at that level. Now there's a belief with certain guitar players that the higher you put the strings, the more you have to dig out the notes and that's what becomes more emotive. So imagine he's doing it at that level, even hard, he's making it harder to do what he's doing and he's doing it at that level. Wow. Unbelievable. Incredible talent. I mean, shocking. Again, shocking. It's like, where does that come from? Just has it. We have a photo of him in the tunnel leading up to the stage

in my comedy club of him on stage at that club in 1980. Or the same place. Yeah, I think it's 88, 86. Somewhere in the 80s, he's on that, maybe it's 83, but early in the, sometime in the 80s. And it's like Stevie Ray Vaughn on stage at that club. It's wild. It's just wild to think that he was in this room.

You know, it's Austin where he's from. And think about this, because he talked about it. There was a point in his life where he was dropping rocks of Coke, I think he had whiskey and drinking it, and rotten his stomach out. And he got sober like in the last year or so, his life, and he played even better. And he got sober like in the last year or so of his life and he played

even better. Right. If you listen to the recordings that he made live particularly in the last year or so of his life, he's playing even better. So that's what I say about Sam Kinison. Imagine if he he cleaned up, was able to make that left. And I think, like I said though, I think Sam was dealing with something. I think his demons were internal. The Steve Ray Vaughn thing, what's fascinating to me is, well first of all, he's the only guy that can play Voodoo Child other than Hendrix. Like if you're like in some upstart and you want to release Voodoo Child today, like Jesus Christ, like what are you doing that you're trading you're trading on hallowed ground You know like maybe you can do all along the watchtower because that was actually a Dylan song right maybe But you know why he you know this is my opinion, but you know why he he plays voodoo child so well

Why because he had studied the same guys that Hendrix had studied so he's not imitating Hendrix He's coming from the same wellspring of information. Like who were the guys? Albert King. Oh. B.B. King, Albert King. It's Muddy Waters. It's understanding the way those guys played. So he's not imitating Jimi Hendrix. He's playing from the same spot.

Have you ever heard of Johnny Thunder? You mean talking about from the New York Dolls? No. Johnny Thunder was an artist in the 1960s and he put out a song called I'm Alive and I think it was 1969 and it was also covered by another band but his version is fucking insane. It's so good. You can't believe he didn't make it can I play for you, please? Yeah Right, that's right. His version is the cover. What was the other version of it? Tommy James and the shandels their version

But okay, Johnny Thunder put the heavens on another new commercial. I've heard recently Yeah, well we started talking about it like a year or so ago. My friend Brian Simpson played it for me. And he goes, you're gonna fucking love this. And he goes, this is a one hit wonder from 1969. Never heard of. I'm usually know all this stuff. Fucking fantastic, right?

Yeah. I don't even know where he's from, and I don't know where he's from I can't even identify where he's from by the it the fucking song is fantastic. It's so good It just it stuns you because you hear something like that, and you go. How did he not make it? What hope is there imagine if you were around in? 1969 you see that guy up the whiskey of gogo he gets on stage and plays that song you're like, holy shit But it but to be fair I saw those people in the 80s and I saw those people in 90s and I I

Couldn't imagine that they weren't gonna make it and they didn't Yeah, isn't that weird and that was part of the vibe that my father put on me, which was like well How the hell did you get out right? Of course Well, the fucking resentment must have been astounding. You know, when you're trying and kind of half-assing it and your son comes along and all of a sudden he's doing arenas, you're like, what the fuck? This interview from Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan literally almost has what you guys just quoted,

like, never heard of it? I can't believe it. Right. We talked about this. Yeah. Bob, what year was this 1969 yeah and that crazy that's right we talked about this Bob Dylan so he discovered it and was asking young winner if he'd heard of it that's so

crazy even Bob Dylan couldn't make it huge 1968 okay yeah put it on the radio. Wow. And then disappeared. That's fucking incredible man. Incredible. Because you feel like a guy who makes a song that's that good, oh my god all you need is good songwriters and that guy's gonna be huge. There's a fucking billion dollars in there waiting for you, dig it out. But that's kind of what I was saying before, it's like, it's a curious thing why certain people make it and certain people don't. My father, before he passed away, he told me, you had the one thing that I didn't have,

which was the ambition. Like, he wanted it. He said, I didn't really want it. I just wanted it to come to me. Well, also, I think if you're involved in a life of crime like that, a lot of cocaine and fun, first of all, there's a lot of bad karma that you have. But also, it's like you're too distracted.

You're too in that life. You're never going to really be able to go all in on music as an artist. So you're never going to really be able to reach your full potential, right? Yeah, that's what he was saying. He was admitting to me that he had made some sort of internal decision that he didn't want to do whatever he had to do to do it. He made certain excuses involving the mob. He did say that back then, and it is a known thing in Chicago, that in order to be successful

in Chicago, you had to basically sign contracts with the mob. There's always been rumors about the band Chicago that there were mob ties with their world. I'm sure there was a lot of that going on. Wasn't that the whole Hendrix thing? You ever know that conspiracy? Well, yeah, I've read about that. That gets into other types of complications.

And I don't have an opinion on it. It's just, it's like saying there's no way to separate the two things at the time. Like anybody back then, you know, any clubs at the time, particularly in Chicago, they were all mob connected. And Los Angeles as well. Sure. So if you were a comedian or, you know what I mean, an emcee or whatever you were doing, like here's Lola the dancer, you know. You were connected. There was a Wyatt guy standing there and everybody knew who they were because that's how they did their business

because if you didn't like what Johnny Rocco was doing, you were gonna get in trouble and you didn't wanna get in trouble. And I went to school with a bunch of the mob, Wyatt's guys' kids and grandkids. I worked at a mob club in Connecticut. I worked, I did stand out. Another one in Long Island.

There was where the guys were connected by the mob. In Boston as well. In Boston, Nick's Comedy Stop, they would offer to pay you in cocaine or money. We played a club on Long Island once where the crowd was moshing. In the middle of the four song, the guy on the side of the stage that worked for me was waving, like, stop playing in the middle of the song. And I thought, fuck it, stop playing. Got a thousand people out in front of me.

And he kind of did one of these, and there were two wise guys with standing there with suits on, kind of like, you're going to get in trouble with these guys if you don't stop. And I said, fuck it, I kept going. So they waited one more song, and then they came out between songs on stage with their backs to the audience and they pulled their coats open and showed me a gun and said, you better calm the fuck down. Whoa. Because of the moshing?

Yeah. Because it was one of those, we used to call them brass and fern bars, you know, like the brass bar and the ferns. Right, right, right. You know that bar, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've all been there. And we were playing one of those places for some reason and the crowd was going, ape shit, they were bouncing off the wall. So they were blaming us for the reaction of the crowd. So they wanted us to bring the crowd down. But how do you

bring the crowd down? So they literally showed me a gun and said, you better calm the fuck down. So what did you do? I just kept going. They were going to kill me on stage. Jesus Christ, what happened when you got off stage? They weren't gone. Really? I mean, there might have been a problem if somebody had done some real damage or something, but there was no problem.

But they definitely threatened me on stage. How did they not know about moshes? This is me at like 180 pounds and like long hair and bad attitude. That's hilarious. I don't think they'd ever seen anything like moshing. like 180 pounds and like long hair and you know bad attitude. That's hilarious. I don't think they've ever seen anything like moshing. You know this is like 92 this is a very very new phenomenon to the to the outside world. But moshing was going on before that. Oh yeah but it's only in the underground clubs is what I'm

saying. It's like that's what I'm saying you're in a you're in a wise guy's club on Long Island with brass rails and ferns and... I dated a girl in the 80s who went to see the cramps and came home with a concussion. Yeah. Poison Ivy. From the mosh pit. I remember Poison Ivy. She was the guitar player for the cramps. Oh, right. So great.

Yeah. Bad music for bad people. Did you ever kind of encounter the alternative scene when you were a kid? Not really, no. Not for you, the freaks? I didn't go to very many, I mean I went to a few concerts when I was a kid, but not, like I went to Jay Guile's band, I saw George Thorogood. Not exactly the alternative there. Yeah, no, I never really saw a lot. And then once I started really getting into comedy, I didn't really go to see anybody perform. I was mostly just performing myself So I never got to see anybody. Yeah, and I didn't really become friends with band people until I moved to Hollywood and

You know then like in the late 90s in 2000s I met a bunch of band people and it was always weird weird, you know, hanging out with them was always odd. It was like, oh, that's that guy from that band. Yeah, it's a lot of, like what do you call it? When the brains don't connect, the brain hemispheres bipolar, a lot of bipolarity in musicians. Oh yeah.

Particularly high levels? My theory is the reason they become musicians is they overdevelop one side of their brain. You know, you probably get on somebody who knows what they're talking about, but the idea is that if people's brain hemispheres, and that's why a lot of musicians do Coke, is it helps the polarities work. It helps the brain communicate left to right. Really? Oh yeah. It's a known thing that coke really helps that if you have that bipolarity. Huh. Do people, is that a medication for people that are bipolar? Do they give them Adderall or

anything like that? I don't know. I mean I've worked with people who are bipolar and they've talked about their medications and stuff, you know. Huh. And it's still kind of an inexact science, bipolarity. It's crazy to think that Coke helps fix some things. I think it helps the, I think it helps the, what I've heard is it helps the brain communications. Anybody I've known that's bipolar as a musician that did Coke told me they felt normal. It's the first time in their life they felt normal, that their brain worked normally. What a terrible thing.

Yeah, it doesn't work, right? Imagine if that's the thing that keeps you together, it's cocaine. I wonder if what coca leaves would do, because there's a lot of people like the high altitude herding populations and people in Peru, they chew coca leaves just for energy. And apparently it's a very different thing, like the chewing of the coca leaves. Or you can get tea, coca tea. I was just in South America and I've had that. Monte de coca. Yeah, it's kind of like you get a little bit of a clarity.

But the chewing of the leaves is like, it's so normal for them and it's illegal over here. But back to the theory, the idea is if you have one side of your brain overdeveloped, it makes you good at something that you wouldn't necessarily be good at. And then bad at life. Yeah, probably. Right.

So you need a handler like Elvis. You need a Colonel. So if you're meeting a successful musician, they're the graduating class of the bipolarity. Oh, okay, that makes sense. So there's some functional level of acumen. That makes sense. That makes sense. That's why through the years, as I've heard people give rumor to any number of famous

rock stars, it's like I recognize all the behaviors. Most people treat it like, oh, can you believe so-and-so did this and made this erratic decision? It's like, no, that's a musician. That's how most of their brains work. I don't know what it is, and maybe there's a comedic parallel, but it just strikes me that the reason there's such consistent bad behavior with musicians is because their brains don't work right. And I'm sure somebody's going to get mad at me for saying that, but I mean it as a compliment. It makes them good at something that they maybe wouldn't necessarily be good at.

And maybe, I don't know, I've never been tested. I don't think I'm bipolar, but... Yeah, I probably, I would imagine that a of like motivational speakers would not be awesome band members You know I mean like people who are completely dialed in with their life Tony Robbins Yeah, a player you know they get up in the morning And they do their exercise yoga and eat well they stare at the Sun as it rises and they get their fucking whole life dialed in They probably wouldn't be the best band members well especially There's no good band members. That's the problem.

Well, how do you guys, how do you keep it together for all these years? Like, what's the key to a harmonious... Well, we did, and that's the thing. I mean, we broke up in 2000, and then the drummer and I brought the band back in 2007, and it only lasted two years. And then I soldiered on alone as the only original member from 2009 to 2015. And then the drummer came back and then the guitar player who I didn't talk to for 16, 17 years came back in 2018. So we've been an intact three quarter unit since 2018. How come you guys didn't talk for so long?

Real heat. It was real heat. Yeah. That sucks. No, it's all resolved now. I mean, it's all good. I mean, I think if you don't talk to somebody for 16, 17 years, there's a beef there that, you know what I mean? It lasts. A real one.

But it's interesting to me how people can manage, it's always, like as comics, we always look at band members going, imagine if all of your fucking success depended on this guy showing up that guy showing up This guy's girlfriend not getting in the way. This guy's fucking uncle not trying to manage you guys like you have all these fucking people and You're trying to put together songs and you're trying to like get out. Come on. We got a tour

I don't want to or my mom needs me to help her with the fucking business and what are you talking about man? We're in a band. We have a record deal. I'm nodding my head because this is my life experience for 35 years. As comics, we always talk about, thank God we're like a one-man show. Thank God. All we need is other comics to work with us.

The problem with the band is the band members have no idea why it works. We're clueless as to the mystery of why people are attracted to us as a unit. We can certainly conceptualize, like I write good songs and I play good guitar, but there's something about bands that creates a kind of a magical, Pete Townsend referred to it as a gang, a gang that you want to be in. That's what makes bands attractive to people. That was his opinion. I don't totally disagree. There's something that goes on in those relationships that's kinetic enough that it sustains past

whether or not you have a good song or two. Right. Yeah. It's all the pieces make the puzzle together. It's not one piece as an individual. It's all of them together make Led Zeppelin. Yes, all of them together, make Led Zeppelin. So if you're lucky, and in this new world, you've got the Stones playing into their 80s, so the economy of music has changed where it's like you're in an elongated state of success. It's just totally unprecedented, by the way. What's going on with rock bands in their 50s and beyond is there's no prior parallel in

a hundred plus years of recorded music. There's not even one instance you can point to and say, it worked that way then. So we're all in uncharted territory and there's nobody that can even really advise you. There's always the material thing of like, well, you're going to make a lot of money and you got this IP and the band and it's like the actual sort of the nuts and bolts of how to hang together. So for us, it's been really, I call it the family of the band, but it's like the actual sort of the nuts and bolts of how to hang together. So for us, it's been really, I call it the family of the band. There's some sort of pride that's emerged with like, we've all survived, our relationships are intact enough for us

to get on a stage and somehow it benefits our families individually. So it has allowed us a sort of pride, you know, because it's less about our relationship and more about our relationship with our families. That's allowed us to have a sweetness between the three of us that we didn't have when we were young. Oh, well, that's cool. Well, also, probably just growing up and being more mature and appreciative. You're really going on a limb there with the growing up shit. A little bit of gratitude.

Perpetual adolescence over here. Well, that is part of the fun though. I mean, you do wait. You don't actually have to really grow up. And you know, it's funny, even when I say something like this, there's already some guy getting ready to go on Reddit, but there is a day you wake up and you look in the mirror, you're like,

I'm a rock star, this is fucking cool. Yeah. And there's another day that you wake up and you go, you know, I don't have to get off this rock star train if I don't want to. Well, look at the stones. I saw the stones at COTA, the Circuit of the Americas here in Austin a couple years ago.

It was fucking insane. It's insane. I was almost like having an out of body experience because you can't believe you're really seeing Mick Jagger. Like when he's out there dancing, I swear to God, I felt like I was on a drug. I was like, my friend Bobby and I, he's the one that, he owns that place,

Circuit of the Americas. And I was standing next to him like, I can't believe they're really here Like there's certain people that you just get weirded out by being like Bill Murray was here the other day Yeah, and I even told him I'm like I'm weirded out. I'm weirded out that you're here Like it's just there's a lot of people that I don't freak. I mean, I've met a lot of people I don't freak out about too many of them, but Bill Murray I freaked out about. But seeing Mick Jagger, I didn't even get to meet him,

but seeing him on the stage, I was like, this is nuts. That's really Mick Jagger. Yeah, well, the mythical part, see, in his case, the mythical part of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards is integrated. They become the avatar. They're the living example of where it actually works. My argument is against those people where it doesn't work.

You know, Larry465 on the internet, who thinks he's lord of like, you know, D&D or something. I mean, that's where I get kind of like, what is that? I get the other thing, you know, because you know, whether it's a, you know- What do you mean by Larry for- I'm not sure- I'm joking about the guy on the internet whose- his entire status is based on being in a subculture and achieving some status within the subculture, which doesn't really apply into the outside world. Oh, like a Reddit forum or something. Yeah, whatever.

Whatever it is? Mick Jagger walks into a stadium full of people. They're there to see Mick Jagger and Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood. Right. Even though they're 80, and you, who's been around everybody, goes, holy shit, there it is. Yeah, just the fact that he was alive. Okay, but it's the myth made real.

Yes. Have you ever watched those YouTube videos like, what was Caesar really like? You know what I mean? Right, right, right. That type of stuff? Like, what was it like to live in those times? Because there's the myth, and then there's the reality. And then sometimes if you learn about the reality, you're like, wow, that guy was really a badass or she was really a badass because the thing is real, the mythology is real. It has truth or resonance in it.

It's all this other culture that's risen up where we're supposed to pay tribute, and that goes back to the podcast, is like we're paying tribute to people who haven't done shit. I want to pay tribute to people who haven't done shit. Right. I wanna pay tribute to people who've actually done something. Yes, well that's what you like about doing your podcast, then, you just like finding people that resonate with you, that really like strike a chord.

I just, the other day I interviewed Susan Olson, who was Cindy Brady, okay? The Brady Bunch. Oh wow. Okay, the Brady Bunch is, you know, as far as the original show, I think it's been over for 50 years. Right? I think so.

Yes. Right? Yeah. Okay. Every interview you look up on YouTube on Susan Olson, it's like it's just getting her to regurgitate the same stories. And she did the Brady Bunch when she was like seven to 12 years old or something. Wow. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You're Gilligan for life. 12 years old or something. Wow.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You're Gilligan for life. Okay. My thing is, no, you're not Gilligan for life. So that's what, and we had a great chat because I think there's a lot to learn from somebody who went through a zeitgeist moment at such a young age. Like, how do you navigate past that?

What do you do with yourself? How do you pick yourself up off the ground? How do you deal with typecasting? How do you navigate the fact that as you walk through the airport you're not Susan Olson, you're Cindy Brady? Do people still recognize her? Oh yeah. Wow. Hey well there's Barbara Eden, I Dream of Jeannie, that was another one. People get

locked into who they are, Al Bundy. I'm still the rat in the cage guy. I do with that too, you know It's such a good jam That's a fucking great song. Thank you. That's on the green room playlist that fucking song rules, dude That was a good one. Oh my god, all time. I didn't get it at that time I actually had to be talked into it really. Yeah, we were putting out our double album It was this big pressure moment 95 and I wanted a different song to be the first song And the guy from the record company called who's now passed away His name was Phil Cordray a lovely guy and he literally did the thing on the phone kid

It's a smash. You got to trust me and I trusted him. Wow. I thought he was crazy Did you think that that's sometimes because you're too close to your own creation? Yeah, like you know, you're never gonna get to see how your songs impacted other people, the way it impacted them. You're not gonna feel that the way they feel it. Like hearing that song for the first time, completed, they've never seen you rehearse it,

they don't know how you wrote it, they don't know how you guys practiced it, how you fucked around with the lyrics, you did it a different way. They just get the first, they get the full version of it done, they're like, holy shit. And then it's kind of awful that you don't get to experience that, like you created it. Yeah, the only time I've been able to experience that is when I was really high.

Oh, wow. Like getting so high that I could hear it for the first time. As if it was somebody else singing. What really tripped me out about doing a lot of drugs back in the day was I would hear messages in my music that I didn't even know I was putting in there. And at some point I became conscious of my unconscious ability to put messages inside. Sorry, you look at me like I'm crazy. No, no, no. It's fascinating.

So imagine, I'll try to reset up the scenario. Okay. You write a song, you think it's about something. You're sure of it. In fact, you would tell people, sorry, this horrible plague I got. No worries. You're convinced that the song that you've written is about your ex-girlfriend.

And then when you're super high, you listen and you can hear yourself actually singing about something else. So now you have a conscious understanding of something your unconscious has implanted in the art. And once I became conscious of the process, I became more aware of how to unconsciously plant messages in my music. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just operate on layers. You put stuff in there.

Yes, but I didn't know that I was doing it until I did a lot of drugs. Ah! That there was this other voice at work, this subliminal voice. Can you give me an example? The conscious mind wants to believe the song's about your ex-girlfriend, but what it's really about is about being abandoned by your mother. If you came up to me and said, what's that song about? And I trust you and I go, oh, it's just about my ex. I would believe it, like 100%. And

then I listen to it high on drugs and I'm like, oh my God, I'm singing about my mother and I'm weeping. And I had no conscious mind when I wrote the song that was about my mother. And then once I have that kind of agape moment of like, holy shit, then I go back and listen to the music sober and I can totally hear it. And then where it gets really weird is people would come up to me and say, that song, that reminded me of my relationship with my mother, thank you. That healed, like people would come up and respond to me on the unconscious recognition, not what I thought I wrote the song about. That blew my mind, that there was this other person in their layer at work, and I gained a lot more respect for, I guess you would call it, the shamanic aspects of art. I don't

know if you've ever read Castanedus, but do you read Castanedus? Maybe I did in high school, I think. Yeah. It was kind of a thing for our generation, everybody kind of read Castanedus? Maybe I did in high school, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of a thing for our generation. Everybody kind of read Castanedus. Yeah. And it's still to this day debated about whether Castanedus was a real thing. It was a documentary.

It was true stories are made up. And did Don Juan, the shaman, was he a real person? Is there really a Don Juan? There's a lot of debate. I think it's even been New York Times articles written about it. Right. About whether Castanedus, this whole thing is a fraud and all this stuff. And I think Castanedas may even still be alive. That might

be one to look up sometime. But anyway, I gained a lot more respect that artists have the ability to communicate at subconscious levels that they're not even aware of. I don't know if that resonates the way I'm explaining it, but that's that, that it moves something to me, allowed me to be a better artist That's fascinating and it also like you can never guess like what kind of an impact your work Especially if you're too close to it What kind of an impact your work is gonna have on someone who's seeing it for the first time? and if there's like multiple layers that you're operating on that you're not even totally aware of and then you put out this thing

That has this like Very complex layered message in it and it just makes people go. Oh my god That's like one of the ultimate expressions of art, right? Like something that just It music does something very strange that no other art form does. It operates like a drug. Music gives you more energy when you're on the treadmill. If a great song comes on and you're working out, you're like, fuck yeah. You feel it.

There's riffs. There's guitar riffs that I swear to God make you stronger. Like Tool, Prison Sex. Ba dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum. That song makes you just fucking rawr. You know, there's like something to it. It gives you energy. It's like a drug. It's an audio drug. It fires up your synapses in this very strange way.

The best explanation I ever heard that resonated with me was, you know, the entire universe is constructed on waves. Light, everything has to do with waves. So music is the closest thing to the foundational aspects of the universe. That's okay. I know what you're saying. Yeah, well, that makes sense. Because it penetrates the cellular. Right. Well, people that, you know, go on these shamanic journeys, the ayahuasca journeys, they play these songs that accompany the ayahuasca journey.

They're called Icaros. And when you... Are they traditional ayahuasca songs? Yes. And they have this weird beat to them. You listen to them by themselves, you're like, I don't get it. But if you listen to them under the influence, the psychedelic experience dances to those songs

and it gets guided by those songs and it's really wild. Like really wild. And then you go, oh, this is like a technology to interface with the psychedelic experience. It's not... But, okay, but you're hitting on exactly what I'm saying. I think artists, and I'll exclude myself from the discussion so I don't make somebody mad, artists have a way of knowing how to do that without anybody teaching them.

Right. They just know what music, beats, chords, melodies, lyrics to use to penetrate. And the successful artists, think of it, they do it at scale. Yeah. Well, there's this thing that happens when someone's really in it, where you feel it from them while they're performing, and you just get drawn into it like, wow. I remember the first time I saw Mr. Jones in me first time I saw County crows play that song the way he was like dancing around in the living like that guy is so free

Like I want to be free like that. You know, I really remember thinking that cuz it was so real He was so in the moment while he's singing that song and I had Adam in here and I asked him about like what? What like, what is that? Like you were fucking locked in, man. Like I remember being a kid, I was probably like 23 or something like that when that song came out. I was in my apartment in New York watching it going, fuck, watching on MTV going, this guy's just so loose, man.

He's so free. I remember thinking, I wanna be able to perform like that. Whatever I do, I wanna feel like, how's that, what's that zone that he's in? Well, part of that is, you know, a lot of shamanic work involves the breath. So think a singer is rhythmically breathing and rhythmically chanting. So that's one thing that most people would not pick up on. There's a ton of expiration of breath. You know, like what's the Wim Hof, Wim Hof?

You know that? Well, I do that for two hours. I mean, I'm totally asphyxiated the entire time. It's not natural to scream your head off for two hours. It just isn't. Do you have to get in shape to do it? Do you have to get your bugs in shape? I do, I do, to a certain extent, yeah.

Do you build up to like a concert performance? Like how do you do it? You have to, to a certain extent. Yeah, do you build up to like a concert performance? You have to it to a certain extent. Yeah, I don't know I don't know how to explain it like if you if I think I'm off cycle right now So if you came to see me play an hour and a half show tomorrow I could do it, but I probably couldn't talk the next day But if I do a week of rehearsals and prep up then I can so it's like a muscle like something Yeah, I don't understand. I don't it. So it's like a muscle, like your voice is like a muscle. I don't understand it.

It's almost like a trained fury. Like you learn to not go too far. You learn to pace it. People say you blow your voice out. You have to really know where the line is. By the way, when you're dealing with a ton of adrenaline, like the thing with fighters comes to mind, like they'll come in, they'll gas in a minute because minutes and you're dead. Oh no.

What are you going to do? Yeah. So you have to almost like have a controlled fury. Like imagine screaming at the top of your lungs, but not totally at the top of your lungs. Right. 87%. Like there's the magical line.

Well, that's what fighting is. It's the same kind of thing. You don't go 100%. Or the zen of that. Yeah, some of the best fighters, they'll punch like 50, 60%. And that way they can put volume on you. So I can't imagine being in there and somebody's on the other side wanting to kill you and being able to be like, I'm just going to work my way through these.

Well you have to have serious experience to be able to manage the storm that way. Did you ever have to take vocal lessons to learn how to not blow your throat out? I did, yeah. I work with a lady. It's a funny story. I worked with a lady at one point. They hooked me up with somebody from the opera. Oh, perfect.

And she came to my house. Well, no, it's actually, she was great, but she came to my house and she said, oh, you sing totally wrong. But here's how to sing right and you won't blow your voice out. And it was all about the right posture and all this stuff. And the first time I tried to do it at a concert with 4,000 kids going nuts, I tried to do what she taught me, and it didn't work, because I was in the deep end of the pool,

and I ended up having to go back to all my old bad habits. So eventually, I found a woman who was used to working with rock singers, and she explained to me a bunch of theories about I think Her memory I think she said the human body has 11 folds of tissue in the throat And if and if rock singers don't warm up all that tissue, that's how they damage their singing And she'd also work with Steven Tyler and she said the thing about rock singers is you you guys sing wrong? Because that's the way you want to sound It's part of your gimmick, you know?

Right, right, right. I'm sure Steven Tyler and myself, we could sing like choir boys if we wanted to, but that's not what attracts people to us. It's the razor's edge in the voice or something. So you have to learn how to warm up to sing like an idiot, basically. Oh.

And that's the sound that people are attracted to with rock singers and even the gentleman you played before. I mean he's totally abusing his voice. That is not proper singing. Right, right, right, right, right. And there's physical techniques to create that sound. Like there's Axl Rose for example, like you know he sings a very particular way, the way he uses his throat in a particular way that makes it you say that's the Axl sound or whatever. It's not natural, but it's awesome when he does it. It's kind of the thing. Yeah, that has got to be

really hard to maintain. I saw them play in Athens, Greece, and they did a three hour show like two years ago. Yeah. At like, how old is he? 60? 60 something? I think Axl's about seven years older than me. Yeah, like how old is he 60 60 something? I think Axel's about seven years older than me. So yeah, cuz I remember us Welcome to the jungle was huge when I was in high school or just out of high school 89 Yeah, 88 89 was it? Okay, so I graduated 85 So it was like a couple years after high school. Welcome to the jungle. It's like, oh my god This song like I remember watching the the music video remember when he had that teased up hair back then? Yeah, the big hair.

Yeah, the huge hair. That was the poison hair era. Yeah. Yeah. So singing like that is, it's wrong, but that's what makes it right. Right. Well, you can't say what's wrong or what's right. It's just like what's sustainable. Trust me, no one can tell you. You're surrounded by a lot of people with a lot of opinions. I was told when I was very young, that voice you sing with will never sell records, ever. And most people that don't like my music will often cite my voice as the reason they don't like my music. But that's the way that my voice is the reason that people who do like my music like my music. Right? It's a weird

It's like a like what do you do with that? Well, you can't do it for other people No, I'm saying I sing the way I sing and it's like it's like don't sing that way. Well, I don't Wait, that's the whole idea of like you can't do it for other people. You can't do it for them You can't do it the way they want it to know There's gonna be people who like it the way you want you like it Yeah You just have to find out what that thing is and you have to fit like you have to what whatever your internal compass is that Guides you towards this particular style this particular way of expressing yourself. It has to be authentic singing against a wall of guitars

This is a particular skill set It's like singing against three airline jets at the same time. Right, right, right. We have three guitars in our band playing at the same time. So my voice has to cut like a razor through that wall of noise. Yeah. Voices are, some voices are so fucking compelling. Like you listen to them, like Amy Winehouse, perfect example, you hear her sing once and you're just like, whoa, there's something about it.

Okay, so back to my argument about the unconscious thing. Certain voices convey an unconscious information. Yeah. Tonally it registers in the public as a certain authority or wisdom or sorrow. Yeah. Like some voices just have so much sorrow in them. Like for our generation, when Kurt would sing, and I saw Kurt many times live, it sounded like, it was like the literal howl of our generation. It had this great connectivity to what we were experiencing as latchkey kids. Yes.

You know? Yes. I don't want to say tantrumish, but it had a certain kind of anger. But it was the anger of disaffection. It wasn't the anger of a hardcore band like, you know, screw capitalism. Right, right, right. It had a sorrow somehow in it. Yeah.

Yeah. And authenticity. Like, Kurt was the master in it. Yeah Yeah, and Authenticity like Kurt was the master of yeah, ticity. He was changed. He killed hair bands He really did he killed hair bands I remember when I was a kid never mind came out and I was with a couple of friends of mine and This guy goes have you seen this And he shows me this fucking cassette with a baby on the cover. I go, what is it? He's like, this is Nirvana.

And he plays to me Nirvana for the first time over his house. I was like, holy shit. This is crazy. Yeah, for our generation, it was the door getting kicked open. Yes. Everything after just got easier. But that's the thing. These unique artists that come along

and transform the medium. Like I said, Lenny Bruce, Prior, then Kineson. There's a few examples of that in music, where someone comes along like Hendrix or Kurt or even Elvis. Someone comes along and everybody's like, what the fuck is going on? The Beatles. What is happening?

This is crazy. What strikes me, and this is a business point, but that's where all the money is going on, the Beatles? What is happening? This is crazy. What strikes me, and this is a business point, but that's where all the money is. And yet the music business is not to nurture those talents. In fact, the music business works against those talents. It's almost like they blow up their business model so it becomes inconvenient. Well, what do you think the music business nurtures?

Control. They want control. They biggest problem I've seen in the music business is they don't understand why musicians can't be as supple in the business part of the equation as a guy who makes cookies or something. Like, this is what it costs, here's your quality control, the public wants more chocolate chips, can't you just put more chocolate chips in there? And none of that is what attracts the public to great artists. It's like completely counterintuitive.

So they sit there and you just end up as a name on a piece of paper or an inconvenient problem. I mean, I've said this a few times publicly, but it bears repeating here is I've been in meetings where they're complaining to me about me. Like, how so? What do they say? Basically the person that I am in the world is inconvenient to their business. The things I'm saying, the things I'm doing, the music I'm making is inconvenient to the

business. Could I temper those things more in the direction that they want like what? Particularly were they talking about it does you name it like give me one example It could be anything from You know you're too negative to your songs are too weird to your voice is too weird to your guitars are too loud They just want to sell more yes, so to them. It's an intellectual thing oh Wow be like Joe, if you could just make more jokes about the economy, you'd sell two stadiums, not

just one. This is what happened with Dave Chappelle while he left the Chappelle show. Same exact kind of thing, you know, a different version of it. Yeah, so it's this weird thing where you're sitting there and then you're like, and what I always try to tell them is, I didn't get here with that type of thinking. And I do think, and I don't want to name names, but you can, I would say this to your great audience, you can pretty much tell who got to the dance on their own, and somewhere along the way between the second and the fourth album decided that the compromise had a bigger yield And off goes the organic switch and on goes the oh you want me to be the next-door neighbor

Right or you know? romantic movie ballads Whatever yeah Aerosmith went through that for a while, but to their credit I didn't understand at the time, it was a brilliant move because they'd gone about as far as they could go in the one thing and they're super influential and including on alternative music. And it ended up being a really smart watershed moment for them to do what they did. At the time they were doing SNL skits, you remember Adam Sandler used to come out and he would do like, I think it was Adam Sandler, we could do like the seven Aerosmith ballads in a row.

And it was like, I'm crying, I'm really crying. You know, they would just play and he'd just sing all those songs like Steven Tyler. But I think looking back, it was really smart what they did. Well, also maybe they're allowed to do whatever they wanna do. Like artists change their whole thing.

Like they went from Mama Kin to some of those ballads. As far as I know, and your Hirstute assistant over there would probably check, but I think Aerosmith is the biggest selling American rock band of all time. Whoa. So if you're Aerosmith, did they make a wrong turn? My argument would be no. No, it's not a wrong turn. I mean, obviously you're Aerosmith, did they make a wrong turn? My argument would be no. No, it's not a wrong turn.

I mean, obviously you're allowed to change what you're interested in too. Yeah. There's a lot of bands that sort of reinvent themselves with almost every album. Like my friend Sturgill Simpson, he sort of reinvents himself with every album. Every album's different.

Yeah. He just gets bored with stuff. Aerosmith, the best-selling American hard rock band with every album. Every album's different. Yeah. Like he just gets bored with stuff. Aerosmith, the best-selling American hard rock band of all time, having sold more than 150 million records worldwide, including over 85 million records in the United States. Whew! So yeah. That's pretty good.

Yeah. So that's what I'm saying is only the bands can really know what the right direction to go in is because at some point, you know, what seems so obvious to the audience or some guy in an office isn't necessarily what drives the band forward. Well, then there's weird cases like David Lee Roth leaves Van Halen, Sammy Hagar takes over and it becomes bigger in a totally different way. But if you talk to the average Van Halen fan, they want to hear the David Lee Roth Van Halen. Well, especially if you grew up with that. The thing is like what you started out with is always what you want to see. Right, but I'm saying there's no

obvious argument of which is superior, you know what I'm saying? Once you sold more records, one is sort of held more in people's hearts because of a particular generational thing, which would be our generation. But some people love the Sammy Hagar version better. You know, it's okay. You're allowed to. Like Taylor Swift sells a lot of fucking tickets. Like it doesn't, if you're not into it, there's nothing, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I mean, everybody has a weird, the way they interface with the world and some things get in there and really lock on you and like, wow, this is amazing. And you could take the same concert and another person that you like goes to it and they say, this sucks. And you're like, this is fucking amazing. How can you say this sucks?

Well, I think you're about to see that Nickelback and Creed are about to go on a huge run of business. Really? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Nickelback took a lot of shit. That's kind of my point is they've survived it and now here comes the the inevitable moment of like oh yeah it was really good and they wrote a lot of great songs. They had some fucking great songs. That rock star song that's a great song. Like I was but it was one of those weird things where they had become like a punch line. And for whatever reason, everybody thought that it was okay to shit on Nickelback.

And comics would shit on them. It was like a thing that people would mock the success of Nickelback. Meanwhile, they're selling out arenas every fucking night of the week. So, yeah, I think history has a way of sorting out the bodies is the way I look at it. Yeah. That's kind of how I feel. I mean, this is selfish for me to say this, but this is kind of how I feel about my musical life.

I think time will tell my story much better than I did. You seem at peace with that. I am. It doesn't seem to bother you at all. I made my peace with it. I mean, it bothered me when it bothered me because it felt unfair or, yeah, it felt like I was being sort of made to pay for the sins of the people who are no longer here. Because particularly in Gen X, we've had so many great talents die.

Oh, so you felt like you weren't getting the credit you deserve because you survived? There was part of that. That's the, let's call it the simpler version, the more complicated version is generations move with the collective energy and by the mid-2000s the collective energy of Generation X had mostly dissipated in the musical thing. There were bands out playing but a lot of the lead singers had died. So it's hard to sort of stand and carry a flag for something that people feel very sentimental about if there isn't an army around you carrying the same flag. So you start to, people start to put on you this, like a set of cultural and generational

expectations that you don't want. You become the emblem of like the living version of what doesn't work. But the other guys or girls aren't there to grow old with you and receive the same discernment or criticism. Oh, wow. Like one time a guy tried to goad me into an argument of comparing myself to one of the top people and musical people in my generation. I don't want to say who, but you'll understand the flow on this. So, and they said, can you compare, you know,

who do you think's better? So it was like a real cheese setup. And I said, well, I think they were more talented. But I said, I feel I'm in that conversation. And they said, why are you in the conversation? I said, because I'm alive. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm here.

Well, it's also like, you can't deny that Smashing Pumpkins didn't have some fucking bangers. Like anybody who denies that. Well, Joe, that's a, that's a whole other episode because the band is probably one of the most misunderstood. I mean, they're probably one, we're probably one of the most misunderstood, I mean, we're probably one of the most misunderstood bands in the history of rock and roll. I mean, that sounds like a resting statement, but it's fairly accurate.

What do you think that's from? I think it has a lot to do with the issues of Gen X, and it has a lot to do with a relationship that I set into motion with the media when I was a very young person playing kind of a funny game, like doing my own version of Andy Kaufman or Bob Zamuda. You understand? Uh-huh. Because I thought it was all shitty, so I was just like, I'm just gonna play with this

like a toy because I think it's kind of funny. I didn't realize that the coming culture was going to kind of almost be attracted to people who are willing to emulate themselves on the public stage. Does that make sense? Yeah. Most people who are attracted to fame, they want to run towards the shiny part of it.

I was attracted to the non-shiny part, which is, okay, I'll light myself on fire and let's see what happens. Or I'll light you on fire and let's see what happens. So it kind of worked in the 90s when everybody was rolling and moving along. Well, here comes Napster, the music business, Craters. Then a bunch of people die and there you are standing, you know, now at 40 years old. You're supposed to carry some flag for a generation that doesn't even know who it is anymore. How do you navigate that? Like, did that trouble you at the time? Was it

difficult to work as an artist? Yeah, it's very difficult. The simple version is, and I had some of the top, top people in the music business sit me down, one on one in a room, and say, just give them what they want. Jesus. Your life will be a lot better, you'll make a lot more money, and you could put your head on your pillow at night

and not have to think about all these things. And my response every time I said I don't give a fuck and I used to quote Popeye I am what I am I'm here I'm here because I'm a freak okay and I ain't changing for anything good for you and part of that goes back to my daddy okay I watched a man literally broken by the business. So I'm the last person who's going to fucking bow down for that shit. Fuck off. Well the beautiful thing is too, you always had an audience.

So you didn't have to. Well there is that. But at the end of the day, how can I explain it? Everybody in the music business will tell you your value is exponentially related to your success. So your biggest song is here and your next biggest song is here and there's like a pyramid and as you go down you lose value. Your aging becomes part of that loss of value. How do you maintain value, relevancy? You no longer have the record business that used to exist. You no longer have the structure. I mean the music business is basically a

touring business first now and everything. You no longer have the structure. I mean, the music business is basically a touring business first now. And everything else is in support of the touring business. We're lucky in that we continue to be a very large touring band. So you're told over and over again, almost in a propagandistic way, that your value is related to what's on a piece of paper. And then somehow I woke up in the middle of it

and I thought, no, no, that's actually not my value. And so the minute I started saying, no, I know what my real value is. It's that I'm an independent artist who, like a voice in the wilderness, represents something. And I know it's not for everybody. Trust me, I've been getting that message since I was a little kid, including from my own family. But I know what I represent represents something that's valuable. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I see the consistency of the kind of, let's call it the communication between myself and somebody who's interested in what I do. And once I started doubling and tripling down the value, my business started going back up.

Wow. And the way I would say it in a crass way is I reasserted my brand, not the brand I was being handed in 40 plus brand. You know, you're an oldies band, you're an oldies artist, you play these songs. Well, you just kept and reinforced your true voice. Yeah. But I had to live it. Which is what brought you to the dance in the first place.

It seems silly, but that's what I had to figure out. I had to figure that out on my own because there was nobody telling me that. I mean, to understand and and and and you're a man of the world So you know what I'm saying when you're in a room with somebody who runs the fucking world in my case runs the music business Yeah, the guy who can get shit done the guy who can get you cancelled the guy who can fucking make stuff happen Yeah, and that guy tells you here's your value It's awfully hard to go back to Chicago, Illinois and convince yourself that he's wrong. Right. Right.

There's no, and who do you talk to about it? Especially if fame is fleeting, it comes and goes, album sales come and go, and there's a new big thing right now, there's the new thing, and you're not the new thing anymore. Oh yeah, there's always the new thing. Yeah, and then someone's coming along, listen, you've got to listen to us. We know how you can be back on top. I don't read comments, but I have a social media person who occasionally relays what she sees.

Oh boy. Well, we kind of keep it on the positive, but my favorite comment of the last few years was she started poking around with young fans, 16, 18 year olds, who were suddenly seeming to come out of the woodwork and liking the band and me. Almost like a cuddly bear or something. They suddenly were attracted to me in a way that the 16 and 18-year-olds of the previous generation weren't. So I asked her, I said, why don't you poke around with these people and ask them what's interesting? And my favorite comment, and it became kind of common amongst the feedback that she got, was I like him because other people told me not to like him.

But what that says to me, anybody can interpret the way they want, what it said to me is, we need people in the zeitgeist of the culture who don't represent the collective yes. There's always room for somebody on the corner saying no. Right. And that goes back to Lenny Bruce. As crazy as all that was, you still need that guy going no no no no no. You know what I'm saying? And you can call him whatever disruptors or whatever. Well, authentic voices. That sounds nicer than disruptor. I like disruptor because that's that's what I do. Well, it does disrupt, but it disrupts because it's an authentic voice. Because it bucks the idea of creating some manufactured thing for the market.

I've told many people in the music business, I know that you don't want me in this business, but I'm here. And I've made a lot of money, and I've made a lot of people a lot of money. Like, what's the problem? Oh, so you make great songs. But most people are in the business for the music But the idea that somebody wouldn't want you in the business when you've been very successful in the business is just insane It doesn't even make any sense Doesn't make sense to me. Well, that's the weird thing that you guys have to deal. You deal with like this whole layer of non-artistic people that have influence

over art. Having heard you many times do commentary for UFC, what I love about you as a commentator is you take me into the into the passion of the moment, the feeling of like two warriors are gonna enter this thing and only one can emerge. There's a feeling there that's like, and I've been to some of the events, it's like, it has that like, it's sort of a life affirming, like, here we are, you know, and you know, because you're behind the scenes, the training that went in, the injuries the guy had overcome, or the girl or whatever, or the crazy girlfriend and they got the training camp and all of it, and there is the clash it's no different for the musician it's like you know I sit in a room for a year and make songs with only three four people hearing them

right I have to believe that I'm gonna be walk into that my version of that octagon and what I'm gonna offer is not gonna get me killed what is it like when you release an album what is that feeling like I just I just I want to curl up in a ball and just die. Because here it comes. Here it comes. And sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. But I've had more negative experiences than positive ones. But positive from the fans, is it non-fans that are the problem? It's like the people on the outside peering in?

Twenty years ago I would have given you a different answer. Now nobody's the problem. It's ultimately the game is you versus yourself. I don't know if there's any commonality in the fighting world or the comedic world. It's you versus yourself. It's not the audience's fault. It's not the guy at the radio station or the girl at the arena. it's nothing to do with them. Because the one thing you do know is if you find that value, that makes a wheel turn, that prints cash, they don't care who you are,

they'll push you right back under the spotlight. So once you can figure that game out, that's the game. The game is you versus you, it's not you versus them. In fact, that's the that's the sucker's game. So it's you just trying to create the best version of what you have inside your head. Let's do a simple math. And anybody wants to take a have a problem with it, I don't care. Okay? My band in over 30 years has been in the top 0.1 percentile of touring artists in the world. Period. You would think that if you were in that business and you were at that elite level, you would think the whole business would rally around you and try to get you to do more and make more, not even close to that.

There is no system by which you get that kind of support. You are completely on your own. But is that universal with successful artists? I think so. I think I hear different stories about the top pop artists, but I think that's because they're making so much money. It's like they're like a multinational corporation. Most bands are, their experiences are similar to ours. You're kind of on your own, you have

your team of people, and then you walk into the arena with what you got, what you think is gonna work. But I hear about the modern pop stars, I mean I hear stuff that sounds, it sounds like they're running a Fortune 500 company because they're, they're, they are literally printing cash. Also the percentage that the actual artists get versus what they should be getting. It hurts. It's crazy. It hurts.

It's crazy because they do everything. They create the music, they perform the music and yet they're not making the money. People are coming to see them perform the music yet they're not making the money. People are coming to see them perform the music, yet they're not making the money. There's some bizarre vampires that have attached themselves to the veins. That's changing. I think in the next 20 years, you're gonna see a very different music business.

In what way? Peer to peer ability to create commerce. Right, and then also the fact that you could release things so like Oliver Anthony He put out that Richmond north of Richmond and then it's fucking gigantic 100 million views on YouTube. It's like it's crazy But like 20 years ago your success and who you work with would have been unthinkable Right, right, and you're an independent voice. You've built it. I mean, it's yours. Right? So that's what I'm saying. That's coming for music. This is coming for music.

Right. Well, that's good. Yes. I think ultimately will benefit the fans of the artist and they'll get more of what they want and less of what they don't want. Here here. All right. Let's wrap it up. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you very much always fun to talk to you Thank you tell everybody what your podcasts call where they can get it the magnificent others Bye!