The Joe Rogan Experience - #2288 - Jacques Vallée

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Jacques Vallée is a venture capitalist, technologist, and prominent figure in the field of unidentified aerial phenomena. His new book is Forbidden Science 6: Scattered Castles, The Journals of Jacques Vallee 2010-2019. www.jacquesvallee.net This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Now this is taxes. Get an expert now at TurboTax.com This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Very good to see you. Good to see you. I really enjoyed our conversation last night. We all went out to dinner and Hal Puthoff blew my mind. As you know, I've known him for a long time. Yeah, when did you meet him?

What year? I knew him at SRI actually. I was at Stanford Research Institute before him in one of the very early internet research teams. When there was no internet, it was called the ARPANET. It was the network of the Advanced Research Project Agency, and it was all computer experiment and so on. It turned into, we had engine number three

on the internet at SRI in California. And so it was part of that. By the time I joined them, they were like 30 machines already. So, and it was part of the... By the time I joined them, they were like 30 machines already. And it was exciting. And then, you know, Dr. Pudoff and Russell Tarr came in with a proposal to SRI to do a parapsychology research at SRI, which had never been done. And it was funny because the, so I was already there,

you know, in a team. What year was this? What year? Oh, God. Seventy-four. Wow. Seventy-four. So the arp that was around 74. Yeah. Wow. So the arpinet was around 74. Yeah.

Wow. And it was funny because I was in my office and the vice president of SRI came in, closed the door and said, Jack, you know, you've published some things controversial under your name on UFOs, and you haven't lost your scientific reputation, which is why you're here working for us at SRI on the ARPANET. But you know, there's a proposal from Dr. Pudoff and Dr. Tark to do parapsychology research here and we've never done that. And I said well you know it's a very valid, I think it's a very valid area of research we should, you

know, we're in the kind of institution that should do that. He said well let me let me draw something on your whiteboard. And he drew a scale, a horizontal scale. And on one side, there was a little square. He said, this is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology. It's maybe at most a million a year, okay? And here is what I manage, you know, in this division

drew a huge cube, you know, it said 150 million dollars. Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT&T and Bank of America and so on just to do some research on psychic things. And I said, well, the reason we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on is that we do the research that they can't do themselves. We do. We go out and we take risk.

And I think we should take the same risk with Hal Pudoff and Russell Tarak, because this could be very big. There is a lot of literature on this already, and we can bring the science into it. They can bring the science into it. He said, well, there is a meeting of the board of directors of SRI in two days, and most of them are against it. What do I tell them? And I said, well, I can write up the reasons why

in science you have to take chances, and this is science. I mean, this isn't just engineering. And he said, well, give me a memo by tomorrow at 12. So I went home and I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential. I don't think anybody has seen it. For the board explaining why there was scientific evidence, enough of it so that good research could be done. Obviously, that may have helped

in getting the approval for them to come in. And then after the first year, they were there because the money kept coming and the results, good scientific results came out of it. So when you say parapsychology, specifically what were you attempting to study? So most of parapsychology, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams, they have all that. And then that has been structured by, you know, people doing experiments, for example, you know, trying to move objects course, send messages psychically to other people, or guessing what's written in a closed envelope and so on, that kind of thing. But again, those were done by good experimentalists, but it was, where is the physics of it?

I mean, you know, because in physics, you know, those things are not supposed to happen. Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of. That's right. And that, you know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that. But it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other. Relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict. I was reading something that was, God, I just glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door but I was gonna ask Jamie to pull it up. There's new research that

shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and other animals they believe do when they navigate terrain, they think that human beings have this ability, that perhaps it's something that we have ignored so long it's atrophied or it's not something that we use. That's a question for you know biologists or specialists of the brain, although it may not be in the brain itself. It may be diffused in the organism. So I'm not really qualified, you know.

Well, I was going to ask Jamie to pull up the article, but the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of, humans like other animals may sense Earth's magnetic field. Yeah, this is it. Okay, this is from a while ago. This is from 2019. Okay, this is not the same article, but it's probably a rehash. There's another similar one here from like a month ago. That's the exact same title. Yes, that's what I saw. This episode is brought to you by Intuit Turbo Tax. We're all just trying to level up, right? I'm always trying to push myself, whether it's training, learning something new, or just trying to level up, right? I'm always trying to push myself, whether it's training, learning something new, or just trying to be a better human.

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it TurboTax. Get an expert now at TurboTax.com. You know if you look at the history of the islands in the Pacific like I spent some time in Tahiti, and I looked at their traditions. They were navigating the Pacific fine. They knew where they were going. Now, part of that was navigating with the moon, but part of it was something else. And on every ship, they had one man who was gifted in guiding with respect, of course, guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like and to the moon and so on. But also, that's never really been explained. They had an uncanny ability to get to the right islands you know on the way to their destination and to guide those ships otherwise they would have

been you know they didn't have compasses right and there are books now coming out and certainly I found some of those books in Tahiti about the history of that and the research that's been done into those people. But they were special people. They were gifted. That's not something you know that I could do have you heard or listened to the telepathy tapes With the telepathy tapes are you aware of this? Vaguely it's a podcast that's about nonverbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability provable they've got

Dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects. The child, completely locked off, can't see them at all, will say and write down what those objects are, colors, numbers in sequence, and very accurately. And so they believe that this is something that, well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish, felt like it was something that they well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish. Felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about, and so they didn't want to talk about it openly. But once they started gathering up information, they got more people to open up about this, then they start documenting it. And they start coming

up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other. And it's just utterly fascinating, because they're showing that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other and it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on. There's some way of transferring information back and forth, including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive but also transmit the same way these children have. So people that aren't nonverbal and they aren't autistic, these people are able to do it as well. They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.

And there are companies in Silicon Valley that are heavily involved in advanced processing and advanced programming, specifically recruiting young men and women with that kind of talent. One of my, I have three grandsons that I love and one of them is, it's not clear, you know, whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of that, you know, some of those indications of some sort of a gift of thinking and getting information in ways that are very different from the. Now, it may be that in evolution, the reason sort of quote, lower animals can do it and

we cannot is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run. So it may be just one of the dormant abilities that we have that most of us don't develop. And we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's disturbing for the rest of the class. And perhaps it's something that people had before language. And language, and then written language, and then, of course, media sort of eroded those abilities.

Yes. eroded those abilities. Yes, and you find that also in South America and in Australia, you know, and Australia, New Zealand, and the indigenous people. Yes, natives, but, you know, up to the current population. Right. So perhaps it's something that we all had and we've lost it. Now when you were initially studying parapsychology, what were the protocols that you were using? Like how were you trying to determine whether or not people were capable? So, you know, again, in my own, I've studied parapsychology more as a personal interest, but Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Targ were doing it with scientific controls. I mean, that was the point, that to look at it from a physics point of view, not just from a parapsychology or psychology point of view.

So they were designing tests that were more tied to physical quantities. And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swann, who was an artist from New York. He was very uncomfortable with California. The sky is always blue. You know, it's boring and so on. He liked New York. He liked the animation of the city and his friends and so on. But I knew, of course, of him. I had read some of the things. So when he came to SRI, he told me that remote viewing is one thing, parapsychology, but it should be applied to science. And also, it had to be applied to intelligence in the sense of the intelligence agencies were

funding SRI to do this. The three-letter agencies, there were a number of them who were very interested because they knew that gift existed in pilots and a number of people. And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications? Mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point. Oh, so they were trying to... But also, you know, lost spacecraft, they found a lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa and so on, by parapsychology.

Whose spacecraft? Ours? No, it was Russian. So they found it through like remote viewing? Yes. Really? So when, so Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI. He wanted to, he had never been in a scientific institution that's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else.

So he wanted to know, he saw that as the next domain where primary psychology could be applied in a strict scientific rational way. So I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to. And I told him, do you know how a computer finds data? You have a computer, a machine full of chips, how does it deal with the real world? And he said, I have no idea. I mean, I've never looked inside a computer.

And I said, well, there's three ways. As a programmer, I can declare a variable. I can say x is always going to be 3.14, okay, or pi. But in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data, but it's going to be different. The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time. But I can give you the address, it's 2314. 2314 is where I'm going to put the age of the patient. But it's going to be different with every patient.

So that's direct addressing, but I can also put in that location, I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program. And that's indirect addressing. And then there's the rest of the world, which is too big to put inside the machine. The machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited. So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else, you know, maybe

the World Bank or the Library of Congress. And there I cannot give you the address, but I can give you a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it. And he said, you know, that's it. That's what I need. And then he came up with the idea of coordinate remote

viewing out of that conversation I had with him. So that was my contribution to the actual project at the beginning. And then he thought as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude because we were going to look at, they were going to, I wasn't officially part of the, but I was, you know, I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project. So I was one of the good guys. So we had many conversations with coffee and so on in the lab with Ingo and later with Yuri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me.

So I tried to, in some cases, they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this, even though I wasn't on the project itself, but somebody who was inside so that the information didn't get out into the real world until they were ready to actually publish it, because everybody wanted to kill their project. I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, this can't work. They are making it up. They are fooled by a press digitator. You know, Yuri Geller is a magician and all those things.

Well, he is a magician, but he's also, you know, an extraordinary psychic. So, so could you explain, so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft, so how do they, what's the environment in which they remote view, how do they set this up? So Ingo, after the project was pretty much over, there was some continuous studies, and Ingo brought me back to work with him because he wanted to write a book that would be a synthesis of his methodology, to answer your question of how do you do this.

And he had a very structured way of doing that with a number of, what he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level. So it was step by step. So there was a first, you had a pad of paper you know and the pen and He was sitting at the end. The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it in In a room that had nothing on the walls. No windows. There was a chair here and a chair there

So he was away from me. I couldn't see what he was reading. He had a stack of targets that were places on the Earth. And I mean, obviously, the idea was to look at what was going on in Vladivostok or in some color. When you say a stack of targets, can you explain, like, is it a map? Is it just coordinates? It was just called in it so just numbers I've gotten the maps and and those were test things from you know

Geographic features on the earth cities mountains and so on so He would read out the coordinates and I had a pad of paper and the number two pencil. So everything was very coded, you know, very straight. And I would draw something that he called an ideogram. So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be. And then just first impression. His theory, which I think, having experienced it, we did that for a year. Now I had a job somewhere else, but I was coming two mornings a week to work with him. This was classified.

So other people at SRI had no idea what was going on in that room that was dedicated to his work. And he would read out his idea was that we can all get that signal. There is a signal. If I give you a longitudinal latitude, you potentially can describe what's there, if it's a city, if it's a mountain, if it's someplace in the country. The reason you cannot is that the signal is overwhelming. The signal is extraordinarily large, much larger than we can hold it in our brains. So the people who do that have a way of processing

the signal and recalling it. And that's the secret. That's the main thing to me that's come out of the SRI study among many things. But so his idea was you have to stop the signal, you have to catch it. It's going to be very, very fast and most people just go on with their life. They just did just a passing thing. But you can recall the signal. So he would read out the coordinates again. And now my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves and then

a city with skyscrapers, if we do that a number of ways. Now, there are a lot of errors that can come in, and then we can think we recognize it and try to name it. That's a thing you shouldn't do. You shouldn't try to name it, because to name it, put it in the other half of the brain, which is logical and rational. And so the idea is to label that as an error. half of the brain, which is logical and rational.

So the idea is to label that as an error. It's not a city by the bay. It's something else. So we go on and we keep just going on. So you have to do that with a very patient guide to train yourself to do that. And SRI, HAL and Ingo did that very well in training a cadre of people who could be almost, not quite, but almost as good as Ingo. There were a couple who were as good as he was. One time, I said, but Ingo, you know, I'm not psychic.

He said, well, you know, think about that because you've shown evidence of having, of understanding the process. You know, there are some things that I did that would be classified as psychic. But I cannot do it, I cannot control it. Right, it just happens randomly Yeah, what kind of like what kind of things? Well one time I get there 830 in the morning. We close the door

And he gave gives me a set of coordinates Longitude and latitude somewhere and I get very cold right away and I get dizzy. You know, I mean, I have to grab the table and I'm not drawing anything and Ingo says, Jack, what's wrong? And I said, Ingo, I don't know where you're sending me but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid, I'm afraid of falling and you know, I really don't feel well.

And he said, you are on top of a peak in the Andes. Wow. So he pulls out the thing, he gives it to me that comes from a photograph of the Andes taken from an airplane with this peak. And they computed the coordinates of the peak and that's what he was giving me. I was there. You felt it physically. Did you see it or did you just feel it? No, it was just a physiological reaction on my whole body.

I was trembling. Exactly as if you were on a peak. I was freezing cold, and I was very afraid of falling. I was falling. Had you had any of these that didn't work? Did they try any core? Oh, yeah, sure. But you should not use me as a remote viewer to launch a Tomahawk over somewhere. That's a problem that, of course, the Army has.

Is it good enough so we can launch a rocket to destroy that thing? Who is the best at it? Who's the best at remote? Is there one person consistently accurate? There are a couple and they are not, you know, Ingo was known because he wrote about it and so on. Many of them, Joe McMonigle is probably the best one alive today. He described a structure and he described a ship that was being built

by the Russians, which was a super submarine in a hangar somewhere. And the Navy just laughed at him. They said, that's crazy. You know, it's in a hangar somewhere. And the Navy just laughed at him. They said, that's crazy. It's in a hangar away from the sea. So why would you build a ship when you don't have the ocean? Well, it turned out he was right. And it was a super class new Soviet submarine.

It described the inside of the building, which had no windows and so on. And yeah, I mean, from a satellite, they could see the building, but they couldn't see inside the building. He described what was inside the building, he described the submarine, he described the length,

and he actually measured it psychically. And that turned out to be right. And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug a channel to the sea and off it went. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Being independent is good, but you should never be afraid to ask for help when you need it. After all, we're only human, we can't know everything. That's why it's crucial to have a support system. People you can go to when it gets rough. Think of friends, family members, your

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He was right, you know enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing. And also, they came up with a way of measuring, actually qualifying the value of your perception. So I told Ingo, let's do another one because I'm on the roll here You know after they speak in the end is he said no Jacques, you know, you're going home now. I Said it's nine o'clock. You know, we've only been here half an hour Why are you sending me home? I mean, this is great. I know I got it He said yeah, you got it. You you don't need all the levels. I mean you got to the top level you were there Why did he want to send you home he said I want you to stay with that feeling I don't want to do another one that you miss and so on I want you to keep that in mind Because you got the whole thing is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieving results? Yes. So he didn't want to bombard you with it.

You know, every test subject and so on. So he didn't want to give you another experience. He wanted you to take that experience and just sit with it. Keep the experience with me during the day because I got the whole signal. Right. And did you feel like that if you did that, it would aid you in your ability to do it in the future? It would, yes, I would lose that sense of direct access to something that bypasses the brain. You know, I'm, basically, you know, I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy,

so I use the part of my brain that's analytical, you know, and I'm a good programmer, computer programmer and so on. This is not, this is very different. This is grabbing a signal which has everything in it, and being able to catch it very fast and just get a little bit of information and then catch it again, recall it.

That's what we were doing that, five times, six times, ten times, until making sure that you don't try to name it, you don't try to put, you know, a description on top of it, and just stay with the signal. And that, I think that's an amazing contribution from what Dr. Puthoff and Targ and some of their subjects did. Was there a specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able

to perceive these coordinates or perceive whatever signal you're getting from remote viewing? There was. I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo for what he was capable of doing, and his art and his personality and so on. He was very much admired in the whole team. And here, I think it was the structure also of the experiment. I trusted

what he was trying to teach me. I've always... So you were open to it? Yes. You trusted it so you were open to it? I had both the admiration and the trust. Did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place Did you there was it was there a way of counting yourself into idea is not to put my mind into it Hmm just to let it just let it come just because my mind is analytical right of course and

You know I was always Very good in math. I mean, you have to be, if you're going to be an astronomer. So I can be very structured and so on. This is not structured, this is boom. And then you can begin to analyze it, but you have to analyze it keeping your rational mind away from it. You just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information or perceive it.

Not to project what it is. Right, just let it happen to you. And so you had seen him do this, and so you knew that this was a valid field of research, so you were just open to it and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to you. Did it happen any other time that resembled the Andes peaks? Where you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling? Did you have that feeling with anything else? Yes, I had some of that, but this one was just completely shocking because it was... I think that's a

characteristic of the when you really get it, you know, right is no question and You know in the movie Patton. Yes pattern is sent to North Africa Because to fight Rommel Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army isn't ready to invade Europe but wants to start controlling the Germans in North Africa. He's sent there, he lands. There is a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was a battle and the Americans were decimated by Rommel, who was just a genius German general, great with tanks. Just like he was. Patton considered him as his major enemy, because both of them understood tanks.

And so Patton gets in the Jeep. That's in the movie. It's just absolutely perfect. I've checked that this was historical, exact in the movie. They drive to the site of the battle in the desert in the jeep. They get to a fork in the road and the driver takes to the left. And Patton said, son, why don't we go to the right? Because that's where the battle was.

And the driver says, sir, you know, with all due respect, I mean, I was there in that battle, it's on the left. He said, trust me, go to the right. They go to the right and they get to the edge of the plateau where you see a big plane and Patton says, this is where the battle was with Hannibal came from the left with his elephants, you know, and the battle was there, you know, and I had been there. I was there. Patton thought that he was reincarn get here with this general who thinks he's reincarnated who fought against Hannibal?

I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital funds with people who had that kind of intuition. You think finance is driven by greed and so on, but at some level, greed doesn't really matter. It's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done. With these gadgets, with computers, with rockets and so on, you're going to go to a new generation of things. So it hasn't been done before.

The financial people, you've got 10 engineers in front of you who can do it. There is one who will succeed, nine who's going to fail. And you have to pick the thinking that's going to succeed. It's not the money and it's not the money, and it's not the technology. It's the mind of the driver who will say, no, let's go to the right. Let's not go to the left.

You know, I mean, Patton was extraordinary in that. I mean, he was a remote viewer. And he demonstrated that again and again. And there are some interesting books that I've collected from some of his lieutenants. You would also have to consider that's an extraordinary state of mind. To be a general in a world war and the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war is Got to be a state of mind. It's very very unusual with so many consequences so much pressure

That it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them because you are you must be In a heightened state of awareness. Yes. Because just of the consequences of your life. Exactly. But you also have to be detached. I mean, you know, eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the, you know, the bodies of soldiers have been killed, they're burning tanks and everything else. They show that in the movie. I mean, that's where he's supposed to go.

But his mind is at a different level. When did they first start researching this? When did they believe that this was an ability that some people had? Oh, way back in antiquity. Really? Yeah. And, you know, they had seers that the king would go consult whether he should engage in a war with them. The Greeks had the Pythia, who was a woman.

They had a volcanic area where there were fumes coming out of the earth, you know, that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on. And there was a special cult around that place. And you know, the king would go there before a great decision and would ask the message from the underworld, or the message from the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth. You know, Hitler, Adolf Hitler, was in his, before the war, you know, as when he got to be the leader of Germany, he exhibited and he very much believed in those powers. I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much and he started making mistakes and that could be used against him.

Well, he was also doing a lot of drugs. You have to get the ego out of the way. Right. Of course, that's the hardest thing for us to do. Especially to a narcissist dictator who's on drugs. That's right. That's right.

Well, that's always the age-old problem with Sears. How do you know who's a charlatan and who's real? Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics. There's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists, that are just trying to swindle people out of money. But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities. And that is something that people have sort of recognized forever, but it's always been dismissed especially in this modern-day

Reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are you know? Tried true proven agreed upon you know and then trust the science like this this concept that Well, I think as you know Well, I think in science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things and will give you guides to, you know... Well, I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes, and I'm hoping the success of this, and then they're going to do a Whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage

So you're gonna be able to see it for yourself and I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule Because there's a bunch of scientists wouldn't and I think this is with the UAP topic as well The UFO topic as well. I think this is with the UAP topic as well, the UFO topic as well. I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool. And to a very respected scientist whose research is very important, as you were talking about with the IBM thing where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these, why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff? Fortunately, certainly in California, there are people who can take risk and put a few

million dollars behind something. Shout out to Stanford. And as you know, I come from France, and in France, it's very, very hard to do that, you know, because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on. Even though France has had some of the brightest people in that kind of research. So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture? Yeah. It's, you know, sort of everything has to be rational.

Yeah. America's a little more chaotic. And they also, as you know, France has had, for a long time, has had a project on UFOs, an official project, and that takes reports from the public and they investigate them and they it's a very small team but they have access to all the resources of French research so they can you know they can get the weather people they can get the you know the Air Force they can get the radar people they can get all of that so they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of the government. So it's very powerful. So they will explain, they find a rational explanation for about

95% of all the reports, which is true. I agree with that. I've been there. So it's about 95% you can explain away. It's not hoaxes. Those are people who really think that they've seen something unusual. But what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disk. And then after a while, things change and so on. Ball lightning.

Yeah, there's a few things. They really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over. There are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that really could surprise you, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. Then what's interesting is the other 5%. The other 5% is in your face. I have reports of something that moved like the Tic-Tac from the French Air Force in the 50s. There was a French jet over Morocco that was flying,

and there was a radar tracking the jet. And I had the reports from the French Air Force with the chart and that the thing he was chasing went up, you know, in a fraction of a second went to the top of the atmosphere, you know, just like the Nimitz case. So those things are not new. I mean, they are in the files if you take the trouble to look at the files. And they're in the files far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things. Absolutely. Especially in the 50s. Right. Well the Kenneth Arnold case...

They didn't have anything that had gone into space. There's a bunch of cases that rule out the possibility of human technology. When you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things. We were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us. Now we are in that time where you see things, you go, well, how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some

undisclosed propulsion system. That's possible today, at least theoretically. We entertain those ideas, but back then, this is one of the most fascinating things. I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months and There was this the series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters Not just right now. I'm on the invisible college, but the last ones that I read were the ones on Various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories. And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact.

Like right now I think in people's minds the gray aliens are so iconic, a flying saucer like that, that's a copy of the sport model from Bob Lazar's Adventures. These things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them. You know, you look for them. If you see something, you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that. But the problem is these stories go way before that. They're too similar. They go a long, long way back, and there's too many that are very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where a rational person would have to say, maybe

there's something more to this. What do you got there? I brought you this. It's a token. It's not a coin. It's a token from Burgundy in France from the, you know, a few centuries ago. The Duke of Burgundy was under attack. There was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the king was fighting the noble, the great nobility and so on was in cahoots to get rid of the king and so on. They were going to be attacked. And he needed money to raise an army, and he appealed to people in Burgundy to send him money.

And this was a token that they would, the king, the duke, you know, would give people who had given him money to raise this army. And on the face of it is this disc that's holding up, that's protecting the land from forces above. There are all these arrows raining down on the land, and the land is protected by this flying disc. So it

doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer at that time, but the idea has always been there of you know disc-like objects that were not meteors, that were not you know all the natural explanation, that were real disks. You find that in legends, you find that in history way back. Jimmy, can you see if you can find an image of this we could show people? You found it? Yeah, that's it. Yep. Yes. Wow. And you see it's protecting the land and it's hovering in the sky, protecting it from all

the thunder clouds above. Well, you know, there were a few of those things in history and, you know, I've, as you know, I've collected those with a group of... Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield? Well it is shown as a shield that's going to stop all those arrows. Right, but that's what they used to stop arrows back then, they used a shield. Yes, yes. So doesn't that just make, I mean, that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO.

It seems to me to be a shield that they would protect. Yes, but it's also, you know, it's not exactly the shape of a shield. Most shields are, you know, more oblong, but some of them are round. But the point is it's hovering in the sky protecting the land underneath. I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the Vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described. They've always been a thing that people have described. Dr. Jean-Pierre C. L'Alemeur, Ph.D. And we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records because of

course when people describe something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it, you know, it could be the devil, it could be that. So they had to see a priest and confess, and they were in trouble. If you reported that thing, most of the time, you'd be in trouble because it couldn't be a normal thing. So today they just fire you from wherever you work. Yeah, probably. Or maybe you're a kook and then stop you from...

At least they don't burn you alive anymore. And people, yeah, that's lucky. But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear of being ridiculed, and that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in. You don't want to think, oh, there's Kooky Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us. The best cases I get are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something and they've described you know frankly UFOs to me and that looks way different right so that coin is much more compelling because that looks like something flying in the sky above the city that doesn't look like a shield at

all and what is that peak at the bottom of it yeah that's very different yeah you can tell much more things have been in the culture, you know, repressed in the culture. And the anthropologists don't want to look at that. There's a really old painting, like a biblical painting of these people that look like they're flying around and like seated in these crafts. Yes. They're in the sky. I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation. What is that artist depicting? So usually the explanation when you read what the historians have said, it's

read what the historians have said, it's supposed to be some god or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and so on. But when you look at the detail, I mean, it really looks like a machine. It really looks mechanical. See if you can find that image, Jamie. You know the one I'm talking about, right? First guess is this one. Yeah, that's exactly that image, Jamie. You know the one I'm talking about, right? This one? Yeah, that's exactly it. Thank you. But we wanted to. The one on the lower right, well, both of them.

But the lower, like, what is that? That looks like a craft. It looks like someone's seated in a craft. It's an envoy from God or an angel who's been sent. But the problem with those is that the painting, it may relate to something that was written in the third century, and the painting is a 16th century painting.

So we didn't look at that that much. I mean, it's interesting from a, like the one with the Virgin, with the, so it may be that the artist was witness to something and he wanted to memorialize it and he put it in his painting, but it's not tied to the time of the Virgin, you know. Right, right, right. They just added it in there.

We can't... What is that supposed to be in the background? We stayed away from that. We wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something. Right, not just artwork. But it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts. And look, what is that thing? Like what the hell? And there is a communication with the man

who's looking up at it. He's looking at it and there's a sense of that he's actually seeing it and having a sense of what it is. It's like an Easter egg that someone put into the painting. So this may be that the artist sort of put that in as a side. Of course, the main theme is the Virgin and the Child. What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says Inside Ancient?

Yeah, that one. What the hell is that? That's what really freaks me out, is the paintings on cave walls that look just like grays. These bizarre paintings of things that just look like they are people wearing helmets. And the most interesting to me comes from the Sahara. You know, I have friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in Africa and so on and in part of the Sahara. So I say, well, the Sahara is just sand. Well, it's just sand today.

But we know that at one time it was flourishing. There were forests. There was water. In fact, there is water, but it's underground water. It's a large amount of underground water. There was a sea there at one time. And so there probably was an earlier civilization, and some of those come from the Tassili. The Tassili

is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations. So there were a lot of people living there at one time and they painted that on the rocks. See if you can find some of those Jamie? Yeah, you see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted, similar things. It's all over the world, in completely separate environments, very similar features in these cave paintings. And well I think archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that, I think they would say. But the problem is that we don't correlate it.

They didn't write anything. Right. It's open to interpretation. We don't have a good correlation, so we have to keep looking for that. But that's fascinating. But in our book, we made the rule that, number one, we don't want isolated human figures, even with suits and so on. We really want a device, a flying device.

Otherwise, you could fill 40 books with images of strange creatures. Right. 40 books with images of strange creatures. I mean, what are the things that people see around the ranch now? Skinwalker? In Utah, in Arizona, and all of that. So you have to be careful on the boundaries of those things. But we wanted to get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying

disk that was strange to them in their culture. And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures. So with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the moon, looking at the rising time of the sun, and all that was important for their agriculture. So they knew their environment very well, better than we do as people living in cities. So we can take that to some extent that has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of a number of those across different centuries. But in that book, we were careful to break the book into sections corresponding to different evolution of the culture, explaining first a couple of pages what was happening during

that time in terms of new inventions, like when the telescope was invented, when certain things were discovered and so on. So we were careful to put it in context with every reinterpreting the description by the witness in the context that was appropriate. Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth,

and that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories. The stories are really similar from the 1700s to the 1800s into the 20th century and then you again now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book and there's I think there's people that are grifters and I think they you know I probably had a few of them on they've they've they are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories. Also now we think that the government has the answer. So people spend their time writing to different agencies

and listening to reports from pilots, which is fine of course, and people in the military, people in the intelligence community. But those are very valuable because they have because now they have instruments to actually measure what they see on the F-18 and so on, and they are covered by radar and by AWACS and everything else. So we can rely on that. So scientists and many people like the numerical aspect of it.

I don't do that. I don't pretend to have access to that. We had access under Bigelow and under Bass to some of that, including some of the classified things that had happened. But there is a much richer pool of data which is, you know, a friend tells me about the sighting in the country somewhere. I can go there, I can go see the people, and I can find out exactly what happened. And I continue to do that. And that's most of my data and it's ten times bigger than the stuff

they talk about from the Pentagon. I mean it's real data from that and I don't need to have a clearance to go see the people and sit down. If I'm lucky they'll invite me for lunch and I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the people who took care of the cattle and they'll tell me. That's where most of my information is really coming from and it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face, and it's consistent. How consistent are the shapes of the crafts?

It's a tough question. Many of the descriptions have to do with discs. And eggs as well, right? Different sizes. Some of them are very large. A number of descriptions have to do with, for a long time, with cigar-shaped objects, cylindrical, rounded at the end, sometimes with what people describe as windows that may just be openings with light in the side of it.

Doesn't have to be what we think of as a window. And then you have some irregular shapes, just balls of light that physicists interpret as maybe plasma, but plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe, but people have seen some of those things for minutes and longer, long enough to take pictures of it, so on. And it's not necessarily glowing. It's not necessarily luminous the way plasma would be. So we don't know what they are. And they've been reported all over the world.

Again, there are paintings of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century that I've collected and published. So we have these different categories. What are the most compelling paintings that we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s? I think there is a beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving, that seem to be suspended in the air, very distinct blue spheres that were seen and somebody recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene.

Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was. And what year was this painting from? I don't remember the year, I couldn't tell you. But it's a very old painting. 16th, 17th century. Do you know the name of it, like so Jamie could try to find it online?

No, I could send you the picture. Okay, Okay. So there's also a bunch of depictions of egg-shaped crafts. Yes. This is very common as well, right? Yes. And the couple that you had in one of your books from, was it the mining people from was it in California or was it you? Wrote a book

The shape with Paula Harris called Trinity about an egg-shaped object that happened 1945 near White Sands. Now we have reinvestigated it. The first book was criticized appropriately by someone who said, I hadn't gone to enough of the written records.

Well, now we have done that. So we've republished the book. It's called Trinity. It covers three cases. In all three cases, the object is egg-shaped, the size of a medium-sized truck. It would fit in this room. It would be about the size of this room. Then there is a case in Socorro, and there is a case in Socorro and there is a case in Valençol. Socorro and Valençol, and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that, because it's two years before Roswell, and there were witnesses there.

You know, in Roswell there were no witnesses. There were people who came later who found the stuff and they reconstructed the story and it's a very interesting story. But at Trinity they saw it arrive and they saw it crash. And they were there for 10 days afterwards watching the recovery. And they went inside. One of them went inside, and his father went inside also. So we have a very rich description of that. And where is it in the literature? Nowhere.

I mean, you know, Paola Harris found this, did research for four years on that, and then told me about it, and then we did another four years of research together at the site and we found a lot of correlations. But the Socorro case and the Valensoll case... Could you explain, tell me before we move on to those other cases, what correlations did you find? Well, in all three cases it's an egg-shaped object. In all three cases, there are traces that could be seen, could be described, could be

analyzed. In all three cases, beings are short. They are about three feet, three and a half feet. They breathe air. What kind of extra terrestrial is it that comes here and breathes the air? If we go to the Moon, we're not going to breathe the air. How do we know that it breathes at all? How do we know that these things breathe at all? They had no breathing equipment, they were functioning normally. They had two eyes, a small nose, a small mouth.

But couldn't they possibly be some sort of creation? Instead of being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life? So I've asked Gary Nolan about that, you know, I'm not a biologist and I think it would be known if somebody had created a metahuman. I don't mean somebody, I mean another life form from somewhere else. There were stories of the Russians actually thinking about creating a dwarf, you know, human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy, you know, to have a big rocket. It turned out they found a Corollary.

So they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter. But the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a humanoid that could pilot a spaceship. Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human-ape hybrid. They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human-chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought. First of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be? But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee-human warriors. warriors? There was no, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that.

The creatures that are described in Socorro, in New Mexico, and I've been very involved in from the beginning, from day one, involve creatures that are about three feet tall, that breathe our air, recognize our signals, communicate with us in funny ways, even mentally. I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on in all three cases. And what's interesting is people can argue about Trinity all they want, like they argue about Roswell. But the case in Socorro and the case in France, in Valenso, were investigated by governments, not by the local UFO group. Although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases. But they were, in Socorro, it was first the local police, local policemen saw the craft and the beings and described what happened.

He was terrified when the thing took off. He thought it was something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert. It's an area that's still in the same state today. I've gone back there with Dr. Hynick's son, you know, with Paul Hynick a few months ago. I've gone several times there. And so after the police, turned out the FBI was in town on another case. They had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case. It wasn't a federal case, but they helped preserve the traces, you know, the FBI way. And the local police was happy to have them there. And then there was the state police came in and did an investigation. And then people from the base came in with experts in explosives, experts in recovery

of weapons and rockets and so on, because they felt it might be something that had come from the Trinity Range that was out of its way and had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility, including financial responsibility, if something was destroyed or whatever. So this was very serious. I have the whole file. Okay, it's a big file.

Nobody's looking at it. I mean, the investigation in Washington, now they are saying, we're going to look at the cases of the last 12 months. What kind of science is that? Can you imagine scientists reading this? And this is the way they are going to solve the UFO problem, by looking at vague pictures of lights in the sky for one year, why don't they go back to those records?

Those are federal records. The case in Valensoil, five agencies of the French government. This guy was a farmer. He had a field where he was growing plants to make perfume. This was a high- level, expensive crop. This wasn't just alfalfa or something. And he goes there at five o'clock in the morning because he wants to do some, to water the thing

and so on before the sun is up because it's going to be very, in the south of France, it's going to be very hot. You can't work in the field during the early afternoon. So he wants to be done with that. He sees this contraption in the middle of the field crushing the plants. And so he sneaks in and he's paralyzed. There is an egg-shaped object just like the one at Trinity, just like the one in Socorro.

It's the size of a mid-sized truck. There are two creatures in front of it, human- you know, human looking, two eyes, breathing air. They look at him sort of amused and one of them has something on his belt, takes out, pointed at him and that's when he's paralyzed. Now he's not, you know, as you know, I'm not a doctor but I've gone to doctors about what kind of paralysis is that where you can stand up and watch something, you just can't move. They said, well, there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor nerves, but

you'll still be up and aware. You're not going to fall down in a heap. And from there he sees them going back inside the thing. The thing takes off. It takes off like a shot out of a gun and it vanishes in midair. Now he goes to see the gendarmes. This man is fairly wealthy. He owns quite a bit of several fields, expensive crops. His wife is the mayor of the town. The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the resistance

in World War II. When he was young, he joined the resistance, and the resistance in that part of France fought in the Alps against the Germans, and they were regarded as heroes of World War II. And so the gendarmes are very careful with him. There are some things he's not going to tell the gendarmes because he thinks, and I went there, he didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris, he didn't want to be on TV, he wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else. And he was aware of some of his buddies. This is a part of France where people talk, but they have secrets too.

I mean, historically, you know, there are things like that in the U.S., you know, parts where people are not going to talk to strangers. The only reason I could go there was that I went there with a lady who was from Paris, was with the government. She was with the Gould's government. She had the rank of ambassador, and she had a vacation home there. So we went there for three days days and she knew everybody there. He told us what he thought might happen again. So he didn't want the gendarmes mixed in with what he was doing.

Why did he think that something was going to happen again? They, evidently, and you know, he swore to secrecy about what it was, but evidently there was communication with the beings when he was there. And so these beings are just tiny, look like people, did they have different features than us? Or was it just human features? They are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Socorro. So in that book you have actually two, two and three, you have seven creatures that are humanoid, that breathe our air, that seem to understand us, you know, the visual, you know, there is visual contact. Well, we can have visual contact with animals. I mean, that doesn't mean they are human or meta-human,

but there is messages that come through all of that, that the witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases. So in Socorro, finally the Air Force went there. They threw the Air Force out because the Air Force said, well, you know, that's just a gadget, you know, from the from the base and you know, that was stupid. So they finally sent Dr. Hynek there. And Dr. Hynek asked me to organize the files that were coming. I was at Northwestern at the time, working.

I had done my PhD already, and I was on the staff of the computing center. And we had a small team trying to help you know free trying to help high-neck keep the files together so we we were you know in communication with him the whole time and then I put the files together and I have a file you know this is the official file so these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them.

But did they talk about it at all? It was very personal. Very personal. Yeah. There had been a communication that transcended their life. There was something else, something outside. So you could almost call it sort of a religious feeling, but it wasn't about divinity or God specifically,

but it was about the you know the other side of life some bigger meaningful life mmm that's that's their interpretation it may not be there may be other things that they are trying to communicate but it was very profound. Yes. And all three cases had similar stories in that regard. And in all three cases, there are traces that were measured. There is technology of sorts. And in the case of Socorro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon, you know, I mean a special balloon, right?

There were only 12 of them in the world and so on. Well in the book, people haven't noticed it, but in the book I was able to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a motor pool on the Army range at Wa Sands. He had given his team some instructions on how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well because White Sands is so big. When people went home, they could get lost at White Sands. then how are you going to find them? I mean, there are tracks, but there is no paved road at the time. How are you going to, you know, find them?

So you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for, you know, a lost car somewhere with a family in it. But so he made rules that they had to call periodically to report where they were when they went home 50 miles away across the desert so they could find them if there was something wrong with the car. He's driving home with his family. This is after the Socorro thing is done. They are all interrogating Lani Zamora, the cop who was driving that thing.

And he sees a light over the mountains in the southwest towards Mexico. But it's still in New Mexico, but it's in that direction. A light that's not a star, it's really bright. And the light gets brighter and brighter, and his car dies. Now he's head of a motor pool for the base. Everybody reports to him, and they have all the army cars and trucks and everything else, the half tracks. work. Radio should work. Radio doesn't work.

And the thing gets very bright and then it recedes. It goes away the way it apparently came in. We don't know if it came in or if it just got bright. The car starts. He goes home and then the next day he goes to his shop. He gets his staff together, he says, you guys are going to take this car apart. I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything

and the seats and so on. I want to see all of that on the floor. And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or if anything how that car stopped in the middle of the desert and they couldn't find anything and that report was an official report, okay, that was never published and it nails the whole thing, you know, that this was not a balloon. This was not an hallucination. The patrolman wasn't drunk, like they accused him of, or making up a story, and so on.

Lanny Zamora, when Dr. Hynek interrogated him, he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Hynek, okay? That's the kind of man he was. And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was bad reputation for the town of Socorro.

The tourists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying. And the Air Force said, well, it's a one witness case. There's this patrolman who saw this. There were 12 witnesses. There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who the thing

passed right over his car. He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of the car into the desert. Well, he called the police and reported it. There's a written report. He signed that report. We know his name. Without him having any knowledge of what happened.

That's right. I mean, he saw this some- Independently. One of your gashas tried to drive me off the road. There were several people on the road on the other side of this little desert thing that when it rains, the water rains all over the place, washes everything out, just sand and rocks.

But on the other side, there is a main road. Several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange. So the Air Force put that aside. They neglected to, you know, this was, and they just kept saying it was a one witness case. It wasn't. Most of those cases where they say it was one witness and you have to look for the other guys. And again, I brought you something, can I tell you about it? Sure, what did you bring? So this is something that the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime astronautics review in the world. So it took a couple of years for them to agree to look at

it and so on to look at the analysis. This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska, but on the Iowa side, there is this town, this suburb, with a park. This is about a week before Christmas in 1977. People are there having a good time in the park in the evening. It's getting dark. And I want to make sure I'm... Yeah.

They see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there. It looks like a round box with lights around it, and the lights are going around. It's pretty high, and it's flying over the town. And then a mass of liquid steel falls in the park. It falls on the levee in the park. There is about half a ton of it. Liquid, glowing. Has nothing, no business being there. So you have this mass of metal.

Obviously they call the... So it's glowing, you say it's molten? Yes. The weather is freezing. We know the temperature and everything else. It's freezing. The grass is on fire around it. They call the firemen, the firemen call the police.

The police gets there and the firemen get there. They stop the fire. The fire would have died by itself. There's no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing. I have the pictures, infrared, you know, Polaroid pictures of the thing glowing in the grass burning. I mean, liquid. And it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours,

and it cools down gradually. And then people take pieces of it as souvenirs. So I have the pieces of it and there they are. Now there was analysis done by two labs. Obviously the question is where did that come from? There is chromium, titanium, and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel, but the composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be. So one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab for industrial steel.

The investigators call the company. The company says, yes, we make steel. So we have furnaces, but we empty the furnaces. This is over a weekend. The factory is closed. There would be nobody there. And so they no liquid steel in our factory on that day. A ton of it.

They have, yeah. This is a half a ton that they found sitting there. So then they called the Strategic Air Command because B-52s fly over that town. B-52 is a big thing and the people saw something in the sky. So maybe it was the Air Force politely laughs at them and says, you know, we carry atom bombs, but we don't carry furnaces with molten steel. Okay, so go look somewhere else and say good luck. By the way, this is a way you could test it. This is a way.

I mean, the Air Force, we think, people think number one there is nothing in the blue book files worth looking at. That's not true. I spent four years, you know, Dr. Hynek had copies of all the files. The files were not classified. There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons, not because of the UFO, because of where it was or whatever, that I didn't have access to. I was just a graduate student, PhD. I went through, we convinced Dr. Hynek and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything

they had about UFOs. because before then it was just paper files all over the place. And if they were challenged by Carl Sagan or somebody like that at the time, they wouldn't be able to provide good statistics. So they agreed for me to get the files and redo, punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation and then my explanation for the cases. I did the whole thing, thousands and thousands of cases. They were right that majority were explainable.

What we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable. This one cannot be explained. And there are enough of those, there are hundreds of those, that scientists could have looked at. I went through the Air Force base with my French passport. At the time, I wasn't a citizen. You had to wait five years before you could apply for American citizenship. So I was working. I had a small contract that was completely unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the Blue Book Files. So I had access to essentially all the Blue Book Files.

But I went into the base with a spend those three days with Major Quentinilla and his staff going through the fires. They had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project, all that was fallen away. So this is, everything is going on now, this is for you by the way, this is for your special collection of weird things. This is essentially steel. There we go.

So that's the area where the mass of steel is growing. And so this steel you can make on earth. This is a composite of a bunch of different materials. It's not exactly the steel that you would use in construction, but it is essentially steel. I gave my samples to Stanford so that we could redo the analysis, not the chemical analysis, but the isotope analysis. Dr. Nolan and I took it to the lab.

Dr. Nolan had two series of instruments that could do the analysis. We did both and we confirmed essentially this. So there was no special change in the isotope ratios. If there was, that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not a hoax. Then you know for sure it's not a hoax because that's high caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special instrument experts to interpret it. Right, but that wasn't the case. No, no.

So the isotopes hadn't been manipulated. Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can explain? So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to reliable cases, because I don't want to give him junk. There's a lot of junk floating around that people think is strange. So, yes, we're going through all those, you know, and the idea is to publish it as we go, you know, to publish everything as we go.

There are some that give the indication of being bad, you know, as always in science we have to be careful. Our colleagues will say, very good, congratulations, you did that with one instrument. Now, you should redo it with a different lab, with a different machine, and see what they find. Because Dr. Nolan has some of those machines, or machines that he's invented at Stanford. But they are tied to biology. This is not biology. This is steel.

And this is iron or copper or whatever. So we have to redo it with a different... So in this case, we have redone it with a different line of machines. There is a French machine that costs something like $6 million that would fill half of this room that's extremely good for testing for isotopes, but only on four different elements. With the other machine, the biological machine, we get the whole spectrum, except for some of the extreme elements like radioactive elements and so on. So what samples have they found that have been the most compelling? We're still working on that, but this paper is important even though we didn't find something

out of range, but in a way that's validation of what you have to do when somebody presents you with that kind of sample. Those are the steps. This is where the science is today. This is what the technology can tell you. So this is sort of a stake in the ground, even though we didn't find ET, okay? But we didn't find ET science.

You found physical evidence of something. But we've got the technology now. We know how to do it. One problem we had was that neither one of us is an expert in materials. We're not experts in steel. So the people who, this was reviewed by people who were materials experts. And they came back with a whole page of questions. Why didn't you look at this?

Why didn't you measure that? So Dr. Nolan and the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper. So that's what you have to go through before scientists would look the paper. So that's what you have to go through before scientists will look at it. But this one is in the literature, in the scientific literature.

It's not in some UFO magazine in New Mexico. And now we have the methodology. We can apply it to the others. There are some that we've done with one machine where there are indications. Now at Stanford, Stanford is funny because you've had three generations of people at Stanford looking at this. Before Dr. Nolan, I was there and I was gathering data and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on.

And I worked for Professor Sturrock who unfortunately died a few months ago at over 100, but he was still working in astrophysics. I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years looking at galaxies, looking at the structure of the sun, and looking at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on. He was a computer guy and we also looked at UFO materials, especially a case from Brazil which he published. He got financial support to do the isotope analysis and some of it was arguably different. So we want to redo it.

He donated all his materials to me when he retired. So I have all that and I passed it to Dr. Nolan. So Stanford now is acquiring a reputation as being a UFO analysis place. Yeah, for sure. But it went from essentially solar physics and very high energy physics, you know, that I was working on with Dr. Sterock, to me with the computing center and now with Dr. Noland in the medical school. So we've had, you know, they are in trouble.

Well I'm glad you're willing to do that. I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct, that it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy, that they had discovered something along those lines. Well, I've seen those books, I've heard those things on the internet. The question is, scientists will want to look at this. They want to know, how did you do it, how did you prepare the sample. We were given access to a sample that's that in fact is very strange and it has different colors on it. It fits in the

palm of your hand, you know, so it's a significant size. Remember, Dr. Nolan is looking at individual human cells with his device. So anything more than 10 grams, we don't need. We can work with very little material, although of course we want to do different things with different parts of it. But this thing had some very interesting incrustation of a red deposit. And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs and some signed disclaimers saying they would not scrape off the interesting deposits

that were on it. Well, all of them did. I mean, after signing the thing. By the time it came to me, most of the interesting red stuff had been scraped off. So I don't know what they did. And I don't know what machine they used, and they didn't publish a paper. It took us four years to publish this paper.

The paper came from Stanford with four PhDs writing it. So the bar is pretty high if you're going to actually publish this in an international review. Yeah, and with an interesting title, too. So, we'll do others, you know, that's the plan. If people want to find this, it says, improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics.

Yeah, he doesn't talk about UFOs. There it is. That's a very tricky way. Relevance to aerospace forensics. People read between the lines and say, ha ha. What do you mean, aerospace? Who's aerospace stuff? So this is the question.

If these encounters happened, if this egg-shaped craft was real, and if these small people-like things that breathe air did communicate with people, where are they from? Is this something that has always been here? Is this something that visits here? Is it something that is here? So in the the bass project of Mr. Bigelow that was funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency, we had a template of things that the Pentagon wanted to have. It said, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation, and so on. Those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft,

or you were looking at the Nimitz thing, whatever it was. But is that really relevant? In science, you don't start from the conclusions. You're going to look at this, this is not something you've seen before, and you go on from that. In the Nimitz case, we've all seen those photographs. I've stopped counting how many papers there are from the New York Times on down with the picture of the photograph that the F-18 pilot took from the thing. Well, nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph. People think it's a photograph.

So in the file, there is a memo from the folks at Raytheon. Raytheon makes the device, shows a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F-18 that's going to take these images. It's an image. It's not a photograph. It's looking into the infrared. It's not looking at the details. You know, there is a number painted on the infrared. It's not looking at the details. There is a number painted

on the thing. It's only to see it. It's looking at the heat. So when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo with a little touch of humor from Raytheon to the Navy saying, you know those things you've published and it was taken with one of the devices what we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft. It's not a camera, it's not a photographic camera. You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build and that's what we gave you. You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down. The F-18 goes behind that Russian thing, a MiG or whatever,

and the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy so that you can distinguish between American Airlines 723 and a MiG. That's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got. You know, is it friend or foe first? If it's friend, you peel off and that's fine. If it's an enemy, you're going to engage the guy.

That's what we gave you. You didn't tell us you wanted a device to track flying saucers because we don't know what flying sources are. If you do, we'll build one. That memo is just so funny. It's an official, I make it a little bit funnier than it was, but it's an official memo and it's very straightforward. Jamie, see if you could find a good photograph, excuse me, an image of the infrared image that was taken by those F-18s. You have an image of a heat source. Yes, of that tic-tac and then they also got the video representation, the video of the thing taking off at some extreme rate of speed.

That's it right there. So that's the image, right? Yeah, well, the radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else. And so we accept that at face value because it's in the New York Times. And that may be true. In my work in venture capital, I've looked at all kinds of technology that's around. So I go to technology meetings. Those are open. They are not secret or anything. And people talk about their gadgets

or their device. They are looking for many to make in larger quantity. So I found myself in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in southern California. And I asked him, there is a device that has a funny name like DISPROR, something like that. It measures, it acquires radar signals. I think it's DSPR, you know, for radar. And that gadget, I had never heard of it, and it's actually not classified. Now it was developed initially so that you could analyze radar data that was coming to you. If somebody was painting your aircraft on the radar, you could detect the characteristics of the radar pulse.

Why would you want to do that? Well, you want to do that because I said, well, what does it look like? Is it classified? He said, no, it's not classified. Many civilian airplanes can carry it. You put it in the nose of your Piper Cub or whatever, and you fly around Los Angeles and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area digitally. It's a digital thing. It's a computer essentially that requires radar data.

And then it feeds back radar characteristics of any aircraft you want somewhere else. So if you want your paper cup to look like a B-52 20 miles away, you turn on, I'm making it simple, but you program the thing and you can redirect the defense, the air defense for example, to another place. So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B-52 there. Yes. Or make it look like you've disappeared in midair and reappeared somewhere else. Ah. Digitally, it's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you, you can, I mean, obviously,

suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shot down by the Soviet Air Force. You'd want to redirect all the radars. I mean, you're on 20 radars. Right. One of the things that they said about the Tic-Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow or another blocking their detection signals? Well, you know, I don't know this DERP from, I don't know how far it's gotten in the last 30 years.

The guy I was talking to was telling me about technology of 30 years ago. Wow. That blew my mind. I didn't know you could do that. Right. I didn't know until just now. You could just paint. So I'm not sure where the technology is and who is cleared for that.

Pilots are cleared for certain things, obviously for all their equipment on board. They are not necessarily cleared for... So you have to ask, in the case of the Nimitz, what clearances did these pilots we see on TV, what clearances did they have? No, did they have the electronic countermeasure clearance? They don't necessarily have it. I mean, some of them didn't have the electronic countermeasure clearance. They don't necessarily have it. Some of them didn't have the camera.

Some of those who are on TV today talking about these images, the image didn't come from them. It came from one of their buddies who came afterwards. There's also the question of where they take place. I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises. They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast, all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time, restricted air space. If you were gonna test equipment.

I think this was in international waters. Yes, yeah it was. But it was still off the coast of San Diego where they do these things, which is why the fighter pilots were there in the first place. But it's not restricted, I mean the Russians could fly there. Right, not that area,

but isn't the area off the East Coast where some of those things restricted? I don't know. Okay. They want around Long Island. Long Island is restricted. It says China's electronic war gadget turned small drones into flying stadium on radar. This is an article from January of this year and then I'll show you something else I found. Wow, so they can make it look like a flying saucer. The size of an iPad can make it look like as big as a sports stadium Look at this the effects similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in mid-air would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction Film but is achievable according to peer-reviewed paper published on January 8th. Well

Also, so then the month before that here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff. He just said that Scatters the freak This is just something I stumbled across typing in the words, yeah, just pretty cool So they got their testing this to what I was getting at was If you're the United States government if you're the military and You have this kind of equipment and you want to test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them? Send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things,

run your whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and come and give them these signals, give them these disruptive, deceptive signals and see whether or not they...the problem is they had visual confirmation of these things. That's the real problem. The problem is they actually saw these things. Like the tic-tac was they visually saw it for people, right? I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been the distinguished army career, and he told me that there were, in fact, tests of especially nuclear facilities, not necessarily the military, but mostly the military facilities, to test the ability to

penetrate the perimeter. So those flights are not cleared with the people who manage the plant. So it's either a nuclear plant that makes fuel for bombs or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns and they are going to sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence. Well suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying saucer. Are they going to start shooting or not? Okay, so they they you know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions and I know another member of a bass team who confirmed that told me he had been on some of those missions. They make their plane look like,

they put lights around it and so that it can look like a flying saucer essentially, or look like what a UFO, what would be a UFO to the guard. So that the guard is, they want to see if they can penetrate, if you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence.

Because if you can fly over the fence, you're in. You can do a lot of damage. fly over the fence. Wow. Because if you can fly over the fence, you're in. Right. You can do a lot of damage. Wow. So pretend you're a UFO. So those are, but I don't think they do hundreds of those. I think they probably do it very carefully at a couple of places. But it's interesting that they have that ability. That's fascinating. That throws a lot of this stuff into question, like

what are we actually seeing? Yes. But it doesn't explain all these things. And that's the problem that I always have is that they just the abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are and then what it must feel like I've never had an experience but what it must feel like to have that experience would that you probably would be very I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known person to talk about silly things but if you're not if you're like a serious person you have some sort of an encounter. I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people. If you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of like respectable person that's a serious

individual in whatever you're doing for a career, you don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that, oh, maybe Mike is losing his mind. You can't because you have people relying on your ability to. So maybe you tell your friends, maybe tell your mother, maybe tell your your wife, but you probably don't tell the press. If you're a scientist I would imagine you would have to have like significant evidence where you stick your neck out or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years, because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy.

Well, you know, I had seen Saint-Charles-Loup, Flying Saucer, when I was 15. Can you describe it? I grew up in a town that's about 45 minutes out of Paris on the road to Normandy. My father was a judge in that town for a while. Beautiful afternoon in the summer. I don't know the exact date. It would have been late June or July, 1955. So I was about 15, 16. I was still in school. And then the following year, I was

going to go to the university. And my mother called me. I was working with my father who was relaxing doing some furniture. And I was helping him. And I heard my mother call from the yard. And I went down and saw an object that was absolutely a saucer. It looked like it was over the steeple of the cathedral there. We were about half a kilometer away from it. It was just suspended. It was silver.

There was a clear dome on top of it. We both saw that. It was very clear. The next day, I asked a friend of mine from school, who was the two good students in physics and so on. And I told him I had seen that and he said he had looked at it with binoculars. He had seen it too. And he had looked at it with binoculars and I got him to draw it and he drew exactly what I had seen, essentially a lens-shaped thing with a dome on the clear dome on top.

How long did you see it for? I saw it for less than a minute. I think I went inside. I don't remember what I did. Logically I probably went inside to get my father so that he could see it. And then when he came out, it was gone? Well, he didn't even come out. He said it was probably one of the new planes that were flying around.

Because this was a time when the meteors and the early jets were being tried and they were training pilots with them and so on, both for civil aviation and for the Air Force in France. So he said, well, let's wait. Maybe this will be disclosed at some point. So I didn't say anything about it. Also the son of a judge, family of a judge isn't supposed to see strange things in the air over the town. So it was sensitive. What year was this? When you were 15? How old are you now?

It was 1955. 1955. So back then... I was 15. 1955. So back then... It was 15, 16. Okay, so we could also apply that like... If it was a jet, it would probably be very loud. Well, and also it wouldn't just stand there. Right, it wouldn't be able to just sit there. And was this thing quiet?

After that, you know, I understood that it was... After that, I worked at Paris Observatory, after I had my degree in astronomy, tracking satellites. We tracked the very early satellites. We were a government office, so people were writing to us with what they had seen. Most of it we could explain. For one thing they were seeing Echo and they were seeing some of the Russian rockets. So we would write back, I mean we had to write back to French citizens. I had a card with a French flag on it and we were serving the

with a French flag on it. We were serving the population. So we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now. You've seen the moon rising from the fog or you've seen satellite so much, Alpha 23. But then there were cases where just like that, where they saw something we could not explain. But then we would tell them that we wouldn't publish it, we wouldn't send it anywhere. For one thing, it wasn't our job. Our job was tracking satellites.

Right, but that one experience that you had when you were 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years. Yeah. Well, if you hadn't been doing, I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and in the conclusions that you draw. Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things, and this is going to happen, and this is coming, and this is, this is, disclosure is imminent, and this, and that's not, it never comes true. It's always, you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have.

And this is the more frustrating aspects of it. Like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high-resolution photographs and video and how about showing me? Show me some stuff. Show me something. Because as a person that I wasn't when I was 15 I didn't see anything. So I don't have that experience that you have. I just have this fascination with it, but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism because there's so much malarkey that's attached to this subject. Well, and some of it is legitimate. And I think ufologists in general, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure, but we

don't know. I'm very respectful of when I had the clearances. I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know what's on the other side of that. There was one case in the Air Force files that was classified, it was marked in the index with a star, and I'm punching the card and I put an asterisk there, and I had to ask Dr. Hynek, you know, what happened? Can you tell me what happened there?

And he said, yeah, I can. There was enough time that I can tell you. This came from a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying saucer, certainly something that should not have been there. It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light. There was definitely a light that looked like it was under power that was flying west. Now, west of Alaska, there's the Coral Peninsula, and

there's the Soviet Union. So she thought it was a UFO. So it was reported as a UFO, but it was classified and it was called unidentified. Well, you know, that was an inside joke. It was a U-2. But this was at sunset and the U-2 was illuminated by the sun. I mean, U2 is painted in such a way that it shouldn't be visible from, but there are some conditions where you're going to see it.

So it was classified and if you had the clearance, you would read that it was unidentified. It would be listed in the statistics as unidentified. But it was actually a YouTube. Exactly what it was from the beginning. Interesting. So some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. I have no problem with that. Right. But tell me, if you ask me to write a computer it's so classified. Yeah, that makes sense. I have no problem with that. Right. But, you know, tell me if you ask me to write a computer program about it, you know, tell me if it's worth my time or not. I mean, what was your take on the Ryan Graves stuff? Like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilots that started seeing these squares within a sphere?

To me that's still a question. The people I talk to gather faint signals, and they have very strange shapes. Those are balloons within balloons with little things attached to them. Going back to the days of 1947, looking for atomic explosions, Russian, that's the way the Russian tests, atomic tests were detected first was with balloons that had large antennas, you know, that were... The thing about the Ryan Graves stuff, though, is the physical characteristics, like, and the way it moves.

These things were able to stay stationary in 100-plus knot winds. I don't... I don't know. You don't know. Yeah. I have not researched it, and I wouldn't be the guy to research it. If we are being visited, how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us? Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the greys, some of them look

like dwarfs? Yes, and that's an question, is it a simulation? And Riesman-Wirk has published a couple of books about that. He's a friend of ours and Dr. Nolan, and we've had many conversations about that. We could be living in a simulation of sorts, where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want. I mean, it would be like a video game.

So all of a sudden, you've got a new. But that's not completely. You can only go so far. In fact, first reaction is, well, you know, but look at the detail. We can't reproduce a detail on that scale. That's true, but, you know, wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it. I mean, with quantum computing and all that. So that's not a good argument. It's an okay argument now, but it doesn't stand the test. The other argument is who would be doing it and why. That's true that there are some strange

things. The fact that the moon is exactly the size to hide the sun. Yeah. It's exactly. Perfectly. You know, 30 minutes of arc. Yeah. Like the sun. So it gives us total eclipses and it gives us a measuring tool.

The Greeks knew roughly how far the sun was with respect to the moon. They knew the ratio of the distances. They didn't get the exact distance, but they already knew that because they had done the math, the geometry. So that's pretty strange. And it also protects our environment by keeping us stable. And there are lots of things on earth that seem to be accidental that are just right for us to exist. So, well, but I'm not completely happy with that explanation.

Nor am I. I'm not happy with it, but it's very compelling. What's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable that if technology advances the way it is currently within maybe even our lifetime, or within another lifetime, another hundred years, we will most certainly have an artificial reality that's you cannot discern indiscernible between that and the reality we currently experience. So that's inevitable. You would kind of assume that perhaps 30 taking place. And if it had already taken place, it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing. Whereas

enough of it seems fake, and enough of it seems scripted, and enough of it seems very coincidental how things line up that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes. Well, but there are also things that are strange, but that we could research that we are doing a very bad job of researching. I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a woman who had been a student at a high-level preparatory school on the East Coast. And I had published a book in the 80s, early 80s, about UFOs, and she was head of the lecture bureau for the kids, and she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying saucers, because it would excite the students and so

on. Right, sure. So I went there and I gave a lecture at the level of, but those were very bright students. It was sort of an elite girls' school. And then she drove me back to the airport and I went home. Never heard from her again. It was 35 years past and she calls me. She says, you may not remember me, but I was the one who brought you to give a lecture at the school. Do you ever come to Washington?"

And I said, I do remember you. And I go to Washington a couple of times a year. And she says, well, I'd like to tell you about an experience I had, and next time you come to Washington, ring me up. And when you're done with your meetings, I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas airport. And so I do that. I call her.

She picks me up in a very nice Mercedes. And she says, I've never forgotten your lecture. She says, I've never forgotten your lecture. I saw something here on the way to the airport where we're passing now that I'd like to describe to you because it reminded me of your lecture and I had never heard that anywhere else. You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides, beautiful. The freeway was dark and the sky was still blue. She said, I saw an elongated object, which was like to me twice 747.

With what people would probably think of as portholes or windows, they were just lights along the thing. The thing was elongated and it was moving slowly, minding its own business. It must be on 10 radars, including the airport. It was moving over and then the sky was perfectly clear, no clouds, no fog. It blended with the sky. I could just see the outline still. It didn't speed up. I could see the lights and I could see the lights, and I could see the lights fading,

and then there was nothing there. And I remember in your lecture in the 80s, you talked about things that could be going into another dimension. But I thought that was interesting, and the kids thought it was an interesting idea. In science, you talk about different dimensions and physics and so on, but I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else and there it was. This thing faded from our universe and I have no idea where it went.

But it didn't speed up. So I said, thank you very much. Can I publish that? It said, no way. I'm the CEO of an international commercial company. We work in several countries and I can't have my name associated with it. Now I've had probably a dozen cases like that with people from Silicon Valley, people you know they they report on Wall Street

about how their company is doing. They don't want a reporter saying are you the same guy who sees flying saucers? You're the CEO of this such and such microchip company in San Jose. So, they don't report it. But they want me or some of my colleagues to know about it because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing. And Dr you know, Dr. Nolan has had that experience as well, as you know.

But it's not going to the Air Force, it's not going to the newspapers, it's not going to the New York Times. Now, if those things can just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else, that rewrites the whole thing. We're not talking about propulsion the way we think about propulsion. We're not talking the passage of time in the same way that I would experience with my watch and so on. We're talking about something that has the rules are different. We need to go up and start thinking along those rules, or at least the possibility of

those rules. It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be. And then all the papers that they published saying there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life closer than 2,000 light years from us and they would take, at the speed of light it would take 2,000 light years from us. And they would take, at the speed of light, it would take 2,000 years to come here. Well, there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us, and it would take them five minutes to get here. So that would explain why we have visitations

throughout history, and they look the same fraud history Because you know our technology I mean this technology of this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago, right? You know, it's a new microphone and there were no microphones You know two hundred years ago. They were no microphones at all. So How come those things look the same? How can we compare them to something somebody saw in the 18th century? That shouldn't happen unless your technology is stuck. Right, right, right. Yeah, that is a fascinating aspect of it? You would expect that if you thought about how fast

our technology evolves, technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 47. It would be just based on how our technology evolves. And you have to think, I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different. I mean there are things that yes, it came from the Wright brothers and so on and there were speculation before on how you could fly, but what an aircraft does today is radically different, the whole physics is different. And we're only talking about a hundred and some years ago, which is pretty crazy. You go from this thing that Wilbur and Orville

were right, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit, to the Chinese jet, which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds, and then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps. All to the harrier that stays. Yes, and then lands like that. Yeah. No, just the technology that we know that we're aware of over the last 200 years is

pretty extraordinary. And if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us. from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us? There are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in the book. Well, one is in the book, the other one isn't. What's in the book is I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments that were done at SRI and now at lots of other places. I got advice from people who said if you put yourself in some types of conditions, you

could try to manifest another form of intelligence, another form of essentially an apparition. It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that, that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe, that the witnesses tell me. So if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself. So I did a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home. I was alone at the time in my home. And nothing happened. And then nothing like what I expected happened. And then I was asleep one night and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body

into another room and there is an entity there, a massive rectangular mass, entity, clearly something that knows where it is and is thinking. I'm terrified, not terrified so much of the entity. It's like a sort of black rectangle. But I'm terrified of being outside my body. I know people do experiments with that and there are people who can do it almost at will. I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back? So I'm terrified. I find myself back in my body. I sit up completely terrified, crying, screaming, which is not usual because it really was horrible. Then I rationalize it.

The experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body. When people describe entities like Whitley Strayberg describes it and so on, there is a very strong psychic impact. But to me that was very shocking. It hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since. I'm not trying to make it happen, but I wanted to flag it and to get advice mostly from other people. Did you feel compelled to try it again?

I would try it again. But you have not yet. No. No. I can understand. It was that terrifying. If you woke up screaming. I want to get counsel from my peers.

That's similar to the monolith in 2001, right? Yeah. Well, there is a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now who invented the integrated circuit. His name is Federico Fagin. He's a physicist from Italy, with a PhD from Italy. He came to Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor, worked with the initial teams in those places.

There was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller places. And he's recognized as the father of one of the two or three people who invented the integrated circuit. So for a long time he was celebrated in that capacity. What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body. Now, this is someone, one of the fathers of Silicon Valley.

I mean, I recognize him as one of my mentors in venture capital, in high technology investment. But now he started to, I mean, he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore, and he's sort of semi-retiring. He doesn't like what's going on right now, and he's probably going to go back to Europe. But there are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times who've achieved something, but you find out that they also had and they experimented with it. In his case, he experimented systematically with the ability to go out of his body and acquire this information from some other source or vision. There isn't much, there are a couple of books that mention steps you can take, but it seems

to be pretty much up to the individual. In my case, I certainly wasn't trying to do that. I was precipitated instantly to the place where this being was. There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about, not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, but I wanted to understand the context of it before I did. And I talk about it in this book. In the late 70s, my wife, my first wife, Janine, was a psychologist.

We bought a place in the country in Northern California, a place in the Redwood forest, because I wanted to re-experience the pleasure of doing astronomy as an amateur, you know, a small telescope and so on. But I don't care. I want to look at the moon. I want to look at planets. I want to look at Magellanic clouds, if I can, or whatever. So, we built this. There was a house there, but I built an observatory in the middle of the forest.

The closest neighbor, this was the Redwood forest, uncluttered and unspoiled. Pretty much inaccessible. If you didn't own the land, you couldn't go cut the trees. So there were some old redwoods there. And the closest neighbor was about 3 quarter of a mile away. And I thought, this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest, and maybe it will attract whatever is out there.

And maybe we'll see UFOs. We never did. We owned the place for 18 years. We'd go there with our kids, and it was wonderful. But we went there not every weekend, but pretty much as much as we could. And then our kids grow up and move away. We move back to the city. We sold the place.

The last night, of course, we had cleaned the place. We were selling it to friends of ours who were our neighbors at a winery. They wanted to expand the land. We had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine, and they wanted the house. The last night, everything has been moved out. My wife is still there because we had a car that was going to be taken back to the city and she had her car and she was ready to go. Middle of the night there's a light that's filling the house. By then there are no curtains, nothing. They're filling their house.

Blue, sort of UV, white, blue, ultraviolet light. She goes outside and the light is making everything clear, the forest, everything else. It's moving. It doesn't have a specific shape, you know, it's like a mass of light with light all around it. It's going down the driveway, which is a dirt road, to the main road, to the small road. And it's just moving along politely in front of the ranch and down to the street. It has no business being there. No sound, it's not a car, it's not a car on fire. The light, again, everything is the all the details are there you can see

the grass you can see the leaves on the trees and why that maybe you called for it and it took a long time to get there well yeah all they just wanted to say goodbye yeah maybe maybe they were there the whole time they just didn't want to show themselves they were let's put on. Maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves. So let's put on a show for Jacques. There was one time we used to sleep in the observatory. There was a small bedroom there with old books that I had collected.

And she woke up and she saw a light that was like what people describe, small light. She didn't see where it came from or where it went. But it was moving along the walls, there were two of them, and then it vanished. She woke me up, but I had not seen it. It was gone by the time I woke up. I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch. There's a few people wanted to talk to us, but then once we brought the cameras out, only one guy wanted to talk to us. And he was very rational, very normal guy who

lived in a modest home and he told the story about this ball of light that entered through his home. And it seemed to be somehow or another aware that he was there. He felt like it was, if not a living thing, controlled by something that was alive. And then it went through the walls and disappeared again. He said it was in his home for a few minutes? Moving around? Well, as you know, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on. So very, very interesting. Well, it's such a fascinating subject.

And like I said, I really appreciate all your years of research and the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis. It really helps people like myself get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on. Well, what's important is to have guidelines for research. I look to some of the people you have here, then some other exploring, and I try to learn from them

and sort of refine my own criteria. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. And your book, again, the one that's available now, this is Forbidden Science 6. This is the sixth of these books. Scattered Castles is a, it's not classified, but it comes from the classified world. It's a repository of classified projects. So if you're cleared at a certain level, you want to know what else is there that you would

have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to. You could look up the names of those projects. It wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it, but it would tell you that there is a project. Those names of secret projects are picked by a computer, they're random. And I thought this was funny. You know, Scattered Castles is sort of like, you know, all these files about strange UFOs and strange creatures.

Well, I can't wait to read it. Thank you so much. Thank you for everything. It was great having dinner with you and Hal put off and everybody else last night as well. So I really appreciate you very much. Thank you. Bye everybody.