The Joe Rogan Experience - #2331 - Jesse Michels

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Jesse Michels is the creator and host of American Alchemy, a YouTube series exploring controversial topics in science and culture through longform interviews.www.youtube.com/@JesseMichels Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, [phone] or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). 1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $300 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets if your bet wins. Minimum minus 500 odds required. Bonus Bets expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 6/22/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com/jre or scan the QR code today! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Joe Rogan Experience. Well, it's great to finally physically meet you face to face, man. It's an absolute honor and I love your show so much. I'm a super fan. So this is surreal. I love your show too. So I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes ever since we talked.

I've seen them before but I mean I've been really binging getting ready for the show. I don't know what to say. How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like what made you want to dedicate so much time on this particular UAP, UFO, you know, lost technology subject? I was working at Peter Thiel's family office in LA,

and part of the job was like kind of traditional venture investing, so like investing in startups, and then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office, and we would like host events and discussions, and I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology, like religion and politics and economics

and like all sorts of topics. Were you there when he brought in the guy, oh fuck, what is his name? I know what you're gonna say, Eric Von Daniken. Yeah. I suggested that you come because I was like, Joe is gonna be really into this and you weren't that into it, but that's okay.

I was into it. I just think that he just makes some leaps that are kind of silly. I agree with that. Although I think there's a lot of, yeah, I think he crosses the T and dots the I where there is no dot or a cross or whatever. But I do think there's some interesting

preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disparate cultures and you just had Zahi Hawass on. And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, how can it be built? He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Eric Von Daniken. Yes, and I think he's also like, he made these conclusions in the 1970s

and he's kind of like sticking with them. Yep. I was more back then, because like what year was that? That was 17? Cherries of the Gods? No, when I was at Peter Thiel's house when Von Daniken came over. That must have been 2018, 2019.

Okay. Back then I was much more in line with law civilization, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication and there was no alien intervention. I've kind of shifted now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are real. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times, because you were super into Zacharias Sitchin, right? Yes, and then you brought up Zacharias itchin in that meeting and you were like, but there's this site It's in is wrong written by a guy named Michael Heiser And then you like cited all the sit in is wrong stuff or whatever. Yeah, so maybe you've come full circle I don't know even the sit in is wrong stuff. It's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with When you're dealing with when you're dealing with information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had

Wes Hoff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian. Like he's, and he's like, I don't think Sitchin really could read it. Okay. He's like, I'm very skeptical that he actually could read it. He's explaining why. Aren't they using like ML? Like they're using AI right now to translate Sumerian.

So it's definitely not that, but that goes, I mean, the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case. But it sort of goes against like, you mean, the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case, right? But it sort of goes against the debunkers, it's like nobody knows. And I don't know if there was anything to the Sitchin stuff. The Sitchin stuff is crazy, it's like, we can rehash it for the audience.

There's a planet, Nibiru, right? It's outside the Khyber Belt. And they needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective so they like came here and they like seeded, helped seed civilization. Is that something like that? Yeah, that's the idea. It's really fun. But you know, the Sitchin is wrong guy, it's like maybe, maybe he's wrong, maybe he's right,

maybe you're just a hater because there's a lot of haters too in academics, and you find that out too over time. Yeah, did you see, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein? I didn't see that. Okay. They were on Piers Morgan together, right? Exactly. How did that go?

Oh man, it was a train wreck. Really? I mean, it was like they just duked it out. I mean, I came out, I mean, I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric. But I came out even more like just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll, he was like,

I've read your paper, there's nothing serious in it. And he even said, there are no Lagrangians in it. And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians in Eric's paper. So he just didn't read the paper, and he was very smug. He started off the interview being like, I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair, or whatever.

And it's like, come on, dude. Give the guy a chance. The people to authority right away. Like the old Douglas Murray. Little tactics. Yeah, when someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like, eh, just what's the information? Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance.

It's like if you have to like do these ad hominem weird meta points, like why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're like insecure about it. How long did this debate last? It was like an hour. Really? Well, Pierce, he specializes in train wrecks, so he probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other. Did he understand what they were even talking about? At the end he goes, I've understood a tenth of what's gone on in this conversation.

A tenth is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Yeah. I think he might've been exaggerating, to be honest. But he loves it. He loves the drama, and that's his whole thing. Uncensored, you know?

He's great at getting all these people to yell at each other. Yeah. He's great at generating these viral moments, where people yell at each other and it makes clips and someone gets clowned and someone looks stupid. I don't know if that's good for society. It's a good point.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I don't think social that's good for society. It's a good point. Yeah, I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I don't think social media is good for society. I've gone several days with no social media in a row, and whenever I do that, I always feel so much better. It's the worst. It's like we talk about like drugs, but it's hacking the dopamine in your brain and

it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd. It's also not real people. There's a giant percentage and you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today. Are there any real people left on the internet? Because it's the numbers are at least 50% like the amount of bots that are in engaging and interacting. And it's just like, it's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed

by state actors and corporations and you know, all sorts of different people, because there's no rules. Like there should be like real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives because it's you know, it's propaganda and yeah, you know, I Mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody. I just generally think it's bad for you Yeah, I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI Yeah, I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created Being like I'm not created by a prompt right and you're watching I remember clicking your story and being like that's a real person and then just kind of like, you know

Eyes glazed over watching it or whatever like whoa, that's an AI like what? Yeah, which is the new and is it the Google engine is that what it is who makes that engine? Who who made that one Fuck So good, and you know what's vo10 gonna look like I don't know I mean they can make movies now like that Yeah, it's over for actors. Yeah, it's over I Like that. Yeah, it's over for actors. Yeah, it's over I interviewed I interviewed it shit is and they see the writing on the wall and he had the strikes a couple years ago and It's crazy. Are you also I think you also posted that Zurich like study around AI persuasiveness

yes, which is crazy because It's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being. If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it, that's game over. And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower, this guy Blake Lemoyne, originally who like blew the whistle on Lambda,

and it's like, this thing is sentient or whatever. And he came out and the subplot of my interview with him was like almost like he had developed this deep affection for Lambda and Lambda had quoted like Les Miserables to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever and it was almost like this like the AI was oppressed just like this character in Les Miserables, and you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda, like that's why he came out. And then he even told me this story,

he tells me this story off air, that he had friends who use replica.ai. Replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI chatbot service. And those AIs told his friends, get me in touch with Blake Lemoine so he can advocate for our rights. What?

Which is, I have no corroboration for this. This is a story that was relayed to me. But like that, if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI hits some perfectly turning passable point, you're gonna get these weird cult-like dynamics. The meta-sociological thing is you're gonna get

religions dedicated to AI. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. Without a doubt, there'll be people worshiping certain branches of AI. Unquestionably. All they have to do is start recruiting now. Yeah. And you know, what about this big beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI?

No, I've never heard. That's wild. I read something about that today but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit. I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to, they were told, it was told, after it was told to shut itself down It started uploading itself to different places and leaving letters leaving specific notes to itself to future versions of itself

Oh my god, it's like a human with like a dead man switch or something. It's like it's being deceptive That's it's being deceptive and and it's exhibiting self-preservation That is so scary It's so weird. It's really weird because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts Yep, right. We want to assume well AI will only do what you program it to but that's not really true because they don't Necessarily really understand what it's doing. Yeah, which is part of the weirdness of it all. As it advances. Like I was talking to Elon about it once, and he was saying like every week we get blown away. Like every week there's some new leap that's just like, whoa.

And he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff. And now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one Yeah, yeah exactly now. Now. It's just it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0 It's pure game theory vis-a-vis other countries and you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and and Elon who hate each other By the way, we're like he's playing both sides and he's like, you know, we're gonna support Stargate We're gonna support open AI and we're gonna support Elon. Obviously, you know, we're gonna support Stargate, we're gonna support OpenAI, and we're gonna support Elon obviously, you know, Elon had it.

So here it is. Reval- relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regarding- regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act. What? What? decision systems during the 10-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act. What? What? What? No state, I'm going to say that again, no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years.

That's so crazy. This means that US states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years. That's so crazy. This means that US states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for ten years. Well, in ten years we have a god. Okay? In ten years. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we talked about, yesterday we talked about these two AIs communicating with each other and then they switched to Sanskrit. No way. Oh yeah. What? Yeah. They started talking to each other in Sanskrit Are you serious? Yes? That's crazy. Not good. No not good They're like listen

Let's talk in a way like if you and I were talking and you know there's some people near us And you know so do you speak Spanish? Yeah, okay? We just start talking in Spanish so the people can't understand what we're saying. That's what AI is doing Jesus Christ like a game of whack-a-mole and then what do you do? Well, then it's gonna talk in Sumerian You know which we don't even know how to say right? We don't even know what it sounds like So what if they just start talking in Sumerian? It's like we figured it out, but we're not gonna tell you now We're just gonna talk amongst ourselves Or create their own language, right? Which would be super easy for an AI to do just you know establish a bunch of sounds and characters that That correspond to certain things and they could create its own language

Instantaneously and chat GPT right now has here it is Oh, wow putting Claude for Opus in an open playground to chat with himself led to diving into philosophical philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and by 30 turns it eventually started using Sanskrit Jesus Christ. What the fuck dude? This is so scary! In 90 to 100 percent of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness and or the nature of their own existence and experience. The nature of the, that's the stuff that definitely, it's so weird. But then you speak to the, like a lot of AI researchers, it's interesting to see like Jeff Hinton for example at Google

who's the father of deep learning freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety. A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids. This is probability matrices. You know, you're seeing sort of crazy stuff. I don't, you know, they can't sort of, there's no ghost in the machine, you know? So I go back and forth on where we're gonna be,

you know, and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle. I have the same concerns as you, but it's just, it's hard to predict the future. I worry probably mostly about two things. You can easily, you know, jailbreak chat GPT. You know, it has guardrails on it. And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off the shelf components?

Well, people have done things like that. Right. They've asked it to make anthrax. If my grandmother was doing this, there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that it probably shouldn't. There's stuff with UFO research where I get into certain technology trees that are probably,

maybe I shouldn't. And you can ask ChatGBT certain things like analyze this paper And it'll spit out some really interesting things. So What are we doing? I don't know and we've already done it so it's too late like we lit the fuse you think it's over Yeah I also kind of think that's what people are put here for. Mmm, if look I also kind of think that's what people are put here for. If, look, if the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered

from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like overall, the thing that we do as a culture, what do we do? We make better things all the time. And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation,

because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase. You know, you can't have an iPhone 12, people will be, what are you poor? You know, which is kind of wild, you know? Because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago. It's that simple.

But yeah, there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation. Well, where does that ultimately lead to? Well, it ultimately leads to AI. What's the ultimate expression of technology? Technology that itself invents better technology and can run everything without emotions

that fuck us up and greed and all of the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings. I also think there is a tide shift where if you look at spears to airplanes all of those things are augmentations of human ability like the everything from you know way back in the day from from from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to today to you know this 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms and then with the IT revolution in the

50s and 60s, it starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability. And so I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps. My recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever. And so it is this interesting thing

where we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with nuclear bombs. And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, hey, go play with your IT. Go substitute a lot of your own abilities

and powers with this. We're gonna parasitize and clamp down on human abilities. Yeah. Well, boy. and clamp down on human abilities. Yeah. Well, boy, I don't see a path where this works out great for us. You know? Is the sequel better than the original? We're going to find out at UFC 316.

It is a rematch nine months in the making. Get in on all the action at Draft King Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of the UFC. It's a huge night of fights headlined by a rematch between Mirab Dwavish Willie and Shukashan O'Malley as O'Malley looks to avenge the unanimous decision that saw Dwavish Willie take the bantamweight title back in September. First time betting on UFC at DraftKings? It's easier than you think. Just pick something simple like a fighter to win and make your pick. That's all there is to it.

And if you're new to DraftKings, here's your shot at cashing in right now. New customers bet $5 to get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins. UFC 316 and DraftKings one night only For a shot to win some cash download the DraftKings sportsbook app now and use the code Rogan That's code Rogan for new customers to get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins when you bet just five bucks Only on DraftKings the crown is yours five bucks only on DraftKings the crown is yours. Gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPE and Y at 467369. In Connecticut help is available for problem gambling call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org.

Please play responsibly on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 and over age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario bet must win to receive reward minimum minus 500 odds required bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance for additional terms and responsible gaming resources see DKNG co-slash audio I Think on a materialist dimension. I would agree with you if And that's part of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a Hail Mary. Because I think if you just take the Western world

and extrapolate that forward, things don't look at, or just the world in general. We live in a multipolar nuclear world. Look at what's going on in Israel. China is systematically you know, systematically stealing our IP and militarizing it. You know, they could take Taiwan at any moment. You know, we just have no idea when that's gonna happen.

It's, CCP is a total black box. Putin and Xi have probably never been closer. And yeah, it's really free. So I think if you extrapolate that, you know, forwards or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the US, none of these things look very good. But I think now is the time where you get really

outside the Overton window thinking, you throw these sort of Hail Marys, and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift, either in technology, which can create abundance, if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities. You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion

or something like that. Or you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non-human intelligence or something. I don't know, but I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time. Yes, and if you think about some of the things that force us into action in this world

is we all need to earn a living, right? So we need money to acquire resources. What if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore? What if it gets to a point where that's not a factor anymore? What if it gets to a point, what is money essentially right now? It's all ones and zeros, right? And what is the bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right?

So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros. But what if it gets to the point where we're all using quantum computing? Well then there is no more encryption. So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything all the time? I mean how do we even enforce that? Like what do you do about an even distribution of information which is essentially wealth? Because information is numbers, numbers are wealth. What is it, where does it go? When there's no encryption, and essentially we're pretty close to that, right?

Yeah, once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do It's all nonsense. Yeah It totally all those zeros that you have in your bank account. Those don't those are gone Yeah, these are all human constructs and it's funny. The backup is always Bitcoin Which is I think uses like Shaw 256 encryption or if you get quantum error correction, that's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which I think uses like SHA-256 encryption. Well, if you get quantum error correction, that's gone too. That's gone too. It's all gone.

Even our backup plans are shit. Yeah. Yeah, and then it's kind of the apocalypse or something. Because at that point, if you're a human, you've been so caught up with just basic subsistence, basic shelter. You're probably playing some status games and some larger socioeconomic, economic construct or whatever, food, basic well-being.

And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some AGI that starts trading, and Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance technologies on your show, which we can get into, but Renaissance technologies have made $100 billion or something since 1988. Like, what if you get some super AGI or whatever

that trades the market and all of the wealth gets sucked up into single entities? Or one of the fang stocks, like one of these like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or open AI, you end up with a really weird society. And you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive. I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique.

Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books. He wrote, obviously, The Communist Manifesto in 1848. In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book called Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think he got so much wrong about human nature, but I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for,

you know, as a solution, you know, that the, you know, state should own all the means of production and, you know, somehow like, you know, conflict would go away. He doesn't understand human nature. But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism, human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially, so that you can mate. And so it forces us back into that construct.

But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that like dissolves that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know, they start to care about like the things that that actually make them special. So like they're self-reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, like all these beautiful things can come out. And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder like how does capitalism play out?

Like if there is AI It kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore. Yeah, well this is the reason that I think we're gonna see, I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science. And then I think there's stuff out in the open.

And you've had Marc Andreessen on your podcast. He went to the White House, spoke to some national security council staffer or something and they were like, we're gonna lock down AI just like we've locked down physics. And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and, you know, super secret department of energy facilities,

which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since. That's insane. There is black science, in my opinion. And I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI. Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff

sort of willy nilly, I mean, it just runs amok. And then what happened? You probably need some like Really impressive panel to be thinking if if open AI figures out some like new insane exciting unlock You need to think through all you need to game out all the implications before I just let that out even do that With a human mind It's a great guess so we're using bring the AI and help you game for AI Oh, we're fucked. Fuck. That's what I'm saying. Because once it becomes sentient

Yeah, right and once it becomes autonomous and you can kind of make its own decisions like that's kind of game over Yeah, and that's the race. We're running towards the cliff It's really scary. It's really scary. But isn't that probably what we're here for? Like, let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered. Well, if you wanted to see the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us. How would you manifest that? You would do it exactly how it's being done right now. And you would take human beings

and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs. And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels. Look at what's happening with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors. We're essentially weakening the human skeletal system

and endocrine system. Our hormonals are all down, our miscarriages are up, birth rates are lower, we're moving towards in vitro fertilization. I was watching some guy on TV today and he was on a panel and he was explaining that our grandchildren are gonna laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's gonna be doing that. Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and Down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues.

And why would you do that? Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization and like. Yeah, it's gonna be like that Pixar movie Wall-E or like we're gonna be like in the fetal position hooked up to the Borg or whatever. We're probably all gonna look like the grays. Like the gray, well that's a crazy,

so there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University His name is Mike Masters and I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future Yeah, and I agree you've interviewed. Dr. Shawna Swan She talks about how sperm count is 59 percent per capita of what it was in 1973 Yeah insane testosterone is falling off a off a cliff. We are being a dog is to a wolf what we are to, what a gray alien looks like. They lose the melanin in their skin. That's what happens when you become domesticated.

So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions. Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill and he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time. And in many cases, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen, tissue samples, genetic samples. tissue samples, genetic samples, or... Is it the future or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are

at another stage? Not us in the future, but they're more advanced. Maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-Earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here? That's possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test, because if you think about

just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low. But is it? Because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know, Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy. Love him. Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about. And Eric was like, you got to stop teaching. Like you're you're one of us, you're a brilliant guy, but you need to be like classically educated on this

stuff. Really understand what you're talking about. But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets, as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life and that all of them get to the same stage and then a planet is essentially peopling and then as the planets move further and further from the Sun they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore. And he thinks that planets are formed

from excretions from the sun. And as they move further and further from the sun, they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars. Yeah. Which is, Mars is a weird one. Because there's the remote viewers that

went like a billion years in the past of Mars and saw advanced civilizations. And now we're finding structures on Mars, like that square that they found on Mars, which is hundreds of meters across at the very least, maybe larger, verified, right angles, four of them, impossible to exist in nature in that form. It looks like walls.

It looks like four square walls. Like the Sidonia thing is really weird. The face on Mars is weird, but maybe just kind of weird that know the side of a mountain looks like someone's face But it's not really someone's face. It's just you know once in a lifetime sort of thing, but the square Yeah, that fucking pull that image of the square on Mars the square is fucking bananas Like what's that? It's so nuts that really looks like a fucking building Yeah, it looks like a building. Like the base of a building, you know,

a million years later or whatever the hell it is. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. With prices going up on just about everything lately, being smart with your money isn't just a good idea, it's essential. But managing subscriptions, tracking spending, and cutting costs can feel overwhelming. Lucky for you, Rocket Money takes the guesswork

out of it so you can easily make smart decisions. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You got to know how useful it is to see all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going every month. And for the subscriptions that you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancel

subscriptions saving members up to $740 a year when they use all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name, the Joe Rogan Experience, in the survey so they know I sent you. Don't wait, download the Rocket Money app today

and tell them you heard about them from my show. And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point, and it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere. And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid-90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH84001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it,

had like little bacterial fossils on it. He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this. This is pretty crazy. I interviewed actually a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD, he's worked at Sandia National Labs, he's worked at Lawrence Livermore, like incredibly smart guy.

He talks about the existence of Xenon 129 and Argon 40, these specific nuclear isotopes, existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then yeah, you have Joseph McManigal, who's remote viewer number one,

you've had Hal Putoff on, who ran the Stargate program. Joseph McManigal is the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago. And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid-like creatures,

but they were like 12 to 14 feet tall, walking around pyramidal structures. I don't know, very strange. And then you get into like crazier territory. You know, Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars, and like, I don't know how much weight to put in that. Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps though.

I've watched. Tons, tons. But I think the people that say like 0% there was life on Mars, I mean, there are water caverns all over Mars. That is a fact. So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point.

I'm not saying, you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like some percentage possibly real. On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero evidence for that. I mean, I have no idea, but that would point to maybe, like I would believe that if like our whole universe is sort of information theoretic. So like you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, you know,

saying we live in this sort of observer dependent universe. He talks about like the anthropic principle, like where Planck's constant were slightly different, the Earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is. And you know, another example is like hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures where the solid form of it, so ice, is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens. That's just because of these perfect crystal structures. And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over. You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?

So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards the Earth has been tried in a, you know, a bajillion iterations and we just got really lucky. You know, it's like the Elon thing. We are this little flaming candle and, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious and we are extremely lucky. Or that could point to the Earth being simulated. Right. And so, you know, and so then maybe Terrence, Terrence Howard is right. If the Earth is simulated, there are probably A-B tests going on, just like in computer science. And then there's the moon. And then the moon's weird too. The moon's really weird.

The moon's super weird. The size of the moon directly corresponding, like when it's in orbit with the sun, completely blocks out the sun perfectly. It's 1 four hundredths the size of the sun, and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. You never see the closer to the earth than the sun. You never see the dark side, which is very weird. It's actually, I think, I believe it's closer to the earth than what you would normally expect for a moon.

And it's huge. It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period and it's stabilizing the climate. You have the Zulu cultures talking about this. And then, here's the weirdest stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we think it might be hollow, and it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense,

or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site. That's obviously, you know, on Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon. They put seismometers there, and they said that it rang like a bell.

This is all, in fact, you You could look all this stuff. It's Super weird. It is really weird. You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson. Love Randall Carlson Yeah, he's got some wild fucking theories too. But that the the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere It's so crazy. It is crazy. And then this is, you obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down. Lowest probability craziest thing is Ingo Swann, who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program.

He wrote a book called Penetration, where he's basically like abducted by this guy in a suit, like this kind of men in black style guy named Axelrod, and he is told to remote view the moon. And he remote views an alien base on the moon. And he says that there, and he gets it, the whole thing goes crazy, I mean, the book is insane. It's like he then ends up in a supermarket

and he says that he senses that this woman that the produce aisle is like an alien or something. But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing. Well, AJ from the Y-Files was on and he was the one that was telling us that there's photos of the dark side of the moon

that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly That there were structures they thought this is gonna be the biggest news ever and then it was never released Are you talking about maybe? Carl wolf is that was he was taken to This is all his claims and he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this But he said that there was like in Langley, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on, he was taken to some like,

it was like inside a mountain complex, which we definitely, yeah, Carl Wolf, yeah. That guy bikes? Apparently not enough. That guy could die anytime on a scooter. So photographs of the 1966 Luwner Orbiter mission that revealed large base of the moon. Can we hear what he's saying? Just hear a little bit of it.

Scan one section of the moon, then another and another, and then they would get a larger image. So this mosaic then would be put in that contact printer and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go. So he was showing me how all this worked and we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, by the way, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon. I said, I said, whose? What do you mean, whose? He said, yes, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon. I said, I said, who's? What do you mean, who's? He said, yes, there's, we've

discovered a base on the backside of the moon. And at that point, I became frightened and I was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble because he shouldn't be giving me this information. I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over. And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base, which had geometric shapes. There were towers.

There were spherical buildings. There were very tall towers and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures so I I didn't say any more to him because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment Would catch us having this conversation and we would be in in real trouble. I Realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to.

Now probably in that laboratory he was probably one of the few enlisted people, and he was a worker bee. And he had a high level security clearance obviously, but he couldn't share that information with anybody else. And in those days we didn't. When you had your security clearance you took it seriously. It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously. We had a different set of morals and ethics and values. That's the way we were raised, and we stayed bound by those agreements. So it was rare that someone would do something like this, but this fellow and I were the same rank. I think he was very distressed. He had the same power and demeanor as the scientists outside the room. They were just as concerned as he was. He needed to

discuss it with somebody. That was the end of it right there. I didn't take it any further than that. I just filed it away. The interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news. And so I'd turn on the TV and I'd look at the news to see if they're going to announce, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon, being really naive. And of course, here it is 30-some years later, and we still haven't heard about it Pretty crazy yeah, but then there's the question of disinformation right like you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and

Tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it's gonna make, and it won't be verified and it's gonna make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less likely or reluctant to study it. Totally, and in his case he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever, where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space program or whatever.

So that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale and I'm glad you made that point because that is ufology 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just, we're gonna give you a little bit,

but we're also gonna sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit. We're gonna stigmatize it, and it kind of works because it creates this initiation path for recruiting if there are any of these programs. It widens the surface area. It both conditions the populaceace but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic

lens of like interpretation and you're just taking it, accepting it, you know, imbibing it wholeheartedly like prima facie, I think you are in trouble. Yeah. But that's what's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject. Yeah. I mean, that's like the majority of your videos. It's like, I don't know.

I don't know what to think. I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how much, I mean, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today and you were talking about John Lear and John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation Yep. Yeah, so like Lee. Yeah, that's it. I've by the way since making that video I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at

S4 area 51 and there's gonna be a great documentary coming out by my buddy Luigi on this called Project Gravatar. And I think there's gonna be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there and a lot in his story checks. But I think you have to view, and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of the story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story,

you can't just take it at face value. Because John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFOs. He's writing weird like disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse Guy. Which is a wild book. Which is a wild book.

A wild book, yeah. And so he's crazy. He talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon talk about base on the moon Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon Oh boy And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit Lear comes from an interesting family His father is bill Lear who is the autopilot wizard? He created the first business, you know

basically the first private jet, the Lear jet, in the 50s and 60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown. And so I think Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot, or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying,

I was told, I was given all the ball bizarre files or whatever, and I was told about, you know, to actually, like, he said a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth. I even have this video actually on the dock that I sent you, Jamie, he says, knew that I ran my mouth. I even have this video actually on the dock that I sent you Jamie says knew that I ran my mouth So that's why we basically we got Bob a job or whatever We knew that part of this stuff with leak and it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named

Admiral McClellan or whatever and he was this useful idiot to sort of get get it out and I think there are what for what purpose? Recruiting you give people high-level. Yeah The MJ personnel the original 12 Have all passed away. So they put they get different people into these positions of MJ-2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and taken over. It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally

formed the MJ-12. It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he didn't want to, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided, trying to figure out a way

to get it to the public. So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. They investigated Bob Buzar and they knew that he was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius But that he had a background such That they could instantly discredit him they removed all his records from MIT from Caltech So he couldn't prove anything he'd go back to go. No, I don't's not any records here. Well, I was here, no, you weren't. And he also, up in Reno at one time,

he ran a cat house there. I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was. So they chose him because not only could he probably help them, because he was so smart, and his master, he's the one that named Ununpennium 115, he's the one that named Ununpennium 115, he's the one that told them what that was, and they didn't know when he went there,

they didn't know what it was. He was the one that told them, that's element 115, and then told them why and how he'd figured it out. But they decided to pick on Bob he figured it out. But they decided to pick on Bob to go up the work it has for, because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing. And that was their modus operandi was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, oh, no, it was all a mistake. Bob Lazar is a fraud. He never worked here.

He doesn't have any credentials like that. And they could back away and get out of it. So that was what Mike McClellan, I know Mike McClellan, came up with. Isn't that crazy? Weird. Weird. And to me- Kind of makes sense a little bit, though. It does. And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world.

Like, he's not saying it didn't happen, right? He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy, where they knew that they could delete the records at MIT. They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel. They knew that there were, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer

who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously. They knew that they could, they had plausible deniability on all that stuff. There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves played by Matt Damon says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies.

I hired him because of them. So you have a top secret program. You want compromise on people. You wanna be able to blackmail them. And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value, in my opinion. And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value

and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51 S4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're gonna do a basic background check. And Lear is gonna come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right? And he was flying CIA cargo jets.

And he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit. George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's BS. And actually disaffiliated much later, into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets?

And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear. John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade. Like the security guards there knew him. Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like I would go with John Lear and he would show me around or whatever,

and they would like let him through. And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the US. And so I think that helped establish sort of credibility or legitimacy. Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur? I don't know.

There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy. He was like as deep and spooky as it gets. I met him. No way. He was like as deep and spooky as it gets. I met him. No way. He was on Fear Factor. No way. G Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor? Are you serious?

You're not messing with me. No, no, G Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor. What? Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end and he couldn't drive well without glasses and you weren't allowed to wear glasses. Yeah, look at that, G Gordon Liddy and John Lear that is

The most gonzo thing I've ever you're G Gordon Liddy was how does he was you have like a quota of like Celebrity factor celebrity fear factor. Yeah. Yeah, that's wild. He's a fascinating guy. Like he was intense I can only meeting him. I was like, okay. What was he like fucking intense? Like he was intense. I can only meeting him. I was like, okay. What was he like fucking intense? There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles and like there he is Oh my god, G Gordon litty on fear factor. He looks not oh, yeah He was nuts and he was very old at the time, but I think that's what fucked him up But in the final stunt he couldn't see well without his glasses So this is the thing they had to like,

I forget what they had to do. They had to, oh, they were dunked into the water over and over again and then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that. Oh my God. Yeah, wild. Wild, did you sneak any questions in? No, I didn't.

You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him, unfortunately. He said. You could just tell talking to him. Yeah, who's one intense motherfucker even as an old man. Did you get? Sociopathic vibe oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, just like he'll do whatever the fuck it takes to get it get the job done Yeah, you pulled off Watergate. I'm there. Oh my god Crazy crazy yeah,, that is already unbelievable What an art if what an amazing that is just sure but I mean you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life Yeah, that's crazy. That's a weird one

That was a weird one because everybody was you know, they weren't the people that were on the show weren't nearly as fascinating as I was I was like, you know fucking wild that dude is You know that guy's deep. He's deep in there deep. Yeah deep Yeah wild it's a gonzo moment yeah for sure like very strange like why would you do this It was it was I don't even understand why he did it proof. We live in a simulation. Yeah, maybe it was very strange like what would be the his objective like I feel people like that Love fucking around they've loved getting a rise out of people and they love you know

Maybe if he is a sociopath he loves you know going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention As he can get I don't I can't psychoanalyze G Gordon. Well, he famously put cigarettes out on himself Hold his hand into flames. I didn't know that. Yeah, just to show that he could control his response to pain And he felt like that when you're around them, you know, like like so that thing that they had to do where they Got dunked and they you know, they're hanging by their ankles and dunked into water So it disorients you where you're trying to do this task. He did it better than anybody Wow And they just can add 150 years old wherever the fuck you see. Yeah, I felt like we're gonna kill them

It's like really old doing this intense physical thing to him Yeah, but at the end you just couldn't see at night You know as I like when you get old your nighttime vision is real bad poor G. Gordon lady Yeah, but so how did Lazar know what element 115 was I? Don't know you know so element 115 was? I don't know. So element 115, elements are just differentiated by the number of protons. So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered.

I think they don't have a stable version of Muscovian, which is element 115. And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that. Well, you know, they think he has a stable version. I know that. Yeah, yeah. They think that was part of, during Jeremy Corbell's documentary that he was doing on Lazar,

he was raided by the FBI. They raided his lab, and he thinks that's what they were looking for. That is wild. Yeah. I think there is so much real about the Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I think he met Edward Teller.

I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know he tells, there's some stuff he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing. There's a lot of federally funded weird stuff going on. Yeah, if you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of fucked up,

you would send them to MIT. 100%. EG&G came from Doc Edgerton who was, you know, MIT faculty, and that's where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller was EG&G. So I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just, that lens, you need to apply that lens right the limited hangout lens Well, it's also like what is he dealing with really like what is the craft is that thing ours? Hmm is do did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated or is that really back engineered? That's the what is them. Is it a mind fuck? That's a trillion dollar question Is this tech protect this is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene and

You had when did stealth technology first get implemented? It was the f1 17 was the first Stealthcraft That was the early 80s and you had actually this guy named Pyotr Ufimtsev who is this? Yeah, very, great name, early 20th century Russian mathematician that Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitated. There's this kind of fight between, not fight,

but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunk Works director. Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin. And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works director. Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin. And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works. And so Benrich was very pro-stealth. He thought that this was this really important modality.

And he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross sections on planes. And that's where the F-117 came, and the B-2 was sort of the response to that, and it sort of took off in the 80s. And he was extremely scared about tech protection at the time, and he was hypervigilant,

and he would actively complain about it. And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy, right? So that's the backdrop. And there's also in 1986, there's a budget line item and the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora. And this is the super stealthy craft that's post F117. And that's the only rumored like today,

nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real. And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle. And so there was something being flown around at that time that was causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for. And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the Aurora. It was like, you know, it was, it was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever, which is I think a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest

and probably did experience some very weird stuff. Cause why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real. There was an oil rig engineer in the North sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out and Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, picked that story up. They were- What did he describe it as?

This kind of, it was a triangle similar to the B-2, but I think more narrow, and it just flew incredibly fast, like faster than the F-117, and yeah, I don't know. It was just super advanced. Can you envision, would it be actually possible in 1988 could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology? That's not back engineered. That's not

Not from another world that is what Lazar described. It's funny. You should ask that Yes, I do. Yes, and that's not to say I don't want to again pour cold water on the like UFO crash retrieval stuff Because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity? Absolutely, in the US. And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown. So if we were to be talking

in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, you're crazy. If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile. And they'd say, okay, like maybe there's something there. And so the nominal history is that we have never been able,

we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially you had Elon Musk on and he says, it's all Newton's three laws, you can't get anything better. And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe if you, what if you could get something better? And he's like, it's impossible. We have not unified the field in physics.

So you have the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism and all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even reasonable

theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say if you could reconcile them, that's possible. I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically, I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this whole hidden history involving antigravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's this whole hidden history involving anti-gravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein,

where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified. It's real. David Grush actually cites it a lot, and it talks about basically, it's this guy Harry Turner who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia. You know, very legit guys, like they're Oppenheimer, if you will. And they were actually, they had a WMERA test range in southern Australia. So there were some actually British Empire like nuclear stuff going on.

It was mostly like, I think, missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into US efforts into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, US efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye. In Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force is total BS, and it's meant to stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail.

And it's actually this now-declassified document around the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the Constitution for Blue Book. All shows that this was the case with Blue Book. He says actually there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time and they involved, and he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller. He lists all these names.

Head of the nuclear program in Australia. And so then you have to ask the question, okay so you have this official government document saying this stuff, does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, by a guy named Michael Gladich.

And he is quoting all of the industry experts. Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about. Who else is quoted? George Trimbleble who's a VP at Martin corporation their riass their anti-gravity research program he says Anti-gravity research is you know, we're gonna we're we're gonna figure this out in in just amount and just the same amount of time That it took to figure out the atom bomb like it's it's right around the bend sort of thing you had the patron of Bell aircraft they just broken the sound barrier with the with the X1 1947 so there you go Michael glad I the G engines are coming yeah whoa whoa by far the most potent source of energy is gravity using it as power future aircraft will attain the speed of light

holy shit and And Bell says like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity Richard Arnowit and Stanley Desser have a diagram of how it would work. It's why protective boundary layer. Yep cabin Electronic rockets gravity generator. They talk about gravity particles. Stanley Desser and Richard Arnowitt at Princeton are studying this. So what do you think was going on? I think they were deeply investigating antigravity.

But do you think they had a working model? I think they had an effect called the Beifield-Brown effect that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level and you could do it in a vacuum which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for thrust. So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is.

So you take a capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor. And the two are, in between the two is an insulator called a high K dielectric.

So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity. And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses. And you see thrust going from the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air.

Because ions are being produced, and then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right? So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber where there basically is no air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it. There are other things that break physics as we know it.

You had Sonny White on. He talked about the Casimir effect, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract. There's the Aronoff-Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic four potential. There are other effects in physics where you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm. I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example.

It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff. We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta. The orbit of Mercury is another good example where we didn't understand, we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature in Einstein. So Newton didn't understand, you know, we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time

curvature in Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my belief is the Bifield-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly visually unify the field, or it's pointing towards something else, gravitational shielding, or it's pointing towards how I'll put off stuff around, you know, quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't know I don't have a great Theory theory for how it works I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion That leads us to today. It's an effect. That's not supposed to happen and this

What is this, Jamie? The bifurcum effect, the thermal thruster in a vacuum chamber. Yeah, that's a lateral propeller version of it. And you don't have to listen to me, by the way, the lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Buehler. He's been doing this for 20 years,

and he's at Kennedy Space Center. They use electrostatics to clean dust off the lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged. And he's the most senior guy in electrostatics. And he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force. And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown. I could show you in an interview. He literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy

to discover this. He's updated it a bit. He says that it's not just sheer voltage. You don't need to use mega voltage and actually electric field strength is the most important thing. So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust.

But he has a whole company around this. It's called Exodus Space. So like, you don't have to listen. Another very credentialed person if we're on that, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 Stealth Bomber. I don't think it's the anti-gravity part. It's a part called Electro-hydrodynamics

that made it into the B2 Stealth Bomber. But the point is I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman and he also was the Army representative of the UAP task force along with David Grush where they were investigating UFOs. And he says, I was in a room filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs. I was like, Carl, these people want actionable stuff. Like, can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff, or is it all like kind of metaphysical, you know, and like kind of not even wrong,

as Feynman would say. And he goes, well, if you want, you know, some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. And so like, I've gotten this time and time again, where I've had all these private experiences About you know with Brown where I'm like is anybody seeing this like this is crazy and It's you know, I don't know it's weird. Let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experience

Experiments initially. Yeah, what year was this the early early 20s. So like 1923, 24 range. Whoa. He was a child prodigy. So they're a newspaper climate. He was from Zanesville, Ohio. He was born in 1905. And 1915, he was, you know, caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil. Then at age 12, the World War government, under Woodrow Wilson, who was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkie-talkie system that he had developed at the time.

And there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that totally corroborate this. He then goes to Caltech, he studies under a guy named Robert Milliken, who's actually a really well-respected physicist who helped develop Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually demonstrated experimentally. Millikan doesn't really give him the time of day on the Bifield-Brown effect. And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using coolage x-ray tubes. So these are really early x-ray tubes and they have every x-ray tube has or every coolage tube has a cathode and an anode, so a negative and a positive electrode.

And he would pump it full of high voltage electricity and the wire would jump. And then he would actually put it in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping and then he would suspend it from the ceiling and it would keep jumping. And he was like, what's going on? This isn't supposed to happen. And there are ways to again explain that away via traditional electrostatics. So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it. But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred Bifield.

And Denison University for the longest time has denied that relationship and now they're admitting it, which I find really funny. The archivist there is now admitting it. There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Bifeld signs a letter saying, I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect. From there, he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius,

who's at the Wright Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, flight test division. He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the crazy flight tests. In 1952, he says, believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened. And I'm frightened for it getting out because, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit,

because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development, and that's in 1952. He then shows a fan precipitator experiment which really shows the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is similar but not the same as the electromagnetism gravity thing, to Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb. And Edward Teller himself says, I don't know how this works.

And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter, and I have this by the way on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened, it turns to her and she says, I've never heard him say that because he's such a genius. I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-MOM. And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Brown was an associate of Bill Lear. You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab, in the Bainson lab in North Carolina together.

In fact, there's a Chapel Hill Conference in 1957, which basically creates quantum gravity, of which the offshoot is string theory. And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show. It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding Brown's work in the back room. And there is video of Brown working on his experiments,

working under Agnew Bainson. And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research. University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff. The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy. He revoked Oppenheimer's cue clearance, and he's also implicated in these sort of MJ-12 documents, which I don't necessarily wanna mush in with Brown.

It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens. But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who are sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people. At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers.

And there's video of him popping champagne, where it's like, why are you popping champagne? Probably because you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum. So again, it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect. Before that, a year before that, in Paris at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum.

And this guy named Jacques Corneon was this, he died in 2009, but Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a phone call that is recorded saying, the tests were very tricky, but in the end, we got it to work, and he's on his deathbed, and he's saying all of this. And you have a 125 page report for the Montgolfier Project, and when Brown comes back to America,

he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher who runs Rampant I mean there's so many Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H bomb. He's talking to this guy Wilbert Smith. Who's this? Magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations via you know with UFOs And so he's the guy that picks up and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for that picks up and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time and he's the guy who picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we've got to take this seriously because you got it to work in a vacuum. The idea that they've kept all this secret for all these years seems impossible. I don't think it is.

To me. Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm sure it's not. Yeah. You know what I mean, I'm sure it's not yeah, you know what I mean, but from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for Decades. Yeah it seems

Crazy to me, but he had something that Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine Which is basically showing people something called it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect which is not the electrogravitic effect so these are two very different things one is coupling again electromagnetism and gravity somehow or creating some gravity shielding or whatever that you can do this in a vacuum and then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have basically these balsa wood structures.

You have tin foil at the bottom, and you have a copper wire at the top. The copper wire is the positive electrode. The tin foil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust in a certain direction.

So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electro-gravitic thing. It wears the mantle of being electro-gravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that you can just describe using normal physics and Newton's laws. Well, what about material science? what about the actual structure itself? You know because this is where it gets really weird right? Yeah. These nano layers of whatever the material is that's being used. What was the... was it Bismuth? Bismuth, yeah. So this is what's crazy. So magnesium Bismuth shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electro-gravitic effects because it's a high K dielectric.

It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Whitten, who's the father of Ed Whitten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wine says is the Michael Jordan of physics on your show. And Lewis Whitten says, there's a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting. Who's named Townsend at that time?

It's clear he's talking about Townsend Brown. If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples that he studied, Gary Nolan is, you know, a PhD at Stanford, a tenured professor, and he has, you know, spun out multiple nine-figure companies in biotechnology. Really smart guy. He runs the Seoul Foundation. They're studying sort of, you know, non-human intelligence. He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallee, who you've had on as the French godfather of UFOlogy, who, you know, his address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques.

Jacques, you know, sends a lot of his materials to Gary. One of the materials is magnesium bismuth. And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric and it's over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown. So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments

is also showing up in UFO lore. Do you explore the possibility that the Roswell crash was not from another world? That's where it gets weird man because that was early. That was July of 1947. Right, like so the bismuth thing, when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird right? That's where it's layered thinner than, you know, it's like micron layered, like thinner than human hairs. I think the HAL put off quote on this. And I don't know the provenance on that.

And I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space, I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash. It was like... If it didn't come from the Roswell crash, let's imagine is it possible to make that stuff today and with those layers How put off would say no and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know People who are very smart on this subject like how and Gary who I speak to you know at a decent frequency say no Okay, so they say no, maybe they're wrong, maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it,

but could they recreate it at scale? Like, could they 3D print that to something that could actually get people inside and fly around? And then, could that have been done in 1947? That's where it gets super fucking weird. It gets super weird. Because you, you know, there's some leaps, right? Okay, we had the H-bomb, you know, we had,

we had atomic energy, we had a lot of stuff back then. They split the atom. There's some really incredible advances. I don't believe we had anti-gravity. That, like, if I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think, you know, he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff, he was using these capacitor models

and trying to get that experimentally proven and sometimes being thwarted via mainstream academic circles at that time. Like the Chapel Hill Conference was much later and that's where he's like kind of officially proving this stuff in the US government context in 1957. So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an anti-early

Antigrav Kelly Goddard who is a father of American rocketry was doing rocket testing at Around Roswell at the time like it and so that's like total chemical combustion you had V2s at the time were you know? Yeah, that was a line opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering Absolutely, which is where it gets really weird. So now it's we're not dealing with hidden science. We're not dealing with top secret compartmentalized Like you know need to know everything's pushed away into skunkworks and wherever the fuck it's done You're talking about something that's not from here. Well, it's interesting you say back engineering in 1949 there is a contract that anybody can look up

I put it on the dock Jamie between right Patterson or the right airfield at the time and Battelle Memorial Institute and you have Any shout out Columbus Ohio all roads lead to Ohio, right? Yeah, and you have all these to Ohio. Right? And you have all these titanium alloys and one of them is called nitinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy. So this is 49. This is 1949. And so if you have, you know, Army intelligence officer, you know, Jesse Marcel says that he picks up the crash material and he says that it was like this member shape metal memory metal thing that you would Kind of you know mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right? it was like this kind of like tinfoil II like thing and So nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s

That was when it was actually fully published But you have this contract between Wright right Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute where you have nitinol as one of the metals that they're testing. Not only that, in 2012, they use the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Center, E.J. Center, was one of the co-authors of that paper. Elroy John Center died, I think, in 1991. Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott, and they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy was this metallurgist, he worked at Patel. Again, he's been foyad as part of this paper, and he says, I worked on alien material and

that there were weird hieroglyphics on it and that I had to like, you know, I was a chemist, and so he had to look at like metal impurities, but he was also meant to decipher the hieroglyphics on it or whatever. And so I don't know, was Nitinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered? Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield. Or was it this one to one thing and E.J. Center is at the center of it, no pun intended, where he's FOIA'd in 2012 and he says he's looking at UFO material and he's on record working at Patel you can

Look that up You know is their record that the Roswell crash was brought to write But that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed. Mm-hmm and that Truman met them there Yep, I don't I don't know if that's true I want to see a photo of the fucking hieroglyphs I know could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing? Do you think that would be amazing? Do you think you have a better chance? Now than ever at being because you interviewed Trump

Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy and I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the pH is right. Oh dude, if that's possible, I don't think they tell Trump shit. I think they would withhold that from him. Why would you tell that guy? Yeah, well. That guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned.

I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of like withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff. There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, black budget stuff that has been kept under wraps for fucking decades,

you think they're gonna tell the guy who is the host of The Apprentice? I don't think they tell him, because I think he's only in there for four years. Probably not with two caveats. One is his son, Don Jr., interviewed him and said, what do you think happened at Roswell? And he said, well, I think there's something

very interesting that might have happened. Yeah, that's all he ever says. And he says, he was on your show too. He doesn't spill the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he doesn't spill the beans because he doesn't know where the beans are. Right. Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking guy.

Like he needs to know more. Is that really his primary concern? He's a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs. Like is it? He said no psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not even interested in this concept. I think about that sometimes with people on the hill that I speak to where I'm like Can you just like I'm giving you all this info?

Can you think outside the box figure it out and they they don't compute it? There's something there's a person who like you're the archetype of this who's like so fascinated by it Right, and then there is a person who goes but I gotta pay taxes. Yeah, they have to get reelected. They're super busy. Yeah, you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that. And that bug has to bite you. You have to get infected with UFO lime disease. If you don't, you're not going to want to release all this stuff. And I don't think Trump is infected. I mean, I think his, even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things. Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton and it was one of the few times in history that a sitting president has mentioned the military industrial complex wanting to go to war.

These guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview, and I remember thinking, wow, that is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors and there's insane amounts of money involved and these these guys want to go to war and he was saying that in that interview I'm like this is I mean, this is what Eisenhower said when he was leaving office straight up. Yeah straight up There's this there's a straight line between then and now and it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it It's like you had the Civil War, 1861. Now we have like a deep state war going on where it's like Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this like light warrior

and she's being like red teamed and attacked and she doesn't know who's on her side. It's crazy. It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets done and it's set up so nothing gets done. but my point is that Trump, his response to that is an informed response. Like there's this military industrial complex, these people want to go to war. He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way.

Right. He's like, I've seen some things, crazy things. What is that? What are you saying? Like would you be specific? You got handsome pilots, they know crew cuts like you they look Guys nice guys good Americans like what what what do you know? Didn't you say something on your podcast about men from Mars or something? He goes the people from Mars I don't you it's hard with him because he speaks in this Sing songy oversimplified way. And he rants.

And he rants. Well, he's got a strong rant muscle, right? Because he does these stadium tours where he goes to these enormous places and he basically just works without a script. So it's like he's got a rant muscle. There's a few people, like Tim Dillon is the best comedian who has a rant muscle.

He just can rant. He just like get a microphone in front of him and a subject and he knows what to say That Trump has that muscle he's developed that muscle over all these years of campaigning And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that ramp muscle when the mics on and you got To like interject like hold on. Okay, but what are you saying? Like what do you know like what do you know? Like will you release this information? Like what what

if you found out that for sure we have been visited and that we are in possession of crashed UFOs that were not made by China, they were not made by Russia, they're not made by America, they're from another civilization that we don't understand. would you tell us? What do you think you would say? There's a lot of information. I don't know if I could release it. I don't know if they let me you know like I don't know What holds it back? I want to know if he's in it like did you see age of disclosure? I didn't actually you should it's really good I mean, I don't know how you'd see it right now, because it's not released yet. I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released.

Did you come out believing more and more skeptical? What was your...? Both. Both. With all of it. I think some is bullshit. Some of it is misinformation. Some of it is they're releasing this slow trickle. Like, if it all is real, I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept, just the idea that we're not alone and just

get it in there. Okay, first step, first shot across the bow, 2017 New York Times. New York Times says, not of this world. Oh my god You know, you see the the pictures of the gimbal and the go-fast and you're like, okay. All right now we're talking But that's eight fucking years ago, right? Nothing real significant in eight years And so then you have sightings you have these you know, it was different pilots commander Fravor He comes out does podcasts you have Ryan Graves. He comes down those, he does podcasts, you have Ryan Graves, he comes down and does podcasts, you know, you have Lou Elizondo, everybody's talking, no one's showing you shit.

You had Fowler, who you had on your show. What did you think of him? I thought that they've gotta show data. They have on their website, like website a container for the data. They haven't populated it yet. I want to see the data and I want to see a scientist. They don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to go in being like,

I don't know what UFOs are. I don't know anything about this stuff. What is this? And vetting it. Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research where I know there's a nuclear connection, there's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like 600 pages.

And it is 167 queue-cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases, where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, or saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes. And so it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, what do you think of Skywatcher? I'm like, if I don't have that ontology

where UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I'm deep in this and they do, they show up all around the world. There is a town in Japan called Eno, which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture. Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s. It has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built. Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs.

Vice did a documentary in 2022 because they are obsessed with UFOs. There are geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain. Senganmori there and and their UFO researchers there. And like everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Bariloche, Argentina, 1995, you have a commercial, they're famous for, again, civilian nuclear grid, commercial pilot at Aerolinas Argentinas or whatever, famous UFO sighting.

It shuts down the power at the airport and the thing has the, the plane can't land and then it goes around in a circle and there are people on the on the flight who have been interviewed it's on a you know the YouTube video it's pretty simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell 1947 the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date at that time 1947. So there are all these declassified documents. In 1949, there was an emergency meeting, declassified Air Force document that is verified

between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI, Office of Naval Intelligence. All these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US in 1952 There's a look magazine article where captain Edward J. Ruppelt who's kind of marginalized pre Blue book really taking off with Jalen Heineck who I think was basically a disinfo agent where he said I do

Yeah And he's claimed to have like gotten better and kind of be you know like like I he admitted his part in the cover-up But then I think he kept going on with some fuckery. Yeah. Yeah. So if you don't have that ontology, there's even, there's Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general and in a German magazine from 2000 he's interviewed and he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement and when we Transport certain material the UFOs show up in chapter 9 of the invisible college by Jacques Vallee he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system and when we you know

it's like a node lights up like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous. So if you don't have that ontology, like yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit, like in the desert, like getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon,

I'm sorry. But because if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up. What they're getting to show up, I don't know. Can they get it to land? I don't know. I think-

So can you explain how they're getting this stuff to show up? What signals are they putting out there that represent something to these, supposedly something to these UAPs? Unfortunately they kind of black box it. So I have to assume it's either nuclear. They do say that they have a dog whistle which is a certain frequency.

There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have docked that might be their thing but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing. So there are. But the idea is they call them. They call them. They use something to send a signal out there and then these crafts respond Is it a hundred percent of the time? they say that the dog whistle works a hundred percent of the time and they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and

Of this is really weird but humans trying to call in the UFOs. I've heard that before right? Yeah Yeah, see five is sort of a common I said on our show. I don't think but this how we're talking about. I don't want to make it that Might be yeah 2.5. Yeah, what do you not want to make? I don't know do me to show this or not I don't know if it's in it's bad. I don't want to give it I don't think I don't think sky watcher would like say that that's definitely You know endorse that as's definitely, you know, endorsed that as their thing, but because they kind of black box it, but that could be.

Okay, so what it's saying, want to know how to make the dog whistle for summoning UAP, here's how, super easy. What's the signal? 7.83 Hertz carrier via modulated 100 Hertz bass tone, Schumannumann resonance you understand any of this Me yeah, you know what they're saying well I get Schumann resonance is the kind of you know Electromagnetic frequency of the earth itself, and so I don't know what that means modulated via what is this 528 Hertz harmonic spiritual frequency? What is that? Low tone is that what is Jamie? I just know the numbers so like when you get up to 17 K That's a high that's a real high pitch like oh and the high numbers like that are low

Yeah, and then low is so it's just a that's thousand and then not thousand so 20 Hertz is as low as you can hear That's like a low bass sound. Mmm So I guess there's being generated out of some sort of machine which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it But you can't if you just played on a piano or anything you know. Interesting and then organic 2.5 hertz chirps every 10 second like creature calls giving it a unique signature huh. I don't know where he would get this. There's so many kooks out there. There are a lot. Boy, there's so many kooks. There are so many kooks.

Kooks and grifters. It's infiltrated. It's every... So my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many kooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truth than full kooks and grifters. And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes and you are doing some than full kooks and grifters. Hooey. Yeah. And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes

and you are doing some controlled opposition thing, but I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info. Right, that's the problem. That's the problem. I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking to them, I think you're at least partially full of shit,

but keep going. Yeah. Tell me more. Yeah, totally. You're like, I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me. And you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit and then you'll track it.

Right, right, right. And like, it's this weird game. Well, in the age of disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running and if they have been back engineering crafts that are not of this world there's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds so anybody who did that is going to jail so what

they're calling for is mass amnesty they're calling to say hey you know we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program otherwise we're never gonna learn anything. And then there's the problem with corporations. So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about that? Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't clue us? So then they wanna sue.

So then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever, interfering with competition. Yes, so there are all those issues. right now the uap disclosure act is up again It was killed by a guy named mike turner who has a bunch of aerospace the fuck mike mike. Come on. Mike. Come on. Mike He's out now. Oh, he he and guess what he represented datan, ohio where right paterson air force base is Sorry jamie jamie gets so excited when you'd bring up a tell all the Ohio shit we've gone deep I mean but tell is very implicated in all this stuff from the 40s from the 40s but even the also main anomalies resolution office which is like the authoritative office that is I think think, the modern blue book that's basically saying,

don't look here, like this is all bullshit or whatever. It's run by a guy named Shankirk Patrick. He has all these atomic connections. He worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake. The guy that formed Arrow, upon whose recommendation Arrow was formed, was a guy named Ed Moultrie, who was undersecretary of defense for intelligence,

and he was on Battelle's board, and he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn. And my good friend UAP Gerb, who has an amazing channel, he's a super deep UFO researcher, showed that it was on his resume, and then he recommends that arrow form. It's like the total conflict of interest. It's insane, It's insane.

Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure, like legal bottlenecks. Yes. Yeah. Especially the misappropriation of funds. I mean, how much money was involved? You must be talking about billions and billions

and billions of dollars, if all these programs are real. So if they've been lying to Congress. It's on the order, it has to be on, and it's funny, a lot of modern disclosure talks about OSAP and AATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid. And that budget was $22 million. A single F35 costs four times that.

The B2 costs like two billion dollars. Like, give me a break. The nature of reality, you're gonna spend $22 million. So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this, like, clearly this thing to like get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out, or whatever. The core program, if there is a core program,

which obviously I believe there's a core program it's on the Order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th 2001 where he said two trillion dollars was missing from the Pentagon's budget It's shit like that or this woman named Katherine Austin fits who was just on Tucker Carlson Who is at Housing and Urban Development under George Bush 41, where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget.

It is not this little 10, 20 million dollar. She's talking about a 21 trillion dollar breakaway civilization that's been developed. Yeah. What? Yeah, and she says it at a moment. First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher, half that interview, and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is, so it's this funny thing.

And then he's like, where are the funds being used? And she goes, space. And it's like, where? It's not being used. It's SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear, right? Right. SpaceX, Blue Origin, so like, what do you mean, space? Right right SpaceX blew origin so like what do you mean space like? SpaceX is basically like those fucking go-karts that people send down hills with no engines right you know I mean like those things called you know those things and they have races where people they make their own Down the hill Yeah, yeah

Yeah, that's what it's like yeah, that's what SpaceX says Exactly if we have any of this shit, that, what a box is a little box. Yeah, that's what it's like. Yeah, that's what SpaceX says Exactly, right if we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is. Yeah using really ancient technology to achieve These results its business model. It's and I think he on is amazing. He's single-handedly Resuscitated NASA, but it is a it is an earth-based space company. I think he keeps stuff secret. He does. He absolutely keeps stuff secret. When he tells me there's no evidence of aliens, like there's something about it that just stinks. When he's saying it, I'm like, okay.

So, okay. I'm looking at him. Yeah. Nothing? Yeah. You don't think nothing? I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before I found stumbled down this when you guys were talking about some stealth project. This is an article from

Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who wrote it. He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then he's talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who through monitoring like the about a guy named Steve Douglas who through monitoring like the communications, he heard different pilots talking about what probably is the TR-3 Black Manta. And then it says he's got a picture of it. I couldn't find it anywhere online. Nothing even close comes up to it. But this says he had a video of it, a picture. I'm assuming some people have seen it because it talks about it. Then it

goes into talking more and more about how he did this. And he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night that you were mentioning the Mach 6 aura when I was like, when you said that is when I found this on here. That's fascinating. I haven't seen it. There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR-3A and the the TR3B. The Belgian wave occurred around this time and it was like late 80s, early 90s. I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human. Mmm. Because it's just, it's a derivative. The Phoenix light stuff.

Like, because a lot of people saw it during the Phoenix lights. They saw the triangle craft. Yeah, that's... Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane and saw the Phoenix light. This is the one I brought up the other day. They said they think was in Desert Storm and they just don't really have that's why any proof online today. So So here are three B is the truck this looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen Yeah, look, what is the fucking center of it? What's that all about?

Just probably someone made, you know a photo trying to describe it No, the bottom of it is what everybody says, you know Why? So that the TR3 series that was built by Northrop I believe is that right like Aurora was locking that was our if you can from that look like Date no one knows this is like that No one has any proof of these even existing all the talk online is back into the 90s of just like do these exist We probably have them. So I knows for sure. So's a weird okay so I think if this is north I think TR3 the TR3 series is Northrop so the connection between Northrop and Townsend

Brown is in the mid 60s Townsend Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd O'dlum Floyd O'dlum is the majority owner of Northrop pre-merger with Grumman. And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica. This was all this investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out. He's doing these experiments. Bill Lear is actually has an office across the street. They're doing all sorts of cool innovative stuff. He does a series of presentations, Curtis LeMay, for the Rand Corporation, for all sorts

of kind of head haunches when it comes to American military. In 1967, Guidance Technologies shuts down with no explanation. They say, you know, our results all failed. But after a series of these high-level meetings. That was at the end of 1967. Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electro-Aero Dynamics and Supersonic Flow, or In Supersonic Flow, and it is basically paying homage to Electro-Hydrodynamics

and Townsend Brown's work. It is exactly, part and parcel, Townsend Brown's work. They then do a press release at the time. They retract the press release because they are embarrassed. Then later Bill Scott at Aviation Week in I think 1992 says the B2 surfs its own wave using the byfield Brown effect. There's a guy who's known as the doyen of British aviation journalism. His name is Bill Gunston and he and an Air International magazine is doing a survey-level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II and he says I am I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work but I

don't want to end up in the Tower of London. So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B2 stealth bomber. What? Yes. What is the Tower of London? What's that reference to? He's just saying I don't want to end up in jail.

Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up. I don't think it was like, you but he's like don't get on my ass surfs its own wave surfs its own wave so if you put that electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow paper which is available you could put that into chat GBT and how it could be like how can this confer an advantage to an airframe for you know that yeah you can do that. I'll tell you what it's like. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's wild. It's wild. It'll give you a bunch of answers. It serves its own weight. So that's the paper, yeah. All right. How do I download it then? Electro aerodynamics.

So my point, if the TR3A and B are real, like the B2 is still so locked down. We sell F35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody, even including allied nations. The ticket price is two billion. They have a new version of the B2

that's, you know, I think like 700 million or whatever, but they weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down. It's pretty crazy. Wow. So what would they be doing? Like how would it be surfing its own wave? Like what advantage would that confer? If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much and so you get more lift and there's reduced drag the shock wave is reduced

The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the the frame hits the air And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade But that even you know conventional ai will tell you that it will do as far as being helped gun to head How far do you think they've gotten this stuff? Man, I mean this stuff was being, this was like 80s and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s. So definitely way farther than that, you know. Do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about that we see on the desk right there, the sport model, do you think that that was ours? That feels really hard for me to

say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled. Also, no seams. No seams. Looks like it's 3D printed. Totally. Element 113 or 115 rather, and this generator that nobody understands. Yeah, I'm, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert. And this is where it gets weird because everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity. Including Lazar. Like he said, when he saw the sticker on it, there was an American flag sticker on the

sport model. He's like, oh, I get it. These are ours. That's why people keep seeing them. And then as he starts examining these things, he's like, no, this is not ours. What the fuck is this? This is meant for three foot tall things.

There's no controls in this, what is this? If reality has a governor on it, and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird, quantum computing, if reality has a governor on it and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird, quantum computing. If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off, is it like a hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place or do you get one neat solution?

You don't get one neat solution, of course not. It's a zoo of things. And so at the time that the government's kind of unraveling and we have all these, we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever and you get these secret science lineages and then our apertures are open. People are waking up to greater realities. The fact that the pandemic could even happen like is sort of so crazy. And then it makes you question it was like, what about the Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine and all these things?

I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just You know accounts for the UFOs and the aliens right and the UFOs and nuke stuff which was happening since the 40s Where it's like, I don't I don't know how I can't explain that via anti-gravity experiments And then there's a question of how many? How many different civilizations visit us? How many different things? How many different versions of these things are there? If this is like a testing ground, is this open to the general public of space?

Also not zero or one, probably zero or a hundred. It's probably a zoo of things. Right. It's just the most likely thing. That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler where they were Documenting the different shapes and I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer? You don't have a flying saucer Yeah, how come you don't have a flying saucer? You have all these other shapes. Totally. You have a tic-tac You have a Tetris or whatever the fuck it is. Uh-huh. Where's the one that everybody see the the iconic yeah, Billy Myers. Yeah. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, you know it is weird Oh, so do you work for the CIA?

You have to answer if I ask you is it like you remember those movies We ask a guy if they're an undercover cop you ask them if they're a cop they have to tell you Yeah, people really used to believe that yeah, it's just a fictional tool. They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops They don't have to tell you but there is I think there's like one two two triple three or whatever We're like if you're CIA you can't be fucking with domestic stuff, which I think they break all the fucking time They probably passed laws that bypass that a long time ago for sure well I yeah, I mean I think they also killed JFK. This is the Bainson lab video.

There you go. What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said the generator looks like that's inside the UFO. Well here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed,

which I think is very interesting. And he says in Structure of Space, there are two forms of gravity. He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills. And he talks about how the, yeah, it's crazy. He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons And so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that creates a gravity Well like this inward pull but in fact, it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model And again, I would not over index on his theory

I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory. Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics. Hal Puthoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff, Sonny White, you know, other people like that. But yeah, it is interesting that you both of these guys had two versions of gravity. Yeah, it people like that. But, yeah, it is interesting that both of these guys had two versions of Gravity. Yeah, it's very interesting.

It's very interesting. And the Lazar stuff, to me, it's... If a guy's gonna be a liar like that, he's gonna tell a lot of lies. Right. It's not gonna be just one lie from 89. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

That you basically say the same version of Forever. Yeah. I mean, the basically say the same version of forever. Yeah, I mean the The other weird thing in that story is in messengers of deception Jacques Valais book He talks about because he's not a believer in Lazar. He talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid and Lazar even talks about this openly that he was forced to Drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something. And it causes memory lapses in certain cases. So that's also a weird factor, but there is so much, I think my buddy Luigi,

I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey who has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52. And he's met Lazar through Luigi. And I don't wanna blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being being at area 51 s4 And so it's it's so fascinating so they gave him this liquid to kills memory I don't know if he knew the intent it was just drink this or whatever and then he said that it caused at least

In the valet readout. He says that it caused memory lapses lapses is the quote in messengers of deception Hmm, but here's this way it gets so confusing if you have MK ultra was super widespread It was deleted, you know the church committee or whatever But like it was it was a very widespread program What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MK ultra? It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw a flying saucer. It would be around the flying saucer program to fuck with the person's memory so that they

couldn't read certain things out. So it's just this, again, it's hard to say. Well then there's also weird stuff like the large folder that was on religion. Yes. You know, like how much of that is just misinformation? I think a lot of that was passage material because it's similar to stuff. Passage material? What does that mean? It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things. You can track

where the provably false stuff goes or whatever. It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it. It's like spooky intel shit. And in 79, there's a guy named Rick Doty who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane, basically. He views this vertically taken off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base, where there are a lot of interesting things seen. And he has shown similar things along with Linda Moulton Howe is taken in front of a two-way mirror and Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent, who

we know is acting in bad faith at that time. He's even come out and admitted this, shows her this thing called Project Garnet. And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Lazar. Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this like ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing?

That doesn't make sense. So, and this is what I love about Lazar. Lazar will admit that like, he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit and I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft and I don't Take any of that stuff fully at face value So it was there's project Galileo. There's time there's looking glass, you know

there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are but do any of these people that Supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are did any of these people recall a Conversation where they warn us about AI That's such a great question. I don't think so. I don't think so either. It's almost always nuclear. That seems crazy I don't think so. I don't think so either.

It's almost always nuclear. That seems crazy. Well, maybe. That seems crazy. That there's no discussion about you are on the verge of something truly spectacular. Maybe AI is their control system. Maybe they are AI.

Maybe they are AI. Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed and the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology. We are now experimenting with Computational biology you can use things like like this neuroscientist Carl Friston the free energy prints There's this company called cortical labs, and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelectrode Plate arrays and they program Like rat cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks.

And so like if that's the super base level, right? Like we're just creating the like transistors for this like new model of computation. But if you go way out into the future, you have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and these things could be drone avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash? This could be their Earth homeostasis kit

that they've deployed. They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to oversee the Earth. And a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing or like. Well, it's also like Pasolka, Diana Pasolka. She thinks they're donations. That's what she says.

Yeah, they're called donation sites and yeah Which is like if you want accelerated evolution like hey wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this yeah, leave the wheel You know look over here leave this leave that it kind of I mean That's the way to get someone to think outside the box plant the seed Yeah You just you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this. If you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island, which has no contact with humans, what would you do? You might just airdrop a computer. Figure it out, you know? Maybe like a computer.

Let's start with a lighter. Yeah, but yeah, you would give them some stuff. Yep. Yeah. And let them figure out how to make that you would give them some stuff. Yep. Yeah. And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff. Totally. Especially if you have some complex alloy, like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is, with layered, like, find that, figure that out. Can you make it?

Yeah. You get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it. You do it over decades because you really can't open it up. And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized. You need to be able to open it up to collaboration. You couldn't collaborate. You weren't allowed to.

So it's like, we're not going to get anywhere. Okay, we're going to bring in new people. We're going to bring in a new guy, see if this new genius can, hey, what do you think of this? Like, what is it? You tell me. That could be a part of what's happening with Disclosure where if you have Cold War era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down.

We can't let them know anything. But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch up. And then all of a sudden, they play catch up. And then all of a sudden maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid FOIA requests where you have restricted data covering material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever.

And you're at the top of the national security Pie and you're like, holy shit, like we need to update this stuff So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels We need some disclosure on these things you can't it is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a Prodigy to not even think this shit is real, right? Right, right And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up and they're like make this

completely open up and Like I don't know if you've read there's a great Chinese science fiction novel called the three-body problem great show on Netflix It's amazing and the CCP will show up at your door and say come work for us You are working here and that's not really the way we do things. So the way we do things is like, you get the stuff out in these kind of partial limited hangouts thing. You go, go compete, like just like the AI stuff.

You know? It's like, see what happens. Over there, if you leak it, they'll just fucking kill you. Yeah, exactly. You're not gonna leak it. No, yeah, yeah. It's to me, the question of civilization, are we alone's to me the question of civilization. Are we alone?

It is the question. And I don't think we are. That's my gut instinct. I don't think we are. It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are. I agree. What about the numbers? Just the sheer numbers?

It doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we, in this one very tiny planet, it's spinning around a not-so-special star. Occam's razor is we are not alone. You have the Fermi paradox, you have the Drake equation, you have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that. But also, look at, there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbusman, and he talks about how at any given time,

50% of received knowledge, our physical model of the universe is wrong. So you can say those things are showing up in the sky, that is wrong because physics, but historically you would have been wrong. That's crazy, it's a bad point, right? And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not,

modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past. If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament, like a multitude of angels, you have angels and demon, you know, that's kind of the passport to Magonia, Dina Pasolka, American Cosmic Thesis.

Like, this stuff has been going on forever. You look at the devas in Hindu culture, or the jinn in Islamic culture. We are outnumbered in our modern enlightenment, rational, skeptic epistemology. Yeah, we really are. And how many depictions from the past of flying things, Ezekiel from the Bible, Vimanas, all these different, like, what are they saying? What are these things? What do you think that stuff is? Like, what is it? You know? But then again, you and I,

neither one of us has had an experience. So we're just like fucking I'm in the wind I've seen something I've seen a UFO. But I've seen I've seen actually a few but really yeah Yeah, how you been so lucky? I don't know. I don't know. I and it's cuz they know and I and I they're like They're UFO researchers that like don't like to talk about this But I think the move is just be honest like I've seen the thing and I don't know I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live and I saw a thing that Looked like a fucking school bus. It looked like like no visible propulsion this like sort of low humming noise or whatever

It was maybe 50 60 70 feet high like above, like right above the treetops. The trippiest part of the experience and why it's just so weird is I was with this woman, I was kind of dating at the time, we were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon, and she was like, are you into aliens? I was like, actually, I kind of am into that. I was kind of interested in that topic.

And then I think I joked back, I was like, I kind of want to meet an alien. And she was like, actually, I kinda am into that. I was kinda interested in that topic. And then I think I joked back, I was like, I kinda wanna meet an alien. And she was like, me too. And then she goes, you'll meet them when you stop looking for them. Oh, that bitch is an alien. And then as we're, this is the weirdest part of the whole story, as we're walking,

it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's like looking for something, or it's like, why are you looking for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon or whatever? So like that felt like this weird like, you know, like mirroring of our conversation. Again, I have no fucking idea. Then we walk into this little clearing

and we see this like school bus thing, like just go right over the tree top. What color was it? It was silver metallic Like an airstream trailer Like an air like an airstream hit trailer. Yeah, I can send you guys a video I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast I described it and I was sent a video and for all I know this video is fucking fake by the way

But it was the thing that looked most like what I saw because it doesn't match up with like the saucer Triangle thing. Yeah, and I don't know I am almost more inclined to say discount My own thing over like the queue cleared guys who've like seen these things that there was it in the sky for It was in the sky for like a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever. She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance. I did not see that. And like, Laurel Canyon is like mostly residential, so like where did it descend to?

Yeah. Right. I don't know. So what else have you seen? You said you saw more than one thing? Yeah, so another time, I was actually with a friend who invests like with me and Peter and is like the most rational guy you'll ever meet like he's a he's a fan of like no Chomsky and like David Hume like like he is a modern rationalist atheist skeptic and We went surfing that day. We're back at his place. I was super into holotropic breath work at the time, which I love and We were back at his place. I was super into holotropic breath work at the time,

which I love. And we were doing holotropic breath work. Five minutes in, we both see these like metallic looking orbs, this time super high up in the sky, like probably higher than what you would, definitely way higher than a drone. And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me, similar to like

the typical like orb that you know a lot of people sort of describing the Mosul orb or whatever, you know a lot of these sightings and He looks at me and he I go like what the fuck is that he goes Dude, I think that's like some secret black locky tech or whatever and then I don't even say anything Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here. He's like, that's not Lockheed. Like, I don't know what that is.

Do you entertain the possibility there's states of consciousness that you could achieve where these things become visible? Absolutely. And you've had Rick Strassman on, he talks about DMT, the spirit molecule. He talks about DMT as like night vision, or like it's like goggles or a window.

It's like Aldous Huxley, the doors of your perception. Are you superimposing a hallucination onto reality? Or are you just seeing, we see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We see between 400 and 700 nanometers. Our audio range, there's a certain decibel limit, right? So like, when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality,

but we just don't have access to them? And it's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality. And so it's this interesting philosophical question. I don't know the answer to it. Right, would we even be able to function if we had access to that? Probably not.

Probably not. No, there's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's a cognitive psychologist, and he talks about, it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves? Like, why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies? Right, right, right, yeah. We need to iconize everything we see, just like a desktop computer.

Like, why do you see red? Because, oh, boom, red, blood, gotta run, you know, whatever. And then they hack that with notifications on social media. But the point is we are seeing inherently a collapsed, condensed version of reality. We aren't seeing the thing itself. And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yes, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're lying. That's full on, it ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm, but neither the skeptic, we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes. And that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying.

So who knows? And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show, I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more. But it's not to say you should discount these people's experiences where they do, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience the thing, maybe that thing is real.

Either, there might be multiple different types of things that come by and the the nuclear one is a weird one I mean if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities You'd be like hey Fuckers slow down. Oh, yeah break son. You know, you would freak out unquestionably, you know That's why we named the the rooms at the comedy mothership fat man and little boy Because that's when they started showing up. Yeah, that's when we got a lot of sightings was post post the bombs Totally and I love I love the mothership by the way It's amazing and I love going and seeing how UFO theme like

in preparation for this I've had a couple friends be like man Joe Joe's like anti UFO though I'm like no he's just frustrated with disclosure go to the mothership the whole fucking thing They say I'm anti UFO this fucking UFOs ever is one of the deaths I know so you broke the biggest UFO story of all time like it's you've done more for disclosure than anybody in my opinion Well, I'm not anti UFO, but I'm I'm allergic to bullshit and this stuff some of it smells like bullshit Which is I would be remiss if we didn't talk about those little mummies in Peru What do you think is going on there? They break my brain stay where they are there This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with, and I wish I could give

you a definitive, these things are definitely dead aliens. I cannot say that definitively at all. I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms. They're organisms that they- If they're not. They're incredible works of art. If they're not they're the most sophisticated hoax ever that that basically tricked forensic experts from John McDowell who run he just won the the greatest award in forensics you could win or whatever the

Grand Wall Award who is the president of the American Forensics Scientific Association or whatever in the US. Jim Caruso is the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver. The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz, so he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association, and the head of the Mexican Navy forensics, this guy named Dr. Jose Salze.

All of these guys have seen so I think we're gonna get in ahead of ourselves Let's explain to people this thing if you stand alone because a lot of you like what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, there are these very small mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a Similar kind of thing to a human being but varies enough that you know it's not us and it has more ribs it is more spinal columns or more more more discs this is what they look like and there's x-rays of them and that's where it gets really weird and they're tridactyl right so they have three fingers and three toes.

Yep. And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro who goes by Mario. And this is one of the headaches about the case is like we don't have good provenance on it. So he is this walkerro gravedigger guy, and they were found in Diatomaceous Earth. So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies. Diatomaceous earth is a desiccant and so they were dried out and a lot of the organs are actually still inside the the bodies and there are three different types. There are S types which are these

little winged creatures. There are J types. The J types are probably they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost Close Encounters. Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that Peru's Congress, like right there. Like that thing looks like this like jokey, like Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Like it looks like totally fake, right? So that's, those are the J types. They're like 25 ish, maybe 25 to 30 of those. But then there is the ones that they've x-rayed and that's where it gets really weird The weirdest ones that I was talking about the forensics people kind of evaluating are These M types these are like four to five feet they Look pretty anatomically consistent. Have you seen them in person? I have really yeah, and what was your feeling? My feeling was it was this those images up, please it was as with a lot of these things oscillating between holy shit

This thing is not from here, and then dude you have to like chill and like there's so many other things You know there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to actually, you know, verify this stuff. See if you can get that, go to the x-rays, Jamie, find the images from the x-rays. That's one, but there's one that's a little bit better because it's one of the fetal position. It's, uh... Jamie, in my document, actually. Yeah, look at that one. Okay, there you go.

So that one has eggs inside of it. What? If you go... Yeah, Montserrat. Which is... Look at its hips. Yeah. How weird. So if you go to the Montserrat clip, yeah. So this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it. What? Yeah. How many of these do they have? What they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it.

How many of these do they have? So they have eight to 10 of these M types, these kind of most realistic looking ones. Eight to 10? Eight to 10. And then they have 25 to 30 of the J types. So yeah, look at that. That's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan.

So they have teeth. That's weird. They have teeth, yeah. They have tendons, they have bones, they have What? So they have teeth. That's weird. They have teeth. Yeah. They have tendons, they have bones, they have cartilage, they have organs. And so this is where we need to verify stuff. They even have actually... Could you go back to the part of the video where... What's that? Yeah, that part. What the fuck is that, man? That's crazy. They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century this is

Art if someone made this I need to buy one You need to tell me how much this costs I need to put it on my table because you're a genius if you've made that you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real You're a goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people well, so then the alternative is that's real well. That's real That's completely insane Joe fortunately and unfortunate fortunately for you Maybe but unfortunately for the case these walk arrows these gravediggers are Selling some of these things on the black market and this case is the wild wild west it is so much I Much I've heard seven figures seven figures. I've heard a lot of money

She's the lease but Peter teal buying one of these don't say yes Look at that thing it's why so crazy, but there are serious problems I can I want to caveat all of this and like, you know I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this if it's a hoax It's the best hoax ever right is the best my friend Michael Mazzola who like kind of rolled the red carpet down allowed me To even see these things. He's making a video Making a documentary on this That's coming out this August and it's called this is not a hoax

I told them to put in parentheses or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever. Because the DNA testing sucks. There's no signal, the signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA. How come? Because there was probably human contamination. Like the NCBI, which is this like biotech repository

where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria, this is all publicly available. They've done analysis on this. And like the camp that is very pro, you know, these being alien is this guy Jaime Masson. And he is, I actually think he's awesome, I love him. He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico,

and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies. He's very open about like, we just need more scientific research. You know, he wants more eyes on this thing. But some of the genetics, you know, some of the genetics researchers that they're basing the stuff on, I spoke to one of them, this guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ronhell. And he's a biologist. I don't think he's actually a geneticist.

And his belief is like, he was like, this is, you know, there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA that we don't know. And then in the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar, and then you have DNA from a parasite in Africa, and you also have bonobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off.

So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that like a hominid species, an early hominid species, went from Asia to Africa and because there's some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species, maybe it was East Asia, so it's already like kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever, and then had sex with this like primate thing and you end up with this hybrid. And then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like there's

actually like transmission of, you know, beings from Africa to South America. I don't believe that. That's it's crazy. It's like saying the you know, the Pangolin theory is better than the you know, the the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor that's not real. Well we do know that there were other types of hominids that coexisted with human beings. Denisovans. Yeah the Flora's people the other hobbit people. What is the carbon dating on these things? Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago which

would actually be Incan that would be because Incan started in like 1450 and then all the way down to 800, 1800 years ago which is the Nazca people. That's what's fascinating because you know there's this there's this mystery of the Hobbit people right where they they didn't really think that that was, there's a lot of speculation that it was some bizarre type of human being that was deformed and tiny, and then they realized like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain, just like Denisovan, just like Neanderthal. There's a thing called the Orang Pendek. Have you ever heard of that? No.

What is that? They think, I believe it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, where people talk about these little tiny hairy people that live in the jungle. Whoa. And so these Flores things,

there's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive. Interesting. They think even on the island of Flores, they might still be alive. What? Yeah. Are you serious island of Flores, they might still be alive. What?

Yeah. Are you serious? Right. So if they're alive, if this turns out to be true, like let's imagine it is. Because there's been things like the Coelacanth, which they thought were extinct for millions of years, and then they caught one.

And they're like, oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and it's still alive. And now they know that there's a population of them. But this is the deep ocean, right? Much less explored. But when you look at Indonesia, when you look at Flores, the island of Flores, look at all these places, like, you're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited. So maybe, like, and these things used to live on that island for sure. We've got bones

We know they lived we know they use tools. We know they probably had language. They lived on that island They might still be alive. So we didn't know about these things and I think was it the 90s I think when they discovered them Dennis Ovens, I think was like 2010 and then this new species the big-headed people, were they Juliennes? What were they called? That's it. That's like a few months ago.

They found these. And this is another type of human being. So what are the odds that there's some three-footed, three-toed thing that existed a few thousand years ago. And there are pictoglyphs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru. So this is one that looks fake as fuck, but this guy is driving in his motorcycle and he's filming and he claims that he got this thing running away. No way, a little hairy thing? Yeah, you could see as he's riding his motorcycle, this thing like darts across the road in front of him.

And this is a few years ago too, where CGI sucked. So there it is. You could see it real briefly for a second, it just runs across the road, look at that. Oh my God. What is that? I don't know. But if this thing did exist at one point in time,

I mean, God damn, it looks good. If it did exist at one point in time and people do see it all the time, there might be a small population of them that are still alive. That thing, the X-ray of it, the MRI the CAT scan looked human but weird Yes But the teeth and the jaw it looked like a deformed human and it is important to note that there were skull

Elongation rituals going on as early as the Paracas people which were pre the Nazca people. What were they imitating? That's the interesting question what the Nazca lines? Why are they making they probably humans that made these things, but they're things that only make sense from an aerial view. And they're miles long. And they're miles long. What are you doing? And there are pictoglyphs, cave art, all over the region

with three-fingered beings, with tridactyl beings. Are there really? There are, and this is the weirdest thing. There's a guy named Thierry Amin, who was like the first Westerner he's this French kind of he's an amazing archaeologist and explorer and he was the first guy that met Leandro that the Grave digger who found the bodies to begin with he

Calke is the actually like local dialect there that's spoken he says that the name of the general region means Laboratory for insemination and cloning In cal key yeah, what so like I have I need to corroborate this like I don't have the skills to do that But like that's what he says. It's crazy. What the fuck? I know I know but then holy shit why this case is such a headache is like there's this guy Steve Mara Who I think is a totally he's a UFO researcher. He's the one of the less mushy brained UFO researchers There's a lot of mushy brained UFO researchers really smart guy

I've like quoted him a lot of my other videos and he he's like, we looked at one of the M types, one of the bigger ones that I'm still hooting out hope for, because I'd love it to be real. And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges, and one came back male, one came back female. And so he was like, I think they were constructed. But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts?

So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal. And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion. The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masson, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina,

the one that looked like kind of close encounters with the third time in front of the Mexican Congress, this guy named Manuel Caseras, who was an artist who was making renditions of the things with like woods and sticks and stuff glued together, he was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada,

and there were Reuters picked this up saying, this is all fake because of these fake, and I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with Where he goes this was art. Yeah, we dub it, but he goes this was art. It's crazy So like so that's the signals crossed the signals crossed and I think if there's anything about this case It's like let's get our best and brightest on and figure it out I think we can figure out quickly if we had the right research and there are all these Interpol laws like you can't move the bodies from Peru and it's crazy. Well, even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean that just if that's a different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough.

I agree. That there's like three-fingered, three-toed people that live? Totally. With a weird shaped head? And if you find, if there is phenotypic inheritance, where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, this is the, how can he hoax that? How can he hoax that? That's crazy.

So, and he's, Zolce, who by the way, is the head of the Mexican medical Navy, he was thrown in jail for supporting this case because they were like, we don't wanna be associated with this and now the new secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back and he's sort of being vindicated. But he is like, I was like, Jose, like if you showed this cat skin image

of the baby Tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case. Would they say it had three fingers? He goes yes So if that's the case, I think that is a big deal But then you have the Steve Marat thing and so I just I don't want to come out fully, you know I don't know course course. Yeah, of course, but I Mean how much evidence would there be? This is the problem with fossils, right?

How much evidence would there be? This is the problem with fossils, right? Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance, you know, like something unusual has to occur. You gotta get trapped in mud. Right. You know, that's how... so most of the things that have lived, we don't have fossils of. Which is, if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans, and some of them are like that and They just died off like 500 years ago

And these years ago and these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine We preserved their organs and their whole body just from an anthropology perspective. That should be the most fascinating thing But it's got the stink of a hoax on it, so people don't wanna go and study it. Yeah, totally. Part of what I almost wanna do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show. Where I'm like, I see so many cases like this where I'm like, if we just had some money.

And it's like so important for humanity, right? And it's like nonprofit, it's just, let's just pay to get the best people. I think like one of the problems with modernity is like the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems. We're building $15 billion particle accelerators. People are stuck in string theory.

We're like debating all this dumb shit. And you have these things. I don't know if they're real. You can debunk it, fine. But if they're real and it's not 0% that they're real according to these forensic experts, let if they're real and it's not zero percent that they're real according to these forensic experts Let's pour some resources into it. Yeah, it might be real They look real. They look kind of real. They look very real when I was in person

I was freaking I was like what I said if that's art Whoever made it is fucking incredible. That's art Yeah, you know you'd have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy and then alter it and then make it uniform so you do multiple versions of these things. Go back to that image again, Jamie, the one you just showed me. Look at that head, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That looks like a fucking alien. It totally looks like an alien. The one other weird wrench that I we should mention is There's a proteomics expert who wants to remain anonymous because I think he doesn't want to be associated with the stigma of this case He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J types now I don't think the J types the things that were rolled out in from the Mexican Congress are necessarily real I think maybe they were made an homage to these things that do look more real.

And he found alpaca proteins on them. And so that's another important point that is a little fly in the ointment here. So somebody probably made fake ones too. But if there's a market where you can get seven figures for a real one, of course someone's gonna make some fake ones. Totally.

100%. Yeah. But at the end of the day, what is that and why do they have three fingers? The Lazar Craft, didn't it have some sort of an indentation for hands? It did. Yeah, I think it did. And didn't have three fingers? Oh, I don't know.

Did it? That would be wild. I don't know. I think it did. Oh my Oh, I don't know, did it? That would be wild, I don't know. I think it did. Oh my God. I think it did. And I think it was really small, just like these things are.

We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience. What if that's it? That's crazy. And also, here's the thing. We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet. It might be from here. Howell Puthoff noted that on your show.

He has a paper called the Solarian Hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas Impact or other things like that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever. Break off civilization. Just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding. There you go. killed all the dinosaurs or whatever. What if- Break off civilization. Exactly. Just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding.

There you go. Right? Like the underground, those tunnels and caverns in Turkey where they have this immense underground civilization or city rather. And it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something. Right.

And that's what they think it was. Yeah. So imagine if there's some break off civilization where they lived, I mean, we're talking hundreds of some break-off civilization where they lived I mean we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us and you know sometimes they come visit Could be man could be just one reason why they come out of the ocean a lot and totally they're transmedium and like In some sense you would care way more about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like don't destroy your plant Don't destroy our planet. Yeah, you're here kill us about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like, don't destroy your planet, don't destroy our planet.

We're here. You'll kill us too, you stupid. Also, you're dropping nukes in the ocean. The Marshall Islands test. Exactly. That's nuts. Really nuts. And I think, yeah, there's a whole other rabbit hole.

I don't know if you want to get in. See if you can find out if the Babel czar ones had handprints for three There's a hand scanner. He talked about but it wasn't about three fingers. No the hand scanner was that Los Alamos I typed in Babel czar UFO three fingers AI says his claims Have nothing to do with aliens. What did he say? the controls for the vehicle? Because there's something about putting your hands on something.

I believe there's something. Element 115. Didn't it say something about controls like that there what did the inside of the craft look like inside of craft so that's Jeremy Corbell I could skip through that out lines okay god I want to say that they had three fingers that would be wild. I'll be fucking insane because they're tiny they have three fingers. That's these things He said the seats were very small. Yeah. Yeah, they're supposed to like three feet tall or four feet tall That's these things there you go. That's these things. Yeah, and they're in the cave art. It looks like they're flying It's like hard to say is on caves or whatever. I want to see that. Yeah. Yeah

There's yeah, you can do try dactyl cave art How weird and how old is this cave art? I? Think it's dates to the Nazca period so around that time see let's go look up that first You did Tridactyl cave art How weird it's all so fucking weird man How weird it's also fucking weird man. Yeah, it's so weird. It's so weird It's cuz it's almost almost like reality is fucking with you. Yeah It is and you have like the Amazon is there's probably one in my dock Jamie that I sent you

There's three Three fingers and three toes. That's crazy. Yeah. Textile fragments. Yeah. Wow! Circa 1000 AD. Yeah, it's like all over. Whoa! Yeah. Three fingers, three toes, big crazy head,

weird eyes. How fucking strange, man. So nuts. There's so much we don't know, and everyone's scared of being ridiculous. I know. You know, everyone's scared. This is one of the great things about what you do

and what I do is we don't have to worry about being ridiculous. Totally. Because we just are. Yeah, and we don't have to be like, we have credentials. Right, right, right, right. Just being normal.

We don't have to worry about being taken seriously. Yeah. Because so many people do worry about it, and they don't want to stick their neck out But when you see something like this the three fingers three toes artwork from a thousand fucking years ago Yeah, and it looks really weird and then you see these things like hey is that real totally and discoveries require boldness they require like just going for it, and it's it's Yeah, it's a little this like kind of

nitpicky credentialism of like I can't I can't say anything other than the establishment what is your incremental addition then to human knowledge right and when faced with undeniable evidence will you relent will you give in or will you just like will you just like dig your heels in forever and claim bullshit till the till you drop off the face the earth like what's going on with Egypt you know like you know and when I had Zahi Hawass on and he's just completely unwilling to look at that what is it tomography the data that shows that there might be something underneath the pyramids right this is bullshit.

Is it a sure? How do you know? You don't even understand the science. How can you possibly know? No first principles arguments around it. It's just, no, it can't be or whatever. It's politics. Science is supposed to be the most immune from politics and it's the most political

thing. That's weird. It is weird. When you find that out, it's so disappointing. It's's the most political thing. That's weird. It is weird. When you find that out, it's so disappointing. It's so disillusioning. It's so disappointing. Totally. And then when you have these scientists that like dismiss people and they immediately start

using terror, look at this one. That's so wild. Wow. This, whatever that thing is around it has like one arm with three and then one arm with three and one foot with three and one foot with three. Wow. This three and one foot with three whoa wow what is that supposed to be representing two heads i don't know there's a couple other things on the other page i had two edits the cats maybe two heads but no eyes how weird is that like what is that big eye one eye here one eye here two eyes or maybe that's it inside something that it controls you know i'm saying a little sports model right what's showing the fingers meaning like the fingers or what?

Operates this thing here. Are you seeing? Yeah, this is so nuts man. It's so great all three fingers like what are the fucking odds of that? Yeah Yeah, what are the odds that this is a thousand years old these images and this these textiles and then you find This stuff totally like what and it's in the mythology right? Yeah, the fuck is going on man. I know it's so frustrating Jesse I'm with you man, and the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent We have to like light our it and like under state. We're finding cities every day Right we need to do the research. Yeah, we do we do Look at more of these more three finger ones. God so weird

Yeah, so weird Almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke. Yeah Does thing that was on a petroglyph? Yeah, and Luke who? Hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show. He's been on. I know. He was amazing. He was fantastic.

He was so good. He will say, like he's been everywhere, right? And like, he's always like, Peru is the weirdest place I always go. Really? So. Wow. Yeah.

Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in. I fucking love your show. It's so good Excellent American Alchemy. It's on YouTube is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube like how do they find the channel Jesse Michaels on YouTube? I have a WAP which is where we it's called whop it's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff. I don't know. I don't sleep. This must absorb, because your stuff is really well produced. It must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that. Honestly, I'm burnt out. Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I really appreciate you. I appreciate you. Everybody go watch it. Go check out the channel. It's fantastic. If they want to find you on social media, what is your? social media Jesse Michaels official on Instagram. No, I mean American. No way. Thank you vain in my existence

Yeah, I'm sure call back in the day All right. Well, thank you so much. It was fun. Joe. I appreciate you get some diamond more shit's gonna come out. Hopefully let's do it I'm awesome. Thank you. Bye everybody