The Joe Rogan Experience - #2348 - Lukas Nelson

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Lukas Nelson is a country music singer/songwriter and Grammy Award-winning producer. His new album, “American Romance,” is available now.www.lukasnelson.com The ultimate wireless hack. Make the switch at https://visible.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe Rogan Podcast, checking out the Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. We're up. Lucas, what's up? Good to talk to you, man. Thanks for being here. Thank you for being here. Yeah, I appreciate you having me. I got to tell you, you know, when I heard Willie Nelson's kid plays music there's a thing that you always do and I have to admit it you do it you like when the son of a great man you always assume well yeah he's probably mediocre you know I mean and then you performed at McConaughey's that charity function thing and you fucking

killed it man you blew me away it was incredible and I was like wow it was really cool to see man it was really exciting it was really fun you know you were the highlight of the night man you really were it's moments like those where I started to gain confidence you know I'd have over the years, I'd go out and play, and I'd play my songs that I've written, and you know, I'd get crowds that would do that, you know, and so that gave me the confidence to keep going. And I first started playing music in order to get closer to my father. Oh, wow. You know what I mean? So I he would be gone all the time, right? And I'd be missing him and

and So in order to get close to him, I figured I need to speak the same Musical language and and so I learned young and I wrote a song young That's on the new album actually I got it's called you were it's the first song I ever wrote when I was 11 It's on the new album actually I got called You or It. It's the first song I ever wrote when I was 11. Wow. And my dad loved it so much that he covered it at the time. And he put it out on his album back in 2004.

Called It Always Will Be. The album was called It Always Will Be. And that gave me the confidence at a young age. Chris Christopherson came up to me and he's like, man, you don't have a choice but to be a songwriter. And so I had all this inspiration at a young age. Chris Christopherson came up to me and he's like, man, you don't have a choice but to be a songwriter. And so I had all this inspiration at a young age, kind of like an athlete at a certain point, you kind of have to look at like, oh, well, if I have a talent at this, I have connections in the industry, I need to work like I was going to go to the Olympics on this because it's something that I can do that will

Make it so that I never have to rely on my family or my father for anything, right? You know, I yeah my whole goal in life Is to discover who I am as an individual, you know Is that a part of the difficulty of growing up with an incredibly famous father? I think the, you know, Victor Frankl has a book, a very famous book called Man's Search for Meaning. And it's about Auschwitz, and he was an Auschwitz survivor and he wrote about what was the common denominator in terms of people who persevered and survived in these camps.

And dignity and meaning were the common denominators generally. And so finding what you mean in this life to yourself doesn't have to mean anything to anyone else. And I think that's where, for me, I've lived my whole life trying to discover who I meant to myself so that being the child of someone who's incredibly famous at a thing that you're trying to do. You know, like there's a lot of sons of athletes, for instance, that live in their father's shadow and very few of them ever rise to the level that their father was at. Sure. I think for me, I was never trying to be as great as him. I was only trying to be close to him because more than anything, my

father is a great human being. He's a well-rounded, kind, empathetic human. And I'm truly grateful to be his and my mother's son. You know, because I have a good family, I'm lucky. That's awesome. I have a good parent, so what I was trying to do was just be closer to him. And as a little kid, the best thing my mom ever did was when I was like earlier, I was probably five or six years old and my brother had just passed away

not too long before this actually. And I would cry every time my dad would leave, you know. And my mom sat me down one time and she said, it tears him apart when you cry like this because he doesn't want to leave. He's going out there, he's making people happy, he's giving people joy and he's doing what he came here on this earth to do. And he's giving people joy, and he's doing what he came here on this earth to do, and he's supporting this family. And so the support that my mother had for

him, at that moment I never cried again. I was able to let go of that idea and then just from that point on work towards creating what would make me happy in my life and give me the same joy and then give me and be able to take care of a family hopefully. You know, one of my greatest sources of pride is that I haven't had to ask my parents for anything. I bought my own house. I bought my, you know, I went and did Starsborne and I got, you know, I mean, I've been able to make myself a living and I think that makes my parents proud, it makes my dad proud and that's what I've always wanted to do. That's been my whole life, is wanting to make them proud. That's awesome. Well, it's a great motivation, you know, for sure, especially when you have

great parents to try to make them proud of you. I'm lucky in that way. You know, I know a lot of people have broken homes and grew up, and even I caught dad at a good time. I mean, my dad was 55 or so when he had me, you know, and so he had already been through a lot of his demons and gotten through them and faced them and was still going through them at the time that I was born, but he had come out of a life of habit and sort of formed the ones that would take him at that point to where he is now at 92 years old. And so I got a good version of dad, you know, who had grown since, you know, and so, man, you know, I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I feel like I, you know, I was able to be

exposed to a lot of great music, a lot of great mentors, you know, in my life. And, to a lot of great music, a lot of great mentors, you know, in my life. And I'm also lucky that I, at a young age, I'm grateful to my younger child, to myself as a young child, for having the wisdom to say, all right, work hard now, forget about parties, forget about hanging out, work hard eight hours, ten hours a day, practice your guitar, write all the time, sing all the time, so that when you get to a certain point in life you'll have something to show for it, you know, something you can leave behind that's yours. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome man. You know, that's what most people in this life want. They want a purpose. They want something that means something both to them and to other people. Exactly. Yeah. It's hard to find. It's hard to find a purpose.

That is something that I've always had growing up and I think it's because I was, again, I'm grateful to that younger kid. Sometimes I feel like he's wiser than I am now. You know, that younger self is like, almost, you know, and now that I'm sober, I quit smoking weed, I quit drinking and you know. When did you do all that? Really around the pandemic. Yeah? But.

That's usually when a lot of people started. Yeah, I went the opposite way. I started meditating twice a day, you know, the only thing I'll do now is mushrooms every once in a while to check in with myself and just kind of make sure that I'm, I feel like mushrooms is like taking a nice good hose to your soul and just kind of like, you know. Yeah, clean out all the bullshit. Clean out all the bullshit.

Yeah. I feel like, you know. So. They should be legal. Yeah, 100%. Really, if I could talk Trump into one thing, that might be the one thing. I had this conversation with Paul Stamets the other day. I love Paul Stamets.

He's amazing. Yeah, he's great. I just saw him at the Dead Show, the Sphere show. Oh, yeah? Oh, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Have you been to his place?

He invited me to his place up there. No. It's supposed to be amazing. I was just reading an email from him today, inviting me to his place. That's awesome. Yeah, he's a prepper. He's ready for the apocalypse. intelligence that helps to create a bespoke digital identity to the seamless payment options that can help give your customers more ways to pay or the fact that you can measure your end-to-end online performance with powerful website and seller analytics. The reasons to power your website with Squarespace are endless.

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I mean, maybe. I don't know. I think we're going to be okay. I do too. I do. I mean, I think the feeling that we might not be okay, though, is a great motivator. We should always be checking in with ourselves and asking ourselves, are we going too far to certain extremes?

Yeah. Well, that was the part of the conversation that we had, you know We're like if is there a thing that could really help the world and it sounds so cliche and hippie and and Especially someone who's never done mushrooms, but I think that might be the thing, you know Even if it's just like small doses just a little something to alleviate anxiety bring people closer together Make them understand that there's more to life than conflict and bullshit. And most of your conflict is bullshit. Most of it is nonsense.

Most of it's unnecessary. Yeah, my dad always says 99% of the things you worry about never come true. You know, and it's just a matter of... Yeah, I mean, it is sort of a cliché. I read The Power of Now, which is Eckhart Tolle, when I was like 13. I went to school next to a Buddhist temple. And so I grew up with my dad teaching me the Lord's Prayer, I'd say, every night. And then I'd go to this Buddhist temple and hang with these monks, you know.

Really? Yeah, yeah. Where is that? In Maui. I grew up part-time in Austin. I was born in Austin. I was in Maui. And so I… There's a Buddhist temple in Maui?

There's a Buddhist temple right near where I was going to school at the time. So after school every day I'd sit with these monks. And just the vibe of that is powerful, the chanting, the energy around that, you know, the presence though that they have. They're just, you know, their whole goal obviously is to just you know be purely present yeah and and so while that sounds like a cliche I truly believe that that's an important thing you know to to let go of the the battle of positive and negative that in the mental space that's all that exists is duality, you know

Well to find a true path You have to avoid being pushed and pulled in a bunch of directions that are totally unnecessary Yeah, and sometimes you get sort of preoccupied or Captivated by the push in the pole of bullshit. Well, and we're We there is a manipulation that happens on purpose. I have a song called Turn Off the News and Build a Garden. Mmm.

Did you ever hear that song? No, I haven't heard that one. You want me to play it for you? Fuck yeah, yeah, play it. Alright. This is a song called Turn Off the News and Build a Garden. And I wrote it because... Because it's great advice.

Yeah, and I just, I was just, the news cycle, I mean, there's a difference between being informed and being constantly captured by the cycle. Overwhelmed. Yes. ["Turn Off the News and Build a Garden"] Let's see. Got a tune for all your listeners.

I believe that every heart is kind Some are just a little underused Hatred is a symptom of the times lost in these uneducated blues. I just want to love you while I can. All these other thoughts have me confused I don't need to try to understand Maybe I'll turn off the fucking news Turn off the news and build a garden Just my neighborhood and me We might feel a bit less hardened, we might

feel a bit more free. Turn off the news and raise the kids, give them something to believe in. Teach them how to be good people, give them hope that they can see. Hope that they can see. Hope that they can see. Turn off the news and build a garden with me. That's awesome. Yeah, so I've always felt that way and I think that there's action is so important being a part of your community being a part of decisions that are made I think that's huge I think local communities are really important I think local town meetings understanding

where you're going yeah you know and and understanding where your neighborhood is going and getting to know your neighbors because it's really hard to it's hard to have any hatred when you understand and know your neighbor you know what I mean and you know the people that are around you know it you know and so I think that yeah that's kind of where I come from I just think like you know it's important to to get out there and and I put my I usually try not to stand on soap boxes though, you know, man, I put, if I have something to say, I'll put it in my music, you know, and I'll, and I'll put it out there. Well, that's the best way to get it to people

anyway. Yeah, look at Bob Dylan, Masters of War. I mean, that's the military industrial complex right there. That's an incredible song. Only a pawn in their game is the history of racism and how that started. It is pretty much a controlled political ploy to get the poor blacks and the poor whites to blame each other for everything happening. You ever hear a Bill Hicks bit about the news? I was just listening to Bill Hicks. That's so funny. He's got that great bit about the news like war, famine, disease, AIDS, you go

outside, chirp chirp chirp, where the fuck is all this shit happening? I think Ted Turner's making this shit up because his wife won't fuck him. Well, you know, look, I think it's out there. I think it's always been out there. But I think the way to combat it is to build strong local community, you know, and build, you know, that's why I think regenerative farming is really important and trying to, and then, you know, voting for people that will support local agriculture and properly grown food and properly sourced food and these things are very important, you know. Yeah, that's certainly important for our community if you know exactly where your food's coming from.

I think we're just so, it's not, you know, in the Bill Hicks days, it was just the news. But now, I think the real problem that people have today is social media. If I post things, I just post them and then get out of there. I don't read anything. I very rarely read social media anymore. Since making that decision to kind of stay away from it I think occasionally I have to dip in just to see what what's because I'm a comedian It's part of the problem. You gotta know and I need to know what people are doing. Why everyone's so mad what's happening?

but um There's too many people that are on it All day long and I think it's poison. I really do. I think it's bad for your mind. I think it generally attracts negativity. I think most of the stuff that people post is negative and they're complaining all the time and then that gets into your mind and that gets into your whatever, you know, your headset is, your headspace and then you start thinking the way these people are thinking. I like to be informed on what I'm talking about, you know. I really do and that takes a lot of time.

Yeah. It's not something that I can look at something online that comes up and just have an immediate opinion on. Sure. And I think that really I'm just like I don't know where I stand on half the issues that are out there because I'm just like I I don't know where I stand on half the issues that are out there because I'm You know, I see a lot of I have to sift through most of the bullshit I'm like so really where it ends up happening is is that by the time I get to the voting booth I'm hoping that I'm properly informed, you know Yeah, it's hard to be properly informed because it's hard to know who's telling the truth

It is like if you pay attention this big beautiful bill that just got passed, I've been trying to sort out what's real and what's not. And the real fear that people have is Medicaid, right? The real fear is that people are going to lose access to healthcare. But then there was this just giant arrest where they found billions of dollars of fraud and hundreds of people were arrested. Doctors, healthcare providers, you know about all that, right Jamie? You saw that big arrest?

It's, you know, so it's like- I saw something, but I just don't know enough. Yeah, I don't know enough either. So they're trying to eliminate fraud as a part of this. But the consequences of that is like, well, okay, but is this going to affect poor people? Is this going to affect legitimate poor people that just need help? To me, that's the most important thing. National healthcare fraud takedown results in 324 defendants charged in connection with

over 14.6 billion in fraud. Largest Justice Department health care fraud takedown in history. More than doubles prior record of six billion. Wow. That's a government website right? Mm-hmm. I don't know. You know I just don't know and I don't know enough and I know that there's probably more to the story than we're seeing. Oh yeah for sure right. You know that there's probably more to the story than we're seeing. Oh yeah, for sure, right. And so, you know, that's kind of how, like, controlled opposition works, too. You know, you just sort of, you know.

Says Medicare Medicaid Services also announced it successfully prevented over $4 billion from being paid in response to false and fraudulent claims, and that it suspended or revoked the billing privilege of 205 providers of the month leading up to the takedown civil charges against 20 defendants for $14.2 million in alleged fraud as well as civil settlements with over 106 defendants totaling at $34.3 million. Well, I'll have to do some research. Or not.

Well, that's the thing. I'm a musician, man. This episode is brought to you by Visible I want to let you in on something Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible Because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage Without the premium cost With Visible you get one line wireless with unlimited data No nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost.

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whether it's a class issue or it's a, you know, I just see that there's a lot of people who don't have a lot of money who are suffering. And there's a lot of people getting caught in crossfire all over the world. And it's a humanitarian issue, you know. And I think, you know, and so, you know, I, as a musician, I have a responsibility to observe. I think as an artist, I have a responsibility to do that. As a human. As a musician, I have a responsibility to observe. I think as an artist, I have a responsibility to observe. As a human. As a human. Yeah, I think we all have a responsibility to observe.

And I also don't like to keep my opinion resolute. I don't like to identify with my opinion, meaning like I'm not joining any teams here. You know? Great. I don't have any teams. I wanna know what, based on, if I get conflicting information, I have to make a decision on which one's going to sway the decisions I make going forward. You know, it's tough.

It's not easy. It is. In this world, it's really not easy. But back in the day, interestingly, I think they had more of an ability to manipulate us back in the day because we only had one or two sources of information. Oh, no doubt. No doubt. Well, listen, as confusing and as frustrating as social media is and as dangerous as it

is for your psyche, it's better. It's better to have it than to not have it. Because you don't have to listen to it. You don't have to go on it. And that's what I always tell people, stay off it. But it's there for you if you need it. Like when shit pops off in the world, it's the best source of information.

I Google things all the time and they're not there. And then I'll go to X and they're there immediately. When something happens in the world, it's on X before it's on anywhere else Well, there's a lot of platforms. I'm sure that yeah that that Google is yeah But the thing is X is immediate right? It's people that are on the ground and people that are experienced an independent journalist to use it more often than anything else That you're staying and sub stack. Yeah, I think that, you know, I think the only thing that I think I worry about with

that is that the pendulum swings so far in either direction in response to certain things. Sure. In response to perceived censorship in one way, then it becomes, instead of it being completely a platform of opinions, then censorship happens on that side with dissenting opinions. And so I think that the censorship just continues to be like, okay, well, it just goes back and forth. And so I have a hard time understanding, and that's why I don't really feel like I have an ability to form a proper opinion on a lot of this shit. Well that's an intelligent perspective because the reality is

so many people that have really strong opinions aren't informed. Well that's the thing and I see people that die on certain hills and then you know but with no ability to formulate like that's why I'm a musician you know that's why I do what I do here, because I, you know, all I do is, you know, I err on the side of compassion. And I think, you know, I'm compassionate for people who are suffering. I, you know, I have compassion for suffering. I believe that, I believe that empathy can be manipulated but I don't believe that it's I think it's a necessary emotion yes for cooperation and human condition that's a great way to put it you know because empathy can be manipulated it

can be manipulated through psychological warfare but I also believe that it's an it's never a good idea to then shut it off shut it%. Well said. Yeah, that's a really good And I also will say this, like, I think throughout history there have been examples where people have put their faith in policy over character. Yeah. And I think that's a mistake. I think the character of the person implementing the policy is just as important as the policy they represent. Yeah, well, you know, and today nothing gets implemented. There's no policy that gets drafted or implemented without a lot of weird influence.

Influence from money. It's always money. And I have no idea the depth of that. So where my truth lies in compassion and in trying to reach the hearts of people and through music. Do you know Daryl Davis? Sure, I've had him on a couple of times. Oh my God. Yeah, he's great. He's amazing. He's a hero of mine.

Yeah, he's an amazing person. What a fearless person to be able to go and sit down with these people and change their hearts. Yeah, hundreds of hundreds of them collecting one on one. Let's tell people what he does. So Darryl is a musician and Darryl through the course of his travels met the it started. He told me the whole story. The first guy he met he didn't really believe him that the guy was actually in the KKK. Darryl is a black man. And so this guy pulls out his KKK. Darrell's a black man. And so this guy pulls out his KKK membership card or whatever the fuck it is, right? And he couldn't believe it.

And he's like, well, you're not like the other ones. And he's like, well, what do you mean? Do you know everyone that's black? Like, what is this? And so he becomes friends with this guy, has dinner at his house. And then the guy gives him over the course of their friendship, gives him his robe. He says, I quit, man. Obviously, what I'm doing is wrong, because you're my best friend.

You know, like, I love you. And so it can't be true that the black man is my enemy if you are such a cool person. Yes. And humans must be allowed to grow. Yes. Yes. to grow. We have to allow people who have made mistakes in their past, we have to suspend judgment enough to allow that person to grow. No question. Because you have to understand what influences was this guy subject to that

led him to join the KKK in the first place. Like what was the community that he was in? What had he been exposed to? Obviously he had never been exposed to anybody like Darrell before he met him. So he meets Darrell and then changes his ways. Who knows if that guy grew up with cool parents in a different community, he would have been a different person.

100% were products of how we were brought up. Yes. For the most part. Our life experiences and what we've learned and the paths we've taken. Yeah. And you know, and you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of that going on. I mean, I'm from Texas and I've toured the South and I know how that is. And there's a lot of people that grow up being indoctrinated. Uh-huh. Yeah. And in, in, with really with really not good ideas. But they don't know until they're able to...

That's what I was saying earlier about, you know, that's what music does. I love a great example. Paul Simon played a show in South Africa just after apartheid he when he did the Graceland album, right? He went down there and he worked with local African musicians and Created in my opinion one of the greatest albums of all time I mean with ladies Smith black Mombazo doing the vocals on that and the incredible Vincent and we need the most incredible musicians. And at the time, that was a culturally powerful thing because there's a show online, you can

watch it. There's a, you should probably pull it up. It's amazing. There's like Paul Simon playing for tens of thousands of black and white people in, right after apartheid ends, or you may even leave during apartheid, and they're all dancing and bobbing up and down. It's the most joyful thing ever. Music is powerful. It can bring people together. But because what it does is it reaches everybody's heart and it cuts through all the bullshit, the mind stuff, you know, and everyone can relate to having their heart broken.

You know, maybe it happened for some at a young age, maybe it happened, maybe some people had their heart broken at age four to the point where they closed their hearts off nearly completely. But even Darth Vader had a little bit. You know what I mean? Darth Vader, you know, everyone forgets that Darth Vader, at the end of Star Wars redeemed himself. It's the Carl Jung, the archetype, right? The dark knight of the soul and being able to come through that. And really, you can judge, you can not want to to be around like I think Carl Jung actually talks about like there are certain people and things that you can't allow to exist because

They're dangers to everyone else, but at the same time you don't have to judge their humanity Right you just like it's like a wasp you have to swat the wasp because it's gonna sting you But you know or or you know however you feel about that you can put it outside But you get it or however you feel about that, you can put it outside, but you get it away, right? Right. You know, but you don't call the Wasp evil. Right. There are people that have just been corrupted for whatever reasons to the point where you just need to remove them from the situation. But I don't, I try not to have hatred towards that. I just sort of understand that they are where they are in their lives and

they got there for some reason. It's a cautionary tale for everyone. That's the thing about today's access to information is you could see so many different cautionary tales. You could see so many different people that went down the absolute wrong road. And you get to see them and you get to shine a light on them in this very strange time, and you get to see, like this is, you could have been that person. Anybody could have been that person. We're all easily, we have so many similarities, all of us do. And we have to recognize that your unique situation in life, your unique community, family, life experiences, all the things you've gone through that made you who you are today didn't have to be that

way. You could have been in the worst circumstances, and there's people that are in the worst circumstances, and they're a product of that. And that's the weirdness of life. There's not necessarily good and evil. There's good and evil results. But humans inherently... We have both inside.

We have both inside. We're the yin and the yang. I think you need that, unfortunately, too. We need to know that that exists in order to grow. When people ask, you know, and I'm a very lucky human. So like, I say all these things with hopefully the right perspective that I am, as far as I'm in like the top 1% of the luckiest people, or even the higher than that. You know, with access to clean water, I don't have to worry about when I'm pulled over being shot. I don't, you know, there's not, there are a lot of things that I can be very grateful for. And so when I make

comments about these things, you know, I can only come from my own perspective. Pete Slauson Yeah, of course, but I do believe that We all have the light and the dark inside us like the story of the the wolf you know the story of the two wolves inside of us and You know which one survives is the one you feed right you have the light wolf in the dark. Well yeah, and they can you just constantly make decisions in order to

feed the right wolf over time. And some people get lost and they start feeding the wrong wolf. And I feel like I've been there before too. I've gone through darkness and come out the other side in my own way, in my own experience, in my own pain, in my own heart, you know, you know, I think the one, that's why I believe it's so important to reach people's hearts and why music is so powerful because we all have a heart, you know, disregarding certain sociopathic people. Yeah. We all, for the most part, for the most part, we all have a heart and so that's where you reach where you reach. And I think sociopaths, that's

on a spectrum too, is what we're hearing. So you have people who can learn sociopathic behavior but aren't necessarily devoid of feeling. Right. There's people that become sociopaths or survive, I bet. Exactly. Absolutely. I'm sure. 100%. Yeah, it's not that clear cut. And to demonize people, that's the instinct, right? That's how wars get started. We other an entire group of humans, they're the other. And I think this is tribal society behavior that developed because at one point in time when you saw someone from another tribe that was invading, they were coming to steal your resources and kill

people. And that's what people did. Yes. And again, that also, there's an exception to that in the sense that, like, for example, in Germany, you know, there were clear-cut decisions that people had to make about survival and about, you know, like, I'm sorry, but the Nazis had to go. Right.

You know, we can't just say that, you know… They're good people. No. Everyone's the same. Yeah. You know, they're so far gone that they just have to go. Yeah. And there are certain examples of that. So it's

not like you don't have to forgive people, you just have to understand them, I think. Yeah, that's why people call that the last great war, or the real war. Because it's like there was such a clear-cut case of good and evil. Yeah, and I mean, look, I think the military industrial complex has been around since even before then. Oh, for sure. Well, Smedley Butler wrote about it in 1933. Yeah.

So, anyways, that's where Bob Dylan comes in, you know, masters of war. Look, man, I'm, again... Well, that's also why mushrooms are illegal. Is it really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, mushrooms were made illegal during the Nixon administration because they wanted to figure out a way to stop the anti-war protests. They wanted to figure out a way, they turned everything schedule one. They took all the psychedelics and lumped them into a schedule one because they wanted to go after civil rights activists and anti-war activists. That was the main

reason, like this is the best way to lock these people up. Hmm well and interestingly Yeah, I mean I think that that You know Right because the thing is is that there are a lot of studies like about marijuana now that say okay It could be harmful right they come out but then at the same time There is out. But then at the same time, the way that that's harmful and then comparatively to the other things that are legal and allowed to just propagate.

Yeah, like whiskey. Or cigarettes. I mean, like, you have, there's obviously a bias against and that you can see clearly and obviously it came from this. Well, it's also who's funding these studies and what did they look for when they're funding these studies and did they have, it was their bias attached to these studies. Like what does this mean? You know, like I know a lot of people who use marijuana, it's not harmful to them at all. So like, did you include those people in that study? Like, and like I know a lot of people who use marijuana. It's not harmful to them at all So like did you include those people in that study? Like and then I know people that use marijuana and it really does over it consumes their life it they over indulge

Yeah, I had to stop What was what was happening with you with it? well I had to stop for many reasons. I wanted to be clear-headed I started exercising a lot. You know, I got my whoop. You know, I got my whoop right here. You know, I started tracking my sleep. Funny enough, the sleep is really what got me the most because every time I'd take a hit or take one drink, my sleep would go to shit. It's amazing when you look at the results.

Oh my God, it was intense. And so, and you know, I started working out heavy and I really, I had a lot of great like, you know, I have a, you know, a high good engine, you know, I'm VO2 and like, I was like, you know, really started to feel like an athlete again. And so I started to feel like an athlete again. I started to feel great. I started to get addicted to the high that I would get saying no of being proud of myself. Having discipline. And having the discipline. I love the high that I get from exercising discipline. I'm addicted to that. That's a good thing to be addicted to. Totally. You get addicted to that feeling that you get that's like... Self-improvement. You know, like Goggins, he talks about, you know, all carrot, no stick, right? Or

all stick, no carrot, can't remember which one it is. Right? But the thing is, is that, for me, the reward is the high that I get from having discipline. And I get a, it's a dopamine hit, And I get a, it's a dopamine hit, you know, and it's, it's just vastly more rewarding than than the whatever temporary thing I'll get from having a drink. I don't know, like, like drinking that much, but smoking weed was cool because it put me into a very, like, creative spot and kind of gave me this surge of inspiration, if you will. But it's bad for my lungs. And there were a lot of ups and

downs emotionally. I'd get high and I'd get low, and I'd get high and I'd get low. And now this clarity that I have is just incredible. It's this steady sort of joy that I have. that I had, because I had to face myself too. When you get clear, you have to, things come up and then you look at them and you're like, and things that you didn't want to look at before, you know. Habits that you had or things in your past that you have to forgive yourself for that you didn't really, they're like floating in the back of your mind is unfinished thoughts. And so without it, all of that masking, I was able to sit and, I mean, look, I was able to sit and write this record, which is the most clear album I've ever, you know, I wanted to know who I was throughout the, without all the, you know, I didn't want to chase a six-minute

guitar solo. I didn't want to chase, I wanted to just figure out who I was stripped away from all that. It's funny, there's this guy Marcus Dowling, he's a writes for the Tennessean and I was sitting talking to him in Nashville and he was, he said that when I put, he had it, he was ready to listen to my record and he was about to have a whiskey. And he, the first song comes up and he puts his whiskey down. He's like, oh, I don't want to drink for this. And I think that music puts you in the state of mind that the artist is in when they recorded it or when they wrote it. So it's kind of almost like interesting that he decided to put his drink down when he heard this out, like the first song, because like, that's where I'm at, you know? And so I wonder if there's that feeling of like this kind of like, it's less of a jam band thing, more of just like straight songs.

There's probably definitely something to that, because I think that's something that happens when someone's on stage performing. It's like you let them take over your mind. You let the music and the song. It's like creating a holographic bubble that you're all participating in this vibe. You were there at the McConaughey thing. It was an electric feeling, right? Yeah, it was pretty wild. It was wild.

Yeah, it was pretty wild. It was wild. Yeah, it was awesome. And I felt like, you know, it was cool to see everyone there and just like, you know, it just felt... There's also like the added thing to that, that, you know, they do that every year and it's a charity. Yeah. And all the money goes to good... You give them back. Yeah. And a lot of charities, like there's like five different charities that. Yeah given to with McConaughey's He's a he's a good guy. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. He's a very wise man He is a lawyer for someone who's an actor, you know Yeah, a lot of them and that's again

That's the thing that I have to get over because I was around so many of them in LA that were fools That I just immediately associate Acting with like these empty vessels that are just struggling for attention and trying to say the things that they think will get them the best spot. Yeah. I think that, look, I mean, to become an entertainer, there's a level of self-absorption that you have to sort of like accept.

All right, I got a big ego. Now can I keep my ego in check for my whole life? I think my dad has. I mean, I see my dad as a great example. I see Paul Simon as a great example. I see Paul Simon is a great example. I see, you know, Neil and you know, I see these people that like That they're just they're just artists through and through you know, I mean, yeah and and you know for for better or worse Not perfect people, but they are who they are and they for the most part. I know my dad

Has an ego but he he has a good relationship with it. Because the ego is just the representation of who we are to the rest of the world, you know. Well, everyone has an ego. Yeah, we all do. And the struggle with the ego is just like the struggle with good and evil. I think part of it is necessary for you to overcome. You need that. You need those. And you also need to see people fall prey to it. We see that a lot. Ren, there's an artist named Ren.

No. Oh man, you'd love his work. He plays guitar and he sings amazing. Spell it? R-E-N. R-E-N? He's from England. He's from Wales.

He's Welsh. And he's, yeah this guy. That dude. Yeah, so he's got a song called. Listen to some of this. High Ren. Listen to High Ren. Yeah, this is the one. Here, put the headphones on. he's yeah this guy yeah so he's got a song called high rent listen to higher end this is the one here put put the headphones on okay I've seen him for a while he's like you start as a busker right one of them dudes at the like subway

station yeah this is a crazy song it's about communicating with your ego. What a weird fucking start to a video. A guy with a pig mask on? Oh man. Hi Wren. So I'm gonna be a good boy. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo periphery, Ren, on your pleas to see me It's been weeks since we spoke, bro, I know you need me You're the sheep on the shepherd, not your place to lead me Not your place to be batting off the hand that feeds me Hi, Ren, I've been taking some time to be distant I've been taking some time to be still I've been taking some time to be by myself

Since my therapist told me I'm ill And I've been making some progress lately And I've learned some new coping skills So I haven't really needed you much man I think we need to just step back and chill Ren you sound more insane than I do you think that those doctors are really there to guide you through this a million times Your civilian mind is so perfect to always be alive to okay taking that the pill boy drown yourself in the sound of white noise Follow this 10-step program rejoice all your problems will be gone fucking dumb boy. No, I mean this time is different man Trust me. I feel like things might be falling in place He just has a whole conversation with his own mind, you know, his own ego.

And it tries to tell him, you know, that he's not worth shit. And then he's like, no, wait, I'm getting myself together. And this whole conversation with him, And then at the end it talks about where good and evil isn't a battle, it's a dance. And no one ever wins, you know, with their battle with their ego. It's always just a dance and it's always just kind of finding balance, you know. And there's a song I have on my album called All God Did, and it's actually the same concept. And I wrote it before I heard that, but then when I heard that, I was like, oh, shit, that's way better.

But it's great, you know, and it's beautifully written. I mean, you know, it's very, you could tell all his influences, and then he just kind of adds onto that, which is... Pete That dance is critical. You need that dance. That dance is... I think this is one of the problems of people that don't exercise. I think the struggle of exercise is oftentimes conflated with vanity. And I don't think it's that. I think you can keep your body covered up to the end of time and never be proud of it, and you will benefit greatly from the struggle of exercise because I think the struggle of exercise is Mental as much as it is physical. There's a dance That's good. Like when I talked to Goggins about it, like he's the most bizarre of all cases because

He's doing it all in silence He's doing it all by himself and occasionally he lets people peer into it But it's going on right now like right now that guy is out there running probably 30 miles today Sure with destroyed knees now. He's a he's a real freak and when I talked to him about he's like I'm downloaded knowledge Hmm. Yeah, that's what he says. That's great He's like I'm in the lab and I'm downloaded knowledge like he's struggling In his own mind every day and forcing himself to do it every day.

And then he brings elite athletes to try to keep up with him occasionally. Like he brought Israel Adesanya. Israel Adesanya is former UFC middleweight champion, like one of the best fighters of all time. And you realize like he can't even keep up with Dave, not even close. This is one of multiple workouts that Dave is doing in a day and this guy can keep can't keep

up with them and Dave's 50. What was the part of the brain that gets yeah enlarged that that Huberman was talking about that gets enlarged when you do things you don't want to do? I always forget the name of it, but Jamie will pull it up. Yeah, the anterior midcorp. I don't know what that is. It should be like an easier name. Cortex anterior, something like that. The discipline part. Yeah, the discipline.

Just call it discipline. It enlarges throughout your life when you do things that you force yourself to do. Yeah, it literally does. It literally gets bigger, which is crazy. You know, being so- What is it, Jamie? The end.

Anterior mid-singular cortex. You got it. Ha, nice. Success. Mid-singulate. Mid-singulate. Mid-singulate cortex, yeah. Shout out to Andrew Huberman.

There you go. Doing things you don't want to do can strengthen your brain, particularly the anterior mid cingulate cortex Which is associated with willpower and tenacity. That's incredible the idea that it actually grows Yeah, you know so willpower is not just a it's not like an airy-fairy concept. It's like a muscle mm-hmm No, it's incredible that willpower can be also can be Enhanced yes that that it it it just goes to

brain plasticity and you know and and and that's a concept that I think a lot of people don't understand is that we are not set in who we are. Right. We are if especially if we adopt a growth mindset. we are never set in who we are. We can always improve and refine the neural structure of our brain to where it works more efficiently. Not just that, but you have to. It never ends. There's never a time when you're done with discipline.

You don't just get it and now I have discipline. No, every day is a struggle. Gaggen said that, he goes, sometimes I stare at my sneakers for like a half hour before I put those motherfuckers on. Yeah, at like four in the morning, you know, every day. But here's the thing is that it becomes a philosophical question because when you say you have to, you know, there are people who get by life, you know, and they... There is a Tibetan tradition that the monks do where they spend months and they take these little like flute things and they have colored sand, right? And they all sit in a circle. And it takes them months sometimes to create this beautiful, intricate sand art.

And they chant while they do it and it's this most incredible thing. months sometimes to create this beautiful intricate sand art and they chant while they do it and it's this most incredible thing and at the end they go and they blow it all away yeah and and it's meant to represent the impermanence of life but then it's meant to also pose the question why make something so beautiful when it's going to be, when you know it's impermanent? And I believe it goes back to the first thing we started talking about today, which is that meaning is everything in life.

And nothing really in life inherently has any meaning except the meaning we give it, right? Right. So you could go, you could like go through life as sand on the beach that blows in the wind and you know, no one, you wouldn't, it wouldn't really mean much when you blow one way or another. Yeah. But if you choose to give your life meaning and build a sand castle and make it as intricate and beautiful as you can and make it like, you know, as detailed as possible, it and beautiful as you can and make it like you know as detailed as possible knowing that one day it's gonna get washed away at the only person that it matters to is you and knowing that you did the best you could at that moment

that the wave comes yeah if that's true they should never let anybody film them making those things hmm they should never let anyone film them making those things. They should never let anyone film them making those things because then it becomes permanent. Someone can see it forever. Sure, but you know what I'm saying? But yeah again I think it's for them anyways. Yes. It's not for everyone else. But like when you let people peer into that world and you film it, there's something about that like, oh, you just cheated it. Well, in a way, it becomes permanent, but it also, I mean, is, you know, just because you see it happening... Let's look at it.

Can you find that? Yeah, sure, you could find it on there. I mean, I'm not dismissing it. No, no, I think, but I think it's an interesting question because something that lives in our subjective reality, if you see a video of that happening, and then you grasp the concept of it, and then that makes you consider that concept in yourself, understanding that, you know, that the meaning is a subjective experience anyways, then now you understand, like, okay, what, it just causes one to ask the question to themselves, and I think that's the

purpose that the monks are, you know, they're there as sort of like, in a way, they're teachers, you know, so they show you something that like, then you ask, you know, inside. Yeah, so what you were saying was that in response to the idea that everyone should exercise and use discipline. Yeah, sorry, yeah. Yeah, well, but it's like you don't have to do that, but your life will have, you will experience a different sense of meaning if you do that. And that will, I think that's enough for me at least, because I'm driven by finding a sense of meaning. And I think maybe because of how I grew up.

Maybe others aren't driven by that you know I think that's really important to say too because you never know like what what is driving one right I don't know how your brain works exactly I could only guess yeah I could only assume your brain works like mine sure and that's silly that's a silly thing to assume yeah we don't even know if we see the same colors. Right. There it is. Wow, that's so beautiful. Isn't it? That's amazing.

And then they're going to fuck that up. I wrote a piece once for Esquire or Maxim, one of those things, about your body is like a sandcastle. Yeah. That you're building this body, but one day it will be eroded. Now they're just sweeping it away. And then they'll like dump the sand in the river. Well, that's kind of cool too though.

Isn't it? It's kind of abstract as they swirl it. It's kind of beautiful too. Yeah. But think how long that took them. Oh my god, I must have taken forever. And they're scooping the sand up. They scoop it up.

Yeah, look. They're just doing it with these little things. Wow. They just tap on it. Look at that. Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. I've always loved this, that concept, right? And I think that, you know, yeah, maybe they shouldn't let you film it. I don't know. I'm like, I'm glad they did. Yeah, I mean they're letting people watch it. Yeah. And, you know, just allowing people to see what the whole thing is. And, you know, just allowing people to see

what the whole thing is. And it'll allow more people to understand the concept. Well, that's kind of like Alan Watts, like always says, you know, don't listen to what I'm saying. Right. Because the Dao that can be spoken is not the real Dao. Right.

And yet here I am just loving the sound of my own voice and talking about it, you know what I mean? And like, you know, so it's like, you know, that's the great paradox of the spiritual self and understanding what that means, you know. Well, that becomes readily apparent after you have a psychedelic experience. I remember one of my first ones that I had, I realized when I was trying to describe it, like I'm trying to impress people with the way I use my words. I was very aware. Yeah, I was like oh, I'm trying to impress people With my grasp of language that I'm using to describe an experience

Mm-hmm, and I was like oh, that's kind of gross one of the great of course actually when I started listening to you it was in like 2007 2006 and it was I was listening to a lot of Terrence McKenna at the time and Terrence McKenna talk about someone who had a grasp on the English language. Yeah he was amazing. What an incredible yeah like I'd listened to his lectures you know that were available online. Psychedelic Salon is the best resource that's still up right? Lorenzo from Psychedelic Salon, who had been on the podcast before, back in the day, he's collected like the greatest assembly

of McKenna, Alan Watts, Timothy Leary. Rom Doss probably. Yes. There's a Rom Doss conversation, I think, with Alan Watts. Oh, wow. Somewhere out there, which is really conversation. I think with Alan Watts Oh, wow somewhere out there, which is really well my friend Duncan became friends with Ram Dass Yeah, I actually met him in Hawaii one time really. Yeah, I got to meet him Yeah, psychedelic salon. So it is psychedelic salon.com and there's Lorenzo and Psychedelic Salon is like this

incredible resource of all the McKenna lectures. He's, I mean, he has, because it's such a great resource, so many people who were there at like, you know, some talk that he gave in Hawaii at some conference room somewhere recorded it and then they would send that to Lorenzo and then he'd put it online and have it available for everybody And you know some amazing. Yeah insights and conversations He lived not too far from where I live in Maui. Mm-hmm So I went on a whale watch with him one time really with McKenna. No with wrong with Rom one time. Really? With McKenna? No, with Ram Dass. Sorry. Yeah, but not McKenna. I think McKenna died when I was a kid, like really early. Yeah,

I think he died in... 95 or something? No, it was a little later than that. Oh. When, what year did McKenna die? You're Jamie, right? Yeah. Jamie. I heard you play golf. I do. And you were in a simulator earlier. I was. I was in a simulator last night to like, my hands all blistered out. We were having a conversation while we were getting espresso and I was saying I can't play music for the same reason I can't play golf.

And then he shows me his hands. So he's, we're all like. And you're like, oh, that's what he was just doing back there. Jamie's got this. He's got the bug. Yeah, he's got it bad. Well, he wants to fuck his friends up. It's fun.

Yeah. It is a fun game. It's fun to make people mad. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's a weird motivation, but OK. Well, but okay. Yeah. It's funny, like, the closest friends we have are sometimes, you know, the ones we give the most shit, though. Oh yeah, for sure. You know what I mean? Well, they're the ones that know you love them so you can give them shit.

So you can kind of, yeah. And it's fun. There's nothing like that feeling of like having a friend that can take it and dole it out. That's why I love comedians. They're the best. They're the best. You shit on them, they love it. They shit on themselves. Everyone's having fun. Exactly. That's one of the great joys in life, I think. Yeah, the people that can't take that, boy, you're missing out on a giant chunk of what it means to be a person. If you're so sensitive, you can't let people crack on you. That's so silly. Yeah, exactly. You're missing out on a giant chunk of what it means to be a person. If you're so sensitive, you can't let people crack on you.

Like, that's so silly. Well, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're missing out on a lot of the fun. You're missing out on half the laughs. Because half the laughs are at your own expense. Exactly. I think I probably laughed harder at myself than at anyone else in my life.

That's a healthy perspective then. Then you're a fairly healthy person. Oh, well, I mean, it's funny, you know, we're running around, you know, trying to find meaning in life and you know, one day, you know, like one day is a crazy thought, but one day, the last remembrance of the human experience will happen. Yes. You know, and shit, it might be in our lifetime. I doubt it. I think it'll be, I think it'll be, because even now we're uploaded into the AI system, you know, so like something will survive, you know, some artifact.

Yeah, something, well whatever we are will lead to whatever comes next. There's a great episode of Star Trek called The Inner Light. Have you ever seen that? The first Star Trek? The real one? The next generation. Oh, that's bullshit Star Trek. Whoa. Whoa. Them's fighting words, man. You're a Picard guy? Hell yeah, I'm a Picard guy. I'd vote for him right now. That's hilarious. Meanwhile, he probably could win. Diplomacy, man. So this is The Inner Light? The Inner Light. Here's the! Meanwhile, he probably could win. Diplomacy, man. So this

is the inner light? The inner light. Here's the story, okay, here's the story. They come across a probe, alright, because they're exploring space, obviously, if you don't know Star Trek, you're exploring space and the whole, their whole mission is to go where no man has gone before. Right. And so they find this probe and as they're scanning the probe it zaps Picard and he goes unconscious and he wakes up in this, on this world where he remembers the spaceship, he remembers where he was, but he's got a wife and a family and kids and this world is being threatened by an exploding sun. And so he's got a lot of scientific knowledge, so he over the next 20 years in this world, he eventually grows old and accepts his fate that he has

no idea how he got here, but he's got to live this life now and he starts to love his wife and his kids. He starts to try and save this planet from the exploding Sun, he ends up not being able to. And then as he dies, he wakes up back on the spaceship with only 20 seconds having gone by on the spaceship. And the probe had been sent by that civilization. They knew they were going to be destroyed, so they uploaded this thing that would let Picard experience what happened to their civilization and tell their story. Wow. And he did it, experienced it, he experienced a lifetime of 40 or 25 whatever years before he died in the span of 20 seconds, and then woke up at the moment of his death in that other life and then was able to now tell the story of this forgotten civilization in space.

Whoa. It's the coolest concept ever. Okay, I'll have to watch it now. I mean, I just told you so. Sounds like art. Do you know who Joseph McGonigal is? No. Joseph McGonigal was like, he was remote viewer number one.

Oh, interesting. He was the first guy. And they gave him an assignment once without him knowing where he was looking into. And what it turned out, he was looking into Mars one million years ago. And when he looked into Mars a million years ago, Mars was falling apart.

And there were beings on Mars that were going into hibernation, they had built pyramids and all these structures, and they had to leave Mars because Mars was being destroyed, their atmosphere was being destroyed, and they had to leave Mars because Mars was being destroyed, their atmosphere was being destroyed, and they had to come to Earth. Right. Oh.

What he surmised from that is that what we are is the children of the people of Mars. That's why we're so different from all the other primates. There's a whole movie dedicated to that exact premise. Really? Called Mission to Mars. Who's in it? I don't know. Is that an old movie? Is it Greg Kinnear, maybe? Greg Kinne's in it? I don't know. Is it Greg Kenear? Maybe?

Greg Kenear? No, I don't know. Let's look at it because it's like a great movie and it's about that at the end. I might have seen it now that I'm thinking about it. Gary Sinise. Gary Sinise. What year was this? 2000. Yeah, Mission to Mars. Yeah, and that's exactly the premise of the entire movie And so the premise of the movie is that these people they go on a mission to Mars? They see like a structure on the surface of Mars so they go and they check it out Whoa, and then like that's the whole thing and they realize that Mars well You know this is not outside of the realm of possibility

No, and one of the reasons why I say that is like they've found recent, they've recently found structures on Mars that are so obviously man-made that it's almost impossible to deny, like I showed it to Elon and he's like oh we should go look at it. Okay, but here's the thing about like- Have you seen that? Do you know what I'm talking about? No. Show them this them the square on Mars. So there's this- In the 1970s, they took satellite photos of what looked like a face on Mars in Cydonia. I remember.

It's kind of weird, kind of weird, but it's hard to say if that's- Like there's things on Earth that look like faces, it's just like- It's just a natural formation. Right. But then they found this. is recent look at that I mean what the fuck is that man look at those right angles look at that that's on Mars yeah and that's interesting that may have been a structure it may have yeah I mean look it's too complete it's too square it's a square I mean look. It's too complete. It's too square. It's a square. I mean look. It might actually be a rectangle, right? Is it kind of a rectangle? Well, I don't

know. We'd have to measure it. I'm sure they could measure it with, you know, throughout, you know. I just, here's the thing. When I looked at remote viewing, for example, and I really looked and did research on it, the studies that were done were kind of discredited about how the effectiveness of those actually were. So if you really dive in, there's literature that says that it wasn't really the reason that they, you know, apparently, now this is all like conflicting information. Right. I had Hal put off on who was a remote viewer and who was involved in the remote viewer, the Stargate program. Right.

So what does he say about the idea that like, you know, the actual studies were not that like conclusive and then, you know, that's why they... It depends on who's doing it. I know. Who's doing it, what's the methodology. But they were ever, they were able to accurately find within a small radius a downed Russian spacecraft. So a Russian spacecraft that re-entered orbit and crashed. It was a spacecraft or an aircraft. Do you remember Jamie? But they used remote

viewers and the Russians couldn't find it and they found it. And this is you're talking about in like a vast expanse of wilderness. It could have been anywhere. They found the area where it was. They also found a Russian factory that was about in like a vast expanse of wilderness. It could have been anywhere, but they found the area where it was. They also found a Russian factory that was making an enormous nuclear submarine. They found it, accurately described it, the dimensions of it, they knew where it was, and it was an accurate location. Not just the thing that was being hidden right? But where was the dimensions of it now? I don't dismiss it. I can't dismiss anything I just know that like when I looked up like

UFO experiences and like you know this this disclosure stuff that's happening lately and yeah, I mean I'm a huge I And I mean, I'm a huge, I'm not just a believer, I'm a, I pray that there is someone out there disarming nuclear missiles as, you know, especially right now, like, you know, my great hope is that there is someone just trying to like, you know, not step in, but oversee it to the point where we hopefully we can survive to a point of having an interstellar civilization you know it would be it's the great dream of humanity right you know sure but we have to be a different civilization than we are now otherwise we're going to do the same shit that's the thing is it and that's what I you know I I was always even before Elon was as famous as he is

now when I was like 15, I read his book. And the one thing that I, you know, I'm a friend of... What was his book? He read, it was like a book about him maybe. Okay. But, and I can't remember, but what I really wanted the focus to be on was, let's put all these resources into getting this planet right first. Let's put everything we have.

And you know, it felt at the time like, okay, well, yes, we're spending all this money to go off, and maybe we're hopeless. It's possible that we're hopeless, and it sounds like that's where they err on this. It's like, oh, well, humanity on Earth is just over. We just have to go somewhere else. But then if we go somewhere else, we're just going to do the same thing like you're saying. You know, it's like, oh, well, humanity on Earth is just over. We just have to go somewhere else.

But then if we go somewhere else, we're just going to do the same thing like you're saying. So like, all of the resources, in my opinion, should be focused on like, there's devices that they have invented that can be put in river mouths around the world to filter out pollution and plastics going into the ocean, right? And it's like this incredible technology. If the budgets were spent towards these innovations, you know, and maybe AI will help it. You know, right now AI is kind of a tax on the planet in terms of like, you know, it's not very good for it. But maybe the AI technology itself will then invent something that makes itself more efficient for the planet. What do you mean by AI has attacks on the planet? Well because the energy

required for the servers and all of that is so you know it drains a lot of resource. Right, right. And so but what AI may do is help us create like an ion battery or something that like makes energy give off less, you know, you can have this much more energy with way less heat and way less, you know, and so then you can create, you know, instead of having to have giant warehouses full of servers, you can have just, you know, like, I mean, like it's the same stuff that happened with the computer, where the computer required a giant building when it was first created, and now you have

computers smaller than a... Just to be clear, Elon's position is not that Earth is, like, that humans are helpless or hopeless and we have to just leave Earth. It's not that. It's that life is so fragile here because of the possibility, not just of us fucking it up, but of natural disasters and that we need to become interstellar in order to propagate life and to survive. And so we can carry on this growth that we're involved in as a human species because there's, I mean, they just, what was the number that they just

found? A bunch of new asteroids? Like the possibility of us being hit by a near earth object is extremely high over the next X amount of hundreds of years. It's extremely high. And these things might not wipe everything out, but they'll start civilization all over again. They'll bring us back to cave people. So the idea was that the more places that we are, the more likelihood that the human race survives. It's not just that we're going to fuck this up. And I appreciate wanting the human race to survive. Don't get me wrong. But it should be better than it is now. I want us to learn our lessons on this planet. And I think that that's even more important than surviving.

I mean, here's the thing, when you ask yourself, when someone asks themself, have I lived a life worth living? Is a life worth living someone who lives a very long time? Or is a life worth living someone who's lived a good life and maybe for shorter? So what is the ultimate effect that humanity has on the natural world and environment? Do we deserve to be spacefaring? And if we do, then I say let's go. Peter Van Doren Deserve by whose judgment?

Peter Bregman Well, I mean, by my own individual judgment at this, right? You know, but I mean, I mean are we better than the Lions who killed the gazelles? No, but the Lions everyone who all the natural world works cyclically the the way that the lion kills the gazelle and the way that the Alligator takes the you know, the worst. Yeah, exactly everything works with balance in nature. You have just enough give and take, it's worked that way for years, and then yes,

extinctions, events happen, and then things die out. But there has never been a creature on the planet with the ability like we have to take as much resource as possible as we can without replenishing that or balancing that out. So we, I think, have a responsibility as humanity to understand how to balance ourselves with the and harmonize with nature. And I think that's where my great hope is, is that we figure out how to find a cyclical arrangement with nature, where we, just like photosynthesis, just like plants give us oxygen, and then, you know, the carbon dioxide we breathe, then the plants then sequester.

Well, our disconnection to nature mightester. Well, our disconnection to nature might be a part of our disconnection to psychedelics. That might be one of the reasons why we're disconnected, is we're lacking a crucial element that's there to humble the human species. Yes, I think that's the great key. I think that's part of it. I think I really do, and I think that these monsters that were trying to silence the anti-war and the civil rights movement in the 1970s by making those things illegal, they essentially, they hampered our development, but not all of it, right? So

our technological development continued, but our spiritual development ceased. Yeah, and intellect, devoid of wisdom, is dangerous. Yeah, for sure. Especially like, overcome with ego. Intellect, overcome with ego, is like really disgusting. And the thing about it is that no one believes they're a monster. Right. Everyone justifies their behavior. And they think they're doing good.

I mean, with the exception of, like I said, a few sociopathic, completely devoid of empathy individuals. But for the most part, everyone justifies their behavior for themselves, they judge themselves, and then they somehow make it, well, because I'm doing this, because I'm doing this, you know, I can sleep at night. And so they let themselves sleep at night. And a lot of times, they should be looking at themselves

and changing, but they don't, you know. And like, so that's why my policy is, I try to just always look at myself and see, is this actually beneficial for not just me, but for the people around me, you know. Music has been one of the great things in life that is a win-win you know. Yes. It's always a win-win. Yeah that's a great way to look at it. You know it's like wow I'm so lucky to just be able to observe, be able to play, be able to sleep well. Yeah. You're a chef for the soul. You know, like a chef provides food, it's a win-win, people eat, it's wonderful, you enjoy the food, it sustains you. And I think music is, that's a lot of what a musician is, you're a chef for the soul.

Jimi Hendrix, you're a huge fan. Huge. Yeah. He was, other than my dad, it was Jimi and Stevie Ray Vaughan and Stevie Ray being here yeah Austin I sort of had a special affinity for even though Hendrix Steve Ray is the only one who's allowed to do voodoo child other than Hendrix I think you're probably right there you know I mean other people can I'm just joking around no no I think I actually heard you say that with Charlie I was like yeah I think I agree kind of right. No, no, I think I actually heard you say that with Charlie. I was like, yeah, I think I agree.

Kind of right, because he's the only one that I can listen to where I go, yeah, yeah, this is like a Stevie Ray version of Rue Child. Well, and he was a disciple of Hendrix. He really sat and really lived that life. And the thing that I learned that was the best lesson I learned. It goes back to why I am sober now and where I'm at. It was because I think the greatest lie I ever believed for so long, I did 15 years on the road, you know, 250 shows a year. And I told myself I had to live like my heroes in order to be, you and I think I think I think that's what it didn't kill Stevie Ray but it derailed him for a long time before he got sober you know

Stevie Ray died in a tragic accident obviously it was yeah you know just that's what happened but I almost had a chance to drive him really I was driving limousines for this limousine company in Boston and we're supposed to he's supposed to take a limousine but he wouldn't take limousine company in Boston. And he's supposed to take a limousine, but he wouldn't take limousines, he would take cabs. He always wanted to take cabs. So I drove this limousine, I drove Jeff Beck once. I drove Annie Lennox's crew.

I didn't drive Annie Lennox. I love Annie Lennox, she's beautiful, she's amazing. I had to drop off the crew at this restaurant and Annie Lennox was talking and her voice was so power, it was like, the way I described it, I was like, her vocal cords were made out of like piano wire because like her voice was carrying in the room. And I was, at the time I was 20 maybe?

And I remember like watching her talk, oh, this is crazy. Like this lady's voice is like Traveling like it's it has a different power than everyone else in the in the restaurant The voice is such an incredible thing. Is it not? I mean, yeah the power of a vocal chord like look at James Earl Jones Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, you know like to change Darth Vader by the way Yeah, and he lived to be what 95 something like how long did I mean he was crazy and he was still doing that Well, yeah That's there's certain once a new ride didn't what wouldn't take limos like fuck this limo

Yeah, you want to get he liked to talk to cab drivers like to get in the cab and he liked to just keep it real. Even though he was a superstar, he didn't want to be treated like one. He just wanted to be normal. Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been in like Ubers or Lifts or whatever, just sitting and chatting about where they're from and how they got there.

There's a lot of incredible stories that sure you know of like you know perseverance yeah you know escaping certain situations yeah no doubt yeah I mean and then you know this everybody's got their own little journey and sometimes you dip into someone's journey and go what are you doing man yeah what's going on what you up to I was trying to learn a little bit of the language too. Like, how do you say this? Yeah. There's something like,

there's something that just makes people, I think, really drop their defenses when you submit yourself with humility to learn their language. Yeah. Until I say, you know what? I'm like, look, thank you for driving me. I'm so glad you're here. Right.

How do you say thank you? Right, right right right right how do you correctly pronounce your name exactly yeah yeah well you know I work for the UFC so there's a lot of people that I have to ask them tell me how to say your name because some of these names are just insane like some of the names from Dagestan or from yeah you know Kazakhstan there's so many places where it's like Shavkat Rakhmanov, like Jesus Christ, it takes forever. And I have to, I can't fuck their names up. No, I'm glad that you think that,

because that's a beautiful thing. Well, it's interesting. I'm fascinated by the different sounds that people choose to use as their language in different places. It's like human beings evolved in all these different places with all these different ways of communicating.

They're all different. What's the clicking in Africa? There's a musician, and I can't remember for the life of me her name, which is maybe Angelique Kidjo, but no. But she sings and she uses the clicks and then just does this sort of, oh my gosh, it's incredible. She uses the clicks in her singing. In her music, oh it's so beautiful, oh man. You gotta wonder, like what caused them to develop that kind of language, you know? It's like they're all developing it in a vacuum, right? Because they're all, the people in that

area, in that community, generation after generation after generation, all agree to communicate in a vacuum, right? Because they're all the people in that area, in that community, generation after generation after generation, all agree to communicate in a certain way. Yeah. And then they run into people in China, and you're like, Jesus, this is so different. And in China, there's like, I don't know how many different dialects.

Oh, yeah. And they're completely different. Oh, yeah, well, my grandparents were from Italy, and they spoke a Sicilian dialect. Oh, I'm Sicilian, too. Oh, that's great. On the other side, yeah. Well, my grandparents were from Italy and they spoke a Sicilian dialect. Oh, I'm Sicilian too. Oh, that's great. On the other side, yeah. But I remember me like learning Italian in college and it was so different than the way

that they were speaking Italian. Well, and I think, I'm not certain, but Dean Martin had a specific, and it may have been Sicilian or maybe a specific Northern Italian or Napoli, maybe it's, but the way that he would sing Domenico Modugno's song, you know, Volare, penso che un sogno così non mi torni mai più. Volare. And he would do it and he'd go,

he'd have these like slang In his version. It's quite. It's quite different the Italian if you listen to them together Interesting really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, the dialects are weird, right? It's like people learn how well, I mean look at in America, right? You can go to like New Orleans. Yeah, and people have a completely different way of talking than people do in New York City. Oh yeah, yeah. Have you heard about the new, speaking of AI, the new adventures that we're now embarking on some scientists, they're like using AI

to communicate with animals, like whales. I saw that with cats. I saw that today, that AI. You saw that today? Yes, AI is Translating cat language with like 95% accuracy they think they know what cats are saying to each other now Do you think that will have an effect on how we treat animals if we're able to communicate with probably? Yeah

Well, I'm sure you've seen dogs when people say I love you and they do Yeah, you know like yeah, they're trying to say I love you. they do a rawr rawr rawr rawr yeah yeah you know like like there's something there yeah they're trying to say I love you they just don't have the same lips yeah and they're very dogs will you know they're very good at mimicking oh yeah you know and behavior well they certainly understand language because I talk to my dog like a person I talk to him yeah

like I can say come on man is it time to go outside what outside? What do you want to do? You want to get crazy? And he's like, hmm? I'm going to go outside? Like he knows what I'm saying. Like I can, I don't have to say it in a certain tone. I can just say the words. He knows, yeah. It's funny, my dad, you know, Roger Miller, you ever hear of Roger Miller? It's Roger Miller. Trailers for sale or rent, rooms to let 50s in. You know, King of the Road. Oh, right.

King of the Road. Yeah, that's right. So my dad and him were good friends and he used to tell a lot of great jokes, but one of them was, it's true, you start, what they say, you start looking like your dog. I just got chewed out by the neighbor for shitting in their front yard. My dad has so many amazing jokes. Well you, it must have been really interesting, the people that your dad brought around. Yeah.

Cause like, you know. One of the greatest moments I ever felt like I was a part of was just a sort of a normal afternoon. And I was in Hawaii and I was at my parents' house there. And it was me and Dad were sitting around and Chris Christopherson walks by and in behind walks in. They're on their way to the airport or coming from the airport or whatever. And in walks in with him, Muhammad Ali. Whoa. And so I'm sitting there and me and dad are just picking and Muhammad comes and sits down and Chris is on one side of him and dad's on the other and I'm the one who got the guitar.

And so we just start singing for him and he's shaking. He can't speak really, you know, but you just see with me and dad and Chris was just like serenading Muhammad Ali one afternoon Wow, and we saying help me make it through the night We sang always on my mind why saying one of my song, you know, and so it's just like it was like a Beautiful afternoon. I'll never forget that moment It must have been so strange to be constantly surrounded by these exceptional people, not just exceptional, but exceptional worldwide, like the way they're received worldwide.

These are iconic humans. Chris Christopherson is an iconic human being. Muhammad Ali is an iconic human being. Yes. He's and the key language there is a human being, well-rounded, thoughtful, empathetic, wise. These people, they made their life, Jimmy Hendrix I think was famous in saying that your art isn't just the music, it's your life. You make your life the work of art.

He had no problem with all the colors that he used in his whole life. He had no problem expressing himself in many other forms other than how he dressed and how he worked. Everything was an expression of who he was in his art. And I'm grateful to have been exposed to a lot of those people in my life. It's a very exceptional childhood in that regard, right? Because for some people, they grow up and I remember the first time I ever met a really famous person, I was like, whoa, this is weird. It was probably my tw- other than seeing Jeff Beck and seeing Annie Lennox, I never really met them.

You know, I didn't really start meeting famous people until I became a comedian, then really meeting famous people until I got on television. And then it was just, it was odd. It was just so odd. It was, and still to this day sometimes, I'll have someone in here, like had Bono in here. And it's just weird to me. Like one of my first Bono memories, I was like 25 years ago, I was doing mushrooms and I was listening to In God's Country.

I got to tell that to Bono. It was one of the wildest versions of your songs, like looking out over this canyon while that song was playing. Yeah, it's beautiful though. It's a beautiful memory. Yeah, it's an amazing song. But it's just weird to just accept that they're human beings because you see them on television you see them in all these things and you

You grow to realize like oh, we're all just human beings and like that's part of the lesson of it is to meet someone who you Don't think is just a human being and you realize like oh all of us are human beings Yeah, that's a great lesson. I mean and when I think that I was able to understand human beings. That's a great lesson. I mean, and when I think that I was able to understand fame and its trappings at a young age, and that's, you know, that's something I'm also very grateful for that I, you know, was able to see like, okay, a lot of dad's friends, a lot of the people that I grew up around didn't make it very long because they got into this or they got into that, or they, you know, and I see it all happening a lot to a lot of young people make it very long because they got into this or they got into that.

And I see it all happening a lot to a lot of young people that are unable to handle fame. And fame is not inherently a good thing. I think it's actually probably a net negative, although it's a necessary thing if you want your art to get out to as many people as possible or if you want to create a living. I don't depend on my parents, so I want my music to get out there so that I'll have a career when I'm 90. I want to be playing, you know, I don't want to, I mean eventually I have to keep making

a living, you know. So you have to be a little famous. I have to, you think there's a part of you that, you know, part of the entertainment world where you have to make sure, you have to put yourself out there. Yeah. And that's kind of despite knowing that when you put out yourself out there then all the, you know, that you get unwanted attention too. I think one of the worst things about it is the scammers on the internet. There's so many scammers now on Instagram and Facebook and everyone and they prey on elderly people Oh, yeah, and they prey on you mean it's can pretend

They're you they pretend that they're me and they go out there and these people are Are I think they're the lowest form on this planet really because these are people that have dementia issues they have you know, you know, they're elderly, you know, and they prey on that demographic specifically because they know that they're more gullible and don't understand technology and they think that I'm talking to them and they'll give in some cases thousands and thousands of dollars of their own savings in my name. And that has almost made me get off the internet many times But even so what happens when I get off is and they just run rampant

Mm-hmm, you know they create new accounts and then the people that are you know sort of and they they don't want to believe it's not me Of course, you know, and so like the people that are caught in it Get caught and they get hooked. I remember watching this documentary once and it was about people that get scammed romantically online and there's this guy who is this lonely man who is in his 60s and he had this girlfriend that he was communicating with in Europe that was non-existent and he flew over there twice to meet her and every time she conveniently couldn't meet him. Totally. And his daughter was trying to explain to him that it wasn't real, that he's getting scammed, that he didn't want to believe it. And in the documentary you could see like this guy

like coming to grips with it but not wanting to believe it and like oh something just came up she couldn't go she loves me. It's the saddest thing. That just happened to us recently. I played a show with Eric Church at Chiefs and I had a bunch of friends there and everything and we had someone show up at the door saying that they had been given, they had been put on the list by me, that I was in a relationship with that person. You sure they weren't just schizophrenic? Well, these people are in some cases schizophrenic or you know They have Alzheimer's or dementia or memory issues or whatever, but a lot of times they're just

Being catfished, you know, they're just like, you know, like I mean I've seen There is that show catfish that was on TV or not too long ago I don't know if it's still around but like these are Otherwise sort of normal people that get they get tricked into believing they're in a relationship and they have a girlfriend and they're online and they get to the place. These are sometimes younger people that even get, it just shows you how easily,

sometimes even intelligent people can be manipulated. For sure. Yeah, well, it's just the perils of dealing with this non-material world. Yeah. Dealing with the internet world. I mean, and I'm sure it happened in some ways back in the day, you know, with letters and things like that.

It happened with everything. I mean, snake oil salesman. Yes. I was reading some, oh, no, I was watching Cody Tucker today. He had something about this guy who was treating people for cataracts. And it didn't really treat them, it actually blinded them. And he had done it to two different famous composers. This one guy was like, and he was a traveling guy.

He would go from town to town and do things like that. There's always been people like that. And you ask yourself, do those people have any, like conscience, you know, at that, at a certain point, what are they telling themselves to justify their behavior? Yeah, they're probably just getting by and probably they've been fucked over too. Most of those people have been fucked over

to the point where they can justify fucking over other people. Like those people have it coming. You know, someone did it to me, I'm gonna do it to them, this is the game we play. where they can justify fucking over other people. Like those people have it coming. Someone did it to me, I'm gonna do it to them, this is the game we play. What is the antidote to that? I think those people exist so you can appreciate people that don't do that.

I think that's where heartless, nasty, vicious people exist. It's like, have you ever been in a relationship with someone who's just like a Like, one time, me and my friend Brian, we went on this hunt for a gun. We went to a hunting site. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun.

We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun.

We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. We were hunting for a gun. Maybe I wouldn't appreciate this person. Totally. You know, and like that's the beauty. Like one time, me and my friend Brian, we went on this hunting trip with my friend Steve Rinella to this island in Alaska. And we were there for a week getting rained on every day.

It was miserable. Just freezing, shivering every day for a week. Then I came back to LA, and the sun felt so good it never felt that good I've been living in LA for 25 fucking years it never felt that good but I appreciated the Sun why did I appreciate the sign cuz I just been rained on for a week yeah I had taken it for granted this beautiful amazing sunlight that I just just go oh it's fucking sunny day where's my sunglasses let me drive to work and get inside real quick because it's too fucking bright out you know

and I didn't and but because of the rain for a week of rain I I really felt it and I remember calling my friend Steve I have never been happier and that's why is because it sucked for a week and I think you need that I think you need that. I think you need shitty people so that you appreciate good people. And I think when you meet someone who's gaslighty and someone who tries to ruin your life, those people exist so that you can appreciate people that aren't like that.

The yin and yang of life. Another great example of that is when you have to pee so bad. Ha ha ha. And then that moment when you get to pee so bad. Right? And then that moment when you get to the toilet. Beer drinkers understand that. Oh man, yeah. Or when you're sick and you know and then you're like, man, it's almost like you can't even remember how it felt to feel good. And then when you feel good, you're

like, I'm so grateful that I feel good. It's an amazing feeling. Yeah, that is the thing we take for granted more than anything is personal health. And you give up personal health for a short time, short term experiences, like drinking. Like drinking is terrible for your health, but you give it up, you give up these little chunks of your health for these like small bursts

of release of inhibition, you know? Right, yeah, I never really liked it anyways. like small bursts of release of inhibition, you know? Right. Yeah, I never really liked it anyways. It never really actually put me in, too often, I always was like, I wish I hadn't. It puts you in bad spots. Yeah, I feel like, I think the people, and I've read this, that the people who actually

sort of drink and become like happier with the life of the party or whatever are the ones who are more likely to become addicted, obviously. Oh, for sure. You know, because there are two types of people that when they drink, like for me when I drink, it kind of makes me think more and I get kind of depressed and I get like kind of down. I don't really actually... Well, you're a sensitive artist, literally.

That's literally what you do. Hold on. You're right. Now you can lean into that. That's a weird thing too. People lean into that sensitivity. They lean into it. They carry it around as a badge of courage.

You know, it's just fine. It's okay. But you know, those are the type of people that, I mean, that's why I feel so good for them. Yeah, exactly. When you, um, when, you know, you drink and then you just like become overly sensitive and think about things. It's just like, it's because you have a lot of empathy. And the alcohol, the release of inhibition makes you like be overwhelmed by the empathy Yeah, be overwhelmed by thinking I mean, you know

The world's filled with a lot of weird shit man And it's like there's all these different channels that you can tune into all these different things that you can focus on Yeah, I think that you know the ice bath Analogy for me. It's like I love the clarity that I get after an ice bath And I feel like sobriety gives me that mm-hmm You know it's just like it's just like this great awake alive feeling and I'm living in that clarity It's yeah, it's a perfect example. Yeah, because you have to go through it to get there

Yeah, you get out of that ice bath. You feel so fucking good Why do you feel so fucking good because for three minutes you felt you're gonna die? You feel so fucking good. Why do you feel so fucking good? Because for three minutes you felt like you're gonna die Literally the benefit of it and what's fascinating to me is I watch all these people try to dismiss it and all these people try to say, you know It's foolish and silly and like the one thing those people all have in common dismissers is they all lack discipline They all are fighting it Intellectually, They're fighting whatever

that fucking mid-singulate cortex. The anterior mid-singulate cortex. Yeah. Theirs is weak as fuck. They don't like it and so they try to diminish the people that do have it. You know, they try to diminish it. Which is just a compensation thing that people do. People are always doing that. Yeah. And you know those voices are important too because those voices like you go oh I know why you're doing that. Even the gaslighty people like oh I know why you're doing that. Well it's helped me get through life understanding people and that their behavior comes from their own trauma and their own past. Sure and the thing that

you hate in other people, oftentimes you hate it because you're terrified of seeing it in yourself. Well, that's the great lesson, you know. I mean, and, or, and it doesn't mean that, here's what, I think it doesn't mean that you are that, it just means that you're afraid of that inside. Oh yeah, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean you are that. But I think that yes, it's like what you're most afraid of,

you know. Because you know it exists in you because everything exists in all of us. We're the exploded universe in manifested motion. We are the unfolding universe every moment. Yeah and all when you get angry at foolishness that you see in other people, what you're angry at is that that thing could be in you and it is in you. It's just you see in other people. What you're angry at is that that thing could be in you. And it is in you. It's just you haven't fed it. It's the wolf you haven't fed. Yeah. And discipline helps with that. It helps you to understand that you are responsible for your feelings. Yes. Yeah. You're responsible for your feelings. And also, there's things that you can do that can make life more bearable and one of those things is physical exertion it makes life more

bearable and with the way I realized this is when I don't exercise for like three or four days in a row which is very rare oh yeah but when it does happen I start getting really weird and anxious I'm like oh my god people like this all day like some people like this their whole life where they just riddled with anxiety and everything is a crisis, every little, every fucking moment is unbearable. I'm like, oh, this makes sense.

This makes sense in our sedentary, weird world where people are just sitting and staring at a screen all day and not doing things. So you're not, you don't have not you don't have you don't have meaning right and then you're just overwhelmed you know and then you know then you'll find a protest and go out there and start fucking screaming in the streets yeah I think there's more to that than that but yes I agree I mean I think a lot of it is that though a lot of it is that a lot of what people

protest there's a lot of protests have like real good purpose behind them, but a lot of the people participating in those protests are looking for meaning in their life, and they don't have it anywhere else. Yes, well and you know, I mean look, we need those people too. We need those people to drive change. Sure, if they're organic. Yeah. Again, the problem with this world is that those things are manipulated. Just like, weaponized. Well, and that's, yeah. You have to be, you have to, yeah, it's important that you don't let your emotions be manipulated,

I think. That's one of the great lessons in this wild world that we're in. I mean, that's what I try the most. That's why I try not to make concrete statements unless I know. At least where I err on is like, okay, this is the compassionate thing to support or do. I have a charity that I work with called Music Heals International, and it's a music school in Haiti, in Venezuela, in India. I think there's a presence here too. And it's just, I think, I know that I can, in concrete ways,

make someone's life more joyful on a face-to-face basis. David Blaine was telling me about, I met David Blaine one time, and he was, he's a cool guy. Very cool guy. And we were discussing that it's almost more powerful to be at a hospital and go and talk to the kids that you're supporting in this hospital rather than to donate to that hospital. I think there's just something so spiritually significant about being with the people that you're helping, and the joy in that being reciprocated, and that feeling of being at the, you know, just giving is joy, you know, ultimately. I think that's a really cool thing, you know, like,

there's a great quote, a man slept and dreamt that life was joy. He awoke and found that life was service. He acted and behold, service was joy." And I like that. I always remember that. There's definitely something to that, right? Making people feel good is selfish. It is. And it's a joy and it's a win-win. Yeah, it's a win-win. Like you get rewarded for being nice. Yeah. And I mean, there's also, I I don't like I think the word kind is more appropriate because people can be nice and not good but I don't think you can truly be kind. Right, because if you're kind you actually are thinking about this.

You feel it. Yeah, you feel it. Whereas you're just being polite. Yeah. Yeah, and you can say the right words with like a shitty Feeling to it like have a good day and you're like, you know, yeah fuck you I know what's behind that British people really good at that. Yeah Really good at like

Words with like a cunty attitude behind it. Yeah, because that's part of their culture. It's like keeping up appearances Well, it's I mean in a way it's part of every culture, you know, and I you know, I think that you know Yeah, keeping up appearances Was one of the things I hated the most about Los Angeles. It's like this the hollowness of communication that's my my bias against actors and people because I encountered so many people that were like artificial constructs. Well, I loved it there when I went and I still love it when I go I mean, I've spent a lot of time. Yeah, I lived there for 10 years. Where'd you live? In Venice.

Okay. Well, that's a little different. Venice is kind of an art. At least it was before I was overwhelmed with homeless people. It was an arts community. About Los Angeles is, Los Angeles is like the cave in Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. And when Luke asks Yoda what's in there and he says, only what you take with you.

Because you can go to LA and find any type of energy. You can go to LA and find any type of person. There's groups of really amazing people and there's groups of people who are lost, you know, and there's different areas and there's different places that, you know, where these different types of people congregate. But LA is a very powerful place. It's a lot of moving place, you know, and I prefer to be in places that are less, there's less movement. I live in Maui, I have my friends

in Maui, my best buddy Matt Miola is a professional surfer and he's a bow hunter and my friend Ollie works construction and when I go home to Maui I like a simple life. They're all fishermen, they're all, you know, I like to go out there and that's how I want to raise my kids, you know. I want to be out there in nature, I want to be giving and taking with the land, and I want to be able to understand the planet that I live on by working with the earth and working with, you know, and that community in Maui there is a really special place. Well, I think Hawaii in general is a very special place because it's surrounded by ocean,

and I think there's something about the ocean that gives you humility, and it like lets you understand that you're a part of nature because... That's where we came from. Yeah, we came from it. And not only that, it's so huge and massive and overwhelming. It's like the mountains. Mountains have a similar effect. It's like they're so vast. You can't have much of an ego when you're in their presence. My other favorite place is Montana. There you go.

Other than, you know, yeah, I mean, anywhere there's nature, but I really like that's being in the mountains of Montana and being on Hawaii. There's only a few places in life that I actually am sad when I leave. Like I get really upset when I leave. You know, it's like breaking up with someone, you know, when you have to leave. Yeah. When you write, do you have a purpose in mind or do you just sit down and try to find out what comes to mind or do you have a thought in your head before you write?

My best work comes, it just, it's like a conduit. It like comes from another place. And I hear like a, like when I was 11, I wrote this song called You Were It. And I was on the school bus and I started hearing this song in my head and I realized that it hadn't been written yet. It was something that was coming from I guess my own experiences but also filtered through somewhere else. It felt

like it came from somewhere, you know, like it was a download, you know, and I think that I look at writing as if like there's a beautiful muse sitting there and she's giving me these gifts every once in a while and then she sends them to me. And if I'm open and clear and not in my own way and I'm, you know, if I get like something that hits me like a clever line, like there's a song I have called, Find Yourself, and I hope you find yourself before I find somebody else to be my love. And I start singing that in my head, and I start like, oh, the melody comes,

and it's a gift, and wherever I'm at, if I got one right now, I'd have to write it down while we were talking. You know what I mean? I have to sit down and be like, hold on, let's write a song. But I try not to, I can't force her to send me,

cause they're gifts. And it's like my dad always says, it's like waiting for the rain to fill up the well. You can't force the rain to come, you just have to wait. And the real stuff comes when you just allow yourself to receive it. And I think I like what you just said too,

about getting out of your own way. Yeah. Because that's the thing. It's like these ideas are out there, but you're so in your own head and so worried about yourself and your own bullshit that sometimes you block them. Yeah. Because all of your attention is on yourself.

Oh, yeah. And you overthink it, and you reanalyze it. And how am I going to look? Is it and is it gonna be cool people gonna like it? Yeah, that's the big one Is this like I think a lot of people get caught up in like well You know like this latest record, you know people like I didn't want to be too flowery with it I didn't I wanted to write simply what came to me and sometimes the songs are simple and I think that simplicity for some people can be like oh well what about the the intricate arrangements and what about the long jams and the exploration like that's not what came to me. Right. And I can't cater

those people you know. Right now where my heart is is Zen. Zen. I'm trying to be as simple as I can be in terms of just only putting out what comes to me at the moment. And sometimes people aren't going to like it because they're used to me rocking and jamming and doing all that, or they're used to me doing that. But that'll come back. It'll come back around, you know? There's a time and a place for everything. And right now I have to be open to it as it comes, not as I want it to be or as I think other people will want it to be. That's it, right? Yeah, you just have to...

The thing has to be kind of pure in its form, and don't over-molest it with a bunch of different production values and fucking layers and sound. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I prefer, I mean, when I listen to my heroes, Hank Williams, dad, Merle Haggard, Stevie Ray and Jimmy are, look, what came to Jimmy was an explosion of color and sound.

I mean, when I hear his music I see colors that are like I can't even describe in real life. Right. Might have something to do with the psychedelics that I also took but at the same time I think that other people... And the psychedelics he took too. And that's the thing is that he it goes back to what we're saying like the state of mind that he was in. 100%. He captured and he put it out. Imagine writing Voodoo Child if you're sober. Yeah, exactly. And there's a time and a place for it. But I have hundreds of songs I have not released that I wrote at different times in my life,

and I'll eventually put them all out, hopefully, if I'm lucky. Did you just go back to them and look at them every now and then? Yeah. How do you file them away? Do you have them on a computer? I have them on a Dropbox file. Oh okay. Yeah.

So every now and then you check them out? There's like a couple hundred songs in there, more probably now because I write them all the time you know and yeah. It's like it's just kind of it just like sometimes like, sometimes it's like, God, I wrote another one that's going to go there, and then that one shoots to the top of the list of the one you're interested in because you just wrote it, and then something that might be really great just gets kind of pushed down. And then like, so what really, you really have to do is each project that comes up,

you have to say, what am I trying to, what am I trying to get across right now? And it's not about whether a song is better or worse, it's about what am I trying to get across right now? And it's not about whether a song is better or worse. It's about what am I trying to say and how do I present that, you know? And so I have to collect 10 or 12 or 14 songs that kind of fit in a narrative that you're trying to put out there. And do you write pen to paper or do you write on a computer? Like how do you do it for the most part? You're writing your phone. I do for the most really yeah well because I have fast thumbs

Okay, and my brain works really fast and when I get really excited. I'll write it down there I can read it properly sometimes. I'll write on a piece of paper. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, I Did ever talk it to your phone like you I put I use voice memo to record everything so a lot of the demos that I have are just voice memo to phone because my brains working fast and this thing works pretty fast yeah you know voice memo has a transcription aspect to it too now oh I didn't even realize yeah yeah I've been using that a lot so So when you, it works on both Android and on iPhones.

But when you make a voice note, it can transcribe it now. So like, what I'll do is I'll record sets and sometimes we do, we do this show at the Comedy Mothership called Bottom of the Barrel where you have like a whiskey barrel and inside is all suggestions from the audience. Just put your hand in there and pick out a piece of paper and pull it out. It's like tomato soup or whatever. And you just have to start talking about it and try to find something in there. And every now and then, it's like one out of X amount of times you have a genuine idea that becomes a bit. And the best way for me to fish those out is to go over the transcription. Instead of just

listening to myself for an hour. Yeah. I mean, that's great. I didn't realize that was a feature, and I'm going to start using it. Yeah, it's pretty dope, because you can just talk, and it'll transcribe it. And then you can copy and paste that transcription

into notes. And even notes itself has a voice memo aspect to it now. Oh, wow. So if you go to just when you're in notes on an iPhone, like you can actually make a voice memo, voice note from that, and it'll transcribe that for you. When you're doing a set, do you have people put their phones away?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, the club has, we have the on-the-bass. Most comedians do that, right? Cause they're trying a lot of material out. Yeah, you're trying material out, and also you don't want people distracted It's better for everybody. It's better for the audience. It's better for you And also you're saying a lot of stuff that's like not done And if somebody releases it because they want clicks and then they put it on you to fuck the whole bit up because it's not done

It's like and a lot of bits They suck at first like you don't know where they're going Like you have an idea and the only way comedy really gets made is in front of a crowd I have a lot of ideas that I think are really good until the audience tells me different You don't know really have no idea until you say it in front of people. That's interesting Yeah, and it's very much the same for you know in music. I feel like There's stuff that I try out live, you know, there's a song, I do a lot of new material live just to see how the audience will react. Does it feel weird the first time you sing it?

Yeah. Yeah. It depends on what type of song it is too. If it's a song that requires focus on the lyrics, you know, then sometimes it feels weird because a lot of people, when they listen to music, they don't hear a lot of lyrics. It takes a certain type of listener to listen to lyrics and be able to internalize them. A lot of people take the song as a whole and the melody

and they hear it and they're like, oh, this song makes me feel good. And then later on, if they like the song, they'll go in and listen to the lyrics. I've found a lot of people listen to music that way. And then it takes them a while to actually hear what, you know, unless it's a stripped down me and a guitar with no band around,

and then it forces the listener to then listen to the words, which I really like doing that sometimes. I like just playing just me because then there's no distraction around and it's sort of just me, a guitar, and the words that I'm saying. And I think they have more impact sometimes that way. Yeah, people love that too. That's why they love acoustic performances, right?

Yeah, exactly. Like Bob Dylan was an amazing... Paul Simon again, these are people that I cite a lot in this way. But but you know Sierra feral. Do you know Sierra feral? Oh my god She's on my new record Steven Wilson jr. He's another great amazing country singer songwriter Sierra feral has one of the greatest voices. I've ever heard really oh my god yeah, you got your lead to love her music and and and Steven Wilson jr. Not only does he a great writer, he used to be a food scientist. So he was a food scientist and he wrote songs kind of as a hobby on the

side but he was responsible for like what percentage of what sort of goes into making dog food and like things like that. It's really interesting. How weird. Yeah, and now he's like really hitting it off. He's a great artist. That's interesting. Like a food scientist too. Well, yeah, I guess there's probably an art to that too, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Create something delicious. Well, you could be an evil food scientist creating junk food that's like super addictive. I think there's a lot of those out there, man. Oh hell yeah. But

I don't, you know, do they think they're evil? They're probably just, you know, getting a job, you know, getting a job done. They're just doing their job. What's their job? You know, I mean, a lot of these food companies, unfortunately, are now owned by the same people that used to own tobacco companies. Right. Or still own tobacco companies. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. And then they develop super addictive junk food family farms man yeah farms regenerative farms support your local family farmer yeah you don't have to eat junk food no you know but also you can yeah just don't eat it all the time Twinkies are great yeah they make you feel like shit but while you're eating them they're delicious.

Yeah I like I think as far as junk food goes I'm just a good old Snickers bar. Oh yeah Snickers bar great. I don't even know if Snickers bar is like really junk food because there's a place for Snickers bars. Like if you're in the backcountry say if you're hiking. Yeah. Snickers bars has nuts some some protein It's plenty of sugar in it too Which you're gonna need if you're burning off a shit ton of calories you're operating in a calorie deficit And sometimes that's like exactly what you need Mmm, you know you need like a little bit of protein a lot of sugar and you know, it helps fuel your muscles

Yeah, and it gives you just simple simple simple calories. Well, I think I just heard you were talking about this, was it George Foreman? He used to drink a Coke after each… No, Floyd Mayweather. Yeah, he drank Coca-Cola after he worked out. There's something to that, there's something to that as hard as he worked out, just like immediate sugar after exercise to replenish the body. Yeah, my friend Cory Sanhagen was talking about that. Okay. He does that.

Yeah. You know, he's a big fan of like, because he's an MMA fighter and so he'll do two and sometimes three workouts in a day. And you know, like if you're going to do that, you have to do something after a hard workout to replenish the muscles. Sure. In order to be able to work out. And the carbs then replenish the muscles in order to be able to work out in two or three hours. And the carbs then replenish the muscles. Yeah, you need those sugars. Yeah, you need fruit, you need fructose.

But wouldn't you want it to be like a more pure like form of sugar than the like, isn't there, aren't there different types of like refined sugar is not, you know. Yeah, perhaps, but also the like high sugar stuff gets in the muscles quicker that's the argument for doing it like right after a workout yeah and is it when what is right after is it like within 15 minutes I think it's within 30 I think that's the argument I mean you have to like look at I mean there's a lot of exercise scientists that I'm sure it would have arguments one way or the other which is interesting so they can't all agree

right you know there's a lot of arguments yeah you know it also depends would have arguments one way or the other, which is interesting, so they can't all agree. You know, there's a lot of arguments. But you know, it also depends on what kind of exercise you're doing. You know, are you a weightlifter, or are you a marathon runner? You know, because we had Courtney Doe Walter on the podcast once, and she does ultra marathons.

And you know, my friend Cam Haynes, who also does ultra marathons, says like, she's like one of the toughest human beings he's ever met in his fucking life, and she exists on sugar. She eats candy and drinks beer. It's like, it's not, she's not formed in a lab. Whatever willpower that she has that allows her to,

she's beaten people, what she does, like these 250 mile runs, where the second place person is like eight hours behind her. Wow. Which is just bananas. Yeah, that's amazing. Because the idea of like you could run 250 miles and then the second place, it takes them eight hours longer than you to run those 250 miles. Wow.

That's got to be genetic slightly miles. Wow. Yeah. That's gotta be genetic slightly too. I mean, it's gotta be like the VO2 max is pretty high. I don't know, genetic. It's body type for sure. You're not gonna get like a six foot five, 300 pound man that can do that. Sure.

Because your form physically can't really, there's so much of a physical energy requirement to move that much mass in defiance of gravity over long periods of time most of those people that are ultra marathon runners are very slight small people mm-hmm like cam when he gets ready to do ultra marathons he loses like quite a bit of weight mmm you know like at one point in time he was like in the high 180s and now he's down to like 160 and he'll get even lower than that.

How tall is he? He's my height so he's like 5'8", 5'7". So he'll get down to like 150 something when he's going to do like a 250 mile race. But it's like a, that kind of mindset is a crazy mindset. That's like a very unusual punishment that you're going to put yourself through voluntarily. When Chris died, Chris Christopherson died, it hit me real hard and I went and ran. I just kept running like Forrest Gump and I ran just 13. one miles. I stopped when I got half a mile half a marathon and I was worked I was like, oh man another thirteen point one miles for a marathon. That's a lot. Well you build up to it Yeah, that's the whole thing

Yeah It's like, you know Like if someone wants to work out tomorrow and they never worked it like I've done this with a lot of my comedian friends I take him to the gym. I go look we're not gonna break you If you're gonna work out with me, it's gonna be very easy. And you're gonna maybe wanna do more, but I'm not gonna let you.

Like, I'm gonna make you do a certain amount of pushups, a certain amount of body weight squats, we're gonna do a few of these and a few of those, and then we're done. We're done. And I don't want you to be tired. I want you to be just a little energized. And then two days later, we'll do it again.

And then we'll do it again, and then we'll do it again, and then we'll do it again. And then after a while, your. And then we'll do it again. And then we'll do it again. And then after a while, your body gets stronger. Like now I'm gonna require more of you. Now we're gonna actually exert. And now, okay, now you've got some muscle mass. Now you've got some endurance. Now we're gonna build on top of that.

The way I describe it, I'm like, you're building a mountain, one layer of paint at a time. Wow. That's a good way to describe it. Do you do the scans, the body scans? Or Dexa scans? Dexa scan. I have in the past. I haven't done one in a long time I just found this guy Colin Anderson 287 pounds did a hundred mile whoa That's crazy. Do like to break the world record. I like it says ultra large. That's the name of the little documentary

So he's 280 pounds and he ran an ultra marathon Wow That must have been hell That's incredible weight. He lost at the end of it either. Oh my god. I bet he lost 50 pounds How much weight did he lose? spoiler alert spoiler to the end Find out skip ahead spoiler alert spoiler to the end Wait gained weight no 297 it says what did he weigh before it's 287 is what I was seeing well How's that possible 10 pound weight gain after a hundred pounds or a hundred miles around?

What the fuck did you eat, bro? The whole time like right like every Five minutes Incredible though, I guess I guess oh yeah your body probably is doing everything it can to keep the water I mean I can only guess yeah, that's pretty wild that is interesting to be that I didn't expect to see yeah Yeah, to be that big around a hundred miles is very very unusual. Most of those guys are super slight and you know they just keep on trucking. Yeah, did you read that book a long time ago it came out? I think it was called Born to Run but it was like about the Tarahumara tribe. They run barefoot and I don't remember what it was actually called but it was really

interesting. Yeah they run through the mountains. It's like a South American tribe right? Yeah South American or even Mexican I can't remember. Is it Mexican? I don't remember but the Tarahumara is what they're called and they would run barefoot. Wild. What the fuck and and apparently that you know They they would they would also run which was interesting. They would run happily But they would have smiles on their faces and they'd be light and that in They said that that was that helped them sort of lightly graced themselves through the the mindset that they had when they ran helped Help them to outperform everyone else Well, they're probably doing it all the time and in in order to be able to run that much, again,

you're building, slowly but surely building on top of what you had before. Right. You can't stop. It's like if someone wants to just get out today and run a marathon, don't fucking do it. Right. You're going to blow your ankles apart.

You're going to fuck your knees up. You're going to ruin your hips. Don't do that. Don't do that. Run around the block. And then the next day, maybe run twice around the block. But you have to get better the same way you got sick. Like you didn't get unhealthy in a day. You got unhealthy over the course of a long stretch of life.

Do you run? Do you like to run? No. You don't run? No. I've done it. I have a knee issue. So do you swim instead? You don't run? No, I've done it. I have a knee issue and it hurts me. So do you swim instead? I swim, I do, but most of my cardiovascular exercise I do on an air dyne bike or I hit the bag.

But does the bike hurt your knee too? No. No, it doesn't. No, because you're not pounding. Right, there's no impact. I've had knee surgeries from years of martial arts. I have like one knee that has meniscus missing. And I can run.

I do, but I just don't think it's the best thing, you know, for someone who's got like then again, there's Goggins who has like fucking zero meniscus and he's basically bone on bone just running around, but he gets a bunch of operations. He's on like seven or eight operations to try to correct his knees that are fucked up from doing this. They put plates in there and shit, and he wears them out, like it's nuts. I respect the guy, but that's a lot.

Oh yeah, I mean he's ruining his body, and he's hoping that science will get to a point where they could repair all that shit without him having to get a knee replacement. He's like placing it on that. Well it's like you can get a knee replacement now, right, and you'll be in significantly less pain. But once science comes around, well they're getting closer and closer every day to being

able to completely regenerate cartilage, meniscus, and all that tissue that you have inside your knee that keeps it healthy. If you decide that you want to get a knee replacement, that kind of stops all that tissue that you have inside your knee that keeps it healthy. If you decide that you want to get a knee replacement, that kind of stops all that because now you have an artificial knee and you can't regrow a knee once you've cut your knee out. No, you can't. Yeah. And so this is why he's not doing that yet, I think. He's talked about it.

He's like, maybe someday I'll have to, but right now it's just, he'll just deal with it. Wow. You look like you have to pee, do you? No. Okay, fine. You're weaseling around a little bit because I always get sensitive to guests like if they're having to move around a little I was like oh you gotta pee? Well now let me take an assessment now. Because we're like two hours in. We are two hours in. At least. Yeah. I feel good though. Okay, cool. I don't have to pee. I just sort of like yeah I guess I've just been sitting a while. It's kind of like inspiring me. Yeah, no, I do that too.

I do that too. Yeah, but for people out there that are thinking about, like, oh, this is inspiring me, start slow. But do it again. Make sure you don't just get inspired one day. Inspiration is great. Discipline is better. You know what I did, which I loved,

is that really helped me was, like I would walk just in general, I would just do a little like jog instead of walking somewhere. I just go like, you know, just a little something. Just like this. Yeah. It's kind of like almost like this and I'd walk wherever I was going. And I started to do that every day. Just instead like, oh,, you know instead of walking to

Get my coffee in the morning. I kind of do a little job, you know and throughout the day I'd do that and eventually I started like wanting to get you go out for a run like my body just started warming up And I kind of wanted to do that concept. Yeah. Yeah same concept build it up slowly. Yeah, just do something people I'm telling you just go fucking do something find a yoga class Do something treat your body like a temple Just for your brain, you know, you got to understand that there's a connection if your body is sedentary. It's just sludge It's all just blah. It's all blocked up. Yeah, and that fucks with your mind. It's the mentally Unhealthiest people that I know are all

terribly out of shape. Yep, and I mean, you know, there is a correlation for sure. 100%, you know, this is this life. This life is you've given, you've been given this meat vehicle and you got to maintain it. It's a good band name. Meat vehicle? It probably already exists. They probably have some banging songs. It's probably a hardcore band. Definitely a good band name meat vehicle probably exists in probably some banging songs It's probably a hardcore band. It's definitely a hardcore band Wait, there's some other ones Oh biblically accurate angel. Oh

Biblically accurate angel. Have you seen what a biblically? Yeah. Yeah, they look like aliens. That's pretty cool Yeah, it was a geometric pattern. Yeah, I always like aliens. That's pretty cool. Yeah, they look like geometric patterns. I always wonder what the aliens, you know, Tucker Carlson's convinced that aliens and devils are, that's what, you know, like angels and devils and aliens are all the same thing. He thinks that they're not visiting from somewhere else, that they've always been here and that there's some sort of spiritual aspect to like the UFO encounter UAP phenomenon. Oh I see yes well there's a lot of interesting pictures that are you know drawn on cave walls. Oh yeah things like that. We've gone over a shit ton of them. And then also ancient religious art where it looks like people are in vehicles flying through the sky. I'm sure you've seen those too. I've seen those too. Yeah, like what is that? Like

what are you trying to... There's no other stuff that you're in that thing that's fantastical. Everything else is like an accurate representation of life at that time, except for these people that are in these flying things in the sky. Like, what is that? Yeah. We just don't know, unfortunately. You know, when I looked at all of the credible UFO reports, the only ones that really had no explanation, I actually asked chat GPT, of all of the credible UFO, of all the UFO reports, which ones have not in some way been

sort of explained right and which ones are the ones that are still like and the one that was not complete the one that's still sort of outstanding is the USS Nimitz yeah commander David Fravor right yeah I've had him on the podcast talk have you really yeah yeah that seems to be the most compelling. Mm hmm. There's other ones though. Ryan Graves. He's another fighter pilot and that was off the East Coast. So the Nimitz is off the coast of San Diego, but off the East Coast, they upgraded their sensors in 2014 on the fighter jets and then immediately started encountering these things that defied known physics that were in the sky and You know and these guys had these encounters with these things that were like a cube inside of a sphere. That's like

Motionless at 120 knot winds and no heat signature moving through the sky. They don't know what the fuck they are What what what do you say to the theory of the possibility that that is sort of black ops? Like the idea that the SR-71, I think. Blackbird. The Blackbird. There's a company called Skunk Works, right? And they were responsible for the declassification of that aircraft. And then I think

the F-111 or the stealth bombers and you know, but since then, and that was like 25 years ago or more, there have not been any more declassifications. Yeah, it's a good argument. I just I'm curious as to like, what, you know, what in 25 years, based on the technology that we've been able to see that makes it to modern society, how much is, you know, held back and what we don't see, you know, just interests me. And I don't know, I don't have an answer. You know, I'm not asking myself whether, you know, I don't have an answer. I'm not asking myself whether, I actually believe that it's almost unlikely that we have that technology, but because I feel like it would just take so much more than we may

be capable of to cover it up, but maybe not, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it would. I think there's a high likelihood that a lot of this stuff is ours. And I think one of the reasons for that statement is that this stuff always happens over military airspace Yeah, East Coast and West Coast like so the East Coast off the Ryan Graves stuff They're doing it over areas where these fighter jet pilots run training missions Yeah And then the same thing as the West Coast stuff like that where it's off the coast of San Diego

Which is like tons of military out there. Yeah I do believe that there's some programs that are operational. And there's a great podcast, Jesse Michaels has an amazing YouTube channel that's, he's covered this stuff like really extensively and he's a brilliant guy. He really understands it. And they were working on some anti-gravity technology in the 1960s. And most likely he continued that work. Yeah. Artificial horizon technology and stuff like that, you know, that, I mean, it's got to have come far since then.

Yeah, and there's the idea that they could hide all that stuff. No, they could never hide it. Of course they could. Of course they could. They definitely could. You're being naive. You're being naive as to how much the government can hide. No, I'm only asking the question. Not you. I don't mean you. I mean, people didn't say that. I actually pretty much, that's where I lean towards when it comes to that. I think some of it, but some of it also could be from somewhere else. And I think some of it just exhibits, like the Nimitz one, okay, this is 2004.

So this tic-tac goes from more than 50,000 feet above sea level to sea level in less than a second. Yeah. Like seven-eighths of a second. Sure. Like that's crazy. That is. That's crazy. And you're right.

What is that? And it does, it does, it changes it when you remember how long ago these things were being seen. Right. Because this is 2004. But then you go back to the 1960s if they're really working on anti-gravity technology back then, it's possible that they could have created a drone. Right. The thing is like could a human being survive inside of those things at those extreme speeds? Well the question is like what are they experiencing

in that? Because if it's a gravity device, if it's moving, if it's manipulating gravity, so it might not have G-forces at all. It might be operating in a completely different paradigm. Yeah, well, there may be sort of just, you know, trillions of alternate sort of, you know, momentum shifts in the outside protective layer that balance out whatever is happening on the inside to the point where, you know, they're using this crazy technology. That's also why the argument is that they're blurry.

Like, so a lot of the photographs of these things are blurry. It might be because they're actually existing in some sort of a gravity, like, void. And what you're seeing is not exactly what's there. You're seeing it through like a dirty windshield. I've seen some stuff. Have you? Yeah. What have you seen?

When I was in Maui, twice I've seen something that I could not explain. The one time I looked up and about nine of us were hanging out. And we all looked up at the same time to see an orange orb. And it was probably, it looked like it was a hundred yards away. Maybe two hundred, just floating, kind of observing. And then I swear it seemed like as soon as enough people saw it, it went whoosh, and

then it went whoosh, and it moved like nothing else I thought possible at the time it went out of the atmosphere and it was crazy faster than any drone and that this was back in like 2004 2005 maybe you know so it's very we were all you know young I was maybe a little teenager So it was probably like 2006, you know, but it was like it was crazy I'm telling you, you know, you know and and a lot of them happen near the ocean to yes interesting And another one I was out on Lanai and we were hanging out with some friends We were laying down on the lawn and and when you're out in Lanai on the backside of Lanai, there's no light pollution at all.

And so you have just this big giant fish bowl of stars and it's the most incredible. It's like you're sitting in a spaceship. And you feel that you're on spaceship earth at the time. Like you are on that rock hurtling through space at that point. And I saw this, we all, it scared the girls, we all saw this pulsing colored thing go from one side of the horizon to the

other, but in a very, like it was like pulsing different colors and it was like really interesting. And so you know, who knows what that could have been, but it was quite interesting. Well the vast majority of the ocean floor is unexplored. And so this is the theory is that if you were going to set up a base here to observe human beings, if you came from somewhere else, you would probably do it in the ocean, especially if you have the kind of technology that will allow them to travel here from other star systems would also allow them to not be intimidated whatsoever by the pressures. I mean that's I guess the deep pressure is what would be the

you know it's almost the opposite of being in space you know the vacuum and then you have the deep right pressure of you know that like you know. But there's videos of these things going in the water and not creating a splash Yeah, so like what is that? Is it a hologram? So is it not a physical object or are they doing something that allows them to? Not interact with any physical thing on earth like some sort of a void that they travel through So they can go through the trees This is like part of Jacques Vallée's

research too, and one of his books that was really fascinating was this woman observed this like egg shaped thing and when it took off it went through the trees, but it didn't hurt the trees. But it was on the ground like as a physical object and when it took off it went through the trees. Well I wonder if then you know we're talking about like bending space-time Yeah at that point. Are you creating some sort of like? Warp yeah, you're creating some sort of warp drive. That's the idea you know where you're just like warping space and time around right, it's a centralized location you sort of have to be, you know, use sort of the, you know, these like different sort of exotic forms of matter and having an understanding

of exotic matter, which we're now just starting to understand that there are like, are these exotic matter types that, you know, that work in these weird ways. But as we, if you read about it now, the only information available is that we're only cracking the surface of the understanding of these types of matter. Maybe we are. Hundreds of thousands of years away from understanding that. But I mean, that's that old saying that any technology that's sufficiently advanced

is indistinguishable from magic. Is it Carl Sagan said that? I forget who said that. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, if you're looking at something from a thousand years from now, it would seem like magic. If we continue, we don't blow ourselves up, and science and AI continue to figure out

more compelling uses of universal energy, like whatever background energy that we have. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows what human beings will be capable of? So you gotta imagine if something's visiting us from somewhere else, especially if they have artificial super intelligence. If they've traversed this journey that we're on if they've gotten to the point where whatever we're

Currently investigate whatever they're working on right now in terms of like superintelligent AI What if they've gone through that and there are a thousand years more advanced all that stuff would be probably Simple for them to be able to go through the water to have your Transmedium crafts that are capable of flying in the air through the water. Right. Well, the interesting question for ourselves is how do we get to a place as a society to where we can trust in our science, we can trust to say that we trusted enough to fund it. Well, you get that we trusted enough to fund it.

You know, that's not trusting the science that the problems that human beings that are in possession of the science. Well, but that's what I mean. Like how do we restore faith in that? And, and because there are there, you know, it's not all bullshit. There is real, you know, like we, we wouldn't exist where we are without the science that has brought us to where we are. Yeah, technology. Technology.

And so understanding and trusting and figuring out how to restore faith in certain institutions that we have, because we need them to survive and to keep going, you know. So it's like not tearing down the airplane while it's falling. You have to repair the airplane from inside, you know, and then keep it flying if you can, you know. So is there a way to like, right the ship while we're in it? I think the problem is a lot of this stuff is military funding, right? So a lot of the applications for any sort of like super advanced technology is gonna be weapon systems, and that's what everybody's terrified of. What they're terrified of is that you're going to develop more efficient ways to kill

people and that's really the only way these things get funded you know they're not gonna... I know that's the problem. I'm just saying I'm like well how do we how do we switch it so that we can have people in power that really are looking out for the future of humanity and then have people that actually want that, because some people are gonna have to take sacrifices for that, you know? In a way, and I mean, people high up are gonna have to say,

well, I'm gonna have to get paid a little less because this, you know. It's a great struggle, Lucas. Yeah less because this you know it's a great struggle Lucas yeah it's a great struggle it's the great struggle of like people in power you know don't necessarily deserve power and the kind of people that you want running the world aren't interested in the job mostly yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. Well, hey brother, I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you very much for being here. I appreciate you having me, Joe. And I encourage everybody to go see you live because you're fucking amazing. It was really an incredible performance at the McConaughey thing. And I wish you all the best, man. I wish you too.

It's been cool being your friend too. It has. Enjoy talking to you. I enjoyed talking to you too. All right. That was fun. thank you. Tell everybody where they could find you, where's the best place to find your music. Yeah, well on all the platforms of course we were there and we got a tour posted. We're gonna come live. Live in concert, are you going everywhere mean we're about to put out new dates to for the fall we're gonna be all over the East Coast the West Coast we're gonna be everywhere but yeah sorry Kansas City that shit sold out yeah yeah that was the ones coming up Charlottesville Virginia Allentown Pennsylvania oh yeah those are May yeah yeah yeah so there's

plenty of stuff coming up Montana is gonna be great. Big sky. Big sky. Park City, Utah. Yeah, there you go. Wyoming. All right. Yeah, man Thank you. Thank you. It was fun. I enjoyed it. All right. Bye everybody.