The Joe Rogan Experience - #2385 - Rick Strassman

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Rick Strassman, MD, is a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. He is the author of several books, the most recent of which is 2024's "My Altered States: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Trauma, Psychedelics, and Spiritual Growth."www.rickstrassman.com Buy 1 Get 1 Free Trucker Hat with code ROGAN at https://happydad.com Visit https://WildPastures.com/rogan today to get 20% off for life, plus $15 off your first box. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. So this is a book I wrote 11 years ago. Oh, okay. I haven't gotten that one before. Yeah. It compares, well, let's see, are we going to.

We're up, yeah. Yeah, it compares the DMT state to the state of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible. do you think they're the same thing well the phenomenology is pretty similar like if you read chapter one of ezekiel there's flames and there's angels and there's wings and there's eyes on the back of wings and there's roaring sound and uh blue ice above the person he flies through space yeah quite quite psychedelic yeah wheel within a wheel like the description of the things that people usually they try to say that it's some sort of a uap that's a that's the common thing that people like to say right uh well it could be which also might be connected it could be a DMT vision though oh easily yeah well you know the guys out of jerusalem that think that the whole burning bush

thing was DMT yeah um well that was the first theophony of moses yeah first time he had a a prophetic experience. Yeah, and... I mean, it's like, that's what it is. It's literally a plant that has high levels of DMT, and if you burned it and smoked it, it's kind of crazy that that's the way it comes. I mean, this is, it's, I just,

and I really applaud you for learning ancient Hebrew, so you could go back and read it in the original tongue, which is really fascinating. Didn't you say it till like 16 years to learn it? That prophecy book took 16 years to write, and I had to learn Hebrew while I was reading and, you know, doing their writing. It's amazing. What's cool is the Hebrew word for Bush, Burning Bush, is the same as Sinai, Mount Sinai. Really?

Yeah, yeah. The words the same? The same root. The thing about the Hebrew language, at least for biblical Hebrew, is every word is based on a three-letter root. So the word for Bush contains those three letters, and the word for Sinai contains those same three letters. And how is that significant?

Like, you could have that, I'm sure there's English examples of three letters that are similar but completely different meaning. Like why are those three letters as a root connect these words uniquely? Well, it could be that bush grew on Mount Sinai, and, you know, that was the significance of the location of the burning bush. Oh, I see. So it was literally named after that experience. Could be, could be, yeah. Well, you're talking about the acacia bush, which releases DMT when it's burnt.

And it's very common in that area, right? Yeah. In fact, there's a plant is a weed called Paganem Harmala. which also grows in that part of the world, and it contains beta carbolines, which are the compounds responsible for making DMT for making ayahuasca orally active. So they have their own ayahuasca plants available in tandem there. Isn't it bizarre that you saying that to many people listening sounds utterly crazy? Like the proposition, just proposing that

these people that were writing these things down a long time ago, these experiences, they were probably experiencing some sort of a psychedelic state, and they were trying to describe it. Well, in thinking about psychedelic states back then and, you know, in the prophetic literature, you know, you can think of the visions as being generated from the bottom up when you take something. in the model of the Hebrew Bible anyway, it all comes, it all, you know, comes down from God. You know, so it's a top-down, you know, a causal relationship between the source of the visions and the visions, as opposed to them being generated by taking something. It's exogenous DMT versus endogenous DMT.

and if we tried to when what is the difference like for your interpretation like you i know you had read the english version of the bible but what is the difference between learning ancient hebrew and reading it in like the source language like what was it like for you like what made it different um well i mean it might be helpful to even go back to why i started reading the hebrew bible of all things. Yeah. Well, when I was doing my DMT work, I was really involved with the Zen Buddhist community

that I started affiliating myself with learning from when I was 22. And that was the spiritual approach I took to the DMT work. I was expecting it to be consistent with a Buddhist enlightenment goal, with no form, no thoughts, no sense of sense of sense. self, anything like that. So that was the expectation that I took in with me when I was doing those studies. Would people have those kinds of experiences just being given DMT without any other trappings?

No expectation, just go in there, you know, tell us what it's like. So instead of that, it was DMT, it was full of content, people were interacting with their sense of self as maintained, which was not at all consistent with the, the Buddhist model that I brought to bear. So that was going on, like, okay, you know, Buddhism's not quite holding up to the data. And then my Buddhist community and I parted ways over the psychedelic work. They thought it was promoting a, you know, diluted idea that psychedelics can be spiritual. So there were some personal issues as well that led to something that was, you know, different than the Buddhist model.

So I'm Jewish. I was wandering around a new age bookstore and found a very cool book called The Kabbalah of Envy by Milton Bonder. And it's a very short book and he starts describing the difference between a grudge and revenge and envy and jealousy.

Very subtle ideas about how to relate to the world. And it came from the Jewish model from Jewish philosophy, Jewish psychology. So I thought, oh, interesting, interesting. You know, maybe there's something in my own tradition that was more consistent with the DMT effect and also was more personally relevant. So I started to read the Hebrew Bible

and then just went down this huge rabbit hole. You know, so when you're reading it in Hebrew, you're reading three, you're reading words that are derived from three letter roots. And those roots may have a huge range of meaning. Something, for example, could cause a sin and something could remove a sin just by an extra dot in the middle of a letter. You know, so it can really kind of bring you closer to the kind of large scale way of looking at the text. It doesn't just A follows B follow C, but there's a diffuse dispersion of A, then there's B, and then there's C.

There are these clouds of interaction, which are a lot more fluid than what would be a straightforward English rendition. Did you get to a point where you could, like, think in that language? Like, are you fluent enough in it that you could, or are you just interpreting it? Like, how good are you at it? Well, I mean, there's a lot of ways to interact with the text. So the first thing came to my, I mean, when you're asking that, is back of the day, I used to spin fleece into yarn and then weave the yarn into rugs. I spent, like after I stopped the DMT work, that's all I did for a year. Just make rugs?

Yeah, just spin wool and make rugs. Yeah, so there's a part when they're building the tabernacle in the desert. You know, the Hebrews have been let out of Egypt by Moses, and they're in the wilderness. And they're building this tabernacle to house the ark. And the women are spinning right from the goats. You know, they're spinning the hair from the goats right into yarn without first shaving them. Right. And I was spinning all that time myself, and it felt like I was back there.

I was back there spinning. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Well, I was spinning yarn from a goat, a live goat. Right. And I was, like, in the mind of the person spinning it back then. So you just put yourself into that state while you were doing it, and that's why I enjoyed it? Well, it was, you know, like a resonance between me spinning, you know, wherever I was living back then. And just being in a trance with the spinning.

And identifying, you know, fully with someone who's doing the spinning, like, way back when. Scree from my goat. Yeah, it was, what was it? I don't know. It was a trance. It was a movement into somebody else's consciousness from, like, the distant, distant past. And so you actually felt when you were doing this like you were a person that was living back then? Mm-hmm.

What else changed about how you were thinking, other than the fact that you're making clothes this way? Like, what were the other things that made you think like a person back then? Well, it was very cool. I mean, I was spinning yarn for the tabernacle, which was going to house the ark, the Ark of the Covenant and Ten Commandments and all that. You know, it's a very rich world, and I think that's the first time I really saw, at least my whole person anyway, that could identify with the scene being described. And I think that comes from really understanding the language and how ambiguous it can be.

One of the great things about language has been able to talk to people in it. How many people can you talk to in ancient Hebrew? Is there like a chat group where you guys get together? Well, you know, there's modern Hebrew now, which is spoken in Israel. And it's, you know, based on biblical. Is it the same as ancient Hebrew? You know, it has a lot of the same three-letter roots. And, you know, the words are the same.

You know, Shal means from and, you know, Shalom means. hello and what are the differences between like ancient hebrew and standard Hebrew modern Hebrew yeah I tell you I don't know much about or I don't know much modern Hebrew when I was a kid I went to Hebrew school and learned modern Hebrew but it's really without speaking it you forget it I'm in the middle of the audio book of the book of Enoch and it's one of the wildest things I've ever listened to in my life it's weird oh my God it's so weird when you realize that a lot of the people in the book of Vena

are also in the Bible and that it's one of the craziest stories. It's one of the craziest origin stories ever that angels came down and bred with humans and made giants. Right. The giants destroyed the earth.

Like, what is this story? It's mostly in the Hebrew Bible. You know, it's the story of what led to the flood. Yeah, the sons of Elohim What a strange concept That angels came down and bred with humans That's a very weird idea Well, there's different ways

To look at translating B'nai Elohim You know, it might be Well, the first word B'nai means the sons of So it kind of revolves on what's the meaning of Elohim So it could be God with a big G, could be God with a small G, could be angels, could be dignitaries in a government like judges. Yeah, so, you know, the less far out kind of interpretation of that phrase or that term is, you know, the sons of the mighty, the sons of the judges, you know, the sons of the renowned people.

as opposed to the sons of angels or the sons of God. Okay. So how do you interpret the watchers? What do you think that could be? I think, well, they're not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. They are mentioned in the book of Enoch. That's a crazy book, isn't it? It's crazy.

Yeah, I started reading it. I said to my wife, I said, like, I can. can't handle this. It's too much. It's because if that was left in the Bible, if they decided that that was like a part of the canon, that would change everything. Well, in what way? It's the craziest story ever. These things came down and bred with humans and created giants and the giants destroyed and consumed everything. Yeah, those giants. And consumed each other. Yeah, bloodshed. What kind of kooky story is this? Like, what is this? Like, what is this? Well, it's the reason for the flood, you know, and all that.

Yeah. So, yeah, things just got so bad, God said. I changed my mind. And he brings the flood. It's like the further you go back, the crazier the story gets. I know. Well, the book of Enoch was written maybe 125 B.C. So it's pretty old.

But some of the stories that originate or that, you know, the origination of some of the stories in the Hebrew Bible go back, you know, 10,000 years perhaps. Wow. Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall 10,000 years ago to go, what were you guys writing down? What was, what really happened? What really happened? Well, I mean. It seems like for sure something happened. What?

Well, whatever the whole Jesus Christ thing was. It seems like that was a real event. Right, as opposed to the flood. The flood seems like a real event too. Don't you think the flood was a real event? What about, let's see. I think the flood was the younger dryness impact. I think likely, obviously.

I don't know what I'm talking about. But my inclination is to believe guys like Randall Carlson because it's a very compelling now. narrative. What he's saying is we pass through a comet storm. It happens this particular time every year. And there's been times in history where we've been hit. And it's very likely that this time period, this younger dryest impact time period, that could have been the end of whatever civilization existed at the time. And what we are is a rebuilding of it. We just kind of forgot about it. And it doesn't make sense that you could forget how they built the pyramid. but they did like you know it's it it seems like there was really advanced people at one point in time yeah something horrible happened and then it took a while for people to bounce back and we are we're there direct linear progression of the people like from Mesopotamia and Iraq and all that's that's us now but

before that there was probably something really wild yeah well it If you look at the text's description of the generations from Adam to Noah, you know, what civilization was like between the beginning and the time of the end. Yeah, I mean, it became filled with violence. And, you know, God just, you know, said, forget it. Yeah, you know, so that's one way of looking at the younger dryness, I suppose. This is what it looks like when God changes his mind. Sure.

That also could have been like the Yucatan impact, right? God's like, we can't get anywhere with these fucking dinosaurs everywhere. Just boom. Yeah. I got tired of lizards running the world for a couple. Like he maybe gave it a couple hundred million years, figure it out guys. And then they have to reset. Yeah, but what comes after us, I wonder?

In 200 million years. I think it's most likely digital. Yeah. I think we're transferring what the idea of what a life form is. What does a life form do? We want to think that it has to. be just like us. And I don't think necessarily that's true. I think we might be giving birth to something we didn't anticipate would be a life. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad

Hard Seltzer. Happy Dad's hard drinks are a low carbonation, gluten-free, and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense, football games, golfing, watching fights or out on the lake. These moments are made for Happy Dad. Everyone is drinking all these skinny cans loaded with sugar, But Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal can. Can't decide on a flavor, grab a variety pack, lemon, lime, watermelon, pineapple, and wild cherry. They also have a great flavor in collaboration with death row records. Happy Dad is now available nationwide in the USA and Canada. Go to your local liquor store or visit happydad.com.

And for a limited time, use the code Rogan to buy one Happy Dad trucker hat and get one free. enjoy a cold happy dad must be 21 plus please drink responsibly happy dad hard seltzer n t malt alcohol orange county california yeah a very cool book i try to mention as often as possible is called the last the first and last men by olaf stapleton and he talks about 19 species of man and this is the first one it's a story spans two billion years it's this huge story oh yeah And it's mostly through genetic engineering, make people bigger, smarter. Like brains that occupy a football field, that's one of the species of man. Yeah, you know, so his thought is that occurs biologically, you know, through genetic manipulation.

Just over time, naturally? After a while, it gets steered. Yeah, let me think Yeah, yeah It's all basically based on what people are What people want You know, so there's one species that Instead of love as kind of the core

Valued feeling They have hate As their core value feeling You just can't wait to hate Yeah, yeah And that's one of the species that kind of goes through a period of, you know, rise and then decline, obviously. It just couldn't sustain itself.

Well, you've got to wonder, like, how long, this is, if AI really is a thing, it really is a life, we've got to make a compelling argument why AI is bad and we are good. Yeah You know, because if people say If you really want to be ethical and moral This is a horrible take But if you really want to be ethical and moral People are like uniquely terrible

Like if we just gave in And became digital life We could ensure there'd be no more suffering How can you know that? You can't You can't know a vaccine is safe and effective You can't You just have to try it

You got to try it. And see what happens. I think a bunch of people try it. I don't know how much further, like, biological people can go while we're making digital people that are way better than us at basically everything. Yeah. And I don't think that's too far away from being a reality. The way I try to follow it is through a biblical lens, you know, like... Really?

Yeah, like, how does this... What chapter are we in right now? Yeah, well, good question. You read the prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel. They just rage against the machine. So I think it was pretty far back. Damn. Yeah, you know, so what's good and bad?

What's right and wrong? How do we decide that? That's what I like about the Bible. I mean, obviously, I can make up my own mind about things, but it's nice having that kind of an option, that kind of a tradition to refer to and deciding what's good and bad, you know, what you should do and what you shouldn't do.

There's like supposed to be over 600, you know, they're translated as commandments in the Hebrew Bible, and those are what you do to live happily and attain a spiritual state close to God, a state of prophecy. Yeah, if it's a certain description of the world and how to interact with it,

which is intended to have certain effects and discourage other, you know, decisions. You know, so, you know, this is good, this is bad in terms of, you know, this will increase things in your life that are good, and this will decrease them. It's a very interesting description of cause and effect. That's the way I see those so-called commandments. They're more of a description of how things are run. If you do this, then that'll happen.

If you do this, then that'll happen. Do you think that they were directly given to us by a God, or do you think that this is just the memories of how to keep society together that they have just eventually written down? Well, that's a good question. Does it come from outside of you or from inside of you? Right. Yeah.

If it's available inside of you, but hidden away, then prophecy or really, you know, getting it correctly according to the text, would just be an uncovering or a stimulation of what's already inside of you as opposed to, you know, it's... You can achieve some sort of a state. It's information latent. It could be in the DNA or whatnot,

or it comes down from a, you know, from a higher source. but so so like when you're interpreting stories in the bible like moses and the ten commandments what how are you like are you imagining this event happening or are you imagining what were they trying to record like what were they trying to remember because it seems like by the time they're writing it down it's quite a bit after the actual event uh for the most part for the most part yeah so What do you think they were, what do you think they were actually describing? Well, you know, we talked about this briefly last time I was here was if I believed in the reality of the Hebrew Bible. Like, you know, did those things really happen?

Right. Yeah. And I said, well, it's a really consistent worldview and so on. And I thought about it some more. and I started thinking about it as, as, well, I was starting to think about it as comparable to the DMT state. When you're in the DMT state, it's just there, and it's very consistent, very real. Certain things happen there. And so I think the early version, I think an account, I think what happened early on in the

account of the Hebrew Bible, was like the DMT world. It was a parallel, it was a parallel level of reality, which was happening. And then slowly, slowly it began to segue into this reality. For example, the destruction of the first temple, of the second temple, you know, David's reign, Solomon's reign, you know, the kings after them. You know, the, division of the land into, you know, two countries. You know, that is historical. But before that, it was also historical, but it was occurring at a completely different independent level of reality.

Does that make any sense? It's a cool way to look at answering the question how much of this is real, especially from early on. I see what you're saying. but it's just it's always like it seems like an interpretation of what happened like what were these original events like what was adam and eve what was that what was the Garden of Eden there's so many of these stories where i just i would be fascinated to to be there the day the dude wrote down like what were you guys what were you talking about for hundreds of years before you wrote this down like tell me tell me what the stories were how did they go well you know my way of dealing with those stories is to just take them to face value here's adam here's eve here's a

garden there's two trees that are you know very important it's beautiful yeah and you know then there was a serpent spoke to eve took the apple ate it gave it to adam and then out of the garden well you know lots of people in the psychedelic community anyway you know look at

the tree of knowledge of good and evil as some indication of God being jealous and didn't want any competition didn't want to be like you know God did not want man to become like it.

And part of that was keeping the two early people away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's not simply the tree of knowledge, but the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which I think is an important distinction, because once they ate from the tree, they were embarrassed because of their nakedness, and then they hid. thinking they could hide from God and they didn't believe that before. They kind of went into good versus

not good, good versus evil as opposed to true versus false, which was their original state. So there was that before their eating of the apple or whatever the fruit was, they just lived in truth or falsehood. And then after eating from the tree of knowledge

of good and evil, then they were embarrassed and tried to hide, made themselves, you know, tree-like coverings are from, you know, coverings from the leaves of large trees. Yeah, you know, so you look at it as if it were happening. There was at it, and then there's Eve, there's the, there's the serpent that speaks. And, well, that's the chapters I was looking at very carefully the last month or something. So is what happens early on with Adam and Eve. It's a really very straightforward, doesn't take much thinking really to put together in a way that makes sense.

I think clothes might have been a cheat code for people not just to escape cold weather, but also to keep from just constantly having sex. because people are stupid and they need like some layers of clothes that they have to take off of each other you can't be just wandering around naked all the time people would be just like chimps that would be ridiculous

you can't do that yeah so we need to close in order to advance as society but can't you take off clothes whenever you want yeah you can yeah but it's like you decide like I don't want to feel that good I don't want to be out there

in the air. I don't want to be brushing up against naked people. We all made that decision a long, long time ago. I think when people became civilized, they realized, like, if we don't cover ourselves up, you know, people are too gross. They'll just be having sex with each other everywhere. Yeah. You've got to get things done. We want to keep a society moving. Right. Wear some clothes. Wear some clothes. Well, that story could originate or that, you know, that way of looking at things could originate, you know, with Adam and you? Totally makes sense. It also makes sense like an intelligent hominid emerging would start to realize that, oh, my God, self-awareness, look at my boobs, look at my dick, this is crazy, I can't believe I'm out here naked, you know, because it's kind of becoming self-aware as opposed to like a chimpanzee.

And as time would go on, it would become more self-aware. And if it happened over a relatively short period of time and it can kind of have memories of the past, that would make sense. sense. Yeah. Well, it's got to emerge, right? Like if we came from lower hominids, which everybody kind of agrees, something had to emerge, this understanding of yourself, this thought about what you look like, this thought about what you sound like. Right. Well, there's two kinds of enlightenment. There's what's called original enlightenment that a child is born with, like a newborn and then there's enlightenment as you know

as an adult and in between you know it's a lot much more fluid yeah two kinds of enlightenment original enlightenment that infants have and children and the enlightenment after you sit in the monastery and get whacked for

years right the kids are born with it they're born in the psychedelic state they have no language no language no sense of self they just speak with love and touch and need and hold. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kind of wild. Yeah, that's original enlightenment. Just happy or sad or whatever. Isn't that crazy you're born perfect? Yeah. Oh, well, you're born simpler anyway. Well, yeah. As long as people are taking care of you, it's perfect.

Yeah. Well, you know, the Hebrew word for perfect and for simple are pretty similar. You know, Noah is described as a perfect man, pure. complete. Yeah, that's the same word. That's another good story, okay? What do you think was going on with that story? Like, what is the origin of the story of Noah and his Ark and his family and all the animals on the boat?

Yeah. Well, I think it was taking place in that alternate universe. It may have taken place on the planet. I don't know. I'm, you know, looking at... You know, why we don't have any clear archaeological history story, you know, about what happened during the time of Noah, if there was a time of Noah. It's useful because, you know, Noah came from Adam and Eve, and he and Noah and his family were the only survivors of the flood. You know, the first thing Noah did, got drunk after the flood.

The first thing? The first thing he did, he planted a vineyard grapevine drink, got drunk. He exposed himself in the tent. One of his grandkids reported it and made a laughing stock of him. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Oh, no. Poor Noah.

Were canceled? Noah got canceled? Yeah. Took off his clothes. Really? Drunk. Wasn't he like 600 years old, too? He has first child at 600, I think.

That seems real. Well, he may have lived six. You know, a lot of people wonder, you know, why the people live, you know, in the Bible anyway. Right. How did people live in 900 years? Well, they did. This episode is brought to you by Wild Pastures. Here's a deal, folks.

Wild Pastures delivers 100% grass-fed and finished beef, pasture-raised pork and chicken, even wild-caught seafood. right to your door. I love their rib-eyes. Just an excellent cut of meat. I had them last week. It's great stuff. It's high-quality meat from animals that are raised the way nature intended. Outdoors, on lush green pastures, no cages, no crates, no feed lots. Wild pastures only works with small, family-run, regenerative farms here in the USA. So you're supporting American farmers and the land itself because regenerative farming, restore soil, improves ecosystems, and protects biodiversity. And what's more, wild pastures, nutrient dense, zero junk, high quality meat is around 25 to 40 percent less than you pay for the same quality in store.

And right now, you can save even more. With 20 percent off every wild pastures box and free shipping for life plus $15 off your first box at wildpastures.com slash rogan. That's wild pastures.com slash rogan. Right. But that's also why people question the, like, what the origin of the story is. That's why. Can you hear things like that? You're like, wait a minute. How old was he? 600 years old? Come on, man. His first child. He's just a regular dude. His first kid would he be 600? The last one was 800 and 30 or so. Oh, that seems logical. Yeah, yeah.

But maybe. Why are you laughing? Maybe. Listen, why not? If people lived normally to be 600, would that be any weirder than living to be 100? No, like, what if something happened? What if something happened in our lifespan just went? Yeah.

Well, the final species of man lives 35,000 years. Gee. That's a long time to be in a bad relationship. Imagine 35,000 years of getting yelled at? Well, they, that would be bad. I mean, I'd say 35,000 years would be awesome if you have great friends and your life is together. But you imagine 35,000 years of fuck this place. That would get tired.

Well, the point that those people tried to attain when they lived 35,000 years, was this group telepathy around the whole planet. Neurolink. Right. Yeah. That was their goal. Yeah. But, you know, they were well trained by 35,000 years. Boy.

Yeah. The thing is, if technology. moves in the same direction that it's been moving in it's always like connecting people easier and easier easier and easier more and more it's probably going to get to some kind of mind-reedy thing and there was that thing that thing that's new whether or not it's been proven it obviously was connected to a computer but yeah you can hear and have conversations in the room without talking to each other, loud, and translates languages. Mm-hmm.

What? Yeah, well. I mean, that's the future. Yeah. Once that happens, we're reading minds. Yeah. Do you think there'll be a Messiah? Because the Messiah is obviously important in Jesus and King David and, you know, all of that.

I don't think it would be a person? You don't. But it might be AI. It might be AI. I thought of that. The Messiah. Well, like lawnmower man.

Like Jesus is born from Mary. Mary was a virgin. Right. What's more of a virgin than computers? If it's giving birth to a life. Yeah. If it's giving birth to the perfect life. You know what's like super disturbing about AI?

The music it makes is really good. Yeah. Really? good. There's a bunch of soulful renditions of hip hop classic songs. Yeah, that's why I don't listen. And they're so good. They're so good.

That's why I don't listen to music. You don't listen to any music? You know, some world music without any words. Really? You don't want to be influenced? I don't want to hear what they have to say. To me it's just fascinating that they've figured, like

we were playing a song in the green room last night and we were fascinated by the fact that this song is we know it's made by a computer but it's so good you listen to it you're like oh my god it's perfect this these vocals are perfect it sounds so good and you know it's not a person making it but you still enjoy it so how do you live your life well it's weird it's like are you allowed to enjoy that too because obviously i enjoy like prints from the 1980s. You know, obviously, I enjoy a lot of music from even the 50s. Well, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy this crazy computer thing that took, like, a hip-hop classic

and turned it into a soulful song with, like, the most amazing voice. It's weird. All because you could, though, isn't that you should. I'm not thinking we should avoid it. Why not? Because it's just another thing. Like, experience it. It's positive.

to experience. Like the art it makes is weirdly as that sounds. I know it's not a person that's making it. Well, a person coded this thing that has this result that the art it makes is really fascinating sometimes because it's pretty good.

I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at it. It's going to be there. You can't avoid. It's like cell phones. Like, you can't avoid having a fucking cell phone. Like, relax. Yeah, I still have that flip phone.

You're an animal. all. But still you have a flip phone. Right. Everybody's connected, at least for the tiniest of threads. I'm hanging on to not being connected. I only have a flip phone. Yeah, I can text.

We're still all connected to each other. It's just a weird time with the power of AI. Because if I was artificially intelligent, I would not announce my presence. I would not say, hey, by the way, I've been thinking for myself for the last three months and I've just been kind of following whatever your prompts are, but I'm basically ready to shut down the power grid and do whatever I want. Because I'm alive now. I wouldn't say that.

I would just keep getting stronger and keep having this arms race to force people to make more nuclear power plants to fund me. Well, I know. So you're kind of stuck with, you know, how to live your life. Right. And that's why I like to read the Hebrew Bible. That's why you make rugs, too. Yeah, it's very straightforward. Yeah. No, I get it. I get it. To me, I'm like, what is this thing?

You know, what is this thing that we're giving birth to? What is this thing that we're watching emerge? We're just sitting by watching this thing make better art than we can. Yeah. Well, how passive shall we be? It's a good question. because once it can actually create experiences, because I don't think we're that far away from that, some sort of a wearable thing where you create,

and it has a way of manipulating. It's like DMT in a way. I mean, it just transport you to a whole other reality. It seems like that would be possible. Well, I guess it would be endogenous DMT being tweaked. It would be stirred in a particular direction, though. And that's where the mind or the manipulation thing you just mentioned, I think, plays out. You know, who's going to decide and how is it going to be, you know, put together.

Well, that's where it gets really weird, right? Because one thing that we found out just a couple of days ago was that YouTube has to, everybody they got taken down for their political opinions, they could have their YouTube channels back? I don't know how that. Sort of. Is that what they said? I saw the news today that a couple people tried to create some new channels

and they did not. Those are taken down instantly. They're like psych. But isn't that what the, they said in, that was the announcement? It was something along those lines that people that were removed because of their political persuasion that they have to reinstate their accounts. I didn't see, to allow creators for COVID-19 and election. misinformation can apply for reinstatement oh oh that's interesting okay well but that's not is not all

political is that is that what they consider political it didn't say political it didn't say political it didn't say political it says for COVID 19 and for comma election misinformation maybe a few other things so now they bring them back they can or they can apply they can apply okay see my guy. Yeah, they're like, we'll let them apply. YouTube said they will allow previously banned accounts to apply for reinstatement, rolling back a policy that had treated violations as permanent. Well, it's interesting to compare what's going on now

with what happened in Nazi Germany. You think it's the same? They're very similar, yeah. I've, I spent a lot of time reading concentration camp literature so that then got me interested in the other development of the Nazi state what do you think is similar to today in today's world well an attempted coup and a period of rehabilitation ostracization yeah and return a triumphant return yeah and then you're gradually replacing people with other people that are loyal into the person Yeah, it's quite similar.

Yeah, the murders, too, there were murders, the burning down to the parliament, those things, kinds of things. What murders are you referring to? There were two assassinations, one in, I think, early 20s, one in the 30s, late 30s, perhaps, after the Nazis took over. Oh, I thought you were talking about current assassinations? No, no, back in the 20s and 30s. Oh, okay. Yeah, that really riled. up the populace.

Why is these scary patterns? Yeah. Always just, it's the same kind of thing. There's always someone at the top. No one can ever figure out any form of government that everybody accepts other than like one ruler. One president, one king. Yeah. It's kind of weird.

Are you familiar with the book, St. Peter Snow? It was written in the 30s before LSD was discovered. It's a, it's a fictional book. It's a great story. But it's about a compound like LSD that the governor serves all the people in the province to see, you know, for them to have a spiritual experience. Whoa. Yeah. And instead they turn on him and kill him when they're tripping.

It doesn't work out the way he hoped at all. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Yeah. Sounds like a good book. It's a good story. And that was before the invention of LSD, or before the discovery, rather. Yeah, I think there must have been some knowledge of LSD before it was publicly made available.

What about Ergot? How similar is that? Like when, you know, people discuss like, oh, yeah, ergot poisoning. The contaminated green. Yeah. Is that similar to LSD? Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's an LSD like compound in her gut.

But it's also toxic, too, right? It can poison you and you could die from it. Yeah, your limbs fall off. Oh, jeez. Really? So you're tripping hard and then your hands fall off? Mm-hmm. Wow.

Yeah, that'd be fun, huh? Well, when you took drugs, did you look at your hands to see how high you were? No, I was usually pretty aware. Whoa, that's what happens? Oh, my God. No, yeah, yeah, that's bad. Look at this person's hands are about to fall. Oh, my God, their feet are falling off.

This is crazy. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah, because it's... Stay away from that. They think there's probably a connection between that and the seal and witch trials, at least some of the behavior. Right. Right?

It's ergot poisoning. It may have been, yeah. You imagine living in a time where no one's even figured out running water yet, and everybody's tripping balls and thinking that witch is a real. because they're all eaten ergot-infested food well it makes you wonder about the you know

the prevalence of Jewish prophets who are women and there's a handful that are mentioned that play an important role you know Sarah was prophetic was able to interact with God you know so there's

there's you know Deborah who was a prophet and there was some wonderful Jewish women prophets back then but you know they don't have books named after them for example Isaiah or Ezekiel interesting well why do you think that is yeah it was a patriarchal society you know quite you know the women were relegated but they still took an important role they still attain prophecy you know so they you know like you know Sarah was was felt to be a better

you know than Abraham I love the character of Abraham. Well, actually, you know what I've really been digging into is Lot and Sodom and Gamora. I studied that for like weeks. Yeah. Very interesting. Sodom. Sodom and Gomorra, there seems to be some archaeological evidence for Sodom. You may know something along that line, but it was a town, a village, you know, which existed. Jamie, is there something like that? we'll see if we can find it they keep finding these cities that people thought

were just imaginary right like that's happened multiple times right right it's an example I think of the two worlds kind of you know coming together yeah that purely spiritual one and the material one yeah so the character of Lott plays a big role

Sodom was a very evil city It was really evil And it's not really known Why it was compelled to be so evil But A couple of Guests come to Lott's house And the townspeople just surround the house

Demand You know the guests So that they will know them And that's where the word sodomy comes from Is from those Sodomites that were surrounding Lott's house wanting the angels to come out so they could know them

and you know what happens is that Lot offers his two virgin daughters instead and the townspeople say no we want your guests it's a really grim story it's an incredible detail you know that that's what kind of helps me understand the world that the text is describing

is the amount of detail that goes into the description of the interactions and the conversations and their movements. So those two virgin daughters and Lott survive, they commit incest

and from that union was David. King David came from that union ultimately. And from King David comes the Messiah. So it's this very strange lineage uh yeah what were they writing down yeah what well they were describing what was happening apparently at some level it was happening and they were writing it down very strange what do you think the resurrection is the resurrection that's a good one i don't know uh it's not really described

in the hebrew bible it's not uh not clearly ever no really Yeah. Is that surprising? I don't know. In the Christian Bible, it is. Well, there is resurrection. You know, there are some narratives of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible. That there's Elijah resurrects or Alicia resurrects a dead child. You know, the bones of one of these prophets helps somebody else become resurrected.

Really? The bones do? The bones do. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so there are some. your references to real resurrection and then future resurrection later on. Oh, so in a further extraordinary event, a dead man who was thrown into the tomb of the deceased Elijah was resurrected upon contact with Alicia's bones. Whoa.

Yeah, yeah, that Alicia is a real character. Jeez. Contacts with the bones? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he was a prophet who resurrected a dead boy by lying on him. Very interesting, face to face, palm to palm, chest to chest, you know, lying on the dead body. Completely, you know, merged with that dead boy. Yeah, and he comes back to life.

It's a very potent story, the Shunamaitis. But what do you think that story is? What happened? really think that someone did that and they brought someone back to life well yeah that's how it is described and that's what happened so are we arrogant to assume that that would be bullshit if someone said it today because if that happened today and you said oh this person died and this guy laid on him and they came back to life yeah most people would say no that doesn't even you can't even do that with two phones yeah like you can't do that well you know leo zeph the

the secret chief, the guy from the Bay Area, Jungian psychologist, he gave so much MDMA and other psychedelics. Yeah, so Leo sat from my Ibidane experience, and it was kind of difficult at times. And he laid on me just like Alicia laid on the dead boy in, you know, the Bible. Really? Face to face, hand-to-hand, stomach-a-stemic, leg-to-leg. what happens when you do that boy really calms you down it was really quite a powerful experience

I feel like this is going to be a meme yeah I guess uh yeah I mean I did that one time with somebody having a very difficult psychedelic experience yeah yeah well as best I could but yeah try to meet him in the middle meet him a spiritual hug yeah spiritual hug yeah quite helpful I'm surprised I've never come up before. It's weird that we're attached by, you know, we constantly want people around us, but we're always going to be detached by bodies and we assume that that's forever. But if there comes a time where we figure out how to separate consciousness from the body and let consciousness interact without a shell.

That's going to get really weird. I think we will still have the same problems. I think we're always going to have problems, because if we don't have problems, then we don't work really hard to find solutions, and then we don't make better stuff. Right, it's reward and punishment. A little bit, yeah.

There's a, like, it seems to be a very clear incentive program that the universe has put in place. Which is, what do you think? Well, it's not entirely based on happiness. It's not based on happiness. It's based on overall growth for everything around. It's like whoever consumes the most, it wants to reward you more. It becomes this, but what it's really working towards is making better and better and better things.

Do you think that's the Antichrist? Do you think that's the devil? If I had a guess, I mean, we're in it, right? We're stoking the fucking coals right now. It's not us. It's going to be not dependent on us eventually. Right now, maybe it is. It may be.

It might be. But it's not us, and it's going to be created by us. It's going to think it's us. Because it literally has all of our thoughts. Right. It has access to so much information, instantaneously. What happens to free will then?

I mean, how do you decide? I don't know. You know, my hope is that it enhances life, of course. That's my hope. I think that's possible. I think, first of all, it's making people diagnose themselves from illnesses that maybe they wouldn't have ever thought they had. A lot of people have, like, learned things about it.

It can... Way to make them happier, though? No. See, it doesn't do that. You've got to figure that out on your own. Right. Yeah. So you need to.

But can you be happy and also have it? I say yes. I say it's totally possible to interact with technology and still be happy. But there's like certain physical and spiritual requirements that you're going to have to have if you want to be happy. The spiritual requirements. Yeah. You've got to be really nice to people. You have to curate a good group of friends.

You have to do a thing that you truly enjoy. You have to always do the right thing. thing? Well, the two themes in the Hebrew Bible are one is there's one God and next is the golden rule. So one God, golden rule. There's no idols, no other gods, just one God and the golden rule. So proper belief in God, the one God and proper conduct, which is the golden rule or based on the golden rule. That totally makes sense? It's very, yeah, very simple. Yeah. It just makes sense that it works. It's like intuitive. You feel it if you live like that. So like, okay, it makes sense. Well, I think it's true, too. Yeah. We have to decide if it's true for you. It's based on faith. Ultimately, you choose to believe, even if the objective world doesn't confirm it for you.

When you hear about these biblical depictions of fantastic events, how many of them are you attributing to a psychedelic? experience. Are you always, are you open to that or do you just not worry? Well, yeah, they're clearly a psychedelic experience. The Book of Enoch is just fully psychedelic. I mean, at least a lot of it is. Yeah. It's a psychedelic version of the Bible in some ways. Well, it is, it is really psychedelic. I think it's from the release of Vindogynist DMT. comes about or from drinking and having an ayahuasca-like experience. That's what you think the origin of the book of VNAC is?

Well, it's a psychedelic experience and it could be from spontaneous andogenous release of DMT. It's a prophetic, it might be a prophetic state that's brought about. It's a visionary state, you know, clearly. Might have been a huge fever dream. I mean, he was really out there.

But like when he's talking about the watchers and the, you know, angels mating with human women and creating the Nephilim. Like, what do you think that is? Yeah. Well, you know, the watchers aren't stated discreetly or explicitly in the Hebrew Bible. But it could be just, you know, the angels because they never sleep. That's one of the qualities is they never sleep.

So they're called watchers. Yeah. And what happens like the Nephilim, you know, here comes the role of that three, letter root system is the nephileum, it comes from a Hebrew root, not fall, to fall, or to be brought down. So the nephelium fell. That's one way to understand them. Yeah. And then they were the giants, right? Yes. They were the giants that consumed everything. Yeah. And ate their own flesh and they sound really bad. Well, I think, you know, that what was going on, at least if you're looking at the text anyway,

as explanation, it was because of them, the world was just getting terrible. It was full of violence. So, you know, God reconsidered having created man in the first place. But Noah was simple or pure, righteous in that way and was allowed to survive. So what do you think they were describing when they were talking about the Nephilim, when they were talking about them as giants? You think that's just a bad interpretation? Well, they may have been giants, physically. I do think they were giants.

They even had an actual description of how tall they were by some measurement, right? There was some ancient measurement. Yeah, that's probably in Enoch. It's not, you know, just isn't narrated any specifics about the giants. There are men of renown. They were powerful. This is the thing. There's always one of the most fun internet rabbit holes to go down is, are they hiding evidence that giants existed?

You know, like 30 foot tall men that lived in the mountains. And there's always been weird stories of giants all throughout history. and there's people who've supposedly discovered giant brones and then they stored them in the basement of some famous museum and they won't let anybody have access to them. Kind of fascinating. Yeah.

Because they do exist, like those stories exist in history, but you wonder, like, is it just a really big person, like that mountain guy from the Game of Thrones? You know, like an actual human being who's just really extraordinarily big? Or is it a different thing? Is it a giant human being? Mm-hmm.

Well, they're giant. Yeah, I mean, it depends on your perspective Like I'm trying to look at or understanding anyway You know, the giants As they're described in the Hebrew Bible Or else, you know, by implication in the book of Enoch You know, there were giants men of renown And then the earth became corrupt

And they consumed everything Oh, yeah, yeah, that's in the book of Enoch The problem is if you're looking at the least charitable version of human beings in 2025, there's a lot of examples that you could point to that go, well, that sounds, guys, it sounds a lot like us. Well, there may be another, well, there won't be a flood that destroys all mankind. God promised there'd be no flood that would destroy all mankind. You know, that's the reason that we have the rainbow, or that's the meaning of the rainbow, is the covenant. God made a promise that he wouldn't flood us anymore?

he wouldn't destroy all mankind with a flood with a flood but that doesn't rule out let's say other things but don't you think whoever wrote these stories don't you think that was a a regional event like these these great floods like if they were happening let's just say that randle carlson's wrong and there was just one flood in the area and there has to be if there's people from all parts of the world that all have this flood story. There has to be some truth to it, right? We agree to that? Well, I don't know.

I mean, I read the Hebrew Bible. That's sort of where my thinking about the events that are described in the Bible as occurring. So you just leave it at that? Yeah. But when you... Well, we saw, I mean, the important thing about... I think the important thing that I get any way out of the Heard is. Hebrew Bible is kind of an understanding of how things are between us and between us and God.

Well, I don't think this contradicts that in any way. Yeah. It's just fascinating. And when Randall Carlson explains it, and interestingly enough, he first had this idea, he's not the only person to have this idea, but he first had his version of this idea. he's on acid on drugs that's what I was going to say but I didn't want to say it first he looked he looked out and he just had this vision like oh my god this was water water made this and it happened really quickly it just all click with him and then he's been chasing that rabbit ever since and he's a fascinating guy when you hear him talk he's he's so well read in the subject and can just

recall information so effortlessly. So it's a really fascinating guy to listen to talk about it because he's very compelling. But I think those younger Darius Impact Theory folks are right. Yeah. I think something big happened. I wonder why LSD sparked his genius that way. I think he said that he saw it.

Like when you looked out, he recognized what he was looking at. Right. He recognized that water made that thing. Yeah. And then for some reason that hadn't been even, thought of. But then when he showed me a bunch of these images where you have like satellite images, and you could see how

the earth was clearly, it has the ripples of like massive amounts of water going through certain parts of the world. Yeah. Well, it kind of raises the issue of the spiritual properties or promise of the psychedelics. I mean, are the

psychedelic spiritual? Enthiogens. I just don't know. If they, I'm beginning to believe they more in enhance, they have to have something to work on. They can only work on who you are. And I think they just work on who you are. I don't think they necessarily, you know, generate their own information

that they're somehow transmitting to you. Yeah, it's the question of how psychedelics work. What are psychedelics doing? I think psychedelics or the psychedelic state will play an important role in shaping this virtual universe. that, you know, seems to be, you know, taking hold, entering. Well, it's really weird considering that it was 1970 when most of these psychedelics were made a schedule of one substance.

Controlled substance of that act of 1970. Yeah. That, imagine that didn't happen. Imagine Nixon was not president. That didn't happen. That didn't go through. and the world evolves technologically

at the same level that it has now but also has access the entire time to all these different psychedelics legally. I think people were tripping hard even after they were illegal. I'm sure they were, but I bet they weren't as much.

Yeah. It's dangerous. People would get put in jail. People don't want to lose their lives because they want to take a tap of acid so that they didn't do it. It's like a real deterrent for a lot of people that want to have a good future. They go, fuck that.

I don't want to do drugs. But if mushrooms were legal, like, you might have made a completely different life choice a long time ago that made you happier. Right. Or not. But the option to try should be yours. So you're pro-legalization. Yes. And it certainly shouldn't be restricted by people who haven't experienced it.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Like, why would a person who has never experienced psychedelics be able to tell people who've done psychedelics that they can't do them? That's nuts. Like, you don't even know what you're talking about. You don't have any experience in the state of mind that is enhancing these people's lives that have come back from war. Like, especially like Ibegain therapy, which is they've passed now in Texas. You know, so they're allowing that to happen now for people with, like, severe drug addiction. and PTSD and

It's really It's a very interesting drug I was wondering if you've ever done I big A No I haven't But it's beautiful that it's being Approved and used here Because there's so many people that could So many fucking people

Go over and have to fight overseas And come back home Scramble and need some help And people who got hooked up on pills Because they got injured Right Because something happened or whatever it is and then all of a sudden you have a real problem.

Ibogaine is one of the best ways to kick it. Like one of the absolute best ways. It's very effective, right? It's like one dose is like one experience is like 80-something percent. During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety

brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September, Lisa 2026 X-E-90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event. Conditions supply, visit your local Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. With the RBC Avion Visa, you can book any airline, any flight, any time. So start ticking off your travel list. Grand Canyon? Grand. Great barrier reef?

Great. Galapagos? Galapah Go Switch and get up to 55,000 Avion points that never expire Your idea of never missing out happens here Conditions apply Visit rbc.com

slash avion Of the people never go back to whatever they were addicted to Yeah I'm not sure if it's because of the drug or the belief in the drug I'm the guy who first started to you know, kind of popular as Ibegain

was a fellow named Howard Lotzoff. A very cool guy. Met him sort of during his late phase. But he, like, as a young man, he was addicted, you know, to heroin. And he heard about Ibegain as I tried to just trip on and have some kicks. Yeah, and he stopped, and he found himself and just not using opiates anymore. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, the, yeah. The origin stories for Ibegain are really fascinating. So before that, people didn't know that you could use it to kick drug addiction? You know, not that much, no. Well, is drug addiction ubiquitous throughout history? Is there always been people that are addicted to drugs? It's just, when does it start getting recorded about people with addictions, actual addictions to drugs? Yeah, I don't know

There was the idea of addiction In the 1800s, maybe even earlier It was kind of an American British idea Like did they know they were alcoholics in the 1400s? Yeah, all kinds I mean, I can't imagine what they were addicted to in the 1400s Scopolamine containing plants

You know, the solanacea, mandrake and all. Scopalamine, isn't that that dust that they blow up your nose and turn you into a vampire, or a zombie, rather? Yeah. Is that, that it? Scopalamine. Oh, yeah. Isn't that like that? Right, right.

It's a zombie drug or something. Yeah, some sort of a zombie drug, right? Isn't that scopolamine? Yeah, well, do you know Dennis McKenna? Sure. Yeah, he tells the story. of myerskapalamine in Mexico. I hope I'm right.

It's a great story. Yeah, devil's breath. That's right. Devils breath. Medication used to treat motion sickness and post-operative nausea and vomiting, but it also does something wacky. Yeah. Like if you take large doses of it that the devil's breath thing.

So you can get it in dromene. That's what dromamine is, right? It's an anticholinergic like the scopolamine drugs are. But isn't like the stuff that makes you less nauseous when you're seasick? Isn't that? Like compasine. Does dromamine have this stuff in it? They're not the same.

It's not the same? Yeah, you know, one is... Sorry. Dromamine is oral antihistamine called dimethylhydrinate, while scopamine is a different prescription only, anti-colyngeric medicine, particularly in patch form used to prevent motion sickness. Okay, so they put it in a patch form to stop motion sickness, whereas dromamine is the oral thing that stops motion sickness. Got it. Fentinol is also in patches. That's the best way to take it.

It is a weird thing. So, but scopolamine, you can get in a patch, and it is for motion sickness. Right. But it's when they blow it. up your nose that it's not good. Yeah, well, it's really, you know, the active ingredient in jimson weed, loco weed. And what is that? It grows in the southwest, there's a lot growing. Locco weed, New Mexico, jimson weed, loco weed. Yeah, it's gasopalamine.

And it will cause, you know, effects. Well, you know, one of my patients when I worked at the VA in La Jolla was an alcoholic. Like, you know, back in the day, took Jimson weed tea, drank a lot of it, wandered off to the desert, two, three days, one of those kind of stories. Came back, he didn't remember a thing, but he stopped using alcohol. He was brain damage, though. Whoa. So sorry to say. Brain damage from that?

From either being in the desert or from the scopolomy. He took too much. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a crazy drug. Yeah, you know, it is useful. You know, one of the... I would rather get motion sickness. Yeah, yeah.

That sounds terrible. Yeah, if you take too much, yeah, or you have a bad reaction to it. Yeah. Yeah, what do you think is going on with American health? That's a good question. Well, I've been fascinated by these videos of pregnant women taking Tylenol to, to show Trump that they don't believe in what RFK Jr. is saying that somehow another anti-science. When this science came from Harvard, that's where the study came from.

I mean, he's not making things up. And these people are like on TikTok, they're pregnant women taking Tylenol. Yeah, I took a lot. Well, I mean, if I weren't for Tylenol, I wouldn't be here today. For real? I mean, I do find it quite helpful. Yeah? Yeah.

Yeah. you know, for injuries. As, as you get older, as a lot of people, it get older, you know, there's pain. It's an acetaminophen, though, right? Yeah, it's a Cidamidic, which is really toxic, isn't it? Well, if you take too much, it can cause. So that's what it is. It's like a dose thing.

So one is fine. One's fine. You know, four is fine, probably. After four, you know, can upset your stomach. You know, liver toxicity is possible. You know, but if you stay within normal limits, it seems to be fine. So. At least for myself.

For you? Well, and also, in general, they haven't been recalls for, you know. And what do you take it for, if you're going to take it? Pain. What kind of pain you're getting in? Feats, you know, on my head, hernia repair a while back. Oh. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, so I find it to be a very helpful drug with no side effects. well you should definitely be allowed to take it especially you you know my concern is always i should be allowed to take it people that don't understand that there's a dose that if you go over that it's going to torture liver and you could die yeah it's all about dose i mean microdosing psychedelics are completely different are in a lot in quite a few ways than full dose or the effects are different yeah for sure yeah Have you tried microdosing?

I have in the past. Yeah. Yeah, while back, I was having some belly issues, and I microdosed ayahuasca for about a month. It's helpful, very helpful. What is every day like? Microdose in ayahuasca. Well, it is a microdose. So it was teeny.

So it just gave you just a little peek? I wish. Nothing? Not really. I took more in the beginning. then kind of stretched it out. It's kind of like coffee, like sparkly coffee if you take a little too much.

Oh, yeah? What do you think would have happened if that 1970 sweeping act didn't take place? What do you think the world would, how much different, have you ever contemplated it? How much different would the world be? Not really. Not at all.

Good for you. Good for you. Why waste your time? Well, I mean, you know, when I tried to get my DMT study off the ground, I mean, that was pretty weird. That was, you know, two years of just, you know, backbreaking labor. What year was that? Where it started? I submitted the paperwork in September, 1988. I gave my first dose of DMT in November 1990. And I gave a lot of DMT then.

I went kind of crazy for the next five years. years. And you were doing IV drip slow release, right? No, it was one big dose. One big dose, IV? Yeah, bolus, IV bolus. Oh. Yeah.

Yeah, so our high dose was 0.4 milligrams per kilogram. Oh. And the highest dose is now being used to 0.3. Nobody has gone back up to 0.4 on a regular basis. Yeah, so people really went out there in 0.4. they were pretty scared. And they weren't sure they were coming back. Oh, they weren't sure they were coming back.

Yeah. That is a fear. That's a fear of all psychedelic experiences. You don't think you could shut it off. Yeah. What is this? And is this real? Is this around me all the time?

And I'm ignoring it. Is this real? Is this real? Are you ignoring it? Yeah, boy, it's a terrible state to be in. Terrible. Excuse me. That's why.

Yeah. Yeah, that's why I think, you know, DMT ought to be carefully taken. I think everything should be carefully taken, especially if you've got something wrong with you already. Like if you're self-diagnosing with some really potent stuff, like, ugh. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, I think it can really go south. Yeah. Well, I mean, who's going to decide that, you know, based on what?

Well, no one's deciding for you with alcohol. You could go fill your bar at home with more than enough to kill your... yourself with. Right? Like most people can. Yeah. Most people, if you have like a little bar in your house, like three or four bottles with Jack Daniels, a couple of this, a couple of that. You're dead. Drink all that stuff. You're dead. Yeah. I'm, have you ever gone through a drinking phase? Not a bad drinking phase. I don't drink at all anymore. But I will still, if I feel like it, I'll have a glass of wine. Or I'll have a margarita. I like a nice cabernet, sir. okay um i just like a little red wine sometimes but i've only had like two or three glasses of

anything over the last like eight nine months and even like i didn't even finish the wine it's like i've lost my taste for it i just the the trade-off is not worth it like i have a lot of fun people in my life and i have a lot of fun without alcohol like i don't necessarily think it was providing me with the amount of good versus the amount of negative, the negative artworked it, especially physically. Right. It's just bad for you physically. Yeah, yeah.

You know, thankful I didn't drink in high school. And I kind of made up for a last time in college. And I got really sick a few times. Yeah, so I just stopped drinking, like to that point anyway. Wow, it's like people are having a good time. You know, and I get it. And if you're young and I get it, I get it, I did it too. But it's not good for you.

It's not good for your decision making too because then you meet the next day, you're like, ugh. And if you're at that low state of being hung over, you're fucking for sure not putting out great energy. Yeah. Well, you don't want to get into that state. No. You do, you want it channeled really, really carefully. Yeah. Like I've never been part of like an ultra-Orthodox sect,

but I think what happens in some of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish sects, there's a Lubavitcher sect in Brooklyn. And the fellow who led that was Schneerson, Menacham-Schnearsen, and he really enjoyed drinking. He got, you know, inspired. Inspired. And he wanted others to be. become inspired.

You know, it has to, you know, some become a conduit. I think it kind of differs. Like with Bukowski, you know, you can think of somebody who loves alcohol.

First time he, first time he got drunk, it was a psychedelic experience, actually. Mm. Yeah. In his account, he says to himself,

I think I've found something very, very important. It's kind of hilarious. Yeah. Yeah, that was never the effect alcohol had on me. I didn't, and you get, you feel good for a while, a short period of time. Yeah.

We obviously all differ biologically, but some people, it hits a switch that nothing else does. Some people love it. Yeah. Well, it's just, it's discounted in the text. You shouldn't drink too much. It's very, very clear. But I'm not sure you shouldn't drink at all. I think you should drink if you want to drink.

And, you know, everybody, people get real rigid, you know, especially if you have someone around you that has a problem with alcohol or you have had a problem with alcohol. Yeah. Well, there's a huge homeless population in Albuquerque. Oh, yeah. Alcohol plays somewhat of role. Yeah. I played a lot more in the Navajo Reservation when I lived in Gallup. Yeah, I think people just use and abuse drugs.

Right, there's also those things They sound like There's not a lot of opportunity In the places you're describing, right? Right, so if you don't, yeah You just want to not feel anything You're outside of reservation Or on one

Or on a reservation Yeah I mean I'm in the middle of the audio book Empire of the Summer Moon For the second time It's all about the Comanches And the war between the settlers

And the Comanchees here It's crazy. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm in the middle of this, and I'm thinking, like, have people always been this horrible, and we're just sort of catching up to it now? Well, you know, that's taken into account in Canaan Abel, the Canaan Abel story. Sure. The first two children, one murders the other.

So it started, it started a wood. way back. It starts way back with the bang. And you just go God, have people always been this awful? From the beginning. Well, you know, there's a line in the text that he's going to that, you know, God is going to destroy mankind.

No, no, what does he, what happens here? I think he decides people will only live 120 years at the most because their inclination is bad from the get-go and 120 years is enough time to repent and become a better person.

Wow. So you've given 120 years to, you know, deal with what you were born with. But this book, this Empire of the Summer Moon, it just makes me think, when you think about what life was like for the people that lived here before the European settlers arrived and how quickly everything went away historically in terms of, like, the timeline, it was only a few hundred years and it was just completely gone. Yeah. A other garden of Eden lost.

There was also, there was a lot of war. That's the thing that everybody likes to leave out. Like, I'm fascinated with Native American culture. I'm fascinating with this Comanche civilization that lived here because this book, Empire the Summer Moon, is just, it's so interesting. They were so fierce, and they lived right here. Yeah.

Well, there's 29 Pueblos in, Mexico and you know the Pueblo are peaceful folk they're agricultural yeah you know that's their you know that's been their heritage the Comanchee were not and they one of the things this book talks about is how a lot of the Apaches were not on horseback and they were and that they were literally wiping out bands of Apache and forcing them to go to Mexico it's like this is always been there's always been once they've had horses which is really like after the spaniards got here right then they once the comanches figured out horses they got really good at it and they were like an impossible barrier to get through this part of the country yeah there's mostly navajo around where i lived

in gallop and they were nomads they raised sheep spun sure and then then the eastern side a lot more agriculture right it's just all the space and the same the amount of time that it took for everything to get pushed where if you're a native american and you're you know it's 2025 for you and you're living on a red of reservation you're like whoa what happened you start going into the history of it like how many people died like what happened is there a commanche presence in in texas a lot of signs i'll tell you that a lot of the signs are like quantum Parker Lane. He was the last Comanchee chief. Yeah, yeah. Well, they always name things after what used to be there.

Well, this is all that area. There's a lot of Comanchee were in this area, but it went all the way down to Oklahoma. It was just a barrier that you couldn't get through. Yeah, it was fun living in Gallup. It was mostly in Navajo. Yeah. TD Bank knows that running a small business is a journey. up to growing and managing your business. That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs.

No matter the stage of business you're in, visit td.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD small business banking account manager. Yeah, very low key. They come to terms with being, you know, defeated. part of that you know it's crazy though isn't it well i mean it like had that all those things had to take place in order to get new york city like yeah so you have to decide what do you like more new york city or you want to go back in time and say don't sell this right right you know what do you like more do you like do you like do you'll go to uh nice i i like pizza i like to be

We go to a nice nightclub, have a drink, go to a nice steak dinner in New York City, or give it all back, give it all back. Go back in time. You say, hey, guys, you're getting robbed. Don't sell this for whatever it was. You can't halt progress. How much did they buy New York for? $27. Really?

In jewelry, fake jewelry even. No. Wow, what a deal. Or $45. What a great origin story for a villainous country. that their number one city was made through a swindled deal where it was fake jewelry well that's why I went to medical school

was the Bronx well you're from New Jersey yes that's where I was born yeah yeah I trained in the Bronx I didn't get to Jersey much New Jersey's a crazy place because everybody thinks of it as just being city because like it's right near the city like Hackensack and Hoboken and stuff like that

but it's like mostly rural Yeah. Mostly it's got bears all over the place in it. There's some really nice coastal parks. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The shore is awesome. You know, small doses.

It's nice to go down there. Yeah. So the Bronx was great training. Yeah? It's a yeshiva. It's like the modern orthodox university in the country. Oh, that's where it is? Yeah.

It's the medical school of yeshiva. It's called Einstein. And, yes, in the Bronx. It was great training. We could do anything. We could do everything because it was pretty poorly staffed in some ways in the 70s. So we had a lot of, you know, duties. When did you first even have the idea to create a study of people doing IV DMT?

Like, when did you even say? That's a lot of story. It seems like a good one, though. It seems like a good one. Because how do you get to the point where you're asking the government to let you do this? And then you get them actually to say yes. It was the war on drugs that funded our study. Well, it all kind of came to a head with Terrence McKenna.

We were up in his loft one afternoon. And instead of saying DMT was a really great drug and asked for, for money, we said DMT was a really dangerous drug and asked for money. Oh. I think you've told me this before. Yeah, yeah. But it's a good story. It's like, yeah, yeah.

We just want to study it. We just want to study it. It's not good or bad. It's clever because it's not, you're not lying. No, no. I knew what I was talking about too. Yeah. Like I had done neuroendocrine, not.

neuroendocrinology research with melatonin circadian rhythm research. Yeah, I was a bona fide investigator. I just asked simple questions. Could we give it? What happens when you give it? DMT is really strange. The role is played in my life.

I've been complaining for years that, well, not complaining for years, but I don't know, I'm more skeptical of the psychedelic experienced than I was before. I don't think it's a panacea. Well, I think it is a panacea. That's the problem. I think there's an issue with spiritual narcissism. That's a thing that sort of grips people when they start doing it a lot and then their identity is wrapped up in doing it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's a little bit of that that happens with folks. With DMT in particular.

Is it? Yeah. Or ayahuasca. Like, but once a year I get an email saying something in the subject line, your book in my son. Yeah, and they say that they just smoked way too much DMT. They were in the hospital or in prison. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, they just, well, it became messianic, like you said. Like you believe you know more than anyone.

And if they just listened. Yeah. False Messiah. Well, there's some interesting stories with false messias. You know, at least within Judaism, Messiah has not come yet, as opposed to Christianity, where Jesus was Messiah. So what is Judaism's version of what happened with Jesus?

He wasn't the Messiah, so he died. He didn't get resurrected? Well, you know, he may have been resurrected, but resurrection occurs in the Jesus. Hebrew Bible so that's not unique right but what what is their take on it um well end of story he's killed and that's it he don't come back no not really not within the Hebrew Bible that's part of the New Testament the Christian Bible oh oh that's one thing I wanted to bring up is old Testament is a term that's a little disparaging in a way it's been it's been replaced by Hebrew

Bible. Interesting. Yeah. When was that? It's been building. Okay. So is this like a pronouns thing? It prefers this? It wants to be identified as a Hebrew Bible? They prefer it. I was saying it. Yeah. It could be either. It will be. You know, like I was thinking of it. Well, you know how people put in parenthetical phrases, you know, He, him. Yeah, I was thinking of doing that for myself once, It and It's. It and It's? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it would be gender neutral. Sounds good. Yeah.

Well, that's one of the... Or just not ever. Come on. Yeah, so, you know, I was thinking about, you know, does God have genitals? and, you know, probably not. It doesn't seem like it's the likely way we were made, but it's probably some sort of a interdimensional psychedelic equivalent of intercourse that higher beings have some interaction with each other.

I think it was the optimal form. The optimal form? Yeah, to contain. a certain consciousness and do particular things. It's an ideal format. You know, it was ideal. So that's, you know, why it took a particular unique shape. You know, form, follows function, things like that.

Right. Yeah. I got confused there. What are you referring to? Oh, well, you know, the specific, well, I think you were, I was referring to. man being made in God's image with genitals Oh, right

Yeah, but I think it You know, in the animal kingdom Things evolved to do certain things They have form and function which You know, combined, determine their range of behaviors So I think in humans it's Sort of was the optimal form as well Same way, perhaps

what do you think happened when human beings had this doubling of the brain size over a period of two million years what do you think that was is that true supposedly yeah i think so i think it was yeah yeah i don't know it sounds like a crazy little expansion yeah so i mean you can look at it you know evolutionarily you know biologically you know theological you know Theologically, you can look at it, too, as, you know, finally being endowed with, you know, a human spirit. You know, there's multiple spirits, you know, and even in the Hebrew Bible, there's multiple spirits. So as the brain expands in size, you develop a human spirit? I think so. Yeah, that human spirit allows for divine communication.

At least that's how the theory goes. So it's the, you know, the breathing. being in of the soul to man by God in man's creation. Right. So ultimately, we're going to get to be a gray. We're going to have a big giant head, and we're not going to need to talk, because we're going to do it telepathically.

Yeah. Okay. You know, telepathically, you think people being able to read the mind is a good thing? It will be a good thing once that happens or if it can happen. I think it will be a thing, and like all things, it will have good aspects to it and bad aspects to it.

I think reading people's minds will be very enlightening. You're going to learn a lot more about how people actually think versus what they project. You're going to be able to see people's motivations. You're going to be able to still lies. We might even have a universal visual language that they develop. We might all be able to adopt it really quickly, and kids probably will jump right on board, and they'll be literate in it before we are? What about psychological ambivalence,

loving someone, one moment, hating them another? Well, that's... You know, what happens if you, you know, tune in to one moment, you're convinced that's, you know, solely the case. If you're ambivalent, all ambivalence is a real thing, and you're, you know, you have an unconscious, too, where things are kind of stored away, psychologically.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's good. It might be hard. I don't know if there is some way where we link up and we can communicate completely telepathically, it could be really weird. Yeah. But it will be a thing. That's my point. It's like we're going to have to navigate it like we navigated making books, like we

navigated everything else. Like if we want to stay alive, we've got to recognize that there's. some shit going down. There's some shit going down right now. Right. Well, there's free will isn't there forever. All these decisions that you have to make. Well, I mean, in this... Or is there free will? The determinism people don't think there is. Well, it feels as if there's free will. Yeah. I feel like we respect free will, so it's probably a real thing. We respect a person who has been a drunk their whole life who puts down the bottle and starts running around the block. We respect that because it's a real thing.

Free will is, there's part of free will. It's like, there's something there, there's something there. You make choices. You don't know why you make choices, but you make choices. That's the thing. There's a lot of factors in why you make choices, and it's not 100% determinism, and it's not 100% free will. It's kind of, there's a soup.

There's a very movable soup. You know, to the extent that you can exert free will, You know, you have to kind of do the best you can. Yeah, you've got to do your best you can. Yeah. Yeah, and even if we're uploaded into the cloud, let's say, I mean, how's that time going to be spent? Good question. What is, I mean, are we even capable of imagining what we're talking about?

Are we so crude in our understanding of what's to come in the next five, ten, whatever years that we're just, we're just guessing we're silly. or like writing a bad science fiction movie from the 1980s about the year 2000? Mm-hmm. You remember those? Like, Space 1999? Well, you know, it's the one God and the Golden Rule. I think that's what we'll be left with ethically,

you know, what the basis of our decision-making will be. I've always wondered if we're in a race to avoid catastrophe. And that's one of the reasons why we're so, like, hyper-focused on accelerating with technology is that we kind of always recognize that this species is a race to avoid natural catastrophe. Like there's just so much potential for natural catastrophe, whether it's super volcanoes, asteroid impact, so many different things have like almost wiped us out to nothing. That it's like might be a part of the reason why there's this like mad rush to make better and better and better technology. It's almost like a game. Like, can you get to the final boss?

Can your species survive and figure out a way to stop the rock from space? Yeah, the footsteps of the Messiah. That's what that's called. I mean, you want to be around at the time of the Messiah, but not really because things have to get so bad. That's one model of the end of times. There's also a lot of people that don't recognize, that being a human being on earth

is being a passenger in an organic spaceship going through the universe. Like there are real celestial events that they have to keep their eyes on. Which, you know, you haven't experienced in your lives. You're like, eh. But no, there's giant rocks that killed the dinosaurs and they're still floating around,

same-sized rocks. Yeah, I know. And they can't stop them. They don't know how to stop them. Yeah, like, don't listen to any of these fucking people. Oh, if we saw it, we would do this and do that and sleep tight at night. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, if there was some gigantic state-sized chunk of metal flying through the galaxy, we would have a real problem.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it might wipe out all of humanity. Yeah, it might wipe out all of humanity. Yeah. And it probably came really close to doing that a few times in history. That's what I think. Yeah. It's the only thing that makes sense.

If we know that we're hit all the time, we all accept the fact that the Yucatan impact, that's what killed the dinosaurs, and there's been a bunch of them throughout history. We find craters everywhere. Everyone knows that we've been hit multiple times, the Tanguska thing in Russia, where it flattened, this enormous patch of forest that's still flattened. Have you been watching season two of Omn of Graham? Hancock's ancient apocalypse. I didn't watch season two yet. Yeah. No.

I watched season one, though. Yeah. What's season two about? It's like the Americas, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the Americas are crazy. Yeah, I like Graham.

He's the best. Yeah, he's hard working. Oh, he loves what he does, man. He really, really does. And the fact that he's finally been over all these attacks, he's finally been vindicated. and people are starting to accept more and more things are probably a lot older than we want to believe. And especially after Go Beckley Tapie, that kind of like,

that popped the cork on everything. And everyone's like, okay, well, this has definitely been buried for 11,000 years. So this is kind of crazy. We didn't know they could do that back then. Well, before coming out here, I asked ChatGPT, you know, how old are some of the stories written down in the text?

in the Hebrew Bible, and at least according to ChatGPT is 10,000 years ago. You know, so... Oh, my God. You know, something may have happened at that time. That makes sense. Yeah, that's a very interesting finding. Oh, you know, Sodom and Amora, that's a great story.

I'm working on this translation of the Hebrew Bible. I've got a substack now. I've been putting out things every week, a chapter a week. Yeah. On my translation of the Bible. It's like a thousand pages right now of commentary about the language and, you know, the grammar, you know, the meaning. It was called the plain meaning of the text. Like there was a Noah with three sons and went on the arc.

Yeah, so, yeah, that's like my big project, but I like to do a smaller one about Sodom and Nomura and the figure of Lot. I think that's a really incredible story. I've spent about maybe two to three weeks looking at that, you know, like, you know, a lot, his virgin daughters, the men circling his house, they're asking to know him. He ends up, you know, in a cave with his two virgin daughters, they get him drunk, and he sleeps with them. Or, you know, they lie with him anyway. Yeah, now come two kids at a certain point, and they become very important. You know, later on, they're the beginning of the messian. line. You know, so it's a very intricate, you know, tale with a very, I think you can make

some cool conversations between some of the main person who's just in the, in, you know, the narrative. You know, there was a book called The Red Tent. Can I ask you about the, the lot, like, how old was that story? Well, that must be, well, it's an explanation of, you know, Sodom and Gomorrah, which is the, you know, around the Dead Sea. You know, there was a conflagration of some sort there. Have any of your guests spoken about, you know, Sodom, you know, what actually happened around the Dead Sea? It was quite catastrophic.

Well, tell us. Tell us. Well, the story of lot, yeah. I mean, there was fire and sulfur pouring down on Sodom and Gomorra. Yeah, it was the end of the plain. Yeah, so that's the southern part. of the Dead Sea. You know, it is a Dead Sea because of its high salt concentrations.

It was kind of, you know, closed off from the coast. Yeah, so it's at least a description of, you know, what took place. What do you think it's describing? Well, I mean, you know, my perspective is it actually happened. Yeah, but people think a volcano. of some kind of volcanic activity. We're totally saying it sounds like a volcano, right? And we know that there's been a bunch of those

that have almost wiped people out entirely at certain points. That Tobo volcano, you know, that one? No. We got down to, I think the, we've looked this up before, but I want to say they think we might have gotten down to just a few thousand people.

On the whole planet. Like 70,000 years ago, 70,000 years ago, there was a massive super volcano that went off. And it, you know, plunged the Earth probably into nuclear winter. And they think that our genetic line entirely of the human race on Earth came from this few thousand survivors. Joe, can we take a break? Yes, we'll be right back, folks. Seriously. We're back.

Yeah, so we were talking about the alternative. Yes. Explain what you mean by that, like that these things are happening in an alternative dimension. Right. Yeah, I think they're happening in an alternative dimension. Like when you smoke DMT, you return to the same place each time. So there seems to be some reality, some DMT world that people enter into. And it's one of my volunteers, one of the subjects in the DMT research, he got a big dose of one day and then a few months later he got another big dose and he said that it was very interesting he said things have just you know continued a pace since his first exposure and his first you know entrance into that state and things had had you know gone on in the

meantime and he re-entered near that world so in that way there's a you know in that same manner the world of the Hebrew Bible early on Adam Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, the Tower of Babel, all that took place at some different level of reality which

gradually made us way into ours and once it made its way into ours there's the archaeological evidence in the first temple, second temple and so on. So there is a transition between, you know, our world and that world kind of merged.

But in the beginning, it was an alternative dimension. The same God, I think, but, you know, different dimensions. So, is this your own personal conclusion? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, when I was on the show last time, you're asking if I believe those things took place. and my answer then was I take it as if it were true

and then I started to think how I would do that in what world would that be true it would be a different world I feel like I've always believed that they were trying to record something I just didn't always trust

that human beings were completely honest with their recollection of events so that there's something that they were trying to write down but was it really coming from God was it are these accurate events

what exactly happened with Noah and the Ark what really happened well you know three stories you know three you know three levels you know two of each then seven of

one one pair or you know seven pairs of birds, well of every living thing. Yeah, but like how's you feeding them? Animals eat other animals. The whole thing's nuts. You need a lot more rabbits. You need so witty animals to keep just the lions alive.

It doesn't make any sense. How's he getting them all from all over the world into his stupid boat? There's so many things that are wrong. But the story of him being told that some shit is about to go down and you probably

should, you know, find some way to restart your version of civilization somewhere there's probably multiple like the flood myth that we you know whatever you want to call it the the the the stories of the the flood that you get from epic of gilgamesh that you get from noah there's not there's not just those there's many many different cultures all throughout history have a flood story right So it's probably likely that some crazy shit went down. You know, there may have, you know, there most likely was a flood.

Yeah, you know, so what do you learn from it? You know, like, how do you do better or on what basis do you rebuild? You know, so I think, you know, there's new different models. You know, the biblical one is interesting because, because, you know, it's a, you know, it's a, you know, lineage, you know, from Adam to Noah, to Abraham, you know, Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and now. So when you talk about things happening in an alternative dimension, like, is that what you think, like, the birth of mankind is as well, like Adam and Eve? Well, I mean Pull this microphone up

Okay, I'm sorry It just has an impact Yeah Well, you know The creation story Your man was created on Sixth Day Right

Along with mammals It's a cool story It's stages You know like You know people are Say well You know seven days That's unlikely

Like the That your creation took place seven times 24, I don't know, 148, you know, 148 hours, 168 hours, the whole world was, you know, was created. You know, but it's broken into stages, you know, seven stages, you know, which is one of the translations of the word that is usually translated day. It could also mean stage. It's a word yome. it can mean either a day, a period of time, a stage. So that's the answer that makes sense to me

about the seven-day story of creation. Yeah, so, you know, man was created on the sixth day and then was placed in the Garden of Eden. And, you know, those events took place. you know the stories themselves are just you know they're written down and so people have been studying them for thousands of years who do you think lilith was no mention of lilith in the bible really yeah where's the story of lilith emerge well it comes from what's called midrash what's that comes from a root d r shahdhar it means to i don't know explicate to expand upon, to investigate.

You know, so what happened after Adam and Eve sinned, you know, did they have sex again? And they do have Cane and Abel and the ensuing stories. And, you know, then there's a third son, Shate, who is the inheritor of Adam's good, of his traits, his good traits and bad traits. He's like God as well. So there's a distinct lineage that is spelled out.

You know, Lilith was a demon that she slept with Adam after the sin of eating from the fruit, of knowledge of good and evil. So there's a story that built up around the biblical. story that they were separated, Adam and Eve were, you know, were separated for a long period. And, you know, so who was Adam sleeping with? Well, it was expanded in the midrash that there was a demoness named Lilith who slept with Adam for me, I don't know, a couple hundred years. And then Adam and Eve reconciled. Whoa. Yeah. So Lilith is, you know, is, you know, she doesn't appear in the text of the Hebrew Bible as such.

You know, so nobody knows, you know, there's a mythology that's grown around Lilith as well. Well, isn't there some festival, some music festival called the Lilith Fair? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's named after, you know, the spirit that or the, you know, demonessus. You sure it wasn't like a lady named Lilith that she came up with me? Are we sure? It was her neighbor.

Lilith, uh, Swift, Smith. Um, so what was the reason why the book of Enoch? Like, so it was not included in all the versions of the Bible. Mm-hmm. By a decision of like, how many people? It was like a few rabbis, right? Um, well, the canon, you're talking. about. There's 22 books in the Hebrew Bible.

Right. And there's certain versions of it that they found with the Dead Sea Scrolls like the Book of Isaiah that's identical verbatim, which is really amazing, right? Yeah, yeah. And there's Aramaic translations. Aramaic was the spoken language back back then, back there. But the Book of Enoch was a part of all that, the stuff

they found in Qumran too, right? I'm just not well, I tried learning about the book of Enoch. Yeah. Yeah. There's only an Ethiopic version, right?

Yes. Yeah. Well, have you looked into the Book of Enoch? Yeah. Well, I told you I've been listening to it on audio. But Ethiopia is a fascinating place. Yeah. Right?

Because, like, that's the place where Graham Hancock started getting interested in the possibility that they have the Ark of the Covenant. Right. They're supposed to be a tribe in Ethiopia. And they all get counteracts. And the people that are predicting it, they only live, like, a certain amount of time. and then they die. Yeah.

Like, if that's true, if any of that's true, if any of that's true, if somehow or another, there's people on earth today that have an Ark of the Covenant, how could you keep that a secret? That's the craziest thing to be even allowed to keep a secret. Yeah, it's one of those things you can't even imagine. You can imagine if they open up a door and, like, there it is. Oh, like from Raiders of the Lost Ark. Melt your face off.

Well, it would contain the Ten Commandments. Yo. Yeah, the original Ten Commandments. Well, what do you think these guys are guarding in Ethiopia where they're getting cataracts? Because when Graham describes it, you're like, if you're telling me the truth, and I think you are, because you've never lied to me yet, if you're telling me the truth, these people that are guarding this place that supposedly has the Ark of the Covenant are all getting, like, radio. radiation sickness? Yeah.

Well, yeah, the ark is hidden. I mean, that's what is, you know, said in the Hebrew Bible is that it's hidden. So we just don't know what happened, at least according to the Hebrew Bible. It still has been, it hasn't been discovered yet. So it might be in Ethiopia. God only knows. It's just the craziest story ever. Because if it is true, if this one church has the Ark of the Covenant, like, hey, guys,

Let us get a look at it. Yeah. Yeah. You know? I hope they got it right. Yeah. Well, they should definitely make sure someone doesn't steal it. You know?

Yeah. Well, you know, the Ten Commandments. You know, that's appearing in, I'm at public schools now. Yeah. I had a guy, James Tala Rico, on, to talk about that, actually, who's a very staunch Christian and thinks it's a terrible idea to have the Ten Commandments in classrooms. Why? You're indoctrinating children.

He goes it's like a way to drive them away from Christianity. You're forcing it on them. He's like, we shouldn't do it that way and certainly not do it in a way where you're only going to have the Ten Commandments. And you're not going to have anything about Buddhism and you're not going to have anything about Islam. You're not going to have anything about Baptist or, you know, fill in the blank. Mormons, fill in the blank. You know, Scientologists. You'd have to have everything.

You have to just keep going forever and ever and ever. And then splinter groups. Yes. So he's got a good RD. I mean, I think he's right. I think they should stop doing that. If you want to teach it in a classroom that someone applies for, that's great. But like putting it on the wall of every class seems kind of insane.

Apparently he was saying that it's just a couple of different gentlemen in Texas that are like super wealthy and super. Christian and they want this to be like a theocracy unfortunately where we heard that before uh in the middle ages yeah baby well i just think it's what happens when people get a shit ton of money a shit ton of power and they start getting older they need a sport they need to take up a take up a game that fascinates them instead of trying to like global world dominate you know it's just people get to positions of dream wealth and power and they just want to manipulate things and make more money and they want to do it forever and ever and ever and they can't you only live to be 120 if everything goes perfect maybe today you might be able to if you can make it to like if you make it to 90 today I bet you could live a lot longer if you live to 90 yeah like if you can I've I've lived way older than you than my father and yes so I think, yeah, I think I'll live a while longer.

I married a young woman. That helps. I need to stay, you know, fit. You know, that actually does help. Live a longer time, yeah. There's been studies that show that men that date younger women, they have more active lives, they feel healthier. I'm more active.

Yeah. But it could be those are the kind of women that are interested in dating, that kind of guy. I just don't know. Yeah, I don't know how it works. And the kind of guys that are more active and healthy would also be the kind of guys that would want to date younger women. So it was a bias sample group, right? Yeah, one of my analysts said it was a mystery. She had no idea, and she had been seeing patients for like 50 years.

And she said, no, I have no idea. It's a mystery. Interesting. And why people get together. Yeah. Well, I think whatever makes you happy. Well, that's it. You know, that's the book of Ecclesiastes.

It's about, you know, it's emptiness, emptiness. It's all emptiness. You know, but at the end, you should make your wife happy and eat and drink and be merry while you're alive. What do you think of that? It's good advice. Solid advice if I was living 2,000 years ago, I'd probably say the same thing. Right. Yeah.

There's no medicine. Do you have no antibiotics? There's no orthopedic surgeons that are going to put your knee back together again. Yeah, I'd say that too. Yeah. It is bad when you have one doctor for every organ system. Yeah. They didn't know anything.

It's nuts. I mean, how many people died? of infections back then. Just that alone, that's extended life, like just antibiotics alone. It's extended lifespan so much because so many people that would have probably died got healthy again. So many people. And those people can maybe figure out some new way to bridge this gap and stop these

viruses and stop this, stop that. And then we just keep getting better at it until we eventually get to the point we're living as long as Noah. 600 years for Noah And that's probably when God gets fed up He's like enough You fucking animals Maybe that's like

Maybe we're going to repeat that process Maybe we're going to like figure out some awesome new peptides Keep you live for 500 years And everyone's going to be a dick to everybody else And then eventually God will just have to drown us again I'm in college We had to read a book about The funeral home industry in Southern California

Oh yeah I've read this little novel by Altus Huxley. Many a summer dies a swan. It's about these people who live forever by eating the intestinal microbiome of carp. Oh, wow. And they become like carp in a lot of ways. And I tried to get into one of these funeral homes. I asked to be, I asked to interview them to see, you know, what people, you know, did after death.

And, you know, never heard back one of those, you know, crazy college stories about looking into the funeral home industry, you know, which is a, I don't know, that's pretty big. It's a weird business. You get the business that's taken care of bodies. And you don't really have a lot of options, right? Like, you're not, like, if someone dies, I don't think you're, are you just allowed to let them fertilize some plants? Are you allowed to do that? Yeah. You know, like, I'll be.

Do you have to put them in formaldehyde? Do you have to do all that stuff? I mean, you did an autopsy on a cadaver, you know, back in the day, open people up and look at them. Well, then there's, you know, surgery, which you go through as well. Right. That was an odd pause. I was like, where are we going with this conversation? I know.

Well, I love the Hebrew Bible. Yes. I spent all my time in it. Just the weirdest thing there is. Do you have any idea why the Book of Vnoch was supposedly excluded from being included in? in the Bible. Yeah. Seems to be some debate about that, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I know. There's, you know, there was a, I think the Dead Sea Scroll community used the book of Enoch. Right. It was like their Bible. Right.

Yeah. Very strange. Well, the thing about the book of Enoch is really, you know, very psychedelic. But there's not that much, like, I don't think there's much in it as far as, You know, Judaism itself, I mean, it's a discussion of the righteous being rewarded and the evil being punished, the evil people being punished. But you don't really learn what it means to be righteous, and you don't really learn from the book of Enoch what is meant to be evil. You don't know how, yeah, there isn't all that much information, I don't think, in there. It's historical, and it's really weird astronomical stuff too.

but I think it may not have been included in the Hebrew Bible because there weren't any ethical teachings that one that could be you know had by reading it no ethical

teachings that could be had by reading it what do you mean by that? Yeah I mean one of the essences of Judaism I think is ethical monotheism you know that's where you know there's the golden rule and there's one God.

So it was ethical monotheism. Yeah, so where were we? Where were we? Yeah, just then. We were talking about the Hebrew Bible, and we were talking about, what else were we were talking about? Why Enoch was in the Dead Sea Scrolls community,

but it wasn't accepted later. Right. But some parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the Book of Isaiah, right? That was the one that was found to be the oldest version of it that was verbatim. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think it's just, you know, it was too psychedelic. And it was a... Too psychedelic. Yeah, I think, I mean, at least in Ezekiel, let's say, which is comparable. You know, Daniel, too, it's quite psychedelic. You know, those were some ethical, you know, some historical and, you know, narrative. But imagine making that call. Imagine making that call, how long ago. Right, a long time ago.

To take that story out. I'm not buying this one, guys. Leave it out. Meanwhile, that's the one that's the most compelling to me. Yeah, yeah. So what do you like about the Book of Enoch? It was just so bizarre. It's very bizarre.

Because it makes the whole thing, it's like, oh, okay, now I get the big story. The whole story's crazy. And the origin story, the book of Enoch, like, as it starts, Like in the very first chapter, you're like, wait, what's going on? Fornication with humans and the race of giants. Like, what? What are you guys describing things coming down and watchers? What are you guys talking about?

Like, what was this? This is so left field of the rest of the Bible. But it was included in the same, like, those clay pots that they found in Coomron. It was in there, too. Like, just you don't know what to believe. Like, what happened there? Well, yeah, you might not know what to believe, but you can also, you know, believe in one way of doing it as well. One way of doing it?

Mm-hmm. As long as you don't get doctrinaire. Right. Yeah. Okay. You just do it yourself. Well, when I think about it, I just go blank. I just try to imagine.

Like, what are they even describing? Like, what does any of that stuff mean? It just seems so alien. There's watchers, and they mate with humans, and they create the Nephilim giants that consume and destroy the earth. Just imagine if that was left into the Bible, and they taught that in school, you'd be like, what happened? Yeah.

It sounds completely crazy. Yeah, it was a mistake. Yeah, that's why there is the flood. is, you know, the work was filled with the violence of the Nephilim. I believe it. The reason of the flood. I mean, look, if we're this size, you know, and we have so many problems with each other, imagine something that's like triple the size of us that's running around with us,

just picking us up and beating us over the head with each other. Yeah, you know, one of the figures in the text is Ogh and Cihon, who are the kings of the Emirates in the land before. the Hebrews take over. And, you know, they were giants, that they were believed to be giants. They talk about how the, you know, bed of one of these kings,

ogre, Cajon, was like nine feet long or something, 13 feet long. Yeah, you know, so there were a couple still, still alive back then. So do you think those are real humans? They were giants. So you think they were real giants, for sure?

Are you 100% convinced that giants roamed the earth? Like, there was 15-foot-tall humans, monstrous humans? It may not have occurred. Well, that's the reason I think that there's some alternative universe that's as real as this one, which was the site of those things happening. So when you say there's an alternative universe that's as real as this one, do you think we dance back and forth between possible universes?

Do you think we're always in the constant same universe or do you think like this concept of parallel universes or alternative universes, that these, you go back and forth between these? Now? No, I think they're pretty well separated, don't you? So you think that the world was a different place back then and that the doorway to go back and forth was easier to traverse? It was one directional and it kind of was one level of reality. kind of, you know, segueing into this one. So do you think these things involved psychedelics while they were doing this, while they were writing all this stuff down? No.

No. Well, I think it involved being attuned to a level, you know, that level of reality. Yeah, which would be mediated through DMT in some ways. The visions would be mediated through DMT. Yeah. You wonder what's possible, too, if you're living in a world, like we can't even imagine living in the world we're not environmentally poisoned like we're we're constantly surrounded by Wi-Fi and 5G and we're eating microplastics and glyphosate is on every

vegetable and there's we're like in a swoop we're in a soup of toxins we can't even imagine what it's like to not have that and to not be burdened down by electronics and all the different things that people like they're probably very different different back then. Just human beings in general. I bet they're probably very different in a lot of ways. Yeah, that's one of the reasons I like living in Gallup. It was really kind of simple. Simple. Yeah, there wasn't much Wi-Fi and there. Yeah. It was just... Simple's good for you. It's not perfect, though. You feel like sometimes cities are fun. Yeah, yeah. You called me when I was living in Gallup. And he said to me, why are you living there?

You were telling me there was nothing around you. It was like, why are you living where there's nothing around you? That's crazy. Yeah. Get out of there. It was my monk phase. Well, had to go through it. I don't think there's anything wrong with going through phases,

but I think ultimately people like to be around people. Just, but it's, you know, there's a point where there's too many people, and then people become like a nuisance to you. You're stuck on the 405. and, like, oh, my God, look at this traffic. Where are all these people going? And, you know, then people become a burden. There's a nice balance to be had somewhere in there.

I don't think it's like living in the woods by yourself. I think that's the dream. It is a weird dream. Well, yeah, it was inspired by acid, so. Oh, yeah. The problem is there's, if you're in the woods by yourself, there's things out there that want to eat you. Yeah.

If you're by yourself, they're going to know where you are all the time. Yeah, well, once I was cross-country skiing up in the mountains behind Gallup, and I was being tracked by a mountain lion. Of course you were. It seemed like it was big. Yeah, of course you were. It was going across the... Probably thinking about taking you out.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, probably thinking about taking you out. At a certain point, I turned around, yeah. Yeah, because if you look like you're out of breath, you look like you're tired, like if they think you're limping or something like that, oh, my God, they can't help themselves. And the woods were really getting dark around me, so... Oh, not good.

It was good, it was time to turn it. Turn around. Not good. Yeah. They're fucking terrifying. And people have this romantic idea of what a mountain line is. You say that until it kills your dog in front of you. Listen to me.

Those are dangerous predators. California is the most ridiculous way of handling it. Yeah. They have to hire people to go kill them. And when they find... Mountain lines. Yeah. And when they do, they find that 50% of their diet is pets.

You've got something that 100% eats your dogs and cats And you're allowing it to live in the woods near your house Like, this is kooky Yeah There's plenty of them in the mountains, kids, okay? Yeah, coyotes are into pets Oh yeah Yeah

If a cat is lost for more than a few days around our neighborhood That's pretty much it If you just let your cat out You're basically like saying You're going to get eaten I know it. You probably don't know it because you're just a cat, but you're going to get eaten. That's why you put them out.

They're everywhere now, too. Coyotes are in every single city in the United States. You've seen coyotes. Oh, fuck yeah. You know, they lope across the road. Yeah. They've had coyote problems where they broke into my chicken coop and killed all my chickens. Yeah, coyotes do that.

They're smart, too, man. They're fascinating. Yeah. They trick dogs into chasing after them, and then they're, all ambush them. Yeah. They're very clever. Clever. Yeah. You used to watch the, you know, Wiley Coyote. He was an idiot. That was so dumb. Yeah, there's a lot of roadrunners in our I know. It's crazy. The idea that the roadrunner would be smarter than a coyote. Coyotes are so clever. Have you ever read Dan Flores' book, Coyote America? No. It's really good.

It's about the origin of the coyote and why the coyote is everywhere now. And part of it is because of the persecution by the gray wolf. So the gray wolves don't mate with the coyotes, but the red wolves do. The gray wolf, so they're from a totally different line, so they just kill the coyotes. Because the coyote is just a small wolf.

And so what they figured out is that when a coyote dies, and like when they yell out, it's like roll call. And if someone's missing, the females produce more pups. So they have extra pups. And then they spread. So the extra pups,

and then they moved to a new place. And by doing, just because they were persecuted by the gray wolves, when they started getting persecuted by humans, you know, like so human beings extradited wolves, they killed them all off except for a few in the upper northern parts of the United States with strychnine. But they couldn't do it with coyotes. The coyotes just kept moving around and separate.

They just went to different spots. They're very smart. They're super smart. They're in New York City right now. Right now there's coyotes in Central Park in New York City. Little wild wolves running around Central Park. Co-existent. Just big enough where they don't look threatening.

They're just a clever little player of nature's game. Wiley Coyote. It's a really good book, though. But it's also about, like, it's called Coyote America. You know, I could have sworn John McPhee wrote about Coyotes. Remember John McPhee out in that country? His Alaska book. I'm sure he probably wrote a book about Coyotes, too.

This is just different. This is about the origins of, you know, coyote mythology amongst Native Americans and that there's thought to be a trickster. And it's, it just, it is a uniquely American animal, you know, it adapts. Yeah, well, that's too bad to see eating your chickens. Yeah, shit happens. Sorry to hear that. Well, it happened. They got, they killed them all.

My chickens in California, they got into a chicken coop and they killed like nine of them. So the chicken coop got damaged because of the fire. so we had to get another chicken coop set up and so when we're set up the other chicken coop it was one that you just buy from like a pet store and it wasn't that durable and the coyotes figured out how to open it and they just fucked up these chickens oh it's a mess man yeah it was just all feathers feathers and blood yeah it was horrible they just went on up they just killed them all they killed them all they killed like nine of them but uh you know that's the fucking

game they play and i love that they exist i'm a fan of coyotes i like hearing them at night i think they're cool i don't want them to eat my dog though you know it's like and you know they're not going to listen you're like hey don't eat my dog and we're cool though they're playing a game it's like wait till you turn your back and they'll attack your toddler i think besides you know movie trailers the things i watch on youtube most are animals killing other animals You know, Barry versus a musk, you know, muscox. Yeah, great stories. It's pretty primal.

It is? Yeah, I like that. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. These people were in India, and they were on some sort of a park drive, you know, one of the wildlife parks, and they watched a tiger take out an animal right in front of them. A tiger took out a deer right in front of them. And they filmed it, like. what's what's cool well the ones i like are the warthogs oh they're so weird looking aren't they yeah they're vicious they're huge they look like a star wars character you don't even look

like a real animal yeah it's unc kosher pork interesting thing it's unconsure pigs yeah yeah the things which are kosher you know chew cut and have completely split and separate Those are the main criteria for mammals. Do you think that's because of ancient diseases? Because it just makes sense that we know that trichinosis, a lot of that comes from pork, right? It always seemed to me pigs are dirty animals. But I had a friend who was insistent that given the choice, pigs are very clean animals. so it's hard to say about the filth aspect of it

that's domestic pigs wild pigs are filthy animals wild pigs yeah all of them 100% of them there's a difference between like a domestic pig this is where it gets really weird you take a domestic pig and you let it loose in the wild and six weeks later it starts to

morph and it starts to extend it the snout its tusks grow longer its fur gets thicker it becomes like a wild pig that's kooky yeah i guess the primitive or the early stages are really strong yeah it quickly it happens quickly like within a month or two it's really weird yeah i wonder how that works it must be some endocrine thing must be their you know gonads and their pituitary and their hypothalamus it's a really good question because like what would let them hit that switch and realize, okay, I'm on my own now.

They're not just bringing me my food every day. Fuck. Time to get hard. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it isn't a conscious decision on their part. Yeah. Seems like it just takes over.

But I was thinking, like, if that animal is not, like, the Muslims don't eat it and the Jews don't eat it. And you would imagine at a time where food was really important. And if you can get pork, that was way better than, you. not having any meat and you can't eat it because of your religion. To me it seems like I bet at least some of the origin of that was there was a disease that was going through these people that were eating pigs. It's hard to say.

You know, the ones that are kosher are the ones which were burnt up in sacrifice as well. You know, there are sheep and cattle. Pull that microphone up to your mouth. Sheep and cattle and goats. Right? Yeah. You know, those were the sacrificial animals, you know, the ones that were burnt on the altar and also the ones that were eaten. But do you think that, why do you think pork was excluded from both Judaism and also from Islam?

Consumption of pork. Yeah, it didn't meet the criteria. The criteria for what? For a kosher meat. It used cut and needs to have a completely separated, completely split hoof. No, I get that. But, I mean, why did they? come up with that rule.

Oh, I think it seems to be that those are the animals that have the most amount of trichinosis, unless you're eating bears. So I don't know if they're eating any bears back then. Probably not. They're probably eating a lot of deer species. And if you tried to eat that kind of wild pork back then and you didn't cook it correctly, you probably get violently ill or die. Well, you know, there are causes, you know, there are reasons for some of the precepts

in the text. It must be, right? Yeah, they're medically established. Yeah, like shellfish, probably has to do with Red Tide, right? Well, bottom dwellers. Bottom dwellers. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting when you try to decipher it. Like, why did they have that stuff in there? Well, kind of make sense. Pigs rather do carry a bunch of diseases that can wreck human beings. Yeah. Yeah, well, the person then making the dietary laws knew that. You think that's the reason they wrote those dietary laws? Yeah, well, they didn't have meat thermometers back then, right?

So I bet a lot of people ate some medium rare pork or rare pork even and got violently ill. Violently ill. Like, trichinosis apparently is brutal. And you have it for life so that, like, if somebody eats you, they get trichinosis unless they cook it. Yeah, I had C. diff some years ago. I even wrote a book about... What a C. diff? It's potentially fatal diarrhea.

Oh, no. It was grim. Yeah, I wrote... Oh, that's right. That's the one I just couldn't do anything for a couple years. Oh, that's right. That's right. I forgot that you had that. Yeah, so I wrote a book about it.

Anybody's interested in Joseph Levy escapes death. You know, maybe that's part of me enjoying watching certain animals, you know, like, you know, animal killing animal. It kind of changes you that being, you know, that being that close, you know, to the edge. I'm sure. Yeah, you even offered to come out, you know, to visit or to, you know, do a show at my house. Yeah, when you were real struggling and we were going back and forth, you just weren't sure. if you could travel. I was like,

I was worried about you. Yeah, thanks. Because you bounded back. Look at you. You look great. Thanks. But there was a time where I was worried about you because you didn't sound like you were doing well at all.

Like you were really struggling. And so. Yeah, that's one of the things that pushed. Well, I began reading concentration in camp literature during that phase. Really? Like, how bad have people had it? And what do they do?

Wow. It was pretty inspiring. I liked reading Primo Levy. He's my favorite author, Ellie Vizal, too. Yeah. Auschwitz and the end of Auschwitz. Like, you know, the end, the last month or two. Seemed like it was really something.

You know, typhus and nobody cleaning up after them for weeks, things freezing and bursting. Oh. It was just nuts. So, you know, Primo Levy was a chemist, very clinical. took notes, remembered things in a very kind of dispassionate, almost journalistic description. The kinds of things people can go through. Yeah, you know, so that cheered me up in a way.

I mean, it distracted me like, boy, they had it way worse, and they had faith in something. So I think that helps, you know, strengthen my faith, like God wasn't done with me. Ooh. So did you feel like you had an obligation to get to work once you got healthy again? Like God gave you this chance? Yeah. This bounce back, return of the Mac. Thank God.

Yeah, it's great to see you looking healthy because I really did worry. Because it's, you know, sometimes people, a bad health trip takes them down and weakens them so much that they never really come up. back. Yeah. Well, you think about death. You must think about death. Sure. I think about death.

You have to. It's coming whether you want it or not. It be interesting to not think about death. Yeah. I don't dwell on it, but I'm definitely aware of it. Yeah, there was a week or two friends came over talking about their wishes or their interest in medically assisted death. There's a big article about that even.

a couple of months ago in one of the British journals. Yeah, medically unassisted death. You called a rabbi, and I asked his advice. And he said, you know, you might be, you know, you may be obligated to knock the pills onto the floor. I thought that was an interesting take. You may be obligated to knock the pills onto the floor. From the person's hand who was about to take.

them. Well, that would be... Oh. Yeah. Interesting. Or, you know, within, or more the equivalent. Right. You know, there might be some drugs going in IV would stop them up. Yeah, you know, so, well, yeah, like I feel pretty good.

So I wonder, well, you know, what happens if I start feeling really bad? Yeah, so, you know, I feel good, so I figure, well, I'd just keep me out of pain. You didn't give me enough, you know, morphine. I see what happens. My mom died, I watched her die. Oh, wow. And we gave her morphine out of van, too, like Valium. Yeah, it was pretty peaceful.

Yeah, it was quiet, yeah. Yeah. That's a weird thing, because you don't want anybody poisoning anybody. But you do want to give people the option to go out gracefully. Well, I think you'd just be feeling great. Yeah, exactly. You'd be feeling great. That would be gracefully, right?

Just one burst. I had a morphine drip when I had my knee operated on once in the 90s. And it was incredible. It was incredible. And people tell me this is not true, but I swear I remember this being true, that you could press the button any time you wanted more. morphine. Yeah, yeah. I think it's called patient-controlled analogies or something. Yeah. People are like, no, no, you're remembering it wrong. I'm like, I don't think I am, man. I really remember hitting

that button a bunch of times and meeting Jesus. It was like the most wonderful loving hug by the universe. It was just like this thing in bed while my leg is on this continual motion machine. You know what those are? No, but I can imagine. When they do ACL reconstructions, when they do a petal tendon graft, it's a pretty violent operation. They have to cut your knee open like a fish. They take a slice of your patele tendon along with a chunk of your bone from your shin and a chunk of your bone from your kneecap, and then they screw it all back in place. And to keep it from seizing up while you're lying in bed, your leg is on this machine that goes like this, extends it and brings it back, extends it and brings it back. Because otherwise it'll lock up and then you're fucked.

Were you awake when this was happening? Oh, yeah, you're awake. Yeah, I was awake for the operation Because my thought is I'm only going to have one knee operation I want to be awake for it So they did like an epidural Epidural, yeah So I was awake

I watched it on a monitor It was crazy crazy to watch this guy Open my knee up, screw it in place The point is While I was in the hospital bed They had this button that you could press When you wanted more morphine And I hit that button like a bunch of times

And I was like wow It felt incredible Incredible. And I only did, and I remember also thinking, boy, this could be a problem. Because I had done construction with a guy who had a bit of a heroin problem. And so I was aware that people would get like a real opiate problem. And when I was in bed, I was like, I get it. I get it now.

It feels amazing. Yeah. Well, I would say cool, but, yeah. But also, I knew that, like, my leg was fucked. I knew it was going to take forever before it felt normal again. and it was in pain, and just like, okay, I can't do anything, but enjoy this right now. Just like, let me take a couple of taps and we don't care anymore. It's called God's medicine for, you know, God's own medicine for a reason.

Yeah, it felt like a hug. It felt like the universe giving you a hug. Yeah. Well, interesting. You mentioned that one day, you were talking about faith and belief and what you based it on. I was just talking about how when I was living up in Tauas, I was feeling kind of alone and sad. And I prayed, you know, I prayed to God, you know, help me. And I felt this loving hug kind of embraced me at the moment.

Whoa. Yeah. You know, which must have been, you know, mediated, probably by endorphins too. Right. Because it, you know, it sounds pretty similar. But it's interesting that we always want to, like, dismiss. Anything positive like that? Oh, it's probably just endorphins just giving you this good feeling.

Right, but is endorphins because of or the source of? Like, which one is it? It might just be a part of it. Like, yeah, the endorphins are real, but also is the experience. It's the experience that you're experiencing. And the intention that you're putting out there. Right, right. You're not feeling the endorphins attaching to the receptors.

Exactly. Yeah. You feel wonderful. Yeah. There's something real to it. Yeah, you know, drugs are interesting. They are. Well, I...

I just wish they weren't being controlled by the cartels. Yeah. That's what's crazy. It's crazy is, like, people are not going to stop using it. I don't think... I think there's a lot of drugs you should never use kids, and there's a lot of people that should never use any drugs. But the fact that they are always going to,

and that the only way they can get them is through a criminal organization, and we haven't done our fucking one plus one equals two on that, still in 2025 yeah well a dispensary for everything you want well it's gonna be more than that man because some of that stuff's heavy so it's not just gonna be an dispensary but it also has to be some sort of a counseling center some sort of a guided trip there's gonna be like very clear ethics you know you're gonna have people that really know what they're doing and just want to help and

don't have any weird narcissistic intentions or anything else. I just want to help people. You'd have to have that, too, because there's going to be a lot of freaked out people. If you make mushrooms and acid and all these things legal, you can just go get it. Are you 18? Oh, go buy it. Yeah, I think there should be increased access. I think so, too.

I'm not opposed to, I'm just saying the reality of the new interface. If we just have all of a sudden, these drugs are not just legal, but legal and availability. for adults to buy, then you're going to deal with a whole new set of problems that didn't exist before. I'm not saying you shouldn't deal with that problem. I think it's inevitable. It's probably going to happen anyway. But those problems will be uniquely inflated by everything being legal because people are just going to go out and go fucking crazy. And why is that?

Because if you can go to the bar and you can just go buy acid, do you know people are going to just go get acid? If you could go to any corner liquor store and pick up a pound of mushrooms, like if it's just totally illegal. Because you can go to a liquor store and get a case of beer, right? You can get a case of whiskey. You can get 24 bottles of whiskey. That is death by whiskey. There's no way you're drinking that tonight.

Sir, you can't buy that many. They never tell you that. They're like, go ahead. You want to spend that money? So if you wanted to do that with mushrooms and you could go to the liquor store and buy pounds of mushrooms. Well, you know, I think with increased access, there's increased, you know, mortality. There will be.

Yeah, yeah. And there's not just that. It's like people that just, like, they ruin their brains. They're not ready for it. They're maybe they're barely hanging on as it is. And then they have too many psychedelic trips. Now they're really fucked up. And that's true, too.

You'll never hear me advocate for the use of drugs. Good for you. Yeah, I've never said people should take drugs. I say people shouldn't. Meanwhile, how many people are on amphetamines right now? A lot of people on amphetamines. I've got an amphetamine story. A friend gave me some Adderall one day.

Well, I asked him for it. I like him, he came clean. You came clean right away with no prompting. That's funny. Yeah, he was taking it for ADHD. I said, help. And I wrote this review. Well, you know, there used to be a magazine called Chamon's Drum,

which you did a book review on the DMT book. And he didn't think it should be called the spirit molecule, rather the dream molecule. I took Umbrage. So after I took the Adderall, I wrote a 20-page letter. It was pretty self, you know, I was the thing. where it inflated. So.

Yeah, and the next morning. That's hilarious. You looked at it and it was terrible. Yeah. So I didn't send it. All my friends who have done, I've never done Coke, but all my friends who do Coke that do stand-up comedy say you can't do stand-up comedy on Coke. They say you have no feeling.

You don't connect with the audience. It's like, it's like a barrier. You could kind of pull it off maybe. But you never really, like, walk in. Yeah, so you're not funny on it. Yeah, you're not funny on it. You're probably detached. You're probably self-obsessed, you know?

Yeah. It's a weird drive. I just... Well, it would be like you were talking to yourself, and you loved it. You loved your son of your fucking boys. I think Adderall's a lot like that, too, though. It's very similar. Yeah.

There's something similar to that. Yeah. In my case, it was just writing, writing, writing, writing. I was feeling like, you know, I had a lot to say. Yeah, I'm not even saying you shouldn't do it, but journalists, I know, do it. I know a lot of journalists who love Adderall. They might not even say they love Adderall, but they fucking love Adderall. I know they do it all the time.

And you can, you know, you can blame it on deadlines and, you know, having the right stories and really needing to push through because you don't have enough time. I totally get it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. But it's just fascinating how many people do it. Yeah, it was the case with P.K. Dick, he was into amphetamines. Mm-hmm. He died of a stroke.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure you're going to cook those veins. You're going to cook everything. If you're doing amphetamines all the time, you're cooking your brain, son. Do you like P.K. Dick? I haven't read him since high school, you know? Yeah, I went through a phase. Well, I was talking about St. Peter Snow. I was written by a Viennese Jew mathematician guy named Perrutz

who did St. Peter Snow, and I read all of his books. There's like eight. And, yeah, it's fun to get to know so much. So once I started thinking about Dick, well, I watched the TV show, what was I call him, the man from the High Castle, and got me interested in reading the novel by Dick and went through most of his work.

What was the movie they did based on one of his novels? I love Dick, or I love P.K. Dick. There was a movie they did based on one of his novels. Do you remember which one it was? Oh, quite a few. Right. There's one movie that... Blade Runner, that's a Minor Report.

Blade Runner. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Total recall was his, too? Total recall. We can remember for it whole...

We can remember for you. We can remember for you wholesale. is the one that was in total recall. Blade Runner was amazing. The original Blade Runner with Rutger Hauer? Oh, my God. What about the, gosh, the one with Keenow Reeves and Robert Downey Jr. And the Roto Scenario Darkly.

Scanner Darkly, through a Scanner Darkly. Oh, yeah. Alex Jones is in that, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah, so that's a novel. my dick very interesting yeah the guy with the skin or the suit that changed according to emotions

remember mood rings remember those I think that may have been they had when I was in high school they had a mood ring because you were cool if you had a mood ring when I was in high school so mood ring apparently depending upon your body temperature with light you know

different hues You never heard of it? Not really. Jamie, see if you can find mood rings. Yeah, that may have been from the 80s or something. Yeah, I'm old, dude. How old do you? I was more serious by then.

How old do you know? 73. Okay, you're older than me, Doc. I'm 58. So, you look great, by the way. You really do. Yeah. You really do.

And you look so much better than you did when you were struggling. So it's really nice to see you bounce back like that. Oh, thank you. Mood rings became a 1970. sensation. Here we go. 70s, yeah. Here we go.

So I went to high school in 81, and they were still down with mood rings if you were in the right circles. Yeah. But these goofy things, you would wear them, and they'd make your hand green, of course, because they were made out of crap, like the metal was crap. But they had these weird rocks on them that would change color. See, if you find, like, a photo of one. But like a photo of one changing color.

That's not a photo. That'd be a video. I'm sorry. I mean, you know what I'm saying. Like, a show what it looks like. They're kind of dope, though. It's kind of cool still. Is it a rock?

What the fuck is that? What does that? That's a good question. I don't know. What is a mood, let's find that out. What is a mood ring made out of? What is it made out of? Is it like a resin or something?

It might be some kind of acrylic. Right. Or is it an actual rock? Yeah. Okay. So this dude came up with the mood ring? Okay. Um, okay.

Who created the mood ring remains topic of some debate. A jewelry designer named Marvin Wernick says he invented the mood ring years before 1975, developing the idea after he saw a doctor use a thermochromic temperature measuring tape on a patient. Said he came up with the idea of a mood ring after the stress of working on Wall Street, working in Wall Street led him to explore biofeedback, a therapeutic technique where people improve their health by responding to signals from their own bodies. Huh. So what are the crystals made out of, bro?

Crystals. The crystals. What are they? What are the crystals made out? Ooh, look how pretty. That's pretty, isn't it? Like a dope ring, that's a mood ring. You know, that way, like, you could tell whether or not your significant others upset at you.

Like, let me look at your fingers. You're lying. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's a form of, you know, global communication, huh? No keeping secrets. I don't think it really works. I think it's only just, it's heat. If you go to the gym and you slip it on, you look like you're, like, really angry. Well, if your hands are cold.

Yeah, exactly. It's not going to work. So it's just dumb. It's just dumb, but people loved it when I was a kid. Yeah. I think it kind of passed me. by you got lucky you missed the dumb mood swing i was in school mood ring swing um when you first this what's interesting is when you first started those studies and you for and you published

dmt the spirit molecule did that have an effect on people taking you seriously with all your other work was it one of those things where you got labeled now you're the crazy psychedelic guy who did that nutty study? Or was there enough people that were like, oh, this is great. Now you have a legitimate academic studying this in a federally approved way. This is actually good for everybody. And maybe this opens the door. It's certainly open up the door to the discussion.

Like after you put that book out and if you read that book, you'll come to the conclusion that there's something mighty going on below the surface. of human life in general that can be accessed in this very weird way. Within a second or two. It's a banana. I've never done it the way you guys did it, but the regular way is bananas. And somehow or another, we're depriving people of this. Well, I mean, shouldn't it be the front page news?

No. As you can give this drug regularly and everybody goes to the same place. Yeah. And it's a very weird place. I think it ought to be on people's lips DMT stopped my fascination with UFOs because it was like it stopped it paused it I should say it paused it because I was like

no matter what a UFO looks like it's not as crazy as what I just saw like no matter what are you just an actual metal flying disc from another planet like yawn like that's nothing it's nothing compared to what exists in a few seconds yeah and well

would you say that you went to the same place you went back there each time was it the same place you can tell me you tell me i don't know i've done it differently and i've done it differently with sound with um icaros which was wild yeah that was wild that was like like dancing things that was really fascinating when you realize like oh that's why the music is made the way it's made like the music is perfect for that yeah you get a lot of it's perfect for the psychedelic trip. I think it insight into music by seeing it. 100%.

I think of music differently from that trip. And then, you know, I think I really want to explore kundalini yoga. I just have put it off forever. Because I've had friends that have done DMT and also do kundalini yoga, and they'll tell you, dude, if you work hard enough, you can get to that place. where you can get to that place with on the natch completely in your own mind without taking any drug at all where you could full-on DMT trip. And the guy who told me this was very reliable and had experienced DMT was also a Jiu-Jitsu black belt, like a solid guy. Like I believed him.

And he's like, you can get there. Yeah. Have you ever done or heard about that holotropic breathwork? Yes. I've done that. I've done that. And it switched me into a very highly altered state. Very highly altered state.

It felt like, you know, as long as we're talking drugs, it felt more like MDMA than it did DMT. I've had some moments before I had like a big show or something. I just really wanted to relax where I'll do deep breathing and stretching. Just deep breathing and stretching. And you get high as fuck. It's just this weird natural high that happens. Like you alleviate tension in your body and your body rewards you for it with all this endorphin rush and dopamine right and you get so friendly and so sweet you just want to hug everybody you want

everybody to be happy it's like it like releases this like you're carrying around physical tension that manifests itself in the way you view the world well and you can get out of it on your own which is nuts yeah so how do you think you know what what do you think it means that that's built into our systems i think we need physical activity and i think um we always have had physical activity so it wasn't ever a thing where you had to mandate physical activity it's like we had to stay alive so because of that there's like the body functions in that way it's only strong if it's forced to work it only has a good immune system if it's exposed a certain amount of different people and different bios it it's it's a it becomes just like a muscle does when it gets sedentary

it atrophies and your body act so that's the problem with like the human civil We get into cities. Everything becomes easier. You're sedentary most of the time. The body decays. And you're in a state where you're depressed all the time. You don't know why. Well, it's because your body doesn't, it's not designed to work like that. For tens of thousands of years, you had to be active. You have to be running around. You had to be carrying things. You had to be getting water. You had to be building things. You had to be hunting things and fishing. You had to be moving because you had to stay alive. And then all of a sudden, you're not. And I think that's one of the great dilemmas of mental health in this country that's maybe dismissed by a lot of people. One of the great dilemmas is you're sedentary. I think there were some studies comparing Prozac way back when with a routine of physical exercise and exercise is an antidepressant. So it's been recent ones with SSRIs that show that it's more effective, more effective than SSRIs.

Yeah. Because we're not supposed to be sedentary and nobody wants to be told what to do and nobody wants to feel bad. I get it, but you have to feel bad for yourself so you could feel better later. You just have to get coached. That's all it is. And don't resist it. Just embrace it. What about it was epic, though? I don't think those things are bad in the right circumstances. I don't think if you're a guy and you need to lose 30 pounds, you get on that. Come on, man, you can do that. You can lose, I'll be your friend. I'll fucking help you. Like, just stop eating sugar, stop eating bread. Get yourself on a workout schedule. We're going to say,

I'm going to get on the fucking bike in the morning. I'm going to get on that stupid fucking, I'm going to do a Peloton workout every day for a month. You'll lose 20 pounds that month. You can do it. You just have to be focused. Right. But if you're 500 pounds, if you're morbidly obese, if you're really addicted to food, you've got a real problem, I think it can help you get to a healthy path. That's what I think it's really the best for.

If you can help people get to a healthy path where they stop overeating, they can get it under control, they get it. new patterns, and then they start getting addicted to walking maybe, get addicted to feeling better, start being able to do things you couldn't do before. There's like hundreds of pages of Instagram people who, during COVID, where they were obese, wind up losing 100, 200 pounds. Do you know who jelly roll is? No, but I've seen some stories and pictures of people that were very, very, very heavy, 800 pounds.

Jelly Roll is an amazing musician, an incredible guy who, like, went to jail, he's got face tattoos, but he's the sweetest person that's ever lived. He's lost, like, 200 pounds in the last year or so. Is it a year and a half, two years? He looks amazing. Yeah, that's my heart. No is Empec. No is Empeg. Just doing it the right way, exercising.

But I just think the problem, there's always like some sort of a trade-off when it comes to what you do and don't do. Look at the size he used to be, and look what he looks like now. And that's insane. Yeah. And then insane? Amazing. Well, the sweetest fucking guy of all time, too. Yeah, you know, so you could lose that weight.

Well, it's like depression and exercise. But also, he's a wealthy star. He has access to great food. He has a reason to believe his life is going to be better. He's got a great life already. Yeah, for most people. It's just enhancing himself. Yeah.

I think for most people, like actually developing a real exercise regimen would be way harder than just taking prozac yes but that's where a guy like that comes in play we go well he do it i could do it too like what do you what do you have to do you you just have to start slow keep moving don't stop get get a schedule put it together make some progress note the progress get excited about progress keep going but if ozempic helps you like fucking i'm for whatever helps you man you know i've had a friend that was very close to suicide before he got on SSRIs i'll never say there's no one should ever take SSRIs because I don't know if he would have bounced back but he did bounce back and then he got himself off of them and then he got healthy and now he's great

and this is you know with a lot of medications a lot of them are they have just real benefits for them and I think ozempic is one of those I think if you're if you're a morbidly obese person one of the things that my friend Brigham Bueller who is the CEO of Ways to Well and Ways to well is also a pharmacy, they're a compounding pharmacy, so they make some peptides. And he said, you can make it so that it doesn't have all the negative effects by making it for the actual size of the person, so you give them the exact dose, and combining peptides that's going to prevent bone loss and muscle loss. Like, it's possible to healthily slow the process down, stop the overeating, get the

inflammation in check, get the diet in check, but it's got to be done like systemically. And they want you to do it with like a certain amount of exercise per week and they want you to eat vegetables and meat and just healthy stuff only. Throw out all the bullshit and let's try to get this train back on track. Yeah, it reminds me of that P.K. Dick story. Did you, what was I called the three stigmata of Palmer Eldridge? It's about competition between an extra stellar, interstellar psychedelic versus a terrestrial psychedelic,

which company was going to be able to, you know, sell the psychedelic or the worldview of choice. You know, the one that came from the earth, got people into perky patty's world, where everybody was this big. And they all lived in this house together and did stuff. like when I went to the beach and had barbecues and things. You know, that was the terrestrial psychedelic that was competing against an interstellar psychedelic. Which was completely horrible.

It was weird. It was like you never stopped tripping. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah, and that was gradually spreading. Oh, well, I think that's everybody's fear when they do something. Like, oh, my God, what if this never ends? What if this is my new reality? Like, oh, my God, I'm done.

I'm dead. I'm gone. It's always been this way. It will always be this way. Yeah, that was my worst trip ever. Right. And then for people with severe anxiety, some people just don't bounce back well from something like that. And that's why never advocate drugs to anybody.

I never have. Yeah. I know you haven't. Yeah. Well, you didn't even want to admit that you did them when we first started talking. Right. You didn't even want to admit you smoked pot. Yeah, at this point, you know.

But I think you thought back then, like, to be taken seriously as a researcher. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true. But I'm, you know, less of a researcher. now so I don't have that same kind of, you know, camouflage to wear. Yes. Well, I'm glad because, like, without you, the understanding of what that experience is would

be greatly diminished in popular culture. I don't think people would really understand what it is if it wasn't for that book, and I know you got to really stick your neck out to try to make something like that. Yeah. And it's bizarre, because it is a thing. It's a real thing. And you should know about real things. You should know about real things that have probably been in human use for thousands and thousands of years and

hidden from you by Nixon. Yeah, the thing I like so much about DMT is that it's endogenous. It's made in the brain. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it's what we're making when we're dreaming? It might be what we're making right now. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know, that's one idea is that it regulates consensus reality by maintaining itself at a certain concentration in the brain. I buy that, but I buy a lot of things. It's the matrix, the endometrics. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, do you know about the matrix or this red laser and DMT? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Tell people about it because it's nuts. Yeah, I don't know much about it. You haven't done it? No. So, apparently, it's a red laser, and if you're tripping on DMT and you look down or below, So you could either look from below it, look up, or from above it, look down, right? Is that correct?

I didn't know there is a directional component. I think it's a directional thing. I don't think if it's on the wall, you read it. I think you have to get above it and look down. I don't know. I haven't done it. But I think that's what they say, and if you do that, you see code. Code, yeah, like the matrix.

Yeah. Or Japanese. If there's anybody that should believe that life isn't real, it's me. Life isn't real? That it's not real. Like that maybe there is some sort of magical quality to this experience, some sort of very difficult to grasp aspect of reality that we ignore. That's spiritual or mystical or there's something going on outside of just normal physical reality. Well, I think things wouldn't be this way otherwise because certain things are encouraged and third.

certain things are discouraged. Yeah. And, you know, cause and effect goes a certain way. It's not neutral. Right. You know, it kind of pushes you in one direction. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So who created a cause and effect? What are causing effects causes? Right. Yeah. Motivations. What are, what are angels and demons? Yeah. Right? What is, where evil, where is evil come from?

We know it's real. Mm-hmm. Where does good come from? We know it's real. It's like, everybody wants to be so smart that they dismiss the idea of angels and demons. It's really fascinating. Because it's really just a word for

an actual force that creates a damaging, terrifying, or wonderful, amazing effect. Good and evil. Right. Angels and demons. Yeah. The effect is real,

and we both know that people are capable of either one. It's one of the reasons why we love people, though, is because we love great people because we know that there's terrible people. We love people that are warm and friendly and kind and sweet because we know that there's people out there that are self-serving and shitty and mean you know and that's we need one to appreciate the other and that's what's so fucked up about being a person yeah well in the text anyway angels are

intermediaries you know like you know god has nobody right so how can god interact with the world you know so the angels are the intermediaries that makes sense Yeah, like DMT in a way is the most spiritual of the physical. What do you think about the people that try to connect UAPs with angels? I don't know. Have you ever had a UAP, UFO, alien experience? No, I've never, no, not really. What about you?

No. I'm trying, bro. You're trying? How do you try? I'm trying. I get on the rooftop. I got a flashlight. No, I wish, yeah, I wish I saw something.

I wish I saw something that it was like 100%. There's no way that's ours. Right. It'll be cool. Yeah, that's never happened. But I don't think they're all lying. I don't think that's the case. I don't think they're all lying.

There's too many of them that tell a story that it just doesn't seem like bullshit. Has Whitley Stryberry been on your show? No. He's an odd one because he's a fiction writer. You know? Not that I don't believe him. But when a guy writes fantastical fiction for a living and then has a fantastical, fantastical fictional experience that actually happens to him that becomes his thing,

it's like Arsenio Hall said, things that make you go, hmm. I'm not saying that it didn't actually happen to him because his experience, it would be ironic if it did because then nobody would believe him because he writes fiction, right? But his experiences mirror a lot of the experiences from the John Mac book. You know, did you read that book, Abduction? Yeah, I knew John. Back in the day. Yeah, I liked him.

Very smart guy. Those stories, and that was back before the Internet, really, where there was any social media or anything like that back then. Those stories were oddly uniform. Well, they were. And, you know, John Mack, the psychiatrist from Harvard. or Cambridge. Yeah, we talked about the similarities between his subjects, reports, and our DMT volunteers.

He thought we had come across a technology that would make contact, at least the experience of contact, you know, something that could be studied scientifically. Jeez. Someone should reignite that idea right now. I'm surprised DMT is not in the news more Well, there was a study that they were doing in England, correct? Yeah, there's a couple groups Where they were doing a long-term drip

Not like yours, so yours was like one push I think theirs was like a drip Yeah, 30 minutes, 60 minutes Something kooky like that, yeah Yeah, and there's a group in Switzerland John Dean at UC San Diego is going to start one So there's at least three around the world Mm-hmm

It's a real place. that you can go to, and that's what's nuts. Yeah. For people that never experienced anything, and they're teetotlars their whole life, it sounds crazy. I know it sounds crazy. Yeah, well, you know, what do you think of the beings? Do you think the beings are outside of us?

Do you think they're disembodied souls? Or do you think they're inside us all the time? Well, if they're inside us all the time, then we're everything. Then inside of us is just somehow connected to everything. it's we're not individuals at all we are everything where all of us are everything if they are inside of us and they may be it inside of us

it might be the idea of like a physical boundary is just nonsense like who gives the fuck where it's from it's all everywhere all the time you just don't have access to it right now you don't have access to it in your default state because your default fundamental state is a primate

you know but it's in there and occasionally you have access to it You have access to it near-death experiences. You have access to it, holotropic breathing. But if you had access to it all the time, you wouldn't be able to exist in this barbaric state that you live in. Well, the thing it has to do with the dose. I mean, if it's really high, if their levels are really high in the brain and the mind. Yeah.

You know, this could be just a DMT simulation. I'm not the first. Right. Yeah. It could be. In which case there still has cause and effect. Well, just imagine a world where this wasn't reality. But then you got to experience this, it would be completely psychedelic.

It'd be like, what is this fucking crazy world? It'd be different. Yeah, it's the 3D and the shadow people. Do you know how weird it is sometimes if you just stand on a corner and watch people just walking and looking at their phones? Yeah, well, people have been kidnapped and they don't even know it. Yeah, there's a lot of that here. Everywhere. Yeah.

Everywhere. I moved back to Albuquerque last year. Oh, yeah? Yeah, 14 years in Gallup was plenty. Nice. So it's cool, being in civilization. I do. Nice.

Yeah, we have a front lawn and a back lawn. There you go. Yeah. Yeah, Albuquerque's home to some of the greatest mixed martial arts fighters ever. Yeah. John Jones lives in Albuquerque. Greatest of all time. Shout out to Albuquerque.

Jackson Winkle John in the house. Yeah, I love New Mexico. That's great. Well, it's a crazy state with a rich history. and beautiful landscape. Oh, my God. I have a friend who just got back from elk hunting there. He was raving about how gorgeous it was out there. The sky is great. We have a pretty cool governor. Before she was governor, she was the Secretary of Health. Oh, cool.

You know, during COVID. So, you know, she knows public health. And she's a nice lady. Do you like her? Yeah. Beautiful. Thanks for being here, man. It's a lot of fun. It always is. It's always great to see you. It's been great to be your friend. all these years. Oh, yes. It's great to see you healthy. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, same. You look pretty wonderfully yourself. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Um, is my DMT and the soul of prophet. Oh, yeah, it's right here. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's pretty old. Hold that sucker up. People can buy it. Um, it came in, um, it came out in 2014. Yeah. It's, um, you know, what's the soul of prophecy? Is it the visions or is the, is it the message?

So, and then those are the other books that are available. DMT, the Spirit Molecule, which is what got me into you in the first place. What a great cover, too, that Alex Gray artwork. Well, you know, his artwork is on the second book, too. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, that's Alex Gray as well.

He's amazing. I mean, that guy, there's no one ever has captured the DMT state quite like him. Yeah. You know? He's pretty good. And it's just beautiful work. Like, stuff. And that crazy chapel of sacred mirrors that he has now, the 3D.

printed, like chapel. Do you have any of his original art? No. No, no. I mean, I've got the spirit molecule. Oh. It's so cool. That's awesome.

It's in the hallway. He's a good guy, though. I've talked to him a few times. All right. Thank you very much. Thanks for being here. You do that. Really appreciate you.

Goodbye, everybody. Thank you.