The Joe Rogan Experience - #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Starting point is 00:00:00 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Gentlemen, good to see you, brother. Hey, good to see you again. How you been? I've been hanging, man. How about yourself?

Starting point is 00:00:17 I'm good, I'm good. And Jeff, nice to meet you as well. Nice to meet you, Joe. This is another one of your very unusual friendships, Darrell. I'm trying to make it the norm. You understand? Well, I mean, you're a real example of what can be done just by being a nice person. Hey, thank you, man, for the mention with Bono.

Starting point is 00:00:38 Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. So for people that don't know, Darrell has, I mean, how many people now have you converted? I stopped counting after 200 and some. Darrell, his journey initially started your musician. You met a Klansman at a bar, and he couldn't believe what a nice guy you were. He struck up a friendship with this guy. And I played like Jerry Lee Lewis, and he didn't understand that. That too.

Starting point is 00:01:05 The talent. And then this guy quit the Klan because of you and handed you his outfit and said, like, I'm done. Obviously, I'm wrong. All this is wrong. and you then went on to start meeting a lot of other clan members and a lot of other, you know, different neo-Nazi factions. And you got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations. Well, I got them to rethink because I gave them perspectives they had not considered before or not been exposed to. And that caused them to quit.

Starting point is 00:01:42 I wasn't like I wasn't trying to get them out. I'm just trying to show them a different path. Right. But it's just your patience and your ability to communicate to people is just very admirable. Because that's a very tough path. You know, you, for people just listening, you're a black man, you're meeting a Klansman, and you strike up a friendship. You want to have me dinner at his house, hanging out with him. He's like, you're actually a really nice guy.

Starting point is 00:02:09 He's like, what the fuck am I doing with my life? And just by your own personality and just being a good human, You converted them. But, you know, an interesting component to that also happens because, you know, there are people who won't talk to me, you know, and they want to fight me and stuff, all the kind of crazy stuff. I've seen it all, right? But some of their buddies who are just as hateful as they are, you know, when they talk to me and they end up leaving, their life improves. Hate is exhausting, you know, and hate begets more hate. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:02:43 But so when they leave, their life improves, and then the buddy who want to fight me or, or does. didn't want to talk to me, he sees his buddy's life improve, then he reconsiders. Yeah. So it has that component to it as well. And so it's been more than 200 now, which is really amazing. And I think just these conversations that you've had with a lot of people, sort of opened up a lot of people's eyes as well. It's like, you know, you think of someone like that's a KKK member, neo-Nazi or whatever it is. And you go, well, that guy's got to be a piece of shit as a human being.

Starting point is 00:03:15 and then you realize like well a lot of these people just got fucked over in life and started off on the wrong foot and were with the wrong people and got indoctrinated to the wrong ideology and experienced the wrong things and next thing you know they have this rigid idea of what the world is and how they fit in and it's all fucked up and it's all wrong and they just don't run into anyone that shows them a different perspective like if you're in a small town and you're around just a bunch of assholes all the time. You're around the same assholes. Like, you might think everyone's an asshole. Right. And then you go on vacation, you know, maybe in your whole, in Hawaii, like, God, everybody's nice here. What's going on? Maybe I have a totally different view of the world. Well, you could have that with everything. You could have that with geographical locations. You could have that with racial disparities. You could have that with everything. Well, I mean, you know, let's let's take racism out of the picture for a second. Let's look at our own country. You know, as a musician, right? I do a lot. I've played in law 50 states.

Starting point is 00:04:15 Okay, you know, and when I sign, you know, go to, I have a booking and say, let's say New York City, you know, everything's got to be on paper, got to sign this contract, and they want things like yesterday, you know, it's very fast-paced, et cetera. So, you know, you sign a contract and people adhere to it, whatever, my experience in the South, you know, say Mississippi, Georgia, something like that, they don't care about contracts even though I get one, you know, a handshake is good enough. You know, they feel that their word is their bond. And so, you know, you present them with a contract. It's like, what, you don't trust me? You know, that kind of thing. Right, right, right. In the Midwest, which is where I'm from originally, you know, it takes a while for people to get to know you.

Starting point is 00:04:56 They want to get to know you before they commit. They're very close to the vest. Out in California, it's like, I'll get around to it maybe next week, maybe the week after, you know. Right, right, right. Now, Jeff, how did you guys mean? So I was contacted by a filmmaker, and they said, would you come down and film as part of this program. So I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis.

Starting point is 00:05:18 In the movement, we knew who Daryl Davis was because he was pulling people out of this movement. Explain the movement. What movement you were a part of? I was a part of the National Socialist Movement. Which is Nazis. Nazis. For people that don't.

Starting point is 00:05:30 It sounds like socialists, like, oh, college campuses, you know, you want Marxism, free health care for all. No. Different kind of socialism. Yeah. Neo-Nazism, yeah. And how did you get indoctrinated into that?

Starting point is 00:05:44 So I was a part of that movement for 27 years. Wow. How old are you? So I'm 51. Okay, you look young. I thought you were about 40. I was like, what the fuck? Well, that's okay.

Starting point is 00:05:55 No, you look good. Thank you. Which is crazy for a Nazi. We'd think it's a lot of stress. You'd think it is a lot of stress. You'd hate to a lot of stress. Yeah, look, I lost on my hair. Well, I lost my too, and I'm not a Nazi.

Starting point is 00:06:06 So how old were you when you got into it? When I first started the fascination with it was about fourth grade. Fourth grade. Fourth grade. How? My grandfather fought Hitler's army during the war, and my great uncles did as well. So my mother and grandparents came over after the war. Wait a minute.

Starting point is 00:06:26 Fought in Hitler's army? Correct. Oh, they fought for the Nazis? Yes. Wow. Yes. So my mother and grandparents came over after the war. But so one would think, so he was indoctrinated by his family.

Starting point is 00:06:42 Not the truth, quite opposite, actually. But I was fascinated. I knew that history, and I knew that my grandfather had fought, and I looked up to him. So I sought out on a journey myself, you know, and what attracted you to that? Like, first of all, you said you have a mid-in- Detroit church. Are you from Detroit? Yes. Well, I'm based in Detroit now.

Starting point is 00:07:02 So were you living in Detroit at the time? Yes. So why, what made you fascinated with Nazis living in Detroit? Well, I grew up in rural Minnesota. No, I live in Detroit now, is what I meant. But knowing that family history, I just looked up to my grandfather, and I thought, you know, he's a strong individual. This is a, I'm just going to say it. Like, I thought it was cool at the time.

Starting point is 00:07:25 There's nothing cool about it. But I wasn't taught to hate. I wasn't raised to hate. And so I seek out this movement. I join as a teenager, quickly rise up through the ranks. Within a couple of years, I was appointed a national leader of that organization, and then I was there for 27 years. So I was taught racism and hate and to be an anti-Semite. Now, when you were in the fourth grade, do you remember what your feelings were about people?

Starting point is 00:07:50 I wasn't a racist at that point or anything like that. It was just thinking that it was cool, seeing the videos of, I remember watching old World War II documentaries thinking I'm going to find my grandfather in these footages, you know, and I just looked up to him and I sought out that path. And once you're indoctrinated, once you join and you're overwhelming. with this kind of ideology, it becomes your whole world. It's your echo chamber. Everything about it, everything that you're involved in circles around that world. And so, like, when you're in the fourth grade and you get interested in this, how do you eventually, like, join up and meet the Nazis? Like, how does that happen?

Starting point is 00:08:26 Well, at that age, you're not, you know, you're not meeting the Nazis or anything like that. Today, kids are online, and they are. Yeah, that's a good point. Right. But at that point, I wasn't. So I was searching it out, and by the time I was 18, then I'm joining. Yeah, you didn't have Kanye songs back then. Right.

Starting point is 00:08:45 That song is so crazy. Like, some of these, the Paul Kanye saw to give him a hug. That song's crazy. So what was the first organization that you, like, officially became a part of? And what did they do? So the National Socialist Movement was the group that I sought out. How did you find them, first of all? Because it was all before the Internet, right?

Starting point is 00:09:07 Right. This was a really kind of strange story. So I'm looking for books. I'm trying to read everything I can on it. I'm trying to find these books. Did you have other hobbies or just being a Nazi? No, I had, I had other... Were you like in baseball or anything like that? I was a long-haired rock and roll singer. No fucking way. Right. You are rock and roll Nazi? That's nuts. Right.

Starting point is 00:09:25 That seems like so... That's like jumbo shrimp. Right. That's so counterintuitive. How are you a rock and roll Nazi? That's rock and roll is all about like freedom and Creativity and expression. I know there's a lot of counterintuitive stuff in my life. Wow. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:43 Well, that just shows you, people are really complicated. Yeah. You know, so when you first found these people, so you're rock and roll musician, and how do you find them? So I found them in a book at the library. I'm ordering all these books, and it was written by a sociologist or something, and they had all these addresses of everybody that participated in the book in the back of the book. So I'm writing, physically writing, not like emailing today, but like writing all these organizations. And then I eventually... How old were you at the time?

Starting point is 00:10:14 Like 18. So you're 18 and you're writing Nazi groups saying, hey, I'm ready. Sign me up. Yep. Wow. Okay. So who responds? So everybody, some of the groups were closed down at that point, but most of the groups

Starting point is 00:10:27 responded and I'm looking through all the literature. And I meet up with the National Socialist Movement at the time. It was called National Socialist American Workers Freedom Movement. Again, this is the Nazis. That's a lot of words. That's what I thought. American Workers' Freedom movement. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:42 That's a lot of, a lot of. Freedom for some people. Yeah. Another counterintuitive thing there. Socialists for some people. Right. And not that socialism, not left-wing. Yeah, weird socialism.

Starting point is 00:10:56 Yeah. So, like, what were they involved in? So when you meet them, do you have to have, like, is there a vetting process? They make sure you're not a fed or sit you down? and, you know, what are you looking for? Why are you involved? Why are you interested? Yeah, and back then, the group was pretty small.

Starting point is 00:11:11 But the reason that I picked that organization, I mean, it was only in a handful of states at the time I joined. It was pretty small. It was a, it was a, the National Socialist Movement was a continuation of the movement of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was the original founder at the American Nazi Party. So that's why I wanted to join that particular organization because it had that history because I was a fan of history. I always wanted to be as close to the German movement as possible. So that was the group that I sought out. And then there is like a vetting process. You know, they want to know you sign up an application.

Starting point is 00:11:46 And later on in the group, I was doing things like having people sign non-disclosure agreements and doing background checks on people or things of that nature. I want to point this out because this is a really crazy fact. It's going to blow a lot of people's minds. before World War II, there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden. American Bund, the German-American Bund. It is nuts when you see it in Madison Square Garden. And you see, you know, the swastika, the whole deal.

Starting point is 00:12:18 And you're like, this is before anybody had connected this with evil. Right. Like back then, that was an ancient Hindu symbol. Like, there's a Hindu temple near my old house in California, and it has swastikas all over it. And they, because of the temples from the 1800s, and they have to tell people, hey, like, this is a sign. Hey, it's not that kind of swastika. Right. Back in 2018, the State Department sent me over to India to speak and lecture. And you see these symbols.

Starting point is 00:12:44 All over the place. Yeah. It's a piece, good luck kind of thing. It was also a symbol for Shodokon Karate. When I was a kid, when we would meet these Shodokon Karate tournaments, would go to the tournaments and meet these practitioners. Some of them would have swastika patches. this is in the 80s this is nuts Jamie show that photo game

Starting point is 00:13:03 oh okay show the video it's really crazy because you see this enormous crowd and this was before people had associated Nazis with a bad thing you know back then

Starting point is 00:13:19 it was just this national socialist party they thought okay we're good by the way that's how everybody used to salute the American flag Did you know that? Yes. Which is really crazy.

Starting point is 00:13:31 The Nazi salute now that Elon got in trouble for, that is how you used to pledge of allegiance. Right. And then once the Nazis came on, all right, we've got to abandon that. This is connected. Got to ditch the little mustache and no more of that. But this is a really crazy video to watch because it really makes you think, like how things can shift. Well, you know, the highest percentage of white people in this country, are of German descent.

Starting point is 00:14:00 Really? Yeah. The second highest are British descent. Yeah. Wow. I had no idea. German. I would have...

Starting point is 00:14:07 A lot of people think it's British, but it's German. I would have thought, yeah. God, that's nuts. And you notice in that video, Joe, they also have George Washington up there. Yes. They've Americanized neo-Nazism. But it was different back then, right? This wasn't a racial cleansing.

Starting point is 00:14:22 They weren't involved in eugenics. They weren't thinking of those terms, right? I think that all came later, but this was all part of the movement here in the U.S. Right. But what was the core tenets of this movement, the American Nazi movement, in the 1930s before the war? Basically, it was a German activists, and they were allied with, you know, Hitler's national socialism. That was. So was it anti-Semitic?

Starting point is 00:14:48 Was it anti-Jewish back then? Sure, yes. It was. Even so this whole rally is a big anti-Semitism rally. Yeah, I mean, that was before my time, but I were a historian on the Nazi. Yes, yes. Seems like you're an enthusiast. I was.

Starting point is 00:15:00 Yeah. So when you first get brought in, you're 18, like what, do they give you tasks to do? Do they teach you about things? Like, how's it go? Yeah. So a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you're reading and studying and stuff, but the group had like meetings. You would have literature distributions.

Starting point is 00:15:20 It would do... Like mind comp? Like what kind of reading that? Yeah. I had already read that by, at 16, I already read. read that but the group is you know recommending books like that or henry ford's international jew other other um other books like that as well is that henry for the the car guy yes he wrote a book called international jew yes you know he was very very anti-semitic and he he he supported the

Starting point is 00:15:44 nazis whoa yeah henry ford had a picture of hitler on his desk and hitler had a picture of henry ford on his desk whoa you'd be surprised man about some of the people Fuck. You know, Walt Disney, same thing. IBM at the time, same thing, yeah. Oh, I knew about Walt Disney. I had heard about Walt Disney, and I heard something about the roots of IBM as well.

Starting point is 00:16:11 Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers, right? Like Audi, Volkswagen, you know, all started off as Nazis. Even Mercedes, right? Was it a Nazi-owned company? I don't know if they were owned by the Nazi, but they were definitely a German company, yeah. That was one of the craziest things. things about the Kanye thing, because Kanye

Starting point is 00:16:30 lost his contract with Adidas because he had said anti-Semitic things. Adidas was started by the Nazis. Wow. Which is just like, wow. But that goes to show. People can advance and change. Yes. You know, the Red Cross used to not allow

Starting point is 00:16:47 black blood. And then when they finally allow black blood, they said, you know, to donate blood. When was this? Back when the Red Cross first started collecting blood, okay, because you know, as you know, or you probably know, Charles Drew, you know, a black scientist, right, was the one who discovered how to give, you know, blood transfusions, right? So Red Cross began collecting blood, and they would not take black blood.

Starting point is 00:17:13 And then when they finally took black blood, they segregated the blood. It doesn't matter if it's black person's blood. You know, you should segregate it by O positive or O, B, negative, or whatever it is, right? But not by the color of someone's skin. That's crazy. so they give you books they you know kind of indoctrines you like what is it involved in being a member champions are made and legends are tested as ufc 321 brings tom as spinole versus cyril gone to the world and draft king's sports book the official sports betting partner of ufc puts all the action from

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Starting point is 00:19:06 Basically, you know, you go to meetings. Yeah, you go to meetings. How often to these meetings? It varied. So sometimes it was once a week, other times it was once a month. It just kind of depends. It depends on the group as well. Some are very active.

Starting point is 00:19:19 Some are less active. How far were the meetings from your home where you lived in Detroit? Well, this was growing up in Minnesota. So in Minnesota, they were pretty close by. I moved to the Twin Cities. Were you shocked, but they were there close? No, no. I had been looking for them since I was a teenager,

Starting point is 00:19:35 but then by the time I was 18, I was able to find them. Did you move to be close to where the meetings are old? No, I moved to the Twin Cities because I wanted to be close to my band. They were based on there. But then early on, I was doxed on a radio show. I was going under a fake name at like 19 years old, and still had the long hair. I got it tucked up in a hat, and I went on a radio show.

Starting point is 00:19:55 show and I was doxed early on, and that kind of changed the trajectory. What did you go on the radio show for? With the movement, with the national socialists. Oh, and then you got docks as the band member? Well, no, I was... You got docs like your home address and all that stuff? My parents. So I was going under the name Jeff Stevens because I didn't want to, I wanted to separate

Starting point is 00:20:14 my music career from the movement and also protect my family because I knew this was a movement that people didn't like and that could cause put them in harm's way. And so I'm on the air, and somehow the host says, you know, your name is not, I'm spewing anti-Semitic drivel, which was pretty typical of how I behaved at the time. And the woman that was running the show, she goes, your name is not Jeff Stevens. It's Jeff Scoop, S-C-H-O-E-P. And your mother lives in this town. She's an attorney. She works here.

Starting point is 00:20:48 Your father works in manufacturing. He works here. and we're going to call your mother in the next commercial break and my world just fell apart. And, you know, I look back now and I try not to blame anybody else because these are my choices, my poor choices. So I take responsibility for that. But at 19 years old, that changed my trajectory. I felt like my whole world just collapsed at that point.

Starting point is 00:21:12 Did you think, like, wow, all these people are mad at me? Maybe I'm wrong? No. You know, you would think with this kind of stuff going on in your life, you know, you would reflect on that, but I double down. And that's pretty common in that world when someone is faced with that kind of pressure is they double down, they become more entrenched. So it's like every lash of the proverbial whip, anybody that tried to stop me from being involved in it or tried to dissuade me, it just made me more dedicated to it and more intense in that belief system. So I'm thinking

Starting point is 00:21:43 I'm going to ruin my band's career now. So I quit the band, I shaved my head, and I put all that energy that I had put into music into the movement. I felt like I had no choice. What that did, that doxing, it affected my mother's career. So, I mean, this was a hate has consequences. And hate was something that was like a downward spiral for me. And this is very common for anybody that's involved in it. It separates you from your family, from those you love. It isolates you. And what it did to my mother's career is, as I mentioned, she was a lawyer. She wanted to be a judge so she had ran to be a judge she was elected to be a judge and um in the state of minnesota there's a at the time anyways it was back in the 90s and um there was a formality and

Starting point is 00:22:32 this is the way my mother explained to me at the time she said the governor called me and she said mrs scoop uh your son's leader in the nazi party your father fought in the german army during the war i do not feel you are fit to be a judge in this state so that that was just devastating that's I carry that guilt and shame to this day for doing that. But at the time, I was like, okay, the system is after my family. That's how I felt. And it just made me double down and become more radical. Did you have a job at the time?

Starting point is 00:23:04 Yeah. What did you do for a job? I was doing all kinds of jobs, you know, working in factories and pizza hut and, you know, just anywhere I could. But your main focus was on the movement. Well, my main focus was on music until all that happened. Right. And then it became the movement, yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:19 And so, like, what are the different things that you guys did? So the group would organize, you know, social gatherings where people would just hang out and drink and party and give talks. And then there would be formal meetings where people would get dressed up and have these meetings. You would do rallies, one of the first rallies that just dressed up. Dressed up in, like, Nazi uniforms. Yeah. Like full-on German Nazi uniforms? arm bands all deal yep back then it was arm bands and brown shirts and the black ties yep

Starting point is 00:23:54 is that you yeah that's that's the old uniform yep oh that's crazy so at any time why you're doing this did you think what am i doing i'm on the wrong path this is crazy no no no no not until later when was later around the time when I met Daryl Davis. Were you already having second thoughts about the direction of your life? That's a tough one to answer. I was starting to see the humanity and others. Like after I moved to Detroit in December of 07. And Detroit's a majority minority city or non people of different races. So I'm having more interactions with people of other races. By 2016, you know, I met Daryl Davis. And like I said, I didn't I know I was meeting Daryl Davis, but...

Starting point is 00:24:50 How'd you guys meet? It was for a film, for Daryl's film, accidental courtesy. Okay, right. So they had reached out and they explained the show and I said, okay, you know, because any opportunity to spread the propaganda of the movement, I'm going to do it unless it was like Jerry Springer or something. So it sounded legit. I agreed to it.

Starting point is 00:25:08 Didn't know I was meeting Daryl. I still would have done it, but I would have probably prepared to debate this guy because I knew who he was. I knew he was pulling people out of the movement. And so this was at a place called Chris's Hot Dogs in Alabama, where Hank Williams had written a song. It was, hey, hey, good-looking. Yeah, right?

Starting point is 00:25:27 About a waitress. Right. And my girl and I were sitting outside, and Daryl steps out of a vehicle, and I'm thinking, you know, I recognize this guy. He comes up, shakes my hand, we shake hands. And he says, hi, I'm Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff Scoop.

Starting point is 00:25:43 And I'm thinking, where do I know that name from? Where do I know his face? It didn't quite register, because I'm just, just thinking about, you know, this debate that we're going to get into. And then after we sat down, it clicked. I was like, oh, this is the guy that gets people out of these organizations. So at this point, I'm the head of the National Socialist Movement, and Daryl and I are getting along great.

Starting point is 00:26:06 We're talking about music. We're talking about all these kind of things. And it clicks in my head, oh, wow, I'm getting along too well with this guy. He's the enemy, you know, or so-called enemy. You know, he's on the other side. So I better step it up here. So I pound my fist on the table. And I said, you know, Daryl, I'll fight to the last bullet for my people.

Starting point is 00:26:26 Yeah. And how would, prior to us getting together, the producer and director of the documentary is called Accidental Courtesy. They asked me, you know, they followed me around the country. I was conducting interviews with KKK members, Black Lives Matter, and different, you know, people. And they said, do you know, do you know, uh, do you know, uh, do you know, uh, do you know, uh, Jeff Scoop. And I said, I know who he is. I've never met him. Would you be open to talking with him and interviewing him? I said, sure. So they contacted him. And then they let me know, okay, we were down in Alabama at the time. He's going to come down to Alabama. You know,

Starting point is 00:27:04 you can interview him tomorrow and went to this place called Chris's Hot Dog Stand or Chris's Grill, whatever, where Hank Williams made famous. And we're going to do this interview in there. So they said They got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and so we're going to get everything set up. We'll have Jeff here, and we're going to film you when you first come in and meet Jeff. When we want to catch that on camera, then you'll sit down across from him in the booth and interview him. I said, okay, fine. So I go to the hotel, wait for their call. They call and say, okay, we're ready.

Starting point is 00:27:37 So I get in this rental car and I drive to the grill. And when I pull up, I see who looks like Jeff sitting on this bench out front. with this girl. So I'm thinking, well, that can't be him because he's supposed to be inside sitting in the booth. So I just sat in the vehicle, you know, looking at him, just trying to figure this out. Maybe he came out for a smoke or something like that. I'm watching him. He's not going inside. So I got out, and when I got out and started walking towards him, I think, you know, that is the dude. I never met him, but I knew what he looked like. I said, you know, I wonder why he's out here. So I went over, I said, hey, are you Jeff Scoop? He goes, yeah. I said,

Starting point is 00:28:12 I'm Darrell Davis. He introduced me to his lady friend. And he introduced me to his lady friend. And I said, I thought you were supposed to be inside. He was, well, I was inside. I just came out or whatever. So we walk in. Of course, they didn't get the capture the moment that we met. So they're like all freaked out and stuff. And we sat down in the booth and I started interviewing him.

Starting point is 00:28:32 And as he pointed out, you know, he was getting along too well with me. You know, just chatting, you talk about music and this, that, and the other. And he's saying, you know, you know, he's saying, you know, he's. He was a musician. I said, I'm a musician. I said, what kind of music do you like? What kind of music do you play? Well, I play rock.

Starting point is 00:28:52 And I said, well, you know rock was invented by black musicians. Oh, let's not go there. You know, Elvis Presley invented rock. No, Elvis did not invent rock, right? I said, Chuck Barry invented rock, right? And he goes, okay, well, you know, you probably know more about music than I do. You know, but what difference does it make, you know, what color the musician is? I said, well, it doesn't make any difference to me.

Starting point is 00:29:14 But obviously, it makes a difference to you because, You know, in our history books, then we talk about Ben Franklin. Who cares what color Ben Franklin is? You know, if he invented electricity, he invented electricity, right? And he goes, well, yeah, well, I know about the guy who invented peanut butter. And I said, okay, I'm serious. And I said, okay, what's his name? He thought about it, he goes, Carver, Carver.

Starting point is 00:29:35 I said, what's his first name? He said, George Washington Carver. I said, okay, very good. I shook his hand, right? And so then, what did he say? he runs the NSM, National Socialist Movement, and the whole white supremacy ideology is called the movement, right? So anyway, I said, well, he goes, you know, I said, it's a racist movement.

Starting point is 00:29:58 He said, no, it's like a white civil rights movement for white people. He goes, you know, you got the NAACP, and I said, yes. I said, but there are white members of the NACP. Can I join the NSM? He goes, no. And, you know, I said, well, why not? Well, then it's a racist movement. And then we got into it, and he goes, you know, I will fight for the last bullet for my people.

Starting point is 00:30:21 I'm like, whoa. He just kind of like, you know, flipped out here. I said, okay. Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him? Oh, yeah. Yes. That's so funny. Like, I'm keeping my ideology no matter what.

Starting point is 00:30:37 Yes, yes. That's funny. You're not going to trick me by being a cool guy. We laugh about it now, but at the time, I was pretty stressed out. I would imagine. Yeah, because I realized it. So what year was this? 2016.

Starting point is 00:30:53 Darrell, what was the first year you came on the podcast? Oh, gosh. Kind of around then, right? Yeah, 15 or 16. Yeah. So how many other different things had you done where he had known about you? Had you done, like, a lot of different interviews, a lot of different back then? Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:15 I've been, you know, doing a lot of interviews, magazines and newspapers. And so you guys were just very aware of anybody who was, like, fucking up the cause. Yeah. Yeah. With their awesome personality. I mean, think about it. You're in this movement, and you've got a guy that's pulling people out. Right.

Starting point is 00:31:36 And he's not just pulling out just anybody. Some of these people are grand wizards. Grand Wizards and shit. Grand Dragons and Imperial Wizards. Yeah. Wizards and Dragons is fucking hilarious, by the way. So after the thing was over, you know, they're, you know, meandering around, putting their cameras packed up. I pulled Jeff aside and just, you know, talk to him, just one-on-one man-to-man, no cameras, whatever.

Starting point is 00:32:00 I mean, we just talked about a couple different things, talked about women and the set and the other. And just, you know, what guys talk about. Yeah, normal. Yeah. And we exchange phone numbers. And then the following year, 2017, he was involved in that large white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, that turned deadly. And I knew a lot of the people who were involved in there, including... That was the one when the guy that car ran over people in the crowd?

Starting point is 00:32:29 Yes. And I know the guy who organized that thing. He's been in my house. You know, I've sat down with them. I've been in some of their homes, et cetera. and I've gotten when that Jeff was rethinking, you know. I thought, you know what, let me stop reading all this stuff and find out for myself. So I found his number that he had given me, and fortunately he still had the same number. I called him up. And he remembered me, of course, and we chatted on the phone. And then I had, we stayed in contact.

Starting point is 00:33:02 and then in 2020 I had a gig up in New York City and they were, you know, they booked me and said, you know, talk about, you know, how you meet these people and what you all talk about and what they think about this. I said, well, wait a minute, I can tell you about how I meet them and how I go about it, but as far as what they think about stuff, I can tell you, but that will be secondhand. I say, if you want, I can bring people because every now and then I bring a former Klansman that I took out of the movement or whatever to talk, you know, answer questions.

Starting point is 00:33:35 I said, how about if I just bring somebody? You know, whoa. You know, we got to clear that with the sponsors or whoever. So they got back to me and said, yeah, you know, who do you want to bring? I said, well, you know, let me give you some options or whatever. So I called Jeff. I said, you know, would you be willing to come out and talk about, you know, your experiences, what got you in, what got you out, et cetera?

Starting point is 00:33:57 And he said, yeah. So I called him back and said, okay, I got this guy. He was the commander of the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country for 25 years. He was a 27-year member. And they said, okay, fine. So I called Jeff back and said, okay, you're on, man. They're going to fly out to New York. And you'll come on.

Starting point is 00:34:17 And this is the first time we'd ever done anything together like that, where we both are on the same page, right? And it went over very, very well. And that was the last gig either of us had before everything got shut down for COVID. Now, when you said, this is an ad by BetterHelp. We have a lot of big holidays coming up, but before you start preparing for trick-or-treaters or make plans for travel for Thanksgiving, there's one other big day you should focus on. World Mental Health Day.

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Starting point is 00:35:59 Well, both in the same mindset, he's not fighting to the last bullet for his people. He's fighting for all people. He realizes that, you know, what he had experienced for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member, he no longer wanted to do. And so when exactly was that shift for you? So I broke free from the movement in early, in March of 19, but I was going through this process for several years. So typically you want somebody in like the work that we do. We want someone to disengage from the movement and then we work on the de-radicalization part. My journey was backwards.

Starting point is 00:36:38 So I'm de-radicalizing while I'm still involved. Now, if somebody would have told me that while I was involved, those were in fighting words, you know. But it was basically like the mind wasn't catching up with what was going on. So that's when I was starting those last years when I was involved. I'm saying this is a white civil rights group. It's not a hate group. You know, and from the outside looking at you go, man, this guy's insane. Of course, it's a hate group, you know.

Starting point is 00:37:01 And I see that now, obviously. Tell them about your girlfriends who told you was a cult. Yeah. So when I was involved, every girl that I was seeing, and I was seeing quite a few different women, just about everyone. If they would come and check out the movement, they would say, whoa, this is like a cult, and you're like a cult leader. And I'm thinking in my head, what is wrong with these choices I'm making in women? What is with these poor choices? You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:37:28 Like that's a serious cognitive dissonance. But that's the thought that goes to your head is like it's not me. So was it initially meeting Daryl that started this journey for you? Yes. It was one of the major, major first seats. And so, but you guys hadn't seen each other quite a while. And then on your own, you just started exploring these ideas and changing your perspective. Well, that. And then not long after meeting Daryl, I met a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Dia Khan. And in her film, White, right, meeting the enemy. And I'd gotten to know Dia quite well over the course of that filming. And there was a number of people that left the NSM from interacting with Dia. And she has a very similar approach to how Daryl Davis approaches things. It's about listening. It's about being curious. It's about asking questions and sharing different perspectives. And, um,

Starting point is 00:38:22 That curiosity and that sincerity, it can help restructure the way someone thinks and the way they see people. So like DSA says to me, and this is actually in the film White, Right, Meeting the Enemy, you can see the change. Like I showed a clip a lot of times at my talks, and I'll tell the audience, I'll say, take a look at my eyes in that clip because you can see it. The cameraman caught it, zoomed in on my eyes. She's saying, you know, the ideology that you, instead of telling me that I was wrong, She showed me. She says, the ideology that you stand for, the things that you believe in, they made me feel less than, ugly, not worthy as a child growing up. That's how I felt.

Starting point is 00:39:03 That's how your ideology made me feel. And no one aside from Daryl Davis had ever approached me with anything like that. I was told I was wrong. But that human connection, when you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. and I'd lost my humanity a long time ago. And what Daryl and Dia did is they cracked that door open, that window to compassion and I could see their humanity. Daryl did something very similar.

Starting point is 00:39:31 He told me about how racism and hate affected him as a child growing up. That hurt. That hurt, you know. I mean, I'm not going to say it at the time when I'm still in the movement, but inside, it really hurt. That bothered me. It's like, this is not this noble, grand cause

Starting point is 00:39:45 that I believed it was if it's causing that kind of pain and suffering to other people. So what were the steps that you had to take before you were ready to leave the movement? I hate to try everything, and I beat myself up over that a lot, but I kept saying it's a white civil rights group. I'm telling every press outlet I'm sitting down with when they're in, don't call it's a Nazi group. It's a white civil rights organization. Of course, most of them wouldn't publish that because it is what it is. But I'm going through these different changes.

Starting point is 00:40:14 I'm having rules put into the organization where the last couple of years, They changed from the swastika in the public view to using an old runic symbol, the old or run. Today they switched back. They use the swastika again. But I was doing things like that to try to change the image of the group as my own beliefs were shifting. I was trying to shift that into the party. And eventually I was like, because as a man, I thought, I'm going to fix this. I got to fix this, this mistake that I made, this terrible movement.

Starting point is 00:40:46 I've got to fix it. And there's no fixing it. All I was doing was putting lipstick on a pig. you know dressing up the nazi party trying to make it look pretty it still is what it is so eventually um after 2019 rolls around i was like i just have to i have to get away from this this is not right i can't fix this what was the response within the movement when you left not so good not so good um you can leave these organizations um and it depends uh different groups operate different ways uh what i was involved in was above ground so it's uh mostly legal um you've got

Starting point is 00:41:19 underground groups that operate a little bit differently, they'll come after you and things like that, you can leave. But if you walk away and you speak out against it, you're deemed like a traitor, basically, to that cause. So I knew that was going to happen when I started speaking out. So I didn't speak out immediately, but by the end of late 2019, it was August or September of 19, I started speaking out and denounce the movement, denounced racism. So this is before you did that event with Darrow? Oh, yeah. Yeah. By that time, I was. already out. And so how were you denouncing the movement and where were you doing this?

Starting point is 00:41:54 I did a press release and a website and made it public because that's that would be seen and understood. Now were you concerned at all about retaliation about you being attacked or them coming for you? You know there's always those concerns but I don't I don't try to dwell on those those things you know I was in a high stress dangerous environment for a lot of years so this is just another kind of a high stress environment, but I don't want people to, you know, be afraid to leave. There's no reason to be afraid to leave, you know. I mean, obviously, you got to be aware of your surroundings and wise to it, but I've, you know, I'm always prepared.

Starting point is 00:42:34 And when you were leaving, you know, when you were on your way out and changing your ideas about the movement and then leaving, did anybody come with you? A lot of people came with me. The National Socialist Movement was the largest neo-Nazi organization of its kind when I left. Today, it's quite small. It's barely hanging on. People in this movement began emailing me. People I didn't even know and ask me, is this true?

Starting point is 00:43:00 Because he'd mentioned my name or whatever else. And I said, yeah, the next thing you know, they're leaving. And I'd call him. I said, you know, do you know so-and-so? Yeah, he was in my movement. I said, well, he called me or he emailed me and wants to get out. Wow. So how many people do you think left?

Starting point is 00:43:17 Oh, hundreds left. hundreds left. How many are in? How big is the movement in total? We never had a solid number on it, but over the years I could tell you there was thousands and thousands of people that were involved. And then, you know, we would work with other organizations. So I spoke at clan functions, skinhead functions, other other white nationalist organizations functions. So because I was that high profile in that world and I wish the most high profile white nationalists to ever walk in the United States so I felt like not just walk away but denounce denounce and shit completely shift your perspective so I felt like I needed to do something

Starting point is 00:43:58 right to make up for the damage that I had done and and this is one way to do it is to help other people break free and get out of that world so and so is this a continual process do other people from the movement now start to read your stuff and see speak and then leave as well and you also have a book out just tell everybody it's called American Nazi from hate to humanity and there it is. Did you do an audio version of this? It's in the works.

Starting point is 00:44:24 Okay. Yeah, it's not out yet. So do more people continue to reach out to you that are in the movement because of this and try to get out as well? Absolutely. And we're helping people all the time. Daryl and I both are helping people all the time get out. And it's because of that presence that I had there, a lot of people will say, you know, I knew him then or I knew of him. so they'll feel comfortable in reaching out.

Starting point is 00:44:49 So it's kind of like street cred, I guess, you know. Like if you were an alcoholic for 20 years and, you know, that you have more of an ability to help other people. Yes, yes. And another thing, you know, people like Jeff and people of that status, you know, the high status, it takes, you know, while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out if they can leave. Because that's their job.

Starting point is 00:45:15 In Jeff's case, that was his job for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in. He brought in numerous people. So number one, how do you go back to those people and say, I was wrong? You got all this power. Everybody looks up to you. You're their leader, right? Their cult leader, your girlfriends would tell you. Thanks, Darrell.

Starting point is 00:45:43 But so, you know, that weighs on. on you. And then, you know, that is your full-time job while you're in there. You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi merchandise t-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, et cetera. So now you're leaving, how are you going to pay your bills? How are you going to support your family? All that kind of thing. You know, you need a job. Well, you're not trained in anything else, number one. And then what are you going to put on your resume when you go to apply for a job. I was a Nazi leader for the last 25 years. Right. Right. So, you know, all of that weighs on you. And so you need some kind of outside

Starting point is 00:46:23 support, you know, and which is a lot of stuff, you know, that I provide. Because, you know, you talk somebody and you give them another perspective and they leave. You can't just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business. Right. Because, you know, they have to, to belong to something or entry into society. And they can't go back. they've already betrayed, you know, their quote-unquote family. So they're going to find something else to get into unless, you know, you provide that kind of support. And what support do you provide them? The shoulder to talk to, connect them.

Starting point is 00:46:58 I brought him to New York, had him speak to crowds. And the interesting thing happened. I want you to tell the story about Duke. You know, show him to other people, let him know, hey, Daryl Davis is not an exception, you know, Because, you know, what I need to do, I find oftentimes is, you know, when I become friends with these people and they, the mentality becomes, you know, you know, Daryl's okay for a black guy. It's all those other black people or all those other Jewish people, you know, that kind of thing. So when I feel I can trust that individual, right, you know, that they're not going to bring harm to, I'm not concerned about myself, but I know that they're not going to bring harm to friends of mine or other people, then I will. invite them, you know, to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other

Starting point is 00:47:46 black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them, but don't agree with them. So that way they can see, I'm not the exception. Maybe they are the exception, because now they're being exposed to people who think the same way I do. Right. Now, were you doing that for money? Were you running the movement? Was that your job job? Or did you have another job as well? For a lot of years, I was basically running the record label of the movement, and that was my job as well. Oh, the movement has a record label? White Power Rock. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:17 Oh, Christ. Yeah, so that was my job, yeah. So you had to find another job, too. Yeah. And you have to find a job where they're willing to hire a Nazi. Former Nazi. Former. Recent.

Starting point is 00:48:31 Get it right, Joe. Come on. Come on, Joe. Recently, though. I mean, it's tough on a resume. Yeah. What did you wind up doing for work? It was tough. It was tough for a while. Now I help get people out of extremist groups. I speak all over the country, all over the world. I've spoke at, I've been at Nobel with the Nobel Peace Center with Diakon. I just got back from Australia, did a book tour over there. I spoke at Combat Anti-Semitism Movement. Today I do a lot of work with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, educating young people. I've done stuff even with the government.

Starting point is 00:49:06 U.S. government. I've advised other governments as well on extremism. So this is what I do now. What did you do right away, though? Like, what was the first things you did? I really had to do a lot of self-work, a lot of processing. It was... But what did you do to make a living?

Starting point is 00:49:27 I didn't. I was living off my savings. Yeah. Are you familiar with Simon Wiesenthal? Yes. Okay. So Jeff now works with the Simon Wiesenthal Center That's a complete 180

Starting point is 00:49:40 You know, he was the most famous, you know, Nazi hunter I knew Simon Wiesenthal Oh really? Yeah, I've been doing this for like 45 years And back in the 1980s I went to Vienna, Austria, which is where he lives And I had dinner with Simon Wiesenthal Wow

Starting point is 00:49:53 Yeah, and picked his brain Wow How old was he back then? He was old back then Yeah, I'm not sure how old he was He was probably maybe in his 70s maybe You know a fun fact If Werner Bond Braun

Starting point is 00:50:07 The head guy from NASA that got us to the moon If he was alive today The Simon Wiesenthal Center said they would prosecute him For Crimes Against Humanity Wow, I did not know that Yeah, he was a legit Nazi Yeah Operation Paperclip The United States brought over all the best

Starting point is 00:50:23 Nazi rocket scientists to structure our rocket program Fun fact A lot of people don't know that That's true, yeah. Well, they all had those dueling scars on their faces, too. So when I got Jeff to do the thing up in New York, he asked me, you know, is this open to the public? And I said, yeah, you know, anybody can come.

Starting point is 00:50:48 And he goes, yeah, I'm inviting a friend of mine who lives in New York. He was my chief of security, you know, while I was in the movement. You know, and now he's out. And so you go ahead and tell that. This is an amazing story. Right. So it's okay to say his name because he's public out with it. But this is Duke Schneider.

Starting point is 00:51:09 He was my chief of security for a long time. And he had left the movement before I did. And his story was, you know, it's a love-conquer hate story. So he had some kind of thyroid issues, cancer and his thyroid. And he was in the hospital. And his father's nurse was a woman by the name of Catherine. She's the African-American lady. And she was there with Duke in the hospital, and he's like, Catherine, you don't have to stay here at the hospital with me.

Starting point is 00:51:38 You know, you can leave. You don't need. I might be here for a while. And she says, I am not leaving your side. I'm going to be here in this hospital until you walk up out of here and you're better. I'm going to stay here. You know, so don't argue with me. I'm going to be here.

Starting point is 00:51:51 And at that moment, Duke looks to her and he says, when I walk up out of this hospital and get better, I'm going to marry you. Whoa. And they have been married ever since. And this is one of the, I mean, this couple, if you see them, you'd swear they'd just like high school sweethearts. They're just amazing, amazing people. There's Duke Schneider, yes. That's crazy. Wow.

Starting point is 00:52:16 So, you know, this goes to show, Joe. I mean, we all, you, Jeff, me, anybody we know when we were kids, we were told a tiger does not change its stripes. A leopard does not change its spots. That's who they are. And that is true. You know, so why would we think that a Nazi or neo-Nazi or a Klansman would change their robin hood or their swastika armband or something? Well, that's where we're wrong. The stripes and spots on the tiger and lion are immutable characteristics.

Starting point is 00:52:43 They're born with those. They can't change them. But the clan, robin hood, and the swastika are acquired. That's learned behavior. And what can be learned can be unlearned. Jeff is an example of that. Duke Snyder is an example of that. When I first got into wanting to meet these people, I wasn't trying to get anybody out,

Starting point is 00:53:05 and I still don't really try to get people out. I just wanted an answer to that question that plagued me from the age of 10. How can you hate me if you don't even know me? Just tell me that, and then you go your way, I go my way. But what happened was during the conversation, you know, you start off this far apart on the ideological spectrum, you talk to somebody for five minutes, that gap narrows because you found something in common. You keep on talking. Now you're here. You found more in common. At this point, you're having a cordial relationship with your adversary. You know, you might not be going out to dinner with him or whatever, but you're having a cordial relationship. Keep on talking. And you found more in common, and now it's like a friendship. You don't agree on everything, but you have found more in common than you have in contrast. And the trivial things that you found in contrast, like skin color or whether you go to a church or synagogue, a mosque, or a temple begin to matter less and less. because it's caused a cognitive dissonance.

Starting point is 00:54:01 And so when the first person left, I thought, this person, this is a fluke. You know, this guy probably wasn't invested in it fully. But then it happened again and again and again. And I thought, okay, well, now something I must be doing when I'm interviewing these people is back when I was writing my first book. What am I doing? And I narrowed it down to about five core values that everybody wants,

Starting point is 00:54:26 between traveling with my parents as a child in the U.S. State Department Foreign Service as diplomats and now traveling as an adult musician and lecturer. I've told you before I've been to all 50 states. I've been to 64 countries on six continents. And I can tell you this. No matter how far I've gone from our country, right next to Florida, Canada, right next to Mexico, or halfway around the globe, no matter who I meet, maybe around the world, they don't look like me or speak my language or worship as I do, not worship at all. I've always concluded that every person I've met is a human being. And as such,

Starting point is 00:55:02 every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. We all want to be respected. We want to be heard. We want to be treated fairly and truthfully. And we want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family. And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values, when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we're unfamiliar or uncomfortable, I'll guarantee you that your navigation of that society, that culture, that situation will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive. And so that's what was happening because these people have been interviewed before, but they

Starting point is 00:55:44 didn't leave. So that is how you talk to people, more so than what you say to people and how you listen to them, you know. And when I say respect, it doesn't mean. mean that I respect what they're saying. I'm respecting their right to say it. Right. And so I think, you know, that's been one of the key things that worked with Jeff and worked with other people. And when it started happening more and more, I realized I stumbled on to something and I needed to keep doing this. And that's why I'm still doing it today. And Jeff and I go out, you know, oftentimes.

Starting point is 00:56:18 We just came back from Indianapolis. A few weeks ago, we were in Orlando speaking to the Holocaust Center there and wherever else. When you look back on your life and you think about the enormous amount of time that you spent in the movement and now being essentially of a completely different mindset,

Starting point is 00:56:38 what does that feel like for you when you look back on yourself? It's like two different people. So like a lot of times when I'll speak about that life, I'll say that was my past life. You know, I know it's not my past life. It's still the same life.

Starting point is 00:56:51 But it is like looking back at a different person. Like when I started doing work with the Wiesenthal Center, one of the things was after talks, a lot of people in the Jewish community were like, I don't get it. You're such a nice guy. I don't get it.

Starting point is 00:57:06 It doesn't make sense. So we started showing video clips of my speeches and things that I did when I was in the movement ahead of those things. And I was always, and then people are like, oh, now I get it, you know, because they could see it. They could see how different that was

Starting point is 00:57:22 and how different the person is. Not the person, nice guy that they met, but that's who I was. So, and I always try to get out of showing those clips. I'm like, could I be backstage or somewhere else? Because I don't want to look at it. Like, it's hard to, I mean, I can look at it. Obviously, I do it all the time. But it's tough.

Starting point is 00:57:41 It's tough because it's like, man. Does it feel shame? Shame, guilt. You just feel terrible about it. So I think that drives a lot of the work that I'm doing now and is to help others. and to repair some of that damage that's been done. Well, I think your perspective is very important for people to understand that, you know, someone can shift their mindset and that just because someone has a hateful,

Starting point is 00:58:08 evil ideology they've attached themselves to doesn't mean they're a hateful, evil person inherently. It's learned behavior and learned thinking. And this is the problem with human beings is we're incredibly malleable. You know, human beings are. We follow the leader and we adopt ideologies and we're also very tribal. So you become a part of a group, whether you call it a family or a team or whatever. You hate the other people because they're the enemy now.

Starting point is 00:58:39 It's us against them and we're all in this together and that unites everybody. It's a part of the movement and it makes you feel like you're a part of something bigger. Yep. Yeah, it's a trap. It's a terrible trap and it's a trap that human beings can easily fall into. And you see it with political ideologies, you see it with religion, you see it with everything. I mean, people just, we are very tribal, and that can manifest itself in some very disgusting thinking. I want to add something to that.

Starting point is 00:59:10 I think you're 100% right for the most part, but the tribal thing never came into play with me, and nor did it come into play with other people who, who were raised the way I did. I was. I first started traveling abroad overseas at the age of three in 1961. I was born in 58, so I'm 67 now. And my first introduction to school was abroad.

Starting point is 00:59:40 The State Department assigns you to the American Embassy in some foreign country for two years. And then you come back home at the end of the two years. You're here for a few months, maybe a year, and then you back over to another foreign country for two years, back and forth, back and forth. My dad's job, as a U.S. diplomat, was to foster better relations between a foreign country and our U.S. government, right? So, which is why, you know, we're overseas.

Starting point is 01:00:01 So my first introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. The in-between grades I would do back home here, right? My classmates abroad, now we're talking about the 1960s. My classmates abroad were from all over the world. Because anybody who had an embassy station where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this little desk here might have been from Czechoslovakia,

Starting point is 01:00:33 that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from Japan, you know. If you open the door to my classroom and look in, you would say, oh, you know, this is a United Nations of Little Children. That's exactly what it was. That became my baseline for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come home, I would either be in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And just because desegregation was passed four years before I was born in 1954 by the Supreme Court,

Starting point is 01:01:02 schools did not integrate overnight. It took years and years. And even in some places today, in 2025, this country is still struggling with integration, right? So that became my norm, you know, this multicultural thing. I didn't know tribes. Everybody was part of my tribe. And that's why I didn't understand. racism because, you know, now if I had grown up here my whole life and my first experience

Starting point is 01:01:26 with somebody who did not look like me was having bottles and rocks thrown at me at the age of 10 in a parade, maybe I wouldn't be doing this work today. Maybe I would be, oh, I'm going to stay away from those color of people. Right. That kind of thing. So I didn't know tribalization simply because of my growing up experience. Very unique experience. Exactly. And most Americans didn't have that. Now today, you know, and back then, you know, you buy your kids, in time of 1960s, you buy your kids dolls. I had G.I. Joe dolls, right? You know, I don't have any siblings, but, you know, my friends, you know, they have Barbie dolls. And back then, all the G.I. Joe's were white. All the Barbie dolls were white. So black kids had to play with little white

Starting point is 01:02:10 dolls. There was nothing that looked like them. Today, you have, you know, all kinds of color of dolls and nationalities and ethnicities, which broadens the scope of these children. So when they see the real deal walking down the street, you know, well, that's my favorite doll. So, you know, I'm okay with that person rather than, you know, you reinforce that tribalism by buying your kids the dolls that look like you and your parents. Yeah. Well, that makes sense.

Starting point is 01:02:38 And it also sets you up to be uniquely qualified to do what you do, you know, like as a person who did grow up around so many. different people. So I try to share that, I guess, you know, vicariously. Yeah. With people. Jeff, did you grow up around, I mean, other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people? Yeah, so where I grew up is like in the middle of the cornfield, basically. I grew up in a little town. It was barely a thousand people, all white, basically. The only interactions you had with other races was typically in the summertime, like when farm workers would come up from Mexico.

Starting point is 01:03:15 and things like that, and a lot of times people just didn't talk to them. So I didn't really have in any, hardly any interactions with people of other races. So where did the negative ideas about other races come from? The movement. It came from the movement. All from the movement, not from personal experience at all. Nope, nope, I did not have bad personal experiences. In fact, even to this day, most of the bad personal experience I had with other people.

Starting point is 01:03:38 I mean, I've had assassination attempts. I've got scars from attacks, all white people. And this is assassination attempt. Isn't that ironic? Is this post-leaving or during? During. During. Why are they trying to kill you?

Starting point is 01:03:51 Well, Antifa tried to get me the scar across the back of my head was from a tire iron. What happened there? It was they infiltrated the organization and we had went to a, and this is in my book, American Nazi, by the way, but we had went to a Rochester, Minnesota and to pass out leaflets. and it was myself and my roommate and then two other guys that had infiltrated. And at the end of the night, to make a long story short, I'm reaching into the trunk of a car. And as I'm reaching down into the trunk of the car to pick up this box of merchandise from the record label, the guy pulls out a tire iron and smashes me across the back of the head

Starting point is 01:04:35 and says, we're here to kill you. And it felt like being scalped. the whole back of my head was a scalp was hanging down and I just I didn't get knocked out I would have been killed if it would have been knocked out I just remember stumbling putting my hand across the back of my head and it felt like a wet sponge and just kind of staggering and my roommate blocked another hit because the guy tried to hit me again because I didn't go down and by that time I'm just kind of stunned staggering concussion whatever you want to call it and started stumbling into traffic in the middle of the street and then you know

Starting point is 01:05:13 he had gotten away from the guy and pulled me off to the other side of the street. And, yeah, that was one incident. So there's multiple times people try to kill you? Yeah, I've been shot at, yeah. And this is all. I've had stabbing. People try to stab me too, yeah. This is also why you're in the movement.

Starting point is 01:05:30 Oh, yeah. And who was shooting at you? Gangs. Yeah. So people that had just found out that you guys were Nazis and they just tried to shoot you? Well, we were, I mean, we were wearing the symbols everywhere. Like, I mean, flight jackets with swastika patches and stuff like that. So, I mean, that was going to be a – that was pretty volatile,

Starting point is 01:05:50 especially in different neighborhoods. When you talk to other people that have left the movement, do they have – like, is there a pivotal moment in a lot of these people's lives where they realized that this was the wrong path? Is it an accumulation of other people's experiences that they take into consideration? like what is there a main factor it really is different for everybody but usually it doesn't happen like a snap of a finger you know like i could you know like we were talking about hundreds of people have left the movement i can think of just like on one hand the people that have left over like one act of kindness or one one simple thing very few people do that it's usually a process so they're

Starting point is 01:06:31 going through this shift in thinking kind of like i was um and they're they're questioning it they're questioning like well what it's there's a lot of cognitive dissidents there's a lot of confirmation bias that takes place and they're having experiences sometimes with people of other races that helps you know where it doesn't fit the narrative of the movement what's being spewed so they're they're fighting with this in their head for a long time for different people it's different things sometimes it's just seeing the humanity and the people that you want to dehumanized path you're on, does it, I know it must feel very rewarding, but interacting with so many people that have been indoctrinated into hate, does it sometimes feel overwhelming?

Starting point is 01:07:23 No, it doesn't. I mean, I've had some disappointments, you know, people, not everybody's going to change, you know, on either side, black, white, you know. Have you had people that were close, they were close to this shifting and they fell back in? It's like alcoholics who fall off the wagon, you know, that kind of thing. But I've had some who I never thought would change. I mean, there'll be people on all sides who will go to their graves being hateful, violent, racist, whatever, anti-Semitic. But even some of those I've had come back and change. But I know not all would do it.

Starting point is 01:07:57 Some would just die hard, you know. They're not going to change for anything. And so I don't give up on those people, but I move them down my list of priorities. and deal with the ones who are open to talking. I mean, even though they're just as hateful and violent and racist or whatever, if they will talk, there's an opportunity to plant a seed. The seed's not going to bloom overnight, you know. So when it happens, great.

Starting point is 01:08:23 You know, then I move my way down to the ones who didn't want to talk to me or we got into some kind of scuffle or whatever, things like that. But as I was telling you before, when their buddies change, and they see that life improve. Sometimes it's a wake-up call for them. Because, you know, initially they think there's nothing this black guy can do that's going to help them. Who the hell is he to even think?

Starting point is 01:08:49 You know, I'm the superior one. He's the inferior one. But when they compare their life to their buddy's life, and now he's living superiorly and getting along fine, you know, I want that. So now they come around. And for some people, it's something, Staggering, you know, like, I can think of, I'm just thinking of a couple of the cases that I've worked on.

Starting point is 01:09:10 And, like, one guy, his son committed suicide, and he had brought his whole family into the movement. And he felt like it was the ideology that did that. And that's what helped shift him. And this was a lifelong guy. Like, this guy's in his 60s. You know, he'd been in forever. I would have never, like Daryl said, never, you never think some people are going to change. And he changed.

Starting point is 01:09:28 And there's another family that I helped out this last year. And they've got 11 kids under the age of 18. And they started, for them, it was. seeing how it was affecting their children. A lot of them, some of them have, you know, disabilities and things like that. And they were seeing how the quality of life, you know, being involved in this is, it's heavy.

Starting point is 01:09:49 It's, it's, it's, it's a great burden. It's not, and it's not something that you wish on your children. It's not something that you want them to move forward with. So for them, it was seeing how their children were affected. Well, having children also just changes your understanding of people. you start realizing like babies learn from their environment and they're all, you know, really innocent. They come out of the womb, just innocent children.

Starting point is 01:10:14 And you see them grow up and evolve. And you realize like how much of what makes you a human being is just learned, learned behavior. Yep. Daryl, you're still a working musician. So how much of your time is dedicated to helping people leave these movements? It seems pretty significant.

Starting point is 01:10:35 Yeah, it's really flipped around a lot. You know, when I first started this, it was like maybe 75% music, 25% other, you know, this work. But now it's probably the exact opposite now. I just take the gigs that I want to do. You know, if it's something, you know, that I feel like playing, I'll take it. I've turned down more gigs in the last few years than I have accepted.

Starting point is 01:10:59 And does this feel right to you? or do you sometimes wish that someone else would, like, carry the baton? Well, you know, I wish people would carry the baton and improve upon what, you know, what I've done. I'm just one person, but, and there's always room for improvement. Somebody can, you know, take my template and make amends to it or whatever. I would hope, you know, people would be inspired to do that, and there have been some. But, I mean, would you rather have more time for your music? Like, that's...

Starting point is 01:11:32 Well, I put it at this. way. Music is my profession, for sure. But improving race relations is my obsession. And I would much rather, much rather, be on stage, playing my piano with my band, seeing people smiling and dancing and clapping their hands, then going to a clan rally and watching people in robes and hoods march around a burning cross yelling white power. You laugh, but that's what I do. I know. I mean, it's crazy that you do that.

Starting point is 01:12:03 and have any feeling of safety while you're there? Well, I mean, there are people who don't want me there and they resent it and they get into it with their leaders and their leaders end up banishing them and stuff. But, you know, Jeff can tell you, you know, because he's been to a lot of clan things as well as his own organization, it's run kind of like a paramilitary, all right? So you have two kinds of rallies.

Starting point is 01:12:26 You have public rallies and you have private rallies. So a public rally is, you know, you want to have your clan rally or your Nazi rally over here in the park on Main Street. So you've got to go to City Hall or wherever and apply for a permit, right? That's public route, it's public park. So anybody can come.

Starting point is 01:12:42 You can come, I can come, whatever. Now, if there's potential for violence or whatever, there's going to be a barricade of police in between the ralliers and the protesters. So they can't meet each other, right? You can yell and scream over the police head, right? But if it's in some rural place, like he's talking about in rural Minnesota,

Starting point is 01:13:01 you know, anybody, everybody can go. There's not a whole lot of police presence. It's mostly white people. But if it's a private rally, it's on private property. One of the members might have a farm. Okay, you know, we can have the rally on my farm. We just can't walk on somebody's farm unless you're invited. So you have to be invited by one of the higher-ups, in his case, the commander,

Starting point is 01:13:25 in the clan case, the imperial wizard or the grand dragon. And so it's like a Simon says. If the leader invites somebody, then all the members have to respect that you don't bother that person, whether you like it or not, you know, otherwise, you know, you'll suffer some consequences. And why would those leaders invite you? Curiosity. I treated them fairly. I applied those five core values. I'm writing a book. I need to know what goes on at a rally. You all say, you know, you don't do anything malicious or whatever. Well, show me. You know, let me come see the rally. Like if you're going to write a book on football, you can go to the library and get tons of books and research it and write it and have never gone to a football game. Right.

Starting point is 01:14:09 Right. Okay. But if you really want to, you know, write an accurate one and from personal experience, you need to go see a football game. So how am I going to write a book on the Klan from A to Z without ever seeing a Klan rally? So that's why I want to go and I explain that to them and, you know, say, okay, you know, so I've been to both private and public. Who's easier to convert? Klan people or Nazi people? I would say probably Klan people.

Starting point is 01:14:40 They are, depending upon the individual groups, because I don't want to say that a white supremacist of any group or even individual races is stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. They come from all different walks of life, all different educational backgrounds, reasons for joining, et cetera. But the Nazi movements, not so much the skinheads. The skinheads are very disorganized, disjoint it. They go off the rails that don't listen to anybody, you know, within their own command or whatever,

Starting point is 01:15:10 where the clan does have some respect for their, or a lot of respect for their higher-ups, you know, the Great Titan, the Grand Dragon, the Imperial Wizard, etc. But the Nazi movements, a lot of the larger ones like his, his former movement, it's very militarily run and there are quick consequences if you step out of line so you know I don't like Joe Rogan on my rally ground

Starting point is 01:15:38 but my Grand Dragon wants him here I'm gonna be cool I'm not gonna say a word to him I'm just gonna stand over there because I know if I if it gets in my face I might say something and then I'm gonna get banished or whatever So it's very much run like a military

Starting point is 01:15:50 absolutely ways yes did you guys train did you have like training exercises and different things that you did? Yeah, later on in the group, there was a paramilitary training. There was a rank structure. So people, you know, like the military, and it was very, very controlled in that sense. So when you say paramilitary training, what were you preparing for? In these movements, they believe that the United States government is going to collapse, whether that's through a race war or civil war or

Starting point is 01:16:17 anything like that. And this goes far right, far left. Most extremist groups have this, or even, you know, the jihadi type religious extremism. They have this idea that they're going to rise up and be the leaders of the future tomorrow. So groups like this prepare, you know, so they do like, you know, what you call like militia training, I guess. Jeez. So now, interestingly enough, right, he mentioned the word militia, okay? So when you have very subtle nuance here, when you have a bunch of white guys who go out in the woods, woods and practice shooting and they're in their camouflage and practice survival skills and all

Starting point is 01:16:59 that kind of stuff. They're called militias. But when you have black guys, black groups that do the same thing, they're not called militants. But it's the same thing. But the word militant has more of a negative connotation than the word militia. Really? Yeah. Interesting. Who's using these terms? By who's standard? By the general public stand, especially, you know, white people, we use those terms. They were referred to as being militant. Well, you very rarely hear about, when you hear about militias, it's usually kooky white people. It's usually like white people in Idaho or, you know, some groups outside of Cordellane.

Starting point is 01:17:42 Right, and the Aryan nations. Yeah, the people in Washington state. But also, Michigan, where his state, they have a lot of militias in Michigan. Timothy Mithvei, you know, was part of a militia. And there are other ones. And they have different names to cover up like he used Jeff Stevens

Starting point is 01:18:01 to cover, you know, the thing. Like there was a clan group out of Texas. It was the, what was it, something, ambulance service. You know, just a store window name to cover up the real organization. But speak to to the recruitment. Today, I mean, these groups have always, you know, since the beginning of time,

Starting point is 01:18:26 or the beginning of their inception, have always recruited law enforcement and military people into the ranks of the group. But now it's even more concentrated where they really are going after a lot of law enforcement and military, especially those people, veterans, who've only been in the military Air Force Army, Marines, Navy, whatever, for two years. They feel that if somebody's in there for more

Starting point is 01:18:56 than two years, they've become loyal to the government. So you really can't. It's harder to pull them. And then at the two-year point, these people have training. They have training in weaponry and bomb making, explosives,

Starting point is 01:19:10 and survival skills, all that kind of stuff, which is what these people want to prepare them. So, you know, you all served overseas and fought for the country over there. Now why don't you come fight for our country right here? Because this is going on in our cities. You know, look what's happening in Washington, D.C., and Chicago. The Jews and the blacks are taking over and da-da-da.

Starting point is 01:19:32 Come fight for us here domestically. And so they get lured in, and then they learn these weapon skills. And then they turn into lone wolves. That's why we're seeing so many lone wolves. But what's actually going on here, Joe, is this. I learned this back in 1982, all right? Let me go back a little further than 1982. 1974, I'm age 15 in the 10th grade, sophomore in high school.

Starting point is 01:20:05 And we had a class called the POTC, which stood for problems of the 20th century. Had a great teacher. It was a class for seniors, 12th graders, but I was taken as a 10th. he'd bring in different controversial speakers, talk about different abortion, you know, all kinds of controversial things back then. And one day, he brought in the head of the American Nazi party, all right? Now, as Jeff pointed out, the Nazi party was founded by a fellow named George Lincoln Rockwell. And by the way, one of Rockwell's daughters who long ago disowned her father was a teacher at my school. But a lot of people didn't know that. But anyway,

Starting point is 01:20:45 George Lincoln Rockwell was murdered by one of his own Nazis, a guy named John Paltor. It was founded about 35 minutes from my house in Arlington, Virginia. And John Poulter shot and killed Rockwell out there on the street on Wilson Boulevard. So Rockwell's right-hand guy was a guy named Matt Cole, K-O-E-H-L. And on this day in 1974, Matt Cole and his right-hand guy, they're the heads of the American Nazi Party now after Rockwell. came to my school, to my class, and they spoke to my class.

Starting point is 01:21:19 Now, you could never do that today, you know, but I'm glad we were able to do that back in 1974. You know, I wish that kind of thing would happen today, so people can see what's, you know, freedom of speech and all that. Matt Cole pointed at me and pointed at another black kid in my class and said, we're going to ship you back to Africa, and then he went like this, and all you Jews out there, you're going back to Israel.

Starting point is 01:21:42 Now I'm 15 years old, I just sat there like looking at the guy, Like, what on earth is this man talking about? I didn't say anything to him. But one of my classmates was a girl piped up and said, well, they live here. You know, what if they don't want to go? And Matt Cole said, oh, they have no choice. If they do not leave voluntarily, they will be exterminated in the upcoming race war. That was the first time I ever heard the term race war.

Starting point is 01:22:06 Now, I was already fascinated by racism since I was 10 years old, right? But race war, what is this man talking about, right? And so I began buying books and all kinds of stuff, learning different terminology for it, which will come later. Like, for example, the white supremacists, they have two terms for the race war. One is Rahoa, R-A-H-O-W-A, Raha-O-A, Raha-O-A, which are the first two letters of three words,

Starting point is 01:22:31 racial, holy war. Also, they call it the boogaloo. So if you hear that term, they're not talking about the 1960s, you know, dance music, instead of talking about the race war. And so Matt Cole talked about the race war. Well, I graduated two years later, 1976 from high school. I graduated from college in 1980, four years after that.

Starting point is 01:22:54 And like I said, racism became my obsession. I did not confront Matt Cole in school because, you know, my peer group back then, you know, we're raised. You have respect for your elders as figures of authority, whether you're them or not, you still respect them. And so, you know, I didn't confront him like that. But now I've graduated from college, right? And I graduated in 1980 at age 22. In 1982, I'm age 24.

Starting point is 01:23:25 I had developed contacts with different people. I knew where some of these groups were, et cetera. I found out about a demonstration, an unpublicized demonstration by the American Nazi Party that was going to take place in front of the White House. There is a park right across the street from the White House called Lafayette Park. 24-7, 365 days a year, there is somebody in that park protesting something. Nuclear weapons, the environment, abortion, you name it, they're there all the time.

Starting point is 01:23:54 And they face the White House with their billboards and whatever. So I found out the American Nazi Party was going to have a silent, unpublicized demonstration, which means nobody knows about it, not even the police, right? So I'm going to go down there and see them. Now, back then, you could drive up and down the 1600 block of Pennsylvania Avenue, which is where the White House sits. And I only live, you know, about 30, 40 minutes from there, you know, 15 minutes from D.C. on a non-rush hour day. So I go down there early.

Starting point is 01:24:25 They're going to be there at 12 noon. I parked my car a caddy corner to the White House. I wait. Here comes this van. About 13 to 15 of these Nazis get out, right? And who do I see? Matt Cole and Martin Kerr. The same two guys

Starting point is 01:24:40 from eight years ago who came to my school. You never forget the face. I mean, I can look at my hand right now and see his face right there. You know, you never forget the face of somebody who tells you they're going to ship you somewhere

Starting point is 01:24:50 whether you want to go or not and if you don't go... Or exterminate you. Exterminate you if you don't go voluntarily, right? So, anyway, Matt Cole gets all his Nazis lined up. They're not wearing anything

Starting point is 01:25:03 that indicates they're Nazis. They're wearing just dark black suits. And they're standing in like this, facing the White House across the street, like this. It's lunchtime in D.C. People are walking by not even known who they are. I know who they are. I guess maybe the White House might have known who they were. So anyway, once he got them all lined up, I walked right over to Matt Cole.

Starting point is 01:25:23 And I said, Matt Cole. He, like, jumped. Like, who was this black person calling my name, you know? And he says, do I know you? And I said, well, you spoke at my high school. And what high school would that be? I said, Wooten High School in Rockville, Maryland. And he goes, yes, yes, yes.

Starting point is 01:25:40 I remember you? That was a long time ago. And I said, yes. Yeah, he remembered me, yeah. And he said, yes, that was a long time ago. I said, yes, that was eight years ago. He goes, yes, yes, I remember. What can I do for you?

Starting point is 01:25:54 I said, well, I'm still here. He says, I can see that. How can I help you? I said, well, you can tell me just who the hell gives you the authority to make permanent travel arrangements for me. And he says, what's your name? I said, Daryl Davis. And then he did something I've never forgotten. He shook my hand, and he held my hand real tight, and he shook his finger in my face. And he said, Mr. Davis, you have to understand one thing. It was in the interest of your race, the black race, to be a strong race.

Starting point is 01:26:24 And you cannot be a strong race unless you are a pure race. And you cannot be a pure race if you are miscegenating with other races. It was in the interest of my race, the Aryan race, which is what he calls white race, to also be a pure race, and we cannot be a strong race, and we cannot be a strong race if we are miscegenating with mongrel, I mean, with our mud races such as yours, we are becoming a mongrel race. So anybody who's non-white is a mud race, and he's fearing that his race is dying out, becoming a mongrel race by mixing with other races. So he says, until the racists understand that they cannot miscegenate, we cannot live side by side. We cannot live together. And what do you hear there, fear? Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:09 So he, you know, I talked to him about, you know, maybe 20, 30 minutes. I wasn't there to beat him up or cuss him out. I just want to understand where he's coming from, right? And so a few months later, they applied for a permit. They had their national American Nazi Party recruitment, in Washington, D.C. So people came from all over the country, right? And now this time, it was publicized. So you had, you know, you had about 50 of them show up. And there were tens of thousands of people that came to protest from New York, Richmond, Virginia, Baltimore,

Starting point is 01:27:44 all over. So you have every police department was there to, and there was rioting all kinds of craziness going on, right? You could not get to, I went there with my secretary. You could not get to the, to the Nazi. I saw Matt Cole and them. And now, of course, they're wearing their Gestapo uniforms with the SS and Signals, flying swastika flags, and all that kind of thing. But you couldn't get to them because if the police have their shields and their batons and pushing people back, right? So then people, they came with bricks and all kinds of stuff and began throwing them over the heads of the police to land on the Nazis gathered in this opening in the park. And so the cops began tear gassing everybody, and then it came a full-blown riot. People were turning over police cars, breaking out the windows, kicking out the headlights, setting buildings on fire in Washington, D.C.

Starting point is 01:28:34 You can find it on YouTube. And so anyway, this is before Internet, right, 1980s. My secretary and I go home, we watch the news. And there's Matt Cole sitting in the studio of one of the network TV stations, NBC, CBS, ABC, whatever it was. And he's talking to the anchor person. and they're showing footage of the riot in D.C. that day. You see, you see, it's the blacks and the Jews who are turning over the police cars and trying to attack us. You don't see the Nazis turning over the police cars?

Starting point is 01:29:08 It was then that I realized what he was doing because he was a pretty smart guy, just smart in the wrong direction. I couldn't figure out why would he have his national recruitment rally to recruit people into the Nazi party in Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. is two-thirds black. There are no black people in D.C. who want to join the American Nazi Party. There are no Jews in Washington, D.C., or Jews anywhere, who want to join the American Nazi Party. So why D.C.? Because he knew that would happen. And he has the official footage from CBS, ABC, NBC, he takes that footage, goes out there to Cordillane, Iowa, Idaho, or Washington State, the Pacific North. West and says, you see what's going on in our nation's capital?

Starting point is 01:29:57 Our country is being run by Zogg. Zog is a very common term in white supremacy, ZOG. It stands for Zionist occupied government. Oh, boy. Yeah. And so he shows this, you know, rioting, you know, of all these people who he alleges are blacks and Jews destroying and denying people their right of freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. So then it's a recruitment tool.

Starting point is 01:30:21 So I learned that And I realized what he was doing And I've seen the Klan do the same thing They will go somewhere where they know There's going to be some kind of a riot That's why they want to march in Skokie, Illinois Which was an all-Jewish, you know, neighborhood Because they knew it was going to create a disturbance

Starting point is 01:30:36 And they used that But so I learned a lot from Matt Cole Bizarre that someone would be smart In the wrong way like that It's bizarre It's bizarre, but you find it in any color, every color you know people you know divide and conquer is how you gain power and the first thing and going back to the fear factor of that like we did the exact same thing every time there was violence when we clash with antifa or something like that we had people out there filming like nism had its own media arm so they're out there filming that and we would put out those clips so immediately especially if there was violence if there was actual clashes and the police weren't keeping people separated those always turned into recruits. That's how these groups would utilize that stuff.

Starting point is 01:31:23 So you have people that were being like, oh, man, sorry, I missed it. I didn't know we'd be fighting with the Reds, you know. Like, I'll be at the next one. And then you'd have applications coming in from new recruits that would see it on the news. So these groups are always manipulating the media. Some of the rallies that I organized were at places like Valley Forge, Yorktown, Virginia, historic places that you could use those elements. And it would guarantee the press or downtown L.A. at the city hall. or marching on D.C., places that would guarantee a lot of press.

Starting point is 01:31:54 And just like Daryl said, it wasn't necessarily to recruit people in those areas. It was to whip up chaos because that would benefit these groups. How do these groups use the media or rather social media and the Internet to radicalize people? Nowadays, it's a double-edged sword, the media, because these groups before, like I was discussed, earlier. You had to like kind of search them out or a recruiter had to find you or something like that. It wasn't easy to find. Now a fourth grader can click on a website and go find these groups. They're easy to find online. And so sometimes they're very overt, but a lot of times there's different censorship things that are in place. So they'll change the cover of the book. So the

Starting point is 01:32:42 propagandish that we had in the group were making stuff look less innocuous, not, you know, using swastikas or things like that so some groups are very prolific at that and they'll use podcasts they'll use videos um do they have a nazi podcast oh yeah i would say like don't get any ideas man they don't get they don't get as many as many listeners as joe rogan but i was i was just saying thinking like what kind of how many people are listening to nazi podcasts that really varies, you know, but it's still a large movement in this country? Yeah, yeah. And how does it grow now?

Starting point is 01:33:24 Is it grow based on like the things Darrell was talking about, like riots and stuff like that, where they'll use that, maybe Black Lives Matter riots from the 2000s or 2020s, rather? Well, one of the things that's causing it to grow also, which I was going to lean up to when I talked with Matt Cole, what I learned in 1982, was that these people, meaning the movement, the white supremacism movement, are fearing. He told me this in 1982. They are fearing the year 2042, all right? And it's not a conspiracy, it's for real, all right?

Starting point is 01:33:59 The U.S. census is taken every decade. I'm 67. When I was, it doesn't matter how old you are, how old he is or whatever, when we all were children, the black population in this country was 12%. Native Americans, 1%. Right? Latino-Hispanic Americans, almost 2%. Asian Americans, Pacific Islander Americans, almost 3%.

Starting point is 01:34:27 Whites were like around 86, 87%. It's back in, I was born in 58. All right. So every decade, this is happening. And this is what Matt Cole was telling me that they were fearing. He used the word fear. He said it has to be stopped. He said, in the year 2042, if this trend can 10 years, this country will be 50-50, meaning 50% white, 50% non-white, all right?

Starting point is 01:34:54 The last census taken in our country was 2020. Guess what? Whites went from like 80-some percent from the time I was a kid and you were a kid. Now, 59%. That was in 2020. It's less than that right now in 2025. So in 2040, it's going to be this. It's predicted between 2045 and 2050, it's going to flip.

Starting point is 01:35:17 And for the first time in the history of the United States, whites will become the minority. And while there are plenty of white people who say, hey, that doesn't bother me, no big deal. It's evolution. What's the big deal? Right? There is a slice of our population, the ones that I deal with, who think it is a big deal, and they're trying to stop it. And that's why when I first started, I've been doing that, like I said, for 45 years. When I first started doing this, there was just the KKK, white power skinheads, and some neo-Nazi groups.

Starting point is 01:35:45 That was basically it, right? Today you got the KKK, the neo-Nazis, the skinheads, the Patriot Front, the Vanguard, the proud boys, the oathkeepers, the National Alliance, on, on and on, a whole slew of groups. And they're all saying, come join us, come join us, we're going to take back our country, right? So people out of fear of their identity being erased as, you know, they're saying, because they're trying to keep the racist pure, because what they tell me is Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America. or white genocide through misdegenation. So these people out of fear of their identity being erased because they truly believe that they are patriots.

Starting point is 01:36:27 And it's their job to save this country. We built this country. We wrote the Constitution. And now people are coming into our country who don't look like us and squeezing us out of our own country. That's the mentality. And as Jeff points out, they're surrounded by an echo chamber that keeps repeating that.

Starting point is 01:36:41 So then it becomes the truth to them, right? So they run and join these groups to take back the country. But when the group does not act fast enough to take back the country, they get antsy and get frustrated. So, you know what? If the Nazis can't do it or the Klan can't do, I'll do it myself. And they walk into a black church in South Carolina, boom, boom, boom, and murder nine black people doing Bible study. Or the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, kill off 11 Jewish people, the Buffalo grocery store in New York, the Sikh Indian Temple in Oakland. Creek, Wisconsin, murders seven Sikh Indians doing religious service.

Starting point is 01:37:18 The Walmart in El Paso, Texas, 23 Mexican people were murdered by white supremacists a few years ago. These people are called lone wolves, and every time one of them gets taken out by law enforcement or gets arrested and their property gets searched, law enforcement always finds a cash of automatic weapons that are being stockpiled for Rahoa or the Bugaloo. because they're looking to have this redo of the Civil War to preserve their lifestyle. And so 2042 is going to be a pivotal year. And we're only, what, 16, 17 years away from that right now.

Starting point is 01:37:57 Wow. So that's why they walked down the street chanting, they will not replace us. That's what that's all about? Yep. Yeah. This is white replacement theory, right? Which is bogus.

Starting point is 01:38:07 Nobody's trying to replace anybody. Just you guys aren't fucking enough It's so simple You're already the majority You need to do your work It is Just not my sister, right? It's just such a disturbing

Starting point is 01:38:28 aspect of society That you would think There's going to come a point in time Where there's enough education Enough understanding and especially with the access to information we have with the Internet, this would all go away. But it doesn't seem like that's helping

Starting point is 01:38:44 because it seems like the more access to information, the more people settle into these echo chambers. That and also a lot of the old guard realized, you know, this is happening. And if we want to preserve our culture, our whatever, we need to pass this on to young people. We need to get more young people involved. and they began recruiting young people to disseminate this information

Starting point is 01:39:12 and, you know, galvanize more of their peers into this ideology and back to, you know, the recruitment of military and law enforcement because they know this is going to happen and they're going to want those people on board to be on that side. And, you know, I mean,

Starting point is 01:39:35 you can probably talk about military and law enforcement inside your organization. I can talk about it in the plan or whatever. Yeah, as far as like the military was concerned, we were actively trying to recruit military. So early on in the organization, it was like 10% maybe of the members. By the time I left, it was about 50%. And how did you do that?

Starting point is 01:39:54 Well, on their applications, you know, we were asking what branch they were in, what rank they achieved because we were looking at all that for potential leadership. So anybody that had military experience, especially in the higher ranks, those people would be naturally looked at for leadership positions in the party because they had those skills. Right, but how do they try to recruit military people?

Starting point is 01:40:16 So using the same tactics as everybody else, but as far as the organization specifically, having that military structure like we discussed earlier, having that structure gave them somebody that was coming out of the military that was retired or something like that, it would provide that structure that they were missing. So a lot of times for people that are involved in this stuff, it's fulfilling a psychological need. It's being part of a mission. It's having that something that's driving them and driving a driving force that's behind their ideology. So finding a place to fit in, having a mission, a sense of purpose, I think it's a lot of things. A lot of times people miss that aspect of it. And I explain it not to excuse it because there is no excuse for it. These are choices that people make.

Starting point is 01:41:02 But if you understand the psychology of it, like why someone's involved in it, that's helpful to help pull them out. And also when someone's coming out of these organizations to have a new mission, have something else. So for a lot of people that might be learning and play guitar or doing an extreme sport or getting involved with the church or just it could be anything. But there has to be something because if they're missing that, that's when they really struggle. That's one thing I've seen a lot of. So what is the protocol? Like, how do you handle, like, say if someone is leaving and they contact you and say, I know you left, I want to leave too, what are the steps you take to make sure that they do find some sort of a new purpose? A lot of times just kind of asking them questions, you know, asking a lot of questions and seeing what they're interested in and finding those things, trying to help them find that sense of purpose and that because that's missing. So I've had a lot of people say, like, when they've left, they're like, I don't have that.

Starting point is 01:42:02 I don't have that. So a lot of times we'll talk through that. Well, what interests you? What do you interest in? And a lot of times we try to keep them kind of steer clear politics. But for some people, it might be okay. But typically that's kind of probably one they should stay away from for a little bit. So politics, because they have this desire to help fix society.

Starting point is 01:42:22 So they think they're going to get involved. I'm not a Nazi anymore. So I'll get involved in fixing it and more. legitimate way. Yep. And one of the problems, Joe, is this. When these people leave the movement, there is a moniker that's tagged on them and a stigma that follows. Okay.

Starting point is 01:42:42 You know, when you see their name in the media, it's never, you know, Jeff Scoop, blah, blah, blah. It's always former neo-Nazi Jeff Scoop. Doesn't say former rock musician. No. I have some wacky ideas, but let's not talk about that. So that stigma kind of follows, you know, and it's hard for them to break, you know, whereby most people, you know, when they screw up or whatever, you know, it's forgiven. Like, say, you know, you and I are friends. I call you and say, hey, Joe, man, you're not going to believe this last week.

Starting point is 01:43:13 And I got thrown in jail for DWI. You know, you'd be like, well, man, you know, you need to quit drinking and driving. You know, why don't you call me? I would have come pick you up. You don't have to drive home, whatever. and you and I would still be friends but if I call you and say hey man I got arrested for murder or for rape

Starting point is 01:43:33 you be like why are you calling me you know you're distancing so even though these people might have been friends with somebody who later became a white supremacist or whatever the stigma of it even now that they're out right you know they still are a little leery and want to stay clear because you're judged by the company

Starting point is 01:43:52 you keep so it's always you know ex-con you know blah blah blah You know, instead of just saying so-and-so is working here. Yeah, I mean, there's very few people that even want to believe that someone's capable of moving. Right, exactly. The tiger strikes and electric. They would always think, like, this guy's got to be fucked up. He was a Nazi. Yeah, and it's crazy because I had a reporter one time, and I won't say who or anything like that.

Starting point is 01:44:15 But he had said, you know, I visit a murderer in prison, and I'm okay with that. But I'm not so sure about, like, your journey. like I mean like he basically what he was saying in so many words was he was more comfortable with the murderer than somebody and this is a this is a reporter you know somebody a journalist and they were more uncomfortable speaking with a former neo-Nazi that's fascinating yeah were they Jewish no no no no definitely liberal yes yes for sure I think the the stigma of it is just so unforgivable you know, which is part of the problem. But then why, if you're not going to forgive that person or that ideology, right, then why do you want to fight it? Why do you want to combat it? Why not just accept it?

Starting point is 01:45:07 Because it's not going to change, or at least you're not going to change your attitude. Right. You have to help. If you want these people to leave and reintegrate into society, you have to have forgiveness. Exactly. I mean, you know, prison is a penal institution, not a reform institution. which is why this country has the highest recidivism rate of any country in the world, right? People, you know, go in there and they don't get reformed,

Starting point is 01:45:32 and they learn from better people than they were at their crime, and they go back out and they do it again, and people don't accept them because they have that stigma that follows them. Well, I can't hire an ex-con, you know, blah, blah, whatever. Right. Where do they go? Right. That's what you said.

Starting point is 01:45:48 An interesting side note on that. You know, we talk about, like, some of the hate that I had, And I was a raging anti-Semite, more than a racist by all, by all points. And the irony of today working with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, I mean, there's just so much irony there. And, like, the Jewish community was the community that I dehumanized and villainized the most. And Joe, they have been the most accepting and welcoming as far as since the change has happened. And that just blew my mind. Because the first time I went to speak at a synagogue, I thought, man, these people are going to want to stone me to death.

Starting point is 01:46:24 You know, like, I, what should I say? How am I going to, you know, how is, what is this going to be like? I'd never been in a synagogue before, and this took place in Skokie, Illinois. And I tell you, after speaking there, I got more hugs and more love and compassion than I'd probably, any other place I could ever remember being. That's really interesting. So did they try to understand, like, why you at one point in time hated Jews? Do they, do they ask you questions? Like, what did you think?

Starting point is 01:46:56 Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, they have something called Teshuvra, which means like forgiveness or repentance. And Tiquinole means to heal the world. So these are things that were counterintuitive and contrary to everything that I thought I knew about the Jews. Now you have to speak in Hebrew, you understand. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:15 But it was really bizarre. So it's like when I speak with kids at schools, you know, I said, you know, you guys really. remember in elementary school when you had opposite day and your shirts backwards and all that kind of stuff I said that was my life like everything that I thought that I knew about the Jews and the movement I was an expert on the Jews the Jewish question you know and here did you have any experience with Jewish people no none no so this was all just based on Nazi ideology huh so you'd know no negative or positive interactions with Jewish people no very towards the end of my time when I was involved, you know, I had a few interactions with Jewish people that I knew

Starting point is 01:47:57 of, but before that, no, absolutely not. Just wouldn't discuss anything with them, wouldn't talk to them, and just felt like they were inherently evil. Swallowed the whole anti-Semitic pill, I guess you could say. I mean, I believed all of it. And they were the people that I dehumanized the most, and yet today they are the people that have been the most open. And, you know, for the longest time, you know, Jews have been blamed for everything. Things, you know, they had nothing to do with. They say, you know, the Jews run the media. They own the media.

Starting point is 01:48:33 You know, they run the banking systems and all that kind of stuff. And so people begin believing in that. And they become, you know, persona non grata. And even though they may not even know any Jewish people. And that's why I say, you know, when. when I feel I can trust some individual who trust me or whatever around my friends, I will invite them over or whatever, and I bring in some Jewish friends of mine and other black friends or white friends

Starting point is 01:49:02 so that they can see something outside the echo chamber. Another former neo-Nazi who's a very good friend of mine was telling me that when he was in... Funny sentence. Former neo-Nazi who's a very good friend of mine. A Freudian slip. No, it's just, it's a funny sentence. Accurate. Exactly.

Starting point is 01:49:21 Yeah. So anyway, he was telling me when he was in the movement, he's from Wisconsin. And, you know, their football team is the Green Bay Packers, and they're just, you know, crazy about their football team. And so he would tell me, you know, that they're not allowed to watch football games because it's interracial, you know, black and white members on the teams playing together. So that's forbidden. And so he'd have to sneak around and watch, turn the volume down, and watch the game down, and watch the gang because he loved the Packers, right?

Starting point is 01:49:51 And when the Packers would score a goal, he'd do it like this. Right. And so then he tells me that, you know, when he got out and other people were, you know, were getting out, turns out they were doing the same thing. You know, watching the game. Oh, that's so crazy. But he has a great story. Tell him about the guys from Cameroon.

Starting point is 01:50:14 Oh, yeah, yeah. So I had met some embassy people from the country of Cameroon in Africa. and they had come out to one of my talks and afterwards, you know, they said, you know, it was really fascinating and America is really far behind on race relations, you know, when we first got here, we didn't realize we were black. And I was like, what are you guys talking about?

Starting point is 01:50:38 I said, we got to talk. I got to understand this. What do you mean you didn't realize you were black? And he's like, well, of course we realize we're black, but you see in the United States, you know, or where we're from in Cameroon, we're Cameroonian. You know, that's who we are. Like, you know, we know we're black, but he goes, in the United States, it's different.

Starting point is 01:50:56 You're black American, white American, you know. Yeah, he says, we're treated differently in the United States, even by other black people. You know, we were treated differently. So he says, now we know we're black. Wow. I took a minute to wrap my mind around that one. Well, it makes sense. They think of themselves as Cameroonian.

Starting point is 01:51:14 As they should. Yeah, as they should. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's what's. crazy when you experience racism from other black people you're like whoa right well now hold on now discrimination i should well when you when you experience it from anybody right but uh understand

Starting point is 01:51:30 something okay so you know we have a unique thing here uh called slavery and and jewish people have a unique thing called the holocaust so if you're a white guy and you're walking down down the street, sidewalk, and some of the white guy is coming up the sidewalk, you

Starting point is 01:51:50 don't know him, just a stranger, you know, you guys are going to pass and not say a thing to either one.

Starting point is 01:51:57 You know, just go on by, right? If it's a black guy, two black guys passing, they don't make sure,

Starting point is 01:52:03 they're going to go, yo man, what's up? They're going to acknowledge one another because they have a shared

Starting point is 01:52:08 experience. They both are descendants of slaves, they both have experienced racism at some point in their life or

Starting point is 01:52:13 whatever. If two Jews pass, who don't know each other, they're going to go Shalom because of that commonality, that experience. So unless you've had that experience, you don't react to it, all right? So when I lived in Africa, on the continent of Africa for 10 years, I lived in Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, and Senegal, and visited many other countries in between because of my dad's job, right? So I can tell you, you know, all black people don't look alike, all black people don't know each other, all right?

Starting point is 01:52:48 That's a funny thing to say, too. Yeah, but you know what? A lot of white people think that. They do. A lot? Yeah, especially older, older ones. Oh, okay. Now, at one time, in a city, all black people probably did know each other, okay, because

Starting point is 01:53:04 they had to go to the same school, and there was only one black school in the town, right? They couldn't go different white schools. Okay, so, yeah, you know, they could only shop in a certain store. They couldn't shop in every store, a restaurant. So, yeah, they would run into each other more often. But today, no, but the stigma is still there, the sentiment, especially with older people. So anyway, if I'm walking down the street, and I've had this happen, and some black guy from Africa is coming up the street, I go, hey, man, what's up? You know, I don't know the guy.

Starting point is 01:53:34 He looks at me kind of strange. Like, I don't know you. Why are you talking to me? Because he doesn't have that experience. Right. Right. So we're not monolithic. Right. Yeah. Well, this is the only way these movements like the neo-Nazis work is if you don't know a lot of people from all over the world and realize, we're all just people.

Starting point is 01:53:58 Yep. This is, you know, and it is very fear-based, right? Yeah. Because, I mean, think about it. You're clinging to the lowest common denominator. You all have a certain amount of melanin in your skin and you're all from a certain part of the world. That's it. And it's really not a very good commonality. It's terrible.

Starting point is 01:54:16 It's terrible. Especially when you think about the differences in personalities and tastes and just how people behave. And it's not a good indicator at all. It's the dumbest. It really is. But now it's no bearing on your character, no bearing on your intellect, no bearing on any of the things that we find fascinating and attractive about people. It's just the color of your skin, which is the dumbest fucking thing on earth. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:54:40 And, you know, and we all may engage in. it's somewhat. Like, for example, if I like Chinese food, and if I go to a Chinese restaurant, I don't want to see a bunch of white college kids or black college kids, for that matter, in the kitchen cooking it for me. Right. You know, I want the authentic real deal. Right. You know, so am I being prejudiced? No. That's not prejudice. That's, you want to experience the culture. The culture. Yeah. Like, if I go to an Italian restaurant, I'm a, I'm assuming there's going to be a bunch of old-school Italian people back there cooking. You know, I want, I want heavy accents, you know?

Starting point is 01:55:23 I want the smell of garlic in the air, you know what I'm saying? Do you know where Italians came from? Originally? Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming Italy? Well, that's where they live. I mean, what are you trying to say? Well, I'll tell you.

Starting point is 01:55:36 Okay. Okay, so Italians came from Africa. They came from the Moors. Oh, yes. Well, Sicily in particular. That's actually where my family's from. Okay, well, there you go, okay. And they're darker in Sicily than in Rome and Venice and wherever else.

Starting point is 01:55:50 Right, the further you move from the equator, the darker the skin. Right. Okay, yeah, the moors came, you know, into there. We all evolved from Africa at some point in time, way back when. Right. But, you know, a lot of people don't realize that. And they really need to check their DNA and check their history rather than just take it from where they started, where they were born. You know, that's why I think it's so important.

Starting point is 01:56:13 to not ban books and rewrite history of course yeah of course you know there is some indication that human beings might have come out of Asia as well in fact one of the oldest known human skeletons that they found which predates Lucy no it's another one that Lucy is out of Ethiopia right but Lucy wasn't a homo sapien they found something that is a homo sapian that's 500,000 years older than when they thought homo sapiens existed. This is very recent. And so it was likely that this was taking place

Starting point is 01:56:52 in multiple areas of the world, just like there's different animals in multiple places of the world. There's different primates in multiple places of the world. And there's a bunch of different kinds of human being, of course, right? There's Denisovans, which have just recently discovered, and then there was the Hobbit people

Starting point is 01:57:08 in the island of Flores. Like, there's a lot of... When it comes to the evolutionary history of human beings, very odd. But when you talk about like the cultural history of human beings, that's when things get really crazy because it was just a lot of people like traveling all over the place and just settling into the climate. And the reason why white people are white is just because there is no sun. It's that simple. And they had to develop essentially like a giant solar panel to suck up

Starting point is 01:57:38 vitamin D because they weren't getting any vitamin D from the sun. It's really that simple. And And that's when it gets real weird. Which has nothing to do with their intelligence or lack thereof. Zero, zero. You know, it's all environmental. And over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, people change their appearance. And, you know, when you tell people that, they're like, wait, what? We all came from the same source.

Starting point is 01:58:03 It destroys. That's why we could all have babies, you know? Like, other animals that are very different, like there's certain fish that can have babies with other fish but those those fish become infertile you know and then like the same with like donkeys like donkeys they don't they can't have babies

Starting point is 01:58:22 you know like it's a or mules rather can't have babies because it's a cross between a donkey and a horse and you can do it but then it can't make babies or a liger can't make babies right right now people can make babies with people obviously because we're the same

Starting point is 01:58:38 fucking thing right any any any uh culture of people Yes, yes. Any culture of people can have babies with other cultures of people because we all come from the same source. Kind of wipes out the whole racism argument. It's the stupidest fucking thing ever because it's adaptive to environment. Your DNA, my DNA, his DNA are 99.9% the same. Yep. Yeah. And that should be taught in elementary school. Yes. Don't wait to teach it in college when people's minds are already solidified.

Starting point is 01:59:05 Yes. Yes. Yes. I think that thing too, that exposure that you had to that Nazi coming to visit you, even though it's negative. exposure it's probably good to see you know like when I was a kid I was in high school and I was 14 Barney Frank who oh yeah I remember him yeah he I wasn't openly gay then but he was like one of the first openly gay members of Congress he lived near me he lived near me as well I lived in Massachusetts at the time and he was from Massachusetts or was representative of Massachusetts when he lived in DC as a congressman okay so this was before that I guess then so he was debating a member of what at the time was the, I believe it was the moral majority.

Starting point is 01:59:46 And it was this really goofy guy who came out and he had like an American flag on his lapel. And I remember I was 14. And, you know, when you're 14 and you see someone who's got this very, like he was very anti-gay marriage, very anti, a lot of things. But he was a clumsy, it wasn't very eloquent, not a very compelling speaker. And then Barney Frank went up, you know, so they both spoke. this guy spoke, and then Barney Frank, and Barney Frank was so much smoother, so much more articulate. It was like, and for all the kids that I was in school with who left, they're like, that guy made more sense. Like, this is a good thing to say.

Starting point is 02:00:26 It's good to see someone with a very narrow-minded, bigoted perspective, and then someone who is more intelligent, more, has a much better vocabulary, smoother in their ability to disseminate information and, to dissect the bad arguments of the other person. So we all walked out of there with like, oh, okay. And then, you know, I remember talking about it with my friends like, yeah, that guy's a fucking moron. But first guy. And but nowadays, instead of that, you would only get one. You would only get the one person talking.

Starting point is 02:01:01 But the one person talking without the other person talking is not as good. And this idea of protecting kids from bad ideas because they don't want these kids to be indoctrinated by bad ideas. It doesn't work with human beings. The way to get rid of bad ideas is to confront them with better ideas. Exactly. And the fear of having these kind of debates in schools is really dangerous. It's dangerous for discourse. It's dangerous for the development of the ability to have arguments and ideas and to be able to debate. You have to see it done. You have to see bad thinking, good thinking. Ah, I get it. I get it. This guy's, he's. He's. He's, he's. He's, he's, He's more clever, he's thinking better, he's got more information, this makes sense.

Starting point is 02:01:47 And if you don't allow people to make those distinctions on their own, if you just baby them and treat them like you can't expose them to these negative ideas, you miss out on the possibility of accepting nuance and an understanding of how a less sophisticated, less educated person can fall into these traps of these stupid ideologies. You just nailed it right on, you know, right on the head, man, allowing them to see the difference. Yes. Okay? Because, you know, people, how did you change those people, Darrell?

Starting point is 02:02:24 No, I didn't change them. They changed themselves because we all know one's perception is one's reality. Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality. Right. You cannot change their reality. And if you try, you're going to get resistance. Right.

Starting point is 02:02:42 Because they only know what they know, right? If you keep trying, it's going to escalate. You're going to get loud and keep on trying. It's going to explode. You go it's going to be rolling around on the ground, hitting each other or whatever, right? Because all fights start with yelling and screaming. Right. So rather than try to attack somebody's reality and try to set their reality straight, don't do that.

Starting point is 02:03:04 You'll fail. What you do is you offer them a better perception. or perceptions. Yes. And if they resonate with one of your perceptions, like showing them, this guy speaks very eloquently, that guy speaks like a, like a moron. Right. Just let them see it.

Starting point is 02:03:19 Yeah. Okay. That perception then resonates with them, and they change their own reality. Yeah. So don't focus on how you're going to change somebody's reality. Focus on what kind of perceptions can I offer that person that might resonate. Right. Right.

Starting point is 02:03:33 And just by example, but by who you are, because when people see someone, and it resonates with them and see someone speak and you can sense how they think of things you can see the thought process and you go well who do I admire more I admire this guy he's like he's he's thinking like this is an enlightened person this is a person who's thinking in a way that I want to be able to think like that especially as a young kid you know you don't want to be a moron when you see someone you think is a moron you're like okay I'm glad I saw that guy because that guy looks like a fucking idiot now this guy oh that guy that guy makes more sense. You know? When Jeff and I were in that Chris was grill and he felt he was getting along too well with the enemy being me and he started beating

Starting point is 02:04:21 his fists on the table and that's shown in the documentary. He was trying to get a rise out of me because I wasn't behaving the way he was expecting me to behave. Right. And so when he went into Nazi mode I remained the same way. Right. And that freaked him out.

Starting point is 02:04:37 Oh yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. What do it feel like to you? Well, normally when you escalate, and we call this relational dialogue, and we do talks about this as well. Oh, so it's a strategy? It's a strategy. Wow. So when I tried to escalate, normally almost 99.9% of the time, when you escalate, the other person escalates,

Starting point is 02:04:59 Daryl didn't escalate. So I'm doing that, and he just goes, hmm. And then just continues the conversation like I never even raised my voice. So I'm like, you know, if you start yelling at somebody, they start yelling back. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I'm blown away by this. I'm like, why is this guy not reacting? What's going on here? And so now I'm really dialed in because I'm trying to figure him out. And that's when it, and it was soon after that that you explained the story about how the Cub Scouts and how racism affected him growing up. And then all of a sudden, I'm thinking about what if somebody would have done that to one of my kids. Right. And I saw Daryl's humanity in that moment. So that's how he cracked that window open.

Starting point is 02:05:41 Jeff just made a very point that I see a lot of times, okay? Because when things escalate, okay, when you come in to meet your adversary, you know, you know this person has a different viewpoint than you do. And you're not going to let them try to change your viewpoint. You're going to be staled into what you believe, right? So your ears are going to be blocking out anything that does not agree with your philosophy. Right. Right.

Starting point is 02:06:07 So in order to, and if you start escalating stuff, that block out becomes even greater, right? So you want that person's wall to come down and by not reacting, that person becomes curious. He's like, where's this guy coming? What's up with him? You know, he's not reacting the way most black people would react when I say whatever. So as the wall comes down, the curious. curiosity on his end rises. And so now his ears are unblocked.

Starting point is 02:06:41 And he's ready to hear what I have to say. But if I'm escalating and telling him my story while I'm escalating about getting thrown rocks, he would probably say, oh, well, it wasn't me that did it, you know, so what's the deal? Well, that's almost all conversations you have with people when you disagree. If you elevate your language and start yelling and they start yelling, nobody figures out anything. Right. Nobody's ever won an argument. It's just a lot of fuck you.

Starting point is 02:07:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of fucking going on. It's like you, you don't get taught that in school. That's unfortunate as well. You don't get taught, like, how to control your emotions. And too many people, like, when people say to someone, hey, shut the fuck up, like, you think that person's going to listen? Like, most of the time, no. like if you're arguing about something and you do it like it's almost always a bad idea you know it just becomes a thing that people say you know like someone says fuck you to somebody and then they're it's it's not like the person goes fuck me oh geez fuck me no they go fuck you back fuck you and then then nothing gets done you know and this this is when you're having especially it's something so heavily charged like a racial discussion like it's as a human being you

Starting point is 02:08:02 it's so important to think of how the other person is viewing your words. Like how, what are they accepting? What do they see in you? And if you turn yourself into an enemy and turn them into an enemy, nothing is done. So, you know, the cliche, misery loves company. Yeah. Negativity does promote negativity, right? Yes.

Starting point is 02:08:23 Positivity promotes positivity. So quick example, you know, you're driving down the highway, you know, speed limits 55 miles an hour. You're doing 75 miles an hour, right? And you're getting ready to go over this hill and the oncoming traffic. You know, some guy comes over the hill before you crest it. And the person is flashing the lights. You don't know who's in that car, but they're flashing the lights. So that means usually there's a cop on the other side working radar.

Starting point is 02:08:50 Or it could be construction or an accident. Something you need to slow down. Right. So you hit your brakes before you go over the hill. And as soon as you crest the hill, oh, there's a cop with the radar gun. man, you know, you're going to have a $150 ticket, right, ruin your day. Right. And that stranger, total stranger, who you don't know what color he was, what religion he is,

Starting point is 02:09:12 who he voted for, who his daddy was, whatever. That person saved you from getting that ticket, right? So as you slowly cruise by the cop, he doesn't pull you over or whatever, you know, you're going to start flashing your lights at the oncoming traffic to save them. Right. But let's say, you know, you're coming up the hill and people are coming over the hill and nobody's flashing license. You go over that hill. Right. There he is.

Starting point is 02:09:39 Pulling you over, you know, license registration. Remaining your car. Be within a moment. Comes back, gives you that $150 ticket until you have a nice day. You're, you know, you're ruined. You lost $150. Your insurance goes up because you've got points on your license now. You know, all kinds of crap.

Starting point is 02:10:00 Your day is ruined. So now as you continue down the street, you don't flash your lights either. That's their problem. So, you know, misery loves company. Negativity promotes negativity. Yeah. A random act of kindness from a stranger, all right? Well, you know, the guy could have been having a bad day, and you flash your lights, and you saved him $150.

Starting point is 02:10:20 Now he's having a better day. He's going to flash his lights. That's a good analogy. Yeah. And more humans need to not worry about something. skin color or who's in the car or who they voted for, just do acts of kindness. Stop dehumanizing people. You know, the guy in the car is just as human as you are.

Starting point is 02:10:40 And you don't even know who he voted for it, but he flashes lights of you and saved you some money. Yeah. Are you hopeful with all the work that you've done and all the people that you've removed from the Nazi party and the Ku Klux Klan and seeing how your message resonates with people? and like I know every time I have you on I get all these messages from people go wow that guy's amazing like what an incredible journey

Starting point is 02:11:04 and it's like I know it resonates with a lot of people but there's still so much fucking hatred in the world do you feel hopeful do you think things are moving in a generally good direction? I do Joe I do and I'll tell you what I think right now we are in the best time it may seem like things are very divisive right now

Starting point is 02:11:27 And they are, okay, politically, racially, whatever else. A lot of, you know, wars going on, religious wars and racism, anti-Semitism, a rise in that, and all kinds of stuff. But yes, we are in the best time right now because people, they don't want to be in this time. You know, I don't know if I can have kids and raise them in this environment, you know, that kind of thing. No, listen, we're in the best time because people are of the mindset. Well, racism is over. You know, we had a black president. There is no more racism.

Starting point is 02:12:00 No, there's still plenty of racism, all right? Before you could turn a blind eye to it, if I don't see it, I don't hear it, then it doesn't exist. But now every time you turn your head, it's there, it's there, it's there. So you can't escape it. Now is the best time to address it, right, when it's in your face. You go on vacation. You know, you're going to drive your car to three states away. and you get 10 miles down the road

Starting point is 02:12:27 and your car's making some weird noise well you don't want to get out of state and have your car break down so you turn around and go back to your mechanic say hey man you know hop in right around the block with me figure out this noise he gets in rides around with you the noise stopped he tells you well I don't hear it

Starting point is 02:12:43 I can't fix what I don't hear right but if he hears it oh yeah you know that's one of your spark blows loose or something or whatever today we cannot turn a blind eye it's everywhere so now it's the best time to fix it, address it.

Starting point is 02:12:57 Especially because of social media. Yeah, absolutely. And I tell people, you know, people say, well, you know, Jeff or Daryl or whoever, you know, you guys are on the front line. You know, I mean, I want to help, but I don't know that I could sit down and talk to somebody who hates me. You know, I'd probably go off on them or I'd be afraid or, you know, whatever, they don't want to be on the front line. Right. That's fine. Don't be on the front line.

Starting point is 02:13:23 You can be on the back line. You can be on the sideline. You can be online, all right? Pick a line that you feel comfortable on and get on it. And no one line is any more important than any other line. And what I mean by that is this. You can probably tell me your favorite movie. You can probably tell me how many Oscars it won.

Starting point is 02:13:42 You can tell me who the lead actress and lead actor were. All right. But those are people on the front line, the lead actress and actor. You know who they are. Right? But do you know who was the guy or guys operating the camera? Probably not. You don't know their names. Even though they're listed at the end of the movie because the credits run on for 10 minutes, right? Those are the people working on the back line. The person hanging in the lights, you know, his name? No. How about the makeup artists? No. The person, you know, who got the wardrobe together. Those are people working on the sideline. Who put the trailer on the TV, you know, the commercial to promote the movie or on the internet? Those are people working. online to promote that movie. Every one of those lines was important to that movie getting that many Oscars and becoming

Starting point is 02:14:26 your favorite movie. So no one line is any more important than any other line. And so I tell people, look, you don't have to be on the front line. Pick where you feel comfortable and let's all work together for the common goal. So if someone's listening to this and say,

Starting point is 02:14:42 okay, what Darrell's saying really resonates with me, how do I get started? How do I contribute? What would you suggest? Email Jeff Scoop at Beyond Barriers. Email Darrell Davis at Darrell Davis.com or I co-founded an organization called the Pro Human Foundation. All right.

Starting point is 02:15:00 And, you know, you mentioned anti-racist. You can tell me people always anti-this, anti-that, right? You know, I hear so much of that. I say, you know what? People keep talking about what they're against. Why don't we talk about what we're for? That's more positive. I am not anti-racist.

Starting point is 02:15:17 All right. Now, what does that mean? People say, you're not anti-racist? What's that mean? If you use it in terms of a noun, the racist being a noun, I'm not anti-the-person. I'm anti-the-person's ideology. I'm not anti-racist. I'm anti-racism.

Starting point is 02:15:37 I'm anti-the-ism. I am pro-human, is what I am. So I want to talk about what I'm for. It's all like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. So contact the pro-human foundation. contact beyond barriers and parents for peace which I'm part of as well

Starting point is 02:15:53 and we'll talk about how you can get involved in being pro and dispel don't be against the person be against the message if you want to disagree with something I think that's a beautiful way to end this

Starting point is 02:16:06 thank you thank you for everything you do I mean you're a really extraordinary person and the line you're on is the on line so thank you my pleasure my pleasure and Jeff thank you for you know first of all just spreading this message and having the courage to accept these bad

Starting point is 02:16:25 decisions that you've made and how you got trapped and just to let people know how a person like yourself who does seem like such a nice and intelligent guy could get sucked into such an awful ideology and I think that that's going to help a lot of people I really do thanks so much for having us it's been an incredible honor to be here my pleasure all right so your book american Nazis, available now, and Daryl, your book, Clan Whisperer, also available. I use one of your quotes there. Thank you very much. Did you? Oh, did you? Oh, beautiful. Did you do the audio for this? Do you do an audio version of it? Like, Jeff, it's a work in progress. Okay. All right.

Starting point is 02:17:00 Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you, appreciate it. Bye, everybody. Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

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