The Joe Rogan Experience - #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

Episode Date: January 16, 2026

Matt Damon and Ben Affleck are Academy Award-winning actors, writers, producers, and creative partners who have collaborated on over a dozen films. Their latest film, “The Rip,” premieres January 16 on Netflix.https://www.netflix.com/title/81915745 Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visible. Live in the know. Join today at https://www.visible.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe Rogan podcast, checking out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. That's wild. I went in, because I came in from... I think I was living at the time, and I went in, and I'm sitting in the waiting room, and it was like on a Sunday, because I was like, I'm only in town for you, and Stan was like, I'll come into the office.

I'm like, thank you so much. I had to have some filling or something, whatever I needed. It's kind of an emergency. So I'm sitting in the thing, and, uh, and I'm not getting called in, but the ladies just, no, no, there's not even a receptionist. And Stan comes out with a mask going to, no, the first thing I hear is, pig fucker, fucking, fucking pig fucker, and I'm like, what is happening in there?

It's in the other room. And Stan comes in his max on, he goes, he goes, sorry, he goes, I'll be with you soon. He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And he goes back, and I hear, listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like 15 minutes. I'm like, this is amazing. And then Stan goes, okay, come on back. And Hunter's kind of getting out. And he goes, oh, you're sitting down with this guy?

He's a fucking assassin. And then he goes, and he's got this jug of clear fluid. And he's like, you're going to need a sip of this. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshine. I'm like, this is fucking amazing. I'm like, I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip. And it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday? Yeah.

He was half way through the jug Pure like catch fire Where was this? In Beverly Hill Yeah Yeah Brentwood Yeah Brentwood

Yeah Oh my God That's amazing It really was amazing It was It was and I had probably A total of seven minutes You know

With him And it was like I could not have been A better seven minutes That's incredible I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there Because I know he used to go there

Yeah And he could like Feel him in the building You know There's all the pictures in the walls, this cool little place. I mean, those books, fucking hell of the angels and, you know, Fear and Loathing,

it's some of the best writing. I just fucking, like, he really had his own voice, rum diary, spectacular, you know, it was like really descriptive and punchy and fucking interesting and fucked up. And he also just lived that life. It was like, fear and loathing changed my life.

Like, reading that book was like, what the fuck? Like, what is this guy doing? This grown men out there, balding, grown men with spectacles He's fucking think there's lizards in the fucking lounge. Like, he's got to listen in. He's got a day trip bag filled with acid.

Like, what the fuck are you doing that? And it's great shit. It's like you're fucking, you feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know? Yeah. No, it's interesting to watch the evolution of his writing, too. You know, like, I read Hell's Angels and it's like very different, you know. That's early when he's kind of restrained and it was quite like, for that, I think it was edgy sort of for the time. Yeah, like, oh, you're going to get beaten, Shane whipped and stomped by the angels, and that was really edgy.

And by the time they got to what was Fear of Loathing, 72 or something like that, he was just out there. He found his voice. He was supposed to be covering a race for like Sports Illustrated. That's a fear and loathing about I read a book about I fucking lost my mind. Great. It's great, Hunter. We'll take it. Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys.

I met you before. but very nice to meet you. It's a pleasure, man. Thank you very much. I love the fucking movie. The rip is great. It's really good. It's so original and it's so different.

You know, it's like I love those kind of movies, but it's not like anyone that I've ever seen before. Really solid movies. Thanks, dude. It was awesome. So much better than you're hating it and us. The interviews where they're like, so I saw the movie. Anyway, how do you guys been?

We've had a lot of those, the press junkets where they come in and the first thing that you know the movie sucks if they don't ask you. you anything about the movie. They come in, they go, so how you been? You know, and you're like, oh, shit, this is going to be bad. Is it weird? Like, the transformation of the film industry seems to like a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now. Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because where most people have gone to watch them.

Yeah. Like, it used to be the only place you'd go see movies in the 40s. Like, every American went to the movie every week, basically. But it was because it was that or watched the cows walk by, you know? That was the only... And then TV comes around and it's little and you've seen these little serials. But, you know, what happened was now, this is why it's totally changed the whole thing because you got 300 million people, 310, whatever is, watching, you know, Netflix.

And it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies. There's also YouTube. There's also TikTok. There's also my kids, like, it's hard to get them excited about a movie. Yeah. Because that's what we had. I mean, yeah, that was our teen years were just, every weekend we're at the movies. Yeah.

There's just no question about it. you were going to go and usually not get into one because there were too many people and then you just see what else is playing and go to that. Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already and then COVID came around

and everyone was locked down and no one was going to the movie theater and then it just set it. I had this like drama that was coming out like right when COVID hit. I'd be a like movie, performance movies, an alcoholic guy who's kid. Kid guy's kid dies and becomes an alcoholic.

It's a dark movie, but I loved it. And I could tell like, we're fucked. No one's going to go to see the theater, see this movie. And it wasn't even that streaming really blew up, you know, of course, during COVID. So, you know, look, they rushed it under streaming. People actually saw it. I was like, all things being equal, I'd like people to see it, you know.

And it's not like my dad had an 11-inch black and white TV. And that's what was TV viewing. That's like $200. You got a fucking 65-inch flat screen, like, and good sound. So, of course, people are willing to. And then streamers also started making great shows. You have adolescents. I don't know if you saw it.

I think that's one of the best things ever done. I haven't seen it. It's unbelievable. What is it? Oh my God. It's a it's I don't want to spoil too much of it. It's only four episodes. They're all one shot.

They're all one shot. Each episode is one entire shot. Whoa. So the cast they took a, I think, I talked to the director about it. The cast took, I think, a week to rehearse each one and then a week to shoot it. And so, so they do it twice a day is the full hour they would choreograph the entire thing. Yeah, it's really. And then the acting is great.

But that's, I mean, just dismiss that even, you could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case, but the performances and the writing and what it's about, it's as good as anything you'll see. It's phenomenal. What is it on? Netflix. Netflix, yeah. You have, like, it's not even an anomaly. There's baby Rangers, those fucking succession.

There's game of Thrones. Ozarks. You know, it's just like, okay, well, they're doing great shit out there. It's not like the sort of implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good. Right. It's interesting. It's a serial. When we started, it was.

There was a different, I mean, like George Clooney, for instance, like there was a big thing. You know, he very famously, you know, became this superstar on ER. That show, 40 million people a week were watching that show. It was the biggest thing, right? Because there were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one. And George never renegotiated his contract. He wanted to work in movies, and it was like, you can't go from TV to movies. It's a very, very few people can do it.

And he really strategically and kind of patiently, like, he joked that. that on the last episode he was on, Anthony Edwards, you know, his co-star was making a million bucks for the episode, and he was making, you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal was. Like, he could have renegotiated, but he would have had to give more years. The point was that's how bad he wanted to get off TV. Right. Yeah. That's how bad he wanted to get off the biggest TV show in the world because there was such a big kind of level change between features and TV. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

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You know, there was all these rules. You can't say this. Can't do that. I can't swear. Not a kind of violence and all the things people want to see in movies, you know. And also it wasn't as interesting. And then now that's a tethered to these schedules and all the stuff. Or as you get this shit like you don't have a schedule.

And you can take a bunch of risks. And that start happening. And then it was kind of like, well, this is just as good, if not better than what's in the movies. Well, then movies started to move towards more IP. Right. Because it was hard to get people to come to the movies. Everyone got scared and thought, well, you have to be a sequel or a superhero movie. And so an interesting little movie, kind of in the 90s when we kind of came onto the scene, you know, there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made.

There was, you know, it was a really great time to be making movies. People were, they were making daring movies. And then everyone just got way more conservative because it's huge. the business is so different theatrically in streaming because to put out a movie theatrically, you have to put so much more money behind it to publicize it. You're trying to get

everybody... You're basically spending about what the budget was to make it to advertise it. And you get 50% of the theatrical. Yeah, because you split it with the movie house, right? Through the exhibit. So a $25 million movie to break even, you've got to make $100 million and you've got to get everybody to not only know about the movie, but to show up like that Friday night, like that specific

time, you know, for that specific movie. And to cut through all the noise that people are contending with. And it just becomes about risk. And nobody wants to take the risk so they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment. We're going to lose our fucking money. And the streamers have stepped into that. And like, you know, you have to have a star. You could try something more interesting or didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever it was.

And also, I think it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like, it's, first of all, it's expensive. Right. You take your old family. It's $100. You're on a streaming service, $20 a month. You can watch all you want. So you can't be cavalier about, like, you're just going to price it however the fuck you want

and expect everyone to, like, be indifferent to that. And then, you know, also, you know, the idea of, like, for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff. I make that decision. Like, do I want to see The Odyssey on a big screen fucking deaf? I went to a theater to just watch the trailer for that movie. And, you know, did I, at one battle after another, I wanted to go see in the theater.

But there's movies of people that I really like and respect where, yeah, and I got a good system and shit. But I'm like, look, I'll watch it. And I might get tired. or I want to pause it and take a piss or the kids, you know, whatever it is. That's conducive to my lifestyle, you know, and so I even see few. I think most people are, yeah. But there is the experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people.

100%. You see an awesome movie with a bunch of other people. It's like a shared experience. 100%. I always like an attention. Way more attention. Like when I went to see one battle on IMAX, like, you know, that feeling, there's nothing like that feeling. I took, you know, two of my kids and two of my nephews and my wife and we all went.

And it was just, it was like, and you're in the. with, you know, a bunch of strangers, the people in your community, and you're having this experience together, I always say it's more like going to church. Like you show up at an appointed time. You know what I mean? It doesn't wait for you.

You know, versus the experience of watching at home, I think, you know, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to,

or that you're able to give to it. And that has a big effect. And it also ends up having an effect or is starting to have an effect on how you make movies. Like, for instance, Netflix, you know, standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, they kind of ramp up in the big one with all the explosions. And you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes?

get some but you know we want people to stay yeah tuned in and can and you know it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're watching you know what I mean and so then it's gonna really start to infringe on creatively how we're telling the story but then you look at our lessons it didn't do any it didn't do any of that it's fucking great you know what I mean so I think it's as dark or two it's tragic and intense it's like guy who finds out these kids accused of murder and a It's like, you know, and there's long shots in the back of their head. They get in the car.

Nobody says anything. I think there are those, look, these ideas. I wish that where that feels more like the exception. It's so masterfully made that it feels a little more like the exception. I hope it's not. My feeling is just that it demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that shit to get people. You know what I mean? Like, and I think, you know, yes.

You know, like, look, hey, the town had the actions thing in the beginning of the first five minutes. You know what I mean? Like, it's a common trick that you would go, like. Like, let me grab them and get them invested. And it's like the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff. And now we're going to flash back to the beginning and tell you how they got there. It's, you know, I always feel like complaining about it makes me feel like one of these guys was like, when I was a boy, like, you always want to freeze the culture at the time when you, I don't know, felt more like, you know, we used to have these phones. The fuck all these phones.

And everybody's looking at their phone. I get it. Yes, it's true. Also, it's like supplying them. People want to look at their phone. They can look at TikTok. They want, you know, they're going to do that. I think what you can do is make shit the best you can.

Make it really good. And, you know, people can still go to the movie. It's not like, I think we have this idea that's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is going to destroy everything. Instead of like, what history suggests is that there's like marginal encroachments, things shift. Yep, as television came along, there was less theater going. And that's still going to happen. And people are still going to go to the movies because of what you said.

Like, it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm going to go see the Odyssey. I guarantee you. the theater, you know, no matter what. Viewer of them, and you could argue that's because I have more choice or whatever it is, it's hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick, right? If people want to watch a bunch of stuff at home because they invested in TVs and cost us money,

they will. So, okay. But the upside of that is, like, I can try to do something. Hopefully that's like, that actually doesn't need to, you know, have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family. That's a little more experimental or risk-taking or whatever in that way. Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's no way

you're going to change people's viewing habits now. No. I mean, what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones is got to be pretty high, which is insane. Yeah.

Even watching a laptop for me is kind of like kind of sucks. Yeah, it sucks. That's a joke that I like to make with every director I work with. Like when they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something, I go, you know, it's not going to look as good on the phone.

When everyone gets angry when you say that. of their fucking sales. No, that's going to look great. This fucking bigs. But keep fucking around and lighting that. It is weird, though, the concern for the algorithm, like making sure that people watch.

Like, look, we've got data that shows within the first five minutes. When this happens, they tune out. So, like, my buddy, Tony Hinchcliffe, he's got Kill Tony. And now it's on Netflix. And so they're giving them notes now. And they can give him, like. But they're not telling him what to do, but they're saying, like, this is when people are tuning out.

And so just so you have that data, now decide how you want to edit things. It's like, oh, I don't know. Yeah, which is. It is because the, it's like the bar for walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel. Right. Right. And oftentimes, you know, directors will want to make a movie that is challenging and upsetting. And I remember Terry Kinney, my friend, great actor, and he told me about the experience of seeing taxi driver in New York for the first time.

right, in 76 or whenever came out, and he said, what I remember, he's not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up, I got up out of my seat, and I went, but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested, but I was so, he goes, I was standing at the back by the door watching the movie, and he goes,

and there were two other people standing next to me who were doing the same thing. Just because they were disturbed? Because the movie was disturbing them so much. Wow. But it was just not a bad thing, right? So had that been on Netflix or Amazon, You know, if somebody's, oh, I'm disturbed and they turn and they change the channel.

Yeah. Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make taxi driver. Right. That's true. Like, the investment of going to a place is much greater. Yeah, one of the values of that is that you could, you look at movies from the 70s days. The first act is 25, 30 minutes. Right.

You know, the verdict for instance, it's a great movie. It takes a long time to get going. Look at the deer hunter. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's. And you're right. Like what you're saying, the threshold for walkout is real like any scene like, I want to watch naked alone.

Whatever. You know, you flip the fucking. So you are battling that. And, you know. I watched Le Mans the other night, Steve McQueen. And there's no one talks for like five minutes. There's no talking. It's just a bunch of stuff getting done.

Just a bunch of people doing things. And it's like, wow, you could make a different. You could let it air out back then. Yeah. It was, they had a different respect for what it was. Like, you were telling a story and you're going to let it air out. Well, they also knew where their audience was. They were in a theater.

Part of it was they wanted to come there. I mean, the great story I like is the first time they debuted a movie, guys with a projector in a room full of people. It was a movie of a train pulling into the station. So they put the reel up and they did the demonstrate and they showed the people and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector. They never fucking seen anything like that. You know, it's like the technology is upstage. But like you come for an event. Come for a thing.

We're all going to be here. That's part of it. It's, I don't know. There's competing argument. So you can think, well, what do you get to do? And some people just go ahead and fuck it. Like, Jim Cameron's the avatar. I'm going to make my three-hour movie.

And people are going to come. And great, you know what I mean? And people say, oh, well, you can't have a three-hour movie. And he's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron. And I actually get the number one and two. And, you know, movies, I think I got this. He goes ahead and does it. You know, this history is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom

and we're like, yeah, but we're going to do something different. And as it turns out, like, that's actually what people want to. It's not for you just repeat the other shit that's been done before. that worked before. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Have you heard of Visible? It's the one-line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included all on Verizon's 5G network.

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Switch now at visible.com. Terms apply, limited time offer, subject to change. See visible.com for planned features and network management details. One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

Hopefully it's successful. I think it's going to be a shit if it doesn't. It's a fucking great movie, man. It's a fun movie. But it's good, but it's not like, you know, fucking we're saints or philanthropists. Like it's completely self-serving, in my opinion. Because in order to do the job well, everybody who's working on and has to be really invested and give a shit about the result, not their paycheck only.

And sometimes you're with a crew that just happened to be great. anyway, even though they don't really have to care about it, and they do. And what we saw was like, that makes your movie better. And then there's just the thing of like the business is changing. You see these strikes and works options, all these fucking questions. In order for this, I think, to survive and to be, you know, a good middle class fucking artist, you know, artisanal craftsman job, we've got 1,200 people that, you know, need to have reliable jobs. And part of the negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, you.

but we're all going to get fucked. Like we have no participation. Like, you used to working on movies and it happens to actors too, where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort. Somebody else walked away with all the success. And, you know, my theory was with Matt was we were like, how about where, let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right?

If this thing actually blows up and does really well, you should benefit from that. People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of participation back in the haven't come true. This is like everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything. This is just an exercise and actually proving that it's not bullshit. That if there's success, you'll get some extra. A little success, a little extra. A little more, a little more.

But also, like you said, because it's fair. You know, and in success, the people who made the movie should, you know, should participate in that. And also with this one, which was important to us, they delineate above the line and below the line, right? Like above the line being like us and director and the producer. and the producers. And below the line being kind of the more blue-collar side of our industry. It's like painters, grainsman, camera, be able to. Everybody else would drive her.

And so we just want to, we believe, like, when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better, right? It's not, it's, like, they've, this has kind of been mispriced the whole time. Like, the economics have been wrong. Like, when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand on it. Because you see a great director that people rely on. or an actor that's considered bank, but they're all going, okay, I need all my people with me.

Yeah, every great director I've worked with, and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular crew members that I ride or die with these people. Because, I mean, and you said it to me when we were starting the company, you were like, you know, those department heads, you know,

who are each handling like, you know, cinema top, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric, like all these, those people are ultimately the people who make the movie good. Like they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is. And I imagine once you get a good flow with a great crew,

like you got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need to bring in new band members. Let's let's do this again. Yeah. And because they, and then like you have the situation where they all are filmmakers too. Everybody knows what we're trying to do. So like then what makes it, you know, you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment. You have to like, if people are tight or if they're bent out of shape or, you know, it fucks up the environment, people aren't relaxed, actors can't do their best work. And that does make a difference. And that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if you say like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people.

But if you look around like, what's an example, Colin Anderson, camera operator, right? Not the cinematographer. But I would tell you, I think he's the greatest camera operator there's in Hollywood. And if you want evidence that, he shot Marty Supreme. He was a camera operator on one battle after another. You know, he's, you look at his resume and you're like, oh, that's interesting. These are all fucking great movies. Now, is he personally responsible for all of it?

No, because it's a collaborative medium. There is no, like, you can be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that. Sing, write music. You can't do this job alone. Like, there are a lot of people that go into it. You know, even when I was, like, Matt was the lead in the last movie I did air that I directed. Having somebody so fucking good in your movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird.

Like, that sets this tone. And everybody else kind of goes, okay, but what's Damon like? Oh, I see this, we're taking it seriously, but nobody's going to be a dick. We're all going to do our job. We're not going to take ourselves too seriously, but we're going to take the job really seriously. And immediately, everybody kind of snaps into that. That trickle-down effect goes across the whole thing. And I think the best thing that I know how to do as a director is just create an environment

where people feel like they show up, people like me, they're rooting for me. I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad. not going to be in the movie and it was going to make me feel self-conscious. I'm listened to my idea. Yeah, and if I have something to offer, they're going to go, oh, that's a good idea. You know what I mean? And that's kind of the trick, in my view. And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people.

Every single one of them, you know, guys was, you know, some woman's assistant prop master is coming up with like the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe, they found it on eBay. Like, that's an extra mile. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you make people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and oh cool let's do a close up of that that's a really fucking cool they'll die

for you they'll go all the way and it changes the whole and and if you bonus them yeah it's it's it's not just all you know it's it's just raw there's an actually like codified bonus structure to say like we this is the way of recognizing that shit right it's like in your paycheck too it's that's very real and you guys develop this is this so this something that you had like kudos to you guys for addressing this first of all and recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and it's so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own career. We're communist, Joe. We're from Cambridge.

Keep the car running. No, no, but each deal has had this kind of, each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with, you know, different studios and platforms and stuff like that. And then just involved us basically retroactively. going, hey, we came in under, we did a great job, there's extra money, here you go. This is the first time that we were able to actually create like a schedule where it's like, because, and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix going,

okay, cool, you think you can make this work? Is this, we'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do it. So we had to say, look, we're not asking you to take a cut. But, you know, if we can, and we can tell you, if the movie is watched as many hours in the first 90 days as like this movie A, that you all know what it is, then that's, you 20% of yourself, let's say, right? You should take a hit.

So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonuses more. It's all just pegged to where you're at just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with. So they gave us like five different levels, right? Like the first couple we, hopefully we can hit and maybe the third maybe we get. And then it got to like the fifth level.

It's kind of like single double triple home run. Home run, fucking grand slam. The fifth one was 110% of all Netflix viewers or something like that. So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like 10% of them watch it again. And we were like, It's like K-pop demon.

This is the biggest K-pop demon. But that's what happened. We were laughing. And then K-pop demon hunters came along and actually did that. That's the first movie that's ever. Jesus. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over and over again.

I haven't seen it. But I mean, somebody's watching it over and over. Oh, yeah. Dude, people love it. I mean, it's, you know, the value of it is because before this, one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, well, share your chair. There used to be residuals, right?

And residuals, and it was only for sag. again, a few other things, but it was like, and you knew if you had a line in the movie, and then you'd a certain number, like at the box office, where you're gonna get another $2,000 bucks? And that was a big deal. You get that check in the mail, and like, okay, I can pay the rent for another month,

and I can do that shit. But then there was this like sort of ill, what constitutes success? Because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie, right? And it's hard to tell, well, why did you sign up for this service, right? So for a while everyone's looking at,

the first thing that you looked at when you subscribed to somebody, Okay, you're going to go buy Hulu? What did you watch first? The bear. Well, the bear must be creating value for us. But you can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go, well, you know,

Oppenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever. And, you know, that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet. Because streamers are doing a subscription model, you know. It's, you know, whether it's like a gym membership or in the fucking, you know, first of the year, you're like, I'm going to work out again. I'm going to buy that annual membership and you go twice. or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount.

Also the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you're going to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing. You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how much content. You could waste the rest of your life

sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have millions of hours more to listen to or watch. You're right. When we'd start researching that and built our own data to pull people on exams, and all this stuff, it's actually all the library stuff

that people are watching all the time. If you said like the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever, but in terms of like volume of time, I think, and doesn't come from them, but it looks a lot like, you know, we're gonna watch like Orange and New Black and the episode of suits and the old Seinfeld and friends and what, you know, Cupcake Wars or, you know,

that's what, because Americans watch six hours of TV day, right? That's crazy. And then the other six hours they're on their phone. How does anything get done? How does anything get done? When you started to make this film, like what is the process?

Like, how did you guys agree on it? Like, did you guys have it written first? Joe Conner-Roe. Before you knew you were going to Netflix with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He came to us with the script, and we've known Joe for a really... He did a movie.

His first movie was called NARC. I don't know if you ever saw. It's terrific. Yeah. So we met him way back this 25 years ago or something like that. So we met him back then. And Ben did a movie of his in, 04, I think.

So we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years. And he just sent this to us and said, and we read it and we thought it was great and bought it for the company. And then we started talking to Joe about, you know, how he saw it, you know, how he wanted to do it. And he suggested that we actually do the movie. And we were like, yeah, why don't we do it? It seems basically because we liked it. We liked it. We're not trying to just do our movies.

We want to be, you know, doing movies with all the people that we like and respect. And then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like, historically, the way it's worked is like the, you know, a studio will own an IP or a script or whatever. And then you cut and they'll say, okay, we want you to do it. Okay, well, how much, well, how much you get for the last one, right? And you go, then what's the budget? And then that's how they assign a value to it, right? but my belief was well especially when these streams are coming

into the market and chasing stuff is like this movie may be worth more and maybe worth less and that like we're all just subject to that so we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it you know pro rata and essentially that was the same process we've done eight I guess movies or so

now and we took it out and you know people wanted it and then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize and was like, okay, great. That's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template to other people go, hey, we want to do that thing, you know? And I mean, go, oh, here's the paper.

Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people say that they would want to do it, but now the template exists. So it's like plug and play. So if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that, then guess what? Just take this and don't do it. And it also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like manage the risk.

In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, shit, we got to invest all this money in the movie. so you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable, that's too edgy, or can't be R-rated because it costs this money. I get it, right? You're going to put all your money into it. You don't want money to fucking disappear. You want to make money.

Okay. So when we wrote the first movie that we're in Goodwill Hunting, it was like, we knew that had to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie with us. Two assholes and no one heard of. So I was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting, and try to keep it as inexpensive the best possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie.

That same logic carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something. So what I'd like to have happen is to say, okay, now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that like in success will actually benefit, we can lower, you know, the price up front for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting. That's an original idea. That's a, you know, that's an abnam or sinners or if I'm a, like Marty Supreme or whatever it is.

And then if it's successful, we're not all sitting here like assholes where, you guys walk off with all the money. And you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more interesting stuff. A lot of the stuff that was going on with strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business. Like where do you feel is going to be like the biggest problem with AI? Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's a lot of that where they want to use Xx. and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film.

But then there's also, you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence. You're going to have scenes that don't involve people. And it gets weird, right? It gets really weird, but there's actually an area of expertise for him. Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like, my belief is sort of like, what's going to happen with electricity?

Well, a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity. Some of us are going to be good. Some of it's going to change stuff. Some of us are going to be, like, you know, is it going to be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people. Like, it's, it's opening a door that you can't, you know, say, well, talk about it in a kind of a blanket way. But I think with what I see is, like, for example, if you try to get chat CBT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average.

And it's, and it's, I mean, I just came to stand to see what it's rights. Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer, and you're going, ah, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up where somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets, and it can give you some examples of that. I actually don't think it's very likely that it's going to be able to write anything meaningful, or in particular, that it's going to be making movies like from Holcroft, like Tilly Norwood. Like, that's bullshit. I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's not, I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way. they sort of presented it.

And really what it is is going to be a tool. Just like sort of visual facts. And yeah, it needs to have language around it. You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. Those laws already exist. You can't.

I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I might have the ability to draw you to make you a very realistic way. But that's already against the law. And the unions are going to, I think the guilds are going to manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool. tool that actually helps us. For example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot

the scene here in our parkas and, you know, whatever it is, and but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole. It doesn't save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're going to focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful, just like Spencer Tracy and Catherine Hepburn used to be like driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them and look goofy. Now, you know, and computer generate, people use a lot of computer generated stuff. And some of it is going to replace just that. Like instead of 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $2 an hour to render all the graphics for a superhero movie,

there's going to be able to do that a lot easier. There's already laws around and Guild Guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use. But also, we've been tiling extras. Like there weren't a million orcs and Middle Earth. You know what I mean? They aren't in Invictus. There weren't all those people in the stadium. Like, that's something we've been doing.

it kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier, where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense that's existential dread. It's going to wipe everything out. But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is A, adoption is slow, it's incremental. I think a lot of that rhetoric

comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies where they go, we're going to change everything. In two years, there's going to be no more work. Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the CAPEX spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's going to scale up, it can be three times

as good, except that actually chat GP5, about 25 times percent better than chat CPT4, and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those nice things that, it's like plateauing. The early AI, the line went up very steeply. And it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better. And a lot of people are like, fuck this, we watch ShagabD4,

because it turned out, like, the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like, as like companion bots to chat with at night. And so there's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it. I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to, like, focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're, and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic. That's sort of a side issue. I think for this particular purpose,

like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and they may get harder to do it. And it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it. Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people. You know, like you're still appreciate it. a handmade table, you know, you're gonna appreciate, like, did you see, um, uh, the beast

in me, Claire Danes? Yeah, no, I didn't. I didn't. Yeah, I heard it was great. That lady, whoo. Yeah, that's terrific. When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ. Like, you're like, you, like, her fucking lips are quivering.

Like, you believe everything that she's saying. But you're right. People want that. You can't, you can't fake that. You can't, right. I'll say, like, I did this interview with, uh, with Dwayne Johnson because they, you know, when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them, you know.

And I did this interview with Dwayne, and I asked him, there's this scene in the smashing machine where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital. Yeah. And it really walloped me this scene. I thought it was so great. And I asked him, and I was just like,

can you just tell me about this scene? Like, did Benny Safdi directed it? Did Benny write that? Did you work on that scene with them? He goes, no, we actually worked on it together. And I go, well, how did that scene come to be? And Duane goes, well, my father was an alcoholic. And I don't remember if he said substance abuser alcoholic,

but I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn him. But he had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, and when he would talk to me, you know, that's how he would defend himself. He was almost a bargaining thing. Because there's a thing when this guy comes to him. He's overdosed.

And Duane's amazing in this scene. He's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy? And then I woke up and thought, I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him. And you see him and he's kind of tap dancing. And his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire. And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head.

And it's like, and it's, I mean, it's just, it was, I'm not doing it justice if you haven't. I mean, I know you've seen, I know you've seen it. Yeah. But he said, yeah, so he explains that about his father. And then he goes, And when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when the oncologist came in

and she was lying in the hospital bed. And when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head. And I looked at her and she just looked like a little kid, you know. And I was like, all right. So that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right, from his life experience. And the actor in him, right,

sees this scene goes into his memory, pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene

and then he goes and performs it that way and a dude walking in off the road goes to the movies sees this understands somehow that it's fucking real. I didn't know why. That's why I wanted to ask him.

How did that scene come to be? I genuinely didn't know. and made me tear up, you know. Like, that is, there's no fucking AI that can do that. No. It's a whole lot more than photorealistic images. Yeah. Yeah.

You could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move his face into different. No fucking thing could ever do that. The complications of real life experiences relayed. That is a completely human. That is an artist. That's a piece of art, right? That comes out of a lived human experience. That movie gave me so much anxiety.

There's moments where Emily Blunt is arguing with Emily. She's so good. I really said, I was like that. I think that's the best she's ever been. You know, we live in the same building in New York. She's like, very dear friend of mine. And I was like, I really think that's the best she's ever been. And then I said, and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan.

And he kind of stopped and looked at me like, he didn't say it, but he was kind of like, she's pretty fucking good in my movie too. Well, she's great period. She's great period. He's great period, but there's something about that. Well, I knew Mark. I knew Mark from, I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC. So I knew the whole journey of him.

And I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero, blockbuster Hulk of a man, he gets to be that, but be a great actor. And, you know, you can't really get a person to look like that. to express emotions and express and he was Mark Kerr. I know. If you know Mark, I mean,

it was fucking great acting. I completely forgot it was him. And somebody who had seen it before told me that was going to happen. And I was like, all right, we'll see. And it was like,

from the second it started. It didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of like the amount of people that went to see it. But I think overall in time, people appreciate it. Yeah, that's what people go back to look at and talk about it.

Because it's a movie about MMA. So, A lot of people are like, I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads, but it's not. It's just a movie that happens to be around M.A. But it's in a great movie. The scenes are fucking fantastic. The acting is so good. And the right, and even the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man. It's really like they, I saw all those fights. They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get. And just his crazy struggle. And you know the story. behind the documentary, the smashing machine?

No. So the smashing machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride. And he was the most terrifying guy in the world. He was 265 pounds of solid muscle just blowing through people, didn't even look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him.

No one knew he was a drug addict. No one knew. And he spiraled out as they were filming and he let them film him. Let them film him shooting up. Let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills. with him and all his shit everywhere and just completely falling apart.

While they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart like live in front of the documentary. It was fucking amazing documentary. I got to see it. It's really good. But I was so happy that they put it in a film. And I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in.

Yeah, and by like galactic success, too, right? I mean, it's, he has, he had to and will continue to have to push for that, right? Because it's what he wants. Yeah. And not because what, because what they're going to continue to want him to do is, you know, the thing that that mince them money. Yeah, but I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie. From the conversations I've had with him, yeah. This is, this is, this has changed him.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're going to be boxed. Yeah. And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box. And so you see him now, he's thinner. He's lost a lot of weight. Like Dave Batista went through a very similar thing too, right? Yeah.

He wanted to be, he wanted to have more range. Wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things. Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right? It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from wrestling to me to like the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very, it's like it's incredible that he did that. And now he's in this place where he's got this leverage because he's so beloved and, you know, that he can kind of tailor what he wants from here on out.

That's hard to bring the audience with you. Right. No, no, no, I know you like this thing. But let me show you something else. You know, it's sort of like, you go to the concert, the band wants to play the new songs. I play the fucking hits, you know. You know, he's a little gilded gaze.

All right, fucking satisfaction. No, I love the song too. You know my acoustic thing that I did? Yeah, I went to see the Stones and they were here in town and there was a few songs. They played that were like new songs. Oh, really?

You see the audience. It's like, okay. Yeah, okay. Go get a beer. Get the other one. Yeah, that's, well, I mean, But, you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice. And he's made it.

And it was amazing vehicle, too, because he still kept that superhuman hulkish frame. Yeah. And then, but also showed, like, God, there's, like, amazing depth there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing that's, I think, especially because it's, it's collaborative. It happens to other people.

That's what movies do that other shit doesn't do. It's just create, like, you feel for people. It's empathy. It's all made up, right? That's not him. It's all. It's all an illusion. It's all bullshit.

But if you do it really well, like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something like all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches, like, these things in ourselves. Like, you know, it has that same effect that Dwayne went through of,

articulated to you about, like, these moments that were kind of burned into his memory, then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking, like, oh, yeah, my father died, or I went through this with my kid,

or I'm fucking, I feel fucking alone and miserable. And here's this, like, a hopeful moment that someone has to go, maybe I can do something. You know, they inspire you, they touch you, they move you. And it's the thing to go for it. The other thing is, you know, it's a, is to tell the lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all.

And it's a... Either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few hours. Yeah. And hopefully it breeds compassion. Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there. The most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people. You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawk about this.

There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world. I forget the name of it. Tomorrow or something. People will find it. It's a great fucking movie. But there's this scene where he's trying to get, he's talking to Kevin Bacon,

Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him. And it's so, fuck, I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter. Like you're fucking locked in. You're locked in. You're like, oh, shit. I get that's the magic. And and he was like, but I'm locked in too. Like that's it's like a hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way. Like you you have the lines, but you're living it. And so and that's either done or it's not done. And when it's not done, you could tell someone's kind of just performative. You feel it when you're watching. Yes. If it doesn't. that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening. That's the magic of film. And sometimes you trick people, I guess,

but for the most part, you don't. If you're feeling it and it's really happening, it's much more like other human beings recognize human beings experiencing real shit. Yes. They really do. That's what I know what sorrow looks like. Without having the fucking, I can't break it down for you.

Or I even, you know, we all know kind of what, like, oh, he's a little anxious right now. Or did I maybe offend him? and mores, you know, all these little things. And when some, like, in the rare moments, when it's these big feelings or the things happen, you feel it too, you know?

And usually, like an example, this is an old saying about like, you know, actors try to cry, people try not to cry. Like, because when you're really experiencing that shit, you don't want people to see it. You want to hide it. You want to, no, I'm okay, I'm fine. You know, it's like, you want to pull the sheet up over you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But the other thing that's really

interesting from our side of doing it, because he and I've talked about this a lot, is, and I've always said publicly, like, great actors are good enough for both of you. Like, when you're in a scene with a great actor, that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever you want to call it, that energy, that place where you go, right?

They're bringing you right with it. It's like a fucking tractor beam. They will suck you right in with them and, like, as quickly as you look into their eyes and you're like, just there. And it's like, and it's not like, it's like riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life.

you know it can be the hardest thing in the world and it can be the easiest thing in the world when you're with a great actor it's just if the scenes yeah this is a real paradoxes like all this stuff that I'm the most proud of the weird thing about us has felt very easy at that time and the shit where you're banging your head

against the wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and all the thing and it just it ends up fucking feeling empty and the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my insecurity is like should be harder than this right are we are like we work hard enough or we get you know right right

And learn to kind of just trust that. Go, like, it feels good. Let's just keep going, you know. Well, there's some scenes in this movie without giving too much away where there's conflict between you two guys that seems so real. And that's even harder to recreate

because you guys are good friends. And you're making the movie together and you've got this scene where you're acting in this, and with the conflict with the two of you guys, the movie. But it's very fucking real. The reason that it was real is,

I like that scene. The reason it works, I think, is because he's coming at me and he really needs to know something and I'm completely blanking him like I'm just he's going you gotta tell me what's going on man he's like it's awesome like what is going

what is the thing and I'm just like literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre way which which like was really frustrating him in real life because he he was that feeling of like it's fucking tell me dude it's you and me like

when he finally goes he screams out I don't trust you right now that's a fucking problem right which is like what you would say to an old friend like what are you doing man like what what are you like the betrayal tell me the fucking the betrayal is that

or tell me the truth lie lie to me and like step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden just act like give me this weird look of just like I don't know you know and so we were doing the scene it was really fucking busy mom I could see him like getting like The one line that wasn't written that I saw that I didn't remember doing was I wouldn't have never fucked you like this.

I would have never fucked you like that. I like that. Keep that thing. I wouldn't have fucked you. And I was, I thought I was like, what is he? I thought what did I? And I saw watch the playback. It was on those rare moments again.

It was like where it was that thing of you doing all the work by not doing anything, which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made. And it just was confusing and felt like just, you know, leaving you out in the fucking cold. I think the only thing I could rely on is like, you know, I wouldn't do this to you. In those moments where you're ad-living a line, where a line comes, is it just just that feels like that's what you say? It's just kind of like he couldn't stop from saying it. Right. You know? But you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay.

You know what I mean? Because the part of your brain that will, like, govern you or tell you something's not okay, whatever, we'll step in if it's sort of like, you know, listen, I expect you to fucking do this box. And there's directors and writers who really do really care about every word precisely and that's how they do it. And that's fine. And that can be great too. For me, like, I find it becomes more interesting. And sometimes better stuff happens if you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines. I don't have to see any of the lines in the scene.

Then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right. But it's that fake thing that never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think what's my next line. What am I supposed to say and how should I say that? And it's not about the lines ever. It's not about the words. It's about what's the scene about? What's happening in the scene? It's one of the reasons why curb your enthusiasm is so great.

Because Larry David just gives you a place to get to. Yeah. It gives them kind of a loose agenda of what's going to happen. And then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out. Yeah. And a lot of times that shows about the awkward shit in between people are missing each other and not sure of themselves and a little embarrassed. Fucking genius show.

It really is. And people talk, like we're talking. Like, you occasionally talk over each other. There's a stumble. There's no one, like, what? What do the fuck are you talking? There's weirdness to. Because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen, right?

And that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think, is it's really all about listening. And like, I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass. And that's how he works, where you just know the agenda going in. You know some basic things that you know what your guy needs going in like I was playing a chief warrant officer and I had to go through a door and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him and I this is what I needed to know from him. I needed to secure the house with my guys and I needed to get to this guy. We needed to make sure everybody here was secure. So and it just and they, and he put me with a bunch of real combat veterans and we fucking went in and, you know, there are the extras. This is another thing that does your job for you.

It's just having around the. real people. Joe putting the cops from Miami, you know, all in these parts. And it's just, like, by osmosis, you feel more legitimate. The thing feels more authentic to the audience. You don't know why because you don't know what the, how the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics team in Miami. But when you see the real guys, you kind of, oh, you're like, yeah, that seems right.

Miami is a perfect place to have it, too. Miami's a fucking nutty place. Well, it's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami. and the guy who ran that, this guy, Chris Casiano, is Joe's friend, and he's the guy that my character's based on. So Chris was, Chris, we went, you know, we wrote along with Chris down there. We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them. And then they came up and they were, you know, all in the movie. And Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time.

So any question, like little details. All right, how do I go through this door? What do I do? What do you do here? What's the protocol here? What you know all of that stuff was kind of overseen by him so that it so that it was how they really do it That whole fucking town is so

Did you ever see cocaine cowboys? Yes Oh shit The entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one year Either wound up murdered or in jail That's what happens All of a sudden you push so much fucking money Into something right and it's like

Before they even kind of figured out like You know and it was there wasn't even a lot of stigma I was like, ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys, fun, drug. But, you know, there's some statistic about, like, you know, the amount of money in the banks in Miami was, like, the same as the rest of the country. More banks, poor capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country.

Because they were just laundering money. Right. And they got away with it. They literally got away with it. Have you ever flown over Bimini? You know, the... No. So if you ever fly over Bimini, there are all these, like,

Cessna's underwater. all these planes, like, around the island. Because what they used to do, Bimini is like the closest, it's 50 miles off the coast of Florida, they would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water. They would land on purpose?

On purpose. Because there's no runway on Bimini. There's no, it's like, fuck it, we're going to dump the plane the water and bring it out? They would have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking, right?

and then they put it The Coast Guard figures they're always coming for them That's why they have 10 boats They throw the drugs into one of the boats And they got a one out of ten chance of making it They just scatter And the coast guard goes after

One of them in hopes they get the right one And not it's just like no it's just taking a cruise Tonight What's the problem? But the planes are still all Submerged Like the water's so clear you can see How many fucking?

Oh wow There you go Wow, that's crazy. How many fucking planes are out there? I flew over probably 20 years ago, but I mean, there's... That was a... I don't know how long. I mean, but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cesson, it probably wasn't...

I mean, with the amount of drugs they were moving on a... Yeah, there you go. Fucking wild. They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow. Yeah, they land and it's like... Fuck it, we can swim. Five to ten feet of water. And what do they land at whatever, 55 knots, so you just try to...

Water looks nice. too. Like, yeah, sure, you're about... Wow. I won't be comfortable, but... I mean, Sully landed at 737 or whatever it was in the water. Yeah. Fucking wild. What a crazy part of

our culture that that happened. Yeah. The whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular, like Miami Vice, all that shit. It's like, it shaped the entire country. For sure. Oh, yeah. I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like, I think he was from Boston

and he was like the pilot and he had figured out the route and he was like man we could have gotten away with this forever somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught he was like I had it all he was clearly really smart the guys did too you know what I mean there's a whole lot of people out there that were like yeah we had a nice run

that's why I got eight houses you know it's like oh yeah that's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country there's a lot of people that got very wealthy including banks which is just really crazy Banks with jewelry companies. Oh, yeah.

There was like more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than everyone was in the country. And he was like, doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here. You don't say all cash, sure. Yeah, we can make you a deal, sure. How many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about?

It's probably worth just checking. When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up. Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot. Yeah, yeah. Get a truck. Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the backyard.

I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it. They were making so much money. They just had to bury it places. That's fucking crazy. Well, it's why it's the perfect backdrop for the film, you know,

because, you know, that, the situation that the cops, without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops turn dirty. It's because it just can get

There's so much temptation. Yes. Like you take these people, you know, you got like six, seven people. They fucking work for a living. They have the same bullshit they have to deal with. And there's $20 million, you know. And it's, I mean, it makes for great, like, drama, too, even like the, you know, with the performances, because all of a sudden somebody's thinking like, okay, how are they going to react?

You know, who's me the first person to say, you know, I'm going to have to turn this all in, you know? And, like, getting to play that shit. And for me also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious. or preachy, because I really think movies, we're talking about, like, what they do well. What they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. As soon as you get into that thing, the audience is like,

you know, I'm going to go to church for that or fucking school. I don't need that shit here. But I like that what was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job. And that there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of value, like these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job, are trying to get through the day.

And just at the end of they have done their job, like they said they were going to do, you know, adhere to the fucking ethics that they're supposed to, and at the end of the day, be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not fucking stealing the money

or flipping somebody over, you know what I mean, and doing all that shit. And that's the win. The wind doesn't have to be, get away with the bag of money or fucking, you know, saves a world from, you know,

the evil scientist, laser beam or whatever. It's like, at the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look, you know, I quitted myself according to what the fucking expectations were and what am I true to my word?

And I think there's so, like, that's a, I don't know, that affected me. I found that kind of moving. And you can't do it if you create, like, if, you know, to credit to your script, like just two-dimensional characters, oh, I'm the hero, I'm the villain, or this person would never do that. They don't have to be real people, like, it would be subject to, like, temptation and money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want, or that's going to make your life better.

You know, it's something different to everybody. But, you know, especially when you're like, you're facing, like, you know, the custody thing or the, you know, the sick relative or whatever it is. That's, it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to that kind of temptation, you know. Sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, oh, well, you're dirty. You're putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling like undervalued.

Like the woman in the scene where Catalina's like, I get fucking pissed. I get yelled at. I get shit on. You know what I mean? Like, I'm out here grinding every fucking day. You know, it's a lot to, it's a lot to, it's a lot to ask. And I think it's worth kind of making that heroic without sort of indicating too much. No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments.

And that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one moment in a movie where like, what? Come on. How do you do that? No, it's convenient. You guys don't have any of those. There's none of that. And I loved it.

I loved it. I loved that aspect of it too where it felt like all of it was like I believed it. I believe it. And that's really a credit to Joe and his, like, taste. And that's why we really thought, like, this guy knew how to make narc. He kind of obviously understood this world and understood that it has to, above all, it has to feel real.

And that's why he was open to like, okay, whatever happens, you throw in a line, maybe it's good. You can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know? But, like, you got to be able to take that shot and we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people. I mean, I kind of feel for this cops, a bunch of actors to send on you. And they're like, what kind of sweatshirt is that?

It was like that Michael J. Fox James Woods movie. Remember that movie? I forget what it was called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods. He's studying him for a character, and James Woods is a real, like, detective. And he's just like, get this guy away from me. I kept thinking of that. Kind of hair gel you. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, like all these questions, you know.

But they were very tolerant of us, which was nice and really, really helpful, you know. Because it's always details. It's always details. It's like how fastidiously do you kind of mind for those details? Because I've always been convinced that like an audience, it's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something. They feel it. They just don't believe it.

And it's usually because those details are, you don't get those. And that's the only thing. Like, I'm not great at imagining something. Let's invent this. Everything that I've done like that I like has been a result of something I found a research. Like for the town, I went down and just went through the, you know, all the prisons, you know, out there, Massachusetts, federal prison, state prisons, and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks.

And, you know, kind of sometimes, you know, you want to know, and then sat down with the FBI guys and was like, what are they like? And the great shit, you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in like, I'm in, like, wet wallpole or I'm at the prison of debt, or whatever. And some guy said, like, after talking for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened or fucked up anything you remember like i was like yeah one time uh you know we were coming out of this thing we robbed this truck and you know we had the mask we got the switch car we drove around the corner and whatever we pull up we get out with

fucking guns the mass whole thing and we look over and it's just cops sitting there doing construction duty and i was like right then didn't even tell me the story i was like oh shit i was like what happened he said you know he looked at us we looked at him he looked the other the way. Whoa. And I was like, really? He goes, yeah, you didn't want to end up on the wall at the VFW. It was like...

These guys with full automatic weapons, masks on, switching cars. I was like, I'm putting that in the movie. And it's a great moment in the town, like in the movie. Because, you know, they all jump out of the things. And then, and he... Oh, yeah, here it is. Exactly. It was like...

It's great. And it's this awkward. They just stopped. And this dude, he sees them. They see them. he's like a fuck we have to kill this guy nope

he turns away okay wow it's such a great but that's straight from research which I always loved that story and then the line is here that he put it here

and one on it up at the wall to VFW yeah it was a great line it was such a simple explanation for what do you think he did you know and why like and that's exactly what it would have been like that guy

the next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the VFW. Yeah. You know, and he knew it, and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to do it like that. You know, that was... And that kind of stuff is, I don't know, it's very human calculations and interact. I mean, it's in a very extreme version of it,

but it also doesn't have... Sometimes it's not dramatic at all, you know? It's like, yeah, that was an easy decision. And the guy never says anything, I didn't see anything, you know? And kind of can't really blame him, you know? Yeah. The town was a great fucking movie, too.

And I knew a lot of people like that, you know, from boxing gyms and stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. I knew a guy who was a hit man for Whitey Bulger. I knew a guy who was a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing people. Yeah. What town do you grow up in? I lived in Newton. You did?

Yeah, I grew up in, I lived in Jamaica plane for a little while. I lived in Newton, but I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting. It was mostly training. And so I was around a lot of these, like, very shady characters who were in. in the fighting world. And a lot of them had backgrounds in crime. One of the guys that I went to, that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while,

and then he got arrested because a guy got killed and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting it with cocaine to keep him awake while they were doing it. And then they cut his hands off and cut his head off. And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that. Jesus. Yeah, he didn't wind up going to jail for that.

He's dead now, but he was somehow or another, at least peripherally involved. Yeah. Yeah, well, I didn't do any fighting, but I went around and found a lot of things. They're one of the things about being an actor, and people will talk to you, you know, which is a fucking amazing gift, even if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I killed guys. You know, they'll just come out and, like, it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply. Like, these guys in the prison, what the fuck are they going to talk? You know what I mean?

But they're, like, interesting in it for whatever. And, you know, so you avail yourself for that. And then I had like, you know, we had people around that movie who everybody knew. Yeah, he did that job. He never got arrested. And so, like, people, you know, meet people, you know, and talk to them. And it's interesting because it's such a good lesson for doing this job, which is that they're never how you think they're supposed to be, like, the murderer person. Right.

You know, there's always something a little, I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent kind of loose cannon fucking guy who supposedly had done all this shit. stabbed and killed two people, Fanio Hall, and shot these guys in a robbery. And he, like, shows up with his polo shirt, kind of tucked in, you know. He's how, how's it going? You know, just like, I never would have fucking put this guy on,

fucking killing four people. You know what I mean? Yeah, I have a good time. So I love that one movie, and you're just thinking, fuck, man, like, this is why, and it's a really good lesson for, like, you know, we tend to read a script

and, okay, this guy's the tough guy, and he's going to be the, it's like, you work with this, like, I had the fucking, like, the opportunity to train with these Delta guys. Like, you know, it's the most elite special forces

combat fucking operators in the world. I mean, I suppose the SEALs will take a perception to that, but just numerically, right? There's been less than 900 guys ever in the history of Delta. You meet him, and they're not the biggest guys.

They're not the toughest guys. They're not trying to fucking be hard. And, you know, they're the most relaxed at ease. And, you know, I found myself just being like, finally I was like, what, can I just ask you? What do you think makes somebody, like, qualify for the delta force.

What's a good delta operator? It's like, uh, you know, problem solving. Problem solving? They guys, yeah, it's probably like your job. I was like, no, let me tell you noticed. It's really not like my job. I appreciate it.

The very big fucking difference. He's like, yeah, you solve problems. Like him, no, try to kill me. See, that's the thing. But that was the closest insight I got to, which was, I've always kind of thought this about like a guy's like Brady or something. There's guys that just don't.

get tight and that they are they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking six to one. How do you think we should get home? Like just having your wits about you to make that calculation while, by the way, you're in a fucking gunfight and things, you know, I'm sure that does make because those are the people where I'd be in a fucking panic and have no idea what to do. And you get like attracted to the person who's like, seems to have a like, hey,

it's good, we're gonna be okay. Everybody gets your shit, we're going over here. You'll just follow that guy. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But it's not always the most, maybe it's just because they're so confident. They're not like, I don't need to prove

that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't even get in fights, like, I have a weapon. You know what I mean? It's just a, it surprises me how those kinds of, like, extraordinary experiences in people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves. and how they show up.

Right, we have caricatures in the head of what, like, these tough people are like. Well, you see that about MMA fighters. Like, there's a lot of MMA fighters. You meet them. They're, like, the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in the world. I remember going to one of the events in L.A. I think it was at Staples,

and I was backstage and was talking to, one of, like, the lawyers for the UFC about, we were talking about Connor McGregor, and he was telling me a great story about him. And this guy walks up, and he's in a like chinos like khaki pants and like a blue button up like you know kind of business shirt with spectacles and he's very small and I kind of don't really regard him and I'm still hearing this story and then Padgett goes Matt do you know Henry and I turn and it's Henry Sehudo and I'm like

this fucking guy could wreck me right now absolutely fucking destroy me and he and he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on. Yeah, right. Exactly. He's not carrying himself. Like, he's, he just is the thing, you know. And find out a little bit too late. Yeah, don't find that one out late. Yeah. A lot of guys do. Unfortunately. Yeah. That's, it's, it's, well, they don't have to prove themselves, right? They do it all the time. The same was Delta Force guys. Like, this idea, like, this, like, outwardly brash, tough guy, usually that kind of machismo and that's bullshit. That's, you. That's, you. That's, you. You're using that because you're insecure.

The secure people are very calm and genuinely very friendly. Really nice. Yeah. That's been my experience. Yeah, it's crazy, right? It's kind of beautiful, too. You know, I've kind of like, what a great guy. And you feel like, that's nice of you to be so sweet to me because you obviously, you don't have to be.

Right, right, right. I'll just give you my watch if you want to that. Yeah. No, it is a fascinating thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what a tough man is, what a good woman is, what this is, what of that is. And I think one of the beautiful things about film, when a film is really good, is you see these complex characters,

and it sort of like reformulates in your mind, like what a person actually is. Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, look, the fundamental, like, challenge, I think, in life is, like, to find some humility, which means actually thinking you might be wrong

about the shit that you're, pretty sure about. And it means that like you kind of have to assume somebody else might have a point. You know, it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees you. They because fuck him. He's stupid. He's an asshole. You know, like those are things that actually take work to get to because the first instinct, because you just defend your idea or whatever, it's easier is to just that it's a zero sum game somehow. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that two competing ideas can't exist. Well, that somebody can't be a good person. And believe it. Right. Right. Like if you're going to decide, You disagree.

We don't believe. I don't know. What about this? What about that? But once you find yourself relying on, like, well, I need to, like, zero out this person's humanity in order to defend my idea. I think that's a pretty good indicator that, like, there's something wrong with the way you're thinking. Like, because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees me. I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Sopranos is that the main character, the guy that you loved was a fucking murderer.

Yeah. He was like who would murder his friends. He was a complete mobster and a thug. But you really loved him. He loved the shit out of that guy. It was so complicated. I'm rewatching. It was my daughter right now.

Doing the part that you found yourself being like, I don't know, I think you probably has to kill him now. Yeah. But that's also, that's also great, a great actor. Like there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did streetcar named Desire. And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like, freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski, he was making people empathize with

Stanley Kowalski. And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute. He's this, he was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and, you know, and was just, and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play. But Brando was like, no, he's a human being and I'm going to play him like a fucking human being. And it changed the play. But Williams, in all of his writings. life in the real world. So everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing.

And people don't set out to be like, I'm just going to hurt someone or dominate the world. Like you think, well, I got to protect what I have. It's like, you know, not bringing back to this movie, but it's like what I liked about RIP was it was kind of a slippery slope. You know, the first time you take a little money. And then, well, you know, I got to cover that. I don't want to go to jail. I think my reason why I did that.

But now I've told a lie. Now I've got to cover that thing. And now you have guys who both live by this code that's very, hey, you're to people who are with you and you gotta have this fucking, and so now is to be able very similar, like by that kind of slippery slope of ultimately find themselves, you know, will only kill one another.

Because it's really not, I don't believe in that one choice. It's like more how do you find yourself, you dig yourself in a fucking hole because you're just covering up the, trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know? And everybody thinks, is, of course, the roots for themselves.

It's like empathize with themselves. That's what we have to be concerned, with ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit. It's hard to expect people to go, like, all right, and what about, you know, like what they think. And I think that's, I think it's a much more honest evaluation of people and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit that's sort of beautiful about people,

like rather than this notion of like, well, we're gonna be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever. And any infraction, then it's like permanently stains you, Right. Right. It was like we were talking about earlier about people that have been canceled, you know, that this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did and now we're going to exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization for life. Perpetuity, yeah. It's fucking crazy. Yeah. I was, because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail for 18 months or whatever and then come out and say, no, but I, that we can't, I paid my debt.

Like, we're done. Yeah. Can we be done? Like, the thing about, about that, you know, getting kind of excoriated publicly like that, it's just never ends. and it's the first thing that, you know, it just will follow you to the grave, I think. Well, it's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye

and they have this, like, desire to chop them down always. You know, and anybody that stumbles in the public eye, they want to destroy their life, and they want to just pile on. And you're not there with them, you don't feel the empathy, you're not talking to, they're not a human being.

It's just text on a screen. Right. Yeah, it's just like kind of, like I was saying like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, oh, he's just, in trouble, you know, there's this, you know, human, like, we have dark fucked up instincts, too, sometimes to, like, isolate people or get joy out of someone else.

They're in trouble because, maybe because part of it's saying, hey, it's not me, you know, so if you can point the finger, everyone's looking over there, we feel safer, you know? Right. But it's, it's like, yeah, and to take any forgiveness out of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually go, all right, yeah, I did that, fuck shit, that was wrong, I get it. But, you know, because it doesn't matter. Once you've said you've done it, you've become like an outcast.

And I don't think anybody wants to think, you know, like you're the sum total of who you are is your worst moment. Right. You know, it's sort of like the, you know, I think you want to be judged just as well. Are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful? It's not to say to forget, you know, there's people that just over and over and over and they're doing horrible shit, don't care. Right.

I get it. No one's trying to like absolve that. But you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in the complicated way. Or else it's kind of become those things. It's like a get one of ours or one of them, the instinct to get like a team, tribal oriented. And it just becomes a sport. Yeah, yeah.

It's also like, who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption? That's crazy. Like, that's just denying the very nature of human beings. And that people do things that they regret. And then they become better people because of it. Some of the people I would rely on the most, like trust my kids with the most of them.

I've done shit that they really regret. And, you know, what's, yeah, objectively wrong. And other people have been like, I shit, I did that. I fucking, whether it's like addiction, I got myself down this fucking right, did this, I did this. They're able to go, I did it. I'm sorry, it's real. I shouldn't have done it.

It was wrong. Actually, those people can become someone that's very trustworthy. Yeah. Because you're like, this motherfucker will say if they've done some, they'll actually look at their own behavior. They'll acknowledge it. And then you feel good and you feel much versus someone, Who tells you, like, I always get it right.

Everything's, well, yeah, it's like it's all, it's about evolution, right? And in our own personal evolution, and we're all on our own path towards that. Like, the idea of attacking someone, it's like, oh, so you, you waste the test? Like, put your pencil down? Like, you nail being human? You're done. Oh, yeah, if you did nail being human, that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness. Yeah, right.

It's a giant part of the, you haven't nailed it by definition. If you're out there throwing stones. It's most of the people that I find, especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something, most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past. And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack. That's that thing. Like if I can point my finger, it's like, no one's going to be. Oh, he's a good guy.

Ben's a good guy. He's calling them out. Yeah, exactly. Meanwhile, you know. Yeah. If you like, like, yeah. It's like you tell me to see Wake Up Dead Man, the, the, knives out the third knives out. Oh, it's great.

And I watched, I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting, like, you know, I'm not a religious guy. I don't like, that's, you know, and yeah, I'm aware of all the like, okay, you know, there's the religion, then there's people who's supposed to be rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about like, what's the role of

grace in life, you know? Yeah. And a really honest examination of that, like, sitting side by side with, yeah, okay, you don't believe that, but like, and, you know, so it's not about like, whether it's going to argue over fucking evolution. It's about like, how graceful are you in your life? You know, how much fucking dignity can you afford other people?

I know you're willing to recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to like to try to sort of be to find that grace, to get better. You know, that was really beautiful and kind of rare and really surprised. I was really surprised too. I kind of put it on and not, you know, not thinking I like it. I mean, murder mystery. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah.

Yeah, I loved it too. I think it's one of the best of the three. It's my favorite too. It was my favorite of the three. Those are great. Daniel Craig is great in that role. He's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guy goes from James Bond to that. And so many other things as well. So it was John, Josh O'Connor, that who played the priest. Because I first saw him on the ground. Yeah, I liked him a lot. And so I've fucking, man, what an actor he is. Really, really good. How much film do you guys consume? Do you spend a lot of time watching films? I mean, do you consider it?

There's a lot, like, if we're working as we're watching cuts after cuts and going to the editing room, like there's a lot of kind of work around all the stuff that we have going that eats into a lot of time. Mostly is trying to keep up with what people are doing. My issue is really that like we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out and are more interesting. They're all jammed out at the last fucking month of the year. And so all of a sudden you're trying to race to all these movies. Yeah, right. I got really lucky, like, recently my son, you know, who's 13,

society, he wants to, like, watch movies, you know? And I, like, give him shit, like, what are you fucking, we always looking at TikTok and shit? Like, let's watch a movie. And, you know, he's kind of blowing me off and roll his eyes. And you're like, you know, I mean, if you're a dad, you're kind of an asshole fundamental. You're like, come on, you don't know what's going on. You know what I mean?

Like, he told me one time, he was like, Dad, I said, let's watch this movie. I played in the trailer. It was, I can't remember what the movie was. It was a good movie. And the trailer was. was good. He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do? You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors.

I was just like, wow. I went and told the editors, I told Billy and Chris that there's like, guys, I got news for you. But now he's like, all right, let's watch, like, what are some movies I should watch? You got ladder box, you got into that thing, you know, it's like, so I said, okay,

what are the great movies? I'll give you a list. I start giving him a list. They started watching them. And so, I mean, this is like heaven for me, so it's like, okay, what are you watching King of Comedy. Like last week you watched Taxi Driver, King Cup, all these Scorsese movies. And it really was like, oh man, because in my mind

I'm like, sure, I've seen that movie. I know. I watched them again. It was like seeing, I realized how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger. And it really and it was just the most beautiful fucking experience for me to watch my son, like taking an interest

and the, you know, the older two have always been a little bit like, yeah, dad, no great. But you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really. Guess what I'm coming to the set? No, I'm good. Well, it's just too much familiarity. You know? You grow up with a dad as a movie star.

You just like, eh. The kids got to end. And I get it. You got to be your own person, doing your thing. They have all their own shit. And I get, you know, I never even, so I never expected it from my son. And I don't know that he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't want to lean on him. Like, hey, get into the family business.

Most of the time, it's just like, you know, we go to, like, basketball games, baseball, all that stuff. But this was a really, it was like, oh, fuck. I was like, so joyful. You know what I mean? I sit there and watch the movies with my kid. I was like, this doesn't get better. This is the happiest. I may ever be in my whole life.

You know, right here, watch this movie, and he's like, well, he's telling me what he thinks, you know? It's just like, like, honestly, the rest of the day, you can fucking keep it. That's awesome. That's the best. Well, it's great that you guys still love film, you know? It hasn't become just a job. It hasn't become a thing that you do.

that you really enjoy it and love it. Yeah, it was never a job. I mean, it really, like, it was, it was like an absolute dream from the time we were kids. We did fucking high school theater together, you know? That's crazy. It was like, we're lucky to get it

and lucky to, the whole idea that you could even, the goal was like to make a living. Then not have to be like, well, I'm an actor, you know, slash a waiter, contractor, dental assistant, whatever the fuck it is, you know? Like, actually I can earn money, I can, and we always figured, like, I don't need that much.

Especially if we can have kids. Yeah. You know, okay, we can make a living or it's, you know, maybe it's fucking going to be dinner theater or maybe it's going to be right. Yeah. There'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it. Yeah. Well, there's something that, I mean, I love when people love things.

I spend time on YouTube watching people like fix watches, you know. Like, I don't know why, but I love when people make furniture. I love watching people do things that they really love, that they're invested in. I think we all have that thing in us. where we see someone who's got a passion for something, someone who really loves it. And that's what everybody really wants in life to be lost in the thing you love,

to have a purpose. Yeah. And it's beautiful. I agree. Watching someone else with true purpose is... Yeah. Very... It's hypnotics.

It reminds you Joe versus the volcano. He goes into buy luggage. He goes to one of our favorite thing. He's like, uh, he was luggage. Is the central preoccupation of my life. Guy's a luggage salesman, and he fucking loves nothing more than luggage. And like,

and it's the greatest thing. scene. I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did saving Private Ryan. I was like, can you tell me about that scene? Because we love this scene so much. And he goes, and he named the actor. He was a Broadway actor, I guess, the guy. He came in. He worked for like one day in this scene. And he's so good in that movie. And then at the

very end, he's showing him all the luggage. And Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks he's dying. And so he basically goes, well, what's the best luggage? And he goes, well, if I had the means, sir. And he opens up this thing, and there's this trunk, and it's like this music plays, and he opens it. And Tom Hanks is like, I'll take two of them. And he goes, may you live to be a thousand years old?

This is the greatest day of his life. Oh, God. That's amazing. You guys have been in some fucking bangers, man. Save it Private Ryan, that opening film, the storming of the beach, unbelievable. That might be the most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made. So I remember reading the script and there was all these dialogue,

all this stuff that was written. And I came late because I'm only in the, He shot it chronologically, and I'm only in the last, you know, the last act of the movie, basically. And he told me on set, I was saying, I go, how did it go? The beginning of the, you know, there's all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in. And Stephen goes, he just goes, I cut all of that out. He goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie. Whoa.

And that was when I was like, oh, my God, this movie is going to be fucking unbelievable. I think Tom says. like I'll see you on the beach or something. You know, guys are puking. Look at the man next to you. He's not going to live to you. That was the script, right? Remember that?

It was, look at the man next to you. He won't live. He's going to die. He's like, two out of three of you are going to die. So look at the, to your left. Look to your right. And feel bad for those two sons of bitches because they're not going to make it.

You know, it was stuff like that. And Stephen was just like, nope. Wow. No. No. These guys are puking. It's like the things up. You can just hear,

you just like, and then just boom, and you're into it. And also they did this incredible, like cinema changing. Open the shutter. Open the shutter all the way. Motion blur. Skip the bleach process in developing the film. I don't, and I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there maybe.

But I just remember. Maybe it's just the open shutters. It just means that instead of like the motion blur is what makes something that like moves across the frame quickly. If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing. And when you roll those with 24 frames, it gives you the illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shut-ups so you get much more light,

each frame takes a super sharp picture. And when you run those together, like the piece of dust goes, and so the mortar explosions are going like, and you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing, you know what I mean? And it's just, and nobody had ever done it.

It's just a master of the thing who understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea. And that's just masterful. Like that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go, well, it's Spielberg. Yeah.

That's how you do it. That's, like you say, one of those things, a guy that's passionate and also, you know, caring about something, you know, it's with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness. Yeah.

And it's, I think, why we love to see that, whether, you know, sports, fucking, you know, fighting, or whatever it is, there's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that person when you go, fuck, like, when you see Michael Jordan, like that there was that whole movie that we did airs really all about, like, what does it mean to be great?

And how does it, like, touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve their own lives because somebody's just better at that thing than anybody else in the world. It's transfixing, you know? I mean, I find that really fascinating. Like, you know, people who are great at something and the mystery of like, well, what does that like,

and what does that do to your life? And how did you get that way? And what does it take, you know? And what's the cost? Because to truly be great at something, you have to kind of almost abandon everything. I've seen that in various ways, like in that kind of just empirical's personal study.

I haven't seen anybody who I think qualifies for that who didn't also seem to be really suffering. A hundred percent. And you're like, damn, you should be so happy. You're the greatest. And the, you know, interviewers always, how do you feel right now? And there's that sense that like either it's never finished or it's never enough or they can't enjoy it or they're carried.

So the line we put in air where it's like, you have to be that thing. You have to be that thing. You know, like it's a kind of a bird too in a way. 100%. And I just see that. And that's why we want these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know, you know, flourish, have their life and have it all in hand. There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too. And I, it's, yeah, it's like you said, there seems to be a real call.

Well, there's always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things. And the obsession that you have to be the best at something, you have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else. You have to have a single-minded focus. And that comes with the cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships, you feel like a piece of shit. And you see that up close and like that's not admirable. Right. You don't give a fuck about anybody else? No, I do.

I just care about this more. You know, it's like, so imagine that. You're making the sacrifices and it's causing injury to people and you know it. And you don't want to hurt them, but you can't help it. And you're getting rewarded for it. You know, it's complicated. Yeah. It's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationship.

Right, right. Maybe that's why I say, don't meet your heroes. There's something to it, man. There really is. But it's just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. There's a thing that hits you and likes you and like that. you up where you want to do more, you want to be better, you want to, whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do do, you become more, whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah, it lights you up. And it's the fuel that we all live off of that consumes, like we consume to make our culture move forward. Yeah. You know. And so there's like a sacrificial element to it, the people that do it and we all feed off of it, you know? And it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it. You know?

Right, right. But in great filming, how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films? Like, when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out. And I saw it and immediately ran around the block. I've never won in my life. I was eating raw eggs. I was like, I'm like, this is going to change my life. There's things that happen when you see something truly great that it makes you want to be better as a human being.

I remember where I was when I was. saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the movie. Watch that movie. I remember leaving, I was 19-year-old. I thinking, I want to be a better man. I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen this actor do and the way, you know, that was the only real conscious thought I had,

but I remember having it and kind of being surprised by it, you know. And it does. That shit can, you know, it's really touched me, you know, a lot of fucking people's work. And that's why you get that, like, you know, you see people, and you want to let them know, you know what I mean, and tell them, and I always think people come to go,

oh, hey, I love that movie. I always feel like, ah, you don't have to say that. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. It makes me kind of uncomfortable, and I don't ever, like, put myself in with those figures who I think are like, oh, but there's these towering giants who have done this, you know,

I don't know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I arrived to a place where it was like, there was a couple of people who said, oh, I saw a goodball hunting. It made me want to go out to Hollywood and write a script. And I think, oh, shit, I don't know how about that's all. You know what I mean? Like, sorry, man. Like, you know, a certain point I figure, okay, you know what, whatever it is, like, great. That's the thing the cost of your fame, you know, that you have to, there's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you and they want to say those things to you. And, like,

wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those things. Right, exactly. Which is so counterintuitive. You think like once you become really successful, you make a bunch of great things, it's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you. Like, no, no, no. I'm doing something else right now.

And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your fucking life. And also I can't be satisfied or take any fucking joy in that because I don't think I'm good enough. I need to fucking, you know what I mean? Right. Never satisfied. Yeah. You can't.

And that's the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied. You see in a lot of the fighters, the same. kind of thing, the great, great fighters? Well, also, fighters have a very small window of greatness. There's, there's only like a certain amount of years where you can burn the RPMs at the red line,

and then eventually the knees go, the back goes. Is it earlier than other sports? It must be, yes. I think so. Because, like, Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now. I bet he, you know, how old's Tom now? He's probably, 47 or eight now, probably, yeah. I bet he could still play.

Yeah, I mean, but that's a, yeah, I mean, that's a very specific skill position. and the way he played it. Right, but running back, no. Right, right, right. But at... Cornerback. The elite levels of MMA,

especially with USADA testing and, you know, and now drug-free sport testing, when they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone and all these different things, like you have nine years. You have nine years at peak performance. That's legitimate. How long's John Jones been going?

John Jones is a freak of all freaks. Because John Jones beat Daniel Cormeier when he was on Coke. That was one of the funny things he said in the press conference for the rematch. Daniel was talking shit. He goes, I beat you when I was on Coke. I mean, he was getting arrested. He was partying. When he fought Gustafson, he beat Gustafson, and he didn't train at all.

I talked to his trainer. He's like, he didn't even show up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He was never training. He could just show up and beat everybody's ass. I saw a thing on my Instagram feed of a fighter, and I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight. And he goes, I had the chance to spar with John Jones,

to work with John Jones. And he goes, I, you know, I knew about it months ahead of time. He goes, I got every, my nutrition. Everything was absolutely flawless. I got, you know, my sleep. Everything was on. He goes, I show up at the gym that morning. He goes, to me and five other guys.

He goes, he comes in, I think he went to sleep at four in the morning or something. He was out all night. and he goes, he ran through all six of us. That's my buddy Brendan Shaw. Is that who was? Okay, yeah. It was the funniest story. And he goes, and then I just knew, you know.

Yeah, there's levels. That's a level. But imagine it's being that elite and realizing there's another level. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight and John wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. It was a lower weight class and he just beat everybody's ass.

And he said, this was his warm up. He just kidding And just fuck everybody up I mean he has a unique aptitude for MMA but also he had two brothers That were super athletes Yeah Played for the Patriots

And so these guys are super athletes And so they're beating the shit out of each other All the time So they're like constantly in competition With elite athletes From the time he was a child So he was just so Tuned into competition

And he was so intelligent Like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's and he would study tape meticulously. Well, that, that, that spinning kick that he did to that, steep amyocchio where he, where he said he, and I think he thanked his taekwondo coach, and he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides. Yeah. Because of something he saw on the tape.

And he got it off and hit this guy so hard. Not even on his liver side. He hit him on the other side and you see it shutter through his entire, like, organ structure. Yeah, his meal was deep into his body cavity, like, all the way up to his fucking spine. But he had, but he, he, he just practiced this one specific, and he was like, and he even said, he goes, it is a devastating shot.

Like, yeah, there's not a human being who could take that. No, it's like getting hit by a car. Yeah. Because when you, when you do it. But getting hit by a car in one spot in your body, you know what I mean? The size of a foot. Yeah, size of 13 foot. Oh yeah, here it is.

Watch this. He sets them up. Boom. It's just It's like, yeah, no, it's over, it's over. And this is John moving up to heavyweight Because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore He decided to become a two-division champion.

I mean, John was a freak. You see it rummed through? And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing Because he caught him with a bent leg. Right, right. It wasn't even fully extended, which, you know, was even more devastating. But John realized that as a heavyweight

he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight. And so he said the most powerful kick is a spinning back kick, so I'm just going to work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out

with one shot. Wow, okay. That's just the... It's not just the physicals if he's also like a genius. Oh, he's a genius. Well, he's also like... He's the most meticulous

when it comes to game planning and study. He will not take a short-notice fight. Even a guy that he could fucking beat any day of the week. You can wake him up at 3 o'clock in the morning. He can fuck that guy up. He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp

to prepare for that fight. Well, it's just, you know, greatness. But John's troubled, you know. John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy shit. And he's, you know, he's a wild fella. And, you know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure, has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life. But, you know, when he knocks Depe out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world, like, for that moment, he's on top of the world. You know?

But then, again, it's like the same thing. as soon as you get back, like, what's next? You know? There's another challenge. There doesn't matter how many people love you now. Like, it's not good enough. There's someone else looming. You've got to beat this guy.

That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the, like, complete compulsion to have to get to the next level. And the next level keeps fucking moving the goalposts. I'll never forget. I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost a BJ Penn. He lost the Walterweight title to BJ Penn. And I'm interviewing him. inside the octagon he said i'm going to be honest with you

it was actually a relief and he goes the pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so ever in the whole world chasing you he goes i'm going to be on i thought it was an incredibly brave moment for a guy to say that who is you know just this fucking amazing human being this warrior to say i just got to be honest it's a relief

losing my title feels like a relief and i was like wow like that that is so so brave to be that honest in front of the way because everybody's like you just got your ass kicked. It's like I'm, this is a relief. You know, I took a burden off my bag. I'll be back. I'm going to regroup but I needed that. I needed

to just step off the fucking top of the hill for a little while. Jesus Christ. You've got to be like a great actually relief to be able to say something nice that's kind of a gift. Instead of I feel like you gotta hide or pretend it and go yeah, I'm like it was a lot to carry and I, you know. Well the thing about fighting

is everything you try to hide gets exposed you're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these round will they take like sorry by uh I was here yeah yeah smoke up they're taking like

you know five guys and they're rotating them in with you so you're doing five rounds with fresh guys so you got one guy who is fucking warmed up getting you know getting ready for you and then you're fucking out of breath they'll give you a 30 second break

instead of a minute and then they're throwing in these monsters and you know you're You're getting beat in training. You're getting smothered in training. You're exhausted. You know, you're always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them. You got to hit them and then they've got to figure out where the limit is. And okay, next week we're going to do one extra round. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. We're going to do more strength and conditioning. We're going to push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So you're always breaking. You're always at the point where you can do no more because it's the only way to get. And you can only maintain that. Like the condition. that they get in when they step into the octagon, it's not possible to maintain that. No, right, right, right. You can only get to... You have to aim at that one moment.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have to peek, and then if you fuck up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do, just because they're such savages and they never want to leave the gym, then they don't peak right, and then they come in and they're exhausted, and they didn't recover properly, and then in between rounds, they're too tired, and they can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up. That happens, too.

I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain. Oh, God. in an actual championship. And you realized you're, there's no, you can't bounce back. And this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches and you can't get out of the way anymore. Do you think, who was it? Was it Habibu said that they should just do 25 minute? Oh, a lot of people said that.

I mean, that's a, what? Is this songs and playing? What's going on? That little theme song going on there. The Teske brothers playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. Sorry about that. Well, Hoyce Gracie always said that.

Like, that was how he fought in the early days. They just straight 25 minutes. Because he was like, look, he goes, if we're on the ground, it goes, I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds. And he goes, I need time to cook them. That's what he would say. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's what jiu jihitsu is all about. Jiu jitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted. And, you know, and then they eventually finish you. Like a, like a, you're just fucking constricted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's the real, that's, but, you know, there's this balance of, like, making it interesting for this, for people to watch. I've been a proponent of no stand-ups, don't ever stand anybody up when a guy takes you down.

Like, you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it. So you should never get stood up in a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing. If he's holding you down and you can't get up, that's how it should be. So it's more realistic, but it's the balance of it being a sport. People want to watch. Yeah, making it, because people get, when people grab someone to take them to the ground, nothing happens, people go, boo, you hear it in the audience,

and then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up, and I'm always like, ah, don't stand them up. I never thought of it that way that the beginning of the round starts it to the advantage of the... Always, always, always. You're in a position you didn't earn. You never got back up. You know, I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round, because it's one fight, it's not five fights.

Right. So if you start it standing up at the beginning of each round, that's a new fight. Yeah, right. In a way. No, you're pitching, like, how quickly would the UFC go out of business? Real quick. 30 seconds, they're on the ground, and then it's 24 and a half minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible business.

I would give the fighters more money. I would fuck up the whole business model. I would get rid of the cage. I would have them all fight in a basketball court. Just put mats on the ground in the basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage. I think the cage gets in the way. It becomes a way to get back up because you press your body.

back up against the cage, you can use it to stand back up again. And you're in the middle of the center of a mat, it's very difficult to get back up. And that's realistic. Right. You know, you're using a foreign object to help you perform. Yeah, right. Yeah. But, you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage, and it's like, they lock you in there, clings, cage match.

Yeah. It's just, but I mean, in terms of, like, inspirational performances and things that you, when you see, like, the human spirit elevated to the highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three fucking months and then the referee's like, are you ready?

Are you ready? Let's go. And it's like that moment. Like is, it's not like anything else in all sports. I think that's the moment that like people show up for. Yeah. Because they build the intent. It's the same with like the old Tyson fights or whatever. Like now it's going to happen.

Yeah. And there's there you can't help I have that feeling once it, you know. And yeah, some fights end up being disappointing, whatever, but that moment is always there. Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness because, like, you could dedicate your whole life. You could fucking get up in the morning at the right time.

You could eat all the right foods. You could do all the right training. But then you see that fucking guy. You just got a smoke. There's nothing I can do. I have no chance. You know, by looking at him, so he had just a look in his eye.

It was one of the only fighters where you just see the other guy. was scared. Yeah. Usually they at least hold himself together where they come off like, oh, I don't know, this guy looks pretty tough. Guys would fight Tyson and just would start and they'd feel that moment too.

Oh shit. They're letting this tiger out and here he comes. And it was like... Well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime and those fights were like executions. You didn't want to pay for the pay-per-view because he was so fast.

I swear, I mean, Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife and she was crying. And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring. And she got, by the way, for good reason, like, this man might kill my husband. Right. You know what I mean? We're certainly going to beat the fuck out of him.

And she knows it. And the world knows it. And the guys were ready to quit. Remember that dude, a hurricane or whatever? White kid who fought him. He's McNeely. His guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in. He had it ready.

Like, you know what he was ready to go, all right, that's it. The bell rings. He picks up the towel. You got one job. Save your guy's life. You know what I mean? McNeillies fucked now, too. When you hear him talk, it's rough.

It's rough to hear. Oh, really? Yeah, I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the dark side of the sport of MMA and of fighting. You know, you talk. Like, I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious 16 times. Jesus, guys.

Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like, holy shit, man. And he seems normal. Like, he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now, when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words and they're still fighting. Right. And their words all mumbled together.

Like, you have no. idea how much they're struggling. Yeah, yeah. Like, and they're going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life. It's not going to get better. It's going to get way worse because the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after the injuries. That's what it really sets. Really?

It just keeps astrophied. I mean, there's some therapies that they can do now. There's, uh, they, they do, and Knoxville did some of it, like this magnetic therapy that they do that restimulates neuron growth and, and oddly enough, mushroom. Like psilocybin has been shown to regenerate... Mushrooms all of a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit. I know. Well, probably always has.

Yeah, right, yeah. You know? All of a sudden, they're acknowledging it, yeah. Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers. Because it's always been kind of like a left-wind thing to be into psychedelics. But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs blowing up and IEDs and concussions. And the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics. So it's kind of like in Texas, former governor Rick Perry has started the Ibegain initiative.

So they're using Ibegain to help all these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president. Oh, really? Yeah. Remember when he sank Ed Muske's. What is Ibegain? It's from the Oboga tree. And it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational. It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you. You see where all your problems come from.

You see where all of your emotional hitches are. Jesus. Yeah. And with addictions, it has an 80%, I think it's 84% with one treatment. They quit whatever they're hooked on. What? Not only that rewires the brain. So the physical pathways to addiction, like someone who's stick to opiates, gone.

completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore. So with one treatment, 80 plus percent of people, that's incredible. With two treatments, it's in the 90s. That's amazing. It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you know, since like 1970 in this country. The sweet thing psychedelics out.

He said Rick Perry has like a clinic or whatever that's. But Rick Perry, because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worth a lot of veterans that, you know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man. He realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelics. And so he started getting behind this I Begin initiative. They passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and they're going to do it with police officers. And I mean, police officers experience more PTSD. Like I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin and he said, and he was also in the military.

And he said, what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer. Really? He goes, I was seeing death and violence on a daily basis. He goes, when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're going to see some horrible shit, but you're going to see some horrible shit mixed in. you know, over a course of time where, you know, you go out and things go live. It goes like every day. Every day you're going directly

to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life. And every day you're pulling someone over and they might shoot you. Like you have no idea. You're pulling up to tinted windows. You don't know what the fuck is going on. You're running the plate. The license is expired. You have no idea who's in the car. You don't know anything. And you've seen all the videos. We've all seen videos of cops getting shot down like when they're pulling over a car.

all seen it. And so these guys are living with this fucking PTSD all the time. And then they have to live in real life. They're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor. And their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos. And Ibogaine has been very beneficial for those people to just sort of come down and try to find the root of all this stuff and get them off pills and get them on the straight. That's great. Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Well, Ibegain, because during the presidential elections, he started spreading these rumors. And it's in the documentary. What is that documentary? Is it fear and loathing? Gonzo. That's right. In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it. So,

he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett. And he goes, yeah, he goes, there was a rumor running around that Ed Muske was on Ibogaine. And I knew about it because I started that. I started. rumor. But he made the guy, so he sold it to him. So the guy completely cracked. So like this guy was like a frontrunner for the president and he fucking completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs. Because Hunter S. Thompson was just running around like saying there's just

Brazilian witch doctors who are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy shit. That's great. They were like and Hunter would know. Yeah. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine too because Ibrahimine is like. it's not a recreational

drug and it's not a drug of addiction it's literally a drug that stops addiction he was the guy that would have the full the whole book's full of these esoteric drugs you never heard of that you mention really casual way of course four of us stopped to get Ibogaine at the one gas station that sold between needles

and nothing else big yeah sure no of course you do yeah but it does help people that have brain damage as well it's supposed to like cause some sort of neuroregeneration yeah yeah just there's stuff out there they're going to help people, but a large percentage of these fighters are silently

suffering, and we don't ever hear about it. They say, like, it's supposed to be that it's, like, the argument is because it's, you know, they're not using a glove, like, that football is supposed to be, I mean, wasn't that the sort of rationale that, like, you were going to have less impact in boxing because the boxing gloves? No, but it's, remember, it's all, it's like the sub-concussive blows. It's like it's not necessarily the one-shot knocking you out as much as the repeated kind of like small

like little bit of brain I'm sure that's like they're all bad for you you know what I mean like a version knocks to the head or not a good thing you'd be avoided

yeah well it's also what you take in training too we're only considering what happens during a fight if a guy has 40-50 MMA fights that's 40 how many rounds does he have

right in the gym oh training camp is fucking brutal and depending upon how intelligent your camp is like some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other

hard and then maybe one day of the week they go live but you do it with trusted you know they're they're very close to you these are people that you care about and love so they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose but sometimes not like sometimes you're in a hostile gym and you know you got to spar with people you don't even know they're from other countries you have a big name they're trying to take you out you know it's but the the amount of damage these guys take I mean I don't know if football's better or worse they're all the thing about football is the big impacts are way worse because when you've got a 300 pound super athlete

that's fucking full tilt all the way from across the thing. Boom! I mean, it's like... Running start. Yeah, you're getting hit by a truck. And that, but that doesn't... It's not targeted necessarily at your head.

So it's like what is better and what is worse? You know, boxing's bad. You know, it's like... You have less options. MMA's slightly better because if, especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down beat them up on the ground, but it's ultimately, you're paying a price. A hell of a tough way to make a fucking living, sure.

Yeah. But for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the fucking 16,000 people are on their feet screaming, there's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it. And those guys chase that high their entire life. And then after it's over, they, you know, they feel oddly detached. Right. Nothing ever rises to that level again. Right. You can make films until you're 100 years old. You know, you can make great films. forever you can do the thing that you love forever they have a little window a little window that's a really tough thing about being an athlete like i you were talking to pete sampras that time we met samper some years ago and he was like we were probably i don't know how we were 30 he was

30 something like that and he was kind of we were like oh my guy you know he had all these fucking you know wins and grand slams and he he had it kind of vaguely like yeah he was like yeah you guys i'm about to retire it's i'm finished and we're you know young guys were you know just getting started you know what I mean like we're also the thing is you get better at your job the more you do it yeah you know and so it's that thing with the athlete yeah i was having this conversation the other day it's like you have all the physical skills at the beginning but you become a better you know better at your sport yeah you know as your skills are declining the body just doesn't want to do it anymore you've got to just come it's like become gregg maddox you know and compensate with all the tricks and

location and but that's why that drama of like the aging athlete is so powerful. We still have it. It's like, oh, do we still have it in me? Can I still do it? How long, you know, is what I've learned enough to compensate for what I've lost, you know? Well, there's an interesting story about Vitor Belfort. So Vitor Belfort was he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old. That was like the first event I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, And he was like one of the all-time greats, for sure. But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy.

And boy, did he fucking use it. Okay, because I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels. And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy. And people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years because he was fucking terrifying. because he has the mind of a veteran, an incredible amount of experience, but now his body is moving like a 25-year-old. And so he was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire. So they're not allowed to use testosterone?

No, they can't use anything? No. No, how about peptides? Can they use peptides? Nope, not even peptides. They're trying to take that and reform that. But there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do. I mean, all it's allowing you do is soft tissue injuries, heal quickly.

and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones. So instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally. And it just makes you more healthy. For a very unhealthy job where you're, you're getting hurt all the time, it's going to be better for the sport, better for the athletes, to allow them to all use it. And it's also, there's no long-term damage that's going to do, like,

steroids where it shuts down your endocrine system. So I hope they reform it. But the idea was that there's so many fucking loophole and so many people cheat. Big camps used to hire scientists. So they had a scientist on staff that was not only procured. He'd do. Yeah, exactly.

Not only procuring stuff that would slip by the test because there's like, you know, the Balco stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through. And there's a lot of experts that have, like, one of the things is animal-derived testosterone. So testosterone, they use a carbon isotope test, I think, I believe that's what they use, to figure out where the testosterone came from. So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios. They go, well, no, it all seems likely. He's just, he's an outlier.

He just has naturally high testosterone. But testosterone that you get from, like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam. Believe it or not. Really? Yeah. It's not animal-derived testosterone. testosterone. So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine. You can determine that it's a yam-based testosterone. It's exogenous, not endogenous.

It's a yam in there fighting. It's not him. But if they can figure out a way to, and there's a lot of proof of concept of this, can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources? Bold testosterone. Something like that. Well, the torrine. They used to inject Hitler with torrine. You know, Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on them. And one of the things they did was like inject them with bold testosterone. and stuff to try to keep them virile. Yeah. But there probably are athletes right now that are using some shit that they haven't figured out yet. So give them any loopholes at all. They're like, no, no, no, fucking no loopholes. No IVs, no nothing.

No IVs. No vitamins and. Right. But the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and mask steroids by over flooding the body with liquids. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then when you piss, you piss. Hot, hot, because, like, you add more water.

Yes, you would just fill them up with saline, and then when they go to piss, like, nope, clean. Look at the ratio. Because it's like so much water is being processed through the body that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask it, especially with, like, things that you would add to the IV. So there's no, you can. It's only food and approved supplements through, like, really high-level labs, like Thorne, like Thorne supplements where it's third-party tested. So they can't do anything. But for a while, they let them do it.

And those TRTVTor days were my favorite fights to watch. Did they stop doing it fighting because they thought it was like advantageing certain people? Or they should happen that they're like, this is fucked up. Well, look at the difference. That's TRTVTor on the left, and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it. Look at the difference. Jesus. I mean, that's fucking stunning.

On the left, though, dude, that motherfucker was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me, he goes, dude, when I, stood next to him at the fucking wands. He had muscles on his teeth. He goes, this fucking dude was so jacked. He was so scared. I was like, what the fuck is he on? Because he knew he was on something.

It's just, it's cheating. It really is. Because you can jack your levels way above a normal human beings. Because that's what a lot of guys, there was a few fighters that were pulled from cards. Because like, say if a really high levels, like 1,100, they were testing like 18, 1900.

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They were like a science project You had different species And they were insane confidence Insane confidence Because they were essentially like a raging gorilla They were just insanely confident And just it's just so fired up They couldn't wait to smash somebody

Because they were just fucking maniacal They're a berser You know so you It's not a person anymore Now you're a science project It's not you know There are rare outliers who like Tyson When he was in his prime

It's rare physical specimens and like that's part of the game, but that's God. You know, that's nature. This is not, you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't allow them to do anything anymore. And that's why. It's because too many, and Vitor was one of the guys that tested like way over the line. And then they just decided. But that's what they're going to do.

If you say it's legal, they're just going to take as much as possible. Some of those are good. More is better. And, you know. Yeah, if you say, oh, you did one CC a week. They're like, I heard five. I heard five CCs. And these guys are just training five times a day.

And they never get tired and they recover like that. So, and they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because they heal like you're a fucking six-year-old. Right. You know, you just, your body just like. You're like fucking Wolverine. Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about peptides, too, the Wolverine stack.

BP-157 and TB-500. I don't know if you ever get injured. If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP-157 and TB-500. I didn't hear about TB-500, what's that one? Thymocin beta-500. Oh, yes. In conjunction with BPC-157. it is a fucking phenomenal stack

and it just really helps injuries. I didn't know they call it the Wolverines. That's what they call it the Wolverines stack. Because you fucking heal incredibly well. Like it quickly. I was talking to a pro football player. He pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude, I shot that shit right into my hamstring

for two weeks and I was right back on the field. I was like, that's nuts. I go, what is the normal rehab? He goes, three months. He goes, in two weeks, I was back on the field. I go, what the fuck? He goes, I don't know how bad the injury was. He goes, but to me it's like, fuck.

I pulled my hamstring. I'm fucked now for every. X amount of days. He goes, and two weeks later, I was playing full tilt. Wow. I'm like, that's nuts. And going right into the area of the injury. Right into it. Some people think you don't have to do that.

They think it's, you know, systemic. So you just, like, stick it in your fat on your side. But he's like, no. And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local. Shoot it locally into the area. And it just has just. Like cortisone or whatever. What is the?

Yeah, cortisone. But cortisone just masks it. That numbs it or whatever. Not only that, it has a tendency if you do it too many times. times to weak intendants. Yeah. Yeah. And so it could actually exacerbate the problem because it takes away the pain.

Right. Yeah. It takes away the pain. But, I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year. I know. My friend had that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should just do the drug Olympics for cash.

He goes, do it in Vegas for cash. And then the enhanced games games. They're doing it. They're doing it. They're doing it. Yeah. And it's just like, all bets off. I'm down.

I love. Let's see what a human beings do. That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs, it was one of the most exciting times of baseball. It was pretty exciting. That's why they didn't do anything.

They knew it wasn't a fucking mystery to anybody. Right. But Avery's tuning in. The Bash brothers, they had baseball on a strike. You know, they almost fucking destroyed that league, and then people started watching. Yeah, they brought it back.

Yeah. And then Bonds is like, well, these two fucking guys are hitting this many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball, which he was. Yep. And when he did it, it lights out. Yeah.

You know what I mean? He had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times. 162 games. Three and a half that's a game. Only swung and missed. I mean, that's just, you know. And, yeah, McGuire would get like just like move his wrist to get the ball out of the park. And it was like, it was fun to watch.

And when people say like steroids don't make you a better athlete. Oh, they don't make you a better athlete. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you're fucking Barry Bosnia. If you're already an elite athlete, yeah, it makes you. If you let John Jones do all the juice he wants, he'd be fighting until he's 50 and fucking people up. If you say, John, we've really come to our senses. Like, this sport's all about excitement.

I want to give the people what they want. Let people make informed choices based on their own discretion. Oh, it's like that. Welcome back. Then it all of a sudden, John looks like Vitor in that picture. He'd be undefeated. By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in his prime. And Vitor caught John in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyper-extensive.

and then popped it, went backwards. You can see the video of it. His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't tap and then beat him in the next round. With one arm. Yep, one arm. His arm was fucked for like a year after that. Yeah.

Give that man some steroids. Let's see what he can do. Steroids. Let him be the king of the world. Yeah. The dream team, it's like, you know, the first time the pros went to the Olympics, whatever the year's 90s? Oh, yeah. Won every game by 70 points.

Yeah. It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. The argument for that made sense, though, because, like, these other people are being compensated in their countries. Oh, yeah. I had no problem. And, by the way, now it's got more of that last Olympic championship was, that was a great game against France. That was fabulous, you know? I mean, yeah, they're going to wreck some smaller countries and stuff.

But, okay, you're playing pros. They're playing pros. The whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit, like, you know. Yes. People find, like, a convenient definition of it according to what's their... You see in college sports is changing and stuff. Like, look, I got no problem if you're going to apply the rules evenly. But sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse to, like, for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV deal.

No, no, no, you guys, you're getting an education. Right. It's like a little bit like, yeah, you're in education. You guys make a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play. Exploitation. Yeah. And I'm glad they've changed that with college sports because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats. And they deserve that money.

And not even when I'm just going to be in the NFL. Right. You know what I mean? Some of them are also to make that fucking money. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard. It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there.

It's constant. Constant. Yeah. And the metrics for the, it's like, what is it, a two and a half year career or something? To average. Yep. Depending on your position. But, I mean, it's such a long-term.

That seems just fair and obvious. You pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college, but not to like, you know, come on. Well, that's a great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body, like acting. Yeah. You can kind of do it forever. You know? Keep going until you lose it. You know what I mean? It's really, yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive aspect and it's a lot, you know, but like, okay, great.

If you get a willing to bet on yourself and then the expectation is, well, I got to do something that's interesting enough that people want to watch it. Well, that's the proposition anyway. How do you guys decide, like, on projects that you choose? Like, I'm sure you have so many options now. Like, what makes you say this is what I'm going to spend the next six month doing? It's really, I mean, there are a bunch of different factors. like the director is being the most important one. But if you read a script and like we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts

and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that if we read something and it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you know, you get that kind of emotional. Something happens when you read it. You go, okay, well, then you pay attention to it, maybe read it again, go, wait a minute. But, you know, if it moves you in that way, then, you know, ultimately the big decision is saying yes, because you're going to spend. Yeah. It's the last point of which you have total control. Right.

You know, and then you're in. Then you're in. And you're in whether it's good or bad. I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew a month into a six-month shoot that, like, this is not going to work. And that is, that is the fucking worst. What is the worst, man. It is, I came to think of that. It happened to me.

You're going to shoot us all when it comes out. Yeah. Okay. It's like, it's all bad. It's like, it's going to be 80, 16 hour days in a row. And then a post-production period that's going to be pretty fraught. And then it's going to come out and we're going to get fucking crushed. And then you're going to have to sell it.

You're going to have to walk the fucking plank and sit down with access. You know what I mean? Like, so. Saw the movie. How important is that stuff still? today, like the press stuff. Is that still important? It is.

I don't know to what degree each specific thing is. It's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today. I was like, doing this show, it would be more meaningful than the rest of the shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie. Like we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the quick ones with all the outlets. 105 minute interviews, all the evening shows, the day shows. Yeah, all that stuff. and this, just given how many people listen to the show, will be more meaningful.

But we think, I mean, that's our, we were speculating. Historically, right, if you look at it, because they've changed to like, all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a stick and you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing, it looks great. And nobody cares.

Like they're looking to go, either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is, And a trusted person is in like your, like you said, your feed, right? And it's your friend or your cousin. Or they affix that to somebody, which has become a more rare thing, like who's a, like a legitimate neutral arbiter, right, who I can't predict what they're going to say before I go there. There are a few of those, fewer and fewer of those people in the world, even those are proliferation of more and more voices.

And it's kind of paradoxical, like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and short and shorter. So you're like a seven-second, you know, we're an advertising company. We do most of the spots that we realize, like 15-second spots, six-second spots for social the ones that most people see. And then there's this one form, which is like long-form discussions that are, whatever, two hours long. And the amazing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people

to pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form, and that's why, you see, these are getting more popular. obviously have this massive audience. And it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend. And I think, and I don't know, that it probably has something to do with, like, who do I think is authentic? And am I actually going to willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through? And that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth, they're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of give that sort of voice to in their life.

It's also the voice of the public too because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people just start like saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that, it just takes off organically now. And that has more weight than anything. If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, hey, this is great, you should see it. I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody tell me, like, you know, who I respect, yeah, you got to see that thing. That means more to me than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if the closer you can get to that, which is why I think the act of, A, like, telling the same, you know, like, telling the same, like, story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain, like, limited reach.

It's just, it's just not that efficient, but you have to because it's like, well, we sat down with our own, and Frischer Anaka and talked about the movie, you know, and you kind of. I do that, ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that market. But I think ultimately it's like more and more people realize they're being sold to, see through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit of it. They recognize that, you know, you go out and sell every movie. You know what I mean? The good and the bad. And then we got to decide, well, which one.

And who can you count on? Well, it's mostly going to be that like the word of mouth, your friend. And now you can see that person in your media experience, you know? Yeah. And I think it's also, we know. know that when you're sitting down with extra or all these things. Like that's just their job to sit down with people. They're not doing it because they want to.

Right. You know? It's like, they got told. Yeah. Exactly. And we got told, go talk to them. Yeah. Exactly.

Go do the ritual. Yeah. And they say the thing they say and we say the thing we say. And everyone goes home and says we did our job. That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like, like, like, with me, if I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to. It's just like I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go, oh, yeah, that sounds cool.

and that's it. But like that, I think, means a lot. This person is making this choice. And I've listened to it a bunch and I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of the time. So, all right, I'd give it a shot. That, you know, it's exactly. I think also, like, this format, like, at least I know why it,

why I started listening to podcasts was because in the world, like the divisive kind of the way everybody was talking, these sound bites and all this shit. And it was just like the ability to just listen to human beings. talk often who did who did who had different points of view but like had a civil conversation yeah was like was such a welcome thing you know given the given the kind of the hysterical kind of you know uh frenzy of of of of divisiveness that's kind of it just feels it's just like you know the it's like if i open my phone and look at the news i find it's like fuck yeah it's like

put it down it's it's it's like uh i feel my cortisol level go up and to actually hear people, listen to people I know I don't agree with, but listen to them and just think about it. You know what I mean? I mean, approach life with a little bit of humility. Hold on to what you believe, obviously, but keep listening. It's also, there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people.

So people are kind of starving for that. I know. It's funny that this has become the shared cultural, like we listen to that podcast and then actually experienced that. And also, why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that because they compress it and because the truth, it's money. Because actually doing that's not with money.

It's just ratings and the perceived idea that like, well, if you simplify it or you position it one way that you engender outrage, that's simple or just, you know, pure one-sided ideas that are simple. You know, but the news used to be,

the idea was, look, here's the FCC, we're going to let these networks, their shows and make money on it. But here's the deal. You got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively. Then it started to be, no, you got to make money for that hour too. And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than tell the truth or reporters or any of those things and people try to hybridize them. But at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more. And then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data, you know,

grand what are people watching what kinds of stories and and i think this is simple answers because you're just you're making it into a profit game those incentives are not aligned with just trying to get down to like even reporting basic facts yeah it's a weird time it's like we have more access to information than ever before but so much of it is just horseshit yeah you know it's it's hard to stay balanced yeah and i think that's why it's good to like listen to to people just talk yeah and and And then you recognize, like, the flaws in their thinking. You feel ego. You feel deception, bullshit.

It's true. People will reveal themselves. Like, you actually, we actually don't need that many editorialists. Yeah. To be constantly telling us what to think and how to think. People actually have pretty good instincts. You know, if someone's bullshit and you eventually, they'll kind of hang themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe.

After a while, he kind of started repeating his schick. And I kind of didn't really talk about what I was wondering about. You form your own, that's like forming your own judgment. Pete Buttigieg actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts. He's like, because you go on there and you have your points, but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours. Like you can only stick to these lines. Yeah, you can only be talking points and bullshit for then,

and then what happens to people just, like, there was an art to like look at how great that communicator. They stick to the message and they do their points. Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any longer than that, it just starts to look. like a fucking robot on, you know. And like I said, what we need to follow through with the, you know, like, yeah, no, I saw you just the same hand gesture and the same bit with that, but I'm, you know.

Sometimes you find out they're full of shit just by having them talk about other things. You know, like, tell me, do you like cooking? You know, like, just like, and then you just see like some concocted. They're thinking, what makes me look good if, about cooking that I should do. Well, I'll tell you what, because I have a focus group say. That's exactly it. Do I cook or do I not? Does that make me feminine or does it make me open to culturally?

Yeah. What do you like to cook, man? I don't cook. Well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions that they don't have enough time to formulate their own. They're just so concerned with how people are going to perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed. You're like terrified to misspeak. Right, right. I think that in general is a real fucking danger.

I mean, we were talking the other day, we were saying about, like, one of the benefits of getting older and doing this for a long time is you realize, like, nobody really gives a shit as much about you as you thought. You know, you just kind of kind of, nobody's, you spend your 20s and 30s thinking, like, this is really important. And then you realize no one fucking cares. I'm like to come off and what's going to be. No one actually cares. It's not that big a deal. Nobody, nobody cares. Most people are mostly worrying about themselves in their life.

And they, yeah, there's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention or it's in some story or something. It's like you're fucking staring at it because it's about you. Right. You know, you know, like you said that about me, nobody else really fucking... Nobody cares. Yeah. And if they do, they're usually fucked up. Like something's wrong.

Why you concentrate on this other person's life? That's right. You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit. Right. Yeah. Well, listen, man, your movie's fucking awesome. I've loved so much of your films over the years. So it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this.

It's been great. Thanks for having. Two very normal, nice movie stars. You guys are cool as fun Give us a couple more hours Yeah, exactly I enjoyed it And I really enjoyed the rip

It's fucking great And everybody go see it It's great I loved it Thank you Thank you Thanks for being here All right

It's pleasure Bye everybody Bye everybody