The Joe Rogan Experience - #2456 - Michael Jai White

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

Michael Jai White is an actor, director, writer, and martial artist. His latest film, “Oscar Shaw,” is available to stream on digital platforms.www.youtube.com/@RealMichaelJaiWhitewww.patreon.com/MichaelJaiWhitewww.michaeljaiwhite.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visit https://ThreatLocker.com/JRE to learn more Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe Rogan podcast, checking out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. You got a wild card boxing hat on, a Bruce Lee shirt. Come on, son. Hey, we got the yellow and thing going on. Yeah, you got it all going on. What's happened?

It's great to see you. Man, things are really well. This thing is a little loud. Is it? There's a, on that thing there, there's a little volume knob. You can turn that sucker down. There it is. Last time I saw you was at Terry Black's barbecue.

Yeah. Yeah. Random run in. Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy. Yeah, man, I was thinking about going there right after this. I was like, what? Terry Black.

That place was no joke. That place rules. Yeah. Man. Are you still in L.A.? Yeah. Yeah. What's it like?

It's cool, man. Is it? Yeah. You're the only person that said that. No. No. Yeah, well, because, okay, I defend L.A. in a way where, first of all, if you got a handful of good people,

with you. You know? Yeah. Your family. Then it's, sure. So the fact that LA has all kinds of different things,

you could be on a hiking trail in 20 minutes. You could be. Oh, geographically, it's amazing. Yeah. And the weather, you can't. Oh,

you can't beat it. So if you got good people, good friends with you, then it's all good. You just run by crooks. It's a nice neighborhood run by the mob. It's run by the woke mob. But, I mean,

geographically, you can't beat it. You could be at the, ocean and then you can be in the mountains in two hours. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, even if you don't partake, it's still cool. It still amps up the ante, really. Oh, yeah.

Like, the spot itself is magical. It is a magical place to live. Although, I am deeply concerned that that motherfucker is going to get hit with a big one soon. It's about time, right? Yeah. I was reading this article about massive earthquakes. California and how often they're spread out and the possibility of one of them happening within the next decade.

It's very high. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I try not to think about that. I try not to think about it, too. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, and now there's, you can, I think they have better detection of that stuff now, too. It's better.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They can't detect. Do you remember what happened in Italy? a couple guys got arrested and went to jail. They were seismologists because the country, the country, rather, didn't understand the ability to detect it. They had a big earthquake and a bunch of people died. And so they blamed these geologists or seismologists.

They wound up winning in court on appeal because eventually the science was revealed. Like, hey, there's no fucking way you can really tell. But they hung these guys out. They blame these guys on not being able to detect it. Man. Well, I mean, just think about it. The last crazy ones was 72 and then 94? Yeah.

I think it was 93. I came, I moved to L.A. right after the last big one. I saw one of the sections of the highway that had collapsed on the other one. I remember driving by going, fuck this place. I was in the middle of that one. I just, I came into L.A. Oh, you were there?

Dude, I don't even like to tell the story about what happened during that night. 1994 earthquake. Oh. Because it sounds like bullshit. But literally, I got, I got up, ran out of my house, my apartment at the time, jumped off the balcony and watched it happen. You watched the house collapse? I watched the earthquake happen from outside.

Oh. It's like no bullshit. Everybody, so I thought, oh, shit, I overreacted. I had a bad dream. I lived on the first floor of this apartment building. All I know is I wake up. I'm off balance, catching my balance in the parking lot, right? And like, oh, shoot, I got to find the guard to get me back in the apartment building, right?

And I'm thinking, you know, what, what's, like I've lost my mind or something. The next thing you know, everything shakes and the lights go out. Just go, just everything gets black. And so I'm backing, I retreat back because I'm thinking the building was going to fall on me. And I'm like, wait a minute. Then I got the story from everybody else that experienced it. They said that the first thing that happened was the building shook and the lights went out. Well, I was outside watching that.

So I'm outside when it happened, like some kind of can I. So what made you jump over the... I don't know. You had a feeling? Dude. Or did you have like the first rumbles? I thought it was, I thought I reacted to the like some kind of an after shock or some kind of rumble.

No, because the girl that was with me. You left her in the apartment? Dude. All she knows is she said, you jumped up and you ran out of the house. And I heard the door slide. And then the next thing you know, everything shook. She was trapped in there because there was a closet door that trapped her in the hallway. So when I got back in the place, me and a friend had to try to pry the door open because she couldn't get out.

But I ran out of that place before the earthquake actually happened. How weird. Yeah. You got good instincts. I don't know what the hell that was. It has to be. I don't even like telling that story because it sounds like bullshit. Because it really happened that way because then the guard.

I talked to the guard. I'm like, hey, when did the lights go out? Oh, it shook and the lights went out. I'm like, I'm watching that happen. So you felt it happened before it had. happen. Some kind of weird way. Well, I bet humans have that. Animals definitely have that. They talk about Thailand, how they had that tsunami and all the animals ran up to the highest point of the island. They all just took off. It's like they just knew instinctively. I don't know.

Nothing like that has ever happened afterwards. But I got to say, I've been lucky over the years. Yeah, but you're a dude who's tuned in. You're tuned into your body. You're tuned into your environment. you're not going to get caught slipping. Like, you probably felt something and your spidey sense went off. Yeah, I kind of have been like that growing up. Like, I've been on my own since I was 14. Been through crazy shit that you normally would see on movies.

And that's the type of shit that gives you those kind of instincts. But, yeah, and I was always the one that said, hey, let's leave. Let's get out of here. And then, hey, man, there was a shootout. It just happened right after you left. Or I could detect, like, the predators. You know what I mean?

So I grew up kind of that way. Right. Because you have to survive on that. Yeah. Nobody was looking out for you. You had to look out for yourself. Well, yeah. I mean, I was, I was like always the junior of the group a lot of times.

Because, like I said, I've been on my own since I was 14. I haven't grown in since I was 13, 14. I looked like a grown-ass man, right? I was fighting in tournaments at 50. against, you know, grown men, like, you know, fighting heavyweight at that time. But I was always hanging with older people, kind of, you know, kind of like I got away with kind of living as an adult early on. Because, like, you know.

Did you work? Yeah, well, I was teaching a karate class. What was doing, what was happening is he? I used to hang out at this community center in the hood. At this time, I moved from Brooklyn to Bridgeford, Connecticut, right? Bridgeport's a tough name, right? Yeah, yeah. A lot of people don't know.

Yeah, we had the top murder rate per capita, man. Bridgeport's rough. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I was constantly, I mean, there's a community center that was like my haven. And I would go practice with me and my other karate nuts. You know? And so I'd be in the paper for winning heavyweight, you know, competitions or whatever. And so the people that was running the community center said, why don't you teach a class? They thought I was an adult.

Oh, that's hilarious. And so I was teaching like a, you know, like kind of like just under the table. I was getting paid under the table, basically. But I had like close to 200 students early on, like when I'm 15, 16. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. So, you know, it was kind of kind of a trip. You know, which is one of the reasons why I was a father at 15, you know, because I had one of my students' older sister, you know, was like, had a crush on her, her, on his instructor.

But I was kind of living the life of a grown up, like early on. And so, you know, there's a faction of people in Bridgeport who think I'm Satan, I guess, because they think that I'm probably in my 70. he's not you're a vampire right yeah so there's there's some people I had to admit like no I wasn't the age you thought I was back there oh that's crazy yeah but I mean

so yeah you know one of the things I I'm really grateful for is growing up that early and having to you know use my instincts and being that street fighting and fighting was like my favorite thing to do actually and so with When I got into the martial arts deeper and everything else,

you know, I just really, I really dug into it, and wanted to learn style left this style and this, you know, everything. I was just a martial art nerd for it. But I also liked the realistic portion of it, even though I was doing other styles like Wushu and everything else. But, you know, it was actually my haven. Somewhere Eddie Bravo has to find this video. There's a video of us working out together at Legends

where we were talking about hopping sidekicks and different types of sidekicks. And there was a bag that we had that had a shitty chain. But regardless, you threw a hopping sidekick on that chain and the chain snapped and went flying. The bag went flying. And Eddie Bravo was like, what the fuck? It's a funny video, man.

I know Eddie has it somewhere. I'll text him after this. and tried to see if he could put it up on his Instagram or something. Yeah, man. Yeah, back that, man, we were training when it wasn't even popular. You know, I see you in the gym all the time. Yeah. All the time, man.

And you were, just think about this. Do you know it was 29 years ago the last time you interviewed me? Yeah, that's right. 29 years ago. That Bob Costa show. He took a week off and I guest hosted it for a week. Yeah. And at that time, you were already training with Maurice Smith.

Yes, Maurice was one of the guests. Right, you were trying, because I ended up training with Maurice Smith, you know, every time I'd go to Seattle. And, you know, we're, like, part of this, like, kind of karate martial art nerd culture. Yeah. When it wasn't even popular. No. I used to see you all the time. You know, you and, you and, you know, doing jiu-jitsu, Carl Periscan and all these guys are legends.

Where was another place? It was, we had, there was legends and it was another place. The bomb squad? Yes. The Bomb Squad was the first place that Eddie taught at. And then that place closed down. Then we went to Legends. And then we moved to the other legends that was like in Moore East L.A.

And then Eddie started opening up his own place in downtown. Yeah, yeah. And that's where I would train with Josh Barnett at that place quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah, man. Old days. Yes, man. Yeah.

Who would be coming through the gym? Because I was training, I was training Bob's life. tap and one time and then I that's how I got Frankie Lyles connected into that. Wow. Wow. And so I remember Frankie. Frankie used to be at the bomb squad first. Right. Yeah. Frankie was like my best friend in the world and he was, you know, he was super middleweight champion in the world. That's who got me deeply into boxing. And so I would always be at his training camps and, you know, I got to train with like Tommy Hernes and all these amazing people like, show. and all these guys, man.

Frankie's a great boxing coach. He's one of the most technicals, he's one of the most technical guys I've ever worked with. Like, he analyzes every aspect of your jab. He's pulling in your elbow. He's tightening this. He's moving you here. He's like, like, he's showing all the, like, various basic little tiny details that make all the difference in the world.

Yeah, man. He was my, you know, personal boxing coach. You know, I would train with him, Joe Gooseon. early on. But Frankie, I mean, we really kind of combined a lot of things because I start kind of teaching him things with the jab, like the un-telegraph type of stuff. And he started applying that. And he would bring me into stuff and, you know, have me show people like Sugar Ray, like, oh, Mike, explain this, and I'm like, what? I'm explaining this to Sugar Ray. This feels ridiculous, right?

But it was like this combination because, like, I don't know, I'm very analytical, and I love technique, you know. And so I would just try to break things down. And my whole thing was always to pressure test things. You know, so if I could develop a tool or a skill, and you can't stop it even if I tell you what's what I'm doing, then it's a really good technique. Then it's legit. The thing about no telegraph at all, it's so much more effective than a harder strike with a telegraph. Oh, God, yeah. Because it lands.

Yeah. But it's so difficult to teach people that because everybody wants to hit everybody as hard as they can. Yeah. Especially if you have power, your instinct is to fucking to load up on everything. I remember I first saw you teaching that to Kimbo slice. Oh, yeah. You were on a movie set. Yeah, yeah, because Kimbo, oh, man, what a great guy.

What a great guy he was. What a wonderful guy. So that's one thing about fighting. You can't hide your nature. You know what I mean? People see who you are. And he was a wonderful human being. But like a lot of people, almost like street basketball as opposed to, you know, professional.

You miss out on certain techniques that you need when you're trying to step up. Right. And so, like, well, Kimbo, you know, he would, like a lot of people, he would kind of tell. And so when we were shooting the movie, you know, and I basically, we had a cameraman that did not really know how to shoot stuff. So I just had to do everything on screen. And so I would, I would, I just wanted to make everything very realistic. And so, so Kimbo had this rubber knife. And I was like, try your best to touch me with the rubber knife.

And so he would try. But as soon as he would move, there'd be a little bit of an indication that I'd see. And then I throw the punch and it would go really close to him and I'd have him react to that. But he was going, wait a minute, how are you hitting me before I can get this knife out? And then I told him, I'll show you what that is later because, you know, kind of like not to be real nerdish about it. But, like, why are, like, 50- and 60-year-old trainers meeting people's hands, like a 20-year-old guy's or contenders' hands like this? You see the person with the pad moving just as much as the other guy because there's an indication. They do this beforehand.

They're always kind of flexing and going in reverse before they go forward. So just for over years, I wouldn't do that and I would exploit that. You know, so it's kind of like a cheat code that I'm like, hell, what the hell I'm going to do with it? I'm an actor. So my thing is, just like yourself, when I see you, you know, with George St. Pierre and how we're always in the gym, you know, we're kind of collaborating. It's about just getting better, not, no ego or anything. anything else like that, it's just like, hey, man, we're like kind of, you know, kind of like jamming

on technique and getting better. Well, especially if you're wanting to someone who has a different style. Yeah. Because there's always something in different styles that you could take out of it. Absolutely. There's always something. And we're seeing that now. There's all these different martial artists that are entering into MMA that have these

different techniques that people haven't seen before. And there's a lot of them that people dismiss that you're finding are very effective. Especially if you don't know how to do them. You don't know what they are. So you have like a database in your mind of movements. Like I'm sure you see one of the guys loading up on a spin. Oh, yeah. Everybody sees that.

But if you don't know that, you don't see it. Right. And if you, if you are loading up, then you're not going to capitalize on it. Right. Because you don't, you know, you're taking a, there's a millisecond that you're taking because your movement is not efficient. This episode is brought to you by Threat Locker. Here's the truth. Reacting to cyber attacks isn't enough.

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There's a move that still to this day people aren't doing effectively when someone loads up because you could see the load up. And it's just a jam. It's just lifting your foot up and put it on the hips. And it's super effective in Taekwondo because everybody's fast. Everybody's trying to do that technique. but that jam of just lifting your foot up and just not trying to hit them hard, just putting that foot on the hip, it fucks people up. And I don't see anybody using that right now.

I tell you, man, like, as in life, there's always something that you can gain. From the, you know, people want to, I don't know, people aren't their own egos a lot of times. But like, even Wushu, me, is hard as hell for me doing Wushu against guys half my size. It's not against, but it's a purpose. performance thing. Right. But if I can do all of it can go to these very hard techniques of like I got to get down to the floor and I got to body mastery. And my size. Right. Well then I'm better. So if I want to kick you in the eyebrow, I can. Right. Because I'm, it's about, you know, having my body do

what my mind's telling it to. Right. And so, but of course people want to dismiss it because Oh, that ain't real. You can't use it. Yeah, good. Yeah. Just like ballet is hard as hell. You can't use that either. But anybody, any heavyweight who put themselves through ballet would be a better fighter.

100%. Look at Lomachenko. His dad taught him Ukrainian dance. Lomachenko's dad pulled him out of boxing for two years when he was young and said, you're just going to do Ukrainian dance. Yeah. He's like, what the fuck am I doing? But look at that guy's footwork.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So it's just that as in life, man, I don't look at anything from one group and just discard any other stuff. I used to when I was young. Yeah. When I was young, I was pretty arrogant about certain things. I thought forms were stupid.

All I wanted to do was spar and hit the bag. Yeah. Then as I got older, I realized, oh, there's a lot of wisdom and all this shit. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. But, like I say, I try to apply that to life, period. Mm-hmm. You know, I never look at anything from one perspective.

I mean, I grew up in the hood. And I'm, you know, my favorite band is freaking, you know, the Eagles. Really? And yeah, I mean, like, you know, and I'm listening to Jody Mitchell and all. And people are you doing listening? I'm like, what the fuck. You know, this is my life, man. Fuck you.

Like, do you hear these lyrics? You hear Jody Mitchell's lyrics, man? What the fuck? That's all for me, too. I mean, I'm just as passionate about, you know, Errol Smith as I am about the Isley brothers. But I've never looked at life as I have to think in this parameter. You know, I've got to be marginalized.

That's just, man, come on, it's such a waste of life. It is. It's all for you, man. So with the martial arts and everything else, I look at every martial art, just like everything else, everything has something to contribute. Yeah. Just like all people have something to contribute. Even an idiot, you can learn from an idiot. You can.

A lot of idiots say wise things occasionally. Yeah, because everybody's going to have a quotient of legitimacy. You know, maybe it may be 20% and they don't see the 80%. Right. But until you acknowledge that 20%, they're not going to hear you. Right. You know what I mean? So that's the thing.

It's like, man, we're on this planet. And one of the things I mean, I don't envy a whole lot of people, but I do, dude, I do envy you. because you get to expand your world. You talk to so many interesting people. And that's, what a great thing. What a great thing to just have all these type of perspectives and all that coming through. And I got to say, man, I'm super proud of you

because I know you as Joe from the gym and look what you've done, man. Thank you. Man, it's like that, that's a shot in the arm because it's like people that you like and seeing them prosper. That's cool as shit. Yeah, I've learned a lot, man.

And I didn't expect to, you know, when we first started doing this, it was just for fun. We just get together with our friends, you know. You knew what you wanted to do, man. You look pretty damn clear because do you remember this? You remember me coming to, I think it was the Ice House? In Pasadena? No, no, no. Oh, shoot, it wasn't Ice House.

It was in Orange County. Comedy Magic Club, maybe? I came to see you perform and I offered you the role in Blood and Bone. Do you remember that at all? I do. Yeah. Yeah, I do now. Yeah.

Yeah. Because Blood and Bone, which is like actually Sony's most successful non-theatrical, that was basically a kind of a reimagining of hard times with Charles Bronson and James Colburn. Great movie. Yes. Well, that role was basically that I was offering you was the James Colburn role, right? And but you were so, you was dead, and you said, I don't want to do this acting stuff. I want to do, I want to focus on what I, you know, your interest, which was, you know, you stand up and you're getting together.

I mean, I know you and Eddie were doing like kind of the early podcast type of stuff and whatever. And I'm like, man, you know, you really kind of knew what you wanted to do. Well, the thing about acting is, I mean, I admire it, especially good acting. Yeah. But it takes a lot of time out of your day. It's a 16-hour day. It's a long day. And it will take away from other things you do.

And I saw that with a lot of comics that they started doing acting, and it would take away from their act because they really couldn't go and do sets every night. They couldn't really polish their material. You can see the stuff getting a little clunkier. And it's just you got to focus. You got to find the things you enjoy and focus on them. Yeah, that's why I say I'm so proud of just being there

and seeing what you did, you being a part of the UFC when it was nothing promised, you know what I mean? Not only was it not promised, man. People looked at you like you were doing like snuff films or something. Exactly. They looked at, like, I remember the early days, man. Dana White always says this, people who talk to you

like you were doing porn or something. Right, right. Like I was on news radio, the sitcom on NBC, and I was doing commentary where I was doing post-fight interviews for the UFC. And they were like, why are you doing this? Why are you flying to Alabama? and doing cage fights.

See, this is what movies are, good movies are made of shit like this. You know, and somebody just out of their spirit doing what they want to do with no promise of anything and then accomplishing something. So, you know, kudos, man.

Oh, thank you. Seriously, man. Well, for me, and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question, what is the best style? Is it Kiyokashin? Is it judo?

Is it kung fu? What is it? What's the best style? And no one, really knew. I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no rules fights early on, but they never really took off. There wasn't

a lot of those. And Benny was obviously a very special fighter. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was one of my teachers, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I trained at his gym. He was on the podcast with Blinky, Blinky Rodriguez and Pinky, yeah, yeah. Recently, and I told them, I said,

when I came to L.A., there was two places I had to go. I had to go to the Comedy Store, and had to go to the Jets Center. Had to go to the Jets Center. And I was there in 94, right before it went under because the earthquake damaged their roof. Exactly. And so when the rainy season came. It was on Fryer Street, right? Yep, yep, yep.

Right down from the Gusins. Yep, yeah, right down. Yeah. And that was an honor, man, to be able to train in that gym. That was incredible. It was incredible place. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I used to be there.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, those are some great times because, I mean, I connect with Benny. Because when I was in Bridgeport, my instructor, Maddie Malise, went to California and started training with Benny. Oh, wow. Early on. So he put that on the map about coming to the MEPA and training with Benny.

It was the mecca. For kickboxing, especially in the 90s, that was the mecca. You had to go to the Jets Center. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, man, that was. So we were always wondering, like, what is the style? What's the best style? And then the UFC came along.

I'm like, oh, my God, they did it. They did it. They figured it out. They put it all together. And for a while, it was Jiu-Too. because nobody understood jujitsu, and hoist Gracie was just running shit. Well, you know how that was kind of set up a little bit.

It was a little set up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, look, he had some challenges. Like Ken Shamrock was a beast, you know? He had some really good fighters who was facing against. Kimball slice. I mean, excuse me, not Kimbo Slice. Not chemo.

Kimo. Sorry. Kimo was fucking huge. He was a big dude, but, you know, he didn't really. It was a hundred-pound advantage. Yeah. They had 100 pounds over Hoyce. The Gracies were smart.

They were very smart at that time knowing the right people that kind of pick at that time because you know there was some killers out there. There were some killers out there. Yeah, they definitely set it up, especially the early ones.

But it's also, it's like, you know, that was, it was good for us to see a guy like hoist who wasn't jacked. He was a slender guy. He was weighed 175 pounds and he was strangling everybody and arm barring everybody. It was wild to see

when he beat dense Everon, Dan Severin was 260 pounds and hoist tapped him off his back with a triangle. Those are, man, what a story. That put, that put jujitsu on the map. On the map, big time. But, you know, one thing that always broke my heart is people never knew about Hickson. Right. Oh, my God.

I know. That dude. Yeah. That cat was like, I always considered him like pound for pound the best, because he, he, he had this, not only, you know, jujitsu skills, but just his concentration. Yeah. And he was almost like, you know, hypnotic.

Right. You know what I mean? And just no waste of energy. None. Just unbelievable. What an amazing person to watch. I encourage anybody to pull up his fight. Well, he's another great example. David versus Goliath stuff. Oh, yeah. Another great example of cross-training, too,

because Hickson got really into yoga. And everybody's like, what the fuck are you doing yoga? Oh, yeah. Yoga's for girls, right? Hickson got really into yoga and got super flexible and really good at controlling his breathing. Oh, yeah, yeah. And never got tired. Yeah, you saw him in the Hulk? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, it's something, man. That's talk about a legend. Oh, real legend. Yeah, yeah, man. Well, Hickson, there's a video of him, and he did this multiple times, where he would go to these gyms and he would teach a seminar, like a long seminar, and then roll with all the black belts and just tap them one after the other, one out of, world champions. Guys just didn't understand what was going on.

Like, how was this happening? Oh, yeah. Like, Paul Ophelia, when he was a W.E.C. world champion, and he had won the Mondials, I believe. He'd won multiple jiu-jitsu championships. And he trained with Hickson, and he's like, man, it's true. He goes, I can't believe it. He goes, that guy treated me like I didn't even belong in there.

It was crazy. And Hickson, by that time, was probably like 40. Yeah. You know, and it's still just dominating guys on the mat and effortless. It wasn't strength. It was just pure technique and movement. Basics and just mastering of basics. Oh, yeah.

Basics. It was like there's none of the, no barambolos and no ex-guard, nothing crazy. He said everything he did is like jujitsu 101, but to a masterful, masterful degree. It was incredible. And telling people that, you know, because everybody knows Hoyce, and I'm like, do you, you guys don't know who his big brother is. His brother. He would openly say that my brother is ten times better than me. Right, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that really put. And I love Jiu-Jitsu because it's held up the tradition that martial arts, someone that's a karate lost because it became a business. And people would just, you know, put their time in and pay for their black belt. And it just watered it down. All these people running around saying that they're master this and, you know, a grand whatever and all these made up things. It's like, oh, yeah, the guy's a master in an Asian martial arts.

That's an English word. Right, right. You know what I mean? How did master sneak its way into a male ego? Well, the thing about martial arts other than jiu-jitsu is when you're sparring, it's very controlled. Like a lot of karate sparring is very controlled. A lot of tiguanos sparring is very controlled. But in jiu-jitsu, the beautiful thing about grappling is, you know how good everybody is because they all spar. They're all rolling with each other. And they

essentially go in full blast until the tap. Yeah. And so you, there's no hiding. No hiding your skill. Yeah, I love what Eddie Bravo used to say. Basically, when you won, I killed you. Yeah. Yeah. I just killed you. Yeah. You know? So that's like, wow, that's a, that's a trip because it's like, it actually works out that way. Oh, yeah. If he gets you in a triangle and you tap, it's because you were about to go to sleep. Yes. And once you're asleep, you could just stomp your head into a pancake. Yeah. Yeah. You're done. Yeah. Just hold onto that triangle and then you never wake up. Yeah. Yeah. What a humbling thing. Yeah. Yeah. Very humbling. Yeah. And what's really humbling is how quickly someone could do it to you when you don't know what you're doing. Like, that was shocking to me. Because I had all this

martial arts experience and I first started training I was like what's someone going to do to me? I wrestled in high school I'm strong I'm fast I didn't know how to fight I just got manhandled over and over and over again this is ridiculous yeah but kudos because a lot of people because of you got an egotistical thing going

and you know get to your your little I don't know your comfort because you got your black belt and all that kind of stuff that means jack nothing You know, to everybody I know who continues and really to learn, you know, real fighting, knows when you had a boxer beat the hell out you and you go, oh, weird, there's a lot of this stuff I got to toss out the window. Yeah. Because, I mean, I never forget, like, times where, you know, like, a wrestler gets to me or a boxer, like, pieces me up, like, early on.

I'm like, no, I got to learn this. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I went through several of those. Mm-hmm. I went through one of them in high school because I had a friend in high school that was a wrestler. And I didn't think anything of wrestling. I'm like, that's not even a martial arts.

And then we wrestled on the grass one day. And he just took me down at will. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like he was pinning me down. I couldn't move. I couldn't get up. I'm like, this is stunning. Right.

I thought I'm strong. I thought I could move. I thought I'll be able to get out of the way. No, I had no chance. And he wasn't even a great wrestler. He was just a decent wrestler. It just humbled me over and over and over again. So then I started wrestling.

Then when I got into Taekwondo, I thought I'm really good at Taekwondo. I was competing on a national level. I won the state championships four years in a row. I was fucking people up. And then I remember the first time I boxed with a really good amateur boxer. I was like, oh, Lord. And this kid was like 18 years old. And he went on, his kid, his name is Dana Rosenblatt.

He went on to become New England. middleweight champion. He beat Vinnie Pazienza. He beat Howard Davis Jr. as a professional. He was a really good boxer. Wow. Yeah, he had to be. But he was kickboxing at the time. And I was going to get into kickboxing. And so I was sparring with him. But when I was boxing with him, I was just getting lit up. I was like, oh, and then also when we're kickboxing, the moment he got close to me, I was in trouble. Right. I was like, oh, no. Like, Taekwondo had too many flaws. Exactly. The hand techniques. So I had gone through that. And so then I thought, okay, well now I understand kickboxing.

Then I met a dude who went to Thailand a bunch of times and was training Muay Thai and fighting over there and then I started learning leg kicks. I'm like, well, oh, good Lord. Now all they have to do is kick my legs? I didn't even think of that. And then I started really paying attention to WCA fights, like the old Dennis Alexio days

and Don the Dragon Wilson. And I was like, leg kicks, leg kicks are everything. Oh my goodness. And then I'm like, okay, well now I got a solid foundation. I understand how to fight. And then I started getting J jitzyz. Like, oh no, back to square one. Yeah, yeah.

I'm getting raped. I was just getting mauled on the mats. But I'd been through that so many times and restarted so many times. I was like, well, it's time to learn this now. Yeah. That's what I'm saying is everything has something to teach you. Yeah. And, you know, even though there's that, this is a martial art, there's a fantasy world, which is, I look at it's hilarious.

You know, there's this, you know. I don't know. There's sometimes, I would say it like this. Like, with martial arts, it's the Dunning Kruger effect in the largest way possible because everybody out there has an opinion of martial arts, though very few people really know what it is. You know, they want to look at, you know,

the movies and everything, and they really want to believe that. They want to believe that this guy who, you know, kicks in the air and all that kind of stuff, will be able to beat a champion. And in a way, hey, I benefit from that to some degree because they think that about me. But, you know, even though I'm comfortable fighting

and I love to, I mean, I just love fighting against anybody. But you've had actual competition experience, like a lot of competition experience. Yeah, but my best experience is with like, I got the chance to train against champions at their place, you know, when they're at their best. And it's not an ego thing. It's just like I love to be able to test myself.

And I mean, because I'm my biggest competition. And so that whole thing about just what the bowel means to me is like, thank you for making me better. Right. By providing me an obstacle. And the higher, you know, the better the person, the better I can become. 100%. And so I loved it. So I've, you know, for years I'm in there with Go Kansaki and, you know,

Murray Smith's and, you know, you know, you name it. I, I've gotten, I consider myself one of the luckiest, like, martial artists on the planet because I get to train with so many people. Sometimes, you know, at my house and, you know, I've got all these, you know, former champions, you know, training and, you know, Rampage when he was champion. I go to his place. And, you know, and honestly, like, the things I brag about is when I get humbled, you know, because that's when I learned something.

For sure. My philosophy is I love to be wrong because every time I'm wrong, I learn something. Absolutely. And so, like, some of the best times for me is, like, I know when I was, you know, Michael Bisbing was getting ready for to fight George St. Pierre. And we were in Thailand. I was like, yeah, you know, let's mix it up. What are you doing in time?

Island. We were doing a movie out there. Oh, wow. But he had to train. He was getting ready for the George St. Pierre fight. And so, you know, I was like, yeah, let's do some rounds or whatever. And I got so winded the second round. I'm like, dude, just whoop my ass. I feel so like, like, I'm embarrassed. Bisping was a cardio machine. Yes, he was. He was a cardio machine. I didn't expect that because we were, we spent. all day on a yacht the day before and he was drinking nonstop. I'm a non-drinker, right? I'm like, this guy's going to, you know, I'm going to probably take it easy on him today.

He is one of the toughest motherfuckers that ever fought in the sport. I swear. This is what I say about him. No matter what you think about watching his fights, you have to understand. Not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye. One fucking eye. He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record with one eye. Yeah.

Crazy. Yes. Yeah, that's, man. He would memorize the eye chart so that when they covered his eye, he could side it out like he could read it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. How fucking crazy is that? He's got a hell of a personal story, too.

I was trying to encourage him to get that made. You know, like, honestly, man, I really look at. these UFC fighters and, you know, the MMA guys as our modern-day heroes. They're our gladiators. And so whenever I have a chance, man, I always like to put them in movies and try to expose them to another kind of way of, you know, getting paid. Yeah. Especially afterwards because it breaks my heart that they're heroes

and then they get discarded sometimes. But, man, not by the union. that they're with, but just by the fans. They're so fickle sometimes. Yes. Well, the casuals, the people that aren't really martial artists. Right, yeah. So, you know, I dismiss a guy when they lose a few.

Yeah, I just did my third movie with Cowboy Soroti. You know, we just finished a little over a week ago. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, he's doing really good, man. I love that. Yeah, yeah, me too. That's a guy that could really legitimately transition to become a movie star.

Yes, yes, and he's got a lot more confidence. This is, like I said, the third movie, I did a, I did a, he did a western with me. Outlawed Johnny Black, I wrote and directed it. But I had, I had a cowboy, I had Randy Couture in it. Oh, wow. And then Josh Barnett. Randy's done an amazing job of transitioning.

Oh, absolutely. The expendables, you know, and he's great at it. Yeah, yeah. He has a great personality. Absolutely. Very calm. Like, he, well, I remember one time he was fighting Tim Sylvia for the heavyway title And he came out there and he had a smile on his face.

He looked over at me and he winked. I'm like, how was this motherfucker so relaxed before he's fight? But he had an amazing perspective. He said to me, the people who love you will love you whether you win or lose. And he said, what's the worst thing that can happen? You lose? He goes, you've lost before. It's no big deal.

Yeah, remember him spanking Tito? Yeah, he got on top of him spanking him. Randy was an animal. Yeah, well, you know, he had a little. Yeah, well, you know, he had that heart attack while he was shooting my movie. That's crazy. And it came back to set like nothing. How did he have a fucking heart attack?

I don't remember how exactly. It was, and I think he drove himself to the hospital. Yeah, man. Talk about an American hero, man. I mean. I was there for his first fight. Really? Yeah, 1997.

Yeah, I was there for his very first fight. Oh, shoot. He fought this huge jack dude, took him down, mounted him, beat the shit. out of them. It was wild. It was like that was the time where wrestlers had first started cracking this code. Right. Right. There was this code of there was a lot of people that thought like Jiu-Jitsu was the only way and then the elite wrestlers got in there. Oh, God. The Mark Kerr's, the Mark Coleman's. And then Randy, a bunch of these guys got in there and then they realized like, if a guy can just take you down and beat the fuck out of you from the top, there's not a whole lot

you could do about it. Right. Right. And then we realize like, boy, that is the corner, that's the true cornerstone of martial arts. The ability to take a guy down. My goodness. I mean, what's harder than wrestling? I don't think there's anything. The hardest sport in the world. Yeah.

The hardest sport in the world. Yeah. The best sport in the world to get your kids into at a young age because the discipline and the mental toughness that they get will carry them through for the rest of their life. Yep. Tenacity. Just the stick-to-itiveness, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. That's just like.

Even high school wrestling. I remember wrestling in high school. And I had already done martial arts, but I was like, I'd never trained that hard. I was like, I can't believe. And then it carried me. over into my Taekwano career because I realized like, oh, I'm leaving a lot on the table. Like, I'm not training like these guys are. Right, yeah, yeah.

So I started running. I started adding all these things to my training that I wasn't doing before. I started doing a lot more calisthenics, a lot more different things. So like, I'm leaving something on the table because we were not training in the gym. And we were sparring hard. We were doing hard rounds. You'd get tired. But it was not the same as what we were doing in wrestling. No one trains harder than wrestling.

That anaerobic stuff, man. That's, man. I got the wrestling bug. when I was a senior in high school. And the football coach was a wrestler in college. And he challenged me. I think we did this two years in a row. My junior year and my senior year, at the end of the year, we'd wrestle.

We'd just go like, you know, he and I. Like I said, I was big for my age. Were you playing football? I was for a very short time. but I ended up I wasn't designed for team sports I ended up beating up the football coach

Oh no Yeah I had a Dude like I had I had the worst temper than anybody I'd ever seen I mean I used to go in the fits of rate I was so angry Early on man It's like the Hulk is like Mike you should chill out a little bit

man. Like, I was just... It's probably from being on your own at 14. Yeah, you know, what it is is like I was growing up in a very harsh environment. And I was, I didn't know I was an artist. I didn't know I was a writer,

director, whatever. You know, they didn't, you didn't see those growing up where I am. Right. And so when you're a sensitive kid, man, what you do is you build armor. Like, I was to play Mike Tyson later on and I understood him quite well.

And if you're a, sensitive. You know, anything that's precious, you put it in a, you lock it in a safe and you become the safe. And it's, it's like, I grew up, my brothers were completely different. They're engineers. So things rolled off their back. But like for me, just, I was just volatile. And luckily I had martial arts to kind of put my focus into. But like I said, like I was to play Mike Tyson, I understood him a great deal. And, you know, even though you take the moniker of this monster, it's only to hide what's really deep inside. And that's why you would see if anybody's going to go into tears in front of a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson. And you go,

how does that fit in the same person? Right. And so that's what I was growing up. And, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I was a school teacher before. I was an actor. Oh, really? Yeah, I taught EMD. I was a special ed teacher. So I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me. And I still do that.

And the way I consider that my real job. Whenever I'm off from work on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities. I go into community centers. I devote my time because there's nothing that I could do. There's no better spending of time than something like that. because I was luckily, luckily saved. I had just at the right times in my life, just different seeds planted.

And so I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here. Because, like I say, I've been through some crazy stuff. It's a classic story. Yeah, bro, man, like, I tell you, like just a little under two years ago, a buddy of mine, who was a close friend of mine, he got out of prison. He was in prison for almost like 30 years.

And he found me on Facebook. And so when I went back east, we linked up. And I know a lot of people who have businesses and everything. I hooked him up, you know, got him a job, and we were sitting over lunch. And in the middle of him telling me like a third or fourth story, like back in the glory days, of us or whatever. While he was in the middle of this story, I was,

I was, you know, kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight because I don't know if you want to call it superstitious, but I won't lie. I refuse to lie to my friends. I even, I won't lie by omission. So I was getting set to tell him,

dude, man, you got to stop embellishing on these stories just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than life. I get it, but that's not real. You got to really, you know, kind of not do that. And in the middle of me thinking that,

and I'm listening to him, I go, holy shit, he's telling the truth. I started remembering what he was telling me. And I'm like, now I'm finishing his sentences. Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true too. and do, like I swear, every time I think about this,

I got these goosebumps and I realize, oh my God, how close I was to being where he was or just not being on this planet. Right. Like,

I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped. Yeah, don't pull that ladder up. No, hell no. Hell no. Even if I'm taken out, I accept that.

Even if I'm in some projects where I'm not supposed to be and I shouldn't have been, I accept that. Because, dude, I am abundantly lucky. Like, it doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am.

And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up, but man, I'm like, wow. Well, that speaks to your character that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating. I swept it under the rug.

Yeah. Because you're not that person anymore. No, no, but I mean, but there was so much, there was so many events, things that would, I just call it, on a Wednesday that I went through, that it's like,

I don't know, like, I think I wouldn't trade it because I continue to be the happiest guy I know because of, I think, some of that. Because you can appreciate the good times. Oh, my God, yeah. And I should be slapped if I complain about anything. Right. You know what I mean? Like, what? And so, you know, so I just, boy, I just know I just know I'm so blessed.

and you know what we do what we're doing even right now man we're in the service industry man you know you're here to serve in my opinion that's what we're all here for and you know it's great that we get to serve and doing the things that we would like to do

that inspired us that's definitely a lot of what we do that means definitely a lot of it right you you entertain but I feel very blessed that I've been able to expose people to so many different ways of thinking, so much information, so many different human beings that have led completely

different paths that can tell you about whatever discipline they're involved in, what they've learned, and what we're working on right now, and what you can learn about the human mind, the body, ancient history, fill in blank, like, whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, and I see you do that over and over, and in utmost honesty. I remember, like, where you had to kind of pull Shab aside until, as a friend, you know, as a friend, some things that are hard for people that, you know, other friends to tell him, you know, and like... That was real hard. Yeah.

Well, that was real hard because I love that guy. He's a great, he's a great person. He's a great human being. And I knew the path. I'd seen it too many times, but I hadn't seen it with someone I was that close with. I was like, you have to stop because you, not only that you're in the heavyweight division. So the knockouts are brutal and you're going to get three or four more in the next couple of years. and then you're not going to recover from those.

Man, so many people, I hope they take a page out of that because it's so non-manly, I feel, to just not say anything. Right. And allow somebody you love to go down the road. I mean, that might be detrimental for them. Well, it was also when Shab had another path. He was really good at podcasting. He's fun.

He's a funny dude. Right, yeah. He's like, as a podcast, he's like, you got a great personality. He's silly. You know, he's a big giant silly dude. Yeah. Like, we would have so much fun. And he was doing really well.

And he was making more money doing that than he was fighting. Yeah. But his identity was so wrapped up in him being a top 10 UFC heavyweight. Right. You know, he had beat world class guys like Mercco, crocop. You know, and he was legit, man. But that time had passed. Yeah.

And I saw that his, he was one foot in and one foot out. And as soon as the guy's one fit in and one foot out, you're going to run into some guy who has both feet and he's a fucking samurai. And then you're going to wake up on a stretcher. Yeah. You're on the way to the hospital going, what happened? And you don't remember the fight.

You don't remember nothing. And then you don't know where your keys are. You forget people's names. You tell the same story over and over again. And then you struggle to put sentences together. When you start seeing dudes with the slur. Nothing's worth that, man. Nothing's worth that.

Because you're, I mean, at the time, he was only 35 years old or whatever he was. I'm like, man, you got another 45, 55 years of love. You can't do this. You can't sacrifice all these years for glory that will never be achieved anyway because you're not on that path anymore. Yeah, and it's not about what strangers say about you. No. It's about, you know, your friends, your family, people really love you. It's just so hard for people to abandon that identity.

That's the hardest thing with fighters is to abandon that identity. We've seen so many guys, even the greats, they come back and they shouldn't and you see it. and you see them get humiliated, you're like, oh. Yeah, yeah. And when it comes down to it, these people, they don't love you, man. Like, a lot of it's... They love you as the image. Yeah, they live vicariously through you.

I remember one time I was in a fight in Boston. And I remember when something completely changed. Usually, if anybody would... Because I did any kind of thing. I would do kickboxing or this tournament. I just loved my best. I think the thing I did best in the world was fighting. I always had these cheat codes in a way.

And I enjoyed the chess match of it. And anybody who was against me, I don't care if you were my cousin or whatever, you were going to pay for all the angst that I've had in my life. But until there was this one time, I swear, I ducked a technique, I caught somebody with something that was kind of, you know, kind of cool. And I just remember the audience just cheering.

And in that moment, I was like, just angry. Kind of like, yo, this guy could really be messed up right now. You're cheering for me. You're living vicarious through me like I'm a pit bull or something. Right. And I got angry at the audience. I fucking hated them. And I said, because if I was down on the ground, you'd be cheering for the person that put me down.

And something just snapped. And I go, no, this is not enough for me. This is not what I want to do. And, you know, just something snapped. And I much rather be skillful, test myself in a skillful way. And I'd much rather not try to peel your head off, but show I could, as opposed to, you know, that triumph of dominating. It was nothing for me anymore in that. You know, and just something, it's just something just rubbed me the wrong way.

And I just, any time I would do any kind of competition, it was for me, and it wasn't for an audience. you know, just something soured. I always thought at one time I'm going to be called out, you know, and I thought, oh, I'll rise to that occasion if that happens. And, you know, kind of like, remember the thing with you with Wesley? Oh, yeah. Which would have been, oh, my God, that would have been terrible. But I always thought, hey, you know, maybe, you know, something.

I think Wesley just needed money. I mean, that was one he was. I don't think he'd ever be serious. But it's very much like I think... We were in negotiation for quite a while, man. We had lawyers involved. Yeah, it's always easy to pull a plug on something like that. Just like John Claude's talking about fighting Jake Paul, right?

Is he talking about that right? He's 100 years old. He weighs 50 pounds. I'm like, come on, man. Come on. Is he really talking about Jake Paul? I just saw something in the last couple days. I'm like, okay.

I think Wesley was serious because I think they had... They had hit him with that tax case, and he owed a lot of money to the government. Well, this is before that tax case. No, no, no. It was in the middle of it. Really? Yeah, 100%. I know it was.

Huh. Yeah, it was 2000, I want to say, five or six. It was in the middle of all that. And he was in trouble. It was serious. And he, you know, obviously eventually wound up going to jail. Yeah, yeah. And so they were going to set up a fight with him and Jean-Claude Van Damme.

That was the first fight. But Campbell, yeah, Campbell McLaren from the UFC, was like, no one gives a shit about you fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme. You got to fight someone who's current. And so he said, let me contact Joe Rogan. He called me up. And he said, would you be willing to fight Wesley Snipes? And I was like, what? And I was like, come on, really? I go, what is this? And so I said, let me think about it. I thought about it. I called them the next day. I said, let's fucking do it. Really? Yeah. I was training with Rob Kamen in the mornings, and then I was doing jiu-jitsu at night. I trained twice a day for six

months. Wow. I was always tired. I was always tired. That's one thing that I realized. Like, fuck, man, to be, like, and I wasn't even a professional, really, but it was training like a professional. It's like, I can't believe how tired I am all the time. But, you know, I think Wesley had never really had a fight. I don't think so. I think he was an accomplished martial artists. He had good technique. I trained with Wesley's instructors. You know, Marcus Elgado was a good friend of and also Lamar Thornton, who was Marcus Elgado's instructor. That's, I believe, that's the only, that's the lineage I believe that he's through. I mean, I've never, I've known Wesley since way before he was kind of Wesley.

Wow, I was a giant fan of Wesley, too, which was also wild for me. Because I love Blade. Blade was like my favorite comic book when I was a kid. Yeah, yeah. I just didn't, I didn't think they were serious about, I didn't. I couldn't imagine why would Wesley. I always thought it was not real. I think Wesley thought that I was just a grappler and think he knew that I was doing

Jiu-Jitsu. I don't think he knew my background. And so, like, they were, Wesley was talking to them saying, oh, he thinks he's going to be able to stop you from taking him down and he's going to catch you with a knee where you're coming in to try to take him down. I'll go, oh, he wants to stand up? Yeah. I go, I'm way better at that.

Yeah. Yeah, I was wondering how that even occurred. I didn't think that was serious. I was like, okay. It was serious. Yeah, it was serious. It went on for a long time. It was a lot of negotiation to the point where I even talked about it on the UFC broadcast once.

I said, come on, Wesley, sign the contract. I'm getting bored, training. Let's do this. Like, I have to do it now. I was like 35 or 36. I was like, I don't have much time left. If we're going to do this, we have to do this now. Like, come on.

let's go and then he decided not to and then I'm like that's probably for the better yeah I know Wesley for a while I remember when he was first telling me about the sovereign

being sovereign yeah that's where they got him with that sovereign citizen shit yeah and I was like I wish I was friends with him I would have said dude they're gonna lock you up I was I'm super protective of my friends

I've always been that way and with Wesley I was always like my thing is he used to have people around him that I'm like, you know, we have little get-togethers at my house, whatever. I'm like, don't bring any of those motherfuckers. Or it's going to be a problem. You know, because there's people that just I felt like were hangers on and, you know, that kind of a thing. And I was always like, yeah, man, are you good?

And, you know, are you staying healthy? I've always been that way. Because the way I look at it, he's a big brother. If not for him, it may not be for me. You know, he gave me some good advice early on. He always encouraged me that. I'm doing, if I have a movie that's overseas, get there, you know, show up in those overseas markets, let them know that you're down, you know?

And I took that to heart and that helped me out in my career a great deal. And so, you know, I look at it like that. I'll never say anything derogatory about them or whatever. So, I mean, I'm always, I mean, I just recently tried to reach out to him like a couple days ago just to check in, man, because I, you know, I wish him the best. And, you know, I want him to, like, really, you know, start kicking ass again. I would love to see him return as Blade. Yeah, that would be cool.

He could do it, too. Yeah, yeah. An older Blade, he could do it. Yeah. Fuck, he was good in the original Blade. Yeah. That's the opening scene. That was one of the best scenes in any action movie of all time.

When it's that vampire party and the sprinkler starts spraying blood. Yeah, yeah. And they're about to kill that dude. Yeah. And all of a sudden, Wesley shows up. Yeah, man. What really gets on my nerves is that, you know, he saved Marvel, man. That movie saved Marvel.

Oh, yeah. That movie was a huge hit. Even Stan Lee admits that. They were, like, in trouble until that movie. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Because superhero movies are the biggest fucking movies in Hollywood right now. I mean, when they have a big budget movie,

superhero movies are, like, the only movie that you can throw hundreds of millions of dollars and be sure it's going to kill. it in the box office. Yeah. Whether it's the Avengers or Spider-Man or Superman or whoever the fuck it is, that's the only kind of movie that Hollywood's like, yeah, okay, we'll throw 500 million at this one. Yeah.

And, you know, it's, it's, I'm not a big fan of those things. I know it's not, they didn't design it for people like me. Right. So it's for the fan base. And to me, it's like, oh, you know, I, they, they tend to meld into each other as far as I'm They do. They do. There's only so many times you can tell the stories. You know. Yeah. But I still enjoy them. I still enjoy some of them. They're fun. Yeah, I like when people are believable. Right. Believable. Yeah, there's nothing believable about those movies. Yeah. You know,

like the actors that are like, you know, have some quirkiness and some, you know, edge to them. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. You know, maybe I'm being unfair because I really hadn't seen a lot. Maybe I owe it to myself to give some of it. No, I think you got it. It's simple entertainment. It's a silly release and escape. That's all it is. It's not a great, there's no great films that are superhero films.

Right, yeah, because sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, she's 90 pounds and she just threw a guy. Okay. Yeah. Like Charlie's Angels or something. Yeah, I'm like, oh, come on now. And it's like, anytime somebody lands in a three-point stance and then looks up, I'm like, I just changed the channel. Yeah. Like, stop.

Just stop. Yeah. But, you know, people love those things. I'm like, that's cool. I don't know why they have so much appeal, especially in the American market. People, that is one of the only movies that you can make that's guaranteed to be huge. Yeah, it's McDonald's, man. It's McDonald's.

Right. I remember when. That's it. Yeah. I remember when you had, what was that, like the 300. You know, that was like nobody, nobody knew anybody. Right. But that was just such a breath of fresh air because it looked like some badasses that were real.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I'd like to see more of that kind of a thing. Like, you know, not the star power thing, but just some motherfuckers that you believe. Right. You know what I mean? That would, you know, that would attract me. Also, the style of that movie was so unique because it blended fantasy with reality.

Right. And history, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I would. I got some things in the works. Do you? Yeah.

What are you working on? Oh, man. I've been blessed, man. I've got some really good movies coming out and some things that I'm planning on doing. I'm getting to a place where I'm really shooting the things that I want and I'm producing and all that stuff. So, you know, I have movies that have their body count, but also have a little bit of, like, something to say. You know what I miss? What's that?

Spawn. Oh, man. A lot of people. People forgot about Spawn. You don't hear about it. it anymore. Right. Yeah, man. That was fucking great. Yeah, I had my...

Man, you didn't... Most people didn't see the first adaptation of it. The first well, I saw a cut of the movie before it, I mean, at this time it had like 71 special effects in it. But Bob Shea at the time

that was running New Line liked that version he just gave the director, Cart Blanche, to just add whatever he wanted. And the director was a special effects guy.

So he started throwing special effects in there that was really killing the story, which kind of drove me up a wall because then, like, you didn't even see why my character wanted to get back. You didn't even see

the life that I wanted to get back to because there was so much Special effects. And even when I saw the final version, I'm like, what the hell is going on? People that new spawn, they were fine with it because they understood the character. But for me, it was like the story got all convoluted.

But like, you know, but I mean, people love it. It was a, I think it was a thing for its time. But unfortunately, I saw a version of it that made you care about it. I understand, but I cared about the one that I saw. And I felt like I don't understand how spawned, sort of escape the zeitgeist. You don't ever hear about Spawn anymore.

You know what I mean? There's all these superhero films, all these different things, but Spawn was unique, and it was really good and dark. Yeah, I always said if they did another one, you should do it just like the comic book. Make it hard hour,

are non-rated. Because, I mean, like to do Spawn PG, how we did PG-13, it's like, what do you want? You're trying to go for a breakfast cereal? Like Spon-holes or something? Like, come on, man. Let's go hard.

Like the cartoon, right? See if you can find a clip from Spawn. Because I feel like no one talks about it anymore. It's kind of weird. They damn sure talk to me about it. Bro, it was good. What year was this? 97?

Wow. Yeah. They were fucking great, man. Now stay sharp. The night is young. Oh, has a new enemy. Justice has a new weapon And the world has a new hero.

Ha ha ha ha. The memories. Bro, that was a fucking great movie, man. New Lion Cinema Presents. Yeah. That was a great movie. How many did you guys do? One.

Just one. Just one. There was nothing else. Wasn't there something else like a series? It was a cartoon first. That's right. Yeah, well, it was comic book, then it was a cartoon on HBO. Oh, that's right.

Yeah, yeah. Keith David was the voice of spawn on that one. Oh, yeah. Yep. And so, yeah. But that was a big hit. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health, from the big milestones to the quiet winds.

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It made its money back. Yeah. I mean, I remember it was very popular. Like, everyone who was talking about, people got excited about it. Especially people like me that like the comic books. Right, right. They were very into it. Yeah.

I was always surprised. But it's weird to me that that, that even the comic book spawn doesn't get brought up anymore. Right. Every now and then like I'm off doing a movie, whatever, I drive by comic book stores, I go and I just start signing shit, right? The spawn stuff.

So there's still stuff there. Oh, yeah. There's always giving me a hardcore fan base. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you know, there's people, like, there's still hardcore about that. And then Tom McFarlane has talked about doing another spawn for the last 25 years.

years. It was huge. But the weird thing is, it's like, okay, I wish you all the best of luck, bro. But you created the comic book. When he's talking about doing another spawn, I'm like, you haven't done a first one. Like the comic

book? No, he's not a director. Like, he's, it's just like Stan Lee hasn't directed a Marvel movie. Right. And Tom McFarland is talking about doing another spawn, but I'm like, well, that would be the first time. a person that created a comic book directed and produced a movie that I know of, right?

Because even though he talks about he's going to do one, and he had this concept that he talked to me about, and then he said he wanted to, you know, I guess he wanted to use Jamie Fox. And he talked about this concept that spawn would be, you wouldn't see him. And it's like, like jaws, he would never be around, but just people would get fucked up.

All of a sudden, they're, you know, like a mist would come. coming, people are destroyed. I'm like, good luck with that. You know, I don't know, but he's been talking about it for a while and people say, oh, man, I'm sad that you're not the next

spot that they're using Jamie. I'm like, when is it going to happen? They've been, he's been saying that for a long time, but I'm going, hey, maybe somebody is going to give him that amount of money to do a movie when he's never directed anything. before. Right. Right. He hasn't directed anything before. He visited set a few times because he

created a comic book. Directing a movie is something completely different. You know what I mean? So I'm like, all power to you if that's happening. But it's like, I wonder why people believe it. Hmm. Yeah, that's a lot to bite off, especially a movie like that, which would probably be a large budget. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, but...

And then you're going to get the executives involved and they're going to fuck with it because they always have to have their say. Yeah, man, it's a miracle that a movie gets done the way it's intended, period. Yeah. I'm like, a lot of times when a movie works, I go, how did some executive not fuck this movie up? Right. Right.

I mean, I'm always like that. There's only a few guys that can get away with a movie where everybody just leaves them alone. There's a few Tarantino. out there. Yeah. Just let them go. Just let them go.

Yep, yeah. If you tried to make once upon a time in Hollywood and you weren't a successful director, you were just some guy with an idea. Someone would come along and fuck that out. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. Luckily, people are leaving me alone. I've been directing and, you know, doing my own thing. They go, okay, you got this. Okay, like I say, I'll give you the body count. But now if I could put stuff in it, you know? What is going on with Jamie Fox doing Tyson?

Because that's been rumored for a decade at least. Yeah. That's another thing. It's like weird. Jamie Fox wants to do a Tyson and a spawn. But it's like, I don't know. I don't take it personally. Very talented guy.

But yeah, I think Jamie does a very good impression of Mike Tyson. Yeah, but you've got to gain like 100 pounds. Right. Jamie's got to get, he's got to pack on that meat at 50. But then why? I just sit there and I go, why? When Tyson's life itself has been very, you know, know, transparent.

Right. And so you can see the real guy in documentary form and everything else. What story do you have to tell? That's true. I'm not trying to be a hater, but I'm like, I'm just curious. The only thing that would be interesting is seeing, like, Jamie do it. Seeing him pull, like you pulled off, Ray Charles, like seeing him pull it off. That would be the appeal of it, I think.

Right, but in my personal opinion, I don't think that's enough. You got to tell a story. Right. I know what you're saying. Yeah, it's got to be some compelling story. I mean, hell, I mean, people saw Titanic. You know how it's going to end. But he had to present a story there.

Well, Jamie is so versatile. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's very few guys that can do all the different things that he can do. He could sing. He can act. He could do stand-up. And he could do all kinds of different characters. And, I mean, and he's so believable in so many different roles.

You know what I watched the other day, which is a fucking great movie that I forgot was so great, is collateral. Oh, hell yeah. Oh, my God. No, no. When Jamie had collateral and Ray, to me, like there was, you couldn't have had a better year. Right. Two completely different human beings. Oh, my God. Yes.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And he became those people. He became Ray Charles. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

And as good as he can sing, him singing as Ray Charles was insane. It's one of the best, I mean, performances ever. Ever, ever. But so was collateral. Man, he really played that dude in collateral. You believed it. And fucking Tom Cruise. Oh, my God.

Tom Cruise really proved something to me in that damn movie. Because I would never think I would never think I would ever be scared of Tom freaking Cruz. Right. And how convincing he was. He's a bad motherfucker. Yes. He is a bad. He's craziest bad shit.

But he's a bad. motherfucker. You have to be, you have to be that crazy to do all the stunts that that guy does. He's 60 years old. He's jumping off buildings and shit and breaking his ankle. Yeah, just like Johnny Depp. I'm like, Johnny Depp when he did Black Mass. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I'm like, oh, you had that in you? Right, right, right, right. Holy shit. And just like with Tom Cruise, I'm like, him having that character in him? There's a scene in collateral that tactical instructors play. Yes. The scene when they're... Double tap.

Yes. He whips it back. Double tap, double tap. He knocks the guy's gun out of the way, pulls it out. Da-da-ta-da-da-da-da-da-da-down. And it's so fast and so smooth. See, you can find that scene, Jamie. It's a scene where they're trying to take Tom Cruise's briefcase.

Yeah. And he's in an alleyway. Yep. Ooh. Yeah, I play that over and over myself. The amount of times that he must have drilled that to get that unholstered the gun, pull it out, shoot them, shoot the other dude so smooth and the way he did it so professional. I mean, it looks like a legit hitman.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that was, that, that character, I mean, from start to finish, like, to me, proved a lot. Yeah. I mean, he embodied that guy. And you know, there it is. Is that my briefcase? Is your briefcase?

Yeah, it is. Why? You want it back? What about your wallet? What else you got from a little? Huh? Come on, son. Yeah.

I actually visited that set when they were shooting that. Not that scene, but it was another day. And I remember it was weird because they were shooting something, and they were shooting Tom, behind Tom Cruise's head. And he had eight camera angles just behind his head. I'm like and I'm looking at the you know the video village where

they made sure they had they had a choice of whatever perfect thing that they want they it was the craziest thing I'm like and I guess Michael Mann he's known for like shooting a lot

but it was like eight cameras that's just behind the dude that's crazy yeah I'm like this is a whole other, like, level. Yeah, it was crazy. It's a great fucking movie.

That movie holds up. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's Prime Jamie, man. Yep. Yeah. And the fact that he's got that much range,

that he can do this nerdy dude who's terrified, he doesn't know what the fuck is going on. He's just driving a car. And all of a sudden he has his hitman with him, and then he gets wrapped up in this whole thing. Yeah, but as a fan, I want to see him do something else like that. Right. Right.

You know what I mean? Like something. like that requires what he can do. And there's a lot, you know, that's one of the things. There's not a lot of things out there sometimes. You know, so, you know, he's been doing things that I think show, you know, certain parts, but like to where he was going in collateral and Ray, you know, it would be nice to see that stuff again.

It's got to be hard to find those roles, right? And when you find those roles, there's probably like six or seven, eight, list dudes that they have like on a board somewhere and they're trying to figure out who's the guy for this. Yeah, but I believe he's going to sell the most. I believe you got to create your own stuff, man. Put it this way. Nobody was going to write black dynamite. Right, right, right.

You know what I mean? Right. You know, my thing is largely creating my own lane. That was a fun movie, by the way. Oh, thanks, man. Really fun. Thanks, man. So, yeah, man, so I, luckily, like, I enjoyed writing.

I was always looked at everything from, and I was always fascinated about this industry. And I sold a lot of things as a writer, separate from the acting thing. And so, you know, just putting it all together is something that's like I really enjoy doing. How do you dedicate your time when you're writing? Do you just, like, have an idea and say,

okay, for the next X weeks, I'm going to sit down and dedicate myself to this? Dude, it's all different. A lot of times I will see the entire movie. Like, when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was in China going to set. I was in Shanghai. And I was listening to James Brown Superbad.

And I just started thinking about, I'm laughing. I'm in the back of this car and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me. I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie, including a Nunchuk fight scene with Richard Nixon. and I'm laughing and you know I started jotting stuff down because it occurred to me man like I just like

I mean one day I was thinking like wow man like growing up we had shaft and well yeah we had a superfly and a Mac

and all that posters like that that we idolize and I'm going those were pimps there was something wrong with my childhood why am I

I The Mac? Like, that's a hero. And so it made me really think about it. And I'm like, I'm looking at these movies. And like Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are like killing like 60 people. And it's okay.

Everybody's like this, they have a club and then they got all these women. And I'm like, this is actually hilarious. If I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is, thinking about this. One of the biggest movies of that time was three to heart. I don't know if you remember that movie. Jim Brown, Fred Williamson, and Jim Kelly. Oh, yeah. I forgot about Jim Kelly.

Three the hard way. What was it about? It had the three predominant black exploitation stars, right? And the movie was about an evil Dr. Feather who had these leaders of liquid that he was going to put in the water systems of L.A., Chicago, and New York, in New York that we're going to kill all the black people.

It's not a comedy. That's the movie? It's not a comedy. It was going to give sickle cell anemia to all the black people. Now, the conspiratorial thing, I've been a black man for a long time, and it is really funny because in the community, conspiracy is a big thing, right? So, like that whole conspiratorial thing, oh, they're trying to get you, that kind of a thing. That kind of a thing.

It really, its engine was that, that paranoia that this leader of liquid was going to kill black people. Well, there was so much evidence that those conspiracies were real, like Tuskegee. Of course, that's something that's like, it's on its feet, though. But come on. A leader, something this big, in the water systems, that was going to kill all the black people. and that's not a comedy. That was a serious movie. But when you look at it, that's hilarious.

It's absolutely hilarious to think that you can do a movie about that. So to do a movie, I thought that really talked about that time period where it was kind of this overcorrection. Because, you know, you had in the 60s there were like, you know, butlers and maids and all that kind of stuff. But now you had these super overcorrected badasses that could just do anything, right? And I thought it was hilarious to look at it and treat it as if it were like back in that day, like a lost movie. Actually, Tarantino was somebody I was talking to about that whole thing when I was putting a black dynamite together. And he had certain ideas, but, you know, I kind of went my own direction with it. But yeah, man, so, yeah, things like that.

Like, you know, I've gotten to a place where I'm, you know, putting these things together that really interests me. And I'm finding that there's an audience that likes it as well. But, yeah, man, so, you know, it just occurred to me that it was bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know. So for that movie, that movie just came to you.

Yeah. But it came to me just like, the whole movie came to me in a ride to set. Is that normal for ideas? Or do you sometimes sit down and say, like, I want to write an idea about blank? Sometimes. Sometimes. Like, I have a movie that the next movie I'm going to do is a sequel to a movie I did call As Good as Dead, right? And it became Samuel Goldwyn's one of their most successful movies.

I wrote the idea. It was based off my brother. My brother, he went from Florida into Mexico and started a family. He just fell in love with Mexico. and I kind of based my character on him and he was basically a cop that's like hiding out in Mexico and trying to avoid

this syndicate or whatever that's trying to kill him. But that movie just came to me. I wrote it. We were in production like two months later and we actually got the movie done within a year and it was like... How did you get it?

made so quick. Yeah, I mean, they responded to the script. And it was kind of like a grown-up karate kid in a way. So my character, you don't know what was this black dude doing working construction in Mexico. And he's got his wing chung dummy.

He's training in his backyard. And it's a kid who's trying to avoid the gangs that he be friends that he teaches this unique kind of martial art. And so one thing leading to another, this kid gets good at. at it and they trace the style back to my character. And then, you know, then the bad guys are trying to kill me and I have to fight back.

So what we're doing, we're about to do a sequel. I start that in a couple of weeks, actually. So I wrote that one. But yeah, so I feel like, I don't know, I'm still a fan of movies. I don't, I wouldn't write something I wouldn't want to see. and I've seen a lot. You know, I think I understand this industry. I understand there's a lot of stories that I think could be told with fresh ways

and with the action and martial arts that could be new and excited. Like I'm getting to a place where I'm trying to make fight scenes look very real, like including choreographing mistakes. You know what I mean? I think people have become so much. more sophisticated, watching UFC fights, and all that type of stuff, I think you've got to raise the bar

to make something look real. And there's a lot of the stuff that's in the, you know, the superhero movies and whatever, that you just kind of go, okay, you're seeing choreography for choreography's sake. Right. And you're not invested because you don't feel like you're looking at a real fight.

Right. And so I like to try to, you know, use my platform to step that up a bit. Yeah, that's hard, especially as a person who was a martial artist to watch fight scenes and go, you have to kind of suspend disbelief and go, all right, let this play out. Kind of like, you know, it's weird, but, you know, kind of full circle, it's kind of going back to the way Bruce Lee did stuff. Mm-hmm. And he's a little faster than the other person. He has a little bit more technique.

And, you know, if you imagine, like, even if I imagine you in a real fight, your technique's not going nowhere. And other people are not going to have that same technique. You beat somebody to the punch, you do things that would logically give you the edge. That's what you shoot. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, so it's not like you've got to do a lot of camera tricks. If you're moving faster and stronger than another person, well, there it is.

There it is. So luckily, you know, I mean, I can put things on screen that kind of resemble what things might look like, you know, And you get the benefit of the doubt because, you know, you're in a heroic position. This is very hard to do that. It's very hard to make it look real. There's a real art to that. Yeah, yeah. But like with the movie that you turned down, blood and bone.

I turned down John Wickford, too, though. I turned down a lot of movies. You do. You did the right thing because what you're doing, you could not be more up your alley, doing the things that you're doing. But like... John Wick was hard. I'm a giant John Wick fan.

Are you? Especially John Wick 1. And eventually... There's going to be a John Wick 7. So you can decide to do something if you want to. They got kind of crazy. They're over the top now. But even John Wick 1 was totally unrealistic.

Oh, man. Totally unreal. But so fun. I fucking love those movies. Yeah. Well, I got something that's kind of in that vein that I just finished. There's a lot of body count, but a lot of CQB. I've been studying that.

for a while. What is CQB? Oh, close quarter of combat. Oh, okay. Of course, close quarter battle. But, you know, I've been doing, like, you know, a lot of, like, tactical training. And kind of getting myself, I may compete at some point. Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah. I've gotten pretty into it. Where do you train at? Well, a lot of places. I train a guy named Tyler Gray. He's Delta Force. I had a lot of friends who are like, you know, special force guys. You ever go to Taryn Tactical?

Oh, of course, yeah. Yeah, go to Taryn quite a bit. That guy's the best. Oh, yeah, he's a, man, he's amazing. You want to talk about someone who's very technical. Oh, my God. It's just, he shoots from the hip, like, better than anybody using a laser, you know? No, he's preposterous.

It's unreal. Always iron sights. Yeah. You know, he doesn't, I mean, he uses red dots, but, you know, he's, you know, he's, you know, He prefers iron sights. He's like they never fail. They never go wrong. Yeah.

And he's so crazy accurate. It's wild to watch. And when you think about like how long, how fast could you just take out everybody in this damn room? It's kind of. It's kind of spooky. Yeah. It's spooky. Yeah.

Well, it's also he's so calm about it too. Yeah. It's weird, like almost like autistic. Like weird. Yeah. Just fucking rain mannish. Yeah. Like, what the fuck?

When you watch him do it, like many times I've gone to his reign. to be trained, and then, you know, people will go to them into it. Like, do a run. Like, do this. And he's like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that.

And I'm going to pull this out right here. Yeah. It's crazy. You're like, what the fuck did I just watch? That's crazy. And then you see how many times he's won the championship? Oh, yeah. Ridiculous.

And there's only a few people that won consecutive years. And he's got like seven years in a row and just chunks with, I'm like, this is crazy. Yeah, he's a very unique talent. Yeah, yeah. Very unique talent. Yeah, a buddy, like Tyler Gray, he just, he's been Delta. He's been, he's been decorated. He's, oh, my God, his place in Vegas, he's, he creates guns.

And he's got, like, more in his arsenal than every gun store you can imagine. But, like, he's, like, he's something else. Like, one of the most mellow people you ever want to meet in your life. And he's been, the guy, been the consultant and director on Navy SEALs for years. And, you know, but I got a lot of friends doing that. So my brother, he just retired from Secret Service. And, you know, Danny Hester? No.

It was a former Mr. Olympia, classic physique. But he's gotten into, you know, I shoot with these guys all the time. And actually, a flex wheeler. You know, a lot of the guys are, you know, into the gun stuff. You know, so we go set up stuff and, you know. Well, once you start training, you realize, like, how difficult it is and how long the learning curve is. Because you think, oh, you point, you pull the trigger, what's the big deal?

Then you get into it, and then you see someone like Taryn or someone who's competing, and you go, oh, this is just like everything else, just like karate, like jutsu, like, there's levels. Oh, yeah. Levels and levels and levels. Yeah. And you see people competing and you go, oh, wow. Yeah.

I'd like to do that someday. Yeah, yeah. You're a great place for it. Yes. Yeah. Texas is a great place for it. Oh, yeah. There's a staccato range that we go to sometimes.

It's awesome. They have all these different setups out there. They have this old West town with all these different, like, target set up, and you run from doorway to doorway. It's pretty badass. Yeah, John Jones, I see, is doing quite a bit of that. John Jones is fucking scary. human being.

Yeah, yeah. And if you get past him, he's got his fucking dog Dutch. Yeah. Which is, you know, he brings a Belgian Malamo everywhere he goes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know my good friend, you know, Josh Barnett, he's at Terrans a lot, too. Yeah.

You know a scary human being. Yeah, yeah. And a very analytical intelligent. One of the most. Very well read. He is like Jeopardy smart. He's like ridiculous. There's not many things that he doesn't know.

Right. Yeah. He's amazing. I watch you guys on this show. I was very flattered. He mentioned, out of nowhere, he started talking about how he was inspired by myself and my wife. And that, you know, actually got me real choked up.

Yeah, I was like, what, man? Josh is a great guy. Yeah. You know, incidentally, my wife is somebody that, I don't know, you met her a long time ago. You last saw her sliding down the lugsore. Oh, wow. That's crazy.

Yep. That's crazy. On Fear Factor. On Fear Factor. Wow. Yep. She was sliding down to Luxor when you last saw her. That's crazy.

She slipped right into my arms. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, we've done our sixth movie together. Oh, wow. We've been, you know, we got two, our teenagers are, we got one less, well, we got two left in the house. We're going to college now. So, you know, we're about to be into nesters.

Yeah, man. So, yeah, it's wild how these things kind of connect. It is wild. Yeah. It is wild. Yeah. Josh is one of the, he's like one of the best examples to me of when people think of a martial artist or think of a cage fighter, former UFC heavyweight champion.

And you think of a guy like, oh, probably some brute, some, have a conversation with him. Yes. And you realize the depth of his intellect and the depth of his intellect and the depth of his knowledge, like how much he knows about. Nietzsche, he can quote Nietzsche. Oh, my God. He's so well read. He makes his own whiskey. Yeah. You know, like he's a very

interesting guy. Man, what a renaissance guy, man. Exactly. A real Renaissance guy. Yeah, we usually, we have the same birthday, so sometimes we throw parties together. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, when he's in town. He's always in Japan and just all over the place, man. He's like, he's an amazing human being. He really is.

Yeah, yeah. And again, one of the best examples, like, when people have a stereotype of what they think a cage fighter is. Yeah. And Josh was the youngest ever a UFC heavyweight champion. Yeah. Yeah. And man, that's probably, like, I've trained more with him than so many people.

Like, you know, and it's just, what a great friendship and what a, what a inspirational thinking person, you know, and, you know, so, you know, he did never back down three with me. We shot that in Thailand. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's it like training in Thailand? That's got to be fun. Oh, man.

Kind of hot. Yeah, but the motherland of Muay Thai. Yeah, yeah. Again, like with every style, it's strengths and its weaknesses. You know, a lot of them, you know, a lot of things around, you know, they go around and not straight. Right. Straight, you know, of course, the quickest distance between two points is a straight line. So it's not a whole lot of, well, they could do with a lot more boxing technique and some of those things.

But, man, talk about toughness, that kind of a thing. But it's kind of a tragic, like how they beat that shit out of themselves. By the time they're in their 30s, man, they're like. Yeah, they're busted up. Well, they start fighting when they're very, very young. But it's also led to them training so intelligently. You know, one of the things about Thai training, they don't. We don't spar like a lot of Americans do, where they beat the fuck out of each other.

They play spar. Yeah. And that play sparring allows them to not get beat up by the time they get into the ring on Saturday, because a lot of them are fighting every week. So they do touch sparring. You know, and a lot of people say, oh, you can't get good touch sparring. Well, she certainly can. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Especially when you're fighting every weekend. Yeah. And it's probably the best way to do it because you're, you know, just working on timing, pattern recognition, and just getting your reps in. Yeah, just like with Jiu-Jitsu, of course, when you don't muscle things, when the technique, you let the technique do its thing, that's so much better.

Right, right. And you maintain so much better as well. Right, and I think one of the best examples of that is like Sanchai, because Sanchai is in his 40s, and he's still fucking people up. I mean, it's crazy watching that guy fight, but you look at him, a very unassuming guy, you know, that it's not ripped.

You know, he's an older guy. but he's just his timing and his smoothness and the way he moves. It's very playful. He's just fucking people up. Yeah, yeah. Man, it makes me, I miss Thailand. I actually did my, we did our wedding ceremony in Thailand. Oh, wow.

Yeah, and you know who was, who officiated part of it was Tony Jha. Oh, really? Tony Jha did the Buddhist part of our wedding. He did the water blessing, and he also sang at the wedding. Yeah, yeah, he's cool He's like Ombach Yes, yes

Yeah One of the greatest martial artist Oh, what a great movie that was Yeah, yeah For martial arts technique That was like one of the first times Like real true Muay Thai Was exhibited in a film

Absolutely, yeah Super high level Yeah, yeah And Tony just My God Like he would do these incredible feats In front of you Just unbelievable

He could do a smet You do a somersault Hit you in the shoulder and just tap you like that with your foot, with his foot. Wow. He had that much control. It's unbelievable. Yeah.

Yeah. He was sick recently, but he's, I think he's overcoming, I think it was a C-word, man. Oh. Yeah. You know, I haven't talked to him in a minute. I just found out about it, like about, I don't know, a couple weeks ago. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he was, I knew he got thinner, but I'm hoping that he's better now.

Yeah, he's a legend. Yeah, he's something else. It's so fascinating to me how different parts of the world develop a different style of martial arts. And Thailand in particular, because of the fact that there was so much gambling and there were so many fights that they developed this very heavy leg kick, clinch, elbow, knee style. Yeah. It was just very different than a lot of the other styles. You know, and for a long time was really dominating in kickboxing. But then you're starting to see other styles, like particularly a lot of kids.

Kyokishin guys now. Yeah, yeah. Specifically out of Japan. Have you ever seen this kid, Yuki Yosa? Is he Kokeshin? Yeah, Kyokishin guy out of Japan who's dominating people. Oh, wow. He fights very different, man.

He's fucking up a lot of Thai guys with calf kicks. Okay, okay. Oh, my God, dude. No, I hadn't heard of, I heard. I just officiated a Kyokishin tournament yesterday. What was Sunday? Was that two days ago? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm still. connected in the Kyoksham, I mean, been doing that since I was a kid. Well, you did the whole thing. Like, where you have to fight like 100 guys in a day?

You did all that shit, right? I've done a 30 man. I haven't done a hundred men. I'm not having been, exaggerating, but it's like a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, which is the toughest. Honestly, it's a, I love it. It was the toughest thing I'd ever,

I ever had to really face because you come to a point where you want to give up and you have to just you know, kind of walk the burning sand. What is it like walking the next day? Man, I remember the first time I did a 10 man, and I had several knees on my legs, put it that way.

Because they destroy your legs so bad. Yeah. Right. I did a 20 man one other time and made the mistake of having a – I had like an energy drink beforehand, which is stupid because now my heart is racing higher than normal. And so it made it even harder. but somewhere around like inevitably you get to a place where I remember the 12th guy I'm like what the fuck are you doing why are you here you know but you have to dig deep and you got 18 more to go yeah yeah so I'm like man but honestly such a hard style yeah but man it's something about

getting you know because you're you're going to be faced with yourself you're going to be you want to quit and you have to just dig down and get to get you through it and there's nothing like it when you accomplish it because you know where you can go you know that most of the time you you tell yourself you're done you're not what a valuable lesson it is to know that about yourself yeah and you can't there's no substitute for that and it's just something that you just benefit. I remember the last time I did this, we had to train out in BAMF, Canada, because usually these things are in Japan, and people from all over the style, they come and they

train, you're like training eight hours a day, you've got these little lunch breaks, and I didn't think it through. I think the last one was like about five, six years ago. I, you know, wanted to challenge myself. I want to do this, but I'm by myself. And most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff. So you buy yourself, you're a movie star. Yeah, and I have the target on my back, but it's like, yeah. So, and it's like, we'd have a training thing, and then you got a certain amount of time to go eat, but then people want to take pictures of me, and I'm the last guy to get into the lunch thing. And then I was like, oh shit, I got 10 minutes to eat, and then I got to get back in the next training session. And you have a full stomach.

Yeah, and then you got like, I mean, it kind of sucked, but I taught myself something. I said, you know, you could be three hours in. I tell myself, I just got here. I just got here. And I dig deeper and whatever. And then the last few days, you're just fighting down to the last person. And, you know, there's people that's like, you know, they got their eye on you because, like, you know, I've got the bullseye on me. But the great thing is, dude, like I say, I learned a lot.

doing footwork with Frankie for years. I'm a boxing technique. I've got, you know, Benny Urquita's, Bill Wallace was my instructor. I've got so many things in my arsenal. And to test myself, it's such a,

it's such a great benefit to, you know, and it was weird because I was thinking, like, am I insane? Because I had a movie that I was going to be starting like a week later. I could have just been messing. stuff. I could have had a broken leg or whatever. A lot of times you leave with a souvenir, they call it. Like, you know, when you trade in Japan, a lot of the Japanese want to give you

a souvenir. That means a broken bone. But I had to try to, you know, overcome that. So in life, it's, especially in this kind of coddled life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much, right? Right. And, you know, yeah, I had to, you know, listen to my own complaints and shut the fuck up and get through it. Yeah. Oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures and you're doing this and I'm by myself. No, no. That's not.

The point is get through it, you know? Yeah. And I'm so glad to do that. And I always like to, that's why I like to train with champions and stuff because, you know, that's, you want to get through things. it should be, you should be tested. I mean, if I had a religion, a large part of it, if I was the head of my own religious cult, would be that men go through something.

There's a rites of passage. Yes. You've got to know how to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones. That to me is paramount. You also have to know what's inside of you. That's exactly right. And the only way to find out is to test it.

Exactly. Because otherwise you get these dudes have their chest pumped out and they're talking loud. Why are they doing that? Because they want to scare people off. Right. Because they don't know what they're capable of. They're terrified.

Yeah, and you can't hide from yourself. Right. And that's the thing. I'm not going to bullshit myself. I want to know, you know. And it's great. There's no substitute for going through that. And that's the thing that why I love fighters so much.

You know, you're basically naked to the world. Right. You have to dig down. You have to overcome things. That's why I love them so much because they're our gladiators. We live vicariously through them. And that's why I'm a little dogged about actors receiving those accolades when they haven't done it. Right.

You know what I mean? Myself included, I don't care if somebody says, oh, he's not a fighter. He's an actor. Fine, you should think that way. Right. But personally, it's something deeper for myself. And, you know, one person I think I identify with that as you, because I've seen you. I've seen you in the gyms back when it wasn't popular.

And we're doing it for reasons that are not, it had nothing to do with glory or, you know, ego or anything like that. It's just for self-improvement. Yeah. You know, and that's what it's about, man, because it's about overcoming obstacles. and your biggest obstacle in the world is yourself. Yeah. Yeah, my instructor when I was very young told me that martial arts

were a vehicle for developing your human potential. Exactly. Exactly. But it's so hard. Yeah. And people need something hard. Yeah, and what about Khabib's? What do Khabib's thing?

Like, what he says about discipline? Oh, that rant? I had to recall, oh, that. I don't know if that rant is real. Somebody told me that rant is AI. What? Yeah. Is it AI?

Damn it. What? Well, who cares? What? It's in Kabim's voice, and I bet Kabebebe would agree with every word it said. Yes, yes. Find that rant, because let's pretend that it's not AI. Or it may be one of AI's greatest contributions to martial arts.

Absolutely. Because becoming addicted to discipline. Yeah, every man addicted to something. Yeah. Oh, it's such a great rant. Here it is. Give me this. Give me this.

It's such a fucking great rant. Start from the beginning, too. Every man addicted to. something some smoke some drinks some chase girls some waste time but real man he addicted to discipline to early weeks to pray to training to silence discipline no need motivation discipline move without feeling discipline say I go anyway even when tired even when lonely discipline is best addiction you want strong life discipline build it you want peace discipline protected want respect discipline earn it

No shortcut. Only work. Be man with control. Not man with excuse. No cry. No blame. You want better life? Start with better habits. Discipline every day. Until discipline become you. Fucking yeah. Yeah. I don't give a damn if there's AI or whatever. Well, kudos to the AI person that put that together. Yeah. That's how he lives. Yeah. So even if it's AI, he would go, this is accurate. Yes. Well, I'll tell you what, man, that part of the world, that's. Dagestan, you want to talk about a hard part of the world that has developed in some of the baddest motherfuckers. Even in Muay, there's this cat coming out of Muay Thai at a Dagestan right now. Azadullah Imangazalev, who's like 22 years old, and he is fucking everybody up. A Dagestani Muay fighter.

Really? Who has his own style. He's this tall, lanky dude, who's one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now. A lot of people think he's the best striker alive. I think he's 22, 22 or 23 years old, and he's just fucking everybody up. He fights for one FC. Give me a highlight reel of this cat. Highlight reel didn't pop up right away, so I just want it.

That's it. Best Technical Striker in the world. That's it. Click on that. Give me some of this. Just started from the beginning. This dude, that tall dude with the beard, Azadullah Imangazalev. Watch this motherfucker.

What a style he has. I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude, perfect timing and measurement. And he just starts piecing dudes up. I think this is like this full fight. Yeah, well, I don't think so. If you scoot ahead, I think he fucks this guy up pretty quick. I've seen this fight. This guy, he catches with one shot, but some dude's not so lucky.

Oh, man. Yeah, that was one shot. But it keeps going and then give me the next fight. He just starts lighting. guys on, including ties. And they don't know what the fuck is going on. Because he fights different than them. I mean, he's a Muay Thai fighter.

He's got that straight, you know, he's exploiting the fact that they got so much round technique. Exactly. A lot of front kicks up the middle, and especially to the face. But also his spinning attacks, he's got wicked spinning attacks, man. And also

comes off angle a lot. His head's never on the center line. Super fucking technical. But, just lighting dudes on fire and just an attacker always attacking and has the benefit of that range that long range yeah i mean dude is incredible incredible and again 22 years old like look at so he's combining like taigmondo techniques karate techniques and precision moitai i mean The problem with this, not this style, but this form is that a lot of people aren't seeing it. One FC is doing a really good job of highlighting a lot of elite Muay Thai fighters.

You know, they have Tawan Chai over there and Sita Chai and all these like high level guys. But in America, this for whatever reason has not caught on. And the only way this guy is going to get the kind of attention that I think he deserves is if he gets into MMA. Boom. Yeah, like an axe kick. Everything is spinning back fist. Oh, man. His straight rights are no joke.

He's a laser beam. Yeah. He's so focused. He's so good, man. So good. Yeah. Yeah. So the Dagestanis are now entering into Muay Thai,

which is a terrible sign for all these Muay guys. Yeah, yeah, man. Those are hard as people, man. Hard people who start at a very young age. I mean, a very young age. And also, Dagestanis, now, because of Khabib and Islam, they all know that this is the pathway to greatness. Yes, yeah.

And so there's heroes, and there are coming to Ankleyev. There's all these guys that have been world champions out of Dagestan now. So it's like you're seeing all these guys come out of there, and some of these young guys that are coming up are so good. They're so good. But this is fascinating to me that you take a guy who's adapted this Thai style, but then morphed it into something that's different. And again, like you were saying, a lot of straight techniques.

Oh, yeah. Especially when you're a tall guy like that for the way. because I think he fights at 145. And when you're that tall at 145 and you've got those straight shots down the middle. His right is just like you can't really see it. Laser being. Right directly at him. But it's also

the hooks too. His hooks are coming around the guard. Right, right. Everything is precise and his accuracy is spectacular. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a student, obviously. I watch every fight I can. I watch kickboxing. I watch

Muay Thai. I watch Jiu-Jitsu matches. I watch it all. I'm always fascinated by these cats that stand out. And this guy just stands out. Yeah. Yeah, it's great when somebody knows how to use their length like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Yuki-Yoza, the Kyokishin

guy that I was telling you, totally different. This guy is doing a shelling up and getting in tight on guys and kicking the fuck out of their inner thigh, outer calf, lower, like, he's chopping at their legs. Even Thai guys don't know what to do, because because they're not used to guys kicking their calves like this guy.

Right. So he's inside going shin to shin. And you know as well as anybody, Kyokishin guys have some of the most conditioned shins in the world. They're always battering shin to shin. And this dude is just getting in. And you see in the second round, a lot of these Thai guys like, oh, fuck, I can't walk. I can't move right. My calves don't work anymore.

So the calf kick, which is really kind of revolutionized MMA. It's changed MMA. because one, two hard calf kicks, you're compromised. You're not moving right anymore. And you're not pivoting off that foot when you're punching. So your punching powers diminished. This yukyosa guy is like putting it on Thai guys with it. That's something.

I mean, especially for a Kiyokshin guy to, I mean, the knock with Kiyokishin, I've been doing it ever since I was a kid, is just that not developing facial, you know, facial blocks. Well, this guy is incorporated. He's incorporated Russian-style boxing. Oh. He's got Russian-style boxing with Kyokishin karate techniques. Well, yeah.

With that Russian-style boxing, that, they're really kind of mastered the non-telegraph kind of. Yeah. Because it looks like they're not going fast. Yuki-yo's a highlight reel. There's a bunch of fights with him and Thai guys. And, you know, the first round, Thai guys are doing their thing. And it looks, you know, like a normal fight. But the Yukiyosa just starts chopping at those cats.

inside, cat, cock, cock, cat. And he's like multiple kicks to the calf from in tight and close. Yeah, that's punishing. And you see guys, like, playing at, like, go ahead, kick me, kick me. And then after a while they're like, fuck, don't kick me anymore. They're trying to get macho with him, but then it's not working. But, yeah, like, what would it take to develop, like, calves? Like, your thighs.

You see how he's like, he's chopping when he's getting. Tight. Look at this, always. Oh. Look at how much he's utilizing the, like all the karate techniques, but also in tight just destroys guys' legs. But also spinning back kicks, all that other shit. But look at his boxing is excellent too. Ooh.

A lot of Muay Thai stuff, dumping people. But look at that. He's constantly kicking the inside of the leg. When they're committing to kicks, he's taking their legs out. This dude, one of my favorite guys to watch right now. Like, look, that's a Thai guy, man. He's just destroying their legs, man. Man.

An excellent movement. Yeah. And he comes out of a very high-level gym in Japan that's produced a lot of really Masasaki Nori, another guy who's like that. He's a very similar guy who beat Taiwan Chai recently. Like, these guys are just destroying people's legs. So they're utilizing a lot of the question mark kicks, a lot of the stuff that evolved in Kyokish.

but putting it into kickboxing, also with the toughness that is in, you know, a lot of the Kiochishin fighters. Yeah, I see them slip into like a Superman. Yeah. Which everybody's going to be susceptible for that. If you got a kick, a leg kick, that's that legitimate. Yeah, they're going to bite on that.

Right. It's going to be open for him. And then he uses a Superman punch. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And another very young guy. So there's these people that are exploiting, like, these holes and these styles because some of these Thai guys are so hard to beat.

By the time they're competing and they're 25 years old, they might have 150 fights. So much experience. But this cat's figuring them out, man. It's really interesting to watch. Yeah. Yeah. I would love the seat.

I wish there was like some kind of governing body that we'd get all the like some like superstars or whatever. Get this guy versus this guy from. Well, one is doing that a lot. But, you know, one, unfortunately. he's not that popular in America. What I love about one is they'll have grappling competitions, they'll have kickboxing, they'll have Muay Thai, and then they'll have MMA.

They'll have them all combined on one card. One is the one that Michael Javello is on, right? Well, he was on that. Michael Chappelle's not with one anymore. Michael Chappelle is one of the best commentators. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's excellent. Great guy, too.

I'll probably be seeing him in another, like three weeks. You go in Australia? Yeah, going to Australia. Nice. My wife and I, we did a tour. I do like seminars over there and, you know, meet and greets and stuff like that. We haven't done that in a while. But, yeah, got some really good fighters out there.

Oh, yeah, John Wayne Parr. Yeah. You know, some great fighters have come out of Australia. Yeah, so, yeah, we're going to have some fun out there. That's awesome. Yeah, they're in New Zealand. Oh, yeah, another hotbed. Oh, yeah.

Another hotbed for fighters. Well, just warrior cultures, you know. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. warrior history to this places. I've never met an Australian that I didn't like. I know. They're the nicest fucking people. Yeah, they're the coolest people.

They're friendly, easygoing. Yeah, you have rights of passage still. You know, places like that. I mean, that's one thing that is sad about United States. It's like we're not making men anymore. Not a lot of them. No, no. When they are, they stand out.

Yeah, you know, that's why it's like a lot of times in these movies, If you have an alpha male, a lot of times that American alpha male is being played by an Australian or somebody from me. Chris Amherst. Yeah. It's like, it's very rarely an American. It's like such a trip, man. Well, masculinity is demonized here for some strange reason over the last couple of decades. I saw the beginning of a lot of it because, you know, like I said, I was a school teacher.

And I was right on the forefront seeing everybody gets a trophy. You know, these kids, you know, it's about their self-esteem and you've got to protect them. I'm like, come on. And, you know, taking away competition. Yeah. That just, I saw the beginning of that shit. And it's just so bad.

And then these kids don't know how to deal with loss or anything, and they end up shooting a classroom. Right. You know, it's, yeah. Dealing with loss is one of the most important lessons you could ever learn. If you want to get better, lose. Yeah. Losing is the best medicine.

because you lose you. I don't ever want to feel that again. And then you start thinking about all the things you cut corners on, all the things that you didn't do. What can I do differently to make sure that never happens again? I never feel that feeling. Or you quit. Those are the two options. Either you get way better or you quit. But winning sometimes you don't learn. You know, you go, well, I'm doing the right thing. I'm winning. I'm getting better. I'm developing confidence. That's good. But man, sometimes a loss is the best medicine. Yeah, man, I realized something when I was, you know, I was born with some gifts, okay. I did, one thing that got me in the college is decathlon. As a fluke, I jumped into a race against one of the fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right? And that was just a fluke. And the coach saw that, the track coach saw that and was like, oh, my God, you're fucking running for the school. Listen, I was like, oh, okay. I was just like, I didn't have anybody, any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that.

And next thing you know, I'm on the track team. And I started, I mean, I was really good. And then I wound up going to college because of that. And incidentally, that's the stuff that really kind of taught me to kind of evolve my martial arts. Because nowhere is there a benefit of, like, cutting off fractions of seconds in movement like track. Like when I'm doing the shot put. Well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous. And all they had to do is stick their arm out and their arc was going to be better than mine.

Well, I had to generate enough power to go at a 45 degree angle. and in inertia and all that to get past them. And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, all your motion has to go forward. If you go backward, you're going to be a step behind everybody. So as far as efficiency of motion, all the things I had to do with track, I started applying and fighting.

And that's what kind of gave me cheat codes into things to where being super efficient, really helped, right? And so one thing would, like, kind of help the other. But, like, yeah, a lot of, you know, my whole track thing was a great benefit. But I did learn that I was kind of in a way like the Bo Jackson's or the Herschel Walkers, I was gifted. And so when I would fight, I was, you know, I was.

big guy that was fast and it didn't you know that was kind of rare so fighting was easy to me but I learned that when I was as the celebrated fighter that was less of a good martial artist because then I kind of would kind of flake off other things like I wasn't I didn't try as hard as other people and that's another thing I don't know Khabib really said but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people, a lot of people who are gifted, were not the best fighters. Yeah, that is a quote from him. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. And I took that, you know, that same thing because I realized, dude, you're doing it wrong. You're, I mean, my philosophy was like, I feel, I adapted the philosophy of, okay, say, this kid, Sean, is 140 pounds. and there's me. And it takes me a thousand kicks to become fatigued. And it takes him 100 kicks to become fatigued. And he pushes to 120.

And I push to 1001. Who's the better martial artist? He is. Because he's pushed into his comfort zone. He's pushing himself further. What if he one day gets to a thousand? For him to go from 100 to a thousand, that's going to be a quality 900 that I don't have.

Me being the gifted one. I'm looking at it using the comparative method saying, well, you know, I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball rim. You know, I had that ability. But when I started thinking about, well, what I compare myself to other people, that was the wrong thing.

So I said, no, I'm going to be like, Sean, I want to train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else. And that really taught me something as far as, like, again, why I put myself through these things. And the benefit of it by really, like, what the martial arts really teaches is, you know, in the fact that, yeah, I had these gifts. but if I if I use those gifts as a crutch I'm limiting what I can be Right you're limiting your potential

Exactly Yeah And oftentimes it's too easy For the gifted guys And so they kind of slack off Right yeah so yeah That's that's and I realize That's what I was doing

They also are not as comfortable with struggle Absolutely And being comfortable with struggle It's a very important part of growth Yeah yeah And it's a mixed message It's because we start to admire the freak sometimes. As men, we celebrate the pugilus a lot.

And that's kind of a thing that came full circle to where, okay, yeah, I'm able to do these things. But is that really me? Is that the limit of what I can be? By having someone else go, oh yeah, you can do this or that. That's kind of a, that's not really the, the crux of it. Right.

You know what I mean? Right. And it's really about like, yeah, there's going to be people that's going to praise what you can do physically. But is that, but I realized there was a point where that was kind of retarding where I could be mentally and what I can really become. We also have a responsibility to those gifts, right? Because if you are gifted athletically, you have a responsibility of achieving the full potential

because you've been given this thing by genetics, by life, by God, this thing where you are faster, you move quicker, you have more explosive power. But are you going to harness that gift and allow it to reach its full potential? When you do that, then you get a Mike Tyson. When you do that, then you get a Michael Jordan. You do that, then you get an elite of the elite. You get what David Goggins always like to call uncommon amongst uncommon men. Right, right.

And that's the real hard thing to do. Because so many of these really gifted guys in the gym, they always kind of peter off and disappear. And when they were in a fight where they fight another gifted guy that maybe trained a little harder at them and maybe he's got a little bit more experience, they realize I'm, man, I don't want to struggle like that. I don't like that feeling. I like beating up guys in the gym that are below me. Yeah, and then you got to deal with that person in the mirror. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard for guys.

They're the hammer their whole life, and then one day they're the nail. Yeah. And you see guys that are like really elite that are dominating, and then one day they get fucked up, and then you never see him again. It's oftentimes. But then you'll see the guy who, like, gets fucked up a bunch of times and keep showing up. He keeps showing up. It keeps learning. And then you realize, like, oh, this guy is now elite.

Yeah. are the true heroes to me. Right. You know? Right. You know, there's people I don't want, you know, sometimes you get in trouble pointing out people. Like, I don't want to say somebody like Izzy or whatever.

But like you see the people who are used to having that ability over other people and when it gets hard. Right. Right. And then it's like even sometimes there's a talk about even Tyson. And, you know, as just people are just. spectators, when you go, oh man, this guy's so gifted. Now, some of the knock has been that when it became hard,

you hadn't seen him dig down and overcome that thing. Right, right. You know, because a lot of times when it got hard, it was like he just, you know, kind of tapped out. Yeah. And so that's something that, you know, not to disparage him, But just as people are looking at life, we look at, you know, we look at those things and we can take a lot of meaning from that and apply that and say, oh, wow, is, I mean, that's on him to say, oh, was that the case? I think it is something that, I don't know.

I think with Mike, it's a very special case because I think he had the elite coaching in the beginning with Customato and training. And then when Cust died, he was kind of left with all this amazing ability that he had developed when he was young, but not with the elite coaching. Like so if Mike had left when Custamato died, if he had then went to Emmanuel Stewart or if the, you know what I'm saying? If he had then went to an elite boxing coach and had someone analyze his style and someone he really respected. Yes, absolutely. That he could still maintain that same level of discipline when he was the 21-year-old dominating the world. Oh, my God. But he had so much pressure on him.

So much. Because, you know, I had to play him, so I had to study everything he did. And it's interesting because, oh, my God, like, I always viewed him as somebody who was always looking for a father figure. Yes. And I would study him, and, you know, with Customato, he would dress like Customado. He was a young black guy from Brooklyn with suspenders. Right. You know, in their caveat.

And then when Customato was gone, he was around Kevin Rooney, and Kevin Rooney had this really fast way of talking. And it seemed like he adapted that. And when he was with, with, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, shoot, uh, shoot, why, why am I blanking? The, the other train, the other manager. Jim Jacobs? Jim Jacobs.

you know, Jim Jacobs was married. And I think marriage became important to him at that point because he was really under the umbrella of Jim Jacobs. And then when he was with... Robin Givens. With Don King. Oh, yeah. The N-word is every third word out of his mouth,

very much like Don King. He goes to prison. He's got two father figures on him. Miles-Saint-Tung and he's got Arthur Ash on another shoulder. And I would just notice that like even speech patterns would change. You know, and I looked at him as, wow, here's a guy that I felt like I identified with a great deal because coming from the same kind of place. But yeah, it's interesting because I think a lot of people don't know how much struggle he had to deal with. Because people think that Kevin Rooney was kind of a savior in that sense.

situation when he wasn't. Kevin Rooney explained to me directly that he, he says, if you ever see Mike, please, please, um, apologize for me because when, I mean, when Mike was, was married to Robin Givens, he didn't want to do this interview. And then turn around, Kevin Rooney did the interview. And Kevin Rooney was like, I really messed up when I did that. And Kevin Rooney even told me that when, at the Spinks alone, Kevin made like over a million dollars. He left that casino owing. Mike had to bail him out, like so many times. And so people thought, oh, Kevin Rooney is in control.

No, Mike was, I mean, he had so much pressure on him. And I think with Don King trying to hire Mike's cohorts to help out, if he's going to hang out with him anyway, to try to just do that. He had so much, this dude has so much pressure on him. It's unbelievable. And Don King definitely took advantage of that.

Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. You know, because I knew Don from, because I was always in the fight camps with Frankie Lows. In fact, that's how I got to first meet Mike Tyson. When Mike was in prison, Frankie put Mike and I on the phone together. And so I would, you know,

do my little kind of interviewing of Mike while he was in prison because I was going to do, I was going to be playing him. So I wanted the whole story. Right. And, you know,

and I went to Catskills on my own and knocked on that door and spent time with the people he grew up with in that house. Oh, wow. You know, so I learned a lot. There's a lot that, you know, the public doesn't know.

And I think he was concerned about, you know, coming out. And, you know, it didn't. And so it was really interesting. I was front and center on how much pressure this guy had to deal with. He had to kind of develop with the whole world looking over his shoulder. Yeah. And he was 20, which is crazy.

Youngest ever heavyweight champion of the world. He went from being a 13-year-old kid with no family to being adopted by this guy who's not just training him, but also hypnotizing him. And then he's got Jim Jacobs who exposes him to this library of all the greatest fighters of all time. He's watching video footage of it. Bill Caten, yeah, Bill Caten and Jim, yeah. It's an extraordinary story because it's like unlike anyone else's.

Like the environment that he was exposed to and the way it produced this guy who was unlike any heavyweight before. I mean, in his prime, I always point to the Marvis Fraser fight. I always tell people you want to see like this. scariest motherfucker that ever stepped into the ring. Mike Tyson versus Marvis Frazier. He was just undeniable, just undeniable. But that pressure, the kind of pressure that no one could explain what that's like. There's no internet back then.

So there's not as many famous people. So like who's going to, who's he going to relate to? Who's going to tell him what this is like? There's no one like him. You had Muhammad Ali, you had a few other guys that could maybe tell him. what it was like. But for the most part, he's got no roadmap. And he's out there

in this world of superstardom. We could do whatever the fuck he wants. Everywhere he goes, people are screaming and cheering. And he's knocking everybody out in the first round. Yeah, yeah. The pressure on that, man. And didn't have to fight Holyfield. Right.

A guy who was really kind of more like a big brother to him throughout his life. You know, his professional life. Because, you know, Holyfield was he was a cruiser way you know and Holyfield was the type of guy

how you do it with Mike you check on him and all that type of stuff then he has to fight this guy and there was deep down like he's got to fight this guy who's got this reputation as a holy man

and he's all this type of stuff and then I remember being at that fight and I remember the press conference and Mike was like really manufacturing this hatred that I was like like that's not real like he's trying to dig down to really get this edge to really hate

holyfield and i was like i thought that was a mistake but um and i don't think the psychological he was in his his game right holyfield had an edge on it yeah i think there's also the fact the holy man thing was a big deal like holyfield had this incredible belief in god and he really believed that You know, God was looking out for him and he was going to go in there and couldn't be deterred. Dude, the third round, I mean, I looked for course. I studied all this stuff on Mike Tyson. Third round of that first fight got chills because think about it. He heard something that he never heard his entire career.

Everybody started chanting for the other guy. Right. Holy field. Holy field. And I swear to you, I saw just. just the air come out of this guy. Yeah. And it was like, I've done all of this,

and they're chanting for this man. And how gracious he was, how Tyson was at the end, I felt like that's not a new thought. You kind of had that opinion of him going into this. Well, Holyfield had been through the wars, right? He had those wars with Riddick Bow. He had the first war with Dwight Muhammad Kauwi.

Remember that fight? Yeah. Oh, my God. Go back and watch that fight. That fight. He had the war with Bert Cooper. He had wars. And Holyfield was unflappable.

He's like, I don't know why Mike Chene is about me, but. He's just like, he's just like. He never got angry. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how do you? It's hard to maintain, like, anger for that dude. Right.

He's just like, okay. Well, that's also terrifying, too, because you know you can't get in there. You're trying to get in that head, and it's like, you're not getting in there. God's in there. Yeah, and then it's like, if you look at it, you know, Mike Tyson was committing to every first blow. Yep. Holyfield is a counterfighter. Fake him, let him throw that counter, and you got him.

Yeah. And I was like, I think normally Mike knows this. Holyfield's center of gravity, so different. He's a thin-legged, big up top. Mike should be able to push him easily. Easily. I didn't see the things that I normally saw for Mike Tyson in that fight, which made me feel like this is a psychological component.

It's a psychological component, but it's also a training component because, again, he wasn't with an elite trainer at that time. It wasn't the same as him being trained by Costumano. It wasn't the same. He didn't have the bobbing and weaving style that he used to have. Did you remember when he caught, Holyfield with the body shot in the uppercut? Yeah.

And just like, basically you almost said, you saw, finish him. Yeah. But he just chilled? Do you remember that moment? I don't specifically. Yeah, there's a moment. There's a moment like that. Well, he hurt him.

And Holyfield looked like it's like, yeah, but Holyfield would rebound. I mean, the really bow fights. But you look at Tyson. You look at almost everything he's done. I thought I was about to see the beginning of the end. And I'm like, what the, what the, I remember being there going, why isn't he jumping on him? You know, hey, hey, maybe I'm wrong or whatever, but I swear I saw that moment. And I remember going, what's going on?

Why is he not jumping on him? And it's interesting. It's interesting. Psychology plays a big role in how you feel about the opponent, and the opponent essentially holds up a mirror. and it allows you to look at yourself. Yeah, yeah. And when he's comparing himself to this holy man, he probably didn't like it.

Joe, you know, I think that's the way I thought about it. Of course, who am I to do? But this is my opinion. Those dudes with that kind of character like Holyfield had at the time, those are scary guys. Because, like, they can't be broken mentally.

Right, right. They're always good. And if you try to break him physically and he rebounds, like, oh, God. How much of them have left in the tank? Yeah. Yeah. How many more of these shots can I take?

Yeah. Now, it's different if somebody, like, taunted you. Mm-hmm. Now, you can, you know, manufacture, like, you know. Right, right. But when the guy's just like, okay, I'm just doing my thing. But you kind of start going. Oh, is it me?

Right. Because you don't, you know, it's like, that's the, that's when you had a fade or is. Right. Somebody like that. It's just like, like this. It's like, you drown yourself. Stoic. Because I can't derive nothing from him.

He's like... Oh, he was the best at it. Yeah, yeah. Fador was the best at it. Fador would be the middle of the most chaotic war. And it looked like he was just sipping a cup of coffee. Yeah. It was crazy.

There was no one like that guy. He's one of the most unique characters. I think we were robbed of one of the greatest heavyweight matchups of all time when they never figured out how to put Cain Velazquez versus Fador when they were both in their primes. Man. Kane Velazquez is the skill. scariest person I've ever seen as far as I'm concerned. Like if there was one guy that, like, because I pride myself, I'd get in the ring with anybody.

That guy, man. He never got tired. Man, he's just like a jargonaut. He had cardio for a heavyweight that was like a marathon runner. It didn't make any sense. He was a 240-pound guy who never got tired. Yeah, didn't. Perfect technique.

Yeah, and I think the fights with. Junior dos Santos. I feel like they ruined each other. Yes. I feel like they ruined each other. Well, I think certainly ruined Jr. Especially the second fight. The first fight, Jr., the first fight,

the first fight, Kane should have never took that fight. Kane had to take that fight because it was on Fox. It was a big deal. It was the main event of the Fox, the first Fox card, and Kane blew his knee out. So if you look at that fight, Kane's wearing a knee brace. His knee was fucked up.

Like, his meniscus was torn. He was all fucked up. He couldn't anchor on it. He couldn't really post on it. And then he couldn't get out of the way. Junior caught him with a big right hand, cracked him, dropped him, stopped him. And then he comes back. Here it is.

Here's Tyson versus Holyfield. Boom. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah, but Holyfield's still there. He's still there. Remember, he has a chance. He has a chance right now. Vander's hurt.

You heard what he said, right? Yeah. But that took some win out of the vienna right away. Biggest round for Mike yet. But the thing of it was. about Evander is? Evander was always there. He had been through these kind of fights before.

But I don't know where I am, but I was there. And something about seeing that, I felt like, oh, he's about to take him out. But I think because Evander rebounded and Evander had a history of rebounding. Oh, sure, sure. Absolutely. Of wars. Absolutely. Especially the rig both fights.

It still doesn't change the fact that there was, I feel like there was an opportunity. Yeah. And he, that was a very unt Tyson-like. situation. I just don't think Tyson was Tyson anymore by this time. I mean, I think he was a one-punch guy by this time. He wasn't cutting those crazy angles. We would slide off to the side and rip the body and go, he was standing right in front of guys. Yeah. He lost a lot of what made him special, which was the speed of combinations and the movement. The movement is primarily because he couldn't have, he couldn't have never gotten that far if he didn't do that. Show that Marvis Frazier fight.

Show that Marvis Frazier fight. Tyson versus Marvis Frazier is my favorite story. favorite Tyson performance. Because Marvis Frazier looked like he was going to a funeral at the beginning of the fight. Look at him. I mean, you feel the energy from his face. And he didn't play the covenant right after this with the grizzly bear just mawling the hell of. It's the same thing.

Well, here it is. He's just all over, Marvis, like from the beginning. This was on ABC Wide World of Sports. I remember watching this at home. But look at the bobbing and the weaving. It's not just right in front of them. angles. Like, what are here?

Boom! Oh, man. Oh, man. That was when he was the champ. I mean, he wasn't the champ yet, but he was the champ. He was about to fight Trevor Burbank, but everybody was like, oh, my God, he's real. Yeah, here's the thing that sparked some controversy. Mike Tyson versus Muhammad Ali.

It depends on which Tyson and which Muhammad Ali. Well, the best of life. You know, of course, he got to say the best. The best. Clay. I think the best was when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams. To me, I always tell people, like, you want to know Ali before they took his title away, before they put him on the shelf for three years because he wouldn't fight in Vietnam. Watch Cleveland Big Cat Williams, because Cleveland was a big, scary power puncher, and Muhammad Ali was just dancing around him, dancing around. Was he popping him from a distance? That's the thing about Muhammad Ali. People don't realize he was like the biggest guy in the ring. You know, he was only four pounds different than, than, um, you know, he was only four pounds different than, than, um, he was. form it. People don't realize

because he moves around, the way he moves. Back then, but in the Cleveland Big Cat Williams days, he was lighter. Wasn't he? He was only, yeah, he was only like 2.15 or 220. And Cleveland Williams was what? It was big. Look at the size of Cleveland. Look at his back. Look at the back on Cleveland. And look at the legs, though.

Yeah, but he was a power puncher, man. You watch some of his back. Cleveland was a scary dude, man. He might be lean. He might be lean, but Muhammad Ali is a big dude. Oh, he's definitely a big dude. I think. I think he's bigger than that guy. Maybe. But look at the movement, man.

My God. Oh, absolutely. So this movement was absent when he came back three years later. He never fought like this again. And when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, Cleveland just did not know where he was. I don't know how much. He was 212. Williams was 210 that way in.

Oh, okay. Well, dudes were smaller back then. Like, think about Rocky Marciano. He was only 185. But the thing is, people don't realize because he's fighting like a lighter guy. You got a bigger guy. Hitting guys, especially, you know, you trick people to coming in, and that magnifies everything. Yeah, sort of, but they're basically the same size.

But 212 is fairly small. This is smaller than Mike was when Mike was in his prime, and, you know, Mike was only like 215, 220. Yeah, 221. So that's why it's interesting because, like, Mike moved his head, and the people who did the best against Muhammad Ali was Joe Frazier and Ken Norton who moved their heads. Yes, but again, these are the guys after this three-year break. This three-year break, Muhammad Ali didn't train. He didn't train at all for three years.

When you watch when he comes back after that, like, come on, son. Yeah. The speed. And Cleveland's like, what the fuck is going on? But speed and a bigger guy. That's the thing.

That's the thing. Because, like, you know, you thought when we were going in this clip, that he was bigger than Muhammad Ali. I did. Yeah, so, but the thing is, like, people don't realize how big Muhammad Ali actually was.

Because George Foreman, you know, a monster. Look at these combinations. And they were, his, his legs are bigger than George Foreman's. Right. And we know where the power is, right? Well, George Foreman, what did he weigh when they fought? 2.18 and, I think, Muhammad Ali was 214. They were like, right. So the actual fight day, who know who was heavier? Right. Right, right, right. But I'm just saying it's interesting.

It is. Because you got a guy the same size as Foreman moving faster. Yeah, but he didn't in that fight. And that fight he mostly laid on the ropes, remember? I mean, he did a lot of... though, but I'm seeing he's still a big... 220. 212 to 2.20.

Pretty close. Yeah, I've seen it different. I've seen that 2.80. He wasn't the same guy. If you fought, if George Foreman of that time fought Cleveland, the Muhammad Ali that fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, is a completely different fight.

Formans getting pieced up. Yeah, yeah. Formans getting pieced up from the outside. And Ali was just picking him apart and moving and Foreman swinging at air. He was like nobody else before him, man. He was so different. He was so different.

But those three years when he had to take three years, and he didn't train at all, and then he came back and now he's 30. And, you know, no strength and conditioning for three years, no running, no boxing. His body looked different. Who did he fight when he came back? He fought... Lyle? No, that white dude had horrible brain damage towards him.

Cobb? Jerry Cooney. Oh, Jerry Cooney. No, no, no, Jerry Quarry. Okay. Yeah, when he fought Jerry Quarry, see if you find that fight. Now, look at his body when you see it. You see his body smooth.

His footwork doesn't look the same. His timing is off. He had a ton of ring rust. He just didn't... What's that, Jimmy? He just didn't look the same. He didn't look the same. And I think that three years, they fucked him, man.

They fucked him. They fucked him. And, I mean, look, it made him a cultural hero because he wasn't willing to fight in Vietnam. And, you know, he famously... Like, look at his body. It's different, man. He's just not the same guy anymore.

He's not moving as fast. And Jerry Quarry was just a really tough guy who was famous for being able to take a beating. Yeah. Like, Ali didn't have the endurance anymore. Like, look at him. He's just not the same guy anymore, man. Yeah. He was a shadow of what he was before.

He still went on to win the title. He still went on. But I always wonder what he would have been if those three years were not stolen from him. in his peak, in his prime. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that would have been something else. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it's one interesting thing. Another thing, interesting thing about Ali is, like, try to find him throwing a body shot. Right. Not a lot of those. No, he almost never did. Maybe a jab or two to the body. Like, he, like, it's true. It'd be interesting to count up all the body shots throughout his whole career.

And you might get. 10. That's true. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it is. That's why, I mean, that's why when we, you know, when people talk about the greatest boxer, of course, he's the one of greatest human beings, greatest Americans ever. Right, right. Like just, man, the stuff he's, he put it, talk about putting himself out there for, you know, as far as a servant of the world. There's nobody, I don't know, anybody who compares to him. Also, the personality, when he would go on talk shows and he was just so fun. How sharp was it?

Oh, so sharp. All those things were memorized. One of my favorite ones was Howard Cocell said, you're very truculent champ and he goes, whatever truckingling that means if it's good on that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was just a different human being.

He was not scared of anything, man. There's some stuff that, some interviews that he's being real controversial. Like he would actually talk shit to people and talk about whooping their ass. Just recently I've seen some stuff that I was like wow I hadn't seen this one.

Oh yeah, if anybody disrespected him, if anybody like if they wouldn't call him Muhammad Ali, if they were calling him Cassius Clay, he would fuck them up. What's my name? Pop! What's my name? Pop! Yeah. Yeah. He was a special person and just culturally like one of the most significant figures

ever in the history of America. Because at a time where the world was torn, like why the fucker We in Vietnam. And this one guy says, I'm not doing this. Yeah. And then they're like, okay, we're going to strip your title away from you. And then for three years, he was persecuted and the whole world was watching and they eventually

let him fight again. Yeah. By then we had realized that Vietnam was not a just war. And this guy, they had taken three years of his life away from him because he wasn't willing to participate. Yeah, man. What a hero, man. A real hero.

A real hero. And, like, again, a cultural icon, like just a different kind of human. being that inspired so many people outside of fighting. My parents were hippies, and my parents wanted to watch the Leon Spinks rematch when he fought Leon Spinks. Like, everybody was sitting around.

I'm like, I remember being a little kid going, I can't believe they want to watch this fight. This is so weird to me. Like, they want to watch a fight. Because that's who Muhammad Outly was. He was just different. He meant something to America in a way that no other fighter before or since

has. Yeah. Man, There's so many, man, just even for equal rights and just for everything. Yeah, so much that I really can't think of many people that has been more significant. No, and many people think. Many people think about like, what do you stand for? I mean, this guy, he could have easily just taken some stupid fucking desk job with the army or something. Yeah. Easily, yeah.

I mean, I did a movie last year in Louisville, Kentucky. and while I was there, I went and visited Muhammad Ali's gravesite. And, dude, man, I didn't expect it. I was just, let me see it. And, dude, I couldn't talk for two hours afterwards. I just sat in my car and just all just got overwhelmed just to think what this man really meant. Yeah. It was just like, it jacked me up.

I didn't expect that. Yeah, I can't think of another fighter that meant more, like in terms of like a cultural icon. Can't think of another one. Yeah. put his life on the line and just was so, you know. And that's a cautionary tale to fighters, too, about the end, about fighting too long. Look, no one ever forgave Larry Holmes for beating him up. Larry Holmes, one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, never got his just due.

Right. Because people never forgave him for beating up, Ali. Yeah, yeah, honestly, yeah. Which is crazy. Yeah. You know, it's not fair. Didn't make any sense. I mean, Muhammad Ali was trying to beat him up.

But, you know, everybody knew, even though Ali was fighting, everybody knew. Everybody knew it was over. He wasn't the Muhammad Ali of old. Yeah, and he wanted to call it into the fight, man. Holmes was like, why am I doing this? Right, yeah. Yeah, that was sad. And he wasn't, Holmes were never that much of a likable presence,

and it's hard to come behind Muhammad Ali. Right. He was never that kind of a person. Yeah, yeah. But damn, did he have a jab? Oh, that's the best jab around. Ooh, Larry, even when he fought Tyson, he was popping him with that jab.

And you made you wonder, God, I wonder what Larry would have done in his prime. This would have been an exciting fight to see in his prime. No, the two of them? Yeah. I still don't think you would have been able to beat Prime Tyson. No. But it was wild to see. Tyson made his bones on fighting bigger guys and making them miss and pay for it.

Yeah. Yeah. So he load up on his legs. A lot of times when he's landing, he's in the air. Yep. He's in the air, man. It was the speed, too. Middleweight speed and a heavyweight body.

He's the fastest. Well, he was one of the fastest heavyweights. I think there's one guy. Ousek's pretty damn fast. Oh, Usook's nice. Yeah. Oh, man. Talk about a person.

He's funny. That's a funny dude. Oh, he's a character. Yeah, yeah. And you want to talk about technique, too. And another guy was trained by the same guy as Lomachenko. Lomachenko's father trained Usock. Oh, cool, cool.

Which is also why he's like a heavyweight Usoc. I remember a heavyweight Lomachenko. Yeah, yeah. He's got that footwork and movement and that Russian style, you know, Ukrainian-Russian styles. Like those guys, they figured out movement and footwork. Beval has it, you know? Yeah, yeah.

No, like, we're very fortunate that we can see all of these incredible human beings that have, you know, risked their life and their health and put it on the line so we could see true lessons about character and technique. Yeah, I just wish heavyweights would concentrate on technique a little bit more. Right. I mean, we're missing out on. Well, maybe Ussick's changing people's perspective on that. Maybe they're realizing, like, wow, you can't just won to everybody.

Yeah, I think what happened is there's another thing in this country. It's like people, I think, they're not following boxing. They're not getting into boxing. A lot of these guys are going for the money. They'll try to play football or whatever. Well, since Deonté, we haven't really had a heavyweight boxing champion in America. Deonté was our last heavyweight boxing champion. Yeah.

And talk about technique is, yeah. Not the best. But, you know, he had what Teddy Atlas likes to call the eraser. Right, yeah, true. He can make all the mistakes of the world. He had that one eraser, blam! Yeah, yeah. Deontes were the craziest knockout punchers that's ever existed.

Yeah. It was nuts. He just, he hit you moving backwards and flatline here. We weighed like 12. Great, 209 when he fought Tyson Fury the first time. 209. Yeah, he and I went shooting before. Like, we've done some tactical stuff together.

together. Really nice guy. Yeah. I love talking to him on the podcast. Oh, yeah. He's great. I don't know. Like, just work on this technique, right?

It's like, geez, I don't get it. Yeah, I don't know, man. It's too late. It's what you do for a living. I think he relied on that gift for so long. Because, I mean, look at the gift, though. I mean, at one point in time, he was like 39 knockouts out of 40 fights. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's like he's... I know. Nuts. But it didn't matter when it landed. When it landed, you couldn't do shit about all that sloppiness. I still wouldn't mind seeing AJ versus him. I still wouldn't mind that either.

That'd be interesting. I think after the car accident, AJ might be done, though, because he was, you know, he was knocked unconscious in that car accident. I heard really bad. I heard he was out for like 10 minutes. Really? Yeah. And his two friends died, you know, I mean.

And after all his fights, and, you know, that is the last thing he needed is some extracurricular brain damage like that. True, true. And then also losing his two great friends like that, it's got to be, you know, that's just fucking crazy. Yeah, that's a sad thing. But I think, you know, if he's my brother or my cousin, I'd be like, you got to go through this. You can't let, you know, you got to, for their sake. Yeah. What would your friends want you to do?

Wow. We'll see. Yeah, yeah. I hope for the best because, again, he's another one of our warriors, man. He puts his body and life on the line for us, man. It's like, that's our modern-day gladiator, you know? I know. There's nothing like a fight.

It's different than any kind of sporting event. It's very different. And the losses are way different. They're way harder to deal with. And the victories are way greater. Yeah, you know, one of my best friends being Frankie, man. So I got a front seat to all of that. You know, Frankie knocked out Roy Jones back in the amateurs.

And, you know, I wanted to see him get his due. I mean, he was WBA Super Middleweight champ for five years straight. But, you know, it was a front seat to the boxing life and the fighting life. It's a hard world. Yeah, it is. It's a hard world in the end is not pretty. And there's no one there for you. In the end, I was watching this piece on Bobby Chaconne.

who was a great fighter in the 80s. And, oh, my God, in the end, it was horrible. It was just horrible watching just the deterioration and the brain damage and no one there for you. And that's a lot of guys. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, your brain, you know, it doesn't regenerate. You know, then...

No, it only gets worse. Yeah. And if you're experiencing brain damage now, I mean, without treatment, there's some treatments now that they're able to use to help regenerate some neural tissue and it's not, but there's a certain amount you never come back from. Yeah, yeah. I know my son,

one of my, uh, one of my sons is, I mean, he's, he's been going to, what did he call it? This is like a stimulation thing. Mm-hmm. The magnetic stuff? Yeah, it's, um, man, forget. But he's actually, it's actually helped him out of a great deal. I mean, he, he, he kind of went a,

kind of an interesting route, like kind of experimented with some stuff before, but now he's kind of come back. He's turned him around. What happened to him? Yeah, he kind of was like, he didn't get in high, doing,

he kind of went that route for a minute. But it's, but he's gotten, I've just actually seeing things turn around with this, I don't know why I can't remember, but it's this brain stimulation thing. and it kind of rewires you.

Mm-hmm. You know? You know, I think I heard you talk about the... Ibikine? You know, NED and those type of things. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, there's things that are going... There are things that can help, but you've got to be very vigilant about it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I've been connected to a lot of the anti-aging type of stuff. We're getting up there, brother. Yeah, it's fascinating. A good friend of mine is Bob Goldman. I don't know if you know Dr. Bob Goldman is. No.

Yeah, he should have him on his show. He's an interesting guy. He runs A4M. I don't know if you ever heard. It's this conglomerate of doctors all around the world that's dedicated to fixing causes of diseases, not just chasing around the symptoms and stuff. And so it's like very much in the face of the pharmaceutical companies, are really dedicated to, like, taking care of things from the source.

Okay. And it's been going on for a while, man. It's like they have, like, about six of these things a year. One of the biggest ones is in Vegas. But, like, you look it up, A4M. Okay. Check it out. So, Celone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, he's been, you know, dealing with them.

I've actually tried to, I've hooked. Nick Diaz up with him to help him. Because, you know, they're on the forefront of the new medicine type stuff. So, yeah, he's, it's an interesting thing. A4M, they have a lot of doctors who will be given lectures on all the most innovative stuff. And they have all the newest equipment that's just like a, just the biggest kind of, I don't know, like, like, rooms, huge rooms

full of all the most collaborating. Yeah. It's a good time to be an older person. There's a lot of science behind it now. They have the belief that you should be in your, you know, live into 100 but healthily.

Yeah. They really believe that. And I, you know. If it's ever been possible, now's the time. Oh yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

My doctor, Dr. Alavizos, my doctor 63, he looks like a freaking superhero. That's awesome. Yeah. Sixty-three-year-old guys when we were kids were basically dead. Yeah. They were just old men, frail, feeble.

Yeah, it's interesting, man. It's like, yeah, we're getting older. But knock wood, man, I've been very fortunate. I've been very lucky. Yeah, me too. This is a good time to be an older person. Yeah. Man, you look good, man.

Thank you, too. Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm a little older than you, though. How old are you? Yeah. I'm 58. Oh, I'm a little older. Oh, yeah, I'm a little older than you.

Okay. Yeah. Well, you look great. Well, thank you. You look great then if you're older than me. I feel, I feel good. Yeah. I feel very good.

It's a really good. Well, there's so much information now on how to maintain your body and how to maintain your health. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Hey, brother.

It's been great. I'm glad we got together. It's a lot of fun. Me too. Me too, man. Again, man, I got to tell you, man, how proud I am. Joe from the gym is doing his thing, man, in a big way. I feel the same about you.

Yeah. Well, thank you, man. This is a lot of fun. Yeah, I mean, thanks for having me. We'll do it again sometime. Yeah, we got to. All right, for sure. Definitely.

All right. Bye, everybody.