The Joe Rogan Experience - #277 - Victor Conte

Episode Date: October 18, 2012

Joe sits down with Victor Conte.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. Never feels real until the music plays. Then it feels like we're really doing this. Thank you, sir, for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. You're a very controversial figure for people who don't know. You're the guy who is, correct me if I'm wrong, you were the head, Balco, is that the

correct way to spell it? Balco. Balco. You were at the head of the Balco Labs that were making these undetectable steroids, and you were hooking athletes up and advising them how to beat the system. How did you get involved in that? You know, my life mantra, Joe, is if it's not fun, I don't do it. It was fun? So don't do it.

It was fun? So I was having fun. Right. It was the challenge of being in the trenches and, you know, being involved in a number of projects and a number of sports and going after those historic records. Was it fun because you were sort of cheating the system? Like, was that part of the fun of it uh you were being naughty you know it was more about uh previous to that i had developed a product called zma that had made a significant amount of money and i think like anyone else that uh got to a point where they didn't have to worry about paying the mortgage and so on, I decided, what is it that I really like to do? And that was be in the trenches and help athletes and try to do historic things.

So whether it be go to the Super Bowl with teams or go to world championships or Olympics or whatever it was, we would set specific goals, like the Tim Montgomery project called Project World Record. We set out. I recruited and hired a bunch of people, including Ben Johnson's coach, Charlie Francis, to create the world's fastest human, is one of the projects that we had. And we did end up eventually doing that. Jesus Christ. So you looked at it as sort of a science project sort of a thing. The challenge and the fun and the excitement, a lot of people thought because it was an IRS-led investigation that it was all about the money. That's absolutely the farthest thing from the truth. Ultimately, I pled to probably many consider the smallest money laundering case in the history of the United States in an amount of $100.

And how long did they put you in jail for that? I spent four months in a minimum security prison camp where they were smoking weed. No. Oh, yeah. Talk about an experience. Maybe you shouldn't rat on them because then they'll tighten down the people that are in there right now. Well, I told you earlier before you started that one of your friends that you had on your show, Tommy Chong, he's already ratted on them. In fact, he ratted on them on the Dave Letterman show when I was in.

Oh, did he really? Damn, man, you got to keep that quiet if it's an easy jail. You know, you don't want to fuck it up for people. There's a lot of angry Republicans out there. They're like, what are these fucking people doing? They're supposed to be in jail. Supposed to be getting punished. How do we keep our kids safe?

It was a sports complex. Was it really? Yeah. So you just worked out and hung out and stuff? Well, you know, to make a long story short, the first morning when I woke up, and it was kind of a university campus-like setting, and I walked out, and in the middle of the courtyard was a huge sign, and it said sports complex, basketball, football, baseball, soccer,

bocce ball, volleyball, handball. Wow. And I looked around, and there was about 500 guys there, and they all had all sorts of equipment. There was a soccer game and a baseball game and all going on. And then I looked over, and I saw the rec center. And I walked over to that and walked in, and there were six pool tables and six foosball tables

and six ping pong tables. And then I went through this door, and it was this huge music department. Three different musical groups were practicing. And I said, well, do they have concerts here? Oh, yeah, we have a routine. On Friday nights, we have the bands playing. We have concerts outside. That's brilliant.

Sounds awesome. This is my first 10 minutes out on the compound. I started walking around with some guys around the walking track. That sounds awesome. This is my first 10 minutes out on the compound. I started walking around with some guys around the walking track. And I went, they said, are they smoking weed here? I said, yeah, you want some weed? Get the fuck out of here. I said, listen, I don't want anything to do with this kind of stuff. I don't want to get in any more trouble than I'm already in.

Do they test people? How could you smoke weed? I mean, don't they test them? Well, first of all, there's no fences around the place. About every 200 feet, they have a sign on a stake that says, out of bounds. I got there in December 1st of 2005. That Christmas, about 25 guys just walked out to the freeway and had their road and had their families pick them up, and they left. Wow.

So it was kind of an honor system. But, yeah, anything that you wanted, alcohol, any and every type you wanted was $20 for eight ounces. They had meth. They had steroids. They had cocaine. That's so hilarious. But it didn't take me long to figure out that they had several really nice-looking female correction officers there, with hair done up and big chest.

And it was kind of stunning to me. And the guy said, listen, you want some action? Wait a minute. That's awesome. I'm telling you the straight scoop. The female corrections officers were also hookers. My understanding is, on average, they were making about $30,000 a month. I'm going to jail.

You know how many dudes are trying to go to jail right now? Dudes with fat bank accounts that hate their wives. It's like, get me near a pool table. I can play basketball with the boys. Let's all get arrested together. Please arrest me. I swear to God. Holy arrest me i swear to god holy i swear to god the guy and they have cubes it's a 12 by 12 concrete block that are six feet high not cells they just have an open door and this young kid came in that same first day that i was

there and my uh cubie was a guy named evil was his name and he said evil i'm gonna have to do something bad because because i'm scheduled to go home tomorrow. I said, you're scheduled to go home and you want to stay here? He said, yeah, if I go home, I've got to start paying rent. Oh, wow. Well, that really does happen to people, right? They become really institutionalized. There's people that go to jail for a long time and they become like almost programmed.

They have a real hard time adjusting. They go to jail for a long time, and they become almost programmed. They have a real hard time adjusting. Well, the amazing part of the story is that the federal taxpayers were paying $100,000 a day for me to be in there. $100,000 for you? Just for you? Yeah, ABC Nightline News, Martin Bashir announced that night that I went in. They had a special, and he said that they had spent investigating and prosecuting me. Of course, I was the first one in they'd spent 12.7 million dollars so divide that by 120 days it's 100 grand

a day yeah it gets really weird when it gets to these uh performance enhancing drug trials like they go way out of bounds it's it's really interesting how we just sort of accept that you know uh like we we this these congressional hearings that they have for perjury about fucking steroids and baseball like really is that what we're using congress for in the middle of two wars we're going to make sure that some guy wasn't on growth you know like what the fuck is wrong with people it's it's really strange that they concentrate on it so much you know and then they make it this massive deal it's certainly a debatable issue there's no question about it but the the prevalence of all sorts of different things that are enhancing performance available at every single vitamin store all over the country they're

there all the time and those are legal so because they're legal you say well that's okay well they're performance enhancing drugs okay these are these are compounds molecules these are different there's a bunch of different things you could buy gnc and they will fucking help you recover faster they will help you get stronger they will give you more testosterone they just will they will these are legal they exist so the weirdness of uh deciding that you know roger clemens shouldn't be taking growth and if he is taking growth he should tell the truth about it and if he he should tell the truth about it. And if he doesn't tell the truth about it,

we're going to drag you in front of fucking Congress. Like, whoa, you guys took it too far. He's a fucking baseball player. He's a baseball player. You're mad that he didn't tell the truth about a hormone that makes him better at age 40? Come on, man. What the fuck are we wasting our money on?

This is ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense that they would spend so much money doing that. Did you start off using steroids with athletes or did you slowly work into it? You know, I was a musician for many years. I played the bass with a group called Tower Power and also thereafter with the jazz pianist Herbie Hancock. And I made 17 different CDs that were in the store and are still available. And I was looking for a way to get off the road in 1983. I was 33 at the time. And my cousin's roommate was a guy that had bought this.

It's called an ICP is the acronym, Inductively Coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectrometer. I see you've got Tower Power Plan there. You could just call it insane. There's Lenny Pickett that I was in the band with. There's my cousin Bruce. Dude, this is you guys? He's the...

Can we hear this? Lenny is the... In fact, Lenny Williams just sang the national anthem at the Giants game last night and forgot the words. Where are you in this, Victor? Let me see. This may or may not have been the period where I'm in the band. These are all the same guys, but this may have been a bit before I joined the band. I don't see...

Oh, no, it's Rocco who's playing here, the original bass player. This is the guy that I replaced. That's a huge band. How many people were in that band? Ten. There were ten guys. You guys must have tore it up on the road. I had a lot of fun.

I bet you did. I had a lot of fun. So you went from that. How do you go from that to... Well, and then I was looking for a way to make money, and this guy, Jack Cameron, that had graduated with my cousin from USC, had started a lab in Santa Barbara. And he bought this piece of equipment that could analyze any sort of biological fluid,

tissue, blood, urine, but they mainly used these pieces of equipment. His actual contract that he had at the time was with Hughes Aircraft, and they would drain the oil from the engines on a jet and analyze the oil for the concentration of metals so they would know when to replace the engine parts. But he also knew that there was an application of this in terms of medical and specifically sport application, and he knew that I was a track athlete in high school and college, and he said, I've got an idea, and he pitched this to me.

I went down to Santa Barbara where the equipment was at that time. And long story short, I couldn't even pronounce the name of the instrument, but I said, sure, it sounds like a good idea to me. I could buy it for $25, I mean, excuse me, $10 in analysis and sell it for $25 in analysis. So I was in business. He flew up to the Bay Area and hooked me up with a few medical doctors, and they started using the service. So you had no background working with athletes?

I had no background whatsoever, whatsoever. Wow. But, you know, I've always had people have called it Victor's knack, and so I founded Balco in March of 1984. Well, immediately I started, you know, hooking up with world class athletes. The first one was Alberta Salazar, who was the world record holder in the marathon at the time, they'd won the New York City Marathon two or three times. And shortly after it was Matt Biondi, who at that time was the world's fastest swimmer who won seven or eight gold medals in the

in the Olympics in 1988. And it just continued. The next thing you know, I had professional football players. And so I started building this database. And I just kind of learned as I went along. And eventually I did learn how to run and operate the equipment. And we became fully Medicare certified and licensed. And so what exactly were you doing for these athletes initially? Well, we were analyzing, we called it multiple compartment multi-element analysis. So we would look at up to 40 different elements, predominantly minerals and trace elements,

and we'd centrifuge the blood, separate it into the fluid portion, the plasma or serum, and the packed cells or red blood cells. We looked at whole blood. We looked at whole blood. We looked at urine. So we would calculate their retention excretion and all these ratios, and then I would develop individualized nutrition programs for the athletes. In a short period of time, I had Bill Romanowski showed up at Balco's door. It was when he left the 49ers in 95, He showed up at Balco's door.

It was when he left the 49ers in 95, and then he went to Philadelphia for a year and had a great season. He won a game. He had 24 tackles in a game. The following year, he became the leader of the Denver Broncos. I talked with Arthur Zaporin, who was the team physician of the Broncos. He probably still is today, but he was then. Went to training camp, tested every one of the players' blood and urine samples, and created an individual nutrition program for all 85 guys in training camp.

Long story short, they not only won the Super Bowl that year, but they won the Super Bowl the following year. It just kind of right time, right place, right ideas. So this kind of created a lot of attention regarding what I was doing. And previous to that, though, I had went to the Olympics in 1988, and I'd worked with 25 athletes, judo athletes, track athletes, and Matt Biondi, the swimmer. Long story short, of those 25 athletes that I helped, they brought back a total of 15 medals. Well, the whole United States team brought back 97.

So 20% of the medals that came back were people that I had been helping. Wow. So I did this. This was all legit? This was all legit. There was no performance-enhancing drugs? This was from 84 through 2000. This is just minerals, vitamins, diet. It was all legit.

Now, did I know that some of these guys, as an example, in 88, I worked with all the shot putters, hammer throwers, discus throwers. Well, of course, these guys were all doing stuff. Right. You know, I knew that they were doing stuff, but I wasn't involved directly in that. So you were just brought in as the analyst. The nutritionist is what I did. I provided nutritional supplements based on the comprehensive blood and urine test. How would those guys, how do they pass tests?

Do they have it timed? Is that what they were doing? Of course. They would just taper off and pass. And here's where the big turn occurred. After the 88 Olympics, and I don't know if you recently watched this 9.79 asterisk program that has been on espn the 30 30 about ben johnson no i haven't seen that it's it's a very interesting documentary and i was there in seoul in 88 standing at the finish line when when he ran 979 and all

this came down and long story short all these eight guys, one at a time, since then have either been busted or admitted that they were using performance-enhancing drugs. Of course, he was not the only one, but very interesting program. And thereafter, four years later in 1992, at the track and field trials in New Orleans, I had befriended this Olympic official. And I was working with one of the same shot putters, Greg Trafalis, who in 1992 had the farthest throw in the world, 72-1.5. And at these trials, he tested positive. So this guy, which we won't name, but he lives here in Southern California.

He was an Olympic official. He's no longer involved with track and field, but at that time he was. And he called me and said, your boy tested positive. I said, you're kidding. So I called Greg, told him. He told his wife, Mary. You know, what was he going to do now? He was going to have to look for a job.

I mean, this was quite upsetting to him. And then three or four days later, I get a call back from this same guy, and he said, well, one of the elder statesmen at TAC, used to be called the Athletic Congress, now it's USATF, United States Track and Field, and he said one of the elder statesmen passed away, and they had a reception afterwards, and some of these big dogs within the organization got together

and decided that it was time to sweep these five positive drug tests that they came up with under the rug. So tell your boys off the hook. Wow. So once I had firsthand knowledge of this, and I also knew that there were other positive drug tests that were covered up in 1988 in Seoul. So this weighed on me for a while. And it wasn't until 2000 when I was at a Mr. Olympia bodybuilding contest in Las Vegas. And the guy that made the original stock of The Clear that was involved in Patrick Arnold, He said, hey, I've got some stuff. He called it stuff.

And he said, I don't think it'll cause a positive test. He wouldn't know for sure. He said, well, it seems to enhance recovery, et cetera, et cetera. So I bought some of this stuff from him for about $150, I think. Did you ask him how it works? Well, now I can tell you exactly what it was. It was something called Norbolithone, which is an anabolic steroid that was developed in the 1960s. There were liver toxicity issues about it, and they never brought it to market. So he saw this in the Merck index and made this stuff.

And so the bottom line is that I took some myself for four consecutive days in a row, and I was trying to, it was a suppression test. I was trying to determine, you know, does it have an affinity for the androgen receptor? And each and every day, my own endogenous production of testosterone went down to zero after four days. I realized that it does have an affinity for the receptor. It is anabolic. It's very potent. So the first thing I did was dilute it by 50% and change the frequency and dosage schedule compared to what he was using.

But shortly thereafter, with this reduced dosage, I started giving it to various athletes. And I also had it tested, and it came back clean. So it was undetectable. So it was undetectable because people just didn't know what it was? No, because what they have is a – first of all, all the rules changed in the Balco case. So we're talking pre-Balco. Right.

They have a list of about 30 to 35 anabolic steroids. And for each one of those, they have what's called a mass spectrogram fragmentation pattern. It's like a thumbprint. So they can measure all these peaks, and it either matches or it doesn't. So they're looking for specific things, a pattern of a specific anabolic steroid. So if you've got one that doesn't have the fingerprint, there's no match, well, then they can't see it, so to speak. Wow. So, however, that's all changed now.

Now they, if you want me to explain that, I can explain to you why. Yeah, what's the difference? They changed all the laws. Baco changed everything. There used to be two tiers uh the first is that um uh for an anabolic steroid is that it's similar in structure to testosterone all anabolic steroids are modified or or derivatives of testosterone okay the second prong was that there had to be some sort of scientific evidence proving that it created the protein synthesis, that it promoted muscle growth. Well, in this case, there was science that promoted this. They just couldn't see it.

Now they've removed that second prong. So even if they don't, at the time, you know, I'm the one that made up the name, the clear. Later, they said, well, you know, have you, this THG, you know, did you, what about THG? I said, what's that? Tetrahydrogestrinone. Never heard of it. I didn't know what they were even talking about. Now, this is what the chemists through reverse engineering were able to do to figure out, you know, what that was.

But understand there was two versions of the clear. The first was this Norbolathone. And then I had access to all kinds of inside information within the Olympic testing network. And what I mean by that is let's talk about where they do the testing now for USADA, for VADA, for everybody at the UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory near Los Angeles, UCLA by the campus. There was a guy that actually, he was the assistant to Don Catlin, was there for 15 years, and he left,

and I knew somebody that knew him, and long story short, I ended up hiring him. So I had, you know, obviously he knew people in the lab. He actually told me that this original species of the clear, Norbolothon, that he personally had went to Reith Laboratories in 1982 when they built the lab, and the purpose was for the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles. And he went to Don Catlin and said, you need to create a test for this substance. It's in this Merck index.

Guys could get this. They could make this. It could be everywhere, and you wouldn't know it. So he brought it to his attention. In his own words he said well they you know don catlin kind of told me to blow it out my ass and he they just ignored him well exactly what he predicted happened and that's in about 1997 patrick saw this he made this. It got out there. He gave some to me, so I gave it to all these Olympic athletes. But an interesting aspect of this story, and this has been out there before,

but I don't know that many within the world of MMA know this, but Patrick made like a gallon of this stuff. We only needed a couple drops. How did you do it? What did it work? It was a very powerful anabolic steroid. But it's an eye dropper? Yeah, you put it in an eye dropper and you put a couple of drops under your tongue. Really? Now, here's what I was told. I don't want to create more multi-million dollar lawsuits against me, but here's the story that I was told. He sold a whole bunch of this

stuff, like a gallon, to Bob Sapp, the K-1 fighter. And my understanding is this stuff was all over the NFL. I guess during this time he was out of the NFL, and I think there was a period of time when he played in the Canadian League before he went to Japan to do the K-1 fighting. But the point is this stuff was very widely distributed is my understanding bob sap got to a level that was like well i couldn't even say cartoonish because it was more like uh cgi it was like he was like he was the first guy ever that

could have played the incredible hulk like he really could have played the Incredible Hulk. Like, he really could have played the Hulk because he was that big. I mean, like Lou Ferrigno, when he played the Hulk, he's like a bodybuilder. I mean, he was very well built. He was obviously very muscular, but he wasn't ridiculous. There's something about Bob Sapp when he was 370 pounds with a six-pack

that was just ridiculous. So you probably didn't know there was a connection between Balco and Bob Sapp. No. No, no, no. He bought a gallon of that stuff? Damn. Oh, my God.

Just think about how much he must have taken to get that big. No, all you had to do. Pull up a picture of him, Brian. Pull up a picture of Sapp versus Noguera. Look in Google Images. Bob Sapp versus Noguera. The photos are so ridiculous, you can't even believe he's a real human.

So anyway, because I had a lot of contacts within the Olympic testing facilities and so on, that they found some, quote, peculiar metabolites in the urine of Marion Jones and other athletes, so they started asking athletes, the actual testers that go out to these athletes' training facilities, and without naming names, but a guy that was on the team in 2000 that I think he got fourth in the discus from the U.S. He didn't get a medal, but there you go. The size of him, man. Rude and strong. You gotta see the video from the beginning.

Do the very beginning of the match, because when they're both about to fight, like even before, like when they're standing in the center of the ring and the referee says go, you see him. Oh, this is the second round. He's already tired. Look at the fucking size of him.

Oh, my God, that guy was big. I'm sorry, so continue. So I get a call from a guy that I'm working with, a shot putter, who's friends with this. It was on the Olympic team with this discus throw. And he said, hey, they're asking questions. What do we know about this Bauco Laboratories? Is there any connection? And here's what we're trying to figure out.

What is this stuff? And so the bottom line is we just switched over, so there was another undetectable that was ready to go. So we just buried that one and brought the second generation out. Damn, you didn't even slow down didn't even slow down did you just think you were did you think that the whole because of knowing that the olympic committee had fudged some tests did you just think the whole thing was bullshit and you're going to get through it i did i subconsciously i had this um

i mean my plan didn't work out. It was because I knew this guy that told me all this on the inside was a very credible guy. He's a Japanese fellow that really had a high level of integrity. He left the whole Olympic track and field movement. He worked thereafter with many famous tennis players, Wimbledon champions, and a whole list of, I worked with a lot of different, Michael Chang, Yvonne Lendl, Greg Raduski, Sharapova, many, many great, he was a trainer. And my thought thought was if they come after me my my get out of jail ticket so to speak

would be we'll just subpoena this guy and he can tell what he knows about what everybody's doing and then i realized that that you know if there was a if he was subpoenaed and he was under oath that would be one thing if there was a congressional committee hearing, that would be another. But I'm not just going to send reporters to his house and destroy this guy's life. And it became better in the case of Balco for me to do this global plea bargain. And the way that all came down was because I knew that they had lied in many of the memorandums and it was all sorts of bad stuff that the government had done. And I learned about this and used it in terms of leverage. And literally the

way the Balco case ended is I dictated all the terms and conditions of what I would get and was able to do so for the other guys like Barry Bonds as trainer, Greg Anderson, and Jim Valenti and Remy Corchemney. And honest to God, I had seen Martha Stewart. She kind of went in over a holiday period and was in there five months, and I thought, you know what, to be away from my business and do what I need to do if I can plan this right, I'll just accept four and four, four months in a minimum security prison and four months of ankle bracelet, and that way I can continue.

The VP of Balco got straight probation, so he was able to continue to run my business. I was able to continue to have my income at the same level, and this protected everybody from having to come forward and testify in a trial so i what led you to start giving them illegal substances or substances that you knew were cheating well you have to understand in the beginning it started with the clear i didn't consider it to be an illegal substance because when the guy said he had this stuff you didn't think it was illegal? Well, I didn't really know what it was. This guy also introduced pro-hormones.

If you remember when Mark McGuire, they found the Sports Illustrated writer, Stephen Wilson, that found it in his locker, and everything broke about androstenedione. This is the guy that introduced andro to the United States market. So I wasn't sure what it was. I mean, literally, there were three different species, the guy that introduced andro to the united states market so i wasn't sure what it was i mean literally there were three different species and later i saw when they tried to smuggle this through customs in canada but but i'd seen all the bottles and the first one said nor stuff the second one said

trend stuff and the third one said new stuff and so you're just giving this to people? Trend stuff. And the third one said new stuff. And so you've just given this to people. You're not exactly sure who it was. I took it. Then I did testing. And then you've got to understand that all these athletes that work with me routinely, they're on a very short leash, meaning they've got a three-week-on, one-week-off cycle. And if they didn't come back and have their blood tested so we could monitor liver function, kidney function, cholesterol fractions, and all the rest, that that was the end of the supply.

So in my mind, I was helping them do what in almost every case they were already doing themselves, only they were buying it out of trunks of cars and dark alleys behind gyms. I owned a fully licensed clinical laboratory where we could do all these testing, and then they would have the opportunity to make more informed decisions and in most cases they used much lower dosages which were equally if not more effective. At a certain point in time when you were initially working with people and just giving them nutrition and then realizing that some of them were doing steroids, did you just decide that it's inevitability,'s just a part of sports period high level sports

like i say once i gather this information that everybody's in on it meaning the olympic officials are actually covering up positive drug tests at olympic games um i had been on the sideline from 92 and for eight years and and just at a certain point, I made that decision to go down that slippery slope. Now, was it the right decision? Obviously not in many respects. Right. Well, you say you didn't know what it was and you didn't think it was illegal, but as soon as they were looking for it, you changed it.

Wow. You knew that there was something that was probably unkosher about it. Well, and this is a rationalization in my mind. I'm helping people do things more safely. But it's part of the thrill of the competition. It was wrong. It was all wrong. So let me say that.

Because thereafter, once you cross that line, then we started using all sorts of other things. EPO, growth hormone, thyroid, all sorts of stimulants that were undetectable. You know, there was seven or eight or nine different drugs that these athletes were using. Oh, I see. So it was sort of just once it started, the snowball started rolling, and then you just started collecting drugs that you were doing. You know, it's the... Everything that works? In the beginning when I told you that I hired Charlie Francis

and he came down for this project, and if you've ever listened to any of the things that he's said, I'm not saying it's right, but it's the use or lose mentality. If you know the other guy's doing it, you feel you've got to do what you've got to do in order to be competitive. And I don't know that I agree with this now, and I've said this myself before, that it's not cheating if everyone's doing it, where it probably is, because it's a level playing field, it's just not the one everyone thought it was.

Right. And is that what's going on right now in professional sports? You know, it's... Is it possible to have athletes that you see today in professional sports without performance-enhancing drugs? Is it possible just through the natural selection of big athletic people, dating big athletic people, and making big athletic kids? No question there are athletes that have broke world records and won Olympic gold medals and done it naturally. Absolutely that can happen. But those are freaks. They're genetic freaks.

There's not that many of them. There's not that many of them. And then there's guys like Armstrong that might be a freak, and it looks like he was doing something. Like didn't they say Armstrong, Lance Armstrong, has an abnormally large heart? You know, like he processes blood better than the average person does, just naturally and genetically

yeah but it's like usain bolt and he's got all these gifts but you know my i'm highly suspicious that not only he's on drugs but most of the track athletes that are on the jamaican island are on drugs what are they on if you had to guess if i had to guess seven or eight different drugs my sense is that um well let me back up and put this in perspective have you heard the name memo heredia no memo memo is his nickname it's it's actually angel heredia in the balco case this is the guy there were two people that were at the very top of the food chain. Angel was one of them. He was a discus thrower from Texas A&M,

and he was the supplier for Trevor Graham and Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery and the Sprint Capital Group that was in Raleigh, North Carolina, that won a whole bunch of Olympic gold medals and so on. They ended up indicting Trevor, Marion's coach, for lying to a federal agent. This guy came and testified against Trevor, and he got leniency in exchange for that. So he never got any consequence whatsoever. He was the guy making all the money. He was at the top of the food chain.

He was the main dealer. Well, he now works with Juan Manuel Marquez, who's fighting Manny Pacquiao next. Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. People were very suspicious. He changed his name, if you remember, all of a sudden. And I'm the one that saw him on HBO 24-7.

I said, oh, my God, that's Memo. And his real name is Heredia. And all of a sudden sudden it was Angel Hernandez so he changed his name and thought nobody would recognize him and so the word is so you threw him under the bus is that he's working with the Jamaican

athletes he's said as much in UK interviews and I know somebody who saw him after Usain Bolt ran 969 and did everything they did in Beijing at the Olympics, at the World Championships the following year.

So the point is... Is it possible that this guy is just doing it legally now? And that's why none of his people are testing positive? Juan Manuel Marquez? No? Impossible? No, because they don't have any testing.

What testing is Juan Manuel Marquez doing? Well, I don't know. I mean, didn't he get tested in Vegas? Well, that's about tapering off and just, you know, you have to be dumb. That's IQ testing. That's not drug testing. I see. So, but these Olympic athletes, they're all tested, correct?

Well, even that's relatively easy to circumvent. How's that? Well, let's just explain exactly how you can beat the testing. Let's pretend I'm Hussein Boltetra. I'm fucking awesome. I just won the Olympics. Okay. What do you got to do now?

Here's the way it works. Here's the way it works. And this is the big loophole. You get two missed tests in any given 18 month period as an olympic athlete so it's just like getting a speeding ticket on your driving record so here you are low you you have a whereabouts form you fill it out and you say i'm going to be at training center x and you don't go there you go to training center y well the odds are i've calculated about 25 to 1 that they're not going to go to that training center.

But even if they do, the worst scenario is it's like being up to bat in an American baseball game. Strike one. Does that mean you're out? They don't disclose that. Nobody gets told that. So if you go and you win the Olympics and you test positive for a steroid, it's just a strike? They just burn? No, I don't mean positive.

I'm talking about a missed test. Miss's just a strike? They just burn? I don't mean positive. I'm talking about a missed test. A missed test. Okay, like you were supposed to take it, but you didn't show up. You didn't show up. Okay, so that's strike one. Okay, that's strike one. That's the downside. First of all, there's no transparency, so nobody knows. Okay, so you missed the test,

but you still have to test, right? That's strike one. Well, no, no, they don't come right back the next day. What they do is they send you a letter and say, hey, you missed this test. Show up at this hearing, and you can give us a reasonable explanation or present exceptional circumstances, or you can argue this, or you get the strike. This is for the Olympics? You can do this? Okay.

Then, okay, so you're six months out from the Olympics. You do this two or three times maybe they come one time you get one strike then they you do it again and they come and they're really targeting you now so they come back a second time and you're not there and it's strike two right you go to the olympics you win the gold medal you cash in you get all the endorsement money well the time is rolling how much How many days could it possibly be? Well, the whole period of time, you can't have three tests in any given 18-month period. You can have two.

Otherwise, they suspend your license. Well, once you've got two missed tests, you cannot take any more chances in terms of using drugs until the oldest missed test falls off your record, just like a ticket on your driving record. Make sense? So when you know that you're positive, you just miss your tests. Yeah, you make yourself unavailable. Jesus Christ. What happened with Marion, no, what's her name, the tennis player?

What are the girls' names, the big ones? Serena Williams and the other one. One of them, they came to her house for a random drug test so she went in her panic room and called the police what the fuck she didn't give a sample so here's the bottom line what happened is there any consequence i don't know she got a missed test that nobody ever knew about possibly that's that is a tennis thing i've never heard of that before have you ever heard about that before? That's why they have what they call a whereabouts form.

You have to fill these forms out. You can communicate by email, text message. Let them know where you are and if they decide to show up. But let's put it in perspective. On average, they test about twice a year out of competition, meaning they show up unexpected. Now, let's not count the times that they test you at a competition. Let's talk about baseball for a minute. They only test these players twice a year.

The first test is at training camp. That's announced testing. That's IQ testing. How dumb do you have to be to be caught then? You just know that the taper time is a certain amount. You go off. You show up. You get your test.

Well, if they're not targeting you and they have no reason to target you, then here's what the guys say. Okay, it's April 1st. By the first week of May, I get my second test. Green light. Let's use all the stuff we like because we already had a second test. So for one month, you play baseball and match. Well, until you have your mandatory second test.

It could be a month. And then you just juice to the walls. Let's look at the statistics here. Most of the gains for Olympic athletes and for NFL and Major League Baseball and professional sports, or NFL and Major League Baseball and professional sports, during the off-season, they load up on all kinds of performance-enhancing drugs, including anabolic steroids, and do intensive weight training for four or five months. And the gains they make, what kind of gains can you make? Tiny Tim, Tim Montgomery that broke the world record with the Project World Record that I talked about earlier,

in eight weeks he came in, he weighed 148. He put on 28 pounds of muscle in eight weeks. His bench press went from 265 to 345 in eight weeks. So a lot can be done in four or five months using powerful drugs. Those gains carry over. So when these athletes are doing all these spectacular things at the Olympic Games, it's not because they're using the drugs at the Olympics or just before the Olympics. They've used them for five months during the off-season.

What if we had an all-Royd Olympics? Would it be much different? Well, the surveys show that that's what people really want. Do they really? Yeah, you didn't see that survey that was in Sports Illustrated? Who's getting surveyed? Who's getting surveyed? All surveys suck.

Every poll that's ever existed sucks. Yeah, here was the survey, and it was before the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, and the question they asked, and it was before the 2004 olympic games in athens and they the question they asked it was a sports illustrated they said would you rather see a new world record of 9.65 which wouldn't even be the record now by a guy that you knew was juiced to the gills or see a guy run 10 20 knowing he's completely clean 70 said give me the world record wow that's weird i'd rather see a guy jump like a mile up in the air than like you know seven feet knowing he's completely clean. 70% said, give me the world record. Wow. That's weird.

I'd rather see a guy jump like a mile up in the air than like, you know, seven feet. Yeah, like if there was a pill that you could take that actually turned you into the Hulk and you could literally jump a mile into the air like the Hulk could, who wouldn't take that? You'd be crazy not to take that. You don't want to be the Hulk.

Really? What's wrong with you? That's not meaning you have to take that. You don't want to be the Hulk. Really? What's wrong with you? That's not meaning you have to smash everything. Just knowing you could jump to a fucking, you know, an airplane. I'd give that pill to David Lee Roth immediately. You're bulletproof and you can jump up to airplanes. You don't want to do that? Okay.

What the fuck is wrong with you? It becomes what the fuck is wrong with you. At any point in time while you're doing this and you're caught up, you're going from being totally natural to working with the clear to all of a sudden you're giving guys EPO and growth and all this different stuff. Does any point in time go, man, this is not what I set up to do. I just wanted to be in the hunt. I just didn't know the hunt. Was it like you didn't know the hunt was dirty until you got in it? And then once you're in it, you're like, well, this is how you do business.

This is how you get down. No, I certainly knew that it was dirty. It was the, you know, that rationale that I told you that I used before of you feel that you've got to do what you need to do in order to be competitive, and it's the use or lose. If you don't use drugs, then, except for this rare freak that you mentioned, that can do this without the use of drugs. Well, I know there's a lot of MMA fighters that don't use drugs.

They won't use drugs, and they don't use drugs. It may be a small handful of them, but they're very proud of it, like BJ Penn obviously being one of the most vocal. But there's a lot of guys who just won't. But how many guys do you think are using? My guess is about 50%. 50% of MMA athletes or professional athletes, period? What about professional athletes, period?

Depends on the sport. Football. Those guys are gigantic. Once again, I want to go back and try to put this into perspective. And I'll do it because I know the numbers with baseball, but this would also apply to football. Okay. The Major League Players Union, the Baseball Players Union contract with MLB enables them to test 375 players during the off-season. So that's about 31% of all the players in the league.

And this is during the off-season. They've agreed to this. If you go back and look at the last five years of statistics, you see that on average they only test about 50 players, which is less than 5%. So if those who receive the majority of the financial gain from Major League Baseball and control the drug testing have every right to test these players, or at least 31% or 375 players, why do they test only 50?

And they tried to argue this with me, and I know a lot of Major League Baseball players, and I talk to them, and I know that there's a guy that's maybe one of the highest-paid players in the history of the league, and in his entire career, which we won't say exactly, but more than a 15-year career, he's only been tested one time during the offseason. They just don't do it. What I'm saying is I believe they lack a genuine interest in catching these athletes.

They want to promote this propaganda that they're for clean sport. They're trying to reduce the drugs, but they just don't take their hook and line and pole and throw it in the pond to try to catch the fish when the fish are biting. And why is that? It's bad for business. So it's sort of a charade. They pretend they're trying to clean up the sport, but they have to keep it light, otherwise it will ruin the game.

Because the athletes need it in order to play at that level. Yeah. Yeah. Now, track and field, what percentage of track and field do you think? Well, that's a history of really being dirty for a very long period of time. I mean, where you can see this, and I'll give you an obvious example, and that is with the women because they typically have about 10% the amount of testosterone compared to a male, so the effects are much greater on a woman than they are on a man.

Effects are much greater on a woman than they are on a man. If you go back and look at the women's records in track and field, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1,500 meter, 100 hurdles, 400 hurdles, and those seven events, the world and Olympic records are from the 1970s and 80s. You've got faster mondo tracks now, better spikes, all sorts of additional training equipment, and you would expect them to run faster. At the Olympic Games, the winner runs around 49 seconds in the 400 meter. World record is 47.60.

I mean, it's like 12 meters faster. If you superimpose these records from the world and Olympic records compared to what they just did at the Olympic Games, you would see that it's a joke. The world record in the 100 meters is 1049. So they ran whatever it was, 1078 or maybe 1070. The world record in the 200 is 2134. They run whatever is 21 80 but it's five meters slower 30 years later so what does that tell you that obviously these records are tainted so and every time these athletes step up to the starting blocks if you're in a world championships you're at olympic games you see these records come up so they're not just competing against the athletes in the lanes next to them.

They're competing against these world and Olympic records, which are obviously tainted. And all the women now in track and field complain about this routinely, that, listen, we can't get anywhere near these records. So what does that mean? So the WWF is the realest sport. Where all this leads is, What are you going to do? Rip up the Olympic track and field record book?

Yeah, what are you going to do with the Tour de France? They said that if they take it away from Lance Armstrong And you have to give it to the next runner up That didn't test positive on a drug test It would be 27th place Well there you go That's, you know I don't know if you remember back in 2003 but this was

right before balco was raided and i was helping a girl named kelly white and she won was the first ever american to win double gold in the 100 and 200 meters well um here's what happened uh after and she she tested positive they took the medals away. Within a short period of time, the silver medalist tested positive, and the bronze medalist tested positive. Now, in that particular race of the eight girls, I believe that 100% of those girls were all on drugs. I personally gave five of those girls drugs. What kind of drugs did you give them?

Besides ecstasy. Gay rapers. Gay rapstasy gay rapers performance enhancing drugs a combination of a lot of different things epo growth hormone the clear so they're all on epo and epo essentially simulates what it's like to live at high altitude your body produces more red blood cells more complicated you you know are you going to get the same types of results training at high altitude that you will from using EPO? The answer is no. So EPO is more stronger than that?

Much more powerful. Wow. Much more powerful. Like how many times more powerful? Well, let's say that a normal hematocrit is for a female is around 40 and for a male is around 45, 43. And what does hematocritetic root exactly that's the percentage of red blood cells to total whole blood volume okay you look at it and you spin it down in a centrifuge the top 55 is is the plasma or serum it's called and the bottom 45 is is the pack cells okay now

the word out there was that that you know the target, was about 55%. But I've seen, and another thing you have to understand is that all anabolic steroids, including the granddaddy of them all, testosterone, significantly increase red blood cell production. Now, I've tested many, many of the top bodybuilders in the history of the sport, and you see guys coming back at 57 58 59 percent hematocrit very very thick blood this is obviously dangerous well most of them are not taking epo they get this this increase in hematocrit from anabolic steroids so the anabolic steroids increase endurance in the same exact way as epo is capable of doing Is that what you're saying? Yes.

Wow, I didn't know that. But everybody thinks of steroids as actually being bad for your cardio when it comes to fighters because they put up so much muscle mass when they're on steroids, and that demands resources. And that means the blood vessels have to travel farther. And the other thing that's bad about that a lot of people don't understand is, and, of course, track and field, they know this very well, understand is and of course track and field they know this very well is you are much stronger and much faster off steroids than on steroids really not let me give you an example this guy uh the tim mont same tim montgomery that that i helped at one point uh to break the world record and become the world's fastest human he had had bought $16,000 worth of drugs early in the year in 2000.

He'd run about a little quicker than 10 flat. I think he'd run 992. And he said, listen, I bought all these drugs. I took all these drugs. I'm running 1020. I'm two meters slower. What's the deal? He said, Tim, get off.

Just go off. They work through cell volumization. They pump you up. They make you tight. They make you slow. But they also, I don't understand. So if you taper off for two weeks. They also increase your strength.

They increase your strength. So tapering off. But you will maintain that strength every single, for two weeks after you go off, you maintain 100% of the strength. But now you have a normal fluid balance and your muscles are much more relaxed and much faster. Now, so these are the really hardcore steroids you're talking about, like the ones that people get tested for, like extremely anabolic ones, or basically even regular testosterone. It's all of them.

As you know, they're all anabolic androgenic. Some are more one way than the other. So is it just getting a certain amount of testosterone in your system and that makes everything swell? But you want to get off is the whole point. Right. And a lot of guys don't understand. He was trying to run fast while he was on. And so what happened?

He followed my advice. He went off. And sure enough, about three weeks later, he ran two meters faster. So it's because he kept the gains of being on the drugs, but then the drugs' negative effects wore off. Which is the tightness. The tightness. You're much slower. So I don't care what you're doing, if it were MMA fighting or playing baseball, you would be much quicker by being off instead of on.

So you don't perform your best when you're on steroids. Okay, so steroids allow you to perform your best because they build you up so much in training that you almost have like supernatural strength. And then when you're off of them, then you perform at your best. That's it. Okay. So it's a complicated sort of a timing situation with fighting, isn't it? They used to say 10-day taper.

Can you talk into this a little bit better? They used to say 10-day taper. Sorry. And I believe, and now I know that there are a number of people that believe the best is a 14-day taper. Now, for MMA fighters, especially since MMA is such a controversial sport as it is, and there's so many instances of guys getting caught with PEDs. It's so commonplace. It's almost like every time the tests come out, all fighters tested for UFC 1X, X, whatever it is,

I cross my fingers. I'm like, please don't be fucking positive. Because so many guys test positive, and then you don't see them for a year it's like god it's it's annoying a guy like ovareem when he tested positive like are you okay you know the matches we missed out on because this guy's got to sit out for a year it's fucking it's crazy bad advice yeah well in his situation absolutely but you're you're working with guys you're're working with Kyle Kingsbury and Nonito Donair. And Nonito Donair looked fucking amazing the other night. Woo!

That kid is dynamite. He is one of the best living boxers right now. Very, very smart boxer. Yeah, you could tell. His timing, his technique, and he's also very aggressive. And I love watching that kid fight. He is fantastic. And you're working with him. You're working with Kyle Kingsbury, and who else are you working with now?

Well, I, Kung Lee. Okay, Kung Lee. There are other top UFC fighters that do come to me and that I have tested and provided consultation for, and some of these choose to keep that on the down low. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. Since MMA is such a controversial sport and you have this crazy past, you're one of the few guys that actually did time for it. What is it like when you approach these guys and have conversations with these guys?

Are people reluctant to work with you? Some are very open and forgiving, and I greatly appreciate that opportunity, and others just are afraid of the downside, the stigma that they're going to think that they're on steroids where in reality, the guys that come to me and the guys that work with me

are probably some of the cleanest guys out there. Kyle Kingsbury is a fucking awesome guy. It puts a target on their back. Yeah, a little bit, right? Kyle Kingsbury is what a nice guy that guy is and what a ballsy guy. I mean, he's only been doing martial arts for a short amount of time. He was essentially like a football player, wasn't he?

Yeah, he played football at Arizona. Big fucking super athlete kid. What a stud. And he started really learning how to fight in the biggest organization in the world. It's kind of crazy. He's a very ballsy dude for taking that up. And he's a great fighter. He's just fucking heart and determination. It's kind of crazy. He's a very ballsy dude for taking that up, and he's a great fighter. He's just, he has a fucking heart and determination. He's so tough. But I mean, he's fighting guys like Glover Teixeira, and Glover has just so many years of training

and experience on him. It's kind of crazy that Kyle is fighting all these really, really tough guys. He's taken a wild road to mixed martial arts success as a career. He's got a tough road, but he's a great guy. And you work with him, and you work with Nonito. What do you do for these guys? Well, the first thing is to test their blood and see if there's any weak links in the nutritional chain and create a program that will help them to achieve an optimal balance. It's not about megadoses of anything.

It's just correcting weak links or depletions and deficiencies. And then secondly, we have athletes wear a memory belt, which collects all sorts of different data, caloric expenditure, VO2 max, ventilation, training load. You wear it while you work out? Yeah, you wear it around your chest. Can you wear it while you spar? Yeah. Jiu-jitsu, kickboxing, everything?

It doesn't move or it doesn't move? No, it's even waterproof. Of course, you'd have to wear a shirt over the top of it. But grappling, it may be a problem. But a lot of guys that I work with have this. And then we collect that data, and you can graphically display it on a big screen TV that we have in my conference room. And it's an index of their physical fitness. We measure a lot of these parameters that indicate overtraining.

parameters that indicate overtraining. I'm just, the first thing I do is, and it seems like most of the boxers and MMA fighters have this two a day, six days a week, and Sundays off. Right. And it's just too much. And what I mean by that is, you see immune system suppression. Their white blood cell count, normal, say, is about seven,

and these guys will go outside the low end of the range at four and down into the threes. This is something we discovered with Kyle early on. He said, listen, you're overtraining. If you keep this up, you're going to end up being sick. So there's more, there is no pain. There's no pain. It's just weakness leaving the body.

Everybody has a different constitution. What you do for training, you know, what works for you may be completely different than works for Kyle or Nonito or anybody else. So I don't like athletes training more than three days in a row. So typically what I suggest is they train monday tuesday wednesday thursdays off when you say off um can you have an active rest day like what if you just drilled technique and just like well a lot of times i'll want them to do you know art therapy active uh release technologies therapy or tissue massage um you know but rest and recover and sleep in.

And then Friday and Saturday and Sunday. What is this active release you're talking about? Well, it's where they put pressure at the actual point and they move the limb. Instead of massaging, they actually move your arms and your legs. Like a Thai massage type thing? Yeah, this is something that all the top guys, Tiger Woods and A-Rod and all these guys that were going to a guy named Mark Lensey, who is in Toronto. He's one of the top ART guys in the country.

I met him through Romo, but it's something a lot of people have been trained under Mark. But he works with a lot of the hockey teams. So this is really a lot of the top names are using ART, Applied... This specific technology that... Applied Release, is that what it's called? Yeah, technology. It's Active Release Technology. Active Release Technology. And the idea is just to keep everything loose? Like, what is it?

And sometimes they even have two people do it on you at the same time. And one will apply the pressure and the other will move the limb. And, of course, it's to open that up and free these toxins that accumulate in various places of the body. Toxins accumulate, and that's what it is when you're feeling sore? These are toxins, or it's damage to the tissue? No, it's metabolic waste byproducts is specifically what it is. That's what people don't quite understand about the use of EPO. Let's talk about that for a minute.

Everybody thinks that it helps to deliver more oxygen molecules to muscle tissue, and it does. But it's a two-way street, meaning once the red blood cell is there and dumping the oxygen, it picks up lactic acid, ammonia, carbon dioxide, these metabolic waste byproducts, and removes those. So you're delaying the onset, the accumulation of lactic acid. So it really helps with endurance, not because it's just delivering the oxygen, but because it's removing these metabolic wastes, which are toxic byproducts from the system. Interesting. So these different various drugs, some of them are still not illegal is that

correct isn't epo still they don't test for it no no in certain places state commissions don't test for it right see that's that's my big argument about what these state commissions are doing is is the the they don't test for epo yeah i read that and i'm like i heard they don't test for that was that's a crazy thing for growth hormone they don't test for EPO. Yeah, I read that, and I'm like, I heard that's a crazy thing. For growth hormone. They don't test for synthetic testosterone. So when you say, wow, these guys are getting busted all the time, could you imagine if they had effective testing what would be going on?

So these guys are getting busted because they're dumb. Is that what it is? They're doing something dumb. They're not talking to a guy, a knowledgeable guy, that could sort of read their blood work and tell them beforehand whether or not they're taking the right amount of time off of it. Is that what it is? Let's talk about a specific case to illustrate what you just said. Okay. Lamont Peterson, the boxer that tested positive for synthetic testosterone.

Yes. You work with him, correct? No. You don't? No. You don't? No. But Vada, the group that does testing, is the one that busted him for synthetic testosterone. But here's what happened.

He went to a doctor in Las Vegas, and his total testosterone was 563, perfectly normal, low under the ranges, depending upon lab. It varies lab to lab, but like 250 to 300. So he's at 563, perfectly normal. They found his free testosterone, the active portion that binds to the androgen receptor, was a little bit low. Well, that could have been, you know, he was overtrained and all he needed was a few days of rest. But this doctor told him, let's just put this testosterone pellet in you.

So they made a little surgical incision, inserted a pellet. This pellet time releases about 7 milligrams a day, which is about your body's normal production. And you don't even need a stitch. They just put a little butterfly over it. So he fights Amir Khan for the world title, and they test him, and he's negative. Now, in Nevada, in New York, in Washington, D.C., they used a 6 to 1 T.E. ratio. So he was well below that.

There was no issues. As soon as he enrolled in Nevada testing, where this is what they do that's different than other testing associations, is every single sample they use this CIR, carbon isotope ratio testing, which can differentiate between endogenous production and exogenous testosterone, whether it be patch, cream, clear, injection. testosterone, whether it be patch, cream, clear, injection. Okay? So his TE ratio came back at 3.77 to 1.

Well, even the highest Olympic standard is 4 to 1. He's negative. Right? Okay. But if you use this more sophisticated technology, he came back and they identified that he had synthetic testosterone in his system. And, of course, later it came out, oh, by the way, I've got this pellet in my butt, and here's the reason. Now, I was told by somebody that I know that referred him to a doctor. It has to be a doctor.

That said, don't be surprised if there's 100 boxers out there that have these pellets in their butt. Now, this pellet thing is a new thing. I just heard about this yeah the first time i heard about it was a couple of months ago and i thought someone was joking with me no they they insert a bunch of pellets in them and they slowly dissolve and i was like that's right fuck time released and typically you have to replace the pellet every five months and he's like i could feel it in my butt i was like what are you doing can you get bigger ones if you wanted one yeah well they have different doses that is true they do have different maximum strengths 200 milligram through

800 milligram oh really interesting so now what do you think about testosterone replacement for professional athletes it's a very controversial subject and one of the reasons is there's guys that are in their 20s that are on it and Well, let's talk about that for a minute, and I want to try to shed some new light on that. Okay. Because I've heard a lot of arguments. I watched a little bit of your segment with Chael Sonnen. Yes. He said, it's legal, it's legal.

We should be able to do this, and so on. I don't think he's right. He obviously was suspended in the state of California. Whatever he did wasn't, not only was it not legal, I guess now if he's using it and he's regulated by the state that he fights in and he's got a therapeutic use exemption, it is legal. Yeah. Okay.

But I know when he was suspended it was not when he fought Sylvan in the state of California. But here's something that i want to talk about for just a minute with anabolic steroids every single steroid the test is qualitative it's not quantitative meaning you can't have a certain amount and it's okay like caffeine but if you have too much, there's an allowable limit. So if you've got a microscopic part per trillion, and it's even there and it can be identified, that's it, you're banned. It's a prohibited substance. Well, in the case of TRT, when you're talking about, and they use the word bioidentical, that's a very misleading term.

Because that's what this doctor told lamont peterson well it's bioidentical it won't cause a positive test you can take this stuff he has no clue what he's talking about okay the background is this your body makes testosterone out of cholesterol all forms injectable patches creams creams, clear patches, whatever it is, the delivery system, it's either made out of soy-based plant or yam. So they use a test, this carbon isotope ratio test, where they look at what they call the C13-C12 ratio. And they can differentiate between C12 ratio. And they can differentiate between endogenous and exogenous. Your body produced it, or it's coming from outside. And you're either positive or you're not, right? So if it's even there and your body didn't produce it for all anabolic steroids, you're suspended. It's the same thing with TRT. It's a foreign substance. Your body didn't make it.

It's coming from outside. Make sense? So it's not about being quantitative, meaning, well, you can have only a certain amount in your urine, and I want to talk about this for a minute, of up to 4 to 1. That's not true. If the testers use this carbon isotope ratio test, and I'm going to give you a specific example. If the testers use this carbon isotope ratio test, and I'm going to give you a specific example. In 2006, Justin Gatlin, who won the gold medal in 2004 in the 100 meters, somebody dropped dime on him. And they said, this guy is using testosterone.

So they went to him, based on this intelligence, collected a sample, and it came back his TE ratio was.5 to 1. It was lower than 1 to 1. Yet, with carbon isotope ratio, they found out this guy used this exogenous form of testosterone, and they banned him. Does this make sense? Yeah, I understand that, but that's the Olympics. The Nevada State Athletic Commission allows for testosterone replacement. What is wrong with that?

With a therapeutic use exemption. Right. But with a therapeutic use exemption, if they go to them, the doctor says, hey, this guy's got low testosterone. There's a bunch of fighters that are operating under that now. It's not unique. So that's not the Olympics. You're talking about these guys are doing. No, he's the Olympics.

You're talking about MMA or boxing and the state commission. I'm talking about this. I'm talking about this. I'm talking about fighters. If they have an exemption, then it's legal, like Chael said. Right. So even though it's not produced by your body, even though it is a foreign substance, it's still not cheap. If they had a prescription, they could use any other one of the available Tremblone or Primobolin or Parabolin or any other steroid, if a doctor said you can use this and you could get a therapeutic use exemption and use it.

Could you? Sure. Can you get a therapeutic use exemption for steroids? Or can you only get a therapeutic use exemption for testosterone replacement? It seems like it's only replacing what actually exists. It's a drug that it's medically indicated for. So do they give AIDS patients for wasting syndrome? Do they give them other sorts of steroids for medical need?

The answer is yes. Well, hyperactive people can't even take Ritalin. You can't take, what is the one that everybody loves? Adderall. Adderall. That Adderall stuff. Apparently there's something called Provigil. Do you know what that is?

It's Provigil. Provigil. Yeah. That's Modafinil. That's what I got busted for. Did you really? When? I was the first guy that was given that to world-class athletes.

That's what Kelly White got tested for? Yeah. That's what they give to fighter pilots and helicopter pilots, and they use it in the military. That's the first positive test that came down associated with me was Kelly White with Provigil in 2003. Provigil is what Dave Asprey takes. He didn't tell us that. Yeah, it's called a wakefulness promoting agent. That crazy bulletproof exec guy? Yeah.

That guy takes Provigil. He takes it like every day. There's a whole video of him promoting it, and they make him not take it for a couple days, and he's talking about how cloudy he is, and then he takes it and he works 20 hours a day. There's a little more to his story than what he was telling us. I feel like he left that out. Yeah, that's pretty important. That is pretty important.

So it's like a form of kind of like an Adderall? Is that what it is? A more intense Adderall? Yes. I don't know if it's more intense. I just think it's different. Well, if the government's involved, it's probably more intense. Well, I think everybody, I think a lot of, the argument was that a lot of Silicon Valley

execs are high on this stuff all day long. I know you get it. And college students. College students. Yeah. There was an article that said how many Silicon Valley execs are hop up on Provigil, that's how you say it? Provigil.

Provigil. Apparently it's the fucking drug of choice. He totally didn't tell us about that. He's like, I'm eating yak meat and shit. Like, how about the fact you're on fucking speed? Cat hair. You got to eat cat hair every day. He was talking to us about all these great things,

and I really believe him about all those great things, but I think the speed helps him, too. Yeah, that's probably the number one thing. You're on top of shit because you're on fucking speed, man. But awesome speed right here. The difference with Olympic caliber testing and what the Nevada State Athletic Commission is doing, giving these guys these TRTs, is it's a completely different standard. I mean, I don't think any of these guys, the six or whatever it is, MMA fighters,

that have these therapeutic use exemptions for testosterone in Nevada. There's quite a few. There's a lot now or whatever it is mma fighters that have these these therapeutic use exemptions for testosterone there's quite a lot of whatever it is yeah whatever it is uh the number in olympic sport uh for who knows a hundred thousand athletes you know there's ten thousand eleven thousand that compete at the olympics The total in that group is something like 24. You've already got 10 out of 375 guys in the UFC. Yeah, but you also have to deal with the fact that these guys are getting a lot of head trauma. Head trauma reduces your body's ability to produce testosterone. I agree that that's certainly a factor.

Yeah, that's sort of an unknown factor. And that's happening to, that's one of the reasons for depression in a lot of athletes that have gotten a lot of head trauma. The pituitary gland is apparently very sensitive. It doesn't like getting knocked the fuck out. And if it happens a few times, it can get damaged and it can stop your ability to produce hormones at a regular rate. And if it's a proper medical diagnosis, which takes about four months to be properly done, not one test and, hey, everything looks good and get the prescription.

I mean, there's all sorts of things that if you wanted to manipulate the system, you use steroids, it suppresses your endogenous production, you get a low reading, and you get a script. Yes, that's common knowledge. It's very easy to trick the system if the standard is very low like it is in Nevada. And also the ethical way to treat a patient would be to try to address their nutrition and minerals and vitamins first before you would introduce some sort of exogenous. How do you say it?

Exogenous. Exogenous. Before you would introduce a foreign form of hormones. Well, that's exactly what I said about Lamont Peterson. When the guy gets one test and they put the pellet in, rest the guy for a week and come back and take a second measurement. Make sure before you do this procedure. And it's just wham, bam, and then they're in, and it is what it is. And it's something that I'm not sure.

It may or may not be medically indicated in each one of these cases where these guys are being granted these exemptions. The issue sort of gets to a point where the door's already open. So now what? It's like when you got Chael Sutton and Dan Henderson. These are the vocal ones who have talked openly about it, and it's quite a few other guys. Forrest Griffin was just on it for his last fight,

and it becomes one of those issues where you're like, okay, at what point in time did we take a look at this? Because one of two things is going on, right? These guys are in their 30s and they need testosterone. So it's either they're taking damage and the damage is messing up their body. And if that's the case, should they really be competing in combat sports? And if the only way for them to compete at their own best level in combat sports is to take hormones, it might be time to stop competing in combat sports. I mean, if you want to live the rest of your life and take synthetic hormones and feel better because you take them, that's one thing. But maybe you shouldn't be getting hit in the head anymore, too.

And someone needs to say that at a certain point in time. Or maybe there should be a master's category over a certain age. Well, there should be a reason. Why is a 25-year-old man on testosterone? What's going on? You need to tell him. There's got to be a reason. And it can't simply be that he took testosterone for a while and fucked up his balls. Because that seems to me, that's a mess.

If you do that, I'm not saying that you should never be able to compete anymore, but I'm kind of saying that because you're going to always have a level that's constant and consistent and artificial, and it has nothing to do with how you're taking care of your body. It has to do with what you're sticking in a CC, what you're sticking in a needle. That gets a little weird. And when they argue about, well, it's the standard deviation, I hear Keith Kaiser talk about, well, I'm worried about this guy,

this one out of 500 or one out of 1,000 that may have this level. And how about all the other guys that are competing against guys that may have a competitive advantage because they've hoodwinked the system to get a competitive edge by using testosterone how about giving vision checks to those people that you have for judges how about that how about asking them what is what's a triangle look like can you show me on somebody what a triangle looks like and is he okay here or is he in trouble what's going on here this is a choke or is this not a choke this is is this guy about to tap or is this nothing you do you even

fucking know there's some of the some of the scorecards that come in, you just go, how is that even possible that in the Super Bowl of MMA, at the top of the peak, these athletic commissions are providing these judges and they're providing them over and over again. And the same ones make terrible decisions after terrible decisions. They need to clean up a lot of that shit. I agree.

It drives me fucking crazy when i see a guy fight his heart out and i see a bad decision that drives me nuts man that is a sad sad thing to see to see incompetence and nonsense cost someone a victory and you see that look of their face like i know i fucking beat that guy and then you go over the watch the tape but maybe i was biased maybe i was there. Maybe I was looking at it the wrong way. Let me watch it again. And you watch it again. It's like, who the fuck was – it doesn't even make any sense.

See, in a word, what you just said about all of the above is it's a mess. Yeah, everything's a mess, right? Politics are a mess. This is a mess. The Olympics are a mess. All of it's a mess. is a mess the olympics are a mess all of it's a mess so you what you do with these guys like kyle kingsbury and nonito donair is uh you keep them on the straight and narrow with the best possible legal ways of helping your body yes and to make sure they're not what is zma zma is your your

that's zinc magnesium what else is in there yeah Yeah, it's zinc, magnesium, and vitamin B6 and its specific forms of zinc and magnesium that are very bioavailable. And it's actually the very first product that was introduced to the sports nutrition market to specifically enhance sleep efficiency and a product that you take at night before you go to bed. And it boosts testosterone too, doesn't it? Well, a number of things happen. During sleep, the first time that you're, you go through about three cycles of five stages. And when you get to, it looks like three U's in a row. So when you get to the bottom of this, it's called delta or slow wave or stage three, stage

four sleep. The first time that you go into this very deep sleep where your heart rate is significantly reduced, 70% of your body's daily output of growth hormone is released in a single burst, this mass that they can measure. And there's all sorts of things that light, sound, temperature that can affect you not going into a very deep sleep. So that's one of the things is to target relaxing the body with magnesium and getting you into a very deep and restful sleep. And the little bit of B6 is to double the absorption of both the zinc and magnesium. So the first half of sleep is when most of your daily output of growth hormone is released.

The second four hours is when your system produces testosterone. So this is why guys wake up with a woody. Your testosterone level is double in the morning compared to what it is in the evening. Testosterone level is double in the morning compared to what it is in the evening. So I realized that when do you maximize tissue repair, healing, recovery, regeneration, and that's at night when you're sleeping. So that's why I put together that formula, and it was instantly a very huge success, selling hundreds of thousands of bottles a month. And now there's over 130 companies selling it worldwide. It's everywhere.

I'm taking that. It works. There was no competition. You had pre-workout, post-workout, meal replacements, diet supplements, but not a sleep product. So when it got introduced, it became very successful and continues to be very successful. Have you heard of secrotropin?

It's a new liposomal growth hormone replacement. very successful and continues to be very successful. Have you heard of secrotropin? It's a new liposomal growth hormone replacement. You spray it on your tongue. It's arginine, all these different... Do you think it works? I don't know. I don't think it does. No, I think this one actually has tests behind it. It's by a doctor, Dr. Mark Gordon.

He's the guy that was famous for working with James Toney and a bunch of other athletes. He works with a lot of soldiers that have traumatic brain injury. If the basis is arginine, the original studies… Don't listen to me, dude. …where they showed the connection between arginine and growth hormone levels was an Italian study. But to get any increase in growth hormone took 17 grams or 17,000 of arginine you'd have to take a whole bottle yeah no that's just it's there's something about the way um they've uh they've they've made a liposomal delivery um something about the way they've used frequency to seal

yeah but the way they've uh managed to make the molecule smaller by some sort of a process, it was explained to me by a guy way fucking smarter than me. But because of the fact that it fits into your blood cells, that in this liposomal delivery that it actually is effective, supposedly. But it's a bunch of amino acids and other different things. They've shown in clinical tests of over 11 different years of a bunch of various tests that it's effective. Do you need a prescription for your boner cream? You have boner cream?

I mean, steroid cream? It doesn't happen anymore, man. ZMA is not a boner cream. No, the stuff that you put on at night. ZMA is zinc and magnesium. Yeah. It's pills. We have two forms.

It's capsule as well. Oh, you have a cream? No, we have a powdered drink. Oh, okay. You can't. Because if you had a cream, Brian would beat off with it. Why did I think it was a cream? Why did you think it was a cream?

I don't know. He said boner. Well, it's minerals, right? I mean, or amino acids, right? No, it's minerals. And it does have methionine and some amino acids in it. Yes, aspartic acid, it does. And arginine is good to take at night too, right?

Isn't it? There's a lot of things that you should take at night that are really, you know, I'm a big fan of casein micellar protein to take at night. There's other better forms like whey protein isolates that have a higher rate of protein synthesis to take immediately after you work out. But when you're sleeping, you need a type that will bring that positive nitrogen balance for a longer period of time. Where whey protein isolates, the effect is about three hours. The casein micellar is about seven hours.

Is that why people take cottage cheese at night, too? Because it takes a long time to digest? So it gives you a slow burn protein. And do you make athletes wake up to take protein, or is that bullshit? You mean in the middle of the night? Yeah, I hear that. Well, fanatical bodybuilders wake up in the middle of the night to do an injection of growth hormone.

Jesus Christ. I didn't mean that. I meant, do they get up in the middle of the night and drink a shake? I've heard, like, what's that chick's name that was in that movie Million Dollar Baby? She got all yoked. Hillary Swank. Swank. i always thought she was hot a lot of people don't they think she's kind of manly i think you're fucking crazy

she looks buck wild to me you know i'm saying victor but anyway she got real yoked when she was in that movie and uh she said that she had to get up in the middle of the night and drink protein shakes you know one of the other very important things that I think people overlook is hydration. Right. I see a lot of guys, MMA fighters, that just are dehydrated, and they just don't drink adequate fluids. I don't know if I should talk about a specific guy, but there's a high-level MMA guy that just was having all sorts of issues with his training and performance, and he was dried up like a prune.

Who is it? Josh Thompson. Really? Wow. Well, he looked fucking tremendous in his last fight. Did you work with him? Yes. Well, it makes sense,

because he's like one of those wrestler dudes that would probably overtrain a little bit and wind up dehydrated and just kind of suck it up and keep going. But he, apparently his wife helps him, and whatever time it is he goes to train, she gets up and takes the bottles of water and puts numbers on them. And by the time she gets home, he better have been drinking the sixth one before he goes on. But he's drinking about 10, 16-ounce bottles of water a day now, where before he just, whenever he was thirsty or he didn't even really think about it,

and through the testing we were able to determine that he was just very dehydrated. And that, just that one simple piece of information and change, according to, you know, Javier Mendez, his coach made a huge difference in his training and performance. Yeah, I found out that I was dehydrated once by taking one of those body fat tests where you stand on something. I had taken one recently, and it registered me like 3% or 4% higher in body fat than I knew I was. And I was like, that's crazy. I go, that seems weird. Is it not that accurate?

And he's like, the only time it's inaccurate is if you're dehydrated. And I was like, oh, I'm dehydrated. And so I started drinking water again. I drank water, took it again, and my body fat was 4% lower. It was like it reads an electrical frequency through your body, and when there's no water in your body, it's not firing as good. It's more resistance. And so your whole body operates with more resistance.

It has less energy. It literally has less electricity pulsing through it. It has less juice. One of the things that I have these MMA fighters and boxers do, a lot of times they have to cut, obviously, to make weight. There's a number of things involved there. When it comes time after the weigh-in to

hyperhydrate, I have them take Celtic sea salt and a quarter teaspoon and 16 ounces of water and drink at least two before they shift over to Cytomax or Pedialyte or some other form of electrolyte replacement.

Two teaspoons of the salt? No, quarter teaspoons, which would have about 500, 600 milligrams of sodium. So all in all, half a teaspoon in two glasses of water. That's right. Would be the first thing after the weigh-in. That was one of the things that Dave Asprey had said that he does every morning. He said that people are missing out on that. And the reason,

a lot of people don't realize this, but seawater has almost the identical concentration of minerals and trace elements as the fluid portion in your blood, called serum or plasma. So by far, the highest concentration of any mineral or element is sodium,

at about 3,000 parts per million. But you also have calcium at about 100 parts, potassium and phosphorus at about 150 parts. These other trace elements are very important. So when it comes time to replete and come back up, you want to have the exact same ratio of all these minerals and trace elements in your system first.

And of course, the sodium is what causes the retention. I have guys do this before they fight as well because you'll retain throughout the course of a fight the amount of fluid that you retain is much greater if you sodium load. What a tricky, tricky fucking thing. It is that everybody is like 90 plus whatever it is.

Percent water, whatever. What percentage is it? Probably 70. We live next to the ocean and we can't even drink that shit. Isn't that fucked up? You can't even drink it. It's like,

that's on nature's like, you know what? We got to make it way harder for you to get water. If we let you guys drink all this water, there'd be no ocean. If humans could drink all the water, we'd just suck it right out. And then secondly, what a lot of people don't realize is that your skin is the largest organ in your body. So I have guys take baths after the weigh-in, but not hot baths because it's thermogenic. It would go out.

They do that to cut. But room temperature baths for 10 minutes, and their system soaks water like a sponge. Right through their skin. Epsom salts is an excellent source of magnesium. You absorb magnesium through your skin through Epsom salt baths. That's why people have always, you know, like people say, oh, you take an Epsom salt bath. Like, what the fuck is that going do for you you know it sounds like stupid but then you realize that your skin actually absorbs the magnesium from that absolutely

which is very important for muscle relaxation you know people that drink epsom salt yeah that's only to just to blow it out like if you got a problem man that will blow it out your system just goes release the hounds. That's how all the girls in L.A. stay fit. Yeah, you'll find pieces of your furniture that you didn't know you ate flying out of your ass into the toilet. You'd be surprised, these basic things we're talking about, the guys at the very top.

Like Josh is an example. He's a small guy, but, yeah, just trained like crazy listen, you know, we found something here that could be very important. His last fight with Gilbert Melendez, he looked sensational. If you can attribute that to you figuring out that he was dehydrated, that's amazing. Because that was the, you know, I know that they've had fights before and Gil's a fucking super tough guy. And that was the best Josh had ever looked against him. He looked sensational. Just a great fight. It was one of those fights where you're kind of sad that

anybody won. It was such a close fight. I'm certainly not a judge but I thought Josh did win. I thought he could have won easily. He had a lot of those sweet takedowns too where he was sort of choke slamming them, you know, tripping them.

And it was just, he just looked great. He had great endurance, fought well on his feet. It was a great fight. And Melendez is fucking awesome. I love watching that guy fight. Imagine the effect if we're talking about the red blood cells are delivering oxygen and removing these metabolic waste byproducts with every breath. removing these metabolic waste byproducts with every breath. Well, if you're well hydrated, it's like having an eight-lane freeway,

and all of a sudden you get dehydrated, and now you've got a three-lane freeway. It's a lot more difficult to deliver and pick up and remove when you're not well hydrated. So the sodium and carbohydrate and other things that can help, you know, you will sweat less, you will retain the fluids, it will tremendously improve your stamina and endurance. Sodium. Sodium and carbs. People have always told you all your life, keep away from salt. Sodium's bad. Sodium makes you retain water and get fat and have heart attacks.

Isn't that funny? Victor Conte and Dave Asprey are telling you to put sea salt. Dave went as far as Himalayan sea salt because he's that kind of pimp. Well, and they're not all the same, so he's right. There is some sea salt that doesn't have these other minerals and trace elements that I'm talking about. I've had athletes buy the wrong type. Oh, well, he said you should get that stuff, too, because there's less pollution.

It's pure. Now, when you see like top, do you monitor top training camps? So you see like the Diaz brothers and the Cesar Gracies and you see those guys. Do you try to figure out, okay, who's working smart? Who's using the proper blood testing and finding out what their nutritional requirements are? And who's just going old school Rocky drinking eggs in the morning and running hills? Usually guys come to me. I don't, you know, I'm not a hired gun. I don't go out to different camps or different fighters you don't pay attention to it

at all well i do but a lot of people come to me and you know want me to go to mexico or come to los angeles i'm 62 i'm kind of semi-retired i'm right down the street from undisputed boxing gym where nonito trains there in san carlos about four miles from my house. So athletes that want to come to where I am, that's where Josh comes, that's where Kyle comes, then I work with them. So I'm just really not out there pursuing opportunities. If it's fun, like I said, that's my mantra. If it's not fun, I don't do it. And the chemistry's right, then I help people. But I certainly don't do it

for the money it's it's uh really about just enjoying being in the trenches with athletes now this uh veda testing stands for the voluntary anti-doping association is that what it is now this is uh for people that want to go above and beyond the requirements of athletic commissions that's for people that are saying okay i'm going to show the world that regardless of whether or not you think that the athletic commission's urinate tests are flimsy, we're going to take some voluntary tests that are much more stringent. We're going to find exogenous test tests. See, the key word here is voluntary.

Yes. So some people, this whole deal with the, quote, Olympic-style testing, which is not really what it is, but got started with Floyd Mayweather. He was the one that was demanding with Shane Mosley and Victor Ortiz and these other guys that he's fought that everybody that fights him, you know, if you want to fight the best, you've got to take the test mantra. But that's really not Olympic-style testing. You want to fight the best, you've got to take the test mantra. But that's really not Olympic-style testing.

That word doesn't apply at all to me because at the core of that definition is 24-7-365. And as I said earlier, if he's doing this eight weeks out from a fight, of course, if you're hungry, a half loaf of bread is better than none. But what was he doing six and nine months before, as we talked about? So you could load up like crazy for months and months still retain some of the benefits and then show up and retain a lot of the benefits and then show up at a fight and say okay you're the guy when you're ready to go into the testing and then drag him into it the following day is it a case of where there's smoke there's fire i mean with all these like manny pacquiao there's a perfect example manny pacquiao was he's gone through eight different weight classes manny pacquiao started off what was he a hundred and what six hundred six pounds all the way up to what was he fighting you know

when he fought margarito how big was margarito was like 168 in there but in there he was like 168 i mean that's incredible to go from 106 to fighting a big guy like Margarito. You know, a lot of people have accused him of stuff. Do you know anything? I'm highly suspicious. I've said this publicly. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that when you're not subjected to testing and, you know, do I think it's been going on for a very long time, including back in the Philippines?

That's my opinion is yes. I believe that he's been doing stuff. But I want to go back for just a minute to what you were asking about VADA and the aspect of being voluntary. And this is what Nonito is doing now, is he just stepped up, and this is the great thing that's different than USADA or commission testing, is that both fighters, you know, wherever they're fighting are going to be subjected to the same testing, or these guys now, we want a contract, and we're both going to do this testing, and here's who's going to do it. It's going to be VADA, it's going to be USADA, or whatever.

Nonito just entered a 24-7 365. He's in the pool just like an Olympic athlete, and whenever they come, and he's able to do this on an individual basis. So if his opponent wants to do it, great. If he doesn't want to do it, he offered it to the guy

from Japan that he fought the other night. The guy didn't have an interest? Okay, well, he didn't have an interest. But Nonito wants to show his fans and lead by example and show his sport that he's the real deal, that he has nothing to hide and everything to prove. So is this under VADA? Yes, it is. It is under VADA.

Do you have something to do with VADA? You know, I provide consultation to VADA and people talk about that as they're a conflict of interest and so on. I became an anti-doping advocate in 2005. That's when you went to jail? No, yeah, that is when I went to jail. That's a good reason to become, like, obviously this shit is not working out for me. It was actually before I went to jail.

I met twice with USADA, and it wasn't to give information on anybody. I didn't rat on anybody. I didn't rat on anybody. I didn't talk about specific athletes. It was just to talk to them about methods that I used to circumvent the testing and where these loopholes were. So like a hacker could give a company advice on how to keep their system from getting hacked. That's exactly what I did. And so I helped them.

I had three different meetings with them and went over thousands of pages of documents. And it wasn't an exchange for leniency. I got nothing out of it other than me trying to make a contribution to the collective effort. Thereafter, I helped Dwayne Chambers, a sprinter that I worked with from the UK. And he asked me to write a paper that listed every single drug that I gave him, the purpose, the frequency, the dosage, the UK, and he asked me to write a paper that listed every single drug that I gave him, the purpose, the frequency, the dosage, the brand, which I did. And so he submitted that to the UK anti-doping. And then some people from BBC, you know, asked me for my prescription. How would you clean this up?

And so I wrote a paper about, you know, how the testing could be set up in a way that would be much more effective, and that got submitted to WADA. And eventually they reached out to me and flew me to New York, and I met with the chairman at that time, Dick Pound, and spent a lot of time with him and worked on him. You like that name, huh? Dick Pound. Dick Pound. Dick Pound.

Dick Pound. Oh, Dick. And so, anyway, so I provided consultation with them and have worked on them with several different projects. And so Margaret Goodman from VADA reached out to me, and, yes, I provided consultation to her. Margaret Goodman, formerly of the Nevada State Athletic Commission. Yes. She was the chairman of the Medical Advisory Board for nine years, and her significant other, who's also the vice president of VADA, is Flip Homansky, who was the chairman of that same Nevada Medical Advisory Board for a decade before that.

He's actually the guy that implemented the very first anabolic steroid testing in the state of Nevada. Now, how is the distinction made between what is legal and what is illegal? Like ZMA, even though it's effective and it makes your body produce more testosterone and growth hormone and all this good stuff, that's it. Legal. Well, they have a committee and they have a

prohibited substances list. But is it based on efficacy? Because if that's the case, why isn't ZMA illegal? Well, you're saying anything that works is performance enhancing. So where do you draw that line? Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's a very good question.

And I'll tell you the interesting aspect and drastic difference between state commissions and WADA and USADA and VADA or anybody that follows the World Anti-Doping Code is the way their system works is everything is illegal unless you get permission from us. So any drug, I mean, whatever it is, so if you go to them and you say you need testosterone and you submit your medical records and you get one, but that's even actually more restrictive, if that makes sense. So you have to make a declaration. You have to tell us what you're taking in advance. And if we don't like what it is, then we'll let you know.

Do you feel like testosterone replacement shouldn't be a part of any sport? Do you feel like it might as well be cheating or it's just too easy to manipulate? It's very easy to manipulate. I've talked about this as an example with baseball players when they had a couple of positive tests for synthetic testosterone recently, actually three of them, and there's been seven or eight in the last six months. These fast-acting creams and gels, they can play a game, 10 o'clock, they rub this cream on after the game.

It peaks at about four hours in the system aiding with recovery and and tissue repair by eight hours they're back down to baseline but six hours later they're below the four to one te ratio so they can use it every single day to enhance recovery after games and they will never test positive wow and how long does this stay inside your system for like beta testing here's what i what i recommend and in fact before ryan braun the mvp who tested positive that was the home run guy uh and in fact he's up this year i think for the same title but i said back then when they got ready to introduce growth hormone that was a huge mistake and it was a waste of money. Growth hormone, in my opinion, and according to the researchers at Stanford, does not enhance performance.

Will it help you burn body fat? Yes. Will it help you make your muscles bigger? Yes. Will it help accelerate the healing and tissue repair, connective tissue, ligament, tendon type injury? Yes. Does it make your muscles stronger and faster? The answer is no. help accelerate the healing and tissue repair, connective tissue, ligament, tendon type injury? Yes.

Does it make your muscles stronger and faster? The answer is no. But it helps you heal. So if you're recovering, it helps you recover quicker from, you know, you can work out harder. So it does enhance. Well, the studies that they've done, there's no science showing that it makes you stronger or faster. Right, but isn't that sort of illogical? Listen to what I just said say i understand i understand it so like i said it burns body fat makes the muscles bigger makes the tissue doesn't make you stronger or faster right bottom line is if it's for cosmetics and you're a bodybuilder no no no you said it makes tissue recover faster

and that is the point of working out your workout your tissue breaks down it gets stronger and it heals quicker if you're on growth hormone that alone so you're saying means you can train get a deeper training well yeah it allows you to train harder it allows you to recover faster than normal which is a big part of what training is all about training is not just training and you get stronger the harder you work you get stronger no you have to recover. And if you're recovering at an unnatural rate because you're taking growth hormone, then guess what? Growth hormone is allowing you to get stronger.

Here's the argument. I don't think you can compare testosterone to growth hormone. No. Growth hormone is anabolic. Testosterone is classified as an anti-catabolic agent. It's not even classified as being anabolic All I'm saying is that you can't say I mean, whatever their study says

It doesn't make you stronger That's silly, that's a silly study It allows you to train harder Let me back up It was a review of every single study ever performed And not a single one of them showed that it did make you stronger or faster It's a review article. But all these athletes take it, and they all claim that it makes them stronger.

You want to know why? Yes. Because they stack it with steroids, and the steroids help you create the protein synthesis. It's a leapfrog. You make the gains, and then it helps you with the retention of those gains. So the growth hormone and the steroids together are effective. The growth hormone by itself does not make you stronger.

Candy flipping. That's it. They're candy flipping like a motherfucker, Brian. Wow. And how did all this information get mainstream? I mean, was it Soviet scientists? Who was the first person to figure out how to manipulate hormones and add different things? Okay, we'll talk about Dianabol, the first American steroid, in a minute.

Okay. This guy Ziegler, weightlifting coach for the United States in the 50s, got it from the Soviet bloc. He knew they were doing stuff. But I want to go back to this other point about testosterone. Okay, please do. I forget what I was saying. How dare you? You wanted to to go back but you don't know where the fuck you're going well what we were talking about was introducing artificial testosterone and whether or not artificial

okay it was about baseball and ryan braun and and the specific test and i got a call from from the editor terry thompson of the new york daily news sports department she was asking for my comment and the specific test. And I got a call from the editor, Terry Thompson, of the New York Daily News Sports Department. She was asking for my comment about that they are going to do this growth hormone test in baseball and introduce it in the minor leagues. I said, it's not the highest and best priority for the funds that are available to do testing. They need to introduce this CIR, this carbon isotope ratio testing, because that has a significant effect upon performance, and the players are doing it on a daily basis, and they're coming back under the 4 to 1,

and it's a huge loophole, and they should, instead of doing this with growth hormone, which is an anti-catabolic agent, you could eliminate the use of the anabolic agent testosterone with those exact same dollars. They both cost about $400. Okay, and all this was, again, this is some of it's legal, some of it's illegal. Growth hormone across the board is illegal, correct? Everyone says it's illegal?

No, there's a lot of people that depends on a lot of other factors. I mean, doctors are prescribing it. It's off-label use. I don't know about the legality of it, but in places like Florida and Arizona and Nevada, there's a lot of these clinics that are for anti-aging longevity purposes. I'm sure they're legally prescribing it. Yeah, no, that's not what I mean. I mean for sports. I mean like for MMA, no one's legal to have human growth hormone.

I've never heard of a human growth hormone exemption because they can't test for it, correct? I don't believe they have an effective test for it. They've actually got two tests for it, and they use both of them at the recent Olympic Games. But they don't last very long. At the most, after an injection, they can possibly detect it maybe up to 36 hours. What's the future when it comes to this stuff?

Because it makes me think that if you're sticking pellets in your ass and butterflying them in there and all the different stuff, the creams and all this different jazz, how far are we from real genetic manipulation how far are we from something that changes human beings on you know on the the level of the information that's inside their cells i i don't think it's all that that close i mean they talked about when when is it going to be at the athens olympics is it going to be in beijing is it going to be in in london i mean i to be in Beijing? Is it going to be in London?

I mean, I still don't see gene doping. Do you think that it's possible? Yeah. It seems inevitable. That's my question. You're saying you don't see it. It's possible. You might not see it in a week or a month or a couple of years.

It's prohibited, and they're attempting to develop a test for it, and they're working in conjunction with these companies that are manufacturing these products. So it's going to happen. Isn't Monsanto involved in genetics now? I believe Monsanto is involved. It was maybe pharmaceuticals, whatever the fuck it was. You've got to get a company like Monsanto involved in the whole sports doping, performance enhancing. They'll figure out some shit.

They'll figure out how genetically modified humans. I want to go back and clarify my position, what I think about the use of testosterone. And because you have the ability through this carbon isotope ratio testing to differentiate between endogenous and exogenous testosterone, regardless of the delivery system, that it should be classified like all the rest of the anabolic steroids. In other words, it's not quantitative. Well, you can have up to four to one, or you can have allowed so much,

but over that, it either has to be, it's qualitative. You can either do it or you can't. You're either pregnant or you're not. Because as soon as you allow it on a quantitative basis, you're going to have the abuse that we're seeing now. I mean, it's – and where do you draw that line? What is abuse and what's not? I mean, it's a mess. Yeah, it is.

It's an interesting philosophical debate, you know, about what, you know, like I've heard guys say that they would take testosterone and they would take human growth hormone when they get to be 50 years old, but they will not take it while they're fighting because they don't want to ever think, the only reason why I got here is because I cheated, because I had to take something. I couldn't just do it with my willpower and I couldn't just do it with my willpower, and I couldn't just do it with my discipline. And then you got guys who just, you know, Rampage says he just started taking it. He never felt better. He said he was, like, really down in the dumps.

It was really bothering him. And now he's taking it. Well, it's recreational. It does make you feel good. I'm sure you probably know. Well, it's also, it doesn't just make you feel good. It actually makes your body perform better. Of course.

So is that fair? I mean, what happens there? I mean, it's obviously legal. They've made it legal. In Nevada, they've, in most, you know, in California, California even made medical marijuana legal. So, I mean, you can have medical marijuana exemptions now. So it's allowed. So is that a mistake?

I don't think it's a mistake. I have a lot of personal friends that are on testosterone replacement therapy. Are they professional athletes that are fighters? No. See, that's where it gets weird, right? Back in pre-Balco raid days from 1996 through 2003,

I was on TRT and absolutely loved the effects and did it moderately. Yeah, but you weren't fighting. No. The real question is, should it be okay for guys to compete in a sport where your goal is to punch someone in the head? And you can turn your body into a far more efficient killing machine when you're juiced up on the sauce. And there's absolutely no doubt about the effects. I mean, how the tremendous advantage that it gives you in terms of power and speed.

It's huge. Well, that's why it's weird. It's like this is a different sport. It's not as simple as, you know, you just want to look better. No, no, you can hurt someone more. And you can hurt someone in a situation where maybe you couldn't hurt them. Like when Cyborg tested positive

and everybody said, first of all, they said, duh. And then after they said, duh, they said, well, think about the beating that she gave Gina Carano. Would she have even been able to do that if she was natural, if she wasn't just ridiculously freakish

man like strong and she says that's the only time she ever did anything and who the fuck am i to guess but from what i've talked to we had a hormone doctor on the show he's got dr steve graham and he said this is not even possible for a woman to look like that if she's not taking testosterone i have a friend named bill romanowski who once, as soon as an athlete starts to use drugs, they become a liar. Yeah, especially in a sport like that, in MMA, and you're a woman. No woman wants to admit she's got man juice inside of her, flowing through her veins, forcing her to look all manly. I want to get some of this testosterone. I saw the other day a thing about how when you turn 35,

your body just starts losing it like crazy. I don't think I had any to begin with, so now I'm negative, I think. You're like a void? You're a girl. You're basically a girl. But you have a beard. But the symptoms were like you're just really tired. Let me also smoke cigarettes.

The research is that at 30 years of age, you begin to decline by about 1% per year. So by the time you're 45, you might have a 15% reduction. And at this recent Association of Ringside Physicians meeting, they presented some data, and they said that of the men over 45, that 8% had a medical need for testosterone replacement therapy. So it's not like you hit 35 and it's over. It's a very gradual decline. Well, it's also what we talked about earlier, that an ethical person, when they want to adjust your hormones, the first thing they're going to look at is your diet, your exercise, and your sleep patterns. This motherfucker's a mess.

And yet he wants to stick pellets in his ass. He's just looking for a way to stick pellets in his ass so he can still smoke cigarettes. No, I'm just always really, really tired. Well, come on, sweetie. You're not that healthy. I know. You know that. You're smoking cigarettes.

It's one of the least... Tell them. Tell them about cigarettes, Victor. You're a man of science's one of the least. Tell them. Tell them about cigarettes, Victor. You're a math science. Do you want one? They're loaded with cadmium, which inhibits the absorption of zinc. And zinc reduction lowers androgen receptors and increases estrogen receptors. So keep smoking and you'll become more feminine.

And if you don't have zinc in your body, you have smaller loads. That's right. The seminal volume is reduced. And if you don't have zinc in your body, you have smaller loads. That's right. The seminal volume is reduced. I must have a lot of zinc. I like how he said it. I think the way I said it sounded sexier, though. Smaller loads. They're like, semen reduction has been observed.

There's a famous study by Dr. Ohm, and he was trying to figure out why alcoholics develop feminine-like characteristics. And alcohol depletes zinc. And over time, that reduces your testosterone. That reduces the number and size of androgen receptors. And then increases the number of estrogen receptors. So if you're an alcoholic, you better load up on zinc. All right, I need to get some zinc ASAP. Zinc and water.

Yeah, alcohol is also an immunosuppressant, right? What exactly does that do to your system when you drink alcohol? And zinc is a very powerful immunostimulant. You know about zinc throat lozenges and zinc is everywhere. It's great when you're sick. It's the most anabolic of all minerals. Really? Absolutely.

There's no question. At first, it was in many different diseased populations. You ever heard about the discovery of zinc deficiency? I have, yeah. Ananda Prasad in 1961 in Iran, and then they confirmed a study in in again in 63 in egypt long story short they had a group of uh teenage male boys with with uh dwarf dwarfism and hypogonadism and and they found out there was a high percentage of clay in the diet that was inhibiting the absorption of zinc and they gave them 50 milligrams of zinc a day

and in a period of one year they grew over a foot in height and the size of their sexual organs over doubled okay how much zinc should i take every day like 200 milligrams like zinc makes your dick grow son is it safe to take zinc every day or is that something you just want to do in limited not in excess yeah i wouldn't take the upper limit. They say it's 40 milligrams. ZMA contains 30 milligrams per serving. ZMA. So I wouldn't go too crazy because then you lower copper and then you start having connective tissue ligament tendon type issues. So how much a day?

How many grams? 30. 30 milligrams. 30 milligrams. 30 milligrams of a bioavailable form. They're not all the same. Don't go to Walgreens or CVS and buy some cheap form. The one you want to avoid is any sort of zinc gluconate or zinc oxide or zinc sulfate.

The absorption is very, very low. So you want zinc monomethionine or zinc citrate or there's other forms that zinc aspartate that are much more bioavailable is there a certain brand that i should look for or that you recommend yeah what's your brand well you just the brand of zma is is look on the label if it says zma is a trademark of snack then you know it comes from from comes from the real deal that comes originally from me. Muscle Farm has it. Optimum has it. Twin Lab has it.

Almost every company out there has it. Do you have, as yours, have you giving a big, balko thumbs up? Like Victor Conti, your big smiling face? It doesn't? No, it has the double bicep. You should do it, likeman's pizza like newman's own pizza sauce you know newman's own popcorn he's got his face you should go for that your own line of the victor conte approved um purchased serious did you just get some damn look at you

that's how that's how serious brian is about his depletion. That's the healthiest way to do it, zinc? Well, you know, you've got to look at the food sources. The reason I would recommend that you do it in supplements is by a tenfold factor, the highest food source for zinc is oysters. Which, as always, people say helps the sex drive. You like oysters? Yeah, but it's an aphrodisiac and all the rest of that. So that's a lot of people don't.

Some people do like oysters. A lot of people do not. How many oysters do you have to eat to run up to? Oh, half a can a day. Half a can? You know, the little cans. Oh, cans. Jesus.

Who the fuck's eating cans? Grass-fed oysters. Yeah, that's bullshit. What are you going to eat? Fresh? You're going to go to the oyster bar? Yeah, you've got to get fresh ones. Eat a dozen? Yeah, because if you get them in a can, man, you're getting all the, that's bullshit. What are you going to eat fresh? You're going to go to the oyster bar? Yeah, you've got to get fresh ones. Eat a dozen?

Yeah, because if you get them in a can, man, you're getting all the shit that's in a can. You mean like sodium and other preservatives? Yeah, and I guess they don't have the same issues that sardines do, but canned sardines. I had my blood work done, and it showed high levels of arsenic. You were talking about nutritionally dense foods

earlier in the greens. They're also loaded with cholesterol. Greens? Take a supplement. No, oysters. Oh. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Salad is loaded with cholesterol?

Jesus Christ. No, oysters. Oysters. Well, according to guys like Rob Wolf, these paleo guys, they say cholesterol is not the problem. The problem is that people are, first of all, they're eating a bunch of shitty foods, and that they're eating a bunch of grains and pastas and gluten-based products,

and that they're not getting fat from animals that live off a healthy diet, grass-fed diets. You know, and that a body that lives under grass-fed meat and grass-fed milk is actually far healthier than cows that are eating grains and fucking up their entire body so that they can have good marbling for the steak.

Do you advise fighters on what type of protein they take in their body, and how do you do that? Well, different species at different times. Sometimes you take a blend. Sometimes you take – you're talking about protein powders, or you're talking about food sources. Animals. Food. I mean you can protein powder all you want but at the end of the day there's

benefits to animal protein that you're not going to get from whey. It's like whey powder, right? Right. What do you advise them as far as... I really don't make specific recommendations about what type of meat and in terms of food sources. It doesn't have enough of an impact? With compliance.

No, I think it's important. But if you had to advise and if someone, you wanted them to listen to you, what would you say? Like as far as like if you had to give, you know, if someone has your ear, they give you their ear rather 100%. They're like, listen, please tell me everything to do. What should I eat? You mean in terms of chicken, fish and these types of... Optimum success, yeah.

Well, one thing about red meat that I advise people is cut it up into small pieces. You don't want these big chunks. They're very difficult to digest and metabolize. So a lot of guys really, when they're starving to make weight, before a fight, they want to eat red meat. And I always advise them to cut it up into very small pieces because you can really slow things down by trying to digest big chunks of meat. And you should really chew the shit out of it too. Cut it up really small pieces. A lot of people don't like to chew their food.

They just like to wolf it. Then have pasta and some sort of a lean hamburger meat or something. Yeah, it feels good. Pasta and big chunks of meat all together. Shut the fuck up, you son of a bitch. This Olive Garden. You don't know. You come here for one show. I'm here for 300 of them. I hear this Olive Garden

hundreds of times. This kid brings it up. That's Nonito's favorite place. He goes to eat. Oh, no. What have you done? What have you done, Mr. Connie? I hate to let the cat out of the bag, but I've been with him to Olive Garden many times. You guys talked together before the show.

You talked before the show, Brian. That's not... You cheated. Do you enjoy it yourself, sir? I'm sorry for sniffling in front of the microphone, ladies and gentlemen. I love how yesterday you were like, I never get sick. I don't. This is rare.

This fucking travel from Brazil. I was hungover, too. I brought you some ZMA. Yeah. Saturday night, I had a little absent with oh you did yeah like the legit stuff yeah how was it it's fucking ridiculous but you don't feel good the next day and then i flew so i caught a little wee bit of a cold it's rare for me but it's not even a real cold it's just sniffles like i worked out i feel great you know it's just uh

i just got this little sniffle thing going on. And I also drank some milk because I don't give a fuck. They say, Joe, dude, milk will make your body produce more phlegm. Well, then it should stop being delicious because I'm just going to have to fuck. I'm not just going to eat my cookies without milk, son of a bitch. I know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm living life, god damn it. Living life.

If it's not fun, don't do it. Yeah, but come on, man. That's exactly what you... But, you know, I don't want to get arrested for cookies and milk. Have you seen these people that are getting arrested for raw milk, though? Have you seen all that? I think I got a contact high in here. I bet you did.

Yeah, you got one the moment you walked in, son. What do you think about these people that are getting arrested for raw milk? I mean, are you a nutrition fan or are you just a fan of what works on performance athletes? More about that. That, yeah. So what do you eat yourself? Do you just eat like a fucking wild animal? You eat whatever you want?

Burgers? I eat what my wife cooks and she's the best in the world. Is it? She's Asian. Oh, there you go. Shazam, son. You should go to the Olive Garden with Brian. Oh, double date.

You got to go on an Asian double date. Fucking freaks. Triple date. Paul W. So do you train yourself? Do you exercise? You know, I actually came here through the airport in a wheelchair. A wheelchair?

Yeah, I've got some health issues that I'm dealing with now. The bottom vertebrae slip forward about 30%, and I've got a pinched nerve, and it's really even difficult to walk. Whoa. So I've been having some pretty serious health issues, and I go tomorrow for an MRI, and then it's likely I'm going to have to have surgery. So most recently, I've been really struggling with a lot of pain. How did you injure yourself? I don't know. I was a triple jumper in high school and college, and maybe that was a part of it. It could be genetic, the doctor said. I've had this for a long time. I mean, throughout the whole Balco trial back from 2004 forward, I would have

difficulty even standing up. We went We made 15 appearances in federal court. So I've always had this problem. But then a while back, this bottom disc just slipped, or vertebrae, excuse me, slipped forward and started pinching the nerve. And I've been really having problems. So I haven't been. I would just think that working with all these guys and helping all these athletes,

you'd want to try some of that shit. Oh, yeah. When Barry Bonds keeps coming back and he's bigger and bigger, you're like, God damn, Barry, how's it feel? Come on, man. What's it like being Superman? I was the original guinea pig for a lot of this stuff. And what was it?

I mean, you really felt a significant difference between how you felt? Absolutely. I mean, for really felt a significant difference between how you felt. Absolutely. I mean, for about seven years. But then once this 26-man SWAT team with helicopters and assault rifles and flak jackets came crashing through the door, things changed. Was it really 26 people come to get you? Absolutely. Crazy. I mean, just they're back in the original building.

It was just like you would imagine a SWAT team going after bank robbers. They pulled up in six, seven black cars. They filed out. They all got their guns and got in a row. I could see them through the window. And then they just crashed through the front door screaming, anybody got any weapons? All of a sudden, there's all these guns being pointed at us. And the helicopter came.

How many people were in there? Three of us came hovering over the window. No, it was just myself, my VP, and the helicopter came. How many people were in there? Three of us came hovering over the window. No, it was just myself, my VP, and the office manager. Wow. And it was a crazy, crazy experience. And so did you have any inkling that this was going to ever happen? Oh, I knew they were coming. You knew they were coming?

Absolutely. They were going through my trash every single week for an entire year. They were copying my mail on a daily basis, the mailman told us. Here's basically what happened. A guy across the freeway from Balco called up and said, you guys need to come get your trash out of my trash bin because I'm going to call the police. So we went over there and found our garbage and brought it back over and had the big black garbage bag. And inside all the little white garbage bags throughout the whole 7,000 square foot lab facility, you could see that they'd been going through these.

And then, so we got a call a couple weeks later and said, listen, I told you to get this stuff out of here. So we went back over there and got it again. So I decided, you know what, let's just call the police ourselves. So we called the Burlingame Police Department. They came out. We filed a police report. They went over, and Jeff Nowitzki was illegally dumping the trash, violating whatever the penal code is for using somebody else's dumpster. the penal code is for using somebody else's dumpster.

And so they ended up writing an article about this in the Burlingame Boutique and Villager, the little rag newspaper there in Burlingame, and apparently they delivered it to Nowitzki's door, and he realized that we were on to him. So shortly thereafter, here came the SWAT team. They thought we were going to cover up all the evidence and destroy things, and they needed to act quickly, so they hustled and put together this SWAT team and there was customs and narcotics and IRS and many different agencies. How stressful was that for you? Well, it was crazy.

I mean, it was surreal. You never thought you would see a SWAT team? Well, you probably don't remember this, but they had it on CNN. It was all staged. And how I know this is as soon as they came after us inside the building with the guns and they marched us to the front door, we sat in the lobby. And I could look right out the front door. And next thing you know, here comes the ABC, the NBC, the CBS trucks, and up go the satellite dishes.

And like, bam, I don't understand. Within a minute's time, here's all the news. And, in fact, ultimately, I was able to get one of the people at NBC through a reporter that I knew who had taken a picture of the helicopter. that I knew who had taken a picture of the helicopter. And as it turned out, they said in these legal documents that they didn't have a helicopter there. But it was hovering so close to the front door that the louvers over the window actually cracked from the vibration. And I managed to get a picture of the helicopter

and get the number off of it and trace it over the the bay there to hayward and it was a company called helinet we went to their website and they did all sorts of governmental work including the transport of nine u.s presidents so clearly it was them they just misrepresented this what really happened uh that day So what I'm trying to say is I found out that they contacted these newscasters. This is all illegal, by the way. They contacted these newscasters and said, park down the street with your vans, and we're going to raid this place, this Balco Laboratories, and we don't want you to film the actual raid,

but we want you to get the aftermath. So it was all staged for television. I mean, think about this. I believe that this was, in part, a diversion, a distraction from the war in Iraq. I mean, all of a sudden, I became the Saddam Hussein of sport. I was this bad guy. President Bush is talking about this in the State of the Union address.

John Ashcroft, the U.S. Attorney General, is announcing my indictment on the steps of the White House. Listen, I pled guilty to, I don't know if you know about units of in the federal guidelines but at that particular time a 10 cc bottle is one unit of any type of steroid 50 pills of any type of steroid was one unit uh i pled to 25 units understand that that's less than an ounce of marijuana. So why would you bring all this firepower, all these helicopters, all this news media? The whole thing was staged. 25 units.

Would that fit in a bag? Well, it would be 25 bottles of steroids that would have 50 tablets, or it would be 25 10cc bottles. So easily. That's the total amount. For folks who can't wrap their head around it, it would go in a lunchbox. It would go in a lunchbox. The total value of everything that they found was less than $1,500. And so they came in with 26 dudes in SWAT gear for assault rifles. A couple hundred bucks.

They penned us, yeah. That's incredible. So you get what I'm saying they knew that they had the names they knew that it was barry bonds and marion jones why do they care so much what is what is the motivation behind chasing i believe it's been about trophy hunting from day number one because you have you know there were 10 baseball players of those 10 i've got every single one of their grand jury testimonies they basically said the exact same thing as barry bonds he was the only one i believe it's clearly selective prosecution he was the only one that was indicted so it was all about

making an example because he's a famous guy because he's the most famous and he will bring the most headlines and he was the guy who was knocking in the most home runs. So go after him. And they didn't have enough money to prosecute everybody? Is that what it was? State's budgets didn't have enough money to prosecute all the athletes? Or did they have some sort of a deal with baseball? How does that work? Well, you hear all sorts of numbers, 55, 60, and beyond,

even before they took Barry Bonds, aside from Baukel with his own trial on perjury, they probably spent $100 million. Jesus. It's hard to understand why they... That's so crazy. Look, think about this aspect. Nowitzki, let me tell you how Baukel really started.

No one's heard this aspect. Nowitzki, let me tell you how Balco really started. No one's heard this story. Back in 1992, I was working with track athletes, including Greg DeFalas, the guy that I told you that tested positive and they covered up his drug test. And I was at the Bruce Jenner Classic in San Jose at San Jose City College. And I was working with a number of athletes that went to the College of San Mateo, which is where Nonito still does his track training. And Greg's coach,

we won't name him for now, was there, and I saw him. He was about 57 at the time. Now he's probably 70 years old, but he still coaches up there. And I walked up to the bend of the 200 meters. They were getting ready to start the race.

And all of a sudden, I realized that one of the young girls, she was 19 at the time. She became a national javelin champion, was standing there with his coach. And all of a sudden, she started scratching his arm, and he started rubbing her. And you could see that there was a little something going on there. Sexually. That the coach was doing the student. Oh, you son of a bitch. So I went back to Greg, and I said, Greg, do you know that your coach is doing the student?

And he said, dude, you don't know the half of it. We go to these meets, and we can't find him, and then we stumble over. We look all over the stadium, and by the time we get out to his van, he comes stumbling out, you know, buckling up his pants and stuff. And so this has been going on for a long time. Well, he told this person that I knew. Now, just so happened that his boss was a stockholder in Balcombe. He was afraid he was going to lose his job.

He was a San Francisco fireman. And he coached part-time. From that day on, that guy hated my guts. Every single time my name came up, it was bad things to say. Well, his younger brother is the coach of the high school where Greg's kids went that's right over the freeway from Balco. His best friend is Jeff Nowitzki. So Greg got mad at me i have to follow because when he found out i was giving designer stuff to to athletes he told his coach who told his brother who told novitsky and novitsky knew that was barry

bonds and all these elite athletes so for one one year, he came every single Monday night across the freeway. He still lives right over the freeway. And went through my trash until he found enough evidence to go to the prosecutor, Jeff Nedrow, and get $300 to buy a membership to the World's Gym right next door to Balco there where Barry Bonds was trained by Greg Anderson. And so all I'm saying is this is really how it started. God. The rest is history, as they say.

So trophy hunting. So essentially prosecutors that wanted a big-name case to make their careers. And so they went after guys like Barry Bonds. Didn't go after Mark McGuire that much, though, huh? Well, that was earlier. Yeah. That was five years earlier than this this was in 2003 but when he came out and he wanted to get that coaching job he had to sort of admit that he took steroids right yeah he did but everybody was like yeah it's okay you're a white guy barry bonds guys well it is what it is you know that in all of this that's the the bottom line when i

when i say and earlier you i said what you had described was a mess yeah this is a mess and my opinion what you have is one group of cheaters the athletes and those helping them being chased by another group of cheaters the law enforcement and anti-doping and they cheat equally as much if not more so than the athletes how do the anti-doping people cheat other than what you said before where they they get rid of some positive tests how are the that was a while ago right that was oh it's absolute propaganda by the government as well as the anti-doping. Really? Let me give you an example.

Okay. Kelly White, the one that I told you tested positive for Modafinil, the very first one. Yes. When they came to her, they said, and this is what they do and why I'm so grateful that I never considered cooperating with them in any way, shape, or form. But they came to her and they said, listen, you're going to get a two-year ban. We'll reinstate you in one year if you cooperate. Here's what we want you to do. They wrote a script, and they had her go around all over New York, Copenhagen, London, all these different places, and tell lies that they knew were absolute lies.

In other words, she'd used drugs for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003. They got all the drug calendars. They had them. But the story was, I went to this big bad wolf, Victor, and he told me that it was vitamins. But two weeks later, he called and told me that it was the real stuff. And then I didn't take it again all the way until 2003. And then from March until I became the double world champion. Then I took them again. She lied to the grand jury. It said she didn't inject EPO. She committed perjury.

They never went after her at all. Is there proof that she committed perjury? Absolutely. She's been with the black guy, James Brown, on HBO Real Sports later, he says, and I've got this video, did you use EPO? Yes, I did. Well, did you inject it? Yes.

Where did you inject it? Oh, in my stomach. Was it painful? Yes, it was. Well, to the grand jury, she said, oh, no, I didn't use it. They gave it to me, but I flushed it down the toilet. Whoa. So she absolutely lied, committed perjury on hbo i mean even worse

i've got the video and and the the grand jury transcript but here's here's how they play okay then they came back to her and they said okay well you've done all these things you've testified against all these people you've said everything that we want you to say and she said great now reinstate me and let me get back on the track. And I said, oh, well, by the way, we forgot to tell you, Kelly, you got to go to the IAAF and every single penny,

you know, that $350,000 that you made, pay it all back to them, and maybe they'll let you back. You have to pay back everything you ever earned as a track and field athlete. Well, they didn't tell her that up front. This is the kind of stuff that they do to anyone and everyone that does cooperate with them. At the end of the day, let's look at this now.

Let's take it a step forward with Floyd Landis. Remember when there was going to be the whistleblower that they had $30 million, and he was going to get a certain percentage of that, 10% or $3 million, and he filed a federal claim, and he was cooperating with them, and then at the end of the day, now they're charging him. They're charging him with what? Fraud. He raised $2 million by selling a book telling people he was clean when he knew he was dirty.

Wow. So all I'm saying is they delete stuff in reports. They say things that people, me personally, they said that I said things the day of the raid that I never said. And the things that I did say, they deleted it from the report. Now, understand, I filed a declaration under penalty of perjury with the federal court saying that these guys lied. And every single thing they said in this memorandum of interview and all this is missing from this memorandum of activity well you don't see them coming after me for perjury this is very complicated it's getting a little convoluted here well unfortunately i i see what you're saying and i see that you're saying that they're uh

corrupt and that i'm saying that it's a mess because both sides are cheating to win. Both sides are cheating to win. I see what you're saying. Prosecutors are cheating. And that's often the case that people complain about all sorts of situations where people get busted for something that the cops want to pin them with the crime so they will sometimes manufacture evidence. They will sometimes manipulate the law.

They will sometimes do what it takes to get the bad guy but the bad guy here it gets a little bit you know it's like who's the bad guy is the bad guy the guy who took steroids so he could hit the ball better or is the bad guy the guy that spent hundreds of millions of dollars taxpayers money that could have been spent on schools that could have been spent on you, that could have been spent on, you know, health care, lunch, electricity, food for the elderly. All sorts of different things. All sorts of...

Hire more cops. Instead, they spend it going after a fucking baseball player. It's, uh... We have a wacky set of priorities. Is all that over? That witch hunt shit? Is that over? Or are they still doing that with guys?

Uh, it's still going on. Didn't Michael... No, uh, didn't, Didn't Roger Clemens just get off the whole thing, and now he's going to start playing baseball again at 50? Yeah, that brings up something. I don't know that I can. Yeah, I don't think he will. But he has. There is talk about it.

I know he pitched him in like a minor league there in Texas? Yeah. Yeah. My understanding is that in a couple weeks, I'm being told it's 99% sure that it's going to happen. There's supposed to be an event at UCLA, an open town hall type setting there,

supposed to be on Showtime, with a panel of experts, myself included, and five or six other guys that and the question is, baseball steroid era,

Barry Bonds, the greatest hitter of his generation, Roger Clemens, the greatest pitcher of his generation, do they belong in baseball's Hall of Fame? It's going to be an interesting debate. It is an interesting debate. Carl Lewis, Ben Johnson tested positive and lost his gold medal because he tested positive. But didn't Carl Lewis test positive at Olympics as well? Earlier, he did, yes. So at the trials, this all came out in 1988.

Let me put that in context of the statistics. They had 100 positive tests. The United States Olympic Committee, And this is back in 1988. 50 of those were covered up. Of those 50 athletes, they won 19 Olympic medals. The ones that were covered up. And Carl is one of those. Oh, my God.

Now, how do they do that? How do they decide who is covered up and who doesn't? Is it by ivory? No. What happened was that they were doing a test, and this committee and all the minutes came out. This was published in 2009 in the Orange County Register. And they basically said, well, listen, our whole team, a lot of it will not be going to the Olympics if we come out with this. So let's just say that this particular testing was experimental,

and let's take the B sample and pour it down the drain. Whoa. Because it was just too costly for the team as far as records are concerned? As far as what would rather, you know, the possible success? The team going to Seoul to represent the United States, that is the group where they had 100 positives, 50 were covered up, and selectively he was one of those 50. There was always a deal with that Olympics, that there was corruption in that Olympics,

because of Roy Jones' loss in the finals against the Korean fighter, which was one of the worst shitty decisions in boxing history, where Roy Jones lit this kid up like a christmas tree and at the end of it they gave the decision to the korean and everybody just went what i mean it was one of the most in korea it was one of the most ridiculous shows of corruption ever so let me suggest that when you can watch this recent 9.79 asterisk show because they interview all the eight guys that were in the race. But the most interesting part is a friend of Carl Lewis's, and they even interviewed his manager, Joe Douglas,

got into the actual drug testing room where Ben Johnson was. And Charlie had told me this as well. Listen, this was a setup here. And he was drinking beer so he could urinate, and they actually showed pictures on this show of this guy sitting next to Ben Johnson and the beer, and he wouldn't go on camera, but at the end, and Charlie always said that it was sabotaged,

that somebody spiked his beer with a stenozolol, a Winstrol tablet. And when they asked the guy to go on the record, he said no, but he made a statement, and they said, well, did you sabotage Ben Johnson and put a Winstroll tablet in his beer? And he said, maybe I did, and maybe I didn't. Wait a minute. So Ben Johnson wasn't on steroids when he competed in the Olympics? Well, he was clearly on steroids because steroids when he competed in the olympics he was clearly

on steroids because it all came out in the dublin inquiry later when when they brought in all the athletes and his teammates but he had gotten to a point where he was in undetectable levels for testing they just tapered off in time because there was no out of competition testing so they'd done this many many times and they just would go off three weeks out knowing that it would take that long to clear. They'd done it many world championships and other meets before, and that particular competition, he came up positive. And didn't he come up really positive too? Like it would have been a huge mistake?

Yes. Yeah, it was a little obvious. Wow, that's amazing. So he was sabotaged. So it's like everybody knew, don't cue the beat the whatever music everybody knew that it was uh that it was this is this what they're saying in this story how first of all how did that guy get in there yeah that's the question and he's carl lewis's friend and joe douglas said we managed to do what it took to get the credentials to get the guy in

there so there's always going to be cheap people there. There's always going to be people who cheat. There's always going to be weirdness. What did you think about Margarito with the loaded gloves? Well, that was really bad. That was one of the saddest things ever. Do you remember the Billy Resto days? Panama Lewis and Billy Resto. They took the hide out of a kid's gloves.

Billy Costello. Not Billy Costello. I took the hide out of a kid's gloves. Billy Costello. Not Billy Costello. I forget the kid's name. But he went blind. Went blind. Lost part of his vision. Couldn't box again. That's full intention.

Yeah. There's always been cheating, man. There's always been cheating. People just winning is so fucking awesome. How do you keep guys from cheating now? If you're working with all these athletes and you have this past i mean obviously the threat of going back to jail i'm sure isn't enticing to you but how do you keep athletes on the straight and narrow the only way that's going to happen

is if the people that make the majority of the money from sport whether that be baseball football ufc olympics whoever it is, when they develop a genuine interest, then they can implement a reasonably effective testing program. Well, UFC relies on state athletic commissions. You know, it could be said that it's overstepping their boundaries if they incorporate their own testing. It's almost like saying, you don't know what you're doing, Nevada State Athletic Commission. We're going to do our own shit.

Is that a legitimate argument or no? I mean, it seems like if you want the sanction of an athletic commission, the idea is that they get paid to do that. They get paid to test people. So if you come in and you say, look, we're going to do your job because you suck at it, that could ruffle feathers, no? Of course. But it should be done anyway? Is that what you're saying? You need a certain standardization.

But the athletic commissions are not providing that. Absolutely not. The level of testing they provide is an absolute joke. So they provide a level of testing that is through urine only, correct? That's correct. And it needs to be through blood. It needs to be through both. Both blood and urine.

But, like, EPO is urine. They don't do EPO. Okay. But they should. The carbon isotope ratio for synthetic testosterone, that's a urine test. I wrote a, I rather read a defense. Someone was saying, well, boxers, EPO is not really a drug that concerns us because boxers don't use it.

No, I was like, let me say this. If I had to pick a single drug that would be the most powerful performance enhancer it's epo yeah how could they possibly say that i read that i was like that is the most you know who said that robert voy and david watson this was at a a uh hearing with keith kaiser the nevada state athletic They got up, and then there was a headline that said, you know, urine testing not KOs blood testing. They were saying, you don't need to.

Why do you need to do this test? Why do you need to test for EPO? Nobody's using EPO. But that's an endurance. I mean, how could anybody say that? It's an endurance enhancer, a massive endurance enhancer. In a word, I don't care who you are. It's an endurance enhancer, a massive endurance enhancer.

In a word, I don't care who you are, Dwayne Chambers described it best one time when he said, it turns you into a machine. How many MMA fighters do you think are on APO? Well, if in total of all performance-enhancing drugs, it's in the neighborhood of 50%, maybe 20%. So 20% could possibly be on EPO. So when you see people with ridiculous cardio and they can go five rounds at a 100% clip,

you get suspicious. It's very easy to get this stuff and use this stuff. And there's no test for it. Well, there is a test for it. But I'm saying in the Nevada State Committee Commission's protocol. Nevada doesn't do it. California doesn't do it. New York doesn't do it. State commissions do not do it.

They only test for what? They test for testosterone versus epitestosterone ratios. They test for things that are minimal testing, right? And the panel of anabolic steroids. So you get that panel of about 30 to 35 steroids, plus the TE ratio is included. panel of about 30 to 35 steroids plus the te ratio is included long story short i used to buy those tests from quest diagnostic the exact company that does the nevada state athletic commission testing for 80 so what would a blood test a blood and urine the correct type of testing cost how much of a difference are we talking about epo is a 400 test growth $400 test. Okay, so those are two different tests.

So let's round it off. Let's call it $1,000. So you're dealing with 11 fighters, 22 fights, $22,000. So a $22,000 savings. How much are they getting paid for those events, though? Seems like they're probably getting a lot of money for those events. They can't scarf out $22,000 for proper testing. Do you think they have pressure?

Do you think that it's like the casino is going to listen? There's no need to get crazy. You're testing a little. You're doing a good job. It's all about the potential for financial loss. And is it all about the image? Like it looks like they're testing. But meanwhile, they're just making it so that they know.

They tell you how to cheat. So they say, listen, come in here and you're good. Yes. So you're like, okay. Yes. Wow. What can be done? What can we do?

Implement reasonably effective testing. You don't have to go crazy. What do they do if they find out when they implement reasonably effective testing? Everybody's on. And then when everybody gets off, the performance sucks, and it becomes like women trying to chase those Olympics medals that the Russians made when they were hopped up on dick saws. Okay, I think that answer has been provided by baseball.

Look at the home run totals. Right, but they only get tested twice. You said it yourself. They only get tested twice, and the very small amount, and when I say reasonable, that's not reasonable. The point is they had no testing. They started in 2004. Right. So back in the day, there was no testing, which meant that's like back in the Flojo days.

You do whatever you want, as much as you want, at any time, and nobody's paying attention. Flojo died, yes she's did she die as a result of performance enhancing drugs my opinion i think there's a connection what did she die of listen i've said this before and and uh i was i've been told that there were three positive drug tests that were covered up at the olympic, and you have to look at the highly suspicious nature of what happened with Flo Jo. She was 27 years old. At the height of her economic earning potential,

she came home from the Olympic Games and retired. Does that make sense? No. Okay. No, it doesn't. So what do you think was wrong? Well, I've been told that there were three positive drug tests and that she was one of them. Now, you call it a rumor, call it what you want.

But I believe that, you know, I was told three specific names of all gold medalists. So they essentially told her it's time to wrap it up because we know you were cheating. Well, she was an interesting case, too, because she was a, I wouldn't say a mediocre runner, but she was nowhere near the level that she was at her prime just a couple years previous to that in the 84 olympics her 100 meter best was 1096 and 200 meter was 2196 four years later in 88 she ran 2134 so 96 to 34 is 5-6 meters faster and from 1096 to 1049 which is 4-5 meters faster Jesus Christ that's fast

imagine if you're running and she's 5 meters ahead of you. Many people said that they sold her all kinds of drugs a 400 meter runner from I believe he was from Seattle, Daryl Robinson you know came forward on the Today Show and said,

listen, I sold her all kinds of drugs. That was a sad story. 27 years old. How old was she when she died? 38 or 9. That's a sad story. Now, Lance Armstrong, they're going to get this guy? It seems like now that Nike just...

Did you hear about what happened today? Yeah, Nike dropped him today. And he stepped down from his position with Livestrong. Yeah, so it seems like the walls are closing in on him now. That's two things to happen in one day like that. It seems like it's almost over. But they have like 500 negative tests from this guy. Some say that's an inflated number.

It was closer. He claims 500 to 600. Let's say it's 20.ated number it was closer he claims five to six hundred let's say it's 20 so what does that tell you say it say it's 250 let's let's cut his number and how he just did it right what does that tell you about the effectiveness of the testing says it's shit especially with uh blood doping right because they can't really tell that you did that how do they tell that you you took your blood and froze it and then stuck it back in your body how do they there's some they can look at a percentage of of young middle-aged and older red blood cells and if that percentage is outside then have they ever brought a case and made it stick it's very tough because that's a subjective uh test but here here's you know just this is a

rumor okay that that i heard but it makes a lot of sense. This is what I believe they do, is during each and every stage, they wait until they know the testing window is over, and then they re-infuse their red blood cells. They come back at the end of the stage. They extract those red blood cells, so if they get tested in the morning, they're going to be within the normal range. They also take testosterone either by cream, gel, or patch, which, as I talked about with baseball players, it goes up and goes down. So by that time in the morning when you would be tested, you would be within the normal TE ratio.

The joke that was going around was that with Floyd Landis, that he had a horrible stage 16, came in that night and got drunk and forgot to take the patch off. Tested positive, 11 to 1 is TE ratio in the morning. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. Oh, my God. That makes sense. What I'm saying is they're now using this term right under the tester's noses meaning they're doing this on a daily basis and did lamson strong lance armstrong get away with it for so long because he was the poster boy because

he was the the golden child well they supposedly now are accusing the cycling union um of helping cover up a positive drug test where he gave $100,000 to them, and the next thing you know they had a $60,000 to $70,000 piece of equipment that they were using in the laboratory. So do I think it's possible? I do. Will that ever get to a court of law with a beyond a reasonable doubt standard? I don't know.

But were there a lot of people in on it? Of course. That's my opinion. This just didn't happen. Many people knew about this that were involved in the business. It was good for business. And a lot of people were making a lot of money. And I think a lot of people were looking the other way. This is such a fascinating subject. I'm so obsessed with the idea of this constant desire to, especially in track and field, to just shave tenths of a second and seconds off of your time. Let's talk about that for just a second because I wrote an article about this in the New York Daily News back starting in, it was right before the Beijing Olympics in 2008.

And this is when it first came to my attention. And my opinion is that Memo, the same guy that was in the Balco case, and that Nowitzki got no consequence and he's still out there. But I watched the women's 100-meter final at the Jamaican trials. And Veronica Campbell was an Olympic gold medalist and a world champion and, I mean, really just one of the best sprinters expected to win both events at the trials. She ran a very fast 10.88 and came in fourth. Didn't even make the team in the 100 meters. Said, who are these people, these other girls?

Where are they coming from? Well, let's go back and look at Shelly Ann Frazier, who won the gold medal in London's won the gold medal in london and won the gold medal in beijing and if you go back and look at the times that she ran in 2007 a year before the beijing olympics she ran 11 35 she showed up at beijing around 10 78 that's five meters faster now here's my experience with Kelly White. I helped her. She obviously used drugs, and she became a double world champion.

Her lifetime PR was 1119. I gave her a very sophisticated drug regimen. She ran 1085. So she went from 1119 to 1085. This Jamaican girl went from 1135 to 1078 how do you improve five meters in one year so what happened at the olympics they won gold silver bronze in the 100 meter this very small country wins all three medals in the 100 meters but let's fast forward what just happened in london is from the exact same coach glenn mills there on this very small island, in the 200-meter, they won gold, silver, and bronze.

All three places. Not just from the same. There's two track clubs, MVP and Racers Track Club, which is Usain Bolt's team. They won the gold, silver, and bronze. In the 100 meters, they won gold and silver. So they won five out of the six gold medals in the sports. What are they doing? The same coach.

What are they doing? Probably a lot of stuff, in my opinion. They're just doing it and tapering off before the Olympics and still keeping the effects. Because they don't go there during the off-season that I described, that October through January period. I believe it's just open season, green light, use and do whatever you want. What's going to happen if they ever do that? How much are times going to drop? Significantly.

Significantly. I mean, real significantly. You think track and field is just completely infested? Absolutely. And then here's what comes next. Then the coach says, not only are my guys so good, if I could have had five guys on the team, we would have won the first five places. And sure enough, in the remainder of the season, they had about five more meets after the Olympics in London, two more guys from all training partners ran times faster than everybody else in the world.

All training partners ran times faster than everybody else in the world. So the top five times in the 200 meters in the world are all from the same coach. You're going to get a Jamaican hitman knocking on your door. Victor Conte, want to talk to you, man. You've got a problem with Jamaicans running fast. Well, it's the mountain yams. Yeah, mountain yams are the shit. And yaks, too.

Right, Brian? Yak me. It's the mountain yams. Yeah, mountain yams are the shit. And yaks, too. Right, Brian? Yak me. Yak me. It's supposed to be good. Victor, this is a shit storm you've stirred up for sure. And I believe you. I believe you're telling the truth. And it's a fascinating subject to me.

It seems like it's a big charade, especially it seems like with track and field. I mean, that just seems really kind of like a crazy game. It's just everybody's doing it, so you have to do it in order to be the best. The times with the women athletes, that's the most telling. That's crazy that they can't even come close to those because those women were just balling. They were just taking crazy roids. They can't do that anymore. They have to be careful now.

Wow, fascinating, fascinating shit. Well, listen, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. People want to get a hold of you on Twitter. You can find Victor on Twitter under Victor Conti. C-O-N-T-E. I'm saying it right. Conti? Conti, yes. Conti. Victor Conti on Twitter.

And is there a website they can go to to read anything? It's snack.com. S-N-A-C.com. What does that stand for? Scientific Nutrition for Advanced Conditioning. Okay, and that's your... Why conditioning with a K? No, it's S-N-A-C dot com. What does that stand for? Scientific Nutrition for Advanced Conditioning. Okay, and that's your... Why conditioning with a K? No, it's S-N-A-C. Oh, I thought you said snack like S-N-A-K.

No, it's S-N-A-C with no K. I heard it myself. I wanted it to be stupid. I wanted it to be like comedy with a K. Like, it's comedy night. Comedy corner. K-K. Comedy corner.

They do that in my world. My world's more silly than your world. My world, if they tested positive for marijuana, we would lose half the great comics of the world. More than half. More than them. Crazy. Yeah, we have performance-enhancing drugs, too. They're just more subtle.

You're a very fun and smart guy, and I really enjoyed being here with you. Thank you, sir. Thank you for coming on. It was a good conversation. It was very enlightening. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for being so forthcoming. And I think a lot of people got a lot of information out there,

enlightened a lot of people as to how things really work behind the scenes, especially in track and field, an area that I had never had any knowledge about whatsoever. And the whole Balco story, it's a fascinating story. And I'm glad you're on the straight and narrow, sir. And you're partying with Tommy John,

Tommy Chong, rather in the joint, in the joint playing pool. Who'd have thunk fucking ice hockey and shit in the joint. In the joint, playing pool. Who'd have thunk? Fucking ice hockey and shit in the joint. Getting massages. Getting blown by your fucking CO. How crazy is that? Hot chicks as hookers.

Eat sushi every night. You can't say. Can you say what prison it was? The Taft Prison. Go for that. Yes, it's 20 miles east of Bakersfield. And by the way, law enforcement officers, please don't arrest these ladies. What's wrong with a little extra money on the side?

Stop hating. Everybody needs to fucking relax in this country. We've got a bunch of grown adults telling other grown adults what they can and can't do. Some of them, they stick them in jails. And then the other grown adults blow them for money. I don't have a problem with that. Victor, you got a problem with that? No.

No. No, ladies and gentlemen. There will be no podcast tomorrow, folks, and there will be none next week either, because next week I've got to go out of town. But we'll be back. We'll be back strong. We've got a lot of people coming up next month. One of them is Dr. Peter Duesberg, who is the biologist from the University of California, Berkeley, and he doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS.

And this is going to get really weird. We should bring AIDS blood into the place. Just drink it. All right, drink it then. Put it on your butthole. Drink the AIDS blood. I don't know. We have to – I know this is a very – this is another case where I'm too stupid to really have this conversation with this guy.

So I'm going to have him on, and then I am sure there will be people that want to provide a rebuttal. I will find someone who's actually scientifically able to break down what was wrong with what Mr. Duesberg said, and I will allow the two of them, if Mr. Duesberg

wants to come back, to do it together. It's a fascinating conversation. Bring Dr. Drew. I don't know if Dr. Drew can hang in there. You've got to have a biologist. You have to have someone who understands retroviruses. I just made a bunch of noises with my mouth and I don't even know what they mean. That's the problem.

I don't know what the fuck a retrovirus is. It's like older. It's like you buy it at a used store. Listen, folks, this fucking podcast is over. I want to thank you very much for being bad motherfuckers, ladies and gentlemen. If you want to come see us, Minneapolis is sold out, but

San Francisco people, we will be at the Knob Hill Masonic Center 1102. That is November 2nd and November 3rd. What are you doing that weekend? Whatever you want me to. Want to come up there? Fuck yeah. Alright, so it'll be Brian Redband, Greg Fitzsimmons, who's a fucking bona fide national headliner, ladies and gentlemen.

He will also be on the show, and me. That's at the Knob Hill Masonic Center in San Francisco. All the information is available. I think Live Nation is doing that. Yeah. All of it is online, and yeah. And also Seattle. We're at the Moore theater the next night same lineup

um and that is uh the more theater in seattle november we gotta stop by uh that podcast studio up there yeah moderate yeah we'll give voodoo chicken to do a guest set yeah voodoo chicken was good last time we were there is he still doing it i don't know he'll fucking dust off the act come get right back in there you fucking silly bitch um so uh thanks to everybody for listening to the program thanks to armit for sponsoring the show go to onnit and use the code name rogan and you will save yourself 10 off any and all supplements we also besides just the supplements we carry kettlebells battle ropes and now blenders. When you buy a new blender, the Blendtec blender, which is excellent for making vegetable smoothies,

and also bulletproof coffee, which, by the way, I'm drinking today, ladies and gentlemen. Are you really? Yeah. Mixed butter and everything. It's fucking delicious. Those Blendtec blenders are available on it. We sell them far cheaper than anybody else does if they're smart. Because the manufactured retail, I mean, I don't know what everybody is selling it for,

but I can tell you what the manufactured retail is. And it is $650. And we sell it for like $450. I'll tell you right now in one moment. I'm trying to pull up the numbers. What amazing value. I can't find the number. We're doing an ice ice tonight?

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Try them. You don't like it. It's all based on science. The science is all at Onnit.com. It's all stuff that there's no way we'd be selling if we didn't 100% believe in it. The Shroom Tech Sport, I take like a motherfucker, take it before every workout.

It's all cordyceps mushrooms and B12. It's all stuff that's been shown to enhance endurance. And the science and all the information, again, is available at Onnit.com. All right, you fucking freaks. We're taking a whole week off. I hope you're going to be okay, but we're going to do an Ice House Chronicles tonight. So you can check that out. But you can only check that out at Death Squad on iTunes.

All right? So go there, subscribe, and maybe Kevin Pereira will do another podcast soon. We have one Monday at noon. Oh, snap, son! Kevin Pereira, one of the funniest fucking guys on the planet, one of the coolest as well, who's also the former host of the Attack of the Show on G4. Now he's doing a podcast on the Death Squad Network. So go subscribe, you fucking freaks.

And I will be back next week. I'm going hunting with Brian Cowan. We're going to go on a fucking raft in Montana. And shit's going to get real. I'm going to come back with some stories. I need to do some things to make some stories. I can't keep talking about mushrooms. All right?

I got to go. Bye. See you soon. Love the fucking shit out of you people. Thanks for watching!