The Joe Rogan Experience - #280 - Philip Coppens

Episode Date: November 5, 2012

Joe sits down with Philip Coppens.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Powerful Philip Coppins. How are you, sir? I'm doing good. That's a long, dragged out ending. Thanks for coming, man. And you're here about your book. Your book is The Lost Civilization Enigma.

And I got into this subject through Graham Hancock, who I'm sure you're familiar with his work, The Fingerprints of the Gods. Before that, I had no idea that there were so many mysteries in terms of how ancient structures were constructed, who the people were that actually designed them and built them and it's it's an amazing part of the history of the human race that is really doesn't get enough attention in my opinion and I don't understand why well I think we've somehow kind of like you know we have this 4000 BC wall in there yeah and anything before that people just don't seem to be interested in and it doesn't get into textbooks it doesn't get into official kind of anything. And anything before that is just treated as if it's sporadic. We've been around for 35,000 years.

And we're allowed to believe that for 30,000 years of that existence, we did nothing. We sat on our bum. Is it because of the fact that the information wasn't available when the people who are professors right now were teaching, and they've been teaching for 20 and 30 years, some of them, and they don't want to rewrite what they have already taught. There's an ego thing to it. They've taught you that this was built in 2000 BC, and that's where it ends. Absolutely. I mean, there's one example in the book, and the opening chapter is called The New Inquisition, and it's about several cases, but one of them is from the 1920s. And basically, in the 1920s, a discovery was made in France, Glozell.

And if this was true, early indications were that writing was thousands of years older than everybody had been writing about. All of these professors were going to be proven wrong. And they just couldn't let that happen. So what they did was, he had a 16-year-old farmer boy who just found a hole in his field who said like, hey, look what I have found. And they threw him in jail.

And they pretended that he was thrown in jail for fraud. And ever after, science could say like, well, he was arrested on fraud, wasn't he? We don't have to look at this guy because he was arrested on fraud. And he he? We don't have to look at this guy because he was arrested on fraud. And he was completely vindicated. There was no evidence whatsoever that he had made fraudulent claims about the artifacts which he'd found. But ever since the 1920s, according to the Isles Free Walls of academics,

this is a complete thing which they don't have to look into anymore because they have labeled it a fraud. Wow. So you think there was a conspiracy to label it a fraud and him a fraud just so that they didn't have to address it? Yes. How is that possible? Isn't it weird that academics are supposed to be the leading lights of thought? They're supposed to be the people that are at the forefront of knowledge. But for the most part, they are.

For the most part, they are the most part they are but there are exceptions and there are issues the the egyptologists that you know that guy who was uh arguing with uh robert shock and graham hancock in that or in john anthony west in that famous video where they're dealing with this obvious water erosion on these stones and all these geologists are saying like you've got a problem here because this was cut at like 9 000 plus bc there's no other way around it if you look at climate change you look at that it had to be thousands of years of rainfall to create these erosions and the way he reacted was so egotistical and non-scientific. It was really infuriating. He was laughing like, what evidence of this civilization from 10,000 years ago do you have? And it was so infuriating

to see a guy who's supposed to be the man out there at the forefront of knowledge when it comes to this particular subject. He's a guy who's a professor at a university, a highly respected one, and here he is. He's carrying the flag for knowledge a highly respected one and here he is he's carrying the flag for knowledge in this particular subject and he is if he could see how gross it looked to watch that reaction like why don't you tell me what the fuck you think would be around from 10 500 years ago dude because i don't think it's going to be much i really don't think, we barely can find shit from 2,000 years ago. We barely find shit from 2,000 BC. Barely, we find like a little pottery.

Oh, we found some place where everybody got killed by mud. Quick, get over here. Let's clean this shit with a paintbrush. But you want to go more time back from that than it is from us to the construction of the pyramids, than it is from the established 2,500 BC, which is insanity. That's an insane amount of time. You're talking about like 8,000 years before that.

You're supposed to know or have any evidence whatsoever other than giant stones? What the fuck do you think would be left, right? Yeah, I mean, the great Dr. Zayi Hawass, and just to kind of come back on the conspiracy angle there, he in the 1980s had actually found evidence that the pyramid, the Great Pyramid of Giza, carbon dating results were in,

uncontested, 800 years older. Now, that might not see much. 2,400 would make it 3,200 BC, but it's 800 years. It's basically... It's a fucking long time, man. And they don't want to do it. So what do they do?

For the last 30 years, they haven't published these findings because for them to play the game, it has to be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. And so by not publishing this, they can pretend these carbon dating results don't exist and they can pretend that everything is fine, that the Great Pyramid is built in 2400 BC. They set the rules, they play the game, and then they shout at everybody else,

as you're pointing out when Robert Shok and everybody else comes to the Sphinx and say, you're idiots. It's clear that there's ego involved, which is very, very disturbing when it comes to knowledge, when it comes to something that is obviously a work in progress. The uncovering of ancient civilizations is clearly a work in progress. So to be arrogant about what the results are just based on the fact that you've taught these to students for so many years and you don't want to admit that you were wrong

when you're talking about the time, the construction, the Sphinx, whatever it is that starts getting controversial. There's a weird thing where you see their ego flare up, and it's so gross, and it's so transparent. It's really weird to watch them argue like little girls. The way they talk about it, it's so egomaniacal. It's like, what are you talking about? You know exactly what the fuck happened? No, you don't.

No, you don't. And you need to take this into consideration. You've got a real issue. Because if this guy's right, then you're way off. If this guy's right and the Sphinx enclosure was cut 9000 plus BC, then you've got a real problem on your hands. Because you've established this whole timeline

that doesn't work anymore. So then we have to figure, what the fuck happened that we had this incredible sophistication at 10,000 BC, and then there's obviously been some declines here and there. There's a really obvious system. If you really pay attention, like Gobekli Tepe or all of these really 14,000 plus BC things, it's like, this isn't like a linear graph. It doesn't like go straight up. There's like probably some fairly sophisticated cultures wiped out.

Fairly sophisticated wiped out. And other places, just like today, you can go to Africa today, and there's a lot of people that if you didn't, if Western civilization didn't go in there and give them things, they wouldn't have radios. They wouldn't be wearing underwear. They would be living exactly the same way they lived thousands and thousands of years ago. At the same time, on other parts of the world, people are dropping bombs on people.

People are doing nuclear tests. People are, you know, they're doing the Large Hadron Collider. That's all taking place at the exact same time. I suspect that's always been like that. I suspect that there's been some super-duper sophisticated cultures where, for whatever reason, these people were ever able to figure out how to use agriculture earlier, figure out how to use societies, figure out how to be calm enough to start breaking things down and thinking it through

and trying to figure out how to improve things and then it's this exponential process in these groups and some of them get better out of the others and it seems to be like it's like who wasn't attacked by hordes of barbarians you know those dudes seem to figure out how to you know get it like all you need is like a couple of decades to get ahead if you look at like what we've accomplished in 100 years, it's really a staggering thing. That's the most staggering thing about whether it's Baalbek, the stones in Lebanon or Egypt or anything.

The most staggering thing is how far we've come in 100 years. And to think that this shit was all going on thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago. Those numbers are just bullshit to us. You telling someone 7 000 years ago it's like i hear noise coming out of your mouth i really don't i can't see it i don't know what it means but i think it's the problem because the way is history is thought and it is like you know for 30 000 years we sat on our butt then we stood up and we scrambled around for some food. And then all of a sudden in 4,000 BC somebody finds a light switch

and all of a sudden it's civilization. That's the standard view and it doesn't work like that. And then when you confront them with things like Obekli Tepe or Qatliuwek or anything like that, they'll say, well, you know, they were very close. They're like a few thousand people in a city somewhere who were doing this, but it was all isolated. And it just doesn't work. Great empires exist.

Great empires fall. Our ancestors were saying about this as well. They're basically saying about Atlantis. This civilization existed, then it disappeared. And we kind of go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because we were sitting in the butt-sitting phase of civilization 10,000 years ago. Nobody was building anything. Nobody was doing anything.

And it is just ugh. Yeah. Because you can't argue with them. They know for sure about how this was. We were sitting on our butts for thousands of years. Then we scrambled around a bit. And then all of a sudden in 4,000 BC, we finally see the light and here we are. around a bit and then all of a sudden in 4000 BC we finally see the light and here we are and it is very much like an evolution of mankind taken to the absolute extreme it's a it's a weird

sort of cognitive denial it's very strange it's very strange that it's like it's it's it's like it's like laboring labor uh labeling something a conspiracy theory like oh are you a conspiracy theory. Like, oh, are you a conspiracy theorist? Like, automatically. Or even have the new one as truther. That's hilarious. The 911 people, like 911 truth, they became truthers. Like, somehow or another, it's an insult to be a truther.

That shit's ridiculous. Well, I mean, I was doing something for my blog, which is going to be on somewhere in the next few days, and it's about the Kennedy assassination and the single bullet theory. And the single bullet theory was invented by Arlen Specter, who was a very junior lawyer at that time, and he basically saw the Zapruder film,

which basically is a guy shooting a film of Kennedy, and they thought that a man like Harkano, which Harswell was using, you could fire it at intervals of 2.3 seconds. And they see on this film how Kennedy reacts to a gunshot and Connolly reacts to a gunshot

as well and the interval is less than 2.3. So all of a sudden they have this issue of like, oh there are two riflemen there or we need to try and explain it away. So so comes inspector junior lawyer who basically gets to solve this problem and he comes up with a single bullet theory which basically says a shot goes into the back of kennedy somehow travels up goes down jumps up

again to go into comely's back kind of like keeps traveling up a bit goes down again into his wrist and then up again and he calls he calls it the magic bullet theory. And when he goes public with this, he basically says, I don't expect anybody to leave this shit. This is going to be contested in a year, five years, 100 years from now. Nobody should believe this. And guess what? Academic history has taken this on wholesale.

Wholesale, yeah. And everybody who says, but magic bullet is theory is just crap they're labeled conspiracy nuts it's yeah it's not just crap it's like you're you're almost it's it's almost unexcusable to believe it it was invented because the guy in the underpass who got hit with a ricochet they had to attribute that was another reason for it they had to attribute a bullet to this one guy uh hitting a curb and it ricocheted him and he had to go to the hospital. So they knew that one of the bullets missed and one of the bullets hit this curb. And the bullet they found was in the gurney of Governor Connolly when they brought him to the hospital.

So the idea is that this fucking bullet came out of this dude's body in perfect form. It was just laying around there. No one ever noticed it. He got shot, and it was in his pocket or something. It went through his body and landed in his pocket and then fell out conveniently right where they were looking around to see if there's any evidence. Oh, look. We found the bullet that did all the damage. It looks to me, when I watch a Zapruder film,

I've never heard anybody say this, but there's a scene, there's part of it where it does look like, I mean, his head definitely goes back and to the left, but the spray looks like it's going forward. I wonder if he was hit more than once by, you know, different snipers at the same time. I mean, I wonder how many actual shots went into his body once by different snipers at the same time.

I mean, I wonder how many actual shots went into his body. Because they know that there was the one that went through the front that they tried to disguise as a tracheotomy. They know there was definitely an entry wound in the neck, and that's when he grabs his neck. Just that alone, the fact that that was deceptively labeled as a tracheotomy hole, why would you do that? The only reason is because you don't want to show an entry wound in the front of his neck. An entry wound looks so much different than an exit wound.

Everybody knows that. So they had to come up with something, a fucking round hole in the middle of this guy's neck. So they decided to make it a trach scar, which is just deception. Just that alone. But, you know, we are led to believe that it's all official history. It kind of like is rubber stamped. And so much is rubber stamped, which is absolute BS on so many things.

And, you know, that is 50 years ago. Yeah. And when we're coming back to trying to find out what really happened 8,000 years ago, you know, when we can't even do it 50 years ago the rubber stamp those motherfuckers it's those rubber stamp people man it really is that that really is what it is in the uh notion that certain things make you a ridiculous person if you discuss them whether it's a sasquatch or whether it's ufos or whether whether it's anything the idea that human beings even exist and exist in this form with

cell phones and fucking space travel and airplanes. And that is so crazy. Just the reality of people is so crazy. I don't know why anybody would argue any ridiculous proposition about aliens or the possibility of life that we haven't discovered on other planets. Just think about how fucking weird we are. The fact that we even exist is so mind-blowing and exist in this form.

For sure, there could be UFOs around us all the time that we can't see because they know how to hide. There could be easily some way or you just are just completely invisible it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that they could deceive us that they could figure out a way to be a tree you know you know why i mean and who knows if like the the idea of like cloaking devices like all the shit that we're coming up with, like where we project an image of,

who knows what the fuck is up there that we can't see. Maybe they're Asians. Brian, you need to just jump in front of a train today. Well, one of the questions I get asked, Brian, is whether cats are aliens, whether they're aliens in disguise. Aliens, cats, no. What if Chinese people are more alien than human, the cats are aliens whether they're aliens in disguise aliens cats no what if up what if chinese people are more alien than human and when the nibiru people came when the anunnaki came they

just added a little more alien yeah a little more chimp to like my people the italians so like give them a little more chimp i believe that more than a tree you'd believe that more than them being a tree yeah well what about if they were the wind? Well, I mean, Paul Davis is a guy who's an astrobiologist from University of Phoenix, and he's basically writing a paper on non-material technology, which he basically kind of goes like, I'm going to talk about this, but I have no idea what I'm talking about because it's so out there. But he's basically saying that alien beings, if they were to come here or if they came here their technology might actually not be physically real that it might be something kind of like you know

some kind of energy cloud in front of them which they can direct with thought and can do stuff with that um and you kind of think like well we're almost there because a few days ago there was some headline whereby i think in japan asians again um where they somehow have been able to map if somebody's thinking about i think it was a tomato or something like that the computer could pick up the pattern that this guy was thinking about tomatoes so we are rapidly moving in directions of really being able to pick up what we're thinking and computer technology being able to identify what we're thinking. Yeah, and who knows whether they're going to be able to enable consciousness to exist inside of computers or consciousness to exist inside of a signal.

If they can get consciousness to exist inside of a computer, think about how much energy and how much information is distributed just through wireless internet, just flying around all around you constantly as fucking videos And ones and zeros and who knows if one day they'll be able to do that with consciousness just broadcast consciousness like a Wi-Fi signal so that you you essentially are Everywhere all the time if you choose to be so the aliens are here without even physically being here yeah well you said that aliens were wind and that wi-fi is in the air so the internet is aliens dude what if the hurricane's an alien what i just smelled an alien did you do something no

it's a child i apologize for mr copen she's a fucking serious author here dude and you're just messing this whole thing up uh it's it when you uh you know when you tell people that you're on that show agent aliens isn't that like automatically one of those things where they go oh okay you believe in aliens like oh you believe in ufos you know it's amazing in the in america there has been a complete change the answer is no longer no really people kind People kind of go like, wow, interesting. This is being explored. This is being discussed.

It's got phenomenal ratings, and it's got an attraction from 5 to 95. And all of a sudden, and I think this is largely due to the format of the show as well, really people are into this. People are beginning to question things. And really people are into this. People are beginning to question things. I get feedback from university professors and specifically high school teachers. And the high school teachers are saying, you know, we used to say something like very dogmatically, something like, let's say water is liquid.

They can still get away with that. But some of the other claims they're making, students are now challenging. They're saying, well, where did you get that from? And before there was this acceptance of, yeah the teacher says so so we have to accept whatever this knowledgeable person says and we will just write it down and all of a sudden high school teachers even university students are basically saying no we're not gonna do that we're gonna ask where this came from why do you come to that stance? And I think that's interesting,

and it's definitely something which is happening in America because the series is also in different countries. I kind of like don't follow it in all countries. Definitely in Europe, it's definitely still like, oh, you believe in aliens? Well, here's the thing that's happening in this country especially, and it's a thing that you can call intellectual wealth. And financial wealth might still be locked down by the elite, but intellectual wealth is no longer.

Intellectual wealth is, look, you don't really have to have any sort of formal education, and you could educate yourself just by reading the internet you literally any subject any you you could find forums where virtually any topic that you wish to engage in and want to figure things out about could be discussed you could go to you could download virtually every book that's ever been written about it and it's it's not like it used to be so it's not like it used to be. So it's not like when they go into a college, the professor is intellectually incredibly wealthy and the children are intellectually poor. No, the children have fucking smartphones and they could Google anything.

Like, no, that's not why. It was 1726 and they found it this way. And that professor looks like an idiot now because he's got some old outdated information. It's not easy to just run a bunch of kids tell them lies well you know what do you do with kids these fucking kids these days

and they're aliens but the idea of aliens has always been sexy it's always been daunting like the idea like wow what could you imagine if it is real what would it be like that's why there's what could you imagine if it is real what would it be like and that's why there's a thousand fucking movies about it i was gonna say hollywood down the street yeah just look you know like it's it's one of those things where i don't know what

would happen if it proved it was proven to be real but i don't i don't think it would be good if they could prove that there are aliens and aliens exist, I think people are too stupid. I think they would just start jumping off buildings. I don't think they'd be able to handle it. Yeah, there's various scenarios there, definitely. I mean, you know, the War of the Worlds thing from the 1930s with Orson Welles. Yeah. It's kind of like the classic thing of the panicky situation.

Then there are those who say that was exaggerated, that it was really isolated, that it were the headlines of the newspapers who invented this kind of thing. I don't know. Depends how sexy the alien is, I think. If it's an attractive alien, we might not panic and jump off. What if they arrive and they're all hot as fuck, like Natasha Hendricks in Species? Remember that? Maybe this is a conspiracy.

Maybe everything about UFO cover-up has happened because they were ugly and they were not photogenic. It's too insect-like. And the government is just waiting for beautiful aliens to come and then there will be disclosure. Meanwhile, there's going to be a new movie about that very same subject. Now that they've heard this, someone will write a movie about it. It would be awesome.

Hot Aliens in Space. Is the show copyrighted? No. Damn it, we forgot. We forgot to copyright that. Yeah, I think for whatever reason, I think people are barely able to handle this reality, for whatever reason,

whether it's they're not living the life they want to live, they're not around too many people that that think a lot they don't have much education they don't have a strong mind they have a lot of phobias they have you know addictions to substances whatever the fuck it is there's people that are a lot of people that are barely hanging on to this life as is it's an awful lot of framework people love to have a framework and you know going back to children, children need a framework. They need structure in their life. And adults, so many adults need to do that as well.

And once that framework is in place, and I think this is tying it back to the academic professors, it's really hard to break out of that. And it's like whether it is things like hallucinogenic substances, whether it is things like near-death experiences, life after death, all of these things, aliens, lost civilizations, they all somehow are pushing this cardboard thing of the framework saying, help, we need to get through because there's something outside of this framework. And basically people saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, framework, keep it intact. Yeah, the ancient aliens one

is one where I've had the conversation with people where I sort of described the Zechariah Sitchin thing. The Sitchin scenario, what could have happened. And they look at you like they're trying to find a way to get away. They look at you like, what the fuck kind of stupid conversation am I locked in with this idiot?

If you've never read any of zachariah sitchin stuff i'll just summarize it very quickly and sitchin believes that we were engineered by these alien beings and that it's all in the ancient sumerian text his translations of it are all that these people came down and did genetic experiments on human beings and created us to mine for gold which is really a trip it's really a mind fuck when you start thinking about how gold has always been valuable and you're like why you can't even make a sword out of it like why did people back then why was anybody willing to take like a bag of gold for your donkey like that doesn't make any sense like why why did it have so much value

the zacharias hitchens scenario is that they, these aliens, had ruined their environment and they needed gold dust to suspend their atmosphere to protect them from the radiation. Well what's really fucked up is scientists didn't figure that, like when they were started to discuss possible climate change, erosion the ozone layer, what would they do to protect the United States if we lost all of our ozone, our atmosphere? And the number one solution was to suspend reflective particles in the atmosphere. And so Sitchin had actually translated this in the 70s. This is like far before scientists had even proposed that.

So it's really kind of interesting. Like that's one little piece of that Sitchin thing that makes you go, whoa. How did he figure that out? I'm not smart enough to know about the environment and the climate change and how much they knew about the ozone layer

back in the 1970s. Well, he was a very controversial man. He was very kind of like adamant and set in his ways. He wasn't a warm character, but he definitely was an interesting character. Towards the end of his life, together with Inner Traditions, his publisher,

he began to kind of like push for the DNA analysis. He wanted to do some DNA testing, and unfortunately he died before any of that could have happened. But it would have been interesting to see where he was going to take it because he really was pushing his reputation and his legacy on the line there. And again, it didn't happen because he died. And the DNA evidence he was trying to find was that we were genetically manipulated and created. The idea is that's why we're so different from every other monkey that's here. I mean, it's so clear that we're different.

We're so much different than all the rest of them. And people are like, well, we are apes. We're just, we're from a different branch. How the fuck did this one branch just take off? This one branch has cars, and this one branch, everybody else is the same they're all just throwing their own shit even the chimps that are the baddest face yeah they're in this the

chimps are the baddest smartest motherfuckers the closest to us but look at them like oh they're using a tool they're sticking a stick to fucking get ants that's as close to a tool as they get like whoa you know call me when they figure out a bow and arrow, okay? The difference between them and us is so gigantic. I've never heard that adequately explained. Never. Never heard it. The fossil record is baffling to a lot of biologists when it comes to doubling the human brain size.

I've read all these different theories of why the human brain size doubled over a period of two million years, and they're all fucking like, it's all like, who knows, man? Who knows? If we really found out conclusively that there was some sort of genetic manipulation by some sort of

genetic manipulation by some sort of an outside force, that might be too much for people to handle. Yeah, I mean, you know, again, it's the framework. It's like if we somehow were to be able to change time. And I did an interview for a DVD, which is going to come out, I think, in a few months from now, and it's about the Marcel family,

the ones who were involved with Roswell. And two generations of them, specifically the grandson, Jesse Marcel III, grew ones who were involved with Roswell. And two generations of them, specifically the grandson, Jesse Marcel III, grew up with the absolute conviction that E.T. existed. The family is absolutely convinced that what grandfather found was extraterrestrial. The dad, at the age of 10, saw some of these artifacts, and they raised his son and the grandchild, I.E. III, in this absolute conviction that E.T. existed. And his mindset is completely different from the rest of us. It's like, you know, like at the age of five,

he's not questioning whether what he sees on television about Battlestar Galactica could be possibly real or anything of the science fiction thing. He just grew up with his complete acceptance that it is there, just like shamanic cultures believe absolutely that there are other entities out there that there is a larger framework out there you know so many people but the majority of us the majority of the normal people get raised in a religion they kind of like you know grow up with that and then they continue to endorse it or they break away from it and sometimes completely throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that is very interesting, kind of like, you know, how two billion people right now are in this Catholic tradition all by themselves already, of, like, having this framework which is created for the last 2,000 years, and everything where you look around you in this Western world is basically the cardboard books of the last 2,000 years.

Yeah, the Catholic one, that's where I started out when I was a little kid. I was Catholic. Same here. I can't believe there's so many people that are still in that. That one's a tricky one. That one's, I mean, like how much abuse do you have to take? How many kids have to get molested by priests? And how many times do they have to cover that up?

How many people have to live these horrible, guilt-laden lives because of that wacky-ass fucking religion? But you see, this is what the Catholic religion doesn't give any shit about it. Because this is what they think about. You are baptized. that's all they care about for the rest of your life whether you live good whether you murder people they don't care because once you're baptized you are going to die you do the rituals and all of that stuff and then they believe in a physical resurrection of the dead at the time when jesus comes back living right or you know whether you are a pedophile or a mass murderer,

they don't care. It's all about being baptized, and that's all good, and the rest is all pretty much make-believe and entertainment for the masses. Well, I don't think that's the case. I think they care if you're a pedophile or a murderer. I mean, people don't want that in their community. But I know what you're saying, that if you follow the dogma, if you follow the actual word of the religion,

the most important part is that they're baptized so that they can possibly come back or go to heaven. What do they have to say? They love Jesus right before they die. They have to say that they accept Jesus into their heart. Do they have to say it? Nope. Do they have to say it? I have to say it.

That's the one. They're supposed to say it, right? Do you always have that in the back of your head, like, just in case? Like, I'm like, all right, what is it again? Okay, I got to do that. No, but this chick I used to date, her roommate, used to say shit like that. It's just in case. Just in case.

I accept you into my heart. Car crash. Just in case. It's like, it's always good to better be safe than sorry. What the fuck are you talking about? Put on those purple Nikes. Yeah, it's just ridiculous how big it is. And those stories are far more ridiculous

than the Zacharias Hitchin tale of humanity. The Zacharias Hitchin tale of humanity is like, hmm, that makes you, I mean, it's like, we know what we can do we got a rover on mars right now we're collecting soil we're taking for we know we can do that and we know that we didn't used to be able to do that a hundred years ago so why wouldn't we think that someone could have been here a few thousand years ago this is a young ass planet planet's only been around like four billion years or something like that, right? 4.6?

Yeah, if you look at the Earth in comparison to the rest of the universe, there's planets that are billions of years older than us out there somewhere. And, you know, again as you were saying earlier, it's like give 100 years in the future and

if they came here 8,000 years ago, how would you tell yeah and statistically there there are like you know people have been doing the statistical analyses and there would have been two or three of these incidents happening now first of all you know if a spaceship does crash in let's say 15 000 bc somewhere in america good luck finding evidence of that. There's hardly anybody living here at that moment in time. Wouldn't spaceships last longer, though, than iPhones? Your iPhone wouldn't be around for 10,000 years,

but a fucking spaceship? That shit is pretty durable, I bet. It'd be around for a while. You would hope. You would hope. You're going to travel through galaxies with one of those fucking things. Our planet's so young, it hasn't even started its period.

Brian, these are not good. These are not good lines you're interrupting this important conversation with. I apologize. See, the problem with those, Brian, is they're train wrecks, and they ruin the flow of the conversation. And now I don't even remember what we were saying. The planet is... Shut up. Shut up, Brian.

It is an issue with people when they talk about the origins of humanity. They talk about the origins of civilizations and how far we've come over this short period of time. It is an issue with people where there's no clear beginning.

It's like, it gets foggy, some Mesopotamia, something, you know, it gets real foggy. It gets real foggy about five, 6,000 years ago.

And those guys were all talking about people that lived before then. They all had stories of ancient civilizations that were more advanced and greater. They all have these catastrophe stories. And they also all have these stories about being visited. Yeah, and I mean, the ancient Egyptians are probably the best example of this. They have stories which basically say

that they go back 25,000 years ago to a time when the gods, whatever they are, ruled and were present amongst us. Then they disappeared. Then there were some kind of demigods and then dynastic rule of Egypt came. And that's kind of very much something which you find everywhere. Whether you go into Arizona,

you hear the same story of the Hopis, this period when the gods were amongst us that they still can be contacted. And in the case of the ancient Egyptians, you have this other very interesting scenario that they speak about Atlantis. And these wonderful Greek who have for so many generations dominated our education as the cradle of civilization.

Well, they themselves say they weren't the cradle of civilization. Pythagoras says he studied in ancient Egypt. All of them went to ancient Egypt to study these things, yet we keep calling them Pythagoras this and Euclid this and all of that stuff. But they all say it came from Egypt. So all of this knowledge came from Egypt. And what happens is that in the 4th century, when Plato starts writing about Atlantis,

he says, you know, this is history. He writes about it in a history book. He has his critics because nobody in Greece is believing that somehow Athens is thousands of years older than they believe. They are talking about lost civilization somewhere in what seems to be the Atlantic Ocean and that there's this continent behind it. What kind of nonsense is this? So as soon as he's written it, basically a few guys

jump on a boat, go to Egypt, hope that they can get confronted with evidence which shows that Suleiman and Plato are absolute morons who've invented this. And they arrive in the temple complex and the Egyptian priest kind of like points and says, yep, that's the column over there, which has this story. And they jump back in the boat, arrive in Athens, and basically say, oh, yeah, sorry, you know, yeah, Plato was right. The ancient Egyptians have this information about this lost civilization. Now, that doesn't mean necessarily that ancient Atlantis is real, but definitely that the ancient Egyptians believed that it was real.

And all of that is kind of like factual. All of this is identified as being real. We know that this guy jumped on a boat and that this column was there up until the 4th century BC. And what we have right now, again, these cardboard books, which we're trying to maintain, we have the likes of Ken Federer, who, you know, I'm all about the fact that there should be debate, but it also has to be informed. And this guy basically says, well, you know, Plato invented this. This is an idealized state. And when you ask him, but it's about history, he says

it's history. Well, that was a literary device. He invented the literary device. He was very upset with the way Athens was being run. And so he pretends that it is history. And he really wants to expose Athens. And it's like, oh, shut up. Again, right now there is no evidence that Atlantis was real. But we should get to a point to say that there is some validity that it might be real. And guess what? 10,000 years ago, we know that water levels were lower.

We know that there was ice above things like Great Britain, two miles of ice sitting there. That begins to melt at the end of the last ice age. The sea levels begin to rise. What's the story of Atlantis, of a low-level plane somewhere near water, which all of a sudden is submerged by water, which comes out of nowhere, apparently, and submerges this civilization.

It's what we have found. Haven't they discovered what they believe is the concentric circles that made up of Atlantis in Spain? Well, they have found so many things. The answer is that our ancestors built in concentric circles everywhere. In the book, Lost Civilization, there's actually the work of a Belgian historian, Marcel Mastak, who finds that these circles also existed around Stonehenge, Avebury, but also in France.

Why did they do that? Why did they build like that? We don't necessarily know. The indications are that our ancestors were very much aware of water technology they realized that they wanted to do certain things with water that they could purify it somehow that they could get more quality out of this that you know like it's it's somehow that they understood the qualities of of water and we're only beginning to touch that there's some research so those concentric circles may have been filters potentially i mean over the last 10 to 20 years people have beginning to look at this most of most of it in russia uh it is slowly coming back to us and kind of like the results of what you're

doing but yeah you know like a motto with his water um and memory and all of that stuff it's also probably a good way to have buildings set up and if you had it into these concentric circles and the water was inside of each circle everyone would have access to water. Yes and there's also something about you know like the proximity to water how this was somehow important and beneficial to health that water healed you know until a few years ago everybody went to these spas across the world to partake in the waters, which were meant to cure everything. And it definitely made our ancestors feel better.

And that seems to be a tradition which existed for thousands of years, to take this path somehow that this water was important. But also, of course, they had to make sure that the water was pure, that the water was clean, that it didn't contain things which would rather kill you rather than heal you. Well, water has always been something that makes people feel good too, right? I mean, it's got to be helpful for you, playing in the ocean and just… Oh, my wife is a big supporter of saying, if you have a problem, take a shower. And there are people who actually say that the physical fact of water getting on your head makes your brain think better. And she's an absolute, like, she's an example of this.

She will sometimes go into the shower and come back and say, this problem, I kind of like have the solution. I think I found this. She's not alone. It definitely feels good. That's one of the great pleasures of being a civilized person. Take a hot shower, man. I went camping recently, and I was camping for five days.

We wore the same clothes no shower was cold out so no showers no nothing and then finally we checked in in a hotel room on the fifth day and i took a shower and i took a shower for like an hour it felt so good and it's i don't think we we have so many awesome things like that that we don't even appreciate so it's much likely or it's very likely rather that these people that even in atlantis probably weren't as sophisticated as us and it comes to a lot of things but they did have different methods of of running their society different methods of employing natural resources to to you know they didn't have a gas and oil-based society so we have

to look at that as well like what when when you're dealing with people that didn't have a gas and oil based society so we have to look at that as well like what when when you're dealing with people that didn't have machines and combustion engines and a gas and oil based society you you got to wonder like how does this super intelligence of the human mind manifest itself in a physical form what seemed like it did with stone it seemed like that's that was where all the intelligence went, all the thought and innovation went to structures and building these incredible geometrically accurate structures. Well, our ancestors, I think, had far more knowledge than

we do. And this is to some extent also visible, I think, in the work which Jeremy Narby is trying to do with the pharmacology industry. Far more knowledge about what, though? Knowledgeable about various things, like whether it is plants, plants, how they can heal, how we can use them. You know, today we can like say, OK, pill X is made out of this and this molecule and it'll do this in your body. And it is this pill which we can give you, which we have created through lots of machinery. And in the Amazon, it doesn't work like that. They'll say, what's wrong with you? They'll do the analysis. And they'll say, oh, if we boil plant Y for five hours and we mix it with plant Z,

the end result will be something which will help you with this. It's knowledge-based, but the preparation is so easy. You either boil it or you take it in its native form or you mix and mingle it's this very basic thing of working but you need to have the knowledge you need to know that all of these plants work and today we have the big physical approach of like you know like we have machines and power plants which are able to produce this pill but the end result is the same you get better from taking this my take on it is that they knew a lot more back then um than we think they did but they knew a lot about the natural world they knew a lot about healing but i don't think they had internet i don't think they had google they didn't have cars we know way more now right and we know about them they didn't know about us so they can

go fuck themselves they didn't even see us coming. We're here, bitch. And you're not. I think, you know, like computers and laptops, what are the odds that they had all that shit? Well, you'd have to have oil to make all that stuff. Like the one component that people have to recognize in the construction of almost every modern piece of technology is plastic.

And plastic can be made from plants. we can be made from plants it can be made from hemp fiber but for the most part it's made from fucking oil and there's a lot of the shit that's in there that's made from oil and you got to burn oil to fire up engines to fly over the fucking sky to carry these things from china you know it's uh it's a really uh i mean there's no way around it you need some you need you need to figure out a way to mass manufacture things in order to have a society like this this is a completely different sort of society than they had back then oh yeah i mean definitely but i i think there's this interesting thing you know the more academics deny the existence of atlantis the more extreme some people make this

civilization as well um and i think you think the truth is somewhere in the middle. They were more advanced than, like what you were talking about before, they were more advanced than the people who were running around doing nothing whatsoever on the various other continents, which is why the likes of the ancient Egyptians spoke about them, of like, hey, these guys did something. Hey, these guys lived there. This was, you know, if you ever find something in your neighborhood of Athens, this

might be related to these guys thousands of years ago. But it's not going to be a spaceship. It's not going to be something which is going to be so wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. But it is still wow in the sense that it was a large civilization if we take Plato's word for it. It was

pretty much Europe unified before Europe was ever unified. And it was also a civilization which gave its information to other civilizations. There seems to be this handover of information. Even though the civilization died, not everything died. Some of their knowledge seems to have gone over, which is what the stories of the ancient Egyptians are about and how they somehow

preserve this information from their ancestors. The most shocking thing to me about ancient man is the ability to move giant stones. That one is the real mind fuck. Well, it wasn't the only thing to do back then, so you probably got really good at it, you know? You got a lot of things to do, dude. You had to hunt and you had to gather and you had to uh make food you had to make shelter it's there's always shit to do just being a human being and back then it was probably way more stressful to get your food than it is

today so i don't buy that or rocks just weighed way less back then did you imagine that was the case yeah because there was no way for us to judge that how much it's a great team we know how much rocks weigh you silly fuck. Maybe after years of rain, it starts soaking it in and getting some kind of mold. Like a wet towel. Yeah. A wet towel effect for rocks. Some of the stones, like the Lebanon stones in Baalbek, how old do they think those are?

Nobody knows. You can't date rocks. But they – I mean it's – so many of these structures you can't date. And I mean, trying to answer the bell back thing via Stonehenge, the traditional explanation of Stonehenge is that it is 3000 BC. But there's one guy, Robert Langdon, who's actually showing that these stones are probably 8000 BC. And he's doing it by basically saying

the holes which were found are 8,000 by carbon dating results. Some of the stones which are used elsewhere, specifically the blue sarsens, are found in these holes 8,000 years ago. Sorry, 8,000 BC. So he's basically saying you are constantly putting Stonehenge

in this 3,000 BC framework, but actually the evidence suggests that it is 8000 BC. He's trying to push it out. He's basically trying to do the reinterpretation of this. And in the case of Baalbek, in the case of so many things, it's always circumstantial dating. You know, this building has been repainted, what, a year, two years ago? And imagine if somebody, you know, five years ago says like, oh, a year, two years ago? And imagine if somebody five years ago says, oh, this building dates from seven years ago because the paint is seven years ago.

Well, that is circumstantial. In the absence of, you need to go further. You need to be able to find out more. And in the case of this building, you will probably find land registries. You will find so much information, which shows that it is probably 30, 40 years. But in the case of things like Baalbek you don't have anything you have a bit of plant life or some kind of discarded wood from an ancestors um you know

it's like trying to date Baalbek or Stonehenge or whatever monument by by a Twix wrapper which a tourist has left there uh 3 000 years from now that funny, that's a funny way of looking at it. How big are those stones, the Baalbek stones? They're big. Some of the stones in the foundation of the platform are 800 tons. There is one in situ which wasn't completely excavated which was 1,200 tons. It is absolutely gigantic. So how tall is that? Is it like 8 feet tall, 9 feet tall? I think the 1200 one is... What about the ones that actually got moved?

Those are about 8 to 12, I think, yes. Jesus Christ. Meters and feet. And so what would be the theory? What is the standard academic theory about how those people who were basically hunter and gatherers, how they figured out how to do that? Largely, they don't address it. Largely, it's somehow like, oh, look, they're there. The Romans did this.

And to a large extent, Baalbek is like that as a whole. It is the second largest temple complex which the Romans built on top. And parts of that haven't been explained by traditional scientists either. They kind of like will go like, well, you know, some of these stones are 200 tons. And we know that the ancient Romans were able to work with cranes of five tons. And so they kind of go like, so we need 40 of these cranes. And you kind of go, OK, so where are you going to put them? It's kind of like saying, you know, we need 40 people, but your room can only hold five.

Where are you going to put the 35 extra? You have to fit them somewhere, these cranes around this piece of rock. And so they do this all the time, whether it's the Great Pyramid of Egypt. Any pyramid theory about how they are built as proposed by an archaeologist is ridiculed by a project manager in the building industry because they basically go like, you can't do that, you can't build anything like that. It's kind of like saying, how many people do you need for the building of this? And some archaeologists will say, oh, 10,000. Okay, fit them around this pyramid, put them all in line.

They play with some of these numbers. And in the case of Baalbek, when it comes to the foundation stones, like, you know, some will say, well, we know in the case of Jerusalem that the ancient Romans constructed this and they were using things like 200 or 400 tons. Great. 800 tons is pretty much double of that. And we don't really know even how the

ancient Romans did this. They clearly did, but how they did it in the case of Baalbek is unknown. We can speculate. Wooden rollers are a great device. Levers, wooden rollers, massive amounts of slaves pushing it, but

still. But if you put a big stone on top of a wooden roller, the wooden rollers basically gets destroyed. It gets incinerated through the weight. If wooden rollers were used, somehow our ancestors were able to do something to that wood to make

something happen with that wood, which would be able to sustain the weight on top. Doesn't seem right, though. No, and here's the thing. This is what bugs me so much. It is the fact that so much of what our ancestors did remains unexplained on a very mundane level. The most basic things as to how Stonehenge was built,

how Avri was built, why it was as to how Stonehenge was built, how Avery was built, why it was built, how this moat was dug, Baalbek, Jerusalem, so many things, it doesn't get explained by scientists. And the reason why is that archaeologists dig these things up and then somehow treat it as if it's their bailiwick and they're going to come up with the explanations. Now, an archaeologist is good with a shovel, but he has no idea about the building industry. He has no idea about project management. And as soon as some of these people from the outside basically say, we know some of these things. Would you like us to help? The archaeologists say, basically, fuck off. This is our garden. This is our playground.

We don't want you. Wow. uh you i'm sure you've seen that video ancient aliens debunked i did and you wrote a piece about it have you seen his theory about the interior ramp of how they constructed it i saw that i thought it was fascinating but it's still the the great pyramid is still so bananas it doesn't it doesn't help just knowing that they made a ramp doesn't help for folks who don't know the numbers this is because i used to do a bit about the pyramids the great pyramid has what is it two million six hundred thousand stones and if you cut in place 10 a day it would take you 664 years to build i read that somewhere just 10 of those monster fucking stones a day it would

take you 664 years to make the pyramid like that is that is that that's such a crazy accomplishment that building well i mean a great friend of mine um he's unfortunately having to take care of of his dying wife is joseph davidovichich. And Joseph Davidovich is a French professor. He's called the father of his own science, geopolymers. And basically, in the 1970s, what he was looking at was he looked at rocks and he said, like, OK, I know how rocks are created, geological process, volcanic activity. But is there a way I can recreate rocks in my laboratory? And the answer was yes, he was able to accomplish this, and he called this a geopolymer. And basically, a geopolymer is a natural rock, sorry, is a man-made rock, which looks almost

identical to a natural rock. Now, there are certain differences. In limestone, for example, you know, you see these little mollusks and all of these other things which are in there, and they're all neatly aligned because the water came in and the wave came out, and they're all neatly aligned because the the water came in and the wave came out and they're all perfectly aligned in a geopolymer that's not the case because basically somebody has tossed it in in some structure and has basically over a period of 24 hours to 48 hours created this thing so he went to egypt on a holiday in the 19 late 1970s with his wife family looked at the great pyramid and said this is a geopolymer all of these blocks are made in what i have just discovered and he began to point out um on the

geyser plateau 40 easily identifiable features in about these rocks which anybody who goes there with his book can see for themselves that this isn't natural stone. That's been disputed though, right? Hasn't that? I mean, the geologists are not agreeing with him. There are certain ones that have actually put up a stink about that. What do you think about that? The great first one, Dr. Zahi Hawass, who we mentioned early on,

he basically said he is an idiot. This is not cement. And it isn't cement Hawass has no idea what he's talking about, since then the likes of Michael Barsoom who is a professor I think in Detroit University or somewhere in American University

he has taken pretty much the role up there from Davidovich, they have submitted samples of geopolymers to some of the ancient Egyptian, sorry, to Egyptian departments, laboratories, and they basically said, oh, this is natural limestone, to which, you know, Barsoom and Davidovich said, no, it's not. We created it a few weeks ago. But the basic problem is this. We have a professor, a father of a science, a guy who has medals left, right, and center. And the archaeologists basically say, go away. This is our playground. We're not even

going to listen to what you're going to say. Instead, we're going to pretend that what you were saying is that the Great Pyramid was made of cement, and we know it wasn't made of cement. And that is kind of like the sad thing and you know when it comes to project management when it comes to all of these this disciplines they basically say f off we don't want you here it's our playground it's our sandpit so there are uh actually i'm looking at this there there are many people very very intelligent people that believe that this is made out of concrete. So the propaganda may actually be the people that are disputing it.

Because some scientists from MIT, it seems like they believe... I'm trying to read this as I'm doing it. Yeah, they believe that it's very possible that this was a, what they're calling a limestone concrete, and that they just made powder and mixed it there. And that's why they're all perfect, because they were cut, they were poured into a mold, which is far easier to do, because then you're just carrying bags of shit up there

instead of actual pyramids, pyramid stones, rather. I mean, there's one stone which he points out, again, like, you know, his books are mostly in French, but he has self-published one in English. And basically, he points out one stone where there is weathering in the middle. Now, weathering of a stone

in the middle of a stone doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How is this possible? And the only reason why it's possible is because at one point in time time probably at night they mixed on they poured one stone to a certain level and the following day they completed it to the next level as a result of which the weathering occurred both at the top and in the middle of the stone but again you know throughout the the pyramid complex he's able to to show you and and

guide you around potential evidence because again there needs to be more research done. But 40 points is more than one to kind of like do an indication that this might be the case. And the sad fact to me, the thing which abhors me, is that the scientific establishment just basically says, fuck off. This is his actual position. This makes it actually even more interesting uh his position is that only 10 or 20 percent were cast and that most of the blocks were cut this is the what he he believes the most of the blocks were carved as suggested by archaeologists but 10 to 20 percent were probably cast in areas where it

could have been highly difficult to position the blocks so that's that's why they can show you blocks that haven't been cast say see see these these unquestionably were cut this guy's a fool but actually it makes a lot more sense like they figured out both they figured out how to cast blocks and and move them into positions where it would be much more difficult to cut them. And they also cut them as well. It's fucking really a mind-blowing civilization. You really try to wrap your head around where did they get all that information from, and then you look at their own history and it says they were hanging out with gods. Fuck, man.

It sounds so stupid if you buy into it and believe it and bring it up at a dinner party. But if it was real, what a mindfuck that must have been. If human beings really did coexist in the same place as aliens and they really were teaching us. And they were big giant dudes. Like the guy in Prometheus. Is that possible, man? Do you think that's possible? I think that there definitely is something to be said,

that our ancestors were absolutely in communication with non-human intelligences. I don't think that in a number of cases it was physical presence, but definitely that they were in communication with something, and that they could establish this link. It's not like some contact which, I should put this, an intermittent phone signal. It's a constant line. They can kind of go to whatever,

a statue or something in a temple, and this uplink, downlink thing works greatly. And there's also something to be said. All of these cultures across the world, they always say that the offspring of the gods somehow became the rulers. And that is definitely something which is another universal constant. And again, genetic memory is one of these things. It's been poo-ha-ha in the 19th century. The ideas of Carl Jung and all of these things have been pushed aside,

but we have hundreds, thousands of primitive cultures elsewhere who basically say they can access this pool of information on a regulated basis. And, you know, I am a firm believer that certain hallucinogenic substances really take you outside of this cardboard box, outside of this framework, and that they take you into a world of intelligences, and that our ancestors were given the tools and the techniques to basically establish this link. And once this link was established, they could pretty much ask these intelligences whatever they wanted. And then it was up to the intelligences, I guess, whether to say, yeah, we'll tell you this, or no, we won't tell you that. And I think that is to a large extent what our ancestors were saying about this link of the gods being present amongst them, that somehow they were

able to sustain a presence. You know, in a number of occasions, it seems to be specifically in kind of like the, what I would say, the non-traditional societies, some of them which have escaped most attention, remote tribes in China and things like that. There might have been a physical alien creature running around there for a while. But in most societies, specifically the famous ones, it somehow seems that these gods were non-human intelligences, not necessarily physical, but definitely present and somehow in communication with our ancestors. And how that went, very few people knew back then. Do you think that's from psychedelics, that that was the communication method for the non-physical entities? I think it's definitely one possibility. I think it's something which we can go and say this is how it could have happened. That sounds so stupid to anybody who's never done mushrooms.

But if you have or if you've done – Joe, did you see that new study about mushrooms? They're saying that what they thought happens when you do mushrooms is totally wrong, that your mushrooms – Yeah, it shuts off your brain yeah like your your whatever the mushroom's doing to you it's almost like it like flips your switch and uh it's and it runs the show with mushroom well you know what what's weird yeah what mushrooms are is very closely related to uh human neurochemistry when you take a mushroom, mushroom is like, I forget the chemical way to describe it, but it's 4-FOX4-Loloxy-NN-Dimethyltryptamine.

I'm not saying it right, but NN-Dimethyltryptamine is a part of human neurochemistry. So this stuff, this psilocybin, it's like human neurochemistry with a little added something to it. And when it hits you, it basically takes over the show. That's crazy. That's fucking really crazy. That's even scarier.

Well, it is scary. The idea that McKenna always had was that it was an artificial intelligence and that we were eating it and that's how it was communicating with us and that it came here from other planets. Yeah. That's why it's so different. Apparently, there's no other organism on this planet with a phosphorus in the 4 position, according to McKenna.

I don't even know what that means. But like psilocybin. And he believed that it probably came here as spores on an asteroid. And that's why it has such an unbelievable impact. It's like when you have a mushroom experience, if you haven't had one before, it doesn't seem like it could ever be possible. You're like, this is no way. How did I not know that this was a possibility?

To folks who haven't had psychedelic experiences, the idea that a psychedelic experience could somehow be otherworldly intelligence. I hear Richard Dawson, who I'm a huge fan of. I think he's a brilliant guy, Richard Dawkins, rather, and all his breaking down of fundamentalist religions, I think it's fantastic stuff. my God, you have to know that there's so many books and so much work written on the connection between what they call entheogens or psychedelic substances and higher states of consciousness, revelations, religious experiences. Why would you as an intellectual not want to experience that? It's not like you'd never come back,

or it's not like it fucking you know red lines your brain sends you into a a mental tree but i think it's because the the definition of a psychedelic is that it's a drug it puts you somewhere which isn't real so it's of no interest to explore that why would you want to create why would why do you want to explore that i think that is a very silly way of looking at reality i think that the idea that we even understand what that's doing to you, all that means to me is you haven't done it. That's all it means to me. If you really feel like you have some concrete definition

as to what's going on in that state, I most likely say you probably haven't done it before. Because if you have done it, you'd come back very humble about your opinions on what's going on there. It's too weird. And that's what our ancestors are saying. They had this entire system of initiations. And what we're discovering is that through a series of fasting, sleep deprivation, psychedelic drugs, whatever it is, and all of it together combined, they basically pushed you out of your comfort zone.

And it was the high level. You were going to experience your ancestors. You were going to experience the gods. You were going to really find out that you were not alone in the universe. And this is pretty much everything which our ancestors are saying. And like in the book, I say,

at some point, relatively early on, 30,000, 25,000 years ago, we figured it out. We figured out that this cardboard box, the things which we see with our senses, is not everything there was to reality. We figured out that there was something larger there. And we began to speculate and think about as to why we were here. What was you know why do we run around here what is this thing in the mind and then you know they didn't have computers they didn't have all of that stuff but they were thinking about it and they were experiment based and to a large extent we're back to where we are because right now you have you know surgeons in hospital environments who are pushing

little X's or little weird things on top of machinery where the patient will never see it. But when the patient says like, hey, doctor, why is the little thing on top of this thing there? The doctor will kind of go like, how did you know? You had a near-death experience. He had an out-of-body experience. You somehow were able to pick this up through non-sensory means. And, you know, we're back there. But as a whole, again, jumping on my horse here, science isn't interested. Science basically says, like, it's nothing to do with us. It's religious.

We're never going to look into these things. And what you have is this standoff or this stalemate or whatever situation we're never going to look into these things. And what you have is this standoff or this stalemate or whatever situation we're in, whereby people hunger for information. Nobody who has the tools and, to some extent, the schooling to give us the answers is interested. And so at the other end of the perspective, you have wild theories.

You have the fact that the ancient Atlanteans must have had helicopters, machinery, and all of these things. And guess what? I actually don't care too much. I don't believe it, but I don't care too much that it's out there because it seems somehow, you know, Eric von Däniken had to say that the Nazca lines were a spaceport before a few scientists went to Peru and studied them and tried to preserve them, before 0.001 was interested, and it was a lone woman, basically trying to convince the locals not to drive over in their trucks over the Nazca Lines.

She was the only one interested. Nobody else was. It took a guy to say, hey, maybe the gods have landed here. Maybe this is a spaceport. Before they were pushed into action. And so, you know, the fact that people are making up sometimes extremely wild claims might hopefully push these people, these scientists

off their butt into the field and do actually some kind of research. Even to disprove things. Just to do some kind of research. Even to disprove things. Just to do some something on it. Do something. And you know, in the case of the Nazca Lines, what they have been discovering since is so great. They have discovered pyramids.

They have discovered that these people had a high civilization. There are even potentially, there are even people out there who really began to realize that what was happening there had to be seen from the sky. For folks who don't understand what the Nazca lines are, just fill them in, because some people might be ignorant to it. Well, the Nazca lines are basically gigantic geoglyphs, some in the shape of monkeys or other animals. Quite often and mostly famous are the

lines, which just crisscross. They have basically been made by sweeping off a top layer of surface of sand, and below, there's quite often a whiter surface. So they stay visible for hundreds of years because it's a desert condition. It hardly rains at all on that plateau. And it's come to a point where people have said, okay, they have to be seen from the sky. And there are a few scientists out there who've actually seen that some of the rocks near some some of the some of the lines were exposed to extreme height they also began to see that some people were actually buried with extreme height is a heat or heat there were also people who were buried with basically

what we would describe as hang glider material and so they're beginning to find out that these people took to the skies, and one of them has actually proposed that they had balloons, that this is why the hot air basically was encapsulated, and they went to the sky. Other people, you know, are pursuing things like kites. All of these things, all of a sudden, are becoming within the bailiwick of the potential. People are looking at this and see whether this is possible, whether they can find evidence around Nazca. And so, you know, this, it took somebody to say, hey, this thing needs to be seen from

the sky before people are really beginning to say, oh, yeah, there is something to this Nazca civilization. There were pyramids there. This is not an important civilization which was there. That is a crazy concept that they might have had some sort of air travel. They figured out some sort of plane or something. Now, if it was just hand gliding, would that be enough? Is that possible?

There is definitely evidence that there was some kind of hand gliding. Obviously, the environment was allowing for that as well. I would think people would try that shit. If you get to the top of a big cliff and the wind is blowing like crazy and you see a bird doing it, you know there's some crazy motherfucker that's going to try to make a wing. I mean, that's probably always been people. People probably always try to figure, put some animal skins and strap it down. I mean, it's like you're just mimicking what you see right in front of you that already works.

Wow, that's crazy if they figured out some sort of rudimentary air flight. I mean, actually, I believe the latest Boeings, the 737 and all the 800 series of that, they have like these little things at the ends of the wings which stick up now. And it's the Boeing engineers who looked at some of the birds, specifically the birds of prey, and they realized that these birds had little feather at the ends as well.

And so they began to test in the wind tunnels whether putting this thing at the end of the wings of planes would help. And it kind of improved stability and all of that stuff, like percentages, which really were kind of like out of the out of the norm like nature birds are superb flyers and we just mimic them when we are designing aircraft one of the most fucked up things about that area around the nasca lines is those skeletons they find with the elongated heads where these people, they took their heads of the babies and they smushed them to form.

They tried to get them to look like aliens. You would think of, if you think of an alien, you think of someone with a really big, long head. And they did that on purpose to their heads. I mean, again, these are the same people like you and I. Your child. Would you subject your child to wooden planks and years of basically,

probably not abuse in the school by having these elongated skulls? And they say they did it because somehow these children were special or going to be special in a sense that they were going to resemble the gods. Brian, have you seen that shit before? No. Pull it up. Google elongated skulls.

Just Google that and you'll see. I bet Peru is even more specific. It's a very, very strange practice. And it was really common. It's not like they found one or two of these. They found fucking burial grounds filled with these fucking things where they stretched out people's heads. Do you know the number of how many of these different skulls they found?

It depends. I mean, we're talking about hundreds when it comes across the world. And it is a worldwide phenomenon. Like, you know, one of the images there had to do with one from Egypt. They are found in North America. They're found across the world.

And didn't Tutankhamen have a very elongated head himself? It seemed natural, but an oddly shaped head himself? Well, in the depictions, him and his dad were depicted as such, yeah. He had a normal skull as a human being, but he was depicted as this weird creature. Now, of course, his dad, which we all assume is Akhenaten,'s really depicted weirdly apart from a weird hat all of his joints are weird as well and again they're trying to explain it

the way as if he had more felons or something like that some kind of disease which basically means that you have deformities of your fingers your bones but they haven't found his body Akhenaten's body is missing

and I find it interesting that one of the potentially more interesting bodies is missing in action. If anybody knows the whereabouts of Akhenaten's body, please help. Because he was an interesting guy. He absolutely, you know, took over a system of ancient Egypt and basically said, you're all mistaken. You can experience the gods in certain other ways. And I'm going to push forward my religion and basically tell you how it is. And I think what happened was that in his case, again, this trepanation of elongating skulls, it has to happen from birth. And I think his revelation happened.

Obviously, he wasn't a teenager or an adult when he had it. He couldn't travel back in time and do it to his own skull. And Tutankhamen, I think, was already too old as well. This is speculation, to have it done to him. So it would have been the next generation, basically, Tutankhamen's children, where they could have performed it on if they so wanted to. But definitely in art, they were depicted as such if they could. Well, it seems like in art it might have been exaggerated,

but it does seem like there's people that are saying that the skull itself of Tutankhamen was elongated, and the skull of his family, apparently. Other members of his family apparently other members of his family who else was of his family was alive I think Tia or Ty was his wife I think he had a sister I think he had some deceased people who were dying before him again the great controversy is, you know, did he die naturally or was he murdered? Robert Beauval and Ahmed Osman have written about it in their recent book, and it's a great controversy which doesn't want to go away. Yeah, that's the most recent one,

is the National Geographic saying that he was not murdered violently. That CT scans show. Huh. What a fucking nutty find that must have been. They found that in 1926, huh? Can you imagine just digging and you hit that thing in the middle of that sandy-ass desert where there's nothing going on,

and you all of a sudden hit this incredible treasure trove of artwork and just this insight into what it was like back then. How many of those tombs were there that just got found and raided and just stripped of all their wealth? So many of them, the majority. What a huge, huge loss for history. Because just what we found makes you just go what the fuck was going on back then when you look at the sarcophagus and the gold and the guild work and you're like

with this these people were living so much differently than anybody in europe yeah and i mean just you know like in the new world in in cor, in Cusco, you had an entire temple made out of gold. You had golden animals. The entire courtyard was made out of gold. And the Spanish came. They melted it all down, put it on ships to sail back to Spain. And English pirates basically sank the ships. And all of that gold is sitting at the bottom of the sea.

and all of that gold is sitting at the bottom of the sea. And so, you know, it's kind of like double sad because it was first melted. There are stories that some of it has been secreted away. People in about one every 50 years, there's a guy who comes forward and says, like, I was led into certain aspects of basically subterranean parts of this original structure and there is still something there.

People like Javier Sierra have written fiction books about them. That one hasn't been translated from Spanish into English yet. But there was so much gold, there was so much treasure and so much has disappeared. And it is so sad to see that so little remains. Yeah, because Tutankhamen was just one guy. He was a minor god. He was a minor pharaoh. Nobody cared about him. Ramses was so much more important.

Just imagine what he would have had. It's crazy. It's really crazy when you think about what they could have discovered. We know so much just because of Tutankhamen's discovery. It's saying that the examinations of his skull, though, that he did have an elongated head. Probably wasn't as exaggerated as the images. But he had impacted wisdom teeth as well. And he had a cleft palate.

So they know that the medicine was not up to par you know so that's at least good evidence that if this guy was a pharaoh okay they didn't understand basic dentistry they didn't know how to fix cleft palates so they they weren't ahead of us with everything you know they they you know again they were very good at certain things but they were crap at others like yeah i mean the ancient Egyptians, for example, as much as they built things, they never built things like arches. They were able to build bridges, but they never built arches. Now, it's possible that they could build arches,

but they basically didn't think they were aesthetically pleasing. But certain things like what we would think they would have been able to do, they might not have been able to do. But at the same time, building structures with hundreds of tons of stone in there, whether it's the Valley Pyramid Complex or the Great Pyramid, they were able to do. And people often say when it comes to the Great Pyramid, oh, like, you know, OK, it was the Eiffel Tower last century, well, two centuries ago now,

which rivaled it. That's King Tut's actual skull. That is indeed somewhat elongated. Yeah, that's his actual skull. That's the actual CAT scan of his skull. You could pull that up, Brian. We could take a look at that. Wow.

But that's nothing compared to the images. He's got a fucked up head for sure he'd make it made fun of in high school but uh he didn't look like an alien that's probably why they put him in private education major what if he did have a fucking giant brain what if the pharaohs were like more that what if they originally had some alien in them and eventually got bred out is that possible well i mean again it's possible if somebody were to do research into it to explore it what we know is that our ancestors said that all of these kings were partly human partly divine and that they were here to make a bridge between

our world and the world of the gods that was their job and if they were unable to do that they were quite often kicked out and basically told okay okay, we'll find another one, a substitute for you. The ancient Egyptian pharaohs, specifically when they became older, were quite often told to perform a hapsad festival, which was basically a fitness test, whereby they physically and mentally had to prove that they could somehow communicate with the world of the gods. That is clearly a job specification. They were told to do this, and clearly it means that this communication with the gods for them somehow involved a physical aptitude thing.

It wasn't that they were simply inventing certain things. They were basically told, you need to be physically fit to do these things, whether it is through hallucinogenic substances, some kind of other means which we haven't been able to identify. But across the world, the job of a king was to be an enabler, a bridge between us and the world of the ancestors, the gods, whatever you want to call them. I think it's very difficult for people in this day and age to wrap their heads around the idea that at one point in time the whole reality of human beings was very very

different than it is now but if you stopped and thought about it and if there was some introduction or some uh um intervention rather of some sort of alien consciousness physical alien forms and then they weren't there anymore and they weren't there for thousands and thousands of years how much would we know how much evidence will be left what what would be around that we could point fingers at well there'd be like stone carvings that show giants holding small people they have those they really do have those i mean there there is some a lot of ancient art that show that the the ancient um sumerian stuff is the weirdest stuff where it actually has double

helix dna that the ancient sumerian like i've had conversations with people that try to um deny that they had some knowledge of the the workings of the solar system like it's really you'd have to be crazy you look look at what they left in stone tablets. Like, they knew where the stars were. They knew where the planets were. They knew the constellations. They knew, for sure, they knew what was going on in our solar system. They knew where the planets were.

They had them in the right order. They had, like, little, and people would try to say, no, that's not the planets. Those are just some stars. Like, what are you talking,? Why is there the right amount? Why are they the same size? Why is it in proportion? The big ones here and the smaller ones there. That looks like the sun and the solar system.

It looks like our planets. And, you know, very basic things like Nabra's sky disk seems to be this metal plate which has a moon and a sun on it and then some kind of like bars. And you kind of think like, oh, how sweet. Our ancestors were trying to depict the sun and the moon you know how clever of them our little ancestors and then some people start to analyze this for real and they realize that if you hold it in front of you you and you direct it to the horizon these little bars which you might think are of no significance whatsoever mark on the place where these were were found in Germany the position of the rising of the sun and the setting of the sun

on things like the solstices and the equinoxes. And all of a sudden you kind of go, oh shit, it looks stupid, but actually, you know, it's a very clever device. What's the name of this device again? It's the NEBRA disc, NEBRA sky disc, N-E-B-R-A. There's one thing that you talked about in your book that we've talked about on this podcast before because it's uh it's always fascinated me um that device how do you say

it again what's the the anticaterra device explain that thing because that's a mind fucking a half well the anticaterra device is basically a piece of metal which was heavily corroded found in the shipwreck off the coast of g of Greece in 1901 or 1902. It was put in a museum where it sat for several decades. And in the 1950s and 60s, a guy called Derek de Solo Price became interested in this. And he began to look at it. He began to study this. And he felt that this somehow was a scale model of our solar system,

thrown in some kind of constellations, throw in obviously the moon, throw in some zodiacal signs. And he began to experiment with this. He pushed the theory forward, which was attacked because we all know that the Greeks are stupid and were not able to do this because, you know, the earth was flat, wasn't it? Until somebody in the 16th century proved otherwise. So he was attacked. But in the last 10, 15 years, and specifically with computer modeling techniques, what they have found is basically

that Derek Price wasn't 100% right, but that he definitely had the right frame of mind, that this was basically a scale model of our solar system. Now, what they've been able to show is that the Greeks were using Babylonian things like metonic cycles about the moon, that basically this device was taking in astronomical information from ancient Babylonia, native to Greek things, general information about, you know, how the Earth has 365 days to go around the sun and all of that stuff,

that they made this device, which basically, you know, would have had the sun at its middle and then all the planets going around it, that this device actually worked, that this kind of like was put in motion and then continued. So it's like a watch for the universe. Yeah. Or the solar system. Or the solar system. And they think because they don't know, you know, this device was found.

So they go into ancient accounts and ancient Greek accounts and trying to find out whether anybody is talking about it. And they have found sporadic references to people basically saying this would sit in a temple. So somehow our ancient Greek ancestors were creating these devices, were putting them into temples to basically show how the universe worked. Imagine that. Imagine going into a Christian church right now and finding a scale model of the solar system in there.

But for the Greeks, that was apparently what they wanted. And we have, what is the idea of how old this thing is? The device is probably 2nd century or 1st century BC. And that is what remains of it. So it's at least 2,000 years old. Yes. Jesus fucking Christ. What is the academic response to that?

What do they believe it is? They are silently accepting. Really? They basically realize they can't contest its origins. It's found in the shipwreck. They can't contest that it's 2,000 years old. So they have to accept for what it is. They have to accept that there are gears. Where they rebel at is if somebody would push the boat out too much. So right now they kind of say, well, you know,

it's a representation of the solar system, but it has some errors in there. And to some extent, they can get away with that because basically what we have is a piece of material which was in seawater for 2,000 years, and it is painstakingly being kind of like, you know, how many wheels does it have here? How wide is this? All of this is reconstruction, which is going to take decades more

before we have a completely accurate representation of what this device was because it's sort of corroded and mushed together it's completely corroded obviously it sits in a museum which basically means that they're very reluctant to do destructive testing or anything of taking apart so it relies on technology to go through this piece of corroded material and come up with better images, better imaging software and all of that stuff to identify what the wheels precisely were. But basically the overall picture is this, that the ancient Greeks were able to do certain things which we didn't give them credit for.

And very slowly the academics are kind of going, yeah, okay, that's fine, because it's safe. It's ancient Greece. We've credited the ancient Greeks with an awful lot of these things. And even though it sits somewhat outside of the Bellowic, we don't really want to credit them with a machine. I mean, people actually refer to it as the first computer. Yeah, and spell it.

So, folks, because I know people are scrambling right now to figure out, how do you spell it? Anti-Kythera, anti as in we don't care about them, and Kythera, K-Y-T-H-E-R-A. how do you spell it? Anti-Katerra anti as in we don't care about them and Katerra K-Y-T-H-E-R-A so go check out that if you really want to get your fucking

it looks like there's an I in the middle almost like a third I think that's just a screw or a bolt or something like that the whole thing is fascinating though look at that

that's 2000 years old that they were making something so complicated it's like a steering wheel it looks like yeah it could be it it's like a steering wheel it will look it looks like yeah it could be you look like it could be like a really ancient clock yeah which it was that's a cat clock 2 000 years ago and that obviously was from some technology that we don't understand we don't know where they got the information from we don't know anything about it

nope but what we do know about it is that, you know, again, our ancestors were more intelligent, were more clever than we standard give them credit for. And it's also a good representation of what happens to something just after 2,000 years. Now, if you think about what 2,000 years is to human history and then go back and say, well, this guy, the Egyptologist, was like, where's the evidence of this 10,000-year-old culture? Where would that stuff be? Eight more thousand-plus years, that's not going to exist anymore. It's obviously corroding away after 2000. And if you come to the last ice age, 10,000, 12,000 years ago,

parts of Britain were under an ice sheet two miles thick. It washed away everything. It changed the layout of hills. Any hut which we would have had there, any piece would have just been completely obliterated by the power of the ice. Yeah, that's another thing that people have to take into consideration when you think about how long people have been around. We had to move around a lot.

There are spots where people are around that were erased by miles of ice slowly crushing everything in its path. Literally like a giant eraser. You know, a lot of people on Twitter are freaking out about the Tutankhamen thing, showing me all these images of how they get babies to stretch their heads out. It doesn't mean that he's an alien. I'm not saying

Tutankhamen was an alien. What I am saying is, and I think it's fascinating, and I don't think, I don't see how it could be disputed, that all of these people who are stretching their baby's heads out are trying to get their baby's heads to look like what we consider the classic image of aliens.

That, to me, is very weird. It's very weird that you would want to do that. I know that there's weird things that people do culturally, like they stretch their necks out, they plates in their lips there's a lot of wacky shit that people do but that one to me is really interesting when you consider the fact that you're you're dealing with some culture that may or may not have had something to do with space flight or you know or or you know uh air flight and and they do it because they say to resemble the gods to

resemble the ancestors that's why we do it like you know to resemble the gods to resemble the ancestors that's why we do it like you know nipple piercings and all of that stuff which might be considered weird in some cultures we know why they do it we know why women do it um there's always a reason which we can identify and in this case the reason is because they want to resemble the gods and there's another thing uh that i saw you touched on in this book is how many different pyramids and structures they're finding in South America. Yes. It's really bananas, isn't it? Well, I mean, you know, I wrote a previous book called The New Pyramid Age five years ago, and that book is now actually completely out of date because up until 1994, when Robert Bovald wrote The Orion Mystery, we had this idea there are pyramids in Egypt

and there are pyramids in the Mayan culture, and that's pretty much it. But now, and specifically around 2006 and 2007, every single week some pyramid was found somewhere. And we're in a situation right now whereby the academics agree that the oldest pyramids in the world are in Peru, Corral, 2,800.

Now, the Egyptians could be older. We have carbon dating results, as we were saying, but they refused to publish them. But, you know, officially accepted Corral pyramids are older. The largest one volume-wise are La Cholula in Mexico as well. And then height-wise, there is a new contender in the Bosnian pyramids, which might actually be 220 meters, i.e. 660 yards high, which is pretty much quite a bit higher than the Great Pyramid. All of this thing is really changing the pyramid landscape. And also, what is happening is that we're beginning to understand why the pyramids were built, why these structures were there.

And there is this kind of like uniform template, which basically says that our ancestors somehow built pyramids because they were linked with kingship and somehow enabled our ancestors and specifically the king to once again be this bridge from one world to the other. What is the controversy about the Bosnian pyramids? bridge from one world to the other. What is the controversy about the Bosnian pyramids? Because I know even Robert Schock from Boston University doesn't believe that it's a man-made structure. The controversy is that there is very much a divide between Western science and former

East Bloc science on this. It is very much maintained by a small group of people within the archaeological establishment. Anthony Harding is one of them. He was the former president of the Western, sort of European Archaeological Society, and he basically said that if he found any archaeologists digging on the Bosnian Pyramid site, he would forever make sure that this guy or woman never had any other job. The reason I think why it is so controversial is because they are not in control. The license went to Samuels Manigach, who has three PhDs,

one in history, mind studies, one in business, and another one who's I've forgotten, I think it's in anthropology. Actually, no, sorry, in economics. And they realized that they were too late. They realized that this was going to be run differently than traditional archaeological digs, and they made up some incredible BS about it. What happened early on was that Samuels Manegeic wrote to Zahi Hawass

and basically wanted a geologist to come and study these pyramids. He sent Dr. Ali Barakat. Barakat stayed there for roughly two months. He did the analysis and he said that these pyramids were man-made. He

was then attacked by Hawass basically saying, I never sent barakat there, to which Osman Aghaj basically sent a letter signed by Hawass, saying, like, you know, what is this? I was there in 2008. I've been there on a number of occasions, but I was there in 2008 when the first international conference on the Bosnian pyramids was being held.

You had the people who were in charge of the Chinese pyramids, who basically doing the excavations in Xi'an, involving such things, you know, as the emperor who unified China. There were 30 of the leading Egyptologists there. The current minister of antiquities, Mohammed Ibrahim Ali, was one of the people present there. He was at that moment in time the dean of archaeology of Ein Shains. Another dean of archaeology of Cairo University was there. In short, 30 of the leading Egyptologists

and geologists from Egypt were there. When you go on to things like Wikipedia, however, the opening sentence will be that the pyramids are natural phenomenon. But I would invite anybody to click on the talk page of Wikipedia when it comes to will be that the pyramids are natural phenomenon. But I would invite anybody to click on the talk page of Wikipedia when it comes to the Bosnian pyramids, and you will see a guy called Doug Weller who's constantly over there. And he gets asked the question somewhere on the talk page, basically saying, well, in 2008, this committee of,

remember, they were discovered in 2005. first excavations happened in 2006. 2008 was the first time when all of these scientists gathered. They have since gathered in 2011 and 2012 as well. But in 2008 the recommendation of all of these scientists was that they should continue digging and that there was evidence to point out and to suspect that these were more than likely man-made. Since then, there has been more evidence there. When Doug Weller is asked why can the conclusions of the International Conference on the Bosnian Pyramids in 2008 not be mentioned on the front page of the entrance of the Bosnian Pyramid, he says, well, people who believe in creation have these semi-pseudo-archaeological conferences as well,

and Wikipedia should not adhere to these things. Sure, but in this case, when it comes to the Bosnian pyramids, the leading lights of archaeology signed off, physically signed off with their signature on these conclusions from 2008. But there is this idea that we should not look at it and again it has to do with why what about robert shock though because he's not a robert shock went there in 2007 when when very little was wasn't covered so much more has happened since um and i would actually invite him to to go back I would invite everybody to go back What have they found since it's so convincing?

They have done pretty much more excavations they have found at that moment in time of the tunnel complex pretty much what you had in 2007 was roughly 75 yards of tunnel complex it looked like going in one direction for 40, 50 yards

and 25 yards in another direction. Since then, they have found 1,000 yards of this. They have found that it loops back. They have found exposed areas where they didn't have to even scrape anything out, where it just is. They have found underground rivers. They have found gigantic stone boulders weighing 8 tons lying in the middle of these things, of these tunnel complexes.

They have dug up elsewhere. They have found how, for example, tree pyramids are perfectly, the tops of them are perfectly equidistant. They have found how on certain dates of the year, the Pyramid of the Sun casts a shadow precisely on the top of the Pyramid of the Moon. All of these things are things which have been discovered since 2007. And what Schock was looking at in 2007 was very little. It's almost kind of like going into your garden and saying,

hey, I've hit this patch. It's 10 inches wide and it's a stone and it might be something completely else. And you ask a guy about the 10 inches. It seems to me that Gobekli Tepe was the first real significant monkey wrench that they had to discover, you know, that they had to admit that this fucking thing was 14,000-plus years old. There's no getting around it. At this point, I believe it's 5% has been excavated is that what it is now

yes i mean they keep going so the percentages go up yes it's so it's a slow process the excavation so five five percent of it has been uncovered and it was purposely covered up 14 000 years ago yes so and it's so incredible like, you know, they'll kind of like tell you, oh, you know, T-shaped columns, blah, blah, blah, this. But look at the images. This is three-dimensional carving of animals. Yeah. How did they do that? For folks who don't understand, you know, like when you, like say if you had a flat wall and you wanted to carve a monkey into it,

like you would just draw the monkey like you would on a two-dimensional piece of paper. That's not what they did they actually made it larger and then cut the monkey it wasn't a monkey but they cut like a lizard they cut different animals out of it so that they stuck out and then the rest of it was flat and smooth so it all came from one giant piece of stone and they had the technology to trim everything else straight around it, get to that one spot, and then construct this little relief animal. It's really weird. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think it's on something on par which we, again, don't see for thousands of years.

The ancient Egyptians did it somewhat, but I think really it takes us to Gothic times and cathedral building when you see some of these intricacies once again on display. And it's all built at a time where they believe people were just 100% hunter-gatherers. When you go back to 14,000 years, the standard academic model is that people were really unsophisticated back then. Sitting on a boom. Yeah, just chasing animals and throwing sticks at them and shit yeah but meanwhile these people and they found this because the dude was just like sheep herding and he found a rock yeah he like kicked this rock was moving around what

the fuck is this so he starts digging around it and realizes what was it nine feet 19 feet tall how many feet was the the column yeah i don't know the exact dimensions, but basically like somebody in the 1960s had looked at it and the thing was like, oh, this is a medieval Byzantine cemetery of no interest whatsoever. And then everything happened in the early 1990s. There are now people who are actually beginning to do

investigations into it and are coming up with stellar alignments and the fact that these ancestors who built Quebec-Lit tepe had knowledge of the stars and what is interesting is not simply that they had knowledge of the stars and the constellations but that the kind of stars and constellations they were interested in happens to be the kind of constellations which other cultures like ancient egypt and the mines were interested in as well so you have this continuity of of knowledge and you know the more research is going to happen there in gobekli tepe the more and the minds were interested in as well. So you have this continuity of knowledge.

And the more research is going to happen there in Gobekli Tepe, the more it's going to be exposed. And there are actually pockets of other structures near Gobekli Tepe which are actually slightly older. But again, it's going to be piecemeal given to us as to how we are older and more interesting than we really think we are. The whole thing's crazy. They're 10 feet high, these giant T-shaped monolithic pillars.

They're limestone. And there's another bigger pair of pillars is placed in the center of the structures. It's craziness. And again, it's an enormous site. Like they're just slowly starting to piece it together. What do they use? Do they x-ray the ground or something? How do they find out how big it is before they've uncovered it?

Yeah, they're doing basically geophys. And this is just one of them. This is just one of them that might exist. And we could easily stumble upon one in a year that's 10,000 years older than that. Yeah. Oh, I mean, you know, Karel, the pyramids which we were talking about just now in Peru, 40 years ago, people looked at them and said, like, they look like shit. They're like, they don't even look like anything man-made. And guess what? You know, erosion destroyed these things. It's like looking at the Antikythera device and thinking this is just a piece of crap.

That's 2,000 years old. Things change. Put a long play record in the sunshine and we know what happens to it as well. But we need to recognize that sometimes we misidentify it and then we go back and we say, oh shit, this is so much more than than we originally thought it was and that is happening relatively a lot go back to tepe is an example of that corral pyramids is another one of them it's fascinating

that the more a culture advances the more easily its records are destroyed because in the beginning you're just carving shit on rocks and then when it gets gets to us, we've got micro USB cards in your fucking cell phone. And you lose that little fucker. It's gone. Or leave it around. It gets stepped on a couple times. It's done. Leave it in the ground.

The ground will eat it and absorb it in a few years. It'll be gone. It's fascinating to think that if we had some sort of a reset button, like you look at this hurricane that just hit New York and New Jersey and the massive amount of devastation that it did. And just on a purely practical level, like how all of a sudden these people are unable to survive, we really need to send very basic things like clothing and food out to them.

It just shows you how reliant we are on technology to keep our food fresh, to keep our food frozen, to keep us warm. And when that isn't there anymore, we are unable to cope. These people really need help from the rest of us because we have become so over-sophisticated that we can no longer survive in certain conditions. And we out here in Southern California, until we get an earthquake, we don't even know what the fuck weather is. We are completely detached. That's why some of the most clueless people live here.

Some of the people that are the most detached from nature and from the concept of the fact that we are a part of an ecosystem and we're in fact on a planet. ecosystem and we're in fact on a planet because when you live in florida and one of those motherfuckers come through and you realize that this is possible that the earth can possibly have this sort of a crazy violent and powerful reaction it's very humbling it's very humbling and it's in it and it makes you like oh we got a plan for this okay we we might have to dig holes like deep in the ground and cement them in and and build some kind of a shelter that you could survive through this because being on the surface is not an option here in california we don't have that every now and then the ground moves but we forget about it it only moves like every couple decades everybody freaks out moves to colorado and they slowly creep

back in and everybody pretends it never happens and just keeps on going on building houses on the side of hills with stilts have you seen those fucking things oh yes how hilarious are those coming from what you know about uh ancient history like what are you doing with this temporary house you have you silly bitch yeah and you know but here's the difference i think you know our ancestors were just like us they wanted to build that beautiful house they wanted to have that beautiful view but they made sure it wasn't built on wooden sticks they made gigantic foundations in stone this is the reason I can like ball back is is you know seismically active but definitely not as much as things like Cusco where the earth shakes every five seconds and the Inca civilization built for this.

They built gigantically weird-shaped stones in odd shapes, whereby we know they withstand earthquakes. Is that why they had things that were curvy and they fit in like jigsaw puzzles? Absolutely, because what happens, the Sherman Oaks was an epicenter in, I think, the 94 earthquake. And basically two plates kind of like made houses jump up. And then from the other side, they basically gave them a different seller, so to speak. And so because we built so linearly, you know, houses, I mean, I'm slightly exaggerating here, jump up and jump down again. But because all of these stones kind of go, okay, we can't jump up, we can't jump down.

We're stuck because we're so wedged with these other stones. They're earthquake resistant. And our ancestors understood this. They employed this. But somehow, you know, despite some of these billion dollar, well, okay, slight exaggeration, million dollar houses in Los Angeles, the architects

don't seem too willing to borrow from our Inca ancestors when it comes to design. Plan the obsolescence. That's what it is. No one's making a house that's going to live for 10,000 years. They just want a house that's good for like a couple of hundred, insulate it, make it eco. How long are your solar panels good for? Is a solar panel even good for 100 years?

I think they're mostly outdated by the ability to get like they want to be replaced because they constantly keep doing better ones, which get more power out of them. Now, you wrote a rebuttal to the dude who made that video, which was the Chris White, who made the it was ancient aliens debunked. And essentially he pointed out errors that existed on the television show and then you made you you rebutted his his video what did you feel like was wrong about his video well there's there's several things wrong and you know one of the things is that he even though he's not your traditional skeptic he does betray some of those things he will go and read something on the internet and will say well on the internet and will say, well, on the internet, I found something else.

And some of the sites he references, like Rational Wiki, which is basically a skeptic Wikipedia. And he'll kind of like say, look, this guy shows you how, when it comes to the people in Mohenjo-Daro, how they were you know like on ancient aliens it is said that these people are lying hand in hand in the middle of um

of the street and this guy says that they were buried well this guy's article is actually online and this guy actually says when they were doing initial excavations in Mohenjo-Daro, they were done so crappily that you don't know. It is open for speculation. They might have died in the street. They might have been buried. Nobody knows. And this guy says that himself.

He then goes on to basically say, but in my opinion, they were buried. So he's basically siding purposely towards the skeptical thing when it's still an open point of contention. Yeah, I mean, on a number of occasions, I agree with him. Like, you know, there are certain things which people hold dearly and will say on camera, which I don't agree with. You're fucked whenever Giorgio goes, when Giorgio Suclos goes, is it possible?

Oh, you motherfucker, you got me. Because as soon as he does that, dude, it's fucking, everything's aliens. Is it possible? But I mean, that's like, you know, my biggest beef with him is to do with Crystal Skulls. Like, he makes it appear as if,

he comes up with this name and says like anna mitchell hedges never you know she always tried to sell the crystal skull and she never allowed for scientific dating and i said like well she did she gave it to hewlett packard and she gave it to the british museum and he then comes back and says like well i know about the british museum uh. In 1936, I even mentioned it in the documentary. And he kind of goes, no, you're actually referring to, you yourself claim to have read this article. In this article, there is a photograph of Anna Mitchell Hedges in the British Museum when she was doing the dating. By the way, there's an entire video of it,

which the BBC made in 1980 or 81. And you can see Mitchell Hedges in the British Museum with the British Museum skull and her skull there. I'm talking about the 1980s dating. But that is, you know, Chris is, again, he's not your typical skeptic, but he does this thing of like, I have found something on the internet

which says something differently. Therefore, you have to be wrong. But there was definitely a lot of shit that he was right about, right? There was a lot of errors that he pointed out. He makes some clever misdirections though with some of it as well. Kind of like, yes, Giorgio is wrong when he says diorite or whatever the other one is. But it doesn't change anything to do with the density or the hardness of that material. He also comes up with kind of like what I think is sometimes the misdirection of like,

he'll kind of say like, why is David Hatcher Childress talking about levitation when it comes to the Easter Island statues when they could have been put on wooden rollers? Well, the reason why David Atchichildris is talking about it is because the locals say that they walked, that they were floated into space. So Ancient Aliens is discussing the possibility, whether it is possible, that there was such a thing as levitation. It's a question mark. You know, we're exploring the possibility that our ancestors might be wrong. Our ancestors actually don't say that they were put on wooden rollers. They might have been put on wooden rollers. That might have happened. Our ancestors might have complained and speculated and said like, oh, well, wooden rollers sound so boring. Let's say they levitated. But it is about

the exploration of the possibility. And this is what ancient aliens does. It's saying, should we take our ancestors' word for it? Is this possible? And then, you know, it's up to the viewer to decide whether or not it's the case. But the biggest beef I have with Chris White is the following. And it is very clever what he does. He says, no matter how many mistakes I have found, by default, I know that the ancient alien theory is wrong. So even if he finds nothing wrong with the ancient alien series, he basically says in his opening and in his closing, I know that this is impossible. And he does a very clever trick as well which is basically he says you know okay I found one evidence

here I have found sorry one error here I have found another error there the third one there great that's 50 hours of television you know if you find 50 errors in there it's quite good but he sees every evidence as evidence of

somehow there's a vast conspiracy by us to misdirect him. Well, there's certainly, let's be honest, there's certainly a confirmation bias that's involved with almost every fringe subject, whether it's ghosts or Bigfoot or aliens. There is an unquestionable confirmation bias where people who really want to believe in it find ways to believe in it. But it's the same with traditional archaeologists. Dr. Zahi Hawass will find clues in there to kind of like explain certain things away as well. It works on both sides.

You're totally right. I absolutely agree, especially when Mr. Hawass, he's famous for it. He's funny. Isn't he in trouble? Isn't he going to go to jail? He cannot leave the country. What happened? what did he do wrong some corruption shit yes basically certain money disappeared in whoopsies who would have thought that guy was crooked most people are like what

what dorks are these guys they're dude they're they're doing they're gossiping about egyptologists certain guys bitchyy Egyptologists. I thought that what he did was a very brilliant take on mistakes, and he was very time-consuming and tedious, and I thought it was very well done, and I can't wait to talk to him about it. But my problem is that there's still a lot of craziness to that stuff. Saying that they had done and moved larger stones before and that somehow or another,

because it was a part of a foundation wall, wasn't that? That it wasn't so impressive, like the Baalbek. That's kind of crazy. There was a lot of where you're trying to find some reason why it's not fantastic. And it's obviously fantastic.

Yeah. And I mean, you know, what I, and this is probably a sign of our times, but Ancient Aliens is a TV show. It tries to put forward into the public mind, is this possible? Here's a bit of graphic information for you. graphic information for you. And by default, the ancient aliens, the series is not identified with whether or not we have been visited by the,

in the past. I mean, the best evidence was put forward by the likes of Carl Sagan and Joseph Shofsky in the, in 19, late 1970s, Carl Sagan, who was very much a skeptic. He didn't believe in anything like crop circles and all that stuff.

And he basically said, of paleocontact, whether we have been visited in the past or not, the best example is Oannes, this creature which comes out of the sea and teaches man the arts of civilization and various other things. Oannes disappeared. Another creature came

up, basically to Cuff, where he began to instruct the people. What is this from? This is from Babylonia. It is actually a Babylonian rendering of a Sumerian mythology as well. So basically the Babylonians were repeating what they got from the Sumerians. And basically they were saying that from the Persian Gulf thousands of years ago, it's not too clear when precisely,

this creature came. He came out of the sea. He took off his kind of like fishy outside and underneath was a human hat. And he began to instruct our ancestors on the arts of architecture, mathematics and art and all of these sciences. Maybe that's a good way for aliens to go in the water first and pop out hey we were here all along yeah it's better than coming from the sky you know you're like i was right behind this tree instead of i came here from another fucking galaxy i'm a mermaid um but i mean you know in the eyes of carl sagan and many uh people who are looking into this from a from a scientific point of view this is kind of like amongst the

best evidence that we might have potentially been visited by ancient aliens. Chris White doesn't even mention it. And it's kind of like, okay, you should really try to negate this if you want to pretend that you have completely destroyed the ancient alien theory. You know, you can try and attack the ancient aliens, the series, but as long as you don try and attack the ancient aliens, the series, but

as long as you don't go for the best evidence, like the Juana story, and you do it on a scientific level, you kind of like, you know, you argue why Carl Sagan thought this was interesting, why other scientists thought this was interesting, then really you can make a documentary

and pretend that you have completely destroyed the possibility that we were ever visited in the past by ancient aliens. But you haven't. You can just do that at the end of your documentary. And you're no better or worse than the narrator on Ancient Aliens series who says, could we have been visited by aliens in the past? It's on the same level. I see what you're saying. He's not considering all the evidence.

He's trying to prove a point. And there is a possibility no matter how many mistakes you guys make, there's still a possibility that the human race has been visited and in fact maybe even engineered by advanced life forms. It's absolutely

a possibility. When it comes to such things as astrobiology, it's one of my great passions. In the ancient alien question, I write about it, and I thought when I was going to write that chapter, it was going to be boring. It was going to be at some point in the past, there were some scientists who thought that life came from elsewhere in the universe, riding on a comet or a meteorite, and then it crashed here, and then all of a sudden we had life on planet Earth. And it's so different.

What we have right now are astrobiologists who are working for NASA who are saying that the building blocks of life are created spontaneously in interstellar space, that as a result, life like us is potentially everywhere in the universe. They have been saying that viruses are more than likely, some of them more than likely are coming from outer space as well. Did you see that one, I think it was from Harvard, the astronomer that said that it's very unlikely that we'll ever find life

and there is probably no life anywhere but Earth because we've looked at 500 planets and there is probably no life anywhere but Earth, because we've looked at 500 planets, and we have found no life. And I looked at that, and I said, no, no, no, no. You've looked at 501 planets, and one out of 500 has life. What did Edison say? I have found 200 ways of not making light. I mean, I just find that fascinating that someone would be so arrogant when life does exist on this one. That's so dumb. Just because you looked at 500 other planets,

if it's one out of a thousand, that's pretty amazing when you consider the hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy alone. I don't know who you're referring to, but like, you know, if he was the traditional satire guy who looks at radio astronomy kind of stuff.

NASA is abandoning that. They realize you're looking for a needle in a haystack. It's built on so many assumptions, the bandwidth where they would be able to broadcast this. NASA has basically abandoned this. They're looking at astrobiology. And they're basically saying that, you know, there is now more than substantial evidence that, indeed, life didn't originate on this planet, but that it arose somewhere else in the universe. And that it came here, this theory of panspermia, which Francis Crick, who was the guy who identified the structure, the double helix of DNA, he always said it didn't originate here, that it came from somewhere else. And NASA, guess what? The greatest astrobiologists in the world can't get published in peer-reviewed journals because the peer-reviewed journals are still so adamant that life originated on planet Earth.

So NASA is doing science by press release. They do the findings. They get them peer-reviewed amongst their peers. They know they can't get published, so they publish them on the Internet, and everybody can consult them on the Internet. And the guys who do the peer-reviewed journals, they're now saying that NASA is involved in a conspiracy to convince the world that life exists elsewhere in the universe as well.

It's kind of like, okay. It seems like shades of what Galileo had to go through, just a more advanced form of arrogance because we have more information now to back up our claims and we can make these big grandiose you know statements like well we've examined 500 planets we're pretty sure we're alone like that is so silly if you think how many fucking planets there are there this guy's examined 500 of them they think they got it fixed. You better get back to work, bitch.

You better go do your homework because that's bananas. It's so silly that you could even say that. The numbers, again, it's like we talked about how 7,000 years is impossible for people to think about. Well, that ain't shit compared to the number of stars just in this galaxy. When you start getting into just to phrase, hundreds of billions, and then think about each one may have who knows how many goddamn planets, you can't do it.

It's too crazy. It's too hard for people to. So when a guy comes out and says something like that, I'm like, are you just trying to get attention? What do you think of when you see a press release like that? Are you just trying to get attention? What do you think of when you see a press release like that? Yeah, I do see an awful lot of headline-grabbing type of people who try to... And specifically, scientists have become about this scramble for money.

We need to be in on it. And on a completely different level, this was very much in evidence with the Jesus Wife controversy, this was very much in evidence with Jesus' wife controversy, which hit like somebody found this scrap of material, which basically only could ever prove that in the 3rd century AD there were people who believed that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. And all of a sudden you have this enormous stampede of scientists saying, no, this can't be true. I have found this.

Let me do research. And they're basically kind of saying, no, this can't be true. I have found this. Let me do research. And they're basically kind of saying, give me money, and for the rest of five years, I will debate endlessly about this, and I will create this controversy about that. And it just escalates, like, you know, because it's Jesus, and we know Jesus is more than controversial, the likes of National Geographic actually pulled the initial documentary, which wasn't done by some kind of crazy person.

It was a Harvard professor who basically came up with this. But it is like, you know, like she basically is in private possession. She had made this deal with the guy that she would take all the slack. She had done the analysis. This was old. But she wasn't going to reveal who the owner was. Fine. Is that so controversial?

But then all of a sudden you have scientists saying, no, we need to know who the owner is because if we don't know who the owner is, we're going to completely not believe anything you're saying. And it's like, oh, come on. Is this kindergarten or is this academics? And unfortunately, it's kindergarten. or is this academics? And unfortunately, it's kindergarten.

It's really fascinating that at the highest levels of intelligence, the highest levels of knowledge, the place where you're actually supposed to go to get that stuff, that things are withheld just on the basis of ego, just completely on the basis. There's things that are not considered because people don't want to look ridiculous, and there's certain subjects that you considered because people don't want to look ridiculous, and there's certain subjects that you're not even allowed to study or consider because they can be bad for your career.

They can ruin your career. Just even study them. Like, you have to be a very brave person to admit to having a fascination with psychedelic drugs if you're a scientist. If you're an archaeologist and you suggest the possibility, just the possibility, that there may very well have been ancient civilizations that we're unaware of,

that immediately throws you into a certain fringe category, right? Oh, I mean, I was around John Mack, a Harvard professor of psychiatry. He created the psychiatric department at Harvard University and in 1995, he became involved with the entire UFO abduction thing. And what he was saying was he had looked at these people, and these people were reporting something which coincided with what other people

were describing as when they saw a car driving through a red light and they were describing it. He said, these people are not making this up these people are describing it as if this has reality to them this is something which they relate as a real event to me that's all he wasn't saying it was real he was basically saying everybody who i've interviewed is relating it to me in wording which suggests to me that it is something which has happened to them he went a little further than that in his second book in his second book i read both of his books in the second book he was basically relaying the message that these aliens had told these people about what

we know what the the consequences of human destruction and what we're doing to the planet it's it's all pretty fascinating stuff but what always killed me about the john mack stuff is that everything happens at night all these people are abducted at night we know during the nighttime the brain releases endogenous bursts of dimethyltryptamine which is an incredibly powerful hallucinogenic drug like why don't we get these people who have had these alien abduction experiences and introduce them to intravenous dimethyltryptamine and see if it recreates the same thing. Because if it does, then you know what you got going on. You know that you have – it doesn't mean it's not a real event.

And exactly. That's the point he was making. Well, we have this idea that something is only real if you can pick it up and weigh it. Yeah. If you have this and you can saw it in half, well, then it's real. But it's very possible that there's chemical doorways that exist and something goes through them, something returns, or the resonance in which you interface with the universe changes

because of the introduction of these alkaloids and these chemicals into the mind. Like, the resonance of the universe changes. You tune into something that doesn't exist or it doesn't exist without it. And that's something that until we consider that possibility and until we really wrap our heads around what exactly is going on there, we're ignoring a pretty profound experience.

We're not even using it as a part of the equation. We're not even throwing one of the most profound and life-altering things that can happen to a person, a psychedelic experience, a real truly profound. And we're not even introducing it into the conversation. We're pretending it doesn't exist because we don't want to look silly. It's a hallucination.

It's something which your mind makes up and therefore we can ridicule it. It's a hallucination. It's something which your mind makes up, and therefore we can ridicule it, and it's unimportant. And there are people absolutely out there who are absolutely convinced it's not real. Sure. Well, again, Richard Dawkins. Dawkins has had no psychedelic experiences and talked about how maybe you would consider doing LSD in a clinical setting.

Like, oh, this is like talking to a child like you're scared you need to you don't need to go do mushrooms fish you need a if you if richard dawkins went and did an ayahuasca ceremony or richard dawkins went and and smoked dmt he would come back with a completely different view on this whole fucking thing a brilliant brilliant mind, an incredible academic, a guy who's just so good at busting through the bullshit of religion, that, you know, especially in the waning years of his existence on this plane, like, he was really cheating his consciousness of not just crossing over at least once just to say, wow, that's available? How did I not know that was available?

But also, like, the attitude of, like, you know you know like i don't need to do that exactly so silly i i know it's it's like you know i know it doesn't exist so i don't need to do it it's like okay just say you haven't done it that's fine yeah well they have to justify it because then people will bring it up it's like you know someone who's never seen combat before and and they say, well, you don't know about war unless you've seen combat. Well, I don't need to see it. I know what's going on. The fuck you do? How could you possibly understand what happens to a person

in the grips of war if you haven't been there? It's pure speculation. You don't know. There's many, many things in this life that are like that. I think very few are as profound as the psychedelic experience as far as how alien it is to normal everyday consciousness. And I think that has to be considered when you stop and think about the idea of alien interjection, alien altering of our world.

The idea of the psychedelic experience being a gateway to some other form of consciousness or some other form of intelligence, that has to be considered. Let me tell you something that happened to me after one of my first DMT experiences. I stopped caring about UFOs. Completely stopped caring. As did Terence McKenna. I remember him in 1995. Yeah. completely stopped caring.

As did Terence McKenna. I remember him in 95. Yeah. He was at a UFO conference and he kind of like, he went down the line and he had Bud Hopkins there and Jacques Vallée and they were like physically first.

And then it came to him and said like, I can tell you, I mean, I can't do his accent. It was very specific. He said, I can tell you like, you know, I have spoken to these people. You don't have to like go around

like wondering whether or not UFOs are possible because something is possible that's a billion times crazier than that. The way I always describe DMT is mushrooms times a million plus aliens. It really is like that. So for someone to interest me with some flying space disc, I'd be like, why don't they just come down here and talk like the DMT guys do? Because the DMT experience brings you into a completely

different dimension. I just completely got bored with the idea of flying saucers. You know, like, ooh, look, it's a little light. It's spinning around in a circle. Really? Is that what that is? Who knows what the fuck that is? Who cares? It's not even doing anything.

If there's aliens and they come here and they just fucking spin around the sky and then go home, it could be like, this could be like Earth is like the high school parking lot. Remember when you're kids and there's dudes who already graduated and they come back and do donuts in the parking lot? Did you, you got an English accent, right?

What is it, Australian? What is your accent? I'm originally from Belgium and and I speak three languages, and I sound like a foreigner in all of them. Ah, that's what it is. I've lived in England for about ten years, worked in England for about ten years, and I've been partly European, partly in Los Angeles for the last four years. When in American high schools, there's this phenomenon where this leaving the nest thing, where a lot of guys, they graduate,

but they still come back to hang out. They're thought of as losers. And they usually have cool cars, because now they're work. So they'll come back, and they would do like donuts in the parking lot. So maybe that's what the aliens are doing. They're just coming back to show off.

Joy riding. Yeah, only the douchebag aliens come back. Do you buy into any... Again, but that's why there's a conspiracy, because we're covering those up exactly do you buy into uh any of the like stuff when uh you know you you you hear about uh ufos interfering with like launch commands and missiles and ufos like cutting power over military bases do you buy into any of that stuff? Have you ever seen anything that's compelling?

Well, I know somebody has written a book about it, and I read the book. And, you know, when you take UFOs as an unidentified flying object, then it is possible. Because it doesn't mean it's not earthly. Yeah, exactly. And if I was a human power, I would be interested in atomic missiles,

I think, more so than if I was an alien power. I mean, you know, if I was an alien, okay, I mean, making up science fiction scenarios here, either they say, okay, they can blow them to smithereens, let's do it. Or, well, we have this thing whereby we can pick up this nuclear device anyway in mid-flight and take it out of there. But when people tell me weird things happened on a military facility involving top-secret things and there's a UFO sighted, then to me that UFO is probably

of terrestrial origins. And there is probably a very good reason why whoever power it is, we probably blame the Russians first, but it doesn't necessarily have to be them. You know, kind of like there is a good reason why they're going to keep this secret

and they probably want to pretend. And I think to a large extent, you know, the American government has an active promotion of, hey, we are covering up certain things. Well, that whole Area 51 thing put a lot of questions

into people's minds because they denied its existence until what year was it it 94 or something like that where they want to expand its boundaries yeah and then an independence day like you know like they make a big thing about area 51 and then at the end you see like with the active participation and help of the departments of of defense and you kind of think like and you're telling me they didn't read the script yeah you're telling me that they're okay with pretending there's a fucking flying saucer tucked away back there? Yeah.

What do you think about Robert Lazar? Do you know his story? Yeah, I mean, you know, again, I think he might have seen something which people told him was alien, and I think that's a form of protection. Like, you know, if I tell you here is a light, you know, it's alien technology,

you're not going to say, oh, Philips, oh, that must be a cover-up thing, kind of like, you know. People, there are known instances and I think it was Bill Moore who found some stuff there in 1953 or 52. All of a sudden America was okay again, I think with Hungary, and there was a very important relic,

a cross of St. Stephen or something like that, which was somewhere displaced after the Second World War, and the American government was going to give it back. But it was so secretive that nobody knew on this flight what it was. And the official cargo of what was being transported was described as a UFO,

basically a crashed saucer which was being transported. They didn't want the people on board to know what it was. They said it was a crashed saucer. It wasn't. It was a relic of some saint which was being transported back to Hungary. So they just freak people out just to put a stupid story out there for disinformation. Yeah, and if you can then convince these soldiers

that there's a big cover-up, you're going to probably die if you say that when you're going to speak out about crashed saucers, these guys are going to be kept quiet. Yeah, the Robert Lazar story was so compelling because he's so fucking intelligent. saucers the robbers are going to be kept quiet yeah the robert lazar story i'm sorry the robert lazar story was so compelling because he's so fucking intelligent you know and he doesn't sound like a liar when he starts talking about the base and talking about back at reverse

engineering the aircraft and you know and how they would take them out for test flights or they couldn't exactly figure out how to work them that's fascinating shit so it is possible that it was russian or something and then that robert lazar was told that it was an alien just because they did want to admit that the russians had figured out some fucking incredible shit that we hadn't i mean you know i i agree with you on lazar i don't think he made this all up um he was told something the government might have told him the truth but i think on balance the government told him a lie. Hmm. Look at that, Robert Lazar. You just got debunked by Philip Copens.

Well, I actually think I support him because most people just say he's a liar. Yeah, that is. That's true. You are supporting him in some sort of a way. You're just letting him, giving him an out like you didn't know. That is possible. Yeah, when you see these things like stealth bombers and stuff that we know the government did design that actually look like aliens and we look like some ufo and as you point out he's an intelligent guy you know he came to these conclusions he felt that

this was alien and i'm more than willing to to give him the benefit of that i'm just saying on balance our government lies when it tells you this is something alien. When they tell you that, here's the point. If it's alien, they would probably tell the guys involved that it was terrestrial. That's a very good point. That's a very good point. Why would they tell this four-eyed motherfucker from the middle of nowhere, Albuquerque, New Mexico, wherever he's from, yeah, yeah, yeah, we got an alien. I wonder if they did tell him. I don't think his story is actually they told him. I think his story was that they didn't explain it at all.

They just told him to back engineer it. And he deduced with his own intelligence that it was an alien craft. But yeah, who knows what the fuck they're making out there, right? I mean, they have this gigantic facility out there, or at least they did. I think they've moved things now because so many people are aware of it and because of Google

Earth, I believe they believe they've moved stuff to Utah now. That's the new place where they test out crazy shit. Again, I was talking about that Roswell documentary and there's some very interesting things how and actually skeptics

in this case are great. I mean there are some great skeptics in the sense that they stick with it. They've done research for 20 years and that's great. You know, the skeptics I hate are these 24 hit and run guys. They see something, they write something, they've seen it on Google. But like, you know, like the likes of Carl Flock when it comes to Roswell,

he's got great material in there. It can be interpreted in two ways, but he's got great material. And some of can be interpreted in two ways, but he's got great material. And some of the stuff which he's also kind of like confirmed is that you had this tiny cabal of like Jesse Marcel, the base commander, which was called Blanchard. They somehow knew the likes of Barry Goldwater. And when Goldwater starts talking about,

hey, can I see what's in hangar you know 18 at Wright-Patterson it's a big scam it's a scam of these guys who are absolutely convinced that there is alien material being covered up in in Wright-Patterson who are trying to get it on the record um and who are trying to push the the government basically into kind of like coming up with an answer and the answer is like fuck off you're not allowed to say this um you know like goldwater was basically told he he was not allowed to to ask such questions the government was never going to say anything of the kind hangar 18 didn't exist and it's like okay that's interesting these people were working

behind the scenes and like the base commander spoke to gold which was trying to push something out there um and again there it's not as such evidence of the fact that something extraterrestrial landed in in roswell but that there are that there were more things happening behind the scenes than quite often are being credited what there's a clear evidence of conspiracy at roswell and one of the big pieces of evidence is the fact that they flew the wreckage out to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in two separate planes because they were worried if one of them crashed. They wanted to make sure that

they could not lose this. The amount of trucks. They separated the stuff. And they said it's really light material so it wasn't done for weight considerations. Because they claimed that it was material from a weather balloon, which is nothing. They could throw that in the back of a plane, no problem. And I mean, kind of like hanging out with Jesse Marcel and having him talk about his grandfather.

His grandfather was the chief of intelligence for Roswell. Roswell Air Force Base at that moment in time was the only airfield in the world where there was constantly an atomic bomb being sent in the sky. America wanted to have an atomic presence in the sky. As a result of that, B-52 or whatever kind of machinery went and landed at Roswell constantly. There was always one in the sky. He knew that. He had briefed people on atomic missions, of dropping nuclear bombs.

people on atomic missions of dropping nuclear bombs. At one point, he was one of five people in the world who knew where a certain bomb was going to be dropped. He was declared a national hero. When he went into Fort Worth and was going to make that announcement, he was absolutely convinced that he was going to tell the world about the existence of extraterrestrial beings. And when you see this story through his family, you see that afterwards he apparently trampled on his medals. He hated what the American government had him do. He basically killed

thousands of people by sentencing them to death, by briefing this officer where to drop an atomic bomb. And at the same level, he was absolutely convinced that what happened in Roswell was extraterrestrial and that he somehow had to say on air, live, that he was an idiot. And he hated what the American government made him do. He trampled on it. He got out of the government and basically began to repair televisions and radios to occupy his mind and and and do something else he you know but in 1947 he was a guy at the top briefed kind of level whatever he saw shook his mind it wasn't a weather balloon it's a fascinating thing to me that it all occurred, the majority of these UFO, and even the term flying saucer, it all occurred once we started fucking around with nuclear power. When we started fucking around with nuclear bombs, that's when they seemed to start arriving.

That is really fascinating to me. And if it really did exist, then it was just some sort of an isolated instance where they came down and said, all right, listen, you crazy pink monkeys, you can't do that. You can't just go fucking blowing things up with nuclear bombs. You're going to ruin your whole planet. All right? Stop. Man, that would be interesting to know. Well, and I mean, you know, again, complete speculation.

Yeah, of course. Our ancestors always say that the gods were there to help us, that they're somehow these helpers, these kind of like, we're trying to do it all by ourselves, but if we run into trouble, all of a sudden they kind of go like, okay, well, have you looked at this problem? It's like a parent looking at his child and kind of like knowing that 4 plus 4 equals 8. Yeah. But after a while you kind of go like, okay, count them on your hands. Right.

And like, you know, you get to 8 like that. while you kind of go like okay count them on your hands and like you know you get to it like that um and if this is the case if um then if we can somehow self-destruct completely more than likely to idiocy or computer failure of pushing you know whatever buttons um then you might actually say okay they they would step in there. They would stop this from happening. That's a constant theme with people, right? That somehow or another the alien overlords are going to step in and stop us at the brink of disaster. Yeah, and there is no evidence for it whatsoever. But there is logic to it.

If we are monitored. If we are the children and there is an alien intelligence who is slightly brighter than us, who means well, then they're going to look out for us. So how do you explain worldstarhiphop.com? How are they letting that happen? It's probably innocent in the larger scheme of things. In the larger scheme of things. In the great scheme of genetics moving forward to our ultimate destiny of being enlightened beings.

Or they just have chocolate fever. Could be. Philip Copens, listen, man, this book, I can't wait to read it. I just got it today, or otherwise I would have already read it because this is one of my all-time favorite subjects. And this is a fucking awesome podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

The book is called The Lost Civilization Enigma. I'm sure it's available like amazon.com it's available everywhere where books are sold and is there an e-book version of it because i just got one of those barnes and noble nooks there is an e-book version there's even an audiobook version for people who don't want to read but listen and they can hear your sultry voice they can't hear myself what not you who reads it an actor motherfucker that's bullshit dude why don't you release your own and just fucking put it out as a torrent and What? Not you? Who reads it? An actor. Motherfucker! That's bullshit, dude. Why don't you release your own and just fucking put it out as a torrent and ruin the market?

Do an Easter egg version of you. Yeah, how can... You got a great voice, man. Why didn't they let you do it? I know. It's the way these things work. Publishing companies is their idea. Some cunty, stupid-ass actor saying a bunch of shit he doesn't even know what he's talking about. God damn it, Just reading your work. They wouldn't let you do it. Nope.

We need to talk to those people. What is the public? Don't. You don't want to get in trouble. Don't get in trouble. It's a great book. It's good they give you a deal. I hope you make some money.

So, folks, go out there and buy this shit. The Lost Civilization Enigma by Philip Kopens. And philipkopens.com, I believe, is the website. Absolutely. P-H-I-L-I-P-C-O-P-E-N-S. Two Ps, ladies and gentlemen. C-O-P-P-E-N-S. And you can also find him on Twitter

under the same name, Philip Kopens. So please follow him and pay attention because this is some fascinating stuff. Like I said, I can't wait to get into this. Thank you very much for a fascinating conversation, my friend. If you ever want to come back again, we'd be more than happy to. We could do this a hundred times, I'm sure. It will be my

pleasure to return. Thank you. Please do. Please do. Thanks to Ting for sponsoring our podcast today. Go to rogan.ting.com and get your freak on, you dirty bitches. If you go to rogan.ting. And freak on means cell phone service.

Yes, and it's 50 bucks off your first Ting device. And as I said, they have a wide variety of Android phones. They even have like old school flip phones if you're one of those dudes, one of those Dana White type characters. Doesn't believe in fascinating new shit. But not me, son. I like the new stuff.

Thanks to Onnit.com. That's O-N-N-I-T. Makers of Alpha Brain. New Mood. Shroom Tech Sport. Shroom Tech Amoon. All kinds of other shit. Too much to name. dot com that's o n n i t makers of alpha brain new mood shroom tech sport shroom tech moon all kinds of other shit too much to name and we even have blend tech blenders and buffalo jerky bitches that's right we got a lot of a lot of groovy stuff so uh go and check that out and if you use the code name rogan you save yourself 10 off any of those supplements this weekend brian and tom segura who folks is one of the best fucking comics in the country right now tom segura is off any of those supplements. This weekend, Brian and Tom Segura,

who, folks, is one of the best fucking comics in the country right now. Tom Segura is hot. If you're a fan of good stand-up comedy, you're going to want to check out this weekend's shows. If you are in the Ohio area, there is Ohio Columbus on Thursday. Is that what it is?

What is it all? Columbus, I mean, sorry, Dayton on Thursday, Cincinnati on Friday, and Columbus on Saturday. If you're in Cincinnati, if you use the coupon code REDCROSS, you can get two-for-one tickets, and 10% of the proceeds go towards the hurricane victims of Oklahoma. I mean, New York. Oklahoma! And if you go to DeathSquad.tv, you have all the links to all the shows

and to buy tickets, or you can just go to brownpapertickets.com and search for Death Squad. And Brian has a bunch of new podcasts, too, that are kicking up. Yeah, we have Ian Edwards now just joined us. Yeah, I saw that. Preposterous, one of my favorite words.

That's the name of his, beautiful. And Kevin Pereira Also has a new show Called Pointless Which has put out Three awesome episodes So far Two Did he have a third

Oh third one's coming up We're supposed to have A third one today But he has a sinus infection And he's sick at home Who's that Bobcat Yeah it's going to be Bobcat But he's hopefully

Going to be rescheduled Either later this week Bobcat we wish you well brother Get better Well it's Kevin Oh Kevin has it Yeah Well Bobcat I want you you well, brother. Get better. Well, it's Kevin who has it. Oh, Kevin has it. Yeah.

Well, Bobcat, I want you to be healthy too. Okay? Kevin, you get better too, you fuck. Go get yourself some kombucha tea, son. Yeah. This weekend, Joey Diaz and I will be in San Diego at the Balboa Theater. And we're going to have a show here Wednesday night at the Ice House.

We just decided like 10 minutes ago to do it. So this Wednesday night, I'm not sure who's going to be. As soon as I get off this podcast, I'm going to call Dom Herrera and see if he's going to do it. Greg Fitzsimmons, I would love him to do it if he's going to be around because he was fucking unbelievable this weekend. And I know Callan's in town too, so that's most likely going to be the

lineup or at least part of it. We will see you guys tomorrow. Brian Callen is our guest. Then we have Peter Duesberg on Wednesday. And I'm going to do something. That's the AIDS guy, right? Yes, the AIDS guy. And we're going to do something Thursday.

And thanks to Hamilton Morris who sent me a lot of information on Duesberg and Duesberg's theories. So this is going to be a fucking awesome week. And we'll do someone on Thursday. Brian's not going to be here, but maybe it'll be me and Joey at my place. Yeah, you got to get Joey back. Yeah, for sure. All right, you fucks.

We love you. We love the shit out of you. Thanks, everybody that came out to Seattle. It was awesome. Seattle was one of the greatest shows I've ever done in my life. It was so warm. And San Francisco was amazing, too. I love – it's better north, man.

There's something about going up there. They're smarter up there. All right. Asians, I think. You have to fucking ruin it. All right, we'll see you guys tomorrow. We love you. Thanks. Thank you.