The Joe Rogan Experience - #282 - Peter Duesberg, Bryan Callen

Episode Date: November 7, 2012

Joe sits down with Peter Duesberg and Bryan Callen.

any of this stuff and how do you know i mean it's a you're talking about retroviruses that's an incredibly intense subject to be researching there's a lot involved in understanding it so understandably people rely on folks like you we rely on someone uh who has done the work and is uh is a professor and when we hear a guy like you saying that hiv doesn't cause aids that's like it's very confusing there's i'm sure your life is filled with controversy i mean what what is a an average day like for you as far as like hate mail do you get a lot of hate mail well i get a lot of mail but hate is actually a minority really there's a lot of mail, but he is actually a minority. Really? There's a lot of guys saying, gee, I always suspected something is out. Can you tell me?

Can you explain to me what should I do? Should I take antiviral drugs? I feel horrible. And I give them answers, my answers. And I tell them why I give these answers. It's not just... I give these answers. It's not just... For people who don't understand,

your argument, in a paraphrasing sort of way, is that it's illicit drug use, it's like amyl nitrate and crystal meth, and that is what's destroying the immune systems of these people, and then HIV shows up because their immune system is diminished.

Is that a fair assessment of it? You are diminished or not. It is just a chance that you might be positive or not. It's like with all microbes. You know, you can catch it or not. But, of course, if you are what they used to be, at least the first line of AIDS patients, the gay guys, they had hundreds of, in the gay liberation days, hundreds of dates.

So that's like a microbe collection. If you contact or get in contact, intimate contact, whatever contact, with lots of people, you pick up what's available on the market. You see, and that's, they were microbe collectors. So they had this microbe, but they had all others too. They had hepatitis B virus

and they had chlamydia and they had AIDS. So HIV is a virus. It's a virus. It's one of the most harmless type of viruses we know. That's why we only discovered them really well in the last 20, 30 years. So how could it be possible that

no one else believes this? That the scientific community sort of looks down on your assessment of this and what is your what's the argument? There is I think much politics behind it. You see the virus hunters as we used to be called or still called,

those who were looking for viruses, doing something or another, their pride is to find something to get the viruses to do something terrible. If they do something bad, then they are important. You know what I mean? So if they are harmless, they're not so important. Say, okay, you study your harmless viruses, tell me what else is happening. So we tried that in

the 60s and 50s. It was popular then, 70s, that viruses might cause cancer. You may have heard about this. Virus cancer program, virus cancer theory. And we tried very hard. This is why I came to this country from Germany. That was a hot item. We said, okay, virus cancer theory. And we tried very hard. This is why I came to this country from Germany. That was the whole item.

We said, okay, we find that. Well, as an example, a human papillomavirus can turn into cervical cancer, right? I mean, you can catch a virus of one type. The theory goes that if left unchecked, it grows into cervical cancer as an example, right? Is that what you're talking about? That's what they claim. But what it really does, it makes a wart. It's why it's called papilloma.

Papilloma is another word for wart. Oh, yeah, it's a wart. So it's venereal warts, right? And then they say, well, maybe 30 years later you get cancer. When they come in with a long latent period, you can already do something. Something to miss? Something.

It doesn't add up. Viruses are not slow. They are not that complicated. They infect you now. All they want to do is replicate and reproduce their own. They don't wait 10 or 20 years for something to happen. There was, wouldn't you admit, though, if you look, and I watched a lot of people die in the 80s and the 90s in New York,

and a number of them were gay. Lots of them were gay. That was the first. Still is the major. Here's what was interesting. Most of them were dying from very similar symptoms. If you went there, in fact, the majority of AIDS

and you can correct me when I'm wrong here, but the majority of AIDS patients die of starvation. It's very difficult for them to hold food, to retain food. That was really, when you went to the wards, and I did, you'd see all these AIDS patients, and they were terribly skinny. And actually what happened was, yes, the virus would destroy your immune system, and you'd be exposed to, you'd get carposis sarcoma,

which were these rare skin cancers that only old people get, and all kinds of awful diseases. I mean mean i watch people with these terrible rashes they didn't know you you're not a doctor are you i'm not a doctor at all i'm just an actor man i don't know i know nothing i was just oh yeah yeah well i've read a lot about it you know because you said you yeah yeah i've read a lot about it and and and correct me by the way i'm a layman you know so when but but i i'm i'm just i But I was going to get to a question. It's not a point of view. It's a question.

But one of the things that there was clearly in their bloodstream when you get tested for what they call HIV, they're not seeing the virus. What you get tested for and what shows up on your test is antibodies to the virus, right? That's a very important point. You know, it's just as opposite as you could get a virus, an antibody against it. That is neutralizing and stopping and killing. Exactly. That is a vaccine. That is nature's and mankind's only protection against virus is a vaccine. Made by yourself or induced by somebody. However, though, yes, the body mounts a defense with antibodies. What the theory, and I'll

just add to this, what the theory was that what happens is it's such an onslaught on your immune system, the immune system eventually gives up and cannot produce enough antibodies, your immune system gets killed. Along comes David Ho, with you, and I know you know the name. Dr. Ho. That's right. Man of the year.

Yeah, man of the year. time of man of the year. He was also man of the year once. But that was in the 30s. He's pointing to a Nazi. But having said that, doctor, there are a lot of people that took protease inhibitors, and I know them. And by the way, when they were dying, they sold all their stuff because they were going to be gone in a month. And lo and behold, protease inhibitors keep people alive. I mean, I've seen this.

So the question becomes if protease inhibitors, which, by the way, now you used to have to take, as you know, a bunch of pills. Now it's down to four or five pills a day. There are a lot of people living with HIV that the argument goes, at least from what I've seen, would have been dead and now are living very normal lives. How do you explain that? That's what they always apply. But look at the people who don't take these drugs. The World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control say there are 35 million of them, at least, on this planet.

Probably even more. They say 30% of the Africans are positive. In America, we have a million. This million, that million in American HIV positives was there in 85, is still here.

Why didn't they die out? Well, they did die, though. A lot of people died in the 80s. We have still a million. He means the number's the same.

It hasn't risen. Any million Americans, yes, 30 years later, it wouldn't be the same million, but they would be replaced in part. Well, isn't that because people were catching it more and more? They had it already.

In 1985, when it was the technical measure, one million were positive. Now, still a million are positive. And of the 30 or 40 million who never get drugs, they live exactly like they did before. Take Africa.

Africa, they said, 30% are positive. And the continent would die out. Remember that? Guess what happened? It was 400 or 500 million Africans in the 80s, end of the 80s when they first detected it there. Guess how many we have now? Black Africans.

I don't know. One billion. Still one-third of them are HIV positive. They almost tripled. That is the largest population explosion in the recorded history of mankind. Despite HIV, they should have all died away. That's what they still say in the New York Times and the journals. They don't want to hear about it that you say they're doubling and tripling.

You see it if you look for population sets. It's not the same article. Occasionally they make a little note. So protease inhibitors do not work or they are a fake drug? What do they do that's positive that's helping these people improve their health condition? I don't think anything. Nothing. Possibly it gets them into a new lifestyle.

I think you don't feel like having 10 dates or 5 dates when you're on protease inhibitors. Many of them show up and feel ill. So I don't know how it balances off. But if you look at some of the pictures, now they admitted in the San Francisco Chronicle, it was, I have several references here, I should get them out and show them to you.

They age very quickly. They have liver disease, they have heart disease, kidney disease. A lot of side effects. Oh. Very toxic side effects. Side effects is a euphemism. That's the only effect it has.

HIV positive, no drugs, anything you want to do is fine. But we have to go back to it for a second. The fact remains that in the 80s and 90s, I knew a lot of people, a lot of gay men who were dying and I watched them die very specifically. They were dying with blue splotches. They were dying because they couldn't hold down food. They were dying very slow.

Pneumonia. Pneumonia, a great deal of pneumonia i watched this we all saw it and what happened was all of us said wait a minute this is something crazy is going on here you could see it it was just droves of walking dead in in new york it was such a tragic thing you don't see that anymore in the gay community and all of them that i know are taking these drugs that seem to be wonder drugs because what they've done is kept people alive and healthy and muscular and vibrant. You just don't, in the gay community, the AIDS, HIV is no longer a death sentence. In fact, HIV isn't even something they talk about as much. And so the fact remains that you don't have an epidemic of death in the gay

community as you did in 85, 91, 92, you know, and until David Ho came along with protease inhibitors. So there's something happened there. Something had to have happened there. I mean, don't wouldn't you agree? I mean, you don't see people with carposis or coma. Hospital wards are not full of people who can't hold food down and dying of who are hiv positive right so how do we explain that well it was at least according to the records that i found and they write up yourself michael callan for example you may know that sure that's my dad's name but it's a different michael callan he, 1,500 dates, and two or three or four nights sometimes with nitride inhalants and amphetamines and cocaine

and all of these drugs. Yeah, well, you can, if you burn the candle on so many ends, then he was gone five or ten years later. That's what got him sick. Now, at least, many of them know, or at least suspect that nitrite inhalants,

the poppers causing Kaposi and wearing them out. That is somewhat known. So poppers are what cause Kaposi's sarcoma? A number of studies have directly shown the correlation. It's a carcinogen. It's a nitrite. It's an alkylating agent that goes through the blood

and causes, essentially, it's a skin and blood cancer. Brian, were your friends drug users? No, not all of them. The ones who had AIDS? No, a lot of them were just theater guys, in fact. In fact, a lot of them were theater guys who were just gay. I mean, there are a lot of examples of people who were not drug users. I mean, my God, there are a lot of children that died of AIDS

because they got it from their parents or from blood transfusions. No, no, no. Very, very few. Well, in the 80s, there were... And all of them were kids of junkie mothers who were prostitutes and junkies. Maybe, but the fact of the matter is they weren't using drugs. I guess the blood was passed on to them, right? The virus was passed on. The question of AZT.

Now, AZT is what they gave them initially. That was what they gave them when they first started. 87. Now, AZT, correct me if I'm wrong, was a cancer medication that was deemed to be too dangerous. They used it for chemotherapy, and they stopped using it because it was killing people, like quicker than the cancer. They still use it somewhat also for chemotherapy. It's not different from any other chemotherapy.

But it's a very, very brutal one. They're all brutal. They're all brutal. They're designed to be brutal. They're designed to kill human cells. Yeah, because it's a retrovirus, and a retrovirus copies. Wait a minute, human cells.

Human cells. Chemotherapy, cancer drugs are designed to kill human cells and that's what they give them they give them less and less so they die well azt isn't the idea though behind killing killing human cells especially new cells the idea that because the cancer because these are retroviruses retroviruses defined as something that creates its own rna that copies the dna of these are retroviruses, retroviruses are defined as something that creates its own RNA that copies the DNA of the cell it's invading, right? So in other words, it mimics, it creates a clone of itself, essentially.

So when you, any medicine. All viruses do that. Oh, okay. They make their look. But isn't that what a retrovirus is? Isn't that how you would define a retrovirus? It makes an RNA to convert it to a DNA and back to RNA. Exactly.

But that's. So it to DNA and back to RNA. Exactly. But that's... So it creates almost a clone of itself. So when you create a medicine that kills the virus, you're also creating a medicine that's going to kill the actual cell it's inhabiting. By the way, how much does that resemble computer viruses? I mean, computer viruses and biological viruses, at a certain point in time, you know, when you look at that, the fact that it copies the host.

Yeah. What the fuck is that? That's an invasion of code. It's amazing. Viruses are terrifying. They're terrifying. But what we've learned a lot, it seems, from these different viruses and how they react. And correct me if I'm wrong.

I know you don't probably believe in protease inhibitors. I believe that they work. But they kill the liver and they screw up your metabolism. I see. They are not quite as toxic directly as ACT or the DNA chain terminators. Okay. But now all of the antiviral treatments are cocktails of DNA chain terminators and protease inhibitors. So you get it many ways.

So, doctor, if somebody had HIV. And guess what the people who take those eventually die from? And it's not so rare they die 10, 20 years later. The dose is so that they won't die immediately. I think that would be bad even for the pharma companies. But isn't dying 20 years later better than dying six months later as HIV did? That would be better, but it was not HIV. There are millions with HIV who have nothing. They're exploding in Africa, the population. There are a million Americans.

They're still around. Half a million Europeans still around. No treatment. That's the only way to go ahead. Most Americans that are HIV positive, I believe, are getting treatment here. I mean, the ones that I know. I know only three, but I know they're getting that. That's not a lot, but I do know three people are HIV positive. One is a woman in her 60s. And they will be in that group. They will get, guess what they usually die from, these guys, long-term treatment.

Toxicity, probably, right? Well, they die from pneumonia, from lung disease, kidney disease, and heart disease. And then they get dementia. They get a chemo brain. If you have these chain terminators working in your mitochondria, you become more and more senile very early.

It is described now in the San Francisco Chronicle just a week ago. They have this AIDS institute there. They, for the first time, let it show. Maybe it's the drugs too. Everything used to be the virus. There's no question that drugs cause, these drugs are causing a lot of problems. But that was ignored for a long time.

Half of these AIDS patients, so-called HIV patients, are dying from, although we have a huge list of so-called AIDS-defining diseases, 27. That's not enough. With those drugs you cause heart disease, lung disease, pneumonia, kidney disease. That's not enough. With those drugs, you cause heart disease, lung disease, pneumonia, kidney disease. That's what they die from. Over half of them are death certificates. Now, when they die, these diseases...

But they used to die. They used to die from very quickly, and I saw it by the droves. The theater community in New York, for example... There's a disconnect, right? There's something wrong. If they were dying by the droves, and all of a sudden they got on these protease inhibitors, and the whole community became healthy. So you're saying it was like a placebo effect for the entire community,

or the whole community changed its approach to life? Is that what happened? I think the recreational truck queues went down somewhat. I don't know where it's now, but it was word of mouth that this was probably part of the problem. I mean, Michael Callen, these guys hide it themselves. They say this lifestyle is untenable. It's unquestionable. I mean, there's no question that it is a part of the problem. Everybody who does hardcore drugs like that, it

fucks your body up. Well, not only that, though. Hardcore drugs also create promiscuity. When you're doing meth, you're fucking and you're a guy with other guys. What's going on? Nothing. I'm just saying. Sex is nothing new. Sex is 3 billion years old. You can't... Have you ever seen me have sex? It's new. sex is nothing new sex is 3 billion years old you can when you see

have you ever seen me have sex it's new it looks I do I've got a very very original approach to sex

it's like interpretive dance because I subscribe to Onnit and I buy their their sex swings and he drinks that chocolate shake he goes nutty

dude I had that I had that hemp protein it's awesome oh my god that chocolate it's the best I gotta say it's amazing it's amazing that's really really Oh, my God, that chocolate. It's the best taste I've ever had. I've got to say, it's amazing. It's amazing.

That's really, really good. It's chocolate. It's chocolate. Oh, man. Yeah. So what happened to these people? There's got to be an explanation. These people are sick.

They take the protease inhibitors. They're healthy. They live. But you're saying protease inhibitors actually are toxic and very bad for the body. And they take the cocktails, usually. It's a cocktail. The typical recipient takes two chain terminators and potassium inhibitors.

So how are they getting better? They don't get better. Where's the evidence that they get better? They don't get worse as much as they did before, as fast as they did before. I don't know. They acknowledge that they never cured anybody with these drugs.

Never any cure. No, no, no. It's not cure. It's exactly like diabetes. You control the viral load. And what they do is that it used to be the viral load would be huge. And when you take the produce inhibitors, et cetera, the cocktail, it reduces the viral load to levels where your immune system does not have to work to get rid of it.

Because what it does, it creates a Teflon sort of coating, right, on the helper T cell, and the virus cannot latch on. Now, what happens, according to what I read in Scientific American, is the virus eventually starts to disguise itself, and the cell no longer puts that Teflon coating on, and it can finally latch on. You know, this is what I read. You have a different point of view.

Your name is Brian, isn't it? Yes, yes. Actor Brian, not doctor. No, you record those tapes from the establishment very well. Yes. But the reality is you said yourself about 10, 15 minutes ago, what you find in AIDS patients, even in those dying from it, is not the virus,

only antibody against it. The virus load is a new term and a new invention of the establishment to make it sound horrible, what isn't horrible, what can't even be found. It cannot be found. So what they use is the so-called polymerase chain reaction.

Have you heard about that? Kerry Mullis is the inventor of it. Lives down here, not far from here. He also questions HIV-AIDS. He also does acid. He does a little bit, yes. Cary Mullis is not your mainstream average scientist. I'd like to meet that dude.

You can get him up here. I would love to get him up here. He's in Lucca Beach. Doctor, how did you come up with. How did you arrive at this conclusion as a molecular biologist, somebody who deals with chemistry and how it reacts in the body? What was the turning point for you? You have all this science, all these scientists saying one thing. You came along and said another and continue to say another.

You know, what was it? What was the, what was the, where was the eureka moment for you? Well, as soon as I saw the papers from Gallo published, I knew that was, that was politics, not science. Well, Gallo was painted as a really nefarious character in a couple of things I've seen. He is pretty good. But I mean, the evidence was already in there. All he found was antibodies, not virus. Yeah, for you guys, Gallo was the scientist at NIH,

correct me if I'm wrong, the scientist at NIH who actually isolated what you would call the AIDS virus, the acquired immunity deficiency virus. Virus, as they named it. Yeah, syndrome, I guess, yeah. So anyway, so that virus was not to be found he had a hell of a time finding it you may remember the so-called scandal that he didn't

find it yeah he took credit for it when the french actually were the ones that isolated it so if you have a virus with a high load and killing people all you need is pick a needle and you have the virus. Viruses can only hurt you if they are biochemically active, kill their cells and are there in large numbers. When they are latent, neutralized by antibody, no action. Nothing happens biochemically.

That was my starting point. That is the situation after you neutralize a virus. If that were a cause of disease, all of us vaccinated to polio would limp around and have paralyzed legs. Well, no, because polio is a dead virus, right? No, no, they're all the same. They're all dead until they get into a cell.

Right. So dead, neutralized viruses, we all have herpes, we all have measles, we have mumps have often hepatitis once it's over it's over sometimes it comes back but it's very rare that's why we're all sitting around here otherwise the microbes would have all killed us long a time ago sure and here we see hiv was a new virus we tried well but isn't that's almost the argument with hiv what would happen was you're you're because we're always exposed to pathogens and different viruses, your immune system is always working to fight those things and does a very good job of it.

You get the immunity-acquired deficiency syndrome. You get a virus that attacks directly the immune system. Now that's why young men were getting very rare cancers that only old men get from the Mediterranean. Why young men were getting pneumonia. Why young men were getting meningitis of the brain. All of those young men who are getting it were doing dozens of drugs at once. You can even read the CDC's self-reported gay risk group analysis. They report dozens of drugs. Dozens. And there is

not one in any of these statistics that they published faithfully until 84. When the virus came, of course, we changed overnight. It was from Republican to Democrat or Catholic to Protestant. No more. Mention it. There wasn't one in any of these statistics, not even one, who didn't do any drugs.

They all were, and Michael Callen, all these guys who were in the business, or Lauritsen, or, of course, the publisher of the New York Native. So what you're blaming, then, you're blaming... Blaming, blaming. Yeah, okay, attributing...

Attributing your attributing. You're attributing... Fine, I don't mind. Yeah, okay. Attributing mortality. Are you contributing? Fine. I don't mind. Yeah, he's like, he doesn't want to offend AIDS. No, no. You're attributing the mortality rate,

the high mortality of death for people who are HIV positive to actually the amount of drugs they do and not the... Only. Only. Not sex and not the virus. No.

Sex and promiscuity and everything is possible. How is it possible? But it wasn't possible to have so many dates because we didn't have those drugs. Like in the Olympics, we break the records

or in bicycling with drugs. The same thing in the bedrooms. The drugs were not available 50 to 100 years ago. Now you can buy them on the street. Viagra. and you can work with amphetamine and with cocaine and heroin sure and all combined and you got a connection here man you know what i'm getting out of this podcast gay dudes like to party that's what i'm getting yeah that's that's let me you're a doctor if i if i so if i have h HIV It really does make sense

That gay dudes would party that hard though If you think about the fact There's no chicks down there Guys are crazy man It's just cocks and holes Cocks and holes Just blowing off as many times a day as you can And doing whatever drugs your friends have

Well they did do They did do a study on the average HIV positive guy in the 80s and he did have literally 150 partners like yeah man well think about you know when you were a young man just one weekend in vegas what it would do for your body now imagine if you lived on santa monica boulevard and you were 36 and you were just doing meth every night and getting plowed yeah you know that like really please don't say plowed um it would it would devastate your fucking t-cell son god i wish i was gay that does kill the t-cells it does okay now but okay here's the big question though of course

obviously how is it possible that every other scientist is not every other there's a few others that believe in you uh that that question the things the way you do. Cary Mullis for one. Yes, Cary Mullis for one. I mean, believe. I mean, independently, he can see. Yes. And he can afford to be open and honest. Yes. Many of them cannot. Is that what the case is? It's just an unbelievably controversial opinion. You can't say it? Look at me. I have no more graduate students. I never get a grant in 15, 20 years since I questioned HIV.

Really? I had everything. I had the lab full of graduate students. I got every grant. I was a blue-eyed boy. I got California Scientist of the Year, down here in Los Angeles, and everything. I was literally a blue-eyed boy until I questioned HIV. All of these connections were gone.

Wow. So you are the example of someone who is punished for thinking outside of the box. I'm a very good example. But let me ask you, do you have peer-reviewed research, peer-reviewed primary research to support your theory?

Because you're dealing with a lot of research on the other side, and a lot of money was put into it by a number of independent organizations that looked at the data. I was going to just show you that last paper, but anyway, I have it in the back here. Because isn't that the big question for a scientist? Sir, you want to go grab it?

Yeah, grab it. Yeah, go grab it. Sure, bring it over. No big deal. No, I mean, there are many, but this was the last one, and this was the most difficult to get published. Yeah, because censorship is almost complete.

You know, they can't be healthy being a gay dude. No, they can't. Just thinking about what it's like to be a dude and think about no one there to stop the fun. God. It just must be a step all day. Your body must be just trying imagine all day your body must be just trying to

like find zinc you know and rebuild loads my buddy said my buddy goes I can go to 24 hour fitness right now and I can see

six gorgeous guys and I can bang and not even look in their face sign me up sign me up you said you can go to Burke Williams

a bunch of girls there you can just bang I'd be like for free I'm married I can't do I'd be like for free I'm married I can't do that so yes I mean initially I published in in in the best of the journals it was in science the first debate in science which is the most popular American journal yes and then I published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences I was when I was still considered as part of the club, and then I became excommunicated, and then it becomes very difficult.

Peer review means only the establishment prevails. That is censorship by the mainstream. They list everything in that is mainstream, but they exclude everything that challenges their own investments and their own research. But that's a little unfair to scientists who are really diligently working on trying to find a cure for a lot of diseases. I mean, there are a lot of, as you know, I'm sure, and you know them, there are a lot of scientists who are independent thinkers who want to make a difference, like yourself. And it seems to me that more of those voices would have made themselves heard in the, I guess it's now 25 years that the AIDS virus has been in the news at least. So if that's the case, that's where I'm confused.

And the other disconnect again is… Try one thing. Yes. Write even a letter to the Los Angeles Times or something. You read this and you're really concerned. Can you publish the letter now if you want to get a dialogue? You will not get anything published. Nothing.

It's complete censorship. Because they believe the science has already been settled. Well, in part. But there are several journalists who interviewed me in the past on this. They did it once, not again. Even good journalists. They wrote one story, and then they were no longer invited to conferences. They called the Centers for Disease Control, or FAUCI at the NIAID,

Institute for Allergy and Infectiousness. No more answers. They were excluded. There are a lot of gay people, I think, though, if they were sitting here, would have a very strong argument for you to say, listen, I was dying. I was 85 pounds.

I'm now 170 pounds. Right, but Brian, obviously his answer would be when they were taking the protease inhibitors, they also weren't doing meth. That's his answer. In part, and one would have to see those cases. There are not so many happy faces around on these drugs. I doubt it.

No, they're toxic. I've read that they have nasty side effects. They cause you to carry lumps in your body. It's not a side effect. That is the only effect you get. You're taking a poison. So how is it? That's all it is.

Here's the question, sir. Side effects, most of them get it now when they have a low T-cell level. They are asymptomatic. They have no disease. And then they start taking these drugs. And on average, six years later, they're dead. On average. That's the statistic.

Well, you show you the guys like Magic Johnson, who is gaining weight all the time and says, I'm taking my medications. When you ask or anybody asks what he takes, you never hear an answer. My medications. It's probably Viacra and vitamin C or whatever it is. But I don't know. So if somebody has HIV, comes to you and they say, I have HIV, am I going to die? You say what?

Don't take the first thing. Don't take antiviral drugs. That's AIDS by prescription. That's exactly what you get from these drugs. What AIDS is. You kill your T-cells. You cause cancer. You kill your liver and your kidney, your heart, your brain.

Fortunately, they become retarded and they don't notice it anymore. And they smile in the camera. We are fine. So, sir, here's the question. How many people, how many scientists are working on curing HIV? How many scientists are working in the field on HIV and AIDS? 20,000, I would say. 20,000.

How do they not understand what you're saying, and how do they not see what you're saying? How is it not being discovered by all of them? Let's stay with them. How do they not understand what they are saying? For 20 years, they're developing a vaccine. Where is the vaccine? Well, it's a hard vaccine, though.

Is it hard? Yeah. Or is it not the vaccine that we need? It's vaccinating against something that doesn't cause AIDS. That's one answer. But they don't really hear that. Remember Edward Jenner? He's a British country doctor who invented vaccination in 1793.

Not in 1973, 1793. For 60 pounds that he got from somewhere, he developed the pox vaccine. It's still called pox because vacca is the cow. It was extracted from the cow and successfully protected people against cow. Was that John Stalk? No. Oh, long, long ago. That that Jonas Salk? No.

Oh, long, long ago. That was Edward Jenner. We call it still Jennerian vaccination in 1793. I think you saw the milkmaids, that they weren't getting smallpox. Yes, that's exactly the story. They were exposed to cowpox. And he said, maybe if I, and that's what happened.

And here we have the scientists, the most advanced and most sophisticated and by far the most expensive scientific establishment that has ever lived on this planet, the American scientists who get $10 to $20 billion a year to research AIDS. And they keep saying, oh, we need a vaccine. All we do is vaccine. Edward Shannon did it for £60 in one season, 200 years ago. Now they're messing around with it 25 years.

What do they have? Niente. So nothing. And why could? But viruses are all very different, right? Well, not so different. Smallpox being a... No, they have, as you said, Zoc and all others,

we have against virtually all viruses, we have vaccines. And we have a perfect one against HIV. That's what the test measures. There's antibody, no virus. Exactly because it works so well. That's why Gallo, the nation's leading AIDS researcher, had to steal it from France because he couldn't get it out of people who had antibody against the virus.

But they don't ask those basic questions. What did the French find? What was the French discovery? Because Gallo stole the French people's research and took credit for it. What would the French scientists say that they were the ones who actually isolated the HIV virus? You would have never heard of them without Gallo and the US propaganda behind it. They said it could be, every virologist said, oh, my virus could cause cancer. Oh, publish me.

I'm famous and I get money. And I'm promising something horrible if you don't fund me. So that's what they all did. And Gallo was one of the most successful ones. He was just at the right time when the AIDS epidemic came up. I have the virus. Vaccines coming soon. Trucks will be coming soon.

Here I am. Well, his colleague in France got the Nobel Prize, but he didn't because they caught him. So is that how it works? Like he invents, he starts working on some sort of a cure and then funds roll in. He starts up a business of working to develop a vaccine. You get grants. When you work at NIH.

How much money is involved in something like that? Oh, that's millions and millions. It's an annual budget over $10 billion. You have a team of people working. Over $10 billion for AIDS and all. It's almost as much as for cancer. Okay, so... Because the gay voice is strong.

But what you're saying is it's an industry and there's no way to stop this industry with the truth. That these people are not willing to look at the truth because there's a massive amount of money that's being spent perpetrating a lie. That's what you're saying? When the journalist or any scientist really speaks up and threatens their income, they say immediately, oh, Carrie Marley is a junkie, crazy guy, Dysberg, Nazi, what have you,

mass murderer. And so they have immediately this kind of pulling under. But we did have an epidemic. I mean, we did have an AIDS epidemic. I remember people dying. I think he's saying that it coincides with drug epidemics. But people are still doing drugs. Well, you remember the crack epidemic, man?

Remember this very distinct thing that happened when crack was introduced? Yeah, we've had epidemics. But the whole use, the large-scale use of recreational drugs wasn't known in America until after Vietnam. Then they came back somewhat more open to the rest of the world. As before, familiarized with drugs from Vietnam and disillusioned by, quote, losing the war, whatever it was. And then all of a sudden the drug epidemic picked up.

The Beatles did it, the Yellow Submarine did it. Everybody liked it. But let me... Hold on, hold on. Yeah, and that was the price for it. It was coming in the 70s and in the 80s. And all of a sudden, we have AIDS. It's all drug-related.

If it were sexually transmitted transits, we have 4.5 million heterosexually produced babies in this country. Dr. Duisburg, if you can, just try to talk into the microphone. There's lots of heterosexual sex. What does the virus have against girls or boys? I'll tell you, actually. There's an answer.

What? In Africa, it was a heterosexual disease. In the United States and Europe, it never happened. Now, there's a lecture about it but they couldn't figure it out. What was it? Was it a secondary infection? Was it poor health care? Why in the world were straight men in Africa getting it

by the droves? And the cases for straight men in the United States are vanishing unless you're talking about gay men and intravenous drug users. That's what I'm saying. That's right. Now, hold on. Here's what they found. It correlates exactly with drugs not with sex and not with virus. Well, here's what I read and maybe That's right. Now, hold on. Here's what they found. It correlates exactly with drugs, not with sex and not with virus. Well, here's what I read, and maybe you can help me with this.

Juan Enriquez, who is a venture capitalist who invests in different kinds of medical technology and deals with all this stuff, he said what they found was there was a genetic variation in all people of northern European extraction who had survived the Black Plague. That particular genetic variation makes you very resistant to the hiv virus the only way a straight man gets hiv is if it's pushed into his bloodstream with a needle or uh through anal sex or something like that or blood transfusion having regular vaginal sex with a woman and in fact even gay men who are having doing the actual fucking doing the actual sex as opposed to getting it were the ones that survived the epidemic so there is no question that that that and however in africa in sub-saharan africa they did not go

through the bubonic plagues that that we did in europe they did not develop that variation in their genes and that's why they that variation that variation in their genes and that's why that variation is missing in their genetic structure. That's why they get AIDS. And that was the argument. Any genetic explanation like that is at hoc or suspicious. How come

the genes are different between homosexuals and heterosexuals? That is not caliber. They would have different genes. They're having different sex though. Dr. Duisburg, I'm sorry to keep reminding you. Could you talk into the microphone?

People really want to hear you. They're complaining online. Any of the genetic arguments is very suspicious. That in a population, the homosexuals would have genes that are different from the heterosexuals. Well, I think that's not what he's saying what he's saying is that

there's certain people that got it through heterosexual means like they didn't have this genetic variation but they don't, in America and in Europe and nowhere in the whole planet even is no heterosexual it's epidemic, they predicted it

and warned and scared everybody it's going to spread is no heterosexual, it's epidemic. They predicted it and warned and scared everybody. It's going to spread into heterosexuals. All of a sudden, even mainstream, conservative, Republican, whatever it is,

were interested. Even Ronald, John Wayne talked to Ronald Reagan about it. We have to do something, otherwise our kids are going to come home

with AIDS. And nothing ever happened. And they are as sexiest or promiscuous as they used to be. They produce four to five... Probably more, those dirty bitches. Yeah, that's actually... And they produce four to five million babies a year, and none of them get AIDS.

No, but that wasn't altogether what I was saying. One of the explanations for mainstream science would be the reason gay men get AIDS is because there's something called high-risk, low-risk behavior. When you have unprotected anal sex with another man, you are... Say it again. You are... Those capillaries, there are micro tears, and the semen that carries the virus can actually push it into the bloodstream. That would be why anal sex is more... Yeah, but wait a minute. Nowadays, since you get por porno movies you can get it on your

laptop maybe you can you can get AIDS on your laptop hey come on this is a serious discussion it is very serious but you see the girls getting in this code just as much as the boys

and some of them make a profession out of it. Some of them say the porn star. It's a tough one. That's what I call my favorite kind of girl. And where, yeah, porn star isn't professional. It's a tough way to make a living. And you're saying they don't get AIDS, right?

Respect. No, nowhere. That's another prediction of the NIH that failed. All the prostitutes will be the first ones. Did you hear what just got passed? Did you hear the new laws that just got passed? Measure B. Did it get passed? Yeah. The last I heard...

No more sex. No more porn. We're all going to Colorado. No more porn is going to have to start doing in Nevada. Yeah, what they're doing is they're saying you have to wear condoms, dental dams, men and women, dental dams during oral sex

what's even worse is that there's even something in there that says that if you're a husband and wife and you just want to broadcast sex on a webcam you have to wear a condom in your own house you have to have a permit that costs like a lot of money dirty bitches they did it and you know who did it the population did it

it's not the government we voted that in that's shame on us they also voted that genetically modified foods thing in. Didn't that get voted in? I'm a fan of that person. What is it? They don't have to be labeled? Yeah, I'm a fan of genetically modified foods.

Right, but why are you a fan of them not being labeled? Yeah, that's crazy. How did that pass? That is the dumbest... They should have to label everything. You should always have to know. And it costs no more money. It's a money thing thing it's a monsanto thing yeah they're they're buying it out those sons of bitches so uh dr duisburg how many how many people like on a

when when you have these conversations and you you talk about this connection how many people think you're crazy yeah i i'm not so sure I'm not so sure that I'm crazy. They just don't want to. It's just too hot a topic. They don't want to face it. See, my colleagues, my former friends, Jay Levy or Harold Ramos, Fauci was another friend, but Gallo, we were close friends. We met several times a year at conferences and drank and had booze and what have you

well they cannot talk about it with me they realize they have no good answers they would have long published it I would be finished I would not just be excommunicated politically and not get students they would prove me wrong in writing in a scientific paper

that would be the end of my talking. Say, look, you're disproved. There it is. You can't answer it. But they can't. That's the trouble. That's why it goes on and on. They have no answers why they can't make a vaccine.

They have no answers why the girls, heterosexuals don't get it. They have no answers why they can't find the virus and you're dying from it. That is a complete paradox in biology, in chemistry, in fact, in science. How can you get a fatal consequence from a non-detectable cause? That is absolutely illogical. Isn't that cancer, though, sir? Cancer? My God, you look at the cancer cell, you'll see a lot.

That's what I'm doing now. You have 60 60 70 chromosomes in there where there should be 46 there is a big cause okay there you can see they make protein and rna it's a difference what what is it can you talk a little bit about cancer since you work on it well i want to stick to this but i wanted to tell you so they they see then more than that hardly any scientist wants to have a name in a field as naive or romantic as I was and say, okay, we have to go the other way.

This doesn't add up. They have made their career. They have their professor. They get their merit increases. They consult companies or own companies, and they have to tell their postdocs and students and their companies, sorry, we're on the wrong path. We have started all over. Hardly anybody is able to make that.

Their wives would beat them up or their kids would say, where's the money? They would lose their jobs or their investments. They piss away their investments. If this is true, how is it that you're the only one who's talking about this? Yeah, not the only one, but I'm a good friend of mine, a publisher from New York, Harvey Bialy, a scientist also.

He was editor of Nature Biotechnology. He wrote this book about me, How to Unbutter Your Own Bread. How to Unbutter Your Own Bread. Wow, how mean. Well, no, I mean, he meant it well. He explained it, how it happened, just for being

quote, an ethical scientist, to say what the science tells me. Have you debated any other scientists about this subject? Yeah, I have a couple of times. In the beginning, even in the journal Science. There's a debate between me and Gallo, Plattner, and Tammin. They call it the policy forum.

My part was called HIV is not causing AIDS. It was, and then we could answer to each other once around. Then they wrote one more editorial about it, and then they don't want to write about it anymore. So that's the only time you've ever sat down with another scientist and had a formal debate about this? No, it's not the only time. There was other occasions, yeah. But yeah.

What do they say? What is their response? And what's wrong with their response? What is their response to your arguments that it's all drug related and that having something that we can only detect it in the form of an antibody and saying that that's what's killing you is ridiculous. Well, they say this work doesn't know indirect mechanisms

and indirect causes and co-factors. And once I'm gone, they don't mention the co-factors anymore. Co-factors like drugs? Yeah. Well, even drugs. Lifestyle choice, lack of sleep. Yeah. But, doctor, there are a lot of doctors who are like medical doctors that you go to when you have HIV and you take your drugs and they're in the trenches.

They've been there a long time and they are involved in prescribing you a certain amount of medication to keep, quote unquote, your viral load to a manageable level. These are people in the trenches that that watch people die and are now keeping people alive uh with those drugs so i'm just curious as to all those doctors that are doing that in africa in europe and in the united states in east asia etc and i know there's a lot of money there, but they are doing that work. It seems to me that if it wasn't working, if they hadn't seen direct results, and I'm talking about non-drug users,

if they hadn't seen direct results, say, in Africa with heterosexual men when they were dying and now they are dying, it seems to me a lot of people would say, hey, guys, people are still dying at the same rate or whatever, regardless of lifestyle change. People stick to their a lot of people would say, hey guys, people are still dying at the same rate or whatever, regardless of lifestyle change. People stick to their lifestyle for the most part.

Now in America, it's a minimal amount of AIDS cases, like 30,000, 40,000 a year. And guess who they are? Two-thirds are male homosexuals and a third are junkies. And that is because of a virus. It's a small, it's not by the tropes, as you say,

it's a very small population. It's always the same risk groups, and they get these drugs. So if you are a real scientist, rather than the doctor prescribing pills and doing what all other doctors do and following what they call standard of care, if you violate and say, I don't prescribe anything, they come and sue you sometimes.

So anyway, so they prescribe but what you need to prove that these drugs are doing these things in animals or in humans you need to run a controlled study a truly controlled study you have to have let's say here I identify 100

HIV positive men gay or heterosexual, whatever they are, and I have another 100 matched, same age, same lifestyle, maybe soldiers of the U.S. Army. They have that too, and they are not treated. And then we'll see who is doing better. Then you find out. But when you use street trucks and this truck and that truck and the counter truck and drop them and don't comply and drop them and don't

comply and throw them down the toilet, all of these stories are very well known. You can only guess. And they say, okay, my truck works. It costs $1,000 a month. Very good business. It's lasting three or four or five years until they're dead. That's what the truck companies love. A little longer than that. I mean, people are living

longer. On average, about five years. But they don't tell you that. Purge inhibitors? On trucks. I know people people are living longer. On average, about five years. But they don't tell you that. Oh, the Paris inhibitors? On drugs. I know people who are living now 15 years. They always know somebody like Magic Johnson. He's gaining weight in 20 years. But I saw a lot of people die in six months and seven months in the 80s and 90s. And I've never seen that.

Well, even now they do, but only when they faithfully take those drugs. But they often say they do, and then they don't. A microphone. only when they faithfully take those drugs. But they often say they do, and then they don't. A microphone. So in order to prove what you're saying and what they tell you, all drugs work.

They love to sell those drugs. It's real good business. $1,000 a month, that's what, for the rest of your life, that's exactly what drug companies love best. It's like chemotherapy. It's also $1,000 a month, except it doesn't usually last that long. But what you need in order to prove it works, and they have a hell of a time within cancer.

They have never done it with AIDS. They did it once in 87, and the results were very devastating to people on AZT. 20% of them were dying while they're treating them. And they could only...

AZT wasn't effective. Well, they said, that's what they admit now. But for years, they said, oh, you're a denialist. That's one of the words they used. Well, I remember with AZT,

it was always like you took it and you just hoped that it kept you alive a little longer. AZT is poison. Well, then they give these compensatory treatments. Blood transfusions, many of them,

because their bone marrow was gone from AZT. Yeah, they look really good. And then two years later, they're gone. Yeah, well, you know, everything takes a while to develop. But ask your doctor, show me a trial, a scientific study, where you have 100 treated and 100 untreated. And show me that the treated ones live longer. Even one day longer.

I would like to see one. I think there's a lot of evidence to that, but I don't have it on me. None. There's no such study, except the early one with ACT, which you already pushed aside a little bit because you heard it so often.

Oh, yeah, first of all, we have much improved ACT now. Well, ACT is still terminating DNA synthesis. You use less now because you don't want to die during the trial as they did first. But you're explaining it as if it's like a conspiracy, like they all are aware of it and they're poisoning them less to keep them around longer, but they know they're selling them poison. I don't know whether they're all are aware of it and they're poisoning them less to keep them around longer, but they know they're selling them poison. I don't know whether they're all totally aware of it. How is it? Well, someone has to

be aware of it to consciously lower the dose to keep people alive longer, right? Yeah, I don't know how conscious. You hear it from all sides, you believe it, you know? I think there were a lot of good soldiers in Stalingrad, they could have said, look, let's stop this war and we go home.

So it takes a while to change your mind. They took 1945 and another 10 million. So you think that all these scientists are aware of this issue, that all these people who are working in the HIV AIDS field are in denial? In denial, I don't like to use these words. They're not that clear-headed that they would be in denial. They have heard it so many times. HIV is so

terrible, even ACT, a drug designed to kill human cells, is a picnic compared to what HIV would do with you. But then you ask them, what about the 30% of Africans who are said to be HIV positive, 40 or whatever, high percentage, why aren't they dying?

Well, it's a different strain comes the story. They had plague for 500 years ago and whatever. This Bucci drove by and brought something or what have you. They might tell you that they are dying and now they're not because of the drugs. That's what they would tell you, right? They don't have that many drugs in Africa. Not even Bill Gates and Boris Wellcome could have treated so many people and make them triplicate. They are now from 450 to 1.2 billion.

That's pretty good for a virus. billion. That's pretty good for a virus. In other words, Africa's population is growing. Exploding. Growing is actually putting it very mildly. From 450 to over a billion. The only other explanation is they're making

super AIDS and they're going to bring it over here. Yeah. And it doesn't kill. Zombies, right? It doesn't kill them. It's actually not a different strain they found. it's a super AIDS stop your dirty lies it's a super AIDS that's going to kill us but not them is there a similarity to you between

what your research with cancer and with AIDS yeah sure it came from the same starting point I mentioned briefly when I first came the hot thing in cancer research was to find cancer viruses that's where i came we were trying to find the virus and the retroviruses were the top of the research sure cancer was a retrovirus i remember reading that yeah the

retrovirus was the the most popular and that's why i came in studying that because it wasn't killing cells unlike most viruses like polio and flu and measles and mumps these replicate cells they kill the cells and replicate a dying cell and then kill more

but retroviruses have a strategy they essentially move into it like your in-laws would move into your house and they stay part of the cell and essentially attacks it a little bit but very little they're mooches

moochy cells Joe seriously they don't do much and then they're neutralized by antibodies. You cannot even find them anymore. When you look hard enough, like with some acids we use now, viral load and all this bullshit, expressions for finding a needle in a haystack,

they don't do anything in any cells. And they're ubiquitous. You find them in cows. You find them in dogs. You find them in blacks. You find them in whites. You find them in monkeys. What kills you with cancer, then?

Well, cancer is a very serious different business. There, you have one cell, one, not thousands or millions infected, one that changes its chromosome. And that is possibly a result of a carcinogen or some accident. And normally, we have 46. All of our cells, 46. Then they behave well. The programs work well and the controls work well in three billion years of tuning up of life. That worked pretty well. Now you change one around and make a new species. It screws up all of these controls. It's a very different cell. A typical breast or colon or lung cancer

has 60, 70, 80 chromosomes in it instead of 46. All controls are off. All. Do you believe in chemotherapy? Yeah. Yes. But there you have side effects.

That's a good word for side effects. It attacks the cancer, but for sure it attacks you too because there's no chemotherapy that can tell the DNA of a species or from a cancer cell that just came out of your own DNA it cannot distinguish

so the only edge you have in chemotherapy is that the cancer is relentlessly growing. And in adults, many of your cells are not growing or it's just staying equilibrium. You don't grow anymore. You don't co-? Co-, co-, I'm sorry, my German, oh, my accent, co-, gaining in size. Grow, grow. Oh, grow.

Replicate, yeah. Replicate, okay. So that's what the chemotherapy works on, on replicating cells. And the little edge we have is your heart, your brain, your lungs even. They don't grow in adults. They replace things here and there, but they don't. The blood, the skin, the guts, they grow every day like crazy. And that's where you see the effects of chemotherapy first.

They become immune deficient. They lose hair. They lose weight. Exactly as the guys you described, when they take AZT and these drugs, they cannot keep their food anymore because the intestines are screwed up. What are your thoughts on the new age ideas of keeping the body alkaline to avoid cancer? Is that bullshit? I doubt it will work.

You don't believe in diet? No, I mean, you should. Diet is a place of... Foods rich in antioxidants, vegetables. That's good stuff. But it doesn't... Keeping the body alkaline, that doesn't really work. If you follow all the rules that my

grandmother gave me, come home early and sleep well and eat a good diet, then you're doing all you can do to avoid cancer. Do you eat meat and stuff? Yeah, but I eat less than I used to.

You don't need as much. I don't know why. Is it terrifying knowing as much? Yeah. Knowing as much as you know about viruses. Is it terrifying like being a person, like thinking about your body constantly at war with all these different invading armies

that are trying to kill it? That's what these viruses are, essentially. But we have emerged out of an ocean of microbes and viruses. That's why we're here, because we have an immune system that is totally equipped to keep them down for roughly 100 years, 80, 100 years. And then shit starts falling apart. Who dies from an infectious disease? In this society, it's hardly anything.

The last serious infectious disease epidemic was flu in 1918. At a time when we didn't have vaccines yet, we didn't know DNA and RNA and proteins yet, we didn't even know diets yet. Vaccines have been the most amazing invention that keeps us alive. Now, after World War II, where isn't

any, a little bit polio. Polio had a little... You're right though, people used to die of diphtheria, mom's whooping cough, pertussis. We died of the measles. In fact, one of the things that is always underlooked when you read history is that most people you read about in history,

including presidents, kings, peasants, nobility, all lost at least one child. That was a huge part of the character of our ancestors our very recent ancestors they had all lost at least one child child if you have children you know how how epic and how tragic that would be and how unthinkable it would be all all all most of our presidents are you know

the people that were the elite the the wealthiest, it touched everyone. That's something that we are very lucky to not have to live through for most of us. We have answers. We have answers for those pathogens, answers for those viruses, answers for those epidemics. And for the immune system. We know biochemistry. They didn't have biochemistry. They didn't know what it takes to maintain

an optimal immune system even if you eat so called junk food now you have a salad leaf there with some tomato slice but we didn't know it caused scurvy it was a vitamin C deficiency Queen Victoria had a lot of

booze and schnapps and ate some pork roast but they didn't have a banana for half a year that's right Queen Victoria had a lot of booze and schnapps and ate some pork roast, but they didn't have a banana for half a year. That's right. That's right. So that was why the mortality and the susceptibility to infectious diseases was much higher in the old days. That makes sense.

And you didn't have any antibiotics, of course, and you didn't have any anesthesia and all of these things. We've made great inroads and you give a lot of credence as we talk you give it's very interesting to hear you talk

because you're so main you're very you give a great deal of credit to a lot of mainstream science where you deviate is in one area

which is this like listening to you speak about the effective nature of chemotherapy on a virus, on cancer, for example, where you veer off is very specific. And that is in the question of does HIV cause AIDS?

So I listen to you, and you're so lucid, and you're so scientific. He's trying to say you're crazy without being me. No, no, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. What I'm saying is that what's interesting to me is that you clearly are a scientist who has immersed himself in the traditional notion of

peer-reviewed study, of double-blind study. So does this change the way you look at this argument? Not yet. Probably not, because I'm not a scientist. I don't have somebody on the other side here sitting here. I don't know anything. I've just read stuff. What do I know?

I don't even know what he's talking about. I can parrot articles. You do. You know a little bit about what you've read. I can go by my own experience where I did with my own eyes see young men die a lot by the droves. I saw them die and then I saw them get better. But how many of those young men, we didn't really get to this, how many of those young men were not doing drugs?

How many of them? I don't know. If you had to guess, any of them? A lot of men that I knew who died who were dancers and who were actors were not necessarily drug addicts, but they partied. They partied a lot. Having said that, when even those drug addicts, I mean, look, the gay community still does a lot of drugs.

They do a lot of meth. They do a lot of blow. They do a lot of stuff. There's no question. You can ask anybody. But the fact of the matter is, even with that drug use, if you go to the Abbey, if you go to these places in West Hollywood, they're not dying by the drugs the way they were in the 80s and 90s.

That's where I have a disconnect. That's where I have trouble buying your theory because it's my own. Now, you have to be careful, by the way they were in the 80s and 90s. That's where I have a disconnect. That's where I have trouble buying your theory because it's my own. Now, you have to be careful, by the way, deducing from your own experience, and I know that. Yeah, you're going to have to start doing more gay research. That's right.

My experience is very limited. It's very limited. Some leather pants. Let's go hunting. But that strikes me as where you're getting a lot of resistance because you are clearly a mainstream scientist in a lot of ways. You just happen to have this theory on, and it's interesting to me. It's actually very interesting to me that you are – it's just interesting.

I don't know enough. I think you see me correctly. You see through me. My arguments are completely conservative arguments. They say, oh, he's the lunatic and crazy guy. I'm presenting them with 100 years of science. Their rules, or our rules, if you like. I say, show me one microbe or one virus

that causes a fatal disease when it's neutralized by antibody and you don't see it making DNA and RNA and protein. That doesn't work. You know, there is no effect in biology or in chemistry without a cause. I'm sure this is going to be

a very controversial podcast. We're going to get people far smarter than us that are going to want to disagree with you. Would you be willing to come back again and have another scientist in here and talk about it and have a little debate? Alright, you dirty bitches in the scientific community. A challenge has been raised.'s been raised man i i i'm you know i'm they won't rush here i can tell you that joe brian was very excited to come here because he was like

this guy can't be right and he gets very you know very passionate about his ideas but uh he's befuddled right now you've got him befuddled yeah i am befuddled i'm befuddled because you're so you're so you're so... You give so much credit to mainstream science. You give so much credit to medicines that actually... I mean, you're talking about vaccines. You're talking about chemotherapy.

We were both secretly hoping you'd be more obviously crazy. That's right. And by the way, you're very likable. I can wear the uniform. No, no, no. Yes. You can wear the... That's even worse for your career than the AIDS thing. You just made the Nazi salute.

He actually gave it to me. He flipped it off. Like Peter Sellers. Super bad for your career. I'm still going to stick to my guns. Why? How could you do that in the face of knowledge? I'm still going to say that I believe that HIV causes AIDS.

You know what I believe? I believe I'm too stupid to understand this argument. Too unread. I'm going to go with the vast majority. Joe, you know what I just thought of when he first got here? We were talking about castles in Germany. I want to go to Germany and see the castles and stuff like that. And then I just noticed that the Nazis

holding a white castle t-shirt. You just worked that in because we weren't talking about castles in Germany. No, I was talking to the doctor earlier. I planted it. Just so you can mention white castle. That's his new thing.

Silly fuck. How dare you. Do you ever come to stand-up comedy? Do you ever watch any stand-up? I have very rarely, but I love it. There are not a lot of stand-ups that come out of Germany. They're fairly linear people. Yeah, they make good cars, though. Yeah. You guys make the shit out of some cars.

Yeah, we'll invite you to a show. Well, they had some. The Lachen Schießgesellschaft, if you know some German. They were very good in Munich and in Berlin. They wouldn't eat it on stage here. Bring that bitch to the comedy store watch him eat dicks

you ever hear Chris D'Elia you ever hear Chris D'Elia do his German guy where he talks about

how scary when a German guy threatens you it's like what are you going to do bro

you're going to hit me I have already poisoned you my friend he does

this whole amazing thing where they just show up and you're already done. Calm. I would threaten you, but I have already poisoned you, my friend. The guy just dies.

Yeah, how did the Germans get to be such calculating, not I want to say emotionless, but controlled people? How'd that happen? The most disciplined people in the world? Yeah. Are they? Not always. Without question. If you look in the world? yeah are they? not always

if you look at that war there are lots of yeah they fucked up with that war how'd that shit get away from them? the theory goes doesn't it? the theory goes that the Germans

were a very very civilized people and a very suppressive they were very oppressive oppressed

suppressed manners protocol behavior a delineation of authority is very important. And all that, keeping all of your animal in check, was what, when chaos struck, it just went, they went crazy. And that was why it was so possible to manipulate in that way. That's why it's dangerous to control people, United States government. Stop trying to control people. You're creating Nazis.

Germany was a great... The notion of a totalitarian regime, the totalitarian meaning control over the total person, not only their body, but their mind. That was a fascist Nazi notion, wasn't it? That was an idea behind that. And they're the ones who invented crystal meth. By the way, give that shit to their soldiers and they'd go nutty.

I didn't know that. Yeah, that's how the kamikazes, they talked them into slamming their fucking planes into boats and shit. They were methed out of their head. All these soldiers in Russia. I don't think so. Oh, yeah. Look it up, son. All these soldiers in Russia do that. I don't think so. Oh yeah, look it up, son. You've been wrong earlier. I bet you're wrong now too. Excuse me, sir. I've never been wrong.

He shut you down, dude, about cancer. But the German soldiers had the amphetamine in their whatever it was, in their nap sex. Yeah, well, that's really popular with soldiers. Amphetamine's in steroids too. I mean, look, if you wanted to have some people out there killing for you, you want them hopped up on fucking crazy pills and on roids.

Do you do drugs? No. I can't get them anymore. You can't get them anymore? I mean, it shows you how things have changed. In the 70s or 80s, when I was very popular, the students were much more open. Students said, Peter, try some cocaine. Oh, wow.

That's the only cocaine I ever got from the student. You got coke from students? Yeah. That's even worse than the age thing. Did you ever do acid? Did you ever try acid? No, acid I didn't. What about weed?

That I tried a couple. That didn't do much good for me. Really? You, acid I didn't. What about weed? That I tried a couple. That didn't do too much good for me. Really? You got bad weed, son. Yeah. But cocaine I liked, actually. That's hilarious. Cocaine's a lot of fun.

I'm scared of that shit. Well, it was lines, not injected. The way you just said that, too. So calm. It was lines, not injected. Like, who the fuck is injecting coke? It sounds authentic. You just said that too so calm it was lines not injected anyway like who the fuck is injecting

it sounds authentic you just said that so I want to know how you party it sounds so German it was lines we didn't inject yeah you party hard dude

but what what now let's see I asked now a student to get me some cocaine get sued I think they would

call the campus police yes they would go after you and say finally we got to speak with something out of the lab yeah yeah are you still teaching cocaine, I think they would call the campus police. Yes, they would go after you. Or an uptight bunch of fuckers. And say, finally we got to speak with something. What happened? Yeah, yeah. Are you still teaching in Berkeley?

Yeah. Oh, you do teach. What happened? But it's very limited. No graduate student came to me or they told them, they steered them away for 15 years, no grants. It's, I'm surprised that I'm still existing. You've paid a great price for your point of view.

I really sacrificed a lot of status. I told you I was one of the blue-eyed boys in the days. I was close to a Nobel for finding out the structure of the retrovirus, the genes of retrovirus. That was me. Gag, pollen, and the three genes, the nucleic acid,

the size of it. I analyzed that, the proteins of it. Wow. I analyzed that, the proteins of it. Wow. Yeah, so I was very popular, and I found an oncogene in one of them, and so on. Why didn't you keep your mouth shut about this? Yeah, see, that's... Jesus.

That's crazy, though. I know it is. Of course. But I had to follow orders. The viewer said, be honest. Yeah, yeah. Somehow, you have that feeling feeling we have done it before, following orders that just do what's politically correct.

But it was because you couldn't find the HIV virus that we couldn't actually isolate it? Is that what it was that caused you to? No, it was very clear that under those conditions, that virus, neutralized by antibody, doing whatever it's supposed to do 10 years after infection. What does that mean? A virus turns the crank in 24 hours.

If you get infected by flu or herpes or syphilis or mumps or anything at any party, well, if nothing happens in a week, every doctor will tell you you got away free. Usually, like, even swine flu takes three to seven days. But here you say okay you had some wild party ten years later you have diarrhea it's an AIDS defying disease

that's the virus well the idea right the idea is the virus incubates for a long period of time like syphilis syphilis does it shows viruses don't

they have a very small low IQ extremely low but syphilis does manifest itself as sores and then it comes back, it incubates and then it attacks the brain. Guess why it comes back. Why? When they treated

it with mercury. It's a iatrogenic, a doctor-induced disease. They give you mercury and the standard of care was one gram of mercury, the equivalent of ACT, around the turn of the century, a day for a year

to cure your syphilis. By that time you're Meshuggah. Schumann walked in the line. Nietzsche got Meshuggah and lots of people went... Meshuggah is crazy, by the way. It's a Yiddish word. It's a great word. It's a Yiddish word for crazy.

It's not even German. Is it German or is it Yiddish? They were very close. Yiddish word, I think. It's a great word. It's a Yiddish word for crazy. I love that. It's not even German. Is it German or is it Yiddish? Well, they were very close for a long time. Yiddish and German are very similar. Until the fever came. It's a great word. But until then, they did very well. I mean, I think very well together.

Yeah. So anyway, that's the tertiary syphilis. It's gone. You don't hear a word about it anymore. Well, because of penicillin, too. It's pretty effective. Or not penicillin. Syphilis was around for millions of years.

People didn't get tertiary syphilis. No venereal disease can really kill you or else we wouldn't be around. The 70s created super pussy, though. That's where things got out of hand. No, syphilis, though, history. I mean, I've read a lot of history. Syphilis was a big player in

so was tuberculosis. But you weren't dying from it. Yeah, they did. Well, maybe when the doctor came in between and gave you mercury and arsenic then sooner or later you were gone. You would have me never wear a condom, sir. So what are you saying? They were sick

and they went to the doctor and the doctor gave them something to kill them but if they didn't, they would have probably recovered? Is that what you you saying? They were sick and they went to the doctor and the doctor gave them something to kill them, but if they didn't, they would have probably recovered? Is that what you're saying? Of course. So syphilis is something that you recover from? Of course. I mean, syphilis is millions of years old.

Millions. It's like a strep throat. It hurts a couple of weeks and then you reject it. Your immune system rejects it. What about chlamydia and gonorrhea? Same thing? Well, I don't know so well about chlamydia I think chlamydia

for women can actually be sterilizing yeah it sterilizes yeah but it's not killing you no a lot of times your body fights off

yeah sooner or later you fight them all off it's a dirty trick that you get diseases from sex that is the dirtiest trick in the entire society

well microbes use everything they get but they have not been all that successful. We're exploding. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. We keep, we single out this little case. It's just what a dirty trick nature plays on you. They sit and

wait in there. Actually, Joe, Japanese created meth, by the way. Kamikazes. Yeah. You're right about that, Joe. Kamikazes used it. I still don't believe it. There, I said it. Yeah, the Germans didn't create it. The Japanese created it, and they talked to Kamikazes. Yeah. Geez, you're right about that, Joe. Kamikazes used it. I still don't believe it. There, I said it. Well, the Germans didn't create it. The Japanese created it, and they talked the kamikazes into it,

but the Germans used it, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, they were all working together. The Japanese... They were allies in those days. They were. That whole fucking kamikaze thing is one of the nuttiest things

that warfare has ever seen. Just dudes flying planes methed out of their mind into boats. It's hard for people to listen to this and not think that it's almost impossible to be true.

There could be some sort of a gigantic scandal on this larger level and it's all just about pocketing money. How many of the people that are involved in it do you think are actually aware that there's no real connection between HIV and AIDS? Is there a percentage of the people? They wouldn't say this radically. See, you co-op with this, as a scientist, as a biologist, you're a virologist.

It's hard to deny your own field. It's like the old Nazis. They still raised their arms. It's not easy to burn it out and to change it. Very few scientists are on record to question their own work, in particular when it's such a big investment. The AIDS researchers, they are favored everywhere. They get

all the money they want. They have investment papers. They have companies. They never had it so good. Never. They would be... And as long as they can... When you ask them, or I used to ask them, they always say, well, I'm not an expert on what gay lifestyle is. I'm not an expert on

epidemiology. I don't know why this virus is so slow. My field is just look at the protein or look at this drug. Very compartmentalized. I noticed that. That's an excuse often. They could easily do it, but they don't want to. They don't want to look on the side. They say, well, in my niche, I'm good. I'm accepted. I'm accepted. Are there social consequences to questioning as a lifestyle? Social? You would better believe it. Most of my friends, Jay Levy is

one of them in San Francisco, also a co-discoverer, Gallo. Montagnier a tiny bit talks to me, but I'm not invited to meetings anymore. I have not gotten any NIH grant, not one, in 20 years. That's usually the death of an experimental scientist. I got every grant I wanted for 20 years. I came in 64. For 20 years, I had

every grant. I got the best deal they had, and it's called Outstanding Science Scientist Reward, which was seven years unquestioned what I did. I used it for that. I said, since I'm supposed to do risky work, I said, look at this with HIV, there's something wrong. We won't get anywhere. And I thought they

would hug me and say, so you have done you've used it for the way but the opposite was the case. Then I couldn't, maybe this paper here, this is way, but the opposite was the case. Then I couldn't maybe... This paper here, this is a rebirth of one that was published before, two years before. AIDS, to me,

is so politically and socially charged as opposed to any other disease because of the fact that it so predominantly affects the gay community. That's part of it, but not all. From the scientists, they were on the wrong track with viruses, and I was one of them.

We tried cancer. That would have been a big thing if we had found viruses as a cause of cancer. We could have vaccinated, and indeed cancer would have been possibly under control or even eliminated. That failed. Now, here are all these luminaries, Bishop and Varmus and Baltimore, here down in Caltech, a few blocks down here. They had all Nobel Prizes for that already.

Or Tammin, with whom I debated in science. They had Nobel... Would they say, okay, my virus is not so important as I would like it to be? I finally had some... I didn't get clinical relevance with cancer but now with AIDS I finally am clinically, we have a virus that's really bad and in reality that's what they like. They, now they are important and now here

these 10,000 plus HIV AIDS researchers in these labs working for 20, 25 years on it. Have you ever heard with this most deadly virus, as in New York Times, it was the deadly virus, always the HIV. But you're leaving something out. No, wait. Let me put one more point. And it's one very big.

They're working with it for 20 years. They have no vaccine because they couldn't make one. We talked about that already. And not one of them ever came down with AIDS from this deadly virus. Neither Gallo, nor Fauci,

nor Montagnier, nor Levy, none of them. They have it in Earl Myers and mass produce it for biochemical studies. To make a vaccine, you have to mass produce virus, and then you take the proteins out and vaccinate. And for the test, you have to make antibody against it. You need tons of virus. Not one, not a technician, not a collaborator. Of these 10,000 researchers that daily work with it

have gotten a virus from the one they call. Isn't that odd? It's odd, but that could just be attributed to being very careful with a deadly virus. Extremely careful. I've seen those dudes in those crazy outfits. Extremely careful. We have about

1,000 doctors per year getting hepatitis infections from patients. Do you think they're banging their patients? No. Well, that happens too. You're leaving out something that's important, though. You're leaving out something important. They don't get it from working in tons of files.

That's very important. That's very interesting, actually. But let me just say one thing that I think we're leaving out. A great deal of the momentum for AIDS research, and the reason so much money is devoted to AIDS research

was because there was such an epidemic in the 80s and 90s with gay men who were dying, and they literally, I mean, it brought gay people out of the closet it it organized gay gay people to say listen we're dying nobody cares about us unless we get into the streets unless we really create a strong lobby for research for this disease we're not going to be here anymore and if you talk to a lot of people Michael Calum's one of the people who spearheaded this they said we have nothing to lose

We're dying. Yeah, we're dying. He's actually addressed this already though. He said this is because of illicit drug use I mean he's bringing something that a lot of people were not bringing drugs bringing something It's actually a fact the massive amount of drugs that were being used and he's correlating it to the group of people that were using them who got sick I think that's a little unfair to say that they were yeah that's what he's saying they were so now we have a we have a problem so who's right not everybody in the streets in the 80s 90s who were who were fighting and organizing and putting all their time into this we're doing drugs who are HIV positive no no no no okay but he's, and he's saying even today that the people that are testing positive for drugs, they are junkies and drug, or testing positive for HIV are junkies and drug users

primarily still. Unless you're children. In America, what did you say? What did you say? Children? Unless you're a child. Unless you're a child. Got it from his mother through a blood transfusion.

Well, children can get it from junkie parents. Or hemophiliacs who got it through a blood transfusion. What about hemophiliacs who get it through blood transfusions? Yeah, hemophiliacs. Where are the AIDS cases among hemophiliacs? I don't know. I mean, I'm just saying. Has that ever happened? Yes.

Well, they had a few. And particularly, it went up tenfold after they gave him AZT. Then they got AIDS. Well, that makes sense. But not before. Their lifespan was increasing until 87, and then it topped.

So, you're saying that in showing that they had the antibody, that their body was successfully fighting off of it, but even though they showed this antibody, that was an excuse to introduce AZT

into the system to combat this thing that was creating this antibody, and then the body dies. But a lot of people were getting, a lot of hemophilics people

were getting weird diseases, which is why they got tested in the first place. It wasn't like people were getting tested for AZT. No, no, no. They get tested because of blood transfusions all the time.

But there were a lot of people that I knew that all of a sudden were getting... My buddy, he got a huge blue thing. He was rollerblading, and he was this big strapping guy who didn't do drugs. He just had gay sex. He did not do drugs. He was a personal trainer.

And he, my buddy, was standing there, and he got a huge blue thing. And all of a sudden, my acting teacher went, that's, you've got to go to church. What about guys that don't do drugs and got AIDS? What happened there? Like his story. Where are they? That's the question.

Well, he's telling you about one. Well, did he die? My buddy died. There may be some. There may be some. Did he get on medication and die? No, no, no. You could die. died. There may be some. There may be some. Did he get on medication and die? No, no, no, no. You could die before medication. Yeah. And he died slowly and he died without. So there was no AZT, no nothing. He tried AZT. It didn't work. Okay. AZT is

poison, dude. He's sick and he tries AZT and then he dies. That still sort of like makes his case. No, it doesn't. Well, AZT is known to kill people. I mean, they stopped using it for a reason. AZT is a terrible drug. That same guy would be alive today if he had protease inhibitors because a lot of the people that I saw who were dying, who are now around. Well, if you did that and not take AZT, maybe you're right. AIDS was killing people who didn't.

Look, listen, man. I'm sorry. I watched too many people die with my own eyes. You cannot tell me... You keep saying that. You can't tell me that AZT is what caused people to die. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is,

are you completely confident in saying that you understand that person's lifestyle 100% and you know they weren't doing something that you might have not known about? I'm not completely confident about anything. Okay. Well, that's what I'm saying. But I do know that most people will tell you

who live through this and doctors who are involved in this will say what got these guys sick was obviously something they caught through either gay sex, through intravenous drug use. And by the way, they died in a very similar way

of things like wasting disease, pneumonia, carposy, sarcoma, terrible sores, all that stuff. They were dying that way. That's all I'm saying. But you see the issue in that? If someone goes and they find you when you're sick and then they start treating you when you're sick, the issue with that is how many people are HIV positive or test for the antibody but have nothing wrong with them and then do no drugs,

take no medication, and live healthy lives, and then eventually get tested again and don't show the antibody. They don't show their body's fighting it off. How often does that happen? It does happen. In Kaposi, for example, there were 50 cases per year in the U.S. long before HIV came. It went up to thousands in the ACT days. Sorry, in the Popper case, when the

Poppers became... Poppers, meaning amyl nitrates. Amyl nitrates and alkyl nitrates. And that apparently is unbelievably devastating to the immune system. It's mutagenic. Mutagenic. Carcinogenic. Carcinogenic.

Carcinogenic. I think, can I just be clear on what you're saying, actually? You might also be saying that if you get the HIV virus, which you can catch, now you have it in your system. If you're also doing things

that are weakening your immune system, like poppers and things, that's going to compromise your immune system to the point where you're going to get all these, where I suppose the HIV virus is going to create a situation where you're going to, it'll further erode your immune system and you'll get these other diseases.

That is, again, something that would be very testable, but see the CDC are not very straight or not very honorable about this. are not very straight or not very honorable about this. They never report pneumonias or Kaposi's sarcomas of HIV-free people as pneumonias sarcomas. They have an AIDS statistic when you're HIV positive. Then they report these diseases in gay men or in junkies that are not antibody positive positive are not even in the same journals. You never hear about it.

So it just automatically gets lumped into the AIDS deaths. Yeah, that's what they do. And that's a political decision? Of course. The whole disease is a political. How can you have a common cause for dementia, weight loss, fever, pneumonia, carposis, sarcoma, diarrhea,

leukemia, and whatever, wasting disease. It's 27 altogether from one cause, from one virus that doesn't do anything in the first place. Lumping them all together is nothing but a money grab. It's a mistake. Well, I mean, money, it's much more ego than money in scientists.

Really? Oh, yeah. They want to be famous and they want to be in the history books, in the textbooks. They have discovered something. Gallo would sell his mother for a Nobel Prize. But a lot of people died. A lot of people died of AIDS. A lot of people died. AZT only came about after people were dying.

Right, of course. But the people that were dying were doing drugs. That's what he's saying. I don't know if you're right. I wish I knew. I wish I knew how many people out there didn't do any drugs, lived a normal, healthy lifestyle, were gay, had sex with the wrong dude, boom, died of AIDS. That's what we had always heard.

That was the story behind AIDS was never the drug use. Until I read Spin Magazine's article in 93, I had never even heard it brought up. When I read that article about it, and you were talking about it, I was like, this is crazy. I had just taken my first HIV test. I had got health insurance, and I had taken my first HIV test,

and I was fucking shitting my pants. Me too. I took a lot of them. I was so nervous. Oh my God, I was terrified. I thought I was going to die of AIDS. No, I wasn't positive. How dare you, sir?

That's why I date porn stars. I've never done any. Yeah, I've never done any. Yeah, you do. But they do talk about high risk, low risk behavior. And yeah, you can get the HIV virus from high, quote unquote, high risk behavior, right? Versus low risk behavior. How do you catch the AIDS virus?

It's very difficult. But how would you catch it? Well, you're saying it doesn't exist. There catch the AIDS virus? It's very difficult. But how would you catch it? Well, you're saying it doesn't exist. There's no AIDS virus. So how do you say, how do you catch something? How do you catch Santa Claus? Oh, so you don't believe there is something called the HIV virus? No, you said the AIDS virus. It does exist. Yeah, but not the AIDS virus. No, AIDS is not a virus. AIDS is what- Isn't that what you just said? No, I'm sorry. HIV causes your immune system- Did I hear him say AIDS virus? Yeah, he said that. You not a virus. Isn't that what you just said? No, I'm sorry. HIV causes your immune system to get to a point. Did I hear him say AIDS virus? Yeah, he said that.

You said AIDS virus. Yeah, I did. What I meant is HIV, which can be construed as the AIDS virus because AIDS just means acquired immunity deficiency syndrome. In other words, when you can be HIV positive, you don't have full-blown AIDS until you've got all kinds of stuff going on with you. Yeah, obviously. That's what I mean.

Yeah. positive you don't have full-blown aids until you're you've got all kinds of stuff going on yeah obviously yeah but so so the the hiv virus how do since we can test for the antibodies and by the way a lot of people who test for the antibodies are what we were talking about intravenous drug users gay men uh and then of course in africa it's a heterosexual disease why how how does that happen how do they get that virus, and why don't most straighten them? There's little known about it, but, I mean, the best way to transmit it is actually transfusions. It's very difficult. It takes, on average, from the literature, hemophiliacs, for example, couples with and without,

on the average, 1,000 unprotected contacts to convert a positive to a negative. 1,000. That cannot be a normal way of application. I have to say, this is a very eye-opening discussion. I have to say that when you've been taught one thing for 25 years, as we have, and then

you come along, you're raising questions that are very interesting. We're too stupid to answer those questions, so this is the problem. No, no, it's the mental information. He and I. I don't think you are. I wouldn't say uninformed.

That's the word I'm saying. But to recognize that, the fact that this is such a touchy subject, we're going to have to try to find some scientist willing to do this. But meanwhile, we have to make sure we don't get trolled and some fucking crazy death squad fan sneaks his way in as a fake scientist. to do this. But meanwhile, we have to make sure we don't get trolled and some fucking crazy death squad fan sneaks his way in as a fake scientist. Oh, God. Don't you try it, you fucks.

Yeah, we're going to have to probably reach out. You can put people up and you can... Yeah, we're probably going to have to try to reach out and contact someone and figure out what the hell... What about a doctor of love? I don't think that's the same. What about Dr. Drew? Well, I tried Dr. Drew, man.

I brought this up to Dr. Drew about eight years ago. I've been following your work for a long time and i brought it up to dr drew a long time ago when i was like the last time i was on love line i don't even know how long ago that was but he uh dismissed it immediately without even considering it and then looked at your your your website for about five minutes and said something was wrong there and then uh you know but i i suspect he might be full of shit. Because he's full of shit about marijuana. He's always talking about marijuana being unbelievably addictive and the addictive syndromes we find to connect to the marijuana.

That's just not true. The people that show any addiction to marijuana, either they're unusual cases, extremely unusual, or it's a psychological addiction, much like gambling or masturbating or anything. So for him, as a doctor, to spout that. Most doctors study very orthodox. And by the way, I like Dr. Drew.

He's a great guy. Don't get me wrong. I just think people get an idea in their head and they rock with it. And his idea is that sobriety is the only way to go. But as a doctor and as a surgeon, when you start talking about nutrition to your colleagues and the effect... They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. It's taboo.

Yeah. The orthodoxy is, correct me if I'm wrong, is forced on you in the medical establishment. Oh, yeah. Well, not only that, the amount of nutrition information that they're given during medical school is so minimal and constantly changing. Yeah. There's constant studies that are going on. I always remember when people have a certain amount of knowledge in their field

and they don't keep up, and time goes by, 10, 20 years, you might as well be the average person on the street. You know shit from 20 years ago. Things have changed radically in 20 years. It's like jujitsu in a way, right? In a way, it is. If you look at the UFC in 93, and look at what people knew then, and then look at what people know today.

It's night and day. You can't even watch that now. I love watching it just because it's so nostalgic, but it's an unbelievable example of how things have gotten super, super complicated, super, super quickly. Dr. Duesberg, did you know that Colorado and Washington State made marijuana legal?

That's about time. Isn't it beautiful? Yeah. They stepped up yesterday. Oregon fucked up, though. Oregon, so sad for you. Portland, how dare you? How dare you let that happen?

Because Oregon's filled with a lot of white gangsters. What happened? A lot of Chael Sonnen-type dudes out there. Oh, boy. They're not down with these fucking hippies. Get to work! Go to work, hippie! I'm just kidding but oregon

didn't pass it but colorado did medical marijuana is legal i guess huh okay medical marijuana passed in massachusetts yeah but what is the federal government going to do they can still shut it down exactly well they're not going to shut down the medical marijuana programs the dea might occasionally bust people encourage people to not do it threaten land wards and stuff like that but it's really just essentially to keep their business open. What the DEA has been down to doing is they raid these medical marijuana dispensaries. They take all their weed. They take all their cash.

They say they're going to process the information, and then they never do anything. So they basically just go in and gank everybody. They gank the cash. They go in strapped with machine guns and DEA jackets. They step on people's necks. I mean, it's fucked up. It's a jacking. They go in with strapped with machine guns and dea jackets they step on people's necks i mean it's fucked up it's a jacking they go in there they take all the weed they take all them and they can by federal law they can prosecute but yet they just sort of hold that case up and they don't do anything about it and occasionally people get prosecuted when they

find out that they're doing something like there's a lot of dudes who got into the weed business that used to be in the illegal business you know and so they're doing shit shady and guys get busted you know selling mass quantities taxes on it but with the real problem is you got a bunch of guys in the dea that would probably like to go bust scumbags and probably like to actually you know make a dent in their community and they're in a situation where something is law and here's the law the law is they're doing something they have to go do it. They have to do something. It's like, until you change the law, you have law enforcement officers

that are going to be wanting to enforce the law. Period. It's a simple written thing. It's written down. Most laws are stupid as fuck. But we agree on them. We agree on them, and that's their job to enforce that shit.

Cops hate busting prostitution things. Sure they do. They hate fucking having to give people speeding tickets too. Sit there with a laser gun. That's not what they signed up to be a cop for, but it's part of the job. What we have to do is make it so that it's not part of the fucking job

and give them, you know, it's like the difference between going to a medical marijuana dispensary and stepping on some kid's neck who's a college student who just got in because he was high and took the job and going to a meth lab is a very different experience.

You drive out into the middle of fucking Palmdale, and you see a warehouse with smoke coming out of it, and you all storm the building. You might go into a bomb, man. You might go into somebody might drop something. Biker gangs are just kind of bristling with weapons. Machine guns, methed out of their head, head making shitty decisions being up for a week. Yeah, it's dangerous as fuck.

Whereas they can go to a medical marijuana dispensary and just walk in and take everybody's money and scare the shit out of them. It's not the DEA's fault. The DEA are a bunch of guys that are fucking DEA agents. Which, if you're going to have a regular society

you've got to recognize what's dangerous I mean, not a regular society but a healthy society, you've got to recognize what's dangerous. I mean, not a regular society, but a healthy society. You've got to realize what's actually dangerous and what's not. I'm not saying things should be illegal. I'm not saying you should go to jail for doing anything. But I'm saying there should be certain consequences for knowingly and willfully pushing addictive and dangerous drugs on people, like meth. There should be a social consequence for it. And that's where something like the DEA should come into play.

Sure. To restrict shit like that. To restrict. When you get that shit in the communities, it poisons people. It infects just like a disease. There should be massive amounts of resources spent trying to stop that from happening. I don't know exactly how you should do it, but having a DEA is not a bad thing. Having an agency, just like we were talking about the Fish and Game, they regulate the

wildlife population. They do a good job. And they do a great job. Yeah. There could be a way of regulating the effect of dangerous substances on the American population. Because right now, they're dealing with this whole bath salt issue, man, which is a real problem because they're just taking a drug. You got to go to the bathroom, sir?

No, I just want to get this. You wanted a what? You're going to get an article? The bath salts thing is they're taking drugs, and they just change one molecule, and they can say not for human consumption and sell it over the counter everywhere. And that's not illegal. They can't even do anything about that.

So they have to pass drugs for those and then they just keep changing what the drug is instead of calling it bath salt, call it fucking garage sand call it whatever the fuck you want as long as you say it's not for human consumption you know, lawn fertilizer decoration, make some shit up you can sell it all day long and people figure out

that it's there for you to smoke and get high and it's just like a meth with something changed on it so having a DEA is not a bad idea, having drugs People figure out that it's there for you to smoke and get high, and it's just like a meth with something changed on it. So having a DEA is not a bad idea. Having drugs like marijuana be illegal is the bad idea. That's a bad idea, yeah. It's the fucking government. Fucking government is... The problem is there's too many people,

and trying to manage 300 million people is ridiculous. And trying to manage it by having government nanny groups that stop you from doing a bunch of shit that doesn't hurt anybody. Well, now you're just going to ruin the listening to you about anything. Because I don't want to listen to you about that. The marijuana argument is one of the main reasons why people have a distrust of cops. It's not about crime stopping or anything else. It's like the idea that I could be doing something I love doing

and I've got to look out for cops. Because if I get busted doing something I love doing that hurts no one, I might wind up spending the night in a cage somewhere with a bunch of criminals. That's stupid. You can get fall down drunk in a bar and that's somehow evil. Exactly. You can throw up into a garbage barrel like many of us have done. Break a bunch of window panes. You literally poison your body

and people people applaud it dude i got so fucked up dude i threw up in the cab it's so bad for you it's so stupid and it's everywhere and nobody's complaining and there's all these stupid people working so hard keep marijuana illegal what we need to do is find jobs for those fucking people that's what we need to do is find jobs for those fucking people. That's what we need to do. We need to have a compassionate way of looking at drug legalization and one of the ways is looking at the people that are making a living from drug illegalizing.

From drugs being illegal and go after those people with positivity and figure out a way where they can make a better living. Transfer the people in the DEA that are responsible for going after marijuana and find fucking better use for them. Actually put them in some sort of a positive function

in the community instead of being monetary vampires. That's what they're doing. They're jumping it and stealing money and then sucking it into their system and nobody can ever get it back. And there's no case. Nothing ever happens.

It's nonsense. That's just like a gang stealing your stash. That's all that is. And it does affect a government's credibility. Of course it does. It does when it's marijuana, because you can't act like it's 1950 anymore. It's 2012.

Everybody can get on their phone, and they can Google something in five minutes, and read all the, well, the mic called schizophrenia. And who who who's taking it and going schizophrenic yeah there might be a schizophrenic guy who also smoked weed yeah you know i mean what are you doing are you giving 10 people fake weed and 10 people real weed what are you talking about even with all the pressure to make marijuana you know to make it a dangerous substance. They still can't find shit. But yet it's illegal.

This is an embarrassment as a human race. I think that the elections are showing that, right? In two fucking states out of 50. And one it failed. Three it was on the ballot, one it failed. The momentum is moving in that direction. It is. It has to be.

It's hard to justify. Like I always say, I'm not even a big weed smoker. It's just hard to justify how you make alcohol illegal. You're a big weed smoker. I'm a big weed smoker. You're a big weed smoker. I like the weed you give me. That's the real weed.

That's the problem also is that people are getting uneducated views on weed. People think potheads are lazy. It's because there's two different kinds of effects. There's the indica effect, which is this like sleepy, couchy effect. I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like that. I go with the sativa.

Look, if it was only indica weed, I would still smoke it every now and then when I wanted to chill, have a nice meal, hang out with my lady. You know what I mean? My lady. I said it like a black man. My lady. I did it with no irony whatsoever. Hang out with my lady.

My lady. My special lady. You know what I'm saying? But I much prefer sativas. Sativas are what you have before you have an interesting conversation or i have energy on that stuff yeah it's a different effect and it's not a lazy effect and the reason why people don't know is because we're in a terrible situation where we have a bunch of uneducated or uninformed people that are dictating policy they're looking at things in the

wrong way these things are tools all these things tools. They're there to help us. We deserve to help us. They just finally figured that out in two states. Colorado, which has always been ahead of the curve, and Washington State, which is Seattle. I did the Moore Theater this weekend. It was fucking sensational. You and I need to seriously think about where we're going to move for at least part of the year. Colorado, man. Why fuck around?

Your wife has family from there. I used to live there. I'll move back to Colorado in a heartbeat. I'll do it in a heartbeat. When the shit hits the fan, Red Band's ready. You ready to move to Colorado? Yeah. Yeah, to live there. I'll move back to Colorado in a heartbeat. I'll do it in a heartbeat. When the shit hits the fan, Red Band's ready. You ready to move to Colorado? Yeah.

Yeah, he's ready. Let's do it. He's ready. Dr. Duesberg, would you be our scientific advisor in Colorado post-apocalypse? Because when the shit hits the fan... You've got to have a scientist on staff. Well, go get some cocaine and smoke some weed. Yeah, Dr. Duesberg would be in his underwear fucking shooting guns off the roof. Yeah, baby. Duisberg would be in his underwear fucking shooting guns off the roof. Yeah, baby.

The crazy German. Listen, it's very unfortunate. Your story is a fascinating one. And Brian and I have really struggled with this. We've had this conversation without you here many times. And neither one of us is really qualified to have it. So to have you here and to talk about this crazy subject, I'm sure there's going to be

a lot of people that are responding to this in a bunch of very different ways. Are they listening now? Yeah, there's people listening now. But they wouldn't call? No, we don't want them to call. They would get crazy and just yell out Olive Garden butthole and hang up. So when would they react? Well, there's for sure a lot of Twitter people will react.

Are you on Twitter? Are you on Twitter at all? I sometimes look at it. You do? You have an account? What is it? No, I don't think I have an account. You don't?

Oh, you just read people's – we need to start you a Twitter account. Are you down with that? Fine. Brian, see if you can find him a Twitter name. There you go. What's your website? Duisberg. D-U-E-S-B-E-R-G.org. Right? Dot com.

Dot com. Did you used to be dot org? There's one org for the academy. And if people want to read more about this, is that the best resource? Duisberg on AIDS. Is that the best resource? Duesberg on AIDS.

Duesberg on AIDS, the book? No, it's a website. Oh, it's a website. DuesbergonAIDS.com. Yeah. Is there a book that you've written about any of this? Yeah, Inventing the AIDS Virus. I wanted to bring you a copy.

I sent you one. Okay. Inventing the AIDS Virus. And is that available on Amazon.com? Amazon, you can get it. You can get it from me. I signed it for you. You know, you're a very brave man.

I don't know if you're right. It sounds like you are, but I'm too stupid. And if we had a guy here who was equally bright who opposed you, I would be baffled and stuck in the middle. Yeah, we'd both be like, what? I don't, you know, it's a, but it's what you've done in this belief and that you're right is a very brave thing. And it's an interesting story,

and I've never really quite understood the whole academic process and what's involved. I've only looked at it from the outside. So to hear you describing what it's been like trying to make an argument for this and being treated in what seems to be an unscientific way. It seems to be a biased and really in a way that's actually damaging to the distribution of information. Because there should be, if you are a respected scientist, which you are, there should be some concerted effort to prove you wrong. There should be some, like, it seems like you've made enough waves with your book, you're in a prestigious enough position at the University of California,

Berkeley, that you should be considered and at least refuted by the people that continue. Instead of doing that, they've decided to ignore you completely. Yeah, or do these underhanded things. Underhanded things. Like a misconduct investigation, which is

pretty heavy stuff. When did they do that? That was one and a half years ago. Wait until they hear about the cocaine. You're doing coke with students. There goes that. I think that's... The Joe Rogan podcast will sink. We're going to sink your ship, son.

The statue of limitation should be expired now. Yeah, those were hippies, man. In the good old days. It was back when it wasn't even illegal. Do you remember the time when cocaine wasn't illegal? Do you remember that? When was that? Was that the 70s? No, it was illegal.

Coke was? It was, I think, in the 40s or 30s, 20s. In the first part of the last century, it was legal. Yeah, because you took a Coke, a Coca-Cola. Yeah, it was in Coca-Cola. You get a buzz off Coke. Yeah, that was the old days. It was in codeine, which is the syrup that Bayer made against cough.

It was made illegal in 1907. Damn, they figured out Coke was bad for you in 1907. You take it once and you're like, oh, this can't be good. Yeah, they're like, this is going to ruin the world. Because you don't do anything on coke. You just sit in your room. Is that in the U.S.? Yeah.

The U.S. government, the first effort from the U.S. government to control cocaine was the inclusion of the Pure Food and Drug Act, effective January 1st, 1907, which required the labeling of products to disclose the contents, including alcohol, morphine, opium, cocaine, heroin cocaine heroin alpha or beta so what it was essentially is saying that oh cannabis a bunch of different things but there was no labeling back then right so that was the first effort so it wasn't necessarily that they were making it illegal but did they let you know so the comprehensive drug abuse prevention and control act passed and in 1970 that's when cocaine... 1970 only? Yeah. They regulated and taxed opium and heroin in

1915, but it wasn't until 1970. So what you're saying is true that after the post-Vietnam War those people from that era forth, that's when the real drug problem started. That's when popularized it in America. And in 1970, that's when they cracked down on all the psychedelics.

That's when mushrooms and acid and everything else became legal, which is incredible. Can you think that all those years before that, even though marijuana's been illegal since the 30s, acid and mushrooms and all that shit,

they were legal until 1970. Crazy, man. Crazy. No wonder why the music was so good. Oh, man. No wonder. Acid and weed. No wonder the Beatles were in tune, man.

Yeah, yeah. Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart. Dude, they were in tune. You can't make The Doors without drugs. What was it? The White Album? Yeah. That was a crazy album, man.

Door songs like, Father, I'm going to kill you. You're not going to make that. Yeah. It also ensures you die at 27. Janis Joplin. Break my tooth to the other side. Every one of them. Oh, yeah. They fucked up. Hend Janet Joplin every one of them Hendrix Joplin

Jim Morrison certainly not good for you but neither is AIDS they died of AIDS essentially I have got to get the fuck out of here listen this podcast is over ladies and gentlemen Dr. Duisburg thank you very much sir

it's been a pleasure having you on fascinating and enlightening and you opened a lot of people's eyes is over, ladies and gentlemen. Dr. Duisburg, thank you very much, sir. It's been a pleasure having you on. Fascinating and enlightening, and you opened a lot of people's eyes and confused the shit out of a lot of others. So I'm sure we're going to, I'm hoping that we're going to get some response from a legitimate scientist who's

willing to sit down next to a zombie puppet and a mannequin with big tits, and we'll try to put this together and bring you back, and hopefully we can shed some light on this. This is very, very, very fascinating. Thank you very much. Thank you, my friend, Brian Callum,

for promoting this. Thanks, Brian. Come see me in Philadelphia. He won't talk to you about AIDS. He will only say funny shit. Thank you, sir. I'll be at Helium this Friday and Saturday. Yeah, Helium in Philly,

and Brian and crew, including Tom Segura and Tony Hinchcliffe. Doug Benson. And Doug Benson, that's right. And you'll be, where will the dates? Dayton tomorrow, Cincinnati Friday, Columbus, Ohio Saturday. All the tickets are at DeathSquad.tv. Use the coupon code REDCROSS and savers get two-for-one tickets,

and also 10% of the proceeds go to Hurricane Relief in Wisconsin. What more do you need, you dirty freaks? And this weekend, San Diego, Balboa Theater, Saturday night, me and Joey Coco Diaz, aka Mad Flavor, aka Planet Rock. We're going to have a good time, San Diego. And if

the fucking apocalypse hits, we're moments from Mexico. So let's do this. Thank you to Onnit.com. Use the code name Rogan and save yourself 10% off any and all supplements. And we'll see you fucking freaks next week. We've got a lot of fun next week lined up. And most likely we'll be in a new studio. you