The Joe Rogan Experience - #312 - Steve Rinella, Bryan Callen

Episode Date: January 14, 2013

Joe sits down with Steve Rinella and Bryan Callen.

the Joe Rogan experience it looks like everything is a go except the image are you seeing the image because all I'm seeing is that uh the opening screen Are you seeing the image? Because all I'm seeing is the opening screen. You see the image? Oh, is there like a big-ass delay? Do you see it online? Because I don't see it online.

All I see is the opening screen it looks okay from here but are you seeing it on ustream because on ustream i don't see it we'll figure this out ladies and gentlemen brian has uh a new kind of aids that he created himself in his own body so don't feel sorry for him not you i'm talking about brian my employee yes i don't know what happened to the poor boy he's got he got strep i guess apparently did he yeah he's had it before he gets it strep poor guy uh so uh heal up little buddy um he's uh he's hurting right now he can't even talk that shit's bad a lot of flu going around man yeah it's a strong that man's all the news. I didn't get a flu shot. Did you?

I figured you did. I think I remember you telling me something like that. You know, I think you have to keep your immune system strong. I think it's very, very important. But I don't necessarily know that they've got that whole flu shot thing down. Right. You know, there's a lot of talk that people actually get the flu because they take a flu shot. I've heard people say that because apparently it can make you sick or make you weak.

The CDC, what are they saying? It's 64% effective this year. 64%. Oh, really? I mean, I'm talking out of my ass. They must take a bunch of mugs, give them the flu shot, and then spit on them. Have a guy with the flu spit on them, and 64% of those guys didn't get the flu. I'm completely talking out of my ass because I don't really.

I mean, I'm sure it does some good and especially maybe for some people maybe some people could use the the boost of a vaccination yeah but i think that from what i've heard there's so many different strains and you think it's really hard for them to like to predict which strain is i think i think i think they give you a an amalgam of different ones because of that. They do. Tell what they do. Yeah, but usually there's one strong, very severe flu, whether it's swine flu or this year is supposed to be particularly severe. So I guess they inject you with a dead version, but it still can give you a fever and stuff because it's a new agent in your body.

And isn't it fucked that they all come from farms? It's like almost all of them are like the chicken flu or the swine flu. Oh, like things jumping over from livestock. That's why in Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond says that agricultural societies breathe way nastier germs because animals. Yeah. It mutates on the cowpox, smallpox. And the minute that indigenous hunter-gatherer tribes, because they were small, always moving, so epidemics couldn't really build into those environments, usually you're kind of healthy being a hunter-gatherer tribes because they were small always moving so epidemics couldn't really build into those environments usually you're kind of kind of healthy being a hunter yeah and then

that's why like here in this continent like when they pass through the arctic like siberia and stuff they came down really clean that's right because they leave their they also leave their feces they where they are and they move whereas farmers live within their shit and so that so when they would come in these these big agricultural societies not only do they have Whereas farmers live within their shit and other animal shit. Wild and in your own filth, man. So that when they would come in, these big agricultural societies, not only do they have systems of governments because they could grow more because they could grow their own food and stay in one place, but they breathe nasty germs, man.

In fact, by some accounts, the Native Americans, by the time after Cortez came back or Columbus, one of them, Columbus came and they were talking about huge populations in the Mississippi Delta and stuff. You know more about this than I do, Steve. But then when they came back in 15 years, nobody was there. It was literally – and they think that the epidemic killed off 95 percent of Native Americans. God damn. But I had my flu shot though and I'll tell you why you why. Because we have, like, having that little baby.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, any little thing that I could, any paranoid thing I could say about having a flu shot, like, if you came home and gave. Yeah, you don't want to do that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'd rather have an increased chance of something weird happening to me than, I don't think you can give the flu to a little baby.

Well, they have their mother's immune system, and the breast milk is a real – the breast milk is pretty amazing. So she probably got the flu shot through her mom anyway. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible how quickly it brings them back from colds and stuff like that. There's everything their little body needs in that. That's right. It's really insane that your body makes food. I know.

You know? When you see a woman's body produce food, it's a trip. It's, like, really hard to wrap your head around. Yeah, I had a buddy that would use it, like, for you see a woman's body produce food, it's a trip. It's like really hard to wrap your head around. Yeah, I had a buddy that would use it like for coffee creamer and stuff. Okay, that guy's a freak. I talked a lot about, I talked a lot about how I was going to drink some. And I talked so much, like before I first got talked so much garbage about. I was like, oh, I'm going to drink it.

And when the time came. I'm going to tell you guys. I could do it. When we're off the air, I'm going to tell you a story. It's hard to get back to sucking on those things too. It's strange. It's like once you think of them as where the food comes back, I mean where the food comes out for the baby,

and then all of a sudden you're like, yeah, baby. Like, come on. It's a different thing. It becomes strange. It's like, wait a minute. What is that place exactly? Maybe that's when a man becomes a man. The first time he's...

It just takes... There's like a state of grace where it's like for like six months at least after she stops breastfeeding, you leave them alone. So true. But you can't mess with them during the breastfeeding phase.

It's just rude. It's creepy. When you have kids... Yeah, and you're moving in on your kids. When you have children and you see a woman go through that, you do look at women differently, that's for sure. Like when I was in my 20s, girls were, you know, they were soft boys. They were like, oh, look, play.

I'll play with her. How come you're not just like me? Why isn't your mind like mine? Why can't I get along with you? What do you mean you fell asleep during a raging bull? I have to break up with you. That's outrageous. How do you not like fighting and stuff, you know?

I thought you were me with tits. That that's weird but then you realize they're completely different it's totally different species totally different species yeah it's that's my my take has always been that we're never really the idea that we're gonna like somehow or another be able to understand what it's like to be pregnant or to even want to be pregnant the whole idea of being attracted to a guy it's like so alien to us that for steve we really don't we talked about this earlier like guys that say like we're pregnant yeah what i said to steve he goes yeah you know my wife just had a baby right i was like that's the way to say it my wife don't be like we just had a baby you did no we are, we just had a baby. You did not. No, we are pregnant is the worst.

Oh, it annoys me. That's the worst. We just had a baby is okay because you're together. I would say my wife just had a baby. I might say we just had a baby. I definitely wouldn't say we're pregnant though. That's stupid. It's annoying.

It's supposed to be a solidarity thing. Or how about guys who have sympathetic pregnancies with their breasts hurt? That's a guy just giving up his balls way too quick. Way too quick. He's just ready. He's ready to chop them off. He's pulling on them himself. He's stretching them out himself.

He's like, where do you want to cut? High? Low? Don't trust you, brother. Don't trust you. You're not coming hunting with us. You crafty bitch. We're pregnant.

Shut up. Shut up, stupid. You'll cry when the shit hits the fan. I know you will. I know you'll break. Shut up. The deer is smelling your estrogen. You will cry when the shit hits the fan. I know you will. I know you'll break. Shut up. The deer is smelling your estrogen. You will break under pressure bitch. Yeah.

Okay. You and your bitch tits. You're gonna fucking sink this canoe. Stupid. Do you notice colors in fabric too? Yeah, what is that when a dude will like try to feng shui your house? Oh man, you know what you really should do? You should move all this over to here and change. Who the fuck are you, man? If I go over a man's house, I expect to see just fucking – if the dude is single, I expect chaos.

Dude, of course. I expect total chaos. What? Do you remember – I remember I came to your house one time. This was like literally you were 28. Your house was – he lived – he was doing news radio and he lived way out in the middle of nowhere. And his house was so messier than mine and mine is messy but there was just nothing was messy now no no no no but it used to be in the old but i said i said i go why don't you get a maid he goes

i don't want somebody rummaging around rummaging around my stuff this is my mess it was a cyclone fucking cyclone it was crazy crazy. It was great. Yeah. I couldn't take care of myself. But that's how almost every one of my friends' houses are. If I went over to your place when you were single, it's the same shit. You didn't even have a doorknob. He didn't have a doorknob.

I didn't. He didn't have a doorknob. I'm not bullshitting. He had a place in Venice, and he didn't have a fucking doorknob. He was appalled. And one time while he was- What happened? Did he have a doorknob when you rented it?

Dude, I literally didn't have a doorknob, and I just figured nobody's one time while he was – Did it happen? Did it happen with a doorknob when you rented it? Dude, I literally didn't have a doorknob and people – I just figured nobody is going to break into my house. Tell them the story about the – And so one day he fucking wakes up and there's a homeless lady inside his house cooking breakfast. Literally like cooking. She goes, you got it going on. I'm like, what do you mean? I got it going on.

I actually wasn't – I didn't wake up. I came in. I came in and my neighbors go, there's a woman in your house cooking. And I come in. She's got a meal like prepared. there's a woman in your house cooking. And I come in. She's got a meal prepared. My pit bulls are like, hey, man. She was feeding my dogs. And now you guys have children.

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, she wasn't that attractive back then, though. Listen. But being attractive wasn't really on the criteria. If you were a girl, I was like, all right, I'm in. If you go to Ari Shafir's house, he tells me that sometimes he doesn't change his sheets for six months that's guys dude in college change my sheets only when i change girlfriends the only time i would ever watch i'd be like oh yeah it's probably washington it's true especially if you get used to living

camping style and you're hunting all the time like you are like i didn't hunt it in college we kept dishes in the sink for so long in college me and my two other my two other roommates i swear to god that we had shit growing out of the drain we had sprouts in the drain we'd grown fucking sprouts did i ever show you that thing that grew in my toilet did i ever show you the thing that grew in my toilet uh there was apparently a crack in the pipe below my toilet and a root got in there. And grew to the size of like a muskrat or something.

It was crazy. It was like this long. And it was growing. It's like my toilet wouldn't flush or it would drain really slowly. I couldn't figure what it was. It was an organism living off my shit water. That's wild. I mean, literally living off my shit water. That's wild. I mean, literally livering off my shit water and fat and thick like a tree.

It looked like an animal. Wait, but it was a bark, a piece of... A little root got into the pipe and then... Yeah. The root grew... Roots are crazy, man. They can grow through pipes. Yeah, you see that stuff you add in called root killer.

Oh, yeah? You flush down your toilet you know i don't know something to be in like really like but i'm so fussy now and fastidious about my home now because at a point you like identify with your home you know yeah but also you get tired so not yeah now i like everything's just right i think i'd be like lying in these walls yeah yeah stuff up, man. Yeah, and you're a father and you have children. You don't want to mess around. I grew up in a neat home. You take a break and then you act like your parents.

It's kind of true. I kind of grew up – I remember one day things had to be neat. I got tired of the mess and things had to be ordered and simple and clear. I don't know when the fuck that happened to me, but I know it happened one day. I was like, this is messy. I don't know. I got tired of the mess.

Maybe it's hormonal. You think so? I don't know. I just think it's smart. It's smart to have a clean environment. When your environment is clean, it makes you think better. If you're completely cluttered. Larg it largely it's mental peace of mind yeah like when i get up if i'm writing or whatever and i get up i can't write until the dishes and stuff are done really and

in a way it's like a procrastination thing you know because it helps you put stuff off like if you were really digital diligent really disciplined you'd be able to just work through the mayhem yeah you know for me i got everything's got to be nice and buttoned up. And then I can think about it. J.J. Abrams, the guy who's directed and written everything, from he created Lost to he's a genius. And I just tested for a TV show with Greg Grunberg, who's in Heroes.

He's his best friend since he was three. And Greg's a great guy. And he said that when he pitches jj abrams an idea jj goes i don't want to hear it write it and he goes i know but i just want to hear if i don't want to know and he goes what are you doing and he goes the energy that you're using right now all the energy that you're excited about should be in in you should be doing this with that energy why are you not doing this with the energy why not writing that energy into the idea because this is procrastination you you waiting for my point of view.

That's procrastination. It's kind of cool. Like he wastes no time. All his energy that we use to worry or to think about other things, it goes right into his work. Channeled onto him. If he could only get that jackson of a bitch to stop dialing in the last season. You're talking about the – The pilot guy. He dialed it in the last season i gave up on loss because of him oh i didn't see it i didn't see it i've been

obsessed with breaking bad man i'm almost done with loss is a brilliant i'm just fucking around about the pilot if he's out there listening it's just it was one episode that was ridiculous i forget what it was it was like they were by a puddle that brings people back to life or something like that and he's just standing there like what the fuck am i doing because towards the end towards the end lost guy like they went off the crazy train like people are coming back to life and shit i never watched that show time traveling back and forth i mean it was like all right where's that fucking polar bear man whatever happened to those polar bears where are those at end, they ended up being in purgatory, right? Wasn't that what the...

I didn't even stick around to the end. I'm like... Whatever. The wind monster. Remember the wind monster coming to fuck everything up? It was a great show. Great show.

You were wondering what was going on. It must be so hard to do something like that. Do a show like that just to create it. Keep coming up with ideas. Oh, Jesus Christ. And basically, you have to keep up you keep it you have to keep surprising your audience for years it was a brilliant show for years like a brilliant show that really left you like hanging on the edge of your seat i moved i

got on to it on in the dvd form though so i got to watch like a whole shitload of the only way to do it though yeah it was awesome i watched like the first two seasons like in a row yeah you know so it was great and then you know like you don't you don't get tortured i gotta do that with home yeah that style that like style of tv watch is changing the tv experience in a way you think so well yeah because i think like just the idea of every you know of a serial being like everyone has like this cliffhanger element. And there'd be like time to anticipate. But now, I think it's largely generational, but now you get turned down to something and you're like, well, I'm not going to do that.

I'll just go rent them and watch the whole thing all the way through. Right. You know, it's just a way different experience than kind of like watching a little bit and then for a week thinking about it and watching a little bit. And I think you burn out faster, you know. Every time I get into a show, like if we get interested in a show my wife and i'll just go netflix at a rent or whatever and we and we burn out before you would because it's not meant to be you're not supposed to sit there and watch four half hours in a row some night unless you're joe rogan do you know i know

you can do that yeah i can watch it easy yeah i'm uh i got a problem and you're eight then you get eight episodes in you're like you know, eh, I'm over it. Some shows, yes. It wasn't playing out the way it was supposed to play out. Well, what are your favorite? Do you have a favorite TV show? Like, really, I just don't take in a lot of TV. But the show I like, I feel like they quit making them.

I watch, like, I like Curb Your Enthusiasm. Yeah, that's a great show. But I don't watch. i like curvy enthusiasm yeah that's i don't but i don't watch you know it's still you like comedies right that's because i like stuff that's so far you know i like something that's just so far removed from anything in my life or anything that i do or think about you know and so just like a show like that you know like a comedy like that is funny to me but i just don't i just have never been that interested in watching tv shows i don't know i like to watch movies a lot um so i tend more to watch a lot of foreign movies i don't

know i just want stuff that's just like coming at me from way outside there's there's so many good like drama tv shows now there's so many shows that it's like yeah from dexter and breaking back yeah it's because it's so hard to make movies right now, right? You can sell all that energy just going to TV. Yeah. You're getting these like that Homeland show. That's a fucking unbelievably good show. I mean that is a –

I've only seen four episodes and I got to – once I'm done with Breaking Bad, I'm on that. Dude, it gets better. It keeps getting better. That show is incredible. That's amazing. That's a good fucking show. And it's like this is like a movie. You're watching.

This is like movie quality shit whereas before you were watching like the $6 million man. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's fucking TV. At one point I was like filled with dog shit. No, we're like in the golden age of TV in some ways. I really think so. Yeah.

Yeah. But the thing I always feel about TV like when I'm watching dramas, I always feel like I'm watching people, like oftentimes I feel like it's being written from an angle where they don't really understand the world they're writing about. Like a period piece type shit? No, like even the thing like the HBO vampire show. Oh, that hurts me. Where it's like a bunch of dudes like imagining the South.

Yeah. Like, I got it. It'll be the hell heck. You know what I mean? And it just kind of wants to be like, has any of you ever? And I don't know. I'm not like, don't know much about this. But I know enough to know that it just feels like someone picturing what it would be like in their world.

Well, the guy who created that. If I lived in the South, I would have it be like this. Well, Alan Ball was from the South, but he was a gay man in the South. And I think if you watch True Blood, vampires, that's his experience. I think. I don't mean to put – I know Alan, so I don't want to put words in his mouth. But I think it's what being a vampire in the south like this takes place is what it felt like to be gay when you were younger and it was a violent place. Like really campy.

Yeah. Really campy and violent. True Blood I think was a book or something like that but i think that at the end of the day if you can hear so you can see so much of what it was like to be gay as a young boy growing up in the south yeah you know you know what that just knowing that alone they make a watch yeah that's what i believe i saw a thing and that's i think you just made that shit no i didn't i didn't i didn't i wish i i was like he took comparative literature i'm too like he took comparative literature

I'm too high to remember I feel like I'm going to do gender analysis of the TV show yeah but I'm too high to remember I find it fascinating and I've been really fixated on this lately how pussified movies and television are getting

to the point where the vampires that we have, they're not like vampires. They're like they could be kind of your buddy. They can hang out with you. It's like 90210 with vampires, man. But why vampires? Why would you want to make this horrific monster and change its nature

and turn it into this romantic figure? But my point is what I'm freaking out about is that like there's this whole trend like that Bourne movie. You know that Bourne ultimatum or whatever the fuck it is? The new dude. Yeah. The new dude is pretty fucking badass. Jeremy Renner. Yeah, Jeremy Renner.

He's badass. Okay. He gets no pussy in the whole movie. Yeah. Okay. Really? He saves everybody. This girl's weeping.

She's all over him. But there's never a kiss never any desire on his part ever exhibited that he's even remotely attracted to these unbelievably hot women that he just keeps saving and they're falling in love with him and he's just kind of like blank and nonchalant like what the fuck is the message there like are we becoming do we want our superheroes to be robot men there to service women and keep them alive? And that's like the ultimate goal, but no sex. At the end of the movie, they're sitting on a boat together.

They're facing each other. You almost got a hand to him for not throwing in a love interest, unless it was a love interest. It was a love interest, clearly. Yeah, I mean he's saving her. I mean the idea is that he's not really in love with her. The dude's single and she's hot. I mean come on, what are we, stupid? I think you're right on.

That dude's good though, man. I think that's interesting. It's a really interesting observation though her. I think you're really – The dude's single and she's hot. I mean, come on. What are we, stupid? Are we living in a – I think you're right on. That dude's good though, man. I think that's interesting. It's a really interesting observation though because if you actually think about it, like the TV shows I've seen, even Homeland and certainly Breaking Bad, the sex is non-existent. Yeah. In fact, your heroes aren't even allowed to be lusty or any of that stuff. They're not allowed to be like – Homeland, there's a lot of fucking –

I don't know. I only saw the first five episodes, so I don't know. They get their freak on. Oh, they do? Don't you worry. But it's just interesting how – I wonder if that's true. It sounds good anyway. I just feel like there's some pussification going on on a giant scale.

It's like this toning down of male energy. Well, look at fucking every show on NBC. Community, all those guys have never done a push-up it's all about being well that's okay too i mean that's that's not what bothers me what but what bothers me when i see like like suppression of uh of male shit like i loved 007 like the james bond because he still gets laid yeah he's a single secret agent out there killing and he's drinking and he's uh you know he's a handsome man. And women want to have sex with him.

Let's do this, okay? I enjoy a full superhero lifestyle movie. I don't want a guy who for whatever reason is not sexually attracted to this chick he's saving. This guy's a sociopath. He's a fucking psycho. He's just out there kicking ass and he doesn't want to get laid. You don't want him to be monastic too. Yeah.

I mean in the beginning of the movie he comes out of the water and it's freezing cold but he's naked. He's not even fucking – he's not even freaking out. He's not even shivering. He's just so powerful. Where his nuts shriveled up? No, no. You couldn't tell. You know, Bram Stoker wrote Dracula in some ways as a reaction to the Victorian – the repressive Victorian age.

So when Dracula would come in to – he would be this big handsome guy and a girl was sleeping and he would bite her neck and drink her blood. It was very kind of – the idea was she had an orgasm when she was being sucked dry. It was kind of like a very taboo book when it came out. It was very – it was kind of a rebuttal to how repressively sexual the Victorians were and Bram Stoker wrote sort of that reaction to it. Really? That's interesting. I always thought it was just a fictional movie or a book rather written about vampires. It was an angry kind of reaction.

What was the connection between Vlad Tepes? Because there was Vlad the Impaler. He was the original Count Dracula. They say that the idea was based on this Hungarian, I think maybe a prince or a warlord or whatever. He was an evil motherfucker. He was probably a serial killer. Probably a serial killer who did all kinds of horrible things. He would cook pieces of people and eat it in front of them. He would put people on stakes. That's what they called him vlad the impaler he would shove stakes up their ass and then let them

slowly writhe in pain just associate them he would leave them on on you know on these big pillars like all through the town yeah he was an unbelievably evil guy all the depictions and images of him are him dining with like all these men on stakes like all around you hear about these like i think it was ivan the terrible in russia when when what whoever the artist was that did the winter palace i think that was the winter palace like this beautiful like this this guy it was a lifetime of you know about 20 years of his it's like his opus this great artist i mean and if you look at it it's i think i think it's like his opus, this great artist. I mean, if you look at it, I think it's either the Winter Palace or this church, this incredible church

in Russia. And when he was done with it, and he presented it to Ivan the Terrible, Ivan the Terrible was like, this is the most incredible thing in the world, thank you. And then he took his eyes out, so he couldn't do it for anybody else. Oh, dude. It's a good point. You could be like, you

could be a serial killer and just get in the exact right situation where you have a lot of power and just be able to do it. Who was that woman? Do you remember that woman who's responsible for killing thousands? She was a noble woman, and she was a serial killer of young women. Wow. I've got to pull this up on Wikipedia because it's a fucking fascinating story. It's horrible, man. This lady.

But they say serial killers. There's a book called The Murder Room and the guy who specializes in sadism and serial killers, he wrote what's called kind of like the double helix of the serial killer's profile. Yeah. And he said that a lot of serial killers will definitely be,

I can't remember what the word was, but they become like, they drink your blood. The lowest rung where you're the full-fledged boogeyman, they eat flesh and drink blood. Elizabeth Bathory. That's this crazy bitch. Where was she out of? And what did she do? She killed thousands of girls.

She was Hungarian. Yeah, they called her the blood countess. of girls who's hungarian yeah she they called it the blood countess apparently she uh she just started killing chicks and really got to love it and so it just tortured them and killed them and find pretty girls just torture them and kill them which just killed thousands until they finally um they they didn't even kill her in the end they they locked her in a in a room they gave her like a house imprisonment like she was such a noble woman she was a royal figure she was so I mean

crazy fucking shit man I mean that they didn't even kill her she killed thousands of chicks they don't even know how many she killed unbelievably evil they're out there but yeah Elizabeth Bathory that's the chick's name a lot of times

serial killers like that have a particular taste like it's got to be a specific kind of person you know yeah there's something there's something that snaps allows you to get a thrill off of killing a bunch of people and there's a weird thing that happens to people with this whole royalty thing the idea of royalty is fascinating that's been killing me lately because i don't know how you guys feel about but watching americans get so gaga over the english royal yes yes drives me nuts it's so stupid it's bad enough when the english do it but when americans do it oh my god that's their version of kim kardashian it's the same fucking thing there's this who fucking thing. Who are they?

What are they doing? My father met a count or a duke. Oh, my God. A duke. He was a duke. And they were at dinner. And somebody said, what are you doing? He said, nothing, nothing at all.

Anyway, and he kept going. And it was so natural for him. I take a stipend from the English government. Anyway, but nothing. Isn't that crazy? I'm a duke. Of course I don't do anything. I'm royalty.

And royalty, they get paid. They get paid, yeah. I believe they get so preposterous. You guys met Mo. I think they get paid. The shooter on the show, he worked on Ali. And for some reason or another, I don't remember how it came out, but he was presented to one of the British royalty.

And it was like a guy comes in and breaks down. Okay, when he comes in like don't do this don't do that put these gloves on yeah yeah somebody said that to me i would be like no no thank you no thank you he said you want you know what in his defense he's like every like every part of you wants to just say like no way yeah like no way because but but there's but you're part of you wants to just say like no way. Yeah. Like no way. But you're part of this other thing. Like you're there with people. It's a ritual. Yeah, and you're like people with – you're at work.

You're kind of like I could make like my statement. Like I could express my liberty and like the fact that I'm not deferential at the expense of like all this other stuff that's going on. He's like in the end you just in the end, you just do it. It's like covering your head in a synagogue. It's like covering your shoulders if you're a woman in an Italian church. There's a ritual and a protocol to everything. Yeah, but the thing about it, but with religion, no, there's something much more deep-seated.

But this is just strictly like I I'll honor you because you you belong to some lineage I'm not really quite sure how it came to be yeah and I'm not sure on the rules and regulations how it gets passed along but you were picking you to now be the one that we're deferential to but it's actually it's on American horse shit it's very good everything that we don't stand for. We're like, get the fuck out of here with your crown. But in Britain, they had what's called the Great Chain of Being.

It was very, very central to sort of the British history and character, the notion that the king, the god was there, the king was bottom. Then you had the aristocracy. Then you had the nobility. Then you had the merchant class. Then you had the serfs. Where does Game of Thrones fit in there? Well, you never stepped out of for many years.

That's why Britain was – it benefited from the notion that they had very strong institutions. And so when you had a royal person that you came in contact with, it was very important to observe ritual protocol and ritual sort of greeting and interaction because it kept the wall between you and and the royalty because the entire society to the benefit of the royalty well no but also the whole society was built on not only the the idea of of this caste system but also very central to the british character was that to esteem out of your class was actually considered heretical. It was considered to the detriment of the entire community and society, right? Whereas Americans were like, all I'm thinking about is climbing the fuck out of this hole and getting to the top. It's interesting. A lot of people believe that a society like ours or at least how ours initially was born is only built in response to suppression. It's like you have to have a situation like England where they're completely suppressing you to the point where you're willing to take such a great chance.

But you already have a semblance of idea of order and society, which is based on their system of kings. in society which is based on their system of kings and that's the weirdest thing is it's almost like the only way for us to have ever gotten to a position of power or a position of uh you know creating a culture creating civilization is that somebody had to take control and that ultimately we are these weird fucking alpha apes and we we really want to be like led by like one person or like one group or one leader or at least what have someone at the very top that we can all agree to clap for yeah and until we fill that goal then it becomes this wild fucking power struggle it's like the only way we can work together is through one person. It almost seems like that. What's interesting though is the founding fathers had a rebuttal to that.

George Washington most famously when they wanted to make him king said, I am not only going to not be the king because we don't have kings in this country. We have presidents that are part of a structure, a structure that is directly responsible to the people, right? But that was sort of the idea, and King George, when he found out that Washington had refused the kingship and instead went and fucking retired, was like, that guy's the greatest guy of all. That's the American character. That was kind of sealed as – that was the great example George Washington did. He said, don't ever call me king because that's that is exactly what we fought against well he's the exact opposite of this guy who's running egypt now who tried to turn himself into a king mosey that common mosey what up more crazy asshole it's it's so bewildering man it's

so funny the way people act when you turn when you turn to tie it on man it's not it's just amazing he's like oh now i understand what mubarak was fighting for yeah he's like this right here that's that's that's that's unfortunately a great deal that's the the biggest challenge for the arab nations is is is learning the benefits of democracy not get through that king system yeah look at maliki in iraq We basically created Saddam Light because Maliki now has his own police force that reports directly to him. You know, he's – it's still – that's why the Sunnis are letting off bombs. There's still – whether or not he can share power is a whole different story. You know, I get it with all – like watching the Arab Spring stuff, I mean I was always skeptical of it and one thing in one way it was almost kind of embarrassing like just understanding the history of some of those areas the way americans would so quickly

like forget our allegiances and so you know we're going against qaddafi and like everybody's like yeah you know the number one u.s enemy qaddafi like forgetting that we were doing all kinds of things through there and you know and in some ways supporting mubarak in some ways you know later not in some ways we supported mubarak for 30 years and then we gave three billion dollars in aid every year i mean three billion oh easily yes every year but then but that's so quickly people then but so quickly people wanted to make the jump that like he was at this logical enemy you know and that was frustrating a little bit but the main thing is when i was watching all that i want to be optimistic but i just feel like there's no way that this is just

going to be smooth transition now and there's this there's this competing idea like when you're an american there's like this competing idea we have between being pragmatic you know like we want these countries to be such and such way in order to secure our interests but also we have this thing where it's like the only legitimate form of government is a democracy. And as we're going to find again and again, I'm definitely not like a, you know, definitely not an expert on world politics, but I think we're going to find again and again that other countries being democracies isn't always going to serve our own national security interests. You know, I think that we want to think that it's like, that it's dovetailed and it's not

going to be that way. Like maybe they're better off having kings. You just got to go listen. Well, the president – You want a benevolent king. But Rory Parker – You think about the actual people on the ground in those countries. It's like, yeah, I want to support democracy.

But then someone like – Democracy. Democracy. And you're like, that's not what democracy is. Democracy is voting for the guys I like. It just depends on how you define it because one of the things Rory Parker, I believe his name is a British MP part of the parliament and he's walked every remote village in Afghanistan

every remote village in Africa and he said he'd never been anywhere even the most remote village in Afghanistan. He'd never met anybody anybody no matter how strong their tribal notion of the tribal systems were. He never met anybody who didn't want some say in who governed them. i got so that that that's that seems to be a human uh need and a human

right and a human compulsion to to have some say in who fucking otherwise you get a guy like ivan the terrible who just amasses power we all have a natural we all have a natural revulsion for that we all have a natural kind of i do think you're right that human beings need an alpha a leader and they always find a leader but i also think at the same time they want some say in that in that process and in the ongoing process that is who governs them you know and it really feels like like we talk about with kids if you try to take a spoon out of their hand without explaining that you need the spoon, they'll hold on to that fucking spoon. And human beings seem to have a resistance, a natural resistance to those that would have power over them.

You know? Yeah, I don't know exactly what you're saying. If you think you're going to be the president and everything is going to be smooth sailing, you know how many haters you must have at the moment? I think that's probably half the gray. Half the gray is realizing how many fucking people hate you. Those guys age badly. And, I mean, it can't just be the stress. You make one choice.

You're going to make 50% of the people happy and 50% of the other people unhappy. Yeah, that's the funny thing is the way they got it carved down. It's not even 51%. It's like they got it carved down to 50.1%, you know? Yeah, and they're going to write books about you. Hey, Jay, see how much we give Egypt every year. They're going to write books about you and how much we give egypt every year they're gonna write books about you they're gonna make up lies about you they're gonna constantly every person on the opposite side of the fence whether it be democrat on your side whoever's on the other team they're going after you no one ever does it and then no one ever does

it for four years has maybe they have has anyone ever done it for four years and just said, you know what? It wasn't for me. No, no. Did not enjoy it. No. It's like something that he's like, as much as I hate this, I'm going to keep doing this. Well, I also think that whoever got you into that position of power, you owe them. There's obligations.

I always think about what George Bush said about Hurricane Katrina. They were like, you didn't go down New Orleans for five days or whatever. And then he said, well, here's the problem with me going down to New Orleans during that crisis. If I go down to New Orleans, I got to take 60 police cars and the resources of the city to protect me and to escort me to the damage sites. It costs a million dollars an hour. And you tie up a helicopter. You tieseeing. You tie up all the rescue, all the stuff that should be given to the people on the ground at that time. And he said that was the catch-22. I was going to get criticized if I land Air Force One the day before.

And that's one of the examples of being a president. I think the idea that you have to physically be in an area in order to observe or to respect the fact that a tragic incident has took place is absurd. It's pageantry, man. It's like you're playing a psychological game. And I never heard that word. I would almost hand it to someone if you could make that point. But people are so addicted to the pageantry of it.

They'd be like, oh, yeah, in order for us to recover from this, I need to fly around in a helicopter and have a governor show me that it's flooded because i'm not going to believe it yeah yeah you know and like oh you're right it is flooded how come he didn't come to visit us how come he didn't come to visit us pageantry is a great word by the way i love the joke that jeff ross got up and do to just stand up we did this uh charity Hurricane Katrina and he goes, I went down there. It's not that bad. Oh, no. That's fucking terrible.

But the way he said it was just like – Oh, no. It was so ridiculous. Like that was his joke. He goes, I'll see what the big deal is. Whoops. Yeah. No, he was kidding.

He was kidding. There's going to be a higher incidence of those fucking gigantic 100-year storms. Look at New York. It is going to be. There already is, man. Yeah. It's going to be even higher. Do you guys remember we were together and I was supposed to go to Texas and I flew home?

Yeah. Yeah. I flew home for that thing? Yeah. For the- That was Sandy? I don't remember the name of it. No.

Yeah. Sandy. Did you guys get hit? Yeah. I went home to be with my family and I was there. I was like I went home to be with my family and I was there and if you like if you were in my place you would and you didn't have the news or anything you would have just said man god it was a little windy last night yeah and like a mile away or not even a mile away a half mile away cars are like floating down the streets and stuff but it was so crazy it was just a small isolated

like well no just like because it was so much the storm surge right i mean like if you were if you got above certain elevation you know you were fine it was just you would never have ever have known it was like a look there was a few more leaves on the sidewalk but then just wow some short distance down like you drive to a certain elevation point absolute mayhem man yeah because that area that area had been underwater i believe before anyway really yeah so the sea level kind of went back to that's what happened in parts of jersey the sea Yeah, because that area had been underwater, I believe, before anyway. Really? Yeah, so the sea level kind of went back to – that's what happened in parts of Jersey. The sea level just went back to what it was.

Yeah. You know. It was the weirdest thing. It wasn't just – I mean it was just – it wasn't like blowing and lightning and all. It was just like the ocean kind of went, I'll take that. You know what I mean? They said parts of Jersey and those areas will never be the same. They may never come back. Yeah, there was take that. You know what I mean? They said parts of Jersey and those areas will never be the same. They may never come back.

Yeah, there was areas that just got so wiped over. To build something out there, like the odds that that would stay there and the odds the water is not going to hit that spot again. I was watching some of that footage of the tidal waves in Japan and how they roll through. And it looks like just water. And you think, well, it's just water. They take everything, like cars and boats.

You're in your car. Oh! That footage from that haunted me for the longest time. Horrifying. People trying to get away from that. And that, in a historical perspective, compared to some of the events that we know have happened, like giant tidal waves.

They know about that canary islands shelf apparently there's like a shelf in africa this gigantic volcanic shelf and when it breaks off the fucking water comes at us and it could go deep in on the east coast many miles many miles yeah yeah the way because you're talking about like essentially a mountain falling into the ocean and causing this incredible blast of energy which carries this water, this huge tidal wave that starts in the middle of fucking wherever that is, the Canary Islands, and goes 500 miles an hour across the ocean and then slams into America. 500 miles an hour across the ocean and then slams into America. 500 miles an hour. Dude. I mean, you can imagine some of the catastrophes, but there were so few people there. I mean, you must have just lost civilization.

You must have at that time lost civilization. Well, whatever. Sounds good to me. I think I made it up. But whatever it is, it's going to – yeah. I mean, look, they found many, many – especially near Spain, many, many sunken civilizations. They found the one that they're calling Atlantis, or not atlantis is actually a physical place but it's got concentric circles just like they believe atlantis did i thought atlantis was like maybe inspired by no not

krakatoa because that was the recorded history what is it was the 1800s loudest explosion ever heard on earth it's pompeii right the pyroplastic blast that just yeah well i don't think you know it's really there's a general consensus. I don't think they've reached that conclusion whether or not Atlantis was an actual place. Like, what exactly was Atlantis? Yeah, whether or not it was... I was surprised to hear that.

I didn't know, was it Troy? Yeah, it was real. Yeah. That's a fascinating story. There's guys that look like, what was Troy and what is Troy and, you know? Well, Troy was thought to be a myth. It was not German.

The guy made a bunch of money in the California gold rush or something and went and kind of, like, started mapping out what Troy was. It was a German guy. I can't remember his name. So is it like under contention whether or not that's actually Troy? Yeah.

There's this guy that – and I don't know where it's at now. I remember in college we talked about this and read this thing about this guy. This guy, a German that made a bunch of money in the California gold rush and then went – you'll find it on your little computer there – and went and spent a bunch much time trying to locate troy and they don't think that it was over helen but it was like a trade war and there's some mention of like um some of the integral characters like not odysseus or um but some of the agamemnon or some of the higher up kings there's some like historical allusion to who these characters might have been that got involved in that war but it wasn't like the face that launched a thousand ships i think it might have

been a trade dispute but i'm telling you some dated stuff man because i was in college in the mid 90s mid to late 90s so that was what i knew then you'll find that guy's name so the idea was that this guy uh he he believed that it wasn't fiction he believed believed that it was fiction. He had devoted the latter part of his life to identifying what Troy would have been. And he had a somewhat accepted, when I learned about this, he had come to a somewhat accepted conclusion about what Troy was.

Maybe some of the principal characters were involved, were in fact, like some of the people that are discussed in the odyssey or in the iliad were in fact living people at that time and they were engaged in a large and there was a large battle in a siege of a city and out of that was born that legend of the siege of troy and in the story of the iliad you know what's really fascinating about like ancient ancient Rome and ancient Greece and these incredible structures that they built is that they just all fell apart.

Nothing's going on there now. I mean, I guess the people are living. They're having a good time living their life. But no one thinks – I mean, Greece is almost bankrupt, right? Aren't they completely fucked? They're bankrupt. They're fucked. And Rome, I mean, Italy is – they're just kind of hanging out in europe but if you stop and think about what you know the the insane society that they had at one point in

time where no one anywhere else in the world had anything comparable people have it is amazing fucking people don't work and people have written uh books and and certainly articles about how greece has never hasn't produced a whole lot of artistic expression. That's world-class artistic expression for 3,500 years or whatever, for a long time, mainly because – some rare examples, but mainly because they have that legacy looming over them. If you go to Athens, the Acropolis is right there looking over the city. Oh, yeah, yeah. It kind of humbles you a little bit.

It humbles you. The idea of why would I do anything when I come from when it's already been done sort of the idea is look at us now. And I don't know if it's true. I'm going to start filling my bookshelves at home with really shitty books. I could beat that. I could beat that. That's like have you ever read any faulkner i was trying to write a screenplay and i read faulkner and i was like what the fuck do i have

to say about anything the great genius i'm reading like his imagery and stuff and i was like first of all i don't even know it's the craziest he was such a crazy unbelievable writer like on every level he either beats you either beat you down or motivate you yeah but i was like but what do i have to add to the canon of literature zero hey bro you're gonna write a fucking screenplay about you know but you gotta keep doing it you just you know you can't think like that you gotta be inspired you can't think that that can be very self-defeating but people do think like that they fuck themselves it's It's a trick. You got to just go. If you do the work, you have something to say, right? I mean your experience.

Someone said to me, he goes, well, you know, listen, I'll never be well off. I go, what the fuck are you saying? Terrible. How can you even say that? How can those words even come out of your mouth? I'll never be well off. That's it. You tap.

You're done. You're just going to like coast from here. Because they've allowed other people to define them. A lot of times that's how you define yourself and you hold on to that definition those lines become very strong because trying to step over them is too scary it's you've been disappointed too many times and you've given up but it's just it's all a false belief system yeah and it's how much energy do you have how much do you have enough energy to really pursue yeah but energy i i transfer energy to being something called inspiration you may have you have? Do you have enough energy to really pursue things the correct way? Yeah, but energy – I transfer energy to being something called inspiration. You have no energy unless somebody provides you with a blueprint or the inspiration to do so, right?

One of the things they say is that if you can – a lot of times you can motivate yourself by defining what you're going to lose as opposed to what you're going to gain. We're really good at dealing with things. I didn't get that and then we just – but they say that psychologists sometimes will tell you, what do you – if you don't do this thing that you want to do, what do you actually lose? What are you not going to get?

What are you going to lose that you already have? When you start framing somebody's – if you's motivational incentives that way, they will tend to work a lot harder. I think about that all the time, man. I'm always motivated. I'm always motivated by – What you're going to lose as opposed to what you're going to get. Oh, absolutely, man. Because I always feel like I've carved out an existence that's way better than I would imagine I would have carved out.

You know what I mean? So it's like I'm not motivated by what I didn't get. I'm always motivated in a way by what I did get. So you're motivated like you can't lose this now. Yeah, I want to do something. I want to be able to spend as much time outside. I want to be able to hunt a lot. And then now I don't feel like I got jibbed.

I'm like, man, I got to hang on to – I got a sweet situation to hang on to. It's interesting you say that though. It's as scary as anything. It's as scary as striving towards something. Well, I just realized – I went and bought some mats and I've been rolling with my buddy in my garage. I was like, why am I doing this? He goes, what do you want to do? Because you don't want to lose your fitness.

Well, I don't want to gain my black belt. I think I don't want to lose – Shut up, bitch. You do. No, but I don't want to lose – I don't want to feel like I lose my manhood. And I think that's what I'm kind of working to hold on to. Through age. Yeah, I think maybe I'm holding on to something.

I'm trying to – when I do that, when I roll in my garage for an hour like I did the other day, I think I'm trying not to lose something as opposed to gaining something maybe. I don't know. Maybe we're just – maybe I'm kind of playing. No, man. This is a great – I'm glad I came just for that little bit of insight about, like, you know. How to be a loser. How to have a loser's mentality.

Hey, hey. To be motivated by the prospect of loss rather than motivated by what you might gain. That's right. Just fucking man up and do the work. Shut your bullshit mouth. You're talking nonsense. Just fucking do it. If you want to get better at wrestling or jiu-jitsu, do it because it's fun.

Stop with all this nonsense. You're flooding your own brain with horse shit. I do it Just fucking do it. If you want to get better at wrestling or jiu-jitsu, do it because it's fun. Stop with all this nonsense. You're flooding your own brain with horse shit. Am I doing this because I'm afraid to lose? Are you going to write poetry now? Yes. Are you going to bring me flowers, bitch? Not until you start. Now you squash my poetic spirit.

You're just talking nonsense. I'm glad to call you out on that nonsense. That shit's nonsense. I was about to break into a song. Thanks a lot. You're talking nonsense. Why am I nonsense. I was about to break into a song. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Wind Clipper. Why am I rolling? Because it's fun, stupid. You're a monkey.

Monkeys like to choke each other. It's awesome times. Whatever. Why am I doing it? Come on, man. You can waste your fucking energy. Why? Why pursue these things I enjoy? Just fucking pursue the things you enjoy. That's why you gotta get rid of that fucking Prius. Hey, man! I know you don't want to things you enjoy. That's why you got to get rid of that fucking Prius. Hey, man.

No. I know you don't want to drive that car. I'm trying to talk him into a Shelby Mustang. It's Barcelona Red. I'm telling him that he has to understand

this stage of life that we're in. The cars that are available to you right now are like little rides. Give me three cars to get

and make them kind of practical. Shut your fucking practical whore mouth. This is what you need. You need a Shelby Mustang. The new one. Are you liking to be able to

run your engine when you're stuck in traffic or something like that? Oh, you want to hear it. You want to be able to hear it. You want to be able to hear the rumble under this. It brings you back to your childhood. It will give you bursts of endorphins as you drive. It'll make you feel of endorphins as you drive. I don't get that. It will make you feel better.

But then you might have to see it all. You never had one. That's why, because you never had one. You don't even trust me. And you might sit around thinking, like, do I love this car because I'm afraid of losing something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, that's what you think. That's an old one.

Oh, that's a nice car. That's a 69. That's actually a cool car. Is that your car? No, no, no, no. I have one of the modern ones. Show me the modern one. The Shelby GT500.

There's a new one that's coming out now that has 662 horsepower. What the fuck am I going to do with that thing? Oh, you're going to enjoy the fuck out of it? That's what you're going to do. That's a lot, man. Because I think about horsepower in terms of boats. It looks like a boat. And when you have 666, that's a lot of horsepower.

Preposterous car for a human being to drive. Absolutely preposterous. So I'm definitely not getting that, but give me something else to get. You should get that just to fucking for once in your life. Just have something like that. Understand what the fuck is going on. I'm trying to tell you about something awesome, and you're like, oh, I don't want to be awesome. I know what you like, stupid.

You just have never done this one thing. Am I resisting? Am I resisting? Is your motivation in your car half-due? Stop tapping into my 12-year-old psyche. Me and him have had – Is your motivation and your car just like just not – you just don't want to be as consumptive?

No, I just know what Joe's doing. Yeah, I'm just lazy, but I know what Joe's doing. Joe's just trying – tapping into my – he's like, come on, dude. I'm trying to excite his inner monkey. Get the fucking – get that dog. Get the one that's going to bite somebody. He's like, no, go heavier. More, more. And I'm bite somebody. It's like, no, go heavier. More, more.

And I'm like this. I'm like, no, I'm a naturally moderate person. Stop it. He's like, he's always behind me going, come on, pushy, push, push. He's my canary in the coal mine. We've had fun for years. The greatest. We've had a good time, my friend.

But I do always end up coming around. You know what I wanted to tell you about? I heard you say, you know that show, that show Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me? Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. It's on NPR. I don't want to do you about I heard you know that show um that show wait wait don't tell me wait wait don't tell me it's on the NPR it's like a quiz show but there's a head thing about the news I want to tell you this because apparently I might have got this wrong but I don't think I did last week they were talking about two weird 9-1-1 calls that came in and a guy called 9-1-1 because his hamster had babies oh my god Apparently some guy last week called 911 because he saw a Bigfoot. Oh my God.

I think that would be the correct move. If you really did. Now let's say, I know you don't believe in Bigfoot. I've talked to him. You've talked to Bigfoot? I like your theory about why Bigfoot can't exist. Because he has no hair on the top of his feet and his hands, right? That's someone else. Mine is just Bigfoot can't exist. Because he has no hair on the top of his feet and his hands, right?

That's someone else. Mine is just that he can't exist because there would be dead ones laying around now and then. Like every other thing that's been there. How many times have you ever seen a dead mountain lion? Have you seen him? Yeah. A carcass? No, I mean not ones you shot.

I mean have you ever run across one that you found that just died of natural causes? I'd like to lie to you and say that I have found lions that died of natural causes, but I have not found lions that died of natural causes. But I've seen them in the wild three times. Right, three times. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any chips in the Sasquatch camp. Yeah. But Jane Goodall says that she believes that it exists. And that's fascinating to me. She thinks there's an ape species we haven't found.

No, she thinks it's a gigantopithecus. Well, what about those ones? What more do we know about those ones in the Congo that are like – It's a totally different animal. The chimps? Yeah. What Jane Goodall believes, I'm pretty sure, is that it's a gigantopithecus, which was a real animal. It existed in Asia.

The most recent example of it was 100,000 years ago. So the idea is that we think it's extinct, but it might not have been because we know it coexisted with people. Really? It wasn't discovered, I think, until the 1920s. I think it was discovered somewhere in early in the 1900s. There was a guy who came into an apothecary shop

where they would sell fucking home remedies and shit, ground goat dick and stuff like that yeah chinese places are really into that and they had this giant primate tooth and this guy examined it he said what the fuck is this well it turned out it was a totally different species that nobody ever heard of and it's an eight foot bipedal primate that buried its young or buried its dead rather wow yeah they believe they stacked their dead yeah so the the idea that this thing existed alongside human beings and it really did i love how they can how they can like take a piece of bone and and and construct an entire but the hard part is they

often can't though i mean you can tell a lot but there's a lot i mean like and i don't criticize people like a lot of people get off on looking at mistakes that scientists have made. Like, oh, they thought this, now they're telling us this. It's like they're trying to put together a cohesive narrative. And the scientific process is always inviting people to add on and make corrections. But some people are fixed on this idea that if you can't get everything exactly right the first time, you have no business even dabbling in it. Right. So I'm not – like when people have made mistakes in talking about like lineages i'm not down on them i don't like glorifying the

mistakes to point out that it's all futile and you know it's all bs but but they make mistakes mistakes are made you know and i think you got to continue chipping away at it can you try to add to it but the but the bigfoot thing of all of our you know the species that we have the endangered species that we have in i'm talking about north america the ones that have that we knew we had and they went away went away and and some of the ones that we knew were hanging on we still have a big problem with mortality on those things and we find them you have like very few florida panthers every year they're getting hit on the highway thank god kill those creepy fucks hey dog eating assholes no dog eating assholes how would you like not like panthers one ate my dog whatever

you lost a dog to the lion here yeah yeah but they're awesome yeah they're beautiful but they're killers they're fucking killers they shouldn't be in america so are humans i'm not tolerating that shit yeah only reason i'm not saying this is I know you don't believe that. Anything that can kill me, you can go fuck yourself. If it might eat you one day – did you ever see that video of the woman in Russia where she's in a town in Russia and a polar bear has made its way into the town and is attacking her? And everyone is screaming and throwing shit at the bear. Oh, really? Have you ever seen that, Jamie?

No, dude. Is that a video? Pull that up. Yeah, a woman attacked by a polar bear in Russia. Yeah. It's a fucking, it's terrifying. The bear is just picking it up. It's legit.

No. Yeah, 100%. And she got away. She got away because the guy threw, like, it looks like he threw a tire iron at the bear, and it clunked the bear, and the bear just freaked out and ran away. Wow. And she had her pants down, and she's, like, pulling her pants up and trying to get away the bear like who's the guy that films the launch man why wasn't he over there trying to help her out they were all yelling they were in apartment buildings they were terrified

filming everything instead of getting in there and well that's when they don't want to get right they don't want to get eaten yeah you know if they don't have guys like it's it's if i see a polar bear if i see a polar bear i'm running away guys i love you all if you see what you see a polar bear and he and he starts gouging you with these, right? I would never be like, oh, you know, I'm going to make a movie of this. Yeah, but Brian is not a polar bear. It's really flattering on his behalf to compare him to a polar bear. I do have broad shoulders in relation to my waist.

Brian trying to eat people. This is it. This is the woman. See the middle of it? See that lady right there? It's like near that fence. Watch this. This is really fucked up, man. She's the middle of it? See that lady right there? It's like near that fence. Watch this. This is really fucked up, man.

She's ducking right now. Here comes the bear. Look at this shit. Look at this. That is a fucking polar bear, man. And so here's some guy throws something and it hits him. That's a young polar bear. Yep.

But it's big enough, dude. And they're little babies. They will fuck you up. That chick got jacked. And look at her. She's getting up and her pants are all fucked up. Yep. But it's big enough, dude. Then they're little babies. They will fuck you up. That chick got jacked. And look at her. She's getting up and her pants are all fucked up. Girl, run. Girl, run.

She's... I think she's really hurt. That's a scary ass animal, man. Dude, that thing just took a couple nips out of me. In a village. It just came into a village. You know? Yeah, they don't fuck around.

They eat everything that moves. That's right. Polar bears are way scarier, right? That's what they're worried about, that hybrid, the hybrid between the polar bears. Yeah, yeah. They'll keep turning up. I know a guy shot one, you know? Really?

There's a lot of them now, huh? I don't know. There's a lot more. I think they know about them now. Okay, Steve. But they're not viable. They're not sexually viable. Right.

So this is a global warming thing? Is that what's going on? I know that the theory I'm familiar with is people suggest that it might begin to happen more as the polar ice cap recedes and polar bears aren't able to spend as much time out on the sea ice that they'll be coming inland more. So I think there's been, my understanding again, there's been an increase in the distance inland that people have been encountering some bears and it's greater

likelihood of bringing polar bears into what would be traditionally like the interior grizzly habitat and so some hybrids have turned up but i don't know they're not viable and i don't know if anyone knows like in a bulletproof way that this wasn't happening before and it's happening now. But I think just in a logical sense, if there's not going to be the availability of sea ice, bears are going to spend, obviously, more time on ground, which is going to bring them into, when grizzy bears are out of hibernation in the spring, it's going to bring them into more contact. So, I mean, that's what people say. But a guy, you know, there was a guy not long ago, just a couple years ago,

shot one, and it was legit. He knew it was weird when he shot it and took it in. He was a native guy. He shot it, and it was checked out, and that's what it was. Here's what I want to know. When we go hunting in Alaska, are we going anywhere where there are hybrid bears? Because I will come with an arsenal, my friend.

I don't know that you can really make the case that hybrid bears... I don't know that there's a case we made that hybrid bears are more dangerous than non-hybrid bears. Well, guess what? Since you can't make the case, I'm going to err on the side of the car. Well, how about I make the case that all bears are fucking dangerous? What are you talking about, man? What are you like, oh, plus he's only a grizzly. He's not even a hybrid.

You fucking... Look at you. Whatever. Golden you whatever golden bears weak silly bitch you guys I'm gonna leave some honey and you just go to that I'll use if we go if we go they would probably it depends like if if we go to a area like a black like just category I don't worry like blackberries you don't worry about black yeah you just generally don't worry about blackberries but if you go to you know if you go to an area that has mixed populations where you have, you know, in the interior areas,

you might be hunting black bears, but there'd be grizzly bears around, you definitely got to pay more attention to them. I mean, it's just like you got to pay more attention to them mainly. You owe it to the area and you owe it to the animals to pay attention to it. Because if you just have negligence and it leads to a conflict, you know. But define pay attention. You've got to look out for them all the time. Be aware.

Don't do stupid things in your camp. Don't invite disaster. Which is food. Just being clean, keeping, like, being cognizant of what threats are. Well, see, here's the thing. It's dark. We're cooking meat. Okay? Yep. Which we did last time. As an opposite of what threats are. Well, say we're – see, here's the thing. It's dark. We're cooking meat, okay?

Yep. Which we did last time. That seems to be inviting bears in. Yeah, I think that the goal, though, is to kind of strike a balance. I mean you could live like this really like – and I know some people. We call them being bear annoyed, okay? I know some bear annoyed guys who everything they do is like their whole experience in the woods becomes tainted by their fear of bears yeah well that would be where that's me they like you know they'll only like they'll go off in some other place hundreds yards away and eat like food that they imagine would be

unappealing to a bear and and do all this kind of crazy stuff and like you know they got their they brushed their teeth off in a different area and hang their toothbrush up in a tree because it might smell the thing or they don't go out in the woods if they're you know if their wife's menstruating you know they don't want to go out in the woods with her and you can go crazy or you can be like crazy in the other extreme and just like you know drag a kill an animal and drag it back to camp and gut it and then leave the guts laying there for five days to ripen in the sun next to your tent which would be like the other kind of ridiculous. Or you can kind of walk a moderate line. And if you can do things without like tainting your experience, but just like little common sense issues, not camping right

on top of carcasses. If you're cooking smelly food, like fish and fish guts and stuff, be careful about getting rid of that stuff. Putting your food up in a tree if there's trees available if there aren't things then you put your food somewhere where you can see it and monitor it lay sweaty clothes on top of it to enhance the human odor in the area i mean just little things you can do that don't ruin your time but that you're generally trying to like decrease the chance that you're going to have a conflict that's going to have to get the government involved. They're going to come out and have to kill some bear because you've got trouble with humans. So grizzlies, when they smell humans, tend to avoid humans.

I think, yeah, and even the ones that don't have experience with humans, you know, like if you go in a really remote area where you run into a bear, you run into, like, a two-year-old bear, three-year-old bear. You run into a bear. He's two years. You run into like a two-year-old bear, three-year-old bear. And it's reasonable to assume he has not had a direct interaction with a human. You know, it's possible he just hasn't. His parent, his mother could be 12 years old, and she's had a handful throughout 12-year-old life. But the young one might not.

But when they smell you, oftentimes it just – It's new. It hits them on like a – they just just smell it i think they got the world divided into smells good don't smell good yeah and i think that some smells like a human smell is kind of like i don't like that smell yeah and there's like a and there's a behavior posture we were talking about uh you know a hunt we did on the show where they had to run a bear out of camp and just coming at that bear and trying to look big and pissed off and like unyielding speaks to the bear he's not going like oh there's a person and he's likely to be armed he's just thinking whatever that is that thing is pissed off and coming at me yeah for the folks who don't

know what we're talking about the tim ferris episode of meat eater is when they went caribou hunting in alaska so if you were looking for the one to watch on TV, that's the one if you're looking for this particular situation. But these were big bears. There was one you saw and then an even bigger one that was running towards the camp. And a lot of people are more afraid of the little ones. Really? Because the little ones haven't – they haven't accumulated that – a set of experiences that teaches them like what's good and what's bad. Just think about like adolescence you know if you think about if you're gonna get in like a road

rage incident in some ways a road rage incident with a guy that's 50 isn't quite as dangerous as might be with a guy that's 18 like the guy that's 18 you don't know you know i mean he still might be like sorting through some stuff or he might be willing to like yeah yeah yeah he's not aware of how long life really is kids driving cars you know there's like a you know yeah and i think that and so some people that and these are guys that know there's some of you guys know so much more about bears than i do but but people that know like look particularly the particularly dangerous bears the bears to watch out for are the ones that have been recently kicked out by their mother. And the males will get kicked out and tend to have to go farther afield to find a home range.

Everywhere they're going, they're getting beaten up by a resident bear. They don't have a good lock on available food resources yet. It's very likely that they're hungry, they're inexperienced, they're pressured. And when you encounter those, those are ones that people watch out for. That's a theory about it. Is that black bears as well? I think that those black bears are more likely to end up in some tree in the middle of a town, the young displaced ones. But again, I just generally, and you can cite examples of things that happen, like generally black bears are just not, I don't think of them as a dangerous bear.

I don't think of black bears being any more dangerous than I think of deer being dangerous. Really? I'm just not bothered by blackbirds. There's a crazy video recently from somewhere in Canada where these dudes are – they're in tree stands. And they're standing there and the bear for whatever reason just runs up the tree and is beside them in the tree. Yeah, man. In like a couple of seconds. And he's like, don't fucking move.

And they're talking to each other and they're filming this. That bear probably smelled something. Yeah. Like my dad's buddy got, as much as I just said, you know, I'm not afraid of bears. My dad's buddy got mauled because he was hunting bears from a tree and a sow with cubs came in. And he didn't want to shoot the sow with cubs. You know, most places you can't. But that sow smelled something.

She smelled a person. And her response was to shoot her cubs up a tree to safety. And she shoot them up his tree. So when they came past him on his tree, they started squealing. And then she came up and mauled his lower legs. I remember one night we were sitting in our house. My dad got a phone call. This guy he used to hunt with had gotten his lower legs mauled by this bear.

And he eventually fended her off, was trying to fend her off with an arrow. And the two coves eventually came back down the tree, and then she let him be. Oh, my God. So, yeah, there are instances. But you can also, I mean, if you're just, like, cruising YouTube, I mean, there's plenty of places where you go find a deer and knock the hell out of someone. Yeah. Look at this bear climbing this ladder.

He's climbing a ladder? What are you doing there? No, it's not a big bear, though. Because look at its ears. Now, is it the best thing to do, just talk to him? Look at that. That bear ran away. That's big enough.

Yeah, it's big enough. That's big enough. Just shooting. I mean, like, the acceptance. Well, see, here's the thing. It's like some people say that, like, again, it's like every – if you look at like when people – when bears actually attack people, it's so – it's like oftentimes just like weird circumstances or unpredictable things. But the general thinking on it, the general wisdom on it, if a black bear does attack you, it's predatory. Okay?

He's not defending territory. If a black bear attacks you, he's's predatory. He's not defending territory. If a black bear attacks you, he's like, I'm going to eat that. So the thinking is you fight like hell. Fight like hell. If a sow grizzly with cubs, you spook it and it attacks you. What it's doing is it's neutralizing a threat. So then the thinking is. Play dead.

Get cover, you know, because right here is where they like, here's where they're going to kill you. You cover this and curl up and don't move. And she's like, take that, bastard, and walks off. You know? And, again, a lion, like, if a lion was to hit you, you're supposed to just go ballistic on it because it's a predatory response that it's having. So when black bears, like, when you do hear of black bears, when they attack. It's good to know. So when black bears, like when you do hear of black bears, when they attack kids and like lions often attack like small women joggers, like small women joggers seem to get attacked by lions or young kids seem to get attacked by lions. Yeah, so that thing is like I'm going to eat that.

Jesus. Wow. But then grizzlies eat people too, man. Like you hear about people, you know, they get attacked by bears. Yeah, there was a guy recently. They think it was a hybrid. No, no, no. get at by bears yeah there was a guy recently they think it was a hybrid no no i'm saying well there was a guy who was a miner and uh he went to get groceries in town apparently his uh boat died his engine died so he pulled over and uh that's where they found his body his boat he'd been

consumed he'd been mostly consumed yeah and they think yeah they think that might have been a uh hybrid you know what's weird i was reading reading this bear hunting book by this writer, Tony Russ. He was talking about on Kodiak Island, in the Alaska Peninsula areas, they just have really dense grizzly populations. Brown bear and grizzly is the same thing. People generally say brown bear for coastal grizzlies and grizzlies for interior. He was saying that the male grizzlies right grizzlies for interior and um he was saying that that the grizzlies like the male grizzlies will come out and when they come out in those areas they have you know

they might have like a grizzly for every one or two or three square miles so a lot of a lot more dense than most other areas they'll come out and they when they come out in the spring they're hunting cubs wow that's like that's what's on the menu man it's like there's so many of them they're in there and they them and they're so vicious that they come out and a primary food source for some of these mature boars is grizzly cubs.

He said a weird thing is they'll kill those cubs and all of his hunting when they'll kill a grizzly or a brown bear and skin it he said in all of his hunting he's talked to other guys too. He's never seen where a brown bear consumed the skinned out carcass of another brown bear.

So they eat cubs, but they never eat the bear itself. And he mentions in his book, he talks to some other people, he's talking about some guy like 20 years of hunting or whatever. They've never seen the carcass of an adult get cannibalized. Wow. That's fascinating. But they'll hunt down, and it's like a active prey for them. Wow. So when they're hunting the cubs, do you think that it's a response to controlling the environment,

not letting any new members in? I think it's two things. I think it really is food. Yeah? But it's also that they know that that sow will go back into estrus. Because she's only going to put off cubs maybe every few years. I heard dolphins do that as well. Dolphins murder babies if they know that the woman, because she won't mate with the dolphin.

Yeah. And then there's that blue whale, too. The blue whale will drown a female's calf because she'll breed again. If not, she's not going to breed for years. Jesus Christ. It's rough, man. Yeah. There's a lot of people that really try to dress up the animal world.

Everybody's always, oh, innocent, this and that. It's like there's some wicked stuff out there. But those big boars, he was talking about this dude, Tony Ross, was talking about these big boars, they'll go out and dig dens. Jesus Christ. They come out early, and the females will come out later so the females will be in the dens of cubs and those boars will go around doing site visits no dig cubs are out and i imagine they they're probably a little bit indiscriminate like there's a chance he's

going to consume his own offspring but he's also thinking that all these sows that wouldn't be available to me for two years three years are going to be available to me this June. Whoa. In June or July when they go in the breed. So do the females defend? They have to. They have to. And I feel like I've seen and also talked to and heard from people who talk about that they've seen instances where a female has –

Fought them off? Yeah, where the male wasn't that committed. Because it's going to come at a price to him. But then some of these males are so big that they can get up to be where they're nearly twice as big. And they're battle-hardened, man. It's wicked, though. That movie, Grizzly Man, when those two bears go to war and they start duking it out. Unbelievable footage that guy got.

I'll tell you what, that's some of the most impressive are always down on that guy you know for all these reasons but i'll tell you what man that dude's a hard camper oh yeah you go like do it because i can play a putt no he'll out camp anybody and people in alaska always like like people in alaska get really offended when like an outsider will come up and do some like thing like go camping for a long time so like he gets eaten by bears and everybody's like oh he's so stupid but the guy knew he's gonna get eaten by bears and he out camped everybody you go on to an area like that it just rained and he camped seven summers in a row all summer long people like oh yeah but he had his girlfriend with him that could make it worse man it's like to be uncomfortable with your girlfriend is worse than being uncomfortable by yourself.

Yeah, you're right. You're being uncomfortable for two people, and there's a certain amount of responsibility that comes with that. He was a hard camper. Especially if you like her. Yep, because you're just watching it crumble. And he was a hard camper, and he collected some footage. That fight is unparalleled. Unbelievable.

It's just amazing, man. The power in those two boars is just like, my God. collected some footage that fight is unparalleled unbelievable it's just amazing they believe the power in those two boars is just like my god and they duked it out for quite a while he got like really close-up footage for the folks who don't know what we're talking about these two bears just fighting over territory it's worth watching that movie alone it's worth watching grizzly man alone to watch those boars go at each other. They devastate that area. Yeah, and that's not a common thing to see. That close, that good of footage for that long. It's a long-ass fight.

I had a butt. You can hang out in the woods so much. You can hang out in the woods so much, and then when you look at all the things you've seen out in the woods, it's startling how few really weird things you see, but in the woods it's like it's startling like how few really weird things you see but it's proportionate you know no one just spends a little dinky bit of time out in the woods and then sees tons of weird stuff right it's like you got to put in the hours you know to to catalog stuff like there's a guy i know this guy he's a guy jay scott and we were talking i was

talking one day like i was feeling cocky because I'd seen three mountain lions while I was hunting. And this guy, Jay Scott, just hunts. He's one of the best big game hunters I know. And I was saying, like, you ever seen a lion? He said, I'm looking for number 33 right now. And that's not hunting lions. That's sitting and watching. Jesus Christ.

Sitting and watching. Sitting and watching for game. He had logged 32 that he spotted. Not running them with dogs, but just being there in the woods, watching, looking for game with his binoculars. And that right there, you can't buy it. You can't, like, and he's a very honest guy. That's like, that means, like, oh, that dude spent tons of time out there.

And some of the things that that guy that's like that means like oh that dude spent tons of time out there and some of the things that that guy that was in the footage and i and i'm only going by and on grizzly man i'm only going by whatever i saw on that two-hour herzog movie like lord knows how many things didn't make it yeah oh is it yeah but he was out there and witnessed some amazing sights man yeah that's what people have to understand the timothy treadwell's footage was all turned into this werner Herzog documentary, but this is just a piece of what this guy got when he was living up there. And I think a lot of people believe, look at that, they're going to war with each other.

They're so powerful. They're good Greco. They've got good Greco, good underhooks, good control of the neck. That this guy had suicide by bear, That was the way he went out. That he knew that if he was there as late as he was, that the bears that would still be around would be really desperate. There were older bears. Oh, and you can imagine one of those things getting a hold of you. Look at that power, man.

Oh, yeah. They're going to town. And they're using real jiu-jitsu. Look at this. I know. He's passing the guard. Look, it's filled in the hips. That guy's got a good open guard. And it's not unreasonable to say that those are 800-pound-jitsu. Look at this. I know. He's passing the guard. Look, it's filled in the hips. That guy's got a good open guard.

And it's not unreasonable to say that those are 800-pound-plus animals. Oh, yeah. Those are enormous animals. Think about 800 pounds. I mean, it's hard to put it in perspective, but that's good jiu-jitsu. I'll tell you that. He's in side control right now. He just passed the guard.

He's in full side control right now. And he's got the neck. And he could deliver knees to the head if that was allowed in bear fighting. But it doesn't. See, look at that. See that move? That bear reclaimed guard,

god damn it. That is natural. That bear reclaimed guard. He reclaimed guard. Look at that. Back to guard again. This bear is fucking crafty. The bear on the bottom

is doing a real good job defending himself. This, for real, even though the other bear is bigger, what's going on there, the way the bear fights is how they teach you to fight in jujitsu for real foot on the hips controlling his body not letting him get all of his weight on top of you shifting your hips so your feet touch onto his hips you see the chunks of hair flying yeah there's

an interesting bit of like bipedalism in this too man like they're pretty adept at being on their back you know they're pretty adept at being on their back for a little guy ain't running looking at well when you see them standing up like that on their hind legs, that's when you realize how fucking enormous they are. Yeah. Look at the big chunk of hair missing from his back leg. Do an arm drag. Look at the size of the fucking light one.

Look how big the light one is. You have to check him out. He's being backed down. The younger one's got better jiu-jitsu. I told you. He fights off his back. He might be old and crippled, man. He wore being backed down. The younger one's got better jiu-jitsu. I told you. He fights off his back. He might be old and crippled, man. He wore out the big dude.

Wow. The big dude got tired. The big one had a hold of his face the whole time. You know what? Jiu-jitsu. The biggest bear I've seen, like these are black bears, but on Prince Wells Island where my brothers and I got a little shack, the biggest bear I've seen out there, and that's famous for big bears,

the biggest bear I've seen out there was that's famous for big bears the biggest bear i seen out there was a big injured old bear i don't know what happened but he was just packing a leg and he was kind of in the autumn of his in the autumn of his career you know so he had been like probably the man and now he probably just gets his ass kicked wow yeah he's just he's a guy he's down by a salmon stream that couldn't really move and You can imagine now all the people he'd beat up because he could be old. I killed a bear that was 17 one time. 17? That's from tooth dentum analysis.

17. He could have a lot of grudges against him. Now he's kind of down. One of the cool things about the trip that we went on, we should probably talk about that. We haven't talked about everything else. People are pissed on Twitter. Go pee. about the trip that we went on. We should probably talk about that, huh? Yeah. Talking about everything else. Am I allowed to run into GoP first? What the fuck?

Yeah, GoP. GoP, and when you come back, we'll talk to you about hunting and manly shit. Yeah, you're allowed to say P on this show. This show is casual as fuck. You don't have to worry about saying P. Say P. What'd you do this weekend, pal?

What did I do this weekend? I don't know. I just watched the playoffs, and I watched nate's fight and you know it was uh saffronian fought a great fight man it was a good fight the whole card was good ask me how josh barnett got a big win yeah yeah yeah josh barnett is tough yeah he's an animal it's good uh good wood for him because he was sick he uh he had like a real tough camp apparently there was uh like he caught a real bad flu or some sort of a bug, some kind of a cold.

He could not fucking shake it. He said he only had a few days of good, solid, hard training during the entire camp. Oh, my god. So they're like just fucking half-assing it or trying to do his best but trying not to get sicker. It's interesting to see like where MMA is coming because like if you're not prepared for someone's weapons and if someone hits you with something you haven't seen before, like I was thinking about Nate getting caught with those leg kicks over and over again. Nate's seen leg kicks a million times. I think Tarek Safedine, he's a really classical technical striker.

And Nate Marquardt, although he's an amazing striker, the knockout of Tyron Woodley, that insane KO towards the end. But I think that technically, if you look at all the best technical fighters, unless they're freaks of athleticism, unless they're just much faster than anyone else, they follow a certain number of rules when it comes to defending yourself, when it comes to carrying your hands, when it comes to how you fight. And one of them is you've got to respect everyone's techniques. So you've got to respect leg kicks.

You've got to check leg kicks whenever possible. And I think the idea is that Nate was going to eat a few of them and just tag them with a big punch. That's a strategy that works. Is that one of those bears? No. Tim Sylvia knocked out Rico Rodriguez in the same way. Rico hit him with a leg kick, and he was planted.

He decided he's just going to eat the kick and blast the punch and catch a guy. So a lot of guys do that. And a guy like Marco has got that kind of power, probably banked on that. And then somewhere along the line, Safedine hit him with too many of them, and he was like, oh, fuck. Should have checked those right so it's just a matter of absolutely could and he might be able to beat Saffodine when they fight again you know it's like he it's when you get when you're dealing with that level you know that high level of fighting Tarek Saffodine it's a lot of times what it is

is it's also how they match up. Styles. Saffodine is a really good wrestler because of his time with Team Quest like he's really hard to take down. Wrestling is doing Greco with Olympians. Exactly. So you saw Nate was really struggling to take him down. So Nate was forced to stand with him. He's forced to stand with him and Safedine is being more conservative and he's being more technical. So he kept landing those leg kicks and Nate was looking for the big bombs.

When Woodley fought Safedine, he just hit him with those low doubles and singles. He wrestle fucked him. Yeah. And the one thing they say that Greco guys have a tough time with freestyle wrestlers. Oh, yeah, man. Well, a lot of people have a hard time with a guy like Tyron Woodley. He's just a fucking – he's a super strong dude with great wrestling technique. That's right.

And he's in condition and he's smart and he trains hard And he's a fucking super athlete And he can punch the shit out of you His wrestling is ridiculous He gets a hold of you and you're going to go on your back He's a big strong guy but Nate beat him And that was probably the most sensational he looked So to go from that fight where he looks unbelievably good To this fight

Just a little wake up call Maybe just be a little bit more technical or conservative When you're fighting a guy like that To realize that that kind of accumulation Of eating those kind of shots really can pay off or can and can you know it's interesting because maybe maybe nate i don't know but maybe i wonder if nate felt he was bigger and stronger so he could out greco him you know probably did he probably probably thought he would just blast him look after that woodley fight man i mean he knew he's gonna be a tough fight he knew a lot of people said it was a gigantic upset i don't think it was a gigantic upset i thought i thought i think it was terek saffron's finest performance but it wasn't

like a gigantic upset it was an upset i think it would i would say that saffron's an excellent striker it's a great fighter it's a very good fight a complete fighter yeah and that was like he realized his potential that night you know yeah but um back to what i wanted to tell you about our trip man and thanks for bringing my skull. Thank Ryan Callahan, man. I love that dude. He's a great guy. Ryan Callahan is one of the guys that we went with. A real man.

He saw it through. He's such an awesome dude. The place where we went for dinner when we first came back, we haven't even showered yet. We stunk five days. If you need a great guy you need a great hunting guide right uh call ryan callahan we were out in the you know camping by the side of the river for five days we hadn't had any showers and then before we even got to a hotel we decided let's go get some dinner somewhere or we'll get some lunch so we go to this place

and this fucking dickwad who owns the place has this shrine up to the the fallen marines and he comes up to us and starts talking to us about obama and are you are you the benghazi attack yeah oh they killed my boys he's just this overbearing blowhard he's a real a-hole and then he starts yelling at his staff and he starts yelling at a woman who works there and what it's just like dressing her down for no reason. It's just – it's really embarrassing to all of us. Dressing her down over order confusion that we created by having like a complicated order. Yeah, and it wasn't anything that any of us had any problem with at all. It was just like, oh, no.

Oh, no worries. Everybody was fine. But this guy is treating her like she just took a shit in the middle of your fucking chicken soup. It didn't make any sense. treating her like she just took a shit in the middle of your fucking chicken soup it didn't make any sense so ryan at the end of the the dinner he gets up and he goes over to the guy and he starts calling the better business bureau on the phone and he tells the woman quit you need to quit you need to not work here just get out quit right now and he goes you sir are an embarrassment you know i'm a native montana and i have some people in here i'm showing them what montana is like and they have to see you exhibit this kind of behavior

and i was like wow that's some john wayne he was john wayne man he was sitting there he defended that girl he was embarrassed for his region he stood up for that girl the guy started trying to talk he goes i am not talking to you sir but i cannot understand for the life me why you would speak to somebody like that i just can't understand and ryan ryan is ryan's so polite but you can tell he's a he's he's such a moral upstanding guy like he's just this great guy with a mustache you know just stand there like just just standing up for what's right and he kind of like shamed all of us we were like god i guess we should have done that we're like i'm not good i'm not good at that because i i that guy mad made me mad you know the way it's almost like he um it's almost like he's trying to sabotage his own restaurant it was the weirdest thing to have they'd be like

i'm gonna go into your restaurant and buy the products you're selling yeah and then you're gonna come start like quizzing me into things that i know are traps yeah you know basically like that we were like al-qaeda well he was asking he was asking us how we felt about obama because it was right before the elections he was like yeah you're not you're not voting for obama right yeah but then his his political his political analysis was this oh you're gonna be a boat obama you're gonna get he started dancing around like i guess ob's gay or it's gay some stereotypical like

I was like you're a fucking weirdo I hate when anyone make like I hate when anyone makes like when people come up just uninvited to like talk what's your political party

or make a political insinuation I remember when we when we had our kid we had to get a pediatrician I remember going to a guy who like started making cracks

like just assuming like kind of like that we're in the club. We're in the left-wing club. He just knew that we were in the left-wing club and started making cracks about right-wing people. I remember walking out. I'm like, there's no way I'm going to take my kid to a pediatrician. When I walk in, I want to talk about my child's health. I want him to get in there with me and make assumptions about my politics. It has nothing to do with the services i'm seeking and when i wanted to eat that guy's hamburger the last thing i wanted to hear was his

like analysis of i think it was like the benghazi thing yeah yeah yeah well you said you even said he tried to talk to you i don't talk about politics but joe i i was messing with the guys like you guys got drunk i was like nah just a little blow and he's like who's smart ass and and then joe joe finally joe was like hey stop talking just a little blow. He's like, who's smart ass? Finally, Joe was like, hey, stop talking to that guy. You're encouraging him. I can tell when you clam up. I don't. I didn't like that guy. He wasn't nice. When you see a guy who's not nice to his

employees like that, I really don't want to talk to that dude. The upside is that Ryan Canley is a solid guy. Yeah, he's solid as fuck. That was a fun experience, man. To have our first hunting trip with you was a real treat, man. It was so much fucking fun. We keep talking about it.

I love seeing it through new people's eyes, you know? Yeah, that's got to be weird for you, right? I mean, you spent your entire life essentially hunting. You can't even remember the first time you killed anything, right? No, I don't. Well, I remember the first deer I killed, but as far as hunting small game is be around it you know what i never you know what i never had is uh not that i relish seeing other people i never had that like the shock of death the people you know i mean right the the people experience like kind of like the

the shock of like how serious it is so if someone grows up on on a farm, yeah, and they see that all the time. Yeah, they just don't have it, you know? Yeah. And I didn't grow up in agriculture, but I grew up involved in hunting, and I was around a lot of things, and I never had that level of surprise. And I think that when you take someone out for the first time, and my brothers have found the same thing with their wives or taking their girlfriends out or friends out,

that there is that, there's a real reckoning that people have you know and um the funny thing is despite someone's response like usually people if you if you kill an animal for the first time and you're going to eat it regardless what you're gonna do with you kill an animal for the first time it's it's not i don't want to say it's humbling but it like stops other thoughts you know you just you're alone with that thought for a minute but the interesting thing is I don't want to say it's humbling, but it stops other thoughts. You're alone with that thought for a minute. But the interesting thing is as much as I've seen that happen, I've never had anyone later come to regret having done it. It's always in some way strengthening for people to go see that life and death thing.

No one's ever called me back and said that was just a terrible mistake for you um intellectually intellectually knowing that this is a unique experience for most people how did you know how does that make you feel like when you see it through their eyes and the the idea to you being so alien it's it's exciting for me and um i think that i'm looking at i think that i already kind of in a way i know what the what the experience is going to be for the person because i think in some ways we're talking about really base aspects of human nature you know and so i kind of can anticipate like if i take someone out on their first hunt and just kind of want to show them hunting first, what I usually do, you know, because, like, I respect you guys and want you to have a good time and respect your opinions on things. So I'm, like, wanting to, like, take you on an experience that's going to be a good one, you know, that's going to be, like, an immersive kind of experience.

So I know that there's a certain thing that goes with that. Like, just to kind of get away from stuff and be out in an area where you've diminished some of the noise and you're allowed to be in the moment it's just going to put you in a certain spot and i think that that it's like to take someone out on the first hunt i'm not worried about like a wild card scenario because i've done it enough to where i've seen that it just doesn't happen it's like people go on a kind of predictable journey on a hunt. You're talking about wild card. They would have some crazy response to it. Oh, okay.

You know, that it would be like really unhinging for them or that it would put them into, that they would be so depressed or that they would be so guilt-ridden. I've just never had it. You know, it's not like when I go into it, I don't think like, wow, who knows what's going to happen when this happens. I'm generally like, you know what's going to happen is the person they have a very fulfilling experience you know and they're going to appreciate the challenge they might not ever go hunting again

but they'll always remember back on that and have come away and found out something about themselves and it's like it's never been otherwise if i if i i would probably stop if i found that there was a high degree you know there's a there's a thing that happened to me, though, with my own wife. She didn't grow up around hunting. And she eats a lot of wild game and has eaten a lot of wild game ever since. She eats more wild game than 90% of the hunters I know. But she just had it in her head. She's like, I don't want to see an animal.

I don't need to see an animal get killed. She's like, I'm fine with the hypocrisy. If you want to call it hypocrisy, I'll eat wild game. I'll eat meat. I prefer to eat wild game over domestic meat. I just don't want to see a deer get killed. And one day I invited her, we were up at my cabin and I invited her out on a deer hunt with us. And my brother wanted to get a deer. And we took our boat out and landed our skiff at this river mouth, and she was reluctant to go along because she was afraid of what she might see. And I had encouraged her to come because I'm like, what's going to happen is you won't even know the deer is there.

We're going to spot a deer that's far away, probably obscured by brush. You'd have to look for it really hard to see it anyways. We're going to shoot it. By the time we get over there, it'll be dead, and it's not really the experience you're imagining but we beached our skiff and started going up this gravel bar to stream bank and here comes three deer something scared them a bear i don't know what something scared them because they're running toward us and they get so close that i i'm not kidding i'm looking at the eyelashes on this deer oh my god

they're just there. And I see that one of them's got spikes. One of them's a buck. And it was a buck-only season. And I see my brother. We're kind of hunkered down by a rock. And I see him, like, raising his rifle up. And I'm like, you son of a bitch.

I was like, do not shoot this deer right now. We'll just get another one later. And he, you know, piles that deer up. And when my wife looked at me. He shot it. Yeah. You see, piles that deer up. Shot my wife looked he shot it yeah you see piles that deer up like shot it at point blank how far away are we talking 10 feet into that monitor oh my god just close you know what i mean and and it turned and she it turned and she thought that it he had missed but you know fell over it was far i'm exaggerating it was far and that was very close

maybe that twice that distance. Maybe twice that distance. Even twice that distance. I remember seeing its eyelashes. We're talking about like 30 feet. And very, very, very close. And when she looked at me after seeing that, she was looking at me across a vast, vast gulf of distance. It was like she looked at me like she had never known me.

And I honestly, we were just married. We were married not even a year. And it was the look she gave me, I was like, this could be the end of our relationship. Did she find it sexy? No. No. She looked at me like we were the barbarian yeah yeah well you just assassinated bambi right in front of her but you know what was weird and we're sitting we got we

drug the thing down she didn't think we drug it with enough ceremony she's like it's head was banging you know we gut it out drug it back threw the skiff and started motoring back toward our shack. And no one was saying a word in the boat at all. But then within 45 minutes, within 45 minutes, there was enough time for her to process what she saw, and her take home was, you know what, I guess I'd still rather eat that thing than, you know, an animal from a feedlot. Sure.

Of course. It was just like like it just took her a minute because right she was like and later i felt like she's like i feel like i should feel something different than i do i feel like i should feel outrage intellectually yeah but then once she sat in that boat and thought about it it was just like it just passed yeah it passed she's like you know i don't know things die it's so fascinating that you have this you have, you know what? I don't know. Things die. It's so fascinating that you have this different point of view on death than so many people. And for your wife to experience it like in its most shocking form on the first pass. Yeah.

I'm sure it would take a little while to intellectualize something like that. I took away something interesting by butchering the deer and getting my hands in that deer. I kind of thought to myself, I can certainly see how a hunter would have an easier time taking a human's life with a knife or whatever. I wonder about that all the time. I think because you have an intimate experience with that animal, you're not as squeamish maybe.

It is a strange feeling when you reach in there and you feel the guts for the first time. The whole experience was really fascinating. The heart. But I passed out when my wife had an epidural when she was having our first baby. Really? Because I used to tell people, I'd be like, and I want to write it off as a needle thing. I'd tell people, I could cut your arm off, but I can't watch you get a shot. Wow, that's so weird.

I don't know if it's a needle thing, but I don't know that it translates. I think people do. but I can't watch you get a shot. Wow, that's so weird. I don't know if it's a real thing, but I don't know that it translates. I think people do. There's like an argument against hunting is that it turns you into, like you're so comfortable with death and you're like an animal. That should be the same argument I don't know that it necessarily,

I don't think it translates to being like comfortable with human and human violence. I mean, that's the same argument then that someone who runs a chicken farm can be, you know, they kill chickens all day. I just think that violence transforms you fundamentally.

For example, like when you've done combat sports and you've gotten punched and knocked out or kicked in the head and knocked out or just put into a choke. And you are different. You are different about your own mortality, your own relationships to other men. Do you know what I mean? I can picture what I have not been hit many times. I can still picture what you're talking about. When you've been taken to a mat or you've had somebody do whatever they want to you and you realize, oh, I'm very vulnerable, or you get knocked out and it really hurts

or hit in the body, that I think fundamentally changes you in your relationship not just to other men. How do you think this relates to hunting though? In the same way like when you have an intimate experience of harvesting your own meat, which actually requires a really loud noise, the killing of an animal, and you see that blood and you feel that what just was alive and you're touching it. Then you butcher it. I feel like I approach – I don't know, man. I don't even know how to articulate how it changed me.

But I do think that something that is that intimately violent is going to – Why do you keep saying violence? Because I don't see it as violence at all. I think it's pretty abrupt in its ending. I've started using it. Violence? I used to not use it. I think it's pretty abrupt in its ending. I mean, there's a violent action. I've started using it. Violence? I used to not use it.

I've started, like, coming to terms, because I just want to, like, sanctify it. You know what I mean? And I'd be careful about, there's a thing in the hunting world

where people are very reluctant to use the word kill. There's euphemisms for kill. Really? Harvest? Yeah. Kind of like harvest or take. But I feel like,

I mean, the obvious, the gunshot is violent. But the butchering and all that stuff didn't seem violent. It's post-violence. Yeah, violence is the wrong way to use for it. But I just mean the blood. Very graphic and real.

Feeling the temperature of the blood, smelling it, having it up to my arms. Yeah, I'm not trying to imply that shooting animals isn't violent. I meant, you know. No, yeah, the butchering and everything of that. But the whole experience I didn't think of as a violent experience. It was very surreal, very, you know, that's like a commonly used term, like the connection to nature. It's one of those terms I think that's used so much that the meaning of it gets a little fuzzy, gets a little bullshitty. You know, oh, my connection to nature little bullshitty you know oh my connection

to nature satnam you know but that is what it is when you're out there living in that animal's world sleeping on the ground just basically like they do and then following them around then you shoot one then you're pulling its heart and liver out that's that's a fucking connection to nature i also got a different respect for what a knife can do which is weird like you go wow man they really do work yeah yeah yeah we talked about this you know that's the thing that i found like being out with you on that on that trip and then that i thought of from having a hunt with tim ferris once is people that have been like fighters like i've never i'm not a fighter like i haven't i've been hit a couple times but i've never beat anybody up or anything well i beat up one guy in ninth grade but

you know but you i think that you bring a level of calmness just to the act of shooting like being able to like get down and shoot some people are so um unable to control adrenaline and fear, they become, they can't shoot. Yeah, I could totally see that. I got a buddy who guides and he was saying that one time he took this guy up and they were hunting tar in New Zealand and the guy shot

and my buddy's watching through his binoculars where the bullet hit and he showed me, someone was rolling a video when he did it and you hear my buddy say, you're 20 feet high. 20 feet high. 20 feet high. That's hilarious.

I think a lot of it is just the amount of time I've rehearsed shooting. He left his mind. He left his mind. When I was – I would have been able to shoot that deer with the first time we saw him, but I didn't have enough practice with that scope, and I was too close to the scope. And you know how you get that weird thing? I couldn't find him in there. It was almost like two black half moons crisscrossing over each other.

I couldn't get the image that more than any that more than anything else um is cause of of beginner hunters not getting shots at things is the weird eye like the eye relief issues it becomes very second nature but yeah it's pretty precise like where you put it right and when you're in a weird like in a weird position and things are happening fast it's tough man yeah for folks who don't know what we're saying there's a scope on the top of the rifle. And if you're too close to that scope, it distorts your view. It fucks up. You have to be just in the right spot. And the first time we saw the deer, I couldn't get it in the right spot.

And then he went behind this little area and then came back out again. And when he came back out again, I was able to figure it out. I pulled back a little bit. I was like, oh, there it is. But I was freaking out. I was like, I can is but i was freaking out i was like i can't fucking see this thing and if i lose this fucking deer because of this i'll go crazy yeah we have been stalking them for days that's the thing that comes into is just excuse me just

wanting yeah to get it done yeah i was desperate there's an it's like the motivation that comes out man there's a lot of things that like there's an it's like the motivation that comes out man there's a lot of things that like there's a lot of things that that come out in hunting that i think are applicable to to life and work and stuff but you get like when you've been out there a couple days and you start getting accustomed to that i think it's easy to go for a day and walk when they oh it didn't happen right right you get a couple days into something most people like what i would almost call like like a work ethic or like something comes up where you're like you know we've committed ourselves to this we put time into it we're out here and you just want to make it happen and it brings out

like a level of drive that's what happened to me and it feels so good to come to fulfill the goal that moment becomes such a gigantic sweeping moment and that's why it's hard to like stay calm but it actually happens when you're building up with two days of fucking shitty camping and one with it's raining and pouring outside and it's cold every morning and we're going to bed at like eight because there's nothing to do it gets dark we all just go to bed and then we get up at like we were getting up like six six in the morning? Yeah, it was a long day. And then just wandering around trying to find a deer. Yep. But one of the craziest visions was when we were on the top of one of those hills. And you're looking around at the vastness of that area.

And man, was that fucking humbling. We were standing, I don't know if you remember this, we were on the top of one of the hills. One of the first times you spotted a sheep. If you remember this, we were on the top of one of the hills. One of the first times you spotted a sheep. You were glassing the area and you spotted a big sheep way the fuck away from us. And when we were on top and we were looking around, you're up looking over at the vastness of this thing.

You could just start walking and starve to death and no one would ever find you. No one would ever find you out there. I thought about how cold it was all the time and starving to death and how you have no light. You can keep that Stone Age shit. You can keep that indigenous culture stuff. I enjoyed it for five days, I'll tell you that. It is a humbling area, though, man. It's one of those cool areas that really,

and again we're talking about the Missouri Breaks region, it's one of those cool areas that really just kind of on its own resisted development. There's some spots that were so stunning that early on people were like, this is like Yosemite, Yellowstone. The momentum was always going toward hanging on to it. People wondered, like, this is special. I mean, we've got hot guys shooting up out of the ground we should early on like make sure to not screw this place up and there's some great areas in the u.s like i would argue hell's canyon hell's canyon

the missouri breaks reason that just remained pure just through toughness and tenacity like everybody went in there and tried to do something. And it's like one of those places where you go and it's like, they tried to do that. It didn't work out. Like, one of the things that that place is known for is that horse thieves used to just go there because they knew they could go hide out, you know? It was, like, useful to them just as a place to hide out. And there were some campaigns where it was like, we're going to go into the breaks.

We're going to find them all we're gonna hang them from cottonwoods and they'd go down in and root out the guys and it was like a spot that held wildlife for a long time you know there's a spot where some of the plains tribes could go down and hide out in there and the break on the mussel shell that goes into that area was one of the last place they had free roaming herds of buffalo in Montana. It was just like a spot where people would try to get a grip

and it just didn't hold. And now, it still isn't really, there's some protections there, but it's not like categorically protected like a place like Yellowstone is. But it just,

after a while, people almost kind of threw their hands up in the air. And the interesting thing we were talking about is because it's... Folks who don't know what you're saying,

it's like the people trying to settle in that area couldn't – they couldn't live. They couldn't run farms. Couldn't grow stuff. They couldn't grow stuff. It's all explain. Yeah, people would go in and try to do homesteads. They'd try to run sheep in there.

How would that work? The government says that if you stay on this land for X amount of time, it becomes yours. Is that how it works? Yeah, you do improvements on it. You do improvements. So there was all these homestead sites where we were walking around and we'd find these really old logs that you know used to be uh yeah side of a house maybe sheep shacks or side houses root cellars it's fucking weird if you went in there trying to what's a root cellar oh like a under like a climate controlled area where you dig down into

the ground and you'd have like a cool place to store things or it'd also be freeze-proof because you're down you know you go down the dirt ways and then you there's still a lot of old structures there to have side you know you can see that it had a side roof how far do you have to go in the ground before it becomes freeze-proof well however far down the frost line is when you put in like you know people have a frost free riser in their yard where you got most places like in michigan remember we'd only go to our frost free riser only went down 36 inches how fucked up is it if you go deep in the ground it stops being cold we go deep enough it'll burn your ass yeah but isn't that is that why it is you're getting past the surface and it's getting

closer to the yeah so like in alaska what they do is they they dig down into the permafrost and use that for refrigeration all year. Oh, wow. That's interesting. But you read about guys on the prairie that used to, they would in the winter hunt and dig down into the ground where the ground was frozen. They would in the winter hunt and fill that with animals, fill it with quarters of meat, and let that freeze in the winter. And then pile canvas down or blankets on top of that put dirt back on so it'd freeze and they'd dig that up months into the summer and that meat still be good down there what it just takes so they would wrap the meat in canvas that's incredible

frozen on they'd dig a big deep pit eight feet deep or whatever and put meat in there and let it get frozen you know wow and then pile dirt on let all that freeze up and then it'd get warm out and you could dig down there later and get the meat out. Who's the fucking genius who figured that out? That's brilliant. What about worms and stuff? I guess not. Dude, I've been watching.

That's deep enough. If you do it in the winter, it's not getting fly larva. I mean, if you let flies land on it and it was hot out and you buried it, you'd have a mess on your hands. But anybody knows if you dig a hole and put your hand on there, it's cool down there. Yeah. Wow. I'm fascinated by these Alaska shows, all these different subsistence shows. Have you seen any of those?

Crafty way of doing it. Yukon Men and all these different shows where these people just live up there, and they've been living up there for generations. I've never seen that. You know, trying to get by, killing rabbits and eating them. Yeah, a good lot of craftiness, man. You've got to be a carnivore straight up with that. Oh, 100%.

I mean, they grow some vegetables in the four months that they have to do so. They have like a greenhouse and shit, but most of their food they're getting from, you know,

shooting animals. What are the Native Americans, I know it varies in the country, but where do they get their vitamin C and their micronutrients? Fresh meat, man. GNC.

That GNC is better. You don't get scurvy eating fresh meat there's this amazing story yeah there's this amazing story but yeah there's this blood the blood in it yeah dry dried meat loses it so even when you when you put in when you put fruit in it if you're making fruit jerk you put bananas in a dehydrate or something fruit loses vitamin c through dehydration um there's some loss of it there's this amazing story about the french when the french started going coming over here to engage in the fur trade

and do all their exploring and they were centered around a focal point of the St. Lawrence Seaway Champlain the guy that's now the father of New France he had this idea where he was going to take orphans from Paris and bring them over and give them to the Indians

thinking that the kids already knew French he'd give them to the Indians, thinking that the kids already knew French. He'd give them to the Indians. The Indians would go take them off for a couple years, come back, and they'd be bilingual, and he'd be able to use these as emissaries, like ambassadors in trade. And one of the first ones that we know about that he tried us with was this kid who's later, we now, people call him Etienne Brulé,

gave them to the Indians. And in the first winter when they came, when Champlain and his people came over, they died like mad of scurvy all winter. But this kid was supposed to go hang out with the Indians. And so they would go out and fish through the ice and hunt. And they were eating a meat diet. But they had, I don't know, 24 fatalities that year. The vast majority of the people all died.

The kid never died. And everybody else was's hold up in their cabins eating like hardtack and salt pork and stuff and this kid that was out roaming around eating fresh killed meat survived and then later went on to do all these amazing made all these discoveries he's the first person to see lake superior first person all over the great lakes went down all the way down the susquehanna. Might have been the first white guy to ever lay eyes. Was it Susquehanna? Yeah, no, it is. It's just Joey Diaz.

There was apparently something in the Laurel and Hardy called the Susquehanna Hat Company. And the Susquehanna Hat Company, they had shitty hats, and they'd put the hats on, and the top would pop off. This is really old stuff. And Joey Diaz once went on this crazy rant

for like 10 minutes about how our weed was susquehanna weed this fucking susquehanna weed and i didn't know what he meant i thought he was talking about hannah montana so i was totally confused i was like what the fuck are you saying funny by the way it's fucking susquehanna weed you got you're feeding me over here but anyways they eventually ate this kid they ate the year quiet dude yeah that was common that was another they ate him? The Iroquois did, yeah. That was common. That was another fascinating thing. They ate him on Georgian Bay, man.

You told me that a lot of the tribes of the Great Lakes, like cannibalism, was fairly common out there, huh? Yeah, man. They'd quarter people out. Wait a minute. What tribes were doing this? Well, the Iroquois ate Brule. Wow.

See, he wound up going totally feral. He went totally native. And the French even disowned him, you know, because they complained. He'd come back for the trading season with the Indians, and they complained that his morality had conformed to the tribes. Like you're going to turn a 13-year- to some to an indigenous culture and go away for a couple years and he's going to come back still acting like a french catholic wow it's kind of ludicrous yes tarzan the story of tarzan yeah they were like really upset that he came back

he's very promiscuous and in his hair he changed his hair and wore native dress sounds modern yeah so he integrated and eventually he got into a legend has it i don't know how much they really know about what happened legend has he got in a dispute over a woman up on georgian bay so he's a lake here on and they cooked him and ate him jesus christ and they would they would boil them so what what these guys would do in this area like a lot of these tribes in the great lakes area they would sometimes they would just carry captives in the boat live and then butcher them when you wanted to eat them. Or they would raid an area and butcher everyone and just stack the quarters in the boat. So there's accounts of people talking about human legs stacked up in boats just as traveling food.

Brutal. Oh, my God. And in all that stuff you're talking about, like, making people eat parts of themselves and, you know, like cutting off their fingers and making them eat your finger or, you know, like having a big sport out of it. Just like stuff that's incomprehensible now, man. But people argue, you know, anthropologists argue that all that violence had some societal function. I don't know. The societal function of capitalism stacking legs in a boat for travel food holy shit yeah we were in new zealand we were in new zealand

filming in new zealand we went and looked at this this island and this big lake and what they say is that the the indigenous people in new zealand in the south island who hadn't even been there that long but they had been there they had Some people had come from the North Island and conquered the people in the South Island and would keep stocks of them out on this island and staked out. And when they wanted one, they'd paddle out and get them and eat them. Jesus Christ. It's like the road, man. It's like Cormac McCarthy's The Road.

But it's kind of fascinating that I got to The Road. I watched the movie until he was showing the kid how to shoot himself in the road, man. It's like Cormac McCarthy's the road. But it's kind of fascinating that I got to the road. I watched the movie until he was showing the kid how to shoot himself in the mouth. And I went, nope. No, thank you. I don't need this fucking visual in my brain. But the idea that this was happening on a really regular basis is really not. A lot of people don't know that. That's not in the folklore of the Native American.

It's never discussed. It's always they were in one with nature and how, and they were peaceful to the white man. No, they were human. That's what they were. I know it's so hard to come to grips to what happened to the indigenous peoples here. It's so hard to come to grips to it that people wind up going in wild directions. It's like that it was just brutal savagery you know it was this awful existence or that it was just this like peaceful harmonious

existence it's like really complicated it's really hard to just be like you know what there were complex and varied cultures that lived here yeah yeah that had that were human you know all too human but warts and all right well the sioux you know the idea the the the word sioux means indian and indian means enemy they call themselves the lakota people the word sioux apparently was what the other indians called them wow there's a similar thing with with eskimo as a derogatory term the athabascan people refer to the coastal people as you know eaters of raw fish or whatever, and it became like a derogatory term that stuck. It's really crazy when you stop and think about the idea that up until whatever it was,

14,000 years ago, the first people – when did the Vikings get here? You mean the first Europeans? Who do they think of the first travelers? 14,000 years ago was the first humans here in North America. 14,000? The first humans, you know. Just think about these people that lived like no one else in a big continent anywhere in the world.

They traveled the entire thing, and they had all these little tribes, and they were hunting, and they were all living this crazy sort of hunting gathering lifestyle like an entire continent filled with people doing it it's really fast by the way according to according to a lot of scholars they believe that there were 20 plus million native americans on the thing that gets me is the buffalo you know when you uh the episode that you um shot wild buffalo in mexico that was a fascinating episode and it made me really stop and think about what it when you were describing the imagery of what it used to look like seeing buffaloes roam across the country there

would be like giant like the shadows from giant clouds just like the entire land would be covered in Buffalo and this is how it was for these fucking people that lived here for what 10 000 years or something from whenever the water the the ice thawed and became the great lakes they experienced an apocalypse of sorts yeah i mean it's like fucking avatar it's the it's the avatar movie i mean it really is it's crazy shit if you really stop and think about the fact that the entire continent has all these people living this what we think of is like a very romantic life you know camping with leather teepees and shit and out there making fire and dancing and hunting and like it's pretty nuts the rest of the country shooting cannonballs off of boats and you know what i mean they're

fucking they're developing eyeglasses and you eyeglasses and navigating the seas and giant hemp sails and medicine. And these fucking people are riding around. Weren't even riding on horses, right? They weren't even until the Spaniards came. It's funny that so many guys that hunt become interested in early cultures. become interested in early cultures. It's obvious that if you like to hunt animals, you become interested in

hunter-gatherer societies. But just to look at it, not from that, just from how great the hunting must have been, but to look at it from other aspects. Just like, to live with the Plains Indians, the proximity to death is, you cannot, unless you live in the most war-torn

region of the world today you probably can't fathom the proximity to death that you lived around yeah that you could it's so weird now like our culture is so easy and so soft i always meet people who are in their 30s and 40s and they'll be like i've never seen a dead person like you can go through life and not lay eyes on a dead person. I didn't see a dead person I think like real close up until my grandfather died. And then he was – they embalmed him. So it didn't even seem real at all. They had makeup on him.

It's weird. It's really strange. I didn't recognize my grandfather. And they're hard. Death is a rock. And they just seem like these weird empty vessels because what they what they do is what don't they suck you dry i mean yeah they drain you and then they they use formaldehyde i guess and do i mean they do don't they do it

like with like an iv drip or some shit like that yeah i don't even know i don't know how they get in the veins with the formaldehyde i think i want to be crehyde yeah it's fucking gross i want to be just out in the woods man that's what i'd like the most have you ever seen the uh tibetan sky burial yes jamie put up pull up some images of the tibetan sky burial what they do is they uh they take a body and they uh they they quarter it they chop it up they uh smash the bones down and then they leave it out there for the vultures the vultures come in there and essentially pick everything clean if my like i could trust my brothers to do it like i just trust them implicitly right but they'll be old they're older than me so

they'd be too old but i'd be like if i knew someone i could really trust and i said when i die i want you just to take my body out to like an area a lot of bears and stuff and just chop it up real good and just stir it into the ground just you know and like that way even though i'd be dead and wouldn't even know what actually happened it would just be nice to have it be that as i was dying to be like that that that will happen to me would you even want to be uh chopped up because you know i don't want people to stumble across my remains and call 911. Oh, yeah. If they just leave you out there, it's like someone's going to find you,

then they're going to go out there and there's going to be a big investigation. The question about finding animals, about finding dead mountain lions and finding bears, is that because when they know they're going to die, they go somewhere and squirrely and tuck away where no one's going to find them? Is that it? You see them when you get a bad hit on an animal. Right him when you get when you get a bad hit on an animal right right right you get a bad hit on an animal and if he go if he if if you get a hit on an animal with a bow or you know firearm and he lives beyond that initial rush they're usually gonna die tucked away somewhere they go into the thick stuff yeah you know under like you'll find stuff tucked up under junipers i'll just do this year after we went out i was hunting deer in montana

and and found where a uh really a beautiful big buck um i just happened to stumble into it but he had obviously i feel like he'd been hit because he had a he had a perforated antler. Someone had shot at him. My take home. Someone had shot at him and hit that antler with a bullet because he had a big bullet type wound on his antler like a bullet hitting wood but it had cracked

his skull plate. So it didn't kill him immediately. But he was so tucked up under this juniper bush that he just laid up under there to hide like he knew he was vulnerable and just died up there. And I think it happens all the time, man. It seems to make sense, especially hunting. Because they don't want to get hit by a predator. They know they're down.

But what about when predators die, like bears or big cats i found you know i found bear i found bear skulls and i can't i don't i've never found a like a fresh dead enough bear to really tell like what its positioning was when it was dead but i found a number of like remains of bears but never um where i knew that it like this is its spot it had gone to but like i said when you get it if you get a hit on something with a bow and you don't kill the meat like you may be hitting liver hit it somewhere where it's going to live a little while, when you find it, you'll generally find it where it didn't die on the run. It laid down and died. And when they lay down, they're usually pretty careful to get tucked away somewhere.

It can be tough to find stuff. When an animal like this dies, this deer dies, if it left its body behind, would eventually something eat the bones of the head as well? Yeah, you know what you wind up with? You wind up with this right here oftentimes the base yep this is real thick so they can't chew they'll eat this we one time just i remember one so but for the folks at home that are listening what would he uh we're talking about the base of a deer skull so i guess the base is the hard spot but yeah around that frame. You see that more than anything else.

You see like – can I get this where you can see? Yeah. See, the problem is most people are listening and they're not watching. Oh, they're not seeing it. Oh, I'm sorry. Most people are getting this off of iTunes or listening to it on Sirius. So the part you find most often when you see like a kill that's been consumed is you find where the spinal cord enters the skull. of kill that's been consumed is you find where the spinal cord enters the skull that thick boned area right there extending up into around the base of the antlers around a non-antlered game

around horned game extending up to what would be kind of the space up between the ears it's just sick and doesn't get consumed but one time i remember we killed my brother and i killed a cow elk this is in uh in montana southwest montana an area with a lot of grizz and I killed a cow elk. This is in Montana, southwest Montana, an area with a lot of grizzlies. We killed a cow elk and went back a week later to see what had happened, and grizzlies had been on it. They had eaten the hide.

Whoa. They had eaten all the bones. The only part we could find was just a disc of bone with the center of the remaining piece of bone was where the spinal cord passes into the skull, that heavy boned area, the foramen magnum, I think is the word, and a donut-sized chunk of bone like that. And you could tell that it didn't just go away, that it wasn't like it drug it somewhere where we couldn't find it, because you could account for all that hide and all that bone in the shit that was left there it was all there it was like a sound of cubs or something got on it and it was all still there that trip we went and killed another elk and packed that elk out and

we went back up there later on the same thing happened to that one isn't it true that uh grizzlies tend to prefer meat that's kind of rotten too that's yeah as people say like when they kill something when people watch a bear black bear or grizzly make a kill they'll eat that soft tissue first so that they rip his belly open lungs heart liver and generally it's like they'll what they'll do is when they cover it with grass, like some people even say that somehow when they cover it with a little bit of dirt or cover it in grass, AIDS decomposition, and they'll lay around on it. They defecate on it, you know, other things, and they'll eat it as it goes back.

To get the bacteria. So they don't generally, it's said that they don't generally kill it and immediately start eating red meat. Lions, different. Like, lions don't like all that rotten meat. Lions like fresh stuff. But the bears like pretty rotten stuff, man. I remember one time being, again, I can't remember what we were doing. We were hunting for something or another on Prince of Wales Island at the shack we owned.

I remember watching wolves you think of wolves like like eating fresh meat i mean they you know wolf throughout the year it takes seven pounds of meat a day to keep that thing alive but we sat there watching we sat there watching four wolves eating salmon this is after the spawning room this is in the fall and they're eating salmon that are so rotten that they're in a pudding-like consistency, a pudding-like state. And just putrid, like I can't even imagine. Like putrid, like it would take, if you walk through one of these areas, one of these stream miles where all these salmon are laying dead, I have a strong stomach. I would need an hour or two before I could eat.

Really? It was just overpowering. And watching these wolves basically lapping up. That's salmon soup. Putting like salmon rot into a pudding-like consistency. Rotten salmon. You're like, I can try to be an animal. I can like try to think like an animal, be an animal, become animalistic.

Not like that, man. You need serious enzymes in your stomach and mouth to be able to handle that and not get sick, too. Yeah, they can do it. Their whole bodies are designed for that. It's a mystery. They're like the cleanup crew. Yeah. The bears are like the cleanup crew.

The fact that they can eat your bones like that. Yeah, they crush them up, man. They just eat everything. Swallow it all. You know, they say like hyenas, you know, there's a relationship in Africa between like cheetahs and hyenas. Where cheetahs will make a kill, they can't crush the bone. And hyenas can go in, and they can just hang out and wait, because they know that when that's done, they'll be the first in there,

and they can crush bone. And I don't know if this theory is in fashion anymore, but it used to be in fashion, that early hominids, like early humans, seemed to appear in the fossil record outside of Africa at a time that was contemporaneous with the appearance of saber-toothed cats. The thinking being that these saber-toothed cats weren't able to crush bone because of the makeup of their dental structure, their teeth. They couldn't crush bone. And they were really effective predators.

And people have become accustomed to following saber-toothed cats to scavenge bone marrow and things that they left behind. I read this long ago. I don't know if that's been deboned by other finds. A cat. They're leaving kills out there. And if you're like, we always hear the term apex predator.

There's a lot of benefits to being the apex scavenger. Yeah. Which is, after the top dog does what he's going to do, who gets to be there first? Right, how much can they eat of an elk? Yeah, so like, if wolves kill an elk and get what they want off it, there's a big benefit to whoever comes along behind it. Who's ever the apex of the second. You get to stroll up. Yeah, and it's the little guys that come later.

You know what I mean? It's the little guys that come later. But first there's like a coyote hanging there, and he's like, when he's done, I'm in there, man. And then you guys get in line behind me. It's fascinating that there's a balance to that system, that the wolves want the fresh meat, but the bears want the rotten meat. It's fascinating that there's a balance to that system, that the wolves want the fresh meat, but the bears want the rotten meat. It's really interesting. It's amazing how the system is so covered. It's got all the bases covered.

The area where we were, the breaks, the Missouri River, was like the most hostile place for life I think I've ever been to in this country. Wickedly cold, wickedly hot. And not much to eat. Not much there. No, it was a place for carnivores, man. I mean, there's some edible wild plants, but people in there would go in there, and historically, I mean, Lewis and Clark went through there,

and generally people went through there. Generally, people traveling through there would have fantastic luck with hunting. It doesn't look like it. It's still got a lot of animals today, but something about that river, there's just game down there. Things went through there. There's not a lot of water in that area, so it's a reliable place to find water. It's a great place for hunting. In other things, a lot of agricultural practices and stuff, not so great.

But it's always been a place for hunter-gatherers. You clued me into what it used to be, that it used to be a gigantic ocean. And that is really crazy. I'd heard of them finding fossilized ancient teeth of different fish, and I think one of them was a megalodon. You saw the clamshells we were finding. think one of them was a megalodon you saw the clam shells we were finding yeah i was convinced it was a mining operation when we got there see those hills that's for mining oh no man it's a river here the reason the expert over here the

mining expert brian callan that's a classic example of me when i get a little excited i'm like i know everything those are track marks. But it is interesting. They call it the breaks because it was that you're on the bench of the Great Plains, and the Missouri breaks is where the landscape seems to break and crumble away down into the canyon of the Missouri River. And it's just, like, deeply incised. Yeah, there you go.

Yeah, it was a fascinating place, man. The folks, if you don't see this, there's these gray hills. And it's basically these gigantic mountains of silt. And what's really weird is there's, like, patches of timber and stuff inside of them. But as you're climbing it, like, especially after it's rained, it's all mud. All clay. Yeah, it's this weird heavy clay stuff. They call it, it after it's rained. It's all mud. All clay. Yeah, it's this weird, heavy clay stuff. They call it an expandable clay.

It gets wet and swells. And it does seem, you look at it, like you look at the breaks from the water, and it feels like, you use the term loosely, but it feels like you're in the mountains. It's mountainous. But it's almost like the opposite of mountains. It's like mountains would be something that rolls up,

like geologic pressures are pushed up. But the breaks is the opposite of mountains it's like you know mountains would be something that rolls up like like geologic pressures are pushed up but the breaks is the absence of it's like the absence of of topsoil yeah something was like washed away some of the grand canyon like the grand canyon is a very rugged place but it's just because you not that you added stuff you took stuff away well it was easy to climb that stuff like i you'd i'd look back at how much ground me and ryan covered it was like a lot like you'd be like it doesn't seem like you can climb the top of that It was easy to climb that stuff. Like I'd look back at how much ground me and Ryan had covered. It was like a lot. Like you'd be like – it doesn't seem like you can climb to the top of that mountain or whatever it was in front of you. And you could because you could get a foothold.

Yes, it's nice that way. You know what I mean? Until it gets wet and it's hell, man. But one of the things that I just realized is that how difficult it is to actually keep warm unless you're moving. But when you stop moving and you're outside, it kicks your ass. I mean did you spend a lot of time cold or you seem like you're moving but when you stop moving you know and you're outside it kicks your ass i mean did you spend a lot of time cold or you you seem like yeah no no i get cold and it's that's the thing like that's just a basic survival element that it's like when you're out and conditions are poor you know and you have you know especially cold with humidity, like it was overcast.

It was a little bit wet feeling. Even though it's a very arid, dry area, it was a little bit, there was a lot of humidity on our trip. It's just like the only time you're comfortable is when you're out and moving. But it's a little bit paradoxical because when you get cold and uncomfortable, your inclination is to huddle into yourself. And so it's like harder to get out of your bag in the morning. You're kind of like paralyzed by the cold and paralyzed by the young like how uncomfortable you are but you notice that the minute you start hiking up a hill yeah you feel great and you could be out there all day

and you're having a good time and you stop and you feel like hell and and when you feel like hell it gets it's like hard to get motivated to do it again and i think that something that comes from spending a lot of time uncomfortable it's just you get in your head that you just got to move and i think that when it's when i've hunted in really cold weather you try not to do anything sitting you get up in the morning and you go immediately from your sleeping bag to be moving and when it's time to eat you just stop for a minute and eat while moving you would never like stop for me all the time yes because like you just gotta be on the move man so that's the only way you're going to be able to deal with it. It's the only time you'll feel cold.

You feel great. One of the things that we talked about when we did this trip was that I was never tired during the day where I wanted to take a nap or something. I had a very different energy. The idea of getting up in the morning and just hiking around all day but yet all the time

completely alert, all the time completely like we were wide awake whereas like you know if you're you have a regular job or whatever you do after five or six hours you're like oh get me the fuck out of here you start yawning and stretching i didn't ever feel like i needed to take a nap and we got in this really weird regular cycle where we're going to bed at like eight o'clock and i would go right to sleep and i'd wake up early in the morning it was like it was like this weird sort of natural cycle that you it's also the first time we'd ever been living by natural light not only natural light but we we weren't around any of our beeping gadgets nothing i wonder if that has something to do with it oh fuck yeah it does radio frequency i think i think it's a huge part, man. I think you find something. I mean, just think about, just in a sense, like how much we were just, like our physical beings were shaped by that lifestyle.

You know, of operating according to daylight hours, you know, being out in search of food. I don't mean to get all like, you know. New agey. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean to get all like nostalgia new age those are good words for it but when you're out doing that kind of thing you're out like hunting on the land using your senses looking for food you you start making sense to yourself you know i think it's so you could be like it's safe to say that there's something about me that really thrives on this.

It's like there's something about me that just likes this kind of routine. I think most people find it. A primal thing that's just ingrained in our system that from the hunter-gatherer days of war, it's like all a part of us. I think there's like – I mean just think about what we know about just like selective pressures. There's an enormous amount of selective pressure on being able to do that kind of stuff i think that now people would argue that the new life we have now in technology we have we're under new kinds of selective pressures you know there's probably right now those of us who are going to thrive you know um those of us are going to thrive are adapted to a technological society but now it's not it's not tied in now to birth you know

it used to be that we had such low life expectancies and high mortality rates that those the people that could thrive the really good hunters were the ones that were having that access to females they had young now you know it's kind of a given that that you're going to have reproductive possibilities yeah you can be the biggest loser in the world and not do anything and you still get people pregnant yeah and have kids. So I think that selective pressures don't work on us now like they used to. But for a long time, we were shaped by you had to be a productive member of your culture. You had to be a productive member of your clan in order to have the kind of cash aid

that was necessary to be able to breed women. When I lived in Massachusetts, it was my fishing phase. I went to a phase in my childhood where I'd go fishing every day. I was a member of the Bass Angler Sportsman Society, the whole deal. I spent all my free time fishing for a couple of years. Loved it. And it was some fucking visceral thrill, I think,

of hooking one of my first fishes. You know what fishes? I said fishes. Fish. Fish. I know what it is, stupid. Fishes. But that visceral thrill whatever it was it was so shocking to me you know that to this day

like um i'll look back and think of that i'm like that's got to be some like ancient dna shit like he got the fish yeah it was like it's like gambling like you don't know what's going to come around the next corner when i saw my first buck, I think it was the third day, I got so excited. From where I looked at it, it looked like it was a world record buck. It was a 50-point buck. Literally, I went, there's a buck, there's a buck. And I had that thing in my scope, and my scope was moving around so much because I got so heated and adrenaline- adrenaline up that I had buck fever.

I could not shoot that deer. Oh, really? No. I was like – and Ryan had to grab that. He was like, you're going to injure it. Because I was going to start squeezing rounds off blindly, which is wrong. Yeah, yeah. But I was so excited.

And then you get addicted to that. Not only – the other thing you get addicted to is like when you look – when you glass, when you take your binoculars and you're looking out, looking for like an antler or an ear or anything. Glass. You start looking at things more intensely and differently like you have almost new eyes like you're looking at things you know the way you don't usually look at things you're paying attention to everything and i think that keys you in it keys you in you just you start forgetting about yourself that's kind of refreshing you yeah you see stuff like to to look to look out to be on the look for

game like you're out there ostensible you're looking for deer but you everything starts to pop to you yeah because you're paying attention to things and also another thing i think about all the time like in a place like the breaks is because the landscape might seem to some people uh redundant you know it's like a lot of the same thing it's just like row upon row upon row of a hill that looks this way and sandstone bluffs and it's like everything like looks the same but what you're looking for through all that is just like little subtle differences and i think it's like the lack of activity at some times helps you hone in and look at things much more carefully i think it'd be that if you if you ever notice if you walk into a really crowded um shopping center or walk into like you know you're going to like

walk through time square or something you get to the other end and you sometimes realize you didn't ever actually really look at anything yeah because you were just it's like it was so much you came away with impressions like a sense of noise a sense of what you saw like snippets but there's nothing you ever like like detailed in on it and when you're in those places and i would argue that like the arctic is a little bit this way i think you know areas of montana this way it's just like a place that people might look at and be like oh it's just nothing it's just grass right you know but when there's a deer out on that you can focus in on that thing and experience that thing in a way that you just don't get to do. To an alien, the difference between a human life living and walking through a mall, that experience, and the epidemic of people who have hypervigilant central nervous systems and have become weirdly autistic might be that we're evolving because human beings today experience more stimulus in one day than they did in a lifetime.

It only makes sense. I agree with that. I mean how else could you process the information that just comes from a television? What are you designed to really see? You're not really designed to sit in front of a fucking television and take in Lord of the Rings. You're not really designed for that. That's all these signals that are firing off your reward systems

and getting your dopamine levels and your adrenaline levels up and you're getting engaged in the action. That's a crazy thing. It's almost like it's a step away from a simulated reality, but it's really moving in that direction. You get these gigantic thrill rushes from a giant television. It's weird, weird stuff when you stop and think about the impact that it has on the way we visualize our world.

Because so many people visualize their world as if it's some sort of like a plot in a movie. They see the whole thing like a plot in a movie. Do we talk about the Unabomber's Manifesto? Yeah, we did. There's some interesting elements to that. I remember I took this class in college called, I think it was just called Political Rhetoric.

We read various pieces, everything from Martin Luther King to the Unabomber. And the Unabomber had this point that I was – you know, it was messed up as a guy. He had this point that resonated with me where he talked about – he looked at levels of difficulty. And there would be – I can't remember what way it went, if it went up or down. But let's just say a level one difficulty was no matter how hard you try, you'll fail. Okay, that's like absolute difficult. There'd be level two is like, if you try super, super hard, you have a slight chance of success. On down to, if you don't try at all, you'll still succeed. Okay, it would be

like these five levels of difficulty. And he's like, his gripe with technology was that technology had brought human existence to the level five. It's like, you don't even have to try to succeed. You're just going to be alive now. You're going to be alive, you'll reproduce. You don't need to do anything. It's just, you're just taken care of.

We've got food surpluses, social safety nets, everything. And he argued that all of our, as neurotic as he was, he argued that all of our like all of our as neurotic as he was he argued that all of our neuroses came from that all that energy we were supposed to be spending to maybe survive you know was just now spent running amok in our brain we couldn't handle the free we can't handle the free time yeah the technology allows us and that's why he advocated for like this. Human beings definitely. You know,

this reactionary existence where you can go back to like this, you know, an agrarian. Yeah. Well, I just try to get your black belt in jujitsu. Yes. Bingo.

That's what I'm talking about. I think you can, you can avoid goals. Yes. Yes. You need tasks. You need things to do. I'm most happy when I'm going like this.

That's what I'm most happy when I'm going like this. That's when I'm most happy when I'm going. I'm with you. If I'm not involved in something, if something's not stimulating me, whether it's training, doing something different, trying something. The hunting experience was a perfect example of that. The ability to go and do the show and what you guys brought to the table was so much better than anything we could have ever come up with on our own. I mean the idea that you were going to take us in this fucking five-day camping thing with no cell phones and no internet connection. That's completely different than anything we would have ever done. If we just said, all right, let's go hunting.

What do you want to do? We would have probably – We would have bailed. Yeah, if if we both caught a deer we'd be like oh time to go home yeah it's raining dude this sucks let's go eat let's go get some steak i'm so glad we didn't i'm so glad looking back on it just took five days the first day we get there pouring rain and i knew it was fucking for real when we stopped at the one of the spots where lewis and clark camped you know that what you That – if you have any sense of history at all and you're sort of trying to take this in, like how bizarre it really is that several hundred years ago before the inventions of radio and the camera, there were some fucking people that were traveling across the entire river.

They were going down the Missouri River. They were traveling across the whole country and they were right there camping where you're gonna camp and it's still like there's some notable things that are different but it still is kind like kind of the same very reminiscent of it and there's a friend there's a writer i've always admired a lot the writer ian frazier and and and he he's written a lot about the american west and and we were on that river one time and he was just saying like he just likes it that it happened. You know, like, there's places like Lewis and Clark came here

and camped here, and he's like, and then nothing ever really happened ever again. Yeah, yeah. You know? And when I think about that, I often, like, point out, you can go to sites, you can go to places. I was at this, I was one time, I was, it's funny because I was on the phone with Ian Frazier one time,

and I was telling him, he said, where are you? And I was in New York and we were trying to meet up. And I explained to him that I was out in front of this bar, like the White Horse or something. And he's like, you know, Dylan Thomas drank himself to death and died, right? He's like, what corner are you on? I said, well, I'm at this and such. I've been in that booth. And he's like, yeah, Dylan Thomas, like, collapsed, like, drank himself to death

there. And on one hand, it's like, wow, that's amazing. But then you think, it's like, wow, that's amazing. But then you think like all the other stuff that happened, you know, people getting hit by cars and like, you know, people getting broken up with and falling in love and like all these layers upon layers of other activities that went on there. In some way, it dilutes it. You know, it becomes hard to picture. But to camp where Lewis and Clark camped and look at it and go like, no, I get it, man. It's not abstract for me. I can understand we were kind of even though it was on their mind

even though we had stoves and stuff you're still kind of living and feeling what they were feeling the cold the boat in the morning darkness ryan callahan just texted me heard us talking about him no he didn't get a chance to listen to the podcast yet. I'm sure it was great. He's a good man. Yeah, that's funny. But that was for us. But it's very similar. Get in the boat. Cover some ground in the boat.

Get out. Pitch camp. Try to secure meat through hunting. Yeah. Get back in the boat. Pitch camp. Yeah, all in all, we went, what was it, 40-something miles down the river? Yeah, it was 38 or 40.

No, more than that. We went a long way because I remember that trip back, me and Toad back. I was so cold. And Dan Doty was really cold. I go, what's wrong with you? He goes, I'm really cold. I pulled a sleeping bag out of my –

and we just wrapped up because it was like 12 degrees. It was kind of ridiculous. I was watching that. It was so cold. It was 12 degrees and I was such a baby. I'm like, what? You know what? I got lucky.

I was with him and he told me American Indian stories the whole way. And you stayed warm. It didn't even bother me, man. I'm like, you know what? I got lucky. I was with him and he told me American Indian stories the whole way. And you stayed warm. It didn't even bother me, man. I'm telling you. Eight hours of American Indian stories or whatever the fuck it was. But cold ground water

is different than cold ground water. It's like the minute something's wet, it's just like the intrusion of water. You get a little bit of moisture in your gloves. It just becomes a different game. I was watching those guys play football in the playoffs in Denver, and it was minus three with the windchill factor. They were playing football in short sleeves.

And Ray Lewis is sitting there in short sleeves. Even on the bench, he's just sitting there like this going, just thinking to himself. I'm like, dude, you got no sleeves on. It's minus three with the windchill. Are you serious? Yes. What was the actual temperature?

It was nine degrees. Oh, so it was cold, cold. Cold, cold. Cold, cold. And then minus three with the windshield. Are you serious? Yes. What was the actual temperature? It was nine degrees. Oh, so it was cold, cold. Cold, cold. Cold, cold. And then minus three with the windshield. And these guys are out in short sleeves hitting each other. They can still play like that? Hitting each other.

Hitting each other. That ball's got to sting your hands at that time. You think? They have gloves on. Oh, there you go. No, no. The river is so fucking shallow in some spots. That's the one thing that was really surprising is that we would bottom out.

Yeah. I was like, this is a really fragile ecosystem. that's one thing that's probably a lot of difference of course that river is heavily dammed now so we were in that area you got dams above you and you got dams below you so but i mean you used to be able to run it with riverboats like paddle wheel boats right but it was it was a confusion of channels it took a lot of skill to be able to navigate but there was a continuous navigable channel and when you dam those rivers now you get a lot of sedimentation so the river would at times get scoured out you know you get a mat you get a big flood in the spring you know snow's coming out of the mountains coming out of the out of the yellowstone area and stuff it would come down there and just gouge that area and carry all that sediment away.

But the dams do flood control, you know, flood control, and they form another function, erosion control. So you get built up over time just mud, silt in that river. And so the river is a lot different than it used to be. And the river... As much as some of the surrounding topography is very similar and in some ways, in some regards, untouched. That river is now a creation of damming.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And the river goes to the ocean? That river heads. When Lewis and Clark, we were talking about it earlier, Lewis and Clark. So Lewis and Clark, when they got dispatched on their trip and they went up, I can't remember if they left in 1802 or 1804.

1802 or 1804.2 or 1804 they went up and one of the things they had many tasks that they were supposed to do but one of the primary tasks jefferson gave them was to find the headwaters of the missouri so people knew you know they knew the missouri was a major artery but where did the missouri begin and wherever it began was there a viable way to go up and over out to the pacific when they went up they found the headwaters of montana or the missouri just upstream from where we were and the headwaters they discovered were three rivers they named they named the jefferson um the gallatin and the madison so it was the secretary of state secretary of treasury and the president i think

is what it was they named those three. And that's what heads that river. So those rivers head, like the Yellowstone heads up in Yellowstone Lake, Yellowstone National Park. I'm sorry, the Yellowstone goes another way. But the Missouri and Jeff head in Montana, and then they go and flow all the way out to the Gulf of Mexico. People now argue. We were so familiar with the mississippi that we the mississippi was named we didn't know that much about the missouri because you know people have been dinking around the mississippi long before they were Europeans have been messing around the

mississippi long before the missouri hydrologists later and geologists later argued that the mississippi wasn't named properly that by any estimation it would be that the missouri picked up the mississippi and not vice versa that where those two it would be that the Missouri picked up the Mississippi and not vice versa. Where those two rivers came together, like the Missouri is a true continental river. It's draining all the way from the mountains of Montana out to the Gulf of Mexico, and the Mississippi heads like up in Minnesota, you know. So they argue that that's actually what went on. So the Mississippi is now the Mississippi by name, but in like a physical sense where you're looking,

the Mississippi is the Missouri. I think the riverboat gambling is one of the craziest ideas ever, that they would allow you to gamble if you got in something floating and then they just pushed you out there. It has to be on state lines, though, right? Isn't it ridiculous? What does that mean? So it's got to be in between state lines?

Yes. So it's like a neutral limbo land? You're in like a no man's land. Yeah, it's like you're in like a no man's land because it's bordered by, you know, it's like you have one state on one side

and one state on the other side. I've always proposed that. I think that we should have a gray area between all states where you could do anything you want. You just, you could eat mushrooms,

you can get a hooker, you can do whatever you want. Anything shy of murder and robbery. Yeah. Just a wild west gray area where there's very few laws. It would be so crowded. Just to try it.

Everybody knows. It would be so crowded. Everybody knows where it is. You can look across the Mississippi. Why does that get to be the lawless zone? Like the Great Lakes, you can't even see it. It could be a massive area of utter lawlessness, but there's no like – you can't go out there and do crazy stuff that you can't do on the bank. Yeah, but I'm just saying a little gray area.

You've got to get on a boat. That would be – you could have a whole resort out in the middle of the state. On boats or just on land too? Just on land. Anywhere where there's a border. It's fucking – who knows? You just have towns. You just have Tijuana.

You just have Tijuana towns. Well, you know the idea is being bandied about by some really rich investors that they want to build an artificial city that floats and they want to put it out in international waters and the idea something like that that they would be able to do this and make their own utopian society they're tired of this nonsense, this libertarian

ideals, everybody wants everybody who joins this venture to be able to support themselves and decide as a community that we could all work this out they're gonna make a gigantic island and push that bitch out into the ocean wow but good luck not getting robbed there's a couple problems yeah exactly yeah exactly yeah don't do it in the indian ocean well dude don't dudes get like fucking kidnapped all the time that's why i don't see it that's why like oh we went sailing in the caribbean in the indian ocean well dude don't dudes get like fucking kidnapped all the time that's why like oh we went sailing in the caribbean in the indian ocean listen dude people get people

get robbed killed and raped and thrown overboard all the time not me man i'm gonna say ocean if i have a couple navy vessels full of navy seals following me around otherwise i don't understand people are so trusting like we went there like not me my parents lived in the bahamas on a sailboat they lived there for a while they uh they took a sailboat from florida all the way down to the bahamas and lived in various spots on the sailboat and i was like you guys are fucking after you were after you were gone or before you were around i wasn't i was can't be i don't want to be in the middle of the ocean with no backup and you know some pirates come up happens It happens all the time. It definitely can happen.

I mean the odds are pretty small if you look at how many ships are out there. But if it happens, you're fucked and it could happen. I'm afraid of the ocean. Some rich couple get kidnapped really recently. It happens all the time. There's always some new stories. Because I grew up in a landlocked state, man. For me, for my – you guys might have had that

feeling of uh you know like being in the break she had that feeling of kind of like not overwhelmed but like like humbled by the landscape in some way for me like i'm so new to maritime stuff that for me to be out on the ocean like i didn't grow up like looking out at an ocean yeah i mean and for like for me now when i'm out on the ocean, I'm always like, this is serious business, man. You know what I mean? I get that feeling of just like, holy cow, man. It's unbelievable. When you get out where you can't see land to me, that's when I start getting that like a very nice, uncomfortable feeling.

My buddy used to, for a living, used to take rich guys. They'd buy a sailboat and then you'd have to sail it to them wherever they were. they'd buy a sailboat and then you'd have to sail it to them wherever they were but the problem was in the that when you do a winter run along the atlantic that's storm season so very few people want to actually take the sailboat when you buy in the winter and bring it to you because they're going to get caught in storms my buddy did that my buddy used to just like and he'd take a 32 foot yacht and he got caught in a storm off of San Francisco in the winter. It was at night, and he had strapped himself in, and he was trying to turn the boat

because he was getting 20-foot swells that were submerging the boat. So he would get submerged under the ocean and then pop out. Oh, really? And he did that for 14 hours. And not only did he do it 14 hours alone, but he had his crew underground because he was the captain. For 14 hours he did that, and he radioed for a guy to get him, but the guy wasn't experienced enough. So then they had to radio a guy who did it a lot in Alaska to tow them back in.

And they finally get that guy on the phone. I guess he flies in. He gets in his boat now. He goes out, hooks onto him, and tows him to safety. 14 hours at night. I said, how did you know to look? He goes, I would have to hear. I'd have to listen for when the swell was going to hit me because I couldn't see it.

Oh, my God. So I'd have to listen. I hear just – and I go – and it was just – and I said, were you cold? He goes, fuck yeah. he was in a wetsuit he goes fuck yeah you're cold you're really cold man your face and hands feel like they're gonna fall off yeah growing up near the ocean you get you get too used to it you get you don't you don't really take it into consideration how crazy it is but i had a friend from oklahoma never saw the ocean before and we were in texas and he went to the ocean and he was like he had just gotten back from the moon you know i mean he

might as well have been on another planet i asked my friend if he wears a life jacket he goes well there are two different schools i go what do you mean he goes some dude don't some i don't said why he goes well i believe that um if you get washed overboard you're probably injured to begin with it's much better just to drown really quickly than to sit there and die of hypothermia for 16 hours later. He said – or sharks can get you. He said they can be right on top of you. They're not going to find you a lot of times. My friend who went to the ocean, he had to take a cigarette before he described it.

Like he sat down. He goes, man. He lit his cigarette, took a big breath. He goes, where do I begin, man? He had to conjure his most descriptive powers. Yeah, to him because he was in his 30s. To him in his 30s to just see the ocean for the first time. He really doesn't leave Oklahoma much.

All of a sudden he's in Houston, made a trip down to the ocean. He's standing out there watching it. It's like, you know, it's got to really fuck your mind. I hope I'm not saying something out of turn, but David Blaine his his trick he wanted to cross the pacific in a bottle and so the problem was he went out on a catamaran in a really thick storm and people were like getting bandied about bleeding knocked out and he he's like i'm good with any of that he doesn't care then he then he got in the water with great whites he's got video of him swimming with great i don't i don't want to tell too much i hope he doesn't you know but anyway the point is that that the guy said sam sheridan who uh who just by

the way his book is great sam sheridan goes dude if you get caught in a bottle you if you were in a bottle in the pacific you can get caught in a storm for 72 hours because he's crossed you'd be tossing around in that bottle for 72 hours. That's a shitty way to die. That's a shitty way to die. Yeah, because you're not going to be able to keep up with the rolls for 72 hours. You're eventually going to get dropped in your head. You're going to nod out for a second,

and you're going to get elevated and dropped in your fucking head, and you're going to hit that thick glass wall, and it's going to cave your stupid face in. You know, I got a friend that I wrote about in my first book who grew up in san diego and he one of his first jobs he worked on a tuna boat and went out and the tuna boat sank and one of the guys he's with drowned he stayed he stayed on a hatch covered with a guy he was moored with drowned and he managed to keep this guy's body with him oh my god eventually they were pulled out and he was just done with he went to he went to vet school didn't go back out in the ocean anymore and change his birth date to the day change his birth date to the day that he uh

got plucked out and now celebrates that as his birthday oh that's hilarious yeah so now like every year he has a big party on the day he got plucked out of the ocean and he's a liar he's a he's a veterinarian up in saint and uh he's a veterinarian up in saint helena in the napa valley now he's just like i'm done with the water man wow good for him fuck the ocean ocean the ocean can suck it the ocean's fucking terrifying, man. That's hilarious. Yeah. But, Landon, man, thanks again, man. Thanks for taking us there.

We had the fucking time of our lives. It was good, man. I look forward to getting you guys back out. That's a sweet-looking rack. Yeah, it's awesome. And you know what? People are down. Can I say one last thing?

Yeah, please. The issue of hunting trophies always comes up, you know? And I decorate my home with skulls and antlers and horns and stuff like that. And people are down on trophy hunting. But I think that experience like that, like you went out, you had a legit hunt, you ate all the meat. It's like now that thing becomes like an emblem of a lot more. And it's like I think trophies are cool.

I think that having something like that, it's like one word for it would be a trophy and another word would be like a memento or a talisman. I don't know. It's just like you'll always look at it and remember that. He took a lot of cactus quills for that. Yeah, man. You'll always look at it and remember a whole set of experiences. It's not some shallow thing like, oh, I'm such a man that I'm now going to pose his head up.

Right. No, I didn't think of it that way at all. There's so much controversy attached, I don't have to tell you this this to the hunting experience to the idea of uh killing your own food there's so much craziness on both sides you know the but the the people that are uh anti-hunting are the people that even that eat meat and wear leather and are still anti-hunting it's it's shocking how many of those people there are it's such a weird thing i can completely completely understand your wife's point of view, not wanting to go and do the killing yourself. But the idea that there's something wrong with the people who do it. One of the things that I saw about this Newtown, Connecticut thing, one of the tweets that I read, I read a lot of crazy tweets.

But one of them I read where this guy said, if you're a hunter, tough shit, get a new hobby, no guns. And it was like hashtag no guns. Yeah. And I was like, what kind of fucking – what kind of crazy nonsense is that? If you're a hunter, get a new hobby. The idea that these people are willing to get – because of crazy people, whatever many – to get all rights to own firearms stripped away to the point where you can't hunt anymore and the idea that someone would just propose that tim ferris had a problem with voting the problem with voting is that guy gets to vote too well tim ferris posted a cool article by somebody i can't remember who

was and i read it and it was about said guns actually have a lot to do with why there isn't a lot of violence they neutralize violence in some ways it's sometimes in the sense that if you don't have guns you the guy with the biggest knife and the strongest guy is going to do with why there isn't a lot of violence. They neutralize violence in some ways. It's sometimes in the sense that if you don't have guns, the guy with the biggest knife and the strongest guy is going to do what he wants. And guns have always been sort of in a society, they keep the strongest guy with a knife from raping somebody in front of 12 people. Somebody's going to shoot that fucking guy.

Yeah, I mean you can't have society in this form without some form of weaponry. You have to be able to protect people against aggressive people from somewhere else. That's right. Whether it's a local threat or a threat on a boat from another fucking country like Columbus and his boys. Yeah. I mean that's just – if you can't control them, if you can't stop them, they overcome the same way the Europeans overcame the American Indians. I mean it's really the same exact thing you're talking about.

You're talking about people being overcome by other people. That's right. There's only one way to prevent that. With technology. People that are armed. That's the only way to prevent that is the threat of retaliation is too strong for one band of evil people to just go in and take over a town or whatever with guns. Yeah.

Because otherwise, how could you stop it? If the whole world was disarmed, then you're talking about some sort of – Look at Africa. Look at the Congo right now with people like Joseph Kony and his group and stuff who come in. They've got military-grade weapons. They come into a village where nobody has any weapons. Do whatever they want. Yeah, that's mayhem. I mean the utopia obviously would be no one has guns.

If you go hunting, then you use guns I guess. Yeah, but by the way – Is that the utopia obviously would be no one has guns. And, you know, if you go hunting, then you use guns, I guess. Yeah, but by the way, what if you did have that? Then you'd have guys like Shane Carlin and Nate Marquardt who would be the kings and call the shots because I'm not going to fight those guys. We'd have to band together as like six guys and be like, let's go. So it's better to have – it's sort of a balancing act. It's better to have some sort of an ability to defend yourself physically and then society can move on. And if you can't defend yourself physically just because of your mere size or you're dealing with some Shaquille O'Neal type dude that you just physically – there's nothing you can do about it, then a gun comes into play. Well, they always say that – they say conflict resolution in any society becomes paramount.

Like in a society, you have to have a mechanism for conflict resolution because inevitably there will be conflict among men. And so how you mete out justice and how you keep order is very important for any society if you think about it. Inevitably. Inevitably there's going to be conflict. I think the thing we're missing is teaching young kids how to fight i really do i think it's a gigantic piece of the puzzle that we're missing in the way we raise human beings i'm not saying everybody needs it i'm not saying it should be required but i'm saying that having it like readily available all the time for kids in school to teach them a way to get out their aggression and to i mean

not yeah not not just necessarily defense but also just like dealing with I think it would stop bullying I really do I think if you taught kids martial arts it would stop almost all bullying because kids would be involved in competition and when they're involved in competition not thinking about picking on weak people thinking about how to advance their game so they can compete

whether it's jujitsu or wrestling or boxing or any of those martial sports, I think if you teach as many people as you can how to do it, you're going to have a much more polite society. That outlet is very strong. That's why they say video games are so popular. It's an outlet for aggression, for war games. Yeah, but our problem in this country is not a gun problem.

In my opinion, everybody keeps saying it's a gun problem. Guns are a part of a mental health problem. It's a mental health problem. I would say so, but people look at that as being something they can achieve easily. But the thing that I've been thinking a lot about lately on the issue is that it's the way that people look at constitutional freedoms. I think there's a reluctance on the right. There's traditionally this reluctance to sort of disregard First Amendment liberties sometimes. And on the left, there's this tendency to want to disregard Second Amendment liberties.

And in the same way that someone – this guy said, oh, you know what? If you hunt tough, figure something out. You could look and say, you know what? The internet is used for all these things and 9-11 plotters communicated over the internet and various things so if you use the internet you know for communication screw you we're getting rid of it you know it was like no one would ever make the case like it can be used for evil therefore it should go away you know it's just not it's a very good point you you want to be in a situation where i'm like for me it's like first amendment stuff is extremely important to me.

Second Amendment issues are extremely important to me. I feel that just to do reactionary measures against our amendment rights and thinking we're going to solve some problem isn't right. The same way I don't think it's right to suppress freedom of speech in order to solve a problem that might have come out of the right of assembly or that might have come out of freedom of the press, that someone incited violence through the press so they should be shut down nor do i think that you know firearms owners should be shut down i think it's a very complicated issue i think it also fosters some cookie cutter type thinking sometimes where the people on the left just follow that predetermined pattern of

behavior and people on the right follow that yeah no one is you know it's excited yeah everybody's taking a side on it and i think as opposed to approaching it as a problem to solve. Look, there's obviously something going on. What is the problem? Is the problem that everybody has guns? That way you can't stop – I mean everyone would shoot the guy if he tried to run into a school and shoot people. Is that the solution or is the solution that you have to pull all the guns out of people's homes and then only the military has the guns? Well, the people aren't going to be comfortable with that either. So what is the correct solution?

And how much is mental health taken into it? How much are SSRIs and whatever these fucking antidepressants are doing to disturb people? There's a lot of people out there that need antidepressants. It makes their life better. I've heard that. I believe it. But I also know Phil Hartman. I knew Phil Hartman very well.

And his wife was on antidepressants when she shot and killed him and then killed herself. So I know that it – and they want a settlement with Zoloft. I know that stuff creates psychotic behavior. I know it does. It's pretty much proven. When you start having to pay off giant sums, it's pretty proven that there's something fucked up going on with antidepressants and the human mind. It's not always, mind it's not always but it's see it's not everybody i think there's people that their brain is just not set up correctly i think there's

a whole bunch of people in this world where they got a shitty roll of the dice and their brain is just not working good and i think if you want to medicate those people and just start throwing chemicals at the problem, you might not always be doing the right thing. And when you do that and you have a really disturbed individual like it's in the case of over and over again with some of these shooters, the hypothesis is that these drugs are allowing these kids to much more easily perform horrific tasks because they've sort of changed reality. Their body chemistry? more easily perform horrific tasks because they've sort of changed reality their bodies

chemistry yeah well the way the way they interact with the mind that they allow you to accept things in a way that you would normally have like giant red psychological flags going off left and right instead it just allows you to like deal with shit and that's one of the ways that for some folks it helps them overcome depression you know it's like these things are very unusual because one of the things i've learned talking to my friends that uh are on these uh antidepressants including people that absolutely need them and then people who've tried them and gave them away is that they never know exactly which one's going to work for you and they'll switch medications on you like okay let's try this how's that one and then a lot of it is just everybody's got a

different setup and what works for you might not work for him. And the only way to tell is they've got to fucking try shit out on you. I have a real hard time with that when you're dealing with psychotic people that might have access to assault rifles. Sure. Like when you have that, those things together, and then you find out that 90 percent of all these school shootings are either someone who's on withdrawal from SSRIs or someone who's on them. 90 percent. And not only that. They were talking – they had these mental health experts on. are either someone who's on withdrawal from SSRIs or someone who's on them. 90%. And not only that. They were talking – they had these mental health experts on.

They were talking about how – like Jared Loftner, the guy who shot the Arizona – Yeah. He had been symptomatic for 10 years. Oh, yeah. I mean he was psychotic and symptomatic. And it was very clear that – and the problem was he said that there's – in the law, you can't incarcerate somebody against their will unless they are – I would love to hear this. We we've got to wrap this up.

It's three o'clock. Or rather, it's three hours in. And at three hours in, the show turns into a pumpkin. Here we go. What happens is the audio, when it gets too long, gets fucked somehow in the process. So the only way we can do it is three hours. Yeah, so we turn into a pumpkin. We want to thank Onnit.com for sponsoring the podcast.

If you go to O-N-N-I-T and use the code name Rogan, you will save 10% off any and all supplements. We also want to thank Audible.com. And if you go to Audible.com forward slash Joe, you will get 30 free days and a one free audio book. And thanks Steve Rinella.

And you can follow Stephen Rinella on Twitter. It's not PH like a pussy. It's V, V, like a vampire. Steven Rinella. Follow him on Twitter and pick up his excellent book, which I'm really enjoying, by the way, Meat Eaters. You're a really good descriptive writer, man. You really bring people into the moment.

It's a great book. I really, really enjoy it. I appreciate you saying that. It's called Meat Eater. And look, we're going to do this again. The show is going to air sometime in April, right? Yes, sir. So come back again. We'll do another one of these fucking podcasts. Awesome. I'll bring some bear meat and deer meat and whatnot. Yeah, man.

Beautiful. Mail us that smoked bear meat. Yeah, and thanks for taking us out again, man. We had the time of our lives. Can't wait to do it again. And so go buy his book, you fucks. And is it available on Audible? Do they have an audio version? No, man, they don't. I looked for it.

I had to read it. Such a bummer. My last book was audio, but the audio thing, I don't know. People are kind of backing away from it in a weird way. All right, you dirty freaks. Tomorrow, Opie from Opie and Anthony, Greg Hughes, will be here. And then Wednesday, the great Duncan Trussell will join us. So thank you, and that's the end of the show.

So go find some other shit to do. Holla.