The Joe Rogan Experience - #388 - Mick West, Bryan Callen

Episode Date: September 2, 2013

Mick West is a game programmer, writer, and debunker. Currently runs a few websites including MetaBunk.org and ContrailScience.com. Bryan Callen is an actor, stand-up comedian, and host of his own podcasts: The Bryan Callen Show and The 10-Minute Podcast, with co-hosts Will Sasso and Chris D'Elia.

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Hello my friends, we're talking to the great Brian Callen, who will be at Charlie Goodnight's this weekend in North Carolina, if you're listening to this live or within the next couple of days. And then we're also talking to Mick West. Mick West is a guy who came on to my podcast, or my television show, rather, the sci-fi Joe Rogan Questions Everything, where we wanted to discuss a bunch of issues. And then I found out that he has a website that is devoted entirely to debunking things.

I'd known about your website before, Contrail Science. Is it ContrailScience.org or.com?.com. And I'd read that. I'll write this down. Cont before, Contrail Science. Is it contrailscience.org or.com? I'd read that. I'll write this down, Contrail. Contrail Science. And it's very detailed and very easy the way it explains what certain people are misconstruing for being poisonous spray that's coming out of planes and what's actually an effect of jet airplanes flying through clouds. And that explanation, I remember reading that going,

oh, that totally makes sense. Like, I get it. They're seeing it come out of the plane, and they think that this has never happened before or that this is a new thing. This is geoengineering. They're spraying over our head. They're not telling us about it.

And they want to think that it's geoengineering. That's like the big one, that they're geoengineering. That's the main explanation that people... What would be geoengineering? Well, here's what's fucked. What's fucked is they are. Trying to cool the planet? I mean, it's not that they're doing it on purpose but we are doing it. By flying and making those

clouds it is geoengineering. One of the things that I really enjoy about what you're doing is that you have a very specific sort of mandate and the idea is to expose these silly ideas so that you can concentrate on real ones. And when you were talking about chemtrails, one of the things that really struck me was that, was that how much time and effort is spent on things that can be debunked and how they really distract from things like the NSA tapping into all your emails and being able to monitor anyone's phone.

Those are like real issues. Yeah, and the people who are into chemtrails and things like that, a lot of them are very energetic people. Yes. They just spend a lot of time doing this stuff, and they could be spending that time on real issues. Yeah, and it's not that this is the big one. It's not that no one has ever experimented on the public before.

For sure they have. We know about the Tuskegee experiment. We know that they sprayed that shit out of the top of buildings in St. Louis. We know that they've experimented with things that probably weren't the healthiest for the population. But when you start calling everything you see in the clouds a conspiracy and everything you see when a jet engine passes through, without really looking into the possible details of it. It gets to be almost like a religion. It is, yeah.

It is, yeah. I think that's... People, they have that same, that faith, basically, that what they believe is correct, and they don't actually need the evidence to back that up. So if you ask them, you know, where's the evidence, they say, it's obvious, and they just say, look up at the sky. It's like people who have religious experiences. They pray to God, and God tells them that they are right. People in the chemtrail community,

a lot of people in the chemtrail community, have this religious sense of being very sure about their ideas. And they have basically gone beyond evidence. In the post-evidence stage, a lot of them talk about how the time for proving chemtrails is past because we know it's happening, it's obvious. So it's very difficult to deal with those people, to talk to them because they don't want to listen to the evidence. They're now moving on to the next stage. Aren't you describing a fanatic in a sense?

Well, they are fanatical in their belief. Yeah. The idea that I can no longer be challenged. The debate has been settled and now it's just a question of whether you are a convert or you are an enemy. I mean, that's kind of the idea. Yeah. So for those type of people, I tried to frame the discussion a bit differently. You need to ask them, like, what would be the next stage? And you're not going to start shooting down planes, even though some people do actually talk about shooting down planes. I've got a whole long thread on the forum of people who, you know, say things like, let's long thread on the forum of people who say

things like, let's shoot them down. There's people who actually do go out with laser pointers and point them at the planes that are chemtrails. Here's my problem with it all, and this is what really freaked me out. Where is their tipping point? How far do you look into it before you're willing to resort to violence? Like, how much evidence are they getting that that's what's happening? There's a weird disconnect going on here. Because if you were looking at the whole thing, and if you looked at the explanations, you looked at the explanations where they're clearly stating in mainstream news that there's artificial clouds that are created by jets. It's a part of the 2002 article on CNN.com. And it's about after 9-11, they measured the skies and they found

that the artificial clouds that are created by jets flying around all the time, that they actually were cooling the planet and that the planet got hotter, like immeasurably hotter without that happening. Only during the day, actually. Well, when that happened, it warmed up during the day and cooled down during the night. The jets don't actually really do one thing very much. They do, in the day, the contrails will block the sun, and at night, they block the heat leaving. So the net result is a very slight warming because there's more of an effect from the trapping of the thing at night they block the heat leaving so that the net result is a very slight warming because there's more of an effect from the trapping of the thing at night.

So during the 9-11 shutdown what was seen was there was an increase in the range of temperatures. So my point was that it is still is a fascinating point of discussion even if it's not chemicals being sprayed from the sky. Even if it is this not, excuse me, if it is not this nefarious government scheme to control the weather, it is still fascinating because we're having an effect on the environment by flying around. Period. So in a sense, the idea behind chemtrails, like the chemtrail theorists and conspiracists, idea behind chemtrails, like the chemtrail theorists and conspiracists, what they're doing is you have a real problem, and you're focusing on a fake ineffective problem.

And the fake ineffective problem, being that they're spraying us to poison us, they're causing more jealous, what an incredibly ineffective program that would be. Do you know how much money the government is spending? And how would you even organize that in the government as if you could keep that a secret? As if the U.S. government could keep something like that secret anyway. But just stop and how think about how crazy it is that you would think that something

which does such a shit job is still going on as a program. We're pretty goddamn healthy. People are living longer than ever. They're curing cancers that used to kill you just a few years ago. It's like, if you're taking care of your body and you're eating healthy, if you can afford to do that, you can live pretty good right now. Yeah, and that's one of the things, like, with fluoride in the water, people say fluoride

is poisoning people, but, you know, the water's been fluoridated for decades and there really hasn't been any noticeable difference in health for people, fluoride versus un-fluoride. But there also hasn't been any evidence to indicate that fluoride's good for dental hygiene or anything. It's a bit of a dubious thing to actually do. It doesn't seem like it should be poured into the water, period. If it's not aiding in taking away anything dangerous that can kill you. I heard that was settled science, the fact that fluoride actually does retard tooth decay.

I do not know if that's true. The reason I say that is because they've done a lot of comparisons between... The reason, first of all, I think it was even discovered was, wasn't it, there was a couple towns in Colorado where kids were just not getting cavities. Well, what was going on? They found that there were natural fluoride deposits in the water. And it may have been, I think it was Colorado. And then they started doing things and scientists said, yes, in fact, fluoride makes it more unlikely

that you'll get tooth decay. Then they compared fluoride, this country, with the countries overseas that did not fluoridize their fluorinate or whatever the word is, their water. There was a marked difference in the amount of cavities. The science is real that it does actually prevent it, but it's kind of more of a broader demographic thing.

For the total population, does it actually have a worthwhile effect? Because most people brush their teeth nowadays. With fluoride toothbrushes. Yeah. And back in the olden days, that wasn't such a common thing, especially with poor people. And so the fluoridation programs were kind of aimed more at the poor people who had poor dental hygiene. And, you know, the middle classes and upper middle classes, people who had money and taught their kids how to brush their teeth properly, they didn't really benefit from fluoridation at all.

Oh, I see. And nowadays it's a lot more common for people to be brushing their teeth. So there's even less of a reason to do it. But there still is. There's still a segment of the population who don't have very good dental hygiene, who probably would benefit from fluoridation, but it's like checks and bonds. Math addicts. So is it a necessary component for dental hygiene, or is it just that hygiene is a necessary component? And then if you're having a person who's doing

it today, over the last X amount of years, toothpaste has been fluoridated. What sample study do you have of people that are not using fluoride, you know, fluoridated toothpaste? The Amish. Yeah. The Amish, maybe. Maybe, like, I have that Tom's of Maine. I've had that stuff before. It doesn't have fluoride in it.

It's pretty good toothpaste. Yeah. Just because it kind of weirds me out that fluoride is dangerous. I mean, you can't have it in large sums. And obviously, you could say that about salt or a lot of other things as well. But fluoride doesn't seem to be like a natural thing that we should consume. I mean, is there a benefit?

It is a natural occurring... Yeah. It can be. It's in the water. Yeah, it's in the water. In all water, like natural sources? In various amounts. Spring water?

It's a mineral, isn't it? Or is it a... Yeah, yeah. Something like that. If you die from fluoride, you're a pretty big pussy, though. You should probably just not worry about it. What was the knock, the conspiracy theory? Maybe you can help us on this.

The conspiracy theory about it was that it was created by the Nazis, and that it was part of the mind control effort to keep people stupid. They fluoridated the water. Well, I mean, the internet was invented on it. A lot of those people were probably at Apple, et cetera, were drinking fluoride. Again, you've got to look at what's happened. How's it worked?

Are people stupid nowadays? You might, yeah. A lot of people are stupid nowadays. But yeah, IQs and things like that. Goddamn people are stupid. That's a terrible... It is. What else to say? You don't realize how stupid people are

until you run into stupid people. Because if you're a smart person and you travel in smart circles, you can get really delusional. If you live in a nice town where people have their shit together and you're interacting with pretty intelligent people, you could forget that essentially there's parts of the world, parts of our country even, that look like an episode of The Walking Dead. Yeah, and I don't even think of it as stupid when I travel as much as, you know, we both travel a lot. I actually am always amazed at how apathetic people are. Just how they just are not interested in anything that they can't eat or touch or feel.

There's no, there's no, doesn't always seem to be a lot of imagination out there. Yeah, there's a weirdness to this world that we're living in right now where people are looking to be distracted more so than ever. Partly, partly because you can distract yourself very effectively. Yep. That's true too. But there's not that much of a push to get the fuck away from it. You know, I think that like, it sounds crazy, but I think that if there's not some sort of a push to get away from stupid, silly thinking, it's really difficult to find the motivation.

Yeah, I think human beings have always done that when they had to. Think about how many inventions came out of war, out of the necessity of trying to beat the other side so you're not Speck and Zeddeutsch, etc. I mean, a lot of, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of technological advances were a direct result of having to come up with a solution to a problem, you know, a very immediate problem. Yeah, and the space program as well basically came out of the Cold War. It was because we had this big enemy that we had to fight. You could put all these resources into going to the moon and stuff like that, which was a completely unnecessary thing.

But, you know, yes, conflict is a big driving force. Safety and pleasure. This is interesting. Cavity rates declined in several cities that stopped water fluoridation. New studies report contradicting American Dental Association predictions according to the Fluoride Action Network.

By the way, who are the Fluoride Action Network? Who are these people? As soon as you're dedicating all your time to fluoride. Obscure jobs. There's a few fairly serious people who don't like the fluoridation thing, like actual scientists. Yeah. Oh, yes.

There's a case behind it. It's not this totally fringe thing. But it becomes fringe when you get into things like the government is adding it secretly to brainwash people. Or the other one that I've heard is that the government added it because there was some sort of a deal that they had made with the producers of fluoride.

Like, listen, see, you're going to dump this in our water and you're going to pay us every year. You're going to kick back. You're going to kick back. Your kids are going to kick back. I mean, but it's a ridiculous theory, but it sounds like that's something the government would do. But the theory was they were trying to get rid of toxic waste. Yes.

And the only thing they could think of to do was to put it in the water supply. Yes. I mean, who gets rid of toxic waste by adding it to the water supply? I think the company that makes toxic waste are in league with Satan. And so is the government that allow this to happen. They don't care that they're washing their own bodies with this water. All the elites get their spring water

shipped in from the center of the earth. It comes sterilized by the lava. It's super delicious. Once you vote Republican for 10 years in a row, they come to your house. They give you the good water. Some of them go to Switzerland and they have their blood cleaned.

Yes, you got to go to Switzerland. In those machines. Yeah. Well, they and they have their blood cleaned. Yes, you got to go to Switzerland. And those machines. Yeah. Well, they do do some interesting procedures overseas. Do you know anything about those blood spinning procedures they're doing? Isn't that platelet-rich? It's sort of like that, but I guess it's not. There's something more to it.

It's not just platelet-rich plasma treatment, but there's added elements. I have no idea. I don't understand it, but all these athletes are having these incredible results going over there. Like Dana White, he cured his Meniere's disease with one shot. Yeah. Apparently a lot of diseases are based on inflammation. And what this stuff essentially is, what it creates is this super anti-inflammation agent

that's made out of your own blood. And I don't understand the process at all but apparently during the bush administration it was really difficult to do stem cell research difficult to difficult to get funding for a lot of things that anything that involves stem cells even if it's like a tiny fraction of a bunch of cells you know like a cells or something like that, something so small you'd have to look under a microscope to see it. So because of that, I think Europe was allowed to experiment with a lot of like really interesting different methods for using stem cells and different treatments of using the stuff that's made out of your own body, like taking your blood and turning it into medicine. It's really kind of crazy, the idea that inflammation is like the cause of so many issues. Yeah, there was an article recently in the New York Times about a guy, a physician, who said, why are we not telling people about the benefits of low-grade aspirin,

81 milligrams or something like that, which apparently has a very measurable result in stopping things like, or at least retarding things like colon cancer even, all kinds of diseases because it brings inflammation down in the body. And, you know, just low-grade aspirin. Listen, dude, I'm reading an article right now on wakeupworld.com, and it says, prove to anyone that fluoride is bad for you and dumbing society down.

Could you imagine if we found out that our leaders were really pouring stuff in the water to try to make everybody dumb? Let's say that we're the delusional ones and that these folks are all right and that the elites, they are not getting fluoride water and They're just doing it to dumb people down. That's the most extreme of the theories, right? Yeah, I guess. Fluoridation is just done at a local level though. It's not even like a national thing. The elites get a cuck back When people use words like the elite or the government the government's always changing and there's so much Infighting in the government a lot of times. People try to stab each other in the back.

It'd be hard to kind of get one small group. It's the shadow government. They also need funding. I found a fluoride action network, by the way, Joe. Nice. Those guys look really happy. That's one thing I always say when I see gay guys together. They look so happy.

They look so happy. They look happy. They're not conflicted at all. You know? Gay. They don't have an issue with one of you being a woman. They also get to hang with another dude

who you understand so well. Why is this guy in this guy? No, he's too high. He's too tall. Look. He's peeing on him. He's jerking off. He's using his butt cheeks

to hold his balls in place. Right. If I had to guess. That's weird. If I had to guess. It's weird to you. I say fun. And then the second theory is that there's some sort of a cover-up going on

because they have a deal to sell this fluoride to the water people, and the water people put it in. And there's this kickback sort of a deal. I've heard that theory, too. Have you read that? Yeah, such a small amount of money in the global scheme of things. Poisoning the entire population

just to make like $1 billion. Maybe he has one of those giant twisty mustaches like Tate Fletcher is rocking these days. And he's really just like a superhero. I heard Tate was flopping. Dude, Tate has the most glorious mustache

the world has ever known. He's fantastic. If anybody should have a mustache, that guy should. I love that, too. Big as shit, tough as shit. Sweetie. And just an animal. And a sweetie.

And smart. And very smart, but he's a sweetie, too. He's a really nice guy. He's just a savage. Maybe if he had fluoride in his water, he'd have been a little more calm. I was going to say. Drinking too much fucking spring water. That's what happens.

Saltpeter, though. You can put saltpeter in the water and it actually kills boners, right? Yeah, yeah. They do that in prison. Really? Isn't that what they used to give priests? I don't know. Oh, they said they gave it to them.

I know they use it in, from what I understand, I guess they use it in prison. The priests take that stuff the way, like when a kidnapper is trying to drug a woman and she figures out a way to put it under her tongue in a movie and spit the medication away defiantly. Yeah, that's how the priests take that saltpeter. My saltpeter tap it. Yeah. Who the fuck is going to take something that kills your boners? People would theoretically, but when push came to shove, they would go, wait, what?

What does it do? You'd go, yeah, I don't even want my sexuality anymore. I'm done. I give up. And then, okay, we're going to give you a pill that kills it permanently, forever. You get to that pill and you go, wait a minute, what happens? I'd just sit on the couch all day.

What else is there to do? My boner is what drives me everywhere. Did you see any of the Joe Rogan questions, everything on human optimization, on transcendency? No, that's the one I missed. The best one, in my opinion, my favorite one to do. Because it was on a very controversial topic, the idea of taking a human mind and breaking it down to ones and zeros

and then downloading it into something that we create. The singularity. Yeah, whether it is a computer or whether it's an artificial body that has an artificial brain and literally a bolt to the back of your head and you're USB to USB in your brain and all of a sudden Brian Callen exists in a super body

and you're running around jumping over buildings and you're not even made out of tissue anymore. USB to USB in your brain, and all of a sudden Brian Callen exists in a super body, and you're running around jumping over buildings, and you're not even made out of tissue anymore. You're made out of carbon fiber and bulletproof skin. How long do I got to wait for this? How long? I'll finally have the athleticism I've been wanting. I think everyone's going to be at some point in time, but that is the big theory is how much of this is science fiction,

or the big discussion, rather, is how much of this is science fiction or the big discussion rather is how much of this is science fiction because the idea of being able to actually escape your biology 100 yeah and to be able to to get the mind and somehow or another transport the consciousness into something else maybe but there's no one's ever shown yeah we no one's ever shown that we can even isolate where consciousness comes from. We know that we believe it's created by the brain because of a bunch of factors, but the brain could be just like a really sophisticated instrument for tuning in the consciousness of your entire body. Well, or the way these mathematicians are now calling the idea

that our brain may very well be a hologram, what we see as a mathematical hologram of some kind. This guy I had on my podcast as an author went and talked to all these big-time mathematicians at MIT because he was trying to work on this book, and they were like, well, I mean, the latest theory, if you really want to hear it, is that this is one big hologram, and we're actually there's a some another dimension to our minds that we haven't thought about yet i was like what are you talking about what are you even saying but it was you know they all they do it on numbers too that's what's really

fucked about those theoretical quantum physicists guys they'll show you like in numbers well they said that this is where they started with they said if you were to take all the space away from what you're made of, say you're made of atoms and it's mostly space and energy. If you were to take the space away from that, from every human being and every piece of material, you could fit every human being that's ever lived inside a baseball. And then they started going, well, if that's the case, then there's got to be a mathematical explanation for this theoretically which would mean that this is some kind

of a hologram etc. etc. Leave it up to these mathematicians. You know you're a skeptic the point when you start getting that high math stuff it's way more fascinating.

It doesn't mean anything. Right. It's like it's a mathematical model of how the universe might work but it doesn't tell you anything about reality because there's nothing in it

that you can test. It's just saying behind the curtain there might be this but there's no way it that you can test. It's just saying behind the curtain there might be this, but there's no way of looking behind the curtain. It's like with super strength theory, you can't really test it yet because it's based on these tiny little dimensions underneath atoms and things like that. So it's kind of like a little bit meaningless. Sure. Although wouldn't you say, and I've heard that there have been mathematical equations that were thought up 150 years ago by random mathematicians,

and it really had no bearing on the physical world. A hundred years later, 130 years later, oh, look, I'm measuring the distance between quarks and how they relate to such and such. And in fact, this equation is incredibly applicable. Yeah, yeah. Some types of math, like people thought there was no use for at all, like imaginary numbers. The square roots of minus one is an imaginary number because it's not a real number. But they didn't have any use back in the days of just Newtonian mechanics. But now quantum mechanics uses imaginary numbers in the math.

That's what blows my mind. What the fuck did you just say? And that's what blows my mind. Imaginary numbers in math. Oh my God, I'm so stupid. Yet they're practical. Yet they have a practical application to reality now. Because these quantum scientists, when they're dealing on the quantum level, it's actually relevant.

And that's what fascinates me is somebody thinks up an incredible mathematical equation a hundred years ago for no reason. Lo and behold, he thought it up and we're using it today because it reflects the physical world. Well, there's been a whole history of mathematics that most people are completely ignorant to. And me, absolutely. Me too. But I have read articles where people who are mathematical geniuses were describing like breakthroughs in mathematics.

And they look at it like people look at baseball. They look at it like people look at baseball. They look at it like people look like the great sports heroes of the past, like great mathematicians. There's like this weird sort of camaraderie, this culture of these super people that are just concentrating on numbers. It's a fucking freaky thing. They're in their own little world because they've got this language that only they can talk. Yes. They talk to other mathematicians

about things. He's talking about, like, I was on the bus once back in England and there were two guys behind me and they were talking about 24-dimensional sphere packing. And it started out, they said, well, 24-dimensional sphere packing. And then after that I couldn't understand a single word that they said. It was just this complete gobbledygook.

There is a great, great guy who just died. NPR did an amazing documentary on this mathematician whose name escapes me. They were just honoring him, all these mathematicians around the world. And they talked to this famous mathematician. And he said, oh, he was a saint. And the guy goes, what? He goes, he was a saint. There's no other way to put it.

And he said, what do you mean? He said, his influence on all of us was so profound because what he would do was he would find out that there was a mathematician somewhere in the world working on a very complicated problem and he would show up at their door and say he would show up at the door and say uh hello uh my name is such and such and i'm here to lend you my brain in any way i can and he would help this guy sounds annoying as fuck he was so brilliant though imagine if you're in the middle of jerking off and that guy's knocking on your door. Wants to play with numbers. Who the fuck are you, buddy?

They don't even know each other. Get out of here. Get out of here with your crazy math skills. He would come up with weird ideas. He'd see a hawk flying overhead and he'd calculate the amount of the globe that the hawk was able to see at any given time. Oh, my God. In his head. Yeah, or if it flew for 60 minutes.

And he would come up with these incredible answers where you'd go, that's actually kind of interesting. What's really fascinating is how little attention we put to that, but yet what a huge impact it has on the reality of our world as opposed to celebrities having babies. That's so true, Joe. OMG, Alec Baldwin freaked out on that photog. Can you believe it? world as opposed to celebrities having babies. That's so true, Joe. OMG. Alec Baldwin freaked out on that photog.

Right. Can you believe it? No, I can't believe it. A guy who's got a temper and there's a bunch of dudes standing in front of him when he's with his baby taking pictures. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder why he went crazy. Yeah.

I wonder why he went after them. That's not nearly as bizarre as the whole picture. Look at this world of mathematics that allows this person to make this camera. Look at this super genius that figured out how to get this chip and break this computer down to this tiny little sensor and figure out how to. And it's all digital and you fucking can use your finger to flip through the images. And it's this huge thing. It just captures everything and crystal clear. That's that's clear. That's

mad. That's craziness. And that's magic, isn't it, in a way? But the main impact of it is this massive distraction of celebrity gossip, of bullshit, of nonsense. Immediate and visceral. Anyone can relate to it. I know, but it's weird how...

People can't relate to math. Yeah, it's a trick. Shiny. Yeah, but it's amazing how all... I mean, if you looked at like our pie chart of what we pay attention to in the world and showed math, it would be so small. It would be this little tiny sliver. None of us think about it. Sex and food and music. Your music sucks. Fucking Twitter assholes on Twitter.

Yet isn't Twitter the mechanism by which you do it? It's an algorithm probably. Google is an algorithm. This is all math that we benefit from. Sure. And the internet would be impossible if it wasn't for math. The lack of math kind of underlies a lot of the conspiracy theories out there because people don't – they have this stopping point that they can't get beyond. Yes.

At some point, you've got to do a little bit of math to check your science or your theory or whatever it is. Right. Like with the chemtrail thing, you get these angles and geometry and stuff like that. But people, they stop because they can't do that. And with other things like World Trade Center collapses and things like that, there's a bit of math to do there. But the vast majority of people can never get past that mental barrier of having to do a bit of math. Yeah, well, the math of how many people would have to be in on it is a big one.

I mean, you're not talking about, like, people always like to use the Manhattan Project as a good example of people being able to keep a secret for a long time. But boy, is that a different sort of situation. Boy, is that a different time in the world. Wartime. Yeah, wartime before social internet, before social networking programs that we enjoy today that allow you to know that Tommy Morrison died today. You get it immediately, instantly.

Right. I was going to say it's very hard to get information to people that way. Oh, it comes so rapid right now. It's hard to believe that they would be able to keep that a secret. That's one thing. And then it's hard to see the benefit. What's actually being done here? Who's actually getting hurt because of this? How many more diseases? Have we really looked at the numbers? What is the impact? Oh, actually, we're healthier now than ever before. So what are we actually looking at

here? What we're looking at here is this very blinder-edged look of the world where you're just choosing to focus on one aspect of something that you're seeing. Yeah. It consumes our lives as well. And it spreads into everything. Yeah. It's almost a philosophy. There's a philosophy to skepticism and there's a philosophy to cynicism, and I think they're different things.

I think a lot of people look at skepticism and cynicism as being equal, and I don't think they're equal. Not at all. I have a bit of a problem with, I use the word debunker rather than skeptic because skeptic kind of just implies you don't believe in stuff. A debunker is an active thing. You're actually going out there and trying to do something about it. But people think that debunkers

are just automatically disbelieving everything, which is not what debunking is about. It's about finding things that are wrong and then exposing them, not starting out assuming that they're wrong. Isn't that the scientific message? Isn't skepticism and doubt what the scientist has always got to prove

and always keep doubt in his mind, right? So you have to be skeptical as a scientist. And the anti-science people, they think that science is a dogma that's fixed, where it's completely the opposite. Science is constantly changing and constantly correcting. All science is doing, basically, is finding the things that still are not known in science.

And what I really like about the way you do it is you're not making any enemies while you're doing it. You know, you're being nice about it. You're being very calm about it. You were in the face of incredible stupidity when we did our show, when that guy was creating his fucking cloud machine with his goofy fake harp thing

that wasn't even really harp. It was like he was attaching electricity to this box and sending a current through it and he had artificial misters for those bonsai things that you see at the mall. Those always look dope, but you never buy one. Those bonsai trees always look sweet. I can have a bonsai tree in my office.

I never buy those stupid shit. They make noise too. They gurgle. I went to China and saw the original bonsai. The ones that were 400 or 500 years old. I was a kid. I never forgot that. I went to mainland China. And they're tiny and they're 400 or 500 years old?

I saw a forest of them. Oh, there are more than that. And they manicure them? They had some that were 700-year-old trees that were still tiny. And they were exactly like a 700-year-old oak or something. And they were, I couldn't get over it. I was probably, how old was I? I was and they were... I couldn't get over it. I was probably... How old was I?

I was 15 years old. I couldn't stop staring at them. So they're just constantly manicuring them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that the idea? It was. There are people who pass their skill to generation after generation.

Oh, my God. And they raise these trees, and they're bonsai trees, and it's just mind-blowing. Wow, that's amazing. Mind-blowing. That's another thing, man. It's like we have it in our head so much that this is the way culture is, like America, like this is it.

This is like one possibility that a pattern can get started, and then it follows and becomes a tradition, and then it becomes your culture, and then it becomes the way you behave. And they're radically different. I mean, boys like girls, girls like boys, sometimes girls like girls, sometimes boys like boys. Other than that, it's all bets are off. People, they have their writing is fucking incredibly alien. They're driving on the wrong side of the street.

They have all sorts of things that you accept as being normal to you. They wipe their ass with their left hand. You can't touch a dude's left hand. Right. The guy I had on just, I'm about to have on my podcast, Josh Foer.

I just did an interview with him. And he has been living in the Congo with hunter-gatherers. The original, the final, probably one of the last, very last people in the deep Congo forest with pygmies. They're all pygmies. They come up, tallest guy comes up to his shoulders. We had Justin Wren on the podcast. You know who he is? No. in the deep Congo forest with pygmies. They're all pygmies. The tallest guy comes up to his shoulders. We had Justin Wren on the podcast. You know who he is? No.

He was on The Ultimate Fighter, and now he's dedicated his entire life to helping pygmies. Wow. He goes back and forth there and makes films. Oh, I wonder if Josh knows him, Josh Bor. I bet they do, all those pygmy helper dudes. I asked him what's the scariest. But he was talking about progress,

and he said the one thing we don't die of is stupid diseases. Thank God for vaccines and antibiotics and stuff and there's a lot of death. But then he was talking about how for the most part, they smoke a shit load of weed, by the way. A copious amount. Yeah, and the pygmies. Always high.

Pygmies are always high. That's so cool. And they spend a lot of time actually, there's a lot of food around so they're primarily carnivores. They eat some roots and they eat different nuts. But there's enough food around to sustain them. Yeah, they's a lot of food around. So they're primarily carnivores. They eat some roots and they eat different nuts. But there's enough food around to sustain them. Yeah, they have a lot of time to hang out. I said, what are they doing?

A lot of times they'll just watch their kids run around and play. I was like, that's pretty cool. And I said, what's the most dangerous animal? Like, you know, snakes? He goes, no, no, not snakes. You don't have to worry about it. It's just elephants. I was like, what do you mean?

He goes, elephants, and you always sneak up on them by accident, and they just come at you. Oh, God. That must be so terrifying. An intelligent, giant animal. There's Justin Wren, when the first time these kids had ever seen a white guy before. And Justin's a big, giant white guy

with really light skin. Wow. So they're freaking out. Justin has red hair, right? It's like reddish, brown, brown. Good on you, Justin Ren. Good on you. He's a little gingerish.

Oh, he's a great guy. He's a real sweetheart. And he said that this really gave his life a lot of meaning, and he just feels completely dedicated to these people now. Look at those kids. They're so sweet. Yeah. The way he explained it was very pure, you know, that he, when, when

he went over there and he started helping these people, like he had this massive sense of helping, you know, that he could help, that he could accomplish something that he could really make an impact. I asked Josh, I said, you know, you see a lot of death and that people die. And, and one of the things that, one of the things that modern, I think society has given us is we, we have to bury our children a lot less frequently than we did just 50 years ago, thank God. And I said, when someone, you know, people are on such an intimate terms with life and death, where a lot of people die all the time, how do they deal with death? And he looked at me and said, people are just people, man. And they take death just as

heavily as any of us do, regardless of how frequent it happens. It's always a soul crusher. I'm sure. We have this tendency to believe, well, you've been around a lot. No. No, they just accept the fact that that's a part of reality. But the impact of it, a father losing their son or a mother losing their daughter, whatever, it's incredibly painful. It's always going to be. It's one of the main motivating factors that people have to succeed and to shelter themselves

correctly and to keep food on the table. You're never going to avoid that. People in America, they're sheltered from death, I think. Yeah, absolutely. We're spoiled in a lot of ways. There's this one theory about the femur coffins, which is grave liners. There's big piles of grave liners in a field somewhere. People say they're coffins that femur has been stockpiling.

But they're really just like these plastic things that they put over graves. But because people aren't familiar with, they don't go to very many funerals because very few people die over the course of your life until you get to be older. All the young people, they don't recognize these things because they don't know anything about the burial process.

So they think, oh, it must be like FEMA stockpiling coffins. Yeah, and they probably listen to Alex Jones. That wasn't Alex Jones' thing, I think. FEMA camps! Coffins lined up! You're telling me, Wick West, I have been to the FEMA camps? That was good. There's 10,000 body holes out there, boy!

I want to hear him hitting on a girl. Joe Rogan is the most underrated impressionist. Sure, if it's Alex Jones or Joey Diaz. And Mike Tyson. You do a great Mike Tyson. I haven't done that one in a long time. You do a very good Mike Tyson. You do a great Arnold. Thank you very much. You're a sweetie.

I am. We sort of got a little bit sidetracked with Brian's awesome story of Pygmies. Sorry. It is pretty badass. Dongmies. It is pretty badass. Don't sorry. It was pretty badass. But what I was getting to was that you don't make any enemies. You're trying to, but you can't help it sometimes.

Because people will take just the fact that you're explaining where they were wrong as being you telling them they are stupid. Yes. But I would tell them they're stupid. That's my point. It's like, you do so much better job. You're so much better for this job than me. Because as a comedian,

it's a real problem with even doing this Joe Rogan questions anything show or everything show. Because there was certain point in times where as a comedian, I couldn't just have you stand in front of me telling me you've seen something completely retarded with no emotion attached to it you know I'm just like oh really oh you did oh did you waste my time I look I try to be really

nice as much as I can got a lot better yeah I got a lot better because you used to be when you're younger Joe would just be like what that's stupid I'm not talking to you anymore I knew there's there's things that can happen in this life that can really hold you up. And one of them, one of the things that can complicate and fuck your life up to no end is when you make the mistake of allowing really stupid people into your life. Because really stupid people, they're not thinking about themselves. They're not thinking about you. They're just thinking about filling holes, whether it's emotional holes or psychological holes

and they're not really even there for you I wish I'd learned that. They're everywhere they're like poisonous plants that look like the real thing it's like if you there was a certain smell that celery gave off and if you ate it, it just breaks your dick gives you diarrhea, gives you headaches

for six months, you'd avoid that like the plague but that is the case with relationships. It's the case with friendships. It's the case with relationships. And when I was young, I felt like I was fighting upriver. I felt like those motherfuckers, these weak dummies that will get in your life and make up stories, lie or be mean to you or shit on you or say things about you behind your back. They're your enemy. Who taught you that? Go through it.

Because I should have learned that and I never did. Nobody. Yeah. I just figured that out. Well, it wasn't entirely right. I should have listened to you. Because I created a lot of enemies that didn't need to be my enemies. Right, right, right.

There was a much more level-headed way of looking at it. But that took, for me at least, it took some I had to develop that understanding on my own. I had to develop the understanding of when to do it, when to not, when to be kind to people, and when to try to genuinely let someone know that you can't listen to this anymore. You know, like, listen, I'm sure

you're a nice guy, but here, this is my take on this, and this is why I don't like discussing these things. Whereas if I was 23, I would have been like, dude, please shut the fuck up you're killing my brain you fucking dummy don't you didn't thought this shit through so i hadn't do that a couple times people will fucking beat you down they will beat you down with stupidity they will climb inside your head and and just say a bunch of stupid shit at you. And if you allow, if you, like, venture into that world, you're going to be hanging around with problems to solve

where you get nowhere. Your life is not going to be like figuring out your life. Your life is going to be dealing with whatever emotional bullshit these morons in your life have dragged into it. And instead of, like, supporting each other and helping each other and evolving together, you're in this constant weird stream of conflict with the person that you're friends with. I think he's mad at me, man.

I don't know what the fuck I did, but he's got a bug up his ass lately. You know those type of people? Yeah, yeah. And they start conflicts, and then, hey, Bobby thinks you're mad at him. I mean, I don't know what you want to do. What is all that?

Where's that coming from? You let that shit into your life, you got problems. Yeah, and people date that, too. Exactly. In a relationship where they're having text wars for three hours. It's really simple. Don't be a cunt.

Don't be a cunt. Cunt-free zone. Yeah, don't be a cunt, and we can all be nice to each other. But as soon as you allow cuntiness, and this motherfucker, he had a whole cunt farm. He had a whole cunt produce section. He had all these cunts that he was growing in his life, all over the place, to the point where he would be constantly late

for things because he would always have 15 different obligations that some asshole that he was hanging out with, dude, dude, I really need you there for me, brother. I really need you there for me. This is my thing. This is my first time in acting class where I'm standing up and I'm doing my... And you would go to these idiots' things. You would go to these idiots things.

You would go to all those things. And then you would come to me afterwards. You're like, you got to clean your life out, son. You got to clean your life out. You hanging around with way too many crazy assholes. So exhausting. That was the best compliment you ever gave me. You said you never needed anything.

I think that's why you hung out with me a lot, right? Because I just didn't need anything from you. Oh, you're one of my least needy friends I've ever met. Nothing. You need nothing. When I first met you, you didn't even have a fucking doorknob. He didn't have a doorknob. He was living in Venice in a fucking apartment. I go upstairs.

This is his place. I push the door open. I'm looking down. There's no knob. It's a hole. You could look down on your knees and look right into his apartment. My father said that to me my father saw the car was driving Hey, he goes up. I can afford to buy you a nicer car. You want me to do I'll do it right now

I was like no What I recognized when I met you was this guy who is like almost like you're trying to save people from the thing that you would be That you would least like your to find yourself in that sort of a position. I think that's good. You were looking at them as if they were you and you didn't feel entirely secure growing up and you felt like

as a good person that you are you would just try to help these guys out. He's a good guy. He's got a crazy idea about Jews. He's got a project for me. A crazy idea about Jews. He's a Nazi, but otherwise. But the beautiful thing about you, dude, is, first of all, we never argued about these things.

Like, when you had a crazy person in your life, you were more than willing to listen. Yeah. You, like, we disagreed about a few of them, but you never got, like, shitty about it. No. And I think you're a really logical thinker. You always have been. And so you looking back on all your behavior is so fascinating because you're looking on it like a science project. Like, oh, this is why I was doing this here and this is why I was a silly goose right there.

Right. The amount of time I wasted just buying two parrots and having two dogs and moving a complete lunatic into my house. You know, I just, I would like, let's see. Well, let's see. Everything's going well. Let me see how I can complicate the shit out of this. Maybe I can buy a chimp while I'm at it.

You know, it's just, you do, you do a lot of, it's a lot of it just self-sabotage in a way. It is. But the logical thinking that you have, what's fascinating about it, how it applies to debunking things. And you've always been really good at that or really energetic about it, you know is that when when you have like this way of thinking that you sort of Cultivated over a lifetime of watching people fuck up left and right around you You can sometimes see other people's problems better than you can even see your own and so you see that and you go oh no no no no that's this you're looking at this like you're like what you

really want to be do is like turn inward and figure out why the fuck you're doing the weird shit that you're doing in your life in the first place and once you started doing that your life completely turned around you got rid of all the cuckoo heads in your life and then your career started taking off and then you realize oh I was distracting myself and that was holding me back Wow right I didn't know so what I find most fascinating about that when it when you when you apply that to like debunking is that there's no goddamn guidebook to living life and when you're going through life and you're trying to figure the whole thing out and trying to be a good person and trying to follow the laws and succeed and get ahead, nobody really can tell you how the fuck to do it.

And a lot of times people feel like there's forces holding them down. There's a lot of times people feel like, man, if I was just in with that crowd, then I would know. If I was just with it, It's all nepotism. It's a crazy, scary system that we're filtering our bodies through. That's what it really is. And so there's a lot of perceived shit out there that's really internal shit. And that's one of the issues that's causing people to look at whatever it is that they want to believe is real. Whatever crazy Area 51 conspiracy theory they want to pull all their time into.

Why are you really doing that? Is it really because the evidence is overwhelming or is there a psychological issue at stake here? Is there something going on that you're trying to not think about is that what's causing you and you know What most of them admit? It's the great demise Most of them admit it's a midlife crisis thing they were honest about it really the Bigfoot guys that I went out with Significantly part of this small community of believers. Well the Bigfoot guys were super cool and Really nice guys and one of the things the guy said, they were really fun.

They weren't dumb. They were just really fun, interesting guys who believe in Sasquatch, and they like going looking for them. But the guy was like, even if it's not real, we're camping. Yeah. It's fun. And he enjoyed it, man. He enjoyed it.

He was a cool guy. Yeah, Ayn Rand talked about modern art enthusiasts. So they'd come and see Rauschenberg like a broom in a bucket, and he'd sell it for $200,000. And she said, they're not here for art. They're not even art. They're here to be part of a very small elite group of people that actually can, quote, unquote, appreciate such sort of obscure expression. I think there's a big difference, though, and say chemtrails and 9-11. If you're wrong about Bigfoot, then there's

no big deal. You just weren't right about Bigfoot. But if you're wrong about 9-11 or chemtrails, then your entire world view comes crashing down. So I think people are much more invested mentally in things like the more serious conspiracy theories and they are in the supernatural.

Yeah, I do believe you're right. Being invested mentally is a great way to put it. It works both ways as well, like debunkers and skeptics. Some of them get kind of obsessed with debunking. And people start out, like as young people, young people debunking, they just knock things down one at a time. They see something that's wrong and that's stupid.

Or like, you know, let me explain that. And they're not really being very productive. And that's something I thought about a lot as I've been doing it for more and more years is you've got to figure out, you know, what's the long-term goal here? Just like telling one guy that he's wrong and explaining to one guy is not really very useful.

But if you can look at what you're actually doing and try to improve the way you're communicating with these people and try to reach a broader set of people than just doing it as a sport, which is kind of what a lot of people who are skeptics do. They do it because they enjoy it. Yeah, it's a sport. Yeah, they get this visceral thing, this pleasure from proving people wrong. That creates a competition sort of a feel. Yeah. It creates a lot of animosity. And that's what I was really crediting with you.

You do a great job of avoiding that. You just talk to them extremely rationally. The guy that we were talking about that did this harp experiment seemed like a nice guy. Yeah, he did. But this is how he seemed like a very nice guy. I really enjoyed his company. He's not a bad guy at all. And he's obviously a nice guy. Yeah, he did. But this is how he seemed like a very nice guy. I really enjoyed his company. Not a bad guy at all. And he's obviously a smart guy, too.

But his friend, when I go into his office, I walk in the door, they have a picture of this Indian guy. He's got a white beard, and he's got white paint on his face, and he's kind of a portly fellow. And I go, who's that guy? and I go, who's that guy? And he goes, well, 10 years ago he underwent an incredible transmogrification or some shit like that of his body and now he no longer needs water or

food. And I go, no he didn't. He's a breatharian. Exactly. And I just go, no he didn't. And he goes, no, you really have to meet him. I go, no I don't. No I don't. I can't, but that's where everything shuts down. Like, I have to go, stop. There's never been a person they've even proven to be able to survive a week.

Right. Do you know that? Right. Without water. A week with no water and no food. Right. You're gone, son. Yeah.

You can't live. Yeah. Like, they figured that out. Like, you're not magic. Right. You fucking fat shit with white paint on your face. If somebody's going to say something that outrageous, you'd think the burden of proof would be on them. Exactly.

I mean, you can't just say that to me. No, he said you have to meet him. I'm denying meeting him because I'm a government shill. And that's the whole reason why we can't prove to the world on Joe Rogan Questions Everything that there are real breatharians. Right. You get the fuck out of here. God damn it. It's like, there's not elves, too.

I would like there to be elves. It's like I watched this guy reading. It was great. You would have loved it. We're at this cafe, and this beautiful girl is there, and there's this guy, this middle-aged guy, and he's reading her palm. And clearly, he is her healer or whatever oh yeah and i just said i was with two other people and i go that guy's that guy's oh you want to see a

scam artist right there right there there's a scam artist right there trying to get laid by reading her palm and he was he was obviously a professional like you know i could tell by the way he's talking she was asking questions what does that mean well how do you know he's a scumbag i go because he's a liar that's why and he's making a living that way well you can just tell you know if you ever got your palm read it's nonsense they just start talking

about your lifeline and the way you went to here have you ever gone to one of those places that's open like 24 hours a day and it's just like the lady lives there

and then you just like ring the doorbell and she wakes up and it's so depressing I went there once drunk with a friend and it was just like I felt like

I just woke up somebody at their house and now I have to talk to them. I went to one in New York. I was on my way to an audition. I had some time. I really didn't like acting back then anyway. So I went to this tarot card reader

lady's place and she was wrong about everything. Could not be wrong. I didn't even bother debunking stuff like that, I think. But it was beautiful. It was, because I never knew. My grandmother was like always fancying herself a psychic. Really?

Oh, yeah, yeah. My grandmother's completely crazy. Some psychics, like Sylvia Brown, make $700 for a 20-minute consultation. My grandmother had a monkey. That's a big scam. She had a monkey? Yeah, she had a monkey. Yeah, a monkey's name was Chi-Chi.

Monkey bite everybody. Okay, she was the only one to get a hold on to this monkey. That's a big scam. She had a monkey? Yeah, she had a monkey. Yeah, a monkey's name was Chi-Chi. Monkey bite everybody. Okay, she was the only one to get hold on to this monkey. That's how crazy my grandmother was. She lived in a haunted house. It was a haunted house because there was a dude

they were renting a room to and the guy died and then he just kept showing up, you know, even after he was dead. Yeah, okay. Interesting. Weird house

in North 9th Street that they lived, that they bought during the Italian period when all the immigrants were coming over. So they got it like when my grandfather was working for the factories or making atomic bomb

parts. Everybody always used to talk about that. Grandpa makes a part they use in the atomic bomb. I'd be like, wow, my grandpa is making the bomb. That's how fucking crazy people were back then. But this house, this neighborhood, while they were living there, constantly changed and got worse and worse and worse

they did block busting, they moved people in and said hey listen black people are moving in you better sell now and they would sell up giant chunks of real estate at a fraction of what they're worth just through the scare tactics and my grandfather was like I like black people I'm not going anywhere and he stayed and because of that their whole neighborhood

completely changed and became really scary and dangerous like North 9th Street right now where they leveled their house. They died a few years back. But it was a really bad neighborhood by the time they were gone. Really bad. So, you know, a lot of people were seeing shit. Who's that? Is that my fucking house? Jesus Christ.

On edge all the time. My grandmother already was crazy. She already had a monkey. And if you were over that house, I lived there for a while when I first came to New York I didn't have any money and when I got signed by my manager I had to leave my apartment travel a by car all the way to New York and I didn't have enough money to save up like for an apartment because I was only making like a couple hundred bucks a week like doing gigs when I first moved to New York so I stayed with my

grandfather in this terrible neighborhood in North 9th Street in Jersey, in Newark. And while I was there, you'd hear sirens in the middle of the night. The next door neighbor, they broke down his house with a battering ram because he was selling crack. Jesus. Yeah, the week or two weeks before I got there,

it was all like fenced off. There's yellow tape and shit. It was like, it was crazy. That was his next door neighbor. And he knew that kid that became the drug dealer. He knew that kid from the time he was a baby. So he got to experience this. This whole generational.

Yeah. Wow. To becoming this 20-year-old drug dealer with an Audi parked in his little driveway area in Newark. Unbelievable. Break it down. I mean, it was crazy. But you would feel like it was haunted area in Newark. Unbelievable. Break it down. I mean, it was crazy, but you would feel like it was haunted

because it was just so dangerous. It was crackling. So everybody was always like, this house is haunted. And my grandmother was like, I knew that was going to happen. She always said that. Any old abandoned house looks like it's haunted.

Yeah. It's a scary old house. Kids will always think it's haunted. And then you just, it's a natural thing. Doing this show, the Joe Rogan Questions Everything show, I got to meet this guy, Banachek, who's a mentalist. Doing this show, the Joe Rogan Questions Everything show, I got to meet this guy, Banachek, who's a mentalist. Do you know who that guy is?

Yeah, yeah. Holy shit, is this guy good. What do you mean, a mentalist? Well, he tells you right away, I'm bullshitting you. Okay, this is all tricks, but I'm going to show you how I tricked scientists in believing that I actually had psychic powers for four years. And he did.

I mean, he's a master mentalist. He puts on shows. He entertains, sort of like Penn and Teller type stuff. So dude, I had a dollar bill in my pocket. I pulled the dollar bill out. We took coins, put them over his eyes, and then duct taped over the coins. And I'm holding the dollar bill here, and he's reading the serial number. It's a dollar bill that came from my pocket.

I know where the dollar bill came from because it reading the serial number the dollar bill that came from my pocket okay I know Where the dollar bill came from because it was an afterthought to put it in my pocket I grabbed my keys and there was like a five and a one sitting next to my keys I go oh let me get that too, and then I just stuffed it in my pocket and left the house And so when he said can you pull a bill out of your pocket? I knew the it was a rare moment where I knew the exact like I knew the it was a rare moment where I knew the exact like The history of that dollar bill for the day. I knew he didn't get a hold of it No one had placed it in my pocket. I was gonna say maybe he's light of hand bill in your pocket

You don't think I'd be able to feel a man's hands that close to my dick. I'm like a leopard, bro I'm you can't just touch me like that. That's me there. I watched a so what was a huge hunting show Let me just say this right now We talked about leopards. And a deer got hit by an arrow. And deers are so fucking fast. As the arrow is going through its body, it turned to get away. And so it wound up shooting through

the top of its body. Wow. Yeah. And he shows it in the video how it happened. And he's like, sometimes, like, deers defy science. Unreal, man. It's the magic bullet. But wait, so he read the serial magic bullet but wait so a real one he read the serial number on the dollar yeah he read the serial number on my fucking dollar bill i have no idea how he did it he he would he did a bunch of different things like twisting a fork but it's

all tricks right he tells you he's like i am not magic i don't have psychic powers he goes i'm just really good at tricking you yeah well the good thing was when he did the scientists, he actually went into this scientific study with another guy for about several months. And there was these scientists who were trying to, they were studying ESP. And they did all these tests on these two guys. But

the two guys were actually the magicians. They were Banachek and this other guy. And so they were basically fooling the scientists. And the scientists ended up writing these papers about these amazing guys, and they did all these tests where they would seal things up, so there was no way that Banaszczak could actually get inside it, but he would figure out a way of getting inside the thing and then bending the wire and then putting it back so no one could tell, because he's a magician, he knows how to do dodgy stuff like that.

And he completely fooled them for several months. And they were writing all these things in these academic journals about how they'd actually discovered ESP and how they'd been replicating it. But it was all this thing set up by James Randi, who's, you know, he's really an old-time skeptic, a guy who debunked Uri Gello and people like that. Oh, I know that guy. Yeah, the little guy with the beard.

Yeah, he's a fascinating cat. And the whole skeptic versus psychic movement or debate is a very interesting one as well. I did an episode where we went to the Rhine Institute and we did all the – you know the Rhine Institute for psychic studies or something. Psychic Studies, something. It's a really interesting setup where they have all these ancient methods that they used to use to try to figure out whether or not someone had psychic powers, the ability to pick which color light is going to turn on next, the ability. I failed all of them.

Failed everything. I have zero psychic power. Zero. I have fucking zero. But then there was a scene where I had to go into this dark room and try to generate energy. And I was like, okay. Like, what? Like, there's a guy named, I think his name is Ed.

And Ed knew how to get it up to a million, which is higher than Chi Masters. Like, they had all this crazy talk about your body being able to generate light. So mine is very high. So mine is very high. My reading is very high. But I take into consideration what I was doing afterwards, and I'm like, I was wearing a battery pack. How is that? That's not... That's like the least scientific way of measuring

light. I mean, I have a fucking thing that has a light in it. Even if you cover the light with a piece of tape, which they did, and even if you put the light under a shirt, if I'm fucking stretching around, what are the odds of some light peeking out there and setting the equipment up? What kind of science are we doing here? They could actually prove this stuff. They would be winning Nobel Prizes because it's like they completely changed science.

And then they claim that they have this proof and this evidence that they can do detecting like ESP and stuff. But when the push comes to shove they actually can't. You know what man I've never seen anyone who can do it but I can't believe that I know the extent of the capabilities of all human beings. There's people that have some really bizarre intuitive skills, there's people that know danger better than other people. Yeah but you see Banachek doing this stuff. He is a guy, by the way, who grew up in a very, very dangerous time. He grew up in South Africa. He was raising his brothers and sisters, I believe, by himself.

I don't know if you have brothers and sisters. But human beings. He grew up like a street kid. And that experience, human beings are really, really good at pattern recognition. So they did lots of studies with a SWAT team guy, a veteran SWAT team guy, and then they took a rookie cop. And the veterans, they'd have a guy just walking up to a school with a bomb pack to his body and behaving in a certain way. And when they'd simulate it, the SWAT team guy would shoot him way earlier because the SWAT team guy was able to pick up immediately something was wrong with this guy. He wasn't a regular guy.

It was a twitch in his arm or whatever, and he recognized patterns over years, and that's what he was good at. So human beings can develop what would appear to be psychic powers because they pick up on- Pattern recognition. Right, and pick up on signals way beforehand, like a guy who trains grizzly bears or lions. He was telling me, he said, I don't get bit because the lion or the grizzly bear, if he's in an irritable mood, is going to tell me three minutes beforehand when

he's going to attack. And people that don't know animals are the ones that get attacked. He said, when a grizzly bear is having a hard time with you, he'll start clicking his jaw. The minute he clicks his jaw, training session's over, baby. It's done. And lions are the same way. They start giving you signals way, way before, and they're subtle signals. But if you don't know how to read them, you're in big trouble. If you do know how to read them, step off. Right, so you're not a horse whisperer, bitch. It seems like they're reading the mind.

Mind reading of the bear. But it's not. It's just they're very well versed in bear psychology. That Cesar Millan guy, you know that dude? Yeah, that guy kicks dogs. Have you ever seen him kick dogs? Yeah, like this. Not that I know that dude? Yeah, that guy kicks dogs. Have you ever seen him kick dogs? Yeah, like this.

Not that I'm thinking there's anything wrong with kicking some dogs to put them in line. He checks them. But he checks them hard, dude. And he's amazing. What I'm saying is he's very good at training dogs

and I'm not saying that what he does is wrong. What I'm saying is he ain't psychic. Right. He's not whispering to these fucking dogs. No.

Right? He doesn't claim to be either. Yeah. He tells people all the time, he goes, you've got to key into yourself. He says, I'm here to train you. The dog's fine. The dog tries to bite people and attacks stone reflection.

It's actually, you're the problem. Well, I think, too, when you're talking about your friend who's like a sniper, I bet there's a certain pattern recognition to people that are experiencing a massive dump of adrenaline. The way they move, there's probably an erratic nature to the movement of a person who's literally at death's door. That's got to be an insanely intense experience.

And I bet if you've seen that from a person and you're like, oh, Jesus, you see a guy who's high on the adrenaline of being about to do something. I mean, if you're looking at a guy who's a suicide bomber or something along those lines, could you imagine what the sweat... They train the TSA to look for those signs. Oh, yeah. And who better to look than those fucking cracks?

Those crack scientists and detectives. Those crack commandos. Those people, Johnny on the spot at the TSA. Joe, have you seen this lion attack video? Yes. Yeah, I have. You can put it on if you want it's pretty fucked up right I've seen them all yeah they fuck this guy up man and look at the girl holds the ground the girls the only thing to save this bitch that guy got fucked up oh my god could you imagine that oh my god they're squirting him with a hose and

pointing him with sticks. Yeah you have to. I know but instead of running the fuck out. They have to man. That's their gig. Yeah. If you back out now bitch you're fired. Lions like to fight too. You know what man? I don't believe that lions should be held in captivity i agree with you on that i certainly don't believe they should be held in captivity and forced to do tricks i think that's utter total bullshit stupidity insanity i think if you want to keep them in large preserves where they can roam free that's one thing but guess what you should feed them animals. If you're going to have them somewhere in any form of...

Oh, shit! That is terrifying, man. It really is, man. Yeah, now they like doing that. Now they've found out how fun that can be. Yeah, that's right. You're food. Oh, my God. Lions can only be pushed so far, man. Look at that. Now they found out how fun that can be. Yeah, that's right. You're food. Oh my god.

Lions can only be pushed so far, man. That dude got fucked up. Oh my god. This is such an insane place to be. Poking a stick at fucking Lions. Oh, he got jacked again. Oh my God.

What a nightmare it must be for those people. You got to get out. Boy, that chick is strong. She's tough. She's holding her ground. And the Lions aren't fucking with her, man. He must be the bad guy. Yeah, these guys must be dicks.

Just get out of that cage. That's total speculation and very rude of me, too, I should say. These guys are getting attacked by animals. I'm adding insult to injury. You got time to get out of that cage. That's total speculation and very rude of me, too, I should say. These guys are getting attacked by animals. I'm adding insult to injury. It's fucked up. Why would we pick him as the insult? I don't know. I'm just being silly.

I don't mean anything I'm saying. I'm trying to be entertaining. It's kind of like that movie Zookeeper that you were in, Joe, when that one guy was being mean to the gorilla, remember? Yeah, that's sort of the cliche, right? It's sort of like the evil stepmother. The zookeepers are always dicks to the animals. There's always one zookeeper who really doesn't like animals.

You assholes. That's in the movie. Oops, sorry. Yeah, this Banachek cat, he blew my mind and really changed the way I look at a lot of what I thought was like psychic stuff. And it really set into my head. I still leave open the door for things that I don't have abilities that I don't possess I don't know I don't know if we've completely explored the

boundaries of human possibility and I also don't know if what is possible today is going to be what's possible five years from now or ten years from now I think that if human beings got to this point through adaptation through you know natural advantage beings got to this point through adaptation, through, you know, natural advantage, we got to all the things that we possess, you know, the ability to see, touch and feel and hear and smell. Why would I assume that there wouldn't be some sort of new thing that comes after that? I think if it does come though, it's going to be a long augmentation. Yes. It's not going to be from evolution. It's going to be, it could be actually modifying our bodies to gain. It's not going to be from evolution. It's going to be from us actually modifying our bodies to gain this.

You're right. A brain implant will give you telepathy. It could be. There was an article that I tweeted about Google. It's a cell phone in your brain. Yes. There was an article I tweeted about Google that was like, you're going to be able to have an implant.

Their ultimate goal, the Google Glass, is to be able to have an implant. And when you have a thought in your mind, it gives you the answer. That is their stated goal. That's right. Wow. That's so awesome. Yeah. So people are evolving themselves.

It's like normal evolution has stopped for humans. Right, but let me take it from a different angle. Isn't that also natural evolution? Natural evolution by a human being augmenting his body with artificial technology is still a part of the actual evolution of the species. He just figured out how to bypass the normal slow steps of the biological genetic evolution

and create some shit with the imagination, the imagination that lives inside the biological entity. It knew its own limitations. It's not the same thing though. I think it's an inevitable consequence of intelligent species evolving, but it's completely different. You're right, but then again, it still is another path that was taken by nature the same way a bee making a beehive. It's going to happen.

It's sort of like a natural part. It's called a homo evolutus. We would never want to talk to each other. Juan Enriquez gives an amazing talk about it on TED.com about how when they invent an artificial eye that can see a mile away, see during the night, and it's biocompatible, and an ear that that does the same thing and a nanobot the size of a red blood cell oxygenate you're going to use those things and we are going to mesh with machines way sooner than we'll ever evolve into it's coming yeah and i bet the first thing is going to be dicks it's going to be artificial dicks there's no doubt you're going to be you know we haven't been able to figure that out yet they've been able to figure out erections they've been able

to figure out rogaine keeping some of your. There's a few things they're still working on. But as soon as they can figure out a way to actually grow dicks. That's it. Because they're going to do that with breasts. There's studies right now going. Cloning tissue. How to manipulate tissue so that the woman will grow natural breasts. With stem cells, I think.

Yeah. Well, I don't know the exact process of it. Or guys. But they're going to try to figure out. Yeah, I guess a guy could grow some tits, too. These guys, these transgenders. Yes, good boy. Good catch. They're going to have some great titties soon and maybe extra dicks.

Well, I think that also they're probably going to be a full, complete XY chromosome woman. As much of a full, complete woman as you can get. They'll be able to genetically engineer a vagina. It won't have to be some sort of a thing that you're making much of a full, complete woman as you can get. They'll be able to genetically engineer a vagina. It won't have to be some sort of a thing that you're making out of a penis. In the future, you're going to be able to like, you might still keep your chromosomes, might still be an XY chromosome, but you

will essentially be 100% female. In every way. So would you hit it? Like, if she had the best pussy, the best boobs? It'd be a real issue. It'd be a real issue. Well, you Well, progressive society would like you to admit that that is a real woman. Asshole. And they would say that. Asshole.

She is a real woman. If she became a real woman, would you hit it? She is a real woman, asshole. There is a thing. Still genetically a man. But the progressive opinion is that you shouldn't even have to divulge that you used to be a man. That's your medical history. I just read,

I just read Warrior Princess and I'm having them on my podcast, her on my podcast, Kristen Beck, who was Chris Beck, who was a member of SEAL Team Six, DevGrew, and a, and a fascinating book because he was,

she, but, but when she was a he, always felt like a girl, always. And goes into why he thinks felt like a girl. Always. And goes into why he thinks that's the case. Some of it had to do

with the way he was raised but also it was just the way he felt. And literally when he was even a very small kid was always stealing his sister's clothes

and wearing them and just always felt like a woman. Joins the SEAL teams SEAL Team 6 to push what he calls his inner girl down. When he'd come back after training, it would roar back in full. He'd be back for two months.

He'd be on a sailboat dressed like a woman every single day. And this is an elite commando, a decorated war hero, and by the way, a war veteran. By the way. Yes, also had done 13 deployments, and I believe still works for the Department of Defense now that he's Kristen Beck. Can't wait to get her on my podcast to talk about this.

Was that an extended plug? It was not. You haven't even talked to her yet? I thought you were going to tell her she talked to her. Oh, no, no, no. You son of a bitch. Hand over one and two, by the way. You just extended plugged us.

The point I'm making... Brian Callen Show. It's on iTunes. That's right. But the point is that when you read this book and you realize how strong the urge to be a woman was, and then she went ahead and got this whole operation, which is a major thing. Yeah. Oh, it's a huge thing. And took so much flack for it, you know, in a way. I mean, it was something she just had to do or she was going to kill herself.

Maybe perhaps you could get her a flak jacket. What's that? Perhaps you could get her a flak jacket. What's that? Perhaps you could get her a flak jacket. It would help protect her from flak. Thank you. Flak seats. Put that on stage. I'm going to open with that this weekend in Brea.

That was a plug. See, that's how you do a plug. Oh, that's good. I will not be opening with that when I'm in Raleigh, North Carolina. I would never guess to know what goes on inside someone's body. If someone tells me they were born a woman and they really are a man, who the fuck would I be to tell them that's not the case? But here's my question to you. You have, say, this MMA fighter who has now gotten this sex change.

Yeah, I've talked about that on the podcast so many times. has gotten this sex change. Yeah, I've talked about that on the podcast so many times, and I've also been enraging Twitter discussions with people. Right, right. We're not going to have to go through it. My feeling is I absolutely support anyone who wants to be a transgender, but I think there is a real issue with combat sports. I don't necessarily believe that there has been enough studies done that show that the male frame is not a significant advantage to have.

The mechanics of the different shaped hips, there's far less likelihood of ACL injuries for men just because of the shape of the hips. These are small issues. A big one is reaction time. In measurable reaction time, men have shown a 10% faster reaction time, almost across the board with elite athletes. Wow. 10% faster than women. That's a big issue with striking.

Yes. A really big issue. And even though there's women that can get to a skill level that will overcompensate that, I think that alone seems to me, unless you can replicate that somewhere healthily for women, like if there was something that women could take that would bring their natural reaction levels to where a man is,

then I don't think it can ever be safe. I think if a guy's an elite guy and a girl's an elite girl and the guy has one-tenth of a second quicker reaction time, that's gigantic. So that alone, and this is not a transphobic argument to me because I'm as completely open-minded as you can be. I try very hard to look at things from everybody's different point of view.

And I have zero issue with anyone wanting to change their gender. Zero. Me neither. I'll call you a woman. My issue only lies in combat sports because I just don't think it's fair. lies in combat sports because I just don't think it's fair. And, you know, there's been an argument and a good one, in fact, that I've considered as well that several people have said, well, what about women who are naturally more aggressive or naturally have more testosterone?

Like Serena Williams, who's a natural woman, but a really big, powerful athlete. It's a very good point because there's women that are not going to be able to compete with her physically if they have the same skills, you know, the same level of technical proficiency. It's the same argument. They're not going to be able to compete with her physically if they have the same skills, the same level of technical proficiency. It's the same argument they were talking about where one, I think it was Maurice Green, Maurice Green has an inordinate amount of testosterone in his blood naturally occurring, whereas another sprinter does not. So then nature is unfair in that sense. It's certainly unfair.

So now where's that? So if he has 300 milligram, I don't know how to measure it, but say 300 parts per million, and the other guy has 100 parts per million, would it be acceptable for him then to take hormone testosterone replacement therapy? Well, that's a good question. It's a good question, and that's a question that's actually recently been proposed by MMA fighters that are saying, well, listen, if these people are on testosterone replacement therapy, everybody should be allowed to be on it.

As long as your levels are the same. Because these people are taking, like if they have an issue, they're taking testosterone and it's jacking them up to a very high level that very few people maintain at their age limit. But that's the acceptable limit. That's not very scientific to me because I feel like there's always going to be people that have a natural level that's very high that gets beaten down during training. And it's not going to occur the same way in the person that's using

endogenous chemicals. So there's an issue with that. There's an issue that I think has not been fully and completely resolved. That's why sanctioning is by a state-by-state basis, a case-by-case basis. It's not like testosterone replacement therapy is not uniformly accepted across the board. In fact, in some places, fighters have had to go and fight in Winnipeg. I'm pretty sure Rashad Evans, who was on it, had to get, or not Rashad Evans, excuse me, Dan Henderson, who was on it, had to get off of it because they wouldn't allow him to take testosterone replacement and fight in Canada. So the UFC has a limit to what your testosterone can be? It's not the UFC.

Oh. It's the state. The UFC is just a promoter. Oh, I see. We are not the athletic bodies. So the Nevada State Athletic Commission, they look at things that way. But I think scientifically we have to agree that it's a real issue as far as a performance enhancer.

It's very significant. It gives you a significant advantage. And then also you have to realize what's next. When they do have these nanobots, nanobots, I know I said that. It's like when you say Afghanistan. Are you from France? Are you from England? Speaking in the Queen's English, there's nanobots. When they do have these things and you're taking them, Mick, just so you can hold your breath at the bottom of a pool and make a YouTube video for five hours, that's what they're going to be able to do, according to Ray Kurzweil. Yeah. Well, who wouldn't take that?

What are you, crazy? What do you want to drown? Well, also, what does it say about the Olympics, too, when you've got a swimmer who doesn't have to lift his head and time is going to be shattered. Exactly. Time is going to be closed for it. It's going to be shattered. But I think that in the idea of keeping sport pure, you can't hold back evolution.

And there's an evolution that we don't want to accept. It's a symbiotic evolution of humans and technology to create the new human. It's fucking happening, whether you like it or not. Samsung has a new watch now that tells you how fast your heart rate is, all the shit that's going on, how many calories you burn each day. Syncs up to your smartphone. How long before that thing is just embedded in your

skin? How long before they take your ear, your shitty designed ear, oh, you get an earache? How about we replace it with this carbon fiber thing they can hear on the moon? It's coming. It's coming. If you say no, you're stupid. You're just as stupid as someone who doesn't get their

bone fixed when it breaks. It's going to come with its own challenges, that's for sure. Oh, absolutely. Just like everything else we've ever done in life has come with challenges. I think the big thing is when we get aging addressed by these type of things, and people start living like 100 or 200 years, that's going to be a big problem. And that's not far away. That's not far away at all.

The first 150-year-old man has already been born. First 150-year-old man has already been born. First 150-year-old person. To me, it's absolutely and completely fascinating, this incredible time of change and this incredible time of possibility. The openings are just so much greater now than they've ever been before as far as the possibility for change.

Giant waves of change that will make the world almost impossible to comprehend to us right now. Like as freakish as the internet is for us today, I think what's going to be next in the next four or 500 years is going to blow all this away. If we manage to stay alive, we manage to not blow ourselves up. I think they're going to resolve so many issues, environmental issues, social issues, the structure of society, the way we distribute money. All these things are an echo of a shitty, ignorant time. And we're stuck with a lot of really crummy fucking infrastructure and a really crummy system of doing things and a really crummy

representation of the humans that are living on this planet as far as the distribution of resources the accumulation of accumulation of wealth i think we're going to figure all that out in the future it may be three four generations from now but when we figure out all our social shit if we figure out that at the same time they figured out a way to actually use pollution for energy, keep the world clean with technology, that's something that people don't look at as a possibility. I think that technology, though, is going to go ahead of the social change. So you're going to get this new technology, but you're going to have the same old social structures that you had before. And that's going to create this huge conflict where you're going to have this kind of a technological elite, but you're still going to have these masses of people who are just stuck in the old ways. It could be, but I don't think it has to be. I think there's a very distinct feeling that I get

from communicating with people over the last few years that more people are paying more attention to the way the world is run than ever before. More people are getting more sensitive about inequality than I feel like I felt in a long time. to the way the world is run than ever before. More people are getting more sensitive about inequality than I feel like I've felt in a long time. Steven Pinker's book said that in the 2000s, less people were killed violently than at any time in our history. And another guy wrote a book called The Rational Optimist. Have you read that?

It's a very good book. Matt Ridley, I think his name. Same idea, just where we're headed. There is progress the way you're talking about. More sort of, I guess, transparency and people not as ignorant, people at least having more access to information. Yeah, I don't think there's any evidence that points that people are going to continue to remain ignorant in the face of so much access to information that we have today.

I mean, it's just, this is a completely different world. The kids that are born in the last three or four years are growing up in a world that we couldn't even have fucking imagined. My little kid knows how to go onto iTunes and order more points for the game that she likes. She's five. She knows how to go to iTunes, add in this,

mommy, what's your password? She's fucking five. You know, when you try to follow the thread, add in this. Mommy, what's your password? She's fucking five. You know, when you try to follow the thread, if you were to say in seven generations, it feels like we're being pushed to move beyond our basic biology. Yes. That's what it feels like. And so if you were able to download information into one's brain or even reverse download the information in your brain into something as we were talking about,

then the question becomes, to what end is that? I've been trying to follow that thread. Why? What goes on? Say we are, because if you could tap into a neural net, have virtual experiences, what it is to be someone else, and we just get nudged closer and closer together into this sort of one sort of mind, if you will, which I think is not far-fetched. I mean, it's kind of where we're headed now, isn't it?

It's inevitable. I can do stand-up now in, you know, California and New York, it's kind of the same audience. It used to be very, very different. We're starting to, you know, you can do stand-up now Boy, did you just go selfish with that. I did, I did. We're talking about the unification of the entire world. It all comes back to stand-up, dude. Always comes back.

And you're talking about your audiences in New York. To Raleigh, North Carolina. You son of a bitch. No, but I wonder then, what do you think is the end result, though? What do you think is, where are we going with that? Well, the theory is, like, the singularity is that all of humanity and all technology were combined into this one thing. But I think it's going to be a remarkable set of circumstances that would have to happen for that to come about. I think it's inevitable. I think that remarkable set of circumstances is inevitable. We're not going to stop. If it takes five years

or 500 years, I don't know. I don't know how long it's going to take. But if innovation continues to move forward in the same exponential rate of progression that it's shown... If we don't blow up the planet, you say. Well, not only that, it's not just that. That's one. The other ones that are way bigger are the natural ones like the hundreds of thousands of near-earth objects that could be fucking zooming at us 45 000 miles an hour from behind the sun and those things are going to slam into us again it's happened before there's a lot of recent information that shows that uh more than 10000 years ago, there was a series of major impacts all throughout the world. They found volcanic glass all throughout Asia and Europe that indicates meteor showers.

They got that Clovis comet that they've now confirmed hit somewhere around 12,500 years ago. These are like not that big, a gap between us and that. That's not that long ago. 12,000 years ago, there was some extinction events. North America was wiped out. That's happened. Then it's just some shit that comes out of the sky. Maybe just climate change, though.

There's going to be a slow death of civilization. Slow death of Miami. That's for fuck's sake. As a skeptic, are you a believer in global warming? You hear a lot of people saying, well, it's... Yeah, yeah. I think the science behind it is really solid, that there has been warming over the last 100 years,

and man is behind it. So the question is, what do you do about it? Yeah, it gets obscured with the argument that it's a natural cycle, because that's true. There is a natural cycle of heating and cooling, and there have been times before people, like the Ice Age, when when North America had a mile high sheet of ice a part of it. There was a big chunk of this country that was a glacier. But that maybe have changed without human interaction or human intervention or human causation. But that doesn't mean

that this is. The idea that just because the Earth's temperature fluctuates doesn't mean that we don't influence it. It's pretty obvious we influence it. You'd have to be crazy to fly above the city and look at how many fucking planes are crisscrossing the skies and how much smog is down there, and you fly over cities and see the pollution. To think that's having no impact is just silly.

It's just silly. When I was saying that about the science being solid, it made me think of what I said earlier about the chemtrail people. They have a similar kind of point of view about chemtrails. They think the science is solid on chemtrails, but we think the science is solid on global climate change. And their perception of what I'm saying is going to be exactly the same as my perception of them. The science of what they're pointing to, some of it is so nutty. And one of the ones that I argued with this guy who created the documentary was straight off of your site. The science of what they're pointing to, some of it is so nutty.

And one of the ones that I argued with this guy who created the documentary was straight off of your site. We went to Nick's site, and Nick has this thing on his site where it shows the study that this gentleman was quoting in his documentary. It shows the results of the soil sample, well, the sludge sample that he was saying was a water sample. of the soil sample, well, a sludge sample, that he was saying was a water sample. And so I'm going over this information with him, and he's assuring me of the veracity of these tests, and I know what this guy told me, that this is water. But it says on the sample, sludge.

And so he tests this stuff, and we read the results of the test, and it says, you you know X amount of aluminum and X amount of barren it basically has the same composition as what a lot of dirt has like you've you scooped up some dirt you're gonna find a lot of aluminum in it it's like a really natural occurring seven percent it's an amazing amount yeah it's everywhere it's the most yeah it's the one of the most common minerals so I say to this guy like do you understand that you're saying that your dirt tested positive for being dirt?

That's what this says. Like, that's crazy. But that is the best piece of evidence that chemtrails are real. You know, so everyone's saying, like, the high levels of aluminum, high levels of barium. Aluminum is everywhere, okay? It's fucking everywhere. And if you knew that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Okay?

It's fucking everywhere. And if you knew that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you knew that aluminum was in dirt all over the fucking world, you wouldn't be worried about people spraying it from the sky. Why would they do that? It's everywhere. Right. It's everywhere. And if it was in the sky, and this is what really got me annoyed,

talk to many people that believe that those clouds are aluminum and something else like floating in the air. But if you talk to anybody who's actually seen aluminum, it wouldn't look anything like a fucking cloud. It wouldn't look like a cloud and it wouldn't stay in the air. It wouldn't just float there. It's got weight to it. Right. It's not mist. Like what you're looking at is actual clouds. It's not like you, like when they sky write, that's smoke.

But even that doesn't last. It dissipates. When they fly over and you see a big, fat, heavy contrail, that's a fucking cloud, man. That's not aluminum. That's a cloud. Yeah, and it's not even really coming out of the back of the plane. The plane is just triggering it. It's making a cloud form by just adding a little bit of water.

That's the spray nozzles condensing the air. The spray nozzles have been documented on my website, infowars.com. We've got high-resolution photographs, Brian Callen. They're spraying your children with boron and lithium. What's your stance

on Tower 7? What do you want to know? Because that's one of the things that drives me the most crazy. I just, I'm like, please stop. You know, do you think it... Wait a minute, it drives you the most crazy. I'm just like, please stop. Do you think it was... Wait a minute, it drives you the most crazy that people talk about it as a conspiracy?

Yeah. Why is it driving you crazy? Because it's just people thinking that it was exploded. Do you believe that? No, I think it just caught fire and it collapsed. Yeah. Now, the heat that it says it made, there's some people saying that it was... There's a huge amount of different things that people bring up in 9-11.

And it's one of the big problems with debunking is that there's just an endless stream of things that people will bring up. They'll say, what about the hotspots? What about the free fall? What about the little bits of fire? What about the squib explosions on the side of the building? And you can go through each one of them and you can address each one individually and explain what's actually going on. Well, let me tell you how I approached it. I looked at it, the first thing I said,

oh my God, they detonated that thing for sure. I said, the way I looked to me, like the thing exploded or rather collapsed into its foundation. I'd never seen a building do that before. It had a hole in the side of it where it had been hit by the towers that were falling. And even though there was this big chunk missing from one side

it fell uniformly, kinked in the middle and fell like a controlled demolition and so I was looking at it and I was like, you know what? That looks like a fucking controlled demolition and then I realized that I'm stupid and I'm not an engineer at all and I don't know the tolerances of fire

and metal and the weight of the concrete and I'm looking at this and yeah it did fall free fall speed but maybe that's what fucking happens when you get this and people like well there's never been a building that's ever burnt to the ground it fell like that and collapsed that's true but there's also never been a bridge like that giant bridge in minnesota that just collapsed and those people were driving over it remember Remember that? It was a big fucking tragedy, man. The bridge just collapsed. Sometimes people, they design shit, and then when they put it together, it sucks.

And sometimes you have these giant fires that exposes the fact that your design sucks. That's exactly what happened. They had to change building codes afterwards because of the reason the building didn't collapse, they think, is that they had these very long spans of the floor and one end wasn't secured as well as the other end, so it pushed one end

off and that fell and that kind of caused a chain reaction. Pull it up, Brian. Let's look at it in real time. It is incredible how fast it falls. It literally falls free fall speed. It's like the whole thing gives out uniformly and it just collapses into its base

That video is very misleading because a lot of the times people show you this video of the building collapsing and they show it from After where the penthouse falls where the penthouse is falling and in World Trade Center is showing the interior of the building is collapsing Hmm and when you actually see the building itself collapsing, there's pretty much nothing left of the building It's just the outside of the building. The inside is either it's either collapsed or it's in the process of collapsing. You've got this very strong skin outside. That's the other thing about Building 7, the interior joints. Here we're going to show it up on this big screen in a second. Isn't there the idea of jet fuel burning so hot that it melts metal?

Yeah, it's nonsense though because it doesn't burn hot enough to melt it. It burns hot enough to weaken it. Here, let's watch it here. Let's watch the sucker go down. Ready? Yeah, you see, that's like several seconds into the collapse. I'm going to tell you something, though. If I was Larry Silverstein, I would sue the fuck out of whoever built me that

shitty building. God damn. Because if that isn't some grand conspiracy, the CIA, the DEA, they have their documents in that building along with major banks. Isn't that part of the conspiracy? Yeah, it is. It is.

But is that true? It is true, right? Yeah, they had some documents in there and they lost a bunch of stuff. Those sons of bitches are in on it. It was also backed up on a computer. No, no, no. No backup. They don't do backup.

They write things down on paper. It was all in that building. It's all on paper. And they bluded that shit up. They bluded that shit up to protect the evidence. And I'm not saying that Alex is wrong, again, because I am stupid. But I would be fucking pissed off if I made that building and it fell apart like that. God damn, I'd be mad.

I don't think he expected that to happen either. The building was to code, though. They just didn't know that that type of thing was going to happen. The idea that they could have giant diesel fucking tanks in the basement that's running everything they had giant diesel tanks Yeah, like that's part of what started this massive inferno. No, I didn't destroy it didn't that's more horseshit No, yeah, the diesel tanks. They actually recovered a whole bunch of that diesel So they had diesel tanks the whole buildings on fire. Yeah, and the diesel tanks didn't catch on fire Yeah, cuz they were the whole building wasn't on fire

It was like several floors and several sections of it, but the sections with the diesel, they were isolated, and they didn't burn. They didn't contribute to the... Hold on a second. So you're saying that whole thing wasn't on fire? If it wasn't on fire, how the fuck did this happen? Lots of it was on fire.

Only two major floors, I believe, right? That's it? No, no, there was like two floors that had the big collapse. I can't remember which they were, but I think it was 17 and 18. So how many floors are on fire here? Well, most of the floors are on fire on the south side. If you look at the south side of the building, the entire thing is engulfed in smoke. South side's always cooler.

Why is that? Everywhere you go. Everywhere you go, baby. On the south side of Chicago. The biggest thing is that I just read Lawrence Wright's Pulitzer Prize winning book called The Looming Tower. And he takes five exhaustive years to study the origins of 9-11 and this sort of Islamic fundamentalist movement that started in Saudi Arabia and moved to the Sudan and moved to Afghanistan. I mean, if you really, I always say. Hey, look up at the screen.

There's the fires. Read that book. That's totally different. The whole side is on fire. That book was designed by the government. It is a disinformation campaign. It's been proven on Infowars.com. Yeah, look at that.

I just have to take the Alex Jones point of view because I'm sure he has documents. He's my friend. I like it. Oh, didn't he thought smoke? There's one entire column in the middle of that thing. Yeah, I don't feel comfortable with that being enough to bring that fucking building down. I'm being honest with you.

Well, what he's saying is that it pretty much did a collapse. Like one of the floors fucked, like fell down. Oh, I understand the whole concept, but I don't buy it. It's not just based on fire, though. I don't buy it. I think the DEA, the NSA, they place thermite in the building. It's fluoride. I'm just being honest.

I look at that, and the way it collapses, like, god, I think it would need to be really, really, really, really fucked up. The explanation of why it collapses is just a bit too complicated. But why is it too complicated to all those architects and engineers for 9-11 Truth? Are those guys all crazy

heads? They're just kind of the fringe, bottom of the barrel of the architects and engineers. Oh, how dare you? How dare you discredit them? Ad hominem attacks on these fine gentlemen. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of them who are very good at what they do, but they're not generally experts in structural engineering

of large buildings and their reactions to fire. Because when that building was built, the people who were engineers at that time thought that it was perfectly safe, and they thought if there was a fire, it wasn't gonna collapse because they didn't factor in this one thing. You know, I look at it and it looks like

a controlled demolition to me, but again, I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is, remember the story I told you about Ted Nugent shooting the deer in the side and the arrow comes out of the top of it? Weird shit fucking happens sometimes. And you get some asshole who made you a shitty ass building.

This building, man. This building sucks a fat one, dude. And it's got a little bitty fire in it. It just collapses. I mean, that's not really a little bitty fire. Dude, it's not enough to bring down a giant building. Well, it did. Or the CIA

had documents. What about the thermite? Can you disprove the thermite, McQuist? Well, you can't disprove anything. Hey, hey, hey. Stop trying to skirt around my questions with your New World Order flim flam. Do you disprove thermite? You know what really bummed me out?

There was a photo that someone had sent me. Like, look at this, dude. This is proof that there had to be some sort of thermite involved in the cutting of the steel at the base of the building. Fact. And this guy turned out to be,

he's an author of questionable literature. It's just, no, I think all of his stuff is fucking cuckoo head shit. Because I looked at it, and I found out that, no, that's not what it is. They actually put that stuff on. They actually cut those things at the end

when they were doing cleanup. That's from a torch. They sliced it down with a steel-cutting torch. What was? I'm sorry. People were sending these emails, these mass emails showing these cuts that had been made during cleanup when the towers fell down.

There was this devastating, right, right, right, right. There was this devastating, destructive, huge impact. They had to clean up all the debris, and they had to cut a lot of it up. And in the photos of the stuff cut up, people were sending it around as proof of thermite. They used thermite. Look at it sliced at an angle. Could not have been possibly created by the explosion of the building. That's a fire right there.

That's a big ass fire. How many floors is that though? Is that enough to bring down my building? I'll fucking sue you bitch. That was my building? Nearly all of the video is from the north side

of the tower so you can only see these very small fires because all the fires started when the World Trade Center 2 or 1 I understand

for the record I just want to let everyone know when I say that it looks like a controlled demolition I'm definitely not saying that it is or not saying it does look like one. It does look like one. I understand. I understand it for the record. I just want to let everybody know. When I say that it looks like a controlled demolition, I'm definitely not saying that it is. It does look like one. It does look like one. And I'm not saying that I have any right to

debate the structural merits of this building. I know nothing. I'm completely retarded when it comes to that. And my dad's an architect. Oh, is he? I guess I could call him up and ask him some questions. You make a good point about the fact that you have a lot of so-called experts on that Truth Commission thing, the people, the truthers.

Bottom of the barrel, architects. Or their expertise isn't huge structures and how they respond to fire and impact. I mean, that's a specific understanding. And shitty contractors who fuck you over make you a building that when you light a couple of floors on fire it just fucking falls apart I did see huge planes fly into those buildings oh no the other one that's tower 7

silly bitch that's the big argument tower 7 is the only building that never fell I used to work right near there it's really sad there's a lot of people that live in that area too that stayed after the impact, and they were inhaling chemicals, toxic chemicals, on a daily basis. Like Donna Summers, man.

Donna Summers died of lung cancer. No. Yes. And she lived in that area. Wow. Yeah, she lived right near the towers. Yeah, a lot of people. And she died of lung cancer.

She didn't even smoke. Yeah, it happened to a lot of people. It's not a small thing. I mean, the impact of that thing is... A lot of firemen have lung disease. Cops, too. EMT workers, all first responders. A lot of those guys got really, really, really sick.

Yeah, that's something that doesn't get taken into consideration when you talk about the death toll of those things. But that is a really worthy thing to think about, as opposed to the idea that the government engineered it, and there was this conspiracy, these guys didn't even know how to fly, and some of the hijackers are still alive, they're in Saudi Arabia. Man, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what happened.

But there's been, like I said don't know. I don't know. I don't know what happened. But there's been, I mean, like I said, there's been so much good journalism, I mean, good investigative and exhaustive journalism that will tell you the story. There's so many different stories, though. That's part of the problem. It's complicated. Like, people don't have the time for these complicated stories. They have to read a whole book.

Here's one point that I bring up whenever people talk about conspiracy theories. I say, do you believe in 9-11? And when they say they do, and I say, well then you believe in conspiracy theories. Because people conspired, they pulled that off, and they did it. And it was a real conspiracy. And that shit is real. And it does

happen. Just like a lot of other conspiracies that happened throughout time that were absolutely proven to be real events. There's a lot of them. There's not just one or two. There's a lot of other conspiracies that happened throughout time that were absolutely proven to be real events. That's a good point. There's a lot of them. There's not just one or two. I believe in a conspiracy theory that from all the evidence that I've read, and that seems credible, that a group of dedicated fanatics under the banner of fundamentalist Islam got together, got financed, and pulled off this pretty amazing feat,

which was very difficult. See, I wouldn't say that I believe that entirely without any pause, because I don't know anything about flying a plane, okay? I don't know anything about being able to do the maneuvers that those people have done, but I've seen these specials where they break down whether or not a plane would actually be able to hit the Pentagon like it did and take the path that it did, and that the people can't reproduce that in the simulator, and that they have been able to control planes by the use of drone technology. They've been able to do that since the 1960s. In fact, that was part of the Northwoods document. Part

of the Northwoods document was exploding a fake plane and pretending it was filled with people. We're going to take a drone plane and fly it up and blow it up. We know this was a commercial airline. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. It's still a plane, and we know that you can control a plane. We could control a jet with drone technology as far back as the 1960s. So whether or not that was a part of what got maybe these guys took over, they had to take over the cockpit to allow

that to take place, we don't know. They're dead. But the maneuvers that those jets did, it could have easily been something like someone had hijacked and hacked into the system and figured out how to turn the jet into a drone. Those maneuvers really weren't that difficult. I've talked to a lot of pilots. The one that went into the Pentagon?

Yeah. Really? People talk about it being this like, you know, death spiral that they had to do. But if you look at it on the map, it's really just a very slow descending 360 loop. But at an incredible speed, right? By a guy who wasn't an experienced pilot and had no experience flying those kind of jets. That's just the speed that the planes fly at. It doesn't actually make any difference to the maneuvering because it's all relative. Well, Occam's Razor, two things. One, you're certainly right.

The more likely scenario is that they pulled off these incredible maneuvers, these incredible bangs. They weren't incredible. More likely. They weren't. Well, for these people who didn't know how to fly. For a guy like me, it's incredible. They did.

They went to school for it. They went to school. And we have FBI. One of the biggest things, the FBI never shared that information with the CIA for a whole bunch of reasons, mainly because they, in some ways, weren't even allowed to, because there's always been a firewall between FBI, between spying on domestic and international, and there's actually laws involved. But one of the things that we know for sure is that these people in the CIA knew that,

I mean, the FBI knew this this and we have documents about this. We knew these people were studying, we're at flight simulation schools. We know that. So, you know. They had their commercial licenses. The guy flew into the Pentagon. No, listen. That's very hard to get. Right. It's not something you just get from like, you know, flying Microsoft Flight Simulator for a few hours. It's something you have to do hours and hours and hours of practice. I totally understand. And like I said, most likely that's what happened. But I also leave open the possibility that they had an insurance policy and they didn't allow these guys to decide whether or not

they wanted to fly right into a fucking building and smash into it. I don't know. That's not Occam's Razor, though. No, it's not. No, Occam's Razor, I said, was the first part. I agree with you. That's what I'm saying. I don't have a dog in this race.

What I'm saying is that I do know that there was some sort of technology that allowed them to use drone technology to control jets as far back as 1960s. Not saying that that's what happened, but saying that what you saw could be replicated with drones. I think the technology is there. But any amateur pilot could probably have pulled off what they were doing. It really wasn't that hard. It's not that hard certainly to fly into the buildings wasn't that hard.

My father said that. My father was a pilot for 20 years and he said that's very easy to do. Steering a plane is pretty much easier than steering a car. Yeah, really easy to do. Well, why don't they release the videos of the Pentagon being hit by the plane? There is a question, ladies and gentlemen. Why is that, by the way? Why don't we have video of those planes flying into the Pentagon?

We do have that one from the parking garage where you can see it for a few frames. Yeah. It looks more like a missile to me, Miss Quest. I would just, I don't see any reason why there would be, like, you know know that many video cameras pointing out that parking lot at the side Well, that's not the case though. There are there are videos There certainly are videos of video cameras and video cameras where their their videos were taken, right? It was like they they had shown that there had been more than one video of this. This was the only one They were apparently pointing

Within inside sort of where it was security cameras They're not like cameras pointing out, looking for planes coming in. I thought there was more than one. I thought that, I'm pretty sure. There was a gas station, supposedly.

Yeah, something like that, like a gas station or something nearby where they had a video of it and they gave it to the FBI and the FBI just took it. But, you know,

the other thing is like, why, why put it out there? I mean, if you, if you were the FBI, let's say, or the,

who the fuck is in charge of this, right? You're going door to door and finding out who's got security cam videos. Would you want those videos to go on the internet? We've already got these giant towers that fell. There's a video of that. It's already embarrassing enough. Would you just sweep the thing up that shows the hit of the Pentagon? Because you know how many times they're going to show that? They're going to show the main war building getting hit by a jet.

Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar! All their videos are going to start with that. They're going to show the main war building getting hit by a jet. Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar! All their videos are going to start with that. The jet hitting the Pentagon. We're coming back for you. Boom. That's an iconic building. And if you did have a video of it blowing up... I guess they didn't have it. Supposedly, it didn't

record anything. Yeah, that's what I would say, too. It's kind of the same idea. I was always surprised that they never really brought bin Laden's body back. I know they didn't want to have a shrine for people to come to, so they didn't even see it.

I don't buy that. I don't buy that one. I don't buy the bin Laden one. I think that dude had been dead for a long time. I think they probably jacked some guy who looked like him and said, let's just take that frozen bin Laden sickle out

and toss it in the ocean. That bin Laden sickle. And say, we got this bitch. Obama's like, listen, I'm going to work with you. You're going to work with me. You're going to get me into office. I'm going to look like a hero. This is what I need.

I need that bin Laden sickle. They had that break glass in case of publicity. They had that with a bin Laden sickle just sitting in there. They had to wait for a moment. I met a guy who was on the raid. I met a SEAL Team 6 guy. Yeah, I bet he told you this while he was fucking you in the ass.

And then, let me tell you something, Brian. When I kicked that door open, oh, I'm gonna come grab my balls. Oh, this is weird. Listen, man, I killed Bin Laden, bro. Where's the end of the story? I killed Bin Laden. Turns out your boy wasn't even a SEAL team 6 guy. Where are you going? He's just a crazy gay guy that likes to fuck actors. He just likes to hold actors down and make stories.

I'm straight. I took it up the ass so I wanted to hear the end. I did it for my country. Damn it. I did it for Pat Tillman. He needs to know the truth. So that's the big one that people will bring up, back to the conspiracy theory, is the Tower 7 one. I actually like to bring that one up because people are like,

did you know that three buildings fell on 9-11? And they make out like this big thing that's been covered up. It's covered up. It's totally covered up. It's not even on the internet. Oh, wait. I think it's best if you're actually talking with a 9-11 truth or I want to go straight to Building 7 and talk about that. Oh, go right from the get-go?

Yeah, because it's the thing that they think is the real biggest bit of evidence. Well, it certainly looks like a controlled demolition, like you admit. Headlines of conspiracy theory. Mick West admits 9-11 looks like a controlled demolition. That is... I mean, they could use that as a quote. That is what happens. That is a quote. It does look like a controlled demolition.

Yeah, there's this Dutch demolition expert and there's this famous video of him saying, oh, that looks like a controlled demolition. And he goes into how they might have done it. But the thing they don't show is that 10 minutes earlier, he's looking at the towers falling and said, oh, there's no way that could have been a controlled demolition, and he goes into how they might have done it. But the thing they don't show is that 10 minutes earlier, he's looking at the towers falling and says, oh, there's no way that could have been a controlled demolition. Oh, really? Yeah.

Really? Same guy, same interview. Oh, and they don't... That's very Michael Moore of them. But they do show... Yeah. That's very Michael Moore of them. You can't do that, right?

No. You've got to show both sides. Because then you're just selling entertainment. Well, I don't mind that, but you've got to let me know. Yeah. Have a disclaimer. Say, listen, there's some arguments but you've got to let me know. Have a disclaimer. Say, listen, there's some arguments against this, but fuck them. It's not their movie.

Right. Then don't call it a documentary. Then it's a movie, not a documentary. I would do that. I would play the whole movie, and then I would use the trailer at the end. The trailer's all me getting owned. I could trick you. I gave a movie where I pretend that I had a point,

and I uncovered some secrets, but really I left out all the arguments against my stupid theories. At the end of it, I just got owned, and I didn't play that until the very end. I'd watch it. People get mad at you. People think that you're a government agent. I've had more than one person tell me to look out

Mick West is a government agent Are you a government agent? See that's you can't say that because now that's First of all why didn't he just say no Ask me Brian Callen ask me Joe Rogan are you a government agent? No duh Mick? Yes I am

No I'm not but I think You're fucking contradictory I believe you less and less every moment. I'm not saying that. I think it's actually like a useful exercise for people to assume that I am a government agent. Well, that makes... And then say, what have I said that's wrong? Ooh, that's cool.

We are both actually in the Illuminati, by the way. You're in the Illuminati too? Bitch, you didn't tell me. Why wouldn't you tell me? Because they give you a cool vodka and headphones. Is there a conspiracy theory or is there something for both of you because I know you've been doing this show now.

Is there something that you had trouble explaining where you just kind of went, well, that is pretty amazing. Nothing that springs to mind, but the thing is that there are real conspiracies out there. That's his point. What I like the thing is that there are, like, you know, real conspiracies out there. That's his point, is what I like about Mick is that he is skeptical,

but he also is realistic about what has and hasn't taken place. It's not like you're trying to debunk everything that's a conspiracy, and that becomes a problem because of that word. That word conspiracy is a weird word. Like, even though there are people

that conspire to do things, you know, even though, you know, did Oswald kill JFK? I don't know. I don't know if Oswald killed JFK, but I know that there was someone who conspired to kill JFK and got away with it. I know there was a lot of, a lot of things that happened. There's a lot of people involved, you know, whether it was whoever the Cubans or whoever hired Oswald or whether it was other people that were in the grassy knoll, which is still a distinct possibility, still a distinct possibility. There's just not enough evidence. And the fuckery involved in the JFK assassination is at an all-time high. Just the fact that they concluded that a third bullet,

or that this bullet had, they had found a chipped curbstone underneath the overpass, and because of that they had to attribute all these different wounds to one bullet. That's where the magic bullet theory came from. Much more realistic possibilities that it was hit by more than one bullet. Much more realistic.

Not only that, much more realistic to think that they really did hire this mob guy to fucking sneak past all these cops and shoot Oswald before he could talk, which they did. It's not like this mob guy was this guy who was like, you know, I'm fucking pro-America and this fucking cocksucker's not going to kill my president. And he ran up on him with the cops there knowing his life was on the line. Yeah. Please. That guy got talked into it.

He owed money. He owed something. When you look at the Jack Ruby story, that's a guy who was a crook his whole life, involved in organized crime his whole life, complete degenerate scumbag, club owner, deep in bed with a mob, probably had a gambling problem. Please. Yeah, that's interesting.

There's a conspiracy there. There's no doubt about it. The magic bullet thing, though, I think that's one of the things that has become accepted in the conspiracy culture as being just, it's an article of faith that it was impossible for the magic bullet to have happened. It's also an article of faith that it was possible when you consider the fact that it showed up on the gurney, on Connolly's gurney in the hospital.

Oh, look, we found the bullet in almost pristine condition. Well, we're totally trustworthy type people, so buy it, please. But the magic bullet has been replicated a couple of times. I haven't seen that, really? Where is that? Yeah, I think it was a Discovery Channel thing. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. They didn't replicate it. I know what you're talking about. They only replicated it when it didn't hit bone. They did replicate it, but when it was a Discovery Channel thing or... Oh, no, no, no, no, no. They didn't replicate it. I know what you're talking about. They only replicated it when it didn't hit bone.

They did replicate it, but when it hit bone, every time it hit bone, it became contorted and distorted. But they did it through gel. They did it through a bunch of different things that mimic human tissue. It's very difficult to get exactly what happened, but they got something that was close enough that it seemed plausible.

Oh, I disagree. I disagree on that one because I've seen that special. I know exactly... I know the guy who... I think I know the guy who was involved in that. There wasn't a Jesse Ventura one. Was it a Mythbusters one? Yes. Todd, the guy who produced my show, also did some work on Mythbusters.

That's a good show. I have to ask him what the exact specifics were. I think I've seen a couple of them. Yeah, I mean, now I'm thinking it's not even a Mythbusters one. But they had a jelly thing with, like, bone in it. And when it hit the bone, it would get fucked up. More fucked up than that bullet. I mean, that bullet was in pretty amazing shape.

Even if it did, let's say that, obviously, I wasn't there. I don't know whether or not the magic bullet really took the trajectory that it's being attributed to. But let's say if it did. It's amazing. It's amazing that the bullet came out like that. Doesn't mean that it's not possible, but it's amazing. It's amazing that it went through two people,

caused all that damage, left fragments inside their bodies that they had to remove. I mean, pretty incredible when you look at what it looks like. So is it impossible? Of course I would never say that. I don't know.

I think the biggest thing is Jack Ruby actually running in and shooting. There's no reason. That was very interesting to me. It's fascinating. Fascinating Oswald. So obviously they wanted Oswald quiet. Jack Ruby didn't do that because he felt bad for Jackie.

There's more than enough evidence to indicate that there was more than one person involved. It wasn't just him. Just by the paper trail. I mean, the fact that the guy the guy in the Soviet Union I mean he had a Russian wife brought her back with him I mean this guy was like a he was involved in some really weird shit and just that alone like if Oswald was the shooter and it was just Oswald man there had to be a lot of other people involved in this this is not something

he decided to do his own one? I couldn't believe how steep that trajectory was. He shot right down on him, which I thought he shot... Yeah. He didn't do it. He fucking shot that guy for the grassy knoll. Overall, do you think he did it? I would probably err on the side of him doing it. I think there's lots of unanswered questions. There's hundreds and hundreds of books being written from both perspectives on it. I don't think it's a question we're ever really going to answer. And it's a really hard one to debunk

because you can't do it satisfactorily. Even things like The Magic Bullet, it's really really hard to actually prove that that would have happened. You can prove that something like that might have happened, but it's maybe kind of unlikely and it was just a lucky shot. And there's things like the back and to to the left thing where then his head goes back to the left uh and

it's you know i've had long debates about that on on the forum and uh it's just a very hard thing to convince people that that might have been like you know the bullet hitting from behind and his head goes back uh because like you know bullets don't actually impart that much velocity into people's heads when they get shot in the head. But people, you know, they have these articles of faith that because his head went back into the left, that he must have been shot from the front, so there must have been another gunman. Well, you know what? I actually kind of disagree that it goes back into the left initially. I think the initial spray actually comes forward, which is virtually impossible

if you're getting shot from the front. And I think there is something that people need to consider. I think he was shot from all over the place. I think the hole in the trach, that they made a trach hole in his neck, I think that's an impact wound. I think it's been pretty well argued

based on the difference between the autopsy report in Dallas and between the autopsy report in Dallas and then the autopsy report in Bethesda, Maryland, that they were looking at two totally different things. They were describing wounds in a different way. And it's been widely reported that they had generals standing over the hospital bed directing doctors on how to report this stuff. If that's true, and if there really were military people that are allowed inside the operating room when the president's body was brought in and they really did define where the wounds came from, who knows what the motive would have been in 1963 in a mad scramble when the president's been murdered.

Who knows how much shitty thinking is involved, how much of it is a personality conflict between a general and a doctor who doesn't want him in the room. Who knows what the fuck is going on? Who knows? But if I was was gonna shoot the president I wouldn't count on one guy to pull it off Why would you do that if you can get one really Harvey Oswald asshole? You can get five more dudes sitting the grassy knoll and fucking peck this guy off as he's driving towards you You're not gonna shoot. You're not gonna if there's a grand conspiracy to kill the president, which most likely there was I

Just don't see Oswald being like, I'm going to do this on my own. I don't need any help. Although assassins have always, a lot of times, been people who were on the fringe of some kind of movement. Sure. But they were generally and essentially loners, I think, for the most part.

Guys who had always had trouble fitting in and were trying to look to be significant. And we're loosely attached to several different organizations or one organization, whether it was a – and usually a general. Well, how many of them have there been that you can make such a rash generalization? I'm thinking about Booth's. I'm thinking about the guy who – John Hinckley, the guy who tried to kill Reagan. Well, I'm thinking actually more specifically of the guy who shot the Archduch Ferdinand

and his wife at the beginning of World War – that sort of sparked World War I. I'm thinking about the guy who shot the Archduch Ferdinand and his wife at the beginning of World War, that sort of sparked World War I. I'm thinking about the guy who assassinated Lincoln. These guys were, one was a Serbian terrorist. They're lone nuts. How do we know that all those weren't conspiracies, too? That someone was behind the scenes manipulating, a lot of manipulating Brian Callen even back then. When you're part of a group that has a stated mission and goal, which is what,

I can't remember the guy's name who killed, but look at Sirhan Sirhan who shot, you know, Bobby Kennedy, the guy who tried to assassinate the Pope.

Yeah. These people were generally, you know, loners. We did Fear Factor in that kitchen. Did you? Yeah.

It was creepy. Walked right through that bitch. It's like, how is this not like a part of history? That's in LA, right? It's not even there anymore. I'm pretty sure they tore it down.

It was like a landmark. It was a hotel and they were using it for filming. People would do B-horror movies there. I think I shot there actually. You shot film there. Jesus Christ, Brian. I'm an actor. Jesus Christ.

You were just talking about assassins and you basically named yourself. You're talking about what a loner you are How you go against the grain? Who you make impulsive decisions? I'm a contrarian I think JFK those one of those conspiracies there is that you can never really I love that you're willing to admit that it's It's like, you know everything so far in the past,

the evidence has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb, and there's still all these like... Case closed! I hate those guys. Shut up. On both sides, you get people who say it's definitive one way or the other, but then there's just so much that's unknown about it

that you're never going to be able to close it. But there are conspiracy theories that you can prove that aren't going on, like the chemtrail thing. And there are aspects of the broader theories, like JFK and 9-11, that you can address. You can address individual points of evidence. But I don't think you're ever really going to be able to debunk 9-11. It's just going to go on forever, basically. There's always going to be some people who are going to think that it was an inside job. Hitler burned a Reichstag. Nero burned Rome.

Of course, you know all these things. You're a student of history. Being a disinformation agent from another country, it probably taught you about America and our history of this great land before you came over here. You sound like Man Cow. No, no, no, no. He's more Chicago-based.

I did his radio show. Is he still around? Well, he's sort of like putting on an act. He puts on an act a bit. Like, we had an argument, a fake argument, about Carlos Mencia. He was wearing his sunglasses at 7 in the morning. I was like, this isn't going to go well.

He was running back. I don't know. Those guys that wear sunglasses in studio are problematic. Oh, my God. What are you doing? He was acting like a rock star. Like he was doing something, like flying a spaceship. I was like, bro, relax.

You're just doing a radio show. I'm feeling good about this look. Oh, there it is, ladies and gentlemen. Put it on the back of your neck. Joe Rogan's famous man cow. You know what? This is how you know you're slipping when you take pictures like this. Sorry, Anthony Bourdain.

I love you. That's when you know you're slipping. Anthony Bourdain's picture of the CNN picture is like this. Sorry, Anthony Bourdain. I love you. That's when you know you're slipping. Anthony Bourdain's pictures, the CNN pictures like this. I love that guy. You really can't. He gets away with it. He does. He gets a free pass on everything he does.

He's my boyfriend. He's awesome. I love that guy. Yeah, you do. You're actually, you got a man crush on Bourdain. He's a great guy. He's one of the few people that I was giddy about getting to eat dinner with. I've had dinner with him and drinks and got lit up in Montreal together.

Oh, he's a beautiful person, man. We talked until like fucking 3 o'clock in the morning until they kicked us out of the bar. He just knows so much. Just a great guy. Just a great, interesting guy that sees the world and didn't become famous until he was older in life. So he's very appreciative of it and very balanced. And he's all about like putting in the work. He's all about like just living the life and just reporting it.

The guy we shot, we did Meat Eater with was one of his cameramen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're talking about it. Yeah, boy, if you want to have a fucking cushy gig as a cameraman,

with a cool gig rather, Bourdain and then Meat Eater. Two totally different things. One of them, you're staying at Four Stars hotels. The other one, you're in a fucking

bag of cloth. God. It's 16,000 degrees below zero and you're trying to kill a buffalo with a spear. This show Meat Eater is... I'd have to say it's my favorite show. It's the show I look forward to the most especially after Brian and I, we went hunting on it.

This guy, he goes hunting. He does fair chase hunts. He goes out in the middle of like... He goes to Alaska. This week was Alaska. He was hunting bearsinaldo. Goes out in the middle of like, you know, he goes to Alaska, like this week was Alaska. He was hunting bears that were searching for blueberries in the high altitude.

Did you, did you get, did you get your gear yet? Yes. I haven't, I haven't. I've been slacking. Get your shit,

bitch. Ryan Callahan. Get ready. We're going again. Ryan Callahan, I gotta come, Callahan, I gotta call you.

How about you email him? Don't use the podcast, you fuck. Oh, sorry. What other, what other conspiracies are like big ones that you get asked to debunk all the time? Well, people bring up things like UFOs.

What about Elvis? Elvis is bullshit? He's alive? He just decided enough was enough, man. Didn't want the life. There's the Michael Hastings thing. Ah, the Michael Hastings thing. And this is where you're going to show what a government shill you really are.

Yeah. You're going to tell me the Michael Hastings car wasn't rigged to explode and fly into that tree at 100 miles an hour? I guess it looks exactly like he was just driving like a crazy guy and he hit a tree. He hit a bump in the road. That never happens. Maybe the government used their mind control. Everyone's looking for a drone. It's not a drone.

They don't turn your car into a drone. That technology is not available yet. But they can Manchurian candidate you. They can get inside your mind and convince you that for the greater good of mankind and the cause that you're involved in, drive into a fucking truck. Joe, I found the photos when actually we were – I went to set with you on Fear Factor the day that we went to that hotel. And I found the photos that I took of the kitchen before it was torn down. Old school. Old school stuff.

So he was shot in that kitchen? Yeah. Wow. That's creepy shit. Yeah. 17 different gunshots rang out in three seconds. You tell me how that's possible with one shooter. Mick West, go ahead.

Your turn. I don't know. Sirhan Sirhan was a Buddhist. Who killed Biggie? He ate flowers. Or Tupac. Do you even follow those kind of things? You don't debunk Biggie and Tupac because they're black?

Is that what you're saying? So you're racist and despicable? Wait a minute. You go all the way back to JFK. Before your time. JFK's not before your time, but Biggie is. How dare you? You fucked up right there.

You fucked up. People don't bring up Biggie. You are hanging out with white people. You're hanging out with white people in Venice that speak with English accents and go to art galleries. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Conspiracy theories. They're generally white. Well, that's one of the things you said on a show.

What do you get? What do you find when you're looking for Sasquatch? I'll tell you what we don't find. Black people. There's no black people, man. There's not one. Me and Duncan formed a group while we were out squatching called Unfuckable White Dudes. And it was me and him and those two dudes.

And we were out there steady squatching. That was our band. Steady squatching. UFD, Unfuckable white dudes. What about UFOs? That's actually another thing you can't really debunk because a lot of them are just unidentified flying objects. They're like lights

in the sky and you don't know what they actually are. Do we have any pictures that are really convincing? All of them. No, we don't. Brian, bullshit. Listen, this guy's a shill. Look at that drawing. Look at this statue that I have. He's a shill. Look at that drawing. Okay, look at this statue that I have of an alien. That's a real alien.

Tell me if you look at that, in your heart, in your soul, you know that that could be a real alien. I think that might be a real alien. It's an archetype. The thing is, there's almost less UFO pictures coming out now than there were back in the late 50s and 60s. People are scared to speak their mind because of ridicule. Okay? Because people like him, what they've done is they've made it seem like you're a silly person if you send in your photos

of UFOs. You're turning on Mick. Well, this show needs some balance. Oh, you're trying to create controversy and conflict. Basically, what I'm telling you, Brian Callen, is that aliens are real. Roswell happened. Stop trying to deny it. I just need some proof, sir. There's no

proof necessary. All you need to know is that the sky is huge That's true By the way that is something I never really think about Just how vast the universe is Oh someone's high I never really think about how big the universe is I don't know what you're talking about dude Why do they always look like that?

Do you know the story? That comes from the 50s, doesn't it? Duncan Trestle told me the story. He said that when you are being born, okay, people assume that when you're being born, you have no memory of your childhood. But why would we assume that? Just because you don't have a context to put that memory into?

Just because one of the most traumatic moments of that young brain's life will be getting yanked out of its warm, incredible environment of love with its mommy and then taken into some bright clinical place where a man is hovering over you with complete control. You can't move your body. You're being lifted up and carried to this tray and dropped down. You're looking down at this guy who's got this white mask on, these black eyes, and the archetype of this man's face when your eyeballs have never even adjusted to being

able to see reality. You're not popping out of a vagina filled with liquids and blood and then seeing crystal clear, right? My eyes are blurry when I get out of the fucking shower, right? When you get out of the pool, if you've been swimming in a public pool, your eyes turn red. Do you imagine what your eyes must look like being in gallons of vagina fluid

for nine months? You're basically blind. They're closed. Yeah, but they open up. They're in the water. There's a lot of shit going on. You don't know. You don't know if they're open or not. You don't know, man. They get shot out, blood, and then the pressure of that pussy squeezing on your head. All that's going to fuck with your vision. Please don't say pussy.

It's a pussy if you're going to have sex with it. And if you didn't have sex with it, she wouldn't have a baby. If you're coming out of it, it's a vagina. Once you have sex with it, it's a pussy. It's not bad that it's a pussy. It's a pussy. It's a pussy. It's not bad.

If it's your daughter, it's a vagina. But if it's your wife, even after she's had a baby, it's a pussy. The baby came out of the pussy. The baby's staring at this alien. And that image is somehow shocked. The image, the memory of the clinical experience. And it really does kind of make sense that these ideas that people have of this hypnotic regression, bringing up this alien abduction experience that they completely have squashed.

Well, what would be a traumatic moment that you really did squash? How about your birth? Your fucking birth. Getting shot into the light. This impossible light that you never could have imagined in the nine months you've been alive and the X amount of time you've actually been thinking about things. You'd think there'd be a lot more aliens wearing masks if that was the case.

I don't think there's a real clear image that you're able to see. I think that's why the eyes are dark and the rest of the features are sort of non-existent. Or maybe it's just somebody's imagination. But that's just an artist's image. The actual, the reoccurring image is actually the eyes. The variation in the face. So when other people describe it being abducted by aliens, they all describe kind of a similar.

It's a very similar archetype. And the question is, is that archetype because of culture? Because like, you know, like people see Bigfoot and the idea is that that's what they're looking for. It's because that's what everybody told them to go look for. Like flying saucers. That's one where the guy who first reported flying saucers was a fighter pilot. And he reported these things skipping across the sky and said that there were like saucers on a lake, like someone skipping a saucer. But that, he didn't mean even saucer-shaped.

They were actually a boomerang shape, what he was saying that he saw. Sounds like he fell asleep. But everybody after that started seeing saucers. They started seeing actual discs. Why? Because that had been the image that had been put in their heads. I was going to say, that's interesting. You know, he may have been totally sleep deprived and completely hallucinating.

Or on meth. Or whatever. They were giving pilots meth. Yeah, man. They were giving pilots meth for a long time. We went over on the show recently how much meth was involved in the kamikaze pilots, how much meth was involved in the kamikaze pilots, how much meth was involved in the Nazis. Keeping them awake.

And it was people didn't even know it was bad for you then. Like there was people that doctors were prescribing meth. But doctors were taking methamphetamine in medical school. Yes. So it's not outside the realm of possibility. This guy really did see discs flying through the sky. It's also not outside the realm of ability realm of possibility This guy was tripping his fucking balls off on some government shit. No sleep the earliest version of ProVigil

They had what they're pumping into this fucking I hear ProVigil really works. It is Explain to me. Do you know it's not it's not a it's not a central nervous Stimulant actually it's something else it keeps it. a, it's not a central nervous, uh, stimulant actually. It's something else. It keeps it. I can't explain it because I've heard it like, as I am not an architect, I'm also not a doctor and I would give you a fucked up explanation of what it is. But, um, there's some people that swear by it. Yeah.

Some weirdos, you know, I had a doctor who was a sleep specialist. I sat next to him by coincidence at dinner and he said it to, he was explaining how it worked, but he said, it's not a stimulant the way caffeine would be a stimulant. It just keeps you awake for 14 hours, and you can function highly on it. What's really interesting is it was first created as a performance-enhancing drug, mental performance-enhancing drug. But they couldn't market it that way because the government's like, no, you can't have a drug that just makes your brain work better. Like you have to have a reason. You have to – there has to be an ailment that you're treating.

And so they said, okay, narcolepsy. Oh, wow. And so then they started prescribing it for narcolepsy or off-brand or – how do they say? What is it? Off-label? Off-label. Off-label use. So will Provigil kind of center your mind?

Well, I'll tell – let Brian describe it because I gave one to Brian when he was about to fucking fall asleep once. He had two hours sleep, and he was driving to San Diego. He's like, dude, I don't know how I'm going to do it. I go, take this. And I don't, I am very judicious with them. I only take them when I need, when I haven't had sleep, when I need energy for a long, sustained period of time. Like, occasionally, if I'm feeling

tired, I'll take a half of one before a UFC. And it doesn't give you any speediness to it. It's not like drinking Red Bull. It's not like anything. It just gives you, like, less dips in your energy. It just turns you on. Like, that's not even, like, tiredness or just, like,

where I just need to lay down for a bit or just, like, meh. It's all gone. But as Tim Ferriss said, he doesn't believe in a biological free lunch. And it seems to have, to have a really positive benefit, which also makes me think, well, okay, is there anything bad going on here because of this? It just seems like a pretty powerful effect. You still need sleep. Well, yeah, absolutely.

That's very important. But also, I don't take it very often, and I only take a half of one. I never go all in. I don't need it. I just need a little bit. Just a little bit is good. I don't need it. I just need like a little bit, just a little bit is good. I don't want to feel like a, ooh, like an effect. But if you take a full one, you'll feel like a, ooh, like a little bit of a rush.

And I know that it's a big rumor amongst Silicon Valley startups that like all these guys are just provigiled out of their mind. And they have massive energy to complete projects. They're working 16 hours a day. And they're all just fucking popping provigil and there's no bodies, you know, and people are really worried about so much so that Tim Ferriss kept it from his book. I go, why'd you leave it out of your book? He goes, I don't want people just chewing on it like candy. I was like, wow, it's so effective that you were worried about your own responsibility,

your personal responsibility for introducing it to people. Tim Ferriss is a good guy. Yeah. Well, I have heard of the same with disastrous side effects for Adderall. And I have actually seen people that I've been friends with that have had problems with Adderall. Adderall is no joke. Adderall is awful.

I mean, if you split it down to like little teeny pieces, it might be okay. But like you take one Adderall pill, you feel like you're on cocaine. Like I feel like I get drips, like I'm having flashbacks from doing coke back in the day. Because it's that same feeling. It's the exact same feeling. Your brain is tuning into that feeling. Wow.

Yeah, that Adderall thing, though, is a real issue with folks. Okay, here's a conspiracy. How about that? What do you think about, do you think that the government conspires with pharmaceutical companies to prescribe certain amounts of drugs so they can profit off of it? I think there's certainly a big problem with the regulation of drugs. There's this big revolving door of people in government, in the regulatory agencies,

who basically worked in industry, and then they go work in the government, and then there's the same people passing laws and regulations for drugs. Like the SEC with the financial industry. Yeah. So they're in bed together. That's the real conspiracy. The EPA and Monsanto. Did you ever see the

there's a show on I want to say it's current but no it's not. It's Vanguard, the Oxycontin Express. Have you ever seen that special? It's available online. You can see it online. And we've had the folks in that created it. I forget what network they were on. I'm sorry.

Current? Was it Current? Yeah. And they showed the OxyContin problem in Florida and how easy it is to get pills and how crazy it is. They didn't have a database. You can go from one doctor to another and just keep getting prescriptions. They have these pain management centers set up everywhere where you go.

Literally, they go, oh, my back hurts. Doctor, write some shit down. In the same building, they have a pharmacy that only sells pain pills. And these people are just cranked to the gills on Oxycontins all day. Well, there's no question that I think corporations will sometimes, if they want to get something passed, I, the food industry will stack the deck with its scientists that they put on their payroll to suggest, for example, that the foods that they're producing, which are simple sugars, whether it's Kraft or something, and they want to sell soda,

they want to sell candy bars in school, well, they'll stack the deck and have scientists say 25% of your diet as a child can be simple sugars. We don't find anything unhealthy about that. They've been very active about that. If you read the China study, Colin Campbell's book, who's a scientist. I mean, he's a vegan and stuff. I don't agree with that.

I like how you said that. Yeah, but he's an incredible scientist. The value of that book for me was just reading about how they stack the deck, how they're very influential on the kinds of that book for me was just reading about how they stack the deck, how they're very influential on the kinds of scientists that set standards. This is kind of like a real conspiracy, but it doesn't have to be like a bunch of guys in a smoky room deciding to do these things. It's just kind of a bunch of increments. They push things in one direction or the other.

And it's based on, you know, you can look at it, the influence, very clearly. It's like, where's the money coming from? Yeah, it's just money. I called you after I read the book, and I remember I just had to talk to somebody. I go, I remember I called you and I said, I don't know how people can make a living this way. I could never pay my mortgage behaving that way. Well, you were talking to me about the, you called me up and you were telling me about the richest county, the county in Virginia. It's all lobbyists. Yeah, it's all lobbyists and lawyers. I mean, Washington has become an economy of influence.

It's so crazy. I mean, by the way, I'm sorry to use that expression, but that's my trademark. Hey, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't trademark things. No, no. You'll get in trouble. But when you work on Capitol Hill now and you're a congressman and you're making $140,000 a year or whatever it is, you're a congressman and you're making 140 grand a year or whatever it is. It is the, that is the farm league for K street where all the lobbying firms are, where you now you use your influence after being in government for six or eight years.

You now move to a lobbying firm just down the way on K street. And now you're making five, six, $700,000 a year to use the influence and the contacts that you have made as a congressman to influence government for the Firm you're working for yeah I think that's the biggest problem in America right now because I don't think you can really address any of the other problems until you Take care of that. Well, I have a friend who's actually working on a Possible option and the option Instead of trying to attack And the option, instead of trying to attack campaign finance in its current form, offer another option.

And that other option being the internet. And that the internet, you could have people that were funded by crowdsource, Kickstarter style, and have people that are promoting certain ideas funded. And doing it that way is a massive resource of human beings. We're talking about 300 million human beings, which you really will have access to for the first time, as opposed to if you're trying to do it like in any other form. Like when Ross Perot came around, they decided to tighten the game up completely because he fucked up everything. That's the reason why Clinton became president in the first place, because Ross Perot came around and threw a giant monkey wrench in the whole Republican side of things. And they said, we can't let that happen again.

So the Commission for Presidential Debates, a privately funded institution, decided to change their standards of how many people have to like you before you're allowed to be in the debate. You have to have a giant percentage of the popular vote to be able to get into the debate. Well, that's the rub. You can't get it until you can get into the debate. So you can't the rub. You can't get it until you can get into the debate. So you can't get it, and you can't get it. So go fuck yourself. Well, this idea would be another option.

The people that are hamstringed because they don't have enough money, if someone was dedicating their time to creating a real network of politicians who are sourced entirely by the public and accountable for all the different things that they're saying that they're going to represent once they get in there.

The thing I worry about that, the thing I have a problem, what worries me is that you're still then having congressmen spending 40, 50% of their time raising funds. And I would like the government to set a, or someone to set a limit and dole out money to all candidates equally. Oh, that's horseshit. They're not worth equal. That is a problem. Come on, man. Think of all the crackheads like Rick Santorum that ran for president.

Do you think that motherfucker deserves equal money? All these crazy people that want to stop gay marriage and crazy people that think that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. They get the money too. You get those people getting more money because corporations will side with people who have their interests at heart. And it might be Rick Santorum. Maybe and maybe I'm hoping that the general public will catch up to the idea that that's a good idea. Yeah, you're right.

But using the internet as a source like that is, to me, another option outside of the corporations that hasn't been addressed yet. We've got to change it, though. I think that is the – for me, that is the biggest problem. And that's one of the things that I – when people ask me, like, what are the real problems, I start out with campaign finance reform. Yes. That's huge. And then when you have all this crazy spying going on but no real – I mean, what's the real danger? What's really going on, but no real, I mean, where, what's the real danger? What's really going on? Where's the, the, the massive amount of terrorism that we're experiencing in our country

on a regular basis that we need to take over people's, people's privacy, that we need to be able to fish through everyone's email and get metadata on every phone call you make. Where's the fucking evidence that there's any need for all this stuff? I say there's very little. And I say, it's one of those things. It's a natural progression. When a girl blows you, you want to stick it in her ass. It's just what happens. You want to see if you could do that too. When a girl's willing to have sex with you, will she blow you? When a girl jerks you off, can we now have sex? There's a normal thing. You steal $5 at work. Can I steal 20? You figure out a way to do things more, to get things more. And that applies to everything that human beings do.

The history of government is that, to gain more and more control. And if they've got the power to look into people's emails, they're like, well, let's just get everyone's email that they ever do, ever. That way we can always have them on any... And it's against... Everyone wants to say that, well, the Constitution should be a living document, it should change with the times. You know, we have nuclear bombs now.

There's a lot of real issues that people need to deal with that they didn't have to deal with when the Constitution was written. But, yes, but the Constitution, what's interesting about it is that it's a skeleton form of a government that people were trying to construct after the governance that they had seen had failed miserably. Because they were monarchies, they were oligarchies, they were dictatorships. So it was psychologically based as well. It understood the nature of man. That's right. And those fail-safes that were put in place, and when they were establishing the early

government, when they were trying to separate church and state, what they were trying to do was make it so that you couldn't have cults of people with influence that just controlled vast parts of the world. Exactly. And it eventually happened, just like they thought it was going to. So the wisdom of the Constitution just in that form should be respected, even if you don't want to limit it to what was written in the Constitution, because now we have wireless internet and all this other crazy shit,

you still have to think they saw corruption coming. They were right. Ben Franklin said, the legend goes, as he came out after they formulated the Constitution, the woman said, what have you done? And he said, we've created a republic, madam, if you can keep it. Yeah, if you can keep it. It was always precarious.

When you write about conspiracy theories or break down conspiracy theories, do you feel an obligation to also expose people to shit that actually is legitimate, that does need concern? I do to a small extent, but there's so many other people doing that out there

that I can just kind of point them to other sites like campaign finance reform. There's loads of things out there that I can just kind of point them to other sites like Campaign Finance Reform. There's loads of things out there. So I don't really feel the need. I think because I'm doing a very good job at debunking stuff, that's where I best focus my efforts. Totally agree. I think you're doing a great job. But I also feel like you take an exorbitant amount of negative energy.

I've seen these debates that you get online with these people just on Twitter. When you jumped on Twitter, I watched you for days. I was coming in here to the office while we were filming the show, and I was like, he is still going at it with these motherfuckers. And you never lost your patience. All these people were calling you a government shill. They were asking you how much you get paid by the government. And he just kept throwing up like, you know, if someone asked a question, he would give a scientific

explanation, throw up a link, and then they would just be like, ah, fuck. The unflappable Brit. The unflappable British gentleman. And that's something people actually used against me. They said I'm too unflappable. Yes. I must be a government agent because I'm not saying fuck you to everybody. You can't win.

You can't win. It's really important that we look at the truth, the real truth, not the truth that you want to see, but the actual real truth. And there's a lot of complexities to this life, and there's complexities to the mind that we perceive this very life with, and that's a real issue that has to be managed. Like the Constitution was trying to manage the idea of the psychological nature of man in the form of making a government. You have to kind of manage your own mind in terms of how certain situations can be defended that don't necessarily make sense.

You and I talk about this all the time. I mean, a lot of times you've got to face up to when you're lying. Yes, or lying even to yourself. That's what I mean. You've got to face up to kind of like, oh, man, I've been kind of telling myself a story here. And actually, my good friend over here has just told me that I got to take a look at that. That's what a real friend does, right? Where you go, oh, I got to actually reassess some stuff.

You know, I love Michael Shermer's quote. If you've read him, I'm doing myself a great injustice by bringing up Michael Shermer right now because I'll be a rape apologist. Because I don't know if you know about this. He was accused of doing something improper, meaning getting a girl drunk and having sex with her. Crazy. People are calling that, a lot of people are calling that rape now.

Gee, never done that. I don't know if that happened. I don't know what happened. Getting her drunk? My point is, I just needed to address that just to put it out there. But the quote that he has is that a lot of people that are very smart believe dumb things because they can explain them and they can argue them very well. And so they think they're doing well and winning in the argument.

So that maybe their point makes sense. But it really becomes like a sort of circular ego argument. It sounds good. They've got a good sounding argument. You talk to Michael Murphy, and he's very eloquent. He used to be. He's a bit less eloquent now. But he's very convincing. He's a very personable person. And you can easily get sucked into things like that. And then you start repeating the same arguments yourself. And you're convincing yourself because if you're an eloquent

person, you're eloquent to yourself. Well, it's also in being a smart person. And you're convincing yourself because if you're an eloquent person, you're eloquent to yourself. Well, it's also in being a smart person and most of us are at least somewhat competitive. We want to be right and it's what you were talking about earlier about certain skeptics being aggressive and they use skepticism as a game, tallying up a social score. Yeah, it becomes a debate in the old-fashioned sense of a debate where it's like one person has to argue this, the other person argues the opposite thing, and then they fight it out, and the best debater wins.

It becomes about debating rather than about finding what is true and what is not true. Yeah, that is a real problem with being able to put it all aside and actually look at what the fuck is really going on. A lot of debunkers, they end up saying things that are wrong because they're too hasty to come up with an explanation for things.

So they'll end up saying, oh, that's not chemtrail, that's smoke from the planes. Just because that's the first thing that comes into their head. Because they're debunkers and they think that if they can think of something, they've got that thing where they think they are intelligent and they are somewhat intelligent, but people fool themselves as to how intelligent they actually are. So even debunkers can get caught in a web of their own deceit. It's very annoying from my perspective as well

because I get people coming onto my site and then they try to debunk things, but they say things that are wrong, scientifically wrong, and then you have to end up correcting the debunkers as well. Oh, how dare they. It never ends. A lot of cunty debunkers.

Can we agree? There are a lot of cunty debunkers. There's quite a few, you know? Sure. It's easy to be. It's easy to be when you're also frustrated with your own vision of the world, and then when someone comes along

saying they have fucking documented proof the Loch Ness Monster is real, and you're like, the fuck you do, shithead. You don't. It's hard. It's hard to say, sir, what is this proof?

Where have you got this proof stored? May I measure it? Yeah, the evidence you were asking for in the UFO thing last night, a couple of days ago. They don't have evidence. They have like eye witness testimony. They have like crappy photos.

There's no empirical evidence. There's none of that sort of like let's see some measurable evidence. Well, let me tell you this. After chemtrails, which was the number one most hate I got from anything I've ever done online. Yeah. So many people thought it was a shill. And number two is aliens.

And the idea that I could debunk this one place, and it wasn't even debunked, this one place. This guy was just telling me some crazy shit, and I didn't buy it. It's really simple. When you're talking to me about bulletproof wolves and mist, if I don't buy it, it doesn't mean I'm an asshole. It means I'm trying to be real about this.

Right. I think it's much more likely that there's intelligent life in the universe than it is that there isn't. I think it's much more likely. But I also think there's a lot of shit that people are seeing. Like we were talking about these orbs

that people keep seeing in this area around this ranch, this Bigelow Ranch, which is in Utah, northern Utah. Well, it's potentially ball lightning. Ball lightning is a very real phenomenon that's been measured, and it's really weird. It can stay around for several seconds sometimes, and people see it darting around doing crazy shit.

And if you didn't expect to see that, and all of a sudden you did see it, and you're trying to put it into context, and you're looking at something that's so fantastic but it's really just a phenomenon of nature you could convince yourself that you're looking at something that is being controlled by an alien life force and my problem is really simple i know people are full of shit so when i meet one that might be full of shit i go well he might be full of shit, I go, well, he might be full of shit. It's really that simple. It's not like lying is something that doesn't exist. It's not like a lot of people don't lie.

No, the evidence is that a lot of people do just make up stories. And when someone is, you know, just like the guy who's looking at the fucking people that he's about to shoot and sees a twitchy motherfucker that knows he's hopped up on adrenaline. You also, as a person, especially a person who's brutally honest with yourself, recognize very easy when someone has no emotional connection to the words that are coming out of their mouth. This is not a real incident that they're reciting. This is not a real thing that took place. This is a person that's telling me a stupid story that sucks, and it's insulting.

It's insulting to me that you think I'm so fucking dumb that this is the weak game you're playing on me. Just like some asshole coming up to the most beautiful woman in the world and trying to convince her that he's a prince. That shit is insulting. I've done it and gotten laid. What do you got to do?

My point is, it's insulting. And it's a problem with the whole community of quote-unquote believers. The problem is not that there's no way there's UFOs. It's impossible. The problem is most people tell shitty fucking stories that don't have any evidence behind them. They don't have anything. And it's interesting when they tell you these stories.

And if it is real, wow. Amazing that the aliens came and took you. And they look just like every other alien from Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters a Third Time on. And they took you in space. This is very common among people who take religion at literal value. When you see people who interpret the Bible literally and stuff like that. Sort of, but no. Because these people are talking about personal experiences.

They're having personal experiences. Well, faith is that way too when they have conversions or I'm reborn and I saw Jesus. You hear a lot of that. Right, but you hear much more of people being abducted by aliens than you do of people having religious experiences. And I think that goes right back to the whole flying saucer thing. I think people are in their head thinking that they're going to be abducted by aliens. And so when they're sleeping,

which is when all these fucking things take place, they all take place in the middle of the night. And they'll tell you, no, a lot of abductions take place during the day. You know what else happens during the day sometimes? Naps! Yeah, these people conk out at work and they think they lost time because you're fucking drooling on your shirt, stupid.

You're not in a spaceship. You're not special. You're in a fucking cubicle. And you're not the person that the people from Alpha Centauri have talked to and convinced that you're going to be able to have the solution for saving the human race out of your fucking cubicle. You're nodding off every day. Right. It's that reaction you get when you disbelieve somebody or you're just skeptical about them? Is that they think that you're judging them? Yes.

But really, you're just being somewhat scientific about it. No, that's you. I'm judging them. We're doing very different things, you and I. They claim to be very open-minded, but really they're pretty much the opposite of open-minded because they will only believe their particular interpretation of results. And they think because their interpretation is different from everybody else's, that means that they are being open-minded. But it doesn't. It just means they're being very, very narrow-minded outside.

And incredibly butthurt, if you call them on it. God damn it. No one's more butthurt than conspiracy theorists if you disagree with them. It gets emotional so goddamn fast. Out of all the things that I've disagreed with with people whether it was controversial issues like males changing transgender to female getting to fighting nothing got people more pissed off than the chemtrail thing yeah that's amazing to me amazing amazing in that sense it kind of feels as though they're they're less concerned about chemtrails are just an excuse to garner around an issue that makes them feel like there's a fight to be had. It's real simple.

They're lazy. They're only taking a few steps. They're taking a few steps and looking at things and then they're defending that position. They get into that position and then they rock that position hard. They're really nutty, aggressive people that are going after people online.

You fuck a government shoe. You just go and look at what the fuck you're talking about. It doesn't mean the government didn't organize Northwoods. The government was, the Joint Chiefs of Staff signed a document saying they were going to fucking bomb Guantanamo Bay. They were going to arm human friendlies and attack Guantanamo Bay. That's real. Didn't happen. But

people do try to do shit. And when you pretend that something's happening that's not happening, you cheapen everything where there's really something going on. Or the burden of proof is on you to prove what you're saying. You can't just come out and say a bunch of stuff and not have anything I can work off. Yeah, but you're talking logical. Yeah.

The theorists, they also go into the things to a lot of breadth but not depth. So once you debunk something, they don't actually try to come back on that thing. They just move on to the next thing. So you've got this long, long list of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pieces of evidences. But anyone you can go into any depth, you could actually prove absolutely that it's

not true. But as soon as you start to get in there, they will just drop it and they'll move on to the next thing. Yeah, it becomes a weird thing in your head. That's actually really interesting, though. This one guy who thinks that UV radiation is really, really high at the Yeah, it becomes a weird thing in your head. That's actually really interesting, though. You want it to be real. There's one guy who thinks that UV radiation is really, really high at the moment,

and he has these readings that he did with these crappy cheap meters that he had. This is the chemtrail, dude, that you debated. There's a 70-minute transcription of a 70-minute debate. It's really fascinating. You read the whole thing? Yes. Yeah, I read it all. I'm retarded. I love you for it all. Yeah. So he basically- I'm retarded.

I love you for it. I got problems. He thinks that there's so much radiation coming down that it's actually, the levels he is measuring is more than there actually is in space. Well, it was interesting. I need to watch the actual video because I could picture it taking place. Like when you would call him on things and he had literally no response to like when you would call him on things and he had literally no response to the differences that you guys had between what was actually happening with the sky and what was actually been proven. He's got no evidence. He's just saying these claims.

He went from one thing to the next. He'll say, well, what about the gaps in contrails? And I explain what that is. Oh, what about these things coming off the back of KC-10s? And I would explain what that is. When you were talking about the UV radiation, that was when things got really weird. It was like, you were saying, like, where is the results? Like, where are the medical results of this changing, this dangerous change in the environment? Yeah, everybody would be dead if the levels were what you said.

And it's like, there were actually, like, 20 times normal UVB, which is what causes, like, skin cancer and sunburn. I was just reading it. It was just like, I could picture the pausing and the panic in the room. It was so crazy. He deserves to be caught called that. Of course. But he was very eloquent and very well spoken when he debated it. Like Shermer says. He was extremely confident in his viewpoint, but it was this very narrow viewpoint and he would just stick to his point and he would keep

going off on this long litanies where he would repeat his like 12 talking points. Yeah, it's really that's actually scary that's almost a sociopath somebody doesn't is not even emotional about it but rather just kind of like he was emotional though he was he was very passionate no it's not that brian it's just it's complete conviction yeah in their stupid idea it's confirmation bias to its extreme and complete conviction and in an idea that doesn't make any sense. And the rejection of people like me. Not just a rejection of you, but a rejection of contradictory evidence, period. Yeah, because I'm the only person who's actually giving them that contradictory evidence.

Right. And he's utterly convinced that I'm a paid shill. He's done this long article on this. Are you sure you're not a paid shill? Do you get checks every week and go, where'd that come from? My wife complains about me spending money on my web hosting because it's coming out of our budget. So you used to run computer game companies?

Yeah, Neversoft. They did the Tony Hawk video games. And you sold that, and then you decided once you sold that that you were just going to go into hibernation and debunk shit? Yeah, we sold it. I stayed there for a few years, and then I just thought I'd go off and do other things and ended up doing debunking.

I didn't leave to go debunking. That's just what I ended up doing. Wait, you used to own Neversoft? That is amazing. Tony Hawk, we grew up with Tony Hawk and everything like that. It was one of my favorite companies. See what this distraction that you created created him. It's cool. I would talk to you about

Neversoft all day. So you owned that company and sold it? I owned a third of it. That's awesome. So when you decided to kick back and not work anymore after you sold it, how did you get started in this whole debunking thing? Was it start with one issue? Yeah.

It started with, on Wikipedia I was doing crap about biblical scientific foreknowledge. And that was just kind of me doing my naive debunker guy where I saw something that was wrong, so I started typing a bunch of stuff. Oh, that's wrong, and I'm going issue to issue, like point to point and just slapping them down. And then I moved on to Morgellons, which you did.

Yeah, we covered much more Morgellons in the show than we got the chance to put in because of the limitations that it was connected with the whole bio-apocalypse thing. Most likely, there's two things. Most likely, some people, they have an issue where they're cutting their skin open and sticking things in there. There are people that have that. Stigmata. But there's also a bunch of people that have Lyme disease, and they think this hyper-characterization might be occurring. people that have Lyme disease and they think this hyperkeratinization might be occurring.

Lyme disease apparently, when a tick bites you, and this is the most recent thing from the Morgellons conference that I went to in Austin of this year. So what they call their studies, their science, I don't know who's right or who's wrong. Is this stigmatized? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Morgellons is a disease where they get these fibers that are growing out of their skin. What the doctors that have it claim is that it's Lyme disease, and they all test positive for Lyme disease apparently, and hyperkeratinization, which is some sort of a side effect

of something that comes along with the Lyme disease. And the idea is that the tick is not just carrying one pathogen. It's probably carrying several, and some of them even undiagnosed. So it piggybacks along with Lyme disease. This is what the doctors that have it believe. Well, yeah, but those are the same guys that basically kind of invented it in the first place. That one guy that you talked to, the kind of twitchy guy. Yes. He invented it?

No, he didn't invent it, but he was part of the Morgan Islands Research Foundation, which doesn't exist anymore, which is an original group of people who kind of promoted it and got it into the into the media uh back about you know six or seven years ago and got the cdc to investigate it when really there isn't very much evidence to say that it is a distinct disease at all so that was that was kind of what i was debunking was the people saying there was evidence that there's something going on when really there wasn't so these doctors that are saying that this is hypercare damn we're running out of time how much much time do we have? About four minutes.

Damn it. We could go on about this forever. I really need to talk to you about this because this is quite fascinating because they were having me convinced

that it's something to do with Lyme disease. Yeah, yeah, that's the big theory. But one of the doctors... What are they getting? These sores all over their body then.

What do you think it is? It's neurotic excoriations is technically called. Basically, they're scratching themselves. But how do they do it in spots on their back they can't even reach? They can. There's photos of people who have neurotic excoriations is technical term. Basically, they're scratching themselves. But how do they do it in spots on their back they can't even reach?

They can. There's photos of people who have neurotic excoriations on their back, and they match exactly the patterns of the people who have. What about the people that show these extra hairs that are coming out? They've taken photographs of these five and six clumps of hair that are popping out of these areas, what they're calling hyperkeratization. You think that's bullshit, too? No, it's probably just a normal dermatological condition.

Like people just, they get a follicle. But they're saying that that's occurring in a lot of their little sores. Yeah, no, that's just, a lot of that is just fibers getting caught in the sores. Listen, we're going to have to do this again sometime. God damn it. We have too much shit to talk about.

We can keep going on. I'll talk to you about just borgelans for the next 20 minutes. And people are like, yay! People on their treadmills right now going, yay, I was hoping you were going to talk about festering fucking diseases of the skin for the next 20 minutes. I got my Kung Fu class next. Listen, man, it's been very interesting.

Thank you very much. Let's do it again. Thank you. For sure. Come back and we'll find some more shit to debunk. And hopefully I can get somebody who believes in chemtrails, that believes the government is spraying, there is evidence to come here and do it I tried but they all passed

or the one that I tried that I reached out to passed there it is ladies and gentlemen alright folks we'll be back later this week most likely tomorrow I'm working on my schedule thanks to squarespace.com go to squarespace.com use the code word Joe and the number 9 all one word Joe and the number 9

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