The Joe Rogan Experience - #439 - Remi Warren, Dan Doty

Episode Date: January 13, 2014

Remi Warren is a hunter, adventurer, and videographer. He can be seen hunting all over the world on "Solo Hunter" on the Outdoor Channel.  Dan Doty is a writer, producer, and cameraman for MeatEater TV. http://www.youtube.com/user/MeatEaterTV

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! So, because of two, these two men that are here today, one of them is responsible for turning me into a hunting nut. Dan Doty was a big part of that, the experience of going to Montana. And Remy Warren, if you've uh ever watched any of the shows uh on uh is it the sportsman's channel yeah well the the meat eaters on the

sportsman's i've done some stuff with steve and then uh solo hunters is on outdoor it's on outdoor channel there's three channels on uh on direct tv that are pretty much all hunting and fishing what's the third one i don't know it's like pursuit yeah and it's all every time i tune in if i'm looking for like my dressing room this weekend i was in phoenix doing stand-up and we just had hunting shows on a dressing room all the time i'm fucking bananas i'm not really i got a real problem watch them all the time oh dude i'm sick you don't you don't really care what it is you watch whatever um they're terrible a lot of them are awful i was telling you guys before that there was one i was watching where a kid was getting interviewed

and he had his hand up to block the sun as their camera's interviewing him and he's like, well, you know, we're going to go out today and hopefully we'll be successful. Do you know there's a fucking sun glaring in this kid's face? Can't you move this camera? Can't you move the couch? What the fuck are you guys doing?

And it's one of the things that I really did appreciate about your show, Meat Eater, that you produce, is that it's just so much better shot. It's so much more interesting. The narration is articulate. It's fascinating. It's introspective. It's a full picture. It's a great show.

And I was trying to show this to my wife the other day. I'm like, this fucking show is too good to just be tucked away on a hunting channel. Because the hunting channel programs, for the most part, don't attract regular folks. But I really think that show is so well made that it could be on a travel channel or, you know. I agree with you. Discovery. I appreciate that. It's a great fucking show. What did your wife think?

She thinks I'm fucking crazy. She doesn't want to talk to me. She doesn't want to sit in front of the couch watching animals die. Especially yesterday was a rough one because I was watching the lion hunt that I was telling you about. Pigman was shooting lions with a bow and arrow. And these lions are just laying there sleeping. And he's creeping up on them and pumps an arrow into their heart. And she's like, I got to go.

I can't watch this. Yes. So just shows like that. The normal guy going, oh, I'm going to check this out. And then they turn on one of those shows. They're like, what the hell is going on here? But then comes along a guy like Dan Doty who just makes some awesome stuff that could be anywhere. And, you know what I mean?

You can find these really good shows on there as well that are full of adventure and just being out there being a man. There's no way I can say to you, I can't take credit for that shit. There's no way. Well, you're not taking't take credit for that shit. There's no way. Well, you're not taking credit for it, but you are a part of it. Sure, sure. Yeah. But there's a huge, like, very... Crew.

Very creative, very, like, fantastic team that makes that show. Yes. That's a very important thing, and that shows how humble you are that you brought that up. That's a very important aspect of anything that comes out well. There's a team behind it, especially a big-time TV tv show there's a fucking team of people behind the scenes and and we give a shit and steve you know has an incredibly intelligent way to to do what he does and to talk about what he does and we have people who can edit and shoot and run the show and it's just it's it's a big deal and and having uh you know bringing remy out there has been a perfect fit for us, too.

I think I can't watch hunting TV. I can barely watch our show. I love our show. I can barely watch our show, but I could not sit like you and watch hunting TV in general. I just can't do it. I watch it all the time, but I'm obsessed right now with hunting. I mean, hopefully it'll calm down a little bit, but I'm obsessed. It never will, man.

I was, like, born into it, and I'm more obsessed now than I was when I first got into it. How old are you now? I'm 28 now. And you've been hunting your entire life? Yeah, I mean, I don't remember a time where I wasn't hunting, you know? I think, like, I remember a birthday party when I was a kid, you know, and it had to be, like, first grade. And, you know, got some kind of pellet gun or whatever. You know, we set up this little thing in the backyard, just all these balloons and targets.

And I was a kid, when I was in first grade, man, I just sit there, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, all day long. Just shooting and stalking things and just nuts. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Reno, Nevada. Oh, wow. Yeah, you've got to have a gun if you live in Reno. Just for people. Yeah. Just for the people you have to hunt.

Exactly. I mean, Johnny Cash even shot a guy in Reno, right? That you live in Reno. Just for people. Yeah. Just for the people you have to hunt. Exactly. I mean, Johnny Cash even shot a guy in Reno, right? That's right. Just to watch him die. Yeah. I mean, it shows you. Johnny was a nice guy. Yeah.

It shows you what kind of an effect that fucking town has on you. Yeah, I first found out about you because of Meat Eater, the episode where you guys, well, there was a couple of them you went on. One of them where you went to New Zealand, right? Yeah. And then there was another, was that the one where where you went to New Zealand, right? Yeah. And then there was another. Was that the one where you had to travel that crazy fucking river?

Yeah. Steve shot that chamois across the river and they had to cross it. And that was pretty woolly, man. That was one of those badass moments on our show. Fuck yeah, it was. That was hairy. And that wasn't a bullshit fake. That was nothing. That iceberg was coming down, too, and we had that line across there,

and we're all looking at each other like, we may film someone die here today. This is legit. Part of my duties, too, is I'm kind of like the medical guy or officer on the crew, too. I was scared shitless that day. Yeah. And Steve doesn't have a whole lot of fear. Remy doesn't have much fear. And that's fine, but to manage that shit in the field, that was sketchy, man.

That was like, but then the product of that, that sequence of that, that actual action in the moment, to me, that's the most exciting. Well, it's so exciting and they didn't play it up with some stupid cliffhanger at the, like, you know, like, oh Jesus, like, pretend he slips a little bit. There was none of that.

It was just the drama of the real situation of trying to cross a freezing glacial river was none of that. It was just the drama of the real situation of trying to cross a freezing glacial river was more than enough. It was amazing. It was fucking scary. That was an amazing day. Yeah. That was an incredible day.

I mean, you know, like, before, I mean, we kind of had to think about this, you know. I stuck my hand in there and we timed how long before your joints stopped moving, you know. And it was like 60 seconds in that water. You're done done you are done ice water yeah literally just just warm enough to not be ice anymore yeah god damn and then the next day we get up and climbed climbed up uh you know 3 000 feet up mountain almost slipped off a cliff door the integrity of your show the fact that i know when i watched that that all this

is real when we did that thing in montana when we went mule deer hunting, there was no bullshit. There was no faking anything. There's no fake scenarios. There's a show that I really love. It's Alaska, The Last Frontier. But I watched it the other day, and they're fly fishing. And in the middle of fishing, all of a sudden a bear shows up. And the bear is eating some salmon.

And they're like, oh, shit, a bear's here. We've got to get out of here. And then I look at the salmon, and the fucking salmon's been filleted. They've taken the fillets off the salmon and threw the carcasses out for the bear. They baited this fucking bear to come up to the river. And I'm like, god damn it, you ran out of shit that's interesting. I think at first they were just all homesteading and shit, but then now they've got to fake some Hollywood producer dickwad

that's going to get a hold of it and try to fake things. They underestimate the intelligence of the average American viewer, man. It's almost insulting to watch some of this stuff and say, is some guy that's never seen a salmon in his life thinks it's a good idea to do that? And they think that nobody's going to know. Yeah. Okay. It's to be clean fillet on both sides.

I mean, just like so obvious that this thing came out of a cooler and someone chucked it. And cue Bigfoot. Yeah. I think they underestimate part of America's intelligence, and then they perfectly nail a lot of America's intelligence. Because people eat it up. You guys were the first time I found out about Duck Dynasty.

When we were on that trip, you were goofing on it. You and Steve were going back and forth, goofing on Duck Dynasty, like, you done lost your redneck. And I ain't lost my redneck. And I was like, what is this fucking show? And you're like, this is this unbelievably stupid show that's so obviously fake about these guys that have duck calls. Which then became the biggest show on TV.

Dude, it crushed our show. My sci-fi show that I was doing for a while, when I first started doing it, the ratings were excellent. And then we went up against Duck Dynasty and got stomped. I mean, everybody. It was like the highest rated premiere ever in cable TV history for a show like that. My dad loves it. My dad loves Duck show like that. My dad loves it. My dad loves that show, man. Just fucking loves it.

Especially now that the guy done came out and stood up for heterosexuals. You know what? A man can't have his own opinion. Yeah, I think a man's ass is a shitty choice as well. Everybody gets all fucking crazy and riled up. God damn you, taking away their First Amendment rights. How did that resolve? They just fucking backed off.

I mean, I think it's A&E, right? Which is hilarious, right? A&E used to be like old plays, like masterpiece theater and shit, you know? And now it's this fucking fake show about these guys who just grew their beard out only for this show. Have you ever seen those photos of them? No. Oh, it came out since the show that they didn't used to look like that at all.

They were normal guys. They had a regular facial hair. And they grew it all out for the show. So they started on a hunting channel. They started with Duck Commander. Right. I think, right? When I was a kid, man, Duck Commander videos were the shit.

I mean, it was like, you know, Phil Roberts would be out there in his duck blind, and he would say some funny stuff. And, like, I literally learned how to call ducks from Duck Commander videos. Wow. Like, as a kid, you know? So, like, you see, like, you know, and I don't know how many other people have had that experience, but nobody ever taught me how to duck hunt, you know? So I was like, any kind of hunting I could do,

I wanted to do. So I would teach myself whatever. I would get books. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is what they looked like. This is all those guys. No shit.

Yes. That's them. Why do we have one with a duck flying through? Look at that. I mean, it's crazy. They're like golfers. They're like suburban, like gated community golfers. I don't know. I don't know that much about this. I don like golfers. They're like suburban gated community golfers. I don't know that much about their store.

I don't know either, but who cares? They're just selling duck blinds. My point was that you guys don't do any fake shit. And not doing fake shit, it's still a really fucking exciting show. Steve sent me the

one from this upcoming season where he gets charged by the moose did you see that fuck yeah I did I saw five times that's crazy it's awesome he got fucking he took a brisket shot I want to say anything I you know I don't want to give it away because I don't want to spoil the drama when it comes on television what I've said has not spoiled it at all though holy shit it's a great fucking show it's not just a hunting show it's's a great show. And that's what I was trying to convince my wife. I'm like, this is a good fucking show. She's like, okay, crazy. Whatever. Most people do, once they do see it, though, they'll get it. Most people get it. They'll

understand that it's not, I mean, there's so much explicit sort of conversation about what we're doing. It makes sense. It's clear. We were in Wisconsin freezing our dicks off. We were in that deer blind. It was cold as fuck. And Dan Doty steps outside of the blind, and he's taking all these crazy shots. And I was thinking, man, you fucking work hard, dude.

You guys work hard. Everyone, you and Mo and everyone on that show that is a fucking 24 hour day job too because you don't get off at nine o'clock in the night you know boy a long day but at least i go back to my hotel room the fuck you do you're sleeping on the ground or in the basement yeah or in the basement at doug duran's house you know in wisconsin it's cold as fuck up there too shit i always think i go pretty hard you know and, and then these guys come to New Zealand. You got all film crews coming. This is my first dealing with them, you know, and New Zealand's not for pussies, man.

It's like the roughest place on the planet. So they tell me there's film crews coming and I'm like, oh God, well, I don't know how this is going to work. And these dudes are running around the truck. I'm like, I thought I went pretty good. And you know, if I put a GPS on them, they hunt like a bird dog. They're just out in front of you, back, back in, up the mountain, down the truck. I'm like, I thought I went pretty good. If I put a GPS on them, they hunt like a bird dog. They're just out in front of you, back in, up the mountain, down the mountain. You're like, holy cow. When we were in Montana,

we were going through the Badlands and it's high altitude, it's really cold and it's exhausting because it's all mud. You're walking through the mud. These guys are running in front of us. I'm exhausted just from hiking. They're running in front of us to film us being exhausted. You guys probably put out an extra 40%

more calories than anybody because you're also carrying this giant-ass fucking camera up this mountain. The rifle at least is strapped to my shoulders. I'm moving my arms and shit. You guys have to carry this fucking thing as you're going up this mountain. I'm proud of my one-handed abilities. I learned this all from Mo.

His ethic and his way is why the show is what it is and why I learned. I didn't know how to shoot a camera before. Mo, who's the director. You didn't know how to shoot a camera? I'm the director now. He was the director. He's not doing a whole lot with Meat Eater anymore. But, yeah, he taught me every goddamn thing I know.

I didn't know a thing about making TV, about shooting. Yeah, Mo goes to the gym and puts a big pack on filled with shit and gets on a stair climber to prepare for work. Yeah. You have to. He says the best shape he was ever in was from surfing, and then he went out and kicked Steve's ass in the field. He was able to run laps around Steve, but it was surfing that got him to that shape.

That's interesting. I wouldn't feel like surfing would be that exhaustive. Oh, man. Yeah, trying to get – I went surfing one time with my brother in the Dominican Republic. You know, and I'm thinking like, oh, yeah, this can't be that bad. I was so gassed by the time I got out to catch a wave. I was like, screw this. I'm going back.

Just from swimming? Yeah. Yeah, swimming's no joke. You're just trying to paddle out there, man. Actually, that does make sense. I was just thinking of the surfing itself. I didn't take into account the swimming out to surf. But then you use all those muscles,

like every muscle. You're trying to stay balanced. Yeah. Everything. Yeah, I would imagine. I was surprised at how fucking hard the hiking was in Montana. That was the one thing that really shocked me. Because I was in pretty good shape when I went there, too.

Luckily. Because I was thinking as we were going up this hill, I was like like what if i was a fuckhead and i did it didn't work out all the time or i drank a lot or something like this is fucking hardcore shit you did well calendar well you both you both showed up we got lucky we got lucky that we were in shape you know like that you couldn't do that if you wasn't you weren't in shape it's fucking hard you couldn't hunt like randy hunts or like steve you couldn't hunt like we hunt i mean most people don't do that if you weren't in shape. It's fucking hard. You couldn't hunt like Randy hunts or like Steve. You couldn't hunt like we hunt. I mean, most people don't hunt that way, as you've sort of seen now, too. It's not.

Not everybody hunts. I've taken a lot of dudes, and a lot of them puke the first day. Just dying. Just dying. Well, Steve was telling about these big power lifter guys that he took out. They were saying, you guys are in good shape? Yeah, we're in good shape. He goes, 30 minutes in, they're red in the face and throwing up.

Oh, yeah. You know, there's like a huge difference between being hill fit and fit for other things. Because, like, I've been doing this my whole life. I do it, shit, about 200 more days a year. Like, a couple years ago, I was 324 days in the bush, you know? So it's like, it's nothing nothing it's just another day right you know but you you build up this kind of fitness you know for for going uphill i'm good at going uphill flat don't like it's like muscle memory uphill works every time you just do it all the time that's the case everything. With martial arts, the more you get efficiency of movement,

your body understands that movement and can do it over and over again, then you have this massive endurance in it. Exactly. Legs especially. When you think about how ridiculous it is that your legs just carry you around all day and under normal circumstances never get tired. Your legs, you walk to work, you sit down, you walk around the office, there's no problem. Think about if you had to carry 120 pounds with your arms.

It's ridiculous. Just carrying it with your arms. Forget about moving constantly and shifting weight. Your legs could do some pretty amazing things, which is why kickboxing is such a great way to fight because your legs can do shit that your upper body could just never do. The amount of force that you can generate. What do you think the ratio is of force from your leg to your arm

it's ridiculous is it it's off the charts yeah it's it's several times 20 maybe if you it spends on what kind of kick but like a spinning back kick have you ever seen someone who really knows how to kick a bag kick a bag with like a turning side kick or spinning back it goes flying i have 150 pound bag and it launches through the air i can't do that with a turning side kick or spinning back kick. It goes flying. I have a 150-pound bag, and it launches through the air. I can't do that with a punch. If you kick somebody like that, it's like hitting them with a car. They just go flying. You could just do shit with your legs you could never do with your arms.

Think about it. All your weight's in that foot that's spinning, too. When you're punching, both feet are planted. You're using momentum. When you're spinning around, you throw every bit of weight into that foot. It's deadly. It's also the size of your feet. It's so much bigger than the size of your hand.

The bigger your hands are, the harder you can punch. And the big, your foot's way bigger than your fucking hand. It's heavier bone. Think about how much you can hit with your heel where it never bothers your heel at all. You could run on concrete with your heel and literally get away with it. You couldn't punch concrete once, you know? So the amount of force that you could generate with your, your legs and literally get away with it. You couldn't punch concrete once. So the amount of force that you could generate with your legs and your feet, it's crazy. It's just a little more difficult to do because you're balancing on one leg.

It's a little slower because the bones are heavier. But, god damn, when it lands, it's ridiculous. The amount of head kicks that land in the UFC and wound up being knockouts, it's pretty fucking high. You kick somebody in the head, it's usually not good. But it was just still very surprising to me, the endurance that you need to just walk up hills. You need some serious endurance. And Dan was telling me that you did some crazy VO Max test and wound up like an elite endurance athlete.

Yeah. So we did this for actually this new show, we'll probably end up talking about here. Um, we did this VO two max test, which for people that don't know what that is, it measures your endurance capability. So it's, uh, it's essentially where, at what point your body goes anaerobic, how much oxygen you take in and then carbon dioxide out. And then what happens is your body, your muscles work on oxygen. So once your muscles can't take in any more oxygen, your body goes anaerobic, your endurance is over, you know? You get gassed.

You get gassed. You just hit a wall. You're done. You hit a wall. So we did this VO2 max test, right? And essentially, coming back, I mean, the average, what's an average guy, like 60? No, not even. I think like 40, 45.

Yeah, so like an average guy is about 45. I had a VO2 max test at 4,500 feet elevation of 83.6. Wow. So in comparing that maybe to elevation, that might have been like around 86, 87. But so like people listen, well, 86, 87. Um, but so like got people listening, well, 86, 87 was that. So, uh, Lance Armstrong, when he was blood doping had a VO2 max test done and it was around, what was it? 84, 84, I think. So, so, and, and I mean, think about it, like Lance Armstrong, we know him as he's done some serious endurance shit. Yeah. You know, and here's a guy, myself, that's just out there every day hiking up.

I mean, I'm hiking up monster mountains. I've got a 40-pound pack on, on average. And then when I'm packing stuff out, it might be my body weight, you know, through these mountains. Your body weight on top of that? Yeah, like an animal. Yeah, like, you know, i say i max my pack out about 150 170 pounds and i weigh about 150 170 pounds somewhere in there you know so i mean i you're really carrying a lot of weight going uphill mostly you know up and down obviously

and uh just doing it every day day in day out It's like there's no better type of endurance training. You think about it. I mean, I normally do about 20 miles a day and a lot of elevation gain. I did just one year. It wasn't my biggest year. It was just more of an average year. I tracked my elevation gain, and within one season, I would have done enough vertical up to climb ever 16 times

that's not that that's not the miles that's just straight elevation gain that's you know i mean thousands of miles every year you know i think my my largest year i've estimated that it'd probably be like summiting ever 60 times, something like that. 60 times? Yeah, it's just so much. I mean, you go do 3,000 feet a day and you're doing it for 300 days and it just starts adding up, you know? Did you see that chart?

Did you see that the excellent category for 18 to 26-year-old males was 60 in the highest category? Yeah, but put that up again, Jamie. So this 80-something, we're talking fucking freak. It's crazy. Like freak. Not just high, but like weird. Yeah.

The dudes that administered, I mean, this was like people might come in and be like, oh, was it a real? No, this was a legit test. These guys do professional athletes, everything. And the guy that had done it, Rob, I mean, he looked at me and he's like, I've been doing this for 24 years. Highest I've ever seen was a 74. He's like, this is nuts.

And he kind of like, he's like, oh, you're a this is nuts you know and he kind of like he's like oh you're a hunter you know and he kind of came in there i just kind of like you know came in there and low balled him i you know he's like do you do you work out much i was like no i mean i work you know you don't really work out no you know just climb up hills with shit on your back yeah i mean when when i when it's like my off what i my off season, it's any day that I'm not out in the woods, you know, I'll do workouts because otherwise I just get lazy, lethargic, you know, complacent. Like what do you do for a workout if you're not hunting? Oh, I mean, it could be, I like to run. I mean, I don't like to run.

I don't think anyone likes to run. If they tell you that, they're lying. I think they like the high. They like to run. They like the high run. I mean, I like to run, I guess, run I guess for as much as you like running I'll do just like body weight stuff

because the thing that I've learned for me is I'm just my body type is endurance that's it I'm built for endurance so for me to go do sit ups I'll be there all day like it doesn't do shit you know so I would

have to, I would have to change my, cause I went to, um, my buddy, Joe Dibble, he does like physical fitness training, nutrition, everything. I was like, man, I want to get big. And so he's like, all right, let's do some stuff. And he's like, dude, for you to get big, you're going to have to change your complete, like we have to completely change your muscles from these endurance muscles to muscles that are just like power. Yeah, but you're so young and in such good shape. I don't think it would be that hard. The real issue with it is you run the risk of being injured because if you want to get big, you have to do powerlifting stuff. You have to do deadlifts and squats.

The only way to really get big is you've got to start doing sets of three, three reps max. When you get to that doing like sets of three, you know, three reps max. And, you know, when you get to that third, you're like, when you do that, man, everything's getting stressed to its limit. And so your body starts freaking out and goes, we got to fucking get bigger. And then if you're shoveling protein down your face,

and by the way, farting up a fucking horrendous storm during the day. Why? Because you're going to take in too much protein. Your body's not going to know what to do with a lot of it. If you want to really do it right, you almost have to overload your system. You can, I mean, there's a lot of different schools of thought when it comes to getting big, but almost universally they agree that you need a high level of protein in your body.

And if you're eating like, you know, you're drinking like whey protein and all that you're just gonna fart man all the time my friend tate when tate was uh when he was really big when he was competing on the ultimate fighter dude was just constantly pounding protein bars and he and he would fart it was so bad that like people would run out of a room i mean i'm not kidding they would run away. He farted once in the lobby of the comedy store in La Jolla, and people started screaming. They were screaming like, my God, what the fuck is that? And it just impacted bowels filled with undigested protein, meeting digestive enzymes and acids. That's no fun. Nah.

Just opened the gates of hell. I'm just going to stick to the hiking, I think. Yeah. For you to get bigger, you'd have to do some serious, like you'd have to lift some serious weights, especially if you can carry a pack that much, that heavy all the time. You would have to go heavy.

You'd have to be doing like 315 pound squats and things like that but then you'd be worthless in the mountains oh yeah you got all bulky you'd be yep yeah it's like a you know it's a it's a weight to leg ratio in my opinion it's like my legs can carry a lot of weight but my body's light my upper body real light you know so i i trade in that weight and throw something in my pack you know you're but if your legs are that strong, I guarantee you your arms would adapt. If you force your arms to do things like a lot of chin-ups or things along those lines, I bet you'd fucking be able to bang off 20 of them. Because if you're in that kind of shape, dude, that's a huge advantage if you ever wanted to do jiu-jitsu.

If you ever wanted to learn a martial art. Jiu-jitsu, one of the big things about jiu-jitsu is just getting tired. Because you're straining against another grown man who's trying to kill you. It's exhausting. One of the big things that jiu-jitsu guys universally try to figure out is what's the best kind of strength and conditioning workout. A lot of guys run dunes. That's a big one, sand dunes.

Oh, yeah. I've been curious about jiu-jitsu. I did taekwondo as a kid. I think Remy did. We both did taekwondo for a long time. Did taekwondo for a long time. My roommate Jake's big into jiu-jitsu. I did taekwondo as a kid. I think Remy did, too. We both did taekwondo for a long time. Did taekwondo for a long time. My roommate Jake's big into jiu-jitsu now. He went over to Thailand, did some Muay Thai.

So I think that's going to be my in if I ever want to do it. Where do you live? You live in Reno? Yeah. I'll find you a school. I know there's got to be one near there. I just got my nephew into it. Did you?

My nephew was a wrestler. Is that what you do? Do you practice that? Yeah. Well, I started out in taekwondo. I used to teach taekwondo My nephew was a wrestler. Is that what you do, Jen? Do you practice that? Yeah. Well, I started out in Taekwondo. I used to teach Taekwondo. I was a U.S. Open champion. I won the Massachusetts State title four years in a row.

Before I ever became a comedian, that's what I used to do. I used to teach Taekwondo for a living. Wow. Yeah. And then I didn't get into jiu-jitsu until 96. I found out about the UFC, and then I started in L.A. in 96. My Taekwondo instructor when I was a kid was like my, I don't know, my gateway into becoming a real human, I think.

He was a good guy. Mine as well. Yeah, becoming a man, dealing with difficult shit. Same here. Yeah, martial arts, you know, there's a lot of goofiness to martial arts. There's a lot of sort of cult stuff, you know. A lot of times it can get really weird, especially if the instructor winds up being abusive. A lot of times it can get really weird, especially if the instructor winds up being abusive.

There was always this weirdness of this one guy who was the leader that everyone was terrified of and thought he was this great master that could kill anyone on the planet. Dude, if you knew about my master, if he got in the UFC, it would be too deadly. There's always that. That's interesting. Actually, the same guy who was so good for me ended up marrying one of his young students. How old was she? I think she was 17. Oh, Jesus Christ.

And he was in his deep 30s? Late 20s. That's not that bad. What belt was she? Yeah, maybe she was a wicked black belt. We tested for a black belt together. Yeah, you'd be great at jiu-jitsu. Just do it if you want to do it it's great martial art

it's to me the best martial art because you can go full blast and you don't have to worry about brain trauma you know the thing about kickboxing is you can only spar so much you just little sparring just little thumps you know just not even full blast just getting hit with jabs and stuff your head gets rattled and that all that accumulates the cumulative damage inside your brain. It's just not good. My grandpa was a professional boxer and, uh, yeah, I mean his end of life wasn't as good as his beginning of life. You know what I'm saying?

I mean, by the time it was over is my dad and me and probably the only guys he even knew the name of half the time. Yeah. But, uh, I have, uh, friends uh friends that i uh started out with that have brain damage now and i knew them when i didn't i knew them when they were fine and now uh if i go back to boston and i see them i talk to them i see it i see it they're they're always drunk that's what it's like it's like always being drunk like hey is everything good out there you know do you like it out there is everything good out out there? So then he'll repeat stories.

Like, they'll tell you a story and then repeat it just a minute later and then try it again like a minute after that. It's sad. It's sad when you remember how a guy used to be fine and you're the same age as him. And you look at him and you're like, oh, fuck. Like, this is what happens. This is unavoidable.

You get hit in the head too many times. This is what happens. But you don't get that in jiu-jitsu. But you would have a giant advantage, dude. You have fucking great endurance too, man. You'd have a giant, and you're a big guy. The endurance that you have is unusual for a guy as big, as heavy as you are.

So that's the thing is my body puts on muscle very, very easily, but I tend to have a more endurance lifestyle, so my body's always a little confused. It's like, what the fuck are you doing, man? Yeah, your dad's a stocky fella as well. And a hell of a fucking cook. He is, isn't he?

Oh, dude. His dad hooked us up when we were in Wisconsin at deer camp. His dad was the chef. Nice. He didn't cook a pizza. Oh, dude. He cooked everything, man. He made chili and really good food.

Halibut ceviche, you know? That was... The thing, too, man. Doesn't everything taste better after hunting day? Yeah. I mean... It's amazing. Yeah.

You just use up everything and no matter what you put you could put like a nasty bologna sandwich i've enjoyed more bologna sandwiches out hunting i hate bologna i've never eaten we ate deer heart um of a deer that i shot we ate it maybe what two hours later yeah if even if even two hours it was amazing just fresh off the frying pan crackle boom like that it doesn't get was amazing. Just fresh off the frying pan, crackle, boom, like that. It doesn't get any, and delicious. Yeah, fresh meat. The heart's like the best.

It's the most tender out of a fresh kill is the heart. And you wouldn't think it, you know, but it's actually like compared to other organs, you know, the heart's a muscle. And, you know, off of what happens, like when you shoot your deer, rigor comes into the animal. And that's why right off the bat, you know, that back steak might be a little chewy. And then you let it, you know, wait a week or whatever. And what's happening is that rigor is breaking down. And it's actually, you know, the meat's almost decomposing over time. That's when you get those, like, dry-aged steaks.

You're just eating rotten meat. It's so good. Isn't that weird? But it takes that much time for the rigor to break down. Eating so much fresh meat on Meat Eater now, I have a taste for fresh meat. I have a taste for that sort of copper,

metallic, fresh meat. Can you put that closer to your face? I have a taste for fresh meat, that almost metal taste. And I do not like aged meat. I don't either. I'm 100% with you. I don't eat aged meat anymore unless I have to if I'm in a restaurant. Somebody forces me. But if I eat beef, I try to eat.

I have a ranch that I buy from that's near me that's 100% grass-fed. They don't supplement with corn at all. And it's a dark red meat. It's like a game meat. It's weird. It's like the cattle looks different. There's less fat on it. It looks natural.

It's not supposed to look like natural yeah it's supposed to but the grossest thing is when you go to the butcher and you see the dry age situation you see what they're doing you're like the fuck are you doing that meat you're ruining a big percentage of it first of all because the outside they cut it off that rotten brown shit yeah it's fucked yeah i don't you know i'm not like i'm the kind of guy that I eat wild, I eat stuff I kill I eat game meat, I eat wild meat and when you eat that, it's hard to explain to somebody that doesn't because when you eat that

it feels like food in your body you feel regenerated, it feels good I eat a lot of elk because I guide hunters for elk and that's one thing that i always hunt and an elk steak is red meat but it has less cholesterol than skinless chicken wow so people so if your doctor's like no no red meat no it's not no red meat it's no weird

human mutated meat which would be like corn fed marbled beef yeah i uh like i just always eat game meat. And then I wasn't even thinking about it. I had some clients show up, and they brought some steaks, like beef steaks. So I just threw them on the grill. I mean, I cook all the time. And grill's on fire. I'm like, holy shit, what's going on?

And I realized I haven't cooked a beef steak in probably ever. I don't know. It's a weird thing to think. I've never cooked beef. You just always game always eat game yeah I don't I wondered if it's a placebo effect you know eating game like how good it makes you feel afterwards but the reason why I don't think it is is because of my kids I fed my three-year-old and my five-year-old venison and they go at it like they're fucking starving it's crazy like and then they keep eating it and like this is so good and they're really confused because they think deers

are really cute they're like this is deer and i'm like it's deer and they're like it's yummy and i go yeah it's yummy and but i'm watching them eat it and like it's they eat it way more voraciously is that a word then they do it doesn't sound like it word? It doesn't sound like it. It can be. It doesn't sound like it. Way more aggressively than they eat meat. Like if I give them steak. If I just chop up beefsteak, they'll eat it. But there's like a, what is this? Well, you know who else gets it?

Our vegans and raw food people on the other end of the spectrum, the very crunchy sort of hippie, because they'll say the same thing. I eat this food. It makes me feel alive. I can feel like it just feels better somehow. It's the same thing with wild meat. Well, yeah, they're right. Vegans are right.

I feel great when I eat a lot of really fresh, leafy vegetables. I drink kale shakes all the time in the morning, and I feel fantastic. I feel all the nutrients in my body. The problem with vegans, of course, is just this crazy, self-righteous, moral, high-ground attitude about eating animals. I get the idea of not wanting to do harm, but if you look at real studies as far as farming goes, unless you're growing all of your own vegetables, it's very likely you're participating in mass death. The death of rabbits and rodents and the destruction of habitat in order to plant

these crops and god forbid if you're using fucking pesticides and what what damage you're doing to the environment like it's not that goddamn simple no humans create so many externalities on everything i mean you you take a a plant that was never supposed to be here and plant it and you just wiped out something that should have been there you You know? I mean, we cannot, you can't go back from that. Yeah, we fucked up a lot of things like that, right? Yeah, it's, I don't know. I get where vegans are coming from. I get someone wanting to be a nice person, but it's just, what I've always said is, you

know, these animals don't live forever, they're not bulletproof, and they're made out of food. Are you still going to try to be all wild game by the next year? Yes, by 2014. I'm going pig hunting with Steve this weekend. We're going to hunt wild boar. I'm trying by the end of 2014 to be all wild game.

Have you calculated how much you need? Yeah, I've got to kill some big shit. That's where the elk comes into play. Freezer in my house, we've got two elk in it right now. We'll run through that for next season. Yeah, that's where the elk comes into play. Like, freezer in my house, we've got two elk in it right now. We'll run through that for next season. Yeah, I want an elk for sure and maybe even a buffalo. There you go. The buffalo.

You've got to get another freezer. Yeah, that's a Partridge family tour bus. We killed a buffalo in Mexico. It was a young female. It was just the finest meat I've ever had. Really? By far in my entire life. Wow.

Just fantastic. That was wild, that episode in Mexico, because you got to see how these cultures learned how to preserve their meat in the absence of refrigerators and electricity. They came up with all these interesting methods in order to make sure that the meat didn't go bad. One of them was they would take these very thin strips of steak and then hang it over like a hanger.

And it would all dry out. And then they would chop it up and reconstitute it with water and then cook with it. It was called machaca, yeah. I'd had machaca and eggs before at a Mexican joint, but I didn't know what the fuck it was. And I just took, I go, what's good? And the guy's like, machaca and eggs. I'm like, alright, man.

Like beef jerky and eggs. Yeah, well it's not though. It's like a pulled beef. Yeah, it's once they reconstitute it go, what's good? And the guy's like, machaca and eggs. I'm like, all right, man. Like beef jerky and eggs. Yeah, well, it's not, though. It's like a pulled beef. Yeah, it's once they're reconstituted, then it's good. Yeah, once they get it wet again. Just soak it? Yeah, they add water to it. Yeah, I don't understand. They stew it.

They stew it. Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, but it was wild watching these different people and these different cultures try to preserve meat and figure out how they would like try to figure out how to keep it to stay alive otherwise you're going to have to shoot another

buffalo in a couple of days when everything starts rotting. Can you picture the little old lady on there that cut that meat up and dried it? Can you picture her face? My grandpa has a crush on her. Really? Your grandpa has a crush on her? Yeah, because when we did that javelina coyote goose deer.

That was a great episode. You guys ate a coyote. Yeah, that was interesting. It wasn't bad. It wasn't good. It wasn't bad. That was weird, though. What had gotten into the both of your heads? You and Steve Vanella shoot a fucking coyote? When you're a guy like me or Steve, you've been thinking about that since you're four years old.

You're like, dude, I just want to eat a coyote one day. You know? You get two of you together and you're like, let's go eat some coyote. Let's see what it tastes like. Yeah, well, I'm going to have to eat one that's been sneaking around my yard. They're trying to figure out how to get to my chickens.

Oh, yeah? Sneaky fucks. It's so weird. They'll get there. Oh, I know they will, these fucking creeps. I was in my yard. I was just about to let the chickens out, and I see this motherfucker looking through the fence, just looking right at me and looking at the chickens.

I'm like, whoa, that's kind of creepy. It's like imagine having a friend, and you know that the friend is safe, but right outside the door, you could see a guy wants to kill your friend. Yeah. And he's just trying to figure out a way to get in. That's what it was. He's going to get in and kill your friend with his face. And these chickens are like my little friends. They lay eggs. I say, hello

girls. I feed them. They buck and they come near you when you come out. And this cunty fucking dog wants to eat my friends. We had some chickens. We're deciding okay, we're going to let them free. Because they've got to get out and they've got to peck and they've got to get some bugs and they're just happier. So we let the chickens, you know, and we're deciding, okay, we're going to let them free. Because they've got to get out, and they've got to peck, and they've got to get some bugs, and they're just happier. Yeah.

So we let the chickens out. Well, I didn't know their neighbor had a rooster. The rooster comes over, right, and he just claims my chickens. And so you'd go out to feed the chickens. The rooster would come attack you. Whoa. I mean, he would just get up there, spur your legs, everything. Yeah.

So, I mean, this crazy rooster, and we could not keep him away from the chickens i mean he's raping my ladies and i want my goal was to eat unfertilized chicken eggs yeah and so yeah so we're trying to think like we can't kill this dude's rooster i mean that's just not right so i got this uh concrete rooster and i put it out by the chicken coop that rooster comes over and just starts fighting this concrete rooster he kicked his own ass and just left never came back so if you have rooster problems man just just get a statue that's amazing kick his own ass that's amazing what a dumb fucking animal he was like scared to come back you know he just fought a rock stupid i was uh telling this story on the podcast i don't know what it was but i was uh I was telling this story on the podcast. I don't know what it was, but I was going outside to close the coop at night because I forgot to close it.

We have our lawn is like this large grassy area, and there's an area where the chicken coop is. And they just wander around the grass and eat bugs and shit. But right outside that is a fence, and there's like this woods and shit. Right outside that is a fence, and there's, like, this woods and shit. And I was stepping up to the fence, and these deer just start. It was the middle of the night, like 2 o'clock in the morning. Just fucking hauling ass. Like, brrump, brrump, brrump.

Fucking not because of me, because something was chasing them. I just happened to be close enough where it happened, and I don't know what it was. But I just stood there there in silence and i'm hearing wild kingdom shit you know 100 pound deer at least running away from whatever the fuck it was it's maybe coyotes you know maybe a mountain lion i don't know i thought i saw a coyote like a silhouette over the in the distance but it was you know like i said it's pretty dark out so it's hard to tell but no more than a couple me 150 feet at most from me it's like like this crazy shit taking place, like right in my yard. I live in suburbia. I don't live in the woods.

Have you ever seen a lion or lion sign? I've seen two. Not in my neighborhood, but I've seen two ever. I saw one in Colorado that actually wound up eating my dog. I had a little dog get killed in Colorado by a mountain lion. What kind of dog? It's a little one. It was my wife's dog.

It was a Pomeranian-American Eskimo mix. Cute dog, too. Sad. But I have a giant dog, and the giant dog would pal around with the two little dogs, and everything was cool, but the giant dog hurt his arm, so he was inside. His paw. And so he was inside, and the two little dogs were out by themselves, and the mountain lion was like, okay, I've been waiting for this.

Here we go. This year at my hunting lodge, my girlfriend was doing the cooking and stuff. And so she leaves our little cabin to go to the lodge to start breakfast. It's dark, you know. She comes. She's like, I saw a mountain lion. I freaked out. I was like, right here by the port.

And I'm like, it wasn't a mountain lion. It was a deer, you know. I was like, just run over there. You'll be fine. Okay. So she runs over there. a deer you know it's like just run over there you'll be fine okay so she runs over and then all of a sudden like a week later these uh we we left some capes out disappearing capes yeah like elk cape you know like oh yeah so like we skinned we skinned an elk out had the head and the hide

attached to it you know and just sitting there um underneath where we had all the meat hanging and this is just like right behind my cabin. Disappears. And I'm thinking somebody's messing with us, you know. So, me and my brother are all blaming everyone. Oh, who's hiding these things? Next day, it happens again after everybody left this time. What the hell is going on?

Well, it snowed that night. And sure enough, came back. There's been a cat living just like right behind the cabin. A mountain lion stealing shit. And I was like, was like oh okay i guess it was kind of it must have it was like right there by the porch hanging out at night you know i think that was what was going on with my dogs too because this thing what whatever was there had been circling around the house for a couple days the dogs would go fucking crazy crazy night not just normal crazy but fucking crazy like and I'm like what are you fuckers barking at come on inside and I bring them inside and they'd be like real jumpy and

looking around so they've been around a while it was about 70 pounds something like that wasn't a big one you know yeah and then another one I saw in Santa Monica or not a Santa Monica Santa Barbara just driving down the street at night I saw this thing run across the street Santa Monica, Santa Barbara. Just driving down the street at night. I saw this thing run across the street, and I thought it was a coyote. And then I see its tail. It's got this floppy cat tail. I was like, oh, shit, that's a mountain lion.

I still don't have a confirmed sighting, and it pisses me off every time. Really? It's like the one thing I haven't experienced in a while. I put this up on my Twitter. Somebody sent me this. It's one jacking a deer underneath a feeder somewhere in Georgia. That was West Virginia? Yeah, the guy said it was West Virginia, but apparently it's not.

Apparently it was Georgia, the original photo. A lot of people claim their friends sent that picture, but it's a big fucking animal, man. They are. Look at the forearms on those fuckers. I've seen quite a few out in the wild. A couple years ago, I actually was fishing in the spring and found one caught in a log jam after a flood. Dead one, you know? Really?

Yeah, I've never seen a dead lion anywhere. That was the first one. Like in a river. Steve found a crazy photo that his friend sent him of an elk that got killed by a tree. The tree fell and the elk was literally open mouth like this. Mummified, right? Frozen solid. Like a mummy.

Yeah, frozen solid. and see if you can find that it's on steve ranella's uh twitter um but just it's the freakiest image it's just like it's screaming like as the the log landed on it and killed it you know it's just its mouth stayed open as it died that's crazy yeah i guess if you're out there long enough you see enough crazy shit yeah that's the thing when you're out there long enough, you see enough crazy shit. You do. Yeah, that's the thing. When you're out there, I mean, you just never know what you're going to see from day to day. Okay. Here's the question.

Bigfoot. Bigfoot. Yes or no. Yes or no. I want it. You know, I just can't buy it, man. I just don't buy it. I think my grandpa used to

get a little bit liquored up and he would put on a gorilla suit. He would run in front of He's like one of the most crazy persons that ever walked the face of the earth. He would run in front of logging trucks and then they would freak out

on the radios and stuff. And then he would go into the bar, and these dudes would be ghost white and talking about how they saw Bigfoot. In their mind, they saw Bigfoot, and he loved it. You see these tracks, he's the guy that would put Bigfoot feet on and walk around with his buddy for no reason. They just love to do that. It's like there's Bigfoot, but there's dudes that like to make people think there's Bigfoot more than I

think there's actually Bigfoots. Yeah. I'm with you. Um, I, uh, I think there's a lot of people that like to fuck with people and that's probably a lot of what people are seeing out there.

I got approached at this one show by this dude that was a professional squash, squash hunter. Right. And he has a business card and everything works out of Colorado. And he's like, man, I'll, I'll take you'll take you and he's like for for three grand or whatever i'll take you out and he's he's telling me about the family groups of these squashes squatches whatever you call them and uh how he knows them and they're really elusive but he sees them all the time and uh you know he does these guided tours i'm thinking to who's crazier, that dude or the people that go with him, you know?

And then the other thing is what's, I don't know what's crazier if he believes himself or if he's just straight up lying to you, you know, like, does he believe his own BS? They're all a little delusional. We, uh, for the sci--fi show we went to Mount Rainier up in Washington State and we met a lot of people that had claimed to seen Bigfoot and some of them were interesting there's this one woman who was really interesting she seemed like she was telling the truth she saw a bunch of elk run away and then she saw this thing she's like it was a gorilla she's like I'm looking at a gorilla what the fuck and she was didn't have a website she wasn't selling a book she didn't seem like she was lying.

I don't know what she really saw. She might have seen a brown bear or a black bear that was, like, in the woods in between, you know, trees. She might have saw it moving in a weird way, convinced herself that it was a gorilla. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. I took a criminal justice class, and in the class, everybody's sitting, and there's 400 people in this room. And the teacher had somebody come in and steal a laptop from someone you know in the class like didn't tell anyone and as everybody write down the description of somebody the guy that came in

nobody's matched up you know what i mean like your mind tells you what you want to think yeah you know you fill in the blanks especially if adrenaline's going or it's new to you. I mean, now, if it was a guy that, say, I would say is in the woods all the time, like an expert at animals, I mean, most people in the wild, a deer runs away in a split second. They don't know if it's a white tail or a mule deer. Right. You know, I mean, like, how do these people have the expertise to identify a species when they, you know, are half a mile away, they don't have proper equipment, and they're going,

oh yeah, I saw a Bigfoot. And you're seeing it for a half a second. A half a second, yeah. Maybe a two-second period of time. Two seconds is one, two, boom, it's gone. Gone. And then your memory has to fill in all this blank. Yeah, what was it?

And then you tell yourself what it was. Yeah. If we spend enough time in the woods, I will get one on camera. Yeah. If they exist. If it exists. I will get it on camera. How much time do you. If it exists. I will get it on camera. How much time do you guys ever spend in the Pacific Northwest, which seems to be like

the hotbed for sightings? Just Southeast Alaska. We spend a lot of time there, but not much in Washington, Oregon. If they're anywhere, they're in Canada. The only one I believe is Les Stroud. Survivor Man? Yeah. He told me he had an encounter, and Rinella mocked it.

Rinella. What it. Rinella. What was his experience? Well, he said he was in his tent and he said he had heard something earlier in the day that was weird. He had heard something walking through the woods,

but he didn't see anything. And then he said he was in his tent at night and it was pitch black in Alaska and in the middle of nowhere, flew two hours by plane to get there to land on this lake and then to get out and be in his tent. And he heard some stomping.

Like he heard something that was clearly, it seemed like bipedal, that was walking around. And he said it was like total silence. And he heard this thing, and then he heard it, you know, I think he said like less than 100 feet away from him, go like, make this crazy noise, like a primate noise that he thought. And he goes and reaches for his camera, it hears his movement, and just runs away.

Interesting. Yeah, it's very interesting. The reason to me that it's interesting is because that fucking guy goes everywhere. He'll go to the middle of nowhere and survive. And he's not a bullshit artist. He seems legit. Yeah, 100%.

If it ended up being that he wasn't legit, I'd be pretty sad. I would then doubt my ability to do this. His take on it was like, look, if you were... You want another beer? No, I'm good. Whatever you want, man.

No, this water's good. His take on it was that how often do you see a wolverine if you're just hiking? How often do you see... There's a lot of animals that exist out there and these aren't even smart animals. If this thing was living in the Pacific Northwest, he's like,

it's so dense up there and there's so much area where people just don't get to that something could possibly live in small numbers there. There's a lot of woods up there, man. There's a lot. But the problem is everybody I talk to that believes they've seen it, almost everybody, it's just they're kooky. They're fucking they're nutty people man they're just this is not a like a doctor who is just on vacation and saw

something and had this definitive sighting and the lack of trail camera pictures yeah zero trail camera pictures and there there's crazy enough dudes that'll dedicate their whole lives to finding it you know i mean they exist we've got we've got but now did you hear about the um they this There's crazy enough dudes that will dedicate their whole lives to finding it. Oh, yeah. I mean. They exist. We've got to. But now, did you hear about the. They were doing bear studies in the Sierras. And one of the researchers got a trail camera picture of a wolverine. They didn't know wolverines were still in the Sierras.

Wow. And it's like, where's this wolverine come from? You know, I've been in this. I've spent a lot of my life in this area. I've never seen a wolverine, never seen a track, never even thought of seeing a wolverine. And here they've got a legitimate biologist found it. Well, how about that mountain lion they found in Connecticut? I didn't hear about that.

They're everywhere, man. Mountain lions are everywhere now. It came from South Dakota. It walked from South Dakota to Connecticut. When it died, it got hit by a car or something in Connecticut walked from South Dakota to Connecticut. When it died, it got hit by a car or something in Connecticut. Whatever killed it in Connecticut. They did the lineage

on this. They apparently knew where this animal came from. We're able to trace it all the way back to South Dakota. It walked a thousand fucking miles. It's a trip. That's pretty crazy. There's a mountain lion in Connecticut. There's coyotes in the Bronx. In the big park up there. Chicago has a fucking whole population of them. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. There's coyotes. Mountain lion in Connecticut. There's coyotes in the Bronx. Yeah.

In the big park up there. Well, Chicago has a fucking whole population of them. Do you know that story? Chicago Park has a whole population of them. They have a whole population of coyotes that are apparently a part of the ecosystem there. Eating what garbage, you think? Eating rats. Oh, shit. Rats?

Well, that's good. Let me make sure it's not Detroit. It's Chicago. I think most big cities it's not Detroit. It's Chicago. I think most big cities have coyote populations. Really? Yeah. I've seen pictures of coyotes just carrying license plates down the street. I didn't.

Yeah, it is. It is. They have them tracked. It's an ecological study of coyotes in the Chicago metropolitan area. I didn't even see one until I came to L.A., and I was staying in Burbank when I first moved here, and I was driving down the street, and I see three coyotes walking down the street,

and I was like, this is some apocalyptic shit. Yeah. These creepy little murderers. Oh. That's all. Look at the little cute coyote puppies. Yum. In Chicago.

They're all good until they get hungry and they start eating your kids. Or your lap dogs. Yeah, and then you realize, oh, these are creeps. These are creepy little predators that live amongst us. I knew a lady who got her little dog snatched right off her leash. Trolling for coyotes. Yeah.

Coyote fishing. One of the challenges that we're looking to do for the new show is to harvest some coyotes and then take the skins and wrap ourselves in the skins and then get in close, like sneaking on an animal using camouflage of the coyotes, like pretend to be a coyote. Well, let's talk about that new show. Why don't you, Jamie, let's play the clip that I emailed you. Apex Predator? Yeah, Apex Predator.

This is a new show that, uh, Dan's producing. Remy's going to be a part of. Let's, uh, check this out now. It's on the media.

There is, but one law of the land. Kill or be killed. In life, kill or be killed. In life, there is death. But in death, there is life. It took man thousands of years to climb to the top of the food chain. But we didn't do it alone.

Nature itself was our teacher, and those who hunted us became our guides. And though in today's world we have no natural predators, there are still many timeless lessons that nature can teach us to hone our hunting skills and earn the right to be called apex predator. If you look at humans what's pushed us forward? The need to survive. How do we survive? By eating. What do we eat? Other animals. So what we're doing here is essentially something I like to call hunt science. The science of how things have hunted

and how things have evolved. In order to do this, we need to break it down into pieces, dissect every bit of nature in an attempt to adapt and replicate the strategies, skills, and techniques of the most proficient hunters in the world. Concealment, stealth, tracking,

endurance, mental focus, and heightened sensory perception. By studying nature and analyzing the traits of the fiercest hunters on earth, I'll devise unorthodox training techniques to push beyond my limits as a modern technical hunter and tap into the primal instinct of the apex predator. It's the first morning, the sun isn't even up yet, we've already got a herd of elk. Every time I've seen wolves catching elk, they've started in a funnel like this

where one wolf will be on an opposite ridge and they'll kind of howl back and forth and then one will make their move. By the time they get to the second one, they've already started to wear down. We could keep them in this bowl. We have the upper hand. Let's get going. Yeah.

So when the wolf's hunting, the first thing he's gonna do is sneak into the herd, and then get the herd moving. Once he gets the herd moving, the pack's job is to cause confusion. What this will do is separate his prey and his intended target from the rest of the herd. Now he'll continue to push the elk to the point of exhaustion. The wolf's goal is to maintain his energy levels while wearing the elk down. Once the elk is on the move, the wolf's going to try to cut him off. We can stay high on the ridge. They'll be on the same place.

Let's just keep hitting them back and forth like this, can't we? We'll burst the energy and then let's just kind of pace ourselves. Disorient them. After he's cut the herd of elk off, then he's going to move in for the kill. That looks badass. Coming fall 2014. Where are you guys going to have this on? What's it going to be on?

That's a secret. That's a secret. Still in negotiation? Yeah. Still trying to figure that out? It looks dope, though. It looks very exciting. Thank you.

I get excited about it. It seems like sneaking up on an elk with a bow might be one of the most fucking thrilling things ever. Yeah. So on that episode, what our goal was, it wasn't just to sneak up on an elk with a bow might be one of the most fucking thrilling things ever. Yeah. So on that episode, what our goal was, it wasn't to sneak up on them. We actually pushed them and then ran them down. Exhausted them. Exhausted, yeah. Wow.

It's almost sort of a persistence hunting. Yeah, it was a persistence hunting thing. Well, what we did was we tried to do it like a pack of wolves would. So we went in here with the idea that the only way we're going to kill one is if we do it like like a pack of wolves would so we went in here with the idea that the only way we're going to kill one is if we do it like a wolf would now we have to have a bow because that's like the law and everything i mean we'd be like hell let's try spears but it's not legal you know um so we so we got the herd we snuck in like the wolves would then we pushed them and then what we did was the the elk kind of have these escape routes and because

i mean i've spent accumulation of just if you just counted the straight days it'd be like something like six years chasing these elk you know just like straight 365 days a year six years worth of if you add it up all the time and uh so i mean, I really know this herd and how they move and, and elk in general, you know, I've studied elk for a long time. And, uh, so what we did was while the elk would go up and down every ridge, we would run up and catch them up, you know, like cut them off. So they would like, we'd be racing to the same place, but they would be going a harder route, you know?

So they would be like, their tongues are hanging out, they're tired. And what we're trying to do is get in front of them, hoping that by the time we catch up and run them long enough, that they are tired and are just like walking past us and we can kill them. You have to be in fucking crazy shape to get an elk tired. Yeah. It was ambitious. Fuck.

Fucking elk run fast. They're huge. They do. The thing that we have going for us, though, is, I mean, like humans can sweat. Fuck. Fucking elk run fast. They're huge. They do. The thing that we have going for us, though, is, I mean, like, humans can sweat. Yes. Animals can't. They pant. You know, they've got their tongues out.

They're tired fast. They're a big animal. You know, we are really light. We're mobile. We can carry water. We can refuel. If an elk wants to refuel, you know how much grass he has to eat? Because they don't break this.

I mean, grass is the hardest thing to digest on the planet, you know? They need special enzymes to do it. We can just power down a shot blocks or whatever and just keep running. It's really fascinating to actually look at the science behind it and find out what a human is capable of compared to a four-legged animal. Because in endurance situations, we have a pretty good situation. Like it's something that humans can do yeah yeah the sweat thing's the big part of it yeah it's a big part of it but also i mean a little bit of like kind of how um like wolves hunt is is a lot of intelligence you know

they outsmart their prey um and a lot of it's the pack mentality hunting is a pack pushing them like we kind of created this pack and in that episode we created a pack where you know myself and my brother were hunters and then we also have you know we aren't we're filming this so we have guys with cameras so we incorporate them in the pack as part of the strategy and uh it gets a little wild it gets western you know i mean you're trying to film yourself and four other dudes, or three other dudes, chase elk through the mountains to the point where you can kill one like a wolf would. Well, it's cool that you're taking a novel approach to another outdoors slash hunting type show.

You know, this is a very novel approach. I like the science part of it the best. It's just like we're doing these little experiments, like learning about what an animal actually has in its biology and then seeing if we can match it and learning about it in the process. To me, it's just fucking fascinating. In each episode, too, there's a huge training element. It's not like we're trying to bullshit people.

It's like if I'm going to do this, man, I've got to learn something and try to adapt it. And so we you know, we went out there and that's where that VO2 max test that we were talking about earlier as part of this episode, where it's like, okay, how do we stack up against wolves? And it's like, dude, you aren't going to stack. I mean, we, we ended up, we got like this, uh, 90% wolf and raced it. And it wasn't like, I'm going to beat a wolf. No, it was like, it was like, let's see how bad I get my ass kicked in the mountains to know where i stand like is this even going to be possible because if you tell like a normal hunter

like yeah we're gonna run an elk down and kill it run it down yeah bullshit you know right now how are we going to go about this and is it even possible after we race the dog we're like this isn't gonna work and then we went and we went and did the vo2 max test and everyone's like well if anyone on this planet is going to do it it's probably going to be you you know but you learn that

so Remy had an extraordinarily high VO2 max score but it wasn't a third of what a trained canine is like a dog that's in shape is something in the range of 300

which is just ridiculous did you ever see the Werner Herzog film Happy People Life in the Taiga you remember when the guy comes back to camp

on his snowmobile and the dog falls in the entire way? The dog runs the whole distance. It's like a full day of riding this fucking snowmobile. The dog is just full clip trotting next to him for the whole day. Yeah, I think those Iditarod canines are some of the, they're the most fit animal on the planet. God.

It's crazy. Yeah, I can imagine. They don't have sweat either. It doesn't matter. They're just most fit animal on the planet. God. It's crazy. Yeah, I can imagine. And they don't have sweat either. It doesn't matter. They're just designed for that. Yeah. And they got that pack thing going. I mean, they're all running together.

Yeah. You know, when you go do something with your friends that are pretty hardcore, you end up doing more than you wanted to. Yes. It's like any time I try to go do something, I'll go with guys that are better than me. Yeah. Because it's just going to push you further than you think. So those dogs get in this pack, and they just start pushing each other, pushing each other, pushing each other. And that happened to us while we were out there.

It's like, you know, here's Dan, and Dom is another guy that was running the camera. And here we're all out there just, like, kicking our own asses, and everybody's doing it. Yeah. And it was awesome. Well, you can't you can't really underestimate the the power of influence no the power of the influence of uh other bad motherfuckers that are around you that's why i've always tell people if you want to have a good life surround yourself with a bunch of bad motherfuckers exactly they're doing a bunch of badass shit

you're gonna want to do badass shit you're gonna want to keep up with them when you're gonna be around them your standards will be higher yeah yeah if you're the most badass guy you know, you aren't going anywhere. That's one of the reasons why it's really dangerous in camps, like in mixed martial arts camps that comes into play, if you're the alpha dog of the camp. Because people sort of beta you, and you kick everybody's ass, and then you go in there with another alpha. You're not used to dealing with that.

You're not used to rising to the occasion when you're confronted with an equal adversary and it comes down to focus and discipline and willpower. Yeah. It's good to be king, but I guess not. It's not good to be king.

No, no. It's good to be one bad motherfucker in a troop of other bad motherfuckers and all become a brotherhood and push each other. That's an interesting thing.

Everybody wants that alleviation of pressure. They want to be the top dog. But that's a trap. It's a trap because if you become that, then you don't grow. Then you're done. It's time to die. There's no peace. No one gets peace.

There will be no rest. You never get to retire. Someone said to me, what are you going to do when you retire I go die that'll be when I'm dead I'm not retiring from shit as long as I'm alive

I'm going to keep doing what I enjoy doing you know and maybe some of it won't make any money but I treat it the same way as the shit that I do that does make money

there's no retiring shut up bitch there's no golden rainbow there's no there's no fucking boat you're going to get off you're going to die you're going to live you're going to get off and roll. You're going to die. You're going to live.

You're going to die. While you're alive, stay alive. Stay alive and keep moving. Yeah, this idea that we just go out to pasture for a third of our life is like, okay. Those are your golden years, Randy Warren. I don't know about that. I'm going to go hard as long as I can. I'm riding this bitch right into the rocks.

Fuck it. Just keep the throttle going. And when it hits the beach, just hope your momentum carries you right into the rocks. Boom. Otherwise, fuck it, man. Those last few years are terrible. You're all on antidepressants,

sitting around your porch, drooling into your fucking lemonade. Get out of here, man. Come on. What are you trying to do? My buddy always said he'd start doing heroin when he turned 83. That's a good year. That's a good year.

Yeah, if I had, like, terminal cancer, boom, heroin's the first shit I'd try. I want to know what the fuss is all about. Yeah. You know? I'd get a fast car and see if I can drive across the country backwards. Your gears will blow out. How long do you think a good car and see if I can drive across the country backwards. Your gears will blow out. How long do you think a good car can go in reverse? I don't know.

Can it even go a mile? Oh, yeah. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. They're not just one gear, though. If you had to drive in first gear across the country, how long would that last? Your transmission would explode. You'd be like, what are you doing, stupid?

Look at the fucking revs in this thing. Boom! Something would give out. I don't know. Whatever. That means nothing. Being in this world where you hunt 200 plus, 300 plus days a year, what's the reaction when you talk to like a normal person

who doesn't have anything to do with hunting and they find out you do so much of this hunting? What is the standard reaction? Is there a typical reaction? Yeah, actually, I mean, I think most people are like receptive of it and they're like, that's badass. Because for a lot of reasons. One, it's like very few people do what they love every single day.

Like I tell people I've never worked a day in my life. You know, I mean, I love it so much. If I had to choose what I was going to do, it'd be what I'm doing. And I don't care who you are, what you like. Like people respect that. You know, if somebody tells me something that they're into, you know, maybe like ballet, it's like not my thing. But if that's your thing and you're doing it and you love it, that's cool. Like that's that crosses any barrier of what you know, what you don't know, you know, and maybe like ballet, it's like not my thing, but if that's your thing and you're doing it and you love it, that's cool. Like that's, that crosses any barrier of what you know, what you don't know, you know? Um, because I think a lot of people aspire for that.

And then, uh, the other part is, I mean, a lot of people now more than ever, I think, uh, this idea of hunting and kind of living, maybe not necessarily living off the land, but just being out there eating wild meats and other things. It's like, it's a trend that's popular now and people are interested in it. I think I've, uh, like people find out and they're like, really, you do that? Oh man, what, well, do you eat it? Yeah. You know, like I'd like to try that or, you know, I mean, just also people ask, you know, a lot of crazy questions. Like what, uh, you know, like what's the craziest thing you've ever seen? What's the craziest thing you've ever done? Because it's a wild life. It's essentially, I mean, I compare my life to probably that of pioneers a long time ago that those were the guys that wrote the stories that people read,

you know, they wanted to hear about real adventure. And it's like, I mean, I tell people out there, I mean, it's when you're out there, it's legit. I mean, I tell people out there, I mean, when you're out there, it's legit. I mean, I've been in a lot of life or death situations. I've seen a lot of things that people will have never seen. I've been places where I bet very few humans have ever been. What is the most extreme life or death situation you think you've ever been in? Is it one that stands out or there have been so many?

Yeah, I mean, from a very early age, I've run into a few. I was struck by lightning when I was a kid. What? Yeah, that was interesting. Dude, maybe that's your VOMax. That's it, dude.

You became a fucking mutant. You got struck by lightning. Yeah. Fuck, how old were you? I was like, it was before kindergarten. God damn! It's like my first memory, you know, just a little kid.

Oh, my God. And this wasn't even, I wasn't even out anywhere. It was just backyard with my dad looking over the city. We just got done putting up a basketball hoop. Boom. Fried. Whoa. So it was the basketball hoop itself that attracted the electricity?

It was like, yeah, it was over a mile away was the clouds, and they call it like bolts over the blue. It just, those lightning bolts can go up to a mile away from their center, and it was one of those massive, like in Nevada, lightning is, it just happens because there's so many independent mountain ranges. Those clouds move, create this positive and negative energy, and then they're super powerful. I mean, it was a crazy experience but i was you know i was pretty young um i remember it my dad my me

and my dad both got struck my dad was paralyzed for almost a month and then just like nerves grew back you know holy shit yeah your dad was paralyzed for a month about yeah maybe maybe a few weeks three weeks something like that. From the neck down? From the waist? No, from the waist down. Oh, my God. See, he got hit above the waist, and the doctor said that he wouldn't be alive, but he was an athlete, too. I mean, I think a lot of the VO2 max comes from my genes.

I've got, like, on both sides of the family, just super athletes. And my dad would run every day, and his heart could handle that burst. I got struck in my right leg, right above the knee. It came out right below the knee. It left like a pencil-sized bruise all the way through my leg. And, you know, I mean, I woke up. I didn't really know what was going on. It's kind of like, I remember it pretty well.

And when the movie Saving Private Ryan came out, when that bomb goes off right next to the guy, you know, and it's like, everything's like quiet, but weird. It was exactly like that. I think like anybody that's kind of had some kind of shell shock like that, that clip in that movie is so realistic. Like the dude that made that clip had to have experienced that, you know? It's so loud you can't

hear anything you're like everything's confusing i mean you're like watching the rain fall in slow motion because your heart's going so fast all you feel is your heart you're like watching rain like like lands on your skin explodes lands on your skin explodes people are talking to you but it's like they talked to you three seconds ago you know like a three second delay kind of thing you're like i don't know what's going on, and then black out again. Wow. And so what was the physical repercussions for you? For me, you know, I remained pretty unscathed.

I had a twitch until I was about 17, you know. You had a twitch from that? Holy shit. What did it look like? What did the twitch look like? Oh, nothing. Pretty much unscathed. Just a broken record

for the next 12 years of my life. I would twitch, man. And it was like, I was the kid at school that had the twitch. But it would be like, that kid got hit by lightning. You know?

He's like, that's why he's got the twitch. So what would you do? Give me an example of the twitch. I was like, I don't know. Not that bad, but like, I can't even do it. Maybe if I do it, I might incite some muscle memory.

And it never comes back? It's never there now? Not really. I mean, you feel it a little bit, and you're like, no. No. Mental control, no. Oh, so you feel it coming on. You could give in.

It's like a sneeze. Yeah. I mean, I haven't felt it for a long time. Like I think I've been over the hump long enough where it just doesn't come back. Wow. You know. That's incredible. 12 years of twitching.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a pretty harrowing experience as a child. But in my recent years, I had a pretty crazy experience. It's almost like kind of hard to talk about. It's just one of those like weird deals. But, um, I was, uh, in, I was in Montana. I've got like a, I'm an outfitter. That's how I make my living is taking people on expeditions, hunting or whatever all over the world. And, uh, I've got a lodge based in Montana. And so we were building this, um, And I've got a lodge based in Montana.

And so we're building this outdoor shower bathroom thing because we do this big Fourth of July party every year, right? And so my place is right on the river and it's springtime. And it's one of the highest runoffs we've ever had. So the water is all spring runoff. and they measure rivers in cubic feet per second. So the river normally would say is like 300 CFS. This weekend, it was flowing at 3,000 CFS. So that's like the same size river, but that much water. I mean, it's just ripping.

And it's that kind of water where you put your hand in it, and it's ice cold. I mean, a lot like that glacial river that Steve crossed. hand in it and it's ice cold. Like, I mean a lot like that glacial river that Steve crossed. And, uh, so I'm out there building the thing and my family's helping me. And, uh, there'd been rafts going by kind of a little bit throughout the day. Cause it was a really nice day. It was father's day. And, um, I hear somebody yell. I was thinking, okay. So I walked to the edge of the river and I see all this shit floating down. I'm thinking, this is not good. Somebody must have turned their boat. And here comes this lady floating face up.

And she just locks eyes with me and she says, help me, help me. I'm like, oh shit. By this time, my mom had run up to the river too. And I take my cell phone and my wallet out of my pocket. I throw it to my mom and I yell to her, call 911. And the lady, I yelled to her, I said, kick to shore, you know? And I'm going to, and she's just like looking at me, help me, help me. And she's floating down the river pretty quick. Well, she hits a current and takes off, you know, in the background, my mom's screaming, don't go in the river, don't go in the river.

And, um, she hits the current and I just start running. And to this day, I do not remember, like, I've walked through that area a lot of times. I don't know how I ran so fast. Like, I don't remember, like in, when it was all over, I don't remember running. I just remember being at the end of, there's like this, I mean, trees and shit falling everywhere. And I don't know how I ran through it so fast but i ended up hitting the highway and running down the highway and there's this corner where the river banks and there's a big cliff on one side and then it makes this giant rapid there well i see her and she goes under the rapid and at this point i hit the highway and this truck had pulled off and i um i yelled to the guy i uh, she pops up and she's coming close to the

shore now. And I yelled to this guy who's standing there. I say, grab her. Cause you just popped up. Well, he reaches out and it was like, I don't know if he freaked out or what, like he grabs and just misses her. And at this point I'm like, Oh shit. You know, I mean, she was just alive and, uh, she's, she's hitting the fast water again and i just jumped in and uh so i jump in and i i'm in the river with her and you know like my thought when i jumped in was i'm not getting out of this it was like the weirdest weirdest deal ever so i jump in and i grab her foot when i grab her foot she goes under um so i kind of have to scoop her up under the water,

and I start floating down the river with her, holding her up. And I catch the rocks, and I just, luckily I was wearing my hunting boots that day. They were like, you know, tall hunting boots, like nine-inch boots. And I think that's the only reason I got out of the river, because it made my ankles stiff enough I could catch the rocks on the bottom. And then I drug her up on shore and I, I tried not to move her, you know, cause I didn't know if she had a broken neck or what. Um, so I, I get her up to the shore and I, um, I checked, you know, my first responder,

you know, so I do all this stuff and, uh, I, um, check to make sure she's breathing or whatever. She, there's like not really any signs of life, but her eyes are open. And she's got a little bit of breath, tiny pulse. So I just kind of like look at her. It's like you're looking at her, but nobody's home. So I just grab her by the face and yell, look at me, look at me, look at me. And about after 10 times of yelling it, it's like all of a sudden, boom, someone comes to. She takes a breath and is like, okay.

I tell the other guy, go grab some blankets and stuff wrap her up and she looks at me and she says where's Dave where's Dave I'm like you know I don't know who's Dave you know I mean by this time a lot of times past I turn around and on the bottom of the river is this guy all his clothes are ripped off and he's going down the river head first on the opposite side of the river i go shit he's dead dead you know he'd been five minutes behind her maybe and uh so at this point it's like you know i i just like i didn't really you know i mean here's an able-bodied person that was completely screwed you know like in the river, completely

screwed, you know, what's the mean that I like, I have no special skillset that they don't have to get myself out of this, you know, just maybe a little bit of luck. Um, you know, I went in for her, but you know, I mean, I, I obviously knew this guy was gone. So I threw something like floated over the top of him. Cause everything kind of floats at a constant rate. We ended up pulling him out of the river two and a half miles down. He had died, obviously, which, you know, it's like, it's a really horrible experience. The lady called me back the next day, you know, because she just lost her husband. It was Father's Day. And, yeah, I mean, it's like, you're like, okay.

And then, you know know you're going through all these weird emotions like i just jumped in a river and like didn't think i was coming out of it and like the emotional shit that you go through you know it's like really a weird deal and then so she called and said i just want to hear your story and then i wanted to tell you my story you know because it's like i don't know you just like i feel this connection with this lady now you know and so she tells me her story and she says they were floating down the river. They hit this back eddy. The raft got, there was a log that fell across the river. The raft gets sucked under the log and spits them both up, you know, out, you know, everything's gone. They're

floating down the river. They weren't wearing any life vests and they were holding hands floating down the river he says i love you and then just disappears can you imagine that so she says she tells me and it must have been at some point after i saw her when she went under the water she said that um it was the most peaceful feeling she'd ever felt she She said it was like everything was white. She says she knows her husband didn't suffer. She's like, it was like she, and then she heard this voice like way off in the distance and just like latched onto it and then came to. And so the doctors told her that even five more seconds in the water, she would have been dead. Her body had completely given up.

And they said that it was like this weird response. I just started yelling at her. I don't know why. Like, I just, it was like it felt like the right thing to do. And they said, like, that voice, like, gave her something to latch on to and, like, let her body know that it's okay. Like, you know, it was really weird. Wow.

Holy shit. Yeah yeah that's crazy yeah that is uh that's what you risk when you go rafting right yeah it's these people exciting they were professionals too i mean this this guy is they were this is what they did for a living they were professionals wow just like so they weren't just tourists no they weren't tourists they were they were scouting it out before they took clients there oh my god yeah rivers will fuck you up why didn't they have life vests on you know i mean you just like it's kind of like any professional you get into a certain mindset where you get you get too comfortable and like i i've been guilty of it you know i mean we all have in some respect, you know? It's like you ever take a motorcycle down the street without a helmet,

you know, or what, you know, just. Just think you can get away with it. Yeah. Did we wear them in Montana? Life vest? No, but the water was fucking six inches deep. We kept bottoming out. Yeah.

Dude, that water was not killing me. If I fell in that water, I was getting to the shore. That wasn't that fast. It wasn't that dangerous. It wasn't that spooky. That didn't bother me. But if we were encountering some rapids, I would have definitely wanted one. But that water would have sucked if we fell in.

But most of it was waist height. Yeah. We would have been fine. But if we were in some serious, I would have been shitting my pants, son. Yeah. I don't really like water and me don't really mix sometimes. And that's why crossing the thing with Steve is like oh shit this looks a little hairy. It brought up bad memories.

I'm not comfortable in water either. My scariest wilderness thing was in the ocean with sharks. Like I've been charged by bears. We've had that moose. I've had all kinds of shit happen.

When have you been charged by bears? Well on Meat Eater. Oh like the caribou one with Tim Ferriss? Is that one? No, no. We got charged this last fall. Jesus fucking Christ.

Another one? No, yeah. You'll hear about it Friday one? No, no. We got charged this last fall. Jesus fucking Christ! Another one? No, yeah. You'll hear about it Friday with Steve for sure, but yeah, we got charged. We got by a mom grizz and three cubs. Oh, that's right. You guys told me about that in Wisconsin. She tracked us down and charged us. Oh, tracked you down and charged you. Fucking Christ. But

last year, I was in Mexico with my brother spearfishing, and they had two bull sharks come after us very briefly. We speared some fish. The fish were about five feet away coming in. These two monstrous fucking sharks come out of the depths and just, like, coming right at me. And there was no reaction because, A, I'm not comfortable underwater. B, what the fuck are you going to do? I was, like, 15 feet under.

I was, like, on a dive. I was just kind of, like, suspended. And it was just the most completely, everything stopped. Actually with the bears, everything stopped too, but I felt like I still had some sort of presence and control. But with the sharks, it's just like, where do you go?

We were around a bunch of armed people on the ground when the bear rushed. Everyone had rifles. Yeah, but you know what's interesting is that didn't bring any peace. It's just like this extra thing that happens, this sort of extra sensory thing, I think, where it's that blissful moment of nothing. And it's happened a few times in the woods

when shit really goes down. The shark was a little different because it wasn't enjoyable. The bear was somehow enjoyable. I've had a situation way previous where a kid went into anaphylactic shock. I used to lead trips for teens, basically fucked up teens in the wilderness. And had one time a kid went into anaphylactic shock and couldn't breathe. I threw him over my shoulder, carried him through the desert a ways, jabbed him with an EpiPen.

And I remember coming out of that experience, just kind of like you said, the sort of, you just go into this sort of weird connection with what's happening, but you also like how you couldn't remember how you ran through that thing. I can't remember what happened for two minutes, but I brought this kid back, like revived him. And that feeling of nothing is something I've in a way sort of been chasing since which is just like this pure action without thought this like beautiful slow motion almost nothingness and yet everything is like happening so fucking quickly it's amazing but the sharks that didn't happen that was just shitting my pants that's a fascinating thing because in such an extreme situation, you're almost forced to abandon all your extra thinking and all your contemplation, worry, this, that, and the other thing.

And it becomes you're just a pure organism trying to exist and stay existing. And you're riding 100% on instinct and a bear is looking at you. It's a peak experience. You're reacting, reacting, reacting. It is a perfectly peak experience, man. Do you think people get addicted to that? Are you addicted to it?, reacting. It is a perfectly peak experience, man. Do you think people get addicted to that? Yeah, for a time.

Are you addicted to it? Yeah, fuck yeah. Are you addicted to it? No, I don't think so. I think on a light level, like I'll put myself around it maybe, but no, I don't,

you know, I don't need to jump off shit. I don't need to climb the highest mountains, but like the animal stuff and getting that close, like that is something that I really,

really fucking dig and I have in common with Remy and Steve. It's just like that experience something that I really, really fucking dig and I have in common with Rami and Steve. It's just like that experience to me is priceless. Well, I'll tell you one thing that was really unusual to me about going to Montana and hunting when I killed that deer. This is the unexpected aspect of it. It was almost psychedelic. It's almost like you're in this weird world

that's not your world, and there's a being in there that exists there all the time, and then all of a sudden, it's almost like an illusion or a hallucination. It's very strange when you're in their world, and you pluck one of them out of there and drag it away,

and it's like, what did we just do? For sure, man. You're just a wild animal. There's a huge connection in cultures between hunters and psychedelics. Like the journeys you take on psychedelics, I think, there's a clear connection between. I'm just agreeing with you that the hunting experience, that sort of intensity or that sort of connection with the natural state

is so not what we're in every day here that you come away from it different well that's one of the things i i'm endlessly thankful to you guys about is that experience in montana because the what you guys picked wasn't like wisconsin where when we were wisconsin there was a road that was only a mile away and there was a house and it was like you know it's a farm it's it's it. It's sort of wild, but not really. It's a bunch of weird animals that hang around the farm that you can eat. They're farm animals, kind of, but you've got to shoot them. I thank you for that moment where you finished off that deer.

I think you brought to our show, I think you brought to the public, the most sort of poignant moment of what it means to take a life and to kill something in the wild like that like your face when you kill that animal you look at it you're frozen and then you breathe out heavily that is it you told the story we've been trying to tell and have been telling over and over perfectly wow well you know it was just 100% the raw experience. And what I was going to say is thank you guys for introducing me to such a wild adventure. It was completely wild.

No cell phones. There was no internet. There was no humans. What did we see? We were there for how many days? Five days. Did we see five people? Maybe.

Maybe. Three, I think. Three people on boats that were going down the same river. It was their world. And we just sort of found our way into their world and just it was very psychedelic very it's a trip it's it's a totally a trip to go into the wilderness like that and you I so my career before I was in TV is I took people into wilderness for the first time that's what I did and you frame it the same way well tell this story, because it wasn't just that. You actually did it with troubled kids, which I found really fascinating.

Yeah, I did that for about five years out of college, both for private pay companies where families were just unhappy with how their teens were acting, and then also for state correctional facilities. So those are the ones I had the most fun in probably were the state ones. So every 21 days I'd go down around to Minnesota's different juvenile detention centers, pick up 10 kids from the hood and drive them out to the wilderness for 21 days and do these big, in the winter we would do cross-country ski treks, in the summer we'd canoe,

in the shoulder seasons we would hike. And just uh just the most badass way to spend my time i did that for a long time and you had a good success in kind of getting to these kids because of that of yanking them out of their world and putting them something completely different giving them this this alternate perspective of being in the wild that just sort of like makes them like what is the life i'm living is the life i'm living just something i'm used to this is not the only option. There's a lot of weirdness out there to this earth. Absolutely.

They always left with something valuable. They always left with something that they would look at and look at things in their normal life differently. Did it pull all the kids away from their habits and shit? No. But was it a worthwhile thing? Fuck yeah. As an alternative to staying in prison or in jail it's like the alternative sentence to my 21 day program was maybe six weeks in the juvie detention center fuck that

you know like right come out in the woods and learn how to do shit be responsible for yourself be treated respectfully learn about nature get some fresh air like get in shape like that's that's good no matter 21 days too like even if you're in a crew or whatever man if you don't have the modern conveniences the importance of self-reliance is like you can teach yourself so you're your best teacher man you know i mean the idea of giving these kids some kind of self-reliance where they are in charge of themselves in this situation and they have to use their brains and their whatever and pay attention.

And like, I don't see how that could be beneficial. Yeah. How it could not be. Yeah. I, I found it just beneficial just to be away from people, just to be away from the city,

just to be away from cars, just to be away from planes flying overhead. It's natural yeah that's not our bodies are you know accustomed to after hundreds of thousands of years yeah it's weird the air is different everything's different you feel different when you're not inundated with radio signals and TV signals and Wi-Fi sounds like horse shit yeah but it feels the fucking the quiet feels different out there. It's a different quiet. It's hard to explain to people that haven't experienced it too.

You know, I mean, it's one of those things like, if you don't know, you gotta, you can't really explain it. You can say it, but you know,

you don't really get it until you've done it. Which is why it feels like psychedelics. It's kind of the same type of thing. Once you've done it, then you can talk about it. But if you're talking to somebody who hasn't done it,

then it's sort of a, it's just a different way of experiencing things. And you can share it, which is what's really cool it's fun to share with you and brian and fun to share with all the people i've taken out in the woods is that that forms a bond you know very quickly in a very strong way i mean our wolf pack on the apex show just the hunting shows you know it different. Something about that affects your relationships with the people you're out there with. It's good for you.

A hundred percent. I think any time you've gone through something with someone that's really intense, it's just your bond, your connection, your understanding of each other and the world that you live in is very unique. There's something specific about dudes, I think, that need that or crave that. I worked with young men mostly, pretty much, probably 95%. And I think that's a huge thing lacking in our culture is just that experience. And I think it's what we need.

We need to do that. Well, it's certainly a part of who we used to be. And I think tapping into that a lot of times can give people a sense of satisfaction that this doesn't exist in the modern manufactured world that we live in of cubicles and nine to fives and alarm clocks and all the nonsense that we've come to accept as being life. It's not. And in fact, your body, your DNA itself, the epigenetics that shaped you as an individual are all based on ancestors that never went through anything even remotely close to what we're going through and when you do the stuff that they used to do you feel great that was happy

people that was what it was all about werner herzog's documentary it's about these guys there there's no mental illness no one's depressed they're having a great fucking time all they do is hunt and fish and trap that's it that's whole life. And we think that they're fucked up. But meanwhile, they live as long as us, and they die just like we die, but they're happy the fucking whole time, and we think they're losers. They live with an ease that you can't. I spent a lot of time in the jungle in South America and other places with indigenous people.

There is an ease with which they go through their day, with which they talk to each other, with which they eat their food, which is just like, it's... You know, I went there pretty young to South American side. I was like, holy shit, I want that. I want to be around that. I want to see what the fuck that is. I want to, like, you know, spend some time and just see what...

Because it's different, man. It's just like we have this, like, uptight... Even the most relaxed of us here in America have this sort of uptight thing. I got it fucking bad. It seems like a lot of people are just worried about uncertainty or, and then they get in these patterns because it's certain. You know what I mean? It's like, what's going to happen with the stock market?

What's going to happen with my 401k? So they'd be getting these like, we're such a patternable species. I mean, like I've seen, you know, I've been to a lot of countries. I spent a lot of time just like in the bush just watching animals. And certain animals have patterns because it's comfortable. It's like predictable. You know what I mean? And there's no more patternable species than humans.

I mean, we just we are like clockwork. You know, it's because we don't like that uncertainty. And then, you know, you throw yourself in a situation where every day it's uncertain it's whatever it's different and it's just like it's you get out of that you're happy you feel good you know like I've been doing the solo hunter show and that a lot of that comes out of my thing has always been just it started out as I didn't have anybody to go hunting with. So I would just go out in the woods by myself. And I think my longest trip was almost a month just in the wild alone.

Jesus Christ. You know, and it's like. Where'd you go? Nevada Wilderness. Wow. Yeah, I think like Nevada I think is the most untouched place in the lower 48. I thought you were going to say circus, circus. Yeah.

I was on the Vegas strip between the palms. I ate some acid. The hunter tops left behind. Went hunting for 30 days. But, you know, it was like just short of a month. And, you know, I think in that, it was like a lot of uncertainty, a lot of everything was unpredictable, but you're 100% relying on yourself, which is just like this great, you're happy. But I think the other thing about it too is a lot of people don't like being alone. I don't know if you just don't like yourself or you just aren't familiar with yourself.

I think people are running away from a lot of the issues that they have in their life. And one of the ways that people run away is by keeping themselves busy or keeping themselves distracted. So I think some people just don't like being alone because then they're like, okay, well, here I am. And, well, maybe we should just fucking think about who we are here while we're sitting here. It doesn't take long and you have to do that. I don't really like me. Turns out I think I'm kind of a fucking idiot. me yeah turns out i think i'm kind of a fucking idiot and then it's also the forced re-evaluation of the momentum that your life has taken on which is also uncomfortable because it doesn't seem like

you can stop it and it's also you know it's so much of who you are and it's why so many people that live like terrible lives defend and embrace that life because they don't want to admit they've fucked up yeah they don't want to admit that they've probably been living their life on the momentum of this really shitty decision that they made when they were 18. Let's pick their college major

or whatever it was. And I like what you said about the patterns too because eliminating a lot of the fear and uncertainty is a lot of what people do and it's a lot of why

people get good jobs. I'm just going to get a good job that pays good. I got dental and, you know, and then I don't have to worry about that anymore. But in doing that, you kill all the fucking wild, crazy fun of life. You don't have those experiences, man. You eliminate experience from life. I wouldn't recommend you jumping in the river and saving people, but I think you jumping in the river and saving that woman probably elevated you as a human being.

Oh, yeah. Fuck, yeah. I mean, that day changed my life, you know? I couldn't imagine it not. You just look at everything different. You're like, okay, at that given point, I mean, it was almost like if I did. It was a weird feeling, man. It's like saying like, I guess I don't care if I live or die almost, but you do, you know? It's like it's a weird feeling, man. It's like saying like, um, I guess I don't care if I live or die almost, but you do, you know, it's like, it's a weird feeling. And then, so you live the rest of

the day is like, man, good thing I made it out of that river. You know, I'm going to really do something cool this year. You know, that's part, I think that's the addiction, the addiction to that thing. So in that moment, when the bear is charging you, it's that uncertainty, the idea of uncertainty, but it's so fucking narrow. It's like compressed into this perfect moment. Like you are going to die or you're not going to die

and you're not certain of it, but it's so fucking acute. Cops get that, I think. Yeah. I can imagine, you know. I mean, if somebody's shooting at you, like that kind of,

it's like I'm going to work every day, but are they really just going to work or, you know, I mean, that kind of shooting at you, it's like, I'm going to work every day, but are they really just going to work? You know, I mean, that kind of job where you're in the line of uncertainty and danger. Yeah. I had a friend who was a cop when I lived in Boston, and he was in a fairly safe area, but he was getting transferred. And he asked to get transferred to a bad neighborhood. And I go, why are you doing that?

And he goes, more action. And I go, more action? He goes, yeah. goes, more action. And I go, more action? He goes, yeah. He goes, I'm bored. I go, so you want to go where the crime is? He goes, that's why I'm a cop. I'm like, well, you should be a cop then, fella. Fucking got the right mindset.

But he would talk very similarly about it, about that he appreciates the good aspects of his life because of the bad aspects of the things that he sees every day. Yeah. Because of the thrill and the danger of, you know, not, you know, you fucking kick down a door and you're locked and loaded. Who knows what the fuck is going to happen? Yeah. You know, who knows? Who knows what's going to happen?

When you get out of that and you're okay, ooh, the fucking lemonade tastes sweeter. Yeah, it's like you get this adrenaline rush man i you know i mean i've had a lot of other experiences maybe not as extreme as that but you know a lot of other experiences and every time it's like that rush of adrenaline it's like okay well i survived unscathed like checking your body like unscathed right on let's do this again guys you know well we made it we're fine let's one more time one more time around but what about wild animals what's the the creepiest wild animal encounter you've ever had uh you know i had a bear um i i was guiding this one guy in uh new mexico and i parked this i bought this brand new four-wheeler and

Parked it and we do this hike and we're sitting there like looking for elk And I hear something by me. I gotta like turn around look behind my shoulder Here's this bear standing all fours like right there. Okay, so how far away? 10 feet brown bear black black bear. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you I mean, black bear is like, I'm not really afraid of bears. It's not like something that I, you know, I mean, like when I'm in grizzly country, I like pay attention, you know. But it's not like something that keeps me awake at night. But, you know, this bear kind of comes around and I'm like, okay, this is, you know, I mean, he's close. He's like kind of inquisitive.

The guy that's with me is like, you have a bear tag, right? I was like, yeah. He's like, shoot it. I was like, oh, I'm not going to shoot this bear um but i was like if it does something you know i'll shoot it you know it's like take my pistol out of my holster and i'm standing on this rock and the bear looks up and i like stick the gun out and he like just looks at me like okay and then walks off he's like oh that's pretty cool so the guy hands me his rifle and he's like just in case it comes back i was like do you want to come back he's like, oh, that's pretty cool. It's the guy hands me his rifle He's like just in case it comes back. I was like, do you want to come back? He's like, no, I don't know so I make this dying rabbit noise Charging in

This bear comes charging in I throw the gun up and as soon as I throw the gun up the bear wheels around goes off all right, that's cool, so we go back and hike up to the four-wheeler and I look and the bear what had done is it got into this dude's pack and he left his pack on the four-wheeler tore the pack up and then followed our tracks down to us looking for food you know so I'm laughing at him like I your pack got ripped up i told you not to leave it there you're an idiot and uh he's kind of getting pissed like that i'm thinking this is funny and i get to my brand new four-wheeler bear tore the seat in half and was clawing and ripped it ripped

so much that it tore the key out of the four-wheeler and so we couldn't find the four-wheeler key and it ended up just i mean we're like on our hands and knees with flashlights where is this damn key like a long ways away from where we started ended up finding the key but when i lived in colorado a bear got into this lady's car opened up the door of her car and ate her car i mean fucking ate they have pictures of it on the website they love the website they ate well it wasn't even leather i think it was vinyl vinyl. Really? The bear ate the fucking dashboard. The bear ate the dashboard. Bear ate the seats. It ate everything.

Just mangled the inside of the car. Was it a new car? I don't think so. They like that new car smell. It's like bear meat. They also like shit. I had a buddy who was like a back country ranger in the Boundary Waters wilderness in Minnesota. It's a big ass million acre wilderness.

There's latrines in all the campsites. And he'd have to go around and fix latrines, like, every spring. After the shit came unfrozen, the bears would fucking crawl down in there and eat the shit. Eat all the human feces and all the toilet paper. Oh, in the blue water? Did it have blue water? No, that's natural. No blue water.

Natural shit and water. The bears would eat the shit. What the fuck, bears? Jesus Christ. It seems like they, if they, that's a weird thing, too, about watching hunting shows, is that if bears are eating the right thing, they're delicious. Yeah. But if they're eating the wrong thing, they're nasty. You are what you eat.

Literally. Literally. Yeah. When you catch a bear, or if you shoot a bear, rather, and the bear's been eating blueberries, that's the most delicious? That's what I've been told. It's fantastic. I've never had a blueberry bear.

It's fantastic. You actually cut it open. You gut the bear. You can smell it. You can see it in the blood. You can see it in the fat. You see it in the fat. The fat's kind of blue, right?

It's dark. It smells like it. Wow. And it's delicious. You see it in the flesh of the animal. It changes the color of the flesh of the animal. I guess I can't say conclusively I'd want to see another bear next to it that didn't have it. Maybe it's somewhat in our heads. But certainly the fat.

Absolutely. Yeah, it looked like it. I watched that one episode in Alaska. Is that where you guys were? We've done one in British Columbia that it was feeding on blueberries and one in Alaska too. Wow. There are some amazing animals out there though. I saw a golden eagle

go after some bighighorn sheep like swooping on deer size like the babies you know and then i've also seen them knock uh a mountain goat off a cliff you saw it yeah yeah where was that that was in montana they so it this one it didn't kill it but what they'll do is like it knocked it off but then it got its feet and it was okay but um what they'll do is they'll like they're the number one predators these mountain ghosts and they'll just grab them on the back and huck them off a cliff they go down and eat them it's like holy cow that's an episode that's brutal i've seen that it's crazy do it hand gliding yeah yeah look at it here it goes right here look at this there you go look at this. Here it goes right here. Look at this. There you go. Look at this. Yeah, I've seen that. Oh, that's so gangster. That's a Himalayan tar right there, I think.

That is so goddamn gangster. Look at it. It just pulled it off the mountain and just bashed it against the rocks. It's insane. It's so crazy. This year. They figured that out, too. They're so big.

That's kind of like a tool. That's almost like as intelligent as using tools. Yeah. Birds amaze me, man. Oh, yeah. Like ravens. Have you seen this video? There's these ravens that figure it out to drop nuts in front of traffic,

and then they go down when the lights change and pick them up so the cars break the nuts. Yeah. It's crazy. Have you ever seen the one where the raven figures out the use of tools? Not just a primary tool, but a secondary tool? They use a secondary tool to get the primary tool, and then use the primary tool to get meat out of a puzzle. Really?

Oh, my God. Pull it up. Yeah, I've got to see this. Raven's Solve Complex Puzzle. See if you can find it. Because it's one of those things that shocked the scientists when they put it on, when they put the experiment on. They couldn't believe how fast these ravens could figure it out.

I mean, it was unbelievable. Well, that's coming. Let me see if I can find it. Let's see. Yes, this is one of them. This is one of several. So what they figured out is they get this stick Look at this

And they use this stick to get a second stick No way They figured it out Instantly And then they use that, now they get the second stick So he's got the second stick Now he uses the second stick to get something else Look

They try to get a third stick I mean it's fucking mind blowing man Look at that, they try to get a third stick. I mean, it's fucking mind-blowing, man. Look at that. And he's got a third stick. And she uses the third stick to get whatever the fuck she was trying to get. She's trying to get some food. That's awesome.

And if she can't figure that out, then she'll go and try a fourth and a fifth stick. Look at that. She got her food. That's nuts, man. And they figured it out within seconds. I don't even think most people would figure that out. No, I would starve to death. I would starve to death. Look at this fucking raven, this sneaky bastard.

I had a steak that was frozen, and I was trying to thaw it out. So I said, maybe it would be better if I put it out in the sun. And I put it out in the sun in my backyard for 30 seconds. And I came back, and a raven was eating it. Just gone. I was like, no, he didn't eat the whole thing, but he picked some pieces out in the sun in my backyard for 30 seconds. And I came back and a raven was eating it. Just gone. I was like, no, he didn't eat the whole thing, but he picked like some pieces out of the steak. And I was like, you creepy prick.

Like you're spying on me. Like you're watching me. He realized that I came out and I put that steak down. He's like, oh, look at this stupid fuck. He went in the house. What? Like immediately, like he's probably peering, watching from the trees, thinking about what I'm doing.

Like look at this dopey bitch. He's probably following you in your car every day now. I keep telling this story about an octopus that I need to figure out if it's legit and true or not. But supposedly it was in a scientific laboratory. On one side of the room there was a tank with octopus in it. The other side of the room was a tank with fish in it. Both tanks had lids on them. The octopus at night, the fish kept disappearing.

And they're like, what the fuck happened to the fish? So the octopus would take the lid off their tank, crawl out, crawl across from them, take the lid off the other tank, grab a fish, put the lid back on, crawl back, put their own lid on? Yes. Yeah, that was real. Is that real? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That is real. It's a video. Is there a video? Yeah. I don't know if there's a video. Yeah, there is. There's a video. There's a video?

Well, there's definitely a video of octopuses climbing out. Look, there's one right there of an octopus walking on the ground or crawling or whatever the fuck you would call that, squirming on the ground. And they can move across the wall. Do they have predators? Anything kill octopus? Yeah. But octopus kill sharks. That's what's fucked up.

There was another video that they took from an aquarium, from a large aquarium. And they were trying to figure out why these sharks were missing. Like, what the fuck is going on? So they set up a camera, and they were worried when they introduced sharks that the octopus would become food for the sharks. But it's totally the opposite. The sharks are swimming along, and the octopus, look at this, out of nowhere leaps on this shark and just fucking jacks him.

Look, here's a shark like, I'm the baddest motherfucker in this tank. What are you bitches going to do about that? And this thing that looks like a rock is just sitting there waiting for his opportunity to fuck up a shark. And as the shark gets too close, it leaps out of nowhere and grabs a hold of him. Check this out. Swat! Bitch, get over here! Wraps him up, makes him useless, and just starts eating. Yeah, I think once sharks, they have to keep moving. Sharks always have to be swimming, you know?

So that octopus just turns him upside down, puts him in a submission hold. That shark's done. Isn't it interesting how nature balances itself out? It's like, yeah, it makes it so sharks are awesome and they have big, giant teeth, but let's throw a little monkey wrench in, and you can't sleep, and you have to keep moving, and if you pause, giant teeth. But let's throw a little monkey wrench in and you can't sleep and you have to keep moving. And if you pause, you die. How about that? You know, like people.

Oh, okay, you're going to be figuring out cars and guns and all that. But let's make your skin so that, like, you could kind of pinch your way through it. And then you pull parts out and you bleed out and you just die real easy. I had this unique experience this year i was out um i'm just looking around and i see this these bear tracks in the snow so i'm like okay this is so i'm actually out there just taking pictures of these bear tracks they froze in the ice so it was like a really cool looking track. And I'm just like on the road and Buddy's with me. And he's like, I get in the truck and he's like, there's the bear.

I'm like, what? And I look up, you know, and it's like 30, 40 feet away from the truck. So I'm like, yeah, okay. And it's like I've never seen, like bears always run away. I've never seen a bear do that. And it walks off below the road and I'm like, there's something weird with this with this bear right so we get out of the truck and i look and it's like below the road so i sneak up and just start petting the bear on the ass my buddy's filming it with his iphone right where's i'm petting this i i've got i've got to get it from him

so i'm petting this live bear right and just like i'm just like hey bear and just like talking to this bear that story in your pocket i know well this happened this year and so i'm just like hey bear and just like talking to this bear that story in your pocket i know well this happened this year and so i'm petting this bear and then the bear looks back at me and he's like looking at me and i'm like there's like i thought it was like wounded or something i'm not really sure what's going on with the bear his eyes are red the bear's blind just a blind bear it's like never seen that so the bear like it's like having trouble moving around we're thinking like i don't know has this bear been shot or like whatever so then we're watching this bear and i'm videoing it and the bear walks up hits its head on a tree

walks in a circle hits its head on a tree again 100 blind wow yeah so we're like and these these two other guys that were with me and both of them are vets and they're like freaking out like oh that bear's suffering you know what can we do you know and it's like as humans we we feel sorry for things you know we feel sorry for but you know like looking at it like that bear didn't feel sorry for itself it's just nature it was an old bear and uh you know it's just that's what happens when bears get old they go blind and they starve to death and die you know but i mean it was like crazy to see how this bear was just like at the end it was probably a 30 year old bear did you watch uh the last episode of meat eater which um last thursday what was the spring bear yeah

it was one where um no i didn't see that one steve went bear hunting and had a lock on a bear and just decided he didn't want to shoot it i just decided uh you know he did it twice he did two times in the episode he's like you know what i don't i don't need to shoot this bear. Well, here's the thing. People that don't hunt don't get it necessarily. I love animals. It's almost hard for me to believe how someone else that doesn't spend as much time in nature loves animals like I do. Because I'm around them all the time. I don't want to see these animals disappear. It's like people think, oh, you're just out there to kill these animals.

No, that's not it. disappear it's like people think oh you're just out there to kill these animals no that's not it like um i think you know like hunters have words and then everybody else has these words that don't mean the same thing as us like hunters have this word like trophy hunting or whatever where they're looking for a large animal but for me like it doesn't mean that i'm not eating it or whatever people have this different word for it than i do like Like when I was when I said I was hunting for 30 days, I could have killed probably 100 different deer and chose not to I did not kill a deer on that trip. And why I was looking for a big one, but not because it was big, because it was a challenge for me to hunt the most mature animal, right. And it made me be out there longer, it put

my skills instead of against any deer against one deer. And in that certain scenario, I failed. I was actually hunting one particular year. I ended up hunting that deer for three years. I never got that deer. I never did. You know, I probably put in three months of time and scouting. I saw him only twice in those three months and was hunting one particular deer because it was huge. And to me, it was like the challenge of it. And I got to be in nature. I mean, I know more about those deer now. I would sit there and watch them study their patterns, like where they would go, what their bachelor groups were just like any nature channel,

whatever. And for me, I love those deer. Like I don't want to see those deer disappear. I don't want to see their habitat being infringed upon. I don't want to see those deer disappear i don't want to see their habitat being infringed upon i don't want to see like you know it's not about killing these deer it's about being a part of this system and prolonging it like being out there hunting and enjoying it and just you know doing my thing yeah people who have never experienced it probably don't understand why it's so fascinating and wonderful when you're out there. But it is regardless. I would suggest to those people to keep an eye out for our British Columbia grizzly episodes coming up. Because that was an experience of us sitting on these beautiful ridgetops watching grizzly bears for almost two weeks. Of just like, and that observation is just like Remy's saying.

It's just something like, something changes how you feel about the animals, how you feel about the land, and how you feel about your interaction out there. It's pretty magical just to be there. Well, when we were in Montana, I felt that way about the sheep because we weren't going to hunt them, but they were everywhere. We saw a lot of them. And we sat many times. We spent hours just sitting there watching these sheep crawl up the side of this mountain kind of freaking out like look at how they do that they're just crawling up this cliff oh yeah the fuck are they doing that it's and since we weren't hunting

them they just became objects of wilderness fascination you know they weren't like it wasn't like the same like quick heartbeated thing like oh there's a deer you know there wasn't like the same quick heart-beated thing. Like, oh, there's a deer. There's a deer. There's a deer. There wasn't any of that. It was just like, look at these crazy fucks with their giant balls. Remember, Steve? Fucking giant balls. Steve, there's a video. Pull the video up because I've got to take a leak of Steve talking about bighorn sheep balls. It's on his YouTube channel where he has a goal of shooting one of those and then eating their balls.

Like, right away. Pull it up if you can. But yeah, just being out there. And I remember we found mountain lion shit too. That was pretty fascinating. We found this big rope of shit with deer hair in it. And it was like, ooh. Yeah.

Like this is out here too, huh? Do you have any draw for bear? To hunt a bear? Does that attract you at all? Only one that I would eat. I wouldn't want to hunt a grizzly bear unless I could eat it. I've heard conflicting stories about whether or not you can eat a grizzly bear. I watched an episode of one show where they ate bear steak.

It was a brown bear, and they said it was good. Which show? Do you know which show that was? That was Alaska, The Last Frontier. The guy shot a bear that was eating their cows and uh wound up uh cooking it and eating it and had a little campfire and just eating the bear steak what is it did you have grizzly i've never eaten grizzly no i've never i mean i've never been grizzly hunting it's just not something i've done you know really like i've never been like a hunter, predator hunter kind of guy. I mean, I stick to a lot of deer and elk and stuff in New Zealand and stuff like that.

I mean, I've hunted bears. I gave you some bear salami. Yeah. It's really, I mean, you'll eat it. Like, anybody that eats that and says that's not good salami is crazy. Like, it's good. So you like bear. It's just not something you go after a lot. Yeah, it's not good salami is crazy like it's good yeah so you like bear it's just not something you you go after a lot yeah it's not uh it's not my thing there's guys that like

like it and hunt them and what's the difference between going after a predator and going after something that's a game animal does it get you sort of you feel like they're almost like a kin sometimes you know you just kind of feel like that like they're out there doing their thing like you are sometimes you know i mean i don't have anything against it you know it's not like i've bear hunted and it's been fun and exciting um and i obviously eat everything i shoot so um have you killed a lion mountain lion yeah i've killed a mountain lion that to me in the past almost three years now hunting constantly with steve has was the most, just like balls out fun experience I've had is chasing mountain lions

in the, we were in Arizona twice with dogs. I never thought I would enjoy it. I was actually kind of opposed to it to begin with. We never saw a lion.

We never killed a lion. We never did anything. But it was the most, like, I got fucking fired up. Isn't that crazy? You didn't see a lion. You didn't kill a lion.

But yet it was incredibly exciting. It was the dogs. Like watching hounds do their thing is just, it's like adrenaline all day long and it's just it's a beautiful it's beautiful these dogs are you think i wonder what their vo2 max would be like some of these dogs could run for fucking ever ever ever they're designed for that do you have that video yeah play it because i got. We'll be right back, folks. From the joint to the bone, these are the parts of the animal that harken back to the most original forms of cooking.

Hunt it, chop it up, and cook it. You really don't get more primal than a testicle in my mind. I would bring this down and share it with the guys that I'm cooking for, but it's just never going to go far enough. There's inevitably going to be guys that are real jealous they didn't get a slice guys that I'm cooking for, but it's just never gonna go far enough and there's inevitably gonna be guys that are real jealous that they didn't get a slice. So I'm just gonna eat it myself. It's gonna be kinda like the cooked spaghetti.

So that's the deer nut. Look for one that Joe Rogan is into with the sheep. The only way I've ever cooked these from game is in butter. So do like butter balls, butternut. Basically I'm just like poaching this thing in butter. And a little red hot. In Morocco? No, it was in Montana.

It was one of the trailers for when Joe and Brian came out to Montana first. Oh. Thought I had those ready. Yeah, one of those it's like something waxing poetic about sheep there it is did you get the wrong one?

there he goes there's another bigorn right up there. That's amazing. How many? What's that? There's a lot of sheep in here. When you go home and tell people what a bad spot I took you to, and you say, boy, we did see a lot of bighorns though, what they're going to say is something like, what kind

of dumbass hunts mule deer in Bighorn country? You've never seen a scrotum? You've seen a scrotum on a Bighorn ram. It's a sight to behold. I'd love to show you if you turned right. I'll look, sure. It's just, it's like a church bell. It's like a church bell hanging down between his legs.

Wow, what a cool looking animal. Yeah, they're sweet. Were you able to see that church bell? Yeah. It's impressive. Yeah, it's huge. If I ever draw a big one tag, the first thing I'm gonna do when I kill one, I'm going to punch my tag and I'm going to eat the contents of that sack.

Just straight up. Just... Raw? Just right there, like apples. Why? I don't know. I just feel called to do that. I'm sitting on a cactus.

It looks so nice out right there. It was so fucking cold, man. Cold as shit. It was so cold. I had cactus in my legs for three months. I did. It was a funny video of Callan plucking my legs. That's also on the same channel.

Plucking cactus out of my legs in front of the fire. When I sat down to shoot that deer, I must have got at least 50 or 60 cactus needles in my leg. It was crazy. They last forever. But it wasn't a bad last forever. It was like a welcome sign. Dan Doty, off to the can. Yeah, this is Brian Callen.

My leg out, and I mean he must have pulled, no BS, at least 50 of those things out of me. No, I mean this way. It looked like I had like little zits all over me for like a couple of weeks afterwards. It took a while for them to all pop through the skin. Like I'd be taking a shower and I'd wash and I'd feel like, it felt like stubble. But it was really just a cactus thorn that was stuck inside of me. I don't even feel that.

When your face is level to your friend's ass, and you're pulling quills out of his ass, that's a real friend. I have a new appreciation for his glute and upper thigh development. What was that movie where the guy sits on a cactus cactus and he thinks it's a rattlesnake? I don't know. And his buddy's like, you know, he's going to suck the venom out. Oh, wasn't that a Dan Aykroyd movie or something?

Oh, gosh. I can't remember. I don't remember. That's always the joke, right? Suck the venom out. Can you actually do that? It's not recommended. It's not, right?

No. I mean, I think you can actually do that yes should the normal person no it'd be a real extreme situation you'd prefer to like suck it out with something else but um because what what can happen is then the venom's in your mouth you know it can travel your bloodstream pretty easily through your mouth um if you don't do it right it is possible but um so what do you do't do it right it is possible but um what do you do how do you do it what i would suggest is like say you're in the middle of nowhere you get bit by a rattlesnake um first thing you're gonna do is like put the area you don't want to

blow your heart so you know i mean just kind of keep it like it's in your hand it's normally a leg or whatever um i would maybe make like a tourniquet, not super tight, but you know, I mean a little bit, and then you could, uh, use like some sterilize a knife or something, cut it open, um, heat like water in a metal bottle or something. Um, and then if you have like a, I kind of like this metal canteen or something or hot water poured into a Nalgene bottle, like boiling water, and then stick it up against it on the outside. And as that water cools, it creates like a Nalgene bottle, like boiling water, and then stick it up against it on the outside. And as that water cools, it creates like a suction and it'll actually like suck the blood

and the venom out. It's like a makeshift suction cup, you know? So do you cut the wound open? You can cut, I don't know. Sometimes they say don't do it. Sometimes, you know, they say don't, but I would, I mean. A lot of people say you just, you just dress dress in a wound and get where you need to go. Yeah, but we're talking like you can't get where you need to go.

Yeah. Then what do you do? It's not going to kill you. Rattlesnake's not going to kill you. But don't they do massive damage to your tissue? Yeah, my grandpa's the same grandpa, the crazy grandpa. He's been bit three times. Tell them the story of the gorilla suit on.

This is the craziest story. And, you know, some of these stories are like, is this true? But this has been confirmed by the dude who this happened to. He was a professional boxer and he thought he was pretty quick. I don't know what he'd do. He's like, I'm quicker than a snake.

So he gets hammered by a rattlesnake. I think he caught a rattlesnake he thought he killed it he put in a bucket and then it bit him so and he was i can't i don't remember where he's at so he he's uh gets bit by this rattlesnake so he's driving himself into the hospital he blacks out while he's driving runs through the front of a gas station right through the convenience store the whole deal and uh he breaks through the owner runs up he roll opens the door my grandpa rolls out of the truck holding a live rattlesnake there will be a movie made about your i like that it would be the the craziest movie.

You'd be like, there's no way any of this. And it's like, he was, that's what I'm getting at. When you live, like, in this wild life, a lot of crazy things happen. I mean, he's just one of those guys that just never, he just lived life, you know? And he just, shit just always happened. Like, he had so many crazy, I could go on for days about just some of the most unbelievable stories. You know, like that is awesome.

He just kept it floor the whole time. He just, he lived on the edge, you know, this one, one of my favorite stories is he went into a, a bar. I think it was up in Virginia city,

Nevada is like a bike, you know, like anyways, there was like this biker group that was in there kind of taking over the bar and kicking people out. Right. So he goes out, him and his buddy were in there kind of taking over the bar and kicking people out right so he goes out him and his buddy were in there he tells the buddy go warm up the truck the guy he said go warm up the truck park it at that corner right there he's standing there you know how bikers line up their motorcycles all along the edge he goes and kicks over one bicycle and kicks them

all over in domino fashion tells a guy walk walking and say, hey, somebody kicked your bikes over out there. And he's standing at the door. And as these dudes are running out, he's one hit and I'm knocking him out. He knocked about four of them out and ran to the truck. And drove off. They're just running into punches. I mean, he's just like a mountain man cowboy his whole life.

You know? It's refreshing to know that crazy assholes like that actually existed and did live that life. And then they have, like, grandkids like me, you know? Well, all things considered, you came out great. Exactly. That's a very unusual thing for a 28-year-old guy. 28-year-old guy to live his most you know a giant chunk of your life to be in the woods and living in the wilderness yeah it's definitely it's uh

one of those things i think like i graduated high school and i knew what i always i knew what i always loved and i was like i'm gonna make this my life and people are how you can do that i'm just gonna start doing it you know it's like i think after high school i remembered i actually graduated high school with like a lot of college credits so i was like well instead of go to school the fall semester i'm going to uh travel around and hunt as much as i can and then i'll write a book okay did you write a book no still haven't wrote a book i'm still living it have you started at all you know i have i've started some stuff because i've got like a lot of, just like a lot of crazy things have happened. And so what I did was while I went to college, I would take six months off in the fall and work as a guide and hunt and travel and essentially do what I'm doing.

How far in advance are you booked for guide stuff? Almost two years. You're booked two years in advance? Yeah, almost. That's incredible. Like this year's full. Um, but almost two years. You're booked two years in advance? Yeah, almost.

Yeah, like this year's full. Next year, uh, next year we, um, you know, we've got openings like 2015, I guess we start booking now, you know? Wow. And then New Zealand stuff is kind of like, you can pretty much come whenever if you're, if you're like ready to go, you just go. So your, your guide stuff is a lot of repeat businesses, people that have been with you many, many times.

Yeah. They just book everything in advance. Exactly. And then what happens, because I've got so many like repeat guys you know i have other guides that work for me it's like a fairly good size operation um and then uh you know like repeats book every year but the new guys that want in they've got to go like a year or two out so they get all their buddies together and go a year or two out and so you get kind of like backlogged that way yeah wow that's wild

so that's that's actually a pretty fucking stable business um well yes and no because you got like a lot of at any given moment the regulations could change and i'd be out of business you know like you know how you i mean hunting is very very regulated and it should be i mean it's if you do it right it's the purpose of it is for conservation. And so, I mean, they're looking at numbers and tags and all this. And so at any moment where I do, my stuff could change. That's why, that's why I started doing things in New Zealand because every, all the animals in New Zealand are not supposed to be there. So environmentalists in America don't want any animals dead, you know. Environmentalists in New Zealand want all the non-native animals dead because they eat the native grasses and they aren't supposed to be there, this, that, and the

other thing, you know? So it's like, there's no regulation. Yeah. You guys killed a Canadian goose with a high powered rifle. Yeah. Which was delicious. I bet it was. But you know, I mean, you think about it, like Himalayan tar, just like, they're one of the coolest animals on the planet to me. And they just, the country they live in is so rough. And you know, New Zealand, the Southern Alps is almost identical to the Himalayas. Like that's where Sir Edmund Hillary trained was on Mount Cook in New Zealand for his first ascent to Everest. I mean, it's like where me and Steve went hunting in that episode that was in the Mount Cook area. I mean, we were hunting some of the roughest mountains in the world and you're hunting an animal that on its home range is almost gone and here there's like there's too many it's overpopulated wow that is fascinating yeah it's like a cool story no predator shoot cars in new

zealand i don't know we should tell that story i think we did i think steve told that story what happened somebody shot a car yeah on. No, no, no. Not somebody. Okay. Well, none of us, none of us professionals. This is like some other dude we hired, right, as a packer for that episode. And after we crossed the river, we sent him back, hiked back to the vehicles to charge batteries. And he's sitting in the car, like, fucking around with something.

And apparently he comes back, like, we're like, what happened to Ben, dude? We're back in the hut. Ben's like, Remy, I need to have a word. No, he opens the door. We're all in this little warming hut, and it's the most sheepish face that I could ever imagine. Peaks in and says, Remy, can I talk to you for a minute?

I was like, you didn't run the truck out of diesel, did you? No. But I need to have a word. Okay. So we go outside. He's like, you didn't run the truck out of diesel, did you? No. But I need to have a word. Okay. So we go outside. He's like, I don't know how to tell you this, man. I shot your car. He blew the fuel line.

Yeah. He severed the fuel line with a shotgun from inside. He was sitting in the driver's seat. He fired through the floor, blew the fuel line. We had to tow this truck. What was it, like 30 miles? 30 miles down a riverbed. No roads, yeah. No roads.

We had two river crossings where the truck is tied to the truck in front, just dragging across a river where the water's like flowing over the truck. And so, I mean, here's the thing. The dude was Australian. I mean, I like the guy. He's a friend. But Aussies don't have semi-automatic weapons, and he thought it would be try to figure out how it works

oops in a truck with a loaded gun he didn't obviously it was an accident he didn't know it was loaded his ears were ringing it was scary when it comes to firearm safety or any kind of safety like that

I am the biggest stickler on the planet because you don't get second chances with that kind of stuff like it's not something to mess around with and any real like any hunter any gun owner knows that that's key like you don't mess around with guns it's 100 the law you know in you in my mind in my friend's mind and everybody else's mind but he was by himself he was just kind of bored and messing around like what's this do what's this button do huh what's this do oh okay boom oh yeah i don't even know how the fuck you could have done that yeah it makes no sense i'm just trying to play it over and over again but let me let me tell you like the australian jokes that were flying after like oh yeah aussies are so good at shooting they they can hit a truck while it's running, you know?

Now, you guys in the New Zealand one, you hunted tar. You hunted, what was the animal, a chamois? A chamois, yeah. Is that the same stuff that chamois cloth is made of? Yeah, that is, yeah. Why does it absorb water like that? Like chamois cloths they use to clean a car? Yeah, it's the leather.

It's just absorbent. It just soaks up the water. And I think it has to do with where they live. Their bodies are designed to soak up that water. And like wool, their hides are real woolly. So wool is one of the only fabrics that when it gets wet, it retains its like R value of insulation. So what they do is they get wet, they expand, and their skin is like a wetsuit. You know how you get a wetsuit?

You're like, it's freezing out, but water gets inside and it keeps you warm. They're kind of a stinky critter, those chamois. They got a smell to them. I don't know. I think tar. Tar definitely smell a little. They both are a little stinky. What do they taste like?

Tar was good. Tar is good, yeah. Tar is one of my favorite animals but it's also like when you go on a tar hunt it's uh it in my opinion it's like it's an expedition you don't just like roll out and go i'm gonna go shoot a tar today no you're like you better be you're in the shit you know i mean like when we got up there i was getting on these guys like we have to leave before the sun yeah before the shade hits this mountain otherwise we sleep here because you will die because what happens is that the snow melts is within in like an hour of the shade hitting where the snow melts it'll turn to

ice and you can't stop yourself and you'll just go off a 3 000 foot cliff yeah they're looking at it right actually that's the tar right there. So I don't think we have the shot directly below those tar. Actually, I don't know. That was across the river. But where we climbed up to was literally probably a 1,500 foot cliff, like just fucking straight down. Fuck. Well, I remember that being a concern with where you shot the animal.

Yeah, because you don't want them to go off the cliff. You want them to fly off the edge turn into hamburger exactly what happens when a tar flies off a cliff drops 1500 feet do you just leave it down there or do you go down and get it uh you go you go get it i so this year uh for the solo hunters deal i i did this trip on my own and i crossed the river the river was so like crazy the water is flowing over the hood and it's full inside the vehicle. Like my ankles, you fill the truck up with water to cross because it keeps the weight down, keeps it from floating and flipping. What? So I've got a snorkel on my truck.

And some of this I don't like couldn't really cut because when you don't have a camera guy, it's like freaking impossible to cover everything, you know. It's like I really wish I would have covered that. But when you're like, I might die, I'm not going to dick around with, you know it's like i really wish i would have covered that but when you're like i might die i'm not gonna dick around with you know whatever so some of the the good crossing i didn't catch but i did get some of the other stuff anyways i mean you go across the river and you're floating down the river and the water's going over and your heart is like literally in your throat it's the scariest shit ever and then you get off and uh well you don't get off but you get off and, well, you don't get off, but you get out. This is why I'm alive. I'm not quite, so the cab of the vehicle is full?

Yeah. How are you breathing? No, no, no, not fully full. Just partially full. Like where you'd be sitting. So like where your feet, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I've got holes in the floor.

So like when I do severe river crossings the level fills up so then like the it like keeps keeps it down so it's not full of air do you have a special vehicle for this no it's just a toyota just uh toyota like forerunner so you take a toyota forerunner and you put some kind of exhaust snorkel so that it can be deep underwater because otherwise where the exhaust tips are if water gets in there it stops tips are, if water gets in there, it stops the combustion. Exactly. If water gets in the engine, then it doesn't work. It needs air to breathe.

So the snorkel's up like right at the top of the left window. And so you cross kind of like at a 45. So you go up river and then you 45 down because that's the safest. And then you just kind of like are floating down, driving. I mean, it's grinding and water's over the hood and everything you're looking at your window and the waters maybe halfway up the window is just like muddy water so then you cross and and then I hiked up to this spot and you know I'm tar hunting and this that's like my favorite thing

to do is just an adventure every time. And I get up there. And I had actually bow hunted up there like a week before. It was unsuccessful, just really bad weather. So I went back with a rifle. And I shoot this tar. And I thought like, oh, it looks pretty good. Well, it fell into a waterfall, like the top of a waterfall.

So then I had to film myself scaling down, climbing, and then I'd huck it off the waterfall and then go down to the next bit to where I could cut it up and pack it out. Wow. And if you've never seen a tar before, they don't look like a real animal. It looks like something out of Star Wars. It's like a gorilla with horns. Yeah, it's like a lion gorilla horns goat.

It's crazy. They're cool. Yeah, they have very, very bizarre hair. See if you can pull up one. They might even have one from the show. There might be a video. You guys have more videos online now, and I understand that MeatEater is now going to have digital downloads

available, so you could download. I believe we're working on it. It's not up yet. It's not something you go right now and download, but we're working. We're getting there. We're trying to get people to watch the show. There it is right there. That's the tar.

And that's one of the weird situations where they weren't sure if it was a good place to shoot it because it was right near the edge of that cliff. It's tough to tell from there. What I've done, if anybody wants to check out those Solo Hunter episodes from last year, that waterfall will be on this season. But last year, if you go to the Solo Hunters website,

solohunterstv.com, we've got every episode up online right now, free. So you can just watch everything. It's a great show. I've got DVR. I've got I don't know how many episodes on the DVR. So you can just go online and check them all out. It's a great show, man, got DVR. I don't know how many episodes on the DVR, but I have a ton of them on there. Check them all out. It's a great show, man, because it's, again, a unique perspective. We were talking about how Dan is so into making sure that Meat Eater doesn't look like the average hunting show.

With Soul Hunters, it's so unusual to see a guy wandering through, whether it's you or what's the other guy's name? Tim. Tim Barnett. Yeah. I watched another one. I watched two of them last night. One with you in Africa, another one with him shooting a moose. And he was trying to drag this fucking moose out of the water by himself.

And I was just like, God damn, that thing is 1,200 pounds. It's fucking huge. I mean, he doesn't look like a weak guy, but I mean, how the fuck are you going to drag that thing out of the water? It's like a lot of this, like inches. Yeah, it's hernia waiting to happen. Yeah, that's the last thing you want to have in Alaska, too. No. That's the nice thing.

Like, if you're by yourself, you want them in the water. Yeah. A little buoyancy goes a long ways. Well, I was amazed that, I mean, when we were in Wisconsin, we shot that deer. How hard it is to drag a deer. It wasn't even a big deer. What did that deer weigh that I shot? 130 pounds or something maybe?

Oh, maybe a little more than that, I would say. That mule deer, maybe 150. No, the other one, the one in Wisconsin. Oh, yeah, 130, 120. So we're dragging it out. I'm like, this is fucking exhausting. And it's two of us. It's two of us dragging this little deer.

I'm like, god damn, is it a fucking moose? Yeah, it's exhausting. And it's two of us. It's two of us dragging this little deer. I'm like, God damn, a fucking moose? Yeah, it's crazy. I think Solo's impressive in a lot of ways. I think the camera work's impressive. If Remy wasn't the hunter dude he was, I'd hire him to be my cameraman because he's better than most people out there. Well, you also have an artistic perspective on it

that I thought was really unusual and I didn't expect in watching the show where you talked about macro shots and really close-ups of just pulling arrows out of the ground and seeing flowers and distant shots. It's very artistic as well as being... I like doing it because

I'm a creative guy. I like designing things and being creative. It's a way for me to tell the story of exactly what's happening with no filters. Nobody else is there'm filming it's my story it's my world like that's the closest way to get into my brain you know what i mean because i'm and obviously like things get edited too you know but um like i film what i like you know and so and i think like as it's grown you'll see more and more of that because i like every bit of nature you know so i think you're going to see like an adventure you're going to see you know plants and animals and all kinds of stuff who does the um the production uh tim does the

production so he edits it he does everything yeah so it's a two-man show yeah exactly sometimes a one-man show when it's his show right like it's him getting a moose? He does the whole thing yeah, he designed this show. Yeah. Yeah, it's fucking great show again Another thing that's great about it is this is a zero redneck aspect to it. Yeah, we try that can't believe here We are again. Oh wow man. I'll tell you what Alaska. I'll tell you what Alaska is a beautiful They're up for some awards, too, right now. Their show are. They should be. Is that for this week, the SHOT show?

Yeah, that'll be SHOT show this week. What does SHOT stand for? Don't know. Jeez, I don't know that. It's something, something, something, and something. Something hunting. It's tactical and hunting. Shooting, hunting, outdoor trade gun.

I think that's it. Are we still going to try to do a bunch of episodes of Meteor this year? I'll do four of them. I got some propositions for you, man. What do you want to do? You say what you want to do, and I'll make it happen. I want to do whatever we can do. Let's do it.

I'm not even interested in money. I'm trying to have fun. At this point in my life, this is what I want to do. I like hunting. I do a lot of exciting shit. I mean, my whole life has been exciting shit, from martial arts to doing stand-up comedy, working for the UFC.

So I know what exciting shit is. So when I get into hunting and I'm fucking like, this is crazy, this is even more exciting than I'm used to being excited. That's how exciting hunting is. Well, let's do it. You come up with your dream list of what you want to do. And the other thing that I want to do is,

I don't know if it's a show, I don't know if it's just part of Meat Eater, but I want to teach people how to hunt through video. I want to do like a how-to thing, like first blood, write a passage, something just like taking people on their first hunts, explaining the skills. I think people would absolutely love that. I think they'd be entertained. Well, I think that was one of the more interesting aspects of the first episode that I did with you guys. One of the things that I found interesting is like the first episode, boy, when I was about to shoot that deer, I was fucking tweaking. My heart was pounding.

I was breathing. I was trying to stay calm. It was so nerve wracking. I had only shot a rifle maybe five times before that. Like literally I shot Steve's rifle five times two days before that. And this animal's 200 yards away and I'm trying to stay calm. The second deer was like an assassination. There was no heartbeat.

There was no weirdness. But I had shot 90 rounds the two days before and 20 rounds the day before of 300 wind mags. So it was just boom, boom, boom. I was so locked in on just shooting something. See, what's going to happen to you is what happens to most hunters is you're going to do this for a while, right? And you're going to be like, what's next? And then you're going to go bow hunting. I've got a bow.

It's a new world, man. Yeah, I'm sure. I just got a bow. It's insane. It's crazy. I just picked up one last week. I got a bow. It's a new world, man. Yeah, I'm sure. I just got a bow. It's crazy. I just picked up one last week. I got a bow tech experience. I set up targets in my backyard. Yeah, it's fun to shoot, too.

Fuck yeah, it's exciting. This is the discipline of archery. Yeah, but I mean, it's like the most, when you're stalking animals and being close, I mean, it's the most predator-prey, primal thing you can do. How much elk hunting do you do do with bow and arrow oh i mean that's pretty much that's your thing well i i personally am a bow hunter um i started like rifle hunting again just because filming myself bow hunting was near impossible in some situations and i still do it like it's stupid but um i still do it but i mean my thing is bow hunting and

and that's why like this this this new Apex Predator show, like, if I'm going to be hunting something, it will be with a bow, with my hands, or with a spear. Pretty much. Or with a gun in a very specific situation. In a very specific situation. If we're learning about, like, long-distance archer fish shit or something. I mean, we could talk about some, like,

and you can even throw some in because some of these we haven't even, like, decided on, but there's a fish called an archer fish right and this fish is a master of ballistics so like this would be one of the rare episodes where we use a rifle like we we look at this archer fish and this thing will shoot a stream of water like six feet or more and knock these little bugs off. And they are compensating for the drop of the water and the reflection of the... Yeah, this is crazy. The spin of the earth. And the reflection of everything.

They're like... The spin of the earth. They're like masters of ballistics. And by the time they get to adult level, they're one-shot kills. Most of them. Look at this. Yeah, it's amazing. They're spitting and knocking birds off of twigs. And then they eat it.

Nature is a motherfucker, dude. It's so weird. That's why I'm so pumped about this Apex show is because I love nature and I love what it can teach us. I look at it like human hunters are at the top of the food chain like

but how did we get there you know so this show like this new show the apex predator show is not me being an apex predator it's my quest to see how we became an apex predator you know so i'm gonna like look at every bit of nature and in some way we've adapted i mean you look at like a simple moth camouflage itself and then look at all modern camouflage comes from the way, we've adapted. I mean, you look at like a simple moth camouflage itself, and then look at all modern camouflage comes from the way that we saw moth side. Or, you know, I mean, there's like lions walk quietly. And so we're thinking about doing this episode where I train hard in my feet and then go in the Sonoran Desert and hunt barefoot like a mountain lion would. What I'm most excited for is learning how a crocodile can stay still

and submerge ourself underwater. See, the thing is that I'm so jealous about Remy getting to do this that I have to do it along with him because otherwise I'm just too jealous about him. You're going to get in the water as well? Yeah, we're going to submerge underwater and then grab a pig. Oh, my God. You're going to try to grab a pig with your hands? Yeah, just like live.

Say goodbye to your fingers, son. Oh, my God. Just from the water hole, just like an alligator crocodile would. Wow. Have you seen this video of this? What the fuck? There's this video of this jaguar swimming across and grabbing this caiman. You've got to have seen that.

I have seen it. We need to do that episode. Yeah. Just like, bam. I mean, that's beautiful. Yeah. Better be careful. You're not a jaguar.

That's the point, though. I mean, you know, it's like we can look at nature, and it's like one of these things. It's like it can teach us so much. And I think it has in the past that we just don't know about it, you know. I mean, you look at, like, how wolves hunt hunt and then you look at these tribes that hunt very similarly and you know it's like they had to have learned it somehow you know and i think like looking at nature learning these things um it just makes us it's like put us in the spot to where we are where we don't have predators but dragging a pig into the water seems fraught with peril yeah it does the

idea of sneaking up on a pig in the water they're fucking terrible they smell everything too right that's that's where i mean that's where like alligators and crocodiles have the advantage because they move they like the pigs don't even know that they're there. It's like a log, you know And then they're grabbed by surprise lose cat and pulled in boom Cats are such evil fucks They really are anything so when you shot a mountain lion. Did you eat it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, what does that taste like? It's like pork really it's like the closest wild animal to pork even wild pork is in his pork How much of it do you eat? Do you eat the whole animal?

Yeah, you can eat the whole thing. The legs, everything? Yeah, whatever. The legs are darker meat. Most people just eat the loins, though. Yeah, the legs are darker meat. But I was actually out checkering this weekend, and this guy was telling me that some dude

makes some chili con carne in this national festival and really secretly uses mountain lion meat and wins every time. Wow. I ate mountain lion once. I had burgers. A buddy brought me a couple packages. And that same night, I had a dream that I was getting eaten by a mountain lion. Karma, bitch.

Wow, that's a weird thing. So if it tastes that good, why don't more people hunt mountain lions? It's not easy. It's incredibly hard. Yeah, you need them. It's the hardest thing to do? Yeah. Yeah.

It's specialized. I mean, what's more elusive? There's probably something more elusive, but in North America, nobody sees mountain lions. I mean, rarely. Very, very rarely. Naturally, you don't see them. And if you do, it's a freaky moment. Yeah.

I mean, it's weird i mean it is weird that a big cat that just runs around killing things with its face just lives amongst us yeah you know like in north america we're pretty i've spent a lot of time in africa and like in north america the animal's disposition is fear of humans you know whereas like in africa there's so much competition that large predators are more aggressive um so you know like a mountain lion would be so lethal but they just are they're afraid you know they don't they don't see humans normally as food unless it's like rare circumstances old mountain lion yeah can't hunt anymore yeah desperate exactly or you know i mean like it's mostly like women and children that get attacked by mountain lions you know i

mean it's just one of those things that they aren't that aggressive even when they're like chased or whatever they try to be reclusive and don't attack you like a wounded mountain lion isn't first instinct to attack it's which is like a wounded leopard's first instinct is attack, you know, which is completely different. Yeah, fuck cats, dude. That's all I have to say. Fuck cats. Cats creep me out.

They really do. They creep me out because they try to catch you from behind. They're sneaking up on you. Is this that one that they spotted in Hollywood? Yeah. This fucking cat, they've spotted him in the Hollywood Hills. They got him on game cameras and shit. That's a big fucking cat, too.

Look at that thing. Yeah. Is he collared? Yeah, he's collared. Yeah, but these are recent pictures that they've taken of him in Griffith Park, right where the Hollywood sign is. Fucking mountain lion. Big one, too.

Big 150-pounder. At what point is he like, mm, that hiker looks good? Whenever he gets running out of rabbits. Hollywood sign is. Fucking mountain lion. Big one, too. Big 150-pounder. At what point is he like, mm, that hiker looks good? Whenever he gets running out of rabbits. Cats, rabbits, dogs, all that kind of shit. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's an interesting thing when you have encroaching cities and the urban sprawl starts making its way into these territories and you start having to deal with the consequences of crossing the feeding grounds of these animals. Yeah. It gets weird, you know, with bears.

It gets weird with cats. Yeah, it's like one of those weird things that you deal with. Because, you know, I've never, I mean, I kind of associate myself with, I mean, I sleep a lot on the ground or wherever. And it's like in that situation, you know, you feel like you're in their world. So it's like just part of it. But when they come into a city, it's like, oh, they're in our world. You know, but really, it's like, no, we just like, can't stay away. You know, we just moved our little communities out there. And we're, we're putting this nice, fluffy dinner out in front of them every night. You know, it's hard for them to say no.

Yeah, one of them got shot in Santa Monica a couple of years ago. Yeah, I heard that. 90-pound cat in someone's backyard. Really? Yeah, and they found it in the backyard, and they had to shoot it. Fucking Santa Monica, man. That's, I mean, it had to walk through a lot of streets to get there that's not the outskirts

the other thing too is what's it I mean it has to be eating pets or something because it's only there if it has food and it's how long is it going to survive I mean like you look around it's like what is there to eat here I mean like do homeless people I'm surprised like you know people sleeping out at night you know if there's a

cat I don't know they probably smell so fucking bad the cat's like I'm surprised, like, you know, people sleeping out at night. You know, if there's a cat, I don't know. They probably smell so fucking bad, the cat's like, I'm not going to eat this guy. I mean, maybe a bear would eat him because bears eat human shit. I think it's a lot of work for a mountain lion to eat a human. I think that's why they don't do it. Really? Yeah. A lot of work to catch us?

Yeah, I don't know. I guess that's just an assumption I have that, I don't know. Here's the thing, though. Humans are the only predators that stand upright. Every animal on the planet knows the human predator profile. You know? Like when you're stalking a deer or whatever, trying to sneak out and, like, get real close, like bow distance, you don't stand up. You crawl.

Because sometimes they'll look at you crawling and it's not a threat. But if you stand up and give that profile, they know you're a predator. Even in Africa, if you see a lion and you let it see your human profile, they hightail it. Because they know that's not right.

That's our predator. Well, I also think there's a study recently that they published a report about it in the Telegraph today, actually. I put it on my Twitter page that memories can be passed down to later generations through genetic switches that allow the offspring to inherit the experience of their ancestors, according to new research that may explain how phobias can develop. So if you think about animals, I mean, every animal in North America's ancestors got killed by us. Oh, yeah. Every fucking deer, every mountain lion,

every bear, they see us. Fuck that. That switch goes off, that genetic switch, and they just peel out of it. The same way everyone's afraid of big, crazy teeth. Even little kids that have never experienced monsters before serpents yeah spiders all those and they think that that might be the root of things like irrational ones like arachnophobia aphidiophobia fear of spiders and snakes and heights you know

one of the weird ones that like they might have been a you know just a memory that's stuck in the dna yeah because that's always like you think about like the snakes that have certain colorations and animals know not to touch them then there's other animals that sim like are similar to those colorations and then don't get touched somewhere along the line everything needs to know that like that's poisonous you know yeah no shit what is um have you ever had a situation where you were in a, like, a place where you shot an animal and you were trying to get it out of there, but some predators were moving in and making a play on the animal, like wolves or anything along those lines? Yeah, I had a client shoot an elk once with a bow, and it ran off, and it took us a while to find it.

And when we came up to it, like, a bear had claimed it, and so it was like, and it took us a while to find it. And when we came up to it, like a bear had claimed it. And so it was like, grr, grr, grr. What kind of bear? It was just a black bear, a big black bear. And we ended up just scaring it off, you know, and it didn't really do anything. But most of the time, human scent is a pretty big deterrent. Animals don't like the way we smell. You know, if you can get your scent around they're gone

that's interesting generally speaking and this bear this fall actually tracked us by scent like oh but generally yeah you get your wind at them and they'll go away now when you go bow hunting do you bring a gun or anything just in case uh no i don't and uh that's like my maybe just like how we're talking earlier just just like getting complacent. I, I forego a lot of safety nets just to travel light. Yeah. You know, I forego like a lot of things like in a lot of trips, man, I won't even bring enough food. Yeah. I saw that. That was, I was next question I was going to ask you, you try to just shoot things and eat them along the way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, it's kind of like one of those things for me, it's like part of the adventure, part of the trip. And it's also

like a personal experience. Um, I mean, there was one hunt and I mean, you know, I, I like mention it like on say as a solo hunter or whatever, I'll mention it, but I don't play it up in the show because it's like, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's almost like too dramatic and playing things up that don't make any sense to most people. So it's just my personal thing. Like there was one deer hunt where literally I, I was starving and I was going probably 3000 vertical or more a day, lots of miles over 12,000 feet in elevation. I mean, my body was eating itself and it was really weird. I mean, yeah, something weird to talk about, but like there was nothing left it was just like you had to go to the bathroom it was just like mucus coming out you know just like white

it's like spit it'd just be like spitting like no just water nothing wow absolutely nothing and you know you feel the ill effects of it but for me it's like okay that's part of it like hunting like you're hungry and i think for apex we're do it. I want to do a hunt where – because we hunted – each episode we're setting up like an experiment. So there's a lot of hunt science involved, a lot of science involved. And so what I'm going to do is do this experiment where I like fast for three days and then do a blind before. Like I'm full. I go into a room and then see how I can pick up scents. You know, like maybe have like three rooms, five rooms. one has like an animal scent, another food scent to blank, you

know, see if I can see it, or I mean, smell it. And then, and then like starve myself for three days, which really, if like for hunger isn't that long. And then, and then see if I can smell things. I did an article a little while, probably two years ago, and as we get hungry, our olfactor senses, which are our first senses to develop, our sense of smell, is like our first one. And as we get hungry, we start noticing different things. And there's like when you're hungry,

you're actually like doing more exploratory sniffing, just like smelling the air. Because it's our first, it's funny, it's like that's our first scent to finding food because we can find the invisible. That totally makes sense and it also makes sense the same way sex feels better when you haven't got laid in a while. You're like, oh, this is

great. But if you fucking twice a day every day, you're like, alright, here we go again. You know, like let me stuff my face with another fucking cheeseburger or I'm starving to death and I smell something amazing. You know, someone's got a pot roast in the oven. Oh my God, I haven't eaten in days. Holy shit, this smells good.

That's one of the things I think that people enjoy about fasting that they don't really talk about. It says, yeah, it gives your digestive system a break, but it also makes you really appreciate the food when you actually can finally eat. The same thing with hunting or hiking all day, why food tastes so good. It's just because you burn calories, you need calories, and your body is just like...

Yeah, that's a big one. The burning calories, like you want to stuff your fucking face when you get back. You can't eat enough. No. And fats. You want fats.

That's the weird thing is you find your body craving fat, animal fat. Yeah, your body wants what it needs, you know? Yeah. And I think that's going to be part of it too. I really think that that experiment will go well.

Like I'll smell things that I wouldn't smell when I'm full. And then also then we'll go, I'll like starve myself and then go hunting because a large population of predators actually don't hunt until they're starving. Wow. Yeah. Like a wolf, they'll feast or famine. They just gorge. They'll feast until they're gor wow yeah like a wolf they'll feast or famine they just gorge until they're gorged starve gorge it's like it's it's a really weird deal but you know they hunt

better when they're hungry i know people can hunt wolves now does anybody eat wolf apparently i mean steve was telling me and i've read like some people say it's like there was a few explorers back in the day they were like, wolf's the best thing. I think it was Stephenson. Stephenson, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. Wolf's the best, maybe because you fucking hate them because they're trying to kill you and you kill them and then you get to eat them. Well, my guess is he was pretty fucking hungry when he ate that wolf.

Yeah, exactly. So it probably tasted pretty good. What? Wow. Wolf would be the best. Imagine if it was unbelievably delicious. I don't know. It's not logical, though, because they're eating other meats generally.

But so are mountain lions. Yeah, but you don't eat the mountain lion legs. You eat the loins mostly. You don't eat the legs? Most of it you don't. You can't. I think you make it into some kind of Mexican dish and everything tastes good. Why wouldn't you eat the legs?

Is it too tough, too muscular? Is that what it is? I think so. I'm just gaming. So the loin, meaning the muscle that covers the legs? Is it too tough, too muscular? Is that what it is? I think so. I'm just gaming. So the loin, meaning the muscle that covers the spine area, right? The back strap. The back strap. That's the softest for some reason?

Yeah, it's the most tender. It's the, like, the largest piece of meat without any connective tissues or ligaments, stuff like that, you know, which make it chewy or whatever. And muscles get worked or, like, I think of a chicken. It's like dark meat. So you have a difference in your aerobic and anaerobic muscles. And that, like the amount of blood and oxygen that's put in there and the amount of use changes like the flavor in meats. That's why a lot of people like love beef.

But if you think about the way those animals are, they're like put in these lots where they don't move. And their muscles aren't real. It's like they try to make them all better tasting by not working them. Isn't that fascinating? I think Kobe beef tastes gross. Terrible. I don't like it. Someone at a restaurant told me that

I have to try it. It's amazing. They told me the whole process. They massage this animal and they give it beer and all this different stuff to make it. I go, okay. It was a greasy mess. It was just like nasty, greasy disease. It was like eating an alcoholic.

People always ask me, like, what's the weirdest thing you've ever eaten? And I've eaten, like, coyote. Who knows what? I've eaten, like, pretty much most weird species on the planet raw. And I'm, like, thinking about it and i'm like thinking about i'm like slim gyms yeah who knows what that's made i mean it's all dicks and assholes right cow dicks and cow

assholes yeah slim gyms are fucking all that mystery weird shit we do we package things into tube forms what a strange thing yeah we always make it look like dicks. You know? It never looks like a frisbee. No. We turn them into dicks. Is it easy to just roll it? I mean, what's the reason to get mystery meat in dick form all the time?

It's an old practice, though. People have been making sausages for hundreds of years. Right. Always like dicks, though. Why? I don't know. When you make sausage, you're like, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever done.

When you make venison sausage, do you add pork fat to it? Sometimes. Yeah, I think if it's something I'm going to give out or whatever, I add pork fat because it gives it that extra consistency. A lot of times on my ground meat, I don't add anything. I just like it how it is. Yeah, this trip, the last trip we uh had meat sent to a processor a butcher and he turned it into sausage and a bunch of different things and they added fat to it but this trip uh we did it ourselves and i didn't add anything to the ground venison and i just cook

it with grass-fed butter and garlic salt yeah just cook it leave it fairly rare and it's un-fucking-believably delicious it's so good i. I cook up some kale, and then that's like my favorite new meal, ground venison and kale. It's fucking insanely good. That plus tomatoes, that's my favorite meal of all time. I can eat that twice a day every day. Yeah, especially if you grow your own. I've been doing that lately too, growing my own cauliflower, broccoli, tomatoes. My ultimate goal is to

be responsible for all my food all my vegetables and all and all meat game meat have you noticed how much more you care about that food too it's like insane like you just think about like you take like when i take a elk steak out or whatever i like take it out i like i like treat it like a baby you know what i mean you like defrost it you like marinate it you like you know it was like even with like a tomato you grow you like pick it gently you like carry it inside and you know it's like the ones you get from the grocery store you just throw on the counter in a bag like it doesn't mean shit yeah the meaning behind our food is definitely something that we've lost in our transition from hunter-gatherers to this weird sort of uh agricultural based society

and not even agriculture where you're connected to the agriculture, where you just go to a place, give them paper, and they give you the fruits of their labor. It's weird. Yeah, you put it really well, I think, this last time in Wisconsin, just about the weirdness we have here in this country about just meat in general and the consumption of it. It's weird.

There's a disconnect that goes quite deep that, you know, we're looking at it. People are looking at it. I think it's being recognized, but it's pretty fucking weird. There's a disconnect that goes quite deep that, you know, we're looking at it. People are looking at it. I think it's being recognized, but it's pretty fucking weird. Think about, like, the people that live a long time on this planet. They're all people that eat food from where they're at. You know what I mean? There's just something to be said for people that eat things that are from where they are. You know, it's like if you have deer in your backyard and things that you can grow around there,

there's just something to be said for having that kind of diet. You know, I think that it's like weird for humans to eat an orange from South America any time of the year, you know? I don't know. Well, I think that I would love to see some sort of a study on the nutritional aspects of wild game over beef and what they are. I mean, I know you said that elk has very low cholesterol in comparison to even chicken. Per gram. Well, elk's even more so than venison or deer. A lot of people call it venison or whatever.

But, yeah, the amount of protein per gram is like double in uh in game meat as well really yeah so you get more protein less cholesterol less fat because think about it um wild animals store their fat on the outside of their muscle because it needs to be readily accessible so they burn it the quickest whereas like meat is not supposed to have fat inside of it's not supposed to be marbled that's something that we've created it's something that we created by feeding them this high protein corn and everything and not letting them move so when you eat something where the fat's inside that's completely unnatural i mean you could get any any animal marbled like that if you if you treat them the same way but because game animals keep the fat on the outside there's relatively zero fat inside the meat itself because it just doesn't make sense because they would need to burn it and they can't access it as quickly.

So that's why, like, and if you look at it, well, if it's not fat mixed in there, what is it? Well, it's protein. It's pure protein. So for the same amount of steak that you have for beef versus wild game, you're going to have more protein, less cholesterol, less fat. Do you ever worry that someday that because of the negative attitudes about hunting and the sort of disconnect that we experience now, as opposed to in the past, just, you know, a hundred years ago, there's a massive disconnect between now and then. Do you ever worry that there's going to come a day where they'll stop hunting?

Um, yeah, I mean, of course you worry about that, you know, but you think about it and maybe I think that there'll be a lot of resurgence of certain things when we kind of, people will start saying, Hey, this is really messed up. This is really messed. I mean, everything in our society changes at some point, you know, and for better or worse, I mean, governments are always changing and the ideas behind things are always changing. And you look at like our food and at some point, I mean, you're really starting to see it now where people are like, what exactly am I putting into my body? You know, it's kind of like beef actually, nobody ate beef. Everybody, like the original Americans, when beef was around, around because they would they would drive the cattle from Texas north before the rail lines. And so beef was the gamiest meat on the

planet. Nobody liked beef. And it wasn't until the rail cars where they could ship them up and then put them in feedlots that people started liking beef over game meat. So I think that then people would be like, well, why do we actually like this? You know, and if people really understood what they're eating and, you know, like the benefits of other things, I think that there's popularity in that. But on the flip side, like as you've experienced, hunting isn't one of those things like, oh, I'm just going to go out and go hunting. You know, I mean, you need somebody to show you. It's very, it's like a hard thing to do. And a lot of people don't realize that, like, you know, you might hear this person like is against hunting. Like, oh, how hard is it to go out and kill something with a rifle?

You're like, well, to do it the way I do it, like as a true predator out in the mountains hunting and stalking. And it's not that easy as you've seen. I mean, it could be there are a lot of times you come back with nothing yeah you know oh no doubt and that's one of the things that i really appreciate about both meat eater and solo hunters is that you guys show unsuccessful hunts yeah and you know and it's not like you're like all depressed and it's like look you know this is a part of it it's hunting it's not killing you know it's not that it's not like you're going to the pen finding a cow that you enjoy and shooting it in the head. You're going out there into its world, and you may or may not be successful, and there's a lot of factors there.

There are. Those factors, the lack of success on occasional hunts make the successful hunts feel even better. Yep. What a better way to end it. Perfect. So the show is called Apex Predator. You guys are in the middle of negotiation, and you'll keep us updated on what it is. For sure. Let us know who picks it up or what winds up happening, and we'll promote the fuck out of that.

Awesome. Daniel Doty on Twitter. Yep. Right? And do you have a Twitter? Apparently, I do. Have you ever used it? I will now.

Yeah. At Remy Warren. At Remy I will now. Okay. At Remy Warren. At Remy Warren. Okay. R-E-M-I-W-A-R-R-E-N. And, of course, MeatEaterTV is the MeatEater Twitter. Steve Rinella will be here with us on Friday, and we're going to talk some more with him about probably a lot of the same subjects,

and we're also going to go hunting. Steve and I are going out this weekend. So thank you. Thank you to everybody tuning in. Thanks to all our sponsors. Dr. Rick Strassman unfortunately had to cancel. We're trying to get him back again. He's in the middle of publishing a book, though,

so this week he won't be on. But we've got a lot of people on this week. It should be a lot of fun, a lot of people, including Steve Rinella. Dom Herrera is going to be on tomorrow. Brian Denning. We've got a lot of people coming on. Lots of fun, Dom Herrera is going to be on tomorrow. Brian Denning. We've got a lot of people coming up. Lots of fun, ladies and gentlemen. So thank you.

Thanks for everybody that came out to Phoenix this weekend. Tom Skurr and I had a great fucking time. It was a lot of fun. And thanks to our sponsors. Thanks to Squarespace.com. Go to Squarespace.com and use the code word Joe and the number one and save yourself some cash money, ladies and gentlemen. What exactly do you save? I'll pull it up.

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One of them will be in the A, actually noon, with Dom Irera. And the other one with Brian Dunning. And that is at 3 p.m. He is a skeptic and a very intelligent guy. We should have a lot of fun on that one. Then Ronell is on Friday. All right, until then, we'll see you. Big kiss.

Mwah. Mwah. Mwah. Mwah. Mwah. Mwah. Mwah. Mwah.

Mwah. Mwah.