The Joe Rogan Experience - #460 - Kron Gracie

Episode Date: February 24, 2014

Kron Gracie is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner and a member of the Gracie family. He is the youngest son of Rickson Gracie and grandson of Helio Gracie.

So a few years back, my friend Gordon Hester, who's a guy that I met on the internet, said, hey, do you want to have dinner with Hicks and Gracie? So I said, fuck yeah, man. If you are a jiu-jitsu practitioner, it's very rare in a sport. I guess there's a few sports like if you think bike racing, you think Lance Armstrong, unfortunately now. But that's the name. But the universal name that gets thrown about in jiu-jitsu there's the last name which is Gracie and then once you get to know jiu-jitsu and you understand jiu-jitsu and you get you start

training everybody always wants to know who's the best who's the best who's who's the best universally regarded as the all-time best is your father your father hicks and gracie this is not much debate amongst jujitsu people there's debate as to who's the best right now but i talked to henzo about this one time and uh henzo just shook his head he goes he's a motherfucker he goes he's a motherfucker he's just laughing he's like he's the best he's the best and when a guy like henzo says something i just listen you know me too so what is it i that's when i met you um you're you were with your dad and we we went and had some dinner and then we went back to your house and we watched some fights which was amazing to have your dad break down what what guys are doing wrong and

what's wrong with uh positioning, what's wrong with their approach and what his approach is. And for me, as a student of martial arts and as a fan of martial arts, it was a huge honor. And you were, I think, were you like 16 or 17 back then? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, you were into rap music and all kinds of different shit. So from that, I've run into a few times over the years when Hoist fought Matt Hughes and a couple other times. You've become yourself one of the most prominent jiu-jitsu fighters in the world today.

And that's so cool to see. It's so cool to see a young kid with aspirations and then put in the work. And it's also cool to see the son of a great man become a great man himself, which is very difficult. And it doesn't really happen that often. You know, a lot of times the son of a great man lives in the shadow of his father and sort of falls short. But you in your young life, you're 25 now? 25. In your young life, you've already carved out a great name in jiu-jitsu with your own accomplishments. You're widely considered to be amongst the very best in the world at jiu-jitsu. And how does that feel?

It feels great great you know now finally uh after so long of you know because i i knew when i was a little kid that i was gonna have to be a fighter or be a martial artist and have to yeah i mean have to really as much as you're my dad like wants to make it feel like he didn't put pressure on me, and, you know, he did. You know, people say he teaches invisible jiu-jitsu. Well, I'll talk about invisible pressure. You know, like, yeah, like, at an early age, first, when I'm a little kid, I can kind of always see, you know, how much my dad trains and how big he is a part of what he does in the world

and how much people respect him and how much recognition he gets. So from a very early age, you want to replicate that and you want to do what your father does if it feels cool to you. And it's always been really cool to me. Of course, when I was younger, up until 12 years old, I used to skate a lot and jiu-jitsu was kind of whatever. But knew that in the future that that wasn't what I was gonna have to do no matter what so you know it came to a point where I kind of put skateboarding aside and I had gotten hurt skateboarding a bunch of times and I was like you know what I don't I don't care about skateboarding

as much as I do jiu-jitsu I'm not gonna be as good as a skateboarder as I can be with jiu-jitsu which um this kind of all it clicked for me uh one day with my brother you know we we were talking and everything and this was like one of the last conversations we had and and he was always like you know Kron you you could whatever you do in life you do it 100 you know you you you do it the best you can do it you know if you're going to be a dentist you'd be the best dentist if you can be a skateboarder you'd be the best skateboarder but the only difference is right here you have an opportunity to do jiu-jitsu and you have the best road you have the best dad as a coach you have the best all the tools you you you need to to really be the best you can be and it would be stupid for you not to really be the best you can be. And it would be stupid for you not to really take advantage of this.

And that kind of happened when I was 12. And after my brother passed, I kind of really, really put effort into that. And I kind of really made it my mission to make him proud and to make my dad proud. And I kind of knew what I had in my hands. But at that age, you never know how good you're going to get, and you never know what's going to happen. So I just kind of dedicated myself, dedicated myself. And then, you know, when we met each other, I was still fully dedicated, but I still hadn't achieved, you know, anything really. for me like in life when you when you when you when you try when you try when you try when you try is you only get like what you think you're going to get way later you know like I put so

much dedication into it by 16 years old but I hadn't seen any of the of the fruits and I hadn't seen any any necessarily like big reward from it you know so it was basically just the passion of being able to train jiu-jitsu and being able to to do what I knew was my mission and um I kind of lost my track a little bit what I was going to say but uh so basically from from that age you know it was it was it was always like I I knew that I had to do that you know know, as much as things would always, like there's always like little things that go in your head that you might want to like change or whatever. But in my mind, it was never an option not to do jujitsu and never an option not to be the best I could be and to be the best in the world. That was always like where I was going to be. I never had a plan B. I never had a, oh, I was just going to try this.

And then if this doesn't work out, I'll try. I never had a plan B. I never had a, oh, I was just going to try this. And then if this doesn't work out, I'll try. I'd never had that. For me, it was always, this was where I put my energy in. So I kind of just put my energy into it. And, you know, from a very early age, from 12, 13, 14, everybody knew me as Crone Hickson's son. Oh, you're Hickson's son. Oh, you're Hickson's son. So I already kind of hated that. You know, I hated being called Hickson's son. I hated being called Hawkson's little brother. I hated being called somebody that I wasn't, you know, and like being recognized for something that I didn't do. Somebody other than who you are. Yeah. So I kind of always knew that if I wanted to, to climb out of this name and

climb out of the shadow, I would have to work twice as hard. And it was, it was going to be, you know, a real obstacle for me to get past this. And that's what I, in my mind, that was my ending goal, no matter what. I wanted to be my own man. I wanted to be able to represent, you know, myself and my family and everything. And I wanted to be able to be, you know, remembered as, you know, somebody who kept it going, you know, kept the legacy going. For folks who don't have any experience in martial arts, I'll try to explain this to people. There's, when you really stop and think about the history of martial arts, the most important moment, in my opinion, of modern martial arts was Hoist Gracie entering into the UFC in 1993. When Hoist Gracie entered into the UFC, we saw for the first time in a real application,

we saw what we had always wanted to see in the movies. A smaller man with technique defeating larger men. A smaller man utilizing leverage and utilizing his skills to defeat everybody in front of him. And from that, we got introduced to the name Gracie. We got introduced to your father. We got introduced to Elio, your grandfather, who was the most important figure in all of martial arts. For folks who don't know, martial arts, for the longest time, for thousands of years, there was all this debate about what was the best style. Whether it was karate or

whether it was Kung Fu. There was all these different people that swore that their master could defeat a thousand men in unarmed combat. No one knew what the real deal was until the UFC came along. And that was when the world got introduced to the name Gracie. What is it like growing up in that environment? And when did you realize that your family was different than everybody else? I mean, you come from the most important family in the history of martial arts. Martial arts is what every man wants to be able to do. Every man wants to be able to fend himself. Every man wants to be able to kick ass. The most important family, in my opinion, is the Gracie family. There's no comparison. Yeah. I mean,

you don't really, you don't really think about it like that when you're in the Gracie family, you're kind of just born into this thing where it's all about martial arts and it's all about, you know, dedication and discipline and you come from, you know, tradition. So you don't really think about from the outside point of view, you know you know for me it's just been a very normal thing to you know train jiu-jitsu in the living room to talk about how to defend yourself to talk about you know leverage and health and all this this is just very normal for me you know it was never new seeing somebody get in a fight it's more interesting than it is like oh a shock so it's never been nothing big but you know the older I get the more I kind of realize of how big

what I'm a part of you know and how important it is and that only motivates me more to really you know step up and be able to keep this going because you know my grandfather was a was a crazy dude you know he would challenge you know anybody and his goal was to represent jiu-jitsu and to prove that jiu-jitsu was the best and and that guy weighed 135 pounds and he was not a physically fit dude and you know it goes to show how powerful his spirit was and and what he did he changed the world you know he he made it so that a weak person could defeat a bigger opponent and you know with my dad with him with him leading everything and taking charge and trying to spread, he was a very, very important person in all of our lives. He made it possible for

a weak person to be able to defeat a big opponent, to have the self-confidence to believe in something other than physical form, to believe in the leverage. And he, you know, his theory and what he put onto his children is what gave not only the leverage and the technique, but also put physical abilities on top of it. So my dad got all the theory of the leverage and being a weak person and how to survive if you're weaker. But my dad wasn't. He wasn't weak. He was strong. So he used the

technique and the leverage and the strength on top of it which created a monster you know he created you know somebody who is physically strong but trains like as if he was a very lightweight of not a physically strong person so he's able to really maximize his potential and me coming up into this you know again like it's always just been a fun thing and something to be a part of and it only kind of really clicked that that you know the older you get the more you realize how part of it and sometimes I kind of look outside of from myself and I kind of think man I'm in a this. This is like a movie. My grandfather was this legend, and my dad is this legend, and I'm the only son.

It's like a movie. Not only am I the only son, but I'm also being able to prove that it's still in the genes, and it's still a powerful thing that we're dealing with. I'm overwhelmed sometimes. I kind of look back and I, and I very grateful for the situation. And,

and obviously God put, put me in the situation and put us in the situation for a reason. Now, um, most recently you won the Abu Dhabi, uh, submission championships, which in the world of grappling is the most prestigious no-gi submission title in the world.

And for folks no-gi, there's two different types of jiu-jitsu. There's jiu-jitsu with the kimono. It looks like a judo uniform. That's the gi. And then there's jiu-jitsu with no-gi, which is much like wrestling or the type of techniques that you would see in the UFC because they're not grabbing clothes. Very different, very different as far as the pace of things. But Abu Dhabi, this is the most prestigious championship in the world. So you accomplished, like, you hit the top of the mountain.

You know, you became much like the others in the Gracie family before you. You became a champion. What was that feeling like? It's a great feeling, you know. There's no complaints about that. And, you know, I think this is, in my perfect world, in my dream, if you would have asked me if I would have won the Abu Dhabi, I would have said, of course.

I would have won it probably much more times by this age if you would have asked me when I was 15 years old. But, you know, in life, it's not so easy, you know. And for me, my life, everything was easy. You know, purple belt was easy. Brown belt was easy. So I never had had this obstacle of challenges and I never really had to dig deep and figure out what am I about, really. So I won everything. I was undefeated as a purple and brown belt,

and then my first match as a black belt, I lost. I got my ass whooped. And it was a mix of a bunch of things that I came to my conclusion of why that happened. But in the end, I think that I was just not mentally ready for that, and I let all these outside things affect me. And anyways, I lost the fight and really dug deep to see what I was going to do with my life. And, you know, after you realize what happens and how you can prevent it and how you're going to get better, then you start to really work hard for what you want to get.

And after that moment, I kind of started to really become a man and really understand sacrifice and how to work hard. And if you want something in life, you can't depend on anybody for it, and you can't ask anybody for it. You have to go and really work hard to get it. And that, I think, I started to really become a man as a black belt, and that's when I really put my energy into it. And, you know, I've lost tournaments. I've won lots of tournaments. started to really become a man as a black belt and that's when I really put my energy into it and

you know I've I've lost tournaments I've won lots of tournaments and sometimes I lose because of points and I've never really been about points but ultimately I feel like now after so long of being on this journey of this hard path I finally kind of started to find myself in the past couple years and and I'm finally getting uh getting the results that I've I've wanted a long time ago and I've realized a lot more about life and about myself than than if I would have just won everything so that's a great situation to be in and I'm I work really hard for this first place uh medal so it's going to be hard for somebody to take it from me that is an interesting thing isn't it that you need defeat in order to really inspire you to the greatness that's inside of you you need to feel adversity to rise to the occasion of course you fought uh was it sergio

moran yeah who's a very very good black belt and he's uh fighting in the ufc now and one of the best jujitsu guys in the ufc really fantastic technique really fantastic technique. That's a guy that you're connected to forever now because of that, right? Yeah, I thank him in my mind. I thank him a lot. And I got promoted like two weeks before the world championships, and my dad's always like, life is about surprises and about challenges, and he's like, you want this black belt? And I had submitted 55 straight, and i was like yeah i want this

challenge let's see what a little did i know it was gonna fucking shake my world and um but i i'm grateful for it and and it's great you know i i have no no complaints and i and i wouldn't have changed anything what is it like growing up i mean in your you're going into this world of martial arts with a guy like that as your father. Like, what kind of advice did he give you? Oh, the best advice. I mean, I think that's what made me who I am and be able to really become my own man at this age. The advice that my dad gave me was such a, you know, it's easy in life to be drifted by things

and to be drifted by what people say and what you personally think and say and feel. So always being able to have my dad give me good advice and be able to be my father and to teach me how to be a man, not just jujitsu, not just being good at technique, but being able to be a good person, being humble, and doing the best that you can. I think that's what allows me to become great at jujitsu and what allows me to become great at whatever i do and you know for me i never

really had that much training sessions with my father people think he was there coaching me every day training on the sidelines with the water bottle and all the shit that's never existed and but one thing i do am very grateful for is um when I started to train really hard at like 12 years old my dad wasn't training at the academy my brother had passed and he was just on his own search you know so he disappeared from the academy but every night I'd come home and he would be there and he wouldn't ask me how was school. He would ask me how was training and I would tell him, oh, man, I got smashed or this happened or I got stuck in this position. So at the dinner table or in front of the TV, he would give me an answer to my problem and he would give me advice, whether it be about jiu-jitsu technique or whether it be about what happened here or how to how to react to what this

person did and so my my learning my jiu-jitsu really growth happened over food over you know watching tv you know that's where i really learned what i learned and then went back and trained at the academy and practiced what i was taught so um most of my jiu-jitsu I learned through verbal, just light conversations at the dinner table and being able to do from that, really. Your dad had that approach, which was different than Hoist's approach and different than many other people's approach,

this approach of mastering the physical as well as mastering technique. You know, your dad is an accomplished yogi. He's very physically strong. That was one thing that really separated him from a lot of the other people in the Gracie family. Yeah, I definitely think so. I think what separates my dad from not only everybody in the family

but from most fighters is not only his mental strength but his spiritual strength and he's a very spiritual person and um i think that's huge you know especially now in my life realizing how important that is a part of me i think being spiritually connected to yourself and connected to whatever is above us is is is something that really sometimes things you can't explain happen when when you're that connected so my dad has always been a very spiritual person you know he's he's done all the things that he does for his purpose you know if you talk to him for about money money is just you know secondary to to what his beliefs are and what so as opposed to some people who they will go against what they believe in or they will go against their spirituality for a paycheck so my

dad you know never never did that you know he never took you know sponsors for for beer or whatever you know because he doesn't believe that that's necessarily the image that he wants to go with. And I think, you know, he's a very spiritual person. And I still, even to the day, I'm, like, surprised with how much of a, how much honor and, you know, like, you know, it's just weird to describe how good he's done for jiu-jitsu, really. And growing up in that atmosphere, that's an incredible role model to have like to have that as your dad this this guy that's got such a high moral standard and he how did he get into yoga because that's another thing that really separated him from a lot of

other martial artists and really opened up a lot of people's eyes to the beneficial aspects of yoga so he got into yoga with this guy orlando cunning who was a brazilian uh yoga guy who basically his whole theory was breathing with your movements so being able to because yoga is usually you breathe then you stop and you kind of breathe and you just do your movements and you're kind of just static but he kind of incorporated breathing with movement and being able to like he would be like oh i'm gonna i'm an animal i'm a tiger so he would walk like a tiger and he would breathe like and you look and he would visualize himself like a tiger so he started to be able to

to not only do that as an animal but he started to transfer it over to jujitsu and being able to because this this theory with the guy's theory Orlando Cunning's theory was animals are perfect you know they move and they breathe and they don't get tired and they everything is is in sync so his whole theory was the better you can do that the more you can replicate that the more you're going to be able to be efficient with your with whatever you do and the yoga for my dad I guess guess, was a huge, huge part. And, you know, since a little kid, he kind of always told me about breathing and yoga,

and I never cared, and I just kind of brushed it off. Until when you get older and you start really having difficulties, when you really start searching and really start having problems, then I started to start to breathe more and and now I think that the breathing is a a huge part of my my myself and it's a huge part of my growth and it's a huge part of me being able to be in be in tune with what I'm doing so I wouldn't take away that for anything and I think that's probably one of the biggest you know additions to my to myself that I could have added.

Yeah, the yoga breathing is a thing. Pranayama, is that what they call it? I don't know. Yeah, pranayama is a huge part of what a lot of people are missing when it comes to the idea of yoga. They don't understand that deep breathing and breathing exercises are, they're very difficult to do. It's very difficult and it becomes like

a factor of motivation. You can do this shit too, right? Yeah, yeah. The shit your dad does with the abdomen? Of course, yeah, I do that. What is that? That crazy video,

if folks who haven't seen this, there's a documentary called Choke. It's an amazing documentary and it was back when Hickson was competing in Japan Valley Tudor. folks who haven't seen this there's a documentary called choke it's an amazing documentary uh and it was back when uh hickson was competing in uh japan valley tudor was it like 1995 or something yeah 94 95 and um he there's a video that really like opened up a lot of people's eyes of him doing yoga and moving his stomach around with these weird stomach exercises. What is that?

So your diaphragm, well, I can kind of explain, but basically your lungs are like bottles. They start skinny at the top, and then they fill up to be big at the bottom. So when you normally breathe, you're only filling up a small portion of your lungs. And when you get scared or when you have anxiety, everything, it shortens your breath. Panic breathing. Yeah. So that's what normally happens. That's what's very normal for humans. And being able to breathe through your diaphragm is filling your lungs to the max. And being able

to control that is, so your diaphragm is a muscle and you need to train it like a push-up or like anything you do you need to train your muscle so the more you train your muscle the more control you have over it and that is just being able to have the highest control of your diaphragm muscle and when you have that kind of control you can filter your body out easier as opposed to like right now if you don't train it, you can't even like use your diaphragm. So just that simple movement is a difficult thing to do. You have to train to do that. And then being able to do the…

do you have to train to do that and then being able to do the so what you're doing is you're you're breathing in deep and then you're you're pulling your diaphragm in that actual exercise that you do is you exhale you have no oxygen in your lungs and then you use your then you just kind of massage your diaphragm and you kind of just have that kind of control. So you're just practicing how to move it because when you're training and you're tired, and if you have to think about to breathe, it's already too much. So you should just have it. It's like one of those things that start fire. When you push out, when you open it up, it fills up naturally.

So if you learn how to breathe through your diaphragm, you naturally are going to filter way more oxygen and you're going to have, everything's going to be better. Like that's the reason why I can train as long as I can train and why I can stay clear. And normally a lot of people, they, they get gassed out or they, or they feel like they're going to pass out or they, they get anxiety. So being able to breathe correctly is a huge part of my growth, I think. Did you learn that from your dad, the diaphragm breathing? Yeah. What does he call it?

Is there a name for it? No, because we're not necessarily like yoga crazy, you know, super into a specific type. I think I just use yoga for my benefit, and I'm not like a ride or die of a certain type of yoga. I just kind of use yoga for my, for what I do, for jujitsu and how to become a better person. So I don't know exactly what the name is or anything. It's just being able to breathe and being able to use my diaphragm and

being able to stay calm and learn how to manage my energy. So that has helped me not only with jujitsu, but anything new I do do or if I'm going to come here on an interview if I start to get nervous you know I breathe and it goes away so the breathing has helped me become is giving me really an opportunity to do everything that I can do yeah I do a lot of deep breathing exercises um in a sensory deprivation tank and one of the things that I do is uh the long breathing like I'll have have an inhale that lasts a minute and then the exhale lasts a minute. And it's a discipline.

Like you have to force yourself to maintain that pace because you get to a panic. You just want to fuck this. But you can stay alive and keep doing it. You can do it and you can still stay alive and keep doing it. But it becomes this weird thing where your body starts freaking out it's like breathe motherfucker stop breathing out breathe breathe breathe in yeah but breathe out for a minute and then breathe in for a minute breathe out for a minute there yeah there is different types of exercise i know like sometimes

if i'm if i'm trying to stay calm i'm gonna breathe slower if i'm trying to get energy i'm gonna breathe faster if i'm trying to maintain a high pace i going to breathe slower. If I'm trying to get energy, I'm going to breathe faster. If I'm trying to maintain a high pace, I'm going to... It's like a car. When you drive a car, if you're driving slow, it's like... But if you drive fast, the car is like... So you need... When I train, if I'm in a very intense session, I'll breathe loud. To make sure I'm getting enough oxygen to keep up with what I'm doing physically.

So I definitely am very grateful for being able to have that a part of my life. And it's cool, man. It's really good. I only experienced that breathing for the first time in jiu-jitsu after a lifelong of martial arts. I'd never heard anybody breathe like that until I started training. martial arts, I'd never heard anybody breathe like that until I started training and then at John jocks Academy and hearing people, you know hearing like black belts roll or Here guys really what the fuck are they doing? Well, you know, I was a white belt I was looking around everybody doing it was it was such a strange thing and John Jacques explained to me that you know

when you breathe out you will definitely breathe in force yourself to breathe out and then get rid of all the bad air in your body and breathe in fresh oxygen. And then the forcing it out is something that people don't concentrate enough on. Yeah. When you normally want to breathe, you breathe in. And then that only fills up that top part, you know. So if you, I mean, there's a lot about about it but i think it's definitely a huge part of my success today and it's also a huge part of my dad's success yeah i would recommend to anybody who is interested in this to go and just look up various yoga breathing videos on youtube and just

follow along with them and you get a great benefit from that and it's something that people don't really think too much about about concentrating and controlling your breathing. And there's also a great meditative quality to that too. One of the first breathing exercises I ever did when I was really young, somebody told me that you can meditate by just concentrating only on your breath. Just not even a breathing exercise, but just breathe in good and out bad and think of nothing but those things think as you're breathing in you're taking in oxygen and as you're breathing out you're just pumping out in with the good out with the bad just think of those things and think only of your breath and by forcing yourself to concentrate on that it sort of filters out everything in your life

and it all becomes like background everything else sort of calms down and you get this feeling after you're done doing that if you do that for an hour everything else sort of calms down and you get this feeling after you're done doing that if you do that for an hour everything else sort of like the the importance of things that you thought were so big and so crazy in your life and all this is fucked up what am i going to do about that it seems less important after that yeah i think the breathing keeps me in touch with my spirituality and being able to breathe like i've gotten into some some super gnarly trances where i'm you know really connected to whatever is above us and and that's through the breathing so that like being able to breathe and like after your training or

during your training or however you you like to do it has given me huge, huge benefits. And I connect myself to when I'm training, being able to breathe puts me in a very animal-like state where it's like me against you. I'm not thinking about what you're doing. I am thinking about what you're doing, but I'm not thinking about things. It's more of like a feeling, and that feeling, the closer you are to that feeling, it keeps you almost above your mind, above you can actually think. It's more like of an animal instinct.

And that, like, man, since I started to really incorporate the breathing and connecting it to my jiu-jitsu, it's given me way more. Well, there's a whole group of people that use breathing it's called holotropic breathing and they use it to achieve psychedelic states they have achieved psychedelic states for sure like what's the most intense state you've ever achieved while breathing oh i mean a couple times after training when i'm really exhausted like i'm'm very, very, very, very exhausted to a point where you wanted to stop training like 30, 40 minutes before. And then after, I'll do a breathing and breathing and I'll just keep going into the breathing. And as I start to breathe and start to get more in tune, nothing exists.

And it's just me and I can almost see the particles in the air and I can it's just like a sensation that you know I've only felt a couple times but I definitely have gotten in touch with like it's it's very it's very intense to like to get to that point where you just feel it's almost like you can see the air it's almost like you can see and like all these little things and it's it's pretty intense so i've gotten to that point a couple of times where three or four points where where i feel like where i can actually feel the energy and it was a great thing man i'm like after if you feel high and you smile and you're like man this is like crazy and it's crazy that you can how much we're capable of as humans and how much we do is is so big and you know you think about the actual world and how

how the actual world is is like this planet we should be in touch with something above you know we should be able to in touch with how this got to this or how there's water how so all these things that we today are like oh no that's this that's this or this is that it's so much more you can't explain shit you know so it's like really i go a lot more about my feelings these days than anything else you know over my rational decision i kind of try to feel how things are i feel how people are i feel how how i feel how, how I feel about this training session, whatever it is. I kind of try to go more about feeling because that's never failed me before. So these breathing techniques and these states that you achieve, they give you a sort of

a fresh perspective. They give you a perspective of recognizing the greatness and the beauty and the magnitude of life that sometimes escapes us in our normal everyday path where, you know, you just sort of take for granted that that's a door, this is the house, go outside, that's the sky. It becomes normal, but these breathing techniques and just the psychedelic states that you achieve from them allow you to, it's almost like a reset button.

Yeah. It's pretty cool, man. I really recommend breathing. And for anybody who is doing anything in their life, whether it be something, you know, whether you're trying to get through a tough situation, whether you're arguing with your girlfriend, or whether you're stuck in traffic, or whether you're trying to stay calm while somebody's trying to choke you,

the breathing has given me, and it took a long time. It's not like, oh, boom, I started breathing. I got it. It actually took a long time before you really value it. Because when my dad started telling me this, I kind of didn't care. And I was just like, whatever, whatever. He's got all kinds of, she's always telling me shit. So I'm all, but after, you know, the older I got, the more I kind of started to have stress and have to deal with

this pressure and then I kind of started to do it every once in a while and then now it's at a point where the past few years I've really stepped it up a lot and it's really a big part of my my my training and my and everything I do so even when I skateboard now I'm like trying to breathe and I'm trying to like keep keep'm trying to keep everything in tune so I can do the best I can do. The last time when we had dinner together, your dad was still talking about competing. He had stopped, but he was still thinking about fighting.

There was always a thread on the underground. One of the big themes on the underground is Hickson by Armbar. They would joke around about anything. You know, who would win Godzilla versus King Kong? Hickson by Armbar. It was just an inside joke. When something couldn't be answered, someone would just write Hickson via Armbar. Did he have any regrets that he didn't fight any of the big-name guys,

that he didn't continue? We were talking about him fighting Fedor. He was saying that if he did fight someone, he would want to fight Fedor, who was the champ of pride at the time. Yeah, I think that, I don't know if there's any regrets or anything. I think it was just a time in my dad's life where, well, right after my brother passed, you know, he got offered to fight Sakuraba. And it was a big, big payday. And it was a big, big fight. And of course, my dad, being the man he is, he wasn't going to just leave the family

to go train for a fight and to take his selfish needs into consideration so he kind of just took away turned away the fight and kind of gave his energy to the family and tried to do what he could to to help everybody and after that time passes there's still like some some people wanting to have him fight and he was maybe fighting fatal or maybe this but i think after that moment he kind of just the time passed you know his fighting that time had passed for his, even though it was still a possibility for him to fight. I think that he necessarily, he was ready to fight and as a man, he was ready to die. But I don't think that necessarily it was, I'm glad that he didn't fight after that. I'm glad that he, you know, it happened the way it did and he retired the way he did

and he still has, you know, the greatest image. So I think that it's a great thing that it went the way it did. You know, like my dad is a great fighter and he's a great mind and that separates him from everybody else. But I think that everything went fine. Even though whatever happened, I think that he didn't need to fight. He didn't need to prove anything to anybody else. Even if he did fight, win or lose, that wouldn't have been him at his best.

I think my dad did enough from when he was 15 to when he was 40. He proved enough people wrong. He did what he had to do. He was ready. You don't know what it's like nobody knows what it's like to be having to be ready to fight to die at any moment motherfuckers come in your academy and they challenge you you got this guy telling that he doesn't believe in jiu-jitsu so nobody knows what that feels like to have to be ready everybody now oh you want to fight okay give me three months or six months i'm going to train for my fight but to be have to be ready at any time any moment no matter what you know that's

where my dad lived like from 15 years old to 40 years old so he needed to retire he needed to be able to not be ready he needed to be able to release and I think that was the best thing for him and it was the best thing for his life and now I think it's all good and it's just a very tough situation man a lot of people don't know how serious my dad took of course people know how serious but you only see the the glory you know you don't see how he really is as a man and how how you you really make it your life you know and fighting is a big thing it's probably the hardest thing to do and And, you know, that guy was ready at any time, anywhere, ready to prove, ready to prove the family was better, ready to prove that he was better. And, you know, that's what gives me inspiration to wake up in the mornings

and do what I do. And I only really do it because of him and my brother. I only really compete because of him and my brother. I only really compete because of him and my brother. My motivation is to keep him happy and to keep this family remembered instead of just, oh, the Gracies were good when nobody knew jiu-jitsu, but now everybody doesn't. They're not the shit. They're no matter.

So I think it's important for my life. I've already kind of am willing to sacrifice my life and willing to sacrifice whatever I feel and how I like things to be for the bigger objective, which is to keep my father and my grandfather, you know, alive and well in their legacy. Were you there for any of those challenge matches like when Anjo came to the dojo? I was a little kid at that time. I was like maybe four or five years old. And I remember the days happening and it happening. I wasn't there at the specific invite because not even my dad was at the academy.

My dad was at home eating breakfast. And the guys came and called him. I was like, dude, guys in Japan are invading the academy. So my dad got up and like got ready to go to the academy. And that was like another thing. Like he just waked up, thought it was going to be another day for him to go on a bike ride. And then motherfuckers outside the academy ready to challenge you with all this press. And if you lose, it's just like a real fight.

For folks who don't know, that's one historical match that apparently Gordon Hester said he's seen the video. that apparently Gordon Hester said he's seen the video. Yoji Anjo, who's a pro wrestler and MMA fighter in Japan, just showed up at the academy, and Hickson took him into a back room and beat the fucking shit out of him. And your dad, he came out, and Yoji Anjo's face, there's photos of his face online where you can see what your dad did to him.

But I've heard all sorts of stories about the way he choked him and all sorts of, you know, I don't know. True story, true story. I've seen the video many times, and I used to bring my friends over when I was a kid and show them the fights and everything. There's Anjo's face up on that screen. So the story behind that is he came into the academy,

and it's a long story, but I'll kind of sum it up. But basically he came in to challenge my dad and my dad was like, OK, fine. So he shows up at the academy and they kicked all the press out because he didn't want them to film in case whatever happened. So he kicked all the press out and then just the guy, Anjo, and his manager were in the academy. My dad was having a class or my dad's black belt was having a class so there was a bunch of students there and yeah man just like everybody says my dad beat the shit out of this guy like this guy came in and my dad instantly took him down mounted him beat him up and in the beginning of the fight the guy turned his back to try to get put to sleep

because he realized he was going to lose so he gave him his back to get put to sleep and my dad was like no you're going to take more punishment you're not going to get put to sleep so easily you know so he kept beating him bad and it was like it was hard to see you know as even as a kid and he broke his nose you can hear his nose break and it's a pretty big beating and then after he fought put him to sleep he called the press and the press came in and took pictures and everything. Anjo went back to Japan saying that he got jumped by the academy, that we all jumped him. And then my dad had filmed it, brought the video to Japan, and was like, look, this is the fight.

Showed it to all the press, and they were like, oh, yeah. They all thought it was very bad that he had lied and said that he had got jumped in front of TV. So anyways, yeah, that fight is true. And, uh, why doesn't he put that online?

I don't know. That's a good question, man. I think he just, because it's martial arts history. Yeah. I'll, I'll talk to him about it.

Put it on iTunes. You probably make a hundred grand, you know, sell that thing on iTunes for a buck. Yeah. And you'd probably make a hundred thousand dollars. Easy. Yeah.

Easy. I think so. I mean, maybe I'll promote it. Let me know, man. Let me know when it's100,000 easy. Yeah. Easy. I think so. I mean, maybe there's something. I'll promote it. Let me know, man. Let me know when it's up. I'll put it on Twitter.

I'll put it on the podcast. I'll let people know. I'd pay a buck to watch that. All right. I'll pay 20 bucks to watch that shit. To me, that's one of the great challenge matches in martial arts history. I mean, there's your dad versus Hugo Duarte on the beach in rio there's like a few of those that you can see you know there's a few of those which is fucking crazy i mean they were

they were duking it out on the beach you know in the sand you know yeah it's pretty pretty pretty wild you could see that but that wasn't the prolonged beating you know he let him up after he kicked his ass i think my dad because there were so many videos of everybody fighting, the Gracie in action videos had came out, all these videos were out, I think my dad just wanted to keep something for himself and wanted to have some kind of power because everybody had taken all the footage and everything was used in whichever way.

My dad probably never got paid a cent for the Gracie in action videos or anything. So I think he just wanted to keep something that he had power in in whichever way, you know, my dad probably never got paid a cent for the Gracie in Action videos or anything. So I think he just wanted to keep something that he had power in. And it was good, you know. At this moment, he has, you know, value to that. Yeah, and more value every year probably. More than $1.99. $50. There was also, from the outside, there was always the talk was always,

especially because, you know, I've been working for the UFC since 97. So the people that I was working with, like Campbell McLaren and all those guys, they had been there from UFC 1. And they were, you know, they said that the reason why your uncle didn't put your brother in or didn't put your father in, instead put Hoyce in, that the reason why he did that was because he couldn't control Hickson. That Hickson was just, you know, he was the best of the family. Everybody knew he was the best of the family. But that Horian knew that if he put Hickson in, that Hickson wasn't going to, you know, Hickson was going to do whatever he wanted to. He wasn't going to listen to him. And he wouldn't be able to control him the way he possibly controlled everybody else is there any is there truth to that or what is so there's a lot

of different things that happen in that kind of time and era you know um one reason why hoist fought in the ufc and not my dad because my dad was the best you know my dad would tap out hoist with one hand in his belt before his fight so there was no doubt of that one excuse i think was that horian looked or hoist looked you know more frail he looked like a more of a normal guy so they wanted to make him they wanted that you know to be able to prove that jiu-jitsu was better but ultimately i don't know if that's true or not and i don't know the exact reason but basically before that situation, Horian and my dad had a, they kind of started to separate.

They kind of started, you know, to go their own ways. And I think in that situation, again, I don't know 100%, but that's what I kind of think happened. And I'm sure Horian felt more control over Hoyce than he than he did over my father my dad was kind of already starting to find his own way and do his own thing and um yeah I don't know I don't know too much about it because we never really talked about that far back but even I think I have talked to my dad about it but I forget because that's not really that important these days for me well you you know uh Horian gets a lot of whoops horian gets a lot of grief but i mean he was such a great promoter of jujitsu and if it wasn't for him doing that it wasn't for him

putting on those gracie in action videos and promoting them and and promoting jujitsu and promoting gracie jujitsu it would have yeah probably horian has a huge part of what jujitsu and what m MMA is today. He definitely made his value huge, you know, because not only did he create the UFC, but he, you know, came to America. He spread it. He was the one doing all the challenges and doing everything. So he was the reason, really.

And my dad was just the soldier, was the guy, the one representing and ready to do what he had to do and you know it's like Carlos and Elio they Elio was the representative and Carlos was the guy who kind of took care of the academy and was the theory behind the diets and the theory behind the names and had this stuff so I think neither one of them I think they're both responsible for for the movement and yeah i think it was a great thing horian they he did like even his academy you look at his academy day it's like a museum you know he has it's like a five-star hotel with 20 shower head you look at my academy there's nothing like that you know my academy is it has some pictures and stuff but it's not focused on that my focusing is on the mats who will be trained what i teach i'm not focused on that. My focusing is on the mats, what we train, what I teach.

I'm not focused on promoting and being able to sell jiu-jitsu and being able to expand wide the graces. You know, like for me, you come and you're going to be able, you're going to come to me and train with me if you know and you want to. And Horian, he did a great job in expanding and showing the world in your face, like here, look look this is what happens when this happens and this is so he was a great tool for the family and a great you know he made it happen you know he created it a lot yeah all of us fans of jujitsu oh hori and gracie a huge debt of gratitude without a doubt and also because uh he produced his sons that are also great

promoters of juiu-jitsu. The Gracie breakdowns are one of my favorite things about after submissions. After there's a submission in the UFC, Henner and Huron will get together and discuss with great technical explanation all the various aspects of where someone went wrong, where things went right, what was the proper adjustment, what they did to get out of a bad situation. Really very, very educational. And if you watch that show UFC Ultimate Insider, it's on UFC Ultimate Insider.

It's so great because, first of all, Henner is so good at explaining these things. He's so articulate and so charismatic when it comes to these uh breakdowns of positions there's so much enthusiasm you know you watch these guys talk about these things and it makes you want to train i mean it really does it's uh it's really good stuff and it just shows how much is going on with jujitsu for folks who don't know there's so much going on you know for people who don't know they're looking at they oh, this guy's trying to choke that guy and he's trying to stop it. But it's all about the positions and the intricate details of leverage and movement. And these guys do a real good job breaking that down.

Yeah, they do do a great job breaking it down. And personally, for me, I've never been one to teach online or through magazines or through stuff. I believe that jiu-jitsu is a lot more about feel, and I kind of don't do that. I kind of disagree with myself teaching online or through videos and all that stuff. I want to be able to feel and look somebody in the eyes if I'm going to teach them jiu-jitsu. And so, yeah, that's my philosophy behind that but you know they're doing a great job of spreading it to all those people who can't get to them and they do what they do I'm not really uh too in control of what they do or how they do it but

I know for myself I kind of don't do that and I kind of stick to what you know my academy and where I teach and I focus on that kind of stuff. Right. What I'm just talking about is their explanations of jiu-jitsu in MMA. Oh, yeah, those guys are great explainers. You know, those guys, they explain to the T. It's one of the more difficult aspects of doing commentary, is explaining not just recognizing positions and what's going to happen,

but explaining to people positions and what's going to happen but explaining to people positions and explaining what where the defense is where the offense is and doing it all in real time while the mad scrambles are going on and trying to like you know you know what arms in jeopardy is that the left arm with his left arm you know you got to like process all this stuff in your head does he have his hand is his hands locked i can't see and try to put it all into together and then explain it to the layman to explain to the person who doesn't train at home where it's just a mass of bodies you know that's why i just focus on competing and training that's what's better for me competing training and teaching yeah well i like that philosophy of

looking someone in the eye and and training them because there is that aspect of if you put a video out there you don't know who's learning your shit you know yeah of course it's very personal right jujitsu and it's very personal i think so too you know and while i'm still competing last thing i want is my enemies to be able to see what i do and see how i do things so yeah there's no way i would do that one of the interesting aspects about you and your jujitsu career too is that there's a lot of variation in jiu-jitsu and jiu-jitsu styles. There's a lot of new stuff that's come along, a lot of new techniques, a lot of new strategies. But your attacks and your jiu-jitsu is very much like your father's. It's very much traditional jujitsu you know and there was a there was a time

when vinnie magalhaes was on um the ultimate fighter with uh minotaur no gara and he was talking about minotaur no gara's jujitsu and he said it's very basic very basic jujitsu minotaur got really mad at him but he he said he didn't mean it in a bad way what he meant by it's the basics but honed you know to a laser sharp uh edge like there's nothing wrong with the basics they're the foundation of jiu-jitsu and when i watch you compete you're using the real traditional techniques of jiu-jitsu you're not there's nothing like uh like tricky that people haven't seen before it's just jiu-jitsu that's done to perfection. Yeah, I think that the tricks, they work sometimes,

and they work if it's a good moment, you know, like these new things that happen and these new ways to defeat your opponent. So I'm always looking for a situation that's going to work all the time. You know, so these tricks, the good positions or stuff, they demand a lot out of you and they only work if that situation happens. So I'm not concerned with trapping myself into a position that's good for me because I count on not being in good positions. I count on being in a bad position. I count on being in all the positions. So for me, I'm leaving my training sessions open to what may happen.

And I don't try to get to a certain position and then begin my training. That's what I feel like happens most of the time in Jiu-Jitsu these days is you want to get to this grip and this sleeve grip. And then from here, you're going to start training. so to get to that position where you have your special grips and everything it takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of strength and I kind of base my jiu-jitsu on leverage and technique so that it'll work when I'm fresh when I'm tired if I'm fighting a guy who's bigger than me it doesn't depend on physical strength so that's where kind of my dad kind of forced me because i didn't always think like this and he kind of giving me the not only the the technique and the

leverage but showing me that it's possible proving to me firsthand that it's possible for you to beat your opponents with leverage to not use strength to say so So my dad, you know, been promoting this, like, little mini warrior in my mind for a long time of how to be not only mentally but physically and training-wise and spiritually, and it's been, it's all helped me, and he's a great, huge part of my success. One of the things that I took from the conversation with your dad, we were just talking about the various aspects of jiu-jitsu, but he was saying that first and foremost, one of the most important weapons that he has is his defense, that he's always safe. He said, in any position, I'm always safe.

He concentrates on that. And then the other thing was that when he moved from one position, I'll never forget this conversation. He goes, we all start at point zero. He goes, from zero in the neutral point, I moved from one position, I'll never forget this conversation. He goes, we all start at point zero. He goes, from zero in the neutral point, I move to one. And when I get to one, I'm not going back to zero. Isn't that what he sounds like? Yeah, he's a very interesting person. But it's true.

If you watch his fights, he rarely loses positions. There's no sloppy scrambles. It's one of the things that I criticize people sometimes about in MMA like guys leave too much space they go for things in a way that they're not in control of the position and he never did that you know when he would mount a guy that motherfucker would stay mounted you know when he mounted a guy was just a matter of time before he got an armbar or whatever he got for you yeah it's pretty cool to see that the I guess, like everything in life,

everything goes back to the basics. And I didn't, like, plan to have a certain type of style. I didn't, like, oh, I'm going to just try to train this style or just submissions only. No, I didn't plan that. I'm planning, and it's not like, oh, I'm going to start a fight and I'm just going to go for an armlock or I'm going to go for a crazy submission from nowhere it's not like that you're not going to get that

but my training sessions are to like your my dad says to get to the next better position to get to the next better position to get to the submission so I'm never stopping my mind I'm never stopping my training I don't stop in a place and be like okay I'm going to breathe here for a second no I don't do that i i kind of always am looking for the next place to get to the finish line and that's created a very aggressive style because i'm always looking for the next place to be and it's not necessarily like oh i just go for submissions from anywhere no i'm going for the sometimes it may be to pass the guard or maybe to do to get his leg off my hip or whatever it is that may happen.

So it's not like I'm just thinking about submissions or I'm not thinking about doing crazy, tricky stuff. It's just that those stuff may not fall into what I'm mentally trying to do. Your objective. My objective. And I think that's the biggest thing. I don't think too much about it. I just think about how am I going to get to a next better place? How am I going to put him, you know, here?

So it just comes kind of naturally. At this point, I can't even not train that way. If I try to train any different way, my jiu-jitsu sucks. So it's become, I'm glad, I'm very grateful that it's become like this and I have this type of style and I've gotten as good as I got with the basics and with the tools that I had. So I'm super stoked. That became an issue in Abu Dhabi with a lot of wrestlers. Wrestlers would take guys down and just hold them in positions and not go for submissions, just try to go for points.

And people would get furious furious they'd be like well this isn't jiu-jitsu but some people felt like the only way to compete with these guys is to do what they're doing is to fight smart the only way you can win is to to fight on points would you rather lose on points than win by holding a guy down yeah i have lost like that you know doesn't bother you fights it does i mean you don't know and you show me a good loser i'll show you a loser buddy but you know yeah i rather lose on points with keeping my mentality always with the objective to to get into a better place then to stop my game and try to find out how I'm going

to win this match while using the time on my side so I have fought matches where I lost when I could have won I was winning on points and then I went for something or I tried to advance the position and I lost it and then and then whatever the guy swept me and then I lost because the time ran out so I have lost matches like that and it served as a good learning experience and everything. And, you know, yeah, I'd rather lose on points than to sit there and stop the game and wait for the time to run out. Because I don't know if I would feel like shit. You know, I feel like deep inside me I have a thing that I feel like really bad if I don't try to go for the next position. I feel guilty almost.

I feel like my grandfather is like, from heaven, look down, I'm angry at you. So your jiu-jitsu and your path is clearly a work in progress. And even though you've achieved the great heights of being an Abu Dhabi world champion, while you're training and fighting, you're always competing with that very specific mindset so any setbacks are just going to be educational experiences you learn from those setbacks and then next time you're even greater which is why I mean you came in was it second place in 2011 uh third third place in 2011 then came back and fucking dominated in 2013 that was a big leap man, man. Yeah, that was a good one.

It was good. I think I was, honestly, I think I was ready for it. And maybe if I would have won in 2011, it wouldn't have been the same. Or if I won in 2009, who knows what would happen. But, you know, I feel like now I'm ready. I don't make more excuses about anything. And if I don't win, it's my fault.

If the guy was good enough to stall me out he was good enough to stall me out so I have to come up with something to to be able to be better than he is so I don't really take it and criticize him anymore if the guy just stalls on me I expect that the guys are not going to want to fight me and they're going to want to stall and we get some points and feel good I expect that and i trained that situation and i and i'm ready for that and so far so good you know i've been on a on a good good run lately have you ever seen the video where eddie bravo and i were talking about your match your dad was for folks who don't know in the finals the dude was trying to stall crone out and hickson starts making chicken noises he's going and for a jujitsu guy i mean you want to talk about the ultimate mind fuck you're not just

yeah fighting against the son of the greatest ever but the greatest ever is making chicken noises at you yeah that was fucked up because because because it started, when he did that, I was like, man, now I can't let this get to me too, you know, because my dad is over here like, of course, I have to kind of try to keep, in the final match, I fought a guy who I had beaten many times before. So I knew that I could win. But if I were to start letting myself believe that I was going to win, oh, I'm going to win because I had already won,

it was going to completely mess up my mind. So I went into the fight like it was the most difficult fight of my life. And when my dad started to get frustrated, I knew he was going to back away. I knew he was going to stall me out. And it was not getting to me. I was just, like, trying to do what I could do. I'm not going to go crazy because he's not wanting to stall me out and it was not getting to me i was just like trying to do what i could do i'm not gonna go crazy because he's not wanting to fight me i was expecting that the refs were going to warn him and take waypoints and i was going to let that happen and yeah when my dad was

like when he did that i was like i was like man i can't chrome don't let it get to you don't let that shit get to you man don't think don't get to you, man. Don't let it. You have to make it so that me, so you and your dad are fighting together, not against each other. I didn't want to let what he said affect my train of thought, put more pressure on me to have to do something. So I kind of kept my cool. And thank God, shortly after that, he got a point taken away for stalling. And then he went for the takedown, and I got him in a good guillotine. So it all worked out as well, and that victory right there, right there,

is like the happiest moment of my life right there. It was like the greatest feeling ever, and I think my dad's still so happy. I mean, I haven't seen my dad this happy. Everybody who comes up and talks to me is like, your dad hasn't been this happy in so long, and to see him so proud and so stoked

you know to finally achieve that number one place is a good thing it was such a beautiful poetic moment too when the guy shoots for the takedown

you immediately lock it up like this is why this guy was stalling in the first place right into the jaws of death bam you locked that thing on perfect too

that was beautiful I mean he tapped out within like a couple of seconds. It was over. Yeah, when he went for it, like, I mean, I have, I'm dangerous from a lot of different places, you know, but when he went for my leg, I was like, thanks, buddy. I was like, dude, this is great Christmas present. Like, boom, everything fit so good. And it was a good, good, uh it was it was a good good i mean it was a great

showing and that success of that competition kind of just came from a lot of i trained my ass off like sacrifice everything and you know in life that's what you got to do when you want something you know whether whatever field it is you have to kind of really see what you want. And I saw my potential and I used it. And I kind of, you know, anybody who saw me train saw how hard I trained for that fight. I was ready to win. Yeah, you want to see something crazy. Pull up Crone Gracie Ninja Training. It's some bars in Santa Monica.

I saw this the other day. Somebody put it on my message board on the thread of this particular podcast when the podcast was announced. Do you do this often? There's this wild video of you climbing up on these bars in Santa Monica. You climb to the top, and then you're swinging. Like, here's a video. How often do you do this? I mean, I live in Santa Monica, so I go there all the time, and I kind of always do just like some workouts,

and I like to be at the beach and in the ocean. But this is just like a joke, you know? Like it's just kind of a little trick, you know? Yeah, well, this little trick, he's jumping nine feet from one bar to the next, swinging and then catching with his arms like a monkey. I mean, this is some wild shit, dude. This is some chimpanzee shit. That day, Nate was the one filming that,

and he was super stoked on it. How often do you do that? I go down to the bars at least like once or twice a week just to kind of, you know, I do the ropes, and I climb the ropes for my forearms, and I do some pull-ups and stuff. But, you know, that's never like the biggest part of my training. It's never the most important thing.

It's always come secondary to training jiu-jitsu and my specific stuff I got going on. But when you train all day, every day, you got to find ways to keep yourself entertained and keep yourself enjoying what you're doing. And I hate being in a gym. I hate being in a gym. A weightlifting gym, you mean? Yeah, a weightlifting gym. And I hate being in there like working out.

And so if I'm going to go on a bike ride, I'll go outside. If I'm going to run ride I'll go outside if I'm gonna run I'll go outside I like to feel the fresh air and kind of enjoy myself while I'm in this kind of hell that I live in this kind of hell perpetual training you mean yeah how much um physical training do you do besides the jiu-jitsu I do a lot of jiu-jitsu and I do a lot of everything I run i bike i i swim i i do you know and when you do it like what are the objectives like when you when you do you're running are you monitoring your heart rate are you doing sprints are you doing tabata intervals like what do you how do you do it i do all the different types you know sometimes i do just

a long distance run where i'll run an hour and 10 or an hour 20 minutes straight and then the goal be for that would be endurance and then I'll do some days where I'll just do sprints upstairs or some days I'll just do a bike long bike rides or you know all those things that kind of just some days it's more explosive and some days it's more long distance and I just use it as a tool like as an addition to to all the things I do and I felt like since I really started to put my energy into other things it's made my jiu-jitsu better because the more in life when you sacrifice in one direction no matter what it is it gives it makes you better I don't know how I don't know what it's like something with the universe where

even if you say oh I'm gonna wake up at six in the morning to go do 20 push-ups and then go back to sleep, that is going to make you better at what you do because you are going to start to create this energy to achieve your goals. not only with jiu-jitsu, but with breathing and physical strength and technical strength and mental strength and all these different ways that I can build myself as the best I can be, it really went to show, you know. It really made a big improvement since that moment. Do you find that the physical training helps prevent injuries? Do you find that? Yeah, I do. I think it's important.

I think physical training should be done At a right time Because if you get a white belt And you start telling him Alright you gotta be physically strong And you tell him to start Working out and running Then he's gonna create

His training is gonna be based on his physical strength So my advice is The physical strength is to Add to your technical ability It's not is to add to your technical ability. It's not to take away from your technical ability and make you rely on your strength and make you rely on your physical attributes. So I always kind of don't push for guys in my academy to work out until they reach a brown or black belt level. Then they can start adding to their technique because if you get too strong, I've seen it happen many times where guys will take steroids and then they'll get so strong and they'll lose their technique.

So I never wanted that to happen to me. I knew that the strength was always going to be there if I worked on it. So I think it's important for you to build your technique. And then secondary, your strength can keep your technique going. Because, of course, if you don't have any physical strength, your technique will fade, you know. So you got to have enough strength to keep it going. Do you have a trainer that helps you with your physical strength workouts or do you just?

Nope, I got myself. That's it. That's who I count on. So it's just all that you've learned over all your years of martial arts. Yeah, and like I said, you you know like it took um you know when you're when you're training for fights and when you're when you're getting ready my dad left to brazil when like um when i was 18 so i didn't have a coach i didn't have nobody my dad was in another country i didn't have a coach i didn't have a strength trainer i didn't have a nobody to give me any kind of advice.

So for a long time, I was kind of like, oh, man, this sucks. Like, fuck, everybody should be helping me. My dad should be helping me. I should have a trainer. I should have fucking somebody, you know, writing my stuff down. And I should have all this stuff. And, you know, I should be sponsored by Nike. And I should have, you know, like all these all these things that like I compared myself to Kobe Ryan but

um as you get better you realize that stuff's not going to happen and and I kind of got to a point where I kind of stopped making excuses and I kind of started to blame myself for for for my unsuccess not blaming other reasons, not blaming because I didn't have this or because I didn't have this or because my dad wasn't here. So I'm grateful for my dad taught me as much as he can for as much as he did and got to a certain point where I stopped blaming anybody for anything and I kind of just put everything into my hands.

So what I do now and how my schedule is now as a result of a lot of years of being on my own and being of course I've had help here and there but nobody fully embraced being my help so of course I pick and I pick from the help from I can get from wherever I can get at all like this guy taught me this one thing I'll do it or so I kind of go around and using my experience to make the best training that fits for me. And I've kind of finally got to that point where I know how to train hard to where I don't over train to where I know I'm in shape to where I know a mental, all that stuff is kind of starting to really combine well based on what I feel and based on how I have lived my life and how I've

competed and how I've put my body in stress. So I'm able to kind of get a good understanding of where I'm at. When your dad went to Brazil, was he teaching in Brazil? No. What was he doing there? My parents got split up and then my dad went to Brazil to go recharge his battery. Just to hang out? Yeah, to go. His analogy is, his explanation is, you know, you put a coconut tree in America, it doesn't grow coconuts.

You put a coconut tree in Brazil, coconuts grow. I cannot explain why. So you wanted to just go make some coconuts. Yeah. So I think he just wanted to feel good and kind of be on his little retreat. And it worked well. And now he just moved back, actually, like a couple months ago. He's moved back here.

And now he's kind of, after eight years of living in Brazil, he's kind of got more motivation to be here in America, be a part of my life. I mean, he's always been a part of my life. It's not like my dad didn't help me. But he helped me up until I was like 18, gave me everything he could. And then he let me be my own man. You know, he let me do everything on my own, make my own decisions. If I wanted to do this, I could do it. If I wanted to do that, if I wanted to wake up at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, I was my own man and had the own freedom to do everything.

So he gave me the option to do whatever I wanted, and thank God I was able to really embrace that and use it to my benefit and be able to do what I did with that kind of on my own. Does your dad still train? My dad teaches. He doesn't train so much, like where he actually goes and tries to get better. He doesn't train so much where he actually goes and tries to get better. He kind of physically can't do it because he's got like eight hernias and his back looks like a, you know, he's physically burnt out.

You train at the highest level for your whole life with no. When you say hernias, you mean herniated discs? Yeah, eight hernias. Herniated discs. Yes. So he's got just his back's a mess oh yeah he his doctor said he shouldn't be walking but he walks so he can't train as much but he does put a gi on and he'll show a move here and there and he'll do what he has to do and um and i think he's happy

with that i think he's now he's gotten to a place where where he is okay with being retired and he's gotten to a place where he is okay with being retired. And he's okay with not being the front line. And he's okay with being at the stage where he is, you know, he knew that the time that he had to be physically was up until this age. And, you know, I guess when you start to fall out of your physical shape, you want to fight it and you want to know, I can still do it. And I think now he's very happy being the icon that he is and being, you know, he helps me with what he can help. He trains with what he can do. And he's still the man.

Like when he comes with me with theories and training stuff, I mean, man, it's like nobody else has the mind that he has. Even if you put his brain on anybody's body, they will be a champion for sure. Because he has a very great sense of how to adapt to anything. So sometimes I'll come up with a move or I'll be like, Dad, this has been giving me problems. And even if him not training for 10 years, he'll still feel how to defend it or feel how to deal with that or he'll have a great understanding of how to to be so i think he's just better now this time of his life he's incorporating different things he's not focused on training hard that time for him has passed the time for

him to fight his past now it's time for him to watch me fight now it's time for him to watch himself you know teach or watch him be an icon you know start you know what does he do for exercise these days oh he he surfs and he and he does exercise he'll do his little workouts and stuff and he's still he's still very active but he's just not going to go and train rounds after rounds right right but he's definitely a very healthy and physical person and I mean if I have eight hernia discs by his age and I'm able to do what he did I'll take that no problem yeah I'll take the eight hernias to being the best in the world no any day of the week so well they they can do a lot for those things now yeah I

mean he's going to doctors and if if you have any advice, he definitely— Yeah, I certainly do. The Regenikine that I had done was because of a bulging disc and made a huge impact on me. And it's also the same thing that a lot of football players have done, like Peyton Manning had done on his neck. And he had two operations on his neck. He was ready to retire, went to Germany, had the blood-spinning procedure done, and now was playing better football than ever. That's great. Massive anti-inflammatory properties of it.

And the good thing about it is it's using your own blood. So it's not like you're introducing a steroid or any unnatural substance into your body that's going to cause an adverse side effect. It's actually your own blood. It's amazing to see with his body how it's been how how well he lives and how he's happy to he says if i can surf and i can do the things if i can train once a week and do the little moves here i'm okay with that you know like so i don't know how far he's trying to step into actually being feeling like 20 years old again but i'm sure he'd be interested to hear

what you have to say well just pain relief and just the the replenishing of his body's ability to move correctly it'd be a huge impact I know a lot of guys that are getting towards his age though that have done jiu-jitsu for a long time have similar issues Ricardo Laborio told me he has seven seven herniated discs you know and you know like you stand next to Ricardo he's kind of like hunched over and leaned down and when we were describing it, you know,

you could see like he has like a wince in his face or he's just thinking about the pain but still trains. Yeah. Still goes out there every now and then and rolls

and just loves it and can't help it. Yeah. That's the problem. Jiu-Jitsu is so fun. It's too bad your body is not indestructible. Yeah.

It's too bad you can't tap out but your body's, you know, rubber, indestructible yeah it's too bad you can't tap out but your body's you know rubber indestructible they created it like that for a reason i bet yeah maybe else my dad would still be mopping fools up i'd be like this is my time now come on stop give me a break what was the last time your dad like really seriously rolled how long ago was it uh i don't know all i know is the last time we seriously rolled i got fucked up this was bad because i just got my black belt and i was like all right dad you know at this time he was still kind of not i mean he's had a hernia disc for a long time he probably had a hernia disc when he was fighting really no yeah he's probably had it for a long time it's not

just dealt with the pain yeah he's dealt with pain his whole life and um i don't know exactly what it what is what the exact he has or doesn't have but um yeah when i was like 21 years old 19 i just got my black belt and i was like all right dad let's go since you're out of shape let give me three minutes if three minutes and we'll go as hard as we can for three minutes, and let's see, because after three minutes, then, of course, I'm in better shape, and you are not training so much, so I don't want that to be an issue, and when we trained, man, he got me in like a minute and a half, and I was so pissed, got me with a footlock, and I was yeah all right he's still the man that was the last time we really rolled so um yeah I mean he's a he's a very I mean he's the just a real samurai I mean there's no way

to put it he's just all around it's not an act you know he's definitely in his bones he's ready to die even today if something happened he'd be ready to die for what he believes in. I think that's why I believe in what he says and I believe in what I do and why I do what I do with so much passion. Yeah, he's the real deal. And for folks who want to get a sense of it, even if you're not a martial artist, the movie Choke. Go watch the movie Choke because that's Hickson when he was, I mean, essentially not quite his prime because he was in his late 30s at the time.

It was probably, you know, it was better when he was even younger than that. But you get a chance to see the physical preparation when he's sitting up to his neck in an icy glacial river and meditating. I mean, fucking freezing cold water and he's just breathing and concentrating. And you see Hoyler gets in, he dips his foot in,

he's like, fuck this, I'm out of here, man. Everybody else is like touching the water and he's just breathing and concentrating and you see hoyler gets in he dips his foot and he's like fuck this i'm out of here man everybody else is like touching the water going no this is crazy and your dad's in there up to his head like like it's nothing like he's in the jacuzzi so yeah i'm that inspires me you know and i well i remember him getting out you know he's happy and praising and thank you my my Lord, just loving it. You know, he embraces the challenge of it and embraces just the wildness of being in a glacier river in Japan and the whole deal, man. Yeah, he really does it. You are starting to, you're doing a lot of training with, I know Gilbert Melendez, a good friend of yours, who thankfully just got re-signed to a new deal where he's going to compete against Anthony Pettis, who's the lightweight champion. They're going to fight after they coach the Ultimate Fighter together, which is a huge thing.

And you're training with a lot of the others, Hoyler. He's like, fuck this, let me get out of here. I've had enough. And for folks who don't know, Hoyler Gracie is one of the greatest submissionler he's like fuck this let me get out of here I've had enough and for folks who don't know you know Hoyler Gracie's uh one of the the greatest submission artists of all time too and very very successful in competition so you know when you see the difference between how Hickson deals with it and how Hoyler deals with it look that's when you really get a a sense of what a special person he is and by the way no one's telling him to do this yeah this is all his idea and your mom's

going oh fuck yeah and my dad never had a coach either you know he never really had nobody there all the time time so that gave me more motivation to and also it gave him the confidence that he could let me be on my own and and i was still gonna be all right if i was trying to be all right now what i was gonna say is you you've done uh quite a bit of training with nick and nate diaz and um ronda rousey didn't you do some training with her as well i've never trained with ronda actually um i've trained with nick and nate a lot and gilbert and jake uh quite a lot you know so those guys are a big part of my training and uh i've helped them all all out with fights and ronda trains with those guys on a fairly regular basis right she's trained

with them a few times she has i think she definitely was up there more before i think i don't know how much she goes up there now but are you planning on fighting in mma now yeah yeah i am so i actually after the agcc i kind of um kind of starting to focus more on mma kind of want my energy to be driven towards fighting professionally and in MMA. And yeah, that's where my energy is going these days. And what motivates you to want to do that? Like I said before, this has been my, I knew I was going to get to this point when I was a little kid. I never saw jujitsu as my final mission.

mission and um i was just waiting for a right time and waiting for myself to be ready for whatever obstacles i can get to on this specific situation so now i feel mentally ready and now i feel the motivation and now if you would ask me when i was 20 years old if i was ready to fight i mean i i wasn't you know mentally not physically not technically but just mentally ready to to do something like that so the last thing I wanted was to be traumatized, and now I feel like no matter what happens, I'm ready to embrace whatever happens, and I'm ready to fight. So negotiating and seeing what the best situation for me to take advantage of this moment.

Now, how have you adjusted your training to prepare for mixed martial arts? Some minor adjustments, nothing too crazy, but I think, of course, you got, there's different obstacles and different things that you got to worry about when you're just dealing with jiu-jitsu and when you're just dealing with MMA, you know, of course you can hit and stuff, but I think generally my fights, the way I fight is more of a fight. I'm not a sportist. I'm not trying to be sporty with my jiu-jitsu. So I don't think the transfer over will be that big of a jump as it could be for some other guys. People who are more points oriented.

Yeah, people who want to stay in their clums. I'm very comfortable in the storm. So I think that will help me when I fight. That's one of the most important attitudes to have in life is to embrace the storm so um i think that'll help me when i when i fight that's something one of the most important attitudes to have in life is to embrace the storm be comfortable in the storm try to figure out how to make yourself uncomfortable all the time yeah there's always time for relaxation after that's all over yeah but don't avoid the storm that's gonna make you really that's gonna then you're gonna see who you are when you can deal how you react in those situations Absolutely, especially if you embrace it it becomes a part of who you are as a human being that you do that that you take on

Those challenges. What about striking? What are you doing as far as striking? I'm working on striking a little bit here and there You know don't want to give up too much of my training. Yeah, really? But yeah, I mean I think-jitsu has striking, you know. There is, it's just, jiu-jitsu strikes when it's beneficial for you. It doesn't teach you to sit there in the pocket and just bang out with anybody. But striking is definitely a part of jiu-jitsu, and I think it's going to be interesting to see what I can do. You know, I'm curious, and I want to see what happens.

So just like anybody else, I'm very curious to see how my jiu-jitsu is going to play in fighting and what's going to happen. Is jiu-jitsu going to be enough, or is he going to have to do this certain type of training? So I think my training with nick nate and and jake and gilbert is is sufficient to to really put me wherever i want to be now your your um your uncle hoist has said uh recently you know that you don't need anything other than jiu-jitsu is that all these different people that they train wrestling and all these different aspects of striking that you really don't need it just train jiu-jitsu do you do you agree with that or do you think that in modern mixed martial arts

it is important that you cross train it is important that you prepare for a full mixed martial arts competition or do you think that the highest level of jiu-jitsu is still sufficient i think jiu-jitsu is sufficient i think um jiu-jitsu is sufficient to to be the best martial arts i just think that the rules make it so that it's not necessarily possible so the rounds the gloves the rules you know those things all change the sport and it changes the situation stand-ups yeah like if if you have no gloves nobody's gonna be throwing those punches that guys throw these days so you're gonna break your hand first punch you throw the guy ducks his head you're gonna If you have no gloves, nobody's going to be throwing those punches that guys throw these days. So you're going to break your hand.

First punch you throw, the guy ducks his head, you're going to break your hand. So I think that all those things change it. And when it changes, you have to be ready to adapt to what changes. Personally, if you put two guys in a cage, jiu-jitsu is enough. But when you put in the gloves and you put the time and you put the rounds and you put the you know all these things these steroids so it changes the situation and and you know guys are more willing to just throw the hardest punches and knock you out because they know that the round is going to end because they know that their hand is not necessarily going to break so if you ask me what's the best martial arts, I think jiu-jitsu, of course.

If you ask me what, is jiu-jitsu enough? Yes. It just depends on the rules. If you tell me, okay, it's a two-minute round and the guy is going to stand you up or do that, you know, of course, then you have to learn how to box. You have to learn how to do this. And personally, deflection of punches has always been a part of jiu-jitsu. Not necessarily being able to strike.

I don't know necessarily if I'm going to be knocking guys out, but I'm going to be able to defend. My goal in the jiu-jitsu goal, in the principle, is to be able to defend whatever the guy's going to do. If the guy's going to punch you, you have to be able to defend the punch. So I don't necessarily think that you have to be a great striker to to win mma and to be a champ but you have to be able to defend yourself you have to be able to know where the punch is coming from you have to be able to know what's going on you have to know about all this stuff it's not like oh guy trains sport jiu-jitsu for 20 years and then he

goes into a fight he's gonna get he's gonna get beat up you know so depends how you train and what your where he is and how well you you adapt to whatever's going on in the fight your dad always said that that he doesn't train kickboxing to become a kickboxer trains it to know what they're doing yes exactly so i feel comfortable so who are you talking to are you you talking to organizations can you tell me uh yeah i'm talking to, right now I'm negotiating with Japan. Nothing's for sure, but it's looking good. And I'm trying to see if I can get a, there's an opportunity for me in Japan. What organizations are left in Japan right now? I can't really say too much right now, but basically it's very shortly we'll know what's going on with that.

Well, for folks who don't know, your dad was a huge star in Japan. Yeah. They had a comic book based on him. I mean, there was a lot of fanfare and publicity, and they embraced him, especially when he won the Japan Valley Tudos. I mean, your dad was an enormous star over there, and I think that that makes sense that you would want to compete over there because they would be very interested to see.

Yeah, there's a lot of benefits for me starting off in Japan. And, you know, it's just a lot better for me at this moment in my career to start off in Japan and to really build myself the best I can. And I personally like fighting in front of Japanese culture because, you know, they're a little bit more martial artists. They come from like a samurai background, so they really care about what you are. They really care about what you stand for. They really care about if you sweep somebody in the middle of a tournament, they're going to clap, you know. So personally for me i i appreciate that and i i like that about um japan and um i think it's just a a time in my life and of course

if japan were to to ever like you know have a movement of of being able to bring mma back to japan i think a possibility would be with bringing me to it because that's gonna It's gonna replicate what my dad did, you know how he brought it to Japan So I think it's for me in this situation. It's it's a great opportunity and I'm trying to go for that Yeah for people don't know your dad was the star of pride one. I mean, that's what got pride kicked off That was the the big launching pad After he had won the Japan Valley Tudor. And then, of course, Pride came close to, I mean, it was an enormous event in Japan. Like, they had put on 90,000 seat shows several times.

Yeah, like 60,000 Tokyo Dome sold out, huge. And somehow or another, it stopped. I mean, it's one of the great mysteries of martial arts and I don't totally understand Japanese culture I guess they get really into things sometimes and then the things fade away but when we were there and we did the UFC there a couple years ago is my first time in Japan and I was amazed at the audiences they were awesome they're amazing like when the fights on, they're so polite. And then when something happens, like a transition or a sweep, everybody applauds.

Like, it's like, wow. Yeah. There's, like, it's really cool. It's, like, I really appreciate how much they love the technique and the martial arts aspect of it. But as far as, like, a crazy crowd, there's nothing like Brazil. There's nothing like Brazil. This last event when Machida fought Musashi, I watched it at home,

and when Bruce Buffer says it's time, the whole audience does it with him. I mean, there's like 18,000 people. It's time! No one cheers like a Brazilian crowd. No one cheers. And they're there at the very first fight that place is packed yeah packed they're getting their money's worth fuck yeah and they're fucking

fired up man yeah we got there early and there was already just a giant line around the block to the arena and then when we got in it man the energy the energy and the air, it was a huge, huge, huge thing. That was the last one that I was at in Rio. But there's no crowds like Brazilian crowds. Yeah, they come from the soccer background. So they're really into that. And Japanese crowds are just different in their own way. Completely different, yeah.

Yeah, very, very different from the Brazilian crowds, but different in their own unique way. So is there a timeline on when this is going to happen? Basically, we're going to know very soon. Very, very soon. The next, you know, probably the next time I see you, I'll have an answer. So I'm just waiting. I don't want to give up a date or a time.

I don't want to put too much energy into that because I hope it happens so much that I don't want to put too much energy into into that because i hope it happens so much that i don't want to like spoil anything so we'll see and it's going to happen very soon so i'll let you know i'll let you know don't worry you'll be able to did you watch the ufc this weekend i did not actually i missed it damian maya who's uh a very excellent representative of jujitsu fought uh roy m fought Rory McDonald and got beat up. What happened in the fight? Well, Damien took him down the first round, mounted him, but he couldn't submit him.

And Rory defended, got back up to his feet, and then started kicking the shit out of him. Really? And was Damien just trying to stand up with him? Yeah. Well, there you go. I mean, I like Damien damien's a a good guy you know and he's like a i've always had respect for him we've always had a good relationship um and he's always been a representative of jujitsu in a great way um so i think the more he he focuses on that and

the more he tries to really use jujitsu the better he's going to be because he's a specialist in jiu-jitsu. He's not a specialist in striking. So it's tough to try to be an excellent person in a different sport. I think he should try to focus in on being the greatest jiu-jitsu fighter in MMA, and I think that will be beneficial for him. Well, he was trying to do that I mean he was trying to take him down but he couldn't take him down so then he kept getting his takedown stuffed and then he was forced to stand with him and Rory kept kicking him he was just kicking the shit out of

him that's why I'm curious you know I'm curious to to see for myself how it is you know fighting with guys who don't want to go to the ground and see how I'm going to be able to deal with it and I don't know I have zero experience in MMA so I'm curious I'm curious to see what happens and I'm going to be able to deal with it. And I don't know. I have zero experience in MMA, so I'm curious. I'm curious to see what happens, and I'm curious to see how really difficult it could be and where my technique is going to play a role and how it's going to be because you never know. And that's why I'm really open for the challenge.

And, you know, my blessings for Damien. Hopefully he can find a great tactic to beat his opponents and beat guys who are trying to do that. Do you look at him as sort of, I mean, he's a very high-level jiu-jitsu guy. Do you look at him as an example of what can be possible and not, the pitfalls, the possibilities? Yeah, I mean, I think if somebody can defend his takedowns or something, then there's definitely a technical reason why that's happening.

can defend his takedowns or something then there's definitely a technical reason why that's happening and i think that like personally i admire the guy the guy's an exceptional athlete he's a great fighter and everything but i don't look up to his jujitsu i don't look up to anybody's jujitsu that is fighting these days you know i don't like see anything that that is exceptional you know i see guys that are good tough and guys who make it happen but i'm impressed with my dad's jiu-jitsu that's where i feel like i'm gonna try to replicate so as much as i'm a fan and i'm and i'm admired and all these guys are they made they got to where they got with the tools that they were given you know we are all given certain amount of tools, and how will you use them? So I can't take anything away from the guys who got far with the jiu-jitsu

or with the striking or with whatever. But, yeah, it's definitely like you're going to be able to see. Who do you think is the best representative of jiu-jitsu right now in mixed martial arts? I mean, there's a lot of good guys, you know. There's, you know, the classics, you know, like Damien's very good, you know, Jacare's very good. Those guys are guys who I have friends with, you know, guys who have been competing in jiu-jitsu tournaments. Sergio Moraes, too.

His jiu-jitsu, I mean, he hasn't gotten to that level yet, you know, the level of opposition yet, but his jiu-jitsu has been very effective in mma his uh his submissions are uh you know excellent i actually haven't seen him fight really in mma so i don't really know too much but his jiu-jitsu in jiu-jitsu tournaments is is good you know he's a tough guy he has a specific type of style but again i'm not impressed with his jiu-jitsu you know like i'm impressed with him as an as a whole you know he's like wow the guy can make it happen he can defend well he's an exceptional athlete the guy's very strong very explosive but you know i don't see him as an exceptional jiu-jitsu fighter um what's missing for him personally I mean, again, like I don't.

But when you say, I mean, you look at a guy who's like a high-level world champion caliber fighter, but you say you're not impressed with his jiu-jitsu. What is not impressive about it? I don't know because I've never seen him fight in MMA, so I don't know what he's doing in MMA. But when I fight him, I fought him once. He beat my ass. And then I fought him the the next time and it was a very even match I thought I won that match and I got I felt like I got gypped but did they give you him an advantage they gave him an advantage in the last five seconds so squirrelly yeah there's for folks

who don't know there's weird scoring in jiu-jitsu if if jiu-jitsu is zero to zero one guy can get what they call an advantage and it's very subjective and uh you know people i've seen fucking bench clearing brawls because of advantage scoring what i feel about impressive jiu-jitsu is why am i so impressed with my dad's jiu-jitsu it's because he outsmarts me he technically beats me if somebody is stronger than me and they pass my guard or they submit me i am not impressed because of that i think that the guy used his tools to beat me or did whatever to but that doesn't mean he's a better jiu-jitsu doesn't technically uh impress me so um it's very difficult to impress me. I come from my father. My dad has been technically outsmarting me for a long time. So it's hard for me to be impressed with jujitsu

these days. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do a jujitsu that is technical. And it's way harder for you to technically outsmart somebody than for you to just, no, I'm going to get it and just take it. And the guy defends and then you just rip right through it. So but then for you to just, no, I'm going to get it and just take it. And the guy defends and then you just rip right through it. So it's a different approach to what I believe Jiu-Jitsu is about. And that's why I feel like I'm not impressed as much as other people. Wow, he got that armbar.

Yeah, but he got that armbar because he's much stronger than the guy. The guy has no defense. So I feel like it's a mind game. And however well you use your chest pieces, you know, that's what's going to make you the results. But I don't take anything away from Sergio Moraes. He's a great fighter and he's an exceptionally healthy, strong person. And he's able to use the tools and he's able to use jiu-jitsu for his benefit. That doesn't mean he's not good at jiu-jitsu or anything that just means that if you speak specifically for jiu-jitsu is he is he like using his strength or is he using his technical abilities to to beat your opponent and that's where i say that that's why i say that mark coleman once said to me yeah

this is straight that was the match that i i uh drawed with him it was like four four and then um i lost on an advantage at the last second. You were rocking the old school samurai ponytail just like your dad. Old school, old school. Tried that out for a little bit. Nobody told me it was really gay, so I kept it going for a little bit. Well, your dad had that back in the day, man. That's a tribute.

That's a tribute haircut. You get a pass. You get a gay pass. Well, then I realized it was really, so I kind of cut it. Did it get in the way? Yeah, it just got in the way, and it just kind of wasn't really my style. It was for a while. I did what I had to do with it, and then that was it.

I was going to say that Mark Coleman once told me, strength is technique. Strength is technique. For some people, and that's for some people. Everybody has their belief. Other people, other jiu-jitsu guys, they're like, you know, if your move doesn't work, then use more strength. You know, the moves don't work because you're not using enough strength. So I don't come from that theory.

I don't come from that belief, and I come from a leverage and technique background. So that's why I feel the way I feel. It's not because I feel against anybody, and I'm not trying to point fingers or try to say that I'm better than anybody. Nothing like that. I still have a lot to prove. But if you honestly ask me if I'm impressed with the jiu-jitsu, I come from Hicks and Son.

I come from the best. If I'm easily impressed, that's not a good sign. Who impresses you in jiu-jitsu today um what really impresses me is guys who are smaller being able to really defeat bigger opponents like Marcelo Garcia Marcelo Garcia is a very he he's definitely a great fighter you know I fought him twice and he's one guy who technically is great you know like I have nothing to say about his technical abilities. He's technically in the game.

He's not overpowering. He's not using his physical attributes to beat his opponents. So I'm impressed with that. That's a great thing that he has. Yeah, I mean, the technical ability is where I feel like is the line for greatness. And, yeah, Marcelo Garcia, he's great. I love fighting him. You know, that's one guy who I would fight any day. That's like it's great to be meshing with that kind of talent.

So, yeah, he's a great example. And he fought guys who were really big. And right there i almost got him marcella yeah i had him in a guillotine for for a good minute until my forearms cramped up but um if if there was a professional avenue for jiu-jitsu if jiu-jitsu was like golf or baseball or something like that it was on television all the time. Would you be motivated at all to enter into MMA? Yeah, I think so too because I think it's more of a real fight and I think it's more of a challenge.

And I like challenges and I like to challenge and I like to see what's going to happen. And personally, I think that jiu-jitsu takes away a little bit from the full fighting spirit. Because there's no punching. Because there's no punching and because there's other tools. So the less rules you have, the more you can actually present yourself and use the inner stuff that you have within you know the fighting spirit and

find out ways to to stay safe and and personally the jiu-jitsu most of the jiu-jitsu these days are very boring matches and they're very you know point oriented and they they they kind of you know it's it's it's not as interesting to to watch because guys are not really they're there for the win, for the point. And it's not motivating for me, you know, it's not motivating for me to compete in a fight like that. I'm motivated to embark on this new journey of MMA. I'm motivated to see what happens, to see how the fight goes, what I need to do, what happens if this happens, and I think that's a great thing. Now, when you see guys like Jacare, who were great jiu-jitsu artists,

and now entering into MMA, and just, you know, Jacare's winning a lot of his fights with kickboxing, and a lot of guys that he's fighting, he's not able to take down, so he's sort of forced to stay on his track with them. Do you take away anything from that? Do you learn anything from that? Yeah, I'm trying to learn. I think Jacare is great, and I really like him a lot as a human being

and as an athlete, and I've been his fan since he was before in jiu-jitsu. He was always kind of a real cool guy to watch, and he's a warrior. That guy has a strong spirit, and he's a very strong-hearted person. So whatever he does, he's going to be good at. And however he does it, he's going to make it happen. And Jorge Carre just used the tools that he was given to get the best results that he can get. I don't take anything away from him. I didn't mean by take anything away from him.

Do you personally get something from watching him? Like, did you learn something from his approach? Yeah, I mean, personally, I'm kind of trying to always analyze, and more importantly, I'm trying to see where I fit in on this, you know? I want to see if it's really, if, how I'm going to deal with somebody who's not letting me take him down, how am I going to get him down, how am I going to find the way to win the fight? So I think it's all in the air air and we're going to see what happens and I can't wait to start to

to test myself in these waters and get these challenges and find out ways to find out ways to win now other than um Gil and Jake how many wrestlers are you working with I mean in my academy there's always been great wrestlers and and great judo guys and great everything. They all come in and out of my academy. So I've wrestled with the best wrestlers and I've wrestled with, you know, I've been in the mix with a lot of great athletes. And, yeah, I mean, they're a part of the training, you know. They come in and when I go up to train with Nate or Gilbert, there's a lot of wrestlers, and I think that's just one more tool, one more training

session, one different type of training, sometimes you train just to not get taken down, sometimes you train to take somebody down, sometimes you just train jujitsu, sometimes you just train defense, sometimes you just train one position, so you try to build yourself as a complete as much as you can and of course my specialty will never be wrestling my specialty will never be boxing or kickboxing it's never going to be my specialty so um just like jacare his specialty is not going to be stand-up he's great at stand-up he's's knocking guys out. He's doing great. But that's not his specialty. You ask him where he feels the best, it's going to be jiu-jitsu. So I feel like my best is always going to be jiu-jitsu. As much as I train the other stuff and as much as I feel comfortable in the other place, I want to bring the fight to where I feel great. That's why

Anderson Silva was champion for so long, was because he was able to keep the fight where he felt comfortable. He was able to keep the fight on his feet. And in that, you know, elusiveness, he was able to win. If he was like, I don't care if I get taken down and let the guys mount and do this stuff and then didn't fight to get up, then he would have lost a long time before. But because he was so well at being able to stay in where he's comfortable at and keep the fight where he wants to keep it at, he was an exceptional legend, you know, for so long. And, you know, that's something to admire. And I see guys, a lot of guys are just general.

A lot of guys are just really good at everything. Nobody's a specialist in anything, except for some here and there. But generally, MMA is is just you're just good at everything you're not specialized in something so i think for me coming from a martial arts background not coming from an mma background not coming from a i didn't just start doing this because i saw it on tv i come from you know a tradition and my tradition is jiu-jitsu. My tradition is technique and leverage, and that's what I base my whole life on. So if I'm going to fight, I'm going to use that to my benefit. There's one pattern that we do see in MMA all the time,

is that when a guy gets truly excellent at any one aspect of fighting, that will always be that advantage when he gets into the octagon that it's a it always is a significant advantage over people that have never competed in that individual form like like for example like if you take a guy like anderson silva is a total specialist a stand-up striking specialist i mean his whole career is a stand-up striking specialist in order for you to get that good as he was at striking. It's a whole lifetime. It's a whole lifetime.

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't got two lives. I only got one right now. I better do what I got going on. Where's your academy? Where do you teach? I teach in Culver City right next to Playa del Rey, Jefferson and Centinela.

And it's called the Chrome Gracie Academy? Chrome Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, yeah. Now, do you find that teaching makes you better at Jiu-Jitsu? Yeah, I've been teaching since I was 15. So every day I teach, even until today, I still get better and I realize something that could be better or realize how I can explain something better or realize how I can see a different side. And teaching for me has definitely been a huge part of my growth in Jiu-Jitsu. definitely been a huge part of my growth in jiu-jitsu and I see people who just train and don't teach and I see a big difference in the people who do teach and how much more knowledgeable they are and how much better they can be from that yeah it's interesting isn't it that teaching

someone who doesn't know something forces you to think about almost every single aspect of it including parts of it that you could sort of take for granted and it seems to translate not just what jiu-jitsu but kind of any anything that you teach people of course yeah if you sometimes you do something naturally and it just feels right and then when somebody asks oh how'd you do that or how'd you get out then you have to like sit and you have to program your mind to do and know what you're doing instead of just reacting. You know, you have to know like, oh, this is I knew I did that. And I know. So I think it's teaching for me has been huge. And I really, really enjoy teaching much more now.

You know, I really enjoy teaching. I really enjoy making people better. I really enjoy, you know, as a teacher, I am able to see what a person needs and see where he's weak and try to make it better. Instead of coming with a class, like in my mind, oh, I'm going to just teach this class. I'm going to just teach this move. No, I'm looking specifically to see what this person is lacking in and how it's going to benefit. Some guys are too hyper. You have to calm down, breathe. Some guys are too slow. Wake up, buddy.'s get it going you know it so I think the good teacher is the one who kind of adapts to the needs

of the the student for the for the goal of being better you know I'm not necessarily trying to make you feel good I'm not necessarily trying to make you believe something I'm trying to make you better good. I'm not necessarily trying to make you believe something. I'm trying to make you better at jiu-jitsu. You have to get better. You have to be a little bit better every time you leave me. You know, so I really believe that the more I teach, and especially for me personally because my dad left when I was 18,

so I had all these students at the academy, you know. These were all my training partners. So I had to teach these people to be better so that I could have good training. Because if I just was there like, oh, yeah, just do that, move, yeah, keep going. All right, guys, keep going, open training, all right, boo-boo. Then I would not have great training partners the way I do now. I have great training partners now because I was like, okay, how is this guy is this guy gonna beat me all right dude when don't let me get to this position gate and i'm like very passionate on letting these guys get better to tell him i tell him man dude the way you're gonna beat me is to do like this don't and i'm making these guys better to try to beat me so

that one they stay motivated and two so they give me great training because I can train now in my academy for a fight. I don't need to go to train with these other because I have guys who know exactly what I do, and I tell them exactly how to defend it, and I'm working that. And the better I make them, the better they're going to make me. So you were teaching at your dad's academy when you were 18? 15. 15. 15, I started teaching, but i wasn't running the academy i

wasn't teaching the adult classes at 16 i taught like once a week 17 i started teaching a couple more times a week by 18 i was fully teaching everything and running the whole academy wow so that's what you've been doing essentially for a living yeah wow that's crazy. So for the past seven years, that's been what you do? Well, since I was 18, I've been, since I was 15, I've been, all the money I make is from jiu-jitsu. So yeah. Wow. That's incredible. So now when you teach, how many days a week are you teaching? I teach once a day. Once a day? Yeah.

Do you have daytime classes that someone else teaches? Once a day. Once a day? Yeah. Do you have daytime classes that someone else teaches? Yeah, I teach once a day, and then some days I teach twice, and then some days I train the afternoon class. So I kind of scatter it out to where I can get to every, you know, I'll teach two days in the afternoon, and then I'll teach every night.

So some days on Tuesdays I teach twice a day. But, yeah, I teach a lot, and I also teach enough to where I don't overteach and get kind of – because I've taught before where I teach every class, and that's training, you know. You give a lot of your energy. You teach – you know, you give, give, give, and then you have nothing for yourself. So I've found my kind of remedy of how much I can teach to where I still feel good about myself and still have

enough to do the things I need to do. So I teach, you know, Monday to Thursday nights, and then I teach Tuesday and Friday mornings, and then Saturday is open training. And so I kind of give myself a time to not have those responsibilities. Now, how do you structure a class? Do you sit down and write out what your objectives are for each class do you structure them in on the fly like as you get there do you have specific things that you want to work on certain drills that you think that people are lacking like how do you every day is different and it depends a lot on my mood too um some days i want to do a specific training for me so i'll do like oh something that i feel like i need to work on

so then i'll teach that move and i'll something i i know i'm not the greatest at so i'll teach that move and then try to really research and see how i can make it better and then work on that move sometimes i see what the class needs and what what the what i feel like those people who are in that class how are they going to get the most out of that class so some days it's it you know, like that. Some days it's not. Some days I come up with stuff on the moment. Some days I'm kind of like thinking about something all day.

Every day is different. And, yeah, basically I never write anything down before. I kind of just do everything on the spot. And basically my goal when I'm teaching is to make my students better and to make them gain, you know. So how I'm going to do that I don't know I'm just going to kind of see and feel where where it is you know sometimes I have a lot more beginners I'm not going to teach a fancy or something that's took me 20 years to figure out I'm not going to teach it to somebody beginners so if there's a class and it's mostly beginners i'm going to teach them mostly beginner stuff if there's a class and it's these guys want

to all train then we will do all these trains so it depends it's an interesting aspect about jujitsu that's uh most people that have never trained will it's very difficult for them to grasp the depth of technique there's so many different techniques and there's so many different techniques that transition into other techniques. It's for the layperson to kind of understand it, it's almost impossible. It's when you see someone like yourself that has a deep knowledge of it and then teaches and trains and competes. You've got to kind of pay attention to it for many, many, many hours before you even see how deep the water is. Yeah, I feel like the more you learn

the more you realize you don't know you know and it can always be easier for you know like if if you're training and you're having trouble if it's difficult for you to beat your opponent then it's you're doing something wrong you know it should be easy you should be able to outsmart your opponent and it should be easy. Jiu-jitsu is easy, really. So if you're having a struggle with any kind of training session or anything, then that means you need to improve on something else to make your life easier. So I really don't think that there is ever like a cap where you're going to be like, oh, I know everything and it gets to such a small detail

and then it gets to like the timing of not only being able to know and to do what you do, but do it at the right time. So it's very complicated. So complicated. I've cried so many times trying to figure it out. Still to this day, I feel like, fuck, I'm only like maybe even halfway of where I want to be. Dennis McKenna, who's this very brilliant guy, had an interesting expression when it came to learning things. He said, the brighter the bonfire of enlightenment, the more surface area of ignorance is revealed.

So the more you know, the more you realize, God, there's so much shit to know. Yeah, that's true. And it sort of applies to everything. But I think one of the unique things about jiu-jitsu and one of the things that I've gotten, not just from myself, but from other people that I've inspired to begin jiu-jitsu and start training jiu-jitsu, is that they say that it makes everything else in their life better. That they say that the jiu-jitsu training, the difficulty of it, and the learning about themselves has helped them in virtually everything they do. learning about themselves has helped them in virtually everything they do.

Yeah, I definitely agree. You wouldn't give me a billion dollars today to take away the jiu-jitsu I know. There's no way. How I feel as a man, how I talk, and how I am is 100% because of jiu-jitsu. That's just something that I'm very grateful to have landed, where I landed in the footsteps of following my father's footsteps. And it's just a real, jiu-jitsu will for sure save your ass one way or another. Not necessarily a physical fight, but also being able to deal with yourself, know about yourself. able to deal with yourself know about yourself and and it really improve yourself as a whole because it's very easy to get trapped into like a daily life schedule and you kind of don't even tap to your potential you don't even tap into discovering yourself and realizing all these feelings

I feel alive when I could compete and when I train for a fight and when I know I got a fight and this is the deadline and if on this day you're going to show up whether you're going to be ready or not or whether you're sick or hurt or this day this is going to happen so to know that that day is going to happen and to be nervous and to train for that and to put so much energy and wake up early and do and drink this special juice and do this and and you know eat healthy and all this stuff um that only makes you you know more sure of yourself and when the day happens you know like then after so it makes me feel alive all these feelings that you get before you fight or when you're fighting or training for a fight it makes me feel alive and i love that Now, if you take away competition from my life, I will go crazy.

I will go crazy. I just wouldn't know what to do. Days would just seem like repetitive. I have no passion. I kind of lose my drive. I kind of just start going down a dark hole. So I think that jujitsu competitions really makes me feel alive, and every time before I feel nervous, and then after when i win or lose it

it's it's just a you only gain and when you know that you're gonna have a fight you gain because you know that you got to be at your best so you're always like how am i gonna get my better and you're never good enough and then it's just so it makes me feel real good? One of the things that I feel is missing in today's society is that people can get by really easily. All you have to do is show up for work, do your job, go home, eat food, go to sleep. You don't have to struggle to acquire that food. You don't have to really go through life or death scenarios on a daily basis. For most people, a life or death scenario is incredibly, incredibly rare. But those scenarios are sort of replicated inside the gym on a daily basis. When some jujitsu black belt is mounting you and he's choking the shit out of you.

Survival is a key thing. It's real. It's real. Like, you know, look, if I'm rolling and, you know, John Jock's on top of me and he's got an arm triangle and, you know, I might black out, I'm 100% certain he's not going to kill me. He'll tap me. You know, even if he chokes me out, I'll go to sleep.

I know that I'm going to survive. But you don't feel that at the time. When you are getting choked, that is life or death. It really truly is. Yeah, you can't fake those feelings that you feel when you're when you are getting choked that is life or death it really it really truly is yeah you can't fake those feelings that you feel when you're training and you put yourself through all these situations and i've been put to sleep many times in training you know and you know that's a crazy feeling you know it's a crazy feeling to like i don't want to tap and i don't want i'm gonna almost get out and i'm gonna almost and then you just wake up and your motherfuckers are laughing

at you so um and that's a that's a feeling that you cannot replace there's no other way that you're going to be able to feel that unless you personally are like living in that moment and no matter what there's nothing more intense than somebody trying to choke you you know you're natural so you you feel those feelings and and and how you deal with those feelings are going to really dedicate your life and that's how i kind of am able to to read people is how they deal how do they deal when they're under stress how do they deal when they're winning how do they deal when they're everything's going good are they the same person when they're losing them when they're winning how do they deal when everything's going good? Are they the same person when they're losing than when they're winning?

How do they deal when somebody's out? So I've kind of always been really curious to see how people are and how do they react? How are you going to react when somebody's beating you? How are you going to react when you're winning, when you're stronger? Or how are you going to react when somebody's weaker and you're just trying to help so i think it's a kind of a great um experience jiu-jitsu reveals character oh i know more about uh my students than they know about themselves you know i'll tell them exactly where they you know i know everything about them because i've trained with them, and I know what they feel, how they feel when they're feeling great,

how they feel when they're feeling weak, when they're winning. I know how to feel if you're a coward, if you have heart, if you have patience, if you have dignity. All these things are things that I can feel when I train with you. Just give me 5, 10 minutes to train with you, and I'll know more about you than probably you yourself, unless you're a very experienced person with yourself. And that's what I kind of judge my whole basis on,

is how I feel, how I judge somebody on how they train. I don't judge somebody on how they talk to me. You know, sometimes I'll get people who are super nice, and they're super, ah, yeah, and super respectful in person. And they're just the perfect person, right? And then when they train, there's this malice from them. And I don't, it's weird, you know. You're like, whoa, that malice is for real.

Malice towards other training partners. Or just not how they were when they were normal, you know. So when they're able to act, they're able to put this show on for whoever, but when they're training, there's no way you can hide your personality. And it goes the other way too. It goes other people.

Sometimes people are very cold and rude and that's not necessarily them. They just don't feel necessarily comfortable. When they train, they're respectful and they're trying to get better so there's a lot of different ways that you can kind of feel people out and i just kind of do my judgment on their training i don't really care what people of course i care but i don't judge too much on what you say and how you are of course i i feel it but when i train with you i'll

make my final decision and on that note that's a beautiful way to describe it. I love that. I love that statement. When I train with you, I'll make my final decision. That's so true, man. That's so true. You learn so much about someone when they train. Now, as far as your goals,

you've achieved world championship status in jiu-jitsu. What are your goals from now? My goal now is to focus on MMA and to be the best i can be in mma so that's my new mission and so you have aspirations to fight in the ufc yeah i mean i right now i think the japan is the bed is the better uh opportunity for me but you know whatever if it's ufc or you know i'd love to fight in you know the ufc has the best fighters and the best organization. So, of course, I would like to test myself against those guys. So you want to try other organizations first, get your feet wet in MMA,

and then eventually jump in? I don't know exactly, but all I know is right now I have Japan to negotiate with. And I know that, of course, wherever the best fighters are, that's where I want to be. What do you think about guys like Haja Gracie, for example? He's a perfect example of a guy who's a very high-level jiu-jitsu guy who just hasn't really been able to get that much going in MMA. I don't train with him, so I don't really know. I know that he's a legend in jiu-jitsu, and he's been able to really excel in jiu-jitsu.

But I don't train with him. I don't know necessarily how well he, what he does or anything. So I really hope that he's able to excel in MMA and I really hope that he's able to show what he's about and bring the game to his game. And I saw a fight with him with uh kennedy i think it was and i just felt like he wasn't able to find his place and he wasn't able to find um find himself really in the fight and i don't know if that's lack of training lack of advice lack of knowing what to do i don't know what it is really and i'm curious to see if that's going to happen with me too i think it's also tim kennedy't know what it is really and I'm curious to see if that's going to happen

with me too. I think it's also Tim Kennedy too. Tim Kennedy is a stud. Tim Kennedy is really good. He's an animal. Very good. He's really a dangerous guy

in a lot of ways. And there's a lot of stuff. Weight cuts and this and all that stuff. That's a big part too. So there's no real, I don't know and I'm not the owner

of the truth to be able to tell you what he's doing or why he's not or what. I don't know. He's different than me. He's a different size than me.

He's like a huge guy. I would love to see him just whoop ass. You know, I would love to see him do really well. But his style is a little different than mine. You know, he's bigger. I'm not. I have to 100% rely on my technique and my leverage and and uh we'll see what happens i'm really curious that's why i'm in this is to see and to prove to the people what i'm about so i hope

harger wins and i hope he does well and i hope he's able to find himself and really be able to be where he's at which is the number one place you know that's where he deserves to be were you there for any of uh hoyler's mma fights no he um he had some disastrous disastrous results in mma against some really high level guys where it seems like maybe um he took some fights that you know maybe wasn't quite prepared for um do you learn from anything like that when you see him fighting guys? He fought Kid Yamamoto, right? And Genki Sudo and real high-level guys. Yeah, I don't know.

I just... But he's another example of a very technical jiu-jitsu guy, very high-level. I'm curious, you know. I'm curious to see what I'm going to be about in MMA, really. For me to say, sit here and tell be and act like I know what I'm doing and like I know the rules and I like I know that the truth behind everything is bullshit because I don't and I mean it just like you're curious to see how I'm gonna do I'm curious to see how I'm gonna do too and I hope I do well and I hope I am able to to to do everything that I want

to do but I don't know I don't know if that's going to happen and that's why we're gonna that's why i go there and test myself is because if i knew i was going to win i probably wouldn't even fight well that's a beautiful aspect of what you're trying to do yeah the fact that you're embracing a challenge that you are you are gravitating towards the most difficult thing you could possibly do yeah and i can't wait i can't wait look at it see what you're saying you It's beautiful. The attitude's beautiful. Your thought process behind it, the reason why you're doing it in the first place. It's all the right stuff, man.

All the right stuff. Thank you. Well, listen, man. Thank you very much for an awesome conversation. Thank you, man. I look forward to seeing you compete in whatever you do, whether it's jiu-jitsu or MMA. I love your attitude. I love all the things you've said.

I think you've opened up a lot of people's ideas and a lot of people's minds on how profound your thinking is. And I think it's very inspirational. I appreciate it, man. I enjoyed it very, very much. Thank you, man. So if you are anywhere near Culver City,

that's where your academy is? Yep. Give us the address. And what's the... Do you have a website for the academy? Kroengracyjujitsu.com And my Instagram is reokid. Instagram,

reokid, kroengracyjujitsu.com. Go there, folks. Go, learn, train. Some serious legacy here

and hopefully we'll see you in MMA. I would love to call one of your fights in the UFC. That would be an honor. Me too, man.

Thank you. All right. A beautiful podcast is done, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you to our sponsors. Thanks to Squarespace. Me too, man. Thank you. All right. A beautiful podcast is done, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you to our sponsors. Thanks to Squarespace. Go to squarespace.com and use the code word Joe to save 10% off.

Go to onnit.com. Use the code word Rogan. Save 10% off any and all supplements. We'll be back tomorrow with David Seaman, and we will be back on Thursday with Brian Callen, Steve Ranella, and Doug Duren. We're going to talk about a hunting trip in Wisconsin and share some hilarious stories. And we've got a lot of good guests coming. A lot of good shit. So we'll see you guys soon, and much love.