The Joe Rogan Experience - #504 - Steve Maxwell

Episode Date: May 21, 2014

Steve Maxwell is an American fitness coach, physical educator, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor. He was named one of the top 100 trainers in the USA by Men's Journal.

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Yes! Steve Maxwell, my friend. Good to see you, man. Hey, great seeing you too, Joe. If you see, ladies and gentlemen, I'm sitting here in a chair with no back. Note my perfect posture. I just received this, uh, this, what do they call these things?

Ergonomic? Besides gay, don't say gay, because a lot of people call it gay. Like a Seiza chair, you know, the Seiza position, the samurai position. Yeah, which is supposed to promote good posture. Because I always find myself leaning in these chairs, like cracking and trying to find a, so this is, it makes you actively keep your back in a straight line, right? Is that the idea behind it? That's the idea.

You know, the chair is like the new cigarettes these days. Yes, that's what they say. Sitting is the new smoking. The new smoking. Well, so many people when they... It's devastating. If you have like bad posture and you sit in your chair, you really are putting tremendous stress on just a few of the parts of your spine, like a few of the discs. And those discs oftentimes can rupture.

They say that people get herniated discs from wearing a wallet. If you have a wallet in your pocket, like say if you're a cab driver or something, and you sit down all the time on a wallet, you can get a herniated disc from that. Well, think of the uneven pressure. Imagine your hip like totally... Imagine like wearing a shoe, right, with one heel higher than the other. Yeah. Right.

Well, it's sort of the same idea where you're sitting with one part of your hip above the other for years. Yeah. And, of course, the stress of just being so imbalanced is going to take its toll on your body. It's interesting because most folks would never think that that could be possible. You would just think, well, it's not hurting. Your body's fine. Like, it's not going to get injured. But your body's kind of like, it's all pliable and stuff.

Like, someone tried to explain to me that everyone has, like, sort of a boundary on how flexible they can be. And I was listening to this guy talk about this. Well, you know, it was kind of like dismissing. Some folks, you know, because I'm flexible, it was like, some folks just aren't that flexible. You know, you just happen to be naturally flexible. I'm like, man, I don't know about all that. I really don't think I'm naturally flexible. I just went through a lot of pain.

Like I forced myself to stretch in really painful positions for, you know, 30 seconds at a time, rest for a minute, 30 seconds at a time. And when I'm down there for those 30 seconds, that's hard to breathe. You're, you're experiencing pain. It's like, that fucking, a lot of people just aren't willing to do that, you know, but that's just another, just another example of how the body's kind of pliable. It's pretty pliable. I mean, you couldn't have like a lot of these, uh, body pliable i mean you couldn't have like a lot of these uh body realignment techniques that work so well like after release technique uh i'm most familiar with rolfing have you ever heard of this yeah we talked about last time we were here yeah i mean that it saved me yeah i i can't tell you the horrific injuries that rolfing

helped me get over uh you know from both wrestling jujitsu and so forth. So the body is very malleable, very pliable, and can be moved if a person knows, if the practitioner knows how to do it. Yeah, I went to Rolfing at the suggestion. One of the guys from my jiu-jitsu class who had a bulging disc and dealt with it was Rolfing, and he went to this guy, but the guy was really wacky. Well, they can be a little strange, some of these body work types, you know?

This guy was very wacky. He also believed that Bruce Lee could kill people with one punch, and he kept telling me this, that, you know, Bruce Lee could kill people with just one punch. He just, I go... Especially if it was a three-year-old kid or something. Yeah, if it was like a fucking baby or something, you could probably kill him with one punch. People have died with one punch, but it's not normal.

When a guy kills a guy with one punch, like this idea that he's got a gun in his hand, and he just, pow, pow, pow, just shoot people. So this guy was a little wacky, and he had some very interesting ideas about what he was doing. He would push down your ribs and think it would release your neck. And I wasn't exactly sure if there was a lot of logic. Well, there may be something to that, Joe, because of the way the connective tissue spirals through the body.

How does that work? Well, have you ever seen, what do they call that, the plasticized man, that exhibit? Yes, Body Works. The Body Works. Amazing. You ever see the fascial part of that? Yes. How the guy ever figured out the chemicals to dissolve away all other tissues

and leave the one intact that he wanted is just mind-blowing. But anyway, it's just like, it looks like DNA strands all spiraled up. So really, truly, your ankle bone is connected to your neck bone. And if one part of your body is out of really, truly, your ankle bone is connected to your neck bone. And if one part of your body is out of alignment, right, or, you know, stress or immobilized, it can cause some problems in other areas of the body. Well, this guy would like push down on your ribs with his elbows, like to loosen up things in your back. It'd be unbelievably painful just digging your, you know, his elbow into your ribs and moving things around.

And then he'd have you stand up and he'd look at you, see if you're leaning to the left or leaning to the right and where your posture is. I don't know about all that, but when he got down to business on your back and would break, you want to tap out. I mean, it's really bad. It's pretty bad. But, boy, when you leave, it's like everything is just kind of moving better. You feel taller? Yeah. Well, you feel – I don't ever feel tall.

I'm short. So are you, pal. I'm pretty short. But I definitely felt looser. I felt like more relieved. And I think that there's a lot of folks that go out there and they hit the gym. They lift weights. They'll do jiu-jitsu, do all

these different things, but they never get massaged. And I think they're doing themselves a huge disservice. I've said that to many, many jiu-jitsu guys. If you can, just at least once a week, just go to one of those Thai massages and have one of those people work on you. Or if you can, go to a real good sports medicine place and have someone do some deep tissue on you. It makes a world of difference. Well, I mean, think about the nature of the sport, right?

You're basically trying to hurt each other as much as possible. You're trying to inflict as much pain or choke the guy to sleep. So, I mean, for sure it takes a toll on the body. And you have to do these things in order to keep yourself in alignment because there's just no way you can do heavy combat sports like that without suffering. So you're going to definitely get knocked out of alignment, have things move that shouldn't be moved, and you need someone to kind of put them back in place. And a lot of times you can't do it on your own. Yeah.

I mean, the foam rolling and a lot of times mobility exercises work pretty good for that, self-treatment. But usually after a couple days and that stuff isn't working, that's when you know it's time to get a therapist to actually put stuff back in place for you. Do you ever work with lacrosse balls? Do you ever do any of that? I have, yeah. It's great. Lie on your back and then put the lacrosse ball under your back and roll like a bridge on the lacrosse ball.

Oh, sure. and then put the lacrosse ball under your back and roll like a bridge on the lacrosse ball. Oh, sure. And also there's ways you can put the ball against the wall and like roll into your shoulders and your back and so forth and really release a lot of stuff. But, you know, sometimes that just doesn't work, and that's when you know it's time to get to the therapist. Yeah, it's one of the things that I'm finding out through this last year, because this last year has been the year of this back injury that I had, which is way better now. I mean, now I'm lifting heavy kettlebells and doing all these different things.

No problem. No pain during the day. And, you know, I've only been doing this for like 10 minutes, this new chair, but I think this might help me too. But what I'm learning is how many people get injured and then don't take care of it. They just keep working. They keep training. They try to work around it, and it winds up getting really bad. Or ignore it.

Yeah. It's crazy, isn't it? It is very crazy because I'm running into a series of these guys. Once I started opening up about this, whether it's from the underground, guys that I know on Twitter, or guys that I know from jiu-jitsu class who now have atrophy. guys that I know on Twitter or guys that I know from jujitsu class who now have atrophy. And according to the doctor that administers that Regenequin, that blood spinning procedure that I had done to reduce inflammation, he says, once you have atrophy, like that's really bad. He's like, a lot of people think they're going to have atrophy and they're going to put it off and put

it off. It's like, if you have that for more than like, you know like X amount of months, a lot of times those nerves never get fully – they never return 100%. He said that there's surgery that they have to do to open up the pathways to alleviate the pressure on those nerves. And if that doesn't happen, if you don't do that, like you run the chance of having permanent atrophy of your muscles and having permanent loss of function of your limbs. Well, it blows my mind how people just don't pay attention to their body. Like pain is a signal that something's wrong. I mean, something's definitely wrong. Yeah.

And to ignore it and just keep pushing and driving through. And of course, you know, MMA guys, jujitsu guys, wrestlers, you know, gridiron football, rugby guys, they're pretty tough guys. And a lot of times they just are very stoic and love doing what they do and just don't want to stop and will just continue to drive themselves, you know, long after they should instead of just taking care of it. Yeah, and you've got to know when to tap out. You've also got to know that if you don't,

there's guys that, like that let themselves get injured. They're like, I'm not tapping. If you tap, you learn the same mistake than not tapping. The mistake is you got yourself into a bad position. Something went wrong. You got your arm caught. You either didn't respect the person or the person was better than you, and they set you up, and they got you. And they got you. And they got you and they got you and they got you and that's it you got got and there's a certain point

where you have to realize you got got and you got to tap because if you don't tap and you get your elbow snapped the a it might not ever be the same again and b you're going to be out for a long time a long time well it's one thing if you're in the world championships right yeah and you know you're a black belt and you're you know you're a fighter that's what you do or you're in the world championships. Right. Yeah, right. And you're a black belt and you're a fighter. That's what you do. Or you're in an MMA event. Right. On live TV.

Like John Jones versus Vitor Belfort. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you might risk getting your elbow snapped. Yeah. But for the average guy in the gym or even just like a local tournament, come on, man. Yeah. Once you're actually caught, the technique's already there. You already made the mistake. Yeah. Once you're actually caught, the technique's already there. You already made the mistake.

Yeah. So acknowledge the mistake, tap out, and forget about it. Just like, you know, it'd be like being thrown out in a softball game or whatever, right? But guys, they put too much emphasis on never getting caught or I can't get caught or whatever. But to get out of whatever hole you've been caught in, it's just zoo strength. It has nothing to do with technique. Yeah. You know, I mean, a good guy, if he gets you, you're got.

It's an interesting thing, isn't it? It's like people don't, I mean, they don't like getting thrown out in softball. Nobody likes when you hit a fly ball and someone catches it. But if it's a softball game and everybody's drinking beers and you're all having burgers, it's no big deal. But if you're on the mat and you're having burgers it's no big deal but if you're on the mat you're doing jujitsu and someone catches you with something it's there's so much pride and machismo involved in that position in that situation and if you can get out of it you

know yeah you didn't get me you know even though your arm's all fucked up like i've not tapped the things before and got out of it and been okay but But then my arm is fucked up for months. You know, like I had a bad elbow for probably three months because one guard pass I'm passing and you know, sometimes you pass, you leave your arm out a little bit to try to bait the guy to go for a Kimura so you can try to get over the knees. And as I'm passing and he locked in the Kimura, I'm like, oh shit, like this is tight. God damn it. And I'm trying to figure out, do I tap here? Do I keep going, pop, pop, you know, powered out of it? But then I couldn't do chin-ups.

Then you suffer. For, like, months. For months. For months. It's like, you know, it's like one of those deals where you feel the pain, maybe, like, just a little bit. But the problem with something like jiu-jitsu or even wrestling sometimes, it goes from zero to 100 in like just a brief blink.

Like heel hooks. And then by that point, it's already too late. So, you know, the risk-to-benefit ratio, you know, the idea, oh, I got out of it versus not being able to train for weeks or even months, just never makes it worth it and that's one of the big differences as you get older you know i got my age in the 60s no way man tap early tap off you get really smart and that's that's that's the key to doing jujitsu for a lifetime you just learn hey man you got me great job I don't care if it's a white belt, whatever.

Right. You got it. Okay, I made a mistake. Yeah, a strong white belt. Let's just keep playing, man. If you teach them the technique correctly and they get in the right position and your arm is deep in their crotch and they got your thumb up and they're pulling on it, they got it.

I mean, they might not be able to hang on to it because they're not familiar with the position. If you watch like Ronda Rousey, she's the best know? I mean, they might not be able to hang on to it because they're not familiar with the position. You know, like if you watch like Ronda Rousey, she's the best example, I think, of someone who knows how to hold an arm bar. Not just keep an arm bar, not just catch an arm bar, but hold it through all of the transitions. Like people can flip over, they can kick their legs over, they can try to roll, and she just keeps it. She keeps adjusting and she keeps just keeps it. She keeps adjusting and she keeps rolling with it. She's the best at that. And that's kind of the difference between like a real legit black belt like Rhonda and someone who's never done it before, or maybe

just learning the technique. And maybe you can kind of get out because if you just turn your arm a little bit and now, you know, your elbows up instead of down and there's no pressure on it, you can kind of, if you're good, you can kind of get out of the position. That sort of is the difference between, you know, maybe someone like maybe the difference between a purple belt and a black belt. The difference, you know, white belt and a purple belt. You know, there's like the ability to hang on longer, the ability to adjust. things about jujitsu is jujitsu is like the exact opposite of something that is easy and predictable and uh like a like a nautilus machine you know like a nautilus machine is like you push that thing forward it's going to go on the same track every time but when you're grappling with a person

even if you know how to execute the technique with you know the perfect leverage and all that people are moving and resisting and it's a little bit different every time and their foot's in a little different position every time and their arms are a little bit different. And it's so interesting in that sense where you're constantly adjusting. It's like a fingerprint or a snowflake. Every time you do it, it's just a little bit different. Tell you a funny story. As some of your listeners

know, I had the first jujitsu academy in the Eastern Seaboard, in the East Coast. Maxercise. Maxercise. And at one point, we had a guy by the name of Jeff Tomlinson, who was a Philadelphia Eagle football player. This guy was probably about 6'5", 275 at the time, if I remember correctly. Unbelievably strong and lean and slim. He was the darling of the Super Bowl, the year that the Eagles went to the Super Bowl in Jacksonville. He was called up. He had actually been released from the team,

but they had a couple injuries, and they called him in and went in there and caught a couple touchdown passes. Wow. So he comes to my jiu-jitsu class, and it's like, whoa, wait, man. Jiu-jitsu was designed to protect us from guys like you, man. You know, what do you do with a guy? I mean, just ungodly strong. Yeah.

He came to my kettlebell class. It's the first time I ever had to break out like a 48-kilogram kettlebell just to teach this guy swings. What is a 48-kilogram? What is that? About 100 pounds. That's 100? I mean, he was just like doing front up rises with, you know, front raises with his shoulders. He was just 48-kilogram. What does that weigh? About 100 pounds. That's 100? I mean, he was just like doing front up rises,

front raises with his shoulders. He was just so ridiculously strong. So he gets going with one of my brown butts at the time, a fellow by the name of Ron Hoxton, who lives in Hawaii. He teaches in Hawaii now, but at that time, Ronnie was a brown butt. And Ron gets him, of course, in an arm lock, right, from the mount.

And the guy literally does a Turkish's get-up with Ronnie. Literally lifts him up. How much does Ronnie weigh? Probably about 148 pounds at the time, 150. And, you know, this guy's like 275. He literally does a turkey's get-up and is putting Ron's head through the ceiling. And I remember screaming because, you know, this guy was like really an important part of our team. Don't hurt.

Don't break Ronnie. Don't break Ronnie. Put him down. Put him down. It was insane, man important part of our team. Don't break Ronnie. Don't break Ronnie. Put him down. Put him down. It was insane, man. Just insane just how strong some people can be. Especially people that are like real super athletes like football players, guys that have been slamming into other 300-pound men for years

and hitting sleds and doing power cleans. Just all sorts of stuff, man. Their body is just so designed to just pick up and move heavy things and the average person like i remember um i was at uh in phoenix one night and i don't know who this guy was he's some pro athlete i have no idea who he was but he was um at this gym that i was working out at and um it was like we were all like little children like little children wandering around the gym. And this giant showed up.

He wasn't even like a giant amongst men. I mean, he was so big. I mean, I don't know. He was some pro football player, but he was it was so big. I felt like a tiny child, like not like, well, that's a big man and I'm a small man. Like I wasn't even the same species of this guy. He's probably like six, seven, 6'8", somewhere around then, 370 pounds-ish, just enormous man.

And you see a person like that, and you go, all the self-defense stuff is all out the window. Strength and size does matter. Of course it matters. It's that big. The first time I realized this, there was a guy that I worked with. The first Nautilus gym in the Philadelphia area. It's actually the first one in Pennsylvania.

And there was a guy, I think his name was Ron Chandler or Rick Chandler. He played center for the New York Jets. It was the first time I was exposed to an NFL football player. And I had just no idea how unbelievably fast and strong and powerful these guys are. And, of course, I was wrestling for the college wrestling team. I thought I was pretty badass. And I probably weighed – I was a lot heavier back then, maybe about 177. And we get to messing around, and this guy literally just grabbed me by the ankle

and picked me upside down. I'm not kidding. Just holding me at arm's length like I was a child. And it was just, whoa. I just never felt such power and such strength in all my life. And, I mean, that's, you know, let's face it. That's pretty much the elite of the elite, right, as far as power athletes go? Yeah.

They all go to the NFL, man, where they can make some money. The only other thing I would think of would be those guys that do those strongman competitions. Those guys are pretty ridiculous. Pretty crazy strong. Have you noticed that there's that one guy it's not Magnus. What is the guy's name that's been fighting in MMA? God, what is

his name? Oh, the German guy. Yeah. No, he's Polish. Manford. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. God damn it. Oh, Pudzianowski. Pudzianowski. Yeah.

Huge guy, but not doing so well in MMA. You know, he got manhandled by Tim Sylvia, which was a fascinating fight because Tim Sylvia, obviously a very skilled guy. I don't know why Pudzianowski took that fight. A lot of people, Tim Sylvia has sort of an awkward build. He's kind of pigeon-toed. He's an enormous guy. You know, Tim is, I think he's like 6'7 or something like that. Tim's a very big guy. But he's also got a lot of extra body fat on him. And you could pull the video up. There's a video of them fighting. And, you know,

And you could pull the video up. There's a video of them fighting. And, you know, Pudzianowski just, it was just so outclassed. It was like, who let you fight a former MMA champion, a former UFC champion? Well, you know, a lot of the times these guys, they have a lot of confidence. Yeah. And, you know, he is a real master at his particular sport. But that's where they make their mistake, thinking that somehow that mastery in one thing is going to make them better in something else.

And, okay, if I were to fight that guy, it would be a nightmare for me, right? But when you get against somebody your own size and your own weight, everything changes for these guys. Look at him. And that's, by the way, he's lost a lot of weight. He used to be way bigger when he was just doing strongman stuff. Because when he was just doing strongman stuff, he was just all muscle.

But Tim's a big fucking guy, too. And Tim is really long. And Tim just beat his ass, man. Plus he has the requisite skills, you know. I mean, the skill set is everything in a martial art or a combat sport like that. Yeah. Skill will so often overcome just raw strength and raw power. No, a hundred percent. Keep playing it. It's interesting to watch because Pudzianowski is like so physically strong, but all that gets countered by the technique of Sylvia. I mean, if these guys were in a weightlifting contest,

you know, he probably might be able to lift twice as much as Sylvia. But he ragdolls Tim to the ground. What does Tim do? He just gets back up. Now Pudzianowski's going to start getting tired. Very exhausting, taking a big guy down like that, over and over and over and over again like that. And so disheartening if you blow your entire wad,

taking a guy down, and then he just springs right back up to his feet. And a lot of these guys, they just have no clue on just the endurance aspect of this game. No. There's nothing like it. Plus the adrenaline dump. I mean, imagine. It's like one of his first fights. He's in front of thousands and thousands of people.

I mean, you get that adrenaline dump, and it just is so exhausting. Yeah. He turned purple like a grape as the fight went on. You start to see it now. What is that from? All the blood is rushing to your skin? Is that what it is? Well, yeah.

And a lot of times these guys aren't breathing properly. Right. They're breath-holding, and there's a—we talked about this last time, the Vesava sink, where there's a partial glottal closure, and're making these grunts and their blood pressure's building up and it, you know, that in itself, not knowing how to breathe, very exhausting. Yeah, that was the thing, one of the things that separated Hickson

from a lot of the other jiu-jitsu guys was his work with yoga and, you know, that video Choke, the DVD Choke, the documentary, it's fascinating. Fascinating in a lot of ways, but really fascinating watching him do that diaphragm thing. The diaphragm. You know, his son, Krohn, was on here, and he was explaining the diaphragm thing

and talking about how much emphasis he puts on breathing in his training. That stomach churning is supposedly really good for digestion. It's like an internal massage for your organs and so forth. Yeah, it seems like it would be. The breath he was using is called breath of fire or bellows breath. But it's interesting, you know, there's different – in Ayurvedic medicine, which was the original medical system in the world, it's like a 5,000-year-old system of medicine,

there's different constitutional types. And there's different types of breathing for each constitutional type. So for your listeners out there, not everyone should be doing that particular type of breath set. It can build up too much heat in certain constitutional types. Really? Yeah. There's 13 different pranayamic breath types, and they're all therapeutic. The breath is like medicine if it's applied properly for regaining balance in your body and your system. There's the vata, the pitta, and the kapha. And Hexen's a kapha and that type of breathing system is fantastic for him. But it wouldn't be so good for me. There's other types of breathing for me. Well, how would you know who you're...

Well, you've got to study this stuff. But what would make you different from him? Your constitutional type is set at birth. Just like, you you know you've heard of ectomorph endomorph mesomorph sort of a similar classification and there's different uh ways that you i mean if you if if you want to actually find out online you can google this and find out what type of constitutional type you are and then certain uh dietary uh uh for, for me, being a pitta, very heat, I produce too much heat, excess heat. Eating spicy food, for example, is a horrible thing for a guy like me. Really? Yeah. What is this based on? Ayurvedics. It was empirical evidence that, I mean, the angels weren't stupid. They didn't have our technology, but they did have the power of observation.

And these people, you know, just imagine how they figured out herbal medicine. Right. Which is around a long time before the pharmaceutical companies. So what would I Google if I was trying to look this up? Just Ayurvedic medicine, A-U-R-Y-V-E-D-I-C.

And then look at the dosha types, or D-O-S-H-A, dosha. And there's online tests that you can take. One of the first books I ever read was called Body, Mind, and Sport by a guy by the name of John DeYard, who was an American chiropractor and Ayurvedic physician and does consultation. And he had a little test in the book. This was back, oh, I don't know, probably like 25 years ago I took this test and discovered that I indeed was a pitta.

And how did you discover it? Well, there's this whole line of questions, and you're able to find out your type. But I've also been to Dr. Ladd's clinic in New Mexico, in Albuquerque. And he's an Ayurvedic physician. Vasad Ladd, he's a well-respected Ayurvedic physician. And he also has a medical degree. And he has a clinic also in Mumbai, India. And there, I also was typed by professionals. And there I also was typed by professionals. And I did what they call a panchakarma, which is a cleanse. I pretty much didn't eat anything but this real thin type of soup.

It's just like a broth for a week. And then had all sorts of treatments. It's a real good cleansing. Helped the body detoxify. You know, this environment that we live in, especially in the United States, we're just beset with all sorts of pollutants, air, water, toxins in the food.

Your body is capable of ridding itself of all that stuff once it's not burdened by digestion. Huh. These questions are very strange. Yeah, well... What best describes how you act under stress? But see, your emotions are also geared towards In other words, your constitutional type will affect your emotional outlook And even your mental outlook

So it's body, mind, and spirit They're not looking just at physical symptoms like Western medicine They're looking at the whole package What makes Steve Maxwell Steve Maxwell? What makes Joe Rogan Joe Rogan? western medicine they're looking at the whole package you know what makes steve maxwell steve maxwell what what makes joe rogan joe rogan so it's looking at the total package the way you think you know your belief systems your emotional system your your physical uh and no one's just one type just one constitutional type of course we're mixtures of all these things. And sometimes you can have an imbalance and actually manifest different aspects of other constitutional types.

This is fascinating. It is very fascinating. And it is the oldest medical system. It's been around for a long time. Yeah, I'm filling out this form. I'm trying to find out what I am. I'm just guessing, just from looking at you, that you're probably a kapha, but perhaps not. It'd be interesting. A kapha. Yeah.

I like to be active. It's hard to sit still. Boom. Enjoy activity that has a purpose, especially competitive. Well, that's true, too. I like leisurely activities. I like all three of those. How do you describe that?

I'll go with B, competitive. Which best describes your walking style? Got a walking style? Yeah, there's a walking style. What's the choices? I walk quickly. I have a determined walk. I walk slow and steady at a leisurely pace.

Slow and steady at a leisurely pace. I was watching your gait when you were walking out to the car. Okay. You walk like a very strong, confident kind of guy. That would be your comfort. Okay. Which best describes your mood? My mood changes quickly.

My moods change slowly. My moods are mostly steady. Probably steady. Seeming like a pretty steady guy. Yeah, a pretty steady guy. Which best describes your memory? I learn quick and forget quickly. That's me.

I have a good memory. But I have a good memory too. I learn slowly, but I have a good long-term memory. Well, you have a hell of a mind for facts and figures. But only if I care. That's the problem. Yeah, well, I mean, isn't it that way it is with everything? Because, I mean, some of the statistics you come up with on the fighters during the show,

you know their coaches, where they trained, their records. Joe, your memory is like a freaking elephant, man. But that's only if I care. Well, of course. If you ask me about something that I don't care about. People always ask me, when you're talking about fights, are you basing this off notes? No.

Almost all of the stuff that I talk about during the fights is just stuff that I remember, if I remember fights. It's just mind-blowing. But I do have a sheet that's in front of me that gives me a fighter's record, but it's very rare that I reference it. It's just mind blowing. But I do have a sheet that's in front of me that gives me like a fighter's record, but it's very rare that I reference it. It's almost all of it. But that's just because I'm a fan of the sport.

But if you ask me things about, I don't know, the Oliver North trial or something like that. But I mean, you know, your mind only has but so much capacity. Yeah. So, I mean. Organization. What best describes your organization style? I'm good at getting things started, but not at getting things done. I'm very organized, and I can focus on a project from start to finish.

I need help getting things started, but I am good at seeing things through to the finish. I'm neither, I'm none of those things. Well, sometimes, you know, sometimes you can be all those things in different situations. Yeah, all right. We'll just go with A. All right, congratulations. You finished the quiz. Wait a moment while we get your results.

Okay. Be curious. I mean, there's so many different tests for this out of anything. Who the fuck am I? Come on. Come on. I'm trying to come up with the answer. Okay, this is indicative of a VEDA Okay, this is indicative of a Veda type.

This is indicative of a Peta type. This is indicative of a Kapha type. This is indicative of a Kapha type. This is indicative of a Peta. I got all of them, man. You're a Peta Kapha. I'm all of them. Well, everyone is part of each one, but you're going to be predominantly one or the other.

It doesn't say, though. But there's much more in-depth tests. This sucks. You went through all this? It might have been a bogus test. Well, yeah, it's probably some westernized test, right? Yeah. I mean, some American version of the ancient tests.

Obviously, it's in English. The translations are probably a bit funky. I was actually typed by a professional in the profession. I found it to be quite true for me personally. That's interesting. So you went to an actual specialist to do this. Yeah, I did. And when you find out your body type or you find out—

There's a dietary regimen that goes along with this, and there's even exercise that's more beneficial or less beneficial for different types. And is the idea of balancing yourself? Yeah, you want to keep as balanced as possible. And you have to be very careful with imbalances. This is what manifests all sorts of illnesses, diseases, and so forth. So food choices, exercise choices. Like, for example, I mentioned spice for me is just a terrible thing because I don't need to produce any more heat in my body.

Excess heat would cause my joints to deteriorate and cause osteoarthritis and all sorts of stuff like that. Really? And that can be caused by spicy food? Yeah, by excess heat in the system. That's great. But I didn't know that spicy food actually does generate heat. Creates inflammation. Oh. Oh.

Hmm. But see, for certain dosha types, like the vata or the kapha, it can be quite stimulating. They need that. Well, what type would be the type that eats a lot of hot food? Well, vatas, for example, are kind of skinny, and they have an asymmetry to their body. So that can be really good for them to help energize them. For a kapha, they tend to put on weight, unwanted body fat and weight. And sometimes the more spicy type foods would be good for helping rev up their metabolism.

Like the chili and that type of stuff. That's been shown to. And they even put that in some of the fat loss formulas. Maybe you guys actually sell one of those fat loss formulas. No. You don't have any fat burners on your. I don't believe in any of that shit. Well, I mean.

I really have a problem. Coffee's your best to me. Coffee? Yeah, I mean, just your caffeine. Well, I just think that that way out, that everyone's looking for fat burners, it's this one pill fix thing to a very complex issue. The excess body fat issue is a very complex issue. It's very complex.

I mean, it's, you know, emotional, very issue is a very complex issue. It's very complex. I mean, it's, you know, emotional, very emotional with a lot of people. Sure. There's so much going on. So much going on. Yeah. And the idea that you're going to fix that with a pill. With a pill. But see, that's one of the problems I have with a lot of supplements. You know, I know you sell supplements. I'm not, and there was. No, I want you to speak as freely as possible. Yeah, I mean, there was a time when I had like almost a $300 a month habit, seriously. A couple things that I've come to the conclusion. Once I stopped, I didn't notice a damn bit of difference.

Right. But there is a difference between just trying to go for general health and trying to maximize your potential as a competitive athlete. When you're trying to maximize your competitive potential, okay, maybe this might give you like a 1% or 2% edge or something or 3%. But if you're elite, that's maybe all you need to be a champion or win the world or something like that. Yeah, that's one extra punch landed, one extra takedown defended.

But for general health, I mean, there's not an animal on God's earth that needs supplements. If you think about it, nature provided everything that every animal on the planet needs. You know, think of like how strong a bull gorilla is or a water buffalo or a lion. I mean, everything they need is provided by nature. Right. And us as the highest form of animal on the planet, I mean, what makes us think that God didn't provide this stuff or nature didn't provide for us? People have to be willing to eat it, and they're not. They want to TV dinners and nuke their food in the microwave and so forth.

nuke their food in the microwave and so forth. And, you know, we were talking about how, you know, the damaging sugar is last time and how delicious it is and, you know, and these fast food manufacturers, they're pretty insidious. I mean, they know how to draw up a taste that is almost literally irresistible. Some people even say addictive. Well, it's certainly addictive. There's sugars in certain foods and certain fast foods that sugar has been shown to be one of the most addictive foods you can ever eat. Oh, my God. It's like freaking crap.

Incredibly addictive. But the problem is when people are taking a lot of supplements somehow, they have a tendency to think that it's okay to eat that stuff. Oh, yeah. And there's a lot. See, they feel that somehow they're getting it in their pills and their potions. Like they're covering their bases. And their powders and all that. And there's a lot less desire to go out and eat a proper – they don't have the incentive to go out and eat a really good diet.

I mean I do online personal training and diet fat loss programs. I'm shocked when I see the food logs of some of the guys that send it in. I mean there's no raw fruits or raw vegetables on their menus. It's like, wow, how could you not at least have some? Yeah, there's a lot of folks out there. And it's all cooked, prepared foods, canned, bottled, stuff in plastic wrappers. It's like, wow. But that's what's happened to us in modern society.

rappers. It's like, wow. But you know, that's what's happened to us in modern society. So yes, probably there's no real harm in taking supplements for regular people. Well, there's certain supplements that you're just not going to get the right amount with foods, like fish oil, like omega-3 fatty acids and things along those lines. Like you would have to eat a shitload of fish every day to get the proper amount, to reduce inflammation, to eat a shitload of fish every day to get the proper amount, to reduce inflammation, to increase cognitive abilities, to help muscle growth. There's a lot of benefits of fish oil that's been shown. And it's incredibly difficult to get that amount of fish oil just from eating fish unless you're eating salmon, fatty salmon all day.

Or getting fish that isn't polluted with mercury and all that crap. I had a problem once. I went to a doctor. I get blood work done just to see where I'm at and check to see if I'm healthy. Make sure there's no issues in advance. And the doctor told me that I had arsenic in my body. And I was like, what?

Like I'm being poisoned? Like what are you talking about? He's like, it's very low level. Do you eat a lot of fish? And I said, I eat sardines. I was eating like a can of sardines a day, sometimes two And I said, I eat sardines. I was eating like a can of sardines a day, sometimes two cans a day. I love sardines. And he was like, well, stop doing that because sardines live at the bottom of the ocean and they collect a lot of heavy metals and a lot of

pollution. And I stopped and it was gone. But I was getting arsenic poisoning from sardines, which is crazy. It's a shame because sardines are delicious. They're a great source of sulfur amino acids, which has been tied into anti-aging. So it's a shame. But, yeah, our food sources are being ruined on the planet. Slowly but surely. Slowly but surely. So there's no escape from it. But that's one reason why I like to do the fasting.

Or remember I mentioned the panchakarma, this detox thing. Your body is able to throw a lot of these toxins off under the right conditions. How much water do you drink in a day? You know, I don't even measure it, Joe. I just drink when thirsty pretty much, you know? So you don't like have like a big jug that you can- No, no. I think a lot of that was overplayed because- Do you? Yeah. I just don't think it's all that necessary to drink all that much. Yeah.

When people say – it's a weird thing. Like they say you should have X amount of glasses of water a day or a gallon of water a day. What is that based on? I have no idea. But I do know that one of your best sources for hydration is with raw fruits and raw vegetables. And when you're getting a lot of this type of plant stuff, you're getting plenty of hydration. Right, from fruits and vegetables. Now, people that don't have any of that stuff,

yeah, they probably do need to drink a little bit more. But, yeah, I mean, for the most part, there's a lot of myths that are perpetrated out there for no rhyme or reason, you know? And you just wonder, where does all this stuff come from? Yeah, the water one was a big one. Like, guys would walk around with these giant jugs of water and they would say that the average person walks around dehydrated all the time. But I would watch them and they'd be peeing every 20 minutes.

And I was like, well, you're flushing your body out of toxins. Like are you sure? Are you sure? It sounds to me like you're just overloading your kidneys with a lot of water for no good reason. But is that thing, you know, where everybody's always worried about the toxins, flushing toxins out. I'm going to go to the sauna. It's going to flush out the toxins. And I'm going to drink water. It's going to flush out the toxins. I'm doing a cleanse. It's going to take care of my toxins.

Like, there's all these... Well, there's no sense worrying about it for sure because, you know, the worry won't change a damn bit. I am in favor of overheating baths. I think it can be a really good thing for longevity. I mean it's been since the time of – American Indians had the sweat lodge. The Russians and the Finns had their saunas. The Romans were very big on steam, the Turks and so forth, the Japanese. Everyone's used heating

therapies for producing a good sweat. And if you think about it, the skin's the largest organ in the body. And you can eliminate a lot of waste out through the skin, through perspiration. And when you stimulate the skin to sweat, you can sweat out a lot of stuff. Have you ever heard of infrared sauna? Yes. Well, you know, infrared sauna is so good at helping the body detoxify that drug and alcohol clinics actually install infrared saunas to help people kick drugs and alcohol and cigarettes and so forth. That's incredible. Yeah. I mean, it's tried and true. I mean, it does work. And infrared saunas are way different than the old saunas we used to sit in as wrestlers, you know, just the hot box. These infrared saunas, the temperature doesn't have to be nearly as high.

Man, my God, they feel so good. The heat's very penetrating. And it's really good for recovery after hard training and so forth. You'll have to try one sometime. You might even want to look into putting a little mini one in your house or something. I am, actually. My wife has one that she climbs into like a sleeping bag. It's in some weird sort of infrared sauna, and she heats up.

Oh, wow. She loves this thing. That's cool, man. Dr. Rhonda Patrick, one of the people that I've had on the podcast as a regular, she's fascinating and she's got so much knowledge. And one of the things that she wrote a paper that was recently published, it's on the benefits of sauna and really incredible, on hypothermic conditioning on muscle growth. That's fascinating.

Yeah, and she was saying, you know, I would really not do it justice. Oh, that's fascinating. hormone production, and the effect of heat stress on the brain. Really, really interesting stuff. Heat stress has been shown to increase the expression of brain-derived neurotropic factor. Whoa. More than exercise alone, when used in conjunction with exercise. This is important because this brain-derived neurotropic factor increases the growth of new brain cells as well as the survival of existing neurons. An increase in neurogenesis is thought to be responsible for enhancing learning. Wow. It's incredible. So exercise in sauna enhances learning. Well, like I said,

the ancients were not stupid people. You know, we're so smug with our technology. Yeah, we are, but you know, you take the average person and take him 50 miles out in the wilderness and let him go, he would probably die of fright. He wouldn't even be, you know? Yeah. And you take a child even as little as 200 years ago, and they would be perfectly comfortable living in their environment. You know, that's what technology has done for us. We can't even go from point A to point B without our iPhone or our GPS or... can't even go from point a to point b without our iphone or our gps or yeah right i wonder what's going on with that um you know when you look at people that used to live a long time ago and you used to be able to survive out in the woods and survive without technology and then you look at you ever watch that show naked and afraid i have not it's a fascinating show because they take

people and they take their clothes off and then they leave them in the jungle. Oh, I did hear about this. It's the most fucking ridiculous show ever. Well, wait. How the hell do they show that kind of nudity on TV? They just blur out their crotch. Okay. They blur out their breasts and blur out their crotch. And, you know, it's a couple, a man and a woman.

And I don't know if they have any sex. I would imagine. Did they know each other before the show? Nope. Oh. Yeah. And also they're naked together. Now would imagine. Did they know each other before the show? Nope. Oh. Yeah. They're naked together. Now we're going to have to tune in.

Yeah. It's a fascinating show. Well, fascinating depending upon who the contestants are. They have, I believe it's 21 days, which is the most amount of time you can go without any food. So I think they put them in a place that has an abundant amount of water so they could find water. They don't put them in the desert for 21 days. They'd be fucking dead in two, you know.

They're probably dead in one. You know, you put someone in Death Valley with no clothes for a day. You're not going to make it. No water, no clothes. You got 24 hours if you're lucky. You might not even make it 24 hours, right? When it gets to 128 degrees out there. Yeah, I mean, you could just heat stroke even with water.

Yeah. I mean, you could just heat stroke even with water. So, you know. Yeah. So these people are out there and, you know, they have to build shelter because they're in the rainforest. So there's all these fucking bugs and, you know, they see bullet ants. Bullet ants are some of the most painful stings known to man. They say it's like getting your hand slammed in a car door for 24 hours. That's what it feels like if one bites you. Well, I would definitely be naked and afraid of us around the freaking bullet

ants, man. Well, they have these rites of passages they do with certain indigenous tribes in the Amazon where they take what looks like oven mitts and they embed bullet ants in these oven mitts all throughout the... They stick their stingers through so they're trapped and so they

just keep stinging. And then they make these guys wear these gloves and get the shit stung out of them by these bullet ants. And there was one show, I forget what the show was, but the host actually took part in the ritual himself and put these gloves on. On his hands, he got his hands all stung. Sounds crazy, man. And you just watch him just drop to his knees

in the most intense agony, unimaginable agony, hands he got his hands all strong and sounds crazy man you just watch him just drop to his knees and just in the most intense agony unimaginable agony and it just lasts forever lasts like hours and hours and hours of intense intense agony but in getting through it it um not only is it um like a rite of passage but it also is what they call, there's certain tribal cultures where they do not have access to psychedelics. So this is like a psychedelic kind of thing because the neurotoxins and the venom kind of puts you in some kind of altered state? There's a little bit of that, and there's also the, your body develops so much resistance to all the venom that there's probably some sort of a serotonin boost. And there's also,

there's things called, they're called, there's certain rituals where it's not called a psychedelic, it's called like an ordeal poison. An ordeal poison is like what tribes where they don't have access to psychedelics, oftentimes they come up with these rituals based on poisoning. So they'll give someone a poison that gets you to the brink of death, like gets you like to you're sweating, you're dying, and then it releases you when your body processes it. Like the ayahuasca almost. But not, because ayahuasca is not poison.

Ayahuasca doesn't harm you, and in fact, ayahuasca— Well, it does produce that vomiting, that severe vomiting. Yeah, but that's just because it's disgusting. Yeah, it's vile. It's just a gross—and you're taking all this plant matter, and it's just a horrible foul taste, and purging anything that might be in your stomach. horrible foul taste and purging anything that might be in your stomach. But the active ingredients in ayahuasca, not only is it not toxic, but it's also one of the most transient drugs ever exhibited

or ever observed in the body. Because of the fact that it's a normal human neurotransmitter, your body knows how to process it, so your body just can bring you back to baseline very quickly. You know, I bought some of that stuff one time. Ayahuasca? Yeah, I was going to do it, then I got scared. Well, I read where you really should have a shaman that really knows this stuff,

and I thought, you know what, what if I had a bad trip in this stuff, man? Where were you? But I was living in my camper van at the time out in Arizona in the middle of the desert. How long ago was this? It was like, what, about three and a half, four years ago. And I had read about ayahuasca from Stuart Wild, who said that this is where the spiritual teachers got to go at some point, you know, once you've reached a certain level. And he was talking about ayahuasca.

And I thought, that sounds really fascinating. And it was ridiculously easy to buy over the internet and have mail ordered right to my PO box. So was it a fully brewed mail? No, no, no, no. It was just the plant matter, like the dried herbal stuff in a sealed plastic bag. And then I looked at it, and then I read about the processing. And I thought, you know what? I probably should just wait on this and just wait until someone that really knows what he's doing.

But they have those ayahuasca trips that you can take down to Brazil and even Mexico. We're thinking about starting a treatment center in Peru because my partner from Onnit, Aubrey, has been down there so many times, has worked with these guys so many times. We're thinking about setting up a program because it's legal there. Yeah, for sure. Setting up a program because it's legal there. Yeah, for sure. Setting up a program through on it where people can travel down there and they know that they'll have good accommodations,

a legit shaman, safe environment. And, you know, we've had so many requests from so many people that we would love to send you down there. I might have to take you up on that. Give me a full report.

I would love to go with you. Come on, man. Let's do it. I'm down. report. I would love to go with you. Come on, man. Let's do it, man. Let's do it. I'm down. I'm down with it. I'm totally into it. That would be fascinating.

I've been thinking about this for years, you know. Yeah? It's just really something that just sounds fascinating to me. Because apparently people have some really amazing psychedelic experiments and just kind of expands the consciousness. And they have some pretty uh pretty intense experiences but you would definitely want to be with someone that that has taken people through it before yeah definitely not something to mess around with on your own man well it's also uh the environment that you do it in is really important too you don't want to be in an unsafe environment you

don't want to be tripping your paws off and then something goes wrong. There's no one there that can handle everything. You don't want to be caught in a forest fire while you're tripping on DMT. I've only had the synthesized version of it, the hard version of DMT. I haven't had the orally active version of it, which is what ayahuasca is. And again, you're talking about the ancients knowing their shit. They weren't fools. They figured out how to combine two different plants to create this mixture. See, DMT is not orally active. If you took DMT in an oral form, monoamine oxidase, which is produced in your gut, would kill the DMT.

So they figured out how to take the leaves of certain plants, which have DMT, or the vines of certain plants, which have DMT, and then the leaves of other plants, which have harming, which is a natural MAO inhibitor, and then they brew it together in this really sort of complicated process and develop this ayahuasca, which essentially becomes an orally active version of the drug that I took. I just smoked it. When you smoke it, it's intense. It's very fast. It hits you within 15, 20 seconds seconds and it only lasts about 15 minutes. It's like a, just a quick shot to the

center of the universe. The most amazing, unbelievable psychedelic experience you could ever imagine. I describe it as mushrooms times a million plus aliens. It's unbelievably intense. Ayahuasca usually is a little less intense, but it's a prolonged experience. Yeah, it's many hours. It can take several hours, yeah. I read in Outside Magazine actually about an ayahuasca trip that was organized. There's a lot of them now. And out of 10 people, two people didn't get anything.

They just got sick and that was it. And then eight of the 10, one had a bad trip, like freaked. And then the other seven had fantastic consciousness-raising experience. I wonder what makes people trip because the shamans say that the people that have these bad trips and what's going on is that they're trying to fight it. They're trying to control the situation. Your ego doesn't want to let go and you try to resist and then it just sort of chips away at your inner soul and finds out you know what's causing this resistance and then penetrates it and freaks you the fuck out and you know you can't you can't wrestle with god

and that's essentially what you're doing when you're you're having these psychedelic experiences you're trying to wrestle with the creative force of the very universe itself and this ego thing that people have, oh, don't worry, I can handle it. There's so many people that have that I can handle it thing. Ridiculous, overqualified confidence for no fucking reason. For no reason. For no reason.

There's no reason why you think you should be able to handle it. But you run into it everywhere. By going in there a little afraid, you probably have a great experience. And humble. And humble. Afraid, humble, and say, please be nice to me i'll give up you know i'll i submit myself to you and then you're gonna get through it it's not a toxic thing it's not a poisonous thing the people you know terence

mckenna had a um a line the only fear is that you may die from astonishment yeah it's because we're all going to die not a bad bad way to go, man. Yeah. Well, that's what's really crazy is they believe that the experience that you have while you're taking DMT is the exact experience that people have when they're dying. Because when you're dying, your brain produces dimethyltryptamine. It's produced during REM sleep. Well, it's in so many different plants. The reason why your gut produces this monoamine oxidase, or one of the reasons, it probably serves many purposes, but is that dimethyltryptamine is in a lot of different plants. So these plants that we eat would give us DMT.

You would get high off of certain plants. It's in thousands of different plants. You could extract it from just regular grass. F, phalaris grass has DMT in it, like a lot of it. And that's why certain sheep will eat grasses that have DMT in it, and they die, like, immediately. Like, you'll find them, like, in the fields. They'll run across a patch of

grass that has DMT in there. Bink! Legs up, little feet twitching. So, like, what might be toxic to a sheep, not so much to a human. Not at all. Not at all. Yeah, DMT is not toxic at all to humans, but to sheep, it just... Wow, that's pretty fascinating.

Yeah, kills them. Don't be a sheep. But, you know, going back to what we had mentioned earlier about the ancients not being stupid, you know, that's basically what Ayurvedic medicine was based on in India. I mean, these people had amazing powers of observation. And this is, you know, pre-science. Right. We put so much faith in science.

But, you know, sometimes you have to think about these so-called studies, you know, with the agendas and so forth. Well, there's definitely a lot of that, right? And, you know, of course, you know, some monetary incentive. How many times have we seen drugs being totally promoted only to find out later when they're recalled like all these horrors like thalidomide babies back in the 70s or whatever? But that happens a lot, man. Less so now than it used to. Less so now than it used to, but it still happens.

Well, there's more transparency now than ever before, so that makes it much more difficult. But do you remember Guy Metzger, the UFC fighter? Yeah, sure, sure. You know, he got a stroke from Vioxx. Whoa. Yeah, Vioxx, he was having arthritis issues with his knees, you know, years of martial arts training.

Sure, sure, sure. A lot of guys have problems with their knees. They're very common. Chris Weidman recently had both his knees scoped, and before that, he had gone through Regenequin on his knees too. But he's had arthritis in his knees so bad, Weidman can't even pull his heel up to his butt. And he's a UFC middleweight champion. And his knees are so stiff from all the years of wrestling and all the years of what we were talking about before, plowing through injury, which is something that wrestlers

are so accustomed to doing. No one's, in my opinion, no one's tougher mentally than amateur wrestlers. I think the ability to become a successful amateur wrestler, there's no hidden secrets. The techniques have existed from literally the beginning of human time.

People have learned how to wrestle. I mean, obviously, they've refined those techniques. They've passed them down. But there's no secrets. It's hard work, force, determination, focus. That's all it is. And so who works harder? Who can endure more?

Who can punish their body more? Who can show up and put in the extra hour of training every day that the other guy can't do that guy's probably going to wind up winning and so these wrestlers have this ability to plow through injuries through injury and you see a lot man i mean they hurt themselves though yeah well it's very very hard in the body i think of the guys that i wrestled with back in the 60s and the 70s a lot of these guys are just their bodies are a mess yeah you know i went to a reunion not too long ago of my old college guys and it was pitiful what's happened is i mean some of these guys were such studs and wow they just just the

harshness of the the regimen you know they just kind of let themselves go they they didn't want to be bothered with that stuff anymore well even guys even guys that are still studs, but just their bodies are slowly giving out. Things are breaking off, the hips, the back. Mark Coleman just got a hip replacement. Dan Gable, the greatest wrestler ever. You know he went through the Munich Olympics unscored on? That's insane. Imagine, Olympic-level tournament.

And the Russians had swore they were going to find a guy to beat him. The guy went through the tournament without being scored on. Yeah. Unbelievable performance. He was an animal. Poor guy, double hip replacement. Knees as well, I think. I think his knees are, he needs to get his knees replaced as well.

So, I mean, but, you know sometimes you you think like was it worth it i i think when you ask all these guys you know the glory that they have they might say yeah it was worth it because a long life of never having done anything i mean that's not worth that's not a life worth living either in my opinion yeah it's a tough call because we're all going to die, and eventually all of our bodies will give out. And that's one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about because you, early on in one of your early DVDs, one of the first ones that I got, which, boy, I don't know,

when did you put out your first DVD? My God, I don't even know. It's been a long time, at least 15 years ago. I got one of the earliest ones. So you're probably, you're probably about my age, actually. You're probably about 46, somewhere around that. Yeah. And you were talking about the aging process, fighting off the aging process and exercising to fight off that aging process and being conscious about doing that. And that's something that I think very few people do. They just work out to be in shape. They work out to stay in shape. But you were one of the first guys I ever saw that was talking about it pretty

actively on a DVD and teaching people strategies and techniques to fight off the aging process, not just through exercise, through manipulating your hormones, through certain types of exercise, and joint mobility. Joint mobility is so important because all the deadlifts and kettlebell snatches and swings in the world are not going to save you as you begin to get older. You got to keep that mobility work up. A lot of people don't understand what you mean by mobility. They get very confused with flexibility. They are related. But it's basically being able to move through full range and keeping complete joint function. And there's specific exercises that a person can do to enable them to do this. And it feels damn good, actually. And I've studied the Russian systems. You know,

there's like a Slavic health system and Russian system. They really developed the mobility to a very, very, very high level. And I was lucky enough to learn this stuff. And then, of course, I added a lot of the stuff I learned from yoga and so forth in there. And I came up with this system for myself that I teach to people in my seminars and so forth. And it's really kept me going. I mean, I could have ended up like all my comrades, you know, the guys I wrestled with back in the 60s and so forth. And it's really kept me going. I mean, I could have ended up like all my comrades, you know, the guys I wrestled with back in the 60s and 70s. And of course, I've been doing jiu-jitsu now for almost 23 years and competed at a pretty high level in the age

group divisions. And that takes its toll. But thank God for the mobility. It kept me fairly, I mean, I can't say I got through it completely unscathed, but it definitely kept my joints intact. And I'm able to move pretty damn good. And when I look at people in my family tree, you know, my relatives, my grandparents and so forth, I mean, they were moving bad. I mean, just really bad. And I vowed that that wasn't going to be me. So with this system that I use of this mobility, it keeps me pretty spry. Now, how often do you do it?

Every single day. Every day? Every single day. So give me a schedule. What do you do? Do you start out your day with it? Well, generally speaking, I'll get up. I have a whole Ayurvedic therapy that I go through. When you get up? Yeah, I'll scrape my tongue with a tongue scraper.

There's a lot of stuff from the night, sleeping all night. You build up substances on the tongue. You'd be shocked at what you see that comes off the tongue when you wake up in the morning. Obviously, tooth brushing, head massage, and then... Head massage? Head massage. Do you do it yourself? Yeah. Yeah.

I also have like a special little scraper thing that, you know, like little fingers that you really massage the head. Then I use a neti pot, N-E-T-I. It's an Ayurvedic technique where you rinse your sinuses so that you can breathe through the nose really, really well. Nasal breathing is really important. Then I do a dry brush massage. It's basically a German, Swedish, Russian thing where you just, every inch of the skin, you brush with a natural bristle brush because your skin's the biggest organ in the body. So you really want to keep it.

And this dry brush massage really is quite excellent for the skin. Stimulates the skin to, you know, to renew growth, gets rid of dead skin cells, keeps it really nice and your complexion good. And I'll scrape, you know, I'll brush the body. And then I take a cold water therapy, very big in the cold water. I used to do dowsing with the ice cold water in a bucket, but since I travel, I pretty much have to use the shower. So you just take cold shower? Yeah. Sometimes I'll do alternating hot and cold shower.

LA's not too bad. The water doesn't get too cold, but sometimes, like in Portland, Oregon, and before that Toronto, the water's still pretty frosty. And then there's a whole towel treatment that I learned also. Towel treatment?

Yeah, there's a way that you can briskly use a coarse towel. Rather than having these soft towels, you make them sort of like they're almost sandpaper. And I learned it from this Russian guy, this old Russian sauna master, who showed me how to do this very vigorous towel rubdown. Of course, all the old-timers knew about this stuff. A lot of the mighty men of old, George Hackenschmidt, the Russian lion, and Errol Wehrland and Pavel Orola, a lot of these old health pioneers, Bragg, McFadden, Harvey Kellogg, all these, you know, turn-of-the-century guys.

Harvey Kellogg, the guy from Kellogg's? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know how crazy that guy was? Well, he was pretty crazy. Well, we were talking about him on the podcast yesterday. That guy, he used to take, he created Kellogg's and created the bland cornflakes to keep people from masturbating. He bragged about never having sex with his wife, although they were together for 40 years. But he would have a daily enema by his handsome male assistant.

He would give him a daily enema. He was pretty crazy. Oh, yeah. He was about as crazy as you can get. Well, they got really, really overly concerned about bowel function, some of these guys. And sex. And sex. There's all that weird Victorian stuff going on there.

But the towel treatment, and then I'll do the five rites of Tibetan yoga. That's something. And how much time does all this take? About 30 minutes. For the whole thing? Yeah. Scraping the tongue, cold shower, the whole deal. Yeah. The five rites can be done very Yeah. Scraping the tongue, cold shower, the whole deal. Yeah.

The five rights can be done very quickly. And what is the five rights? It's spinning. There's like a leg raise type thing, a thing where you lean back, a table maker, and there's an exercise called the pump, like up-down dogs. It hits every part of the body. It stimulates the hormonal system. It hits every part of the body.

It stimulates the hormonal system. The practitioners claim it realigns the chakras, where they call it the vortex. People can, if they want to Google it, they can download a free PDF. It's a book called The Eye of the Revelation, and they can read all about it. It was written by a British army major that happened to be stationed in the northern territories of India and Nepal. And he observed these monks, these Tibetan monks, and how spry and how young they were, and how even these guys in their late 80s were able to bound up and down the side of the Himalayan Mountains somewhat effortlessly. And he noticed and took great note of their exercise system, which was basically these five exercises every morning,

along with the, are you familiar with the prostration exercise? No. Where you sort of like lay down your stomach and prostrate yourself to Buddha as a sign of devotion. It's a pretty tough little exercise. So what do you do? You lie on your stomach and you lift your legs up? Yeah, it's almost like doing an ab wheel.

It's pretty tough, man. And, you know, like one of the things that differentiates old from young is your ability to get up and down off the floor. You know, think about it. Like my mom, for example, I visit. She's not listening to the podcast. But, I mean, poor soul. You know, she's like almost 80. But she was bent over with not listening to the podcast. But, I mean, poor soul. You know, she's like almost 80.

But she was bent over with her back to the side, front. I don't think she could get up and down off the floor. I don't believe she could. I think it would be really hard. I don't think my dad could either. You know, and he actually ran and lifted weights most of his life, but he didn't pay any attention to mobility or flexibility training. And he's still alive?

Yeah. Do you talk to him about it? I mean, it's got to be weird when you've got a son that's this health and fitness expert and you don't pay attention to it at all. You know, it's just the way parents are sometimes. I mean, they just don't want to listen to their kids. But, I mean, that's what's in my genetic code. That's what's in my genetic tree. So getting up and down off the floor is really, really important,

and a lot of people can't do it. When I used to run my gym exercise, I had a personal training studio in there besides my jiu-jitsu school. I would have people come to me that were only in their 40s that had a hell of a time getting up and down off the floor. Yeah, people don't exercise. I mean, we're grapplers, you and I. I mean, we're used to it so most of the people

we know no problem it's shocking joe when you see what's going on out there i mean just utterly shocking every time i come from uh uh you know from being overseas and i come back to the states i'm just blown away with the obesity and and just the poor general health and just how bad people look. Do you think that's just the periflation of sugar in the diet, corn, corn syrup? All those things. Fast foods. Just the whole sedentary lifestyle. Majority of people spend most of the time sitting down.

Think of it this way. Imagine you work out an hour a day, which is a lot. Most people do not work out an hour a day. I think it's estimated that maybe 14 percent of the population actually works out at all and they're claiming mowing the lawn and walking the dog is exercise right so really serious hardcore exercises are few and far between it seems like millions of people are doing it to you and i because they're the people we hang out with. Right. But most, you know, most of those other people are not doing it. So let's say you do work out an hour a day.

But then you're sitting most of the day, right? It's the new smoking, sitting. So you're going, you're sitting in the car to go to work. You're sitting at the breakfast table. Then you sit in the car to go to work or the train or the bus. You sit at the desk all day. Then you go to lunch. You sit some more.

Go back to the office. Sit some more. Sit in the car, go on home. Then you sit down on Facebook or you answer your emails or whatever. Then you sit down, watch some television, then you're lying in bed. What's your body going to adapt to? 23 hours of pretty much sitting on your ass or sleeping in bed or moving. sleeping in bed or moving. Yeah. For sure. You're going to adapt to that sitting. Despite the fact that you're working out, it's not enough.

People aren't moving enough. And any movement patterns that you don't use on a regular basis, you quickly lose. And a lot of people, they just never, you know, they use exercise machines and so forth. Or even if they use barbells or whatever or kettlebells, you know, they're not getting up and down off the floor unless they're doing a turkey's get-up or something. That's one reason why I think it's such a fantastic exercise, by the way.

Well, I like turkey's get-ups as well for jiu-jitsu. I think it's one of the best exercises. One of the best all around. Core strength and for that very important ability to manipulate a body that's on top of you. If you can get a kettlebell and you can press that thing and then you could stand, stand up while holding that kettlebell. That's a, that goes a long way to being able to get up from the bottom when someone's on top of you. But even just for the general population, I mean, just the ability to get up and down off the floor. Yeah. All those movement patterns that you need to sit up in the elbow,

on the hand, you know, and it's kind of like standing up in base, you know, like in jiu-jitsu, and then transferring the weight. I mean, all those things, proprioceptive movements and so forth. And I think it's really one of the funnest things you can do. But just getting up and down, even with your body weight, using like this prostration exercise, it's fantastic. It's really good stuff. What do you think about, have you ever seen, Steve Cotter has this exercise that I got from him, where you take two kettlebells, you lie on your back, like you're doing a sit-up, you press them,

and then you sit up with the kettlebells, you sit up with them pressed, and you do a sit-up. You press them, and then you sit up with the kettlebells. You sit up with them pressed, and you do a sit-up, essentially. And then you drop back down, and then you do it all with your arms fully extended. I think he calls it a power sit-up or something like that. That's a hell of a—yeah, some people call them Russian sit-ups. I don't know. Everything's Russian, right? Right.

Especially with kettlebells, right? Especially with kettlebells. But, yeah, I mean, it's a hell of a movement. I mean, for sure. Nothing wrong with that then? No, no, no. I mean, obviously you wouldn't take a deconditioned businessman and start out with a movement like that. That's a good term.

Deconditioned businessman. I have a friend who's a great guy, but I went to hug him the other day and, you know, I hugged him. I put my hand on his back and I was like, I was thinking to myself, I didn't say anything, but I was thinking to myself, how does it even support your spine? I know. There's nothing on your back.

You grab a grappler, you hug him, and you feel their back. You feel muscles. You feel like. You can feel the lats and the rectus spinae muscles sticking out there. There's nothing. It was just this gooey thing. Like dough, man. It keeps his spine just barely hanging on.

And is it any wonder that people are in pain? Yeah. Or that these pharmaceutical companies are just pumping out painkillers right over left? Yeah. Unfortunately, it's just masking the symptoms. So people don't have an incentive then to get in there and do something about it. They just cover it up with the painkillers. Yeah.

I've been pretty shocked at how much decompression relieves a lot of pain in the back and about how much – I take one of these harnesses and I attach it to the top of a door and I strap my neck in it. And like after I train, especially I like to do that and i just it sort of just like pulls on your head and you could pull the string tick tick tick and it pulls you up and then it puts even more tension i like to give it like a lot of weight i like to put a lot of weight on it and when it's done it's like i feel this like rush of blood through my neck and it's amazing how good it feels like as long as you make sure that sucker is tied down good to the the door because one time it wasn't and it bounced off and clocked me on the fucking head and i had a cut on my head

for like a couple weeks it was right when i was doing my sci-fi thing too so i was doing all these uh pressed junkets with a big fucking scar on my head but um when it's uh when it's done correctly it's it's locked into place it's's a real good feeling to stretch everything out. For years, I used inversion boots. I love the inversion boots. Yeah. And there was a time when I had actually injured myself. I was actually trying to do the ab wheel like Jackie Chan style from the feet,

and I was pretty good at it. What's Jackie Chan style? Oh, there was a movie one time with Jackie Chan using an abdominal wheel, and he looked like an inchworm. He was just going like boop, boop, boop, boop. It was just amazing. And I had developed the ability to go from the toes completely out and come back. But I went too deep in fatigue and kinked my back and gave myself a horrible case of

sciatica. I actually rotated a vertebrae. Subluxation, rotation, and spondythesis. I went to my rolfer. It's the first time I ever heard the word surgery coming out of her mouth because she was pretty anti-surgery. And she said, I don't know, Steve, you really did it to yourself this time. I don't know whether I can help you. And in the meantime, I had this burning sensation down my leg, into my knee, and my big toe just wouldn't stop burning like this chronic aching

burning sensation that was just agonizing and what is that is that nerves yeah the nerve was pinched off so over time i went i went to an acupuncture guy to relieve some of the pain it had instant relief but then it would come back and over time she kept working this vertebrae back into place with her fingers and after about eight weeks boom it went away like nothing ever happened just disappeared but after that i was using that i was also sitting on this chair called a back chair you maybe you could bring it up but uh it's a it holds you around the ribs like a clamp and you're sitting on a sling, and then you release the sling, and your back goes into traction,

and you're being held up underneath your armpits. Oh, so relieving, man. So you're being held under your armpits. Yeah, but like a big clamp. It kind of clamps on you. So it sort of lets your lower body. Yeah, and your lower body is just kind of hanging there in traction and decompressing.

Like a dip almost. Kind of like a dip, except there's no stress in your upper body. You're just sitting like I am in this chair right now. And this back chair was fantastic. So between acupuncture, the back chair, and the rolfing, she got me out of trouble. And needless to say, I wasn't too keen about the ab wheel anymore, not at least from the feet. I was a lot more conservative. Hanging leg raises, it's the same damn movement except you're in suspension and your back is in traction.

Much safer exercise. So you were talking about the kind that you put your feet in the wheel? No, no, no. I was holding on like one of those little cheapy $10 things. Like what he's doing right here? Exactly. I was actually doing it just like that, but I just went too deep into fatigue and kinked my lower back. So you were just too tired while you were doing it? I was too tired. I lost my form a little bit. I was going too hard. You know, that is the main issue that we talked about before the last time you were here about

CrossFit. i finally brought myself to watch the video of that guy getting paralyzed oh my god and horrible you know what's really telling about that video is not just what we're talking about is there was a crossfit competition and there was a guy who was a crossfit instructor that was doing a clean was it a clean press what was it was it what was the exercise i know. Anyway, he had the bar over his head, lost control of it, and it fell on the back of his neck. Yeah, no, I hadn't actually seen it. Was it a thruster? I don't remember what it was, but my point is he was in competition with another guy who his body failed on

right before this guy. The guy next to him, in the middle of it, his legs just gave out and he dropped the bar. And so he drops his bar and it hits him on the neck. So it's like one guy drops his bar and then the next guy drops his bar right next to him. It's just the next guy was a catastrophic injury. Catastrophic. But both guys were so fatigued, they shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

They shouldn't have been lifting that weight. No way, man. Their whole body was just like rubber. You know, like we said last time, the risk to benefit ratio. You know, are the risks worth it? You've seen the video? I haven't actually seen it. Let's watch it.

While you're bringing that up, I'm going to take a quick... Okay, please do. Please do. Yeah, go ahead. He's doing a snatch. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah. It ahead. He's doing a snatch. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah.

It's so horrible to see. And by the way, I'm not down against exercise and anybody else's methods. And I know that some people like CrossFit and they get a great deal of pleasure out of that kind of exercise and pushing themselves and all that stuff. And I understand it. I get it. But this is hard to watch, man. Watch this guy. See?

Oh, Jesus. Well, this is the guy that got injured. The guy to the right of him, on the right of the screen, he hurt himself right before this. See, he's got this, and then it just drops and hits his... Oh, his body gave out first, and then it just drops and hits his oh his body gave out first and then it hit his back on the way down that's so awful man the guy next to him to his left there's another video where you could see um a few moments before his body gives out the guy to his left his body

gives out too just in a different way his legs just yeah that guy guy to his left, his body gives out too, just in a different way. His legs just get, yeah, that guy there. See, he'd already, his body had already given out and his legs went rubber on him. Exercise is awesome. It's, it's really awesome. It's great. It's great for your body, but God damn, man, you got to be real careful when you're throwing real heavy weights over your head and you're completely, totally exhausted. I just, I just don't think it's the right way to do it. And listening to Steve talk about the importance of when you're doing these Olympic movements, like Olympic powerlifting movements, they're supposed to be done like very small reps, like one and two and three reps. These are like explosive exercises that are supposed to be done just for developing strength. I don't think you're supposed to do them at high

repetition. I know some people get away with it. I know some people do it, but goddamn, it just doesn't seem to be the right way to go. Take care of your meat wagon, ladies and gentlemen. The problem I have with CrossFit, most of it, is the same problem that I have with people who are vegans. They cannot shut the fuck up about I have with CrossFit, most of it, is the same problem that I have with people who are vegans. They cannot shut the fuck up about being involved in CrossFit. They would just earbeat you to death

about CrossFit. But in all fairness, with all objective thinking and introspective thought, when I first started doing jiu-jitsu, I couldn't shut the fuck up about jiu-jitsu. So maybe it might just be something that, you know, when people are excited about something. By the way, Jamie, you were wrong.

The over-under, you said 35 minutes. I know, you said an hour and a half. Dude, I'm feeling great. This is fine. You know what's fucking a little bit painful is my shins. It's weird to have your shins pressed down. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But my back feels great.

It definitely feels better than I usually feel when I'm leaning up against the back of the chair. I'm usually trying to keep my posture straight, but I always fail. But with this thing, look at me, dude. Fucking locked down, son. Complete. Look at that. Straight line, kid. That's what you're supposed to be.

Just like that. That's how you're supposed to sit. How many people actually have one of these fucking things in their office, though? You know the other thing they tell you? You should stand. You should stand at your desk. That's like, you ever go to a concert and you have to fucking stand? Standing sucks. It's not fun to stand.

Standing at your desk, like, it would be so distracting. Oh, it's a different one? What is that? No, it would be so distracting. What about this one? That's the same thing. Oh, it's a different one? It's the opposite. What is that? No, it's leaning. A kneeling chair review. Huh.

Yeah, it's a different kind of. Or she's sitting on it wrong. Yeah, that bitch doesn't know what she's doing. Maybe she turned it around or something like that. Although, notice her spine is straight, though, somehow. It's not humped, like the forehead or the kyphosis or anything. So, I mean, it's not as bad as maybe like slouching down you know right so if her chair was flat instead of like lean forward yeah because i mean it is possible to like lean in this manner and still keep your spine straight if you have to you gotta talk in the microphone otherwise folks

aren't gonna hear what the hell yeah lean forward Yeah. But the worst thing is to let your back do this and your head come forward. And that's what causes that permanent hump in the upper back. They call it kyphosis or Dowager's hump or whatever. And so that leaning forward that she was doing in that chair probably isn't nearly as bad as – What is that? Oh. Well. What the hell is going on there? I don't know. But look at that head. doing in that chair probably isn't nearly as bad as... What is that? Whoa. Well... What the hell's going on there?

I don't know. But look at that head. What is that? It can't be good. That's not good? That's called forward head. Okay. Look at that.

That's not good. She's kind of like this. You know, it's really interesting because I worked with a high-powered lawyer one time. Remember, I don't know whether you remember this, but remember the South Philly gang, the Nicky Scarfo? Yes. The mobster? Yeah.

Well, I worked out the guy that put him in jail. Whoa. Yeah, he was one of my clients. That guy had me under some fucking stress. The guy was under stress. He was working like these ridiculously long hours. I mean, like 14, 15 hours. He barely had time to train.

So we came up with a plan. You know, we had talked about a stability ball. So Mike swapped out his desk chair for a stability ball, and we got him a pedometer. So he was trying to average like 10,000 steps a day. And he was, like, taking the stairs instead of the elevator or the escalator. He would park his car as far away as he could just to force himself to walk extra paces just to go places. He would walk during lunch and then eat at his desk.

But he also put in like one of those stand-up desks and would pace during phone calls and or pace back and forth while he was sorting and swapping out his papers and this and that, doing dictation to his secretary. He ended up losing like 14 pounds during that time. And, you know, he had the extra padding on his body. And then he would come to me and we would do two 20-minute workouts a week just to keep his basic strength levels up. And he was very successful.

And, yeah, he prosecuted little Nicky Scarfo and put his ass in jail. I would just think the stress of putting away murderers, just the idea that you're the guy who's processing. Especially the mob. Yeah. I mean, that's a real murderer. That's a real murderer. And a murderer that's connected to a bunch of other murderers that, you know, have a vested interest in keeping him out of jail. Did he get, I mean, he had to be, like, threatened all the time, right?

You know, it never came up. I mean, he never talked about that aspect of it, but, yeah, you would think that there would definitely be, like, some type of threat there, yeah? Yeah. I mean, if you're the guy that's putting a major mob figure in, behind bars, you would have to be a little leery. You know what's shocking to me?

I don't know if different police departments have different standards that they have for physical fitness or for self-defense, but when training, when a guy would come in and they tell me that he's a police officer and he literally can't defend himself at all. It is shocking. It's so common, though. Because of this whole equal rights and all this stuff, and I'm not against equal rights, but they really dumbed some of the standards down in some of the police forces to make room for women. And there was these little tiny women on the Philadelphia police force. I swear to God, any 12 or 13-year-old kid could just take their gun and beat them up.

It just scared the – the only thing they could do in a situation where someone would resist arrest would be lethal force. What other avenue would they have? I mean maybe pepper spray or mace or a taser. But I mean this is back in the day. I did a lot of work with police and law enforcement with jujitsu. And I was utterly shocked sometimes when some of these people would come in. The National Park Service guards, you know, the guys that wear the little Mountie hats that are hired at all the national monuments and so forth. How those guys were licensed to carry guns sometimes was just mind-blowing.

It was like, wow, dude, you were so overweight and so obese and so immobile. How are you going to put somebody under arrest when you can just barely even mobilize yourself? It's shocking what happens sometimes. And a lot of the cops that come to my seminars and so forth, they'll agree. You know, most of the guys that go to my seminars are pretty motivated, right, to stay in shape. Yeah. But, you know, not so with their comrades. It's, yeah.

You know, I've met a lot of cops through martial arts, you know, and it's one of the reasons why I have a good opinion of cops is because I know so many of them that are good people. Oh, great people, man. There's a lot of folks out there that, you know, really shouldn't be doing that job. They can't handle that stress or even if they could handle that. Look, stress levels vary day to day. Who knows what's going on in people's personal lives and how that manifests itself in a job like being a police officer. But if you're a fat fuck on top of that, Jesus Christ. You know, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys come to the gym and they've never had any training before and there were already a police officer. And you're like, what would you do if somebody just tackled you?

Like, what would you do if you didn't have your hand on your gun at the time? And even then, if a guy smacks it and it goes flying and he's on top of you, you're a dead man. it and it goes flying and he's on top of you, you're a dead man. Like you don't have any, I would think that that would be like a writer who doesn't know how to spell or doesn't know how to type or doesn't literally doesn't know how to write English language. Like to be a police officer and not be physically fit or not have any knowledge whatsoever of self-defense. It seems insane.

It is insane. There's a very famous training video that they show. I think it was in Texas where there was a pretty big guy. He's probably about 250, huge cop, but obviously very fat and out of shape. And these two little guys that tackle him down and take his gun and shoot him. It's used as a training video for new recruits and so forth. And, boy, that wouldn't give you the incentive to at least learn some basic self-defense on top of whatever the show in the police academy is and so forth. You know? Yeah.

I mean, it's pretty crazy. But those guys, they do have a hell of a hard job. But you don't meet nice people when you're a cop. No. You're meeting the worst elements of society every single day. People just lying to your face. No wonder they develop high stress levels, having people lying to you and then having to determine, are they telling the truth or are

they lying? And, you know, criminals are pretty devious and they're pretty good at lying. Well, no, even most folks that aren't criminals, if they get caught doing something that's a crime, they're going to lie. And so the cops are just constantly dealing with people at their worst. At their worst element, you know. So yeah, I mean, that would definitely have an impact on the way you think and your stress levels. And of course, we all know that food is a great balm. You know, it's soothing. It starts when you're a little kid, you know, It's soothing. It starts when you're a little kid with your dessert or your little treat or rewarding kids.

I hope you don't do that to your kids, by the way. No, no. Don't use food as a reward. No, but I don't demonize food either. No, of course not. I give my kids healthy food most of the time, but I also say, who wants to get ice cream? Let's do it. Yeah, of course.

There's nothing wrong with that too. I mean, sugar's not good ever. And I tell them that like, this is not good for you, but it tastes delicious. So we limit it. I try to talk to them like, I mean, I have a six year old and a four year old. So I try to talk to them like they're adults. And then when they, what does that mean? Then I explain it. You know, I treat them like they're children, obviously, with a lot of love and affection and a lot of, you know, patience. But I try to talk to them in an advanced way. I don't treat them like they're dummies. Like I explained to them, I said, you know, food is exactly what your body's built of. Your body, whatever you take in, that's all that your body has to build new cells. That's all it has. It doesn't have any extra stuff. It only has what you give it as far as food. So it's important

to give your body vitamins. It's important to give your body all sorts of things like protein and water. But I also say, but it's important to fuck off every now and then. I don't say fuck off. I would if my wife wasn't around. She gets upset at the bad words. She doesn't want them learning the bad words early.

But I say it's important. Have a little mouth party with some sugar every now and then. I don't want it to learn the bad words early. But I see it's important. They'll learn them sooner or later for sure. Have a little mouth party with some sugar every now and then, you know? But I don't want it to be a forbidden thing. Yeah, well, yeah. Once you forbid something, it makes it even more desirable. Yeah. And I had friends that had kids and they did not, you know, they weren't allowed to have any kind of treats or any of that kind of stuff.

Guess what they do as soon as they go to their friend's house? Freak out. And then they just freak out of that kind of stuff. Guess what they do as soon as they go to their friend's house? Freak out. And then they just freak out of that stuff, man. It's so funny. I had this one lady that was like this really, really snippy eater, and everything was fresh and organic, and she was so proud of her son and his diet that she had him on. Man, every time I saw that kid, he was with a friend,

and they would sneak bags of candy and stuff. God, it's so crazy. Yeah, it's really true. It's so crazy how many people do that, too. It's so crazy how many people just, they do that to their kids, and they suppress them. I have a friend whose kid is overweight, and he's always on her, telling her, don't eat this, and don't eat that. And he'll do it publicly in front of people and shame the kid.

And it's a terrible way to do it. And then when no one no one's around like she was at a party the other day and i watched her just eating like eating cupcakes and just looking around eating like like ran just frantically stuffing them in her face he's going to create a bulimia yeah or a real problem or yeah someone that has a serious eating disorder so yeah, yeah, shame never works, man. Yeah, it's terrible. It's just a bad thing to do to a kid. It's just, you know, children, they're developing, and that's the thing that people don't understand.

Like, to raise a kid, you can't just go on your instincts. You can't, like, say, oh, you need to toughen them up and tell them what to do. No, you're going to develop all sorts of weird, crazy things in their head. You're going to develop blocks and they're going to have these mental blocks. They're going to have to work out in therapy for the rest of their life if you fuck with their head too much when they're little. Well, I mean think about it. Most of us didn't have that great a role model. Yeah.

And there's no directions that come with raising a kid, man. Exactly. And it makes me wonder why so many people think that they are good or even qualified to be parents. I mean, nowadays, with the world being the way it is, I would be really reluctant to want to bring another soul into this world. And I don't know. I just don't feel like most people are really that qualified to be parents. They should really think about why are they doing this. It seems like kids are almost an accessory, you know, something that you show off or it's an accessory,

or they just bring them in because it's the thing to do or whatever, you know. It gives them meaning. It gives their life meaning. I think for a lot of folks, they feel like if they don't have children, that they're somehow or another not contributing. And I faced that before I had children. People would say to me, like, oh, you know, one day you're going to have to grow up and you're going to have to have kids. Right now you're living like Peter Pan. Let me tell you something, you know, that ain't the way to live. And they make it like there's some nobility into having children. I couldn't disagree with that more.

I think if you want to have a life where you contribute, a life where you're a person who is a beneficial person to society, it's real simple. Have good friends. Do something you love doing. Inspire others. You know, be nice to folks. That's it. That's all you really have to do. You don't have to have kids like and if you have kids and you fuck up and you have shitty kids you've done the opposite now you've created problems like i had a friend who used to always

rag on people for uh you know like that hadn't uh hadn't reproduced but he was a degenerate and his one of his kids smoked crack the other kid was in jail i mean and he was like bragging about having kids like you fucking idiot you've created disasters when your kids come into the room i leave created more of a problem for society than not not in his eyes but you know it's yeah it is funny there is a pressure on people you know it's too bad it's it's unnecessary pressure you know and by the way you could always just work out, you know, all that. You could go and volunteer your time at a youth center. There's plenty of kids out there that don't have, yeah, exactly. They don't have good mentors or parents or whatever, fathers, kids, and so forth.

The thing that really bugs me, and you see this in jiu-jitsu or martial arts a lot, where guys give up their dreams for the kid. Like they sacrifice everything for the kid. What a horrible role model. What message is that? I am so important. I'm the center of the universe. And kids grew up with this over – You know, they talk about lack of esteem.

I think most modern kids have too much esteem. They've been – you know, they grew up like a little prince or a little princess. And it's like, man, the best thing a guy could do is continue to work out, keep yourself in great shape. Take that time for yourself to keep yourself healthy. Because I mean, what use is a man to his family if he's broken down and sick and he just works his ass off all the time and doesn't keep himself healthy? And my God, go to the mat and get your time in, man. Right. You know, to keep yourself mentally healthy and happy. But I can't tell you how it used to bug me when I had my jiu-jitsu school, how many guys,

you know, they let family just completely undermine everything they were doing for their health and their well-being. Yeah. And their sport. Well, their kid becomes like a project. Exactly. And they put tremendous amount of pressure on their kid because of that. You know, I think it's very important to set an example.

And one of the best examples that you could have as a parent is just to live a balanced life, to live a fulfilled life, enjoy yourself, enjoy your time. So that your kid has like that in their head. Like, oh, you know, I should, I should, I see how my mom lives her life. I see that she's fulfilled. I see that she enjoys, she has hobbies she enjoys. She likes to educate herself. She likes to read. She likes to do things. I like to do things too. And like you get stimulated. If you have a mom, it's a fat fuck that sits around watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and eating Cheetos and complaining about people and talking shit. You know, those kids will develop that sort of a habit. They'll start talking shit too. And they'll start floundering around too. Children imitate their atmosphere, you know,

very much so. And, you know, like the old man has been working all day and he comes home, he's grouchy, he's tired, you know, you know, and then all of a sudden he's dumped on with all the, all the problems. Oh yeah. When my kids were a, man, I would put them in the damn playpen and they could scream their fucking heads off and I did my training. And they were going to learn that, hey, for that time, hey, I'm doing my thing.

I was making sure they weren't hurt. Right. But it wasn't going to kill them. Right. You know? And then I would get finished. How old were your kids when, or your kid when you got divorced?

Let's see. The daughter was 12 going on 13, and Zach was like, I guess, 14. That's tough on kids, right? That's tough on kids. And especially at that age, right? The high school age, close to high school. Well, the girl more so than the boy. That was tough for her.

Zach, he was a little bit more philosophical. He was a pretty mature kid for his age, and he was able to take it in stride a little bit more. Yeah, when kids see parents that are together, too, you know, they look at these, like, happy households. Like, some of my daughter's friends, they're single moms, or they're broken up with their husband or going through divorce, and you can see they hate it. The kids, you know, especially at that age, like six, they really suffer. It's a crazy thing how human beings just a lot of times really desire that nuclear household, that father-mother household, so much so that people will go through it.

And that's the other side of it is the folks that go through it where they're just getting tortured. They hate each other, but they're sticking together for the kids. Like, man, you'd probably be better off. The kids would probably be better off if you broke up. There are plenty of families that shouldn't be together, man. It's so toxic. And the kids grow up in that toxic environment. But what you were saying before, kids do emulate what you do. And by being a good example, by taking care of your health and taking time to

work out and pursuing your own interest and not just making everything about the kid, about the kid, about the kid, about the family, you know? Yeah. You also give them a sense of independence too. Well, yeah. Then they can see, wow, okay, my dad's his own man or my mom's her own woman. And, you know, they're not just all wrapped up in me, you know? So what a great role model that is for them to grow up and realize that, yeah, that's the way it is.

Is there an age where kids shouldn't lift weights? Because we always heard that when we were younger. Like if you lift weights when you're a certain age, it's bad for your body. It's bad. It'll stunt your growth. You'd always hear things like that. Are those myths? A lot of it is a myth.

I mean, obviously, kids, when they're small, they don't have good motor control or good motor skills so you know you don't want them hurting hurting themselves and you know yeah but certainly doing body weight exercises i mean your your daughter probably tries to emulate you already anyway you know when she sees daddy in the his home gym or whatever she wants to do some push-ups and stuff and that's that's fine usually by the time a kid's old enough to start doing household chores and helping around the house a little bit, it's a good time to get them in some type of formal training. But it's got to be somewhat fun.

Yeah. The sky is everything is play. We talked about Hickson's hidden jiu-jitsu. You can kind of do hidden workouts and stuff. Yeah, Krohn would joke around about it. There was no hidden pressure. That pressure was real, man. That pressure was real man that pressure is real look you imagine growing

up the son of the greatest jiu-jitsu fighter ever you know has to be not just on the block not in the neighborhood not in the state not a state the highest expression of the art that there ever was and a crazy yoga guy to you know this dude is doing this crazy breath work and shit. But also, look. Look where it turned out. I mean, he's a world champion himself. So, obviously. So, something worked out there.

Yeah. Clearly worked out. It's like with my kid. I used to play all sorts of fun little games. I would take. He used to love to go to this dollar store. Everything was a buck. It was a heaven for little kids.

All that cheap plastic toys and all that stuff. So, I would tape dollar bills up was a buck. It was a heaven for little kids. All that cheap plastic toys and all that stuff. So I would tape dollar bills up on a pole or on the wall. And he would have to figure out how to pile furniture up and climb up and get it. Oh, Jesus. That sounds like a fucking recipe for disaster. Well, you know, I was spotting him.

But, I mean, he got good at climbing stuff, man. I used to bet him that he couldn't go from the basement of our four-story brownstone in Philly, from the basement to the top floor where my bedroom was, without touching the stairs. So he was doing like Ninja Warrior stuff, like bracing himself in the wall or walking with his feet in one wall and his hands in the other. Wow. Cat crawling up the railing.

I mean, he was doing this stuff when he was really, really little. But when he was in like, in kindergarten, we'd play Indiana Jones at the Temple of Doom. I'd have a big stability ball, like the big concrete ball or the granite ball that was going to crush Indiana Jones. Well, Zach could jump down a flight of stairs and land and roll before I could roll that ball down the stairs. Jump down a flight of stairs?

He learned to do this stuff from a very young age because he started when he was like three or four years old. How many stairs? It'd be like 14 steps. He jumped down 14 stairs? He could hold onto the rail and swing his legs out and jump to the bottom. Oh, okay. So he would hold onto the rail and jump over the side? No, no, no.

He would like swing his body in the stairwell and jump down the flight of stairs. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's kind of cool. Yeah, yeah. That seems like a lot of stress on your legs, though. Yeah, you know, kids at that age, they're so resilient. And I mean, he had been built into this stuff from the time he was born, man. I was thinking that the other day when I was watching our kids play. I was like, you very rarely hear about kids getting a knee injury.

Nah, kids don't get hurt. I mean, they'll fall and stuff. You know when they start getting hurt, when the parents start to put that fear of ground engagement? Anywhere in the world, you go by a playground. And I don't even have to understand the language to know what these people are saying, mothers and so forth. Get down. Look out. Right. You're going what these people are saying, mothers and so forth. Get down. Look out. Right.

You're going to get hurt. Oh, that's so dangerous. You put this fear into kids' minds. But up to that point, their bodies are so resilient. Okay, maybe they'll fall. They start to learn their own limitations. But instead, well-meaning but misguided adults put these limitations in their mind already, premature. So they never really discover. So they get this inborn fear, especially of falling and so forth, one of the five big human fears.

And when I used to teach wrestling and jiu-jitsu and so forth, teaching people throws was really hard as an adult because they had this terrible fear of falling. But it was misguided because, I mean, when you're a little kid and you learn how to fall and roll like Zach did, man, you can take falls and throws and you're absolutely fine. Bodies are so mobile, so resilient. They haven't built up all that stiffness. But when you put that fear in a person's mind, you get that fear reactivity. For sure you're going to get hurt because you stiffened at the wrong time. The difference between dropping a ball on the ground

and a brick. The brick shatters and the ball will bounce. You make people like bricks with all this fearfulness and you hear it all the time. I hear parents constantly putting this fear into kids. Well, I fell off a monkey bars when I was six and snapped my arm in half, so it's probably good to have a little bit of fear. A little fear. I was like,

I broke my arm! My mom would always hear me say I broke my arm when I didn't break my arm, but she looked at me and she goes, wow, you really broke your arm. You really did break your arm. It was snapped in half. But, you know, you learn a harsh lesson, but, you know, it still didn't make you completely afraid of climbing and doing stuff. I mean, I bet you within a couple months you were right back in there doing the stuff again.

Yeah, I'm sure I was. I can remember falling out of trees. It felt like every bone in my body had broken, you know. You know, what's amazing is how well kids can manipulate their body too. My daughter can do, what is that called, when you put your feet on the ground, your back bends and you put your hand. Yeah, right. Their little spines are so incredibly flexible. And she can go up on her tippy toes.

And she's only six. She can also climb a rope. I have a rope in my garage. You've seen my garage. It's a pretty high ceiling. Yeah, great. She grabs that rope and climbs all the way to the top. And I was watching her do that.

I was like, how many women can do that? Not many. She's a tiny little girl. She's six. how many grown women can support their own weight like that and climb up most grown men can't do it no most grown men yeah most grown men they couldn't climb a rope if their life actually depended on it yeah and that's sad it is sad and that that's one of the best things i ever did for my kid i just hung a rope in our foyer of our house. We had like one of those cargo architecturally designed houses that the kitchen went up three floors, you know,

with like a, a, a bi-level type thing, split level. And, um, took my life in my own hands with my drill, trying to hang that damn rope,

man. I tied myself in with my jujitsu belt and was leaning over the balcony, trying to find a, a, a beam with a beam finder and got the drill. This is all while the ex-wife was out of the house. And she comes home and she has this rope hanging down in the middle of her foyer by her kitchen.

And I got both kids climbing that rope. Was that the beginning of the divorce proceedings? Probably. From the moment I said I do, it was the beginning of the divorce proceedings. That's how it works sometimes. That's how it works. Sometimes it's just the idea of getting married. We're going to be normal.

We're going to be like everybody else. We're going to get married. It'll work out. Once we're married, it'll work out. It never does, man. I prefer an unmarriage, right? An unmarriage is where I have my money, she has hers. I got my credit cards, she has hers.

I have my possessions, she has hers. I don't tell her what to do, she doesn't tell me what to do. It's like an agreement. We're together because we want to be together. We don't need a government agency to tell us that we can live together, and we definitely don't need a government agency telling us that we're allowed to be a partner. Well, that doesn't sound very romantic, Steve. I don't know what kind of woman's going to accept that,

but I'll tell you right now, I am not going to. I'll tell you right now, Steve, I want a traditional marriage. I don't want to be able to tell my friends that I'm married. That's the other thing. Chicks love to tell their friends they're married. Very few guys are excited to tell their friends they're getting married. Like,

see, I got her. She's marrying me. I did it. You know, they go, yay, we're getting married. Like, well, congratulations. But it's never like this milestone accomplishment. Like, wow, you pulled it off. But a girl will like, look, I'm getting like, oh my God, I can't believe it. Girls get so excited. I'm so happy for you. They'll hug. It's a completely different experience for the male. Women have got it in their head, or some, I should say, because of movies and of stories, you know, this romantic happily ever after idea that they have to get legally bound. They don't think of it as, you know, the way you look at it is so harsh and so jaded. It's not a legal contract. It's, it's a beautiful agreement and it's, you take your relationship to a next level.

Yeah. Until you hit those divorce proceedings and then you realize, oh, this is a contract. Like this is a legal contract with the state and now I got to bring in lawyers and we got to figure out how to fucking divvy up my money and the lawyers get a giant chunk of that action that's the big scam that's what's when Phil Hartman before his wife killed him when he was trying to get divorced shot him in his sleep he was ranting to me but I go just fucking give her half and he's like it's not half that's the thing it's a third because the lawyers get a third to he was like, it's not half. That's the thing. It's a third. Because the lawyers get a third, too.

You lose two thirds. It's not half. Pretty much, man. And he was just steaming about it. That's why I like the non-marriage, you know? That's nice, the non-marriage. Yeah, everyone keeps their own personality, and you don't just get all wrapped up. See this guy?

Jamie was showing me this yesterday. This Russian oligarch lost $44.5 billion in a divorce. Of course, I guess when you have billions and billions, it's probably not that big of a deal. It's a big deal no matter how much money you got. The idea that some chick is going to be going off banging other dudes with your money and riding Ferraris and flying private jets everywhere and buying castles all with your cash. Why? Because you had sex with her.

I guess they don't have prenups in Russia. Or if they do, he didn't get one. I mean, he just maybe thought this is going to be different, man. Fuck all the other 50% of the people that couldn't make it. I'm not even hedging my bets. I'm all in. He pushed all his chips on the table. You know the thing that I think sours a lot of marriages,

and I can speak from experience because I've been married and divorced three times. Three times? Three times. You fucking crazy, man. Yeah, man. I kept going back for more, and I finally got smart, you know. Three times. Pretty crazy.

Wow. But so many of us guys, we get a woman who is what I call the girl. Really fun to be around. Very feminine. You relate together as friends. And then what do we do? We turn around and change her into a mother. And mother is a whole different animal,

a whole different being than that girl, that young girl that was carefree and fun to be around. And you'd go to the movies and you'd go out and you'd play and you'd just have a great time. And all that just goes right out the window once you turn her into a mother. I'm not even talking about kids. I've seen plenty of people without kids.

The woman still becomes the mother. Oh, yeah. Like a mother substitute. Well, they become a dominant role in the man's decision-making, and they sort of control him in a very motherly way. I think that becomes very unattractive to women too. I don't think a lot of women respect the man. They don't like that role.

I mean, they don't want to be put into that role. A lot of women, they like a strong guy that kind of takes care of them, right? I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't want to generalize, but what I've seen from the women that dominate the men, like the guys that I know where the woman tells them what to do, and those guys

also have a hard time getting sex. Like, almost universally. It's almost like a rule. Like, if the woman dominates and the woman tells you what to do and the woman just controls your spending and controls what your hobbies are and tells you what's going to happen and where you're going to go, those guys don't get much sex. And I don't know if that's related to a woman being attracted to a man that she can't control or not attracted to a man she can control rather. a man that she can't control or not attracted to a man she can control rather well the mother doesn't like sex the mother is against sex and that's what happens so often in these marriages and you know i've had a lot of women that are masseuses and you know they uh body workers

and man when you know they tell me it's uncanny how many of their male clients will always proposition and try to rankle sex out of them. Really? And these are legitimate body words. I'm not talking about prostitutes. Right, right, right. And, I mean, it's pretty common. Guys are just sex-starved in their relationships and their marriages. But the thing that really used to rankle me most – more than anything was the way women would not want to be, they would want to separate their guys from their friends.

Yeah. And they really resented the fact that God was coming to jiu-jitsu training. As a guy that owned a jiu-jitsu school, man, the wives and girlfriends would give the guys such a hard time about going and training. If anything, they should be encouraging the guy to go as much as possible. Yeah. And, you know, they pulled these guys out of there. And that's a damn shame to do that to a guy.

It's also a damn shame for a guy to pull his woman out of something that she loves to do. Oh, well, yeah, of course. I mean, to be fair, of course. Yeah, it's a terrible thing when people try to change the person who they love and control them. I mean, could you imagine your friend doing that to you? Like a friend going, come on, man, you're not going to work out. What are you working out for? I don't want you working out.

Hey, I don't want you working out. You're my friend. You're coming with me. You're like, what? Like, I don't like you camping. Why are you camping? You know, I don't like you going to ball games. You'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about?

You're crazy. But when that friend happens to be someone that you have sex with or you're romantically connected to, girlfriend, fiance, wife, whatever you want to call it, that person all of a sudden has some sort of a role. They can dictate your actual day, dictate what you do. Whether it's a guy doing it to a wife or a girlfriend or a woman doing it to her husband or a boyfriend, it's a weird thing that people just sort of accept.

And it happens so often. And it's always gross. It's no wonder that divorce is at its all-time highest rate. Fucking idiots. All of us. You too, right? I was an idiot. I did it three times.

What did you think about on number three? When that one failed, were you like, motherfucker, what's wrong with me? Why did I do this three times? Pretty much. It was like, damn. What was I ever thinking, man? I had a lot of shame,

actually, and a lot of feelings of unworthiness or whatever, you know? A feeling of being a failure and all that. And then I just realized, well, you know, some people just aren't cut out. I should have never been in that situation in the first place.

Which wife did you have the kids with? The first one. in the first place. Which wife did you have the kids with? The first one. Really? The third one. Oh, wow. So you had kids with both of them. Yeah. Whew.

So how old is your oldest kid right now? 45. Jesus Christ. You got a 45? You got a kid my age. I was 17 years old. Wow. Pretty much a knucklehead, an idiot.

Yeah. So what would that make her? That would be, well, she's got to be like 45. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. And then Zach, who's a black belt teacher down at Hoyler Gracie School and Hedges Labre. Where's that at?

John Fred. That's Gracie San Diego. Oh, San Diego. Yeah, they just moved to a new place. I haven't even seen their new school yet. Hedges just moved

into a new place and it's supposed to be fantastic. What a hotbed San Diego is for training. And his partner is this guy, Joao Freire,

Johnny Freire. He's won U.S. Nationals and World Nogi. I think he went to Abu Dhabi. I don't know. He's a hell of a No Gi grappler. And Zach teaches for those guys down there.

And then Hoyler lends the name to the school and shows up, you know. I mean, he's on the road most of the time. Right, right, right. Hoyce has kind of done that too, right? Neither one of those guys, they just decided to not have an academy. Yeah, it's hard being tied down to an academy. It's better just to have, like, maybe a place have maybe a place where you can let someone else run it, and then you can go out on the road and do the seminar circuit.

And there's still a lot of call for jiu-jitsu. The seminar circuit is a big thing for jiu-jitsu guys. Eddie Bravo makes a lot of money doing that. That's a big part of his income. He does a lot of travel and a lot of seminars. And even myself, I mean, I get a fair share of jiu-jitsu calls these days. I mean, I was one of the first American black belts and so forth. I don't consider myself an expert in the type of competition game they have now. But when it comes to the old school self

defense, the L.A. Gracie self defense, I consider myself one of the top authorities. I learned it really well from both Jorge and Helson and Elio himself. It's a fantastic system. It's shocking how many black belts don't even know the basic stand-up self-defense. They don't realize what a great self-defense system Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu really is.

What do you mean by stand-up self-defense? Every fight starts standing up. People grab you. Bear hugs and grabbing you by the hair, by the throat or grabbing your jacket or pushing you up against a parked car or a wall. There are self-defense systems in place to either prevent those things or to get yourself out of a bad situation. It doesn't always involve going to the ground per se. And Elia Gracie was a real master at adapting the old Japanese system and making it more applicable to smaller, weaker people

through the use of leverage. And it can even be taught to kids. The Gracie have that anti-bullying system too, which was the finest thing you could teach a kid. I mean, think about karate or taekwondo or whatever that a lot of parents take their kids to. How does that work? Well, you've got to basically bust somebody in the face, right?

Yeah, kick them in the head. That's going to get you thrown out of school for sure. Right. But at least with jiu-jitsu, you can use other means that's not going to get you suspended from school for two or three or four weeks or whatever. I was watching one of the UFC Ultimate Insiders yesterday. You know, they have those shows where they detail training camps and stuff,

and they were talking about TJ Dillashaw was preparing for this fight, and they had a scroll at the bottom of the screen, and it was about a football player who was under arrest for kicking another football player in the head, and the other guy was in critical condition. Did you hear about that? I mean, I don't know what happened. Was this on the field or in the locker room?

I have no idea. It was just the scroll at the bottom and that the player was in critical condition. And then one player kicked him in the head. I don't know if it was pro or college. I don't know what it was. Well, we have a very litigious society. So you use a real violent way to end some type of altercation. Well, you know, you mentioned like the truck driver today that was blocking you when you picked up your packages.

Yeah. Imagine that when it went south and you started getting really belligerent and getting up in your face, maybe pushing around. Right? Jiu-jitsu would have enabled you to control the situation without necessarily hurting the guy. Right. But if you would have resorted to your Muay Thai, and I've seen the way you kick and punch. It's pretty formidable. You could have knocked the guy in the next week.

Well, you could really kill somebody. That's the real problem. Well, that's the problem. They fall down. Killing people in fights a lot of times happens when you hit them and they go unconscious and they hit their head on the ground. Now, imagine if you would have punched him in the face and he would have lost one tooth. I mean, imagine a tooth replacement. There it is.

There's the thing. Rutgers kicks Philip Nelson off football team after quarterback is charged an assault on Minnesota man. Is that it? Crazy, man. The Minnesota guy was a linebacker for Minnesota State. Is this, they have a video of it? Yeah.

Oh, play the video. Damn. Let's see this. What happens here? Not so, man. I wonder if they knew what the hell was going on everything's videotaped now it's crazy pretty much not much privacy this guy's ruined his life man he certainly has. Oh, it was a nightclub or something.

Oh, Jesus Christ. So his life is ruined as he knew it. Oh, my God. So he'll be out of school. But see, the point, you know, using the violence of punching and kicking, okay, it worked. There's no doubt. Oh, it definitely worked. But the after effect.

Yeah, it's fucking horrible. You know, the ramifications of using that type of violent behavior, and for children in particular, to teach them that, wow, they're going to be thrown out of school for sure. That's why I always like the wrestling and the jiu-jitsu. You can control it without necessarily having to you know smash somebody yeah absolutely the only real problem with that is of course multiple people but multiple people most of the time you're fucked no matter what pretty much it's very rare that a guy it's not like you know the movie jackie chan movie jackie chan or chasing satham you know one video it was from turkey where this guy was a boxer, and he was being attacked by this whole group of people.

We were watching it during one of the podcasts that we do, and I was doing commentary on it because the guy's a really good boxer. And all these people are chasing after him, and he's dropping them left and right. There's like 10 or 15 guys chasing after him, and he drops like 10 of them. They're circling around him, and a guy comes forward. Crack, he pops this guy. Crack, he pops that guy. They're trying to grab him.

He's backing up, dropping guys. It was really like a scene in a movie. Like if you saw it in a movie, you would say, well, this is fun to watch, but in real life this never happens. But this actually did happen. It actually did. Like that movie Old Boy. Here it is.

Here's a video. They're chasing after this guy. And so after they're chasing after this guy, they get out. People start arguing. And they're chasing after him. But the guy knows how to fight. Bam! He drops that guy.

Bam! He drops that guy. Bam! He drops that guy. They're all chasing after him. And now they're getting mad because he keeps dropping these guys. Look. He's got his hands up.

He's got a good jab, too. Check this jab out. Not a bad jab. Look at that. Bam! Look at that jab. Drops that guy with a jab. Look at this. Bam! That's got a good jab, too. Check this jab out. Not a bad jab. Look at that. Bam. Look at that jab. Drops that guy with a jab. Look at this.

Bam. That's just a stiff jab. Not bad. And they're all running after him. And he's moving back. And he's got the state of mind. Look at that. Drops that guy.

Drops that guy. He's got the state of mind to move back and then pause for a second and fire, too. Catching guys coming in. He's obviously trained. Look at that jab. Boom. He's very well trained. Yeah, obviously.

Hands up high and turning left and right and dropping dudes. I guess it seems like they're playing the same thing over and over again, so it's probably only five or six guys,

but still. Well, they're coming at him one at a time, and obviously they weren't trained people. Yeah. I think if you're, you know,

imagine trying to fight trained guys, but, you know, how often do you ever find trained guys out in the. I think if you're, you know, imagine trying to fight trained guys, but, you know, how often do you ever find trained guys out in the street? And if you do, what a terrible situation.

That'd be a horrible situation, but for the most part, you know, thugs aren't well trained. Well, I had a friend who got in an argument with a guy while they're in their cars

and they're yelling at each other, fuck you, fuck you, and pull over, fuck you, and they pulled over and they both got out of the car and both guys pull over, fuck you, and they pulled over, and they both got out of the car, and both guys could fight. One guy shot the other guy, the other guy stuffed the takedown, they start duking it

out on their feet, and they're like, holy shit, and they were both really well trained. A basic UFC out in the street, man. And he said, we were going at it for like 10 minutes before both of us are exhausted, and they wound up high-fiving each other and get back in their car and drive it away so they they fucking both realized that like they were gonna they thought they were gonna tee off on some dude who didn't know how to fight the guy shoots in for a double the other guy gets under hooks and sprawls and they're looking at each other like what the fuck's going on here and they're like fainting each other leg kicking each other and shit they were actually duking it out and then somewhere along the the line, they were having fun. And they realized they were having respect for

each other. And then they high-fived each other and got back in their cars. What are the odds? Very rare. Very rare. Very rare also that they could go through that and laugh and go, oh, it's fucking stupid. Let's get out of here. And bruised up. It's always stupid, right? Yeah, always.

It always ends up being stupid. I mean, those type of things. Well, the worst is the drunken moments, like probably these guys that are at this nightclub, this football player, kicking this guy while he's down. And also the crazy thing is movies that show head trauma and make it out like it's no big deal. Guy gets pistol

whipped and he wakes up later, what happened? Meanwhile, he's fine, you know, and he's just still saving the day. You know, you get pistol whipped, you're probably fucked up for about six months. You're going to be a serious concussion, man. Yeah, I mean, Matt Grice, I don't know if you know who he is, UFC fighter, great guy, was hit in a collision, was rear-ended, going 65 miles an hour. Somebody just wasn't paying attention. I don't know what the details were, but his car was plowed into.

Had brain surgery, I mean, barely what the details were, but his car was plowed into. Had brain surgery. I mean, barely made it. Big scar on his head. They had to remove his plate from his head. They move a piece of his skull to give his brain a relief from the pressure. And then they had to put it back in place. But, you know, he was talking about how much it affects him, how much mental fatigue he has. Oh, my God, yes.

You know, it creates, like we were talking about earlier, like the NFL. I mean, look at the whole concussion controversy right now. It's going to change football as we know it. What are they going to do about that? Because the sport, it's like, it would almost be like MMA. How would you take away the concussions in MMA? I don't even know how that would happen. You can't.

Unless it would be some kind of like body shots only in wrestling or something. But that, I don't know. I don't think the fans would buy it. And the other thing that happens that you see in MMA is when a guy gets knocked out, how easy it is for him to get hurt after that. Like Anderson Silva is a perfect example. Goes through his entire career. Looks like he has a chin of iron.

You know, fights everybody. Never gets hurt. Even if he gets dropped, gets right back up, seems like he's fine, you know, fights all these killers, and then Chris Weidman shuts his lights out, and then the next fight, Chris Weidman drops him with a punch that looks like he would absorb that punch under any other circumstance. If you look at his entire career, he was hit with harder punches, hit with cleaner punches, seemed to be fine. But he takes that one shot from Weidman and you see his eyes roll back and he goes down. He recovers. He's hanging on for dear life and clenching.

But you got a sense that he's damaged. It's a cumulative. The nervous system gets insulted like that and it just builds and builds and builds. I remember as a college wrestler my senior year i was i was illegally slammed in my head and had a pretty bad concussion and uh i had another incident in training same thing and they they they told me even back then and this is back in the 70s that one more i was banned for the season that was it wow yeah but not an mma you know so many guys get knocked out in training and then wind up fighting.

Eddie Alvarez just pulled out of his big fight with Michael Chandler, and one of the things that he was talking about was that he had gotten knocked out before their last fight. He got knocked out in training a few weeks before the fight and got through it okay, but that this one was he had gotten hit in training wrestling. Someone sprawled, and he got hit in the head by a guy who used his hips. Just a collision. Just a random collision. And then another random collision while he was trying to get a single, the guy pulled his

leg out and as the guy's kicking his leg out, he hit him on the chin. Thinks he's fine. Just training hard like normal. But then can't get over the headaches. It hurts him to move his head around. And then he goes to a neurologist and he gets CAT scans done, the whole deal. And they realize like, you know, you're not going to be fighting.

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens in these next 10 years with the first crop of mixed martial arts fighters and how they age and what, you know, some of these guys are getting a little bit older now and what the permanent ramifications are going to be from all those brain injuries and so forth. And I think it's going to be similar to what we saw in boxing with a lot of these guys. Having dementia and the classic punch drunk. Yeah. It would be interesting. I agree with you and I think that it kind of brings up the question that we're talking about with Dan Gable.

Like is that glory worth having those hip replacements? It's one thing to have your body aching, but it's another thing to have your mind compromised to the point where the quality of your thinking has greatly deteriorated. Not just your ability to move your body, but your ability to communicate with people. Like, when you used to hear Joe Frazier before he died, it was painful to listen to. I actually saw him out in the street, you know, because I lived in Philly and I, you know, I actually saw him walking down past the Yonk Avenue right where I lived. People said, hey, Joe. And the poor guy, you couldn't understand a word he said, the way he saw his speech. And yeah, it was like really, really weird to say. Do you ever foresee in the future, remember how McCain was trying to ban MMA for the longest time right after the initial thing got started?

Right. Do you foresee any of that happening again? It could. As this type of thing happens? I'm just curious. It could, but it would be very— On the inside. It would be—the only way that would be possible is if someone figured out a way to make football safe.

Because if they don't make football safe, they're not going to ban football. Football is the national pastime. It's too big a sport. Too big, too huge, too many people love it, too many people look forward to it. Football season is just a huge part of being American. If they don't ban that and someone wants to ban MMA, it's going to be a real problem. It's just going to be hard to reconcile. But they say that, well, the difference is that football, the goal is not to knock a man unconscious.

The goal is to get a ball across the line to score. Sort of like organized team warfare. Yeah, it's all well and good, but what's happening? What is actually happening? What's actually happening is giant people are slamming into each other and one of the things that this guy told me um that i found incredibly fascinating about concussions he's like the big misconception about concussions is that it has to be from head injury he's like what you don't realize is you can get a concussion from getting hit in the chest oh yeah a hard shot to the chest like football players colliding with each other, not even making contact with the head, but just the boom, the impact of these enormous, powerful bodies slamming into each other causes the brain to rattle around inside your skull.

Slosh up against the side of the brain pan. And that causes concussions. And there's a lot of guys who suffer concussions with no head trauma. Their head doesn't actually get, it's not a direct head contact. It's just the body getting rocked by an impact. How are you going to take that out of sports? Any sport, even basketball, guys fall down. Combat sports.

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that the guys can do. Look at this. Boom. There's a perfect example, Jamie. That guy got a concussion. Watch this. Look at this. Look at his head.

Boom! The way it snapped forward. Oh, my goodness. And the size of that man who grabbed him. Jesus Luisus. Like, if you think about a guy like Lawrence Taylor going full clip or Ray Lewis. That's just like a nightmare. Taylor going full clip or Ray Lewis.

That's just like a nightmare. These guys can go 100 yards in like sprinter time, elite sprinter time, and they're 300 pounds of muscle. Yeah, it's shocking, the forces that go into the whole thing. By the way, not possible without steroids. I don't give a fuck what anybody says. You don't get that big. You don't get that strong. You don't get that fast. Test them all get that strong. You don't get that fast.

Test them all you want. There's some shit going on. There's a lot of those fucking dudes that are on the juice. If you go back in time and you look at the football players from the 1960s and you look at the football players of today, sure, you had your guys. You know, you had your big guys. Yeah, you had your, you know, who was the guy who did commentary in UFC 1? Jim Brown.

Jim Brown. Jim Brown, super athlete. Super athlete. Natural. One of the greatest ever. Fantastic athlete. Those guys today are so much bigger than him. He's a little guy by their standards.

They're so big. Go back even further. Let's take Jim Thorpe. Oh, yeah. You know, I went to Jim. I went to, I grew up in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where Jim Thorpe went to the Indian school there in Carlisle, PA. No kidding. And I went to school with his nephews, his grandnephews.

Both boys were. What was he like as he got older? He became an alcoholic, unfortunately. You know, he was penniless. He was stripped of his Olympic medals for playing a one pro baseball game or something, getting paid for a game. What? Yeah, they had stripped his medals from him for his amazing Olympic performance.

Wait a minute. Because he did the baseball game before the Olympics or after the Olympics? No, no, before. He had actually got paid like, made a nominal amount of money, I don't know, $15 or something for playing a game, and he was stripped of his medals. But he died just basically a ditch digger and a penniless guy. But to give you an idea of how versatile the football players were in those days, my friend, the nephew of Jim Thorpe,

told me the story that he missed the bus from Carlisle to Harrisburg to play the game. that he missed the bus from Carlisle to Harrisburg to play the game. So he ran from Carlisle to Harrisburg, which is about 18 and a half miles, to the game and got there in time to play the second half and scored several touchdowns. How far is that? 18 miles. 18 miles? Yes.

He ran 18 miles. Dog tried it 18 miles, got there in time to play the second half, and actually did a couple scores. That's insane. Talk about an insane athlete. How big was he? You know, I don't know. Bring it up.

Jim Thorpe, he wasn't a big guy, but, you know, they played both ways. You know, you played offense and you played defense. Yeah, look at that. He looks like a UFC welterweight. And he was a damn good boxer and wrestler too. Wow. But, I mean, that was back in the day where they didn't suffer the terrible head traumas because it was more of an arm-grabbing wrestling kind of game.

And were guys smaller too. And smaller. Yeah. And, you know, I stayed in Sydney. I love Australia. I love the Aussies, and I was teaching jujitsu down there. And they're really into Australian rules football, and it's very similar to rugby. The guys don't get nearly the traumatic injuries that they do in, like, NFL.

It's more like organized team wrestling. They're out there wrestling. In fact, they train a lot of wrestling for these guys. They bring wrestlers in to teach them basic wrestling holds, and you don't get the—I think it's the modern equipment that allows these guys to hit each other with such force. That is the big argument about football. If you really wanted to make football safer, you would

take away the helmets. People are like, that's so counterintuitive. How can you protect people by taking away protection? The reality is that protection is a fake sense of security. Take the gloves off the UFC fighters like you did in the first four. Okay, you're going to see a lot of surface cuts, facial cuts from the knuckles.

But you're not going to see the traumatic head injuries like you do with the gloves. Those gloves allow guys to punch so freaking hard. They make the hands like weapons. But you take the gloves off, man, that hand's pretty fragile. You're not going to just be grounding and pounding like a, you know. Do you think if they did that, you would start to see guys practicing on the makiwara? Remember those Japanese?

You probably would. You'd have to definitely touch their hands. Machida still does a lot of that. Machida still practices on the... I think you'd see a lot of open hand strikes as well. I think you're right. Remember when Keith Hackney fought that gigantic sumo dude and essentially bitch slapped him. Bitch slapped him, yeah.

Just dropped him. The guy was like 600 pounds, Emmanuel Yarbrough. He hit him with this gigantic swinging bitch slap. Which is a great self-defense technique, by the way. Your palm. It's amazing how much impact your palm can take and not get hurt. I mean, you could do that. Look, I'm doing this on this hard oak table.

If I did that with my knuckles, it would fucking hurt. Oh, and plus, you know, you could so easily break your hand. Yeah. My jiu-jitsu master, Helson Gracie, was a renowned street fighter in his own right. And he used to practice open-hand techniques all the time. He used to, we call it slapping the bag, so to speak. And he

always taught us not to use closed fists in any type of realistic confrontation. Open hand strikes are quite effective for self-defense. Yeah, you could certainly fuck somebody up. The best example of that is Boss Rooten. Boss Rooten and Pankrace and Pankrace, am I making up names?

Pankrace, Boss figured out, Boss has like really flexible wrists in some way. And he figured out how to pull his hands. His hands go like, you see how my hand, like if I was striking, my hand goes out. It's like sort of like not even 90 degrees, not quite. Boss's would go way back like this. I don't know how the hell he did it where they stretched his wrists out. Probably did. But when he was striking, he was doing boxing techniques, whereas in Pancrase, everybody else was kind of slapping and swinging. Boss was throwing straight palm strikes and palm hooks.

So he was throwing them in a very traditional boxing way and knocking guys senseless. Iron palm technique. Yeah, incredible power behind his straight right palm technique. You know, he was a great puncher. So he just pulled his hands back and threw punches, but threw punches with his palm and was able to really, they, that was the thing about Pancrase is like, you know, that they were, were not allowed to use closed fists on the ground. They were using to the body, but they were not allowed to use them on the face,

standing up or on the ground. So everything had to be these kind of slaps but boss just threw the whole fucking system out of whack because he would just crush guys With that palm Hill today, and he's another guy that's in some serious pain right now It's got a one atrophied arm His arm is shriveled up and he's going through all these different treatments to try to regenerate the nerves and the tissue in his in his arm It's real sad. Yeah, I mean there's a hell of a—no one ever said that these sports are healthy. You know, you do it because you love it. There's something inside you that makes you want to do it. But, you know, I mean, truth be known, grappling is something you can do pretty well in an advanced age.

Yeah, well, Elio was like 90 and he was still grappling, right? Yeah, he was in his mid-90s. Yeah, he was like 95, 96. What was he like rolling around? You rolled around with him, right? Yeah. When he was that old? He was in his mid-90s. Yeah, he was like 95, 96. What was he like rolling around? You rolled around with him, right? Yeah. When he was that old? He was amazing.

He liked to lie there and let you try to do stuff to him. He loved to play that game. And it was like he could read your mind. He already knew what you wanted to do before you even did it. But he moved well. He moved very well. Wow. He moved really, really well.

He didn't hurt his knee jumping off the back of a truck. And yeah, so he was a little stiff in his knee. But he was a pretty mobile guy. Even in his 90s, it was amazing how well he moved around. What do you think about, like, there's techniques today that you're seeing in jiu-jitsu, in MMA, all these jiu-jitsu techniques that were not in the original systems. There's all these new found movements that some guys just don't want to adapt. They don't want to incorporate them into their strategy or into their game. You know, what do you think about that? I find that to be incredibly weird because

jiu-jitsu itself was like this new thing, these new effective techniques that the folks that were originally learning them didn't know. You know, Elio Gracie, Carlos Gracie, they take these techniques, they modify them, they make them even better. So they essentially have this completely new system. They brought it to America, like especially in 1993 when the UFC came along. That's what the whole thing was about. It was about these new techniques that people couldn't defend against because they weren't

aware of them. But now they don't incorporate new techniques into this system. And the idea that it's perfect as is, and then it can't be improved upon, I think that's a little short-sighted and a little weird considering how the system started in the first place. Well, you have to think of it like this, combat versus sport, real fighting versus sport fighting. The rules will dictate the techniques, just like taekwondo. At one time, it was a fairly formidable martial art. But because once it became an Olympic sport, it just became so stylized that taekwondo almost became useless as a martial art. Take judo, for example.

The original judo was basically identical to jiu-jitsu. basically identical to jiu-jitsu. But once it became an Olympic sport and people started practicing it within the rules, they became more and more stylized to the point where judo lost any semblance of being a real martial art that you could use for self-defense. So I think what the Gracie jiu-jitsu practitioners are saying is, we don't want to take some of these newfound techniques and incorporate it in our style because this is for sport only. This is stuff that you would only do in the sport itself. And that we want to stay with the more traditional combat-oriented techniques that have been tried, true, and proven for many, many centuries, really, if you think about it.

That being said, my son said something interesting to me because I was kind of ragging on 50-50 and Barambolo. And he says, yeah, but, Pop, if you don't know this stuff, you're going to get your ass handed to you by some guy that does. So it's best to be familiar with all of this stuff. So I thought that made an interesting point. But, you know, when it comes to UFC, I mean, obviously you're not going to Barambolo somebody.

You're going to get your lights punched out or, you know, I'm not going to jump guard in the parking lot out here if some guy would give me a hard time. Right, but if you do wind up scrambling, you fall on the ground, the guy's on top of you, the guard does work in a street fight. Oh, hell yeah, man. I can't tell you how many students in Philadelphia. I myself had a few scrapes, and boy, it worked beautifully.

But once again, we're not fighting trained fighters. Yes, exactly. We're not entering into a contract to put on a show and to fight each other. Right. I mean, by that logic, like the guard, you would never use the guard in the street. Like, why would you use the guard in the street? The guard seems like something that you would use in a sport only. I mean, you're on your back.

Why would you ever put yourself in that position? Only because a guy puts you there. Right, exactly. Because you have no choice. But in that respect, then the 50-50, which is, for folks who don't know, it's almost like two guys going for heel hooks at the same time.

Yeah, pretty much. Interlocked leg position. If you're in a situation where somehow or another in a mad scramble, you wind up with a guy like that, boy, a heel hook in the fucking street would be absolutely devastating. Well, if the guy wouldn't get up and chase you, you could just walk away and he'd be laying there. Oh, the heel hook is one of the worst techniques ever as far as the going from not feeling any pain to irreparable damage or damage that you're going to have to get surgery for.

It's like that. You don't have play. You have a little bit of play in an arm bar. Like here, you're going to have to get surgery for. It's like that. Like the difference, you don't have play. You have a little bit of play in an arm bar. Like here, you're okay. Here, you're like, fuck, I might have to tap. All right, I'm tapping. With a heel hook, by the time it gets there, things are ripping apart.

Yeah, thanks for the injury, because you don't have the sensory nerves on what about. The heel, the leg, a lot of the leg locks were originally Russian Sambo. Really? Yeah, they were very highly developed A lot of the leg locks were originally Russian Sambo. Really? Yeah. They were very highly developed by the Russian Samboists. They had their own grappling style.

And the Gracies actually learned a lot of these techniques and took the Sambo and embraced it and put it as part of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. The Machados did an awful lot of that too. They studied Sambo. They competed. I actually saw a couple early Gracie videos of Hickson and Jean-Jacques and Higgin competing in Sambo tournaments in California. And, yeah, it's real interesting. This Russian guy beat both. He beat two Machados and then met Hickson in the finals, and Hickson beat the guy in the finals. Interesting. Yeah, it was really good. beat the guy in the finals. Interesting.

Yeah, it was really good. This Russian guy is pretty good. What's his name? Oh, man, I don't know. It was years ago. I saw this video. It's an old footage that I saw in Horian's office. But at any rate, they were a military technique.

If you maimed a soldier, maimed them, then it would take at least two comrades to take him out. So now you've put three people out of the picture. So they would rip apart the knees. Yeah, so now the guy's all maimed. And so now it takes at least two buddies to help get the guy back. So you put three people out of the fight

with one maiming. Oh, here it is. This might be it. Is that Hickson? That's Jean-Jacques? That's John Jock. That's John Jock. There was a blonde Russian dude that was kicking everyone's ass in this one jujitsu tournament. Oh, yeah.

They're going after leg locks. Oh, yeah. The Samboists are devastating with their freaking legs, man. Yeah. That's John Jock. Remember Oleg Tiktorov? That's John Jock, though, that just did that. John Jock in the blue.

I remember Hickson was wearing this. Remember the colorful shorts he was wearing? The one tournament that I saw, there was a blonde Russian guy that was pretty much kicking everyone's ass, and then Hickson was wearing those multicolored shorts that he was famous for in the beach fight in Rio when he fought Hugo Duarte. Yeah. This is Higson was wearing those multicolored shorts that he was famous for on the beach in Rio when he fought Hugo Duarte. Yeah. This is Higin.

Higin in his day was a bad motherfucker. Oh, my God. He still is probably. Yeah. I haven't seen him lately. He's a big guy now, but yeah, that's interesting. That is very interesting. How familiar are you with prolotherapy?

I don't know much about it. Or maybe I know it by another name. Proliferation therapy. How familiar are you with prolotherapy? I don't know much about it. Or maybe I know it by another name. Proliferation therapy. Prolotherapy is they inject this glucose solution into joints, into ligaments, and it actually thickens the ligaments. That's interesting because I have read a lot about the hydrolonic acid that they inject into joints for osteoarthritis and so forth. I think that, yeah. It works in a similar way, I think, to kind of hydrate the connective tissue in there.

Oh, okay. What I was bringing it up is because I knew a dude who used to get it done, even though he didn't have injuries, he would get it done on his elbows and his knees just to thicken up and strengthen the tendons and ligaments just for training. Because apparently it can strengthen it as much as 40%. Well, that's pretty impressive. It's very impressive, right? Wow. Yeah, and when you inject it, it's really painful.

I had it done on my knee and I had it done on my wrist. It did wonders for my wrist. I broke my wrist when I was kickboxing like in 1988 or 89. It fucked with me for a long time until I got this prolotherapy on it. And whatever it did, it really went away a little bit on its own. It got better on its own, but it would click all the time. And it would ache after it would train for a long time. But this prolotherapy, somehow or another, by injecting it directly into the ligaments,

it forces the ligaments to swell and then strengthens them. Sort of like the hydrolysis. And it stays thick. There's another therapy that a lot of people don't know of, but back in the 70s it was huge. It's the DMSO, dimethyl sulfuroxide. I'm a big advocate of this stuff. And you can still buy it in some health food stores. Why did they stop selling that?

Well, the FDA at one point wanted, the big pharma companies can't make any money on it. They can't own the patent. And this is about the time when all the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, you know, like ibuprofen or Advil or whatever, you know, was coming into play. So they put the kibosh in this

stuff and got them to ban it. And then at some point, I guess the ban lifted or whatever, and it became popular again. But I remember hearing some of my aged aunts and uncles talking about DMSO when I was a kid. And wow, this stuff works, and it works well. Huh. Yeah. It was like for horses, right?

Yeah, they used to use it as a liniment for racehorses. And you put it topically on the skin and it has this unique property of sinking right through into the connective tissues. And it has an amazing anti-inflammatory effect. It really helps the body with its own healing process. Yeah, I remember guys used to use it back in the Taekwondo days when they would get injuries to their feet, like kicking things, kick elbows and stuff like that. Guys would rub it on their feet, their shins, things along those lines. Yeah, I'm using it now. I hadn't used it for years, but I decided to try it again.

I've been putting it on the shoulder that had been bothering me. And, wow, I can't believe in just one week how much better the shoulder feels. More pain-free than it's been in a while, which makes me wonder why I wasn't doing it earlier. But see, when I was doing it before, I was still doing the kettlebell snatches, and I've become a bit of a critic about the kettlebell snatch. Why is that? I think it puts an awful lot of trauma on the wrist, elbow, and shoulder

for no good reason. People say, oh, the snatch is the penultimate lift and can't about lifting and all this and that. Man, I can't tell you how many people I've seen injure themselves. I'm not talking about people using crappy technique. Right. Using the technique, you know, really good technique and still suffering osteoarthritis and rheumatoid problems. I mean, you think about it.

You take a heavy weight and you continuously throw it over your head, continuously over time. Of course you're going to get repeated trauma. What about presses? Presses are fantastic. So you think that – what is the – about the motion? Well, you're swinging this kettlebell overhead and it suddenly stops. You get all this loading of the connective tissues at the top.

It's like a dead stop you know the the momentum and you know i mean there's always people that can seem to seem to waltz through life doing these type of lifts and so forth skate through it yeah it seems to skate through it but man there's thousands of people that suffer and i think all of the benefits of the snatch can be certainly had in the swing you don't need to to traumatize your shoulders in order to get benefits from the kettlebell. So the swing where it stays horizontal. Yeah, exactly. The momentum just dies out. But that's enough.

It's all hip and butt and hamstrings and lower back, and you've generated the force. So for me, I was really into the snatch thing for the longest time, but it was definitely traumatizing my shoulder. What other exercise do you think maybe should be avoided? Kettlebell exercise. Well, I'm beginning to think that the windmill with really heavy weights should be avoided. Really? Yeah.

I mean, I'm not talking about like just doing it with lighter weights, but some of these guys, you know, they're into 40-kilogram kettlebells. That's 90 pounds? What is it, like 88 pounds, I think? Mm-hmm. That's pretty heavy. Yeah. You don't need to subject your body. I do, it's 70.

It's like a rotation and a twist of the spine. So you got to be really careful when you're loading up these type of flexy, bendy postures like that. A lot of the overhead squat stuff, I mean, you know, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should, you know? Yeah. I was going to a guy, I was saying that for shoulder stability, that it's a really great one because of the fact that it's got all this twist to it, you know, that you're-

Well, I mean, the getup is going to get all that. Everything the windmill does, the getup does even better. Plus, you get the benefit of moving your body from the ground, of standing up and back down and so forth. The windmill has a weird sort of hamstring thing going on with it, though. Oh, yeah, for sure. Because I get a lot of hamstring soreness when I do heavy windmills. Well, yeah, you're lengthening the hamstrings out really good. So it's, you know, quite a severe stretch, like a form of loaded stretching or weighted stretching and so forth. But I mean, if you really wanted to get down to brass tacks, if you're pretty much just doing get-ups and swings, you pretty much have the perfect workout right there. You don't

need a whole lot else. Just get-up swings. What about presses? Well, presses are always a good thing. But I mean, you can do presses with anything, right? You can do handstand push-ups. You can do dumbbell, barbell. But yeah, kettlebell press is a fantastic exercise. There's no doubt about it. And I think the kettlebell double front squat is a beautiful way to squat. The double front squat? Yeah, where you claim two kettlebells and you hold it in what's referred to as a rack position and do squats. It's a really user-friendly way of doing it. That's how I do all my squats that I do with weights. I do them all that way.

I was using a squat rack, but I felt like it's harder to do it this way. And I feel like I'm engaging my core more because I'm keeping them in front of me. Oh, absolutely. Your posture has to be correct to do it. So I just went with all of them. And I just do with 270s. I just use 270s. I mean, at my age now, there's no reason to load my spine up with a really, really – my friend Mike Muller.

Yeah, he's a strong dude. Oh, my God. Mike is ridiculously strong and a vegan. Yeah, ridiculous. Anyone that thinks you can't be strong and be a vegan, just check out Mike. Yeah, ridiculously strong and vegan for – I mean, he's got a lot of ethical considerations. I mean, he's really dedicated to the whole lifestyle of being a vegan. Yeah.

Very knowledgeable. And not even annoying about it. No, no, not at all. No, he doesn't push his agenda whatsoever. No, it's great. If anything, people ask him. Yeah, well, your website, what do you have on there as far as I know that you develop, you have people that you train online, you develop programs for them.

I do. How does that work and how can someone sign up for that? Well, I call it my freedom business because I can do it pretty much anywhere in the world. That's one reason why I'm able to keep up my nomadic existence because, you know, as long as I have Wi-Fi, I'm good to go. You still have the 62-liter drum or whatever the hell it is? The 65-liter bag.

65-liter bag. Osprey bag, yeah. My girlfriend's beating me now. She just downsized to a 45-liter bag. 65-liter bag. Osprey bag, yeah. My girlfriend's beat me now. She just downsized to a 45-liter. So damn it. Since when do you have a woman traveling with less stuff than a guy? That's ridiculous. Yeah.

Of course, I have workout equipment in my bag. Well, there you go. Abdominal wheel, rubber band, suspension device. You keep an ab wheel with you. Out of all the things you can keep with you, an ab wheel is that important that you decided to keep that? I like it. I mean, it's so light. And I use the multi-task with it.

The little bar that you use for it, I use it with my rubber band to do rubber band deadlifts and such. Oh, I see. Yeah, some cool stuff you can do with that little handle. You showed me a bunch of stuff that you could do in hotel rooms. Like you throw a towel over a door. Oh, yeah. You do chin-ups off the door. All you really, truly need is just your body weight.

I just carry this stuff around because I can, but maybe I'll just dump it and go even more minimalist like Teresa, you know? So how do you, when you develop these programs for someone, say I'm Jamie over here who likes to exercise. If you wanted to build a program for someone, do you let them fill out a form? How active are you? How in shape are you? Oh, yeah.

I mean, first of all, I want to make sure that I can help the guy. There's no sense in him wasting his time or money or me wasting my time with a guy that I can't help. So he sends me a little bio, what it is he's interested in. It gives me a chance to see if the guy has realistic goals and ideas. And if he's like way out there, you know, maybe he'd be better off going to somebody else. But if he's pretty much in line with what I think I can do as far as helping the guy, the next step then is I send him a questionnaire, which is extensive lifestyle questionnaire. next step then is I send him a questionnaire, which is extensive lifestyle questionnaire.

Everything from, you know, your work to, you know, almost like that Ayurvedic test you took, you know, I want to know. And then he sends me a dialogue. I want to see what he's putting in his body. And then I send a fitness assessment. In the meantime, he takes three photos, non-posed, just like in a pair of shorts so I can look at his structure. I particularly need to see the feet and the knees and see how the guy's standing, his posture, you know, back, front, side. So I need to look at his spine, his shoulders, look if there's any structural stuff going on. And based on those photos, sometimes I'll have different fitness assessments because before I can take him where he thinks he wants to go, I got to know where he's at. Do you watch him do a video? Do you like to make him? Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. But for the

most part, you know, it's unnecessary. Once he does this fitness assessment, I have a really good handle on where he's at. And then I'll send him a program and then he sends a training login anywhere between once a week to some people like to send something every day, you know, and they have recovery days, actually recovery days, actual recovery days as well as their workouts. A lot of the guys are participating in jiu-jitsu. Some guys are participating in MMA. But a lot of the guys are just regular guys, businessmen, businesswomen, housewives.

They just want to be healthy. How many clients do you have that you do this with? Right now, I haven't counted, but it's close to 60. I know. It's a lot of time on the iPad. How do you keep up on that? A lot of hours a day, man. How many hours a day do you do that for? That seems incredible.

I don't track it because it's different each day. Some days it's like six, eight hours. Other days it's like three or four. It depends on how many logs that come in. But I try to have a turnaround time of never more than 24 hours. But it's all you. It's just me. So you don't ever go on vacation.

Like you don't say, hey, I'm taking a week off of life. No. Wow. But I like it. See, it's different. Yeah. So your life is kind of a vacation anyway. Because I'll be like I'm leaving from here to Ikaria, Greece.

Whoa. In the Aegean Sea off the coast of Turkey. Beautiful, pristine, little, quiet island that a lot of people never heard of. And it's named after the mythological figure Icarus that flew too close to the sun with his wings and plunged into the ocean. Yeah, his wings melted or something? His wings melted. Well, this island, I'm going to be there for three weeks doing like a lifestyle training camp. And the Wi-Fi is a little sketchy, but I'll be okay.

So I'll be doing my iPad while looking out at the beautiful blue of GNC. I was in a high rise in Sydney looking out over the harbor. So it's pretty easy to do your work when you pick really nice places like that. Plus, I love doing it, so it's not like a chore or anything. I really enjoy communicating with these people. And you almost become friends. Sometimes I'll meet them at seminars, which is always really cool, you know, to actually meet the person. But you really develop a closeness and a camaraderie through the emails.

That's interesting. When you go to a place where they speak a different language, do you have a translator? Like, how do you do that? I have a universal. Like, I just got back from Russia not too long ago. I was in Novosibirsk. That's the very heart of Russia. Remember that guy, Alexander Karelin?

Yes. That's where he's from. What a scary fuck that guy was. Yeah, bring that guy up. Alexander Karelin, man. There's some amazing photos of him. The most crazy, scariest, people would turn themselves over and pin themselves so as not to be thrown with this patented gut wrench throw. Yeah, they would be bellied down, and he would get his hands underneath them

and take a 250-pound man and throw him like a pillow. And toss him like he was like nothing. And smash them onto the ground. So there in Novosibirsk, the Russian experiment, no one spoke any English whatsoever. So I have a universal translator on my iPad and iPhone that I can write a question out and then show it in Russian and then hit a button and change the keyboard to Russian. And then they can type back and be in English.

So you can communicate with this modern technology. That's crazy, though. But, like, what if you want to get something to eat or you want to get a room in a hotel or something like that? Well, usually hotel personnel, someone there speaks English. That's one of the nice things about being a U.S. citizen. I mean, there's a lot of things I don't like about this country, but it's still a superpower, and it's still the country, so to speak. So most people speak English in these hotels because tourism is a real big thing for a lot of these places.

That's so fascinating that you do that. You go from one place to another like that with no stops. Pretty much none. Because you're living out of this 65-liter bag. Everything I own. You don't really have a place where you're like, well, we're done work. We're going to just hang out at home for a few days.

No, there is no home. We're going to just hang out at home for a few days. No. There is no home. Everywhere I'm at is home. Do you foresee that for the rest of your life? I mean, you're 62 now. Is that what you are? 61.

61? Yeah. One and a half. Gave you an extra year there. 61 and a half like a kid. Like a kid. Do you foresee living the rest of your life like that? Yeah.

I mean, I enjoy it that much. I mean, it's really nice not to be tied down. Once you get that roaming spirit, I can't even imagine just settling down. But what about your body? I mean, you're essentially teaching people health and physical fitness. How long do you think you'll be able to do that for? At 61 years old, that's very unusual for someone to be teaching people how to lift weights and exercise. I mean, I've seen some of the shit that you've done.

Somebody posted a video of you working out with those guys that do the playground workouts, which is incredible. That was just like a year ago, man. Those guys are so fit. I mean, it's amazing watching some of those playground workouts that those guys do the urban gymnastics yeah they have no legs though you ever notice that little skinny ass fucking toothpick legs well the other thing too a lot of those guys are hurt a lot yeah a lot of

the stunts you know it puts a lot of stress in your body right it's not necessarily the uh kind of thing that you'd want to do but i mean I mean, it's amazing how these guys, I mean, essentially they're just doing this for their own fun, right? Oh, yeah, they love it. Absolutely. Look at that. That is incredible. That's a strong dude, huh?

That guy can put his legs up there in the air. What do they do for their lower body, though? There's so much upper body stuff in all these exercises. You very rarely see them doing lower body stuff. I didn't get a chance to actually see it, you know, what they see them doing lower body. I think a chance I should say it, you know what they did for the lower body but I mean For sure what they do is pretty amazing

But yeah might not be the best way to go for especially people over 40 because the joint trauma, you know Yeah, because remember there's a difference between working for strength and demonstrating strength and doing feats and stunts Versus just regular exercise right and stunts versus just regular exercise. Right. And stunts and feats take its toll over time. You know, like Olympic lifting, powerlifting, those guys are pretty bunged up by the time they get to their 40s or 50s. So you consider what those guys are doing with this playground workout as a stunt.

Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is built towards developing these tricks. Right, to show that, like, that's incredible. Yeah. The ability to hold your legs up like that. Like, folks don't know what kind of core strength that requires. That requires incredible amount of core strength. And now he's doing that stripper thing where you're on the pole. Yeah.

I mean, it's no joke. These guys are incredibly fit for that. They truly are. That's amazing. These flags are just like, wow. It's so hard to do. It's so hard to do. It's really hard to do. But the torque and the pressure on your shoulders.

Yeah. Incredible. Look at you. Not bad for an old guy. Not bad at all. Not quite as high as that guy was. But amazing that you never did this before and now here you're doing that. Nah, I've never done any of this stuff.

Most of my training was all geared towards uh trying to make myself a better wrestler and or a better jujitsu fighter so it's a slightly different energy system and a whole different emphasis with the workout so that's incredible that these guys have developed a sort of uh way to work out on these playground workouts that has gone worldwide i mean there's so many of these people. Oh, yeah, there's the Bar Stars, and then there's, when I was in Australia, there was the, what was it, the Bar's Beasts down in Bondi Beach, these Australian guys that, you know.

So, and every country, especially the poorer countries, you know, most of these outdoor playgrounds and gyms are pretty available to a lot of these guys, whereas they couldn't even afford a regular commercial gym. Right. When I was in Russia, I was really pleasantly surprised. You could find a pull-up bar and dip bar everywhere. Not for kids, for adults. Really?

And you'd see people using them. I mean, just all over the place like these. Look at this guy. Jesus Christ. Doing dip bars and pull-up bars and all that kind of stuff. That's incredible. Yeah, that's pretty incredible stuff, isn't it? Yeah, this is amazing.

Look at this guy's hanging on this other guy. Yeah. Some of these guys are crazy strong. Yeah. Amazing. But in a lot of these Eastern Bloc countries, they don't have a lot to do, you know? And they're not big guys. No, no.

You're looking at them. Thin, wiry, lean. Yeah. But, you know, bodyweight training has a way of kind of, I mean, obviously different physique types are going to be attracted to different activities. Yeah. A lot of times, you know, people have this mistaken notion that if I do this, I'm going to look like this. In reality, the physique type has success at a particular activity and then stays with it. Right.

For example, women often like want to do dance because they want to look like a dancer. But if you don't have that proportionate dancers type body to begin with, you'll never be successful at dance. Right. Like if you're short and squat and you have big, thick legs. Exactly. I don't care how much dance you do. You're never going to develop the long lean

lines of a dancer. And the same thing with the urban gymnastics. Really big boned guys with big heavy legs, they're never going to be successful in that type of activity no matter what they do. Just as they wouldn't be able to do what the football player does. Isn't that also a case for guys that want to compete in MMA? Those those big, bulky football player type dudes, they're never going to be able to have good endurance. It's going to be really hard for those guys, you know, because they, you know, they're kind of like just naturally fast twitch guys with low anaerobic endurance levels. And no matter how much they train for endurance, they're always going to be lacking in that particular department. You know, different – the cool thing about combat martial arts, though, and combat sport, there's a whole array of physique types

that seem to do pretty well. You have, like, little fireplug guys that do pretty good. Husamar Pajarez. And then tall, thin, wiry kind of guys. Roger Gracie. Yeah, exactly, that do well. You find, like, what's good for your body style. You start to develop a style for your particular physique type and all that,

which makes combat martial arts different than any other sport on the planet because you won't find a big array of physiques playing NBA basketball, for example. Right. They're all tall guys. Occasionally you'll see a little guy, but rare. You only see huge behemoths playing NFL football. Once in a while you might have some little guy, but he's like one in millions. You know what I mean?

They can make it. So the sport attracts the physique type. These people are good at it because they have the body that does well with that particular activity. It's interesting when you see a guy who was an elite football player or something like that get into MMA. Their bodies change. They slim down. They're still big and bulky.

They become a little bit smaller. The guy who's freaked me out the most is Herschel Walker. That was pretty amazing, wasn't it? Because he was like 47 or something when he started fighting in MMA. Not a kid at all, man, yeah. And just yoked huge at 47, shredded six-pack, and just throwing guys around, and training at AKA. I mean, look at that.

That's him at like 48 years old fighting in Strikeforce. That's pretty remarkable, isn't it? What a super athlete that guy was. Wouldn't it have been incredible to see him as a 20-something year old competing in the UFC? For sure. Boy, he was something special. Guys with his genetic propensity for size and strength and endurance

and explosivity, they probably wouldn't be drawn to mixed martial arts because of the money factor. I don't know. He's going to make like 10 times the money playing NFL football. Probably, but he probably could have made that kind of money. Look at the fucking size of that guy, 48 years old. He could have probably made that kind of money doing anything.

Yeah. He would have been so dominant. He would have been successful in almost any sport. You do have a point there. How does a guy stay that big? Look at the size of him at 48 years of age without lifting weights because that's what he always claimed. He always claimed that everything he did was body weight.

Do you think that's bullshit? You know, I just don't know. I really couldn't contest that one way or another. There's a lot of people who have called bullshit on him. There's no doubt that body weight training can make you pretty muscular. Oh, yeah. Well, those Bar Stars guys. Yeah, they were pretty yoked up, man.

Look at that. That's him when he was younger. That's a good picture. Thank you, Jamie. Perfect picture. How the fuck does that guy become that other guy? Show that other picture again. How the fuck are those two?

One is the young guy and one's the old guy. Well, you'd almost have to start suspecting some type of enhancement therapy, would you not? Mm-hmm. Just go back to that other picture, Jamie, the picture of him swole up and, come on, son, one is when he's young and one is when he's 48. Make open a new tab and go back and forth between the two photos. MMA does not build that type of physique. I'm sorry.

Well, he's doing, obviously, he's doing some sort of body weight conditioning, strength and conditioning. Well, I mean, there's no doubt he works really hard. Yeah, but the other thing about Herschel Walker that's really crazy is he said he eats like a bowl of soup and a salad every day, and that's it. That's hard to understand.

It's double hard to believe. But maybe. We'll fucking know. I know a guy that only slept three hours a night. Who? Dr. Ken Leisner. Look at these two pictures. Look at that one, and then look at the other one.

Jamie, do you know how to do tabs, you motherfucker? Too big? Can't you just go back and forth? Look at that. What the fuck, man? Jesus. Jesus. That the fuck, man? Jesus! That's when he's young, and here's when he's older. I'm confused. I get super confused. I mean, that looks like a guy who probably doesn't actually look like... Wait, how old is he in that picture right there? Young.

1982. That's crazy. So he's 50-something now. Well, he might not have been to his true man strength and so forth at that age, too. Well, he's got some fucking man strength going on right there. Yeah, don't he, though? Jeez. And they say, you know, he would go to AKA. He works out with the team, works out with everybody.

Amazing. I don't know why he's not doing it anymore. Well, maybe he started having some joint problems. There is a reason why there's a due date in cottage cheese. I found that out a few times. That's a good way of putting it. You can't outrun Father Tom. He's so big at 48 with no weightlifting.

It seems like to be that big, you'd have to throw some weights around. You would think. Yeah. I mean, I've never seen anyone with that type of musculature that just did it on body weight training. But that's not to say that maybe he's an exception to the rule. He just might be that type of, you know, have that type of genetics, you know? Yeah, that is the other thing, too. It's just some folk.

Larry is doing some body weight exercises. Looks damn good even there. Yeah. Yeah. He's not quite as ripped as he was back in the day, but he looks freaking phenomenal. Dude was a super athlete. I mean, that's the thing about football

is that they get the big super athletes. The really big, strong guys. The biggest, strongest, fastest athletes pretty much go NFL in this country. They can make so much money. Well, I mean, yeah, that's where the money is. I mean, NBA guys are pretty big too, but they're taller and more rangy, you know, but the real power guys are just, you know.

Look at him running sprints. Jesus Christ. That's not a sprinter. What size of him? That's a goddamn water buffalo. But for sure, you know, I've seen guys build tremendous physiques just with body weight training. Yeah.

One of my all-time favorites was this guy, Woody Strode. He was the black gladiator in the original Spartacus opposite Kirk Douglas. Oh, wow. Old school. Yeah, bring up Woody Strode. How do he spell his last name? S-T-R-O-D-E. Strode.

He was one of the original body weight trainers. Ah. And a lot of people don't realize, but that fight scene in the original Spartacus was one of the most dangerous fight scenes ever filmed. They actually fought with real weapons. What? And they had trained for three months, according to Kirk Douglas' biography. They had trained for three months with those weapons in order to put on that fight scene. And Strode just had a magnificent physique, man.

That's terrifying. They used real weapons to show a movie scene? Yeah, and they did the fight, and they had rehearsed that. Imagine, three months now of rehearsing, and Strode was also a stuntman. Wow. And that scene where he jumps up to,

remember he defies the Roman patrician who orders Spartacus' death, and Strode runs up and grabs the wall and pulls himself up. He says he's probably the only stunt guy in Hollywood that could have pulled that off at that time. It's like a 10-foot wall. He jumps up there and grabs it with his fingers and does this, kind of almost like a muscle up, like he's trying to get this guy. Wow.

Because he's defying Rome. He refuses to kill the character of Spartacus. Cool movie, man. Kirk Douglas was in pretty good shape back then too. Yeah, Kirk, he did his training. He was training with Woody at the time doing the bodyweight training. Do you work out with any other athletes at any other sports besides MMA guys? I know you've trained quite a few MMA guys.

Diego Sanchez, you trained him infamously for his BJ Penn fight. But what about other athletes and other sports? I've trained a couple of NFL guys. David Akers, that used to be the famous field goal kicker. He used to come and do jiu-jitsu with us as well as do some conditioning work. Didn't you have an issue with him where he was kicking with one leg all the time so he was developing problems? He had chronic hamstring pulls on his non-kicking leg, him where he was kicking with one leg all the time because so he was developing problems he he had a

chronic hamstring pulls on his non-kicking leg which was his right leg was his non-kicking like he was a left foot kicker and uh so at my suggestion i said hey why not balance yourself out you're kicking like 50 kicks a day which is a lot of kicks but you're not doing anything for the other side yeah so start kicking with the other side. And lo and behold, hamstring problems disappeared. Well, I wanted to ask you about that because I'm getting into archery and I've got this bow and it's 90 pounds. That's a pretty hefty bow.

I'm pulling 90 pounds all the time with my right arm. Is this a compound bow? Yeah. With the pulley system? Yeah. Wow. I should probably get a 90 pound bow for my left arm too, huh? Well, what I would do is just hold the bow and just do some rows with it.

You can't grab it with your other hand. It's the way it's... I'll show you. I'll show you afterwards. Well, then get yourself, like, a chest expander. Is that good enough? Yeah. What about rows?

I've been doing rows. Yeah, you can do rows. I do 10 or 15 rows every day. But you would want a similar movement pattern, right? Well, I do it like that. I do it like this. So are you holding it with your right hand or your left hand? I hold the bow with my left.

Left and pull it back with my right. Okay. So take a chest expander, like the old school rubber chest expanders, and just start pulling just to balance yourself out. Okay. Yeah. You know, I worked a fairly well-known baseball player by the name of David Bell. I'd been working his wife out for a couple years. I didn't even realize that she was married to a Philadelphia Philly. And then

one day she says, hey, man, my husband's having some serious problems. He's in pain a lot. And I like you to take a look at him. So David comes up and I ask him, hey, how many times a week do you throw a baseball with your right hand? And he looked at me like, thousands of reps. And I just simply said, what are you doing for your opposite side? And he looked at me like, wow, I never thought about that. And I'm thinking, well, for sure, a baseball guy has to have some top trainers, right? Wouldn't you think that one of those guys would have figured that out?

That if you have a guy throwing thousands and thousands of balls with your one side, wouldn't it make sense to do something with your left? They don't want to look like a girl. So, well, I gave him one of those little clubs, you know, a little Indian club. What's that? Oh, we're running out of time. Oh, my God. We did three hours.

Holy shit. I got your, look, go to MaxwellSC.com. How much time we got left? Ten seconds. Ten seconds. It's over. Thanks to our sponsor. This fucking thing's over. Steve Maxwell, you're awesome. Fantastic seconds. It's over. Thanks to our sponsor. This fucking thing is over.

Steve Maxwell, you're awesome. Fantastic podcast. Thank you, man. So much fun. We ran out of time. See you guys later. Bye, everybody. For folks still listening, the audio, thanks to Ting.

Go to rogan.ting.com and save yourself some money. And also for Steve, all of June he's going to be in Germany, Frankfurt, Cologne, Munich, all of July in the U.K., Edinburgh, London, Stockport, Lancashire, August 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, Revgear University, RevgearUniversity.com, presenting kettlebell and medicine ball courses. And thanks to Black Belt Soap. That's your buddy's company, right? Yeah, in Maui. In Maui. Black Belt Soap. Okay.

And MaxwellSC.com is the website that I've been looking to the whole time that we've been talking to you. Fantastic website. A lot of interesting stuff there. And people could sign up there and go and get your online course and become one of the 60 people that you have to handle every day. God, there's a lot of people to deal with. That's awesome, though. Thanks again, man. Time flew by.

Let's do it again. Do it again next time you're back in town. For sure. Thanks, Mel. All right. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you soon. This fucking podcast is over.

Good night. Good night. Good night.