The Joe Rogan Experience - #524 - Rickson Gracie & Eddie Bravo

Episode Date: July 21, 2014

Rickson Gracie is a Brazilian 8th degree black and red belt in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and a retired mixed martial artist. Eddie Bravo is a jiujitsu black belt, music producer, and author. He also hosts his own podcast called Eddie Bravo Radio.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. All right, we're live. First of all, thank you very much for doing this. I appreciate it. Out of all the people online, whenever things get brought up for mixed martial arts guests or jiu-jitsu guests, it's always get Hicks and Gracie on the podcast. So the clouds have parted, the stars have aligned, and you're here, and we appreciate it very much. I'm very thankful too, Joe and Eddie, to be with you guys here and have this conversation.

here and have this conversation. It's funny because last time we talked in my house a while ago, of course, you make me some questions, you're curious, you're all about knowing what has in my mind. And at this point, I was the talker. And, you know, in the past, and the time goes by and today I can see after all this process of evolutionary process in the MMA and the martial arts world I mean since then I've been watching you doing your job do commenting fights analyzing other fighters and today I can see man you are red belt in the whole in the whole extension of the the world you know everything you i mean if i have a question i have to call you and ask you what's up because i'm very very i mean impressed with your career with your charisma with the way

you you position your opinions it's all very precise so I'm very happy to be here and discuss some talks and talk with you. Thank you, brother. That's an honor to me, and it was an honor for me to hang out with you that night. It was really cool. We had dinner with your family, and then we watched some fights, and it was really interesting watching fights with you and watching you break down positions and break down mistakes that people were making, and I've told a lot of people about that, man. I've told a lot of people about that, man. I've told a lot of people about that night. That documentary, Choke, that is one document that I've told people. If you're really interested in jiu-jitsu, you really want to find out what the spirit of jiu-jitsu is all about,

watch the documentary, Choke. That documentary is so inspirational. They followed you, was it in 94, 95? Yeah, 95 going into 96 and you were fighting in japan in the japan valley tudor and it documented a lot of your training and documented your philosophy and man whenever i if ever i need some motivation i'll slap that dvd on you just get fired up you want to go do some yoga on the beach or something yeah Yeah, it was fun. How did that come about? What? That documentary.

Well, it was a project with a student of mine who was working with the Polygran and also the comp. So we decided to follow up to the event. And so they have a crew following a couple of fighters and follow myself to see what's going to happen at the event. So it was a nice introduction to a preparation, to the mindset of a fighter. Either myself or Todd Haynes, who was another, and also the Japanese guy who was also involved in the filming. So it was a cool primal experience to an MMA fight like a Vale Tudo fight. Well, it was very eye-opening for a lot of fighters who looked at mixed martial arts. A lot of them come from a wrestling background,

and they looked at mixed martial arts more of like as a sport. Just be tough. You know, you got to get up. You got to train hard. You got to run hard. You got to lift hard. And your philosophy was much more like a sport. Just be tough. You know, you got to get up, you got to train hard, you got to run hard, you got to live hard. And your philosophy was much more like a samurai. Your philosophy was much deeper, much more meditation based. And we got to see you doing yoga. You, you, I think you opened up a lot of people's eyes to a different mindset involved in preparation, but also to yoga.

That was the first time I had ever seen a martial artist that was really into yoga. Yes, I think for the athlete in general, the breathing, understanding of the breathing is a big plus because stretch your, I mean, by hyperventilating, you stretch your physical potential. By know how to breathe properly, you relax. You can bring your heart beats lower. There's a lot of elements in the breathing who are involved with controlling emotions, getting more energy, and so on. So as I get exposed to breathing properly, I get addicted. And I felt like it was a huge element of, you know, in addition to the techniques, in addition to the heart and to the heart training, learning the breath is much more into the sport today.

So it's a process of knowing. Now I see Cron, my son. I mean, before he's just like, see, oh, dad, I see you training and breathing. But now he's coming to me and said, dad, this makes all the difference in the world. When I really, you know, start to getting tired, to make hyperventilation and keep my mind like sharp. Because sometimes if you get tired, there's not enough oxygen in the blood to fuel your sharpness in your mind. So you become a little stupid, a little slower, you know. So by having a good, knowing how to hyperventilate, you're able to maximize this oxygen.

So even though the acetylactic take over your body, your mind is still sharp and you're still responding accordingly. So it's a great thing to do. You were born into the greatest jiu-jitsu family, the greatest martial arts family of all time. I mean, there's no doubt about it. There's not even a second place. There's the Gracie family. And then there's, you know, I guess you could have a debate about who comes in second, but it's kind of ridiculous. That is the number one martial arts family of all time.

And you obviously learned jiu-jitsu from a very early age, but how did you get involved into the yoga? Oh, it was, you know, I'm very happy to be related with this master called Orlando Cani, which was the precursor of the Ginásica Natural. I was learning at the same time Alvaro Romano, who is the guy who is now making the tapes. We're learning together, you know. And at that point, I was just practicing with him like he loved my father. He's an older guy who's a very tough athlete and also a yoga teacher.

So he combined, he developed some kind of style of yoga, which is not exactly a postural, like postures and breathing to relax or to achieve meditation. It was more like an active breathing for athletes. And in order for you to jump higher, you have to know how to have harmony between your jump and your breathing. You want to keep more strength for a more long time. You have to know how to breathe accordingly to promote that. So he was always in the active breathing.

And then we started doing privates, and I was in his place for a couple of months. He's guiding me through the moves in front of a mirror in a nice room. One day, we were about to start the class, and as soon as we were about to start, We about to start the class. And soon we about to start, he was calling the phone. And he said to me, Hickson, you keep going and I'll be right back. So for the first time, I was able to breathe, make my routine without follow him up, without having my mind focused on what he was doing.

So I start to breathe and move and breathe and move. And then, it has some woods on the walls. We kind of imitate monkeys to climb the wood and stuff. So at one point, I come back to reality. And then I was on top of the highest frame in the wall, sweating like a pig. And then I look around and start to come back to reality. And I saw him on the corner crying. And then I said, what's up, man? What's going on? He said, man, you don't have to learn anything else from me. You achieve the highest level of get empty mind. And then I kind of said, why say that? why say that said yeah because you're here for an hour

15 minutes and completely off i mean you didn't notice anything because he was applying the development of the animal instinct which takes your brain off your your mind your your concentration and keep you more like an instinctive animal. And that was the vision. And through this, because before that, I was doing transcendental meditation. I did traditional yoga. And those never did great for me. In the meditation, I was sleeping. By doing that kind of routine, I was able to not just breathe properly, but also achieve empty mind.

And I was like in a state, a meditation state for a long time, like not concentrating in anything like rational. Oh, he's there or he's... So I was able to achieve like an empty mind. So I was able to achieve like an empty mind. And after I noticed that, I started to practice my routines to get that same feeling of emptiness. And that kind of meditation works for me as no other one. And I felt like being an empty mind increases my, I don't know, my intuition increases my my sense of of energy and so it was incredible for me because i could get in touch more comfortably with my i mean my third vision i don't know exactly explain but i could achieve a completely peace of mind in that kind of routine so i was

stick for life so you just got into this state and you could just exist no conscious thought no thinking about anything around you no past no future just exist is in that moment with no context yes and that's a kind of a weird positive feeling because you capable to be present in a sense which if if you have your mind set, if you have something, expectations, you're never there. So I was able to be very confident, very easily to get into that situation where even prior to the fight, I'm able to sleep on the locker room,

making my workout, getting a high, very high heartbeat. And then like five minutes before, I make my praise, I make my meditation, and I kind of cool off my heartbeat to 60, 60 heartbeats a minute. So I was able to engage very hot and with the hard, very hard, low heartbeat. And as the fight progressed, the pace is very hard. If I'm 60, he is 80. When I'm 80, he's 100. When I'm 100, he's 120.

When I'm 120, he's 45. So when he started to have to regroup, I was still having to go forward. So at that point, my opponents always lose a little bit his pay so it's a time for me to make the the kill you know so it was always working properly for me the breathing was always working very well so this empty mind state enhanced your jiu-jitsu this ability to achieve this state on top of all the techniques on top of all the training and the

instincts this took it to the next level. Yes, because, you know, at one point, if you allow yourself to be present, you not commit to the offense or to the defense. You commit to give nothing and take everything. So you give me opportunity, I will be there. If you try to surprise me, I will be there accordingly defending myself. So it's all on the table it's like no surprises because there's no expectations so keeping a cool mind even when it's boiling is something i felt like was always like something which give me an edge because i was there just to

either catch what is there or resolve the problem never disappoint or never uh late no expectation yeah and it's always late i mean sometimes you get late because you plan something in a fight and it doesn't happen so if oh you start to be disappointed so for me it was always like whatever happened i'm there i'm happy finding comfortable, finding the sharpness to achieve success, you know, so. It was great. You grew up in this jiu-jitsu family, but you were always, at least from most people's interpretation, you were always the best guy

out of the family. How did that happen? How did you rise above all the rest? I mean, you grew up with a bunch of killers. Yes, everybody's training hard. Everybody was pushing to the maximum. And for one point, I feel like I was dedicated. I'm a perfectionist.

I'm competitive in my heart. But some elements I get was more like a God gift. It's not exactly something I choose. So we're training all the same. Why my brother, I can play with my brothers and they cannot have a chance with me. So that's kind of hard to explain. It's not me trying to do this.

This just happened. It's myself trying to be my best, plus the emotional control control the peace of mind it was all you know for example my love my my beloved brother Hoyler he's a great fighter but sometimes he get too emotional you know and that's sometimes makes him choose the wrong path. So, Royce, he's a great fighter, but sometimes he gets a little confused. He's not having the sharp offensive attitude, so sometimes something slips, and so on.

So, I don't exactly know why I'm I'm the one I just have to represent and be you know happy to be the one and I tell you man all the opportunities I have to represent I did already so I feel like completely comfortable and in myself saying okay I have nothing to prove to myself. I did all. And, you know, I'm very happy with the results. So jiu-jitsu for life. Jiu-jitsu for life, indeed. Your brother. That's Anan.

Who's Anan? Jamie. That's Anan. Check. Check. Sorry. Check, check, check. There we go.

You had a cousin, Holes Gracie. Yes. Legendary Holes Gracie, the legendary Holes Gracie. Actually, Holes is, in the DNA, he's my cousin. But he was living in my house

since I was born because my uncle, as he divorced from his wife, Holes' mother, he gave, my father was just get married, so he give Hall's to be care to my father and mother.

So he was like your brother? So he's my older brother because Hordeon coming just after and then Helson and then when I born like eight years, nine years later, I was the little one living with Hall's, Hordeon and Helson for a fall, you know

So it's my brother. There's no way to see him differently. He was known as a Guy who went all over the world studied Samba Studied us some catch wrestling and the wrestlers and he would bring that back, right? Yes. What would you credit holes in? Bringing leg locks into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? Is he the one? Yes. I mean, the leg locks specifically was not something I kind of get the major information from Halls. It was funny.

One day, Eric Paulson was a good student and a very good friend. Eric Paulson was a good student and a very good friend. He brought a tape for me from Japan with Shoto. Shoto Wrestling. And I saw the new locks in the Shoto Wrestling, you know? Some guys fighting and I saw it and I kind of interesting. And then next day I start to apply it. And then it was funny because he coming to me afterwards said Hickson you mean I give you the tape one day next day we're submitting everybody on the knee lock so yeah you

would say you learn more leg locks from Eric Paulson's tape then holes yeah I mean holes it was not specifically I led lock guy you know there's a picture of him with a Sambo shirt on. Yeah, yeah. People go, look, look, he studied, he was a master of Sambo. No, no. We go in Sambo as we go in any other, we go in representing Jiu-Jitsu against Sambo, you know? And in the Pan American Games, we went in San Diego.

It was like very interesting because the fighters, they don't expect so much submissions. And we start immediately because tough wrestlers, tough judo players. So we start immediately bringing the fight to the ground and go for foot locks and knee locks. And immediately, I mean, in the first qualification phase, they start to tapping a lot and then the referees start to become kind of little skeptical about that they start to become more so once

Halls grabbed them in the footlock especially in the in the final match in his weight division he get the guy in the footlock the referee stopped the fight and said no you cannot get the footlock on the joint you have have to get it on the shin. And then it's kind of confusing, you know, and cutting. That's why Hollis lost the finals in this event. This was in the 70s? Was, I think, 80s, 81 or 80. So they were trying to cut him out?

Yeah, the referees started getting upset because, like, what's funny, we're supposed to come in with a team from brazil of of 12 guys and we're expecting like a support from the government and then the government at very last time very last moment didn't didn't give to us so my father paid to us to come so just me carlos gracie jr and halls so we come in to compete in this event and how old were you at this time you must have been like 18 or something yes 19 something like that and then uh we coming and i was in the like my way division which is one above halls and halls was below me and car Carlos was on top of me so we kind of having one in each division and as the competition progress the referees start to see those three guys from Brazil just submitting everybody because in Sambo chokes are not allowed

no headlocks no no collar chokes it's only knee locks foot locks, or straight arm bars. You cannot even do the Americanas because it goes in the chokes. So we just go in trying to do foot locks because those are the easiest way. So we start to finish the guys, and they start to say, oh, this guy's coming and do foot locks. And everybody may complain. I don't know if they... But it's Sambo, though. Isn't that what they...

Yeah, that's what they do is foot locks. It's now. Now. Back then, there wasn't foot locks. Yeah. It's so interesting how... Wait a minute....'t foot locks. Yeah, it's so interesting how that's changed. No, it was legal, but it was not used, especially in the Sambo and American concepts. Russia, maybe.

Yeah. But American Sambo focused on what, mostly? They are more like to control. The rules are, if you pin the guy for 30 seconds, it's like wrestling. Not as long, but you still win like judo. And as you attempt the pin, every time the guy passes the back on the ground, you're still making points. So in my final match, I guess a guy from the Air Force,

very strong guy with maybe wrestling and judo background, and he was whipping my ass, man. He's just like, in the first, like, three rounds, three minutes. In the first round, he stay on top all the time. And because being in the guard, you're losing points. The score is about 12 or 14 points in the first round. In the second round, it's about 18 or 20. I tell you, in the very final round round i was about 26 or something points against zero

you know and i was just trying to do my thing and then one like maybe a minute before the very final round i swept him and mounted and he is the same time I mounted, he tried to push me away. And I get like a moving arm lock. And he not even tap. He just yell. So, and then I win the fight like in the very final seconds. And you were down 20-something. Yes, I was like, points are not even chance.

I'm not there to win by points. I was there just to see if I can submit. It's fascinating. And then the guy tap like 15 seconds before the fight is end and then like the whole crowd was like ahhh and then everything kind of whoo. And then just few guys like eeeeee. It was pretty fun. So when Eric Paulson showed you these tapes of Shudo in the 90s probably, you were already

doing leg locks a little bit, right? Not really, I locks i always love straight foot lock yes and then what eric paulson showed you was like fancy knee bars and stuff yes because from the guard you just spin around and go with the straight knee lock things so i get amazed i get amazed by this kind and i start to develop you know very quickly it was just adapt to my game and was an addition to the arsenal. You know, it was great. It's funny when you look back at old Eric Paulson fights in Japan, you look at the stuff he was doing, and people today still aren't even doing that. He's way ahead of the game, too.

Eric Paulson was an encyclopedia of submissions. Him and Matt Hume. Yep. Like, those guys back then it looked like like advanced jiu-jitsu and of course you know anytime you got the mount there was always an arm bar you know yeah but but you know that time eric was being training very consistently for us he's a good a good brother and a training partner he's always been a great warrior and i have a lot of respect for him great guy very very knowledgeable guy isn't it fascinating that we've seen just in the time that I started training in from 96 on this

Adoption of leg locks in jiu-jitsu. Yes in the early in the 90s It used to be that leg locks were frowned upon when someone went for leg locks people get really upset Hickson Were you at the first Pan American Games in? locks people get really upset hickson were you at the first pan-american games in 1996 in or 1997 here in el segundo in la you must have been there right do you remember that they it was the first pan-americans there was like 500 brazilians they shipped them all they they were it was an invasion it was an invasion of brazilians and there was the crazy thing is i was a blue belt in jujitsu and i saw ken shamrock tape of a toehold so i was a blue belt in jiu-jitsu, and I saw a Ken Shamrock tape of a toehold. So I was a blue belt doing toeholds at John Jock Machado's academy,

and I competed in the tournament, and so did Eric Paulson. And when I went for a toehold in this tournament, all the Brazilians started throwing. There was almost a riot. They called the cops. They were throwing shoes at me. And Johnny Machado, I'll never forget him running and slow-mo sliding. had the toe hold and Johnny goes you gotta let it go you gotta so I had the toe hold and I'm looking around so I let it go people are throwing shoes at me and water bottles

and stuff it was like a big deal and I ended up losing I let it go and afterwards Eric Paulson's in the parking lot it was just me and him he was a blue belt as well. And he was like, he was a kid. We were like the same age, but he was like, I was like a little kid. And he's like, you know, let me talk to you, kid. And he goes, let me show you a couple of leg locks. So he showed me a couple of things like this weirdest leg lock that doesn't work. And he admits it now that it was garbage. But he showed me this leg lock.

He showed me this leg lock where you go like this, this weird thing in the parking lot. And I'll never forget that. I was like, man, this guy's the only guy who understands that I like toe holds. And he was on my podcast not too long ago, and I asked him about that movie. He goes, do you remember that movie? He goes, oh, yeah, it's garbage. It's trash. He doesn't want to forget it.

He raised that one. Yeah, forget about that one. Isn't it fascinating, though, how these ideas, they get innovated, and within our lifetime, they sort of get implemented, and they get weeded out. The ones that work wind up staying. The ones that don't work fall by the wayside. What do you think about the IBJJF banning heel hooks?

Do you think that's a good thing? I like to, first, of course, it's a pleasure to talk about all this. And I can answer that because I feel like the heel hooks has to be implemented in the top level fighters. Because it's a solid technique. But because it's designed to stretch the ligaments, not the joint. There's a difference between you going in your finger this way, you're going to feel pain before it breaks. Yeah. But if you go this way, you're going to resist until it pops. So it's just ligaments, it's not a joint.

This is a joint, this is a ligament. So when you twist the knee, the guy can still resist, and when he feels, he's going to feel the pop. He's not going to feel the pain to tap. So this is, in a way, if you don't have the experience, you're going to bust your knee. So we don't want to see guys with busted knees just because they're tough or just because they don't know. So we forbid in a whole the new hooks but in the in an advanced level like metamorris or like premium pros I would I think they should back

bring back in because this is part of the game and you have to be responsible to let it broke or tap and especially a guy like toquino when you see Paul Harris he's such a master at it. It's exciting to watch that guy fight to see how guys are going to deal with that. Well, Abu Dhabi still allows heel hooks, right? Abu Dhabi allows. In my experience, I've been teaching now 10 years. And I allow heel hooks from day one only because as an instructor,

I don't want some leg lock guy coming into my school and tapping everybody out with leg locks. So I wanted all my guys to be very well-versed in leg locks. And in my experience, we reap, we heel hook, white belts. I can't even tell you the last time someone got hurt from a heel hook. I don't even know. Maybe once in 10 years. Yeah, I think that kind of education,

that's kind of positive because gives the guy the sense if he feels the problem, he has to tap in advance. He cannot allow the pop to happen because you're going to bust your knee. And in Naga and Grappler's Quest, they allow heel hooks

and you rarely ever hear about anybody getting hurt. I think once you learn how to defend it it's actually people don't want to people will tap generally and some people that don't tap like gary tonin was talking about the first time as someone got him in a heel hook and his knee popped a few times he thought well if i tap now it already popped why should i tap i should just keep going going now. And if someone, I think if someone's going to let their knee pop or get hurt, I think it's their responsibility to tap. And if it pops, is it really a big deal? I mean, it's part of the game. People get hurt. People get their knees blown out in basketball way more than jujitsu. Again. Soccer. Yeah. Again, in 10 years,

I can't even tell you that maybe leg compressions a couple times guys have had their knees pop from leg compressions and even lockdown i've had a couple guys get their knee popped but heel hooks and reaping that's not something that i ever had to say we got to slow down be careful with the knee reaps just no one really gets hurt what seems to be a technique that when people were ignorant of it, that's when people were really getting hurt more. Yeah. Yeah, well, sometimes when they really want to go for the hurt,

they don't visualize the possibilities to hurt. So they go and go full power from the beginning to the end. So it's not even a chance for the guy to tap. He's already tapping late. So that's more like the mindset of the guy who's attacking. If he wants to break your knee it's a great chance to do that in a heel and when we were adding wrestling to our jiu-jitsu classes trying to combine it now we separate we have separate wrestling classes and separate jiu-jitsu

class but at a time when i was trying to combine it together we would have a day where we just do wrestling and we do live wrestling drills and we're all standing up that's where everyone got hurt and it got to a point where- Because people collided with each other? Just trying to take someone down and tackling them. They plant on their leg wrong. Einstein broke his leg wrestling. His leg broke because he planted on it wrong. He got picked up.

So there came a point where I decided, you know what? Too many guys are getting hurt on wrestling day. So I cut wrestling out. And if you want to wrestle, you go to the wrestling class. In my class, it's just jujitsu. But but we do allow reaping we do allow heel hooks and there's no one getting hurt from that more from the wrestling there's a famous match where you had with uh mark schultz what what was what happened in that because that's a very famous uh encounter and there's a movie coming out called Foxcatcher that's based on, do you know the story behind this movie?

What was the guy's name that was responsible, Foxcatcher? It was based on, there was the two brothers, Mark Schultz and David Schultz. Oh, the one guy that got killed? Mark Schultz and David Schultz. David Schultz got killed, and it's based on this guy, John DuPont, who was this crazy rich guy who was taking these wrestlers, and he was, I don't know, it was some weird gay shit. There was something weird about him. He'd pay for privates.

Well, not just that. He set up a training center and paid them a lot of money and just get real weird with them and wrestle with these guys. But he was like this old dude. It wasn't like he was a guy who was really fit and really into training and learning techniques. It was just real weird. And he wound up shooting. They creep through every now and then.

They do. Well, he was a billionaire. I mean, he was a super, super rich guy. So this movie is actually about to come out now. But his brother, Mark Schultz, fought in the UFC, Olympic gold medalist, fantastic wrestler, like all-time great wrestler. And you and he had an encounter. Yeah, I was in Utah visiting my instructor, Pedro.

Pedro Sauer? Yes. And then we were invited to go to the BYU where he was coaching the wrestling team there. And as I get there, you know, looking for training stuff, and eventually he said, okay, let's train a little bit. And then immediately we engage. Immediately he went to my guard. And almost immediately he's stepping out.

And then he was not happy at all. Would you put him in a triangle, an arm lock? Yeah, triangle first. From the guard. Yes. And then he becomes a little more smart. So it was a long second round. Eventually, I went to his back and submitted him again.

And after a few sessions, I made him tap some. And he was very impressed. Like, wow, nobody did this with me. I mean, what's going on? I mean, he was stronger than me. I mean, of course, a warrior. And he was not happy. I mean, somebody said once once you show me a good

loser and I show you a loser so he was not happy at all and of course I understood that and but eventually he he he's settled and he understood was a technique involved and he started to become training with Pedro and become e ele começou a treinar com o Pedro e se tornou apaixonado por Jiu Jitsu, treinou muito e se tornou um apoiador da causa do Jiu Jitsu em Utah e foi uma ótima experiência porque eu senti todo o nível de treinamento e controle do corpo que ele tem and body control he has, but still, like, at that point, the wrestlers have no clue what is, you know, submission. So it was kind of, you know, a surprising thing for them, which doesn't happen those days. Do you remember specifically what moves,

holes brought from wrestling and from Sambo? A good way distribution, a good way to ways to like if the guy grab you you able to to to make the movement to go to his back like a good turnovers a good excellent sense of no gi base control good grips to arm drags and stuff yeah things like a very you, he was training a lot with Bob Anderson. Yes, yes. So he was a good friend of Bob Anderson, and Bob Anderson went to Brazil. So it was like he was the one who brought the wrestling ideas and concepts because he pushed us once to compete in Olympic wrestling.

So Halls was always for me a reference. As I was growing up, he was the champion. And he was just an unbelievable guy with a good heart and passion for jiu-jitsu, loved to represent. And he was my idol, you know, as I was growing up. And I tried to follow his footsteps. And as I was growing up, we all to follow his footsteps and as I growing up we all trained hard among each other with father so my goal was beat Halls you know my goal was be better than him and let's suppose our last 30 training maybe

he beat me like in the first two or three. And then we spent maybe 20 trainings or maybe 25 trainings. Even up, like back and forth, I start to get more and more into his game and what this strategy to catch me. And I start to become more comfortable in the surviving. And then in one point, I start to getting the advantage in the training because no luck either you better or not so inconsistently I start to become more comfortable and then eventually I start to getting the advantage in some positions and then in one day

and the in the range of my father like in a weekend we all get together has a huge match so I was training with him and I submit him first time you know would you get him with oh man was like a you know here no key we so you're not even remember I think was some kind of choke or something but what I remember it was the feeling I felt by achieving my goal, I was making him feel like he was losing his position. And I felt, the same way I felt happy, I felt sad because it was not his anymore. It's myself, my responsibility now.

And we know that, and nobody knew. I mean, nobody knew. I mean, of course, people saw the training, but at that point, I felt like I was there still to support him, but I was better than him. And we're still competing in the events coming, and we always close the bracket because he goes in his weight division, I go in mine. And we go together in the open division.

So we always close the open, you know. And I never will fight, I mean, up to that day, he always being the first and I'm the second. The medal is his. Even though I knew I could maybe change this, you know, I never, ever will. If he's still alive, he will be the number one

and I'm number two based on respect, based in hierarchy. So once he pass away, I have to take over, you know, and represent fully. But he's my inspiration.

And he's a great guy. I miss him dearly. He died in a tragic hang gliding accident. How old were you at that time? Oh, I was maybe 20, 22, something like that. So he was there when you fought Zulu? Yes, he was there. He was my coach.

He was in my corner with my dad. For people out there that don't know what I'm talking about, the Zulu match that you had was one of the... That's like watching an old Ali match. Can you put that up, Jamie? Actually... Hickson versus Zulu. Yes.

I really, you know, this conversation goes very well. And I mean, I really appreciate you talking about the past, but I like to make a little pause on this and really bring up the most, because we have to live today. We have to be motivated. And I'm very happy today to come here to explain and talk about this new venture I'm involved with,

which is the new JJGF, Jiu-Jitsu Global Federation. Because talking about jiu-jitsu, talking about rules, talking about the future of jiu-jitsu, I think we're having a huge problem to be resolved, and that is crucial for the future. I see like this new organization will bring to the table the elements to resolve our problem, you know. I think our biggest problem today in the Jiu-Jitsu community is losing effectiveness.

in the jiu-jitsu community is losing effectiveness. We've been losing effectiveness drastically from the last 15 years because the way in order for us to restore effectiveness, I felt very appealing to me to engage in this venture, which through this federation, we're going to try to resolve three important, I mean, we have three pillars of action to try to resolve that problem Jiu-Jitsu has. Effectiveness in what? In MMA? Effectiveness.

In like a fight? No, no. Effectiveness. I'm going to? No, no, effectiveness. I'm going to explain to you because it's different. Efficiency and effectiveness. Today, I see the top camp champions very efficient on getting medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life. And if you see jiu-jitsu as I grow up, the core of jiu-jitsu was self-defense, is preparing the student to handle situations. Today, the evolutionary process of jiu-jitsu

brought the sport of jiu-jitsu and those rules, diminishing that effectiveness in the search for the medal so and like nothing can be boring for me more boring then watch some fights in jiu-jitsu tournaments those days I believe it I mean they can choose between stepping the brake or stepping on the gas. They can choose because the rules favor, if you are strategically correct, you may want to go in the fight to fight a situation where you can control the pace of the fight, you can manage the whole tank, and eventually by one or two moves, you get advantage and win the medal. So great, you have the medal. But sometimes that shows a lack of desire to compete,

a lack of desire to engage in a fair fight. A lot of times I see a white belt or a blue belt or a purple belt fight, which is much more appealing, has much more open situations of changing positions than a black belt who sometimes sits on the floor and is stuck in a position who holds, stalling the whole action. So by doing that, he's efficient on getting the medal, but he's losing effectiveness to handle real life. That's why it's hard to see a jiu-jitsu representative

on the cage who translates that. I mean, I see jiu-jitsu translate today something I feel like I never will fight like that. The guy is a jiu-jitsu practitioner for life. He's great, he's talented, he's tough, he's sometimes a champion, but he don't fight the way I believe he's supposed to be fighting there. You know, he has no

idea of clinching, he has no idea of sidekick, he has no idea of a valetudo guard. They have a sportive guard all the time, trying to do homoplatas, you know, instead and the guy on top just hamming them down. So, it's kind of weird because without

that kind of efficiency, I mean, I'm sorry, effectiveness, jiu-jitsu is losing, you know, it's losing the integrity, the whole culture, the whole concepts I trust and I believe all my life. So if I can clarify, your issue is with points and with advantage points? Yes. For example, this new situation will be this federation is not there to compete with other organizations. I'm not there to – I'm doing the job was not done yet, you know. Based on this platform, this state-of-the-art platform, we try to have three different elements to work with. The information. I think the vision is to perform something, a good service. My intention with this is to serve the community community the worldwide jiu-jitsu community

and the sport of jiu-jitsu thinking that i have three different elements the first one is the communication aspect the information through the site you're going to have a listing of all the academies on the planet we have a listing of all athletes' profiles, downloads of fights. So they will have the option to request sponsors, show themselves. It's like a Google slash Facebook for the community. And also we're going to have a master's council, which brings all the guys who have traditionally spent their lives in the jiu-jitsu community to have a voice, active voice for the community. So in the forums, sometimes somebody makes a question about a position.

So the masters will be involved in answers if they want, and they will be highlighted because that's his opinion, that's my opinion. So people, the community is going to start to evaluate what's beneficial and what's negative, what the master has to say. So it creates a network which is most needed to unify the community. I see the community today completely split. Some federations have their own circuit, some others. So it's 30 events one side, another 30 on the other side, and then has, you know, NAGA 7, Grappler Quest, have DREAM, have IBJJF.

So all this is completely disorganized and completely split. So my intention is bring to the community a sense of unification based on this information. Like another important point is have contributors from all over to bringing the reports of what's happening in this event, who is the champion, who is that, news and everything. Because some magazines today, they're completely partial. They just will talk and explain about their athletes or in their society. It does not cover the whole community. So through this information, this solid, efficient, general information, the whole community will be informed, will be connected, will be asking and being listened.

So I think that's very important for the community. Another big pillar of our federation is the competition aspect, which by changing rules, we restore effectiveness. How we do that? Cutting the advantages, because the advantage for me is like a ball in the ring. It's just touch the ring, doesn't make a point. How are you going to make a half point? It's very hard to interpret what is really real and what is not. What's almost, I mean, doesn't matter how many goals you try and hit the post.

The score is what matters, you know. So a half point just creates a controversy and interpretation for the referee. So it becomes a very confused way. So back to the reality, you just go for clear points. And also another important thing is give minus points for stalling positions. What is a stalling position? It's a position where you hold with the intention to preserve the position, to preserve the control of the dynamic of the fight.

You stalling because you want to be in control by using what I call an anti-jiu-jitsu move, which prevents you from keep action. Because the idea is both engage and see who's the best who's submit who's passing who is mounting who is getting and sometimes people to minimize that risk they kind of keeping the the situation under a control the position they can control the sleeves putting the leg entangled so he's comfortable to to proceed until the point he needs to make a little advantage. So this diminishes the effectiveness because this kind of strategy doesn't work in real life. So they'll be punished for that?

Yes. And he's grabbing the collar. Yeah, so they're grabbing, the referee comes and says, hey, man, watch your grip. After 20 seconds, he already got a minus point. After that, they're going to get minus again, and then eventually he's going to be the kill. then they're going to get minus again, and then eventually he's going to be de-killed. Is it subject to interpretation whether a guy is stalling, whether a guy is just, if they're canceling each other out?

I'm sorry? Is it subject to interpretation whether it's stalling or whether or not they're canceling each other out? Like one guy's trying to advance, the other guy's stopping him for advance. They're just both looking for the opening. Yeah, but you can see easily who is wants to progress and who is wants to just control the position for this guy who don't want to progress he will be i mean you can know i mean in theory maybe is but if you see it you can see who is just trying to minimize the action and try to wait for their opportunity and the other one who's

trying to make it happen you know what? What about submission-only tournaments? Do you like those? Yeah, the Federation also has this kind of rule. We have two sets of rules. The point rules, system for tournaments, and we have the challenge rules for, can be even tournament, but for matchmaking, like the Metamorris kind, or any promoter who will try to do something like the baddest purple belt. So it's no weight division.

There's no time limit. He can approach the time as he wishes. Like, okay, we'll be 20 minutes match. We'll be 15 minutes match. We'll be half hour match. What do you think about Gracie Worlds and Gracie Nationals? It's all submission only, and after 15 minutes, minutes if there's no submission they're both disqualified. Yeah I disagree with that that disqualification. I spoke with Rose and she maybe I mean we're gonna

get into the battle for the jiu-jitsu but for me it's the same rules in case of a bracket so I don't feel like both who kind of didn't submit suppose should be disqualified because sometimes in the same bracket two tough guys they fight each other and they could not submit each other and then some two i mean halfway busters yes they one submit the other so this guy advances and those two are disqualified so I don't think

this is fair somebody has to come in from this so the way I did is the first round goes full force and if the

20 minutes end or 30 minutes end depends off the arrangement after the 30 minutes you ask the guy you wanna fight the guy say yes

and then you ask the guy you wanna fight yes so it's another round so in the second round we still don't have After the 30 minutes you ask the guy you want to fight the guy say yes, and then you ask the guy you want to fight Yes, so it's another round So in the second round, we still don't have positive points But every time the guy put himself in a position and he start to defend himself without attempting to escape or giving the combat just protecting or Resting or whatever the referee gonna say hey hey man keep going acting or you're gonna be penalized so we have negative points for diminishing of combativity so at the end of the second round

if we see like somebody with minus points this one will be the loser you know because he displayed less desire or less gas or less techniques to be on top of the the comp the competition so he's minus because he's defending all the time he was tired or whatever so he gets minus points and then the other guy advances for the the bracket so that's the only change for the submission are you familiar with my i have a submission only tournament as well i don't know if you're aware of that and it's very similar to gracie worlds gracie nationals but the both uh it's 15-minute matches but both competitors aren't disqualified we actually have an overtime round and in the in the overtime it's kind of like soccer i didn't want overtimes to be uh determined by wrestling and a lot of, it's kind of like soccer. I didn't want overtimes to be determined by wrestling.

In a lot of tournaments, it's like you go into overtime and whoever's the best wrestler wins because you get the takedown and then they hold and then they win. So a lot of wrestlers can go into tournaments and go, I'm just going to stall for regulation, take it into overtime and win with my wrestling. So in order to eliminate that, I wanted to know who the best submission artist is,

not who the best wrestler is. So my overtime, each person, like if we went into overtime, you get to start on my back with the leg hooks and an over-under, and then we go. If you submit me, then I get to go on your back, and if you escape, you win. But if I submit you, then we go another round. It's like extra innings. And then the next round, you take my back, you escape, you win. But if I submit you, then we go another round. It's like extra innings.

And then the next round, you take my back, I escape. I take your back and I submit you, I win. That's in a dreamland, of course. But that way, we get to find out who the best is at submitting. We couldn't finish in regulation. Now we go into overtime and we start on each other's backs like free kicks. Yeah, but I think this is a is a valid but you take the element of conquer the position i think the fight has to be even standing up if the wrestlers start to avoiding or if the any avoiding

of combativity supposed to be penalized but a lot you could fake that though like a wrestler could fake it like take shots and oh yeah one thing is for sure in this new federation at the same way we have the master council we're going to have the development council and you're going to be invited right now to be part because i see people like uh you guys are not just know the deal, know the sport, but also have an opinion to make. And my idea is not to write my rules in stone. My idea is to follow the best pattern to create more effectiveness and more dynamic aspects for the sport. So the Federation has this open heart and open eye and open ears to kind of make the best conclusions for the sport. So all the rules can be changed. Everything can be adapted to a better, more defined display of effectiveness.

That's a beautiful thing. When will this go into effect and when will your first event be? No, no. I'm not playing only in events. My idea is to service. So I'm going to service through the information. I'm going to service to giving reference and giving guidance for the events. But even though they don't do my rules, I will legitimize everybody.

And I will start to relate the records of every event, who won here, who won there. will start to relate the records of every event who won here who won there and i start to putting everybody to become part of the same profile the same mindset and i will hammer the idea of why we don't do the best rules for jiu-jitsu because i bet the champions today many of them they're gonna say oh i don't like i prefer to do this or that. But I'm not here to educate those champions. I'm here to educate 85% of the competitive community today who is still white and blue belt. Those guys, they're being misled to understand the strategy of the game to get the medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life. but they're losing effectiveness in real life.

So the change of rules, aside of the education aspect of the federation, is very important. How I see the service of the federation in the educational level. Because a lot of times guys coming from the competitive background, and they're from white to purple to brown and black. So they become tough competitors, sometimes champions. They become famous, then they open the school. And as they open the school, they teach what they know. Their techniques will make them field champions.

So great. But this is just like a percentage of what he's supposed to know to teach. Because not everybody wants to go there to compete. Not everybody has the skills and the like the instructor, he has to be knowledgeable about self-defense, about self-defense for women, about programs for kids, kids class, and law enforcement. So as the instructor becomes certified, I mean, I'm not going to validate all the instructors,

all the black belts today. I'm not going to say you don't deserve it, but I will suggest to them to get certified through the federation because they will get elements for their schools become more efficient, retain more students, have better teaching programs, which are the core of effectiveness. The other day, I heard some black belts being asked for a student about self-defense. Hey, teacher, you teach... He said, no, no, if you want to self-defense, you go to Grav Maga, you know? And I felt that this is just something which goes straight on my heart because for me, the core of Jiu-Jitsu is self-defense. If you don't know self-defense, basically you don't know Jiu-Jitsu.

You have to be ready to defend yourself from a slapping, from a hug, from a headlock, from whatever. And if you don't have those concepts lined up, you become sometimes very tough with tough ears, with very good grip, endurance forever. But you're still counting on your own physicality. You're still counting.

You cannot teach that for children or for women. So by having the Federation presenting those courses and spreading this all over the world, the teacher will have much more elements to have more students to feed the more knowledge to feed you know the his students in different levels and and make a different job with jiu-jitsu you know so so this is beautiful so your motivation is just to improve jiu-jitsu yes you see a bad direction that it's going jiu-jitsu is losing effectiveness and we have to restore that by informing very well, by understanding the competition as a progressive thing to make you a better fighter, not to make a better competitor.

You know? If you're a competitor, sometimes a taekwondo guy, he's a great competitor, but he has nothing to do with real life. I mean, you want to be a fighter. Jiu-Jitsu is something you learn to protect your honor, to protect your dignity, to represent, to fight, to make money in the cage. Whatever your goals are, Jiu-Jitsu is there to support you in a very profound and deep cause, which is effectiveness. The transition between Jiu-Jitsu and jiu-jitsu competition and mixed martial arts is a very tricky transition for a lot of jiu-jitsu fighters. Yes, especially when they don't have

that kind of strong background, you know. I think if everybody fights like Krohn, we don't have to set up rules because he wants to accelerate. He he wants to be progressive you know he's not wants to win by points he wants to go to the kill so a guys like him or buchesha or some other great athletes they go and they choose to fight openly you know to see some other fights they they choose strategy strategic elements to just give them more chances. Just points. Just points, just advantage. Sometimes a 10-minute fight, nothing happens, just two advantages.

That's terrible. I mean, I don't expect to see this in a fight, and nobody expects. So by changing rules, we increase effectiveness. We create a more dynamic fight. It's more interesting to see, you know. Nobody wants to see something boring. And we create, under this concept, the possibility to unify the whole community, not only this particular association or this federation, but everybody in the same part. And then, without taking anything from nobody, my vision is to create a worldwide circuit of jiu-jitsu,

which represents the same thing, the ASP for surf or the ATT for tennis, which brings major players, like big and and television for the sport so first is unified try to unify the rules try to create effectiveness try to give a better condition for the teacher for the school owner for the independent promoter because i cannot thinking about okay i'm gonna start to make my own circus and i don't validate nobody. It's just me like other people do. So that's a wrong way to unify and educate the community and our culture for the future. Krohn said publicly that he feels a part of the problem, the stalling problem, is the holding of the sleeves. Do you think, is there a possibility?

That's what I think too. I totally agree with him. I think the fact that you have to have your sleeve, you can't have your sleeve tight because then your opponent can't grab it. I think that is so backwards. I think that it should be illegal to grab the sleeve. Illegal. I think it should be illegal. I think it's possible to be illegal.

What is unacceptable is that grip promotes only a cool-off situation I can grab anywhere I want if my intention is to progress yeah if I start to say okay coming to me coming to Papa and I stay here waiting to waste your energy and then when you make a mistake I sweep you that's kind of weak weak in your mindset weak in your progressiveness, weak in your effectiveness. But what if he's stuck there? Like he has a sleeve and he's stuck because he's trying to pass. And if he lets go of the sleeve, then you're going to pass.

And you're kind of just stuck there. And you're like, I can't let go of the sleeve because… Let it go, man. Let it go and go for the risk. Don't you think that would cause problems with the ref and the ref's interpretation of what's stalling? No. Whatever is holding, if you're not moving, is stalling.

So you should have the hip movement and the angles and the quick fast on the knees, whatever you do, because if the guy don't make a complete pass, he's still like an almost no advantage. Yeah. So it's just keep going, man. Do you think it's less of an issue with no gi? The stalling? Yes, the stall install is less because in no-gi you can install in 50-50s and different things.

It will be easier. But you have much less elements to submit. I feel like the no-gi is just take maybe 70% of the submission options. Still some classic ones, but not that many. So I feel like it's just last options, but it's still exactly the same fight. When you did the Budo Challenge, we went to see that. It was a great, great event.

What has changed since your ideas when you put that on today? My ideas are the same. Budo Challenge is a great rule for a stream event, for a prime television event. It's not a sport competition event because it aims the submission and only pros competing. And it's like a premium sensational thing which has no time for stalling.

It's all pushing forward, so the whole pressure. I think it's almost that, but in the tournaments, it has to be a little more sportive. We have to have points, we have to have a time limit, which is according to the belt. But the idea, the concept, a progressive concept of going to the submission has to be embraced, I mean, has to be in the whole mindset for every fighter.

It doesn't change that the way you fight has to be Focused on the submit the guy to be the best the best one out there When is your first big tournament? Are you planning on having a big world? I want to have like in October the first event But I already have for example next week in the second and third the Vulcan Open, they will apply the new rules. And it's all testing. We're going to test the rules to see because the idea is

a positive, beneficial idea for the sport. And if we need to adjust a little more and change, like I said, nothing is on the stone yet. And we're going to allow the thing to you know, hearing people and seeing the conclusions because the mission is very positive and the means will be adaptable. That's a beautiful thing.

Yes. Yeah, it is a beautiful thing. I'm very happy. You've seen jujitsu progress from the time you were a boy to what it is today. I mean, it's got to be an amazing thing. today. I mean, it's got to be an amazing thing. An amazing thing also to have taken part in those first initial invasion moments when

you guys came and you, like, there's so many of the Gracie in Action videos where, you know, Horian is battling with the karate guys and, you know, you're battling with Jujutsu guys and people that had no idea what Jujutsu was. I remember very clearly when I saw the first

Ultimate Fighting Championship that I saw was number two. They had a videotape that was out, and I watched it, and I watched Hoist win. And I remember thinking to myself, man, I didn't even know that there was anything like this out there. I had no idea. I had been martial arts my whole life. I had no idea that someone could do something like this. I was doing karate, and, man, I watched UFC 2 first, because UFC 1, they didn't have any highlights to show.

Well, they didn't release it. Their idea was they were going to release 2 first, and then they were going to release 1 for some reason. No, but UFC 1 was, they did have pay-per-view for UFC 1. Yeah, but it wasn't available on VHS.

Yes, and then so, once I heard that UFC 1 was real, my friend said, hey, that, because I saw a preview for it, and I thought, oh, that's fake. That's like WWF that's not real so I ignored it and then my friend came home one day my roommate said hey that ultimate challenge thing it's real some

guy Guitar Center told me it was really said some some Iranian guy was just choking people out he would just grab him by the throat he said I ran the sumo wrestlers put his put his pit the tooth like in the audience and my friend the guy who told me didn't see it he heard it second hand so he said yeah some iranian apparently was grabbing people by the throat and choking everybody out i said some iranian i go did he didn't fight i was doing karate for six months i go it wasn't a karate guy was it he goes yeah he beat karate he beat boxers he beat i go by choking him out like this. He goes, yeah, that's what they told me. And I go.

So the second one came out. My friend called up because the ultimate challenge thing is coming out again. I go tape it, tape it. So I got home and I watched it. And man, I hated Hoyce Gracie in the opening round because I wanted the karate guy to win when he fought Minoki at Jihara. I'm like, that was my hero. I didn't even know who he was, but he did karate, and I thought, okay, he's my

hero. But on the other side was Pat Smith, and I didn't like him. And I didn't like Hoist either, but then by the time the finals came, I fell in love with Hoist. Like, go Hoist! By the time the finals hit, I was in love with him, and I go, I gotta find this. Because I wrestled in high school a couple years,

and I thought, either this is primitive wrestling, or it's super advanced wrestling. I didn't know what it was. So I went in. I found John Jock Machado. I went in there, and I got choked out 37 times by a purple belt by Dave Meyer. I remember Dave. And I remember thinking, one day I'm going to be able to do this with someone who just walked in.

I was so, from that point on i was obsessed with this is a like a changing life experience yes what was it like for you to be there to did not compete and knowing that you were better than your brother there's all this talk about why you didn't compete i mean i i come here to support horion and and the cause of being like spreading the art. And at one point I was Rodeon's soldier for whatever. And in another point, I decided to follow my own path. And of course, keeping the alliance, but going in my own direction. And then Rodeon called me and asked me to train Hoyes.

I didn't know why and then he said, oh, I'm planning to do some events. I said, okay, let's do it. So I was his coach for the first and second event. And then somebody asked me, through Eric Paulson and assistant of Daniel Santo, Yuri Nakamura. He was a Shoro guy. Shoro, yes. So he sent me an invitation to participate in a Shoro competition. So then they sent me a tape to see what the rules are about.

And I didn't like the rules, but I liked the locks. So I started training the locks. And I said, no, man, this is, I mean, there's no, I don't like it. So, and then we start to immediately say, I don't want to do. And then my ex-wife, much more calm, started to negotiate with the guys and started to say, but if we change the rules, so it was kind of talk and talk, and eventually they decided to change the rules for a new open rules, and then I advised the way it's supposed to be the rules, so we create the new

Valitudo 94. And then when I signed the, I mean, when I about to sign the contract, Horion called me and said, Hickson, what are you doing? I said, yeah, man, I've been invited to fight in Japan. He said, no, you should not go because this goes against the family.

UFC is our game. We should be in support of the family and stay here as Roy's coach. I said, man, that's not exactly what I envisioned for myself because, I mean, I'm here being coach. I get one penny. You put a lot of dollars in your pocket. You give me nothing I mean you give me some money for me to sit on the bench

We are in business, but if you give me nothing the guys offer me a lot of money to go You don't even have to give me what they offer. You just have to give me some said no No, you should do for the love of the first area man I love you guys, but you love me and you give me nothing. How am I going to love you? I mean, so I went to Japan and deal in my tank and start winning there. And then I get my direction towards Japan, which was very good for me. You know, the community there, the education, the culture there was very, I mean, I feel like home. the culture there was was very I mean I feel like home and that's pretty much where I direct myself my career my end of my career to Japan and but now Chrome is back to see what's gonna happen so were you worried at all with hoist doing

the UFC did you did you think because he was the youngest one of the brothers right he didn't compete as much in like were you worried at all that maybe it was yes but the idea the primary idea of hoising go in is because he was not the best one but he was something is going to be a good test for him is a good you know to break the ice and stuff but but not exactly if something happened is always a backup you were the backup yes so i was there to just jump in in case so if someone beat hoist you would have jumped into the oh immediately what about after the chemo incident yeah but that's after that yeah after that i was already engaged in japan i was already kind of yes you had a contract with them over there yeah not not

for many fights i never did many fights contract i mean many fights in one contract but i felt like uh hardion create a very awkward situation you know and uh and uh was a kind of little division you know so i was not appealing to go there and show my support to hoist and be there just so i allowed him to have his own destiny and there was also the talk that hoist was a slender guy who was younger he wasn't as intimidating as you and that it it sort of accentuated the idea of jiu-jitsu that jiu-jitsu was technique based whereas you're you're a scary guy you're a scary guy now but you were a really scary guy then you were the only you were the only yoked shredded gracie yeah you were a really scary guy then. You were the only yoked, shredded Gracie.

You were like 185, right? Something like that? Yeah, it depends. I start Zulu was like I have 74 kilos. What's that? 74 kilos or maybe 180. 180, okay. Maybe.

Maybe a little less. And then my last fight in Japan I did with Funaki. Yes, I was 195. Nice. Because he's like 220, right? Yeah. Funaki? Funaki is 230, 230 something.

And then, you know, I was making a preparation to go heavier than this, sometimes even 200. And then cut down to get my best shape when we spoke it was uh 2000 and when we had dinner was it 2005 or something like that somewhere around there yes you were still thinking about fighting yes fedor oh yeah the higher level guys yes yes but none of that ever materialized though never yes because um i never have the the after my my son departure on 2000 i was about to make the best contract of my life was i just finished with funaki and i received a proposal a millionaire proposal to fight sakuraba he was still on the top and then uh my son departure i have to have like a moment for the family and regroup as a whole.

By departure, your son passed away. He passed away, yeah. So it was a moment I could escape by doing a fight. Say, okay, I'm going to focus on the fight. But I felt like my family will be completely unprotected and unsupported. So I said, no, I don't care about the fight. So I spent about two years to make the whole family feel good again, and we all regained strength and happiness again.

So after that, I started to get a free agent for a couple of years. We tried to make something close to what I have, but the whole business itself in Japan, the fact that Sakuraba lost for Vanderlei and things like that, diminished that kind of huge purse. And then I felt like, no, I just want to fight if it's that much. So I started to be very resistant about my next fight, some opportunities, but I kind of pushed away. And to the point, in 2008, I was already moved back to Brazil for a while. A guy from Texas invited me to compete in a new event and pulled me to fight feather. And I was looking for that, but I had a little injury on my hip.

looking for that but I was have a little injury on my hip and until I I be able to feel good to training I could not sign and because he has a deadline in terms of promotion and such I could not sign without having 100 confidence because if I sign I will fight I'm not gonna and I feel I have the time I'm gonna get so I said you know what I don't have the time, I'm going to get. So I said, you know what? I don't want it. And in my heart, I went to the beach and said, thank you, God, for everything I have. I'm out. So I stopped competing. Not exactly the way I want, but I felt like I have to respect God's decision.

And I just don't want to just jeopardizing my life for the money you know for you okay the guy put me money I go there and so I feel like I have to go to represent your jiu-jitsu either I go 100% or you know I hope somebody else coming and I'll go see what crown does all the great fighters that you saw during that time from the time well hoce entered the UFC to the time that you retired, the guys like Mark Coleman and Bas Rutten and Fedor, was there any that you really wish that you could have had an opportunity to match up against? I always visualized myself against the number one.

You know, I could not even think about... So, one point it was Coleman. The other point was, you know, I mean, you name it, the champions. And then Fedor get a rise and makes like a big expression. So I could not think about other guy to represent Jiu-Jitsu. You know, I have always true vision that. But the set of rules are different. You you know at the time we could express technique with more because we had time you know i never somebody asked me oh yeah you have only a few fights in mma i said no i never fought mma i always fought valetudo because mma is a different animal you go there for three rounds five, it's better to have offensive techniques than defensive techniques.

The defense is not going to do good for you. It's going to do good if you have at least one round, 10 minutes, and then another. So if you have, like my fights are endless rounds of 15 minutes. It's endless rounds of five minutes. So in that way, you can prepare yourself for a different strategy. You know, you have to follow the movements. And you cannot just go all the way, empty your gas, and then fill up and empty again.

Because, you know, if you empty your gas in the wrong time, you're in trouble. So all the technique and stretching your gas and be calm and finding comfortable positions. Those are stripped right now. Now it becomes a very extreme, a very physical. You see athletes in the same way division, but a guy who fights in the 155 walks around with 180, 185. So the technology on the sport today is a huge thing, the physicality. That's why technique is only a piece of it. You know, what Krohn does today is not only training jiu-jitsu

and become comfortable in the skills. He's training like a dog in all the elements he can do to become athletic and explosive and physical and going to lose weight like everybody else. Plus the technique, which I feel at one point will be the edge he needs to make the difference. Do you think there's something missing in today's mixed martial arts that the original jiu-jitsu sort of expressed?

This idea of having an open round, having a no-limit fight. Is there room for that today, do you think? Or do you think we're hampered by this idea of a three-hour pay-per-view window or a two-hour television window? Yeah, it's funny because, you know, the other day I got caught watching a four-hour match in tennis. You know, it was a great match, it was long, and it's still going. Four hours? Oh man, you see. I have no idea they were that long. Are they that long? I have no idea either. You see, Diopovich and Nadal in the, I think, French Open last year. It was five hours. I don't even know what that is.

Five hours. Five hours nonstop, man. And they go to the tie break and start again. And the advantage was unbelievable. You know? So if you're passionate about tennis, sometimes the game can be like 45 minutes. Sometimes it can be a couple of hours because you're there in the action you know so for me when we're talking about engagement we're talking about

i mean the best one out there and when i see a fight after 15 minutes because somebody punch once or fall on top or just give him a throw both guys stand up they both desire and then the time is over who wants the fight in my opinion supposed to be a draw because how the guy can can win just because one more point the guys are warriors the guys are willing to go so it's always like halfway to what's supposed to be, you know, because, okay, you have to decide by points after, okay. So, I mean, it's hard because, you know, sometimes the guy even have the best of it. But that doesn't guarantee if the fight goes longer, if it's still that, because toughness, resilience, and heart, and technique, they all going to pay, in in one point, gonna pay a big situation,

you know? So for me, not the rules today and UFC and such doesn't translate the best guy out there. Translates the most agile, the most tough, the one who gets connected first, you know, because sometimes the fight can be either way. Whoever connects first, whoever makes the first can win. So it's kind of hard to evaluate. But if you put two guys in the cage and okay, man, whoever gets out first is the winner. So and that's a different animal because you have to be So, and that's a different animal because you have to be technical, you have to be patient, you have to be... So, you know, I can see, first is the expectation, is all in the how Krohn gonna do. But if confirms what I believe can be done, eventually, I feel like Krohn will be comfortable to challenge anyone for a no time limit fight because i mean i don't care if he's velasquez i don't care if he's john jones

if crone do what he has to do with the time he has to do i believe on him like i believe myself if i have the health today and the physicality i like to have, I mean, I don't see a guy just because he's winning on the cage, he can win me. Because I don't see the opportunities happen on the cage, I'm not going to give those opportunities. So it's hard to say, but, you know, the weight division doesn't make too much difference for me if I have the time to cook and slow burn. But if the thing's kind of, if even my weight division, 80 kilos, for example, if I'm going to fight a guy who has 95 kilos and make a technology, so I'm going to fight a different monster in five minutes rounds, it's almost impossible. I mean, so and then that's kind of unbalanced now based on the stream aspect of the sport, the physicality of the sport, and the technique who has to be applied.

So, the difference between a fight and a match, the difference between a fight and a sport. And in a fight, they're just two guys going at each other. And I agree that there's many, many, many fights where a guy win a 10-9 round, then another guy win the other 10-9 round, and then one guy won the final round, maybe 10-9. Just for a little throw or something. It's a draw. I agree. It's a draw. It's supposed to be.

It's not done. It's like sex without an orgasm. It's not complete. Yeah. And normally happens. I mean, sometimes beautiful knockouts, but sometimes, you know, it's just, you know, too much strength, too much physicality. And every time it goes to the floor, the guy immediately stand up because if he knows, if to stay on the ground, he's losing time and he's not going to be able to capitalize

because the time is not as long as enough. So that's kind of, you know, a gray area. It doesn't have the appeal for me to see a good match. What about when Hoyce fought Sakuraba and they had that crazy 90-minute match? Yes, what about? A good match. What about when Hoist fought Sakuraba and they had that crazy 90-minute match? Yes. What about? That was an idea of, like, having these long, long matches. For us in jiu-jitsu, we need time because we don't have, I mean, we give the advantage of weight.

We give advantage of, you know, whatever. So let's at least have the time for us to become strategical. Would you have preferred that kind of a fight to be no rounds though? Because that fight they broke up into a series of rounds. Yeah, I mean, at that point I felt like it was a lack of action of, I mean, Roy is supposed to fight better.

I was not on his side and I see a pattern on him to sometimes make little mistakes which when I was there I was focused on making him feel sharp and if I'm not there I felt like a little fuzzy attitude mentally his focus was not so it's a lot of different elements for to to to to to to justify you know because I believe hoist has elements to beat Sakuraba you know and

but he didn't so it's just he did the second time yeah the rematch yeah he found the second time in LA right was yeah yeah were you there when he fought him the second time no match no did you you know he beat him right yeah and the rematch we were aware of that right no I'm not oh okay. Yeah, the rematch. You were aware of that, right? No, I'm not. Oh, okay. Yeah, they had a rematch and he beat him here in LA.

It was K-1, right? It was K-1. It was at the Coliseum. Yeah, that was the first time Brock Lesnar fought, too. Yeah. Now, there's a lot of problems jiu-jitsu guys have, world-class mundial black belt champions have in MMA. guys have world-class mundial black belt champions have in mma is they get in the cage and it happens i would say it's a big reason why they end up getting cut from the ufc is they end up fighting wrestlers like everyone at the top 10 is really hard to take down the ufc yes so the jiu-jitsu guy will come in and he's fighting a guy who wrestled his whole life there's zero chance that

he's going to be able to take down that wrestler. So he's forced to kickbox, right? So the wrestler is forcing the kickboxing fight because the Jiu-Jitsu guy can't take down the wrestler. In those situations, like I don't know if you remember Noguera when he fought Tim Sylvia, the big giant guy. He could not take Tim Sylvia down. So he eventually shot Tim Sylvia, sprawled a little bit, and then Noguera pulled guard. He was on his back. He swept him.

He got on top, and then he choked him out with a guillotine. So in that situation, the guard pull saved Noguera. What do you think about guard point? I'm 100% confident in the guard because what I see today in the display of great jiu-jitsu fighters in the cage is they have the guard, but they have a supportive guard. They don't have a valetudo guard. Yes. They're not dangerous from the bottom. Yes. So they become technicals from the bottom against the dangerous ground and pound. Yeah. So they get all that,

they're getting all that disadvantage. So in my perspective, for example, Krohn, he's been training to deal with tough wrestlers, tough boxers, but he don't try to apply

wrestling against wrestling because he's going to need another life to become like a Schultz or like Matt Hughes or like some other tough what is the strategy for Krohn when he fights a wrestler that he can't take down he brings to the guard so he's the cigar pulling us something that he's thinking about guard he's no other option on the ground jiu-jitsu has to be happy on top and happier on the bottom yes people frown upon.

I'm a big advocate of pulling guard in MMA. There are fighters that have done it. There's a guy named Paul Sass from England. He pulls guard all the time. He's a master of pulling guard. He knows exactly how to do it. He shoots deep. The guy sprawls.

And as he's sprawling, he pulls guard. And he puts people in triangles. He's awesome. Nine triangle victories in a row. Yeah. But the triangle is risky because once you know how to defend, like arm lock, you're becoming available for ground and pound. So if the guy is completely safe on the, not getting caught in the triangle, your attempts of techniques are

kind of diminishing your capacity to survive and to defend yourself. So you're attacking techniques from the bottom, but you're still on the reach. Yes. So the idea of a perfect valetudo guard is save your distance to don't get pounded by those surprising elbows like John Jones. So stay clinch, overhook, and clinch the head. No, no, you cannot clinch. You have to use the legs, and you have to hit with the legs. So it's always striking from the bottom and you have to hit with the legs so it's always a striking from the bottom you know

doesn't have to be so you don't believe that you should be clenched and only if the guy if the guy promotes that if he wants the space to hit you you need to be comfortable and hit him back so it's a fight where imagine a 12 year old kid laying down on the ground with feet to you. If he starts using the foot, it's going to be hard for even you as a big man to reach. Yeah. So, there's no use of the legs. People have no clue how to strike and how to use. I know in UFC has some illegal heel from the bottom. Yeah.

But you still can use different strikes. You can even have the distance to survive and to be completely protected against elbows and such. The issue, though, that is someone can disengage. If you're on your back and you're trying to not clinch and not hold on to him, you're a jiu-jitsu practitioner, the guy can just disengage. You have to stand up. Once he's disengaged, he's escaping from the fight. I can stand up again and keep the same process of clinching. So now, Krohn's in a situation where he's fighting a wrestler, and he can't take him down.

Then he pulls guard. Yes. And then he opens up his legs to kick. The guy stands up. Now he's got to stand up again. Yes. So they could just keep doing that over and over again. And if it's a wrestler, like Chuck Liddell, who's an expert striker

as well as a wrestler, very tough to take down, but also an expert striker. When you get that guy to the ground, don't you want to optimize that opportunity as much as possible

and hang on to him while you're on the bottom? That depends. Depends where the weight division, where the weight distribution is. I have to obey the sense. If he's on me, I will sweep him,

I will be on his back in no time if he's away from me if he wants to looking for distance i have to understand that and respect that and protect myself to don't get pounded you know and and that process of okay i don't want to engage he's moving back and then you stand up and all this process a lot of things happen. What is important for a jiu-jitsu fighter is know everything about the anti-game of the striker. I don't make Krohn, I don't try to make Krohn a good striker. I want to make him comfortable to in and out. I want to make very comfortable to fight inside with knees and elbows, you know, be dangerous inside, be comfortable on top, and be very comfortable on the bottom.

And the action, man, because it's a lot of, even though in those five minutes fight, it's a lot of action. I mean, it's a lot of stalling, it's a lot of studying, it's a lot of disengage. I mean, they engage a little bit and then they separate. And okay, now let's think, let's see who's fighting. It's hard to see a guy who just goes like... And I feel like the great element, the great strategy of Krohn is going to keep a consistent pressure.

That means he's not going to be studying or in a distance where the striker feels like waiting. He's going to be either too out or too in. And then once he's in, let's fight in fight. Let's fight like, you know, elbows, whatever. And then immediately the fight goes to the ground. No matter if it's on top or on the bottom. And then the consistency of this, I feel like opportunities will rise do you watch

mma a lot today yes yes did you watch bj penn's last fight yes that that fight was very sad to me very sad to watch um and i was very frustrated watching it as a bj penn fan as a frankie edgar fan i thought it was a great performance but what one of the things that frustrates me about BJ is that he very rarely attacks from his back. When he's on the bottom, he puts feet on the hips and he just kind of holds on. Yes, maybe he was not exactly... I don't know. I mean, he did a poor game from the bottom, in my perspective. He's supposed to have a little more elements to not preserve his

integrity but also to attack you know and I don't feel that and I feel like I mean he's just not doing what he's supposed to do. Eddie we talked about that that sort of frustrated you a little bit too right? Yes I don't know if you're aware of this Hickson but I obsessed with, I've been obsessed with developing the best guard for when they're striking. I analyze it to death. And the guard that I comprise, they put elements from, you know, my students helped me. Nino Shembri helped me. So I put all these elements together.

But it all started off when I was on this quest to put together the ultimate guard for MMA because I was seeing too many guys just get beat up in the guard. And I thought, I felt like you, the effectiveness has gone. What is the problem? Why are people getting pounded in the guard? We have to change this. So the first thing I studied was you and Henzo. This was back in the 90s. I go, okay, I'm going to attempt to improve the guard in MMA. So I looked at you and I looked at Henzo and I go, what are they doing? They're in full guard and they're holding the overhook to prevent the punch. Like anybody try to punch in the guard with their right arm, you would overhook it.

And when headbutts were legal, your left hand was like this. You were like this protecting the headbutt. But then when they made headbutts legal, you don't have to do this no more. So you could hold the head now. And now in this position with the overhook, you have full guard. You're holding the head. There's a clinch there. So to me, as trying to be a jiu-jitsu scientist, I'm like, if that is the stance in MMA, that's it.

You and Henzo, that's what you guys are doing. You look at all the old fights, full guard, stop the punch, hold the head. And so to me, that was the starting point. Yes, I agree. But Jiu-Jitsu is an animal who has never stopped to grow. Yes. And one day I was comfortably in California watching a fight in Brazil and then I saw like a eight-man tournament where Fabio Gurgel was fighting Mark Kerr and Mark Kerr was the first time he'd show up in the first time I saw him fighting. That was

his first tournament? Yes, yes. So and he went to the finals with Fabio and I knew Fabio, I trained with him, he's a brother. And I saw what he did with Fabio, like stay on top, ground and pound and smashing the elbow on his face, after Fabio's tooth got into his arm and the next day he was all inflamed arm and he would go into the airplane like this, he may almost lose the arm because then they give him an anti-barrier. We never, but anyway, after I saw that fight and the lack of options, Fabio was there. Next day in the morning, I wake up, I call my son, Hoxton. He's 10 to 11 years old, about 110 pounds.

I said, Hoxton, come here. And then I went to the garage on my mats. I said, lay down. Put him lay down. And I tried to represent the same position because the size weight is almost the same from Fabio Gurgel to Marquer than me for Roxxon. So I kind of immediately put him in Fabio's position. And I put myself in Marquer's position. and then I start to analyze his position say Hoxton do this do that move a little more this way so it was not we're not a fighting but I try to find him a position for him to be comfortable and I spend about 45 50 minutes searching studying with him because I like that kind of unproportional size.

When I finish that section, I reinvent myself in terms of what I'm going to do if I have to fight Marquette tomorrow. Because I was satisfied with the angles I could put Hawks on in order to resist my leverage, my angles, what exactly I saw in the day before. So that means from one day to another, I kind of focused myself and fixed the problem I saw with Fabio. And at that point, I felt like, OK, I'm fixed now. I'm ready to fight Fabio Rujel tomorrow. What is this stance? What did you change?

A little more. I could not have him. Hoxton could not have me in control. He has to create distance. He has to. How? Shin across the belly? No, he has to use the feet more properly.

Feet on the hips? Yes. He has to use the feet more properly. Feet on the hips? Yes. He has to use the knee on the chest sometimes. He has to use the element of, as I approach to getting better position, the bottom guy has to hit because if you don't strike, you don't make the guy kind of go back. So it's a combination between fighting. In Brazil, we have two different names when you brawl and when you fight fight is more like a sportive and when you brawl you like just do it whatever

so technically speaking when somebody wants to attack me as a brawler, I don't want to fight, brawl back. I want to be technical and survive and be comfortable. And soon he starts to say, I cannot have anything here. Let me be technical to see if I can advance. And that's the time I will brawl against him and make him get confused. So I have to change strategies as he comes. If he comes to be a fighter, I will be aggressive, I will be mean. If he comes to be a brawler, I will be a fighter I will be aggressive I will be mean if he coming to be a brawler I will be technical and I will be comfortable so that kind of sense of change gives a perspective for the the bottom guy to be

on edge which will be on top of the the offense now Mark Kerr in that fight that you're talking about Fabio Giselle headbutts were legal so that was a huge part of how he was getting busted up with headbutts butelle, headbutts were legal. So that was a huge part of how he was getting busted up with headbutts. But since then, headbutts have become illegal. Were the headbutts a big reason you decided to change your guard stance? Also, but the elbows and the reach and the way the guy positioned himself, you know, and the way Fabio was always with the leg crossed. He was following exactly what he learned and what he saw and he he could not have the time to improvise nobody expect

marquer being tough as he was it's so big the monster just happened in front of fabio and he has to deal with whatever he did you know he was crying and throwing up in the locker room before that fight yeah he's he was always a little emotional. Yeah, very nervous. And, I mean, shows and a little documentary he did, he always had a little imbalance. But, I mean, at one point, he's a potential. He was the man to be beating. He was like, he was enormous.

Yes. And, you know, as a fan, as a fan of jiu-jitsu and a fan of mixed martial arts and valetudo, man, I just wish you had had those opportunities to face those guys. I would have loved to have seen that. Me too. Now, like I said, when I was trying to figure out the best MMA guard, I was looking at you. I was looking at Hickson, grabbing the overhook. But the one thing I knew is if that's the defensive posture, this is what I was thinking.

I didn't know you changed it up. But at that point point I thought that was it. That's the defensive posture. Someone was in your guard. You have to defend first. So I thought, well, okay, that has to be the stance. So we have to create offense from that stance. So the defense is first. And do we have offense from the overhook? And my instructor, Jean-Jacques Machado, he is one of the only guys I know of, out of all the top jiu-jitsu guys, that his whole game is based on the overhook and not grabbing the sleeves because his left hand, he was born without fingers. So no matter what, whether it was gi or no gi, he needed that overhook because he couldn't control the sleeves. So his overhook game was translated to his students, me included. So I was always looking for the overhook because Jean-Jacques was my master. And then when he got invited to Abu Dhabi, before he went to Abu Dhabi,

there was a lot of legends there, a lot of jiu-jitsu legends that were going to Abu Dhabi. And without the gi, there was no offense. There was a lot of boring matches. Abu Dhabi, and without the Gi, there was no offense. There was a lot of boring matches, but Jean-Jacques shows up, and he just rises above everybody. If you watch what Jean-Jacques did in Abu Dhabi, he didn't change his left arm, didn't change without a Gi. He's like, no Gi, I'm still going to grab that overhook anyways. Everybody else was lost because they were used to their fighting stance.

Their guard fighting stance was sleeve, collar, collar, sleeve. So without the Gi, they had to change everything, and they weren't used to it they didn't have any offense from there so to me i took what you and henzo were doing with the overhook and the controlling but that's how jean-jacques fights with the overhook so all his sweeps jean-jacques just look at all the sweeps in abu dhabi he's throwing people around he his first year he submitted everybody he was like the first Marcelo Garcia. Everybody was freaked out. Like, how is this guy doing it?

They didn't even understand it. But to me, it was like, it was because his game didn't change. When he's training in the Gi, he's training for Abu Dhabi. The people that were training in the Gi before, they weren't training for Abu Dhabi. He was because it was all overhooked. He was sweeping wrestlers, Carl Uno. He was all over these guys. So for me, that overhook, for Jean-Jacques, that overhook is important for grappling, not even for Valetudo.

So if he did Valetudo or someone with that style guard did Valetudo, the overhook game automatically takes away the punch. And he has offense from that style too so for me that became the the the basis and the focus for the ultimate mma guard was to master the overhook like like jean-jacques and not only just defend but put those butterflies in and try to sweep or set up triangles like you you have an overhook you sweep he bases you grab that wrist boom triangle so i thought that was the, based on what you and Henzo did and Jean-Jacques style, because of, it was like a blessing in disguise, him born without fingers. It was a blessing in disguise. He's an Abu Dhabi legend.

Everybody looks at Jean-Jacques as Yoda. Like, how did you come into Abu Dhabi and finish everybody? To me, it was just that overhook game. He didn't really have to change much of his game. So that's how Marcelo Garcia, that's his philosophy too. His philosophy is, and he said this in interviews, that if you can't do it, if you're training, if there's a gi technique that you can't do no gi, throw it out. Only focus on the techniques that are going to translate to no gi. So that way, when you're practicing the gi, you're actually practicing no-gi as well. So Marcelo is very against being reliant too much on the collar and too much on the sleeve. He stays away from that because even takedowns, he doesn't want to do judo takedowns because no-gi, they're not going to work as much.

He wants to do takedowns in the gi that translate not going to work as much he wants to do takedowns that in the gi that translate no gi so um that was that's just uh this the conclusions that i came to that's how i train my fighters that are fighting in mma and it all started with watching you and henzo yes i i completely you know feel like that's a good standard position to because you have to have a control and stuff but the evolutionary process brought other kinds of guards you know and uh i kind of also uh find my my comfort about those days and and and show and a more spacey guard more like towards my father's guard was because he was a very weak guy, always handled big guys, and he don't have this kind of strength or control over his opponents.

So he was more like hip movements and using the ankles, using the foot. You know, it's more like a very lethal from the bottom, allowing the guy to get lost. So it's a combination between the two. I think it's two days is the perfect option. Why do you think Ronda Rousey is the only fighter in MMA today that when she's pulling off, her arm bar looks amazing. Have you seen her? Yeah, of course. It's why, as soon as she's in the guard,

as soon as she's not going to wait, she's going to go and attack that arm. And she goes right to it. She doesn't wait. And I've trained with her many times. And her arm bar is legit. It's not a joke. To me, I think she has the best arm bar in MMA today. No one has pulled it off as much as she has.

And, yes, she hasn't really gone against top-level jiu-jitsu girls. But based on me training with her, I think that she can tap out. off as much as she hasn't. Yes, she hasn't really gone against top level jujitsu girls, but based on me training with her, I think that she can tap out. It's going to be harder, of course, but why do you think she's the only one? And there's all these black belts in jujitsu in MMA and they don't look anything like Ronda Rousey. Why is that? She's a special girl. She's very competitive. She's a very talented person. But aside of this, she has a heavy training in judo, which defines her character, defines her desire to train hard, to compete. So being an Olympic-level judo player is being a wrestler in that level. That brings you to a different level. It's not being just an athlete.

She's a super athlete. She's very defined and very much specialized in one thing. Her game is always going towards the same pattern. And the opponents she's facing, he's not exactly prepared for that. I feel like nobody has the skills on the ground to fight her.

And nobody has the heavy hands in the situation Ninguém tem habilidades no chão para lutar contra ela. Ninguém tem as mãos pesadas para lutar contra ela. Então, tudo está bem, mas quando vai para o chão, quando o oponente pega a primeira batalha e cai sem ver nada, fica perdido. E então, seus movimentos são muito, muito eficazes e nós vamos capitalizar nisso. get lost and then she her movements are very very effective and and and we'll capitalize on that but you know um maybe five fights ten fights more beautiful wins but eventually she's gonna have a person who has uh the same elements and then she's gonna start to have competition you know because

so far feels like even too easy you know it's like not even a competition for she's gonna start to have competition you know because so far feels like even too easy you know it's like not even a competition she's like a Mike Tyson she's yeah when Mike Tyson was just how do you see how do you eventually cyborg Rhonda's gonna happen Dana's gonna make sure that happens eventually how do you see that going oh that's a good interesting because, you know, she will have the preparation, the mindset, the heavy hands, and also the skill to become like a competitor for Honda, I think. You know, it's unpredictable. Like, you know, any fight, you know, it's hard to say. If you had to put your money down, who would you? There's no reason for me to put my

money in other person then Honda I mean yeah I was in a good I mean I was getting better too that's your last fight yeah she's throwing combinations with the judo throws and her throws are just out of control best judo in in MMA. Yeah. Best judo in MMA. She's throwing people. Yeah. And Misha, when she fought Misha, Misha is a legit wrestler. Misha can wrestle.

She was making some big mistakes, though. She was very high up on her, her weight was above the hips. I mean, I think there was a lot of pressure involved in that fight. She made a lot of mistakes. You would think that when you, in MMA, generally,

when someone starts doing something that's effective that wasn't done before, like the front snap kick that Travis Brown is doing now, Cerrone's doing it all the time. Nobody was throwing that. We need to see it first work in the UFC and go, oh man the front snap kick or the rear leg

snap kick to the chest, that's working now. So that's huge now. Five years ago, no one threw it. They thought it was a waste of time. It doesn't work. That only works in the movies. That's working now. So that's huge now. Five years ago, no one threw it. They thought it was a waste of time. It doesn't work. That only works in the movies. But there's all these kicks, head kicks. And now that we've seen Rhonda show the effectiveness of focusing and drilling that arm bar over and over again. She talks about, do you think people aren't paying attention to it and aren't going, look what works.

Look what happens with the arm bar when you do it 100,000 times. Let's do that. Do you think they're not doing it because she's a girl? No one's paying attention? You think it's easy? I mean, her performance reflects a life. Even her parents are involved in judo. Yeah.

So it's a lifetime of achievements. It's a subconscious reflex. It's not something which you educate people. You don't think you could learn it if you practiced hard enough? You have to be at least in a classification phase to go to the top ten in judo. It's not just learn. It's dedicate yourself, your sweat and tears and blood.

It's intensity. To get there, you know. It's like being a jiu-jitsu champion is one thing. Doing what Kron does today is another thing. He is not only fighting hard, but he goes and trains hard and runs hard and lift weights whatever he does he does with the compromise to excel and that's a mindset it's not exactly you teach it's something i believe honda is a special girl because she put herself in that kind of level of stress and she handle and

she i mean the training is hard the focus is hard she's serious and, the training is hard, the focus is hard, she's serious. And the whole formula is there to support her victories. It's not a flake or it's not a luck or it's not, oh, you learn, come here, let me show you how to defend the arm lock and now you go, you're ready to fight. It's not like that, you know. So anyone in the mixed martial arts coming from a background, So anyone in the mixed martial arts coming from a background, because they see mixed martial arts as a good exposure, as a good situation to make money. So they come in with an average background to try their best.

They sometimes have it from the wrestling family and then learning some box, some jiu-jitsu, some defense and go. They come in from the judo and go they coming from the the jiu-jitsu and go and learning a little bit here and there but very few are like uh like uh Randy Couture which is already established champion like Coleman, you know, guys who have defined their lives in one thing, and then they breathe to another. But they have already the sense of, you know, they believe in themselves. They can capitalize on the mistakes. They forward forever.

So those things, you know, you don't buy on the supermarket. You know, those things is lifetime experience. And it's hard to... Yeah, the intensity that Ronda Rousey brings to training, just to life itself, is very difficult to replicate. And that it has, it resonates throughout everything she does. Yes. She's crazy.

Yeah. Now, when... In the best way. When Krohn went against Shinya Aoki, I'm assuming that you studied a lot of Shinya Aoki tapes. against Shinya Aoki, I'm assuming that you studied a lot of Shinya Aoki tapes. Do you, I personally think he's one of the best at jiu-jitsu in MMA as far as, he's gotten so many submissions, he'll get you with leg locks, he has a great rear naked choke, his guard's really good. Yes.

Were you impressed by watching tape of Shinya? Shinya is not only impressed by tapes. The first Budo challenge I did, he win with honors. He win the Budo challenge in submitting everybody. He won your event? Yeah, the Budo challenge has different weight divisions. In his weight division, he make two fights and submit both. And who were the guys? Do you remember?

Carl, he fought two guys. Well, I didn't even really know who he was in 2005, to tell you the truth. And you already knew. Yeah. So anyway, I felt how tight, how tight, how precision his submission. He got a flying army lock in the first guy and the foot lock in the second guy. So I felt like he's very versatile. and the first guy and the foot lock and the second guy. So I felt like he's very versatile. He has a highlight reel in judo

where he would do flying arm bars in judo just one after another. And that was something I absorbed. And then in our training with Krone, I said, and we kinda decide to, because he was very comfortable when you engage on the grip. So from your grip, he can go for a flying triangle, flying arm locks and such.

So Krohn was pressing him without an engage, using the foot and trying to make him feel like he has to engage, not Krohn grabbing. So that's kind of give the first way for him to feel like lost. He was expecting Krohn to attempt, but Krohn was pressing without grabbing. If you see the fight again, you see. So at one point, they engage, Krohn pull to the guard, and he was kind of trying to stay, and Krohn go to the head once, he can escape then chrome finish with the headlock as when they roll but the guy is very tough we are not worried about the jujitsu back and forth like the attempts him

to submit chrome those are hard to catch because chrome is very skilled to defend very good is he good at defending leg locks chrome yes yes but uh still uh the opportunity was raised based on his desire to act. So we forced him to act. He gave what we want and cronk catch precisely and sharp and it was over. Every morning, well, every time I work out and go to the gym, I warm up on the Stairmaster and I just go ADCC, Marcelo Garcia or whoever. And I just, I just want to warm up and watch people do jujitsu at a high level. And that just gets my blood boiling. I just want to go lift weights. Right. So I'm watching Marcelo and Crone and man recently, and I'm watching the last one. Yeah. And I haven't watched it in a while, but man, I'm so used marcello just going through everybody

marcello just crushes he is unbelievable what he does people go to his gym he's like hey you can come to my gym i'll roll with you but we're gonna videotape it and we're gonna put it on the internet deal and they're like everyone that goes there's like oh man here like they're walking into the the slaughterhouse right he puts on everyone's gonna see the role so that's and he's he just crushes everybody big dudes and then for him when when he went against crone he passed crone's guard for a couple seconds but then after that initial he it was a double leg drag and he jumped then Krohn's ability to recover full guard is unlike anybody I've ever seen.

You rarely see full guard in Abu Dhabi. People stay away from full guard, but Krohn will force Marcelo Garcia and Krohn into full guard. Marcelo was having a hard time, and then he finally broke open his full guard, then he tried to pass again, and then he's back in full guard again.

And then Krohn put him in a guillotine and the word is that and marcelo i think admits this yeah he went he went out like he went out he said oh was tough you know i almost passed out and then but chrome he because was going in the end of the mat, the first, like, the round, he was trying to save himself for the next round. So he put pressure, and then he kind of said, Dad, I kind of just try to hold instead, keep him putting all my power. So, and then, I mean, nothing happened, and the guy kind of survived, and he kind of won. He won on a takedown.

So he could have put him to sleep there. That's possible. That's always the thing with the guillotine, knowing whether or not to exert all your energy. And if you do, you gas your arms out. But Krohn specializes in the guillotine. I mean, he's coming for the last Abu Dhabi, prepared to face Marcelo again.

And he's escalating his progress is being very very you know progressive and and he was ready but unfortunately Marcelo didn't didn't come and he made great fights and he displayed like especially the guillotine against Antonio Otavio what's great in the final the guy just, when he jumps, and I feel like you guys talking about this fight and about the chicken and stuff. I didn't believe it at first. I didn't believe it.

I'm like, someone said it. Well, explain it to people who didn't hear our other podcast. Well, Krohn, in 2013 Abu Dhabi, Krohn showed up and did what only, I think maybe Jean-Jacques did it, Marcelo did it, and I think maybe Haja Gracie did it. I'm not sure. He went in and submitted all four of his opponents. He submitted Gary Tonin in an amazing match.

Best fight I saw in the year. Yeah, it was incredible. I was losing my mind watching that one. And he submitted JT Torres, who's's a beast jt torres so good and he got him from the guard he got he just had the overhook and he just flipped his leg over his face and just held on to the over so it was kind of like one of those overhook arm bars and and then he beat uh who did he beat first i don't know but the first one was like uh i'm not sure his name but he put a guy to sleep and then gets this Gary guy in the first day.

Yeah, and then JT Torres. And the second day, JT and then Otavio. And then Otavio in the finals, well, the match we're talking about, and me and Joe talked about this, and Stuart Cooper made a film on it, but Otavio Souza, his strategy was to not be on his back,

stay on top, and just kind of maybe get a takedown late. You know, because that rule format or that points format in Abu Dhabi, that happens a lot. People will just wrestle and wrestle and wrestle. And he wasn't engaging. And Krohn is like, just like Hickson's saying, he's like Marcelo. He goes after it. He's going to go 100%. All he wants like Marcelo. He's like he goes after it. He's gonna go 100% All he wants is the submission that's cronies a special grappler special fighter

all he wants is the submission and Otavio wasn't really engaging and as a father. No, no, no not as a fire as a coach. I saw his coach as the fight progress Eu vi o treinador dele, enquanto o combate progressava, o cara dizendo para o Otávio em Português Ok cara, é isso, é tudo que você quer, ok, continua, é perfeito, perfeito, perfeito. E eu vi um cara só correndo do combate e fazendo uma estratégia que me assustou completamente. Não tem nada perfeito nisso, no meu sentido, mas no aspecto estratégico dele. on that in my sense and but in this strategic aspect of his is doing so I have to counter in somehow and then I start to make to try to suggest the referee he was escaping he was trying to avoid the fight because it's not

positive points in the first 10 minutes but it's negative points so I was hoping for a negative point with all this stalling. So then I started to say, hey, really? The guy started moving like, you know, he don't want to engage. He's just moving back like a chicken. And as the thing started boiling, I started to say, hey, man, this guy is like a chicken. And the whole stadium is just quiet watching the fight. It's just this noise kind of overwhelming everything.

It's like throwing a chicken inside. And for a jiu-jitsu competitor, first of all, I mean, I know you're right here, but I just have to be honest. Everybody says you're the greatest ever. You're the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time. So you're here, the greatest jiu-jitsu representative of all time. Your son is competing. This guy has to respect you and admire you. And you're going, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk.

And the whole crowd is listening to this. I mean, that's a lot of pressure on that guy. That had to get into his head. Yeah, because I was suggesting the referee, he needs to be punished. Yeah. And eventually, like with 90 minutes or so he get minus points and that's what's exactly what generates him to say okay now i'm running behind so i have to make it happen and as we're talking afterwards with crone crone said dad when i start

to talking like a chicken i felt like he won explode. I don't want to make a mistake wasting the opportunity, but I know he will come in, so I was just ready for it. So we kind of working together, you know, like... It was a father and son work. It was perfect. He shot right in

and then he's already waiting before it's over. Go home. Let's eat ice cream. That's the one thing Jean-Jacques would tell me because train for... Jean-Jacques obviously

trained me for Metamorris and we were talking about Krohn and Jean-Jacques would tell me because Jean-Jacques obviously trained me for Metamorris, and we would talk about Krohn, and Jean-Jacques said, I asked Jean-Jacques, what is Krohn's best technique? He goes, man, that guillotine. He wraps his arms around your head. He's got an incredible squeeze. The guillotine used to be a strongman move. I used to think even the arm and guillotine like that's a strong

man i never got into guillotines but over the last 10 15 years they've gotten so technical man i tell you i tell you um i'm always being trying to specialize myself in all the submissions and i have my guillotine which you know give me some victories but you know and then one day one time i was talking with cronin it was not even on the on the mat was in the locker room and then i said yeah but get your team cronin you have the guy can escape said no that doesn't escape i said no escape i said no he said no if i get it said oh come on man grab me man i tap you and then i have to rethink my whole strategy said yeah this guy have you know he's has already something to tell me

there's just levels of squeeze it's a level of grip the way you hold it's all technical and the regular escape doesn't work anymore so of course we have escape for Crohn's guillotine

but it's different than I was visualizing. So I have to relearn how to escape from average guillotines and Crohn's guillotine. So it has to be special, the defense. Those levels, the technical levels, are lost on a lot of people that are just watching it. The difference is subtle variations. That is the essence of jiu-jitsu, right?

I believe the biggest aspect of jiu-jitsu yes i believe the beast the biggest aspect of jiu-jitsu is invisible my i pray i mean i my my my i preach the invisible jiu-jitsu because is invisible because you see it but you don't see it you see the same guard position you see the same mount but you have to feel it you know i i base my jiu-jitsu on how you feel, not what you see. And that's totally different. When I go in seminars and stuff, the guys feel different. They say, wow, man, I've been doing this all my life and I never felt this way. So good.

Okay. So much leverage. So based on the weight distribution, based on the sense of leverage, all this can change. The same position you see in a picture cannot be worth it or can be very much effective depending on the grip, the angle, the elbow, the weight. So it's amazing how the invisible jiu-jitsu is what really supports the, you know, it's not what you learn superficially.

What do you think about Marcelo Garcia's variation of the guillotine? Some people call it a high elbow guillotine, and a lot of people call it the Marcelo team, where he doesn't believe like this. Yeah. Is that part of something that you've taught, or is that new to you? No, it's not new.

It's an option. What's developed by him, like he's the master on this not so you see different submissions from the break yeah so it's adaptations you know if you focus and you know what's coming and you have defenses i don't believe a guillotine is effective regardless no yeah all the guillotines you can defend, but you have to be precise. If you make one mistake, if you're thinking about defense one and the guy coming with a little twist, the defense one is not going to work and if you think about change for the second, you're already tapping or you're already slipping. Yes.

So you have to be precise on the adaptation of each. So now if Kron gets me, I know exactly where I have to go. If I delay two seconds, then it's going to be... It's over. Yeah, it's over. And that goes for any technique. There's so many different ways to squeeze a neck. I would, off the top of my head, including all the Armin chokes,

like the Darce and the Japanese necktie, the Armin guillotine, the different grips, all these different neck cranks. There's got to be just those... Those inverse ones like how you call the neck breaks from like the one the twister. Yes, yes. That was not really a choke though. That's just straight neck crank. Yeah. But there's so many ways just no gi. There's so many ways to put someone to sleep. I would say there's 15 to 20 different ways. No gi to squeeze the neck. Everyone's got their own different styles.

Did you get into, because one of the most popular chokes over the last 10, 15 years in the no gi grappling scene is the darts. Are you familiar with? What is the darts? Like bravo choke? It's the bravo choke. It's a squeeze, but it's the arms in. From the back? No, no, from top side.

Oh, from the... Yes. Like a... I'm in half guard. Like in half guard and you come in. It's like you have an overhook and you come in and you squeeze that one. That's become just one of the most basic standard chokes. And it came sort of from a wrestling three-quarter Nelson technique that was used to flip people over.

And then I think it was Dave Terrell showed it to Joe Darcy. And then Mark Lehman started calling it Joe Darce because he learned it from Joe Darce. But he actually, I don't know, John Dana heard. There's a whole story, but the name stuck to Darce. Was that something that you guys were doing back in the 70s and 80s? That's more of a newer choke, right? Yeah, it's more newer. Fascinating.

The origins of the triangle, like just the leg triangle, there's so many different theories on how that got injected into helio style. Do you know the origins of a triangle or is it just an old judo technique no i i mean if you go in an old book techniques you're gonna see all the submissions you know like uh the application of triangles in my life starts coming by by by understanding the concept and seeing like longer guys like like Macarão, guys with long legs, like... Macarão? Who is that? Márcio. Márcio Macarão is like...

Old school guy? Old school. I saw guys doing this and I started to apply, you know, I started to use... My legs are not too long, so I have to pick the perfect positions to do, but I started to get, you know, familiar with. And, I mean, it's just, you know know it's hard to say where i come from but it's i have i have my my open mind like

the the eric paulson situation with the the new i always have a open mind to accept to to embrace things are functional you know and discard everything which I don't like. You know, it's not about theory. It's not about, it's about effectiveness. It's about results. It's about feel comfortable out there. So anything I see, no matter if it's from Bruce Lee or from any wrestler or a catch-catch gun, or if I see and I like it, I'm going to go and experiment immediately because I just add to my arsenal.

You know, that's the concept which leads to to development to to to progression and to success it's one of the beautiful things about jiu-jitsu is that it's constantly growing evolving there's always new techniques the idea that you know the darts choke wasn't around when you were competing and now it's a staple a mainstay yes it's fascinating I have to bring this up because if I didn't bring this up, everybody online would go crazy. Right. There's a videotape

of when Yoji Anjo showed up at your dojo. Yes. And you, you know... You saw it? No. I saw you? No, I've never seen it.

No, you didn't... Let's make the next barbecue in my house. Definitely you're going to see it. Let's plan it. The world wants to see it. Yeah, the world wants to see it. Will you release it to the world? Probably oh no you gotta release it that's one

of the number one things that people are when i hit a couple of million people on my site i may do that we'll do it for free on the side i'll make that happen i will make that happen how tell us that story how did that story come about oh just when i finished the valley to the 95 uh was a legit eight-man tournament and i won um it started the uh like the wwf and like the ufo in japan was very strong with pro wrestling pro wrestling like big magazines like a huge japanese love pro wrestling. So, and then based on that kind of exposure of this new event, the champion of the wrestling association,

one of the champions of the UFO, Kota Kada, started to talk, you know, I like to fight Hick. They asked him and they started to talk, like all the pro wrestlers talk, I'm going to kick his ass, this and that, started to talk, a lot of gossip. And at this point, i'm back to la maybe after two or three months of this kind of

talking around my name forever some guy some some one of the friends i have in japan they come and said mr grace they talking a lot about you and you should have official answer for that you know you cannot just let because people start thinking you afraid people so you have to have official answer so I said okay so I make a letter stating I was never will fight on their ring because they not legit they fix fights so that's against my if they if you wanna come and fight in my event, not mine, but the event I fought in the Japan Open, he is welcome to come and we want to face each other for sure. In other cases, we can fight even on the street.

But I'm not there to fight in his event because that would depredate my real fight status, my real fighter status. status, a real fighter status. So, with this being said, maybe a few weeks later, Takada went out of the gossip, and then Angel showed up in the magazine,

he started saying, he will come into LA to beat me up, he will do this because he said, oh, he's going to fight for free, so I'm going to dare to fight. So, and then Kai comes in and Mr. Angel says he's coming, he said this. I said, oh, he's going to fight for free, so I'm going to dare to fight to kick. So, and then guy come and say, hey, Mr. Angel say he's coming, he said this. I said, man, I cannot lost my sleep

based on just speculations, you know. He said when I come, no, he didn't say. Okay, so I'm going to keep my life. And if he show up, okay, he show up. So, past maybe couple of weeks or so, even more, one day I was in home in the morning. My assistant at the school called me and said, Hickson, some guys here, some Japanese guys are here waiting for you,

want to talk to you. And immediately I figured out could be that situation. So, I put my camera in my hand. Hoxton wants to come in with me. He was about 11 years old. I was going back, driving my car, taping my hands because I know it wouldn't be a... So I was putting tape in my hands as I drive in the freeway. When I arrived, I saw a van full up with photographers outside you know like I'm passing

through my parking lot and I saw a camera full of Japanese with cameras full of reporters inside so I coming went through when I get in the school I saw a huge like a tall Japanese guy very well dressed and a lady and I immediately immediately, hey, how are you? Oh, Mr. Gracie, I'm the president of the UFO Association. I come here to officially invite you to participate in a fight in Japan. I said, man, are you crazy? I told you I don't want to fight in Japan and under your association. And then once I kind of deflected the direction, I said, yeah,

but you also said you fight for free for your honor. I said, yes. I'm here to fight. I expect fighting, but you also said you fight for free for your owner and i said yes i'm here to fight i expect fighting but you come into negotiation no no but the fighter is outside can you can he come he said yes he can come so i tell my student to say hey you stay on the door let the lady with the fighter come in but don't let the reporters come in. Block everybody outside. I didn't know what's going to happen. I don't want to press. So as Angel come in with like an ugly face and attitude and stuff, I immediately asked my instructor, said, Limão, grab the waiver and tell him to sign. It's like if I get hurt, whatever, those waivers. So he looked the waiver with an ugly face and then spoke with his guy in Japanese. And then the Japanese guy said,

Mr. Gracie, you mean if he don't sign, you don't fight? Immediately I felt like if I say, yeah, he has to sign, they may leave and they're gonna come in with all the excuse oh he chicken out whatever I immediately said no forget the paper if you come into fight let's fight forget the bureaucracy let's let's make something here more simple so and then he's he coming to the mat to ring, you know, and we start to fighting. Immediately, I felt his intention to hit me. Immediately, I clinched, put him on the ground, and started to punch. He turned back.

But different than a normal event where just put him to sleep or whatever. In that particular case, I have to display, showcase his punishment. So I was not happy just to put him to sleep. So I start to hit him with the elbow, expect him to turn. Eventually he turned, and I punched him in the face until broke his nose and make all bleed, all cut up. And at that point, I felt like i felt like he was just smash enough he turned again backwards and i put him to sleep and then i let him sleeping on his

own blood and then i said to the the press said okay now let them in so when the press come in saw him passing out waking up with the guy trying to hide his face from the pictures. And the guy is all dizzy, waking up, all blood, you know, a big, big mass of blood on the floor and stuff. And the crowd, my students kind of lift me up. I kind of, my T-shirt is all bloody and I kind of hang on the wall like a trophy and stuff. And we all yelling. So the guy stood up and left. And then like three or four days later,

Andrew come back to me, and at my school I was teaching, he coming with a package and said, oh, I like to talk. He was still like all bruised and stuff. Said, yeah, I like to apologize, and I like to give you this as a gift. And he give me a samurai helmetised and stuff said yeah i like to apologize and i like to give you this as a gift and he gave me a samurai helmet and uh and then he left to japan and when he got there

he said to the crowd he was jump you know i was jumped the guys jumped me out because the press didn't saw and then i get my my assistant my Japanese guy who's working with me and the valetudo 95 and I said listen Yuri you take this tape you go to Japan make a press conference display don't make one copy nothing make sure no no so go there make show the press and come back and bring this back okay so he went make the press conference and then my reputation when they saw was like a free a fair fight and what happened my reputation went to this to the roof and uh you know it's just a big step for me and the like in the publicity because i capitalize on all the wrestling publicity which which is national in Japan.

So then my next fight eventually was with Takada. He accepted the fight and made an official fight, and then we created the Pride. I helped in the formulation of the rules. A lot of folks don't know that. You were a big part of the original Pride. Yeah, they asked me if I want to fight Takada, and for that they want to create a new event.

I said, yes, I fight him. And then we discussed numbers, and in want to create a new event. I said yes, I fight him and then we discuss numbers and in order to make a good rule, I help in the rules because you know I introduce the gloves and the mixed martial arts and the first body said we have to put gloves because without gloves it can be

too bloody. We have to cut head butts and stuff so I make like a draw of the backbone of what could be. And then from that, they start the pride. I fought the pride one, the pride four, and then the pride becomes like huge in Japan. And then because they have a little involvement with the Yakuza, the sponsors,

they have Fuji TV like pull it off and they're getting problems to the payroll, which is huge. They have maybe 50 top athletes making a lot of money, so they could not handle it. And then UFC come and take over and get all the footage and the fighters

and bring it to the next level. They took a huge bath because UFC paid $65 million for Pride, and all the contracts were fake. Yeah. They were all void. They were invalid, rather. None of them were legal.

So I didn't know that. Yeah. So UFC had the worst of it. They had way the worst of it. They tried to sue Japan, or they tried to sue the organization. It's kind of funny. This is how crafty they were. While the UFC purchased Pride, the people that were running Pride were starting another organization while they were working for the UFC.

So they were working for the UFC, running the Pride offices for the UFC in Japan, but then they were running their own organization. Oh, fleeting interests without no disregard of everything. This is a Japanese style. There's a classic match, or not match fight that got that's on video it might be on youtube with you and hugo duarte yeah on the beach where you guys are fighting what um is that on youtube oh yeah yeah parts of it it's hard to see the whole thing it's a famous fight no famous fight on the beach you know who was holding the the camera that day who was high in my cousin with 12 years old and hoxson was seven jean-jacques was there there's jean-jacques running yeah so

what was what was the reasoning behind that fight how did that go down okay let's make this the last day all right guys because if not you're gonna talk forever here about things from the past i'd'd love to talk about the present. But anyway, it was a great time because at this point, Marco Rua was just finishing fight Fernando Pinduca in an event. After my second fight of Zulu in Rio, this jiu-jitsu community has a little friction with the Luta Livre community.

So they set up a fight between, was Marcelo Bering against Fabio Molina, Renan against Eugenio Tadeu, and then Pinduca against Marco Rua. And they draw. And after that draw, Marco Rua creates a good status of being a great fighter, as it is. He's a good, you know, tough guy.

And the gossip starts to become like, oh, and then people may ask him, what about Hickson? So in the kind of small world is a position where Marco Rui was willing to fight me. And I also, of course, willing to fight him, but I don't want to wait or give him the reputation where I challenge him. It's not the case. He was just the first. I was already famous, established. He was already coming up, like, just make a good fight. So to make things more simple, my father, myself, Marcelo and Sergio, my best friend, we went to his school in the nighttime.

He had maybe 50 guys training, all without gear. They're all tough. They all have a lot of pumping a lot of iron so they all big guys you know so i went to his place said who is i like to talk to you so he coming to me i said hey man i heard you you you you showing desire to fight me so i like to fight you anytime you want regardless let's do it if you want to do now you can do tomorrow whatever and he looked at me and said yeah but it's not like that if you challenge me i may accept but i have i need four months to train i said man you crazy you think like i i use other names but i it's like you think the lakers

will challenge a college basketball team from from from Cucamonga right fuck man what are you talking about you come here to challenge I'm not I come here to because I heard you planning to fight and if you fight I'm here you want to fight or not so when this conversation start to become a little my dad coming as a mediator and said hey guys don't don't want to discuss let's make a list if somebody wants to fight hicks let's make a list and then eventually you guys can can fight and then hugo from the back yeah you can put my name on that list and i first time i saw hugo in my life and i look at him and said yeah man you tell, you tell me. This is not a, because it has a game, a gambling in Brazil, like a popular game,

not official, but an unofficial game called Jogo do Bicho, means game of the animals. You put a name, a number, like 24 is the deer. So a guy put $1 and if he wins, he gets maybe $50, something very popular. In every corner has this kind of underground game. And I said to him, this is not a game of animals, man. This is just a serious business. You don't have to put your name in the list. If you want to fight, let's fight right now.

And the guy kind of got me a little confused. So nothing happened. And then we decided to leave. So we left. After that, the whole gospel, every corner, I heard Hugo was training to fight you. Hugo, Hugo, Hugo, Hugo. Start talking about Hugo, Hugo, Hugo, Hugo.

And I felt like this has to have an end, you know. Another guy I could not challenge officially because he's a nobody. But he's a guy if I just disregard, he's something who's going to be against me too because I know he has the potential. He's a guy if I just disregard is something who gonna be against me too because I know he has the potential he's a fighter he just don't have the name but he's a legit and tough guy so based on

that I could not just ignore and I could not challenge him officially so I have to do something in between which fight him on the street so we decide to find a final okay let's make a profile where he goes what beach he go where he walks about so we decide he goes in that this beach was a very popular beach and in

Rio every Sunday every Saturday Sunday he's there with the okay so next Sunday we're gonna be there Saturday so I was at this point separate from my my relationship i was living like a single in rio and that's very hard to do because a lot of options so we've so i was not concerned about the fight at all i was no sleep on the monday Tuesday, like just going party a lot. Wake up on Wednesday kind of afternoon, walk on the street close to my neighborhood. And then I saw a friend of mine who's always in the gossip said, hey. And as I leaving home, I said, I think I'm going to postpone Hugo's fight for the following week. I don't think it's going to be a good idea because, man, I'm just too much party.

When I get on the street, man, the first guy I saw was my friend Bauru, who's just coming. He said, man, you should see. Everybody's prepared. Everybody's talking about the fight will be great. They're all waiting. They all will be there. And I say, oh my God,

no postponement anymore. I have to go regardless. So as I approach the weekend, I try to just recover, sleep, eat well, but still like not enough. Anyway, Saturday

morning, we all gathering in the Gracie Barra Academy, which is close to the neighborhood. And we're gathering like the students because we have to have a team to be there, you know, to hold and whatever. So it's about 50 to 60 guys there, and we're all kind of strategizing. Okay, you guys make this and that. And then my son was seven years old, all pumping up.

And then at one point, everybody quiet. He's just jumping in the middle and said, yeah. And if his son will be there, I'm going to kick his ass. I said, good. And everybody left. So he's already with the DNA of battle. So it was funny. And then eventually about 10 o'clock or so he arrived on the beach the guy

the messenger comes hey they are there so so he went to the beach and as we approach the beach i have the camera nobody wants to hold the camera no no no not me so i give the camera to hyan which 12 years old at the time and he could not get through to film the fight. The filming was not even important. So we engaged. At the moment, the first engage after I slapped him, we engaged very quickly and then we started to hassle on the sand, he fell on top of me. I was kind of having a hard time from the beginning and then I was able to sweep, mount it. And he escaped from the mount one more time because the sand gave me no base.

So I kind of messed my knee on the sand. So he came up. I had to sweep him again, mount it again. At that time, much more concerned of keeping the position. So I grabbed his hand like from the back. And I started punching him. Like a FUNAKI. Yeah, exactly like FUNAKI. I started to punching him, punching elbow,

punch, punch, punch, punch. And then at one point I was dead, dead tired. I asked him, you want to give up? He said, you have to kill me. I said, okay, man. Keep punching, punching, punching. And then immediately afterwards he said, okay, stop, stop, stop.

So I immediately stopped. We went to the water, dive on the water, come back. As we come back, he said, yeah, I'm not happy. I said, okay, let's do it again. He said, no, no, not today. And I said, okay, man, that's okay. And then Renzo started fighting Marcelo Mendes at the beach. They started getting, then it doesn't have the hands.

He just kind of messes it up a little bit. Hands confront with the guy, but it was not an end fight. Anyway, I put stitches on my hand and back like all swallowed. My hands all swallowed. So I went back home, training, resting, giving my life.

One week later, you know, I was in a friend of mine's apartment, you know, resting tired from some little fun. I was laid down, you know, in my underwear, my hair, I have long hair at the time, but all messy. A guy, my student of mine, the on the on the street on the bike and said hickson hickson they invited the school he's invading it's a big invasion i said i kind of wake up and run down and when he saw me running in underwears you go like that i said hey man i jump in the bike let's go so i went to the to my school in your underwear in my underwear with the hair all crazy. This needs to be animated, by the way, right? It will be.

And as I approached the school, because they're coming from a different neighborhood walking, and one of the guys, like Eugênio Tadeu, was a black guy who lives in a ghetto. As they approach, they come walking walk maybe three or four miles, you know, something like that, a different neighborhood. They're coming like from the street, let's break it up. So as they come in, like it's not only fighters,

there's bad guys, guys with like all the eyes, I mean only the uncovered eyes, with guns, with knives, with bottle break. So it's a lot of convulsions a lot of energy bad energy not coming from a real fight situation but it's more like a street dangerous so as i approach and i coming through the the crowd which is already controlling maybe two thirds of the street which passing cars just could not passing cars anymore it's just like just the car passing a very fine line it's a big crowd in front of the school so i went through with the bike when i coming up to the school he's already coming down with my father the nelson which

his instructor other guys they coming down and we we kind of crush each other in the in the middle of the stairs i said okay man let's go down let's talk so we each other in the middle of the stairs. I said, okay, man, let's go down, let's talk. So we went down to the parking lot and like crowded, maybe 20 guys from my school. One guy has a weapon, but the other guys maybe five or six, 10 guns and knife. I mean, it's a bad, bad weather, you know? So before I start the fight, I said, Hugo, I'd like to talk to you. Come over. Let's talk. Let's walk to the backyard here.

So my father, myself, the news on Hoyler and Eugenio Tadeu, we kind of move away from the crowd to like a backyard. And I said, man, I want to talk to you something very important listen I fought to you last week as a man and I come here and I respect you as a fighter to challenge me to rematch so all this is cool regardless who win who lost but if somebody

touch the fight before the fight is over because you bring here a lot of people without no martial arts code so if somebody touch the fight before it's over over because you bring here a lot of people without no martial arts code. So if somebody touches the fight before it's over, I guarantee you, man, you wake up on the ditch. And he said, no, no, it's a man-to-man.

It's a honor thing. So, okay, let's go back. Let's talk Finnish bullshit. So we went back to the crowd. They make an arena like people make a circle and was on the concrete and i felt when we start i felt like his mentor or whatever should supposed to say to him hey man the first fight last week you engage too quickly you give the grappling you should punch him in the

so i felt a completely different animal because he was already trying to, by his approach, his position, the way he moves, I felt like he wants to punch me. Different than what was before. And I kind of make myself like a variable. I kind of play dummy, you know. I play kind of statue. And he come and punch me right there. I deflected very quick. Grab him around the

waist like high make a little hip movement and put him horizontal and throw him on the concrete so he fell flat on the concrete i tried to mount he escaped i move like to the other side and mount again and i end up by mounting on him, like with 15, maybe 20 seconds. I just mounted on him, I punched, he covered up, and I could not punch anymore, so I get his every tank and bang his head against the concrete a few times. You know, pow, pow, he kind of banged the head on the floor, and then he softened up a little bit, I gave him a couple of punches, he kind of quit immediately. Stop, stop, stop.

For me, it was not exactly the well-done job because it was just too quick, and he quit very quickly. So I want to do something else, but the crowd was already trying to, it's too much. I said, if I insist here after his ask for mercy, can jeopardize the whole thing. So even though I was not happy, I stood up and he stood up and he said,

yeah, man, I'm happy. I'm satisfied now. You really the man. Shake your hands. He said, yeah, man, you have a very valuable guy too. Very strong. Keep training.

You can be good. So we kind of end up our differences. Yes. So once we out of that, Hoyler start to fight Eugênio Tadeu. our differences. Yes. So once we out of that, Hoyler start to fight the Eugenio Tadeu in the same, because they already having a little,

so they start to fighting. At that point, the police come in, a guy with a gun machine, just because nobody would listen to the police, nothing. So he kind of make a shooting the roof. The bullets come up and bringing some ricochet down and somebody get hit. And then he come, he's very small guy with a cigarette.

He said, I want to see who's the tough guy now. So he's a very small guy with a gun machine. So everybody like quiet. So and then I talk with Daniel, said, hey, man, the fight is just start here. If Hoyer has to go next week, we're set up something that's not end yet said yeah let's so we we set up for a different day when then is over for me and we kind of end up with a respectful honorable way and that's pretty much it that's a great story no more old stories that's it because

those all night we can go forever here man What's wrong with that Some guys You know this is the biggest response Ever on Twitter For a guest Like I don't know about your Twitter But my Twitter

People are going nuts That you're doing the podcast People are losing their minds And they've been going nuts Ever since the Yoji Anjo tape They're screaming Please release the tape Please release the tape please release the tape will

you release it yeah let's do that okay oh but let's go yeah let's keep the the the couple million people in the site okay we'll do our best to get as many people on the site so what were you sending people what's the site what's the address jjgf.com jujitsu global fedF.com. JiuJitsuGlobalFederation.com. So just the initial, JJGF.com. It's all set up right now. Beautiful. So I wanted to ask you something about what's going on today in MMA. There's like Nick Diaz and there's been a bunch of guys that have been suspended and fined for having cannabis in their system. And there's big controversy because in a lot of states, now it's 23 states in the United States where it's legal now so how do you feel

about banning cannabis as a performance enhancer do you think I mean what do you think about man I think you know we are I mean since the beginning of the times drugs are always involved with us not not just drugs for party drugs. But we're talking about painkillers, we're talking about coffee, we're talking about alcohol, we're talking about, I mean, teas and herbs. So we all are accustomed to use medicines and drugs to enhance, to diminish, to calm. So this is there. I think that kind of judgment goes from person to person.

Some people can have a little bit of some drug and get a reaction which can make him crazy or can make him addicted. So the chemical in the brain can respond differently yes for some people cannabis is a medicine as they play for the others can be a stimulant or can be a uh below i mean lower your self-esteem becomes bipolar if you smoke you can be i mean i mean you don't know yeah it makes you more of what you are, kind of, right? It's hard to say what is. So at that point, I feel like we have to obey the law, you know. And if some kind of drugs are forbidden by law for you to become a pro athlete, you have to obey that if you're in that career.

What you do in your life, you know, it has to be respected, it has to be, you know, whatever. But what's the rules for MMA? I mean, I try to input in the jiu-jitsu the anti-doppings, you know, because you see guys in the same way division, but one guy has 10 times more endurance, 10 times more power, 10 times whatever. So the guy, you know, has addictive, like he has an extra enhancement. So we have to balance this in order to make a fair sport.

How much the cannabis affects the athlete, I'm not sure. But I know others like steroids or hormones, those are proving. like steroids or hormones, those are proving. So whatever is being proved against use of cannabis for fighting, for sports activities, if it's proved this kind of support of, I mean, the drug use can be enhancing something, maybe we cut. I don't know. It's up to the doctors. The real problem is they're testing people for something that stays in your body for a long time after it's psychoactive.

So if you took cannabis like a week before your fight, you're not going to be high when you're fighting, but it's still going to be in your system. So you're still going to be penalized for something that has nothing to do with it. But what's the reason? What's the reason why they took it? Yeah, because you can have caffeine in your blood. You can have like another kind of... Why the cannabis has to be... Because I don't think it's an enhancement of performance.

I think it's only control your emotion, give you some kind of feeling of happiness. Sometimes it gives you like a little laziness. You know, I don't think that will help you as an athlete. I think if you get if you get high before event you're gonna lose your sharpness you're gonna so i don't think that's will support so i don't see why they they have to bother in legalizing or forbidding or i don't know maybe it's just because of the law just because it's illegal and the reason why it's

illegal has nothing to do with whether or not it's safe or dangerous it does nothing it's all political at this point so but they did lower it right now it used to be that if you if you uh if you were in colorado let's say where it's totally legal it's it's not illegal there anybody can smoke in colorado you could buy it you could buy it in vending machines you have to stop a month before your fight because it's it's still going to show up in the test and you could lose the fight the fight to no contest you get fined so now they're kind of changing it and adapting now I guess according to the numbers I think you can go you have to stop two weeks before a fight or something like that so maybe eventually depending of the card they have to

change the fight for colorado yeah so or the training camp being in colorado so everything there is legal but they're they're uh they're definitely uh how do you say relaxing the rules or you wouldn't say that though what are they what's the word they made it from it used to be 50 nanograms per milliliter to 150 so it changed quite a bit 300 increase so you have to have 300 more marijuana in your system well there's that's a step in the right direction i think now um as far as performance enhancing surfing is a serious sport that requires serious technique, lots of hours. And generally you, you, you hear that surfers will be under the influence of cannabis while they're surfing. Um, it wouldn't it, if it, if it makes your reflexes, some people believe that it makes it's a dulls your reflexes how can surfers be

under the influence of cannabis and ride a 25-foot wave no the the the wish the ocean is is an animal you know is alive is in movement it can be dangerous has this kind of you have to have the perfect, I mean, you have to have the path mapping, the way out, the way in. So it's a lot of strategy, it's a lot of technique, and it's also, it's a lot of harmony between you as a surfer and the ocean. So you have to find yourself comfortable. You have to find yourself spiritually connected to the force.

And sometimes some of the guys, my friends, who kind of normally smoke some, they feel peaceful and they get in the harmony. It's not about strenuous physical. Only if you get caught in the bad situation against the bad ripcord, you have to swim like a dog. You're a good surfer. You've surfed your whole life, right? Yeah, I surfed my whole life. What's the biggest wave you've ever surfed?

30 feet? No, man, no. I'm about 12 feet. Okay. Solid. It's dangerous. Long board, short board? Short board.

Okay. I'm a short boarder, yes. And Krohn surfs too? Krohn surfs. But he's just, he's more passionate about Jiu-Jitsu than surfing. How often do you surf still? Oh, depends as well. I have to check surf line today.

Oh, really? So you might surf every day? Yeah. Wow. You love it that much, huh? Oh yeah, man. What is it about surfing? It's about, for me, it's about the water, the ocean. Because I believe in energy.

I believe in the ocean being the most, the hugest electromagnetic pole on Earth. All the electricity coming from. So, as I go in the ocean, if I'm stressed, I get energy. If I'm, you know, lazy, I get energy. If I'm too tense, I get relaxed. So it's an equalizer for me because I feel like the contact with the ocean keeps me in balance, keeps me. So for me, it's not about the perfect wave.

It's about going to the ocean, my routine make my exercise breathing you know i'm a tropical rat i'm born and raised in rio so i cannot stay away from the water it's just the you know somehow the energy flow and how spiritually that's kind of have empowered me in a sense and that you would say that physically surfing does translate to jiu-jitsu as far as the balance, right? Because you need incredible balance? Not really. I think it is. Of course, you stimulate your neuromuscular activity in surfing and skate and jiu-jitsu.

But I think the most important thing in surfing is as you become under pressure you have to strategize you have to be in control of your emotions you have to be focused and and everything do right and if things go wrong you have to be find your comfortable zone in hell and that's the mindset is similar because the ocean is not your enemy but he's there to do his thing and he's very powerful so you have to find your your mental your mindset to find comfortable in all this turmoil you know it's all you know it's if you get caught in the wrong position and if you get panic he's gone so you have to be calm same Same thing than fight. You have to have the focus, the strategy. And even when things with the problem rises, you have to be in control. What do you do with your time these days?

What's a typical day for Hicks and Gracie? Right now, I'm back to teach in Krohn's place because I wanted to have him more distressed with how the academy goes. So I pick two times a week to teach there, giving self-defense classes. At this point, before that, I was doing seminars once a month, at the most once, twice every couple of months to make my living. And also because I feel like the best things in life, money cannot buy. And I feel like the quality of my meals, the way I eat, the way my relationship, my sleep,

those are very, very valuable assets, you know, plus the time i have to do things i love to do that's kind of when this is feel like when i feel like i'm everything so i feel like i'm happy enough to be my best at service because i always try to be at service helping somebody with jujitsu with knowledge with nutrition with breathing you know it's not about the price it's about the the service you know and then i put my head in the in the said yeah i may have a nice day i make a good nutrition, with breathing. You know, it's not about the price. It's about the service. You know, and then I put my head in the... Yeah, I have a nice day. I make a good speech with Joe Hogan. I have a nice talk with Ed Bravo.

It was a great day. So somehow, in the purpose for the federation, so I always try to be positive, but I have no schedule fixed, like I have to wake up, go to work. No, because at this point, I create a lifestyle which makes me feel good to engage in different elements like this federation now and having classes on Crohn's

and be here, to be full of energy, you know, because sometimes you don't notice, but based on your commitments, your obligation, you're becoming more like a robot and you lose the perspective of what you need to be at your best. And if you lose that perspective, even though you're still doing your routine, sometimes you're just minus, you're just 80, 70, 60% of what you should be. So you're not going to be the best husband. You're not going to be the best father, the best employer, the best employee.

You just, you know, it's just. So at this point, I feel like I have to be at my best physically. If I feel like I have to stretch, I'm going to stretch, breathe, joke, have fun, listen, party, whatever. And then when I feel like, man, I'm so happy I could not eat. So then I can go and do my service. Because the window of life is smaller. Now for me it becomes I don't have too much time. So I don't waste time to do what people expect from me.

I try to do things that are really relevant to my soul. Like this federation now, when I dream, I don't dream small. I dream like I make a very space for a huge, the biggest dream I can dream. And I see that level of need for the community and the level of position I have to be the reference for that shift in the direction of our culture and our knowledge, I feel like I could not be more motivated, more happy to engage on this. And that's always life is about. It's just do your best and be excited to be motivated to the next day. There's such a refreshing attitude, your attitude, your philosophy on life. Because I think it's very easy, and I've trapped myself in it sometimes, where you concentrate too much on making money, concentrate too much on being ambitious,

and you forget the quality of life. Your focus is almost entirely on your quality of life. Yes. You know, because like I said, man, how much cost your motivation? How much cost your friends? How much cost your health? How much cost your intelligence?

Those things is priceless. I mean, if you take those off your life, if you take your motivation off your life, it can be Bill Gates, can be the biggest. So if you ask me if I want to have Bill Gates' life, I don't know, I don't know him. So it's not based on his bank account. It's based on how happy he is, how horny he is,

how motivated he is to wake up and do his thing. He don't look too horny. I don't think he's horny at all. he used to wake up and do his thing. He don't look too horny. I don't think he's horny at all. So that's a very essential thing which sometimes slips through people's fingers and the priorities and the daily, you know,

and the payments. So I put you in a role where I feel like if you tell me in the past, what's the courage, what's the opposite of courage, I want to say cowardness. Because either you're tough enough to challenge and to fight or then you're a coward and you chicken out. So that in the past was like the opposite of courage. It's very hard to measure this in those days. And I believe the opposite of courage today is conformity. You know, as people get conformed,

oh, I don't like my wife the way I used to like, but I'm never going to divorce because I'm afraid to lose my house or the situation is so established. So I'm going to keep, so I don't like this job, but I'm going to keep here because it's better than his. So in other hands, if you get caught on that kind of compromise to maintain because you're afraid to risk,

that's keep you like one step behind from follow your heart, follow your ambition. If you're 18 years old, you don't think twice. The guy say, hey, let's go to Australia. You think, okay, let's go, boom.

But when you're 50, you say, Australia, what are you going to do there? Maybe I'm going to, so it's old, you don't think twice. The guy say, hey, let's go to Australia. You think, okay, let's go, boom. But when you're 50, you say, Australia? What are you going to do there? Maybe I'm going to... So it's different, you know? That's me. Am I getting paid or what? Where are we going? Yeah, so that's kind of pretty much where keep you from be at your best.

Because if you're willing to sacrifice, if you're willing to broke new challenges, if you're willing to you're in a stage of liveness and excitement and unpredictability who make you feel like you're in heaven. Every time I was engaging in a compromise or a fight was something I thank you, like I have my routines prior to fight one of them is at the day of my fight I wake up and I thank you God to be alive

and I acknowledge how perfect will be that day if I die today say fuck it was going to be a perfect day if I die because I have you know I accomplished my thing I'm in my mission I represent in my family so I don't go there to tap I go there to die the guy had to kill me I'm in my mission. I'm representing my family. So I don't go there to tap.

I go there to die. The guy had to kill me. I'm never going to tap. But that's not a sport-like orientation. This is a philosophical honor representation. It's not something I teach. No, you should not tap. No, it's not like that.

It's about how I feel, how I feed my kids, how I follow my tradition. So in engagement, I'm not going to be the one who's going to quit. The guy has to kill me. My brother, he can throw the towel. But for me, it's unacceptable. You know, I give up from my life. So based on that kind of spiritual guidance, my life is very intense. My life is very, I mean, directed to accomplish. Give up is not an option, you know. I can direct my focus. I can give up from something to go somewhere else. But I never will give up from something because I feel like I cannot reach there.

I may say, okay, that's not for me. I go somewhere else. like I cannot reach there. I may say, okay, that's not for me. I go somewhere else. But if I still focus, I will take those falls, I will take those obstacles as a motivation to just set up

a new strategy to try again. You know, I'm very competitive in a sense. I like the perfection of things. So this is like a situation where I put you in a situation where you have no, either you go forward or you don't. But don't stay in the middle.

Don't say just waiting for people or waiting for more. Those are kind of things kind of stuck you back in life and just make you feel like passing through life as you know you're irrelevant. You know, it's very weak. That's a beautiful way to end this thank you very much brother I really really appreciate it it was fantastic let's make this some time again and talking about more things

anytime we can do this forever I'm sure and anything we can do to help your association I'm 100% committed to making the state of Jiu Jitsu better you know improving on what is going on that's what I'm all about. JJGF.com.

So we are true on that, and definitely you're going to be invited for the Development Council. Thank you very much. My pleasure, brother. So go there, JJGF.com. Enjoy it. Hicks and Gracie, thank you very much, sir.

Thank you, bro. Thank you to our sponsors. Thanks to Squarespace.com. Go to Squarespace.com, use the code word Joe, and save 10% off your first purchase. Thanks also to Onnit.com. Go to O-N-N-I-T.

Use the code word Rogan and save 10% off any and all supplements. We will be back in a little while with Bert Kreischer. Much love, my friends.