The Joe Rogan Experience - #707 - Michael Dowd

Episode Date: October 13, 2015

Michael Dowd is a former NYPD officer and current ethics consultant. "The Seven Five" is a critically acclaimed documentary made about his time as an officer, and is available for download at - www.themikedowd.com

All right, here we go. Boom, there we go. So, first of all, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for doing this, appreciate it. Thanks for having me, John. Your fucking documentary, that might have been one of the craziest documentaries I've ever seen in my life. The 7-5, if people haven't seen it.

Dude, what a fucking crazy life you lived. Jesus Christ. Do you feel lucky to be alive? You're embarrassed? I'm embarrassed because I'm looking at people that are supposed to respect law enforcement and it's almost glorifying some of the crazy shit we did. I don't think it's glorifying. I hope not.

No, it's definitely not. I don't think it's glorifying. I hope not. No, it's definitely not. I don't think it is. I think it's an honest portrayal of people going off the rails because they didn't have, I mean, you had the ability to do so. I mean, that's what it was. Debauchery, right? I mean, it's just untamed and just the ability to get away with things that no one else could.

Well, I think we're seeing today with law enforcement, with all the stuff that's going on with all these kids getting shot and all these videos that get taped of police abuse, we're seeing that for the longest time, this stuff just wasn't filmed, that there was a lot going on. I mean, we've all witnessed, I'm sure you more than anybody, but we've all witnessed some cops that were out of control. And I think that's just what happens when people have power and you just kind of, they get a little crazy.

They, you know, when you don't have anybody checking that power and then on top of it in your situation, there was cocaine and there was crime and there was all sorts of craziness i mean i learned about your documentary from nick dipalo he was on my buddy ari shafir show and he was raving about this documentary and it wasn't even out yet it was you had to pre-order it on itunes right i fucking hate that when you want to watch something i think i feel people calling me like in the middle of the night. Where is this documentary? I can't get it. I'm like, let me call the people at all three media.

They don't give a fuck. They're just like, oh, we're sleeping right now. We're on California time. I said, okay. Oh, they're not awake yet. Whatever. It's just ruinous. Did Nick see a pre-screening or something like that?

Did he see it in the movies? I hate to say this on the air, but I think he pirated it. How dare he? That's illegal. I think he did. That's illegal. Because he had heard about it from somebody

and he couldn't get it. Right. And I was like kicking the ground saying, you know, who's promoting this goddamn thing? You know, it's about my life and people asking me a lot of questions about it. And I'm like, why don't you just go see the documentary?

Well, after like a week of trying to get it, they throw their hands in the air, and they're like, we can't get it. So I had a lot of frustration over the way it was distributed. But I wasn't involved in it, so. In that part. I white-knuckled my way through that whole thing. It was intense. I didn't shut that off once. I'm going to tell you and your audience how.

I mean, I'm a nut. I love adrenaline shit, but I really can't sit through most things and uh when the movie was um premiered the first time it was seen ever by myself as well I sat by the door thinking that one I'm gonna be bored or two I'm not gonna like the the content in the movie and just leave the theater and uh and my family and some friends were there you know not everybody but you know select people showed and uh i sat by the door and like in a minute and a half i just turned around the seat and didn't fucking move and it's hard for me to do i mean you'll see throughout this throughout this conversation here i'm all over the map but have you always been all over

the map um uh you know i think it's the brooklyn the expressiveness with the body you know we speak more with our body than our mouth for some reason. I don't know, maybe we have a short tongue on the English language. But just the way we, I don't know, be a cop, you always watch your back. You know, so there's a lot of, you know, I don't know how to explain it. It's just that's the way we speak. Now, it's a very well done movie. Excellent. way we speak. Now, this, it's a very well done movie, but the subject matter itself, the actual

story itself, the facts involved in the story are fucking completely insane. I mean, you, you guys, you were involved in so much craziness. It was out of control. But here you are, you're out on the street, you're doing podcasts, you know, you're doing press for the movie. It's got to feel weird for you to have gone through that. It's different lives. And the way I see it, I was a young boy, young man, police officer, convict, inmate, parolee, and now I'm somebody else. It's just weird how, like a chameleon, you just change with the environment. And that's how you adapt and overcome anything is you just have to learn how to live with the environment you're in.

And it seems like that's – that doesn't seem the same. First of all, you know, let's be real. I was 23, 24 years old when most of these incidents took place. And then they carried on. The more detailed the criminality took place later on as I got closer to my 30-year number. But you talk, I'm 54 today, so my perspective on everything I did and my perspective on the world today is way different than it was back then. Yeah, whenever I try to watch a documentary about people doing crazy shit, I always imagine myself like, what would I do if I was in that situation?

How would I have reacted if I was a young man? And I probably would have been right there with you. Yeah, you know, it's sad. But you know what's sad about that? Is it's people giving the opportunity to do wrong and they can get away with it. You have to ask yourself this question. If I could take that $200,000 lodge right now, just, you know, plain out question, and never have any negative consequences happen to me.

Now I'm not saying because you broke the moral code of policing and all that shit. I'm just saying just be a normal human being, woke up, find 200 large. No one's going to miss it. It's not yours and you're never going to have any bad karma or anything happen to you. Would you take it? It's a good question and you don't know until you're right there. No one even knows except for one person that it's theirs. And it depends on where you are in your life. In your life.

You're broke. You got kids. You got a mortgage. You have rent to pay. Your car's broken down. You got no gas money. If you're a 55-year-old man and you have a happy family and you have a good career. You make a phone call.

You probably do something nice and you get on the news. Right. Look at this. Michael Dowd. What a gentleman. Gave away something nice, and you get on the news. Right. Look at this. Michael Dowd gave away $200,000 he found in a bag. Well, I didn't know what to do with it. And I'm good. My life is good. I got a house in the hills.

But when you're 22 and you're on blow. 24, I started popping that. Yeah, and also, it's interesting because you're constantly around people that are making insane amounts of money, and they're doing it by breaking the law. Yeah, let's focus a little bit here. This is the 1980s, crack epidemic, East New York. Right. So no action I do is justified, okay? Right.

I did wrong, and I paid the fucking price, I hope. Some people want me for life. Some people want me dead. But you know what? Fuck you, too, all right? I'm here. I'm out people want me for life. Some people want me dead. But you know what? Fuck you too, all right? I'm here. I'm out. I did my time.

I served it straight up. I walked the track by myself for 12 fucking years. Kiss my ass goodbye, okay? So now I am here to talk about the stories that made the story of the 7-5 what it is. I didn't bring this upon myself. I mean, the actions and all that, yes.

But somebody approached me from Hollywood, wanted to do a documentary about this commission called the Marlin Commission. I told them it's a piece of shit deal. Do a story about the boys from the 75, and I think you'll have a good movie. So what was the original thing they wanted to come to you about? Well, I was the, the main focus, which is a thread throughout the documentary, is that there was these hearings called the Marlin Commission, which if people know know history they can go back to the Knapp Commission when Persico, Serpico, Persico is a guy who did time with the Colombo family but so Serpico was a cop who got shot in the face in the movie Serpico and in fact he

actually commented on this documentary to Tilla Russell, the director. It's 2 in the morning. You guys out here don't know the fucking time. It's 2 in the morning. My text message goes off because it's 10.30 at night, 11 o'clock at night for him. I just got a phone call from Serpico saying it's the best movie he's ever seen in his fucking life. Wow. I'm like, fuck Serpico because I really don't like Serpico, to be honest with you, because he said some nasty things about me, one.

And two, he was a rat. But he says, well, Mike, he's Americana, he's history, and so I got to give him his props. I said, fine, but I really don't want to hear he liked my movie. So fuck him. But I'm not against him, really, but certain people you keep at a distance, and he's one of them that I would choose to. I mean, I'd shake his hand and say you're a good guy,

but I'd be lying. The Serpico thing, he ratted out other corrupt cops. Is that what it was? Yeah, he did the right thing. Yeah. So fuck him.

And no one liked him. I mean, that's the way it is, right? Right. Was that movie accurate, that Al Pacino movie? I can't. Look, I must say, that's Serpico.

Yeah, ask him. What is the word? Is the word that it was accurate? The word is that the shooting was not quite the way they said in the movie itself. But he turned in his partners. You know, they wanted him

to take the money and he wouldn't take the money. And, you know, he was intransigent about it and someone shot him in the face. And I've been in the building half a dozen times in the 9-0 precinct.

They actually shot another movie there by one of the actors. I can't think in the face. And I've been in the building half a dozen times in the 9-0 precinct. They actually shot another movie there by one of the actors. I can't think of the name. What's interesting is your partner, when you were your partner in this film, turned you in, but he was involved in a lot of it with you, and he never wound up doing it in time. Yeah. I mean, this story can go in many different directions here, Joe. Kenny was, let's consider a good cop, you know, he was there for the money.

What was his last name? Urell, Kenny Urell. He was there for the money. He would make calls. He'd lock everybody's husband up. Like, you would have a fight with your wife in the ghetto and this was like a daily thing, you know, and he would go there and lock you up and take you out.

That was his gig. He did that for years. That was his overtime money. And I told him, I don't really like to do those things, and we got together and... He had like a specialty? That was his specialty. Domestic violence?

Ironically. Ironically. Oh, deep in terms of... The story goes deep. Ironically. Okay, so I understand what you're saying. Yeah. So... Isn't that something? It always is. This story goes deep. Ironically. Okay, so I understand what you're saying. Yeah. So.

Isn't that something? It always is. So he would arrest these guys, and how would he make money doing that? Well, you'd get overtime. Every arrest would land you at least eight, sometimes 16 hours of overtime, depending upon what time you made the arrest. Oh. So he'd be able to make the arrest and go to sleep for fucking 12 hours and make $600, $700 on someone's misfortune.

And, you know, they may have been legitimately arrested. I'm not saying they weren't. So how would he make money off of going to sleep? I don't understand that. Well, when you're awaiting to book a prisoner slash potential inmate, you have to wait for hours and hours and hours. So you would sleep on newspaper racks, boxes in the hallway, central booking. Central booking was like a mass unit. Really? So you arrest a guy and then you go take a nap somewhere?

That's how it was. Wow. Yeah, so you would get paid to lock somebody up. So that's why the city was against arresting drug dealers. This whole thing turns into a whole conundrum here. Yeah. Like that word? Anyway, um, the crack epidemic caused, um, the city to go broke in many ways because you'd have police officers arresting people for minor drug offenses that were, you know, it was crime, you know? And cops are supposed to arrest people for crime.

So what happened was it would cause so much to process an arrest that they would sort of discourage you. And by that, I mean, they wouldn't say, don't do that. It was never in policy. But you would find yourself on a footpost somewhere. Like, I would get the post down in Vandalia by the weeds. Well, there was drag racing there at night, and that was it, you know. And so I would get, like, eye allergies from standing in the weeds if I made arrests for drugs. Really?

Yeah. So that's how they would discourage you from making arrests. And just to save money. Well, what do bureaucracies exist for? Profit and loss. But that's a- They don't exist for the people. We, as police officers, are supposed to serve the people. Then you become part of a system that's not there for them, they're there for themselves.

So were you there before the crack epidemic and during- I was there just before the crack epidemic started. In fact, we didn't know what it was. We used to toss people just because we get drug calls, you know? So you toss someone, what the fuck is this?

We'd be throwing it out, we didn't know what it was. Wow. And then one day, one of my partners brought it home and he came back with like $500

and said, that's what that shit was last night. I go, what is it? He goes, it's cocaine. I go, you gotta be fucking kidding me, you've been throwing this out. Wow. And that was 84.5 slash 5.

Yeah, I remember hearing about it because I was in high school at the time, and people started talking about crack. Like you would hear it in the news, crack epidemic, and then this violence and crime epidemic. Well, you heard about it because Len Bias. That's right, yeah. You were in Boston at the time? Yeah.

He was the basketball player that was drafted by the Celtics, and he never played a day. Because after he got drafted, they gave him this big signing contract and everything, he went out and partied, did some crack, had a bad heart on top of it, and killed himself. So Ted Kennedy put these laws in place which put half the urban kids in federal prison

for fucking life sentences, which now Obama's rightfully, in many cases, rightfully undoing. And that's a big political issue that we might not want to get into. Well, it was a crazy- One of the only things I agree with him on is that. Ted Kennedy? No. Obama.

Obama. Right. Yeah. Well, that's a big one. The war on drugs is one of the most ridiculous ones. Well, it's ridiculous. They should just get rid of all drug laws and let people go to rehabs. Yes.

And there'd be no money in it. I agree. I mean, simple. Yeah, exactly. Make it simple. Well, I mean, they've known that since the organized crime epidemic of the prohibition. Right, yeah. It's the same shit. That's what empowered organized crime, the ability to make shit tons of money.

That's what's going on down in Mexico right now. They're making money off the fact that drugs are illegal in America. When this is all going down, for people on the outside like me, you know, I had heard about it, but I didn't know how much of it was real. You know, you hear things about the news and the news being, you know, they blow things out of proportion. It turned people into criminals. It really fucked. And look at us. I mean, we were good guys. Most of us were good guys from hardworking families, cops, firemen, you know, blue-collar people, you know, sanitation workers, bus drivers, plumbers, electricians. And you became a cop.

You thought you were still in the same genre of blue-collar. And, you know, you were the ones that equated to Beirut. It was like going to fucking Beirut. And, you know, and supervisors were just happy that you were there And like and that we can all go home today, so you know so you took a odd 10 20 grand No, no one really gave a fuck the problem was when people start complaining and make noise then it brings attention So when when you're there before this is happening What how much different was the environment that you were policing before crack and after crack? It was like a storm.

It was like a fucking tornado came in and ripped the fucking community right apart. Now, don't get me wrong. It was, you know, urban ghetto that survived the 60s and the turmoil and all that stuff. And you had your racial breakdowns within communities. But I got there in, I want to say 83. I'm old now. So I got there in 83, 84. So I was there about a year and a half.

And it was getting crazy because Coke was expensive. Coke was $50,000 a key. So it was tough for the inner city community to have it. But it was around. And then when it dropped down to like 15, 20,000, 14,000 a kilo because of crack and the volume of, I guess, whoever was bringing it in,

you know, there's many theories on who was helping bring that in back then. It's just, everybody can now get it. And everybody now experienced the, you know, the studio 54 high. Now the kid in inner city was experiencing it for five seconds. Bang. Goodbye.

Ooh, I loved it. Now they're looking for their next hit. And it was just... So it just radically changed. It was blood on the streets everywhere. It was fucking ridiculous. Wow. Now when you got...

Every day. Every day. Every day. You just saw gunshots, knives. Stabbings and shootings every day. Wow. It was exciting. Yeah, I'm sure.

It was fucking great. Well, that seems like part of it to me. Like when I was watching this, I was like, geez, it seems like in a way you're kind of having some fun. Oh, I had fun every day. I didn't want to miss work. I believe you. I hated fucking three-day swings.

And the cops will listen to this, a lot of cops hate me, but they sort of respect me in a way because they understand. Not respect for what I did. Right. My honesty. I hope that's what they take from this. Because you've got a lot of cop fans and shit like that, and they respect you and the martial artists, guys.

Most of them are really good guys, but they get it. It's the ones who get what I'm talking about that will appreciate this conversation, you and I having. Well, I think if you're a cop in Orange County and you're a police officer in Irvine, you're dealing with a little bullshit here and there, you've got to kind of know there's a big fucking difference between that and East New York in the 1980s during the crack epidemic. I hope you do, because if you don't. You've got to know.

And you've got to know what's the difference between. I mean, it seems like it wasn't just you. It seems like your entire precinct was kind of full of shenanigans. Well, let's put it like this, and this is to take nothing away from the, at that time, let's say 90% were all legit. Guys going to work, you know, with their lunch pail and going home and waiting for the next paycheck. I mean, I used to forget my paychecks because I was making so much money. That's the truth. And that got me in trouble, by the way. That started this whole investigation on me. Because you forgot your paychecks. I kept making so much money That's the truth and I've got me in trouble by that started this whole investigation on me

Was because you forgot your paycheck kept forget to pick up and you pull up you Corvette. Yeah The lieutenant spot I pulled it in that sort of pissed him off You know sometimes you want to make a point like fuck you he's trying to take my girlfriend away Fuck you parking in your spot. You're not getting her or the spot now girlfriend away. Fuck you. Parking in your spot. You're not getting her or the spot now. That's hilarious. So it was just, it seemed like it was a lot of fun. Like there was this one case where you guys were talking about where you kept circling the block. Listen, I got a better story. That was fun. That was fun. But I'm going to cheat with

me because I got like 600 stories here and I'm working with a guy named Rob Sear right now. Him and I are starting to collaborate on, we're going to do maybe the book again. You know, we got to put. Please do. Well, this is a process here. You know how things. You know, you've been probably through this yourself personally. We got some people in.

But I'm talking with, we're dealing with Sony a little bit. We're trying to get this thing right. I think Rob Sear, who's an ex-New York City cop, who's done a couple bestsellers, he might be the right one to put the whole thing together with me. I can speak. He can write. He knows the color in the middle. Right. You know, we're a writer and could make it happen.

Especially since he was a cop. He was a cop. And he's got some credibility. He does the Gotham Comedy Show in Manhattan. I don't know. They run some live shows sometimes. Oh, live from Gotham? From Gotham. Right don't know. They run some live shows sometimes. Oh, live from Gotham? From Gotham.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On AXIS TV? Yeah, he does a lot of that stuff. Okay. So he's involved in that. So he's got some credibility. He does it as a comic? Does he do stand-up?

No. He's in the productions part of it and stuff like that. But he's a writer. And he wrote two bestsellers. So I think we're going to have him talk with, what's his name, Lesher. Lesher from the, John Lesher, I think his name is. Oh, there he is.

Who's that? He's got the Academy Award list, yeah. Oh, okay. So we're going to have a little discussion, him and I. About doing a movie or something? About the 7-5 movie. Sony owns the rights.

Right. We're just trying to make it work right now, you know. So there's a lot of discussion going on on making it come together properly. So Sony owns the rights to do a dramatic recreation? Recreation of the 7-5, yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

I think you've got to do a book, though, because I've got to imagine there's no way they're going to jam that into— I'm going to tell you a funny story. So I'm on patrol in Brooklyn, and I'm working with, I can't remember. It could have been Kenny. I don't fucking know. I don't care because I'm just telling you from my perspective. And down the block comes this guy, Chickie. Chickie's in the movie.

Yeah. Yeah, he's a piss. And he's in the back of his trunk of his car. The trunk is wide open in the back. He's got this Joker poker machine in the back of his car, the patrol car. What's a Joker poker machine? Like a gambling machine in the back of his car, the patrol car. What's a joker poker machine? A gambling machine? It's a gambling machine, yeah.

You put your money in, and they don't pay out, but they do pay out if you know the right people behind the counter. So it's a gambling device that you can get away with gambling or not. We hand out candy. Instead, they hand out money, depending upon who the patron is. Oh, I see. Okay. So it was back in the 80s. That was the game.

So we're driving down the block, and here comes the sergeant. Now, he's driving this way. I'm driving this way. I helped him load the machine into the back of the patrol car because it's heavy. It's about 1,000 pounds, this machine. So he loaded this into the back of his patrol car and up pulls the sergeant. You know, the sergeant has no idea what's going on. He's like, what's going on?

Oh, this guy pissed me off. He started saying, this guy pissed me off. Chicky starts saying, this guy pissed me off. Who? You know, the guy behind the counter. You know, he made me pay for soda or something. Meanwhile, he's got illegal Joker poker machines in his store. So Chicky says, that's it. These your machines? He goes, yeah.

The owner, the patron of the store. He goes, yeah, that's my machine. So he says, okay. He takes the machine, blows them in the back of his car. He's, yeah, that's my machine. So he says, okay. He takes the machine, blows them in the back of his car. He's going to take them home and empty them out because it's got $4,000 in quarters in the machine, right?

So he's pissed. The guy made him buy a soda for a dollar. Now he's going to take all the quarters out of the machine. So here comes a sergeant. Sergeant is driving by. He's on probation. Cop's going on probation

and they pass. Then they move, stay patrolman steady. A sergeant goes from patrolman to sergeant and then he's on probationary period. So here comes a sergeant on probation. He's this four or five-year veteran cop with a joker poker machine in the back of the trunk of his car. And he goes, what's going on?

He says, oh, the guy pissed me off, sergeant. I'm not letting him do this illegal gambling shit. There's everywhere. Every fucking store has one, right? Right. So there's 600 stores. There's 6,000 machines in the precinct, but this one's got to go, you know? So the sergeant says, what are you doing?

He says, I'm taking it. He goes, why? Well, the guy pissed me off. He was rude. He's disrespectful. And this is illegal. It's a crime. And we got guys getting shot, murdered, stabbed, selling crack on every corner.

He's taking this guy's joke, a poker machine. So that's how insignificant these things normally are. So the sergeant's like, Chickie, he may have disrespected you, and you may be pissed off, but you got to put it back, please. Sergeant's like, he's like, why, Sergeant? He goes, oh, I'm on probation.

I don't need any problems. So P.S., we go, okay, Sergeant, no problem. Bring it back. So Chickie turns around, looks at me. He goes, all right, Sergeant, we're putting it back. We drove back to the store. Sergeant left, went right from his, right from the store to Chickie turns around, looks at me, he goes, all right, Sarge, we're putting it back. We drove back to the store, Sarge left, went right from the store to Chickie's apartment. Like you said, you wanted two apartments before.

Anyway, he had an apartment local in the precinct. So we went to the apartment, dropped the Joker poker machine off at his apartment. I mean, these are the things we would do, you know, because, just because you could. Just because you could. Because you could. Well, it seems like it was just,

there was a lot of excitement, like, doing all that. Like, driving around the block store was my favorite because you were driving around the block for like an hour and a half. Yeah. Well, because Chickie didn't get there in time. He didn't have a car. Chickie had left the job because of all the investigations. You got that from the documentary.

Yeah. So I needed someone. Kenny wasn't available, so I don't even know if I was working with him yet. You know, he'll say he probably was, but whatever. Anyway, so he, Chickie had his car in the shop being repaired, so I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. I need someone now with a car and a badge. That's all I need. So I didn't want to lose sight of the house in case, you know.

For people who haven't seen the documentary, what was going on? Well, the house, there was a burglary call at the house, so we responded as patrol people, and we checked out the place, and inside it was two young girls who were sitting there on the floor in this home with the door knob broken off. And they said that they were given permission by the owner of the home to spend the afternoon or day here in her home. I asked her, well, where did the owner happen to be? Since you broke the door and all up to get in. Oh, she's in prison right now. I said, oh, and for what? And she goes,

well, I think for drugs. I said, okay, very good. Thank you. So I turned left hard and there's a box of fucking shoes, piles of box of shoes. If anyone knows anything about the drug business, they spend a lot of money on their personal shoes because what else are you going to spend money on? You can't build a new house in the ghetto. You're just wasting your money, but you they spend a lot of money on their personal shoes because what else are you going to spend money on, you know? Right. You can't build a new house in the ghetto, you know, it's just wasting your money, but you could have a lot of shoes. So I saw all these boxes of shoes, nice high heels, pumps, all this stuff, so I said, okay,

there's a girl in here spending a lot of money on shoes. And the furniture looked pretty good for the location. So I opened the closet and there's a fucking duffel bag filled with cash. I pick up, actually, that's really not exactly what happened. Some anti-crime guy went in there, picked up the bag. He looks at me. I look at him. I go, what are you going to do, voucher this?

Come on, we spend all day vouchering the money. Leave it there. He looks at me. He looks at me. He goes, all right. He puts it down. I put my hand in the bag and start stuffing the money in my pockets. But I had no room.

I didn't have enough room. I was wearing summer clothes. I didn't have my winter uniform on with the jacket where you can stuff everything. So anyway, I said, this is not going to work. There's too much money here. You can't run out of a building with a bag filled with money and have the cops see you because they're going to say, where'd the bag go? Right?

Right. So my enemy was the cops at this point. So I found a way to circle the house for an hour and a half in every possible direction you could. And then Chickie finally pulled up with another guy that was retired from the job. They walked in with their Duke badges on, and the landlord lets them in. And yeah, up there, they just left that apartment right up there. And he went in, he'd come out with the bag, and about a minute later, I pulled him over. Boop, boop, pulled him over.

How'd we do? Real good. I go, what are you going to do? He goes, let's about a minute later, I pulled him over. Boop, boop. Pulled him over. How'd we do? Real good. I go, what are you going to do? He goes, let's go to Atlantic City. I go, great. I go back to the cell phone. I go back to the pay phone on the corner. Back then, we had the original car phone.

You would drive the patrol car up on a curb and just reach out to the fucking AT&T phone booth, so you'd sit in the patrol car and dial the precinct. So I dialed the precinct. It was a free call, by the way. You didn't have to pay for it. And, hey, boss, yeah, my wife needs me at home right now. You know, one of the kids broke a toe.

Whatever excuse you can come up with. Okay, no problem. Come in. You can take lost time. It's called lost time. So I told the girl in the car I was working with, who was an IED plant, by the way. She was an internal affairs plant sitting with me the whole time. I said, okay.

I said, you know, I got to go home. My wife just paged me. We had beepers back then. My wife just paged me. The kid's sick or something. And so I went back to the precinct, signed out, went to Atlantic City in a limousine. And so I cleaned the money. The girl who was driving around with you as you were going around for an hour and a half was a plant?

Yeah, she was an internal affairs cop. Wow. I don't think I ever told anybody that a plant? Yeah, she was an internal affairs cop. I don't think I've ever told anybody that. She was an internal affairs cop. So did she get suspicious? Did she ask questions while you were driving around in a circle for an hour and a half? I told her. I said, just in case someone comes back and breaks in, you don't want to see this people's house get ransacked or anything. She didn't know there was money in there, otherwise she would probably have vouchered it, you know. We didn't let her know that. But did you know she was a plant? Yes.

So you knew? Yes. Wow. Very good job they did of hiding the plant. In fact, I had a beer with her two days before. But it seemed like all this stuff that you were doing, all these criminals that you were dealing with, like the heightened sort of environment that you were in must have been very addictive because there was just so much going on.

There was so much action. It was, listen, when you're 28 years old and you're driving to work and you got the nerves on one side of your body freezing up on the other side, from the head to your arms going numb. Yeah, there was a lot of shit going on. Why was it going numb?

I don't know if it was from the coke or from the nerves. Just because you didn't know what was going to happen from one day to the head, to your arms, going numb. Yeah, there was a lot of shit going on. Why was it going numb? I don't know if it was from the coke or from the nerves. Just because you didn't know what was going to happen from one day to the next, but you just couldn't get out of it. The stress must have been insane. Yeah, it was insane. I would pull over on the side of the road and say, okay, if I die over here, it's okay, they'll find me. Like, that's how crazy it is.

So if you die from a heart attack, you die from coke? Yeah, I didn't know what it was going to be. Wow. Driving to work, I'm not know what it was going to be. Wow. Driving to work, I'm not sure. So I feel my body starting to go out. So I pull over to the right. So I didn't hurt anybody. I'm very conscientious here, right?

It's weird. Wow. So there was so much going on. I mean, how much coke were you doing? Not that much. I was a steady bumper. I wouldn't do a lot. You're just doing it all the time.

Yeah. So it wasn't like giant scar face quantities? If I did lines like that, I'd be dead. Yeah. I don't do a lot. Just doing it all the time? Yeah. So it wasn't like giant Scarface quantities? If I did lines like that, I'd be dead. Yeah. I don't know how they did it. I tried that once. It almost killed me.

When you were testifying in that film, that was one of the more intense parts of that movie because you were just 100% open, 100% honest about it. To my own fault, yeah.

To your own fault? Yeah. Do you think you shouldn't have? Some things I just should never have fucking mentioned. Like what? Like with the girl and the money under the fucking Bible. Excuse me, Lord. You know, I'm still scared of God.

You know, you come and get me. I ask for forgiveness every day, you know, but, you know, that was the most horrific thing I ever did, I think. You know, the thousands of things I did. I took someone's $304, whatever it was. I don't know. I don't I did I took some someone's $304 whatever was I don't know I don't know can't he'd count it better to me but was it just seemed like it seemed almost for you at the time like when I was watching it like you were just so overwhelmed with the pressure of everything that it was almost a relief to get everything off your back when

they locked me up when they hit but if I tell you how the arrest went down, it's insane. But anyway, when they finally put me in the car and tell me I'm under arrest, it was like, now I can go to sleep. Really? I can actually sleep. And funny thing of it all was, you know, and this is a little touching maybe, but we're not,

but I'll try to be lighthearted here. I call my wife from the county jail, and she goes to me, like, please don't take this the wrong way. She says, but I had the best night's sleep

in my life last night because I knew where you were. I said, you've got to be fucking kidding me. That's hilarious. I don't know. Because I knew where you were.

I knew where you were. I knew, yeah. She slept like a baby and I had roaches crawling in my ears, but yeah, it's okay.

How much of what was going on did she know about? She only knew that I was doing wrong for the most part. And she knew there were drugs involved. But she didn't, never, you know, touched it, got involved in it. You know, she just begged me every day, stop. But it seems like you kind of can't. It's hard. Does anybody ever go corrupt and then just go cold turkey like a heroin addict?

Good story. Yeah? I tried. Did you? I called Internal Affairs. Really? Yeah. When?

How old were you? I was a cop. I was in the middle of my heyday. I said, I have to stop and turn over a new leaf. My son was born, and I had to become a responsible father, I said. And this is not going to work out doing what I'm doing. Right. So I was in Coney Island, which is where I

think the movie's going to start, if they do it the way I suggest. I'm in Coney Island in front of Nathan's. Right by Nathan's is the bumper car station where everybody goes and drives the bumper cars, they bang into each other, and it was a rainy summer. There must have been 30 good days, and the rest were lousy for the whole summer, and this is one of the days that it was, and up. There must have been 30 good days and the rest were lousy for the whole summer.

And this is one of the days that it wasn't. And up pulls this Mercedes Benz, a guy in the car with the gold rope chains and the whole drug package going on. And I just turned my head to my partner

and I said to him, look at the fucking gold on this guy's neck. Now he's got boom box going, those big woofers and everything, convertible Mercedes. That's all I said.

All of a sudden I hear, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. And I don I hear, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. And I don't turn for yo, yo, yo, yo for nobody. But I hear the footsteps, feel the weight of it, and I just glance back and I see a shield in the guy's hand, a big black dude monster. I go, what's up? What do you want?

You don't know who the fuck you are. I said, whoa, whoa, what's going on? He goes, you said, I asked you what's going on he goes you said i asked you can i park here and you said can't you read i said where'd that happen that conversation all i did was turn to my he was a cop yeah so he was undercover no no no so he was a corrupt cop he was a corrupt cop yeah wow i didn't know this i didn't know him so you thought he was a drug i thought it was a drug dealer all I thought he was a drug dealer. All I was doing was complimenting the package he had. Right. You know, the hookup.

Giant gold and Mercedes. The girls had the hoops with the dollar signs. It was the package. The girl had hoops with dollar signs? Yeah, you know how that was. That was the 80s. Oh, those are the best. Yeah.

Any girl with a hoop, dollar sign, that's my kind of girl. Yeah, I mean, you know. I just like it when they wear it i mean you know it's clear it's pretty clear where this is going right right so anyway so he doesn't know you're a cop i'm in uniform welcome oh jesus christ coney island i was sent to coney island detail because i was in trouble in east new york so he's giving you a hard time and he knows you're a cop yeah i'm in uniform and he's giving me a hard time a very embarrassing moment because you don't do that you don't you don't punk each other out like that because now you're a cop. Yeah, and I'm in uniform and he's giving me a hard time. A very embarrassing moment because you don't do that. You don't punk each other out like that because now you create a scene

where something has to be mediated. So he's probably coked up at the very least. I'm not going to answer for him. Who knows? But he's whacked out, let's put it that way. Something's going on.

Something's going on, yeah. He's full of himself. He's full of self-importance. Who the fuck does he think he is when he's talking to me? Right. Talk about self-importance, right? So anyway, he makes this big scene and I talking to me? Right. Talk about self-importance, right? So anyway,

he makes this big scene and I squelch the scene. The sergeant comes and it's over with. Okay. About a week. I could tell the story different ways,

but the fact is, a couple days, a couple weeks later, go by, I'm out sick, which I should be home in my house, but I'm out.

I just left the beach with my wife. I'm driving home from the beach and I see this car parked on 111 right across from the cleaners which is known

for having a crack spot above it. Anyway, and it's his car and it's his fucking name on the license plate. That's how I know the car stands out

but it has his name on the license plate. You can't fucking, you can't miss that. Right. And I asked my wife, I said, what does he look like?

Get a good look at him because I don't want to, I don't want to stop, turn around, make it obvious but I could see him, you know, what does he look like? Get a good look at him. Because I don't want to, I don't want to stop, turn around, make it obvious, but I could see him, you know, I've seen him a few times. I had an argument with him

for 20 minutes. Anyway, long story short, I go home, I call Internal Affairs, they rush to my house. Joe Tromboli, the guy in the movie

that says he gets the hair on the back of his neck stood up. He comes in my house with Lieutenant Ma. They start grilling me about my fucking life. I'm like,

I called up on a guy selling drugs. No wonder why no one talks to you people. Anyway, Lieutenant Ma sends Joe Tromboli out of the house. And I go, Lieutenant, is this about me here? Because I'll just get a fucking lawyer. I don't know what's going on. I called you because some guy was selling crack around the neighborhood. He goes, well, how do you know he's selling crack?

I said, look, I don't know, but he's in a crack spot, and he's a cop. That's all I'm telling you, all right? So I want to turn over a new leaf, startROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD. HE GOES, HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S SELLING CRACK? I SAID, I DON'T KNOW, BUT HE'S IN A CRACK SPOT AND HE'S A COP. THAT'S ALL I'M TELLING YOU. I WANT TO TURN OVER A NEW LEAF. START MY NEW LIFE. I GOT A NEW BABY. EVERYTHING'S GOING TO BE GOOD NOW. I'M GOING TO BE A GOOD COP. FOUR WEEKS LATER, THREE WEEKS LATER, I'M GETTING CALLS AT MIDNIGHT. NOT MIDNIGHT. TWO IN THE MORNING. I WORK SIX TO TWO SHIFTS AT CONEY ISLAND.

THREE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, MY PHONE RINGS. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. Nothing. This went on for about, if I say three weeks, it could have been two, whatever. It went on for an extended period of time. Finally, I get the guy to talk one day. I go, bro, what the fuck, man? Why don't you just come out with it? He goes, I'm banging your wife every day when she gets off the train in Brentwood.

I said, really? That's nice. Yeah, when she comes home from work, she don't work, right? Yeah, okay. So she's, so when you go off to train from work, you're picking her up in Brentwood and you're banging her.

He goes, yeah. I said, okay. So what else can you tell me? I says, well, why don't you come to my house, I tell him, and we just do this since you seem to know where I am. He goes, why don't I put a bullet in your fucking head right now, he tells me.

And I'm standing in front of a plate glass window. So I'm like, ah! Meanwhile, my wife's screaming, and they're like, who the fuck is this? I'm like, shut the fuck up! I who the fuck who's this ahhh I'm like shut the fuck up I'm trying to the guy's finally talking

you're fucking this whole thing up so now I'm sucking sand out of the bottom of my rug and trying to stay alive I'm crawling into the back room

where my son and my wife are sleeping they're not anymore and I'm like I can't believe this this guy's fucking he knows where I live

and he's gotta be a cop I don't know that he until that's fucking, he knows where I live and he's got to be a cop. I don't know that he, until that moment, I realized because no one has my number and cops can get each other's number by calling the precinct. I want to get in touch with so-and-so. I want to get in touch with so-and-so. And we have private numbers in our log at the precinct

that you can get my number at if you need to speak to me. Turns out that he was already arrested and he was out on bail when he's doing this to me. So it was the same guy, the gold chain guy. Yeah, same guy. So here I am trying to turn over a new leaf. You asked the question. I didn't pose this.

You said, so what if I'm cold turkey like a heroin junkie and try to start from there? Well, I did. And look what happened to me. They threatened to kill me. They threatened to kill me. That's the beginning of it. Then I leave the Coney Island detail.

I go back to the 75, and no one wants to work with me. So if you go to the documentary, you hear, Mike's no good. Stay away from him. Mike's no good. He says, they didn't want to work with me because they heard I was a rat. Wow. Because they gave up a cop for corruption. Right?

He wears a wire. I never did, by the way. Kenny's good with them. I never wore a wire. I never really gave up a good cop or a cop that did. The guy was selling drugs on fucking Long Island trying to do the right thing turn him in

I know they're looking at me for drugs but not no more I'm no more involved with drugs I gave up the game I wanted to be straight so you can't go straight

is what I'm trying to tell you once you get labeled in the police department you're done because no one would work with me because I was straight well no one wanted

to work with you because they thought that you were untrustworthy because you were turning this cop in well that's what I'm with you because they thought that you were untrustworthy because you were turning this cop in well that's what I'm telling you right

but they would never admit to that they go anybody you talk to now says no he was rogue he was corrupt right

but the fact is they wouldn't work with me because they were afraid I was going to turn them in and if you hear in the documentary

he says well Kenny says the only thing he could turn me in for is having a beer he mentions Mike and I had a beer together

and I could just walk away from this partnership and they put us in the farm together which I went to the farm three times so I'm pretty good is having a beer. He mentions Mike and I had a beer together, and I could just walk away from this partnership, and they put us in the farm together, which I went to the farm three times, so I'm pretty good with the farm, too. What's the farm? The farm is where you go when you go for a rehab. You know, like, if you need help. Yeah.

Like, intervention. Like, they do interventions today. Right. Well, they did farms back then. Farms? Yeah, you went to the farm. Like, an actual farm? Yeah, you would go to the farm.

Like where cows are and shit? Yeah, where cows and fish. They had a fish pond. They had hay fields and shit. And what would you do there? Just relax? No, you'd dry out. Okay.

It was a place for mostly alcoholics. And they called it the farm? It was called the farm. Okay. And cops would go there too? Of course. Anybody would go there. You'd be in rehabilitation. Okay. But it was known called The Farm. Okay. Yeah. And cops would go there too? Or just anybody would go there?

You'd be in rehabilitation. Okay. But it was known as The Farm. Right. Yeah. It's renowned in the police department lingo. Okay. Yeah.

So- So I went to The Farm three times in like nine months. Wow. I needed to, well they were after me too. You know, they were fucking hard on me. And two of my friends just went to prison, Walter, who's in the film. They went to a prison for a robbery they committed. Was Walter the big guy? Yeah, Walter's the monster guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Always helps having a giant guy. You gotta have something. The fluff, the fluff is good, you know? He was a pretty sharp guy, too, but, you know, he was young and dumb, too. So he wound up going away. Did Chickie go away?

And then he did a short bit. He did, like, two years, and he came home. Chickie went away for nine months. And then they came back, and they needed work. So I helped find them work at different times. Chicky went to work for Adam as one of my point men. When I was off, I put Chicky on the clock. So if I wanted to go home, you know, go home after work,

I'd have Chicky cover the next six or eight hours of shift that the bodega would be open selling their cocaine. Now, that's where it gets crazy. The bodega. That's where it gets crazy. Well, that was when you guys escalated. When you got involved with the cocaine dealing. Yeah.

Well, what it was was the handwriting was on the wall because the 7-7 precinct went down for shaking down local thugs and drug dealers. And the rumor was that 7-5 was going down. So we stopped doing that. I went to Coney Island. Half the guys left the precinct to just quit, quit the police department, and Chickie wanted them. And when I came back to the 7-5, no one wanted to work with me. And, in fact, one of my first days back, I hook up with Walter, who's a rookie kid, didn't know anything except that, you know,

he liked to make arrests and get involved and shit. And then I'm like, dude, you don't know who I am. I just want nothing to do with this stuff. And he's like, yeah, I'll make the arrest. I look at him, okay, you're going to really stop crime in here. You're making an arrest for a fucking, for a drug. Okay, good. But I wanted to do it because I don't want the attention. Meanwhile, Joe

Tromboli, the guy that's following me, he's across the street watching us interact. It's all time. I call for, that's a long story, I call for the sergeant to give us a scratch so we can be done for the day. Scratch means the sergeant comes by and gives you a notification that you're on where you're supposed to be. I'm asking

the sergeant to give us a scratch just by calling something over the air, not asking for the scratch because that would be inappropriate, but I would call in a car I'm asking the sergeant to give us a scratch just by calling something over the air, not asking for the scratch because that would be inappropriate, but I would call in a car, license plate, and the sergeant shows up, gives us a scratch,

we're done for the day. I get in my private car, go to the bodega, pick up four hamburgers and eight pack of, you know, little nip bud lights. No, they weren't,

they were regular buds back then. And the sergeant's following us the whole time and he's watching us do all this shit. I'm over, now I'm over in the other end of the precinct because one of my favorite bodegas who makes a nice burger. And we came back to the spot, ate this stuff, threw the shit out the window.

Because it was the ghetto, and that's what you do like an asshole. Instead of respecting the community, you fuck the community because you're an idiot. You're dumb, young and dumb. So I threw the eight-pack of beers out the window. The sergeant sees it flying out the fucking window. He goes and grabs the cans. Now he's going to call me in and investigate me for drinking on the job. But Walter stood up and said, no, we didn't have nothing.

He goes, I got the fucking cans. He goes, they weren't ours. Walter held his mud early on. So I got a lot of them. He could have lost his job because he was on probation. When you guys started dealing with the guys who owned the bodega, that's when the documentary gets most crazy. Right.

And that's when it seems like you guys had escalated. You'd gone from just taking a little money here and there and having some fun and going to Atlantic City. Now you are deep. We're deep, yeah. In serious drug dealing. Yeah, yeah. And that drug dealing. Yeah, yeah. And that's why, you know,

when I had the meeting with Diaz, I said, listen, you're going to have to, just to talk to us, you've got to pay us money because I don't know where this is going to go,

but I know it's going deep. Right. You know, so I came up with a number, 24,000. Don't ask me why I didn't say 44,000. I have no idea. I just, I think in my mind

it broke down like this. Three months clear pay for each of us. You know, if the taxes at that time, we probably would have cleared, you know, do the math, you know, $3,000 a month, whatever it was at that time. I said, okay, so let's have three or four months of clear pay so if we get jammed up, we can survive. That's the number I came up in correlation to something like that. So it was in case you got kicked off the course? Yeah, right away, yeah.

Okay. Brilliant thinking, right? Knowing that something was not going to be good at the end of this. And where's that guy now? He's in like the Dominican Republic or something like that? Yeah, get him on the phone if you want. Really? Oh, I'd get him all right.

He was fucking hilarious. He's one of the best characters in the movie. Speaking of him, he asked me to give you this. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, beautiful. I don't know if you like cigars. I do like cigars.

What kind is this? Yeah, this is the Adam Diaz King of Brooklyn cigar. What, he's got his own cigar? Yeah. Oh, beautiful. I don't know if you like cigars. I do like cigars. What kind is this? Yeah, this is the Adam Diaz King of Brooklyn Cigar. What, he's got his own cigar? Yeah. Jesus Christ. We just started. It's in the development process right now. But if you check out the label, you really can't see it well, but there's a picture of

him with the unibrow. Did you see the movie with him with the unibrow? Yeah, his unibrow was tight. His unibrow. Yeah. I respect the commitment to a unibrow. Yeah, he was, yeah, yeah. These smell good.

Yeah. No, no, they're tobacco letter in Dominican. Do you smoke these? They're delicious. Do you smoke? Me and Marty had one. You smoke one right now? Do you want?

No, no, I wouldn't do that, but I would. They're delicious. That's okay. We could smoke them. We got a little air machine behind us. If you wanted to, we could. All right, let's do it. If you wanted to, yeah.

You got a knife shaming? Yeah, I don't know. A pair of scissors? These are delicious, by the way. I don't have a clipper. Yeah, but So he but he's a fucking character that guy's in that he's in that fucking unibrow. That's that's a commitment I know all these pussies today. I'm gonna tell you Like a bitch, but you know sometimes look you? Sometimes. You pluck your eyebrows? No, I don't pluck, I shave. Do you really? Shave the middle?

Right in the middle, otherwise I might have. I used to have more hair there than now. I don't know what happened. I think from doing this all the time. Yeah, from frowning? Just fucking. You wore it off? Yeah.

Or maybe from the mat. I definitely had more. Maybe. Yeah, man. Getting choked. Yeah, right? Bad defense. So a funny story with Adam, and I think most people appreciate this.

I hope they do. Adam's paying me $8,000 a week right now, and I don't see him for I hope they do uh Adam's paying me eight thousand a week right now and um I don't see him for two weeks now I'm getting a little fucking nervous right what do we got a pair of scissors there you go and uh what the fuck happened in these suits what are you doing Jamie getting crazy when I'm not here so Adam Diaz and I uh haven't seen each other in two weeks I'm getting a little annoyed because I want my money I want it on time. And part of the deal was whether you're making money or not, you're paying me.

Because we've already opened the door to this. I'm going to start living the life. Right. And can you open that, Mike? I'm just going to start living. My neck is killing me. What's wrong with you? I got two vertebrae I banged up there. Yeah?

Yeah. Someone probably grabbed me the wrong way. I hurt myself at work. Right. Just recently. So Adam Diaz. So anyway, I haven't seen this guy, and he owes me now two weeks. Right.

Okay. And if you learn anything about me, I don't like to be owed, and I don't like to owe. I like to pay. I like to be paid on time, and I'm always early. So anyway, I finally see him. He's got the red Porsche. I mean, 911 Targa, 22 years old, right? Yeah, go ahead.

911 Targa, blonde hair, blue-eyed Dominican, 22 years old, convertible. There he goes down New Lots Avenue where New Lots in Vermont meet in this little triangle. And so, and Kenny's with me in the car at the time. Probably the first time he was, but anyway. So, so. He's pretty good.

I just love the fact that I'm smoking that dude's cigar. Yeah, I just hit the fucking mic. So I pull him over and he goes, he doesn't know who it is. So Diaz is getting pulled over by the police in East New York and I'm his hook, right? But he doesn't know that it's me because he doesn't recognize me. All he sees is blue. This tall guy and he's sitting down low in the Porsche. So, license, registration,

insurance card. He's fumbling around looking for his shit. He probably doesn't have anything. But anyway, so, he's got his Dominican

pants on, his nice loafers. He's a sharp looking kid. He's always dressed to the nines. He looked good. And finally he goes, I look at him,

I go, Adam, it's me. He goes, oh, not on a mic. He jumps up out of the car. Hey, give me a hug. What the fuck? Where you been?

Like, I'm annoyed. Right. I'm annoyed, but I'm being nice. Where you been? I was in Yale. Yale? Yale. Jail?

I go, wait, hold on. Hold on. This is the only thing I can coin in my life that I know of. Right. So I go, Yale. You're in Yale. He goes, yeah. I go, how long were you in Yale?

He goes, three, four days. I go, okay. You were up in Yale three or four days. I said, who do you know in Connecticut? I swear to Christ. Who do you know in Connecticut? He goes, Connecticut. I go, yeah, Yale's in Connecticut, the college.

He goes, no, no, no. Not college. I was in Yale, R's in Connecticut, the college. He goes, no, no, no. Not college. I was in Yale, Rikers Island. He says that perfectly. I go, you mean jail, not Yale? He goes, yes, Yale. I go, son of a bitch. So I think I coined this fucking term, jail, not Yale, or Yale, not jail. Agreed? This is 1987, 88. I don't know you've been hearing that term. Yale. Agreed? This is 1987. 88. I don't know you've been hearing that term. Yale, not jail?

Yeah. Were you in jail, not Yale? No. I heard it 34 seconds ago. So here's this guy saying, I wasn't in Yale. I was in Yale. I'm like, you mean jail, not Yale. There you go. He just can't say jail? Couldn't say it, yeah. Well, he texts me all the time, and he goes, instead of going ha, ha, ha, he goes J-I, J-I, J-I.

J-A, J-A, yeah, they do that all the time. What is that? That's ha, ha, ha? Mm-hmm. That's so strange. Yeah, that's how you know if Spanish people are making fun of you. Yeah, J-A, J-A, J-A. Okay, yeah. you know if Spanish people are making fun of you? Yeah. J-A-J-A-J-A. Okay.

Yeah. So anyway, you can't make that up. Where were you? I'm thinking he's in college. Right. Because he's a sharp kid. But why didn't you automatically assume like I did that he meant jail? I'm not as sharp as you. But you're around

Spanish people all the time. Because he's out in the fucking street. He's out in the street driving a Porsche. If he was in jail, who the fuck let him go? The guy sells kilos a second. Well, how did he get out? I don't know. I didn't want to ask too many questions. I just wanted my money.

You want to hear you learn about me? I don't ask a lot of questions because if I don't like the answer, I'm going to get really fucking mad. Right, right, right. I just want the money. But dealing with a guy like that and dealing with an organization like that, you had to know that, okay, now I've taken this giant step. I'm involved with a serious murderer, cocaine-dealing motherfucker. Like, this is—

Horrible. Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible. You sell your soul. And, you know, what's to say other than this? I got a little annoyed with him, right? So I get in a...

I'm not living at home anymore. My life is a disaster, a complete disaster. So I call my wife up. I says, listen, things aren't going too good, hon. You want to get back together. I want some stability in my life. Right. So she goes to me, I'm okay from here.

Oh, no. How can you blame her? She goes, I'm okay from here. And so she goes, I go, listen, I'm going to Dominican Republic. And I'm going with this woman I'm seeing at the time who was a police officer, a sweetheart girl, anyway. And I go, would you go with me instead she goes take her have a good time and why tell me I mean wow what a good kid that's a good woman right there I ruin everything I touch anyway so you know

sometimes like I think adversity makes some women better. There's some women that like dealing with a, no offense, asshole husband. Yeah. Sometimes it just makes them a better person.

They learn how to roll with the blows better. They learn a lot. Yeah. Yeah, because they're sitting back observing this whole disaster

take place, you know. Because they're trying to stop you and you ain't listening. Yeah. So I go to Dominican Republic. Right. So I go to Dominican Republic. Right.

And I'm on the plane and there's this guy with a beard, well-groomed. He's making small talk with us, me and the girl. And he's got some woman with him. Look, I'm on vacation. I'm not going there to fucking rob anybody or make any deals. I'm going there to see my Dominican drug kingpin and see if we can get the money pipe flowing again. I'm a little distraught here now.

My income's cut way down. I'm only making about $2,000, $3,000 a week. I was getting $6,000, $7,000 a week between his payoffs and all my other shakedowns going on. I was doing good. Now I'm getting a little tight. I got fucking four homes. I got a kid I want to put away for his college.

Sorry, I never made that. But anyway, so there's a lot of things I got fucking four homes. I got a kid I want to put away for his college. Sorry, I never made that. But anyways, there's a lot of things I got planned here, and he's fucking it up right now because he's hiding in Dominica. Right. So I'm going to see him. So I get off the plane, and they're speaking Dominican to me, these people, and I can speak a little Spanish.

So I say, yo soy policía en Nueva York. Yo tiene un taxi o coche para transportar al casa de campo. I'm talking to a cop in uniform with sergeant stripes on, right? Right. The cab drivers start beating him up. Start beating the cop up? Yeah, they're grabbing him, pushing him, trying to knock him out of the way because they want to take the ride. And I want this guy, because he's bigoted, the cop's going to mediate for me and get me the right price. Because I know they're going to look to take advantage of the gringo

from America. Anyway, I end up fucking paying hand and fist for this ride. But in the interim, some guy steps over to me, the guy that was on the plane with me, and says, hey, how you doing? What are you guys doing? Where you going? And I'm like, well, you here

on vacation too? And we're talking back and forth. I'm going to see this buddy of mine, Diaz. He's a bodega owner in East New York. And the guy's like, oh, really? Where does he live? I go, I don't know, someplace in Lower Oman or whatever I said. Turns out it was the DEA.

They fucking followed me on the plane. How did you not automatically assume that? Because I'm a sociable guy. As soon as you said, I'm talking to this guy, I'm like, oh, Christ. You saw the movie. I guess that's what the problem is. I'm looking at it, hindsight of 2020. You're looking at it from the movie.

I'm fucking 27, 28 years old. Maybe I'm more paranoid than you. Well, I'm 48. If I was 28, I probably would have told him everything too. That's what I'm saying. I'm on vacation. I'm there to have a good time. I'm just looking I'm down there. I'm on vacation. I'm there to have a good time. Right. You know, and I'm just looking for like a friendly face.

Right. You know, and he speaks Dominican and don't worry, I'll take care of you. He says, I'll get you where you got to go. I said, great. So. The DEIA guy says I'll get you where you want to go? I didn't know it was fucking DEA. Oh, fucking Christ.

So anyway, we end up in the car. We get with this. We get all the way to this El Casa de Campo. I think it took three different ways to get there. So we finally get there and they put us in this house with four different couples. What? Like we're sharing

a fucking house with somebody now. Okay. No one's there. Who are these other people? I don't know them. Okay. I want a lover's retreat

for the weekend. Right. And they got me in a house like for people that want to go camping and hang out together and sweat and something. I don't know.

So I look around and I go, there's four something. I don't know. So I look around. I go, there's four other couples in this fucking house. Like I'm sharing a kitchen. I'm sharing this. I'm like, I'm not here for this. Right. So they drive us back to, I said, no, get me out of here. So now they drive us back to this little retreat right by the beach.

Get in there. Everything's good. Have a nice time. And I'm calling Adam every night. I'm in your country, bro. I fucking, like, do you and uh i'm calling adam every night i'm in your country bro i like do you see how i'm here joe i'm in i'm in l.a i live in long island i'm here i don't around i'm coming i'm coming right so i tell diaz i'm here he goes his wife he wants a phone his wife says he's playing basketball now if you saw diaz in the film he's five foot three i know maybe he's shorter than five foot three but he's cute he's five

foot three and cute so i'm okay okay. That's 1030 at night. I heard Prince is really good at basketball. Was he use his lips? Charlie Murphy talked about it. This guy's playing basketball. So I'm calling him every day and every night. Now I'm a little annoyed. I'm in your country. I'm here. Show respect. Show up. Right? Right. Plus the fact that you owe me fucking like $14,000 right now. I'm getting. Show respect. Show up. Plus the fact that you owe me $14,000 right now.

I'm getting a little nervous. Maybe more. Three weeks, four weeks pay. I'm talking about myself. I'm a little annoyed. I'm spending $1,000, $1,500 to come see you for a reason. Actually, $4,000 by the time I figure the trip out. Anyway, so he's playing basketball.

It's midnight. I call his fucking house. Now I'm mad. Midnight, I'm bringing this fucking phone. His wife basketball. It's midnight. I call his fucking house. Now I'm mad. Midnight, I'm bringing in his fucking phone. His wife answers the phone at midnight. Mike, he's playing basketball. I said, you got to be fucking kidding me. It's midnight.

He's 5'3". How much basketball could he possibly be playing? I'm in his country. I said, this is fucking disrespectful. Tell him I said that. I don't know if he's going to have someone hit me, kill me. I don't fucking know. I'm pissed.

At this point, who cares, right? Anyway, we turn around. We leave. We're getting ready to get on the plane. About an hour before the plane, I'm staying in El Emperador Hotel in the center of Santo Domingo, and there's a casino downstairs. I love to fucking gamble, right? Atlantic City.

Every time we hit a big load, we hit Atlantic City. So I'm in the casino. The lights go out in the casino. I got like 20 minutes. I put American money and Dominican money I used American I hit them for like six, eight hundred large

right in like ten minutes they want to stab me they don't want to let me leave they're trying to hold me feet there I got to catch a fucking plane like

I don't know it's a 40 minute ride from where I am so I got to get going now they're like you're cashing in I go yeah let me go they got flashlights on the table

because the lights go out like every hour or two. They go out for like 15 minutes. The casino's not, yeah, back then they did. So they're standing with flashlights making sure everybody's money's not getting stolen or robbed from them. I cash out and I leave, get on the plane and come back home.

So I get home. On the way home, I get strip searched in the airport. Now, you got to be kidding me. Coming from the Dominican Republic, there's nothing but packages with people with ropes and cardboard boxes. Right. I got luggage, like real luggage, you know. These people have stamps on the side, yayo, on the fucking side of their boxes coming in, right.

Women have their thighs cut open so they can stuff packages of fucking coke in their thighs, right. But I'm coming in with a little bag and a little, my little guinea tea, whatever the fuck I'm wearing, coming from Dominica, and I'm getting strip searched in the airport. So I'm looking around and I'm saying, this is fucking some setup.

Anyway, it's a setup. Now Mike Dowd is finally waking up, you know? Right. And I go, it's that fucking Tromboli. I didn't know his name.

I thought it said Tratbaum. His name is fucking Tromboli. I go, it's that fucking Tratbaum. I know it is. Anyway, get strip searched. She gets cavities search I broke up on the plane on the plane on the way back because I was gonna my wife say okay go have fun come back

We'll talk right so on the way back you like look Yeah, you know I'm going back. I'm going home where I belong right So yeah, she's a she's distraught now. She's getting my wife. I'm going home where I belong. Right. Anyway, so she's distraught. Now she's getting bent over. I just fucked her, and now these people are fucking her. So it's horrible. I mean, we're laughing because life is horrible. Well, after the fact, it's hilarious.

After the fact. Right, exactly. Anyway, so we get home and whatever. We do our last deeds. And outside, there's a fucking sub. I didn't want to tell her. Someone was outside fucking taking our license plate numbers down. They had flashlights on the inspection stickers for our cars.

Eternal Affairs was outside, you know, marking the locations and the times and everything else that I was at the house. I didn't want to tell her. I'm a spooker. So anyway, a week goes by, two weeks go by, whatever it was. Finally, I'm at Barron's shop, Auto Sound City, where this whole thing basically centers around. And Adam's there. And I want to fucking, I don't know if I'm going to bite him, kick him, hug him, or stab

him. I'm fucking, I want to kill him. Right. Mike, what the fuck? I was in your country. What the fuck is wrong with you? He goes, the DEA had your phones while you were in the Dominican Republic. He said they tapped you, they followed you.

He said, I was warned by the Dominican Police Department to stay the fuck away from you. Wow. You think he would have sent a pigeon or something? Send me a message? Well, he probably couldn't. Probably couldn't trust anybody. It's probably one of those situations where what can you do if you're, SEND ME A MESSAGE. WELL, HE PROBABLY COULDN'T. PROBABLY COULDN'T TRUST ANYBODY. IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE WHAT CAN YOU DO IF YOU'RE, IF YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE BEING TAPPED AND YOU KNOW THAT THEY'RE WATCHING, IT'S PROBABLY BEST TO JUST PLAY BASKETBALL.

THAT'S WHAT HE WAS DOING. PLAYING BASKETBALL THE WHOLE TIME. THAT'S WHAT YOU GOT TO DO SOMETIMES. JUST LAY LOW AND HOPE THAT HE SEES YOU. IT MAKES SENSE. YEAH, WELL, HE'S A SMART GUY. WELL, HOW DID YOU AVO. How did you avoid getting killed? That's what is most shocking, that you were involved with, I mean... Listen, you go into a ring, you think you're coming out, right?

Yeah. That's it. So, do you realize now, like, we're looking back on it, like, Jesus fucking Christ, like, I came really close. Well, the most serious affront that i faced was that guy cello that mentioned in the documentary and why i say that is not because at any moment something could have gone wrong in any deal you know um because at some point i began purchasing the coke from these guys because they couldn't constantly front your fucking kilos because they loved you you know and i could no longer buy them provide them protection because i wasn't they took

my guns and badge away. Actually, I surrendered it, though. Let's not, let's keep it real. I surrendered my gun and badge. Why did you surrender it? Because I was trying to get off the job on a psycho disability. Psycho disability? Yeah. You know, I mean, it makes sense.

Right. But they gave me my guns back. This was what's ruinous. They gave it to you back. They go, nope, we did an investigation. We decided you're A-OK. You're good! And I'm reading the fucking papers. You don't even know. This is surreal. I'm reading this. See this piece of paper I have here? On this piece of paper, there's a guy.

He's about 90 years old. This is no joke. Not written on here, but this is a 90-year-old guy. He's the head shrink in the whole New York City Police Department. He's got this piece, this dossier in front of him. He leaves it out, and I'm in there to get my gun and badge back. He's 90, so he turns around. He's got to go about, I don't know, 50 feet this way, open a locker, put a lock on it, take my gun and my badge and give it back to me.

So I'm sort of like doing a neck twist and curl, and it says, four or five separate allegations for selling narcotics out of a red Corvette. And this guy is giving me back my gun and badge. I'm like, this is fucking unbelievable. This is the first time I ever saw it officially in writing, what they had me under investigation for. There's 19 different fucking listed investigations,

but four specifically at one period of time from like 86 87 88 specifically laid out week after week what they were looking for me for i'm like and this is from a red corvette so i knew exactly what time that was i only had the red corvette for a short period as well so i'm like i can't believe they're giving my back i mean this is this is now i know i'm scared i don't now you know what do you do do you think that they were giving you shit back so that you could

keep doing what you were doing to catch you on more shit was that the idea behind it they don't ever want to catch you

really they don't ever want to catch you they want you to stop at that point so they don't want to catch you because if they

catch you it fucks with the whole department it's a black eye for everybody which is true and it's hard you know

listen what I did was not good. We know that, right? We're just talking about it right now. Do you know that, what was it, Tamir Rice? Is that the kid's name? The 12-year-old kid that got shot? They decided that it was okay, that there was nothing wrong. The investigation showed there was nothing wrong with the way the officer acted.

Got out of his car within two seconds, shot this 12-year-old kid who had a gun, fake gun, toy gun. Joe, a lot of these things that you mentioned, I don't know all the facts on. I'm not here to bash what cops do because what they do is an impossible job, right? The problem is that everybody makes mistakes. And when you're a cop and you make a mistake, it can cost somebody their life. Yeah. And that's the reality you know and you know if you ask me is there other solutions and other alternatives i say absolutely uh you know give the cop uh the body cameras give more

body cameras why not i mean you know everybody else is filming you might as well be the one filming it yeah the problem is this story is a totally unrelated story, but this story was on camera You know I caught a little clips of some stuff Joe I try not to pass judgment because I'm not the one there. I've been in a hundreds of listen in East New York I pulled my gun out every day. I probably pull my gun out 15 times a day Really and I never shot anybody so you pulled your gun out to warn people you pull to let them know that careful And I never shot anybody. So you pulled your gun out to warn people? You pulled your gun out to be careful?

Well, to let them know that this is serious and that I need to know where your hands are right now. Your hands are my threat. Right. And if I don't see your hands and you don't comply with me with your hands, then I may have to kill you. Right. May have to. I don't want to. Right.

But I'm letting you know. It's amazing that you never shot anybody. Yeah. Close. A couple times. I actually almost shot a cop once. Really? Yeah. Undercover? Yeah, undercover. Jesus. Close. A couple times. I actually almost shot a cop once. Really? Yeah.

Undercover? Yeah, undercover. Jesus. He was beating up some kids. He had a gun on a kid. And I told him to drop his gun. He wouldn't drop his gun. I was with Kenny that time. He could probably tell the story as well

because he remembers everything perfectly. Do you talk to that guy anymore, Kenny? Not really. We're not, you know, we don't have a good relationship. Let's put it that way. I would imagine that would be a strain on the friendship when a guy puts you away for 12 years. Let's put it that way. I would imagine that would be a strain on the friendship when a guy puts you away for 12 years.

It's not even that anymore. It's more the way he's handled things since then. He's just, listen, I don't begrudge him for what happened to his life. He made decisions in his life based on more than just his own freedom, okay? His wife's freedom was at stake as well, okay? His children's being put into a foster home possibility was there because, you know. Right. I understand.

Dory was directly involved in certain things, his wife. You two together on a podcast would be fucking epic. Well, we tried. Audis we couldn't do together. Why? We worked on audis. We wouldn't sit in the same room. I really don't want to give him the credibility that he does not deserve because he continually.

We have. We're at odds over certain things and aspects of the story certain aspects of the story and uh when i confront him and he just tells well you're a liar you know what do i have to lie about what do i have to fucking lie about right i'm the guy who did the fucking time i have nothing to lie about if you remember things differently than I, that's fine. But the reality is, I'm just going to touch on it briefly. This kidnapping slash murder slash whatever, execution slash bullshit. The thing at the end. The thing at the end. We weren't going to the woman's house to do that.

Okay? We were. We were going to the woman's house to survey her house. He insisted that we walk up to the front door. I said, what are you, out of your fucking mind? That's not even in the plan. That doesn't make the tapes. That's not even in the plan, Kenny.

Yeah, well, I'm not driving all the way here and not going up to that front door. First of all, that shouldn't even be a discussion because we're not going up to the front door. There's other people involved in this that are going to go in and come out. Didn't they get you on recording saying that you had to get rid of this woman? He said that. What you don't hear is what he's saying

for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, saying they're going to execute him, Mike. You know they're going to execute him. I'm like, who? Who's going to execute him?

The Colombians, he keeps saying. I'm like, first of all, where are the Colombians? Second of all, they're not here. And third of all, whatever.

We throw, whatever. I want to get past the conversation right because i sense he's fucking taping it you sense that i sense it to have i've asked him numerous times kenny you're wearing a wire come on just tell me the truth so was this before he was wearing a wire you thought he was wearing a wire no while he was wearing a wire so you knew when shit was going down it wasn't making sense so i kept saying him you're wearing a wire no no mike i would never do that to you. I'm like, I want to believe this guy.

I want to believe him. It should be one of those things like, remember in those old stupid TV shows where you'd have to say, you'd ask a cop, are you a cop? And they would have to tell you. You remember that?

People fucking believe that, which is goddamn hilarious. You know, if a cop, if you just ask him if he's a cop, they're going to tell you. What kind of fucking fantasy land are you living in? Good luck with that one.

That's goddamn hilarious. Actually, a cop is allowed to do a bump if he has to stay alive. Well, they're allowed in Hawaii to fuck prostitutes. Well, that's good. I'm on a job there. Did you hear that? That's true. It's a recent thing.

They made a recent decision that police officers in Hawaii are allowed to have sex with prostitutes on the job as a part of an ongoing investigation. Because they can't get enough on their own? I mean, come on. Well, because they have to find out things and the prostitutes won't trust them unless they fuck them. You got to fuck me. And then we can talk. Yeah, that's how they work. Okay.

Like I said, let's go there. Intimacy. We'll open up our own private detective agency. Well, undercover women wind up fucking drug dealers and stuff all the time, right? It's a dark secret, isn't it? Or at least it is in movies. Well, they could have gotten me pretty easily that way then, couldn't they? Why didn't they do that?

Yeah, why did they send Kenny in there? They could have sent any hot Latino broad in there. Yeah, with a tape recorder in her pussy. Yeah. She just had to have been in the neighborhood, I would have been done. Just send in one of those little dime packages. Well, the tape recorders back then, though, were fucking giant, monstrous, VCR-looking things. Could you imagine?

And I didn't check them because I was too proud. Like, you wouldn't do that to me. And my brother says to me, Mike, did you toss them? I go, yeah. I didn't check them because I was too proud. Like, you wouldn't do that to me. And my brother says to me, Mike, did you toss them? I go, yeah. I didn't. Wow. And thank God I didn't that day because, well, thank God. I mean, what's the difference?

I'm doing my time either way, you know? But what if you'd killed them or something? That would have been messy. It would have been messy. Thank God. In other words, thank God I didn't find out. Yeah. Well, anything could have happened.

You don't know. And there would have been assault and violence involved. Right. Now it would have been another level to something else. And you threatened a witness. How the fuck did I know he was a witness until a minute ago? Right. Exactly. That's the sneaky thing about it. Now you went away for 12 years. I was sentenced to 14 years. I took a plea agreement that was 10 to life. Okay. That's the plea. That was the plea. So how does that work when they say 10 to life? They offered me 24 to 30. Ooh.

That was my first offer. I called my lawyer, what the fuck? Did I kill somebody? He goes, that's just the way the federal government is. I said, that's nice.

So 24 to 30 was my first offer. Now, what pisses me off is here's a guy, he doesn't realize what he just did to a guy who was eating in my house a couple weeks ago.

Uh-huh. And now he doesn't realize that instead of just doing a guy who was eating in my house a couple weeks ago. And now he doesn't realize that instead of just doing our time together, like just take the – let me backtrack a little bit. Right. And we'll try to remember that where we were. Okay. When we were out on bail, Kenny had some options, as I did, to either cooperate with the government and give everything up and just go on and do your merry little bit in your life, whatever. It might have been too little. It might have been more.

So I get offered a shrimp boat trip, a job in Nicaragua to run a shrimp boat. A shrimp boat? Yeah. Who the fuck is offering you a shrimp boat? The owner of the Astoria Hotel, Astoria Manor in Astoria, Queens, he's got a catering hall with a bunch of weddings. And most weddings, they love to have shrimp at every wedding. He has 11 rooms in the catering hall. So he's got 11 people, sometimes twice a day, filtering shrimp through his business. So he says, Mike, you're going away for a long period of time.

He said, so I got an option for you. I need a shrimp boat captain in Nicaragua. You want to go? I went, I'm in. So, you know, I'm looking for anything to grab onto at that point in my life. And I go home and I'm like, I give Kenny a call. I said, Kenny, listen, I want to talk to you. Mike, I don't know if we should talk. I said, Ken, let's meet and talk. So we have a conversation. And he says, Mike, I got a pension. I got a wife and a kid. He says, I'm not giving that shit up to go shrimp If I have to do a little bit I have to do it

Fine He says but I'm not giving it all up To go shrimp boat fishing In Nicaragua I said okay Done Story done

Case closed Done Never happened Okay Three four days later Maybe less Two days later The phone rings

Mike I'm interested in going fishing What are you talking about fishing So he comes to see me He says Now I see the fucking DEA over here. I see something over here. I see everybody. I'm being followed. I go, what are you talking about? He goes, I want to go fishing. Remember the fishing trip you were talking about last week? I go, what fishing trip? Fucking, you know, the Marlin fishing trip? What fishing

trip? He won't say the word. Shrimp boat in Nicaragua. Why? Well, it has to come from me. Why does it have to come from you? Because if you're working for the government at this point, you can't be the one that entraps the person. Oh. It has to come out of my mouth. So him saying the fishing trip. Let's go fishing.

Yeah. Right. So he wants you to say, I'm going to skip the country. Correct. He wants me to say, you mean like I do? Right. The shrimp boat job in Nicaragua? Right.

Yes. He goes, yes! He jumps up out of his fucking chair. I'm like, look, what the fuck are you so excited about? And now I know something's wrong. What a shitty actor. Yeah, he's ridiculous. So now I go, okay, something's not right.

And I start finding the fucking setup everywhere around me. And he's opening the window in his car. His hair's perfectly coiffed. I said, Kenny, what are you opening the window for? The fucking air conditioner's on. It's 95 degrees out. Your hair's going to get messed. Oh, no, no.

Anyway, he disputes that. Why would you dispute that? Anyway, so now think of what just happened. He's now come back to me and says he wants to go on the shrimp boat trip. Right. He goes home. I go home. I say, listen, it's a good idea.

We need a half a million plus because I can't leave my family broke. All their houses are up for fucking bail. Two days go by, and some Colombian calls me up and says, I need a half a million dollars of this. I need a half a million dollars recovered and 10 kilos from this woman's house in Jamaica in Avon. Same number. Just what I need. Exactly what I needed.

Right. You're suspicious. Yeah. A little bit. I'm a little suspicious as well. But I can't believe God is good, I'm saying. He's great. Look what he's doing for me.

So you really believed it? They played it off well. So, and I'm looking for anything. I'm desperate. Are you doing coke at the time? No, no, no. Six weeks clean. Wow.

I was in jail. So I was out on bail. And no one would sell anything to me. So I tried to pick up a package. My own dealer wouldn't sell it to me. Wow. That's when times are tough. Yeah.

When a coke dealer won't sell you below. My own guy. Too hot, man. I'm not going to go to Yale. Yeah, I'm not going to Yale. So I end up in a discussion with him, and this thing presents itself, and he's all over it now. Yeah, I want to go. I go, Kenny, you didn't want to go before.

He says, yeah, but now I want to go. He's like fucking screaming it. I'm like, okay. It sounds a little odd. Are you wearing a wire? No. Okay. Just checking.

Casual. Just checking. Anyway, so on and on and on we went, and eventually the sting was said, and the sting turned into what it turned into. And, you know, it is what it is. Well, you dispute it in the film you say that you yeah but I dispute the premise of the beginning of the whole process with the woman there's a controversy back and forth I never saw her never met her never intended to touch her myself personally ever now

how she was going to get in my car begged and gagged and whatever I don't fucking know okay but the fact is that we weren't supposed to do anything to her. So for people who listen to this that haven't seen the documentary, there was sort of like a last thing that you guys could do to make a shit

load of money and it involved kidnapping a woman who would eventually be murdered. Well, this is in the film, right? It's horrible. Yeah. All these eventuals are nothing that I never had anything to do with the eventuals. I never knew them. He knew them.

And they spoke Spanish, so how the fuck did Kenny know what they were saying? Right. I don't know. Maybe the government translated for him. But what part, if any, were you playing in or anticipating playing? I was going to take the money from a woman's house. Come on. You can do that in your sleep.

Take the money from a woman's house and the drugs and go home. Split it up with the Colombians and go. Somehow along the way, whether it be the government fishing, Kenny fishing, someone pushing, this woman was going to go from being money that wasn't hers. It was a drug dealer's money that was killed. Right. Her husband was a Dominican drug dealer who was killed. By whom?

I can't answer that question. But the fact is that he had a half a million in cash in that home, according to the setup people, and 10 kilos. And we can take it all and split it down the middle, and you'll have your money, you can leave the country. I mean, very convenient. Very. Yeah, very convenient.

That's all I was, right? Wow. What a crazy scenario, Very. Yeah, very convenient. That's all I was, right? Wow. What a crazy scenario, though. So, and that... So, it went from shaking down street drug dealers for a couple hundred a day to, you know... But see, that's like an attempted murder. That's a whole conspiracy. What, are you trying to get me a new charge?

No, no, no, I'm not. But I'm saying, like, they obviously couldn't pin that on you. Otherwise, you would have went away for a lot longer than 12 years. So you answered the question. But it seems like that was something they were trying to concoct to make everything a lot more severe. Correct. Okay. Now, when you go away, think about how many years you were involved in actual crime.

How many years do you think you were involved as a cop committing crime? Well, every time you put the uniform on and you don't do the right thing, you're pretty much committing a crime. How many years do you think you were involved as a cop committing crime? Well, every time you put the uniform on and you don't do the right thing, you're pretty much committing a crime. Right. And you have a gun on you. So how many years was that about? I'd say a solid five.

A solid five years. So it's not that bad to go away for 12 for a solid five years. No, no, I mean, you want to minimize my sentence now? I mean, every day is a long fucking day. Come on. I'm sure, but I was going to bring that up too. But what is it like when you go in there?

I mean, first of all, you're a cop. They know you're a cop. Yeah, everywhere I went, they knew. What is that like? I was the first person they knew on the compound when I hit the compound. And what is that? It's like having 1,800 men times two, because they each got two eyes, most of them, not all. So you have 3,600 eyes on you, never mind the 600 staff in there watching you 24 7 watch you threatening you you know you

eyeball someone that could be a threat right you in a you're in a fight game you know eyes can mean either compliance you know or fuck you and then then it's up to you how do you want to handle today did they think of you as almost one of them because you were also involved in crime? There was a strange relationship. Many of them wished that they were me because they would love to have had that power. I mean, dozens, if not hundreds, have said, man, I wish I was a fucking cop. All right?

I mean, really? Do you really? It's like having superpowers if you're a criminal. Yes. Well, if you see the film, it felt like you were God. Right. You just, you could do anything you wanted. It was horrible.

Well, that's what was my point about having that kind of power. In prison, you have none. Right. You're the least one they want. You and the child, Melissa, you know. So is that how they lump you in? Right in the same category. Wow.

Yeah. So basically, when they say I walked the yard by myself other than Mickey Monday who came up to me and said hello to me. Who is Mickey Monday? He's that blonde haired guy

from the Cocaine Cowboys. You ever see that? Fuck yeah. He's my buddy. That's my friend Billy Corbin's documentary. Both of them. Cocaine Cowboys 1 and 2.

That guy's your buddy? Yeah. You went to jail with him? I got a picture of him. The two of you together must have had some fucking great stories. We were together last week in Miami.

Jesus Christ. I was in Miami in his favorite fucking greasy spoon spot down there. Oh, he's out too? Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. I was sitting there with this guy, John Cardillo, who does a radio show on iHeartRadio down there out of Fort Lauderdale.

He and I, he's a retired cop, and he's a great host on the show, and we're talking about maybe doing something together, too, as well. Wow. The Good Cop, Bad Cop show. That sounds like a great idea. I'll be fucking pissed. First of all, if you don't have a podcast, there's a fucking crime being committed right now.

I don't know how to do one. It's fucking easy as shit. Jamie will tell you. It's easy. I don't know. He's sweating over there. Well, this is a way more complex setup than anybody really needs. I mean, we only do it this way because it's kind of fun to have video of it.

Are we live streaming? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are we live right now? Yeah, we're live right now. How's my hair look? You look great. How's mine look? Wonderful.

It's easy. I wish I'd done this when I was 20. But the point is, like, all you need is a little MP3 recorder. If we had a little recorder that's, like, the size of a cell phone like this, like, I've done a bunch of them. Almost the size of Kenny's recorder. Well, no. He wishes he had something this small back then.

But I've done a few of them just with my iPhone. We just set it down on the table, and the microphones in these things are really good. Yeah. You could do it, and then you upload it. It doesn't, it and then you upload it. It's fucking easy as shit. Yeah, but I need someone like you to feed off of. I'm not, you know.

Yeah, but you just get it, get it. You just find somebody. Just find somebody in the street. I'm telling you. I should get one of the guys that I shook down.

You could do that. Funny story, I'm at one of the premieres and I did a lot of those. That's a great idea, actually. I'm at a premiere and I see these guys come walking up, and they look fucking, they look a little haggard, you know?

And they're looking at me with that, like, sheepish, like, look. I'm like, you know, I'm like a semi-star of the thing, so I got to look all proper and everything and look, you know, all everdite. And up comes these guys. They look like they're from the street, you know? Right. So they got their hats on sideways, half their teeth are missing, and the guy sticks his hand out and he goes, Mike, I like they're from the street you know right so they got their hats on sideways half their teeth are missing

and the guy sticks his hand out and he goes Mike I go yeah who are you he goes I used to hang out

on Pickett and fucking Pickett and Norwood or Pickett and not Norwood because Norwood doesn't mean it

but Pickett and Crescent and Pickett and Chestnut and I'm like okay he goes yeah you used to

shake me down like oh really he goes but we both made it like it was like almost a fucking initial I'm like, okay. He goes, yeah, you used to shake me down. I'm like, oh, really? He goes, but we both made it. It was almost a fucking initial bond that you couldn't imagine. In other words, I did my bid. Whatever he did, 30 fucking years later, he's shaking my hand at a movie premiere thing. He was like, we're proud of you? I don't know if that makes sense.

We're proud of you. You lived through it. that makes sense. But we're proud of you. You lived through it. Look at us. Only like 10 people lived through it. Those three and me and a couple other people. So in a sense, well, you're both survivors in a sense. Right. And there was respect.

Yeah. There was respect. It was nice to see. That's bizarre, right? I tell you, a couple cops came up to me. They really didn't like it. But they came up and hugged me and said, hey, man, you made it. Go on with your life.

Which really, to me, I have to be honest with you, you're still a cop in your heart. You're a fighter. You're a fighter in your heart. You know that. It's respect. What a strained relationship between you and the other cops. Well, you give up your whole community. You fuck up like I did.

And my whole family is involved in it. The police department, the fire cops. Well, you give up your whole community. You know, when you fuck up like I did. And my whole family is involved in it. The police department, fire department. You destroyed your relationship with that whole community. And that's how you grew up. So I basically destroyed every fabric of my... of who I am, you know? But then again, they have to watch that documentary and be fucking entertained. They loved it.

I've had people come to me... No, listen. It was back then. Yeah. So now they know. And they know who I am as a human being. I really mean good. I don't always do good,

but I do mean well. Right. Well, like I said, if I was 23 years old and I was living where you're living and doing that job, I probably would have been

right there with you. I probably would have. You're one in a thousand that said the same exact words. So is it some comfort? Maybe it is. There's some comfort in that. You know, I used to have this different look about people. I used to say, well, you know, you're responsible for your own actions, which in a sense you absolutely are. But there's also this concept that all of your own actions and whoever you are, this concept that all of your own actions and whoever you are in a lot of ways are determined by your environment by how you grew up by what situation you

find yourself in by the circumstances you find yourself in in that situation yeah and there's a there's a lot going on there and then there's the fun there was a lot that's a fucking problem say I have to say that's what I was watching that document I was like this guy looks like he's having a great fucking problem I have to say When I was watching that documentary I was like this guy looks like he's having a great fucking time I don't know if that's a good thing It's not a good thing But here's the thing One of the things you alluded to

Who's bringing the fucking drugs into that community Who's bringing the drugs into the country And I hate to go all crazy conspiracy theory But the reality is There were a bunch of rogue agents. CIA agents were bringing it in. A bunch of rogue agents. With Ali North's crew. Yeah, Ali North's crew, the fucking...

The MENA airport out of Arkansas, with Bill Clinton's family. He was involved. I was in jail with his cousin. Yeah, who was the guy that got killed? Barry Seals. Barry Seals was the pilot. There's all these

photographs of him with all these Colombian drug lords and this guy, he was murdered on his way to testify. He had George Bush's phone number

in his fucking pocket when he was killed. This is, there's a lot of fucking shit going on with this. There's so much money involved in drugs.

That's why I'm for total legalization, decriminalization of all narcotics, everything. Because you make criminals out of people that are generally not criminals. Yes. There's just a lot of money. I mean, a guy goes to school, becomes a stockbroker. He finds out that the real money isn't being criminal. Instead of making his $60,000, $70,000, or $100,000, he wants to make $6 that the real money isn't being a criminal. Instead of making his 60, 70, or 100,000, he wants to make 6 million, so he has to be

a criminal. So, that's a choice he made though. He made that choice, but being exposed to the opportunity, people find out who they really can become. Yes. Or, I like to say, you're not what you've done. It's what you've become afterwards, though. Like someone hurt somebody in a moment of rage or something, or inadvertently does something, or they go out of their way to do something,

because for whatever the deriving reasons are. So they're forever defined by that act. Yes. But that's not necessarily who someone is. Well, people love to forever define people by that act. Yes. But that's not necessarily who someone is. Well, people love to forever define people by that act because they, in some way, are very happy it's not them. Right. And so they want to say, you're a piece of shit forever.

I'll write you off forever. How many people did what I did, got away with it, and are throwing fucking stones at me? A lot. Okay. I'm sure. Listen, go back into the histories from between, let's go, 85 to 95. Every single, call it ghetto precinct, because that's what it's called in the police world. Every single ghetto precinct had a scandal very similar to mine, except maybe not to the

depth, like you had initially said, like when I really got into the paying and straight out dealing with the guys. Well, let's be honest. You're an all-star. You're an all-star in the world of corruption. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. It's what it's like. There's guys that take it to the next level. I mean, not everybody can be Ronda Rousey. You know what I'm saying? Not everybody can be John Jones.

You had her last night on TV. Guys take it to the next level, and you took it to the next level in the world of police corruption. My mother and my children are quite proud of that. But you know what I'm saying? I mean, whenever you have any sort of an act, whether it's a guy who's a marijuana dealer or a guy who's a fucking bow hunter, you're going to have people that just take it to the ultimate. They take it to the furthest extreme, and that's what you did as a corrupt cop. I just found

ways to continue to get better. So like, when you say a guy like Serpico, like you think he's a piece of shit, or you think he's a... Well, you know what, I have nothing personal against him. I know, but you understand that... I wouldn't hang out with him for any period of time. But you kind of dabbled in that when you

turned on the guy with the gold chains. I found out that it wasn't good. Right. Right. It quickly went back to being a criminal. One, it paid better. And two, it was a lot more fun. Now, when you go away, okay, and you're in that, what prison did you go to?

I was in several. I started out in MCC, New York. I did two years there waiting to be sentenced. So that's a state? It's all federal. All federal. I was federal. And it's not the camp that you think it is, by the way. And then's a state? All federal. All federal. I was federal. And it's not the camp that you think it is, by the way.

And then I was sent out to Mariana, Florida. That's nice weather. Well, it was 105 in the summer. Did you get to go outside? Oh, yeah. No, what happened was I was in isolation for nine months. Nine months? In total isolation in MCC, New York.

What is that like? It's the worst thing in the world. It's total deprivation, sensory deprivation, everythingvation everything's lights on all the time uh not always but depending upon the location you're at sometimes they keep a light on so that they can see you you know wow so yeah so but what does it feel like the worst thing is the worst thing about being in isolation is your loss of um interpersonal skills which i i don't know if I have any anyway, but just when you pass people, like, in a physical manner, you don't know whether they're going to stab you

or you should stab them, you should hug them, you should shake their hand. It's total... It's hard to explain, but it's like that physical presence of another person next to you in your space. I mean, you're a fighter. You're a cop. Someone gets in a certain space,

you need to protect yourself. Right. Well, being a convict slash inmate slash prisoner, when someone steps into your personal space, of course, you need to check them. But when you're in isolation, you don't know what it is. Your personal space becomes whatever you can grasp.

Right. Whatever you can control. So when I was first, example was my first past somebody, we had a room, let's say the size of your studio here. And he was out on the floor and I was out on the floor at the same time, which is very odd in my situation because I wasn't around anybody. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to respond to his presence in my world. And he was another guy that was also in solitary? For a short period of time.

He just got in trouble for something. But at that point, I was probably in, at that moment, probably five or six months. So five or six months with no contact except when they feed you? Right. And when they feed you, they talk to you? No, they throw the food through a slot and you go. No one says anything to you?

Very little. Very little interaction. How are you today? That's it. I you? Very little. Very little interaction. How are you today? You know, I'm good. Great. I just finished another book. So that's the entire extent of your human interaction for nine months? Essentially, yes. You do get visits once a week or something like that for an hour with your family members. Wow. You know, that's, you know, it's a little different because, you know, it's a little different because, you know,

it's a warm thing, you know, but people that are criminals and convicts in the same, you're not really the touchy-lovey-feely type thing. Right, right, right. So you don't know how to respond, you know.

Yeah, I would imagine, like, didn't Bradley Manning, I think he was in for like two years plus before he became Chelsea Manning, right? Two years plus solitary, no interaction with anyone, and I believe no clothes because they were worried about him killing himself.

Killing himself. Yeah. Or herself. I don't know. When does it transition? When do you officially say him or her? I don't know. Either way.

But, like, I've heard it argued that, like, you go insane. Like, if you leave someone alone for two or three years and there's no interaction at all with other people, you might as well just fucking shoot. Yeah, I saw guys used to sleep underneath their bed, put the mattress on top of their bed and sleep underneath it. Underneath the bed would hang off the wall or something. I don't know. I didn't want to ask them.

Wow. It was just like that's what their life became. You become insane. Pappy Mason is one of the guys that, he killed a cop and was responsible for the killing of Eddie Burns, I think. One of the officers that was executed. And he used to sleep under his bed. It was part of the fact that he wanted to be,

known to be a psycho rather than be responsible for what he did. Oh, so he was doing things like. Yeah, but then it became him. Ooh. Horrible. And his dreads were fucking like 12 feet long. His life became whatever.

I have no sympathy for what he did. But just people, human beings in general, that's what happens when they start to go on the other side of that. Well, the thing about the Bradley Manning case is even more fucked up is because all he did was expose crime. I mean, that was the guy who gave away the WikiLeaks documents. Okay. And he gave it to Julian Assange.

Now they're both fucked. Julian Assange is stuck in a fucking embassy in London. He can't move. They just, recently, I think in the last couple days,

they got rid of his 24-hour guards. He had guards outside the gate making sure he didn't bolt. And now they're like, eh, fuck the guys. He stays. He's done. Where's he gonna go? He's stuck they're like, yeah, fuck it. He's stoned. He's done. Where's he going to go?

He's stuck in this, I think the Ecuador embassy. And so he's fucked there. And then Chelsea Manning is fucked in jail forever. And they're never going to let her out now. And that's it.

And it's all exposing crime, which is even more fucked up because Julian Assange is not a criminal. Bradley Manning is not a criminal other than, you know, the crime of exposing government corruption and documents. So I'll give you an interesting detail. One of the hundreds of stories, my boys, they do a shakedown. They hit, they hit, they robbed this bodega, which is why Chicky and Walter become my buddy. I mentioned it briefly before.

So they're out on bail walt is living in my house and tromboli one of the uh internal affairs detectives is constantly at my house like surveilling my house and right and walter uh chicky's out on bail getting ready to do a little nine month bid walter's getting ready to go upstate for two and a half years because he's like he was on duty was on duty. He was the police officer that was still on the job. And so I find out that they're getting ready to go to trial now. They're all putting themselves, this is prior to their pleas, they're getting ready to go to trial. So I get in touch with Barron.

And I tell Barron, tell the owner of the bodega that he needs to leave the country right away because trial's coming up in a week. So Barron reaches out and tells the guy that, you know, the cops stopped by my office today and said, you guys got to leave the country. You know, you got to leave the country. And he says, you know, you got to leave because things can get bad if you don't leave the country. You got to leave the country. And he says, you know, you got to leave. Because things can get bad if you don't leave the country. So the guy leaves the country immediately. I get a phone call from one of the guys, whether it was Walter or Chickie. He says, the fucking trial's been, I don't know.

The trial's been postponed. I said, okay, good. I don't know the details, but I know he's gone. I had him okay, good. I don't know the details, but I know he's gone. I had him leave the country. So about eight or ten months later, the case is ready to fall apart. Internal Affairs goes and arrests this guy's wife or sister. She's working in some bookie spot, one of those bodegas that sells numbers and they don't really sell food.

And they arrest his wife and tell him they're going to deport her and keep her kids and put them in BCW, one of those Bureau of Child Welfare. So she, well, call your brother and tell him to get back here. I can't come back. They're going to have me killed. So he comes back under protection, and the trial goes forward. But the fact is that what I'm getting at what i'm telling you is that's what you can actually do when you're a cop if you really don't want something to happen you could actually have that kind of control over a situation well because

i mean it wasn't them who did it right it was us who did it we had this guy leave the country so these are the stories that the book can lay out, or even if the movie takes a spin in that direction. I mean, there's really some intense shit that we were able to do. I mean, if a guy put a complaint in against us, we'd go to his house. You know, if you wanted to complain that the cops treated me unfairly or something like that. Really?

You know, you've got to realize what you were dealing with. Well, that kind of shit goes on to this day. That kind of shit. I'm not on the job. Subtle versions of that. Yeah. I'm not looking to disparage anybody here. I'm just telling you what we were able to do back then.

In order to keep our moving the ball forward. Right. You know, that's the way you could do things. You know, if a guy put up what they call the civilian complaint in against let's say yourself and you were my either my buddy one of my co-workers you're not gonna go to the guy's house and you know and say anything but you might have your friends sit in front of his house for a week and just freak him out yeah you don't have to do anything right I think it's enough it's pretty it's pretty clear how we did

that to cello the the the kingpin drug dealer. And that's when he tried to threaten to kill me. Remember from the movie, he put a hit on me because I sat in front of his bodega because he shorted us $700. I sat in front of his bodega for a week, probably. And then he notified Baron that he put a hit out on me. I don't know if that was part of the fluff,

or the reality is, so Baron called me in, he says, there's a hit on you. So that's when I went and I found him the next day, and day one, whatever it was, and pulled him over and confronted him in the street. And he called a hit off, and got my 700 bucks, too, which was a nice day. Kenny says I never gave him the 350.

He's got to be full of shit. I mean, he wasn't there, like said i'm not i don't remember you know wow um now when you go away okay you do your nine months in solitary right why did they put you in solitary initially cop because you're a cop just to protect you yeah so once you get out of solitary yeah now you're in with everybody else and And what is that like? That's a little... Yeah. A little, you know, should I go back? Solitary or not?

Is this maximum security? Yes. Maximum? High security. So you're dealing with... Everybody. I was in there with the guys. You name their names, I was there with them.

Gotti's crew was on the 11th floor. I was on the 9th floor, the 7th floor, you know, in MCC. So, I mean, Gott, he's for whatever. But all the gangbangers were in there that were around that time, you know. In fact, some of my good buddies were cop impersonators, you know. They were one of those gangs that was going out, you know, basically executing. I wasn't executing anybody, but they were, you know. They were going in as cops and executing the drug dealers and taking their money. So they were going in with lights, the whole deal?

Yeah. Badges. Badges, coats, bulletproof vests, 38 Smith & Wessons. Killing people. Yeah, killing people and taking their drugs. I mean, that was the 80s. And it's Brooklyn and Manhattan and the Bronx. And when you're in there and you go from solitary to...

Just general population. General population. You know, you've got to watch your back every step of the way. What is that like? You know, it's like when I was driving to work wondering if I was getting arrested every day. What was the first day like? The first day like they let you out and now all of a sudden, do you have to share a cell with somebody? Yeah.

Who's the guy? I can't recall. You don't know who you share the cell with? There was hundreds. Hundreds of guys? Yeah. Just different guys all the time? Different guys all the time. You don't know who you shared a cell with? There was hundreds. Hundreds of guys? Yeah. Just different guys all the time? Different guys all the time.

You're in transition. In MCC New York, you're in transition. I ended up sharing a cell with Patsy Conte one time, who was one of the wise guys. They try to keep the white guys with the white guys because prison's very racially divisive. Black guys with black guys, white guys with white guys. That's how it was.

Spanish guys with Spanish guys. That's how it was. Spanish guys with Spanish guys. That's just the way prison is. Now, do you have to align yourself with particular groups or anything while you're in there? Listen, no one's going to align themselves with me. But the happen chance is that when you're in MCC, New York, it's like 60% black guys, 35%

Hispanic guys, 2% Asian and 1% white. I think you're missing some numbers. For God's sakes. Don't hold me to the... Let me get my pen out. Hold on. So it was, yeah.

And so, like, even if you were a wise guy in the street, you saw a white face, you know. Right. You talked, whether you liked each other or not, you know. I understand. And, you know, being I was young and still a little, you know, I was in pretty good shape at this point. Now we're down about a year or so and doing probably, you know, 600, 800 push-ups, 1,000 push-ups a day, chin-ups, dips, backbends, you know, the whole bit.

Right, right. You know, now I'm at least in great shape. I'm doing the bar. I'm doing 160 pull-ups, you know, frontwards, backwards. And people see you moving around. They're like, okay, you know, thiswards, backwards. And people see you moving around. They're like, okay, you know, this isn't an easy trip. Right, right, right. You know, no matter what you think of me,

I was a cop or not. It wasn't an easy ride. Right. And then, you know, all the older wise guys, you know, they're feeble guys, most of them. When they finally get arrested, most of them are banged up anyway. They're 65, 70, you know.

What happens to those guys when they get in? Well, they align themselves with a young guy who does most of their bidding, and hopefully you don't have to take a knife for one of them or something like that but you know look they got money when you got money in prison it's like money in the street you know and when you're in okay so when you go from being in solitary to general population like what are your days like what it well there's different worlds you know mcc new york you're in a jail. So you're really just inside a building.

And some people have jobs. Some people don't. Jobs meaning they go to the kitchen, they cook, and they provide meals for the rest of the prison. I was in like an orderly. I had to clean a floor, something like that. And basically sat there and waited to get sentenced. It was horrible. You know, you sat inside a building.

You know, you come in. You look like a piece of paper. You're so white. You It was horrible. You know, you're sentenced by the building, you know, you come in, you look like a piece of paper. You're so white, you got no sun, you got no vitamin C or D or B or E or G,

whatever the fuck the vitamins are from the sun. You got none of them. And the food's horrible and you can't wait to get sentenced. Right.

Because you want to go out and live a life. Now, being a sentenced prisoner opposed to a prisoner in waiting, like a bride in waiting, you finally get out. So how long is this waiting period?

It was two years. So for two years. So nine months solitary. Inside a building, right. And then another year, 15 months, you're just in this jail waiting to be sentenced. Waiting to be sentenced. So finally you get sentenced. The sentence I get sent to, I get put on a Learjet.

It was like first class. Really? Yeah. I get put on a Learjet. It was like first class. Really? Yeah. I get taken from MCC New York in a limousine, a prison limousine,

over to Teterboro Airport where the federal jet is, the Learjet. Me and like two other people get on this jet, and they whisk us off to – Two people? Yeah. They whisk us off to Florida. We land in Jacksonville. We pick up some girl. I don't know. Then they whisk us west.

So this is how they transport prisoners? They put them in a federal jet? Yeah. In my case. In my case. Okay. Because I was leaving the region. Okay.

They have a big bus. Normally, they'll deposit you along the way, and then some people get moved around on different-sized jets. This happened to be a Lear, which is like a four or five passenger jet, which was nice. I'm like, a VIP. This is wonderful. This is great. I love this. They have peanuts? No, just nuts. Lots of nuts, if you like, but no peanuts. And so then they fly you?

Actually, there was a cute girl on the fucking plane with me. Really? A prisoner? A girl prisoner? Yeah. How'd that work out? I don't remember her name, but anyway, there was a cute girl on the fucking plane with me. I'm like, this is good. A prisoner? A girl prisoner? Yeah. How'd that work out? I don't remember her name. But anyway, she was cute. You have to look at something. Where's she going? She just elbowed me a little bit, you know?

Where's she going? I don't know. To a woman's prison in Tallahassee. What does she do? I don't know. We don't talk. You didn't ask her questions? Fuck no.

I'm not an interviewer. You seem like a talkative guy. I am, but I'm fucking trying to keep my world small. When you're a guy like me in prison, you don't open your mouth. You don't talk to anybody. You don't elicit a conversation with anybody. That had to be really difficult for you. Very.

I would imagine. Horrible. It was like pulling my tongue out and throwing it on the ground for fucking 12 years. So you're just doing this for survival purposes. You just stay in your own little world. Because you open yourself up. People want either in or to use things against you. Right.

You know, like in the referee world. But in this case, it's a microcosm. Right. You know, it's come back to you real quick, the way people use information against you. Wow. So I go from there. And then I end up in some small county jail, which I end up with one of the guys from Cocaine Cowboy who ends up dying. A couple of them did.

But this fella here is telling me, I got to get the fuck out of here. And I'm in a county jail, and there's a piece of barbed wire around this fence. And he's telling me, there's a guy in a tree, a treehouse. There's a guy in a treehouse with a shotgun. That's it. A shotgun? Yeah. That's it?

Well, it's security for this little county jail. But only a shotgun? Yeah. He's sitting up there with a shotgun. How far away is he? 60, 80 feet from the barbed wire only a shotgun? Yeah. He's sitting up there with a shotgun. How far away is he? 60, 80 feet from the barbed wire fence. Oh.

Yeah. They can kill you for 60, 80 feet. Yeah, he'll get you if he's not sleeping. I'm like, a shotgun?

But they're only making $10,000, $12,000 a year. Oh. So he's saying, hmm. And he's big money, cocaine cowboy guys. He's thinking

he could have some money sent to this guy's fucking, I don't know, his mother. Who the fuck knows? All you have to do is give the guy something that puts him out. Some chew. Some tobacco.

One of these cigars. Give him a pill that knocks him out. Like, tell him. You're going to give him a lot of money. He's not responsible. I'm going to dummy up your drink. And I'm going to jump. And no one's going to know how it happened.

You're going to wake up in a puddle of your own spit. We should have done time together. That's what I would have done. This is real simple here. Yeah, but you're 48. These guys are young. I mean, they weren't that young, but these guys, they were already fighting for their lives. When El Chapo, when that guy got out and he dug that hole a mile long underneath the-

They gave him a pill? No, but didn't you respect that? I respected that. I'm not even a criminal. What part? The fact that they had the fucking thought process involved in digging a hole. This is what they do every day.

I know, but I mean, still, I was like, I gotta respect that. Well, you had to know. The guy made a fucking mile-long tunnel with electricity and an electric bike. When you got that kind of money, you're getting out. Okay? And there's a lot of people getting paid, too, along the way. Apparently, he's got a $100 million bounty on Donald Trump.

Oh, really? Because Donald Trump talks shit about Mexicans too much. Yeah, whatever. Let's not talk politics here, because... It's not even political. Well, assassinations are political, too. But when guys want to get out, you know, and you all day, that's all you're thinking about. How the fuck do I get out?

They were digging out where I was, too. Did they? They caught them, yeah. Did they? Yeah, well, someone gives you up. Right. Because they want to go to a better place. you're thinking about how the fuck they were digging out where I was too but they caught them did they yeah well someone gives you up right because they want to go to a better place right

like let's say I end up in Mariana well let me tell you this is so I get off the bus and I'm like this is going to be fucking horrible

I got to do another now at this point another ten and a half years like this walking to a fucking place like this and it's hot it's fucking the middle

of the summer like July whatever it was and panhandle Florida it it's hot it's fucking the middle of the summer like i say july whatever it was and panhandle florida it's fucking hot it's 100. i get off the bus and i see this you know this fence and gate and shit and it looks okay you know and they bring you into r d it's like you're a package they bring you into r d they process you they give you the you if you ever see them on on tv they got the fucking bags. They got their bedroll. They got their bedroll in their hand. It has some of their clothes and shit.

And you're walking through this compound. And this guard opens up. Guard, whatever, heck. He opens up the port to this compound. And I say to myself, strike me dead. Now, I just came from a fucking hole in the wall for years, like two years. I've been looking at nothing but and and polish on the floor and he opens it up and i see a luscious fucking place i probably other than my vacations in the cayman islands this was the most picturesque

place i've ever seen like up close and in person now it doesn't matter it's two years i've been seeing cement so right i mean lush I mean, lush, flowers, colors, beautiful, grass, beautiful, cement, gorgeous, a big, beautiful chow hall with my name, with my name saying,

come and eat. You know, I haven't had a good meal in fucking forever. And the food was good? I was eating fucking hash. Right. The food's gonna be good no matter what I,

so I go like this. I go to myself. I go, this is go to myself this is paradise i swear to god i just finished saying it and the god goes welcome to paradise whoa like this like the thing we had this morning with the new coke and the old that's hilarious i'm going this i don't want to let him know that i agree wow i agree so when he's saying welcome to paradise is he with you or is he- No, because he knows where I just came from.

Right. You understand? And he knows that this is nice. It's a college campus with fences around it. But the inhabitants are not quite college people. The average sentence was, I think, 18 years when I worked in that place. And it was 300 and I want to say 40 somesome-odd men that were never going home, that I was now going to bunk with.

Those are the dangerous ones, right? You know what? They're the least dangerous. The one nothing to lose guys? Not the ones that are doing their time. Why are they the least dangerous? Well, because they just want to live their lives out. It's the young bucks that just want to live their lives out. You know, it's the young bucks

that, you know, that just want to make a name for themselves. And, you know, they don't see, they don't see the 10 years, 15 years from now they're going home.

They just see the same immediate gratification that got them there. Right. So, right now, I like your sneakers or I like your fucking soup. You know,

and I don't have any soup because my parents, I don't even know my parents. You know what I mean? So, I don't get the extras. You know, prison's about extras. You know? If you get I don't even know my parents. You know what I mean? So I don't get the extras. Prison's about extras. If you get extras in prison, you'll survive. So explain that to me.

Commissary. People live on a commissary in prison because it's like it's part of rebellion. No one wants to be beholden to the government for what they're going to give them. So when you go into prison, yeah, you get a good square meal. Food's okay. It's cooked For fucking 1800 men Right There's plenty of

They It's a control mechanism Okay Food is a control mechanism Exercise is a control mechanism And all the frills Are control mechanisms How do you control

A population Water Food Sex that they can't have So certain things Are control mechanisms Food and exercise In prison Is a control mechanism. So the way to control guys is to provide them with a good meal, you know, and you don't want to lose that

good fucking meal. So you're gonna be good. Because I just came from a place where I was eating shit out of a plastic container all day long. Now I get a plate with a knife and a fork. I can eat like a gentleman. You know, you start to feel like a human being again. But the problem is the guy next to you, you know, you don't want to take him home necessarily, you know, unless it's me. The guy next to you is not getting the same food? No, he's getting the same, and he wants that.

Right. So he wants to maintain the status quo. So if he's down there doing a life sentence, he's okay with it because he's accepted it. Right. It's the young guys that think that they want your food or they want to get over. The get over mentality. You have to let go of the get over mentality. Otherwise, you're going to live that fucking heavy life in prison.

The get over mentality, meaning you're always looking to get ahead a little bit. Right. A little scam, a little this. Yeah, scam a little, steal some eggs eggs sell them to this guy a lot of people send money home from prison so it turns into another rat race that you know when you say the commissary like what what do you what can you get at a commissary well one of the big things are stamps so you can use that to barter stamps currency stamps and tuna fish are currency in prison. So you could send letters?

You could send letters. So you have to have stamps to send a letter home? You can gamble. Gamble? Yeah. What kind of gambling? Well, sports. Usually it's sports gambling.

And then there's cards, you know. And there's cards or checkers or chess. You know, people gamble on anything. So can you watch games and stuff like that? Well, the unit I stayed in had five or six TVs. Really? In a common area, yeah. One had the rap station on. Really? In a common area, yeah.

One had the rap station on, one had the basketball all the time, and the other one had Spanish TV. So then you had CNN once in a while, which we saw the 9-11 attack,

and they all come out looking at me, Mike, did you see what happened? I'm like, yeah, okay, you know. They looked at you because you were a cop? Of course, I was from New York

and I was a cop. Oh, right, right. You know, all the staff and everybody came over. You know, it was a difficult fucking moment, to say the least. Yeah. Yeah. So I went through a lot of that stuff in prison. So in the commissary, you can get extra things.

Extras. You can get extra food? Extra food, yeah. What kind of food? Like I said, tuna fish, octopus. Octopus? Oh, yeah. Jesus.

Some places, yeah. So, you know, but you got to buy it. How much does it cost? Well, if you paid a dollar for a can of tuna in the street, it was $2.50 an air, that type of thing. Whatever the current rate is, you pay it a little bit more in prison. Right. And then if you're working in prison, you get very little money, right? You get very little money.

So the money from the outside is what you maintain. So guys that go to prison and have outside connections with family that would still help them support themselves become a commodity in prison. So, you know, you're a hustler in prison, so you like to take extra eggs and make some egg salad, let's say. Because guys work out all day long. That's what they do. They want to increase their protein. They want to stay in shape because they want to go home one day, you know. And so you learn to adjust your life in order that you have an end game.

Some kids only care about today, you know. And some of them don't go home because they end up getting in a fight or Some kids only cared about today, you know, and they sometimes don't go home because they end up getting in a fight, a stabbing, killed, whatever, you know. And then they get another bid because of that. They get another bid because of that, and there you go. So is that where you did most of your time

down there in Florida? I did five years plus in Mariana, Florida, and then I wanted to get closer to family, you know, because I was getting ready to be released. I had not, you know, in seven years. I'm anticipating release in about three or four years, which didn't turn out. And I lost a year when I got on a plane,

which is a legal argument that I made for the next five years and lost. But I wanted a year off down in Mariana, Florida for my drug program participation, but I had to go to court to get it. So when I got on the plane to come back to Devons, Massachusetts, where I served in Ayer, Mass. Are you familiar with that area of Massachusetts at all?

Where's Ayer? Ayer, it's near the W, Fort Devons. It's west of Boston, about 45 miles. Worcester? Worcester, yeah. Right, it's near Worcester, Mass. Anyway, so they had to open a new federal prison there. I wanted to get closer to my family, so I ended up getting on a plane.

You know, you request. You make a request. Right. Got on a plane. They fulfilled my request. I ended up in Devon, Massachusetts, and when I got off the plane, I lost a year off my sentence because I'm now in a different legal jurisdiction than the legal jurisdiction that I was in in Florida. So you have to do an extra year because of that? So I got the year put back onto my sentence because I now in a different legal jurisdiction than the legal jurisdiction that I was in in Florida

so you have to do an extra year because of that so I got the year put back onto my sentence that I earned off and I just wanted to fucking

I was on fucking medication it's like it's like can you just send me back they went no oh

yeah so I love the federal government so you had to do an extra year just to come to New York yeah because I wanted

to get closer to my family So they would get to know me as I get released You know, you want to get a closer bond with your family Make it easier for them to visit Make it easier for everybody Right Visiting, exactly And then, so it closed me another year

So I ended up in a fight over that Fist fight, whatever I lost my fucking mind And I ended up causing a hunger strike You caused a hunger strike? You went on a hunger strike? I organized one. It wasn't about it.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I couldn't do it. I can't go six hours without eating. I'm getting hungry right now. I helped organize a hunger strike. So you organized a hunger strike, but you didn't participate. Yeah, I participated for an hour. I got locked up for an hour.

You don't know. The stories are crazy. So I ended up in MCC, New York again, the place where I had just... Oh no. Back in the fucking hole over there, in isolation. Oh no. So I caused another hunger strike there. Oh God.

And that time they listened to us, and they shipped me out to McKee in Pennsylvania, and I did like three years there. I mean, it just gets tired just going through this shit. You know, and you live the life out there and, you know, I don't need any sympathy, by the way. Just, it is what it is, you know.

Yeah, no, I'm not giving you any sympathy. I'm just trying to think about what it was like. To add a year to someone's sentence, they actually called for an ambulance

after they told me. Do you want an ambulance? I'm like, I'm not sure. I was going down. Right, right. I don't know what happened. I can imagine.

It was like, you know, I fought for five years to get this fucking, actually four years to get this sentence reduced a year and now you gave it back to me in one day

because I got off a plane in your fucking state? I hate this fucking state. Send me back to Florida. No, you got, here's the good news, she says to me, hot bitch.

She goes, here's the good news. The good news is you got four years to fight us. Oof. I just got finished is you got four years to fight us. Oof. I just got finished fighting them for four years. Oh. And it cost so much to fight these cocksuckers. You have no idea.

I'm living on stamps. And the goodwill of people sending me money and some of the money that I earned in prison, you know? It's fucking horrible. Now, are you allowed to make money off of your case now? I did a lot of research, the people I'm involved with, and, you know,

unless there's a specific victim that was specifically out there, unless a guy says, I stole his kilo, you know, I don't know. What's he going to do? William William Gant. No, you'd have to prove

how many kilos you sold or didn't get paid. You know, so. So it's not like a violent crime. Like O.J. Simpson can't make money off of. Yes, yes. Right.

But the details are slightly different because you know I was a fuck you would call it but you know the people that researched for me said that there isn't the law that that some same law does not directly affect you yeah it would make sense you have to have a specific victimized right and then you profit off of that and that's what they're for their mission right right right that you victimized. Right. And then you profit off of that. Or for their misfortune. Right, right, right. That you caused. Right.

Yeah, so this is not that. Right. This is... I mean, the son of Sam executed people on Long Island, you know? In fact, the guy, the detective's name

is a distant cousin of mine, Timothy Dowd, who arrested him. Really? Yeah. That caught the son of Sam? Yeah. Oof.

Yeah, so, you know, my family's got the legacy on both sides, I guess. Pro-con. Yeah. Now, what is it like the first day you got out? You know, I thought you might ask that question. How come you're not?

Yeah. Well, the first day I got out, there's different outs, okay? You get released to a halfway house. So I was in McKeon, Pennsylvania now. I was finishing my bid, and my parents wanted to send a limousine to pick me up and welcome me home like a big shot, you know. Right. But not in a boisterous way,

just to show me love. Show me love, right? So I said, you know what, no. I want to take the bus home, the Greyhound. So I got on the Greyhound bus and I drove the Greyhound bus.

I didn't drive it. I was a passenger on a Greyhound bus to MCC, not MCC, the bus terminal in Manhattan. And my family was there waiting for me, you know, about 10, 15 of them were there. It was a passenger on a Greyhound bus to MCC, not MCC, the bus terminal in Manhattan. And my family was there waiting for me.

You know, about 10, 15 of them were there. It was a nice welcoming, but all I can do is say, I need a quarter. And they're like, what do you need a quarter for? I said, I need to fucking make a phone call. I said, anyone got a quarter? I need it right now. I'm panicking because I'm running late. And the halfway house, and I'm a rules follower sometimes, so I don't want to go back.

I need to notify the halfway house I'm going to be running late because the bus was late. So all of a sudden, people start handing me these things to talk on. What the fuck is that? Cell phones. What the fuck is that? They go, it's a phone. I go, well dial it for me. I never dialed.

I don't know what I'm doing. So you'd never seen a cell phone before? Never saw a cell phone before. Wow. Oh, that's not true. I saw the original cell phones. The brick. Yeah, the bricks. I was the original handler of the bricks. But now I had no idea. Did you have one of those things? No, but my drug dealers did. Oh, all those. They had those like the ones from Gordon Gekko and Wall Street. Yeah, they look like this. They were squared. And then they had the ones with the long cords. They could take them out and talk on them.

They had a suitcase carried around. They were my heroes back then. Can you imagine? I'm calling my house from my wife's home. What are you calling from? I go, you don't want to, the drug dealer's cell phone's right now. The guy's like, I said, do me a favor, erase that number when I finish talking to you. So you call the halfway house and now you have to live there for a while?

Now I got to live there, which is back in the ghetto. I'm back in the ghetto living in a halfway house, and I'm out about, I don't know, two or three days, and the news people are out front circling like fucking bees around honey or flies on shit. They're all over the place, and someone snaps a picture of a guy, puts it on the front page of the Daily News, and says, Dowd still walks like a cop. It wasn't me of a guy puts it on the front page of the Daily News and says, Dowd still walks like a cop. It wasn't me. You walk like a cop?

Yeah. What the fuck does that mean? Well, you know, we know. They know what they're saying. Twirling a baton? No. How does one walk like a cop?

I'm a white guy in the ghetto walking like I owned it. Oh. Yeah, so this guy was... Oh, interesting. But it wasn't even you. It wasn't me. It was somebody else.

So the guy sues and gets a half a million and I'm still broke. Really. So the guy sues and gets a half a million. I'm still broke. Really? Yeah. That guy sued and got a half a million dollars because he was walking like a cop. Yeah, well, they put his picture on the front page of the... Oh, that's hilarious.

And they tarnished his criminal image that said he was a rogue cop. He was only there for something else. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Yeah, so he had to deal with that. This is the Daily News or the Post? A program. What was it?

Which one? It was the Daily News. Yeah, well... Well, there you go. That's hilarious. Yeah, so he had to deal with that. This is the Daily News or the Post? A program. What was it? Which one? It was the Daily News. Yeah, well. There you go. There you go. Well, how's that? Nuff said? Well, people who don't know those tabloid newspapers in New York, those are hilarious

newspapers. The fucking covers are always very funny. Yeah, right. Not when your face is on it for fucking like six months. Yeah, well, I would imagine. Do you save any of those? No, but yes. I don't months. Yeah, well, I would imagine. Do you save any of those? No, but yes. Me, no.

I mean, I didn't want to have it in my property when I landed in a different institution. Like, oh, this is you. Let me just put these up on the wall. Yeah, some family members have like every one, I guess. Now, when you get out and you're in the halfway house, how long do you have to stay there? I want to go back to prison.

Really? Yeah. Because the halfway house is that bad? No, because I don't know what to do with it. So you're institutionalized? I'm done. Yeah. I'm cooked.

I'm cooked. That's what they always say. I'm cooked. I don't know what to do or how to do it. I don't know how to walk across the street. And I'm afraid because if I walk across a don't walk sign, I'm standing there. Imagine standing in Brooklyn in front of a don't walk sign for like five minutes. And there's no fucking cars.

I'm standing there waiting for the don't walk sign to turn so they have their hand or their people. Because you just don't want to do anything stupid. I don't want to do anything wrong. Right. Because they're following me everywhere I go. Wow. I don't want the news people snapping a picture of me walking across against the don't walk sign. So the post guy comes up to me and says, Mike, I don't want to acknowledge him, but when I look, he goes,

I look at him I don't want to acknowledge him but when I look he goes can you just sign this affidavit for me that this is you that I'm about to take your picture of

I go do your fucking job and leave me alone please sign an affidavit sign an affidavit because the other guy just sued the fucking Daily News

that's hilarious hilarious that's hilarious so I'm taking a shower this is my epic moment my first shower in freedom I talk about this often because it's epic and I'm taking a shower. This is my epic moment. My first shower in freedom. I talk about this often because it's epic. And I'm looking out the window, and there's my brother's two kids.

I don't know these kids. I never met them. I'm in my mother's apartment upstairs, my mother's house upstairs, looking out. The shower has a window. I'm looking out, and I see these two little kids running across my brother's lawn next door. My brother was a cop, retired because of me. But he got a pension, thank God.

Anyway, it's another story. Played good hockey player because of me, but he got a pension. Anyway, it's another story. Played good hockey player, so that's why he got his pension. Anyway, so I see these two kids and I realize the loss that, you know, I mean, the whole world took place while I walked that track by myself, you know.

And my brother, who idolized me to no end, now has two kids, and I don't even know mine. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is fucking horrible. And now I've got to make a living. And the first thing I want to do is help those that I left behind, you know, yours truly included.

And I'm like, I don't think I can do this. And I'm in the fucking shower crying so hard that I don't know if I'm getting wet from the shower or my tears. And, like, I don't know if you've ever cried in your life. I'm a man. I can say it. Never. I don't cry. Okay. I've wept so hard. I wept so hard that I wanted to take a nap when I was done. It was just, like, shit just kept pouring out of my body.

Wow. My first shower in freedom was like I was getting all the poison of life. Because you've got to realize, at this time, I'm 44 years old. I have nothing. Zero. My whole life is a fucking zero at 44 years old. But you still have kids and you have your freedom now. I don't have anything.

But you're out. I have nothing. I don't have kids. Someone else has kids. I happen to be a guy that they heard about. I have nothing. It'd be easier for me to turn around and go back. Wow.

So you really wanted to go back? Of course, I didn't want to. You didn't want to, but it seemed like, wow. It just seemed like the easiest thing to do was to go back. And thank God, at that moment, I had good parents and solid family support and a couple of young kids that wanted to get to know me, you know, because I don't know what else to say. I mean, just it was like I didn't know what to do.

I had to go earn a living. I never had a fucking job in my life. I was a cop. So what did you do for a job after that? Because it's got to be hard to get a job. I still can't get a job. Do you want one? Well, you got one for me.

If I had one, I'd give it to you. Listen, I'm a good worker. I need a real podcast network. That's what I need. I need to actually have a network. Start giving guys like you shows. Yeah, I couldn't get a fucking job, but my brother was doing some construction,

and I mixed up with the construction industry for about four or five years, and I did pretty well. And that was in the boom time. So anybody who could hold a brush in their hand or a hammer in their hand got a job and they made a decent salary and I turned down some union office because I had family that runs one of the unions on and I turned it down because I needed money now I wanted to try to help now and so I did

what I could and and you know listen I put an ankle bracelet on me when I got home because I was banging one of the chicks from the halfway house. You're not supposed to do that, by the way. You're not supposed to? No. Why not? I don't, I don't. They own you?

Are you free or are you not free? No, because she's a convict, too. So, can't associate with convicts? Right. But you're sleeping in the house with them. Right. But you can't fuck them. Right. Can you can't associate with convicts? Right. But you're sleeping in the house with them? Right. But you can't fuck them? Right. Can you hug them? No.

No patronizing or matronizing or sexualizing any of them. So it was very difficult. I broke the rule from the day. I broke the first rule. So did you get in trouble for that? Yes. Breaking that rule? Eventually. What do they do? What do they say? I tried to get rid of her because she was a psycho. I found out. Oh.

Gee, how weird. Psycho, ex-con? That didn't even make sense. Didn't make sense. And I want to talk disparagingly about the dead, by the way. She pissed. Oh, what happened? Yeah, I think I had a liver or something. Anyway, but horrible.

Horrible death. But I had to get away from her, so I made a decision to go back to prison just to get away from her. Really? Yeah. And she threatened to call, and she did. She called my probation officer, and he came and put an ankle bracelet on me. He spared me prison. He put an ankle bracelet on me.

And then I got jammed up again with the ankle bracelet on because I said I was going to church, but I didn't. Where'd you go? I don't want to put it out there. Okay. But it wasn't bad. I was at someone's house. Right. I was getting laid.

I understand. They wouldn't let me leave my house. Finally, I got out. So you were under house house arrest is that what the yeah yes the price it does it keeps you within within a beacon of the machine yeah so I was willing to go back to prison to get rid of this relationship and I almost did yeah Jesus Christ so that was my entry entry into society so how much time do you have to spend doing this halfway house thing before you're free? Well, that's like, what it is, you go from halfway house to home confinement. And then after home confinement, you go on to supervised release.

Home confinement. So you're confined to your home for during the... During the hours of the, like, if you're not working, you're locked in your house, you know. Wow. Yeah. So they can call at any minute, any time. So you can't go to the movies? No, but you can ask for permission to go shopping and things of that nature, you know, and then come back in.

It's all, you're clocked. You're checked constantly on your time. I don't understand that. Like, why is that if you're free? If you're free and if you can go to the movies. Because you're not free. You're not free. You're not free yet.

You're still part of your sentence, which is why i said 12 and a half years not 11 years nine months because the last six months of my prison sentence was in the street wow and then from there you do five years of supervised release which is when she called up on me when i broke up with her you know and he was fucking pissed i mean how could you blame the guy you know i've been lying to him for like two three years now at this point when she fucking drops a dime on me that's pussy it's pussy that It's pussy. That's what I said. He says, well, I'm going to tell you.

He says, what are you going to do? I said, look, you're going to tell the judge that I fell in love? Come on. Yeah. She was the love judge. Judge Kimber Wood, the one who was all over the news. What happened to her? I don't know that story.

I don't want to talk bad about judges. I may see him again. Well, you don't have to talk bad. No, she got jammed up with a relationship. She was working in. And it was all over the news. And they disparaged her. Well, she should't have to talk bad. No, she got jammed up with a relationship she was working in. And it was all over the news. They disparaged her. Well, she should understand.

That's what I thought. Nope. She's not quite as understanding as you think. Hypocrites. How dare they. So then what do you eventually wind up doing for work? So I continue on in the construction field. And I can't remember what else I did. No, I continue on in the... field, and I can't remember.

No, I continue on in this. Oh, limousine driving. I ended up being a limousine driver. The job that Kenny actually got me fired from before I went to prison because I got a job driving a limousine for one hour but never drove a limo. Because I don't know. Did I tell this story? I'm about to get a job driving a limousine. So Kenny goes, where are you working?

Where are you working? Well, he's wearing a wire. I go, I'm starting driving a limo tomorrow. I'll have some decent pay. All the plans about leaving the country are off. Well, no one even fucking really knows the depth of this. This is why we're out on bail. So I go, good.

If I get a job driving a limo, I'll make $600, $800 a week for now. I got a lot of money coming in, rental incomes. I'm good. I had four homes and a condo on the ocean. And so he turns around and he says, where, where, where? I go, where? What do you fucking care where? He goes, well, in case I want a job.

So I go, I tell him, I don't know. It was in the fucking newspaper. It was in Deer Park somewhere. Boom. Next day I go to start the job. I'm on my way in. I just bought the last $300. I bought a suit, black suit. Guy goes, I go, I'm on my way. He says, I go to start the job. I'm on my way in. I just bought the last $300. I bought a suit, black suit.

Guy goes, I go, I'm on my way. I says, I haven't heard from you. You're supposed to call me and tell me what time to be at the shop. He goes, we got a problem. I go, what's the problem? He says, I got a visit. I go, what? He goes, I got a visit.

They're going to open my books and my taxes and bring me a new asshole if I give you a job here. I said, you got to be kidding me, motherfucker. I just spent my last $300 cash, because the government takes everything when they get you. So now I can't even get a job fucking doing that while I'm out on bail, and I wouldn't have had the desperado to leave the fucking country. So Kenny set that up. I don't know.

Allegedly. I don't know. Possibly. Probably. Probably. I'm sure.. Allegedly. I don't know. Possibly. Probably. Probably. I'm sure. Wow. So it wasn't just wearing a wire.

Come on. It was conspiring. It's just fucking ongoing. You know, he fucking walks around. He saved someone's life. Yeah, you fucking ruined mine. Wow. Probably saved it in a way, too.

Yeah, I'm not mad. Just keep it real. He saved my life in a way. No, you know what? Someone, the cops saved my life. you know what Someone The cops saved my life Right They locked me up Right

Wow I couldn't get a fucking package After that You're sitting on a gold mine though You are sitting on a gold mine These fucking stories Oh the stories are fucking ridiculous If you just write it

Can you write Can you type I can do a lot of things My shoulder hurts, though. Well, yeah, you keep doing this. You keep doing this twisting. What's going on with it? I got a fucking two-pinch.

A stinger in your neck? I got two-pinch, two vertebrae, what do you call these? Have you ever, do you know what spinal decompression is? I'm in treatment right now. What are they doing for you? I'm doing a physical therapy act. I've had some serious spinal shit, bulging discs and stuff. Yes, that's what I got.

Working out. Yeah. You can get rid of that. I've got rid of it 100%. I'm working on it right now. I'm working on it. Yeah. It's a process.

You just got to do it slow. Yeah. Spinal decompression is a big thing too, stretching. Like hanging by your neck and shit? Well, they have these things that you can actually set up. They're fairly cheap. You just set them up on a door. They hang off the back of the door like a little chain.

Actually, my friend Denny has one that he likes even better than that. It's inflated, actually, and you put it on your neck, and he's got some spinal issues too, and it actually just lifts. Takes the pressure. You inflate it. You pump it up, and it kind of like lifts up on your neck and stretches, because a lot of it is either injury or bad posture, and everything gets compressed, and it stays compressed, and the discs pop out. And what you've got to do is relieve some of that compression.

And one of the ways is these, I have this one, it's like a harness. I strap it under my chin, I Velcro it in place, and then I crank on it, click, click, and it pulls my neck. Click, click, and it pulls my neck. You're not nervous or afraid that you might overdo something? No, no, no. No, it's not that. Click, click, it pulls my neck. You're not nervous or afraid you might overdo something? No, no, no. No, it's not that. It's not painful.

Listen, to change the subject for a second, you're right, but I appreciate the medical advice, you know, because I'm in pain. But themikedow.com, people can get my, they can download the 7.5 from my website. And I might get 25 cents if they do that. Oh, do you get a cut of that? A little something. So it would be nice.

I'll definitely send people. I mean, I lost my job due to the documentary. What job was that? I was doing mechanical services in a location that I'm still in flux with them. Even when you're fucking describing a legit job, everything is... Well, the problem is... Well, you gotta understand something.

I lost the position because of my past. So if I put their specific location... Oh, I understand. No, I'm still trying to work something out with them right now. So they found out about your past? They knew about it when they hired me me but the documentary became so compelling and riveting so interesting and so detailed that you know probably some cop called up and said I don't want my wife working with this guy around right and fucking

CEO said find a way to get rid of them yeah well listen they're doing your favor I swear to God you're sitting on a fucking gold mine. These stories you have, and you have, I guarantee you probably have a fucking thousand of them. All your years in the job. Easily. Ten years. Ten years, five months. I did in the street. Yeah, you just need to sit down with somebody and write these out and then edit them and make the most compelling ones.

You could probably have a fucking 500-page book. Oh, 500. Yeah. I'm trying to cut it down. Yeah, that's, 500? Yeah. I'm trying to cut it down. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm trying to cut it down. But if you cut it down to the gems and just, you know, honest about all the fucking craziness and all the weird shit that's going on

in your head and the family and the pussy and the drugs and, God damn, it's a goldmine. I'll fucking buy it. I'll buy it in a goddamn heart rate. You know, my friend Joey Diaz Is a nut for crime books He's turned me on Like a fucking hundred crime books

He's always like Joe Rogan you gotta read This fucking book And it's like Do you have the kind of time to read Because today a lot of people don't That's good Well you get on planes too

Yeah Planes help That's a good time I just force myself A couple days a week To force myself to go to bed Right before I go to bed Sit down and read

That's good And that's You know that's what I used to bed, sit down and read something. That's good. And that's what I used to do in the joint. I read probably 400 or 500 books while I was away. So I try to expand my vocabulary. However, when you start talking police terms, your vocabulary narrows back to the vocabulary you use while you're doing your job. Yeah. Like, fuck you, motherfucker. Get over here and get down.

Right now, let me see your fucking hands. Right, right. And don't fucking move. Meanwhile, I want you to raise your hands. Well, the audio books are great, too. I love that because I'm always stuck in traffic. How do you like the cigar so far? They're very good.

They're really not bad, right? Yeah, I put it down after we're talking. Yeah, I know. It's hard. It's hard to keep it lit. It's rude. No, it's great. It was good, though.

It's a good cigar. It's a very solid cigar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny that it's got that guy's fucking face on it. Yeah, it was great. It was good, though. It's a good cigar. It's a very solid cigar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny that it's got that guy's fucking face on it with the unibrow and everything. The detail is really, really cool

because it has the street in there. You don't see it. It has the location of his drug spot in the fucking van on the cigar. Where can you buy these?

Well, we're working on them right now. We're putting them together. There's a big tobacco letter, they call it, in Dominican Republic who saw the documentary. Oh, that's hilarious. And Adam didn't know.

I said, Adam, do you have a relationship with this company? He says, yeah. I said, well, go tell them who the fuck you are. So he went and saw them. And they saw the documentary. And I think they listened to Artie's podcast with me or something. And they went, holy fuck, yes, we got a cigar for you. So he put his face on this fucking cigar. I think I'm going to get mine to say the 7.5 on it.

Oh, that's a good move. And Dowd maybe, you know. That's not bad. So you can, you know. Even just Dowd. Well. Dowd cigars. Now, this guy, Adam, is he stuck in? He can't come here. We can call him if you want to call him. I mean, he's dying to say

hello, but you know who's really more interesting who Walter yeah well Walter seemed interesting Walter's pretty fucking you want me to give him a call can we do that or no

well there's no need to do it now but listen this ain't the first podcast you and I are gonna do I'm sure we got many more things to talk about

and as more things come out and you start doing things I'll be happy to help you promote it well that'd be nice you'll have me back when the book comes out? Fuck yeah. When do you think that's going to...

Have you started? It's in flux right now. Because the thing is we've come to see a couple of publishers. Right now they're a little nervous. What the fuck is wrong with them? I don't know what to say. Listen, you pussies. I don't know what to say. He's done the time.

Shut the fuck up and write the book. People can't get behind a bad guy. Oh, my God. But you know what? I did bad things. I don't think I'm not bad of a guy. You know what I mean? I hope not, anyway.

I've known a lot of bad guys. I don't think you're a bad guy. No, thank you. I think you did bad shit. But like I said, I could have done that same shit. Yeah. I think people being honest. If you're honest about circumstantial situations that you find yourself into and poor decision making and being young and doing drugs and then also being involved in a heinous crime riddled situation.

Like your environment that you're in, you're going to these places, these ghettos, you're constantly around crime, you're constantly around drugs. crime you're constantly on drugs and I gotta imagine like as you detailed in the in the documentary the crime aspect of it slowly sort of started creeping in and building. I was young and impressionable you know when you see a 17 year old kid in a Jaguar with a gooseneck fucking equalizer he's the he's the bomb you know and he's got you know twenty five thirty thousand dollars in his pockets and he's got ropes and diamonds hanging on his neck. I'm like what the fuck yeah, and what am I doing here, right? Listen it's wrong Seem that wrong sometimes you remember the first piece of crime that you did while you were a cop

Like you never forget your first pussy Pussy like I like it's an object first First woman, excuse me, pardon me, people. First woman that you've had sexual relations with. Not with that one. Who's that? Not with that one. Monica. Monica Lewinsky.

I did not have sexual relations. He did one of these things with the thumb. I did not have... He did something. Fucker. He had cigars and everything in finger bent. He did something. Fucker. He had cigars and everything in it. He should have had one of these. He should have.

Well, that's another story of a rat, right? Not even her, the other chick. The ugly one. Remember the whole story? Oh, that one. Yeah, the blonde? No, Monica Lewinsky was friends with some old hag that ratted him out. No, the blonde was a different one.

Clinton was on a rampage. He's the last great American dick-slinging president. Yeah, yeah, because now you're not allowed. You're not allowed anymore. We lost what it meant to be. Do you think Putin's laughing at these fucking idiots? Oh, my God. Laughing.

Please, I don't want to get into it. Laughing. Ha, ha, ha. Yeah, checkmate. He gets head and then shoots the hooker and throws her off the top of the Kremlin. Perfect. And just laughs. No witness.

It doesn't even have to. It doesn't matter if it's a witness. He doesn't care. It doesn't matter. He doesn't even have to shoot them. They got nuclear poisoning drops for these people. Oh, they have all kinds of things. But do you remember, like, the first crime that you committed? The one I talk about often is, because I, listen, when you're a cop, if you're not doing what you're supposed to do by the book, you're on the edge of committing a crime every fucking day.

So every time you even let somebody off when they're supposed to be arrested. Yeah, you basically have committed a crime, you know, because you've used a discretion in an area where there was no discretion. Right. You know, so, you know, but the thing I talk about is when I took the money from the Hispanic kid, the Puerto Rican kid, in the movie, I talk about it. Yeah, what was that situation?

Well, he had what we called a Puerto Rican mystery at the time. Puerto Rican mystery? Yeah, I mean, listen, I love Puerto Ricans. They're my favorite people in the world. They're fun people. They're the best, you know.

They got the Remy. They got everything going on, the bodegas. I love them. They help me grow up. I love them. They're very friendly and family-orientedas I love them They help me grow up I love them They're very friendly And they ruin me at the same time

Family oriented They love them And they ruin me at the same time So what happened was There's this vet driving down In the ghetto When you see a vet in the ghetto You're gonna notice it right

I mean Look at me I put it in the lieutenant spot Cause I gotta be noticed But So this kid's got this vet And I pull him over And he's got nothing

I mean nothing No license plates. No insurance. I mean, no plates on the fucking car. Just driving it. So, but I noticed he had a thick wad of hundreds in the fanny pack back then, you know? I still wear one. How dare you say back then?

See that? Fuck yeah. Respect. Yours is dual. You know, it's got a zipper on it, too. Oh, you got the whole thing. I mean, I'll tell you something. Come on. I started wearing one again not too long ago. I wear one. I'm, it's got a zipper on there, too. Oh, you got the whole thing. Let me tell you something. Come on.

I started wearing one again not too long ago. I wear one. I'm married. I'm not trying to get any pussy. Yeah, you don't need to. You're not trying to get laid? There you go. You wear a fanny pack.

Good for you. Like a man. There you go. Even if I was trying to get laid. Any girl won't fuck you with a fanny pack, you don't want to fuck her. Good. That's what I think. It's too much work.

I don't need you. Yeah, I don't have to dress up for you. Get the fuck out of here. There you go. When I have to wear cologne next. No, don't do any cologne. Don't do the cologne. Fuck that.

Never. Headaches. Never. I get headaches. I wouldn't want to do it. So I pull the guy over. Have respect. I pull the guy over, and he goes, this is my, I got nothing.

But he's got Benjamins and Franklins in his fucking bag. Right. So I decide that he could buy us a nice lobster lunch, because, everybody eats lobster for lunch right I said so you know lobster lunch kid you know he goes yeah yeah I go yeah I said and leave it on the backseat got what you handed me nothing right right right I don't know if someone's first thing yeah it's the first thing so you thought that's right so you leave a couple bucks on the fucking backseat. I don't know if it was $100 or $200 or $100.

Well, there's no backseat in the Corvette. Yeah, but this was the backseat of the police car that I had him in. Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay. Oh, he was in the car. Yeah. Oh, I see.

He was like under arrest, basically. Okay. He's getting the car. And so he just takes a couple hundreds out of his pocket. Leaves it on the fucking seat. And I said, okay, you have a nice day. I don't ever want to see you again. You hear me? That's, I'm down, parent. I'm scared to death. How long had you been on the fucking seat and I said, okay, you have a nice day. I don't ever want to see you again, you hear me?

That's, I'm down pattern, I'm scared to death. How long have you been on the job at this point? About two years, year and a half. Wow, so for a year and a half. I was good as could be. Straight as an arrow. Six months in the academy. Six months in the academy, but that doesn't really count.

Yeah, a year in training. A year in training. So now I'm in East New York and I see money. Wow, so it's really only a couple months on the job. A couple in training. A year in training. So now I'm in East New York, and I see money. Wow. So it's really only a couple months on the job. A couple of months. Free. Free.

Actually under your own discretion. Right, because you've got to realize, I saw quite a bit go on in my training. Now, what did you see in your training? Well, I was confronted with a, this is an odd story. I was confronted with training officers. By the time I get to training, they had 3,600 cops graduate the academy the same day. Okay? Now, just think about that.

That's the size of the sixth largest police department in the country. And now we hit the street like a bunch of fucking cockroaches going everywhere. Right? And we don't know what the fuck we're doing. That's the last thing a cop knows what he's doing when he gets out of the academy is nothing. He has no clue. Okay? All he knows is it's like an accountant who graduates accounting school and says,

go check this guy's books. Oh, my God. Right. What the fuck are you doing? Actually doing it in practice. Yeah, now you're doing it. Right. You're like, okay. You know, one of the first things that happened to me, I walked out of Madison Square Garden.

It was graduation day. My father's there. My father's a retired fireman. He's standing there with me. We're walking down the street, and I'm wearing the dress blues. I'm sharp looking, pretty, young, haven't shaved yet. And some woman comes walking up to me, officer, officer. And I'm looking like this.

Where's the fucking officer? My father goes, that's you. Wow. I go, yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. She goes, do you know where the Empire State Building is? So I go, I'm trying to find the Empire State Building. I'm on 34th Street in Manhattan. Where's the Empire State Building is? So I go, I'm trying to find the Empire State Building. I'm on 34th Street in Manhattan.

Where's the Empire State Building? 34th Street in Manhattan, Fifth Avenue. It's two blocks straight in front of me, right? So I go, I'm looking around. I go, I'm going to stand it. Go down two blocks, make a left, right? Just make a left. That's what you tell people.

So my father goes, Mike, it's straight ahead. I go, what? Oh, yeah, go straight ahead up there. It's on your right. And then you look up. You see the spire at the top of the Empire State Building right there. So anyway, that was my first day, you know, of being a cop. I didn't know I was a cop.

I actually am one now. Right, now you're actually a cop. Now I am one. Now I realize the magnitude of this uniform you got on. People come to you. Right. Oh, shit. But what did you see?

I'm going to be serious. What did you see in the academy? In training. In training. It's past the academy What did you see in the academy In training In training It's past the academy Academy is a bunch of shit So In training

Now I do six months In the street By myself No one wants Cause they're training The other rookies first I was in the second tier Of training

So now I'm learning The street a little bit You know I'm learning how to get a donut You know whatever I gotta You're learning How to get a donut, you know, whatever. I got to throw it in. You're learning how to get a donut?

I'm learning how to get a donut, you know. But what's the, would you say hi? Because they give cops free food, right, in most places? Well,

they did. Legitimate establishments. Legitimate establishments, yeah, you know, but sometimes, some places do, some places didn't back then

and if they didn't, if they didn't, you didn't go back. I thought everybody did. Well, you would think it's not a crime, but it is. It's a crime?

It's a fucking crime. What? Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. Wait a minute. So that's what I'm saying. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That's what I'm saying.

It's a crime to give cops a free meal? It's a crime. That's wrong. Yeah. That's wrong. That's fucked up. You could give your construction worker a free fucking meal. What about a fireman?

Can you give a fireman a free meal? Same thing. That's a crime? Crime. Whoa. But they cook for themselves nice. They cook a fireman? Can you give a fireman a free meal? Same thing. That's a crime? Crime. Whoa. But they cook for themselves nice. They cook a nice meal on their firehouse,

which I end up going to them quite a bit. But anyway, so now I'm committing crimes. No. Now you're wandering around trying to get donuts. Right.

I'm getting donuts and I'm running to radio calls. You get to see cops running in uniform. It's a little silly. Right. Because you're walking the I'm like running to like radio calls. You ever see like cops running in uniform? You know, it's like a little silly. Right. Because you're walking the beat.

Because you're walking the beat, you know. Right. But you're a rookie. 1054, which is an aided case. You know, someone's got, you know, a hernia, whatever. You know, where, location. You don't know what the fuck it is. You know, you start running. You know, four blocks later, you see the patrol car sitting there.

And they're like, kid, you don't fucking run to these things. That's what I think a patrol car's for. Okay, we just wanted to help out. I want to see something. I'm standing on Queens Boulevard, 80 mile an hour wind, blowing my skirt up all day long. I want to see something. You're waiting to see some action.

Something, right. So anyway, this goes on for six months. So finally my first tour in a car I get with these two veteran detectives who have 22 years on the job each. And the precinct that I was in had just finished their scandal in the newspaper. It was called the 110 Sargent's Club, who my neighbor actually was involved in. He went to jail. But anyway, so get right to the meat of it.

So he says to me, this veteran, he goes, you know, the last guy. Don't ask me how this conversation started. He goes, the last guy that's connected with this scandal, he fell over a railing on the fifth floor during a Christmas party in the snow. And he died. I said, well, what do you mean? They go, what it is is he was wrecked. He told on the cops in the 110 precinct, and he fell over the top of the railing.

I said, how do you fall over the top of a fucking railing? Right, you're being... It's a four-foot wrought iron railing. How do you go over the top of it? Right. He just did. He just managed to. Yeah, so he...

I don't know if they considered it a suicide or accidental death, but it was not a homicide. So they told me, that's what happens when you turn in another cop. So I said, okay, I'm on the job now, a little less than a year, six months in the academy, six months chasing people around, I didn't know what I was doing, eating donuts, and now I'm being

told by veteran cops that that's what happens if you tell on a cop. That they murder people. Well, that things can happen. Right. Mysterious. You can that things can happen. Right. Mysterious. You can mysteriously get injured. It doesn't seem that mysterious.

How old are you now? 48. Okay. Back then? It was pretty mysterious. Back then, I was scared to ask what happened to him. Okay? I'm good.

But I think I put the dots together. Yes, I bet you did. Don't tell on a cop. Right. So right away, you're like, okay. That's done. And then within a week or two, I see him robbing fucking cocaine from spots I wasn't allowed. Same guys? Same crew, not them.

Same crew. But same... Right. So you're seeing right away... It was in Corona, Elmhurst, Jackson Heights, which is called the cocaine capital of New York. Actually, the world at the time was more than Miami because it was where the...

It was called Little Columbia. It was where all the major Colombian cartels were shipping their cocaine to Jackson Heights and Corona and it was being shipped out around the whole metropolitan area from there. And it was huge. Because they had the airports there. They're fucking Kennedy and LaGuardia.

They ran them. They ran all the fucking transportation in and out of those locations. So they would get jobs or get people that would get jobs doing that? Pilots. Baggage handlers. Baggage handlers.

They were fucking... Wow. It was like a free-for-all. Wow. So I'm working in this low-profile precinct, but that's what really was going on in there.

Right. And anyway, what else was there to say about it? So you're right away, you're seeing crime. So I'm exposed to what's going on. Right away. Right away.

So you're being indoctrinated like almost instantaneously to all this shit. I'm seeing a lot of things that don't add up. Right. And now I leave there and I go to the ghetto. And I'm like, okay, I really should have stayed in fucking school. Because this doesn't look right. I got tears in my eyes.

I got Elvis in the ghetto playing on my God Strike Me Dead. I'm driving down Sutter Avenue. I just got graduated from fucking Queens to East New York. And there comes In the ghetto playing on my God Strike Me Dead. I'm driving down Sutter Avenue. I just got graduated from fucking Queens to East New York, and there comes In the Ghetto. It's the song, In the Ghetto. And the mama cries. And I got fucking tears in my eyes. Oh, my God, I should have stayed in school.

You're just hating your choice. You're just stuck. Scared. Scared. Scared. How long was it before you saw your first dead body? I had already seen that, because that guy actually fell from a roof. Oh, you saw the guy.

I'd seen plenty of dead bodies by that point. Probably half a dozen at that point, but. So you actually saw the guy who fell from the roof? No, no, no. I saw a guy that fell from a roof, though. I know what happens. Oh, a different one. Your head gets egg-shaped.

Yeah, so. He committed suicide. Oh, okay. But anyway, that was one of my first DOAs. But, so now you're in the ghetto, and you're there, and you're scared, and you're saying, I've got to sink or swim, you know? It's time. Either you're in the sink or you've got to swim.

And I had a choice to make, so I learned to swim quick, and I was probably in the precinct, you know, a day. I saw my first murder, and then— A day. Yeah, but it wasn't my case, so I really didn't handle it. A couple of stabbings, and then my first midnight shift, Jesus gets shot. Jesus gets shot in my first midnight shift. Jesus?

Jesus. What happened to him? The story goes like this. I'm working with my buddy Sal, nice guy. He's a little older than me, a little more mature. He's really ready for this action, but he's not an active guy. So he just wants to do he wants to do his shift and go home.

Great. But I'm not. I'm like, I want to be a cop. I want to do police work. Two guys work with a crowbar down the street or a tire iron

down the street. It's one o'clock and two o'clock in the morning. I'm like, Sal, that looks a little suspicious. He goes,

what? I go, the fucking guy's got a tire iron in his hand. A little suspicious. What do you think? Mike, do you really want to get

involved i go well that's what we're supposed to do we're the police supposed to ask some questions i mean a guy's got a tire on it's two in the morning what do you think all right so i'd make a u-turn go the wrong way on fulton street right by cleveland one of those streets cleveland and fulton and we're going back to check up on these guys. We drove past them. Now we're going back. And all of a sudden we pull up and there's a fucking scene in the middle of the street.

Guy's got a hole in his head. He's laying on the ground, obviously dead already. And I see a tire iron sitting right here like this, right? But he's here and the tire iron's over here about 15 feet away. And I go go what happened they go these two guys I said the tire iron they go yeah the tire irons right there it was them with the tire iron they ran so they shot this kid Jesus he probably went out and confronted them and said what are you guys doing in the neighborhood with a with iron. You know, stealing cars.

Stealing cars, tires and hubs, whatever they could get. Right. So he confronted them. They shot and killed him. And they took off in the wind. So I go to Sal. I go, you know what? Not for nothing.

I'm glad we didn't stop him first. But Jesus did. So that was my first actual shooting that I was the, what they call the first responding officer on the scene up. I was there about probably a week and a half. Wow. So I see my first murder in a week and a half. And this is before the crack. This is before the crack.

So this is just straight. This is straight. Violence. Violence. You know. Poverty. Ghetto. Poverty, ghetto.

Let's just kill this guy because he confronted me. It's crazy the idea that the poverty and the ghetto was already fucked up. The amazing thing was that it probably could have been us or they would have ran. Most people crazy the idea that the poverty in the ghetto was already fucked up. The amazing thing was that it probably could have been us or they would have ran. Most people try not to shoot it out with the police. Right.

But, you know, it's dark. He just could have... Right. And then I wouldn't have all this shit to talk about. Or more to talk about. Or more to talk about.

Yeah. Or who knows? Yeah. It's just amazing that the crack came along and accelerated what was already fucked up. Yeah, you know, I don't know what to say. It's just amazing that the crack came along and accelerated what was already fucked up. Yeah. You know, I don't know what to say. It was just it was amazing.

I'll tell you the one thing that was interesting during the crack thing when I took the cocaine from the Panamanian government in the. The Panamanian army was involved bringing a lot of cocaine with Noriega into our country. So back then it was the Kango hats. I don't know if you're familiar with the Kangos. Yeah, Kumo D. Remember the Kangos? All that. Well, the Kango hats, they were getting robbed from people.

So this one kid. People were stealing Kangos. They were fucking killing each other for the triple fat goose, right? The triple fat goose, the Nike earss, and the Kangol hats. So this kid robs this guy for his Kangol hat. Someone calls 911 on robbery suspect. He runs into a home over on, I think it was Van Sickland, one of those streets up there, right off Atlantic Avenue. And he had been up on, the kid came off the subway when the kid's standing there waiting for him, stole his Kangol at gunpoint and ran into his own home.

So we knock on the door where the kid lives. He won't open the fucking door. The kid, shut up. I ain't opening the door for you. So he goes back upstairs and hides the kid. That was a two-family home. The people downstairs opened the door to a common hallway because they see the police.

They don't want to fucking, they didn't do nothing wrong. They opened the door. They go upstairs. The place has the shoes. The fucking beads separate in each room. You ever see the beads that separate the rooms? Why do they do that? So people make noise when they go through the room?

No, it's sort of like you're supposed to know that this is two different rooms when they hang the beads. Oh, okay. You know, that's like, this is a door, but it's really not. You know, you can see through there pretty good. So this is how it was. That's how the ghetto is, you know. Or they hang a curtain in two different rooms. So we get inside and we see all the shoes and all the money that's spent in this place.

Something's up. So we grabbed a kid. The kid downstairs says, that's him. We can't find a gun. So we end up going downstairs in the basement. That's when you see me in the movie talk about the story where we found this fucking, call it a suitcase, a wooden suitcase. It was fucking like, it was like two-inch ply almost. That's how thick the suitcase was, wrapped in leather.

I couldn't get it open. I'm like, I'm a pretty fucking strong guy. I couldn't get it open. I'm trying to rip this thing open. I don't have the combination. There's no one standing there with the key. So finally one of my partners comes up with a hacksaw, and I start hacksawing this fucking thing open.

What am I worried about? I'm worried about the police. There's police all around. This is an armed robbery suspect. So there's a half a dozen cops milling in and out of the place. I helped my buddy. Watch the staircase, because we're down in the basement now. I cut this thing open, and when you finally get it open,

a plume of fucking cocaine comes flying out, and it smells like that bubblegum shit. It's delicious. So I'm like, holy shit, we hit pay dirt here. I'm trying to get the shit out. My partner goes, they're coming, they're coming get the shit out. He goes, my partner goes, they're coming, they're coming. Like, who? He goes, the owner.

I go, no. Fuck, never mind the police. The owner of the Coke is coming. Like, what do we do? Well, we can't lock him up. We're stealing his Coke, you know? Right. It's like the worst position to be in.

Finally, I'm walking out. I'm like, I put 15, 12 pounds on trying to get this Coke out of his house. And he's looking at me like, I stole something from out. I'm like, I put 15, 12 pounds on trying to get this coke out of his house. And he's looking at me like I stole something from him. I feel guilty. And I go, is that your stuff? He goes, no, no, not mine. I go, okay. See you later.

Gotta go. So I get in a patrol car. We go to the bodega. We weigh it on a fucking scale. How much? It was like a pound and a half, something like that. A pound and a half of cocaine is a lot of money, right? At that point, yeah.

It was like, we got 28,000 for it. We had 28, something like that. A pound and a half of cocaine is a lot of money, right? At that point, yeah, it was like we got $28,000 for it. So I bought a condo. That's when I bought the condo. At least you were investing. That's smart. That's smart. Yeah. It's very smart.

When you said you had four houses and a condo, I'm like, that's actually, for a guy doing blow robbing people. I wasn't doing blow at this time. At the time. Just selling it. Right. No. Stealing it. Or stealing it and then selling it.

Yeah, I mean, you were selling it, technically. Yeah, technically. Yeah, anytime you transfer cocaine, by the way, if you give me a half of a bowl right now, you've sold it. Really? Whether you take money for it or not. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Just remember that. Now I know. What about pot? Same thing with pot? Same thing. When you transfer something, you don't have to give money for it. It's still considered a sale. Wow.

Somebody tell that to Joey Diaz. Handles hands out fucking pot candies everywhere he goes. So you, this was like one of the first really big ones that you were involved with. Well, it was an exciting one, to say the least. I left there and went out to South Carolina and bought a condo on the ocean. So you would kind of like... But what happened was I went back to the location to get more because there was a lot more in there. But when I got there, there was a fucking limousine out front.

I swear to Christ. There's a limousine out front with two guys, one standing on each side with their full length trench coats on. Uh-oh. Standing there like this and looking right at us. Like, what are you going to do? And I went, let's get the fuck out of here. And I'm not... this is no yoke I was like okay I'm the police and I'm scared to death right now gotta go Jesus Christ and how long did I end up in the joint with Noriega that's all you were in the same place as

nor yes did you see him no he was in they gave him his own house is he still alive I think so they gave him his own house. Is he still alive? I think so. They gave him his own house? Yeah, they gave him a little warehouse. They got a little something going on with him? Who, me? No, him. Does the government have a little something going on with him? Oh, I can't answer to the government. They hook him up, give him some pussy, keep him out of shot.

I hope so. No stories. I hope so. He hasn't said anything, has he? Well, you always hope that. I mean, or you always hear that, rather. In the witness protection program, you always hope that. I mean, or you always hear that, rather. You know, like, from the movie Goodfellas. In the witness protection program,

you get pussy. Yeah? Yeah. I wasn't in it, but I know from guys that were that got kicked out of it. And they get pussy while they're in the program?

Yeah. Like, the government brings them in? Well, they bring them to a hotel to meet their family just for a reunion. Oh.

Oh, well, that's your family, though. But I mean, like, Noriega. Whatever. We're all family. They got him in a warehouse somewhere. I would imagine he's got his own little spot. Listen, like Noriega. Whatever, we're all family. They got him in a warehouse somewhere. I would imagine he's got his own little spot.

Listen, I can't speak. Imagine if you go there and it's all fucking plush carpet, fucking beautiful TVs. The story that everybody dreams of, wow, you had some bid, you know. Well, that's what everybody dreams of is like that Goodfellas scenario. Yeah, right. It's not like that. You've seen the movie where they're cooking steaks and slicing the garlic with a razor blade. We slice garlic with razor blades. Don't kid yourself. Really? Yeah, absolutely. And there was like that. I've seen the movie where they're cooking steaks and slicing the garlic with a razor blade. We slice garlic with razor blades.

Don't kid yourself. Really? Yeah, absolutely. And there is steak. Do you really get steak? Yeah, if you know the right people. Well, what else can you get when you're in there? Can you get girls?

You have to pay the guards, you know. Really? Yeah, but it's rare. But it happens. Usually it's the guards you're banging, female guards. Down here, right? That's a shame. That was out of state in New York.

In the feds, they're a little more classy. You got to send money to their private account. Oh, really? Yeah. But you can, it all can be happened. Well, anything can happen if you have the right number, right? Really? Like, how much you got to pay a guard to get some pussy?

I think the going rate was 500, but I'm not sure. 500 bucks. So you pay them 500 bucks and you can get laid. Yeah, you don't hand it to them. You have it sent. Right. That seems like it would be worth it I mean I'm just saying

of course it was worth it I would have doubled that after a certain amount of time it seems like a really good deal actually 500 bucks seems like a bargain yeah well these girls they were out in the country

they weren't like city girls so but female guards would often times mix it up with prisoners if I ever go back and fuck in prison this is not a good thing for me to say

well you're not going to go back in prison I'm just saying it, you're not going to go back in prison. I'm just saying it happens. You're not going to go back in prison. No, but you never know. But listen. The government can find ways.

But why would they find ways? We have ways. Listen, it's not going to happen. I know. Keep your... Keep your nose clean. Yeah, keep your nose clean and you'll be fine.

But that was what happened in upstate New York, right? Those guys that got out and the girl was supposed to wait for them. She was having a relationship with one of them and it happens.

It happens quite often. It's a difficult position to be in. You're a woman getting attention by men who are, most of them, in pretty good shape. They work out all day long. They're not going to do a sweet talk to you. You had a fight with your husband that day and now you're vulnerable like anything else. I think Tupac's got a song about that, doesn't he? The Vulnerable?

When I Get Free. Yeah. Let's just hand you a little piece of paper there. What's The Vulnerable? When I Get Free. Yeah, that's a, just hand you a little piece of paper there. What's going on? Your son's giving you notes? What's he saying? I don't know.

I should talk about that. What? That I made $38,000 with phone sex in prison. Did you really? Why would you not talk about that? Is that illegal?

No, it's just, I'm over it. Wait a minute. I spent the money. Did you make phone sex for like, calling a, like gay guys would call you out?

No, no, no, no. They don't call you. You call out. I didn't have a hotline in prison. No, I had a following of people that, you know. So you had a business. I had a woman that sent me books on dominatrix stuff. She wanted me to dominate her.

Master Slave books, Story of All. I don't know if you guys might be too old for that but it's not not old enough story of all was like an incredible book about a woman who liked to be sort of manipulated and whatnot in some kind of ways and so this woman sent me a bunch of books related to that and then i would have phone sex with her on the phone of course you know and she would give you money yeah i mean wow so a girl would pay you for phone sex? Yeah. That's pretty goddamn...

You can say that. That's pretty special. Yeah, they called it cell phones. I was in a cell on a phone. But back then, like, that's pretty rare, though, isn't it? That, like, a woman

would pay a guy for that? Like, they always say that men who are in jail for, like, murder and stuff like that, a lot of women will send them. Yeah, I had a lot of fans.

Mostly women. People are lonely. People are lonely. Even people in the free world are lonely. They need attention and affection from anybody. It wasn't really done in a manipulative way because I needed attention and affection, too.

Right, right, right. And it just so happened that she wanted me to do this. Right, right, right. So I got good at it. The guards would fight to get my, because they would all be listening. Because every conversation in prisons, I'd walk down the compound, they'd be looking at me like, okay, when are you going on tonight? So you were, like, going on like it was a performance.

Right, yeah like like us now they couldn't wait till i got on the phone i don't know it was sweating on the other end i don't know and they were listening the guards were listening yeah that's hilarious so so they got mad at me they used to make me send the money home you know you got too much money in your account you got to send it home the guards would make you send the money home because you can't have too much money in your account while you're incarcerated because then you could control people in the prison. Ah, well, how much can you keep in your account? I don't know. They made, I had 16,000 in there. They said, whoa, whoa, you got to fucking send some home. And it's all from this one lady? Yeah. Did you have other people that you were

doing this phone sex thing with? No, she was my main, well, she was the main, she was the payee. How much did you make her pay? I didn't make her, there was no salary. She just would send you donations? She had an escort business. She had an escort business? Yeah, I didn't want to talk about this. Why would she not want to talk about this?

She had an escort business in Orlando. She ends up getting arrested for it. While I'm on the phone with her having sex, she gets arrested. Like they broke into her house? Yeah. Oh, why? Why? Why? Why into her house? Yeah. Oh. Why? Why? Why?

Why? Because she's running an escort. So what? Right. Isn't there other shit to arrest people for? Well, the fact is that she ends up going to trial. She ends up going to trial and winning. Oh.

That's nice. So it's a great story for her, you know? Yeah. But my fucking donation stopped because she was going through hell, you know? Wow. So. That's crazy, though. It was interesting.

I would say so. Yeah. I would say at least interesting. You have a life. We all live a life. We all do things. And as it turns out, you can write books and movies about everybody's life. Everybody has...

Listen to me right now. Your life is way more fucked up than most people's lives. Fucked up? I thought it was interesting. It's very interesting, but a lot of fucked up things are interesting. Yeah. But your story, I mean, like you're saying, oh, everybody's got an interesting life.

You write a book about everybody. No, no. Listen, you wrote a book about, you know, Jamie's life. It'd be boring as fuck compared to yours. Oh, look, he's got a beautiful shirt on. Well, he's a great guy. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, no coke,

no phone sex business, no murders. He's never seen a dead body, I don't think. No. See? Everybody's got, you know what I'm saying? For real?

Yeah. See? Oh, shit. You've seen some shit. You just don't think you've seen some shit. You know what it is? You take things for granted.

Sure. When you live the life I lived. And even though, like, I'm lucky to be alive, you know, in many ways. You just, you know, like, you can. We haven't even discussed police work here. Barely. Well, the reason is because to me it was a normal day.

I handled 28 day jobs average a day. And I backed up on another 28. So the reality is, fucked up things I was involved in. I mean, I don't tell you the story. I'm going to tell you the story. I hope you guys enjoy this one. This isn't entertaining.

I laugh about it myself. And you know what? When I laugh, don't take it the wrong way because it's just crazy. I don't mean to demean anything or anyone. So I'm getting ready to go to the Bahamas. And so what I do is I change my shift from a 4 to 12 to a day shift so that after the day shift, I can go on my merry vacation instead of ending at 4 to 12 at night.

So I get assigned a prisoner in King County Hospital. And there's so many fucking stories in my head, it just spins. So now you realize I'm going on vacation at the end of this shift I'm going to the Bahamas or the Cayman Islands I don't know someplace

I think the Bahamas so I don't have now I have three days growth on my face now you think this is how a cop thinks I got three days growth on my face because I'm going away

you can't have growth on your face as a cop you've got to be clean shaven you can have a mustache but you've got to be clean shaven otherwise so when you turn out you've got to look tight so now I'm in this hospital three days growth on my face as a cop just be clean shaven you have a mustache but you gotta be clean shaven otherwise so when you turn out you gotta look tight so now i'm in this hospital three days

growth on my face and i'm drunk because i just did it all nighter because i did a 4-12 instead of going home i stayed at the precinct tapped down you know half a dozen or a dozen whatever and and now i'm back at the hospital guarding this prisoner i walk in the hospital and i take the handcuffs i said to the kid where's the fucking handcuffs he goes he's a rookie he goes what do you mean

I go he's a fucking prisoner he's got to be handcuffed well he wasn't handcuffed when I got here and I said so I take the handcuffs I said have a nice day

I put the cuffs on the guy and cuff him to his bed officer what are you doing I said for Christ's sake you're a fucking prisoner I got to sleep I got things to do here. I got to sleep, catch up,

because I'm going to the Bahamas tonight, tomorrow. Long story short, trying to shorten it, he goes, look, I got to take a piss. I got to go to the bathroom. She's waking me up now.

I'm sleeping already. He wakes me up. So I uncuff him. He goes to the bathroom. I fall back to sleep. I fall back to sleep. He's in the bathroom. Comes back, wakes me up. Officer, I'm back from the bathroom. I said, okay, He goes to the bathroom. I fall back to sleep. I fall back to sleep. He's in the bathroom. Comes back.

Wakes me up. Officer, I'm back from the bathroom. I said, okay, I go to put... Hey, you guys, I just woke you up. What are you putting the fucking handcuffs on me for? So I go... Listen, I... Anyway, he goes,

now he wants to take a shower. So I go, all right, go take your fucking shower. I'm sleeping. I said, wake me up when you come back. All of a sudden, about, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 minutes later, officer. Yeah. It's a nurse. Your, uh, your prison is gone. I go, Oh no. Now I didn't shave for three days. I'm drunk, hungover and I'm going to the Bahamas tomorrow. If you're making an arrest right now, you've got a problem.

Because you've got to process the arrest all the way through. I've got 17 hours overtime stuck in front of me. I'm not making this Bahamas trip. Oh, fuck. So I tried to put a description over the air of an escaped prisoner. Possibly escaped prisoner. Because I don't want to admit that the prisoner's escaped yet. Because I don't know if he is.

But he's just not here. I don't see him. He's gone. So if I put over the air an escaped prisoner, because I don't want to admit that the prisoner's escaped yet, because I don't know if he is, but he's just not here. I don't see him. He's gone. So if I put over the air an escaped prisoner, I'm already, I just cost myself 10 days vacation. Okay, that's a mandatory minimum by law in the police department. If you lose a prisoner, you lose 10 days vacation. Whoa. So now I'm not shaving.

All right? I can't, I'm running around fucking King County Hospital. I left my gun. The only thing I have on is my gun. Cops have a jacket with their badge on it. I took the jacket off. So all I have is a radio and a gun. I'm running around looking for a fucking prisoner. Cops pull up. They see a guy with a radio and a gun. They don't see a cop in uniform. They don't know who the fuck I am. I'm putting over there a possible escape prison. So the communication. Oh, no. Yeah, this communication. I don't get shot.

But the communications officer on the phone goes, says, can you call me? So I call her off, what they call, we call it central. So I call central. Central, what's your number? So I call her. She goes to me, officer, what is a possible escaped prisoner? It's either he's escaped or he's not. I go central. It's not something I want to put over the air that the fucking guy's not. I go, Central, it's not something I want

to put over the air that the fucking guy's gone. I said, he may be gone. He may be down the block. He may be sleeping. I can't find him. She goes, okay. She says, what's he wearing? He says, hospital garb. Green hospital garb. Okay. She puts over the air,

a possible escaped prisoner from Kings County Hospital wearing green hospital garb. Fifteen minutes later, 7-5 hospital post on the air. 6-7 Sergeant. Yeah, what's up, Sergeant? Yeah, we have a guy here. Could you come meet us at the front lobby of the King?

Now, Kings County Hospital, people don't know, is the size of a fucking whole neighborhood. It's huge. It's probably a mile this way, a mile't know, is the size of a fucking whole neighborhood. It's huge. It's probably a mile this way, a mile that way with 50 buildings in it. And it's like a guarded fence, but, you know, there's no guards and there's no real fence. It's just brick walls all over the place. So all of a sudden he comes walking in with the guy. The sergeant and his driver come walking in with the guy.

And all I can do is want to kill this fucking guy because I'm done. Now the duty captain has to come down. The duty captain's going to see that I haven't shaven, so now I'm upstairs trying to shave, and I'm bleeding now because they give you these safety razors. They don't cut anything but you. So I'm shaving my face with this safety razor.

I got blood all over me. I'm trying to wipe it up because as soon as he escaped, that's the first thing I did after I called for the back. I started shaving this beard on my face off because I know I'm done. I'm getting interviewed by a duty captain. He's going to smell the fucking booze on my breath, and my face is not quaffed, so I'm done.

Not because this is going to bring attention to my drunkenness. So I'm shaving and bleeding. In comes a sergeant with this fucking inmate, convict, whatever he is, and perp. And I look at him. He looks at me. I go, what the fuck did you do? He goes, there was voices telling me I had to go. They were telling me I had to run.

I go, I pick him up. You know, you get superhuman things. I pick him up at one hand like this. I got him against the glass in Kings County Hospital. And I go to him. I want to fucking knock him out, but the sergeant's right there right so I just go take it easy take it easy take it easy you know he just cost me fucking 10 days I can't go on my vacation now so I let him down and uh I go drag him back to this his uh his

appointed bed now I want to fucking I want to put the cuffs around his neck right I know I shouldn't have fucking I don't know I don't know the voicesuffs around his neck, right? I know I shouldn't have fucking, I don't know. I don't know. Voices are telling me, I look up on his bed. It says HIV. Now back then, HIV was like, you know, you're done. I'm done. I think I got AIDS. From touching him. From touching him. I think I got fucking AIDS. So here I am. I just touched this AIDS patient. I'm dying. He's dying. And I'm going on vacation.

And what am I going to do now? How do you respond to this? So I don't know what to do. So I'm waiting for the duty captain to come by. I'm bleeding. I'm bleeding still. I got holes in my face. Right?

Now I can't even touch myself. I just touched him with my hands. Now I got AIDS on my hands. I'm bleeding. I'm done. I might as well just sign my death warrant right now. Not to mention, you know, I'm not making this vacation. So anyway, they come to relieve me and how the story turns out is I end up on vacation in a timely manner. I'm supposed to process this arrest. The arrest took me about 15 minutes to process so I walk

back into the precinct and the lieutenant on the desk goes, Dowd, you've got to go back down to Central Booking and process the arrest of that inmate that escaped. I go, I do? He goes, yeah. I go, I hand him a piece of paper. Here's the arrest report to 61, the aided card, and my overtime slip. He goes, you're done? This is the guy who's trying to bang my girlfriend.

He goes, you're done? The guy whose spot I parked in with the red Corvette. He goes, you're done? This is the guy who's trying to bang my girlfriend. He goes, you're done? The guy whose spot I parked in with the red Corvette. He goes, you're done? I go, there's my arrest number. We hated each other. I go, there's my arrest number, there's the fucking complaint number, and there's the mated card, and there's my overtime slip. He knew I was going on vacation. He goes, he's

fucking fuming. So, P.S., I lost the perp, I got him back, and I still made the vacation. Wow. And I end., I lost the perp, I got him back, and I still made the vacation. Wow. And I end up not losing the 10 days. They forgot to interview me. They forgot to interview you? Yeah, I ended up

getting interviewed about a year later on that, and they took something from me. But it was like, it was like, it was happen chance then. They took something from you? We have this old thing

sitting around on our desk. I go, whatever. It's over with now. So the sting wasn't there and I, I'm not going to lose my job. You know, I'm drunk, on duty, losing a prisoner. Come on. Right. How did you not lose your job? You got lucky. Maybe. Did I? Definitely. I would have lost my job. I would have been safe, right? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I hate to say everything happens for a reason. I fucking hate that saying. Sometimes it applies. It's scary.

Jesus Christ. But you got to feel lucky that you went through all this and you're still alive and you're still healthy. I am very lucky and blessed. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I mean, you've lived a, I mean, to say you've lived a colorful life. I'm fucking tired. You have I am. I mean, you've lived a... I mean, to say you've lived a colorful life...

I'm fucking tired. You have to be. I'm fucking tired. Jesus Christ, you've been running up hills... I look at you sweating like a fuck just telling these stories. Carrying weights

your whole life. On coke. On these sticks, these spindles of a leg. Jesus fucking Christ. It's a crazy story. And I'm sure you have a million crazy stories like that.

That's an easy one. That was an easy one to tell. Yeah, that's a four-, and I'm sure you have a million crazy stories like that. That's an easy one. That was an easy one to tell. Yeah, that's a four-minute one. Yeah. I just couldn't imagine. I really do hope that this does become a book. Well, I'd like to share the stories because they're interesting and funny. And you know what?

A lot of people like to not—they don't want to give the recognition to—this is what life is. People live a life, and you have to share your stories with people. You really do. I like to talk. Well, and the time. It's like you were alive during the perfect time where all this happened. The crack era.

Right, the crack era. Well, not just that. You started out before the crack era. The crack era happened while you were in. It destroyed a large community of people and people that weren't even part of the community got destroyed because of it. And think about how much like would how much of it would be different today because of cell phones, because of the internet. I mean, there's just, you know, we could bring this conversation that direction. It

wouldn't be the way it was. No, there's no way. And that's why I like I talk about this often. I think that you really, you know, you have to get with it. You have to move along. The police society has to move along. You know, I, listen, I tell a story in the movie. A cop gets shot, right? I end up taking him to the hospital. And I didn't deserve to feel his pain.

And that's a really hard thing for a guy who was a cop i didn't deserve to feel what happened to him and his family and uh he really when you're a cop you don't want to ever feel that way i mean did you feel like you were a cop when you were in the middle of it all you know what you know what joe i i always felt like a cop i just always thought i can come back and be a cop. See, you always thought, like, eventually, I'm going to let this stuff go. Right, I'm going to grow up.

Wow. Just never got a chance. I'm going to grow up, you know? Well, you piled up so much, you know? You know, it's a fucking crazy life, man. It's really crazy.

It's not a good life, you know? And the fact that we're saying that, you know, I could sit on a pile of gold or whatever, and I love to hear that. It's just that you turn something bad into something good is a good thing. But it was fucking hell. And still, I mean, I can't even go up to a cop today and say,

hey, you're doing a mic down. You could do that to any cop. And they say, hey, Joe, nice to meet you. I love you. I do that. And I'm like, do they really want to say hello to me or do they want

to just clean their fucking hand, you know. I had a guy come up to me at one of the previews I did or screenings and said,

you're a fucking low life piece of shit, go fuck yourself. He was a cop? Yeah, yeah. I probably could have squashed him like a bug

but that's not the point, you know, you know, it's true, you know. I looked at him and I fucking squashed you. You couldn't be half the cop I was.

When I did my job well, you couldn't be half what I was. But, you know, the problem was I dabbled on both sides at the same time. That's why in the movie they say, what were you, a cop or a gangster? Both, you know? Yeah. There's that scene where the one cop sees you coming out and he says he looks at you and he goes, and I don't see cop, I see perp. Right, right.

Well, he's a douchebag. Is he a douchebag? Yeah, he's a douchebag. They don't like him. Why's that? No one likes him. Internal Affairs doesn't like him. Really?

Yeah, I'm working with Internal Affairs right now, by the way. You're working with them? Yeah, I didn't tell you that? How so? No. No, no, I'm training them. I'm training them. We're in the midst of finishing a training video

for bosses, cops, and recruits. Three different videos. Wow. Well, and recruits. Three different videos. Wow. Well, that makes sense. That seems like something that you would really be able to help with. Yeah, I think I could. And I put a little, a lot of these films are so dry and boring, and I give a little character to the fucking training session, you know? A little flavor. I mean, listen, I met two beautiful women, and I'm being honest, sincere. I spoke on

one of them. One was the chief of internal affairs, and I'm being honest, sincere. I spoke on one of, one was the chief of internal affairs and one was the lieutenant of internal affairs, both smoking hot. Yeah. And for real.

And they would have had me in a minute. You know, if they just sent them in, I would have been caught in 1987. But anyway, these two girls,

women, and they, they fucking just, they knew, they knew that their internal affairs division needed something that was,

after the word, poignant or riveting. And they said, we need you. Can you help us? They need some character. They need some character. Yeah, people don't pay attention to information unless it's distributed in an entertaining way. There's a big difference between just flat, boring, dry information and information that's got some flavor to it. Right. So I did something with them. And in fact, I spoke to them last week briefly.

I told them some of the things I was doing. They were sort of acting jealous. I said, jealous? You got a fucking pension. Don't be jealous. Okay? I'm selling my soul right now just to make ends meet. And they got a pension and retirement system.

They're going to be fine. But interesting conversation with them. And so they're looking to do something with that and have me back and speak before academy class. I don't know about the precincts. The guys might not open their arms to me the way the rookies are forced to. And then I'm doing some colleges right now. That's great, too.

That sounds great. Humanities classes, some ethical classes for the law students and criminal justice departments. One of the police departments has actually reached out to me in the South. I don't want to put their name out there just in case they decide not to. But they have like 750 officers

they want me to come and actually speak. It's a great idea. It makes a lot of sense. It's a very smart idea. You know, look, what I did was horrific. You know, I abused a position of trust. I did my time. Now I hope I can help people avoid guys that can do what I did, or pick up

on it, and maybe had it stopped before. Like, this maybe guy has the characteristics of a guy that could go that way. You know, this is not an innocent happening. This thing just didn't happen because I was, like, greedy, which is definitely part of the reason it happened. It happened because of a bunch of political things that were put in place back in the 80s. We started promoting people based on the color of their skin or their ethnicity rather than on their promotional ratings, passing tests.

And it was very, very divisive. The police department became divided. And we all became our own actors. And it was a difficult time for the police department. And what you got from it was a difficult time for the police department and what you got from it was a lot of internal strife called we hated the job but we loved being cops so it was very difficult and the guys that loved being cops that were true to the job they became good cops and got their pensions the guys like myself who turned into me they began to rebel i mean they're telling

you not to make arrests you know they're telling not to do this. And your boss failed three tests, and you didn't pass them either. So you both should be in the same ground. Now he's your boss or she's your boss. So it was a very, very political upturning, upheaval within the police department itself when this rife time in the crack era hit, all at the same time. It's like a perfect storm. It was a perfect storm. The whole thing is a perfect storm.

And they didn't want another fucking scandal like they had in the 7-7 precinct. Right. Which people aren't aware of unless they know the police department history. Mike, we just did three hours. Oh, fuck. That was it. That's three hours just fucking flew by. Make sure we talk about themikedow.com.

Yes, themikedow.com, and that's where people should buy the documentary, the 7-5, and do buy the documentary because it is fucking five stars. Thank you. It's outstanding. It was well done. It's very, very well done, and it's compelling, and so are you, man. Thank you very much, brother. I really appreciate it.

I'm very happy to be here. We're going to do this again. Oh, great. Great luck to you. Thanks. All right, fuckers. See you soon. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo. Woo.

Woo. Woo. Woo. . Woo. . . .

. . . . . the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to the music to