The Joe Rogan Experience - #718 - Christopher Ryan

Episode Date: November 3, 2015

Christopher Ryan, PhD is a psychologist, speaker, and author of New York Times best seller "Sex At Dawn"

Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Chris Ryan. Hello, America. Hello, Christopher. We were just talking about the pussy whip phenomenon. We were talking about men who have wives that answer their phones, their cell phones. Not to be helpful, like, you know, secretarial, hey, let me get your phone. So I'm wondering if there are dudes who get off on that. Oh, yeah.

They have a mommy that takes care of them. This guy's kind of like that. His wife, I called. That was the first time I'd ever called him before off of this new number. And I think she didn't have the number. And so she answered it like accusatory, like, hello? It was like I was doing something wrong. Explain yourself.

Some dirty girl calling her man who the fuck is this i was just like hi i wish dirty girls called me you just gotta put your number on the internet they'll call you okay you have questions i get i get some dirty email sometime i prefer that that's good because that you can control yeah you don't know if you're being catfished, though. Might be a dude. It's all right. As long as they're a nice picture, I don't give a shit.

Give me a fantasy. I'm reading a novel. It's like you're reading the words of a character that someone's created. Exactly. Do it well. I don't care. I'm never going to meet you anyhow. And men would know what men would actually be interested in.

Well, that's the thing. I mean, I had Bailey J on my podcast recently. You know who she is? Yeah, she's coming on mine soon. Oh, good. She's wonderful. I mean, I had Bailey J on my podcast recently. You know who she is? Yeah, she's coming on mine soon. Oh, good. She's wonderful. I really like her. And she was like, I think she said her husband straight. Well, let's explain who Bailey J is. Sorry, yeah. Bailey J is a trans woman, chick with a dick, who doesn't give a shit what pronoun you use. But she does. She got upset at Gavin McGinnis because Gavin was calling her a he.

Did she really? Yeah. Well, that's his words, though. With me, she... Because I asked her about that and she was like, I don't give a shit. She was really relaxed and funny. That's... See, Gavin says that but there could have been some other things. Maybe he was being a dick, you know? Very possible. He's the only guy

I've ever had on the podcast where two of my friends called me up after the podcast and went, that's not true. This guy, this is not what happened. Let me tell you. Kurt Metzger and Jim Norton both called me up complaining that what he said wasn't true. So he's an interesting cat, that Gavin. You know who he is? Names ring a bell, but I've got a picture of him, but I can't remember who he is.

He was one of the original founders of Vice, and they call him the godfather of the hipster movement because he dresses like like a really sharp dress guy from like the 1940s or something like that he wears like vests and ties and tailored suits and he has this crazy facial hair that's yeah okay i've seen that yeah and you know dress is really nice and he's super like he's on the right wing side of things like very conservative in a lot of ways and he became a catholic when he was like in his 40s it's a lot of weird shit going on with that for a woman was it one of those no he was already married with kids and and he described it. It was a very weird thing. He said that he was looking at his daughter's foot, and he realized that he's looking at his daughter's heel. He realized that there's a God.

I'm sure, given more time, he would like to express himself a little more clearly in that regard. But I have a feeling that a lot of these right-wing people that go pro-religion where it doesn't make sense where they're like super analytical and rational and kind of calculated about other things but then when it comes to religion they just completely give in

and don't question it I feel like it's an affiliation thing I feel like if you want to be affiliated with the right you have to be religious. And I think that they recognize that. Because they know that if you do that, if you blindly affiliate yourself with religion, and if you want to be sort of ingrained in the right, you kind of have to be religious. There's very few people that are conservative or on the right that are atheists or agnostics. Right.

And you're right. There's much more unity on the right. The left, everybody's stabbing each other in the back, which is why assholes rule the world, essentially. They stick together. Well, it's disturbing to me. And I've got some people coming up, some interesting podcast guests that are going to talk about it. I talked about it with Dave Rubin recently where he calls it – and Dave is an interesting example because he is a gay man who is very – he's across the board on a lot of different issues. He's like – he's pro-Second Amendment.

He's like – he's relaxed and analytical. And he calls it the regressive left and he's like it's almost like they've been fighting against the right so long they've become their own version of that they've been fighting against like the religious right or the super ultra conservative regressive right that they've become the regressive left and i think he's got some good points in that regard yeah yeah i i try to get away from thinking left right you know because to me it's more tolerant intolerant and you know since sex of dawn came out i i expected a lot of blowback from the right and actually most of the blowback we've received has been from the

left really yeah from really yeah because all the political correctness. Oh, you're a cisgendered white male with your mansplaining, blah, blah, blah. Mansplaining? You're not mansplaining. I do. Please tell people that don't know, though. Well, it's like the arrogant guy who explains everything, knows everything. Well, if you explain things and you're a man, you're mansplaining. You know what I was thinking about recently and i don't want to get into like a men's rights thing you know because i mean and there's there's a lot

to be said there but anyway i was thinking about man spreading you know what that is yeah on the subways right you sit with your legs open you take up too much space here's the problem with that. A, men are generally bigger than women. B, men have balls. Where are we supposed to put our balls? If you can't spread with your legs, where do your balls go? Well, the idea is that you're being rude, though, because you should keep your balls compressed so that the people next to you aren't encroached upon, invade their space. Well, I'll tell you what, my balls are getting encroached upon. Invade their space. Well, I'll tell you what. My balls are getting encroached upon, and that's got a very immediate effect.

I think design the seats better. That's true. But meanwhile, the seats are what they are. And so for a very short amount of time, just think of it as an exercise in your inner thigh development. Just keep them pinched and work on an isometric tension sort of a thing. I think about like putting someone in my guard, like I'm trying to hold a triangle. Right. Keep my legs closed. Well, look, I'll go with it if it becomes socially acceptable for me to put my hand down my pants and pull my balls up before I cross my legs. You know, I think you should just do that. Well,

I do do that. But, you know, it freaks. Then I i shake their hand that's probably freaked out you should have like a ball grabbing glove like that you could just sort of slap it snap i'm about to give myself a prostate exam this is only so that when i shake your hand you know that's right yeah yeah yeah it's the design sucks the design of the male body like the balls on the outside is really stupid i think it's the design of the fucking seats i'm the balls on the outside, is really stupid. I think it's the design of the fucking seats. I'm fine with my balls. So he kicks you in the balls. Oh, that, yeah. It's so vulnerable.

Yeah, from a fighter's perspective. Yeah, it's a bad design. Your balls are like the most vulnerable part of your body next to your brain, and they're right there. You know why they're there, right? Keep it cool. Keep them cool, right?

Yeah. So that your boys are ready to roll at a moment's notice you've always got i in sexadon we say the external scrotum is the equivalent of a beer of a fridge in your garage full of beer so you got a spare fridge it's always ready to go because you never know when the guys are coming over to watch a game you got to have a couple of cases cool and ready to go right you can't just pop your nuts out when you're thinking about having sex later on that night and let your sperm cool off.

But still, another shitty design. Like, why, you know... And it's on every animal. Like, every mammal has balls on the outside. Well, no, not everyone. Like, gorillas, they're in the abdomen. What? Actually, yeah, yeah.

They have such tiny dicks. Tiny little dicks. And see, that's why, because... They have such tiny dicks. Tiny little dicks. And see, that's why, because, but the male gorilla's twice the size of the female. I didn't know their balls were in their abdomen, because chimps are hanging out. Chimps are out, bonobos are out, and they're huge. Giant. They're like chicken eggs. Yeah.

That's because the females are promiscuous. Yeah. So you got the balls outside the body, that's an indication of female promiscuity in the species. Oh, I knew it was the size of the testicles was an indicator of female promiscuity. I didn't know the balls outside the body. Right. So ladies, if you don't like our mansplaining, how about you stop being whores? And if you weren't, we won't manspread.

If you weren't hoeing around, we wouldn't need our balls on the outside. We could suck our balls up into our abdomen if you girls just keep your fucking legs shut. How about that? Do you ever see a yogi do that? Oh, no, they do that? They suck their balls into their body? Have you seen it?

No. I don't think it exists. Jamie, find out if a guy can pull... Yeah, I read it too. There used to be a thing about Weichiru karate. Like Weichiru guys,

supposedly they would have these katas and in the kata they would be able to suck their balls up into their body to prevent them from getting kicked. I've never seen it. I feel like I would have saw it already.

I'm not a big fan of any ball sucking, actually. None? Well, no, because it hurts. Well, if a girl does it gentle, if she's good at it, and she's got the upward stroking thing while she's sucking on your sack, it's not a bad thing. No, I've never popped a a Woody on the show before. Some gals have skills. That's all I'm trying to say. It's like we're not all created equal,

whether it's basketball or painting or dick sucking. Where the hell did this- Some people are artists. We started this- You said something about- Never try to follow the chain. Yeah, go back. Just let it roll. You said something about... Never try to follow the chain. Go back, yeah.

Just let it roll. Well, because, I mean, for some reason, five minutes ago, I had the thought, like, I remembered some gay guy saying to me, like, gay guys give better blowjobs than women do. Or maybe he was bi. Oh, we were talking about someone sending you a letter catfishing you, pretending to be a woman when they're really a man. Oh, and you said if it's a dude, he knows what gets you off, right? That reminded me of this thing. And I was thinking like, yeah, I'll bet dudes give great blowjobs. I would imagine.

And women, lesbians report much higher orgasmic frequency than straight women do. And it's the same thing, right? Like a woman knows how to go down on a woman where guys are just like, well, I don't than straight women do. Hmm. And it's the same thing, right? Like a woman knows how to go down on a woman where guys are just like, well, I don't know what to do. What do I do here? Puh, puh. Do I blow on it? Yeah.

It makes sense. But isn't that like a communication thing? Like you tell people what you like and why it feels good. Yeah. Some people are just not good at communicating sexually. It's interesting because it's like one of the few things that people can be like really embarrassed about communicating about was like people tell you what kind of what colors they like you know i don't like a couch that's white yeah my car has got to be black you know like people have weird rules when it comes to like things that they enjoy

but when it comes to sex they're really it's really hard for people to express what they enjoy yeah i had dinner last night with a sex therapist and we're talking about that and she's like she was like, you know, I've got people come in they've been married 25 years and They've never talked about like what position works, you know Or you know that she doesn't like it when you do that and you've been doing it 25 years. Yeah, she gets off on it Is there a thing? Yeah Yeah, yeah, it is it's a weird thing sex, you know thinking she gets off on it. This is her thing. Yeah. The cunt punch. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a weird thing, sex. You know, it's weird. You're wanting someone to touch your body in a way that's pleasurable, and it really is sort of ultimately based around reproduction. I mean, that's what the whole feeling and sensitivity is ultimately about naturally or nature-wise. Yeah, I mean, we argue in Sex at Dawn that in humans, sexuality got co-opted away from reproduction

towards social uses. Yeah, definitely. Without a doubt. Yeah. But originally, you're right. I mean, that's why all the nerve endings are there and all that business. But even that, you could argue that having it been co-opted and having it move away from just being about reproductive, just the pleasure being tied into being a reproductive mechanism, it's still about reproductive even if it's socially. Because in the social thing, it's one part of a greater pattern of things that's set in place to make sure that you have the preferred mate,

you know, like socially as well, like seeing how someone interacts with someone socially, seeing how someone, all those things are like sort of set up this like very complex dance of interaction between men and women where you're trying to figure out like, what is the best case scenario for someone that you're going to get together with, that you're going to establish some sort of a really intense relationship and bond with. And the most intense at the ultimately, at least the most, the most committed is having a child that you have to take care of together, you know, because then you're not just committed to it in the sense of I love you and you love me. But now we have to take care of people, you know, and so now we have to sort of abandon our own needs to take care of these people as well.

And we've kind of gotten this position by virtue of our being able to socially jive with each other. Yeah, I would argue and have argued that in hunter-gatherer times, that sort of nuclear family thing that you're positing, the mother-father-child, is much more fluid. And so women weren't really that concerned about a mate in that sort of long-term sense. You're talking about like tribal situations? Yeah, foragers, which is is 95 or more of our existence as a species right so it's so what i argue in in sex of dawn is that it's it there's more dispersed responsibility for child care that food is shared that defense is shared everything shared

and that really freaks out 20th century and 21st century Western scientists because it smacks of communism, you know. But that's simply the fact. If you look at hunter-gatherers that still exist or, you know, even bonobos, right, one of the primates most closely related to us, they share food. Very egalitarian, right? in right and uh so i think that the the woman the woman's admiration for a man isn't necessarily sexual attraction for the man so she might be fucking a dude who's actually genetically more compatible with her but you know she spends more time with another guy and you see that played out in marriages now like a woman will will marry a Hugh Grant kind of dude, but when she's ovulating,

she'll go out and fuck a Brad Pitt looking dude. You know, square jaw, testosterone indications, right? Because the vigor of his genetics turns her on when she's ovulating. When she's not ovulating, she finds it kind of vulgar and she's more into the other dude. So, like, women's taste is really interesting.

This woman tweeted something the other day and I responded to it. It was really interesting. She's an author. And she was saying that women, like, men complain that sometimes when men and women are together for long periods of time that the woman no longer wants to have sex right she goes well why is it so obvious to men that they want genetic diversity right they want to spread their seed but when a woman is done with your dna like she's already had kids with you she's gonna want dick from other dudes like it makes sense that she would want other dna like why would it be that she would only want kids from one man right and she said she googled it and she couldn't find it anywhere

and i think actually you and i had discussed this once like this idea but it totally makes sense right yeah sure i mean genetic diversity is a bit a big thing i think i just pulled out my did you oh that earplug? We'll figure it out. Jamie, it's... Technical. Did it pop right in there? I just moved my foot and something popped out there. Oh, it connects over there. Sorry, folks.

No worries. They didn't know. I didn't even know. Only you can hear. I just heard it go crazy. Good, yeah. What are we talking about? The genetic diversity, yeah.

Yeah. Did I ever tell you about the goat study? The goat sheep study? I'm not sure. It's a great one. It's in, it was, took place in Scotland. And do you need a light? No. They wanted to understand this sort of like how males and females differ in their adaptation to like how they, their, how they imprint sexually. So what they did was they took the babies,

all the babies born one year from the sheep herd and put them in the goat herd. And then they took all the baby goats and put them in the sheep herd. Oh yeah, we did talk about this. So in the end, the males were fixed, right? They would only have sex with the one that they had grown up with.

But the females were like, whatever, put me with the goats, I'll fuck the goats. Put me with the sheep, they had grown up with but the females were like whatever put me with the goats i'll fuck the goats put me with the sheep i don't care so there's just this fluidity in female sexual response that in males you don't have and we talked i think last time i was on we talked about fetishes and how like almost all fetishes are men yeah i'm gonna get that girl on that's sierra is that her name sierra lynch yeah oh you're gonna have her on yeah we're gonna i need to hear about the humiliation and all the crazy shit that she has these guys pay her to do it just sounds so bizarre yeah i need to hear about this but um she's you know like you're talking about the porn star earlier not that sierra's a porn star per se

but she's so sweet and nice and like i'm sure you know she's just really she's probably just unrepressed as well you know i mean she's just she her life is so bizarre in comparison to the average person that sometimes i think we have all these like self-imposed borders that we put on our behavior and i think that's one of the reasons why someone like her exists like your release valve right for all this pressure this this repression that a lot of it is self-imposed and so they try to find some sort of an outlet for all their kinky weird shit that really builds up almost like a residue of our mundane suppressed society yeah and it builds up precisely because it's repressed right yeah like that's what this sex therapist last night was saying to me is like if if people have a way to express this

energy then it doesn't become problematic because it doesn't build up it's you know like if dude wants to dress up in women's clothes or whatever and his wife's cool with it like every once in a while he dresses up and like okay whatever that's cool but if she would freak out it starts to become a big issue in his life right last time i was on i think we talked about um i had to have this theory of how some people have like a homosexuality fetish yes as opposed to being born homosexual right dude i must have gotten 30 or 40 emails from men after that saying dude that's me you i've never heard anyone describe that that's me and now i'm getting a lot of um i've gotten several really moving emails from uh men who are attracted to kids and what they're saying is like, look, I, you know, I know you sympathize with people who can't help what they feel.

Right. Which is true. I feel this. I don't ever want to act on it. I don't want to ever do anything. But I can't tell anyone. I can't go to a therapist because they by law have to like turn me in. So, like, freaked about anything around, you know, sex and kids that we're shooting ourselves in the foot because we're not giving these guys a way to let some of that energy vent off. Well, we have to, I think we have to admit that there's something going on in the mind that causes this.

And they have to figure out what that is. Well, almost always it's guys who got abused themselves did these guys say that were they they're saying that yeah so what is it when you get abused as a child it could trigger something in you and then that that becomes attached to sexuality yeah i think i mean i'm i haven't done any research original research i've read a lot of papers, right? So take it for what it's worth. But my feeling is that it's like what we talked about last time with fetishes, that there's a developmental period for boys somewhere between 5 and 10 years of age where an experience can imprint on you permanently. an experience can imprint on you permanently.

And so that could be expressed as like you need to smell latex to get off or you need to be treated by, humiliated by somebody like Sierra or whatever it is. Or it could be you need to, like you want to have a sexual experience with a man, even though you're not gay, because you had that experience when you were seven and that, you know, imprinted on you. Um, and, uh,

so, and that's what that goat sheep thing is about, right? They wanted to say, they wanted to understand like, is this a male mammalian thing? Right. And so that's why they're looking at different species where,

yeah, these males, even though they're goats, they were with sheep when they came of age sexually and for the rest of their lives they can only fuck sheep you know well what is it with women then if it's a man a male mammalian thing because many women when they're young if they're sexually abused they associate sex with worth and they become hypersexual at a very early age. They've, they, they, they're more prone to masturbating at an early age. Like, I think that's more, uh,

psychological with the males, I think in, and of course there are many exceptions to what I'm saying, but I think with males, it's more just a question of imprint. It's there. You can't change it. So it might be latex. It might be red high heels. It might be big tits or whatever. And more of a fetish thing. Right. A fetish thing.

Whereas, and so if you're sexually abused as a kid, the thing is, all right, you're a seven-year-old boy and your priest sucks your dick, right? It's freaky. It it's bizarre but it feels good because those nerve endings are there no matter how weird the situation is there's a physiological pleasure associated with it so and also when you're seven you don't know how weird it is you don't know what's going on right you just know like wow that felt great and this guy likes me and i'm special and so it imprints on a neurological level whereas with girls i think what happens is you know daddy's really nice to me when this happens daddy really likes it when i do that and i love daddy and so

those sort of connections are made on a level of personality god damn yeah it's it's heavy but like to deal with it we can't can't push this pretend it isn't real right yeah right right yeah that is the issue right like how do you how do you mitigate that imprinting when it comes to like how they interface with society like how do you how do you figure out a way that you recognize the fact that they do have this issue and this issue was an imprinting issue because of sexual molestation as a young person and how do you how do you how do you deal with that and uh and somehow or not i mean i wonder what if anything could fit i mean what i wonder if they've ever done any studies on psychedelics like really intense ones like iboga and things along those lines like how that reacts to people

or how people react to that when they have those kind of issues well i think that's the way we need to to look because i mean i just finished writing a chapter on psychedelics in this book I'm working on now and one of the big points is that psychedelics are really good for breaking addiction and addictive behavior especially iboga right iboga is great because it's so intense yeah but I mean ayahuasca is great psilocybin you know different but Iboga is famous for it. The idea, I think, is that these boundary disillusioning, these boundary dissolving, rather, experiences are so intense that whatever patterns you had that were there before, they've sort of been dissolved for at least a short period of time.

You know, I've always described really intense psychedelic experiences as being like a reset button, like're pressing ctrl alt delete on your brain and that when your brain reboots you're left with a blank desktop with one folder in it and that folders labeled my old bullshit right and then in that my old bullshit folder could what I think you have to decide like what do I do do I do I look at this folder and look at it like an outsider and just try to see what is useful, if anything about my old bullshit, or do I fall right back into these comfortable old patterns? Because those are all I've known

for X amount of years of my life until now. I think for a lot of people, they have these big experiences and these big breakthrough moments. And then they go, I'm going to be new. I'm going to be different. I'm going to change. And then it's too uncomfortable. And then there's too much time between that experience and the next one. And they slowly slide right back into my old bullshit.

At least partially, at least in some way, fall prey to the victim of the patterns of their past. That's why it's so cool to have ritualized sort of culturally approved use like the Paiute and the Huichol Indians, right? Where every year they go to the desert and as they're going out to gather the Paiute, every night around the fire, they confess everything they've done that year that was wrong. So they cleanse themselves. And then they take the peyote and they have that experience, which I think that sort of sequential ritual helps to seal in the changes, the benefits. helps to seal in the changes, the benefits, you know. Whereas with us, like, okay, you go to Peru, you do it, you're back, you know, you're back in your old patterns. Yeah, we've talked about this before, rites of passage, you know, rites of passage for adults, that I think that these moments of celebration and ceremony, that sometimes they can be, like, really beneficial

because they physically mark, like, a big change in your life. It makes this thing, this new thing that becomes a part of your life. My phone has decided to transcribe everything I'm saying here. Look at this. Really? See what's going on here? I must have said, hey, Siri. Wow.

I've been doing that too. Look at this. Randomly, that's what I'm talking about. You sure the NSA isn't turning it on? No. Well, what are they going to do? They can just listen to the podcast. But Hey Siri has this new thing. Like, watch, I'll show you this. This is bizarre.

Excuse me, I'm talking. You're not on the microphone, you fuck. You're not Siri. I can say it into it, and when I say it into it, it'll call you., hey, Siri, call Chris Ryan. My number is not going to come up, is it? Yeah. Which one?

You got more than one phone. Oh, it's a bunch of Ryans. Chris Ryan, you fuck. It writes Chris Ryan, you fuck. I mean, Chris Ryan, the first one douchebag oh there it is it listened to me i said the first one but think about all those words that i said the first one douchebag the one that says chris ryan like it figured out how to do that. So I was on stage in the comedy store, and I was explaining how crazy phones are now. So I said, I'm going to show you something.

I made this recording. And, you know, I record all my sets because I'm always working on new material and blah, blah, blah. So anyway, I'm on stage, and I said, no, watch this. I go, you know, hey, Siri, call Brian Callen. And so it starts calling brian callan while i'm on stage but i made a recording of this so i'm listening to recording in my car as i'm driving so my car my phone is playing in my car the recording through the bluetooth and it says in the recording hey siri call brian call. So while the recording's going on, my fucking phone starts calling Brian Callen.

Like, how bizarre. That's an endless loop right there. It is an endless. It's two mirrors looking at each other. And poor Brian Callen's getting all these weird phone calls. Yeah. I'm putting it on airplane mode so that it doesn't work. But how strange that you can just talk to your phone now.

Like, you don't even have to press a button anymore. Well, I got a nice, I mean, Google has these new Nexus phones. I just ordered one. And the main reason I ordered it is they've also got this, I forget what it's called, FY or something. It's a plan that they only do with their phones where it's $20 a month, unlimited text and voice, and then you pay, I think it's $ bucks a month unlimited text and voice and then you pay i think it's 10 bucks a

gig for um data you know but it automatically picks whatever network is strongest where you are so it flips from verizon to at&t to sprint whatever as you're moving as soon as you get home it automatically goes to your wi-fi it always picks wi-fi when possible whoa so it's designed to keep your bills as small as possible. And here's why I got it. It's the same all over the world. So I don't have, like, I've always had a Spanish phone, an American phone. Then I got an unlocked phone with two SIM cards.

And I have to switch. And then the SIM card expires, you know, because I haven't been to Spain for a while. And it's a big fucking pain in the ass. This is like one phone around the world. And this is all through Google? It's all through Google, yeah. I guess Google panty in the ass. This is like one phone around the world. And this is all through Google? It's all through Google, yeah. I guess Google has deals with the various. They're Skynet, dude.

They're so terrifying. They're slowly but surely buying up all these Android companies. They're buying up robotics companies. They're working on artificial intelligence. They're working on drivable. Those cars. Those cars that drive themselves. Jesus.

Yesterday they invited me to come and speak at their headquarters and wherever the fuck they are. Did they ask for your DNA? No. You know what they did? They cloned you. So they asked me to come and give a talk. And I'm like, fuck yeah, Google. Why don't I go give a talk?

And then we go back and forth a few times. And then I said, I'd like to bring my wife as well. She'd love to see the headquarters. And then it's like, oh, we don't have a budget for travel um can you fly yourself to san francisco google doesn't have a fuck i'm gonna give a talk for free right giving you a day of my life and you want me to pay my flight google you don't even have flight money yeah you guys have fucking spaceship money exactly exactly i mean i want to come under the seas maybe it was like some google employee that wasn't they weren't you know they didn't get well that's what i said i mean i said like oh

i thought this was an official google event right and i don't have time you know if it's and he's like no this is an official event i'm like then how are you fucking kidding i don't have time you know if it's that and he's like no this is an official event i'm like then how are you fucking kidding i don't get it it's google that's so retarded that's unbelievably retarded the fact that they would think that would be okay that you would just go yeah i'll spend money for you sure fly to this gigantic campus that's worth billions of dollars as you siphon up all the world's resources and develop the ubermunch

robot killing machine. Let me bring you lunch, you know? How about I suck your dick while I'm there too? I mean. I'm a man. I'm good at it.

That's gross, man. I know. It's done. Well, you know, that was like the argument for, there's a lot of these like festivals like South by Southwest,

you know, that were like, they put on gigantic festivals, and they don't pay the artists. They don't have any money. But it's owned by Southwest, like South by Southwest, like Southwest Airlines sponsoring the whole thing. And they don't even fly you there. I'm like, you can't fly me on your own airline to your thing where you want me to work for free. You guys are out of your fucking mind. line to your thing where you want me to work for free because out of your fucking mind yeah but because it's like a big deal to be there a lot of people just say i just want to be a part of this and they go anywhere fair enough but and i i'm sure you get these pitches all the time what's this thing summit you yeah yeah same deal right you know it's like come to the mountain or

go on the cruise or whatever but what pisses me off is they don't tell you up front the first four or five exchanges you're under the impression that this is a paying gig right and then when you've already talked about dates and how great it's going to be and then it's like oh but and they make you bring up money you know i mean you've got an agent who does it but you know i was doing it myself and it's like you know we've been going back and forth and i have to ask you like you know by the way i you know my standard fee is x oh no this is because you get to meet all these great people yeah but you're charging money for tickets like people have to pay to go to this thing. Exactly. And I'm the attraction. Exactly.

They're paying so they can meet me. So welcome to the future. Well, there's a lot of that going on. I mean, Jamie and I were just discussing that actually before the show started about these companies that are trying to capitalize on podcasts. Where they're coming along and they're trying to take a piece of the action and offer some non-existent service that's going to connect you with more fans in exchange for a piece of the show. And I'm like, they're just banking on the fact that it seems good because it's a big company.

Like there's something attached to being attached to a big company. Actually, the contrary is true. It's a bad thing to be attached to a big company. Then you have to meet with all these people, and they get to decide which direction your shit goes in. And that Summit thing, man, I got an email, and I think you were in it. There was a bunch of faces on the email. Like, are you on the website? I fucking hope not, because I said no.

Well, I don't know, man. There was a lot of people that were on it that I was looking at that was like, what the fuck? You know, I was looking at it and I was like, this seems like very strange. Like there's a lot of people involved in this thing. Hold on. Yeah, well, they invited me to go on this cruise, which is next week, I think. And, you know, it is like they've got a lot of heavy hitters going on the cruise, right? As, you know, whatever, not presenters.

So, like, the CEO of Google is going to be there and, you know, Mark Zuckerberg or somebody, all these kind of people. Graham Hancock's on this thing. Right. Yeah. I wonder if they told him. He thinks he's getting paid. Yeah, there's a lot of people on this thing that seem like they should be getting paid i mean this is a i mean this it's a very impressive lineup of human beings you know maybe they pay

some of them and i'm just like not in the pay grade you know i don't know well i don't know either but i i mean i guess it would kind of make sense if it was free for everybody. Well, if you, or if you're, you're not anymore is about like, you need to like, like, let's say like Ted, it does this too, right?

It's all the networking opportunity. So if you're like a guy with an idea and you need investors, then fuck. Yeah, that's a great thing to do. But if you're an entertainer, you've got your own audience. Like,

I mean, I'm not looking for billionaires to listen to my podcast. That's not really my demographic. Yeah. So there's really nothing in it for me. Unless the billionaire is interested. But they're an individual at that one point in time. They're just a person that might happen to be rich.

Like if Richard Branson started listening to your podcast, you wouldn't be bummed out. Like, oh, that's cool. He seems like an interesting guy. Like it wouldn't be like, what an awesome opportunity to network and now pitch him my startup. Right. You know, and that's what a lot of these people are doing.

Whenever I hear that term, you know, I'm involved in a startup, I just want to run in the opposite direction. Just fucking flee. I don't even know what you just said, but I got to get the fuck away from you before you hit me with some emails about some shit that I don't give a fuck about.

Yeah, actually, I mean, I badmouth Ted, but I did become very good friends with the billionaire there. There you go. And he's like, I've been on his yacht a bunch of times, and it's great. Well, there you go. You networked. And here's the cool thing. This guy, I mean, I don't know if he's a billionaire, but he lives on a 130-foot yacht, okay, which has a gym. Well, that alone is probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

I don't know. I'm not up on yacht prices. I think they are. But this is like a Russian oligarch kind of yacht, right? Oh, yeah. No helicopter. He's got a gym on his yacht. There's a gym.

There's a sauna. There's a jacuzzi. There's a walk-in freezer. How do you lift weights in the waves? Machines. Does it balance freezer machines they're not free weights yeah you wouldn't want them rolling around but anyway he made his money on wind farms so there's not even like bad karma oh yeah that's nice you know he's just and he's a really nice guy that's nice yeah yeah he's he's funny raping the wind stealing all our making love to the wind all that fucking white man taking all our wind you know my kid uh we were uh driving yesterday she wanted to

uh watch peter pan we went to see the movie the other day and the movie is uh it's pretty cool it's kind of intense but uh this is my youngest she's five and the movie was a little freaked out for her a little too freaky like a lot of there's a lot of violence even though it's like implied violence you kind of get it and scared her a lot of mean people yelling big crocodile um so she wanted to watch the cartoon instead so i put on the cartoon and peter pan the cartoon is old as fuck right so i put it on and it is racist as fuck like it's one of those cartoons from like whenever I mean when did they make Peter Pan yeah a long-ass time ago but it's like they're going to war with the engines in this they're fighting

engines what it does it say 53 yeah there you go well I'm a little disappointed in them. 53 was a little bit more in line. I was hoping it was like in the 30s. Engines. My God. One of the songs in it was What Made the Red Man Red. It was just like, ooh.

Did your daughter notice that it was racist? She has no idea. She sees cartoons. She just goes in. She's zoning out while we're driving her little dance class. She's not thinking about it. She's just looking at something that's more interesting than being

on the road. I'm not a huge fan of sitting the kids down in front of the TV, but there's a lot of shows that are educational. They actually learn from them. If you could put on a good educational program, they actually pick up some stuff from it. Some of the little kid shows that they have today they have like little lessons that the kid can learn about you know how to be nice and what's the benefit

about telling the truth when you made mistakes and not getting upset at people and that kind of stuff it's kind of cool yeah but uh not those old movies those old movies just it's just racism yeah the whole after world war ii there was a lot of weird shit like pepe le pew i mean come on like french people staying and he's a creep yeah he was the rapiest fucking cartoon character ever i mean they never expressed why he never they never showed him fucking right But he was always clinging and grabbing and hugging and he just wanted to kiss. He's always this fucking stinky rapist.

Who was the other? The Dudley Do-Right? Oh yeah. That chick was always tied to the railroad tracks. Was Dudley Do-Right the Canadian? Yeah. The Mountie. He rode his horse backwards. And the Lone Ranger and Tonto? You know what tonto means in spanish no idiot in spanish yeah but native american what does it mean as if there's one native american language well they have some

variations but they have like similar words i think that they're i think the people the writers were fucking with us i think it was like samist, you know, the Russian thing where you slip it past the censors because they don't get it. That makes sense. Like the whole Batman and Robin being a gay couple. Come on. That's, you know. Boy wonder.

The boy wonder. Yeah. It was the first twink. Leave it to Beaver. Come on. Yeah. But did they call it Beaver back then? Yeah.

Beaver. I actually looked this up. And I invite you to do it, Jamie. I invite you to prove me wrong. I looked up beaver, and it went back to like the 1800s. Wow. Yeah. Makes sense.

Because beaver fur. Well, also, girls were not. They weren't shaving, yeah. That just shows you what a profound effect porn has had on our culture. Yeah. Because if you see a bush today, that's a girl who's committed to fucking shaking the... She's going against the grain. she's 80 yeah or she's like lebanese or something like that she can't help it she shaved a couple of days ago and she didn't think she was gonna fuck today you get the burn fucking

weeds growing on her panties it is a weird thing though, because until, what was it, maybe 15, 20 years ago, everybody had a bush. I grew up like Playboy Bush, man. And now there's no Bush and there's no nudes in Playboy. What's happening to this world? Try finding a girl today with asshole hair. Right? Try it. They don't exist.

Just try it. They're changing. They're changing the DNA. They're changing the DNA. It's a fascinating thing that porn has literally changed the way girls groom their pubic hairs almost universally. I mean, profound change. A percentage of change, it's almost like 80, probably like 80 or 90% of women have done at least some significant grooming down there. Maybe like leave a little landing strip or something like that, but let a full bush go. Full bush was the norm, right?

I don't know. I mean- I would assume. Yeah, I would think so. I mean, dudes weren't grooming, right? When I was in high school, I dated this girl. She was crazy. And she was just all over the place and uh she was

what it was like it was like there was two main girlfriends that i had in high school and uh they're both very nice girls there's nothing bad to say about them but one of them went to catholic school and she was the most fucked up and she just had just like massive suppression from Catholic school and just looking for an outlet and her outlet was any boy that like showed her attention like it was it was good for me early on to like date a girl who's like super promiscuous because it like lowered my expectations about like girls cheating on me or cheating in general like we kind of made some sort of agreement somewhere along the line that we'd never be like official boyfriend and girlfriend

we'd never be boyfriend we just hooked up and fucked a lot right but uh one time she uh had broke up with this guy and she came over my house and uh we were getting ready to do it but she wouldn't take her pants off and i go why what why? What's the matter? She goes, I'm embarrassed. I go, why? She goes, my ex-boyfriend made me shave my vagina. I went, what? Let's see it. Let's see what's going on down there. I'm like, whoa, that's crazy.

Like she was embarrassed that I would see it and like not see her bush. So it would be like freaky or that she would be some sort of a pervert or a whack job. But now it's like standard. It's so strange. Like I remember thinking – like she was embarrassed because another guy – I mean she was 18. She was embarrassed that another guy had made her do this and that I was going to see and I was going to think about this other guy. But honestly, for whatever reason, I've never been that that guy i'm not like a jealous guy like in that way really yeah no i'm like who cares what do i give a fuck especially a girl that i wasn't

even wasn't like you know we were long time boyfriend and girlfriend or anything she was just this neighborhood freak that i liked she was a great person. She was nice. She wasn't bad. But she just... Describe her to friends. She was like a kitten. You could roll a ball of yarn in front of them and they just have to dive on it. That's how she was with dick. You just

roll your dick in front of her? For whatever reason, that poor girl. I think pretty much everybody who tried to fuck her, fucked her. For a while, at least. I think pretty much everybody who tried to fuck her fucked her. For a while, at least. I think a girl like that should be admired and honored. You know?

Do you know about the, what were they called? The sacred prostitutes of ancient Greece? Sacred? Oh, yeah. Every woman, I think it was like a month, every woman had a month in her life where she would have to go and serve the gods of Greece by being on the steps of the temple. Fucking every man who wanted to fuck her.

Wow. So really. Yeah. So her her sex like was seen as her service to the gods and so they weren't whores they were doing they were you know doing god's work right there you know that's fascinating and a lot of cultures have that like we talked about in uh in sexist time we talk about the kulina i think who like um these men would go out on hunting parties like four or five days, you know, a few guys, and a woman would go with them to cook and, you know, keep the camp good when they're out hunting and fuck them when they got back to camp to, like, keep them comfortable.

And she wasn't some whore. She was, like, a great woman. Like, hey, it's my turn, you know, and it was an honored thing to do. And that's, you know, you were talking earlier about, like, how our culture, you know and it was an honored thing to do and that's you know you were talking earlier about like how our culture you know we repress all this really natural stuff and make it a problem when like why it doesn't need to be a problem i've always wondered why that is and i wonder if it has anything to do with our our need for innovation and for like growth and for productivity and if the idea of like somehow suppressing sexuality makes people concentrate on being more productive and more successful

so that way you can kind of earn sex and if sex was more free you wouldn't get as much done. And I wonder if it's some sort of a weird workaround that almost like the construction of this advanced civilization is sort of it's like it's invented this path that sort of ensures productivity. And one of the best ways to do that is to make people compete like in a very very efficient and ferocious way for the attention of women and if this the attention of women was like easily achieved there would be less ambition and there would be less so in in a sense suppression like leads to more materialism yeah it leads to a more obvious expression of that materialism. Like you want the big house. You want the nice watch. You want the nice shoes and the nice clothes. And in wanting all those things, you want all those things because sex is like difficult to achieve.

And if sex was easy to achieve, you'd be a little bit more relaxed in your needs. Because like ultimately the physical needs kind of like trump all the other stuff. You know, like do you want do you want a nice watch yeah i mean it's okay why do i want a nice watch well they kind of look cool okay but do you want a nice watch because girls are going to recognize it yeah well the girls don't give a shit about a nice watch they just want to suck your dick well well fuck that watch right exactly well you've just summarized the argument of Freud's civilization and its discontents. Really?

Yeah. That's what he says. He says civilization is the product of repressed sexual energy being redirected into productive activities. Huh. Well, I've sort of reversed it. I've reversed it almost like civilization is sort of engineered. Yeah. Right.

Because it's the result of that. It wants to continue and amplify that. Like any system wants to, you know, persist. Right. So because it's the result of that, then there are in built in mechanisms for perpetuating that cycle of repression, redirection, you know, dangling the carrot. of repression, redirection, you know, dangling the carrot. I mean, if capitalism could stop us from breathing and then charge us for air, they would. Oh, yeah.

They're doing it with water right now. They could figure out how to get that wind farm guy. Like, you're using our air. Yeah, exactly. You're making money off it. Exactly. I don't see how that's right. Well, I mean, they've done it with land, right?

You think about it. Like, no one had to pay for land. Before, no one had to pay for shelter. That was free. Well, have you ever heard the argument about public lands? I mean, there's a real issue right now with this Chris Ryan fuck. Not Chris Ryan. Paul Ryan.

Excuse me. You're the nice Ryan. Which Chris Ryan? Paul Ryan is not in my phone. is not in my phone. But that in 2013, he had proposed selling off public land to pay for the debt that our corrupt politicians

have fucking established. Yeah, right. Well, there is Teddy Roosevelt had set aside all these like national parks and all this wildlife area. That's incredible because we could all go there. I mean, we have these areas of our country

that are owned by the citizens. So like you can go to Yellowstone, you can go to all these different national state parks, national and state parks, and you can go fishing, you could go fucking kayaking, go camping. And there's politicians that have proposed selling off all this potentially

very valuable land to large corporations to pay off a lot of the tax debt or the deficit debt. The problem with that is, first of all, it's never going to pay it off because we owe fucking trillions of dollars. They tried to explain it, that if every man, woman, and child in this country gave every penny that they own, we would still be trillions of dollars in debt. Yeah. And it doesn't matter because it's debt in dollars and we print dollars.

Well, and it's debt to who? Yeah. Like who do we owe it to? It's all us. The Federal Reserve. Like who are they? What is that?

Yeah. It's a weird fucking, it's just ensuring that we're going to give them a disproportionate amount of resources and zeros and ones. And we already do. I mean, that public land is leased to mining companies for nothing. Yeah. Right? Nowhere near market value.

That's another thing that the right, like, almost universally does. They almost universally support big businesses that impede on public lands and frack and do a lot of things that are potentially damaging to the environment. And they, they're very submissive of that. They're very submissive. Oh, what a few P a few, a few wells get tainted. A few, a few lands get poisoned. There's a few areas where there's a spill as in, but it's this weird sort of agreement.

There's an agreement with a lot of like very confirmed-wing people that you're going to be religious. You're going to thank God. You're going to, whether or not you believe it or not, you want to align yourself with these people. You have to be openly religious. And you also have to be openly dismissive of environmental concerns. Right. There's this weird thing. And oftentimes it's amongst people that are not even wealthy.

Not only are they not wealthy, they have no potential to be wealthy. Joe the plumber. Fucking soldiers, man. There's this fucking guy I do jujitsu with who seems like a nice guy, but we were having this conversation once about global warming. And he starts going off about these people that believe in global warming. He's just real right wing. He's a soldier. And he's like, shit wing he's a soldier you know and he's like sure there's a natural cycle it's always been like are you a climate scientist

like how are you so confident do you know like there's like thousands of scientists that have been studying this for decades and they're convinced that there's some shit going down and that it has a direct relationship whatever whatever percentage of that relationship is, whether it's 5% or 6% or 1%. But there is a relationship between modern industrialized civilization and the warming of the planet. They believe, this is scientists that have looked at the data and say, well, maybe there's some cycle going on, but that cycle may in fact be accentuated by human beings and our activity. cycle may in fact be accentuated by human beings in our activity and we might be speeding this up along and it might have this effect that is like uh like this effect where like like there's there's some concern about the polarized caps have you heard that concern that as they melt they create pools and as those pools reflect water it exacerbates the situation and everything goes

in this exponential rate and it starts instead of looking at it like oh we're losing yeah there's tipping points instead of we're losing x amount of feet per year well no well actually once it hits this area and then comes water and then the water reflects light then it gets even warmer then everything gets crazy right and then you're you know then there's going to come a point in time where you're fucked i mean one need not look very far to find underwater civilization evidence right you know there's been a bunch of them that they found recently where they you know they go like near coastal cities and they're out you know scuba dive and they go what the fuck is this and they find like oh well 5 000 years ago this was a city yeah now it's

underwater that was about 300 feet higher than it was 12 000 years ago yeah i mean there's some sure there's all sorts of reasons for that and i'm sure that's not that has nothing to do with industrialized civilization because because the ice age and yeah yeah exactly but i mean there's no there's no question they they understand the mechanism perfectly of what's happening but i'm with you i think the the i think it's already too late honestly and see that's their next argument that's the argument that i can't really argue with because i think they're right that well it's too late you know because the methane that's what i'm worried about you know about the methane yeah from cow farts and shit no no in the bottom of the ocean oh right and methane is much uh has a much greater impact Oh, right. And then because the temperature is very cold, it's frozen. So it's sealed in.

And as the warmer water comes over and melts that ice, like permafrost is also happening in the Arctic. The permafrost is melting. So all the shit that's been sealed under ice is now coming up. And it's all decomposing plant material. So it's full of methane. Well, there was an article that I tweeted the other day that's even more terrifying. They were talking about the potential for long frozen viruses and bacteria that we cannot control and that we don't have any immunity. That's interesting. Yeah, being released as global warming sort of washes over these fucking dead wool mammoth carcasses and shit.

wool mammoth carcasses and shit some saber-toothed tiger got saber-toothed tiger aids and it's gonna just get blown off like like dandelions in the in the breeze and it's gonna fly up your nose and i mean you know it's completely unsustainable the population growth i there's a cool thing i've got this on reddit uh there's a tangentially speaking page where people talk about the podcast and whatever friends of mine and stuff so there's a a thing right now about you where the guy's like, look, Joe Rogan lives the perfect life. Right. It's the perfect blend of of 21st century technology and primordial life patterns. You know, he kills his own meat. He has chickens. He lives near a city, but he's got land and space. So he sort of delineated all these things about your life.

And he's like, how can everyone live that way? We need to make a world where everyone lives like Joe Rogan. Well, I don't think I could ever live like this if a city didn't exist. I don't think I could live like it. I mean, I'd have to be off the grid, right? So if I'm off the grid and I'm going to live the way way i live i would have to figure out a way to make a living so i'd have to have the kind of resources that i have which are really dependent upon a city and technology and technology and the internet yeah it really isn't possible like it's not

possible for everybody to live the way i'm living not if there are seven billion of us right right not if there's 20 million in Los Angeles. Right. Just in this city. I'm a fucking unique parasite. Yeah. I'm outside. What I'm saying is like if I think the key is dramatic reduction of population because

we've got the technology. Right. And we understand how reproduction works. So we could stop having babies if we want to. What do you think of the argument that as technology increases and as people become more and more centrally located in cities, and that's happening in all these urban areas, that people will be more concerned with their careers, and that I've read that there's a concern that the population will actually decrease dramatically because as people become more concerned with their careers

and more ingrained in the civilized urban life, that they'll be less and less likely to breed. Well, it's well documented that as women get more education and enter the workforce, their fertility decreases. They also become more they have more testosterone right i don't know yeah i'm not familiar with that but they definitely have less kids fewer kids and they wait later in life to start having kids and all that and they grow dicks right they become like men and mean maybe a little they start yelling um but no that's great i mean because i mean we're because I'm not talking about Carly Fiorina.

I'm talking about women in Pakistan who have absolutely no power or anything. So as they get educated and have more access to resources and so on, they'll have fewer kids. And a lot of places in the world right now, population growth is below zero. population growth is below zero japan spain france you know the nordic countries which is why the whole migration thing is there's a bit of a like a bait and switch going on there because they're complaining that they don't want immigrants but they know they need immigrants because there aren't enough young people to support the old people. That's so strange. Yeah. Well, the problem is they're getting immigrants. And a lot of times these immigrants have like these really extreme cultural values.

Right. I mean, they have a serious issue with, you know, different religious factions battling it out in all these European countries now. Yeah. You know, there's a giant Muslim population in France. And, you know, have you ever seen that video where this guy walks around paris dressed as a uh a jew like very obvious jewish person and he walks through his arab neighborhoods and just gets fucking yelled at and scream oh it's horrible to the anti-semitism and i asked uh ari about it and he's like it's been you know pretty well documented

that a lot of these places that have uh allowed allowed pretty much anyone to immigrate to that they develop these communities. And in these communities, they, you know, essentially hold on to some of the worst aspects of wherever they're from. And it's only part of the communities. But if you go through those parts of those communities, you're going to find those people. Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's, it's a tough one. Cause I mean, I'm generally, you know, pretty open to immigration. I'm an immigrant most of the time. Sure. My grandparents were immigrants. Anybody who's not open to immigration in America, it's like, well, where the fuck do you think you came from? Yeah. You know, even if, I mean, in my case, I live in Spain, even native Americans, they came down the Bering street from Siberia, you know? know yeah although that's being questioned too yeah they're finding they found uh ruins in south america that are about 40 000 years old in chile i might i might be overestimating that but i think that's what it is 40 000 right so there's no way that was bering strait right so now they're

thinking well like i was saying earlier about the diaspora from africa it seems it's much more complicated than the story of bearing straight and then spreading out from there because yeah they came over in boats well that was always an issue with the olmec people right was it the olmec i believe it was that they have these ancient uh heads they found in south america like the african features they They have very African features, very thick lips and wide noses and they think like... Yeah, it's Mexico.

Yeah. Yeah, I've seen some of those. Yeah, and they think that it's very possible that this is all Graham Hancock's area of expertise and him and Randall Carlson

will be on on the 19th and I'm really psyched about that. That's always a mind bender of a podcast. But Randall Carlson... He's the meteor strike guy. He fucking freaks me out. Yeah.

With evidence, photographs and core samples of how radically the Earth's temperature changed around 12,000 years ago. And he believes it coexists, that it corresponds directly with some sort of an asteroidal impact. But one of his things when he said everyone's concerned about global warming, and he's like global warming is a real issue, no doubt about it. But you know what the real issue is? Global cooling. He goes global cooling is far more terrifying. If you look at human history, the great periods of growth,

the great periods of education and innovation, they all came with warmth. Like whenever there's some cold, whenever things freeze and shut down, that's a wrap. That's the life killer. The life killer is global cooling. The glaciers in the last ice age, right? The glaciers were down to Minnesota, like all of Canada was under, and all of Northern Europe, like down into France, like to the Pyrenees, basically. You say half of North America.

Half of North America was under a mile-high sheet of ice. Right. Canada just didn't exist. Yeah. No fucking hockey. Zero hockey. Yeah. No Montreal.

No beautiful French girls. No. Nothing. What's that shit with potatoes that they eat? Poutine. Poutine. No poutine. That stuff's ridiculous.

That's people that are trying to put fat on. Yeah. That's cold weather food. Yeah. Definitely. Cozy. That stuff's ridiculous. That's people that are trying to put fat on. Yeah. That's cold weather food. Yeah, definitely. Cozy. That's goddamn delicious. Actually, I saw you in Vancouver. I was just going to ask if you've been to Vancouver.

I saw your show there. That's my favorite city in, well, I should say that. It's my favorite city all year round, whereas I really toronto when it's warm yeah and i love montreal too it's hard canada's fucking awesome yeah that is the number one place that i would move outside the united states like there's australia and canada those are the two spots that you heard from duncan he's he's in australia now is he really yeah he just went down like two days ago because because that's why i contacted you to do the shrimp parade thing, right? Because I was going to be in LA.

That's right. Yeah, we can't seem to organize it when we're all together. But Duncan's become too successful. I'm going to have to sabotage his career in order to have him hang around with me more. Yeah, he used to be available and now, oh, now Duncan.

He is so good at podcasts and rants. And he loves it so much that he almost i think he loves it more than he even loves doing stand-up those rants that he can just freely go into when he does those live podcasts yeah he's been doing a lot of live podcasting i did two of them with him but he never put them out i don't know where they are he's holding on to him yeah yeah quite a while ago really that seems odd he doesn't hold on to podcasts. That's so strange. Yeah.

Dude, I forgot to press record. Fuck. Don't get mad. Let's do it again. I remember what we said. Yeah. He'll just act it out now. Exactly.

Australia is amazing, though. I fucking love it over there. It's just too far. The flight is just brutal. A 16-hour flight. I've only it over there. It's just too far. The flight is just brutal. A 16-hour flight. I've only been there once. It was because I was invited to speak at Sydney Opera House in this thing they do that's like the Australian TED. But they call it the Festival of Dangerous Ideas.

Ooh, I like it. Isn't that great? I love it. And it's like the anti-TED where TED is all like, don't offend anyone and let us look at what you're going to say and let's rehearse this seven times. They were like, say whatever the fuck you want. We want people to talk about it and be provoked and no limit. Just say what you want. I appreciate that.

Yeah. I think that's a sign of a healthy culture. Getting back to what we were saying earlier where repression causes the problem it's trying to avoid by pressurizing it well that's always been the knock on ted is that they try to control that situation too much they try to make sure that the speakers all room together like uh eddie wong was saying that that they made him like room with some other duties like i'm rich yeah i want to get my own fucking hotel room man and they busted his balls because he came up to do your podcast to promote his ted stuff and like you know and they they pulled him off of the rest of the uh program it's just you can't do that with a successful guy like him because he's like what do i give a fuck well and getting back to the other shit they don't

pay their performance exactly they didn't pay him and they made them sleep in a room with some other dude. The whole thing is fucking uber bizarre. It's very strange. But in doing that, I understand what they're doing. They're protecting their brand because it's worth a lot of money now. I mean, they have a TED podcast, and they have these TED Talks and TEDx, and the website gets a fucking insane amount of traffic, and they've become a corporation.

They've become this corporate entity. But when you respect someone, like if you have someone like you and they like your book and they like your ideas, the more they can just give you free reign, the more it's going to be exciting. Right. Going to let you express yourself in an uncensored way. You're going to get the full Chris Ryan experience instead of like some bullshit watered down corporate version of whatever the fuck your ideas would be whatever palatable aspects of your ideas they think they could sell to people yeah yeah it's a strange

it's a strange thing i mean i i feel like you know they've got a huge platform and you got to respect that but on the other hand you know if I go out and I fuck up, they could just say, well, sorry, Chris fucked up. It doesn't have to reflect badly on them. You know,

you saw what happened with Graham Hancock. Well, the Graham Hancock put out his thing and they were saying this, all this pseudoscience or accusing him of pseudoscience. And, and, and, you know,

this, this horrific idea of pseudoscience, like let the guy express his opinions and ideas. And it was, it was about psychedelic drugs and it's his thoughts on how it corresponds with creativity in history and what you know how man sort of evolved and emerged with psychedelic drugs it's not a unique opinion not saying that it's not original it's not not unique in that it's not cool and interesting and that it's not he's not the only one that thinks this.

Sure. There's many, many people that believe this. And this is a common thought, not just amongst people that are on the fringe, but amongst scholars. Yeah. There's a lot of people that correlate, and rightly so, incredibly powerful, hallucinogenic experiences with changing people's ideas and minds. And that corresponds to big leaps of creativity or big chances that people take. Or like we were talking about your friend earlier today that was a lawyer and, you know, goes on this fucking psychedelic trip and says, fuck this law shit. I'm going to open up a float tank center and I'm going to be a freak.

Yeah. Be happy. Yeah. Yeah. And be happy. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, there's a big thing now in Silicon Valley with microdosing. Microdosing what? LSD or psilocybin or whatever it is. Because of the creativity. Yeah. Right.

And so, like, Steve Jobs said LSD was the most important experience of his life. Jobs said LSD was the most important experience of his life. Cary Mullis, who invented the DNA replication, credited it to. Yeah, the PR. What is it? Yeah. Probably Murray's Chain something. PCR or something like that. PCR, yeah.

He's supposed to be crazy, though. He's an interesting dude. Yeah. He took his Nobel money and just surfs. Really? Yeah. I met him at TED, actually. He was kind of irritating because I wanted to shake his hand and say hello.

But every time I saw him, he was engaged in the same argument with the same guy. This one guy was just hounding him. And I don't remember what. I don't know if it was like chemtrails or it was like one of these things and like and i kept thinking like dude just like you know it's been two days you know yeah yeah what's more this i know i'm good so um yeah the surfing thing is another one of those things like golf that i'm scared to try. And I don't necessarily think I would get addicted to golf because I find what's ridiculous about it is more appealing to mock than it is interesting to watch. Like the precision and the accuracy and all the control that you have to have over your movement, your body to make that ball roll into the hole.

It's still the end of the day. It's just a ball falling into a hole. It's fucking stupid. And that said, I'm hypocritical because i play pool and i love that but i know i become addicted to that but the surfing thing is an addictive an addictive thing that i'm scared of because i think i would fucking dive right into that shit everybody that i talk to that surfs the way they describe it i feel like it would be amazing But that's a really healthy thing to be doing. Until the sharks come and bite your dick off, Chris Ryan.

You just punch it in the face. You're a trained fighter, man. Maybe I need to figure out how to get strong enough where I can surf with chain mail. Get like a shark-proof suit and just get to be really yoked. I tried surfing. Yeah? In Nicaragua. I like how you say that.

Nicaragua. Nicaragua. Yeah. Like you fit right in. Like a glove. Yeah, it was perfect. The perfect wave, perfect place. And there was this ex-military American dude who gave lessons and like I met him in a cafe or something.

And he's like, dude, I'll take you out. It's great. It's where they filmed one of the like Survivor or one of those shows. And yeah, he took me out and it was this it was like the perfect baby wave it was maybe like two or three feet high perfect line coming in at just the right angle like you couldn't fuck it up you know and i had this real long board which is really easy long boards are better yeah well they're stable? And I mean, I'm such a fucking pussy, man. I like after like doing the push up and get up on it, you know, like 20 times, like my arms were shaken and like my knees were shaken. And, you know, I'm not in great physical condition. And finally, I got up and I was like, I'm standing and the waves moving me a little bit. And then I fell forward and the board smacked me right in the fucking forehead. And I literally saw stars, you know, like I haven't since I was seven and I wrecked my bike, you know, like that kind of like hole.

And I'm underwater and like, all right, that's you could die. Yeah. Yeah. You can hit your head and die doing that shit. Oh, do you see this? What's going on there? I was with this buddy of mine at a firing range oh no two weeks ago yourself i scoped myself i had blood running down my face it was it was humiliating i've done that really yeah yeah i

scoped myself once i scoped myself once when i shot a pig i scoped myself right on the nose oh like in an actual hunting situation wow i'll whack myself i don't know if that's better or worse i mean there were a lot of like okay white men laughing at me here's why it's worse i didn't i i scoped it sighting in my rifle now that i reconsider i had a band-aid on when i shot the pig but i scoped myself shooting at a target before I shot the pig. Well, that's what my buddy was scoping in. Like he had a new, he's an elk hunter and he had a new Win Mag 300, right? Yeah.

So I was shooting his 30-06 and apparently I was doing pretty well. And I don't know, maybe he was just humoring me, but he was like, hey, I think this is firing a little high. Can you take a shot? Cause you're really steady today. And so he was like, hey, I think this is firing a little high. Can you take a shot? Because you're really steady today. And so I was like, okay, no problem. And it just like, pow, and it just drove right into my forehead. Well, if you get used to a.30-06, there's a big difference between the kick of the.300 Win Mag. That's a big shell.

I got one of those. Is that what your monster thing is that you took out? I have two rifles that are like that, around that. One of them is a 300 Win Mag. The other one is a 7mm Remington Ultra Mag, which is basically real similar in size and round. They're both big, heavy rounds. That's what I shot the moose with, that fucker right there. Where?

That's right here. That's a baby moose. That's a moose? Yeah, it's a young moose. It's a, they would call it like a forky. It was 900 pounds, and it was a small one. They're so big. Where were you?

Canada. My buddy shot one the same trip that was probably 600, 700 pounds bigger. It was so big. It walked across the road and it literally didn't look real. Like his walked in the street in front of us. It was a road, not a street. But it was maybe 250 yards in front of us in the road. And we were like, Jesus.

It was like Jurassic Park. It was like a scene in Jurassic Park. I mean, we could have probably driven under it with the truck we were in. I'm not kidding. They're so fucking big. I remember seeing them in Alaska and thinking they were like horses on steroids. They're just the front shoulders are just incredible. With like barn doors growing out of the side of their heads.

They're monstrous, monstrous animals. You know, there's an idea that's connected with cold weather and large mammals like that, that the colder the weather, the larger the mammal i forget what the principle is it's skin exposure yeah yeah bigger internal and less skin exposure the ratio yeah the ratio because the same animals that are enormous in like saskatchewan like white-tailed deer if they're in mexico they're way smaller yeah like a big white-tailed deer in mexico is only like 100 and something pounds whereas in saskatchewan they'll get to 300 plus pounds they're literally

like three times as big same species yeah same species yeah yeah that's also why polar bears are so fucking big the polar bears are gigantic yeah you know kodiak bears on um i've been to kodiak have you seen one? I did. I was sitting on a bridge. It was weird. I was sitting on this bridge. I'd gone for a walk and it's like a low, you know, dirt board kind of bridge, you know. And I was sitting there writing in my journal, you know, the pedantic dickhead I was like, you know, poetry about Alaska or something.

And I heard the splashing in the river below. And I turn and look, and I'm like maybe 15 feet above the water. And I look below and there's this fucking bear down there, like knocking salmon around, like on the documentaries. Oh my God. And I immediately had like this, you know, Bugs Bunny image of him chasing me and me running down. But he didn't even notice me or didn't give a shit. Yeah. Apparently on Kodiak Island island even though they're so enormous those bears are so terrifying there's very few negative interactions with human

beings and that's uh one of the reasons why some people thought that show the hunt i don't know if you saw it was a show that was on i think it was on discovery or one of those networks what history just recently yeah it was john Yeah. Johnny Hughes did that. Who's Johnny Hughes? He's a guy. He's a writer, I know. In fact, maybe I told this story on your podcast about when he was in New Guinea and he brought those people back, the natives back to London. Does that ring a bell?

Anyway, I'm interrupting you. It does ring a bell. Go on with your hunt. I'm trying to remember what the story. ring a bell anyway i'm interrupting you does ring a bell go on with your trying to remember what um it was it was uh hosted by or narrated by the lead singer of metallica james hatfield and it was about taking grizzly hunters to this uh one island in alaska that has the largest brown bears in the world they're fucking enormous kodi is Kodiak. Kodiak Island. But the thing is, they're just eating fish.

Yeah. They eat fish and beached whales. That's another thing they eat. They eat beached whales. Like, a whale dies and washed up on the beach, they'll eat that fucking whale for weeks and weeks. They're disgusting. Look, they'll eat that rotten, stinky whale.

They like it rotten. Yeah, because it's easier to digest. Yeah. French. Yeah. They just get, like, cheese. Like, they... Fromage. That's why you can play dead with grizzlies, but not black bears. Really? Yeah, because it's easier to digest. Yeah. French. Yeah. They just get like cheese. That's why you can play dead with grizzlies but not black bears.

Really? Yeah. You can't play dead with black bears? Well, what I've, you know, look it up. I've got to be careful what bullshit I come up with here. Yeah, what I've been told is that black bears just eat you fresh. Grizzly bears will throw some dirt over you and come back a week later because they like it rotten. That makes sense unless they're super hungry at the time and they just gorge your guts and then slowly. That's one of the things they do is they always eat the guts first.

And women, you know about the thing with women. You go with the pussy? If they're having a period. Yikes. Yeah. It's really disgusting. Terrible way to die. Pussy first.

With a bear head. Yeah. You've seen that movie, Grizzly Man. I love that movie. That's a great movie. That is one of my favorite unintentional comedies ever. I swear to God, I think Werner Herzog, I would love to get drunk with that guy and ask him, come on, man, you knew you were being funny when you made that movie.

Have you met him? No, I have not. I would love to, though. He's amazing. He knows he's funny. I had that question about him, and I watched Bad Lieutenant. Have you seen that? Is he in Bad Lieutenant?

No, he made a remake of it with Nicolas Cage. When? Three, four years ago. Get the fuck out of here. You've got to watch it. Why would they do that? It's fantastic. No.

It's fantastic. It can't be. Nicolas Cage is off the fucking rock. He's crazed in it. But is it as good as Harvey Keitel? For me, it's better. What? But I'm a big Werner Herzog fan.

You need Jesus in your life. I love Werner Herzog stuff, man. Did you ever see him as a bad guy in that shitty Tom Hanks movie? Or not Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise movie? It was a shitty Tom Cruise movie where Tom Reacher, Jack Reacher, stuff like that. Oh, no, I never saw that. Oh, it was a piece of shit where Tom Cruise is like some assassin or something like that. Nobody can kill him.

He kills everybody. And Werner Herzog is one of the bad guys. He winds up killing Werner Herzog. It's such a fucking clunky, stupid fucking movie. But he has a nice car. He drives a nice 1970 Chevelle. Beautiful car. Well, there is that.

But Werner Herzog is an actor in a rare moment but when he talks all you can think of is timothy treadwell yeah timothy treadwell in the grizzly maze it's pretty good yeah the brutality of nature have you seen the antarctic movie he did no what is that it's a great movie encounters at the end of the world it's called oh so werner her a great movie. Encounters at the End of the World, it's called. Oh. So Werner Herzog, he says at the beginning, some organization gave him $5 million to make a movie about Antarctica. And I said to them,

I will not make another movie about the damn penguins. So the deal was like, here's $ five million or whatever it was just go do what you do right so he goes down there and he uh first he's got this friend henry kaiser i think his name is used to be the henry kaiser band does that ring a bell no it's like in the late 70s early 80s like a prog rock kind of band he quit music and became an underwater photographer and now he's like the best at uh under ice oh god yeah imagine that you've had vim hoff on here i'm gonna go to amsterdam and because he's i talked to his son and actually i was texting with his son while you guys were talking oh wow and uh his son was like yeah we'll do it and i was like but i don't want to do a fucking skype thing i

want to meet yeah whim he's like i think he's an amazing human being yeah so i go to amsterdam a lot so sometime i'm gonna go like hang on his houseboat that dude radiates really yeah yeah yeah when he's sitting across he's got this fucking like magnetic energy he's like just the real deal oh yeah yeah he's got 26 world records i'd say when you get over 20 world records you're like the real deal well and it's like my buddy who's rich from wind farms it's like when i mean i don't know when but what i've seen him on your show and i've seen the vice thing and all it's not about look how cool i am it's not ego like oh i gotta get another record and prove you know whatever right the dude's connected to

something really deep and the whole thing with his wife and you know how it started is so like beautiful and touching and sincere yeah you know it's not an ego like i saw that film everest the other day have you seen that no i haven't it's based on the crack hour book in the thin air a drama right it's a drama movie right well but it's based on truth the true story of of this uh i don't know if it's 10 years ago there was uh a day when like 10 people died it was the most disastrous day on everest ever and all this shit but i was watching that and it's like, okay, you guys are all climbing Mount Everest. Why?

Who gives a fuck? It's all ego. Yeah. Ego. Like, it looks really cool from the valley, you know? I mean, it really does. You don't need to, like, what is it about you that you need to say, I was at the top of Everest, you know, with my oxygen tanks and the five Sherpas carrying all my shit, you know, and

I paid 60 grand to the guide to like drag my sorry ass up there. I just felt like, yeah, fuck that. But then Wim, you know, that's a whole different thing. That's not about ego. Well, he also did it in his fucking shorts with no shirt. And he said, he was like, to do it with clothes is too easy. Like that's one of the things he said. It would really be easy.

There was a recent article, I forget what publication, but some online thing where they were talking about the business of going to Everest. That it's like this ecotourist business now where you get all these rich people and they hire these Sherpas that do all the dirty work. Right. All the hard stuff, carrying the oxygen, carrying the food, carrying everything. And all these people do is they sit in their warm tents and they put on their warm clothes and then they go where the Sherpas tell them and they feel like heroes. But I used to do a whole bit about Mount Everest that it's not like when you get to the top of Lucky Charms guys waiting for you with a bag of gold. Oh, finally, I've've reached the top now you don't have to

work again for the rest of your life come with me this free pussy and cocoa in the tent below but it's this bit about like the idea of climbing to the top spot is like impressive but nobody gives a fuck if you got to the lowest spot like nobody like i got the lowest spot on earth bro what's it like you go down and then you go straight. You get to the bottom, there's nowhere. You can't go any further. Whoa. You're so brave. Like, no one cares about the lowest spot.

But everybody cares about the highest spot. That dude went in the Marianas Trench a little while ago. That's different. That was pretty cool. That's in the ocean. Yeah. Yeah, when you go in the ocean, that's any time you're- You're talking about Death Valley or something.

Yeah. What's this like? There's some stupid chimp thing about going to the top branch. Yeah. It's because we associate the highest branches with being safe from the predators. That's the reason why bedrooms have, if you have a house, the master bedroom is almost always on the top floor. And the reason is you want to be above to look down at the potential predators. look down at the potential predators.

Like there's an association, people believe, with chimps and trees and human beings and having like houses that are on the top or the master bedrooms on the top. Look that up, Jamie. That sounds like bullshit to me. It does sound like bullshit. But I've read it. It's not my theory.

This is something I read. I'm thinking the bedrooms being on top comes from the centuries where people lived above their domesticated animals and the heat from the animals rose up and heated their bedroom what farts animal farts animal heat body heat really yeah boy that's an interesting theory if you go to like tibet people live above their their ox yeah that's interesting i would think it would be more of a security thing though i'd like to live in a cave if you're above, people have to get to you

And it's way better strategically to be a pie Sure, and you have a view It's always nice to have a view That's nice You'd like to live in a cave There's a cave for sale in Bisbee, Arizona Where Doug Stanhope lives Oh yeah?

Maybe you'd want to buy it It's a house built into a cave I'd love to go to Bisbee and check that out I want to go before Doug dies I don't know how much longer he's got left I'm hoping he's going to hang in there for a long time. Is he all right? I mean, I know he's a bit of a wild man.

He'll probably live forever. He'll do a Keith Richards. He'll probably be pissing on migraine. But he has hernias. He can lie on his back and flex his stomach and his bulges in his stomach where they pop out in several places. His internal organs are trying to escape from his body cavity. He's got to get that shit sewn up. No, he won't do it.

It's not going to happen. He'll take care of that shit with Budweiser and cigarettes. He's just not going to. A little duct tape, maybe? That's what he always mocks me. He always mocks me. And he goes, how many surgeries have you had, Rogan? I'm like, I've had a fuckload.

He's like, none like i've had a fuckload he's like yeah none that's like his that's his barometer for like who's healthier who's living a healthier life i've been fucking stitched back together again six or seven times why none i resonate with that sometimes you know i see somebody getting hurt some some athlete, and I'm like, yeah, didn't happen to me. Look at me. I'm sitting here safe and sound. You got killed by a surfboard.

I did, and then a gun. If you were like Laird Hamilton, you'd be out there every day looking sleek, all six-packy and shit,

flexing as you're fucking riding the wave. Yeah, I don't know what it would do for me, though. Well, you read that thing

that I wrote for Esquire. I did. The idea of the human body is ultimately a lot like a sandcastle. And that's really, at the end of the day, enjoy it while you've got it. But at the end of the day, it's pretty much pointless. We really are. You know Kubler-Ross's Five Stages of Grief, right? Do you know what I'm talking about?

I've heard the expression but i don't know what they are it's good to it's good to memorize because you see them everywhere the the acronym is dabda d-a-b-d-a so it's denial so this is whether you're like losing your job your marriage you someone close to you's dying or you just got like the pancreatic cancer diagnosis right it's all the same. And you, and some people skip stages and never get to the lower ones, whatever. But the sequence is denial, anger. So denial, like, oh no, there's a mistake. This can't be right.

Right. Then there's anger. Like, why me? That's not fair. I don't smoke. And then there's bargaining. Okay. I look from now on, I'm going to work out right from now on.

I'm going to eat right. I'm going to, and then there? From now on, I'm going to eat right. And then there's depression. And then there's acceptance. Acceptance is if you're lucky enough and evolved enough. And psychedelics, I think, really help get to the acceptance stage. That's why psilocybin is so effective with end-of-life treatment for anxiety. People are facing the end.

They take a psilocybin dose and have an experience. and they're like, I'm not afraid of dying anymore. It's supposed to be one of the most amazing things for people in that. Yeah. It helps them accept this idea. I remember Larry Hagman was talking about that once in this interview that he did on CNN of all places. And they were interviewing him about, you know you know like like times in his life and you know what what what like impactful moments and he said well the the last time i took lsd

and you could tell like the person who's interviewing him who's interviewing him didn't expect that he said well it alleviated my fear of dying. I really no longer worry about death. And he said the experience, whatever he had when he was on LSD, was so profound that it sort of relaxed him, too. And he had that air about him, too, like a guy who was just there. He's there. He's not putting on a show. He's not faking it.

He's just there. He's him. And he lived a fairly sustainable life for a wealthy, famous guy. I believe his house was completely off the grid. He had some house in the Santa Monica Mountains. Yeah, I remember reading something about that. He's dead. I wonder if his house is still available. I'd like to fucking buy Larry Hagman's house.

Yeah. Pretty dope. Better than a cave, probably. Yes. Maybe not, though. Cave would probably be really efficient as far as like keeping you cool. Temperature, same all year round. You know, it's, you can have like grass growing on the roof.

That's pretty dope. Like a hobbit house. Remember they had those big round doors? Yeah. The side of the shire. Well, you know, this thing about fear of death, you were talking earlier about making sex, like restricting access and then using it as a lure to get people to work right yeah so in in civilized to death the last chapter that

i've just written by the way i'm fucking done you're done well i'm in the rewrites now but that's amazing yeah you hit the end of the book so now it's just about editing and rewrites and well you know you know how they say like work expands to fill the space allotted to it well i've been in the u.s for like four years off and on right and like i finally decided no we're going back to spain end of december so the book gets done in november of course of course because you know how to deadline a lot of people say that with a lot of things they do like they they like deadlines because deadlines will force you to fucking just cram that work in and and it eliminates any possibility of excuses if you have a deadline i just blow by deadlines do you yeah it's got to be structural in my life

if it's someone telling me chris it's got to be done by tuesday i'm like yeah whatever that's negotiable but if you're like i I'm moving to Spain in December. All right. And then you finish it in time. Because I got no kids. I got no mortgage. I mean, I do, but it's nothing. And it's like, well, I don't really. Yeah.

I had this conversation with a friend of mine. And obviously, you know, I have kids. And I love having kids. I love my family. I'm very, very, very happy. Couldn't, wouldn't want it any other way. But I had this conversation with my friend who also has a family and also has kids. And we were talking about this guy we know.

I don't want to say his name. He's a successful guy. He's wealthy. He's doing really well. He's a well-loved guy, but he doesn't have any children. And he goes, fucking sad. I go, why is he sad? And he goes, he doesn't have any kids.

Sad. He goes, what's it all for? I go, what's yours all for? I go, what's yours all for? I go, you're going to give it to your kids and they're going to die too. What the fuck difference does it make?

I go, I used to resent that when I didn't have children. I always resented this idea that a meaningful life only involves reproduction. I resent it today and I love my kids.

I resent it. I think that's nonsense. I think you could have a beautiful, meaningful life and never reproduce. You don't need to reproduce. How do you affect the people around you? How do you feel? My family is not just my family of the children I've made and my wife. My family is my friends, the people I love.

Those are my family. Family, put whatever word, you know, call it whatever noise you want to make with your face. But what's important to me is who you love and who you take in and who you surround yourself with. I have this group of amazing, beautiful people that I share time with. And whether they were born out of my wife's pussy or whether they were born out of my wife's pussy or whether they were born out of someone

else's pussy who cares like that this idea that it's only meaningful if you surround yourself with people that came out of you know your own dna i think is it's so it's not just short-sighted it's dangerously egotistical i think it's just it's bad for you it's bad for everybody well i think i think it's it's an avoidance of it's bad for everybody well I think I think it's it's an avoidance of death yeah and that's what I was going to say like you were talking about sex what I argue in in the end of this book is that there's also a mechanism built the same sort of mechanism built around death that we're terrified we're the only we're the only animal that knows it dies right the homo sapien sapien the hominid who knows it knows what do we know

we know we're gonna die so what do we do then we develop all these mechanisms some conscious some not for avoiding thinking about that right and i think civilization is one of them we align ourselves with something bigger than ourselves so you know and there's all this really interesting research on terror management theory it's, where they look at the subconscious mechanisms. When people are reminded of mortality, they react differently to people outside their group. They're much more aggressive and much more aligned with the, you know, the identity of their group and all that. But so that's what I'm arguing. And I think the reason, think about psychedelics, right? And you've heard this a million times.

Every culture that's had access to them has seen them as the greatest gifts of the gods, the greatest, most sacred things that we have. In America, you get busted with a bag of mushrooms at a concert. You go to prison longer than if you kill somebody. Think about that. What does that mean? What the fuck are we so afraid of? If you have a duffel bag filled with mushrooms

and you're selling them at a concert, it is literally possible that you will have a larger prison sentence than if you accidentally kill someone in a street fight. Minimum mandatory sentencing. Right. Second degree murder versus distribution of manslaughter.

Schedule one psychedelics. Yeah. I know a guy who's doing a year. A year for manslaughter. A year. He's doing a year. He shot someone in a road rage incident.

A year. A year. And if he had mushrooms in his car, it'd be 10 years. Yeah. It's very possible. If you're in the wrong place,

the wrong part of the country, the wrong judge. And what do mushrooms do? They give you peace. Or they freak you out depending on how hard wrong place the wrong part of the country the wrong judge and what do mushrooms do they give you peace or they freak you out depending on how how hard you're holding on to it how hard are you holding on those bad trips i've never had a bad trip on mushrooms but i understand where they come from i've had bad trips on weed i've had those over eating yeah. If you eat too much weed, that's... Oh! Especially early in my career as a psychonaut. Yeah, I had some fucking...

Because like we were talking about before, they make sprays now, ladies and gentlemen. I just want to be honest. I'm not entirely sober right now. A little... Before the show, I had a little spray under my tongue. And they make stuff that's too fucking strong. Joey Diaz, who's the savage of all savages, what he does is he'll take a 500 milligram THC candy,

which, you know what I like? I like 20. I like 20. 20 is a good dose. Before I go on stage, I like a 20. It's not strong It's light It's a little fun

A little happy He'll take a fucking 500 And then he takes a wrapper For a cheap Or a lower dose And he puts the 500 In the lower dose wrapper And he gives them to people

See that's not cool That's not cool To him it's cool. He loves it. He loves dosing people. I'm very against that. I mean, I spent a lot of time around psychedelics, and that's the one thing that I could never forgive. Have you ever heard Duncan's story about Joey?

Joey gave Duncan some fucking cookie of death, And it was just unbelievably powerful. And he told Duncan, you know, how strong is this? It's not that bad. Just eat it. Eat it. So Duncan eats it. An hour later, he is at his home

in a fucking tornado of terror, just spiraling, freaking out. And then he gets a phone call. And it's Joey Diaz. He goes, welcome to my world, motherfucker. It's a phone call. And it's Joey Diaz. He goes, welcome to my world, motherfucker.

Well, I guess if it's coming from Joey Diaz, you should know better. That's the guy, though. I mean, that's just Joey's. That's what you get when you do it with Joey. Yeah. I love that guy. I'm so happy I know him. So happy he exists.

I've had one bad. Well, bad. he exists. I've had one bad trip. Well, bad. I mean, I've had crazy shit happen. You know, like probably I've told you the story about when I got stung by the scorpion when I was tripping. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I've had, and I thought I was going to die, right? Yeah. But that ended up being a really good experience.

But the last time I did acid, I did a heroic dose. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Yeah. Last time I did acid, I did a heroic dose. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Yeah. And it ended, I won't go through the whole story, but it ended with me wandering onto the grounds of a psychiatric hospital. Like a magnet to the metal filings.

Exactly. And I heard all these weird voices and I hid under this rhododendron bush. And it turned out that they were the patients taking a walk and they were like wandering the grounds. And I'm like cowering under this rhododendron bush, like having cried and lost my shirt. And, you know, I was just a fucking mess. I had like dirt in my face. Thank God they didn't find me. I'd still be there.

They'd fucking lock you up. Yeah. This crazy bastard. I'm a doctor. My name is Chris Ryan. I wrote a book about sex. No, not that Chris Ryan. The other Chris Ryan.

Nolan Ryan, the pitcher? Oh, my God. You know about that research where they, I think it was at Yale, in a psychiatry residence, the teacher said, okay, the project is this weekend you have to go out. There were like six or seven students. Right. The project is this weekend you have to go out. There were like six or seven students had to go out and check themselves into a psychiatric hospital. Separate different ones. Right. Saying that they were hearing voices that were telling them to hurt themselves.

Check in and then spend the night and then the next day explain the situation and come back. None of them could get out because they wouldn't believe because they're like no listen i'm a medical student i go to yale my professor this was a project no not one of them could get out whoa so how'd they get them out because the professor went oh my god because the professor knew that was going to happen right wow because he's like it was to show like how helpless psychiatric patients are. Because even when they're telling you the truth, you don't believe them. Well, isn't that always the case when everyone's being accused of anything? You feel guilty even if you're not.

I've been pulled over before and been stone cold sober, especially before I was famous, and worried that I'm not sober. That I did something wrong like the cops like what did i do what did i do and you start going through your rolodex of shit that you might have done but he didn't do anything and that's where you get the false confessions a lot of times well listen if you put enough pressure on people especially if you lock them up and like this is what the fuck is going on with guantanamo bay they just released this guy that just was in there for 14 years and had a story a story about a man being beaten. And he was fucking innocent.

He didn't do anything. They had no charges. There was no reason to detain him. Just suspicion. And suspicion is a very weird thing. Because if I suspect you, what are you plotting, Chris Ryan? You come on my podcast, but I think you've got an alternative intention. There's something going on behind your eyes. I see

It out I'll figure. Oh you're here for my fucking free coffee You know like when people start like accusing you of things you start wondering about your own intentions You start like we exist in some sort of a strange state where we're constantly in Seeking approval we seek approval from each other. Yeah. And we, we like to live in at least some somewhat of a state of harmony with our neighbors and our friends and our community.

And when someone is pointing to you at being a disruptor of harmony in some way, shape or form, you know, like if you're in a relationship, I've had friends that have been in relationships like, man, my fucking girlfriend, she's always accusing me of doing this and accusing me of

doing that i'm like you gotta get break up with her because that that'll that'll you'll get sucked into that world yeah you will get sucked into her world of anxiety and craziness and you'll become something different than you are now you'll become what she's accusing you of being if you if you don't become that you at the very least be a mess yeah because you're constantly defending yourself like I'm just gonna deal with it I'll go home I'll talk to her like this is the the that is the embodiment that is the definition of a codependent relationship right like you're you're allowing her to be this accusatory person or he you know allow a woman with a man same thing it hasn't it's not sex dependent or gender dependent, but it's this weird thing that happens to people when

someone starts pointing at you and saying, you know what, Chris, you're just a fucking asshole. You know, you, you just, you don't care about anybody but yourself. And you're like, do I? God damn it. You start having to look at yourself and go, is this true? And if someone says it enough, you'll start to think it's true. You'll start to believe it. So if you get a guy and you lock him up in some fucking cage and every day you tell him that he's a criminal and every day you tell him you're a terrorist, you're plotting with ISIS, you're at a, you fucking put an orange jumpsuit in them and then he does want to kill you.

And then before you know it, their fucking memory is so distorted and twisted by years of beatings and you're feeding them dog food and kicking them in the dick. Who is that guy anymore? 14 years in Guantanamo Bay and they let him go? I would be amazed if he doesn't become a terrorist now. Yeah. I would be amazed.

Yeah. There's no better breeding ground for terrorists than a terrorist in prison. Or criminals. A prison camp, yeah. Then prison. Yeah. Look at our criminal justice system it's a mess it's not about helping

anyone it's not about reducing crime it's just responding to some primordial revenge fantasy yeah which we know perfectly doesn't work yeah especially for shit like nonviolent crimes which is a giant percentage of our prisons yeah I mean that is like

one of the sickest aspects of our culture that we have more people in prison than all the countries in the world. Yeah. There's no one in any other country. Including police states. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

It's fucking crazy. It's the land of the free, right? Home of the brave. That's right. America. Yeah. America. America.

And you're going to go to France and sit in a cafe. Spain. Spain. Spain. Same shit. Oh, I thought you were talking about me personally. Well, you're going to go to France and sit in a cafe. Spain. Spain. Same shit. Oh, I thought you were talking about me personally. Well, you are going to go to Spain and escape our beautiful country here. I'm going to Colombia first, though, I think. I'm going to go hang on my friend's yacht in the Caribbean for a while.

Just hang with that dude. See if he'll let you stay. He's a baller. Yeah, I know. If I were really ballsy, because he's doing Christmas with his family elsewhere, and I know that yacht is sitting in the British Virgin Islands empty right now with the crew. But just your luck, you'll get on it by yourself, and that's when the pirates will come. Them planning on kidnapping him. And I'll defend it, you know?

You'll be like, I'm Chris Ryan. I'm an author. I'm not a billionaire. Exactly. We saw your TED Talk. You are are wealthy the dead is only for the rich it's good yeah fucking yachts are weird in that sense in that if you have one like man it's beautiful and it's amazing but people look at that floating fucking thing and that's a bank that's like a floating bank inside of it there's money you just got to figure out how to extract it and if you can grab one of those people that's inside of it and take them and whisk them away and then contact the other people and say, hey, you got to give me some of that money if you want one of these people

back. But on the other hand, a yacht this big, if you take someone off that yacht, you're going to have some serious guys come and looking for you. It's not like a couple old people on a sailboat. Yeah, but if you're in, like, Mexico, they can't find El Chapo. If you can't get to El Chapo, how are you going to do it on a yacht? Yeah, you buy that shit about El Chapo and the tunnel. I don't buy that. What do you mean you don't buy it? I don't believe he escaped through the tunnel.

Why is that? Because you don't. Look, he's world famous for being the dude who builds tunnels. Okay? Well before they caught him. I didn't know he was famous for being the dude who builds tunnels. Okay. Well before they caught him. I didn't know he was famous for being a dude who built tunnels. Oh, yeah. He's the dude who has all these tunnels under the border with the train tracks and all that.

Right. So that's how he's like this major smuggler. Right. Right. So he's the tunnel dude. And he's got all these teams of engineers who are great at building tunnels and they're always finding them in San Diego and all this. Right.

So you finally catch the dude after he's already escaped right from the other one five years ago or whatever that was you finally catch the dude again you put him in the most secure prison in Mexico number one super max Mexican prison and dudes are building a tunnel with power tools into the prison, and you don't hear it and don't expect it and don't think about it, and they're at some fucking construction site a mile outside of the wall of the prison, then you're not checking that bullshit. Give me a fucking break. This guy paid off the prison guards.

That's why they're all arrested now. Paid off the head of the prison. Paid off the senators and the governors and probably the president. And then they built the tunnel to give a viable story for the dipshits like us to listen to and say, oh, he escaped through the tunnel. No, he didn't. He walked out the fucking front door and got into a limo. Give me a break.

But they need the tunnel. He definitely got out through the tunnel. There's video of it. There's security video. But they need the tunnel. He definitely got out through the tunnel. There's video of it. There's security video. But I agree with you on all the other aspects of it. Who gave us the security video of him going behind that little wall and crouching down and disappearing? Who gave us that video? But it took a year

to get him through the tunnel. I mean, the tunnel exists. Yeah, it exists as a story. Oh, that's so strange. You're a conspiracy theorist. That's the dumbest conspiracy ever the actual tunnel exists but that doesn't mean he used it that means it exists so that we'll say oh he got out through the tunnel what a then we won't look at all the people he paid off i feel like i'm talking eddie bravo this is this is crazy of course he's he paid off some people but i think

he paid off some people to allow him to build a tunnel i I think that's the Occam's razor point of view. Yeah, I don't think so. I think the Occam's razor point of view is with the amount of corruption that we know exists in the Mexican government that he paid people off. The guy's got billions of dollars. He paid people off. They said, OK, but we got to, like, come up with some cover story. We can't just, you know, let you walk out the front door because then it's obvious that you paid us off because there's no other you know explanation so we make up this story of how oh well okay have them build a tunnel that'll take a couple of months fine they build the tunnel we say you

went out through the tunnel we'll leave this fucking evidence and whatever the little motorbike and all this bullshit and that's the story that's the way they do this shit well the tunnel was a mile long and they say it took a year. They say it took a year to build. Yeah. Because it had electricity in it. It had ventilation. It had an electric bike. Like, he hopped on an electric bike and shot down to the end of that thing.

You don't buy it. I don't buy it. In Mexico, you just fucking pay people off. That's the way it works. The securest building in Mexico. That is like saying the prettiest gorilla. You know, the secure, the most secure prison in Mexico. Mexican prisons are pretty cool, actually.

If you're going to go to prison, Mexico is a good place. If you have a little money. Oh, if you have money. If you have a little money, you don't need a lot. But like, because in Mexican prisons, you know, like your wife can come visit and stay with you. You can have like good food. People can bring you food. You can get cigarettes.

You can watch TV. It's not like American where like you're going to be in a sterile environment. In Mexico, there's a lot of, they're porous. There's a lot of stuff. You have to stay there. But your wife can come. Your girlfriend can come. Hookers can come.

Hookers? Yeah. Really? Wow. Yeah. Wasn't that one of the things that they had been upset about him in the previous incarceration, that he had been bringing in prostitutes? Yeah.

He had parties. Well, he ran the prison. Yeah. Yeah. But he got out of that one, too, right? How did he get out of that one? Like helicopters or some shit? Well, they said he went out through the laundry, I think it was, like in a laundry thing.

Yeah. Well, there was a story recently, and we were actually talking about this in a previous podcast, that they had come very close to catching him within the last couple weeks, and then he broke his leg. Jumping out a window or something? Yeah. Yeah, they said they believe he broke his leg. Yeah.

And he was wished away by his security guards. El Chapo. Who knows? Yeah. He was wished away by his security guards. El Chapo. Who knows? It's just terrifying that this gigantic organized crime empire has built out of the drug war. Because of prohibition, it's no different than Al Capone during the alcohol prohibition that we had. Yeah. It's really interesting, right?

Yeah. Well, it's the same mechanism we've been talking about all afternoon, right? It's a pressure. You repress it, the pressure builds. It's like a steam engine or an internal combustion engine. You create pressure, no release, and then use the energy of the release for your own purposes. Yeah, it just finds a way out, right? It finds a little valve. Like my poor girl with her shaved vagina.

The girl from high school. What cries a girl? her shaved vagina the girl from high school the poor repressed girl that girl was also, this is the first girl that I ever met that told me that she liked it when her boyfriend hit her that was real, because we worked together too and we were working together and she was crying to me that this guy that she was dating beat her, the same guy who shaved her pussy.

He went whole hog. This crazy dude. But that he had hit her. And and she's like, you know, it's fucked up, though. I like it. And I was like, whoa. Like, I remember thinking, like, I don't even know where to begin with this. I go, you like it?

She goes, some part of it. I don't know what the fuck it is. It just turns me on. Yeah. Well, I mean, that relates to what we were saying earlier. Like, we don't know what the fuck it is it just turns me on yeah well that i mean that relates to what we're saying earlier like we don't choose what we want we don't choose what feels good things feel good i mean there's a i mean this is really a fucked up thing to talk about but it's real um one of the reasons that rape is so psychologically damaging to women is a lot of women come when they're being raped

yeah so they're that imagine the schism that that creates in your own experience where you're like one part of you is saying this is the worst fucking violation that's ever happened and this guy has you know is a monster and your body's coming yeah like what the fuck and see i think that's similar to what we were talking about with these little boys who are having experiences that get sealed as a pleasurable experience in one way even though later they look back on it and say that was a violation and a crime and sexuality is such a very very strange thing because it's not just about reproducing it's there's psychological aspects to it there's sociological aspects to it there's forbidden things that become more appealing because of it yeah it's so strange

what what what exists with human beings and that it doesn't exist at all in any of the animal world this idea of being conscious and being aware and of also contemplating all the variables and that this sort of combines together with the biological needs of reproduction and it creates this really potent confusing cocktail of ideas that gets i mean that's one of the reasons why it's so offensive when you you find out uh that someone that you know uh has uh either been raped or someone that you know has either been raped or someone that you know has been accused of raping someone and they didn't do it or that someone that you know has been involved somehow in a rape like they were a part of a rape or they maybe were in a gangbang rape or something it's just like whoa

my whole world's been thrown upside down like this idea of what people can and can't do to each other. It's so crazy. It's human beings like forcing themselves on other human beings is so strange. And then when you hear how many women have a rape fantasy, well, you're like, well, well, fuck Jesus Christ. That's what you want. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's what I enjoy thinking about. Well, what the fuck does that mean? Do you want to get raped or no? No. No, definitely not. Right. But I fantasize about it. It makes me come. What?

Yeah. What are you saying? Like, my buddy was having sex with his girlfriend once, and she admitted while they're having sex that what she really wants is a bunch of black guys to come over and just fuck the shit out of her against her will, hold her down. And he said he never thought about it the same way again. He was fucked. The relationship was done.

He couldn't handle it. She just wanted big, muscular black eyes to come over and just fuck the shit out of her. Just hold her. Shut up, bitch! And just... And she didn't really want it to happen, but she wanted it to happen.

In her head, that was the fantasy. The the fancy like when she would be alone knows there She would lock her bedroom door and masturbate she would be thinking about getting raped Like in some crazy way like that she wanted that she didn't want a relationship with that guy She didn't want that guy to nuzzle her take care of her and cuddle and watch Netflix No, she wanted that guy's cum in her body to make some super potent child birthed out of violence. Hey, animal passion, man. That's fucked up, right?

They're the last remnants of that. Yeah, well, I don't know if they're the last remnants, but I mean, UFC fighting, what's that? That's animal passion. That's animal basic. I know there's art to it, and the way you look at it is different than the way I look at it. But I look at it, and I see two dudes unleashing the inner beast. It's hard to argue.

Or two women, in the case of the women. But what about these cases you read about every once in a while, where a dude goes to a woman's house at night and she thinks it's her husband and they have sex and then she finds out it was just some guy what yeah every couple of years you read one of these cases where like some guys like he just walks into a house and has sex with a woman and she's and then she's like wait a minute you're not my husband those things seem unbelievable to me but i've seen them several times well weirder things can happen especially if you're in a situation where like maybe your neighbor has been thinking

about fucking your wife forever or the postman and they're like maybe they know your schedule he doesn't come home until nine every night he he works this shift and I can just get in there on Tuesdays because that's when he's not there. Give her the dick. I know twins who did that. Really? Yeah. Oh, that seems more likely.

Yeah. There's also a problem with sleeping pills, man. Oh, yeah. Ambien. Ambien. Ambien is fucking dangerous. That'll take you out. Yeah.

That's fucking very, very dangerous. I've had a bunch of friends have some really bizarre experiences like one of my buddies woke up in the car Driving somewhere and realized what he was doing He had already gotten in the car and was already driving and was on some sort of weird autopilot when he realized that he was driving Somewhere. Yeah, that's heavy. It's very scary because someone can do things to you I'm sure while you're under the influence of sleeping pills, and you would probably just accept it or think it was a part of your dream or what.

But when you're taking something that forces you into that state, we're monkeying with the mind in sort of a strange way. And these companies that make these pills will have you believe that it's safe. It's because you don't die. So if you don't die, they'll that it's safe and it's because you don't die So if you don't die the label it is safe look he we woke him up Or he woke up in the morning, and we checked his heart rate. Everything's fine his blood plate, and how you feel Chris I feel great. Well. I had a wonderful night's sleep and being this safe. Mm-hmm. It's safe

Yeah, but it's not necessarily safe. I mean whether it's safe. There's Possible potential repercussions for doing that shit. And one of them is that something happens to you while you're doing it. I think El Chapo was on Ambien. You think so? That's what happened. Maybe aliens abducted him. Look, this is how fucking easy it is to come in here and talk to you, all right?

I came in thinking, I don't know what we're going to talk about. We just talked a month ago. I don't have anything new to talk about. So I made a couple of notes. Haven't gotten either one of them. Well, we always have new to talk about. So I made a couple of notes. Haven't gotten either one of them. We always have shit to talk about. You really worry about that? Well, I feel bad. I mean, if it's just you and me hanging out and

Jamie, that's fine. But if there are a million people listening in, they're like, that asshole was just on there a few weeks ago. I don't want to hear his shit again. Don't worry about those people. Can't think about that. Those people are really nice, actually. Most of them are nice. The vast majority. Yeah yeah i mean like you know everyone talks about how the internet brings out the asshole and everybody right but like the the people who you know go to the trouble of rating

my podcast or putting you know comments they're fucking beautiful yeah like if i'm feeling down i go read them like oh you guys love's beautiful. Well, you're giving them something for free that's awesome. You know? It's a cool exchange. It's awesome sometimes. But it's a cool exchange, you know? Yeah. Actually, I think I might have mentioned the last time I was on that, you know, you and Duncan had sort of, you know, when we get together and talk about the future, I'm like the, oh, it sucks.

That's where I'm going to die. But I read this book called future perfect by Steven Johnson. And, uh, I, I got a bunch of books that I was going to trash, right? Like there's the rational optimist by Matt Ridley. And there are a couple of books that are all like, Oh, everything's great. And I was like, okay, I'll respond to these arguments because obviously I'm making a different argument. So I should acknowledge them. So I trashed Matt Ridley. I trashed Steven Pinker.

I trashed some other people. And then I read this Future Perfect, and it's like, fuck, this guy's right. He's right. He makes really good arguments. power of unfiltered media that's happening that's unleashed by the internet creating these emergent peer networks that never could have existed before so good ideas can spread really quickly and get capital really quickly if it's a you know business sort of money distribution kind of thing and therefore things can change like i'm thinking i'm looking back at every civilization that's ever existed and they fail fail they all collapse and they all follow the

same patterns but there wasn't this sort of immediate world global mind and now there is and as i said earlier you know homo sapiensiens, the hominid that knows it knows. What does it know? It knows it's going to die. The first thing that consciousness becomes aware of is its own mortality, right? So what I'm hoping is that when this global mind clicks on, as I think it's happening right now, that's when we become aware of our mortality as a species and as a planet. And maybe there's some like radical transformative power in that. And we'll all end up living like Joe Rogan in a hundred years.

I definitely think there's a radical transformative power of the instant exchanging of ideas and information because the good ideas, they get vetted out. Like everybody's ideas get discussed and bandied about. And even, you know, podcast ideas, like there's some ideas that people uh you know throw out on podcasts and they get debated and everybody gets there's so much intensity and so much you know discussion and debate about who's right and who's wrong and it's because i think one of the reasons why people have so much of a vested interest in these things is they recognize the significance of exposing ideas for what they truly are and trying to figure out which ones are good and which ones are bad.

And also the repercussions of living in a world filled with bad ideas and bad assumptions that we're all acting on. And we've all, I mean, whether it's racism or homophobia or the fucking Federal Reserve or the fucking two party system, all these things. All these things we know by virtue of examining all the facts. Like, God, this is not the best way to do this. But this is the system that we're stuck with. So when we're making communities, and even if they're open-ended online communities of people exchanging ideas, they're still kind of communities. Like people I talk with on Twitter or people that I read their Facebook

posts, there is a community to that because we are exchanging information. We all communicating with each other, right? And there's a community that comes with podcasts as well. I mean, the people that are listening to this right now, the millions of people that will get a hold of this conversation, they're a part of a community. And whether or not they agree or disagree or hate or love, they're still in somehow or another, they're still in some way communing with each other. We're talking and communicating and everybody has this ability now to exchange ideas and the good ones sort of resonate and because of that i think we can exchange ideas and evolve ideas and and evolve our own perceptions of things in a much much much quicker way than ever before and ever in the history of the human race that's one of the reasons why i'm so optimistic yeah and i agree with you and that's what this book really he really gets into that and examples of it what's

it called it's called future perfect. And the author is Steven Johnson. And like, he talks about Kickstarter and how, you know, Kickstarter two years after it was launched, it was already funding more art than the national endowment for the arts. Wow. You know,

in two years. And, uh, I mean, I, you know, you're talking about how things resonate and, and they happen

quicker and i think another aspect of it is that until now the ideas that became powerful had to have market appeal you had to be able to make money from it somehow whereas now like here you are here we push this button this i mean it costs nothing to produce these things these podcasts right they go out if the idea is, a million people hear about it. That resonates further. It doesn't matter if it's a sellable idea. It just matters if it's a good idea. Whereas before when all the media was controlled by companies that needed to be making money somehow, it had to have that commercial appeal. Well, a lot of times people wouldn't even venture into something like this unless they thought that it was profitable.

Right. You know, when I got into this, I did it entirely just for fun. I think it's one of the reasons why it's been successful is that I had no ulterior motive at all. Like, it was just fun. I just thought, I have fun. And we started doing these a long time ago on a platform called Justin.TV. We were doing from the green room. I remember Justin.TV.

We would stream from a laptop card. I used to have this Verizon card. I was taking my laptop. We'd stream from green rooms in between shows. And it would just be us fucking around and talking to the camera. And maybe we'd answer questions or something like that if there was a chat. And there was never a thought like, hey, this is going to be really profitable someday. So let's make sure that our guests are only really acceptable mainstream guests that we know are going to get a lot of attention.

Right. And sometimes I'll get complaints about that. Like, how come you keep having your friends or some hunter dude or some comedian or a fighter that i don't know how come you can't get how come you can't get obama mark maron got obama you know how come how come you don't get steven spielberg well fucking i'm not even trying how about that i just want to have conversations if i really wanted to have a conversation with obama i don't know even know if it is possible because i think if the fucking secret service listened to any of the shit that i've said before that probably

yeah i'd probably be removed from the the discussion but i i mean i feel like there's some people that i probably could talk to that i'm not drawn to that i'm not drawn to them i'm not i'm not interested in it but if i am interested in it. But if I am interested in them, I'll pursue them. There's some famous people that I find fascinating. I would love to talk to them. Werner Herzog, dude. Yeah. But not just because they're famous.

No. But if you have a talk show, like if you have a Tonight Show or something along those lines, you can't do a show like that unless you have famous people on. That's the whole model. Right. That's the only way to do it. And it's someone pitching something, right? Exactly. And you don't get to choose. That's the whole model. Right. That's the only way to do it. And it's someone pitching something, right? Exactly.

And you don't get to choose. That's the other problem. If you're the host of one of those shows and you're a part of some multimedia conglomerate like NBC or Universal or whatever the fuck it is, they're going to bring you all these people. This is Mike blah, blah, blah. He's got this fucking Fast and Furious 47 coming out.

And you've got to have that guy out. What was it like on the set working with Michelle Rodriguez? Oh, man. She's crazy. First of all, we're just like a tight-knit family when we film this film. It's amazing. And I've got a real big thanks out to Steven Spielberg for producing. You know, like, all that bullshit. The crew is great. It's nonsense. It's nonsense.

And that's all you're ever going to get in these little seven-minute sound bites in between commercials. You do the seven minutes. We'll be right back. All right. And then you go to commercial and then fucking Ty, Toyota, woo, blah, blah, blah. A bill of fire. Do you feel depressed?

And then next thing you know, bam, new guest with their new top 40 song, I Love Apples. And they fucking sing their stupid song. And then, all right, thanks for coming. We'll be back next week with Tom Cruise. We got Oprah Winfrey. We got, got you know it's like the applause the applause signs kim kardashian all right and you know you're gonna watch these famous heads say nothing say nonsense and that's all those shows are and that's one of the reasons why those shows are they they they they're an old it's an old model and i think that model is not going to work in this new world this new world of computers and the internet and phones and this new world wants real information

they want to know who the fuck are you you know like you or don't like you you're you right chris ryan is chris ryan every time i've seen you talk you're you and that's what people like that's what resonates They know whether or not they agree with you or disagree with you They know that where you're coming from is a place of honest consideration And I try to do that as well everything I try to do I try whether I'm right or I'm wrong if I Get it wrong or I'm clunky or I'm coming I'm not trying to be anything other than who I am You know and I think we're all in this together and we're all learning and evolving and growing and expanding our ideas together

And I think one of the beautiful things about podcasts is that you get to share this with other people There's a lot of people right now that might be listening to this in a truck on the way to somewhere And they got fucking three hours to go and there and they're thinking about shit And it's enriching their ideas, and they're expanding their own ideas because of it. Maybe they're adding something in their head. They're thinking, you know what? These guys are right, but you know what else? What about this?

And then they have their own idea from that and maybe that can become a fucking business opportunity for them or a book that they write or they start their own podcast. I've gotten fucking hundreds and hundreds of messages from people that said they started their own podcast from listening to this and that alone yeah who knows yeah you could nail some fucking podcast and that podcast might be the best thing that anybody's ever heard before and it might all come out of you hearing tangentially speaking right or the duncan trussell family hour or whatever and i think that in that sense like everybody has a voice now you know in some really unique way that never existed before and what you were saying about like the guy in

the truck as you were saying that i was thinking one of the things that i really like we were earlier talking about radio lab and i said i was sort of i found it sort of annoying how produced it is and i think one of the things that's cool about your show, my show, Duncan's show, these conversational shows that aren't highly produced and edited, is that that guy in the truck, he's listening to us have a conversation in real time. So it's really easy for him to imagine himself participating. Whereas if you're listening to something where everything's cut and real tight and you know controlled you can't insert yourself into that world because that's not a real world maybe that's why i like radio lab it's because i'm so used to this and i do this so often i'm doing this three times sometimes four times even we've done five a week on some weeks that when i go to something like radio lab i can

just sit down and absorb the information and also because i think it's so good it's great there's so much subject matter is amazing it's incredible yeah but i could see your point like sometimes it annoys me when they edit like someone's in the middle of talking and then they'll explain in a paraphrased way what that guy actually wound up saying well how about you let him say it right like why do you have to chime in are we missing 10 15 seconds of his explanation is it too verbose like why you got to cut in? But they're doing it because they kind of like doing that. They like being clever with the sound. That's their art.

I mean, they're creating this thing. Like, one of my all-time favorites is Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. Oh, it's amazing. Have you heard the newest one? Uh-uh. Oh, good Lord. It might be his best ever. It just came down like a week ago.

Just out. What's it about? About the Assyrians. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, it's good. He's great. Oh, be his best ever. It just came down like a week ago. Just out. What's it about? About the Assyrians. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's good. He's great. Oh, he's the best.

And you've had him on your show, right? Yes. I love that guy. He's a fucking national treasure. He makes people think about history in a way where it's exciting and you could digest it. Yeah. I was taking a walk the other day and i was listening to one of his um the series about world war one oh yeah and yeah it's amazing something of doom

yeah um no um the prophets of doom i think was the one about um it's like a seven seven part series and each one's two or three hours long but as i was i was listening i was thinking how because i used to think history was boring right when i was i was listening i was thinking how because i used to think history was boring right when i was in high school i was like oh fucking history class blueprint for armageddon that's what that's it yeah all about world war one oh my god incredible shit and like the way he tells the story and the details the research is like this is the most interesting shit i can imagine listening to. Yeah. And history was boring.

How hard do you have to work to make this boring? Well, I think there's a difference between his, I mean, it's one of the reasons why he makes the distinction that he's not a historian. Yeah. You know, he's like, and although I do consider him one, he won't consider himself one because he's so humble. but what he's doing is he's adding this the the dramatic flair of a professional broadcaster and a really excellent one and a really excellent entertainer yeah and he's he's distributing how to use his voice oh yeah he's so good dramatically with his paws when he quotes you know he changes his voice yeah that's fucking good the new one's even better than the other ones i think he's getting better yeah scary as that sounds and daniele bolelli now is in the

ring that's history on fire yeah he was just here he was just here on friday yeah fucking love that guy and his new podcast is really excellent too the beginning the first one is just like so it's about a story and uh that he had actually told me on the podcast. And I remember saying, what the fuck? The rebellion. I don't want to explain it to anybody because I don't want to blow any of the suspense and the craziness of the first story. But not zero, zero, which is kind of when he's explaining it. But episode one.

Yeah. Fuck, that story is so twisted. When you find out what people were capable of doing to each other just a few hundred, a thousand, two thousand years ago. Dude, right now we're blowing up people in Yemen. I mean, and they say only 10% of the people who get blown up are the ones we're aiming at. Oh, yeah. 90% are innocent bystanders.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, this- Drones. In this book I'm almost finished with now, the argument is that civilization is sick. Right? Civilization itself is a sick system, partly because it's built on the repression of natural urges and then, you know, all this distortion and all that. So when you look at, like, all these stories that, you know, people are talking about, World War I, we don't even know what they're fighting about.

Right. All these stories that people are talking about, World War I, we don't even know what they're fighting about. And they're poisoning each other and they're blowing shit up and they're destroying the landscape and it's dropping tons of munitions and all this shit. Or Columbus, when Columbus landed, the letter he wrote back to the queen when he first landed in Hispaniola was like, these people are so beautiful and they're so generous. If you express admiration for anything, they just give it to you and there's food everywhere and fish everywhere and fruit and they're beautiful.

They swim and they're half naked and they're lovely, lovely people. With 50 soldiers, we can enslave the entire population. It's like, who's civilized here? Yeah. You know, the guy who's like, fuck you and he's cutting off people's hands because they're not bringing them enough gold.

And there is no gold. And then they're setting the dogs on them and watching them rip their guts out and slamming babies against trees. Yeah. Were the civilized ones? Well, that was all explained in really great detail by some religious person that was involved with that. Right. Bartolome de las Casas. casas yeah yeah what was his position what would he was a Jesuit and he wrote the conquest no that was the conquest of New Spain was Diaz that's a

really interesting book that's about the Aztec thing where you know they went and took over Montezuma but de las Casas was a Jesuit who saw this happening and wrote all these treaties, treatises or essays decrying the treatment of the natives. And his point was like, they're human beings and we're not treating them like human beings. And then Sepulveda argued they're not human beings. They don't have souls so we're free to do what we want and they had this famous debate at the vatican between those two perspectives like are they human or not are they you know do are we justified in treating them like animals and uh de las casas won but didn't matter you know my question is it's

pretty much universally accepted that columbus was a cunt yeah in that he was a horrible evil person but how did it take us until 2015 before we recognize that how the fuck did that guy get a monday well how did he get a day off i mean the same same reason the fucking those heads are carved into the black hills in south dakota right it's like it was what we were saying earlier a a system wants, as if it's a living thing, a system adopts the subsystems that perpetuate it. So- That's a good way of describing it.

You know, you're an expansive empire system, so you celebrate those who expanded the empire. Doesn't matter if they were cunts, right? Because what they did is something that served the interest of the system and so what i'm trying to get at in this book is that what serves the interest of the system is not what serves the interest of the individuals within the system so the fact that you know people often say, obviously the human race is amazing because, you know, so successful because look, there's 7 billion of us now and there were only 100 million 500 years ago, whatever it is. And my argument is like, well, wait a minute.

Like, there are way more prisoners in America now than there were 50 years ago. Does that mean prisoners are thriving? Right. You know, the fact that there are more of a given species doesn't mean that that individuals within that species are living better than previously not at all it's also the same sort of logic that would say well obviously being a king and being royal is special and these are special people that's why they have power over all these other people like no well the people just don't have any power right there's only you you're the king like that's a stupid way of looking at it.

And the system gives you that power, and you just happen to have been plugged into that spot. Yeah. And the idea that this is the only way to do things, well, that's just because we are the best version. If you want to look at America as far as productivity and innovation, and we're the best version right now currently on this planet. But that doesn't mean this is the best way to do it. And it doesn't mean that if we found a planet somewhere that was filled with human beings that spoke a language that we could all understand, but they just lived fucking way more harmonious than us.

They had no garbage. Everything was completely recycled. There was never any waste. They kept a very strict understanding of their environment and what they were doing to it and how many babies they had and how they treated each other. And they never allowed poverty to exist. They never allowed extreme depression or any of these things that we have that we just push aside or throw pills at or fucking put fences up for.

We would go, oh my God, we're retarded. Why didn't we live like this? We could live like this in small, sustainable groups like these tribes that we were talking about. We're talking about the way they would take care of the village and that everybody would take care of each other and they'd live in these harmonious communities. And it's not saying they don't have disputes.

It's not saying they don't disagree about things because all people are constantly debating about ideas and they all have their own unique and different perspectives. But when we get to this gigantic group, whether it's 300 million in America or 7 billion worldwide, there's this massive diffusion of responsibility for the residual effects of our civilization. Cigarettes out the window and fucking poop in the ocean or whatever it is. Yeah. Like we somehow or another don't feel responsible for all that. Although ultimately it comes from humans.

If we found some group that had figured that out, we found some planet that was filled with people that didn't have anything that we don't have. They had computers, they had cars, but they had figured all this other shit out and they had just, they just said, well, this is more important than anything else we're doing. Let's, let's engineer this first. Right. Let's figure this out first. We would realize that we're living like apes with phones and guns.

That's what we're- Yeah. I had this joke, and part of the joke was about if we went to the zoo or went to the Congo, we found some rare spot in the Congo, and we ran into these chimps, and they had figured out cell phones and rocket launchers, but all they were doing was taking pictures of their dicks and shooting each other in the face. We'd be like, what the fuck are you guys doing? But that is us. That is us.

That is what we're doing. It's true. I mean, we're not only taking pictures of our dicks and only shooting each other in the face, but we're doing a lot of it. There's a lot of dick pics, and there's a lot of people getting shot in the face. And a lot of it is by robots that are flying around the sky killing 90% of the wrong people. Well, sex and military are the two main drivers of economics, right? I mean, yeah.

E.O. Wilson said, he's a great biologist. He said, humans are, the tragedy of humanity is that we have stone Age instincts, medieval institutions, and godlike powers, technology. That's a beautiful way of describing it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a mess. Yeah. I mean, what you described, like, oh, we go to this planet and find these people.

That's very similar to the story that is told over and over and over again at first contact between civilized people and native people. Now, when I say native people, keep in mind, I look at the Aztecs or the Incas. They're civilized, right? It's not European, but they're living in hierarchical, large-scale civilizations, agricultural civilizations. Right, they're native, right. Yeah, they're native right yeah they're native but they might not know about a lot of the things that the europeans knew about and they but they've got kings and slaves and all that shit so i'm not so because a lot of times people would be like oh man you know the fucking aztecs ripped their hearts i'm not the aztecs are the

same as the spaniards right i'm talking about native low scale uh low scale hunter gatherer bands where everybody knows each other. Right. Nomadic. Right. Indigenous tribal people. Oftentimes they live in jungles and things where there's a lot of food, a lot of resources and there's no fight for resource. Yeah. Because the population is harmonious and it's steady. Right. Right. You know, there are all sorts of reasons for that that but that's the story you get again and again in this book i quote this um this jesuit who lived with the montigny indians in what's now quebec and he says like you know they really enjoy life and they're not worried about dying they're not worried about being hungry because they say the world provides for them they look around they're like, there's food everywhere. And he says, like, I tried to talk to them. If they get a beaver,

they have a feast. Even if, you know, the guys next door got a beaver and they're having a feast too. And if they get three beavers, they'll have three feasts and they just eat till everything's gone. And when I say to them, like, why don't you save something for tomorrow? They say, well, we'll catch something tomorrow. And they're like, well, what if you don't? Well, then we'll be hungry. Don't worry. I mean, it's no big deal. There's always enough.

Well, they lived in a different world, too, where there wasn't this massive fucking quantity of human beings that are literally pulling everything out of the land. Yeah. So you need that huge population to support the scarcity mindset. To support the scarcity mindset. Well, here's one good example of information being distributed and how it's benefiting even the environment here in North America. At the turn of the century, there was a point in time where we had wiped out like a giant majority of the game animals on this planet. Because just like they did with the buffalo, they just fucking slaughtered the buffalo. And Buffalo Bill is a national hero. Right? You're talking about Columbus. because just like they did with the buffalo they just fucking slaughtered the buffalo and buffalo bill is a national hero right you're talking about columbus sure buffalo fucking bill that's what

he's famous for he shot him and left him there to fucking rot yeah what they do they took the hides right that's all they took yeah that's all they talked and mostly it was just to starve the indians the hides is that why they did it yeah that's why they did it? Yeah, that's why they did it. Because that's when they were building the railroads across the Great Plains. Oh, right, right, right. And the Indians kept kicking their ass. And so they're like, well, they're kicking our ass, so let's starve them out. Take away their food source. Yeah.

You know what's also interesting? We haven't reintroduced the buffalo. The buffalo is the one animal that if you look at- They've reintroduced wolves all right and to a great many people's dismay because they're starting to attack livestock but that livestock in and of itself is one of the reasons why they haven't reintroduced buffalo right because people are scared because if they bring buffalo back buffalo are beautiful majestic creatures but say goodbye to all your hay bitch well buffaloes use much less water than cows do oh yeah they're

much better environmentally well they can i mean they're fucking hardy hardy and they can withstand really cold oh yeah well they have blankets yeah they're built-in blankets but they eat a lot have you seen one like in life only in only in like a fenced-in area because they're kind of like it's like a moose it's like, that's so big. Yeah. Or bigger even. But not only that, they look like prehistoric. They're woolly and furry.

There's a crazy thing called a muskox. Yeah, sure. In Tibet. Well, they have them in Antarctic, I believe it is. And they also have them in Greenland. And people go to Greenland and hunt these things. And they apparently taste delicious, like ribeyes. like they're marbled because they're so fat the long hair. Yeah Yeah, they but they look like like Star Wars creatures like they look like a real animal like this big

Furry thing with horns and it's running around in the frozen snow. You're like what the fuck is that? But these animals can survive in places where we couldn't imagine surviving. And they thrive out there in this frozen tundra. These big, gigantic, you know, 2,000-pound beasts covered in fur. And it's like, God, it's amazing. But my point was that there was a point in time where we had driven a giant majority of these animals to extinction. Now, because of the symbiotic relationship, especially like white-tailed deer have with agriculture and human settlement, there's more deer in America today than there were when Columbus was here.

Right. Which is nuts. And it's because of intervention. It's because of intervention. It's because of management. It's because these fishing game groups have recognized the problems and have regulated the amount of hunting that people can do, but also worked really hard to protect habitat and preserve habitat. And that's one of the things with these national forests. In fact, Teddy Roosevelt, because he was an avid outdoorsman and a hunter, he is the reason why we have these national forests and national parks. And with great resistance, he put that in place. Yeah, he turned on his own class.

Yes. He was an interesting cat. His mother and his wife died on either the same day or the same week. Whoa. Yeah, he had a really bad week. It might have been the same day or the same week whoa yeah he had a really bad week um it might have been the same day but he was back in new york i think he was a governor or a senator and like his fucking life fell apart and he's from this really wealthy family right obviously the roosevelts they were already a very wealthy family and as a way you know a little bit like wim hof and as a way, you know, a little bit like Wim Hof and as a way of dealing with his grief, he was like, fuck it, I'm out of here.

He quit and he went out to like Montana, I think, and worked on a ranch. And he was a sick kid, which is why he sort of like overcompensated in a way with all the macho and, you know, all this stuff. And he worked on that ranch and that's where he really fell in love with the natural world and you know became this and then he went back and became secretary of the navy i think and uh fought in the spanish-american war and you know his political career took off from there didn't he establish an independent party wasn't like the buffalo party or something like that wasn't that one of the times that he ran for president? Yeah. It wasn't Buffalo, though. It was like the Bull Moose. The Bull Moose. Right.

Right. Right. Yeah. That's right. And he and John Muir were friends. Who is John Muir again? A great naturalist who wrote about Yosemite and convinced Roosevelt to make Yosemite a national park.

Maybe the first national park. Isn't it ironic that that's probably what's going to kill every single person on this entire continent when yosemite blows when that motherfucker you're thinking yellowstone yellowstone yeah i was confused those two yeah for whatever reason yellow the y yeah that's that's fucking goddamn terrifying to me yeah that's a big one that's that's pretty cool i mean but i love that shit did you see that storm yesterday oh yeah it was beautiful yeah i like i like when nature just says fuck you you know well that was barely a fuck you that was like no but for la that was weather la it was like i was i was sitting up in uh the soho house you've been up there in hollywood no i never have it's pretty

cool it's like it's the top floor of and it's up on the hill anyway, so you can see all the way to the ocean. That's like where all the rich people, they become members of this place, and it's like a status symbol spot. Yeah. Why'd you get in there? Because I have rich status symbol friends. What is it like in there? It's cool. It's nice.

There are no cameras allowed. What happens if you pull out your phone? Well, that's what happened yesterday when that storm system came in. I'll show you a picture, you know, when we when we finish. But it was so beautiful because it was really late and the sun was like right on the horizon and these crazy clouds came in really quickly. And then it was raining in the sun and there were rainbows. And like, you know, the when the rays of the sun come down and come down and something's, Jacob's Ladder, I think it's called. So everybody was like, pictures. And all the waiters were like, no photos, no photos.

And everyone's like, fuck you. We're doing it. Oh, my God. Rebellion. It was a Soho rebellion. Ooh. Yeah. What is that for?

Celebrities? Is that what they do? Right. Because they don't want people surreptitiously like, look, Joe Rogan's talking to someone. But it's so hard when you have a phone with a camera and everyone has a phone. Yeah. Like, everyone's phone has a camera. You're not supposed to pull out the phone in the place.

You can go out on the terrace where you can smoke and whatever and talk and text or whatever. So they ask you when you go there, please do not use your phone while you're eating. Can you text while you're eating? I don't think you're supposed to have your phone out of your pocket inside. Oh, that's a good thing. But everybody's got a computer. They have a computer. Yeah, everybody's working.

Because it's a place where you can go and work all day. And there are tables. It's like a lounge, yeah. Really? Yeah, you can get some food, have a coffee, but you can sit there all day. Is it like a restaurant as well? I thought it was... Yeah, in the back there's a restaurant area, but the main thing, like there's a pool table.

What? Yeah. Really? It's like a cool place to hang out. Where all the like she-she people hang out. Well, honestly, I mean, I've probably been there five or ten times, and you know, I can't remember seeing anyone that i recognized as being wealthy folks i think it's it's people in the entertainment business so there are a lot of you know producers and screen screenwriters and you know and some actors will go in there whatever but

i think the idea it's not like my impression anyway is that it's not about like going and being seen it's about going and not having to deal with the shit but still being in public so you can be in public people will be cool they respect your privacy you can hang out and work you can have meetings there you can you know do your business there whatever and also it's a network there's one in new york there's one in london yeah i've heard of them, but I've always thought that they were just like hop-knobbing celebrity spots. Since you know me, Joe, I could probably talk to someone and get you in. I don't want to go. I'm a member of the comedy store.

That's the only club I want to go to. That's good enough. Yeah, exactly. There's just a weird thing about being in that sort of a circle of like privileged folks that i try to avoid as much as possible there's a lot of people enjoy that a little too much and it becomes like something that they uh they just it's just become something a little too precious to them yeah i don't get that vibe there but maybe i'm just not paying attention well i'm only getting it third hand through people that know people that go there that want to become a part of it and they talk

about them like what is this what and i realized i can't be in this conversation i gotta get out of here i feel that way about americans actually when i'm in spain and i hear american accents i'm like yeah i'm gonna go down here nothing against americans but you know when i mean i don't know if i'm i'm resonating with what you're talking about, but it's like I know that world too well. I'm not here to be in that world. I want to be in another world. I also think that there's a certain amount of reaching for things that some folks will do when they achieve a level of financial success and they still feel like empty so they want some sort of exclusivity so they like to go to the admiral's lounge you know what i mean at the airport and you know what

i mean like this hat but yeah i don't think they give you hats but you know what i mean it's like sure there's like exclusive things that make them feel special. Right. It's like, and becoming. It's a VIP lounge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to get a bottle service behind the velvet rope. Ooh.

Well, that's when you know, you've, you're, you know, you're, you're a sucker for it. That's when you're hooked.

People love that velvet rope. It's right there. I can't even get through it. Look at it. It's a barrier. It's like a force. I'll tell you what the guy I was with, uh,

he's a really good friend of mine. He's a wonderful guy. Uh, grew hollywood he's right now he's homeless he's giving up his apartment because he's doing this movie about dolphins so he's down in florida a lot of times and then he's in mexico and he's doing all this stuff and uh i'm not i hope i haven't said enough to give him away but he's like he's essentially i was giving him shit he's a him away, but he's like, he's essentially, I was giving him shit. He's a pussy vagabond. He's like sleeping with different women every night. Stay in their houses? Yeah.

Oh, that's gross. No, they're all friends and they all know about each other. So he's not lying to anyone. But he's like, yeah, when I'm in LA, I don't really need an apartment. I can stay in a hotel if I want to. But usually I'm sleeping with one of my friends. And then I go to the Soho house and that's where I work it's like all right that's a pretty good system you know and then

get this he has his computer he works there and then he's off to Miami to do some more filming I have a buddy who's a wealthy real estate guy and his house is basically a hostel for really hot semi like semi-homeless girls like ales manson without the killing no no no because like it's always like some new one that is living with them and they almost always have like a little dog and they're like they just get kicked out of their apartment no you could stay with me and they wind up staying with him and it's like this battle he's an older guy and he looks like shit it's hard for him to fuck them andasionally does get to fuck them, but sometimes I'm like dude. You got to get away from her. What are you doing? She's fucking? But it's that's what he does he has like one after another these like semi

Homeless girls that don't have any place to go and they went up staying with him And they're usually really hot and that's their currency their currency is that they're pretty and but you know Symbiotic in a sad sort of way yeah it's weird a video about father yod father yod do we talk about that it's called the the uh the source family he was this dude oh you should watch that that's a really interesting so he was this documentary yeah it's a documentary i think, it's a documentary. I think it's called The Source Family. And so Father Yod was this dude who started the first vegetarian restaurant in America. And it was in Hollywood. And it became like a place where Goldie Hawn or some, I don't know, people in their 60s were going.

And Dennis Hopper and that kind of scene, right? And then it became a cult. And he ended up like basically marrying like 30 women or something nice but he was this big charismatic dude he was like charles manson without the nastiness right uh-huh check out the movie it'll blow your mind i won't tell you anymore because like it takes turns that you don't see coming and it tells you a lot about what la was like in the 60s and 70s. Well, L.A. was like, I mean, the whole country was thrown on its head in the 60s.

Like no one knew what the fuck to expect. As soon as that acid and marijuana got into the system, post-Vietnam or actually during Vietnam. During Vietnam. Yeah. The whole system went wacky. Yeah. And he was, I mean, you'll relate to him in some ways because he was like physically he was a really serious dude like he was a green beret i think and he had killed a couple of people and then he like spun out into drug addiction or alcohol or something and then

he got his shit together but he was just so fucking charismatic that like people just gathered around him all the time and but that if you watch it we'll talk further i don't want to say anything else because it's really interesting netflix or yeah i think so apple yeah it's somewhere out there the source family source family and also that verner herzog thing encounters at the end of the world okay i'm gonna write that i mean i don't mean to be giving you homework no i like homework that's you like herzog my uh this this same uh pad has sierra lynch on it from the last time you were here like my writing is not yeah right here sierra lynch is this your like when chris ryan's here no i mean i guess i haven't been writing that many notes i mean there's other notes

that aren't from here oh i'm honored man honored, man. You're taking some notes. What is it, At the End of the World? What is it again? Encounters. Yeah. Werner Herzog. Did you see the one

about the cave art? Yeah, sure. Oh, my God. In 3D? Yeah. You know, I've been to Lascaux in the real cave. Oh, really?

Yeah. They let people go in there? Only with an official invitation from the French government. Yeah, because the people affect it with their breathing. The vapor, yeah. Yeah, that was a crazy day, man. That was a while ago.

What is it like looking at those things in person and knowing that someone 40,000 years ago or whatever the fuck it was. Yeah, it's 25 in Lascaux, but some of them are 40. But they're writing on this wall that long ago. Well, it's like a bull, right? It's like a bison, and it's like as big as that wall behind you. It's like three or four meters long and maybe two or three meters high, and it's red ochre. It's just extraordinary because, like as Herzog shows in that movie, they use the contour of the rock to accentuate the contours of the body of the animal. So there's a bulge in the rock and that's in the shoulder of the bison.

It's fucking amazing. But I'll tell you that, I mean, Lesko, it's a real honor to be invited. It was only because I was with Stanley Krippner. And Stanley got us invited. His assistant. How's he doing? He's all right. He's in China right now.

What is he doing in China? It's unstoppable. They invite him every year to go to China and speak about shamanism, I think. Wow. He was an interesting guy. I was really fascinated when you brought him in here. Yeah. He's really fascinated by listening to his words.

I'm really glad you did that, too, because he's 85 or something. He's not going to be around forever. I'm glad you did that, too, because he's, you know, he's 85 or something. He's not going to be around forever. But he's really underappreciated because he's published 25 books and 700 scientific papers. And, you know, but he never sought media or anything. But he was on The Johnny Carson Show a few times. Was he really? About what?

Well, he was the guy. He was like the go-to guy in the late 60s, early 70s when you were talking about psychics. So like he would go on with the amazing Kreskin, you know, you remember the amazing Kreskin spoon bending and all that. So they would have Dr. Krippner on to sort of, you know, monitor the experiment and, you know, try to catch Kreskin and and his trickery and all this stuff. And so, yeah, I joke with Stanley that his Rolodex has like three people under the amazing. The amazing Randy, the amazing Kreskin, and some other amazing. I don't know. The amazing Randy is a fascinating cat, too, because he sort of set out to try to disprove

as much of that shit as possible, even though that's how he started out. Well, he's a magician, as Stanley is. Yeah. Yeah. So magicians are really skeptical because they make a living tricking people so they know how easy it is to do. When I did that sci-fi show, we had this guy on. His name is Banachek. And he's fucking amazing at that shit.

Amazing. I mean, he did a spoon bending thing right in front of my eye. I couldn't figure out what the hell he was doing. But he's super adamant about what, he goes, what I'm doing is just tricks. Right. These are tricks.

I don't have any powers. I can't tell you how I'm doing it because this is my thing. Right. And I'm, you know, making a living doing this. But I'll tell you right now, it's bullshit. I'm really good at this bullshit, but it's bullshit. But I mean, he was amazing.

And when he would pull information out of people about their childhood and guess things and explain where they came from and like, oh, it was just like mind blowing. And I'm like, how the fuck are you doing this? He wouldn't say, but he would say, I'm not telling you how I'm doing this, but I'm telling you right now, I'm not psychic. This is all fakery. It's all bullshit. But he would get furious when he would like the Long Island Medium or one of those shows where they had people and they would tell them about their dead relatives.

He's like, this is, these are crooks. These people are shit. Like they're ruining people. They're stealing money from people with their trickery. From people who are grieving and vulnerable yeah come on how low can you get that's the saddest shit about people that go after folks that are hurting you know like with their loss and then they say he's talking to you from behind the beyond the grave i feel like he's reaching out to you and he's happy with where you are. And he just wants you to. There's something that you're about to do.

Is there something you're thinking about doing? All this is business project. Yes. Yes. That's it. That's it. Yeah. And the fucking monsters.

Okay. Then extrapolate from that to the American medical system where 30% of all Medicaid is spent in the last month of people's lives. Is that really the amount? I think so. Meanwhile, mushrooms. They can grow mushrooms. Give them that a fraction. What is that? What is it when you're doing a hip replacement on a 90 year old blind lady?

Fucking again, you know? No, there's this experimental treatment we can try on grandma. You know, it's gonna like all her hair is gonna fall out and she won't be able to see but, you know, we'll get forty thousand dollars from your insurance company. It's the same thing. You know, it's so fucking in that sense, in that sense.

And the dying people, I mean, there's a there's a lack of accepting of the futility of the body failing. But didn't they just pass assisted suicide in California? Like, yeah, the ability. Jerry Brown just signed it. I think that's important important too because i think we we put our dogs down when our dogs are sick and in suffering we know that they're 15 years old and there's no there's no positive ending to this but we don't do it with people we make people like naturally rot away and i know there's this there's a potential for fuckery and for people that want inheritance money. And you talk your elderly dad who's got Alzheimer's into signing over some will just before you fucking off him.

There's a lot of that. That's real. It's 100%. I know a guy who found out that his own brother had talked his mom into signing a fucking new will. And he had to fight him in court over it while his mom's sick. His mom is like she's got some sort of a neurological disorder and she's completely out of it and he he did this while his mom was sick he was taking care of his mom and he had to hurt i mean it was it's a fucking there's horrible horrible people out there that do do things like that and they could do something

like that and then put someone down but on the other hand like why would you want someone to just suffer in fucking complete and total agony for the remaining five months six months of their life so that you can rest easy in the fact that they went out with god they went out naturally or they went out fighting yeah you know oh after a long fight with like why is fighting so admirable what happened to like gracefully accepting the fact that we're all mortal especially it's not like well grandpa fought it and then he lived forever he won he won he went back in time now he's 20 you know grandpa is getting younger every year it's so strange he just started competing in gymnastics. That's amazing. He's going to stop shaving soon. Yeah.

What about hermetically sealed stainless steel caskets? Oh, yeah. That's bizarre. What's up with that? Yeah. What exactly is it that you're sealing out or in? I'm not sure which way the seal is. I want to preserve him from nature.

Wouldn't you want, I mean, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Don't you want them to be absorbed by the earth? Their skin vessel to be useful and maybe a tree will grow underneath them or above them? Well, see, that's what I'm saying about American culture. DABDA, right? Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Do you think that's changing? I think the culture's stuck.

But do you think that's changing? I do. culture's stuck. But do you think that's changing? I do. And I think largely because it's conversations like this. Yeah. You know? I think largely because of people being able to communicate with each other and express how futile that is and ridiculous that is. Because that's the kind of thing if, you know, if your parent or grandparent or husband or

wife is facing this kind of thing and you're thinking, fuck, you know, I could put the dog down. I can't help my wife die, you know, in peace. You're not going to say that to anyone. You get arrested. You'll get ostracized. But we can say it publicly. You know, some people somewhere say, fuck it, this is the truth. Like in the book, I quote from doctors,

and you look at what choices doctors make for themselves when they're dying versus what they recommend to their patients. It's completely different. You know, the graph is crazy because they know CPR rarely does anything. When you're 80 years old and you have a heart attack, CPR might keep you pumping along for another couple of weeks, but you'll have brain damage, broken ribs, and excruciating pain. CPR works great in movies. And actually, I quote those stats. On TV, the number of people who go home and lead a healthy life after receiving CPR is like 95%, and in reality, it's like 6%. Yeah. Yeah.'s it's a funny it's a funny but you know getting back to the people you're saying who off you know

sign this and then off them whatever the question i have is like are we are we making there are creeps who will do that shit right there are situations that are really ugly but by our refusal to openly talk about this stuff and make these things available, are we empowering them or not? Because the assumption is that they would have more power. But I think if you have an open adult conversation about these things and a government that acknowledges that sometimes the right thing to do is to help someone die without pain and the hospice gets funded a lot. And I think that disenables those people.

It disempowers them. Because then grandma's going to when she's still got her shit together is going to be more open about talking about it. There's going to be more advanced directives signed. People are going to be, you know, it's like sex where the abstinence only programs. Those are the states where the most STDs are, most pregnancies, teen pregnancies, right? So you refuse to talk about it. You just make it worse.

Yeah, it only makes sense in that sense. And that's a double. But I think that what's going on now that has never existed before is that our culture is not just being shaped by whatever media is projected. For the longest time, our culture was shaped by the people that surrounded us, you know, and that's why leaders were so important, right? And then tribal cultures, tribal elders and shamans and the people that had lived a long life and had learned, and you could listen to them and they could explain these

experiences that they've gone through and perhaps you're going to go through. Rites of passages were also very important for that same reason. Like you've got, you're going to go through something, you're going to experience something, and then you'll have a greater understanding of the world because of that. And for the longest time in our most recent history, it's the longest time for us, pretty recent, the last few hundred years, it was either books that gave us a depiction of the world, and we kind of learned from that and said, well, this is obviously how the world goes. Or then it became motion pictures and television and Father Knows Best and, you know, all these different shows that sort of gave us this idea

or ideal of what life is all about. And that's where we've formed our vision or our version of reality. But now it's different. Like now our version of reality but now it's different like now our version of reality is being formed by conversations our version of reality is being formed by people communicating with each other and it's just a completely different sort of experience because now you're seeing a broader wider sort of conversation going on with whether or not this like it just even movements that are extreme like like whether it's PETA or whether it's uh animal rights organizations or uh gay rights organizations or trans rights or whether it's like these black lives matter these there's all these different groups that have like way broader reach with activism

that was never possible before. If you didn't have a guy like Martin Luther King, a charismatic leader that could speak up and give speeches, I have a dream. If you didn't have that guy, who the fuck else do you have? There's so few voices. But now anyone with a concept or an idea that resonates with other people, you can make a tweet. And that tweet can go viral. And that viral tweet can shape the way people look at a certain subject.

You could write a Facebook blog or a Tumblr blog or make a short YouTube video. And people could watch that video and see your perspective and go, God damn it, he's right. Chris Ryan made a great point there. And then they exchange it and they spread it. Send him money. Send that motherfucker some cash. PayPal that dude some cash. You know, but this unique time where we can all sort of, we can all aid in shaping our culture.

We can all aid in shaping our view of the world that we live in. That just wasn't available before. It just wasn't available. What are you going to mimeograph a million pamphlets and pass them out at best you could become one of those people that shapes it for everybody else like you become your circle well even if you make a movie you know or if you make uh write a book but even then the movie is going to be uh censored by the money right now you can make an independent movie with twenty thousand dollars in your fucking iPhone.

It's crazy. Yeah, and then you can do it through a GoFundMe or a Kickstarter or some shit. You don't need anybody's help. We live in a weird, weird time. It's amazing, but I feel like we don't appreciate it or can't recognize how insanely transformative it is because we're a part of it.

I think one day in the future, they'll look back at the 21st century and they'll look back particularly at the time from, you know, the year 2000, I think maybe even 2001, maybe September 11th would be like a tipping point because of all the chaos that went along with that. And they'll look at the amount of change that's taken place in the last 14 years since September 11th. Yeah. And they'll look at the amount of change that's taken place in the last 14 years since September 11th. And they go, this fucking, what a whirlwind of change and ideas and transformation. And in the middle of it, we're just in the middle of it with our iPhones and fucking YouTube and Periscope and all this crazy shit that's going on.

And we're not even realizing how bizarre it is. And all this crazy shit's going on. And we're not even realizing how bizarre it is. Well, I mean, I don't know if you're younger than me. But I remember in 1992, I lived in San Francisco. And I had a computer, a Compaq. And the internet was starting. And I was in graduate school. And I had come from Spain to do graduate school in San Francisco.

And the internet was starting. And this graduate school didn't want to incorporate the internet. They were like, nah, that's bullshit. And I was like, if you guys would use this, I could go back to Spain. You know, like that was my idea. Like this is going to be big, this internet thing, you know. So you thought that even then that it would be like a global thing. Well, I thought, I mean, I was thinking of it in terms of my own life, right? Because I wanted to be back in Spain. thing you know so you thought that even then that it would be like a global thing well i i thought i

mean i was thinking of it in terms of my own life right because i wanted to be back in spain i was living with a spanish woman she missed her family and like we were like you know i want to get an american degree but i i really like living in spain and she wants to give it and i was like if i could like submit papers this way and the professors could answer through the Internet and we could do this whole thing and I could be in Spain. Right. And I remember getting really frustrated that they were just like, nah, this isn't going to happen. That shows the difference between you and me. With me, when I first got on the Internet, it was 1994.

All I did was download UFO reports. See, porn. I was looking for porn porn I was looking for porn I was looking for porn too but it was frustrating because it was like click click click click oh there's a nice top of her breast you know and I was single and living by myself so

I just would go to the DVD store and just fucking brush those beads aside like a gangster and just either buy them or rent them remember those in the adult only room sometimes they had saloon doors beads aside like a gangster and just either buy them or rent them. Remember those? The beads, yeah. Or saloon doors. In the adult-only room, yeah.

Sometimes they had saloon doors. Like, I'm here. You push the doors apart and go into that, and everybody would feel so guilty in the porn section. Do you ever see a porn movie in a theater with a bunch of old men in raincoats? No, no, no, no. I took my girlfriend in high school. Raincoats.

Well, you know. Did they really cliche that's the joke well boots i took this i had this super hot cuban girlfriend in my last year of high school and uh we went to a dirty movie i think it was debbie does dallas oh that's how old i am and uh yeah i remember taking her in and i remember just like it was like you know like taking a chunk of seal meat into a shark tank. You know, it's just like all the dudes are just like, yeah, a real one, a live one. There it is. Our goal, our destiny. Right there.

Did you ever see that when Deep Throat came out, it was essentially viewed as a cinematic film. It wasn't like porn wasn't really a thing. There was stag films, which were just like these weird clips on 16 millimeter. Jack Nicholson standing in line in Times Square. Johnny Carson. Yeah. There's a famous photo of Johnny Carson and all those people dressed up really nice and they're waiting in line to go see Deep Throat.

Have you seen the documentary Inside Deep Throat? No. Yeah. Well. Another one? A lot of homework. Yeah, I'm expecting a report Monday morning, by the way. This is not the one with Lindsay Lohan, right?

No. Inside Deep Throat. It's a documentary about exactly what you're saying, about the cultural moment that deep throat presented and how yeah uh doesn't lindsey lohan play that girl in a movie that very few people watched linda lovelace yes yeah yeah poor linda lovelace because she then became a tool of the feminist movement she did yeah she and then she claimed that she'd been raped and that the whole thing, she didn't enjoy any of it. And then at the end of her life,

I think she was diagnosed with cancer and at the end of her life, she was like, no, that was bullshit. These people convinced me to say that, but really I was just having fun. Sucking a lot of dicks. No big deal. Yeah.

Well, you know, oftentimes people do become tools of groups that have these ideological principles that you may or may not go with. The idea of the feminist movement, like the real problem that a lot of people have is that there's some women that are involved in that that really don't like men. And they're opposed to men. And they're opposed to – there was one woman who was a part of, I think it's called Google ideas or something like that, but she had this Twitter page and you know, she was arguing with people on Twitter. And one of the things she said is I eat men for dinner or I eat men for breakfast. Like you think I'm scared. I eat men for breakfast. And everybody's like, what? Why would you say that? Like all men? Like not even assholes?

Like why would you even say that? Like you imagine if a man said that, if a man in any position of power, like and she was, I believe what, and I'm poor understanding of what's going on, but I believe that she was brought in to sort of bring more diversity to this project they were doing,

you know, this idea, and that bringing a feminist perspective was going to, you know, balance things out a little bit, which is always a good idea, right? But when you read something like that, like that's, even if that's not really her intention, just having that perspective, having the perspective of, you know, I eat men for breakfast. Like you could never say I eat women for breakfast. Unless she means it in a nice way. Like come, see you in a while, come.

I mean, hey, that's. That's not bad. I like women who eat women for breakfast. Unless she means it in a nice way. Like, come. So you don't want to come. I mean, hey, that's- That's not bad. I like women who eat men for breakfast. Yeah. You know. The morning blowjob. The half-asleep blowjob is a beautiful thing. It's going away.

It's like the doro bird. Really? It's almost extinct. It's almost extinct. It's like the wooded owl. If we don't stop cutting down these trees, we're going to lose the blowjob. We're not talking about Ambien either. It doesn't count because then you're not even there for it.

Well, it takes a special kind of passion. And I think some people just don't have that for each other. Well, and I think when you're half asleep, you can sort of enjoy it more. Yeah. Well, you can enjoy a lot of sex. Really relaxed. More when you're cuddling together and then someone just decides to start something. You're like, all right, we're doing this?

Right. Woo-hoo. Well, you do it. I'll just sort of start something. You're like, all right, we're doing this? Right. Woo-hoo. Well, you do it. I'll just sort of lie here. Sometimes that's fun, too. Yeah. Sure. Sure.

I did not consent. Well, there's a lot of madness now, too, with sex. There was something they were handing out to young students now where they were saying that you literally have to get consent. They were saying that you should get consent every 10 seconds during any sex act. I'm sure there's an app. You know, Siri, ask her every 10 seconds, you know, if she's enjoying this. Do you consent to this?

May I shove it in harder? May I go faster? You know, may I pull it back and then put it back in again? May I rub it on the outside? May I tease you? Oh, man. We live in a weird world. Yeah.

Well, it's America, too. Have you been to Spain? No, never May I tease you? Oh, man. We live in a weird world. Yeah. Well, it's America, too. Have you been to Spain? No, never. You've got to come visit, man. Well, I think even it's not, I don't even think it's really America. I think it's what we were talking about earlier, about these small groups of people that have these ideas, and they're very, very passionate about spreading these ideas. And these ideas don't necessarily have to be good, but they have to have a bunch of

other crazy people that believe in them like the people that convinced Linda Lovelace Into saying that she was raped and you know the feminist movement that co-opted her ideas I don't I mean they didn't do it because they were calculating an evil and they had some grand plan to ruin it for everybody Else they probably did it because they were nuts and there's a lot of other nutty people out there that agree with you i tweeted something the other day that someone tweeted and it was so fucking ridiculous that it it it made me go what the fuck i don't even know what to say but it was about abortion and the uh the tweet was something like um abortion isn't just about women because not everyone who gets pregnant is a woman. I'm not sure I get that one. Because trans people can get pregnant.

So a woman who identifies with being male can also get pregnant and abortion rights are for her to him. Him. Sorry. Whatever. Him. Sorry. Whatever. Yeah, I'll read you the exact tweet because it's fucking maddening. It's fucking crazy. It just doesn't even make any sense. Let me find it right here.

You found it already, Jamie? Here it is right here. I found it right here. Abortion access isn't just a woman's right. Not all pregnant people or people who can get pregnant are women. What in the fucking actual fuck? Silly bullshit. But that's, you can get a bunch of people and go, yes, you're amazing.

What you did is beautiful. What you said was amazing. No, what you said is horse shit. Just because you think you're a man doesn't mean you're a man. We're off we're off in a weird weird tangent here but that's that's what's going on jermaine greer got in a lot of trouble for saying that you know who she is yes yes right yeah the female eunuch she wrote yeah yeah so she said that she's like look you can call yourself whatever you want but

to me you're not a woman yeah and everybody's like what how, what did she say? How dare you? That's hate language. It's not hate language. It's not. It's her fucking opinion. Well, not only that. Like, God damn it. Why do we assume that when people say something nutty that they're crazy in almost every single avenue except for gender?

For gender, we'll just accept anything. We'll just accept back and forth. There's a guy that they did, of radio lab, an amazing piece. And the guy clearly out of his fucking mind when you listen to him talk, but he flips back and forth from being male and female all day long. And they're talking about it. Like it's this very unusual thing. It's very rare.

Normally with transgender, they live in one sex and believe they're another, but this person goes back and forth. But when you listen to this person talk, you realize this is not a stable human being. And it's quite possible they're out of their fucking mind, but you don't consider it because it's gender. If they thought they were a fox, if they believed that they were born in the ocean of merpeople, you would say, well, this guy's out of his fucking mind.

But because he's talking about gender, he can say, well, now I'm a man. Well, now I'm a woman. I just turned. I just turned. So he's in the conversation. And in the middle of the conversation, he's like, I just flipped. Like they asked him something uncomfortable. I'm Jack now.

I just flipped. Like, oh, you're fucking crazy. Oh, you're crazy. You're a crazy person. You believe you're male and female back and forth like ping pong balls? Fuck you. Okay? Fuck you for putting this on the air.

Fuck you for saying it. Taking it seriously. God damn it. We out of time? Jamie's just telling we're out of time. God damn it, Chris Ryan. You've been podcasting all fucking day, man. We just smashed three hours.

Jesus. We did it again, sir. Knocked it out of the park. Tangentially Speaking is available on iTunes. What's your website again? Chris Ryan? chrisryanphd.com. And the new book will be how long before it's all edited and whacked out?

Next summer. Yeah. This summer coming up? Yeah, 2016. Seven or eight months. Yeah. Yay. Yeah.

All right. Hopefully before Trump becomes president. Will you leave in December? We could fucking shove one more of these bitches in. Sure. Dude, we could talk about it. I'll do my homework and we'll have a lot to talk about. All right. Thanks, brother.

Appreciate it, as always. Always fun, yeah. All right, my friends. We'll be back soon. Until then, go fuck yourself. See ya. Woo.