The Joe Rogan Experience - #725 - Graham Hancock & Randall Carlson

Episode Date: November 19, 2015

Graham Hancock is an English author and journalist, well known for books such as "Fingerprints Of The Gods" & his new book "Magicians of the Gods" is available now. Randall Carlson is a master builder and architectural designer, teacher, geometrician, geomythologist, geological explorer and renegade scholar.

I have been looking forward to this podcast for a long time, gentlemen. This is about as cool a podcast. For me, as a fan, this is like one of my favorite ones. Because Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock together and your new book, Magicians of the Gods. Is it out officially everywhere now? Yeah, it's published on the 10th of November. Fantastic. All over the U.S.

All over the U.S. And Randall, you guys together, this is so exciting to me because I know you guys spent a lot of time together and you were working together on just this current project. We did a fantastic research trip across the channeled scablands of Washington State, which Randall has been walking the walk on for decades. And he just showed me the absolute irrefutable evidence of cataclysmic flooding in that area, and it plays a very important part in the book. North America was the epicenter of a global cataclysm between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago,

and when you see it through Randall's eyes, you get it immediately. This whole subject, since you've been on my podcast and you've been on the podcast, is something that comes up. I mean, I'm not kidding. Four or five times a week, someone will grab me and ask me, when is Graham coming back on again? When's Randall coming back?

And when I tell people that you guys are coming on together, the people will start freaking out. So we've been saying before this that people are taking time off work. They're having little viewing parties. So to you people out there, we're just as excited as you are. So tell me what's been going on. So tell me the Washington State thing. Tell me what you guys saw and what picture evidence and what was revealed.

I'm going to pass that one to Randall first off. Well, we were basically traveling. What we did was we traveled from Portland to the Twin Cities. And what we did was essentially followed the southern margin of the Great Ice Sheet for the most part. And what we were looking at was this evidence that the whole ice sheet had undergone this massive catastrophic sudden meltdown and basically what we could what we saw in the landscape was evidence that was oceanic level currents flowing off the ice sheets in fact that the um the geologists that have been looking at this use a term called spur drop which was originally uh contrived to

um and it's it's a uh a million cubic meters per second and they originally came up with it to talk about ocean currents like the gulf stream and so on um not realizing that down the road it was actually going to be applied to currents that were flowing over the land. But that's what we were looking at. Spell that word? It's named after the scientist that first came up with the concept. It's S-V-E-R-D-R-U-P, Sverdrup. It's a hundred million, I'm sorry, a million cubic feet, cubic meters per second. Whoa.

Which is very difficult to even envision. But when you see it on the landscape, I mean, for example, there's a place called the Camas Prairie that Randall took me to, where you see these kind of ripples in the ground, and they look a little bit like current ripples on the beach, you know, but actually they are current ripples, but they're 50 feet high and hundreds and hundreds of feet long. And there, that receding flood left those ripples on that landscape. Then above the town of Wenatchee, there's a gigantic boulder, which didn't come from Wenatchee. It weighs 18,000 tons. And it got there in an iceberg, the size of an oil tanker, which grounded against that side of the valley the flood waters

receded the iceberg melted away and it left this humongous boulder there and actually there's thousands of them thousands of these gigantic boulders just scattered across the landscape of the pacific northwest northwest and it all speaks of this cataclysmic horrendous humongous flood that happened 12,800 years ago. 18,000 tons. You just threw out some giant numbers. The meters per second and the 18,000. 18,000 tons is, a ton is 2,000, so 18,000 tons is 18,000 2,000s. So it's 36 million?

Yeah, if you want, I can pull up some images. Is that what that is? Yeah, something of that order. Let's just say really fucking big. I mean, an enormous, an enormous thing. And the fact is, if there was just one, it would be spectacular. But there's thousands of them. They're all just washed away by this water. So when the ice caps suddenly melted down,

and we know now that that happened because of the impact of several fragments of a giant comet back 12,800 years ago, it released a huge flood of meltwater and that meltwater carried, it was jostling with icebergs, huge icebergs. And many of these icebergs had rocks enchained within them. As glacial ice moves, it snatches up and enchains rock and keeps it inside. There's a name for them. They're called glacial erratics. And so they're in these icebergs and the icebergs

are jostling against each other and the flood has ripped up whole forests by its roots and there's mud and there's rubble and it's rumbling and you see it all on the landscape up there. And this is all carbon dated to this time period? The dating is very secure. Very secure. Oh, my God. If we look here at the image, now this is not from the catastrophic flood we're talking about here. Obviously. But interestingly enough, this was a hundred year flood that happened in Georgia back in 2004.

And what we had was a floodplain that got overtopped for the first time in decades, and it left these current ripples here. And I use this slide to show what we're used to on the scale of phenomena that we would normally see, this kind of phenomena. So this is a normal, very large, major storm that makes sense. This was Hurricane Ivan when it came through in 2004. They referred to it as a 100-year flood. Right.

So this is a massive storm, but it's nothing out of the ordinary, really. Right. It's rare, but huge. Yeah, it's rare. What you'll see here is, you know, I've got a measuring tape here. You're going to see the wavelength is about three inches. The amplitude, the vertical height of these things is about three quarters of an inch. And so these are all, what we're looking at is all dried dirt that has sand. It's been rippled. It's been carried

along in, swept along in this water that was over this floodplain, which was two feet deep. Carried along, and as the water declined, it deposited this sand and then rippled it as the final stages. And we're looking at this what year? How long after the storm was this? This was a week or two after the storm, because within a month this was all all obscured by wind and everything so now just so you've got this by comparison we'll go to this this is what Graham was just talking about Camas Prairie and and what you see here is there's ranches out there and you've got this 10 mile long field of these gigantic ripples And if you look up in the upper left-hand corner of the screen, you can see some of these ripples. They're, like Graham said, they're 100 to 300 feet in wavelength,

and they're up to 50 feet in amplitude. And the water that flowed through here that deposited this was over a thousand feet deep. So this is fractal. This is fractal. You get it in the small scale in the first image Randall showed, the same phenomenon there with a flood just two feet deep, and then we come to this humongous testimony to what happened 12,800 years ago. And it's easy to drive through it

and not really figure what you're driving through, but once you look at it and realize what happened, it really dilates the imagination. So this must have been just an absolutely enormous event when it happened and really sudden. Unimaginable. Unimaginable. And human beings lived through that and it changed everything. These, they're called extinction level events these global cataclysms wipe the slate clean they they change everything and they and they set a new order in motion a new order follows that so the classic example is the extinction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago that turned dinosaurs into chickens you know and they were gone and it opened the way for mammals and and

our distant ancestor is a sort of 65 millionmillion-year-old shrew, which was going nowhere until the dinosaurs were wiped by a cosmic impact. And then they began to evolve. And here we are. So dinosaurs became chickens and shrews became human beings. That's almost harder for me to imagine than this. This is very hard for me to wrap my head around, but that we came from a shrew 65 million years ago is almost harder. That's the story of evolution. One can buy into it or not.

But certainly mammals were going nowhere before the dinosaurs were swept out of the way. And the point I'm making is that these events, which are called extinction-level events, they reset the clock. They make everything start again. they reset the clock. They make everything start again. And this is why what happened in North America 12,800 years ago is so important because that period, the whole period was 12,800 to 11,600 years ago. That period stands right in the foundations of what we think of as the beginnings, the origins of civilization.

And yet, mainstream archaeology and historians have not taken it into account. And I don't blame them for that. This is new information. This is new science that's been mainly published in the professional journals since 2007. It's very intriguing new information, but we cannot any longer trust the established model of the origins of civilization since it does not take into account an extinction level event right in the foundations and that's why i say the house of history appears to be built on foundations of sand now this hasn't been adopted yet but is it resisted is it has mainstream use it is it's been whenever you whenever you propose a cataclysm of any kind it's a curious thing i don't know whether it's psychological or something more sinister than that.

But whenever you propose that and present evidence for it, you can be sure that you will be descended upon by a furious crowd of critics. And the group of scientists, more than 30 of them, very significant mainstream scientists who have been presenting the evidence for the comet impact impact have had a fight on their hands since 2007. But I can say with confidence, and I detail it at length in the book, that they have won that fight. Every criticism that's been made of their work, they have refuted, and they've come back with new evidence, sometimes three or four papers a year. And it's a compelling case, and we can't ignore it. Well, it seems to me as a casual observer, I mean, more casual, probably more into it than the average person, but not even close to you guys, that as this evidence piles up, like the nuclear glass that they keep finding, it's about 12,000. That's one of what they call the impact proxies. See, what we've got to consider is that we are looking at objects which might be a mile wide that are coming into the atmosphere at 70,000 miles an hour and they are hot. You know some people will remember comet

Shoemaker-Levy 9 that hit Jupiter back in 1994. That was a small comet just two kilometers wide broke into about 20 fragments. The explosive power of those impacts on Jupiter was 300 gigatons. Now, let me put that into perspective. The entire world's nuclear arsenal, were it to go off at once, would be 6.4 gigatons. So you're looking at something beyond imagination. The power of these impacts is absolutely colossal. Numbers don't do it. Just imagine a world on fire. A world changed forever. The explosion that hit Jupiter was about the size of the Earth,

too, right? No, no, no. This was a comet. I mean, the impact. Oh, the plume itself. It was like the size of the Earth. Absolutely. So we're looking at something that, when it happened, what's the timeline

around? The calculations around somewhere around 11,000 years ago? Well, there's actually a period. This is an episode rather than a single incident, and that's part of the mystery. First off, there are the impacts 12,800 years ago. That causes this cataclysm centered on North America but global, and global temperature plummets. I mean, people who talk about global warming today,

the change in temperature 12,800 years ago was just stunning. And this is undeniable. This is undeniable. Randall has detailed this in depth the last time he was here with mainstream scientific data that's irrefutable. Absolutely. Core samples, ice core samples. Absolutely.

And they call it, they'll just call it the Younger Dryas. And it's a 1,200 year period. Temperatures plunge at the beginning, massive animal extinctions. And then 1,200 years later, equally suddenly temperatures shoot up again dramatically. And there's another series of floods. So the period is 12,800 to 11,600 years ago. And I think, I don't know if Randall agrees, we're sure that the comet was the cause of the first event 12,800 years ago. I think other bits of the comet were responsible for the second event as well. I think there was an impact in ocean,

which through water vapor up into the upper atmosphere caused a greenhouse effect and created that sudden spike in warming and that huge flood. Those two warming spikes show up very dramatically in the Greenland ice cores. And I pulled these up, I think, in the last meeting, but it would be good to reference it again. And basically what you see here is warming spike number one is here and warming spike number two is here and these were extreme you know we're talking about 10 10 degrees centigrade roughly in perhaps a year or two and this translates into about 17 or 18 degrees fahrenheit so we're talking many times greater than the the warming of the last century or two. Instantly, basically just like that.

And this is, what we see here, brackets this whole episode of this period of transition from the glacial age to this nice, warm, Holocene interglacial age that we're in now. And, you know, Graham brought up about how this sits right at the very foundation of our modern history. And if you look at whether it's the dispersion of languages, the beginning of agriculture, the first cities, the domestication of animals, what you see over and over again is the same dates showing up, you know, eight, nine, 10,000 years ago. And in this model that we're describing here, we're not really seeing the genesis of civilization. We're seeing the rebooting of civilization in the aftermath of these events. It's the only thing that makes sense. We have now the data that makes sense of what previously

has been very mysterious and unexplained evidence. So for folks who are not aware of both of your work, to me this is so fascinating because I've been a fan of your book since, God, more than a decade, right? When did it come out, in the 90s? Well, Fingerprints of the Gods was published in 1995, which is 20 years ago. And Magicians of the Gods, the new book, is the sequel to Fingerprints. And I've written it because there's just this mass of new information that changes the whole picture completely.

Fingerprints of the Gods, I started reading sometime in the late 90s and just became engrossed in it and fascinated by this concept that civilization, and as you put it, that we are a species that has amnesia and that we just forgot what our past was. But the two of you together is what's so fascinating because it puts this puzzle together. Your obsession with asteroidal impacts and these massive extinction events and your knowledge of this ancient architecture that doesn't make any sense and these ancient construction methods that seem to differ and the timelines and for people who aren't aware of the whole story behind it

the erosion on the enclosure of the Sphinx where they made the Sphinx has thousands of years of rainfall erosion that doesn't make any sense because the last time there was rain in the Nile Valley was like 9000 BC which is right somewhere around there.

Yes, really. We've the climate of of of Egypt has been as dry as it is today for about the last 5000 years. So you have to go back. You actually have to go back to this period, to this Younger Dryas period, to get those heavy rainfalls that could have eroded the Sphinx in the way it is. And I want to pay tribute to the work of John Anthony West and Robert Shock from Boston University, because they broke this story way back in 1992. And at the time, the Egyptological establishment, of course, were furious that anybody dared to suggest that the Sphinx might be 12,000 years old. The Egyptologists said, we know the Sphinx dates from 2500 BC. Actually, one of the things I've done in this book is look at what the Egyptological case rests on.

And it's a fairy tale. It rests on nothing. It's kind of ideology. It's their idea of how things should be rather than any real factual evidence that puts the Sphinx at 2500 BC. And the geology puts the Sphinx much, much older. and the geology puts the Sphinx much, much older. Now, the argument of the archaeologists at the time was, and anyway, the Sphinx couldn't possibly be 12,000 years old,

because if that was the work of some unknown culture 12,000 years ago, we're going to find lots of other monuments around the world that are 12,000 years old, and we don't find any. Well, that was 1992, but now we're in 2015, and the site of Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been discovered Well, that was 1992, but now we're in 2015, and the site of Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been discovered with its gigantic megaliths, a deliberately buried time capsule, buried more than 10,000 years ago and created 11,500 years ago. And if you can make Göbekli Tepe, you can make the Sphinx. We are finding the fingerprints of this lost civilization

popping up all around the world. Indeed, on any archaeological site where you can be absolutely sure of the dating, the dating proves to be much older than we have been taught by archaeologists. They recently discovered a huge megalithic site 40 meters underwater in the Sicily Channel. It's been underwater for the best part of 10,000 years, which means that megalithic site is at least that old and maybe much older. And we can be sure about the dating because it's underwater.

Likewise, we can be sure of the dating of Gobekli Tepe because whoever made it deliberately buried it, sealed it, and no later organic material got in to contaminate the carbon dating record and give falsely young dates. And if they didn't bury it, someone else during that time period buried it. Somebody buried it. We don't know when it was built, but we know it's buried at least 10,000 plus years ago. Well, the dates that are coming out of it now, the earliest dates.

Now, it's important to be clear that there's much more of Gorbecki Tepe under the ground. Right. There's actually about 50 times as much as has already been excavated which is under the ground still and not been dug up yet they know it's there because they've been over the whole site with ground penetrating radar and what they're seeing is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these huge 20 to 50 ton t-shaped megalithic pillars buried under the ground somebody just as somebody went to enormous lengths to create this site, they also, or somebody else, went to enormous lengths to bury it.

And actually, Göbekli Tepe means pot-bellied hill in the Turkish language. And that whole pot-bellied hill that covers this site was artificially put there by human beings, teams of men and women with buckets filled with rubble and stones, filling it in and covering it up. So strange. And there's no guesses or theories as to why they did this? Really not. There's not. It's just a fact that it happened because archaeologists and geologists can tell from the nature of the material that covers these pillars that it isn't a natural sedimentation, that they were deliberately covered up. covers these pillars, that it isn't a natural sedimentation, that they were deliberately covered up.

Well, it's got to be satisfying to you guys, two obsessed crazy men come together, and your theories lock in like puzzle pieces, and ha-ha! Well, you've got the right word there, because this is... Obsessed crazy men. I'm glad you're obsessed crazy men. I say that with all love and respect. I put my hat up to that. Absolutely.

You've got to be a bit obsessed to stick with something like this. You know, I came in for an enormous amount of criticism and flack when I published Fingerprints of the Gods. And I'm human. It hurts when people say really bad things about me. But what I've learned is you just have to persist. You just have to keep going. have to keep going. Even if your ideas are shouted down by the established holders of knowledge in our society, if you feel strongly enough about those ideas, you've got to hang with them. And I've hung with these ideas for more than 20 years now. And what we're

seeing is just a mass of new evidence that basically vindicates the notion of a lost civilization. See, if I may say, Gobekli Tepe, the earliest dates they've pulled out of the ground now, which they think is the foundation of the site, is 11,600 years ago. And that is really significant because 11,600 years ago was the second episode of cataclysm at the end of the Younger Dryas.

And we know it was accompanied by massive global flooding. Is it possible that this was covered up then? That it wasn't covered up intentionally by people? That it was covered up as a part of that cataclysm? No, it was made after the cataclysm was over. And archaeologists have a problem with this because the site is very sophisticated.

It contains the world's first perfectly north-south aligned structure. And you can't do that without precise astronomy in fact there are huge astronomical implications to the Gobekli Tepe site the the architecture is is massive and you see the problem archaeology has is that up till now they've been teaching us that megalithic sites like this astronomically a megalithic sites like this are maximum of five to five and a half thousand years old and suddenly we're looking at a site which is far bigger than any other megalithic site known in the world which is at

least six thousand years older than any other known site so how do they explain this our ancestors are supposed to have been just hunter-gatherers at that time nomads following the game not with a sophisticated societal organization that would have specialists who had these knowledge, who had these skills, who could put this work together. So the fairy tale archaeologists are now telling about Gobekli Tepe is that one morning, a group of hunter-gatherers woke up somehow divinely inspired with the complete knowledge of megalithic architecture and how to organize a workforce and how to bring them to a site, which, by the way, there's no water on that site, and to put this whole proposition together.

And at the same time, exactly at the same moment, 11,600 years ago, we suddenly get evidence of agriculture spreading all over Turkey. It's like Göbekli Tepe is a center of innovation, and associated with it is the birth of agriculture in Turkey. And to me, this looks like a transfer of technology. It does not look to me like a group of hunter-gatherers woke up one morning magically equipped with the ability to invent agriculture and create a megalithic site like this. It looks to me like people who already had that knowledge

came into that area, settled there, and tried to pass on their knowledge to the local people and maybe used Göbekli Tepe as a kind of university or initiation center to train and teach people in those skills. That's what it feels like. And another point is that that same date, 11,600 years ago, is the date that Plato gives us for the destruction and submergence by flood of the lost civilization of Atlantis.

And up till now, archaeologists have dismissed the whole Atlantis story and they regard it as kind of pseudoscience, although it comes from Plato. But Plato said very clearly that this happened 9,000 years before the time of Solon. And Solon lived in 600 BC, so Plato is telling us Atlantis went down 9,600 BC, 11,600 years ago. Exactly the date of the second spike of the Younger Dryas Cataclysm. If you look here at this graph, we see... Randall, pull this sucker up close to you so that you get a little bit more... We can see here these are studies of sea level rise at the end of the Ice Age.

And rather than it being a smooth curve, which was the old model, which you can see represented by the dashed line, it's two enormous spikes. And that second spike, you see MWP-1B, that's Meltwater Pulse 1B. And you've got Meltwater Pulse 1A. Meltwater Pulse 1B is dated precisely to 11,600 years ago. This is crazy. It's like everything aligns. Everything aligns.

The nuclear glass that they're finding and the core samples, that's all around the same time period. This was the point I wanted to make. When we talk about these objects coming in at 70,000 miles an hour, they are packing an enormous amount of kinetic energy and heat. And when they hit the ground, there are distinct products left in the soil. And those include nanodiamonds. They're created by the shock and the impact. You can only see them, you know, under a microscope. They're tiny, tiny, tiny things.

And carbon spherules and the melt glass, which is just basically identical to trinitite, which is the melt glass that you get from nuclear explosions. They're called impact proxies, and there's a distinct layer of the soil all around the world dated to 12,800 years ago, which contains this stuff and also contains the evidence of continental wildfires burning. And I think Randall might want to address that issue of continental wildfires and why they happened.

All these images are beautiful, but let's Note that most people are just listening to this So if you're just listening to this those images that Randall put up on the screen show these enormous straight up and down spikes of the water level rising which Has to be caused by some ocean level rising which has to be caused by something extremely dramatic. Just looking at that, like, wow, what happened there? That's nuts. That's the melting of the ice sheets. The sudden, rapid, catastrophic meltdown of the ice sheets, dumping millions of cubic

kilometers of water back into the ocean basins. And how those little dashes on the bottom, the numbers, how many years do they represent? Like that spike that goes straight up and down, the largest spike, how much time does that represent? Well, you've got two here that basically represent the margin of error in the dating. The earliest version of it is the spike you see on the right. The latest version, as you see, is on the left. And it varies between about 14,000 and 13,000 years for the first spike. The second spike is dating now to about, like I said, about 11,600.

The numbers across the bottom are KYR means thousands of years before present. So you can see 9, 10, that would be 10,000 years ago. So essentially, it seems like our Earth went through like a thousand years of horror. A thousand years of hell. It's really impossible to imagine what the world was like then for the people who lived in it. And I think it makes sense of why all around the world, we have a story of a global flood. This is not something confined to the story of Noah in the Bible. This is a universal story of a cataclysm that changed the world and wiped away a former golden age and left us with the present order of things.

All around the world, and secondly all around the world, and this is intriguing, there is a universal fear of comets. Now, why should we be afraid of comets? We see comets up in the sky. They whiz through. They have this nice tail. They look pretty. Why should we be scared of them?

But every culture in the world has myths and traditions that associate comets with disaster. And I think it's pretty obvious why, because this comet impact 12,800 years ago was remembered by the survivors, and they passed that memory down to their children and their children's children. And it's still with us today. And it's now we know based on something very real. Well, it seems like to me as a layperson with all this evidence and all this evidence that correlates, it's all corresponding.

It all seems to fit together. It would seem that this would be something that a lot of mainstream scientists and archaeologists would be extremely interested in. Like, why would they try to ignore something like this? The first thing they've tried to do is to get rid of it. This is often the case where new information emerges that contradicts established theories. And it's a strange phenomenon in science because we like to think of scientists as rational and reasonable people. But the fact is that when you get very committed to a particular model, to a particular idea, I think you start to connect your own personality to it. And any

attack on that idea becomes an existential attack on you yourself. And it is sad because again and again, what we see is the new facts being dismissed because they don't fit the existing theory. Where in fact what we should be doing is modifying the existing theory to explain the newly discovered facts. And this is a problem in the whole history of science. became aware of that problem when i watched the the documentary on the mysteries of the sphinx where dr robert shock met with uh some archaeologist in egypt it wasn't zawi hawass it was a western guy yeah and he met with this guy and they were explaining their theory about the erosions of the sphinx and he was laughing at it latin i mean but openly mocking it. Like, what evidence? Where is this evidence? But it was the way he did it was just so riddled with ego.

I was like, well, how could you? First of all, the concept of 11,000 years ago, when you start thinking about 11,000, that's a long time. You bet. And what evidence really would be there other than stone? It seems to me that it would be very little. I mean, whatever fragments of pottery you'd be lucky to find. We're lucky to find it.

But looking for some massive evidence that clearly shows, beyond any shadow of doubt, well, here it is. I go, oh, boy, you're asking for a lot from 11,000 years ago. And you have something pretty substantial right in front of you. And he's mocking it. Exactly. This is why I've come to view archaeology and history as a kind of more ideology, really, than science. There's an ideological view about how civilization developed, that we have this long, slow, gradual, politically correct rise from the upper Paleolithic, from the hunter-gatherers through the neolithic

into the first cities and we go on and on and then we develop technologies and here we are the apex and the pinnacle of this whole story and gosh we're so proud of ourselves and our achievements and we think we're wonderful and we praise and value our technology i've got nothing against technology but there's a hint of arrogance in this. There's a hint of pride that it was all about us. And I think that once you start introducing this new view of history, that there may have been an earlier civilization,

a high civilization, which was utterly wiped out by a global cataclysm, why it contradicts that ideological position. And you find yourself in ideological struggle with archaeologists. And that's why, you know, so for example, if my book is handed over to any archaeologist to review, they're just going to piss all over it. They're not even probably going to read it. They're just going to say, Hancock, they say again and again, Hancock is a pseudoscientist. Nobody should listen to him. That's their

system of attack is to first of all devalue you so much that nobody will ever listen to you. And that's why I appreciate the support of just real down-to-earth people out there who are looking at this information and finding that actually, yeah, the story of history we've been taught doesn't make sense. And this new information does make sense. Well, this new information, in my eyes, it seems it's so substantial. And there's so much of it it's so so much of it fits together it's incredibly difficult to ignore and much more so than when that documentary in the sphinx was created that was quite a while ago charlton heston was the uh the narrator of it and and um you know at that time uh we were sticking our necks out, putting that information forward.

I was in that documentary as well. But today, things have changed. And what I see is the archaeological mainstream in a state of denial about this information. They just don't want to recognize it and absorb it. But they're going to have to recognize it. It's going to be forced upon them whether they like it or not. It's so sad because, you know, you count on these people to distribute the information, but their egos get involved in things.

And if you've been teaching something for a long time, then it turns out you gave out master's degrees on things that were completely incorrect. Absolutely. It's got to be very hard. Something else, although this sounds a bit conspiratorial, I think the existing view of history is part of a mind control system in our society. It's something that we're presented with, that we take in with our mother's milk, and we're never supposed to question. I think it's – if you control the past, you do actually control the present and the future as well. So, but you mean if you have an absolutely established narrative that you're teaching and you're unwilling to look at any possible variations to that, you're saying like almost

from an authority position, we know what happened and we know where we're going. But if you say, shit, we don't know what happened, then it's well, well then who are you to tell us where we're going? Exactly. And it starts to raise questions over everything actually. Right. Yeah. And we're kind of in this mode now where there's a very large growing political agenda around the idea that humans are the sole cause of global change and that we are the dominant force within this whole process. Now, here we come along and we're saying, well, no,

there's actually been forces unleashed on this planet that really utterly dwarf anything we've done yet. What does that do to that paradigm? You see, that's what I think we're coming down here to. Part of the scenario now is that humans are engaged in causing the sixth great mass extinction, as we talked about in one of the previous. And now we're coming along and saying, well, wait a second, here's something from outer space that has come in and caused the last great mass extinction on Earth. And what's interesting, I found, is that quite a number of the scientists that have been in the opposition to the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, have been in the forefront of pushing

this scenario of human-caused mass extinction and blaming the extinction of the great megafauna that died out 12,000 years ago on human hunters, which again, we talked about that, and I consider that ludicrous that, you know, paleo-Indian hunters using spears are going to cause the extermination of 10 million woolly mammoths before they could even reproduce, along with 120 other species of megafauna. Well, 65% of all mammals in North America were wiped out somewhere around that time. Mega mammals. Mega mammals. Which is over 100 pounds in body weight, essentially. Actually more, like 75%.

75%. 75%. It was almost instantaneous, though, right? I mean, it was over a course of a very short period of time. A very short period of time. The scientists who have been diligently working away in this field since they've published their first paper in 2007 have just brought out a new paper, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, July 2015, where they're doing a statistical analysis of all the sites where the evidence

comes from. And what that tells us is that this is what is referred to as an isochron, this event 12,800 years ago. We're not looking at the effects of 100 or 200 years of events. We're looking at something that happened effectively in a single afternoon across 50 million square kilometers of the Earth's surface. Ooh, that gives me goosebumps. A single afternoon all over the world, everything changes forever. Changes forever. And it's fucked for a thousand years.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And then I'd like, Randall, to address this issue of continent-wide wildfires, because we do see this in the stratum, that when you get this superheated ejector coming down on ancient primal forests, consider the effect. This is Murray Springs, one of the Clovis sites, and this is what is known as the black matte layer.

Where is Murray Springs? It's in Arizona, and it's southern Arizona. And it's near the Clovis site, which is New Mexico. That's the Clovis impact site? Well, no. The Clovis site was where one of the first places in North America where human remains were found in association with extinct mega mammals, such as woolly mammoths. And it's just outside of Clovis New Mexico. They refer to them as the Clovis culture because that culture was one of the casualties of this comet impact. The comet impact is often referred to as the Clovis comet. Yes and in many of these Clovis sites and there's been over 50 of

them around now documented over North America I think about two-thirds of them have this black matte layer, which shows up very clearly in this image. Now that black matte layer is black because of the considerable amount of carbon, carbon soot that's in it. So in other words, right there, that's the evidence of your wildfires, is that this blanket of soot over the continent that left this black mat layer. And below that black mat layer, you'll find extinct mega mammals. Like here, you see the yellow arrow there points to the black mat layer. Now, if you look up, you'll see how it's more buff colored. That was the color of all of this, but the soot that was in that black mat layer has dispersed and colored the other adjacent layers.

But you'll notice the bones below are the bones of extinct mammals. The bones found above it are extant or still existing mammals. And that layer separates these two domains of extinct mammals and extant mammals. Just a very clear line. Yeah, and you can see it. It shows up so clearly right here. To people who are listening to this, when we're looking at the original image that Randall showed,

it's almost like an Oreo cookie. Like there's just a clean line, and then there's the white filling underneath. I mean, it is as clear as day. And what are we talking about? Like how much fire and for how long creates this area? Well, you're basically talking about burning up a considerable portion of the biomass of North America in unglaciated North America to do this. So you have the ice cap north of roughly Minnesota.

And south of it you have a heavily vegetated area covered with primal forests. And that's what goes on fire. And the reason it goes on fire is because when these impactors come in, they generate a huge amount of heat. And what is called ejecta, superheated ejecta, is thrown up into the upper atmosphere and it falls down all over the continent and it sets the world on fire. Oh, God. Now at the base. Perspective is so difficult in this. It's a difficult perspective.

Because there's numbers that you guys are throwing around and there's concepts you're throwing around that I just have to pause when you're saying, wait a minute, I got to try to fit this in somewhere. But it's the whole world on fire. Yeah. This is why I've written this book, because it's mind boggling. It's mind bogboggling. It's mind-boggling material. And up till now, most of the information has been confined to the really rarefied scientific

journals. Very little of it has got out into the public domain. So one of the things I've tried to do is to put this together into a form that's very accessible to the general public, because we all need to know about this. This is our yesterday. This is our background. This is where we come from. The present order of the world has descended from that moment. And what is the mainstream explanation for what we're looking at here? How do they describe this? Well, the mainstream, I mean, the mainstream to me now is Firestone and West and Kennett.

Yeah, and when Randall says Firestone and West and Kennett, he's talking about some of the lead scientists who have presented the evidence for the Younger Dryas impact because they have triumphed. Although they were attacked, and sometimes viciously, and frankly speaking, sometimes dishonestly, they were attacked, but they defended themselves so well and they kept on bringing in new data and new information

that actually now we should be regarding their view as the mainstream. There are a few critics still hanging in there who would like human beings to have been responsible for the extinction of all the mega mammals and who just are in denial about the climate change at that time. But they're no longer the mainstream in my view. Well, one of the problems with that theory is what you showed the last time you were here, the evidence of these woolly mammoths that died instantaneously and the massive fields of them, that something had to happen and ones with their legs broken, just bent over from the impact. It's pretty clear something went down. And all of these pieces point together and including looking at this which is just this is blowing my mind this idea of the world on fire it's just well there were some places that apparently got spared yeah like australia or something well australia actually suffered a major mass extinction

but earlier probably from some previous event maybe 30,000 years ago. Just trying to figure out where to go if it happens again. East Central Africa seems to have been one of the places of refuge because if we look at the distribution of mega mammals in the world today, where do we find the greatest concentration? In Africa, right? Well, Africa has retained 90% of its mega mammals from the Pleistocene, whereas North America lost 75%. If you go back to North America during the Ice Age, there was as many mega mammals, if not more species, than there is in Africa today. But what we see is that extinction relates directly to habitat loss.

And basically, not much survived in either north or south america north and south america were both severely affected by these events and lost 75 of their mega mammals eurasia lost between depending on where you go between 30 and 50 africa only lost about 10 of them and that's why you see so many big animals still in africa today and a lot of them i think probably dispersed from the area around um the great rift zone it seems like in a lot of the areas actually where we're finding early hominids is in that same area that seems like for whatever reason it was spared somewhat of the the extreme severity that the rest of the planet suffered.

It's an interesting situation because when we look at the arguments of history and archaeology, very little of the story is told in North America as it's taught in schools and universities today. You know, they look at places like Sumer in Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. And further down in South America, some of the great cultures of the Andes. But it's like North America is missing from the map. They talk about hunter-gatherers coming in here across the Bering Strait. And there's still a dogged faction of archaeology that wants to maintain that that just happened about 13,000 years ago. And that there was no human beings in the Americas before that, although the mass of contradictory evidence is overwhelming

that dogma as well. It's obvious that the Americas were populated long before that and those populations did not only come in across the Bering Strait. They came in other ways as well. And then there just seems to be nothing for a very long time and North America is kind of left out of the story of civilization. Well, now I think we know why because North America was at the heart of this disaster. It was at the absolute epicenter

and the slate was completely wiped clean here and that's what archaeologists are looking at. They're seeing a wiped clean slate and they think they're seeing the beginning of something. Actually, they're not. They're seeing the movement on of and they think they're seeing the beginning of something. Actually, they're not. They're seeing the movement on of something after a horrendous disaster.

Wow, it's so hard to wrap my mind around this idea that for literally a thousand years, the Earth was just riddled with asteroidal impacts and fire and nuclear winter because of the dust and mass extinction.

It's so hard, the numbers that you're throwing around, the ideas behind it. It's very difficult for folks to... Can I put something in there that brings it home in a way? See, this event 12,800 years ago, we know now it was caused by fragments of a very large comet. And the work suggests that that comet may have been more than 100 kilometers in diameter originally when it entered the inner solar system. That's like 62 miles, right? A big old comet. These comets, they come in from deep space. How big was the one that killed the dinosaurs?

Like five miles? Well, that's thought to be 10 kilometers wide. Six miles. That object, six miles wide. Ten times that big? Yeah. These things come in from deep space. There are reservoirs of comets.

There's a place that they call the Oort Cloud, which is just so far away that it's almost impossible to imagine it. But it contains trillions of comets. And often they're in stable orbits. They're not coming into the inner solar system. But as the solar system orbits around the center of the galaxy, our galaxy is the Milky Way. And we are in orbit around the center of the galaxy.

Our sun, our solar system, everything is in orbit around the center of the galaxy. And that orbit is not only in the plane of the galaxy. Our sun, our solar system, everything is in orbit around the center of the galaxy. And that orbit is not only in the plane of the galaxy. Imagine a dolphin diving up and down, coming out of the surface of the sea, descending below, rising up again. That's what the solar system is doing. And those passages through the galactic plane disturb the Oort cloud, and they send comets winging in to the inner solar system. Thank God for Jupiter. Jupiter, with its huge gravity, is the great protector of the Earth. We should all wake up every day and say, thank you, Jupiter.

Thank you, Jupiter. This doesn't happen too often, but every now and then a comet gets past Jupiter's guard and comes in and enters the inner solar system. And the calculations show this happened about 20,000 years ago. And that comet went into an orbit that crosses the orbit of the Earth twice a year. We are still crossing the orbit of that comet twice a year. And there is still a very disturbing amount of debris within it. It's called the Taurid meteor stream.

We've actually just finished our latest passage through the Taurid meteor stream. The Earth passes through the Taurid meteor stream twice a year. It takes 12 days to pass through it because the Taurid meteor stream, more numbers, is 30 million kilometers wide, and we orbit at the rate of 2.5 million kilometers a day. So 12 days to pass through it and in the last 11 000 or so years we've been lucky we've been passing through this 30 million mile wide stream we've been passing through bits where there are just filaments of small debris but the evidence is

that it is actually full of large rocky rocky debris including one object that may be as much as 30 kilometers in diameter sitting in that torrid meteor stream. So it's like I compare it to like strapping on a blindfold and crossing a six lane highway and just hoping that you don't get hit by a truck. You know, that's what it that's what it comes down to. And we've been we've been lucky so far. Actually, the most recent definite impact from the torrid meteor stream was in 1908, and that was in Russia, in Siberia. It's called the Tunguska event.

As I said, there's two passages through the stream, one in June, end of June, early July, and one in November. And this was at the end of June. An object, not very big, about 100 meters in diameter, came out of the Taurid meteor stream, entered the atmosphere of the Earth, and actually blew up in the sky. It was an airburst about 5km above the ground. It flattened 80

million trees across 2,000 square kilometres. I'm sorry I keep using kilometres. That's fine. 2,000 square kilometres of the Earth's surface. That's an area about the size of the city of London. If that impact had happened over an inhabited area, hundreds of thousands of people would be killed.

And we would all be paying much more attention to the Taurid meteor stream today than we are presently doing. We should be paying attention to it. So we just got super lucky that it hit in a very lightly populated area. And it didn't even hit. It blew up in the sky above us. Pull up, see if you can find some image of Tunguska because it's pretty staggering. And it literally looks like there was like a matchstick forest

that someone pushed over. Like a series of dominoes or something. Oh, Jamie pulled that one up. Jamie's a wizard. Kid's on the ball. We'll get him over there. God. So here's the thing. We are still interacting with the debris of this comet that changed the world 12,800 years ago. It's not something remote and distant.

It's part of our daily lives. And it is something we should be paying attention to. And a number of astronomers are very concerned about the Taurid meteor stream. Now, I don't want to be the one who goes around the world, you know, wearing the sandwich board, saying that doom is nigh. Literally, the sky is falling. Yeah. I don't want to be that.

I don't want to manifest that. I don't want to bring that down. I actually want to say that there's something positive to say about this. We are almost certainly the first civilization that's ever existed on this planet that has the capacity to intervene in our cosmic environment, should we choose to do so. We can make sure that we are not the next lost civilization.

We can make sure that life and light continue on this planet and that our story continues. But we need to pay attention to our cosmic environment. But we need to pay attention to our cosmic environment. And a number of scientists are now saying the same thing, that it's irresponsible of us to pretend that impacts like this, may they just happen every hundred million years, we don't power to do something about it. So I would suggest, instead of wasting, you know, trillions of dollars globally, creating weapons of mass destruction to destroy one another, and to manifest the hatred and fear and suspicion that are just whizzing around the world right now, we should be looking at a grand human project, a cooperative effort to make our cosmic environment safe. And we have the technology now. It's just a matter of choice. It's just a matter of budget. Trillions of dollars are spent on arms, and roughly $20 to $30 million is spent a year on so-called space watch. It's a ridiculous chump change, given the nature of the threat and the implications.

About the same as the cost to run one McDonald's restaurant for a year, is what we're spending on studying the cosmic environment in terms of threats. That's a hilarious comparison. Yeah. What a resourceful little freaky animal people are. If you really stop and think about it, almost wiped off the face of the planet, you know, 10,000, 12,000 years ago.

And then we reach a point where here we are in 2015. And through all these inventions, we're starting to rediscover what our history truly is and rediscover the history of the earth. And it's it's interplay with all these cosmic forces. You know, modern humans have now what, 190,000? Yeah, the earliest I mean, the earliest definite anatomically modern human skeletal remains date back about 196,000 years. There's some other plausible ones at about 210,000 years. Nothing before that. It doesn't mean that we were not anatomically modern before that. It may just mean that archaeologists haven't found the data yet.

But we can be sure that people like you and me have been around for about 200,000 years with the anatomically modern form and the anatomically modern brain. So there's a mystery right there. Why did we wait 190,000 years to establish the first civilizations? It raises the possibility that we could have done so much earlier and that the slate has been wiped clean. Think about it this way, Joe. My grandfather was born in 1895. The main mode of transportation, aside from railroads at that time, was horseback, right? His grandfather, you know, would have been born pre-civil war. So in five generations, we've gone from the very first railroads, the beginning of the industrial revolution to where we are now in five generations.

Now, if you go back 200,000 years, say 196,000, and we divide that by 25. I love when Randall breaks out the calculator. We're looking at almost 8,000 generations of humans. Wow. Now, think about that. Within five generations, we've gone from 90% dominant, agriculturally based, subsistence farming, right, feudal system, to where we are now. But now we've got 8,000 generations of humans on this planet. Who knows what we may have

accomplished in the past? But once you put this perspective, and you've got to understand that the catastrophe we're talking about 12,000 years ago, while all the evidence suggests it was the most severe, probably at least within 5 million years, because the last time we can find a species loss equivalent to the terminal Pleistocene species loss was five million years ago the hemp event it's called um which then i would then consider that again as a as a measuring stick for habitat loss which would in turn be a measure of the severity of whatever happened but the the point is is that in the time that we humans have been around, there have been multiple catastrophes of a global scale, not as severe as the one we're talking about here. But certainly the framework of this planet has been shaken numerous times. And in 200,000 years, we've had probably four great glacial cycles that have come and gone. Now, just a glacial cycle alone, I mean, think about that, what the ice will do

to the landscape and dropping sea levels 400 feet. And now during an ice age, you've got to bear in mind that probably the most habitable place to be on the planet is going to be on coastlines, along the mouths of rivers and so forth. What happens when all that ice melts and sea level comes up three or 400 feet? And it's going to pretty much erase most of the evidence of human habitation. Although, and I think I talked about this last time, and you would probably concur with this, the importance of marine archaeology. It's extremely important. Yes.

But again, unfortunately, marine archaeology has its eye off the ball. Most of the resources in marine archaeology go into shipwrecks, looking for shipwrecks. And, you know, I get that. It's really interesting to look at shipwrecks. But there is a prejudice in archaeology which says there could have been no interesting civilization before 12,000 years ago. So since those lands that were submerged by rising sea levels have been underwater for 10,000 or 12,000 years, we're not really interested in human habitations there. And this is the problem. A very focused effort needs to be made to look at these lost lands. I can put that in miles, 10 million square miles of the Earth's surface, roughly Europe and China added together, was submerged by the rising sea levels at the end of the last ice age.

Jesus Christ. That's what's missing from the record, you know. And again, we're talking about wiping the slate clean. And Randall's right. Those ice caps that sit on top of a continent, which are mountain high, they're going to just grind to powder anything that lies below them. So was there a civilization there before where the ice cap formed? Who knows?

Right. A mile high of ice. Even more than that in some cases. Over central Canada, it might have been as much as two miles. Two miles of ice. Just pushing across the ground like an eraser. Exactly.

And crushing the surface of the ground down. I think in our discussions of Atlantis, we covered that a little bit. Crushing the surface of the ground down, I think in our discussions of Atlantis we covered that a little bit. Crushing the surface of the land down by perhaps a couple of thousand feet. Isostatic depression. Remember the geology lesson I gave you last time? Yes. About isostatic depression.

And we discussed how at this very moment your ass is demonstrating an important geological phenomena of isostatic depression sitting on that cushion that you're sitting on and if you were to stand up what happens when you stand up the cushion comes back up doesn't it it's exactly what happens and you can almost picture the planet breathing in effect the the the ice is released from the continental surface the continental surface begins to rebound the weight is transferred back into the ocean basins, and there has to be what's called rheology, which is the study of the distribution of the inner mass of the earth, requires that there be compensation. So if in one area of the surface the land is rising, somewhere else it has to be subsiding. And the obvious place would be that as you transfer the weight from the continent back into the ocean basins, that the ocean basins are going to subsiding. And the obvious place would be that as you transfer the weight from the

continent back into the ocean basins, that the ocean basins are going to subside. And this brings us to the whole question of the scientific veracity of a sunken land mass. I think you have an interesting point on the aeroars in this sense because there you have this massive weight. It's like a seesaw. There you have this massive weight pressing down on the North American continent and suddenly it's lifted. That massive weight pushed down North America but it lifted up other areas,

the other end of the seesaw. Then the weight comes off, this end goes up and the other end goes down and suddenly you get the possibility of the submergence of a landmass. It just falls under the sea. And there is actually considerable empirical evidence

suggesting that there was massive post-glacial subsidence along the mid-Atlantic ridge. Which is where the Azores are. Yeah. And which is pretty much where Plato said Atlantis was. Wasn't there some discovery of some concentric circles that

were submerged somewhere near Spain that they considered to be a possibility of Atlantis? Yeah, that's off Cadiz. Is that near Spain? Yeah. I think it's much more recent. Okay. Much more recent than the information we're looking at.

So it's just another port that was submerged. That was submerged. There could be a lot of reasons why this happens. Actually, it's happening in the UK, where I'm from, because the ice sheets in the UK were on the north of the UK, over Scotland, and they were pressing Scotland down, and they caused the southern

part of England to rise up. Then when you take those ice sheets off, the southern part starts to go down, so that's places like the Isle of Wight and the English Tunnel. They're sinking beneath the sea because of this. Still, the effect of that rebound is happening today. That's called the glacial forebulge, where outside the glaciers,

the land is pushed up. You know, this speaks to how people have a hard time accepting some of this new information. I have a friend who's a scientist, and the last time you were on, she said to me, did you have a climate denier on your show?

Yeah. A climate change denier? And I said, he's definitely not denying it. No. No. But some people, that's all they hear. When you bring forth a non-mainstream point of view or a controversial perspective. Instead of considering the possibility, it almost immediately gets dismissed as being something else. Well, this climate change thing is another ideological struggle.

Yeah, sure, climate change is taking place. But what are the causes for this? Are we so sure that it's all caused by human beings? I would say there's very good reason for humanity to clean up our act in lots of ways, regardless of the issue of climate change. We're abusing Mother Earth. We're living upon this planet like parasites and destroying it. We thoughtlessly create gigantic pools of pollution.

We're crazy enough, insane enough, to actually invent nuclear weapons and detonate the bloody things. There's lots about our behavior that we need to fix because it's right to fix it. Philosophically right. We should not behave that way. We should not behave that way to one another. We should not behave that way to planet Earth. But to say that we need to fix our behavior because of global warming, that's an ideological argument. And that argument remains to be properly tested yes global warming

is occurring but are we the cause of it or is something else some some grander scale cosmic effect involved in this we we talked about that considerably and i noticed in a lot of the comments from from our last discussion most of the critical comments were people you know not liking the idea that i had questioned the dogma of global warming. But there are some facts that you can't escape. The global warming began 200 years ago. And we see that the glaciers from the Little Ice Age began to shrink back in the early 19th century. Before there was, you know, a century before there was any significant human contribution of CO2 to the atmosphere. So something was driving that warming that began. And it's important to realize that the Little Ice Age was probably the coldest

period since the end of the Great Ice Age. In fact, the data overwhelmingly supports that, and that the glaciers grew to their largest extent around the planet in 10,000 years. So when we're talking about glacier recession, it's important to understand what the baseline is. Our baseline in this case is the biggest the glaciers have been in 10,000 years. And what's interesting, and this is going on right now, as the glaciers have been receding, geologists and biologists and glaciologists and so forth have been studying the landscapes that are being revealed as the ice shrinks back. And you know what they're finding is the remains of forests that had been overrun by the Little Ice Age glaciers up, you know, and peat bogs and things

that would suggest that prior to the onset of the Little Ice Age, those valleys that were filled with ice from roughly 1400 to 1800 were actually forested because the ice came down and overran these forests. And now it's receding back and revealing that there were forests there. So that tells you that, you know, at some point, probably going back to the medieval warm period, those areas that have been glaciated during the early part of the 20th century were actually free of ice. And so, you know, the climate has been extremely dynamic. That's the thing we have to emphasize, all by itself, without any help from humans. And this is what I've been saying, is that we have to look at that and realize that, yeah, humans are a factor.

You know, somebody I did post and said all the other factors I had mentioned as, you know, ocean currents and wind currents and geomagnetic field and cosmic rays and volcanism and all that had all been investigated and dismissed. And the only thing left was the human contribution. But, you know, to me, that's really, we're putting all our eggs in that basket, and that could turn out to be very dangerous, because we're so focused now on our own contribution that we might be overlooking the fact that there have been natural factors driving climate change over and over and over again.

I mean, because I still have not heard any consensus on what has caused the planet to first go into an ice age and come back out of an ice age. And I think that what Graham and I are talking about actually presents a possible solution to what could have brought this planet out of the ice age, something on a grand cosmic scale. And the other point I think I'd like to make is that we have to really to understand our planet as a system. We have to realize that it's part of a cosmic ecosystem. And the cosmos has been a much bigger player in what's been going on down here than has been previously understood or appreciated.

And I think our ancestors probably did understand that. I think they did understand it. understand that. I think they did understand it. The focus on the skies, if you go back into ancient times, is so strong. This notion of as above, so below. That we are connected to the cosmos. This is something that we're tending to forget

in the modern world. Again, because we're so puffed up with pride. Anyway, we can't see the sky if we live in cities. That's, I think, a big issue. Light pollution. It's just like a haze up there. We don't see anything. So we're actually cut off from the cosmos psychologically. And that's a mistake because we are part of this giant cosmic environment and it affects us. And one of the way it affects us is the way that

comets come into the inner solar system from time to time from deep space. I was camping in Montana recently. And when you're out at night and you look at that night sky and there's no light pollution yeah it's just a totally different perspective isn't it and it gives you a different sense of where you are in the universe because we're so and it's not it's not necessarily our fault it's almost like we've put up a curtain over the heavens and we can't see through the curtain because we've decided that we like light and we like traffic lights and you know building lights and all this jazz and we don't realize until we're out in the woods or in the wild until you're in the wilderness and there's no light

pollution you really don't realize what we're missing and what we're sacrificing in order to have these lights the view of the heavens it's it's so it's psychedelic in a way because it makes makes you feel like, oh my God, we're really flying through space. And nice that Mother Nature has provided us with those plants that really help us to appreciate it from time to time. I try to go every year to the Keck Observatory on the Big Island. I try to schedule my holidays as much as possible around the time where there's no moon because it is unbelievable because the keck observatory is more than 9 000 feet above seal there's a the visitor center and then there's

the observatories above but you really don't even know how to go past the visitor center but they're um the way they have it set up they have these special street lights all throughout the big island with diffused lighting so it doesn't interfere it doesn't give you light pollution and when you're up there you're the you go through the clouds and the view is insane it doesn't it doesn't even look real yeah it doesn't even look real like you see all the stars you're like this can't be real how could this be up there every day and we don't see it yeah but what we've done is create all this incredible stuff, these streets and buildings and laptops and cell phones. And in doing so, we have robbed ourselves of a perspective.

Yeah, and it's weird because we have this technology that enables us to go around the whole world and even go out into outer space. But actually, in a way, it's narrowed our focus. We focus in on the technology and its products, and we forget about the majestic cosmic and earth environment in which we live, how sacred it is, how beautiful it is, how meaningful it is to all of us. And that was the image that our ancestors always had. And that's probably why they concentrated on it so much. And the things that happened up there were evident to them.

I mean, because these days, how many people see meteors? Living in an urban environment, you never see that hardly, unless it's really spectacular. But you go out, like you said, in Montana, or one of my favorite places to go out in the high desert country. And there you really, it's some stars stars almost you can reach out and touch them. I think that one of the most important things that we could do for future generations is part of our educational curriculum for young people is get them out of the cities, into nature, into the tremendous, you know, where they can actually see the sky. Because, I mean, living in Atlanta, I'll talk to people, even grown-up people

that have no clue, have no clue. You know, you couldn't, they couldn't find the North Star, they couldn't find the plane of the ecliptic if their life depended on it. They, you know, they're just, we've become cut off from that level. And I think that that's, it's important for us to keep that because our consciousness is linked to this greater domain and, and we have segregated ourselves from that. And, and I think that there's something there, you know, amazingly, it's, it's a grounding experience when you get out and you, you begin to see the sky and you can

actually, um, you know, begin actually begin to figure out and identify the constellations to know where the planets are to look in the sky. It's really good mental exercise. It's something worth anybody doing. Get to grips with all that up there as the ancients did. It gets your mind

working and it may even have been used deliberately for that purpose in ancient times as a kind of initiation system. If you can get this, then you move on to the next level. You know, that's the kind of idea. It was a critical part of education where it's very rarely even discussed today. Rarely discussed today. And look again at the ideology.

So, for example, if you talk about astrology to most any mainstream scientist, they're going to laugh in your face. They're going to say pseudoscience because they're so locked into this Earth-centered perspective, which convinces them that the cosmos does have no effect on us. So how can changing patterns of the stars, which zodiacal constellation is sitting behind the sun at a particular time, how can that affect us? How can when we were born affect us? I don't think we should throw that baby out with the bathwater too fast I think we're looking at an ancient science with with astrology and I think it's worth it's been Diluted and prostituted in the modern world

But if you go back to the antiquity you go back to the real origins of this and you start finding some very interesting Information coming out. There's a fantastic book by a guy called Rick Tarnas called Cosmos and Psyche. And he's a real mainstream, a very major academic and he's got into this and he's shown that actually, yeah, astrology does have effects. So we should not

deny our cosmic environment. That's the first thing we need to do to connect to it. And we shouldn't close ourself off to avenues of inquiry for ideological reasons. It's noticeable in this field of ancient history how archaeologists throw around words like pseudo-archaeologist or pseudo-scientist.

That's meant to be an instant dismissal. Just like climate denier. Climate denier. You call somebody a climate denier today, that's like saying, don't listen to anything that guy has to say. Never listen to it again. These are ideological tools which are being used to straitjacket the human mind and to stop us thinking outside the box. And if there's ever a time where we needed to think outside the box, I would say that

time is right now. Isn't it ironic that in this time of more information available to the average person than ever before, that this also has coincided with our lack of appreciation for what's above us. It's very strange that... It's a very curious phenomenon. And here's an interesting perspective. You know, as we're talking about how dynamic the planet is and how it's changed and how

dramatically different, which it is. I mean, if we go back to the end of the Ice Age, you know, you go east of here out of the Mojave Desert, that was lush grasslands and forests. You go out here to the Santa Rosa Islands, you know, out here, they were all forested with oak trees and beech trees and mammothus exilis, which was the pygmy mammoth, you know. I mean, everything down here changes dramatically. But when we go out and we look at the sky, we're basically seeing the same sky that our ancestors of 20,000 years ago were looking at. And that's something to keep in mind, because there's something, there's a backdrop to all of this drama and change here below that's pretty

much, for the most part, remained consistent. But within that backdrop of consistency, every once in a while, something shifts. And when it shifts out there, I think our ancestors knew that there was a direct consequence here below. And that's one of the reasons they were so obsessed with being able to track motion. You know, all of these ancient observatories from Stonehenge on down the line to, you know, the mound structures here in North America. Let's not forget Gobekli Tepe, a profoundly astronomical site. Gobekli Tepe, yes. These were astronomical observatories using the horizon essentially as a telescope

by which very intimate and intricate movements within that backdrop of fixed stars could actually be observed, possibly for predictive capabilities and how are the calculations made like when an archaeologist finds a site like go beckley go go beckley tepe how do they correlate the construction of the site with the constellation first off most archaeologists don't do that at all because they just don't do astronomy they don't get it their their eyes are on the ground at their feet. Because astronomy is not relevant to them, they project that onto the past and imagine that it was not relevant to

the past. And that's one of the big mistakes I think that archaeology makes. There are people called archaeoastronomers who are looking at the astronomy of ancient cultures, and some of them have done very good work. But really, there are certain key indicators. The alignment of the site, what's it pointing at? And does that alignment change down the ages? You can sometimes establish that a particular axis of a particular temple in Egypt, for example, was shifted over a period of 2,000 or 3,000 years several times. And why? Because they were tracking the changing rising point of the star Sirius,

which they connected in their system of ideas to the goddess Isis. They were tracking that rising point, which changes because of changes in the sky. I mean, long story short, the Earth wobbles on its axis. And that, since the Earth is our viewing platform from which we observe the stars, changes of orientation of the Earth in space do change the rising times of particular stars at particular times of year. And this was clearly tracked by the ancients. So you can say that if you find anywhere a monument that is perfectly aligned to true north, south, east, and west, you can be absolutely sure that astronomers were involved. If it's tracking the rising sun on the spring equinox or on the winter or summer solstice, astronomers were there. They were right there when they made that monument.

Well, that's one of the scariest, well, not the scariest, but most astounding things when you consider the ancients that they had an understanding of the procession, the equinoxes. Exactly. Which is what, it was a 26,000 year cycle? 26,000 year cycle, 25,920 years. How? A 26,000-year cycle, 25,920 years. How?

Very long, very precise observations and the motive to make those observations, that this was important to them, and they sought to pass down that importance to us. Very important work by two historians of science called Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Deschend. Back in the 60s, they wrote a book called Hamlet's Mill, which tracks this ancient knowledge of procession. And they trace it back, and this was very politically incorrect at that time because Giorgio de Santillana was the professor of the history of science at MIT. They trace it back to what they call some almost unbelievable civilization of prehistoric antiquity

that made this object. They found the data encoded in myths and traditions all around the world. And I do go into this in Magicians of the Gods. They found it encoded as though the data were so important that it had to be passed down to the future. So the numbers that relate to procession of the equinoxes, and they're all based on the number 72 and multiples of that number. Why? Because it takes 72 years for one degree of processional change to unfold.

And that's like holding your finger up to the horizon. That one degree is just that one finger width of change on the horizon. Very precise observations are needed to do it. It's encoded in myths and traditions. are needed to do it. It's encoded in myths and traditions, and it looks like somebody at some point decided this information is so important, we must make sure that it stays permanently in human culture.

So what we're going to do is we're going to encode it in great stories, and those stories can then be passed on by storytellers who will have an ethic that they must tell the story true. It doesn't matter whether they understand the scientific information in the story or not. All that matters is that they pass it on. And so in the oldest myths and traditions of mankind, we have compelling evidence for scientific knowledge of the phenomenon that we call the procession of the equinoxes today.

Which has been referred to in Hamlet's Mill as the great year. The great year. The great year. Which is the full cycle, 25,920 years, a great circle in the heavens. It's very evident if you've got thousands of years to watch the sky. It's very evident at the pole. Our pole star presently is Polaris. And that's just simply because the extended north pole of the earth points most directly at that particular star in the sky.

But it hasn't always pointed at Polaris because of the wobble on the axis of the Earth, and it won't always point at Polaris in the future. The pole star changes, but you need to observe the skies for very long periods of time, keep detailed records to get to grips with this phenomenon. This, therefore, testifies to the fact that some ancient culture was doing this in a very systematic way. It's like a ghostly fingerprint of an advanced scientific knowledge impressed upon the oldest myths and traditions of our planet. Has it been accepted that things like the Mayan temples were built to mirror the

constellations? Is that accepted by mainstream archaeologists? It is accepted because we know that the Maya were an astronomical culture. And it is accepted that they were building their temples in connection to the sky. And the whole phenomenon of the Mayan calendar, which we all heard a lot about in 2012, is another factor to take into account. The Mayan calendar, in my view, is another factor to take into account. The Mayan calendar, in my view, is another artifact of a lost civilization. This is that was handed down from a former people, perhaps to the Olmecs and then to the Maya who succeeded them. It's accepted, but the implications of it are not taken properly into account.

of it are not taken properly into account. Remember 21st of December 2012, there was all that fuss and nonsense about the end of the world happening then, and it didn't. But the Maya never said that. They said that the end of a great cycle happened then, which would ultimately transform the world. But what it was actually locked into, and I need to pay tribute to another researcher here, and his name is John Major Jenkins. John Major Jenkins has done fantastic work on the Mayan calendar. And a decade before 2012, he was telling people, look, this is not talking about the end of the world on a specific day, on the 21st of December 2012. There's a calculation behind this.

And what he showed in that calculation is that it is the position of the winter solstice sun against the background of the constellations. And what has been happening for the last 5,000 years because of precession is that the winter solstice sun, 21st of December, against the background of the constellations has been gradually shifting towards alignment with the center of the galaxy. And that alignment happened on the 21st of December 2012, but it's not an instant. It's a window, and that window is about 80 years wide, roughly from 1960 to 2040. That was what was focused on in the Mayan calendar,

a calendar that can predict eclipses of the moon 200,000 years into the future or 200,000 years into the past. Incredible, stunning accuracy. A better estimate of the length of the solar year than we use today in our modern calculations. Really? Yeah. Wow.

High science encoded in that calendar. Why don't we just adopt the Mayan calendar? If it's better than what we have, I don't... We're now living in the fifth age of the world, according to the Mayan calendar. Why don't we just adopt the Mayan calendar? If it's better than what we have, I don't... Yeah, we're now living in the fifth age of the world, according to the Mayan calendar. For day-to-day use. It may not have been that practical. It's probably not good for your iPhone.

It wouldn't make a good app. I bet they have a Mayan calendar app. I bet they have a Mayan calendar app. I'm sure they do. You can think of one half of a degree. Graham said one degree every 72 years, right? One degree within the great year is like one day out of the great year, right? So you could think of 72 years as basically being a human life.

So an average human life is roughly like a day of the great year. That's one way, one perspective. That's interesting. Yeah. one perspective that's interesting yeah yeah now what he said about the window is because you know you can't define the center of the galaxy with an exact precise point there's a diffuse area there and every 72 years the the spring point is moving one degree which is twice the diameter of a full moon full moon moon is a half a degree, right? Okay.

And I think that possibly one of the importances of monitoring, because you can't really, you know, you can't go out and look at the sun, you know, and say, okay, here's the sun relative to this backdrop of this constellation. However, you can look at a full lunar eclipse, and then you will know that the sun is 180 degrees around so by monitoring lunar eclipses you can actually position the sun quite precisely and know where it is in the sky because obviously you can't go out and look at the sun and see what stars it's it's related to right right but during a lunar eclipse right lunar stars it's related to. Right, right. But during a lunar eclipse, a lunar eclipse, it's 180 degrees, almost precisely on the other side of the earth from the sun. So can I just jump in for a second?

Because I have an image here. I don't know if we can get it on. Go back and tap it. And it's this image on this side. It's a pillar richly carved showing a… Is that pillar 14? That's pillar 43 in enclosure D. Now, I'm not going to go into it in detail now.

I've seen that online. Jamie will find images online. I just want to make the point, and I go into this in this book, Magicians of the Gods, that that appears to be a diagram of the sky at the winter solstice in our epoch. The round dot above the vulture's wing, the round circle, represents the sun. And what we're looking at is an ancient constellation diagram. The constellations that we call Sagittarius and Scorpio

stand on either side of the galactic center of the dark rift at the heart of the Milky Way, which the Maya saw as the womb of cosmic rebirth. And it's precisely that image that is depicted there. I back it up chapter and verse in the book. You'll just have to take my word for it. Is that where we see the scorpion below? Yeah, there's an ancient memory

that there should be a scorpion in that area of the sky, and it's impressed here on this pillar. And what are the other constellation clues? Well, up on the right, you'll see, first of all, see the vulture with its wings outstretched and the sun over the wing. Then go right of there, you'll see a bird. That small bird is actually the head of our constellation of Scorpio. The tail of our constellation of Scorpio overlaps the scorpion underneath the pillar. But go above the small bird, and you'll see a serpent there, a snake, and beside it another bird.

That looks like a penis. Those represent – we call those constellations today Ophiuchus, the serpent holder, which is represented by the bird there. And we call the serpent constellation Serpens. Other constellations are also involved. This is spooky and eerie because it appears there's overwhelming evidence that the people who made Gobekli Tepe had a profound knowledge of precession. There's overwhelming evidence that the people who made Gobekli Tepe had a profound knowledge of precession. And it appears that they deliberately sent forward into time in this time capsule a picture of the sky in our age.

And that is a staggering possibility that I investigate here. I don't understand how it's in our age. Well, it's only at the winter solstice in our age that the sun sits over the center of the galaxy. The winter solstice in the area that the ancient Maya called the cosmic womb. There's a dark rift in the Milky Way at that point. And they saw that as the cosmic womb. So it symbolizes a moment of rebirth. And the evidence is that they'd been tracking the movement of the sun on the winter solstice, which is also the end of the year and the rebirth of the new year. They've been tracking it to the point where they could project

forward and they could envisage the sky in our epoch today. The Maya could do that. And what I'm suggesting is that's done at Gobekli Tepe as well. Well, it's very hard for me to interpret this. I'm seeing the vulture playing basketball trying to get away from the scorpion and there's a penis trying to attack them yeah i'm not exactly sure no the photograph alone that's just the that's just the heart of the mystery right you have to get into the logic of it and compare it with the existing constellations and i've tried to do that well it's also fascinating that all of these images were carved in 3D relief. So instead of being, what that means is instead of being drawn like into like, you know, people think about like wet cement, you can draw your

name in wet cement. Instead of that, what they've done is they've removed everything around it to create these images, which is a much more sophisticated way. This is what's called high relief. Interestingly, you can see at the top of the pillar, there are three things that look like handbags. That symbol crops up all over the world. It crops up in Mexico, it crops up in Mesopotamia, it crops up in India, everywhere.

And again, I think we're looking at symbolism that goes back to a very remote period, which we know is at least as old as 11,600 years. Maybe what they're trying to say is that shopping will be the end of us all. I think those bags held their stash. Really? And I'm half serious. Because this is another issue that is ignored by the mainstream,

is the use of psychedelics in ancient civilizations was fundamental to the quality of those civilizations. And this is another area we're in ideological denial about because the powers that be in our society don't like psychedelics. They don't want ancient cultures to have liked them either. And they just ignore the evidence for that. I think it's one of the main points of view that when you don't consider them, it makes me really reluctant to listen to a lot of the other things you have to say

because it's undeniable the impact those things have on human consciousness. Undeniable. And it's also undeniable that many, many, many civilizations use them as a part of their spiritual rituals. And the fact that this is not thought of as an important aspect of our history when it all means to me is the people that are talking about it haven't experienced exactly that's the problem yeah the archaeologists who are the entrusted with interpreting our past to us unfortunately most of them have never taken a psychedelic in their life you just don't know

what the experience look i just need 15 minutes of your time. One DM teacher, 15 minutes, and the whole thing will be so much clearer. So much clearer. Exactly. I think it's an important experience for archaeologists to have because it was a universal experience in the ancient world. We demonize psychedelics today, and we pretend that they are just totally negative things. But in the ancient world, they were revered and enshrined. They were at the heart of the ancient mysteries.

The Eleusinian mysteries in ancient Greece used a potion related to LSD, which brought about a revelation for the initiates, changed their lives, just in the way that a powerful psychedelic trip can change our lives today. So just like writing about history and the origins of civilization without taking account of, whoops, this gigantic cataclysm that happened 12,800 years ago, that's a mistake that archaeology is making. The other mistake they're making is they're not considering the role of altered states of consciousness in ancient civilizations. Ideological blinders keep us from looking at possibilities.

I don't know whether or not that's stash or whether it's just chicks' handbags. It's saying shopping. It's malls. Malls will ruin us all. That's what I'm getting at. But the weird thing is that this symbolism is all over the world. What if Gobekli Tepe was a mall? Now you may have something there.

The symbolism of these purses? Yeah. It's found all over the world. For example, we'd have to find an image, but there's the earliest image of the figure known as Quetzalcoatl in Mexico. Survives from the Olmec area of the Gulf of Mexico. And it was found at a site called La Venta, along with a lot of other buried stone artifacts. And it shows a man sitting within the coils of a serpent,

and that serpent has a crest on its head, because that's what Quetzalcoatl means. It means a feathered serpent. And that man is holding one of those bags, just the same as the... Really? Yeah. Whoa.

The Sumerian fish man? The oannis, the uanadapa, of those bags just the same as the... Really? Yeah. Whoa. The Sumerian fish man. The Oannes, the Uwana Dapa, the originator of civilization in Sumer, ancient Sumer according to their mythology. He's always depicted holding one of these bags as well. So I find myself wondering, are we looking at the symbolism of some ancient brotherhood, you know, who passed around the world seeding civilizations and that this was the equivalent of their, I don't know, their Masonic handshake or something. This was their badge of recognition, this bag that they carried. Well, it's just speculation, right?

It's pure speculation. It's pure speculation. So because of the fact that they've accepted that the Mayan temples are aligned with the constellations, have they decided to look at other archaeological discoveries in the same light? Well, as I say, there is a specialized subdivision of archaeology, which is called archaeoastronomers. An accepted subdivision. An accepted subdivision. called archaeoastronomers. An accepted subdivision. An accepted subdivision. These are archaeologists who've been trained in astronomy,

but they've also been trained in the fundamental dogmas of the discipline of archaeology, which is that there can be no lost civilization, that archaeology has already told pretty much the full story of humanity, and all that awaits is to fill in the details. This is the dogma of archaeology that is taken in from the moment that somebody decides to become an archaeologist. It's part of the training.

And actually, if you try and go against that dogma as a mainstream archaeologist, you can kiss goodbye to your career. Any archaeologist who entertains the possibility of an advanced lost civilization around the world more than 12,000 years ago will have no future as an archaeologist. That right there will write him off for the rest of his career. That's so disturbing. It's so disturbing. If that's true, it's so mind-numbing. Because why would you ever believe that we've got it all figured out where every day they find some new stuff?

Did you see the discovery they found recently of a large tooth that's a cousin of human beings? Denisovan. Yeah, just really recently. It was in the last few days. Very, very recently. Well, this is the thing, you see. Our story is much more complex than we've been taught. And gradually, bit by bit,

the evidence is coming out of the woodwork. But the idea that we have all the data of history is just so crazy. It's just not true. And arrogant. It's absolutely foolish. Yeah. It's a very foolish idea.

And it shuts us down to the possibilities. I mean, the universe gifted us with these giant brains and this incredible imagination and intuitive faculties as well. We're not only rational creatures. We're intuitive creatures. faculties as well. We're not only rational creatures, we're intuitive creatures. And all of these faculties should be applied to understanding the mystery of who and what we are. And I think that's one of the mistakes of modern science is this just chopped out one bit, the kind of alert problem solving bit, the rational reason, the use of reason and logic, and it's chopped out all the rest. The capacity of humanity to dream, to learn information

in dream, to learn true knowledge in dream was revered in the ancient world and just ridiculed today. You want to insult somebody? Call him a dreamer, you know. Things have changed so much. Well, it seems like back then there was so much less information and now there's so much information to call someone

a dreamer means that you're thinking of nonsense when you should be trying to acquire all the information that we've already discovered, that we've already accumulated. Exactly. That's exactly what it's about. And again, it's ideology. It's saying that there is nothing of value in dreams. How do we know that? Ancient world felt that there was useful knowledge to be got from dreams, not all dreams.

It's in Homer, actually, that he speaks of the gate of ivory and the gate of horn. Some dreams come through the gate of ivory. They're just pleasant fictions or maybe unpleasant ones, nightmares. Ignore them. They're not important, but others are true tellings, and they come through the gate of horn. And this was a recognized factor in the ancient world. We've dismissed it today. It's regarded as pseudoscience. It's regarded as nonsense. Again, that label is constantly applied to anything archaeologists don't like. Pseudoscience. Right there with the label, they just dismiss everything.

They always call me a pseudoscientist, which means a false scientist. And I find that bizarre because I'm not a scientist at all. I've never claimed to be a scientist. I don't want to be a scientist. I'm a writer. I'm not a scientist at all. I've never claimed to be a scientist. I don't want to be a scientist. I'm a writer. I'm a journalist. I synthesize material across a broad range of disciplines. So how can I be a false scientist since I've never claimed to be one?

But the word is used as a bludgeon or a club to beat an enemy over the head and ensure that nobody listens to what that enemy says. Yeah, it's sort of a bulletproof pejorative. You throw that out there and you're immediately dismissed. Yeah. But it's got to be satisfying to you going from that original book, which I became absolutely fascinated by, Fingerprints of the Gods, to slowly but surely over time, more and more evidence being discovered in mainstream science and archaeology that affirms all these suspicions. Yeah. science and archaeology that affirms all these suspicions. And then attached to what Randall has been studying his whole life, it really, the whole thing just sort of unfolds in front of your eyes. There's a kind of perfect, perfect moment in human knowledge unfolding right now. We now

have the knowledge of this giant cataclysm that happened 12,800 years ago, which has just not been taken into account at all up to now. And at the same time, and it's almost eerie, archaeological sites are popping up all around the world that cannot be explained by the previous model of history. Now, with all of this information that you've shown so far, the layer that shows the massive burning of the forest the impact craters that we found the nuclear glass the micro diamonds all this evidence that the immediate shift of the climate the mass extinction of a huge percentage of the large mammals. Is the impact period, that period,

is that considered in mainstream science? Not yet. It's considered in mainstream science because it's mainstream scientists who've presented the evidence. All the data you've accumulated and corresponded. It all comes from mainstream science, published in the absolute leading scientific journals.

But you're stitching it together. What nobody has done yet, I think I'm probably the first person to do it, is to take that evidence and consider its implications for the stories we tell ourselves about the origins of civilization. Very important story. Where did civilization come from? What is it? And that information has not been taken into account at all by archaeologists yet. I hope they will do so in the future. They need to play a very fast game of catch-up to catch

up with the science on this and take it into account. But right now, it's not being taken into account at all. You will not find a single archaeological document which takes account of the cataclysm that happened between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago. A big part of the problem is specialization in science, I think. So you've got, you know, paleontologists looking at the extinction events. You've got, you know, marine geologists looking at sea level rise. You've got glaciologists looking at how the glaciers disappeared. And we're in a position now where we need to begin synthesizing

all of this. You know, what's interesting to me though, is that it, it really, it almost falls on the shoulders of, of the Mavericks, you know, the synthesizers. And that's kind of really right now, there's so much specialization in science that the next phase of it, I think is beginning to integrate it, to create a coherent model of our past. Because a lot of, like Graham was saying, a lot of the mainstream scientists have this information, right? If we look at this graph right here, and you see how this compares with the graphs we just saw of the climate changes and the ocean level rise, this is, as it as it says late place to see mortality graph and this is basically looking at radiocarbon dated uh fossilized remains of the extinct mammals and if you look carefully you'll see that within the range that we're talking about right in here

here's your 13 000 year spike right here this's exactly the same time period and exactly the same as the changing of the temperature, the rising of the sea levels, massive extinction event. Right. And there it is right there. Every one of these squares represents a fossilized remain. I think 360 or 70 specimens that have been dated. 60 or 70 specimens that have been dated. It seems insanely unlikely to me

that this didn't correspond with an impact on human civilization. Of course. It's very clear that it is. It seems insane that it's not mainstream and... If this is all fact and obviously it is, how is this not...

This is so glaring. First of all, it raises a horrible possibility for archaeology that they have been completely wrong about the origins of civilization. I mean, not just slightly wrong, but completely wrong because they didn't take account of this. That's a horrible possibility. And it's much better to just try and get rid of the data. I'm not saying that it's a conspiracy by archaeologists. I'm saying it's human nature. If you're invested in a system of ideas, so powerfully invested in it that your own personality is connected to it, you just can't accept it.

It's really hard to accept. Almost your generation has to die off before a new generation comes that will be prepared to. Just with old age, I'm not threatening an assault on the world of our children. I said ooh because it impacts. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I think that's the problem why it's not been taken. And Randall's right. The other problem is the intense specialization of our society. That's one of the strengths of our society. There's also one of the weaknesses of our society that everybody is really good at one particular thing. That's the only way it all works out, because no one could possibly get all this work done. And we're all interdependent upon one another, but there's

not enough comparing notes across the disciplines. And I guess that's where my skills, such as they are, come in. I've spent my whole life synthesizing data from many different fields, and that's what I'm doing here. It also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like part of the issue is there's no consequence to not considering this stuff. There's no consequence to just ignoring it. They ignore it, they teach what they've taught mainstream, and they still come out smelling like a rose and everything looks great.

Exactly, and they all keep their jobs. Yes. They don't annoy their colleagues. It's almost the opposite of that. Because to go here, they're actually, you know, they're threatening their position. You know, they're putting their position in danger. But I don't understand why they would be. Because to me it seems like you would want to say we have some exciting new data.

So this is now we have to reconsider what we already know. We already know about this part of the world, and we already know about the Pleistocene era. We already know about all these different eras. But now we have this new data to consider, and here all it is. They should be excited about it. They should be joyous that there's something here which really could change the whole picture.

But that's not the case. It's radically opposed. Well, it just makes your education look like shit. Yeah, I'm afraid it does. I mean, it's really unfortunate, but it really does. You see, this is an area that Randall and I happen to know a lot about. What I wonder is in other areas that I don't know about is this same phenomenon at work,

the kind of knowledge filter, which is just shutting us off. What discipline would that be? Are you just speculating? Social sciences, any area of science, medicine, how things are to be done with medicine, how tumors are to be handled and dealt with. We have a dogma right now

that it's chemotherapy and radiotherapy, and every other system is regarded as what? Pseudoscience, generally. But maybe that's a mistake. Maybe we should be considering the possibility of these alternative therapies. Maybe they're better than blasting somebody with highly radioactive material. Well, I certainly think there's some things that we don't know about the impact of nutrition and overall health and meditation and just the impact of stress and well-being and how it plays on health factors. And I think we're going to learn all that. I mean, I think there's probably more discussion and more focus on that than there is on stuff like this.

Sure, there is. Our personal health is important to all of us. This is kind of a part of our personal health, too. You bet it is. It's a part of our understanding of the very environment that we exist in. Where we came from, yeah, absolutely. Now, how long did you guys road trip together? It was about two weeks, wasn't it, Randall?

A little shy of two weeks. And what did it entail? Did you guys make a video of it or anything? There was a lot of video shot. Beautiful. And one of Randall's colleagues, Brad, who was with us, shot video along the way, and my wife, Santa, took photographs, and we've documented all

of this very, very, very, very thoroughly. But it was an amazing road trip for me. It was the first time, actually, I've driven a great distance across the continental United States. I've always been in this city or that city and picking up an airplane and going here and there. But to actually drive across this incredible, majestic land was an enormous experience for me. And it filled me with a sense of just how huge America is. I live in this tiny island, you know, Britain.

But this giant, these open, the open skies country that they call it in there. It was a great initiation into a beautiful part of North America and a mysterious part of North America. And it was great to do it with Randall because he's been walking the walk in this area for decades

and he knows that landscape like the back of his hands. Yeah, and for people that are listening to this podcast right now, and this is your first introduction to Randall and Graham, you've got to go pause right now and go back to the first one Graham was on, the first one Randall was on. Just do a binge. Just binge listen or binge watch.

What are we looking at here? Well, this is Graham trespassing. How dare you? I'm like, I'm watching in all directions. You're not supposed to be there? No. Well, since the first time I was there, this is, Graham actually referred to this erratic earlier. This is that 18,000-ton boulder sitting above Wenatchee.

So that was the boulder that was pushed by the water? No, it was carried aboard an iceberg. An iceberg. Enchained in ice. An iceberg. This massive rush of water had giant rocks embedded in the iceberg. And to float that, you need an iceberg

about the size of an oil tank. And this is sitting 400 feet above the modern-day Columbia. So we know that the water was at least this high. Well, actually, it had to have been higher than this because 90% of the iceberg is under the surface of the water. And how do we know that this rock just wasn't there? How do we know that it was carried by this? Well, because it's not part of the bedrock.

It's sitting on top of the land surface, like all of these. If we look here, we've got some other... Do we know where it came from? Do we know how far away it originated? Yeah, it's probably come from about 50 miles to 75 miles north of here. The type of basalt it is has been identified. I don't remember specifically, but when you travel over this land, you see these giant boulders just strewn about. There's a place called Boulder Park. It's a tourist attraction now. You can go see it.

Yeah. And you can see there, I mean, the size of that. And there's, let's see. Oh, my God. So they just stand out like out of nowhere. Yeah, and we know this had to have been transported aboard an iceberg for the simple reason that if it was carried within the glacier mass like a typical glacier erratic, you wouldn't have those sharp square corners like that. A glacier erratic gets ground off. Right. And oftentimes, and this thing was transported almost 200 miles from, its likely origin was Mount Robeson, and we didn't get to this one.

But this is evidence that the flooding was much more extensive than just the Missoula flooding. Because the Missoula flooding that we were looking at was on the west side of the North American continental divide. I should just jump in there and say that it isn't any longer controversial that there was gigantic flooding in the Pacific Northwest and indeed across the whole range just south of the ice cap. That is accepted now. But the very idea that there was flooding at all was hotly opposed for decades. There was a great American geologist called J. Harlan Bretz

who was the first to document the fact that there had been colossal flooding in that area. And he lived in the 1900s, the 1920s. And because he suggested that there had been a cataclysm, of course, he was exiled by his colleagues. Eventually, his data prevailed and he was awarded the Penrose Medal, the highest award of the geology in America in 1976 when he was like 96 years old. That must have sucked for him. And he said then, he said, all my enemies are dead,

so I have no one left to gloat over. That's what he said? Yes. Oh, my God. But it's so disturbing to me that it works like that. It works like that. They're demonized. But what happened, you see, was Harlan Bretz was convinced

from the beginning that he was dealing, and this is a very experienced field geologist, that he was dealing, and this is a very experienced field geologist, that he was dealing with a single humongous flood, which had risen and fallen within perhaps two weeks. That was his evidence on the ground. And he was attacked because people kept saying, well, where did the water come from? You know, what's the source of this water? And he said, that's not my problem. I am showing you the clear, unmistakable evidence of flooding on the ground. Flooding happened. Somebody else go work out where the water came from.

And this stuck the whole argument for the best part of 40 years until a compromise was reached. And that's the word that Randall used, Missoula. They said that this flooding was caused by outburst floods from a glacial lake that's referred to as Glacial Lake Missoula. And because the flooding is so extensive, it must have outburst 80 or 90 times to cause that flooding, which completely contradicts Harlan Bretz's view that it was a two-week flood, one single event. But the compromise was accepted that the cause of the flooding was Glacial Lake Missoula. That is now going to have to be reviewed because of the comet evidence. If Harlan Bretts, if J. Harlan Bretts had had the information we have today,

he would have known instantly what caused that single humongous flood. And that was the liquidizing of a huge area of the North American ice cap instantly and the floods that followed. It's so fascinating that the obsessions of a few people come together like this and you can kind of piece these things together on a podcast. Randall, what is this crazy image you're showing us here? Well, this is actually out of a 19th century text when catastrophism, before catastrophism had been completely exorcised from mainstream geology.

And this was Louis Figuer, I think was his name, who speculated that the ice sheets over northwestern Europe had catastrophically melted down. And he had an illustration in his geology text which perfectly captures how these large erratics are actually being transported aboard these icebergs. And you can see the scale of the thing. And this is the kind of, you see whole forests are about to be washed away here. And this image, the first time I saw it, I thought, well, here it is. This depicts the kind of field evidence that we've been looking at here. So that's why I've included this here, because it helps to visualize what we're talking about. We've got some, this was a place that graham and i visited here which really spectacularly

embodies this whole phenomenon this is known as as dry falls cataract and it's about five miles wide and i'm going to show you ground photographs and a couple of aerial photographs of it so you can kind of get the scale of the thing. And the great thing is anybody can go there. This is on the land. It's ours to look at. We can all go and see this. It's an amazing trip to see it. You could go there, Joe.

They would let you in there to see this. Where were you trespassing? Oh, on that particular shot. That huge 18,000-ton boulder is surrounded by notices which say, no trespassing. They weren't there when I was there a few years ago. Don't step on it. So I trespassed.

I mean, the thing is made of basalt, and my footstep is not going to do any harm. Yeah, I bet you nobody even noticed that Graham had been up there. So it's not like a private property issue. It's like they're just trying to keep people from— I think it is actually a private property issue. Probably is. Because I have noticed from the first time I went there, which was, gosh, I don't know, 98, I think, there was no houses on that hillside. Now the houses are moving up the hillside.

There's been development and so forth. There was houses pretty much right around it. Yeah, we're going to overrun it and there'll be no evidence. You guys got to accumulate your evidence while you can before condos go up there. That's also true. Now you'll notice that there's a series of these alcoves here, that, you know, these horseshoe-shaped. We're back on the image of Dry Falls.

Yeah, back on the image of Dry Falls, exactly. And at some point, somebody's going to be able to see these images, right? Yeah, well, people can go and Google them online, but they'll see them right now on YouTube if they watch the YouTube version of the show. If they see the YouTube, okay. So here's a typical Horseshoe Falls of Niagara, which is a modern cataract, receding cataract.

And this horseshoe shape is very typical of the way water will erode bedrock because water flows faster in the middle of the stream. Therefore, it erodes faster in the middle and not so much as you get towards the margins. And so it creates this classic horseshoe-shaped profile. And that's what we're seeing here at Dry Falls. Now, this is just one of the alcoves of about half a dozen of the alcoves that we saw in the map of it. In other words, this is a monstrously big waterfall.

Yes. Dry today. Just off to the left of the picture is where, actually, and there's a photograph in Graham's book taken from, let's go back, we skipped over it. There it is. This is the viewpoint. And this is Horseshoe Falls of Niagara superimposed on dry falls, so you can get a sense of the scale. Soagara falls is a tiny tiny little thing yeah by comparison with this ancient fossilized waterfall which dates back 12 800 years niagara falls is the result of 12 000 or more years of work of the river dry falls between upper and lower grand coulee in washington state is the result of two weeks of flooding what yeah and for people try to explain this for people that are listening, because it's probably 10 times bigger.

Plus. More than that. How many times bigger? It's two and a half times as high. And, well, figure this. The discharge over of the Niagara River, over the falls, is a couple hundred thousand cubic feet per second maximum. The discharge over Grand Coulee was somewhere between 300 and 400 million cubic feet per second, or in other words, somewhere between 10 and 20 times the combined flow of every river on Earth flowing all at once. And the height of this scarp face here, this cliff, is about 400 feet.

The water coming over was about 400 feet deep. So if you were here witnessing this at the peak of the flood, you wouldn't in fact even see a waterfall. What you would see is this massive 10 mile wide turgid river choked with icebergs and debris and whole forests. And that river is rather flowing at what, 60, 70 miles an hour? 60, 70 miles an hour. What you would have seen here was just a bump in this flood. And then only at the latter stages of it would it actually have been a waterfall. As the water source was dissipating and as the water was declining, you would have the final stage of it being a waterfall.

Then eventually the waterfall stopped. And what you have today is this fossilized feature of this massive. And this is only one of about a half a dozen comparable-sized cataracts. We didn't get to see potholes or Frenchman Coulee next time, perhaps. So many others. I'd urge anybody listening to this, if you can do so, get up to Washington State and go visit Upper and Lower Grand Coulee. It's a stunning landscape. It's a great trip to make. And you can see the evidence on the

ground. And, you know, people don't know about, you know, like here, this is Utah. And what you see here is once you begin to understand the cataract formation and you understand the morphology of a cataract, you look at something like this, and what you're looking at is cataracts, extinct cataracts out in Canyonlands, Utah. And they're massively scaled. But no geologists... See, here's the problem. Geologists haven't been focused on catastrophism.

What they've been doing, they work for the government, they work for the oil companies. They're more interested in what's down below, the natural gas, the oil and stuff. That's where the money is. There's another point I'd like to add to that, Randall, as to why geologists are not focused on catastrophes. Geology is a science, and science, in effect, defined itself as being

different from religious superstition. So the notion of the great flood that we find in the Bible became a very discredited notion in science. And by association with that, any suggestion of a great cataclysm in the past was seen as superstitious behavior to be shunned completely by the squeaky clean, shiny new sciences who must never take that into account. So any geologist who dares to propose a cataclysmic episode is up against that right away, that his colleagues don't want to go there because they're afraid that they're going to be accused of buying into Noah's flood or whatever.

That's so unfortunate. But it's true. And this is the problem. So there's catastrophism and uniformitarianism. And the prevailing dogma in geology is the uniformitarian dogma, which is basically to say, the way we see things in the world today, that's how it's always been. It's never been any change. So Randall, what is the mainstream understanding of those formations? what when they look at those the Utah ones for example gigantic Utah I have searched and searched and I find nothing they just don't explain it they don't explain go

oh look how pretty do you think a flooding went as far south as Utah not directly glacial I think what we're looking there it has to be torrential rain right which was which is another association of this impact. Picture this huge impact on the ice cap. An enormous amount of watery material is thrown up into the atmosphere, not only water but also mud. And you get this rain out, which comes down for a long period after that. comes down for a long period after that. And I'm not necessarily saying that all of that was stripped in one event, because the Pleistocene is basically two and a half million years. I think 2.6 million is the latest dating of it. And there's been probably a dozen or two dozen

ice ages that have come and gone. To me, the evidence I'm seeing suggests that the transition from glacial to interglacial and back again is not a smooth process. In fact, it's probably highly catastrophic. Not necessarily as catastrophic as the event we're talking about 12,800 years ago, but certainly catastrophic enough that were an event of equivalent magnitude to happen today, we could maybe not cause a mass extinction but we could certainly pull the plug on modern civilization um and so this this picture is interesting because what it does is it it shows that you know you travel over these this landscape explain what this picture is and where is okay you Okay, now this is in western Montana, and this is a place called Dry Creek.

And what this is is just a gravel pit. But what you see here is deposits caused by surging floodwaters moving up tributary valleys loaded with sediment. And one of the things that a stratographer or a or a sedimentologist looks at is, you notice how they're tilted. You see how the layers are tilted? Okay, that's an indication of which direction the water is moving. The tilting goes down in the direction that the water is flowing. So what we see here is massive, turbulent, sediment-laden floodwaters back flooding up a valley, surging, leaving deposits, and then flowing back out, followed by another wave, followed by another wave. For now, for 13,000 years, 12,000 years, this material has been laying there, and you see that there's forests growing over it. Okay. People traveling over this landscape don't see what's under their feet. has been laying there and you see that there's forests growing over it okay people traveling over this landscape don't see what's under their feet you see but once you get an outcrop like this

and you understand and you can read what you're seeing here then suddenly it becomes apparent that the that the very hills and landscape that we're that we live on that we've built our cities on, and our highways, and that we're playing out all these dramas, that right under our feet is the evidence of previous worlds. You have to understand that what you're looking at there is the debris of a former world that was pulverized by these floods, carried in and deposited, and now a new world has emerged out of that and on top of this wreckage. And in that former world existed, I believe, an advanced civilization that is memorized in myths and traditions all around the world,

that has been ridiculed by archaeologists, but it is insistent, and the evidence keeps on coming forward. Well, it all makes sense. It really does. It's all shocking and stunning and fantastic, but it all makes sense. I think it does make sense. And I think it's something, it's part of the human heritage.

It's something that we all have to get to grips with. Again, this is one of the things I find encouraging about developments in the world today is that more and more people do appear to be thinking for themselves. There was a time when we took the word of specialists, Dr. X or Professor Y said this, it had to be true. That was so actually when I wrote Fingerprints of the Gods in 1995. That was the first argument, was the argument from authority. The authorities say this cannot be so. Therefore, it is not so.

And a lot of people just bought that. What's changed, I think, in the last 20 years is that that subservience to authority has gone away. It hasn't gone away completely. But we don't trust authority anymore rightly and properly because we've been lied to by authority figures. And we know they lied to us, and we saw the evidence, whether it's politicians or big corporations or the big religions. There's an uprising against this and an assertion of individual will and of individual intellect to inquire into the past. And I think that that's why this information now is coming at a time where it's falling on fertile ground. There will still be a lot of resistance to it. We can expect that resistance to be fierce and to go on. But things are shifting

in the world, just as our picture of the past is shifting. So our picture of who we are and what we're meant to be doing here is shifting as well have you guys thought about coming together and doing a documentary I'd love to do a documentary rather you guys together it's a must do I mean it just seems like the book is I'm sure gonna be fantastic but there's gonna be people that are just not gonna read a book documentaries are so easy all you just do is open your stupid mouth lay down yeah you know turn on Netflix and BAM you, you can absorb it. It might happen.

People are lazy. It's highly visual material. So visual. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's so visual, and the two of you together, we need to crowdfund something. Can I make an appeal? It's the first time I've ever done this.

It's a kind of little pitch. It's a little pitch. Okay, I've never asked for this before. What I'm asking to those who value and appreciate my work and feel that I'm doing something useful in the world, please support my work by getting this book because that is the best way to put one finger up to the mainstream. Archaeology wants this book to go away.

They want it to be forgotten. It will never be reviewed in any mainstream newspaper. It will never be written about. There will be no articles about it and probably no television coverage either. The only thing that can make the difference is people voting with their feet. And I'm asking that now of people who value my work. People are huge, huge fans of your appearances here and huge, huge fans of your work. And if this is the latest and greatest, I'm sure people are going to go out and buy in droves. So Magicians of the Gods.

You can get it on Amazon. You can get it on your website. You can get it pretty much everywhere. Yeah, go to my website and all the links and the whole background on the book is there. I hugely appreciate, deeply appreciate the support that my readers have given me. I would be nothing without my readers. support that my readers have given me. I would be nothing without my readers. That's why every time I do an event, I sit there for two to three hours afterwards talking to people and signing books, because the readers are the most important people in my universe. And they're who give me

strength. Without my readers, I'm literally nothing. And I value and appreciate them. And I'm on a journey across America now. and I'm speaking in many, many different cities. And the whole program is up on my website on the Talks and Events page. We'll make sure we tweet that stuff and get that information out. And I'll get that information out for the entirety of the time you're here. Just let me know where you're going to be, and I'll let everybody know when you're going to be there. Since we're plugging, I'd like to plug. I've got this.

What is that? Well, it's about a four-and-a-half-hour presentation. Of course it is. Of graphics, video clips, animations. And it's all you? Yeah. And what is it called? Cosmic Patterns and Cycles of Catastrophe.

We can go to the Sacred Geometry International website. I think Cameron Wiltshire, who you know, in fact, who introduced us, I think he's doing a special on it now. Okay. Like 33% off or something. So what is the actual URL of the website? Well, it would be sacredgeometryinternational.com. There it is. Jamie's pulled it up right

there so cosmic patterns and cycles of catastrophe yes 33.33 percent off what is that all about you'll have to ask cameron about that it's some some hidden numerology in there somewhere apparently and you'll notice coupon code magicians ah you go, magicians of the gods. That must be a reference. I think it probably corresponds. So I really think that you guys have to do one of these things together as a documentary. I mean, I think it's just, I think someone out there, someone's listening to this, probably some kooks that we don't want doing this documentary, but there's got to be somebody out there that's legit.

We just need to find them and put it together. Yeah. I want to pay tribute to Randall's work. Randall is a really important figure in this field, and he's very modest, and he's been standing back, and he's not been out there enough. It's time that people understood the fantastic knowledge that this man has and the ground experience. You can't beat that.

Well, I randall in god it was early 2000s right i well when when was when you were at the punchline yeah in atlanta yeah which doesn't even exist anymore close to 10 years ago i think it was a it was quite a while ago and uh we had this conversation after my show and he's we're just sitting down he's talking to me about the holocene and all these different impacts. And I remember walking away. We talked for quite a while after the show. But I remember going, that might be the craziest fucking post-show conversation I've ever had.

Because usually after a comedy show, you have a conversation with people. Hey, where's a good place to eat? Do you like Atlanta? Normal stuff. And he's just flooding me with information i'm like who is this guy well i remember walking away from it going wow i had no idea that joe rogan really related to all this stuff you know oh i was fascinated i was surprised can i add something something there which is i'd like to say something about you joe

it's a phenomenon i travel all around the world and I give presentations in just countries everywhere. And everywhere I go, people come up to me and they said, Joe Rogan sent us to you. We know about your work because of Joe Rogan. And I see that what you're doing is exploring many, many controversial areas in your show. You're in a position of power, and your listeners, just as my readers are my strength, your listeners are your strength. They put you in a position of power, but you're a person who's using that power for something really good. There are so many people who are powerful in the world of the media

who just waste it away on trivia and nothing. You are bringing new information to people all around the world, and I can tell you because I meet them every time I give an event, you are enormously appreciated. Well, I appreciate them very much. And I appreciate you guys. And I appreciate this show because this whole thing came about without any planning. This show just sort of became itself. It's almost like I just happened to be there to germinate it or something. I just try to get out of my own way as much as possible and follow my curiosity. And the beautiful thing about people like you guys is without you, take away you and fingerprints of the gods, take away you. And what are we looking at? I mean, it's very rare when you have two human beings that without them an entire field of study would be barren of a great deal of its information.

I mean, you have John Anthony West and Robert Shock, and you were obviously a part of all that. Absolutely. And John Anthony West, who's absolutely fascinating. Fascinating, a guy who's ignored, but Magical Egypt is one of the greatest DVD series to this day that I've ever seen in my life. And if you've got the time and the attention span to sit down and watch all of them, it is amazing. Amazing. John Anthony West is one of my favorite people on the planet. He's incredible.

Absolutely brilliant researcher. John more than anybody else who opened my mind to the mysteries of ancient Egypt. Fantastic work. He's a world treasure. He is a world treasure. He's a great, great, great man. And I think that DVD series is just one petal, one unfolding of the great flower of information that you guys are presenting. And another name I'll drop in there, which is Robert Boval, the originator of the Orion Correlation Theory. He's done so much to bring

back attention to the importance of the skies in the ancient world and what it means for our understanding of our past. And again, his evidence also points back to this period of 12,800 years ago. And while we're at it, Robert Shock really stuck his neck out from Boston University. Really one of the first mainstream scholars that went out on a limb and said, we are absolutely looking at water erosion. Robert Shock is a key figure in this field. He's very courageous to be a mainstream academic, to be a professor of geology at Boston. It was John West who introduced Robert Shock to the notion that the Sphinx might be much older,

that the weathering on it didn't fit with the picture of history. And John took Robert Shock to Egypt, and Robert Shock went with the data, and he stuck his neck out, and he's taken a lot of criticisms and attacks for it, but he's a very, very important player in this field. Well, all of you guys are just massively, massively important, and this is such a unique and satisfying object of curiosity for me at least when I start thinking about these things it's almost like little things start firing off in my brain it's so it's so exciting I mean it's horrific to think about the poor people that lived back then that got hit by these massive impacts and the the the the aftermath of it all must have been insane. But to think about now in 2015, the slow unveiling of all this data and information. And as it all gets into focus and you try to get a clearer and clearer view of what could have possibly happened in the past.

I find it so incredibly enriching and fascinating. It's, to me, one of the most exciting aspects of the potential of archaeology, just to be able to discover like, oh, that's what happened. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. It's a kind of aha moment. Suddenly the pieces fall into place and we understand what we've forgotten. And again, it cements that statement that you made that resonated with me, that we are a civilization with amnesia. We got knocked on the head and we lost a lot.

We lost a lot. And there is that haunting sense of incompleteness within so many of us that comes from that lost memory, I feel. It's like any amnesiac has a sense of something missing. Whole species has that. I think what makes this really so potent is the fact that there are considerable implications for our own future. Oh, absolutely.

And I think that, you know, how Graham wraps up the book really is about our future, you know. And once now that we've integrated this information into our worldview, you know, what does it imply in terms of where we go from here? Because one of the things that I track, and if you could shut that, throw this up on the screen for just a second, I'm going to speed through something really quick here so that you can kind of get the impression. 1989. 1989.

Let me get, let me just. Giant asteroid makes close call by Earth. Well, Randall's fixing that. Let's also remind that we had a relatively close pass with a half-kilometer wide actually bit of a comet just over Halloween. And the interesting thing is that NASA only found that object on the 10th of October. Right. Okay, it missed us. It passed about the distance of the moon from the earth.

That's not that far. That's not that far. But the key thing is, the key thing is that they only found it a few days before it passed. Oh God. And how many other objects are out there? And half a kilometer wide. Half a kilometer wide. So the one that hit Tunguska was?

A hundred meters. Oh. To tiny. Jesus Christ, it's freaking me out. This is a minimum, a minimum of 150 to 200 times the volume of Tunguska.

And when you look at the universe and just look at our galaxy, the size of our galaxy, look at our solar system, the size of our solar system, that is literally like getting grazed by a bullet. It's like getting grazed. Absolutely. And's like getting great absolutely and it's so close that's a good analogy it's a really good analogy when you think about it you know you say well a half a kilometer compared to the earth

that's not big but like when you know you think think of a a slug from a from a 32 right if i threw it at you and hit you with it it wouldn't do much but if i accelerate it to a thousand feet per second it's going to cause extreme trauma right but now we're looking at these asteroids flying in comet debris and they're 10 times 20 times the speed of a rifle bullet when they hit our atmosphere like you know 50 60 70 000 miles per hour and the the kinetic punch of something like that is inconceivable it's like graham said i mean to talk about it you'd have to take our entire nuclear arsenal of of the peak of the cold war detonated all at once and even that would only be a fraction of the forces unleashed now watch this i'm going to

go through this real real quick here and you'll get the idea i think um that where we're at because astronomers are looking out into our cosmic environment and this is what they're seeing look at this like going back here most of us are listening, not watching. Nine objects have come close to the Earth since 1991. Right? Current... Read that. Asteroid estimates are too low. This was October of 2000.

Current predictions for the number of potentially dangerous asteroids have been underestimated by at least 20%, say astronomers. According to recent calculations, there are between 750 and 900 asteroids circling the Earth. That number has changed. That report's from October 2000. We're now looking at, the estimates are now that it's 100,000 potentially Earth-destroying objects

that are on Earth-crossing orbits. This is an estimate. The problem is NASA has only identified a tiny fraction of what's out there. And again, I'm not saying this because I want to spread gloom and doom. I'm saying this because we have the capacity

to do something about it. It takes goodwill on the part of the human race to stop wasting money on stupid, stupid pursuits, particularly warfare, and to apply that resource, those resources, to sweeping clean our cosmic environment. The technology already exists. It's going to cause, I mean, it's going to have to be, there's going to have to be a massive shift in our attention.

Like there has to almost be an event that takes place that makes people wake up. Right. We have World Asteroid Day right now. Some prominent figures are behind it, like Brian May. I think he was one of the guitarists with Queen, if I remember correctly. There is publicity around so-called World Asteroid Day, but nobody's taking it seriously. Well, we don't take anything seriously unless it smacks us. People don't quit cigarettes until they get cancer.

There's something about human beings that we don't consider the possible. We have this idea in our head that we're eternal and we're going to live forever and everything's going to be fine. I just need a new Lexus. You know what I mean? We have this wacky, I see this watch that I have out of my eye or this laptop that I want to buy. If something happened, if a massive collision hit China and wiped out several million people and then caused the entire earth to go into nuclear winter and crops died and we experienced global famine, then, something like that, then we would wake up and go, all right, Russia,

let's talk. Let's get together. I'm hoping that it doesn't take anything quite that extreme. Me too. If we had a repeat of Tunguska in 1908, I think that would be enough to do it. That would be nice. But would it be? Because there was this incident in Russia that was last year that was caught on all those dashboard cameras.

What's the wonderful thing about Russia is apparently there's so much insurance crime and so many collisions with each other that a lot of people over in Russia have dash cams. Okay, right. I was wondering why. So because of those dash cams, that's how we have all this footage of these meteors that blew up in the atmosphere and didn't even land. But we have some from inside schools where people were watching like this thing happen and go down. And that was nothing. Yeah, that was a fraction of the size of the Tunguska event yeah but nobody was killed you see if if that object had been a little bigger if it'd been if it's a little or a little denser its angle of approach had been a little steeper you might have been looking at 1500

deaths rather than just 1500 injuries I think that would have been looking at 1,500 deaths rather than just 1,500 injuries. I think that would have been a wake-up call, perhaps. Maybe not enough to reorient civilization, but I guarantee you a Tunguska event over a major inhabited area of the globe, wiping out a million people, I can't imagine that that wouldn't have some kind of effect on our attitude towards our vulnerability in the cosmos and make people think maybe there's something bigger we need to be paying attention to here rather than, you know, Kardashians. We're not invulnerable. This is the illusion created by modern technology. We need to make a war on asteroids like we have a war on terror. Well, you know, Congress just passed

a new... At least that would be a useful project to actually do something that could benefit and serve the human race instead of multiplying fear and hatred. Well, see, that's the thing. These asteroids are actually extraordinary sources of resources. Natural

resources. Platinum group metals and hydrocarbons and water and asteroids are actually extraordinary sources of resources, natural resources, platinum group metals and hydrocarbons and water and precious metals. All of these things that we're mining from the earth now exist in those asteroids that are threatening the planet. And we're not that far away from being able to develop the technologies and the industries to actually go and rendezvous with an asteroid. Of course, it's a matter of, like Graham was saying, I mean, this last Halloween asteroid, they didn't find it but a couple of weeks before it passed by the Earth. So we need a lot more capabilities of seeing what's out there. And we're developing that, but at a very slow pace.

So there are practical suggestions that come out of all of this. This isn't just about the past as Randall said, this is also about the future of the human race and what we do and how we how we live on this on this gorgeous planet that the universe gave us and how we pay back for being given that opportunity. And so the current ideas are to somehow or another nudge these asteroids out of the way? There's about 10 different technologies to do it. What you don't really want to do is to blow it up with a nuclear bomb, because then you get buckshot instead of a single bullet.

And buckshot can do a lot of harm as well, and it may even push it into a more catastrophic orbit. So you don't want to do that. But what you can do, for example, is to change the reflectivity of one side of the asteroid or comet fragment. You can alter that,

effectively paint it. And that affects the sun's radiation upon it. And that would be enough to shift it slightly out of its course. There are a lot of techniques and suggestions or nudges.

You put your finger on exactly the right word. This is another of the technologies. You just nudge these things. You just don't need to do much. And you put them into a safe place instead of a dangerous place. Such a bizarre idea that there's hundreds of thousands of killers out there. You just have to,

excuse me, just over there please. A little bit of this. And then also we have to look out for all of them the ones that are coming from down there the ones that are coming from up here three dimensional yeah space that's what we really have to think of because when we look at the sky oh i hope an asteroid's not coming our way well from where fucker you know this thing is crazy and is it coming from the direction of the sun so that we can't see it except for very special cameras that was the case with Tunguska.

In fact, if you read the eyewitness accounts, they describe how it looks like it was being disgorged from the sun or being expelled from the sun. It was like a second sun in the sky. And that was because that summertime torrid stream is coming from behind the sun. And so, yeah, you can't see them. Well, because of the gravity of the Sun, the mass of the Sun, doesn't that affect how we see things behind it anyway? Yeah, it should do. It warps our vision. So like something could be coming from behind the Sun and we literally would not even see it because of the mass and gravity of the Sun if it was in the right

area. Yeah. Tunguska was not seen really until it because of the mass and gravity of the sun if it was in the right area. Tunguska was not seen really until it came into the atmosphere. Came into the atmosphere. But that was obviously a long time ago, and there was not nearly as much observation of the skies as there are today, right? These are the steps that we need to take. We need to grow up as a species. We need to leave our childhood behind. It's interesting to speculate what would happen if we had impacts on the scale that happened 12,800 years ago.

And I'm pretty sure that it would mean, if it were allowed to happen, that it would mean the end of our civilization. This civilization would go down. This is a very intensely specialized civilization. I think the just-in-time principle is that we have two-day or three-day food supply in our cities. You interrupt that and you have a kind of walking dead scenario within a week. It's that bad. This civilization appears to be very strong, but in fact it's very fragile,

and it could easily fall apart. And so many of us in the Western technological world actually have no survival skills whatsoever. We don't know how to survive because we depend for our survival upon the complex network of society. Who would survive a cataclysm like that would be the hunter-gatherers. People like the hunter-gatherers of the Kalahari in southern

Africa or the hunter-gatherers of the Amazon basin. You know, the meek of the world, those who are not taken into account in the world at all today. They're the ones equipped both with the knowledge and the psychological resources to deal with a situation like that and to carry the human story forward. And I just want to make sure, if I can, if I can play some part in this, I just want to make sure that the descendants of those hunter-gatherers 10,000 years in the future are not remembering faintly and vaguely a great lost civilization, a magical civilization which had the ability to go to the moon, which had the ability to one person could speak to another person on the other side of the planet,

magical, magical powers, which was destroyed because of its own arrogance and cruelty. And that lost civilization, of course, would be us. Well, one of the things that's been disturbing me as I got older is the idea of print about books. It's sort of going away, and everything is becoming digital, and digital to the form that you can only read with an operating system and a computer and a CPU and all that jazz. Without all that, it's nothing.

You look at a hard drive, there's nothing there. It's just electrons. Take away the software, there's nothing there. Just electrons. Take away the software, and it'll never be read again. Yeah, and what evidence would there be a thousand years from now of us if something were to happen? There might be some. We'd know they were computer disks, but the descendants of that time would have no idea what they were. And even if they did, they'd have no way of accessing it. And a thousand years from now, they would deteriorate to nothing anyway.

To nothing. All the plastic would be gone. Everything would just be a complete mess. Well, that's why I look at megalithic stone architecture as being a textbook. Yeah. That's how you might preserve things. Exactly. And another way you might preserve things, if you developed a mythology around this whole scenario,

and then you projected it onto the night sky so that generations later they would tell these tales based upon the the mythological figures juxtaposed on the night sky and and there would be the story because it's there it's it's all the whole mythos western mythology has been juxtaposed onto the fixed stars. And so that's one way, perhaps, of preserving information. And the other way, I think, is massive stone architecture. So it's clearly not an accident that the Great Pyramid encodes the dimensions of our planet. Yes, correct.

It encloses them. You measure the base perimeter of the Great Pyramid and multiply it by 43,200. And you get the equatorial circumference of the Earth. Why that number, though? Well, that's the key thing. And I'll come to that in a second, if I may. You take the height of the Great Pyramid, multiply that by 43,200, and you get the polar radius of the Earth. Actually, Egyptologists know this, but they say it's a complete coincidence because what's the significance of the number 43,200? But actually, it's a highly significant number. It's a number that is found embedded in mythology all around the world. And it is a multiple of the

number 72. It's actually 600 times 72. And 72 is the heartbeat of the precessional cycle. One degree of change every 72 years. So what they've actually done is they've given us the dimensions of our planet on a scale defined by emotion of the planet itself. And that, in my view, is an incredibly clever way to pass information down to the future. That way they could be sure that any astronomically literate society could work this out. The information would be there. So in all those dark ages, when we had no knowledge that we even lived on a planet

or what its dimensions were, those dimensions were encoded into the enduring structure of the Great Pyramid, a monument, as the Arabs say, that time itself would fear. The Great Pyramids themselves, the Great Pyramid of Giza in particular, is so spectacular that it almost makes you go, well, man, there had

to be something going on. We must be missing part of this picture, because you're talking about something that would be... I've heard people say, we could reproduce it today. Of course we could. Of course we could. Can you make a stone that's the size of one of the stones in the Great Pyramid? Yes. Well, then we can make the pyramid.

But how long would it take? How hard would it be? And where would be the will? And you'd have to be perfect. In order to get it to line up at the top the way it sets right now, you can't be off by a fraction of an inch. Otherwise you have a corkscrew instead of a pyramid. That's the whole problem. No, it's an amazing device, a multifunctioncrew instead of a pyramid. That's the whole problem. No, it's an amazing device,

a multifunctional device in my view, encoding knowledge, but also working on human consciousness. I've had the privilege to be alone inside the Great Pyramid, not surrounded by hundreds of others. And as the silence descends, this sense of intelligence

seems to come out from the walls. Something is speaking to you there. And I think that partly what it was designed to do was to affect human consciousness. And in a weird way, it's still doing so. It's still beckoning people. Just with its majestic structure just being so magnificent and incredible that you just go, whoa. But also the sensory deprivation element, you know, that you're inside the so-called king's chamber, which had nothing to do with any king. This amazing granite geometrical room 300 feet above the ground in the heart of the Great Pyramid.

As that silence descends, you feel this monument begin to speak to you. It's almost like it's shy. Put 50 people in there and the dialogue goes away. Be in there alone. Listen to the silence and it starts to speak. Wow. Wow. That's amazing.

It's just, it's such a special thing that we have this, this area where you can see these ancient structures and, and causes your mind to wander and think about these things and these possibilities. And when you add that to all the information that you guys have accumulated over the course of your study and your research, it's just an amazing, amazing thing to consider. I should mention another site which we've not talked about today, which is Gunung Padang in Indonesia. And again, I have a couple of chapters on this in the new book. Gunung Padang is a man-made pyramid. And it's been found about three hours' drive west of Bandung on the island of Java.

And for a long time, it was thought to be a relatively young megalithic site. There is a megalithic site on top of what was thought to be a natural hill. But now an amazing Indonesian geologist called Danny Hillman Natawijaja has been over it with his team. They've done ground-penetrating radar and seismic tomography on the whole structure,

and they've also put drill cores down into it, and they have pulled up remnants of man-made material associated with datable organic material that goes back 20,000 years. It goes back right into the last ice age. This is a 20,000-year-old back right into the last ice age. This is a 20,000 year old pyramid that's sitting in Indonesia. And it's one of the most exciting breaking stories in archaeology. And typically, because the discovery work has been done by a geologist, Indonesian archaeologists are wanting the whole work stopped. So this is it right here?

That's not Gunung Padang. No. It says it is. But those are Gurung Padang. So, for example, third from the right. Third from the left, I mean. That one, yeah. That's the known megalithic site on top of what is now understood to be a completely man-made pyramid. So this is accepted only by geologists, not by archaeologists?

Yeah. The archaeologists say, oh, we know that site. It's 2,500 years old. There's nothing of interest there. We would like the resources that are being spent on this to be spent on our projects instead. And in fact, they've lobbied with the Indonesian government and the excavations have been temporarily halted.

I think that it will go ahead again. What is the evidence that shows, what's the geological evidence that shows that this is... First of all, the ground-penetrating radar, the picture of what is inside this, shows us that it is a man-made hill, not a natural hill. Secondly, that it contains three large chambers within it. One of them at least as large as the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid. Huge cavities, regular in shape, which have not yet been excavated.

And thirdly, that the date of this site puts us back to 20,000 years, right to the last glacial maximum, when Indonesia didn't look at all the way it looks today. Indonesia 20,000 years ago was part of a giant continent that geologists called Sunda, Sundaland, the Sunda Shelf. It wasn't the Malaysian Peninsula and the Thousand Islands of Indonesia. It was a massive landmass. And that landmass was submerged predominantly between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago.

This site sits in an area of high land which was never submerged. And it looks to me, again, I'm speculating because the excavation has been stopped, but it looks to me, as does Gobekli Tepe, like a time capsule, something that takes us back to that earlier period. And in fact, when we're looking for a lost civilization, I think we should be looking all over the world. Plato made it clear that Atlantis wasn't just the island.

It had projected its power all around the world. Indonesia made it clear that Atlantis wasn't just the island. It had projected its power all around the world. Indonesia is a very fruitful area for further investigation. And I did a huge research trip in Indonesia and I saw megaliths that are just unaccounted for. The archaeology has never been done. There's a giant megalithic culture in that island. And very cool, some cultures on Indonesia are still making megaliths today. They're still doing it. It continues this ancient tradition. So when we're looking at this, what are you guys seeing? I'm seeing a hill. I'm seeing a bunch of rocks. Yeah. That bunch of rocks is the known megalithic site, which has correctly been dated

to 2,500 years ago. But when you say megalithic site... This is a material called columnar basalt, which forms naturally, by the way, into regular patterns. The Giant's Causeway in Ireland is columnar basalt. Columnar basalt, when it forms naturally, forms in vertical formations. It's a very useful building material.

It can be broken up into blocks. And when you see them laid out horizontally like this, you know absolutely that human beings have been involved and that they have made this site. But what's really interesting is what's underneath what we're seeing there, what's been revealed by the ground penetrating radar and the drill cores. That is really fascinating because that has not been taken into account by archaeology at all. And that's where we need to do this work. If we're going to recover our lost past, Indonesia is one of the places we need to be doing it. So to someone like me that's looking at this, I'm just seeing a bunch of stones.

Yeah, that's what you're seeing. Yeah. So... 2,500 year old site. But what it appears to be the case that that site was put there because there was an ancient memory that this was a sacred site. The name Gunung Padang in the Indonesian language doesn't seem to mean very much. It means mountain field. But in the Sundanese language, which is the language that is spoken around Gunung Padang, what Gunung Padang means is mountain of enlightenment. Whoa. Suggestion that it's connected to an ancient system of knowledge.

It's one of many sites that are appearing around the world now that don't fit with the mainstream picture. So this sort of parallels some of the ideas about the old kingdom in Egypt and the ancient structures where the new structures are built on top of them. And as they dig deeper into the sand, they find different construction methods that represent an older time. Exactly. But this is that. So this is 20,000 years old underneath this. Yeah, that's right. Wow. And what can we, is there any images that we could look at? Or is there anything that we could see other than this?

Well, I have a lot in the book. What is that image above it? That's an artist's rendition? What it used to look like? That's an absolute artist's rendition, which I don't value. That almost takes the form of misinformation. We need to be looking at the real thing. Now there, that painting, you have your cursor just on it.

Just click on that. That is an artist's interpretation of what Gunung Padang would have looked like in its original form before it became overgrown. That is the mind blower then. If this 20,000 years ago, if this actually existed, this gigantic megalithic structure that was created by human beings, advanced civilization beyond a shadow of a doubt 20,000 years ago. That's a deal breaker. And in an area that was devastated by the global floods of 12,800 years ago and that became completely different from how it was before that. What was the area that had that gigantic super volcano detonation 70,000 years ago? That's another Indonesian story. And that is Indonesia. That is literally where

a massive amount of the population of the Earth of human beings was wiped out 70,000 years ago. It may have been that the human population went down to just 2,000 individuals. That's like a good comedy show for me, like a theater. Imagine that.

Everyone in my show has to repopulate the fucking earth sometimes our species hangs by a thread sometimes we hang by a thread that was one of those crazy that is crazy the idea that just the earth can have a hiccup and that's not even an asteroid that's the earth itself sp. That's the Earth itself. It spits up. Belching. Belches, destroys the environment to the point where it creates nuclear winter, kills all the crops. Most of the animals die. And 2,000 people scratch and claw their way to existence. Wow. And only 70,000 years ago.

So 50,000 years before this. So there's been a series of these. Yes. There have been a series of these. And we there have been a series of these, and we as a species have kind of danced in and out of them. And from time to time, they have radically changed our story. Our hubris in creating hard drives, hard drives and flash drives and computers and phones, and no one remembers anything. I maybe know four phone numbers, you know. Yeah, we don't use the power of memory anymore.

And we don't write anything down in anything that's going to survive any sort of a disaster. Yeah, absolutely. That's where the, you know, systems like Freemasonry come in. Because here you have a body of symbolism that's been handed down at least since the Middle Ages. And you have a lot of, you know, currently active Masons who, in order to become Master Masons, have to memorize a tremendous amount of information. Most of them don't have a clue as to what it means, though. Even though they're told right into ritual. If you want to understand this, you have to understand astronomy, first of all. You have to understand geometry and a number of other things, but a

tremendous amount of memory work is involved. And this is the ancient system. The oral traditions involved memory on a massive scale, being able to recite verbatim things that might take you hours to recite. And like you guys have just discussed, we're losing that ability. And this is, you know, to me, it's regrettable that Freemasonry has gotten such a bad rep

with all of these silly conspiratorial things in the age of the internet. I can't tell you how many times on Facebook or the internet somebody, and they express it as an accusation, Graham Hancock is a Freemason. Well, first off, I'm not a Freemason. I've never been a Freemason

and I never will be a Freemason because I'm not a joiner. I don't join clubs. My job is to write books and if I join a particular club, that's going to compromise my ability to do that. I have given lectures in Masonic lodges. I've been invited to give lectures there. And I'm very interested to talk to Masons. But, you know, I'm not a Mason myself. And it is strange that there is this idea that Freemasonry is connected to some kind of global conspiracy. I think it's much more complicated and much more interesting than that. Well, it's an ancient, like as you said, an ancient way of sort of storing and passing down knowledge and ideas. I mean, I'm sure there's a bunch of wacky people that are involved in it too. Most of them are in for the beer, frankly.

The beer? Yeah. But Freemasonry is largely a male drinking club. Maybe I'm in then. Maybe I need in then. Maybe I need to find these people. Actually, maybe that's in the UK. In the US, there's no drinking in the lodges.

Not in the lodges. Not in the lodge itself, but afterwards. Okay, I'm out. There's a lot of alcohol goes down. I was in and now I'm out. Well, yeah, drinking does mess with your memory, though, so I see the point. There is a tremendous body of symbolism in there, which I think is critical to understanding a lot of these ancient mysteries. It has ancient origins. Well, it's one of the things that's so confusing about our money, right?

And so conspiratorially constantly debated about the origins of the symbolism on our money. You know, the pyramid with the eyeball on top of it, and there's so many theories as to what this means and that means. And, oh, look at the way they structured Washington, D.C., and where the Pentagon is and where all these different buildings are. This is all Mason stuff, and they want to take over the world. And I don't know. But it's fascinating.

Who knows, really? I think what's important about it is that it's a system of ideas that definitely has very ancient origins yeah which we're seeing a modern manifestation of it now but it tracks back a long way into the past and this shows that that ideas can be passed down below the radar and can survive and can continue well the the eyeball on top of the pyramid man i would love to go back to the dude who created the dollar bill and go, what are you doing here? Yeah, what the fuck is that? How come you just don't say one dollar and have the dude's face and we're good, right?

Why do you have to have a pyramid with an eyeball? What does that mean? I wonder what it meant to them. What is it supposed to symbolize? Well, I think it means the same thing that it meant to the ancient Egyptians. We find the eye of Horus. Well, I think it means the same thing that it meant to the ancient Egyptians. We find the eye of Horus or, you know.

It's very Egyptian. Doesn't the eye of Horus represent the pineal gland? That's a good argument. It actually looks like the pineal gland. From a side profile, it looks exactly like it. It actually looks like it. And we know that DMT was available in ancient Egypt. The ancient Egyptian tree of life is Acacia nilotica, which is rich in DMT in its bark.

Well, that's also the tree that they're considering, that modern Jerusalem scholars have attached to Moses and the burning bush. Exactly. The burning bush being the source of divinity, the source of God, of divine knowledge, God being a burning bush, and that bush being the acacia tree. The acacia tree being rich in DMT. I mean, it only makes sense if you try to break it down and translate it. If anybody who's done DMT knows what a profound and life-changing experience it can be and how there is this feeling when you do it that you are connecting to some sort of divine entity.

In that, we have to look at this image. Okay, sure. What do you got? Jamie put it up there. Well, it's a typical, you find this in all kinds of Masonic symbolism. That's spooky. It's a dude giving a chick a haircut. He's got wings.

You see, what you have here is a juxtaposition of different symbols, and they all have an interpretation, right? You see the old man, Father Time, but he holds the sickle. Father Time also has wings. How do you get wings? Wings. Well... Time flies?

What? Time flies? Time flies, yeah. How dare you? You notice the hourglass. You notice the hourglass, right? Okay, the hourglass by the sickle, I see. Okay, and the sickle is a symbol for the comet.

I'm going to go ahead and spill some. Yes, and I can show you how that works. You know, the word comet comes from the Latin cometa, or cometa, which means what? Long hair, right? You've got the hair, Randall. Long hair. Long-haired star. Randall actually looks a bit like a comet.

Randall. Long hair. Long-haired star. Randall actually looks a bit like a comet. So as you're looking at the star in the sky and you see the tail, they think of that as the hair of the comet? Yes, exactly. So what you have there is the long hair. Right there, that's a signal. Right there, that's a reference.

And I can show you a couple of other things. Father Time is going bald. What's all that about? Yeah. While he's making up for it with his whiskers. But you'll notice what she holds in her right hand, the sprig of acacia. Mmm, yeah. And so in the Masonic symbolism, acacia represents resurrection, represents restoration.

In the Masonic allegoryory you have the death of the master builder and the raising of the master builder and the symbolism for this whether it ultimately I think goes back to the death and resurrection of Osiris and the death and resurrection of all of these God figures in history which could be dying and resurrecting gods the dying and resurrecting gods which could be taken as a metaphor really for the god standing in for the human species for human civilization and she's she's actually weeping she's holding in her left hand a a cyborium which was a symbol from alchemy and in the masonic sense it's in that container that she's holding that the alchemy takes place

which you might speculate is maybe the extraction of the dmt from the occasions that's what i was going to say it looks almost like one of those incense holders you know you put the you get an incense cone you put it in you put the lid on that and the incense comes through that right and she's looking at a book and she's looking at a book right and then the book is sitting on a broken column. The broken column, actually what that represents is very well depicted in this next image here, which was basically the destruction of the lost civilization. And that's what she's weeping over, see? And she's holding the acacia because that's the symbol of resurrection.

How civilization is then renewed, phoenix-like, out of the ashes of the previous one. Out of drugs. Yeah. Maybe a cyst. Maybe with some assistance there. A little cyst will help. Yeah. So you see there, and then when you go back to this, see, it's all there.

And once you begin to understand the symbolism of this, you can begin to read it just like a book or a manuscript almost, you see. And there we see a 19th century depiction of, you know, the destruction of civilization by a comet. Yes. Wow. Yes. Absolutely fascinating.

Yeah, it's interesting stuff. Boy, there's a lot of work in that. You know, is this a universal description, like the way or interpretation of what you're saying? Does everyone agree on this? No. No, in fact, basically most of them will look at it and really not really understand. They go, oh, that's pretty. But in many different cultures, a comet is the long-haired star.

And sometimes it's the cosmic serpent. Sometimes it's a serpent or a snake. Sometimes it's a serpent. Yeah. It looks like an old dude that's creeping on a young girl who's trying to read. Like, you know, she's trying to read. He's trying to give her a back massage. He's trying to be, he's kind of being creepy.

That's what it looks like. That's kind of what it looks like, dude. Well, here we have, this is a 19th century Masonic carpet. Now, you'll notice several things on here. What do you see up on the right? A comet. A comet, yes. And immediately to the left of the comet, you have a lunar crescent, and then you have the seven stars.

And what does the seven stars usually depict? The Pleiades. The Pleiades, yeah, which are part of the Taurus constellation. Exactly. And if you superimpose the radiant of the Taurid meteor shower, it almost bullseyes right on the Pleiades. Right on the Pleiades. And you find the Pleiades playing an important part in

not only the Masonic ritual, but in many traditions from the ancient world. Many, many traditions. They're even clearly depicted in the Hall of Bulls in Lascaux in France 17,000 years ago, a depiction of the constellation of Taurus with the Pleiades clearly marked on the shoulder of the bull. So anybody who

argues that there was no ancient knowledge of the zodiacal constellations, go to Lascaux and you'll realize there was. Wow. And you'll notice down here, there's the ark, which of course is symbolizing the Great Flood. And you've got a lot of things going on here. You've got the coffin with the acacia growing out of it, which again is symbolizing this resurrection after the death.

So that one plant plays an important role over and over and over. It plays a very important role. Yes. It just, I mean, it can't be coincidental that that's a plant. The role of DMT in human culture has been radically underestimated and misunderstood by our scholars. Is there any depictions in the ancient world of utilization of DMT, of smoking it? There's many depictions of an ancient Egyptian figure holding some kind of pipe. And now that we know that Acacia nilotica is a DMT-rich tree and that ancient Egyptians certainly had the chemical knowledge

to extract the DMT from that bark, the very word chemistry actually comes from the name of ancient Egypt, which was kemit, the black land. That's where we get the word chemistry from. We can be pretty sure what they were smoking. There is a particular scene, by the way, where we see another visionary agent, the Datura plant. Rays in the form of Datura flowers are descending into the brow,

into the third eye of the initiate in that image. The imagery is all there. You just have to dig it out and look for it. In fact, look for it with eyes that are willing to see. That's the crucial thing. I've never seen the Egyptian hieroglyphs of them holding a pipe. Oh, yeah. There's many. See if you can find any, Jamie. Do you see any? Wow.

So what are we looking at here, Randall? Oh, just another version of these old Masonic carpets. But the thing that you'd want to look at here. The beehive thing in the lower left-hand corner there? Yeah. That seems to be over and over again. Over and over again, yeah. Why a beehive? Is it a beehive?

It's a beehive, yeah. It is. So is it supposed to represent beekeeping and is it a form of agriculture? I'll fill you in on that someday. Bees were a symbol of royalty in ancient Egypt. You find them all over the Temple of khanak for example in the masonic context it has a very interesting connotation which would be probably beyond what we could get it's another

show it's another whole other show on bees does it does it i mean what when i mean when you look at what's one of the main concerns that we have today is that our cell phone signals and a lot of the pesticides that we're using are killing off bees. The cell phone signals are apparently like really confusing bees and messing them up and the Wi-Fi and all the waves, radio waves and different things in the atmosphere interfere with their communication. But then on top of that, the pesticides we're putting on crops and all these things. And then there's diseases that bees are getting. We have a serious problem with the honeybee population. I know. Absolutely.

And to have that as a big part of their culture, to have bees as a big part of their culture. Says something, yeah. Well, what you're superficially told in the Masonic ritual is that bees are a symbol of industry. But when you begin to look into it, the beehive itself is interesting architecturally. Right. Because what it does, it has the maximum volume to weight ratio virtually of any structure. But there's other considerations there as well, which, again, is another show. But if you look carefully, right up in here, you'll notice there's a twin comet, twin stars.

You see the tails? And you'll notice that you know that comets, their tails are always pointing away from the sun. They're not like trails, like the wake of a boat. They're pointing away from the sun, you see. And if you look at this, you see you've got the sun right here and you've got these moving away. The heart is a symbol for the earth. The sword is another symbol for the comet. So all of this mystery surrounds us and all of it takes us back to a time that we've forgotten. And we need

to know about that time. We need to recover our memory. The human species is in a kind of broken state right now, psychologically. You can see it in the world. There's this miasma of hatred and fear and suspicion that are just enveloping the whole world. And we are being divided artificially from one another when truly we are all brothers and sisters. And we need to recover that knowledge if we're to move forward to the future. And on that note, I also want to thank you for another thing, Joe, which is for smoking me up last September. Reintroducing marijuana into your life? I had three years of abstinence from marijuana, and that abstinence ended when we sat down

for our last chat, September 2014. Well, you seem so healthy. I'm like, I don't think pot's the problem. No, it's not the problem. What's happened is I've completely changed my relationship to that beautiful and magical herb. It's not a dependent relationship anymore anymore it's not an obsessional relationship if i have it i enjoy it if i don't have it i enjoy my life anyway that's beautiful yeah i have a

friend who's a drug counselor and uh last night he was telling me a story he's also a comedian and last night he was telling me a story court court mcgallan great guy and he was telling me a story about this kid that is kid that he's trying to help. He said, I had never met a marijuana addict before. And he met this kid, and this kid was smoking just massive, massive amounts of marijuana. He was trying to help him in this clinic. And he realized along the way, it has nothing to do with the marijuana. He's got some crazy psychological issue that's going on.

And the marijuana just happens to be the thing he's using to try to fill up. To medicate. It's not that he has this physical addiction that's impossible to. There is no physical addiction. If the marijuana wasn't there, he'd find something else. Yes, that's what it is. And then when he dug deep into it, this poor kid has just a devastating childhood. And there's all sorts of issues psychologically.

Always the case with addiction. Yes. It's the pain in the individual that's the source of it, not the substance. Well, I think we can all relate to a certain amount of madness. And I know I certainly can because I think we're all capable of going down spirals and paths. And then the concept of hitting rock bottom. Sometimes you have to hit something where you can't continue your momentum and you must

regroup and in that regrouping you reassess or reevaluate and it's one of the reasons why I'm so addicted to sensory deprivation tanks because that's my regrouping it's an amazing place to regroup and thank you for introducing me to that as well. I mean, they've done some amazing work in making sure these things are up to date and the most modern technology as far as filtration systems and insulation.

And now they're magical. Absolutely. You went to Crash, right? I went to Crash. And I had a fantastic, fantastic experience there. I love that guy. I have to say I'm really thinking about putting one of those in my house. Do it.

Everybody should. I mean, God, man. And as you say, with some edibles, that's the way to enjoy the experience to the maximum, to get the maximum benefit out of the experience. It's intensely, intensely psychedelic with edibles. Exactly. I'm really encouraged by what's happening in America,

that we are seeing the legalization of cannabis, that the American people, state by state, are just putting their finger up to the federal authority and saying, we are adults. We have a right to decide what we do with our own bodies and our own consciousness. And there is that air of freedom now in Washington State, in Oregon, up there in Alaska, in Colorado. And so this is part of my book tour that I'm really looking forward to when I go present an event in Seattle, which I'll do in early December,

and in Portland, Oregon, and in Denver, and in Boulder. I'm in Denver Saturday night. I couldn't be more excited to get there. I'm so pumped. I can't wait to get there. It's a great place. It's a point of freedom, and it's also a point of prosperity. Yes. Denver has exceeded what they had in terms of their expectations for how much money they were going to make out of this in terms of tax revenue.

It's gone through the roof. This is the first time ever they make more money from taxes and marijuana than alcohol, which is fucking crazy. If you look around Colorado, you see how many bars there are, how many liquor stores, how many restaurants are serving booze. They make more money in taxes from marijuana than they do from all of that. Let's face it. Marijuana is a far superior substance to alcohol. Far superior. Alcohol is a horrible poison.

But they're still selling booze. It's not hurting the booze business. It's not hurting the booze business, yeah. Violent crime is down. Drunk driving is to the lowest level it's been in decades. Amazing. I mean, the whole thing is incredible. It's a very positive story.

Real estate's gone up. Everything's incredible. And what Colorado is proving to the world is that the emperor of the war on drugs wears no clothes. Absolutely. The war on drugs is bullshit. It is. From beginning to end.

And it's a grotesque abuse of the right of adults to make decisions about their own bodies and their own consciousness. So right on with Colorado and the American people who are making this happen. Only in America could this breakthrough take place. It's true that America as a state entity has been a dark force behind the war on drugs, but the American people state by state are unraveling that horror and replacing it with something new. This could never happen in Britain. I mean, we have counties in Britain like Yorkshire or Northumberland. I can't envision a situation ever where Yorkshire would make

marijuana legal when London says no. But in America, you can do it. And this is going to change the world. It's not because of marijuana itself. That's not the point. It's not about getting high. It's about respecting the right of adults to make decisions about their own bodies, their own health, and their own consciousness. That is a fundamental human right. And we're beginning to realize that that's exactly what's been taken away from us by the war on drugs. I think it's also about making decisions based on data. And I think in a way that parallels what you guys are up to. Because I think people are understanding now that we've been sold a bill of goods by these so-called experts about marijuana.

Lies. They've sold us so many lies. Nonsense. And not only that, the politicians have hired experts to review the data and then buried it when it didn't meet their expectations. Exactly. Well, I have to confess that all of this with me started back in the old days when I was camping in these canyon lands in the western states and altering my consciousness and looking at the landscape and going, something is going on here. There's a story here that is wanting to come out. And, you know, you can I think that you have the we have the potential literally to almost time travel with some of these substances and peer into the past and see it in ways that we would have never seen otherwise.

And then not literally, but like get a sense in your mind, a new perspective, a fresh view. You were talking about it the last time you were here that you were on acid, right? Is that what it was? Acid and peyote mostly between. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. and peyote mostly between a little bit of that yeah but yeah yeah spending you know a lot of time out you know hiking and camping you know from from minnesota to the pacific ocean and all those northwestern states you know i spent months out there you know just hanging in the landscape you know living in in in tents up on mountaintops and and about what was I seeing, you know.

And that's really where it started for me. And I think that combining, combining, you know, this immersion into the landscape, you're talking about the sensory deprivation, which is a way to powerfully go in. At the same time, you can have the counterpart of that, which is powerfully going out and seeing the night sky in this altered state, seeing the landscapes around you and realizing that a hill isn't just a hill. There's a story there. There's some process that we have to come to reckon with in order to understand this planet we're living on. I think there's an interesting point here, which is that part of the technological world is to regard nature as matter as dead,

you know, that there's just this dead. We're the only consciousness on the planet in the universe. And they refuse to consider the possibility that nature may be highly conscious and highly intelligent, that there may be intelligence in nature. And it seems to me what the psychedelics are, are nature's way of speaking to us. When we've closed our minds and shut ourselves down, when we've taken the soul out of the universe and just turned it into a huge machine, the psychedelics are coming back and saying,

hang on, you monkeys don't know everything. Listen to us. We've got something to teach. And with that, we just ran through three hours. Yeah. That's it. How crazy is that? Those three hours.

It seems like 20 minutes. It was probably more than three hours, right? We over time? We're over. Listen, thank you so much. Graham Hancock, Magicians of the Gods. You can get it right now on Amazon. What is your website again?

GrahamHancock.com GrahamHancock.com Sacred Geometry International. Sacred Geometry INT, I believe, is your Twitter handle. Is that what it is? I think that's right. I'll check right now, real quick. Yes, Sacred Geometry, Sacred Geo, Sacred Geo INT.

Okay. Randall, thank you so much. Mine has got an annoying double underscore between the Graham and the Hancock. Well, you can find it, folks, if you go to my Twitter page. It'll be on my Twitter page. You can find both of their Twitter handles on the post we made about this. Let's do this again. Can we do this again?

Absolutely. I'm up for it. Let's do it again in a couple months. Fantastic. All right, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much. See you soon. Joe, I would like to get you out.