The Joe Rogan Experience - #737 - Lance Armstrong

Episode Date: December 15, 2015

Lance Armstrong is an American former professional road racing cyclist and 7-time winner of the Tour de France.

Yeah. And we're live, ladies and gentlemen, Lance Armstrong. How are you, buddy? Good, man. Thanks. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, for real. And, you know, you were just telling me before this, we were talking about social media. And social media, the greatest part about social media is you get in contact with everybody. The worst part about social media is that you get in contact with everybody. And it's this tiny percentage of people that won't let it rest like i was looking at something that you posted and uh it was something about some like you had a great time doing some race and like one of the first tweets one of the first comments was uh yeah as good a time as running away from drug tests yeah

or yeah i mean that's right you're you're going to have, I mean, what did we, I mean, I posted the other day we were putting our Christmas tree up. My family, you know, all the kids there and Anna and, you know, the lights and the ornaments. And it's at the fucking Christmas tree. And, you know, of course, most people love it. They think it's a cute picture. But then there's always the one, you know oh is the tree juiced or or something i mean there's just always which i get i mean that's just part of it yeah but sometimes you're like come is that the best we got like yeah i mean maybe that is maybe i deserve i don't know but it's like give it a rest sometimes well you

definitely deserve some of it right yeah for sure there for sure. There's no way around that. Of course. But it's also, I think one of the things about this whole scandal, the whole thing, it illuminated the real issue. And the real issue is the entire, and this is what we're talking about. Bill Bird did that thing on Conan where he was saying, the fucking whole sport is like this. It's not, there was, out of all the people that won the Tour de France and all the years that you did it. If you go back to people that either weren't implicated or didn't test positive, like what is like 18th place or something fucking crazy like that? You know, that's probably generous.

Yeah, right. It would be. It would be hard and hard to know that. Look, Joe, these are all easy for me to sit here and say and talk about. And people would say, well, of course he says that. Of course he thinks that. Well, it's all out on the table now. I mean, you really don't have anything to gain.

But is it? It is. No. Isn't it? It is. No. Isn't it? It's, well, I guess it is, but, you know, people don't want to talk about that. I mean, people want to talk about my issue, and that's, I guess, also understandable. But, like, it was a fucked up time. And you had this, you were at this crossroads of a very hard sport, a very hard event. Some would say one of the hardest sporting events in the world, three weeks, 2,500 miles, conditions, terrain, et cetera, et cetera.

So that meets really the perfect drug. I mean, you have a drug that's incredibly beneficial and at the time, totally undetectable. And and everybody dove in and so um nobody's nobody's nobody wanted to be in that position it's not like any of us growing up as kids thought dude i'm gonna i'm gonna go to europe and get you know all doped up and try to win bike race no nobody wanted to be there like we all went with pure intentions we got there and we're and i'm talking about the this crop of americans that went to europe and this shit was messy and we're like whoa like okay do we go home or do we stay and fight and uh literally almost everybody stayed and fought and then they fought you know we we fought the way that that the fight being fought. And, you know, and that all meets with where we are today. And

the people who were there, I think, can speak to it. Me, my teammates, my peers, my rivals, the competition. And we have a unique perspective on it because we were in the war. have a unique perspective on it because we were we were in the war but the person on main street right the corner of main and first wasn't there and they don't understand it and so they can't really speak to it but that doesn't change the fact that they're disappointed they're they're really disappointed they're disappointed in me they're disappointed in the sport uh they might hate me they might hate the sport sport. They were most likely defenders of mine. And so they're pissed off. And I you know, it's taken me a long time to really understand that. But I'll spend the rest of my life trying to trying to work that one out with with that person. And I don't you know, they're out there. There are millions of them. So. you know, they're out there, there are millions of them. So, um, well, they have a legitimate point, but there's also, there's people out there that want you to be wrong and want you,

they want to find someone who's done something bad and never let it go. And I think there's, there's definitely some of that going on. And there's also people that they don't have a lot of sympathy for people who've been extremely successful and have made mistakes. Yeah. Like it gives them the green light to just decide to just continually attack you. But what I tried to do when this whole thing was going down is I tried to put myself in your position. Like you're this world-class biker. It's 1994.

And that's right around when you started uzpo 95 95 so around this time when you realized that was 20 years ago 20 years ago right it's kind of crazy right crazy when you realize that this that pretty much all the best guys are doing this now what is that feeling like when you're like okay i've got to cross over into this deceptive territory. Now all of a sudden I have to lie about this, I have to hide this, and I have to be a part of this sort of underground thing, this underground aspect that's a part of this great sport.

Right. Well, we held off as long as, you know, I mean, you know, EPO came along in the early 90s. We sort of got to Europe in 92, 93. And then by that point, by 94, it's, you know, full on. And we're thinking, okay, this isn't good. But surely they're going to have a test for this, for EPO. And we waited, we waited, and it just never came.

And then we get to 95, there's tremendous pressure on the team, within the team. We're losing the sponsor. Will the sponsor renew? The team wants results, and we're going, right we're we're really fucked here and so we all collectively made the decision in spring of 95 that all right we have to go play ball the first time you shot that stuff what was that like now it's not it's it's it's not like uh i knew you were gonna ask these questions it's it's not like. It's not that type of drug. No, I don't mean like cocaine.

I didn't mean it that way. I meant, was there a feeling like, ah, fuck, we've crossed into this land of cheating? It was so long ago. That was 21 years ago, or 20 years ago. It's a little tough to remember exactly. And also, too, it wasn't as if there were other things we did before that.

I mean, EPO is this hugely powerful drug, but there was, you know, we sort of call them gateway drugs. I mean, if EPO is, you know, is the, you know, meth of, of performance enhancing drugs. I mean, there's, there's marijuana too. There's, there's a lighter sort of entry level stuff that. Like what was the entry? What was the first stuff? Well, cortisone is, is there. And that's just to relieve pain. Yeah. Or just, uh, yeah, I mean it, it is, but it also works for, for racing bikes, but.

How does it work for racing bikes? Um, well, it's such a strong anti-inflammatory that with that, inevitably you feel better. Whether it's physically you feel better, even just a euphoria that comes with that. And who knows what... Percent of it's... But at the same time, you have a drug that...

I love it when in cycling, if you took cortisone, you would be banned. However, you know, you watch, you know, the NFL and somebody gets banged up in the first half. They go in at halftime. They come out. You know, the announcer says, they went in. They got a cortisone injection. They're going to play the second half. They rush for 100 yards, they win the game, they're hero. It's like, wait a second.

So it is what it is. It is weird. It's weird. We've talked about that a bunch of times with me and my friends. You go to GNC or, you know, like the UFC has this company, Muscle Farm, which sells a bunch of supplements and things along those lines. But yet they ban performance enhancing drugs. Like, what do these supplements do? Well, they enhance you in some way. But it's like a certain level will allow a certain level of improvement, certain level of aid and recovery. But anything past that is cheating.

Well, it's all performance-enhancing. A nap is performance-enhancing. Sure, vitamins. It's all – so we know that. Right. But there also, too, has to be – and I don't want to be critical of whether it's the UFC's efforts to combat doping or USADA or water or anybody or any major sport. You have to draw the line

somewhere. Right. And that's just, and I get asked that all the time because people get frustrated with the issue and they kind of throw their hands up and say, well, look, we should just, it should just all be legal. And, you know, they said that to me and they're thinking I'm going to go, yeah, you're right. But you can't, that's not the answer either. There has to be a structure in place.

There has to be a line. That line might seem weird or fuzzy to people sometimes, but shit, you have to have something. And so, dude, it's tricky. I mean, anytime you mix athletes that are super motivated with money, with pressure that comes with that, temptation that comes with that. You know, people are for the rest of, I mean, come on, I mean, the original Olympic Games,

there was going on. So you have to think that it's going to happen forever. The substances will change over time, but just unfortunately, that's part of the game. So the original riders, like way back in the early days of the Tour de France, before they had drugs, they were using alcohol. You know, there's a lot of stories about whether it's alcohol, cocaine, crazy substances. But at the same time, you had guys, the Tour de France is 100 years old, right? So doping is cheating.

We know that. But there's other ways. I mean, guys would hang on to cars. Guys would get in trains. Yeah. There were guys, they would take a cork out of a wine bottle and they would put, this is fucking crazy. They would have fishing string in the cork, right? So wired up and they would have it, you know, they'd have a car up the road.

And they'd put it in their teat. Oh, my God. And it would be, you know, just a subtle pull. I mean, they, you know, any way to get ahead. I mean, this is, you know, the sport is just that it's a brutal sport. And you're not getting your face pounded in like UFC. But you certainly feel like you're getting your face pounded in like UFC, but you certainly feel like you're getting your face pounded. Well, psychologically, it's almost more devastating

because it's so grinding. When you're talking about something that goes three weeks, is it 2,200 or 2,500 miles? Is that what it is? About 2,500. That's insane. That's an insane amount of time pushing your body. 100 miles a day.

But once you get to the top level, it's remarkable how efficient it is. I mean, you have 200 guys going down the road on a normal day if it's a flat day and there's not wind or crosswind or rain or, you know, the conditions. It's pretty easy, to be honest. I mean, it's conversational. The final is tough and the final gets fast and people are competing for the stage win. But it's not, you know, those three weeks aren't like three weeks on the line. I mean, on, you know, in the red line. So you have to pace yourself.

The peloton paces itself. Like, you know, they sort of pace and police, for lack of a better word, itself. And when... And obviously the mountains and the time trials. Right. Or where the race is decided. and those are the hardest moments when they first started introducing uh things like um uh when they started using transfusions and things along those lines how much of an improvement did it have on the times well you know it's it's it's hard to say because the times are, you know, people look at our era.

They look at my generation and they say, OK, well, the times must be significantly faster. But you can't compare cycling to track and field or cycling to another sport that's had a rough patch and is now trying to clean itself up because technology changes. Road surfaces change. Obviously, training has changed. But I mean, if you go back to the 84 games right here in Los Angeles, that was really the first major exposure you had for transfusions, which the American team did and Rolling Stone exposed it. But a transfusion was an old school. EPO replaced that, right? but a transfusion is just a, it was an old school EPO replace that, right? Because you had a transfusion is just adding red cells to your system, which carries oxygen and gives you more oxygen. Then you had a drug came along that did that for you. So you didn't have to extract the

blood. You didn't have to put it back in. It made it, you know, it made it a lot easier. And then when the test, when they refined the EPO test and ultimately came up with it, you know, it made it a lot easier. And then when the test, when they refined the EPO test and ultimately came up with it, then people went back to the old school system. So, and then came other ways to detect that through, not so much through a test, but just through what they call the biological passport. So just studying parameters in your blood, whether it's reticulocytes or red cells or, you know, all of these things that smart people can come up with tests for. It was more of a screening method to detect A transfusion. What's kind of fucked up about all this is that you won the Tour de France seven times.

You obviously trained like a demon pushed yourself to the limits you beat everyone in the competition and they were all doing the same thing you were doing right yet you're the one who's demonized and yet you're the one who takes all the grief for it yeah and there's a situation that happens when you're involved you're involving money you're involving sponsors you're involved when you once you first start once the ball starts rolling and the first deception has been launched out there into the ether yep there's no way to take it back if you want to keep racing yep and that's the thing I mean people look I mean my situation my story and and I hear you loud and clear and you can say that I can never say that

you know when I when I if I were to say things like that people would they would nuke me but it is what it is it is what it is but that's anyhow there was the doping okay which led to the lying, which led to the treatment of other people. I think by and large, people can have the perspective that you have. They can say, well, looks to me like everybody did it. So, okay. Then they can look to the line and that's where they really start to not like it. They say, this guy lied to us repeatedly.

But, of course, you get, you know, there's no defense to that. But if I could share any personal insight, I mean, once you lie once, you just keep lying. You keep lying. It's not as if I'm going to sit here, you know, this is 15 years ago, and Joe, you're a nice guy. I mean, if I was on this podcast, I would have lied to your fucking face a million times, just so you know. I would have. Just so you know. just so you know. I would have. Just so you know. Just so you know.

But that's not a surprise to you or anybody else. But once you're in there, it's not as if I'm going to go, you know, this guy Joe seems like a really nice guy. I think I'm going to be honest with him. It's too much money. There's no way. You can't. Yeah, so I was stuck, for lack of a better word,

in that lie or that deception. But then the way that I took my competitive nature, which served me well in training and in racing, and took it into the real world, took it into a press conference, took it into a personal relationship, took it into former teammates, my relationship. That's the part where people go, okay, fuck this guy forever. Right. I'm done. And so that, you know, you got sort of the three phases, none of them are good, but as it got further away, that, you know, lack of respect for others is the thing that totally fucked me. And, that, I would say to anybody that I understand, and I may be in their time out forever, I have, and the only thing I will add that may sound like I'm trying to defend myself

is I've tried to make amends with all those people, right? The ones that we all know, the ones people talk about. I've traveled the world, I've sat with them, I've looked them in the eyes and said, what I did was totally unacceptable and I'm sorry. And almost everybody has accepted the apology and we've moved on. But that doesn't get to this, you know, this crowd of people that you can't sit with face to face and you can't say you're sorry. I mean, I can talk to you. We can talk about it. Some people may view that as an apology or not. But the ones that I could go sit with, I did. And that's all that I would add to that. And I, I mean, I'm proud that most of those people, and I say most, not everybody, because not everybody's

ready. But most of those people said, you know what're good we're done and so if it was my son and he acted that way first of all I'd say the fuck you doing you can't act that way but I had nobody was standing over me going dude what what do you you're acting like an asshole nobody did that so but if my son did that I would say you get over there and you make it right with that person. So that's where it is, and here we go. You're also in this bizarre position at the time to be the only famous cycler in the entire country. Cyclist.

Cycler? Isn't that it? No, that's a— A little cycler is cycling drugs. A cyclist. Biker. Biker. But a biker is like Sons of Anarchy.

And that's, yeah. Yeah. I kind of get burned out on that series. But, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of weight to carry around. Yeah. And then there's the cancer organization, there's Livestrong. All of it.

There's a lot of weight you're carrying around. I speak to it all the time. I mean, it was a huge wave. But you're also balancing out so much good with this lie. And this lie is helping all this good. Right. Like the Livestrong Foundation is generating hundreds of millions of dollars, helping all these people with cancer. I've seen you in the hospitals with these kids.

And it makes me having kids myself, it makes me cry. Yeah. Seeing these kids with face masks on because their immune system's so compromised and they don't have any hair and they're just devastated yep and you're hanging out with these kids and you're generating all this positive energy for them generating all this money all this all this research that's being funded so there's all this good as well you start telling the truth that stops well we know what happens because it happened yeah it did happen it happened and we know right up i don't see any of those fucking bracelets

anymore no those goddamn things were everywhere yeah yeah they were we had a good run and 85 million bracelets yeah but look i mean i don't want anybody to be mistaken my interests were selfish. I mean, I was defending myself and protecting myself. But at the same time, it wasn't just myself I was protecting. I was protecting the sport. I was protecting our sponsors. I was protecting the tour. I was protecting the foundation. And, you know, it's just hard to say, I'm going to stop.

And what we just said, I mean, we now know on all of those things, right? We know what's happened to the foundation. We know what's happened to the sport. We know what's happened to the sponsor. We know. We can now see. It was a devastating toll. And, you know, most would say, well, that's all your fault, Lance.

And maybe they're right. But it's been, you know, especially on the foundation side, dude, it just breaks my heart to see that the effect it's had on their effectiveness. Well, it's got to be way more complicated than it's just all your fault. It's way more complicated than it's just all your fault. It's way more complicated because when you're talking about an entire sport that's dirty, for lack of a better word, an entire sport that's being deceptive, an entire sport that's using these performance-enhancing drugs, and then you're talking about you because you're this weird outlier. You're this one guy who is incredibly successful in a country where nobody gave a fuck about the Tour de France until you came along. I mean, it's Greg LeMond and you.

Yeah. You know, I mean, this. Yeah. I mean, that's it. But this is, I mean, the story, and the story being what it was, a cancer survivor that comes back, that wins this event, that transcends the sport, that brings the sport to cycling. Although Greg did do, I mean, a tremendous job. Really, that was like the first blow up of cycling in the United States. And then comes my story.

I mean, that's the story was so the story was too big. Right. And that's the reason that incentivized and motivated people like Novitsky and like the feds to come along and say, oh. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I mean, they're not doing that to save the world. They're not doing that to save the children. No matter what ulterior motives that they might try to list as, well, we wanted to make

sure that children don't do this. We wanted to send a great message. Bullshit. try to list as well we wanted to make sure the children don't do this we wanted to send a great message we have bullshit it's it's a high profile high publicity avenue for them to achieve notoriety yeah but but right and we will get into that but the the you know my rivals so if you take you know my main rivals whether it's jan ulrich or basso or baloki or pentani or you know their star factor for lack of a better phrase, was just different. And they, you know, they weren't cancer, it wasn't, so it, there was this disparity, which the sport enabled there to be, because it's just kind of an old school,

janky sport in terms of the way it's organized and run as a business, that it was like a South American economy. There was really the haves and the have-nots. That's a crazy way of putting it. Yeah. I mean, when you have something like that, it doesn't work. And so what you need to, you know, all of those ships need to rise with that sea. And I probably didn't do a good enough job uh trying to push for that in my in my time um but don't you have only a certain amount of resources i mean with one of

the things that i've always said about extreme winners is uh there's there's a borderline between greatness and madness and it crosses back and forth yeah i would say that greatness and madness are next door neighbors and they borrow each other's sugar Yeah, because there's almost no way you can get that good without almost losing your fucking mind. Yeah, right I've met some people that are fantastic at things the great ones. I've met great ones, especially great fighters And they're all fucking crazy Yeah It's almost like you can't you can't not be because every you can't be a regular guy and get there right? I probably was it yeah, I probably still am a little crazy. Oh, you're crazy. I can tell you're definitely crazy

No, but I don't think you're bad. I don't think you're a bad guy I mean, I don't know you that well Yeah But I just think you have to have that that sharpness Yeah You have to have that that grit you have to have that aggressive competitive nature in order to succeed Especially in some fucking thing where everyone's doing the same thing. There's not a lot of creativity involved There's not a lot of the variables you're fucking pushing yourself and then pushing yourself. You're pumping your legs

That's it. You can't you know can't fake to the left and go to the right You can't fucking throw up some new move that no one's ever seen before You're you're fucking pushing yourself. Yeah, you definitely had some of those but at the end of the day left and go to the right. You can't fucking throw up some new move that no one's ever seen before. You're fucking pushing yourself. We had some of those. Yeah, you definitely had some of those, but at the end of the day, you're on a fucking bike, and everybody else is on a bike, and you're going up the goddamn same hill. And there were no secrets.

That concentrates down what the competitive nature is to, like, the edge. Who's got the sharper edge? Who's more intense and you he's getting riled up I get riled up dude I'm gonna step back don't jump across this table I mean isn't that a big old kettlebell over here I'm gonna swing at you if you come over here just settle down isn't that what it is though yeah I mean that it has to be what it is it's

the only way to win yeah it's it's an endurance event, so you have to be a little careful with that. But there are those moments where you just have to unleash everything you have. And you can unleash them in training or in racing. Yeah, but yes. That seems like a really good point where you just put that out. You have to be careful with that. You have to know when to put. You have to know your body really intimately.

And you have to manage it over the course of many, many, many days. Say the marathon. I mean, nobody takes off and, you know, like it's a hundred yard dash. I mean, you have to manage. Obviously, you have the experience of knowing what that effort is going to look and feel like. And you know how to manage all of that. But yeah, I mean, three weeks long, man long man you got to be you got to be careful yeah is there a moment where you remember like during a race where you wanted to push but you

had to back down like there was is there moments where you like you're managing because i didn't have it well yeah where you feel like i just this is not a smart thing to go and and now and you know now you can i mean when we race you well, in the old days, people just trained and they thought, well, I'm going to go hard today and I'm going to go easy tomorrow. Right. And then it came the heart rate monitor and they, you know, followed their heart rate and they managed their training and racing through that. And then came the power meters. And so now there's all these, you know, there are these devices where you can really monitor all of that stuff. And so you're out there, you're not just sort of driving around blind. I mean, you actually can see what you're doing and you, and that makes managing

that effort a lot easier. What is it? What are the differences in numbers? Like if you go back to like a hundred years ago, well, assuming that people weren't using corkscrews and, or corks and fishing line and whatever other ways they were cheating. Like, what is, like, a realistic difference between the early days of winning and today? You have to look at modern cycling. I mean, you have to look at when, you know, the bike basically got to the, you know, the bikes and the wheels and these things got to where they are today. And, you know, they're, I mean, they're fast now. These guys are fast. And that's, you know, two things have happened. Number one, my

story got exposed. And so then people question everybody, whether it's Chris Froome, who won the Tour de France this year, or somebody that wins the world championships, they question them because of me. And then they say, okay, well, you know, he's dirty, seems like everybody's dirty, so you must be dirty. And then they go to the Times, right? They look at my Times and the Tour de France, or they look at the Peloton's Times, and they see now that the Times are actually either the same or better. So they say, well, then of course, that supports my argument that you're dirty. Does it? Well, if it's fat, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't have the answer to that.

And I get asked all the time, what's going on now? I have no idea. I mean, I'm so far removed from cycling that I have no earthly idea of what's going on or not going on. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame those guys. I understand it but you know shit I mean you could have these athletes might be a lot better the training might be a lot better I do think technology the bikes the wheels even road surfaces are a lot better and is there is there any part of you that's

kind of pissed off that there are performance enhancing drugs like if there was nothing and if it just had to be mono a mono same result you would have the same result i would have this it is my belief that that the results would be the same there would be a few seconds slower or whatever whatever it would be it doesn't matter if the overall time's slower what matters is is is if you were five minutes ahead of the next guy. That's what matters. That's what matters. That's my belief.

But there are others that don't hold that belief. There are others that say no. I mean, doping affects individuals differently. And, you know, you might have won two or you might have won none. Well, that means that some people weren't doping correctly. But, look, once you're doping, if you're doping and the other guy's doping better than you, like, well, then you're not doing your job doping. You know, you're not being a good competitive doper.

No, he's not like Bill. But, I mean, that's really what it is, right? I mean, doesn't it make sense? It gets complicated. And we would talk forever and people would argue with us forever about that. Yeah, but they're not here. Oh, they are. They're listening.

Oh, they're here. But my perspective is really clear on that. I mean, I think if you have a sport where everybody's, you know, and we were both talking about the Bill Burr thing that he did on Conan, which is like, yeah, our psychopath is better than your psychopath. You know, that's really what it is. You can't say that, I mean, how could they take away, this is one of the things that drove me the craziest about this. Like, what did they do with the seven years where you won, where they said you're not the winner anymore? Well, who the fuck won it then? That's.

How do you find the guy who won it? Joe, that's a problem. What's in the find the guy who won it so that's that's that's a problem what's in the record books that's it's empty empty empty so that's empty for seven years yeah yeah that's ridiculous and look i you you i agree with you but you can say that i cannot say that all i will say is that i don't i don't think it's, far be it from me to talk about what's fair or not fair, but I don't think it's fair for the sport to leave those empty. I think that's crazy. And compare and contrast.

So in the Tour, you have the yellow jersey, who's the guy who wins. You have the polka dot jersey, who's technically the best climber. And then you have the green jersey, who's technically the best sprinter. the best climber. And then you have the green jersey, who's technically the best sprinter. Those seven years were, the green jersey was won by Zabel, who admitted to having doped all seven of those years. The polka dot jersey was won by Varenque from France, who admitted to having doped all those years. Those all stand. Everything's still there. That's hilarious. But the yellow jersey has been erased. You know, second place, third place, all those places are still there. The years prior to me where somebody had admitted or was caught, all still there.

So there's just an asterisk in first place. If you go to Wikipedia, there's just a line through it. Pffft. Yeah. That's so strange. That's the word, man. It's very strange. And it's strange for me.

And it makes me sad because, look, I'm going to be honest. I believe I won the races. Well, no, you did win the races. No, you won the races. The people to ask are the ones that got beat. Yeah. So if you ask them, right, if you ask Jan, if you ask jan if you ask zula if you ask below if you ask any of them they say he won those bike races and so man it it do you still

have those yellow jerseys in your house or do you have to give them back no good fuck them she put up an instagram picture of them every day that was yeah that yeah i'm not gonna put that picture up again that was a great picture though are you chilling on the couch with seven yellow jerseys on your wall i got i got nuked for that one well you're gonna get nuked no matter what you do look but i but i i look i mean they're up yeah they're up and uh and and i'm proud of them i really am and i'm proud of and that's the thing too is that as weird as it is and as strange as it is that there's just a line through those years as if they did not happen yeah um man i i had i was paid to do a job right as messy as the job was whatever i was paid to do it and i did it uh and i wanted to win i wanted to

capture those memories for myself and for my teammates. And nobody can take those away from me. I still hold those memories to myself. And, yeah, it's had a complicated ending, but I still view those as victories and I still view those memories as good. Carrying around the lie and being interrogated and questioned. And was that the hardest part about all of it? You know, I was, I was only interrogated or questioned with the press and even, um, you know, God, if it would have been in this day and age with, with, with Twitter and

Facebook and social media, and, uh, it would have, it would have been a thousand times worse. I mean, this was, you know, I mean, this was in the late 90s. I mean, think about that. That was a long time ago. And so the level of scrutiny, while it was high, wasn't nearly as high as it would have been today. But yeah, I mean, once you dig in, you know, with these guys, you're stuck. Once you finally came clean, I mean, obviously there was a lot of blowback, but was there also a relief?

Not immediately. Not immediately. I mean, I get asked that a lot. And I think people expect me to say, well, you know, it was just this huge relief off your shoulders when you talk to Oprah or whatever you did that you can now move forward and live the life of an honest man and et cetera, et cetera. But it's taken me, let me just sum it up. let me just sum it up. I mean, sitting here today having this conversation, I would much prefer to have this conversation than the one where I would have lied to your fucking face 15 times 10 years ago. I'd much rather us talk like this.

So that's a relief. But it's not like I walked out of sitting with Oprah and was like, oh, my God, I feel amazing. That was an ass-whipping. What was it like sitting there with Oprah? She's drilling you, asking you questions. How about that start? She came out hot.

She came out hot. Yes or no. She only wanted yes or no. I thought she did a good job. She did a great job. I thought she did a good job. It was very compelling because of the way she structured the beginning part of the conversation. Yeah.

Especially if you're going to do something like that on television, you want to capture people and keep them there. You kind of have to approach it that way. I thought she did a good job. I don't... I know that it wasn't well-received. And I... In what way?

You mean people didn't like you afterwards in that way? Yeah, well, I think there's two things. Number one, I wasn't emotionally ready to do that interview. I wasn't in a place where I think that I sit today where it is a position of contrition and understanding the tremendous sense of betrayal that's out there. nutrition, and understanding the tremendous sense of betrayal that's out there. Like, my perception of that today is much sharper than it was three years ago when I sat with her. The feds and other lawsuits forced my hand. I had to sit there with that because I knew I was going to be sitting with her or with you or with Tom Brokaw, or I was going to be sitting with a government lawyer, being deposed, being videoed, and being leaked. So I said, well, I was going to be sitting with a government lawyer, being deposed, being videoed, and being leaked. So I said, well, I'm going to go.

I'm going to find the place that I'd rather sit down and talk about this as opposed to a grainy video that the government leaks to the world, and that's your coming out party. So I did that. But the thing about Oprah is, aside from me just not being ready at the time to do it, people sensed that. But most importantly, for the diehard cycling fans and sports fans, I didn't say enough. You didn't name names. You didn't call anybody out. It wasn't detailed enough. You're holding back. You're protecting people. That's what they said. That's a very small percentage of the population.

For the majority of the population, those first five minutes was way too much information. They were like, what the fuck did I just hear? Like blood bags, EPO, testosterone, transfusions, cheating. It was way too much. So you had people that were one camp, a smaller camp said he didn't say enough. He's he's holding back here. The other camp was like, alright, that's more than I needed to hear. And so everybody was pissed.

But I don't know why they would think it's too much. I mean, I don't know. I don't understand that logic because it is reality. Dude, you're a grandma in Duluth. Right. And you supported the cancer survivor. Santa Claus isn't real. And you hear that? I mean, you're sitting there going, I don't like anything about this.

So I see because they were also supporting Livestrong. Yeah. Also supporting the cancer survivor. How much of an effect did it have like almost immediately on your foundation? I don't know. Because I was asked to leave the foundation before that. And I haven't been your foundation? I don't know because I was asked to leave the foundation before that and I haven't been back so I don't know and I'm not and I don't ask. Is it still around? Yeah yeah. But it must have taken a devastating hit. I think so I mean

it takes a hit in terms of obviously in terms of fundraising which directly leads to its effectiveness in terms of helping create change for cancer survivors all around the world. You need to raise money in order to do that. Staff layoffs. I mean, you name it. But I don't have specifics because once I left the board and left the organization and they legally changed the name, uh, I mean, I don't know. It, none of it was shocking to me. Um, I mean, I knew, I didn't know, but I knew that every, I have a friend who is a professional cycler. Just say his name is John cyclist. Sorry. We're going to get this right okay people i'm gonna write it down cyclist

yeah he's a biker so people say the ultimate fighting challenge it's championship um and see i would say that yeah the challenge okay my friend john was a 2000 maybe three three four and he told me he was like listen man we were all we're all on it he goes guys would get off the bus in the middle of the night you'd hear them taking off their bikes and going for a ride because their blood got too thick those old stories yeah that's from EPO right it that's yeah I've heard those stories. I never saw that. Well, so my friend John, I mean, maybe he was on a crazy team or something like that.

But back in the day, before they got it dialed in. Well, what happened was there was no test, right? So no sport had a test, whether it's cycling or swimming or running. Or even boxing. Or whatever sport is using EPO. They didn't have a test for EPO and so they uh and with you know one of the side effects of EPO or you know or increasing your red cell count is your blood it's it's literally a question of viscosity right so your oil and your motor oil yeah well that's the only time you ever think of the word viscosity

right yeah it's your motor oil But more red cells means thicker blood. If your blood's too thick, we know what happens. It's not, it isn't a good thing. And so the sport had to go to, they couldn't test for it. The science wasn't there yet. So they went to these sort of preventative screening methods, right? So then they started testing the viscosity or the thickness of people's bloods, otherwise known as hematocrit, right? And so they would use that as a screen. Anybody above 50% hematocrit couldn't race. You weren't positive. You didn't get banned. But you were put on the side for two weeks as a health measure. Anyone under 50% was fine to race. So everybody took that as, I mean, before that, there were people

that were 60, 64%. Those guys might be getting up in the middle of the night going for a little spin. Yeah. But at 50, you know, they deemed that sort of the healthiest level, you know. But people pushed it right up to 50 then. And there's some side effects and there's some possible potential health risks as far as, like, strokes and things along those lines, right? I'm sure. Did anybody that was on the tour ever drop dead from epo well there's there there was you know look there there i don't know i mean there are a lot of documented cases especially in the 80s right when epo i guess was first hitting the scene

there was this wave of dutch cyclists that passed away in the night and you know in the night huh in their sleep and that's probably when it would happen well i i don't know i mean i i didn't i didn't do the autopsy you know nobody i don't know if anybody's ever proven that but that that's sort of i don't want to say that was the myth but that was uh that the drug, took the blame for those deaths. And so it hasn't happened since, and it didn't happen in our generation, but I don't know. But my point being that it can be fairly dangerous. Well, if your blood, you can imagine, if it gets too thick, that would not be. One of the things that, it didn't surprise me that when you came clean, I was like, well, good for him.

That was really what I thought. I was like, it's kind of fucked up that he was lying all this time. It's kind of fucked up that he was suing people that were saying that he was telling lies. that he was telling lies and but one of the things that shocked me the most when I was thinking about it was that you you'd recovered from cancer you had one of your testicles removed you had brain surgery you had lung cancer you mean your your body was ravaged by this and yet you still were taking drugs yeah that's that's what got me I like that. What a crazy desire to win that you, you got to this place where your body was, you know, you were on death's door and recover from it and then put yourself back in risk. Yeah.

I mean, yeah. Saying it like that, it, it, it, there's no, there's no justifying that other than I was in this sport that I really wanted to be in and stay in. And after the disease, I wanted to go back to. And that was the landscape. And so you viewed it, you thought, okay, this is not ideal. This is not ideal, but you ask the question, knowing my health history with cancer, with all that I went through, is going back to my sport and taking EPO a risk to my disease or to my health? And the answer to that, obviously, my answer to myself was no. You really didn't think that it was a risk to push your body like that and to put all these – I mean, they're in a lot of ways. They're pushing your body in an unnatural way or to an unnatural level.

Testosterone and human growth hormone and EPO and all these. And that's the only difference that was made was, I mean, I had a slight experience with growth hormone before the disease. And then after the diagnosis and the treatment and the recovery, I said, okay, that does not sound like a good idea. Because it's too dangerous. Yeah. And in my own fucked up way, was thinking well that would lead to the growth of uh of tumors of you know a malignant cell etc etc so um but i didn't view those two the same plus i don't think hgh is for cycling i don't think it's very effective anyways. I think it's a waste. Did you alter your diet?

Well, for sure, yeah. What changes did you make when you came back from having cancer? Man, I was – and again, this is the stuff that we can talk about. I talked about forever and it's almost sort of mocked now because we talked about the change in diet and the increased intensity of know, intensity of training and the reconnaissance and the technology and the wind tunnel. And we did all of those things and they all worked, you know, but I say they're mocked now because people now know the truth. We all know the truth and people say, oh, he told us it was all that other bullshit. He told us it was the training. He told us it was his diet. Right. Well, now we know it was just the doping. Well, it wasn't though. It was the doping end that was the last

that was the final piece yeah which just was unfortunately and it was as we've said numerous times it's just it was unfortunate and it was inevitable um but that was the the final piece and the and it was also the piece that we never talked about of course right of course yeah see this is the weight you're carrying around i'm what, I'm, what I'm asking you about your diet. I literally didn't know that you had discussed this ad nauseum of sort of my cancer mission, you know, and recovered and took a year and a half away and went back, I viewed, I mean, I viewed racing bikes as life and death. I viewed it, I viewed my disease as a competitive event, as a sporting event. It's me versus the opposition looking at the scoreboard, how are we doing? And then when I got to, when I got back on the bike, it was like life and death. And so everything was intensified.

Starving yourself, training your ass off, just being, as you said a minute ago, just being generally fucking totally crazy for a result. Mad. Not mad, but madness. You were starving yourself to be lighter yeah well that's part of it i mean you know these poor guys now i mean they're they're a lot skinnier than we were i mean this is guys riding five six hours a day and not eating i mean it just it fucking sucks how do they do it you don't eat this is just just deal with it just go to bed hungry wow just just keep your body weight

light it's all power to weight i wish you were still i wish i would like to know what the fuck these guys are doing now i would like to know when you see guys with faster times and really ridiculously stringent drug testing yeah and well anytime i go anywhere near that, I just get destroyed because the people view it as me accusing them. I mean, because I get a lot of questions, so I'll tweet back and say, don't ask me. I have no idea. You know, people take that as saying, well, he just blamed them. He just accused them of doing the same shit. I feel bad for those guys, man. I feel bad for any top-level rider that is racing their bike in 2015 and has to answer questions about a guy from 1999. Like, if I was winning in 99,

what is that, 16 years? If somebody asked me a question about somebody from 1983, I'd say, what the fuck are you talking about? Don't ask me that question. Like, why are you asking me about some dude 20 years ago? I'm here today. So, but it's... Well, that's the craziest thing about you and the sport.

You're inexorably tied to it. There's no way to pull it away from you. Like, that scandal was one of the, at least in the United States, was one of the biggest aspects of that sport ever. It's still, I mean any any story that gets written i mean so i don't know if you follow track and field or all of this stuff that came out of ben johnson that's all that's the old old but there's there was just this revelation that came out of international track and field and the russian federation and the covers ups there and all of

those stories that get written whether it's on deadspin or the New York Times or on Twitter, they all reference this story as well. So you get put back, which is, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, but it brings people back to that, to my history. Yeah, it's baseball and Barry Bonds. They're tied. There's just no way you're going to separate the two of them together. Yeah. It's got to be a very bizarre thing for those people that are racing.

Ask them. Yeah, you should. You don't want to. You don't want to ask them. Nobody knows who they are. That's the most fucked up thing about it. It's like you're like, I mean, in a way, like Tony Hawk is the only skateboarder I've ever heard of. I'm sure I've met a few other ones, but I don't remember their names. But Tony Hawk is that guy.

You think of skateboarding, you think of Tony Hawk. You think of bike racing, you think of Lance Armstrong. You think of swimming, you think of Michael Phelps. Yeah. Well, Greg LeMond is a diver. You think of him, I guess. He's kind of a swimmer. But there's not a lot of names.

Greg LeMond is a cyclist. What's the other guy?. He's kind of a swimmer. But there's not a lot of names. Greg LeMond's a cyclist. No, what's the other guy? Greg Louganis. Louganis. Sorry. Dude. I'm going to pay attention. At least you said cyclist.

I did. I'm getting better. Greg Louganis. Greg LeMond's probably like, what the fuck? Yeah. It's weird when you have a sport where the public locks on to one person and they don't know any of the other people in it like if it's football there's like fucking hundreds of guys hundreds boxing hundreds of guys but with cycling there's just so few yeah

and you carrying the weight of that sport in the united states and trying to popularize it as well as holding on to this lie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that when I hear you say that, I mean, it and you may not be defending me, but it sounds as if you're defending me. So I don't I don't necessarily want that. I mean, I'm not defending you.

Right. What I'm doing, I'm trying to illuminate reality in a pretty objective way well you can yeah do that on your next podcast because me sitting here right now people it makes you uncomfortable no it doesn't make me uncomfortable but i i i'm of the belief that nobody wants to hear that shit that they're still i i think people are upset i know they're upset so some people do i mean look, look, you're going to have people that are upset. I think what we're dealing with when it comes to the Internet is just a gigantic number of people. There's too many people to say, some people want this, some people... You can't manage it.

Hundreds of millions of people who can get on their Facebook or get on their Twitter and just start giving their input right now. And that's never happened before. And when that happens, you're going to be understandably sensitive to the outcome yep yeah yeah what was the blowback like like when you when you did the oprah thing and then you just went out into the public did you just try to lay low for a while yeah i tried to well there was there were several uh variations of quote-unquote blowback. There was just the public's perception.

So if I walked down the street, which I have to admit was better than I expected, right? Nobody – it's not as if I left talking with Oprah and I walked out on the street and, you know, people were throwing shit at me. I mean, that just – that's never happened. It could happen one day, but it hasn't yet. There's the blowback, which is the most important part, which is the way my kids were treated. I've got five kids, three older ones. I was very concerned with what they heard in the hallways, what they saw on their social media stuff. What does that news do to them?

That is the most important thing. And a real credit to the city of Austin and the schools that they go to and our community and their friends and the kids in the school, very little blowback. So that was, for me, that was like the biggest relief. Like people can throw shit at me and say shit all day long. But if my kids were treated roughly, I mean, that would just, that would break your heart, wouldn't it? Yeah, it would be devastating. Yeah, that would break your heart, wouldn't it? I mean, yeah, that'd be the, by far the worst. So that was, um, that was very fortunate that, that, that was not seamless. I mean, there was some stuff, but they managed it and we managed it and the community managed it pretty well. And then there was the legal blowback, which was, uh, which was pretty nasty. I mean, I, I got, as soon as I stepped off the stage with Oprah, call it a stage,

the lawsuit just piled up. I mean, and piled up big. And how many of them are still ongoing right now? There's one. Just one? One. The federal government one? The federal case. And the federal case...

But there were... And some of them were highly publicized, and some were not. The problem, the team was insuring all of my salaries and all of my bonuses unbeknownst to me. And so, because they didn't have the money. And so when this goes down, all of these companies came back and said, where's our money? And I said, well, who are you? I said, well, we're, so the team, I knew about one situation, right? The big one, the SCA case, which has been settled since. But there were many, many others. And some were public, some were private, but they all had to get settled. And so we've navigated that landscape. And now we're just down to the postal case, the federal case.

And when is that going to be resolved? federal case. And when is that going to be resolved? That's a good question. It's been going on a long time. And it came on the heels of a two or three year criminal investigation, which you're well aware of through Jeff Novitsky and through the U.S. Attorney's Office here in Los Angeles. So once that case was closed, then the civil division picked up the postal case. And it's been ongoing for years and and you know we've sort of finished that first phase of litigation and that it'll go to trial maybe a year from now in washington dc we we talked about this very briefly before the podcast we wanted to kind of save it for the podcast i don't understand the criminal investigation i don't understand the

allocation of resources towards someone who was bike racing. I feel like in a world where we have bankers that causes gigantic 2008 financial collapse, where we have pharmaceutical companies making billions of dollars getting people hooked on Oxycontins, when we have crime

and murder and all the fucking problems we have in this culture, to spend taxpayers dollars on bike racing a guy who may have cheated or definitely cheated in a sport where everybody's cheating that seems kind of fucked up well you can it's mccarthyism i mean you can have first of all cyclists don't have any lobbyists nobody's out protecting us whatever we did or didn't do in Europe 20 years ago. The banks do. Big Pharma does, et cetera, et cetera.

So that's kind of a good old boys club that we're not a part of. And we've talked about this offline. I mean, when you have a federal agent and a guy like Nowitzki who's made his career with these types of cases, whether it's Balco or Bonds or Marion Jones, when you have a guy like that that all of a sudden is interested, it's going to happen. And when you have that particular agent or any agent that walks in to interview a witness or interview an old teammate with a badge

and a gun, they're talking. Yeah, it gets weird, right? Yeah. It's a different kind of investigation. Yeah. So, of course, I mean, I heard what you said. Of course, I don't think it makes much sense. But I was in the crosshairs. So people are going to say, well, of course, you don't think it makes sense. But look, I mean, and I listened to your podcast with Novitsky and, I mean, it's just – there's some bullshit in there. And so – What specifically? You know, I think the idea that – and again, I'm not – I don't work for the government. I don't work for the U.S. Attorney's Office here.

But I think the idea that he was brought into the investigation, I don't know that that's necessarily true. I think – and again, I don't know Jeff, but I think he went, I think he looked for those cases. I mean, and whether or not, and by the way, when you're an agent for the Food and Drug Administration, I don't know how, I mean, all of these things have missions. He was, you know, he was an agent for the IRS. And so that's when Balco and Bond started. I don't know that doping in baseball is an IRS issue. I don't know that doping and cycling 20 years ago is an issue for the FDA. I mean, they regulate who makes aspirin and who gives you your lettuce and your eggs. What does that have to do with?

But I think he was opportunistic when it came to these cases, whether it's Barry Bonds or myself. And, you know, he thrived on that. Well, I think you look at it two ways in one, on one hand, he certainly capitalizes on these high profile cases. He certainly goes after them. Um, on the other hand, him capitalizing and being the, the rabbit investigator that he is, it highlights the issues that are going on. Sure.

So the, the, I think the real problem is the allocation of money, like how much money is being spent on these cases. You know, he told me that the Barry Bonds case, that they only spent like $100,000. I didn't expect that. I didn't question him, and I didn't research it beforehand. I didn't know that that was even going to come up. But then once i did research it

it seems like it was a fuckload more money than a hundred thousand dollars yeah well that's that's obviously that's laughable but um whatever the number was it it you know it wasn't a hundred thousand but it was it was probably not as much as what was reported um but hey that's uh that's the united States of America. That's what they get to do. And also you get a guy like him, and that's how these issues get highlighted. I mean, that's why we know about it, because he was so aggressive in his tactics. He was so aggressive in chasing down anybody that he thought was doing these drugs.

That's why we know about these cases in such an extreme detail. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Man, it was, it was, it was, it was, it wasn't pleasant watching that or listening to that podcast. I mean, and the fact that, I don't know if you're bullshitting me or not, the fact that he wanted to do the podcast with me. Oh, he did. Yeah.

He asked to do it. What kind of crazy is that? Yeah. He has to do it. What kind of crazy is that? Well, I think he wanted to find out how he felt about it, what it feels like now. He wants to, I mean, he's ongoing. I mean, he works right now doing drug investigations for the UFC. Right.

And he's done a fantastic job to the point where, as I was telling you before the podcast, we've seen radical changes in fighters' physiques and their performances. Guys who are world beaters have dropped off substantially. The word in the mixed martial arts community, when I talk to fighters, when I talk to trainers, it's had a gigantic impact, and they're terrified because they've imposed these very strict fines and probationary periods. and and as you also

said before the podcast i mean you have a sport where you know the bigger and stronger you are physically the more you're pummeling somebody else's head in yes it's different it's different yeah it's different than baseball it is definitely different i think it's much more it's much more important is the sport just as exciting it's pretty damn exciting so it's hard to say if it's much more important. Is the sport just as exciting? It's pretty damn exciting. It's hard to say if it's just as exciting or not because I think there's a lot of great fighters who are world champions who are clean. It's like some of the all-time greats.

I mean, there's great guys right now. Frankie Edgar, clean as a whistle. Chris Wybin, very clean. Rockhold, clean. He's the new champion in the middleweight division there's a lot of great fighters that are clean it's um it's hard to tell there's a lot of fighters who weren't clean who are fucking awesome when they weren't clean vitor belfort who uh went on this wild run for like at 36 years old when he uh they had this is one of the problems one of the

big problems with the ufc was that they had legal testosterone replacement for a short period of time right for a few years and guys were just fucking juicing to the tits you know like a skittles oh they would come back with these hyper human levels like they would test them and you know like a normal person in your testosterone level would be like a low three a high eight eight hundred vitor was like 1475 and he looked like a fucking silverback and just hyper aggressive super confident that's different you know that's that's dangerous and winning and beating guys to you know to a pulp right that's uh it's that's a different situation it's a you know you to a pulp. Right. That's a different situation.

You know, you're not talking about an extreme endurance sport. Like that kind of aggression and explosion wouldn't benefit you in cycling because it's such a long endurance race. And also the benefit isn't the end result isn't someone's health. Right. Doesn't get compromised by it. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean's i don't know that sport that well and and i don't know what people's feeling are in and amongst the sport i mean you

just gave a pretty good perspective on it so uh more power to him there it's just it's messy to pull it out it's messy because it was so pervasive It's like if they had figured out, if the tour, if half the guys were clean and half the guys were dirty in the Tour de France, and then they figured out how to pull the drugs out from half, it would be messy, right? Because then it would be like, okay, well, what happened? Why were these guys doing so well and now they're not? The guys are winning or not winning.

But the tour seems like it's so pervasive that if they pulled the drugs out, the same guys would be winning, the times would be slower. But what happened was primarily, I guess, through Nowitzki's investigation, which when it was closed, he more or less handed everything to USADA. USADA picked up the investigation. And then they acted. They gave me the lifetime ban. That left the, like, when the world reads that in 2012, it was the summer of 2012, the world reads that.

The impression is, or when I do Oprah, for example, which is three or four months later, the impression is that we were hanging a blood bag six months ago. Like, it's a current event. It feels, although it had been, it had been seven years before any line had ever been crossed ever, even during the comeback. So, but it made it current. The comeback made it current for people, Novitsky investigating, uh, getting everybody to speak, uh, through his own tactics. investigating, getting everybody to speak through his own tactics, it made it a current event. When it really wasn't, it's like, I remember sitting there in 2012 thinking,

all right, this shit's going down. This is unbelievable. Being in the middle of it, being me, this is unreal. And I thought, you know, and we're talking about 1999 through 2005, but let's use 99 as an example. I remember thinking to myself, who won the Super Bowl in 99? And it was the Broncos and Elway was the MVP. I remember thinking to myself, what if I opened the paper today and the NFL has opened a case against John Elway in 2012? I would have read that and gone, this is a joke, right? Is it April Fool? Like what the fuck? He's like an old guy who stands on the sideline now. Like, so it just, they were able to go way, way back and, and, and sidestep and ignore any sort of due process and statute of limitations. And, and they made it a current event. I'm not blaming them or defending myself. I'm just telling you what happened.

And, you know, that's not totally accurate. Well, it's because it was so long. It went on for so long. Like, remember, they had that Nike commercial. When that Nike commercial, when you were doing that Livestrong Nike commercial, and you're riding your bike, and you're talking about people calling you a doper. This is before you had come clean. That was in 2000.

Yeah, and this is before. You'd never failed any tests. But you still had to address it in a fucking Nike commercial. Yeah. So this was something that was... That was ill-advised. Yeah, it seems right now, right? But that's, again, I mean, all of this,

whether it's agreeing to that commercial or the way you treat it i needed you know somebody in my life to go i i just read this script and or this storyboard and i think that's a real bad idea yeah but did you have anybody like that in your life well clearly not but did. But did anybody suggest it? No. No one. But no. But I was. But isn't that hard, though?

Because you're such a fucking winner. You're on top of the world. Nobody wants to say, hey, man, don't do that. Dude, it's like when you're in that position, everybody's saying yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. Yes.

That's a great idea. Yes, Lance. Yes, absolutely. Right now. idea. Yes, Lance. Yes, absolutely. Right now. Yeah. Yes. Nobody's sitting there playing the devil's advocate or saying, I think that's a bad idea.

I didn't have that North Star, man. And again, I'm not the fucking buck stops with me, man. I should have been mature enough and worldly enough to go. Bad idea. Let's make another commercial or bad idea. Lance, let's say something else in the next press conference. But it seems like the weight of it all and the air of it all was so thick that you kind of had to address it all the time because it was being thrown at you all the time. I was, I peripherally watched cycling peripherally and I knew about it. Everyone knew

about it. But, but, but the more defensive I became and the more aggressive I became in the denials, all that does, right, is it might appease some people or supporters go, did you? I heard it in his voice. I believe that. But what it really did, especially with the press, was it just it just made the next occasion the next question the next episode even more inevitable like it just it added fuel to that fire like i should you know looking back in hindsight i should have just said like i'm not gonna talk about it or whatever the answer was but instead of saying you know it was literally like finger in your chest. Fuck you. Don't ask me that. I mean, that is when you're guilty.

That's a real bad approach. Right. And it's the one that I took. And quite honestly, it's, you know, probably one of the main reasons that we're sitting here today talking about this. Why do you think you took that approach when looking back on it? Because that is the approach that I took in training and in racing. And even, I mean, these are guys that I raced against that I liked, but I would make up reasons to fucking hate them. Like I'd read something and be like, look at this asshole.

Did you read what he's, I mean, he probably didn't even say anything. I'd take it and be like, I can't believe he said just his fuel, just his motivation. So that's all fine and good when you're training and you're racing and you're competing. But when you step off the bike, you have to have that switch to say, okay, that's been done. You won the race. We're not going to go treat another human being that way, right? In just a professional context or in a press context, you got to turn it off, man. And I couldn't, like I was, I had my finger in people's chest on the bike, off the bike everywhere. And so my bad, dude. I mean, I, I didn't have the ability to turn that off. I mean,

it's good to be a competitor, but it's not good to be too competitive. And once you start, once you took that approach, once you started with that approach, did you feel like there was a weight of momentum behind you? Like to dig your heels in and stop it and try a new approach would be very difficult. Well, yeah, once it gets rolling, it's tough to alter. What was it like with the people that you were close to? Obviously the people that you were close to? Obviously, the people that you trained with,

they knew what you were doing, but what about your family and your close friends? How many of them were aware of what was going on? I think, by and large,

I don't know, I wouldn't have asked them and they wouldn't have asked me. I think it was sort of this... So your friends never asked? Hey, man, come here. I think it's more don't ask, don't tell.

They never pulled you aside? Don't ask, don't tell. Really? Yeah you aside? Don't ask, don't tell. Really? Yeah. Wow. Because they probably didn't want to know. Do you have close friends outside of cycling? Yes.

And they didn't ask you? Yeah. Well, no, they didn't. Really? Yeah, I mean, they might also ride bikes, so they're not in the sport. Right. But people you went to dinner with? But the bar was like dude come on

really yeah no one no wow that's fucking crazy if i was your friend dude i would have got you i was just gonna say i got you drunk like come on dude we're gonna hike joe joe joe would be talking about it now he's like i would i remember that time i got him all fucked up and no no no he admitted it i would have never said a word until you came out Once he came out then I would have told until the guy with the badge and the gun showed up And then you would have said everything I would have ducked Jeff Novitski yeah, no I would have hired some lawyers. I believe you guys sit with me when this guy comes in What's going on? What do you want to know? Yeah? Nobody bike racing nobody would have mocked it No, but bike bike racing like a kid's bike

And what you want you you have a gun someone's stealing bikes no they're killing people with bikes the fuck's going on with that gun yeah what happens in these podcasts when when when the interviewee has to take a leak you go take a leak man don't worry what happens to the podcast we'll just pause it for a second what about the people at home i'll talk to them don't worry about oh yeah that's right you're also here too don't worry about it man don't take, that's right. You're also here, too. Don't worry about it, man. Go take a leak. It happens all the time. It's no big deal.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All the time. Don't sweat it. Well, I'm going to go take a leak. Go take a leak.

Please do. It's one thing about athletes. They drink fuckloads of water. Lance is here. He's hungover, too. He has a very specific schedule, he told me. He drinks two cups of coffee in the morning, then he takes a shit, then he drinks water all day, and then he waits until about five, about five, and then he starts drinking.

That's a good drug. I was going to ask him about marijuana. Because if he smoked marijuana and he was holding in all those lies, that shit would fuck with you. Like, I'll smoke some weed, and I'll think about a lie I told in high school, and it'll fuck with me. It really will. I'll think about some shit that I did in high school and it'll make me go, oh, why the fuck did I say that? That's one of the crazy things about marijuana.

It never lets you forget. It'll bring those things up that you're trying to hide. But alcohol? Alcohol's like, don't worry about it, pussy. Alcohol is the best drug if you're trying to hold back a lie just throw that down and you know as soon as you can't walk straight you're thinking about that as soon as you're you know you're you're thinking about the song that's playing you're thinking about your whatever you're thinking about other things it's a good it's a good close your focus drug whereas pot is the

opposite pot is a uh open your focus this is fascinating though isn't it jamie forget you have a secret yeah you forget you don't give a fuck about your secrets i mean that's why people make horrible sexual decisions when they're drunk you know i mean it's also why people think that people that are drunk shouldn't you shouldn't have sex with someone who's drunk, even if you're drunk. I mean, that's why the crazy feminists try to say that that's rape, that if a man and woman have sex and they're drunk, it's rape. Well, they say it because you're obviously not exactly of sound. I mean, it depends on how drunk you are, right? But at a certain level, you're certainly impaired and you can't make good decisions.

but at a certain level, you're certainly impaired, and you can't make good decisions. I think it's funny, though, that a guy who's just such an athlete, lifelong athlete, fucking pounds the hooch like that. I'll ask him how often he does it. We were talking about marijuana and whether or not you used marijuana while you were holding back all those lies and how it would fuck with you because when I was a kid, I'll get high and I'll think about some shit I lied about in high school. And I'm going to go like, oh.

Paranoia. And it'll illuminate areas of your life that you're trying to avoid. Hmm. Hmm. The economy of all this is a fascinating aspect of it. Because there were a lot of people that were making money off of you racing. A lot of people. There was a gigantic industry.

And for them to pretend that they didn't know what I knew as a fucking comedian who, again, peripherally watched cycling. You know, I'd watch you win and I'd be like, damn, that motherfucker won again. Damn. That's it. You know, I'd watch you win, and I'd be like, damn, that motherfucker won again? Damn. That's it, you know? I mean, I'd never raced bikes. I never rode bikes. So for me, and I knew, you know, I'm like, how the fuck does the U.S. Post Office not know?

How the fuck does Nike not know? How the fuck does... They know. They know. They know. They can pretend they don't know, but they know. If they didn't know, then they're irresponsible. That's irresponsible.

But they kind of knew, and they just said, it's all right. We're getting away with it. We're getting away with it. But then, once the shit came down, then they all wanted their money back. Yeah. Well. That's a weird aspect. You can't talk too much about this right that one that one gets sensitive for the post office one tricky the post office one i know you can't talk

about it but can you talk about this is this is a reality when you are accused of defrauding the federal government which is what they're saying because you were riding for the U.S. Post Office, that was the team, and you won X amount of money during that time, they can sue you for three times that money. Correct. Right, so they won $100 million. Yeah, that's a lot of money. How's that going? You know, honestly, that's the only active case, so that one does get a little trickier to talk about.

Just from a, I don't want to get crushed by my lawyers, but we like our case. We think that we're confident in the case. We believe that the Postal Service, while none of this story is perfect, we believe that the Postal Service, and their own numbers support it. I mean, the Postal Service commissioned three separate studies to analyze the effect of the sponsorship on the team. We believe they made hundreds of millions of dollars. And we know that they were also using the team as a sales vehicle. So coming to the, during the tour, bringing over potential new clients, bringing over new clients that were actually converting their business to the postal service. We know that happened and we know that it equaled a significant increase in revenue.

equaled a significant increase in revenue. So we like our case. I mean, and at this point, would I like to have all legal issues out of my life? Yes. But settlement's not an option. And so we have to just fall back on what we think is the strength of the case. Does that, if they made a ton of money while you were being dishonest, does that exonerate you from owing the money? Like, how does that work? Well, I'm not a lawyer, but my view of it's called a key tam case, which is a false claims case. My view is and I think is one that that our side shares is it's about damages. Right. What was the Post postal service damaged? Right.

And what can we prove to be the damages? And, uh, you know, if there are no damages, then, uh, I would like to think that there's no case, but it's, it is what it is. The federal government is interested in the department of justice is interested in the case. Uh, and we, and I have no choice but to fight it. I don't I don't have after, you know, the dozen previous lawsuits, I'm not in a position to, to really cut any more checks. And so I'm in a position where I have to go, I have to go fight this one out. How do you get by financially now? I have to go fight this one out. How do you get by financially now? Well, the first thing that I did was, and I saw this coming, knew this was going to happen, is life was big.

I mean, we had three houses. We had a jet. I mean, we had the whole – you just take that burn rate way down. So you just – your overhead goes way down and you know the crazy thing is is if you'd have told me before like you're gonna go sell a bunch of shit and sell your plane i'm like dude that is life is going to suck without a plane well just you know the house in hawaii i'm right this is i'm not trying i'm not bragging i'm just telling you what really happened. But I would have thought, man, this life is going to be terrible. As you take it down and you live a simpler life and you get your burn rate down and you get it manageable, life's exactly the same. Like, I don't know.

I mean, the happiness factor is exactly the same. Yeah. Like none of that shit. They've done studies on that. They've done studies on that. And none of that shit. It's more convenient. Yeah. Like none of that shit. They've done studies on that. They've done studies on that. And none of that shit. It's more convenient. Yeah.

Right. Obviously getting, going direct somewhere and not dealing with a terminal and, and, you know, fucking TSA. Obviously that's different, but it takes a little more time, you know, around more people. But I'm just as happy as I was. Yeah. They've done studies on people that actually complicate their lives with more success, more houses, more things. And it actually makes you more lives with more success, more houses,

more things. And it actually makes you more tense. It gives you more to think about. Well, you gotta, yeah. I mean, you gotta keep, you know, you have to feed that beast. And so you get a little bit of the dog chasing the tail going on. And, um, you know, life, life was moving real, real fast for me then, and it moves a lot slower now. It might be a little slow for my taste right now, but I didn't like it when it was that fast. So you cut back on all the expenses, and do you earn money now? What do you do to earn money? Occasionally.

So I still speak, and sometimes I'm paid to speak. And then there are just other appearances. I mean, I still have some investments that help sort of ease that pain. But, you know, and who knows what the future holds. I don't know if that stuff dries up forever or comes back or who knows. What is it like to sit while this is all going on and watching the economy of this story grow and develop because it's not it wasn't just the the lawsuits there's also there's books there's documentaries there's all these television shows it's all it's focused there's ad revenue coming from those shows there's all these people that

are dedicating all this time. Their careers become, a big part of their careers become telling the Lance Armstrong story. Yeah, it's a small industry. Yeah. I mean, there was the industries that benefited on the way up, and I was one of those industries. They were the sponsor. I mean, you look at Trek Bicycles, for example. I mean, before the first tour, I think we did $125 million in sales.

We do a billion now. So, yeah, a big difference. So you have those sort of industries. But then, you know, on the way down, so those are all people making money on the way up. And then on the way down, I think it did happen, but it's probably normal and natural that people capitalize on the way down. I mean, look at Bill Clinton. I mean, as he's going through everything he went through, believe me, there were plenty of people going, all right, now it's my turn to make some money. And fair play.

I mean, that's just the way it is. And, you know, some people may think that's BS, but shit. I mean, everybody was hopping on on the way down. Well, they have to, right? Yeah. I mean, it was hopping on on the way down. Well, they have to, right? Yeah. I mean, it is a gigantic story. Now, your friends didn't know what you were doing. When it came out, how many of them had a hard time with it?

How many of them were cool with it? Like, what was it like? You know, it's, yes. I mean, obviously the people, you know, the sponsors fled. Right. Did any of them stay? No. None. How many did you have at a time? Maybe 10. But they have to leave, right?

Right. I mean, like some of them are publicly traded companies, so they have concerns about that. Some of them are just covering their ass, whatever. But they're all gone. whatever, but they're all gone. And friends are interesting. I mean, you have, I mean, just use the foundation as an example, right? I mean, I was on the board, I was the chairman of the board, I was the founder. The board was my friends. But these are the friends that say, okay, you're out. And so I get it that there might be a strategic reason for that. But then when you never hear from these, then all of a sudden, these people disappear from your life. I mean, the way I sum it up is, is anytime anybody goes through anything, and I don't know if you've had some heavy shit in your life, but when you're

going through it, people either lean in or they lean out. And some people lean out, which means they run away. And you're surprised by that. And you're like, what the fuck? I mean, that guy was at every champagne party we threw in Paris. And now and now he's like i've heard from the dude in three years like that's strange right um but he probably has his own motivate either covering his own ass or maybe he's one of these people that has a tremendous sense of betrayal and it's just so pissed still and hurt we have to i mean i have to be receptive to that um but then they're the ones who lean in right and and most of those people receptive to that. But then there are the ones who lean in, right? And most of those people don't surprise you.

But then there are others that lean in and they surprise you. Like, wow, I didn't know you had my back like that. And so you get surprised on both sides. And at the end of it all, dude, you look around and you're like, all right, these people are here. These are the people that are going to ride anything out with me. Like, these people are the people that are going to ride anything out with me, which is kind of cool and refreshing for me to really know, right? If you're loading up a bus with all your most loyal, closest friends, I fucking know who's on that bus now. Yeah, you know now. At this point.

And for 20 years, you know, there was just a bunch of chumps that that that they were on that bus but you know as soon as as soon as the the somebody changed the music they hopped off and so it takes adversity yeah to illuminate that there's no other way and until you test them you really don't know yeah adversity I remember this is a funny quote we were this is a postal thing but we were once i was at a i don't remember the postmaster general's name his name at the time but we we did a this is totally unrelated but you said adversity sort of reminded me he was introducing me at this thing and he wanted to say you know introducing me he's

overcome great adversity he says his lads he's overcome great adversity. He says, Lance, he's overcome great diversity. And I'm thinking, Jesus, white kid from Plano. I didn't overcome shit when it came to diversity. Diversity. Whoops. Raising kids. We both have children, and obviously when you're raising a kid, you're teaching them about life.

You're trying to set an example. Yep. Um, did you have to sit them down and explain what was going on? Um. How old were your youngest at the time? Oh, and, uh, the youngest were one and two. Whoa. Yeah.

So you didn't have to explain. So I have three kids with my ex-wife, Kristen, and Luke is now 16 and twin girls that are 14. And then I have a six and a five-year-old with Anna. And by the way, it's the craziest blended family you've ever seen. Like those five kids are five siblings. It's the most beautiful thing.'ve ever seen. Those five kids are five siblings. It's the most beautiful thing. And Anna and Kristen are like sisters. I got a great situation.

That's awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Takes a lot of work, or took a lot of work to get to this place, but it's awesome. And Kristen, to her credit, who I was married to during this ugly period, and who obviously would have known everything, um, has been great. Whether it's, whether it's conversation she's had with our older children while they're at her house or just, just helping massage this thing. But I'm still sitting down with my kids. I mean, our whole, you know, I go to therapy,

Anna goes, we all go to them, the kids go, So we still sit down and just kind of work this out, dude. This is not, this is a complicated thing. And the crazy thing is my older kids have kind of gotten through it. The six and the five-year-old will come into it, right? I mean, the internet and, you know, fucking Google, Wikipedia, you name it it they're gonna they will they will grow into this like at some point my six-year-old boy who's just a fanatical athlete and everything is sports and sports and sports i mean i mean i hear his him and his friends talk about tom brady and one of his friends is like oh he's a cheater my son loves tom brady it's like oh he's a cheater i'm like it ain't gonna be long before before Max Armstrong is at school. And some kid

in another class goes, isn't your dad that cheater? Like, he's going to be like, what? Like, he doesn't know that. But so he's going to grow into that. So that conversation will then be had at that time. It's tough to have it with a six-year-old today. But so I know that's coming, right? And so, but I have the experience of having dealt with it with a 16-year-old boy who at the time was 13 and still dealing with it with those guys. And, you know, so far, I mean, I think we've been super proactive. Probably, you know, Anna and Kristen

probably think I should have been more proactive, but I think that's in a good spot. So you have group therapy sessions where you just discuss? So I've sat with all three kids, the older kids, and it's just sort of free for all. Wow. Yeah. And they had no idea until the scandal broke. Yep.

And what was their reaction? You know, the girls, they were nine. So they were still, they were young. I mean, a nine-year-old girl, they really didn't have a reaction. Luke was, you know, was a 13-year-old boy. No, so they were 11. So Luke was 13, they were 11. They still sort of were immune to it. You know, he was, I mean, he watched, when he watched Oprah, because it aired three or four days later, I had sort of fled to Hawaii. I mean, he called me, because I talked about Luke on her show, with the whole idea that I know he's defending me at school. I mean, there was enough smoke that people were going, dude, your dad's a doper, et cetera. And he was defending me.

And my point to Oprah was that at this point, I get to say to Luke, stop defending me. You don't need to defend me anymore. Right. It's true. And so he watched that, which is probably a heavy moment for, for him. It would have been awful watching it with him. Um, but he called me and said, I, I understand. And, and I love you. And, and, uh, but we still, I mean, that was three years ago. We still have to talk about these things, man. How often? Not often. But it still occasionally comes up,

especially if you're talking about the importance of being honest and truthful and having character. Yeah. And he's an athlete. I mean, look, that's the only thing that I will say. I mean, I don't want ideal. My son's huge, 6'3", 230 pounds, plays offensive line. Well, that's good.

Not too many people would be fucking with him. Yeah, I think he's good there, but he's also a real sweet guy. He's not in anybody's face. a real sweet guy like he's not he's not he's not in anybody's face um but i don't want him to say his football passion or career would call it what you will ends up you know at a high level i mean i don't want him in a messy spot where he's got to make tough choices right in fact i don't want that at all and football is a sport where you have to make tough choices i mean i'm not a football player but i can yeah i have i can imagine i have friends that are yeah i can imagine yeah that's i mean and

it's also open and it's also brought up by coaches it's also brought up by trainers i mean it's just uh it's a part of the game as much as i'm sure it is in cycling. Yeah. That had to be just, it's just had to like be chewing you apart when you know that your kid's defending you and you know it's going to come out. You know he's having these conversations at school and he's like, my dad's not a cheater. Yeah. Well, we didn't know it was going to come out. I mean, even when the Vitsky was investigating, I mean, that case went away. So we thought at that point, maybe we're done.

And it didn't. I mean, USADA picked up the investigation, and then based on all his work, they picked it up, and then it came out. But, man, it happened fast. Like it, it was seemingly like instantaneous, man. Did it surprise you? Um, yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, I guess it's, yeah, it surprised me, but shit, anybody would have been surprised, I suppose.

And it was just surreal, you know, have been surprised, I suppose. And it was just surreal, you know, the way it all came out. And in the method at which they sort of advertised the findings, you know, it was, and there was a whole, to their credit, I mean, there was a strategy on their end. So let's take Nowitzki's work. Let's do some additional investigations. Let's package it in with something they called the reasoned decision. And then let's go out and talk about it all over the place. Like that was kind of unbelievable to me. Why do you think they spent so much time and resources going after you as opposed to all the other people who've won?

Well, they needed a landmark case. I think there's plenty of people that, and I'm just guessing. This is not based on any proof. And I've had conversations with USADA. I mean, I think we're still getting to the point where we can do stuff together or have a conversation. So I'm not trying to criticize them. I mean, I think there ought to be a place for them. But I think there's also realistic, I mean, in reality, there are people that think they're ineffective. They think they spend 10 or 20 or 50, whatever the number is, millions of dollars a year, and they don't catch anybody, right?

I mean, if you look at the amount of positives it must be you know less than one percent well if i told you well joe we're all good man it's less than one percent testing positive you would you would right you think that right yeah so they needed they needed a landmark case to say no we are effective and here it is um and i think also from a legal perspective, it sets some legal precedents for them that they can use going forward in other cases with future cases. And then you add in just a ginormous story that was guaranteed to get a lot of press. that was guaranteed to get a lot of press.

But it still pains me to, look, I know what went on. We all know what went on. But I can't take, when I hear that this program or this particular athlete being me was the greatest fraud in the history of sport, you know, I can't. That's just not true, right? And then when you hear that our, the, the, our team's doping program was the most sophisticated program in the history of sport. Well, we also know that's not true. Right. Um, so those are, and then, and then the final one,

which is really, I think, bothered a lot of people that, that this person being me forced young impressionable young men to put dangerous substances into their body. Right. That just is not true. And, uh, but if I heard somebody, if somebody said that about one of my, my son's friends, I would be pissed off too. Like I'd be like, dude, screw that guy. Right. But we all made our own choices we were all grown men uh they were bad choices right some most would say we would say um but but there was no forcing to do that what is it like now like in uh i mean i don't want to get too personal but your personal life like people value honesty it's one of the most important things in friends and lovers.

When you have this thing where you're on video over and over and over and over and over and over again, being deceptive over and over again, defending yourself when you it's. And then you come out and say it's all a lie. And so this is like database of lying. Like, what is it like? Like trying to get people to trust you? Right. Hey, man, this is what I talked about in the beginning is that road is – that is a never-ending path. I will be walking that walk the rest of my life. And there are a lot of people that will say, uh-uh, I'm never trusting this guy ever again. I will be walking that walk the rest of my life. And there are a lot of people that'll say,

uh-uh, I'm never trusting this guy ever again. I don't care. I don't care how apologetic or contrite he is. I'm done. But that's, that's the, the, the key is that I have to be committed to that path. Right. And so I can walk that walk and, and, and take each case individually and one on one. But talk about endurance. We've talked about endurance, that will be the longest, the longest walk or the longest journey of my life. Do you have a code that you follow now? I mean, have you imposed like a stringent set of rules on yourself? Where like you know, like because of this history, you can't lie about anything ever? No, I mean, I haven't thought, I mean, I guess the answer is no, because I haven't, there's not been a, you know, sort of a new mission statement or sort of this key, but, but I mean, life was pretty transparent anyways before that. But I mean, there was obviously, there was the huge deception.

But it's not as if, you know, there's anything crazy out there outside of that. Right. Yeah. But I mean, you know, it's just that's a a big thing with people you know to be able to trust their friends or be able to trust their boyfriend or girlfriend you know yep for sure what what is life like for lance armstrong now like is uh is everything calmed down to the point where the stress is minimized except for the lawsuit? Yeah. As I said a second ago, it's just simple, man. I mean, I still love to work out.

So I train every day. What do you do? I primarily run, and then I'll do a little bit of gym work, and then I'll ride occasionally, although very rarely. Very rarely get on a bike. Why is that? I just, it takes too, very rarely get on a bike. Why is that? I just, it takes too much time and it's just. It takes too much time?

I mean, you could run for an hour. Oh, I see. If you do a hard run for an hour, you got to go ride for three hours. Right. So that's two more hours that you, unless you got to get all the shit on and go out and deal with traffic. But does it psychologically fuck with you when you get on a bike it's a it's i mean i i have some bitterness there towards what we've talked about primarily in and around the economy of it how it was right and now everybody's like no no no we're out or we don't

right we're gonna you know so that's that's but that's that's on me i gotta work that out and that's not that's not their fault. That's my fault. So there's some of that, and it's nice to do. I love to run. I mean, I grew up, I ran before I rode. So it's nice to go into something where I can still get, I mean, I view working out, you probably view it the same way. It's almost like a therapy.

Like you're in there, you're suffering. You're just working shit out, right? And that's what I do when I work out or go for a long run. So I do that. I joke. I mean, we have five kids. They're in four different schools. So I'm like an Uber driver for my kids.

Traffic in Austin is not like L.A., but it's bad now. It's getting bad now. Dude. And so all I do is drive my kids around. Too many people talk about how great Austin is. That's what happened. Right. But they didn't build that city 50 years ago to accommodate 2 million people.

No. And then I play a lot of golf, which is why we're going to end this podcast a little bit. So I can go play Riviera today, man. Don't mess with my tea time. I don't want to mess with your tea time. I appreciate your time very much, man. I appreciate you doing this. We're already done?

We can keep going. Want to keep going? I don't know if Higgs is here yet. I'm sure he's here. Someone's calling me. No, it's not him. And then you got the Hunter book. We got to talk a little bit about Hunter.

Yeah, definitely. I didn't know you were a fan until I saw your, maybe Bill Burr, retweeted maybe your tweet that said, if there's one person that's dead that I could meet today or was alive, it would be Hunter. Yeah, it was an Instagram post that I made about one of his incredible quotes. It was about heroes. It was particularly poignant. It was after Ronda Rousey got knocked out that I posted it, It was after Ronda Rousey got knocked out that I posted it,

that people, they love the idea of someone who is like a superhuman person, like someone who's a legend, someone who can defy the odds because it gives them hope in this crazy world of boredom and cubicles. I'm doing a shitty job of paraphrasing it, but it's a fantastic quote. And then you got a hold of me about it and had that incredible book sent to me when Hunter was running for sheriff of Aspen. Yep, yep. So he, yeah, he just, you know, he kind of ruled the valley. I mean, he lived down in Woody Creek, but the whole valley was,

the Roaring Fork Valley was kind of his domain. And he was just and his best friend was was our longtime sheriff he was the sheriff for 26 years bob browdus who's a great friend of mine uh his under sheriff is probably my best bud there a guy named by the name of joe de salvo so how a kid from brooklyn ends up in aspen is now the sheriff he's on his second term so joey and bob were hunter's best buddies i mean fucking crazy stories and i and and not to toot my own horn but then bob is is the sweetest guy he was he's the guy that was sheriff for 26 years he says to me one day he says he calls me champ which is also funny

he says champ he says uh did you ever meet hunter and i said no i never met him and he pauses for a long time and he goes man he would have loved you and i was i took that was like fucking hey that is a compliment right there that is a compliment i mean hunter was was was nuts and in a lot of ways but i know i mean he had such a diverse group of friends whether it's it's whether it was our sheriff or whether it was lyle lovett or whether it was Johnny Depp or whether it was Doug Brinkley I mean just just this diverse group of fucking artists and thinkers and lawmen and and druggies and dude gnarly I mean he'd go out to the shit they did was just I probably can't even talk about it I'm sure you can he's

dead it's fine some of the people are still alive. They're still alive. But we were talking before the podcast about his ritual, before he would write. So, yeah. Super human. So you read that, and for those listening, you just Google, you know, Hunter Thompson's daily regime, and it'll come up. I think Esquire wrote it. And the shit starts at, like, what is he? He wakes up at, like, 3 in the afternoon, right?

Right. And just, you've got to go read it. I mean, it's unbelievable. So I thought, this is so unreal, it ain't true. So I called Joey, our sheriff, and I said, dude, have you seen this? And he says, yeah. I said, that's not real.

You know what he said? He said, that isn't enough. He said, that's light. Can you believe? Go read it, people. And then imagine that that didn't quite get there. Well, Jamie, why don't you find it? Because it's kind of hilarious.

We could actually read it on the air. Dude. Yeah. He had a strong tolerance for substances. And I don't think he ever went without. I mean, it's just he wasn't interested. No. No. Yeah. I mean, that's just he wasn't interested. No. No.

Yeah. I mean, that was the life that he was interested in. He was interested in just getting fucked up and having a great time and writing about shit and pontificating on the demise of civilization. But, you know, I don't know if that's what caught up to him, but. It definitely did. Yeah. I mean, how could you. Did you ever see the late appearances? I have a really hard time watching these later

appearances like we would do like the Conan O'Brien show and you could understand a word he was saying like here you can see it right here 3 p.m. rise 3 5 shivers Riga with morning papers Dunills, 345, cocaine, 350, another glass of Chivas, another Dunhill, 405, first cup of coffee, Dunhill. Reminder, this is PM. Yes, PM. First cup of coffee. 415, cocaine, 416, orange juice, Dunhill, 430, cocaine, 454, cocaine, 505, cocaine,

511, coffee, Dunhills, 530, more ice in the Chivas, 545, cocaine, 5.11, coffee, Dunhills, 5.30, more ice in the Chivas, 5.45, cocaine, etc., etc. 6 p.m., grass to take the edge off the day. Three hours he's been awake and been stressful. 7 o'clock, Woody Creek Tavern for lunch with Heineken, two margaritas, coleslaw, taco salad, double order, fried onion rings, carrot cake, ice cream, a bean fritter, Dunn Hills, another Heineken, cocaine, and for the ride home, a snow cone, a glass of shredded ice over, which is poured, three or four jiggers of Chivas. God damn it. Nine, start snowding cocaine seriously.

Now it got serious. Ten, drops acid. 11, chartreuse, cocaine, grass. 11.30, cocaine, et cetera, et cetera. Midnight, Hunter S. Thompson is ready to write. That is... And then it keeps going on. 12.05 to 6 a.m., chartreuse, cocaine, grass,

Chivas, coffee, Heineken, clove cigarettes, grapefruit, Dunhill's, orangeivas, coffee, Heineken, clove cigarettes, grapefruit, Dunhill's, orange juice, gin, continuous pornographic movies. Six, in the hot tub, champagne, dove bars, fettuccine Alfredo, 8 a.m., halcyon. Is that how you say it? Yeah, halcyon. That's the first. That was before Ambien.

Yeah. 8.20, Halcyon. That's the first, that was before Ambien. Yeah, 820 sleep. Wow. Jesus Christ. So I asked these guys, I asked the sheriffs, I'm like, that shit's not real. Yeah, there's the quote that I put, myths and legends die hard in America. We love them for the extra dimension they provide,

the illusion of near infinite possibility to erase the narrow confines of most men's reality. Weird heroes and mold-breaking champions exist as proof to those who need it that the tyranny of the rat race is not yet final. I mean, isn't that... I mean, that applies to you, too, dude. I understand that.

Yeah, it applies to your life. Yeah. I mean, and that's part of the reason, I'm sure, why some people are pissed at you. It's like you were a legend with a caveat. Yep. Yeah. I mean, the story in its totality, right?

If I was just a cyclist, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But the cancer part of the story, right, is what everybody – nobody could relate to cycling. They got to figure it out. They started to watch it. Cool, they won again. Right. The cancer part of it, everybody can relate to cycling they got to figure it out they started to watch it like cool he won again right the cancer part of it everybody can relate to right i mean every everybody has either had the disease themselves or lost a loved one or had a loved one or friend or neighbor affected by it so they're like all right i'm in like that that's some bullshit right there that disease so i and they rallied around that and that's you know that's that's why

that fall came swift and hard man well there's parallels in life when it comes to this story in a lot of ways because everything is kind of messy you know the the reality versus the narrative it's always messy yeah and there's so many variables that don't get discussed and there's so many aspects of it that they're flexible and they move around. Yeah. I mean, more and more now. I mean, the transparency we see in our society today, whether it's politicians or politics or sports or entertainment. I mean, dude, imagine, like I always say, like, you know, if I give you three names that were alive today, like Sinatra, we just, you know, just had celebrated his 100th birthday. If you took Sinatra, JFK, and Michael Jordan, and they were at their peak today.

TMZ alone. Would be nuking people. Yeah. And so it's just, we're just getting deeper and deeper into that yeah it's and i think this is just there's no still the beginning yeah for sure well i think what's going on with technology too is we're seeing this very obvious trend that the boundaries between people and thoughts and ideas and reality and facts they're getting smaller and smaller and smaller to the point where they're going to be erased.

And I don't know how that's going to happen, but I think it's going to happen with something that connects us in a much more personal way than peripheral devices like laptops or phones. I think there's going to be some technology that connects us body to body, whether it's some sort of a neural implant or something along those lines. Damn. I really do. I think it's some sort of a neural implant or something along those lines. Damn. I really do. I think it's on inevitable Yeah, I mean the symbiotic relationship that we have with with cell phones right now is undeniable I leave my phone like you you dropped your phone. You're like fuck. Where's my phone? My phone's broken. Fuck fuck fuck. No here. Yeah

Yeah, I mean I dropped it so I did drop my phone, but I'm like I'm like fucking scratching myself Yeah, I haven't had the phone for like two or three hours. Dude, that ain't good. No, it's not good. I leave my phone sometimes in the car when I go do the podcast, and I don't realize that I left it. And I'll be in the middle of a great podcast, but like, fuck, my phone's not here. I'm not even going to use it. It's out there.

I don't touch it. But the fact that it's not physically like, I want it right there. Dude, imagine if you're on here and you got some guests on and you're texting them. The guests would be like, what the fuck? I come all the way over here to this godforsaken valley and that LA

traffic and the guy's on his phone? I have had people that are guests that start checking their Twitter. Like Neil Brennan will start checking his Twitter in the middle of the pocket. What the fuck are you doing? I want to see what people are saying about it. Talk to them afterwards. Just flip your phone over. You don't let people call in and ask questions? Or tweet and ask questions? We've done that before, but the problem is that people that want to do it are usually

trolls. Yeah, some of those might be fun. If I wanted that kind of a show, I would do an all call-in show, which I think would be fun. If I wanted that kind of a show, I would do an all-call-in show. I did a talk a couple months ago in Denver, and there were 600 people. And it was kind of a moderated Q&A, and then the audience was allowed to ask questions. And people were cool. They were asking questions. And the moderator says, and there's a line to get to the mic to ask questions.

And the guy says, not that this lady, I'm not calling her a troll, but the guy says, is anybody in line really pissed at Lance and want to ask a question? This lady in the back, she's like, me. She comes trucking up there. And so, you know, I was like, this is going to be super interesting. Like, what the hell is she going to ask me? How am I going to answer it? So I, you know, maybe I like a challenge, but.

You definitely like a challenge. I think you're just bored. In between golf games, you want to spar with somebody verbally. Hey, ask Kiggs if my phone got fixed. Did he text you? Let me see. He's probably out there. I looked when I went to go to the bathroom.

Ha, cool, thanks. That's the last thing he said. Here, I'll text him right now. You out there? Who says ha, cool, thanks? He did the last thing he said. Here, I'll text him right now. You out there? Who says ha, cool, thanks? He did. Because I said you wanted Advil. I said Lance would like you to bring Advil.

He says ha, cool, thanks. And I said, you out there? Yeah. It was his birthday last night. So we went out to dinner and just got way too drunk. It happens. it happens um what we were talking about about technology though about uh bringing people closer together and and this the the fact that there's gonna i mean i really think there's gonna be no secrets i don't think anybody's gonna

have secrets from anybody in the future right i think um you kind of you caught like the wave of this trend before it got even crazier than it I mean you caught that wave and even in 2012 the comparison between 2012 and 2015 it's like it's ramped up considerably sure and it'll continue to do that yeah yes there's no getting around it right yeah is that good is that good thing? Or is it just what it is? Yeah. You and I are not going to stop it, so it's inevitable. No one is.

Nobody's. I think it's going to not just, it's just, one of the things that's going to happen is it's not going to just be celebrities. It's not going to be just people like you, people like Michael Jordan or whoever. Right. It's going to be everybody. Right. It's going to be, if you want to find out anything about Jamie, it's going to be all on the table. Maybe Jamie was one of those Ashley Madison clients.

He could have been. Maybe Novitski was. Well, there have been some fucking ridiculous people that were that wound up killing themselves, like preachers and shit like that, that it was found out. But how dumb do you have to be to think that that's going to be secure? You're going to go on some dating site. I mean,

come on, man. That's insane. But, you know, what kind of a fucking weirdo wants to find out about people that were on the dating site? Like, well,

what do you give a shit? Leave him alone. Exactly. But that's not the world we live in, right? I got to take a leak again. Do you? Well, let's end this fucking thing. Let's end it. Yeah, we're done. I think we. Exactly. But that's not the world we live in, right? I gotta take a leak again. Do you? Well, let's end this

fucking thing. Well, let's end it. Yeah, we're done. I think we're done. It's 1120. I'm supposed to tee off at 1130, but... Were you?

Really? Yeah, but I'm gonna meet him out there. It's all good. It's all good, man. Well, thank you, Lance. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Thanks for doing this. And thanks for listening, whoever. Hopefully somebody listened. A lot of people listened, I'm sure. Cool. All right.

That's it. Bye, everybody. Bye.