The Joe Rogan Experience - #854 - Louie Simmons

Episode Date: September 30, 2016

Louie Simmons is an American powerlifter and strength coach. He is noted for owning a private powerlifting gym, Westside Barbell; developing the 'Westside Barbell' method of training and applying it to powerlifting and other sports; and inventing several pieces of strength training equipment.

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night! All day! Alright, we're live. Thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad you're here, Jim. Yeah, you've got a very interesting setup.

And I've talked to quite a few people who've worked with you in your unconventional ways. And you've got a great reputation. Just so you know. Yeah. They think it's unconventional, but it's scientific. Scientific. Well, that reverse hyper, that machine

that you created, I've talked about that a hundred times on my podcast. That thing has done wonders for my back and it's just a genius product. You alright? It's a genius product. How did you invent that thing? I invented it out of necessity. I broke my lower back in 1973.

You invented that thing in 73? Well, I started the exercise. Actually, about 74 I started the exercise. I broke my lower back in 73 and I was on crutches for 10 months and no one was helping me. So I just come out. I do back extensions where you hook your ankles and raise your upper body.

But that would kill my back. So I thought, well, if I did it in reverse. So I jumped up on a platform, dropped my legs, raised them up, would kill my back. So I thought, well, if I did it in reverse. So I jumped up on a platform, dropped my legs, raised them up, pumped up my back, didn't hurt. And that was the beginning stages of it. And then years later, we've always been a private gym. We're not open to the public. So it was never out in the public. And then I finally made a machine years later and got my first patent in 1994. How is it that no one knows about that thing?

I mean, how is it that it's not a gigantic success? I mean, it's... Well, we're actually, so we sell a little bit over 100 a month, 100 machines a month. Well, I hope I've sold some of them for you. Oh, you have. I want to thank you for that. And that's the way, you know, it's like, you know, like sex, once you have it, you got to keep it.

Yeah, I don't remember how I heard about it. I don't remember who initially told me about it, but I was having some disc issues, and they all want to cut you open, man. That's right. You go to doctors, they all want to fuse discs and cut you open, and there's all this talk, and I was like, wow, there's got to be another way.

So then I started researching stuff, and I don't remember how I came upon the reverse hyper, but I remember as soon as I saw it, I went, wow, that's a genius idea. Because you're just, the idea is, right, that when you're getting a bulging disc, it's because things are getting compressed. So just pull them apart. Right. We've got another machine, a bell squat machine.

We use it for grappling. We actually fight in there. And it's not a reverse hyper, but it's a traction device as well. So we can do an enormous amount of work, and at the same time, it's restoration. So what is the other one called? It's called a bell squat machine. Bell squat. It puts you in a platform with a belt around your waist with maybe 100, 200, 300 pounds,

and then we grapple or we shadow spar or you can do anything. We actually lift weights, and we use an enormous amount of weights. We make 2,000 pounds in it. But while it's building up your glutes and all the lower body, it's traction out your spine, but the restoration is tremendous. The next day, you don't even know you worked out, but you've done thousands of pounds of work,

and that's why I've got the world's strongest gym. Wow. So you started out as a powerlifter? Started out as a powerlifter. I started Olympic lifting when I was 14, and then I went to my first power meet in 1966 and saw guys was really built, never went back to Olympic lifting again.

And then power lifted all my life. Made top 10 for 34 years. That's why I'm so beat up. But I love the sport. I love strength and power. I also love, if it's in time or weights, I love it. Something you can measure. It's good to be, I don't like to work in football

because I'd average three-tenths off 12 linemen going in the NFL. Some win the NFL, some didn't. So you just never know. But I like just basic things, statistics, you know. How strong are you? How fast are you? Now, for the person who doesn't understand this, what is the difference between powerlifting and Olympic lifting? Powerlifting, you bench squat and deadlift.

And Olympic lifting, you clean, jerk, and snatch. Powerlifting is an absolute strength sport. The weight can be very, very slow. And Olympic lifting, because like in a clean, you have two poles, front squat and a jerk. Whatever your weakest at, that's what you're limited at. But that's a speed strength sport. And that means velocity.

Speed strength is intermediate velocity. My sport is slow velocity. And then if you jump, that's explosive um that's explosive power and that's measured in fast velocities if you want to build explosive power you jump and how did you get involved with working with fighters because i know you work with matt brown and you worked with a bunch of guys well not a bunch kevin randleman kevin randman. The star of Kevin Randleman. And trained Kevin. And I was experimenting. First off, I thought I was afraid I was going to hurt the guy. Then I found out you can't hurt these guys.

You know, they were hurting me. But that's how it started. It was fun. And back when Kevin, you know, was champion. I don't know when he was. You probably know when he was. Probably around 2000. Yeah, I was somewhere in that range.

Somewhere around there. He was the UFC heavyweight champ. I know. Tried to get, you know buddy, Mark Coleman, down here. And I never could get Mark down here. I went to his house twice. I thought he was going to kick my ass. I got him all psyched up, and he starts staring me down and rocking back and forth.

Holy shit. And then I tried to calm him down to get the hell out of there. And then he said he wanted to talk to me again about a month or so ago. Oh, my God. So I go back up there. Same thing happened then i asked kevin i said kevin why he wanted to come down he said what he said he'd have to train you know i train optimally i don't train i'm smart to train optimally you know you throw you know you can't punch yourself out in the first round you train everything optimally it's not minimal not maximal it's optimal so

when you would take a guy like kevinman, like a stud athlete like that, how would you assess what optimum is for a guy like that? Well, he was the first guy I ever had. You know what a freak he was. Tom works with a lot of guys right now. And Kevin was a freak. You saw Kevin. But we do a lot of sled work, upper body and lower body,

and a lot of dumbbells for time. Like him and I, he was so upset one time. We tied. I did 107 reps with 75-pound dumbbells and five minutes on stability ball, and he tied me. Wow. We both did 107 reps. He was highly upset.

He's one of the best athletes ever in the sport. Oh, no kidding. Super explosive. Did he win the UFC heavyweight title? Yes. I know he fought Boss Rutten, and I think he lost the title to Boss Rutten. It was a real controversial decision because Boss was hitting him off his back. He broke Boss's nose, is that right?

I'm sure, yeah. Nose breaks are pretty common. They happen almost every fight. Yeah. At least some sort of break. Almost every fighter has some kind of a deviated septum. Well, you see how fighting is now. Mark was Pride Champ and UFC Champ, but fighting's changed now.

You know that. Every week, you're there. I'm only at home in my recliner watching it. So it's so much more sophisticated. I love MMA because it's highly technical. A lot of people, you hear people boo still when they get on the ground. I love the ground game. I love the think.

You have to think. It's definitely very technical. Well, what's interesting, too, is that there's all these different approaches to strength and conditioning. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because one of the things that I had seen was Matt working out with you and your guys. And he was doing all kinds of crazy stuff. When you devise a plan for an athlete like a Matt Brown or someone like that, do you work with them first and try to figure out what they're capable of and then think about what their style is?

Obviously, you're going to have a different need if you're a striker versus a grappler. Well, one thing we do, we try to get them more in a condition to do five-minute rounds and recover in one minute. When I worked, everything was five minutes and a minute recovery. Some guys I'd run through eight rounds. A lot of guys that was able to do that. I mean, pretty good fighters, you know, 13 wins in pro fights, stuff like that. So just word of recovery.

I want to maximize the amount of work I can do in five minutes and then be able to recover in one minute and do it again repeatedly. That's all I ever did, work on five-minute intervals. So did you work with guys who use heart rate monitors? How did you decide what to have them do? I've never done any of that. Really, never? No, my friend John Saylor, he's got Shinikai Jiu-Jitsu.

He's basically started almost really the first MMA school in America, if you think about it, because he was Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Samba, but also striking. And he started in 1985. Oh, wow. And he does everything by heart rate, where we do things by percentages. Like I said, we train by rates of velocity. Speed, strength, you train 75% to 85%. He would do heart rates like that.

And, like, if you and I would grapple, if we could talk to each other would do heart rates like that and like if you and i would grapple if we could talk to each other for a half hour that'd be optimal you know mean you could talk while we're doing it that's an optimal heart rate that way so he kept track of heart rates kind of basically how we do percentage of one rep max so meaning that it's optimal if you could still talk while you're doing the exercise you're training optimally you know you're not optimal if you could still talk while you're doing the exercise you're training optimally you know you're not right like you know that's how i would be you know so but if you're gonna fight like if you're in a fight and it's a very high paced fight it's very likely that you're gonna achieve much higher rates of heart rate you're gonna be much more exhausted that's right but see that would

be optimal that's how we train our speed day like today for squatting and deadlifting is optimal they do um 25 squats at one weight and for speed strength acceleration and 20 deadlifts and then the other day is max effort and that's what you're talking about where you go all out and around someone's pushing you you know they're trying to take you out so you got to fight back so uh it would see it always changes you can't do the same thing it's called law of accommodation if you and i uh if you and i uh grappled at the same rate all the time i would actually catch up to you you know so you'd have to be able to you know maximize your potential and run me in the dirt so uh that's why you gotta have two different days you know you can't just do the same type of work all the time i think that's where a lot of fighters go wrong they get where they pace yourself too much you

see that with full fighters. Old fighters cover up. And I watch fights all my life from Roberto Duran to Muhammad. I've watched them all. I'm sure you've got to be a big fight fan. And you just see how some people get in a scheduled amount of work per round and that's when you can beat them.

In other words, you know, I'm going to make you go at my pace, not you go at my pace. I'm going to follow your pace. I'm going to make you go at my pace, not you go at my pace. I'm going to follow your pace. I'm going to make you go at mine. So varying the intensity of the training, varying how you do your training, you think that's very important? Very important. It has to change all the time.

So does it have to change all the time because the body just adapts and gets efficient? That's right. That's what I say. That's what the law of accommodation is. You adapt to a training load or stimulus, and if you don't change it, you get no better. You actually go backwards. So you constantly got to change these stimulus. Tom does a lot of stuff with war barrels.

We push war barrels around for half a mile running, sometimes heavier weight walking. Getting a belt squat is very grueling. And then just maximal strength, which is simple things like deadlifts, good mornings. We do a lot of stuff holding the bars in their elbows. Tom hasn't done a lot of that because it's almost like, you know, grappling up,

pummeling. And then other times, you know, you've got to do quick stuff. So quicker pace stuff. So, you know, that's how fights are. They're never one pace.

Now, how do you, like, create a schedule? Like, say if you're working with a guy and you, you know. We don't believe in schedule. You don't believe in it? No, even my guys,

I have the strongest gym in the world, spoke about 140 all-time world records at breakfast and time can verify at breakfast in the morning at six o'clock 6 30 we decide what we're going to do that day because he strengths measured in time it's not measured in weight it's measured in time mero talked about velocities and uh so we just pick an exercise. Like for you, if we did a real low box squat and it takes longer than squatting 800 pounds, you're going to squat 800 pounds. You choke me out, after a while

I'm going to tap. Or if we run, after a while I'm going to run out of oxygen and I'm going to quit. Same thing for strength. You can only strain so long. So as long as you strain at least that length of time or longer, you're going to break a classical lift, a squat bench or deadlift. I'm not totally sure I understand what you're saying. Why do you have different opponents?

When you grapple, you're going to have different opponents, big ones, small ones, fast ones, slow ones, left hand, right hand. Right. And so you adapt to all different situations. That's what we do. As long as our training is harder than a contest, we're going to break records. I took a gentleman not long ago, 800-pound squad at 165, top in the world right now, 1880 total, top in the world.

I promised him one year he'd break the world record. In less than a year, he scored an 890-pound world record, a total of 2,080. And we just did it systematically. We run everything in ways. Three, for speed, we work on speed, strength, acceleration. And so it goes. It's basically 75, 80, 85%. And then on the fourth week, we went back and started over.

We changed the bar. So that way, by changing a safety squat bar, if you know what that is, or even a front squat, we changed the length of the spine, you know, without really, you know, you only got one length of the spine, you know, without really, you know, you only got one length of the spine, but we do it systematically by using different bars. So your brain has to now think differently because it's got a, the bar from where it sits on top of your back to your low back is different. So it has to adapt to that every three weeks.

So by changing bars and changing, like, the type of workouts you do, it forces your body to adapt to all sorts of different loads, all sorts of different ways of standing, all sorts of different outputs. Yeah, we change the leverages, constantly change the leverages. And where the bar has to keep going the same. Like your car, I talk about this all the time. If you look at your car, a normal car, it shifts at 2,500 RPMs every time it shifts gears. Well, that's optimal horsepower for that car

and so we train it to a certain percentage where the bar speed is optimal for for explosive power or if we want you know it's 30 40 percent um like if i want to take you down i'd work on 30 40 weights or want to muscle you i'd work on 75 to 85 percent weights so that'd be string speed if i had to really grind you out that's's why we've got to make you stronger. You know how strong grapplers are. And so we work on all different velocities of strength. Inside of one week, and then instead of doing high repetitions, like a person like you, let's say your lower back is susceptible to injury, you might have 600-pound legs but only a 450-pound lower back.

So we work individual individual muscle groups single joint activity like the reverse hyper works your low back hamstrings and spinal rectus right we got a special machine that works the hamstrings we got all these different apparatuses that work different parts of your body so we don't have any muscle imbalances like mma if you've got no stand up i'm going to stand up with you you've got no grappling i'm going to take you you know so wherever you will so we work on all these weaknesses have balances so we have constant balance of our strengths and abilities and work capacities and so because you don't have a schedule and because you decide what you're going to do that day do you just kind of assess like how your athletes are performing and what what they're what they're capable of doing given each individual day

we have records on all kind of things like pen deadlifts or box deadlifts or some kind of squad and what they're capable of doing given each individual day. We have records on all kinds of things like pen deadlifts or box deadlifts or some kind of squat or some kind of bench. Well, they break the entire gym. Now, there's only maybe 15 guys. It's a private gym. But you break the record over 90% of the time. You're in, you're out. So why did you decide to have a private gym?

How come you don't open this up? I can't stand commercial gyms. I can't stand to be around people that don't. If you're a real fighter, you don't want to be around a bunch of fags, right? I mean, I can't stand it. I can't stand to go in a commercial gym. I can't stand it. I just got out.

I'll leave in five minutes. Because they're not working out hard enough? They're not working out hard. They don't know what the hell they're doing. They're looking in the mirrors, looking at girls' ass and shit like that. I like ass, but when I'm in a gym, I want to work out. Then I don't know what the hell they're doing. You're looking in the mirrors, looking at girls' ass and shit like that. I like ass, but I'm a gym I want to work out. Then I go look at the ass. So you just decided to set up this

gym. We should do like a little tour of the gym at the end of this. Iron sharpens iron. You know that. Right. So if you run with a limb, you develop a limb. So don't hang around people like that. And how long have you had this gym for? Well, I've had a gym. I just started training by myself. I had a top toe in the world in 1973 for a while until I broke my back. But I've had a gym. I started training by myself. I had a top-toned world in 1973 for a while until I broke my back.

But I've had a gym with training partners since 1976. I got my first training partner in 1976. It's always been private. It was in my basement. It went to my garage. Then we had to start getting bigger and bigger. And bigger is not better, but we had to get bigger because we started to attract a lot of people that were good. I mean, they're selected to come here, like anybody else.

So they just pay a membership fee or something like that? I pay everything. You pay everything? Yeah. How do you keep this place running? This business right here. Oh, selling books and videos? Selling books and machines.

I don't know. I've got like 11 or 13 patents. Oh, interesting. My money comes from royalties. We put my name on different companies. That's really interesting. So it's like almost the gym itself doesn't bring in any profit. It's just reputation.

It costs me probably, I guess, 50 grand a year. Wow. Wouldn't you say? 55. 55,000 a year. The gym costs me 55,000 a year. Wow. But it's one of the most respected places in the world.

Yeah. There's no sign. It's the most famous gym. There's no sign. You don't need a sign. Yeah, there's no sign. It's the most famous gym. There's no sign. You don't need a sign. Yeah, we're pulling in here like, where the fuck is this place? That's what you like? Yeah.

Wow, that's interesting. Well, that's about as hardcore as it gets. It would choke Linda Lovelace. There's a lot of people like, who the fuck is Linda Lovelace? That's right, they're not that old. Back in the day. Do you still power lift yourself? No, no.

I had to quit five years ago. I mean, I can't, but my neck gave out. When I was 63, I did a 730 squat in a meet, 505 bench, 675 deadlift, a 217. When you're 63? Yeah. Wow. My neck just gave out while I was starting to pass out all the time. You started passing out all the time?

Yeah, because of my neck. Like, what's going on? Did you compress discs? Yeah, because of my neck. What's going on? Compressed discs? Yeah, totally. It's basically from my mid-back, from my neck to my mid-back, it's like locked up. All just from carrying heavy weight? Heavy squats and heavy. I was squatting 410

when I was 14 years old. 410 at 14? Yeah. I cleaned your 260 in the contest at 14 at 140. Wow. And how old are you now? I'll be 69 in two weeks. But so how old were you when you were saying that you lifted all that weight, the most recent? 63. 63. And that's when you were done? You're like, that's enough? Well, I was passing out. I couldn't pass out. And I came off a platform and I asked my friend, was the squad good? It was 735. And he said, no. I said,

what was wrong? He said, you passed out. I mean, i didn't know then i was on queer street i noticed it's real dark and i never recovered so but i i made it through that me i made it through two weeks did 1885 total is actually 37th in the world that year wow and then uh i mean i thought i could actually total 2 000 pounds if i i was doing training which was squatting the eights but is. But because in these contests you wear gear and it takes longer to get up and down, it's causing me to pass out. Now, have you ever thought about inventing something that would strengthen the rest of your spine the same way you did the reverse hyper? I wish because I've got two devices that definitely work for the lower spine

that I need something from my brain. Right now, I just went through a series of stem cell i don't know what you got you get stem cell i had stem cell in my knee both hips of my shoulder and right and i just yesterday had platelet injections in in my knee and my hip gotta go back next week but i get nerve blocks in my neck you know i'd love to get my neck well but i think my also got kicked in my leg by a kid, a fighter, small one, 135, and he screwed up my knee, so that didn't help me any.

Why did he kick you in the leg? I told him to kick me in the head. She didn't kick me in the head. Don't kick me in the knee. Kick me in the knee and tore muscle, and basically must be a doctor or a hamstring right above my knee. Were you guys sparring or something? Yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm stupid. A lot of dudes are. So you still spar? No, no, no. Not now? No, I'm stupid. A lot of dealers do. So you still spar? No, no, no. Not now? No, I keep on. I can barely get around now.

I mean, I had a fracture skull at 13. A guy hit me in the hip with a baseball 13. And he broke a jaw and broke a hand by 18. You know, you didn't have MMA back then. Have you thought about inventing something that would sort of like strengthen the cervical spine and lengthen it the same way the reverse hyper did? I've never really thought about it. I got involved with a lot of things. We're going to introduce a machine

October 21st going to absolutely change the strength training as the world knows it. It's called a static dynamic developer. It will change the world's strength. Static dynamic developer. What is that going to do? It's like if I hold an elbow and you get pressure on your arm and slide the elbow in,

I have a machine that's going to hold you like you throw a punch. Hold it and let it go by a button. Hmm. I'm not sure I understand. You ever see judo toss where a guy, they'll throw you in a crash pad, like one will hold you down while the other guy tries to throw and then the guy lets go? Yes. Same thing, Just like that.

I have a machine that can do that. Oh. Interesting. So you can pull as hard as you can and can't budge me and I release if you throw me. Is it possible to develop something like a reverse hyper that works on some sort of a neck brace? Like a similar type

of movement? We've done reverse hypers with neck harnesses. Yeah? Yeah, where you're working the very top of your spine to the very bottom of your spine. Hmm. So you do the reverse hyper. With a neck harness on.

To people who are just listening to this, what a reverse hyper is, is like, see, a table. If you put your upper body on a table and your lower body was suspended underneath the table, like hanging underneath the table, you would attach your ankles to this harness that's like a leg curl attachment. And you lift your legs up straight. And then when you let your legs down, it's pulling on your spine. So it's active decompression. Right.

And what would you do with your neck? We put a neck harness on. So when you're down, when you raise your feet, we also raise our upper body. And then so when we do that, if you use the neck harness, you're working the very top of your spine right up to the atlas all the way down to SI. So would it be a neck harness like with weights on it? Yes. Okay, so just like a regular neck harness, like where you would hang your weights down and you do like... Right. Yeah. So when you pick up your feet, you pick up your head as well.

You know what I mean? You drop it down back and forth. Hmm. That's interesting. Huh. That seems like a great idea. Thanks, Joe. Yeah, I bet you do. Well, I mean, as soon as I saw that reverse hyper machine, I was like, well, how come this isn't used constantly? Because it totally makes sense.

It strengthens the back in a very strange way. I brought in a bunch of people that have had back issues, and they just try it once, and they go, whoa. I'm like, yeah, why the fuck is this thing not everywhere? Well, it's marketing. Tom Berry here does marketing, but we're just starting, and I never tried to market. I didn't care. I didn't care about my business. I cared about my gym.

I only cared about my gym all my life it's one of the most it's one of the most common injuries for people who lift weights or for people who grapple like i know a lot of fighters who have uh either have had discectomies where they take a chunk out of your disc or uh they're getting disc replacements now a lot of guys are getting disc replacements because they've developed some pretty new technology in europe where they have these articulating titanium discs. And they just cut out all the gelatinous substance between the discs and they put this

articulating mechanical disc in there. And guys are getting great relief and they're able to start fighting again. I know Rick Story has two of them on his neck. Quite a few guys have had these things done where their back was just too fucked up and they just couldn't do anything and so now they're actually replacing discs yeah that's what

happened to me but with you they wanted to fuse you right i had two doctors 2005 who wouldn't operate on me so it's too dangerous now it's 11 years ago why too dangerous i don't know it was at ohio state they sent me to two surgeons Ohio State, and he wouldn't operate on me. And you wonder why. It was because I was living on NyQuil and Tylenol PMS. So it was too dangerous because you were taking so many pain pills? No. They said at the time, the procedures they had, they thought it was more dangerous not to operate on me than to leave me alone. But, I mean, they weren't going through.

I mean, I've been tricked. I've had chest tubes. I have a thoracic outlet. I went to my've had chest tubes. I have a thoracic outlet. I went to my doctor here in town. What's a thoracic outlet? Thoracic outlet is when a lot of people have open heart surgery, so you can't put your hands over your head anymore. I went to my doctor.

He had me put my hand over my head and raise my head, and my pulse stopped. Because it basically goes in and touches the carotid artery. What? Yes. So when you would raise your hands over your head, it would compress the carotid artery. What? Yes. So when you would raise your hands over your head, it would compress your carotid artery. What's causing it to do that?

I don't understand. Because it would push. Whatever it's doing, it would just cut the oxygen. See, if you wanted to tap me out, it just puts my head backwards, and I'll go to sleep for you. Can't put my head backwards anymore. Power lifting go to sleep for you. That sounds like... Can't go back and head backwards anymore. Power lifting sounds

fucking terrible for you. Well, you know, if you would grapple guys that weighed 170 all your life, I'd grapple the guys that weighed 920. Well, not... Yeah.

Exactly what it's like, right? Yeah. You know, if you want to unlimit a tournament and you get some 285-pound monster on your ass, same thing. Weights get bigger and bigger.

You burn a candle both ends until the weights eat you alive. But you don't sound like you have any regrets whatsoever. I have no regrets. If I hadn't been beat up all my life, I would have never learned

what I learned. People make fun of me. Oh, you broke your back in 73. You broke your back. Well, you know, I have no bicep. Tore my bicep off in 71.

Whoa! Yeah. Tore this one off. It's knotted up right here. That's where your bicep ties into your forearm. So both your biceps have been torn off. Yeah. Andore this one off. It's knotted up right here. That's where your bicep ties into your forearm. So both your biceps have been torn off. Yeah. And it never stopped me.

I tore this one off totally, and they told me I was done. Six months later, I won a national championship. Third biggest total ever made. Let me see what that looks like again. So it's gone. It's gone. You have no bicep. No, right here.

That's insane. So you don't do curls? I do very few curls. You know, curls don't matter for us. Curls, right here. That's insane. So you don't do curls? I do very few curls. You know, curls don't matter for us. Curls for the girls. That's right. It's all extensions. Right.

All extension. Wow. But that's how I learn. You know, how are you going to learn? So when you tore it, you didn't even think about getting surgery to get it reattached? I went to three surgeons. Two said operate. One said, if you don't care what it looks like, don't operate.

I said, I'm not operating. Wow. But, you know, I said six months later, made the third highest over over made my weight class and then you how'd you fuck up the other one believe it or not when i tore my patella tendon in half i'd never done curls like you said yeah my kneecap is over here so i uh i was doing curls and i tore my freaking bicep and i was so bored i couldn't hardly do anything. So you were so bored because you tore your patella that you said, well, let me try these curls, and then you wound up blowing your bicep off.

That's right. I tore my patella. I was an integral Olympic king because I was 43 at that point, and I'd done about everything that I was going to do. And then so like four years later, I had a kid who was training me. He's a world record holder, 20 years old. In the bench, 7'28". And I told him, I says, Kenny, I said, man, I'm going to come out of retirement and squat seven before you've ever been seven again. He said, old man, you'll never have seven pounds on your back again.

That brought me out of retirement right then. I did seven eights and nines. I was the second biggest squat in the world at 50 years old. I had the fourth biggest total. Just because someone brought it up to you, you're like, hey, you run your mouth, you know. The good thing was he made me do that, but he never did break that bench record. So I'm always thankful.

I'm very motivated by anything. I'm a highly motivated person. Now, you've also been real open about steroids, which I think is very commendable because it's one of those things in the world of powerlifting, the world of bodybuilding, and even in the world of fighting, it's a dirty, dark secret that people like to keep to themselves. But your grandpa can take it. Yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah. I believe, in my opinion, you should pass the physical.

No one has the right to tell you what to do in this world. When it comes time to die, I'm the one that's got to die. When it's time for me to live, let me lead the life I want to live. But what do you think in terms of the problem with a lot of people have, the problem they see with using steroids in sports is it's going to force young people to use steroids to be able to compete with the people that are using them. They do it anyhow. Yeah.

But if everybody's forced to be clean, then they don't. Like what we're doing now with the UFC, where the USADA, the people that have stepped in, Jeff Nowitzki running that program, the guy who caught Lance Armstrong. Well, actually, Lance Armstrong was never caught, right? Right. He passed 25 tests for seven years in a row and never was tested.

See, it's not against the rules to take drugs. It's against the rules to get caught taking drugs. That's a fucking loophole. Yeah, so if you've got a good doctor, you're on the craft and I'm not. So that's why there should be no... You know, Tyson Fury fury said make it even play field stop the drug test i'd say the same thing and we're not all born with the same amount testosterone that's true i mean when i was a kid you know if i was born today i would be in prison

you're not telling me it's like all these you know some of those fighters have got way more testosterone than other fighters that's true not born They're not born the same amount. So the only thing you could, why not train? You've got a better, if you've got a better, you know, you could kick my ass because you do jiu-jitsu and shit, and I don't do any. But that don't mean you're tougher than me. That just means you've got a better coach than me. So are you cheating me? That's a good point. But if two guys do have the same coaches, and they do have similar body types, and one guy is taking steroids, he's going to have an advantage, right?

But isn't that pharmaceutical? You watch TV? Every five minutes you've got a drug commercial on. Right. I'll be 69. Let's take all the guys. I'm 68. I'll be 62.

Let's take all the health medication off 68-year-olds. I'll be the only one left on earth. I don't have any ailment time will tell you my problem is to go to doctor just know there's something wrong with me there's nothing wrong with me i just beat the crap out of myself physically i i don't have high blood pressure high cholesterol i don't have anything and so let's just take all the drugs away but all the old six eight year old guys die off his plane? I'll be the only one lit. I'll be killing all the old women. Well, for a guy like you who's not competing, see, one of the arguments for fighting is that steroids allow you to do more damage to your opponent,

and that that is one of the reasons why steroids should be illegal. It's because you can train harder, you have more endurance, and not just steroids, but things like EPO and a bunch of other stuff. You'll have more energy in a fight, and you could possibly land more blows, possibly wind up beating someone that you wouldn't be able to beat

and do damage to them. So it's different in a lot of ways. But why wouldn't a person take a sports... It's called PEDs, Performance Enhancing Drugs. Right. Why wouldn't you do that in sports? Well, because they would think of it as cheating.

Well, who does? Well, a lot of people do. How many guys have cried their eyes out but to get caught? Then they cry like bitches and they lie. Baseball players. They never took drugs, they get caught and they cry like bitches. That's what I don't like. I'll tell people, I've never read the Bible,

but I see them billboards on the freeway says i shall not lie just quit lying and come out and say i take droids you know the nfl why would you be in a sport like the nfl you know what drugs do is for recovery right that's all it is right you know you take i can give my strongest people i've ever seen uh doing i've seen weak guys take more drugs than anyone I've ever had in my gym. Really? Yeah. Drugs don't make you strong. You're born that way.

You're born fast. You're born slow. You're born with an attitude. No, you're not. Well, that's the big misconception about steroids, right? Is that they make you bigger. The work makes you bigger. It's the recovery.

Right. They cause you to recover to do more workouts. Right. It causes you to recover to do more workouts. Right. So everyone doesn't want to do workouts. How many people, you know, say they want to be an MMA fighter until they get in a cage one time. Right. And they never get, like Coleman told me, Mark said, he had a million wrestlers when he had Hammer House here. As soon as they got armbarred one time, they never came back.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. But there's a mild benefit to taking testosterone and a bunch of other stuff without doing any physical work. But almost all of it is in the fact that you can put in more work and you recover far quicker than the average person. Yeah, but see, that way, if everyone took it, you're not cheating. You know, you got a Corvette, you don't have to put high test gas in.

Right. You don't have to put high test gas in. Right. But don't you think that, like, it also, but for young guys, it can fuck up your endocrine system and fucks up your body's production of testosterone. So what? So what? So what? That's what HCG is for.

You got a smart doctor, you take HCG. Everybody takes HCG because your nuts will shrink up. Because if you take roids, you take tests, you take them more than Mother Nature told you, so your nuts shrink up. But they're morons anyhow because you took HCGg you're not going to drink up hcg what does that stand for the tropic hormone it raises all your hormones but there's in sports there you cannot there's no sportsmanship in sports it mean you was to fight in front of a big crowd half the crowd want me to knock you out and the other half the crowd would want you to knock me out is that sportsmanship well that's just people i mean but sportsmanship is supposed to be the athletes competing without cheating i mean if i if if there was a pill that you could take that made you invulnerable it gave you like a god pill

and you took and you went into a fight and the other guy thought he was fighting a man but you're you're invulnerable no one can hurt you you can't be hurt and you went into a fight and the other guy thought he was fighting a man. But you're invulnerable. No one can hurt you. You can't be hurt and you don't get tired. And you have superhuman strength. That's a good point. Would steroids still be illegal at that point? Well, it would be better than steroids. It would be like a super steroid. But I mean, wouldn't you think that that would be cheating?

No. No? No. But then nobody could beat anybody. You'd just beat the fuck out of each other and nothing would ever happen. Heaven and hell is right here. It all starts up in your brain. Man, see, I kind of could see how you could make that argument with other sports.

But with fighting, I mean, fighting is about, because fighting is problem solving with dire physical consequences. I mean, that's what it is. And if you can minimize those consequences through drugs, a lot of people would think

that that would be cheating. I look at it like this. I look at the Diaz brothers. I'm guessing they got a lot of testosterone. I don't know who in the hell their dad was, but he must have had a lot of testosterone. Well, it's interesting. Those guys eat vegan for the most part.

I think Nate eats fish and eggs too. I don't even know if Nick eats fish. He might have in the past, but I don't think he does anymore. I think he's pretty much vegan. Most people that eat vegan have lower testosterone because the substrate for developing testosterone is fats. Cholesterol and fats are one of the most important. When people get on ketogenic diets, one of the more interesting things that happens when they consume a large amount of fats and saturated fats and cholesterol is that their testosterone goes way up. I assume weightlifters are on high-cholesterol diets.

Yes. So I don't necessarily know if those guys have high testosterone. What they do have is high endurance. Their endurance is through the roof. Right. But a lot of that is because they participate in triathlons, a lot of endurance running, endurance swimming, biking, things along those lines. triathlons, a lot of endurance running, endurance swimming, biking, things along those lines. But you still have to have the brain thought to go kick someone's ass.

Right. But don't you think that Ronda Rousey has that brain thought, too? She doesn't have any testosterone. I mean, she has some, but not a lot. You know what I mean? But more than other girls. Yeah, but not more than men. How about Cyborg? Well, that's a little different.

See, that's the argument for steroids right there. That's the argument because she actually has been caught. She's actually tested positive. And obviously she's passing the test now, right? Yes, but you know as well as I do that when a woman takes male hormones for a long period of time, even if they get off of them, there's benefits that they keep forever. It's the same thing with men. Yes.

And just because you're passing the drug test, I won't say who, but I trained a top international shot putter. He could go off Anabar in eight days and pass the drug test. IOC. See, that's just... It's only eight days you get off? Eight days on Anabar. So Anabar is one of the quickest ones to get off of, right? Yeah.

So, I mean, hell, I forget to take stuff for eight days. So the benefits, unquestionably, are permanent, or at least some of them are. What I think about, you know, what you're looking at, you're looking at a fighter's career as you see it in an envelope. And then when that day that tough fighter retires, you forget about it. But what about the years later after a fighter's career? If he was on antibiotics, he would survive the fighting years and be able to continue on his older years like me so what you're saying is that well longevity post career i totally understand that a lot of fighters believe that as well like testosterone replacement growth hormone therapy

for guys who have retired but while they're competing themselves they don't want to do anything because they don't want to think that the reason why they accomplished those goals is because they were taking drugs. I can shoot tons of roids in someone's ass. It ain't going to make them kick my ass. It's not going to make them kick their ass, but there's no question that some fighters

fight better when they're taking steroids. Well, how about just a nutritionist? Let's just cut out the nutritionist. Yeah, but the nutritionist, look, everybody knows how to eat healthy. I mean, if you're eating healthy and you're training hard, but one guy's taking steroids and one guy's not, there's a giant advantage for the guy who's taking steroids. I just know too many people take steroids, and then you pass a drug test.

That's all I'm trying to say. Right. I don't bring up any names. I understand, and I know you're not, but that's one of the reasons why the UFC has instituted this incredibly invasive USADA policy. They'll wake you up at 6.30 in the morning. Well, how would you like that? Watching piss in a cup?

I don't like it. Exactly. But that's the only way to catch people. I just, I mean, I'll never go with the drug test. I don't think the NFL should have drug tests. I don't think any NFL should have. I think there's a good argument there. First of all, there's a good argument for baseball

because baseball, no one's getting hurt. In the NFL, you can make the argument that you're able to hurt guys more and then that damages them and it shortens their career. But baseball, there's no argument in my opinion. Baseball is boring as fuck. I mean, some people like it. I get it.

But what I'm saying is like if if you if you got a drug that lets you hit more balls over the fence take that that's the only thing interesting about baseball's home runs i think you're gonna sell it well but that's just so how do you let that sport get away with it you know what i'm saying why not make it legal for all you know like baseball is a funny thing you know if you hit less than 50 home runs that gets your drug free but you start hitting 51 of your own roids right it seems like that's what this point and they talk about the base of the steroid here they were taking drugs in 1960s so who are they trying to kid were they yeah in st louis you know uh it was a football team um you know the raiders uh i've heard stories

or i think it's even documented on espn they were going in and had v-ball tabs on the training table all right well you know what I just say to the Raiders? Well, the baseball team, the A's, the Athletics. Well, it's like if they're in the same town, it's like Siamese twins. You're having sex with one of the girls,

you're having sex with both the girls. What? If no one tested, they knew football players were taking it in Oakland, but why wouldn't the baseball players be taking it right down the street? They probably would, but do you think that people were thinking of steroids as being that kind of power being a crucial aspect of baseball back then? I think what it was, sure.

But baseball is more of a skill game, don't you think? Did anyone ever test Mickey Mantle? Roger Maris? Hank Aaron? You think Hank it was, sure. But baseball's more of a skill game, don't you think? Did anyone ever test Mickey Mantle? Roger Maris? Hank Aaron? You think Hank Aaron was doing steroids? Of course. They had steroids back then? They had steroids in 1939. But were athletes taking them, though? Exactly. Yes, that's what I'm trying

to say. If a football team was taking it, why wouldn't a baseball team take it? We got these Fortunatis, they're all geeks anyhow. They're the goddamn thing in their life. But they're also hypocritical and they got these ideas and they're probably taking testosterone therapy as it is.

I was at a paramedic one time and this doctor's a big fat guy. He's talking about how bad roids are. So I'm just listening to him. And then my friend says, what's that patch on here? He says, oh, it's a testosterone patch. What kind of thinking is that? I mean, it's

a true story. Well, there's a lot of hypocritical thinking when it comes to that stuff, for sure. It's just, it's an interesting debate, and a lot of people think that you should be able to do whatever you want. Like, the Pride Days. During the Pride Days, which, in my opinion, were some of the most exciting, all-time

mixed martial arts fights those guys did whatever the fuck they wanted and the the japanese literally told them like in their contract we will not test you for steroids they told them that you know like look at horse racing yeah right dog racing yeah but everybody that's okay so they just worry about that well equipo, equipoise, right? Equipoise is equa. It's like got horse in the fucking title. That's right. Yeah, I mean, and that's something that people take,

and it's a hormone for steroids for horses. Exactly. Now, so you don't think there's anything negative. But there's obviously got to be some drawbacks to steroids, right? I went on antibiotics in January 1970. 1970. 1970. And so what is this, 2016?

Yeah. I've never been off. You've never been off in 46 years? That's insane. No. You just stay on them? That's right. No cycling?

Why would I go off? To tell everybody you're off them, I guess. Exactly. And I go out there and tell the truth. I don't lie. Do people get upset at you that you're so honest about it? I don't give a damn if they get upset at me. But I'm just curious.

Has it ever come up? The only time respect accounts is self-respecting. I don't give a hell about these geeks. They're not doing crap. Right. They suck when they were kids. They suck when they're middle-aged. They suck when they're old. That's how I look at it.

Our damn prison ought to be on roids. A whole country wouldn't be put in our world, wouldn't be in the shape we're in today if they had some nuts. But if they had nuts, they wouldn't need steroids, right? Because the nuts shrink. Let's just say some aggression. Right, some aggression. My friend was a psychologist,

and he would test people in prisons, rapists and murderers. He said he had tested some, had 25 times the rate of testosterone a normal man does. 25 times? 25 times. That's why I say, you know...

How is that even possible? Well, why are they out there raping people? Why are they killing people with no remorse? Because they got an enormous amount of testosterone. He said that he saw that's why they probably did it. He didn't, you know, you can't do that stuff. He realized that, but he thought that's why they would be on a course to do stuff like that.

It's just absolutely crazy. You take, look take look at elephants you know these elephants uh what they call it when they they just ease out testosterone out killing each other and knocking down villagers and everything so the world needs more of that well i think it needs more because look at uh you know what when i was a kid there's gay. Now they say there's 34. 34% gay? 34%. Who the fuck says that? My colleges. I believe it. There's no way. Too many boy bands.

Oh, there's no way it's 34% gay. 34%. Oh, man. Okay. Well,

I'm sure someone probably... they got testosterone because look at Jeffrey Dahmer. He's out there killing people. Well,

he was gay too. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But I don't think, I don't necessarily think that's a testosterone thing, right? That's a sociopath, psychopath thing. Who knows? I'll say that. Well, I don't think, well, I'm not talking about the gay part.

The other part, eating people. Yeah, crazy ass. I mean, but that's not a good argument for testosterone. If you're saying that prisoners and rapists and murderers have a lot of it. Everybody's got a lot of opinions about roids, but I've seen probably a thousand people on roids over the years. Right. Maybe more, right? That's right.

The ones who took the most drugs were not always the strongest. Actually, the strong guys didn't take that much. And a lot of them, I mean, lesser guys take a ton of shit, but they're just not strong. A lot of them. And then, I mean, lesser guys take a ton of shit, but they just can't. They're just not strong. Well, isn't there also a point of diminishing returns where, like, taking too much of it throws your body out of balance to the point where you're not going to recover correctly because your body's constantly dealing with this? And it makes you crazy.

Right. You can't concentrate. Yeah, that's a real problem that people don't want to admit that roared rage isn't a real thing. I've seen it. It's real. It's 100% real. I don't think there's such a thing as roid rage. You don't think so? No.

Well, you said it makes you crazy. Yeah, but I don't see the little guys. There's plenty of fighters who would fight a 300-pound guy. Because they're just crazy people. Because they're crazy. Right. It's not because they're on roids. They're fucking crazy.

Right, but when people are taking too much steroids and it makes you crazy. A little guy is not going to jump on a big guy and get his ass great, you know, because of roid rays. He'll do it because he was born that way to do it. You're born, there's two kind of people, prey and predator. You'll find out which one you are real quick. You're a prey or predator. Lou, you're in this, like, very insulated world in a lot of ways, right?

Because you're constantly around these savages. You're constantly around dudes that are just fucking lifting crazy heavy weights very manly men a lot of guys are doing steroids a lot of guys lifting weights like that's your world like this is the these are the type of people that you surround yourself with a lot of people that are listening to this right now like this guy's fucking crazy who's this guy with no biceps and been on steroids for 40 years like this guy's a maniac i i don't know i mean i i was born to do something and i did it i i i've never straightened away i've done one thing all my life i'm going to do it to the day i die i'm not ever going to quit what i do every

day i'm going to try to make something me better or someone else better that's what i do that's the only thing i've ever done, and I'll never quit it. Well, for a guy... If you was in my gym, I would find a way to make you a better grappler. I believe you would. I believe you would. Yeah, that's my job. I believe you would.

Now, being 68 years old, if it wasn't for all your debilitating injuries that you've gotten from lifting crazy amounts of weight, you look great. I mean, you look very healthy. Very healthy. Like, you have energy. amounts of weight, you look great. I mean, you look very healthy. Very healthy. Like, you have energy. You're very, you know, you're on top.

You're on the ball when I'm talking to you. Like, do you attribute a lot of that to taking steroids, that it gives you that energy? If it wasn't for testosterone, I mean, Lord, I'm not saying I might be dead, but, I mean, I wouldn't be sitting here. You wouldn't be talking to me. You wouldn't know who Louie Simmons was.

I mean, I broke my back in 73. I had had no training partners i was on crutches for 10 months every day i'd get down in my basement i looked at a mirror had a mirror and am radio and i looked in that mirror and said how am i going to get better what i got to do every day i've never i'm to this day i mean i kept going till i mean you just can't pass out and kill me and two guys with me you know so that's what got me out of my sport. Anybody who's listening to this, here's that pounding on the roof. That's Ohio rain, folks. Metal ceiling on the roof.

So it's nice for us in California. We don't get any rain ever. It's nice to be down here, get some rain. So what stuff do you take? Right now, yeah. Just testosterone. Just testosterone. What have you taken?

Normally when I would train I would take a Dinobot, Tablis You know I just did tests You talk about Equipoise I like Equipoise

Uh huh What about human growth hormone? Human growth hormone Is a waste of time Doesn't work It's a waste of time? Yep How so?

Well you know I took growth hormone As human growth Before HIV came out And right out of cadavers It's called Crest-Corman Right That's growth before HIV came out. And right out of cadavers. It's called Crest-Corman. Right.

That's the stuff that came out of people's brain. They took it out of pituitary glands, right? That's right. Well, then when they made synthetic growth hormone, they never made somatometin. Somatometin triggers somatotropin, which is growth hormone. Somatometin? What is that? Somatometin triggers growth hormone.

They never made synthetic somatomitin. I mean, people take growth hormone. How many people you know take growth hormone? If you take growth hormone, you have to eat it around. A guy your size, you probably have to do 7,000 to 8,000 calories a day. You have to blow sugar attacks one after another. People don't do that. Why?

Because it doesn't work. And it knocks body fat off. You see people losing body fat? No. It's a joke. It's a more, off. You see people losing body fat? No. It's a joke. It's a more, what's the word, placebo effect than anything. So you don't think it helps people recover from things? No, I don't think it does anything.

I took tons of it. I've been prescribed it. I have a fake shoulder. A fake shoulder? Yeah. What's going on with your shoulder? I had to have a shoulder replacement. Wow.

Okay. It froze. I had a frozen shoulder. I had to replace this one. And then, so I got tons of growth hormone. I gave him growth hormone. I just gave it away. It was a waste. Wow. Doctors should study you.

It seems like everything that's ever gone wrong. I did a contest with a fake shoulder. Really? And what exercise? Bench press. You bench press over 500 with a fake shoulder. Really? In what exercise? Bench press. You bench press over 500 with a fake shoulder? Did doctors... I did 24 reps of 100-pound dumbbells.

24 reps of 100-pound dumbbells. Jesus Christ. That's insane. It's in the mind? Is that what you're saying? It's all in the mind. You know, there's a book a fighter's got. I don't remember his name.

It's called Pain Don't Matter. Pain really don't matter to got i don't know his name it's called pain don't matter pain really don't matter to me i'm so freaking used to pain it don't matter but a fake shoulder like i don't i mean are they are you supposed to be able to lift that kind of weight on a fake shoulder like did doctors tell you to be able to go right back to training i had it done by the doctor his name is dr minniachi he was a cleveland brown surgeon at the time and he basically gave me no instruction. I left the hospital that day out of recovery, and I did my own therapy. He gave you no instruction? He knew.

It was new at the time. He kind of wanted to see if it would hold up. My buddy, Morris, was a strength coach with the Browns. He said, this guy is crazy. So they wanted to find out if this thing would hold up.

And it must have held up. Because I mean, you know. And it's still okay now? Yeah. Wow.

You see the scar if you don't believe me. Oh, I believe you. Yeah. Wow. He's seen me do stuff. And so when you

got your shoulder replacement, how long did you wait before you started lifting heavy again? I started benching in one week. I started a broomstick in one week.

That's so crazy. How much were you benching in one week? A broomstick. But in three months, I benched 300. That's so crazy. That's crazy. Well, in that case, I've got to think steroids helped your recovery. That's right.

Well, that's one of the best things for it, right? It's recovery for injury. And that's one of the best arguments for athletes. And nuts, too. You just can't sit around. The doctor tells you don't do nothing for eight weeks. That's why I don't go to doctors. 90% of them ought to be in a lake because they're quacks.

You know, they're surgeons. That's all they know. They don't know nothing, but they're experts on everything. So I don't listen to doctors. Well, that's one of the best arguments for steroids is post-injury recovery, right? It was for concentration camp victims in World War II, 1939, where antibiotics came out. For concentration camp victims? That's right.

When people come out of concentration camps, it's a prisoner war. That's what they made. Antibiotics, that was the first thing they made them for. Well, it's really good for people that have wasting diseases. Exactly. Same thing if you're in a prison war camp.

And give you some sort of vitality back. Yeah. Yeah. So, when you see guys that get injured and you see them try to do things without steroids, like, especially injury, like injury recovery.

I think that's one of the best arguments that like maybe when an athlete blows a knee out or something like that and gets surgery, they really should be allowed to use that kind of stuff. How many athletes do you think there are in America, professional athletes, all total? Quite a few. 1,000 or 1,500? Probably more. There's a couple million older men taking testosterone replacements so that's my argument why would you not let an athlete what is the difference right and that's what i just said

but i don't care if you if you don't want to take them fine with me i don't give a damn you don't want to eat a protein shake you don't eat right i don't care well when it comes to eating right like what kind of what kind of diet do you subscribe to i really don't describe i eat eggs and meat in the morning and i eat pretty good you know what i mean i eat a lot of chicken and rice i mean i'm not into the good food i've seen people eat real clean they have no aggression so like a lot of bodybuilders you know if he's super clean it seems like i have no aggression and you know if know, if you're like, what I do, outside of throwing punches or kicks, it's a fight.

You've got to fight these big weights. You've got to stare them down. You've got to lift them. You've got to do it over and over and over. A lot of intense aggression. That's right. Do you think that's the lack of cholesterol in the diet? The lack of fats? It may be, because I've just seen

I've been around too many people, bodybuilders also they were the ones that had the side effects. If you get around the guys that have no facial hair or no body hair it seems like those were the ones that I've known for years that had the side effects.

A little bit of drugs will give them side effects. And other people you know I always talk about taking stuff for gynecomastia. I've never taken anything. My God, darn life, I've never needed anything. For gyno. Yeah, you get a real tough looking guy, he'd never have any problem taking, because they've already got testosterone. It's not something new to their system.

But guys who get gyno, it's just because they have a ridiculous amount of testosterone, then your body starts producing estrogen to balance it out, right? I'm not that high on estrogen anyhow. Oh, so you think it's just because they have a ridiculous amount of testosterone, then your body starts producing estrogen to balance it out, right? I'm not that high on estrogen anyhow. Oh, so you think it's just... Exactly. Huh. Because I've seen guys with big, thick beards, rough kind of guys, they don't have no problem.

They don't have any problem. I'm just telling you what I see. Right, no, I get it. I'm not putting it in a lab. I'm only telling you what I've seen in my... Through my jamming ears that I've seen guys, the guys that get whacked out on drugs, where the guys are very, you know,

not thin in them, but almost kind of thin. Now, when the person who doesn't power lift or people who are unaware of the sport, and they think of a bodybuilder doing the same kind of things that a guy like you would do, that's what they think. Oh, yeah. But that's not the case.

No. Not even close. What is the big difference between body builders and power lifters? Body builders is a hyperpathy sport. They do high repetitions and they eat different and they take other things different to get very big. We don't want to get big. We're just like you. We want to stay in the smallest weight class we can and get as strong as we can. There's a saying,

big ain't strong, strong is strong. We just want to be strong. So weight class we can and get as strong as we can. There's a saying, big ain't strong, strong is strong. So we just want to be strong. So everything we do is not to build larger muscles. Like I work with track people, mostly girls. We don't want to put 10 pounds of extra body weight on them. It's 10 pounds of extra weight that they have to overcome gravity to run down a track. So we keep their body weight to a minimum. The muscle mass, we just want to make it stronger.

You don't have to get bigger to be stronger. That's confusing to a lot of people because a lot of people think of big muscles meaning stronger and that's the only way to get stronger but i've seen some people in power lifting competitions that just lift insane amounts of weight and they're not that big well how is that possible but muscle type you know you're always talking about you uh i've always mentioned you a few times you talk about like a woolly and say he's all muscular he runs out of gas real quick who um tyron tyron woodley yeah yeah he has playing in the same they got a pretty much the same amount of muscle mass he just has very fast twitch muscle and another guy you're talking about endurance may have more slow twitch muscle and then so that that guy that's why he can fight five rounds and tyron

where it starts to wear out somewhere in the second round. Well, it's also because a guy like Tyrone is capable of putting out so much energy. The way he can attack guys and move so fast, it's like having a 500-horsepower engine versus having a 400-horsepower. One's going to just use more gas. That's right. Well, it's faster than a 400-horsepower engine. That's why you've got sprinters and you've got marathon runners, and they look totally different.

Yeah. And so when someone looks at a bodybuilder and they see this guy's just covered in muscles, they assume that guy would be able to lift a ton of weights. But for the most part, those guys can't lift nearly as much weights as a guy like you can. No. That's crazy to people. That doesn't even make sense. Well, a lot of things are crazy to people that aren't in the know.

Yeah. Think about what we're mentioning about those anabolic steroids. Does it frustrate you that this lack of understanding that the general public has about this stuff? Absolutely. You ever look at the Olympics? We look at our weightlifters, Olympic weightlifters. We don't go to the Olympics. I hope we never do.

I hope our weightlifters never get in the Olympics. They're sitting the worst weightlifters ever. But they said, our Olympic weightlifting team is pretty bad. We can't get a guy on the A team.

All right? And they're just not very good. You look at our women in gymnastics people. They're extremely strong. They blow everybody out of the water. You go to China, their male weightlifters

and female are tremendously muscular, and they kill everybody, but their gyms look pathetic. It's because they're all in different systems, you know. You've got better coaches and better systems to take stuff. So American doesn't have good Olympic powerlifters? Olympic weightlifters. Weightlifters. We rule the world.

Powerlifters in this country, American weightlifters are not very good they're not no terrible really no i did not know that there was one girl what got a bronze in olympic one girl got a bronze we in in my sport there's 12 male weight classes uh we hold seven of the total records my gym holds two and in women there's 10 weight classes america holds nine of the 10 and my gym holds five i have the strongest male powerlifter ever lived period and the best and the strongest female in the very same gym now what about shit like those strongest men contests oh well they're strong ass guys yeah but that's a different thing entirely as well it's another different thing right like boxing's different than MMA. Right. Yeah.

Muay Thai is different than boxing, you know? You never see, I'll tell you what I'm going to say, a Muay Thai guy that's going to win a world boxing championship. Right. And vice versa.

Well, I think it has happened. Thai was, what the fuck is his name? Oh, there was a kid, though, I mean, actually. Olympic gold medalist in Thailand. He fought Paki.

I think he's from New York. He might have been a Muay Thai champion. Is that right? Oh, Chris Algieri. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he was a kickboxing champion one time, too. Good footwork. Yeah. Good footwork. That's amazing. So, what the fuck

is his name? I forget his name, but he was the guy that, he's the guy that Jean-Claude Van Damme was always supposed to fight. Jean-Claude Van Damme is always supposed to fight. Jean-Claude Van Damme pretends he's going to have a fight. He's going to have a kickboxing fight with this Thai guy.

But that guy won a world title as a Muay Thai fighter and as a boxer. But that's pretty rare. But I agree with you. But now, what would be the difference? If you had a guy coming to you that wanted to win a strongest man competition, that seems like something that would be right up your alley. Because you're so good at preparing fighters and understanding the different demands of different sports. My friend in Finland, his name's Sakari, he's got four guys in that gym of deadlift over 900,

and they're all strongmen. And he does a lot, he trains a lot of strongmen. All right, I'm not into that. But he told Tom and I that one thing, he sprinted with 1,000 pound wheelbarrows. 1,000 pounds on a wheelbarrow. We do a lot of wheelbarrow work. And also they carry heavy yokes. That's two of the primary things

that get them to be strongmen. What's a yoke? A yoke is a thing you put on your back and you walk around with it. We do an enormous amount of walking with bars with bands and chains hanging off so it's unstable. Because that's what you have to be. Right.

You've got to be stable in an unstable environment. So they walk a half a mile and stuff like that. That's what gets them strong. Is that why you like wheelbarrows? Because it's almost like a deadlift that you've got to kind of walk with? Is that what it is? You've got to control it. Like Dorian Price, a real good Muay Thai fighter.

Dorian thought that really helped his... His plum? Clinch. Clinch, yeah. That makes sense. good multi-fighter uh dorian thought that really helped his up his um his plum clinch yeah that makes sense um so did you come up with the idea of using wheelbarrows for the world barrel in 1990 and it's just something that looked to you like a good unstable platform yeah and it builds up your extreme industry building up your back and grip you know you gotta have a grip right so and you know most you guys got great

grips anyhow but it builds up grip and it builds up all your muscles and you're walking see my you know a lot of guys do strength and conditioning i believe it's got to be combined you don't have that much time because fighting is a tremendous skill you you need all your i mean the world's strongest man ain't the damn the mma champ know. So I believe you've got to strength and condition at the same time. That's why we do so much outside walking. We're doing heavy carrying objects walking. So we're conditioning and strength training. Do you pay any attention to Mariusz Pudzianowski?

Oh, sure. You know what he's doing now? He's fighting MMA. Oh, I knew he did. I didn't know he's still doing it. I remember when he went to Strongman, he went to that. Yeah, he hasn't given up. He's been doing it for quite a long time now.

And he's actually beaten some pretty good guys at this point. He knocked out Hollis Gracie in the first round. He lost to Tim Sylvia, but that's a fight that he never should have taken. But, you know, Tim Sylvia is a big, giant, former UFC heavyweight champion. But, you know, you see Tim. Tim's got, like got a lot of body fat on him. He's not the most gifted athlete in terms of... Like, Randleman

is a freak athlete. He was alive, rest in peace. He was a great guy. I love Kevin. But he was probably one of the biggest natural, genetic freaks I've ever seen. Tim's not that. Tim's just hard work and dedication

and just toughness. And he beat the fuck out of Marius Pudzianowski. It's kind of funny when you see the two of them together. I might have saw that fight. Yeah, you might have. But he started out

kickboxing, didn't he? Before he even went into... I think he kickedboxing when he was a kid. Pudzianowski? Yeah. Did he? Maybe.

He went on a straw man somehow. He was a boxer? Boxer. Boxer. Okay. Boy. You would not believe it when you see him hit the pads when he was starting out. It was like... Yeah, it's almost like he's weighing himself down,

throwing weights all over his body and trying to move himself. It wasn't... My point being, he's actually transitioned and has become a legitimate professional mma fighter who's you know beaten some guys he's not not bad i mean he's not no one's gonna say he's a threat to the ufc heavyweight title at least at this point in time but it's interesting to me because he's still 300 plus pounds he's still a massive massive guy and he's fighting all these events are all places where I don't think they test him, too.

Mm-hmm. Which is interesting, too. Mm-hmm. Tim Sylvia, when he was at his best, when he won the title against Rico Rodriguez, was on some shit. But he looked so different back then. He didn't look like a doughy sort of heavy guy. Look at Overeem. Overeem's the best example.

Overeem. Overeem's the best example. Overeem. When Overeem came to the UFC, when he fought Brock Lesnar, it was kind of the wild west of testing. Back then, all you had to do was pass the post-fight test. That's it. That's all you had to do. Which was, like you were saying, if you take Anivar and you just get off

it for eight days, you're clean. But the effects were obviously still there. That's exactly. Anivar has always been the drug of choice for collegiate wrestlers way back years ago. Because of the fact it gets out of your system so quickly? No, because it keeps your body weight down. The difference between bodybuilding, they take drugs on low-calorie diets that can maintain muscle mass. See, that's the difference.

Everybody thinks there's only one kind of anabolic. Why does a bodybuilder look like they do? Why do they look different if they're taking the same drugs? Because the training is totally different. Yeah, that's one of the— And the calorie intake is totally different. One of the big dirty secrets about vegan bodybuilders, like almost all vegan bodybuilders are taking something.

And the reason being is because of the fact they're not getting enough cholesterol, they're not getting enough saturated fat in their diet, and so your body just does not want to produce that kind of muscle mass. So those kind of guys are almost all taking something in order to put that kind of mass onto their body.

You know, see, we I train two Olympic gold medal sprinters. I train all kind of people. And so it's not like it's just a bit around powerlifting. Everyone I know, you know, there's a... We'll get back to the drug test. You ever think about the Olympics

and see world records at the Olympics? You see world records, right? Well, if we're breaking those world records drug-free, why do you need drug testing? Maybe one of your callers Should call me up and tell me that one Because they're passing the drug test Right

Well they're also catching them From previous years now You heard about the Russians Those two guys from 2008 They got their gold medals pulled from them Oh yeah, that's bullshit It's bullshit? It's bullshit because you think

other people are doing it, too? Of course. But Russia has a very sophisticated anti-doping program that's state-run. Oh, Americans are virgins? No, I'm not saying that. Yeah, exactly. But America, I don't think,

is so blatant about their endorsement of drugs. I think America kind of knows about it, but they can't come out and say it or come out and... If you're overseas, the fan just wants to know what place you got. They don't care how you got it. You don't think they care? No, of course not.

Overseas. No, because it's done by the state. Jesus. It's done by the state. Right. And what the problem was, Russia was guilty because it was state-funded drug administration. I mean, they're doing the same thing everywhere. Well, not just that.

Russia's killing the scientists. All the scientists who know about it, a giant percentage of those guys have been shot in the fucking head. Have you been reading about that? No. Oh, they're dropping like flies. Yeah, all these guys. Because once Russia got in trouble, they were in danger of being eliminated from the Rio Olympic Games. You know about that, right?

They did. Yeah. Well, no, they didn't. They allowed them in. No, there was no weightlifters. I forgot how many people. A couple hundred Russians did not go. Oh, really?

And you know, yeah, and a girl here in America that's a high jumper, I think, or a pole vaulter, was tested 33 times in three years. That's bullshit. Wow. That's bullshit. Wow. That's total bullshit. I had Victor Conte on my podcast. You know who he is? The Balco guy? Of course I know who he is.

Yeah. Yeah, he pushed all the Reuters ever, and then he's a drug tester. Well, now he's an anti-drug advocate. Yeah, mass murder, mass murder, you know, okay. He's reformed. Oh, of course. He's here for peace now. Exactly.

Yeah, he's an interesting case, right? He's reformed. He's here for peace now. Exactly. Yeah. He's an interesting case, right? Because he was a guy that developed a designer steroid that was undetectable. Which they still have. You think they still have those? How they break in world records and not bunk in the drug test. You know, I was born at night, Joe. But I wasn't born last night.

See, I was born at night, Joe, but I wasn't born last night. See, I was. And I like to believe that people are just hard-working folks who eat right. You just keep believing that. Do you think it would be better if everybody just came clean and everybody just did whatever they wanted to do?

Exactly. I really do. Why is your dad, why possibly is your father going to an aging clinic and taking testosterone growth hormone? If it was that damn bad, your dad wouldn't be going there. There's a couple million people. I know you're a stat guy. There's probably over two million people doing that annually. Why are they doing it?

That's a good point. It certainly helps you. It makes your brain function, everything's better. It really is. Your muscle, you got more muscle. You got better bone density. You got better sex drive. You get better drive period.

Better immune system. My mind has never changed. That's my whole freaking problem. My brain's never changed since I was like 16. So your brain still functions the same way. It's the same way. I want to punch it in the face. You ever get around a person and you just look at them and go,

I'm going to kick your fucking ass. Because I don't know why they just, sometimes I get like cat brain, I just want to punch them. I can't do that. Do you think that's roid rage? It's not roid rage. It's just when I was born.

I was that way when I was 10 years old. I'm that way now. I just see, sometimes I just go, I want to, and you know it's weird and I'm that way now. I just see, sometimes I just go, I want to, and you know it's weird because I can get around an old man,

no threat or nothing, I'll go, I want to punch this guy in the face. I'm serious. I mean, I know it sounds, but then I go,

I can't do that. I know I can't do that, but I'm going, oh, fucking. Because they're annoying. Or some women. I want to choke

his bitches. Jesus Christ. You say, one more word and I'm going to choke your ass. I mean, but I don't. There's enough in my brain to say, no, you're going to go to jail if you do that. Yeah. But that's how, I've never changed.

Right. And I don't know if that's a, you know, sometimes I think, gee, I wish I'd changed and be a little bit mellow like I'm supposed to be. Well, a lot of 68-year-old guys, they're slowing down, and they don't have a lot of zest for life. Grandpa turns into grandma. Yeah. It does happen, right? Yeah, that's right. Isn't that kind of weird, too, that you can go to any kind of nutrition store or vitamin store,

and the shelves are filled with muscle builders and recovery this and growth hormone that? And fake testosterone. Yeah. Well, and a lot of them turn out to be steroids. That's true. But then you go, it's against the law. Well, it is against the law, but USADA has a page. And when we had Novitsky on the podcast, this is when I found out about this,

I was blown away because they have a list. What was it like? It was over 1,000. Like more than 1,000 different products that have steroids in them that people are buying under the guise of just being some natural muscle builder. There you go. So there's probably thousands of people out here in America that said they're against taking drugs, but they're taking drugs. Right. Well, there's certainly a lot of people that, well, you know, there's a lot of people that are taking drugs, and they don't want to admit that they're taking drugs. Like, people want a drug-free America, but they want to drink beer, and they want to drink coffee, and they want to smoke cigarettes.

All these things are drugs. That's right. Right. Yeah, I've said that you go to a football game like Ohio State, and you've got 100,000 drunks boozed up and smoking cigarettes, watching 22 athletes on the field that are clean. That doesn't make any sense. They can't drive out the parking lot. Do you think that even for high school athletes that steroids are a good idea?

I think when you're able to vote, you ought to be able to do anything you want. I'd say at 18 years old, if you could drink, why couldn't you take roids? I still believe there should be the draft. I think that's what's wrong with America today. There's no draft. There's not enough people that have a father figure in this country, and I think if they won the Army, you'd eventually have a father figure. I

actually was a block tenor 12 years old. I attended a block during summer vacation, and then during school, the guy would pick me up, and I'd actually knock holes out. That thing there is called a knockout. I would knock out these blocks and put it in a wear belt and take it out. What's a block tender? What does that mean? A block tender, I carried block

and mixed mortar. So cement block? Yeah, 12 years old. That's 12 years old. I started working at 12 years old. I got a social security card at 12 years old. That's right. Wow. That's how I grew up. And I grew up by if I want to make money, I got to work. No, I had nothing. And, you know, my parents had money, but they partied. They were party animals. And so I didn't get nothing. I bought everything I've ever owned

since I was 14 years old. No one's ever given me nothing. People, you know, these guys, they, I pay them to lift. You know, if they make If they make a world record or get on our board down there, they get money. I would never take any money. I never took nothing. These guys get protein. They get free gear. I never took nothing. I don't owe anybody anything.

When I die, I won't owe anybody anything. So you think that, like, by saying that the draft exists, like, forcing people into the military, forcing them to serve, would at least give them some discipline and make them understand what hard work really is. This country has no discipline. You know, what's going on with the police force in America today, it's just a lack of common sense. And I mean authority. They don't represent authority. I grew up, I remember when I used to play baseball, I'll tell people this story. I was like

12 years old. And we played this game, if you hit a ball out of the yard, you're out. But if you hit inside the yard and got the second scored, you scored a run. It was just you against me with a neutral pitcher. And I slid in the second base. I was 12 years old and my neighbor was a high school senior. I remember he was probably

like 220 pounds. And he gets up and he said, you're out. And I said, I'm safe. And he slapped my neighbor was a high school senior. I remember he was probably like 220 pounds. And he gets up and he said, you're out. And I said, I'm safe. And he slapped me hard as he could slap me. And he goes, you're out. I was out. I couldn't kick his ass. That's how I grew up.

A pecking order. No one knows what a pecking order is. You know what a pecking order is. You know where you are. But is that good for society to have that kind of a pecking order? We wouldn't be ran over by all these countries right now if we had a pecking order. Look at the pecking order now. They're all, you know, you go to school because you got bullied. You know, I got kicked out of school in the first grade.

Okay? Not for a day. I got kicked out for the first grade. A kid stole my shoe. I'm going to tell my dad. I said, hey, this guy stole my shoe. It was on the other side of Columbus here, on the east side. And he says, well, I'll tell you what.

He says, if you tell me that tomorrow, I basically, I mean, I'm too. He basically said, if you tell me this tomorrow, I'm going to kick your ass. So I go to school. Kid tries to take my shoe. I punch him, get in a fight with him. The teacher breaks it up. I end up punching the teacher. So they take me down to the principal's office, and they said, you're kicking you out of school. So my mom says, for how long? and they said you're kicking me out of school

so my mom says for how long we're kicking him out of school I'm in first grade so we moved across town over here on the west side of Columbus but he wouldn't let me in school I had to set it at a freaking year I didn't start the school until I was 7 years old

wow from punching a teacher what kind of teacher can't take a 6 year old's punch exactly especially back then that seems ridiculous from punching a teacher. That's right. What kind of teacher can't take a six-year-old's punch? Exactly. Especially back then. Yeah. That seems ridiculous. But I still think, but, you know, no one has it.

There's no trades in America. You know, they're talking about this now. You don't have any tradesmen. If they went in the Army, at least you get two years, you can get a couple years of college-free education or something. Get something from the government

instead of a handout from the government. Well, some people think that mandatory military service would be good because then they would realize the consequences of war. They would really understand it, like Israel does. Like Israel, everybody has mandatory military service, and their patriotism is at a very high level because of that. Because they realize they're all connected in this giant army. When the army goes to war, that literally is them. I believe the same thing.

I just think it would change. And I think, like I said, this country's so sick, your kids are bullied. They got these things because your kids are bullied. Well, I'd rather be the bully than to be bullied. I bullied everybody I could and the bigger people bullied me that's just the way it was

is that good though? I know my role I know where I stood in society I wasn't a little bitch and acted like I run my mouth to you and you touch me you know what I mean

I go call the cops you beat my ass up I said fuck that guy beat my ass up that's just the way it goes I mean I got 13 teeth, okay? How do you think I have 13? That's why I got 13 teeth

from running my mouth. And I don't have no regrets. I don't have no regrets. They taught me lessons. Is that the only way to learn lessons, though? I think it's a damn good way. I think it's a good one. You can't think you're something that you're not. That's true. That is a problem.

Just know what you really are. That's all that matters. Well, I think a lot of people think there's something other than what they really are because they're not tested. How many people in this life go through difficult physical struggles on a regular basis? it's one of the main

things that human being especially men one of the main thing that men lack in life is very difficult physical struggles that test your character exactly right but being a bully doesn't test your character well somebody's got to be a bully what's all that usc fighters in the cage well once they get in there but that's competition i know i mean i know they're great guys outside the cage you know matt brown you know they're all nuts you know he's a great guy they get crazy looking eyes real quick he's got crazy eyes yeah you fuck with matt brown that's a big mistake but i mean that's a real that's a test and you got to be tested yes and you know what it don't like i say the old thing it don't matter if you get knocked down can you

get back up yeah nothing i've got back up two million times i never you know i don't matter if you get knocked down. Can you get back up? Yeah. I've got back up two million times. I never, you know, I don't give a damn. I mean, honestly, it don't matter. You know, like I always said, like if Kevin Randall beat my ass, well, so what? He beat a hundred other people's ass. I'm just that long list. So if he beat my ass, would I feel bad? No. I'd kind of feel honored.

Oh, I got Kevin Randall that kicked my ass. Well, that's because you could overcome that kind of shit. You've been through shit like that before. Oh, I got Kevin Randall to kick my ass. Well, that's because you could overcome that kind of shit. You've been through shit like that before. You understand what it's like to have a bad moment in life, and it's not going to wreck you. But that's what I see. You brush yourself off. Yeah.

That's the problem with people when their children get bullied, and they send them to some kind of school because they're bullied. I would be embarrassed. My father sent me because I got bullied. I mean, I blew my own brains out. Do you have kids? No. No, I should have never had kids, so I never had kids. Wow. How did you manage to get through without knocking up one check?

My wife didn't want to have kids, and I didn't want to have kids. And she grew up pretty poor, and like four or five brothers. Her mom raised her because her dad got killed in a car wreck at two. And I never wanted kids. I mean, my life's full, okay? I don't have time for kids. I wouldn't have time to be a good father. I knew that.

So why would I have kids? Well, that's a very rational way of looking at it. I've been married like 43 years. Wow. And I managed to do that because I date a lot. Jesus. That's a smart way of looking at it do you have like when you when you look at your life i mean at 68 years old you've accomplished so much you have this great reputation in in power lifting and you know just in in helping people and athletes especially in

mma i mean when i talk about you to the MMA fighters who know you, you have a fantastic reputation. I mean, people just nod their head and like, that guy's the shit. He knows his stuff. Do you have goals at this point in your life? Yeah, I still got goals because we've got to keep a couple of products I want to get out before I die. I've got a mechanical reverse hyper that you talk about. It should be in hospitals all over the world.

A mechanical one so it does it without you lifting weights? Yes. Is that the idea? I could stand you up and it would put you in place. It can move your legs back and forth until you get well. Then it would assist and then it would have resistance. So for someone who's like maybe too weak to actually lift the weights up themselves? Exactly.

Like if you couldn't move your legs, this is your legs. I could move your legs. You say, okay, that's it. Okay, that's it it then week after week until we finally get that full range of motion once we gain full range of motion then we could put a resistance mechanical resistance for you picking up two pound three pound or whatever but but the static dynamic developer i'm coming out was going to revolution on strength training for every sport well i'm interested to see that do you do you have that here? No, we've got it on film.

We can show you a little bit on film. But when you feel it, you will not believe it. Yeah, I'm very curious. I'm very curious to see what that's like. Yeah, and I've got one more book coming. I'm writing a track book right now, and I'm pretty much done with this. I'll send it to the editor and have it.

Track and field? Track. Not field, just track for sprinting and long distance. And just about developing strength? Developing strength and reducing injuries. There's so many injuries. Now what about in MMA? Do you think there's a way to reduce injuries in MMA through powerlifting?

I think it's far too much. Really? Yeah. I think it's far a little bit too much probably. I used to talk to guys way back in the military. His camp was big. And the guy, because it was 95% a fight. Yeah.

You know, he would go there. He was a K-1 fighter. And he said, I think you've got to slow some of that down. Because, you know, they say in boxing, it's the fights that don't get you. It's the sparring. Yes. So cut some of the sparring. Work on skill and, you know, work on your skill.

Well, it's interesting that you say that because that's the trend now. Donald Cowboy Cerrone, who's never looked any better than he does right now. He's on a tear. He said he stopped sparring. He doesn't spar. He says, all I do is do drills. He goes, I already know how to fight. I already know I'm tough. He goes, I don't waste myself in the gym. We have the greatest squatters ever

in the history of the sport and we don't squat. We sit on boxes. We don't do regular squats. What do you mean? We sit down on a box. you're sitting on a chair. We roll back and then stand back up. That's how we do all of our training until we go to a contest. Then you've got to do a squat. We don't do any regular deadlifts with a bar and real weights.

None. And our top five average is 890, and top 10 is 866. So what do you do if you don't do regular deadlifts? We do bands over the bar in power racks we use two or three different bands over the bar meaning elastic bands it's 220 pound attention like if you picked up um you know 200 on the bottom you stand up it's 440 right okay or we got stronger bands we use all the different kind of bands and and uh we just do a lot of stuff like that so what what that means to people that are listening to this when you have these elastic bands on the bar it makes it more difficult when

you get up to the top of the range of motion that's the same with chains too right yeah it's better than chains it's called accommodating resistance but it builds tremendous acceleration if you use a lot of band you have tremendous acceleration to the very bottom because you have to outrun the bands right right so yeah you have to outrun the bands. Right, right. So, yeah, you have to outrun the bands, and then when you get to the top, it becomes more difficult. So when you have just a regular deadlift or a regular squat that doesn't have any of those bands, at the end you have more horsepower. Exactly. Huh.

So you don't do any regular squats or any regular deadlifts? No. And you think that helps your athletes, that preserves athletes as well? The greatest squatters, the greatest male, female powerlifter. We had the number one,

number two greatest squatter of all time. And I've got a 165 I think will become, he's going to be the greatest squatter of all time. I think he can squat

955 pounds at 165. 955 pounds at 165. That's insane. He's done 890, he did that easy. That's incredible. To keep him out of jail. Oh, he's crazy. He's done 890. He did that easy. That's incredible. To keep him out of jail. Oh, he's crazy?

Yeah, a little bit. How weird. Wow. What's it say? We'll just say he's crazy. I understand. Yeah. Well, I would imagine.

Well, I mean, isn't that the case with almost anybody who's like at the very top levels of anything? Normal people only give you normal results. Ooh, that's a good quote. That's a good quote. That needs to be a meme. That's right. Normal people only give you normal results. I don't need normal people.

Yeah. That's an interesting way of looking at it. Well, I mean, that's what I was saying before, that you're kind of insulated. Because you're in this world of savages. You know? Like, in your attitude about things. Like, this is not an attitude that most people have. In 2016, everybody's worried about everybody's feelings.

Everybody's worried about being sensitive. You know, this is the time of toxic masculinity. People are worried about masculinity. Strange, right? For a guy like you, isn't it strange? I think the world's screwed up, yeah. You know, I told Tom to buy all these books from my straw men back in 1900 and they all look like mma fires today men don't look like that today like

they did back then you know long before roids they look like they were loaded to the gills and there wasn't any roids back you know it's probably food was better maybe i don't know but they all had an attitude you know everybody like a kick your ass so i. I don't know. But they all had an attitude. Everybody looked like they'd kick your ass. I don't know. Like I said, the world's too soft, man. It's got to be hard. You can't have an easy life. Because once things get hard, you're screwed.

You're not accustomed to it. I see that in my sport. I watch guys who accelerate them so fast, and it gets hard, they quit. Be like in a fight. Oh, I'm done. I just quit. A tap. I'm out of here. Punch me in the face one time time i'm done with that stuff right now it drives me insane because work hundreds

of hours to get these guys super super strong and then they quit but doesn't that make you appreciate a guy like a matt brown or someone like who is like a legitimate i got a lot of respect for matt brown i got a lot of respect for all finders. I mean, you know, any fighter, I don't care what level, but they get in the UFC cage, I got a lot of respect for them. But in 2016, that's a rare type of person, right? In this ever-softening world. Don't you think that's why MMA is so popular? Because everybody wants to be that, but they don't want to go through that work.

It's also they recognize how unique it is. They recognize, I mean, there's a lot of people that I'm friends with that like MMA that they don't have those qualities themselves. So they appreciate them in other people. That's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. I've always admired, I'm a huge boxing fan, like Triple G and guys like that. Me too.

So Roman Gonzalez, classical boxers. I mean, I like the classic because you go try to do it, it's not easy to do. That footwork's insane. And everybody thinks, oh, even boxing, that's a brutal sport. And they think MMA's, I don't know what they think that is. But dude, there's a lot of, so much technique. It's more

technique than anyone would ever really imagine. It's ridiculous. You know, another thing that fighters are getting into a lot lately is yoga. That's a big one. Did you ever mess with that? Well, no, I haven't. I probably should. I know Matt was doing yoga, right? Hot yoga? Yeah. We got some track girls who do hot yoga, and they say it's really, really good.

Well, it's a great thing for your back. That's one of the reasons why I brought it up. It's amazing for lengthening your spine. There's certain decompression exercises that you do in yoga where you grab the bottom of your heels from underneath and you're pulling and straightening your legs out. You literally feel your back going like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.

I do it all the time, and I can feel my back, especially in the middle. I feel it separating, and it makes a little pop, almost like you're getting adjusted by a chiropractor. Is that something you would recommend to your athletes? Is that something you might think about? I think anything can help. If it's not an advantage, it's a disadvantage. Anything can help a person. I want them to do.

Now, what about other kinds of therapy, like cold therapy, ice baths, cryotherapy, things along those lines? I've had prolotherapy, stem cell, platelet injections. If you can think of it, I've done it. I don't want your cat or readers to hear everything I've done because they would probably have me locked up. What have you done that would have you locked up? I've used arsenic and strychnine injections. What?

Strychnine? Arsenic, strychnine. Arsenic and strychnine. That's right. Why would they inject you with poison? Because it raises your red blood cell count. I've used nitroglycerin cream. Nitroglycerin cream?

Yeah, because, you know, it'll stimulate blood flow and start your heart up. And I use it because I broke my back, and I didn't want to admit it. I broke my back the second time. So I use it, and I told my friend who's a professor at Ohio State. I said, don't go nowhere. Let's see what this does. I mean, I was ready to be for three hours.

It felt like you were hitting me in the head every heartbeat. Just hit me in the temple. But I've done it all. There's nothing I haven't tried. I did an electric statement. It's called Mega Wave. It lengthens out the muscles. Tom did it for, what, 15 seconds? I did it for 96 minutes.

What does it do? It lengthens out the muscles. Literally straighten out your leg right off the ground. It's electrocuting you. And for six-minute segments, and I did 96 minutes. So it's electrical muscular stimulation. Yeah, but it lengthens. It lengthens it.

Yes, and I should have never done it because I think I've got too many injuries, you know. And it basically tore. It popped my hips and my shoulders out of socket. What? Yeah. It popped. My and my shoulders out of the socket. What? Yeah. It popped. My hip bone sticks out. It's not right here.

It's my hip bone. You're crazy. Your whole body is like a walking medical encyclopedia of injuries. You know, you got to try it, right? Yeah, I guess. What did the road warriors say? Desperate men do desperate things. Yeah.

I've been very desperate all my life what's what's worked the best for you did stem cells work out well for you well i'm finding out because what has been about three weeks i got stem cell in both hips and my knee and my shoulder and what's wrong with your hips oh there's some squatting right just beating the crap out of myself it's all torn out i mean i'm short and it's real wide. It's all your powers right here. It's like you're fighting. So it's just all wear and tear. Wear and tear.

And do you feel any different? So I think it's starting to work. See, I wasn't allowed to take anti-inflammatories. I've been on anti-inflammatories since 1991 because I didn't really die. See, when I tore my knee off, I'm allergic to anesthesia. So I went back in. They gave me a spinal. Jesus Christ.

Yeah. So I went back in. They gave me a shot. They said to calm me down for surgery. Take the wires out of my knees, out of my knee. And, well, it put me to sleep. They gave me anesthesia. So I ended up getting trached.

Like, I'm jumping around. There's sticking chest tubes in me. And that really, that's how I got thoracic outlet they severed my intercostal nerves they severed your intercostal nerves yeah I've had at least 5 or 6 doctors tell me that's exactly what they did when they stuck the chest tubes in me

so at that point 91 and I'm going to tell you about my gym and this is why the training partners I had I did stuff at 50 no one's ever done and this is how because I was in intensive care for about four days and i was in hospital three more they and i got i didn't need a trach i could talk because i was trained all my life so they take my throat shut you got a hole this big i got stitches in my side they take me out

of the hospital to the gym that's on tuesday well that sunday i go to the gym and i go i walk i'm on crutches, I got my knee, you know, they find out around my knee, and he goes, you're maxing out, you know. Motherfucker. And I says, what? And they lay me down, I've been street 55. Who are they? Who's they? My training partners. They're out of their fucking mind.

Exactly. They tried to kill me. They tried to kill me. That's what you gotta have. You gotta have people like that. They drove me to the point that, when they told got to have. You've got to have people like that. They drove me to the point that when they told me to do this, they kicked me out of my own gym if I didn't do it. They just told me to mail the renin. That's just so ridiculous.

But that's what a training partner is. Mail the renin. That is so ridiculous. Well, I understand your attitude now. Well, you know, if you don't have an attitude, you don't have anything. Yeah. I've had some great results with stem cells. I think stem cells are probably going to help you quite a bit.

You ever have it in the neck? No. Oh, okay. I just had it in my shoulder. I had it in my knee and in my hip. Okay. But the big one was my shoulder. Man, my shoulder.

My hip was just a minor soreness. I would do it preventative and i definitely had an impact on it my knee i just have an on and off pain for years in my knee completely cured that up and my shoulder it healed it like nothing i've ever done in my life wow yeah i got for the brink of needing shoulder surgery to no pain at all well this shoulder it gives out of place every freaking day. I separate my shoulders. I got a big guy puts it in every day. So I'm hoping.

Every day. It could be put in every day. What pops it out? Just the strain. I mean, just strain the ligaments and tendons, I think, over the years. So it's not even anything you're doing physically, like not even lifting weights? I think it's just a constant wear and tear. You know, I mean, it's just like playing pro football, you know what I mean?

But I've done this for all those years. I mean, I was a national record holder in 1971. Wow. And then, so in 2003 or 2004, whatever the hell, I don't even know where it was, 2005 or something, I was still top ten. Wow. So do you do any exercise at all now? Yeah, I train just small crap. Like what do you do? I like to walk on tires. I do you do any exercise at all now? Yeah, I train just small crap. Like what do you do now?

I like to walk on tires. I do belt squats. I had to quit deadlift because my knee was so bad, but I want to get back where I can deadlift. I love to deadlift. And deadlift, you know, just kick your ass. I mean, if you can deadlift, you can still fight. Right. If someone attacks me.

Right, right, right. Yeah, which is quite possible. Because of the way you talk. After you hear this podcast. Kick any old woman's ass any woman wow that's amazing strong words so like what like when you lift weights today like you lift in max are you maxing out or just no i mean just getting some exercise and you know because i love i mean my thing was squatting the deadlift i just you know top 10 squatter right off in my you know

almost my first meet but i mean when the neck if you're gonna pass out you just have, you know, top 10 squatter right off in my, you know, almost my first meet. But, I mean, when the neck, if you're going to pass out, you just have to, you know, if it comes the time, you just got to stop. Now, when you're talking about doing the reverse hyper with that neck harness on, does that help you? We actually do a bunch more severe thing. We do neck deadlifts out of my bell squat machine with a neck harness. What's a neck deadlift? You put a neck deadlift? Oh, so you're deadlifting just with your neck? With your neck.

How much weight are you doing that with? On that machine, the machine weighs about 40 pounds, which is a whole lot. Yeah, 40 pounds is a lot to be hanging off of your neck. Yeah, plus the cage. Right. What, 95 pounds? 195 pounds? 95. 95 pounds? 195 pounds? 95.

95 pounds? Are you still doing that? Yeah. It seems to make me feel better. It makes you feel better? Mm-hmm. It makes your neck feel better? Yeah. That's interesting.

Yeah. Because that would be like counterintuitive. A lot of people would think that, a lot of people think you shouldn't lift any weights with your neck. Like I talked to Kelly Starr

about it. You know that eight-way neck machine? You know that thing? Oh, yeah. He says don't ever do that. It's bad for your neck. And then I've talked to other people who are athletes, who are fighters, and said it's one of the best things you could do for

your neck. You got, that's the two, in the NFL, the problem, they don't train their neck anymore. Remember how big everybody's neck was? Yeah. What do you do, Russell? If you was real big, what do you do? Play football? You don't see that anymore. The neck is the two most vulnerable pieces you lower back in your neck. Right. And no one one trains them because they're afraid to.

Right. Well, that's what I keep hearing, that it's bad for your neck to lift weights with it, which seems so weird because it's not bad for your lower back to do deadlifts. It's not bad for your lower back to do, like, reverse hypers or Roman chair sit-ups or anything like that. No, I think a guy called Paul Andersnes, he might be as strong as you, he never lived way back in the 50s, but he thought the neck was the most neglected muscle and it should be the most used muscle.

Because what happens to us, we have bad necks. Yeah. Because if you don't do anything, you'll get a bad neck. So do you think, like, it's a real issue with grapplers. Like grapplers almost always get cervical herniations. Do you think that a lot of that could be prevented if you just strengthened up your neck? Exactly. Yeah.

Well, you know, my friend John Sater, I mean, to this day, 60 something, he gets out and does neck bridges for five minutes. And does 500 Hindu squats. He's in his 60s. 500 Hindu squats? Yeah. In a row? That's right. That's insane.

He does that. He gets out of bed and he does that every day. Five minutes of neck bridge and 500 Hindu squats. That's amazing that he could do them in a row. I could do 200 in a row and then my fucking legs turn to rubber. Wow, I've got to step up my game. 500? Wow.

And how old is he? I'd say 62 or 63. Is he on the shit? I don't know. You don't know? You don't ask him? You don't talk to older guys? I don't talk to, about other people.

He's an actual judo coach for seven years. Oh, okay. That's, well, that's a big one for grappling. A lot of old school grapplers, in particular, love the Hindu squads. Yeah. But that's amazing that he can still do neck bridges and everything like that. And he's that age? Yeah.

I mean, he's done, I mean, he's a black belt in judo, samba, jiu-jitsu, and he's a black belt in Japanese Muay Thai. He still trains? He trains all the time. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. He just had some hip surgeries, but he's back now. I think he can roll around a little bit.

Wow. Hip surgery and a replacement? Yeah. That's another real common one. Mark Coleman's got a hip replacement, too. So common, a hip replacement. See, I go into the shoulder, but everything else lasted that's interesting way past everybody else well what they're hoping now is that through the use of stem cells that your body's going to be

able to regenerate tissue in a lot of areas where it couldn't before that's going to prevent a lot of replacements and a lot of surgeries and a lot of things they think that sometime in the future that stem cell based therapies are going to eliminate a giant percentage of surgeries and a lot of things they think that sometime in the future that stem cell based therapies are going to eliminate a giant percentage of surgeries that people have i hope so that's why i did it yeah no i hope so too i'm curious i mean is if anybody's a canary in the coal mine it's you yeah no shit we'll find out one more time i get well i want to live i want i want deadly i'm gonna go to meet and deadlift so you just want to deadlift till you drop yeah that's what i do i don't know anything else well is there anything else you want to say to all the people listening out here no just uh no just good luck and don't

be afraid to try you know keep trying never give up people give up man they give up and no one should give up well listen man you are a very unique character, and I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me and do this. I've been wanting to talk to you for a long time. Thank you so much for making that machine because that machine has helped me so much. It built so much strength in my lower back and gave me so much relief from lower back issues that I had. I have one in my studio. Before I do the podcast, Jamie will tell you,

I do that fucking thing all the time. And anybody who's got a lower back problem, I go, come on, come on back. And I show them it and I'm like,

this thing, get it, put it in your garage, you need one of these. Yep, it's great. Well, man, I really appreciate you coming here.

I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Big fan. Thank you, sir. So we're going to check out your gym. Let's go for a little tour of the gym.

We'll make a little video of that. Thanks, man.