The Joe Rogan Experience - #908 - Leah Remini

Episode Date: January 30, 2017

Leah Remini is an actress, producer, author, and comedian. Her new show "Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath" is a documentary series that can be seen on A&E.

James is a wild man. You don't understand. And you're still getting laid. It's crazy. Look at him. You are? Three, two, one. We're live. Gotta change subjects. Okay. Leah Remini.

Gotta abandon all that crazy talk we were just talking about. I thought it was good talk. It was. It was definitely good talk. First of all, it's good to see you. You too. I haven't seen you in a long time. You look great. You do too.

Thank you. I haven't seen you since King of Queens. It's been a long time. That's crazy. And I found out about, you know, the whole Scientology thing. You look great. You do too. Thank you. I haven't seen you since King of Queens. It's been a long time. That's crazy. And I found out about the whole Scientology thing. I knew you were into it back then, but it was one of those things where I'd heard about it, and then I met you, and I'm like, oh, she's pretty fucking normal.

First Scientology, right. Well, I met John Travolta once too, and I said the same thing. Like, she's pretty normal. Nice guy. Kelly Preston is pretty normal. She seems normal. Yes. once too and I said the same thing like pretty normal nice guy Kelly Preston is pretty normal she's normal yes you know it's I guess you get deeper get to know them really well and it might get a little weird yes yeah because the thing is Scientologists are good people they really are it's they they really as I

did believed that we were doing amazing things for the world so they go into it thinking I'm helping myself and I'm helping others. Right. But then as you, like you said, as you get more and more, and by the way, you don't really get close to Scientologists when you're a Scientologist. When you're a non-Scientologist. When you're a non-Scientologist, correct. Like everything that I did and they do is for the purpose of setting a good example, being a good person, being a good friend. So to get you in. To indoctrinate people. There's a purpose in that.

Like I would never tell when I was in a non-Scientologist my real problems. It would be kind of bad for the church to ever appear human to a non-Scientologist. It would be setting a bad example. Like it would actually be considered like a transgression. If I told you, Joe, you know, oh, yeah, I'm fighting with my mother, I'm fighting with my husband, or I would never tell you those types of things because it would be bad PR for the church. Wow. So that's something that

you're taught. Correct. Now you, you kind of grew up in it. Yes. How old were you when you? Nine, I think when my mother married. So you don't even remember pre-Scientology. A little bit. And you know, what I remember pre-Scientology was, you know, I had a very Catholic Sicilian father who, you know, believed in punishment, believed in not talk, like, did I talk to you? I don't know why you're talking to me, like that kind of guy, right? Like my dad sits at the head of the table, and then we don't talk back at all, or, you know, so that is kind of what I knew, and then we were baptized as Catholics because my mother wasn't really religious. My mother's Jewish, she's, you know, so she, but she didn't have any kind of religion growing up. My father, of course,

was Catholic. So we got baptized as Catholics. And the only time we really went to church was with our grandma. We went to visit her in, you know, in the city and my dad on holidays. So that's really kind of all I remember pre Scientology. And my mother meeting my stepdad, he was in Scientology, and he got her in as well as like, right away, right away. Yes. So that was like part of the deal. Correct. Yeah. And by the way, Joe, like we went from like, don't talk until you're spoken to, to, hey, we see you as spiritual beings. We want you to talk to us. We want you to communicate. Like you're just, you're not, you're not children. You're, you know, spirits in a little body. And so immediately that kind of indoctrination begins

that you're not a child. And so, you know, as children, you have kids, you know, they always want to be grown up. So that, that really starts to work this kind of idea that you're an elitist, that your ego becomes kind of stroked as a kid. Like you're very powerful and you returned and you came back and you found yourself back. You picked your mother because you knew she would get into Scientology. And you're very strongly and you're very strong, Nicole, to my sister. You picked your mother. You picked your mother for this reason to find your way get into Scientology. And you're very strong, Leanne. You're very strong, Nicole, to my sister. You picked your mother. You picked your mother for this reason, to find your way back to Scientology. Now, as a child, remember, you want to be more important than you are.

Kids are always trying to exercise their power, you know. So that speaks to something inside of you that, like, oh, I'm bigger than a kid. I'm more than a kid. I'm a spiritual being in a little body. And so it sets up that kind of indoctrination very early on. Did you like it because it made you, when you were young, it made you feel like, okay, now I can express myself better. I don't feel suppressed. Yes, exactly.

Because, you know, again, I'm going from a dad who tells me to, you know, shut the F up and talk when I talk to you. And you sit in that chair and you don't have any thoughts worth listening to, to you're very much an important being. You're a big being. That's a word that's used a lot. Those words, big beings, you're a big being. And so, yes, you start to feel very important. You start to feel that you're powerful. These are not bad things to make kids feel, that you're powerful. These are not bad things to make kids feel, but this is the way cults work.

And you don't realize that, Joe, until you're out. You don't realize any of this was really going on because I've heard people call it a cult throughout my 30-plus years, and I was offended by it. I was deeply offended by it. And I couldn't even allow myself to believe that I was in a cult. And so all these epiphanies are only happening, you know, after the fact.

Well, I was watching a scholarly documentary once on Christianity, and they were referring to it as the cult of Christianity. And that word is the correct word, if you want to just look at it in terms of the actual literal definition of it. But it's automatically got this negative connotation. You say the word cult and people think you're brainwashed, you're lost. Right. But there's a natural inclination that people have to be tribal. There's a natural inclination people have to be on a team and we like it when we're all together.

Yes. I know you're a Scientologist. I'm a Scientologist. We're together in this thing. Everybody else doesn't get it. Right. Yes. And that's a good feeling, right?

Yeah, and you're taught that. It's not even just that you think it, Joe. You are taught that. You are the elite of the world. And by the way, you're going in every single day. It's not like I'm going Easter and I'm going Christmas. You know, it's an everydayness. So what did you do every day?

Like when you say you went in every day. So I'd go do King of Queens. And then after rehearsal, I'd have to drive to Hollywood and put in my two and a half hours a day. Two and a half hours every day? Yeah. Minimum. No, minimum. Okay.

So then if I couldn't, like let's say on a tape day, I couldn't. You know, I was there from 9 in the morning until 10 at night, as you know. I'd have to make up the time on the weekends or I'd have to make up time on my hiatus. So I'd be there all day and night. So what if you went to Hawaii on vacation or something? Very rare that Scientologists would go on vacation. I'd have to make up the time. I'd have to make up the time when I got back.

I'd have to put in the time. I'd have to make up the time when I got back, I'd have to put in on weekends, like, let's say if my schedule was, you know, 12 to 2.30 to go in, then I'd have to go in 1 to 6 or 1 to 10 or 9 to 10. So there's an everydayness of this indoctrination. It's not only that, there's its policies, right? You're studying the policies all day and all night. You're looking up words you don't understand. You're being tested. Like after you read an L. Ron Hubbard, you know, L. Ron Hubbard's policy, then you're tested. You go into another room and they go, what is the definition of this? What is the definition of that? So it's almost worse. We had a cult expert on and he said it's worse. I told him it's worse because you actually brainwash yourself because you have to study the policies of the church and then you get tested on it and you have to look up words you don't understand. You have to put them in sentences.

You have to write essays. You have to do clay demonstrations. So you're really brainwashing yourself and you're speaking all the same language. You're all working towards one goal and that is very intoxicating. Like it is to feel like you're saying to be tribal to be part of something imagine being something part of something that you think and and are told and are reading every day is the most important thing that's going to save mankind you are doing the work that no other group is doing and so you believe that you start you want to believe that you want to believe I'm more than just an actress I'm more than just this I'm saving the planet and now all this stuff that you're doing you're going in for

two and a half hours every day and are you trying to move your way up the ranking system like I know there's some there's a chart right right and everybody's a star off at well there's like uh the in doctor like the the little courses they're called self-improvement courses and these are the things that i people like me would say like when people would ask me about the money right i say well there's courses for 35 65 you know it's all it's very affordable like these these are the lines that we're taught to say it's not an outright lie it's it's omitting a lot of data right right because really the the next the follow-up to that is but when you're really a Scientologist it's going to cost you a half a million easy or whatever it's

going to be but it's preset prices so you start on these self-improvement courses and then you get onto this actual chart called the bridge and um the bridge is very uh precise nobody's doing different things you're all working at the bottom all the way up to the top which was um ot8 that's like the most enlightened how many people are ot8 uh not a lot anymore because the people who were in Scientology in the 50s, 60s, and 70s who got to OT8 were like, this is some bullshit. It wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And so a lot of them left. At a time, I'm sure Scientology was big because it almost spoke to the time that it was, you know, when people wanted free thinking, but also wanted to be morally on the right path, you know, not doing drugs like they were, you know, maybe not part of that, but they kind of didn't want to be held by, you know, a certain religion, but they did

still want spirituality in their life. And I think it spoke to the people of the time. spirituality in their life and I think it spoke to the people of the time. So I don't think you're you're going to find new Scientologists you know in the world. So do you think the internet took a big chunk out of that? Yes because of the information. Information was very hard to get. For example oh yeah for example let's say you were a Scientologist and one day I just didn't see you and I said hey hey, what happened to Joe? Where's Joe? Why is he not in Scientology anymore? Oh, they tell me whatever they want to tell me about you to discredit you. He's an enemy to the church and here are the reasons why.

And they could say anything and they do say anything that immediately makes me not want to talk to you ever again. And then become an enemy. You're an enemy. Once you're an enemy, I can't actually talk to you. I can't actually talk to you ever again. And then become an enemy, really? You're an enemy. Once you're an enemy, I can't actually talk to you. I can't actually talk to you. The policy says that once you are declared, labeled a suppressive person, my association with you would then make me a suppressive person and then me an enemy. So I can't actually talk to you. But they can tell me whatever they want to tell me about you. And so I couldn't actually find out

are these things true about Joe but now with the internet with social media it's harder and harder to to tell people whatever you want to tell them about the person because the information is there you have to want to seek it out I didn't seek it out I didn't want to seek it out and when I did seek it out and I'd go to the church they'd say that's a lie that's not true here's the real data and they have actual doctored you know they actually doctor things that make you believe I mean you don't you're not going to go and take it to an analyst you're not going to go take it to somebody and go is this a real document you you tend to believe the church you're you're in and raised in most of your life now it had to have been positive in some way for you of

course it gave you some confidence it gave you a true belief in yourself and that you're on the right path because I had seen some interviews with you where you were talking about it when you were in it. And you genuinely seemed to believe that it was very beneficial to you. Of course, there's basic morals and basic tools to help you in your life. But remember, I wasn't educated. Most Scientologists are not educated. You mean as far as like college education? Any education.

Yeah. I left school in the eighth grade. Really? Yeah. Scientology does not value a traditional education. Any education. Yeah. I left school in the eighth grade. Really? Yeah. Scientology does not value a traditional education. They value your education in Scientology.

So you never went to high school? Never. Whoa. How old were you? I don't know. How old were you in high school? Look, I don't even know. Eighth grade is like 13, I think, right?

Yeah. So when you were 13, you just stopped going to school? Stopped going to school and I was doing Scientology and I was working, like literally working, selling car insurance and and you were working at 13 for scientology companies and so was my sister holy yeah but uh and people ask like well how come the um nobody did anything how come child protective services who's calling them who's saying and not to mention we're we're then lying our parents are lying saying they're getting a private education they're getting tutored at home or they're going to a Scientology school which is partially

true or I got my GED you know so I did things like that too to but the original question what was it because it was about me learning. Well, it was about, wait, what was your original question? Cause I was answering something. Well, I was saying that it had to be of some benefit to you. Right, exactly. Cause it gave you confidence. It gave me confidence cause I thought I was getting, you know, I'm looking up these big

words, I'm using a dictionary. I'm like, you're doing more school than you could have ever imagined. Even as you know, and, and you, um, I started to feel like, oh, I'm, I'm really accomplishing something. I'm so, yes, there, there are benefits to it, but I didn't realize because I was a kid that the things you're talking about that were beneficial were in the real world. I thought they were, they were invented by L. Ron Hubbard as most people do believe that. So you're saying, were these things beneficial? I would have learned these things at Sunday school.

I would have learned these things by being a good human being, being around other people. But regardless, if I was brainwashed into believing that I was doing great things and learning great things, then that does work. You know what I mean? Yeah. It does work if I say, say hey joe if you do these steps you take these steps and you really truly believe in me you can then attribute it to leah you can say leah is an amazing life coach she told me to do these things and without her i can't

you know what i'm saying so it but not knowing that it was available to me in the real world because i didn't i thought elron Hubbard had come up with these things mmm now when did it start to unravel for you well it's a like a law it's it wasn't just one thing I think people always think what was the one it wasn't just one thing was a slow process it was six years of me basically I was like begging them for these things not to be true that I was hearing about. Like what things? It was, for example, when I went to Tom Cruise's wedding and I saw the leader's wife wasn't there. And, you know, David Miscavige, who's the head of the Church of Scientology, his wife wasn't there. And when I asked the question and I said, where is Shelly?

Why is his assistant here? Scattered. People just scattered. And then I was told I didn't have the effing rank to be asking about the leader's wife. It wasn't that she was just an average person, that I didn't have the rank to ask about. You didn't have the rank? The rank. Wow. And so that was the beginning.

But then when I went to my friends. Now, when you're my friend, I consider you family. Like, I really do. I take my friends very seriously. And my friends of 35 years. You're looking at my sexy nails right now? Your what nails? My sexy nails.

Sexy nails? You do have very nice nails you didn't use the word sexy though you said nice uh well you know i'm different than other people when it comes to nails apparently because the conversation now when you say real what does that mean are they glued on no they're not glued oh then i'm appreciating them more oh okay we're finding out a lot about you i i'd like to do a whole a couple hours with you you talking about other things. Do I have to hold on to cans?

You don't have to hold on to cans, but you do have to wear a cologne. Because I'm not down with your non-cologne wearing. Okay? You're too cute for no cologne. Okay, so let me get back. What was I saying? David Miscavige. You didn't have the right to question him.

Yeah, but then seeing my friend's reaction to it. Where I said, well, you need to get involved in this. I think there's something really off with David Miscavige. What did you think was going on? Well, I didn't know what was going on. I saw Tom have an executive role in our church, which I had a problem with. Because remember, you learn very early on what L. Ron Hubbard says is the law there's no it's not up for interpretation there's no assimilation of data it's just what it

says it's not what Joe thinks over on Hubbard said what Leah thinks it's what it says right and that's very strict that always, what does LRH say? Read it again. What does it say? And it's very tough. So I was very by-the-book person. I'm a by-the-book person, okay? If I have a recipe, I follow it exactly. I don't do pinches. I don't do that shit. I do exactly how it says in the recipe, and then I see how it goes after that. Scientology is about word for word. What does it say? My understanding and the policy is there is no celebrity that should be treated any differently than any parishioner. And I was seeing behavior and I was seeing things that wouldn't be OK, that are not OK for the average parishioner. seeing things that wouldn't be okay, that are not okay for the average parishioner, but were being made to be okay for Tom. And it didn't matter to me that he was Tom. To me, I saw him as a team

member in the Church of Scientology, and we were working on the same thing. I actually thought I was a better example of Scientology than he was, and I wrote reports on him, like internal reports on him, which I didn't realize were kind of getting me to be a target for the Church, and I wrote reports on him, like internal reports on him, which I didn't realize were kind of getting me to be a target for the church, because I didn't realize his position in the church. You wrote internal reports? Yes, we're all required to write reports on each other. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, there's a policy. There's a policy about writing reports. So if I, let's say you and I are Scientologists. Okay, you and I go out one night, right? Like not like that Joe. So no good, right?

You seem uncomfortable. No, no You did it because you said nice as opposed to that. I said that you said nice. I don't know if I said nice When I said, okay, I think I probably look at my sexy nails he said they're nice. They are nice. Yeah, they're beautiful Is that better. Mm-hmm It's okay. If you were cologne, I feel like you'd have better adjectives. Okay, okay Like are you a fine guy when your wife comes out and says how do I look Joe do you say fine? No, I see look great. You say great beautiful lovely. What do you want? It's very clinical Mm-hmm. Youends on who it comes from.

I think different adjectives, different words have different meaning depending on what person they come from and how that person, what the intent behind it. Don't you think? Well, beautiful, you look beautiful. I don't know, I guess yeah. I mean, Evangel says I look beautiful.

Let's go back to the internal reports on Tom Cruise. Okay, sorry, go ahead. So yeah, so let's say you and I went out. We just went out one night. We were going out for dinner. Right. A group of us. And something you didn't like.

And I saw you doing something that's not, like, for the book. I have to write a report on you. Are you allowed to drink? Not really. No. Okay, what if I got lit up? I'd probably write a report and say... Brought some shots over.

Come on, fuck it. LRH would love it. Okay, I'd say... Let's do it to LRH. Clink. Yes, so I'd probably write a report and say— Brought some shots over. Come on. Fuck it. LRH would love it. Okay. Let's do it to LRH. Clink. Yes. So then I write a report on you, and I say Joe was acting inappropriate. He was making fun of L. Ron Hubbard because you're not allowed to joke and degrade L. Ron Hubbard.

There's a policy called jokers and degraders. Jokers and degraders. Yes. You and I would be very much—I've been—yes. Have you been in trouble for that? Many times. So, OK, so I would have to write a report. It's called writing you up.

I'd have to write you up because let's say you went into like the next day for a session and you said they said, you know, they do the check. They do a check on you every day. Do you have an upset? Do you have a present time problem? Or are you withholding anything? Now, if you were a real Scientologist, you would know that you probably shouldn't be drinking and carrying on because there's a 24-hour rule. You can't drink 24 hours before you're going to be doing a service. Remember, you're required to go in every day. So you never can drink.

Right. And if you do, you consider it a transgression. So that's on your mind that you're withholding this information. Now, if you went on a vacation and you knew that you were going to make it up when you got back. Yeah, that's okay. Then you can have a couple of Mai Tais. Because you're not going in. Okay.

That's the only time then. Correct. Or if you're just not getting a service. But that's good. If you're not getting a service. But you do it every day. Correct. So you'd go in and you'd say, okay, so I went out last night. I ordered a bunch of shots and I made a comment about to L. Ron Hubbard or whatever.

And they'd go, okay, great. When was it? Who did you do it with? Who was there? They'd write down all the names. It's also being recorded. And they're writing everything down. Who knew about it will be the next question.

Who knew about it? You'd say, well, Leah was there. They'd go, Leah was there. Okay, interesting. Then that person's going to write, Leah knew about it and didn't do anything about it. Then I'd get pulled in. Why didn't you write a report on Joe? Because Joe just admitted that he was drinking and carrying on, and you didn't write him up.

Do you see what I'm saying? So it creates that kind of environment. So it's a rat environment. Correct. So I was writing up Tom and I was writing up David Miscavige. So what did you write up Tom for? Jumping on couches and being inappropriate. I thought he was being inappropriate.

What was he jumping on couches for? Well, he did Oprah. I thought it was a bad example. Oh, you wrote him up for that? For Oprah? I also wrote up John for Battlefield Earth. I thought it was... For the movie itself?

First of all, that movie was awesome. If you haven't seen Battlefield Earth, it's one of my favorite unintentional comedies. Don't even joke. No, it was terrible, but awesome, because it's so terrible. Ridiculous. It's so terrible, it becomes good.

It crosses over that roadhouse. It does. After a while, you're right. It does, yes. It's like, what's that movie with the dancing one with Elizabeth Berkley? Showgirls. Oh, Showgirls. Showgirls.

Yes. That's the best one. Yeah. That's probably the top. As far as a terrible movie that becomes awesome because it's so bad. You're like, what in the fuck were they doing? Right. And it's fantastic.

Exactly. You're like, this is, yes, I get it. Battlefield Earth is right up there. Right. So I did things like that. Not that I was a great example, nor am I a great example. So you wrote a whole thing about him jumping up on Oprah's couch yes but I also listen I gave myself up I you know I was ready I was writing myself up I was writing my

mother up I was writing my husband up he jumped up on Oprah's couch because he was in love right supposedly you know he jumped up you know they pulled me in and they said you know could it be that you're just not as high on a scale like in life? Like you're so basically they were saying, like, you're a bitch. So you can't understand. You can't understand that kind of love. Because I was like, right, I guess because I've been married 20 years. I don't understand jumping on a couch.

But I thought it was a it wasn't a good example because because I cared so much about my church and the work that we were doing and I didn't want the church to be seen as a joke or it's or one of its senior members which he's considered a senior Scientologist so you just thought it was inappropriate it was out of line yeah you felt like you had an obligation right I mean listen I'm not perfect I mean of course there's many things that would be considered a bad example in my listen, I'm not perfect. I mean, of course, there's many things that would be considered a bad example in my everyday. I'm not a great example. But at the time, I thought I was pretty pristine. But looking at it now, you feel like it's totally innocuous. He's just on a couch jumping around having a good time. Yes. But if you knew how serious Scientology

was about clearing the planet, it did not go with our intentions and our goals. So anyway, I was writing him up, and I was writing everybody up, and I was writing everybody up at the wedding because I thought our senior executives were, and I was like wiring them back from Italy from my hotel room, calling one of my closest friends who was a Scientologist, and I'm like, and then I need you to write this. I need you to write this verbatim. I need you to write this verbatim,

and I need you to get this to the watchdog committee, and I think I hurled the shirt. You were frantic? Frantic. I was frantic, and I was heartbroken. Because it's like seeing, if you believe that the C organization and the people at the higher, you know, that are senior executive strata of your church are living a pristine and perfect life that you're trying to aspire to, that you're spending your day and night and money and time. Like you, this is what we're trying to be. And I'm seeing not great examples of what this is now. Like it's

seen behind the curtain. I was like, I don't want to see this. And I really thought I was going to save the church. I thought my writing reports was like, I'm going to take over the church and I'm going to get it right by L. Ron Hubbard. I really still believed in the policies of L. Ron Hubbard. I just believe they were bending the rules for a celebrity. And I was like, he's a celebrity. Who gives a shit what he's doing? Like, he's a Scientologist first and a celebrity second to me. So that's why it's difficult.

I don't want to talk shit about another actor because we've all met asshole actors and we're not really supposed to be talking about them. Do you know what I mean? It's just you don't hear that a lot. You don't hear a lot of actors doing that to other actors. But for me, it was just a Scientologist. Right. So you take out these reports on him. I write these reports. I'm sent to Florida immediately, the mecca, the hub of Scientology.

Clearwater. That's right. For interrogations. No, and I mean like interrogations. So you have to fly out there. I fly out there. I'm in a room, you know, with cameras, with my person who is armed with information unbeknownst to me of a stack of reports that were written on me by everybody who worked for Tom. A stack.

Because Tom found out about your report, so he decided that everyone who works for him has to take out a report on you. I don't know what he knew, but that is that the church is very much involved with his life. He's staffed by people who work for the church. No non-Scientologist works for him. But it was if you say something bad about this person, you are talking about God. And I was asked, do you have sexual intentions towards him? What are your evil intentions towards him? What are your evil intentions towards him? What are your evil intentions towards David Miscavige? What are

your evil intentions towards L. Ron Hubbard? And it was three months of this. It was and I had to retract everything I said. I said I made it all up. I didn't see any of it to get out of there. And so then when I came back to L.A., they said they want to see you again here in Celebrity Center. So I went to Celebrity Center and they said, look, everything that was done to you was wrong. I was like, right. I know that. We just want to let it go. You need to let it go.

Because if the fact that you're not letting go means that you're guilty of the crimes that you're saying. I'm confused. They're saying that everything was wrong that was done to you in Florida. Why are they saying that? Because they wanted me to come back because I was kind of like, I'm not, when I came back from Florida, I was kind of not really a dedicated Scientologist anymore, but I wasn't doing anything to rock the boat with my family. How long were you in Florida for? Three months. Three months of dealing with this? Three months? Every day for three months three months of of dealing with this three months every day for three months i had to write apology 90 days so you're there for 90 days all you're talking about

is tom cruise it was during my hiatus holy shit yeah yeah yeah that's what i'm doing most of the time and and you have a family you're married my. My mother was there. My daughter was there. My husband was there. And how much of the day are you spending on this stuff? All day. All day every day. Did you see Defending Your Life? No.

Oh, God, you have to see it. What is it? It's a movie where Meryl Streep and I forgot the other guy. Anyway, they die and they go into the, you know, the holding cell, like, you know, where they're going to decide their fate. Are they going back to Earth, which is considered hell, where they're going to decide their fate. Are they going back to earth, which is considered hell, or are they going on to heaven? And Meryl Streep lived a pristine life, and they review your life, right? And they have judges and everything, right? So they review good moments and bad moments of your life, and they decide, are you going to go on? Are you going to go back to hell? And Meryl Streep was, of course, pristine.

But then the guy that he forgot, I'm just running. But, you know, they were looking at times where he didn't stick up for himself or where he pussied out of something. Right. And so they were judging him pretty harshly. Right. They were like, you need to come back in the morning. And like it was like an all day of like we're reviewing 120 days of your life. Right. Right. Meryl Streep, they looked at like five days and they're like, don't worry, just come back when you can. was like an all day of like we're reviewing 120 days of your life right right merrill street they looked at like five days and they're like don't worry just come back when you can i was that was me like my mother was there to do some fluff thing and she was like oh come have lunch with me and my person was like be back in 10 minutes leah go get a sandwich and eat in the elevator and you need to be back here in 10 minutes it was like for me it was like defending your life because my mother was

just like she had she was she didn't know what was going on. You don't usually tell your family what you're doing. I wouldn't tell my husband what was happening to me because I didn't want to create. Can you imagine this? Did you meet your husband in Scientology? No, my husband was out. He was never in. How is that possible?

But I made him a Scientologist. Oh, you made him one? I made him a Scientologist, which is good because he was still kind of cool You know what I'm saying So he wasn't like He was still kind of freaky a little bit You know still believed in slapping an ass once in a while So like I kind of got like the good of both worlds

Best of both worlds You can't slap asses if you're in Scientology No it's considered aberrated What about choking Absolutely not. It would be, honestly, you would be considered like you really, there's something really wrong with you. Okay. Yeah.

Are you a slapper? No. Oh, I didn't think so. You say things like nice. Yeah, nice. Anyway, so you're there for 90 days. Yeah. You're there for 90 days. And. You're there for 90 days.

And I'm not telling my family what I'm going through. I'm not, because I don't want to create a bad situation for the church. Like, how crazy is that? So all day you're just like reviewing these papers. I'm admitting my crimes. I'm saying maybe I do have evil and maybe I do, maybe I didn't see what I saw. And you don't know these people, right? These people that you're meeting with in Florida?

No, no, they assign you a person. But you hadn't met them previously? No. So it's just some person with paperwork and they're going over your... Well, they have you on the meter. They have you on the lie detector test. I mean, on the lie, you know, with the cans that you're talking about. Yeah, yeah.

You're in a room that's locked. And that thing doesn't do anything, right? That e-meter? Well, it does something. I don't exactly... I mean, there is an actual explanation for it in the real world i'm not smart enough to to retell it to you but uh if i was to have a meter here and you had a thought i could show you it does register that you thought something right but you can't really differentiate what those thoughts are no but as an but as someone

who trains in scientology all you're trained to do, which what I was doing, I was training to administer Scientology to people, was learning to do that. And I would learn to say, Joe, what was that thought? What was that thought? I don't know what you're thinking, but I just know that you had a thought. Right. And so I ask you a question, and then I look at the meter to see that it registered on the meter. And regardless of what you want to talk about, we're only going to talk about what I see on the meter. Right.

And then there's also, it's open to suggestion, right? You could say, is this a moment where you had doubt? Is this a moment where you were angry? Yes. And then the person has to think, wow, was it? Yes. And then they start convincing you. Correct.

Well, the first thing they do is they, are you okay? You need some of your disgusting coconut water or no? You like that? It's atrocious. You loved loved it i didn't love it i also didn't love your coffee drink but i'm sure they're sponsors i loved everything you had joe what that this nitro stuff you didn't like that it's all everybody everything you drink is horrendous cream in it there's no sugar it's Wow. It's pure. You taste the bean. You like pure. I like some things pure. So, after this 90 days of being there, 90 days of being stuck in this, I mean, it must be like, I would imagine. But I started to believe that I was really, really, really messed up.

I would imagine, too, that they have probably a pretty grand establishment in clearwater right it's probably intimidating like that's how a lot of like no cults and religions like to rock it no you didn't go to like a pretty big place it's a huge place but if you're raised in it and you know, you realize that was scary to me. Because it goes against everything you've been taught. Everything I've been taught. Everything you've been taught is that everyone is some sort of spiritual being and everyone's equal. Correct. And then your whole goal as Scientologists is act for the greater good of mankind

and sort of bring as many people into this as you can because you're going to help them. Right, because it wasn't ever I'm going to get somebody in because I want to screw their lives up. It was always I want to get this person in because I want them to be happy. I want them to contribute to what we're doing. Now, is the thought process that Tom Cruise, being this huge celebrity, worldwide figure, that it's very important to keep him happy. Yes. And he-

It is probably the main goal of Scientology, is to keep Tom in. What an ego boost that must be for him. Oh, you see, that is something that people say all the time to me, like why, is that pot? Where? In that ashtray the time to me. Like, why? Is that pot? Where? In that ashtray? Yeah, definitely.

No! Yeah. Joe, do you know that I've never smoked pot? Oh, you should definitely try it right now. I'm scared. Oh, you should be. Why? What would happen? Because you're going to start freaking out, thinking about all sorts of stuff.

Really? Yeah. Yeah. And so you just keep it dirty like that, the ashtray? What do you mean? Why don't you make it nice? Like, why don't you present it in a nice way? Because I'm a man.

This is my man cave. Men don't give a fuck about nice. Really? Yeah. Yeah, well, actually, I shouldn't ask surprise hearing what I heard before we started this. It's pot. It's good for you. Don't try to talk over me, Joe, because you know what I'm going to say.

You've never had pot? No. I would suggest a little tiny amount for you. Okay. Like a little, just for you. Okay. That's it. Can somebody send something about gummy bears to me about you? Oh, Jesus. Don't fuck with those gummy bears.

Why? Those are way too powerful for you. Okay. What did you do? Those are horrendous. So what happened? Anything? Yeah.

You'll go on a journey on your life. It'll give you extreme paranoia. That's not fun. It's not, but when you come out of it, it's very beneficial. Why? Because you realize it's all bullshit, but when you come out of it, it's very beneficial. Why? Because you realize it's all bullshit, and then you're nervous about some things that... It just highlights your vulnerability. Oh, I don't need that.

It takes your blinders away. I don't need that. That doesn't sound like fun. Well, it's not necessarily that fun the first time. Yeah, so you wouldn't do it again. Or you have. Pot? I do it all the time.

I didn't say pot. The gummy bears. Gummy bears, too. I do them all the time. Really? Yeah. So you like that feeling of being... Yeah. I think it's good for you. I think I do it all the time. I didn't say pot. The gummy bears. Gummy bears, too. I do them all the time. Really? Yeah. So you like that feeling of being... Yeah.

I think it's good for you. I think it's good to be vulnerable. I agree. It's good to understand... It is good to be vulnerable. ...you're really just this finite organism floating through infinity. But I feel that way without it. Okay.

Well, then you don't need it. I mean, it's not for everybody. Oh. Wow. I kind of wanted you to push it on me a little bit, and you just gave up. I think it benefits a lot of people. It makes you're sensitive. It gives you a better sense of community It makes you kinder. Oh, I definitely need that. Yeah, okay. It'll make you a more I think it makes you a more loving person. I really believe that I need it

Yeah, okay back to what you think Oh make sex feel better. Makes food taste better. I'm married to a Puerto Rican, so I don't need that. You know what I mean? That was a little shout out. That was a little shout out. Powerful Puerto Ricans. They do not have sex, I can tell you that. All right. Yeah.

Congratulations to all of them. I shouldn't say they. Like, I've only had sex with one of them. The celebrity, we all know there's treatment different treatment for celebrities well especially in scientology right no it's highlighted it is like nothing you could ever imagine it is so when people say tom doesn't leave because they have information on him or john that's not the reason the amount of power they receive from this church is like nothing in Hollywood. It is like nothing. There is no reason for them to leave this

environment. Right. So it's super beneficial for them to be attached to it. Correct. Like he has employees, they work for him. All these people take care of his every need. Yes. And there's policy on how to talk to somebody like you wouldn't say, um, like if you said, go get me, uh, go get me a coffee and I wanted this temperature. There's no, I can't get it. We're five miles from any, you know, we're 30 miles. There would be none of that kind of talk, like not any kind. There's policy about don't, you don't talk back like ever. You don't step out of line. You don't give an opinion. don't talk back like ever. You don't step out of line. You don't give an opinion.

You don't make a face. You don't make a gesture. You don't sigh. If you step out of line in any way, you are dealt with by the church. So Tom essentially has servants. Correct. How many people? A lot.

A lot. A lot. And by the way, I don't begrudge somebody with a staff. Like, if you can have it, I go do it all day, all night. Do it all day, all night. But when you believe, as a Scientologist, you are working for somebody who single-handedly is saving the planet, and you deserve that kind of punishment, that's something different, babe. You understand what I'm saying? It's an abuse that is not justified,

but it is justified because you believe that you are single-handedly saving the planet. Capisce? Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. So he's the main figurehead, right? He's the main guy, like right up with Miscavigevige right and then john travolta is somewhere in that i think john was given what a designation called kakan where kakan not kant kakan yeah kakan okay k-h-a-k-H-A-N. Kha-Khan. Okay.

Okay. He's given this designation of Kha-Khan, which there's a policy that basically says you can kill another human being. If you are Kha-Khan'd, you're going to look the other way. And he was given that. He was given that by L. Ron Hubbard. Don't make me laugh because you're going to make me pee. Come on. This is hilarious.

You're going to make me pee. Don't laugh that hard. You pee when you laugh? How'd you work on a comedy all those years? Because first of all, not very well. Do you know how many takes I ruined? Like Kevin goes, don't ruin this take. I go, no, no, don't tell me what you're gonna do.

And then I would ruin it. I would ruin it, Joe, because he would do some stupid shit with his hands or something that he never rehearsed that would make me cry from laughter. Yes. And he was really highly inappropriate in moments that made me pee, almost pee, yeah. Okay, so he's allowed to kill people. Yeah.

One, or are you? I don't know, I should look at the policy again. I don't want to speak out of turn. But you're supposed to look the other way. So like if somebody said something wrong to John Travolta and he pulled out a samurai sword and cut their head off, you just gotta clean up the body. You just gotta clean up the body. You just gotta clean up the body.

And what would you put that body in? It's called ethics protection. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he has ethics protection. So everyone would be responsible for- Dealing with it. Dealing with it.

And he would just leave the room and he would know that you guys would take care of it. Correct. And there's also another policy. And by the way, the reason why I say these policies is because I don't like when people say, Lee, I believe you. I don't want you to believe me. I want you to look it up. I want you to look it up.

I want you to look for yourself and make your own decisions. So I keep quoting these policies because I want people to look it up so that they can say that shit's true. She's not talking shit. You know what I mean? Right. There's another policy called ethics protection. There's another policy called the responsibility of leaders, which he actually says exactly what you just said, that basically, you know, what you got to do to protect a leader, you got to do it. If you see a body, then you clean it up and the leader should never know. I read Going Clear by Lawrence Wright and

I watched the HBO special on it and it's stunning. Yeah. Like when you – Crazy accurate. Crazy accurate. I was blown away. The book especially, the book goes into great depth about how bananas L. Ron Hubbard was. And it's so odd to me that all this information is out there. It isn't out there, though. Remember, you're reading L. Ron Hubbard's words from Dianetics. Right.

The book one. This is the first book that we're all required to read. Everybody's required to read everything that he's written. I read Dianetics, too. I had it sent to me. Yeah, I ordered it. It was one of those late-night infomercial things. When I first moved to L.A., I've always been into self- been into self-help, like Anthony Robbins. I

bought all his tapes. I used to listen to it on a Walkman back in the day and read his books. So I thought it was just more of that. And I got put on a list and I got sent for years, for years, for years. I'm surprised you're off of it. I bet you, I swear, I'm actually willing to make a money bet that you get mail after we talk. Interesting. Well, I went to one of those things where you sit down and you get an e-meter and you hold the thing and the guy asks you questions.

I was in San Diego and I was filming something. Oh, so you saw the they did a demonstration. Did you see it read on the meter? Did you do the pinch test? No, I don't remember a pinch test but I do remember holding on to these things, and he would ask me some questions. But the guy was very uninterested or disinterested. He just seemed like he was kind of being forced to do it.

That's what it seemed like to me. He was just going through the motions. Well, that's rude. He seemed super bored. Oh. Yeah. So I wonder, had he not been super bored, would you be full on right now? No, no, no.

I was doing it as a goof. It was only like 10 years ago. Oh, okay. I thought it was ridiculous. Okay. I was in San Diego filming something, and they had this setup out there. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, ooh, let me go in there.

Right. And I was just hoping I could weasel in and have a seat and no one would know who I am and put on the cans. Did they know? No. No. I don't think so. I don't think so.

The guy didn't give a fuck. That's interesting he's they're very you know yeah uh welcoming and loving because they remember they do believe in what they're doing i did right um but anyway what i was saying to you is the dianetics and dianetics you know elrond harvard is writing that he's a scientist right he's you know a decorated war hero, that he was college educated. And so you're saying the information's out there. What information other than what we're reading is out there?

Well, I mean now, like Lawrence Wright's book. But no Scientologist is allowed to read Lawrence Wright's book. He's not allowed to. So they did an excellent job of insulating people. Look, if you and I were like friends, friends, right? And you had concern for me in Scientology. And you came to me and you said, Leah, I really am scared for you. You know, I read Going Clear and I want to know that you're okay.

And you and Angela, I don't know if this is a good thing for your daughter. You know, I would say, Joe, you know me. I'm a good person. Like a good thing for your daughter you know i would say joe you know me i'm a good person like i've been there for you you're white like come on you know i don't i don't do draw i don't do not you know i don't steal i don't do right just respect the fact that this is something i believe is helping me why would you ask me to look at something that's anti my church or anti what i'm doing that's how you would approach it but and you would accept it joe you'd be like, she's right. It is messed up of me to be telling her these things when she is a good person. And her and Angela are great.

Like, you wouldn't push it. You wouldn't push it. You would respect me enough because you would know me enough to go, I don't want to do that to her. It's wrong. It's disrespectful. So you feel like that happens pretty much across the board? Well, anybody who's outside. Yes. And when I was and when I those things that's what you're trained to do

Yeah, so you're working constantly with people that are not in the church, right? You're on sets you do how many shows are gonna come up to you and say hey what I think you're I think you're in A cult well in your position very few right because you were one of the stars of the show Right and everybody's behind you would do that to tom very few right very few none none yeah none so when he's on a set is it all like he's doing mission impossible or something like that is it all scientology employees that are constantly surrounding him yes so he's got like this wall of insulation correct and it's all scientology people correct but the director the writer the producer they don't have to be scientologists not at all no no but they're not they're not invading Tom's space

they're not gonna be disrespectful to their lead actor they're not gonna go up to Tom and go hey Tom we don't know about our affiliation with you you know and what you're doing in the Scientology thing you know they're not gonna rock the boat they hired him as an actor. And because of the way Tom Cruise is, I mean, I don't know him, obviously, but what I get out of him is he's a super focused, like very turned on, intense guy. And it probably benefits him having all these servants take care of all his every need so he could focus directly on his thing and just go for it. So for him, it's probably 100% beneficial to be involved. Correct. Because it is a world that's tailor-made to him.

That's so strange. And that is Scientology. What a rare position. Yes, it is. For any human to ever find themselves in without being the conqueror of a country or something like that. Correct. Correct.

I mean, again, I want to make the distinction between, you know, listen, when you gain some success in this business, thank God, you're able to surround yourself with an assistant and people to help you to make your life easier, so you could focus on your work. But this is something totally different, because behind closed doors, you are acting and being a different way, and you know it. I know it. He knows it. And anybody in Scientology knows it. And how is he different?

It is about the mission of Scientology, so anything is justified. So behind closed doors, though, how is he different? It is nothing out of line, nothing that would upset him. You have to act and be a certain way around him. You cannot, you just can't step out of line, out of the bounds of the policies of the church. Or you will be dealt with, and you will be dealt with swiftly within your church. And that seems to be quite abusive to me. I was punished for basically following my own policy of my church, defending my church. And I can't be friends with somebody who, you can't be around that. You can't be around that and you'll be getting punished by your church because of it. But that, again, that wasn't

really even the reason why I left I mean I was dealing with that I was dealing with being interrogated at my expense we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars you've given them millions of dollars yes millions that's insane and now they're they're turning around you know they have these hate websites they create on everybody within minutes yeah Yeah, I saw yours. It was on a show. It's adorable. Isn't it great? Yeah. They can't really say anything.

You didn't do anything. They can say a lot. Listen. Yeah, but I've read what they said. I said it in my book, okay? Yeah, all those things, okay? Even if you catch me, you know, in a situation or my husband, it wouldn't change anything about what I'm saying. It wouldn't change a damn thing.

It doesn't matter. Their intention is to try to, you know, my It wouldn't change a damn thing. It doesn't matter. Their intention is to try to, you know, my husband sometimes sings in a salsa club. You don't think they're going to catch him or a girl somewhere dancing innocently. You know what I'm saying? Yes, you can do all those things. You can hire PIs to follow us. You can get us in situations. But does that change anything? They're trying to discredit you. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because what you're saying is truth. Exactly.

And it's not just me. I'm not saying it. The other thing that bothers me is that it's become my crusade. It's not my crusade. It's my responsibility. And I feel other people need to step up and take some responsibility. I don't want to be the only one saying it. I don't want to be other people, other actors, other officials, the media.

They need to not make it about me. Get some balls and say what you really think. Like I was on 2020, right, with Dan Harris. And it's the parent company to A&E. And I did the show for somebody else. And Dan Harris, I said, what do you think of that? Like, what do you think of it, Dan? And he said, I have to be impartial. And I said, would you be impartial about abuse? Are you impartial about this? And I named a few things and he went, well, no. And I said, right, okay, you're being an asshole. And, you know, the truth of the matter is I do think that of this industry.

I think this is like a ball-less industry. And there's people who have some balls, like you, like Adam Carolla. You know, there's a few people who are in the public eye. Sorry about that. Who are in the public eye that have had the balls to have an opinion. Don't make it about me. Right. These things are screwed up these people's lives are being hurt and damaged and you're and you're defrauding people out of millions of dollars um by your abusive policies you're you make things confidential then you say these policies don't exist why don't you say they

exist there you can google them and see that they exist well in their defense what you are is a magnet point because you are a famous person and so it makes it much easier to concentrate on the whole situation through you right you know and because of the fact that you're a famous person because of the fact that you lived most of your life in the church, it makes it very convenient to go through you. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing that they're doing it that way. No, no, no, but Joe, here's what I'm saying. If I say disconnection is a policy, right? And then the next headline is Leah Remini alleges that disconnection, don't know, I'm

not alleging anything. Look it up. Right. I see what you're saying. Look it up. Right. Don't say that I'm saying it. They're protecting legally probably that's why it's it's available for anyone to see well because they probably don't want to get sued but why would they get sued it's in their policies uh that's a good question and maybe they would say that

they were misinterpreting it or misinter saying. It says disconnection and suppressives. And it says exactly what when the church labels a suppressive person that you are only your only option is to disconnect. So you have children disconnecting from their own mothers and fathers. That was one of the most disturbing aspects of your show. Right. To see the damage that caused and see how devastated these parents were and family members were. That's horrible that's really horrible and you know and you know what people say you knew the policy existed right when you were in scientology so why are you guys so surprised we were taught a suppressive person

is like an evil person evil with horns right they like hitler right you know that you're not thinking it's my mother right my daughter but when you're get pulled in for something like this Which is what they did in the end they try to get me to disconnect from my stepfather Then they try to get my stepfather to disconnect from my mother And so they did this whole thing with your stepfather who brought you in the first place no no this is another guy I know that I'm busy. Yeah, she's getting crazy. Yeah Yeah, she's a naughty naughty But she's been she's been married to George, her husband, for 30 years.

So, yeah. No, the other guy ended up leaving us there. He got us into Scientology. And he took off. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. So, talk me through your return. So, you go to Florida.

You spend three fucking months getting grilled every day putting the pressure on you and that's been a proven tactic of uh interrogations that it's always questioned by uh people that really like look at uh the ethical implications of interrogation the problem is when you put so much intention on someone about a certain thing, it makes them so uncomfortable that it changes their perception of things to the point where they're willing to admit a lot of things that may or may not be true just to get the interrogation over. Well, that's what I did.

Yeah. Yeah, I just said, okay, I'm sorry. So you come back. I come back. I kind of like take a little bit of a hiatus from Scientology, but I'm not creating ways. When you say take a hiatus, you're not doing the daily thing anymore? I'm just not going in all the time. How often are you going in then?

Maybe like once every month. Once a month instead of every day. That's a big deal. It was a big deal. Then they got me back. Then they have a big meeting with me and they go, we want you to come back. We know you're upset. Like that whole thing was just screwed up. Let just come back and i and i wanted specifics what was messed

up i want you to tell me in writing and then you should also refund all my money that you spent that i spent having to do this then they showed me a policy that there are no refunds and if i ask for a refund then i'm going to get declared a suppressive person labeled an enemy. So the money that you spent going to Florida and spending three months down there, that's what you wanted to refund? Correct. Not the millions that you gave them over the years? No, no, because listen, in their defense, I don't think it's right to get your money back on something that you feel you've received, right?

A service you've received. Right. The problem that I have is Scientology is a pay before you go proposition. There are, if not tens of thousands of people who have money sitting on account that they can't get because they have a refund policy. I can't just call the church right now and say, I want a refund because they're not allowed to talk to me. So it's a catch-22. So your only person that you could talk to in the church is the person who deals with refunds, but they can't talk to you because you're declared an enemy to the church. So they're holding millions and millions of dollars of people's money that they can't get back

because no lawyer is going to take on the Church of Scientology for free. But you're talking the average guy who has $50,000, $100,000 on account. He or she is never going to see again. So you come back. You get to them. They have this meeting with you. You say that you want to get your money back. They won't give you your money back.

And then how does it go from there? They said, you know, you're going to be interrogated because you're now acting as an enemy to the church. Because you're asking for your money back. Correct. That's a bad sign. Then I said, okay, now it just kind of opened up a little bit of a wound. Then I started saying, where's Shelly? Okay, now I want an answer where Shelly is, because I had been writing her. Shelly Miss Cabbage?

Correct, the leader's wife. And I said, it's going to get bad for you guys, because now I started going on the Internet, and I started seeing stories of senior executives getting beaten in the church like Debbie Cook and Mike Rinder and Tom DeVocht. And I was seeing all these names. They got beaten? They were actually beaten, physically beaten. For what reason? For looking the wrong way at David Miscavige.

For sighing. For sighing? For rollingvige. For sighing. For sighing? For rolling their eyes. For being tired. For yawning. Like yawning in front of him or something? Yes. So someone beats you.

Right. Or he has somebody beat you. And Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun were part of that, right, were part of that senior executive strata that was up in Riverside County where they have a place called Gold Base. And that's where these incidents were allegedly taking place. So I started Googling it, and I started going into the church and saying, I'm Googling this information, and I want to know why these people are saying the same thing. Their stories are over and over again. And then I'm seeing stories of families being declared suppressive people, their OT-8s. You know, they're high up in the church, and their families are being forced.

And then you're presented with, this is a lie. Look, Mike Rinder admitted that he beat people and Marty Rinder. I said, but that's the difference. They're admitting it. They're admitting that they did this under David Misdavage's direction. You're saying that they're lying, but they're not lying about their doing it, but they're lying about having received it.

Does that make sense to you? Over and over again, these stories kept coming up. Right. And they kept, when I would ask a question, they would put me in a room and go, what are your crimes? Who are you talking to? Why are you talking to enemies of your church? And it was just, my questions were never answered. And I said, does this church ever do anything wrong?

Does this church ever do anything wrong? Is everybody an evil asshole once they leave is that what you're telling me so what would happen if you said that my mother was then I just got to believe you that my mother is an evil person and all these horrible things you're saying about my mother I'm supposed to believe you and the answer was don't believe me believe L what is L right what does L rage say and then they have the policy out. What does LRA say?

Read this. Read this aloud. What don't you understand? What does this word mean? What does that word mean? Go look this up. You have a misunderstood word here. If you don't understand that anybody who attacks your church is a criminal.

Like this is the kind of thing you go through. Right. So this is what you're going through when you came back to L.A. Yes. When you slowly started separating. Yes. Did they ever give you one of those big gold medals like Tom Cruise got?

I never got one. But I did get a huge award for donating another million to the church. And it's so crazy to me that everybody who leaves is somebody who is an ax to grind, apostate, a bigot, because I've been called a bigot um because they they they go to the one place they can go to which is don't don't um disrespect my religious beliefs right right and then they can call you a bigot i'm for religious freedom i'm

for the first met like that that's what they're hiding behind and i'm calling bullshit to every celebrity who says that shit because they know what they're doing i did it too i did it too joe so i know what they're doing right and they know that i know which is even sicker you're a terrible person to have against you on this why because you're so fiery and you you you you enjoy this this combat there's a part of you that enjoys it clearly yeah that's what i thought about this when the whole thing first started going down i was like oh she's like a terrible person to like to leave the church because she's going to talk shit to the end of time no like you're gonna go i don't mean in a bad way listen joel if you told me tomorrow and i and i really just getting to know

you today i i mean i've known you but we don't know know each other right but i'm really i kind of like you like you're cool Okay, thank you. I like you smile with your eyes Which is a thing that I loved about Kevin like that was one thing I say about Kevin like there's like a smile like behind Their eyes like there's a smile I always find that to be kind now you could be a total dick and I don't know about it because I don't listen to Podcasts okay, but are you a dick no okay good? Because if I hear like when I leave here,

Joe's a total dick, he's a fuck, you know, okay. You probably hear that from one person or two. Okay. Just because you said it. Okay, but here's the thing. If you call me tomorrow and said, I'm having a problem with my neighbor because he said I'm encroaching on his property

and my kid's swing set is encroached. Like, I would be soached. I would find every resource I could to help you. That is who I am. Not that I'm Mother Teresa. I will get upset if I see anything on the street. I get involved in shit. I've always been involved in other people's business. Always.

If I can see into your house, I will spy on you. I will do shit. I will, if I go into your house, I'm looking in your drawers. I'm in your shit. I'm in people's business all the time. And if I'm in a restaurant, I tell Angela to speak to me because I want to hear what's going on next to me, you know, and I figure everything out. Right.

But if I see people being bullied, if I see people being unjustly hurt, yes, I do. I have always said, and people who know me know that's true. Yeah. Well, so this David Miscavige wife situation, did that get resolved? No. I filed a missing persons report with the LAPD. And then I found some pictures of the guy who was in charge of my case speaking at a Scientology event on human trafficking, Lieutenant Dawson at the LAPD. The police officer? Yeah,

that was in charge of the case. He was being paid to speak at the Celebrity Center at a human trafficking event at Celebrity Center, Scientology. That seems like a massive conflict of interest. That seems like a massive conflict of interest. You think? Okay. So then, that's funny. So then, after that, I called Dawson, Lieutenant Dawson, and I said, so what's the deal? Because I had given a letter with the police report that said it was to Shelly if they found her. Shelly, go with this man now.

I'm going to take care of you. I'll take care of your legal fees. What's going on there is wrong. You have no idea. Because let me tell you something. They have no telephone. They have no mail in or out. They are not allowed to leave the base. If they leave that base up at Riverside County, they are accompanied by security or a handler. So you think she's a prisoner? If she's alive and well, the second best case scenario would be, I, but I, if she's alive and well, uh, the second, uh, best case scenario would be, yes, that she's being held prisoner, if not by her own mind. If she's alive and well. Right.

So you, what, didn't she release some sort of a statement or someone released some sort of a statement? Someone did. I don't know who it was from. To respond to your accusations, right? They said that they had made contact with her and she didn't want to be found. I said, did you see her or was somebody speaking on her behalf? You ready for the answer?

That's classified. This is what the police said. And I said, are you sick? I said, sir, are you sick? Is there something wrong with you? Am I doing something wrong? I filed the report. You know that, right? Like, you know that I filed the report. I thought maybe he was confused and he thought he was talking to my cousin. I said, no,

like I filed the report. Of course, you're going to give me the information. I need to know if you saw her or the, the officers that you sent there saw her. Did anybody give her my note? If, uh, did you, did they, was she okay? Was okay? Did you take her off the base? Did you say you wanted to speak to her alone? He said, I can't give you any of that information. Could you imagine? Then I had to spend more money, Joe, because this is not free. I had to spend more money on a lawyer to do a follow-up on the Public Information Act, I asked specific questions. Who did you see? Did you see her? Was she alone?

Where did you see her? What did she look like? They didn't give me the information. They go, yeah, you can get that information if you pay two more dollars. Okay, we paid the two more dollars. And then the thousands of dollars it cost me to get a lawyer to draft up the letter. So it's still ongoing. I still don't have answers.

So she just sort of vanished she stopped going to events she stopped being and by the way she is called her official title is called cob communicator chairman of the board communicator she is by his side 24 hours a day so imagine going from seeing somebody as a permanent like it's not like oh sometimes your assistant works sometimes this is a person who worked around the clock for him and and was his wife what do you think happened I don't know which is why I filed it have you heard anything no so no one who used to be a part of the church has contacted you there would would be no... Okay, anybody who would... Anybody who I would need to talk to me

is up behind gates in Riverside County at this gold base. Anybody that I would need to come out and talk to me and give me information, the FBI information, would be behind those gates. Where are they getting money from now? Who?

The Scientologists. because it seems like... Well, you have people like Nancy Cartwright who give $10 million, $20 million. You have some whales in Scientology. You have Greta Van Susteren and her husband. Greta Van Susteren? Oh, big time. Really?

Oh, yeah. It's on her Wikipedia page that she's a Scientologist. Yes, and her husband too. But it seems like they have a giant staff. They have a lot of people working there. Those people work for free, baby. Those people sign billion year contracts and they get paid $15 a week. No, I'm not kidding. I'm not being funny. Billion year contracts. I'm not being funny. No, I know you. Oh, okay. And they get paid $15 a week, and they work from the moment they get up to midnight. They work astronomical hours. These are called Sea Org members.

I'm not talking about average Scientologists. And explain to me the Sea Org, because was that established when L. Ron Hubbard was evading taxes? Yes, and he was on a ship, yes. And he created the ship called the Freewinds. And whatever ship—it's not called the Freewinds. It is called the Freewinds now, but that's where they deliver the highest level of Scientology there, OT8. So when you get to OT8, you've got to get on a boat. You've got to go to the Freewinds.

But before that, I don't know the name of his boats, but I think it was called the Apollo. That was a part of Going Clear that was hilarious when, who was it, one of the writers or one of the. Will Haggis. Yes. Yeah. When he received like the highest level shit. That wasn't even the highest level, John. Wasn't even?

That was OT3. Really? Yeah. And when I read it, I literally, you know, you have to go into a secure room. Talk us through that. What is that like? First of all, you have to get invited. You have to get an invitation.

So you'd been in Scientology for years. You'd spent a ton of money already. A ton of money. And you're like? First of all, you have to get invited. You have to get an invitation. So you'd been in Scientology for years. You'd spent a ton of money already. A ton of money. And you're like, God damn it, this is it. By the way, most Scientologists don't even get to this. Most. Most don't. Right.

Because you have to be wealthy to get to this. Not only do you have to be wealthy, but a lot of times what they do, the new scam is you get to a level and then they go, we messed that up. You have to go back down at your expense. Right. You have to redo that down at your expense. Right. You have to redo that part. You were talking about that on your show. Yeah. Yeah.

And they rewrite some new thing. Yeah, yeah. Now David Miscavige rewrites things and says he found it in a vault somewhere. A vault. And we all believe it, baby. Honestly, we all believe it because we want to believe it.

So talk me through. So you go through this rigorous. What level did you get to ot5 you're close yeah I got to when so you to get to this advanced level this is it's called advanced levels right you are put through the ringer they go through every folder you know from the moment you walk into a tridentology they have folders on you so everything you've ever said is written down and videotaped okay so they they they get your folders and they they call they call it they go through it okay and

they go through every transgression are you still humping your pillow are you still you know a nasty asshole to your mother? They go through everything. Are you still connected to this person who said something bad about Scientology 20 years ago? So they make sure that you're eligible to get the advanced data. And where do they bring you? They bring you to a room. Where is it at?

It's on Elrond Hubbard Way in Los Angeles and Fountain. So how nervous are you? Are you freaking out? Oh, my God, I can't believe this is happening. Finally, all this shit I've put up with all my life is finally going to be answered. All my questions of life are going to be answered in this moment. And you realize this is the moment you're going to get the sacred documents. So my mother, yeah, so because I'm a celebrity, they let my mother come in.

She was also higher level than me right so imagine i'm in this like double like so you go through one door and there's security and then you got to get the land you like you got to get like clearance you got to go take a picture you've got to sign documents and say if i ever reveal this uh it's going to be a hundred thousand dollars you know you don't ever get to read any legal document that Scientology gives you. So you just sign things. They say sign here, sign here. It's like today what you did here.

I don't know. I could be married to you is all I know when I sign today. I like how you shook your head no. You don't need to shy out. Okay, so you know comedy. You don't deny, Joe. So I don't know why you keep denying.

That's how you step up the comedy another notch. Got it. You deny. You just go no. Oh, I didn't get the memo. Okay, so I don't know why you keep denying. That's how you step up the comedy another notch. Got it. You deny. You just go, no. Oh, I didn't get the memo. Okay, so that's what we're doing now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, got it.

You go into the room, a secure room. You got a lanyard. They take your photo. You sign the documents. Well, they give you a folder. You have to get a briefcase that only you know the code to. A briefcase? So you go up to the window, to the AO window, and you hand them your briefcase.

They scan your briefcase and they put the materials in the briefcase and they close it, they turn it back to you and you lock it. Then you attach the briefcase to your body. I'm not fucking with you, Joe. Like a handcuff? No, like with a little clip. Okay. Like it has to be... Has to be physically connected to you. Right, so when you go pee,

you have your briefcase. Briefcase coming with you. Correct. Right. Okay, so you get your briefcase, they go down the hall and use your thing and you're going to be let into one door and then you're going to go into another door and then you're going to go into the course room. That's what it's called. So you go into the three doors

or two doors or whatever it was, you sit down, you open up your briefcase and you read the material for the first time the answers so my mother's sitting there in front of me okay she's so excited understand that like this is what you want for your kids like you're like they're getting up the bridge and they're getting the answers to life so when they come back next lifetime they're not to forget everything. They're not going to be as fucked up as they were when they were, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's really a proud moment, you know? And so my mom's sitting across from me like so excited. And I'm reading this, that my body is made up of other beings. My body, my whole body, my thoughts and everything are mixed in with these other beings. My body, my whole body, my thoughts and everything are mixed in with these other beings

that make up, compose my body. Okay? Are you following me with this? What's your understanding of it? Your body's made up of other beings. Right. Every, every, everything. My thumb is composed of... Your nails, they're other beings. Your hair,

they're other beings. Maybe not the nails because they're acrylic. Your skin's other beings. Your eyes are other beings. Everything. Everything. My thumb is composed of. Your nails, your other beings, your hair, other beings. Maybe not the nails because they're acrylic. Okay. Your skin is other beings. Your eyes are other beings. Everything. Everything. Like just here.

Right. My thumb is a person, is a being trapped into this body. Okay. So I read this and the supervisor comes over and he goes, do you understand? I want you to draw it out. I want you to draw it out. I want you to draw it out. So the supervisor has access to this information. Yeah, yeah.

He's standing there to make sure, right? So I go like this, Joe. I go, I don't know. You draw a little person. Okay. I go, there's a bunch of beings on me like that. And I give it to him like that. And he goes, start again. I want you to read it again.

And then I want you to draw another one. So I go, okay. So I did all this, you know, and I literally did this, Joe. I made circles on every part of my body. So for people who are just listening, Lee's drawn a stick figure, and she's drawn little circles all over the stick figure. Right? Right. Now, these beings were, like, from 75 trillion years ago.

They were put in volcanoes and blown up and packaged and overlord and Anyway, are you freaking out at this point? I go I look at my mother who said now the supervisor standing over me So I go What? She's like And she's like, isn't that amazing? So your mom was in. She was buying it. No, no, there's OT8.

Right. Your mom's OT8? Yeah. Your mom's top of the food chain? Yeah. Not only is my mother top of the food chain when it comes to the counseling side, my mother was top of the food chain when it came to administering Scientology, which is very rare. She was what's considered a high-trained auditor.

But she hadn't read this stuff yet? Of course she read it. She was just there to see my excitement auditor, but she hadn't read this stuff. Yeah, of course. She read it She was just there to see my excitement. Oh, I see. Okay She was there as a spectator to see her daughter receive the answers, right? But you were super skeptical Supervisor comes over and goes what don't you understand? I go I understand it I just I don't I don't loved it. Like I'm not happy I go I just gotta tell you I'm not happy with this is what it was And he goes well, you don't need to believe it. You just need to do it

So that's the answer that's given to you. You don't need to believe it. You just need to do it So then you have to go and audit this you have to go and do it on yourself Talk to these beings on the meter by yourself. So, on the meter, meaning you hold the cans. And when I say cans, folks, what they look like, it looks like soup cans. Like if you drained all the soup from a soup can and it had a string attached to it and it's connected to some...

Yeah, you could just Google Scientology e-meter. So you have to hold the e-meter and discuss this? No, you think it you think you know There's just thank you so now you got to go get your material So after you've been checked out on this and they get that you get what it is Then you go back to the window, and they give you your actual what you're supposed to do with this Information so it'll say like it'll be a piece of paper, and it'll say ask

This question and then look at the meter and what the answer is. Whatever answer comes to your mind, write it down. Huh. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes. So all you're doing is awakening these things to talk to them, really. Oh. Yeah.

Right. And to let them go. You're basically saying, like, go be free. So this is OT3? Correct. And by the way, when I was a Scientologist and I heard that this was a story, I didn't know. So I would go to the internet and go

OT3 story, but I didn't know if it was true, so I couldn't verify it. Right. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So most people who go, that's bullshit, because they haven't, they don't know what they're looking at on the internet. Right. There's no one to verify it with. So if I went to my mother, let's say, before I got to this level they you're told to lie to people

oh you can't tell people what the answers are because they're gonna get pneumonia they get pneumonia literally will die okay so a lot of times when I lied to the press and then they confronted me on it and said why'd you lie I was like I had to to save your life I mean I can't I don't want to give you cancer so if you were about to go to ot3 and then you went online and you investigated what is OT3 and then you read a bunch of stuff about these little beings in your body and then asked your mom, your mom would have to lie to you. She would lie to me.

As she did. As she did. So after you got through this, what made you do four and five? Because there's always the carrot of like, just wait. Okay, it'll make sense. And by the way, here's what they do. They set up that you're the auditor now. So you're auditing these things in your body. You're now

the boss. So they go, they tell you, get your hat on. Like, it's your job. You don't need to believe anything. You just need to audit them. So you need to do your job as an auditor. That's what they're called, auditors, people who are the ones who take you into session in Scientology. So you feel like you're in a leadership role. So you're doing these things a favor,

you know, and you're like, well, maybe it's true. I don't know. I mean, I do sometimes hear voices, you know, like, you know, you have a moment with yourself and you're like, I might be really kind of crazy. So you're like, maybe this is an answer. It's sick because it speaks to a side of you that wants answers about life, you know. And then you're like, no, this is some crazy shit, man. There wasn't even people. What? No.

You know, listen, you believe what you want to believe at the time. Right. So does it feel to you at the moment like maybe if you just keep going, all the pieces will fall into place, then it'll make sense. Yes. It's like I'm confused now, but if I contemplate this and I really think it over, eventually I'm going to receive enough information where this is all going to be like, oh, I was a fool.

I didn't understand. Right. So for example, one time I had talked to a friend about it. I said, you know, I heard something about some Zinu shit. She pulled me into Celebrity Center so fast into a secured room, and she handed me my ass. She said, don't you ever say that word outside a secured room. I'm writing a knowledge report on you. She said, I'm writing a report on you.

You never say that word out loud in a room that's not secured. Okay? And never say it again. So she wrote a report on me. A knowledge report. She wrote a knowledge report on me. I got sent to what's called ethics,

which is like the justice department of celebrities, of Scientology. And they said, they brought me into another secured room because they have to get somebody who knows this information. And they said, never ever into another secured room because they have to get somebody who knows this information and they said never ever say that would say this never confirm it never deny it never give that information out ever that just never discuss it just say I've never heard of

it you sound crazy and that's what we all say you sound crazy or you know properly done you get it you know like you'll get it if it's properly done. Those people didn't do it properly. That's why they didn't understand it. Do you see what I'm saying? There's a line that you cross, right, where like this is my life. This is Scientology. This is what I believe.

And then you cross this line. Oh, my God, this is bullshit. Right. That's a – that line, that bridge that you cross in your mind is a very distinct transition. So what what was that like? Like, what is that transition like? Like, what is what is your life like? Well, now, once you did. How long ago did you leave? July will be four years. That's it. Yeah, that's not long. No.

That's really recent. Joe, and I'm still, you know, finding myself. I'm still like, who am I? What do I believe? Right. You know, am I some bullshit? Am I a person that, like you're saying, loves to fight? Because I don't want that. I don't want to be that person who loves to fight just to fight.

I want to be on the path of being righteous. I want to be who I really am. And who I really am is sometimes an asshole, Joe. Sometimes I am, I have a horrible temper. Sometimes I feel like I'm an old school mafia person stuck in a female, like I have really extreme thoughts about life. And I'm finding who I am. I'm finding out what I really believe. Because a lot of times I don't know. I go, do I believe in that? Don't I believe in that? I was taught that everybody who smokes pot is evil. Do I believe

that everybody who cheats is evil and horrible and just lost? Do I believe that other religions are lost? Do I believe that everybody needs... I'm searching. So you have to reevaluate your entire belief system now. Everything, everything. And it was a big part of my day, remember. It gave me a mission.

It gave me purpose. And that's what I hear a lot from Scientologists is, ex-Scientologists, not just hearing their pain of losing their families and everything they've ever known, but not having purpose when you wake up in the morning. Like, you know, we have purpose, Joe. We have kids. Thank God for them.

But this, it was so much bigger. It was for your children's children. That's a giant factor for people. I have some friends that were deeply involved in the Mormon religion, and they're not anymore. And it was really weird because we went to dinner once, and they were saying, do you believe in a higher power? And I said, it's entirely possible. I said, I don't, but I don't believe in anything that I

don't have any evidence of. It's entirely possible. Like I think the universe is an incredible mystery. And I think the life itself in consciousness is an amazing mystery. And I don't think we have all the answers. I don't, I just think, I don't think an ant can understand a cell phone and I don't think we have all the answers. I don't think an ant can understand a cell phone and I don't think I can understand the universe. I just think my brain is not evolved enough. I don't think our understanding has reached a point where we could really accurately describe what this is all about. But their answer was like, how do you get up in the morning?

I go, I love life. I like drinking nice wine. I like having dinner. I like being with my friends. But Joe, I love life. I like drinking nice wine. I like having dinner. I like being with my friends. But, Joe, not everybody has that. Well, they probably should find some things they enjoy about this life. Exactly.

But that's the thing is finding those things for Scientologists, it's like a lot of my friends who didn't really know what I was going through in church go, you know, you're very kind of childish at times, you know, because I never went to dinner in my 30s and 40s and had wine. Like, I wouldn't go to dinner and have wine. I'd get reports written on me. You know, we had to go to church the next day. I wasn't going out to dinner after the King of Queens and enjoying my friends. And if I did, Joe, I was thinking they're lost. They need Scientology. You know, I was never really there. I was never really part of, I'm like living for the first

time, but I do have faith. That's the one thing that I have found and not in a weird way, not in a, I'm in another cult way, not in just, I have faith for the first time. I don't believe in any one thing. I believe in a higher power and I believe that faith, having faith is a big thing. These people that I was friends with, I'm still friends with, this conversation got, it got a little weird that night, but it got way weirder years later.

Why? Because they wanted to believe it. What do you mean? They left the Mormon church. Oh, okay, why did that get weird? Well, because then they became untethered. And, uh, the conversation I had with, uh, the wife was very strange because she was like, I grew up in, in indoctrinated in this fundamentalist religion. And she goes, and now that I'm not in it, she goes, I don't know what to believe. And I realized

that my mindset is kind of fucked up because I, I'm indoctrinated, like my brain developed as a young age, believing nonsense and never questioning it. She goes, I feel very vulnerable, very susceptible. She goes, I feel like if the right cult came along, they could scoop me up. And she was laughing about it, but she wasn't laughing about it. Well, here's the thing. I'm the opposite now. That's why I don't want you to tell me nothing. I don't want to be told a damn thing.

I've been told my whole life what to do and how to think. So I've gone the opposite. Just don't tell me what I need to do. And the pendulum swing is far. You know what I mean? Like even going to the DMV when they go, you need to stand there. I don't need to stand anywhere. Like I don't need, guess what?

I don't need my license renewed. And then I'm that person i will destroy my whole day and get a ticket because i don't want to be told what to do don't talk to me like i'm you know your child and don't talk to me like you know i'm very much that way you know you should have shorter now i don't give a what you think about my nails i want them that they're slightly longer than average because it's purposeful. And when I don't want them anymore, I won't have them. But that's just a small scale. I don't want people telling me what I should think anymore. And let me find my way. I'm going to make mistakes, but I want to find my own way. So you're sort of reestablishing your own personal sovereignty.

And I don't know what it is, Joe. Like I said, I'm going to piss some more people off, I'm sure. And I'm going to make a lot of mistakes. I'm going to not be the perfect person people think I am or want me to be. But I've got to make mistakes. That's how you learn. I wasn't able to learn. Right. It was like,

do it this way. This is the way we do it. We don't do this. We don't do that. I mean, I was always a little bit of a rebel in, but I thought everybody was being held to this higher standard. They weren't. I was finding out other celebrities were smoking pot and then going into the sauna. Yeah, exactly. Like doing their purification rundown a hundred times. What's that?

Because that's in the beginning steps of Scientology. You have to do what's called a purification rundown. It's supposed to detox your body of all, you know. Thetans? Not thetans. You're not there yet. No? No, Joe.

You don't get to say that. I don't get to say it? No, baby, until you get there. Oh, when do you get there? You have to spend $380,000 and about 40 years of your life. 40? Yeah. That's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work. No. You learn, basically, Purification Rundown is just you're supposed to sweat out all of the toxins lodged in your fatty tissue. Now, the problem with that is you're taking large amounts of niacin, and they claim you you're you're running out like uh suntan from from when you're a kid and from other lifetimes and it's niacin yes like flash niacin so you feel it in your skin it gets you hot and yes and you have to sit in the sauna for five hours it's a five hour thing but i was finding out i was like wait a minute why was that person even smoking pot we're not allowed to smoke pot right

like I haven't been smoking pot this whole time you know where people do and I'm learning that other people were smoking pot doing other drugs and then going in the sauna

I was like wait I didn't know there was an option for me like I was living by this you know what I mean so that's what I'm going through now I'm not saying

I'm smoking pot but I'm just saying it sounds like you want to a little bit only because I want to be calmer but it It sounds like you want to. A little bit. Only because I want to be calmer, but... It might not make you calmer. Okay, then I don't want it. Well, it could.

It has a different effect on everybody. I feel like I'm too old for that shit. No, you're definitely not. Joe, I'm too old for it. No, you're not. No, you're alive. If you're alive, you can experience the benefits of a consciousness-enhancing substance, whether it's mushrooms or pot or anything.

Joe, that's crazy. It's not crazy. It's not crazy Yeah, you're freaking out you've been in a cult your whole life, sorry folks Nobody in Scientology other than the people are gonna attack me and you are listening to this Well, even the people that are gonna attack you and me that i don't feel bad for them i feel bad for them i feel bad for anybody that wants to attack anybody for their beliefs or for talking about stuff and guess what if your religion or your belief system is so easily destroyed that someone can have a disparaging opinion about it and that that threatens you to the point where you want to attack that person you're doing something wrong you're leading your life wrong.

You're on the wrong path. There's a lot of people that have different opinions about a lot of different things. And it's one of the more interesting things about life. Like, you don't like coconut water. I fucking love coconut water. We're allowed to. You like cologne. I think it smells like shit.

We're allowed to have different opinions. This is one of the beautiful things about life. People like different kinds of music, different styles of art. They like different kinds of houses and different landscapes. It's one of the things that makes people interesting. So the problem with any kind of ideology, the problem with what this represents or any other kind of cult or any other kind of really rigid structure is that human beings are very susceptible to those kind of routines. We're very susceptible to influence. We're very susceptible to other people carving out these predetermined patterns of behavior that you just quickly slot into.

Because it keeps you from having to form your own opinions. Right. And that's everything that's wrong. And you truly believe that you believe it. Yeah, I'm sure. And you do believe it. And it comes to form your own opinions. And that's everything that's wrong. And you truly believe that you believe it. Yeah, I'm sure. And you do believe it. And it comes from you. You do.

I mean, it's very easy for people to just slot themselves into these patterns and adopt those opinions as their own instead of trying to formulate their own because it's very complicated to try to formulate your own opinions. And they have to be flexible because new information comes up and then you have to kind of change them and adjust them and then recognize that perhaps like you're recognizing right now that like wow i've like kind of like i've lived a lie right for like a long period of time i mean it doesn't discredit you as a human it doesn't i mean and it's very brave of you to discuss that openly because it gives people that are listening to this the same sort of understanding of these thoughts that are in their own mind,

whether it's because of whatever religion, fill in the blank. And that's the other thing about this. How the fuck do they have tax-exempt status? Well, because they – first of all, the IRS, they answered the IRS questions to get that status. And one of them is do you have any other affiliation with any other god? Of which they said no. They believe that they are spiritual beings and they deal with the spirit.

And so they answered the questions that needed to be answered for the IRS. But isn't it amazing that any religion gets tax-exempt status? All of them are ridiculous. Well, I don't want to make a comment about other bona fide religions because I don't like— Do you think some of them are bona fide? Well, yes, I do. And I'm going to tell you why. distinction between an organization that takes your mind hostage from the minute you walk in and that you are you are required to be there 20 you know two and a half hours a day that your eternity is at stake that you the planet every man woman and child on this planet their lives

are at stake with what we do in scientology don't you think the people who are like super hardcore fundamentalist christ Christians believe that? You said fundamentalists. Okay, so I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about are what I witnessed as a child with my grandmother. My grandmother lived down the street from her church. We would walk in on the way to get, you know, sausage and meatballs and things she needed to make her sauce.

And she'd go in and light a candle for her friend sauce. And she'd go in and light a candle for her friend Connie, or she'd go in and light a candle because I lost my ring, or she'd pray to this saint or that saint. And when I was scared at night, she would say, pray to this person, pray to, you know, do your cross and God's going to protect you when you sleep. And here's your angel. And, you know, here's your little, you know, she would give me little, you know, the saints on the, on the necklaces and stuff. And she'd say, and I believed for that night that that saint was protecting me or that God was protecting me. And, and those moments, it gave me comfort. And so that's what

I tell my daughter. I don't want you to believe in anything, although I did baptize her as a Catholic. I said, I want you to really find your way with some kind of spirituality. But I'm going to baptize you a Catholic because I feel you need some kind of foundation. But I don't want you to be forced to believe in anything. But I want you to believe in something or you're going to fall for anything. And I didn't have structure as a child. know I had Scientology and that's the structure right well I mean a real a real religious base a real religious base correct have you ever heard the difference between a cult and religion

is a beautiful quote what is it cults bullshit it's created by one person that person knows it's bullshit in a a religion, that guy's dead. Right. Did you come up with that? No. No. Seems very Jewish. No.

It's just something I read. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. But it's true. So that was my experience of religion. Now, I know people feel very differently about religion being forced down their throat, but I would have kind of loved going with my family every Sunday to church I think it created when I saw my father doing that with his other daughters I was a little

bit jealous that we didn't have that right that we didn't get Easter dresses and it wasn't a big thing because my you know we didn't have that growing up. It gives you comfort right? Yes. Also the the I'm trying to look it doesn't cost a quarter of a million you know to get up to this level that I explained to you and by the end of it if you have made millions that you're going to give those millions away. It is a requirement. That's not a requirement in other religions, that you are not allowed to talk to certain people. Now I understand that there are other cults that do that, and I do call those things a cult because I don't think any organization, any church should tell people who they can and cannot talk to, what they can and cannot read, what they should and shouldn't do. The person should make their own decisions based on the information that's given to them or information that they find on their own. It's

very different. This is a pay before you go proposition. There are repercussions to leaving. Nobody knows that I went in and out of a Catholic church the other day and lit a candle. Nobody's calling me saying, where are you? Why are you not here? Who are you talking to? You need to come in. We're going to start working on your family, destroying your family. Who does that? I understand what you're saying. But there's different styles of behavior patterns that exist in all sorts of religions. Like Buddhism is radically different than Islam. And there's different requirements that they ask of the people.

And a lot of it is based on the environment that these religions were established in, based on how long these things have gone on for, whether or not the people that are a part of that religion have gone through the Enlightenment. Like what different factors played a part in what standards they uphold today and what make people. But my issue is always with subscribing to predetermined patterns of behavior and ideologies where they indoctrinate you on specific ways to think. And that's what this is. Yeah, that's what a lot of religions are. I mean, it's a real issue with with human beings well my grandmother of course was was as a man yes exactly

he's to think a certain way about people or lifestyle mm-hmm and but she had the choice to be friends with somebody who maybe wasn't those things. Right, sure. She had a choice. Yeah. We don't have a choice. No, it's pretty obvious that, especially in particular the way you're describing Scientology, it's far more suppressive than most and far more rigid in its behavior patterns.

Right. And they force you into these behavior patterns. And it's incredibly difficult to break behavior patterns. Right. Especially when you believe firmly in your heart that this is the right way to be. Yeah, and it's justified because you're clearing the planet. It's just amazing that they don't have to pay taxes. That's stunning if you look at their doctrine.

But that's the thing. Where there have been judges that should have looked into the doctrine, they said we cannot actually look into the doctrine. But they need to understand that you should have looked into the doctrine. They said we cannot actually look into the doctrine. But they need to understand that you need to look into the doctrine where it's abusive and hurting people. If your doctrine calls for you to hurt people, hurt children, the government does need to step in. You're right. Yeah. I agree.

Well, absolutely the accusations about the Sea Org and about people making $15 a week and about these people that are essentially working as indentured servants. Well, that's not illegal. They sign up for it. So as long as you sign up for it and sign that billion-dollar contract, you're not subject to any minimum wage laws or anything along those lines? No. And by the way, Joe, I'm not really that smart enough to speak on these things because people think that my agenda is to take away their tax-exempt status.

I would love for that to happen, but that's not the reason for the show. You just want to express yourself and be honest about your experiences and help other people be free. They're not my experiences. These are other people's experiences. But yours, too. Well, because I know it's true, because i experienced it um i'm co-signing and i'm saying you know if you're going to bully somebody bully me bully a and e but i'm going to let these people tell their stories because they're telling the truth right yeah and if we

weren't telling the truth you would have sued us so cut the shit already well that's what's interesting is the the disclaimer at the end of your episode the end of our episode it's in a hundred times yeah yeah it's bullshit but they got to do of our episode it's in a hundred times yeah yeah it's bullshit but they got to do it i understand it's smart to do it it's a lot to me it's annoying every time i see it i roll my eyes i mean every time i see it i go i understand it but you know it's it's it's annoying because what we're saying is true again this is a litigious group okay they aren't going to shy away from any lawsuit if they could have sued us, they would have. But they know what we're saying is true.

These are the policies of the church. Here's the thing, Joe. What they should do is go, yeah, we subscribe to these policies. You don't fucking like it. Don't be part of our church. But don't say we're all lying. It's right there on the internet, you assholes. I have the books in my freaking garage.

Right. What are you yawning about? Not yawning at all. I feel like you are. No, you assholes. I had the books in my freaking garage. Right. What are you yawning about? Not yawning at all. I feel like you are. No, no, no. I'm just thinking. Now, your current state right now, like doing this show and having all these people, I feel like you're helping a lot of them for sure because you're getting their message out there.

And again, it's a very heartbreaking message when you see these people and they're not in contact with their children and they're not in contact with their children they're not in contact with loved ones yeah i couldn't imagine my daughter doing those videos going my mother just wants to make a buck my i'm disgusted by my mother i'm disgusted that she that that she's my mother i would be it's crazy no it's crazy and i. And I'm one of the lucky ones. You know, like these things didn't happen to me, Joe. I wasn't molested. I wasn't hurt.

I wasn't physically hurt. I wasn't, my kids didn't disconnect from me. My mother didn't disconnect from me. I have my mother during the holidays. I have my sisters. I have my husband. Now, your life must have revolved around the church in a very big way socially. Yeah. What is that like now? Like all those people, they've written you off, right? Yeah. Um, it's sad. I'm sad for them because our relationship was, was obviously, um,

dependent on my relationship to the church of Scientology. You can understand that, right, from them being brainwashed? No, no, because they knew me. Right. So for my church to say Leah's an enemy of our church, my friend should have said bullshit. Well, aren't you kind of an enemy of them now, though? I don't know why I would be. They know we're telling the truth.

Right, but that truth is very damaging to their organization. Why is it damaging? Because their organization is— This is the policies of the church right you're right no i'm not saying anything stand behind it say you don't like it don't be part of it yeah but they can't really do that why because they're doing some up things baby they say they're the epitome of morality they're the the the elite of mankind they're saving the planet so So, go on their website and see that they say they're the largest growing religion. They are the only ones with

the solution to life, to man's ills. I'm not making this up. So when you make those kinds of claims, then stand behind it. Say, that's right. That's right. We don't believe in other things. We think you're all lost. We are extremists. We are big's right. That's right. I understand what you're saying. We don't believe in other things. We think you're all lost.

We are extremists. We are bigots. And these are our beliefs. And don't join us. We obviously have enough money. Do you communicate with any of the people? They're not allowed to talk to me. So no one.

As a matter of fact, I've seen celebrities who talk shit to me on Twitter and social media, not directly at me, and they run from me. They run from me at parties. And they're lucky. They're lucky that they run from me they run from me at parties and they're lucky they're lucky that they run because honestly I don't mind I don't mind you talking shit just when you see me back it up that's all just back it up when you see me I don't want to name you want to know why I don't want to name a name Joe yes because I don't want to give him that much credit I don't want to give him that you could just name and he's any celebrity that you know, like, that's a Scientologist.

Who do we have? We have Kirstie Alley. We have Tom Cruise. Kirstie Alley's still in? What? She called me a bigot. Yeah, she's big time. You're a bigot?

I'm a bigot. Because you don't like Scientology? Right. But I wasn't a bigot when I didn't like anybody else but Scientologists, right? Because that's what Scientology is. I was very much a bigot. And she knows it. Who else is great of ancestral she's deep ancestral Danny Masterson Laura prepon he was on the 70s show oh yeah she's in

right Laura prepon Juliet Lewis her brother lightfield she's so lightfield Lewis was just at a wedding. Juliette Lewis's brother, who I grew up with, Lightfield, okay, in the Scientology community. He was filming a wedding. He was, like, you know, doing the video. He literally ran for me and my husband at a wedding. And he was videoing the wedding. So whatever that shot was.

And my husband even said to him, he goes, hey, Liefeld, and he ran, and the other band members, because Andrew was singing, the other band members said, is he okay? And he's like, oh, he's just a Scientologist. Who else? I'm ignorant as to how many celebrities are Scientologists.

I don't know. Beck. Beck's a weird one. Why? Well, because he's a musician. You know, and he's like an uber creative. You would think that person's like super open-minded. He comes out with a song like, I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?

Did he come out with that song? It's his song. Are you sure? Yeah. I'm a loser, baby. Are you sure? That's him. So why don't you kill me?

Yeah, that's him. I loved that song. It's Beck. It's like his big hit. Are you sure? That's him. So why don't you kill me? Yeah, that's him. I loved that song. It's Beck. It's like his big hit. Are you sure? 100%. Okay. Jamie, you know, right?

Okay, this one's saying yes, so I believe him because he seems Beck-ish. Yeah. Yeah. Like a Beck, like he would be a nine inch nails person. That's Jamie. He wears Yeezys. Poor bastard. Look at him.

Douche. So douchey. He gave me an innie. Who else? Who else is in deep? Jenna Elfman, right? Jenna Elfman. She's still in deep?

Deep. Whatever happened to her? She had that big show? I don't know. We all go up and down in our careers. That's the thing, too. I love how the church tries to measure, like, she's an actress past her time. I was like, oh.

The church says that? Oh, yeah. It's on my website. How does anyone pass their time if you're still alive and acting, right? Yeah, I was famous. Betty White's not past her time. But I was famous enough when I was in. Right.

Oh, now you're past your time. That's what they're saying about you? Oh, hilarious. That's what they're saying about you? Oh, hilarious. Right, right, right. That's adorable. And by the way, you can't measure people. Like, we have an up and down career. Right.

But I don't need to work. I want to work. I love what I do. I love acting. I love making people laugh. But I don't need to do it. Right. You only need one solid hit in your life.

You know that. This is my passion this is something that I always wanted to do as far as helping people this is why I was in Scientology mm-hmm I loved helping people it was everything to me if somebody needed help I was there I just love it that's why I know like to talk shit about these people I know in their hearts they really believe they're helping even attacking me is helping right so i don't really want to call these people out like this specific person but but at least have the balls to back it up when

you see me so you believe they just have misguided intentions but their intentions are correct as you did at one point done too so you're uniquely qualified i would call anybody a liar a bigot i would tell the zinu story is a lie it's crazy you sound crazy what is the zinu story this is the story this is how they got to be attached to our bodies the zinu story is they got packaged what is it you can google they fell into a volcano it got dropped into a volcano or something? Yes. They got packaged. Like there was a planet that existed like this.

It looked like this. And then the Lord Xenu thought that there was too many people on the planet. So he packaged all these people up. Is that OT8 stuff? No, I think this is OT3 stuff. OT3. And what happens like at OT8? Your mom's out out now yes so hold on so you are told from the very beginning in Scientology that you have a reactive mind hmm and so in Dianetics you are

running out these bad experiences that you've had maybe this lifetime maybe last lifetime maybe lifetimes ago so you're you're told that you have a reactive mind and we're gonna take it away we're gonna find it and we're gonna take it away so you don't even know that you have it until you're told you have it right so you run all these like things these incidents like you'll get a picture in your head oh I'm getting a picture that I was like a French medieval times whatever they're like that's okay you don't have to believe it just say it just say what it is.

Yes. And then I was burned at stake. I was a witch. Obviously, I was in Salem and I was burnt because I have a problem with fire, you know. And you're making up these things as you go. And then you're like, I think I'm making these up. And then there's a policy that says the person is going to say by Elmwood Harbor that they're making it up, but they're not making it up. These are real pictures of real past lives.

I don't know. Right? Okay. making it up these are real pictures of real past lies i don't know right okay by the time you get to ot8 you're told okay so what wasn't true all of that was a lie you made that up but what is like what aren't you so i'm not a i'm not a body i'm not a arm i'm not a this i'm not i arm. I'm not a this. I'm not I was never Louis the the I was never that guy that I said I was never a witch in Salem. I was never so that's what OTA does that you're basically told what what wasn't true What are you like? What are you really? I'm just me is the answer How did your mom get out my mom got off that ship and she said I'm never

Going back. Why is that? I'm never doing another thing. Because she thought it was bullshit. But she thought it was okay when you were going through your OT3 thing and they're explaining to you that you're covered with bugs. You're not ready. Beings.

You're not, not bugs, baby. What didn't you understand? Do we need to go back? Baby, do we need to do it? No, we don't. But I'm laughing. I'm just joking around. Little beings. Beings. Not bugs. Like you'm laughing. I'm just joking around. Little beings.

Beings? Not bugs. Like you and I, just without a body. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So your mom got all the way past that. Yes.

And something, she decided at one point in time, it's bullshit. It wasn't for me. What was it that she decided? But she couldn't tell me that. If she would have told me that that that would have stopped me from going They would have pulled me in a meeting. When did she think it was bullshit? Oh no tea. Oh She got to the top. She can't tell me she thinks it's bullshit. I'm still coming up behind her right if I That if she then pulled me in and said Leah, this is bullshit

Like I don't want you to continue then Then I would have turned her in. I would have. Oh. You know what I'm saying? They would have gone to work on me. And your mother. You need to disconnect from your mother. She didn't want me to disconnect from her. That's so complicated.

She didn't want to lose her family. So you learn to be quiet. It's so complicated. It is complicated. And it takes years and years of this. It doesn't happen overnight. So your mom got to OTA. So she had to go to the ship.

Yeah. And is it the wackiest of the wacky when she got to there and she's like, this is nonsense. I'm done. She was just happy to be done finally. It was almost like she was free. Wow. Yeah. So what happens when she left?

Did they go, hey, where are you going? No, no, no. After you're done, they let you off the ship. Right. You complete it. You get get a cert and that's it and then you don't have to go every day anymore no and now but they created more ot levels now so she would have been called back in they created more yeah so you get to eight you know like look we just went to the vault right uncovered a scroll right we found some writings of L. Ron Hubbard before he passed. And I swear to God, it's not even a lie. And you believe it. Joe, don't laugh at me.

Because I feel bad for, like, I feel bad for people. I do too. Looking back, I go, you know, we all went into it, like, with a good heart. Like, we believed what they were saying. It was like, what do you mean you just found it? L. Ron Hubbard said it was the end of the bridge. It was OT8. And you mean you just found it? L. Ron Hubbard said it was the end of the bridge,

it was OT8. And we spent our whole life doing this. Like, you want there to be a definite end, you know, so you could live your life a little bit.

It's just incredible that a science fiction writer could create something like this that's so poorly written and poorly thought out. we only knew of his science fiction writing like from him telling us,

but it wasn't like we knew L. Ron Hubbard as a science fiction writer. But there must have been some knowledge of it, otherwise Battlefield Earth would have been made. Oh, of course. They have a whole building on, they have a whole literary building on Hollywood Boulevard called Arthur's Services, and it's all dedicated to L. Ron Hubbard's publishing. And you walk in, you think this man is a serious right like this is somebody who was really well accomplished for people don't know he wrote more books and wrote more stuff than more fiction than any human being

that's ever lived ever is that true yes he wrote more fiction than anyone who has ever walked the face of the planet. Does that say something about his OT abilities? He made up more shit than anyone who ever lived. So he wrote down more shit that never really happened than anyone who ever lived. But the Scientology stuff he was telling the truth about.

But you don't make that, you don't think that, you don't make that distinction. You're reading Dianetics because it's a self-help book right like you were searching for something bigger you know most people are looking for that and so you when you read that book and you're like oh I could cure myself of psychosomatic ills and right well he's it's that was a big part of going clear is that it seems pretty obvious that he was going through some issues himself and he's trying to

self-diagnose himself. He cured himself of blindness, he said. And you believe it. You want to believe it, Joe. You want to believe, like, I can cure myself of things. I am the cause of my own well-being by my own thoughts, and I don't want this reactive mind. And, you know, that makes sense, right? When people say, have you ever done anything that is uncontrollable to you, that you know is damaging to you?

And you're like, yeah, every day. I don't want to make bad decisions. Well, that's because it's your reactive mind. Right. It's beneath you. It's in your subconscious, deep in your subconscious. And we're going to help you find those areas. And we're going to help you to stop making bad decisions.

And who doesn't want that? Right. And you believe it. You know, you go from maybe, you know, punching somebody in the face, you know, for looking at you a certain way to being able to control your emotions. You're like, oh, okay, maybe this is working. Oh, okay, I used to do drugs. Now I don't. You know, in Kirstie's case, it saved her life.

So if she believes that it saved her life, it saved her life so if she believes that it saved her life it saved her life i'm not taking that away from her i'm not taking away your gains and your wins but don't take away the fact that you know i'm telling the truth and don't come from me when you know i'm telling the truth because then we do have a problem well it seems like yeah i mean they're a clan you, and you are opposing the clan. But they know it's true. Right. Listen, if you didn't know it was true, then I'd be like, oh, she's unaware.

She knows it's true. So to come from me is kind of crazy. It is kind of crazy. What is the predominant criticism amongst these people? They can't say you're lying, right? Yes, they say I'm lying. About what? They say we're all lying, baby, not just me.

We're'm lying. About what? They say we're all lying, baby, not just me. We're all lying. Any person who's spoken out against the church is lying. We are bigots. We are invalidating their religious beliefs. We are telling them that something didn't help them. We're not, nobody's saying that. Nobody's, if you feel you've been helped, you've been helped. However, you know the truth, and now you have a responsibility. But what they think is, I don't want to have a problem. Scientology helps me, and so that's all I care about. So you don't give a shit about abuses. You don't care that children were being molested and these things were being hidden.

You don't care that people were being beaten. What children are being molested? Honey, if you even just Google what I just said, Scientology and child molestation, you will come upon website after website of people saying, I was molested while I was in the church and the church said nothing about it. I'm not alleging it. This is what I've read. This is what I've seen. Right. I hadn't heard that before. You can hear it. You're going to hear it because people are becoming more and more vocal about what's happened to them.

And so if I seem overly passionate about this subject, it's because I have heard these stories over and over again behind the scenes. I have heard stories of people being abused, children being abused, mentally, physically, sexually. And I'm only me with a show. You know, A&E can't do anything other than just let me tell these stories. Right. So I'm virtually, and Mike Rinder and other avenues that we really can't talk about. I'm trying to do something right by these people. avenues that we really can't talk about. I'm trying to do something right by these people.

And so the last thing that I want to be bothered with is bullshit from a celebrity who knows that we're telling the truth about what we have already spoken about, but to be interested enough to maybe find out what I am talking about now. Right. Well, the Greta Van Susteren one is really odd because she's a news person. She's supposed to be a television news journalist, right? I mean, isn't that what she does? Well, I don't know. Yes, but why? Why is that?

Because I would just assume like you would want your news from someone who doesn't believe a bunch of wacky shit. Well, in her defense, I mean, who knows what any person believes? True. However, the distinction that I'm glad you did make is when you are hearing about abuses, when you are hearing about things that are happening that are hurting people, you then do need to say, I'm aligned with this organization. And so I do need to find out. Right. How long has she been in it? I think most of her life. There's a lot of people like that, right? You get indoctrinated as a child?

Always, yes. Have you received emails or any sort of contact from people who your show benefited and it was the catalyst for them leaving? A lot. No, for leaving? No. We've received tons of emails of people who said, I'm glad you told me that. I'm glad I watched your show.

I am well informed now. I will never step into a church of Scientology. What about people leaving because of it? Well, you're not getting Scientologists watching the show. Right. No, but they have shows, right? They do have TV, right? You don't have to be on the front.

Well, average Scientologists do, but they're not watching shows like this. They'd have to pay for that. Literally, Joe, like you'd have to go in the next day and pay to have your own interrogation and punishment handed to you for watching a show like ours or going clear. After a while, you just go, I don't want the punishment. Especially if you believe that I am the devil. especially if you believe that I am the devil. If you believe that I am a liar, that I have crossed over to another side, that I'm not to be listened to,

would you support somebody who is talking shit about you and your faith or your family and people you love? Would you go out of your way to listen to them? Maybe. But the average person doesn't want to seek out things that they think are damaging to them. What kind of blowback have you received from this? And what kind of blowback has a guy like Paul Haggis or Lawrence Wright or any of these people? Well, Paul had to watch his family go on his hate website that the Church of Scientology created and watch his family talk about him. Disconnect from him. Because they're still in it.

Because they're still in it. Disconnect from him. As every single person who's been on this show. They've been followed. They've been harassed. They've got PIs following them. They have people showing up at their jobs. They're getting mail all of a sudden.

People who don't even have never stepped into a church are getting mail connected to me. Mail at their house. They have never stepped into a church are getting male connected to me male at their house do you mean like they have never stepped into a church of Scientology the girl does my eyebrows she's like I don't know I said you never stepped into a church she said never she's getting male for the first time for the Church of Scientology it's just crazy but that that that's just a little anecdote but that but to have your family make videos of you, to not talk to you, to refuse to see you, their own grandchildren, that's just something I can't deal with. dealing with now is hearing stories of these people who have been silenced for years, the pain that they've had to deal with and sustain through these years, the fact that they're normal in any

way is a miracle. And so I hope to do something with them and I hope to make some change. What are the positive aspects of Scientology and and how do you think it benefited you, and do you think it's possible to take some of those positive aspects and either reform that organization or form another organization that doesn't try to control people's thinking but maybe tries to encourage the positive benefits of being a part of a group? I couldn't promote anything good about it because I know it's an all-in proposition. Right, but isn't there some benefits?

Yeah, you can read books. You can always buy the books if you want to buy the books. But I mean, I don't think there's... I go into a therapist now and I bring up concepts and she's like, oh yeah, that was in psychology. I'm like, what? Right, a lot of it is from that. A lot of it is from that. a lot of it is from that a lot

of this existed yeah you know um so yeah but i i believe in in uh um finding things that work for you i don't think it's one thing the one thing that my therapist teaching me is that it's not just one thing you know you get something from here you get something from there it's knowledges scientology is not about knowledges it's about. And this therapy thing is very new to you. You never went through any therapy. No, as a matter of fact, my first thing that I said to her is, I just want you to know that I think I know more than you. I was taught as a Scientologist that you have wasted your life going to college. I could do for a person in five minutes on this e-meter what you're going to do with me in five years.

And what did your therapist say? I understand. I understand. I understand that you feel that way. And she said, you know, that spirituality and religion should have nothing to do with the ego. Like, that stayed with me for a second because I was like, I have a huge ego. She's right. She's right.

But Scientologists believe that they have the answers. Like, that stayed with me for a second because I was like, I have a huge ego. She's right. She's right. Scientologists believe that they have the answers. And when you believe that, you have shut yourself off to the fruits of observation, to experiencing other people, to opening your heart up to things. I mean, it shuts you off completely. So you feel like this is a part of you that you're re-exploring or exploring maybe for the first time. Yeah, like your non-Cologne thing is like I'm so judgy about it, but I'm willing to maybe change my mind. My non-Cologne thing.

I'm sure you've seen that video of Tom Cruise where it's got the Mission Impossible sort of soundtrack playing in the background. He's talking about a car accident. Have you stumbled upon a car accident? Like you know that you are the one who has to take care of it because you're a Scientologist. You're the only one who can handle that. And you believe that when you're a Scientologist. You are not only, you are taught that we are the only ones doing anything, that you are the only ones. That's why it was so shocking to me when no one in my church was willing to stand with me. I was like, wow, so we are not those people who stand up, right? We are the people who look the other way.

Because you're all looking the other way because of time, because of Dave Miscavige, because you have no balls. Really? Are we those people? Because the truth of the matter is, when there was an accident, Joe, I did stop. I am that person that stops and say, are you okay? So that's one of the positive benefits of Scientology. Well, you feel that you're responsible for everything. And you felt like you wanted help as well. You felt you could help and you wanted to help. That's a positive thing, right? You're right. And all Scientologists do think they're helping. Right. So there's got to be some, like one of the things that I've found about a lot of Scientologists. No, that's a huge ego, Joe. If you think you're the only one doing anything right by the way there are other people who stopped but I

believe in my I believed that it was because I was a Scientologist that I stopped right but then I saw in life I was like wait a minute there's good people in the world they have no interest no ulterior motive no vested interest in helping somebody right there're like i'm almost shocked like with the show that's why like in in the last episode i was in tears i was a mess because i was shocked by the goodness of people that i thought the world was so screwed because of scientology because i thought we were the only good people in the world. Do you see what I'm saying? I know I sound so stupid and juvenile. It doesn't, though.

It completely makes sense. And honestly, from someone who's lived their entire life indoctrinated in that ideology, and you've only been out for four years, you're showing a remarkable amount of self-insight and a remarkable amount of self-insight and a remarkable amount of ability to examine the flaws of your past thinking and current yeah and current yeah because every day i'm like that's really messed up but but to abandon the foundation that you've kind of established your entire life on it's got

to be insanely difficult to do it in your 40s after all these years of being involved in this crazy sort of organization. It's very admirable. It's very hard. It'd be way easier for you to just keep staying, stay inside your comfort zone, keep doing all your nonsense, get up to O.T. 55 or whatever the fuck it is now, you know, and just keep paying the money and keep your friends. Do you miss any of your friends that were in it? No, I only miss the children of my goddaughter.

Because I see her. She lives in my neighborhood. And she can't talk to you? Well, her mother can't talk to me. She doesn't know me now. I delivered her. You know, delivered her in the hospital. And then we moved my friend close to me down the street so that she could be in a certain school district.

And then I'd be able to be with my goddaughter. And I see her in the neighborhood, and she can't talk to me. So, you know, my goddard doesn't know me she wouldn't know to come to me because she's now only you know five six you know i'm saying right um how are they hanging on how do they how do they stay they have amassed three billion dollars in assets three billion yes and so it takes it's going to take a few good men and women to stand up with us and, and, and get interested. You know, like I said, there's been a few public figures to, to publicly come out. You're now one of them. Conan is another one. And, and, you know, Bill Maher, like there's some people with some balls that are willing to say this is

bullshit and we should be doing something about it. The world at large is supportive of me and the people who are contributing to the show. Amazingly supportive. Social media has been amazing to us. And as well, A&E, very brave to do a show like this. This is the first time of its kind. I mean, a series about it. It took some balls on their part

They pussy it out with disclaimers, but okay. I think they probably had to do that for So I think more and more people are coming out more and more people are being supportive But we need more people in the public eye to say that's this is enough people are being supportive but we need more people in the public eye to say that's this is enough we need to do something what has it been like doing press for this and promoting it like what have been the varied reactions from people that you've had to talk to it's not been varied it's been very supportive and beyond touch by it like beyond i didn't know what i was going to get i didn't know if i was going to get people who were going to, you know, kind of walk the line and go, well, I don't know.

You know, the one problem I had was with Dan because I felt, you know, Dan knew enough. Dan was provided with enough. We've talked to him enough. Dan Harris, you know, from 2010. I was like, we can't be impartial about things we shouldn't be impartial

about. Like, come on. There's certain things in the world you need to stand up to, right? And I want people to feel that power, whether it's this cult or other cults or a political party or agenda. Like, I feel people have the power to do something. I think that's becoming more and more evident. And I think people need to start standing up for what they believe in. They can do something. And we get asked that all the time. Like, what can I do? I say, call your congressman. Call them and say, I want you to look into this. I want you to do something about this. If you're a lawyer who could do something, you should contact us. If you're

somebody who has knowledge of something that could help us prosecute, you need to come forward. Because a lot of the stories that we told, the statute of limitations on these abuses have already passed. And it's their words against, you know, a hundred others. Like, let's say we walked in right now to that base that I was telling you about. Most of them wouldn't leave. base that I was telling you about, most of them wouldn't leave. They don't know what's going on out here, babe. They don't know that what they're being told is not happening. You know what I mean?

They don't know. So I would love to do that. I would love to walk into those gates with the FBI and say, hey, you all who want to come with me, come with me now and we're going to take care of you. And I've asked Mike Rinder that many times and Mike's like, they won't go with you. I'll stand there and say, what are you talking about? You know you've been beaten. I beat you. You beat me.

He beat you. You beat people? You know what I'm saying? Well, yes. You had to beat people? He had to rough some people up, and he admits it in the show. But not you. You didn't beat anybody.

Did you have to smack anybody around? Do you mean in general? Because I did. On the show show I've been into a few fights I'm having clubs you've been in fights and clubs But you don't drink Well, I did drink Joe you did you did bad things while you were in in the group I did and you got lit up and out crack some people yeah, but that's because I'm from Brooklyn I

Blame I blame I blame Brooklyn. You blame Brooklyn? I'm kidding. That's strange. I'm kidding. I don't blame anybody but myself and my bad attitude. But did they ever make you smack anybody or anything like that? No, it's not about smacking.

It's about having— But he had to do that, right? He had to beat people? David Miscavige, this is what they have said, and they said it under oath. This is what they have said, and they said it under oath. David Muscavige, under his direction, has, and they have admitted to that. But where they admitted it, there'd be 20 people who said they're lying. Now, is this like a punishment thing?

Are they flogging these people? It's like they had a policy called overboarding when the ship was where the Sea Org lived, and they would overboard somebody who was out of line. So throw them overboard? Correct. So you toss them in the water? Right. And so now you don't have overboarding because you don't have ship, right? But when you say toss them in the water, do they pull them back out?

Or fuck you, swim to shore. I'm sure they threw them a line. I'm sure, you know. Yes, they got back on the boat, but it was a form of punishment. It was called overboarding. Yeah. Yeah. Now they've just assimilated that to be like, we don't have a boat, so we might as well crack him in the mouth or break his finger.

They don't have a boat anymore? No. Well, they have the free ones, but they don't have a seawork ship like they used to. Now they have bases, you know. They sell it? Celebrity Center. I don't know. Celebrity Center.

They have the Meta. Seems like a big factor. Like, what happened to the boat? Why are you obsessed with the boat? Because I feel like that would be a cool thing to own. Own the old Scientology boat. Go on parties. No, this is where they tell the people about OT sex, right in here.

Okay. Do you remember when I said that there was the Apollo? Okay, Joe, do we need to... There was a boat. That's what started the Sea Org. No, I understand. It was called the Apollo. Okay, Joe, do we need to... There was a boat that's what started the Sea Org. No, I understand. That was called the Apollo. Yeah. Where they give OTH is called the Freewinds.

They still have that. That's a different boat? Yes. Okay. That boat's still around? That boat's still around. Where's that boat? So you can buy that boat.

Probably in the Bahamas. Oh, that's where they go? Yeah. That's a good place to party and learn about thetans. They're not thetans. Thetan? And it's not partying. Oh, that's where they go? Yeah. That's a good place to party and learn about thetans. They're not thetans. Thetan? And it's not partying. Oh, okay.

Yeah. No partying at all? No partying. But when they do have a party, like if they have a big old celebration. Like I saw the one celebration. I would go to the gala every year in August. Oh, there's a gala? Yeah, at the Celebrity Center.

And what happens there? We listen to speeches about how much Scientology is accepted in the community by the LAPD. LAPD talks? Uh-huh. LAPD. So they contribute a bunch of money to the LAPD. Yes. They started a thing called the Police Activities Fund. League. Sorry. And I contributed to it and I helped it. And they put on a show for the kids every Christmas at Celebrity Center. And they give the money, the proceeds, to what they created, which is called the Police Activities League. And they present the LAPD with money for children. Well, that sounds great.

It's great. But listen, it's purposeful. There's a policy called safe pointing the community, and that's what they're doing. And I did it. So I know what it's about. You appear as if your intentions are pure so that you then have maybe favors like this happening where somebody files a police report and you get screwed with. God. Where do you think this is going?

Where do you anticipate your battle with this taking with this i don't have a battle i hope that we kind of do um no because i i joe if you receive the calls that i receive like when when i'm not working on the show because you know i'm the executive producer of this show so they're not safe to just call anybody. They're not going to call A&E. It's me and Mike. We're the ones who have to vet these stories and kind of people trust us because they know we're telling the truth. And they know that we have their best interest at heart in telling the story correctly. Right.

Their best interest at heart and telling the story correctly, right? And when you talk to these people when I talk to them behind the scenes It takes every piece of me not to break down. I have to be kind of Their auditor, you know, I mean their Scientology auditor to keep my shit together But when I hang up I'm devastated by it. I'm devastated by it like I've been part of this thing You know, I mean like I'm getting teary-eyed by it. I'm devastated by it. Like, ugh, I've been part of this thing. You know what I mean? Like, I'm getting teary-eyed talking about it now.

How many people are in it? Maybe 10,000 worldwide. That's it? Well, it gives the appearance because I thought, like, at these big events

at the Shrine Auditorium that they have every year, right, they show what Scientology is doing and they use things like hundreds of millions and these really kind of electrifying year, right? They show what Scientology is doing, and they use things like hundreds of millions and these really kind of electrifying statistics, right?

And we bought this building, and we bought that building, and that would indicate growth, right? That's the subliminal message to you, you know? There's people in there, but they are just buildings. But you believe that those buildings are being built. So they just bought some buildings. Well, they have to for tax purposes, right right and the appearance that it's growing but it's but they have to get offload some of this money do you have an end game with all this my end game is just to tell these people stories to validate that their pain is real i'm not going

to let the church bully them or scientology bully them into believing that they made it up that they're out to get money or fame you don't make money doing this show right you know i'm not saying and how long are you doing it for like how many i don't know i don't know i really how many episodes have you done we've only done eight and then two specials you know like some you know the reddit specials that we've done but you know there's a whole other there's a lot of stories to be told i didn't even scratch the surface so how many stories are we going to tell i don't know what's my end game my end game is that these stories get out there that people get incensed enough where this church well i have to call it a church this organization is is held responsible for the things that they have done.

And they stopped destroying families. I mean, there's so many tears to it that I don't know where it ends. I don't know where it ends. So there's no plan as far as like how long to continue this? I don't have a plan other than you're going to stop hurting people. That's it. You're going to take some responsibility for what you've done. These stories are real.

These are not liars. People don't say they were hurt and molested. They don't go on television for fame. They don't get money from doing that. They don't get money from doing that. Who wants to go on television and say, I was coerced into getting an abortion? And who does that for fame? Really, Joe?

I was hit. I was abused. I was sexually molested. I allowed this to happen. These things are not easy for people to admit to. Right. You know, you think it's easy for me to say I was, you know, I believed in this my whole life? That my mother believed in it her whole life?

That my step, like like we gave our life to this thing well you're very fortunate your mother made it out to fortunate god i've been here a long time i should go yeah and i'm sweating that's okay we'll wrap this up but you know how i feel about sweat like i can't even wait to get the shirt off that i'm you don't like sweat well depends i mean if it well i do like, but I don't like it when I'm dressed. Okay. All right. You like naked sweatiness. Congratulations on that.

Yeah. With clothes. But no, I think you're very brave. And I think what you're doing, not just in, it's like what you're doing with your show, but the way you're admitting your own personal demons and the battles that you're having with your own mind trying to sort of reformulate your view of the world and figure out who you are you know I think you it's very important and thank you very important people to hear thank you baby and honestly I really thank you for having me because I it's

that it doesn't come without some repercussions to you. I'm sure. But I want you to know that I appreciate it. I really do. Listen, my pleasure. And let's say hi again and not over some wackiness like this after all these years. It's been funny. I haven't seen you in so long. I got to tell you, the seven minutes before we started this, we had a very funny conversation. It was very funny.

No, seriously. Would you talk about it all the year? Would I? sure now. No. Yeah. Oh, yeah for sure But I think there's something there. I don't know. There's something funny about what we're talking about Nobody's gonna say what was it? What was it? What was it Joe smells and things? Oh smells and things periods Good night everybody Leah Remini show, when is it on? Well, it's done now. Yeah, but what... Oh, I think you can see it online at A&E. Well, it's on A&E all the time.

They show it constantly. It was on just a couple nights ago. Yes, and I'm so glad. Yeah, they're airing the shit out of it. So if people want to follow any of this, is there a website they can go to? I think they can go to A&E. God, I should know these things, right?

They'll find it. Google it, folks. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye, everybody. Was that good? That was great.