The Joe Rogan Experience - #936 - Colin Moriarty

Episode Date: March 24, 2017

Colin Moriarty is the co-founder of Kinda Funny and creator of Colin's Last Stand, a new series of videos about history and politics. Colin's Last Stand - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe3Dpne2qWldzpuiOd9hPLw

Boom and we're live. How are you, Carl? I'm alright. How are you? What's going on? A lot. You've got a lot of stuff happening, man. Yeah, yeah. First of all, thank you so much. My pleasure. This is amazing. Well, Dave Rubin recommends you and I listen to Dave Rubin's, I don't listen to a whole lot of people's recommendations, but Dave Rubin's one of them. He's been an amazing figure in my life just in the last less than even a month. He kind of was like my savior when like everyone was, you know, kicking me while I was down. He was the one that kind of reached a hand out, and so I owe him a great deal. Well, we should kind of explain what kicking you while you're down means

because it's more silly to me than anything because it doesn't really make sense. But you tweeted a joke, and it's a real simple joke. Jamie, see if you can pull up the joke. This is what happened. Colin tweeted a joke about a day without a woman. And everybody knows that a day without a woman was like that day without a Mexican thing, where you were supposed to like, well, imagine if there were no women. Well, if there were no women, first of all, there'd be no fucking people.

So, yeah. Yes. Women are super important. Of course. So you just write this tweet joke, ah, peace and quiet, hashtag a day without a woman. I would laugh. I would think it was funny, and I would move on, and that's it. So then, hold on a second.

Go above that. Go above that. Above it. Look at that. Sent this tweet, which was roundly condemned as sexist. Yeah, not really true if you leave the gaming industry, but roundly condemned in the gaming industry, for sure. Outside of that, people, I think normal everyday people that don't have an ax to grind about literally everything found it, read it,

maybe groaned or maybe laughed and then kept going about their day like a normal person. You're not allowed to have any personality anymore. No. If you work for any kind of a company that is in any way public where you can be targeted, where they can say, oh, that's the fucking guy. Go get him. Like anything that's remotely controversial. I mean, that is really remotely controversial.

It's just Al Bundy. Yeah. I mean, it's not even a good joke. And, you know, yeah, I heard you and Jim Norton talking about it. By the way, that video, someone clipped that out and put it up on some YouTube channel. That video is going to be a relic of my family forever. Everyone was like, I can't believe this. What is going on?

This is so great. So I really do appreciate you stepping up. And when I got your DM, by the way, on Twitter, I was like, what an amazing turn of events this has been for me. So I really am appreciative of you again. I just want you to know that. Oh, well, thank you. Stop saying that you're making me uncomfortable. Oh, sorry. But at the same time, I was in bed with my girlfriend actually when I wrote it and I showed it to her and I was like, it's kind of funny, right? It's kind of stupid. And she left, she's an ER nurse and she works the overnight shift. So she was just getting into bed as I

was getting up. And she's like, yeah, that was funny. Then we didn't really think twice about it. I sent it, I got in the shower, I went about my day. And, uh, and then when I got to work, I realized that it was a much bigger deal than I had thought. And, uh, and it was, and then everything fell apart and then was rebuilt very quickly. So, well, you resigned from the company that you worked for. Yeah. I founded it. I've co-founded the company. I owned a piece of it. And you resigned because of that. Yeah, yeah. Other reasons, too.

But, I mean, that was definitely the straw that broke the camel's back for me. What in the fuck, man? Yeah, it was just, I felt like, yeah. How is it possible that in this day and age, that simple tweet. By the way, if you reverse the sexes in that tweet, there's not a single man that would complain. And if he did, he's not a single man that would complain and if he did he's not a man yeah i agree and i say also that if a person that wasn't a self-described like moderate conservative or libertarian sent that joke it also wouldn't have you know gotten the

firestorm that's the thing joe is that you don't think a liberal man wouldn't have gotten a rash of shit and been sort of i think in this kicked out of the community maybe in a different maybe in a different place but not in the gaming industry, which is almost completely hyper-liberal. So I've had a target on my back for years. And that's, I think, kind of the point that's lost on some people is that this was just an opportunity. No one was offended by this joke.

No one was aghast. Like I said on Ruben, the second time I was on there, I said no one was crying in their shower, losing sleep, tossing and turning over this joke. Maybe someone was. Well I hope so because that's a we should find that person. Find that person and study them in a lab. But to me I was like no this is I mean it was clear a few

hours later when I finally realized what was happening I'm like this is they're in for the kill now. This is this is they found their way to get me. So why do you think they wanted to quote unquote get you? Because you know I live in San Francisco. I've lived there for 10 years. I was born and raised on Long Island.

But I went to college in Boston and then I moved to San Francisco. And it is as cartoonishly liberal as everyone thinks it is. So it's, and the gaming industry is there. The gaming media, the people that write about games and cover them and do all that kind of stuff, they're largely there. And it's a huge echo chamber. They don't like when people penetrate the echo chamber. And I made a name for myself in the industry over years. I was the senior editor of the biggest gaming website in the world for years. What website was that? IGN.com. And I was the senior editor there. And I made a name for myself not only with criticism

and with long form pieces, but basically I was writing pieces about political correctness in 2011 and 2012, people going after game developers, people going after all these things, and me kind of standing up and saying, this isn't okay, this character assassination. A good example for everyone out there that doesn't know games, there's this game called Borderlands 2. One of the developers was giving an interview about it. And this was back in, I think, 2011. He said something to the nature of this mode,

this particular mode in the game is accessible for everyone. It's like a girlfriend mode. If you want your girlfriend to come play, this was like a, he said, he insinuated that women can't play games and don't know how to play games or by using the term girlfriend mode. And people went after this guy and tried to get them, you know? And I wrote this piece saying like, what the hell is everyone doing? This guy just is trying to explain something. He's not a sexist. Why do you make these assumptions based on this one thing about him? And why do you want to ruin someone? And that's the whole thing.

They want to ruin people. So I was outspoken about this and I was outspoken for my support of Mitt Romney. And I was outspoken about my support for Gary Johnson and my outspoken. So they don't like that. They don't like that stuff. And I think that's pretty clear now. So you feel like there's a sort of a reinforced type of thinking, like a very liberal, reinforced type of thinking that you must subscribe to if you want to be a part of this. Yes, it's an orthodoxy.

It's a complete and utter orthodoxy. And it's it's it's what's so kind of nice about this, like the unintended consequence that I think is the silver lining of the dark cloud is people from the outside now saw firsthand like what i had been saying for a long time which was which was like i was kind of on the fringe i was kind of being pushed out and i got that literally thousands of people tweeting i mean facebook messaging me and doing everything being like wow this is fucking crazy these people really are out to get you based on that you know you would think uh i i said some horrible just offensive just truly awful thing do you think they're really out to get you or do you think they're capitalizing on a moment where they feel like you have a target on you? And they're like, kick him.

He's down. We got him. And it is. But this reaction culture that we have, like this over overreaction culture that we find ourself in today, it really does seem to foster that kind of behavior that people really like it when someone gets caught doing something or when someone says something inappropriate when you can just point the finger and then everybody can pile on yeah i think well let me put it a different way because i think you're probably right in a sense in the sense that i i never gained the benefit of the doubt with this group let's put it that way right so so it was one thing it was just the one thing the

dominoes that was tipped and it was, and they were down as opposed to, that's why I brought up the example before of if one of the people that they actually liked within that insular industry said the same thing, they might've been aghast, but they may, might've reached a handout or given that person a second chance. So I think that that all plays in, into the, you know, I have the Gadsden flag as my Twitter. I kind of had that first since 2009. I have, you know, I've, I've not been shy. The Gadsden flag being don't tread on me, the snake.

Right, exactly. Okay. You know, so there are just certain things that made me very different than other people in the industry. And I think, I definitely think that that plays a huge role. Well, your Twitter name is No Taxation. Yep, which is a reference to the American Revolution, which I know you know. A lot of people think, well, you know, no taxes? I'm like, that's not what it means.

I can't fit No Taxation without representation on Twitter. That's why it doesn't say that. Yeah, that would be a long ass title. Yeah, and unnecessarily long. You'd have no room for tweets, but it would make you very economical with your words. Yes. That's what I love about Twitter. You probably feel the same way.

I write something really long sometimes, and then I have to parse it and figure out how to make it fit. And it feels so good. It's very good for joke writing, for the skill of joke writing to make things more concise. I always tell people that I think the greatest joke writer or the greatest comedian is Joey Diaz. Because he says he gives you the most amount of visuals and impact with the least amount of words. It's just bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. He knows how to like sink it in really quickly.

And Twitter is like a good tool for that. But not if – that's a little ridiculous. That's – because you only – I don't know if that's the case how it is now. But well, actually, it definitely is. Right. Like if I write to you, if I reply to you, your name takes up a big chunk of what I tweet to you. But what you tweet doesn't take up. So it's like the 140 characters would be limiting people that respond to you rather than you tweeting.

Yeah, exactly. And the beauty is, too, as you've probably noticed is that I think in the last year or whatever, images used to take up characters, too, and videos and links. And I think the links are the only thing left that takes up the extra characters in addition to the name. But it keeps everyone curt. But that doesn't stop people from tweeting 7,000 times in a row. Oh, and put numbers on them.

I've done it, too. Yeah, I know. I did it just yesterday when I ran into some woman in San Francisco. I was walking my dog. I have a Boston Terrier. She was a little sick. Her poop was a little wet. So I went and picked it up, and I left some smear. You'd have to use your fingernails to get off the ground. Some woman came out of her apartment and started scolding me.

She was waiting by the window to scold me for this. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So I had to tweet out a few tweets about that just for for posterity yeah the twitter thing is very weird but here's something that I really don't like and I'm glad I don't see much of it anymore is that twit longer shit hey that's a loophole yeah yeah don't do that don't do that Ralphie May used to do that shit all the time he used to read his tweets I'm like what the fuck Ralphie why you're writing paragraphs here. You know what's going on. Yeah, some people you know I've done it, too Will like go in and Photoshop make a paragraph of a text and then make that the image they do that on an Instagram to Yeah, I've done that before I've drawn written things down and then taking a photo

I said I was gonna do that for a while that I think that Twitter is just too impersonal I'm gonna write all my stuff out and then take a picture of it. I was just fucking around. I think if that's the exception, I think it's totally fine. I don't want people ruining Twitter. I like the curtness. Yeah, it's good. It's a good format, but it also makes it extremely easy for people to do what happened to you. Yeah, exactly. Because nuance is lost, right? Yeah. Nuance is lost. Well, it's always lost in text. I mean, in writing, it's very difficult. I mean, even if you're reading a book, sometimes you have to go over the previous paragraphs to figure out exactly how this guy was setting this up.

But I think what's happening, what you're saying, I... See, there's two parts. One, the example that you gave before about the guy saying that it's like girlfriend mode. If he just said, it's like girlfriend mode if he just said It's like say if your girlfriend doesn't play video games, and she wants a really easily accessible You could do it that way, but I think people probably would attack him even for that Yeah, they would say what are you implying that girls don't play video games? Well, that's the input It's always the implication right like everyone's always out to assume the absolute worst and now so I was trying to write about Mike

This guy is just trying to make an example. He's probably given 15 PR interviews today. He's probably exhausted. He's also a developer, so he doesn't have much PR training. He's trying to just get the point across. Why do you have to assume the man is a sexist and a misogynist because of this one thing? I'm willing to die on that hill because I feel like people deserve the benefit of the doubt. People deserve to make a mistake or get a joke wrong or, you know, all those kinds of things. And I feel like, yes,

people are allowed to exercise their free speech on the other end and be like, I don't like that joke or I don't like this or I don't like that. But it's not it doesn't stop there with what's going on with Dave Chappelle this week. I thought it was really actually interesting with his two specials on Netflix. People are freaking out about, you know, his jokes is his jokes about gay people or transgender people or whatever. Well, he's comparing transgender people to black people and saying that it's a ridiculous comparison. Right. I actually, after I saw all the stuff, I went and watched the first one.

And then I watched half of the second one and I was falling asleep. So I didn't want to watch it anymore. But I was like, this is funny. And Anthony Jeselnik or Daniel Tosh would make these people shit their pants compared to what's going on with this kind of stuff and It's always this drama that that seeks to kind of it doesn't stop at saying like I don't like it It's often insinuated or outright spoken that they want to censor it or change it That's like where I because I was reading a piece specifically about Chappelle Where they're like this calls up questions as to why like how far should comedy go and

I'm like no that doesn't call and that's when the free speech argument ends for me That's what I'm like. You're actually now talking about changing it. Well, it doesn't work It doesn't work with us with comics. It just doesn't work. We're not gonna do it. It's too many people like it I understand what they're trying to do because when they live in that world of cubicles and human resources and very restricted patterns of behavior that you have to follow if you live in an office environment and work in an office environment or other, you know, there's a lot of people out there that are boxed into these terrible situations where you have to pretend to be this thing that you're not. And, again, you don't have any personality.

You're not allowed to say anything ridiculous or silly. And when you have that kind of environment and you see someone who's free, like Dave Chappelle, you want to stop it. And if you can, if you can point something out that can, oh, look, he's saying something that's inappropriate. He's saying something I don't agree with. He's saying something. Let's get him. Let's go get him. And then also, in defense of the writers that are writing these articles, look, they're in a bizarre environment where they have to fucking constantly defend like their position. They have to constantly get clicks. They have to constantly get hits. They can't just put an article out and nobody reads it. They'll lose

their job. So they have to write about something that's inflammatory, write about something that's salacious, something that's going to get people excited. I mean, that guy that wrote that thing about you for the International Business Times, I looked into that International Business Times. And one of the things about it is that there was a, I think it was a Mother Jones article about that website where they were told like that the people who write articles were given some ridiculous tasks like they have to get 10 000 hits per article they write right so that might have for people don't know there was a guy who wrote an article about colin where it said kind of funny's colin moriarty was uh resigns after writing a joke a racist joke that targeted women it wasn't racist even remotely in the

slightest but when you take into account the environment that these people are forced to work in and you say well this guy literally is forced to write something that's more fucked up than it really is so you have to get people excited about this in a way that's gonna get them to click on it and hopefully get him to his 10,000 hit quota if that is true I feel for him in a way I feel I mean I think he's working for a shitty business you know right but it's the same way I feel I mean I I actually you know I came from the editorial world where you have to get clear I mean we were getting our expectations were way higher and um you know did

you have those kind of requirements no not literally I know some sites do but some sites have like a quota yeah like a quota or like you get bonuses if you get you know certain amount of hits or whatever we didn't have that We were salaried or whatever and but you would if you would be fired Ultimately if you weren't writing things that people were reading right, but I know I tried to stay out of my way for you know writing inflammatory things actually there are a couple of examples where I wouldn't write a story because I felt like it wasn't pertinent to any information and it was specifically to assassinate someone's character Well, we found a problem here. You have fucking morals, dude Yeah, there's the door

Yeah, like no room in this business I had a I had a high a high profile woman in the gaming industry tell me in an interview that was Unrelated to what I was actually interviewing her that she never was once the victim of sexism in the industry, ever. And I was like, I could write this, but this isn't why I was there. I wasn't interviewing her about this. And this is going to cause her problems. And that's not who I am. Why would that cause her problems?

Because then people are going to jump on and be like, well, I experienced this, and I experienced this, and you're diminishing. And it would just cause her drama. I'm like, why would I do that to her? But it's not... See, this is where it drives me crazy. That's a beautiful example of people being cool if she can say hey I've never experienced any sexism in this business You'd be like wow the gaming industry must be really cool

And this woman has managed to get through the maze with a bunch of high fives and people appreciating her work wouldn't that be celebrated? You know what I'm saying? Why does that have to be, in some ways, a target? Why is that story a target? Wouldn't you assume that if there is a person who can reach a high level of prominence in this very complicated business, right? I mean, the gaming industry is incredibly complicated, especially how weighted everything is when it comes to male versus female stuff that whole Gamergate shit

Exposed so much of that which was really confusing to people on the outside especially people like me who don't play games right? I was like what in the fuck is using these gamer people yeah, it's confusing to me, too I mean that the the second story I think was more pertinent though which was this guy had like this guy worked at a big publisher He was and he was laid off, and he had like this huge meltdown on social media and People were writing about it, and I was like I knew him personally And not wasn't really friendly with him at the time But I knew him personally and I was like and everyone we should write about this and I'm like

What is this? What is this serving? What was the meltdown? He just he just had he was just going off about how He was just angry and sad He's a young kid that finally got in and then he lost his grip on the job and was and was laid off Whatever and he's fine now. He's back in the industry But the I was like I think I wasn't cut out to be like this hardcore like don't get him journalism like at any cost Cuz I was like this is gonna ruin this guy Like why would I want to contribute to this to this to this?

I didn't get into this industry to pile on people, to ruin their lives. I got into this industry to celebrate video games, to tell interesting stories about games, to challenge people's minds. And I always tried to take that with me where I was like, I'm not going to write anything for the clicks. I could write these, like you said, salacious headlines. I can write this dirt or this stuff I heard, whatever, but that's not who I am. That's not who I want to be.

And I'd rather contribute more positively to the ecosystem than be like, well, I'll just get clicks for this today. And this guy's got to read the story, and it's going to be in Google and LexisNexis forever. And it's going to, for what? So I can get 50,000 clicks one day and then just move on? He's not going to be able to move on. He didn't even do anything that is worthy of being writing about me writing about this Why are we always after people well your mindset is noble? I mean it is a great way to look at things It's it's weird that it's so unusual you know and that most people would be more self-serving and would choose

The path it's gonna get them the most clicks, and hey if I got a fucking crack a few eggs to make an omelet That's how it goes yeah, and that's not what cuz I don't want I never wanted the cannon to be turned on me Even though it wasn't actually you know what you know what I mean the cannon hate like the try to put out that energy that You want that's part. That's positive or at least constructive if someone like murders someone in the gaming industry. Yes, that's noteworthy We should probably write about that if someone depends on who they murdered Right well, what do you mean? Well? Some is a terrible person. They murdered him, like Punisher style. Well, that's different, I guess. We can have that conversation, I guess.

Yeah, no, I know what you're saying, man. I agree with you. Again, it's noble. Your mindset, your philosophy is very noble. And I wish more people shared it. And I think that when there's all these people scrambling around, like we're seeing now, trying to find their niche and trying to get attention And you find more of that kind of

predatory behavior Yeah, I agree and and well that brings me back to Joe to what we were saying specifically about We feel bad for these writers at these sites and to me like the analogy I draw is like I hate the TSA Right, there's normal people that work for the TSA that are just trying to do their thing But that doesn't mean I don't hate the system that they work? There's normal people that work for the TSA that are just trying to do their thing. But that doesn't mean I don't hate the system that they work under and think the system should change. And it's the same thing here. It's like, yeah, these guys are victimized by the set of circumstances under which they have to write.

But that doesn't mean that the system should remain the same because they need to write those stories. Let's talk about the TSA. Okay. Because I know more about that than I know about business. Sure. About your business, rather. Sure. Like, what do you hate about the TSA? They're infringing on your Fourth Amendment rights. They're warrantless searches.

They illegally seize things. I mean, this is written very clearly in the Bill of Rights. So, and I hate the whole argument of like, well, you don't have, you know, or you you kind of pass by your rights or, you know, give them up when you're in the airport. And I'm like, no, they're inalienable actually. So I just have a huge problem. I don't have a problem

going through a metal detector or something reasonable a reasonable search. Yeah Well, it's it's kind of reasonable because there are carbon fiber blades and all these different Plastic blades that they can make now that you could really fuck somebody up That are not gonna show up in a metal detector sure But I it goes back to the first of all you know I don't think that we're going to have many problems on airplanes anymore. I think that they're moving on to something else. And no plane is going to get hijacked anymore now that everyone knows what's going to happen.

But dude, as soon as you think like that, that's when something happens. That could be a legitimate argument. I also want to give a shout out that serious things happen. My dad's a retired New York City firefighter. So that hit very close. clean new people that died that day But it's still you know and my dad could have died that day depending on the circumstances. Thank God he didn't But to me it was like I just would write it's like the old Benjamin Franklin thing You know it's balancing your for your liberty and your freedom with security right?

And I think that we've we've given them so much power With the Patriot Act, with the TSA, with all these things where I'm like, this is a bad road to go down and they're just going to take more and more. Yeah, what is the Benjamin Franklin quote? He who values safety over... Yeah, over liberty deserves neither safety nor liberty.

Yeah. I think the TSA has a ridiculously hard job. And I think the requirements that people have, what people request of them to make sure that they are safe and then you give them ten dollars an hour whatever the fuck they make they don't make much you know and what you get is a bunch of underqualified people who are tired and they're tired of working like the constant flow if you watch how I like to study people at the airport because I feel like it's one of the rare watch how, I like to study people at the airport because I

feel like it's one of the rare times where you could just stare at people while they're doing their job and no one gets weird with you because everybody's staring at that guy or that girl that's taking your license and scanning your ticket and all that. So I just stare at them and I watch how they, how they interact with all these people and people are fucking tired. That's what I see. I see, I see frustration. I see so many people in these lines and I see people just being exhausted. And then the people that have to deal with the people that don't take their shoes off.

Sorry, you have to take your shoes off. Why don't I take my shoes off? Take your fucking shoes off, man. You see that kind of thinking, right? Right.

They're just, they're on the edge all the time. So you're not dealing with them. Well, sir, you have to take your shoes off because it's going through this thing. It's not like he has one guy's dealing with your whole day He's dealing with this constant river of human beings that are coming through and some of them have water bottles and you got to make

Sure those dangerous water bottles don't get on the plane There's a lot of stupid shit that that goes with the TSA But how the fuck else are you gonna keep people from bringing shoe bombs or knives on planes? And it's really hard to do no it is I mean I don't I don't think that the the the the The counterpoint would be to just get rid of it to just walk into a terminal and be able to get on an airplane But I remember you know you remember too and a lot of people do We had a security apparatus before 9-11 these guys outsmarted the security apparatus by doing very specific things

Including like knowing how to fly planes and doing all the things that you can't possibly doing very specific things, including knowing how to fly planes and doing all the things that you can't possibly check for. And also, people get guns and knives and weapons intentionally through the TSA all the time. I think, wasn't it something like over 90% of agents that were trying to get things through the TSA succeeded?

These are the people standing in between us and ISIS. Yeah. People do it accidentally all the time. They have stuff in their bag and it gets through and then they go, what the fuck? You know what I mean? It happens all the time. Yeah, I knew a bag and it gets through and then they go, what the fuck? You know, I mean, it happens all the time. Yeah, I knew a guy that brought a ton of weed overseas on accident. That's terrifying.

That scares the shit out of me. Me too. I go through my bed just for anything you might leave in there in your bags. I always comb through just to make sure there's nothing. You never know what's going to happen. But to the point, he didn't mean to do that. But there it was. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a perfect system, and it's not going to be and that's just the way it is It would be nice if it was more efficient. It would be nice that people got paid better

It'd be nice if it was easier and quicker. There'd be a lot of it would be nice But I don't know of anybody that's come up with a better system for scanning people and making sure that they don't bring Guns or bombs or whatever the fuck it is on an airplane. It's just bizarre that airplanes are the one place where we have so much fucking security. Where malls, which are filled with way more people than your average plane, there's something about terror and flying where it's already terrifying. Like, yeah, you think you're scared now, bitch? What if it blows up in the fucking sky?

A dude pulls a fucking turban out of his bag and wraps around his head and starts lighting his underwear on fire you know that's that's what we're scared of we're scared of someone taking it to the next level because people are Already tense yeah, cuz you're in a metal tube hurling through the sky at 500 miles an hour if it blows up while you're doing that It's even more freaky. Oh my god. It's horrifying. I mean weird. It's terrifying, but like it's it's kind of strange whereas like That seems to be like the preferred method of terror like that We're really worried about which is why the TSA exists in the first place because The the volume of humans that go through a lot of places is probably commensurate with the volume of humans that go through the airport

Oh sure, you don't have a single place that you could mention the airport. Oh sure. But you don't have a single place that you could mention that's as strict with what you carry around as the airport. You could walk into the fucking mall with a loaded gun any day of the week. Any day of the week. Every single time I walk on the mall, I am just never checked. Nobody frisks me. I don't go through any metal detectors. You could walk in armed to the fucking teeth. And who's going to stop you? The mall security guard? The fuck out of here. In his little SUV? During Christmas time, there are thousands of people

at the mall. Thousands. Thousands and thousands. Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's more like the Israeli experience where this kind of shit can happen at any time, anywhere. They're very vigilant about that. I've often wondered that as well. Why doesn't, even at a security checkpoint in an airport, why not just do it there? Like, and I really think it's that they, you know, to your point with the mall and all these kinds of things and these public places,

I think it just speaks to the fact that most people, vast majority of people are just good, decent people that want to go about their lives. And that these terrorists could target all of these different places. I don't think they do maybe because they can't, but probably more because they don't want to give themselves away for something that might be seen as minor. Like 9-11 was a spectacle. It wasn't only that 3,000 some odd people died. It was that it was the spectacle of killing those people in that way. And so I think that there's something about that as well, which is why I'm more scared about like a dirty bomb or something like that today than I am of anyone taking an airplane over because everyone knows what happened in 2001. So now

someone pulls out a knife on an airplane and tries someone's just gonna tackle that guy and probably kill him Oh, yeah, you know so that's why I'm not sure that's why I'm the guy Yeah, I know the guy tried to blow his shoe up or something like that on the plane That's why we have to take our fucking shoes off now, but yeah to me I'm like the the the threat has changed the threat is evolving and we can be vigilant in all these ways But then I wonder it goes back to like NSA and all these things like how much are we gonna give the government and how? Much are we gonna give up in order for safety? I'd rather live in a more dangerous world first personally and know that no one's reading my text messages or no one's

Throwing out my hand lotion, you know or Harassing I saw these these two women Australian women in the airport at SFO when I came down to LA last week They were in wheelchairs They were going wheelchairs. They were going through all of their stuff. And I'm like, what the fuck are you doing to these people? Just leave them alone. And I actually went up to them afterwards.

And I'm like, I'm sorry. We hate these people, too, just so you know. So this is not OK with any of us. They were there for like a half an hour. They had these frowns on their faces. They looked dejected. This might be their first time in the States, for all I know. Good.

Keep them out. Here's what happens. You come over here. We check your shit. Take your pants off. What do you got in there? It's like what are you packing the harassing old women the harassment? You know harassing I think I saw in JFK once like going through like a nuns bag or something like what? What this is madness to me? I'm like this is not Everyone's turning on each other But it's not because if it wasn't if they didn't go through everyone thoroughly and they oh we're gonna let nuns go Through and then what happens someone goes in dresses a nun and they act as a terrorist they or they are a terrorist

I like the someone I don't know much about it You probably know more about it than I do but someone was telling me a little bit about the is right the way the Israelis Do airport security specifically that it's it they it's like all about It's they're not profiling but even based on race or anything They're profiling based on like your behavior and it goes to your point like these are well-paid Professional people that know what the fuck they're doing no they're looking for and they're in the airport And they see someone just acting a little weird well And they also do some crazy shit like I had a friend who went there and she took photos of

some anti-semitic Pictures some like Nazi swastikas on something so you know what the Israeli guys did at the airport they shot her computer and they gave it back really yes Jesus yeah so there's that's a little over the top yeah so there's a there's that a little more balanced than that they said can we see your computer and they opened up her computer the terrible it is really accident even know where to go with it they just put a fucking hole she heard dunk dunk and they gave her back her fucking computer

That's um that's half hour later. That's that's that's a little too strong arm for me But uh to your point to the point like I don't know what this I just don't like the security theater aspect of it We all know what's going on everyone does inconvenience these people are miserable. We're miserable It's just it goes back down to the no one wants to make hard decisions or even do it like really hard work like what? Works what doesn't let's do studies Let's figure out what what we're doing instead of looking at people naked in machines And well you also have to take the well you don't really see anyone naked in machines anymore That's not real I know but back in the day, but even back in the day. It was just like come on man

What are you worried about? What are we worried about people are so silly you worried about people seeing naked? But the the the thing that gets to me though, is how can you make it safer? No one has offered up any sort of alternative to the TSA that makes any sense to me. I've heard people say the TSA is incompetent. I fucking hate them. Violation of the Fourth Amendment. But there's no alternatives that I've seen that they're even remotely responsible.

No, I mean, I think it goes back to me of like, I can't speak necessarily to the level of incompetence because I'm not in security. I don't know what they're even remotely responsible. No, I mean, I think it goes back to me of like, I can't speak necessarily to the level of incompetence because I'm not in security. I don't know like what they're specifically doing. I don't know what their level of training is. It just goes back to the constitutionality of it. Like if we, and it brings up those tough questions. It's the same way I feel about the second amendment. If we start seeding what this means in certain situations,

then before you know it, they'll just continue to erode it away. And so when I'm like, this is a warrantless search. This is by definition a warrantless search. If you went and got John Jay and James Madison and all these guys and asked them and somehow told them what the fuck was going on and then said like, what is, does this look like? Right. But you would have to go and get them and then go, okay, this is ISIS and this is the internet.

And then this is Twitter. And this is a, this is how they send information through pictures with metadata. It's encoded in the picture, and you have to break it down. That's where the message is. They'd be like, oh, yeah, search everybody. Oh, my God, you live in a terrible place. They'd be like, I've got to go to bed and really process this. Yeah, like back in the day when we only had muskets, it was so awesome.

I don't know if my argument makes sense to you, but to me, I just feel like these are certain sacred rights that need to be protected in any way they can. And if we want to have a conversation about why we should cede this right in a specific way, then you have to do it a little more clearly. And to me, I think people take some of these things for granted that, you know, what's stopping them from, you know, if these rights continue to erode, then what stops them from busting into your house at some point and be like, well. If these rights continue to erode, then what stops them from busting into your house at some point and be like, well. Well, they can do that. And there are some search and seizure methods that they're really being criticized for lately in particular for drug offenses where they just don't even knock. They just break open people's doors and wind up shooting their dogs all the time, shoot people all the time. I mean, there was an article written recently about the amount of people that are wounded in unnecessary, like, how do they describe that kind of altercation between the cops? No knock, no searchless warrants, or what is it? I think they just call it no knock break-ins or something like that. I don't know how they describe it,

but if you've seen the way the DEA treats any sort of a situation, even when they just have marijuana, they'll kick down the door. If they see a dog, they shoot it. And then they make people huddle up in the corner after they just murdered your family pet, and oftentimes they find, like, a pipe. You know, I mean, there's many people that have been called on,

like someone has turned them in or someone has said something about them that turned out to not be true. Like, hey, these people have a grow up in their business or in their house rather. And one of them was a former FBI, a couple that both worked in the FBI. They kicked in their fucking door, held them at gunpoint. The whole deal went to the basement. They were growing tomatoes. And they're like, what in the fuck these are retired FBI officers and the DEA broke down their door and

Pointed a loaded gun in their face and then found plants Yeah, you can eat that you can eat you can eat weed too. Yeah, you can it's actually not bad for you I uh I so these things are happening actually that one thing sounds familiar with the family pet being killed I think I saw a video on that on YouTube. There's a lot of it. It's not just one thing, man. One of them was a mayor. And God damn it. Was it Washington?

Where was it? Where was it? There was a mayor who the, it turned out that the post office, someone in the post office was running a scam. And what they were doing was they were having weed sent to other people's addresses and they were sending it through the post office and the postman would intercept the package because he was the guy who delivered that address so he would get that package and somehow or another it got intercepted before it got to the postman and then they had a dummy postman come and bring it and then do the whole break down the door shoot the dog thing they chased the dog a golden lab chased him out in the yard the good the

dog ran and I was running and hiding and they shot him in front of everybody and it turned out that the guy who was the victim of this and his family who were held at gunpoint and zip tied it was a mayor and so you know he was like what in the fuck are you people doing like what is this you just killed my dog in front of my kids you traumatized my family Yeah, it's awful, but you're making the argument in my opinion of why we have to take a stand You know like why we have to say like in that situation. Yes, yeah, but just but just not TSA though No, but it's but it is a fourth amendment issue that we would that are allowed to be eroding

No one should be allowed to go into anyone's home without a warrant no matter what but don't you think that you sort of imply at least a certain amount of consent when you get in that line and give them your bag and say, here, search this. Like no one's telling you that you have to do that. Sure. Like you could choose to fly with no baggage at all. You could choose, if you wanted to, to send your stuff through the mail. And it would probably cost the same amount as it would to pay that 50 bucks or whatever it is with Southwest. it would probably cost the same amount as it would to pay that 50 bucks or whatever it is with Southwest. If you wanted to send your package through the mail, you could do it that way and just walk through with nothing on you.

Sure, you could do that, yeah. And you would still have to go through the machines and all that. I don't dispute that because I agree with you. In the pre-9-11 world, going through the metal detector, having your bags, looking at it through the machine, I think that that's all reasonable. I just don't like the people being pulled aside, pulled into rooms, people just going, kind of very disrespectfully going through shit. I don't know's all reasonable. I just don't like the people being pulled aside, pulled into rooms, people just going to the kind of very disrespectfully going through shit. And I don't know. To me, I have I just is that is that a hill worth dying on in a way?

It is because I feel like it could just as you made the point, it's already see that mentality now seeps into lots of different places. Right. And I just don't want to see what I don't want to see the end result of that. That mentality is also the justification for the NSA being able to look at your text messages or being able to look at your emails. And that's the big thing that was exposed by Edward Snowden that really pissed me off that so many people were so flipping about. They were like, hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, don't worry about it. Like that is wrong. You can't say that because you can't look at everyone. You can't just randomly look at everyone and look at

their private information. You just can't do that because the people that are looking at that are just people. And that's the problem with the TSA. It's not even necessarily the issue being that you get to search people's stuff to make sure there's no terrorists and no people bringing weapons on a plane. It's who gets to do that? Who are these people? Are these people experts? Are these people security experts? Do they work for the Mossad? Are they CIA agents? Are they FBI? Who's looking? Who are these people?

Are they competent? Why are they doing? You go to the airport, man. What you see is a bunch of people, and I used to do a joke about this, that I think that, how do I phrase this? Make it sound less insulting than it used to be. That was an old joke. But the idea was that I think that the people that work at Burger King at the airport and the TSA, they're the same people. And they just reach into a hat.

Today I got fries. Oh, shit, I'm on bomb duty. It's literally almost like that. It's like you see people that are just taking whatever job they can get a hold of. I feel for them. I mean, if someone comes along and you don't have a job and they say, hey, the TSA's hiring, 15 bucks an hour. Okay, cool.

What do I got to do? You got to stand here and make sure that people don't bring water bottles on a plane. All right. And then after like, you know, the 50th day of people bringing water, take your fucking water bottle out of the bag. You know what you're doing. Yeah. My frustration grows in that way, which is people that in 2017 seem to have some, because

you and I, I'm sure you do too. I fly all the time, right? So you see all types, right? And it's like you always encounter the guys. Like, have you not flown in the last 15 years ever to know that people trying to walk through the machines with their shoes on, their belt? It's like, what is good? And then their inconvenience. People that don't push their bins through the, you know, down to the thing and just leave it there for someone else to push through.

I'm like, what is going on with people? And some people are just cunts. There was this one guy who was really kind of funny. He was going through the Metal detector thing and he had a bottle of water in his bag and because he had a bottle of water in his bag They had to check his bag and so when he goes through they set your bag aside You know your thing goes through line. It hits the scanner, and they said they pull it back check So this guy was like checking his phone and look at the bag I mean like 30 seconds had gone by and he goes I have a flight to catch excuse me excuse me I have a flight to catch and the woman who grabbed his back said what are the odds?

You're at an airport. You got a flight to catch how crazy and she goes Hey, you got a water bottle in your bag dummy And she pulled and everybody was laughing it was funny because the guy was being a cunt right and the girl Just kind of called him out on it and the way she did it was very humorous. I got a good chuckle out of it Yeah, that's good. I mean yeah, you see I always try to show to your point about showing some respect to the TSA agents I have my confrontations with them somewhat do you what kind of confrontations? Yeah, well just in the sense like just a Couple of weeks ago. I guess it was when I came down to see Dave

I was with my girlfriend. And they were going through a bag. They held my girlfriend's bag, but they were just holding it to a point for minutes. We weren't in a rush. But I'm like, the guy wasn't even acknowledging that like, hey, dude, our stuff's here. We're kind of just standing here waiting. And I said to him, are you enjoying your little bit of power right now? I don't understand why you're doing this to us. We said please and thank you. We're doing like doing our stuff

So just these little confrontations I had a massive when I was in when I was in still in high school because 9-11 happened when I was in 12th grade and I flew down to in 2002 early 2002 I flew down to Virginia to see my sister who was teaching down there and I They were going through my stuff my bags and stuff like that And I had a confrontation with the TSA where there were some of them. One of them was like, son, do you know what happened or whatever? You know, and I'm like, yeah, I know what happened.

I'm from New York. I live in New York. Have you heard of 9-11, son? And my dad's a New York City firefighter. Yeah, I understand what happened. You know, and like to the point where like like where they called over like I was a 17 year old kid. And to the point where they called over like some cops and then they were just they like just let me go or whatever. But I was like at that point it was so in me where I I'm like why are you being so why are you disrespecting me like you're going through my stuff if I'm a little upset about that or I have something to say about that like I understand you have to probably deal with this all day but don't don't because I'm a young kid I don't know what happened because I'm a young man I don't you had no idea what my experience was were you at the funeral for a firefighter that you knew that died you know I was I was. So, like, you know, it's that kind of stuff always.

I think it's sowed a seed in me very early with them where I'm like, eh. So I acknowledge that part of it, too, you know, where it's like there is a little bit of a chip on my shoulder with them. I'm sure there is. I never have a confrontation with them. I'm always super friendly. I go through, say hi to people. I just treat it as, like, just this is what I'm doing now. I don't say this is a big inconvenience.

I just say this is what you have to do. this is what I'm doing now. I don't say this is a big inconvenience. I just say, this is what you have to do. This is what I'm doing now. I do respect this idea that the fourth amendment is being violated, but I do not see a better alternative. If I did, I would think that, well, we should definitely follow that protocol, whatever the better alternative is. I just think whenever you have non-skilled labor in those sort of situations, like the guy working the fries at Burger King, or the guy who's, you know, doing that thing at the TSA, you're going to get a wide variety of people that need a job. Right. And some of them are just going to suck at protocol.

They're going to suck at being polite. They're going to suck at recognizing that this old, and I don't think they have any leeway either. If some old lady comes through in a wheelchair, I'm pretty sure you have to check her, just like you check everybody else. And if don't you probably get fired they have cameras watching them everywhere so it's not their fault the organization itself the TSA I mean there's a diffusion of responsibility when you're in one of the people that's responsible you're at the top and you make these these laws and you pass them down to the people that are supposed to enforce all these

regulations that you you know you've you've written down to the people that are supposed to enforce all these regulations that you've written down, there's almost like there's a diffusion of responsibility from the people that have created those laws. They don't have to enforce them. They're not out there doing it. So someone else, it's someone else's job, the $10 an hour guy, it's his job to go out there and do all this stuff. And so it's real easy for someone at the top who's not experiencing the interaction, the day-to-day interaction with these human beings to be callous about it or to make like hard, fast rules like, hey, if someone comes through in a wheelchair, there's no leeway.

Let them go. But then again, you have to think about it in their point of view. Like if someone was a terrorist and they did decide, well, here's what we do. I mean, it's been proven for a fact that they've used children as suicide bombers. So why wouldn't you use an old lady? You know, why wouldn't you use an old man? Why would I use someone in a wheelchair? You certainly could so you have to follow the same protocol with everybody Everybody that goes through has to be scanned

You can't let someone need not be scanned just because they're old like you've reached a certain amount of years on this planet You wouldn't do anything fucking crazy. Would you Bob? You know, no, not me You know you you you can't think like that because if you do think like that that will be your vulnerability That would be the path in that someone who's looking to do something horrible will take I think that the The I think the solution job to bridge the gap in the way We feel about this and like come to some sort of consensus What might be and this conflicts a little bit with my small government kind of mentality? But it's just to say like it to ask the kind of fundamental question

Why are these people being paid ten or fifteen dollars an hour back to the Israeli experience of these guys that are professionals there? They take a lot of pride in their work They make maybe eighty thousand or a hundred thousand dollars a year and they you know not that they need it necessarily need to make that Much money, but people that are professional should we invest more money in and making this smarter? You know it would be a substantial increase in our airline fees and sure to other things. I'm sure sure maybe it wouldn't Well, we already pay a little bit of that in but with tickets But I think you know homeland security might be able to maybe we stopped dropping bombs on a bunch of countries and take some Of that money and put it on and put it on you know into that dairy

What else you suggest no more drones fucking communists? Who is this guy yeah I mean that what the Israeli thing is interesting because Israel has a mandatory military service requirement that I am NOT in favor for favor of but I am like party so the same way I feel the I feel the benefit of it like you it's very rare to meet people that are more patriotic than Israelis you know people that are more patriotic than Israelis, people that are more committed to their country. It's like a very – I mean they feel very marginalized, very targeted, and rightly so. And so because of that, like people that I've met that work for the Israeli army or that have been soldiers over there, they have this very intense sort of view of altercation and of the world.

And when you're forced to do two years military service mandatory like they are, you also have, you're invested in this whole project of Israel. I mean, there's no veterans and then civilians. Everyone's a fucking veteran. And when you know, when you deal with a country where literally everyone does some military service, there's everybody's there's more chips in the game. You know, people are all in. It's a different different scenario. Yeah, I think, you know, I went to school with this girl that was Israeli when I was at Northeastern in Boston. And I remember very clearly she had this. You wouldn't very unassuming.

You would never know. But she had this picture of her with an assault rifle shooting at a range. I'm like, this is so so so interesting it conflicts because I agree with you It's like one of those things where I'm like I don't I can see both sides of this where? I don't know that the state should have the right to exert that kind of power over a person But at the same time does it have to be military service? so when a person turns 18 is it fair to say like just spend a couple years and give something to your country and Whether it's you you you work in a soup kitchen

or something or you do something that is for the society and really have some some investment in some skin in the game in society i think that that's a nice idea but i think that the way i feel about the state's exertion of power over the individual kind of overrides that but i like i like the idea in principle like the idea of saying like hey and it's also easy for me as a 32 year old that would be long you know to be like ah you guys do it so at the same time. I understand that argument as well No, I think I'm completely in agreement with you I love the idea that they're all in but I don't want anybody enforcing that on me And I want I want a kid if a kid grows up in America and then decides hey man

I'm gonna backpack across the country now. You can't you got to join the army fuck I don't want that you know I want I want people to do whatever the fuck they want. Hey, I want to be a fly fishing guide in Colorado. No, you can't. You have to clean machine guns. No, fuck that. I love the fact that America has so much ultimate freedom for like what you choose to do and not to do. Look, we live in this sort of experiment in self-government, and you can not participate if you want to. I like that. I like that you don't have to vote. I mean, I'm not saying that everybody should fuck off and not vote, but I am saying that I like that it's your option.

Me too. I think they have compulsory voting in Australia, I want to say. And look how that works out. Fucking kangaroos are everywhere, dude. Crocodiles. And spiders. Poisonous bugs and shit. God, that place looks horrifying, but but the

No, I've never been Lived there. It's like that's number three on my list. Yeah, we're number one America number two Canada number three Australia That seems like a pretty reasonable list. I mean I know I Good list just being in the gaming industry I know a lot of people some people I really love that came from Australia really friendly people But the interior that country sounds like like just an absolute fucking shit show. It's crazy, but it's also really gorgeous. It's wild. I have a good buddy who lives over there who goes into the interior all the time.

And he's the one who sent me a video of a brown snake getting killed by some evil spider. There's some brown snake kills you like instantly. And there's some evil spider that was killing the brown snake. I'm like, what the fuck kind of a shithole do you live in, Adam? He's a madman. He's out there living in that shit. A man like me would not be able to survive there. This dude camps out there.

He goes out into the bush and shoots buffaloes with a bow and arrow. He's a maniac. But the area of Australia is the size of the continental United States but there's as many people as Less than the amount of people that live in the greater Los Angeles area live in the entire this whole Fucking continent of Australia. It's nuts. It's incredible. Yeah, it's like Perth on the on the west coast And then it's just Sydney and Melbourne right on the east Coast and that's basically it. Well, there's Queensland. There's a few other places.

But the bottom line is there's a giant percentage of that place where you don't want to get caught dead. No, I wouldn't. I'm the kind of guy where I see a spider and I have to argue with my girlfriend who's going to kill it. So I don't want to. Do you really? Yeah. You argue? You got to step up, bro.

Get those man points. It always ends up on me, but I hate I hate I have I hate spiders So so if I see even these little way, I hate them. Do you get arachnophobia? No, I don't think I have that I'm not gonna like if I see one crawling me I'm not gonna run out the house, but I'm like I don't want it is this thing in a job I have to like really think about my strategy on how I'm gonna kill this thing Yeah, yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like so if I was in Australia, I'm just being honest with you So I was in Australia, you know, that'd be super careful in Australia. Oh my god, dude

I see some of these things when people are outside barbecuing, even in like Melbourne or something like that. Yeah. And the camera pans. Oh look,

it's a brown snake. And I'm like, holy Jesus God. I wouldn't, I don't know. That's not true. The waters are filled with sharks.

If you get past the sharks, they're filled with jellyfish. You get to the shore, there's poisonous spiders. You go into the hills, there's poisonous fucking snakes. What is it about that part of the world? It's ruthless. It's unbelievable. Yeah. They're filled with jellyfish you get to the shore this poisonous spiders you go into the hills as poisons fucking snake What is it about that part of the world like it's unbelievable? Yeah, they put their man o war and all that kind of stuff in the water and and the

Box jellyfish are the scariest Can kill you they kill you if you fall into like some sort of a patch or what do they call them a school of? Jellyfish if you accidentally stumble upon one you're a dead person you're fucked I mean they just you're dead instantly. Yeah, they're a little tiny guys Yeah, some of this warm onion Their heart that jellyfish are always scary because growing up on Long Island We had obviously harmless jellyfish, but they would wash up on the shore sometimes and there You know I used to look at them. I was like these are so strange. What is this Jamie? Oh?

You know I used to look at them. I was kind of like these are so strange. What is this Jamie? Oh? Spider killing a brown snake another one so spiders just eat ground snakes all the time is it caught in its web Yeah, cool. Yeah, fine webs are awesome. It's horrifying not me not to me snakes are cunts I don't know whose team I'm on I think I'm on team snake more than I am on team spider I think I am too just because they're less scary to me. Plus, well, you can eat spiders. Apparently tarantulas are delicious and they cook them a lot in the Amazon. They have these big spiders that they cook and they're a lot like crabs. They taste like crabs and apparently they're really similar in like their lineage, their genetic. Interesting. Yeah.

I mean, if you put a piece of, if you put a spider in front of me, I didn't know what it was. Even if I did know what it was, you know, it's not going to kill you when it's dead. Yeah, I'd eat it. Yeah. If it's good, if it's delectable, that's's why I should say I've eaten spiders before that's pure factor. I've eaten a couple spiders. I ate a cave African Cave dwelling spider Jamie just freaked out you must have seen some things on that show man like yeah I'm pretty numb yeah, I guess that explains a lot of your kind of more. You've seen it all like an old prostitute I've seen too much

You know 50 year old prostitute in Holland like whatever Smoking a cigarette nothing you can show or do to me that lipstick on my teeth. I'm not even bother to clean it off I'm curious about Cuz you brought it up before but what is your stance on Snowden? It seems like you're against the NSA all that kind of stuff But what is your stance on him like I'm curious like you're against the NSA, all that kind of stuff. But what is your stance on him? I'm curious. Do you think he should come back?

Do you think that he should – is he a patriot? I think he's more of a patriot than he is a traitor. I agree. But I think it's a very complex issue when you give away national secrets and you have signed an oath that you're not going to give away national secrets. You sign an oath of secrecy and then you give away national secrets. But if those national secrets are, in the case of Edward Snowden, they're very detrimental to what we think of as freedom in this country. Like if you have a bunch of people like you or me or Jamie or just a normal person, and they work at the NSA and they can, as he has said, spy on their ex-girlfriends, read their emails, go into anybody's email that you want to and check them out. And then we were also being lied to by the government about the extent of these searches.

And he exposed that, that the president was saying it's just metadata. And he was saying, no, it's not just metadata. It's not. It's the actual emails. It's the actual text messages. It's the actual photos that you're sending to each other. They can get those. They have all of those. And that they're storing all this stuff. People were horrified. But this was also something that was exposed. There was an NSA whistleblower from, I want to say 2011. There was a guy who was a, I think he was a coder in the NSA. And he's gone public with this. But he didn't go public with this in the same way where he dumped a bunch of

documents and let people go through them like Edward Snowden did. And he also didn't face the consequences that Edward Snowden did as well. He was criticized and it was debated whether or not him talking about it at all was legal or whether he should be able to, but ultimately he didn't face the same kind of consequences. I mean, Edward Snowden can't live in America anymore. I mean, Chelsea Manning has been exonerated, or what is... A pardoned... Pardoned. Yeah, yeah.

Is that the word? It wasn't a pardon. It was commuted. Commuted a sentence? Yeah, commuted a sentence, right. So they commuted the sentence, and she's allowed to be free in May, so in a couple months she'll be free. But he's stuck in Russia. And he essentially, the difference being, they said that Chelsea Manning went to, like, went through the court system, was tried.

And then Obama decided that it was a good enough amount of time. And then he was going to commute the sentence. So I kind of see their point there that Edward Snowden fleed and didn't go through the whole, but, but why wouldn't he flee? You're going to lock him in a fucking cage. Chelsea Manning was locked in a cage 24 hours a day with the lights on with no fucking clothes in solitary confinement, confinement for, I don't know how long, but it was a long period of time. I want to say years. I want to say how long long was find out how long was Chelsea Manning in solitary confinement? for because I know the way they did it it was cold in there and

They took away all her clothes or it was his clothes at the time was it was he and when do you when do you start? Saying him or her yeah, I think the deal of that yeah I don't I think at the oh that's a good point when you're thinking back on the person before they transitioned like do you say that? Bruce Jenner won the Olympics, so do you you say that Bruce Jenner won the Olympics? So do you say the Caitlyn Jenner won the Olympics Jesus? I don't know. Hey, what I'm afraid to say the wrong thing Okay, the former army analyst with two weeks of solitary confinement connection with a suicide attempt in July. No, no, that's just one The decline to discipline them with two weeks no, but she's been in solitary confinement Not just over the suicide attempt. This is like way late.

That's 2016. Go, not the solitary confinement after suicide attempt, but just go to solitary confinement. And don't look at Chelsea. Look at Bradley Manning, solitary confinement. Yeah, it was before he was tried. Yeah, it was like you could say he. Can you say he?

Can you get yelled at? I bet you could. I bet you could get yelled at. Sure you will. For say he. Can you say he? Can you get yelled at? I bet you could. I bet you could get yelled at. Sure you will. For say he. But I think it's reasonable to say before the transition when you look back in posterity on a person, maybe it's up to that person, but I would assume that the pronoun would change at that point. I don't give a fuck.

It's ridiculous. It's too confusing. It's so stupid. There's a case of a transgender fighter who was a man for 30 years, became a woman for two years, and started beating the fuck out of these women. How is that okay? And didn't tell them, by the way. Oh, so the organizers or whatever didn't tell? No, he didn't tell, or she, whatever.

Didn't tell the people that she was fighting. But here's the best part about it. I was debating with someone online, and this woman said that she's always been a woman that this person has always been a woman and I said okay do you realize that this person fathered a child I said so even when he was a man having sex with a woman and got her pregnant he was a woman then and this woman goes even then I'm like okay we're done well fuck doesn't make any sense okay 23 hours a day for over an 11-month period. Holy shit.

And conditions that he also found might have constituted torture. I was going to say, that sounds torturous. Yeah, Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at the U.S. military base in May of 2010. He concludes the U.S. military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day for over an 11-month period in conditions that he found. Okay. So, yeah, that was what it was. It was almost a year of solitary confinement, and I'm pretty sure that he at the time, she now, was naked.

And they took everything away from him. No books, no nothing. Solitary confinement. Nothing from him. No books. No nothing so really No, nothing to read and cold they keep it cold. They keep it cold where you're like barely able to tolerate it Holy shit. What do you do? Like what is your weight is your what are the places your mind goes? I would start doing kung fu Yeah, I'll just start just start working it Wesley Snipes in that one movie where they kept him locked up. I think stripped naked at night. Yeah.

I think that, you know, what they did was what they are allowed to do. You know, you're allowed to do whatever you want to do. When you get someone locked up like that, they don't really have the kind of rights that an average person does. You get locked up for treason. an average person does. You get locked up for treason. And there was a tremendous amount of heat coming towards the U.S. military when that WikiLeaks video, what was it called? What did they call it? Something about collateral murder. I think that was what they called the video. Was it drones?

No, it was a helicopter. Oh, I know. Okay, I know what you're talking about, yeah. Helicopter shooting fucking horrific gunfire down on these people that turned out to be reporters. And then the callous attitude that these soldiers showed in the video, we can hear them talking about whether or not there were kids in the van. Well, they shouldn't have brought kids. Like the whole thing was like really dark.

And I think in a lot of ways, exposure to that stuff is good because unchecked behavior is extremely dangerous that seemed like it was unchecked and it seems like unchecked behavior in a time of war is extremely dangerous and it was pretty obvious that when you looked at what Edward Snowden had revealed it was pretty obvious that the majority of the American people had a huge problem with it the majority of the American people you or I who are doing nothing wrong. I'm not committing any crimes. I'm certainly not victimizing anybody. Why do they have access to my email? Why? There's no reason? No reason. You just can? That seems insane.

And that to me is a way clearer violation of the fourth amendment than this weird sort of gray area. not necessarily gray if you're looking in from a constitutional sense of how they're allowed to check you at the airport you know that's a very valid and solid argument I think because my stance on manning specifically has softened softened over time because I feel like you know when he or she what I don't know can we call her Z Z I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just don't know what I'm supposed to.

You are being disrespectful. I'm sorry. You fucking son of a bitch. I'm sorry. You're racist too, I heard. I know, I know. That's what, Lexus Nexus will call me a racist for the rest of my life.

But yeah, to me it was like, I felt like it was very, they didn't take the time to, people died because of that stuff. Like there were people that were put in danger because of the things that they were put out

because it wasn't, they didn't carefully comb through it and make sure that he's actually what people died. Yeah I mean you could they I don't think that look that up So that's yeah, but because of the way WikiLeaks released it Yeah, because I don't think that I don't know if they're gonna point that specific things But the way things were outed like I don't think all the names were blacked out I don't think like operate the operations in process like people were in play You know that were being outed in that way

I think the reason I was a little softer on Snowden was because not only was it domestic primarily, which I think is an important qualifier, but also because I think he went out of his way to not single any individuals out. It was all about the apparatus itself. It wasn't about like saying like general blah, blah, blah is doing this and general or admiral. It was about like, hey, this structure exists and it's really as quite nefarious indeed you know and i think that so i was always to me my stance on him is he's a patriot and he should be welcomed home and the fact that he wasn't he can't be i guess pardon he hasn't been tried or whatever but the fact that i know that some people think that obama only pardoned manning because it made him look good with the transgender

community and with the lBGTQ community, which I think is a little... Well, he's leaving office, though. Well, because it's part of his legacy. It's the same reason why how much Ford was hurt when he pardoned Nixon. That stuck with him forever in a negative way. Well, this is going to stick with Obama, I think, positively in a good way moving forward. But I don't know that I'm quite that callous in thinking that that's the only reason. I think that he probably had time to marinate on it. Clearly, she went through

some rigors. Well, also, what's important to point out is that Obama's website, the Hope and Change website that he had when he was running for president and when he got into office, the original website had in it these provisions for how he was going to treat whistleblowers. website had in it these provisions for how he was going to treat whistleblowers with with they were going to like allow people to release information that showed crimes and they were going to protect them they're going to protect whistleblowers it was a very specific um statement it was a very specific approach that they were having while he was running for president about whistleblowers because he was about exposing these egregious offenses. And once he got into office, one of the things that happened after the Chelsea Manning thing

and after the Edward Snowden things, they removed that from the Hope and Change website. They removed that provision about whistleblowers. Because obviously he was either a hypocrite or he was unable to keep that promise. Right. Well, that goes back to the whole thing with Snowden when you were saying, well, you kind of take an oath, you know, to protect these secrets and all that kind of stuff. But I look at it, you know, I don't want people to be flippant with that kind of stuff that you were saying. I don't want people to be flippantly being like, well, this is I have some sort of personal problem with this. But I actually think it takes a level of courage to be like, what in the fuck is going on here?

Oh, for sure. And also, I believe that before he gave that information to Glenn Greenwald, I believe he offered it to a bunch of different mainstream news sources like the New York Times, Washington Post. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jamie. I think that was in the documentary. I didn't see it. Oh, it's Citizen Four or something like that. I fell asleep. I tried to watch it in the hotel room.

What's up, Jamie? I was going to say, which one did you want me to look up? Because it said no one died as a result. Oh, okay. Well, I'm wrong. Which one? Which one? The one earlier about Manning.

Okay. But, Jamie, it doesn't say anything about, like, that was, I remember that being contentious, that they were saying, the reason that they were upset about it was because they were like, this puts people that are in play in danger now. Well, maybe that. Maybe it puts them in danger. Right, right. But maybe no one actually died.

That's good to know. A writer had a USA Today piece, I think, about it, and she got a lot of heat for Pope for even writing that In the first place that puts people in danger that people died from the result of his leaks, okay? So she got a lot of heat because they haven't oh, oh interesting. That's probably what it is. You probably read that okay? Yeah, man people again. You're a racist and people have died. I mean Google says it this might be you know I'm saying I mean like people need clickbait so with her writing an article saying that bunch of people died or someone died It's this kind of the same thing they're trying to make something juicier sure it go and even with the London terrorist attack You know recent one yeah the one that just happened where people they seem to have identified the person

New sources that were that are what you think are reputable it, and then they have to retract it later. Everyone's very quick to try to pull the gun first and be like, well, we have the story. And then we're all victimized as people that are just, we're not in the trenches, so we need the information. We have to trust these people. And trust is broken, I think, in a little way. Yeah, I certainly think there should be

some sort of a national debate on whether or not Edward Snowden is a hero, whether or not Edward Snowden did something that benefited the American people. Because I certainly think the overall reaction, the overall, like if you look at what Edward Snowden did and then you look at what are the consequences of what he did, I think it's good for us because we got to see that all these Alex Jones type conspiracies were actually true When Alex Jones is ranting and raving about the government looking in your emails one of the great episodes of this show by the way I love it. Yeah, but people were looking into that like there's no fucking way

There's no way the government really looks in your email. There's no way it doesn't happen but yes, they do like that was that was a stunner to me and as for me was it I Had been telling people that Alex Jones who's my friend and has been my friend for a long time and I get criticized so much by people from that they're like he's so crazy and he's such a fucking right-wing wacko my Alex Jones is not right-wing he's not he's anti-government he's anti-tyranny and he might be crazy as fuck and he probably is but he's right about a lot of shit and that's where it gets really scary so he was talking about the NSA looking into people's emails and having the ability to Like I found out about that NSA whistleblower the original one see if you could find who that guy is I want to say

Yes, yes pulled it pull it pull up that article. I found out about that from Alex He told me about him went what and then I hear Bill Binney the original NSA whistleblower on Snowden, 9-11, and illegal surveillance. Now, he was, God, I want to say it was before 9-11. Wasn't it before 9-11 that he came out with this? Scroll down. Or was it right after 9-11? He believes that 9-11 was preventable a month after it happened. He resigned to protest from the National Security Agency. Binney was part of an elite NSA team which designed and built an intelligence-gathering system

to target and collect data on terrorism threats. He belongs to an intimate group of four whistleblowers, each of whom left the NSA after raising concerns about failures in the agency's intelligence-gathering capabilities. Yeah, so he was the first guy that was saying what they're doing is bullshit. Oh, here he alleges. Yeah, there it is. The NSA buried key intelligence that could have prevented 9-11.

He alleges the agency's bulk data collection from internet and telephone communications is unconstitutional and illegal in the U.S. He alleges that the NSA is ineffective at preventing terrorism because analysts are too swamped with information. Now, that makes sense. Under its bulk collection program. That totally makes sense. Yeah, when you have everything, where do you begin?

Yeah, I mean, all those things that he said. I mean, there's no way. I mean, that's the thing. Like, a friend of mine was joking around about this because, man, I'm just not comfortable with the NSA reading my email. I go of course you're not comfortable I'm not either but guess what? Who's fucking reading your shit man? Nobody's reading your shit. Yeah, no, yeah, it's that's not even the point right? Yeah Well, it goes back to the point. We're making because with the Patriot Act after 9-11 they made the same argument

Well, if you have nothing to hide right, but the problem is as soon as something comes up like they go Hmm, it's Colin Moriarty's been talking a lot of shit. Let's find out what he's into Oh, look at that a bunch of dick pics right right time to put those on that But uh, yeah, no, I I think I kind of I think we're in the league with that I think Snowden is like a hero. I feel like what he did took a lot of courage And and and it blew up his life. I would like to if I I go to Russia, and I might go to Russia for the UFC, I'd like to meet that dude. I'd like to interview him.

He probably would talk to you. Jamie, you want to go to Russia? Big pause. We'll talk about this off the air. My dad went when I was younger, and I was trying to think, like, how did that go for him? I don't want to put you on the spot. But if it was possible to meet that guy, I would love to meet that guy.

I don't know if they just let you meet him, though. I bet it would be, like, really hard. I know John Oliver met him. Shane Smith did, too. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Maybe I could go with Shane. Get Shane to hook it up.

He would probably love to talk to you. I mean, he seems like an interesting—he's probably caught under constant surveillance, you have to assume. I'm sure. I would be fucked when I came back. They'd probably check everything. Oh, my God, dude. I would be I would be fucked when I came back They probably check everything oh my god I would like to sit down with that guy for a few hours like do like a six-hour interview with him and just Pick him apart and ask like what is your life like now man like how many brushing chicks you banging? Are you here over here?

They pay you what do you how do you eat? What do you do to feed yourself like where's he getting his money? He must get a stipend of some sort you have to assume right? I mean, yes, no you I mean he's a guest of theirs So you have to assume that he's taken care of in some way right? But I mean he probably has to keep his value high like at a certain point in time like they Could say hey, you're not valuable to us anymore time to live in Guatemala bitch He I mean he's a very smart man So he must know at the highest level that he's a

geopolitical pawn that like you said could be played in any way at any point. If I was him I would just be listening to Rosetta Stone with Russia all day long. I'd be like I need to find out how to speak Russian and I need to fucking go hide in Siberia or some shit. I need to grow my beard out.

Yeah he's an interesting cat. Like I'm somewhat fascinated by him. I don't think we've I think Yeah, he's an interesting cat. I'm somewhat fascinated by him. I don't think we've, I think he'll come back at some point. Neil deGrasse Tyson had a fascinating interview with him on StarTalk Radio, where I was, and Neil deGrasse Tyson essentially was saying the same thing, that he thinks he's a patriot. You know, and Neil doesn't really take too many stances that are really political in that regard,

but I think as far as like data collection, random, just a blanket data collection of all the people in the United States, I think it's fucked. And it's absolutely not what we think of when we think of the freedom that the United States supposedly provides its citizens. It seems like we're all under suspicion then. We're all being under surveillance. That's some really creepy Orwell-type shit. You know, that's just not what we want. It's extremely Orwellian. And I feel like with Snowden, sometimes people miss the forest for the trees with it.

They're very focused on the man, the act. But they're not focused on, you know, one of the things that I'm really interested in is, like, what is the level of complicity with the telecoms? Like, what is the complicity with the government like forcing these people and and and there's a whole there's a and how many thousands of people are in on this and that's the whole that's the crazy thing is that snowden who was a contractor not even really in the inner sanctum of the nsa right knew all of this stuff there are people running around thousands of people just acting like this never happened or wasn't going on it's a it's a pretty it's not a conspiracy because we know

it's true but it's a pretty big thing where I'm like it's focusing on Snowden is missing the entire point. There's like Why are all the quick? Why didn't no one like no Sprint or T-Mobile or anyone was like hey? Well you imagine the kind of coup would have been for one of those companies to be like We're not doing this and in fact like we're gonna tell everyone no, but you know like well This will make us look amazing well You know from a very shrewd corporate stance to be like well This would be we don't write, but let's be honest that would never happen And if it did happen they would come down on that company so hard there has to be some weird sort of arrangements that these got

Gigantic telecommunication companies like Verizon or something has with the federal government. I mean just has to be I think it's just protecting the bottom I mean, I'm sure that there's some something can do, but they don't care about anything but money. Well, I have a friend who used to be a big executive at Google, and she described to me some of the conversations that they had when to agree to with the government in order to make sure that they were there. They had to restrict the searches. They had to censor things. I mean, the government of China does not feel the same way about freedom as the government of the United States. And the government of the United States gets real sketchy with it. As soon as you're doing what Edward Snowden has proven that they're doing, you're getting

really sketchy with freedom. I mean, you can land on the free, home on the brave, except I want to look at your dick pics. Except I want to read your emails. Except I want to listen to your voicemails. Except I want to be able to track your calls. Except I want to be able to know where your phone is at all times. I mean, that metadata from where the location of your phone is,

is one of the primary ways they target terrorists. I mean, people who are not aware of why so many civilians die in these terrorist attacks, part of the reason, especially in the early days of drone attacks, when they were trying to target terrorists, rather would was that they would use the metadata They would find out where the phones are so if your phone was in this apartment building They're gonna bomb that apartment building. It's like whoa. Yeah, it's very deep It's very technical and and I have no problem with them going to a shadow court and getting like a permission to be like we're tracking This guy's phone right now Right which we're reading this guy or this organization's emails or people that are kind of within seven degrees of separation

Or whatever from this person there at least there's some sort of orderly nature to it right like right You don't need to be reading my emails of you know or my you know I'm just getting uber receipts sent to my email Or it's like what what why are you even storing all this in the link? What is what uses it other than that obviously they want trends they want data that they can big high up data You know eagle-eye data and saying like this is the trend and all these kinds of things But it's all ill begotten because it's like it's not it's not right and that was the disappointing and you probably feel the same way Joe is like after

Snowden and NSA was a big story, but then everyone kind of just like yeah, yeah, and everyone kind of forgot Well, they're still kind of doing a lot of the same You know kind of thing we didn't they didn't affect what we know about it now But we didn't we don't know that the level of change that was affected really and yeah we don't and and to me I feel like this is the thing where you got to keep the pedal down and you got to keep going and be like this is not okay this is not right and and it's the same thing with with the Patriot back in the day where everyone was really upset about that well you

have every right to be upset about that's really egregious stuff sure the NDAA I mean the NDAA what they've essentially done is they've eliminated the right of due process. They can lock you up for as long as they want. They can deny you any sort of a legal representation. That's all been taken away from us now. What used to be one of the foundations of being an American, the right to due process, the right to have a lawyer, the right to a trial of your own peers. All that stuff is kind of gone now. They just decide that you're a terrorist. And they could decide you're a terrorist if you have weed on you.

If you're involved in illegal drugs, you can be, under the Patriot Act, considered a terrorist. It's really kind of crazy. It is. And it's scary in the sense, too, because it goes back to what they were saying what this Gentleman was saying that we were just talking about Where he was saying like there? Oh, they have too much data They have too much to work with and at some point someone has to be like hey the guy with an ounce of weed or the Guy would you know even with the four ounces of weed?

Why are we dumping him in with all the stuff? That's just gonna muddy the waters more about the real target that we're really going after which is someone that's actually going to hurt someone Or someone that's actually going to hurt someone or someone that's actually going to cause a terrorist incident. To me, I would, if I were them, I'd be like, we need less. We need way more targeted data. We need to leave 325 million people alone, probably. At least. And here's another big part of the problem was that when Obama was instituting these

changes and when the NDAA got passed and when people were saying, well we're never gonna use it this is one of the things that they said we're never gonna hold people without legal representation indefinitely we're never gonna use the indefinite detainment okay but that's you what if a crazy person becomes president cut to President Trump right we now have a crazy person yep crazy person is now president and you're like well now what well what about these fucking crazy laws, Obama, that you passed when you thought that it would be nothing but your standard politicians and hopefully Democrats from now to the end of time?

Guess what? Now it's not. Now it's a guy who wants to dismantle the Environmental Protection Agency. Now it's a guy who wants to drill pipelines through Dakota Access. This is a guy that wants to do a lot of stuff that people find to be troubling and this guy has the same Rights to use the NDAA as you did and he's the new guy and he's kind of crazy Yeah

And that this is the level of restraint that needs to be shown by someone in that position because and he hasn't done anything yet I mean I can't say he has used it, but he's only been an officer a couple months. Yeah, give him time but to me it's like it goes back to the argument of He hasn't done anything yet. I mean, you can't say he has used it, but he's only been an officer a couple of months. Yeah, give him time. But to me, it goes back to the argument of executive orders. It goes back to the argument of all these things where or the filibuster in the Senate where what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You can't set up these rules that are just going to backfire on you and then complain about them later. To me, I think it's a huge mistake. That's why I have a lot of respect for presidents. We haven't had one in a long time that are more

restrained the presidents that that defer executive power and actually say like maybe the legislature should be dealing with these kinds of things we need a man like that or something like that who's ever done that oh I mean back in the I mean it's been a long time the Gilded Age you have Coolidge and Harding and those guys but ever since FDR really the imperial presidency grew in power and all these kinds of things and before you knew it you had a little canaries in the coal mine with like I was actually talking to Dave about it last night with Eisenhower with the military industrial complex and all these kind of amazing wasn't it? Yeah like an amazing

I really I don't think people realize how insane that is that that that man said that well explain what he said and when he said it so Eisenhower was president from 52 to 60 so technically 53 to 61 and he was obviously one of the instrumental generals in the Allied assaults on Japan and on Nazi Germany. And he saw the influence of the military growing. And that in the Cold War, in the nascent era of the Cold War, that we were making bombs to make bombs. That we were trying to have conflicts with Korea, which he did end in the early 50s.

And seeing these seeds sown of a perpetual war, of a perpetual war that the economy was actually benefiting from. Jamie, pull up that speech because it's an amazing speech. It would be nice for people to hear it. A lot of people are not aware of the tone and the way he said it. And it was when he was leaving office. Sorry if I'm not doing a good job. No, it's okay.

No, no, no, you, you did a great job. Okay. And so, and so he's a man of a military background.

Everyone loved Eisenhower, like because of what he did in the war. And he had two term president. Nixon was his vice president, very popular. But at the end he was like, you gotta watch what's going on over here. I'm,

I'm telling you, yes, you can trust me. I'm from that world and watch what's happening on over here. I'm telling you. Yes. You can trust me. I'm from that world and watch what's happening. It's a great speech. Play it, Jamie. It's a cool speech. Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States.

Good evening, my fellow Americans. We now stand 10 years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience.

The total influence, economic, political, even spiritual, is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development, yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes we should take nothing for granted only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together jesus it's an amazing at the time that was an amazing speech and it's just prescient you know like it's because people have to understand and you know like before world war ii you know we weren't a built up and militarized society we would militarize when we needed to and it was really Teddy Roosevelt and all those kinds of guys that started to kind of like getting a little more you know bullish in that kind of regard with the Spanish

American War and and the USS Maine and and then you know but the fight over World War One was real you know we didn't want to get involved we got involved very late and people take for granted now that we have just massive military we have this massive power but but in the 19th century that not that they're you know you can't equate them necessarily to the 21st century, we weren't going around running roughshod over people and doing those kinds of things. We were very isolationist.

That was kind of the American tradition. And to hear that come out of Eisenhower's mouth, especially knowing his experiences in the war and his deep knowledge of the military and what was going on in the world, it's one of the great warnings of all time in American history. It really is. And it's very wise on his part because he recognized that there's survival systems that are a part of any industry. I mean, there's survival mechanisms and the industry wants to stay alive. If all of a sudden there was peace on earth, this gigantic industry,

this multiple billion dollar a year industry, I mean, I don't know how much. It's trillions a year, right? What's the military budget per year? It's $600 billion a year. $600 billion of new spending. So you have trillions of dollars worth of equipment. Jesus Christ. So that massive amount of money, there's so many people that are involved in that and so many jobs that have to be preserved. And so much of the industry relies on keeping conflict active. And I think that's what he was trying to warn us

about. But it's so interesting about it. It involves citizenry and that people need to be aware of it. And to hear that from the president, you're never going to hear anything remotely, as even close to as candid as that is today. No, absolutely not. And I think that even hearing that from, you know, just to reiterate, like hearing that from a Barack Obama, for instance, would be strong, right? But hearing that from a Ulysses S. Grant or a Zachary Taylor or a guy that served,

especially at the level he served, is like that meant something to people. And I think that that's why that saying never went away, but under our noses it happened. And what he said was going to happen is exactly what happened in Southeast Asia, in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. He called it from a fucking mile away. Well, it wasn't even a mile away because he was living there. I mean, he was in the heat of it.

In 1960, when he made that speech, you think about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I mean, that's just a few years later. Just a few years later, they had a false flag that allowed people to get enthusiastic about entering into the Vietnam War. And that's where it all came from. Right. And it's the same, you know, some people say the USS Maine in Spanish American War in 1898 was another false flag or something that was, they let happen or something that was blown out of proportion, you know, pardon the pun, because it was about the ship blowing up. But yeah, it's one of those, it is a provocation that gets everyone involved. And we had this nemesis.

It was good versus evil. We were upset. We saw, I think, especially against the Nazis, we saw the stature of the good versus evil argument, and we won with the Allies. So I think we tried to perpetuate that. Immediately, the Soviets became the evil. And then we created our bombs,

and then they created their bombs. And then we just had these proxy wars that we were fighting against the Chinese in Korea and the Soviets Soviets in Vietnam really like all these things that were kind of You know Everyone knew what was going on, but no I'm sorry. No, please go I was just gonna say so I think that When the Soviet when everything started to get peaceful I what do they call it glass Nost? And so be in the Soviet which is like the idea of like a new era like peace and prosperity with the West or whatever

in like the late 70s early 80s I think that the the the Boeings of the world and the and the Halliburton's of the world were like oh shit, you know and and Come 90s pretty people we immediately found new targets and we should be wary of why that happened You know, I'm not saying that we shouldn't necessarily fight We have to fight sometimes. But to have this industrialized nature of it, to have this need to lurch from one war to the next war to the next war to the next war is not what a thriving republic does. It's what a dying empire does. Well, it's definitely what an empire that's dependent upon the control or rather an industry rather that's dependent upon the control that it has currently maintaining it you need to maintain that that money you need to maintain those the the business the business of making these machines and of having these contracts i mean it's a huge industry and

like all of these unlimited growth industries it's very like every business essentially operates under this paradigm of unlimited growth or most businesses do most corporations do where they kind of every year they want to make more money and if that's Applicable to a company that makes tanks. Well every year they want to make more money. They want to make more tanks We don't need tanks anymore. Well, oh the fuck you don't you definitely need to look what's going on over here in Yemen Oh shit, you need some tanks, right exactly and that's means Team America World police it's it's really crazy. It's scary, and it's a scary waste of money, too

Like I don't think that we I really do feel like we should have the most powerful military in the world I don't think that there's anything wrong with that I think you're right I think a powerful republic can have those kinds of things, but we don't need all these bases that are legacy bases Why are we still in Japan? Why are we still in you know place they talk some shit or Godzilla shows up Trump's proposed hike to military spending is bigger than all but two countries entire budgets Well, that's because we're America and we're better than everybody else. Yeah, I want to say that communist shit off my screen I want to say I mean this is incredible Joe

I want to say I think this is right that if you split the military spending of the world in thirds We've we are responsible for a third of it split the military spending of the world in thirds. We are responsible for a third of it. 10 countries are responsible for another third of it. And then everyone else is responsible for another third of it. We have four and a half percent of the world's population. So this is way out of whack with even our needs, like our actual very need to protect ourselves. I think it's just way out of whack. Right. But when you get past those 10 countries that their other third and then us that's 11 countries everybody else is using coconuts and catapults yes essentially throwing rocks at each other so but there's relative tranquility like outside of the middle

east and and and in east eastern europe with the with ukraine and there's general peace to be had in in these countries that might not spend a lot of money or might not even have a lot of money to spend. I'm not saying I want to live like they do. I don't want to say I want to live like they do in Sri Lanka or Bangladesh or something like that. What are you trying to say, man? What are you, racist? Well, that's already been established by the International Business Times, Joe. But to me, I just look at it, I'm like, we can spend this money

wiser and we can ramp up and have plans to ramp up. People forget, and you know, GM, Ford, all these guys were making our armaments. You know, Mitsubishi made the Japanese zeros. IBM, offshoots of IBM were making frigging punch card machines for the Nazis. You know, like people, people, you know, for better or for worse, ramp up and do what they need to do in times of war to make money.

And so we could have a plan in place to say like, hey, if we need to ramp up, if something bad happens, if we need to go overseas or something, if we have to ramp up if something bad happens if we need to go overseas or something If we have to go engage the Russians because they're rolling into the rest of Ukraine for instance We have the pot at the we can we can take care of that without having Bases all over the world well the problem with that kind of thinking is as soon as you say that then they realize well There's a lot of money to be had if that is the case So let's make that the case and then there's some weird fucking covert sneaky shit going down. Do you have an earring on both ears? Yeah.

Are the headphones irritating you? Oh, no, no. I just like to hear whenever I do this. No, no. The earrings have been in since I was like 18. I just never took them out. I'm superstitious. You're superstitious?

Yeah. So I don't like to, you know, not like overtly superstitious, but I'm afraid to take them out. I'm afraid to do different things. Do you have a We The People tattoo on your arm? Yeah, We I don't like to you know not like over overtly superstitious, but I'm afraid to take them out I'm afraid to do different things you have a we the people tattoo in your arm Yeah, we the people and then I have Franklin's Association snake yeah, so you're like join or die Wow so you're like a serious almost like a fan of Politics yeah, yeah Sure I mean when I went to college I went to school for American history and I graduated and when I got my job offer in the video game industry

I was about to start my graduate degree At Northeastern in American history because I wanted to be a professor at the time so my real passion was American history and American politics, but I veered off into a different direction No, please go I was just say so these are like relics, so I got these when I was like 20 You know that's interesting man. That's those are unusual tattoos for a 20 year old. Yeah, I Just you when I was like 20, you know? Wow, that's interesting, man. Those are unusual tattoos for a 20-year-old. Yeah, I just, you know, I love, I'm really interested in the founding generation. I'm really interested in their experiences

and the American Revolution, I think, is a fascinating revolution compared to a lot of other revolutions, primarily because it is, I think, an inherently, in some ways, conservative revolution, which is not common. These were incredibly rich people fighting. These weren't like poor

Destitute people John Hancock had something like one 350th of all of the value of the colonies under his under his name these people had everything the risk and everything to lose So it's like an interesting I think very principled revolution that they fought although if you read like Howard Zinn or something They would say that they did it to protect their money I'm sure they did but I'm sure they had had other motives as well. Of course. And it's sort of an unprecedented thing in human history. I mean, it's a really crazy union that we've established over here. And to see all these things that threaten what we find so amazing about it,

like the violations of the Fourth Amendment, all the NSA stuff with Edward Snowden, all these different things that we see that are that are huge problems What they are is also there they're weakening the foundation of these ideas that were so amazing when they were first established in 1776 yeah, and and to me That's why I think that they're worth protecting and it goes it goes into the like is the Constitution living or not is it is A strict constructionist or a loose constructionist all those kinds of questions. I think are valid, but to me I'm like we can't we have this very unique Vision into what the founders intended because they were one of the few I think people people at that time that were like we're gonna

You know the federalist papers are incredible if you read them like you don't have to wonder what they meant, right? They literally tell you exactly what they meant So when you go to Supreme Court cases I don't know that there are many Supreme Court cases that don't even reference the federalist papers because it's like, well, they said this at Article 3, Section 2, but actually in this paper that they wrote anonymously that we know Alexander Hamilton wrote, here's what he said about it. And I think that's interesting stuff. Now, how did this knowledge of politics and how did this fascination that you have with

the history of the United States, how did this get you in, you know, quote-unquote trouble in the video game industry with these people that are predominantly left-wing and predominantly progressive? I say progressive, but progressive is kind of a dirty word now. It is. There's a difference between liberal and progressive. Well, it would be great if everybody was liberal. It would be great if everybody was progressive. It would be great if everybody wanted people. It would be great if everybody was progressive. It would be great if everybody wanted people to have freedom of choice and freedom to be whoever you want.

But that's not really what those things are anymore. Those things are like ideologies. They're these predetermined patterns of behavior that people subscribe to in a very, very rigid way. How what did you find was an issue when people found out about your extreme understanding and respect for the history of the United States? Well, they think it's primarily they think it was like kind of a joke because not not not a ha ha joke, but like you're you're a clown kind of because why? Because I believe in a small government, for instance, I believe in low taxation. I believe in the elimination of the income tax and things like this. These are these are rad. But I don't actually have like in low taxation. I believe in the elimination of the income tax and things like this. These are rad. But I don't actually have like not all my ideas are radical or even outside of the mainstream.

Socially, I'm probably further to the left than many of these people. You know, I think that it goes back to this idea. And this is something Dave Rubin has touched on a lot in his show, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which is this idea that it's really all or nothing. Like they don't want to be an ally with someone that might be able to help them in X, Y, and Z if they disagree with people in A, B, and C. So they could have had a great ally in me and be like, I've been pro-gay marriage forever. I've been pro-choice. You know, I'm for the decriminalization of drugs. I'm for the legalization of prostitution.

I'm for a lot of these things that are very far to the left socially that we probably could find some agreement on somewhere. And we can work on those things and get those things done together. But because I say also like hey The income tax is predatory and really hurts people. I own a biz I owned a business and I guess I own another one now And I know like that I could have hired another person if taxes weren't so onerous on me Um, and so I also stand on there and they they they're like this never happened This stuff that you just said never happened this left this left-wing stuff that we agree on never happened because you don't believe in

Because you have this one thing that we have a problem with now Okay, but you're not being clear about that like what what is the issue? When it comes to small government like you wanting small government, what's the opposition to that? What are they saying? Well, they say like they make a lot of its insinuations because a lot of it isn't even things that I feel or believe So an example would be you know I see a lot of people say all the time like like Colin doesn't believe in welfare or Colin doesn't believe in social security. And I'm like, I never said that, actually. I just I believe that these things should be reformed and maybe taken back a step. But they even look at that as a push too

far on the system. I guess what I'm trying to say to you, and I'm sorry I'm not being more elusive with you. I'm trying my hardest is is that they you have to agree with them lockstep Right if they see you in one way that is that is is injurious to their cause or to that is Conflicting or contrary to what they believe they do not give a fuck about anything else you believe and that's the thing that always frustrated Me what so surprised me with people really were running me out on a rail out of the gaming industry with the with a Completely innocuous joke which I think tells you everything you need to know about the the intent that They don't see they don't want allies in different ways that allies in different clothes allies right they want just they just want Complete you know it's very Orwellian. They just want you to be completely like them, and if you're not like them

They don't want anything to do with you, and it's these it's not even like I was advocating for anything crazy I don't advocate for anything crazy, I don't think. That doesn't sound crazy at all. But what's interesting is we've kind of turned a corner where in many ways the right is more tolerant than the left to variations in their ideology. Whereas the right is much more tolerant to people that support gay marriage. The right is much more tolerant to people that, I mean, you fill in the blanks. There's a bunch of different rights that the right would sort of accept from someone who also voted Republican, but the left isn't. If you got to the point where, I got in a heated argument with someone once about abortion,

which I'm pro-choice, But I was saying, well, essentially, it was a criticism of Richard Dawkins' quote where he's comparing a human embryo to a pig fetus or a pig embryo. I forget the terms he used, but I'm like, well, that's ridiculous because one of them is going to become a person if you don't take it out of your body. And that was the idea behind it. Like, you can't use that sort of an analogy because it's not true

I mean, it's just one has the potential for being a person I was being accused by this guy of being right-wing because of it and I was like well I'm not right-wing. I'm just talking about the potential for life like a pig embryo is never going to be my Neighbor Mike, you know, it's just not you know, I mean, but but that baby I'm not saying you should be forced to make that baby a person and keep it in your body when it's a few cells and then two weeks old. I'm not saying that you can't choose when to terminate your pregnancy. What I'm saying is you're terminating a pregnancy. We both know what you're doing.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to do it, but to pretend that it's not messy. And nobody wants it to be messy. Nobody wants it to be a complicated issue. They want it to be cut and dry, if you're on the left in particular. It's pro-choice, a woman's reproductive choice, the freedom of your body to do what you want. I get all that. I'm 100% with you. But let's not lie about what it is.

what it is because as soon as we distort the reality of what the thing is, then we put up these ideological boundaries and blinders and we make communication very difficult and we make these rigid ideologies almost like a religion. They're almost like dogma. And when you do that, you have real problems because people can't communicate. So if someone does bring that up and say, well, you know, what is abortion? And then silence across the dinner table, you hear people dropping their forks and like, what is abortion? What are you doing? At what age is it okay to have an abortion? At what age is it not okay? Is it okay to abort a baby a day before it's born? No. Okay. How about a month before?

No. How about two months before? No. How about three? How about four? How about five? How about six? How about seven? Where do we, you know what I'm saying? Where do we get to the point where it's not a baby? And I think that's a viable conversation and it's a real, and it's a very uncomfortable discussion. listening to this right now that are in their car. Maybe there's a woman listening to this that's had an abortion. She's like, I don't want to hear this. And she wants to shut it off. Maybe there's a guy who's trying to pressure his wife or girlfriend into having an abortion and he doesn't want to hear it. But what is it? What is abortion?

What is it? Right. It's, it's, it's, and this is what I always call this, this issue to me particularly, Joe, is a 60, 40 issue. What I always say is like, I am pro-choice, but I respect the pro-life argument. And I don't think you should just have unfettered access to abortions forever you know like like you know yeah two months you know something like that 14 weeks i don't know i don't know what the number

is but in 14 weeks too much probably but to me i'm like yeah what's happening you have you make a great point because it's it's it's it is this dogmatic sense of saying like it here's the way it is that's it it goes back to know, I heard you talking about it. I was so glad to hear you say it because it goes back to like the war on women, right? Like there's just a whole group of people apparently in the country, 150 million of them, that hate women. That because they're pro-life, for instance, which is a stance I don't share, but I respect. Why does that mean that they hate women? Why does it mean that, like, why does it always go from zero to ten? You know for like immediately. It's like and then and then there's all these lies mixed in like the

The the the pay gap which is a fucking lie It's not just a lot it's a lot is perpetrated by Obama on TV talking about it. I mean It's such a confusing lie. It's just bizarre. It is demonstrably false. And it is a lie. So why do I hear people, why does everyone want to be so divisive? Why do you want to add more fuel to the fire when you can be like, hey, maybe we have problem X, Y, and Z, but this isn't a problem, actually. I saw it again recently.

It was recently in the news. Somebody brought it up. And they're unchecked and unchallenged. Just explain to people if they were, because I've done it too many times. Explain to people what the real pay gap is and what the issue is when why it's used incorrectly So the pay gap claimed by studies, I guess the Department of Labor something is 21 cents or something like that So saying I think something like 79 every dollar a man makes a woman makes 79 cents That's true only if you take every man every woman take all the money they make and divide it by the amount of men in the

Amount of women. It doesn't take into account careers. It doesn't take into account personal choices. Women, for instance, leave the workforce to have families. Sometimes men are gravitating towards engineering or physics or things that pay them a lot of money, while women tend maybe towards psychology or something like that. I think the argument is something like nine out of the 10 top grossing career choices are men dominated. And nine out of the 10 lowest money-making career choices

are actually dominated by women. I think the only exception there is clergy, which is dominated by men. And so, but it doesn't adjust for any of these things. So when you actually adjust for choices, when you adjust for careers and longevity and hours and all of these things that are relevant, the pay gap closes to something like less than five cents.

And then there's even arguments saying that those could probably be explained away completely as well, depending on, I know Christina Summers and some of these people that know way more about this than I do have videos about. If you actually dive in, you probably can get rid of the entire number completely. But it's preposterous to say that the woman makes 79 cents for every dollar. And it's just repeated ad nauseum. To say that the women makes 79 cents for every dollar and it's just repeated ad nauseum The real issue is there it's implying that two people working alongside each other at the Apple store

The man is making five dollars an hour. The woman is making 79 cents an hour less Yeah, it's 79 cents per dollar less right Significant and I like the argument because it's true. You know, if that was true, why wouldn't a corporation just hire women? 79 cents. I should say it right. 79 cents to every dollar the man makes. Right. It's just, yeah, corporations would hire women if they were just as competent and just as skilled.

And it's not that. It's also men are more likely to die on the job. Men are more likely to pick way more dangerous careers like forest firefighting forest firefighting, whether it's a coal mining, all those things are dominated by men and a lot of people die in them. Law enforcement, of course, there's a, there's a bunch of issues with it, but the problem is it's, it's spewed out as an indication that we are an inherently sexist society and whether or not you can find sexism in our society, I'm sure you can. There's absolutely exists just as racism exists. I don't think it is nearly as much of a problem

as they're trying to pin it out to be. And I think there's a lot of other factors involved in why men make more money. And one of them may be the demand for a higher salary when they're being hired, better skills at negotiation or more confidence in those sort of confrontations with employers or negotiations with employers. I mean, there's a lot of factors, but it doesn't do anybody any good to repeat a false statistic when it's provably false. And then when people find out that it's false and they lose confidence in the information they're being given. It's also, I think it's, that's one half of it. The other half of it is like, what does it say about a person that just continues to? Say it anyway, right like at some point truth doesn't matter anymore right like I want to have a I want to have factual Debates I want to have like this is the starting point these are objective truths

And then let's debate about those things right but if that's your starting point if that's like a third of the entire reason why you're angry And in the streets in Washington DC well, then I don't even know what you're angry about anymore to be honest It's the same. It goes back to like Occupy Wall Street or all these things where I'm like, I don't know exactly what you're angry about. And this is why this this protest isn't working and isn't resonating with people. I saw people in the March for Women, the Women's March thing with signs talking about the gender pay gap. And so they had the time to make a sign. They had the time to take that sign and nail it to some boards and carry it around but they didn't have time to Google whether or

not that was true exactly that's fascinating it's that it's also fat and I feel like some of them have to know right no no man it's like I've read this thing once that said that sperm cures depression in women, and I didn't even look any further. I'm like, I got all the information I needed out of this. I don't want it just debunked. I want to be rock solid in my approach. Shut the laptop and walked out of the room.

I mean, that's really what's going on. It's like, that sounds great. If women make 79 cents to every dollar a man makes, it sounds awesome. This is a bullshit society. The patriarchy. The patriarchy.archy the patriarchy the evil patriarchy meanwhile you ask them you know you you ask a uh one of these feminists there's no reason with feminism if the goal is for total equality but we all know that that's not really what feminism means today that you know if you sit there and be like can you name just one thing that i can do that you can't just one like like one like and i'm not saying like you give birth I can or

something like something biological I'm saying like what can't you do like like if you really wanted to I'm not saying that you know like I know for instance that you know the examples that people give and I haven't seen the statistics but I've heard it circulated that even that you know companies are so desperate now to hire women because of this, this situation, this optical situation that they're in, where it seems like women are being pushed down, that women in their twenties and thirties are actually making more now, you know, that they're, and certainly they're more likely to get a higher education. Certainly they're more likely to be, you know, even graduate high school. So there

are actually systemic benefits to being a woman and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that either. But I just feel like it goes, goes back to that thing of like why are we fighting like what is the divisive nature can't we and this goes back to your question about the video game industry i'm like hey instead of yelling at me about this we won't agree about this these situations over here but can't we advocate for these together or do you not want to be you want to you don't want my advocacy for gay marriage because i believe in small government you don't my advocacy for you know transgender rights because I'm for low taxes I'm like okay that's weird because we can totally be friends here with the Women's March I know that there were problems with pro-life organizations getting involved at a

sponsorship level even and it's like they're not women right they're they're lesser than there's a debate about that one issue Yeah, strange you said something that I want to go back to like what do you think feminism is about? Well, it's this argument about about equality. I mean to me a feminism was about equality And I think that this this this you know, I'm reading more about it and learning more about it So I'm still very ignorant about it But this more third wave what they call third wave feminism which I'm sure is a term you've heard that seems to be more about a combative nature to

Actually, you know instead of like saying like men and women are equal men and women should deserve the same rights and the same treatment and All those kinds of things it actually seems to be very Anti-man in a way like it seems to be very like it almost like the tables have turned you know and I'm like But why are you turning the tables like didn't you achieve what you wanted in the first place, which was just that we were going to be here together at the nexus of everything as two genders? Part of the problem is that reinforcing that fake statistic, the gender pay gap, that so many people have heard that.

Sarah Silverman was just talking about it recently and some big thing that she did. I'm like, that's not true, but yet people just say it. And no one stops them from saying it. A friend of mine that was a very educated guy said it. We were having a debate about divorce and he brought it up. And I was like, that's not even true. And unfortunately, we're in a place with no cell phone reception.

So I had to wait until we got back to send it to him. I'm like, this is not true. Like what you're saying is not true. Like you're repeating it as if you know, but meanwhile, you've done zero research on it. It's a talking point that just gets reiterated over and over again without any research. And it's convenient. It's convenient to reinforce your argument. It's a number. It's a number that deals with a very complex and nuanced debate. And I think that the idea of feminism is, to me, in a lot of ways, very similar to the idea of the men's rights movement. I'm not opposed to rights for anybody. I'm not opposed to anyone. I'm very egalitarian in my ideas about the world. But I am opposed to anybody that likes one

gender over the other, because I think that's foolish. Just like I'm opposed to people that only like white people. I'm opposed to people that only's foolish just like I'm opposed to people that only like white people I'm opposed to people that only like black people I'm opposed to people that generalize based on an enormous mass of human beings like men are shit women rule girls rule boys drool you know I don't like it the other way either I don't like it the he-man women haters Club I don't like I don't like any ideologies that lump people into these huge groups because I think it's moron think. I think it's a stupid way of looking at the world. Yeah, I agree.

And I'm the same way. The egalitarian nature is the best. The live and let live nature to judge people based on their character and the quality of their intelligence or whatever it is you're looking for in them shouldn't be categorized in these specific ways by sex or gender by Race or religion by any of those kinds of things. I'm totally with you there I think we both agree that women shouldn't be allowed to vote right. I mean yeah I mean that was a women have suffered long enough enough already girls I used to I used to think that joke was so funny you I mean you get murdered for that joke today But like the women like instead you know suffrage, you know suffragettes like women have suffered long enough instead of suffering

Whatever I was like, it's a funny joke I'd probably you know that would have ruined my career, too, on Twitter. But it didn't ruin your career. It just gave you a platform, honestly. It all balances out. As long as you're being attacked for something that's not valid, it all balances out. You take a little heat, and then you realize, like, okay, I'm through that. Yeah, it was scary for a little while.

Was it scary? You know, I don't know if scary is the right word. It was uncomfortable and unsettling, and you really saw where everyone stood right so One of the things I was talking with people about was you know how sad it was for me that no like very few people That I knew came to my defense, and I wasn't saying they had to come to my defense and be like Colin you know that joke was fine like if you didn't like the joke. That's I don't care It's fine jokes fall flat all the time. You know that you joke was fine. Like, if you didn't like the joke, I don't care. It's fine. Jokes fall flat all the time.

You know that. You're a comedian. It's hard. I don't do it professionally. I mean, it's impossibly hard to get on a stage and do that kind of stuff. But to me, I was like, hey, is anyone going to say that I'm not a sexist? Is anyone going to stand up that's known me for 10 years and say like, hey, we don't agree with the joke, but the way you're categorizing this guy who I know is not accurate. And I heard that there were some fights behind the scenes with

people and I got a lot of DMS and messages but very little in terms of public support that really hurt me yeah like that really really hurt me like it and wounded me in a deep way and ruined friendships like that I had for years like they're probably fake friendships man and you know and people probably felt the the need to toe the line you you know, toe this, I don't want to say party line, but the ideological line. I mean, the dogmatic line. If you run into someone who is in any way involved in any sort of a dispute that makes that person appear to be a sexist, you're supposed to pile on. Yeah, and that's exactly what they did and the thing that hurt me the most is that I didn't expect I'm not

Close with a lot of these people but people that know me You know there are people in this industry that are writing that are that were piling on me or remaining silent That got freelance work because of me that got maybe even got hired because I was on a hiring committee that put you know pushed for them all these kinds of things and I people I used to take out to lunch when I was senior editor to see how they were doing if there's anything I can do for them so like that and everyone's just like No, not gonna say I'm not gonna come back and help help him out now, and I tried to put that good energy out there I'm not always full of good energy sometimes

I say negative things are bad things sometimes I make mistakes But when it come when a person comes after your character and you damn well know That there are a bunch of people around you that know who you are whether or not they agree with what you said or agree With what you do, but they know you're who you are and they know the severity of what people are saying and they don't say anything. That really wounds a person and that really fucking hurt. is that what you're doing in many ways is making a very complicated and nuanced perspective from a person in your stance. You're taking this path outside of the ideology. And by doing so, you sort of challenge a lot of the ways these people have been behaving for a long time.

And as soon as you do that, they have to kind of reconsider these ideological boundaries that they've set up in their own behavior and thinking and communication, and that they don't want to do that, and they don't want to do that. They like to keep things rigid and simple, and they also want to continue to progress in their career, and in order to do that, you have to kind of like have this predetermined pattern that you follow i think simple is the key word that you use simple because yes they can't there are people out there that cannot comprehend how a person who believes in small government for instance will use the same argument that says the government can't touch my

guns that's consistent with saying the government can't tell a woman what to do with her body right that's consistent with the principle that says a government shouldn't even be involved in telling you who you can marry and a man should be able to marry a man and a woman should be able to marry a woman and i would go as far as to say that even a polygamist totally on the on the up and up everyone's in on a relationship should not be the government's not governs right they can't they cannot acknowledge that it's the lack of governmental power that gives you that right in my perspective When they feel like it's the wielding of government power that ensures those those rights That's not that's not congruent with them

They don't understand how that how we they don't understand how We came to the same exact conclusion by going just totally two different directions And that's really that challenges them and they don't have the philosophical boundary bounding to figure out how that might be no Well, that's the argument that the philosophy has to be bound in writing it has to be bound in some sort of a doctrine it has to be written down on paper and established and enforced by a government that's that's like a big daddy thing you know i mean instead of saying give the power to the people let people do whatever they would like to do as long as they're not infringing upon the rights of others and let's have less and less people dictating what people get to do right and that's that to me is liberty yeah right yeah and

they and they look at it i don't want to say they but a lot of people a lot of progressives or regressives depending on you want to look at them will look at and be like well the government has to ensure these things because these are not natural these are not natural rights or these are not you know things that can be ensured and i'm like but in the natural society in a natural sense we we have to have consistent rights i i can't in good faith say like i have the right to wield a gun because the government can't tell me that even though it's enshrined in the bill of rights but then say like oh the government can get involved in your bedroom though oh the government can tap your phones oh the government i'm like no it's either all or nothing and if you and if that's not if that's

a philosophy that's too hard for people to wrap their minds around, then I don't know what to say about that. But to me, it's pretty clear and pretty lucid the way I feel my principles are rooted in that philosophy. Also, I think when people, they're seeking this sort of comfort level in life and in their positions. And I don't necessarily think people understand that as soon as you allow the government too much power, you will never get that back. As soon as they have power, as soon as they can take away some of your liberties, those will never get returned. One of the rare ones is marijuana. I was trying to explain to someone the other day about this. It's incredibly rare that something becomes legal that was illegal as long as marijuana. It's very rare. Something has to be just completely undeniably good for it to have gone through all the propaganda, all the bullshit,

all the lies, all the governmental regulations, all the people being locked up in jail for life and then still come out on the other side in 2017 and be legal in a bunch of states, recreationally, not even just medically. It's great to see but it's fascinating Because it's one of the rare instances where a Liberty lost is regained and most of the time It's not no it's not it's an aberration and that's what people have to be really scared of and that's that goes to the point It's like I don't want to give anything an inch because I am afraid of the consequences of giving anyone an inch That's why I wouldn't apologize for the joke That's why I resigned from my company instead of apologizing for the joke. How could you apologize for that?

Oh, it's so stupid. First of all, it's a honeymooners Married with children all in the family level joke something you'd see on the floor of a CBS writers room Yeah, and and but but the point is that I could have probably apologizing for all the But I'm like no no, because A, I'm not sorry. So that would be a huge lie. B, like I have to now really recalibrate the way I go about my business with, you know, with my partners and with the audience because, you know, I didn't have the protections

that I thought I would have when the mistake was made. You know what I mean? Like I didn't, and that was what hurt me. So I tried to do what I thought was the most principled and character driven choice, which would be like, this is best for my partners who don't agree with me. This is best for the audience who might not agree with me. It seems like a lot of them do.

And this is the best for just everyone moving forward. I'll have other opportunities and other things that I can do. Has there been any blowback targeted towards the people that were upset at you? Yes. And the thing that, you know, it's sad to see because it's not mine I feel like I'm a pretty good natured person and I don't like seeing the rubber band effect going on where people now are suffering because they stood up and stood out or whatever it's just that and I don't care about the people that were out to character assassinate me I'm talking about like you know my my ex

business partners and stuff it's just that like no matter what I say will be twisted I tried to be very magnanimous and like very kind about it when I was on Rubin the second time and People twisted everything to just be a problem anyway So I'm like I'll just remain silent because I'd rather than misconstrue the silence than misconstrue the words you know It's it's a time isn't that a problem though though if you if you're not communicating freely and because you're worried about the repercussions I'm not worried about the repercussions for me I'm worried about foisting repercussions on other people that have no control over what I'm saying anyway Yeah, but even even that it's like it's not your responsibility as long as you're communicating in an honest way Sure, do you it's something you're thinking that's that's sort of the same reason why people didn't come to your support in the first place

Because they were worried that if they spoke their mind they would be targeted if they said hey You know I know that this is going on. I think Collins a great guy I don't think he's sexist. And my feeling on him is that it was just a joke. And then they could get targeted, and they chose not to. They chose not to step up. In a lot of ways, you not speaking your mind in a clear way sort of sets that same sort of tone. I think you should be able to speak freely.

And I think you should be held responsible for when you say something and it's irresponsible, or it's wrong, or it's wrong, or it's hurtful in some ways. And people make mistakes like that all the time. And there's also, we have to take into account that a lot of times people don't realize the consequences of their words, or they say things in a flippant manner, or they're tired, or they're stressed, or things come out that they don't necessarily believe in that way, but especially when it comes to something like Twitter or some short form, short paragraph sort of a thing, I think it's really important that we be given the opportunity to express ourselves fully and then the disagreements with that be categorized in an honest way. And what I had the most problem with was not just someone calling you racist, but that

everyone was making it out to be this horrible, sexist, evil thing when it's clearly something said in jest. And as soon as you can, and that's my wheelhouse, as soon as you start taking humor and something that people say that's absolutely meant to be just funny and make it as like, oh, this guy just signed an affidavit that women should shut the fuck up because it's better. I mean, that's really the worst case scenario interpretation of what you said. Yeah. And yeah, I think that that was a disappointing part of it was, again, it goes back to this point of like it ignored everything like my body of work.

I actually stood up very loudly for political and social causes many times. There are huge videos I have of my feelings on the Confederate flag or how I feel like black people... What do you think about the Confederate flag? I think that you have the right to fly it. I just think it's in terrible taste, and I understand why people are upset about it. And I don't think the flag of a traitorous country

should be instituted in state flags in the United States. That, I think, is absolutely valid. Do you think that it's legal? Is it legal to have a Nazi flag? Is it legal to have a swastika? Yeah, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be. I mean, it's legal to have the Confederate flag. Yeah, but you just can't have it on the Dukes of Hazzard. Well, like to me, it's like I'm not talking about the legality of it. Because if you want to fly a swastika out your house, you're allowed to. I think you should probably be allowed to do that.

I don't think you're an absolute idiot for doing that, but that's your right to be an idiot. Right. The Confederate flag thing was just a sign for me because it was it was this it Was this this this juxtaposition of saying look well? We're talking about the legal rights, but actually I'm talking about the taste right you know like to say like people Don't remember what the CSA was I don't think a lot of people even fly that flag and know what the hell they're flying Yeah, this country seceded from the United States they were traitors and or their Leonard Skinner fans or their huge Leonard Skinner fans they're huge

big in Mississippi like you know but to me I'm like we have to have let's let's put this in historicity let's think about what we're doing here this country left to protect its slaves its right to own slaves any other interpretation of it is wrong based on on what was going on in the 1850s and leading up to 1860 These states rights advocates all that that's not what it was about economics. Yeah, it's not what it was about It wasn't about states rights. It wasn't about any of those things it was about your bill your economy would have fallen apart without free labor and these people left they caused a gratuitously bloody war and

Then they were let me know both Abraham Lincoln and then Andrew Johnson just let them back in You know Jefferson Davis who was the president of the Confederacy? wasn't murdered he wasn't executed, you know, like they were all let back in and For some reason because reconstruction went the way it did into the into the Ulysses S Grant kind of era of presidency people people look at it and be like, well, things kind of ended good and they're kind of like brothers again. And I'm like, that's not really the way it was

when Jim Crow came up and stuff like that. This fucking flag means something nefarious. And you can't, so it's your right to fly it. And if you feel like that's a Southern pride thing, more power to you. I love the South. I think the South's awesome. I think the South needs another flag.

But yeah, you need to know what this flag means to people. You guys left. You guys killed hundreds of thousands of people doing it and and You just fly this flag is like the South will rise again No, it won't don't you think that that's a bad expression the South will rise again is a terrible expression But I think that a lot of people look at that flag and it represents what we're calling southern pride Which is nothing wrong. Nothing wrong with being proud of being from Georgia or wherever the fuck you're from.

Great states down there. Yeah. But I think the issue is what it means to other people, you know, and whether or not that's valid. I mean, you're not talking about like touchy feely, like people being oversensitive. No, you're talking about a horrible war about slavery. It's like probably one of the worst kinds of wars, like a war, because we would like to keep people imprisoned and working for free. So we're willing to kill other people over it to fight for that right. This is essentially what it was. So it's to the

people of today, it doesn't seem like that because they're not living in 1850. They're not in the days when, you know, they would have these massive like like Gettysburg Well you did have these massive areas where people would be slaughtered I mean there's people to this day that still find like Civil War shit Or they have these massive battles, and they can dig through the ground with metal detectors, and they find Bullets and guns and badges and it's awesome. It's great I mean I took the idea from Saving Private Ryan the guy that would take dirt from all the battlefields that they go to and put it and put it in jars

I He didn't put it they only showed it once in the movie But I used to go to all these battlefields when I was a kid cuz I was fascinated by my parents would bring me and I would take I would go buy baby food and dump them out and then go to all the battlefields and put dirt That's heavy yeah, I like yes, you do this when you were a kid? Yeah, like in my teens and early 20s, yeah. So you've always been into this? Yeah, since I was, you know, my earliest memory is of being into politics and history was the Gulf War, which was, you know, in the lead up to it with Kuwait and stuff in 1991.

So I was like six or seven. I remember, you know, Newsday is Long Island's newspaper. I remember just seeing images and kind of maps, and i didn't really understand what was going on i couldn't even read most of the words i mean it's complicated geopolitical stuff they're talking about but ever since that point i was very politically focused and my dad is a staunch like rockefeller republican like a paleo con like a moderate republican um in the old north you know people out there might know but like republicans are a pretty disparate group like republicans in new england or republicans in new New York are very different than Republicans in Texas

But they're both Republicans and my dad grew up just in you know giving me things to read and feeding that fire and buy me maps and buy me books and we listen to talk radio and We would debate things and we would kind of come to these conclusions of different things and we disagree about a lot of things still to this day, but he's a great man and ever since then I was really really interested and I knew when i was fourth or fifth grade that i would study history and i remember in new york we have this thing called the regents in high school which are like these tests these state run tests that you have to pass to graduate so like you take your class but then you have to take your final but then you have to take a regents exam which is the state run thing say

like you know math you know whatever and i remember when I was in sixth grade my sister Ally who's six years older than me was taking the US history Regents like the next there are a few days from then and I helped her study And I and like helped I remember like she didn't know any really anything She needed to know I taught her like what what she needed to know just for this very rudimentary test And that was a stuck in my mind because I was like I have a real passion for this I really like it. I enjoy it. I don't know everything I make mistakes sometimes and I changed the way I feel sometimes but it's always been a real real fascinating so now that you've left your company the which was

What was it called kind of fun kind of funny Yeah And what was kind of funny kind of funny was the four of us that founded the company were all at IGN in different respects And we spun off to just start our own YouTube channel about games and nerd culture and stuff like that do podcasts and we found some Some good success almost crowdfunded on patreon and it was a lot of fun Then I enjoyed it, but I felt like I needed to leave because I felt like that was the best for everybody Well once that well, I mean, how could you not if they turned on you over that stupid fucking joke? Yeah I mean, it's like not that it's a stupid joke

It was it's a bad joke. It's not even that bad. No, I appreciate that means a lot coming from you I like that. I just thought it's stupid the reaction to it was so fucking stupid It was stupid and I felt like you know, I wish that you know, I wish that things went differently I wish that you know, we had a lot of fights behind the scenes. I won't get in all that I don't think I honestly I think it's good. I think it's good, too I don't I don't you know I I felt like I did what was right for them And I felt like we would have just come to this impasse again

So I was like let's just pull the band-aid off and get to get this over with are you going to do something that involves Politics now clearly you have a deep passion for this yeah, I started a new YouTube channel that the first video about April 3rd It's called Collins last stand And that's crazy. It's already funded on patreon It's called Collins last stand and crazy. It's already funded on patreon Thirty eight thousand dollars a month dying for yes. Well. It's people are waiting at expression I do yeah, because I think it's powerful like there are things worth dying for there are things worth risking there Yeah, there it is, so I reached thirty nine thousand dollars a month down and it's gonna fall thirty nine thousand a month people It's gonna fall. I'm sure it's gonna fall people shit dude people are talking

People are trying to minimize this holy shit. That's a lot of fucking money 39 grand a month yeah, you're gonna get 39,000 a month, and you haven't even started it yet Yeah, technically, but the but this is it's gonna fall back down to the teens probably so what that was fine Relax with your humility well take it down Well if you if you scroll here you'll see on the left side underneath the number my only stretch goal was to reach $10,000 So my my my expectations were blown out of the water, and I really what I read into this show is is is You know people are just sick of this bullshit This is them this is them speaking and being like we need a conduit. That's going to

Get into the history and get into the philosophy in the politics But also that will stand up and say like I'm not sorry for a joke people have the right to make mistakes people have the right to express themselves it goes back to the Confederate flag thing I might disagree with a person that flies that flag but I'm not gonna go wrap it up on their door and pull it off and call them a racist I'm just gonna shake my head and walk you know because there are other things to worry about so it's people that like want more Liberty focused individual focus kind of things and and and

That's just people speaking to me. You know so so the number will fall back down after the month I'm sure that's fine. Just stop that but drive me crazy with this fake humility. It's not It's not fake humility out actually I remember I was gonna fall don't people gonna like me less But but but but my whole thing it's really not fake humility It's me saying like I hear you and I'll do my very best to do this. Or the numbers keep going up. The problem is everybody's going to know what the numbers are, and they're going to go, I don't need to give them any money.

He's making $39,000 a month. That's fine. That's not fine. You should hide that number. Can you hide it? You can, but I feel like I want to be honest with people. Oh, my God. If you weren't Patreon, you'd freaking kill.

You've got to get that cash, son. But, yeah, you can hide it, but I want it to be totally transparent. What I keep telling people is as long as we keep a sustainable level of money, which is Oh my god, if you're on patreon you'd friggin kill gotta get that cash son But yeah, you can hide it, but I wanted to be totally transparent What I keep telling people is as long as we keep a level a sustainable level of money Which is way less than what I have now There'll be no baked in ads no product placements none of that and I want people to know I want I want people to be involved In the in it from its so Collins last and is about politics. It's gonna be yeah, so I want to do two videos a week Between 10 and 15 minutes long each that are scripted and written

So I want to do two videos a week between 10 and 15 minutes long each that are scripted and written. And I know how to edit. And so I'm not very good at it. The quality of the videos from a from an optical perspective, you'll find better quality. But I want the content to be really good. And so I want to just do two videos a week, one probably focused on history and one probably focused on politics. So one that's more rooted in in philosophy that I'll go research and write. I'm already researching and writing the first one. I don't want to ruin it for anyone yet.

But I think it's gonna be really fun. And then the second, you know, maybe the second video every week will be something about what's happening in the world. And I'll talk to a camera and just be like, this is the way I feel about this. This is maybe why I feel this way.

And just, and just some stuff out there, you know, I want to treat people's time with care. I don't have the brand you have. I don't have, you know, people that are,

that are religious about listening to everything I do. So I want people to like, look forward to saying like, Oh, twice a week, Colin might put up a 10 minute video that I can just when I'm making dinner just listen to it in the background and then go about my day and maybe learn something or maybe feel a certain way or maybe I disagree and then move on and and and and have something just be a part of people's lives in that way so clearly you put a lot of thought into this and

you've thought this through uh this is obviously something you're really planning out well yeah I'm trying I mean like that was you know I was actually the when the number kept rising. I was horrified like at first because I was like because I was like I Have that you like I hate money. No of course. I love money But I it's like the imposter syndrome where you never really know that you're earning it or whatever and I'm like I want I don't Want to let anyone down I only have right now the intro video which is just me talking to the camera kind of with what my plan is I'm trying to really keep people engaged and putting update videos on and letting them know where everything is but yeah I was horrified because I'm like you know I only have the bandwidth to do two

videos a week whether I'm making $15,000 a month or $40,000 a month and so if it's see it so I put out a video to everyone being like if it's if this level sustained or even a level that's in the 20s or 30s whatever it is I have to recalibrate what I'm thinking you know maybe I do hire someone to help me shoot Maybe I do hire when you say the bandwidth what do you mean by a band the bandwidth because I don't want people were like Oh, can we get a podcast can we do more videos a week and stuff? And I'm like that's not the vision for the product I only have enough bandwidth in my mind to write and it doesn't create time and space right it

the money gives me means in the future to maybe make the product more dynamic or interesting or hire people and do more. But right now, I just want to spend a few months to be like, this is what I'm planning. I want to write these things. I want to put care into them. I want to give you citations. I want to give you further things to read and all those kinds of things. And that takes time. Are you always like this?

Like really hyped up and energetic? Do you always have this much energy? Do you always talk this fast? I'm a fast talker.'s a new york thing but i'm a i used to live in new york you didn't know a lot of people that talked very fast they do but you're like fucking ramped up it's because it's something i'm i'm passionate about yeah you know it's uh i don't mean to come off as annoying or anything no no no you're not annoying at all it's impressive thank you i i just try to these are the things that i i forgot for so long in a way because I was writing about games, which I love I love games I think they're important. They're an important piece of escape. They're an important piece of art. I think that's all great

But being able to engage with someone like yourself with someone like Dave Rubin or someone like a Steven Crowder Whoever it might be I was on Glenn Beck's radio show last week. It brings out an energy in me that wear a bow tie I I was he oh did he wear a bow tie? I don't know I was on the phone, so I have no he could've been naked for on But it brings out an energy me where I'm like I can finally Engage with people that know what the fuck they're talking about in this particular realm Which I think is so exciting and so interesting and we can have you know we had it we debated We don't agree on everything. I think that's awesome

You know that's a really cool that you found a very big positive out of this now You can express yourself more honestly, and you can You can gravitate towards your real interests And yeah, that's what I'm trying to do I'm trying to use this as an opportunity for myself and trying to use it as an opportunity to just carve out a little Slice of the internet however big or small might be where we can affect some positive change and like an idea you know ideas and learning and free expression and free thought and Making mistakes and disagreeing and all that. I think that's all great. I want to use this as an example

I want to get away from the orthodoxy of the gaming industry. It's stifling and it's strangling And that's why do you think let's go back to that because why do you think it is like that? I think why is the gaming industry so? hardcore ideologically left-wing Progressive like no variations no room for debate. Why is that? Well, I think it's it's portrayed It's like it all that's funneled through a media that is that is hyper liberal, right? So it's it's similar in a way to what's going on with the media in news and politics

these You know underneath the surface of the gaming industry. There are plenty of conservatives and libertarians What's going on with the media in news and politics? these You know underneath the surface of the gaming industry there are plenty of conservatives and libertarians They they hide the yeah, they do a lot of them a lot of them. I'm sorry. I'm sorry go ahead I'm just gonna say a lot of them talk to me I mean I know people that are like heads of studios that feel the way I do I know people that are in the trenches at QA and Doing like very menial things at gaming studios. I feel the way I do and everything in between I remember a GDC game developer conference in San Francisco, which happens every spring

Six or seven years ago a guy pulled me aside This is the first time it ever happened to me And this is when I was kind of starting to make a name for myself And he pulled me aside and he's like hey man I work at X Y & Z and I'm it works on a big game And he's like keep doing what you're doing there are a lot of people out there that agree with what you're saying But there's there they they don't dare Speak out because they'll get lambasted in some way look what happened to me over something so innocuous

Well you there obviously you were saying that there's some pushback about your ideas before this yes What did you experience well so every time I would write a politically driven? Op-ed for instance when I was at IGN I had I was I was senior editor but I kind of had like editor at large qualities where meaning for people that don't know editor at large basically in a way do whatever they want like they'll find something to write about I used to go away for days at a time and they'll research things and then write these big 50,000 word articles 50,000 words yeah

the history of that kind of time dude well I did I carved it out but what what about people reading it? Oh, no that kind of it was in five parts The history of naughty dog was like my opus naughty dogs this very huge actually in Santa Monica a very huge game developer very talented Game developer I went and talked to 19 people got about a bunch of primary sources And and all these things and wrote this piece that I really cared about And so but when I would write things like the political correctness piece about let me give you an example There's a game that was cancelled Maybe five years ago or so it was pretty late in development So it's weird to cancel a game when they've already spent a bunch of money on it

it was called six days in Fallujah and it was a Game about it was a third-person shooter. I think about the experience of Fallujah in Iraq you know terrible conflict that happened there and people even on the right we're getting upset about being like it's too soon it's it's this is this is still ongoing how can you do and I wrote a piece being like what are you all saying like this is awesome this is so great that someone wants to tell a story like this and and and do something like this and you just get it from all sides people will be like you know it's it's it's not sensitive it's it's it's all these kinds of things and then the girlfriend mode thing i wrote about where people were like

oh you're a sexist and blah blah blah blah i'm like i'm actually just protecting the sanctity of a man who might have made a mistake that's it you know instead of destroying him it goes back to this whole thing of like the um wait a I'm sorry the girlfriend mode the Borderlands story I told you where the guy and they get they were all going after him and going after his job and all these things and I Wrote a piece being like hey Yeah, like if this is a farce guys like he made a mistake Maybe and I don't know that he should it was a soft target, and they just went after it exactly and It reminds me you experienced blowback. yeah every time from that yeah every time what was the blowback from that from you defending

this guy saying well he just really fucked up the way he described things but he was it was innocent in that regard well you lose like social cachet when every time something like this would happen right so that's why i say like this was the moment the joke was the moment that they were looking to pounce really and i'm not saying that they were calculating everyone's waiting, but they saw an opportunity and they took it. Because over time, you lose respect over people because of your political stances. Completely reasonable political stances, I think, where they remember that you said this and you said this and you said this. So this wasn't like really, you weren't really having debates with people or you were disagreeing with them. It was simply a matter of reaction to some of the things that you had written where they were trying to box you into some sort of a conservative group.

Right, and they would call me an alt-right. Now it's like I'm a Nazi, I'm alt-right. I don't think I have one alt-right. I don't even really know what the alt-right means. What is alt-right? To me, it seems like the far fringes, like the Richard Spencers of the world, the neo-Nazis and the white supremacists and the any actual Nationalists, you know, well soon as you write alt on something. I feel like it's a message board thing like alt-right It's like it's a it's a reddit thing. Yes

Exactly. So alt-right alternative, right? Like what is it? I mean, I don't I don't know the I mean, you're it I hope not based on their based on their based on their characterization of it. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, well, how would they define you as being alt-right? What would they say that you have alt-right characteristics? You can see these message boards, for instance. A lot of people were very supportive on Reddit and all these kind of places that are a little more known for free thought. But there's this one video game message board in particular that is just insane.

And there was a 125 page or so thread about me 20 posts or I think I might even be 50 posts a page And I was reading it and it hurt some of it that because people are like first of all people telling me I said things I never said like one thing people like Collins You know against you know his name is no taxation as you believe that taxes should exist He I often talk about how I really like Ayn Rand and I really like Atlas shrugged, but I don't consider myself an objectivist I don't believe that selfishness is necessarily a virtue I just think she's interesting and I think some of her ideas are interesting, you know, god forbid I exist somewhere in the gray area right and but they're like Collins an objectivist and he's selfish and blah blah blah and I go

Collins a Nazi and he he's a racist He's a saw I think the term a lot of the news was soft racist or soft bigot Soft race being like that he he doesn't he doesn't intentionally or actually overtly say anything But supports causes that are racist or sex these are the kind of character assassinations that were going on basically people with on on on bulletin boards with with yarn and maps like that's what how I picture them like trying to make continuous connections and and and it's like These things aren't even things I feel and and things that I said or being taken out of context. I often use the In video games one of the big things is like you know There's a need for diverse

Casts diverse protagonists and stuff like that and I often use the case that I used to use the saying I don't believe in diversity For diversity sake I believe that an artist should tell his story So if an artist a writer and a game wants to have an all-white cast and that's what he thinks serves his story I don't think that makes him a racist if he wants to have an all-asian cast I don't think that makes him a racist either. I think that's what he wants to do And people took that out of context and were calling me a racist and a bigot and all these kinds of things and it's it's It's hurtful because there's no one there that no one's defending me You know and I can't I can't defend myself because I'll just make it worse.

So it was kind of like this hapless kind of situation that I found myself in. And I tried to make the best of it. I had a debate once about that with a friend who was an Asian actor, and he was talking about the lack of roles for Asians in Hollywood and what a massive issue is. And you know, that he wanted to raise awareness of it. And I was but this we're talking about a creative venture you're talking about somebody writing a story like i think the the correct way to go about it is to try to figure out how to get your own project through or someone else who feels very strongly about this trying to get their own project through but the right way is not for someone to have to compromise their creative vision in order to encompass the full spectrum of races in whatever story they're writing.

Like, a creative story, like, if you want to write a story about a small town in Maine like Stephen King has done so often, you shouldn't have to have 10% Asians in that story. I mean, that's not what creativity is about. It's about, there are places and people where you're going to run into all black folks or you're going to run into all black folks or, or you're going

to run into all Norwegian people. I mean, and those stories are just as valid as a story that's fully diverse, you know? And I don't think that that necessarily makes anything better. And I also think that when you're talking about that, you're, you're sort of talking about it, like there should be a quota, you know, and like Hollywood should recognize the need for these people to be in films and movies. And it's just you're making this politically correct sort of, you're passing these judgments on this thing that is all about imagination. I mean, Hollywood essentially, like when you're making a television show or you're making a movie, it's really about an imagination. I mean, Hollywood essentially, like what, when you're making a television show, or you're making a movie, it's really about an imagination. It's about imagination and vision

and having that vision being entertaining for people. And if you like only want to write about the people that you were in college with, that you were, that you shared a dorm room with, you should be out allowed to. And if there's a disproportionate amount of people that are doing that, that happen to be white males that you know we should probably try to figure out why but the idea that you have to force people to hire asian folks or black folks or women or whatever that's that seems so crazy to me yes serve the story right and to give you a little glimpse to give you some context with what might be going on in gaming there was this very popular game series called the Witcher

Which is made by a Polish developer called CD Projekt there in Warsaw and it's based on the fusion of like Polish kind of identity with This famous book series that's based on like kind of Polish war. You know like kind of the Lord of the Rings, but in Eastern Europe and one guy's cartoon character that works at this website called polygon and his review was talking about how There were no there was no diversity there and and and everyone's like Dude, it's Poland and it's based on Poland of your right like and it's about dragons and like Goblins and there's some white guys and this is like what you're upset about you know and there's another guy uh making and i think he's slovakian i don't want to

somewhere in eastern europe making a game called kingdom come deliverance and it's supposed to be a very realistic look at something like the 14th or 15th century in that area and again they're complaining there's no diversity. There's no diversity. And he's like, there was no black people in this area in 1500. I'm trying to make a game that's true to the era. That doesn't make him a racist. And this is just the kind of bullshit. But you see this in movies. You see this in TV shows.

It's not exclusive to gaming, but it's what I've had to deal with for a long time. And I'm just sick of it. What's the root of it, though? What's causing it like why why do people feel like they have to put a black person in a game about? Poland in the 1500s or whatever it was I think I mean I don't the thankfully the people that make the games don't care like they're like we're gonna make our game right The people that are complaining about it their virtuous virtue signaling which is not even a term I even knew what it meant until a few weeks ago like I heard people throw that term around

I didn't quite know what a man i even knew what it meant until a few weeks ago like i heard people throw that term around i didn't quite know what a man i looked at looked into it it's you know you know what it is it's it's the idea that they you know these virtuous people it's the same people that attack me for the joke i have to be virtuous and show that i am against sexism so i have to attack the man you know i have to do all these kinds of things in in this need you know but what they're saying when they when they when they're saying we have to have black people in this game in Eastern Europe in the 1500s, what they're saying, what they're really saying is you're a racist.

That's the subtext. And it goes back to this character assassination and this need to destroy. I often use the example of, do you remember when Gawker wrote about the Condé Nast CFO and outed him? No, I don't know what that story is. What's that story about?

So on Gawker, this guy wrote this story about the CFO of Condé Nast. What is that? Condé Nast is like this big conglomerate that owns a bunch of smaller businesses. They're a pretty big company. I don't know. I think they might even be in publishing and stuff like that.

Okay. And so they wrote. Okay, and So they wrote this story and the entire crux of the story this guy that no one this guy I think is brother or brother-in-law with Timothy Geithner So that's his that's his claim to fame I guess but he's just a private citizen that works as a CFO of this big corporation They write this piece that outs him as a gay man That he's having or trying to have an affair behind his wife's back with this guy All of this stuff just and I'm like I read this piece. I'm like what is the purpose of this? Why and I'm sure Jamie if you want to you can probably find it. I mean, I did they why did they write it um?

clicks you know and and it actually blow up in their faces people were fucking furious about this because this wasn't yet, so there's the Thing it's like they just out this guy for no reason destroyed his life Gawker on Thursday evening helped his gruntal sex worker extort the chief financial officer at Condé Nast and brother former treasure check Treasury secretary Kim Geithner that I see his Secretary Kim Geithner. Did I say his name? Tim Geithner, yep. Jetsoning any semblance of journalistic integrity and likely ruining a man's life in the process. I'm telling you, you can go jump down the rabbit hole with this.

Read about this guy. This is such an example of outrage, not even outrage culture, of just character assassination for the sake of it. Now I kind of remember this. Now I'm kind of remembering this story. It's almost, it's unfortunate. There's so many fucking crazy stories. So it's yes He is married and has three children allegedly arranged a night with a male escort on a recent trip to Chicago when the escort found

Out who the CFO was he asked for help with an ongoing housing dispute in other words trying to kick into the government because of his Connection with Geithner the CFO allegedly got spooked and canceled their meeting though He paid in full for the for you know Whatever rendezvous they were gonna have in full for the for you know whatever rendezvous They were gonna have in retaliation the escort went to Gawker which published the story despite knowing that doing so would play into the extortion Attempt the site also published screenshots of the pair's alleged text message exchange including several photos Mmm, they shook this guy down and ruined him just ruined him ruined it probably He's gonna have problems with his wife probably get divorced now his kids are gonna be in limbo

He's gonna lose his job, and he's got to follow him around forever. Why? Because he tried to have, you know, it's not our business if he's cheating on his wife and it's not our business if he's gay and it's not our business if he's trying to have a, be with a male escort. They just saw a clickbait. Yep. And this is, and this is what it's all about.

It's to say, I would even go further with Gawker, which obviously ended up taking him down with Hulk Hogan. It's like, why? Because he's a famous person, his sex tape is gonna ruin his friendship ruin his marriage run all these connections What what kind of pleasure do you get out of that? That goes back to the point I was making about how I wouldn't write stories about a couple people back in the day because I didn't want to ruin them Mm-hmm

That's not what I'm out to do and I feel like that so it all plays into the same culture the same culture of character assassination neo-puritanism, witch hunting, enjoying the fall of random people. There's a responsibility that comes with this that there's almost like a power that has not been earned. that or whether it's ability to uh just to to make tweets and just attack someone that this this this ability is really very very new and the ability to mass publish like to make a tweet about a guy like you just decide colin mariardi is a piece of shit i can't believe that joke fucking sexist and then boom put that out there and then it gets retweeted over and over again like that people don't necessarily understand the repercussions of these actions that this is like There there's there's an amount of power that they really haven't earned

There's amount of power and influence that had that you that you have in The your ability to express yourself today. That's a really new thing I look at it a little differently in the sense that because cause I think you're right. I think you're onto something there, but I think it's also the mob mentality that it's, that exposes the fact that say I was ruined forever. Right. And they won, whatever that means. And then people go like, Hey, you just ruined that guy. Why did you do that? And they can be like, Oh, he did it. Oh, he did it. Oh, he did it. He did. In other words, no one's responsible for it. And when you're in this mob, it's old-fashioned witch hunting. And it's done for strangely puritanical reasons.

Do you think that there's also an inclination to do it because you're worried that it's going to happen to you and you want to attack first? This is almost a thing where people want to take the vision off of themselves. They want to take the vision off of themselves or they, they want to take the, the, the scrutiny off of themselves and point. And when you point it at someone else enough and you keep pointing it at other people, they, I mean, eventually people kind of get it after a while, but like, is it that little expression that if you want to look at like the, with, with girls, it was always like the girls who would talk shit about other girls being sluts were always the biggest sluts, right? You know, I mean, there's this weird thing about people where if you're going after folks and a lot of those

Sort of situations what you're trying to do is take some of the eyes off of you I think that that's I think there's probably a huge element of it I find it strange because I went about my business in a different way for the same reason if that makes any sense so it's Like I don't want to you're making the argument which I think is true that it's like don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain like there's all this stuff over there and my whole thing was like I don't want to Be involved in this I get that you know get that and I believe you that you don't want to be involved now And I think that's very virtuous. I think it's it's very nice that you think the way you do I think it's important

And I think it's important that you have this ability to express yourself and let people know that that is a good way to look at the least amount of conflict that you can go through life with, the better you're going to be off, as long as it's an unnecessary conflict. And I think in this situation, this is clearly unnecessary conflict. Yeah. And that's the whole thing. And it causes this rigorous kind of atmosphere where we can see it in politics, too. Where? Everyone's mad about everything like Donald Trump reads everyone's mad Donald Trump read today The picture that's going around on CNN and words like it was literally like this Donald Trump afraid of stairs Was like the Chiron the lower third and it's like and it's like stairs and it's like refers elevators

Yeah, he prefers gilded elevators, but they're serious I hear your real question. This is yeah. This is the kind of stuff that's going on And so when you see st a I are or s no stairs like that you walk up and down Yeah, and a IRS because it could be like the easy rate of stay but uh to me I'm like you know and that's why it goes back You know the the fact is and I think this is an important component to maybe making you understand What happened a little bit better because you're not in that ecosystem. But I think you can relate because you're seeing it happen elsewhere, is that the gaming media is dying.

And they're dying because no one really trusts them or cares what they have to say anymore. 10-year-olds and 15-year-olds today are not growing up being like, I wonder what Polygon has to say about the newest game. Ten-year-olds and 15 year olds today are not growing up being like I wonder what polygon has to say about the newest game they Go to youtube and find a guy there that they trust and believe Which is why the only people unanimously pretty much that came out in my defense were youtubers because they know That they're the next rung of this evolution of the way we absorb and communicate and absorb information and have news Meanwhile these people to your point are writing clickbait trying to stay relevant, but no one really cares what they're saying anyway So they're in their death throes. This is a way for them to take shots at multiple people at the same time This is what they did a PewDiePie. This is what they did to other people and PewDiePie one was really egregious

It was egregious, but but like again a lot of that stuff was taken out of context Yes, and and a lot of I don't mean PewDiePie was agreed. Oh, yeah. I mean the attacks on him Oh, yeah, it was terrible what Wall Street Journal did to him This is just a sign of the times. These are people fighting, and I really feel this way, and you might disagree, but I feel like a lot of it is these people are fighting for their lives. If I were a person that was writing about- Wait, hold on.

The journalist. The journalist, yeah. Yeah. Like, if I were- I'm sorry to interrupt you. If I were- if I had written in the video game industry for 10 years, right? I wrote in the gaming industry for 14 years but if I was a 10-year industry veteran and I had fewer than 10,000 Twitter followers, and I'm writing for a site

No one reads and I'm trying my hardest to stay relevant and to do my thing I'd be pretty mad too If I saw a guy that turns on his camera and speaks whatever he wants and gets the amount of views in 30 minutes that I'll Get the entire year. Why would you be mad because nothing to do with you? What does it has a lot to do with you because there's only so much time and space for these people to absorb things and That's famine mentality. They'd rather go to 350 million people in this country alone And there's many many more people all over the world the idea that anybody's views is somehow or another taking away from your views It's just straight famine mentality. There's plenty of eyes to go around.

You're showing it right now with your new project. Sure, but I'm just like... But I'm just saying, like, their thought process sucks. Yeah, and ostensibly, it's actually adding to their destruction because people are looking at this. Like, the media, for instance, in the political landscape is dying anyway. The decline is happening. Wall Street Journal put up a piece not too long ago saying that per capita

Viewership on television is actually starting to be outpaced by YouTube so that's over now right so like now you and that's not on video online or video on demand that's just YouTube and So people are looking at the situation and actually precipitating it happening quicker because in order to stay relevant They lie or they write hit pieces I think we should talk about what happened with PewDiePie because most people like who the fuck is PewDiePie and what happened sure Do you want me to explain? Yeah, okay, so PewDiePie is is the biggest youtuber in the world He has 55 million subscribers, and he's a millionaire Just to be clear I've never I don't really know him very well

I think I've had one or two communicates with him at some point, but, um, I don't know him. So I don't really have a horse in the race. Uh, he lives in Europe. He lives in England. I think he's Swedish or something of that nature, but he lives in England. Um, and, uh, he has a massive YouTube following. I mean, every video he does will have 10, 12, 15 million views. And you know, you're on YouTube.

I'm on YouTube in a much lesser sense. That's a lot of views. Um, and he pushed the boundaries in some ways in some tasteless ways, as this is right. And the thing that really caught on was that he was using this app or this service called Fiverr, which is this kind of task rabbit kind of thing where it's like you can pay people to do whatever you want. And he paid, some of the things he did were otherwise, you want um and he paid some of the things he did were otherwise but he paid these guys in some country to hold up these uh like death to all jews signs or something like that as part of a joke um and uh you know and it's something i think is somewhat tasteless um but he's trying to make a

point whatever point he was trying to make he was trying to make a point it was lost on a lot of people and this combined with some other imagery he had been using some like kind of fascist or nazi imagery and some other things that have been going on over the months I'm sorry. Did you want to oh, I know you're at say something. I'm sorry and So eventually the Wall Street Journal caught wind of this Wall Street Journal obviously of a prolific right of center But still pretty moderate newspaper And basically went after him and tried to just basically tried to destroy him and took a lot of things out of context and

forced Disney'sney owns a studio that funds him and all these kinds of things and caused a lot of personal and economic destruction for this it seems like they intentionally took things out of context too and they distorted the actual intent of what he was trying to do especially with uh telling people to not be nazis he was like mocking people that were being nazis and they used that to say this guy is pretending to be a Nazi. Right. It was a completely dishonest hit piece in the same vein as the Condé Nast hit piece. It's the same vein as the Hulk Hogan hit.

It's these people, you know, the term punching up. They want to punch up and they think they're punching up. Wall Street Journal is punching up now on YouTubers. But really caused a lot of... That's hilarious. Punching up on a YouTuber. That's the way they look at it. Isn't that hilarious?

It is. This guy's a YouTuber youtuber he's a guy by himself you're punching up to attack him because he's the king because he's the media elite i mean that's the media elite i mean it's like an independent reporter attacking the you know abc news or something like that exactly and and to me it was like it showed a lot of cowardice it showed a lot of half-cocked thinking on there on the wall street journals part to think that this wasn't going to blow back on them and it showed a lot of cowardice. It showed a lot of half-cocked thinking on the Wall Street Journal's part to think that this wasn't going to blow back on them. And it showed a level, and I hate using this word because I don't think innately it's necessarily a bad thing because I think it drives you forward. But there's a level of jealousy at play with a lot of these kinds of things that are happening. That's what you were thinking about before when you were saying that someone who is struggling to get 10,000 views on any story they write is going to look at a guy like this that can do one video where he Talks about farts, and he makes you know his 7 million views or something like that

He makes 50 million a year at him Yeah, and they're mad and they don't understand it and I get that you know I look at some people that are famous or some People that are you know have a platform I'm like I don't get this, but I'm not gonna like sit here and like of course rain on their parade That's their right. They have an audience. That's totally fine Maybe look at yourself of why you don't have an audience. Maybe look at yourself and realize that if you've been doing this for so long and you're so proud of that, why isn't anyone listening to you? Could it be you? You know, instead of, instead of looking around for people to assassinate,

which is what's basically happening here. I just, I find it so distasteful. I find it so destructive. We're at the precipice of a very dangerous time because the trust in institutions, no matter where you are now, is just lost. And a lot of it has to do, and that's what I was saying with media precipitating the fall by not telling the truth, by not doing the right thing. I think the media in terms of politics, for instance, is really rebounding from the fact that they thought Clinton was going to win. So they thought they can get away with saying and doing anything for that means to an end Yeah, the Donna Brazile thing for instance where she was feeding questions to the Clinton campaign. Yeah is so incredible So shows such a level of bias and systemic inherent bias. They thought they were gonna get away with all of it now

No one trusts anyone. So when I see all this stuff I don't know what's going on with Russia and Trump for all I know he could be a fucking Manchurian candidate You know, but I don't believe a word they say, you know, like when I read this about Paul Manafort about Flynn about blah blah Blah blah blah. I'm like, I don't know you lied about all this other shit I have no idea what you're talking about, you know, I have to really do my own research I don't even know who to trust anymore They did that to themselves and they precipitated their own downfall More and more people are going on YouTube to listen to people like you, to listen to people even like Alex Jones, to listen to Dave Rubin.

It's a giant problem. It is a problem because you need— Especially if you're listening to me. Well, it's a problem because you need people in the trenches that you trust. You need someone in the press room at the White House. You need someone in the AP that is on the wire, that is telling you the truth. But when you can't even trust them anymore, that's a big problem. And that's when people go seek out alternative sources of news and information and entertainment,

and that's what's happening. And that's why they're dying. Yeah. Well, in many ways that sure, that big corporate model is ensuring their own demise. Absolutely. And it's the race for clicks. It's the race for money. It's the race for prominence. It's the race for relevance. And not honesty and not transparency and not a real objective sense of what the truth is and what the actual facts of a story are. That's where journalism is a different thing now because it's now a entertainment show. It's an entertainment show that also has the news in it. But that's why the women are so hot. That's why the women on Fox News are wearing these tiny little dresses and they have beautiful legs and heels on.

And they're talking about important issues. But they're giving you a little bit of eye candy while they're doing it. It's so transparent, too, when I see that kind of stuff. I'm like, that's a very attractive woman. I'm sure she knows what she's talking about. But I know why she sits at the end of the table. I like when they're aggressive, too. Like Megyn Kelly.

She's attractive and she's aggressive. Yeah, she's smart. That's what makes her sexy. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about but uh you know yeah so we're in this we're in this we're in this weird space you know yeah we're in this is just very bizarre space do you feel like this is like an almost an adolescent period in human communication that we're going through this weird growth period where where we have this incredible access to information and the ability to spread it like we have now with with social media and with YouTube and all these different things

where anybody can kind of hop in and all of a sudden get a platform like this PewDiePie guy PewDiePie wasn't a star he wasn't a politician he wasn't an actor before this he was just a guy yep and he connected with people and carved out this path for himself and pretty pretty much anybody can kind of do that now I mean there's it's not easy. It's not, if it was easy, everyone would do it, but it is not insurmountable. And I wonder what the next stage is in terms of the ability to share information, if it's going to change past where it's at now and get to some new level. Yeah, I think you're right in the sense that the internet

specifically had taken off so quickly. The world wide you know is only 24 years old the internet's way older but the way we communicate with each other now is so different than even usenet in the 80s or these kind of university university communications that they had going on in the 70s where they were sharing things amongst each other you don't need gatekeepers anymore there are no gatekeepers you can go start a youtube channel now find an audience gain thousand subscribers make a lot of money and say what you want. And that's scary to the traditional gatekeepers. And they don't like it. And their fight against it is so transparent and it's so self-serving when I don't, we need a media that we can trust, but I don't think we need the media as it is right now either, because the media we have right now is bloated dishonest partisan politically and

Motivated all these things that don't really serve a purpose to educating and informing someone the days of Cronkite are gone Well doesn't that sort of set the stage for someone to come in and offer a viable alternative? I hope so there you are Colin Moriarty. Yeah, that's that's the idea is like just in my own way Like I don't I don't have these delusions of grandeur that I'm gonna make millions of dollars and have this huge reach I just already at thirty nine thousand dollars a month you better cut the shit with this humility stuff I just I know you're doing I know what you're doing you fuck stop I just I'm just trying to say that I didn't have I left my you know I was making good money I own you know kind of funny

I I walked away expecting that I was gonna take a pay cut to do what I Really wanted to do and try to do the right thing. And it's great that people are responding the way they do. I hope they continue to respond this way because it will allow us to do more of it. My advice to you, stop being concerned with that and just do the best stuff. Stop being concerned with being humble about all this. And it's definitely going to drop. It's definitely going to make.

I'm not going to be famous. I'm not going to be. Forget about all that nonsense. Well, it's all like you've shackled yourself. Just plow forward, young man. I appreciate it. Plow forward with intent. You've got some good content, man.

You're a smart dude. Thank you very much. I appreciate it so much. My pleasure, man. And thanks for coming on here, man. It was a good time. I really enjoyed it. We'll do it some more.

Thank you. I really appreciate you, Joe. And when you do have a thing and it does go live in April, I'd be happy to help you promote it and happy to have you back on again. And it was really awesome. Really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

Colin Moriarty, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be back in a little while with my friend Justin Wren. See you soon. Bye. That was great, dude. Cool. Thank you. That was a lot of fun.

How long did we go? Awesome. Two or three hours.