The Joe Rogan Experience - #959 - Mick West

Episode Date: May 10, 2017

Mick West is a game programmer, writer, and debunker. Currently runs a few websites including http://MetaBunk.org and http://ContrailScience.com Round Earth Shill T-Shirt - http://www.youngjamie.com/shop/reshill

And we're live ladies and gentlemen. We're live sporting the latest round earth shill. We're just coming out with it. Round earth shill t-shirts. Both Jamie and I get $3 per month from the federal government to tell you that the world is round. government to tell you that the world the world is round and Mick West is a big part of it all he is one of the main shills that tells everybody that he knowing that he has a whole website dedicated to arguing against people to think the world is flat yeah the difference is I don't get paid for it come on stop lying I know you're getting 350 per month yeah I wish I did I would have to pay for my web hosting and it's coming out of my pocket and nobody pays me anything see Mick West serious He's not joking around with us What this has got to be one of the most bizarre

Trends and Jamie I think you said it first that you thought it was originally a troll you thought that they were fucking around like I still think some people are yeah for sure You thought that they were fucking around like I still think some people are yeah for sure It's yeah, but I feel like it started out with like 4chan or something like that Or maybe you read it these crazy kids these wacky kids They decide to start trolling saying that the earth is round or the earth is flat That's some of it, but a lot of it is just people who? you know they

They actually believe it yes There's a lot there are people actually believe it and then there's people who see that there's people out there who believe it and then they start by kind of egging these people on yes and then it becomes really really hard to tell where the dividing line is who's actually trolling and who's actually a genuine true believer there are absolutely a lot of true believers but there's also a lot of people with little green frogs in their avatar that think it's fucking hilarious.

Yeah, I think that type of person has kind of adopted it. Yes. You were talking about shitposting the other day. Yes, yes. And that's just something that you could do is if you want to just annoy people by shitposting, you'll just post a bunch of flat earth memes

because they're so infuriating to the average person that they're just going to be, what the heck is this that this person is posting? And the shitposter enjoys that type of thing. I was watching a video where this guy was ranting on and on that it's not a theory, that we need to stop accepting that the flat earth is a theory, but that it's a fact. We need to start accepting the fact that it's a fact. He was hilarious.

Let me find his, because I saved it. I think his name was like Vegan Warrior or something like that, which is always a good, yes, Vegan Warrior. He's a realist. It says it's no long, he's not only a flat earther, he's a realist it says it's no long he's not only a flat earth or he's a realist yeah I think I've come across him I think it's actually a relatively small number of people who are really active in promoting the the flat earth stuff on on YouTube what's adorable is that they could keep claiming that all the photos of earth are fake but they don't have a

single photo of this fucking ice wall that's supposed to be around Antarctica. Yeah. And they keep saying erroneously that you're not allowed to fly over Antarctica. Like, yes, you are. They keep saying that there's no photographs of Earth from space, that they're all composites. No, that's not true. Why do they keep saying that? They keep saying that they keep saying

that there's a fucking saddle is a bunch of satellites but there's one from Japan that takes high-resolution photos of the earth every 10 minutes the full earth from 22,000 miles away yeah that's the Japanese Himawari 8 yeah yeah but there's also like as a US satellite that was just launched last year the go 16 satellite which is basically the same resolution pull this sucker right up to But there's also like, there's a US satellite that was just launched last year, the GOES-16 satellite, which is basically the same resolution. Pull this sucker right up to your face. Sorry.

And the Russians, the Russians have a satellite. Everyone's got their own satellite, because this is basically a weather satellite. Yeah. So they put them like over the equator so they can see their own country. So Russia has one. You can mostly see India. China has one.

It's not as good as the other ones. But the Russian one is like a, you know, it's the same resolution, 121 megapixels. That's the size of the image they do. It's like 11,000 pixels by 11,000 pixels view of the earth. And you can zoom in and you can see cities, you can see contrails. And you can actually use these images from the satellites to actually match up with the views of clouds and controls from the ground. So you can actually check to see if these images are actually correct, at least for where you are. Right.

Then you could like find a friend somewhere else and ask them, you know, do you have this type of cloud overhead? So you can actually verify whether these images are actually real or not. Well, I brought it up to my friend Eddie, and he said it's all fake. He said all the

photos are fake they look fake i'm like but how would you know what a real photo of earth from 23 000 miles looked like wouldn't it look exactly like earth yeah i think when you get to that stage of deep belief you kind of have to believe that they're fake there's no way and there's a real challenge like how do you actually break through that for somebody how can you actually uh convince them that something isn't fake if they just automatically assume it's fake and i think has has the person actually looked in detail at these images most people know and how they looked at the fact that you know you get one every 10 minutes or one every 15 minutes and do uh you know every single image is this 121-megapixel image,

and it all matches up exactly with what the weather is around the world. And it matches up with all the other size images, one from the Russians, one from the Chinese, one from the Japanese. They all match up. And I really don't think that the people who say, ah, it's fake, have really actually looked at what's actually out there. They definitely haven't, nor do they have any desire to. It's a belief issue, and it's almost like a religious issue. It's really fascinating. It's completely infected the world of professional pool players.

Really? Professional pool players? Yeah, professional pool players. There's a guy named C.J. Wiley. He's a top pool player who's 100% convinced the earth is flat. Wow. There's another guy named Max Everly. He's a buddy of mine. Out of his mind.

Thinks the world's flat. I wonder if that's related to their obsession with the table being flat. No, I don't think so. They have to make sure the table's level. But then they've got these little round balls on the table as well. That's confusing, right? Yeah, you've got a little solar system going on with your pool balls. What's confusing is they're smart guys.

If you talk to them, you'd be like, this is a reasonable intelligent guy. Are they really believing that it's flat? 100%. They're not shit posting. That's unusual. People, they go down a YouTube rabbit hole and that's part of the problem is once you believe something it's very difficult to unbelieve it.

It is and there's so much out there that if you tell people to do some research, what they end up doing is just looking at more Crazy videos that confirm what they they believe that they prefer the ones that confirm it of course But it's just amazing to me that people would decide that all of these photos were fake so that they don't believe the world is Around but yet they don't have a single photo of this fucking flat earth not one not one photo not only that every planet you see is round you can you could follow them you could look at them with with if you have a reasonable telescope you could see the difference as they change and

spin i mean you you can tell that they're round there's a lot of flat earthers have the same camera that I've got, which is a Nikon P900. Flat earthers have an excellent camera? They have... I brought one with me. They have, like, Nikon has a deal with the Flat Earth Society? It's this camera. It's just like...

It's not like a SLR or anything. It's just like a $600 camera. But it's got this really, really long zoom lens on it. Like, it's like a 2,000 millimeter zoom lens. So you can see, you can zoom in on the moon, you can zoom in on the stars and planets. And you can use this camera, I've used it a few times, to actually take pictures of Jupiter and of Venus and Mars. And you can actually just make out the roundness of the planet and the actual shadow of the

sun. You'll see Venus as being like the moon, being like an arc. And you'll see Jupiter and you see the bands of Jupiter. And you can do that with this camera. And this is a camera that a lot of them have because they're obsessed with zooming in on things that are on the horizon,

like ships going beyond the horizon. But if they just take the same camera that they have and point it upwards, they would actually see things in the, you know, see the solar system, basically, that really can't be explained any other way. Like, one great thing is the moons of Jupiter. If you look at Jupiter really closely, even with some binoculars, you can see it's got these four little moons that are orbiting it. And it looks like there's four little lights in a line with Jupiter. And they actually move around in a regular pattern.

And they move around, they've got orbits of like, some of them I think are 80 hours or something, so they move around really fast, like every day it's a completely different pattern, these little dots around Jupiter. And you can actually see that with this camera, I've taken photos of it, posted them on the website, or even with binoculars. And if you actually watch it from day to day, you will see the moons of Jupiter move in exactly the same way that science predicts that they should move.

Using Kepler's laws of planetary motion and Newton's law of gravitation, they move exactly as if they are a little simulation of a planetary system. So either there's some kind of weird hologram up in that little corner of the sky, which moves around, or there is actually a planet there with little moons orbiting it. Hmm, probably a hologram. When did you first become aware of this?

Like, you've run Metabunk for a long time, and for those who don't know, Mick and I met on the sci-fi show that I did, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, where we discussed chemtrails or contrails and what causes a jet engine to make what looks like artificial clouds. By passing through condensation, the heat of the engine produces these contrails. And people were absolutely convinced that they're spraying, the government is spraying something in the sky. And you had a really good explanation for it. You said they're basically like training wheels for conspiracy theories. Yeah.

Yeah. It's something you can see, I think, is kind of more enticing. Yes. And I think the same thing applies to the flat earth. Now, when I got into the flat earth thing, I became aware of it a few years ago. What's that sound? Yeah, so the government is trying to, oh, is that your camera? Yeah. Yeah.

Fret me out, man. The government, man. Spying on you. Yeah, so like, when I first heard about the flat earth thing, obviously I've heard it before. Actually, my father going back, when I was young, he told me that he was a member of the flat earth society. Your father told you that? Yeah. Was he joking around? Kind of, but he was doing it in a kind of satirical way, ironically. He was doing it because he was saying people are too sure of themselves, and so I'm going to join the Flat Earth Society. He didn't believe the Earth was round. So it's been around for quite a while, the Flat Earth Society. Yeah, the Flat Earth Theory has been around, you know, obviously like thousands of years ago people thought the Earth was round,

and then slightly fewer thousand years ago people figured out that it wasn't. It was figured out by the ancient Greeks like 3,000 years ago that it wasn't. That it wasn't round? That it wasn't flat, sorry. Oh, you fucked it up. You and by the way it wasn't round that it wasn't it wasn't flat sorry oh you fucked it up you gave up the goose you you said thousands of years ago that people thought the earth was round and they realized it wasn't yeah you just right now you you've gave them fuel that's a quote that's going to go on youtube like my uh i am a shill quote yep from the last one yeah strike that one a slight misquote yeah so so yeah what happened was science basically

figured out the shape of the universe and you know in the uh the 1800s there was a gentleman scientist doing all sorts of all kinds of cool things with stars like measuring the orbits and checking out how far away things were and discovering that there were galaxies and things like that you know there's all this science going on. But then there was this kind of, this guy comes along called Samuel Robotham, who published under the name of Parallax in about 1860. And he started publishing what is basically the same as Eric DeBay's book that is being published now. Pretty much every single thing that is in Eric DeBay's current book

you will find in Samuel Robotham's book from 1860. And in fact, if you read DeBay's book, which I don't recommend, you will see that about 80% of the text of Eric DeBay's book is actually quotes from these books from the 1800s. It's not actually this new stuff that he's discovered. It's all stuff like if somebody walks away from you, you will see their feet disappear first. And then he has a two-page quote of Samuel Rowbotham saying the exact same thing from the 1860s. So it's basically recycling this theory that started in the 1860s and then just adding a few little sprinkles to it, like saying that astronauts must be fake and the space station is fake.

They think that satellites are fake as well. Yeah. But Dubé, he's hilarious. He thinks that dinosaurs are fake, nuclear bombs are fake. I mean, the idea that one person would be this mastermind that discovers all these monumental frauds. Yeah. Well, I don't think he's claiming to have discovered these things.

There's lots of people who think that nukes are fake and that dinosaurs being fake is an obvious thing for creationists and people of that ilk. But yeah, he's basically recycling theories in a way that is popular to the reader and figuring out how to get them across to people. So he does these YouTube videos that are very engaging, and they sound good. They sound, if you don't know what's what, they sound like they make sense. That's the problem.

And some of them are quite technical. At least they use a lot of technical terms. Right. But they delve into things like, there's a variety of experiments. The Michelson-Morley experiment that Eddie mentioned is one of them that keeps cropping up. And then there's the… Which has never been reproduced.

That's the experiment that supposedly… It actually has been reproduced because it's… Well, the wrong way. Not the way that they wanted to. The Michelson-Morley experiment was an experiment to detect the luminiferous ether, which is the supposed medium through which light travels. Now, back in the 1800s, we didn't know that light was made up out of photons because light was waves. So we thought that there was this stuff that permeated all of space

called the luminiferous ether. It's a little hard to pronounce. And that this is what light traveled through as waves going through and they didn't know exactly how it worked, but they figured there must be this stuff that permeates all of space. And then they figured that since the Earth was moving, and these scientists actually knew at the time that the Earth was moving, so they were using this as a basis for their experiment, they thought that since the Earth was moving, and these scientists actually knew at the time that the Earth was moving, so they were using this as a basis for their experiment, they thought that if the Earth is moving, then they will be able to detect the ether by doing this experiment. So what they did, they set up this experiment where they shot light one

direction, then they shot it in the other direction, then when it came back together, it combined and if they were moving through the ether, or if the ether was moving through them, then the light that went one way would interfere with the light that went the other way. So that was the whole experiment, was just this thing. They shot these two light beams in two directions, and they figured, like, you know, if we turn the table this way, it will change because we're now going through the ether in a different direction. But what happened was nothing was detected,

which was kind of the start of people realizing, oh, there is no luminiferous ether permeating the universe. Right, but they used that to say that it's because the Earth isn't moving. That was what the flat Earth people tried to use, right? Yeah, they did. They did, but Michelson and Morley knew the Earth was moving. They wanted to figure out whether the ether was moving with the earth or whether the earth was moving through the ether right so they were trying to detect the ether so people who thought that the earth was

the center of the universe not really so much flat earthers people who were geocentrists people who thought that the sun went around the earth and the whole all the stars went around the earth there's still people like that by the way way. Oh, yeah. There's recent resurgence. I think it was Gavin McGinnis sent me something where some guy thinks the Earth is the center of the universe. Essentially, he was saying that it sort of confirms everything in Genesis. I was like, what? Yeah, well, I mean, if you need to shoehorn the whole universe

into the descriptions in Genesis, then you're probably going to have to take a few shortcuts. But yeah, there's these experiments like the Michelson-Morley experiment, but people bring them up and they say that what they detected was no motion. Right. But what it actually detected was no luminiferous ether. Right. And because they detected no luminiferous ether, they eventually led to theories about what light actually is, which is wave-particle duality. You know, light is photons, which act both as a wave and as a particle, and eventually to the theory of relativity.

Well, you started MetaBunk when? When did you? I think it was about five years ago. But I've been doing the chemtrail stuff with Contrail Science for like over 10 years now. I was just looking at one of my old posts on satellite images. I was quite surprised at how long I'd been doing it. And, yeah, Metabunk had been going about five years. And the Flat Earth stuff came up maybe two years ago.

I started to see things about Flat Earth. And a bit over a year ago, I wrote a post on, you know, what should we do about debunking the Flat Earth? And it basically said, like, all these people are basically either trolling or they're crazy. So there's no point addressing either of them. And I think most of them are just trolling because no one could seriously believe this. You'd have to be like, I don't think you're right. I know.

I've come to realize that I'm not. I was wrong. And that post now, you know, it's gone down the line. But it's, you know, I've almost done like a 180 from that. It's stunning. It really is stunning. And it's stunning how many people, like this is why Jamie made these young Jamie calm You can go and get these flat earth shale shirts that somehow or another we're being paid to say that the earth is round

Like the idea that anybody would actually believe that I've had so many people tweet at me I know where your checks are coming from bro your fucking sellout. I may sell out Like why would I you do you don't think that if I really thought the earth was flat, like if someone thought the earth was flat, what a revelation that would be. What an amazing discovery. Every scientist would be clamoring to expose this. Every single scientist. The idea that all these scientists who make their name off discoveries, by the way, especially a monumental and provable discovery, like the world being flat, like somehow or another, they would hide that.

And then the big question is, why would the government say the world is flat? I mean, why would they in any way, why would they rather hide the fact the world is flat? Like what motivation would anybody have to show that the world was round? It would be pretty fascinating if we lived on this flat disk and everybody else throughout the universe

was on a planet. We'd be like, whoa, what's going on? And there's a weird thing that's going on with some of these flat-earth people where they're linking this To a sign that we are in some way special that we are the chosen ones and that we you know and some It's it keeps going back to Genesis and that you know that we are the children of God and that creation is true and that evolution is a lie. And it gets to some weird anti-Jew stuff with a lot of these guys. Yeah.

Well, a lot of conspiracy theories basically boil down to some kind of suspicion of other people and quite often suspicion of Jewish people. Why Jewish people? Why? It's always the Jews, man. It's just... People can't catch a break. I don't know exactly why.

I think perhaps, you know, perhaps because of the whole, the Jews killed Jesus, so Christians don't like the Jews, or some Christians don't like the Jews. Yeah. So they've just been viewed as being an other. And they're often, you know, the Jewish, the broader Jewish population is often like a minority within cities. And so it's kind of an easy person to pick on when things go wrong. minority within cities and so it's got an easy person to pick on when things go wrong but I don't I'm sure there's loads of books written on white white Jews are the subject of conspiracy theories and do Bay have a recent video about Jews and about Hitler they all go down that road yeah what what can be done if

anything other than your website what can be done if if anything, other than your website? What can be done, if anything? My concern is these young kids that are on the fence. My thoughts are, look, I'm not going to reach out. There's some 45-year-old crazy person who's making YouTube videos three times a day about the world being flat and ranting and raving and challenging everyone to debates that he's never going to engage in. Those guys don't mean anything to me. You can't do anything about them.

But there's some 16-year-old kids out there that maybe are in high school and maybe don't have a real formal education in science or astrophysics. And they're getting confused. And they maybe smoke a little too much pot. That's you, motherfucker, whoever's listening to this. That's you. And you start it's i've i've been tricked before and i wrote this big um instagram post recently about um rods about those roswell rods i read it god they got me i was convinced i was convinced but it was just i

never looked into it i just watched a documentary and this guy had the footage i was like wow these things are flying around we We can't see them. That's crazy. And then a show called, if you never saw the Instagram post that I made, there was a guy that made this video, a documentary. I think he made more than one. And it showed that there was these things that looked like tubes that had jellyfish-like wings that were flying through the air, supposedly at speeds undetectable to the human eye. Like they were moving so fast we couldn't see them.

And so I was convinced, man. I was really convinced. And then there was a show called Monster Quest, and what they did is they set up two cameras. One camera, which was a very fast, high-speed camera, and the other one, which is a standard video camera. And the standard video camera caught all these rods flying around and then the exact same images right next to each other with this high definition

high-speed camera showed actual bugs so what those rods were was just a video artifact of these bugs that were moving so close to the screen and so fast that the camera couldn't register it correctly, and so it created this elongating effect and made it look like they were these jellyfish. Yeah, well, I think that type of thing, that type of video is the type of thing that needs to be done to counteract this type of belief.

But I don't think it would work, though, because if people aren't looking at the Himawari 8, if they see those images, like, I put those images up, and, dude, if you look at them my Instagram post It's filled with people angry at me because they think it's fake They think it's fake and I think I'm a shill because I put that up Yeah, if if you can't get people to look at thing that's that's a challenge in itself How do you get people to look at things?

But I think like if you start slowly I do it I engage with a lot of like Conspiracy theorists online and I know when I'm doing it I'm not actually gonna reach the vast majority of the people I'm talking directly to but I know there's lots of other people reading what I'm saying who who will and you know just because people are complaining about your posts of the Himawari 8 images doesn't mean that there aren't people who actually went and looked it up oh I'm sure because I think it got like 50,000 likes or something like that. So I'm sure even besides people that didn't like it, many people, they were like, oh, really?

Because that was one of the big things that the flat Earth people kept saying, that there's no photos of the Earth that aren't a composite from space. It's just not true. And this Rod's video that you saw with the two cameras, if that hadn't existed, you might have taken a bit longer. Yes. I mean, you might still believe it now. You might be telling your friends about it. Have you seen these crazy rods that are everywhere?

The guy who made that video showed up at a Q&A that I did once for the UFC. I do these Q&As where people yell out questions like, what do you think about this guy fighting that guy, that kind of thing. People yell out questions like, what do you think about this guy fighting that guy? That kind of thing. And he waited in line to get to the front of the line to tell me that I was wrong and that the rods were real. Like, dude, come on. You're still buying it? He's still selling it.

They call them Roswell rods, which is hilarious. They're implying that somehow or another they're alien. Yeah, probably some guy was at Roswell taking pictures trying to get UFOs and some bugs flew by. It wasn't even Roswell. That's what's funny. They're called Roswell rods. The best footage is from Mexico.

The best footage was from a bunch of cave jumpers. You know, they have that one really enormous cave, but it's a hole, essentially, a gigantic pit, and people skydive into it. You ever seen that? Yeah, I've seen things like that. It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild.

But they filmed, they set up a camera to watch them jump off the edge and parachute down, and you see the rods flying by. That was like the best footage was from Mexico, from this one place. So it had nothing to do with Roswell. They just called them Roswell rods because they're dorks. And then they had a shaft of sunlight in front of that so the bugs are flying through the sunlight with a dark background Which is something you don't normally see so it would have been like an unusually good environment for rods to to show up in exactly exactly and It's in that guy I mean waiting in line to get to the front of the line to ask me a question and tell me that you know He has the evidence. I need to see it. It's that kind of thinking it's once someone commits to an idea it's very difficult to shake them off of it and they just look for confirmation bias they just look for someone else to agree with them they find communities they find these

flat earth communities which is hilarious the flat one of the best one of the best fucking unintentional hilarious things I read online this dude wrote the flat earth society has members all around the globe. Whoops. Did he even realize what he was saying? Of course not. Or is that just him trolling? I hope it's him trolling. The community thing, I think, is a key thing.

I recently did a debunk of a UFO that the Chilean Navy supposedly saw. What was that? I'm not aware of that one. It was like this thing. It was a Chilean Navy helicopter that had this infrared camera, and they saw two black dots off in the distance

that looked like a weird thing, like a figure-eight type thing flying away, and then it started spraying out this stuff, and they couldn't figure out where it was, and they chased after it, but it was and they chased after it but it was too fast and it got away from them and the Chilean government has an official UFO investigation team and they they set them on it and they spent two years figuring out what it was and they couldn't figure out what it was and so they said it's a it's a confirmed unidentified object. And then they published their findings. And then I and some other people on Metabunk looked at it,

and we figured out it was actually just a plane flying away from the helicopter, leaving some contrails behind. And we actually figured out exactly which plane it was. And so this got a bit of play online, and it was on, like, Huffington Post and things like that. And some UFO enthusiasts started talking to me. And so this got a bit of play online, and I was on like Huffington Post and things like that. And some UFO enthusiasts started talking to me, and I joined their groups. And I joined a few of the groups. And then I found myself in this kind of weird corner of the Internet where everybody believes in UFOs unquestioningly.

And they're always putting up these photographs of things. and people are like, oh, great capture, dude. And it's just something like a street light or something. But they think they have this confirmation bias, this group confirmation bias, where they can't disagree with someone and they know they're in a safe space. So they can put out whatever theory that they like and they know that people will be

Like they're just very supportive of them. Yeah One that happened a couple of days ago Some woman put up a picture of a strange light That she said was in the sky and so I downloaded the picture and I boosted the brightness and I saw it was actually a reflection of Something in a security light on a porch and you could see it was like there was trees behind it and it's a security light and there's this reflection so i posted that and then i started getting called like uh a shill for pointing this out yeah there's a couple of

people like said oh yeah it's just this light but other people were like what the heck why don't you believe me why are you like invalidating like you know my claims right? And so they want to have these kind of little walled gardens where everybody believes the same thing. That's a good way to put it, the walled gardens. It really is a good way to put it because that is what those communities seemed like, and that's one of the things that I found when I did that television show. I still harbored a few conspiracy theories before I did that show, but doing that show for several months and constantly interviewing people who

believed in outlandish things, I found the same thing over and over and over again. Illogical people with very little evidence, believing things in almost a religious way. And I found it with Bigfoot and I found it with UFOs and I found it with chemtrails and I found it with, it was just one after the other in varying stages of ridiculousness. I feel like contrails and chemtrails were the most nutty people. UFO people seem to be the most reasonable because it's the most reasonable theory. Out of all of them, the idea that we have spaceships, why doesn't someone else have spaceships? There's hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe,

hundreds of billions of planets in each galaxy universe, hundreds of billions of planets in each galaxy, the odds of there being some sort of a life form out there, it's pretty high, but there's nothing. That's the craziest thing. Like the more I went into, the more I talked to these people, the more I went over all their evidence, air quotes evidence, the more I asked them why they believe things. There is nothing. There's not a goddamn thing that you can put on a scale. There's not a thing that you can weigh scale there's not a thing that you can weigh there's not a thing that you can measure there's not a thing that you can look at a photo and go wow that's compelling there's not one there's just an idea and that idea is that there's something in the sky that flies around that we you know

either might catch if you're there the right place the right time or not and that they're from another planet but yeah if you look at what they put forward as the best evidence, it's often like cases from the 60s where there's an eyewitness who said something, like there was some guy on a road who says he blacked out and his car got messed up. It's always that. From the 60s. Well, that's the other thing that I know too much about psychedelic drugs and I know about endogenous psychedelic drugs, the brain producing this chemical called dimethyltryptamine that

happens when you're sleeping. Now, they've proven that this stuff is produced in the liver and in the lungs. And they believe it's now, they've got evidence that it's produced in the pineal gland. It's a very potent psychedelic drug that your brain produces. And your brain produces it during REM sleep. So these people, they all take naps. And during these naps, they have these crazy fucking dreams. And it's entirely possible that during these dreams, what happened is they got some endogenous DMT dump, whether they were under stress,

or whether they just had just an erratic dump of this human neurochemical that entered into their bloodstream, whatever it is, it caused it. All these fucking UFO abductions all of them like almost exactly Happen at night and they happen while these people are sleeping like wouldn't you just assume that you were dreaming? Why why wouldn't you assume you were dreaming? Yeah? I have these I used to have these kind of night terror Hallucination things which are kind of like that yeah, and it was always the same type of thing It was like a giant spider. oh coming down from the ceiling towards me and i couldn't move i was like you know frozen for a second and then i then i would then i would jump out of bed and turn on the light and like look for the spider but it's happened all the time like and you know i knew

because there was no spider that it wasn't real but i could see if someone was having a different type of hallucination that seemed a bit more real and then you know it may be it's a it came in between sleep cycles for them then yeah tell it yeah you can see because it seemed completely real yeah i had i used to have them all the time and it was always like you know it was horrible it was this like giant really realistic spider and it wasn't like you know i was dreaming somewhere else i was in the room and i could see it like I was seeing something crawling across the table right here was this hallucination hmm I don't really get them anymore I don't know what it was

you know my brains fixed itself or whatever but well it's probably a lot has to do with being young and confused and hormones and nerves and and then also like your brain starts filling in the blanks you don't have a very good understanding of the universe you know your brain your filling in the blanks. If you don't have a very good understanding of the universe, you know, your brain, your imagination runs wild. It was very confusing to me doing that television show. And it really changed me a lot. And it changed me to the point that people started accusing me of being co-opted by the government,

that the government threatened my family and told me to stop talking about conspiracies. And then the idea that I wouldn't say that if that was the case like you don't think I would fucking tell everybody if someone Threatened my family because I was talking about UFOs. I'd be telling everybody I'd be like hey, man I would tell all my friends I'd be like dude they fucking threatened me because I was talking about UFOs this shit is real hangar 18 area 51 I think there was a paper a while ago published on like how many people it would take to cover up certain conspiracy theories. And the probability of none of those people ever talking.

Yeah. And it's just ridiculous. Like you can't have tens of millions of people in on a conspiracy. Well, the flat earth one is the best one for that. Yeah. Because what about all those people? All of science. Every single scientist yeah and everyone who is involved in shipping

routes and overseas flights and the fact that you can fly west and land east I mean you you can you can just land in one spot take off again land another spot and you could eventually get to the same spot that you're at with a bunch of different flights that you can track them on a GPS. That's fake, too, GPS. Oh, that's fake. Everything is fake. Yeah.

Well, one thing I want to try to introduce to people who believe in the flat Earth is this concept of ground truth. Now, ground truth is a concept in satellite observations, which I kind of touched on before. Like you take a satellite observation, and you see does it match what you see on the ground. Or if you've got something like a weather prediction model, like you're predicting the weather,

you see does that match what you see on the ground. And this is something that you can do if you're actually really interested in looking into the flat Earth theory, is figure out what the actual ground truth is for something. Now, I want to talk very briefly about a program called Stellarium, which you might have seen. It's just basically a solar system simulator. It shows what's in the night sky. You've probably seen these little things on your phone where you hold it up and it shows

you what the stars are. Yeah. It's like that for the PC. And you can use the one on your phone as well. So what I would encourage people to do is figure out, like, is this program actually correct? Is it actually showing me what we see in the night sky? And you can do it really easily.

You know, basically you just look at what's on the screen, and then you go outside and you look to see, is this what I'm seeing on the screen here? So this is basically you checking the ground truth of this program, which seems like a very straightforward thing. But then what you can do from that is you can then use the program to look at the sky from other positions. And because you verify that it's correct for where you are,

and you can ask someone else to verify it's correct for where they are, and you can check other photographs that have been taken to see if they match up as well you'll eventually build up you know the knowledge that this program is correct this stellarium program all the little program you have in your phone that shows you the stars in the sky so you've got this computer showing you what it expects to see from any position any position anywhere on the world and you by doing ground truth observations, have figured out what it actually is here. So that's the type of thing you see in Stellarium, obviously in a much less light polluted environment than you have here.

Do you think that a lot of what's going on with these people that are theorizing, keep that up, that's a pretty cool look at, with a lot of what's going on with these people theorizing about flat earth, and there seems to be some desire that people have to expose hidden truths hidden hidden discoveries or things that are somehow or another being kept from everybody and the the what's what's fascinating to me is they're looking into this nonsense. They're looking into this thing that's not real. When the real space, like the actual, like what is observable about space is so mind-blowing. Yeah. And somehow or another, that is what you absolutely can see every day, what you absolutely can observe, what you absolutely can read about and learn about,

and what scientists are discovering on a daily basis is so mind-blowing. When you see, like, they don't believe satellites are real. When you see how many satellites we actually have, that's what's really fucked. It's not that there's no satellites. There's too many satellites. There's way too many. They can start bashing into each other, and then we'll have no more satellites. There's thousands of them up there, and they have to time space flights.

They have to time space flights based on whether or not they're going to hit these satellites, or space junk, or some of the stuff that's been ejected from various rocket trips. I mean, it's still floating up there. You've seen the movie Gravity? Yes. Yeah, there's been in that where the satellites start bumping into each other and it's this big chain reaction and eventually all the satellites get knocked out. Did you see that Japanese expedition that they tried to do?

They tried to capture space junk? Clean it up, yeah. Didn't work? Yeah, I don't know how well it worked. They had a big tether that they were dragging behind it. Yeah, they were trying to catch a bunch of space junk with a net, right? Yeah. Somehow or another. Yeah, it's amazing. This stuff is way more interesting than that.

That's the real stuff. That's really crazy. The flat Earth idea is this tiny little thing where the Earth is flat and we're stuck in this weird prison where people are keeping us here. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing, too, that somehow or another by being on a flat planet, it gives you a different perspective. They don't want you to have that perspective, so they tell you that the world is round. It doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, one thing I've heard is that they think that if they can convince you that the world is flat when it isn't, then it's kind of like in 1984 where they get people to believe that 2 plus 2 equals 5. And they actually indoctrinate people to genuinely believe that, even though they know it's not true, but they still believe it, and it's a way of mind control. So the same thing would have happened with the flat Earth, but on a far grander scale.

You're not just convincing someone that 2 plus 2 equals 5, and war equals peace, et cetera, et cetera. You're convincing them that the Earth is flat when it's actually round. So by twisting their minds around something that's demonstrably false and making them think that it's correct, then you're gaining power over their minds in the same way that they did in 1984. Right, well, in the same way that Scientologists do or Mormons do or anybody that creates some sort of an ideology that's provably false.

I mean, look, there's not a whole lot of difference between Scientology and Flat Earth Theory. I mean, there really isn't. I mean, if you really read L. Ron Hubbard's work, if you read what his actual theories were about the origins of mankind, it's pretty fucking loony. And yet there's thousands and thousands of members of Scientology to the point where, you know,

they're making documentaries about it and writing books about it, and these people are coming out, and they've escaped the church and these harrowing stories. I mean, I had this guy on my podcast a couple of weeks ago, Ron Miscavige, David Miscavige's dad. I was like, what in the fuck? This guy's been, wasted his life. Guy lived in the Scientology world for 50 years. I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy. It is. It is. There's not much difference between that and flat earth theory. It really isn't. You know, Scientology works, but it's like, uh, gradually sucks you in a bit at a time. You know, it just sounds all very reasonable at the start. Very

self-help in the beginning, more and more like the further that you get into it. Well, also the, the reverse, the first original principles of it. Like when you start, we start, you know, thinking positive and doing positive things. There's a lot of benefits to that and people start seeing those benefits they start feeling positive and then they get into the thetans and the you know frozen souls chucked into the volcano and they're like what well I think you could argue that there's some good in the flat earth not the flat earth theory as such but the the flat earth way of thinking like questioning things mmm and I think this is something that people really like Not the Flat Earth theory as such, but the Flat Earth way of thinking, like questioning

things. And I think this is something that people really like about it, is that you don't believe scientists just because scientists say something. It's this thing they call the Zetetic method, which basically is a Greek word meaning questioning. So you've got to question everything. You can't believe that gravity exists or that planets go around the sun just because scientists do it. You actually have to observe it for yourself.

And if you can't observe it for yourself, then it isn't real, which leads people to think the Earth is flat because it kind of appears flat from various positions. And they haven't been into space or they haven't done the various experiments that show that it's not flat. Right. And they haven't been into space or they haven't done the various experiments that show that it's not flat. So I think you've got young people who are exposed to the idea of zeteticism and they

think, oh, that's great. You know, I'm rebelling against authority like young people do. And they think like, I will not believe the scientist. I'll do my own research. But then they get sucked into people like debate who feed them all this nonsense This is very articulate very smooth the way he talks and he makes his well edited videos and they're very compelling And because he's not an authority. He's not like, you know part of the government. He's right of the the the alt Culture. Hmm. They tend to give his arguments way more weight than mainstream science.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they'll find out something like that New York Times article that was out a couple months back where it showed that scientists from the 1950s were paid off by sugar companies to switch the blame to saturated fat. And they started attributing all these health problems that were really about sugar and about eating processed sugar and sort of attribute them to saturated fat.

And it changed a lot of people's diets and really fucked a lot of people up in terms of like people start eating margarine and all these things that are filled with trans fats and very unhealthy for you. And they did it because they thought that they were, you know, following science. And so questioning science and questioning scientists, occasionally you're right. Occasionally you'll find something like this conspiracy by the sugar industry. There's the old saying, trust yet verify. Reagan popularized that with the salt talks, I think it was. Yeah. That's a very good statement. Trust yet verify.

Trust yet verify. And if you want to trust Eric DeBay, that's fine, but check the things that he says. I checked one of his things on the way here on the plane. He has a thing that a lot of them say, which is that the horizon always rises to eye level. So on the plane on the way here, I checked to see if it was actually correct. Now, most people, when they check to see if the horizon rises to eye level, they just look out the window and they say, oh yeah, there's the horizon over there. It's at eye level. But on a round earth, the horizon is actually going down

a little bit when you look out the window of a plane because you're 30,000 feet up in the air. It actually drops around two or three degrees. But it's very hard to see when you're just looking out of the window of the plane. So it's very easy to get taken into believing that it stays at eye level. So what I did is I took this little carpenter's level.

You brought a carpenter's level? A carpenter's level, a very small one. It's only like eight inches long or so. And I've taped a small tube to the top, which is like a bit of a pen. And then I set it level and wedged it so it was level. And then I looked through the tube on the top of this level and saw where the horizon was and the horizon was just below the end of the level so the horizon

had actually dropped away which meant that DeBay's claim about the horizon rising to eye level which is something you'd expect on a flat earth was actually incorrect and it's demonstrably incorrect with this you know two dollar level which I actually got free from somewhere. And anyone can do this. You don't even need to be in a plane. In fact, it works better if you're just like on a cliff or something like 1,000 feet up. Well, that's another claim that people keep saying that are devotees of this flat earth idea that if you get on a plane and you look up and you look out the window, it looks flat. plane and you look up and you look out the window, it looks flat. But I do not think that people understand perspective and they do not understand how huge the earth is. When you see there's images, someone did an image that showed how far you are up when you're 30,000 feet in the air.

And then how, how like huge the earth actually is. And you get this like little image of a plane at 30,000 feet. And then the dot of the plane is represented and the amount of distance between the Earth is in perspective. And then you see how enormous the planet is. And it's just, you're dealing with something that's so big. It's almost, I mean, it feels like it's flat. It feels like it's flat because it's enormous and you're tiny. Yeah, that's a huge issue with people is that they don't really understand the scale of the planet.

And they don't understand how little it actually curves. Yeah. There's a road. If you look up like the longest roads in America, longest straight road in America, there's this road. It's in like Oklahoma or somewhere. And it's about, it's like 80 miles long, and it's just perfectly straight. But it actually isn't perfectly straight, because when they laid it out, they laid it out along a line of latitude. So it's one of the lines that goes around, around the Earth. So it's actually

slightly curved. But when you look at it, it looks perfectly straight. You have to actually like, you know, take the whole image and then draw a line from one end to the other in Google Earth, and you see that it deviates by just this tiny little amount. But if you were to drive along this road, you're actually turning right slightly the whole time, but it looks perfectly straight because it's hardly moving at all. Over these 80 miles, it moves maybe like 10 feet or something.

straight because it's hardly moving at all. Over this 80 miles, it moves maybe like 10 feet or something. And people just don't realize just how small the curve of the earth actually is. It looks flat. And again, I think a real big problem with this theory and with a lot of these theories, a lot of these really outlandish conspiracy theories is once they hook you, it's very difficult to unhook yourself. You don't want to believe that you got taken. You don't want to believe you've been had. You don't want to believe you've been fooled. So you keep going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole

and you keep finding more and more confirmation bias, more people inside that walled garden, as you put it. Yeah. And some people actually go out and do scientific experiments and they try reasonably hard uh some of them but then they make some kind of mistake uh and then they they say this is actual proof that the earth is flat like those the level experiment that i did someone did something similar with that they said they use like a water level where you have two tubes connected and use the level of the water because the water's level is the same on both of them and then they hold this up and see if it was below the horizon. But they did this experiment, and they did it at sea level,

which meant it's always going to be exactly the same as the horizon. You've actually got to go up 1,000 feet before you can see anything. But they still, even though they thought that they were doing some science, but they made this one key mistake, and then they weren't listening to anybody trying to tell them what the mistake actually was people are there's a ridiculous amount of people doing flat earth experiments on youtube and just getting it completely wrong i think the most common one is people taking photographs of something that they think shouldn't be visible from a certain position.

They'll say, here's Catalina Island, and it's 60 miles away. And according to the curvature of the Earth, that means it should be below five miles of curve, and so it shouldn't be visible. And then there's all these mistakes that they make. Some of them are like, they do the math wrong. Some of them, they don't account for the fact that you've got a you know uh uh factor in how high the viewer is or some of them will just they'll get entirely the wrong island like they'll say like oh this is this island which is like 100 miles away and they're actually looking at something that's 40 miles away well how come you can look out in the i mean here's a simple one how can you look out across

the ocean you don't see anything on the other side yeah like what's over there well so far away that you can't see it they got an out there they're gonna out there because the you wouldn't be I see anything away because of the atmosphere so thick you can be able to see through it things get further away they get fainter and fainter islands that they believe in the atmosphere they do and they use it a lot to to make up for reasons for certain things like like things going below the horizon that's where it gets weird right is that people use some science to try to debunk science or things that they claim a science like The law of perspective yeah, I the law perspective isn't doesn't exist. There's no law of perspective I mean if you were to make a law of perspective you could say that the size of something

Decreases in virtually proportional to its distance So if it gets twice as far away, it's half the size. If it gets four times as far away, it's a quarter of the size. And that's it. And that's all that perspective is. Now, people talk about vanishing points. Well, that came up during the podcast with Eddie Bravo.

Yeah. And Jamie brought it up, and then Eddie started posting pictures on his Instagram of a guy from the early 1900s who was an artist who wrote something about the law of perspective in drawing, just drawing. He was just explaining how you define perspective when you're illustrating things. That's the law of perspective on a piece of paper or on a photograph. It's nothing at all to do with the real world.

It's about what you can see visually, what the image is projected onto your eyes, or what comes through a camera when you take a picture. What's the actual perspective of things? Things just get smaller. But it sounds good when you say the law of perspective. It does. It sounds good, like you're invoking a law, a scientific law. But then they will discover a real law, like the law of universal gravitation.

Yeah. I just, again, here's the thing. I don't have anything against Eric Dupay or any of these people. I really don't. My real concern is with young people out there that are listening to this that get sucked into this stupid shit. And there's so much that you could learn. There's so much that's fascinating about the universe. There's so much fascinating about the natural world. There's so much to learn

and to waste any time. The only thing that's good about it is you'll recognize the pitfalls that the human mind can slip into, that I've slipped into, that many people I know have slipped into. And again, it's not a, it's not a, like in any way, shape or form, it's not something to be embarrassed about or sad about. It's just, it's a normal, natural human inclination to try to find things that are hidden truths or you know that are covered up mysteries it's natural for whatever reason I think it's very much a part of growing up and I think it's just it's different for different people yeah I had a whole bunch of crazy

ideas when I was growing up would you? I thought I could bring about world peace by getting a whole bunch of world leaders together. And I actually sent letters to a bunch of world leaders. And I figured, like, I shouldn't send it directly to the world leaders because it would be a bit, you know, they wouldn't read my letters. So I sent it to their brothers. So I sent a letter to Raul Castro, who is now the president of Cuba. Wow.

But back then I thought, I can set up this organization of the relatives of world leaders and bring about world peace. Now, I was like 13 at the time. It's funny that you decided to get a hold of their brothers. That's kind of hilarious. Yeah. Well, I figured like... Yeah. Sneaky backdoor move. Yeah. And I found his address in Who's Who in the library. Oh. I don't know.

Back in the day. Back in the day when you'd look things up in the library. Yeah, I mean, that's not even that unreasonable. That's like you thinking, well, world peace seems to make sense to me. Yeah, this idealistic child. Yeah. And, you know, you want to try to do something, and you think you can make a difference,

and so you're kind of rebelling against things. Yeah. I had delusions of solving great mathematical problems when I was young. There was problems like how do you trisect an angle by this geometrical method, which was proved to be impossible to do. And yet I still spent months and months trying to do it when I was a kid because I thought, they can't tell me what's impossible and what's not possible It seems like it's possible to me and if you did discover it what a gigantic Feather in your cat that would have been that was the motivation really yeah, it wasn't just like pure altruism

I wanted to I believed in a bunch of stupid shit and the big one for me that I've clung to longest is Bigfoot That what that one man, oh, it's so hard for me to let that one go. Because, well, first of all, because it used to be an animal. It used to be Gigantopithecus. But man, when my friend Les Stroud actually started doing that show, that Bigfoot show, have you ever seen that show? I don't think so. He did that show with some fucking guy who's just a total hoaxer. And the guy put on a Bigfoot mask and they got this high resolution photo and video of this Bigfoot mask that they're claiming is Bigfoot just staring at

them through the woods. It is so stupid looking. See if you can find it, Jamie. And this guy, this is how wacky this guy is. The Bigfoot community thinks he's full of shit. That's when you know you fucked up. When the Bigfoot community is calling shenanigans. They're like, this guy, I'm not buying this. It's funny, you get these schisms in these communities, and they fracture off into sub-communities. Yeah.

You know, the Scientologists, there are people who have fractured it off from the Scientologists. Watch this. This is awesome. See, this guy's in the woods, and he sees it. He sees it. It's through the trees. What is it?

Where is it? And he can't. It's not even moving. Meanwhile, Bigfoot has just been running from people from day one, right? But there's one animal that's just standing there, and he's like, God, I think I see it. I think I see it. So then towards the end of the video, he gets really close.

Like, look at that. Get the fuck out of here. He's got like an afro from the 1970s. He's like, look how clean its hair looks. I mean, it looks so dumb. It's got like an afro from the 1970s like look how clean its hair looks I mean it looks so dumb. It's not moving. No he gets close up on it look at that Doesn't it wink or something? Yeah, here it is. Look look how bad this is look how bad this is Here's the here's how you know it's fake whenever something looks like a dude in a monkey suit It's a dude in a monkey suit, it's a dude in a monkey suit. That's all you need to know because your brain knows. Your brain's like, hey, wait a

minute. Like if you look at a gorilla, a gorilla doesn't look like a person in a gorilla suit. If you look at a giraffe, it does not look like a person in a giraffe suit. If you look at Bigfoot and it looks like a dude in a monkey suit, it's a fucking dude in a monkey suit. Like your brain starts filling in the blanks. And also whether you recognize it or not your brain recognize Recognizes geometry facial geometry recognizes a Fibonacci sequence hardwired Yeah, and you see that's why people freak out when you see someone with fake lips or a fake nose upside down When people do weird shit to their face like when someone

Gets plastic surgery in the face and they like radically alter their face like when someone gets plastic surgery in the face and they like radically alter their face it's jarring to us and one of the reasons why it's jarring is because the brain recognizes geometry and human facial recognition or your facial patterns and the structure of the face and when that geometry is off it's confusing to us like why are their cheeks so big why is that nose so small why are the lips so big like what the fuck is going on like your your body starts? You know you react to it. Yeah, there's an illusion where they put two sets of eyes on people Yes, and you look at that and you just your brain just is constantly resetting and you know my eyes across the way of another

Not and I yeah, your brain's just so hardwired to recognize faces. Yes, it just automatically Recognize faces and and your face and my face are different But there's a science to you or the structure of your face that's applied to the science of my face And that's the golden ratio I mean if you if you look at a person's face you can actually do the math where their chin is where their eyes are it all lines up and Your brain recognizes when that's not the case so if you see that and you see like oh, it's a person What the fuck's going on because it is a person that's a person that's a dude in a monkey suit

It's not even a good one, and there's so many people that trot out that Patterson footage Which is so bad yeah, they believe so hard they believe so hard And it's it was the hardest one for me to realize that those people are all full of shit Because when I was a kid man, I don't want a Bigfoot to be real That was that was a tough one tough on let go And plus it was a real animal at one point in time There was really a thing called giant anapithecus which was an eight to ten foot tall Racket angster yeah, if it may have been bipedal at least occasionally yeah, yeah

Yeah, it's uh yeah, you want things to be true like ufos i was i was kind of into ufos and all kinds of weird stuff when i was younger and i think partly like you know me figuring out that a lot of it was just bullshit was part of the my motivation for getting into like debunking stuff later but to a certain degree i think there's like no harm in people believing in things like you know little kids believe in santa claus etc that type of things right the christmas the easter bunny uh it's just that for some people it kind of goes a bit wrong goes a bit too far they don't like let their childish beliefs drop away as they get older or they stay longer or when they you know come of age they they go on to that kind of

the next level of disbelief of imaginary things that they want to be true. And a lot of that boils down to what we were talking about earlier, the distrust in authority, like people, you know, and distrust of others, and the belief that there's some secret cabal of people doing things to them. The Illuminati. Yeah. So I think it's partly this kind of a natural childish wanting to believe in things which we all have Yeah

We all believed strange things when we were young and I think that aliens in a lot of ways are like a cosmic daddy The idea that there's someone who's really on the ball. That's watching us and you're gonna make sure we don't fuck everything up That's what this contact movies are so popular just the idea of, aliens coming to help us or whatever is so enticing. It'd be so amazing. Yeah. Meanwhile, I think the movie Alien is probably more likely what's going to happen. Just come down here and fuck us up. The weird thing about the UFO community and the Bigfoot community and all these different communities is that along the line, they become people that make a living at it.

And they become, you know a living at it and they become you know air quotes experts and that that becomes a problem because then they have a vested interest in making sure that other people believe they start writing books they start doing lectures they start showing pictures and also here's what's interesting as the number of phones that have cameras have radically increased the number of usable UFO pictures has radically decreased, which doesn't really make sense. Cameras like this one, it's got 83 times zoom on it. You can take pictures of, if there was a UFO, you could take a real close-up picture of it. I take pictures of planes all the time that are flying 5 miles away or 10 miles away,

or sometimes even over 100 miles away, and you can make out the plane. Do you see the windows? Yeah, depending on the angle. That's a claim that the chemtrails put out sometimes that the planes don't have windows, which is generally because they're using these crappy little cameras and you can't see the windows because they're less than one pixel wide. Right.

If you've got a good camera and you zoom in far enough, the windows appear, kind of like things appearing over the horizon when you zoom in right right but speaking of this the camera there's uh something coming up in august which is the the eclipse uh there's going to be a total eclipse of the sun over north america i think august 21st this year and i think that's that would be a great opportunity for people to encourage anybody who believes in the flat earth to actually start looking at what's going on. Don't they have an excuse for that, though? Yeah, but how are they going to justify it if they actually look at it?

I think the challenge is getting people to look at things. The excuse, well, not the excuse, the reason we're giving them is that there's an eclipse. And everybody wants to look at the eclipse because it's an amazing thing. The moon goes in front of the sun and blocks it out. Yeah, but I think that you're giving them too much credit. I think all someone has to do is make a YouTube video with some wonky explanation for why an eclipse works and that it works because the earth is a disk and the sun gets below the disk and it blocks it out from below. I mean, it just doesn't seem to me that it's enough.

This is like a solar eclipse, though. I understand. They can tell that the moon is going in front of the sun. Well, I know what you're saying is logical. But even the flat earthers believe that the moon goes in front of the sun for a solar eclipse. Oh, they do? Yeah, because you can track the position of the moon through the sky and they know that

it gets closer to the sun every time. Don't they believe that the earth sits flat and that everything spins around the earth? Isn't that the Earth? They do. Well, yeah. The Earth is flat and the Sun and the Moon are orbiting above like this. But sometimes the Moon is going to be below the Sun and it blocks out the light of the Sun. And that's how an eclipse happens on the flat Earth and on the round Earth. So it would be an amazing thing to see, even if you're a Flat Earth believer, this very rare coincidence when the moon is in front of the sun.

So you should encourage people who are Flat Earth believers to look at this amazing thing that's happening. They still don't give a fuck. Is there uniformity in the Flat Earth community? Are they all greed, or is there dissension? Some people say it's because of the ice wall like dissension there's some people say you know that it's because they're the ice wall no there's no fucking ice wall it's just a drop-off and this everybody dies there is kind of like you know this mainstream thing

where you know the debate model of things it's kind of like in the chem trail community you know you've got this one guy Dane Wigington who's this really popular guy and then you've got like a bunch of other people. Which one is he? Is he the guy that made the videos? No, that was Michael J. Murphy was the guy that made the videos. That guy was a little loony. And Wigington is the guy who lives in a big house on 200 acres up in the mountains somewhere. And he got obsessed with solar panels being blocked by contrails and so became a chem

trail believer but he he's like the equivalent of debate really because he's the guy who's really promoting it uh but then there's other people in the chem trail community who are uh doing their own thing and they say this you know wickington guy is full of crap because he believes in global warming and we don't so there's this there's this division between people who believe in global warming and who don't so there's some people who think that chemtrails are trying to stop global warming and other people think that chemtrails are causing global warming and then there's other people who think that chemtrails are something completely different there's spreading nano robots to control people's minds and things like that so you've got the same type of range of things in

the flat earth believers as well like you some people think that got the same type of range of things in the flat earth, believers, as well. Some people think that the earth is kind of concave. It's not actually flat at all. What about the hollow earth people? Some people think the earth is hollow. That's not really a flat earth thing. That's like a round earth with a hole in the top. And a whole new world in there. People live on the inside of the earth, which makes even less sense than the flat earth from a physical point of view. Well, they think there's monsters in there. Yeah. Or there's aliens, the Rothschilds.

They think they're lizard people. They live under the earth. Yeah. They shoot lasers. They make tunnels. You've heard that? Yeah. I've heard of that.

Sounds real. I'm looking into it. Any conspiracy theory is going to have a range of plausibility. Yeah. From reasonably plausible to completely implausible. Like you think of some of the 9-11 conspiracy theories. Like at one end you've got like the World Trade Center was destroyed by nuclear bombs that were in the basement. Nuclear bombs?

Nuclear bombs. People think that? Yeah. I haven't heard that one. It's a fringe one, no it's uh it's a fringe one but it's you know there's got a few people who believe it then there's people who think a bit a bit more plausible they were destroyed by energy weapons from space like there was these beams of energy like high-powered microwaves or something that blew the buildings up

and then there's you know you get more and more plausible. There was pre-planted explosives, or some guys ran in there on the day with some explosives to blow up Building 7, and then you've got just they let Building 7 burn when they didn't have to, and then they knew it was going to happen, but they did nothing about it, and then they had some warnings about it, and they didn't do anything about it. So you've got this whole range of plausibilities for the conspiracies with the flat earth it's pretty much all of this end because like the flatter theory is either the earth is flat or it's round so with the flatter view you've only got very extreme and then more extreme theories some of them the most extreme thing which

we all conspiracy theories end up with is the everything is an illusion we are living in the matrix conspiracy theory well that theory is very compelling that that theory is very bizarre because one day if technology continues the way it has been there will come a time where they're able to create an artificial reality that's indiscernible from this reality. As long as we don't blow ourselves up and technology continues to advance, innovation continues to advance at the rate it is now, which is exponential, right?

It's entirely possible that 100 years from now or whatever it is, there'll be some way that they can interface somehow your somehow with your brain and create some sort of an artificial experience right that's not outside the realm of us the conspiracy theory is that they're doing it now and it's detectable that these things that we are seeing are kind of artifacts or that's one living living in the matrix you might have heard of the the Mandela effect yes that's you know that's people who believe that this kind of glitches in the matrix like the berenstein bears yeah berenstein bears are actually called the bearstein bears

yeah uh in an altered timeline or there was this movie uh called shazam uh done by i can't remember that guy's name now yeah people say sinbad yeah but it was shack was in sin bad yeah yeah yeah yeah they complete they completely believe that this actually happened yeah and that's just but that is yes but they believe it so that's right something that's at the end of all all these conspiracy theories that's not a very reasonable one but there's some really reasonable scientists that believe that there's going to come a time where the Elon... Elon Musk. Yes.

He believes it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not really convinced myself because it's kind of a simplistic argument saying that, you know, technology will always advance and get better. There are fundamental limits on information theory, like how much information that we can process. Have you ever messed around with HTC Vive or any of the more recent state-of-the-art? No. They're mind-blowing. Yeah.

Mind-blowing. And this is one of the reasons why I subscribe to it. I mean, not today, but, I mean, I think one day in the future, whether it's 100 years or whatever it is of technology. I mean, you just got to think, 150 years ago they were using teletypes. That was the only way to get a message across, you know? And then what can we do today? We can take a film and it to someone in australia they get it in real time i think it's it's very

reasonable to assume that if you put on the htc vive they have this one underwater experience it's amazing jamie see if you can find it because i know it's in video form but i think it's reasonable to put it on there's going to be extremely realistic things that make you think that you are there yes but i don't think it's realistic that you there's gonna be extremely realistic things that make you think that you are there Yes But I don't think it's realistic that you would be able to not detect that and that scientists wouldn't be able to detect That that we are all living in a simulation. I mean is this simulation just just you is it just your head? See this right here. This is you put this thing on. I mean again. Yeah, we're in 2017 and this is all and it's fairly

fairly adolescent stage. And man, when you're, when you're in this thing and you're looking around, it's not necessarily high definition. It's, it's, it's very clear. Um, and you know that it's not real, but God, it gives you this feeling that it's real. Then a whale pulls up and all these fish swim by. It's, it's amazing. And it more than anything, it gives you this feeling that it's real. Then a whale pulls up and all these fish swim by. It's amazing. And more than anything, it gives you a window into the future. It gives you a window when you sit next to this whale and it makes noises and the noises are all 3D. It gives you a window when you start thinking about Pong. Remember Pong, the game that you'd play?

It was like, I can't believe I'm controlling something on the television. And then you compare that to like Halo and the games that you can play right now on an Xbox. You're like, my God. Like, the improvements are radical. And I think that the improvements in this sort of artificial reality, this virtual reality that you're seeing in this current HTC Vive 100 years from now now I would only imagine that we could get to a point where it's indiscernible that somebody I just connects you really that's great why look at that whale there and that whale is you know living thing it's made up of cells mm-hmm you could take one cell from that whale and

you could put it under a microscope and you could dissect it and you can look at the cell and everything that's in it okay we're having a different argument here I'm thinking that it's going to feel real yeah you're saying scientists won't agree I believe I believe you won't be able you will be able to I don't believe that they can make something that you could not detect not let's act with science cripple the cripple your intelligence so they'll be able to make something that's indiscernible like while you're experiencing it it's but you would a scientist could come along

and check it it's a bit of a philosophical question though because like you know what we have now is our observable universe with the laws of physics I don't think within this universe you can make something that simulates the universe that's the same right because there's just too much information in the universe to be assimilated by something that simulates the universe that's the same. Right. Because there's just too much information in the universe to be simulated by something that is within the universe, or even something as small as the Earth. I don't think you could simulate the entire Earth in our physical universe. Not now, but you don't think you could do it 1,000 years from now?

No. Really? I don't think so. I think there are fundamental limits as to how much information will be required. Really, I think so. I think there are there are fundamental limits as to how much information will be required you could get something that's a Imitation of that, but it would be detectably different It's like each each simulation is going to be lower fidelity than the universe that created it Right, so you can only create something that's less complex than the universe you're currently in. Is that true, though?

I mean, as time moves on, 5,000 years from now, whatever it is, I mean, how could anyone possibly discern or how could you even guess and estimate how far it would advance? You go back 5,000 years ago, people were modern humans. You know, I mean, the people that built the pyramids were modern humans, right? They looked like us, maybe a little smaller. They didn't get as much to eat. They look just like us if you went 5,000 years in the future It's not it's not unreasonable if we don't blow ourselves up that you would that we would have some sort of quantum computing some astronomically powerful devices that could render and

Create an artificial reality that felt to you entirely real I don't think that's outside the realm of possibility but could you then create within that universe the same quantum computers that are simulating itself so I think you could I think that that would that's kind of a paradox really it has it as powerful as the thing that is simulating it I don't think so I think artificial intelligence is gonna lead us to well if you can create something that's artificially intelligent right which we feel like is gonna happen way quicker than 5,000 years from now if you create something that's artificially

intelligent it's going to improve upon its design almost instantaneously it's going to realize like if you give it autonomy yeah we don't know what's gonna happen right quantum computers we don't know right well they're gonna work that could be like could be a dud or it could be fucking amazing could be fucking amazing. Yeah, who knows it's it's it's something to think about but when When scientists start thinking that we are currently living in some sort of a computer simulation I don't discard it. I give it a pause I mean I don't I don't subscribe or not subscribe to something as ridiculous as that because it seems to me within the realm of future possibility.

Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, it's a thought experiment because, like, if we are in a simulation, we're not going to figure it out. Right. We're not going to be able to do anything about it if we do figure it out. Right, right, right. Yeah, thought experiment.

I mean, scientists are looking at the laws of physics. If they keep drilling down far and far enough, maybe eventually they'll discover like there's some kind of artificial substrate of the universe which is all ones and zeros and that we are actually

living in some kind of simulation. But that's just basically us resolving the laws of physics more. Yeah. If we get down that deep, what can we,

we can't do anything about it. Well, not only that, does that actually mean that we are living in some sort of an artificial realm or does it mean that that's what the universe is made of it's not artificial but that the universe much like what we're creating like that the universe is almost fractal and much like

what we're creating when we're creating these artificial environments that the universe itself is made out of ones and zeros and that this whole thing is really mathematical yeah and that just because we haven't been able to detect it up until now doesn't mean it hasn't been running on some sort of some sort of a uber complicated mathematical principle yeah I think it's kind of a moot point in a way because like what's important is what are the laws of physics and you know can we is can we detect what's actually running the laws of physics? Yeah, so yeah, it's it's a philosophical question It's a little bit of mental masturbating

Yeah, it seems to me that that's the thing that people do and I think we could bring it back to this flat earth thing is that people love to go down these honey holes of of Information and of debate and ideas and whether it's bigfoot or ufos we love to chase ourselves chase our own tail when it comes to these bizarre subjects that that may or may not be real and most likely aren't real we love to chase and become like engrossed in these things and i wonder why we're doing it i wonder if we're distracting ourselves you know i mean it doesn't seem to be people that are fully happy with their life that really get into this kind of stuff, that really go all in and balls deep. You don't get a guy who has like a promising career.

He's at the top of his field, a happy family, great friends, great hobbies, loves his life, and then it just becomes a UFO nut. It doesn't seem to be the case. It used to be. Well, you've got these pool players who believe. They're not doing so good. It's hard out there for a pool player right now. The guys are the top of the game, isn't they? I think those guys just watch too many fucking YouTube videos and they don't have any science.

Most pool players, one of the things about, what's that common expression about pool players? If someone plays pool really well, it's the glorious results of a misspent youth. Because it takes a long time to learn how to play pool really well. And you're not going to be doing that while you've got your nose buried in physics books. I think people like things like the flytrap. They get things out of them. They're getting something out of it. It's giving them purpose in their life.

It's kind of like a hobby in a way. You're just doing something because you enjoy doing it, like playing chess. Except along with that hobby of doing stuff, they actually have a belief that is required for them to actually do their hobby. And they don't obviously think of it like that, but that's essentially what it is. They have this activity they like doing, like gardening or whatever, but it requires them to believe that the earth is flat. doing like gardening or whatever but it requires them to believe that the earth is flat so they spend all their time like making youtube videos about how the earth is flat or doing their experiments about you know how the earth is flat and they're getting something out of it because it's their their little hobby yeah i i do the same thing except i'm actually doing it for science

like i do these fun little experiments like on the plane today, I was on the plane wedged up against the window, looking through this, holding my camera up against it, and the woman next to me thought I was this crazy guy. You should have told her, I'm proving that the Earth isn't flat, ma'am. She probably thought that I was thinking that the Earth was flat.

I've seen other people on YouTube, they're bringing levels onto the plane, and they're like, hey, look, the level isn't moving. Well, if you work all day and you have an eight hour day plus commute, plus family, plus whatever bills and issues that you have to deal with, and then you get into one of these YouTube videos, you simply don't have the time to really explore all of the possibilities and all the science behind all the arguments and it's just yeah i think what happens is either they you know they they get this superficial understanding of the

conspiracy theory yeah uh or their their actual real life suffers and a lot of people get sucked into conspiracy theories like like chemtrails or 9-11 truth, and they become socially isolated. And they get divorced, and they lose custody of their children. It happens all the time. Yeah, and this isn't like, you know, it's not like the government punishing them or anything like that.

It's just because they become obsessed with something that is outside of societal norms. And they feel like this overwhelming, compelling need to tell other people about it. Yeah. Yeah. And they, you know, they say, talk about, oh, yeah, people roll their eyes when I bring up the subject of chemtrails or the flat earth. And of course they do.

But from their point of view, they're trying to wake up other people. They're doing, they're doing like the Lord's work by giving the truth to people. But then there's some theories that are really compelling. Like when you look into Operation Northwoods and you find out that the government really was planning false flag attacks and it didn't work. That's exaggerated, I think. No, it's not. How's the exaggeration?

Well, it was a discussion document. It was signed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Yeah, it was rejected by Kennedy. Yeah, but it was rejected by Kennedy Very far it was just one document right they signed it though. They got it They didn't sign it that they wanted to do it But it was an idea the idea that you were gonna attack American civilians that you were gonna arm Cuban friendlies and attack Guantanamo Bay that you're gonna blow up a drone airliner These were all proposed things they were proposed things. Yeah, But it was just like, you know, but you can understand, I understand what you're saying, but spitballing

that you're going to deceive the American people and kill American civilians. And that this is a normal part of the way Nero burnt Rome, Hitler burned the Reichstag, that false flag attacks are real and that they have happened throughout history. So when you do have an open mind and you are compelled to try to seek the truth, you got to be aware that these things have happened in history, they are real and if you dismiss everything you'll be thought of as a shill as much as I mean as much as people who look for conspiracies and everything there are also people who try to dismiss everything and you have to be very careful because there are a lot of things that people do conspire to do.

Like one of the things that I've brought up before, and people hate when I talk about this, but I'm going to do it again. People say, I don't believe in conspiracies. And I say, you don't believe in any conspiracies? No. Okay, do you believe 9-11 happened? Do you believe that people flew jet planes into buildings? Well, then you believe in conspiracies. Because someone conspired to do that, and they did it.

They pulled it off. A bunch of people got together, decided they were going to attack. They flew a plane into the Pentagon. They flew two planes into the World Trade Center towers. I mean, that really happened. So that's a conspiracy, and they pulled it off. So when you debunk all these things that are absolutely false, like flat earth and chemtrails

and UFOs and all that jazz, you got to be careful to not try to debunk everything. No, I get what you're saying. I just think, I personally just feel the Northwoods thing is a bit overblown. I don't think it is at all.

As to what it was. I think it speaks volumes about what the mindset of the Joint Chiefs of Staff were. It's one example. It's a good one, though. Yeah, but they didn't come up with any others. What about what got us into Vietnam?

Gulf of Tonkin. Yeah, that was a false flag. Well, that's debatable, too, because that was just basically they thought that they were being attacked. Is that debatable? Yeah. I think that's pretty much been agreed upon, that that was a false flag. It was a series of events.

That didn't happen. Over two nights, there was reports of the boats being fired upon, and it turns out there probably wasn't anything there. Right. So what's debatable is, did they think there was something there? Or did they want there to be something there? Or did they completely invent it out of thin air right now they probably used it as a pretext to uh to uh you know start the vietnam war uh but they just took advantage of it like in the same way the bush took advantage of the 9-11 attacks to push

his agenda now is that a conspiracy it's hard to say like what knowledge did bush have of the 9-11 attacks to push his agenda. Now, is that a conspiracy? It's hard to say. Like, what knowledge did Bush have of the 9-11 attacks beforehand? We know he took advantage of it, and we know that, you know, the American administration back then took advantage of the Gulf of Tonkin reports. We don't know for sure

whether the Gulf of Tonkin reports were fabricated or how much they were fabricated or how much they were fabricated or what actually happened on that night. But we do know that they were taken advantage of. Yeah. Well, my whole point is that you have to be careful when you're a person who debunks things that are legitimately ridiculous. You have to take into consideration the possibility that people do conspire to do things.

Oh, totally they do. And obviously that's happened within pretty high levels of government. With Enron. I mean, there's been a ton of conspiracies that turned out to be true. Yeah. And there's what, the arms for Iran, the Iran-Contra scandal. Yes. That probably went all the way to the top.

Oh, yeah. Reagan probably knew all about that. That was where it was hilarious when it was when Reagan was showing the first signs of Alzheimer's when he didn't remember. He didn't remember anything. And people were like, oh, he's lying.

And then it turns out, no, he's actually, his memory is really eroding. I mean, he was an older man. I mean, he was in his late 70s at the time, wasn't he? Oh, yeah. He was Trump's age, I think. Jesus Christ. Trump, there was a fucking hilarious article about Trump today that he doesn't

believe in exercise because he believes that the body has a finite amount of energy in it. And then when you exercise, you use up that energy. And that's why he has so much energy because he doesn't exercise. I heard he has strange diets. Like he has his steaks well done and he likes to eat lunch meat straight out of the fridge. But it's neither here nor there. I'm sure he's a very nice guy. Are you? Never met the guy. Yeah, he doesn't look healthy, but he's got a lot of energy, man. Kind of amazing how much energy he has. Alex Jones. Yeah. Well, I don't know. He kind of looks reasonably healthy, I guess.

He's not healthy. No? No, Alex doesn't look that healthy. He's overweight, right? And he's younger than me. Like, I always used to freak out that he's younger than me. I was like, how are you younger than me? Like, he just goes hard.

Alex goes hard all the time. You know, and now... Takes a toll. Well, it's also, I mean, constantly worrying that the government's after you and that there's, you know, every fucking turn that you take has a conspiracy behind it. The mind, you know, can only take so much pressure. Yeah. Yeah. Should we talk about some more Flat Earth stuff?

Sure. Why don't you go out there? You got notes. I do. I wrote down everything I could think of on the flat Earth, which is a shitload of stuff. The International Space Station. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

They think that that footage is fake. They think it's all fake. Yeah, it's hilarious. But what you can do is you can go back to the Skylab footage and ask someone who lives in the flat Earth how they faked the Skylab footage. Because there's footage of Skylab with people like, you know, they're running running around in circles in zero gravity there's long sequences of people doing stuff in zero gravity and it's in a space that's actually too big to fit in any any plane that's ever been built so it couldn't be filmed in a thing you know where they do the vomit comet yeah it has to be something that was actually zero gravity yeah for people don't know what that is when when you

see scenes in movies where someone was moving in zero gravity they would film that in a plane that would literally be they would get the plane up to like 40 000 feet or whatever and then they would just literally shoot down so that you're kind of going faster down than gravity and you could float around and so this they're in zero gravity here yeah float around in it. So this, there's zero gravity here. Yeah. Running around in circles. They do all kinds of stuff like that. You get three of them running, and the space that they're in there is so big

that it wouldn't fit in. Like, it probably wouldn't even fit in the beluga thing that they use for transporting planes. Well, that brings us back to Area 51 because there's some giant airplanes that they make out of Area 51 that they use to simulate zero gravity. Yeah, I mean,

it's obvious that this is in space. Yeah, and this is like from the 70s. Yeah. Pretty amazing. The space station, the International Space Station,

it flies over at regular intervals. And this is one of the ground truth things that I was talking about earlier. You can see it. You can look up when it's going to fly over.

You can get them to send you alerts. There's a site called Spot the Station. It's a NASA site. But you don't have to trust it but you can still sign up and it will tell you when the space station is going to fly over to the second it'll tell you to the second when it's going to appear and how high it will be and how long it'll be visible for and you can get to send you an email and then get your camera out and take photographs of it when it when it happens so you know that this website is, like you've proven it on the ground.

And you can also do it from different positions and get two people doing it. And you can figure out how high the space station is by triangulating it. So, yeah, what's this angle? What's that angle? How far apart they are? And you can figure out that the space station is actually 250 miles high. It is actually orbiting the Earth at 250 miles. And you can also take photographs of the space station is actually 250 miles high. It is actually orbiting the Earth at 250 miles. And you can also take photographs of the space station with this camera, and you can zoom in close enough on the space station to actually see the shape of the space station

and the solar panels and the main modules and everything. So you can see there actually is something that is moving along the same path that NASA says is moving along, and at the same speed as they suggest, and it's at the right height, and it's the right size, because you can do the calculations on the camera and figure out what the size of the space station is. So we know that something that the exact same size and shape and speed of the space station is exactly where NASA says it is. And there's

really no way you could fake that on a flat earth because you'd have to have this bizarre, you know, thousand foot wide floating thing moving along at like 14,000 miles an hour doing this kind of whizzy pattern all around this spirograph pattern around the Flat Earth it's just you know it's literally impossible whereas if you look at it from the globe model point of view it's just the space station obviously it's orbiting the globe but does this bother you sometimes you're even debunking the stuff do you it does it does I sometimes catch myself and go what the fuck am i doing yeah it's obvious like yeah one of the like most stupidly obvious proofs that we're not on the flat Earth is that if you get three people,

you stand one of them at the bottom of South Africa, one of them at the bottom of South America, one of them in Australia, and have them all look south from that position. Now, on the flat Earth, you've got one person here, one person here, one person here. And if they all look south, like away from the the north pole they're all looking in completely different directions but on the real world what do they actually see they all see the exact same constellation the southern cross right in front of them so they're all looking in different directions on the flat earth but on the round earth they're all just looking towards the Southern Cross. Right, I see what you're saying. It's literally impossible to do that on the flat earth.

Right, and you can actually see this and take photographs of the constellations and compare them. Yeah, and that's something I was talking about with the ground truth thing, with Stellarium. You could go virtually yourself to these places and see what the sky looks from that position. these places and see what the sky looks from that position. So either Stellarium is lying or the Southern Cross does actually appear from these three different positions. Well, that's another thing that these flat earth people keep bringing up is Polaris. The idea that this one star stays put and that all these other stars rotate around it and that this is somehow or another proof that the Earth's not spinning or that we're

on a flat Earth. What's so stupid about that is that people in Australia have a completely different constellation. That's right. And the stars rotate the other direction around. I mean, the stars are all coming towards us from the east. So if you look north, they're going that way. If you look south, they're going that way. So they're rotating around the north star, which actually isn't anything special. It's just the star that happens to be closest to the point the north point and it changes all the time if you zoom in you can actually see there are stars that are even closer if you take a

time-lapse of the North Star it actually makes a little circle well and also that North Star is not the same North Star as in the past yeah because the axis of the earth there's this thing called precession where the every 26,000 years it wobbles. Wobbles away. Yeah. Yeah, the South, everyone's looking at the same thing in the South, and the stars are rotating in that direction.

But Polaris, Polaris is a good one for a number of reasons. One, it's not really fixed. It's one degree off from the center of the celestial sphere. But if you look at a time-lapse photograph of the Earth, if they point a camera up, like, say, from North America, what you get is the illusion that all these stars are spinning around, that one star is fixed. But it's because you're looking at a time-lapse of only a few hours

where it's dark out at night, whereas this precession of the equinoxes is a very slow process that takes 26,000 years, and you're just not going to get a 26,000-year time-lapse photo of the Earth. You could simulate it. Yeah, you could simulate it. In Stellarium. No one's going to believe that.

What's interesting is that some cultures, it's been pretty much observed that some cultures were aware of the precession of the equinoxes thousands of years ago somehow, that they kind of knew. That would be quite impressive. A lot of old cultures did actually take records of the stars because stars were used for navigation. The pole star, obviously, is something that gives you this fixed north degree.

But the other stars as well, like if you know how long it takes to go from one place to another, I don't really understand the exact maths, but you can use it for navigation. It's called celestial navigation. What other ridiculous things can we point out before we wrap this up? My head's starting to hurt.

I had food poisoning yesterday, folks. I don't know what happened. I ate something bad at a greasy diner. Well, Polaris is a good thing because you can actually look at the angle of Polaris. Was that a banging? Did you hear banging? I heard banging.

Might be the flat earthers coming together. Yeah. I'll go check. Oh, it's next door. He is putting something on the wall, it sounds like. Yeah, they shut down the stream twice on us already. Oh, really? Yeah. It's flat earth flatter i'm recording the whole thing god damn it uh um what other things are ridiculous the some of the flavors wonder why the earth's atmosphere

isn't sucked off into space ah well how about the one where that's a good one but it's a good one because like i've wondered that myself. I know now why that is. I know why it doesn't suck it into space. Why doesn't it get sucked into space? Because you think that a vacuum sucks things. It's going to suck everything away. So if there's this atmosphere on the Earth, the vacuum of space will suck it away.

But the thing is, vacuum doesn't actually suck. Vacuum is nothing. It has no energy. It doesn't do anything. There's no power. The reason that things flow, vacuum doesn't actually suck. Vacuum is nothing. It has no energy. It doesn't do anything. There's no power. The reason that things flow into vacuum is air pressure. And air pressure is a function of gravity. So gravity is pulling everything down towards the Earth.

So there's nothing that can push it out, if you see what I'm saying. If you imagine, like, if the universe was suddenly filled with loads and loads of gas, like oxygen say, and then you stick a big planet in there, all the gas would kind of like gravity would bring it down towards this planet. Well, they don't believe in gravity though.

Yeah, they don't believe in gravity. It's electromagnetic. This is my favorite new one. Did you see the one where they show that if the Earth was a globe that all the water be on the bottom? Yeah, I think that wonderful. I think that was a joke you think it's a joke How how can you be so sure about the other ones as well, but no no no bring it up Jamie this one's wonderful I think they're being serious. Yeah, the gravity thing though. It's it's kind of like Almost irrelevant because yeah, you know we know that things fall down right, but it's electromagnetic's kind of like almost irrelevant because yeah you know we know that things fall

down right but it's electromagnetic something or another well it's a magical force that's making things fall down it doesn't really matter you know gravity we could say we don't really understand what gravity is how do they explain lava because lava is a part of gravity too right lava well it's the idea that all these rocks are pushing down and there's extreme friction and heat. Yeah, that's buoyancy. Buoyancy and density. Buoyancy and density are functions of gravity. Like if you stick something in the water, all the water is flowing to the bottom. We're looking at this image, folks.

It says, gravity is not strong enough to stop a small stream from flowing to its lowest point. Then what is stopping the oceans north of the equator from emptying into the ocean south of the equator this is what the earth would look like if we lived on a globe gravity is pseudoscience dot dot dot a theory that can't be proven they forgot the apostrophe and can't you dunce can't be proven look at that image though it's hilarious why is there water on the top at all how about that you stupid it's hilarious why is there water on the top at all how about that you stupid it's raining is that what it is it rains on top only it evaporates from the bottom and comes around the top that would be kind of cool if half the planet

was dirt and half the planet was water kind of weird why would that be any weirder than what it is now yeah the reason they don't like gravity is that if you actually apply the laws of gravity to a flat earth the flat earth would actually scrunch up into a ball oh yeah right of all that rock there's no way it can it can lay flat like that it would it would uh it would either be like gravity would be intensely large because you've got an infinite amount of rock underneath you or it's like something on the back of a turtle or something and it would just scrunch up into a ball what do they think lava is molten rock i mean they just think it's buoyant because it heats up and becomes less dense than the other rock but why is it why is it down there in the

bottom why is it core the fires of hell are heating it up the fires of hell look at this what is this tennis ball yeah why doesn't water fly off the earth uh it spins like because the the force is spinning that's this this is uh this is a fundamental misunderstanding that people have. They misinterpret angular velocity and linear velocity. We know the Earth is spinning around a thousand miles an hour. So they think if this ball was spinning around at a thousand miles

an hour, then the water would fly off. But it's not flying off because of the surface of the ball going a thousand miles an hour. It's flying off because it's rotating 50 times a second or whatever, 10 times a second. It's the angular velocity which creates the outward force. Linear velocity has nothing to do with it. It's only when you're actually turning.

When you're driving in a car, like if you're driving really, really fast, you don't really feel any forces act on you. But when you go around a corner, you get slammed over to one side. So it's the rate of your angular velocity. Now, the Earth rotates once every 24 hours, so it's going really, really, really slow. Put that back up, please. And if you imagine that tennis ball,

and if you take it and stick it in a little turntable that rotates once every 24 hours, the water is not going to fly off. Right. And it's the exact same force acting on the Earth, becauseable that rotates once every 24 hours, the water is not going to fly off. Right. And it's the exact same force acting on the Earth because the Earth rotates once every 24 hours. The fact that it's going 1,000 miles an hour is completely irrelevant because it's essentially going in straight lines around the edge. Jamie, go to that photo on the upper left-hand side.

Scroll up. This thing? Up here. Satan's globe, earth, lie. This bottom picture here is a great example of how ridiculous things are. Hold on. Satan's globe, earth, lie. The Big Bang and evolution explain life.

You were an accident. We evolved from primordial soup. We are specks in the universe. Some people are more valuable than others. Foundation for the new world order. You are worthless. Next image. Foundation for the new world order. You are worthless. Next image, God's flat earth. Creation is the only explanation.

We are incredibly valuable. The Bible is 100% true. We live on an unmoving, firm foundation. You were created by God, in all caps. God loves you. Oh, well, that seems better. That seems better. That's probably a true believer though oh yeah you think that image there is a is a good example of like things that is completely ridiculous on the flat earth right you

see they have the Sun on one side and it's illuminating how the earth yeah and the way the way it's curved like that they think the Sun's way closer to right yeah they think the earth acts the Sun acts like a spotlight but he's looking at that it's not acting like a spotlight it's illuminating all of the ice wall where's the ice wall there's the white stuff around oh that's the ice wall yeah oh yeah which is actually you know it's just a antarctica stretched into this projection why doesn't one of those dickheads get in a boat and take a photo of that wall well that's another thing like they think they've got guards all the way around it oh Oh, there are guards. Yeah. What is that? That's like 36,000 miles. Of guards? Of guards in the ocean and on a freezing ice wall. It's like the wall from, what is it,

Game of Thrones. It's like 36,000 miles of it. Well, they make up facts and then they use those facts to kind of state their point, like you can't, it's illegal to fly over Antarctica. Yeah. That's kind of based on like half, well, a quarter truth. Like you have to have, you can't fly a two-engine jet over Antarctica because if one engine fails,

you wouldn't be able to get to an airport. So they only allow four-engine jets, like 747s and A380s, to fly. So all those flights that you see that go over at the Antarctic ice, they're all 747s. Yeah, because if it fucks up, you're doomed. Yeah. Yeah, it's a long way with nothing.

There's a set of regulations called ETOPS, which is all about how far you can go away from an airport and what configuration of plane that you have to do. See, now, I wonder how many people are listening to this and it's turning their mind. Do you think it's possible? Do you think there's got to be a spectrum of people that believe? There is. There's a spectrum.

And some people will be turned. This will cause a lot of ruffled feathers. Are you ready for the shill tweets? Are you ready? Will you wear a round earth shill shirt if we get you one? At youngjamie.com? I don't know. I actually don't like.

It's very comfortable. I know it's all in good humor. It's very soft. You don't like joking around about it? People take it seriously. Oh, yeah. But those people are assholes. I had a t-shirt that said, I make stuff up that my wife got me because I'm always making stupid jokes.

Right. And someone saw a photograph of me online wearing this t-shirt that said, I make stuff up. And it said, there's Mick West, I'm missing. And they were completely serious. Yeah, but they're stupid. Yeah, but it makes it harder to reach people if they're pointing, it's a distraction, something like that. Yeah, I guess I hear what you're saying.

I'm pretty easy to dismiss. They always say that you work for the government. That's the big one. You're a government employee. You made video games, right? Yeah, I'm a retired video game programmer. I helped make the Tony Hawk series of video games, made enough money to retire on,

and now I just potter around the house, do gardening and do debunking stuff, do fun experiments in the backyard. But you're living the goddamn American dream. That's what you're doing. You made enough money to not have to slave away And these assholes want to think that you're some government shill like the government's involved in the Tony Hawk video games They recruited you they said listen. I know you're doing a good job making these video games

We've got a better place for you What you need to do is cover up the flat earth and chemtrails and UFOs and what else what else you cover up? Morgellons? Morgellons disease is a fascinating one that's one of the ones that we interested that we in investigated on that show and do you know that one of the guys we interviewed was a doctor and what he thinks is that everyone who has Morgellons also has Lyme disease and Lyme disease has a neurotoxicity effect. And he was talking himself about his own hallucinations, that he sees things like crawling across his

eyes that he knows aren't there. He was a very rational guy. And he was also saying that Lyme disease, when you get it from ticks, that you're not just getting this one disease, but you're getting a host of pathogens. And sometimes these pathogens will interact with each other in very different ways. And that, you know, some are more extreme, some are less extreme, but he's like, you might be dealing with hundreds of different pathogens that are undiscovered or, or, uh, undefined. And he thinks that what's going on with a lot of these people

that have more gelons is Lyme disease and whatever these other diseases are, that's causing them to hallucinate and think that fibers are growing out of their skin When really what it is is they're scratching themselves And then they get like carpet fibers or clothing fibers on their skin, and then they think it's coming out of there He was very reasonable and he made a ton of sense because we went to this more gelons convention We talked to all these people that had it and they fucking all have Lyme disease. They all have it Well, they all they all get tested positive for it. There's a bit of controversy about that because the tests that you can do, you can basically keep doing it and it's a kind of a very inexact test.

For Lyme disease? Yeah. It gives a lot of false positives. There's a bunch of different tests. But there's so many people with Lyme disease, which is where it's interesting because Lyme disease is, I know a lot of people that have gotten it from ticks and it's devastating. It's a real thing it's devastating there's a lot of controversy well yeah it's one of those things that the medical community has a mainstream opinion about whether there's this long-term effects from Lyme disease and then there's people who you know

think that there is these long-term effects so there's there's some dispute there is some but let me clarify from people that I know that have gotten it one of the things about the medical community is the ignorance of Lyme disease and that you go to a lot of different doctors and they poo-poo it. They say, oh, there's nothing to worry about. My friend's son got it, and he developed Bell's palsy, where his face went numb, and that was when they took it seriously. And they finally gave him this intense round of intravenous antibiotics. But my friend was on antibiotics for months. I mean, he was devastated. And we had a guy in here that had it for three years.

And he had it for a full year where he was undiagnosed. Stephen Kotler had a full year where he was undiagnosed. And his body just was ravaged by this stuff. I used to write a lot about Morgellons, which is related to Lyme disease. And one of the reasons I stopped doing it was that it's such a personal thing for the people involved. Yeah. And I just really wasn't comfortable like-

Calling them liars? Not that, but just trying to figure out what's really going on and raising possibilities that it might not be like these bugs living under their skin. Yeah. Because they just get very upset, and you really, you weren't reaching a lot of them.

So eventually I stopped that, and I moved on to chemtrails, which I thought would be more reasonable people involved. It's another one where people are initially invested in that idea, and then once they become initially invested, it's so hard to shake them off. It's so hard. They just are absolutely convinced that the government is spraying things.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine i was like that has got to be the most ineffective use of money ever like they're spraying things and what the has changed nothing nothing's changed they're spending all this money spraying things in the sky that just happen to look like clouds but yet we know that you can make clouds with a jet engine a certain amount of condensation in the atmosphere the heat of the jet engine causes clouds like we know that you can make clouds with a jet engine, a certain amount of condensation in the atmosphere, the heat of the jet engine causes clouds. Like we know that, but they don't think that's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And there's established science, established science. Well, like, you know, the flat earth is established. The lack of flatness of the earth is established science that's been going on for a real long time. And people just pick and choose which science they

want to use. What keeps you going with all this stuff, with running Metabunk? Well, I enjoy doing these little experiments. I do a lot of stuff like going into my backyard and testing things out. A lot of the stuff, there's pictures of UFOs and things like that and you can duplicate them because some of them are like reflections or things in the camera and you can go out and say, well, this did this. Or people are saying that a certain photograph is an indication that it's false,

or these shadows go this way. You know, the moon landing has lots of fake shadow claims made about it. What do you think happened at Roswell? Roswell, New Mexico, that's the big one. July 1947, the UFO crashed. Yeah, I think it's what they said it was. It was those balloons that they were using to detect Russian nuclear bombs in the atmosphere. And it was a secret program, so they weren't allowed to tell anybody about it.

So they came in, they picked up the remains of the balloon, and then the story just took off. That's a funny one, though, boy. That's made a whole town famous for UFOs. If you go there now, they have alien-themed gift shops. They're milking it. It's like you said earlier. People make money out of something, and then they get stuck into that. Because they're making money out of it, they're motivated to promote whatever it is, if it's Bigfoot or if it's aliens.

I read it if it's a Bigfoot or if it's aliens have you ever seen anything in all of your years of trying to debunk these things That made you question whether or not this was a legitimate phenomena or the chemtrails anything anything anything UFO chemtrail thing is like with with UFOs. There's all things that you can't explain There are things that are unidentified, but there are there's usually plausible explanations for them, right? I like to like whenever I'm given something, like a mysterious thing, I like to list all the explanations that I can think of. And maybe none of them are a perfect fix that you can guarantee this is what the explanation is.

But, like, it being, like, a ghost or an alien spacecraft as an explanation is usually pretty close to the bottom. Like, you start out saying, oh, it's a balloon, or it's a bird, or it's a drone, or it's CGI, or it's something somebody faked afterwards, or it's an alien spacecraft. Or in between that, like, oh, it's something else that we don't know what it is.

Is there any evidence, like in terms of UFOs, that's interesting? I haven't, you know, to be honest, I haven't really looked into the the whole sphere of ufology uh i know a lot of people have but just looking at the quality of the the best cases they put forward like i mentioned earlier like you know some guy in 1964 like got his car beat up on a road right uh these are like the you know top 10 best cases and this was like number two or something what about bob lazar you ever looking at that guy i don't know which was he like bob lazar is a guy And these are like the top 10 best cases, and this was like number two or something. What about Bob Lazar? You ever look into that guy?

I don't know. Which was he? Bob Lazar is a guy who supposedly worked at Area 51 and became a whistleblower. No, I haven't. But, you know, a lot of something you see in the 9-11 community is, and in the chemtrail community is people kind of becoming celebrities yeah and then they kind of start going on road shows and you know they they go to conventions and they speak and then they write books and then they start doing things and they they get sucked into their their beliefs and there's been lots of examples in the past

of people who made claims like this and then eventually owned up to it. A classic one, really classic one, is the Cottingley Fairies, where these girls in Cottingley, England, I went to school in, but it's still a world famous thing, faked these photographs of fairies. And they convinced a large number of people, including Arthur Conan Doyle. Really? The guy who wrote Tarzan? Yeah.

He believed in the fairies? Well, no, the guy who wrote Sherlock Holmes. Did Arthur Conan Doyle write Tarzan? No, that was William Burroughs? No. No. Someone else. Anyway.

Look at that. They stuck to that. It's obviously fake. It's so stupid. They cut him out of a magazine or something And then they owned up like basically on their deathbeds like 70 years later But they were they were milking it Because once they get into it, it's embarrassing to admit that you made something up plus you're getting all this attention Right and you in some cases you're getting money i don't know if they get any money i wonder how many people were so duped by that

they changed their life and they started looking for fairies and wasting their time when i was growing up that was that was put out as being a genuine fairy sighting really yeah and did you believe it oh no well i probably did when i was like, you know, 13 or 6. But yeah, people get sucked in and they become celebrities. And then they like... There it is. TNA reveals the first time letter which ended the Cottingley hoax. Yeah, I went to school just behind their house. So for 70 years this lady kept the lie?

Yeah. Wow. There was two of them, I think. What a bitch. And there's people like that in the UFO community who've made up stories of abductions and things. And then later their stories either become so ridiculous and contradictory you know that they were lying. There's a wonderful one from this guy

from the 1950s where it's a it's great old black and white footage when they talk to him about his ufo experiences and all the different aliens that he communicates with and he just seems so obviously crazy and yet this was like heralded as one of the most important cases of ufology and yeah you know you know the guy i'm talking about i forget the guy's name now there was a thing called hubcaps and shit the montauk chronicles uh which i think you would did a segment on that it was like an island where they have an underground thing where they were rumored to be experimenting on children plum island no that wasn't plum island but anyway there was there was something like that this guy basically said he had all these remembered memories of working on the secret government base.

And he became pretty famous and wrote loads of books. But yeah, I don't know. I think he might have just been a bit crazy. Well, there's a lot of that out there, for sure. Is there anything else in your pile of notes over there that you wanted to alert people to? I think the thing I would really encourage people to do is look closely at things.

It's really hard to do, but if people are on the fence, they need to look very, very closely at the claims that people are making, like the claims that Eric DeBay is making. If Eric DeBay says something like, you know, the horizon always rises to eye level, this is something you can actually check.

Now, it's not easy. You've got to be reasonably careful with this $2 level, but you can actually check to see whether that is correct. You can check for yourself if something reappears over the horizon when you zoom in, which is something that he claims, something that's a ridiculous claim that's been made for over 100 years, that when things move away from you, they disappear from the bottom up. And if you zoom in, they will reappear.

It doesn't actually happen. When you zoom in on something, all it does is it makes the picture bigger. It makes the image bigger. And you can check this for yourself. You can go down to Santa Monica Pier. You can focus on the North Shore, like Malibu. And you can zoom in and you can see that the picture does not change at all throughout the entire zoom. And when you're fully zoomed in, so you can see the cars whizzing along PCH,

you will see that the bottom part of the road and the buildings is obscured. And you can do it with Catalina. You can turn around and look at Catalina, and you can zoom in on that, and you can see that two-thirds of Catalina Island is missing. I think a lot of what you're saying is very important because what we're talking about is just being able to look at things objectively and use facts to determine that this one theory in particular flatter theory is not true but I think what's really going

on is the thought process there's a way the human mind gravitates towards these puzzles and these problems and these these Undiscovered truths these these mysteries that people just want to be the person that knows they want to be in the know and it's very intoxicating and That's what really this stuff is all about more than anything. It's about the way the mind works And it's about the way your mind can be tricked. And it's an information issue that we're dealing with today with things like YouTube, where no one can stop you from making... You don't have to go through the people that work at NBC or Fox or whatever. You don't have to go through the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times editorial

board where they have to review your paper and go, hey, you wrote a bunch of stuff that's not true. No, that doesn't have to happen anymore. Now you can just make a video and it can be really well done with good music and good images and the way it's done can really influence a lot of people who don't have a background in science or not curious about looking into the debunking version of it that's why whenever someone sends me something, I always say, just Google that, whatever you sent me, and then debunked.

Just do that first. And then look at both sides. But people don't want that debunk. That debunk's not sexy. The conspiracy's sexy. I know people are turned off by the debunking thing. Yeah, they hate it. Yeah, and that's why I do tell people to go do their own research,

but really actually do some real research, as in do some actual observations and experiments. That's boring. YouTube videos are fun. You know, you watch a YouTube video about dinosaurs being fake. That's fun. You know, like, what? They're fake?

I can't believe it. They fucking got me. It's just like watching a YouTube video about Roswell rods or any of these other silly things. I'm kind of excited about the eclipse. I think that's an opportunity to get people excited about the sun. You're thinking like a scientist, though. You're not thinking like a loon.

I know. I get excited about the eclipse, but not everyone does. Well, it's exciting. It is exciting. It's pretty rare, a solar eclipse. The moon's going to come in front of the sun. Yeah. Get your camera out. When does that happen? Check it. August 21st.

It's going to be totality in Oregon, but you'll be able to see it from all over. Oh, a lot of people are going to go to Oregon just to see it? Yeah, I'm going to Oregon. Are you? Wow, look at you. You don't fuck around. I have relatives. Oh, an excuse?

Yeah. They're going to try to schedule some sort of a dinner at the very time. We're going to be out of the campsite looking at the eclipse. Anything else? And it's saw the same oh And it's kind of complicated, but let me just run by you real quick maps maps maps Have you heard the Mercator? Projection no the standard map that you see in school rooms has this really stretched out Iceland Greenland it looks looks kind of distorted.

It's not like the real world. The reason that we use these maps, this particular type of map, is that if you draw a line between two points on the map and then you sail along that heading, you will end up at that point. Now, this is a type of navigation called rum line navigation that's been used for like yeah hundreds of years

and the thing is that the map the maceda map gets stretched out to the top but also gets stretched out at the bottom because the navigators of from hundreds of years ago knew that the world was round and that they knew if they drew a line between two points in the southern hemisphere using the same map it would get you to that destination using rum navigation using the same map, it would get you to that destination using RUM navigation, which is basically just one more piece of evidence that the actual, the globe map matches reality because people have used RUM navigation for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. So you're saying that the image of the continents is in some way stretched out and distorted? Yeah, if you take a globe.

Why do they do that? Well, if you take a globe, you can't just put it onto a flat surface. Right. Because you're going to have to distort it somehow. So there's various different ways people use of putting it on the surface. You could just take your latitude and longitude and just map it into a rectangle, and that works out fairly well. That's a nice thing. That's called an equirectangular

map but the most common map that was used like before like say 30 years ago was this makita projection which is the the map that people use for navigating ship route so you can get from point a to b if you wanted to go from england to um you know north america across the ocean you just draw a line between the two points, and then you say, oh, that's the heading I've got to go in, and so you head off in that heading. Now, that doesn't take you in a straight line. It actually takes you in kind of a curved line

because if you're going on a constant compass heading on a globe, you actually kind of curve in towards the poles or away from the poles, depending which way you're going. I really don't understand what you're saying. I know, I know. But all it is is that there's this method of navigation that people use that relies upon the Earth being a globe. And it's this really, really simple map

that is in thousands of homes, millions of homes and schools that everybody uses. And you can see that on the map, the lines get smaller towards the top and they get smaller towards the bottom. And if people are doing a voyage around the world, they're going to use this map. And it only works on the globe world. That's another issue too.

People have circumnavigated the globe. Yeah. Well, they think they just sail around the outside, which of course would take a lot longer. That's another thing like Australia. Have you seen Australia on the flat earth map? No. it's like You see it on that image that was up earlier. It's like this kind of squish thing

You know what Australia looks like it's more or less like this looks like we do earth. It's kind of like this It's all stretched out. It's like twice as long and half as wide have you seen the theory the conspiracy theory that Australia is Scooby-Doo? No Scooby-Doo's head yes Yes. Yeah. I can see that. It's just a joke. Italy is a boot. Yeah, they just, it's one of those joke memes.

Yeah, so, the distances between places in Australia don't work. Is that the flat Earth map? Yeah. Yeah, that's the flat Earth map and that's Australia. And Australia looks

nothing like that. And if you lived in Australia, you would know it looks nothing at all like that. It's just hilarious that there's so many versions of this. It's hilarious that there's so many people who have taken the time in front of a computer

to create this flat earth map and put this ice wall. And the idea that, how do they know it's an ice wall? Like, where's the pictures? There's pictures of ice shelves from, like, Antarctica. So they think that's the whole wall? They think that's the wall, yeah. So that you'll see memes like Yeah, globe earth does be like what flat what ice wall and yeah be like is this and they show you the suck on this

of a Nice shelf, which is like two and a few. I wish you could fly over. Well, that's the mentality, right? It's a bunch of little kids or a bunch of dumb people or a bunch of people that have very little Education or a bunch of people that are also speaking they're preaching to the choir yeah it ties into like misconceptions that are natural like funny thing like when I worked in the video game industry there was you know platform games you jump from little platforms and sometimes you have like platforms that move around and you write them like Mario type things right in some video games when you jump up on a moving platform and then jump

down and fall down you will fall on a moving platform and then fall down, you will fall down because the platform moves out from underneath you. Sometimes you jump up and you move with the platform and you land on it. It depends on what the programmer did. Now a friend of mine was doing a video game and one of the programmers said, oh, if you jump up and then jump down, the platform should have moved out from underneath you. So you should be able to, this, you should be able to, you know, this is the way we should program the physics.

And then my friend Matt said, no, that's wrong. And he couldn't convince this other guy. So eventually what happened, he said, right, what we're going to do is we're going to go out onto the road with my pickup, my pickup truck. I'm going to get in the back and you're going to drive along at 30 miles an hour. And I'm going to jump straight up in the air and we're going to see whether I land in the truck or I land on the road. So they did this experiment and the other guy who was driving the truck was totally expecting him to jump up and then fall out the back of the truck because the truck wouldn't

have moved on because he's moving the same speed as the truck. So he jumps up and then he lands back in the truck. And this is illustrating that this video game programmer had the exact same misconception that the flat earthers do, because they say, well, if the Earth is moving so fast, why can't you just go up in a helicopter, hover a bit, wait for the Earth to move underneath you, and then go back down again? It's just completely backwards physics, because you're already moving, so you'd have to slow down to zero, which is the same as speeding up relatively speaking so the point is that anyone can make misconceptions about physics like that yeah and it's easy to get sucked into that and it's actually quite hard to break them even for like

this this reasonable guy who was like you know video game programmer who presumably knew something about physics he was convinced that Matt was gonna fall out of the back of the truck and quite possibly die but he still let him do the experiment well let's end it on that because this is literally hurting my brain yeah but what you're doing is very important and I really want to thank you thank you your website is very important it's very important for people who are curious and concerned and don't understand the physics and the logic and the science behind it all but I've I've sent your site to many, many people that believed or don't believe and we're trying

to figure out a way to explain it. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being on too. Thank you very much. All right, folks. That's it for the week.

See ya. you