The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #112 with Don Frye

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

Joe sits down with mixed martial artist Don Frye: a UFC Hall of Famer, former pro wrestler, and co-host, along with Dan Severin, of "Dan and Don’s Toxic Masculinity Podcast."

the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day don fry it's a goddamn honor and a pleasure hey partner thank you you know like i said earlier first time first only time we met i insulted insulted you. I don't remember that. It was down there in Alabama, right? Those were the early days, right? Yeah, number 12. Oh, UFC 12. That was my first one. Yeah.

What did you say? Well, we were backstage, and, you know, they introduced us, and I says, you know, do you know who this guy is? And they said, and I says, yeah, he plays that real dumb guy on the news radio show. But that's not an insult. You look so hurt, then I find out, I find out,

you know, your character's really actually part of who you are. That's part of the problem. It's very close to who I am, unfortunately. I've been watching you,

man, you're a smart bastard, man, I'm impressed. I have a good memory. I'm not that smart, but I have a good memory. You know what? There was going on in a lot of stuff.

I know some things. Some things. The Bob Lazar stuff? That's impressive. Are you interested in UFOs? Oh, yeah. Yeah. A lot of folks in Arizona are interested in UFOs.

There's a lot of that. They visit there quite a bit, it seems like. Yeah, there's a house that I have. It was built i guess the guy who built it um built it so his wife could watch the ufos over at the mountain there wow that's a high maintenance lady yeah yeah well they all are but imagine that what kind of house you want honey i want a house where i watch us. I need an observation deck. That's basically it. It was like a bunker.

Was it? Yeah. Half of it's in the ground, and then all the block, you know, you get the big 16 by 8 block, and they're all filled with cement. There's a lot of weird houses like that. There's a house for sale in Arizona right now. It used to be Steven Seagal's house. It might still be his house. He's selling it, but it's bulletproof. It used to be Steven Seagal's house. It might still be his house.

He's selling it, but it's bulletproof. It's got bulletproof glass. It's like a compound. That guy's a goof. He's a silly man. He's a fucking goof. Beyond silly. He's a silly man.

He believes that shit, who he is. I don't know what he believes and what he's just bullshitting. It's hard to tell. You can't bullshit that good. He's a lousy actor. He's a lousy actor. How the hell can you pretend to be that you know i mean that's his hustle right his hustle is that he's just like a martial arts guy but you know he's really good at aikido i'm sure you watch those demonstrations

you know what if i get a couple pro wrestlers to be my ookies, you know, they make me look like a million dollars. That's true. That is what happens, right? They're all compliant. Don, how did you – when did you – you started out, it was like UFC 8. Was that your first fight? No, it was first in UFC.

I fought before. You fought boxing and kickboxing before that, right? No kickboxing. I did boxing. I think I had eight fights, and I think I was 2-6 or 2-5-1. I don't know because I fought my first two as Don Fry, and I won those. I fought my first two as Don Fry and I won those and then I had an argument with my trainer and so we split and then so then I fought under J.R. Fry. Why'd you change your name? Oh that was my name growing up as junior so J.R. and that's how I was in junior high, high school. And then when my dad and mom called me,

and then I think I changed my name because of contractual things. Oh, you had some deal with the manager? Yeah, right. There's a lot of those sneaky deals, huh? Yeah, but that was more with the trainer. And I don't know if that was because they were really good guys. Art Martori was my money guy who, you know, the two Munoz, Mike Munoz and his father Al brought me to Art. Art wrestled at ASU back in the late 60s.

And Art, he's a billionaire, you know. And so he was interested and, I mean, he basically funds ASU Wrestling. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Out of his pocket, yeah. And he's done so much for amateur wrestling in the U.S.

I mean, he's like the top dog because he used to have what's called Sunkist wrestling team and so that was his baby and he steamrolled that and then like I said the Munoz brothers or Mike and his dad took me to Art so So let's give it a shot. After he called, geez, the coach at Okie State, Joe Say, to double check on me. So did you start it out wrestling? Did you wrestle as a young boy? No, sir. When did you start wrestling? As a freshman in high school. And then when did you box?

When I got out of college. Oh, so most of it was, you know, that's fairly late in life to box, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's why I was two and six. So when did you hear about the UFC? I was a fireman, you know. did you hear about the UFC? I was a fireman, you know. I did the boxing and then got out and did started doing odd jobs for, you know, a year, year and a half. And then my wife at that time,

we had a couple of horses, you know, and being a college wrestler, you get a bit of an ego on you. You know, and being a college wrestler, you got a bit of an ego on you. So I look at, well, hell, I could do that. So I started going around with a farrier named Stoney Newfang. And then Stoney got me interested. Then I got tired of that. It wasn't really making any good money. But, you know, for the time, he was giving me five bucks a horse, you know, to teach me, you know, to pull the shoes, shape the shoe, you know, the time he's giving me five bucks a horse you know teach me you know

pull the shoes um shape the shoe you know and all that good stuff well he he did the technical work on the hooves and then um i said you know somebody told me about being a fireman about you know working 10 days a month. I had a restaurant. I said, hell, that's a job for me. 10 days a month, I can do that. You're doing the 24-hour shifts? Yeah. You stay there at the firehouse?

Yeah. So I got on the phone, called up all the cities in the state of Arizona. Nobody was hiring. So I called up Santa Fe, New Mexico. They said, yeah, we're going to run a test so I went over there and tested and passed the test and then I went to my buddy Jerry Pagampaw

he's the guy who got me into wrestling when I was in high school come over here later please there you go I'll leave that over there for you thank you sir bring your and

so then I went and stayed at Jerry's house in Santa Fe and I went through their I think it was like a six month or more academy you know in the fire department yeah really six months yeah I think it was like a six-month or more academy.

In the fire department? Yeah. Really? Six months? Yeah. Wow. It was a hell of an academy. It really was.

And so from there, you thought about fighting? No, I had already fought. No, but I mean in the UFC. Oh, no. From there, we were there a year, year and a half. Couldn't afford to live there. In Santa Fe, you're either real rich or real poor. This was 30 years ago, so I don't know how it is now.

Probably similar. Probably. Like the whole country now, right? It's supposed to be nice, though, Santa Fe. A lot of friends from there. Beautiful. Yeah. You never been?

No, never been. Oh, you got to go. I don't even think I've been to New Mexico except driving from there. Beautiful. Yeah. You never been? No, never been. Oh, you got to go. I don't even think I've been to New Mexico except driving through once. Really? Yeah. Where'd you drive through at? I was a kid. I don't remember it.

Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, you haven't gotten to see John Jones, have you? No, no. Jackson Winklejohn. I want to go down there and check out the gym, though. How come you haven't? Just a busy man, Don Fry. Just a busy man. There's a lot of places I want to go. Yeah. check out the gym, though. How come you haven't? Just a busy man, Don Fry.

Just a busy man. There's a lot of places I want to go. Yeah. Never been to North Dakota either. I have. I bet you have. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah.

It's beautiful. I don't know why I said North Dakota. I saw the lights, man. That was cool. Oh, the northern lights? Yeah. Ah, I want to see that. Oh, that is so cool, man.

That's pretty wild. Yeah, I did that. I want to see that. Oh, that is so cool, man. That's pretty wild. Yeah, I did that. After I had my first neck surgery back in 2000, me and a couple buddies went and did the Amsterdam thing, you know?

And that was real cool. We saw the lights up there. What did you have done on your neck? You have fused? Yeah, I had broken it doing pro wrestling and worked on it for a year and a half not knowing, you know. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, but I'd lost so much muscle in the right arm, you know, and so they fixed it. And I had a really nice, I can't remember her name and i'm talking a lot i never talked this much that's what a podcast is all about joe i don't talk this much in a month man

well we could take breaks you're doing the hell you got the right combination of pain pills today anyway So, out of all the injuries that you ever got in your fighting career, was the pro wrestling injuries the worst? Yeah. Yeah. Pro wrestling is probably one of the hardest things that a guy can do athletically. Because those guys do it every

fucking night. All the guys that I've had in here, you know, The Undertaker, Diamond Dallas Page, all these these guys like every one of them when they tell you their stories you go jesus christ jake the snake those guys are so banged up yeah i'm trying to get rick flair whoa i love rick i love rick working on a rick yeah oh he's a goddamn legend um so when you when you first heard about about the UFC, so you were a firefighter then? Well, back to the, you know, like I said, we were in Santa Fe for a year, year and a half,

and couldn't afford to live there. And so I got on the phone and said, well, shit, you know, we still had horses, and still paying farriers, so, well, shit. You know, we still had horses. They're still paying farriers. So, well, shit, I can do that. So I found Oklahoma Horseshoeing School in Okie City. And so I moved my wife back home to my parents' house, you know. And I went to Oklahoma Horseshoeing School for their 12-week program. Oh, wow.

And so I did that. horse-roaring school for their 12-week program. Oh, wow. And so I did that. And then when I came back to Arizona, Sierra Vista, hooked up with a guy named, oh, geez, this is going to kill me, Tyler Basinger. Tyler is a magician. He's a farrier, just a magician. He's a farrier. Just a magician. And he paid me $5 a horse, you know, and fed me lunch. And, you know, so I was learning how to shoe horses from him, you know, doing apprenticeship.

Starting my own business. I got on as a firefighter reserve, you know, in a place called Fry Fire Department. You know, F-R-Y, no relation. The old man had an outpost store outside of Fort Huachuca, you know, 150 years ago. And also a whorehouse. This is like old school western shit. Yeah. Wow.

This is like old school western shit Yeah Wow And so then I had Sometime I worked at a Psych facility too Psych facility? Psychological Oh psychological facility?

Yeah What'd you do there like restrain patients? Yeah What's harder horseshoeing or restraining patients? Horseshoeing I broke a kid's arm, so, you know, just a headlock. You know, they did a breakout where, you know, 20 or 30 of them run off, and then you got to herd them back in. Really?

Boy, a couple of them act out, and one of the guys had the kid restrained from heading from behind, had his arms pinned. The kid started slamming his head into his face. So I just walked up to the headlock, and we landed, snapped his arm. Oh, no. Yeah, that kind of put a damper on things. Yeah. Was that the end of your restraining patience?

Yeah, that was the end of that career. So how does it make its way to the UFC? Do you remember when you found out about the UFC? Yeah, I think that was still a year or two before. So this is like 92, something like that? Yeah, and then I started doing judo because I know, because I needed something to do, you know. Right. You know, you're 22, 24 years old.

You know, you used to be a college athlete. You know, you still walk around with an erection. Right. I understand. And so I started doing judo and advanced really quickly in that. And so then I got on the Bisbee Fire Department in 94. Bisbee, Arizona? Yeah.

Shout out to Doug Stanhope. He's the king of Bisbee. Yeah. That's what I hear. I met him one time. Did you? Yeah, at the airport. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. He says, you're a firefighter. I used to be. Shit, this was probably 15, 18 years ago. Oh, wow. And, yeah, we're in a hell of an arena. So you were talking about when you first heard about the UFC. Yeah, in 92, I got on with the Bisbee fire.

And then we were sitting there watching something on TV and saw Dan, clip of Dan. Dan Severn? Uh-huh. And then he was doing some kind of bodyguard work with that gal who works. Oh, fuck me. I'm bad at names. I had a stroke a few years ago. You did?

Hemorrhagic stroke, yeah, after surgery. Oh, shit. So I get lost sometimes. Fuck me. You can edit this. Yeah, it doesn't matter anyway. So Dan was doing bodyguard work. Yeah, for Robin from, who's the radio guy in New York City?

Robin Quivers? Howard Stern? Right, right. Oh, really? No shit? Yeah, in his gray t-shirt, yeah. Wow. Everybody's in suits, Dan's in his gray t-shirt.

And so then we saw Dan fight, and I called him up. I said, fuck. I said, Dan, this is Don Fry. Remember me? He goes, yeah. What are you doing, Don? I says, playing fireman, playing horseshoer. I said, this UFC stuff, can you get me in on it?

And he says, yeah. So he ended up getting me some fights, probably about five or six fights, you know, around the country. And, you know, the check's still in the mail, you know. Was this pre-UFC? Yeah, yeah. Oh, so you fought MMA before the UFC? Oh, it was warehouse fighting. It wasn't MMA.

It was NHB. Right, right. So, right. NHB is what they called it back then. Yeah, no holds barred. Right. So you wear shoes, you do whatever you want. Was it bare knuckle? is what they called it back then. Yeah. No holds barred. Right. So you wear shoes, you do whatever you want. Was it bare knuckle?

Yeah, you do whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. In your day, and even in the UFC 8, you were still allowed to fight bare knuckle. Yeah. Yeah. But I wore gloves because I hit hard. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Smart. Gloves aren't made to protect your face. Right. They're made to protect my hands. Who was the first guy to wear gloves in the UFC? Tank.

Was it Tank? Yeah. Smart. Smart move. He hits hard. He hits hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Holy shit, I remember your fight with Tank. What a fucking fight that was. My God. And it didn't make top ten of the one round fights. Oh, I have no idea why it doesn't. Well, it's because there's so many great fights. It's arbitrary who makes top 10, but I think it should have been in there. That was a classic.

Nobody knows. Nobody knows anything about UFC 100 and B-A-War. Oh, I do. Well, you do, Joe. You're a student, and you were there. I was there. But the new fans. Yeah, they should go back because that's the history of the sport.

there the new fans yeah they should go back because that's that's the history of the sport i always tell people we knew more about martial arts after four years of the ufc than had been done in 400 years right we knew more we knew what worked and what didn't work we we saw so many different things so many different things like by the time 97 rolled around we they had figured out so first of, they realized wrestling is the most important thing. Yeah. It's the most important thing. It's like a street fight, two and a half hours every day. It really is.

It is, yeah. And it's just the ability to take a guy down. If you look at, somebody posted it. It might have been Adam Hunter on his page. I think it was on his Instagram page. He posted the amount of champions per discipline. You know, it showed like jujitsu, kickboxing, all the different, and then wrestling. It's number one.

Right. Number one out of all the different disciplines. That's the most important discipline. Well, it's the hardest thing to do. Yep. I mean, you're doing it every day in high school, every day in college, and there's no excuses. Yep, and the most mentally tough too because, first of all,

they're cutting weight. They're cutting weight the day of the event. They're competing dehydrated and exhausted, and wrestlers amongst all athletes that I've ever met take pride in being miserable. They really do. Yeah, here it is. It is Adam. Adam Hunter put it being miserable. They really do. Yeah, here it is. It is Adam. Adam Hunter put it up there.

Look at that. 28 professional champions from wrestling. The second place is Brazilian jiu-jitsu. The third place is boxing and then kickboxing. Below that, Muay Thai. And then two taekwondo and one karate. It's amazing. All right, but the jiu-jitsu, how many of those champions were in the first few years?

Right, right. Excuse me. As soon as we figured it out. Well, now everybody does everything. But I still think that base is the most important base, the wrestling base. Because a dominant wrestler, a guy like a Daniel Cormier, a guy like a John Jones, a guy who's an elite wrestler they have that advantage over everybody if shit gets weird they could take the guy down at any

time or if they just decide to impose their will they can take the guy down or if you want to take them down because they're striking they're out striking you you can't because they're wrestling so good yeah it's just it's such a giant advantage sprawl snap your head into the mat but you were one of the first guys to enter the ufc that had they look like real polished skills when you came out guns blazing you won your first fight by first round knockout and i remember watching on tv i'm like that can fight like because you're seeing people that a lot of times you're seeing folks that probably shouldn't have been there like there was back in the day, you remember the early days, there was guys that trained in ninjitsu.

They were practicing karate chopping people on the top of their heads. All kinds of wacky shit. Shit you never heard of. But when I saw you, I was like, okay, that guy's an actual fighter. And when you see the way you were throwing punches and your wrestling ability, and you were a good size, too. You weren't too big. You weren't too small.

Right. You probably weighed, like, what, 210, something like that? Yeah, I was 05, 205. But I said 210 because, you know. Sound better? Well, I knew I was going to gain weight through that year, you know, because. That was the plan? Yeah, I was a fireman, and I was shoeing horses in Arizona.

You know, you're working six, seven days a week, and I knew as soon as I gave it up, 10 pounds was going to come on real fast. Right, right. And everybody was chasing. That was when Mark Coleman, UFC 12 was when Mark Coleman became the champion when he beat Dan Severn. And Mark was 265 pounds. He was a monster.

He was a fucking gorilla. Like, people forget. He had everybody gaining weight. Yeah. Everybody gained weight when they saw the hammer. They're like, fuck. They got no choice. Yeah, you had to.

They shot that power double. And that was the headbutt days, too. Yeah, yeah. When Mark would get on top of you and get control of you and start smashing his head into your face, those were quick nights. It wasn't fun, yeah. Because Dan started that, and then I did it, and then Mark did it. Somehow Mark became the grandfather of it,

so I guess I'm a great-grandfather and Dan's a great-great-grandfather. Of ground and pound. Yeah. Yeah. It was a real wake-up call for a lot of people. But so was the jiu-jitsu, right? When Hoist Gracie tapped Dan Severin, that was a wake-up call for a lot of people but so was the jiu-jitsu right when hoist gracie tapped dan severin that was a wake-up call for a lot of people like how the fuck is he doing that off his back oh yeah his legs that was that the the gracie's they changed martial arts changed the world over yep you know yeah i think they're the most important family in

the history of all martial arts. Yeah. I mean, that was their plan, you know. And they did it. It was a great plan. The whole thing, what was brilliant about it, it was like a paid infomercial. Yeah, it was. That you paid for. Yep. You know.

Right, right. You paid $20, you know. You laugh at it now. Back then, $20 was a lot of money. Yeah. But, you know, you paid $20 to sit there and watch an infomercial. But it was brilliant. Brilliant.

So exciting. When you had your first fight, you had your first fight in the UFC, once it was over, once you won, were you like, okay, this is what I'm doing now? Yeah. Yeah. I won that, and I'm like, I love this. This is fun. I'm back to being competitive, you know.

Because my athletic career was like this, you know. It really was. Ups and downs. Yeah, you know, I'd get burnt out and walk away, you know. Right, right. And you got a real short attention span, I but when you saw what the ufc was where you could take guys down or you could stand up and then strike there was it was such a unique thing that just appealed to you yeah because i wasn't afraid to get punched in the face right

that helps yeah it does for sure and because there's a lot of wrestlers, they go in there and bam, you get hit in the bridge of the nose, it changes your opinion real fast. You know what I'm saying, Joe? Yeah, your eyes water up. You've been punched, yeah. It's an uncomfortable feeling. Now, did you think at that point in time that this was something that you, that this was going to be a real sport?

Because a lot of people weren't sure if it was going to last back then. Right. Like UFC 8, when you entered, it it was like it was still kind of crazy was when I came around was UFC 12 and they were banned from pay-per-view on everything except DirecTV DirecTV was the only people that had him on you couldn't get it on cable anymore because boxing was in cahoots with John McCain yeah Budweiser and all that stuff. That guy's dirty. Was he dirty?

Yeah, he's dirty. Well, he's gone now, rest in peace. He was a paid boxing advisor to Don King. The guy didn't know what the fuck. He was dead. So when this came around, it was beaten boxing, like you said. And so Don King said, hey, put the boots to this, you know. Yep, that's what happened.

I mean, his wife, you know, was the head of Henley Distributing, you know. Henley Beer, Budweiser Beer, yeah. Oh, that makes sense. But I knew he did something with Budweiser, and that had a big impact on him. We married at Budweiser, and that had a big impact. We married Budweiser. That had a big impact on how the UFC was, whether or not it was legal, because they started banning it from everywhere.

Yeah, that was the big joke is after the fights, you can go to the hospital or you can go to the after party. But number three is you can go to jail too. Right, yeah. We didn't know. We didn't know if we were going to come out and get slapped in cuffs and hauled away, you know, or they're going to let us finish the event and then arrest everybody.

Do you remember when Dan fought Ken Shamrock? I think it was in Denver, and they told him they couldn't punch his face and close fists? There was some kind of crazy law where they couldn't know there's Detroit was it Detroit? Yes, sir. Is it Michigan? Yes Oh, okay. See nine. Okay when and everybody was going what the fuck is going on? Like they were told before the event that they can't punch with closed fists, right? There was so many crazy rules like that when I when I the first event I did was supposed to be in New York.

It was supposed to be, I think it was supposed to be in Albany. Albany or Buffalo? I think Albany. Buffalo. Was it Buffalo? Maybe Albany. But it was upstate New York somewhere, and then it got moved last minute to Dothan, Alabama,

and that's where I met you. Yeah. Yeah, that was UFC 12. That's when Vitor made his debut, fought Trey Telligman, and that was when Mark Coleman fought Dan. There was a lot of great fights in that card. Trey Tellegman was tough.

Fuck yeah. To not be missing a breast, you know? Yeah. Missing one peck, built like a tank. A breast. Sorry, Trey. He fought Scott Ferrozzo, too. That was a tournament that night. Vitor won the tournament. 19 years old.

Yeah. Amazing. Lightning bolt, that guy was. He was amazing. You believe he's going to fight Oscar De La Hoya? Really? Yeah. He's going to have a boxing match September 11th with Oscar De La Hoya.

You got to think, that guy was fighting. I mean, well, so was Oscar. I mean, Oscar was a world champion in 97. And here it is, 97, and Vitor makes his rock debut. Was he born? What's that? Was he even born in 97? Oscar?

Yeah. Oscar's in his 40s. No, no. Vitor? Vitor. Vitor was 19 then. Yeah. So Oscar's a little older than Vitor, I believe.

I believe Oscar's like 48 or something like that. It's crazy seeing these guys still getting after it after all these years. I'd like to. You'd like to? Yeah. If your body would hold up? I'm going to go down there to Columbia and do the bio-accelerator, you know, and the plan on that is do that and hopefully make a comeback.

Really? Shit, shit, you know. Just do that. And hopefully, you know, make a comeback. Really? Shit, yeah, Joe. I love it. Shit, yeah. I mean, I'd love to fight Ngannou. Ngannou? Yeah. Really?

Yeah. He's amazing, yeah. Wouldn't it be better to fight someone your age? Why? They don't have the belt, do they? No. So you'd want to fight someone with the belt, even at your age. That's why you're Don Fry.

Yeah. Because you think like that. Yeah. If I can get my back fixed up, I'm there. What's going on with your back right now? Hell, I've had probably five or six major back surgeries, and then probably related 15 to 20 related, you know, because infections and things like that. Jesus.

And the infections tried to get me a couple of times. Staff, MRSA? Yeah, staff. I had one time I had it inside the spinal cord. Or twice, actually, twice. Is this your back? Yeah. Jesus Christ, Don, that looks like a roller coaster ride.

How many discs do you have fused? I don't know if it's 11 discs or 11 vertebrae. Howth vertebrae. How many vertebrae does a human have? 20-some. So you got half of them are fused. Wow. Give me some pictures. Let me see these.

Look at that lower left. Oh, Jesus Christ. Look at that lower left one over your back. Holy fuck, Don. Yeah, I'm going to put a zipper on it. Jesus Christ. that is crazy so they just went in and did the whole back all at once that's some shit no what happened is um whoa so that's the infection is that why that was after the infection yeah they're draining it and they had to leave it

open for a week um so that the plastic surgeon could figure out how to connect it because out of connective tissue, it was all scar tissue. So he left it open for a week. He had to cut it, pull, cut it, pull, cut it, pull, you know. Wow, that is wild. So is this mostly from pro wrestling Or is it from everything I would say everything You know as a fireman

As a horseshoer Go back three pictures The one that shows the neck and the back That one look at that So you got a few that are just hanging in there And then you got your neck fused that is goddamn wild well that's it goes all the way down the crack of my ass you know my ass track goes from my balls up to my shoulder blades wow that is crazy so it's just all scar tissue in there and

bolts and screws and plates and yeah so if i go down there columbia and get you know the stem cell you might have to live there for a few years just have them shoot you up every day yeah who knows i'm you know i'm i'm a big fan of uh stem cells they can do some wild shit down there yeah i know a lot of guys have gone to that bio accelerator thing and uh that that facility down there and had a a really good result yeah i'm excited about it you know look at me I'm giddy I can hardly sit still have you had any stem cells before no sir it's it's they can do amazing stuff but you know that's a lot of muscle there's a lot going on there yeah you know they're gonna do my shoulders too because I have um partial replacements in my shoulders what do you what

do you got going on there like resurfacedfaced? No, I just wore them out, you know. You said partial replacements? Yeah. Did they resurface the shoulders? Is that what they did? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. They just, you know, cut the end off, you know, and then stuck the one thing and just

with the knob and the other side is all natural bone. Right, yeah. Because they said if they do a full replacement you can't use them they're no good oh really you can't put stress on them yeah so i said the hell with that i want to you know i want to do something right are you able to work out now not yet um i just had this done this right one was done in 17, I think. December 17. This one just got done last December.

When did you get your first surgery after fighting? How many years in were you? After fighting? You mean during fighting, during your career. Oh, during fighting. Yeah. Hell. Because everybody's had a surgery right i've never met a

single fighter maybe i have and i forgot but most fighters that i know is that something blow out right you know well uh let's see i think in 2001 was when they did my neck so that was the first one yeah because i did that from pro wrestling the war you know because i did the ufc in 96 and then in 97 i was hired by antonio enoki and masa saito to do new japan pro wrestling and um brad reagan's um he's a cousin of Brock Lesnar, second cousin. So he called him Jeff, you know, because Brad took fourth in the Olympics in 76 in Greco-Roman. And then he was on the team in 80.

And he was going to be the gold medal winner. He had beaten the gold medal winner in 76, but they were doing the point system then. So he got screwed out of them. What's the point system? You get so many points for advancing, so many points for a pin, so many points for a point win. So they changed it? Yeah.

So they went back to the normal. I mean, amateur wrestling fucks around so much with the rules, and so does judo. Have you paid attention to the PFL at all? No, I have not. I was watching that today. I was watching it in the gym while I was working out, and it's interesting. They have real good fighters over there, some real good fighters, but they have some wacky thing that they do where you get a certain amount of points for a submission, certain amount of points for a knockout, and then you move ahead.

But it's like you're scoring. And they call it the playoffs. And then you're moving towards this eventual million-dollar tournament that they put together. That's how they were doing it with judo and with amateur wrestling. Yeah, but their thing is weird. The way they have it set up, like if you win, but if you win in the first round, you get extra points. If you miss weight, you lose a point.

So it's hard to follow. Even for someone like me who's a big fan of the sport, I can't follow their system. I'm like, like you got great fighters but you're confusing the shit out of people with this wacky system yeah well you miss weight your ass to be gone i think that's a good call i think you should not be able to fight or i think there should be some major penalty because a lot of these guys are choosing to miss weight right you know they're choosing to miss weight absolutely they're like i don't want to do this fuck it

and then but you could but you know that's going to drain you and so they choose to come in a to miss weight. Right. You know? They're choosing to miss weight. Absolutely. They're like, I don't want to do this. Fuck it. But you could, but you know that's going to drain you. And so they choose to come in a pound or two heavy, and then they feel a lot better the next day. Right. Because there's, you know, better than anybody. They have a better chance of winning, too. Yeah. Better chance of winning, because they're not as drained.

A lot of these guys are cutting. I wish there was no weight cutting. That's what I really wish. I wish you got down to a healthy weight, and you fought at whatever weight you're at and they just figured out what what the weight classes could be to make it so that there's more options make it every five pounds range or something like that like boxing has it but I think with MMA I think that the weight classes are too wide you know you got 85 and then you got 205. That's crazy. That's 20 pounds. To have two weight classes separated by 20 pounds is just fucking nuts to me.

I think it should be – I would love it if it was 5 pounds, but I think 10 pounds is fine. 10 pounds is workable. You know, you could adjust your diet, adjust your training habits, do a little extra running, whatever you got to do. Right. But more than that – But then you get into what happened in pro pro boxing you end up having 80 champions that's what the argument against it

is right but the thing about pro boxing is you know you have all these different organizations you got the wbc wba ibo you know all that shit with with the ufc if they just kept it in the ufc just with the ufc and made all these different weight classes, one every 10 pounds I think is very doable. Yeah. And it'd be a lot more opportunities for guys to go up in weight or down in weight and fight, have champion versus champion fights. Like when Israel Adesanya fought Yabu Hovich,

you got your middleweight champion fighting your light heavyweight champion. The size difference is so big. Right. It's a giant size difference. Well, that's why they need a super heavyweight. Yeah. I think so, too. Yeah.

I mean, that's, why cut it off at 285? 265. Yeah, it's crazy. It's ridiculous. It is ridiculous. You have so many good fighters that are heavier. I mean. Rulon Gardner.

Yeah. Like, Rulon Gardner's like a 300-pounder. Oh, Erickson. Tom Erickson. Yeah, Tom Erickson. Yeah, he was like a 300-pounder, right? Yeah. He was.

When in his prime, people forgot about Tom Erickson. He was frightening, yeah. Shit, he was terrifying. Elite wrestler who could knock you the fuck out, and he was huge. And he moved like a cat. Yeah. In his prime, Tom Erickson was one of the scariest specimens to ever compete in mma he was a fucking gigantic man who moved so good but he's another one didn't like getting punched

in the face though yeah who does i can't enjoy it well you're you're an unusual guy don fry so when you first fought and you decided okay this, this is what I'm going to do. When the UFC was taken off, you stayed in the UFC for a few years and then went over to Pride. When did you find out about Pride? No, I stayed in the UFC one year. Only one year? Yeah, in 96. And then I went to pro wrestling.

Oh, really? Yeah. So all your fights in the UFC were only one year? One year. Wow, no shit. Yeah. And none of them went the distance. That's incredible.

And then from New Japan Pro Wrestling, so how'd you find out about that? Then I went to Pride. Did they contact you from the UFC? Yes, sir. They contacted me. Yes, sir. from the UFC? Yes, sir.

They contacted me. Yes, sir. Because God bless Ken Shamrock, you know, he had the deal. Right. He had a connection over there. Well, no. They offered him a deal to go over there

and be a bad guy American shooter style, you know. And so he took that contract, rented WWE and showed them and they matched it or bettered it, you know. And then that left New Japan Pro Wrestling hanging. So that's when Masa Saito called Brad Riggins. Brad Riggins called Jeff Blatnick.

God bless Jeff Blatnick. He recommended me. What a great guy Jeff Blatnick was. He gave me some great advice when I first started working for the UFC. Just such a sweetheart of a guy. How did he pass? Was it a heart? Was it a heart attack?

I think so. Sweetheart of a guy, though. He was a good guy. Really good guy. And an elite wrestler, too. And just fantastic. Full metal. Yeah.

And fantastic doing commentary because of that experience. He was like you. He was a student of the sport. Yeah, he was. He got hired and studied it. You know, he's amazing. Yeah, he was an amazing guy. And when, so you go over to New Japan Pro Wrestling,

and that's when you were getting most of your injuries, you think? Yes, sir. Because I was trying to be Ric Flair and Terry Funk, you know, and they didn't want that, you know. They wanted more of a Bruiser Brody type thing. They wanted you the badass American cowboy. Right. And not to take the bumps.

I ended up taking bumps that I shouldn't have taken. That's the thing about pro wrestling, right? People think, oh, it's fake. Listen, those slams are not fake. You're really getting slammed. Those picking guys up over your head, slamming them down, them picking you up, all the different collisions that you guys would have with each other night after night after night. And is their circuit over there similar to the circuit here?

Would you do a lot of different shows, or were they mostly televised? How'd they do it over there? Yeah, they did a lot of dark matches, you know. Absolutely. I mean, that's how they keep the money coming in. Right. They do arenas just like they do in America. Right.

Yeah, people don't know, if you're not a fan of pro wrestling, those guys are working hundreds of nights a week, or a year, rather. They're working, you know, Dallas Page was telling me that he, you know he sometimes did 200-plus shows a year. Some guys do 300. It's incredible. If you stop and think about that. 365 days in a year. That's crazy.

Yeah, you're getting whacked. Most of them. Yeah, you're working more days than you're not working. Right. And the travel. Yeah, and the travel. So you're exhausted all the time, you're jet lagged, and you're getting slammed. Yeah, and you've got to stay in shape, and you've got to eat.

It's a work. It's a real living. Now, when you went over there, did you have to go to pro wrestling school? Did they train you how to do it? Brad Reagan's trained me. He did? Yeah, yes, sir brad you know phenomenal he's a phenomenal athlete you know and like i said you know he uh took fourth in the 76 olympics in montreal when he should have won and then he would

have won the 80 olympics you know and then then he ended up he got out you know he trained jeff blatnik you know because they were tight and since uh brad stepped away you know all the concentration was on on jeff and how did you go from new japan pro wrestling to pride ego yeah i saw mark coleman win you know i said you know i said that's nonsense that should be me you know stupid so what year was that what was what year was your uh your first pride fight? Hell, partner, first, 01. 01? Yeah, it was. That was the glory days.

Yeah, it was two weeks after 9-11. I think it was either 23rd or 28th. Wow. You know. Wow. And I went in there, you know, with, I told my parents, find me a flag, you know, give it to the guys when they come over. And my mother-in-law made those shorts for me.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah, so, you know, the nicest, you know, go in with the national anthem. Nice. It was amazing, you know, walking at the flag, having the national anthem. It was cool. Look at you there.

Don Fry, 20 years ago. Isn't that wild? Yeah, it's, geez. Geez. What year is this? That fight in the lower corner, that Takayama fight, that was one of the craziest fucking moments in the history of mixed martial arts when you and Takayama were just slamming each other in the head over and over and over again. God bless him, man.

Jesus Christ, that fight. See if you could just pull up that exchange because in all the history of the sport, that is one of the most iconic exchanges of any two because you couldn't believe it was happening and you couldn't believe you guys kept doing it. Well, you should have been aware of that. I mean, this fight was so fucking bananas. I mean, you just

walk towards each other and this fucking exchange is like a movie exchange. In the tie-up, you're both hitting each other with right hands. And exchange is like a movie exchange in the tie-up you're both hitting each other with right hands i mean it's actual speed what in the fuck is that how the hell did you guys do that well if you go back you see i slip so i grab him though you know because i slipped i had to grab his neck keep from falling and so he just stayed there and i stayed there just nuts i mean i've never seen anything like that before or since that was while while that was happening and you just slamming right hands into each other like that what was going through your head i was like what the hell

is keeping this guy up he was probably thinking the same thing about you. But I hit hard, Joe. I hit hard. Yeah, you do. Yeah. You hit him with some fucking haymakers. Oh, man. And I couldn't believe he was taking them. I was like, he's starting to scare the hell out of me. Was that one of those 80,000 seat shows, one of those gigantic ones they did? I think it was only 45. A small show a medium show because they did some uh some saitama

super arena shows where it was just insanity oh we did uh tokyo dome i did antonio enoki's retirement match oh yeah tokyo dome 70 000 so they sold that out and then they sold 5 000 standing tickets you know wow they got permission from the fire department to do that so i did that and then they did the um national soccer arena you know for uh pride k1 new year's eve oh wow that's when That's when Jerome Labano knocked me on my ass. Yeah, you had that one kickboxing fight against him. That's a crazy deal to take, to take a kickboxing fight against one of the great kickboxers of all time. Yeah, yeah.

Was that an ego deal too? Yeah, ego. The thing is, the deal was we were supposed to do an MMA fight, yeah. And then he backed out of that. I don't know what happened, but, man. Just never happened. There's a lot of things that happened, Joe, that I'm finding out now, you know, 20 years later, that, you know,

the two scumbags that were my agent at the time. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Oh, so they made some backdoor deals? Mm-hmm, yeah. Oh, sorry to hear that. Yeah. That's the sport, right?

Yeah, that's the sport. Prize fighting. There's always going to be scumbags. Prize fighting is full of shit, yeah. Yeah, I'm watching this The Kings documentary king's documentary on showtime have you seen it no i just found out about it yesterday oh it's fucking amazing it's amazing it's so good it's all about roberta duran sugar a lennon thomas hearns and marvin haggler it's fucking incredible yeah it's incredible it's so good And it makes you remember

Like man Those days were wild Well they They had the one Once we were kings You know about the Heavyweight guys Yeah

Yeah Yeah this is Just about those four guys In like the You know the matches That they had with each other Well the The once we were kings

Were about Ali Foreman Frazier Norton Yep And Holmes Yeah Yeah had with each other well the the ones who are kings are about ali foreman fraser norton yep and holmes yeah yeah those are some those animals there yeah my god some amazing fights i loved haggler oh my god he's my favorite yeah yeah i loved. It broke my heart when I found him. He freaking passed. Yeah, that was a rough one. I couldn't believe that. That was a rough one.

That made me real sad. He was, when I was a kid, he was my idol. Yeah. Because he was just like this guy that didn't have any hype behind him, a hardworking guy from Brockton, Massachusetts, just blue collar, just always outworked everybody. Yeah. And just wouldn't stop. and then when he got to the

pinnacle when he knocked out thomas hearns that fight was just like that was the fight that made him and people really understood what kind of greatness that man had in him people knew how good he was before that but you had to see him against another superstar and see him just wade right into the fire to see what what you know, Thomas Hearns was a murderous puncher, a monster, murderous puncher. And to see Marvin Hagler just take it and keep coming forward. What a fight. And that was a fight.

It was barely a boxing match. It was a fight. You know, I mean, they made it a war. They had that on their hat, right? Yep.

That was, that was Hagler. Yeah. He put war on everything. Yeah. He's, he was something special. He was an inspiration in Massachusetts, everybody.

I still question... The Leonard decision? Yeah. Yeah, I thought he won that fight. Yeah. Yeah, I thought he won that fight. But I did love the fact that he retired. He said, that's it.

I'm done. Fuck this sport. I'm going to italy and make martial arts movies how'd he do they were terrible terrible movies but he made a lot of money you know he was a superstar over there weren't any worse than uh dipshit huh oh they were worse believe it or not really yeah they were crazy bad but they were comically bad they were like you know like you punch people they go flying through the air, that kind of shit. You ever seen?

No. See if you can find some clips. Jamie's found some clips. They were hilarious movies. You know, but he decided he didn't want to fight anymore and went out at the very top of his game. Yeah. Which is kind of incredible. There's only a few guys who have ever done that. Andre Ward did that.

He did that. You know, only a few guys ever just went out. The guy from UFC. George St. Pierre? I don't know. Andre Ward did that. He did that. You know, only a few guys ever just went out. The guy from UFC. George St. Pierre? No. Khabib. Khabib. Khabib.

Khabib. Khabib. Khabib. Yeah. Khabib. Yeah. Khabib did it. Yeah.

I mean, Khabib and, I mean, very few guys have ever gotten to the point where Khabib is and decided, I mean, he's in his early 30s. Right. This is Marvin Hagler here. So look at this. Let's see. Look at this. They shooting the arrows at the airplane?

I don't know what he was doing, but look at this. These are terrible movies. Indigo, huh? Indigo. Indio. Indio. Oh, Indio. There's just these silly movies.

I think he's shooting at the roof. Yeah. I don't know what he's doing. It's just crazy. They're just Italian movies. But he was a huge star over there. I guess he learned Italian. See, he punches that guy.

Wow. That guy goes flying through the air. That's a hell of a hook. Look at this. Upper gut. Jeez. Wow. Guy goes flying through the air. That's a hell of a hook. Look at this. Upper gut. Jeez, that's great. But someone has to do something like that on the early days of Pride. They really do.

Because the Pride was something special. Because for us that were watching it at home, all the fans. It wasn't known. It wasn't like everybody, like the UFC today. Say if Francis Ngannou's fighting or if Stylebender's fighting. Everybody knows. It's big. It's a huge sport. You find out the events coming this weekend, hundreds of thousands,

if not a million, pay-per-view buys. It's a big deal. But back then, pride was no one knew over here. Only the martial arts fans knew. It wasn't a big deal. But back then, pride was no one knew over here. Only the martial arts fans knew. It wasn't a big deal. But we knew that we were seeing something special. Well, it was like a Super Bowl every three months. It was.

I'll tell you what, Joe. You know, people say the Noguera brothers came over here and got whooped. They say Mercode came over and got whooped. We were busted up, man. You get in top shape every three months to fight a top guy. You get busted up. It's hard. It's so hard on the body to do something like that.

Yeah, everybody who came over to America had already been past their prime in pride. They had already had a career. Yeah, a full career. Yeah. Like, think of Noguera's wars, the wars that he had, the war with Fedor, with Cro Cop, with, I mean, so many guys. Big Bob. Bob Sapp. Bob was 375 pounds, and Pyle drived him.

I love Bob, man. Apparently, Minotaur's neck was fucked up for the rest of his life after that fight. Yeah. I can see that. Of course. God dang. I mean, Bob was 375 with a six-pack, which what in the fuck was he taking? You know what?

5% body fat? He was so big. He was so big. It seemed like a boss character in a video game. Yeah. Like the final guy that you had to beat. You know? I mean, Bob was just gigantic.

And he had some skills. Yeah, and he's the funniest guy. Was he? Oh, my God, he's so funny. You know? And then somebody told me not to say that to you That he was funny? Yeah

Bob's funny Well his character was hilarious He put the cape on and everything And they loved him in Japan boy They loved him over there He was a huge superstar over there right? Yeah But I think that time

That period of time from like 2001 To whenever it was that Pride went away away was like 2006 or something like that. Yeah. Eight, maybe. Was it ten years or eight years? Look at him and Overeem. Look at Overeem, yeah. Horsemeat.

Did they fight? I don't know. It says versus behind them. Oh, it is an arm wrestling match. Oh, okay. Well, Overeim is back. He's going back to glory. So they're going to let him get back on the secret sauce.

We're going to see Alistair Overeem. Yeah, good. That's what I say. Yeah. Listen, test all the fighters you have to test. But when a guy's been saucy all throughout the best parts of his career, and then you make him come over here and be natural, I mean, we got a chance to see him against Brock Lesnar when he was saucy.

Right. You know? Right. When he was 265, jacked, built like a superhero. But then, you know, all these pesky USADA tests. You know what? If every athlete on the planet would tell USADA to kiss their fucking ass you know they go away they should go away they have too much power you know to bang on somebody's door at five o'clock in the morning how about when

they're about to fight like fight day they did it to uh alexander volkanovsky really wasn't it him was it was it was him yeah literally fight day these motherfuckers wake him up at six o'clock in the morning and and tell him to take a piss. I'd unleash the dogs. Yeah. Yeah. That is insanity. It's insanity that they would even think that would be okay. Right.

And it's a huge disadvantage if they don't test his opponent. Right. They should test him at the same time. But first of all, they should leave him the fuck alone. Yeah. It's crazy that they did that. I mean, the psychological fuck that is, you know. I mean, he was like, are you fucking kidding me?

Are they really here? Yeah. You know, he couldn't believe it. I mean, he's just trying to stay calm and get ready for a fight. When you were fighting in Pride, did they test at all? Sure they tested, yeah. Yeah, but they didn't give a fuck. We don't know what happened.

They spilt it on the way to the toilet. Ensign told me that they had in the contract, in all capital letters, we do not test for steroids. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He said they were like, letting you know. Oh, yeah. Well, it was like UFC 9 when McCarthy came in and said,

you can't punch, you know, you close fist. Right. Or you will be fined somewhere, sometime, some amount down the road. You know? Right. So, yeah, go ahead, basically is what he said. Oh, is that what he said? Yeah. Oh, okay.

You will be fined eventually somewhere, some amount, you know? Oh, so it was one of those deals. Yeah. I mean, we're going to enforce this stupid rule? You know, that? What was it like working in Pride? I liked it

until until I found out that, you know, I had been robbed a couple of times and they were supposed to have paid your taxes. And then, you know, I went and did the last show as a favor, you know, and I took a tremendous cut. know and i took a tremendous cut and you know then the next day i go in to get paid and the president of pride's not there so fuck sums up and he said yes you know i'm not gonna say his name because you know it's still questionable everything so he said he's on the he's not here he's on the phone oh crap he says don's on

yesterday japanese irs come to our office looking for you he said they're downstairs right now waiting on you oh boy yeah so i had to go down there pay my way out japan oh jesus christ yeah wow yeah there was a lot of weird shenanigans with money over there, right? That was why Bob Sapp wound up leaving, right? They told him they wanted him to fight and he didn't have a contract. Yeah. And the day of the fight, there's still no contract. He's like, look, if I don't have a contract, I'm not going out there.

And then they effectively kind of blackballed him and he never really reached those same heights again. They stopped promoting him, them stop you know well some asswipe over there made the announcement that uh you know the yakuza's was involved with pride you know like that's a shocker i mean yakuza's involved with everything that killed the business over there right yeah was that like the media did that or a journalist yeah a journalist yeah but everybody knew anyway right right yeah was that like the media did that or the journalist did yeah a journalist yeah but everybody knew anyway right right yeah but you're not supposed to publicly announce it because then advertisers don't want to be involved in it right yeah and is that what killed the business

over there yeah they destroyed it so how many years did it run for in its like in its heyday i don't know i did the last one i don't know if it's eight or nine do you know we'll find out because it was like a good solid seven or eight years no it's more than that i'm sorry was it i'm thinking about myself here imagine that yeah because I came in at number 19, right? Was it? Yeah, 19 or 21. I remember the first one was Hickson. Hickson fought the very first one.

It was Hickson versus Dakota, right? Wasn't that number one? I believe so. I don't know. I think that was because I think the way they launched Pride, I do remember that Hickson was the first one. Because the way they launched Pride was by having pro wrestling stars compete in MMA. Right.

And that was one of the big attractions to Pride. Because pro wrestling in Japan back then was gigantic, right? Oh, yeah. Well, the UWF. Remember the UWF? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the UWF. Remember the UWF? Yeah.

That was like the first creation of pride, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Well, you know, they had their guys shooting on each other sometimes. Sometimes. Right. And sometimes not. What that means for people that don't understand what that means, some of the fights were a work, meaning like you knew who was going to win,

you'd worked it out in advance, and some of the fights just turned out to be real fights. And that was a thing that would happen sometimes in Japan with pro wrestling. Right. It would just decide that, and sometimes the opponent didn't know. Right. And the guy would go out and start throwing haymakers at them and kick them and take them down, stomp them, and you're like, whoa. Well, it happened here, too.

I mean, you had Gene LaBelle. Oh, yeah. You know, who was the muscle for his parents, you know? Yeah. You know, and then Roddy Piper was the muscle for a while. Yeah, yeah. Roddy Piper was a muscle for a while. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's a lot of guys who were in pro wrestling were legit combat sports athletes. Right. And some of them were just pro wrestlers. They just got into it just as entertainers. So there was a wide variety. And over in Japan, Takata was kind of, you know, he was a huge superstar over there and he but Hickson would not agree to anything other than a real fight so you watch that fight it's very clear but some of the fights weren't right right and you kind of had to like look at it with a discerning eye I could see a guy get

caught in a heel hook and you like're like, hmm, that looks a little fishy. Well, I remember after Ken Shamrock and I fought, I went to a WWE show here in Tucson, and the Undertaker, he asked me if that was a work. He says, because you both end up in a heel hook. I'm like, well, fuck yeah, we both end up in a heel hook. And I'm like, well, fuck yeah we both end up in a heel hook. I don't know. We both, he had my foot and that was the only thing I could grab. You know?

Shit. That was a shoot, buddy. Yeah. It looked real. Oh, believe me, it was real. Well, Ken was one of the very first guys to really master heel hooks. Yeah. And use those in the UFC early on.

Remember? Yeah. My God. Well, he had a hairl UFC early on. Remember? Yeah. My God. Well, he had a hairline fracture on both my freaking ankles. Did he really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you should have seen them. You know, my ex-wife and I, we would usually go from Japan to L.A., you know, but that

time we stopped in Hawaii, and my ankles were this big, you know, but that time we stopped in Hawaii and my ankles were this big, you know. Just going, if I didn't went the whole way, you know, I wouldn't be able, I could barely walk off that plane. Wow. Yeah, it was a little painful. Yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah. How many fights did you have over there in Pride?

Not a lot. Not a lot. Not a lot. Maybe, what, six or... Six or seven? Yeah. Something along those lines. Who do you think was your toughest fight over there? Oh, jeez.

Takeyama would have to be my toughest fight. I mean, it wasn't the prettiest thing. It was the most iconic. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it wore me out, you know. I can only imagine. Yeah.

Physically and psychologically, I mean, you just, you just, you go, what the hell is going on here? Yeah. I don't know. It was kind of frightening, you know? You said something to me once. I'll never forget this about the Ken Shamrock fight. You said that if you want to be honest,

both of you left a little bit of yourself in that ring, and you were never the same afterwards. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Never were. Yeah. There's some of those fights that you think back, and you think back how you were before the fight and how you were after the fight, and they were just so crazy. So much violence, and it's just...

Well, just the preparation, too. Yeah. I mean, the psychological preparation sometimes is harder than the physical preparation. Yeah. How so? You just got to, you have to separate yourself not only from your family, you know, your wife and your kids and your friends, but the whole world. You know, I mean, I completely understand what it's like to come out of prison, you know? I mean, prison, not jail, but prison for a long time.

Because you are just, like I said, not to be redundant, but I am, but you completely separate yourself from everything. Everything. When you would prepare for these fights, where were you training at the time? There in Tucson. A couple of times I had to leave. For the second Mark Coleman fight. You know, I went over and had Frank Shamrock, you know, train me.

Oh, really? Yeah, and we couldn't train. I was so beat up, you know, at that point in my career. You know, we'd get up, you know, go have breakfast, go get a massage, go to the chiropractor, you know, go to get stretched, go to that. There was just hardly any fighting, you know, just watch the fight on TV, you know, I mean, it was all... Mostly just trying to keep your body healthy.

Yeah, just to show up, yeah. Wow. So what kind of, like, physical training were you able to do when you were that banged up? Not much, you know. Like I said, we would just do stretching and just technique, you know, basically just technique. Really? Yeah. What did you do for conditioning?

Oh, Joe, I don't even remember anymore. Really? For. What'd you do for conditioning? Oh, Joe, I don't even remember anymore. Really? For that fight, yeah. Because Shamrock, Frank in particular, was always a stickler for conditioning. He was always an amazing cardio. Yeah. I mean, that was one of his big weapons, is he would put a pace on guys. That's what he did to Tito. That's what he

did to John Loeber in the rematch. Just put a pace on guys they couldn't keep up with. Oh, Frank was amazing. People forgot about Frank. He was a beast. He was an amazing athlete. Yeah. Remember when he armbarred Kevin Jackson?

Yeah. Won the title? Yeah. No, he was a monster. Yeah. That's one of the things that, you know, I use as an example. You know, he was a gold medalist. Yep. In the hardest that, you know, I use an example. You know, he was a gold medalist. Yep.

In the hardest discipline, you know. And Frank caught him, what, 30 seconds in the first round? Yeah, beautiful. Just beautiful. Yeah. And Jackson's a stud. Oh, yeah. Real stud.

Amazing wrestler. Yeah. Have you ever worked out with him? No. No. Stronger than a fucking ox. Oh, I could only imagine. I mean, all those elite wrestlers, the kind of strength those guys have.

Remember when Royce Alger came over to the UFC? Ensign. Ensign arm barred him. Yeah. Fast, too. Yeah, same thing. Caught him in an arm bar. But so many wrestlers, they just didn't understand what they were getting into.

No. Yeah. That's the thing. You know, they leave those arms out there and boom they're snatched real fast so when you were training with frank how did you hook up with frank how did uh how did that take place and where were you guys training oh hell we were at his house is that was he in california at the time yes sir so you went up there and just trained with him? Yes, sir. Did you camp with him? Because I, you know, my, like my career going up and down, my marriage had a lot of that. So, you know, I needed to get the hell out of town, you know, because.

I get it. Yeah, things weren't going good. So how did you make that connection with frank trying to figure that one out um if that was the second coleman fight so that was after Ken, right? But, you know, I don't know how the hell that happened. But he... I called him. I called him.

You called him. You need some help. Yeah. And he get out. I think because I had fought the French guy, the first French guy, New Year's Eve. First French guy, not LaBanna. No. Who was the other French guy?

French guy, M&A? Huh? Jamie would pull up his car. No, he was a kickboxer. And I boogered his eye up real bad, you know. Who was that? I'm trying to remember. I think it was an Inoki.

I think it was an Inoki show. Nah, that's, it wasn't Dynamite, right? Yeah, it was a Dynamite show, right? Well, that's Nakau. Nakau, Akabono. No, it was a white guy. Cyril. the way Cyril Oh Cyril Abidi

Oh that's right And you got him with a rear naked choke Yeah No keep moving by it Yeah Man So Back then

When you Trained with Frank The Lions Den Was probably the first Real Mixed martial arts team where they were like really prepared them and Miletic fighting systems right Pat Miletic's place and the Lions Den they were two of the very first guys that

were really putting together a real legit MMA team where they had like real like for the time scientific training real technique training and real preparing guys for things you know like you said you they had a team yeah I had a group of guys you know the first group of non-white guys all my guys are Mexican except for a couple white boys. Right, Arizona. Yeah. They're tough, tough guys.

One guy was a former sniper in the SEALs. Another couple guys were former Marines. And what discipline would those guys have, martial arts-wise? Basically judo wrestling boxing too so the same thing i had so when you would prepare for a fight back then did you have like a head trainer that was like steve owen was my head trainer and he it would prepare your camps

and the whole deal yeah steve is amazing you know you'd him the evil yoda you know he is he he was a great uh judo guy um several times national judo champion a couple times world and he's just amazing and he can look at a fight you know five minutes of a fight, and boom, have it, have the game plan drawn up. And so he was one of the first guys that was in your camp that like set everything? He was my judo sensei. Oh. Okay, my first judo sensei was a guy. Fuck me.

Torres. What the? Jeez, I feel like an asshole. No worries. I remember my sensei's name. It happens. What the fuck is his name? Kiyoki.

Kiyoki Torres. Or George Torres, but he goes by Kiyoki. He lives in Hawaii now. But Kiyoki was my first, he ran a kid's judo club down there on Fort Huachuca. And so I started going there on Saturday mornings, and Steve would come down, you know, he would work up at Tucson, be Monday, Tuesday, Thursday nights, and then he'd come down Saturday morning for the kids, you know, but the rest is up at Tucson, so I would drive up there, you know. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday night, I'd go up there and train and jump in the truck and drive home, you know, get home at midnight, 1 o'clock in the morning, you know,

because I would always feed my guys, you know. After we worked out, I'd take them out for dinner. A couple of beers for me. Even in training? Yeah. Oh, hell yeah. Up until the fight? Oh, the night before.

Yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah. Wow. So you and Cowboy Cerrone. Yeah. Cowboy still does that. He keeps drinking. Yeah. Cowboy still does that. He keeps drinking.

Yeah. One of the worst. I lost to a fucking idiot. I shouldn't have lost to. Because my wife at the time decided I was drinking too much and taking too many pills. decided I was drinking too much and taking too many pills. So her and a couple of the guys took my booze and my pills

the night before the fight. And I started going through withdrawals during the fucking fight. No. Yeah. Yeah. That was something someone told me the other day that I could not believe.

They were telling me, and I don't want to name any names, but big-time fighters, particularly kickboxers, that fought on heroin. Really? That fought on pills, that fought on opiates. Yeah, I did that, and that's when my career went to shit. Yeah, and it was just because of all the pain that you were in, right? I mean, you said that by the time the Cyril Abidi fight,

you were already banged up to the point where you could barely train. Yeah. But you think about how long your to the point where you could barely train. Yeah. But you think about how long your career went after that. It's crazy. I mean, you had your— No, that was the Coleman fight. Oh, it was the Coleman fight. Yeah, it was so fucked up. I met Frank.

Frank had trained Cyril for a fight me, and then I called Frank to train me for the Coleman fight. But you had a lot of fights even after that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's kind of crazy. You rolled that motherfucker till the wheels fell off. Yeah. And the frame fell off, man. The frame, yeah.

You've seen the frame. Exactly. They had to redo your frame. Frame of restoration, yeah. Right down to the bare chassis. So when you, your last fight was what, 2011? Somewhere around that? Yes, sir.

It was five months after my fifth back surgery. Wow. Five months after your fifth back surgery, you had a fight. Yeah, stupid. Fucking stupid. But you still want to do it right now. The thing about guys like you, it's like you never lose the itch. Right.

Your body just fails you. Yeah. And the tougher the guy, the more the body starts to fall apart because you're willing to train through pain. You look at guys like, I mean, Cain Velasquez is a great example. One of the greatest of all time. His body just couldn't hang in there. His knees blew out. His back blew out.'t hang in there. His knees blew out.

His back blew out. His neck blew out. His shoulders blew out. He had all these surgeries and eventually just stopped being the guy that everybody knew was Cain. His body just wouldn't do what his mind could do. Yeah, you lose. Yeah. You learn that in amateur wrestling, though.

Yeah. You learn to keep going. Yeah. You learn to keep going. Yeah. You know, I think I first broke my neck when I was in college and didn't know it. I thought I had fucked up my shoulder, you know. Because it was shooting down your shoulder? Yeah. Yeah. you know um because it was shooting down your shoulder yeah yeah and um so what happened was uh dan severance little baby brother rod and i we were roommates and we went down uh to my

parents house um for thanksgiving or something, we were out on those fucking three wheelers. Oh no. Yeah. That's how you did it? Yeah. Oh no. Drinking and going over and, and, um, you know, last, last jump of the day. Oh no.

It ended up being the last jump. Uh, you know, we've been there for a couple couple hours, gone through a few cases of beer, and the truck pulls up, and they get out, you know. Look at the little sissies, you know, because they had the shoulder pads, the knee pads, the gloves, you know, all that, and, you know, laughing at them. And so then I go off, jump, front tire first, boom, boom, boom. Oh, no. Yeah, so I thought I tore up my shoulder. But 20 years later, when they did my neck, the guy said, when did you break your first leg?

You broke your neck, you know. And you didn't know. You'd never broken your neck. No, I didn't know. But I wrestled, you know. I kept, that was in 88, 87. 86, 87. And then I sat out a year in amateur wrestling because of the injury.

Because of your neck? Yeah. Wow. I thought it was the shoulder, but it was the neck. And then I rehabbed it you know and um because they redid the shoulder uh they cut off the end of clavicle bone back then it was how they would solve shit what did they do cut off the end of my clavicle bone they cut off the end of it yeah really. Really? Yeah, because it was just destroyed, so they just lob it off and throw it away. Wow.

Yeah. Holy shit. And. That's early 90s surgeries? Yeah, yeah. Fuck. 80s. 80s?

At the end of the 80s. And then, um, jeez, I'm freaking out. Kurt Angle wrestled in the Olympics with a broken neck, didn't he? Yeah. He won the gold medal with a broken neck. Amazing, yeah. Crazy. Yeah.

There's no one tougher than wrestlers. Yeah. I know I... Fuck. They cut, they fixed the shoulder, cut off the, it was the right shoulder, I think. Yeah, it was the right shoulder and he has the right shoulder and um so they put me bobby douglas put me on a medical scholarship you know so it would open up a scholarship for the team which is what needed to be done and um so i so then i rehabbed it through 87 and then probably through 88 you know I went up

and you know working out with the team all that but I went up to the Las Vegas Southwestern Regional Qualifying Tour tournament for the Olympics. And I won that in Greco and freestyle. And then I went to, which qualified you for the national finals, you know. And so then I went up there for the Greco and got my ass handed to me. You know, I thought, you know, you get lucky every once in a while and think you're good at it. But they wouldn't let me go to the freestyle. You know, they said pick one or the other.

And like a dumbass, I picked the wrong one, you know. But I ended up taking fifth. I think I took fifth that year, fifth or sixth, in the national freestyle tournament, you know. It must have been sixth because they took the first five. And always a bridesmaid, you know. Right. And, but, yeah, Art Martori, you know, was a money guy back then, you know, for the Olympic team almost.

Archie's a great guy. So with all the injuries, when did you first start taking pain medication? Oh, fuck. You know, the first time was in 96, you know the first time was in 96 you know um so this was during the ufc days yeah because that was ufc 8 was what is that 96 yeah that was february 96 and then Crap, Joe. What the hell? Do you remember when you started fighting on him?

No, that was a fucking mistake when that was. Well, what happened, I did. I heard something in the UFC. I broke my hand, right? Or Coleman. Coleman beat the hell out of me. Remember. Coleman beat the hell out of me. Remember how Coleman beat the hell out of me in UFC 10? Yeah.

And so then they, you know, he broke my ocular, I think it is, or occipital, I don't know. And then something else happened. Anyways, then I fought. Mark Hall was my first fight that night. And then I was offered a fight against him in Japan in November, right before, you know, November 96. And Bob Meyerowitz found out that I was going to do that and that Dan was going to do that, you know. And he was pissed because he had the opportunity of ruining the ultimate ultimate too

right and i says come on bob it's mark hall you know come on and uh mark hall was undersized right yes smaller guy tough guy buck 85 yeah idiot are you kidding me yeah i didn't know He's a fucking idiot. Was he? Yeah, he's an idiot. I didn't know. Fucking idiot. I don't know him at all. You'd want to slap him upside the head if you did.

The fucking guy's going around saying that he took a dive. Oh, did he? Yeah, against me at the ultimate ultimate. His second round. Fuck him. Oh. I'd already beat him twice i you know he would be the last person in there i want to take a dive you know but um so i beat gary goodridge you know in the first round ultimate ultimate and And a buddy of mine, Dave Norch, he had gone with me for the fire department.

He was a paramedic, okay? So he hits me up with a line, you know. We put two bags, two or three bags after the Goodrich fight. Oh, yeah? Yeah, which, boom, you know. Fired you right back up. Probably right back fresh as a daisy, you know. All right, you're right back up.

Probably right back fresh as a daisy, you know. And so then I beat Hall, boom, you know, fast. I mean, Tank knocks out his guy, you know. And so, God damn, he's dead. He broke his neck, you know. You hear all these Alabama guys, you know. Was that Steve Nelmark? Yeah.

That was a crazy KO. That was a wild one tank could fucking crack oh man it was it was like one of those puppets you know so we just cut the strings yep we just folded back on that was one of the great chaos of those days yeah well it was amazing. It was. I didn't see it. And then it was you and Tank in the finals? Yep, Tank and I in the finals. Yeah, and you got his back. It was a crazy war, and you got his back and finished him. Well, fuck. I mean, stupid-ass me.

I walk out lumber out there and step sideways, heel, heel. What happens when you stay on your heels, Joe? You get knocked backwards. You get knocked on your ass, you know. You shouldn't be. And stupid ass, I don't know what the hell I was thinking, you know, heel, heel. But as soon as that second heel landed, he hit me, you know, with a jab.

Yeah. Boom, boom, boom. Hard jab, though. Yeah. That motherfucker, everything he did was hard. Damn right. You know, he was like um you want to talk about a guy who could drink yeah i made a mistake of drinking with him one night

him and his buddies at the bar tank it put him away i remember one time uh i was there for i forget which event was but there was a giant brawl that broke out right after i went to bed i i left everybody everybody was downstairs in the after fight area, hanging out, drinking. And it was getting late. So I was like, well, I'm going to go to bed. So I went upstairs to go to bed. And then I heard, like, you just missed it. Apparently, Baliji, Balid Ismail, and Tank got into a brawl.

And it was just chairs flying and all kinds of crazy shit. And I missed it by, like, and there was just chairs flying and all kinds of crazy shit, and I missed it by like 20 minutes. Fucking Brazilians here, they'd fight at the drop of a hat. Drop of a hat. Yeah, fuck. I mean, I remember over here in Pride having breakfast, you know, a couple of times. I was right next to my table. Yeah.

Guys, I'm fucking eating here, you know? Start brawling. Yeah. Well, there were so many brawls back then, right? Charles Crazy Horse Bennett and Vanderlei Silva brawled backstage. Yeah. Yeah. Legendary fights backstage.

Someone should do a documentary on Pride. They really should. They really should. Because it was just a fucking crazy time in martial arts history. And it was also a time when Fedor was in his prime. Yeah. And I think it's arguable Fedor was in his prime yeah and I think it's arguable that Fedor in his prime was the greatest heavyweight of all time yeah yeah it's between my mind it's hard to say because you know like Fabrizio Verdun beat both him and Kane right

but I think he caught Fedor when Fedor was battle-worn and it was pretty deep into his career and also there was testing over in America that wasn't testing in Japan. And then the same thing with Kane. When Fabrizio caught Kane, Kane had already gone through – it had been a pretty long, extensive career. But it's arguable that when he fought Crow Cop, when he fought Noguera, when he fought all those guys over there, it was arguable that Fedor was the greatest. Fedor was the greatest.

There's no reason to even fucking talk about it. You know? I mean, it's simple. If you ever watched the man fight live, it was something you'll never forget you know i mean those things over there they were they were events they weren't just a fight you know you go to you know on a saturday night hey let's go what's the fight you know they were fucking events they're like i said super bowl every three months yeah the women would get dressed up.

The men would, you know, I mean, you planned your whole fucking week around it, you know. Yeah. They'd go and have their dinner, you know, steak dinner, you know, not beer on the back of the pickup, you know. Yeah, it was a big deal. Yeah. It was a big deal. We used to get up in the morning and watch them because they were live from Japan. So they'd be on here, like, I forget what it was.

Five in the morning. Something crazy like that, yeah. And we would watch them live. Yeah, you never went to a Pride? No, I missed it. They offered me a gig commentating at one point. Yeah, they came to meet me in I forget where it was. One of the UFC events.

Back when I was doing the interviews. They offered me a gig to commentate in pride and I was like, oh man. Fucked up. I should have done it at least once. Who owned the UFC? Bob? That was Bob. Bob did back in the day. Bob was such a good guy

but he did not like you going anywhere or doing anything else. He was a good man, but he was solid on loyalty. And he felt that you're betraying him, which is probably the truth at the time. Well, there was so much competition. and there was only, I mean, the UFC was the big thing in America, but Pride was way bigger than the UFC back then in terms of size. It wasn't even close. No.

UFC was doing small places in comparison to what Pride was doing. Well, it was that fucking McCain. Yep, yep, yeah. He was choking them out. And then when Zufa bought the UFC, when the Fertittas and Dana White came along, then they had the business plan, and then they had the money. Even then, I mean, they were real close to bailing. Yeah.

At one point in time, they were $40 million in debt, which is just nuts. Crazy. That was right when the Ultimate Fighter came along, and they had actually talked to Dana on the phone and said, let's try to sell it. And Dana was going to sell it. They were going to start putting out offers and try to see who wanted to buy the UFC. And then I guess Fertitta changed his mind.

I guess they just decided, listen, we'll wait. We'll wait. We'll wait it out. And then they did the Ultimate Fighter, and then boom, it takes off. But apparently, they were literally at the, they were thinking about putting out the offers, and he actually made the phone call and decided to, Lorenzo did, to Dana. And Dana was ready to sell it. And then they changed their mind last minute and then boom look what it is now

it's kind of wild because if they sold it who the fuck knows what would have happened i would have quit for sure i would have stopped doing commentary um they probably would have uh you know they would have had to have somebody that had a lot of media savvy that knew how to market the company and try to rebrand it or something. And they probably would have sold it, and they probably would have lost a lot of money too because before The Ultimate Fighter in 2005, it wasn't really worth that much money. No. But then when The Ultimate Fighter happened and Stephen Bonner and Forrest Griffin fought live on TV

and they had that crazy fucking brawl, and then it became popular. That one fight made the sport. It's wild in a lot of ways that was a defining moment didn't make the sport but it was a defining moment for the sport defining moment for the sport in america right but meanwhile in japan at the same time they were doing the saitama super arena yeah huge events gigantic spectacular crowds 50 60 000 people Spectacular crowds, 50,000, 60,000 people. It was wild. Oh, man. The walk-ins and the crazy pride lady that would introduce everybody.

Her introductions were legendary. Oh, fucking funny. The first time I fought, she called me Dan. Did she? That's funny. Can I get a cup of coffee? Yeah, sure. Water. Oh, fuck.

What do you want? Coffee. Here we go. I didn't know that. I'm sorry, gentlemen. No worries. No worries you want? Here we go. I didn't know that. I'm sorry, gentlemen. No worries. No worries. Thank you.

Thank you. I didn't know. That's right here. Is this my water here? Yeah. Thank you. When you think back, I mean, what a crazy life you've lived. I mean, you lived like a movie life.

You know? Yeah, nobody would believe it. They wouldn't believe it. If it wasn't a movie, it would be a crazy, spectacular movie. For you to go from being a guy who's shooing horses and working in a fire department, all of a sudden you decide, ah, I could do that, and you take a fight. The next thing you know, well, I guess I'm fighting now. Yeah.

To all the way to Japan to kickboxing Jerome LeBanner and to fighting in these giant arenas and doing New Japan Pro Wrestling. It's a crazy life you've lived, Don Fry. It was a fun one. It was a fun one, yeah. And then half the time I'm done, you know. I got my bulldog, Quinn, and if it wasn't for her, I'd have died and went, you know. She's the only reason I'm here now.

Your bulldog? Yeah. Really? Yeah. My kids are grown, you know. They don't have time for me, you know. They're good girls, beautiful, smart, you know, but, you know, they're 20, 21. They have their life.

Yeah. When you think back on all the damage that it did to your body, if you had to go back and do it all again, would you do it again? Bitch, you sweet ass. I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that. I want to do it now columbia works out for me yeah right when you um you see the fighters today and you you know that you're a gigantic part of

the evolution of the sport i mean you're a pioneer you were there in the early days when you see what it what it's like now it's got to be pretty crazy to see and know that you were a vital part of the beginning of this thing. You know, I really don't understand what you're saying about being a vital part. You were one of the legends, man. If you go back and look at the legends of the sport, Don Fry, you're one of the legends, man. Whether you believe it or not, you're one of the fucking OGs. When I told my friends that I was having you on the podcast today, people were like, oh, shit. They were so excited.

People were pumped. People fucking love you, man. They love you because you are you. You are 100% authentic. You wear your heart on your sleeve. You don't bullshit. You're a fucking real man. You're the real deal, Don Fry.

Thanks. Thanks, partner. There's not a lot of people like you yeah probably good good call i mean think about it like what you've done in your life there's not a lot of humans that would have followed your path very few people no they go for the easy route i'm not very smart enough to take the easy route how many uh of those fights do you think think you fought when you were on the pain pills? Oh, shit, Joe. After Shamrock, every one. All of them, huh? Yeah.

You just had to? Yeah, I had no choice. You know. Yeah, my body was so beat up. And then, you know, being a dumbass, you think, okay, I live on these things. I train on these things, you know. I can fight on these things. Yeah.

That's stupid. I think there was a lot of people doing that, though. That's what my friend was telling me the other night. He was telling me, look, man, you don't know, know but i'm telling you a lot of those guys were fighting on heroin they're fighting on opiates i never did the heroin but opiates it's the same thing it's you know it's opiates yeah i i did that um what was that shit kerr was on oxycontcontin? No. Percocets? The injectables. Oh, injectable. Oh, I don't know what that is.

From the smashing machine? Yeah. That movie was a wake-up call for a lot of people, huh? Yeah. I never saw the thing. It's crazy. I saw bits and pieces, but... It's a crazy fucking documentary.

Yeah. And they caught him. You know, that wasn't the purpose of that film. The purpose of that film, when they started making that documentary, was when Mark Kerr was in his prime. And what a fucking specimen that guy was, right? Right, right. And they wanted to document this guy who was this fucking elite super athlete wrestler

who was the smashing machine. That's what they nicknamed him over there. And he was just killing everybody. And during the process of filming it, they realized like, wow, this guy's addicted to pain medication. And he was real open about it and he showed them everything.

And then you got to see the two, he, they caught him at, during the filming, right when the wheels were falling off. So it was just, just complete dumb luck that that documentary became sort of a cautionary tale yeah I know that back then around that time some Hollywood producer came out to the house and he wanted to do one of one of those shows you know but I was my body was starting to fall

apart so bad and I'm like I don't know how much longer I'll be able to keep this going yeah and I do know the kids kids were little you know wanted to or less than that and i didn't want i didn't want these people in my house right you know because you know i just had the kids and then like you said the wheels were falling off man and and i knew i knew things were about to go to you know, but I didn't want to tell anybody that. Right. Did anybody know other than your trainers? Yeah.

Did your wife know? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. When did you, were you thinking you weren't going to be able to do this much longer? Were you trying to figure out something else to do with your life? Of course. Of course.

It's hard for fighters, especially when you're making that much money right yeah and that's all you know right i mean all i've known is physical you know fireman horseshoer you know or farrier you know um fighter uh everything was physical and and then you know you're about to lose it all yeah you know you're about to lose it all. Yeah. You know you're about to lose it all. Right. That's the untold story of fighters before and after their careers. During camps, all you see is the fights. Yeah. Everybody sees the fights, and the fights are amazing,

but most people have no idea the kind of pain and injury guys are going through just with almost every camp yeah just shit joe you know i wake up at six in the morning now and it takes me six hours to to get beyond the the the kitchen you know does it it? Yeah, you know. I'm getting better. I've made it outside a couple of times, you know, before noon. Wow. And what kind of medications do they have you on to deal with all this?

Now I'm on morphine. Hydromorphone, I think it's deloxid, and morphine. And it's not enough, but I don't want to go. I haven't had a drink since September of 2016. Really? Yeah. I ain't going gonna lie to you. I'd like to have one.

So, what's the problem with the drinking with the pills? Well, you know, that's what my ex-wife claimed. But,

yeah, shit, it, I didn't think it was that bad, but, you know. You're a fucking animal, though. I don't remember, I don't think it was that bad, but, you know. You're a fucking animal, though.

I don't remember what happened, you know. Yeah. When you get to taking the pills and the alcohol, you're not always knowing what you're saying. Right. I insulted a lot of people, you you know but it wasn't my words it was words that i didn't create it was i was like repeating shit i had heard you know right and just out of it yeah yeah yeah and yeah it wasn't wasn't something that was, you know, I don't hate anybody. Right.

You know, when you're peeled up and you're drunk, you spew a lot of hatred. Right. Especially when you're constantly in pain, too. Yeah. Oh, fuck, you're miserable. Just being a miserable prick. Are you constantly in pain right now? No, just 90 90 of the time so not constantly no no there's a good 10 there yeah so even sitting here like with this thing

that you have on your chest is this like a back support it's supposed to yeah it's supposed to be on my belly yeah it's like what does that thing do uh Like a weightlifting belt? Yeah, a heavy-duty belt. It's nice. I mean, it's just big in the back. It looks like Ric Flair's championship belt. And just to keep everything together? Yeah, support it, you know, give it strength, yeah. But even with all the pills, you're still in pain.

Oh, yeah. So what do the pills do? Just take a little bit of the edge? They knock the edge off so that you can get going. You know, fuck Joe. Like I said, first surgery was May 2010. You know, things went really bad in 08, you know, when my father passed away. And I could only walk 40 steps, you know.

It would take me half an hour to get out to the barn to feed the horses, you know. I'd go 40 steps, sit down. 40 steps, sit down for five, ten. The crazy thing is, how many times did you fight after that? You fought at least twice after that. Yeah. Fuck, I fought. I don't know.

You got the card. The record? You fought when you had been in that condition. That's really crazy. Really stupid. Well, you're a wild motherfucker, man. I would expect nothing less. What are you doing with yourself these days?

You got to feed the family. I understand. I understand. Your toxic masculinity shirt. Yeah. Dan and Don's toxic masculinity. Yeah. Is that you and...

Mr. Severn. Severn? Yes. What are you guys doing with that? What is this shirt? We have a podcast. Do you really? Yes, sir.

What's it on? It's on everything? Apple, all that jazz? Partner beats the hell out of me, huh? There it is. Dan and Don's Toxic Masculinity Podcast. How is Dan doing? Dan's doing great. Dan's amazing, man. He's got some Masculinity Podcast. How is Dan doing? Dan's doing great.

Dan's amazing, man. He's got some wild stories, too. I want to get him in here as well. You got to. You have to. I mean, because he was there at the beginning. The very beginning, yeah. You got to get him.

He was UFC 2, right, wasn't he? No, I think 4. 4 or 5. Was it? Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah. wasn't he no i think four four or five was it okay yeah i mean yeah i came in eight i think that was um all right this thing started in 93 but actually 94 because there's only one event in 93 right

you know and that one is hard it was hard to find back in the day they don't i think there's something going on with the rights to it. So the first one I saw was in 94. I watched a videotape of it. I got it from a videotape store back in the days when you have like blockbuster video and shit like that. I still got a couple VHS tapes. Do you? Yeah.

I don't know if – I think I might have one or two that's not even opened yet. Wow. They're probably worth a lot of money you think so yeah fucking ebay those are classics now if they're not even opened yeah yeah i bet you could ebay the shit out of them especially if you sign it i got i got a couple of my t-shirts you know original t-shirts yeah oh really And then I've got a couple of the programs. Oh, wow. Yeah.

I'll have to find one. I'll send it to you. Yeah, please do. What was funny was the program from Ultimate Ultimate 2. You know, I mean, back then it was like on on paper you know eating half by 11 paper and they just take down the xerox machine you know and then staple it up and hand it out yep and that was it wow yeah it was funny but um going back to ultimate ultimate See, I didn't want to fight Mark Hall, you know, because I had already beaten twice. And I knew there was going to be bullshit involved.

I just knew there was going to be bullshit involved. How so? Because we had the same manager, you know. And I guess, why fight him three times in the fucking room? I wanted to fight um there's a black guy whose name was ty boden yeah i don't know if that was really ty bow but ty boden you know i don't know that's his real name or not but he had a um for his photo he had a karate uh guy with his head cut out and taped on. They're glued on.

I said, I want to fight that guy. And they're like, no, you can't. You already beat a black guy. If you beat two black guys, you're going to live crazily. Come on. Who said that? Your manager? No, I don't know who said that.

Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah, it's one of those stupid fucking things that you believe now, but not 20 years ago. I wish someone was filming all those events back then. Oh, yeah. Because they were in these weird little rickety arenas. And it was so strange back then.

I remember the first one I did, which was in Dothan. I remember even being there while it was happening. I'm like, this is the crazy. The fact that I'm even here, this is the craziest thing ever. You had to fly in propeller planes. You had to do it in these weird towns where they let it happen because it was mostly illegal in most of the states in the country. Well, look what happened to Kevin Randleman. He slipped on a pipe a pipe yeah and fell

and banged his head yeah yeah i mean how dirty is an arena have to be you fall on pipes yeah he slipped on a pipe and fell and banged the back of his head off the ground and couldn't fight yeah yeah i think he knocked himself out yeah yeah and you know how hard it was to knock out Randleman? Yeah, right? I think he was the most athletic competitor ever to be in the UFC. He was a tremendous athlete. Yeah. Tremendous.

He was so fast. Remember when he knocked out Krokop in Pride? Yeah. Nobody saw that coming. No. I mean, Krokop was one of the most elite strikers of all time. And Randleman was such a powerful wrestler that he was worried about the shot. He faked the shot and came in with a left hook.

Yeah. Yeah. Randleman was an amazing athlete. Amazing. Like I said, I think he was the greatest athlete ever to be in the UFC. Do you ever see the holes, the staff infections that guy had? Yeah, but I don't remember. Oh, my God.

They were crazy. He took photos of them and put them online. He had holes in his armpit area where you could see all the muscle tissue. Like, it was wide open. Oh, jeez. It was so nasty that the staff had gotten through his skin and left these big abscesses. I'm talking three, four-inch holes. Jamie, see where you can find it because it's one of the most fucked up things.

You have to see it. A lot of folks don't know how bad staph infections can get. I always show them Kevin Randleman's injuries. Look at that. Look at that hole. Look how bad that is. Crazy, right? Did they ever close up?

Yeah, they've closed up, but, I mean, he died young. I mean, it had to contribute. Yeah, look at his knee. Is that his knee over there in the bottom? Yeah, they've closed up. But, I mean, he died young. I mean, it had to contribute. Yeah, look at his knee. Is that his knee over there in the bottom? That'd be somebody else's. That's somebody else's knee. That's somebody else's knee? Yeah.

Okay. Another horrible staph infection. Staph is some scary fucking shit. It is nasty. It is. I had that. Yeah. Like I said, jeez.

I don't know which surgery it was, but I... The back. Yeah, and jeez, what the hell? I know that it had gotten in the surgeon that did my first replacement, he was from South Korea. He was a Harvard graduate, you know, put himself through college, you know, going to Harvard. And he said he almost vomited. Wow. You know, during the surgery.

Jesus Christ. And then that was in 10 or 11. No, it was 12 or 13. And then the one that was in my spinal cord the second time, that was in 17 or 18, you know, in Tucson. That's one of the biggest problems with surgeries right yeah infections yeah and uh they they were like yeah we got you just in time you know what's fucked up about the whole thing was that um they had put me in the the first doctor didn't believe it. They couldn't find anything, you know. So they put me in an old folks home, you know, where you go to die, basically. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. And fuck. And I would wake up at 4 o'clock in the morning just screaming because the pain medication would wear off. And I'd wake up screaming, you know, I need some pain medication. And they'd go, you're not due for another two hours. Turn off the light, close the door, go down the hall.

Oh, my God. And I'd be screaming. And I'd call up my buddy Jeff. You've got to get me out of here. You've got to get me. And so I finally got a hold of the fire department. They came down to get me. I'm screaming, this is the infection in my spinal cord.

And I'm like, yeah, fuck. And the guy's like, you don't quit cussing, I'm going to decline to take you. Oh, my God. I'm like, what? I look at this captain. I said, you're kidding me, right? And he says, no.

When I was in the fire department, we put up with all kinds of fucking cussing and all that. He says, things have changed, man. Jesus. Jesus. Yeah. I mean, and I was this close to buying the farm. Wow. You know.

So the doctor just missed the infection. Yeah. And so then they finally get you in. They got in there and they said my spinal cord was all lumpy and swollen and all that. And then they just kind of poked it and all that stuff come out. Oh, Jesus. So this jackass fucking paramedic, you know, didn't want to take me because I was cussing. That's hilarious.

Yeah. Yeah. What a life you've had, Don Fry. What a life. If I had Don Fry. What a life. If I had the money, I'd get a lawyer to go after me. And then or a war whoop his ass. Just give me five minutes in the ring, that's all. So how often are you doing this podcast with Dan now?

Excuse me, sir. That, it's gone down to, I think it's been three weeks now. We were supposed to do it every week. And then Dan went back to Michigan. Dan owns an island. He does? Yeah, one of the lakes there, you know. So he went back there to redo his cabin. Oh, really?

Yeah. Oh, that's cool. So he's got like a small island that you have to row your boat out to? Yeah. Nice. A little one-acre place, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah.

Oh, that's cool. That's cool. A one-acre island. Yeah, that's sweet. That's pretty badass. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, I'm envious of him.

I'm happy for him. That guy had how many MMA fights? He must have had 100. He's had over 100, yeah. Crazy. And the thing is, he's got him and there's three guys that had over 100 fights. Jeremy Horn. Yeah, him and Jeremy have winning records.

Which is pretty crazy. Yeah, the other guy does that. Shannon the Cannon. Yeah. Right, yeah. I don't want to say his name. Yeah, only said Jeremy have winning records. Which is pretty crazy. Yeah, the other guy does that. Shannon the Cannon. Yeah. Right, yeah. I didn't want to say his name. Yeah, well, we only said one part of it. Yeah.

Well, listen, Don, we got some barbecue for you. All right, Burton. You're tired of talking to me, am I? No, you're great, man. But I know you've got to be hungry. I know you eat every hour. Yeah, shit. It's been a pleasure, sir.

I really appreciate it. I'm sorry. You're awesome, man. Yeah, shit. It's been a pleasure, sir. I really appreciate it. I'm sorry. You're awesome, man. Rich, I wanted to bring Rich because, you know, when we go to a fight, I get tunnel vision, you know. So I only, you knowcentrate on 25-30% Of what's going on You know Rich is

Taking care of the other 70% You know Rich or Or Steve Or somebody you know So You're missing 70% Of the story

No listen What I got was gold What I got was gold I'm telling you though Rich has got some good shit Yeah well I'll talk to him Sometime too You're gonna have to

You're gonna have to come out To my house man Alright I would love to Yeah sometime, too. You're going to have to come out to my house, man. All right, I would love to. Yeah? Which part of Arizona are you at? Tucson. The next time I'm in Tucson, I'll come out. I do gigs out there sometimes.

Yeah, I'm in North Tucson. I'm only like an hour away from Phoenix. Okay. Mesa. I'll make that happen. Tempe, yeah. All right. That'd be great.

Don, you're the fucking man. Thank you, brother. Thank you. Appreciate you very much, man. Thank you. Thank you. Always a pleasure.. Don, you're the fucking man. Thank you, brother. Thank you. Appreciate you very much, man. Thank you. Thank you. Always a pleasure. Don Fry, ladies and gentlemen.