The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #123 with BJ Penn

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Joe is joined by former UFC Welterweight & Lightweight Champion and current Republican candidate for Governor of Hawaii., BJ Penn. https://www.bjpenn.com/

Ladies and gentlemen, the future governor of Hawaii, BJ Penn! What's going on, Joel? What's happening, brother? Good to see you. Good to see you, man. You're dedicated to this, man. Yes. I need a shirt. You got it.

I need one. I need to wear a pen for governor. Thank you. If I wear it in Hawaii, will I get mugged? Will they attack me and duct tape me and throw me in the back of a police van? They'll cheer you on, and then you got to tell them, are you guys registered? How is it going? First of all, what made you decide?

It was the COVID lockdowns, right, that made you decide? You know what? That's the, you know, people ask me, they go, would you be running for office if this pandemic didn't happen? And I tell them all the same thing. I say, this is the straw that broke the camel's back. I've always noticed the problems here with the economy, how anti-business they are, how we've all,

since I was in high school, we've always been in last place, our education you know so uh yeah when you say anti-business like how are they anti-business as far as uh with the regulations it takes so long you know you go to the planning department and they hold you up for another eight months and it's just you know the taxes are so high we got the highest uh the highest state income tax and what is the state income tax in hawaii um what is i don't think i don't got the exact number right now but we talk about that yeah we talk about that often well i think california is like 13

something 13 plus percent there's even talk there about raising it up. You know, it's it's it's a shame that you feel that everything is that bad, that you like you feel called to do it. But I know you and I know you wouldn't do this unless you really felt like there was a need for change. You're not a guy that like wants to be run in the government. You're a guy who just doesn't want to be fucked with and pushed around and when you see But you consider your people your friends your family your your neighbors Getting their businesses fucked over and getting getting locked out of work and having Regulations put in place to make difficult to make it difficult to start a business in the first place Mm-hmm

So what would you do different in terms of like, what are they doing? Like you're saying like planning and regulations. Like what is that about? Is that about concerns for the environment because you're on an island? Like what is that? I don't know why they're just so slow. They're just so slow with that stuff. Do you think it's just inefficient or you think maybe they're overwhelmed?

Like what do you think it is? I think inefficient. And I think, you know, let's just take, I see this happen a lot when they start regulating something. I mean, here we were doing MMA in Hawaii. You remember how big MMA got. Rumble on the Rock, son. Yeah. I remember you put on your own promotion.

That was fantastic. Oh, thank you. Come on, man. That was like in the early days of MMA, Rumble on the Rock was classic. That was something. You had some fucking great fights. We did. We did.

We had Tank Cabot. We had everybody in there. You had great fights. As far as like a lot of times, unfortunately, with like smaller promotions when they try to branch off away from the UFC, they can't get top tier talent. You know, you get guys that are on the way out or you get guys that maybe couldn't compete with the best of the best. But Rumble on the Rock was the shit, dude. It was. How many did you do?

You do two? No, we had a bunch of Rumble on the Rocks, actually. How many did you do? We must have did. I think we had five or six of them. Oh, wow. But you know what happened? Elite XC came in, bought everybody up, except for King of the Cage.

They didn't sell. And then they went down, and they crashed everybody's car. It was almost like it was a, not a conspiracy, like, let's send these guys in to buy everybody and crash everybody. Well, I think BJ, it's just people saw money in it. You know, because I remember those days. I remember people asking me questions. There was a lot of people asking questions.

How come it's only the UFC? Why aren't there other organizations? Everybody thought it was easy. And then Elite XC came along, and Kembo Slice, and they had some fun fights, right? They did have some fun fights. I really enjoyed that time. But anyway, a guy shows up, and he says, Hey, BJ, I'm here from the state.

We're here to regulate you guys. And I'm thinking, after we got our faces smashed in for the last 20 years, now you show up. Now it looks like there's a little money here. Now you guys show up. And then they just tanked the whole thing, tried to do all these. You couldn't even give water to the amateur fighters or you were paying them. Yeah, that's just how strict they got.

Well, what's Ronald Reagan's best line? Me and Lorenzo talked about it's Ronald Reagan's best line? Me and Lorenzo talked about it. Ronald Reagan's best line, the nine most terrifying words in the English language. I'm from the government and I'm here to help. So how do they stop you from giving water to amateur fighters? Explain that.

Right? They just walk in and they just said, you guys can't have this. You guys can't be giving. These are amateurs. You guys can't give them anything You guys can't be giving. These are amateurs. You guys can't give them anything. You can't even give them water? Bottles of water.

You couldn't even have that in the back. That's how strict. I think they just go. So they have to bring their own water? You know. Do the fighters have to carry their own water personally? Back then, I mean, these were just examples of how. And you saw, remember how big the Super Bowl was?

Remember how big Egan was fighting? Huge. Jason Miller, Fala Nikol, Robbie Lawler, Trigg, everybody. Wasn't that where Vitor got his debut as well? That too, right? Against John Hess. And Hess was pretty tough, actually. Yeah, he had his own system, right?

Like SAFTA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The early days, BJ. The early Yeah. The early days, BJ. The early days. The early days. Yep. The early days.

We know about, me and you, we know about, right? Yeah, man. We know some history. You can't get far in martial arts or I say many things if you don't know the history of the whole thing. No, but it's really been like an honor to be there early and to get to see it and see where it is now for me as like a fan. It's like,

I'm like a little kid, man. Every week when the UFC is around, I'm like, Oh shit, it is going down. Still, still love it.

Yes, it is. Oh my God. It's still the most exciting sport, you know? No doubt. Um, when,

uh, are you done? Are you done fighting a hundred fighting 100 i'm done you're done i'm done 100 and it was hard for me to get out after being in there for 20 years i mean that's your identity yeah you know and and then i just kind of got into trying to be a father you know and I was doing that thing try to be around more and then and then all this stuff happened and I find myself in here but I do think all the blood all the tears all the sweat all the all the ups and downs all the good media all the bad media all of that was to prepare me for for you know for this kind of you know I I see like everything that they're gonna throw at me I can kind of see like well

I could have been through that yeah yeah just the mental warfare the mental warfare that a fighter has to go through I mean my god there's nothing like it in all sports and you know when I first I first decided to get into this, I was like, you know, I was just retired, so I wasn't trying to keep my everything, you know, perfect in public. I was just running around trying to, I was just a guy trying to come off of a 20-year journey of being the baddest man on the planet and then i so it was tough it was really tough to get over you know that identity so as as time

went you know i was just living my life some more ups and downs i like i say you know sometimes i was judged fairly other times i wasn't you know and well bj judged fairly. Other times I wasn't, you know. Well, BJ, when you were on top, you were one of the baddest motherfuckers on earth. You really were. You were a guy who went all the way up to heavyweight to fight Lyoto Machida. I mean, I remember that fight. I mean, you did some wild shit, dude. And you were strangling a lot of fucking people, man.

And for jiu-jitsu guys, like for all my jiu-jitsu guys, you you were the fucking man because you were a smaller guy who choked out matt hughes you know who was so fucking good at the time man and matt hughes was a tank when you got his back and choked him everybody's like oh shit people forgot they forgot those times bj and you, there was a run like the Sean Shirk days, Diego Sanchez days. You were a scary motherfucker, dude. You were a scary motherfucker. You were tuned in. When you were tuned in, man, you were something fierce.

I always tell people you have to judge a fighter by the heights they reached, not where they fell afterwards or the up-and-coming fights. You've got to judge them by the heights that they reached You like a guy like Olivera. He's a great example. He's had some losses He's been knocked out, but you can't you got to judge him by the height now What I gotta be you got to be accurate and then maybe he can only sustain that for a few years at the like Fedor could always yeah for a few years at the tippity-top of performance yes but you got to judge them from that yeah I it makes me sick when people judge them by their

worst performances you know for you that your best performances were spectacular you had some crushing performances when you were training with Marinovich and they got you in tip-top magoo shape dude you were terrifying when you had that crazy gas tank man I I did I loved it you know uh one of the Marinovich uh wait what's what's Marinovich Marv yeah well Marv passed away yeah but Gary's at my house in Hawaii right now he's training some football teams or something and he he has to come down and it's great to have how did how did that connection happen because they basically changed the way you did strength and conditioning right yes well how did that how did this introduction happen they uh yeah how did it my brother met

how did i run into them i forget how exactly but i think my brother introduced me to them and and when they they were just geniuses, man. And no matter how good you are, they were 50 years ahead. I remember we were at UCLA or something, and they had a little cone pattern, and they had me run it to see my agility, and Marv said, well, that's too slow. And the lady said, well, how do you know? And he said, because I made it up.

These guys were just ahead of everybody. And they were the guys with the NFL combine and everything was speed because he noticed that the strongest guys who had the strongest squat, the biggest bench press and all that, they had the lowest numbers on the field. And then that's how we started to put in the agility, the speed, the movement, the reflexes and going back. So they were really ahead of their time. Yeah, it was wild to watch, man.

They looked like they were torturing you. You know what? Looking back now, I see everybody and I look at them all. Who eats the most at the buffet? The hungriest one. And that's the whole thing. No matter what. I'll look and I'll just be like, is he still hungry?

That's the only question. Or does he still want to eat as much? Because literally a lot of these guys, they haven't ate filet mignon before. They haven't ate lobster. And they're still thinking about what that's going to taste like when they finally get the opportunity to buy that for their family. Yeah, there's like a balance, right, of how long you can maintain that hunger. Yes.

How long can you maintain that ferocity? Yep, it has nothing to do with who's the best. It's who wants it the most. That's what it is. And that's what I thought about. I mean, I kind of knew that about martial arts. I mean, you go in there and you'd be, right, as quick and as violent and as intimidating as possible when you get in there. But believe me, I believe just like me, even at my best, I'm like, what can I get?

What can I do to make the referee stop this? How can I make the referee stop this thing? Because you're nervous, right? The hero and the coward, they're both scared. But the hero is going to step forward. Yeah, you were a wild motherfucker in your prime, brother. You were a wild motherfucker. You were fun to watch.

The Dean Thomas fight, there was a lot of fights that were like, holy shit. Nothing else mattered to me in my life at that time than being the toughest and most skilled martial artist on the planet. And just fighter. I didn't consider myself a martial artist i just thought of myself as a fighter i'll beat you up you you were you were certainly doing

that man and so when did you did you continue that kind of strength and conditioning routine or did you stop doing it after a while um people start to fall apart and different ideas and coaches start to fight with each other and you know and i that's what happened with with that stuff marv kind of went his own way because as you get six weeks out from the fight your boxing coach is screaming he's got a spar he's got a spar. He's got to spar. And then the other guy is like, no, this is enough. And they start going, and then it has a reaction on you. Let's explain it to everybody because this is the two different philosophies. The Marinovichs believe that you already know how to fight.

All you need to do is just get in ridiculous condition. And so they were just going to put you through that. And what did you do, like light drills other than that, like hitting put you through that. And what did you do? Like light drills other than that? Like hitting pads? Like what kind of stuff did you do? But no sparring, right? Maybe not even pads.

Just different things. Speed, a lot of good stuff. We'd do ladders. We would do that water workout stuff. And they thought that that was more important than anything. Yes, and it was very important. I will never say that it wasn't. And then on the other side, people say, do you coach?

Do you train? I say, no, but if I did, I'll tell you what I would do. I would show up to the gym. I'd tell another coach that had his fighter, and I would say, hey, coach, can my boy get a couple rounds with your boy tomorrow? And then I'd look at my guy and go, kick his ass tomorrow. And then I'd leave him and make and go kick his ass tomorrow and then I'd leave him and make him go home and think about it all night because the act of the physical act

of fighting that ain't a fight it's going home and thinking about it all night long anybody can get into a fight real quick in school but when they say meet me at the park after and the whole school shows up now that's the fight you know or I'll meet you in four months you know like for a UFC card isn't that amazing that's when it gets wild right when you plan in these fights months out and everybody gets to know that it's coming yes but that that's it sleeping with that that is that's what it's all about sleeping with it controlling it internalizing it that was one of the things that seems to weigh heavy on Aldo when he was meeting up with Connor Like particularly for the first fight

For the first fight that Connor fought for the title when he knocked him out quick It seemed like Aldo was emotionally invested In in that fight because Connor had talked so much shit for so long they'd promoted that thing for months and months right Connor was just disrespectful grabbed his belt nobody was ever like that with Aldo everybody always was respectful of him he was dangerous yep I mean Aldo in his prime again in his prime he was a bad motherfucker yep that Chad Mendes knockout in Brazil. Yes. I mean, think of some of the Aldos amazing, the Uriah Faber fight. Amazing. Yep.

Dude, Aldo in his prime was a fucking wizard. Right? Yep. And it's amazing that he has the hunger he has today, still fighting. Well, he looks really good right now at 135. He looks really good. Yes, he does. Yes, he does.

Proud of that guy. Yeah, he doesn't look like he's lost anything in getting down to that weight. It's just like he's doing it the right way. The fucking scientists that can get people to do that now. Those weight cutting scientists. They're amazing. Those guys, they got it down to like every gram of salt you're going to take into your body and how much water. Right.

What is it? Three? Is it three? A calorie of a carbohydrate holds. They know exactly how much water each carbohydrate holds in your body. When you hear those guys talk about weight cutting and they start breaking out notepads and writing down your exact body weight and how much you can take off. Well, you see all of that. When they asked me about what did you learn from MMA

that you can bring into this governor thing, to this work, and that's what I always say because I don't know all the answers that I'll be asked, but I got a team of people who do, and that's what I always say because I don't know all the answers that I'll be asked but I got a team of people who do and that was MMA right we got our jiu-jitsu guy we got our boxing coach we got our kickboxing coach we got our strength and conditioning coach we got our our nutritionist we got our you know and that's that's what it's about surrounding yourself with the best team I mean you ask me hey when did you win that belt and I'll say oh we won the belt on this day because it really is it's always team. And even you sitting here with the martial arts, right? When you think about it, you think about your sensei and the people who've helped you

build your martial arts game. And it's a team. Yeah. You can't do it by yourself. It's impossible. Nope. I mean, you do get into arguments and you do say, hey, when the bell rings, everybody else is going to sit out. I'm going to stand up. But, you know, you do. Really? Because the team argues, you know. Right. Everybody gets into it.

But you have to have someone teaching you. There's no way you can learn. I mean, even if you're learning off videotapes, someone teaches you. Yeah. Everything I know I've been taught. I'm not going to say I made up anything, but maybe somebody didn't show me some stuff, but it's already been done. But you added your own flavor to a lot of shit. And one of the things that you did early on that captured a lot of people was your dexterity of your legs.

They were like, oh, that's a big advantage because you have crazy flexible legs and your leg dexterity, your ability to move your legs is pretty extraordinary. And when you would trap guys in your legs, you could see that to them, like this is a new experience. You know? I never knew about that until I did jujitsu.

You know, I never knew I was flexible. Never knew I was strong. I was kind of just a skinnier kid is why and but so that's why i always say they say so what do you have to be a strong or flexible and i say you need both because you can't have your leg on your face and you just have the guy push it you got to be able to lift him off there right you know i always say that you need you need to be strong and you need to be flexible you know one or the other you're okay but when you got them both you're dangerous when

you you would do a lot of wild uh band stretches too right you did stretches with like i'd always i'd always stretch i mean there's probably some old videos where i could throw my leg behind my head yeah without your without my hand. Without my hands. Yeah. And I do both of them. I mean, wasn't it really cool to think to show people that you could do that? But I could do it. It's cool for jiu-jitsu people.

Yeah, yeah. Jiu-jitsu people are the people that would be impressed by this. Like, look at this. Here it is. Watch this. This is insane. He just throws his leg behind his head without using his hands. That's crazy.

People don't understand how hard that is to do. That's so hard to do. That's insanely hard to do. That's funny. But your guard, because of that, was so dangerous. Because you could do shit. And you could sweep people in ways that they didn't understand how you were using your leg so well. You know what?

I would always tell people. Because I've been in would always, like, tell people, like, why? Because I've been in those positions where, like, are you going to let him pass or are you going to do something about it? You know what I mean? And that's what it, right? You're right there. You're in the open division, and the guy's almost ready to pass your guard in the final,

and you're up by two points, and are you going to do something? That's kind of like how when I was fighting Matt Hughes, I'd never wrestled. I mean, I wrestled a little bit in junior college, but nothing like Matt Hughes. We were jujitsu guys. We always have that in our... It's hard for us to become wrestlers, you know?

But everybody's like, how'd you get so good at wrestling? How'd you stop Matt Hughes from taking you down? And I just said, I just decided one day I'm not going to let him take me down. I just said I just decided one day. I'm not gonna let him take me down I just decided we're gonna go out there. He's not good and that's what it is. And if I fall down real quick I'm gonna get back up, you know, and it's just a decision. Well, you always have bizarre balance There's a video of someone trying to take you down with a single and you're hopping around The the ring with one leg and they just can't fucking take you down.

But it might be training footage. It might be inside a cage. I think it's with Kenny Johnson because I was looking at that gif the other day, and so he was trying to grab my back leg. It's crazy. That's crazy agility. Man. Your balance and your agility in your prime was fucking fantastic.

It was very unusual. That was getting ready for the Shirk fight. Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah sure he never really went for any takedowns but i think he would have had a hard time the shark fight um was that before marinovich yes that was before marina that was just me and jason perillo and my old coach rudy valentino i don't know if you remember him he had the mustache he'd walk out with me a lot What were you doing for strength and conditioning back then? Doing some, I guess, just lifting like bodybuilder stuff. Oh, really? Yeah, just lifting bodybuilder stuff and training a lot, though.

So it was just mostly just martial arts training? Yeah, and I was training with Matt Linlin a lot. I was with Team Quest a lot. We were kind of going back and forth. Because that was a destructive performance, too. And Sean Shirk, like people forget, that guy was a beast back then. He was a lot. We were kind of going back and forth. Because that was a destructive performance, too. And Sean Shirk, like, people forget. That guy was a beast back then. He was a beast.

He was. He was a fucking tank. He was. Holy shit. He was. I hope that guy's doing great now. Me, too. I haven't talked to him in forever.

That guy was built like a superhero. Yeah, he was. He had crazy cardio, too. Remember those bananas workouts that he used to do? Yeah. He's the one who kind of made up a lot of them like right and you know before him rich franklin really franklin did a lot of crazy wow so that's kind of i could see that that kind of go in that direction i could see

yeah you know what they built today's workouts are kind of built around what they do. Yeah. Right? I remember CrossFit kind of came out and then they did that fight gone bad for me. That was amazing that I was there when the CrossFit started. Just so happened up in Santa Cruz, you know, and they were living out of their garage and they put it together and him and his wife did so well. And they did so well that they're not together and they're still good friends. That's how well they did. so well and they did so well that they're not together and they're still good friends that's how well they did but all that uh functional fitness stuff came about and that's when steve maxwell was doing a lot of training he was training diego at the time yep all this is what everybody does today sean shirk workouts yeah this was yeah back in the day sean shirk was doing like all this

crazy like rope work shit and plyometrics and all kinds of wild strength and conditioning. And he was known for having this spectacular gas tank. Who was that guy with him? That guy must be one of the guys who figured this stuff out. Yeah. I mean, they had it all broke down. And now basically every camp has something like this. They just had a thing on Gilbert before he fought Hamzat,

and he was doing a very similar type of, you know, you do one station here on a bike, one station here you're picking up and slamming a heavy bag over and over again, and they're just going through station to station just like this. I was wondering, I didn't get to watch the exact whole fight, but I heard Hamzat and and gilbert was a great fight and i was wondering i was waiting for hamzat to get in there with with uh one of the one of the greatest fighters and and i heard it was just amazing and hamzat did what he was supposed to do he stepped up and he fought and gilbert of course we know he's gonna fight and he can knock you out too

so the amazing thank both of those guys guys for putting that on for us. Yeah, it was fucking incredible. And, you know, it's not a fight that a lot of guys were jumping to take, but Gilbert will fight anybody. Gilbert will fight anybody. Without a doubt. And that was a close fucking fight. I mean, that was a close fight.

Gilbert had him fucking hurt. Really? He hit him with a big right hand like really when was that in the towards I because I didn't see the fight was that middle fight I don't remember if that was the second or the third but he heard it was the second where he hurt him yeah he dropped him wow and they were in a wild scramble though that dude's a dog Hamzat is a dog right he gets cl. He's just on you. Even hurt, he dove on a double and took Gilbert down.

I mean, he's an animal. Right? I mean, and to not have that much experience in the big fights and to beat a guy like Gilbert, I mean, that's saying something. It's saying something. It was such a close fight. Such a close fight. There's a lot of people that thought that Gilbert could have got the decision.

It was that close. But it was an incredible performance. It was an honor to sit there and watch, I'm sure. For sure. It was wild. I mean, Gilbert's something. And I think he keeps getting better, too. You know what I mean?

I think he's better than he was before. He looked fantastic in that fight. Good for him. Good for him. And Hamzat's the truth, though. That guy's the truth. That's an amazing division right now. You got Hamzat.

You got Gilbert. You got Kobe. Yeah. You got Masvidal. You got Usman. You got all these guys. Yeah. And, damn, there's this other Russian gentleman who's undefeated who's fighting soon.

He's fighting Neil Magny. God, I cannot pronounce his name. Magny's a tough guy, too. Magny's a very tough guy. And you got Leon Edwards, right? All right. I always fuck this guy's name up because I've never called his fight. Or maybe I did call one of his fights.

Shavkat Rachmanov. Okay. I've been paying a lot of attention to his fights lately. Google some of his, if you can see some of his uh highlights he's got like a karate style okay i i remember seeing this um beautiful Mongolian with the with the the hat the khabib hat you know you you think you think of a guy like that you think of a wrestler but this guy although he is absolutely a good grappler his kicks are fucking insane and he can wrestle too huh he can wrestle too, huh?

He can wrestle too. But as a striker is where he really shines. He throws nasty kicks. Kicks to the body. Just a really good striker. Tough as fuck. And undefeated. But he's a guy that's not getting a lot of hype for whatever reason.

But I think he's someone to keep an eye on. It's the first time I've ever saw him. Yeah. He's good. See, he's got submissions. No doubt. I mean, he's someone to keep an eye on. It's the first time I've ever saw him, yeah. He's good. See, he's got submissions, no doubt. I mean, he's good at everything. I wish I had a better guillotine. How's your guillotine?

You got a good guillotine? It's okay. Yeah, but this guy's very talented. Very talented. And undefeated. And again, I think he said on his Instagram that he's fighting Neil Magny. Okay. Is that what it says?

June 25th. So that's a big fight. That's a big fight for me because I want to see. The same thing with Gilbert and Hamzat. I wanted to see that fight. I was like, okay, let's see what happens now. And this is one of those let's see what happens now because Neil Magny is the real fucking deal. That's a great fight.

Neil Magny will test you. He'll test hell yes that guy's got cardio for days right like who puts up a better pace than neil magny there's no breaks in a neil magny fight right that's true that dude has gas that dude has and he'll fight anyone he ain't afraid of nobody. Fight anyone. And he rarely gets hurt. He's so talented and long. He's so good at using that distance and that pace that he puts on people. He just stays on you. Stays on you. Yep. He's nasty.

So that's going to be a real good fight. Hey, we've been around some of the greatest athletes ever. For sure. Right? And tough guys, too. And just egos, attitudes, humbleness, humility. We've seen a lot. We've seen the rise and fall of people too.

That's the thing. We've seen the hunger and when you get full, you just wait. Yeah. And then there's some guys who just like for whatever reason can sustain for a long time. Like Jim Miller. Right? Jim Miller going strong. Even Clay Guida.

Even Clay. Going strong. Right? Going strong. How is that possible? I mean, he got caught. But, I mean, so what? That dude's nasty.

Yeah. That dude he fought is nasty. Yeah. He just got caught in a submission. But, yeah, how does he keep that hunger? Because he just won his last fight by submission. Choked out a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt. One of my best buddies, Leo Santos.

Dude, he's been doing it forever. Clay Guida has been doing it forever, but he still loves it. Yep. What keeps those guys going? Some guys, like Randy. Like Randy was going deep into his 40s. What is the hunger for Clay, you ask he just loves it but you gotta be some guys just love it he's just an animal you don't need hunger some guys don't need

hunger to go to the buffet they just walk right in they just want to eat all the time yeah i don't know some guys just love it and they can endure it's very interesting it Very. And for a fighter, one of the most difficult decisions, I would imagine, is knowing when to get out. I had the hardest time, you know? I had the hardest time. You know, I had... I saved my money. You know, I did businesses. And I just had the hardest time walking away from that attention, you know, from the attention of the toughest man in the world attention.

Right. You know, it's not from the TV. It's, hey, I want to be the toughest. And when you are champion, and Matt Hughes told me about this, he said, you can't wait to get rid of that belt because you can't wait. But as soon as it's gone, you're like, where is it? Wait, wait, I'm the toughest guy in the world. Where is it? And you're looking, you know.

And everybody's had to deal with it. Anderson, me, you know. Matt. Anderson is another guy that I say, you got to judge him by his prime. You got to judge him by those few years when he was a wizard. How many defenses was it?

He was a magician. Right? How many defenses? And it was the way he was doing it. Like the Vitor one with the front kick to the face. Right? And the Forrest one. I'm in the back. Oh, my God. With all my adrenaline going, trying to get ready to go fight Florian.

And here comes, he walks out, and in one minute he starts, I felt like a minute, Anderson starts walking back. He just knocked out Forrest Griffin, and he goes, BJ, it's your turn. Let's go. Just shaking my head. This guy's crazy. You remember when he knocked out James Irvin?

He stepped up in weight. Yep. What was it? Off the kick or something? Oh, my God. Dude, he was smashing people. And Irvin was a beast. He was a beast.

Yeah. And that guy looked like a superhero. Yeah. Remember how jacked that guy was? Yeah. Anderson in that era would not be denied. The Anderson that fought Chris Lieben, that was a... Yeah.

For those years, Anderson was scary. The Rich Franklin fights. Who's going to be able to compete with... I mean, put it all together and stay... Right? And he was just so clever on the feet. He set guys up. Yeah.

He lead you into kicks. He would set guys up. Yeah. But it's like there was a period of... I don't know how many years it was and how many defenses. You'd have to go over it with a fine-tooth comb. But there was a period where you would look at his career and go, I don't know who's better than that. Right? Right?

I don't know who's better than that. And the timing that he had. I remember when he. This fight right here is a perfect example. And Chris Lieben was just a fucking savage. He's a beast, Chris Lieben. I mean, he. This fight right here is a perfect example. And Chris Lieben was just a fucking savage. He's a beast, Chris Lieben. I mean, he's just trying. He's trying to just.

But he's just totally out of his league in this fight. Yeah. And we had seen Anderson fight over in Pride. And then really came into his own when he was fighting in England. Remember those, what is it, Cage Rage? Yes. Wasn't that Anderson's first fight? In the UFC.

Yeah. But this was after he'd fought Lee Murray. This was after he'd fought a lot of guys over in England. He had some crazy good fights over in England. Oh, that's right. He fought Lee Murray. Yeah. I forget.

That's where he really came into his own. What was his, Georgie, the one he, I think he fought Bisping. I remember one of his friends toldie, the one he, I think he fought Bisping. He, I remember one of his friends told me, what was the guy, he was in the UFC, the Puerto Rican one.

George, which, he fought Michael Bisping. Rivera? Yeah, yeah, Rivera. It was one of his guys

was telling us that he fought Anderson in cage rage and he said he hit Anderson all his might in his face and it did nothing

and that's when he knew it was done. It's a video of that. It's a crazy video. Anderson lets him punch him in the face. This is it right here. And then there was also like, remember that Tony Fricklin fight where he practiced this crazy upward elbow?

And his trainer's like, stop doing that. Like, why are you practicing that? You're not going to do that and so he made his wife hold pillows and he practiced it at home because he couldn't do it in the gym so he starts practicing and he's like I'm going to knock him out with that

and then he went and just purposely set up that one technique and Fricklin he's the kind of guy that could kill somebody I mean these guys are animals and he like practiced a technique on it and this is it right here this is where the rivera fight and rivera was a powerful striker oh yeah that's why that was crazy that that did nothing to him because what rivera hit top 10 top five right he was there for a little bit yeah he was for a little bit yeah he was definitely top 10 i love seeing the old UFC guys around. Yeah. I love seeing them.

Anderson was something special back then. Remember when he would grab the neck? Nobody could do it like him. Oh, my God. And I think Anderson showed me this one where he kind of grabs around like this. So even if the guy's arm is in, if you grab like this, you'll just crush their arm. So he's not doing traditional like this with one hand on top of this? He probably knows them all just like us in jiu-itsu you know but he did he was showing me this he said look this

and even with my arm and he'll just he'll just pull you right in well whatever he was doing he was doing it because like when he got a hold of rich rich franklin was trapped like that that clinch his his plum was better than right buddies. Right? Rich could, twice he beat him with the plum. And Rich was the best in the world. Yeah. And again, Rich was saying he was one of the first guys to ever be like in super good shape. Like he had a whole circuit that he would do too. I forget who his coach was, but he was one of the first guys when the UFC videotaped his workout session,

people were like, what the fuck is Rich doing? Rich told me, he said, Tim Sylvia doing this to him is nothing compared to Anderson doing it. That's what Rich was saying. Wow. That's incredible. Right? Yeah, you got to remember. People have to remember Anderson from those days.

When you're looking at who's the GOAT, I don't think you really can say who's the greatest in the world. There's no such thing. There's no such thing. Right. But when you look at the GOATs, you got to factor in Anderson when he was in his prime. Because Anderson, when he was in his prime, was just destroying people. Look, he wanted to walk away. You saw it.

Yeah. Well, that's what, you see how he lives? That's what I was noticing too. When Anderson grabs your neck, when you go to grab him around like this, then he'll just knee you in your rib and break your rib. Look at that. You're talking about one of the toughest guys ever lying on his back in pain right there. And the way he did it was just precision.

I mean, it was every step of the way, he was one step ahead. He just was striking him at will towards the end. Yep. I mean, it was every step of the way, he was one step ahead. He just was striking them at will towards the end. Yep. He was a fantastic fighter in his prime. Even when he was so good that even when he did get hit that one time from why I went out, I thought he was faking. That's great. I thought he was faking. That's how good Anderson was.

I thought he was faking. I think it's that thing BJ that you were talking about that Matt you said cuz Matt he said it when I was interviewing him after he lost the belt he said to be honest it's a relief mm-hmm he was really very brave of him to say that right as a guy who just lost the title so but to be honest it feels like a relief like there's a lot of pressure I can he was just being himself. He's saying, I'm just telling you the truth.

This is hard to carry this crown. Get this away from me. And then it's like that ring on the Lord of the Rings. Where is my precious? And then we come back for it, right? That's exactly what the UFC belt is. It's that Lord of the Rings. It's the ring.

I think that's what the casual fans don't understand. It's that Lord of the Ring. It's the ring. I think that's what the casual fans don't understand. That's one aspect of it that they probably don't factor in is the extreme amount of pressure it is to be a guy that everyone's gunning for. It's not the same as any other athletic pursuit because the guy's trying to hurt you. Yes. You're trying to hurt each other. suit because the guy's trying to hurt you yes you're trying to hurt each other it's not just i want to be a better baseball player than you it's i want to be a better baseball player than you and i want to beat the fuck out of you yeah and so there's like a hundred guys like that who want to beat the fuck out of you because you're the guy in in in tennis when you mess up it's 50 love when you mess up here it's's your ass. It's the most consequences

which is why it's the most exciting for people to watch because everybody knows. You know, going around now doing this new governor thing, I talk to people and I ask every question and they go, it's great for you to show your humility and asking these questions and letting

us know that you need our help. And I always tell them the same. I say, hey, in the business I did the last 20 years, I can't fake anything. It'll cost me my health. Yes. If I go out there and fake like I know how to defend myself, I'm dead. I'm going to seriously get hurt. And I think that's just ingrained in us at this point.

You know, if I don't know something, if you don't know something before you get in that ring, you better ask. Yeah, that's a really great aspect of martial arts. Like, if you don't know what you're doing

and you pretend you know what you're doing, you get fucked up. Yup. Period. Yup. 100%. And I feel that

when coming into this. I'll ask every question. I tell people, my ears look like this from listening. That's why my ears look like this. Listening to all this shit. Yeah, if you don't pay attention and you don't really look at what's real and what's not real in martial arts. You can't you can't do it. It's not possible No, you will never be able to figure out how to put a submission together. You're not gonna do it Let me act like I know how to defend kicks

Imagine if you didn't want to listen to a Thai coach, of course you'd want to listen But we all we are all like a product of all the people who have ever trained with us, who have ever trained us, who have ever worked out with. We're all the product of each other. That's why great gyms produce great fighters too. It's one of the, you know, iron sharpens iron. That's the fact. You know, you don't get that.

It's always we, right? Yep. But it's you. Yes. But when that fucking door closes, it's you. And that's where it get that. It's always we, right? Yep. But it's you. Yes. But when that fucking door closes, it's you. And that's where it gets crazy, BJ. Right? You know?

That's where it gets crazy. Like in some of your bigger fights, I remember being there going, God damn, like just goosebumps and crackling, and I'm ready for it to go down. Holy shit. You had some exciting ones, man. And me, when you're in that moment, you don't even realize because you're just there for that.

Right. Right? And then now if you look at martial arts history, like if I was going to teach a course, like a college course in the evolution of martial arts, you're a chapter in that book, 100%. Because you were a guy that got really dangerous on the feet but lethal on the feet,

but lethal on the ground too. So you were a great combination because you were strangling people, you were fucking people up at submissions, but you were also super dangerous on your feet. I remember I was a jujitsu, was I a jujitsu world champion already? I might have been a brown belt maybe, and Javier Mendez was in San Jose. So I remember going there one day, and me and him just clicked right away clicked right away but he was like hey you want me to punch the mitts i'm like okay and i punched the mitch it's mitts a lot as a kid i got into a lot of fights as a kid and i i started

hitting the mitts and he goes you can hit hard you can you could knock somebody out bj you you could be you could be a champion and i thought be a champion. And I thought he was just joking. I just thought he was just being nice. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, thanks, Hav. And they were with me my first four or five fights, but that's kind of what got me in. Isn't it funny that sometimes someone has to tell you?

Someone has to tell you, like, hey, man, you got some wild shit. You could do some things right and yeah and that makes them take the journey and even brian johnston he used to be with brian frank shamrock all of those guys bobby southworth they're all with javier mendez at the time and i remember brian johnston telling me bj you can be a ufc champion and that's that's when i really believed in that's when i really believed in, that's when I really believed it. I was like, this guy was in the UFC.

He knows, you know? Right. And that's when I kind of, you know, Brian, he's had a hard life since. I think you know what's happened in Brian Johnston's life. Yeah, he got, did he get injured? Yeah, he got injured and it kind of left him with handicapped kind of a stroke or something,

just a random something terrible happened. Oh, this was quite a few years back. Yeah. Is he, can he walk around? I don't know what he can do. I haven't seen him. But I love him and he's one of the guys who made me believe in myself. That's amazing.

You know? It's sorry to hear about him. That's amazing. It's sorry to hear about him. When people were just starting to tell you that you could fight in the UFC, what did you plan to do if you didn't do that? I wanted to just be a jiu-jitsu guy, just have a jiu-jitsu school, and just teach seminars and say that I won the jiu-jitsu championships years back.

Well, now 20 years ago, or 50 years ago, I was the Jiu-Jitsu championships years back. Well, now 20 years ago, I was, or 50 years ago, I was the Jiu-Jitsu world champion. That's kind of, I didn't know what I was going to do in my life, you know. I would see one of my older brothers, he would just drink beer at the beach every day. And I really didn't know what I was going to do. I'm so thankful and happy that my father ended up. Keenan Cornelius, his father, moved right across the road from me. He did a couple of jiu-jitsu lessons from Half Gracie.

And we got, his name is Tom Callis. I really shouldn't say Keenan Cornelius, his father, because Keenan came up way later, you know. But he introduced me to jiu-jitsu. He kept asking my father, hey, could you tell your boy come down and come to the rec center and roll around? And I was like, no, I'm already the toughest fighter in the world. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry about that.

And then my dad's like, BJ, just go once. He keeps asking me. And if you go, I'll tell him you don't like it. So I went down. I got choked out. And I got arm locked in. And I said, with this, I could be the man in Hilo. I could learn, you know. That's what I thought, you know.

But it was the coolest thing. It's just a never ending thing. I don't train as much as I should now, to tell you the truth. Now that I've been doing this journey, going around the state. Maybe it would help you if you did. I believe 100 percent. If you just take the time time the extra time to train yeah you know you know what i i realized this this woman came up to me and she said bj thank you so

much for this gym because we have the ufc gyms in honolulu bj penn ufc gyms and she and i go no thank you for being here and she says no you don't understand i'm 60 years old and for the first time in my life i gave away my antidepressant medicine. And that's when it hit me. I said, that's, that's what this is. So I always say working the body heals the mind. And even before my father passed away, he'd get parking, he'd had Parkinson's and he'd get, uh, he'd get depressed and stuff and start arguing with my mom. I take him for a walk, two blocks around, around, around the neighborhood. We'd come back and he'd be right back in his routine. Endorphins is God's antidepressant medicine. It heals you. Working the body heals the mind.

I'll always believe that. I am firmly with you. I think it can't be emphasized enough how valuable it is. When I take just a few days off, like if I hurt something, and I say, well, I'll just take a couple days off, let everything recover, I always start getting sketchy. Like I don't feel as good. And then I'll have one hard workout day, and then I'm like, oh, I'm back. Yes. I can be normal again. Yes.

I think a lot of people never know what normal feels like. They never feel that. They never get to that point where their body is in shape and relaxed and healthy and you just had a good workout that feeling is nice it's just a nice feeling you're your face is like that and you're in the fun thing about training is you're getting happy doing something that is a fun thing to do so you try you you get really good at it you work hard at it because it's also fun it's not just hard work like jiu-jitsu is fun and you get really good at it you work hard at it because it's also fun it's not just hard work like Jiu Jitsu is fun

and you get to think and have fun and outsmart the other guys the best video game ever yeah Eddie talks about it that way too he said it's like a human video game it's funny like you're a guy who came up like when I was trying to explain to Eddie Eddie knew he was good

but I don't think he totally knew how good he was. And we always were giant fans of you. And he was like, man, he was always like, God, BJ's a fucking prodigy. BJ's a prodigy. I go, dude, you're pretty fucking good, too. He is good. I want you to understand, like, you do something special. Like, your jiu-jitsu is wild.

Like, you got to understand, to understand man like there's a lot of people that don't like the fact you connect it all to weed but that's on them yeah just look at your jujitsu itself it's something fucking special it is and then you know he kind of realized it eventually he's definitely realized it after he tapped hoyler right well it's just those little talks and those it's it's amazing the stuff that sticks with people Yeah, well Eddie's just always been super creative like he finds new like if you tell him you can't go that way He's like why not? Why can't I go that way?

Maybe I can figure out a way to go that way that you never figured out and then he'll he'll figure out a way that might Actually be better than the way we were all doing it before I like, there's certain things that as jiu-jitsu develops new counterattacks and new defense, you've got to let them go with higher level guys now. Well, he invents these new paths and people are like, where the fuck is he going with this? And then all of a sudden you're in a twister. I remember watching this interview and this lady said, that's the problem with school.

They tell you that there's only one right answer. There's thousands of right answers. You can solve it a thousand different ways. Yeah. There's a lot of different answers. And I believe that. There definitely is. There's all these different styles.

Some guys top heavy style. Some guys bottom style. You know, a lot of guard work. You can do it any way you want. Just try to do it. And it's amazing because now MMA is its own style you know and like you said when when I started like I I got stand up and I and I had jiu-jitsu and then I tried to learn wrestling so you can call that a mixed martial artist

but now today the guys are like they'll go for your leg they miss they come with the elbow I started noticing that when I started ended up in the ring with the newer guys and i was like and these guys these guys are trying real hard there's a lot of spinning elbows now right you know i've seen a lot of spinning elbows these days yeah who would have ever thought we would have just wrote that off as a disneyland technique you ever see uh gaston bolanos spinning elbow in Bellator? No. Oh, BJ. It might be the greatest spinning elbow of all time.

Really? Yeah, because Gaston is a badass Muay Thai fighter. Oh, wow. Okay. And he's now been fighting MMA for a few years, but he's known for his elbows. He's known for his spinning elbow. I saw that Prochaka one where he did it to Reyes. And Reyes being as high level

as he was, I saw the gif on the internet a little while ago and I was like, that's pretty good. That might be right up there with it. Just because of the level of who Dominic Reyes is, right? So what's going on with John?

He's coming back soon. I want to see back soon i want to see him i want to see him in there see if you can find that i think you got to think of the europe proska fight yeah he's fighting dominic reyes who who just had a great fight yeah here we go oh that's one see he's known for these spinning elbows so this is him doing it in um this was in a kickboxing fight he did it in bellator sorry it's all right so so this is but you get to see the like he's known for it in muay thai and then he carries watch this boom i mean for real one of the best spinning elbows of all time watch this again i mean that is filthy he did like a roll he did like a doodle roll yeah just he was just out unconscious the moment it hit.

Look at that. I mean, that is phenomenal. Remember when we used to fight back in the day and we'd be like, you got to get this guy to the ground as quick as possible. Remember? Yeah. But there's no saying that anymore. Yeah. The fights just keep going up and down.

And you take guys down and they triangle you. Yeah. And you're like, this is incredible. You know? there's so many different guys are so talented now it's like the talent pool has never been greater there's so many 100 percent don't you think we need more weight classes i could well i try to talk you into it i like how to phrase that question okay if you're gonna be governor you can't let people be this sneaky. But they tell me, they tell me, why aren't you running for mayor? Why aren't you running for governor? I said, the same reason that a lightweight fought heavyweight.

That's the same reason. Jump right to the top. Yeah. No, but just to do something. But as far as weight classes go, yeah, I mean, it'll be a change because like we say, we love the past. We love our golden era. But if you're sitting here saying we need more weight classes and you're there every show and every day. I think it'd be a pain in the ass for the UFC, but I think it'd be really good for the fighters.

I think they need more options. I think every 10 pounds. 10 pounds is a lot. 10 pounds is a lot. It's a lot. Still to today, I'm the only guy 55 and 70 yeah because that weight difference is so big it's a crazy gap yeah that's a crazy one 85 and 205 is another crazy gap it would be weird i mean will the you think because the champions get lost in in everything going on

anyway would there be more would it be like boxing where there's so many champions you don't know no because there's boxing has too many But I think there's a comfortable medium. Because they're every three pound boxing. I think it's 10 pounds. That's what I'm thinking. Every 10 pounds for MMA. And just go 60, 70. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

50, 60, 70. Yeah, something like that. Or 55, 65, 75. That might be easier to do since we already have 85 and 205. So then we just put in a 195. 65, 75. And then you have more champs. There's a lot of talented people.

A lot of talented people out there. Maybe there's a lot of guys that if they didn't have to cut that extra five pounds, they would be way better because they wouldn't be depleted. That's the worst thing you could possibly do to your body before you're going to fight the toughest person you've ever fought in your whole life. It's so crazy. Then starve ourselves to death and then let's go fight the guy. BJ, it's so illogical and it drives me crazy.

And it's one of those things that I think we're stuck with for no good reason. It's a bad tradition. How did it start? How did the weigh-in tradition start from boxing? Well, they did it in boxing for sure. Guys cut weight in boxing. And unfortunately in boxing, they would cut weight and fight the day they weighed in which is even worse

but they don't do it like us right because remember when Mayweather fought McGregor Mayweather was like on weight that day and that was like

his real weight and McGregor was trying to cut 20 and put 20 back on that's just because Mayweather didn't give a fuck no Mayweather just didn't

give a fuck and the wrestler mentality that we have in MMA a lot of mentalities came from a lot of different sports. We have certain part has a boxing mentality. Right. Certain has a wrestling mentality with a cut weight type of thing. Then you've got that jujitsu mentality mixed in there.

But was that a wrestling thing for us that's ingrained in us? Like, hey, if you're going to cut weight, make sure you weigh 20 pounds over the next day. Don't make that your real weight. I think that definitely was prominent in wrestling, but it was prominent in boxing too. Okay. Remember when, wasn't that a part of,

they thought, Ducku Kim, when Boom Boom Mancini killed him in that fight? Oh, yeah. They think part of that might have had to do with cutting weight for the day of the fight because they would weigh in that day. And then walk in the ring with no water in their brains. and who knows what they knew about electrolytes and shit back then imagine how thick the blood was i mean you take out the water you know how thick that blood is just like pudding

running through your heart well also they think that people who are dehydrated there's like reason to believe they would be easier to knock out. They would be more susceptible to concussions. They would have less fluid in their head. Right. And if that's true, that's crazy that you're allowing people to do that 24 hours before a cage fight. That's crazy.

That is crazy. Do you know how 1FC does it? They supposedly have some sort of hydration test. They've supposedly made people move really supposedly you can't cut low you can't cut lower yeah okay they've they supposedly weigh your body and determine how much water you have and then always make you stay within that like water range of like what a healthy weight is i think i might be getting this wrong yeah but i think the point is they do hydration tests and you're not allowed to dehydrate yourself 24 hours.

You can't like some of these guys are cutting crazy weight. There's always going to be somebody that thinks like that. Like if I cut weight, you know, and as you get older, I know for me personally, I wish I went up. I wish I didn't go do that whole 145 thing. It just emaciated me. I went up. I wish I didn't go do that whole 145 thing. It just emaciated me. I had nothing. Not only was I didn't have the hunger I had when I was a kid, but I didn't.

You just emaciate yourself down to nothing. And you see fighters like James Toney. He goes the heavyweight, and he wins a belt. I think it is. As you get older, I think maybe it's a smarter thing to go up instead of down. That's interesting. Well, I think the problem really is just the weight cutting itself. I think if we could eliminate that from the sport and make people fight at their natural weight.

As soon as you sign your contract, your weight right there that day, that's okay. This is where you fight. It's a bad culture because it doesn't make any sense. If there's really this many fighters, because there's a lot now. There's so many fighters, so many talented fighters. There's talented fighters that are introduced into the UFC all the time that I don't even know of. Then all of a sudden I see them, I'm like,

God damn, this guy's good. How long has he been fighting? There's so many of those guys now. Right. I think there's plenty of room for other weight classes. I think there's plenty of room for other weight classes i think there's plenty of room and you know what if you you're more experienced in this sport than me at this point because you sit there and watch it all and you've got to look at thousands of fighters in doing this and i'm with you i'm with you then yeah 100 it just seems like uh it would be more opportunity for champions more opportunity for

guys to fight healthy and if we could get everybody to fight at a natural weight and eliminate weight cutting and have all these different weight classes so they have options to choose from and then get yourself into a healthy weight that you're really sustainable at and that's the weight you fight at fuck all this yeah get down lose 15 pounds in 10 hours and then put it back in with an iv get the fuck out of here what are you doing and the ivs are actually banned which makes well they said that the reason why you have to ban ivs i guess is because uh iv they can hide drugs or something yeah right you can flush it out of your system yeah if you can you could dilute your urine to the point where it's not detected because you're just getting the IV back.

That's what the bikers or whatever were doing, right? They're so dirty, those bikers. Bikers are the dirtiest. The bikers. Watch the bikers. Isn't it crazy? That is the dirtiest sport. Right?

It's something like they have little motors in their thing without you knowing. Isn't that crazy? They're amazing. Sne have little motors in their thing without you knowing. Isn't that crazy? They're amazing. Sneaky little motors in their bikes. What's in humans to make us do that? We just want to win? Or do we like being tricky and not letting people know? Which one? What is it?

I think we're lucky that we're not bikers. That's what I think. I think that pursuit of just being the guy who pedals the hardest for the longest. Because that's what it is. Right. Right. It's like everybody can ride a bike. Everybody can steer a bike.

It's not about like precision steering. It's about who can fucking go harder for longer. Yeah. So it's all just mind demons just pushing these guys. Right. Mind demons. You're right. And this guy's pumping

and you're trying to fucking go and you're getting blood transfusion and they're shooting you up with tests and you're fucking... And you're doing it for days, BJ. It's true. Days. Mind demons.

That's all in their mind. Right? The game's all in the mind. The whole thing. It's all how hard you pedal. You back off if you want. If you don't want't want that jacket you don't want to be a champion let's take a break right let's relax imagine how much times they mess with them and do all that stuff yeah that's how you get a guy like lance armstrong that's how you get a guy like that that guy's the champion

of the mind demons he knows how to fucking ride it out and go harder and faster and longer. Harder. And just imagine that lactic acid in the legs and you're just going. It's such a dishonest conversation when that guy gets in trouble for it. Because like, yes, he definitely, at least according to him, took some stuff.

Still, everybody was taking some stuff. And he beat them all. He beat them all. And he beat them all for years. They were all doing crazy shit. Yeah. Did he come on and say that they were all doing, everybody was on it? BJ, they found that when they went back to try to find people with Lance that competed with him that never tested positive.

It's impossible they had to go back to 18th place well that's and that guy's probably just got that urine he probably has that fucking bag of urine and you know and yeah you know took a giant IV and flushed it out of his system that is funny I think there's just there's a lot of money in winning the Tour de France yeah and when there's a lot of money and you're dealing with some shady characters they're going listen i got a i got a guy and in mma what i noticed because you know i i realized that people will admit that they cheated on their wife before they say that they that they didn't compete fair yeah i know you know it's just it is what it is well in your in your era, to be fair,

you were one of the only guys that was adamant about that. A lot of people just shut the fuck up. And still till today, I say, hey, wherever you want to, I'm the only guy 155 and 170 that got both belts. But if you want to add this into the rankings, I really didn't do that stuff. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So I always say that till today. No, you really didn't i really didn't do that stuff you know what i mean yeah so i always say that yeah no you really know and then and then um i remember because i didn't even uh usada just came and and i then we were going to take in a glutathione iv we i never take ivs anyway you know but i just i was like okay okay i'll take it and then i told usado yeah i took an iv and then they busted me for it because i think they just wanted to show that they had teeth or whatever. But I'm really one of the only guys who didn't. You know what I mean?

So just using any kind of an IV. Yeah. Why did you want glutathione? Yeah, no, we were just at a place. Were you partying? No, no, we were at a, they were doing, what's that, where they take all your blood and they see what you're allergic to for the food.

That's why we were there. And the guys just kept talking to me to it. I'm just like, okay, whatever. Go ahead. They kept talking to me to it. Shouldn't even have, of course you're not going to feel. So he just talks you into a glutathione drip? Yeah.

You know how when you're in some place, right? And they just. Glutathione, I think it's an antioxidant. But one of the things that I know it for is alcohol. It helps your body process alcohol better. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah. There's a type of it that a lot of people take that are into this stuff, like doctors that know a lot about how to mitigate hangovers and shit. It's liposomal glutathione, I think is what it's called. Okay. Apparently glutathione in the IV form, the way you took it, though, is the best way. That's the best way to get it. Most people that do that

on a regular basis say it helps them, like people who party. Okay. Helps your body process. But I was just surprised. I'm like, what? I'm the guy that was out of his tagging. I really didn't even mess around ever. They were very strict, but I guess it changed a lot of

things now you don't even know who got busted right don't they have to change so they don't crash the pay-per-views or whatever now they just oh is that true oh i don't know i don't i don't know because i haven't really heard any well this guy got canceled because someone tested positive that's a good question that's a good question like when was the last time like a big fight got canceled because someone tested positive right it's interesting because whatever i mean the thing is like will we find out in five years that they were doing some shit and nobody knew about it you know yeah yeah because in the in your day in your era how many guys were doing steroids it was rampant. Yeah. Like everybody knew it.

Yeah. And I think about that. I wonder, like, should I have done something to keep my career going? But it's just more of everything. You would have been more training, more getting beat up in the ring, more. Yeah. I'm just glad. I'm at peace with everything.

It's hard to walk away from a career, but I really am at peace. That's good, man. That's good because there's going to be other chapters in your life. If you don't let it go now, you let it go when you're 60, let it go when you're 70.

Right? Like Evander Holyfield just had a fight, man. That's what... He fought Vitor. Oh, yeah, he fought Vitor. I mean, Evander Holyfield's almost 60 years old. That's crazy. Yeah.

And Mike Tyson just... Yeah. The Mike Tyson-Roy Jones Jr. fight, though, at least, you know, nobody got hurt. Yeah. That was a good thing. That was the key. That was a good thing.

For Thriller and for them to make more shows after. I was thinking if they said that, hey, let's make sure not to crash this whole promotion in one. We can't have a 60-year-old guy being carried out of here. Yeah. Jesus Christ. But Mike looks, but he looked good, though. Mike looked real good.

Mike looked good. I think they were moving towards one day, there was talk at least of a Mike versus Evander rematch. Yeah, but then the Belfort thing slowed that down. But Belfort, Slowed that down But the Belfort How old is Vitor He's my age at least

Right he's 43 Is he Yeah That seems old When you compare him To a young young guy But when you compare him To a dude who's almost 60

Yeah And Vitor is still Very fucking dangerous Yeah And Very fast And that's what's amazing About Randy Couture you know

yeah you know they're right that's what's amazing about him how about when randy dropped him sylvia that inside right oh that was the greatest fight i've ever saw like what that was like the greatest fight i've ever saw for a guy to come back and get that belt. And Tim was so big. Right? Tim was a giant. He was a huge guy. Tim was a giant. Remember when he knocked out Rico? With his belt everywhere? Yeah.

And he hit Rico good. Oh, my God. Yeah. That Tim Sylvia. See, again, you talk about a guy when he's at his prime. Yep. At his prime. You got to remember him at a... Go Tim Sylvia versus Rico Rodriguez.

Or Gamma G even. Yeah. Gamma G's a good one, too. He's tough. He was huge. But, Gamma G's a good one too. He's tough. He was so jacked back then too. Like people thought of Tim Sylvia, they always gave him a hard time for being flabby.

Yeah. But, you know, there was times where whatever commissions you were at. Would catch him. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you ever get busted for anything, but there was a lot of people taking some stuff. Let's just say they looked a lot different back then. But the thing is like the whole environment was that everybody was doing that.

So I'm not saying that he did it, but I'm saying he looked like he did it. I think he got busted a couple of times, but. I think he might've. But my point is, it's like, you got to remember him from this fight. Because from this fight, he was a pretty good fucker against Rico. And he pulls right out of it. You've got to remember this Tim Sylvia. This Tim Sylvia was fucking dangerous.

He was a big boy with big power. Look at that. One punch. Dude. Look at that. He fucked Rico up in this fight. Look at him. That was a crazy knockout.

And Rico was a dangerous man too. Rico was good. Rico called me the other day. Oh shit. I mean look at that right hand. We talked about too long ago. Rico was fantastic. He was Machado.

Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Yeah Rico was a bad motherfucker dude. Telegman I remember Telegman. Didn't Rico beat Randy? Rico that's-Jitsu black belt. Yeah, Rico was a bad motherfucker, dude. Teligman, I remember Teligman. Didn't Rico beat Randy? Rico, that's how he got his belt. Exactly. Might have even took him down towards the end, got on top of him.

How did that fight go down? Randy. I'm trying to remember how that fight, how did I not remember that fight? It was back and forth, and I think Rico finally took Randy down, got his legs. And I remember Randy and Tito. That was a great. Tito's coming down. He's going to help me with one of my fundraisers.

He's going to be one of the featured speakers. All right. Because he ran. Make sure you put that online. Yeah, yeah. That's going to be fun. Yeah, for sure. That's beautiful.

Yeah, so he's all for it. So how are you doing this? Do you have to raise money for your campaign? Do you? a big part so just getting into it you know i i uh i knew i knew like i wanted to help i want to come wanted to come out and help and i knew they went too far they tried to lock everybody down on their island. Like you couldn't leave certain islands. They were trying to do that on the airplanes. And, and I knew I'm not the, I knew my record's not perfect and clean. You know what I mean? And I'm like, Oh, do I really want to get into all this stuff? And I'm, I'm just like, ah, I gotta do it. I gotta

do it for my kids. And I always say, I don't want my kids to, to be older and say, dad, you fought in the octagon for 20 years, but you didn't do nothing about this. You didn't do nothing when they were closing our businesses, when they're doing all this stuff. And that's kind of what pushed me out. And I'm just like, I know they're going to, I like to say my strength is my strength. They're going to come and they're going to keep mudslinging and just keep throwing stuff at me. You know, I hear they're doing it. They've already tried a bunch of things. I hear they're going to, you know, old girlfriends now and trying to get pictures or do whatever they can.

But, you know, that's not going to deter me from wanting to fight for the people. It's not going to deter me from wanting to fight for my children and and all of these things and that's that's how i got into this i i know i know it'd be a lot cheaper and a lot less painful to just go do it do it some other way you know what i mean but that here we are and and and i'm in it and it is it is nerve-wracking sometimes because this isn't my game. Right. I'm a fighter, you know, but one thing I know is I know Hawaii.

Born and raised there, been there this whole time. I saw my friends, my cousins, my best friends move away because their parents just can't cut it on the islands. You know, it's just too expensive and and i see the different problems and i you know i want our people to stay in hawaii and and i want us to have jobs hey look we're all in the center we're let's just tell the truth we're all in the center you know there's some crazy people on both sides you know we're all in the center we just want we want good jobs businesses, and we want our kids taken care of. We want our kids to get a good education.

That's all we want. Everything else is bullshit. Everything else is bullshit. We're all right here. Most people. The vast majority of people are good people that just want to be left alone, want to be able to prosper, want good health care available, good education available, want their children to have a potential for a good future. That's what everybody wants. Yeah.

I'm not here to cut everybody's programs. I'm not here to do anything psycho on any side. We just want to keep living our lives. We want to keep our people here. Let me ask you this, PJ. If this magically happened, how much time have you thought about the actual job itself and what you would do if you got into office? What would be a thing that you would want to really establish very quickly?

Well, the first thing they say, the Republicans and the Democrats, I'm an outsider. I'm not part of either establishment. They'll come up and they'll give me problems. Are you running as an independent? They don't have an independent party in Hawaii because no one's made one. There's Libertarian, there's Aloha Aina, there's these different parties. And it was a tough decision to what I was going to run because the Democrat is just so strong. 47 of the 51 House representatives are Democrat. 24 of the 25 state Senate members are Democrat.

Our two state senators, our two congressmen, our lieutenant governor and our governor, you know, it's a one-party establishment right now. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. And I was thinking about running as a Democrat just with my same values of freedom, economy, and education. But here I am. Here I am. I'm running for the Republican Party. And it's going to be a wild ride, Joe.

This is fun. This is fun. They're coming after me. So how did you decide to become a Republican rather than an independent or rather than one of those other? Yeah. Well,

I libertarian and all that, that was too much. I mean, my mom, my mother was in the Republican party and always helped out with them and did different things. And, and I mean,

right now, as far as, you know, just everything going on, I mean, you know, it, it seems like the Republicans are trying to keep things to. I know I think a lot of I think was the 80s the height of civilization. Everything seems so normal. I really, genuinely, genuinely wonder what it would be like if how much different, if at at all it would be like if a Republican

was president or if a Democrat was president I really wonder like what what causes things to go so sideways like what influences are making government go one way or another like to put emphasis into one thing or another thing and to not recognize the complaint to the people, to not recognize when people don't like the direction that things are going. It's like it happens on both sides. It happens, like when George Bush was president, people were mad.

People were always mad. I mean, I got into this because a buddy of mine that was a federal senator from Hawaii, he was pushing for that passport to step on the plane and kind of landlock everybody on their island. And I told him, I said, what's going to happen if you pass this? Why are you supporting this? And he said, he goes, you're just going to have to listen. And then that's when I said, oh, yeah, you're just going to have to listen because these guys forgot that they work for us. You know, that's why they're there. That was his actual answer to you? Yeah, you're just going to have to listen because these guys forgot that they work for us. You know, that's why they're there.

That was his actual answer to you? Yeah, you're just going to have to listen. You're just going to have to listen. And I say this when I go around. So my father's dying on December 30th in the hospital. I'm not vaccinated, so I can't walk in and see him. And I'm just going to have to listen. I'm trying to leave my business open so I can feed my children.

But I got to close my businesses, and I'm just going to have to listen. And that's what finally made me stand up. And I told my brother, I said, act like King Kamehameha, act like George Washington, act like somebody fighting for us. And then my brother whispers in my ear, he's never been in a fight in his life. And I said, well, I'll just do this myself then. That's exactly how it started. And it's true. I don't want my kids seeing. My kids or any other kids, yeah, Uncle BJ, you know, you fought your whole life. Why didn't you go fight these guys?

And so I'm here. I'm here to. Whenever a government grabs additional powers, whenever they start being able to impose additional restrictions on people because of like this health crisis. They don't give those back. They don't want to give those back. No. They don't want to give those back. And, you know, it's easy when fighting for individual rights when it's popular is one thing,

but fighting for them when it's not popular is a total different animal. When your best friend's girlfriend's sticking you the finger over the table and you're like, hey, I don't like what you're saying, but I'll fight for you to have the right to say it. You know, but that's, it's just, how did they start taking things? I don't like smoking. I hate cigarettes. I hate being around them. But they walk in and then they start taking the cigarettes from people and then they look. Nobody said anything because it ain't popular to stand up and say, hey, let them, if a bar wants to put cigarettes in the bar, let them do it or whatever.

And that's how they just start stripping. And even with TSA, God bless them for all the jobs that they create. But that's another thing. That was a George Bush type thing that they put these things, they don't give them back when they start to do stuff for us. No, there used to be a time we could just get on a plane. Yeah, when you could just get, you know, there's a policeman there and you just walk through

that same family x-ray or whatever and you put your bag through, but now you got to take off your shoes. Now they got to pat you down. Now they do all this stuff. You know, there was times when you just, you could walk into a courtroom where all the criminals are much Easier that you could get on Get on the plane Yeah, it's used to be able to get on a plane with other people's tickets

Like you could give me a ticket and I could go on the plane with your ticket. Yeah, exactly Remember those yeah. Oh, yeah, it was it was I mean. Yeah, the ability to keep track of people now. That's what we don't like. Yeah, they can corral people up, and that's where it gets scary. And some people are recognizing that from the pandemic, and some people just get so political they can't see that it's a human behavior pattern. It's a human behavior pattern that folks that are in control of other people exercise. They tell people what to do, and then that's what they like to do. exercise. They tell people what to do,

and then that's what they like to do. They like to tell people what to do. And they might be right about some of it. They might be wrong, but they want you to just listen. You're just going to have to listen. Thank you. That's exactly. You're just going to have to listen to this, PJ.

That's crazy. When he said that to you, that's crazy. That's how a crazy person talks. They listen to us.'s crazy when he said that dude that's crazy that's how a crazy person talks they listen to us they work for us you're just gonna have to listen is like a line in a bad movie right you know the jail guard why am i in here you're just gonna have to listen like what i can't believe that's what it's like that's a stupid thing to say but but it's not uncommon amongst people that achieve a position of power like that. There's a very intoxicating thing about a man in particular, but sometimes a lot of

women, sometimes women, they get into a position of extreme power and they like to exercise it over folks. They enjoy making mandates and placing rules on things. You have to have this far away from that. And you have to they'll decide what time liquor stores are allowed to be open or what time this is about. The bar must close by 2 a.m., even if it's not near anything. And that stuff is contagious. I mean, you could tell your your gym manager and workers, hey, don't police this. This is wrong. You guys, they just made a new definition for fully vaccinated.

Stop policing the passports. Don't police the mask. And then they'll keep saying, hey, they'll keep policing it because that's their political party. And it's just contagious that way all the way around. You know how we know it doesn't work? Vegas. Because in Vegas, you could just drink at 5 in the morning, 3 in the morning, 1 in the morning. It doesn't matter.

You could always do whatever the fuck you want. Yeah, nobody cares nobody cares, but Eventually people settle into a healthy schedule You don't just stay up drinking just because the bars are always open just like you don't go into them in the middle of the Day either exactly it's like you you find like that. He doesn't need a regulation for that the less regulations the better You want to stay open? You want to serve beer at 5 in the morning? Serve beer at 5? Who gives a fuck? What, is there a magic time where you can't serve beer anymore?

What the fuck is that? Don't drive drunk ever and serve beer whenever the fuck you want. This is stupid. What, are we grown adults here? And everybody asks me, so what are you going to do when you get in? Nobody's with you. None of the legislature is with you. I go, I'll tell you exactly what I'm going to do.

I'm going to walk right into the Department of Health. And I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they were confused. Maybe they weren't thinking in their right minds. Maybe they were scared. But we're going to go fix the Department of Health. We're going to put all the right people in. Or maybe they can work with us.

Then we're going to go to the Department of Education. I don't have to go to the legislature to go do these, to these different departments. Because who's the boogeyman when you say, okay, put a big sign on the front of your building that says you're not going to police the passports and the masks? Oh, no, I don't want the Department of Health coming down. Well, I'm going to go take care of the Department of Health. Oh, they're shutting down these hunting lands. I don't want to walk in there.

Well, I'm going to go to the Department of Land and Natural Resources. I'm going to go in all these departments, and we're going to make big changes. We'll give the people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they made a mistake. Maybe they're still masking the children in Hawaii because they made a mistake. So when I get there, I'm going to go in the Department of Education, I'm going to go in the Department of Health, and I'm going to go take care of all of these things.

And I'm not going to talk to the legislature to do it. That's my area. And is this all the way you're allowed to pursue these things? Is there a protocol that you're supposed to follow? I'm sure there's protocols, and we're going to have a lot of lawyers with us. And, you know, like I said, it's going to be a big team. It's going to be a big team of people. I'm not here.

I say join the fight. If I was 20, I would say, let me fight for you. And I'm going to have to fight for you while you guys are sleeping. But just join the fight. We're not here for the office. We're here for the people. We're here for our freedoms and we're here for our businesses. That's why we're here.

And I was so enthusiastic about this. And I said, people say, don't talk about it. But I said, no, I'm not here to take the people's money. The money that comes in from the government, I want to put it to programs. And I want to make this governor's administration as powerful as it can possibly be. And I want to, you know, it's about holding on to that power too. I've only planned to run for one term because I'm not here to be,

I want to be with the people. The mana is with the people. We have the power. I want to be with the people. I'm only planning on going in for one term. Can I ask you this though? What if you don't accomplish everything you want to get done in one term?

What if it's more difficult to get through the maze of bureaucracy? I'm here to work with—I want a strong lieutenant governor. I have the lieutenant governors that I see that are coming in. I want to work well with everybody and endorse who I have to. If the people need me and they say, BJ, let's do it. We need you one more time. Of course, I'm going to come and stand up for the people, you know, and that's why I have no problem even doing this in the first place. I would have never had the life that I had if the people of Hawaii didn't support me the way they did. I would have never got to this

success and all of these things. I didn't win every fight. I would come home with my face beaten and battered, and the people of Hawaii would say, hey, you've got to fight again, BJ. You can do it. You're our hero. Come on, let's show them. You can show all the kids, show everybody.

Don't mess with Hawaiians. We can do this, and they've always stood behind me, and I've got no problem doing this for them. And it's for our children and for everybody. So I'm just, you know, I'm in, and they're going to keep coming after me. They're going to keep throwing whatever they can at me, and let's go. Let's go. BJ, you got to get together with Jesse Ventura.

Yes. I need to talk to him. I had him in mind, Jesse the body. And Hawaii's got so many different problems with our housing problem, our energy problems, now everything with the gas. And I really want to invite Elon Musk to come over and see if he could help us with Hawaii because it's a landlocked state. And, you know, everything comes in off the boat and you got everybody talking about the Jones Act. Do you know what the Jones Act is? No, what's the Jones Act?

That's an act that makes all international boats go to California first before they come to Hawaii. They can't just come to Hawaii. This was made back when Hawaii was a territory. So all kinds of different things that a lot of different people talk about. That sounds so inefficient. You know, Hawaii is the most unionized state but our families all work in those unions we're all together so we all have to figure out how to update all of these different things and make them work properly do we just bring the boats

from in do we do we build our docks bigger so they can take international boats but just have our unions be the ones to take to take all the stuff off their boats so our unions still you know control the docks and not other people not international people controlling our docks because of course we want our people from home those are our cousins those are our family right you know so whatever you know you hear all kinds of different stuff from you know the big the big things in Hawaii right now, the housing, the rising cost of living, you know, the education and, and the, the, this, the rising cost of living is, is what's killing everybody right now. And, and, and we, we have no self-sustainability, you know, you see, you know, how big the big island is. I believe we could do the right thing. And, you know, from Wailuku River to Waipio Valley, that's 50 miles of water and farmland. And they're talking about

growing 100 million trees for the climate. I'm saying every tree better have fruit on it then. Every tree better have food on it. You know, we're stuck dependent on a boat coming in and out. And even more, we have to protect our waters. You know, all the water is held in perpetuity to the people of Hawaii, but we almost need to go one step further and make it a national treasure. I didn't say a federal treasure. I said a national treasure to the people where you can't just start diverting waters and doing all these things. I mean, you take half the water from a stream coming down,

you kill half the life that was around in that stream. And these are all things that I've seen growing up and that we have to think about our sustainability. And sustain is you're staying in the same place. We need to thrive. We need to move forward. The airplanes come in full. They drop everything off and they

go back empty. Why? Why? Why does that happen? It doesn't make any sense. How much change would have to be done for Hawaii to be completely self-sustainable? Like what kind of industries would you have to put there where you never have to get anything off of a boat? Is that even possible? Well, I don't know. We would have to figure out what we're going to do with petroleum. But that's why I want to talk to people like Elon. That's why I want people who know different things. You've got a lot of sun, but I think solar in its current form.

We've got a lot of sun. I think solar in its current form is great, but I don't think it's really capable of running a whole city yet. I don't know what we have out there. We have to figure out. I mean, the gas is expensive. The gas is expensive in Hilo. Yeah, gas is expensive everywhere.

It's weird. I've never been able to understand that. Right? Did the oil disappear overnight? Where did it go? Where did it all go? Somebody tried to explain it to me and I glazed over. I was like, I can't pay attention to this.

Whenever we go to any of those, there's a lot of speaking meetings. And I think, hey, this is some real mixed martial arts, this stuff. Because not only do you have to know what you got to do when you get in. Well, there's a lot of black and white stuff. And that's like freedoms or like basic stuff. And then there's state budgets. You know what I mean? That gets gray.

Yeah, yeah. Gray areas. You know, that's where you got to have a lot of people helping you out. Right, right. You know what I mean? Oh, my God. And you must have, like, to make bad economic choices could be horrible. Oh, man.

You got to really make sure you make the right choice. And so you have to bring people in. Can we do this? Is this feasible? Yes. That shit's got to be scary. No wonder why they like towed the line. Just like they try not to fuck anything up.

They probably have so many problems. Like, let's not fix anything. Let's just not fuck it up any further. You know what it is? They're political entrepreneurs. How are they going to get to the next thing? How are they going to work their way all the way up to governor? I'm lucky that I was in the UFC and that whole UFC is so big in Hawaii.

That's why they're giving me a chance with this name recognition. I talk to Dana. I say, hey, Dana, I got a good chance for my name recognition in the UFC. He goes, that's amazing, man. How can I help? So it's exciting. Lorenzo is excited about it. He loves it.

That's wild. Yeah. Well, I'm excited you're doing something that you believe in, and I'm excited. I love when a legend talks about that decision to step down and stop fighting. And I think that that's a really important conversation for young guys to hear because you're getting into this game,

and you've got to realize this is the most wild, crazy, exciting, but ultimately physically damaging game there is other than maybe football. Football players players they fuck each other up just running full tilt into each other but mma is even more personal even more psychological because you know it's just you and this other guy and then you set a date and it's fourth of july weekend in vegas and your fucking billboard is outside your hotel window and it's giant you can't sleep you know it's what you guys have done, you know, is it's very, very, very extraordinary and very difficult to achieve that kind of level of success that you achieved.

A small handful of them ever do in time. So for you to admit that it's very difficult for you to feel like for your identity to step down is very important for young fighters to hear because they're going to know that this is a part of everybody's journey there's going to be a part where now maybe if you want you can coach maybe you can help young fighters coming up with your wisdom and your perspective and you know fighters would fight very very hard for you like a guy to be able to train under a guy like BJ Penn, holy shit, you'd get some dedicated guys who would be drawn to you.

But it's just, it's going to be, the time in the cage is temporary. And I'm glad that you said it the way you said it because I think that's very valuable for people. And I want to say to all of those fighters out there, some of you guys are going to be the world champions, some of you guys are going to make a lot of money, but let me remind all of you guys, MMA is not a career. It's an opportunity. And you go out and you make the most of your opportunity when you get that

chance. And when it's time to walk away, I've had a very, very rough time myself walking away. And I just wish and I hope you guys the best for your guys' future. That's a beautiful statement. And I love what you're saying because it is true. And even though guys are doing it for a career, it is an opportunity, meaning it's a temporary career. It's not like being an accountant. You can keep going. You've got thicker glasses.

Keep going. You can keep working if you want to keep working, if you have the money and if you need the money, rather. But for MMA, there's a window of time. And that's why I think it's so important to judge a fighter by their best work. I always say, I don't want to say there's a goat, but for me, when anybody tries to say anything bad about Mike Tyson, I go, there was a window of time where Mike Tyson was the motherfucker of all motherfuckers.

You don't know. I'm getting chicken skin. You weren't around back then. You weren't around back then. You weren't around back then. From 86 to whatever it was, like 89, Mike Tyson was the motherfucker. Yeah. He was the motherfucker. He was the man.

He was the man. He was terrifying. And you don't get it because you weren't around then. And you got to think about a fighter like that from that time period. And how did he make you feel, right? It's not what they said. It's not what they did. It's how they made you feel. around then you know and you got to think about a fighter like that from that time period and i think and how did he make you feel right it's not what they said it's not what they did it's how they made you feel yeah and he still can make us feel that right there and we'll never ever forget how he made us feel yeah never never forget yeah there's certain fighters that when they you know

achieve great heights they achieve one victory after another victory, you go, holy shit, I feel like I'm in the middle of history here. I feel like I went and seen history. When Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock fought in the octagon the first time, I felt like, remember that? Yes, I remember that. People might think nothing of it today. You want to, oh, Tito fought Ken. Oh who cares Ken.

Hey that was the two biggest this was the guy who carried our sport in the beginning and then Tito was carrying our sport now. You know and that was them. I'll never forget that feeling watching them two look at each other

in the octagon. My whole body has chicken skin over it right now. It was just people don't, they'll be like, oh, but Tito just beat him up, Ken was old. No, that was two eras. That was an era and another era stepping in the ring for us to enjoy. And I'll never, ever forget that. Ever.

Yeah, man. Damn. Those were the days. Jason Perr perillo he always used to tell hey nothing more important than a fist fight but it's going on it's while it's going on right nothing more important yeah i've made the best friends and had the best journey and that's why we all love jujitsu and it's the camaraderie. Yeah. And everybody, we're all talking and laughing. No matter what, after the fight, you're going to have some laughs,

you're going to have some tears, whether you won or lost. Yep. You know? And what a journey. But I know that feeling after. I remember when I started kind of getting bruised up and stuff and I remember, I think I was in Australia.

I just fought Fitch. And I remember I went back to the, and my face was busted up because i couldn't even move in the third round and he just kind of sat on me and beat me up i went to the bathroom my my friend it was hoyt actually he goes hey come come here and he filled the whole sink with ice so i could dip my face inside oh i thought it's the first time anybody ever did this for me. I might be getting old. Put my face in there, you know. And when you get old, you start getting bruised. You know what?

When did you feel like physically things were different? Like around what year? I don't know about the physique. Well, I started looking. When I started getting bruises, I think. Because even like GSP sitting on me, hitting me forever, busting my whole face up. And it was like leather face coming out like nothing. Let's do a modeling shoot. But then I started getting those black eyes.

And my father told me, he said, look, you're starting to bruise up now. I think he was kind of saying it without saying it. But hey, you're starting to bruise up now. Because I was kind of like you know saying it without saying it but hey you're starting to bruise up now because i would never have anything on my face so how old do you think i think it was around that time around the fitch time and it was it was probably around those times and then how old do you think you were when you fought fitch 32 33 but i started i but i always say for for any fighter, it's the miles. It's not the age.

It's like a car. You can't keep a perfect car in mint condition in the garage. It's the miles that you put in your body, like Julio Cesar Chavez and all of us, you know, over there fighting all those fights in the octagon and all those fights in the gym. Every day in MMA, you meet the new guy, the new a-hole who thinks he's the toughest guy in the world, and he's your sparring partner for the next eight weeks, and you've got to deal with this asshole, you know?

And I just got tired of that kind of stuff, you know? Now I just laugh when I see it because you know you don't have to go kick his ass. Did you get tired of, were you you just was it physically tired or was it your awaning of your enthusiasm you weren't as enthusiastic as you were when you were younger enthusiastic so then you didn't train as hard it's always an emotional fatigue you get but it's probably all of them you don't try as hard you don't train as hard you don't i mean you're just not in love with it anymore. But you try to put a goal like,

oh, if I could be the first guy to get three world titles, you know, that would, so you try to put a goal in your head that makes sense.

Right. You know? And, and it, and you keep falling up short and you're just like, huh? But,

still right now, I still, walking right here, I know I don't even work right now, I'm still walking right here. I know I don't even work out anymore. I'm still the toughest man on the planet. That's just how you've always been. I'll never, ever not think that. I'll be 80.

I'll kick your ass right now. Yeah. Well, for people who don't know, for young people that have not researched the history of BJ Penn, you must now go watch because you're in for a treat. You put on some spectacular fights. It was fun times, brother. Thank you. Fun times.

Thank you. Have you thought about doing anything else other than this running for governor thing? I just want to raise my kids and they're growing so fast you know yeah and i just want to be around and be around my mom now she asked me to move in with her since my dad passed away so man my dad was big my dad a lot of people don't know helson gracie came over and he pushed jujitsu more than everybody of course but i man my dad pushed jujitsu a lot. When the gym, you know how it was in the 90s?

Nobody really liked Jiu-Jitsu. Everybody liked kickboxing and boxing, you know. And the gym wouldn't be making money. And he would always say, just leave it open. Just leave it open. I'll take care of you this month. Leave it open. Wow.

He loved Jiu-Jitsu. He loved. I think he knew how important it was because he was a judo black belt. I'm sure he knew then. And also, you won the Mundial three years in. I remember those days, brother. You won the Mundial three years in. For people that don't understand how crazy that is, first of all, it's crazy to be able to get your black belt in three years.

Then to win the Mundial as a black belt after three years of training there's only one guy that ever did that that's bj penn man you did that shit and i was like we were all like holy fuck bj won the mundials that was wild people ask me they say how did you get a black belt in three years was it desire was it the dedication was drive? And I always looked at him and say, no, it was fun. You had fun. I had fun. That's the only way. You need to find what you love to do and become the best at it.

What's your favorite thing? Everybody's got their thing in them, you know? But it's just that accomplishment of being able to do that at that level three years in. That's nuts. Man. You know what's funny is John Lewis was telling Andre Pettinaris, BJ's ready to fight black belt.

Let him fight black belt. So I went over to Novo Niao and he goes, Andre's always the nicest guy, right? He goes, BJ, I believe in you. I believe you can be the world champion. But it's not me. You have to convince Dan. and he pointed at the whole group

we've grown up in such a serious sport right where everything is important you know yeah so i look in there he goes you we're gonna do a selection today you beat these two guys i give you your black belt right now and you're gonna be a you're gonna be on a spot to go into the moon jaw and then i won my two matches against the two black belts wow and and that was harder than the moon jaw because everybody's screaming in portuguese and this and that and that's all of their friends they know each other better than me i'm from hawaii you know but they love me anyway but still you know that's their brother yeah so we all did it and this and that i just hear a lot of portuguese going and i ended up winning and then i and then

i got to the the moon joe i'm glad joe hawk didn't show up that day because joe hawk was always my idol anyway you know i i can't beat him he'll kill me he'll kick my ass you remember joe hawk how tough he was right he's all of our idol and but that was the days of shaolin leo santos joe hawk and it was just a fun time and they really when i ended up with novo niao they really kind of reminded me of like a group of people from hawaii and it was just home still till today that's that's awesome that's that's my people yeah well it was a beautiful relationship And the fights

Some of those fights That you had man I don't know if you ever Go back and watch them But Do you ever Just fucking say Let me just take a look

At what I did I don't much Watch on YouTube I don't much You know I should You should Just for

Put a smile on your face Right Watch a BJ Penn KO highlight reel. Imagine when I'm older. Come on, everybody. It's time to watch. Put on BJ Penn KO highlights.

There's got to be highlights. Man. Yeah, it's hard for fighters to get past. To watch again. Yeah. It is because then I start thinking about me and doing it now. You know? Yeah.

Well, I'm 43. You know what used to help me when I would drive? I had this one gray hair on my hand. And whenever I did, I'd be like, okay, you know. And I'm 43. You know what used to help me when I would drive? I had this one gray hair on my hand. And whenever I did that, I'd be like, okay, you're fired. You don't have to. That's what did it. That's what helped, too. That's hilarious.

Yeah, it's like time doesn't give a fuck, BJ. Time doesn't give a fuck about anybody. Time has its own ideas, and you have a clock. Right. But while your fucking clock was ticking look what the fucking you did look what the fuck you did bj you fucked up a lot of people like that takedown defense there was spectacular while you're hitting it with uppercuts while he's trying to take you down this is another thing you did in that back take thing with matt hughes you uh were one of the first guys that was very effective at trapping arms oh yeah I love that still to today where you can kind of trap their arm and you could even suffocate them yeah and that's why

I always think about yeah BS the mask is good for you did you see what Mikey Musumechi did to Imanari no they had a grappling match in one FC this is how good this Musumechi kid is I don't know if you know he is and Imanari? No. They had a grappling match in one FC. This is how good this Musumechi kid is. I don't know if you know who he is. And Imanari is a legend. I mean, he teaches us. We would go to his seminar, me and you. This kid buzzsawed him.

No way. Right through him. Dude, this kid is good. Where's this kid? He's in Vegas right now. This kid trains 12 hours a day, and I'm not exaggerating, BJ. He is fucking obsessed. He doesn't take days off.

He just goes. It's fun. It's fun for him. So they're exchanging leg lock attacks at first, and Imanari traps him. He looks like a kid. He's young. He's in his early 20s, I believe. He's very young.

But the guy's so good and just constantly drills and has fantastic defense too. So his leg lock defense and his offense is very high level. To have Imanari to have your leg like that, imagine what me and you would be thinking. Crazy, you're dead. Oh, my God, he's going to break my leg. Yeah, but he's – look at that right there.

I mean, that is insane. What? That foot lock right there. That is scary. That attempt looks insane, but he gets out of this that's what's nuts so he starts attacking iminari's leg and iminari's like okay i gotta address that or i gotta hang on to this i gotta make a choice so he makes a choice and so now he's got his leg out and now musumechi's got him in real danger so iminari steps up and he tries to attack it inside heel hook. So they're battling

back and forth. And Misumachi eventually I think it's right out of here. He gets to his back. So here. So here he uses that right that underhook and bam. He clamps a hold of his body. Now he's got him from behind.

So all he has to do is get his legs out and he's got his back. It's pretty interesting. behind so all he has to do is get his legs out he's got his back it's pretty interesting oh look he'll look again this is amazing stuff right amazing stuff so he if you don't know like iminari is like this wizard he's been doing this before us yeah yeah he was the man here's this kid fighting with him this is amazing yeah so now mozumechi gets him okay he mounts look how quickly amounts is beautiful mount So he's got him on the back ground got head and arm control full mount look how beautiful that mount is too Just quickly and he just clamps a hold of them and then he watch how he takes the back here BJ This is wild shit because it's so quick. It's it's hard to see how he's doing it

Watch this little slickness right here So he holds on to him. Look at this. Wow. Wow. How about that? Yep. Can I see that again?

Wow. Now, by the way, folks, he's doing this to Imanari. Look at this back take. Imanari has been doing this before me and Joe started. That back take was nasty. Amazing. Amazing back take. So this is how strong this kid is.

Off the going to your knees. He this kid is off the going to your knees he takes your back off going to you going to your knees and this is what i was going to get to okay he triangles okay the arm under not just hold it like you did okay he triangles it that's his move how does he get how do you get he just pushes watch i'll show you okay he's very flexible with his legs and good leg leg dexterity as well but he's hunting it got a whole system of how to set up arms, and he drills them, how to set arms and trap them. Right there. There it is right there.

Look how he goes across. He just keeps going until he gets it, but he pins that arm down. And once he pins that arm down, see how he gets it under? Okay. There he got it. There he goes. There he goes. Now he's got it.

Now he's got it. So now he gets it. That's the one I love. Now he's got it trapped, and then he moves it to a triangle. Look at that. Wow. It's over. You'll never get it out.

Nasty. Never getting that out. That's nasty. Wow. So not only did he take the back, but he triangles his fucking arm, and now he's battling off a rear naked choke from one of the best guys in the world with one arm. And the Japanese are the greatest in the world at defending back submissions and all that. This kid is nasty.

So he keeps digging. He's using the classic, you know, tuck your thumb, go under the chin. And he's getting across. And he's just trying to get it all the way across so he can grab that shoulder. And now he's got the shoulder. He's got one arm under. He's fucked now. Look at that.

And watch how he sinks his choke in. It's a one-arm choke, but he reaches back and goes right through like that. Look at that. Wow. Bam. Wow. Nasty. Yep.

How nasty. That kid's fucking good. I cannot believe that. I cannot believe that I just saw that right there. Well, this kid has been elite of the elite in no-gi grappling. He's done a lot of gi work, too. A lot of gi grappling, too. He's elite at gi grappling, as well. But in no-gi,. He's done a lot of gi work, too. A lot of gi grappling, too. He's a lead at gi grappling as well.

But in no-gi, he's been fantastic. So is Gordon... He's not a jiu-jitsu black belt, Gordon? What? No, I was asking you because I thought I saw him with... Well, he's a Donaher black belt. Okay.

I guess it's a no-gi black belt. I think maybe he's trolling. Yeah, because I saw he's wearing a blue belt. Because he wore a blue belt one day and a purple belt the next day? Yeah, that's what I was... I was trying to figure out what was going on. If he's notlling. Yeah, because I saw he's wearing a blue belt. Because he wore a blue belt one day and a purple belt the next day. Yeah, that's what I was trying to figure out what was going on. If he's not a black belt, who the fuck is? You know, if Gordon Ryan isn't a black belt, how stringent are your requirements?

You got literally the greatest on paper, the greatest grappler of all time. And he's only 25. He's only 25? Yes. Wow. Maybe he's 26 25. He's only 25? Yes. Wow. Maybe he's 26 now. Is Gordon 26? Look, he got his brown belt.

That's not real. Yeah, I was trying to figure out what was going on here. That's preposterous. I mean, unless he's fucking around, he's like, I don't want a black belt. Give me a brown belt. How heavy is he? Gordon's about 240 now, somewhere around then. He was having some stomach problems problems but he seems to have worked

them out for the most part although he did say um you know it depends on what he eats if he eats well his stomach doesn't okay he got staff a bunch of times and he was on antibiotics for a long time and it just fucked his whole gut biome yep yeah he would eat it's a it's a certain reaction where he would eat food like and almost everything he ate made him nauseous. Interesting. I see you doing a lot with the diet and stuff nowadays. A lot. You're into the meat or whatever.

I'm into the meat or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, because I see so many different things out there. I eat a lot of meat. Okay. Yeah. I love meat, too.

Yeah. You know, it's a complicated conversation that's also wrapped up in politics. I wanted to ask you about that. Okay. You know, because people, like, they associate meat with climate change. Oh, yeah, yeah. You don't care about the climate. Don't you know that eating meat is a big problem?

We're God now. We're God now. We're going to fix the Earth. Well, we shouldn't fuck up the Earth any more than we've already fucked it up, and they probably should come up with some methods to mitigate it. But you've got to be rational about certain things. Like regenerative farming is real, which means like there's on some farms, if they run them correctly. And again, I'm a moron.

I don't know exactly if this is true. But they're talking about it being able to achieve a carbon neutral state on a regenerative farm. So a regenerative farm is where the cows graze and then they shit and their manure is used as fertilizer. And then there's other animals that roam the land like pigs and chickens. And they all shit and eat and take care of all the little pests, little bugs and shit and keep everything clean. The microbes. Yeah. And they run like what the world is supposed to be like okay Cuz that's really within a fence or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they just do they there's a guy named Joel Salatin

And he does this and he has like a whole system and what he does is just moves them to new areas Yeah, he constantly has them roam around the land. I just kind of like moves them in like movable pens. Okay, okay? So they're always in nature. They're just kind of corralled in. Yep. But they live like an animal's supposed to live, not like factory farming or anything fucked up. Gotcha, yep.

And in doing it this way, they believe that they can achieve a carbon neutral effect. Okay. And the real problem in this country is it's not just in terms of pollution. There's a lot of pollution. There's plastics microplastics that they keep finding in our bloodstream and we're doing nothing to about that. There are studies that are coming out about this now that show that it's leading to a decrease in sperm count for men, an uptick in miscarriages for women. Interesting. There's things called phthalates.

Phthalates. It's a kind of a chemical that comes from petrochemical products. And when it gets into a mammal's bloodstream it fucks up the reproductive system well that's in a toothbrush and everything then phthalates i mean plastics right i don't know i don't know what it's in i know it's in a lot of things okay i know it's in like when they when you microwave plastics like that's probably not a good idea because it goes in your food into your food and when you're heating up plastics and it's attached to your food probably not the best idea

which makes sense right I mean it's made out of fucking gasoline and you're heating it up yeah scientists analyzed blood samples from 22 anonymous donors all healthy adults found plastic particles in 17 half the samples contained PET plastic which is commonly used in drink bottles,

while a third contained polystrine, polystrine used for packaging food and other products. A quarter of the blood samples contained polyethylene, from which plastic carrier bags are made. Jesus Christ. So our Ziplocs. So all our, we're breathing this stuff in. We're getting it from food. We're getting it from all kinds of different things. It's in the air, right?

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, there's some particles, I'm sure. What is brake dust? What are they making those things out of? Because that's a real thing. Brake dust is a real thing. You know, when you live in a place, no bullshit. Like if you live in a place like New York City, there's like people constantly braking around you and traffic, that's like little puffs of this stuff.

And you see it on the rims. Don't you see it on the rim? That's a real thing, BJ. Brake dust in the air is a real thing. Yeah, I believe that. 100%. They say that living in like a high population, high polluted area like that where there's a lot of traffic. If people are just using regular internal combustion cars like they are now, unless everybody switches to electric,

you're ingesting a certain amount of chemicals that are coming out of those cars, whether you like it or not. Yeah, 100%. If you're walking this way and everyone in this side has a fire going on, that's what they have. They have a controlled fire. What are they burning? Yeah, you're right That's what they have. They have a controlled fire. What are they burning? Yeah, you're right. They're burning gasoline. It's a controlled gas. So they're burning gasoline, but it goes through a bunch of filters.

Don't worry about it, BJ. It's fine and clean. And it goes through all these filters and comes out the back end, but you're just walking next to that. That's crazy. And imagine if you're jogging, the people who jog on the road. When I used to drive home and I lived in LA and I'd get stuck in traffic, I'd always feel like shit when I got home.

And then I realized, oh, asshole, you're out there getting poisoned. You're on the highway. Right? If you're on the 405 and it's bumper to bumper traffic for an hour and a half, bumper to bumper for an hour and a half, you're breathing in all these fires. Everybody's got a sterno can. You're breathing that shit in. Isn't that crazy? It's true though. That's got a sterno can. You're breathing that shit in.

Isn't that crazy? It's true, though. That's what it is. A bunch of controlled fires. It's a bunch of controlled fires. And you're breathing the air in. Whatever's left that the engine doesn't suck in. And burn off.

Yeah. Fuck that. You know? Yeah. That's got to be bad for you. There's like so many different things that we, you know, because civilization is amazing. It's amazing that you can get medicine. It's amazing that you can get education.

It's amazing you get safe housing, that all this stuff can happen in an area. That's civilization. That's amazing. But it comes with consequences. And one of them is one of the things that we've been using, plastics are getting into our bodies and it has disastrous consequences this woman named dr shanna swan she wrote this book called countdown and it's all about these phthalates and these petrochemical products and what they're doing to reproductive systems and because i remember they always have those things to take out the heavy metals and stuff but but now we got to get one to take out the plastics, huh?

I don't know what they can do. I wonder what they can do. But the real problem apparently is when these phthalates in particular infect women when they're pregnant because then it has an impact on the development of the child. development of the child. So more so than it has an impact on an adult who's already, it has a, during the process of maturation inside the womb, like that's when they think it has effects on kids. Cause this is what they're thinking about. Yeah. Cause this is what they're thinking about with mammals. The study I believe showed that with mammals, when there was a large presence of phthalates or a presence of phthalates, they could see that the male animal was more feminized. They had smaller testicles, smaller penises. They had smaller taints.

And they don't want to fight back. Wow, that's probably. Right? Yeah. There's probably a lot of that there. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

That's a thing that's going on in the whole world. It's easier to tell somebody what to do when they're not going to say, I don't want to do that. I wonder what the fuck we could do about these phthalates. And I wonder what they could do about, I mean, microplastics. And that guy, I'm sure you're aware of that guy uh boy on slot who built that is a young kid who built that machine that's cleaning up the pacific garbage patch yeah i heard so i i didn't i didn't know exactly what name that was but i heard about somebody trying to clean up that plastic yeah the ocean i mean he developed this idea when he was 19 years old

the kid's a genius so what does it do well it's a machine that skims the ocean they actually have a working model of it now and not only that but you can actually buy products that they create from that recycled plastic which is pretty badass yeah they have like sunglasses and i think they have a bunch of other stuff now but back then when he was on they had sunglasses but this machine it goes through the ocean and scoops up all this plastic. Okay. And over time, look at this. This is all stuff that they've gotten out of the ocean.

Wow. Isn't this insane? So this garbage patch is gigantic. It's this huge spot in the middle of the ocean where I guess the currents pass each other and it allows all this garbage to kind of stay there and collect. So it's this massive, massive area. But look how much shit is in it, man.

Wow. That's all just floating around in this massive spot in the middle of the ocean. You know who, the fishermen who live off the ocean, they litter the ocean. That's horrible. They'll just drink a soda and throw it over there. That's so crazy. It blows me away when I see that.

It's so sad. It's so sad if someone does that. It's so ignorant. Right? It's just they haven't been educated. Someone didn't respect them, and then they don't respect the ocean. Someone should tell you what that is. You live next to an amazing natural wonder.

Yep. When you stand by the ocean in natural wonder yep you know when you stand by the ocean in hawaii you look out you're like this is crazy there's so much water out there how was your trip to maui i love it i love it you had a great time right on hawaii is my favorite spot well when i when i become governor i'm gonna come back man yeah i heard you're planning on moving to the big island one day or you're thinking about it? I thought about it. Yeah. I'd heard that Terrence McKenna's house was for sale up there. But someone told me it burnt to the ground.

Terrence McKenna. Terrence McKenna is this psychedelic pioneer who's an ethnobotanist and just a genius guy. I was a giant admirer of his work. And he had a getaway in Kona. Oh, nice. his work and he he had a getaway in Kona oh yeah he lived in this area where he had set up like this whole psychedelic plant compound like all over his his this plot of land he was growing all these plants that they had acquired samples from overseas okay he was a scientist and I wrote a bunch of amazing books on psychedelic drugs.

Oh, wow. And that's where he lived. But I believe his place burnt to the ground. Oh, that's terrible. He would live there and then he would, every six months, he would get on a plane and go do speaking tours. And there's a lot of these tours. There's a podcast called The Psychedelic Salon.

And they put up those. You can listen to most of them he has it up there lorenzo from the psychedelic salon big shout out he has all these um conversations that mckenna had in front of uh audiences and conferences and debates with people really really fucking interesting dude and that's where he lived i heard his house is for sale then I heard it burnt to the ground so is that true did it burn to the ground the only thing I can find at the moment is a reddit thread of people saying they found it in the last two years so they found the house Oh reddit found it I'm never buying it like they're not sharing the where it is they said like I found it cryptically and I

found the directions and well I could it cryptically and I found the directions. Well, I could always ask his brother. I'm friends with his brother. But he was something special. Very, very entertaining and interesting guy with some wild ideas. Interesting. He thought that people were going to create a time machine. It's almost like they got a time machine. I don't know. Right? What do you think about that? you gave up on the aliens you give up on all these different things but man these just like biff and back to the future did they did they steal the sports almanac and go back i don't think they did i don't think they did i think that life

reality is slippery and we always try to control it in our head at least we want some order to it you know we just want some order to to life want to make sense it doesn't make sense so it always feels crazy it always feels like ah maybe maybe this is a simulation maybe or maybe life is just bananas maybe it's life is like really fucking crazy that's that's what i'm going with i don't think it's a simulation it's pretty crazy for the animals right when living in the amazon forest or in the safari. Yeah, it's crazy fun right now. Their lives seem crazier than ours, so why would ours be a simulation?

I got way too down the rabbit hole with these Instagram pages that show animals killing animals. There's so many of them. BJ, I spent like an hour the other day on YouTube just watching animals getting taken out by other animals.

Man. There's so many of them. It's like an animal could just be born and snatch right away. That's amazing. That's just life. Life will beat you to death. And that's what it was for most of the time when people were people. That's what it was.

You go outside, you get eaten. Right. Stick together. Be careful. Carry spear. Point it out at the jungle everywhere you go. Because there's always something waiting to pounce. Because they said that people never used to live as long as us.

I mean, we weren't there, but we don't know. Yeah. I mean, why is it? I mean, if you really think about any kind of injury you got back then, broken leg, dead. You're dust. You're dust. Yeah. Tear your ACL, can't run, dead you're the elephants they just keep walking yeah your tribe would just keep walking yeah

you go down they stomp you dead right you know they got humans got down there was a point in time when that when a super volcano went off around Indonesia, where they think humans got, was it called a Toba, is that it? Humans got down to somewhere in the neighborhood of like 70,000 people. Wow. Was it 7,000 or 70,000? 5,000 people? That's crazy to hear.

It's in the thousands. That's like Noah. That's like Noah. The name of that race was Noah, 5,000 people. Yeah, but that was just one moment in time. Yeah. Here it is. 3,000 to 10,000.

Oh, no. Surviving individuals. According to the genetic bottleneck theory, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, human population decreased to 3,000 to 10,000 surviving individuals. Because it could be as low as 3,000. Yeah. And that's just... So, if that happened, for sure people ate people. Right?

Guaranteed. You had to. You had to. You get down that low, you get down that low, when people die, you got to eat them. Yeah, survival. I mean, I wish we had real news. I wish we knew what was going on around.

And then it makes you wonder, okay, well, if we don't have real news, what's up with our history, you know? Yeah, what is up? What's up with any history? What's up with Hawaiian history? What's up with Tahitian history? What's up with any history, right? We don't know anything.

There's independent people that you can trust. That's all there is. When something is a part of big organizations it's reasonable to be skeptical i'm not saying that it's impossible for a big organization to be objective but they're so influenced by advertisers they're so influenced they're so influenced they have to be they know where the money's coming from yeah they're not going to pretend they don't know where the money's coming from that that too you know i talk to cultural advisors all the time from hawaii or wherever and i and i say come on let's be real

you know you weren't there we weren't there we weren't there you know and we can just go as far as our grandmothers and uh you know that's how that's how far we can go hawaii is a wild place man because it's five hours on a plane over the ocean and yet it's america right and it's and we can't drive out no we're stuck we're there you know and and and i but it's paradise you can use this as a control group i i mean i remember when they were offering us the um it was like when i fought laoto and i came back and i could be wrong, but I could be making a mistake. But I remember they were offering us the swine flu shot not too long after I got back fighting Lyoto. That was right when Obama got in and just made me wonder because I was never really a flu shot guy in the first place.

You know what I mean? All of us. Yeah. I mean, you cannot set a sports world record unless you know about your immune system. Unless you have

some kind of knowledge. Imagine a guy like Floyd Mayweather, what he knows about his immune system. Every time he stepped in there, he made sure that he was ready to go. There was nothing wrong.

Because no matter how good you feel, no matter how hard you train, you're only going to use the game plan to how you feel. If you don't, I know we planned on this, but hey, I don't feel like hard you train, you're only going to use the game plan to how you feel. I know we planned on this, but, hey, I don't feel like that right now, so we're going to do this. You know, and it's just life, right?

You know, you get put in those positions. Well, the thing about Floyd Mayweather supposedly, and there's a thing that I tweeted the other day that was a YouTube video that I watched. Floyd Mayweather's work ethic was insane. Insane. They said that that dude Zab Judah went to train with them because they had fought and uh and then Zab went and was sparring for him and when they were working together uh Floyd would call him up like two in the morning let's go run he's like what the fuck are you talking about okay let's go to the gym it's two in the morning he's like two thirty in the morning you want to go to the gym and then like eight hours later he'll call

you up let's go run like he was running twice a day he gym. It's two in the morning. He's like, two-thirds in the morning, he wanted to go to the gym. And then like eight hours later, he'll call you up, let's go run. Like, he was running twice a day. He was running sometimes 10 miles in the morning. Amazing. He ran constantly. And that's one of the things about him is like his cardio was off the charts. Yep.

Floyd never gets tired. Never. Never, ever. Never. You never see him like huffing and puffing. And he beat Canelo. Can you believe that? He beat Canelo.

He beat him clean. Right? He beat him pretty clean. But he was smart too. With that, with that. Yep. Bang. He made Canelo get down to? Can you believe that? He beat him clean. Right? He beat him pretty clean. But he was smart, too. With that bang. He made Canelo get down to 152. Remember that? Smart, man.

Very smart. Very smart. When you think about Canelo Bivol. Who's Canelo Bivol? No, Canelo's fighting Bivol. Bivol is... I've never heard of Bivol. He is, I want to say, he's a cruiserweight champion?

Is he a cruiserweight champion or light heavyweight? No, he's light heavyweight, I believe. I believe he's a light heavyweight champion. Is that correct? Dimitri Bival, light heavyweight champion. I heard they were talking about Canelo and Usman or whatever. Yeah, they were talking about that. But MMA, it's truly the only sport because, like,

George Masvidal was like, oh, Usman still is not a real puncher or he still is not a real striker, even though Usman did catch Masvidal and he's the only guy to put Masvidal down. But MMA is just such a crazy sport that he might be kind of right by saying he's not really a full striker yet, but he knocked him out. I couldn't believe that when George got knocked out because that was the first time ever. Were you there?

Yes. Wow. One punch. I think Usman, in terms of welterweight, he's going to go down as one of the greats. Because he's doing an Anderson Silva type run right now. He's already almost caught up to GSP. If he's not the greatest of all time, he's doing an Anderson Silva type run right now. He's already almost caught up to GSP. If he's not the greatest of all time, he's in the conversation. Like, if you look at all-time greats,

like, I don't see a person at 170 that's ever lived that I think is a favorite against Usman. I've never seen that person. Right. I've never seen that person. You're right about that. They might exist, but I've never seen him. Right.

You know? I mean, we were worried maybe it would be Hamza. Like Hamza seemed like he was that guy, but he just jumped right into the deep water with Gilbert. Yeah. But if you look at the difference in their performances, and I know you can't do MMA math. It doesn't really work that way.

But if you did look at the way Usman handled Gilbert. Compared to Hamza. Hamza got in real trouble. Right. Makes you wonder. Usman keeps getting better, man. And he can punch now. He keeps getting better.

One punch. And he's... Masvidal. The coach, he's in Colorado, right? Yes. Trevor Whitman. Trevor Whitman.

He's doing a great job. Trevor Whitman's a bad motherfucker. Yes, he is. That guy's a wizard, too. He's got rows, too, right? Yes. Yes, he's amazing. He's amazing.

He's made a better MMA glove. I don't know if you've seen it. Really? Yeah. Onyx, his company. But you don't poke people's eyes? No, it's like you're curled into a fist. It protects your hand better, too. And it's a

more dense foam, so it's the same weight, but it's superior construction. I put it on and I was like, dude, this is the best MMA glove I've ever felt. And he's a genius with that shit and I don't know why the UFC hasn't adopted it. I want to send them this afterwards. You need to get these fucking gloves.

They're the best gloves. They're better for the fighter's hands. They're better for fights. I think there's a real possibility that they can eliminate a lot of eye pokes. Because they cause you to curve. You can open them up if you need to grapple, but they cause you to curve. You'll tell me, a lot of the UFC guys say that the gloves almost feel like they're opening you up. You can't grab anything. Once you once you tape your hands you do your grappling is done

You're basically like this at that point, you know, unless you have giant hands like some dudes like that. You ever do them Lesnar Like a triple X glass Well, you know, his gloves are bigger Shane Carwin's really bro shane carwin looked like a fucking comic book superhero when i met him shane carwin where is he is he from texas colorado okay he's a denver guy okay he trained with shab and uh you know when he was the interim champion dude i don't know what year this was i was living in color, so I guess it was 2009, and I was doing jiu-jitsu at Amal Easton's place, and I look up from the mat, and there's this dude who walks in

who doesn't even look real. He looks like if the thing from Fantastic Four was a person. He's that big because he's in between fights. He's like 300 pounds. I wonder when Shane Carwin first fought in the UFC. I think he'd already fought in the UFC by then. But he was so big. Look at the size of his hands.

I remember... That's Shane's hand on the right and Brock's hand on the left. But that's a bad perspective because Brock's hand has turned slightly sideways. But Brock's whole first round against Shane was like the biggest man in the world on his back. Just covering up. Just like this. Dude, if Shane just paced himself and didn't like completely empty the tank, he would have stopped him.

Yeah. He just got so excited that he emptied the gas tank trying to put him away. If not for that, Shane Carlin would have been the heavyweight champion of the world. More fights have been lost by doing that than anything else. Another thing I always hated too was like using your legs like a triangle or an armbar or trying to do some submission, and then the round ends, and then now you've got to fight

and your legs have nothing. You want to look at your corner and be like, no, I want to fight. Just my legs, my body count. I want to fight more. Yeah, when a guy jumps on a guy's back and tries to ride his back and hold on and and take his back from behind like boy if you don't get that one yeah if you don't get that one

that's so much standing up you're talking yeah that's so much 100 that's a big one yeah yeah sometimes guillotines right sometimes or a darsk they go for it. Any of those. And they just blow their arms out. Yeah, really, man. That's stuff you really got to be accounted for. Yeah. When you're in the ring. How much different was that for you when you were incorporating that crazy strength and conditioning routine? Was that where it made the difference, like in those moments?

You know, yeah, I guess. I think it made the difference in the speed. In the speed. The speed was everything. Because of all the plyometric drills? And he would call it stretch speed or something. And he's like, don't stretch too much because you want your tendons to be able to react back. Your ankle will go like this. But you don't want to always stretch too much.

You want to just always be able to reflex. And that's what he was all about he was all about moving your body as fast as you possibly possibly can that's what marinovich was about he had those different things where you throw the things off and push them with your legs but it makes sense as long as you have the kind of technique that you had but in the product of in the process of developing technique, it's like how much time do you spend with that kind of strength and conditioning versus how much time do you spend learning technique? Well, there you go.

I mean, sooner or later you're going to have to go and shoot some baskets. How are you going to get better at surfing? Sooner or later you're going to have to paddle out. Well, look at a guy like Anderson in his prime. Now imagine if you don't have the kind of skills that Anderson has in his prime, but you're in really good shape that's not gonna help you you're just gonna be like you're just gonna be the best the best shape guy at the club getting his butt kick you're just gonna get beat up for a

little while longer that's all it's gonna be you're gonna survive for a little while longer while Anderson tunes you up yeah like you need skills you need skills are the most important thing and the one thing you can't improve, no matter how much times you do it, is getting hit. You don't get better from getting hit. You get worse. We've seen how many jaws crack. Yeah, a lot.

Right? Like, and then, boom, it cracks. And you're like, oh. It's just, they keep throwing that little rock at the glass, and then a crack, and then it cracks. Who's the most durable and resilient guy that's ever fought in the sport in terms of longevity? There's only one answer. Longevity.

Let's hear it. Andrei Arlovsky. Oh, that I cannot believe. Cannot believe. Because he started with me. He's still winning. And he's still going. He's still winning.

I cannot believe. Andrei Arlovsky looks great. I bow to you, Andre. You are amazing. You inspire all of us every day. Come on, man. I cannot believe. Andrei Arlovsky was the UFC heavyweight champion of the world.

And what year was that? What year was that? He defended against Paul Buentello. I remember that. What year was that? He won it against Sylvia. Right. And he defended against Buentello. Then he might have lost it to Sylvia. Right. And he defended against Puentelo.

Then he might have lost it to Sylvia. I want to say that was like 2003. Yep. What a great... He's amazing. He's amazing. And then he went to... He was in New Mexico.

Bitch, it is 20 years we're talking now. 20 years in the UFC. He's still knocking people out. Insane. He made it a career. 2005. 2005. He made it a career.

So it's been 17 years. Wait, he started fighting UFC 2005? Was that his debut? UFC 28. Before me. That was in 2004. So debut in 2004, the champion in 2005. But my first fight was 2001. Oh, yeah. What was his debut? 2004 was his debut. UFC 28 was 2000, actually, it says. Oh, yeah, yeah, because that was UFC 32, which was 2001. Yeah. Wow. Amazing resilience.

Belarus. I mean, that dude has been around, son. Yes, it's not even a question. Andrei Orlovsky. He is. He fought fought everybody he is the the quintessential and he's still winning that's what's crazy he's got to look at me and say mma is an opportunity my ass bj this is my career it is for him for him he fights saturday night oh my gosh that's a good card, too.

I like that card. Imagine. He's so amazing, this guy. It's incredible. That is incredible. He really is. He's too amazing. 33 and 20.

Proud of this guy. It's just the enthusiasm still there. The records show nothing. The records, like you said, it's on the day when that happened, right? Yeah, on the day. You have to look at the overall body of work, but you also really have to look. I mean, when I talk about greatness, that's what I like to concentrate on. I mean, there's a lot of amazing fights and there's a lot of amazing fighters and great wars and everything.

But there's something about extraordinary greatness when a guy just has total domination over a division. You know, and you had that. And George had that. And George had that. And there's a few guys that have had that over time. Usman has that right now. Mighty Mouse had that. There's a few guys. Izzy has that.

You've beaten everybody in the division. You kind of own in the division. That's a rare gem of a fighter. And my thought is to always analyze those people at their peak of power and destruction. And you get to watch them. Like Stylebender versus Paulo Costa. That's the peak. Yeah, exactly.

He's at the peak of his powers. Exactly. Just full wizardry in effect. Right. You know, just put on a show against the most dangerous guy in the division, the scariest guy in the division. He just lights them up like a Christmas tree. Right. does whatever he wants i like i like style bender love style yeah but his technique is like what what that's a it's a rare thing when a guy gets to that that where are you talking what we're talking about when someone's just dominating a division that's a special kind of athlete to be able to do that because sometimes you don't even because

what did everybody say when anderson was was dominating his division oh well he doesn't have a strong division but he made it not look like a strong division he was he fought good guys i mean it is true you are who you fight and that's why ali was so lucky to have frazier and norton and foreman and have all these guys but and, remember when he jumped around and then when Carlos Newton shot at him and he kneed him in pride? He was just dancing around, moving, moving, moving. And boom, that's the setups that you were talking about. When you were talking about his setups and I was thinking about when he kneed Carlos. Yeah, he was phenomenal.

He was such an animal. He was so good. And it's just, I think that what we're all doing is, as fans, we're observing it. And as guys like you, you're participating in excellence in a discipline. And this discipline is fucking people up. And it's a complicated discipline. And everybody approaches the discipline differently. You know, Brock Lesnar was like, ground and pound, smash smash get you to the ground beat the out of you yeah you know

and olivera real technical with his strikes nasty submissions i love oliveira and i tell him all the time i say because i always see him with makako and i always tell him i say i say you know what i love about about you charles you always stayed with Makako. Never left. And us being jujitsu guys, we know what that's about, being a creole chin and stuff. And Makako always looks at me and he nods his head because he knows that we're from that generation.

Ever back then, it was little gangs, like the jujitsu gang, the wrestling gang, the kickboxing gang. It was all a bunch of gangs and everybody carried their own flag and it was it was different than it is now and i think imagine getting into this now i mean

where would you start where do you begin i yeah you know it seems a lot more scary like for me and i was like oh i had it easy man everybody was just starting out you know these guys are crazy if you started out from the beginning like say if you were a young kid if you wanted to coach and everybody was just starting out. These guys are crazy. If you started out from the beginning, like say if you were a young kid, if you wanted to coach a young kid, would you say go to an MMA gym or would you say specialize in something first? Like while you're young, specialize in jujitsu,

specialize in kickboxing, get really good at that. Specialize in wrestling, get really good at that. Then you can go start learning all that other shit, but you'll always have that one strength over people. That's what I've always said my whole life, but I don't know now. I don't know if a guy like Trevor Whitman can just train a kid, you know what I mean, and grab him and just take him and just take him all the way.

But I always used to say before, find what you like the most. What do you like? Do you like striking or do you like grappling? Which one do you like the most? Oh, okay, you like wrestling. Okay, try to become an olympic wrestler go do that try to go to college go do that as far as you can and then when you're done doing that when you're done with that dream start to add everything else that's what i would think before because that's what i did right i did jiu-jitsu till i was a world champion i tried to add everything else am i slowing the guy down by

doing that now i don't know know. I think I would, I think I would have to sit and talk to people. I'd talk to you. I'd talk to Eddie. I'd talk to all of these guys. I talked to Perillo. I'd go talk to Trevor Whitman. I talked to Javier, you know, I don't know. Taking into consideration people's physical limitations too, right? That too. Well, that's a fact. That's a fact. If you're, if you're training someone from the jump, there's no real guarantee that they're ever going to be really good. That's why fact. That's a fact. If you're training someone from the jump, there's no real guarantee that they're ever going to be really good. That's why I don't train people. Because they

got to leave you anyway. To be the best, they've got to leave you. And here you were just putting everything into them. You know what I mean? And you're going to have to bid them a farewell, be nice and bid them a nice farewell because they got to learn more than what you have to teach. Especially if your income relies on them.

That too. You need fighters to pay you because that's how you make a living. Right. There's a few guys that seem to have a fantastic relationship with their pupils like Firas Ahabi. He's got a fantastic relationship with all his fighters, and I love the way he runs his gym. He's such a philosophical guy

Yeah, then he imparts a perspective in these fighters just from the way he carries himself and the way he yeah I mean he's like one of the you ever sat down had a conversation with him just a little bit here and there But I know people yes. He is very articulate like that. It's brilliant brilliant guy, and that's why he's so good as a coach I have so much respect for the MMA coaches, and I tell Jason Perillo all the time. I said, hey, we started together, but look at you, man. You're out there swimming. I think it's harder to be an MMA coach and make a living and pay your rent than the fighter himself. You've got to count on somebody else to go out there and perform.

Yeah, he was with me. Then he got Michael Bisping to the championship. he got chris cyborg to the championship now chito vera is working his way up mackenzie durns mackenzie work yep and yeah chito vera's with him all the time chito vera's fighting rob font this weekend wow that's a serious fight yes that is a serious fight too hungry those are too hungry guys i'm fired up for that that's hunger that's hunger right there those two guys fuck yeah that's a great fight and it's a headliner on espn plus and i i because god throws you out there and it's like sink or swim and and i'm like man jason perillo he's swimming out there look at this guy super well that's why i was with him yep and i it's just amazing these coaches

they know they know a lot yeah they to put so much in a fighter. When you find some kid, you don't know if he can take a shot. You don't know. There's so many things. You don't know what happens when the heat gets turned up to nine. You've got to weed them out right away. Okay, get in there right now. Go ahead, go.

You want to fight, step in the ring right now. Let's see it. BJ, one of the things that Mike Tyson was talking about was when he he met custom auto the custom auto also worked with him under hypnosis and so he coached him and put him in a state of hypnosis and would would coach him and and talk to him about mindset and like get him programmed wow and then also physically super crazy gifted right like he was he was he told me was 13 years old he was almost 200 pounds he's in the 190s at 13 years old he goes jacked so he was fucking kids up that were like they had no business being in

there with him and then on top of that he's got custom auto who's coaching him and coaching him on psychology. Customato was the guy who said, fear is like fire. It could be your friend. It can cook your food. Or it could burn your fucking house down. Yep. Fear is like fire.

I don't think he said fucking. I think I added a fucking. Yeah, fear is like fire. Yeah. That was one of the phrases that Cuss would say. Mike Tyson run into Customato right when he was maturing to he's 13 years old so he's physically maturing and then he's with this real psychological wizard who's an amazing boxing coach and he raises him to become one of the greatest heavyweights of all time i mean that movie that yeah when they i

know they're doing a movie with Jamie Foxx. Jamie Foxx is playing Mike Tyson. That's amazing. That's crazy, right? It's crazy. That is amazing. Because Will Smith was Ali, right? He did a great job as Ali.

He did. He did. He did a great job. I like that. And you could tell he did a lot of boxing. Like, his hands look good. Right? His hands look good.

His hands looked good the other night. I think that needs some work stagger chris rock everybody always says you know you know i hit chris rock because it wasn't the rock yeah could you imagine come on man come on there's not a chance in hell. That was just so crazy. So crazy to do. Such a crazy thing to think you could get away with. You know what? I was actually, I know I got this whole governor thing going, so it's always, I always talk about it all the time,

but I was actually filming a show when Nate Diaz came on and Bam Bam Baklava. Yeah. He came on the show Action Bronson yeah Action Bronson and and and this other comedian from Hawaii Lanai and we were it was called the regimen where we go around and so James Lurie he shot it for us and and they're trying to do something with it but we will go around to all the different fighters and kind of just talk to them about their regimen for their life.

You know what I mean? And what they do now. And sitting down with Nate, he gave me a lot of info. He was like, and he told me a lot of stuff. I go, how did you get into this and that? And he was like, well, when my mom would let us go with her brother while she went to work because the brother was a track and field coach at the gym that they were at, Stockton or whatever, the high school. And that's how they got into all that conditioning. You know the Diaz brothers crazy conditioning stuff, right?

Yeah. So I never really knew about that. It's kind of generational, their conditioning. It makes sense now after watching them beat everybody's ass in the fifth round. Yeah, they were doing all kinds of crazy triathlons and cycling events and swimming from Alcatraz. Nick swam back and forth. The last time I was in contact with him, he said it was five times.

Wow. Five times he swam from Alcatraz. I wouldn't jump in that water. Fuck that water. Dude. People get chopped in half in that water. Fuck that water. Dude. People get chopped in half in that water. Right, right? Yeah.

He was in Hilo. He was staying with me for a couple weeks in Hilo. He went down the White Peel Valley and stuff, and he was just trying to get his head right. First of all, what if you get run over by a boat? Any of that stuff. I mean, I know the odds are small, but don't the odds get greater as you get closer and closer to the water? Or to the shore, rather? Like, if you jump from Alcatraz and you go straight through, aren't there boats going through that?

There's boats going through that, BJ. I don't know how he wouldn't be scared of the sharks. Fuck, man. What about the boats? The boats, any of that. I would be worried about some drunk dude playing Billy Joel down atel down at pap's blue ribbons and he's gonna butcher you with a fucking propeller man fuck that dude yep captain jack will get you i would definitely worry about sharks too though yeah that area is like a great white breeding

ground that's what i mean Nick's an animal Five times He's an animal that guy Five times At least That was the last time I was in contact with him Wow Because I said he did it two times And he messaged me

Nope five times I was like oh shit Five times No five times Five times That means he did it three more times Since the last time I heard about it Such a beast

Yeah him and his brother I wonder what they're going and his brother. I wonder what they're going to do with Nate. I wonder what's going to be the comeback fight. Right? Because he's talking about trying to get out. Yeah. Right? I think if they give him the right money, I think he'll stay. Yeah, of course. I think he'll stay. If he wants to keep fighting.

Whether or not he wants to keep fighting. There's only one place for us to fight and that's in the UFC. Would he do... Man. Is that good? What? Is it good that there's only one place to fight? Or would it be UFC. Do you... Man, is that good? What? Is it good that there's only one place to fight? Or would it be better if there was a real viable option? You don't think Bellator's a totally viable option? I think...

Well, they were just in Hawaii this last weekend and I had a great time at the show. Of course... You know who I think is right there? Of course I wish that there was people that they could... Remember I went to K1 for a little bit? Yes, I do. They were paying me big money.

Yeah. They were paying me big money. Yeah, but I'm just glad you came back. Oh, I'm so happy I came back. Yeah, when you came back, you went on a fucking rampage. And so a lot of people don't, like, when I won the lightweight belt, that was kind of towards the end of my career. That wasn't towards the beginning.

Right. You know, kind of had like two or three kind of mixed up careers here and there there's guys over at bellator that i go man that guy like here's one musashi yeah i did not like style bender yeah we want to watch that fuck yeah we want to see i did not like watching musashi go over to bellator for that reason. Because I knew Stylebender was so good and Musashi so good. Yeah. And, you know, I think when I watch Musashi, I go, man, that guy might be the best. Right? He's up there. He's up

there. And when he was in the UFC, when he beat Weidman, he beat a lot of people. He's elite. You know? Yes. Yes. He can fight with Stylebender. Well, I'm sure. That's the fight we want. It would be fascinating, for sure. It's the fight we want. It would be fascinating for sure. Like it's a good

it's an exciting matchup because he's a real fucking real veteran. He really is. Real veteran. I remember the Austin Vanderford fight.

Is that who he Yeah he just Okay what did he wipe him out? Did he wipe his husband? Yeah he wiped him out. Wiped him out. He clipped him early

hurt him rocked him smashed him and he just buzz sawed him. He was there from the, hurt him, rocked him, smashed him. He just buzzsawed him. He was there from the pride days. He's been around a long time, dude. Right? And he still seems pretty hungry, actually.

Still seems very hungry. Right? I think he's making good money. You know what? I think Bellator's taking care of him. Right? Yeah, he's still got his hunger. You know who had the hunger forever was Bisping.

Oh, yeah. And then he came back and won that belt. Oh, yeah. With one fucking eye. We're talking about have the hunger. Bisping fought 10 fights he came back and won that belt. Oh yeah. With one fucking eye. We're talking about have the hunger. Bisping fought 10 fights with one eye BJ.

10 fights. Bisping and Matt Serra was the two guys I called personally and said I wouldn't have anyone else I wouldn't rather have anyone else be the champion

than you guys. That's awesome. I loved it when Serra was the champion when Bisping was the champ. I was very happy for Michael because you know that was like

it could have eluded him. He might have had to retire. The guy hung. I was very happy for Michael because, you know, that was like, it could have eluded him. He might have had to retire. The guy hung in there with one fucking eyeball. Like, do you know, I don't think people understand how crazy that is. Right? Not just to fight with one eyeball, but fight in the UFC. The best fighters. To fight Anderson Silva with one eyeball.

So he basically said everybody after that Vitor fight, he was blind in that eye. That Vitor fight, when Vitor hit him with that head kick, from then on, his eye was fucked. Bunch of operations, never got his vision back. Now it's completely gone. Once I got the cataract, I don't even know if I won since I got the cataract surgery 10 years ago. Because I ended up getting a cataract.

Do you think, is cataract something that you get just... It's from fighting. It's got to be from fighting. It said on the prednisone, you could get a cataract. Do you think, is cataract something that you get just... It's from fighting. It's got to be from fighting. It said on the prednisone, oh, you could get a cataract, but I'm just like... And I was taking it at the time, but I think it's from getting hit in my eye. For sure.

Yeah, yeah. And then I did a lot of acupuncture and stuff, and it brought my eye back. I could read and everything, because it looked like a kaleidoscope at first for a while. brought my eye back I could read and everything because it looked like a kaleidoscope at first for a while it came back I could read but it didn't have I didn't do as much this part was the problem I think that perception yeah oh and then so this eye would be like that so I'd kind of like try to use this eye to maybe I would square myself up I don't

know but let's just say I got old and started getting my ass kicked that's enough well the the interesting thing is one why i asked you like at what year you started to feel like how old you were when you started to feel the decline what you said was indicative of like what we used to think of fighters we used to think fighters hit like 33 34 things they start going downhill 35 36 37 38 you get to like 38 39 as a professional boxer Not a lot of guys in that area not a lot of percent. There's a few George Foreman's There's a few rare Sergio Martinez was at one point Tom He's like fairly advanced in age and really good, but after you get like in the late 30s It's like there's something going on clearly for most people. Yeah, but for were on the sauce, that's where it got weird because they could keep going.

Yeah, that's where it got weird and that's where we got confused and that's why I thought it was a career. I'm over here taking the light force. You know what I mean? And I'm in my 20s and I'm gassing out and everybody's still going. That is the difference. You fought natural. You fought natural at a time where very few people did. And we both know that.

You know, without accusing anybody. It was just a fact. We don't have to accuse nobody. It was just a fact. Everybody knew it. Everybody knew there was certain camps that had even hired doctors that would make sure that you tested clean. That's what I couldn't believe when the doctors started showing, oh, this is my doctor. This is my doctor. Doctors in the camp. Yes. There were certain

guys that had a lot of money and they wanted to ensure that they had the competitive advantage. They thought about it the same way cycling teams thought about juicing up Lance Armstrong. I remember when I was going to fight Dennis Seaver and I worked out and stuff but

I didn't care. I was just I was just drinking just hanging out I show up to the fight I didn't I didn't care about it was towards the end of my career I show up to the fight and I see Dennis Seaver and I go yeah I'm gonna win look at him he looks he looks like he's done we went to go to the weigh-in and then the he had a doctor and the doctor did introduce himself. I'm the doctor for the team or whatever. But I saw him, and I was like, I'm going to kill him. I don't even care how I trade for this fight.

I do my flex and everything. When I walked into the ring, I couldn't even believe the guy. I saw on the other side how much bigger he was. And I was getting older towards 38 or 40, but I wasn't afraid of nobody. You know what I mean? Like, oh, he looks a lot bigger, but let's go. Let's do this. But just thinking about all that, like having a doctor and all that.

But I remember thinking at the weigh-in when I saw him, I said, I'm going to win. It doesn't matter how I trained. And then when I saw him in the ring, it was just two different people. Did you not train as hard as you would have liked for that fight? Towards the end, I guess. You didn't have the enthusiasm. Yeah, and you're like, hey, you could train real hard and lose, and you could not train real hard and lose.

It just got, yeah, but we know. But you see how the brain changes. And I would say what changed is when I was a kid this is all I wanted all I wanted and then I had those things now I wanted more I wanted more cake come give me more come give me more and right you know what I mean but but were you willing to do what it took you know and and but even if you but even if I did i mean still i was older and these kids are younger and it just is what it is it just is what it is i got no complaints either way no matter what i did no matter what happened no matter any of the controversial stuff that ever happened in my whole career i got i love everybody I love everybody. I love everybody who punched me, everybody that let me punch them,

all of my friends and foes. Someone should do a special and just call it prime and look at the elite of the elite fighters in their prime. In their prime. Just only look at, I mean, whether it's Ernesto Hoost over in K-1

or whether it's, you know, George St. Pierre when he was a welterweight champion, like look at people when they're in their prime. Look at you when you were the lightweight champion in your prime. Look at Anderson when he was middleweight champion in his prime and just analyze how exceptional these performances were and just do like a breakdown of the evolution of martial arts, of mixed martial arts, because it's one of the rare sports, PJ, where we were there.

We saw it early on. Right. I mean, I watched my first one when I was 94, and it was at a video store. I got it at a video store. Like right after it came out, they released it as a video. I didn't watch it live, and it was like UFC 2. And then from then on, I've been watching.

I think that was my – the first fight I ever saw was Pat Smith sitting on it and boom, boom, boom, and then elbow. That I've been watching I think that was my the first fight I ever saw was Pat Smith sitting on and boom boom boom and that ninja guy yes remember that guy was practicing like ninjitsu and we don't know much about him because he's a ninja isn't that what they said yeah well he was doing all these ninja warm-up moves in like the video Scott Morris or something, right? I think that was his name. I don't remember. But that was wild. And I remember the elbow one. Yep.

Because I talked to Remco on Instagram here and there. Remco Pardew. Yeah. And I go, hey, I think that might have been the first fight that I saw. That was against Orlando Veit. Yeah. I remember Orlando Veit was a badass Muay Thai fighter. He was, right? Was he good? I didn't know about him. He was very good. Okay was a badass Muay Thai fighter. He was, right?

Was he good? I didn't know about him. He was very good. Okay. Very good Muay Thai fighter. He was a Europe guy. Okay. I think he was, I want to say Holland.

I might be wrong. Okay. I don't remember, but he was a very good Muay Thai guy. And he looked great, but Remco got him in judo side control. And he was huge, Remco. And just blasted him. Yeah. That was crazy.

Do you remember when Remko fought Marco Huas and Marco Huas got mounted and he just tapped? Because back then, everybody thought if someone mounted you, it was over. Right. Remember those days? Yeah, yeah.

I forgot that he fought Marco. Marco just mounted him and he tapped. Was that when Marco kicked Paul Varlin's legs? Yes. The same tournament? I don't know if it was the same tournament, but that was that era. Remember Marco?

That's crazy. They had three question marks on his age right he looked like he stepped right off a beach yeah who awesome he had a perfect body perfectly tan beautiful man big giant guy with huge fucking hands and huge feet Marco Huas was the shit yup he was he was the shit

look at him look at that come on son with the speedos get the fuck out of here man Marco Huas was the fucking man an animal yeah

Marco Huas was the man and we all wanted to see him fight Hickson and all that remember yup well he was the first guy that showed us that you could utilize leg kicks and stop a guy and chop him down.

We didn't even know that. Yeah, he was really the first guy. And then Maurice Smith did it. Oh, yeah. Then we got to see, ooh, this is a real elite-level kickboxer doing it. And then Maurice survived against Coleman, won the decision. Yes. Right?

I was there for that. Wow. Yeah, that was back when I was doing the post-fight interviews. Okay. I remember I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. Maurice was talking to him while he was kicking him. He was like, ground and pound me, Mark.

Come on, ground and pound me. Whack. Ground and pound me. And he was like, moving in front of him. Whack. And Mark was like, motherfucker. Right? He just kept slamming him with those shins.

The jiu-jitsu guys came, then the wrestlers came, then the strikers came. Well, the era of mark coleman that was a big deal because mark coleman was 265 and fucking when mark coleman entered the scene everybody got bigger everybody gained weight everybody got bigger everybody was lifting weights you had to keep that fucking gorilla off you yeah that. That was during the headbutts, no gloves days. Man, Mark was telling me, Mark,

Mark and Kurt, he was telling me, yeah, me and Kurt and Kevin, everybody were hanging out and we were all jacked and we were getting ready for the Olympic trials and then we saw,

and then we saw Kurt Angle walk in and, and then we saw Kurt Angle jacked bigger than us and then we all, we all put our head down and knew we were done. They couldn't get one over on Kurt anymore.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Dude, guys like him and Dan Severn, those early wrestlers, so important. What about Severn? Severn's still around. Severn has a podcast with Don Fry. He seemed pretty natural to me, Severn. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, as far as his look. He seemed very natural. Very natural. Yeah, I don't know either, but I don't think he ever took anything. I bet he didn't. But he was a beast. He knew how to wrestle. Fuck yeah, he did. Right? And he was the first guy we ever saw get tapped in a triangle.

Remember? Oh, yeah, yeah. And then the first guy we ever saw tap from that too. That's right. Coleman got him. He tried to dig his eyes and everything. Yeah, Coleman got him in that judo side control. Yeah. But imagine like jiu-jitsu, like a jiu-jitsu black belt versus a jiu-jitsu blue belt.

That's how we would have to think that Coleman was so good at that time at wrestling that there was no way Severin would have been able to stop his takedowns. He was so good at wrestling, and he was ridiculously strong. And he was hungry. And that was a no-glove fight. Yeah hungry. And that was a no-glove fight. Yeah, right. It was a no-glove fight. You could headbutt back then.

It was very different. You wore shoes. Mark tells me till today, BJ, I never thought they'd take out the headbutt. I never thought in my wildest mind. I never thought they'd take out the headbutt, bro. Yeah. He was the king of the headbutts because he would get on top of you, and your guard, man, your guard had to be on on point because Marcus trying to smash you with his fucking forehead

Yep, when you got a guy who's that big as big as Mark with a neck like my waist He was just slamming into your fucking face with his head for that doesn't hurt his forehead It sure as hell fucks up all this shit though If he's head butting your nose that your mouth, that's a real weapon. 265 coming at you, holding you against the fence. Let me ask you this, BJ. Why is it okay to elbow someone in the face, but it's not okay to headbutt? Yeah.

Like legitimately, I want to know. I think it's for the people outside the ring. Fuck those people. Fuck those people. We're here to find out who's the best. We're here to find out who's the best. We're here to tell those people how it's supposed to be done. Like this is what the

sport is stop pussying it up while they're still allowed to knee people in the face and shin people in the face and elbow people in the face it's crazy i i think when the ufc came out reality television was out and was big and the ufc was the reality sport for the generation yeah it was perfect yeah it lined up perfectly. It was really promoted on the internet, on those forums and all those different things. Well, once the Ultimate Fighter broke out- Then it was done. And that big fight between Stefan Bonner and Forrest Griffin in the finals were such a wild fight.

Yes. And everybody was calling their friends up. They said, I forget what the numbers were, but but at one point in time it was millions of people were watching it on Spike TV because people had called their friends and go you gotta watch this shit it's crazy yeah that took the sport off and that is that Boris Griffin's that's a fighter really did is my TV here is Spike TV dead now my TV's gone yeah it was a UFC left. They changed it to the Paramount Network. Right? And I don't know if that's

still around. But it's a completely different format. Interesting. And it was. And, you know, that but that, having that opportunity to get it on television and to do it through a reality show at the time where reality shows were at their peak, it was perfect. It was perfect.

It was just aligned aligned like the stars aligned and and we were waiting for it all this time because you know nobody knew that i beat matt after the ultimate fighter came out then i'm walking down the road hey it's the guy that beat matt hughes i'm like nobody knew that for five years when was the first matt hughes fight what year that was 2005. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when everybody got to know.

Well, when you watch the ultimate fight, one of the cool things about it is you got to see what a camp of guys training together would look like. Yeah. You got to see all the psychological dynamics that happen in camps. And they were sleeping in the same house and have to eat food and then go fight each other. And they were sleeping like in the same house and have to eat food and then go fight each other. And they were fucking with each other's food and shit. And that's all,

it's the emotional fatigue. That's what gets everybody, you know, because you train for hours and you train thousands of hours for this 15 minutes. Why are you tired? How could you possibly be tired?

Yeah. It's your mind. It's your mind. It's your mind. Your mind. Your anxiety. Betch Cohea just talked about that. She just retired. And one of the things she retired about was she's like the psychological burnout.

Oh, my God. Was so real. The antidote for anxiety is confidence. And I wish I even knew this sooner, but would when I would be like go to family court I'm like oh man I just made a bad mistake I hope I don't you know have to get more supervision on my kids or anything and I'd be so anxious and have anxiety to go to family court and then I would tell myself no I'm gonna win tomorrow I'm gonna win when I get in court and it would calm me and relax me.

So I just, you know, the antidote for anxiety is confidence. Yeah, but that works on you because you have a history of winning. I don't know if that works on everybody. Someone who's never won before. If you've never won shit, you're like, I'm going to fucking win, bro. You're going to get knocked out. Get out of there. You've never won shit.

That's the fucking brutal reality of life. Right. It's not even. It's not fair. Of those, like you said, and that's why Joe Rogan watches all those safari videos. I do. Because that's the reality of life. And the animals, what's amazing is they don't feel sorry for themselves.

They just sit there and they're just going and they're just doing their best. You know what's different? Predators. Predators fight back. Predators are horrified when they're getting eaten. It's interesting. They react so much different. They put their butt down because they don't want to get their balls bitten off, right? You always see them doing that, right? Yeah. When you see a predator getting eaten by another predator, it's wild. I was watching this video the other day where a crocodile grabbed, I guess it a jaguar jaguar or leopard i guess it was a leopard because it would have been in africa but crocodile grabbed a leopard i'm like what the fuck man right this thing thinks it's a

cat running around there eating things and it got a little too close to the water and this fucking crocodile just leaps out snatches it and drags it into the water it's wild that's great i watch that shit i'm gonna go google that i'm gonna go oh maybe jamie will pull it up well maybe there's probably multiple for yep i think this is it he's trying to get that yeah he's trying to get whatever that uh dead thing is oh that ain't it it was a much bigger one this is a leopard trying to steal its food the one that i saw was it actually killed the leopard it dragged the leopard into the water it was a big crocodile and the leopard was not that big because even the lions go after the crocodiles the alligators sometimes right yeah look at that

lions and the crocodiles you might not be able to find it what is that yeah they'll kill you on that they'll kill the crocodile oh yeah they Oh, yeah, they kill them. They sneak up behind them and they get their back. Jump on them, right? Yeah, they get their back. See how he was eating that? Go back to that. Look, he was in the middle of eating it and it flinched.

Look, it moved. Oh, it's a crocodile. It took it from him. So is that a, what is that? Oh, that's like an antelope. I thought he was eating a crocodile. I was confused. That's such shit resolution. I couldn't even see. I was confused. That's such shit resolution,

I couldn't even see what he was eating. That's all right. Don't worry about it. But the point was that this leopard had gotten too close and this crocodile just snatched him right out of the river and it was wild. That's the story of life. That's the story of life right there.

Do you think that as a fighter you experience life in a different frequency than most people? The amount, the intensity of your life, particularly while you were the champion, particularly while you were on that reign of terror. What was your reign of terror, if you had to give it a time frame? I felt like I've had two careers. One was when I beat Matt Hughes. I fought Gomi and then took that to fighting Laoto Machida

Then I came back into the UFC When did you fight Ludwig? Did you fight Ludwig during that same time? Right before Machida I fought Ludwig And then I came back into the UFC And that was my second career in the UFC But you were better You were always wild

But you were even better You kept getting better and better When I see Sean Shirk fight and Diego Sanchez fight I'm like I put that BJ pen up against almost anybody's ever lived that was the way I was that you could see it in those days there was those days where you I want to say I don't think there's an especially one but the Diego was even more impressive because the pace you fought at because you had problems at some fights with endurance, and you had none in that fight.

You had a wild pace, man. And Diego, who's known for his fitness, was the one that was backing up constantly, and he was the one that was in trouble. And you just put it on him, man. That was a super... And, you know, one of the things that Steve Maxwell had said, he was the guy that trained diego in strength and conditioning he's an amazing strength and conditioning coach he said that it's

for certain fights like that it's almost a bad thing to be in good shape because you're just going to get a beating longer he said there's a lot of truth a lot of truth because diego was so determined to not go down. So has there ever been a dude who has more dog in him than Diego Sanchez? I couldn't believe when I rocked him the first time and he went down and I hit him like, must have been 20 or 30 times as hard as I could. And then he got up. I was like, and I'm like, well, I'll just do this all night then.

Okay. Because you get nervous too, right? I can't believe you did that. Well, okay okay let's just keep doing this did you think like uh what do you think at those moments where you really hit the gas do you think okay now i gotta back off do you say do you go okay this guy's still here let me keep testing him or do you like try like in that fight you didn't have to worry about your fitness at all only only killer instinct is what you think i'm gonna get him i'm gonna kill his

that's why that strength and conditioning program for you is so important because you didn't have to think in any other way you could just go for it and you knew you had this crazy gas tank and the skills are always there the natural attack instinct is always there and it's almost more than knowing you have a crazy gas tank just forgetting about right tiredness don't think about it yeah you just fight that makes sense because during those days but but again the sean shirk fight i think was in that league you fucked you fucked him up when he was at the top of his game too but but like you said i i think the stress the stressors that we have been through in our lives takes us to a higher level.

And I remember it was Gilbert Melendez's boxing coach. I met him through a couple other friends, Dr. Pete and different people. He had a gym that was for businessmen, but they did MMA training, and it was to up their thresholds of what they can take and what they can handle, whether it's giving up, oh, I can't can't do quitting or sparring or whatever it was. And there's a lot to that. I think there's a, you know, we have ups and downs all day, every day. But we've had some ups and downs in our lives, right?

All of us have. And being around martial arts and being in a stress situation and being able to push through. And coaches, you know, there was this bill that they were trying to pass in Hawaii that would give coaches salary for schools instead of them just being volunteer. And it's true. We have to raise warriors. We have to raise people because is the math teacher and the science teacher going to say, hey, come on, and inspire you and say, get up.

You can bust through that line and you can do these things, you know. But there's a lot of value in the people that want to say, hey, come on, and inspire you and say, get up, you can bust through that line, and you can do these things. But there's a lot of value in the people that want to coach for free. I'm not saying they shouldn't be compensated, but if something is an amateur thing and someone can afford to coach for free, there's a lot of guys out there that really enjoy doing that. 100%. There is. I'm not saying they shouldn't get money. And those guys should still be around if they want to go in and add

you know what I mean there's obviously coaches that get paid but man it's um when you're getting into a thing like MMA it's such a big sport now but when you get down to like the lower levels like some shit is very bush league like the way they match people up

you know what I mean 100% like you have to sell tickets like Bobby Green was explaining that shit to us You'd have to sell a certain amount of tickets to be in order to be able to fight So like yeah, BJ you wanna fight on my card you'd have to sell like 50 tickets, but you gotta go sell those That's crazy, right? That's crazy. It is very Bush League. There's a lot of that shit out there There is guys and that's why we gotta love the UFC. No, it is very Bush League. There's a lot of that shit out there. There is. And that's why we got to love the UFC. Yes.

Right? For sure. They do. For sure. You might not have liked what you got paid, but you got your money. You're never going to say that you didn't get your money. They always give you your money. Always.

I had that very conversation with a coach about that today. Yeah, that's a fact. One of his fighters was talking about boxing. And he said, listen, you need to understand that the amount of people that get that big payday is very small and you need to understand that a lot of these guys they get into lawsuits like right now Logan Paul still hasn't got paid for Floyd Mayweather Wow Mike Tyson has some real serious issue about his money Roy Jones jr. had some serious issue about his money like there's there's problems with boxing and money with the wrong promoters right you get

with the right promoters everything right? You get with the right promoters, everything's smooth, develop a nice relationship. You never hear about Canelo not getting paid. Canelo gets fucking paid. The Gypsy King gets paid. But there's some scumbags out there in all sports businesses. I remember always hearing about that in Japan. Like, BJ, if you're leaving UFC and you're going to go fight over there,

make sure you get your money when you step into the ring. Well, how about Bob Sapp? They didn't even let him sign a contract. He's like, I'm not fighting unless you give me a fucking contract. And they're like, fight first, then contract. And he was like, uh-uh. And so they canceled the headliner event. And Bob Sapp was fucked after that.

It became a real problem. I remember me, Gary Goodridge, and Bob Sapp were standing in the back for K-1 Heroes. And Bob Sapp is crying and nervous in the back because he didn't want to go out and fight. He was scared. Wow. And Gary Goodridge is like, come on, Bob. Get up.

Be a man. Get out there. Let's go. And I'm like looking at these guys. And these guys are 300 pounds. And I'm like, I wasn't scared. I was ready. I knew I was there.

But it's just interesting the different mindsets. I was like, I wish I was as big as you, Bob. Imagine what would happen. That's hilarious. Oh, my God. He was so big, too. He was. He was a big guy.

He was big. But remember when Mirko Krokop knocked him out with one punch? Right. Mirko Krokop is probably at least 100 pounds lighter than him. Well, he's another guy, too, where you got to say in his prime. In his prime. Yeah, in his prime. Like when he knocked out Vanderlei.

How about when he KO'd Vanderlei with that high kick? Yep. Holy shit. Like certain fights, like Fedor, Crow Cop. Yep. Jon Jones, Cormier. Noguera. Noguera and his brother.

Yes, the two top guys fighting. You know, I didn't sit down and watch the Kamzat fight, but I probably would have, like, because that's all I care about now. Like, okay, the two best in the world, they're going to be in the ring on that day. Okay, maybe I'll come watch. If not, I don't watch like I used to.

Did Nogueira fight Fedor after he fought Bob Sapp? Because if that's true... I think he fought him three times is why. Right. The first time that he fought him after Bob Sapp. Because the Bob Sapp fight was when he was the champion, right? It took out of both guys. And there's a lot of truth to that when they say that.

Noguera, the pile driver in the beginning. Right? There's a lot of truth in the animal kingdom and everywhere. If you're walking through the forest, why fight with the other toughest guy? You guys are both not going to be the same after. Even if you win. Just go eat the little animal over there. Why is the jaguar going to go fight the panther or whatever?

Because he wants to spread that seed. He wants his babies to survive. That's what's fucked about animals. But you've got to choose on the right day. Animals, they have a ruthless system. When the male animal conquers, he kills all the babies that the other male left behind. Right. That's what's wild.

They know what they're doing. They're trying to protect their genetic heritage. And that's the competition. How do they know that? BJ, I don't think it's much different than the competition to be the lightweight champion. I think it's the same kind of thing. How did BJ know he wants to be the lightweight? How did BJ know he has to kick all of their asses to get the belt?

Same way. Imagine if you have a pride alliance. That's your community. That's your world, right? Your world is the United States and the rest of the world that can watch you fight. But the things that are watching a lion fight are just the other lions. So there's a certain amount of lions lions and one decides he's the motherfucker and so he has to attack the other lion and then maybe lions jump in and help him and kill the old lion and then he takes over the throne and then he has to control that situation the first thing he's going to do

is kill that lion's babies right yeah because run. Just run around and kill all his sons. Because they will grow up like every movie that we've ever watched. They will grow up and kill you. Unless it's his babies, it doesn't have a chance. His babies are the only ones. Yep. He does not want any other male babies around. It's a fuck ruthless shit.

Nature's so ruthless. And he's not going to be like the stepfather. Nope. You know, my daughter tells me the other day, Dad, a stepdad is a man who stepped up. I go, you're right. Stepdad's a man who stepped up. Yeah.

You know, but that's not going to be the lion's job. Not in the lion world. Yeah. There's no stepdad. Fuck all that Lion King shit. They're ruthless. Right? They're so ruthless.

They are. And you're seeing like a lion's head up close. You're like, it's so big. Right? They're so ruthless. They are. And you're seeing a lion's head up close. You're like, it's so big. Right? Yeah. It's so big. It's so much bigger than you think it is. You know what?

You're making a good point talking about that. You ever seen a lion's head up close? They're so big, BJ. Amazing. They're so big. It's such a big animal. And what is it? He's not the biggest animal in there.

He's not the fastest. He's not the biggest because that's the elephant and not the fastest. But his mind. He's the enforcer. He's the enforcer. But he's the toughest. That's what's wild is that the females are running. It's really the only animal that you can point to where the females do the majority of the hunting.

Yeah, right? They go off and they go and hunt. Because with wolves, they all hunt together. But they all hunt. Like males hunt, females hunt. That's right. They go off and they go and hunt because with wolves they all hunt together But they all hunt like males hunt females hunt. They are but not with lions the females Hangs back and wait He just waits when it's time to come to my bedroom then you guys come back with the food and I'll be sitting right here. Well, it's also the fighting thing. That's why he's got all that fur. That crazy mane is to protect his neck.

That's what that's for. To protect his neck, give you like a mouthful of hair before you can get to his jugular. Right. Which is so crazy. That's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. And it's an amazing world we live in.

It's an amazing world. But it'd be better if people had more rights. It'd be better if people weren't fucked with by the government. Right, BJ? Yeah. And people always say, what's your platform? What's your platform? And we want less government.

We want less taxes. We want less regulations. Did you say recreational marijuana? That's what I heard. I'm not against recreational marijuana. I'm for it. Yeah. I'm for marijuana.

I'm for hemp also. But you know what else you're for? Discipline and hard work. And those are the two things that get thought of as mutually exclusive. People want to think of like potheads as being lazy. It's not true. No. It's not true. it's not true no not true it's not true this this is this isn't the land of handouts it's the land of

opportunity you know and that's that's what that's over here but what marijuana is benefits are is it's great for inflammation it helps a lot of people sleep it makes people nicer it makes you think about things in a different way it makes you maybe reconsider the way you're behaving or the way you're acting or what you're about to do or not about to do. Makes you think maybe I need to fucking get on the horse and get going. I need to do something with my life.

I'm starting to freak out. It makes you think. You're right about that. It's not bad. It's not bad. We need to stop treating grown adults like they're children and capable of making their own decisions. And that's what it is when the government tells you that you can't take something that's never killed anyone ever. And a lot of people find beneficial.

If so many people find it beneficial and you don't even use it, how are you informed and wise enough to tell grown adults what they can and can't do with something they enjoy that you have no personal knowledge of? 100%. It's something that isn't, it's very difficult to study because it was a Schedule I drug. It is a Schedule I drug. I am. I am for recreational marijuana, and I believe it could really help our economy over there. I hope that the federal government fixes that. That's what I hope.

I really do. I know that it was, what did they pass it through the House and now it has to go to the Senate? Is that what it is? It could sit there for a long time, though. How long could it sit there for? They don't have to vote on it. Not if Governor Penn gets involved. He's going to be running up the stairs of the Capitol, raising his fist in the air.

Get shit right. We always laugh and say, what law is more powerful, the state or federal? Whoever pays for it. Whoever paid for that. Who paid for that? What do the advertisers want? We just got to get the advertisers on a good path. Get all the advertisers doing things that are only beneficial for people.

But that's what we need to do over there in Hawaii because it's a bankrupt state, and that's when you're going to stick your hand out. And that money that we get from Washington that comes with whips and chains, you want to be able to have your option. That's why you want your economy. You want your economy strong, and you want your surplus up there, and we want to pull it out of a welfare state. Hawaii has been a welfare state all this time, and we want to—

Does that involve bringing industries to hawaii like how do you account for like jobs for all those people in a sort of a self-sustaining way is that yeah is that possible to engineer we need we need some new industries you know we need some things because there's a lot of tourism is it yeah tourism is everything right now and like i said the planes come in and they don't leave with anything you Right, they don't leave with anything. You know? So we need, you know, we need stuff to export and we need, we got to get our farming situation held, handled too. Because every time a new hurricane comes in and all those things, and then they tell everybody, get down and buy, fill up your groceries, buy everything at the grocery store, buy all

the gasoline you can. And, you know know and then where everybody's panicked do you know there's a wood that i think only comes from hawaii is it sandalwood yeah i think it's koa oh yeah koa i think that's only in hawaii which is wild yeah that's true is it true that it's only you know it might i think it's a native tree i think it's a native tree pretty crazy yeah think about like a tree that exists only on this one island in the middle of the pacific ocean yeah only yeah right here it is the species acacia koa only grows is that how you say it yeah acacia koa only koa tree koa grows only in hawaii and no place else

in the world sure other species of the acacia family grow in other parts of the world oh but none of them are isn't. Isn't that amazing? It's amazing. Hawaii had all of these different endemic things. It is amazing. And they developed on top of the volcano. They have a lot of trees and a lot of things, a lot of birds and different things. How did the seeds for those trees and all those native plants, how'd they get there?

You think they got there from birds? How'd they get to that? Because the island had to come out of the ocean right right or was it bigger and the waters were lower during the ice ages i don't it makes you wonder where because they've never found a like a like a the full like polynesian voyaging canoes and any of those stuff they kind of just they just kind of made it off of like petroglyphs and stuff. And they're like, oh, here's the Polynesian canoe. Here's how they had it.

But Captain Cook never seen those. But I don't want to get into big arguments with all the people because that's what they say. That's how they came over, right? They came across the ocean, were the best sailors. And then the story in Hawaiians for their myth or whatever is that then they burned the boats later. And everybody got stuck there. and then they couldn't leave one of the priests made them burn the boats you know for power and control or who knows we just don't know what happened hmm no I mean I'm native Hawaiian my mother's half native

Hawaiian but I mean what we don't know what year do they think Hawaiians let what Polynesian people landed there I think i think they think like a thousand years ago type thing just a thousand years ago yeah i gotta i gotta be what does it does it say on google when did the hawaiians get to hawaii uh first settled as early as 400 ce whoa but some of the hawaiian words in our language you know, like, like you got amor in Spanish is love. And then you got amor in Portuguese and then you got aloha, aloha. And then you got ali'i is chief. And I just think ali'i, well, that's the elite or whatever. You just see so many words that look like Latin and it's just, but it's one of the oldest languages or whatever but it's just

weird just our whole our whole thing is just life's just weird i wonder if this estimate of uh 1 500 years or whatever it is has been substantiated or if it's like a rough guess based on artifacts that they've already discovered because it's one of those things where they keep finding like in north america it used to be Clovis first. They used to think that the Clovis people were the first people that got here. Who were the Clovis? The Clovis were an ancient group of hunter-gatherers that lived here, and they're identified by a sophisticated style of point, the Clovis points.

And it comes from a specific era that they think these people came through. But now they've abandoned that, and they think there are people here far before the Clovis people, way before, thousands and thousands of years. I remember I was reading something and it was like Russia was the biggest. And then they went to make a new Moscow. So they went over through Alaska and then you say Moscow, then you say Moscow, then you say Mexico.

And Mexico City was this whole thing. But I love history I love reading through all that but what you're saying is that if people had been on Hawaii since the Ice Age so if we're going back 12,000 years ago right if people got there because what there were people around back then uh-huh at that point in time the the levels of the sea would have been way lower you would because there's way more no No, it's a fact. They know that for sure.

And maybe it would have been as hard to miss. But I don't know if that area, like I wonder how close ground would be to that area. Like if the sea levels were far lower because of the ice age, which they definitely were, I wonder how much water you'd have to traverse to get to Hawaii. To get to. Yeah.

Exactly. Was it big like Australia? How big was it when the waters were low? Because how did they find it, just a little space and a little place in the middle of nowhere? I wonder when it came about. Like when do they think Hawaii came out of the ocean? That's another good one.

What year would you think it would be? I mean, that's when they talk about the Earth's millions of years old. It's got to be old. Was Hawaii when the waters were lower? Was Hawaii something like in Australia, another continent over there? Because still, it's the most isolated place as far as from everywhere else. Distance to shore. Yeah.

Really, what we're saying here is very interesting. Because if it turns out that Hawaii is millions of years old, which I think it is, and then if it turns out that this was like pre-ice age when the sea levels were very, very low in comparison to what they are today, I wonder how much difference it was. Right. Because if there was people back then and there was people traveling back then, I wonder what it was like. And they track our language all the way to like Taiwan, to the natives of Taiwan, like the Austronesian.

And it's kind of like the Asians came down and then the Aborigines were here, then the Asian and Aborigines mixed up and turned into the Polynesians. Wow. Right, with the big nose and the eyes like this, but the big nose and the curly hair. And then they all came across, you know?

And so many warriors. That's another thing. Think about how many fighters have come out of Hawaii. Oh, man. How many? From Max to Yancey. I was just watching him fight the other night. And Kimo. Kimo, yeah.

Me and everybody. And that's why, I mean, Hawaii is so big for their sports. You know, we got to get our stadiums going again. Even Ensign. Ensign and Egan. Ensign and Egan. Beast. Right?

Yeah. Those are the OGs. Those are the guys who let us know we could do it. Shout out to the Inuas. Yeah. Oh, I love those guys. I just saw Egan the other day. But Ensign going out, he armbarred Randy Couture.

Yes. He fought in the UFC. I remember watching. I remember he was throwing those kicks off his back. Yep. He was amazing. And I remember he fought in the UFC. I remember watching. I remember he was throwing those kicks off his back. Yep. He was amazing. Remember he fought Royce Alger? Remember that one? I was there for that.

Royce Alger. He broke his arm. Ensign was the guy who let me know that, hey, people from Hawaii, we can do it. We can get in there. We can fight. They're such heroes. Yeah, man. Wasn't Dennis Alexio from Hawaii too? Well, he moved to Hawaii, but he was there fighting and kicking everybody's butt.

When he was world champion, kickboxer. Yes, the Terminator. And I met Egan when I was a kid. He was the world racquetball champion. That's right. And my uncle played racquetball, and we all went to a place called Fort DeRusse, a beach area. And Egan competed in the tournament and wiped everybody out. Didn't he hold a world record at one point or some kind of a record for free diving?

That too. That too. And he would just break the balls. When he'd hit the ball, he'd break the ball. Yeah, now he's like surfing. And whatever he wants to do, he's going to be the best at it. That's Egan. Nice.

Always. Well, BJ, it's been to be the best at it. That's Egan. Nice. Always. Well, BJ, it's been an honor to have you in here, man. It's always been cool to be a friend and respect. And as a fan, thank you very much for all those years of amazing, amazing fights. And I really sincerely believe that you want to do well for the people of Hawaii, and I think it would be amazing if you could pull it off. I think it would be fun. Thank you, Joel. And just good luck in everything you do, brother. You too, my man. All right. Proud of all your success. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you

very much. Thank you. Thank you.