The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #14 with Matt Brown

Episode Date: February 7, 2018

Joe Rogan sits down with the current UFC Welterweight fighter Matt Brown. http://immortalcombatequipment.co/

4, 3, 2, 1, boom and we're live. What's up brother? How are you? Very, very good. Thanks for doing this man. I'm very excited to have you in here. I'm honored to be here man. I was just thinking about this the other day actually. I was like, the fucking people that have been on this show man. Yeah, I think about it sometimes too. Freaks me out. Sam Harris, James Hetfield. Man.

Yeah, I was thinking about all the people, man. I was like, how do I compete with these guys? Just be Matt Brown. I know. What are you talking about, man? I mean, I could beat all their asses, but. Well, in certain situations, that's all that counts. The situations that I thrive in. Exactly.

So you were retired, and now you're not. Now you just signed to fight carlos condit you got it damn that's a good fight i like that yeah i think carlos needed to fight back to that fight with neil magni he looked like he was suffering through some ring rust looked yeah man timing i've talked to a lot of people about that because that's the first thing that always comes up right is how he came back and looked in that fight and i've trained with neil a lot man i'll tell you neil can shut a fucking game down right away yeah you know he's very good yeah we can't take away from neil man um carlos didn't seem to show any sense of urgency either though so you know i think it's both sides

but uh i think he's also gonna be looking for redemption with me yeah I think so too yeah he wanted to come back right away actually they actually asked me to fight as would have been like six weeks notice what's the longest you've ever taken off after I fought cowboy got knocked the fuck out and took a year off and fought Diego so what is it like coming back after a year it felt natural to me personally to you yeah yeah it's different for different people right yeah someone was talking to me about this day ring rust and i was like you know everybody's different man every single person is going to react a little differently and i think also when you have someone you know john danaher was talking

about like the different types of fighters, right? I think he just grouped three different types of fighters, like a violence guy, a tactical guy and something else. Well, I think it's going to I think there's more types of fighters than what he went through. But there's I think it's going to affect every single type of person differently. And I thought like I thought, for instance, like i fought a much more tactical fight against diego it wasn't i mean you could you could easily go in with diego and just go to fucking war with him right i mean he's melinda style exactly he's totally down for that like that's what diego is you know he will wake right up and go for that right yeah i was like man i'm better than him let's just be tactical and uh i think that was part of why it helped

now now i think uh someone that goes in with a more violent style, which I've done many times in my life, I think that's a bit more complicated because there's a lot more timing and reaction in that. Whereas the strategy, you have a very clear path to victory. You know exactly what you got to do. It's just, you're just going in there and just, you know, connecting the dots when you get in there and staying on the plan exactly yeah yeah now when you get a guy like Diego though that temptation has got to be always there right because he's so willing well if uh if it's necessary because you love that kind of fighting yeah that's one of the reasons why you're so loved like there's never been a matt brown fight ever that's boring there's

a lot of guys that have because of styles because of whatever they've had fights that weren't very crowd pleasing but your style has always been do or die seek and destroy that's one of the reasons why people love you yeah well i mean that just goes back to my mentality of why i'm fighting to start with right it's not really about just winning i think that's sort of a western culture thing sort of an american thing like i i kind of go back to the original pride and it's like look just fight man you know this is a fun thing this is a badass thing we're doing this is an amazing thing go in there and fight test yourself the bushido spirit things like that and not it doesn't have to be just win at all costs you know this is you know to me it waters down

the sport I mean that's not what combat is about so this is you know it's not me well I mean that's what makes it interesting is that there are different styles there's people that have safety first styles where they're just fighting to win and then there's other people like yourself that just whatever's inside you that comes out you know i always said this like there's certain dudes like uh because of your history because of uh i mean you had an overdose where you literally died and the same with Court McGee he had the same situation I always said that dudes

that have gone to the other side are fucking terrifying inside the cage there's like there's a certain thing I don't know if it's just coincidentally that both you guys have that mindset or let's forget about even Court but you have this mindset

and i've always said i wonder if there's a correlation between such extreme lows in your life where you bottomed out so hard literally your body had shut down and you were ready to you're ready to pass on the doctor saved you and you've got a mindset going into that cage that's just it's just another notch more intense than most people certainly and that's uh you know to be honest that's something i've sort of struggled with a lot too because it wasn't actually that specific moment um the overdose that kind of affected me the way it did it was more a long-term life of uh well i would say i've just been an angry person honestly like just since i grew up so it was all about channeling that anger um a lot of fighters like that right i think so i think it's one of the beauties of martial arts

that helps you channel that yeah i mean we all have to find an outlet um i i didn't discover martial arts uh until what 22 23 21 22 something like that and uh you know so before my outlet was drugs and alcohol you know that was my my way to say fuck everybody right and uh you know just went too far but uh like i said you know when it is expressed in the cage that's more of a long-term uh thing growing up an angry person and then um you know i always give a lot of credit to uh jamie joss the hate breed you know that's who i'll walk out to nowadays it's a dream come true to have a walkout song by them. And that was like the first time that I was able to find a positive outlet for that energy. You know, I didn't know what heavy metal was growing up.

You know what I mean? I grew up in a small farm town. And I didn't know what that was. But heavy metal gave me an outlet and haybreed was the first one that gave me a positive outlet before it was it was negative pantera slayer like stuff like this it's all negativity you know so this rage is is coming out in a negative sense and gets expressed through drugs alcohol alcohol, hanging with the wrong people, things like that. And then there's a turning point where I'm like, man, this can be a positive thing. And I can use this energy directed towards something positive. What were you angry about growing up?

Good question. Man, that goes deep, man, because, you know, I grew up in a very, very, very small town, 200 people population. I didn't see, uh, a skyscraper until I was, I mean, like up in person, like we drove by it in Dayton, Ohio, which is in a big town in itself. Um, until I was like over 18 years old, you know, so I was, I always felt like there was so much more out there for me and I was kind of I grew up in a machine shop my dad was a machinist so I was doing that from like five years old I was sweeping the fucking floor and I was like I was like man this is not

what I'm meant to be like I'm supposed to be something great but uh but everybody around me is I know this is what you do you live in this little town and you do you follow the rules you're gonna be a machinist or a farmer or you know whatever and uh you know that shit pissed me off you know and I never really found my niche and so I was homeschooled actually for I think two years in uh junior high so I think that was sort of actually the start because I went back to school. And when I went back to school, I was now the outsider. I didn't have any friends.

And then going up, all of a sudden I'm in high school and I have no friends. I can't get laid for shit. I think that's what causes anger in a lot of people in the world, right? Oh, yeah. And depression. Yeah, yeah. That's a big factor.

Yeah. And at the exact same time, I'm starting to experiment with drugs and alcohol. So you put the two together, you know, I was supposed to be the prodigal son, you know what I mean? Like I was very intelligent. I was, um you know like I was doing things by the time I was 15 years old in the machine shop that that guys you know they've been working for my father for 10-15 years couldn't do you know I mean so I was sort of this prodigal son I was good at athletics and everything had no problem with all that stuff. So I think it was just sort of a backlash, you know, and then I let that anger get the best of me. So now when you were doing drugs and alcohol, what were the drugs? Like what was the drug that caused you to overdose?

Heroin. An injection, yeah. Damn, that's deep. When you're injecting it, that's when you're all in, baby. Yeah, and, you know, I didn't actually do it a whole lot. It's kind of the funny thing. A lot of people thought that I was addicted to heroin, and I wasn't. I think that was probably the fifth time that I did it, maybe six, something like that.

I didn't count, but that was sort of my step into the dark side. And a blessing and a curse, man know it immediately i was like oh okay that's what can happen right it's the step back uh and you know i was very naive very uh man i was a fool really like because what i did i remember leaving uh uh the hospital i I was like, okay, well, I'm never doing heroin again, but let's go do some coke. Right? So I was just a dummy, man. How old were you?

I think I was 21, 22, one of those. I mean, that was like 15 years ago. There's a lot of stuff. I was actually kind of thinking about, like, so again, you know, on this podcast, I was like, I was like, you know, this is probably going to come up on it. It's a pretty intense story. I was like, damn, I can't remember all the details of that shit. It was like a long time ago. But anyway, yeah, so I was like 21, 22. And it wasn't too much long later. You know,

I live with this girl and you know she was a drug addict too and she had a couple kids and it was like I was like all right well now I got a place to live let's get fucked up hmm you know and it is I never did heroin again after that obviously I think I did oxys though Percocet stuff I got which is basically the same thing, obviously. I think I did Oxy's, though. Percocet, stuff like that. Oxy's is basically the same thing, right? Yeah, which I mean, I didn't realize it at the time.

But really, my drug of choice was meth back in that day. That was what I really liked. That was actually what I was addicted to at one point. And I ended up going to jail. And that was what got me out of addiction I didn't realize I was addicted until I was in jail so what made you realize it when you were in jail I just you know just couldn't stop thinking about it and just wanting it and just I mean I didn't get have like like um like cold sweats or anything I don't think that happens with uppers but um i mean i was just

you know like like i couldn't stop thinking about it man i was like dude like just a lot of that anger was coming out i was just like god like what the fuck like i wanted to fight everybody i was like somebody give me something you know and wow yeah it was just a really terrible experience but probably only lasted three, four days. Not even, maybe not even that. And then you came out of it. Yeah, I mean, I was just like able to accept my fate and deal with it. What does it feel like to be on meth?

You ever take Adderall? No. You've never taken Adderall? No. Pretty similar to Adderall, right? Yeah, it's like Adderall. I mean, that's the closest I would say um I mean you're high um but you don't have I mean it says euphoria more than anything just a excuse me just an extreme sense of euphoria just everything's, but then, man, as soon as you start to lose that a little bit,

you just itch for it so bad, man, so bad. Like you just want it again. You don't want to sleep. Your teeth will be grinding. You're just like, ugh. You're just tensing up all your muscles. God, I've got to get more of that, you know. Now, were you working out at all back then?

No. Nothing? Well, not working out like I should be. So, again, I was angry. A lot of times, like, I'd be at a party. This was a common thing. I'd be at, like, a party or just doing drugs, whatever, and I just started getting – look at everybody.

Like, I fucking don't like none of you. And I would just walk outside, and I would go for a run. I'd run five, six miles, come back, and be like, all right, give me another line or whatever. Wow. Yeah. You would run and then come back to the party? Yeah, yeah. And then sometimes I would fight people.

You know, that was common. Very, very common. If you call that working out. And we, like, this particular time in my life, I was living in a little town called Jamestown, Ohio. And I had this buddy. He was a friend. His cousin, well, his cousin was a fighter. And this was kind of my first foray into mixed martial arts.

Our first experience watching it and everything. And they would train in the grass in the backyard. You know, I remember watching Ken Shamrock DVDs, or VHSs back then, leg locks. We'd go on the living room floor, like, just be shit-faced drunk. And I'm lucky I didn't tear him ACL or anything. We're like, oh, this is what he's doing. This is how you do it.

Heel hooks. Yeah, heel hooks. And, I mean, I don't remember all the techniques but i remember it was like you know pancreation stuff right and we'd just be laying there and it was always a thought of like like dude this is fucking awesome man like i could beat tank abbott like you know and we would joke about it man we would say i remember specifically sitting there like I dude like you know we're gonna get you a fight in you know the local Joe Schmoe show and then you know we're gonna get you up and you're gonna go to a pride and then you're gonna go to the UFC I was like oh cool

hell yeah let's do it and that was you know it was like a joke kind of but like that was what was in my head that's so that's what we were going to do. So that was your first introduction to martial arts. Yeah. So what was your first real formal training? What gym did you first? So I fought before I trained. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah, so actually this guy, he was supposed to go fight Wes Sims,

and his name was Fat Joe is what we called him. He was supposed to go fight Wes Sims that day. And I said, yeah, let's go, man. I want to go with you. I want to see this shit up close, right? So we go there, and I'm doing a bunch of coke on the way. And to me, it's just going to be a party. I'm just going to watch my dude fight.

I get there, and he signs up on the way and you know to me it's just gonna be a party like i'm just gonna watch my dude fight i get there and uh you know there's a he signs up on the table and i was like i do what is that how you know that's all you got to do he's like yeah he's like you just paid 30 bucks and you come fight i said man maybe i should do that and then the guy and i'm looking inside and i see the uh you know people sitting around smoking cigars. It's like you see on a movie. People smoking cigars. You see bets being made and stuff. The guy goes, man, you want to fight the champion? Nobody wants to fight him. I was like, fuck yeah, man.

I'll fight him. Are you kidding me? I literally went across the street. There's a sporting goods store across the street or down the street or something. Went and bought a mouthpiece. Come back. There's a restaurant across the street. Boiled the mouthpiece at the restaurant use their microwave come back and then uh and then we're at the fighters meeting so the fighters meeting back then was a lot different

so there wasn't way in it was like you and you you guys look about the same size uh you guys doing kickboxing okay you guys fight right so that's how the way it worked out and i'm sitting there and they're like okay you're the champion you're fighting him And I was like, oh shit. All right, fuck this motherfucker. Right and You know, so I'm sitting there station this guy. He taught me how to do a jab He's like man. He's like all you do to beat this guy just jab him. He's like you see this just throw this jab I was like, oh, okay. I'm gonna do that and Went out there and I beat the guy so he actually quit. Yeah, he actually quit.

So he was a tough man champion is what he was. And I actually threw a jab, punched him in the face, and he went to shoot on me. I did a playground guillotine choke, and he just quit. I don't think I actually had the choke in. I highly doubt. Did he tap? He tapped out saying that his calf cramped up.

I have no idea you know like what really happened i mean i i certainly didn't know a guillotine choke i didn't know the name of it so uh anyway later that night i was like dude like your fight didn't go very long you'll fight again yeah whatever man and i said well this guy you know he's going pro in his next boxing match. You're a kickboxer. Let's fight him. I said, all right, I'll fuck him up, right? I'll go do it.

This dude beat the shit out of him. So that was actually the first. The nice thing about that was it actually made me realize how tough I am. That was the saving grace. I mean, he just pieced me up, just one punch after another. I'm just eating punch after punch. And then, yeah, that i said man i gotta do this shit and then so my second fight uh you know i didn't think i still yet needed to train uh my second fight i met a guy at a gym so you know i did go to this gym as a japanese jiu-jitsu gym and he goes and he goes hey man you want to fight in like two weeks in muay thai hell yeah right um so for two weeks you know i'd hit the bag probably

for five minutes at a time whatever or something um i go to the fight and uh man this is the worst part so i get in there first thing the guy does comes in shoots on me takes me down we're in big gloves uh shin pads and all this takes me down i'll get up look at the record what the fuck he's taking me down we can't do this muay thai right uh he's like fight you know comes it takes me down again i was like what the fuck man so i was like okay so we're fucking wrestling right so i come out and get in sort of a wrestling stance, drop my hands, fucking kicks me in my head. So we'll come find out later, it's San Chow.

Not Muay Thai, Scott Sheely's show. I used to work with him a lot. San Chow, for people who don't know, was kickboxing with takedowns. I cornered Maurice Smith back in the day when Maurice was doing that once. Ah, okay. Yeah, in Burbank, I think it was. It was weird. It was confusing. It's like, okay, I mean, it's interesting, I guess.

I mean, it's probably a good skill set to learn, learn how to do takedowns and throws with kickboxing, but then you just let the guy up, which is just weird. You didn't get it, huh? It was weird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it still goes on.

They send us. Yeah. I think it's an amazing sport. weird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it still goes on. They're Sanda, essentially. Yeah. I think it's an amazing sport. I love it. It's amazing. Kung Lee. A lot of times it's a lot like throws in Muay Thai because there's a lot of trips and throws in Muay Thai.

It's interesting. Except you get points for the throws. Yeah. Yeah, up to five. Yeah. Another variation. Yeah. Yeah.

I think if their feet go above above their head it's five points so when did you get serious so you did this it was right after that because because i mean he beat the shit out of me um i like i remember walking out of there and people were looking at me like damn how'd you survive that bro i mean and like people were actually asking me like dude how did you survive that shit like i don't know i had to and i had to go to work that night i was like working third shift i had to go to work right after everybody was looking at me at work i did you got like two black eyes like if anyway um that was when i i uh said to myself you know i want to try this and you know i think uh you know this is a something i really enjoy and i want to

go for it um so I met this guy. His name was Eli Ayers, and he was fighting in King of the Cage, one of the toughest guys I ever met, and then a guy, Braden Workman. And they were training for – it was a big show there in Columbus. I can't remember the name of the show, but I think, like, Lawler fought on it, like a bunch of militant guys, Tim Sylvia. You'd know the name if I I said, I can't remember, but anyway, um, yeah. And then, you know, then I really got this shit kicked out on me

when I got in the gym, you know, then I realized like, you know, what a real beating was. And, uh, yeah, it just went from there, man. Cause I, I just said, I never looked back and I thought, man, you know, I want to change my life. You know, I'm, you know, I wasn't never actually a, uh, the type of person that fit in with the drug user scene, right? Like that wasn't me. It was just a, again, expression of anger and these things that, um, you know, in my childhood just kind of, you know, came out the wrong way. Right.

So it wasn't really, uh, like I fit in there. Right. So at this point, like I'm, I'm really not fitting in anywhere. And this was a, a quote that I remember where I said, I stopped trying to find yourself and start to define yourself. And I felt like the whole time I was trying to find myself and I said, you know, I'm a, I'm a define who the fuck I am. I'm going to say, this is what I am. This is what I do. I'm a fighter. Fuck it. Let's go. It's do or die. Um, I've been in jail, been dead. I've been, you know, uh, I've slept in, on, in the fucking snow. You know what I mean? Like I've been homeless. I've done every low thing you can do. Like what's the worst that could happen? I get knocked out. There so you know I decided you know this is my path and I'm gonna carve the path I'm not gonna search for a path I'm gonna make the path and I'm not gonna look back and I'm going to the top of that

mountain and uh and that's something I still talk about today when I talk to people is about I didn't have any idea how I was gonna do it but I knew why I was gonna do it and I knew that I was gonna do it and I think in my own personal struggles and I think in a lot of people's struggles they kind of get caught up in the how you know how am I gonna do this how am I gonna win this fight whatever and I think when you know and understand your why I think the how becomes a lot more clear clear yeah more clear and easier I mean it doesn't matter anymore. You could do,

it's better to do it a hundred percent wrong than 50% right. I think there's a balance to doing things and it's highlighted by what you just said, what you just said. There's a balance and it's a lot of what we were talking about earlier about, uh, Joel Jameson versus Louie Simmons versus, uh, like someone who's like super technical versus someone who's just a fucking mad dog and just wants you to just go out and do it and don't be a pussy.

Your, your mindset that allowed you to take that fight with no training and then take another fight after that with no training and then take another fight after that with no tech, just this mindset of fuck it, let's just do this. That there's a balance between that and then you realizing okay i gotta really learn how to do this if i'm gonna really be a fighter i'm gonna really be a really define myself and i'll really go out and make a mark i gotta learn what the fuck i'm doing exactly there's both things there but that's that balance like you need both things you know i mean this it's you have to have a certain amount of fuck it in you you know you have to have a certain amount for a sport i mean

is it called an mma a sport it always seemed to me to be it's too it's too defining it's or too uh it's it's too limited it's not fighting is more than a sport it's an expression of what you're capable of absolutely it's your you who you are as a human and that's where uh one distinction i've made over the years is the difference between martial skills and martial arts everything everybody always calls everything encompasses it into a martial art and when we go to the gym and we're training arm bars, do 100 arm bars, that's not an art. That's not your expression of your body in a combat scenario. That's a martial skill.

Now when we go in competition, now we're expressing our art. And I think this is an important distinction to be made. I think it's something that I get so tired of hearing. I train martial arts and I train martial skills and important distinction to be made. I think it's something that I get so tired of hearing. I train martial arts, and I train martial skills, and then I express my art. That's a very interesting way of putting it. How many years after you initially started seriously training were you on the Ultimate Fighter? Four or five. I remember when you were on the Ultimate Fighter and they stole your chew.

Somebody fucked with your chew. That's what everybody remembers, yeah. Well, I remember that because I remember, like, there's some dudes that, there's some guys that play tough guy. There's some guys that put on a show and puff up their chest and say some shit that they might not necessarily mean. And then there's some guys that say some shit and you go, uh-oh, this dude's fucking serious. And I remember when they fucked with your chew, I remember watching that, I'd go, this motherfucker's serious. I'm like, Matt Brown's not a joker.

And then when you fought Matt Arroyo, that was another example of it. I'm like, skill-wise, Matt Arroyo's a very talented guy, and still is. Good jiu-jitsu guy, good fighter. But there was something, that was a battle of minds. I agree. Your mind. And I don't know if you knew that I fought him before that too. Yeah, I did.

But the first time I fought, and this is why it was such a no-brainer to say the fight, I fought him the first time on 24 hours notice. So I wasn't even, I wasn't training her. I was training a girl and she was going to Florida to fight and when I got there we're driving to the weigh-ins and the promoter I heard him talking on the phone and he goes and I heard him say you know oh we don't have an opponent for him so I said hey you know what do you need an opponent for and he's like well this guy Matt Arroyo you know 170 and I. And I said, dude, I'll fight.

Like, how much will you pay me? And they're like, yeah, 400, 500 bucks. I was like, dude, I'll pay my rent. Fuck yeah, I'll do it. And, yeah, so, and I said, you know, I can't make weight because I got, like, one hour. And, you know, he said, it's cool. And fought him on 25 hours notice and beat him. So he wanted redemption for that.

Yeah. That fight was – one of the things about watching you fight is someone has seen a lot of people fight. There's moments in exchanges where after the exchange a guy will try to take a break or a guy will try to catch his breath or move at pace. The obligatory break is what I call it. Yeah, there's little breaks. And then there's guys who recognize those breaks and push in. And you're a guy who pushes in.

Absolutely. When there's a break, you're like, oh, no, motherfucker. There's no breaks here. There's no breaks here. And you just get on dudes. And it makes things very intense. Yeah. That's the thing about all your fights.

They're very intense. There's a certain level of violence that you bring into the octagon that someone has to be prepared for. And there's some guys that are prepared for it and makes for amazing fights, like your fight with Robbie Lawler. Holy shit, was that a crazy fight. And then there's guys who just can't keep the pace. They just can't keep that keeping you off of them.

Yeah, and I think my goal as a martial artist as a fighter martial uh you know whatever you call combat guy you know i get my skills up to the point where it matches your mind where it matches the mind yeah and crazy yeah i mean a lot of guys struggle the other way yeah and i think one of the the things that um i talk about a lot of guys struggle the other way. And I think one of the things that I talk about a lot that, you see, I don't think that I was necessarily born this way. This is where I think a lot of people get confused. I mean, I was certainly born with an inclination towards fighting. I wouldn't be where I'm at without that. But, you know, I work a lot on my mind

I do a lot of stuff I've always been obsessed with martial arts and combat as a whole and I hear other people say they're obsessed like Connor made it really famous when he started saying it I think my obsession goes far far

beyond what anybody's even close to. I don't think their definition of obsession even is comparable to mine at all. I mean, I'm far more obsessed. I've read probably, I got a library of sports psychology books, of strength and conditioning books, of martial arts books, all that stuff. I mean, it's literally on my mind 24 hours a day but

one of the things i really focus on is the the sports psychology part and i think that is why it's expressed that way in the fight um and you hear a lot of people they'll say you hear how have you heard like man you know my mind's already strong like i ain't scared when i walk in there or stupid shit like that. I always say, do you think Michael Jordan stopped practicing layups? Do you think Jordan Burroughs stopped practicing double legs? Do you think that Arnold Schwarzenegger stopped doing bicep curls? Because it's good doesn't mean that you stop. It can't be improved upon.

Yeah, it can be improved upon and you don't stop. I think the mind is one of those things that can always be better. Like we're not tapping into, I mean, what are we tapping? Like 10% of our brains? That's all bullshit. Yeah, that's bullshit. Yeah, they used to think that. They used to think that.

That's something they say, but the reality is your brain has a bunch of different quadrants for all sorts of different functions. So when you're utilizing a certain portion of your brain has a bunch of different quadrants for all sorts of different functions. So when you're utilizing a certain portion of your brain, that's the portion of your brain that's responsible for those actions. Okay. Either way, our minds are certainly far more unlimited and far more potential than we're tapping into.

Well, I think your mind is a lot like your body and it performs and it does what you ask of it. And if you just are a lazy bitch who doesn't do anything but sit around and watch tv and you don't ever challenge your mind i think your mind is weak and it atrophies absolutely yeah now when you say that you you have all these books and you say that you work on your mind like do you have a daily practice that you do do you meditate like i meditate um you know daily is sort of a uh i hate saying i do it daily because you know i skip days and and i mean i have three kids which you know how that

goes and yeah it's very um but at the same time i try to use everything as an opportunity to practice on my mind too right um um how you do anything is how you do everything right right um and so i think you know we can use opportunities all the time and but yes i do meditate i do tons of visualization i have uh um my strength conditioning coach i work with now he's he's also got a degree in sports psychology. So we integrate a lot of that in the training itself. For instance, like doing, we do these 200-yard sprints on the forced treadmill that are just miserable. I mean, by the time you're done, you just don't have anything left. It's a complete drain.

And then as soon as you're done, like you have to stand like a military attention, straight up and down, and not let the concept of your body shutting down affect your ability to maintain a posture. And that's just a mental thing, 100%, right? It's solely mental. That's just one example. We do a million things like that. But, yeah, I do tons and tons of visualization, which is a consistent marker of high performers, a consistent thing that high performers do.

I think this is well known. I have a mental coach specifically that kind of holds me accountable for a lot of the things. You know, me and him, we talk a lot back and forth about the different ways to create habits. I think that's probably the number one thing is creating habits, right? But he holds me accountable for everything, and I think that's probably the biggest key is just being held accountable for every action that you do. Have you ever used a sensory deprivation tank?

Absolutely. My strength coach has one. Beautiful. Yeah, I love it. And I go in about 45 to an hour. Do you work on shit in there? Do you think about techniques? You know, I don't really. I use that as a time. So I've tried to practice this form of meditation that I, you know, I can't remember the name of it. This dude, Kishnamaru. You ever heard of him krishnamaru i i don't know why it's not coming to my head right now but he was one of bruce lee's guys he's an indian uh meditation guy and everything and um his form of meditation was to completely clear

your mind which is i guess like it is actually impossible right like there's no way to just have no thought at all but that's sort of what i try to strive for is go literally no mind at all what i do is think about only my breath that's it i concentrate on my breathing in and breathing out and there's a bunch of other shit that gets in there but eventually i can kind of overpower it and just think only about breathing in and that's what so that So that's what I do to get to that state, right? To get to a state where I can release everything. But at that point, once I'm relaxed, then I go for the no mind, which again, it's impossible. But my personal system of visualization or relaxation is I see the thoughts as clouds and my mind is a sky or space.

So my mind becomes this gigantic entity and the thoughts are just clouds that pass by. But again, when I start thinking about things like that, now you're not in the no mind. If you start thinking about your breath, you're not in the no mind. And I want to get as close to that as possible because in a fight, in a combat situation, I want no mind. Right. And I want to get as close to that as possible because in a fight, in a combat situation, I want no mind. Right. That's the way that Musashi talks about. Right.

Yeah. And that's... That's Musashi right there. Oh, fuck yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Book of five rings, man. This was a play on Musashi.

Beautiful. Yeah. Have you read the book, Musashi? Yeah. Yeah, I read that. You put it on your Instagram the other day. I just put it up the other day, yeah. I read that and I read the book of five rings when I was 16.

Changed my life. Nice, nice. That's the one that Louis will, if you work for Louis, all of his staff, you're forced to read it. Louis Simmons, beautiful. Yeah, Louis Simmons. You have to read it. Dude, once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things. I remember reading that when I was 16, and I was like, oh, I get it.

I was like, when you can get great at something, you can get great at anything. It's the same thing, whether it's playing the piano or writing books or fighting or anything. It's the same thing. It's all about figuring it out, understanding the way. And that's the book, The Art of Learning. Have you read this one? No. Josh Waitzkin, you know his?

Oh, yeah, The Chess Prodigy. It's a black belt under Marcelo Garcia. Yeah, yeah. A beautiful, amazing book that's sort of a similar type thing. He's a fucking wizard, man. I've heard him on Tim Ferriss' podcast. Super smart guy. That's where I heard of him from, yeah.

Yeah, genius. And just so good at understanding how to learn things and teach things. I think that mentality, that chess player mentality, because chess is such a complex, cognitive, demanding game. There's so much thinking and planning and so many steps ahead that you have to be and so many moves that you have to have cataloged in your head. And he goes into beyond just the technical part, too, when he talks about how he kind of lost his love for it.

Yeah. It was a great book, man. Yeah. He's a really fascinating character. And I love when a guy like that gets obsessed with martial arts because it changes the way people look at something like jiu-jitsu. Because people on the outside in particular, they look at jiu-jitsu, it's like, oh, it's just a bunch of fucking meatheads choking each other. And then they see a guy like that and they go, oh, wait a minute, Josh Waitzkin is in jiu-jitsu?

He's a black belt? Huh. Man, that's got to be one of the great things about jiu-jitsu is the amazing people that do it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you come out here to L.A. I mean, I see these people doing jiu-jitsu. I talk to them. They're like, hey, what do you do?

I'm a movie top guy or whatever. I'm executive. I'm a CEO. I'm like, wait, what? What are you doing in here? Guy Ritchie. Guy Ritchie's a fucking black belt. He was on the podcast.

I was like, what? You're a black belt under Henzo? I was like, holy shit. Nice. Yeah, that's legit, man. That's badass. Goddamn black belt under Henzo Gracie. They don't, holy shit. Nice. Yeah, that's legit, man. That's badass, man. Goddamn black belt under Henzo Gracie. They don't give those away.

Maynard James Keenan. Yep, yep. Oh, he's a buddy of mine. Yeah. I mean, I know him a little bit. He's legit as fuck. That dude does jujitsu and he's got a fake hip. I didn't know that.

He's got a hip replacement from stomping on stage. You know how he's always stomping on stage? Didn't he choke someone out on stage? Yeah, he hip tossed some dude took his back and got him in a rear naked choke on stage and kept singing and the dude was going like he wasn't hurting the guy you know the guy was a fan it was the whole thing was kind of crazy like most it on YouTube or anything yeah I gotta see this find it the guy comes up to the guy runs up to him on stage Maynard has the fucking microphone in

his hands Maynard's the fucking microphone in his hands. Maynard's another dude. He's one of the smartest dudes I know. So smart. Stupid smart. To the point where he gets weird around people because he's so goddamn smart. Everybody else is like a baby. So here he's on stage. You got a big screen.

And some dude jumps onto the stage and rushes him. Where is it it at Jamie? how long is this video? gotta get to when the dude runs on stage get it go before that cause he hip tossed him first and he's like singing this whole time the guy runs up to him he's like yeah

Maynard hugs him boom takes his back sinks it choking and he keeps singing and then he goes over onto his back, sings a joke in, and he keeps singing. And then he goes over onto his back and pulls the guy backwards and then keeps singing while he's in full back mount with the hook. And the dude's got his arms up like, yes! Dude, that is beautiful.

Yeah, and he kept singing the song. I mean, it's fucking hilarious. Man, he's a god, man. Yeah, he's a bad motherfucker. The god among men. And he's always training. He, he's a god, man. Yeah, he's a bad motherfucker. And he's always training. He comes out here, he trains down to Henry Aiken's place, and he trains with Dave Camarillo, Half Gracie, he goes everywhere. Yeah, I'm training with him a little bit out there. We were drilling a couple weeks ago over at Henry's,

and then at Broadman Muscle Farm we did some training there. Most people, they get their fucking hip replaced. They're like, that's a wrap. Right. And he's like, I gotta get my black belt yeah wow dude mark coleman had his hip replaced and he ain't even training yeah they talk about both of them right i think he may have had both of them the one when uh what do they call it had a problem yeah it got infected yeah it got infected had to get redone redone man imagine that shit they cut off the top of your leg they put a fake hip in there. They put a bolt that goes through the center of the bone, all the way down through the bone.

Imagine having to redo that. They got to pull it out, put a new one in there. Fuck, man. Imagine just doing it once. I've only had one surgery in my life. I've only went under twice now. What did you have done? Actually, so twice.

The first one, I had tore the ligament right here oh i remember that yeah like you were you were talking about that that was fucking with you for a long time right yeah probably about a year i fought like that but you couldn't totally make a fist right yeah it was like this kind of so i was like frogging people ian mccall still like that ian mccall's broke his hand so much that his right hand, one of his knuckles, like his pinky or his pointer finger, it never curls past that. Yeah, well, this wasn't broken. The bones were all intact.

But the ligament there was completely torn. So what did they have to do? They just went in. There's an incision there and just reattached the ligament. And I came back probably four months later five months later maybe that's when they were telling me you'll be fine and everything and you know it took probably a year before it was actually okay wow it's just chris weidman's going through some shit like that right now he fucked his thumb up in the kelvin gastelum fight and then had to get a

ligament from his wrist taken out and attached to his thumb because his thumb ligament was torn. And he still can't fully train, still can't grip or fully punch. Yeah, he's waiting. Yeah, mine they didn't have to do none of that. But they said once they opened it up, there was a lot more stuff in there they had to take out and a lot more that was ripped that they didn't even realize was there. You know how it is with the mris yeah well with fighters like so many guys have shit wrong

they don't even know like did you ever see jacquez when they had his uh elbows cleaned out he uh he had elbow surgery and they found chunks of bone and cartilage in his elbow like a like like a shot glass filled with like shit that was floating around inside of his elbow just from hitting people with elbows and getting armbarred and not tapping and shit popping and snapping and tearing loose and all of it is just fucking mangled yeah because he broke his arm when he's hodger hodger yeah hodger his arm and he tucked it into his belt and kept going. This badass. Yeah. I mean, that was a horrible arm break, too.

Like, to me, wrestling is the hardest sport in the world. And I love wrestling. I love watching it. I love being a part of it. Yeah. But that doesn't happen in wrestling. Right. Very often.

I mean, I guess there's probably some. I know Mike Buscello went to the finals with a torn pec wow yeah so one takes a lot takes a lot i guess it does happen wrestling i shouldn't say that yeah that's a difference that situation was just he was up on points and he just needed to survive for a couple minutes right yep yeah won the match well you remember when john j Jon Jones fought Vitor? Vitor completely hyperextended his arm. Did it break? I don't know if it broke, but it was fucked up for a long time. I mean, it was bent like this the other way.

Just completely bent backwards. Like, I was convinced he was going to tap. I was like, he's got to tap. I thought it was, too. And Vitor, like, let it go a little. Yeah. It looked like he let it go. It was weird.

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Like, think if he finishes that. Crazy. The world changes. Yeah, the whole world of light heavyweight changes. Vitor's life changes. Yeah, everything changes.

Vitor becomes a champ. Yeah. The whole thing changes. Jon Jones, not the greatest ever. Yeah. Which, you know, is up in the air or whatever but I think he's the greatest ever performance wise we were talking about performance wise earlier before the podcast started versus like we're talking about Cain Velasquez performance wise like the actual results

versus what you think about their ability you know I think Cain when he was at the time I never saw anybody like like Kane when he was in his prime. 240 pounds, un-fucking-godly cardio. We just never stopped coming at you. Excellent striking technique. Could take a tremendous shot. My whole thing with it, though, is as soon as you test positive once, I take you out of the greatest, period. It's just against the rules.

I'm not even against steroids. Take steroids. If your endocrinologist tells you to take steroids go fucking do it good good for you but in our sport unfortunately it's against the rules so there's only a certain amount of people doing it so if you're doing it you're cheating right and but do you think John was taking steroids I don't know I don't but I don't think he was but to be honest, it doesn't matter to me. I mean, you know, I've said this for a long time. I think it should be a lifetime ban.

First offense. Period. Yeah. And there's going to be martyrs. There would be guys like, I don't think Tim Means was taking steroids. He wasn't. He certainly did not look like it. They proved it.

They proved that he wasn't. Oh, really? I didn't know it went that far. Okay. They found the supplement that he was taking that was a totally legal supplement. You get a bunch of shit from these small companies, or these companies, rather, that get it from China. And they have these bins. And we had a problem with that with the alpha brain when we first started.

Not steroids, but vitamins that were in alpha brain that weren't supposed to be in there. That weren't supposed to be there. We have all our stuff independently tested. And when we had it independently tested tested it turned out that the mixers that when they were putting all the different ingredients in they would be putting in these vats and they had used these vats for other shit and had it completely cleaned it out this is a problem with companies that sell steroids and also sell things like creatine like this is the this is the big story about john jones this is the rumor. This is what they think is that he was doing coke that had creatine in it.

Yeah, I heard this. It was cut with creatine, and that creatine probably had trace elements of steroids. The reason why that makes sense is because he tested negative right before that test, and then tested positive, and then tested negative again a short time after that. This is a steroid that takes several months to get out of your system, but it got out of his system very quickly, which would indicate it was a very, very small trace amount, not an amount that you would take if you were actually using it to try to, you know, to get a performance enhancing benefit. That's what I, I believe it. It makes sense to me. And so it makes sense to Novitsky too. It's fair enough. And certainly there's cases. So in my world where, okay, first offense, lifetime ban, I think a lot of guys would be a lot more careful with things like that, for one.

And I think there would be a due process. So say he proved that, or like Tim Means proved it, he comes right back. like Tim Means, you know, proved that, you know, he comes right back, right? And I also think, unfortunately, there would be people that would probably have no bad intention and would have the, you know, end up testing positive and having a lifetime ban. And there would be martyrs, basically. I can't sign off on martyrs, man. Too many dudes have dreams, you know? For sure, for sure.

What about you? What if you accidentally took some creatine and had some bullshit in it? Personally, I'm extremely diligent. I do my due diligence, man. I work with MusclePharm for years now. And they have great stuff. Yeah, they have great stuff. I know that it's good stuff.

That's my primary supplement source. I mean, I don't do coke. You know what I mean great stuff. I know that it's good stuff. That's my primary supplement source. I mean, I don't do Coke. You know what I mean? Right. If you do those things and something bad happens to you, that's your fault. You know what I mean? If, for instance, he was doing Coke, and not a knock on Jon Jones either. I mean, I'm not living his life.

I mean, he's in a difficult situation as a young kid. God, I mean, I can only imagine the amount of people approaching him for crazy things and trying to talk him into all these things. So I have some sympathy for his situation. But you make the choice. You have to pay the consequences for the choice. I agree that you should pay the consequences for the choice. I just don't agree that the price should be so high.

When you think about a guy like Anderson Silva, like Anderson Silva just tested positive again, do you think that that takes him out of the consideration for the greatest of all time? In my mind, 100%. See, I feel like he's doing it because he's old. I feel like he's doing it because he's 40. So again, we can feel whatever we want to feel, right? I feel like he probably wasn it because he's 40. so we again we can feel whatever we want to feel

right i mean i feel like he probably wasn't doing it the whole time but he might have been yeah but do i know hell no i don't know you ever see his trainer oh yeah yeah he trained eric silva when i fought him and you know his trainer looks ridiculous he's set like 70 years old he's like 70 years old. He's just fucking jacked. He just looks like the Hulk. He's got like 5% body fat at 60 years old. He's so big. Like I sent a picture of the guy to Dana, and I go, this is Anderson's trainer, LOL. And Dana sends me back, holy shit, are you serious? I go, yeah, that's his trainer.

The fucking guy is so jacked. Dana's certainly seen him around the UFC. He's traded lots of guys. That's a different guy, man. Unless he's younger. No, no. The guy above it with the white shirt. That guy. No, no, no.

That guy right there. Yeah, that's him. The picture to the left is even more. Yeah, to the left is the one. Yeah, that's the picture I sent Dana. He's so jacked. I mean, his fucking abs stick out like like biceps each one of his abs looks like a bodybuilder's bicep just glued to his stomach that's great listen folks there's like you can

get big at 60 you could be pretty built at 60 you can't be that built it's not possible it's like 0.01 percent of the population that can do that. They all live in Africa. They all have super genes. They're all like Francis Ngannou's relatives. There's so few people that are built like that naturally. That's good, man. Not at that age.

At that age, your body starts to diminish. There's just no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Do you know that he's that old for sure? Yeah, that guy's old. Yeah, he's in his 60s. That's funny. I think he's at X Gym, right? I don't know.

I know he trained Eric Silva who was at X Gym. He was in his corner. I was like, I'm glad I'm fighting a little guy, not him. Yeah, Eric Silva changed, boy. You want to talk about a post-Usada guy. Yeah. He's one of him and Vitor. but Vitor obviously was a testosterone replacement therapy. Him and, I think Johnny Hendricks was probably the most obvious, right?

Performance-wise, for sure. You got to wonder about Hendricks, like how much of it was burnout, how much of it was possibly he was taking something. You got to say it, possibly, because he never tested positive for anything. Absolutely, yeah. But, dude, he was launching people across i was the last fight before usada when i fought him you know i felt his strength i seen his body i mean yeah i felt it firsthand this is a completely different world yeah yeah well especially completely different compared to now he doesn't look the same yeah he doesn't fight the same. It's like... Certainly part of that has to be motivation too.

I mean, he's just... There's no way he's under the same mental aspiration that he had before. He just looks at it differently. Could be also because his hormones are all fucked up. If... This is a big speculation. If he was on something and then he's off, his hormones crash. There's no way they can't

that's just how it works and that affects your mind right a hundred percent i mean i've never take it but i mean i see people that go on and off of it and they're like depressed and yeah look at vitor remember when vitor came back i mean there's so many pictures of vitor when he fought like michael bisping and then you see vitor after usada, and he's got that old man bod, and he goes in there, and his body's kind of like loose, and your body's not producing hormones anymore. Vitor was on that shit when he was 19, man. Oh, was he?

Well, yeah, I guess, yeah. When we fought Randy, and he was 240 pounds, and his neck started up here. His neck started about two inches above his ears and just went down straight to his shoulder. Fucking. He's so fast. Ridiculously fast.

Yeah. Especially when he fought Tank. When he was about 205, he was ridiculously fast. Yeah, because I wonder if there's any, I was going to say, like if you slow down when you stop taking that stuff, like if your muscles actually, you know, your fast twitch muscles go away or something like that. Oh, your whole body crashes.

Right. When you're that jacked up on steroids, your whole body, first of all, your balls are just like on vacation. I mean, I know you get stronger, but what about, you know, speed though? That's a different thing. A lot of speed is from a neurological, right?

It's a lot of, you from a neurological right it's a lot of uh you know the nervous system so i wonder you know about the effects on how did you see the study uh andy galpin just came out with which he just posted the other day about uh epigenetic memory of muscles yes so this is i think a big problem with the steroids because i say i do steroids when i'm 19 now my muscles get jacked and now my muscles remember how to get that jacked again. Even though I'm off steroids for 10 years, and then I come back at 30 and redo it. That's a very good point. That's a very good point and a very real point.

Yeah, your body has muscle memory. And especially if you do it when you're young and then your body has an adequate amount of time to rebuild and you start developing a natural hormone level that also increases your tendon strength it increases increases ligament strength i mean it just your body changes it changes the density of your muscles of your bones it just does there's a lot of bet i mean and then there's another argument for women women that have taken steroids it's an even more intense argument because you're putting supernatural levels of testosterone in a woman's body they develop all this new muscle tissue that never would have been there without it and a certain amount of that sticks around and you know you might not even ever been able to develop that kind of strength without it yeah yeah yeah

that's what that was the first thing i thought of when I seen that study. Yeah. And that was where I was like, you know, there's always a lot more to it than meets the eye. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. And, you know, with the kind of cheating that they've been doing in Russia, you know, did you see that movie Icarus? No, no. It's on Netflix, right?

Yeah. I know what you're talking about. I want to see it. It's fucking crazy. I just watch so little TV. I just miss everything. Yeah. Every day day someone did you see this on netflix nah playing on it it's on my queue it'll make you it'll make you it'll make you curious and mad at the same time because they had a state-sponsored state-sponsored doping program russia had oh yeah

i think it's pretty well known right i mean yeah but this was proven okay so the guy who was doing it the guy who was doing it, the guy who was doing it, was in this documentary, and he was helping this guy, Brian Fogle, do a bike race. What Brian Fogle did was he did a bike race with nothing, and then he wanted to get juiced up and see what the difference is with the next year, do the same race, but do it on everything. And so he contacted this Russian guy who is the head of anti-doping in Russia. Well, this guy, along the way from doping up Brian Fogle, they all got busted.

And when they got busted, not Brian Fogle, the Olympics in Russia, the Sochi Olympics, they found out that people had tampered with samples and a bunch of shit started coming out about it, and then it became this gigantic scandal. He fledussia came to the united states and testified and told everything that he did they opened up these supposedly unopenable sample jars and replaced the bad urine with clean urine they had frozen urine and then they had a hole in the wall where they're passing urine back and forth and replacing the old stuff with clean stuff. Was it specific to a specific sport?

No, every sport. Not all sports. Across the board. And they had a record number of gold medals that year. Everybody's juiced to the tits. And everybody's pissing clean. That's the tough thing about everybody goes into the Russian training methods and how they're superior and everything. A little bit of that, a little bit of this.

I mean, there's some great Russian training methods for sure. I mean, the Russians invented the kettlebells. Russians have super technical wrestling instruction. And there's some, without a doubt, some great Russian training methods. But it's also because sports means so much to them on a national level. They were also state-sponsored scientists rather than in America where it's, if you're a professor or something, you just do what you want to do for your athletes or whatever.

Well, we have to realize that their best athletes are all amateurs. Yeah. They don't have professional sports. Boxing. Yeah, but that's it. I mean, and they don't have, well, they have MMA too, Fedor, obviously, right? But they don't have NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, hockey. They don't have this professional venue like we do over here. So a lot of their greatest athletes go into amateur Olympics.

And so they're juicing these fucking people up for Soviet glory. They're doing it for the glory of the country. And it's sponsored by the state. And they in this documentary from putin all the way down people working for putin who this guy this gregory guy who was the guy who was in charge of all the state-sponsored doping it's fucking madness and it makes you wonder you know i mean nobody wants to say like fedor in pride was the motherfucker, right? I mean, he was the motherfucker. Loved it.

An animal. And it makes you wonder. It makes you wonder, like, what was going on over there? Loved it, man. Yeah. That was one of the best. I think Crow Cop Fedor. Woo!

Man, that was, like, for me, was probably, like, the most intense. I had to stay up for it. Yeah. And I just remember waiting, watching him walk out, just eyes fucking bulging out. Those are like at 3 o'clock in the morning, right? Yeah, I remember it was really late at night. I remember it was snowing and shit. Fuck.

Yeah, I don't know why I remember that, but, like, I'm not fucking going anywhere, man. I'm sitting here watching this, eyes bulging out just you know i didn't care man yeah fate or versus nogara it's so rare that fights are like that anymore i mean there's certainly some yeah i come up here and there but man those to me were the glory days man yeah because well we waited how long to see the fight yeah you know it's like three four months there's no fights in between. Right. You know, there's like one UFC fight or something,

and we're just like, dude, this is the fight. This is the Super Bowl that everybody's been waiting the whole season for. Do you think there's too many fights now? I don't know. I like it. I like that there's a lot of fights. Yeah. But I also think that some of them get overlooked.

Absolutely, absolutely. Like, I wish, there's a side of me that wishes it was the way it was back in the day, and there's a side of me that wishes it was the way it was back in the day and there's a side of me that's like I do this is what we all wanted from the beginning right you know we wanted fights every weekend but again unfortunately it does take away from that gigantic fight yeah you know those are harder to make these days I but I think that's why they're doing the champ versus champ thing they're trying to make those big fights again yeah I think so too but if you only have those fights every three or

four months there's no way you're going to have enough fights for all the athletes in the ufc absolutely yeah that's yeah big part of the issue is there's 500 fighters on roster plus i think there's more now actually the only thing i i i mean i'm not i'm no one to say how to do it but i kind of wish there was like uh you know, the UFC fight night and then the pay-per-view and, you know, they have all these different things, but they don't seem to, I mean, I think they may be moving towards it where there's sort of a, you know, the smaller fights work up, like you do like a UFC fight night three or four times, build an audience, now we put you on pay-per-view for the big fight.

You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Something like this, like not necessarily like a feeder, but within the organization, a feeder. Yeah, I know what you mean. More structured. I mean, I love the big events that they have every year, like the 4th of July event,

the New Year's event, the Madison Square Garden event, where they just stack it and just have just a ton of big-time fights. But I liked Eric Anders' Lyoto Machida last week, too, you know? I mean, I like that, too, where it's maybe a fight that not a lot of people are watching,

maybe less people are watching, but it's an interesting fight still. Yeah, I didn't get to watch it. I don't have cable anymore, so. You don't? Yeah, don't even have cable. We use Netflix. My wife does.

But do you have the UFC app? I do have the UFC app was it on there? yeah well it wasn't but it probably will be how long after it will be

how long do they wait before from Fox Sports 1 until it's on the UFC app? I don't even know I mean that's the thing I sit there and watch that if I'm watching anything

it's always fights on there or YouTube I just watch Muay Thai fights all day that's like my favorite thing to do yeah yeah did you see san chai's latest uh the question mark kick yeah dude where he got pulled up his shorts right after he did it too this guy man i love him wild man i love him san chai is so interesting to me because he's different than any other thai fighter in his. He's so light on his feet, constantly switching stances and he's just He's a Floyd Mayweather of Muay Thai. Yeah,

man. Yeah, that's a guy I'm going to try to get out here for, you know, like what I'm doing with MusclePharm is some things I could try to help them build a team and everything and he's one of the guys I want to get out for a seminar and kind of be, you know, affiliated with him. Please let me know. If you have, I want to meet that guy. Yeah, I really want to get him because it's not just the, you know affiliates let me know if you have i want to meet that guy yeah i really want to get

him because it's not just the you know the way that he fights in the ring but the way that he trains man yeah i mean he trains hard hard you know you watch these videos of me you're like dude and it's so easy for him that's the weird part part, right? He'll do like 30 kicks in a row. Yeah. Dude, how did you just do that and you're like smiling? Yeah. Well, he doesn't kick like – He's loose, man. Yeah. So loose.

He's not like a Liam Harrison guy that's like – Yeah. Every kick is fucking 150%. He's like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Pop, pop, pop. And he just keeps going. Just keeps going. Just keeps going. His eyes, man. I don't know if it's something you can even train. I mean, he's like the, I'd say more like the Lomachenko of Muay Thai, right? His eyes, man. He just sees. Like that question mark kick. I mean, he just knows.

There he is. Yeah. And you look at his body, man, and he ain't a scary, impressive guy. Like you look at Buakaw. Buakaw's jacked. You know, giant fucking ab muscles just ripped san chai just looks like a guy works out a little bit but meanwhile he just fucked people up man and he's so slick with his movement like even when he's hitting the pads who hits pads like this

where he's never he never stops moving his feet so relaxed so relaxed and so fluid what's interesting to me is the feet just never stops moving his feet and that's just i don't understand why more people don't emulate his style because he's obviously a traditionally trained thai fighter but has adapted everything to a much more dynamic and fluid method man it's like, you know, when I watch San Chai and Loma Chica, I watch the shit out of these guys, right? And so,

I watch Liam Harrison, right? Or John Wayne Parr, Raymond Deckers, you know, these great Muay Thai guys, right? And they inspire me. I'm like, dude, I want to fucking do it.

And then I watch San Chai, I watch Loma Chica. I'm like, why do I do this? Right. Right? It's the next level. Do I, why am I even going to the gym?

I can't do this. Bap, bap, bap, bap, bap. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about right there. And so fluid. Just relax. Look at him. He's not even getting tired. I mean, look at his face.

He doesn't even, I mean, he could do this. All day. All day. All day. And, I mean, he could do it in his kitchen while he's cooking you know he's 36 yeah I mean it's really incredible he's something special that's the most the most facial expression I've ever seen on him right there yeah it's probably smiling 150 rounds at the end of the day I mean the

guys constantly training constantly in the gym and one of the things that I like about the way the tieies spar too is that they play. They're tapping each other. They're just working on their timing and their movement. They're not hurting each other. They're saving it for fights. They fight every week. My coach, Dorian Price,

he's over there right now. They fight every week. I follow him on Instagram. Nice. He's a bad motherfucker. Amazing person. I mean, man, they just fight every week, man. I follow him on Instagram. Oh, nice, nice, nice. Yeah, he's a bad motherfucker. Amazing, amazing person, man. Just one of the best guys you'll ever meet in your life, man.

I like one of the things he said recently. He's like, yeah, I'm wearing the same gray T-shirt and the same shorts. He goes, I'm not here for a fucking fashion show. I'm here to train. I'm in Thailand. Yeah, it's hot as hell. I'm here to get my work in. Yeah, and he goes over toand with ray and simpson and um another guy i hope to get over here too he was showing on one of his instagram posts he was like these are my five-star accommodations he had a white plastic bucket this

is how i shower you know like he's over there doing the real deal yeah like a real tie fighter yep yep he's so that's where he actually goes up to, I don't think he still goes up there, but he used to go up to Asan, which is the northern part of Thailand. And originally they didn't let foreigners up there. He would go to Sitman Chai. He was the first foreigner that they let in that camp.

And that was his dream. He wanted to live like a Thai fighter. Wow. Like a savage. That's awesome. That's where I'm lucky to have a friend like him because he brings the Thai style back to me. And that's. That's where I'm lucky to have a friend like him because he brings the Thai style back to me and that's why I've never had to go to Thailand. Like he goes over, he'll only come back from my camps. He's had tons of people offer and he won't come back for no one else.

That's awesome. He's been, so when I was telling a story about going, you know, started this Japanese Jiu-Jitsu place, the first gym I went into, he was there. Wow. And you know, we both started together and he wanted, well he already went into, he was there. And, you know, we both started together and he wanted, well, he had already started actually. He was out in Virginia and then just moved to Columbus, but he won. We both wanted to do Muay Thai. And I was like, dude, there's no money in Muay Thai. You do that shit. So he went to Muay Thai and I went with MMA. Of course he went with MMA for a little while. Dude, I wish there was money in Muay Thai. I love watching Lion Fight.

I love watching it. And I prefer that even over regular kickboxing. I like the elbows. Oh, totally, yeah. Yeah, I just think... Yeah, why they limit it? Yeah, why limit it? I just...

I mean, I think they limited it for K-1 because they thought it would create more action with less clenching, but... Yeah, it's garbage. It is, right? It's part of the art. I mean, not garbage. I shouldn't say that.

It's not garbage. I still enjoy watching Bellator kickboxing. I love Glory because they just have some wild-ass fights. But a lot of those guys that are the top of the food chain guys are Muay Thai guys. Yeah, I mean, Kevin Ross is in Bellator now. I mean, this guy elbowed the shit out of everybody. John Wayne Park. John Wayne.

Joe Schilling. Yeah. I mean, these are elbow guys. Yeah, elbow guys. Yeah. And, man, I've always thought that if they marketed muay thai like they do the kickboxing i think it would blow up a lot better but when you take muay thai like lion fights and they're they're playing the snake charmer music and they got the mong kongs and they're dancing

around y crewing and shit and everybody's like dude i don't want to see this garbage i want to see some fucking blood yeah it's hard for people to appreciate the tradition but I don't you know I respect their tradition you know what someone explained to me they said that what's beautiful about the Mong Kong

and the Y crew is that you get relaxed it's like you're out there dancing and then you can put on your best performance because you're already

in front of all those people and you kind of loosen up and then doing that that's one of the benefits of that I personally love it I think it's awesome and I'll watch it all day long but I don't think the casual american fan is ever going to be

attracted to that i wonder you know i wonder if they could be talked into it it just seems like what happened with mma was like lightning in a bottle that forrest griffin stephan bonner fight on tv on spike tv nobody knew what the fuck it was at the time you're watching mma for the first time you see that crazy shit. These guys are just throwing down wild haymakers and head kicks and takedowns and then exhausted. I mean, these guys just drain themselves

out. I think those guys made the UFC. I think in that one fight, it's one of those weird moments, lightning in a bottle. You know, at one point in time, they estimate there was as many as 10 million people watching that fight really for and it started with just a couple of million like the event started with just a couple million people yes exactly dude these guys are fucking going crazy

and that one fight being so good i think made mma i think it just was the launching point and then after that people got into it and then they started started saying, holy shit, this is awesome. And then all the other fights. And then it became the thing that it is today. But I think that lightning in a bottle moment, it's hard to recreate. And with Muay Thai, it just never happened. There's no lightning in a bottle moment. And I don't know how you would recreate that today.

It seems like all the stars were aligned, right? Because now today reality tv shows are kind of they're so saturated there's so many of them back then there wasn't as many so to have the ultimate fighter we got these guys in a house and they're all competing and they're gonna fight for this six-figure contract on television it was a big deal it was a big show to watch but now there's like everybody's watching people fucking selling cars and Pawn shops and they're living in the woods and people making moonshine. It's like fuck man. There's so many reality shows It's almost

Oversaturated to the point where if you had a Muay Thai show it's like okay. Here's another crazy thing people are doing Oh this guy's a Contender that Muay Thai contender. That's right. They did. Right. Did that even air here? I watched it.

Did it air in America? Yeah. I don't know how I watched it. Maybe on YouTube or something. Because the contender here was a boxing show, right? Yeah, but they had the contender Muay Thai also. Was it called the contender Asia? Is that what it was called?

Yeah, I don't remember. I remember John Wayne Parr was on it, Yotsun Clive. Right, right, right. I don't remember it that well. There's another bad motherfucker, Yotts and Clyde. Holy shit. He just came back. Did he?

Oh, he retired for a little bit, right? Yeah, he just fired, I think, last weekend maybe or something. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, to me, it's one of the great unsung combat sports. All these people that are watching boxing, and I love boxing, but if HBO just really wanted to get down and dirty,

come on, HBO, show me some Muay Thai. Just push it. That would be so amazing. Have San Chai on. Can you imagine? Or maybe ESPN. Instead of having these commentators, these narrators that are just dipshits and, you know, every time they talk about

MMA, I almost vomit. I mean, it's just ridiculous. And then, you know, instead of these garbage shows they have, they have golf, you know? Right. I mean, they have, like, darts. I've seen fucking darts on ESPN. But you can't show a kickboxing match.

Come on. Well, you know what, man? I think there's a problem with commentary with sports that leaks into MMA, and I don't think it belongs there. And I've fought against it from the beginning, and that's the insult commentary. There's a kind of like calling people bums and calling people losers and, you know. Snoop Dogg. Get out of the game. Snoop Dogg. Get out of the game.

Snoop Dogg, that piece of shit. I'll call him out. What don't you like about Snoop Dogg? He called Connor. Oh, yeah. Mary called him a bitch. That was a mess. That was a mess.

That's not cool, man. That was a mess. I think he was fucked up. I don't care. Yeah. You know, he put it out in public. He could have, you know, apologized, deleted, whatever. You know?

Yeah. If I go to the UFC PI, I might just punch him if I see him there. Whoa. I'm cool with that. Look out, Snoop. You don't want none of that, Snoop. Hey. I'm just saying, that really offends me, man, because you know what, man?

Conor, you know, people all have their opinions about him. I respect the shit out of that guy. I love what he's done. I love his shtick. I think he's a true sportsman. I mean, I like it. He comes into the limelight for a little while, and then he goes back, and I think he goes back and he works his ass off.

I really think he does. He definitely does. He wouldn't be where he's at if he didn't, right? But everybody judges him by what he does out here. he definitely does he definitely does he wouldn't be where he's at if he didn't right yeah you know but everybody judges him by you know what he does out here well listen

what he did was make a hundred million dollars fighting against the greatest boxer of all time for his first professional boxing match and did well

and won a couple of rounds which is fucking crazy you know that's fucking crazy I mean I think Floyd took off I think the vast majority

of people could of good fighters could win a round against Floyd just because Floyd, I don't know if I'd say gives him away, but he's going to feel you. That's the way he fights. He's fought everybody like that. He rarely wins the first few rounds. Agreed.

But that's not taking away nothing from Conor, though. He didn't want to get clipped by that left uppercut that wasn't that wasn't on his plans you're right yeah um i just think the what i'm talking about is like the commentators and a lot of the journalists and you see less of it today because i think even a smith yeah that kind of style there's a style and this is their shtick their shtick is mocking people and creating controversy and i that's why i say i don't think mma is a sport i think it's more intense it's you're emptying out out there you know when when you see a fight you know and it's a crazy ass war like robbie lawler

hafeel dos anjos where it's just five rounds of chaos, to diminish either one of these guys as a man, as a human being, based on their performance, to mock them or belittle them, I just don't think it has any place in that. I think it's a way more intense and way more personal experience for those guys. It's not playing baseball. It's not fucking Bill Buckner dropping a ball. That's not what it is, man. It's way more intense.

If you got a guy who's a lazy football player who doesn't run fast enough, you want to mock him, that's whatever. You go ahead and do that. I don't care. It doesn't bother me. But you want to make fun of a guy

who's literally putting his health on the line in an occupation where you're competing against a motherfucking trained killer and you guys are going to throw bones at each other for five minute rounds you got to have some respect you have to have respect or you shouldn't be talking about it you should have some understanding of it you should know what the fuck you're watching and you should have some respect and if you want to say that a guy should retire if you want to say that a guy is probably seen his better days that's fine but have some respect. And if you want to say that a guy should retire, if you want to say that a guy is probably seeing his better days, that's fine. But have some respect.

This is a different thing, man. It is not a regular sport. I agree. And I would say also that they have no right to be saying things that they've never done, right? Yeah. I mean, you just can't – you don't have to compete right like like you do jujitsu and muay thai and shit and like you get such a more in-depth knowledge about what they're truly going through right and what's happening by just experiencing it a little bit right there's that

and there's also i think if you've never really been punched in the face and you're talking about guys getting punched in the face, like you really don't even understand the experience. Or if you never, even worse, I mean, you've never been punched in the face and there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, the worst I ever had, I went down to Cuba for a little while and trained with the Olympic boxing team down there. When did you do this? 2012, I think. Yeah? I think.

How did this come about? Was it even legal to go down there back then? Did you go on a raft? How did you get down there? I think I'm past the, what would they call it? Statue of limitations. Statue of limitations. It's actually illegal to spend money there.

So I didn't spend any money there. But I went there, and I guess it's not illegal to actually go there. So we went through Mexico City. You go to Mexico City, then you buy a flight in Mexico City and go over there. One of my coaches I worked with for a long time on and off is Cuban, and he grew up there. And we went there together. He's a part of the – he used to coach the wrestling team.

So I went there and trained with the wrestlers for six, eight weeks. And we'd go over to the boxing team every now and then. Well, I went with one guy. He was a two-time gold medalist, I think. And I've never seen boxing like that in my life. I mean, I've never felt anything. And there's nothing I could do, nothing. I mean, I tried every fucking trick in the book. I tried every athletic move. Hands up,

hands down, hands to the side. Whatever. Nothing. I mean, I've never seen Boston. And, I mean, two-time gold medalist. I mean, he was an amazing, amazing Boston. I can't remember his name or anything. But, you know, just never experienced anything like it. And it was the same with the wrestlers. I mean, I went with some guys

that... I got to go with Mihan Lopez. He's a heavyweight, of course. Greco, I don't know if you know. He is the greatest Greco next to Carolyn. Rivaling Carolyn in the greatest ever. I went with this guy, Ivan

Fundor, who you had been asking last week. He was a guy who... I think he was the guy that Askin couldn't get past for the Olympics. I know that Fundor beat him, but he teched him. So, you know, Askren's – you know, as amazing as he is, I mean, that's how much better Fundor is. Yeah, to explain teched him for people, was it 15 points? I don't know what it is in international, actually.

I thought it was like 9 or 10, but whatever. You've got to get way ahead of someone. I mean, he worked them over. So I got to work with these just amazing guys. But the boxing, that's what we were talking about. I mean, I've literally – to experience like this guy is punching you and there's nothing you can do yeah nothing you don't have we're in a little ring and i mean you don't have a choice you can get out of the ring or you

can get punched you're just getting that's your only choice just getting boxed up boxed up and i mean and he's moving you know like sand chai relaxed and chilled and he's like what do you want you know yeah you'll fucking do something or what? Wow. Not talking to me like that. But doing it with his emotions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Terrible.

But what an amazing place though, man. You know, I feel really bad for those people. What an experience, man. Just a different world. You feel like you're going back in the 50s. Where'd you eat over there? How do you eat? So we stayed with Ivan Fundora and his wife who actually cooked for us every day. but there's restaurants and stuff too I mean it's like a dollar or two and we went to this one

place just about every day there was a they'd serve a big bowl of spaghetti like this big around and this big just a gigantic bowl for like a dollar wow had a chicken on top they don't um they don't really have red meat I guess it's only for the wealthy or for the top people. I don't know if it's illegal or something. But to witness the – LeVon Lopez is who we stayed with originally. So to witness the way they live was really fascinating because in their wrestling dorms, they have – it's like six stories high. We had to walk to the bottom to get a five-gallon bucket of water to take a bath.

They had no running water upstairs to take a bath. They had no running water upstairs. Take a bath. That's how you brush your teeth. That's how you do everything. The guys on the top floor are the first team, the varsity team, so to speak, the first-level guys. They get four meals a day, and they get air conditioning in the room. The guys right below them, the second team, they got three meals a day

and no air conditioning in the room. The guys right below them, the second team, they got three meals a day and no air conditioning. So these guys are literally fighting for their food and for the next level. And I mean, I've seen fights break out. I've seen guys trying to hurt each other in the wrestling room. I mean, it's fucking intense day in, day out, man. They have some incredible genetics over there, too.

Incredible. You look at a guy like yoel romero that motherfucker looks like he was made in the lab somewhere like some scientists just spliced together all the perfect attributes and just to be clear like don't quote me on that i guess kind of how i heard through you know like translation you know i mean so i maybe if i got something wrong i don't want some you know a bunch of cubans trying to beat me up for quoting it wrong or anything. Like I said, it was an amazing place, man.

Those guys are fighting for their food, man. I've seen one kid. He was the cousin of LeVon Lopez. LeVon's a bronze medalist and probably should have been gold medalist. The Olympics have a lot of kind of behind-the-scenes stuff that people don't know about. I'm not sure if I'm really at liberty to speak about in public. Because it's rumors, right? No, there's facts.

Like what? There's certainly facts. Like I said, I'm not sure that I can really talk about it in public. I wouldn't want to hurt any of those guys. But his cousin came from Pinar del Rio, which we went out there one day and that was that is a good story so we got to the pinar del rio it's like two hours from havana and we took a donkey cart to a fucking farm in the middle of nowhere we go back uh probably five six acre farm we walk back through this horse field walking over shit and everything and then there's a uh i'll show you all these

pictures that it's too it's fascinating and uh there's a forest. And as soon as you walk through the forest, now it's a casino in the middle of a forest. So I guess all this shit's illegal. There's cockfights, chicken fights in the fucking middle of the woods. Wow. Which is illegal in Cuba. Cockfights are illegal? Yeah. Really?

So I got to experience illegal chicken fights in an illegal country. But yeah, we took the, uh, the donkey cart out there and, you know, we got stopped by the cops actually. So I'm sitting there like, you know,

this is about to be really bad. So I never even told my wife that, but, uh, so anyway, yeah. So we had the Pinheiro Del Rio. That's where LeVon's cousin lived.

He actually saved his money, which I mean, I think they get like, everybody gets like the same amount, like the doctor and the chef or the waiter, whatever. They all get the same money, right? This thing is $30 a month. So he saved all this money.

Their entire home is smaller than this room right here. Four people living in there. Probably, I would say, about the size of these tables combined. Wow. Anyway, so while I was trying to get it, his cousin saved his money for like a whole year just so he could come train with the national team. He came out there, only had money to get there,

so LeVon was sharing his meals with him. So now he's only eating two meals a day instead of the three or four, maybe three meals instead of the four, something like that. But, yeah, very, very fascinating just watching that. You know, we just forget what we have and how blessed our lives are. Humbling. Humbling, man. I mean, these guys are just savages, man, just hard, hard workers

and getting the job done and just getting nothing for it. You know, some of the guys at the top, like Mijan Lopez, he gets some things like Fundora, for instance, he got Internet access. That was like a blessing for him to have Internet access because he had done so much for the country in the Olympics. That's crazy. I think he was a bronze medalist, I think. They hooked him up with the Internet.

Yeah, hooked up with the Internet. And i still email him every now and then like he'll send me pictures of the family and stuff and and you can and you said it's something like uh you know fundora at cuba government.net or something like that you know i mean it's like so it goes through the government so the government tracks every email coming in and out so yeah so he would even tell me like before i left you know like like don't email me this or this don't talk about this and yeah i think it's maybe laxed up a little bit but i'm not sure man so yeah i can tell you a lot of stories about it was really a very eye-opening experience like like i want to take my kids there sometime like just to see like look you want

fucking what if you grew up here motherfucker yeah you know shit right you know be happy you know you got what you got and yeah yeah i mean it's because so one of the pictures i could show you would be the wrestling room in pinar del rio i think yo romero came from there actually um mayhem came from there levon came from there and their wrestling room is actually probably about as big as this room. And it's a dirt floor with the mats are, you know, so, so if you imagine a mat getting dissolved in water and like all the little pieces just spread out. So they, they sweep up all those pieces, put them in a, it's about as big as this table here that they sweep it all together and stack it up and that's their mat. So they practice you know basically take down stuff and that's why they're

so hard to take down they learn from a young age you get taken down it fucking sucks wow yeah i can show you a picture of it i mean it's really fascinating wow how long were you over there for uh six to eight weeks i can't remember so that's a long time yeah we stayed for a long time and we did basically the whole training camp over there for which fight uh jordan mean wow and that was um so that's when i first started working with that guy and you know the first thing he said was like you need better wrestling let's go to cuba holy shit i said all right let's go wow and so i wrestled with those guys every day um my wrestling came up tremendously oh i would imagine yeah i mean

there's no way sink or swim um and then i said i got to work with the boxing team the boxing team i mean the wrestling is one thing but i seen a lot of the junior boxing team guys i seen one kid get kicked off the boxing team like they take their boxing very very serious over there right that's their national sport um one kid got kicked off the team because he wasn't keeping up. And they were doing, they had to get up at like 5 a.m., do like an eight-mile run or something. And they put water bottles like this, and they fill it up with sand, and that's their dumbbells. And the kid didn't have any shoes, but he couldn't keep up, and they were doing hill sprints. And he kept falling behind.

They're like, you're off the team. Whoa. So they would do like a 5 a.m., and then they go to school, and then they do an afternoon workout a.m and then they go to school and then they do an afternoon workout and then they go back to school and then they do an evening workout and they live in these dorms and that's literally all they do that's their entire life wow they want to get out they you know or live a better life you know they be a champion or die holy yeah and again you know um i i was looking all this or learning all this through translation so uh you know i could have some things not uh exactly right but you know i was i was living there with them for a little while have you wanted to go to thailand absolutely yeah

yeah i do too yeah you know my thing is uh so like when i did that my kids were very young and it wasn't so bad to leave them with their mom for a little while. Now I have three kids. Specifically, my daughter. It's just hard to leave. Right. And to fly to Thailand. Have you never been there?

No. No. So to fly there, you know, it's expensive. And I just can't leave my family anymore. But there's places you can go and bring them. Like Phuket's supposed to be nice, right? Yeah. And again, the flights is what's expensive's expensive once you get there it's cheap right but the flight i mean a thousand dollars per person you know i'm looking at five thousand dollars right just to fly there yeah so yeah i want to but that's my the nice thing about having

dory yeah right right right now are you living in colorado still or are you here yeah so I live in Colorado right now, and then I'm coming back and forth a lot, come to LA. Yeah, doing a lot of work with the Muscle Farm. Because Muscle Farm's opening up their main headquarters now in Burbank. Is that what it's going to be? Yep, so they moved here. Why'd you decide to move here? Well, the CEO lives here, for one thing,

and I think they're going to attract a lot more athletes here, and I think that they're going to be able to do a much bigger thing. And really what they're doing is they're restructuring the entire business. They're kind of moving away from just simply being, you know, well, they changed it from Muscle Farm to MP, for instance, so it's not just for the bodybuilder type crowd and the, excuse me, for the meatheads and, you know, and the, excuse me, for the meatheads and the, you know, and without, you know, I mean, they'll certainly still be catering to the, that crowd, but

now they want to open it up more as a lifestyle brand, expand it. And they'll be doing a lot more stuff with a lot more athletes, which I think they'll be able to do out here better than in Denver. But now as a guy who's trained at sea level and you lived at Denver, how much of a benefit is it to be at that 5,500 feet altitude? Pros and cons. What's the con? Well, the number one con is that your max capacity is lower. So you can't work as hard?

You can't work as hard. Right. But once you get adapted, though? You know, I've been a little torn with that because I tell you, when I do my max capacity training, I don't think I've been able to reach the same levels that I was at sea level. I've heard other people say that they are able to. My PRs, you know, in terms of lifts, have been comparable.

But, of course, I was at Westside before, so it's not, you know. I mean, you're just not. I tell you what, you walk into Westside before, so it's not, you know. I mean, you're just not. I tell you what, you walk into Westside, like, you hit a PR, period. Like, you don't, it doesn't matter. There's an energy in the air. There's an aura. It's an intense place. Yeah, you've been there.

I mean, you probably hit a PR, I bet, if you worked out. Again, there's pros and cons. I mean, the obvious pro is the red blood cell count and I think your lung capacity goes up yeah the idea they say is to sleep at altitude but to train at sea level exactly so that you can push your max capacity at sea level and then recover yeah so if like if you're in California you would live in Big Bear but then you would train down in like San Bernardino or something like that exactly yeah and i don't know i don't even know california well enough to know that how that works well big bear is pretty close you get to big bear in two

hours yeah you could drive there it's funny that people out here say that's close like to me two hours is a long ass way well yeah no it's close as fuck here two hours to take you that long to get to irvine in traffic that's what everybody says if i gotta work in irvine like if i'm doing the improv and it's eight o'clock show i leave here at four i'm not bullshitting i leave here at 4 p.m and i'm stuck in traffic for two and a half fucking hours no bullshit so i give myself a podcast huh yeah podcasts uh audio books you know anything. Just keep your mind off that fucking, those red lights in front of you. Right.

Break lights. I'm from Columbus, Ohio. Like, you can go around the outer belt in, like, an hour. Yeah. Yeah, you guys have terrible traffic. It's like, oh, stuck in traffic for 10 minutes. Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, Denver's pretty bad now, actually.

All that weed. Yeah, all the weed, man. People just went there. Last time I was there, I was like, what the fuck is going on here with all this traffic? It's just weed. Apparently, I guess it's actually been growing for years like that anyway. But, man, when you go skiing, that's the worst, man. You come back from the ski resort Sunday, 4 or 5 o'clock, dude.

I just did it the other week, and it took me three and a half hours for a one and a half hour drive. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, Denver's just, it's an amazing city because you're in this cool city that's a real city, a legit city, and then right outside is the fucking Rocky Mountains. It's right there. You drive an hour, and you're in the Rocky Mountains.

I mean mean fucking wilderness Jack elk screaming and bears running around you're like wow what other city has that an hour outside the city you're in the

fucking mountains and it's sunny too yeah you get all four seasons which I like and the people are cool as fuck yeah people are cool yeah

this is one of the few places I would live outside of California well you used to live there right yeah I lived in Boulder yeah I'm not sure I would go to Boulder California. Well, you used to live there, right? Yeah, I lived in Boulder. Yeah. I'm not sure I would go to Boulder. Well, I was in the mountains above Boulder.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was like 3,000 feet above Boulder. I was 8,500 feet. It was pretty interesting. Nice. Did you feel a difference? Yeah, man. Going up the stairs, you get tired. It's crazy.

It's so thin. I mean, but did you adapt to it and feel the difference from that? No, I was only there for three months. My wife got pregnant. Yeah. My wife got pregnant, and it's rough up there for women if they haven't adapted. It's rough in Denver, but then you go 3,000 feet above Denver. It's real rough.

Yeah, I go up there all the time. Yeah. If you're a woman and you get pregnant up there, it's like having the flu. It's real bad. And they have a really high instance of low birth weight and premature birth. I did not know that. Yeah. Denver does as well. Denver has one of the highest rates in the country of premature births. I did not know that. Yeah. Denver does as well.

Denver has one of the highest rates in the country of premature births. I did not know that. That's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. I was up at my friend's house out by Edwards a little bit past Vail the other day, and you were talking about the elk and the bears and stuff. Woo!

I mean, at nighttime, he said usually you shine a flashlight out and you see the eyes of the mountain lions. Yes. Because he's got dogs and stuff, and they're just sitting there waiting he's got a fence now but he's like you just see their eyes there was one a story that i tweeted out today in california where some fucking mountain lion was banging on this screen door or this uh glass door trying to get at this dog in california yeah they got pictures of this cat you don't want to mess with those guys fuck yeah one of them ate my dog a bear is one thing oh really yeah one of

them ate my dog in gold hill this fucking mountain lion man right outside these people's house trying to get at their little dog yeah they took pictures of it that and it's killed a bunch of pets in the neighborhood, apparently. They have a real problem with them in California because they don't hunt them. So they're not scared of people at all. That's the problem with California, right? They're against everything that I'm for. They're against quite a few things.

Except for legalizing weed. It's ignorance-based. They have an idea of what a mountain lion is and that these are these majestic creatures and they shouldn't be hunted. And what they would like to do is eliminate all hunting and let nature sort it out on their own. But yet they have grocery stores everywhere where they have food that's murdered animals that are factory farmed.

It's the stupidest fucking shit ever. You're not going to turn the whole state into vegetarians. So this idea that you're not, you're going to eliminate hunting is so fucking stupid. It's like you would rather people. They're trying to not you're going to eliminate hunting is so fucking stupid it's like you would rather people they're trying to do that trying to eliminate hunting or the people that are the most radical wildlife activists would like to eventually eliminate hunting and have all these animals sorted out with themselves in a natural way but they're never going to eliminate people eating meat 97 of the people in this country eat meat that's that's a real number so this idea that

you're going to somehow or another change those 97 based on the desires of the three percent which fluctuate back and forth by the way the three percent there's a lot of those three percent that fall off and they eventually for health reasons go back to eating meat again or eat some animal products these fish animals are awesome i love the fact they're real i love that they're out there but if you think that it's okay to have tons of mountain lions i have a buddy who works at tahone ranch they got a trail camera over there over a pond they got photos of 16 different mountain lions visiting this pond yeah what fuck man that's intense and this this is all because in the

1990s they outlawed hunting them. They didn't do it for any rational reason. I mean, a mountain lion is an apex predator, right? It's an apex predator, and you can eat them, and they're delicious. They taste like pork. Yeah. Yeah, my friend Steve shot one recently. He said it was one of the most delicious meals he's ever had in his life.

I'll have to try it. Yeah, they have delicious fat that you cook them, and you cook it just like pork. I never would have thought that. I never would have thought it either. Because they're in the cat family, right? Yeah, it's delicious fat that you cook them. You cook it just like pork. I never would have thought that. I never would have thought either. Because they're in the cat family, right? Yeah, it's weird eating a cat. But apparently they're delicious. Probably have before.

Yeah, well. Unknowingly. But it's just to control the population, to keep them from. It's good luck finding a deer in California. There's so few deer out there. You ever feel like when you walk into the grocery store and you see the meat aisle, like you just see animals sitting there? You know what I mean? Because you see. I mean, the meat aisle, like you just see animals sitting there. You know what I mean?

Because you see, I mean, the meat aisle is gigantic, as big as this wall. Yeah. And like when I see it, I just see a bunch of animals. Yeah. I'm like, man, like none of these were treated right, raised right, killed right. And now they're packaged like there's some glorious, amazing food. Well, it's just soup. It's too sanitized and sterilized.

Yeah. It's weird and especially as someone who's killed animals and quartered them up in the field and carried them away and cut them up and put them and wrapped them and vacuum sealed them and put them in my freezer and then thawed them out and ate them like i've been there through the whole process so i look at the whole thing totally different now when i go to the butcher section it's just i did that when i was like 10 years old so yeah so you've been doing it forever yeah well i haven't hunted since i was like a teenager but but you have and you know it so yeah i just think i mean we used to raise chickens and like

my dad would be like go kill a chicken for dinner like that was like my job sometimes so yeah same thing you know especially when you know like you raise the animal too right you become kind of you know have some compassion for. Especially when you raise the animal, too. Right. You become kind of, you know, have some compassion for it. Yeah, yeah. You realize that chickens in particular, I mean, way more so with cattle and pigs. You realize pigs are very smart. You know, they're intelligent. Like a dog.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I know that technically they're that smart, right? But there's something different about dogs, right? Yeah. For whatever reason. Yeah, there's something different about it. For us. Maybe just my bias from what I've been taught from society or whatever.

Yeah, culturally, right? Yeah. Yeah, we have animals that we like better. Yeah. Yeah, certainly, yeah. I mean, I felt terrible killing some of the pigs. Yeah, I'd imagine. Yeah.

And then you eat them. And, you know, personally, I mean, I always thought the grocery some of the pigs. Yeah, I'd imagine. Yeah. And then you eat them. And, you know, personally, I mean, I always thought the grocery store sausage and bacon tasted way better. But I was like, man, that was sort of my excuse. I was like, man, it doesn't taste as good. I'm not sure if I want to eat it. But in my head, I'm thinking, man, I really feel bad for this guy. I don't want to eat him. Yeah.

No, I know what you mean, man. We have a weird disconnect with food in this country in particular and especially in this day and age when you have a majority of the people eating meat and the majority of people never seen the animal die and then get chopped up and turned into meat and then eat it it's uh there's always going to be this weird disconnect and that's what you change that though well i don't know i don't know if you can i just think it's one of the weird it's it's i don't think i think this society is an amazing thing what we've we've accomplished where you don't have to ever worry about food you can just go down the store right down the street here and get a steak and cook it and instantaneously you don't have to kill it you don't have to dress it you don't have to kill it. You don't have to dress it. All these steps have been avoided.

You just give them a piece of paper. That piece of paper gets you a steak. It's just amazing. You could go to a store down the corner over here and you can get gasoline. Some motherfucker had to go to the Middle East, pull oil out of the ground,

refine it, put it in tanker trucks, drive it across the country, pump it into a hole in the ground, you swipe a piece of plastic through this reader, you punch in your area code or your zip code, whatever the fuck it is. What is it? Your zip code, right? Zip code, yeah. You put the nozzle in your tank, you fill your tank up with gas, this fucking car that's designed by engineers in a way you would never be able to figure out on your own.

And you get to turn the key and drive this thing around. There's so many steps that have been taken to make our lives way more convenient. You don't even have to do all that anymore. You have this thing in your hand, you just push a button and some dude's going to show up at your fucking door with food. Or some dude

with a car and drives you anywhere you want to go. Yeah, drive you wherever you want to go yeah drive you where you go yeah it's he shows he shows up with the animal that's been you know slaughtered and cooked and cooked and sterilized and you ain't got to worry about if it's healthy or not like when i was in cuba they had like i said the red meat is you know i don't know if it's illegal or or just very hard to come by or whatever but so we went to this sort of black market stand and man, I got a picture of it. I mean,

there's a table bigger than this table of just red meat sitting out. There's flies on it. And, but people are just like, dad, yes, I want some, you know,

it's all the different cuts and everything. Not cut up just terribly. Right. Right. Wow. Yeah. We're lucky as shit man and this is the easiest time ever to be alive yeah it really is yeah at least in america

yeah at least in america maybe not in some places no i think that's why it's good to visit other places man just to just to get a look around and see what it's like you know that's one of my reasons i want to go to thailand like i want to go there and train but only so much i mean there's like i think that so much of the the thai uh skill training is already in america that it's not gonna you might get some details or whatever over there but they're they're also so traditional and so far behind us in terms of uh you know at least in strength conditioning and proper ways of training and things like that right that i i don't know how beneficial that is but i want to go over there and see how they live. I mean, they eat spiders and, you know, these insects,

and most people are ultra poor over there. But, you know, they're really Buddhist, right? And I guess they kind of, you know, they drop their kids off at the freaking Thai camp and just leave. Yeah. You know, it's very strange to us yeah yeah I find it fascinating yeah I do too I find it incredibly fascinating you know I talked to John Wayne Park quite a bit about his experiences over there he went over there when he was real young

and lived over there and lived in Thai camps lived like a tie incredible stories you know so it's just a very unique culture it just it helps you appreciate where you live and puts things into perspective yeah and there in uh let's say japan you've been there i'm sure right yeah i've been in japan fascinating fascinated the shit out of me too people being in a foreign land that's also like on another planet people uh standing in line at the subway to get on the subway train yeah no i was there for we did like a military tour and i was i think uh todd duffy was there and uh was it cb dolloway maybe but yeah you could see todd from you know over top of the crowd from

like a mile away right yeah it's hilarious yeah it's interesting um how polite they are over there so polite yeah yeah it's like there's so much order and discipline it's it's just completely fascinating yeah i remember him on the subway trainer they're standing in line yeah um i i just wanted to walk to the front of the line fuck you guys you probably could have done it they probably wouldn't have even said anything or then we did another one in iraq uh or middle east iraq was one of the places or did we i can't remember but the middle east and man those people will they will shove you right out of the way right like you know you funneling in through the airport or something right they're the rudest people ever when it comes to you know

standing in line yeah you know i'm talking about right yeah it's ridiculous i mean you know you say something to them, I don't speak English or whatever. I'm like, oh, I don't speak your language either, so I guess we're fucked. How many different countries have you fought in? Only two, yeah. I fought in the UK.

Is it a big transition going over there? Like the weight cut's got to be harder and finding the right food? When I fought over there like the the weight cut's got to be harder and the finding the right food when i fought over there um yeah the wake up wasn't that bad uh you said finding the right food was terrible you said you've been on a ketogenic diet we were talking before the podcast for the last what three years about three years yeah it was after i fought uh johnny hendrix actually and i suffered a concussion and that was what originally got me on to the idea of doing ketogenic diet. And then I fought Robbie Lawler next, and...

Why did the concussion get you on the idea of having a ketogenic diet? Well, it's good for TBI and concussion. I mean, that's the theory, at least. I don't think they have a lot of proof. I know they've done some research on mice, but not necessarily on humans. But they believe it does. And how did you feel when you changed your diet? In what sense? Like, initially, was there a struggle? Oh, yeah.

The first couple weeks is terrible. That keto flu thing? Yeah. I had it really bad. But I didn't do it after the Hendricks fight. But I started reading about it then. And then when I fought Lawler, I missed weight. I think it was like half a pound or something.

That was the only time I've ever missed weight in my life. I did everything exactly like I had done 100 times before. Me and my coach, Tom Berry, at Westside Barbell, we had everything planned out. We had a notebook of, you know, this is what we eat this day, this day, this day, and this day, this moment. And everything was planned out. We did everything exactly the same. Ended up, youed up still missing weight.

And that was when I realized my metabolism had changed. So I started looking more and more into different types of diets. So I've always been my own guinea pig. That's sort of a blessing and a curse. That's why I want to be a coach. Because I think I'll make a ten times better coach than I was a fighter because I've experimented on myself. That's why I have all these books and everything.

And the problem with that is that you get bad info too or you misinterpret or misunderstand it and maybe it's for regular people and I'm a high-level athlete, et cetera, et cetera. So anyway, I used it for one, for the concussion, and two, for sort of a metabolic shift into more fats. And I haven't missed weight since. Did you feel any benefit of switching to a ketogenic diet in terms of performance? You know, I actually felt a lack of benefit, actually. So some of the max capacity lowered immediately. Some of my PRs went down over time.

Did they come back up? Yeah, they came back up, yeah. So when did they go down? Like how long after? Right away. Right away. Within, yeah, within the first week or two. I mean, they're completely shot.

Because it takes a few months to really truly adapt, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And what I've done now over time is I've adapted the diet to, you know, I do a lot of different things now. So I'm not as ketogenic as i once was where it was all keto keto kid now i don't even pay attention to my ketones well i take that ketone ester like we took earlier i take that a lot which i fucking love and you probably feel it right now like shit's amazing it tastes like sucking on godzilla's dick it does it's worse yeah maybe

it's like whoa yeah it's terrible. Whoa. Terrible. But I use that, and then I use regular keto salt supplements. But that one, for performance, actually brings my performance up higher than I would usually go. Do you take that ketone ester before you train? Yeah. How long before you train? So I take it with some glucose, usually about 20 minutes before I train.

And you use those glucose packets? Yeah, who makes those packets? I just whatever at the grocery store power bar or whatever, you know, it doesn't matter It's just a matter of sugar. Yeah, you just had to make sure you have some sugar because of the hypoglycemic effects I don't drop your blood sugar because it's so potent is very very potent Like our ketones are probably in the three like I actually have my blood meter maybe check but i'm probably in the three to five millimole range right now um but yeah so you know i do that and then but now i've adjusted it where i'm not as concerned with staying ketosis because the main concern with that is i want to get the benefits for the brain and um you know the tbi and things like that um now it's a i'm when I get closer to a fight, it's more about

performance. I'll add in some. I use a UCAN starch. I use sweet potatoes. Certain starches that don't really affect your ketone levels quite as much. That can bring my performance up a lot better. I think there's a real issue with high-level athletes

with the amount of workout put that you put in that you probably need more carbohydrates than the regular person that's on a ketogenic diet. I've been, again, on my own guinea pig, right, and I experiment with that. And I've been kind of torn with that, right? So one of the things that a uh are a lot of people kind of promulgate is that our sport is very anaerobic and it's really not it's a lot more aerobic and

your aerobic capacity will go up on keto your aerobic uh your my ability to recover specifically without even with no carbs my blood glucose could be in 70s and 80s and um not have carbs for weeks at a time and my ability to recover goes up tremendously. Like we were talking about tendonitis. My tendonitis goes away. My injuries, my joints just feel better. I feel better all the way around. My brain feels better.

And a lot of things like that. But when you do need to kick in that mass capacity, anaerobic part of things,'s where you know things suffer a little bit suffer yeah and that's where you have to add in the carbs and and but again you know the the amount of training that i do i mean i can add in a lot of carbs and i can still get away with it and stay and i can even stay in ketosis if if i want to but i think a lot of people make the mistake that i made originally again is my own guinea pig, and I really focused on the blood ketone levels rather than the performance. And I wanted to be able to perform with high ketogenic levels,

high ketone levels in my blood, and it's not really necessary. This should be solely performance-based. But it did help me cut weight, though. I thought it was fascinating what Ben Greenfeld was saying. We were talking about it before the podcast about how he would carb up and then take ketone supplements. So he had the benefit of having a lot of carbohydrates in his system but also having a lot of ketones in his system. And he said he felt like a fucking animal. Yeah, and that's pretty similar to probably how we feel right now.

And that's totally legal. Totally, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's not— And I'll tell you, like, And that's totally legal. Totally, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's not. And I'll tell you, like, when I take it, it does amazing things for me. Man, I've, so I've heard stories of people when they take this ester that they'll pull out moves like they haven't done in 10 years. Like, they recalls these moves. I've done things where, when I do it, I feel like I'm five, six years younger. I mean, it's done some fascinating things for me.

Just taking that drink that we drank. Just taking the Ester with some – digging out the trash. Pulling it out here. Yeah, ketone aid. Yeah, ketone aid, ketone Ester. Yeah, and – Looks like you're a scientist like this. Breaking bad type shit.

K-E-4. Yeah, and looks like you're a scientist like this Breaking bad type shit. Okay, the thing with it. It's extremely expensive and they're working on getting the it's it's like burnt rubber there you're working on getting the Not the cost down. I think it's thinking how much are these things? I'm not sure but I think it's like $30 a gram and that's like 40 grams. I think that's incredible I could be off on on that i'm not sure but that's quite pricey i i heard that the uh uk cycling team used it they paid like six thousand dollars for you know however much just a small amount and they used it for the when they won the tour de france actually wow that's what i heard i don't know how true it is, but I believe it. I mean this shit does amazing things for you, but Yeah, so the keto I mean again it can be used if used properly. I think it can do a lot of benefits I would recommend to all

at the combat athletes NFL players over You know that have taken concussions taking his to the, or that are over a certain age where your metabolism changes. I mean, that's where my biggest benefit was. And even TJ was talking about it. TJ Dillashaw, I was talking with him about it. His coach had him switch over because he was burning primarily carbohydrates. Especially now TJ's going to try to make 125. Yeah, and I don't know if –

he was talking to me about long before that was ever talked about. But, you know, he did some tests on him and found that he's burning all carbohydrate all the time, which can be an issue in long training sessions specifically. So he switched it up a bit. Yeah, and I don't think he's going full keto, but I think he's doing something similar to like what I'm doing where he's doing keto with, you know, some carbohydrates still and he's using the so basically like the only carbohydrates that we need as an athlete is for the workout

right we don't need them after that um you know maybe for recovery um which is again I think it's debatable but um you know carbohydrate is not a necessary substance to even live you know you could live your entire life without eating a carbohydrate and be perfectly fine yeah there's a lot of guys that are doing this carnivore diet now I've heard of this yeah my bell told me he's never felt better he's doing that shit now yeah yeah he's he's eating nothing but steak just eat steak all day no sausage or bacon well he's bacon too but it's mostly meat he's eating mostly meat mostly me so what you no vegetables a little bit every now and then but most of what he's eating is just meat see i i feel completely different when i load

up my vegetables even even a day or two i mean i don't know do you feel this i feel better yeah i'm a big fan everything i just i love uh drinking it too you I love getting real rich, green, leafy vegetable juice. And I drink a lot of kale shakes where I'll take a goddamn bushel of kale that you're never going to sit down and eat. You're never going to eat that much kale. I'll blend that motherfucker up with a giant chunk of ginger and garlic. I'll throw an apple in there and a bunch of coconut oil. And I'll fucking throw some celery in there and I'll drink it and it's I think I've seen that on YouTube you put like a pear in there too right yeah maybe a pear maybe an apple I'll mix it up

sometimes I put peaches or pineapple in there too you put the whole thing with the seeds and everything or yeah fucking throw that bitch in there and grind it up and just it's all performance it doesn't taste good it tastes like shit you know it's like I've had people try to drink it and they're like oh I can't dude I gotta try this

but dude I drink it and I feel like a fucking gorilla how much garlic you put in there a lot like four or five cloves

that's it's rough I just eat cloves now yeah I do that too I eat a lot of cloves yeah where it burns when it's going down

like yikes but you can feel it right within like an hour or two you're like damn there's something in there man especially if i'm feeling anything like i'm feeling a little sick i'm feeling funky like i'm kind of feeling a little worn down maybe it's going around i'll just chomp on some garlic you ever try chaga root no i do this i did it well i've only actually done it one time when i was sick my whole family got sick kids you've been there right yeah? Yeah kids are

Miserable all of us are laying down like we're laying around like we're in the hospital You know every couple seconds you hear a cough and where I was laying there miserable And I was the only one that did the chaga route I put it in a crock pot put you know Ten little chunks in there and I was the only one that didn't get sick or didn't stay sick very long I stayed sick for like a day, huh? Chaga yeah and what's supposed to be the benefit of this stuff ah man I don't want to butcher this google it google it yeah yeah I can't I mean it's an immune system enhancer it's like a I heard it from my friend who's a survivalist specialist expert huh and like he teaches the these classes you know where you go out and

live off the land and things like that right and um you know he gets it from like maine or canada and it's like his fungus that grows on trees and it's really really hard and they chop it off and then you can you grind it up put it in a tea or something and supposedly you know it's really good for your immune system how does it make you feel i don feel anything. I didn't feel any difference at all. I mean, I'm sitting there drinking it like it's some bullshit, but I'm drinking it anyway. You know, I'll try it. You know, my guy told me.

So, you know, and that's – obviously, that's very anecdotal, and it was like one instance. And I just got sick a couple weeks ago, and I completely forgot about it, and I was sick for like two weeks. You had a pretty significant back injury at one point, right? I had a herniated disc, yeah. How did you fix that?

I guess it's never really fixed, right? I got an epidural steroid injection first because I wanted to make the fight. It's when I was supposed to fight Condit the first time. It's like two weeks out of the fight. What is the epidural steroid? Does it relax the area and loosen the inflammation is the epidural steroid does it relax the area and loosen the inflammation a corticosteroid right yeah so it gets rid of the inflammation

it took mine um we did it on a friday this was like two weeks out of the fight um so what had happened is about four weeks out of the fight is when i originally heard it and you know i'm like i'm gonna fucking suck it up and do i think you said you heard any discs so you know what it feels like right and yeah I'm gonna suck this shit up and I'm gonna get through it and you know I couldn't do anything you barely even hit pads right um well I eventually ended up you know going to a well actually so this is part of my problem with chiropractors right so I went to a chiropractor first and he's like oh yeah you know crack it and it's all good you know and all this kind of uh garbage anyway i know i've just seen a pain specialist and he knew what it was within 30 seconds yeah anyway so i got the epidural steroid and it didn't work right away so i had to get a second one later so yeah the second time masks

the issue right does it mask the issue yeah i though. That kind of just masks the issue, right? Does it mask the issue? Yeah, I think it's. It reduces some of the inflammation, so some of the problems of it. Yeah, so that's it. I mean, he told me that. He said, you know, look, we're going to get you to the fight. This is the best way to get you to the fight. Right.

But it didn't work well enough the first time, so I ended up getting a second one, and it worked very well the second time. But then, of course course as you know having a herniated disc uh it just took years to uh correct it you know and i mean i work on it all the time now if i if i don't keep on it then i will uh feel the the effect i'll feel the issues right yeah especially in jujitsu right that's the worst i mean your lower back yeah yeah it's l5 i think did you use louis simmons uh reverse hyper did you use that machine did that of course yeah yeah of course i do tons of the reverse hyper all the time um i mean i have a whole

routine that i do pretty much after pretty much every workout just to strengthen your back? Yep. For back and hips, a lot of my personal problem was my hip mobility. And so I do the hips, abs, obliques. My psoas gets real tight, so I have to lay on a fucking kettlebell and do that thing. Yeah. My hip flexors. and my hip flexors. But I started working with a strength and conditioning coach now. Man, he works wonders for me.

Now, you have your own line of shit, and you sent us a bunch of stuff. You sent us some fucking cool hammers, and you got wheelbarrows and a bunch of different things. What was your thought process behind – what's the name of the company? Immortal Combat Equipment, ICE. And is it online, immortalcombatequipment.com? Yeah, so I have my website, immortalcombatequipment.co, and then it's on Westside Barbell. We sell on there, distribute to them, and elitefts.com. And basically the way that whole started was.

Here we go. Oh, there we go. Nice. Yeah, the way that whole thing started was with the the wheelbarrows uh louis had a a wheelbarrow that we was using all the time he's used for probably 20 years and um we i was like man i you know i could build that thing's a piece of junk he's been around here like 20 years it's falling apart and i said you know let me build one and we built one one person asked me to build one for him i said okay cool and then another person asked me to build one for him

and then i said man i mean i should just start making these and i'd had the ideas for the uh so i talked to a engineer and we just started manufacturing them and uh you know just it's sort of like a side project thing for me so something I want to get into post-fight career. Like I said, there's a few things I want to do. For one, strength and conditioning coaching, martial arts coaching, do some stuff with MusclePharm, and I want to be able to sell my equipment. The hammers, I thought of for a long time. I know you guys do the maces.

These are different than the maces. They're actually a sledgehammer. guys do the maces you know these are different than the maces they're they're actually sledge hammer right i'm sure if you swing a sledgehammer it just doesn't make sense that you go to home depot and you buy a shit ass 16 pound 20 pound sledgehammer our start at 15 pounds i'll probably make a 10 pound at some point maybe an eight or seven or something and um you know they're usually they're square they're um it doesn't make any sense, right? So we just made it specifically for swinging. For training. For training.

Good fat handle. Yeah, good fat handle. And you see also it has a ball in the end in case it slips out, so it keeps it in your hand. And it never made sense to me that I would see a 200-pound man and a 125-pound woman both swinging the same sledgehammer, especially these 200-pound men that, you know, like me. Like I swing the 30-, 35-pound sledgehammer,

which you've got to try. It's just insanely hard, but you have to have the right technique and everything. But I swing that for my workout for different things depending on— Are you going to expand your line? Yeah, absolutely. Because right now you've got the sledgehammers and the wheelbarrow. Sledgehammer, wheelbarrow, and the grip balls. Now the grip balls, what do you put them on? Like a carabiner or something like that?

And do you connect with it? Yeah, connect it to anything. Actually, if you see on that video, we connect it to the wheelbarrow and carry the wheelbarrow with them. I love doing that. Tons of things. I mean, there's just tons of options. My kids thought they were little baby kettlebells. They were doing kettlebell swings and shit.

It's pretty fun. Nice, nice, nice um i have some badass ideas man we're gonna build some really really cool stuff um you know i don't know i guess i could just say i don't i don't really care i mean you know like well you used a belt squat before right we're gonna i'm working on prototyping one right now i have actually about 10 prototypes i just haven't had the time energy to focus i kind of like almost don't want it to grow too fast because like i'm still fighting it's something i want to work on after fighting and uh but basically we do a belt squat that you can walk with so it's just gonna have wheels and you just walk around anywhere with it and you could sort of um you know even like you know clinch with someone away which i mean you can do tons

of things like that with the Westside belt squat they already have and there is other belt squats that can do similar things. Yeah, the Westside one, they were telling me you could hit pads with it. For sure. You could have somebody on the platform. Which I do. Which I do. I love that thing. Just the way it loads up your hips like that. One of the things

I think you'd probably really like, we're going to build and they have one at Westside. You may have seen it when you went there, the Forrest treadmill. Yes. The one at Westside, I mean, it's just a basic treadmill. If you buy one off Woodway or whatever, they're like $3,000, $4,000, I think even like $5,000 or $6,000.

I'm going to build one you can sell for like $500, $600. You just put it in your garage, whatever. You don't need to buy a five thousand dollar woodway treadmill right why did you decide to start out with hammers and wheel barrels well the hammers i wanted for myself uh is that something you use all the time absolutely it's my probably my favorite exercise i mean of course every exercise is a tool right and you know you don't use a socket wrench on a screw right so you know we have a there's a million different exercises that we do for mma everybody asks me what do you do like you name it i'll probably do it right uh my favorite hammers are probably my favorite thing

though um if there's if i just had to pick one thing and say this is what you need to do um i mean the dynamic strength that builds is insane the explosiveness the, the core strength, the shoulder strength, the grip strength. When did you start doing this? Four or five years ago. Because I remember, you know, back in the day, George Foreman used to chop wood. I remember thinking, like, why are they chopping? Yeah, I was like, why are they chopping wood? Marciano was legendary for doing it.

Yeah. Or not legendary. I mean, he's legendary for other things. Right. He did a lot. Yeah. Yeah, so we actually built a 45 and a 50 pound hammer too which uh became a really good door stopper too heavy yeah so we maxed out we stopped at 35 but if anybody

ever would want one we can get one of those and francis i know right that's a great idea i'd like to see him do it yeah yeah i mean if you just think about the way the hammer swings and everything, I mean, there's a lot of different ways you can do it. There's a lot of different exercises you can do with them. I mean, they're just – I think they're the most amazing tool there is for MMA. I've never used one. Really? Yeah.

Even like a Home Depot sledgehammer or nothing? Nope. Never swung them. No. I mean, it'll build your endurance up right away. One thing that I love about the endurance part of it is you'll sit there and swing it and like your body's gonna like when your body gets so tired as long as you have decent techniques your body will get so tired you can still keep going though like because it's a lot of momentum you know what I mean but you can keep going with the momentum right yeah so no matter how tired you are now you sent me some so i'll start doing it here what size tire should

i get a tractor tire yeah what do you get yeah just tractor tire where do you get one of those um i know i just go to the uh you could use a regular tire whatever like i go to like the uh you can get it for free usually they'll give them to you because they just burn them okay you know so they have to like dispose of like a tire shop tire shop yeah junk tire shop yeah Like the, you can get them for free. Usually they'll give them to you because they just burn them. Oh, okay. You know, so they have to like dispose of them. Like a tire shop. Tire shop. Yeah, junk tire shop, yeah.

Go to a tire shop. Give me a big-ass tire, bitch. Yeah, that's what I do. I mean, sometimes like they might give you like a regular tire also, you know, and you just like bolt it together, you know, drill a hole and bolt two of them together and you got it. Right. You can do that way too. Is that what you do you put stack them that's what um if i've had to do that before where the tire shop wouldn't didn't have a big tractor tire and i just get sick

of looking for one sometimes they're hard to find like farmers will have them i don't know about california they could be completely different out here so you know i mean you can buy like off rogue or whatever they have things that you hit with the hammers. Oh, really? Rogue has things other than a tire? Yeah, they have an actual... If you've ever seen the CrossFit games, they do the game, I don't know, game, whatever it is,

CrossFit competition thing. It's like a big piece of rubber, and they have to move it from one side to the other, like 10 yards or something. They have to hit it with the hammer. Oh, okay. But they're hammers, so it's like Rogue makes a hammer. Oh, there it is. So it's like a side to the other, like 10 yards or something. They have to hit it with the hammer. Oh. Yeah. But they're hammers. So it's like Rogue makes a hammer.

Oh, there it is. So it's like a big hunk of rubber. Yeah. Yeah. Those are great. Oh, okay. So like Rogue makes a hammer, right, that's adjustable weight too.

But there's, you unbolt it and pour BBs into it. Oh. That's ridiculous, right? Like who's actually going to do that? And they have fucking BBs everywhere, all this kind of shit. So that's why, you know, I was why I was like, I go to Westside. I have a fucking Dave Hoff is there, 300, the strongest man in history.

I'm like, if he's going to swing a hammer, it's not going to be a fucking 16-pound hammer. He'll do that with his one-handed. So I wanted to build something that anybody could use. And then the wheelbarrow, we had to put where it can hold. I've had over 1,000 pounds on it at Westside. Jesus. I can't lift 1,000 pounds on it, but we put over 1,000 pounds on there.

We have different handles, so that's what I changed. So Louie's was just one handle. So we have D handles, so you can grip it like this, do a clean, press, things like that. We have a prowler, so it's got handles coming up, things like that we have um like a turn it's like a prowler you know so it's got handles coming up things like that and just do laps with it you just you do laps i mean like i say you use like a prowler you can do uh cleans uh overhead presses i mean there's a million different things you can do with it so when you're slamming when you're doing a hammer workout you're slamming a tire like where are you feeling it most your back your legs you know uh everywhere

out and you're slamming a tire, like where are you feeling it most? Your back? Your legs? You know. Everywhere? Yeah. Usually not the legs so much. You know, that's more just, you're just kind of stabilizing with your legs.

But a lot of times it depends on your weakness too, right? Some people feel it more in their shoulders. I usually feel it more in my grip. You know, because, but there's a few different ways you can do it too. So like if I want to feel it more in my grip, I'll a slam where i try to stop it okay right so you know at the very end at the very end as soon as it hits because the tire is going to bounce it back and i'll try to stop it um but a lot of times i feel it more in the core right um and sometimes i do like you know over the head like this boom you know bring it down that way and feel way more in the core do you ever try to swing it sideways yeah i'm not uh quite as fond on that.

I just, it gets a little dangerous. Right. I think you kind of, which I personally, I would do it, like I wouldn't recommend other people do it unless they've been swinging hammers for a while. Right, right. I remember, I've just seen people do stupid things. Now, what other kind of shit do you do for strength and conditioning?

You name it. That's what I was going to say, you know. I mean, we follow the Westside conjugate system, so it's really things change all the time. I mean, it depends on if it's general, specific. So I always add in a third one. There's GPP, general physical preparation. There's SPP, which is specific physical preparation. And then I add in personally my own, which uh rspp which is what i call like

the hammers like the wheelbarrow would be more the war i call it the war wagon is more uh general right so it's just gonna build general strength he's gonna bring your endurance up your max capacity up things like that the uh you know getting on the mats and you know doing 20 double legs that's spp like very specific right the something like a hammer or maybe a lot of band type stuff like maybe shooting double legs with a band on or something I call that RSPP which is like replicated specific physical preparation so you know I could break down all three of these and just go on forever I mean with when you're in the GPP you're gonna again like build up your max capacity you're gonna going to build up your strength. You want to build up your bone density,

your ligament strength, your tendon strength. Of course, like any weaknesses, I'm big on the neck, back and posterior chain, right? They say the front's for show, the back's for go. So have you ever used the iron neck? Oh yeah. Yep. We use it all the time. I love that. Yeah. I love that thing. Isn't that thing amazing? What a genius invention. I know, right? I think it's really uncomfortable, but. Yeah, I got one of those out here. Yeah, I love it.

Nice. I like it. I got one at home, too. To be honest, I think clenching does more than anything else, man, for neck strength. Like, my neck just gets more sore doing that than anything else. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, so that's.

It's more sore doing that than anything else. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. So that's using my friends at Westside. They do a lot where they'll put a band on the war wagon and then carry it at the same time. Oh, wow. So it's pulling the neck while you're – Oh, I like that.

And you have to walk. So it's like a very dynamic workout at the same time. So your grip's giving out. Your traps start giving out. What kind of harness are they putting on their head? Just like, you know, the leather boxer type right yeah and uh you know just with a chain and then a band and so you're having to hold this while you're walking makes it much more dynamic so i like that they come up with some crazy shit there yeah yeah well if you go to the iron neck

instagram page they do a lot of crazy shit with the iron neck on. Like a lot of medicine ball shit, a lot of slams while you're pulled back so you're on full resistance with the band. You're moving your head, you're rotating, slamming the ball to the right and the left. I'll have to check that out. I've never checked out their Instagram. But I try to stay off Instagram

personally. Why do you do that? Man, for one, Instagram to me is the most mindless thing in the world, right? Just looking at pictures over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Yeah. And half the time you don't even read the breakdown, the captions. So to me, it's, it's really social media is first off is pretty dumbed down, like read

a fucking book. Right. And then now you have something that's not even, uh, you know, it's not even writing. Like it's just pictures. Like, you know, like the, the, the people that are like, Oh, does that book have any pictures? Well, I'm not going to read it or something, you know? So to me, and, and I also, I I'm a big believer that, uh, and you know, what goes in your brain, in your mind, what you let in, it needs to be very controlled. You need to be very specific and careful about what you let in.

And you never know what you're going to come across on there. So it could be something toxic that could be bad. Right, especially if you're reading comments, right? Absolutely. Yeah, it gets way worse. And I use it. I mean, I'm on there a lot, but, you know, I use it. I like to – I remember back in the day when I was coming up and, you know, I would dream of talking to a UFC fighter, right?

Right, right. So I use it to interact with my fans, right, because I want to give some kids that experience. Right, right. I think it's a very powerful tool for that. Oh, yeah, that's a powerful thing for a young guy coming up, you know, to be able to talk to Matt Brown. And you actually respond to him and say, good luck.

You're like, holy shit. Yeah, I mean, I probably do it maybe even more than I should. Like, I mean, I answer, like, complete questions sometimes. You know, like people ask me the wildest questions, you know, and I'll give them complete responses. And I find that 90% of the time they they're like, oh, cool, man. I'm glad you responded. And then they forget about it most likely, right?

Yeah. But, you know, if I can touch just a few people, man, I mean that's really what the whole thing's about. Do you have a YouTube channel? No, but I probably will. That's maybe a good move for you because you've got so much information in your head. Like just talking to you before the podcast, you're rattling off these different training modalities and different recovery methods and techniques and shit like that.

Matt Brown's got a lot of information in his head. Yeah, I'm not dumb. I might be a savage, but I mean. It's funny how people think those things are mutually exclusive. Absolutely, yeah. Like if you're a savage, you've got to be stupid. Absolutely. exclusive absolutely yeah like if you're if you're a savage you got to be stupid absolutely and my thing is my savageness i approach all things with that savage intent right so when i

like if i'm into a book like i'm reading a badass book right now and what is it uh anti-fragile what is that um i'm trying to remember the name of the author but uh it's on my kindle and uh so if you think of the there's no term there's no definition of fragility or anti-fragile right so he came up with this term he wrote the book uh the black swan also and nassim nicholas oh i've heard of that guy he has a very interesting way of writing. And so he really digs deep into this concept of anti-fragility where it's not necessarily robustness or things like this. God, I hate it because I hate trying to re-explain because I butcher shit. I feel like I don't give it justice.

But, you know, I'm only to re-explain because I butcher shit. I feel like I don't give it justice. But I'm only halfway through the book. But like I said, I've really attacked it with that savage sort of mindset. But it's a very, very long book. Well, it's basically like he makes the case that fragility is good, right? And it creates anti-fragility. He makes the case that anti-fragility is good, right? And not necessarily. Like I said, I feel like I'm just butchering it, man.

Just read the book. It's a fucking good book. But when he says about when you're saying fragility, do you mean fragility in terms of your mindset, in terms of just? So he's an economic guy. So he's really, I think what he's getting economic guy uh-huh um so he's really i think he i think what he's getting at again i'm only half like halfway through the book but i think really what he's getting at is more economic and political is kind of his uh long-term thing

but he uses a lot of examples uh and basically from what i've gathered so far it's basically like how stress induces a stress response which which, which induces strength and which, which is the closest thing I would say is to anti-fragility is strength. Right. And how anti-fragility would make the world a better place more or less. And so as a response to stress, like training. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, he even uses that example, you know, how, how we tear our muscles down to build them up. That's the entire purpose. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, um, again, I'm only halfway through, man. I don't want to butcher it, you know, it's a fucking great book, but like I said, I, I mean, it's a long, long, very long book and it's sort of, uh, um, he kind of digs into all

these different subjects on it, even though it's really like, he could probably sum it up in about a quarter of the book. But I was just saying, I just attack it like that, man. Like, for instance, Super Training. You know this book, right? I've heard of it. I haven't read it, though. Well, it's probably the most difficult-to-read book I've ever read. And I've read it probably four or five times now.

What's so difficult about it?'s just ultra ultra scientific and it's written by Mel Siff and Virgo Shansky who's the inventor of plyometrics or the the founder of plyometrics in the Russians and Mel Siff is a biomechanical engineer and the two of them came together and you know this super training is basically like the Bible of them came together and you know this super training is basically like the bible of um of strength and conditioning books altogether right it's it's the original strength conditioning book um i mean there's also like science and practice of strength training there's a science of sports training there's a lot of really good books but super training is like the just the pioneer the the premier book right and it's all very very scientific and a lot

of the times man i'll have to read the same paragraph like four times you know and i've read the book like four times and and i still i'm going through the paragraph like what the fuck man what is he talking about this son of a bitch so anyway so like the you know the point is like i just attack it like that right right, you know and I think there's other things. I think a lot of people Again, like it's all about inspiring others, right? And I think a lot of people could learn a lot from that and that's what I try to do in my fights I try to inspire people. I want my kids to be that way. I want I Want I think it could bring the world up that way man people find something they want and it's actually like a goddamn savage

it could bring the world up that way, man. People find something they want, and it's actually like a goddamn savage. Well, when people see someone that does really go for it, it does inspire them to go for it too. They see the excitement in it, and they see the response that other people have to that excitement, and it just makes them want to up their own life performance in a lot of various ways, you know, not just in fighting, but they might want to up their performance from watching you fight

in whatever the fuck they're doing in life. And that's, to me, that means more than anything else. That's what a lot of people talk about the meaning of life. I think I got to figure it out. I mean, I think the meaning of life is to give. I think that's, if you look in nature, I know you're a big nature buff. I mean, that's what everything exists in nature to do. That's what a tree grows fruit to give more fruit, right?

This is the natural process of the world. And humans, a human animal has become too analytical to figure that out, right? We think the meaning of life is all these other things because we think about other things. But really our entire purpose is to give. I think there's a lot of purposes in life, but I think that is one of them for sure. I think giving is definitely, it gives you a sense of meaning, and when you help other people, you feel better. That's one thing that I think people are missing out on.

They think that it should be all about themselves, and I'm just about succeeding and getting by on my own. Well, even what you just said gives you a sense of meaning or makes you feel better. So you brought it back to yourself, right? Right. And that's what I think is human nature, and that's easy. But I try to get past that where it's not about me. It's not about how i feel about it so it's about just giving um you know i'm completely um selfless that's a great way to look at it the way i

describe it that way though is to enlighten people to this idea that i think not enlighten people but just express my own perspective that i think people spend too much time thinking about what benefits them and that they don't recognize that the more you benefit other people that is really what benefits not just those other people but you as well and that they think of like helping people like yeah it'd be good to help people but that's gonna fuck me up because then i'm gonna spend less time on my own self but it's not really the case you actually enhance your own experience in life by helping other people as we were talking about before the podcast right the abundance mentality yes and that is uh specifically the abundance mentality yeah no i'm i'm a gigantic believer in generosity and abundance mentality, and I'm a fucking ferocious opponent of famine thinking.

I think that famine mentality, it fucks people up so hard. You get closed up. You get ultra protective. I just think that's a terrible way to live your life, and you're living your life with fear. And the hard part is implementing it, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I can see you talk about it all day.

Like, I don't give enough to, you know what I mean? I don't give enough away, that's for sure. I've thought about sometimes, like, I think about the crazy shit sometimes, and I was like, I think the ultimate, like, coolest thing in life. So I have to have money, like, for my kids, unfortunately, right? Not unfortunate, but. Right. Not unfortunate, but right. Just necessity.

Yeah. Necessity. Like that's what the money is about. I feel like if I didn't have kids, I would just give literally every dime away, start from bottom and see how many times, because you know, so there's like certain,

uh, uh, qualities in people that they're going to succeed no matter what. Right. And I want to see like, if I have those qualities, right? So I want to give everything away. Well, I'll fix that right now.

You definitely do. Listen, man, you can do whatever the fuck you want in this life, but I feel like a guy like you in particular, especially right now when you're on this fighting journey and you're still on it, I think what you give the most is through the best possible performance that you give and when you have these wild crazy performances like the diego sanchez fight that shit inspires the fuck out of people i mean how many people watch that fight and

and just wanted to go run mountains and just get crazy it's just man that's cool you bring that up because i mean i never even thought of it that way. I always see it, again, I always bring it back to myself, and I see it as an expression of my own art of myself. You're a public performer. You're not just an athlete. You're not just a fighter, but you're also a public performer and an inspirational figure. And when you are doing your best, that gives a lot to people.

How many people have watched great athletic performances and it's given them the fuel and the inspiration to do great things in their own life? That's cool you say that. Man, that might inspire me to fight a little longer. You were ready to retire after the Diego fight. That was supposed to be your

swan song. Was it just too sweet? No, no, no. It had nothing to do with the performance actually uh this you know so i think when we started the podcast i was kind of talking about the why and the how a little bit right and this is where i think i got a little confused was i i think um i mean for one i was i was questioning a lot of things i got knocked out by cowboy viciously um the worst i've never been knocked out of my life i mean and it wasn't too long after i just got dropped hard by ellenberger which was the first time my

life had ever been dropped in sparring or anything i'd never uh been dropped um so i started just kind of questioning you know what uh what am i doing okay well how and the first thing i went to was how do i not make that happen again? So that gets very exhausting when you're just like how, how, how, right? Right. And I think through the Diego camp, because, again, I announced retirement long, you know, very early in the camp, like 12 weeks out or something like that. Through the camp, man, everything went so well. I focused more on my own mind and a lot of these things we're

talking about. And I started getting back into the why. And I started bringing a lot more clarity to that side of things. Now I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. I feel much more comfortable. And now it doesn't matter on the performance anymore. Now it's about truly going out there and performing the best that I can. And then the second part of the whole thing is that, you know, I was very scared of retirement. I was very, very nervous to be thinking, like, what am I going to do? You know, like, how am I going to feed my kids? And fortunately, now, you know, I was able to, I realized once I announced it and then after the fight i mean just a plethora of of of opportunities and uh muscle farm's probably been my best opportunity and that's why um you know i

bring them up a lot you know because they've helped me so much and and i think we're going to do uh amazing things there whether i retire or not and i think it's going to be a big beautiful thing um what do you do for them specifically um So I'm kind of tasked with building the fight team and bringing the athletes and communicating with athletes and just making it a solid program there. Whether I'm the coach or not, it doesn't even matter. But I want to make it a great program and make sure that the facility is being used properly and bringing in different athletes.

That'll be kind of the first step. Beyond that, the opportunities are endless. I can do a lot of different things with it. Was it immediately after the Diego Sanchez fight? Because I talked to you in Denver. When you came to my show at the Belco, I called you up. We were talking, and you said, I'm not really sure I'm done. And I was like, what's going on, man? So I don't remember the exact date of that, but that was probably, you know, I said the retirement, and then again, like the camp just started going amazing.

And again, the why came back, man. I knew why I was doing what I was doing. I was enjoying my time at the gym again when weren't you enjoying it um I've there's been a lot of times I mean what do you think you know my man I've been around and I've had a lot of different uh coaches and that's my that's my biggest if I had a regret in my career is that i wasn't as loyal to one sort of system as i should have been i and i have a term for it now i call it the unicorn fallacy where you're constantly chasing the unicorn that doesn't exist right i'm or uh some people i've heard other people call like the greener grass syndrome you know the grass isn't always greener on their side right

um and that would if i had a complaint about myself or if you want to call it a regret like that's my problem. I'm always like, dude, I just need to go over here and I'll get better because I'm always searching that how, right? And I forgot the why. So, again, I think a lot of fighters probably also go through this where, I mean, it's hard what we do. There's a lot of pressure on our shoulders.

There's a lot of, especially with a family. I got three kids, you know. It's like, I mean, I got knocked out in front of my three kids. Like, they were at the fight, you know what I mean? Like, I had a, I think they were. I don't even remember because I was fucking knocked out, you know. Like, I don't remember anything until I was waking up at the hospital, you know, and Dwayne was sitting there, you know what I mean? So, like, I mean, looking back, like, I don't even anything until I was waking up at the hospital and Dwayne was sitting there.

Looking back, I don't even remember all this stuff. It's funny because I've seen videos. I'm raising Cowboy's hand. I don't even remember seeing that. Somebody told me that we were talking backstage. I've seen a video, I should say, of us talking backstage. I don't remember none of it. So things like that make you start questioning.

Like, dude, is this shit worth it? Right, right. I mean, you know, and just a lot of internal struggles, right? And again, you know, the camp I had with Diego, man, everything, just all the pieces fell into place. And I was like, dude, if I can do this every time, like, I could do this for a long time, and I could smash a lot of people. So that's where you're at right now. Yeah. So you were reinvigorated reinvigorated that's interesting so this long career so many great fights and you still you're still like fine in your place i think i'm fucking hungrier than i ever was wow man i i was like because of like a lot of stuff we're talking about today it just

wasn't clear you know i mean it was just a scatterbrain like again it was all about the how you know like I was I think I was like uh kind of hyper focused on that like how do I get stronger how do I get faster how do I throw a better punch how do I you know analyze this guy and how do I beat him and you know it's just constant how and then you forget like why are you doing this anyway, right? You know the some and then I mean I said it's just a it's not an easy sport. Anyway, I mean, it's probably the hardest sport existed Yeah, I don't think there's anything harder. Yeah, I can't imagine what's harder other than actual war Yeah, right. I mean maybe police officer firemen actual war. Mm-hmm Fucking trauma surgeon even them. I mean, you know, actual war, fucking trauma surgeon.

Even them. I mean, it's harder in different ways. Yeah, harder in different ways. Yeah, it's one of the most pressure-filled athletic opportunities that a person can ever be involved in. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, you know, the hard thing is this is all I've done. I'm all in, you all in from the beginning.

I never gave myself an out. And I think that's important to do also. A lot of the guys that have outs, I watch Shark Tank all the time, and you see these guys, if they have an out, Kevin O'Leary or whatever is like, fuck you. It's like rich kids don't grow up to be world championship fighters. Except for BJ Penn. Yeah, right?

He's just a fucking animal. But he grew up in Hawaii. Hawaii is a different place. You're stuck on an island with a bunch of motherfuckers who want to kick your ass. It's do or die in Hawaii. Right, right. Hawaii is an underappreciated place for tough motherfuckers. I have to go there.

My wife wants to go there. Never been? I love it. I went there once. I'd live there. I was in like Waikiki the whole time. I'd live on the big island. Yeah? Fuck yeah. I could live there. My wife wants to go there. Never been? I love it. I went there once. I'd live there. I was in like Waikiki the whole time. I'd live on the big island. Yeah?

Fuck yeah. I could live there. Yeah. You wouldn't get an island, what do you call it, island sick? Nope. If I did, I'd get on a plane. People are awesome there, man. It's just a different, more relaxed, more, I don't know, just more chill.

They say Costa Rica is the place to go. Costa Rica is pretty badass. They say it's the best place to retire. Yeah? That's what I've heard because it's like $1,000 a month you can live well or something. Yeah, Mel Gibson's got a fat spread there. He's telling me he's got like 500 acres down there. Nice.

That was a cool podcast with Mel Gibson. He's an interesting cat, huh? Here's my impression of Mel Gibson. He just kept clicking the fucking pen. He just kept clicking the pen and I didn't want to say anything i was like what do i say stop clicking the pen man i was i was there i went to hear like i kind of want to hear you interview him a little bit it was like all the stem cell guy well he wanted to come on and talk about stem cells that's really what he wanted to talk about and so i honored that i said all right man you know that's what you want to talk about you think he's your biggest guest you ever had uh it's pretty fucking famous james

hatfield he's pretty fucking famous too i mean i don't know they're up there who else alex jones he's the biggest the most downloads alex beat everybody by a fuckload yeah man it was interesting so here's my theory on alex jones just if you want to go there okay i love going there so i think he's a government plot he's not i'll tell you that for sure i've known him forever i've known alex since 1998 he's not but he couldn't he couldn't tell you because you would tell everybody he's not i've hung out with that just a crazy dude. He couldn't tell you because you would tell everybody. He's not. I've hung out with that guy.

I get high with him. Drunk with him. He's a fun dude. He is a guy who started out as a guy who was against the president. He was against George W. Bush. Okay. When W. Bush, I don't even think he was, he was running for president at the time, right? Or was he?

When did Bush become? No, Clinton was president. Yeah, Clinton was president. George W. was the governor of Texas. And he was getting arrested for protesting against them, protesting against the global elitists and all these different things. He didn't really become a supporter of any form of government until Trump. I mean, Trump is like the first guy, and he may or may not be getting played by Trump,

where Trump's his buddy. I mean, Trump is a slick guy in terms of how he cultivates influence. He's an anomaly for sure. He's an interesting character in a lot of ways. I mean, if it wasn't... Okay, so shoot down my theory completely. It's just a theory. I don't promulgate it. It's, if it wasn't... Okay, so shoot down my theory completely. It's just a theory.

I don't promulgate it. It's factoring. But I've always thought that Alex Jones was built by the government to make conspiracy theorists look like loons. He didn't used to make them look like loons. Really? No, no. He was much more...

He started with 9-11, though, right? No. No, Alex was around way before 9-11. He started with 9-11, though, right? No. No, Alex was around way before 9-11. He started with Waco. But that's when he came to prominence, right? Because he was the first to kind of... No, even before then, man. But nobody cared about him before then.

He was on AM radio before then. Right. But he's been around forever. I mean, like I said, I met him in 98. Well, I'm glad I'm wrong, then. I met him in 98, so it was several years before 2001. And he was doing the same shit back then. Nice.

I mean, he's always been around doing that. He's right about a lot of shit, and that's what's so confusing. He is absolutely right about what they call agent provocateurs, where the government will send in people. If they have a peaceful protest, it's very inconvenient for them, like the WTO. He did this whole video about how the WTO, was that in Vancouver or Seattle? Where was the WTO? I forget where it was. It was somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. I'm confused.

But I'm not confused about the story. So what happened was they had these peaceful protests against the World Trade Organization, and it was very inconvenient because all these world leaders were coming to this area for this meeting. So what happened was they had these peaceful protests against the World Trade Organization. And it was very inconvenient because all these world leaders were coming to this area for this meeting. And they sent in government agents that were dressed with black ski masks and government-issue boots. And these people started smashing windows and lighting things on fire. They turned into a violent protest, which enabled the police to close in and shut down the protest. WTO protest, where did it say?

Alex Jones Police State 2, the takeover. Seattle? Yeah, it was Seattle. Okay. So they, this is, but this is a real tactic that governments and intelligence agencies use. They have a peaceful protest, and then they have these people, like these guys, dressed in black ski masks they start tipping over newspapers. It doesn't even make any sense. So this is to confirm that they're government agents. Meanwhile these guys have government issue boots. No, it

goes further. So these guys all got together at the end and they were cordoned off into a building and then they were ultimately released. They were never charged. They were never arrested. I mean, the whole thing is incredibly fascinating. And some of them have been identified as government agents, and Alex can get way more into detail about it. That's why I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so to speak. But the one thing I always say is I don't put anything past our government.

There's absolutely been conspiracies that are real. For sure. Whether it's the Gulf of Tonkin incident, whether it's Operation Northwoods. I'm sure there's been a bunch that we don't know about. I believe that the government assassinated or somebody assassinated JFK. I don't think it was Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone. I think it's very possible lee harvey oswald was a part of it but i know too much about bullets to think that that fucking bullet went through two people and wound up on connelly's gurney in the hospital looking pristine cut the shit that's all i don't think

that's real at all nice nice i've. I've seen the Zapruder film. I've read several books on the story. I think it's very convenient to lump all that into one guy with one bullet. I think it's horse shit. And I think they probably killed him. All right. See, I always look into it a little bit, you know, and then I'm like, you know what? The government probably did this shit, whatever.

They probably did a lot of shit. They probably did a lot of shit that we don't know about, that we're not aware of. But this is how governments work. They've always worked like that. I say the smart criminals go to politics, the dumb criminals go to jail. Right. There's a lot of that.

Definitely a lot of that. Or, you know, the most criminally insane people in this world are attracted to politics. I think what's going to fix human beings, and this is a radical idea, but I really think the same thing that's going to fix human beings is what is, in a lot of ways, disrupting the standards of our culture right now with the Internet. I think technology is going to fix human beings. Because I think what technology is going to do is eventually there's going to be a way to absolutely detect whether or not someone's telling the truth.

I think it's inevitable. I think as we find out- That'll fuck up a lot of people's lives. It's going to fuck up a lot of people's lives and it's going to enhance most of our lives. And I think people like you and people like me who tell the truth, it's going to be very good for you. Because I think when you lie, it doesn't just fuck up the person that you're lying to. I think it fucks you up. I think it fucks up discourse.

It fucks up culture. I think it fucks up human beings. It fucks up our communities. It's an anomaly it's a thing that people have been able to figure out how to do where you've been able to say things that aren't accurate to convince someone of a reality that doesn't exist i guess where i think it gets hard though is the politic politicians specifically are so good at not really lying but like you know they're right on that gray area where they're not really lying to you but they're not that's but that's also because you can lie

so like a guy like trump who's been busted lying a million times and still is an office probably every president yes for sure i don't think he's sure obama's been busted lying too i don't think he's unique in that and that's well he's unique in his propensity for it. He loves it. He's been lying forever. But I think that without a doubt, there's going to be a time in the future, whether it's in our lifetimes or after,

where they develop technology that's going to absolutely allow you to detect whether or not someone's telling the truth. That's intense. I think it's going to be the future. When think when that happens people are just not going to accept all the shit that we've accepted for so many years they could be an app on the phone i think it's probably going to be something that you wear in your body i think we're real close to that i think we're real close to embedded chips that you wear in your body and i think those chips are probably

going to interface wirelessly and you're just going to be able to read thoughts and ideas that come from people that are going to come in probably a new language. I think we're going to be able to develop a universal language. Like don't a lot of religious people say it's the mark of the beast, right? Oh, that's, isn't that like a birthmark or some shit? Like what are the religious people saying? Like a chip inside your body?

So I was raised in an ultra religious thing, environment, right? My mom was, it was extremely religious. Did they talk in tongues? They probably thought they did or something. No, they, you know, they're very fundamental. You know, my brother could go way deeper into what they were about I never even paid attention but I remember them talking

about like the mark of the beast and they were like it's going to be something implanted in you and if you take it then you're going to hell and if you don't take it or something like that maybe they're just planning ahead they want to keep lying we got to plan ahead

these chips are coming. They were certainly lying to me. I think there's going to be a language, a universal language, that they figure out how to teach to children. That would be fascinating. Starting with children because children learn languages very easily. And if they develop a universal language that is somehow or another either translated through computers.

Because, you know, they have a thing now, these Google earbuds that you use with a pixel 2 phone so if you were talking to me in spanish i would hear the translation what you said in english in my ears that's fucking amazing when i saw that i was like how is nobody noticing that this is step one this is step one of a universal language yeah the translation like to english is fascinating but i think ultimately we're going to be able to figure out how to communicate with everybody with a new language and this this is this not hard to do i mean it's obviously not easy but it's not impossible to develop a new

language like a universal language that's accepted by everybody yeah yeah i used, I used to, I have a Brazilian friend that comes up to my house sometimes and we put the Google Translate thing just right in between us. And you can talk and it detects which language and says it. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

That's crazy, man. So it knows which language. It'll know who's talking without even, you don't have earphones or nothing. It'll just say it out loud. Yeah. That's amazing.

I mean, it's not 100% accurate. Sometimes you have to play around. So I think this is one step without even, you don't have earphones or nothing. It'll just say it out loud. That's amazing. I mean, it's not 100% accurate. Sometimes you have to play around. So I think this is one step, and then I think the next step is going to be some sort of a way to detect whether or not people are lying. And then another step is going to be more enhanced communication. And then another step after that is going to be some sort of telekinetic or some sort of communication without verbalizing,

without words. Fuck. I think all that's coming. I'll just be out in the woods. Yeah, you all do your thing. I'm going to hang out out here. It might be the best way to live. That's how I want to live.

My wife is more of a city person. Sort of. I mean. Got to get a weekend spot in Evergreen or something. Dude, I want to. Yeah. I'm supposed to do a thing with, what's his name, Denver Work. Oh, yeah.

The Navy SEAL. He's doing a campfire thing up there. I was supposed to do that in the next couple weeks. I was just chatting with him yesterday. We were texting each other. About the campfire thing? No, he's going to come on and do the podcast whenever he's in town. We're just trying to figure out a time.

Yeah, I was texting with him on Twitter. He's doing, I guess it's called like a campfire session so you go out there and hang out this campfire and he just tells stories yeah he's a fascinating guy he's been on my friend steve's television show uh meat eater okay he's been on that yeah he's a fascinating intense guy nice yeah yeah i wanted to bring my kids but i I don't know. He's a great guy. I mean, I'm sure you could bring your kids, but I think any time you could get a place where you get away, where you can get to nature, just see the real stars at night

and have a campfire, it's just reinvigorating. It's just great for you. Man, did you see the eclipse? No. You didn't do that thing? I looked a little bit in my backyard, but I almost burned my eyes. I don't have the right goggles. I tried put two sunglasses on the shelves like that don't work that was like the probably the the deepest nature well my wife her family's up in Vermont so we get

some pretty deep nature up there but but we were up in this place in Wyoming where I mean there was a million people there that weekend but I don't think you know there's probably not a hundred people within you know a hundred miles right right right and uh man that was the first time i ever looked up in the sky i could see the milky way though oh you know what you got to do go to if you go to hawaii you got to plan it for when there's no moon and go to the keck observatory there's a keck observatory on the big island fuck man because the big island designed, they have the lighting system. Yeah, it is darker, but they have the lighting system designed in the Big Island to have diffused lighting on the street lamps.

What that means is that the light doesn't disperse into the sky. Yeah. And so when you go up to the Keck Observatory, man, you see everything. It blew me away. I saw it. Yeah, that's what it looks like. Like legitimately what it looks like. Like you go up there and you look up and you're like, holy shit.

Because it's so high. I think it's 13,000 feet above sea level. Oh, wow. You go up there and- I didn't know they had mountains that big up there. Oh, yeah, they do on the Big Island. The Big Island has- It's like a different world.

They have a bunch of different ecosystems up there. They have a rainforest. They have a desert. They ecosystems up there. They have a rainforest. They have a desert. They have mountain ranges. They have lava. But it changed my life, and I'm not bullshitting. It's like a psychedelic experience. When I went up there and saw the stars like that, I was like, oh, I don't even.

I mean, if there's something to make you feel like a tiny fucking speck. Yeah. You feel like you're on a spaceship. You feel like you're on a spaceship flying through the universe. That's how I felt when I was in Wyoming. Yeah. It just, you. I mean, and that eclipse obviously blew me away too.

You don't realize how many stars are up there and how much our streetlights are fucking us over. Because it's changing the way you view the cosmos itself. It's changing your relationship that you have with infinity, with the universe. I mean, it's changing it because it's dulling our perceptions by limiting all of this spectacular light and these stars that we, the Milky Way. Like this whole thing, there's a reason why it gives you this sense of awe. Like it's a perspective enhancer. It gives you this view of something that's impossibly beautiful and also

impossibly huge and it just puts it all in perspective i think i mean that's why people are so cocky in cities they're just they're missing that they're missing this re this reality check and the weird part is like that's small yeah right like this is actually the milky way is like a small galaxy right yeah it's nothing, it's one of hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe Yeah, and there's not aliens Well I was talking and I did Neil deGrasse Tyson's TV show a couple of days ago And he was telling me that it's the most likely scenario is that we live in multiverses and that our universe Which is impossibly large is one of an infinite number of universes

That are all in these bubbles. Can you explain that? Nope. He said it to me, and I was like, wait, what? I mean, you kind of got to take his word, right? Googled it, and this is images that pop up. You kind of got to just trust him on that one, right? Well, whenever he says something, I kind of got's what i mean like you're the expert bro anytime i talk to astrophysicists i just

try to probe as much as possible and just trust them yeah you can't argue with them about it but the idea is that like how we have a planet and the planet's part of a solar system and the solar system is a part of a galaxy and the galaxy is a part of the universe the universe is a part of a multiverse and then it's just as there's a fractal nature to it all and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and the idea that's multiverse is that there's infinite number of different universes not if you say that's uh you know theoretically the most likely or that's there's some sort of evidence or there's some some reason to believe it outside. Because my biggest thing is we have all these theories for all this shit.

Big bang, God, whatever, however far the universe is. But can our minds really even wrap around what the reality probably actually is? Our minds may not even be able to conceive the reality of this. You know what I mean? It may be beyond our imagination. We, our imagination is kind of limited to the things that we're supposed to be experiencing what we're here. You know,

we could abstractly think about things outside of that. But even when someone says to you like a hundred billion stars, you're like, wow, it's a lot. But that number is not even getting in my head. Even after I've said it, like,

I don't know what that means. What does that even mean? They say there's more stars than grains of sand on the earth. I mean, that's what blows me away. I mean, you just look at a jar of sand. Yeah, those are giant balls of fire, maybe more than a million times bigger than Earth, just floating in the sky. So we could see at the eclipse, they had a little observatory,

like all the colleges and stuff were there where we were at. And you could see, you come back in like 10 minutes, and every 10 minutes, come back and look through this one telescope, and you could see a star going around a star. Wow.

That was fucking cool. Yeah, I read something yesterday that Pluto is so far away that when the time they discovered it in 1930, it still hasn't made a complete orbit around the sun. Oh, shit. How long does it take to orbit? I don't know.

Probably a long time. Long fucking time. The funniest part is the kids are sitting there and they're like, Oh, yeah, that's cool. Can we get some fucking marshmallows or what? I need to play video games. Pluto's unusual orbit takes 248 Earth years for Pluto to complete one orbit around the sun.

Its orbital path doesn't lie in the same plane as the eight planets, but is inclined at an angle of 17 degrees. And it's not even a planet anymore. Woo! Yeah, mind fucker. There it goes. How about Elon Musk, that crazy asshole, shot a fucking Tesla up in the space yesterday

With a mannequin on board Singing a David Bowie song Oh, there was a people on board? No, a mannequin Oh, I thought there was real people No, it was a dude Sitting in a Tesla Roadster

That's like a mannequin Like, it looks like a dude And he's there That's what it looks like Live Yeah Is this live right now? You can see it?

Yeah, that song's on a billion time loop It's gonna play for a billion years Wait, what's it? They sent that song's on a billion-time loop. It's going to play for a billion years. How is it possible? How does he have the battery for the song to keep playing? He's got some sun in him. He's lying. He's lying. The guy's lying.

These batteries run out of... You go 248 miles, that car runs out of gas. I'm sure he explained it somewhere. Wait, I thought... Dude, I thought he sent actual fucking rockets. Yeah, there was an actual rocket, and a Tesla Roadster with a mannequin in it was attached to the rocket. So at the very apex of this rocket as, you know, there's multi-stage rockets. They pop this bitch out and it goes flying through space.

He shot a fucking car into space. Like imagine aliens coming to Earth and this is like the first thing they found. What the fuck is this? that a person no circuit board there's like the richest craziest guy one of the richest craziest guys on earth one of the smartest guys he just launches cars into space for a goof they're like these people are assholes you see a lot of rich people that maybe they just want to get richer they just want to get richer or something right how much money is he blowing on this shit it's his made on earth by humans I think he blew 100 million dollars

to do this click on that link the image of the Tesla with the earth behind it yeah it's CGI bro the earth is flat man I mean that is just what a crazy image I never talked to Eddie about that.

I want to hear his real theory on that. Eddie Bravo? Yeah. Don't talk to him about it. Dude, I want to hear it. It'll change the way you think. It's got to change now. There's a whole video of this going from the bottom to the top.

No, it's not based in reality, man. It's not based in logic or reason. It's based in- He has no logic behind it? He wants to think the earth's flat. He's like, you don't know. He doesn't't trust science doesn't trust scientists doesn't trust anybody i mean i get that but you got to have some logic still to back it up right you know what one of the things that makes eddie so good at jujitsu is he has an idea to get a move on you and he's fucking completely locked on that idea and everything that's trying to shut that down

is just like he needs to come up with a defense for that he's gonna find a everything that's trying to shut that down is just like he needs to come up with a defense for that he's gonna find a way that's how he looks at ideas as well so if he has an idea that the earth is flat or that there's lizard people that live under the ground like it's like you gotta prove i don't know you gotta prove that that's not real to him and if you can't prove that that's not real and you say well look at these pictures at these pictures. Oh, that's bullshit. They fake it. They faked the moon landing six times. Yeah, you got to give me more than that. I wanted to hear his actual argument,

but I didn't know. Sit down with him. I'll film it. I wanted to. I'll turn the camera on and I'll leave the room. I went to his gym a couple weeks ago, and I'd always heard that he talks a lot at his gym or kind of goes on about different things like that.

Yeah. And I was totally prepared. I was like, fuck yeah, let's go hear it. He didn't do anything. at his gym or kind of goes on about different things like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I was totally prepared. I was like, fuck yeah, let's go hear it. He didn't do anything. He didn't barely even talk. We just rolled the whole time. He was probably happy you were there.

He wanted to show you some jujitsu. He's a jujitsu wizard. He did. He showed me some good jujitsu. He just. I like his system. It's an intense system. And, you know, the moves I only know so much, but the concept of what do we do at 99% of jiu-jitsu classes?

You go practice some new technique you probably never did before. And then you start rolling. And then you roll. Yeah. And when we went there, we drilled, drilled, drilled, and this reminded me much more of like a wrestling style practice, and I liked it a lot in that terms. Well, that's why

he that's why he designed it that way he's a real jiu jitsu genius he really is yeah you know i mean the the conspiracy thing i think he just enjoys it he loves them he loves it he loves he's always sending me crazy i'm afraid i'll love it too much like once i actually have the time it's a giant distraction if you think instagram is a distraction go go try to that's the problem i mean you can't like you there's no website maybe there should be where you can just go on and say okay this is what this side believes about it this is what this side believes about it and you make up your own mind you gotta dig through fucking info wars and of course like if, if you try to tell someone, dude, it's true.

I said it on InfoWars. They're like, okay. Right. You're full of shit. There's a few websites like that, right? Like the Daily Mail. You read on the Daily Mail and you're like, get the fuck out.

Like the Radar or something like that. There's a bunch of them. There's a bunch of weird ones. Matt Brown, I got to wrap this up. I got to get the fuck out of here. But listen, man, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you being here.

It's a pleasure. It's an honor. When are you fighting Carlos Condit April 14th April 14th motherfuckers tune in and it's

I am the immortal on Instagram right yeah and what's your twitter same same alright same I am the immortal

and then immortalcombattequipment.co thanks brother it's a pleasure alright thank you Thanks, brother. It's a pleasure. Thank you.