The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #148 with Bernard Hopkins

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

Joe sits down with Bernard Hopkins, a retired professional boxer who held multiple world championships, including the lineal light heavyweight and undisputed middleweight.

The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. We're here. What's up? Pleasure to meet you, man. I've been a gigantic fan of yours for a long time, so it's a real pleasure. That's what I've been hearing, Joe. But, you know, I'm also become a fan in the last couple of years before you came to Austin.

I go out to L.A. a lot to do boxing, promoting in West Coast, East Coast with the Golden Boy Promotion. I'm a partner of Oscar De La Hoya. So good to be met and good to meet you also. What is it like transitioning from being a fighter to being a promoter? Because Oscar, yourself yourself floyd only a few fighters have managed to do that successfully like you have well first of all it's not just walking into it uh i sort of got groomed in my career um based on um i'll say the last eight, nine years of my 30-year career, I took on the ownership and responsibility of making the last decisions.

I hired people that can give me the right information. Not a lot, but just a few people that can give me the right information about this particular fight. For instance, Kelly Pavlik in Atlantic City, Oscar De La Hoya fight in 06, 06, 07. And I groomed myself for this moment to be ever to be independent, but also learn the business. And let me tell you, it is difficult.

It's difficult not doing a job per se, but it's difficult in a business, in a structure of the business of boxing. The small family in boxing, whether they're here, they're in a promotional setting or commissioner setting, they would definitely try to discourage you by any means necessary. Yeah, I can imagine, especially yourself, because you had had so many issues with promoters over the years and you were so vocal about it, unlike a lot of other fighters. Yeah, I mean, because I was one forced to do it, to fight back. And then second, I looked at it as I didn't really have a choice, even though I could have laid down or got down to their demands.

But I understood one thing, my instincts of survival, but also not just being in the game, I wanted different for myself. And I had one bad experience. Well, I had a couple of bad experiences, but I had one, the first bad experience I had early in my career. And I wound up getting out of because he's deceased, but I can mention it because I wound up being actually sued based on keeping me in check. But I fired back and I wound up, you know, counterpunching and got out of that situation and spoke boldly about it and moved on to try to wake others up. Not actually preach, but just bring it up about my situation. If anybody recognized and experienced it, any fighter or anybody else, they can grab some knowledge.

But that was the start of it. That was the start of it. My first professional fight, not first, but my first championship fight was Roy Jones Jr. And that fight was a parody fight. It was a split, 1.4 split between me and Roy Jones. I have the contract. I kept all the stuff even to the day. I can go back and reflect and bring not only contact for what I'm speaking about, how can it be a number? 750, 725 split, parity,

the word parity. And I get 80,000 when it's all said and done. Now, remind you, I'm fresh out of the penitentiary. 88, 89, 90, 90. I rebooted my career after you know losing my first fight didn't box for 15 months so now we in the what you know early 90s and i rebooted myself back into uh reaching a goal that i eventually uh reached but the business part it it had me thinking in between those moments of clamming the ladder of being a contender, that this is more than just going to the ring and winning and not winning. This was something that I had to learn quick on a job learning. There's a lot of shenanigans in boxing. Yes.

I mean, you got a sport, Joe. You got a sport that's unregulated, right, whether that means anything to people or not. But there's no checks and balances there. The people that set the rules break the rules. I'm going to say that again. The people that set the rules break the rules. I mean, you know,

where can you... Is that that thing that they said was going to go off? I figured it out. Oh, this is happening. Yeah, the cell phones and all that. Just make sure it's not a real problem. Okay. National test.

I just got my... This is a national test. Okay, all right. See, I was thinking maybe again that was somebody, you know, through boxing they know he's ready to come out. They took the business. You know, these people, man.

You know, you got to understand that it's possible. But the possibility of getting ousted, blackballed. Yeah. And boxing such a small circle of separate entities that will come together to oust that enemy the house that that that and so you you understand the border the bulls are it's still on my back in certain reasons because now even though I'm in a different position of not only power but for career, what I stood up for, is not like the past. So as a promoter today, and Oscar De La Hoya, go to more promotion,

the day we signed, the day we became partners, we don't become those who we despise. Now, that's deep. That was 20-something years ago. You can find that anywhere out there in social media. It's there. We suited up and booted with contracts after signing. And that was one of the statements that I continue to bring up 20 plus years later and be consistent about it.

Now, that doesn't mean that every fighter is going to agree to the business side that you have to represent as a promoter. for sure. If your talent brings what you're asking and your representation, whether they name themselves, which boxing does, manager, consultant, advisor,

I mean, I just named three entities that's sucking the blood out of the ignorance of the lack of knowledge of especially young ones and the ones that don't want to learn. I'm not a savior. I'm not running and trying to save anyone.

But trying to understand my job and my role before my lights go out is that I love the sweet science, but I also understand that boxing gave me a way not to be rotting in the penitentiary or in the graveyard. That's what boxing did for me. It gave me that opportunity that I had to walk the walk eventually. Absolutely. That I had to make sure that even though things can happen where you come up short in a square circle,

that I don't give up. And so having that mentality and being consistent over the years and still be able to talk in 2023, still know my name, my social security, all the numbers that matters, all the things that attach to me is a blessing I'm not bragging, I'm different

let them argue let them on the side whoever, fans or no fans one thing for sure most will agree that I'm different whatever that difference is I take it but I'm different.

And keeping the course of being that, as time move on, fast approaching 59, January 15th, 1965. I'm knocking on the door, 60. You look fucking great. Well, ducking helps. Hands up. Come on, man. Come on, one thing for sure

if you duck more than you take yeah you can be able to express yourself as time go on and you better be something worthy

to your family now you're gonna be worthy if you're there but that's not fun to me I wanna be there like I am now I got a 12 yearyear-old son.

You know, Bernard, right? Three generations with him, right? So I want to be there. He used to play football, right? Don't like boxing, right? Threw gloves at him, I guess, when he was eight months. He threw them back. So my whole thing is, like,

not save or not preach as I've been accused of a couple of times, but it's just in me. The spirit's in me. The Muhammad Ali spirit is in me. January 17th, January 15th. I know that I'm here for more than a purpose, that I took that road. I came through that road. Some things in my life that I felt that it was needed, that I had to do, I had to be that because that was that road. I came through that road. Some things in my life that I felt that it was needed,

that I had to do, I had to be that because that was that mindset. But once again, not changing course on a conversation. Once I understood my value and boy, you can appreciate this. When I understood my value in that penitentiary at 17, when I got certified at 17, 5 to 15. So track 5 out of 15 in state prison, that leaves you to back time. To walk off, call parole. They had a boxing gym there. In all of the Pennsylvania prisons, which was 30 plus, had boxing in their penitentiary.

That was part of baseball, flag football, handball on the wall. That sparked. That flame came back from a little short amateur career I had. That's how I built my reputation up in my neighborhood. I always fought, fighting in the streets, fighting in school. How old were you when you first boxed as an amateur? When did you first walk into the gym? Nine years old.

My uncle took me to the gym, my mother's brother, because my father had a brother that boxed too, and they all was my weight while I was all their weight when I started, middleweight. My uncle was on both sides of the tree, mother and father. Boxed at middleweight in the 60s, 70s, early 70s. So it was in my DNA. Right. Can't help myself.

It's who I am and who I became. But I got back to it when I went to the penitentiary. So when you were an amateur, were you taking it seriously or were you... No, I wasn't taking it seriously. You weren't fully committed. I was eating everything

that anybody else was eating at that age in the neighborhood and what was there. I mean, I remember fighting and getting a trophy about this big. It's always the same stance, right? Plastic trophy. But to me, that was like a gold medal. They got the trophy showing everybody remember fighting and getting a trophy about this big it's always the same stance right plastic

trophy but you know to me that was like a gold medal yeah they got the trophy shown everybody in the neighborhood and the elementary school i was at and you know they take you to uh you know i want to get no free commercials but they take you to this this you know just still around you know to get a hamburger french fries and you and you probably know, you know, to take you there, we happy. That was it. Amateur program, but it was like the PAL, right? I don't know if they have it here in Texas, the PAL, called the Police Athletic League.

It's big over there in the East Coast. So the PAL League was structured to get young black urban men that's on the corner or young boys, right, to go to PAL. Anybody can go there, but mostly it was in our neighborhood. They would come to the gym and, you know, you can sign up for amateur boxing. You could be an Olympic gold medal. You can do this and do that. But I had, you know, family members. I was in my DNA.

Once I was taken to the gym by Artie McLeod. We call him Artie, but it was Arthur McLeod. Called him Moose. My mother's brother, middleweight, badass. Look him up, Artie McLeod. The streets took his career, obviously based on what? Lifestyle. The streets philadelphia the blue collar town worker philadelphia can make you or break you when it comes to um making it out of there right not only sports any entertainer any success that you might have on your back and neck in the community and again philly there's love there but a lot of us don't make it out even though the talent was better than mine.

Strong, strong, right? The trap of the streets. The trap of the streets, but also what you're used to doing and what you're used to thinking. Listen, until I traveled through boxing, tell you how much boxing did for me. To travel around the world multiple times,

meet multiple people from every class of life that I believe, you know, I'm pretty sure it's people I haven't met. I'm pretty sure it's people I haven't met. But from here to there to status or power or influencers, I say, man, the world ain't just no Philly. The world is not just Raymond Rosen projects. So I start understanding now, like even sitting there watching at that time, how the fork and the spoon and the butter knife is on one side of the table. And I'm looking, I'm like, look, this guy's taking a nap and putting it on the floor.

I think he's putting it on his lap. I mean, this might sound ignorant, but you got to understand from that mindset of what I'm saying, not understand my experience, because some haven't, but I start paying attention. That was the key. Just like in the boxing business, I start paying attention. And then once I got to the point where I had a voice, means I had to do something in boxing. Nobody cares if you consider it nobody. 10-1 because I lost my first fight in Atlantic City to Clinton Mitchell.

I was out for nine months out of penitentiary. I wanted to get right back in the ring before I grabbed a kilo of cocaine like everybody was selling in the 80s and 90s. That was the plan? I had a choice to do one or the other. Right.

Everybody, listen, anybody on the West Coast and East Coast know the 80 and the 90 era, right? The 80 and 90 era in urban city was get down and lay down. Are you in or are you out? That's all across the board. And growing up, being the guy named Heads, yeah, my nickname. That was Heads? Straight name Heads, yeah.

When you see me coming, I had the same energy. I had the same discipline. And it's going to sound weird. The same discipline that people might think they know me over the years, fans, non-fans, and people that do know me, is the same discipline I had in a negative way. That really, again, not trying to paint my, the work is there. I'm pretty sure if they go into the archives of any police district or whatever,

or archives in City Hall down in Philadelphia, or Harrisburg, them records never go away. They think they might have to bring them up one day, but I won't let it happen. Not on my watch. So I took all that experience, and it seemed like a long time ago. But it felt like, to me,

I lived three different times on this earth. And I ain't even bring up the two stabbings that I wear to scar today from the back and one underneath my left chest. So, there's a lot of times, never been shot,

that I could have done something, be the lamb or be the wolf. And I recognize to be the wolf is much better than being a lamb. That the person I took stuff from, that I went up and looked through them while they looking at me, could have had a gun and blew my brains out. Which I've lost a brother a year under me, Michael.

I'm 58, he's been 57. His birthday was January 29th, 1966. Mine's January 15th, 1965. Got an older sister. She's only a year older. February 14th, 1964. My mother been in labor for three years in a row. Wow.

With six kids. When it's all said and done my mother raised six kids but I was raised I was like raising three maybe four if you ask if she was here God rest her soul but she got a chance and I'm thank you for letting me ramble on she got a chance to see in person my talents that she always knew I had since I was a angry bad boy in elementary school

because she'd been up there a lot of times teachers meetings she got a chance to see me beat Felix Trinidad 9-11 in New York City just had an anniversary months ago well last month she got a chance 9-11 in New York City, just had an anniversary months ago. Well, last month.

She got a chance to fly in the air for the first time, whether it's commercial or jet, both. She got a chance to visit places that she didn't have any dream of doing it. I gave that tour and she passed in 50, I believe 59, 58. I lost maybe off a year, but my mother passed on 59. She was already gone. But every time I've done something and she know I did it, never even asked me, she showed up. Whether it's a visit, whether it's $10 on the books. She never gave up on me. She never turned her back, even though she always threatened me with the,

this is the last time. Now, she might have waited two or three days, but eventually she came and did all she can whether it's taking a second or third mortgage out on the house to bail me out with a three or four hundred dollars or a thousand dollar bail bondsman

come on y'all like until it's over what I mean by that is the breath in your body then it's never really over now you let somebody tell you it's over if you let them plan your funeral based on what you can and cannot do. I'm sitting here in front of Joe Rogan. How many people told you it's nuts to do what came to fruition in your life? I'm pretty sure you had a lot of smart so-called and some of them were.

They didn't see what I seen. They didn't see what you seen. Question on both sides. I know I'm a testimony to it. And I'm pretty sure because I've done some research. I'll always like to know who I'm talking to once I got some knowledge of who I am and who I need to be affiliated with, business or non-business. It just gives me an upper hand to know what I'm facing and what I'm not facing. I'm always in a fight mode, but I don't have to fight. It's here and then it's the physical. It's here, and then it's the physical. The Art of War, Sun Tzu.

I challenge everybody to get one of those teaching books and go through it every now and then. The Art of War has always been a guideline for me. When I say always, most of my adult career I'll say from 23 to now I started pro at 25 when I told you how people try to write your own destiny where you're going to the grave or to success because you said it I gave him the middle, I gave him the middle finger. I gave him the middle finger, not physically. I gave him the middle finger in action, in deeds, which holds a lot more weight. It does a lot more weight. And I wanted to let them know that. So when you got to prison at 17. Yes, certification.

Did you get serious about boxing then? No. Was that like your outlet? No. The first year I ran around the jail, when I mean run around the jail, I was basically an inmate while 41, 45. I basically, I knew people. I didn't know certain people. And you literally, you team up with the people you know in your neighborhood. That's important. That's important to have what?

Backup. Right? You must have that. Right? The Asians was there. The Caucasians was there. The Muslims was there. The Christians was there.

Everybody had sets. So you need that. Now, once you get there, somebody know you. And somebody will know why you're there and what you're there for. Now, you could say you're there

for one thing, but the same people that checks you in, basically with the guard watching over them, know your whole case. They basically do the work that inmates with the guard watching over them, know your whole case. They basically do the work. The inmates, 9 out of 10, they're lifers who's been there and they moved up in the ranks

because of their clean record in the institution. And they'll look at, oh, he say he got a robbery, but he got a rape. He's saying he got a homicide, but he got auto theft. So the credibility crazy as might sound the credibility of what you did for lays not all said and done but it lays a foundation how they approach you a foundation how they approach you. And, yo, listen, even in county, before you get state time,

you got to be in the county, you go back and forth to court, and over 12 months is considered state time. One and a half to five, state time. That's the half that got you to state. It's a different ballgame at Greater Fort State Penitentiary. Maximum security. It's a different ballgame. Knowing somebody, whether they know your uncles or my dad, Bernard Sr., or anybody else in the neighborhood, I know your father.

I remember we used to fight in the projects. Okay, is this scholar really legit? You got to find that out whenever. You ain't going to find out there. You got to find out later. And it could be legit, but these are the things that I've learned. And most of them, the stuff that I know that in time it will help me once I got out and once I've reached certain level in life, I got out and once I've reached a certain level in life

that I need to know certain things and I got to schooling in that situation penitentiary because to me I'm in a penitentiary and society just don't have a wall I don't have a wall here

when I'm pointing here I mean mentally and I don't have a wall physically where I can see it but I know for a fact that being in this position that I've been in for 28 years this rounded off three decades based on the sweet science in the ring when I started and when I retired

six, seven years ago. As I witness and as I experience. That first half of that first part of life, I just said I felt like I lived three or two or three lives. It's helping me now. like I lived two or three lives, it's helping me now. Because when you're in a position where people think they can go on the Internet and think they can find out how much you're worth, what you're not worth, your CPA, your certified accountant know who you are. That's your DNA when it comes to business,

especially if you've got a good one, the right one. So you get approached with all kinds of agendas. And also you get the ones, sometimes you get the spirit to come in people that comes thinking that, you know, no matter how you sound and all that, I'm not trying to sound smart. How you sound smart, what that mean? Certain words you say, tell me the definition of it. Boxing always will have a stigma, and I hate to say it, but it's true 90% of it.

We trust as fighter too many people that say that they are who they are and we give them a pass that they are what they say they are. Because of that experience that I just broke down on you just now, it prepared me without having any knowledge at will until I recognized it. Being awareness, having awareness. that I just spoke about, 20-plus minutes, I would be swallowed up like most of them. I hear the Tyson stories, even when he was on the show, been around him, fought on the undercard many times in Vegas at the MGM.

No, Mandalay Bay. MGM wasn't even there when I fought on the undercard. And I hear a lot of other names. And I say to myself, they say game, recognize game. How you going to ex-convict?

Don't you know I had to talk to get off the block? I am not going to where I say I'm going. I just want to get off the block. And if I get off the block based on that guard letting me off because I say I'm going somewhere that I'm not really going, you build up a skill setting on how to deal with people that you need to deal with. The danger come in is when you do it to everybody.

with people that you need to deal with. The danger come in is when you do it to everybody. The benefits of it when you in front of somebody that you know is full of shit, that you know is looking right at you lying, and you saying to yourself, how long this conversation going to take to be over? But being in a position that I've put myself through, nobody gave me anything. I have to have patience even though I don't have to or I don't want to at that moment. moment because society of what you've done, it becomes such great entertainment and historic. You get the stamp that you a celebrity and you bigger than God. I'm a believer.

I don't shy. I don't push it on the body. I don't shy. I don't push it on the body. I don't bring it up just to bring it up in the conversation to say, would I agree to disagree? So I believe in checks and balances. I believe in all these things that deal with my situation to balance out things that need to be balanced, that keeps me on point to know who I am. A lot of things I won't forget and a lot of things I will.

On purpose. On purpose. So I realized one thing, thing. I realized this. All I do now is being written or going to be written down as I go. but when it's over, that story no longer be written by me. It'd be written by somebody else. I don't want that. No. You know what I want?

Why I have this time? To write it myself and have that awareness to keep me not just in check, but mindful that every step I make, every accomplishment, every failure, every obstacle, every challenge, whatever it is, I must stand 10 toes down on it at all times. That shows, again, the consistency of Bernard Hopkins Jr. Because anybody that understands and know or follow or know anything about me, because most people don't have the patience to do research. They want somebody to tell them who Joe Rogan is. They want somebody to tell them, most people, who Bernard Hopkins is.

I learned not to be in that world of thinking. I learned to do my due diligence before I stepped up to my opponent or adversary or any other person that breathed the same air of life that I breathe. So did you learn this focus and determination and discipline? Did you learn this because of prison, because you wanted to make sure this never happened to you again? Absolutely. because you wanted to make sure this never happened to you again? Absolutely. So that experience when you were 17, being locked up,

that was, even though it was a horrible situation, pivotal to your growth. What do you mean horrible situation? Being in prison. No, it wasn't. It wasn't horrible. No. How so? Because most of my friends I said was there.

Second, I wanted to get out. Obviously, when I got caught, when you get caught by the police or you get locked up, obviously you try and do everything to get out. Whether you give an alias name, whether you try to, I didn't do it. But when I got there

and I seen that it wasn't like it's promoted on TV per se. Case in point. I had more friends there than I had in the neighborhood that's locked up. Of course, they glad to see you because you're locked up with them. Right. The mindset,

Joe, when you're there, you're not you know, you're not thinking you're thinking, you got people that's for good reasons looking out for you. Which means, I got this, you need this, you got this, you got a stinger, you can heat some hot water up and eat some

soup, whatever. You learn to survive in that situation. Because I don't believe, and I said this in multiple interviews, multiple interviews, multiple interviews. I did a lot of expressing myself over the 28 years of boxing. Trust me. It's not hard to find my voice.

I got to understand that without that experience, I wouldn't be here having this conversation with you or anyone else before you, let alone the Hall of Fame, let alone today the oldest athlete. Yeah, got Brady a couple years. That won a major world title, surpassing George Foreman. Yeah, you were world class into your 50s. There's only a couple guys like that. I was defending my title with 25, 30-year-olds in my 40s.

Yep. Well, I remember when they wrote you off before the Kelly Pavlik fight. I wrote a blog on my website about that fight because I was so blown away. Because I remember leading into that fight, everybody wrote you off, first of all, in the Felix Trinidad fight. They thought you were too old then.

35. Correct. They thought you were over the hill. Felix Trinidad is this young, incredible fighter. There's so much emotions involved when you went to Puerto Rico and threw the flag on the ground and everybody was chasing you. I mean, you sold the shit out of that fight. It was wild.

But it won the sell. I know, but it did. But it just happened. Yeah, it did. But it sold like crazy and they were writing you off and you put on a master class. I remember that fight.

I remember that fight like it was yesterday. Just had the anniversary last month. Woo! Because I was always a big fan. And I was a big fan also of the fact that you were standing up to the promoters. Because I remember the people, like the HBO boxing people, they didn't like it. They didn't like when you talked about all that stuff. They thought you were wasting their time.

But you had an important message. And so people were kind of looking to write you off. So by the time you fought Felix Trinidad, it was one of those crossroads fights where many people thought Felix Trinidad is going to become an all-time great, Bernard Hopkins is 35, this would be a good win for Felix Trinidad.

And you just fucking boxed masterfully. It was a beautiful fight. It was a beautiful fight because it showed all the things I love about your style. First of all, the intelligence, the defensive responsibility. You never put yourself in bad positions. Never. Your defense was always tight as Fort Knox, and you start picking them apart. And I remember watching going, oh, shit.

Oh, shit. It was just one of those fights where it was just so exciting. It was so, because, you know, even though I was a fan of yours, and I was a fan of Felix Trinidad as well, it was watching it happen. I mean, you watch it as something special. Right. And that's the thing that athletics does for us,

and particularly fighting because it's so raw. What it does to us is it shows us the potential that human beings have beyond what we expect you did that with felix trendad and you were you were in your 40s when you fought kelly right yes how will we done that multiple times in my career kelly paddock i'll say 44 45 which is another one i wrote that's when i wrote a blog about it like do you understand how crazy they think that i get knocked out on this one yeah this one and i I'm saying that I go to jail for that. That was after the Jermaine Taylor fight, right? Yes.

So people thought, oh my God, this kid. I'm glad you said that. Stop right there. Yes. The two Jermaine Taylor fights, right? Now, I accept my losses. But those two, not losing sleep in 2023 over it, but I met him regret the lie.

What I mean by that is that Jermaine Teller heist. Luther Bella used to work for HBO, started Luther Bella Entertainment, so he had Jermaine Teller under the entertainment of Luther Bella, so they wanted to

use Jermaine Teller to get me out of boxing because I've generated a lot of enemies. They've been my biggest supporters being my enemies to not fall asleep at the wheel or to underestimate anybody that comes in front of me, whether they're worthy or not. Number one contender, number one, two contender.

That's another politics story that sometimes they put people there just because of they can put people there. Jermaine Teller fight, split decision win to Jermaine Teller. The second fight, which I believe was just as close as the first fight. to Jermaine Teller, the second fight, which I believe was just as close as the first fight. So Jermaine Teller went 24 rounds with Bernard Hopkins, correct? Lost his mind, haven't been right since.

They feed him. They, the powers that be, want the fans to believe the lie, which it was a lot of rumbling about who won that first fight. A split decision, the champion doesn't get the split decision, and not a favor, but R.P. Tremaine Teller. But three or four days in boxing, it goes away. Who cares? We fight the second fight because as a champion, I could put in a contract.

Hey, Spence and Crawford. Crawford wants to exercise that, you know, that clause. That clause. Correct. So we got that second fight. Decision loss. They think it's going to make it a little better. Not a split decision.

It's a decision. Okay. They wanted me to pack up and run. Basically get the fuck out of here. We got you. They fed him to Kelly Pavlik because they wanted the fans. They wanted you at that time. but you're a little smarter. Not patronizing,

keeping it 100. They put Kelly Pavlik in there with Jermaine Teller and Kelly Pavlik did what? Knocks him out after avoiding to knock out himself. Correct? Yeah, real close to going out.

Yeah. So now they said, hey, they want to clean up the mess. I've been around this game 30 times. Joe, trust me on this one. They want to clean up the mess. They're still getting hammered with the fight with me and Jermaine. Now they're putting him there with Kelly.

Thought he was going to walk him over. Kelly stops him. We're going to now try to make things up on the back end now. We got to still make that thing up with Bernard Hopkins because Tom is not going to bury it because Bernard got a big mouth. And Bernard's going to keep talking.

So let's pick Kelly Pavlik. Hold up. Let's pick Kelly Pavlik in there with him. In Atlantic City, Joe. He's going to get Bernard. This is the first time Larry Merchant, who I had a lot of fun beating him up on the mic. Hey, this is the first time we might just see Bernard get snuck. He's going to get knocked out this fight because they wanted you to think that the Jermaine

Tullis fight. Remember I said earlier they wanted you to believe the lie? Yeah. They got to promote the lie. Yeah. And hopefully they look like a genius when it happens. Yeah. One of my best performances, not just in the ring,

but one of my best performances of who I am, how I wouldn't let them write my death warrant or my exit warrant or who I am. And see, the thing is, they know who I am.

Oh, your enemy know who you are. That's why they threatened by that. They seen you coming, Joe, a long time ago. But it's a time that comes and goes when they know they can't stop you. Right now, at 2023, right now now fast approaching 2024 and I'm sitting up here having a conversation articulating everything I said and know what I'm saying

dates and time they didn't expect that they didn't expect that they expect a voice recorder with me sitting up here like the movie Bernie dead but alive I'm here bigger than just who I became. I'm going to say that again.

Yeah. I'm here. This is when it comes, not overly spiritual, but this is what I believe. I'm here to prove to me,

can't speak for anybody else, that the historic chapter is the second layer of foundation which is to come that they better be aware of. That they better be aware of. Because now that statement brings me that they better be aware of because now that statement brings me

to this conversation that need to be said and this is the best platform to spill it out on the boxing game the business of boxing has to be met with a personality

and a discipline, no matter what the wind is blowing, which way it is blowing, that I'm not going to give up. And that's what the threat is. And that's what the fear is. And it's not fear me personally. It's fear in what I know and what I can do and my consistency to bring

the people together whether they're the ones that really mean it, the good politicians, the people that's in the game of boxing, some commissioners, not all, to understand that we need checks and balances

in this business to at least to have law there to, as a structure, to honor and go by. And if there's any violation like anything else, you get test times for it. You got to pay. You got to get punished in so many ways to do it. So boxing, like any other sport

in America, is the only sport that's not regulated by any entity other than itself. Hmm. You know, Joel, I used to always say to myself back then, there are so many, when they hear this, they're going to be, oh, my God. There are so many non-active, active, excuse me, lawyers in boxing. There's a lot of lawyers or can be lawyers. They went to law school, they got the law license, but they don't practice. But they have knowledge of what they can do and what they can't do. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. or at a disadvantage, not at an advantage,

to know to do's and don'ts. Right, whether or not you're getting fucked. So, yes, yes, whether or not we're getting fucked. And most of the time you're getting fucked. 99.9% you're getting fucked. When you were saying that the Roy Jones Jr. fight, there was a 1.4 split and you made 750 or whatever it was

after all that you only brought home 80 how's that possible? I had a contract again this was the ignorance coming, lack of knowledge I had a contract with a management team that sold me out with the promoter and the promoter

again, Butch Lewis God rest his soul uh he uh somehow um convinced my managers at that time arising boxing uh that uh he uh can do better for them in the long term fighters come and go and go. Managers and advisors stay around, whatever name they put themselves under. And so I had a 60-40, remember I said ignorance early. I had a 60-40 manager contract. I have it to the day framed in my office. That's pretty crazy.

60-40 manager contract. I kept that contract. I framed it. So these things, because it shows how far I evolved. What's a standard contract? What's a fair contract? Which you negotiate. What is a good professional get?

In boxing? Yeah, like Jermell Charlo for the Canelo fight. I'll say a manager shouldn't get no more, no more than 15% at that level of Charlo. 10% most of the time, but no more than 15% because he might be doing other stuff and he might got investments in you leading up to that moment.

Right. Right? You know, leading up to that moment. He had you around the Olympics or he had you straight up fighting at a club fight and you build yourself up to a contender and then you're a championship.

Yeah. Right? So I would say no more than 15%. And a lot of feedback and a lot of response going to be really on that point that I just said when it comes to number. No more than 25, 25, 30.

You got advisors right now, and they call themselves advisors, working as a promoter, which means that part of the change of boxing, part of the fight that I know there's going to be a rumble going into the next generations, and we in that Golden Boy promotion. Top ranked by Ram, been around 50-plus years, just as long as Don King, right? Time is very, very short and limited, right?

Not saying they won't go out of business, but the brand is there, but the energy and the strength, it's a new game now. It's a new war order. Curtis Mayfield, right? I'm an old school guy. Curtis Mayfield, new war order, right? It's happening now in certain situations, and it's going to happen in boxing. Everything is being flipped and turned around. The survive surviving, and the dead dies.

boxing has no guidelines on what you can do how much you can take other than the commissions not all but most of them

is governing the rules that they set. And that's where the problem comes. The manager's job is to manage and look out by enemies necessary for the fighter. The promoter promotes the event, gets sponsors, gets the money, gets the support, and he and the manager go to the table, and they have a conversation about what is there, the minimum. Canelo, $30 million, $25 million the other night.

Canelo, $30 million, $25 million the other night. That was negotiated by a consultant that's really a promoter hiding in a closet. Boxing is a great sport the business red light district any red light district that I know of is not a good place to be

if you're going to be preaching at church on Sunday boxing has always been controlled by crime figures, mob, crooked lawyers. But that was then. Now it's a different time and way to do it. Those days with the envelope underneath the table, nah.

That been stopped. underneath the table? No. That Benz stopped. The way it's being done now is based on favoritism. Who they want in, who they want out. When it comes to who they can exploit who they can make more money with and who they can and cannot influence how deep does it go

like how does it as far as like judges because there's been some fights where like Timothy Bradley versus Manny pacquiao where the decision gets announced and everybody just goes what there's a few of those decisions where people go what is the line what's the betting line who's financially tied to this who's the promotion i you a recent one. Lomachenko. Yes. Devin Haney. I mean, Lomachenko, yo. Yeah. Like, they answer that question. It's who they want to win and move to the next level. Because that's where they can make the most money. And that's where they have the most control.

Hello. Yeah. So this is something that you have to be a Harvard graduate to understand Right This is like in your face So what? I'm taking it to the point that deep

I know y'all see This is boxing No What do you mean this is boxing? You hear reporters that been around just as long as the promoters, right? Because they can get a free meal at the press conference, or they can get somewhere, they got their little perks, right? They can get a little free credential to wear around your neck,

and then sell his soul. Yeah. So when you're in that environment that's so tight, when it comes to the community of it, they can smell your fart. You like that? It's crazy. I mean, it's that

serious. And I'm saying to my small circle, it's like, yo, you telling me that this judge along with the other two judges, right? It's three ringsides. It's three judges, right? Six eyeballs that's watching this fight.

Nobody's drooling from the mouth. Right? Nobody got an oxygen tank. Right? It's judging. So, we assume that the commission of that state,

Vegas, here, there, whatever, LA, whatever, they assign these judges. They screen these judges. They might do a background check to see if anybody's mortgage

is late or their car payments are late. Eight, nine months due. We need to understand the qualifications of being a judge because lives of careers is at stake at that

high level where not only are you taking something from that particular fighter, but his family is wrapped up in that too. They don't look at that. They don't care. And so when it happens every now and then, and not every 10, 15, 20 years,

whether it makes it right or not, this is a consistency. And also, from the previous decades and moments in history, boxing still has that question. Is boxing rigged before it goes down? Is boxing controlled by the underworld or the new underworld or the world of influence or the world of power or the world who they want to make more money off of?

It's about who they can make more money off of. And look, I'm not going to say I understand because if I say I understand, then I feel that I am not going to do nothing about it, then I feel I'm part of the problem. Because a lot of guys and a lot of people in the boxing business

know what I'm talking is genuine and is straight up the truth, but they would never do what I'm doing right now. They just accept it. Well, they just deal with it. They don't talk out. They keep their mouth shut. And not all, but there's some have things to lose.

Payday. Payday. lose. Payday. Payday. So, or positions of where they at or what they do. They don't want to lose whatever it is, big or small to you, to them, is their God or next to it. That's how deep that is. I witnessed it. I'm there on the front row. And I'm not having no nonsense. And the thing of not having that is one thing of saying it. Joe, I don't need a job from them to pay my bills. I don't need them to do something for me based on a threat or based of silence you.

See, that's the power I was talking about early, not the other power. Some could be great. Some can be not great. But the power of do-for-self and the power of being consistent and got there in spite of the blackballing,

the never giving up as you witnessed with the Tito fight. That was the beginning of their demise, who I became today in 2023. And he still can talk and speak. And he hasn't forgotten nothing. Only if he chose to.

That's when I say power. Yeah. But that's your discipline. That's your drive. And that's so extraordinary that you were able to maintain that. At, you know, kelly pavik fight again you're 44 in that fight 44 45 that's crazy yes compete at a world-class level against one of the top guys in the sport who's a knockout artist at 44 45 and just put on a clinic that that

put on a clinic that moment there was around the time I became the alien. When you box forward three decades, you got three brands. Yeah, you were the executioner. You had to change it to the alien. Listen, I understood the time I hung around, and I had to recreate myself. I had to bring something to the press conference. Joe, I know you want to ask the question, but I'm going to let you answer it. But I had to come up with something. Why? Why, Joe, I know you want to ask the question, but I'm going to let you answer it. But I had to come up with something.

Why? Why, Joe, is because what? Every reporter that's been covering me, they got tired of covering me eventually. Not based on what I've done and didn't do. I'm making history. They know it. Every time I fight, they remind me every fight I win.

Now you just did this, you just did that. Ray Robinson couldn't do it, and you did it. The Tarver fight, jumping up two weight classes. Now, the Charlo brothers, right? You see what he tried to make history, went up, jumped two weight classes and fight Canelo. I set records that's still there to be chased. It's a blessing for me to sit back and have fun and have conversation.

But I understood, again, every moment, every historic moment, every time that I can stay in the game, not because I needed the money. They was paying me very well to leave. They was paying me very well to leave because of what? I wanted to make sure that I established a historic record that it would take decades to break them. And that's what's happening today or an attempt to happen. And so that, to me, gave me more drive to say, I'm going to stay around one more.

I'm going to chase this dream. I'm going to chase that gold. I'm going to make this history because Ray Robinson didn't do it. I'm going to jump up two weight classes and fight Tarver. How old were you when you fought Tarver? 58, 48, 49. You know how crazy that is? Yeah.

In Atlantic City. Again, this is— How were you able to do that? What separates you physically from all those fighters that deteriorated young in their career? Is it your defense? Like, is it just technique? It was a combination as a recipe. It was all above.

Break them down to you. I'm going to break them down to you. Okay. It was two of those that you mentioned. Discipline, of course. You know, protecting yourself at all times in that ring, even though you're still going to get hit, but you want to hit more than you get hit,

obviously, the wear and tear. Lifestyle. Joe, the lifestyle outside the ring is impeccable. You got to understand the lifestyle and the discipline. Go back to D block. Let's go back to D block. Let's go back to running that yard. Yard out, yard in.

Let's go back to winning championships in the greater full penitentiary. Before I came home, I was a championship in prison. You go to my Instagram. I know they're going to go now. I put up a sparring session with all the inmates outside the ropes

watching me spar in the same penitentiary I got paroled from. I have more video that I kept just for my own safe keep not knowing it gold today. What kept me

in the business of boxing physically was not just my talent. I'm not downplaying it by no means. Roy Jones was talented than me. Oscar De La Hoya, Trinidad was talented than Bernard. It was all Bernard, come on now. You had to, no, I ain't talking, I'm talking about as far as all around skills.

But one thing I did have, I had the room and ability to do what? To reinvent myself, to make sure that I don't be one way all the time. I learned styles that Roy possessed. I learned styles that Trinidad possess. I learned the street Philadelphia mentality of the history of Philadelphia. Come in, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am.

I learned all that stuff and wrapped it up in a recipe, and now the main course was served. I learned so many things through time and experience, up or down, bad or good, like or dislike. I learned all these things and put them together in a proper space. And I said, guess what? If I'm in there with a guy that's strong the first couple of rounds, I'm going to know it without showing him I'm being leery of him. And once I identify that, it takes about two or three rounds. Why you think

they said he's a slow starter? He's boring the first four or five fights. Joe, you watch me. You heard him say all the commentators. They snoring around the fourth round. They snoring. But then I understand what I have to do. Turn up the gas.

Not only, yep, turn up the gas, but disarm them. Disarm them mentally, which control, from my perspective, everything you do tomorrow, everything you do the next round, everything you think about doing, if I put doubt in your mind, and come to the ring prepared physically to take you to that task of whether you believe what you say. That's D-Block. And then you take that experience, which I've had, not bragging and boasting about it,

but it's my history. It's part of my story. Without that, I'm not here. One of the enjoyable things I would love doing before the fight starts is when a referee, Bernard,

come out, Jermaine Tello, and then we're in the middle of the ring. And he's giving you last rights, right? Last instructions of the rules

he gave you in the dressing room. I call it the last rights because you don't have to be alive when you leave out of there. When that bell rings, your life could be in jeopardy. So I wanted to say last rites. So when they give us the last rites, you heard the rules, you heard this, it's too low, it's too high if you hit there. And I'm looking at my opponent like me and you're looking at each other.

He's looking at me. I'm looking through him. I said it earlier. And whatever he see, he won't speak, but he can't run now. And as his bottom lip shiver, as we stare at each other for at least two seconds before he gives us the instruction to go to the corner and then the bell ring, first round is on. It ain't how fast and how good I start. It's how I finish.

That's how I beat my opponents in and out of the ring. They front runners. They run in 880s and they're like, oh, I got a great time. I'm like, okay. We're not done, though. That's the patience. That is knowing who you are and understanding that in doing that, you might have to taste some defeat.

But you always hear the sound bite, especially in boxing. They love to use words because other people say it. Dare to be great. Their actions don't speak the words they come out of their mouth most of the time. And that's what separates the do's

and the don'ts. The dare to be great. Correct. And the belief in yourself at 44 45 years old to still be not just world class but one of the best in the world thank you that was just it was just extraordinary that you were able to keep that level of skill now i just want to talk to you about your lifestyle and your training and what was it about your preparation, the way you lived, that gave you this incredibly long career? My mother and father, Bernard Sr. and Shirley Hopkins, my mother, they lived, they had a different way of, at that time, the way they lived. I come up, I told you again, you know, a big family, four sisters, and the rest boys.

I'm the second oldest. And they both, my mother and father, was dead before 60. Not because of an accident, not because of some, you know, violent crime or anything like that. Lifestyle. I grew up around a lot of stuff. I've seen a lot of stuff. I used to watch my father take syringes and hide them up at the woodwork of the front of the door up top. And I used to climb up through the chair and get it and hand it to my mom,

and she said, where do you get that from? And I used to say it, and I stopped. I realized I was starting something. It had to be about maybe six, maybe seven, and I realized I was starting something, so I no longer used to see them put it up there or go up there and get it. And so it's the lifestyle.

I've seen a lot of lifestyle that I knew. And the history, too, of Philadelphia. Any little success you get, you think you're world champion. No, you're a regional champion. You're a Pennsylvania champion. A lot of guys actually wasn't disciplined to take it to the next level. They became stars in their next level. They became stars in their own neighborhood. They became

stars in their own city. I don't need to be bigger than that. And knowing it and saying it is one thing. But just as I speak now, as that conviction that I'll continue to walk that walk and talk

to talk, that drove me to be able to never give up and never waver from what I believe. So that there helped me stay away from the things that is right in front of your face most of the time. the things that is right in front of your face most of the time. When you win, they have after parties with Bernard, with Champ. He'll pop up upstairs. He's getting in a hot tub. I go right to my room.

I wasn't a monk, but I go right to my room because 90% of people that's at that party, maybe half of them was rooting against me. And then second, they either smoking, drinking, snorting, or anything else. I wasn't about that life. I wasn't about that when I was a hoodlum in the streets. I was about having things that I felt that my parents didn't have enough to give us that life that we just seen right three blocks from where we lived. And sometimes, especially in California, you can make two turns

and you're in somewhere where you'd be like, well, hold up, who hit the lottery? So I wanted that life in a different way and got a chance to now have it and some through the travels and the time that I've been on this earth with those two life experience that I look at, three lives that I lived, just the third one, that any of those times could have been over. That kept me disciplined in between fights. The years that I got, got to have some credit, got to give credit to that thinking and that experience of seeing my mother and father die before 60 because of lifestyle. My father had shot out his liver out at 57. I feel the best. You look great. I know I feel great.

I know I look great. And it was already gone. I reflect every now and then about that when I see pictures by getting certain things together about my life story. I'm looking and reading. I'm looking and grabbing things that I kept that's given to me by siblings. We all grown now. All my siblings, except for my brother because he got killed. Yeah, I went to prison in 84. My mother lost two sons,

speaking of that. Michael Derek Hopkins, I told you January 29th, he'd have been 57, 1966. The year 84, I remember it was the beginning of 84 because the Sixers

last championship was in 1983. If you're a basketball fan. 84 I was booked. 84 my brother got killed. Shirley Mae Hopkins lost two sons in 84.

Talking about trauma. That was a key, key, key push and experience that I had to do something to make her proud. To make her proud once I get out. Still got years to do.

How many years do you want to do? Five. Five to 15. So track five out of 15, the way the Pennsylvania Parole Board works, if you get out on your minimum is five. You can do the 15.

Get into a stabbing, get write-ups, do something in there that can be a crime too. The five is the minimum. The 15th is the max. So I had to walk a straight line amongst chaos. No confusion. Everybody, 90% of people there, they know why they're there. Fuck what they say. They know why they're there.

That moment, after that first year of establishing myself, filling out the environment of who you deal with, who you stay away from, who to snitch, what guard, what CO is good, what CO is not. Most of the COs live in the same neighborhood you grew up at. It was the brother of your uncle. Friend. Who never had a felony, so he got a full application.

He got a job, man. He's the CO. I know your dad. Okay, thanks. Hey, CO, can I, you know, get an extra commissary or whatever? Go ahead. So you're not really protected by nobody because anybody can sell you out or do a favor but what I'm trying to understand is just physically I understand that you

didn't party I understand that you're very disciplined but how are you physically able to compete at that level deep in your 40s because of again lifestyle but everybody else falls apart. Because everybody else is doing what everybody else has been doing. What were you doing different physically? Physically, I was always, even to the day, I pay attention to what I put in my body is who I am,

not what I actually look like. And I understood that most people that I seen in my time in boxing, Florida's disciplined the same way. Don't drink, don't smoke, and be sitting right there in the club and everybody doing everything else. You heard that before. It's all over. You got those type people like that.

Genetics plays a role. My grandmother lived to 99. But then again, do I really take all the eggs and put it in that basket because my father and mother died before 60? So I would say the lifestyle. I would say the mindset or the teachings are both hit, not get hit. You know, read books a lot. Do something to exercise your brain. The mindset or the teachings are both hit, not get hit. You know, read books a lot.

Do something to exercise your brain. Take care of your physical body. The penitentiary. The penitentiary taught me more going there once I got there to understand what I wanted to do. I wasn't just lifting weights in a weight yard and be swole up around a bunch of men for five years. I went and understood that, A, after a year went by, they got a boxing program. I wanted to get off the block to go to another block and the guard, CO, said, where you going, Y-41, 45? Hey, I'm going to the gym, but I'm trying to go on A block to hang out before count to go back on my block.

If I don't do it, if I don't get over it before count, I get a write-up. So I was forced to go down to the gym and seeing people sparring, and I said, I want to be a part of that. And I got my ass beaten lesson, and I didn't like it, and I never been afraid to go in the gym again. 30 years later, I said I would never go in a ring or any situation ill-repaired or unrepaired. I always go in there prepared. I always go in there prepared. That lesson that I said to you then and I say to you now,

being in that institution, having that experience, going in that gym for the first time and say after a year went by, and only by accident that I went down that gym because I was headed to another block, as I said earlier. And to get down that gym because boxing was in the penitentiaries in that era. We had boxing there

attached to the AAU, which is the same thing they have outside. They used to bring young fighters in there to fight us they're amateurs have shows for the inmates you buy a ticket at the commissary you go to the fights that Friday and inmates watch you

root for you I didn't like how I felt I wasn't prepared they didn't beat me because I wasn't like how I felt. I wasn't prepared. They didn't beat me because I wasn't better. I got beat because I didn't run. I got beat because of the ego. I got beat because, as they say, the word hater, that I go down there and say,

you want to get in there with him? Yeah, come on. I used to box when I was in the streets. You know, that's the common talk. I used to do this when I was in the street. Okay. But those same old head trainers that had double life or one life sentence or two life sentence,

they spoke about me on Behind the Glory. Brian Gumbel, look it up. It's out there. They spoke about me when I visit that same prison in my early professional career. Guess what? Doing what? Sparring for my Atlantic City preliminary fights when I was building my record to get to where I became a champion. I became the USBA champion, which is a sister of the IBF World Championship belt.

I left that institution. Anyone would have ran much, as far as they could, they would have ran so far from that place and never want to see it again. But after six

to seven months of coming from a first professional loss with Clinton Mitchell in Atlantic City, look it up, I took off 89 and 90. The streets was grabbing me. I still had seven and a half years parole due to math, nine years. I rebooted my first fight, I believe 91, 90 and 91. But that crucial moment,

that year and a half, if you look up my record, you'll see Clinton Mitchell, 89, inactive. 89 inactive, 90 inactive, 91. What was happening in 16 months? I made a decision meeting an old guy named Bowie Fisher.

Guy with a sizzle. He won a champ. We won championships. He should be in the Hall of Fame because of me. I'm already in there. I'm the only fighter he ever had. Very few trainers go in the Hall of Fame with one Hall of Famer

or fighter the fighter gets in but the trainer might not and I'm not saying it's bad or good I'm just saying that's how it goes he made a and I made a a bet you being a

this is out there you being a gym tomorrow and the next day and every day you being, this is out there, you being in the gym tomorrow and the next day and every day that we in the gym, I will be here. He heard young fighters come through. He heard guys come through before. Oh, can you train me?

I'm going to be here tomorrow. He might come tomorrow, but they don't come to be a champion every day that the gym is open and we had a bet without even saying it's a bet he asked me to come

and he would be there if I come he said he would be there and it was sort of like and to the point we stopped even thinking about it. We just repeated it to the reporters and everybody that talked to us. That's how we met. How long after your first professional loss do you hook up with Bully Fisher?

80, 91, 91, 92. So that's 16 months. That's when you hook up with him. And how long do you spend training with him before you have your next professional fight? All the way up to the Trinidad fight. Oh. So during that 16 months off,

were you just training? Were you just improving? Yeah. But the training was fighting. You had mandatories. I had two fights, maybe three a year

until you establish yourself. Normally two a year once you get at that level of, you know, competition. But yeah, I stayed in the gym. You heard the saying, gym rat. I was a rat in the gym. You heard the saying, gym rat. I was a rat in that gym.

I stayed in the gym. And one thing that I pass on to the Golden Boy Fighters today, because they come to me, they ask me, of course, why wouldn't they, right? History normally repeats itself. come to me. They ask me, of course, why wouldn't they? Right? Right. History normally repeats itself. Watch old fights. The old fights they're watching is our era.

Mmm. I say, not only that, go to the next era. Go as far as back that you need to go to understand that what you think you're doing has been done already, but the beauty of going back and getting that experience and add it to the land of time that you got. The land, you have land, you can build a stench into your house.

The land you have in your age and the time you now are developing, take knowledge from the cradle to the grave and take those recipes, put them together from the past and you add it to the foundation that you already have, which is you, your style. It will be hard to adjust to a guy, to adjust to be the guy that has more than one weapon. And I don't mean their hands.

I'm talking about in their arsenal. In their arsenal. It's hard to beat a guy like that. Joe Frazier, great fighter. Hall of Famer. But never boxed like Ali. He came forward even though

it was to his disadvantage. You're in New York City at 12 noon driving, but you don't have reverse. You're going to get jammed up. You're anywhere in New York Times Square down there and you came back up, you're going to get jammed up. You're anywhere in there you're anywhere in New York Times Square

down there and you can't back up you're going to have a problem. I guarantee you take that concept into a fight. You know that you got to back up or at least duck some of those but you're still conditioned to go forward because you've been successful

all the way up to now. I never wanted that element of surprise. So I learned how to box going forward, sideways, from Philly. I know how to go forward, but now I'll show you the boxing style. And I'm going to show you. So I gave my opponents fits on trying to find a strategy that I actually going to stick with myself that they can beat me on. And again, it was successful, very few, but some were successful and some got help.

But I have no, I have no reserve apologizing in anything that happened in my career that I've done. And I say that at that moment, even though you didn't ask, but you brought it up. The Tito, Trinidad. I've been to San Juan maybe two or three times. Do I know for sure when I went there and ate food, did somebody spit in the kitchen in my food? I don't know that. But I can tell you the love that I got, the response that I got.

And it's not the same generation, but it's always an OG hanging around. Cigars, Panama hat, come right out. You're Bernard. You should be T.O. Yo, here I'm in San Juan, and I got the generations all in between surrounding me.

Saying, you was a great champion. Signed gloves. Signed my autograph. Come on. You really mean that, Papa? You mean to me, you threw the flag down. You don't like Puerto Rico?

I said, what are you talking about? We got a little San Juan in Philadelphia. Every city got a little San Juan. I said, but at that moment, I wasn't getting respected. It's a Don King promotion. I had to sleep business-wise to get the opportunity with Don for two fights.

So I had a two-fight deal. The tournament. And I'm the oldest one in the tournament. I'm the grandfather in the tournament. And I'm the oldest one in the tournament. I'm the grandfather in the tournament that should be in the nursing home based on their... Well, based on most fighters of your era when they got to that age.

Correct. But I understand. Right. How they thinking. But the difference is I'm different. But I got to prove it. Yeah. So now,

the promotion starts. We in New York, HBO, blah, blah, blah. I say, hold up. T.O. Trinidad has multiple followers. He has a multi-million dollar contract with TV. I'm the renegade. Out of the penitentiary, every time the commentators bring my name up,

he did five years for this, so I understand the Robin Hood and understand the bad guy. So you got the good guy and the bad guy, that's what sells, I get it. But I ain't had to surrender to it. I knew what their agenda was, now let me show mine.

In New York City, I said, listen. This is the first four-city press conference. I have 11 defenses. I stopped at 21, 22 defenses. I had 11 at this time, I said, look, I'm the champion. Tito's coming up to wait to win my title. Don King

presented me a deal with my advisor, representator for a two-fight deal to be in this historic, since Marvelous Marvin Hagler, undisputed tournament for the Sugar Ray Robinson trophy.

I'm going to pass that up because this takes me to stardom. So I signed on. Press conference starts. New York. You want me to play second. Tito is more known. Tito just beat Oscar De La Hoya

by split decision. Controversial not split decision. I'm letting everyone know at HBO Carrie Davis Ross Greenberg The Suits at HBO at that time Mark Taffet I said We going to Philadelphia from New York,

then Miami, and then San Juan. Promotional tour. I anticipate the bullshit, thinking I'm going to play second because Tito has much fan base than me, and the Latin market is huge, which, okay, I know that, but still, I'm not surrendering.

You're still the champion. And I'm Bernard Hopkins. If y'all don't respect me when we go to this next city, because I threw the flag down in New York City. There's a park right next door across the street from HBO Buildings in Manhattan.

Can't mention the name right now. I can, but I don't remember the name. But it's there. And we had the press conference there. The flag went down in New York first. They quieted it up real quick because they didn't want it to spread like it already did,

but it was already out through some reporters that was there. That was the first stop, New York City. And they didn't respect me. And I said to them, if we're going to do these next cities, and y'all don't worry about me, y'all not being conscious of this flag going down again, then respect that I have 11 defenses.

This is my division. Tito's coming up to my division to make history. You're going to respect me. I'm going to be first, and I'm going to be last through this tour that we're going to do. I'm not going to play second behind. Y'all trying to win the middle battle before it starts. I'm not putting them up there like that.

Y'all can do it, but you ain't going to do it in front of me. It's going to be a problem. And we can do this press conference. We can go to Philly, and we can go to Miami, and we can go to San Juan. I know it just like it happened yesterday. I said, but one thing for sure, I'm not going to apologize because that's what they wanted me to do.

Where I come from, you don't punch a man or take his money until you say sorry the next day. You don't do that. You take it and you stand on it. And if you see him again, you don't punch a man or take his money until you say sorry the next day. You don't do that. You take it and you stand on it. And if you see him again, you take it again. I said, I'm not going to apologize. Y'all can wait. We can go if y'all want to go.

If four of my people don't want to go because they got to take care of their dog or they got an appointment at a doctor's that I didn't hear about until that happened, let me know on my side anybody need to go. You know, Cup Man, my trainer, you know, anybody. If anybody worry about going to the next three cities, then let me know. Oh, okay. I wouldn't apologize. I said, okay.

They're going crazy in San Juan. Let me know before I get there. Bernard, you know, just going to have security. Okay, you had the just going to have security, going to have, okay, you had the Puerto Rican police watching a guy that threw the flag down in New York. So we get to Philadelphia. The press conference was smooth. We had a peace treaty in New York that nobody would talk about it.

We're not going to bring it up, even if the reporters bring it up. Cool, okay. Tito's on the same. Okay, nobody. Everything was fine. Philly, fine. Reporters asked, we skated across it, asked.

Miami, fine. Of course people asked. It's concentration on the fight. It's going to be good. September 29th, you know, 9-11, we all together, rah, rah, rah, the whole world's been churned up. It was the first big event

in two weeks after 9-11. My experience was there. Film everything. That's attached to my legacy. We get to Miami. It ain't get heated, but people got big Latin community down there. It got kind get heated, but you know, people got big Latin community down there.

It got, you know, kind of feisty, I would say. We get to San Juan. Roberto Coliseum. That year, Satchel Paige. I heard a note about Roberto,

you know, the baseball player. Stadiums packed, pet rally, Tito Trinidad, their state police, stone face. Dave,

I look, just point, go that way. Okay. I know I'm an enemy's land. I'm playing chess, not checkers. And I know how to move my pieces. So I go down.

Okay, we got to go that way. We're at the airport, San Juan. All the people that was there working was flagging me. You know, Bobby, Bobby flagged me, you know, Bobby, Bobby flagged, they give me, so we walking, everybody going one way.

We get to Roberto Coliseum, motorcade, press conference starts, seven, eight minutes, went right in, packed. They get, you know, you can walk right in, fan, whatever.

So that was the intimidation ploy they was trying to do on me. I understood them saying why. Away from home. I'm outnumbered, correct? They got to calling certain names, you know, as far as the show and HBO got up there and spoke. This is a historic boomer boom. So we got through that.

And it's time for the fighters. I got up there. Said what I said. Did my famous throat slashing. Dex, heads coming off. Then Tito got up there. He said a couple of words and banged down,

when you threw my flag, he broke the treaty. So now I went into my act but serious. When you threw my flag in Spanish, they were crazy. They started throwing magazines, reporters, they taking pictures,

they looking at, so I seemed like everybody in their bleachers was coming. We ducking books, magazines. Now it's starting to get a little pushy-pushy. So Don came in the middle. Trinidad got away from the podium. Don, like today,

we take the fighter's hands. Hey, big fight's going to happen. Don waving the flag before he done this hand raising, which he didn't get a chance to do, rather, before he attempted to do it. He's waving the flag, and this is on video.

He's waving the flag. Tito broke, he broke the treaty. He ain waving the flag. Tito broke the treaty. He's supposed to say nothing. But he's home, right? I got to counter that. I got to counter that. I got to do something so risky

that it's going to, I hope, be world news. Don was fighting me not to get, I grabbed the flag from his hand. We tussled three, four minutes, three seconds, excuse me. It literally for a second was quiet. When that flag hit that ground. It is right here. Don telling me back up.

I'm pointing my finger at Tito. I snatched the flag out of Don's hand. His eyes open up. Everything is when the fans from the front was already coming down. That's why my guys, Jolere, was saying, come on, let's go. So they was taking me up to the balcony where I had to jump down in between the bleachers. Like I had to get down to the dugout, basically, to get free, to get away. Because they was coming up.

They was taking me up because they was coming past the reporters. They was coming from to get me going up. We couldn't do nothing but go up. And the only way to get down was to jump down like the dugout that you go through. And this is after you threw the flag down? Of course. The flag went down. When the flag went down, they were just coming.

And somebody hit me there, whoever the guy was. Nazeem Richardson is behind me with the kufi. Sharif. All my guys, two of my guys, the rest of the people just hit me on my back and throwing things at me. So they're just trying to now actually get away from

the crowd that's coming up. Where I'm going, I don't know. I jumped down at the opening and that's when the sheriff or the police said, look, that way. He wasn't helping. So we found a room, locked ourselves in a room, holding the door. Now, we're trying to lock the door, but the door is like a hard move.

They're pushing the door. We're holding the door. We've got to hold this door like this. Anybody that remembers that moment after they hear this podcast, it rained. Look, we all know how the tropical storms come when you over there in the islands. It rained so hard. around the time that we needed to get out of there and get straight to the airport, which they took us, motorcade, cops on both sides, with fans and cars riding on the side and behind us. It was like 95 on the East Coast.

It was like I-10 crossing West Coast to the East Coast. They was on our ass going to the airport. Austin, West Coast, Sedesa, they was on our ass going to the airport. That moment, that moment that I got on that airport, got to the airport and got on that plane, come before September 29th 2001 Tito had to train from my perspective I said this leading up to the fight when I had

interviews and mentioned it because the flag was brought up of course in the riot that I caused and instigated Tito had to hit that bag with that thought of hitting me. He had to train and run. He had to

be reminded because he always stayed in San Juan and trained. He rarely went to camp if he ever went to camp to train. He stayed in San Juan. He's the hero even to the day. And Tito had to hear something from whether his siblings, cousins, uncles, next door neighbor, whoever, wherever he was at for training camp in San Juan. Someone was reminding him.

The name that they was calling me is Diablo. him. The name that they was calling me is Diablo. They was calling me all kinds of stuff and I wore it like a badge of honor because I wanted to send a message and I wanted him to go through those four or five weeks left because of 9-11. They rebooted to the 29th. because of 9-11, they rebooted to the 29th. I wanted him to think about me every time he preparing for that fight because someone's going to remind him, even if it's a guy that he's getting groceries from. And I wanted him to think about what I did and what he has to do. So now, taking that strategy of Art of War,

because I want to fight a guy that's mad at me, not a guy that trained and planned and got a skill set of how to beat me, give me that angry man every day. I love the angry guy because he's going off emotions and I'm going off intellect and boxing. Business the same way.

If you can get him mad, you can get them mad, you can get them done. The intellect, the strategy, you trying to hit me and knock me out every time. The risk is always if I get hit, I'm done. But I take that because I bank on what? Defense makes a good offense. A defense make a good offense. A good defense is a good offense because of what?

You have to earn everything you get when you hit Bernard Hopkins, the executioner, the alien, the B-hop. Three brands in three decades. Three brands in three decades. Three brands in three decades. I can tell you a story about all these brands. I told you about the executioner. I told you the alien kept asking questions, reporters every time I was fighting in past 40s.

Why are you doing this? We know you got your first dollar. We know you live right. We know you're doing this. They got tired of seeing me. Not me winning. They got tired of me hanging around. And they started asking questions. I said, because I'm a fucking alien.

And I instructed my guy, Sharif. I said, Sharif, go get some Halloween. It's almost like the beginning of September. Get some green mat. I'm telling you, I'm on to something, y'all. Get some green.

What would they say? What would your camp say? They was looking at me like I was crazy. They thought I wasn't going to do it. See, this fucking guy is crazy. What's crazy is your whole career, you'd come in with the executioner's mask on. The executioner got retired.

Now that was done. Listen. Look at the mask. The mask came upon, the mask, the alien was born because of continue to be asked questions. And boxing. It's the only sport.

We see football. I mean, look. Brady, Brady. And Brady did a hell of a job still. Listen, I know how hard it is to compete and continue to do it. But it wasn't that as hard as for me because I knew what I needed to do and I knew my body wasn't the age

that my birth certificate says. My lifestyle was my age. Ooh. Ooh. My lifestyle was my age, not that birth certificate. And if you think that's just talking, then look at me.

Look at me now. Yeah. I'm four pounds over my fighting weight, and two of that is water. You got to give me two for just being water weight. Yeah. How do you not fight over six years, and you're four pounds over 175 your last fight? That's insane. I'm a fucking alien.

I'm an alien. How did you learn to eat correctly? What did you, like, what was your diet like? I didn't have a diet. I don't believe in diet. The diet is commercialism. I believe in lifestyle. I believe in lifestyle.

Eat to live, not to die. It's in the teachings, which I represent. It's in the teachings. Eat to live, not to die. You are what you eat. If you eat like a pig, then to me, that's who you are. Do you have that right to do that? Absolutely. But if you come to me and you ask me for advice, which I get all the time from people I know and some people I don't know.

You expect that people I know should know that my consistency and it's just who I am. I'm not a late nighter. I push myself to get rest early When I'm doing fights in different time zones As I leave here I'm headed to Vegas To do what? A fight

Under Golden Boy Promotion So I know how to take that same To relate on the questions That you just asked me I know how to take those moments of. I know how to take those moments of rest. I know how to take those moments of being active. I know how to take those moments on how to take care of myself like I'm fighting,

but I'm not anymore physically. This is a different type of resume for me to do. So I have to go ahead and do what? Keep my mind straight. Answers and questions. Well, questions is coming from everybody. It's looking how you answer it to see if they can fill something in that gave them information. if they could fill something in that gave them information.

You know, I look at some of the politicians and I say sometimes they ask the questions just to give you a lot but nothing. Right? Yeah. In boxing, there are a small percentage that legitimately ask you a question because they don't know.

And then most of the time, you got to at least be under the impression that they're trying to connect something that they already know. For instance, hey, Bernard, what do you think about Ryan Garcia suing Golden Boy? Oh, Bernard, what do you think about Oscar's not telling the truth about something? My head is always on a swivel, on the block. But having your head on a swivel in this perspective is not looking

because they see me looking. You know who they are when they know you're not looking or they think you're not looking. Put it that way. That's who they really are not when they're in your face most of the time not when they're in your presence but when they know that you or they think that you're not paying attention that's who they really are i'm watching them not even looking at them d block i know it's on my right right here in this studio i know it's on my right, right here in this studio. I know it's on my left. Obviously, I came in and I scanned it,

but right now I know it's to the right and the left, but I don't know it's in back of me. So I constantly, constantly put those messages out there when it's needed. Because they no longer can say I'm the paranoid one. They used to say I was boxing to try to justify that I'm speaking the truth. But if they could convince most who listen what they fed and move out on what they fed, whether it's newspaper, TV, I don't even watch TV no more. I'd be living in another country if I did.

Then the advantage is to them, not to you. But once you start doing something that boxing business people don't like, why do you think you're seeing those fighters having nervous breakdowns in the ring, crying, heavyweight contender? Having breakdowns on the side of the ring. Because there today, people that talks about Don King, and he all what I know he is.

I got testimony to that. You ain't got to convince me, but he ain't the only Don King out there of personality and track record that some might think that. There's only one mind and one entity. That did extraordinary job, whether you like it or not. They came from, just think about Don King's.

History. Here's a guy. few hours from New York, I mean Philadelphia, excuse me, Cleveland. Take the system, the law, and broke some. And had that long 50, 40,

40 plus something years to do with the rules that were set way before him and use it the way he'd done for so many years. Oh, Bernard, you sound like your patron. Nah, I'm just telling you he done something that's normally not done for a period of time

from a culture that looks like me. That's my point. That's extraordinary. Normally it's the mob. From Vegas all the way to Boston, Philadelphia and every city in the state, I mean state in the United States. city in the state, I mean state in the United States, to take those openings and opportunities to have a long extended decades of a run like that.

a run like that. Now, I know he was in his own 100%. Boss. But you get to the point we have a run like him so long, you get to pay your way out of paying somebody to first to start off. I'm pretty sure the Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston, I'm pretty sure the 80s, early 80s, the 70s, I'm pretty sure they had the guys with the suit and tie sitting there. I still think that Sonny Liston could have got up from the right hand

from Muhammad Ali. Yeah. It seemed like he was acting. That's Lewiston, Maine, right? Correct. Yeah. That seemed like the fix was in. And you talk about the fight with Dumanchenko.

You talk about the Haney fight that I'm pretty sure you see the same way I see. Yeah. Who won that fight. And other fights, maybe one or two more that was kind of bizarre, right? Yeah. In the last, right? Yeah. In the last few months. Yeah. And we briefly talked about it and we got on something else,

which how me and your mind, I think, works. I've been here for a couple of hours now. I got to understand how this thing is working out in the conversation of corruption, period. Period. That need to be brought to the forefront. They need to have a light flashed on the roaches. a light flash throwing the roaches and then they'll try to scatter and just gotta crush them before they get to their destination of retreat.

Yeah, this is a long about conversation that we got into corruption, but what I wanted to bring it back to was like your you were saying it was your lifestyle you're saying it was it was your discipline but it was you put in your body what you needed to survive and thrive eat to live not to die you didn't fuck around you didn't drink you didn't smoke you didn't party you always got your sleep don't eat bad food yeah don't mess with sugar i read everything I read everything. I read everything. You read books on nutrition.

I read books, everything. I read the back of the label of the stuff that I was purchasing. I take my Maltese. I never got into, I don't even like needles, let alone shots. B-12s, I take B-12s. I used to get the B-12 shots for energy. You're losing weight, whether it's water weight or not. I got 2.5%, 3% body fat.

Probably up to 3 now, right? So the sponge gets to the point where it is what it is. Now you're burning muscle. Now you're bingo. Now you're losing nutrients. You were one of the first fighters that I ever heard that was eating organic. Yes. And I was like, oh.

To today. Yeah. As an ex-fighter. Again, these things make me feel good. And these things, listen, I know how hard I need to work when I need to work. I know when I need to just blow some dust off my body a little bit just to get a little warmed up. So every day I'm not going hard to the day I'm not going hard.

I don't hit the bag. I ain't hit the bag since I retired. I ain't been in a boxing gym for what? Myself is weights to keep the muscle that we lose at a certain age. Every two years, year and a half, you lose certain percentage of muscle. I'm just trying to keep that depth. I'm going to look good in my suits. You understand? What do you do now for

working out? Well, I do some running twice a week. I do a long distance run three and a half, four miles depending on how my crew can hang in or how I feel. But three tops. I do 880s.

I do running, blow it out, 880s. I used to do that with Mackie Shulstone. Shout out to Mackie Shulstone from New Orleans. He worked with a couple of greats even, the tennis. So Mackie taught me a lot. He let my guy video eight weeks of training in New Orleans. He worked with Holyfield, correct? He worked with Bo, Riddick Bo.

He worked with Roy Jones Jr., wound up to heavyweight to fight John Ruiz. He worked with Dow Strawberry, the Hall of Famer baseball player. He was one of the first guys to do a lot of unconventional training. He worked with me, yes. He worked with me to build me up from 160 to 75, to the two-way classes we talked about. And he's still got to be in his mid-70s now, and great shape. I believe he's still in New Orleans.

We made history together. And one thing he did, I had a guy, right? Don't have him now, but his job in my camp was to film everything, whether we having an off day, which we do on Sundays, right, some Saturdays if I'm peaking. If my training boy, Fisher, see me sparring, he say, what did we just do, nine rounds? He ain't even breathing, and he's sharp on the 7th and 8th and 9th.

We got to take a break, take two days off. So we have our sparring partners fighting. So I used to have a guy named Linwood. He was basically like a camp entertainment. Heavy guy, liked to eat. He carries

the camera. Camera quarter is big. And he filmed the off days, the sparring the training that mackie gave me the permission to use everything mackie was building me up to be quick as a minute just like a middleweight don't lose none of that but have the structure of a light heavyweight slash cruiserweight which at that time was 190, now it's 200. Mackie Shulstone taught me above and beyond from a science and from his view to add on to mine. And today, I pass that on to young fighters who ask

or show them the video. Bingo. There it is right here. Different things he did. Did a lot of unconventional stuff. Unconventional stuff. And you might look at it and say, what this guy's doing boxing? You don't punch like that in the ring.

But the explosiveness that he was telling me, moments of my explosiveness, like there, jumping off that and jumping on that, has a lot to do with being in the ring when you're moving. And a lot to do when you, like that counter right there, that counter right hand, that counter right hand. These are the things that he used to be, the X-15, because, you know, he got that service mentality. And he's telling you about the bombs and they come in, how you have to get in that mentality of being at war. Like the off days on a Sunday, Mac used to come to Big Bear, where I was staying at Oscar's facility at the time.

Golden Boy was promoting the fight. And he would come and he would say, look, I'm going to fly out there. We're going to go to the base. And we're going to get in some number of, I can't remember, one of them fire fighting planes. He did the same thing to Roy Jones Jr. Me and Roy got in the Hall of Fame

at the same time two years ago. So he has the same experience. We talked about it. Mackie taught me you said the unconditional way of trainer coming in, showing you, building

you up maybe, doing this, doing that. But he took it to a sort of like a mental, you're at war, you have to be certain ways at certain time in the fight. You might get cut. You might get in survival mode but not show that you're surviving. How do you fight when you're tired? How do you fight when you're tired? How do you fight when you're tired? Do you fight to survive?

Means you fight just to keep the guy off you because you don't want him to hit you no more. That's fighting to survive. Or do you learn how to survive and still kick ass? I learned to do that. When you see inside, I was brutal inside with my opponents. I'll beat them and hit them every way they can imagine to break them down. They call it, as the fighter would say, I fouled him,

or he hit me here, he hit me there. Old school. Old school. If the referee is in the ring and we're fighting, we are fighting. Well, it's boxing.

No, we are fighting. When you it's boxing. No, we are fighting. When you fight, they set the rules. You make the rules when you fight. And if the referees sleep at the wheel and the referee don't see that you complaining about something that he didn't see, then that's on you. Because the same thing I do to you, you can do to

me. So once you start telling the referee that I did something to you, I already got your heart now. You want help. See, Joe, we always going back then, what you eat, what you don't eat, you look great which is secret

no i don't have a secret uh it's your diet no it's not that that's a lifestyle i'm gonna go back to this especially in sports any sports This right here is so important. The mind. I was so and still wrapped up into the mental because this controls everything. This controls this. This body doesn't control this. This body doesn't control this. They used to call weightlifting guys airheaded because they see this and they're walking around. But where's the strategy book? Where's the playbook?

You don't have none. You just bring in a sawed-off shotgun to a fight. And I'm coming with multiple opportunities to get you out of here in sports now if you hit me you hit me I know that's the risk but I got a better chance from getting you and I got more opportunities how I get you that is is important to me. So when you talk about your overall biological age, how much of it do you think has to do not just with the lifestyle, but with being defensively responsible? Because you never, you never really took beatings in your career. You had good fights, but there was no beatings. No. You were always defensively responsible. Yes. Because I want to be able to have life after boxing. And you maintain

that discipline while you're fighting, even in the heat of a battle. I maintain that discipline to not overreact and get excited, even when I'm the hunter or being hunted. Even if you look at that photo, that video that

just showed of you landing that right hand, your chin is tucked. Yeah. You're always tucked. Yeah. Yeah. And that habit, I was taught that. How was I taught that? In prison, everybody wanted to see their work.

They call it admiring your work. You up, chin up, and you, you're looking all good. Even hitting the bag. The way you hit the bag is the way you're going to hit your opponent. Your stance has a lot to do. Whatever you do outside the ring, you're going to do in the ring. Did you keep something under your chin, like a tennis ball? Ah, a tennis ball.

Yeah. Not only do you keep it under your chin when you're hitting the bag, the bag don't have arms. You got to visualize that bag got arms. But try doing it when you got a guy that can fight at least 60, 70%

to give you some good work. And you got to have that. And every time you drop it, you got to do an extra round. I got some rounds in. Brother Nazeem. Brother Nazeem. Brother, you seen the yellow shirt with the kufi? Correct.

Give me one more soldier. Give me one more round. All right. alright cause you know I ain't gonna say I ain't got it right put the ball under my and we rumbling

now it don't mean the guy knocked the ball out it's possible but you you let it go

right and I'm I'm punching and ducking and getting hit, but that ball better be there when the bell rings. Mm. Oh. Oh, that's so hard.

How many guys train like that? I don't, I haven't, I passed it on. I passed it on, I mentioned it. I passed it on the tennis ball. We call it the tennis ball. Ryan Garcia could use that advice. A lot of times he'll stand straight up. It's too late.

Yeah. Too late? Yeah. I know. He says, young guy, it's too late. Why it's too late? it's too late, I believe because of

the arrogance of saying what you need to do, knowing what you need to do, and doing what you need to do, and be consistent about it is

a whole other conversation. So either they do that or they don't. And if they don't, they're never going to make it all the way. Anybody they fight that recognizes it and discipline the weight to that time come and be real about it will be victorious. This doesn't say that championship of the world will escape him or he will never achieve that. Absolutely, he will in this era, especially. No disrespect. But in the same token, bad habits or a bad habit one day will kill you. I didn't need or kill your career.

career. I didn't need to be burnt four or five times once I got of knowledge that I didn't like that. I went through all the juvenile system in Pennsylvania, then state in 17. And I say that because once I got a taste and understood my value and understood what I need to do to be successful, now I'm here. I mean, this ain't dream talking. This getting up, putting that work in. Understand that everybody ain't going to be for you. And everybody ain't against you. But how you get the better of both, you let the adversaries of the other side,

you let the opinions, negative or not, you have a contest amongst those who say, why you want to do that? It's impossible. No, that can't happen. You're going to a two-way class. Man, you're too old. You're still fighting.

What about congratulations? Right. So I look at all these things in reflection sometimes, and I say to myself, I'm so glad I didn't take people's advice. But it's just so amazing that you didn't listen to anybody, and it almost like it steeled your resolve. Because when they were telling you you were too old for the Kelly Pavlik fight

and you knocked him out, and then you continue to fight at a world-class level after that, it's like he's not even done yet. Because everyone else, I mean, if we go back to some great fighters that when they, you know, I was always a big boxing fan, like way, way back in the 80s. When those guys hit 34, 35, 36, 37.

The decline is coming. It's basically over. And some of them even before that, you know? Some of them, you know, you just expected to see the decline, and the decline with you never came. Never. Never came. Never.

Never came. And even in your last fight, like when you fought Joe Smith, when you went through the ropes. Who's fighting this Saturday. Yeah, he's fighting this Saturday. Fighting Zotto. That's who I'm going out to promote. Going through the ropes like that scared the shit out of me.

Because, like, what was below those ropes? Was that just cement? Did you just fall right on the cement? Yes. What the fuck was going on there that they didn't protect the fighters more? One of the things of safety that has been elevated to a level than 20 years ago. But to me, there's more need to be done. I'm not the only fighter

either got knocked out of the ring or fell out of the ring. Right. But it should be padding across that ring. 100%. Even wrestlers that wrestle in college and sports, professional wrestling they have a a pattern that in case someone goes through the ropes that can take some of the shock did you land on your head yes god

damn yeah it looked terrifying and you know you you always flirt with falling out that ring you couple of feet up in the ring. Yeah. You know, you can paralyze yourself. You can chip something. You can die. You can die. Anything can happen. I was very fortunate.

Stayed in the hospital until the next morning. Did x-rays. Obviously, when I left L.A. because the fight was at the Forum, I got checked out by my personal doctor and was very, very fortunate to be checked in a checkbox of A+, A+, A+. But little big important things. Little thing is, A, I know y'all see it's a floor. Cement floor.

You hit that, your head going to crack like a coconut. So, again, to me, majority of the people that surround boxing is not around for boxers itself. They're around for money. Correct. And clout. And clout. When you fell through those ropes, man, it scared the shit out of me. Because I was watching the way you fell.

I'm like, damn, did he just land on his head on the concrete? Backwards, too. Yeah, backwards. Right through the ropes. And the ropes seemed loose. They weren't tight. They was loose enough to actually, you could see the stretch of the rope when I tried to grab it. I tried to grab it with the right hand.

Yeah. The fact that you fell that way, I mean, that is fucking crazy. I mean, that is a crazy way to fall through the ropes. See, that's the shot I took, and I'm back up. I backed up, and I'm getting pushed back. And boom. And look at the guy. He just rolled out of the way.

He got out of the way and let you fall right on your head. And that was the big thing, too. And that's like a four-foot drop. That's a big drop. I'd say five to four, yeah. But if you look at where how the guy just stepped away, didn't even put his hand up. Watch this. That guy could have caught you?

Of course. He ran. Did you ever see that guy again? No. What the fuck, dude? Wherever you are. I'm not saying he's not around. Wherever he is.

What the fuck? I don't even know what he'm not saying he's not around. Wherever he is. What the fuck? I don't even know what he look like. How do you not catch Bernard Hopkins? But now, since you show that, he's not going to even come to the fights anymore, probably. He shouldn't come to the fights. But he got out of the way. Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy.

He could have saved you. Yes. From falling. Yeah, could have saved the back of your head. Yeah. And possibly the fight would have went on, because I would have got back in the ring. Yeah, it could have saved the back of your head. Yeah. And possibly the fight would have went on because I would have got back in the ring. Yeah. Did you know going

into that fight that was going to be your last fight? No. You were 51? 51. 51. I mentioned that it was going to be my last fight, but I didn't know because if I would have got past Joe Smith,

what, I couldn't tell you right away that an opportunity of history would have made me think about the next and then got out. Right. But it was promoted. As your last fight.

Correct. Right. And, and And my family, people that were around me, we was all locked in on the last historic fight of my career with Joe Smith, who I never, even to that moment, underestimate him. I knew he was young, strong, big. A big light heavyweight.

Right? I'm not a big, you look at me right now, I'm not a big light heavyweight. But I started at light heavyweight in my career. If you look at my record in the weight, I melt down at 60. Because that's what my trainer said If you look at my record in the weight, I melt down at 60. Because that's what my trainer said. You a middleweight.

You got a little fat there. You've been in prison. That's water weight. You're going to eat better. You're going to run better. The atmosphere is better. I start slimming down. Oh, you're right. Middleweight it is. So I melt down. I did the opposite of

the rules. I melt down at 60 did the opposite of the rules. I melt down at 60. Normally, you come up two weight classes depending on the weight division because you grow into that weight or you eat your way into that weight. to outside of the ring, well, family, was a moment to say that, but we know. As fighters, we know when it's time. I ran out of things to do as far as history making. Because even though I wanted to do something and I'll beat that, you know, winning, like I've been successful most of the time, that day to be great is real.

And what's different, what was I thinking or what was different that night until it happened? Until it happened. And that's the difference. Because you don't count yourself out until you're out. And then I looked at it as time went on. You and I have been having a conversation for a few hours now. Like I got plenty of energy for a 58-year-old, right? Yeah.

With three decades under my belt of boxing, right? Yeah. It doesn't seem like I'm slowing down anytime soon, right? No. I really sat home. Weeks after the fight was over with. And steady taking, because, you know, the opportunity of the opportunist seeing an opportunist try to make that fight my life

at the end. I said to him, some industry or the atmosphere out there that had one of the fruit tans to throw dirt on my grave of legacy, I said, y'all forgot something. Or y'all want to forget, but I'm not going to let you forget. If you look at my life up to now in boxing and starting off before I became a champion in boxing. I said I lost my first fight as a pro. I lost my last fight as a pro.

Everything in the middle is a story, motivational, never give up story. But you should be worried about what I do next. Because the way I started shows ain't the way I'm going to end. So in this third or fourth chapter of my life, at a young 58, fast approaching 59, the way I started shows that my character doesn't say I'll submit

to the way it's going to play out or end. So now the fight is different. The fight ain't in the ring physically. The fight is around a powerful, controlling, and that's boxing attitude

when things blunt in your face. That the fight I got now is the fight of Satchel Paige and his era in baseball. The fight I have now is the fight of Satchel Paige and his error in baseball. The fight I have now is the fight that Jim Brown, Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, and a lot of other greats at that time stood up when they needed to stand up at that moment for that cause. I'll put them on notice before I'm putting them on notice again just because it's fresh. That they're going to hear it again,

that this fight is different than the fight that got me here. This fight is about here, discipline of patience, knowing how to use and strategize your chessboard and the pieces that's on that board, if they're willing to do what's been done for so many centuries, all the way up to now, then the only one thing I needed more for this fight is my health and my memory. They better hope I keep it.

And that's the warning. The warning is that I am the satchel page of this era. I'm gunning for that legacy. I'm the Muhammad Ali when he spoke of his era for things that he spoke, Vietcom never called me a nigga. He said that in the 60s in this country.

Well, that was one of the reasons why he was so important culturally. And that's why my idol, other than Marvin Hagler, when I say idol, I'm talking about idol and not idol in him as my God. I know him as an example, right? That there are some in any aspects of life that,

that, that will risk it all. And those who listen and hear this and have already said it, I've done that. Listen, if, if it was 50 to a hundred100 million made in my career to play the game and eventually they'll trick me out of it later,

that was left on the table because of this. Not because of the emotions, because of this and because of this and because of that. Because once I understood, I wanted to keep my mouth closed. I said, oh, this is how it is. But I needed power before I speak. I needed to be world champion. And my first world championship fight

that we didn't talk about was Roy Jones Jr. in 1993. RFK Stadium. I told you about the memory. Under the Riddick bow, the heavyweight champion fighting Jesse Ferguson. He was the main event. I was the co-main.

Roy was the house fighter of HBO. Multimillion dollar contract. I was known as the guy from Philadelphia Tough gonna give some work from the penitentiary. You know, you gotta to have a villain.

You got to have the nice guy. And Roy gave me a lesson. A lesson of what? I wasn't ready. Boy, when I got that opportunity a year or two a year and a half later the IBF same title

vacant by Roy Jones Jr. Roy went up to 168 the next weight up I'm in line as the number one number two contender I fight in Segundo Mercado in Quito, Ecuador. He can push that fight up here.

See the first fight with Segundo Mercado, which means second in Spanish. I called him second at the press conference. You would never beat me. I'm first, you're second. Segundo, your mother knew you was going to be second all your life. So we go to Quito. Hostile environment. Quito at that time was at war, conflict with Peru.

But I was sold out by a promoter to get more money to bring me there to fight an Ecuadorian in Ecuador. Joe, I get knocked down two times, got up, fought my way back up, finished the fight. Here I'm in Ecuador being sold out by a promoter. I get to Ecuador 11 plus thousand feet above sea level. Probably higher than Denver, Colorado. Couldn't breathe the first second round after I exhausted myself to the max early on and fought my way with Segundo Mercado for the first fight we had and get a draw in Ecuador,

fighting the Ecuadorian. I take it. I won the fight. They would have killed me. That's what the rumor was. If you would have got that decision in Ecuador, even though I fought my way back from 7 to 12,

almost had him out, if you look at the video, in a very hostile environment, if they would have gave me that fight, we wouldn't have left Ecuador. So they call it a draw. The IBF mandated that the fight must happen in 120 days.

They had to get the work right away, but the energy was different than going to Ecuador. Don King wasn't sure of Segundo beating me in America if he couldn't beat me in his hometown in Ecuador. So the promotion was kind of froggy. But we went through the process and I became champion

in Ecuador. I mean, in America. In 95. Knocking out Segundo Mercado, and Land over Maryland, and then defended that title for 12 years. That was the first IBF title I had.

Yeah. That IBF title, based in New Jersey, East Orange, New Jersey. That IBF title was the title I had all the way up to the 20s in defense. That was the first title. And the politics and the confusion of boxing, there are so many belts. Yeah. There's so many belts. Yeah.

Which makes it limited to be Undisputed until Undisputed today is being talked about more than ever now. Did you watch the fight the other day? Which one? Canelo and... Yes. Did you see they put the screen up, Bernard Hopkins, as the last or the reboot of the Undisputed. And then they had all the other names. And the Full Belt era, and the Full Belt, Full Belt era, my name is up there first. Now, Showtime ain't, even though I've been on Showtime more than I've been on HBO,

but the politics ain't there for me because of the players they work with. I get it. But it was hard for them to try to cut that out. They couldn't. I sat home and I laughed. I had laughed and I thought I had awesomes. I laughed. I said because I know for a fact

that if they can take that name and share less light on Bernard Hopkins then it was great and even though you didn't ask this my case in point is this all the stuff I told you earlier what I just said now

the Ryan Garcia and Tank fight we was the second promoters they put up the bigger money big fight what I just said now. The Ryan Garcia and Tate fight, we was the second promoters. They put up the bigger money, big fight. It was a PBC, right? Card. Al Heyman card. I ain't afraid to say his name.

They tried to oust me. You follow my beat. They try to out-put everything. I waited for about two weeks. Strategy. Art of War. Sun Tzu. I waited.

You didn't ask, but you let me talk. They slayed us. We didn't come to the dressing room. You heard about that? Oscar and them didn't come to Ryan's dressing room. We abandoned them. I don't know if you heard. We posted, abandoned them.

We didn't lose. We look like dish bags, right? We look like scumbags. He loses now to promoters, you know, and if you got any other agenda, any other agenda from whatever you got it from or why you have it, this is your time now to show yourself. So I waited, waited, waited. And credit to Joy, my assistant slash fiance, she said, I got all the video.

You didn't know I was video on the corner of everything. Why would he say y'all didn't come? So I said, you did what? She said, I got video. The moment he hugged you

and he said sorry to you that it didn't work out and you was telling them that Oscar got a death threat and the bodyguards took him out. She's video, in the dressing room video. I said, you have it. I said, show it to me.

Because we getting slayed public opinion. I still got footage I ain't even throw out yet. She said, here it goes. So I looked at it. I said, yo, I need this. Let's take our time, take a deep breath. I still got footage I ain't even throw out yet. She said, here it goes. So I looked at it. I said, yo, I need this. Let's take our time, take a deep breath. Strategy over emotions.

Intellect. Intellect over emotions. Strategy over emotions. Let's put all this together, take a deep breath. I said, first of all, thank you. Right? Look for, you know, not now, but a raise coming soon. I say now, you're good with this Instagram stuff.

I'm totally, like I just come home from penitentiary. I'm lost still. Still. I can't keep up with it. Good. My 12-year-old son can, but I... It's good to not keep up. But I just can't. I can't misspelling words.

It's just crazy this up certain days and make it make sense not just throw it out there. We're going to, what are you, so we, he said everything he needed to say. Now we got to come with, what do you mean not in this corner?

What do you mean we was missing? What do you mean we didn't show up at the press conference? They wouldn't let me in the fucking ring. If you go to my Instagram, you'll see they, they, they, they, they,

no, you can't. They blocked me from getting in the ring. What they expected, what they expected from me, watch this move. Thank you, producer. Great guy over there. Watch this move. Bernard can't come in the ring.

Bernard can't come in the ring. Tom Brown. That's Al Heyman's flunky right there. He's a promoter license, and Al Heyman hides behind him. in the ring. Tom Brown. That's Al Heyman's flunky right there. He's a promoter license. And Al Heyman hides behind him. So his name is Tom Brown. Al Heyman hides behind him because by the Muhammad Ali Act that I stood up for, it doesn't cover advisors. It doesn't cover consultants.

So now those lawyers, because he has a Harvard law degree, Al Heyman. He hires promoters, especially Tom Brown, who comes from the Goossens in Denver, Colorado, known very well. He sat next to me. He said, here, Joy and me. I switched seats with Joy because I told her, Tom Brown is the eyes and ears while we sit in there. They had controls of the tickets. They had control of the show because they the leading promoters. P-B-C. So I was quiet ringside.

All the fighters from their side was behind me, so I was in their row. That's the seats, the section they put me at. Even Oscar was to my right. They had me right near the corner, turnbuckle, because if you look at any Golden Boy fights, I'm always in the middle because we have control

and the fighters always look out. They got trainers, don't look at me, but they do look. Sometimes the fight mode come in and I can't help myself. I'm learning to be more subdued while I'm sitting watching as the promoter. So they had my seat where the turnbuckle, the corner. Was in your way. Correct.

So you couldn't see. So, yes. Yes. So I watched from my seat, leaned to the right, which I had a slightly better view. But those moments of the auto war, this ain't complaining. They was prepared, but I was prepared too. They knew I was coming. They knew the energy I was bringing. See, I wasn't coming.

Listen, Oscar personality is not my personality. That's the best way I can explain it to you. If I see something, I'm going to speak on what I see. I'm not going to run and tell somebody what I can do and say myself.

To me, that's a man. They was prepared because we did business. Before Al Heyman branched off to do his company,

he took 80, 90% of Golden Boy fighters because those fighters, including Floor Mayweather, was under what? Golden Boy. So he took, per se, if you're into music business, he took his catalog and started PBC. I didn't go. It's some bad blood. Because everybody knows the situation, even to the day.

Oscar definitely understands and know it. I was a nail in a coffin. If they would have got me to leave based on a contract that they gave me to leave. What was in it for me. based on a contract that they gave me to leave, what was in it for me. And I seen that it was crowded over there at PBC. And I still, even to today,

understand the process is always a risk, but I'd rather be on this side, even with the baggage. They wanted to predict our demise. We're going to be in federal court in six months. Oscar reminds me all the time. Remember, they said this, partner. They're not going to last six months. He going to see. They came back door, they thought, trying to poison the waters.

So there's just a bunch of dirty business that goes on. Filthy. Dirty. That's a good word. Filthy. Yeah. So, 20 plus years later,

a lot of things have been changing in boxing. It ain't breaking news, but a lot of people don't know. A lot of big networks weren't already left. HBO's gone. Yeah.

This is what I was leading to. Yeah. There's a whole churn as you aware of the churn you haven't been in Austin a year yet have you

three years three years right three years right yeah but it was a reason to change from there to here.

I assume. Boxing is changing and have changed even more. So one left for 40 plus years, HBO, correct? And you being a boxing fan, I know that kind of hurt it. Yeah. And you being a boxing fan, I know that kind of hurt it. My prediction is that Showtime is finally ready to pack it in. That's not good.

But it's not a death sentence for those who pull their bootstraps up. And if you don't have no boots, find some. Because this is a man-thinking game, not checkers. Do you think the future is in streaming? Showtime will pack up boxing only. I'll be surprised if they got

another year left. That's unfortunate because that leaves DAZN, that leaves ESPN Plus. It's not as many options. Now, that's where the creative, creativity has to get in

play now. You say you are, you are who you are. This goes for everybody. It's all, we all got blood on our hands in some way.

Hold up. This is where the creativity now kicks in. You say who you are, you on the block now, you say who you, okay.

First of all, you're doing too much talking so he ain't real. You gotta get tried right away. This is the trying time now. Let's see who now can sink or swim. Golden Boy also.

All of us. So now this separates the men from the fakes. Now, if you've been frauding, if you've been frauding, hiding behind, and you had a time limit when you're going to exit and you prepare yourself, then that's one thing that should work good for that person that thinks that way.

There are fighters on the other side that got to pay every time they fight in any other entity. Joe Rogan has a promotion in boxing. You got 10 fighters on your side. Just say,

I'm Golden Boy. I got fighters on my side. You ain't seen because you hired somebody to do your business for you so you can hide back and hide behind the scenes. But you have knowledge of law so you know how to manipulate certain things. So if you risk having a contract Monday, but knowing things can change as time go on, you want to tie your Campbell. What do you mean? Well, if the well runs dry, if that fighter goes and fight at another house, another promotion that you ain't no longer controlling, the fighters now start to look at the contract and say, I got to give up 35%. I got to give up 40% of my purse,

even though Bob Ram is doing a fight. Golden Boy is doing a fight. That's what promoters do. Now you're realizing at the wrong time, 9 out of 10 at the telling in your career. Whether you're in your 30s, you mentioned it, the age, normally 30, 34, 35, you're normally packing up,

ready to roll out, trying to get a couple of paydays here and there. Yeah. But there's a real bad taste in a lot of business people, TV, and also fighters that realizing everything was great. You bought your car, your bail, don't you? You got to upkeep.

You got to keep that lifestyle or you got to understand how to live different. And that's the shock that they're seeing now, that they've been manipulated, bamboozled. And the only thing, which is not only, but the only thing that some would say to justify the Don Kings of this era, they got paid. They got paid. You give ignorance money, they're going to be more ignorant than they was when you gave them money,

and what if they gave them money? They ain't going to be smart because you gave them money. Other than the business of boxing, though, how do you feel about the sport? How do you feel about the sport today, like the business of boxing, though, how do you feel about the sport? How do you feel about the sport today, like the caliber of fighters? I'm sure you must be a fan of Terrence Crawford. Yes. One of my favorite guys to watch.

Phenomenal. Best switch hitter since Marvin Hathaway. Yes, yes. He tried to promote that fight, and he had a choice like we all do, and he chose to do what he needed to do, and he was successful with it. a choice like we all do and he chose to do what needs to do and he was successful with it absolutely a technical technical serious mentally strong and definitely can be around as long as he want to yeah badass yeah he's a bad man and there And there's a good crop of people like that today. Tank is another one.

Yes. Phenomenal fighter. Yes. Look, Kid Austin is right on the heels. Kid Austin. Correct. Bruce. And let me tell you, look, I can promote a lot of fighters.

You're expecting me to mention a whole bunch of names. Got this week, Z Zoto making a comeback after getting dominated, right? Real bad overseas. But that was the first shot in the CIA. He bounced back now. This is the career going forward. Morgia.

We got, it's a lot of talent even on other side of the street. The next house, next promotional house. There's so many fights But you know what Joe? Doesn't mean squat if they don't get made right you and fans around the world want to see the best Fighting the best I did a segment for four episodes of

interviews Interviews rather than that episodes segment for four episodes of interviews. Interviews, rather. Not episodes. On Fight News. Talking about fights that need to be made, and the first one out of the gate, pitting the pressure, running this mouth here,

was Tank Davis and Ryan Garcia. It's there. How did you think that fight was going to play out? I thought the fight was going to play out, and I anticipated the fight playing out where Ryan would use all the attributes that he had to his best ability. What I mean by that is stay out. Length.

Stay outside. Speed. Speed. Remember, don't admire your work right don't be the don't be the squirrel with your head up looking for something right keep it down he mentioned it working in training that they was working on that there was focus on that reporters was asking you're going to keep your head down of course that's the easy thing to ask but that's what he was known for i i wanted and i believe ryan when he said he's going to box him he's not going to get into his emotions and try to show bravo like he's getting to a shootout

you're getting a shootout he's's done. Tank carries the power. He's sneaky. Explosive. Explosive. Yeah. You think you're doing something, and he rides off that overconfident, where now he recognized,

this old school. He's so interesting, too. Baltimore Merlin. He's so old school. You know who old school is? Yeah. Anybody that's old school is? Yeah. Anybody that's throwing punches is open to get hit. Anybody and everybody that throw punches, you leave an opportunity.

It's who get there first. It's like fencing. Mm-hmm. When you throw punches, no matter how straight straight no matter how your stance are when this becomes away from your body and things that you need to protect the ribs the chin it's always an opening it's always opening who's who get there first and tank is so good tank is so good tank will give you something that's really not there. It's literally, you know, you think it's, you know about the three top, the ball and the three top hustle?

Mm-hmm. You think he showed it to you. You think he did a couple of these. It's not there. He shows you something that is like an illusion. He shows you something that is like an illusion. Might not be the first time once he tried you and you go for it, but it's coming. And that's how he sets you up.

He sets traps. Yeah, he sets traps and he's got ridiculous one-punch knockout power too. He's just such an interesting fighter because his style is so different from everybody else. He's so conservative in the early rounds. Throws so few punches. And he lets you work. He lets you work and you're backing up and you're always afraid of that power. And he's just moving in, trying to find that opening where he just gets in there on you.

Your mind is burning energy. Yeah. You physically burning energy because you know, right, even if he just hits you in the arm, you know based on what you've been hearing through the whole press conference and through the whole fights he had before then, yourself, that you better not get hit. See, power rules everything around you. One thing about power, you're going to lose all the fights fights all the rounds in dead power come on right that would make

the foreman Mike Tyson Deontay Wilder power rules yeah I got one shot and it's over I could be losing a whole I could be losing an army to the 12th round and hit you with that power.

And to get to the 12th, 11th, 10th, 9th, 8th, you're walking in treading danger. You're walking through a minefield that any time, any false, any bad move, it's over. Fighting tankers like that. Yeah. One last thing to talk to you about before we get out of here. What do you think about this crazy fight between Tyson Fury and Francis Ngannou?

What do you think about them setting up that fight? I like Tyson Fury, though, man. I like Tyson Fury. I love Tyson Fury. I like Tyson Fury because of his unorthodox, even the way he look. Everything. The way he looks, the way he talks. Now, I ain't got to explain anything else because we're on the same page. unorthodox of even the way he look. Everything. The way he looks, the way he talks.

We're on the same page and I believe that the world understands that this ain't the true. This ain't what we're used to looking at when we talk about heavyweights. You're thinking of a guy you want a guy look like Lennox Lewis in his prime. Chiseled. Look at him. He likes tricking you too.

He shows that big belly. No, listen, he's like the guy Fred who do my mechanic. He handles all. But I'm telling you. He's an animal. He's an animal. And he's promotable. Yeah.

His personality. Oh, for days. I mean, you can't like. But what do you think about Francis Ngannou having a fight with literally one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, and he's never had a professional boxing fight? Again, how did he get there? Well, he got there from being the UFC heavyweight champion. Who? But that UFC.

Yeah, exactly. Listen, I can visualize you and I sitting right here, right? You got the Dana White right now. Listen. If you, listen. I can visualize you and I sitting right here, right? You got the, you're Dana White right now. Okay. Okay, you're Dana, and I consider Dana White a friend. Right? I really do. He's definitely a sports fan and everything.

Oh, yeah. But, look. Half of this is show. The other half, because of Tyson Fury, only is a boxing match. For a belt, I assume, right? There's some belt. Exactly. They got somebody to put something together.

I got you. It's a money payday. It's a payday. Yeah. Right? Canelo payday. Yeah. It's a payday.

Yeah. Right, Canelo? Payday. Yeah. This does nothing other than payday for Tyson Freire. He lose to a UFC guy, which I'm saying he won't. I bet everything I love. I bet everything I love.

Yeah. Entertainment on a higher level because of Tyson Fury. Right. But also because of the novelty of this UFC heavyweight champion

leaving the UFC and securing this boxing fight. Anybody that leaves the UFC undefeated or not undefeated would not be successful on that level or any level where a fighter on a boxing level

has a heartbeat and possibly a pulse is going to be victorious. That's why it becomes a show more than the real deal. And that's why it's not even being talked about as a heavyweight fight from a heavyweight fight that we know of. Not from the boxing community. Correct. Right. Because we don't sanction that, man.

But does it upset you that this guy jumps in front of Usyk, jumps in front of Joshua, jumps in front of anybody else in the division and gets to fight Tyson Fury? Or do you think, hey, good for him. He gets his payday. Because that's how I feel about it. Because I love Francis, and I'm happy that Francis is going to get a whopping bag. But let me, now, that's emotional. Yes. But in the sports, and where I come from, I'm biased too.

Yeah. I think in Tyson Fury, Fury has a fruit top people that me and you would love to see in spite of who he's ready to fight correct Usyk is the big one that's the big one if Usyk is not available I think that

Tyson Fury would beat him what about Wilder I mean Joshua yes right yeah there's

heavyweights out there that's in the top five I only say ten that are that are better and have more credentials than what's happening

Andy Ruiz correct yeah who to me why do you think he's trying to get a fight now yeah right than what's happening. Andy Ruiz. Correct. Yeah. Who, to me, why do you think he's trying to get a fight now? Yeah. Right?

He's trying to get a fight as we speak right now. And not a big heavyweight, right? In some cases, you'll think a blown-up cruiserweight, right? Not a big guy, right? Right. You'll think they'll be chopping at the bit. They're going to make millions of dollars. That fight there is more credibility

and more, I guess, what people want to see than entertainment that Tyson Freary is ready to show this week. And he gets a knockout within five rounds. He thinks so. Oh, yeah.

One other guy I want to talk to you about that I don't think gets enough credit is Arthur Bitterbeef. That guy's a motherfucker. People don't know him. I mean, he can't secure that big fight. And that's one of the reasons why? Dangerous. Dangerous.

19-0, 19 knockouts. But this is the thing about the generation of fighters, not all, but most. They don't want an L on their record. Well, what about your legacy? They want the bag, of course, but they don't dare to be great. They want, most of them, want to fight the fights that they have a better chance on winning. And when you tell most of them of this generation about history, they look at you like you got three heads like history like like you talking late 20s early 30s or younger you're talking about 25 years from now they're going

to be and this is legit conversation they're looking at you like 25 you're talking to a 19-year-old who don't understand that time goes by so fast. So fast. Time goes by so damn fast in boxing. I started at 25. Something fucking heard of. I started at 25. I had the room based on lifestyle, based on offense, defense, based on my mental, I stressed it out.

Stressed it out better than anything. And part of that time, you got to look at the time I started late as a pro. Not as an amateur, but as a pro. I ain't win no AAUs and no Golden Gloves and no Olympic gold medal, but I had local fights in the city, little tournaments here and tournaments there. But I look at all these things to answer questions that's asked all the time.

The way I just said to you and explaining to you about all these things, whether it's the boxing politics, the fights that's, the fighters that's fighting now, each other, the fights that's scheduled to fight right now. This is a great time for good fights to be made.

Let's make them. Let's make them. Bernard, you're a legend. It's an honor to have you on here. I really appreciate you being here. Appreciate it. Best of luck with everything. Thank you very much, sir. Yes, sir. For real. It's an honor.

Yes, sir. I've always been a Giant fan. Thank you so much. Bernard Hopkins, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much. Bye, everybody. Thank you.