The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #160 with Francis Ngannou

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Francis Ngannou is a professional mixed martial artist and boxer signed to the Professional Fighters League. www.francisngannou.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. All right, we're up. What's up, man? Good to see you. Good to see you too. You have had a lot of experiences since the last time I saw you. Yeah.

A lot of things happen. That's why I like, I always about writing my book and chapter keep adding up, adding up, adding up. And yes, every time you feel like you're just maybe in the beginning or in the middle. Yeah, I don't think so. I think you're definitely only in the middle. Yeah, in the middle. It's not the beginning, but it's a lot of experiences. So tell me about leading up to the Tyson Fury fight. Oh, the Tyson Fury fight, that was great. You know, I was

just there living the dream. You know, get this big moment, get that fight that I've been waiting for four years get that fight that I've been waiting for four years. Pete The fight that everybody said you were never going to get. Ndaho Yes. Pete Which is crazy, like, thank God for the Saudis, because they are making things happen, which is really incredible. Ndaho They are making things happen.

Pete Incredible. Ndaho And it's not like, who is this, who is that, you know, it's like, okay, we want it to happen, then make it happen. Yeah, because everybody wanted to see it happen, but it was one of those things where everybody dismissed it. Everybody said, that's not gonna happen. Tyson Fury's the heavyweight champion. Why would he fight a guy

who doesn't have any professional boxing matches? That's crazy. That's not gonna happen. And it happened. And then everybody said, you didn't stand a chance. And then when you knocked him down the second round, everybody was like, holy shit. And when you're dancing over him, when he went down. Yeah. But you know, I think, uh, a lot of people, uh,

do mistake something, you know, and I always tell people like, not because you're a fighter that you walk in the ball and there's this guy coming to you maybe this fat guy coming to you and then you stand there and because you're a fighter don't think like he's a threat everybody could be a threat you better step take two step back and then like see your distance and get ready to defend yourself you know you don't, uh, if everybody hits you, anybody hits you, you're going to get hurt. Right. You know, true. So yes, I might

not have been doing boxing. I'm not a boxer, but still I'm a fighter. And even if I wasn't a fighter, you know, I can hurt and I can harm somebody. You're a big motherfucker. So I was watching it and people was like no he stand no chance he has zero chance. I'm like there is not a fight on earth that zero chance that element of zero chance doesn't exist. I mean if you look at it I'm a man guy and then two men together someone might have more techniques might know the sport, but even if I never been in the gym, you still better watch out. I still have a chance.

Maybe not as much, maybe not equal chance, but I still do have a chance. But you can't dismiss someone like you and drop your guard and think that you don't have any chance. You shouldn't dismiss anybody. No. We used to be in the... I have seen fight that people show up and then they pretend like oh they're going to fight. They have stone in their hand and if you dismiss them because you think like oh he's a small guy, he hits you with the stone in his hand. Right, right, right, right.

Well by the time you find out that he has stone in the hand, you are in the ground. Right, exactly. But it was very clear to me that you had some interesting strategies when you went into that fight. First of all, you were fighting a lot of it in Southpaw. Why did you decide to do that? Was that something that you guys had devised before the fight? You thought it would be an interesting strategy? Or is that just like the way you like to box? I like to box like that but I also thought he was a strategy that he would be a good strategy as well because like basically on this Tyson Fury fight I think the South Pole was a big component

in that fight because every time that I realized that every time that I switched to South Pole, he was thinking. But when I switched back to orthodox, he was pressing. So when I wanted to take a break, I switched to South Pole. What was it like to, I mean, there's obviously you've had many MMA fights, you've been very successful UFC heavyweight champion as an MMA fighter. But what was the difference in the feel of like going into a professional boxing fight with a guy like Tyson Fury, who is the heavyweight champion in the world and one of the greatest

of all time? I mean, he's absolutely one of the greatest heavyweight boxers ever. Yeah. But he was completely different. You know, the environment is different. The organization is different It's different to be step in the ring For the first time okay, you have all this spotlight on you, but you're in the ring feels different

Sometimes you're in the cage. You're used to the cage to lean on that cage You have that feeling you you you grab the cage also you lean on that cage, you have that feeling, you grab the cage. Also your shoes off. Yes. And then in the cage, you know that you can do more, you can wrestle, you can do this and you're comfortable with that. But you're in the ring for the very first time, somewhere that you've never been, it feels different.

And then you're thinking like, oh man, how am I going to do? Am I going to be able to do three rounds? Am I going to be able to do four rounds? I don't know. I can find out just now. There's not a way back. You're gonna find out.

So by every round, you have to think about like, okay, how am I doing? This is the first round then second round okay so this is the fifth round I'm not too bad so I think I can get there you know just go like that. So you're concerned about endurance? Yes, very concerned about endurance. He was 10 rounds and I didn't know how I gonna be feeling after the third round. You turned it on the eighth round. In the eighth round, you hit him with some big shots. Yeah.

That was one of your best rounds. Yeah, the eighth round was pretty good. Then I get a little... Then I pull my feet off the gas on the ninth round. And then the tenth round, I'm like, you know, like, oh, I feel good. This this the last round, right? Feel good? That's when I started to do like those,

the Superman punch or the stuff. For me, he was already a win. Yes. He shocked the world, that's for sure. Did you have any mock fights in the gym? Like, did you bring any professional boxers and have like try to go 8-10 rounds in the gym? Sparring. Yeah. But like with no headgear, like smaller gloves.

Did you do anything like that replicated in actual professional boxing match? No. We just do like a normal sparring. Have different sparring partner sometimes to push me but we didn't do anything like that you know as an MMA fighter we used to spar without gloves without headgear and stuff but you get into boxing everything is so strict so specific and then you get to the point that you kind of like ask yourself like why taking a chance to hurt now and get pulled up of the fight. I'm just going to train. I train the best that I could, that I can. Then I will get there, see, figure

out what's happened. And so, but from the time the negotiation started to the time of the fight, how much time did you have to prepare for this? For the negotiation? No. So you had the negotiations and then once it was signed, how much time did you have to prepare for the actual fight itself? And how much were you preparing already hoping you were going to have a boxing match? is different to like thinking that oh I might have a boxing match I want to have a boxing match done when you have a boxing match and knowing who you are going to fight is something different you know you prepare the real preparations that now and between the moment that we signed the fight to the

fight itself he was over three months because I know that he wasn't my my fear you know and I didn't have any and it's not like I was in the gym training boxing every day so it was basically four months so I that's crazy yeah I took it in a moment for a pre camp I came back here because I was in Cameroon at time then I came back here my team and I we work on like everything start like a pre-camp you know just train to get in shape start like sparring and then we started we started the sparring with three rounds the first sparring was like three rounds. Move around, see. Then we started to go work round after round, you know. What I thought when I saw the fight

is imagine if you had just gone into professional boxing like 10 years ago, how well you would do. If you, no MMA, no kicking, no wrestling, just professional boxing For you to do that well I don't against a guy like Tyson Fury who's that good I don't really know and those are the stuff that I don't usually think about I think life sometimes just had a path for you you follow the path that your destiny that life has for you and you just be

grateful because regardless of the fact that I didn't start 10 years earlier, I didn't have that opportunity 10 years earlier, meanwhile I had to discover MMA and have a great journey in MMA, have a great experience in MMA you know. So it's something that I will not regret that I will not beat that up over the opportunity of starting boxing early. Things just happened I took it I took my chance I do what I can do it's all about like figure out how far I can go what I can possibly do you know so I'm not 18 years 20 years old guy that I dream in to have a career into this but I still want to know what I can possibly do at this

point of my life yeah what was the experience like when it was all over like what did it feel like when you just went ten rounds and a lot of people including myself thought you won? Yeah, I feel very great you know like regardless of the result for me knowing what I was going through what was in my mind like what's gonna happen into this fight first round second round then I get in the tenth round. Good. And I feel like I wasn't doing bad. So for me that was a win. That was a satisfaction, you know. The result was other part of it which didn't matter most. But I knew already that if ever we get, because I couldn't guarantee that we would get in the tenth round, but if ever he get, because I couldn't guarantee that we would get in the 10 round, but if ever we get there,

I wasn't expecting to win. Definitely not. When you dropped him in the second round, I jumped off the couch. I jumped in the air. I will say something. You know, like, I won this from the moment that they accepted the fight,

that they signed the fight, because I think I was very underestimated. They didn't know that I could have do something. If they have known that beforehand, maybe this fight would have never happened. Because they would have seen a risk and they wouldn't want to take that risk. So this was basically like, let's say zero risk. And it probably would have been different too because there was no footage to prepare

for you, right? Like the only footage that he could prepare was watching you fight in MMA yes he was there it is why are you dancing in front of him when we started fight when the referee say okay you guys go to your corner. He said let me take you to school Mmm, so that was the dancing was like I think you own you're a bad professor That that was the only reason why I did that he's a funny guy man, he's funny he's very entertaining Yeah, he's so entertaining. He's so entertaining. He's just a show guy. Yeah. That's happened to really, like, be very talented in boxing, good at it. But he's an entertainer.

Oh, I mean, he's... the way he sells it. I mean, even the way he, like, was playing with his fat, like, standing next to you, like, rubbing his belly. Like, sometimes he will insult you. I don't know if he's insulting. Like sometimes he will insult you. I don't know if he's insulting you or if he's making fun, but it's just funny that you have to laugh. You really have nothing to say about it. Yeah.

He kept talking about how big your dick must be. He was just, he's a funny dude, man. He's a funny dude. He said that since the first, he started, said those things the first time we met. And he would pull some stuff up sometime that I'm like, what? And I really have a hard time understanding what he's saying.

Oh, I do. So I speak a lot. And English is my first language. And I have to translate to tell me what he said. His English is hard to understand. The Gypsy King, he's quite a character. Did you hang out with him at all after the fight? No, we didn't hang out, but I think we both respect each other.

And I think he always, he always, I mean, he was entertaining, but he always show respect. And I know that he respected me even from the beginning. You know, it's not like this was after the fight even from the beginning he could have said everything that he would say to make his show to laugh make people laugh you know but he's very respectful that's cool yeah um was there any talk after the fight about a rematch yes there is a uh there was even a rematch close. How do you call it? First regard of rematch close. There was something in the contract about the rematch close.

Was that if you beat him? Was if I get in the eighth round. Really? Yeah. Wow. So the deal of the rematch was if I get in the 8th round. So why didn't the rematch materialize? I think it's the timing.

I think it's a matter of timing. Hmm. Yeah. So... So you go from that fight to the Anthony Joshua fight. Yes. So tell me about the preparation and leading go from that fight to the Anthony Joshua fight. Yes. So tell me about the preparation and leading up to that fight. In fact, the preparation for the Anthony Joshua fight, then I started, you know, after having

like four months of training camp for the Tyson Fury fight, I had this feeling, you know, and then I get a little, I get a little confident now I know how it works like ten rounds and then was pretty good you know the Tyson Fury fight I think I spar I sparred like ten rounds for like two weeks yeah like four sparring of ten rounds barely but the Anthony fight, six weeks before the fight, I was, no, I wasn't 10. No, the Tyson Shuri, yeah, four weeks before the fight, I was already doing like 10 rounds.

And I was feeling good, you know, even a little lighter. But things plays out different. And I think, unlike the Tyson sure fight, that nobody expected me to do anything. Here, they were expecting me to do something. So, things played out a little different. And then we get into five week. And then every time that we're gonna do something

in the five week, whether it's media, they're gonna pick me up and then I get there, have to wait like one hour and a half before he arrives. And there was like maybe the third day of the week that Dewey Cooper, he said, oh, he started to get really mad, upset about it, like, yes, this is how they get, they do to get fighter tired. But at the time, I didn't know what was going on, you know. So I'm like, no, come relax Dewey, it's it's okay you know I didn't know until

we get to the fight day Friday we see the email pick up time I mean this one thing I'm among others pick up time 10 30 from the hotel and then when they say 1030 by 1020, there's a car in your door waiting. We go to the, supposedly five time, between midnight to 1 a.m. We get to the arena, 1045. There's a producer coming to the locker room, saying, oh guy, we are running late on the broadcast. Now we're going to go around 1.45 each. I'm like, okay, 1.45.

It's 10.45. Three hours. Okay. You know. So what do you do? Do you eat? Do you sleep? What do you do when you eat do you sleep what do you do when you know you have three more hours you know just stay there and then you have like a drug test guy around waiting for you to pee how far before the fight do you eat

usually maybe like four five hours yeah like maybe five to six hours and then you get some snacks in between you know and then yeah he was one around 1 30 that he was Anthony Joshua arrived I saw him on screen, I'm like, so we supposed to fight at 1.45, he's arriving at 1.30. What does that mean? It's going to, so. So they're playing games. Until we fight at 1, at 3.30. Oh wow.

We leave the locker room at 3.30. I have been in Saudi for almost two months, training to fight between midnight and 1. That was my training time by 2, 3. So they wanted to keep you anxious, drag it on psychologically, put it in your head, you don't know when you're going to fight. Pretty much. Yeah. But even at that time I didn't

know what was happening. Right. It was after after everything that I'm like what's going on because I get in the I get to the point that I was so tired I was in the locker room hitting meat then sit down feeling asleep then I tell Eric, Eric Nixik like, bro something wrong. I'm asleep. I feel like I want to sleep. Like I'm sweating. But we just keep, we just keep doing. So that's fight. I mean, not to say Anthony Joshua couldn't win me, you know, I think if there's somebody that you can lose against him, he is the guy, you know, and he's one of the best of doing it, you know. But and this is definitely not on him because he wasn't the guy that was sending all those email was organizing so I'm not blaming about anything but the organization bro no

they did quite some stuff that wasn't fair wish on the Tyson fight was perfect everything was perfect because I wasn't a threat I wasn't nobody cares about me everything was organized. We get there in the locker room. I think was two hours before the fight properly. Yeah. Hmm. So then I'm like. Well Anthony Joshua is a veteran you know. He's been in the boxing game for a long time. He knows all the different tricks. They also obviously very much prepared for your style. They saw you fight Tyson Fury, so they had tape on you.

As Tyson Fury did not have boxing tape. He didn't have any footage to study. But Anthony Joshua did. And it was very clear that he knew you had certain tendencies and there were certain things that you did with the Tyson Fury fight that he exploited in his fight. Maybe and then I think again I think he's capable to figure out everybody I think he's capable to win everybody but in this case I feel like in some ways they stand on my way a little bit.

They stood in your way. Yeah. So they played some games. Yeah. Well, they wanted to get the most advantage possible, you know, which is that's, you know, smart. If you're their coach, their manager, that's what I would do too. But it wasn't their coach that was organizing the fight.

So you think it's the organization itself that they set everything up in his favor? The organization. I mean, yes, his team was part of organization because it was Greensbury and Mashroom. Those emails was coming from there. So those are the people that told you to get there three hours earlier than you need to be Yeah, yeah Those are the people that were sending the schedule if I we schedule and every day we send everything like pick up time Mm-hmm, that's the program

Have you had a chance to go back and watch the Anthony Joshua fight? Yeah, what I mean I didn't yes, I watched it What do you remember about the fight what was different watching it oh Even like feeling it. It wasn't Even before I went to watch it I get in the ring Was Even before I went to watch it, I got in the ring, wasn't feeling myself. And the first round, when he knocked me down, I fell and I was like, did I slip? What exactly knocked me down, made me fall like this punch? Because I felt the punch, but it wasn't the punch that will knock me down. So that's when I really get confused at that time.

I'm like, damn, what? But this is the thing. From that moment, I get knocked down with a punch that wasn't that hard because you don't think it was that hard no he hit he hit my hand before hits my face and I felt it I felt the punch but I wasn't on the floor the first one mm-hmm and then I I get count then stood up, we finished the round, I went on my corner. But by the time I went on my corner, I never came back from that.

I kept going and I remember being in my corner and Dewi was like, don't go on South Pole, he's waiting you on South Pole, do this champ, do this champ. That was it. That's from there I don't remember when I left the stool to get in the second round. Well that was probably from the big punch in the second round too, right? Yeah, but I'm talking about the first round. Right, but the memory afterwards is always going to be cloudy after a knockout, especially a bad knockout like that yeah but I remember I

remember exactly what's happened until we get to this so I remember being there like start having blurry vision like the guy was in front of me the my team was in front of me speaking to me and then the voice was Getting distance. So you think there was something wrong? I Don't know if it was the fatigue. I don't know. What was it, but something wasn't right So something wasn't right on forget about the punches. He landed something else was wrong. So we're saying yeah Something was wrong. Do you think it's something you ate? Do you think it was something that someone gave you? I have no proof. I don't know if maybe- Did you get tested after the fight?

Maybe it's the fact that I can, I get there at that time. So just the fatigue and the anxiety and all the hours and hours. Yeah, I don't know if it's the Right, yeah, but something wrong I wanted to get First of all, like when all those things happen You are in the moment. You don't think like you don't get out of the fight and think about like go get tested You know, right you process thing and then see to understand to see how He was wrong. But by the time they

said I think I need we have to do like within 12 hours to do like blood or urine, 12 and 14 and 24 hours that was it. So I didn't do that. I I can't say he was that I don't know but but it felt like something was I wasn't It wasn't me. Yeah So did it feel like something was wrong like just some plain fatigue or did it feel like something was wrong? Like maybe they were poisoned or maybe they felt drugged play fatigue fatigue. Yeah So just fatigue. Yeah, so I think aspect. Yeah. Well, this is also an aspect of experience, right? Because this is only your second professional boxing fight. And you know, there's things that people do, like they do very intelligent things

to like, Gervonta Davis, when he fought Ryan Garcia, he made him rehydrate, he made him dehydrate, get down to a low weight, and then there was a clause in the contract where he couldn't gain more than 10 pounds before the fight itself. So he went into the fight dehydrated. Smart, for a guy like Gervonta who's a huge puncher. So there's things that experienced professionals that have been in the game a long time will get a fighter to agree to that's not in the game a long time will get a

fighter to agree to that's not in their best interest and then there's things that they can do to you like make you wait all day and make you wait around which will fatigue you. Yeah but there wasn't a thing or something in the contract that was forcing me to do something the the only thing was to show up on time. So that was everything. Because before all that, the week before, sparring, everything feels good. I spar way more better, way more stronger than what I did on the Fury Fight.

Even my sparring partner was different at that time. You know on the fury fight we were getting some somebody in maybe after the six or eight rounds just to weigh me down but the quality of a boxing wasn't that impressive right here he was different and I was able to hold I know that if I had to fall he would take a little more to get me down. Hmm well Anthony Joshua was a big puncher he's a big puncher and he punched he's fast he's fast and he's a one punch knockout puncher as opposed to Tyson Fury can knock guys out with one punch

But really he wears guys out. He beats guys up and then takes them out later like the Deontay Wilder fight like he beats him up and then he takes him out You know whereas Joshua can take people out with one shot. He's a much bigger Physically much more powerful guy. No, I agree with that and I I knew that I Knew that What would you do differently if you could do the Anthony Joshua fight again, that's the problem We did everything right like

Everything right in preparation in preparation we did everything right you know sometime you know like when for for example I I first tp I went back and I could have least a I couldn't make a whole list of what I did wrong what I could have done better and that's why like even after that fight, my next fight again, directly with was so bad because I was still working on the list of what I have done wrong. But here we were very disciplined,

we did everything and everybody was professional. You can't say this person did this wrong, this should have been like this, this should have be like this this should have be like that it's so different too because you're going from no professional boxing fights to two of the very very best not just in the world but the two of the very best ever Anthony Joshua Olympic gold medalist, elite fighter, an incredible athlete, I mean, he's so good. So did you think, like, at all about having fights with maybe some guys that were below that level

to get more experience? Like after the Tyson Fury fight, maybe fighting a guy who's like ranked 15th or 16th, you know? I never thought about that you know just went for the money and the money in the big fight the big fight is obviously yes one the big fight so like for example after the Tyson Shuri fight if I go for another guy top 15 like, like what's the goal here? I mean, again, I'm not 20 years old, I'm not 25, that I have a plan to grow up the ranking

and get to the championship. I want to fight. Just get that money. Yeah, get the money. Get the big fights. The big fight, out of the big fight. So that was the goal. Yeah, well you money and get the big fight out of the big fight. So that was the goal. Yeah. Well, you achieved that goal. Because like, first of all, going to the Tyson-Shuri fight, you didn't know if there was a plan after

that, if there was another fight after that. And then after the Tyson-Shuri fight, the next fight that you have a call for was a Anthony Joshua fight. Were you trying to get a different fight after the Tyson Fury fight? Like after the Tyson Fury fight, were you trying to get a rematch or were you just willing to take whatever they are offering you? The rematch was there. We know we had the rematch, but he was going to fight Yusick first. Thing that's supposed to happen in December, and he couldn't. Right, he got cut. Yeah, he couldn't fight in December.

So I wasn't really on something. I was just there, and then I get the offer of Anthony Joshua. Then I'm like, let's go. So where do you stand now? What are you planning on doing now? What do I plan on doing now? I think I still have a couple in me. Boxing fights.

Yeah, a couple boxing fights. Yeah, basically boxing fights. I have a couple MMA fights and I think I haven't think like I'm going to fight MMA fights by the end of the year with PFR. I'm going to fight my might have to fight in Saudi again. Really? Yeah.

Well, one of the things that has been discussed that apparently the UFC might be open to, because the Saudis throw around so much money, is the potential of a joint promotion, a cross promotion with you versus John Jones. Make it happen. That is what the world wants to see because when you have a guy like yourself that you know knocks out Steve Bay, becomes the undisputed UFC heavyweight champion and then through negotiation only decides to relinquish the belt, everybody even though John Jones is the champion now, everybody's like yeah but you didn't win the title against the champion.

And you were the most compelling fight in the heavyweight division, for sure, for John Jones. Well, that's what I wish, but you know, in these days, this takes a lot more than what I want or what I wish right there's a lot going on yeah there's a lot going on so tell me what what is the status of your deal with the PFL now so how does that work it's working pretty good we have a good relationship I have some fight again I will be fighting by the end of the year and then do you know who you're fighting? I Think a rain and federal is the guy. Yeah

That's the guy that knocked out Ryan Bader. Yeah, he's dangerous. He's legit I've been telling people about this guy for what almost two years. He's a big dude Yeah, but very athletic very athletic fast Fast hand one two knee stuff like very athletic Yeah, so I think is is is gonna be him and you think that fight will be in Saudi Arabia as well Yeah, that's what the PFA interesting. It's working on on. Interesting. Do you know when that'll take place? October. It's not finalized yet but they were talking about October 19. Isn't that around the same time the UFC has that big Abu Dhabi card? Don't they have a big Abu Dhabi? Can you go to the UFC's website and see what

their Abu Dhabi card is? I believe, I want to say, somewhere around the end of October there's a big UFC card in Abu Dhabi. 25th? October 25th? So October 25th. 25th? My Microsoft. Oh no wait. October 25th. October 25th. Yeah. Yeah. So one week after. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. I don't know if the UFC has that card finalized. Do they have that card finalized? They always put on a big fight when they go to Abu Dhabi. Abu Dhabi is always a big card. A lot of like top level fighters on that card. Yeah, even this Riyadh one is going to be a big card. No, I'm sure. If we make it happen, we're going to stack that card.

Do you know who else would be on that card with you? I don't. Again, it's not finalized yet, but I think Cedrin Dumbay will be on that doom. I love that. Yeah I've had him on the podcast for he's an entertainer. He's a comedian. He's a comedian. He's fine He's very funny, but goddamn he can fight. Oh, no, he can fight. How crazy was that? He can back up what whatever he said? Yeah, he's an elite kickboxer, elite kickboxer He trained at my gym in LA when I had my gym in LA my gym in LA his trainer came when he did my podcast And he had a workout session and man his workout sessions are crazy. He's so cardio intensive

They're doing like sprints on the treadmill and they run to the heavy bag Sprints on the heavy bag run back to the treadmill. I was like damn like watching that I was like no wonder why this guy has a crazy gas tank. Well, he was a champion for Glory for a long time. So and that was that wasn't a mistake He was knocking everybody out not just knocking everybody out, but the way he did it, he melted guys. He put pressure on them. And knockout power, but intelligence.

And just great technique, but the cardio was crazy. And I remember thinking, this dude doesn't get tired. And then watching him train, I'm like, oh, well, there it is. He's not just doing normal mitt work. I've seen other guys work out where they do mitt work to do their things like his stuff is Cardio intensive man. He has he wants to have a full gas tank when he gets in there. Yeah, you know How crazy was that fight where they called the fight because he stepped on a piece of glass Inside the cage. I don't know man. I don't even know what that referee was doing. All they had to do was pull it out of his toe.

Yeah. Like, I stepped on something. He's like, yeah, I stepped on something. I stepped something in my toe. And the referee was like, fight's off. Yeah, I think you stop the fight and you even check the canvas if there's no more piece of glass on the canvas. That should be overturned.

Because that was dangerous. That should, it is dangerous. But that should be a no contest There's no way that you count as a loss No contest at all no chance About like a Ipoc or something that didn't happen nothing piece of a glass a piece of any So any saying just let me get it out of my toe. Yeah

It shouldn't be there and you know things just let me get it out of my toe. Yeah, it shouldn't be there. Let me get this out of my toe. It shouldn't be there. And you know, things happen. Who knows how it even got in there? Who knows what happened? The odds just some random freak accident. He steps on something that nobody, you know what? It could have been stuck to someone's shoe and someone's walking around the cage with

that stuck in their shoe and it falls out of their shoe and it sticks in his toe. He stands on it. He gets it in his toe and he just points down. They say, stop the fight. Yeah. He's like I lost out twice like first and the see if you can find that Jamie See the second time I was reading as someone's explanation of what Mark Goddard did and I said he did what you're supposed to Do like a fighter can't ask for a timeout and so like no no that's wrong There's a foreign Yeah There's a foreign object. There's something, yeah, a foreign object. That falls under to the timidity sections of the referee's guidelines in which they are

instructed to continue fighting. This is just someone's explanation. Did they say timidity? That's what this is. Oh, that's ridiculous. Oh, that's ridiculous. I'll find the footage. See if you can find the footage though, because the footage is, it's so obvious there's something

wrong. The referee should just say time, ask him what he's saying. Like, what, what? It wasn't like he was in trouble and he was looking for a timeout. Yeah. He was there in the 50-50 position. Yes, yes, yes. Break the fight. It's not like nobody is losing position. Exactly. So here it is. He's standing there. Yeah. It's not like nobody is losing nobody is losing position from that It's not like you take a punch. I want to recover from that Fucking crazy Yes, no, I just don't understand that at all. I mean, I haven't talked to mark about it. That wasn't a good decision I don't understand. I mean, maybe he's hindered by the rules

Maybe that's just what the rules state you have to do when a fighter says you have to stop something for a second I don't know what the rules are in terms of that. I've never seen that happen before I've never seen someone step on something inside the octagon and then point down to their foot. I've never seen it. So I don't But man, what a shame we came after came after that and he won, he won his next fight. He's gonna fuck up a lot of people, man. I was bummed out that he went to the PFL. I wanted that guy in the UFC. He can fuck up a lot of people.

And you know, he's got a lot of years on the clock too. He said he wanted to go to the UFC and then they give him some sort of contract and then I'm like, no bro. They gave him a bad contract? Yeah. That's unfortunate. I think he said that on the tweet right? I don't know. I don't know. He made some tweet about like salaring. That doesn't make any sense. Well that's crazy. Or was it an interview? That guy could be a superstar. He could be a superstar. He's so fun.

He is a superstar. He is a superstar. The guy filled up the best arena in Paris. Yes, in France he's a superstar. Yeah. I mean, and that could translate 100% to the United States into the rest of the world. I mean, he's that good. He's that good. He's one of the best in the world. And the fact that he's over there, just like, well, great for the PFL. Great for the PFL, you know, but for the UFC, like, that's a big loss. Like anytime you can get an elite kickboxer, and he did a lot of training, he did a lot of training in wrestling, went to AKA, trained there, he's really worked on his takedown defense and he wants something. Yeah, he definitely wants something and he's working on it. And the guy has serious discipline and work ethic. And he's just smart, man. And the way he fights, he sets guys up. He talks so much shit before the fight, too. He's fun. Did you watch his first fight at the PFA? Yeah.

The guy brought a mattress. Like, what the fuck is this? Said Jordan, go to sleep. And he put the guy to sleep in a few seconds. Well, the difference between his level of striking and most guys in that division level of striking is like this Yeah, there's a huge gap a giant gap There are the people the other guy was just trying to compensate with the arresting or jujitsu or something exactly And even if you don't have a better wrestling than him at least you grab him you avoid some punch

Yes, and the thing about him is that every fight starts standing up. So one thing if you're a really good wrestler, you have to take the guy to the ground, but the fight starts standing. You know, with Cedric, the fight starts in his best place. And then you see how he was fighting in his second fight. He was very low. He went very low. Like, okay, you're a wrestler.

Yeah. Let's see how you're gonna Yeah, get that level change. Yeah, I'm already down here. Mm-hmm. So Getting very it's very intelligent intelligent and and again his level of striking and we see that with like guys like Alex Pereira Right like that level striking when you're a glory champion, the level of striking is so high. It's so above the average MMA fighter. Then when he gets in there with these guys, they don't, they don't want none of that. And then as soon as they started get like a, a little wrestling defense and stuff like

that, they become a trouble. You can't take him down anymore. Exactly. And then you, you stand in front of him He smoke you. Yes, what could you do? Well, you see that with Alex Pereira now Yes, take down defense is much better and he keeps getting better. He's evolving so quickly Like not because he's been training. Yeah, he's been training for so long He's been training for so long and then he's also training with Glover, you know Glover Tichara, who's also a former champion. I mean Glover was a guy that was locked out of America for six years. He couldn't come to America for six years because he had visa issues and he was like the boogeyman. We would all hear about him in

Brazil and everybody would talk. Yeah, Glover was like one of those guys before he entered into the UFC that I and I think he wasted his prime, unfortunately, in Brazil. Not, I'll say wasted his prime, but I think his prime years were outside of the United States. That's why when he won the title, he was like 42. 43. 43? What exactly is a prime years for a guy

that won a title at 44, at 43? I think you get to the point, you get you to think that maybe 43 is the prime years. Yeah, you watched that film like 43, it's not that old. You know, I think at 43 you can still do something. Yeah, well it depends on the division, right? Like George Foreman won the heavyweight title at 45.

Yeah, yeah. Heavyweights, it's yeah, it's different. Because they don't push on that gas, you know. Right, right, right. They throw some punch and move. How old is Cedric? Cedric Ndombé? Yeah. Find out how old he is, Cedric.

I want to say he's young. Yeah, he's young. He's young. He might be 32, 33. 31. That's a good age. Yeah. Yeah, he's young. He's young. It might be how was he? 31 that's a good 31. Yeah. Yeah with that level of kickboxing whoo and power man, you know, like not just like technique but power and endurance like it's a rare combination He has a very very good endurance and extreme power. Yeah, he hit like a deaf guy very good endurance and extreme power. Yeah, he hit like a deaf guy.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, he's a fucking killer. I'm excited to see what happens. Do you understand the PFL's point system? Do you understand that system? What do you mean? You know how they have points, like if you get a knockout in the first round, you get one point or three points.

What the fuck are they doing? That's for the regular season. I think it's just to push people for a better fight. Everybody knows that you get a knockout, you deserve something better. You get a finish, you get something. But you can't always get a finish. But what if you're fighting a guy that's like your level? Like you're both elite you you're both fighting in like this incredible Fight you shouldn't be penalized because you can't take out a fighter who's the best in the world in the first round That seems crazy to me. Yeah, but either way if you win a fight you're winning something Yeah, you just win you just win more

It's like having a win bonus or something. I don't like win bonuses either. I hate win bonuses. Yeah me too. I don't like it. I don't like like I don't like boxing set up better where you have a contractual you have a contract you're gonna get paid ten million dollars whatever it is. That's what you get. You don't get ten million dollars but you only get five million if a shitty judge gives it to the other guy, which we've seen so many times in the UFC. Guys lose half their paycheck because of a bad decision. Yeah, but what does that benefit?

What benefits from that? I don't know who it benefits. I don't think it benefits anybody. I think it's bad for everybody. I think it's bad for the audience because they're like, what? Because it makes them angry. It's bad for the audience because they're like what? Because it makes them angry. It's bad for the fighter for sure. If a fighter loses their paycheck, loses half their paycheck because of a bad decision. How about the promotion? I don't even think

it's good for the promotion. I think it's unfair. I don't think it makes any sense. No guys trying at the elite level, everyone's trying to win. They're all trying to win. No one's not trying to win. Absolutely. No one's not trying to win Absolutely. No one's gonna just coast for the most part you get there by winning. Yes Yeah, the whole thing is the glory of victory. So what you trying to do, you're not gonna fight less hard I just don't understand the logic behind it. I think it's a flawed concept I think it's something that never existed in combat sports before MMA and really shouldn't exist I think fighters fight their best best especially at the elite level. They fight their best. Yeah I agree with you because like when you lose a fight

at least you should get your full pay on that fight. Yes. But that won't, the loss won't help you with the advantage on the next fight. Right. You know on next negotiation. Oh you lose two fights in a row row right so you you don't have a power position anymore exactly just to pick half of your purse because you lose a fight yeah it's crazy I don't like it at all no I don't like it at all it just doesn't make sense to me I've heard people try to argue it and every time they try to make an argument for it I'm like I don't get it doesn't it sense to me. I've heard people try to argue it and every time they try to make an argument for it I'm like, I don't get it

Doesn't it's not fair for the fighters fighters only have if they're really lucky Like what's the most fights that a elite fighter in the UFC has like 50 45 50 fights You know, maybe 50 fight maybe there's a few guys that have like that level of fights. Most guys they top off way less than that. Oh, way, way less. Yeah, way less. So the idea that like. By the time you start your career, if you already you have like an injury.

Yeah. Good luck. Right. Good luck to reach 25. Especially ACL surgery out for a year, shoulder surgery, you're out for a year, broken hand, you're out for a year. Shoulder surgery, you're out for a year. Broken hand, you're out for five months. Might never be the same. Yeah.

And most people, it's not like there is an age to start. Oh, you start at 20 or 25. Some people will get there at 30, over 30. I mean, they already have a mileage. How old were you when you started training so late? How old were you when you started training? 27. Like, how old were you when you started training? 27? Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, I was 27. But that was only when I could have trained. Right, yeah. So... You only have a certain amount of years. Yeah. But I just want to do the best out of those years. Of course, but for you to be fighting on a system that penalizes you

if there's a bad judge and you miss half your paycheck. Does the PFL do win bonuses too? Do they do the same thing? I don't know exactly. You know, your contract is probably different than everybody else's. Yes, and I haven't. my contract is different. No I either way I wouldn't go for that win bonus stuff. I have nothing against bonus but don't split my my my paycheck into talking about like win bonus. No give me my paycheck if you want to give a bonus for the win let's do another deal on that one. Yeah that makes sense., that makes sense. I just... Because whether I lose or I don't lose or I win,

I train, I get prepared for the fight, I come, I give it, I give everything for that fight. I should get paid. Yes. And the same thing that I give in that fight to lose could have get me to win. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And so now the PFL and Bellator are one organization now, right? The PFL acquired Bellator. Is that what's going on? Yes. Do the Saudis have something to do with that as well? Don't they own part of it? They invest in the PFL, yes. In the main PFL because there's a main PFR, a house PFR that has

like the PFR and the Bellator now. And then now they're having like a PFR, regional PFR, like a PFR MENA that launched this year, and then PFR Africa that's launching next year. And that's your shirt. Yeah. And so you're a part of that as well, right? Oh, yeah. That was the biggest, I think that was the biggest reason for me in that contract. The PFA Africa part was the most important one in that contract. You know, like before that I was trying to like even to the UFC I have requested to be like, oh I want to be the UFC ambassador in Africa I want to do something out there. I'm like, oh no, we don't know, you know, this is not we don't and then I get a PFL They say okay, we're doing this we'll do that. They show me the roadmap like okay. We launched PFL Africa

2025 you're the PFL Africa chairman. I'm like which extent because I don't want that bullshit of paper chairman or whatever it is like I wish it's then like what exactly are you seen in PFL Africa and then they put it out and give show me some element I'm like good then I'm on board Hmm. Well that is one good thing about going over to the PFL because you you have so much value to them like for you coming over you were the Undisputed heavyweight champion of the UFC you come over to the PFL. Everybody knows who you are now It elevates the PFL. So it's nice because it allow you to do more things and To be honest one thing I have a healthy relationship.

You know, it's peaceful. Get to the point of my life that I really get tired or sick of drama. Sometimes I just get into something, find myself in the middle of some drama, and then I just walk away. Whatever you want to say, you say something. You might say, I disrespect you.

You say, oh, I this or that, bro, I don't have so much energy to give into that. So that was part of what was going on with the UFC. There was a lot of drama. That's, yeah, and that's what would take a lot out of you. You get to the point that you're like, I want I just want this to be over. Right. I just want to get to be over.

Get back to my life. But you're already in the middle. Whether you want to go back, you have to deal with drama. If you have to go forward, you have to deal with drama. So you better keep going forward. Yeah, especially I mean, like, how much time do you have left have left route? I mean how many more years you think gonna be fighting? Yeah, and does matter. I mean Soon 38 and I think I gonna be I really want to retired in my

As they say I want to leave the sport before the sport leaves me. Smart. Yeah, so I'm thinking in my average like 41. So three more years. Yeah, 41 by that. Do you have a thought of how many more boxing fights versus how many more MMA fights you want to do? Not exactly. I think I would take it how it comes. I'll take it how how he comes. Hmm. I'll take it how he comes

And so the next fight will be MMA definitely or maybe maybe in Maybe in my 40s, I Still feel like I have it, you know, right if I feel like at 41, I feel like I have it Well, you keep going to ways to well. I keep, yeah. Keep going to ways to well. Yeah, exactly. Keep regenerating.

And then take one at a time, you know? But what I really don't wanna do is to like wake up and go to the gym like I'm forced, you know? If I feel like I have it, or I'm excited, or today is a sparring day, I'm going to get there. Whether I'm forced you know right if I feel like I have it or I'm excited or today is a sparring day I'm going to get there whether I'm gonna beat somebody up or they're gonna beat me up either way I'm excited right you know if I still have that I Keep going right right as soon as I don't have that even if I'm not 40 yet

I think is a sign is a call out yeah, well, that's intelligent, that's smart. That's the way you phrased it, I like the way you phrased it. Leave the sport before the sport leaves you. Yeah, that's. Cause we've all seen guys who hung around too long. I would still always do the sport. I would never really leave the sport, but the competition at that level, you know, you need to be ready, you need to be into it,

you need to wanna be there. You don't just wanna do it because, okay, I need to be into it, you need to want to be there. You don't just want to do it because okay, I have to know you don't go play with punches because you have to know right, right, right, right, right. You better want to be enthusiastic. Yeah. Yeah. So do you know for sure that you'll be fighting MMA next? Or is it possible that a big boxing match could present itself and you would do that next? I will say MMA next.

Definitely. Yeah, I would say MMA next. Because I supposed to fight, it's been over a year, little over a year now since the PFA agreement and then supposed to have a fight in a year. So now we are getting a little out of the timeline. And by the time we were figuring out who should be my opponent and I think things are very clear now. Reynand Ferrera made his serve very clear that he's a challenger that should make the fight.

He's the opponent that can make that fight happen. And let's assume you get past that. Will you then decide whether or not you're gonna fight MMA next or boxing next? Because one of the things about the PFL is there's not a lot of challenges, there's not a lot of very compelling challenges for you there, unfortunately.

At least now, they could sign some more top flight heavyweights. I mean, who knows what happens with many people? Who knows what happens with John Jones? I mean, I don't know what happens with any of these guys. I mean, he could wind up going to the BFL. Who fucking knows? If they come up with some big money, you know, you could get a lot of people that will be willing to go over there.

Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I Mean like after I think after this fight. I'll see what's happened. I don't really have a Clear mind on what will happen, but I will say most likely boxing Most likely box. Yeah, most likely box. Do you have an opponent in mind? No, no, absolutely. We will see the landscape and what I can get. Who I can get. Because my expectation as you were asking me earlier like how many fighters do I think I can do in MMA or boxing. I think if I get to like a good full fight plan in boxing, I think that could be good. You could be my potential retirement plan.

Well it sounds like you already made a good amount of money. Yeah I've made a good amount of money but you also have to remember that I started this sport for passion. You know you don't start the sport for the money because at first there is no money. At first it's just punch flying over your head all over and you have to dodge and then fight and not get paid, fight for free for quite some time. You know, so I love the sport. I still love the sport. I love the sport of, I love combat sport. I love fighting and I think I'll do it until I feel like I cannot do it anymore.

Is boxing more unique to you because it's a new challenge? Boxing is different to me because it's even my, my both my, um, my, um, Even my body, even the muscles memory are not the same. The functionality of my body is not the same, you know, unlike MMA that I know every single action in MMA, every single moment. I've been there tens of times. I know. I get this but boxing you're still like okay you know you might get even in some position and get stressed because you never been there you

don't know you have to figure out right you know instead of it being extinction yeah then you until you get there two three two three times then you're like ah it's okay I can deal with. You know, MMA, I go MMA fight with knee injury. I'm still like, I get this. But boxing, little different. You basically know that. Questioning yourself about if you can handle this. It's not like, I get this.

Right, right, right. It's different. There's a lot of thinking, because it's a new thing for you. When you train for boxing, I know you have Dewey Cooper, you have Eric Nixik. Did you bring other people in to help train you in boxing? Yeah, I brought John Bumba from France. He assists Dewey sometimes because he has a very good amateur style, which I think is something that I still need to build in my game.

Other than that, I have a trip, which is my strength and conditioning coach, so I put those elements down. Did you get a chance to spar any top heavyweights in America? Top heavyweight like who? I would say Carlos Thakam. Guido is at top right now. He's my other sparring partner. But in America America not other top

I get Jeremiah Milton as well But not a Big name in America, which is even more impressive your performance against Tyson Fury when you consider like you really didn't even spar elite heavyweights? Listen I think sometime we we don't give credit to some people because they don't just have a name because they are not they haven't have a stage to play on right you know and we think like oh nobody, oh, he's not an elite. Let me take you some example.

Before Andy Ruiz fought Anthony Jojo, would you think about him as an elite fighter? No, a lot of people had no idea. But he was still there and he was just as good as he is right now. But he's unusual. But because he didn't have the scene to be seen, to be exposed, so nobody cared about him. And he should say, oh I spar with Angie Ruiz. I'm like, yes, but you haven't spar with the elite. You see? Yes. And there's a lot of people like that out there. Right. A lot of people that haven't got their shot yet, but they have a little talent.

Yeah, they haven't got their shot, but they are there. They are present. They are elite. Well, when you first made your way, and you know, when you told that story on the podcast of your journey leaving Cameroon and making your way and getting turned back so many times, when you first arrived and you finally got to France, you wanted to be a boxer. No, even before I left, I wanted to be a boxer. Even decades before I left, I wanted to be a boxer. Even decades before I left I wanted to be a boxer. That wasn't even a question. I always knew what I wanted.

So when it finally went full circle and you became a boxer again, did it feel like, oh, this is how it was supposed to be? I was living my dream. There is no way that, I don't think there is a way that things supposed to be. You get what you get and then you be grateful and then you make the best out of it. Yeah. You know, so I was living the dream.

You know, I ended up having the fight, having to fight two best boxer in the world after having a great MMA career, not bad from a guy coming from where I came from. No, it's amazing. Basically from having the path that I had. And who knows, some good thing might still happen. Oh, some good things I'm sure will still happen.

But your path is incredible, and I encourage anybody that hasn't heard it to go back and listen to the first podcast you and I did together, where you explained it. I was stunned. I remember for the rest of the day, all I could think about was your story and how insane it is that what you had to go through to finally make it to Europe. Incredible story. You know, just as I was talking, I was saying earlier, because some people hasn't been exposed, they haven't got a big stage,

like they don't care about them. There are a lot of people out there with a better story than mine, with a better, stronger than mine that even me, I'm impressed. I'm like, bro, how do you do that? I don't think I could have done that, you know? But, and they had a lot, not like one or like two, three, a lot of people, you know? But I think I happen to be the one that have the sin and have been exposed, my story has been exposed to the world

It's you have to that struggle and have the Joe Rogan experience to tell my own story. Wish they don't have Well, I'd have be I'd be happy to have them on too If they had a story like yours and the success that you've had from that It's very inspiring and it speaks to the human spirit because that's that's what people love to hear about someone who did not give up and struggled so hard. How many times did you get sent back? Seven, eight times? Six times.

Six times. In the ocean, six times. And then I made it the seventh time. Crazy. Crazy. Seven is a magic number. It is a magic number, right? It's a lucky number. I made it the seven times. Crazy. Seven is a magic number. It is a magic number, right? It's a lucky number.

I made it the seven times. It's an incredibly inspirational story. And I love the fact that you're dedicated to doing this thing in Africa now, and to give more people an opportunity and to give them a path towards a career? You know, regardless of what you might think of my life, I think I'm a very blessed guy. I think I'm a very lucky guy.

First of all, I think even if when I explain, you might don't really understand where I came from. And to imagine that I'm here today, calling a shot, bro, it's crazy. It's just insane. You know, so I think I'm a very lucky guy. God has really blessed me. And then I also think those blessings come with a lot of

opportunity that I can bring back. You know, because when I was there for so many times, I can't tell you how many times that my hope was to somebody to come do something, to some good Samaritan to take some action that I would take advantage on. You know, then he happened that I've been blessed to be the guy that can do that and even without taking, even without that taking anything out of me, you know. So like, I'm like, he will be a sin not to do, not to do something, you know, like, for example, for the PFA Africa, my dream about that, what gave me excited about that is just seeing myself not have to leave Africa as I did, and then have to compete in the good platform like that, have to make a living, have to fight in the world class fighter in that level

and just stay home. Right. And not have to risk all this life, go through all this stuff, through the ocean, the barbed wire, the prison stuff that I've been through to do that. You know, I just have to stay home and do that. Right. So now it's a new, it's a platform that's gonna give opportunity to many people that maybe have a plan to go through that same path and that might not have made it, you know, they're just doing it at home. That's beautiful.

How could you not do, think of doing something like that when you have an opportunity and it's not like, oh, it's a war that they carry and put on your head and a burden that you have to carry is the opportunity that you can just help participate and make it happen. So tell me, how does this play out? Do you establish gyms in Africa? Are you gonna put a gym in Cameroon? How are you gonna do this? I have two gyms in Cameroon already.

Oh, you do? Yeah, through my foundation, I have one gym, one gym for six years now. Oh, wow. Yeah, and then the second gym, been around for almost two years and we built that one with a partner. I mean a partner helped us to build. They like our project with the foundation and then they joined us,

PremierBet, they joined us to that to build that gym for us. A very big big ass gym. So we have that too and we were in the project to build that gym for us, a very big, big ass gym. So we have that tool and we were in the project to build the third one, but with the PFL, one thing that I requested and then it was granted was that everywhere that we are going to do, we're gonna try to build gyms around, because yes, it's good to bring PFL,

to bring competition around. Because yes, it's good to bring PFL, to bring competition around, but remember, so many of those people, they have nothing. Many of those kids that wanna fight, they might be training on the beach. They don't really have a gym to train at, but yet you're expecting them to compete at the highest level. So it's at least good to have a system that will

help them, you know, it's like having a garden. Right. Yeah, having a garden to create talent that you need for your organization, you know, so helping them to help you because at the end of the day you need talent, at the end of the day talent needs organization. So the thing is that with PFA Africa we're going to build gyms that fighters will use

and develop and then we're going to also help like get coaches, experienced coaches that can go and teach and also teach another coach how to properly train at that level, stuff like that. So that's the goal, you know, it's about like building something. It's not like here that you come and everything is established and you have your promotion and go. No, it's like building something working from the grass. Yeah. That's beautiful. So Africa is obviously a huge continent and there's so many countries in it. Full of talent. What is the scene like in Africa right now in terms of like what are the local? Promotions and how many of them are there and how many like how many like young?

Talented fighters do you see that are coming out of there that could? Eventually come over to the PFL or the UFC or belt or or what FC or any of the large organizations? Okay, so you asked me the question like many American was is the scene in America in Africa. Africa is 52 country right and I never been in five of them. So I know South Africa has a large scene you know obviously Drekas Duplassis from South Africa there's a lot of good fighters from South Africa. They have an organization that I think is EFC something like that. Nigeria they've been doing fighters. Yeah, I think is EFC something like that Nigeria they've been doing good

They also have a I think is African knockout that Usman Kamaru is part of right there and there are also some regional Organization, they might be smaller or not like quite popular. Is there one large organization? or not like quite popular. Is there one large organization over there at all? No, not yet. So most of them are fairly small? Yeah, because again, you have to build everything from the scratch. So everybody is trying to do the best out of what you get.

But if you have a good organization, you need to build gym, you need to give those fighters a way to train, you need to help them about like having experience, get training, top coaches, and then more people training, at least they have training partners, which is not they don't have. You have seen, I have seen a lot of some African fighters that are really good, but they don't have, they'll have to go somewhere else because they don't have a training partners, you know, but with this program, they're going to have, it's going to be a whole ecosystem. A whole ecosystem in the fact that you're going to have a gym that you're going to train

and then maybe provide a fighter for who's going to fight in the promotion and that might have money and then that money will attract people you know, will attract other people to train because he has seen other ones making a living out of training. He has seen that is possible. He has seen the opportunity right next to his door like right they're here i don't have to travel it's not in america anymore it's not in europe anymore right it's here i just have to stay here and get dedicated so it's possible and it's interesting too if the pfl has a i mean if they establish pfl africa the beautiful thing is that if they have top level fights

over there and then they take those fights and they broadcast them all over the world, then there's so much opportunity. Yes. I mean, the fighter of PFL Africa will not only be seen in Africa. Not to mention that the champion of the PFL Africa, just as PFL MENA and PFL Europe, they will all come together to fight for the main PFL title.

So everybody is getting that big stage. They are all still under the main PFL, which is something that is very interesting and then will give more spotlight, more opportunity. Also get attention of media and then who says media says attention of sponsor that will go maybe to gym to fighters and that create that will create the ecosystem around that media interests sponsor come around and then fighter get paid and then maybe his sparring partner get paid or I don't know. He has his assistant or somebody working to work for him get paid and the money is now Yeah And everybody do you see yourself? or somebody working to work for him get paid and the money is now in the loop and everybody

do you see yourself after you retire from fighting going into a coaching and mentoring role for fighters do you see yourself being more of an executive position like working with either the PFL or whoever? I don't see, really, I never see myself as a coach. I don't have like a vocation for that. It's not something that I have. I look, I'm looking forward to. Although I see myself like maybe stay in the sport some way like I also don't see myself as a manager. That's a hard job. Yeah, I know cool. A lot of bullshit. Yeah.

Managed to deal with a lot of bullshit. Like, I just think that to be a good, it's a job that you think like to be good at it, you need to be screwing somebody. Right. Most likely, not always, but most likely. Might be on the table. So I don't see myself like that, but I see myself really like working on like

the growth of the sport, basically in Africa. And again, that's why like the PFA Africa comes to me like the writing, you know, the retirement plan, thing that I could be focused on, been working on. I know how Africa work perfectly. I know how PFA work perfectly. I know Pete Murray and Don Davis, they are very excited about it.

But bro, they are white people from America and they don't know how Africa works. I am from Africa and I know the deep ground of Africa and I know the challenge there. I know the problem there as an athlete and I think that's where I will impact. I think a role of an executive will be like it's some fancy thing that yes I might have but I think my good job is to

work on the field because I know the problem, the roots, the root and the problem there. What could be done, what needs to be done, what they need. I think that's what I would be best at. Also for young fighters. I don't think like being like, yeah, it's cool to be chairman of PFA Africa, but I'm not going to sit in the office. I'm like, oh, I'm a chairman and then wear suit

and tie every day to run stuff. I think I can- No, it doesn't seem like it. Yeah. But I think for you, for a young fighter, there's no greater source of inspiration than a guy like yourself. I mean, if you look at your career,

you've only been fighting for 10 years. Look at all you've accomplished. UFC heavyweight champion, fought two of the best boxers alive You're an international superstar. You made millions of dollars Like that is the height of inspiration on Mike Joe. Sorry, sir. Everybody knows Yeah, but when you say that out loud, maybe you get some lawsuit You know

Money is like honey. You always attract bees. That's so true. That's so true. A lot of stingers out there. So let's forget about the money. But just look at the accomplishment and just knowing that you came, especially again if someone hears your story of how hard it was for you to literally essentially walk from Cameroon to Morocco and then make it all the way over to Europe and then make a career in fighting and then make it

to the United States, get into the UFC and then in a matter of a few short years become the UFC Heavyweight Champion. For young fighters that's like, like that guy did it, like he did it, he did, he came from where I came from, I can do it now. Once someone has done it, it makes it more accessible, at least mentally, to a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the fundamental idea about my foundation. The reason why I did a foundation, for me, he was just so, not only those kids can have

access in the gym, which is something that me growing up, I was just dreaming about it. The only gym that I have seen until I was 22 was the gym that I saw, whether in my dream or in the TV. I never see a real gym, even though I always want to do combat sport but I thought like if you build like nice gym not only those kids have access he make them have this feeling this connection with reality like oh the thing that I always see in TV is here is possible you know and then the guy that maybe I have seen in TV on TV or heard about is also here, like he's around, he came here.

So it's possible. Because the idea of the foundation was just to motivate kids, allow them to believe in themselves. And I think it's still what we're working on to help them believe, trust, have a trust in themselves, a self-believing, have a self-confidence in themselves and this doesn't matter what they want to do in life. You might want to be a doctor, you might want to be a lawyer, accountant, journalist, whatever you want to do but I do think that a guy that believes somebody that believe in himself success for that guy is just a matter of time and you can be

a champion in whatever you do see like doesn't you don't have to be a fighter to become a champion. I'm glad you brought that up because it's another question I wanted to ask you is do you have any other aspirations of doing things outside of fighting once you've retired? Because one of the things you were talking to Jamie about before the show started was producing you were talking about production Like film and filming things and do you have other aspirations? I have a lot of aspiration but not like a job. I have a lot of passion You know, I'm passionate about a lot of things today

I use I I can have quite the resource to have some hobbies, you know, stuff that I am excited about, I'm passionate about. I create a small production in Cameroon, in my village, just to train kids so they can have to touch camera like this. All those stuff that we have here, I have it back home. They touch, they learn on it. You know, I just want them to be able to operate a good camera. If someday they want to do, or somebody want to do a movie,

they have somebody that can operate a nice camera, just home. Don't need to go to Europe or in America to bring people because local they can do and they have been trained in on good cameras you know. So I have started stuff like that a lot. What inspired you to do that in terms of cameras and production and stuff? I always love cameras. Yeah. I always love I see and I always impressed and then I see stuff here and then I see the challenge, the difference that are, you know, like you see somebody that make a film, a movie that might be on Netflix with a very low quality of camera, then I'm like, what if this guy has access on a good camera. What can he do? Right, you know, well, that's one of the things like you were talking about with fighters Yeah, there's a lot of people out there that are very talented. They just haven't had their shot their shot yet

I'm so there's a lot of people like that with filmmaking and with stand-up comedy and writing literature, yeah, everything Yeah, and I'll have another opportunity and I always say this I think I'm I we might have become US the first African champion Just because there wasn't so many people that have a chance. I mean like when you look at the Camaro a design year. I I mean like when you look at Kamaru, Adesanya, I, I'm sure if you go to Africa you can find some motherfucker who can beat us up.

But lucky us, we didn't have that chance yet so we took the opportunity. But you open the door though and it makes it possible for others. Which is, that's one of the more important things about accomplishment. But as time goes by the challenge will become tougher and tougher and we will come around and we will be very we might come very short. Well look at Brazil you know I mean look at Brazil there's so many champions so many elite fighters come out of Brazil now. That's because Royce Gracie opened that door and then the UFC just became a place for them. And then if you take even that Roy Gracie on his prime, put him here, he's gonna get beat up by maybe by some kickboxer. Yeah. You know, but he's,

he was the one that opened that door, you know, that gave that opportunity that made the path know that give that opportunity that made the path through that. Yeah, it's just it's so important that you recognize that that like your position is not just as an individual, but your position is as an inspiration to others. And to give people this, this they see it like, I can do it. He did it. It's possible. they see it, like, I can do it. He did it. It's possible. Yeah, I think in life we take every opportunity that we have. We get to the point again that we have an opportunity to affect other life. How many people affect other life? How many people in their lifetime walk around and parents walk to them and like, oh, my kid wanna be like you.

Right. You know, I think, I think it's something really cool. It's really great. It's very cool. Like a parent that want the best for their kids, yes, kids wanted to be like you, yes, it's different because he's not very smart, he's not wise, and even kids want to be, do some dumb shit.

So you might be a bad guy and kids still wanna be like you. A drug dealer. But a parent that really protective about their kids, like want the best for their kids, and then they'll come like, oh, your son is such an inspiration, my kid wanna be like you. So that's basically like him approving

that his kid should be like you. He hope for his kid to become like you. That's a big statement, which is pretty cool. Yeah, it is pretty cool. It's really cool. It's really cool, and it's such a unique time for people, too, because internet is available pretty much all over the world now.

So kids in all these countries, especially if they have phones, they have access to all of this information. All. And it's messy. It's coming from all over. And they can find everything. Yeah. Everything. Now how to help them pick what's good and what's not good. Right. That's

the problem. Yeah. Because information is good, but a lot of it's bullshit. A lot of it is bullshit. You have to filter. Yeah. Because some of them are just bad seed in the brain. Yeah, that's true too. Yeah. And then, have you seen what's happening in the Amazon? There's this very small, uncontacted tribe, and they got internet access. And now, a lot of them are just on their phones all day. And then the tribe leaders are like, well, what the fuck? Everyone's lazy.

You guys are becoming like Americans now. You're just on your phone all day. They're looking at tits and looking at porn and like, you know. Of course. And this thing that they thought would be a beautiful thing, oh, this would be so great. We're gonna get access to information. People are gonna get educated.

Instead, you know, a lot of them are just looking at TikTok videos. Yeah, but. They gotta have to figure out how to manage that how to manage people for the most part are lazy. Really? You think so? Yeah, I think people for the most part are lazy. If you give them an opportunity to be lazy. Um, no. It's hard to be disciplined, especially if you don't have examples of other disciplined people around you. You know, some people might have, might just have been educated, keep going to school, because they choose school over work.

That's true. And some people choose work over school. That's true as well, yeah. And then you go to school, and after being graduated, or have your PhD, and then you're like, oh, he's educated, he's this. In fact, you were running away from a job. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha. I'm sure that's educators. That's the problem with our universities. Those people wind up teaching. At the end of the day, yes, you are educated, but in reality, you are lazy. If you have a job, if you have a job that is going to wear a suit and act like a boss every day, you can do it.

But if he has to like start something and work really hard, he can't stand it. Right. Yeah, he can't stand it. There's a lot of truth in that. But someone will also be a worker because they had a vision, they want to do that, they're excited of a knowledge to implement into something. And then after that, they just start a business. And this, you know, because starting a business is never easy.

You have to be a worker. When you start a business, it's not like a nine to five job. You know, you don't have time. Sometimes you have to wake up at midnight or at 2 a.m. to pick up a call because this guy is, I don't know, in China, in Europe, and the time different and you have to keep going. You have to be on his time. You have to be on meeting, in a meeting at this time. So that's where you know if you are a worker or not. But you should see that the office, nine to seven, yeah, wear your suit, I'm a manager of this, I'm that, I'm that.

Yeah. You might be lazy. And lazy people do a good job too, because lazy people find a strategy of avoiding work. That's true. Which is very intelligent. Yes. Yeah, they find ways.

Yes, that's true. To get things done without really putting in the work. That is true. Yeah, there's so many books like that, The Four Hour Work Week, you know? Yeah. There's a lot of books on people just trying to avoid work. Yeah. But they still have to move to wash

their dishes, their clothes. Like dishwasher for example. I think it is the idea of some lazy person that didn't want to wash dishes. Are you agree with me? So a lazy person didn't want to wash dishes so they hired a dishwasher? No, they invented. Oh, they invented dishwasher. Oh, a machine. Yeah, they thought about it like, yeah, how can I get my dishes clean without have to wash it? Also, it's more efficient because you can put them in the dishwasher. It's efficient but the idea come from laziness. Interesting. I mean he might be, I'm not saying he's the thing, but he might be coming from laziness. You have a point.

I don't want to wash my clothes anymore. But I still need to wear a clean clothes. How can I do to get my clothes clean without washing them? Make a machine. That's true. Because you only wear one piece of clothes a day and you only eat, use one plate when you eat. How hard is it to wash that one plate? It takes 30 seconds. You get some soap, you get a sponge, rinse it off, put it in the dryer, you're

done. Like I have a... That's a good point, man. I never thought of it that way. I get in my house and this is something that I still don't understand. Sometimes I would leave plates around and then if I have my housekeeping coming, they'll always take them and put in the dishwasher and everything in the dishwasher. And I don't know what happened if it's the dishwasher, something wrong with it, it never get cleaned properly. Well, you kind of have to clean them before you put them in the dishwasher, which is crazy.

So if you just clean them a little bit more, you wouldn't have to put them in the dishwasher, you probably save time. Okay, personally, I never use a dishwasher. I don't know how it works. And I don't know how it works. The easier thing for me is after using one or two plates, I wash it, I put it there. It's easier. Or even if I stack like three, four plates after I come,

take five minutes, clean it, put it there. It's easier for me than running machine and this, which I don't even know how it works Too much and it's gonna sometimes it might be loud. I would just want to watch my TV and that shit is Yeah, that's true that's a good point yeah, that is a lazy person's invention a smart lazy person Yeah, yeah, people are very creative That is a lazy person's invention. A smart, lazy person. Yeah. People are very creative. Very. I never thought about it that way, but I think you're right.

Yeah. But then there's some things like vacuum cleaner. You need that. How the fuck are you gonna get anything out of a carpet without a vacuum cleaner? You need that. Yeah. There's some inventions that clean that make sense.

But I think. I mean, everything makes sense. Even like a washing machine makes sense. Yeah. After training, you come and put your clothes there. You train twice a day. You put your clothes. After two days, you press that button on the machine

when you are leaving. Because if that brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr educated people are just avoiding work by continuing their education. I know personally people that have done that. They get their PhD, they get grants, they get loans. I know, you go in like a family house and then there are like maybe four kids. There's dishes they have to clean the house and then someone have a homework and even if he does have a homework is reading a book He's a bit of the book. So that means he's not cleaning anything Because he's reading you guys are not reading you have to clean so how is he? Well people love to put off things they're supposed to do, you know It's it's an interesting thing too about fighters because the difference between, there's like a lot of factors involved in being

a fighter. There's the mentality, there's the ability to focus and to perform under pressure. It's very difficult to do, but there's also the ability to prepare properly. So like to have the discipline to do everything that you're supposed to do and it's even more difficult sometimes for talented people. Yeah, I think fighting is more about discipline because not always talented people will make it. And you might have talent as much as you want. If you don't work, if you don't put some work in and then get disciplined, you will not get there.

You don't like, if you look like the champions of every weight class, every promotion, most likely they are not the most talented guy, but they are very hard working and they have like something very special that Did that distinguish them? Do you know the expression? Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's true. Yeah, it is absolutely you cuz Talent one of the things that's unfortunate about talent is that when you're talented you're better than else in the gym. And so you can kind of get away without training is hard. Maybe you have physical gifts. Maybe you just have an understanding of

fighting. And then you take it for granted because you didn't have to work to get it. You don't even have the feeling that you need to work to work more to improve it because he was just there. Right. So you don't even understand that they work for it. You just happen to have it. Yep. And then they say you have to work for it. Come on bro, for what? Right. I didn't do anything. Right. But I still get it. And if you can get away with it for a while, you develop habits of not training 100%. Not really putting 100% into it, but still being successful because you're talented. But then you run into someone who's talented and has discipline. And 100% not really putting 100% into it, but still being successful because you're talented

But then you run into someone who's talented and has discipline and that's when you get fucked up Okay, and that's the problem right when you get talent and discipline you get a Michael Jordan And then you get Mike Tyson talent and discipline you get Mike Tyson Yeah, and then you get to you also get like some people that are not talented, but they are just the best walker in the room. Mm-hmm Your talent will have at some point talent will have a limit. Yes. Yeah, that has a limit Especially if someone is willing to really outwork you really outwork everyone Yeah, he has to because like, when you don't have talent,

you basically start from nothing. Then you have one, then you have two, then you know that you have those two because you've been working. So you have to keep working, not only to maintain to keep the two, but to get the three and the four. Yes. And then you get into that process and then you get to work. Yeah. When you get talent get talent you wake up someday you have five out of ten without working Yes, you don't understand that you need to work to get a six and seven right a guy that only has like the two He already understood that he already knew that he needs to you need to work to get those two to get the three Yes, so at some point's gonna catch you at five. And if you're not improving, he's gonna keep going up.

He's gonna get to six and seven. And you'll be like, this motherfucker was below me. At five, or barely go at six, seven. Yeah, and then there's guys that are really good in the gym. And then when they get to the bright lights, they can't perform. Yeah. Which is the craziest thing.

There's these superstars in the gym. And I remember from my kickboxing days, there was guys that were just so good in the gym. And then they would get into that ring and they were just, you could see it, they just diminished. Like they were 50% of themselves when they competed. Why do you think that? I don't know.

Maybe there's something about anxiety, their inability to manage stress. Maybe I don't know. I don't know what it is. I always feel like some people can overcome it and they don't and some people do. Some people they start off as great gym guys and then they perform badly but then eventually they figure it out. They just keep keep growing and learning. But there are also a lot of people that go to the gym to become a world champion at the gym. You know I have seen a lot of there's a lot of

people that you get even in the gym, they are coming to try to figure out that guy. He's good, so I might have to check him out. You know, they have that mentality. So in the gym, while you maybe as a professional fighter, you are there to train, have a good training to learn. Yes. Because you know that you only have one place

that you wanna show up. Is in the fight. Right. The two other months, you're in the gym, and sometimes if you have somebody in front of you that you feel like he's not catching up with your level, you give him an advantage. You're like, okay

Let me start on the back, right? Let's start on this position right advantage so he can challenge you more Yes, you know what you're doing. You know why you are doing that that takes a healthy control of your ego You take you see a guy that is a good wrestler a good jujitsu, but has very bad striking you know that he's you always start on a stand up, you always start up and then he he might not be able to take you down I'm like okay let's go. They start on the ground, step on me, half guard, full guard, stuff like that because you know that you want to work that position. You're taking advantage on him.

But some people are there like to prove that, oh, I'm something. They're competing instead of training. They're competing. Yeah, they're competing. And they don't usually gain more on that. And those people will get in the fight and it's different. Yeah, it's different. That is a very interesting thing, right? It's like some people understand it objectively like

I'm here to learn and grow and I need to work on my weaknesses to make them my strengths and some people want to avoid their weaknesses so they only work on their strengths so they look good in the gym. Yeah yeah because they care about how they look. Yeah I used to see that a lot with kickboxers that didn't want to do jujitsu, because they didn't like to get tapped, because on the feet they were a killer. And then they go to the ground,

they're like, ugh, they're like a beginner. They don't like that. They don't like getting dominated on the ground. So they would just like skip jujitsu classes, skip wrestling training. They didn't want to have anything to do with that. I think it was also about like a generation that people around the gym wasn't understanding also.

Like there's a gym, there are people that if you're training with them and something happen and you tap, they'll be like, oh, we're pussy. Right. And I think those kind of people They don't have their teammate to improve, you know Instead of like oh, no, you shouldn't do this or you should do this instead to avoid To avoid that. I'm like, oh no, bro. You don't tap like yeah, you don't tap then what you go to sleep

Or you break your arm. Yeah, you don't tap in the what? You go to sleep? Or you break your arm. Or you break your arm? Yeah, if you don't tap in the gym, you're a moron. Yeah, it's a stupid thing to not tap in the gym, and I've been stupid before. It's like a thing that people do where they think that they're... Yeah, all you're doing is getting injured. And if you don't tap to an arm bar, you're going to fuck your elbow up. And then you might not be able to train right for months. Yes. Then what? Yeah, you know the Gracie's have a great perspective on that They always say keep it playful

They always say that when you're in the gym You're you're just training and learning and you got to keep it playful Marcello Garcia says that all the time Who's one of the greatest jiu-jitsu guys of all time? He says you have to open up your game in the gym. You can't be closed off be too defensive You have to open up your gym your your game and learn that what happens if you get stuck in bad positions Yeah, learn what you get caught you get caught you tap and even if you don't get top cut sometime Get your position in some in get yourself in a position to get caught Yeah, let somebody cut you and trying to defend.. Understand like how to get out of there. You

do that. That's why they call it practice. Do you think you'll ever compete in Jiu-Jitsu? You ever think that's something that's interesting to you? Me? Yeah. No. I don't think so. I don't have any knees or ankles to give up. That's a good point. Man, I watched a video this past weekend of a guy getting his leg broken. If I was 25, yes. I'm gonna send you this Jamie, because this is horrific. If I was 25, 20, 25, I would take those chances to all those stuff, fun. Yeah fun yeah why I don't have anything to give up yeah

that's um I'm gonna show you something Jamie this this video scared the fucking shit out of me this video is this guy gets caught in this heel hook Hold on a second, where is it? Yeah, I'm gonna send it to you Jamie. Yeah, I'm sending it to you Jamie. This shit's horrible. This guy gets caught in an inside heel hook like 10 seconds into the match and he doesn't tap and his leg snaps in half. Yeah. Back step. Watch this. That's stupid.

Check this out out so this guy they scramble that sound play that again so I can hear that sound very long time That's in South Africa. That's South Africa. Oh! Oh! Punch me in the face, bro. Yeah, that leg might not ever be the same again. No, punch me in the face. No, not the leg. Yourself. Like, do you imagine, like, just thinking of the day

that your leg make this sound, like, oh! God damn. It's that right here right yeah yes like the spiral yeah spiral fracture was the shin horrible yeah and the sound was like a baseball bat breaking yeah I'll never forget the sound when Chris Weidman kicked Uriah Hall and snapped his knee and snapped his shin in half the sound was so horrible. That crying he's never been the same again.

You know, it's like that those breaks, like especially the shin break. You know, I wonder, like if Conor McGregor is ever going to come back again. It's like it's very difficult to come back from that break. That was that's one of the worst injuries. And I think for that kind of injury, the most difficult part is the mental part. You don't know if it's going to be there again. Right. To try to get to like, obviously, you have your rehab.

Right? Right. You rehab the part that is injured. Right. right? But you rehab the part that is injured. But the rehab of your mind to be able to trust that again, that is a problem. I don't know about that. Maybe we just skip this part. Well, even when you're not injured, like your fight with Stipe and then you fight Derek Lewis, in the back of your mind, you're still thinking about the Stipe fight, right? I'm still fighting Stipe.

I'm still like, what the hell, why did I do this? No, I should be patient. I should do this. I'm there fighting Stipe. And then I get surprised when the fight was over. And then I'm like, okay, this is it. We still have one more round, right? Because I was just being patient. Yeah. Well you came back from that though. How did you come back from that?

How did you get your mind straight? I mean, I think I get to the point that I just Let it go and I'm like okay because I'm like if this the end at least let's finish how we started. At the beginning he was all fun. Right. Like having fun. I feel like at some point along the way I lost that fun I don't know when but I lost that fun and it don't know when, but I lost that fun. And it's about like, oh, we need you have to win. You shouldn't lose this, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So did you make a decision in your mind to go back to having fun again? Yeah. It was just like have fun. And then whatever happened, happened. Don't, don't care. And if this is it, if you lose again and then maybe have to get caught or whatever, at least enjoy it. So is this-

And then I get in China, have to fight Curtis Blade, 45 seconds, it was over. I'm like, yeah, not bad then keep going. So did you ever work with a psychologist or a performance coach or did you figure it out yourself? I try but I think I have a personal blockage. I don't believe in that. Really? Yeah. I don't know. I talk to myself a lot. I spend time with me, with myself. I mean, most of the time I'm by myself. I'm a lonely person.

So I spend time with myself and I talk to myself a lot. I figure out and analyze. And this was just me like growing up, you know, didn't even have like, didn't have friend, didn't have like people to hang out with. I wasn't welcome among kids. So I created my own world in my mind that my own friends and everything in my mind. So just used to hang out with myself.

So I get used to just like that. Well that's so much better for a person in your position in life than to have an entourage. So I know a lot of guys when they get very successful they have an entourage so they're surrounded by yes men all the time and that is one of the worst things that happens to a successful person. But for them, for some people, it's cool. Like even now, I think no later than last week, I was in the restaurant and I walked there by myself, take a table, sit down.

Do people look over there like, is that fucking Francis Ngana? Yeah, order my food, eat. Do people freak out? Like, is that Francis Ngana sitting by himself? Yeah, some people recognize you, I there like, is that fucking Francis Ngom? Yeah, order my food, eat. Do people freak out? Like, is that Francis Ngom sitting by himself? Yeah, some people recognize you. I'm like, yeah, are you expecting somebody? And most of the time, the answer is yes.

Basically, like, leave me alone. Right. So you generally like being by yourself? Yeah, I like to. I do that a lot. And people are like, are you live here by yourself? Are you by yourself? I'm like, what's the problem by being by yourself? It's been independent. I'm free. I don't need anybody to be to decide on my happiness or me having fun or whatever. You know,

like, sometimes I will spend two days in my house without going out. Yeah. And I'm good with it. And I can go out. I can do whatever I want, but I just want to be there. I did that recently. You know, my family was out of town and I was home by myself for three days. It was glorious.

I loved it. Yeah. Just gives you time to think about things. I do that a lot but recently I've been changing a little bit because like Staying home a lot will make me think and will make me sad Since I lost my kid my boy that you make me think and make me sad and if I stay there I will keep I will keep having those thought sadness around, it's like the energy around me is just sad.

I understand. You know? So, then what I do is like when I start to feel something like that, I just have to force myself, like get out, grab the car key, get the hell out of here. Like I'm running away from something. Then by the time you even find the car key, you find your shoes you do

this your mind is already thinking of something but if you just so sorrow just sorrow yeah if you just sit in your couch then it's keep going keep going then it's sad then you're pissed then you're like hate life everything your son was 15 months old? 15 months old. What happened? Bro, I think he has some malformation on his brain, which is something that we didn't know. He fainted, He passed out twice. The first time was in Kimeroun. We took him to the hospital.

They didn't find anything. The second time was in Saudi. We took him to the hospital. They ran a lot of exams. They didn't do anything. They did the EEG. They didn't do the scan or the MRI because I think according to them, their conclusion was that he has a swollen lung, you know, and that was what was pressing his chest and stopping him from breathing and create that faint. So after all those exams they give him some medicine that is going to be okay, nothing to worry about.

Because at first they haven't thought about asthma. They give like a ventilator and then afterward after some result they took it out and then you know he put me in confident even though like I don't know sometimes I think some way in my mind I have to think that, yes, but he didn't show any stress respiratory if he was something from his lung. But I'm like, bro, those was professional doctor and this, and then I trust that. So I basically like put my card down and I remember being just getting in Dubai and that day I was thinking like oh life is... meanwhile I'm not doing bad life is good you know I went to the gym like maybe I

should go to club tonight and I don't go to club I don't go out like man come on which kind of guy you I went to the gym what to work out I'm in the bike cycling then I trying to call I wanted to talk to him when I was in on the phone on the bike then I call his mom his mom didn't pick up the phone. And I'm like, ah, after I'm done, I'm going to go take my shower, lay in the bed and call her. And 30 minutes after I was on the leg machine, my phone rang. It was my little brother. Say, bro, things are not going well here. I'm like what? He said Kobe passed out, he's not breathing. We are at the hospital, they kicked me out from the room.

Now I'm like what's happened? And then as we are talking, he's also trying to get information. So I lost him for like three, four minutes. Then after I call him again, and then I'm talking to him while he's talking to the nurse and the nurse was like who are you? Are you his dad? He said no then who are you? I'm his uncle where is that? His dad is not here. Where? He's gone Just like that He's gone, what do you mean? He's gone

How come he's gone? This kid was 15 months. He was bigger than 15 months. He was growing. He was the most Joyful happy kids around Hey What do you mean he's gonna gonna wear well that was it I thought I was dreaming I thought they're gonna say some no that's not true then I keep calling again and everybody is confirmed, I call my mom, my mom is just on tear like bro, what the fuck is this? and that was it, wow

and I never realized, I have been in the situation that I have seen people losing their kids, mourning maybe, definitely older kids but I'm like man this must be hard even though I can feel it. At that moment I mean I don't you don't know like what could be your reaction you You don't know. I have been in the situation that I'm like, bro, I don't cry, I never cry. I mean, not like I never cry, but I don't just, it don't just happen. I don't know why. No, maybe because you don't have a reason.

When you feel like something really hurt inside you, like you can breathe, it's hurting. That was it. And when did this happen? April 27th. So this before the Joshua fight? No, after. After the Joshua fight. Yeah, April 27th, almost two months after.

That was it. And then all of the sudden you realize how a kid that wasn't there two years ago has become a major part of your life or if it's not your life then you realize that all the thing that you were worrying about didn't mean shit at all nothing mean like nothing it was the only thing at time that really matter. Yeah. But it's not there anymore. But, you know, one thing is that, you know, my dad passed away, I was 15 and he got sick,

just stay at home for like months and couldn't even go to the hospital. And get to the point that he couldn't even go to the hospital and get to the point that he couldn't even go to the bathroom on his own, nothing. But I was 15, I was still at school, you know I always tell myself like I was a kid what could I have done and then after a couple years I left school and then I started thinking. I'm like, okay. I had an excuse when my dad passed away.

I think I'm becoming an adult and I'm so powerless. I still can't do anything if something like that happened. What happened if my mom gets sick? What happens if I have my own kids? Like, someday, and they need me, or I will provide for them, like, or protect them. And those was one of the thoughts that I always have, like, pushing me, leaving. Like, no, I need to do something, I need to take action.

pushing me leaving. Like no, I need to do something, I need to take action. Then after years, you get to the point that you feel like you have it figured out. Like okay, I can afford a healthcare for my family, I can take care if somebody needs to go to the hospital or whatever it is, I'm gonna make it is I'm gonna make it I'm gonna do it you know then all of the sudden your own kids which is the one that rely on you only you you couldn't even do anything for him you did like by the time you get to the hospital he was gone you couldn't fight for him I'm did like by the time he get to the hospital he was gone. He couldn't fight for him.

I'm like bro let me fight. Let me say I have tried. Let me say I did something. Let's make all this work. What's the point if after all this I get to the point that I'm still this powerless in front of a real situation and that that was that's hurt yeah I'm sorry to hear that man I can't imagine I can't imagine and it's also the pain of knowing there's nothing you could have done. It's just a medical thing that he was born with. Yeah, he was born with, because when it happens, everybody was confused, nobody knows. So get home, then what should we do? Let's do it autopsy.

That one was tough, because you think that they say you know what that they gonna tear him, cut him, cut his head. Like I mean a kid that yesterday you were going excited to talk to him now they are talking about like, cut him this way, this way. Like how come that is like, oh. But, you know, it's at least good to know what happened. Maybe that might save somebody in the future because he's still a mystery there. So, say, let's do the autopsy. That's why they find all this out.

Yeah. The last time I saw him was me leaving Cameroon, going to the elevator, and he was with my little brother and he didn't want me to go because he became my body so much that he didn't when I'm around he don't want me to leave him alone. I can take him wherever I go. He might not eat. He doesn't care as long as he's with me.

Like that was it. He was my mate like 15 months. He's barely working. But you know, when I worked in, you know that I worked in. You don't have to ask like who walked in. They know that it's his dad. You know, his reaction. Or then you start to think about all those little things,

all those little things that you guys have, just you want him, then it's over. Then it's over then he's over when he was the day that I was living he was crying like wanted me to go with him but I keep going I knew that I'm going to be back I have no clue that that was it. I always say I should have gone back one more time. And one more day. I know, I came one more time. Man.

Yeah. That was it. And then he get back in the apartment and see all his toys the stuff that he was playing the thing that you take from him the other day and put here, it's right there

but he's not there anymore and will never be there anymore. be there anymore. Kobe. Kobe was his name. I named him after Kobe Bryant because I had a great memory of Kobe Bryant the day that the USA was launching was announcing the

partnership with Buddy Amo was in New York. I just arrived in the US at time my English was so bad. I'm in New York we have to meet in this room, this event to make the announcement and I'm there a little early, then Kobe came a little early too. Meet me in the waiting room. Just Kobe and I there for like 30 minutes. I don't, my English is very bad, I'm embarrassed. I don't wanna speak and then they keep talking, asking questions, talk about my story.

Ask me where I came from and how do I get, and I'm like, wow, this impressive. I'm like, this is Kobe, right? I don't wanna bother him, but he's questioning me, really excited about it, get me to talk. Then I feel bad, I'm like, oh no, your English is really good, I understand what you're saying. And then how about this, I'm like, oh no, your English is really good, I understand what you're saying and then how about this, that?

Like for 30 minutes. Until then, they know why it was the next guy that walked in the room and he said, wow, do you know this guy's story? Do you know his story? He did this, he did that, they know why I said, yes, I know. Like, wow, this crazy, wow. It's crazy how we in America, we don't know what's going on around the world. And Kobe was there talking like that.

I'm like, this is Kobe Bryant. So that was like my moment with Kobe. So when he passed out, when he died, I was in LA when I heard about the news and it hit me really bad. And I decided I'm going to make Kobe, I'm going to have Kobe. So that's it. The day that he passed away, just the day before they were just making his little basketball court that I have for him his playground for him you know because I was so wait for him to start to be strong on his feet so we can go work we can do this we can play

soccer I've been looking for soccer clips for him. This, that, you know, you have all the projects. I have thought of like which school should he go, like think, oh, what should I do, you know. You never know, maybe something happened to me. I should set up something to keep him safe you know you think like that but no it never crossed your mind that he would be the one living first from the moment that he was born not like when he was born when he started to react and you really see like a living person, you really start to plan out like how to protect him,

how to build a security around him. He wasn't just a kid, he was a project, he became a huge project. Everything that you think of that's good, that you want, Oh, it's for Kobe, it's for him. All of the sudden, then he's gone. Wow. Yeah. You've been through a lot in your life, Francis.

Yeah. You've been through a lot in your life, Francis. Yeah. You've been through a lot. Well, a lot of people have been through it. You didn't just know. Yeah. Then after that, you look at people that have been through, that lost a kid. You respect them more. You give them some more respect.

Like my older brother lost two kids. And I feel so bad not really being there for him because I didn't understand. I know that he lost kids but I didn't know what exactly that means. Now that I understand I'm like man I should have been there more. You know I feel bad that I didn't connect to his to his suffering to his pain and you respect him more from being through that to overcome that twice then you think like you just started think like no fact, I think I'm not the toughest one though. I've been putting in tests and realized that I'm not as tough as I think.

There's nothing anybody could say. That's the craziest thing. There's no comfort that anybody can give you. If they ask you what you want or what can comfort you, you don't know. There's nothing. It's nothing. There's nothing that can happen. It's really about facing it daily, take it one at a time.

Do you have other children? Yeah, I have another girl. I have another girl. But when it happens like that, you feel like, I don't know, even though you're in your mind, you think like you still have a lot going on, a lot of things to be grateful about But in your heart you feel like you're broke. You have nothing Nothing is worth it. I mean, I always love life and know that I have know that I have everything of society, but at least for once, I'm like,

at least whenever I die, I'm going to go see my kid. I'm going to see him. least whenever you get to that point, to think like that. So some way you're looking forward for whenever that happens. Wow. I'm very sorry for your loss, man. I really am. I wish I could say something, but there's nothing to say. There's nothing to say, Joe. Thank you, though. Thank you. And thank you for being here, man. Thank you for everything. You're an inspirational man. You really are.

Thank you. Appreciate it. I appreciate you being here, and best of luck to you in everything in life. We will see. That's why I really want to come back and'm like why do I fight for you know I don't even have to I don't want but bro that boy for 15 for only 15 months I think he he took me something you know like he was active full of life and I think if there's one thing that he would have been doing, he would have been doing something, not staying there, not being a reason of giving up or whatever and I think that's the only way to honor him, his memory, keep him alive, get a purpose, make him a motivation.

Motivation. Yeah. I think so. We will see. We will see how it plays out. Yeah. Again, thank you Francis. Thank you for being here man. I really appreciate you. Thank you Joe.

Alright. Bye buddy. Bye, everybody.