The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #173 with Benny "The Jet" Urquidez & William "Blinky" Rodriguez

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Joe sits down with retired kickboxer, martial arts choreographer, and actor Benny “The Jet” Urquidez, and his brother-in-law, kickboxer, martial arts instructor, and community leader William “Blinky” Rodriguez.www.youtube.com/@BennyTheJetUrquidezwww.bennythejet.teachable.comwww.bennythejet.comwww.cisgla.org Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Stream UFC 324 Saturday at 9PM Eastern – only on Paramount+. Visit https://paramountplus.com/ufc. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joe Rogan podcast, checking out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Gentlemen, what's happening? Where do we begin? Where do you begin? Let me tell you, when I first came to Los Angeles in 1994, there was two places that I had to go. One of them was the Comedy Store, and the other one was the Jet Center.

And I started training the Jet Center in 94 before you guys shut down because you had the earthquake and you had the roof damage. So I was there before that happened, and I took your classes. I took your kickboxing classes because I remember it was very scary because he had a bunch of gang members in there. Because you were doing that sort of outreach program where you're helping young gang members. So I had a spar with gang members. So I was training at the Jets Center until it shut down. And then I went briefly when you guys reopened in North Hollywood. I went to that place for a little bit too.

Yeah. But then I started training at Majiro Gym, which is in the Valley. But legends. You guys are legends, man. Well, thank you, Joe. True pioneers in martial arts. For you to remember was really humbled me.

You remembered, you mentioned my son and why I was starting that. Yes. And you don't even know what it's grown into since that day that you've seen what was going on. Tell the story about your son and how that whole thing started. Well, you know, unfortunately in some communities,

drive-bys aren't uncommon and so when it becomes a generational curse you know and and kids are getting killed sometimes randomly that happened to me it came knocking on my door in a valley that's got two million people knocked on my door

and I was just I'm going to put it this way I had a calling on my life to to do something about it because it became a situation where families and community was like, well, yeah, well, that's what happens in our community. And I was saying, that is not what happens in our community.

This is our community. And so I begin to move. I begin to move, ironically, with some churches that had that kind of ministry in their ministry and peace marches, et cetera. But my son got shot while he was learning how to do. drive a stick shift. Wow. And it took his life.

And that's not normal. And that should not be common. And so I'm still at it. You're still doing that. Still going, 36 years later, put an organization together. And some with real lived experience, others with degrees and really put together a whole nonprofit that speaks directly to it where it's at. And so at the end of the day.

day, yeah, it's over when we say it's over. You know what I mean? And ironically, what led the charge for me, at least Joe, was forgiveness, the forgiveness that only God can give. I got to tell it the way it is. And that forgiveness ended up taking me to the neighborhood that killed my son. And we had a huge meat. in that neighborhood in the park. And a peace treaty kicked into place. No mother's crying, no baby's dying. So to this day, I still continue to press in

with a whole different, how would I say, integrated service delivery, but keeping violence in the middle of it and dealing with it. That's awesome. But, yeah. And it's awesome that you brought them to a place like the Jets and.

where they can learn discipline, learn how to fight, build real confidence, you know, learn real martial arts skills and also real martial arts mentality, especially when it's coming from guys like you. You know, I mean, I remember when you knocked out Jean-Eve Terrio. John Eve Terrio was the fucking man. He was the man.

Everybody was terrified of that guy. And I believe you knocked him out of the left hook. Is that correct? Right leg left hook. Yeah, the combo. The more traditional shoulder-a-con sweeps. Yeah. But you turn it over with the instill.

and you know what I'm talking about. Yes, sir. And you sit and come back with the money. Yeah. But it was, and he's a bad dude. He went on to have a great career. Amazing career. Yeah, I mean, he's one of the all-time greats in kickboxing.

No, yeah. And, you know, it's just, I think it's important for people to recognize the real pioneers. And, Benny, you were a real pioneer. I mean, there was no one like you when you emerged. When you emerged in the kickboxing scene, the karate scene, there was no one like you. And, you know, you went undefeated, and you took on people of all sizes. And to this day, there's amazing highlights of you on the Internet that people still bring up.

Because, you know, you were fighting ties when you had no training like that. You know, you were getting low kicked by those dudes and still found out a way to win. It's pretty crazy. Well, you know, I tell you, it was when my brother asked me, would you want to fight a tie? You know, and I said, what's Thai? He said, Muay Thai. And I said, I'll fight him. I honest, I thought that was his name.

I had no idea what Muay Thai was at the time. And so we took it on. Where was the first Muay fight that you had? Matter of fact, it was at the Olympic Auditorium when we first fought. In Los Angeles? Yes, Ernest Hart fought the first Thai champion, and that was the main event. And I'll tell you what, when I first got kicked in the legs, my eyes bowled out of my forehead. I said, I mean, I have strong legs, but I've never had anybody try to break my legs.

And so it was a rude awakening, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me because he took me to the streets. He really did because when he started abling, kneeing to my face, and I said, oh, you want to fight that way, okay. I didn't understand it. I just thought that... All right. Did you know what the rules were? No. Oh, that's crazy.

So you didn't know they were going to use elbows or knees? No. That is crazy. All I knew is... Muay Thai. Norong Noi. Noirang Noi was the guy that he fought that night. Lompigny Stadium.

Yeah, he was a great champion as well. Oh, without a doubt. That's so crazy that you didn't even know what you were. were in for. Like, who was the promoter that set that up? You know, actually, believe it or not, my brother, Arnold, was asked, you know, he says, he was calling me the world champion because in 73, it was called full contact karate. And Blink and I, we went to Hawaii and no rules, no weight divisions, no nothing.

So for the... How much did you weigh back then? 145. Wow. And so I ended up beating, actually... 160. And Blinky, there was four of us left after we fought five, six times on Friday, and then we fought a couple more times on Sunday.

You fought two days? Yeah, there was that many, no rule. It was just weight division. I mean, there was no weight division. It was just brackets. That's it. So Blinky ended up fighting. There was four of us.

I fought Bernice White. And I told Blinky, I said, you know what? This guy, now he's, you know, he's 245 pounds, Dana Goodson, 6'3-3-and-I-3, and I said, Blinky, they don't want to see you and I fight. They want to see David and Goliath. They want to see me fight him. And I said, so if you don't knock him out, you're not going to win, because this guy, they're kind of, you know, wanting to keep him up.

And sure enough. And I said, Blinky, if you're not. You don't knock him out, you don't, you know, hurt him for me. So I knew I was going to fight him next. And so that's what it was. So he was 240 pounds? Yeah, 245 pounds. And you were 1.45.

Yeah. Wow. You could pick him up and throw him around, so I got him tired. So what were the rules? There was no rules at all? No rules. So could you stomp on the ground? Could you soccer kick?

Could you do all that? You know what? There was no rules. I actually threw him. I pinned him on the ground. He started to roll me over. I spit my moppy side. I bit him on the chest.

Oh, my God. He palm strikeed my face, and we got up, and my teeth mark was on his chair. He said, you bit me. And I said, I was getting tired. So did they have submissions? Did anybody know submissions back then? No.

Well, you know what? We did, because we were, we, uh, In judo, you know, we're Black Ballets and Judo man. Back in 60, we were already doing judo and making out, we were already boxing back then. So we had a good idea of the contact. It's just there was no rules at the time, no rules, no weight divisions. It was just elimination. So that happened for almost two years, from 73 to 75, and then it started, that's when I first heard of Muay.

Are there any of those no rules fights available on video? Can people watch any of those fights? Absolutely. Are they online? No. Where are they? Actually, there's some, but you know what? We don't know.

Actually, I'm doing a documentary, and we're bringing a lot of, I have film from 69 to 96. I'm two millimeter, Miller, I mean, I'm talking about, beta, and they're actually putting together old fights. So you'll see Blik and I way back then fighting black and white. And then there's some available online that are. So this is you against, how do you say that guy's name? Kayat Bandit, Nagaroni Kayat Bandit. So is this another Muay guy? Yes.

So was this after you had fought Muay already previously? Yes. Because I started to recognize what it was about. Mm-hmm. So how many Muay Thai fights had you had before you fought this guy? Two. Two. So when you trained in this, like when, so after the first fight, did you bring in a

Muay guy to train with and explain you elbows and show you how they're throwing their techniques? How did you learn how to deal with these guys? Basically, somebody had black and white with filming, and I kind of looked at it. And I went to an old gentleman that you used. used to do, actually do clothing and shoes and so forth in this leather shop. And I asked him, I said, I want to protect my shins. You're older, man.

And I said, I want to protect my shins. You have something, and he brought out some pad. And I said, yeah, and I told him, I want to put it around my shins. So I created the first shin guards. You were the guy who invented the shin guard? Yeah. Oh, that's great. And I told him, how do we keep it together?

And he said, and he's the one that brought out, the Valcrow. Wow. And so he put on, he sold on Velcro on it. And so I ended up asking them, can you make more of them? And I started giving to it. That's how, because we were doing, we were doing late checking because we were watching them. But it was hurting us. Like, what the heck?

Yeah. You know, how did they do it? And then. So you were, you guys were doing a Bear Shinn. Yeah. So bear shin, leg kicking, training hard. Yeah. That's all.

We didn't know any other way. So what were the Ties doing back then? How were they protecting their shins? Well, you know what? They had a spray, numbing spray. They were spraying their shins. Like light a cane or something like that kind of like you couldn't, they couldn't feel it. They couldn't feel the impact.

So after you invented shin guards, is that how shing guards made their way to Thailand? I put it this way. When I went to Thailand and to work with some of the ties, I looked at them, I said, oh, they're finally, because they didn't have them. I said, oh, you got shin guards here, and I was surprised. But a lot of them didn't even use them still. And some of these high up in the hills, the way they trained, they didn't train with shingars. They just sprayed their shins. Oh, my God.

Kick banana trees. Yeah. I've seen that. I've seen bull cow kicking. banana tree and cutting it in half. Yeah. See, the problem with that is I was stuck in the blinking. I said, you know, we got a lot of nerves on our shins.

And I said, and so we had a doctor that was one of our students. And I asked them about that. And he says, once you break, you tear all the tissues and the nerves of your shin. He said, later on it will affect you. This is the reason why I started designing. So we can, and I mean, these were like homemade shin guards. So did you ever work out with a Thai man, like a Muay Thai fighter, who was showing you how they do the techniques,

or did you only learn it from film? I only learned from the film. Wow. Was there any Thai guys in L.A. at that time? No. Wow. At that time, there was none. When was the first Maitai gym started opening up in L.A.?

It's hard to remember because we weren't tracking with them. We were just figuring out how to fight them. Right. And give them, oops, give them like lateral movement because everything was linear. Right. Everything was linear. So the American side of kickboxing. So, you know, obviously you had more hands, but they would clinch.

Once they clench, they'd nullify that. So we were just making adjustments along the way. Especially in Japan, this is basic when we really started, because they started bringing us back there one right after another they started bringing us back there after I, you know, I took their belt

and they couldn't believe Americans just went in there and took their belt from them and they didn't like it, they didn't want it and they kept having us come back taking that, trying to take that belt back. In Japan? In Japan. Never happened.

Wow. Wow. And you gotta realize like back then, this is like, post-Brusely movies. So martial arts had exploded, karate had exploded worldwide. Everybody wanted to learn martial arts. And Japan was kind of at the forefront of the kickboxing movement, right? Because they had had a bunch of Muay guys, fight Japanese guys, and the karate guys lost to the Muay guys,

and then they had to adjust. And then they got rid of elbows and created kickboxing because they wanted more excitement. They wanted to get rid of the clinch and get rid of the elbows. And then K1 was formed out of that. That's right. It's like you're like really like patient zero. Like you know what I'm saying?

Like the real mixed martial arts movement really became with you guys. True. It's, you know, I was going to say, you know, there was a phase there because you mentioned Chuck Norris earlier, that he raised money in Detroit. And he had done Into the Dragon. So you had that notoriety. and he had a cattle call. So fighters came from all over Southern Cal to his dojo in Santa Monica, and it was single eliminations to the knockout

to see which five guys would represent L.A. And the same was going on in New York, the New York Dragons, Detroit, the Detroit Dragons, D.C., the D.C. Dynamos, and then the Texas gladiators. Those were the teams people were vying for, and we participated. I ended up becoming the middleweight starter, and he was the lightweight.

And then Steve Sanders, who was the old name in traditional karate, three of his guys from the Black Karate Federation, Ernest Madman Russell, Danny Ferguson, Sugar Bear, we were the L.A. team. And what's crazy is that you won as a team. If you went out there and knocked the guy out or you got knocked out,

they got 25 points. And so it was the accumulation of, points that you would get $1,500, but the losers got $700. So that took off in the last tournament or fight show that they had was in Detroit. And after that, that's when, you know, things started going another direction. But it's just interesting the way that it evolved. Have you ever heard of the PCA? Yes, sure.

Okay. So the PKK, so the PKK, started with Don Quine and Judy Quine. But only that was from the waist up. Right. And only because they were protecting Bill because he didn't like getting kicked in the legs. Superfoot. Bill Walls.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so in that... So that's why they decided not to have the legs kick? Because Bill only had one good knee, right? That's right? He had one knee that was messed up, which is why he only threw left kicks. That front leg.

That's that. That front leg. This episode is brought to you by Paramount Plus. The new era of UFC on Paramount Plus comes out, swinging. Show-stopping highlight machine Justin Gachie collides with Liverpool phenom Patty the Batty Pimblet. It's a must-see main event. Plus, Sugar Sean O'Malley faces off against Song Yudong in a stand-up war filled with high-level striking. Stream UFC 324 Saturday at 9 p.m. Eastern.

Only on Paramount Plus. Visit paramountplus.com slash UFC to get started. That front leg was nasty, though. Yeah, they were just predicated upon that, but they just waist down. See, the fight with Johnny Sterio, he was, you know, waist down, no kicks. But there was a sanction by the WK. They allowed leg kicks, leg sweeps. And that's how I was able to set them up with that.

But at the end of the day, I mean, yeah, I mean. So when you say leg sweeps, you were allowed to kick below the knee? Yes. Interesting. You could kick. And I would set them up with. the kick between the ankle and the calf. Well, what's interesting now is like that is one of the primary weapons of MMA now is the calf kick.

It's interesting, right? Because people kind of slept on the calf kick for a long time. Well, people that are dancers, they like to dance in the ring. You went for the calf, and they were flat-footed, and they couldn't dance no more. So you want to stop somebody that was dancing. You go right for the calf, and they become flat-footed. but if you had some people that had good right hands, you kick them in the thighs,

they couldn't lean on that front leg to hit with the right cross. So there was a really a method of combat, of warriorship in there that we developed over the years, that we knew how to take power from our opponent. It's just crazy that it took so long for MMA to recognize the potency of the calf kick. because, you know, I talked to Daniel Cormier, who was a two-division world champion. I talked to Michael Bisping. Michael Bispin became a middleweight world champion, never got calf-kicked his entire career.

Because the calf-kick kind of emerged after he became a champion. Now, what's really interesting is what's happening right now. So in kickboxing and in Muay, people thought, oh, the calf-kick doesn't work there because the ties know how to block it. Well, the Japanese fighters, the Kyokishin guys, are not. now dominating some of the Thai guys because they kick calves. There's this bad motherfucker from Japan named Yuki Yosa. You know who he is?

That dude is lighten these people on fire because he's just constant combinations and chopping at the calves and chopping from the inside and the outside with every combination. He needs crippling ties to the point where they can't move and they're getting beat up and knocked out. There's another guy, Masaaki, Nouri, and he's doing the same thing. And he just beat Tawan Chai, who's like one of the best Thai guys. And the way he beat him was brutalizing his calves, just kicking the inside of the calf, the outside of the calf, stopped all the movement and then caught him with a left hook. Yeah. And that's why, for me at least, going into that fight with Bill Wallace, it was like if you're not kicking calf thigh, body, and head, it's not international.

Right. Because everywhere else in the world, that's what they're doing. Because you guys are going to experience that. Whereas a lot of the karate guys. They hadn't. They hadn't experienced that yet. So the fight with Bill and I was the first live broadcast on CBS Sports Spectacular to air. Wow.

Yeah. And the irony, you know, and it is what it is. Look, I get it. I think any fighter, any champion, just a fighter, period. Rather, you know, get knocked out than get robbed. Right. Knock me out. You know, you do it.

More power to you. But so then, you know, that was. was kind of what lingered within there, and there was a time we were almost going to rematch and it didn't happen. But at the end of the day, the fight with Joe, excuse me, what's his name? Oh my God, I'm having a senior moment, Joe. You don't have those, though, Joe. I'll have them soon. Yeah, but John Nees Terrio, you know what I mean? That was the difference in that fight that I could kick the calf. And so when you got a money move that you've developed over the course of time, because we were Kempo Shodakon at first

and you know Kempo you had a little flash but with the Shodakon it was front kick it was right leg sweeps like that and so I was able to utilize that technique and it worked for me to come back with the hook the way I did but at the end of the day man it's been a long journey from there really high well we got to see some glimpses

of guys who were skillful with leg kicks fight guys who didn't know what to do with them and then their progression Because a good example is Don the Dragon Wilson when he fought Dennis Alexio. Dennis Alexio was a scary man. He was a destroyer. And back in the day, when Dennis Alexio was fighting, it was all above the waist stuff. And then he agreed to a below-the-waist kick with Don Wilson.

And Don Wilson just took his legs away. He just kept kicking. I mean, Dennis Lexi was a tank, man. That guy was a powerhouse. We knew him. Don just kept chopping at those legs and chop out those legs. And eventually, Dennis could barely move. Yeah.

Actually, Dennis ended up fighting one of our fighters. Well, was it, no, no, it was not Dennis. It was, anyway, you're from Australia. Stan Langenetus. Stan J.A.G.A. Stan the man, Langeness. The thunder from down under. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And I think he broke Dennis Alexio's leg. His femur. Yeah, he broke it with a leg kick, which is, Yes, he did. Yeah, there it is. Boom. Yeah, right there.

I think it was his... I think it was his lower leg. It seemed like it was his lower leg, yeah. Right here. Boom. Yeah, he checked it. Oh, yeah, you see it buckling. Oh, God.

Was that Dennis Alexeo's last fight? That's the last time I've seen a fight. Because, I mean, how do you... Most guys, when that happens, it's over. That's crazy So Stan the man came to stay at the Jit Center for a while So he lived in town with us For quite a while

Yeah my friend Shuki Ron from Majiro Jim said that he was training with Stan Langenez and he said he got a hip replacement Because Stan Langenetas was kicking his leg so hard With the pads on You know where to hold the shield He said he had to get a hip replacement From getting kicked that hard

How crazy is that? You know, back then, it was not how hard you hit. It was how right you were hitting. Sure. And that, and he would. Yeah. Man, when he hit, he hit that target right on the money. Well, it looked like Dennis were trying to check it.

And he didn't turn out. Yeah. Even the impact. It was the way he shot the impact. Just sheer power, too. I mean, just right on that shin bone. Crazy. Yeah.

I mean, it's, but the thing is, unfortunately what happened was PCA karate became a thing was remember you had to get a minimum amount of kicks Yeah, eight kicks You have to do math while you're fighting But it was also I'm sorry

A lot of the guys were not good kickers And so what it became is guys Who weren't that good at kicker And then they would box And it was kind of sloppy boxing And so it lost a lot of the Appeal to the American public Which was unfortunate because if they just allowed

Low Kicks from the beginning, and we got to see the guys from Japan, we got to see the guys from Thailand, we got to see you guys do all your thing. It would have probably flourished in America and been as big as MMA. Because this is something that I've been trying to push with the UFC. Because, you know, one championship fight,

they do a real good job with it, where they'll have Muay Thai fights, they'll have kickboxing fights, and they also have MMA, and they also even have grappling competitions. But I've been trying to say to the UFC, like a lot of times people boo when people go to the ground. Well, here's a solution. Have some fights where it's just stand-up fights. Have some

fights, MMA gloves, Muay Thai rules, you know, where you don't go to the ground. Like, have that. I mean, it would be incredibly exciting and have, you know, like, or you could even do a whole promotion of it. But in America, unfortunately, kickboxing because of the PCA, in what they call it, the kick of the 80s, remember back then? That's what they call it, right? P.K.a karate, the kick of the 80s. That's right. Brad Brad Hefton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a lot of guys that were really good.

Jerry Trimble, he was really good. It was very good. I met him once on a set. I think we did a commercial together or some shit. I forget what it was. But I met him when he's been doing a lot of acting. But those guys were really good. Of course, Rick Rufus.

Rick Rufus was outstanding. And he changed the course of his life from fighting a tie too. Well, he got broken down by that one tie dude. That's right. and had to learn leg kicks and how to learn what that's all about. But if they had allowed that on TV from the beginning, I think PKK karate would have been hugely successful. You know, in the PKK, because of Bill Wallace, it was from the waist from the waist out.

And so my brother and Howard Hansen started the WCA World Karate. And that's when we went to Japan and we started saying everything went because in Japan elbows on knees and so forth because they're multi-fighters over there and I figured, okay then to me there's no rules, let's go. It's interesting because in K-1 they eliminated the elbows.

They just wanted less cuts. They were like too many people are getting cut and fights are getting stopped from cuts and we just want more action. But you know, the really purpose of that is because, you know, the insurance behind it I mean people were getting

I mean, I'm talking about just their lips opened up across their eyebrows and I mean, they were getting from the elbows they were like axes going across your face with elbows and so forth and brutal. But the tie they wanted to catch you with the elbow because they wanted

you to bleed because the fight's over. Well, they're so good at slicing those elbows. And that's what really cuts you open. Especially to the forehead and the forehead bleeds like crazy. You know, it's the one decision to benefit Bill Superfoot Wallace probably screwed over kickboxing in America.

Kind of crazy because then Bill Wallace became the first commentator on the UFC. Which is ironic. The first commentator on the UFC is Bill Superfoot Wallace. That would be dang. Which is crazy because like this is no rules, Bill. Yeah. This is like, rules are completely out the window.

That's right. That's right. It's very unfortunate. because I think the development of kickboxing in this country has been stagnated. You know, and it had a shot for a while with Glory. Glory was doing really well in America. They had Last Man Standing in L.A. Remember that?

Yeah, absolutely. A crazy event, amazing event. But for whatever reason, it just didn't take hold. It was so exciting. But it just never, they had it, I believe they had it on Spike TV for a while. It just, for whatever reason, it wasn't promoted correctly. or it just didn't catch with the American public. And I genuinely don't understand it.

Couldn't get the sponsorship either, Joe. Yeah. You know? But it's with the views come to sponsors, right? And it's really just about presenting a package together and making it exciting for people. See, the thing is with the UFC in America, the UFC is so popular that if the UFC is coming to town,

everybody's going to go see the UFC. Every time the UFC's at Philly or Houston, it's like, let's go. And you get tens of thousands. of people want to come out to see the UFC. But with kickboxing, you got to sell it on these people. You've got to sell it to them. And it hasn't been sold properly yet.

The thing is the product is there. There's great strikers out there. Like, Jamie, pull up a clip of Yuki-Oza. This cat freaks me out because, like, his combinations, man, he's so lethal. And it just, you see guys who just don't know what to do with the fact that he's taken away their legs, like, right away. He does this weird thing, too, where it, like, hooks their legs, too.

Mm-hmm. And throws great boxing combinations, too. But it's, like, everything is just constantly chopping at the inside of the legs. He throws high kicks and everything. It's just, and he's just brutalizing these dudes. Mm-hmm.

And it's constant, no matter what he's doing, he's chopping your legs, taking your legs away, going inside, going outside. The kid's very good. And, you know, that Kilkishin background, you know, you guys know as well as anybody, it's such a brutal style. And they have to learn boxing afterwards because the Kilkishin competition is all punches to the chest only. But look, if you can learn how to kick, you can learn how to punch. It's just a matter of putting the time in, and this dude has put the time in.

He does a sneaky thing, too, where he throws a low kick and then he hooks their calves, and it works even on the ties. I mean, just When you see a tie getting his legs destroyed by a Japanese, you realize, wow, this sport has really changed. That's without a doubt.

It's one of the cool things about combat sports is that you see a new person rise, doing something different, and when they do, everybody else has to sort of catch up and then the techniques evolve and you see everybody rise to the level

of whatever this person's at and recognize that there's new techniques that people are using. because, you know, martial arts has evolved more since 1993 to 2026 than it did in the last 10,000 years. And it's really because of exposure and because people like you guys went out there in the early, early days and laid it all out on the line to find out. Because when I started doing martial arts was 82, 81 or 82. And back then, no matter what you, 81, no matter what you did, you thought your style was the best. And no one really knew.

You know, if you did karate, you thought karate was the best. If you did taekwondo, that was the best. And there was no competition where everybody went together that we knew of, other than we heard about your fights that you guys had in Hawaii. Everybody heard about that. It was like legendary. Like, Penny and Blinky went on Hawaii, and they fought everybody, no rules. Like, no rules.

But we figured, oh, the strikers won, striking's the way to go. It has to be. Like, the best strikers won. But then you watch the UFC, like, oh, geez, what are they doing? Like what is this Brazilian cat Who strangling everybody with a ghee on? This is nuts And it changed martial arts again

But you know everybody's looking for the next biggest thing And so far You know I mean Where do you go from there from UFC Where you can throw And you ground and pound And so forth

When you do technique Standing everybody sees it But when it goes to the ground Everybody's looking at the monitor Because you can't see nothing. Right. And so a lot of people were thinking, it's boring, but they didn't realize there was a skill on the ground, but nobody seen it and it looked boring. But when you got up, so they were paying some of the fighters to stop the opponent standing instead of going to

the ground. Well, there's a lot of promoters that definitely encourage fighters to not go to the ground. Yeah. And discourage them when they did go to the ground because they knew they could take a guy down and just holding down and beat him up a little bit and win. And the promoters is like, we're not interested in you. Which I think is not fair because it's all about fighting. And if a guy can hold you down, you have to figure out how to get up. And if otherwise we're pretending, we're pretending these techniques work. Because if a guy is like a world-class wrestler, some Division I All-American, and he takes

you down and holds you down, you got to figure out how to handle that. Otherwise, we're lying. Because the sport is about combat. It's about fighting. It's the sport of fighting. Fighting is a man that can hold you down. If he could hold you down and beat you up, why is the referee standing you up?

Why is the referee giving you an opportunity to fight? You have to figure out how to get up. You have to figure out either how to submit him off your back, sweep him, or stand up. Those are the options. A referee standing you up because the crowd's booing? That's crazy. You know, it's really true, though.

It's, I think that the crowd, you know, they want to see action, and they can't see it on the ground. But they don't realize there's a lot of action going on the ground. There's a lot of action. You know, it's almost like everybody at a car race. They want to see the racing, but they want to see a car crash, you know. And I don't understand it, but they want to see the car crash. They want to see something happen. Yeah.

They want to get excited. But that's casuals. You know, the casuals are the ones that boo when the fight goes to the ground. You can't change the rules for the casuals. You know, but that's the problem when business gets involved in sport. Yes.

You know, you start altering the rules to make it more business-friendly, which I just don't agree with. I just don't think that's the way to do it. Well, when you're talking about warriors, you know, you're talking about training samurai. Yes. They're trained to actually get in there

and do their job. and back away. Yeah. But again, you know, right now the promoters, a lot of the promoters are looking at, how can I fill my seats? Yes. You know, they don't care about the fighting.

They care about how can I bring, okay, he's popular, he'll bring more people in the seats. Yes. And that's all they're looking at. Well, it was my job in the early days of the UFC when it first got on television to explain to people what's going on when it hits the ground. So it was my job, you know, back,

I started working for the UFC in 2001. Well, I started in 97, then I started to get in 2001. And very few people, other than martial artists, understood Jiu-Jitsu. You know, I had been training at Carlson Gracie's, and then by the time 98 came around, I was training at John Jacques Machado. So I was training every day. So I knew Jiu-Jitsu, and so I had to explain it like I was sitting next to my girlfriend. Like, okay, what he's going to do now?

He's going to throw his right leg over the side of his neck, and he's going to trap that arm. Okay, now he's fucked. Now he's in trouble. Now he's going to hook that leg under his ankle. He's got the triangle. He's got the triangle. And I had to get people excited about it.

Like, I was excited about it, but also kind of talk them through it because they didn't know what was happening. You had to explain, like, why are his legs wrapped around that guy's neck? This looks gay. Like, what the hell is going on? You know, like, what is this? And you realize, no, he's cutting off the blood to his brain with his legs. And they're like, whoa, that's nuts.

You're like, right? That's what Mel Gibson did to Gary Busy and Lethal Weapon. They're like, that's crazy. It works. Like, yeah, that's a real technique. He learned from Hory and Gracie. And so the early days was a lot of it for me was about kind of explaining to me to people that are at home what was happening and talking them through it. Like that was the main part of my job once the fight got to the ground.

Now everybody understands. Now everybody knows what a chokehold is. Everybody knows what a arm bar is. Everybody knows. So now it's just about explaining whether or not he's in danger. or he's free, where the elbow is, where the knee is. And it's just kind of letting people know whether or not he's okay or not,

but they know what's going on now. Even though they know what's going on the ground, they still want to see him get up. You hear the crowd, get up, you know. There's nothing like a knockout. And there's nothing like a head kick knockout. Head kick knockout is the ultimate. When someone lands a head kick knockout,

like Leon Edwards versus Kamaro Usman, he's losing the fight, fifth round. Boom! Headkick. You see Kamaro go out. They're like, bah, the crowd in Salt Lake City goes nuts. That is the ultimate expression of martial arts is the kick, right? And a head kick that scores a knockout. Like, that's a Bruce Lee movie, you know?

Yeah, true. That's what everybody wants to see. They want to see it in real life against a trained, skilled opponent. I get that. That's the car crash. Yeah, that's the car. It's the skillful car crash. Exactly.

Yeah. All over the skillful, but the more they know about, the more they understand the skill it takes to get there. So you shed the light on it. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Once people, like you said, understood the damage that's going on and the need to know the technique and that art form makes you the winner.

At the end of the day, who's getting their hand raised? Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. And then you got those that can do both. They'll dazzle you with a spinning back kick to the chin, or they'll take you and put you in a rear naked choke. You know what I mean?

Those are the top guys today. So that's the other part of the game. But, you know, when you start talking about back in the era that you understand and we understand, it was the Boodle heart. That was the transition. It was the spirit of. It was the yes and say. You know, I mean, it was that tradition that really brought more mystique to the martial arts, more tradition in a way that people honored. You know what I mean?

So it was kind of like you start seeing the different transitions that came. See what I'm saying? And, you know, it's just like you hear people, it's like a guy's out. He hits the ground, boom. The referee don't get there in time, but he takes another whack or two. You know, I mean, so then that's the part. At least I'm like, wow, man, you want to make sure that he don't get up. But at the end of the day, those couple of extra shots can create the damage.

More damage. Absolutely. More damage. You see what I'm saying, Joe? Yeah. So at the end of the day, I mean, hey, it's vicious. You've got to be conditioned. I mean, you've got to put into work without a doubt.

You know what I mean? Because exhaustion has made cowards many. Yes. You know? So, yeah, I mean, so that whole Budo heart, the tradition, that atmosphere, that spirit, little by little started dissipating. And then the new era starts coming in.

I believe the injuries that in, you know, the ground in pound or whatever, but the injury, even standing up, you know, getting knocked out standing and hitting the mat, you know, a lot, you know, there are, a lot of promoters are saying, you know, we want to see that. But again, the insurance, I mean, to get the insurance to cover a lot of these fighters is brutal. Yeah, especially small shows, right. That's it.

It's brutal, and you have, it's a lot of ground and power, a lot of, uh, you, uh, jarring of the mind and the body eventually is going to give out, you know. And so some of them don't last two, three years. And they're great at what they do, but, you know, by the time they finish, it's hard for them to make a living. Right. Especially if they're married and so forth. I mean, you've got to continue on life.

So they try to make it safe enough, but at the same time when it comes down to the art of war. It's mental warfare, it's physical warfare, it's even spiritual warfare, the energies, man, that are coming at you. So educating the public to what it really takes and what it is that we're doing in the ring, in the cage. What is exactly, okay, it's entertainment, but there's a skill. There's a skill that we're using to be able to go in there and stop an opponent without getting hit. Yeah, it really is a test of your spirit because it's a test. of your spirit just to be able to discipline yourself to get a condition and train properly.

It's a test of your spirit to be able to fight at the level of your actual abilities under pressure. And when I describe martial arts competition, I say it's high level problem solving with dire physical consequences. Very well put. That's what it is. It's just like that's what you're going against a skilled guy who's trying to do something to you and he's moving and you're trying to do something to him and any mistake, boom! And then the referee's got a light in your face, and the next thing you know, you're like, oh, my God, you don't know what happened. I mean, you have two type of fighters.

You have a checker player who take two hits to give one that don't care, and then you have a chess player that don't like to take any and give the four, five, and six. They're doing combinations. Exactly. They're the ones that are doing combinations. Well, that's why it's important where you train, you know, and the gym that you guys that set up the jet center was legendary for developing champions and legendary for teaching proper technique and showing you the consequences of the moves and also teaching people that you don't have to

spar to try to kill each other all the time you know you could spar like some of the best sparring I ever got was at the jet center because the place when I was after I've been done fighting when I lived in Boston when we trained it was war every time you sparred you were just fighting there was no one pulled any punches no one pulled any kicks everybody's blasting everybody full black. It was terrifying. And you saw a lot of guys get knocked out in the gym and then they'd be back a couple days later. And that's crazy. That's crazy. We know that now. Back then, we didn't even think about it. Everybody just came back. You just came back. You start training again. You had a headache. And he just dealt with it. Nobody actually understood a concussion.

Right. Hey? All right. Shake it off. You know, it'll be okay. You know, sit down for a while, have some water. Okay, back in. Right. And so you went back in with a concussion. not even knowing that you had a concussion. Right. Other than I had a headache or I was a little dizzy, but I'm okay again. Let me get back in because, hey, you didn't want to feel like, hey, I can't hang. You didn't want to feel like a bitch. That's right.

And so you get back in there with this. And so that's what's going on with a lot of these fighters. You know, before they go, I mean, they're training for their fight and they get a concussion. And then next week they're going into their fight with a concussion, not even knowing. They had a concussion. It happens all the time. Yeah. I know one guy who got knocked out twice in camp.

And then, like, one of them was less than two weeks before his fight. And then he got touched on the chin and his fight just went out cold. Because he was already fucked up. That's right. He came into the fight, like, severely compromised. It's like going into battle with a hole in your armor. He was already messed up. And, you know, there's like, there's a time in place for hard sparring.

Because I think you have to have some hard sparring to understand that, that, hey, you can't just block something like that. You're going to get your arm fucked up. You can't just have you... You're going to have to deal with the fact that hard shots are coming away, so sometimes you're going to have to spar hard. But technique sparring is so important, too. One of the reasons why the ties are so successful is they play spar.

Like, they fight every week, so there's no reason to get banged up. So when you watch Thai fighters, when they spar over there, they're like, oi! They touch each other. They just touch each other. They're not trying to hurt each other. Because, like, once a week, they have to go fight hard. Yes.

So they don't fight hard when they're training. It's like their fighting is like their one hard sparring day. Yes. Because some of them literally are fighting once a week. You get these guys that are 22 years old, they have 200 fights. Yeah. Which is crazy. Crazy.

But, you know, again, if you're fighting for lifestyle as eating for your family, so forth, when you go in there, they're fighting. Right. There's no sparring session. It's a fight. And that's why they bring home food to their families. So when they go out there, I mean, they're fighting at five years old. They're already trained.

Three years old, they're already training. You know, by the time they're 10 years old, they have so much experience of the fight. And some of them are done by the time. And they're 22, 24, you know, they're done. They already had 300 fights by that, which is crazy. It is crazy. Yeah, and a lot of it over there is motivated by gambling. That's right.

So when people watch tie fights, they go, why they take the first round so light? Well, it's because that's when everybody gambles. And they can switch rounds. Yeah. Switch opponents. Oh, do they sometimes? That's what I understood. They switch opponents in between rounds?

No, no, opponents. My God. Who they're betting on. Oh. Right, right, right, switch opponents that they're going to bet on. Yeah, they do that all the time. I mean, there's so much gambling going on. When you go to a Muay Thai fight in Thailand, in the beginning of the fight,

you see everybody waving money around and pointing to people, and everybody's, like, setting bets. So the first round, those fighters are just kind of like setting the pace and just experiencing each other's timing. And then the second round comes in, all the bets are in. They start ramping it up. And then they start really fighting, which is alien to a lot of foreigners. they go over there and they try to go wild in the first round like,

you're going to let the bets get in. And they're like, what? What are you talking about? No, no, no. It's an agreement, a silent agreement. When you go out for that first round, for that first round, you're just feeling each other out. That guy's not going to try to knock you out.

He's just trying to feel you out. He's going to try to land some shots, a couple hard leg kicks, maybe a teep. But really, he's just waiting for that second round to open up. Exactly. And that's, again, it's a way. of life to them. And, you know, a lot of them, their parents are selling their kids when they're very young

because they can't afford. And they're in camps. And the kids take on the name of the gym. And that's all. They're upstairs. They walk, talk, and sleep, and dream it in that gym. They don't go outside. Yeah.

Every day, that's all they do. They're trained for fighting. And, I mean, I've been to a couple of them, and that's it. They don't see nothing else. They just train. and go upstairs they do it and the next day they do repeating and then they go to

the fights. It is crazy because the money from the gambling is what led the sport to be so huge and the sport becoming so huge over there is what led them to be so good and that all that money and gambling led it to be one of the most fierce fighting styles on earth

because while the rest of the world hadn't figured out the knees and the elbows and the clench and the leg kicks the ties have been doing it forever They had already been doing it for a long time. It took a long time for the rest of the world to catch up to what Thailand had figured out just from allowing people to fight for money. I mean, you're talking about in 75 just understanding the word moitai.

Right. Thinking it was a guy. Yeah. Say, what the heck is that? That is such a crazy story. And then, of course, the leg checks, counters, and we start, we start. of getting the idea, okay, okay, this is how you fight them. And then you have other styles for American bread fighters

that didn't have part of that game in their repertoire of Arsenal, you know what I'm saying? Right, right. So I think that's what the other thing that the PKK did. It didn't give anybody from the PKK a chance to learn, you know, internationally what was going on in the world. Not to put them down because, you know what, that was all part of us moving forward.

back in the day learning. But, you know, when you come up through Shoto Khan, you're going to know how to sweep and you're going to know how to front kick. You know what I mean? And so that was on the traditional side of the art. But yeah. It's unfortunate.

It's unfortunate because, you know, even Dana White when I talked to him about it, I was like, ah, people don't care about kickboxing. I'm like, it's just because it was sold badly in the 80s. That's really all it is. Like, if it was around today, I genuinely believe it would, if kickboxing had gotten the same sort of promotional push that the UFC got,

like way back in 2001, I think it would be just as big as boxing, just as big as MMA. I think it would be huge right now. I'm going to agree with you because there are a lot of excellent stand-up fighters that are really colorful and use all the weapons. They can use elbows, knees, feet, jumping. I mean, things that no, everybody,

a friend, I don't do that. They didn't want me to throw spinning back kicks. It doesn't work. I said, really? And I've been showing them for every time they said, I made them eat the words because, again, the art, if you

do it right, it looks fancy. It doesn't work if you're not good at it. No, of course that. Yeah, like everything doesn't work if you're not good at it. You try to punch Floyd Mayweather. You're not going to hit him. It doesn't mean punches don't work. It just means you're not good enough at it. That's

you know what I mean? It's like it's interesting that people don't see that. Even coaches don't see that sometimes. You know, Terrence Crawford learned how to switch hit, you know, because Terence Crawford is one of the best switch dance fighters ever since Marvin Hagler.

And one of the reasons why he did is because his coach told him he can't do that. His coach is like, don't do that. Stay orthodox. Stop messing around. He's like, what? He's like, I can fight this way. too. He's like, no, no, no, you can't. He's like, oh, okay, I'll show you. And he would go out start fight Southpaw and then start fucking people up and switch hands on them. And they're like, oh, no, because it's an amazing skill to have. But it's only amazing if you develop your

Southpaw style as good as your Orthodox style. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. It means it has to be at that leg. If you want to land a spinning back kick, it doesn't mean you can't lend a spinning back kick. It should mean your spinning back kick's not good enough to land. That's right. But Benny Arkitas can land that spinning back kick. I mean, I'm softball. I'm a lefty.

But I fought left forward because my brother said, don't let them know you're lefty. So he trained all of us. Even my sister was lefty. And we all trained left forward. But when we struck, you couldn't tell that we were a softball. So we started left-handed and working this. But that was his logic.

It was also the benefit of that. you had a lethal left-hand kick. So your left-side kick, that front kick, the side kick from the left side and the front round kick from the left-side was fast as fuck because you were a naturally left-sided fighter. That's right. Yeah.

That's right. You know, I think that it's just each decade as we go, you know, as Blinky was talking about the Bertrudeau way, you know, there was a, you know, you had honor, there was an honor system and all that. And then in the 70s, it started to change when full contact karate came in. It started to change. And then kickboxing in 75 and on, people were, you know, we're not martial artists, we're kickboxers.

Then, Moitai came. Oh, we're boytai. We're not kickboxers. And every then, we're UCI fighters. We're not Muay fighters. I said, you know, so every decade, it changed. But again, you needed to learn from ground one. And the ground one was internal.

The I am concept of what do you tell yourself with that, you know, and there was an honor system going on, and there was a code of honor between warriors. Right. And that got lost. That's right. There was power in that. There was power in that code of honor of strength, of annoying.

And they said, well, how do you know? I say, I just know. But they said, how do you know? I said, I can't answer you that other than the fact that. you that other than the fact that I just know. The tenets of a warrior code that you would learn in traditional martial arts were very important.

That's why everybody would bow at the beginning of the class and everybody would key eye at the same time. There was a there was a rigid structure to it and they would not let anyone trash talk. There was no yelling and swearing. There was no none of that. You don't even wipe

the sweat off your head. Right. It was bowing and you know it was at the beginning of the fight. Everybody, like, bowed to each other, went back to the corner. There was no trash talk. There was no none of that. It was your words would be spoken with your weapons. That's it.

I wanted to just add, you know, Benny mentioned his sister. Well, I was, where it were cousins, I was married to Lily. Lily was my wife. And she passed away. But she was a trailblazer for women. Absolutely. Boxing and kid boxing. Absolutely.

One titles in both. He fought Madison Square Guard in 1978, you know, also. And just paying homage, you know, because she also pioneered and was taking the forefront, you know, fighting at the Olympic, fighting at the forum, fought in Japan, traveled the world and fought, and represented well, and trained hard, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah. Because actually at the fights, my sister, Lily, she actually fought first. Blinky will fight and then I would be the last to fight.

So all three of us, when we traveled the world, introducing kickboxing, my sister. Blinky and myself. We all fight at the same card. So the night Bobby Chacon, if you remember that name. Bobby Chacon, sure. Okay, Bobby Chacon and Alexis Argueo. Oh, yeah.

We fought on their card. Both of us, first husband and wife to fight on a boxing card like that. Wow. Under that right there. Wow.

Yeah. And I grew up with Bobby. We grew up with Bobby. He came out of the San Fernando Valley. Sure. He featherweight. Yeah. Yeah, his whole style.

Yeah, his whole style. I was his sparring partner for a while. He started busting up my nose and giving me black eyes. I said, one time he hit me was such a beautiful right hand. My leg came up automatically and he started taking his glove off. You know, I'm not sparring with you, no one. I said, it was a reflex. I'm sorry.

I didn't need to bring the leg up. You said he started taking his glove. I don't want to spar with you no more. Did you hit him with the leg or just pick it up? No, I picked it up. he hit me with a nice right and automatically my right leg came up to and by then he just

he told Joe Ponce I'm not spying with him no more after it but the craziest thing about all this is you guys were trailblazers there was very little money in it oh yeah are you kidding me very little money we paid for our own way just to get there to fight we paid them to fight

really no no we didn't I mean when I say we did We paid for our own gas just to go out there and actually fight. So it was very little money. Yeah, there was no money and glory and big houses and cars and the things that fighters look forward today. Just hard. Yeah.

Just the love of the sport, building it. Well, I don't think you guys get enough credit, and it's one of the reasons why I really wanted to have you on to talk about it because I think the sport needs to recognize the pioneers that blaze the trail. And you two are one of the most important pioneers that blazed the trail in martial arts in this country. And you did it back when no one knew what was going on. People need to understand. When did you guys first start fighting?

When did you have your first kickboxing competitions? Actually, it was in 73. It was called Full Contact Karate. And we already was fighting in 64 martial arts. And that was, you know, bare knuckles hitting the ground. We were already sparring in there. And then... No one knew about it back then.

No. We have to realize, like, the Bruce Lee movies, when did they start coming out into America? Like, when was into the drag? Early, seven. Right. So this was almost ten years before that. Yeah.

Crazy. Yeah. Like, real pioneers, man. No one knew about it. You had heard about judo. People knew about judo. Maybe some people had heard about karate, but it wasn't that popular in America.

The first thing was actually popular was boxing. Right. Of course. And after the boxing. Boxing has always been popular. And then other than all the other sport, but boxing was when it came to the art of war. And then it was judo.

I started actually judo in 60. And then 63, we started Kempel karate. Is that where you met Gene LaBelle? Yes, exactly. And I'll tell you what, talking about the master of disaster. Oh, yeah, he was awesome. He was awesome. He was awesome.

He was awesome. He was awesome. I got a chance to meet him because one of the guys that I first trained jujitsu under, I took private lessons from this guy, Silvio Pimento. Oh, yes. You know, Sylvia? I do. He's a great guy.

Shout out to Sylvia. And he was a Gene LaBelle student. So he had a bunch of nasty tricks that he had learned from Gene LaBelle along with his jujitsu stuff. So he showed me a lot of, like, different chokes and different things and different variations that Gene had developed. Right. And I was like, man.

And then I finally got to meet Gene. What a character that guy was. He is such a character. Gene was one of those type of warrior. your sense is just saying, if you want to train with me, don't be afraid to get choked out.

And before you can actually train with him, he choked you out. He choked you out, and he would go and get lipstick and put it around your eyes. And then when he wake you up, you had all of this. That was Sensei Jean.

It was, and I told Sensei Jin, I said, get it over with. She choked me out, get it over it. Because I knew that I knew automatically like he was being easy. I said, just do it. I said, I'm not afraid.

Just do it. And took me, before or not, I was out, and I was back up again. I didn't even know I was out. And he said, you took it like a, you know, like a charm, man, you know. What's true? I said. I said, you know, since I'm not afraid to die, what can you possibly do to me? He said, really?

And I said, yeah. And then he grabbed my big toe and put me in pain all the way up to my forehead, all the way back down to the other big toe. And I said, I'll never say that one again. Your big toe. He had a big toe submission. Yeah, he grabbed my big toe at the edge of it, and he put his nail in it. And, oh, my God, my eyes were bulging.

Gene told me a story about when he was old. I think he was in his 70s. Some kids were breaking into his car, and he went outside. Did you hear this story? Yes. There's two guys that were talking about. Get the fuck out of here, old man. He's like, oh, really?

He grabs this dude. Fucking hip throws him out of the croncary. Boom! grabs the other dude, chokes him unconscious. He fucked up two dudes when he was 70 years old. Yeah. In front of his house. It's like...

Matter of fact, I did a couple of movies with him. His mother was Aline Eaton. She owned the Olympic Auditorium Oh wow I mean the Olympic Auditorium Was the spot Way back then man You had some big time fights

Big time fights Gene LaBelle And always He was always humble And you know what I mean And he wore his humility Very well Yeah he was very self-deprecating

And joking about himself And being silly But man You shook that guy's hand You're like This is a fucking gorilla It's Gene There he is

Such a great guy. Yes, he is. Actually. And he had one of the first mixed rules fights when he fought Milo Savage. That's right. That even predated the karate fights or the mixed martial arts fights that you guys had in Hawaii. That's right. He fought Milo Savage, who was a boxer, and he wore a ghee.

And the ghee was so smart because Milo, you know, got tangled up in the ghee, and Gene grabbed him and strangled him. You know, matter of fact, it was Muhammad Ali at the time. we went to fight in Japan and he was the main event I was a semi event was that when he was fighting anoki Yeah he stood on the ground I went

And I knocked up my opponent quickly because I wanted to see the fight So I stopped my opponent Who did you fight? Do you remember? I can't even think of his name See if you could find the undercard Benny's fight on the undercard Because that fight with Inoki was crazy

I don't know how they talked Muhammad Ali into fighting him You know, it was a five-rounder, and there was not supposed to be no decision. It was five-rounder and so forth, and they both got paid great money. But I was telling, in the dressing room, I was telling Muhammad Ali, he's going to go for your legs. And he starts saying, I'm so fast. I said, I said, Muhammad, he's going to go for your legs. And I said, sure enough.

after I fought. I didn't even want to go to the dressroom. I just wanted to stay there when they came out. And sure not, the first thing Tony did, jumped, went to the ground, and did a flying round kick to his thighs.

Yeah. After the second round, Tony Onoki went out there and started going to his ground. And Muhammad Ali jumped on the corner of the ring and was kicking him on the ground as he was holding onto the ring.

at the time it was funny if you see it but after the five round I tell you Muhammad they had to carry him yeah his legs were fucked up oh my God yeah they were really badly damaged

and for a guy who relies on his legs as much as Ali did that's a crazy fight to take because if he got side kicked and hyper-extended his knee and it was never the same it would compromise his movement that was float like a butterfly

that was a big part of his style That's true. And I just can't imagine how anybody allowed him to take that fight. Like if I was his manager, I'd be like, there's no way you're taking this fight. This guy's going to ruin your legs. You know, first of all, it was always about, whether it was about the money or not, but it was about, you know, doing something different. Right.

And Tonya Nolki, being, you know, Muhammad Ali here in the United States, you know, Tonya Novi was the man in Japan. He was the man in Japan. Pro wrestling. Yeah. And so that's why they went and it was packed the place. Did you find a video? Is it available online at all?

I was looking for the... I mean, I can only find stuff about the event was called The War of the Worlds and they also showed it on TV on the screen. Wow. Andre the giant fell out of New York. He fought Chuck Wepner? Wow. Wow.

that's crazy so that was in new york yeah that was like it's a tv event it says like 10 rounds direct from new york and this is 15 rounds direct from tokyo oh oh wow so they even a co-feature will appear local to your area oh wow but there's no video available oh look i'm still like i was looking right um just their fight that was that was a great fight though yeah their fight was crazy Their fight was crazy When you look at Anoki kicking him You're like this is just nuts He jumped right to the ground

He was a big guy Oh yeah Anoki was a big guy But you know what He wasn't full Japanese He was Have Japanese have something else But he was tall and he had a square jaw

And his thighs Yeah he was a big dude Oh yeah without a doubt Is this the promotion for the fight Not the actual fight itself I don't know. Oh, there it goes. Oh, it's not showing you the actual fight,

but there was a lot of that. Oh, yeah. I wonder what they paid Ali to do that. Yeah. Because, like, that seems like a crazy decision to make. Here it is. They took him right to the hospital. Look at that.

Drops down and kicks the legs. This is it. Ali was on the ropes, lifting his legs up. I'm on the corner. I wonder if you could see me there, but yeah. But it's just getting your legs kicked like that. that if you don't know what the hell's going on. No. Like, that's going to destroy your legs.

Oh, yeah. I mean, right after that, went right to the hospital. They had a drain. They had a drain. I mean, his legs were full of fluid. They had to drain it out. Oh, man. Yeah. I heard he got infected, too. Didn't he get infected in the hospital and he was there for quite a while? Yeah. That's terrible, man. That is so terrible. Mm-hmm. It's just, I just don't understand why anybody. So this is 1976. Yeah. That was the undercard there. Was Ali the champ back then? I think so.

I think so. Wow. Just nuts, man. Yep. He was WBC, WBA, heavyweight boxing champion. Wow. I trained with Tony Onoki.

Yeah? Yeah. What was that like? I'll tell you. The way they trained there, they had these, I mean, working, I mean, they didn't use weights,

but the strength, his grip was like a vice grip. And they used a stuff? Deal clubs. Yeah, the steel clubs. But all that was just natural movement. So I even tried to have smaller ones for me. But I trained with him for a week.

And I'll tell you what, it was every day I got up. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health. From the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your. health today and may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer the healthier you means more moments to cherish take control of your well-being and book an assessment today med can live well for life visit medcan.com slash moments to get started man because those those muscles i've never used before right

oh my god well a lot of those guys learn strength and conditioning from carl gotch yes and carl gotch was a legendary catch wrestler and Carl Gach went over to Japan and trained a lot of those guys, like Sakoraba, a lot of those guys who eventually became big-time mixed martial arts fighters, they started with catch wrestling. And Carl Gatch was one of the beginning guys that came over to Japan and taught a lot of those Japanese pro wrestlers, a lot of the different submission holds of catch wrestling. And his big thing was conditioning. Carl Gatch's legendary strength and conditioning guy, like his routine was absolutely brutal. In order to be able to train with him, you had, before you could train with him, he had to know that you were in physical condition.

So you had to go through this program to get yourself up to, I forget what the requirement was. But it was some insane requirement of physical conditioning before he would even teach you anything. Like you had to be in shape. Like you got to have a gas tank. You got to be strong. You got to be agile. And you got to be able to move well. You know, my mother, my mother wrestled at the Olympic Auditorium.

Really? Really? With actually, Sense A.G. On the same card. And then my, actually, I fought. I fought that at the Olympic, you know. And so, and then my sister, Lily, she did roller derby at the Olympics. Oh, wow.

She used to do a roller derby. Yeah. Man, that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Roller derby is tough, man. I've watched some of that. Yeah.

I went to see an event of that live. like those girls get slammed. Oh, yeah. Oh, so a little quick vignette. Lily was in a fight on a Bobby Chacon card at the Olympic Auditorium. So they did an article on Bobby, and in the article they mentioned Lily that she's had over 50 street fights.

And when she read that, she was like, why would he say that? Because he was pulling for her, you know what I'm saying? Just crazy stuff like that. But, yeah, she went in there and she was throwing them down. And then out of the ring, you'd never guess it by looking at her. Never guess it.

Never guess it. Well, that was interesting because there was no real female boxing presence in this country back then. That's right. Really didn't exist. Like before Lily, like who? There wasn't. There was no one. Lily's the one that actually a bunch of girls got together.

And Lily's the one that actually started boxing because they were saying, women can't box She was knocking people out She was knocking men out at the gyms And that's when they decided Well let's see what's going to happen Sure enough, she went out there And she was the first woman to have a boxing title

A martial art title and a kickboxing title That's amazing She was the first one that's amazing And then there was Lucia Riker In the 90s She was fantastic She couldn't get any fights Women didn't want to fight her.

She was knocking people out dead. And she was a kickboxing champion as well. That's right. Started out Dutch kickboxing champion and then went into boxing and could never get that fight with Christy Martin. Christy Martin was the big name. Right. And she could never get a fight with her. Yeah.

It's like Christy Martin was the first one in America that really broke through and became a famous female boxer. Yeah. But before her and then there was, of course, Leila Ali. And there's been a few other ones, Clarissa Shields right now, who's the greatest one. women of all time. And it's like there's, you know, it's those people, they owe it to Lily in a lot of ways. And just like martial arts fighters owe it to you guys. If someone didn't step in in the very early days and blaze that trail, no one's going to find out what's on the other side of the woods.

Hey, Joe, but after you're saying that, you know, Sensee Ben's going to be inducted this coming Saturday. Really? At the martial arts museum. So it's going to be, it's going to be inducted to the Mussela Museum. That's awesome. That's awesome. Actually, we have the first three-finger glove. This was the 73, the first three-finger glove of striking and grabbing.

Yeah. So there's a lot of stuff that. Like in Game of Death, those Bruce Lee gloves. That's right. That needs to be redone. You know, one of the big problems with MMA today is eye poke. it's a giant problem. And I think it could be at least 80% solved

by covering up the fingertips. We don't need the fingertips for grappling. You never grapple like this. You never interlace your fingers. That's right. So if you could just cover it up like an old school Everlast bag glove, just do that.

Because you could still grapple, no problem. It's like if you've got padding over the knuckles, just extend the leather over the tips of the fingers, make it like a mitten, put it under the hand like this. So your hand will slide into it the same way. Your thumbs will still be free, So you still have, unfortunately, you'll still have some pokes from the thumbs, but way less when you don't have eight other things to poke with.

That's right. I think that can be done, and I don't think that takes away from the MMA sport at all. No, because, again, you know, a lot of them, some, they're striking and they're striking with their fingers open. Yeah. And, I mean, some of them, I mean, I had this one guy that had his finger stuck so deep that they actually had. I mean, that's how deep his finger when he jabbed with his finger open. Well, that happened recently with Tom Aspinall. Yes.

With his heavyweight title, he was fighting Cyril Gahn, and Cyril Gond poked him in the eye a couple times. But one time, with both fingers, in both eyes, he poked him. And his right eyes fucked up. He's already had one surgery. He's going to have a second surgery soon, apparently. How many detached retinas, you know, over the course of time. Oh, a countless number.

I mean, you're going to have some detached retinas from fighting, period. There's no way to avoid it. You're getting punched and kicked and elbowed in the eye. It's going to happen. The MMA. Yes. But it's going to be less of it. I mean, look, Shigray Leonard had a detached retina.

That's right. And that was just from boxing gloves. You're going to have some detached retinas. But I think you'd have a lot less eye injuries if you covered those damn fingertips. And it's just, we've gotten used to these MMA gloves that they have today. It doesn't mean that this is the only way to do it. They need to figure out another way. Got to take care of the fighters.

100%. And all. They also make the sport better because if fights don't get stopped from eye pokes, it's more exciting. It's better. You don't want to fight stop from an eye poke. So the fights will go on. There'll be better fights. It's a better product.

The same thing back then. They were fighting with eight-ounce gloves, but there were horsehair in it. And a lot of them were putting their glove in the spit bucket. So making the horsehair wet. So it would get real solid and you start to... Guys would cut a hole in it and take their squeezy bottle, their water bottle, take the straw part. and stick it in there and squirt water into the horsehair and pat it down. That's right.

You know. That's what we thought. That's what we started to play. We remember Margarito. He got caught. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He got caught using plaster of Paris inside of his, or whatever it was.

Something that when it got wet would harden up like a rock inside of his hand wraps. Like hitting them with a brick. Yeah. Yeah. That's why the ref, I mean, they would come and check your wraps. They were marked to make sure before the glove goes. on because they were doing a lot of crazy things. A lot of dirty shit.

Oh, yeah. Well, Margarito got away with it long after people had already been checking things, too, which is really crazy. Yeah. But, you know, you're always going to have cheaters. That's just how the sport is. I mean, you know, it's, again, when you call it a sport, there's got to be the Bushita way of honor system and respect and so forth.

when you're talking about a sport. Right. But when it becomes away from a sport, then it becomes a money thing. You get away from that prosciutto way of really a code of honor between warriors. Right. You know, back then, even the samurai.

They're signed to the debt, but there's a code of honor, and they knew what they were there for. Just like you know what you're going in there for. But now there's rules, and either you go by the rules so don't do it. Yeah, I mean, I think if people had a martial arts code of honor,

it would be just as exciting and maybe more interesting. So in agreement. And you would also develop a lot better human beings. Yes. Because instead of a bunch of kids imitating people talking trash, what you would have is a bunch of kids that imitate very respectful martial arts people. Very respectful, true martial artists. Very well put.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's there for self-defense. It's not to be, you know, aggressive. And self-improvement. Yes. That's the other thing. It's like my instructor had a saying that martial arts was a vehicle for developing your human potential.

And I never forgot that. I was like, if you could get great at martial arts, you could get great in anything, at anything. Yeah. It's really just a matter of like taking that knowledge that you learned about yourself and going through the fire and learning how to be a great martial artist. and you could apply that to anything. It's supposed to be a way of life. Yeah. It's supposed to teach you, you know, about honor and dignity and respect and so forth.

That's basically what it was all about. Yeah, that's what it's supposed to be about. Yeah, and even though it's about defending, self-defense is defending, instead of, you know, being a striker, is learning how to defend it, sleeping and moving and defending, but it got turned around. and it became striking, you know, instead of learning how to, because I would put my money on a good defensive fighter than a striker because it's easy to go out there and strike,

but if you don't know how to defend striking back at you... Right. Well, one of the most humiliating things for a fighter is they think they're a good striker, and then they get in there with someone who has impeccable defense, and they can't hit them at all, and then they get confused. They get countered. Yeah, they get countered. They get confused.

And, you know, it's also what caliber of fighter are you training with, which is probably one of the most important things for young fighters to understand. You will imitate the atmosphere of your gym, period. And the level that is the top guy at your gym, that is the level that everybody aspires to. If you are training with a bunch of champions, you're training with a bunch of high-level guys, you will aspire to be at that high level. If you are the toughest guy in your gym, if you're the best guy in your gym, if you're the best guy in your gym and you're not a world champion

you're not the best than what you're just pretty good like you're not going to grow in that gym you got to get out of that gym you got to get out of that gym you got to go find people that are going to test you and put you in danger and put you in a position where you're going to have to learn and grow and that's the only way and that was that was the advantage of training at the jet center

we have people coming from all over the world all over the country you had nothing but people that that you had to aspire for you had to reach for the stars you know what I mean make it happen and with condition being the name of the game, you know what I mean? So, you know, and from time to time, there was wars in the gym. You know what I mean?

But there's other times where there was, you know, we're going to learn today. You're not just going to start swinging from left to right. Well, it was the mecca of kickboxing. And like I said, like when I was living in Boston and when I was kickboxing in Boston, people would talk about the jet center with like hush tones. Like, you've got to get to the jet center. Because I was telling people, I was moving to L.A. They're like, oh, you're going to move to L.A.

you got to go to the jet center. And I knew about it. I was like, one of the first things I did. Like, one of the first things I did. I showed up for work. I did all the things that I had to do. I was working on this TV show. Then I went to Van Nuys.

I was like, I got to go sign up. Come on. That's beautiful. Hey, Joe, so you mentioned that, and you know, because you could sling them pretty good yourself. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. And you leaned over and ripped the body shot to that one guy you were sparring with.

he went down on one knee. And if I'm not mistaken, you mentioned, man, I thought, holy crap, I'm going to get shot in the parking lot. Yeah. And then he walks up to you and he taps your glove and he says, good shot. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? I remember that.

I was nervous sparring those dudes. But that was part of why I had them there. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, it's not about violence. and that was giving them that lesson that they needed to learn. Yes. You know what I'm saying? During that time of their life.

And now we've grown it into something now where we've done over 200 sporting events with rivals. Yeah, that's awesome. Tackle football games. No, no bad. Handball. Softball games. People need to learn that the division that we have with each other, where we look at us versus them, it's mostly bullshit.

It's not real. It's like they're just human beings, just like you're a human. being and it's way better for them to be your friend than for them to be your enemy. There's no need to have enemies like that for no reason whatsoever other than tribal gang bullshit. It's not real. It's like and the thing about martial arts is it teaches you the real battle is inside yourself. The real battle is learning and growing and unfortunately with young men like there's this desire to show how hard you are and that you're macho but you don't have any skills. You don't you're not really macho so you have to like pop.

And posture and be louder than everybody else. And martial arts teaches you like, man, your battle is in the gym tomorrow. Like you get back in there tomorrow and get better. And then learn why you got hit and then get better. And learn why you're throwing your left hook wrong or why you're throwing your round kick wrong and train it and work on the bag and putting your time. And you're going to learn and grow. And then you're going to realize like, I've been fighting my own self for this whole time. I've been fighting nonsense.

and I've been making enemies that don't exist. We had a guy that came into the gym, 6'3, 230-pound Mexican-American, which was a rare commodity back in 1980, and he had just done five years on a manslaughter, and he wanted a box. So I started working with him. Not long after I get a phone call,

and it's a parole officer, and he says, hey, I hear you're dealing with Alex. And I said, yeah, I'm dealing with him. with him and he's doing just great. I said, you know, I'm a private entity and I'm going to work with this guy. I don't got to chase him. He's in the gym all the time. And so took him to the diamond belt, he won it. To come to the Golden Glove, he won it. Took him to the state title. He won it. He earns the right to go to the Nationals in Beaumont, Texas. Is this Alex Garcia? Alex Garcia. So I was his trainer-manager at that time. All of them years.

Take him to the world. He earns the right to go to the world box off. the world box off, goes to the World Games, fights who? Tiofilo Stevenson. Oh! Six foot, seven, Cuban. There was a three-time Olympic gold medalist. Alex fights him for the gold on ABCR World Sports. Wow.

And he doesn't win. But he lost the Teofilo Stevenson from Cuba, and he wins the silver medal, and he's the first in the Hispanic community, Mexican America, to win a medal, or to fight in even that category, that weight division. I remember I was just talking to my friend Joey Diaz, who's Cuban, and we were talking about Tiafell-L-Stevenson, that that was the guy that they were trying to get to fight Muhammad Ali when he was in his prime because they were like, you know, Muhammad Ali might be the best world, but he might be the second best. Because this is this cat in Cuba that is a bad man. And Tiafellow Stevenson was a bad man. He was so good. But he was just locked into Cuba and locked into that amateur program and we never got to see him fight professionally.

And back then they wouldn't let them fight pro. Nope. Fidel Castro would not allow that. Nope. And didn't he come out with Muhammad under the cover of Time magazine? Like they were kind of teasing people with that fight? Perhaps. I mean, there was a lot of talk about it.

I remember in the 70s and the 80s, there was a lot of talk about that, about him fighting. You know, and then him eventually defecting and coming over to America, but it never happened. But the thing with Alex, that showed somebody that's gone away and come. back home can make it. If he could win the silver medal for the United States of America and the World Games when we had boycott at the Olympics, that was just part of the proof. And so now when you're getting guys into union jobs, you're getting guys with tattoo removal that's going on.

You know, you're doing advocacy in the courtrooms, and you're just being able to roll out, there's education going on, and there's a response to yellow, you're, you know, tape, the CVI, the community violence intervention programs that are now nationwide. They become a movement. When you say tattoo removal, you talk about gang tattoos. Yeah, tattoos, but yeah, mostly, you know, just things of people's past that holds them back. Right, right, right. Yeah, so now, you know, there's another thing that's going on with tattoos, you know,

where it's no laser removal. There's some new technology and stuff that I'm talking to people about. that you don't have to go through getting laser and ow and ooh and you can hear that laser going off. So what's it about? It's about meeting the needs of people. It's about touching lives. You know what I mean?

It's about showing them another way and having the ability to open up a door that they can get through. A path. A path, absolutely. That's the thing about a lot of people. They don't know how to make the first step. They've made some mistakes in their life.

Their life is kind of a mess. they don't know the first step. The beautiful thing about a fighting journey in a gym is it allows you, a martial arts dojo, allows you a path. You go in there, you start, there's some rules. I'll see you tomorrow. Like, okay, I'll see you tomorrow.

And then you're in there tomorrow. And then you start getting a little better. And then you learn growth. And you understand, like, if I work towards something, I could build towards something. And now I'm seeing progress, you know. And now I've got a brown belt. You know, now I've got a black belt.

Now I can tell people I'm a black belt. Like I did something. I accomplish something. And I think that's one of the great things about belt systems in traditional martial arts. It gives you a sense that there's a right of passage. Like you've made, you've gone through this thing, and now you've moved to another level. And now you're supposed to behave like you are at a different level. Now you're a senior student.

Now you know, now you're one of the elite students in the gym. You're held to a different standard. It's very important for people. Well, you know, a lot of times what happens is a lot of them come in with a lot of emotions, anger, fear, frustration. And especially with the Jets Gym, we were able to tap in and put fear to them in a sparring way. It will bring up all that emotion up, and then we had a chance to reprogram that. That was the best part about the gym is to bring up what everybody hides until you're threatened. Right. Once you're threatened, I don't care what you hide under

your bed in your closet will come up and then you get a chance to reprogram the way you're perceiving it, the way you're looking at it, and help them to heal, not pat it or forget it or act like it doesn't. Heal it so it doesn't stop them on their journey. And that's what the Jet Center was all about is being able to bring that up, mirror their truth, help them look at what they're really all about and continue let them go on their journey and that's why the Jets Center was so successful because we had a chance to really mirror their truth

and bring all that that they hide and bring it forward and they felt safe enough they felt protected to actually go there and you get to see them go through that and develop real confidence Yes. Instead of this bravado, this false confidence, you're trying to make people feel like you're confident

and scare them off, you develop silent confidence. We really know how to fight. True. That's true. So that's what makes the art so unique but so needed. And in the art, it gives you a foundation to build on in your life. And no matter what, and we've had all walks, of life that come through the jet center.

All walks, I mean, and the ones that, I mean, we had so many different attorneys coming in. And we used to call them the final attorneys, man. There were six, seven of all, man. They were, you know, in the gym, they were so humble to each other. They love each other. They go outside. They don't know each other. I said, what's wrong with you?

You just finished following with them, working with them? And they said, he's an attorney. I said, and? But it was, it was, it brought character out of them. It brought their hearts. And that they mirro the really truth

on their journey and what they were, where they were going. Also for an attorney to step into that world and be around both these young gang members that are learning a new path

and then professional fighters and like, you know, you're in a different world of discipline and willpower and focus that, will help you in everything you do.

We'll help you as an attorney. We'll help you as a doctor. We'll help you in anything you do. True. And it certainly help you as a human. As a human, just get through life. There's nothing that's going to be harder in life other than the loss of a loved one. Nothing going to be harder than your hardest training session at a real fight gym.

That makes the rest of the world easy because your hardest thing you volunteer to do and you look forward to doing it again. and you do it every day. When you could do, like, I always tell people, martial artists are some of the nicest fucking people you'll ever meet in your life. There's some of the nicest people because they don't have anything to prove. Like, when I introduced my friends to, like, guys,

I'm like, what do you think? Like, I was talking about George St. Pierre yesterday. Yes. I was introducing someone to George St. Pierre. I'm like, what do you think he does? He's like, I don't know. Seems like a nice guy. I'm like, that is one of the baddest motherfuckers

that ever walked the face of the earth. He's a two-division UFC world champion, one of the greatest of all time. They're like, no way. I'm like, yeah, I mean like, he's like, how you doing my friend? Like super nice, super friendly. Like, yeah, he's got nothing to prove. There's nothing to prove.

So he can be a nice person. He can be a nice person and not feel weak. He can be himself. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Joe, so, you know, you may mention right now one of the hardest things to do is lose someone. And so for me, I wanted to share a little bit that in 2023,

I got a phone call that, that was something that I could never anticipate. It was January of 2023, and it was a call that was made, one of my son's call to tell me that he had talked to a friend of ours that does a lot of work with the prisons, has a lot of entrees on big-time boards,

and that he was at one of the prisons, and that an inmate walked up to him and asked him if he knew me. So he said, you know, do you know Blinky? And he said, yeah, he says, why? And the guy says, because I'd like to talk to him. And he said, well, why? He said, because I'm the guy that murdered his son.

And so my son's telling me that our friend wanted to know if I would consider talking to him on the phone. So I had just entered into a season of fasting and praying. Me and my wife now, we're going to celebrate 10 years, Gloria, you know. And I said, I don't know. I was grappling, Joe. I was grappling. I was fighting with it.

And then I heard a gentle voice, and it was, say yes. Say yes. So I called my son back, and I said, tell him, I said yes. But I don't want to talk to them on the phone. I want to see them in person. And so that's exactly what happened. On January the 30th, we drove up to the prison. And we get there.

And first we stop and get something to eat, and then we get to the prison. And the seal is right there waiting. And when we get there, he says, yeah, come on through. And so me and this guy went through. And he says, you know, we don't normally have meetings on Monday, but everything's fine. We're going to be okay.

So they walk us through. We walk through, get out to the back door. And there's the yard. the yard, the barbed wire, everything's right there. We start walking, we're going to a building to the left. Now, I thought I was going to be talking to somebody behind glass, but it turns out that they're asking me, what do I think about this room?

And I'm like, in my mind, why are they asking me? What am I thinking about this room? You know what I mean? Because, you know, that's up to them. But I looked down the hallway and there's a door. I said, what's behind that door? And the seal tells me, he says, that's a chapel. I said, can I see it?

We walk back down the hallway. He opens the door and there's a podium right there and there's about 15 chairs. So I said to him, can we use this room? And he said, yes. So at that point in time, I need to go to the restroom. So we walk out of the building. He takes me to the restroom. when we come back out, my friend, the one that was setting it all up, he's not there.

But there's an inmate. I can hear him saying, hey, Blinky, thank you for the letter to the parole board. I got a date. But I'm in another dimension, Joe. I mean, I'm like somewhere else. So a couple of minutes goes by, and I hear my buddy, and he says, hey, Blinky, this is David. And when I pivoted out, he was right here in front of me. this guy that had killed my son.

And the words that came out of his mouth, Joe, I cannot even, I didn't have a second to try to digest it, but he says to me, can I get a hug? And when he said, can I get a hug? I grabbed them. And I embraced them. And I began to weep. I began to weep.

I began to travail. And he began to weep. And that was a Holy Ghost moment where the Spirit of God was moving. on that whole issue. And we went from there into that chapel. And we spent a little over two hours talking. The CEO that was there and my buddy, they were sitting in the corner of the room.

And as I'm talking to him and we're going over because my wife, before I left the house, he says, remember, he was just a young guy. You know what I mean? He was probably confused back then. So now I'm talking to him. And now we're going over different things that took place.

and I hear that voice, tell him. So I said, okay, I said to him, can I have the privilege of leading you to the Lord? And he said to me, yes. He says, yes, tears start coming out of his eyes. I stepped a few feet over. I put my hand on his right shoulder, over his heart, and I let him.

And he began with a contrite heart. He began to weep and cry. And I came to realize because it took me a long time to unpack that. Once I left there and I came home and into the chair where I always sit to read. And wow, it's like, what just happened? What did I just do? What just took place? And at the end of the day, Joe, it was, I'll leave 99 to go get one.

And that's what I grasped. That one life, that one person. So that's why I've always said since then that the power of forgiveness is more powerful than my left took and I had a good one, Joe. That he did. I just, chink, nice and short, man. But the power of forgiveness, Joe, reconciles.

It gives you a chance, man, to rekindle the fire. It gives you the opportunity, man, to live life without carrying a heavy yoke on your neck. Right. That people carry. It's powerful. I can't articulate to you in words what forgiveness is, but forgiveness is divine, the love that's required, the humility that's required to forgive unconditionally. And that's why I trust in Christ.

That's a beautiful story. It really is. That's a beautiful message. And it's incredibly powerful of you to forgive that man and to be able to recognize that, you know, he made a horrible, horrible decision that it affects. affected your life and everyone around you. Yeah. But he's just a human being. Yeah.

You know, and we're all capable of doing something terrible if we're in the wrong environment, with the wrong people around us, the wrong lifestyle, wrong decisions, you know, but we're all just human beings. And that's why I'm still doing what I'm doing. I had to say farewell to my brother Ben. Because we owned the Jet Center together, 50-50, man.

And it was just that type of calling, Joe, that said, Yeah. Go. And so here I am now 36 years later. Hard, you know, it's still jumping. That's amazing. And it's still working. I went there 32 years ago.

That's when I first started. That's when I made my way to L.A. That's when I first came to your gym and took your classes. Do you still have a gym? You know what? Right now, I'm just doing a lot of traveling. I'm doing my documentary right now and working on the documentary and so forth, and just doing a lot of traveling.

I've seen a lot of videos online. Are you teaching seminars and teaching people? You're still doing a lot of that? A lot of it. Do you enjoy that still? You know what? I've always thought I was a better teacher than a fighter. That's crazy.

You're one of the greatest fighters of all time. The fighting I can do, but the teaching I love. Really? I love being able to get somebody and turn them inside out so they may look at their truth and see that we all have talent and we all have a good. gift. It's just giving a chance to see that. You know, I really take a lot of pride in seeing somebody that I can see that they doubt themselves, they hesitate about, and to go out there and really look at themselves and start to love themselves. There's no better feeling to see

somebody come up from being very meek and weak to something that's so strong and doing something great for society and for That's amazing. Do you ever get any professional mixed martial arts fighters that reach out to you for training? Absolutely. Yeah, who have you trained with? Well, you know what I, right now,

basically what I do is I don't talk about any of them. I just work with them. And everybody asked me, but I said, you know what? I don't care who you are. I care about what you would think that how I can help you with. If it's mental, if it's physical, it's because when it comes down to it, 80% of it is mental, 20% of it is physical.

But 99.9% of that is spiritual, which is internal. This is what I work with, Amman. And so some of the fighters, I, you know, I said, I prefer not to know, you know, who you, you are just other than what you want from me. And from there, I can work with you on that. And so a lot of people want me to go and see their fights, you know, while their cage fighting in MMA and stuff. And there was only one time I went, I believe.

I went one time because in the beginning there were great technicians in that cage, beautiful technicians and it got lost. It got lost somewhere around and then every once in a while you'll find somebody that stands out like a sword thumb and just beautiful technique and you can see they really love what they're doing. Well the young guys coming up today

are some of the most technical I've ever seen. Yeah. It's an amazing time because what we're seeing now is these kids that are in their 20s that the UFC real became popular in 2005 from the ultimate. fighter. So you're seeing kids that were really young when that was happening. And they grew up watching Anderson Silva, John Jones, Vitor Belford. They grew up watching these elite fight, Connor

McGregor, and now they are the newest version of that. And the thing about martial arts is so different is we really didn't have a chance to see mixed martial arts on television at all until 1993. And so you're seeing this there's no sport other than mixed martial arts. Well, you look back at 1993 and look at it in 2026 and it's totally unrecognizable. It's so much different. But MMA, it is. And these kids are so technical. It's like we were talking about today. The kids of

today, they can do everything. They could submit you. They can take you down. They can kickbox with you. They can do it all. They don't have a weak spot in their game. And those are the elite young fighters of today. And we're seeing a lot of those now, a lot of them. The only thing you can't coach his heart. Right. Right. You can't coach art. I mean, you could teach it in a way that can learn it from the pain of not having heart and the shame of not having heart and you decide I'm never going to be that person again. Like some people say like heart is either in you, you either have it or you don't. But man, I don't believe that. I think it's something that can be grown just like everything else,

just like technique, just like everything. Condition does a wonderful job, right? But that's the journey. Yes, the journey. The journey is finding that. That's the journey. You know, the good, bad, and ugly shows up that it may teach you something about yourself.

Yeah. And that's the mirroring of your truth. What is it like for you two men as pioneers, like real true pioneers in the earliest days of martial arts in this country to see where it is today and to know that you started those first steps? you know it's for me to start something but in a way of the Bushudo way

of the code of honor and respect and so forth this is what I felt that we were doing building up a way of life where warriors will fight with dignity and honor and respect and along the line

when actually my last fight was in 95, 94, I got my last fight, and then it started to change because the graces came in, in 90, and 95, it started mixed martial arts all the way up to 2000. And then cage fighting was huge. Man, just everywhere, but I was, I wasn't really, I was following some of it,

but I didn't like some of it. I didn't leave a good taste. And because when I saw some of these guys were on the ground, just pounding this guy on the ground, I thought, wow, was that me in the street? Once upon a time when I was young. And I said, so a lot of it that I didn't want to take their livelihood from them

because I didn't want to hurt them to the point where they couldn't make a living if they were married, if they were, you know. So I always had that in my mind and my heart that to me it was a sport. When somebody hit the ground

I said get back up. I pinned a lot of people, but to hit them on the ground, I just get back up. Yeah, but it's an important part of fighting. That's right. Yeah. That's right. But again, You know, the fight game, again, there's a difference between the fight and the art of sport. Because in the art of sport, I mean, you do a lot of that on concrete and wood, a different ballgame on a mats.

Because there's two different flavors of understanding, one protecting in the street and hitting that kind of ground. And so forth. A lot of times at the internationals, it was concrete. That was in 64, 65, how we fought. on concrete, taking down sweeps, but letting it back up. There was a code of honor. Even though we swept and took them to the ground, you know, and some will reverse punch to the ground

and then lift them back up. But again, I just think that sometimes when you're on the ground and there's somebody's livelihood, you know, you're thrashing. and the idea, okay, I understand what it takes, you know, to hold that hand up as a winner and what it takes of the rules. But I've always got turned around when I see somebody jumping on somebody. Yeah, that's understandable, considering in your day that was frowned upon. Yeah.

But today it's one of the most important parts of the sport. Yeah. But as for me, I'll tell you, you know, you mentioned how it felt to be. a pioneer, a true pioneer at the front end, I feel privileged to be a part of that, to be, I mean, it was such a robust time. It was so exciting. It was rich. There was richness in the air. We were thriving. We were pushing. You know, first it was that trip to Hawaii where we end up in a semi-comedy thing where if you don't knock them out, you're not going to win. Well, by the way, when we got to the airport, Dana Goodson was caddying there.

He was taking the luggage and he's seen us. Hey, you guys double team me. You know what I'm saying? But it was just the atmosphere was rich. It was thriving. It was special. It was a special time. You know what I mean?

And so I didn't want to cheat the game because I knew for a fact that condition was king, being in tip-top shape. Because there's one thing being in shape, but being in tip-top condition, then you almost could radar what someone's going to throw. You could catch it. You could see it. You could feel it, you know. So being on the front end, even though, you know, we got limited recognition,

it wasn't always about the recognition. It was about the art. It was about life. It was about how you treat people. And I'm grateful, Joe. I'm grateful because still today, it's about. people. It's about service. It's about it's about being able to open a door, give an opportunity, and touch a life. In the same way, you know, Benny's talking about, you know,

the emotion and, and, you know, what that allows to happen to an individual's life. Well, we're approaching it in a multi-pronged approach. You see what I'm saying? The basic needs of opportunity that a lot of people don't get a second look. It's just like, Next, next, next, you take the time to talk to them. You know what I mean? And I want to say this. I want to say this. You wear humility so extremely well.

It's real. I mean, I'm just saying, Joe. You know what I mean? That's what I sense. That's what I discern in my spirit. And I've been running the race a long time, Joe. I've been running the race a long time. And there's an anointing.

it breaks the yoke of bondage there's an annoying teen and it flows Joe and if I left here without saying that I would I would be so disappointed in myself but anyways well my humility is honest

I mean I know who I am and I'm just a person like everybody else and the beautiful thing about martial arts is it teaches you that you know it teaches you who you really are not not image and what you're portraying.

What is your real spirit? Like what are you really capable of? What can you really accomplish? You know, and who are you? And you have to learn that. And that's the beautiful thing about hard training and learning and competing. You have to learn who you are.

That's the journey. Yeah, it just doesn't come without loss. It doesn't come without, you know, you have to go through some shit. Yeah. The good bad, ugly shows up. Yeah, all of it. It is a part of who you are.

And when you guys are seeing the sport, the crazy thing about your time was that there was no other motivation other than the journey because there was no money. There was no fame. I mean, you obviously got a lot of notoriety and respect amongst martial artists and amongst people like me. But the general public, you know, if I say you don't know who Blinky Rodriguez and Benny the Jedd are, they're like, what?

Who's that? And martial artists know. People who watch the movies know. People saw Black Belt magazine. They know. But you were doing it in a pure sense. You know, it wasn't just a vehicle to become famous. It was because you were trying to figure out who's the baddest man on earth.

And there was only one way to find out. True. Yeah. Truth speaks for itself. Truth. Truth speaks for itself. So do you have a desire at all to have a gym now? Do you ever think about, like, what it was like when you had the Jet Center?

You know, there's something that I've been drawing in my mind, just like when the jet center, I was drawing on toilet paper. In Japan. Actually, in Japan. And I got toilet. I had an idea. And I started drawing on toilet paper because I didn't have anything else. So I started drawing the jet center.

And I told Blinky, I said, Blinky, this is our gym. What do you think? And he looked at me and he said, I dreamed about that. After I told him on toilet paper, this is going to be our next gym. This is going to be the gym of what we're going to do. And he had a dream about it right before that. Really? The Keog Plaza in Chinchiku.

Yeah. Came downstairs. He was already there to eat. And he says, Blink, one day we're not going to lease or rent no more. we're going to own this gym, and he pulls his paper out, and he says, and he started pointing it out. Chakoozy, steam room, sauna, cold plunge, and you just start going through it, and I'm looking at him,

and I'm smiling. Ben says, hey, you think I'm crazy again? I said, Ben, I drammed that gym last night. I dream it, you know? Wow. And the proof is that it was what we said, is when we walked into that bowling alley at 1-454-0-Friars, street.

Yeah, right? We close a two and a half day escrow on that property with $4,000 down. Wow. And it was that we started a month later with the construction and building of it. You can feel it in the building, man. I remember very clearly the first time I walked in the room. I was like, wow. I was like, I'm really here.

It was crazy. I didn't get too nervous entering the fight gyms. but that gym I got nervous because it's like the legendary history of it. You guys really did something very, very special. I was real sad when the roof got damaged and it went under. I was like, man, this is the end of an era. But to answer your question, I've been doodling again. Oh.

But I'm talking about a gym. There will be a safe haven where people will come to learn their truth. learning defense, self-defense, but learning about themselves, mirroring their own truth, that they will be able to feel safe and to be able to release all that people, or they've been taught

this emotions of anger, fear, and frustration. They get a chance to release it and feel comfortable and feel safe enough to do it that they may go on their journey. This is the next gym that I already started doodling. Wow. Put a toilet paper.

Actual paper this time. Yeah, actual paper this time. Where are you going to plan on doing that? Actually, that's the key. Location. That's the key. Because, again, this one will be different than anybody's ever saying. And it will be a place to come from all over the world to look to mirror their truth.

So do you think you're going to do that in California? Maybe. Maybe. You know, I mean, born and raised. Yeah. You know, and you can take the kid out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the kid. So we're still, but right now, I already,

drawing, I already finished drawing. But hey, California could use something like that. Yeah. Really could. Yeah. Because I've already, believe it or not, I've already done nine pieces of equipment that nobody's ever seen, five machines that nobody's ever seen in this.

all about a mentally, physically, and spiritually endurance. You know, to take you to the next level that you never thought you can get there. So if you do something, when are you planning on doing it? Well, right now, I'm just taking one day at a time because sometimes you go, jump ahead of your time. A lot can happen in one day. Yeah. So I take it one day at a time, but I've already started it and we'll see where it goes. I really can't answer you. Okay. Win, but it's on the making. That's beautiful. That makes me very happy because you've got a lot to teach people. Both of you do, you know, and you with your outreach. Yes. You have a lot to

teach people. We've actually talked, you know, at one point, you know, about us buying a huge building and having a gym there, but also servicing people there, right out of there. You know, People that come to our office for tattoo removal or moving their lives down up the road a little bit. All that comes with the programming of the different services, I'm not going to inundate this broadcast with this, Joe. But at the same time, we've had that conversation, you know. It is about humanity.

You know, it is about people. People need a place. Yeah. People need a place to come, and they came from all over the world. When they get a chance to hear something like this, they will come from all over the world to mirror their truth to look at themselves

to a purpose and reason why they exist why they're here what are they doing this is the kind of place in my mind is what I've designed it that's why I designed equipment and all that for this place that makes me very happy that you're considering doing that

I think that would be amazing and I think you're right I think people will come from all over the world to train there and to learn there and I really hope that happens. I really do. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here. It's an honor. Thank you, Joe. My pleasure. Thank you. And it's good to see you again. Good to see you. Good to see you. It's still bobbing him. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you, everybody.