The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #73 with Jean Jacques Machado

Episode Date: August 5, 2019

Joe is joined by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu legend, Jean Jacques Machado.

Boom! And we're live! Jean-Jacques! Joe Hogan! Pull this up! Pull this up! It's been quite some time, but we made it! Yeah, we made it! We made it happen! People still to this day, all my friends call me Joe Hogan because of you. I don't know man. Joe Hogan! That's a funny Brazilian thing, you know, the Portuguese translation of R's to H's.

I think when we speak English, you have to use your tongue in a way that in Portuguese we are just flat out. But you use Rio. You don't say heel, right? Do you say heel or Rio? Rio. How does that work? Somehow, it's in Portuguese, the first two letters are the strongest one in the word. But Hickson and Hoyce and...

Say Hickson. Right. But it's not Rickson, but it's Rio. Yes. How's that work? I don't know. When it comes to a name, it's different than when you say a city name. Oh, really?

Yes. Oh. It's funny. Rio, it's more something for... And when you say personal, it becomes a little, I don't know, hexon. So with people, it's an H, but it can be an R, like a R sound with objects and things? Yes. Or just places?

I think more places. And it's funny because in each region in Brazil is a different accent. Really? Oh, that makes sense. Kind of like America. Yes. Each place is like, what country is that? Because the sound is very different.

It's a beautiful language. Portuguese has, especially Brazilian Portuguese, has like a sing-songy, like a flow to it. It's the bossa nova, carnaval. Yeah. But it's the way you guys talk. It's cool. It sounds good, you know? It's almost like singing. Yeah. But it's not the way you guys talk. It's cool. It sounds good, you know?

It's more almost like singing. Yeah. How many Americans have put on a fake Brazilian accent once they started really getting into jiu-jitsu? Must be. Man, I think in a way when jiu-jitsu established their flag outside Brazil, it's funny in a way that people, our goal is to make that area become more Brazilian

than any other place. It's not that we're trying to speak more English, but we make the English become more Portuguese. And almost every student that I have, maybe probably because of my accent, they start listening and speaking very similar the way we do in every jiu-jitsu school. Yeah, well, we used to see that in Taekwondo, too. Guys would have, like, fake Korean accents.

And in each school, the instructor has a different accent and different vocabulary, which even extended more. It becomes like another language in the jiu-jitsu community. So jiu-jitsu is huge in Rio, but what other parts of Brazil? It's very strange. If you stop and think about the history of martial arts, which is something that's always been very fascinating to me, jiu-jitsu is the most fascinating because until 1993,

very few people understood how potent Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was. When I started to understand Jiu-Jitsu and became on the teenager time, Jiu-Jitsu was basically in Brazil, has that amazing era of my uncle, Helio and Carson, the whole first generation of the family, which Brazil was all over, Jiu-jitsu was all over Brazil. As a teenager, remember that jiu-jitsu was basically established in a very wealth area in Rio de Janeiro only. Really? That's basically have all these schools used to call Gracie schools by the neighborhood.

You have a Gracie Umaitá, you have a Gracie Copacabana, you have a then future Gracie Barra, but everything was almost Gracie school everywhere. And it was wealthy people? Only in the wealthy area of Rio. Wow. Then slowly because, keep in mind, we used to have one, maybe two tournaments,

sport of Jiu-Jitsu a year. That's it. We always practiced Jiu-Jitsu mainly at that time for self-defense. We want to get ready for protect ourself. We never had much chances to try in a tournament because there's no tournament. Every training we do was based in defend yourself. What year did tournaments start coming about? What year did tournaments start coming about?

By the beginning of the 90s, I think the jiu-jitsu tournament started catching up more. Because there's a crazy video of your brother, Higin and Hickson, competing at a tournament once. It was the biggest tournament of the year. 300 competitors. Oh, that's crazy. That was the biggest one. That's crazy. That's so small, but that was the biggest one that's the biggest one 300 people now the thousands and thousands the big ones is like 5 000 people yeah now when this happened what year was this with your brother i think was in the 80s not sure which year was something i don't think today looking back back, it's something that I didn't like personally.

Because there was no need for that. We everybody used to train together. And later on, I find out there was behind the scenes, people involved with the organization, they wanted something more of the tournament. And they end up making something like that happen. Oh, so you mean because Higgin and Hickson had trained together, having them compete against each other was not a good idea? Oh, no. Hickson was teaching us.

He was our instructor. Why do you think they wanted to have him compete against Higgin? It wasn't even this happened on the day of the event. There was no planning of having that fight or anything. It just happened there. And today I realize that the promoter of the tournament, the sponsor, was talking to someone involved in the promotion. Hey, man, I'll give you more money if you make something like that happen.

In our time, if my instructor tells me I wanted to go and do that, I don't even question. I just go and do it. Right. That's the way we were in the whole family. And our instructor said, I've got to go and do this. Even though I don't like it, it's wrong, I should not do it, we'll do it. So what would be wrong about it would be that you were all training partners

and, in fact, Hickson was your instructor. So for one of you to go up against Hickson, it's just... I will give you a... In the 90s, early 90s, we have a sambo wrestling tournament in San Diego. And when we moved to America, there was no jiu-jitsu event at all. And we are in search of something similar that we can do to keep the edge. And we went to some judo tournaments. We went to wrestling tournaments,

not knowing the rules of anything. And we end up in a Sambo wrestling tournament. Sambo, for people who don't know, is a Russian martial art. They wear their judo jacket, but they wear wrestling shoes and shorts. It's kind of a mix of both. Different rules.

I still don't know exactly the rules. But here we are. And myself, and I would go there, and I saw Hickson in that event. And when it comes towards the final match, it was me and him in the final. And back that time, we had some conflict inside the family, things that I'll keep that in four walls.

But we were not, the relationship wasn't as well as it should be. Then when the referee called me, it's like, I'm not going to fight my instructor, my coach, my hero, my idol. No, and I told the ref, no, I'm not fighting. And even Hickson was like, look at me. And I think in a good way, he knew I would not ever compete against him. I think in a good way, he knew I would not ever compete against him. But at the same time, he realized that I would never turn myself against him.

I would fight for him for the rest of my life and period. And I think it was the point that I was able to engage back our family things together after this date and showing him that it's all my respect and i will fight for him never against him well there was a time where people were trying to use the gracie name and many people were opening up schools that weren't necessarily really that that wasn't their birth name gracie whereas you guys went a different direction and used the machado name and the machado name became enormous too so there was like from what I remember in the 90s when I first started training with you there was I started out at Hickson's place and I only trained there one time and then I went from Hickson's place to Carlson's place just because it was closer I didn't know any better I thought Gracie is Gracie

oh Carlson Gracie Hickson Gracie I didn't know anything and I was a white belt and i was like oh another gracie oh this is like 10 minutes closer to my house i'll just go that's how i used to be in brazil in the in the 80s is all gracie schools but then when that place went under carlson lost that play it was on hawthorne that was when vitor belfort made his ufc debut in 1997 and that place went under i started training with you and when i started training with you was like 97 ish right somewhere around there 98 somewhere around there what was i think was right before fear factor no those few years before yeah a few years before because fear factor was 2001 news radio's time yes i was still on news radio when i was training with you but i remember there was like a call oh you're machado now. I'm like, what are you talking about?

I was like, I didn't understand. Like, oh, there's like Machados and then there's like two different like factions. The thing that happened at that time was this. My mother, older sister, she's married to Carlos Gracie Sr. I mean, he had seven wives. Holla. His last wife was my mom's sister. Carlos Gracie Sr. I mean, he had seven wives. Hello. His last wife was my mom's sister. And that's, we grew up with the family.

We don't have the same last name, but I feel like I am, and all my brothers, the same thing. We represent the Grace family the best way we can, forever. And every day, we have a big family, have cousins that relate better than others others but it's still a family you know and back at that time two of my brothers were teaching at the Gracie school in Carson was Higgins and Carlos and I think by that time Chuck Norris was no longer training with

Horian at the great school there. Not sure what happened, and he stopped training. Then one day, Chuck Norris showed up at our house, at our garage. We used to teach in our garage in Redondo Beach. And we opened the door. Suddenly, look, it's like, man, that guy looks like Chuck Norris. Then the student was with him. I'm like, boy, this is Chuck Norris.

And we look like, what? And he brought him to train. He did train a few years back at the Gracie School and blah, blah, blah. And it's a long story. Then he started training for us. And when he started training for us, we become very good friends. It was amazing. Like something right away, he invited us to his house.

He's a great guy. Man, amazing person. Started hanging out. And by that time, I remember he used to make a movie. One movie a year. He worked for six months, make a movie. And he had six months off. When we met him, he was six months off.

Literally, he trains every day. But when he trains, he doesn't go home. We have lunch, he hangs out, go to a movie, then suddenly become good friends. Then one day, after a few months after training with us, he invited us to the valley where he used to live in Encino and said, look, I have a surprise for you guys. Then he took us to a shopping center right on Ventura Boulevard. And he shows, I have a gift for you guys. And he shows one of the unities, Matt's, right? It's like a school. Then he said, look, this is for you guys.

That's your school. Wow. Then we look at him like, Ventura Boulevard, right on the street. I said, Chuck, I don't think we can afford that. He said, no, don't worry. That's my building. You guys don't have to pay anything. I just want to make sure

I don't have to drive the 101 and 405. You guys drive. That's a hell of a drive, that Redondo drive. And he gave the school to us. Wow. Then I was like,

what can I tell more about this guy? That's amazing. You know? And that's why we have this school in the valley, because he used to live in Encino. The school was in Encino. Then we start coming here, then here we are, Joe Hogan. Tarzana.

Came by to our school. Yeah, that's amazing. Wow, what a great guy. But the point on that conversation was that our school, when we opened our school, used to be called Carlos Gracie Jiu-Jitsu because of our uncle. Because when we came in, we had the Gracie School, and I remember the family's big, and everybody has their side of story. Everybody's saying something about your uncle, your cousin,

and we want to make sure that this side of the family that we were representing, in a way, was Carlos' side. Then a lot of people, when we did the grand opening, Chuck Norris were with us doing the self-defense and demonstration in the grand opening of the school. And that was on Sunday. On Monday, we're not even ready for the amount of people that show up at our school.

And we have a small place with the amount of people. But a lot of people start calling the other school, asking where our school were. Because we're not even on the book. Yellow pages. Yeah, we are not even on that. And people are calling the other schools, hey, do you know where the other school is?

And that created a little situation back then. all the school weeks. And that created a little situation back then. And we got some calls from other cousins, and they said, hey, you guys cannot use the name. Then for the first time, using the name of our family, we realized, like, what?

Why not? Because you don't have the last name. You can't use it. Then for us, we grew up fighting for the family, doing everything for the family. still do nothing change but then their suggestion was yeah you can call machado why you call a great name my family was this because of horian yes was back when he was a lawyer and so he was the one who kind of copyrighted it and wanted to make he was like trying to sue carlson at one point do you know the crazy thing was this? We have one of the students, and as we learn Jiu-Jitsu,

the most important thing for me as an instructor was everybody can learn how to fight. Right. How can you translate what you learn on the mat to implement on your personal life? That's how we learn Jiu-Jitsu. The impact that Jiu-Jitsu has on you to succeed outside the academy.

I know you can fight, but can you fight on your life outside? Then it's a different ballgame. It's a lot bigger and a lot harder. And we have a lot of students that came to us when we have our garage time that changed their life. And coincidentally,

one of the students happens to be son of the biggest lawyer in California. And we have no idea because we end up getting sued by one side of the family. They don't have no money. We turn to the students and say,

guys, I'm sorry. We're going to have to leave. So you thought you were going to close down the school? Oh, yeah. Then we have this guy, which his father was very grateful to us, show up, said, look, I'm this hotshot lawyer. I can represent you guys.

I don't have money to pay. No, you guys are ready. I owe you because my son was saved by you guys. And who is your son? His son was training for us for quite some time, became very good in Jiu-Jitsu, changed his life around. He was a drug addict. Now he's one of the best yoga instructors out there.

A jujitsu addict. There we go. And changed his life. And that lawyer protected us, made sure that we stay here fine. That's great. And that was in the past. Today, all our families, we have our difference back then. It's less now.

Oh, it's nothing. Well, there's enough for everybody now. I think everybody realizes in the beginning, jiu-jitsu was so new and so powerful, and that Gracie name was so huge. Do you remember when Vitor, they used to call him Vitor Gracie? Yes.

They would call him Victor for some reason. It was Victor, V-I-K-T-O-R, and then it became Vitor. I was there when they were calling him Vitor Gracie. Man, do you know the amazing thing, Ana? I as a fighter and in my generation in Brazil, everybody wants to be part of the family. Of course. Everybody wants to feel that you're in that big circle because there's so much history.

The name is so huge. I think in August 12th, it's your birthday, right? August 11th. August 11th, they're going to have a statue of Carson Gracie being in Copacabana and Rio. I mean,

a lot of recognitions happen now. But Jiu-Jitsu, and especially the Grace Jiu-Jitsu, because anyone that does Jiu-Jitsu today, you're doing

Grace Jiu-Jitsu somehow. Yes. Maybe second generation, third generation, student of this guy who his instructor was a student of.

I mean, I think everybody should be and they are grateful for what their family's done i mean yes the fan it's the most important family in the history of martial arts by a long shot man it changed the world changed the world changed the world changed my world i remember when the ufc came out and i watched it and i had been a striker my whole life and um i had done a little wrestling in high school but no jujitsu no submissions no nothing and i watched hoist gracie just run through everybody and i felt i felt so vulnerable i was like oh no i don't know anything i don't know any of this what the fuck this is how i was watching

him take guys down and just strangle them like shit. And these guys were killers. They were stand-up killers. And Hoist was just dominating everybody. I was in Arizona. I remember the first one, the show on the pay-per-view. I was in Denver, right? The first UFC. And I was teaching a seminar.

And I think back those days, the guy paid me $1,000 for the weekend. And I was watching a group of guys, and they were not even sure. And I put the money on the table and said, hey, who wants to make a bet that the skinny little guy that looks like a doctor is going to win everything? And everybody was like, no, no, that guy. Okay, put the money down. Nobody put the money down.

And here we are because we knew what jiu-jitsu is. We knew that jiu Jitsu is we knew that Jiu Jitsu works and I think Jiu Jitsu brought a lot of reality into the martial arts world oh yeah we made a lot of enemies that today are our friends

because we showed something that people refuse to learn until they have no other choice they have no other choice now no man we have UFC the biggest fighting show in the world. Where'd that come from? Came from Horian.

There we go. Came from the streets in Brazil to the world. And Horian Gracie, who we all owe a huge debt to, he wanted to prove the effectiveness of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. So he established the Ultimate Fighting Championship. And that's where it came from. It came from that guy's imagination and his desire to spread the word of his family. That's what Jiu-Jitsu do for people.

Make you believe. Yeah. Imagine if you did not believe in what he has and what he learned. Yeah. We'll be, none of us will be here talking today. Yeah, true. We're probably still doing something else. And maybe not as happy as we are today.

No. It's amazing, man. The whole story is... We're probably still doing something else and maybe not as happy as we are today. It's amazing, man. The whole story is... It's hard for people to understand, too, that have never practiced it, how fun it is. And it makes your mind a better thing. I was telling some of the students, jiu-jitsu is a health way for you to be bullied by someone. You're in a school environment and you have the high belts playing with the white belts.

Yes. Day in, day out, the white belts come in. It's literally been bullying in a health way because it's in our safe environment. Well, it's not bullying where you're not getting picked on, but you're getting manhandled. Then the thing is, they get smashed daily. They come back for next class. Yes. Next class.

Until soon, they're going to be able to do the same thing. Yes. And that little step they do, they realize like, well, I'm being picked by someone now. I stand by myself and I'm able to. And he turned the table around. It's a very healthy way to be picked up, smash every day, that if you stay there, stick there, you're going to use that, you're going to reverse that.

You get choked, pretty soon you're going to be choking someone. You're going to unbar someone. And it's walking up in the stairs, and that's how we grew up. We go to the schools, we get beat up, like by the older cousins and, oh man, I don't think that's for me but then we come

back one more time then we come back one more time then 40 years later you're still coming back for one more time well it teaches you not just resilience but how important it is to just keep showing up and it's uh it's fun the whole thing you get choked to go home. Like, how did that guy choke me? I thought I knew how to defend that. How did he make me turn in the way that he get the choke? Then it's intrigue. Then you keep, and back in the 80s, we had no videos. We had to try to memorize and see how this actually happened.

Right. It was a lot more challenging because you have to try to remake it. Right. Not sure if that's what actually happened to you. But the amazing thing in, I remember a lot of times I'm looking around the mats, I have all my brothers, all my cousins. It's no way someone in this room would not have the answer for the question that you have. Right.

And you have so many different views that it's impossible for you not to learn and not get good in jiu-jitsu. Yeah. You have so many amazing fighters out there knowing more than you know. Then I remember every time I ask something to the technique, I get five different answers. Yeah. And I use the one that works for me. Well, that's what's interesting, right, is that everyone has a different approach.

That jiu-jitsu is almost like the way people talk. It's like having conversations. People use different words and different styles. And the amazing thing is, let's say we train and I do well with you. Then you train with that guy, you do well with that guy. In the theory, I should be doing well with that guy. No. Maybe his game

does not fit with my game. I might have a lot of difficulties against him, which I shouldn't. But it's the matchup game. It's very interesting. It's nothing that is guaranteed, oh, that guy is going to... No, it's not. Maybe my game is used

to yours, but not to his. Well, that was the most amazing thing about Hickson, right? Because Hickson was the one guy that everyone said was the best. When I grew up, and I have to say it's a privilege to watch, for me

I have some guys from Carson School. They were amazing fighters. I used to watch them, and I remember one of them, Cassio Cardoso, for me was phenomenal. We have definitely Hoyler for his size, his weight. Most accomplished. Phenomenal. All the greats he's in competition.

Phenomenal, man. Phenomenal. What this guy did with his size against opponents if people look like that no way and yes it is a way yeah and definitely as you're going heavier i have my brother higan which was an amazing fighter too and evidently for me my time was hickson it's like you have the era of Hickson. A lot of unbelievable fighters, but you're in the wrong decade. You have Hickson there.

Could be you, but he was right there. Right. You could have been number two under Hickson. You could have been number one under anybody else. And the amazing thing, you feel like a chameleon. He can kind of make any game. You train with him, he can pretend to be you fighting me or anybody. It's amazing, that aspect, especially on the teaching process.

What was so good about him? He used to go to our school. We have 30 of the best guys, all higher belts. And he tells you, okay, choose how you want to start. And you choose, okay, he's not going to get out he gets out and he gets you in the position you ask him to start

with everyone I think the most the best thing that he has on his game on my view and you should understand that was his defense no way to get him

you let your mom take his back, do whatever you want. You can't get him. He used to start, like, guys, take his back with a rear naked choke, fully locked in, black belts. Go ahead. Start from here. And then defend. Get out.

Get out. And get you there. Yeah. Crazy. Then messes your mind up. Like, hey, wait a minute. Yeah. How can he get out and he gets me here, can't get out, you know?

And I think the amazing thing was his confidence and belief on that. It makes amazing. Well, he was unusual in that he was really into physical fitness as well, like yoga, really into yoga, become incredibly flexible and strong and really into breathing. really into yoga, become incredibly flexible and strong, and really into breathing. He had an amazing control of his body as well as the knowledge of jiu-jitsu.

Man, he brought a lot of elements to jiu-jitsu. I don't think people realize how important it was. Because people say, oh, I knew that. No, you did not. He brought in the breathing aspect, the gymnastica that makes you come closer to the nature habitat. Yeah, gymnastica natural is what we're talking about. It's a style of...

Who invented that? What was the man who invented that? Orlando Cane. It was a Brazilian thing as well. Brazilian guy, he's still alive in his 80s and you look at him like, how can he do or still do that? Really?

And the whole idea is move your body like the animals. Right. To bring back to us the animal instinct that we end up losing by the generations. You see some of that now with Ido Portal and a lot of these guys are training martial artists in these movement classes and movement styles. And a lot of that is very similar to gymnastic and natural. Amazing, but the biggest difference, I think, was the concept that he used, the approach that he used. Wasn't as just mechanical the way it is.

It was something that sometimes on the exercise, you change the direction of your movements. It's not certain kata. You have to do one, two, three, four. No. He goes one, two, jump for ten, go back to six. You flow. And Hickson brought that into Jiu-Jitsu. And I remember training. He goes, hey, get there. Keep moving. Keep moving. Don't stop moving. Keep the flow of the technique. You're going to get it.

And he brought that movement into jiu-jitsu, which for me made a huge difference in the way I fight. How did you fight before that? We learned the technique. We do the drills. And it's more like you pause and wait for somebody to pause in this position. When he came in, I understand that you learn how to start guiding people to where you want

them to go. I'm training you. I want you to go to my left. There's no other way for you to go to my right. I learned how to mold my body in a way. The only direction you will have to go is on my left. I know that, but you don't. Right.

There we go. I want to step ahead. Then when you go to my left, you're going to put your left hand I know that, but you don't. Right. There we go. I'm one step ahead. Then when you go to my left, you're going to put your left hand on the ground instead of your right hand. I know that too. Then I'm two steps ahead of you. I mean, when you're trying to defend something,

you're already two steps behind because the defense is always shorter than the offense. You stretch your arm. For me to get your arm, I have to put my hands and swing my leg. For you, just bring your arm back. It's always short. It's quicker.

That's why when you have one or two steps ahead, you don't have the time to defend. Right. You're blocking off the defense. I'm already too far ahead for you to defend. Right. And that's what I learned with those movements that he brought into jiu-jitsu. You start learning how to guide and mold yourself to make you go to that direction. Who was a challenge to him in the early days?

Because there was a lot of great guys, right? We have a lot of great guys, and it's funny. Sometimes I go to the Internet and see some of the fights, and you notice that a lot of guys, they can kind of hang out for until five minutes after five minutes and great athletes they just done right because of that movement he keep going constantly keep that rhythm people were not able to keep up with him right and he's not lifting weights and the body building no he's and we learn how important for human is to be in contact with nature would you imagine yourself not going for hiking some days in the morning i mean we need that

we need that energy yeah we need to walk without shoes we need to be near the mountains the water that's something that make us healthy and stronger and that's why you see we used to go a lot up in the mountains and waterfalls and out of the city to try to get that in a halfway animal instinct that we have. We're there, listen to the birds, listen to in the middle, oh, maybe it's a coyote there. People that are in the city, they go in the mountains, they're going to get eaten by a mountain lion. Not even here, the mountain lion. the mountains, they're going to get eaten by a mountain lion. Not even here, the mountain lion.

But if you're walking there, quite often you understand that you develop and still have that, oh, I heard something there. We're losing more of that. As jiu-jitsu, we're trying to bring people into that environment, which is something that makes you better off regardless. Be more aware of yourself. Exactly. Yeah. More primal and um also that's the struggle of

jiu-jitsu is so much different than what most people experience on a daily basis where you're literally trying to stop someone from choking you and it's a friend like a good friend like you you love them like a brother yeah but they're trying to choke the shit out of you and you're trying to stop them and the amazing thing you're trying to stop them. And the amazing thing, you're trying to stop and you don't get mad at him. Not at all. You don't say, thank you, man. Slap hands.

And then I say, how'd you get me? Like, oh, you forgot this. Like, oh, God. Here we go. It's the amazing thing. One student said something like, do you know why Jiu-Jitsu people are so friendly? Because they hug each other all the time. And I don't know.

I think you're right. There's something to that something to that yeah well there's so much physical contact that that is true there's something to that but i think it's the the eye contact that the talking to each other and um in that exchange of information it's also humbling which i think people need i think people have a distorted perception of what they can do in this life and I think sometimes you need to understand this is where you are and when one of the beautiful things about the ranking system of jiu-jitsu is you know when you give someone a purple belt you you say hey this is real you're ready for this I've seen you I watch you I know you know a hundred percent where they are they're ready to get a purple belt and then it's this feeling like okay the all this showing up day after day drilling after drilling coming in when i don't want to is this paying off and i've reached a new place it's always like

when you promote someone's a flashback they go back like whoa yeah they realize all this time that i bring in a very good way suffering going to this it worth when right here right now feeling much better when you gave me my purple belt I remember thinking that's probably one of the happiest moments of my life because to me a purple belt was like a blue belt was like you just kept showing up you kept showing up you kept showing up now you got a blue belt but a purple belt was like you could get a black belt you just have to keep going you in the top of the mount is a purple belt you're right there with the with all the top guys there's no way down there's just up you're right there with all of them that was during the fear factor days i was

more happy about getting that purple belt than i was about getting Fear Factor. I have to mention something because I get a lot of messages from people like, oh, man, is Joe Hogan good? And Joe Hogan, Jiu-Jitsu is good. I say, man, come to my school anytime Joe Hogan shows up. And he's back now training. It's not about his power, man. He doesn't care. He wrestles everybody, anybody.

And I see him twist the people around there in the school and he's one and this is this is real he's one of the hardest students training partners that i have and i think one of the last time i wrestled him in my malibu school i think we trained maybe for half an hour something like that i was there for i don't know 20 minutes just trying to sweep joe and joe was right. I finished the training. I said, man, my legs are sore. And I don't remember if I did sweep him or not. I just stopped training after half an hour. And I want people to understand it's anybody that I want to train, I would never, and I refuse, I never give a belt to anybody unless they deserve the belt and when i

say deserve is i don't defer people from more famous less famous thought no it's everybody in jujitsu world is the same you have to walk in the same road as everybody because that's the only way you actually gonna learn jujitsu for real. And I don't remember you saying no to anybody, training, get hurt a lot of times, don't care, show up, and my neck is here, my knee's there, and training. And you're out there that you listen. He's one of the strongest, excuse my language,

motherfuckers I have in my school, training Jiu-Jitsu with. And that's why I'm here. I'm pushing him to get back and i'm gonna show up now that i know where he is i'm gonna show up here what's up joe where should i be this is man as soon as i heal this fucking that is amazing and i want people to know that's uh is the real deal another thing that people don't know is when he was back in the fear Factor time. He had one idea to, one of the challenge for the people would be training, fighting a cage with me in that case, doing Jiu-Jitsu.

And then I realized, Joe, you don't need me. You go there and do it. You're going to mangle everybody there. You don't need anybody to do that. It wound up not happening. They decided that it was too dangerous to do a person versus a person. They thought that there was too many legal implications. Meanwhile, they had people ride a fucking bull.

It didn't make any sense. So the challenge was they were going to have to start with you on the ground, like in your guard or with you mounting them. We had to figure out what it was. And whoever survived the longest, you know, like the one person who survived the longest. You don't need me. You can use Joe. Joe's going to do the same thing and going to twist whatever needs to do.

He has all the tools for that. That was funny. The point was you. You can do it. There was no need for me to do it. How are you still fairly injury free after all these years because what's interesting about you is you know you've been doing jiu-jitsu forever but you can still roll and and train with people a lot of other guys

after a certain amount of time they really can't roll anymore they develop all these back problems back problems in particular, neck problems. I learned, I mean, more you learn jiu-jitsu, less chance you have to get hurt. And my point is I'm always under control. I'm always controlling my opponent. And I know how to avoid certain situations before the situation actually happens. Because a lot of times people go for the kill, but not concerned about them getting killed. Sometimes they expose themselves to being in a bad position. And they have to learn sometimes you do an armbar on somebody and somebody put all the weight on your neck.

And I see people insisting in getting there. No, you go back, give up, keep the control, then you do it again. But not insisting some bad positions. And every day it has to do how well do you eat? How well do you sleep? Do you exercise? I mean,

a lot of other things are involved. By exercise, you mean like lift weights? Lift weights and run, you know, and swim.

You have so many things that you can do. And people say, oh no, everybody's going to die one day. Sure, we can die tomorrow,

but I want to make sure that time in my life I'm healthy. Right. And I don't see myself going to a jiu-jitsu school, teaching and not training. But even Hickson can't train anymore. Oh, no, he's back training. He's rolling? Yes, he's rolling now.

When did he start rolling again? I saw one of his students, they trained last week just for an hour. Wow. He had an injury. And you're going to understand a lot. He had a real bad back problem right yes the back and hip a lot of things and a lot of those things happen more not with jiu-jitsu with some of the mma fights you gotta understand back those days with no no protection at all and right

no rules throw each other out of the ring and that was something yeah very very challenging no weight class yeah i mean he show up as a young age fighting some monsters over there. And it's like, man, I don't know how he did it, but he did it. You know, showing up. Like Zulu when he was 18. The Zulu is insane. He was so strong. But it was more from that time, the next Jiu-Jitsu.

Jiu-Jitsu never got harder than Jiu-Jitsu. Poor neck or nothing. Then his back training, man man i would love it jiu-jitsu is amazing man i don't see myself with 80 years old not be able to train didn't you you got a cortisone shot recently i yeah i'm not sure what happened and my knee bugs me and i go there have a little meniscus tear i'm still still training, have a certain position that it's not comfortable. I have the court zone shot, and so far, so good. Not bothering you anymore? Not bothering me.

You have a certain position that, but the physical therapy that I'm doing is being very helpful. What kind of stuff are you doing? And lift weights, and every day on a bike, doing things that make your legs stronger. Bike's great. Oh, bike is amazing. So good for the knees. No impact. I mean, I think we have everything we need.

If I don't have, I can learn how to do it. But, man, jiu-jitsu is a lifestyle in general. Yes. Yeah, it is. It's almost like a philosophy, too, because there's a lot of people that they learn how to deal with life through the struggle of jiu-jitsu because the struggle of training is so much harder than most of the struggles that you face in your daily life. It makes you more accustomed to dealing with uncomfortable positions.

Man, I will tell you a funny story, what jiu-jitsu does for you. My older daughter had some health issues, like at 2 o'clock in the morning, something like that, and called the doctor and said, look, you got to go and get this inhaler or something at the pharmacy. Man, I was wearing my pajamas, driving crazy to the pharmacy. And as I'm walking in, I have a guy walking out and bumping his shoulder mine. Hey, son of a D, F you. And I said, man, 2.30 in the morning when I fight, go home.

Go to your wife, dude. Then the guy, no, I'm going to wait for you. Then he's outside. I go get the medication. I put this stuff in. I say, man, get the guy outside. He's no longer there. Several months later, the same guy show up at my school.

And I did not recognize him, but he keeps staring at me and I approach, hey, how are you? Have you trained Jiu-Jitsu before? He's like, do you remember me? Did you train here before? No.

I bump into you in the pharmacy. And he goes like, thank you for not hurting me. And I goes like, man, what happened to you? Oh, my father passed away a day before. I was so depressed. So the point for me was with Jiu-Jitsu, I can walk away for something like that. And I feel sorry for the guy.

I'm not concerned. I'm afraid of him. No, I'm not afraid. It's just the fact that I'm saving him to get hurt. Right. Today, he's one of my best friends. He's my lawyer. Wow.

My dear friend. He's been training jiu-jitsu since that time. Almost 20 years. Wow. But I remember that day walking in and the guy bumped into me. You want to fight? Wow. And I was like, man, I walk away.

No, no, no. You're too strong for me, man. Go home and relax that's the difference too between jujitsu and kickboxing because the kickboxing you you can only hurt somebody you can't really like hold on to him and go hey hey you ever see the video already hurt man you ever see the video yeah right he was already hurt right you ever see the video of matt sarah uh matt sarah uh was in uh an altercation with some drunk guy in a bar or a restaurant or something like that. I think I saw that.

It's been a while. And Matt just took the guy down, mounted him, and just held it onto his wrist. And he's like, calm down, calm down. And the employers are trying to figure out what to do. He's like, he's fine, he's fine, calm down. But Matt didn't hurt him. He just held on to him and basically just mounted him and grabbed ahold of his wrists and was controlling him. Man, when we say Jiu-Jitsu is a gentle art, we mean that.

Yes. Jiu-Jitsu will give you the choice to choose to hurt someone or not. Yeah. And I think more you train, you realize that that person has something already going on in their life. Right. And we choose not to.

Yeah. I mean, we grew up in our time, and it's funny, we're teenagers and no jiu-jitsu tournaments, and then we go like, how are we going to test ourselves? And back in the 80s in Brazil, we had some fun time.

We'd go to a nightclub, and fight breaks through. And here we are practicing our jiu-jitsu, but not hurting anybody. And not because we choose or somebody provoke. No, we get people coming towards us because we're always little guys. We're never the biggest guys in the place. Then we just make sure like, man, we take them down, hold, choke somebody out, but no scratch.

And on the end, those people become students of our school. Right. All those little kids can do that to us. Right. And that's one way that's funny in the 80s that jiu-jitsu became even bigger. With some of the altercation on the street, we convinced the person that we just fought, we just choked, to come and become our student. Because you didn't hurt them.

And they end up coming and learn that. They feel humiliated, but at least they feel thankful that you didn't injure them. For sure, yeah. In a fight, man, I think you should give it that sense of control. Yes. That you have that choice. This is the way I always explain to people. I say, if I'm in a street fight with someone

and they're swinging, if it's a strong person, they're a good athlete, they have strong arms, and they're throwing punches at me. If I get hit, I'm in trouble. No matter who you are, if you get hit, you're in trouble.

Most likely, I won't get hit if I know how to fight and I keep my hands up and I move right. But if I get a hold of you, you're not doing anything to me. Like there's a difference between like someone who's untrained and someone who's trained. Like if a jiu-jitsu black belt grabs a person

and actually gets control of them, there's no lucky, you're not going to luckily submit me. It's not going to happen. But you can luckily, you could hit someone. It can happen in a street fight. If someone has a little bit of speed and they have power and there's a strong person, they can hit you. It's much more dangerous. And that's the only, and when I was training, it was the only opportunity our opponent has is before we close the distance.

Right. That's the danger zone. the danger zone. And if you think for a second, a lot of things that we do on the ground in jiu-jitsu, you just bring those two people up in the close distance. It's the same thing. And a lot of people today, they don't do the same. They're trying to fight standing when they hold, different than when you're on the ground. The way you move your legs, the way you play guard, it's the same thing when you're standing. Working the people's body as a hook, as a sweep to make somebody fall. And we learned that when we get close to someone, we make the size not be affected as much as could if you have a distance. Do you think that there was a transitionary period where a lot of jiu-jitsu guys were having a hard time because they didn't know how to take people down.

And then the wrestlers were learning how to keep them at distance. They were learning takedown defense. Yes, and that's the very challenging thing. But if I'm fighting a wrestler, what are the chances that he's going to take me down? It's higher than me actually taking him down. And most of the things that we do in the jujitsu and what we see in the sport jiu-jitsu today we're not going to use in a real fight most of the jiu-jitsu is in a tournament we're not going to use that in a fight that's the difference from that generation of the 80s

to the generations from the 90s until up today it's It's two different kinds of Jiu-Jitsu. One is a sport which is very beautiful. A lot of people, they do amazing techniques. But the rules of the sport have the tendency to take to another direction. And when you have the Jiu-Jitsu as the 80s, we practice using a lot of leverage with the arms patience and when we play God and they're 80s is different than we play today today have a lot of geese wrapping around everything he became a weapon right in our time they give us

never weapon they give us like almost like a paper right we use a lot the neck a lot the elbow well that's what helped you when you transition to no gi right well definitely and also because you were born with no fingers on your left hand. Man, for me, until today, there's no difference. Right. I play exactly the same in both. Right. No difference at all.

But you were all overhooks and underhooks and grips around the body. And whereas the guys who transitioned to MMA and their whole game relied on grabbing collars and sleeves, those guys had a harder time. For sure. A lot of guys, that's why a lot of guys that are trying to come in, they might be good in their top games, but when they go on their back, they are kind of a little lost until they understand how to play the game. Yeah, that's why it's so impressive when you see a big guy who also has a great back,

great off his back, like Fabricio Verdun. I think if you notice, if I'm on the bottom of someone and I'm flat, I'm a target. Right. I have to change the angle. If I don't change the angle, I'm going to get ground and pound.

Right. Like we've been seeing a lot. Yes. You see some, oh, there's a black belt in jiu-jitsu. Then you go like, oh. It's flat. It just gets powdery. It's flat on his back.

That means all my weight now is affecting you. I'm dropping you. You have to learn that your legs should be in angle. This way I'm not able to hit you there. Your legs are on the way. And that's one thing that very few guys do it. Or you close the distance or you change the angle. But it can be look at him trying to hold his neck.

He's going to hit you hard. Well, Eddie figured out a brilliant thing with rubber guard, a brilliant thing with mission control and how to control from the back of the neck. He closes the distance. Yes, yes. He closes the distance. He changed a lot of people's games. It closes the distance.

Yes, yes. It closes the distance. He changed a lot of people's games. What some people don't want to recognize, but they have to, is the idea that he had. And I remember him coming up and trying some of the techniques. And people, oh, this is crazy. I said, no, man, keep going. You're going to get somewhere. I don't think not everybody can do that because you have to be a little bit flexible.

But once you learn how to do it, you save your life. Yeah. How many guys that when they get a hold of their foot and keep that close, there's no gap or room for the person on top to hit you. And as you're trying to move too much, your arm suddenly is stuck. Yep. And there we go. Yeah.

It closes the distance. You can't be playing when my arms are free because I'm going to ground and pound you, especially the heavy guys, man. Right. You can hit once or twice, that's it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he figured out some very unique ways to use his legs. And you notice that he closed the distance or he changed the angle.

Mm-hmm. Closed the distance, changed the angle. Whoever's on top, you don't have space or you don't have the angle you're always in a weird position when they get a hold of your head and the leg the way he does it's interesting to see the evolution of jiu-jitsu from 1993 ufc style to 2019 too there's so many new techniques there's so many new approaches but there's some guys like Haja Gracie for instance who just use the basics honed to razor-sharp edge you don't see a lot of crazy Barambolo chokes or wild things from a guy those a lot of the like real rock-solid traditional techniques guys he this

simple works all the time. Yes. Whichever simple works all the time. Yeah. Anything Jiu Jitsu that require more than three steps, you need to train a lot. But even Hickson, right?

Like Hickson style was the, just, it wasn't anything that no one knew how to do. It's just, he knew how to do it better than anyone. There we go. He's, he's the way he moved.

Yes. You can't find him right and once you find him he gets out and get you he goes around your back it's it was amazing man triangles arm bars rear naked chokes normal stuff normal things that everybody knows how to do you get to his guard you know you're gonna fall in the back yes simple as that oh i'm his god i'm gonna fall on his back oh he's he's going to sweep me. Yeah. Oh, I'm not going to sweep. Oh, he's going to unbar me.

I mean, it's not much where you can feel safe. And today you see a lot of, the jiu-jitsu you have, you need something called transition. You go from number one, beginning of the position, transition, then you have the submission.

Today they jump from number one beginning to the submission is no transition the transition now has become muscle they have to overpower never seen so many injuries today in the jiu-jitsu competition really so many injuries shoulder knee foot elbow like my god what do you think it's from because it it's no you're missing a lot of Really? So many injuries, shoulder, knee, foot, elbow. Like, my God. What do you think it's from? Because it's no, you're missing a lot of sometimes the finesse to get there. They have to muscle. Well, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about your longevity.

Because you are the best guy that I know of in terms of like you, you're, I mean, you have a little knee injury, a little meniscus. But that's it. I've known you forever. You've never had like a major surgery. You've never had like a major problem. And everybody I know gets hurt, everybody. Again, it's the way you train, the way you control the fight. I think people got to understand is I'd rather get you once,

but I get you well, than trying to get you 20 times. Sometimes people try to go after each other, and the injury will happen. Right. Because they're clashing. Exactly. If I have somebody come very tense to me, I don't play tense back. I try to relax. The more you relax, the more I'm going to be able to achieve against you. I remember when you competed against Dean Listerister and he was about 250,000 pounds.

Dean was so fucking big. He was so big. But you were able to use your technique. There was one of the very big frustration for me on that event because I remember I was training to be in my weight class

below 170. And that year I was with Marcelo Garcia. We have some good names, good guys to fight. And I was training a lot for that. And I think a week and a half before the event, Arona was supposed to fight Dean Lister. But back in those days, I think his contract with Pride did not allow him to fight

because they're concerned he's an injury habit and he's going to be missing the Pride fight. Then they come a week and a half to offer me that fight and I end up taking that fight, but I don't think I trained specific and focused to fight Dean. And I think the fight was, honest for me, Dean was a monster,

but it wasn't a good fight. There was not much happening on the fight. It was mostly defense and stall. He was concerning to move. Right. And I felt the difference. I was so light. Yeah. And I did not train anybody heavy

because I was fighting on the 1-7. I was just training people that way, class and lower, to get the speed to be ready for those guys. Then here, yeah, a week and a half, I don't think I was feeling ready for fight somebody this big. My strategy, I have no strategy back then. Okay, let's try to move.

But he was very smart, not moving much. I have evident to be worried about him, grab a hold, get a hold of my foot. And I think it was 20 minutes minutes not much happened on the fight and um and for me was was frustrated not be ready for fight like that because i was training to fight in a lower class i was so ready and i regret not doing that would be amazing but for a lot of reason end up moving up and no problem well when you did do Abu Dhabi the first time I think it was a wake-up call for a lot of people that you know because of you know being born with no fingers in your hand and your approach to jiu-jitsu being so

overhook and underhook powered you know you you transition so smoothly into no gi whereas a lot of guys from your era they would go and transition into no gi and they really they're missing so many tools because they're so used to grabbing the gi you know i remember when you got a call to go in 99 and um they said the rules would be 10 minutes, five minutes, first five, nothing counts. Right. Then after five, whatever the rules were, I don't even know today what the rules were anyways, what counts or not count.

But then I realized, man, the first five minutes not count, let's go. Right. So if people don't know what we're saying here, Abu Dhabi has a very strange rule set. So for the 10-minute round, the first five minutes of it, there's no points. It doesn't matter what happens. If someone takes you back, if you get mounted, you get into a triangle, but you escape, there's no points.

Then I just go bring the guy to the ground, pull guard right away, and let's go. Right. And I think it was a surprise for a lot of people because right from the bat I keep going all the way and again with the transition that I for me I have no transitions the same gear no gear right and I feel at home yeah that's what I do every day right and I felt a lot of guys not sure how to behave but on my mind the first five minutes nothing counts and it doesn't matter if he mounts me take my back or do anything

nothing because realistic the whole idea is to make people actually go after each other but when I get there I see people waiting

standing five minutes walking around waiting for the five minutes to be up waiting for the five minutes to be up so they get a takedown and then win on one point

this is the opposite of what Jiu Jitsu is and I said hell no let's go to the ground see if he's better grappling than me good if he's not good but it was a wake-up call for a lot of people because they got to see you who did you fight in that first year you fought sakurai right i yeah fought uh who was a big time mma fighter at the time i think they were well known and very well known mma world over there.

Also known as being really good grapplers. So it was very eye-opening for people to see you run through them. If I'm not wrong, it was the first loss for Sakurai. His first loss.

But it was fine. I think for me, it's my world and let's see if you're a better grappler. Good. If you're not, there we go.

Good for me. It was fun. And I think it was very good for me to all the ADCC I was able to be among the best three guys. For me, it was a great accomplishment

being able to stay up on the top of the game and fighting the lighter guys, the heavier guys. I was in special no-gi, which was something that it takes for a lot of people some kind of adjustment because they're born in the gi world, basing their game on the gi, and they have actually some hard time too. And a lot of them even gave up. It's like, oh, forget it.

some hard time too. And a lot of them even gave up. It's like, oh, forget it. Now, in the early days of jiu-jitsu, there was a lot of no-gi guys on the luto livre side, right? There was a big, for people who don't understand, there's a big rivalry in Rio between jiu-jitsu and luto livre. A lot of times you have people that come to our school, and they don't fit in and they walk away.

And if I understood back those days, those guys were some of these people that did not fit into the jiu-jitsu schools and they end up creating their own no-gi school. But you got to understand that in the 80s, our generation, in Rio de Janeiro summertime, man, it's 110, 115, extremely humid. And we did a lot of trainings. We trained the gi, and after the gi session, take the top of the gi out, and here we go. We train no-gi. Since we are white belts, we've been doing that. Because the intent was learning how to get out of a headlock,

how to be on the bottom, somebody trying to slap you, what do you do. And that was our training, that generation. That's why almost everyone from the 80s is still up to date teaching and making a great school. still up to date teaching and making a great school all that generation still the longevity of them doing Jiu Jitsu

still out there a lot of guys that I see now especially with the social media they're all teaching they're all doing very well a lot of them too big some of them still in good shape

and teaching but that generation I think for me was a gold generation because they're still out there. And the people that come from that generation, their students, they develop such a good jiu-jitsu roots. Is there still lute delivery anywhere? I think they still have there. But it's not a rivalry anymore, right? No, I don't think today passed that time. And I think that the rivalry was a need for our generation to establish jiu-jitsu as a very effective art.

And I think some of the MMA events that happened was the fight should be happening on the street. Then we're able to bring that into arena. This way only the two guys will be fighting. Not innocent people get hurt on the streets. Then we're able to bring that into an arena. This way, only the two guys will be fighting. Not innocent people get hurt on the street. And I think what people don't realize is a lot of those fights could be happening right on a nightclub or some people even get killed. No, let's bring that fight into the arena. Only you two guys, nobody else is going to get hurt.

And that's why a lot of those events happen. No money, no prize money, nothing. Wow. Just for pride. There's some videos of some of them that still exist. Just for pride. There's no money involved in any of those events. Who did Hickson fight on the beach? Who was that?

Hickson fought Hugo Duarte. That's right. Hugo Duarte went on to fight in pride. He fought Tank Abbott, right? Man. He fought some different people in MMA. I remember that day was so funny because you have a point on the beach in Rio that is

where most of the Jiu-Jitsu, where the pretty girls were. And all the guys would go on that session on the beach. Very famous people. And then everybody would go on that session. And we keep hearing that, who could challenge Hickson, who could challenge Hickson, who could challenge Hickson. Here he is right here. There we go. Smacked him in the face.

And Hickson was like, no, he didn't say anything and I'm right, there's some walking right there and light shorts there. My mission were, Hickson look at me and say, hey, watch my back. Where were you?

I'm the one. Okay. I'm off the screen now. Right on my left, you're going to see me standing there. If I get up, I can show you. So what year is this? What year is this? Man, sometime in the 80s.

And do you know who's filming that? We have High and Gracie. He was sitting on someone's shoulders with a camera. This is crazy to try to see. Oh, no, man. I was getting...

So many bodies. I was getting punched on the head, on the back, just because I was watching Hickson's. But everybody didn't jump in. No, no, no. What we did was we made a circle arms to arms and and Hickson's the one with the green shorts right

green stripe yes and he had a long hair that day which they got grab his hair doesn't look like his hair is that long oh no he it's a ponytail there really yeah I knew he had a ponytail from a lot of... Oh, see, now you see Hickson mounting him. Oh, no. He got tired of punching the guy. We felt... And so this is how it ended, him punching him? Yeah, there we

go. And the guy tapped and, stop, please, stop. And he has a group of guys with him. We want to make sure that nobody jump on his back. Wow. But the thing is we we have this and don't get me wrong i'm not telling people to go and do that but in that time in that generation a lot of those fights that happen in the street was a need for jiu-jitsu to be established the way should be and was better than two guys fighting there. Then that fight ended up in a bar,

in a nightclub, a gang fight, people shooting each other. Right. And I remember Hickson said, we get together in our first original Gracie Bar high school there. Some members of other Jiu-Jitsu schools. They say,

look guys, Hickson's going to go there. I'm going to make a circle. Only him and the guy fight. Nobody else fight. You understand that? Because if everybody fights, then somebody's going to get a circle only him and the guy fight. Nobody else fights. You understand that? Because if everybody fights then somebody's going to get really hurt

because you're not going to be able to control anything. We just made a big circle. We hold hands. Regardless of what happened we will not interfere. It's Hicks and then the guy and that's it.

But we want to make sure nobody jumps in. Then I remember Hicks, hey, you got to watch my back. And I go like, okay. You got to watch his back. Don't do nothing. You got to watch my back. And here we are.

I was behind him and getting punched, getting kicked from other people. But the crazy thing was that happened and Hickson on his mind said, look, I'm going to go there, slap him on the face and he's going to run. Then we're like, okay. Then he goes there, slap that guy and the guy did not run. Then we go, look, I'm going to go there, slap him on the face, and he's going to run. Then we're like, okay. He goes there, slapped that guy, and the guy did not run. Then we go, oh, shit. Here we go. Game on.

Then we hold each other, and I think this happened on Saturday. Tuesday night, Hugo went to Hickson School with a lot of people there all carrying weapons Hickson wasn't there and they call he shows up in shorts and he quickly just slapped Boog around somebody called the police later on and they even shoot the ceiling um ar-15 whatever just boom and they left but then was hickson just smashed him quick because it was on the cement not on the sand um but that again happened in a way for us as a pride to prove the point jujitsu is the best style of martial arts uh we keep going strong and hugo was a luther livery guy who was a little little respected real strong one of the best guys still today. And they had a grappling style.

It just wasn't as comprehensive. Back there, they were doing a lot of foot locks already. Yeah. They're the ones that are doing a lot of foot locks, a lot of heel hooks. Yeah. And they have some quality fighters among of them. Definitely.

Eugenio Tadeo. Eugenio Tadeo. I ended up fighting one of the guys from there and uh one of the abu dhabi's there but as the time goes by i think people get older can understand and i don't think today has any conflict or any bad feelings and they must have adopted a lot of the jiu-jitsu techniques too everything was jiu-jitsu techniques too. Everything is jiu-jitsu. You just take the gear out. Right. Today I'm training grappling. Okay, what is the definition of grappling? You're on the ground fighting,

then it's jiu-jitsu. What do you think about this new trend that you're seeing? Like you saw it particularly coming out of John Donaher and Dean Lister with the leg locks. Like leg locks are so big in jiu-jitsu competition now.

When we learn jiu-jitsu, and still today, we will not learn anything related to legs until we get our blue belt. The main reason behind this was to be able to let you develop guard without concern anything. Just learn how to move your hips in sweeps and hooks. Foot lock is something very effective. But if I show you right away, I might be stopping some of the evolution of your game or the other person that you train with that he can learn,

which will make even better his foot lock. Right. That's why we hold back until people get up one year two into jujitsu to learn leg locks but today we have the nogi everybody's such in a hurry that a lot of nogi schools the first thing people wants to learn hey i want to learn heel hook and jujitsu with gi i want to learn ambar right they know gi wants to go straight to the leg the gi people want to go straight to the arm but i think particularly because of the the success of these leg lockers against high level competition no it's effective is amazing i think it's a portion

of the game you know and uh and you you will see the development of people that will have defending that, which also will force guys to pass also beyond the legs only. But definitely, their work is very dangerous. Let people wrap their legs around your leg, hook you there. I mean, not everybody can get out of that. And if you don't tap, you're going to get your knee ripped apart. For sure. And that's the real problem with leg locks is that so many guys wind up with pretty devastating knee injuries. In the 80s, the decision not to have heel hooks in jiu-jitsu was for safety.

We do, we did practice, but the competition does not allow it. You got to understand that in the 80s, if you have a knee problem, your career is over. Right. There's no surgery that really would fix it correctly. Today is different. Yeah. You understand? It's the evolution of the medical side make possible for you to put a brand new knee over there.

Yeah, but still to this day, meniscus tears and cartilage tears, those are still huge. I mean, without stem cells, it's very, very difficult to fix those unless you get the meniscus tears and cartilage tears those are still huge i mean without stem cells it's very very difficult to fix those unless you get the meniscus like i had part of my meniscus removed on my left knee and then you see them in you want to train for longevity and you're going to understand too is uh i think some of those things should be kind of almost creating a pro league into the jiu-jitsu world. Because a lot of people, they get hurt before even they learn what jiu-jitsu is. That's why my only concern is the danger of all those heel hooks, leg locks.

Because if you get somebody who knows, he might tap or he might roll to the right side. Even though a lot of guys still get hurt. Yeah. But if you hold somebody who doesn't have much experience in one of those traps, it's for sure injury. They roll the wrong way and rip it apart themselves. Even if you don't squeeze, it's because they don't know what to do. Right, yeah. And that's my view of as an instructor today on my school,

you're not ready for legs yet. Right. Oh, I go to the no-gi. Don't go to the no-gi tournament yet. You have to learn first. You understand? For your own safety. And also, I want them to develop guard.

Because when we get tired, we pull guard. When you get tired, you lie down to sleep. You don't sleep standing. You sleep when you lie down. And jiu-jitsu is the same thing. You get tired, you lie down to sleep. You don't sleep standing. You sleep when you lie down, and jiu-jitsu is the same thing. You get tired, you're going to pull guard. And that's one of the ways I see some of my students in the tournament. They get tired, he's a top guy. Suddenly he starts pulling guard.

He's tired. He's already... And that's why you have to have a good guard, just to survive and rest to be able to continue. Were you surprised, though, that this no-gi leg lock game started taking off the way it did? I think because of the success. We have so many guys doing extremely well. And some of the guys that come from the no-gi originally doing so well,

now some of the guys that come from the gi world doing no gi they've been finding some challenges to adjust to that leg i think in a way you have two ways that simplify because if you get somebody in a foot lock or leg lock there we go and at the same time you complicate because you see a lot of scramble now and a lot of injuries. Yeah. Because every day, I understand, people don't want to tap. And it's a position that something's going to get hurt. Yeah.

But it's the development and the evolution of the grappling world. And I think it's amazing. Sooner or later, somebody's going to find ways to protect better and better and better and better. That will force people to move on. Well, you've seen that I think now with a lot of the leg lock guys against each other, they're kind of stalemate. And you see them winning by rear naked choke or arm bar again. They're not using their leg locks against each other. They realize like, man, he knows as much as I do.

Now I need more than that. Yeah. They're using them to sweep or they're using them to set up other things. They're trying to exploit other holes. Like maybe they concentrate too much on leg lock

so then they're open to arm bars or chokes. I remember when I learned in the beginning we have foot lock as the last resource. Let's see, I'm fighting the guy

and I'm not able to submit him. I'm going to footlock him. That's how we used to have in the 80s. Yeah, like a Hail Mary. Footlock is, okay, this is my deadly weapon. If everything that I do is not working, I'm going to footlock him. Today is the opposite.

My first shot is footlock him all the way. It's not working, I'm going to choke him. Yeah. You see so few footlocks in MMA. It's interesting, right? You see so few figure four footlocks. Because the danger also for you to get hit. Right.

Yeah. Sometimes when you do the footlock, your face, your arms are both around the leg. You can get a knock. You're not defending yourself. Exactly. What do you think about combat jiu-jitsu, Eddie's new invention? Man, I think it's a way for people to step up to reality and understand. And some guys make a decision, do you know what?

I might be able to go and do MMA too. But that's the real world. Yeah. If you fight somebody, that's exactly what's going to happen. Right. If you fight somebody, that's exactly what's going to happen. Right. And making people more aware of, okay, my jiu-jitsu for jiu-jitsu sport only is not going to work that well for this kind of a jiu-jitsu.

I have now to be aware more of my real fight. Yeah. And I think it will help more the evolution of that sport of jiu-jitsu to transition to MMA. For people who don't know what combat jiu-jitsu is, Eddie Bravo invented a way where you do jiu-jitsu with slaps on the ground. And you would think it's just, oh, it's just a slap. But no, a palm strike, really. I mean, you really can hit someone very, very hard with your palms. I mean, I can do that with my hand on a table and it doesn't hurt my hand at all.

But if I did that with my knuckles, it would it doesn't hurt my hand at all but if I did that with my knuckles it would really hurt. So they can smack the shit out of each other. We used to do that after we trained Jiu Jitsu

in Portugal Taparia. It's like a slap each other after the training. No shirts, yes. And we used to train

like that in Brazil. Oh really? Yes, to be ready. Again, we have no tournaments. Right. I mean, after the training let's see and we stand in train like that in Brazil. Oh, really? Yes, to be ready. Again, we have no tournaments. Right. I mean, after the training, let's see,

and we stand in front of each other and open hands, and there we go. Slap each other. Make sure you don't get slapped on the face, but on the end of the training, you have marks all over your body, and you still shake your brother's hand. They love you, but you're all over the mess. Do you still lift weights?

Yes, I do. How often do you do that? Two days a week. Two days a week. But I like to run a lot. I like outdoors. Yeah. I run three, four days a week.

Yeah? Where you're running trails? I did try. I don't know how. Now it's too hot. I don't know. Unless you go early in the morning, it's pretty. Yeah, I go like eight in the morning it's pretty very hot

even in the morning it was hot this morning when I went it's very hot right now but I like it I think I want to challenge my body always

to bring the best off the resistance because I I think I don't like to go and run the same street over and over again somehow your body

already get just to that right i'm always trying to find different trails yes this way is i cannot fight you know changes up and down the whole time yeah and but it's something to the jiu-jitsu is my excuse to do all of this right i want to go and do better all my students are getting harder. Of course. How can I switch that to make it not that hard? Right.

I got to do a little bit more than I was doing. Now, how do you mix up your weightlifting training with your jiu-jitsu training? Do you do it in the morning and then train at night

or do you do it after you train? Right now, I'm doing before teaching to the training. My intention is when I show up to the academy, I'm doing before teaching to the training. My intention is when I show up to the academy, I'm already tired physically. So that when you do train, you can be relaxed and just... This way, my challenge is because I'm physically tired,

I make the level of my students higher because they have a lot of energy and they're good too. It makes more challenge for myself to train with them because I don't have, okay, my energy. No, I have to purely use the techniques, the jiu-jitsu. The techniques must be on time. I intentionally do that. They're tired to make a good training for me.

And that's what I've been doing. I show up, and they don't know,, and hey, let's go and train. Then I can tell, man, I should rest before training this guy today. I don't know if he's getting there good. I'm too tired. Everything's at the same time. Next week I'm not going to do that again. So when you do it twice a week, how do you mix it up?

What kind of training are you doing? I work one day legs, lower upper body, and the other day upper body. That's it? Always, yes. So it's just to make you stronger. Just to keep the joints healthy and evidently feel the muscles. I think it's important for, it's like prevent injuries. Yes.

That's the main thing. Yeah. And I've been using a lot the Iron Neck stuff. Remember the guy from the Iron Neck? He sent it to me, the equipment. Iron Neck, yeah. I'm using that. It's amazing.

That thing's incredible. I've been using that. Yeah. It is. I recommend any Jiu-Jitsu guys. Oh, for Jiu-Jitsu guys, it's a must-do. Go and get it, man. Keep your neck strong.

It's incredible. Well, you said something to me once. I'll never forget it. I'll never trust your neck. I still do not. With all the strong. As you get to the neck, you have to be very aware. Start seeing little flashes.

After that, it gets dark. Oh, yeah. There you go. You see the little, oh, I'm dizzy. No, you're about to go out, my friend. Don't trust your neck. Never trust your neck. Yeah.

But at least you could train it safely now with the iron neck there was always a bunch of different ways where people trained that were questionable like there's a lot of people that don't believe in neck bridges they said it's actually kind of dangerous man our neck is if you see the spine it's so sensitive you gotta be careful when you work your neck in jujitsu we don't use our head on the ground to base our body weight. And I think that our neck is, again, is the maintenance of having your neck all well around. Because that spinning thing that you do, man, you work every angle of your neck. Yeah. And I do a very simple exercise.

I have this. I touch into a bar and go forward and turn sideways very smooth movement do you do the ray charles very very slow you have that bungee that keeps more or less tension yes yeah turn it sideways i love that machine or that that piece of training it was a great addition to all the exercise. Thanks to the guys because it's really, really helpful. Yeah, I recommend it to everybody. It's just for fighters that get hit in the head, it's so important to have a strong neck to resist the impact.

It's the same thing with the muscles around. This way the muscles take the first hit. Right. Just like you're talking about building strength around your joints by lifting weights and protecting your joints. Exactly the same thing. Exactly. So are you doing like basic stuff like curls and dips and bench press? Very basic. Different than the time that you're training for competition, which is in heaven, a lot of explosions.

Right. This way, just trying to maintain and everything else I do in jiu-jitsu. Some days I train pushing more. Some days I push less. Some days I just train in defense, some days I train, okay I gotta finish everybody today, or I gotta mount everybody today. You kind of make your training a goal for your training. This way you're always excited to do it. Right. You know and not having the same thing every day. Now I select, okay today I'm gonna sweep everybody. Then I pull guard and keep playing. My goal is sweep.

And some guys are very hard to sweep. Another day, I just want to mount. I can only finish people from the mount. And that means you kind of make different goals. And I think that keeps you. And again, my students, they are. Jiu-Jitsu is fun. Come on.

Sure. It's fun. You never know what's going to happen. Sure. It's fun. You never know what's going to happen. Right. It's always a challenge. You go like, oh man.

Then you realize I should sleep two hours extra. I'm tired now. For sure. If you really want to find out where your body's at, go train.

Oh man, why I'm so sore? I don't know. And Jiu-Jitsu will test you in every level. Now what about nutrition? I grew up Did you follow the what about nutrition? I grew up...

Did you follow the Gracie diet? I grew up doing the Gracie diet with my uncle Carlos. Could you explain that? Basically, man, the diet would be the foods that you combine. Right. Some foods, when you make their combination, you're not going to get what you're expecting from the food. And that's how we learn.

I eat a lot of fruits, lots. I don't drink juices anywhere. I make my own juice. That's the only way you can have a proof that is actual fresh and juice. And if you don't, very rarely I eat meat. Fish and chicken and turkey more often than red meat. I don't remember last time. It's been a while. But it's basically fruits is my, I love it.

Papaya in the morning, cream cheese and honey. Late at night sometimes watermelon juice and tapioca. I don't know if people know what tapioca is. Sure. Yeah, tapioca pudding? Yeah, not the pudding. You make, looks like a tortilla. You make that in a pan and it's really healthy.

Yeah, I was sure of that today. Making it in a pan? Yeah, it's like a powder. It's like a root. And they shred the root and you put it in a pan and as the pan gets hit, it looks like a tortilla in the end. Then you put a cream cheese, and it's a thousand times healthier than any kind of bread you eat in your life. Hmm.

I mean, things that are good for your body. But basically, fruits are my main thing. Well, you're always burning off so much energy. That's the other thing. Jiu-jitsu burns off so much energy. And evidently the lifestyle you have, you burn more than you eat. You're going to keep your weight for. I weighed the same thing for the past 10 years, the same weight.

Go up two pounds, go down two pounds. Go up three pounds, go down five pounds. Do you take any supplements? I take maca, turmeric, pounder mix and all those juices that I make as more like preventive things. And evidently learn sometimes I'm going to train harder tomorrow. I'm going to eat some carbs today. The carbs will become a lot of energy tomorrow in my training. And you base it on little things that you learn.

But for me, the main thing is to stay healthy. Right. There we go. I don't remember the last time I was sick. Really? I don't remember the last time. Wow. People have headaches.

Why do you have a headache? There are many ways of having a headache. You're not drinking enough water. Or you need too much sugar. I mean, something that you're consuming right now gives you a headache. Now, what about post-workout recovery? Do you use sauna or ice bath or anything like that? Man, the sauna is a must.

Yeah. I mean, I love it. I see you put a lot of things. It's a must. So good for you. You eliminate so much and your body is always pure and clean. I love my Epson Salt Jacuzzi. Yeah.

I sit there for, I don't know, an hour and just forget about life. Yeah. Feels brand new after. I mean, you have a lot of things that we should do to keep the longevity of us being able to do what we want to do. And stay healthy. That's the main thing. Stay hiking. Stay close to nature.

Breathe. Try to breathe good air. It's pretty hard in L.A., but you go up in the mountains, man. You feel like, oh, it's even on your mind. You already changed the whole thing of, and that's basically stay healthy. How can I teach or tell my student to do something if I'm not doing? Right. It's like you go to the gym and have two different coaches, one that looks healthy

and the one that is pretty big. Which one are you going to pick? Right. The one that knows how to get the way he is. Yeah, when you see guys that start letting themselves go and getting big and fat, it's very disappointing. Yes, it is. I give a hard time to a lot of people that I know, friends that let it go.

I say, man, it's not what you say. It's what you've been doing. Yeah. You know, don't do this. Then you're doing. Right. I mean, what kind of a, it's more about an example. Yeah.

People get tired. They get lazy. Yes, but man, you chose the wrong job to be lazy. Yeah. You know? You're a martial artist. You can't be lazy as a martial artist. Right.

You know? Do something. Sit on the desk and don't do nothing then. I understand. But you're doing martial arts and you get lazy? No, you can't. You become, in a way, an example for a lot of people. And that's why you make people do what you

do yeah there's no it's it's not an option it's not an option become not at all and as soon as i see someone who is doing that who becomes lazy and becomes fat i just i it's it's unfortunate you know it's unfortunate you're making a mistake i I try to understand, and sometimes I don't. I say, look, man, again, you chose the wrong line of work. Yeah. I mean, you're telling me that you don't like what you do, because if you like what you do, you're not going to be the way you are right now. And it's jiu-jitsu not working for you now,

which should be working right now more than ever. Well, that's one of the great things about you, my brother, is you've always been a great example, and you've always been a person who leads by example, by the way, the things you say, but more importantly, by the things you do. For sure, and I know that. A lot of, and I think we learned through the years

that what you say and what you do will affect a lot of people out there, and especially now in the social media, I get so many great inputs for people that I have no idea who they are. Like, oh, thank you for this. Thank you for that. Thank you for you to put a good quote out there. I think those little things have an impact in hours in a lot of people. And I can't forget that.

And, man, I love what I do. I never had a job. What? Do you have a work? No, I train Jiu-Jitsu. And the amazing things, they give me money to do Jiu-Jitsu. They pay me to do this.

Like, I can't be, thank you, Dan. You know, I never had it. You have a great life. You make friends every day. Yeah. You know, you had it. You have a great life. You make friends every day. Yeah. You know, you make friends every day. And you kind of are able now to help people just with something that you say.

Sometimes I have high belt students or even lower belt students that show up for training. And I learned that with one story my uncle told me. Uncle Carlos, he used to live there, and back in those days, he observed a lot of things. There was a time in Brazil you have a lot of cockfighters, and he has his regular rooster. Then he said, man, I'm going to make money if he's this rooster. I said, okay. I'm going to see how long the rooster actually fights.

And when I noticed the time, how long he fights, every time he's fighting, I'm going to get the real, the cockfighter, and start moving him out. And the rooster think he's winning. And he's been doing that for a while. Then he realized the rooster can only stay in a fight for two minutes. After two minutes, he runs. Then he goes to an arena and challenges anybody

there with his rooster. It's not made for a fight. To fight anyone there for one minute. And they bet the money. And for one minute, the rooster get beat up, but fought for one minute, did not run. Then one minute, oh, he got his rooster, hey, give me the money, let's fight.

He said, no, I said one minute. The point was, I have guys that come to my school and they're not having a good day. And I can tell that by looking to their face. And I start training with them. And I let them give me a hard time. And I go like, man, what's wrong with you today? You kicked my butt today.

And I can see the change that made in that person. And I use that to train a lot of my students. I'll give one example. Our friend Eddie, before he fights Hoyler, when he called me in, he wasn't in the best of his game and I know he could be amazing. On the beginning,

I prohibit anybody to give him a hard time or anything as he started building up. Then towards the end, I said, man, kick his butt. He was so good and confident after a few months nobody could even get close to do nothing to him said man you're ready you're ready for a fight but on the beginning

this was my way to work out his psychological to build him up he wasn't in the best shape he wasn't training said no you can't train if you're a student everybody does what you do you're gonna fight somebody who doesn't do what you do. You got to train with people that do what the other guy do. Right. And here we are. In three months, we made him a monster. And he did what he did in his fight.

We're using the same idea of my uncle telling me a story to make you start believing. And towards the end, I told the guys, man, get him. Nobody could get even close. Isn't it funny how much of it is psychological because when you are tired but you start doing well all of a sudden you have energy that's all in your mind and one of the things uh i try to remember who said that in uh we grew up in the fighting world. I always seen samurai, bushido in the war and have a lot of good quotes. And one of them was,

whenever you think you're tired, your opponent is dead. I always remember that until today. I remember it's a yellow belt. One of my cousins told me that, man, when you're tired, your opponent is dead. That keeps you going. Your opponent is dead?

He's dead. He's way more tired than you are. That's the time you have to push. Instead of trying to conserve? No, now push. But what if you're tired and he's not? This is the mindset. Then Jiu-Jitsu gives you the tools but makes you never give up.

You can be tired. We're all going to be tired in a fight. That's for sure. But you're not you never give up. You can be tired. We're all going to be tired in a fight. That's for sure. But you're not going to give up. How important do you think it is to do additional conditioning other than just taking classes? If you want to go and participate in an event, a tournament, training the jiu-jitsu you trained today, you're going to do well.

If you want to win the tournament, then you have to do more. You have to work out. You have to do your physical because that always involves your mindset. A lot of people, they get nervous because they feel they're not ready. Do you ever think that you'll have a jiu-jitsu school that also has weights and cardio equipment and things like that and maybe even classes to help supplement jiu-jitsu training i think it'll be a dream school for sure because a lot of people do not realize how beneficial that would be for them in general right not only for

jiu-jitsu because i keep telling people and I always put them in their minds for them to get better and believe in themselves. But when they do, those things are challenging themselves. If you challenge yourself every day, you're going to bring the best of you every day. If you do the same thing every day, you already know what's going to happen. Whenever you challenge yourself, you're going to bring something better and better. You're going to grow more better. You're going to grow more inside. You're going to start

believing so much more the capability that you have. That would be a dream school. I don't know any school that has like a real comprehensive gym, strength and conditioning gym

attached to a jiu-jitsu school. Jiu-jitsu school, I don't know any. Martial arts, MMA places do. MMA places, yeah, like all those big gyms.

Yeah. But a lot of things, like sometimes someone may ask me, and my thought about was this. When you go to MMA gym, and I think today, they're specific for MMA. I mean, they

train enough grappling for MMA. They train enough punching for MMA, which is amazing. But it's like you're going to a hospital. You go there, you have a general doctor. But if you need a specialist, you got to go to the school that is specific for that purpose. Striking or Jiu-Jitsu. Even though now the biggest ones, gyms out there, they have the best instructors of anything all together.

Right. Like American Top Team, right? They have, yeah. Ricardo Laborio. I mean, they have the best grappling coach you could have, the wrestling, but not all the schools are like that. Right. That's a rare one. But it's very challenging because of sometimes the ego among the instructors. Sure.

Who the fighter is going to listen to. Right. You get a lot of jiu-jitsu fighters that start training with a striking coach, and the striking coach has them convinced that they're a striker. And I think the biggest challenge for the MMA guys is when is the right time for me to transition

from standing to the ground or the ground to standing. And the ones that find the right momentum to do that they're the ones that are winning and i know my uncle hillary said man sooner or later they're gonna get your number i mean that's the mma world very hard for you to retire without and when is the right time to retire right yeah it's hard to figure out for many many fighters no it's a lot of the things maybe money issues or maybe i don't want to give up being famous or maybe it's a lot of things involved i should retire like no well we've been around for a long time and we've seen a lot of fighters fight long past where they should have retired that's when they can get hurt really bad. Yeah.

And you see, that's when the injury can be resting, be with him for a very long time. Yeah. Does it bother you when you see that? Like, particularly like older fighters getting knocked out. Man, for me, I think the people surround them should be saying, hey, enough is enough, you know? And I hope all of them and i think the way it is today is everyone is able to make good for their life would say enough money

that they can live well not all of them unfortunately that's why they have to keep fighting as much as they can but it's a very challenge i think is i have to understand is a short career you don't have 20 years fighting i have to understand is a short career you don't have 20 years fighting you have to understand is my body can take this much but after a certain point man then you can get hurt really bad um just so everybody knows on the wall the studio right there that's john jock machado's coral belt right there on that wall in the studio. It's really cool, man. You gave me that. It was an honor.

I only made 10 of those. One of them is right there, my brother. I know, boy. I got to be a special person. Joe Hogan, man. It's awesome. Well, thank you for everything, man. Thank you for teaching me jiu-jitsu.

Thank you for being such a great leader and a role model. And just thanks for being here, brother. I really appreciate you. Super, Joe. Thank you for having me jiu-jitsu. Thank you for being such a great leader and a role model and just thanks for being here, brother. I really appreciate you. Well, super, Joe. Thank you for having me here and now I can, people don't keep asking me,

hey, why don't you go to see Joe Hogan? I see Joe Hogan all the time and I think it's a great pleasure for me to be here. Amazing to see the transformation and I think in the

mixed martial arts world, in the martial arts world how important was to have someone like you that knows what you're talking about because I remember the first few days of UFC uh please UFC understand Joe Hogan was much bigger than UFC and I think UFC reach out to a point like that to have someone like you pushing and you have so many people that loves you that follows you and UFC was is you're the voice of UFC you know and don't get me wrong those guys out there but when you're talking and you have all those main fights there is very different than when you see the other guys talking about because I know the involvement that

you have in a martial arts and the knowledge that you have and it's really good to be here man and all these past 20 years see the amazing journey to follow you see you're getting bigger and bigger and uh be able to to see that from the beginning is amazing well thank you and i promise i'll be training soon as soon as this knee feels better i'll be back um and uh inzana, that's your main school. The Malibu one, unfortunately, was affected by the fires. But Jay is now teaching somewhere else in the Valley, right? Where is he teaching?

I think we have a lot of affiliations schools around here. We have one in Chatswood. We have one in Simivari. That's where Jay is, right? Jay Bezos? He goes there on Fridays. Yeah, it's the Kings. I have the one in Simivari. Kings Combat Sports. Fridays. Yeah, it's the Kings. I'll have the one in a second.

Kings Combat Sports. Yes. Yeah. And your gym, the Machado Jiu-Jitsu Academy, is in Tarzana, and you can find it online. Yeah, we've been there for 27 years. And now we're probably going to be moving around the area for something that we need more space. Unfortunately, unfortunately, at the same time. Then now we're not. Blowing up. wait till after this podcast uh we see yeah that's gonna be even more fucking crazy anything that comes out of your hook it gets a lot bigger for sure well listen uh

you have the best fucking school i've ever been to in the world and uh it's a beautiful environment it's a brotherhood and a sisterhood and that's one of the best things about it is how much it is like family over there. It's like everyone who trains with you has the utmost respect for you, and the way you are and the way you treat people, it rubs off on everybody. You really genuinely do make people a better person. Thank you, sir, and I'll see you back soon on the mat. All right, my brother. Thank you.

Thank you, Joe. Bye, everybody.