The Joel Klatt Show: A College Football Podcast - Big Noon Conversations: Big 12 Commissioner Brett Yormark on Expansion and his Biggest Win

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

This week on The Joel Klatt Show: Big Noon Conversations, FOX Sports’ lead college football analyst Joel Klatt sits down with Big 12 Commissioner Brett Yormark in Dallas. The two dive right into the big question surrounding the conference as the Commissioner outlines his criteria for potential expansion. He also details what he feels was his biggest win in his first year in charge of the Big 12. They discuss the current state of NIL and the transfer portal and the Commissioner details why he feels it’s been a “disaster” so far. Finally, Yormark details why he believes he is absolutely the right person to lead the conference going forward – and why he wouldn’t necessarily be a good fit at other conferences. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How has your background impacted the way that you view this position as the commissioner? You know, every commissioner's job is different and it needs a different set of skill sets. This conference needed someone like me, someone that was willing to disrupt, innovate, create, look at the conference a little differently, build its business and brand and profile, and I'm the right guy for the job candidly. Most influential people in the sport talking about the sport globally. This time on Big Noon Conversations, I talk with Commissioner of the Big 12, Brett Yormark. The Commissioner of the Big 12, Brett Yormark, joins us on Big Noon Conversations.

Thanks for your time, man. How you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's start with like a little bit of a look back, you know, because you've been now commissioner for about a year, right? Yeah, a little over. Biggest win of the last year, in your mind. What would it be?

Probably going early on the TV negotiations. Media rights. Yeah. I thought that was critically important. I was asked in my first media days, what I think about the TV landscape and would I accelerate our negotiations? Because we had two years before we effectively were at the table. And I felt it was like something we had to do.

I think we had to solidify our future, create stability. clarity for the members and our conference generally speaking. And when I look back on that, I think it served as a catalyst for everything we've done since. Because there's an opportunity cost to a prolonged negotiation. And the fact that we were able to get it done in 90 days, put it behind us and focus on all the other things, I think was a great boost to our future. Well, and then from my seat, it's stability versus instability. Because that's a hurdle.

There's no other hurdle that you can even look at until that. one is crossed, right? Because that sets you up for everything future looking. That's 60% of our revenue. You know, when you think about the conference landscape, specifically the Big 12, our media rights and our partnership with the ESPN and Fox is 60% of our revenue. So knowing that we have that certainty for an additional six years was fantastic for us. I'm interested to hear from your perspective because we bring up those words, stability versus instability.

Let's focus on that for a moment. How have you seen that stability manifest in your conversations in any number of different venues, whether it's college football playoff conversations with other commissioners or even the college football playoff, whether it's your desire to expand and continue to talk to other schools around the country, whether it's your initiative to innovate

across broadcasts, whether it's football, it's football or basketball. You talked about Mexico, right? Like, there's a lot of things, but it seems like the stability that was brought into the equation via the media deal is really the instigation point for all of that. 100%. It is the true catalyst. And I think stability, or I know, stability gives you a seat at the table. It gives you that voice, you know, that we certainly were looking for long term. And we've leveraged it. We've leveraged it to innovate, to create, In what ways? Well, I think it gave us the green light to really start thinking about the conference

differently, to grow it, to diversify it, to think about an international strategy, to create new IP, and to think a little bit more into the future. And when it does come to expansion, and I've said it more than once, I love the makeup and the composition of our conference today, but if there's something that is additive, you know, we certainly need to pursue it. And I think that TV deal gave us the right to. to do it. So it was a true catalyst.

It was the instigator, if you will, for everything we're doing today and moving forward. I'm fascinated when you do look into kind of the expansion crystal ball. What is it? Is it the partner? Is it the number that you want to get to? Combination of the two?

Put it into words from me about what makes the right fit? It's a great question. I don't want to say it's complex. but it is complex. We have guiding principles for expansion. Leadership is critically important. Cultural fit, geography, athletic performance, brand upside. There's lots of things that go into our decision-making. And when I first took the job, and I have said it quite a few times since, I truly want to be a national conference. I want to be in four different time zones. I want fans from coast to coast. But again, it needs to fit within those parameters.

Basketball is an important part of it too. And I've said that before. And I don't want to jump in. And I know this is a college, like I'm a college football guy, right? But you're, I don't want to say the only one. Because I know the other A5 commissioners value basketball, but they don't value basketball like you do. And you've clearly shaped a conference that moving forward, arguably, but I would even sit here saying as a football guy, you're the best basketball conference in America. Was that important to you?

You know, and why? Well, it's important to me because I think it can be a catalyst for a lot of things moving forward. I mean, people think about my passion for basketball, and they respond to it saying, well, there's not a lot of value to our media partners when it comes to basketball. But it goes beyond that. It goes, basketball can be a catalyst for international expansion. And it can be a catalyst for a lot of the different growth opportunities that, you know, we're vetting out. It's not just the TV deal.

Do I think we're undervalued? Certainly I do. Do I think there's an opportunity down the road to maybe decouple football from basketball and when we go back into that next TV cycle? I certainly do. That's an interesting piece. Yes. And no one's thought about it that way.

And I have a lot of conversations with Adam Silver about the value of basketball and how basketball truly is a global sport and the international flavor and the engagement. And I will tell you that from a Gen Z perspective, the demo work, going after, that younger demo, they love basketball for a multitude of reasons. And he and I spent a lot of time talking about it, and he's given me a lot of guidance, and he believes I should double down on basketball, no different than I do, for all the right reasons. Now, that doesn't mean we compromise football.

We understand the value of football. But if I can grow football and grow basketball, I'll be in a much better place long term. Let's sit on the growth of football for a moment. And, you know, I think that me talking, not you, the expanded playoff is so important for you guys in the Big 12. Because candidly speaking, with where the SEC and the Big Ten are headed in terms of their expansion, in terms of their media deal, they're going to soak up so much of the oxygen if it was only a four-team playoff. I don't know where the other seat was coming from from any of the other conferences. So the expansion, I think, is vital for the health of the game globally from a national perspective. So number one, do you view it that way as well?

I do too. I'm a rookie commissioner still. I guess you could say effectively I start on August 1st of last year. So I'll consider myself still a rookie. And when I'm in those CEP meetings, early on I was relatively quiet because I had so much to learn. and I still do, and I listen a lot. But when I think about expansion, I think it gives more schools a possibility.

They enable schools to dream a little bit more than they have historically. And for the latter weeks in the season have become that much more meaningful. And I do believe that a conference like ours that gives us more opportunities than possibilities. So I'm all for expansion. I think it was the right thing to do.

I'm surprised it took so long, candidly. Yeah, me too. But there's a lot of us. Yeah, I'm sure. And there's, but there's a lot of moving parts nuances to it, which I now understand, but it's the right thing to do. I think it's going to be fantastic for college football, and I think their fans are going to really engage like never before. Okay, so now the second part of that, in terms of the future, the postseason, and how it relates to the

Big 12, college football historically has shot itself in the foot by taking half steps, not really building something that is the best possible situation. So I'm talking about there was an old bowl alliance than the BCS, now the college football playoff. Now we've got this now expanded playoff. And I understand in the first two years, there's a lot of contractual obligations between bowls, and it's going to have to look a certain way

just in order to expand in those early years. But in 2026, there's a real possibility for you and others to have a vision and to build a postseason that is better for the sport. When you look at the future of the playoff in 26 and beyond, what does it look like to you? Well, we haven't spent a lot of time on 26 and beyond because we're so focused on, you know, the two years following this year and that two-year expansion period. But I will tell you, it gives us a blank canvas to your point. And I think we need to use a different filter.

and really look at it from a blank canvas perspective. And based on all the things we've learned, how do we make it better and more vibrant? How do we build the business and the brand and the experience both for fans and student athletes? It should be a whole new exercise. And I think our key constituents and those that are table

are thinking about it in that respect. And I think it's important to. It can't be what we've been doing. We have a chance to reimagine, to reinvent. and to make this thing as good as we want it to be. And it's incumbent upon us to do that. So this will be, you know, I'm going to put you in a little bit of a tough spot here. So, you know, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

But I've made the analogy. The bowl system and the college football playoff expansion are like Blockbuster and Netflix. Netflix did not consider Blockbuster when making their business model because they understood that Blockbuster was outdated. nor did they include Blockbuster on their board to say like, well, how can we still involve you in what we're doing? I believe that the bowl system and the playoff do not jive. Like, I just don't see it because the health of the sport from my seat is better if we move towards on-campus playoff games. Is that possible?

Do we still need that bowl system in the playoff? And where would you sit in that conversation? You know, I'm too new to probably having a strong opinion about it. I experienced bowl season this year. I think there's value to the bowl season. I think everything is going to have to go through an audit moving forward.

As I said, it's a blank canvas, and we've got to see where it intersects and where the fit is. Do I think that some of the bowls are dilutive? probably. Do I think we need as many as we have? Probably not. But really it's too early for me to have a strong opinion. Those are just early observations. And I think those at the table are going to have to make some tough decisions. I know there's a great history there in legacy. And it's not easy to move away from history and legacy. But again, it's incumbent upon ourselves to look at everything,

including bowl season. And how does it look moving forward? And does it create the value we're looking for? I'd love to get your thoughts on a topic that we've talked with everybody on these conversations about, which is the inherent, not problems, but speed bumps that we have in college football specifically, namely name image and likeness and the transfer portal. In and of themselves, I love both of them. When they're used in some of the fashion that they're used,

I think all of us sit back in like, unintended consequence, you know, in terms of tampering or inducement side of NIL and transfer portal. Where do you see all this going? And how would you like to shape it being in the position that you're in? Well, interesting enough, you know, I bring up kind of a professional lens to it, given my background. And when I look at it, I look at it as unlimited free agency, no salary caps. And then you have agents that aren't certified. Those are all problems. Getting student athletes to go into the portal. And about 40% plus of those student athletes that enter the portal don't come out.

That's right. There's no seat form. None. And when they go into the portal, you know, they don't know. if their credits are going to transfer or not. I mean, it's a mess. To your point earlier, addressing each independently, probably can do it. But collectively, it's just not working. It's a disaster, in fact, and we need to fix it. And I have spent a lot of time with my E5 colleagues and Charlie Baker, had made visits to Capitol Hill.

We need uniformity. We need some kind of federal legislation that preempts state laws, because there's 32 states that have different interpretations. Have you got to be on the same page. We got to be on the same page. And to your point, you know, the, when people, you know, created NIL, if you will, it wasn't about inducements, it wasn't about pay for play. I had an experience with NIL prior to coming into this seat.

When I was at Rock Nation, we worked with young student athletes and we provided them with some opportunities. So I'm a big fan of NIL. I think it's wonderful that student athletes today can leverage their name, image, and likeness, can create social media platforms, be entrepreneurs, but the right guardrails need to be in place, not only to protect the system, but also to protect our student athletes. And we're working tirelessly on it, and I know Charlie Baker is. And the good thing is, we're aligned, you know, especially as an A5.

And hopefully we can get something done. So I've said for a long time, I thought it needed to be one of two things. We either needed federal legislation or we need to collectively bargain. And there needed to be some form of players association so that you can negotiate guardrails that then everyone agrees upon. Or else we'll just continue to find ourselves in litigation after litigation after litigation because players will sue. But there needs to be. I firmly believe as we move on, there probably needs to be both. some sort of guardrails from a collective federal legislation to put everyone on the same page

and some sort of umbrella over the players where they're organized and not just so that we can put guardrails over them but also give them protections. This is what people don't understand is that there are hundreds if not thousands of student athletes and intercollegiate athletics being taken advantage of through NIL. They're entering into contracts that they don't exactly know what they're signing. They're giving away future earnings and perpetuity. These things can and would be solved through a collectively bargained agreement. Brett, because of what you just mentioned in your answer,

which was certified agents, you know, vetting out agents that actually deal with all of these issues. long-winded. Can both of those things happen, do you think? And what would be the time frame that they could happen? Well, we're working tirelessly on the federal legislation, and hopefully over the next couple of months, we'll have more clarity there. I'm not sure that we have to go the route of collectively bargaining to protect our student athletes. I think there's ways we can do that through federal legislation. Okay. Certifying agents, having more transparency. I think there's things we can do through legislation that will protect the interests of

our student athletes so that agents aren't taking advantage of them. There could be a cap in commissions that the agents are making and transparency in those deals so we know exactly what those deals look like. So I think there's ways we can get there without having to collectively bar And as we think about federal legislation, we are looking at potentially something that's more holistic and comprehensive. That will address, you know, those student athlete protection rights. Your perspective has been so refreshing from my seat looking at outside looking in, obviously. But for so long, people that sat in your seat, and this is not a knock, but they came up through administration.

They've been kind of lifelong administration people, if you will. Now it's very different than that. Other than Greg, everybody that's entering into these seats as commissioners have an outside perspective. Tony Petiti being the newest one in the Big Ten, an outside perspective, a strong media perspective and outlook. How has your background impacted the way that you've, view this position as the commissioner? It's a great question. Still have a lot to learn. But when I look back on my first year, I think many of my skill sets were transferable. You know, every commissioner's job is different and it needs a different set of skill sets. This conference needed someone like me,

someone that was willing to disrupt, innovate, create, look at the conference a little differently, build its business and brand and profile. And I'm the right. guy for the job candidly. I think it's been a wonderful fit. I'm not sure I'd be a fit to run other conferences candidly. This was the... Maybe too aggressive. Maybe too aggressive, which is perfectly fine. That's fine, right. But this was the right place for me. Yeah. And I'm not saying that the brand in any way, shape or form was distressed because it wasn't. Nothing was broken. But this was a conference that needed to get better and do things differently. And even during the interview process, I sensed from the board they were willing to pivot away from the traditional.

In fact, I'm not sure they had any other choice. Just on the heels of Texas and Oklahoma leaving, a potential upcoming TV deal, they needed to create a different narrative and profile. Even convincing a board like that to jump the media spot, that's a big decision. Yes, because most of them are very conservative. But they were all in, and they have given me a lot of latitude to move forward. That being said, I do realize, and I know my name's not on the door, I'm very transparent with our governance group, specifically ADs and presidents, and nothing we do doesn't get vetted out with them first. So as we move forward and do the things we're doing, it has the full support of all the key stakeholders in the conference.

I think it's so fascinating because when I think of the key stakeholders, right, the people that you work for and the presidents and the chancellors and. and in 80s. Traditionally, they have been a very slow-moving traditional conservative bunch, right? It's like trying to move the Titanic, man. I mean, those rudders move very slowly. There's a lot of red tape. And yet, you come in, you know, August 1 was your first day. You guys have been quick, you've been nimble, you've been aggressive. You started mentioning things like innovating within the media landscape. You know, how do we make our games look different, whether it's basketball or football. You threw out possible contests,

whether it's football or specifically basketball in Mexico. Have you been surprised at how willing that old school group of constituents has been to let you go out there and just start going? I have been a bit surprised. In fact, it's just interesting because a couple of my board members will call me up and say, Brett, are we moving fast enough?

And I'll say, we're moving just fast enough. It's fantastic. So, relative to my peers, you know, my other A5 commissioners, I am a bit surprised at the speed in which we're able to move and make decisive decisions. How beneficial has that been in this first year? Great. On a personal and professional level. I mean, I work best when I can move fast.

That's kind of been my trademark. And I've worked for great people that have given me the latitude to do that. Not that I was concerned coming here that it wouldn't be the case because I was convinced by the board when I went through the interview process that they were ready to move. But I was a little suspect. Sure. But they have been incredible partners for me. The board, the ADs, they want to disrupt.

You know, it's interesting. This conference has been on its heels for years. Even during the good days. And the fact that they can lean back now and put their chests out a little bit, everyone's enjoying it. They're gravitating to it. In fact, they want more. So when I think about year two in the post,

as much as we've accomplished in year one, I'm really bullish on year two because I'll be a better commissioner. I'll know more. We've got great chemistry amongst the group. We've gone through an organizational redesign, so we're staffed up, we're ready for success. So I think our better days are ahead.

So I'm really excited about it. I've really loved a lot of the things that you have pushed, if you will. I think that the broadcast can get stale in college football. For instance, let me just give me an example. And I'm not saying that this is absolutely going to happen to the Big 12th, but there are microphones placed on players in the NFL,

so you get really deep, rich play sound in the NFL. You don't even know that at home. That's what you hear. But you hear the crashing, you hear, you know, and that was a John Madden thing at Fox. and we dove into that. And that's why the NFL product sounds a little bit deeper and richer than the college product. It's because colleges have been reluctant to put those microphones onto the field.

I'm not suggesting that's exactly going to happen, but you've talked about trying to innovate and push the broadcast moving forward. You've talked about contests in Mexico. What are some of the things that maybe you haven't thrown out there, that all of us would sit back and be like, man, I haven't even thought of that. Listen, if you came to my office in Los Kalinas, I have a whiteboard. I knew it. I knew you had a whiteboard.

And I have a whiteboard of many, many different things. And I will tell you, I've sat. Can I come in. Any time. Oh, I love it. And in fact, I take a picture of my whiteboard at the end of every week because I always add to it. And it's on my iPhone. Okay, so when I'm traveling, I just pull it up and I look at it and I remind myself

of the different things I want to do. But I made a problem. to our staff that for the next couple of months everything that we're doing we need to make sure that we do it in a great fashion I don't want anything to be diluted because I'm spreading the staff too thin but we have incredible ideas to create more IP and to develop new initiatives things that have never been done in this space before that I know are very transferable that drive value for our member institutions and create revenue opportunities and I'm really excited about

But, you know, your point about innovating and creating and working with Fox on how we can further enhance, you know, the television broadcasts, we're focused on it. We want to be the conference of innovation, and we want you to push us as far as we can go. And I have a great collection of coaches that are willing to sign up for it. And we want to take a leadership position in that area. We want to take a leadership position in as many areas as we can. We might not be the conference that drives the most revenue. Maybe one day we will, but not today. but in all other facets of the business, we want to be the leader.

And that's our goal? Well, I will tell you, in this industry, disruptors and first movers get rewarded. And you've already seen that in your first year. I know we're thrilled at Fox to have you guys as a partner. And I'm sure I'll see you week one when I'm down in. That's going to be a huge game. I can't tell you how excited I am. And you talk about innovation.

Sonny Dyke said, Brett, tell me what we need to do. We do anything we can for Fox. So you've got a great partner there too. I love it. Thank you. Brett, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.