The Joel Klatt Show: A College Football Podcast - Daniel Jeremiah on Shedeur Sanders, Jaxson Dart & debating the #1 player in the NFL Draft

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

NFL Network’s lead Draft Analyst Daniel Jeremiah joins FOX Sports’ lead College Football analyst Joel Klatt ahead of next week’s NFL Draft in Green Bay. The two discuss the Quarterbacks at the top of the draft, where Shedeur Sanders could land and how they each evaluate Jaxson Dart as a prospect. They debate the gap between Ashton Jeanty and other Running Backs in the class including Ohio State’s TreVeyon Henderson and Quinshon Judkins. They also make their picks for the strongest positions in this Draft Class and which player’s tape has been the most fun to break down during this process. The duo also discuss what makes the top Tight Ends in this draft, Michigan’s Colston Loveland and Penn State’s Tyler Warren, such elite prospects and how to separate them. 0:00-2:07 Intro 2:08-4:01 Daniel Jeremiah joins the show! 4:02-8:07 Is Cam Ward the clear No. 1 QB in this draft? 8:08-11:22 Evaluating Shedeur Sanders 11:23-12:29 Evaluating Jaxson Dart 12:30-17:36 Is Jaxson Dart challenging Shedeur Sanders for QB2? 17:37-26:04 Who is the No. 1 Overall prospect? 26:05-31:19 Is Travis Hunter a better prospect as a WR or CB? 31:20-35:21 What makes Ashton Jeanty special as a running back? 35:22-43:17 What is the deepest position group in the draft? 43:18-46:49 Is Tyler Warren or Colston loveland TE1 in this draft? 46:30-51:42 How high will Ohio State RB TreVeyon Henderson go in the NFL Draft? 51:43-55:25 Underrated prospects Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He is incredibly accurate. He can put the ball in a mailbox. Like he has got pinpoint accuracy. Oh, I love this. I've not heard you say this. I cannot wait to hear this. I think where he is, he's further along on offense, number one. Number two, he wants to play offense.

Who is your favorite player to watch on tape? Stop it. There's nothing like it. Stop it. You're going to say this right now. You just literally still my answer. College football has never been better. Interest has never been higher.

Believe that we are at the dawn. of the Golden Age of College football. What's up, everybody? Welcome into the Joel Clad show. I am Joel Clad. And this show, as always, is brought to you by Hampton, by Hilton. And we thank them for their support, as always. A big show for us lined up.

I'm going to talk with Daniel Jeremiah. That's coming straight up. But first, just remember wherever you're at, you got to go and you got to subscribe to our YouTube channel because that's where all of our content lives. Even some of the stuff that you don't get just as audio, like we've got our schematic series, Understanding Football, that is up there on the YouTube channel.

So go over there and subscribe to the YouTube YouTube channel for us. Hit the notification button and you'll know exactly when any of our content drops. And then you can follow us on social media as well. Wherever you like to social media, we're out there. At Joel Clat Show is where you can do that. Okay. So we are getting closer and closer to the NFL draft. I'm going to have a mock draft coming up next week right before the draft.

So make sure to stay tuned for that. But I always, during this process, like to talk with the guy that I get to run with a little bit and be on the air with for the NFL draft. And that's Daniel. I'll be on the NFL network with Daniel, Charles Davis, Rich Eisen. So we'll be live from Green Bay on night one and night two. He obviously does a great podcast, Move the Sticks. He's one of the best in the business. So let's get to it.

And let's start talking about some of these topics that I want to go over with him right away. So without further ado, let's bring in from the NFL network, Daniel Jeremiah. And here he is. Welcome him in the legend. Daniel Jeremiah. I mean, this is like my, this is my favorite show of the year, buddy. Well, it's easily top 10 for me, you know, maybe maybe top 15. What would be top 15?

But I am impressed by your background. Thank you. Thank you. We've worked hard. You haven't grown much as a human being, but the, the set that you conduct your show on has grown tremendously since you've been friends. Yeah, thank you. I love that our director took a one shot of you as we were talking about our set. So that was great. We did this because of you. Two years ago, you ripped on my dark set, which it did look like in fairness. It was a little bit,

it was a little dark. But listen, all that being said, I really do appreciate you coming on. because I know this time of year, we were talking the other day, and you mentioned a couple of names that I'll be honest, I don't know. And you were like, yeah, I just got done watching tape. And I was like, whoa, I was like, you are in the deep, deep dives of draft prep. So thank you, man. I appreciate you being here. Yeah, it's the, it's the Monmouth type of year is what I like to refer to it as.

I should want a Monmouth tape over the last week. How are they doing? Competitive, you know, Alexis of icing us to that program. But yeah, no, it's that time of year. But I love getting to meet up with you when we do this little connection that we do on your show every year. And then, as you know, I mean, like there's nothing better than the draft. We have such a blast. We get such a great group and love having you on there.

Yeah. Can't wait for that. We'll be there live NFL network. I'll be on night one and night two with Rich Eisen, DJ leading the charge for us and CD Charles Davis. So we will be there on the NFL network live in Green Bay. Okay, let's get going, and we always got to start with quarterbacks. And this year is an interesting quarterback class. I wouldn't call it an elite quarterback class necessarily.

But let's talk about the quarterbacks, and I want to talk about the top three, okay? Because we have them ordered a little bit differently. I have Shador Sanders over Cam Ward, and then we both have Jackson Dart at number three. But if I just said quarterbacks top into the draft, DJ, what do you say? For me, I think it's the way I have it. I have at Cam Ward than I have a little bit of a gap before we get to Shadur. I think to me, two is closer to three than two is closer to one with Shadur being in a two hole for me.

And that's, you know, I think that will change and vary by some teams. I don't think there's anything, you know, total universal there. I would say the majority of people have Cam as the top guy. And I'm, you talk to a lot of the same folks that I talk to. But that's not universal. And I think if you just look at the 30,000 foot view of the. these quarterbacks of these top three guys. It's nothing like what we saw last year for me, at least. That's the way I see it. Yeah, all those guys in the top, what, 15. It was wild.

So, I saw six of those guys go. So to me, I always tell people like, the grade for me on Cam was the same grade that I gave to Bow Nix. So for context, that's how I view him. And I like Cam. I think he's got a, I think he's got a live arm. I like the fact that, you know, over his travels, I think you've seen him get better and better throughout his college career. Sure. You know, kind of carried that Miami team on his back last year. The defense was terrible. And to me, when I watch these two guys, the first two guys, and we'll get to Jackson,

and I love to flip it back to you to get your, the counter take on it. But when I watched them, one of the parts I did was I said, I'm going to watch three games on each guy, and I'm going to watch them back-to-back. Same day, I want it to be fresh in my mind. I want to see what I think the differences are. And on the plus side for Cam, when the, first of all, he'll challenge. challenged every blade of grass with his arm strength. Yes.

He will, and will help them out outside the numbers. And he is no fear. There is no fear in that dojo. Like he is in attack mode. So. That's such a good reference. You just,

you just like, that was very like underhanded. That was excellent. Because I did not love the latest season. I did not love the latest, the final season of Coburke. I was, I mean,

but we're talking about the, you know, pain does not exist in this dojo. so you're good. Yeah, but to me, I just, I thought there was a noticeable difference in how they each drove the football. I thought Cam can access more of the field

with his arm than Shudor can. Well, you know, so that was one part of it. The other thing I thought was there's times when you get free rushers on Cam, now he doesn't have as many free rushers as Shudor had for the issues they had in front of him. But I thought he was stronger and sturdier

where you can kind of see him pull through bodies. You can kind of, when space gets constricted, I didn't think he needed a lot of space to operate there. He just felt, to me like a stronger guy. So that was the main issue for me. And that's, you know, kind of why led me to Cam as my top guy. Yeah.

And listen, I get all that because I like Cam a lot. And here's one of the things that I really like about, you know, all three of these guys mainly, but these top two in the draft, so they've played a ton of football, you know. And I'm a big believer in that. We've talked about that at length. if you look at the starters that have won Super Bowls in this league, generally speaking, you go back to their college, you know, career as a whole, and they are wildly experienced.

And so from that standpoint, both of these guys have taken a lot of snaps. I really like that. Everything you said about Cam is absolutely accurate. The other thing that I really like about both of these guys is they each played behind what I would consider to be poor offensive lines at times in their careers. Wouldn't you agree? Even, you know, you look at Cam at Washington State. It wasn't great in front of him.

And clearly, we know the issues that Colorado had in front of Chodor. And yet, they showed a lot of toughness and grit and the ability to make plays even in the face of that. Because that's going to be a lot more, well, let's just say, that's going to be more similar to what they're going to be asked to do at the NFL level versus what, what, some guys do at the college level when their team is just so much better than everybody that they're playing in terms of their margin from their opposition. So that's number one. As far as Shador goes, here's the only thing I would say about Shadur. I mean, I know exactly how bad Colorado was before they all got there. And everyone wants to talk about Dion. And yes, that's a huge catalyst.

There's no doubt. And he built that roster. And yes, there was an influx of talent. But man, like, the biggest difference was that they finally had a quarterback. And knowing that and being close to that and seeing how high he raised the level of all the boats in the harbor, if you will, to me it was pretty special. And then there's this combination of surgeon and magician with Shudur. And you're right about some of the strength issues. And I think that there are times when he's retreating more than I would like to see him retreat. feet. But you get these moments when everything is right that he is surgical. And I mean, like on time on target, he's very accurate. And then you get these times when everything breaks

down and he turns into a magician and he can create time in order to make a play down the field. So those are the things that I would say about Shudor. Yeah. And to me, the two things that you can hang your hat on and I don't know that you'd find much argument on are, and I've said it like this. You can have the debate about Shadour, you can talk about this Saturday. You can't question this toughness number one. That's, you're just not allowed to. You can't watch that tape and question that guy's toughness. He did not

wilt after getting hit like crazy. Some of it, you know, even his own fault at times, holding the ball, which we'll get to that in a minute. But toughness, unquestionable. The other thing is when things are clean and he's got sight lines, he is incredibly accurate. He can put the ball

in a mailbox. Like he has got pinpoint accuracy. When things are there for them. So, you know, to me, the arm strength thing is part of it, just, you know, driving the ball outside. And even at the pro day, they didn't really drive it outside the numbers. No. And he throws a beautiful in cut. That's like, you know, it's one of the best throws that he makes. But that was kind of one of them. And then I think to me, and not a not to crush the, you know, the big 12, but the caliber of athlete that he was able to escape and elude in some of those games, I saw it with Caleb. I mean, even Caleb was playing to me at that conference.

at that time, which shooter was in the year before, there was more quality of athlete there. And Caleb couldn't do those exact things when he got to the NFL. And Caleb is a much better athlete. So I don't think that's going to be a huge part of his game. I think it's going to be more of, I think the magician's maybe going to be on the sideline. I think the surgeon's going to need a raise. Like that, that to me is what his style is going to be at the next level. Well, and that's, you know, my thing always when it comes to quarterback play, when I'm trying to project is like, can you be on time and on target? Yeah. You know? And there were times when he wasn't.

There were times when he wasn't. Love your thoughts on Jackson Dart. Do we think during this process that he could sneak into the back end of the first round? Does it depend on where Shadur goes, how high or maybe where he slips, depending on if he gets selected in the top five or 10 or 15? Yeah, you know, there's a look, we're getting close, Joel. When you get close, there's so much conflicting information that's flying around when you talk to folks. I've talked to people who think that when it's all said done, we might only have one quarterback going the first. round. You talk to other people and they say we're going to have three going the top 10, especially

with the Derek Carr information that's now out there about his shoulder issues that he's have in New Orleans holding the ninth overall pick. That's right. And all of a sudden now you would assume that New Orleans has a quarterback need. Correct. So unless they're, hey, they might be on the Spencer Rattler train, man. They might be taking that thing and going for a spin on that. We'll see. But when I get asked this question, I always want to say, can I tell you after the Giants pick? how many quarterbacks are going to go where are they going because the giants are feel to me like the should doer team and if for some reason the giants and you could make a

strong case of why they should take a quarterback because of the need they have at that position you can also make a case that there's two elite elite players in this draft and they have a chance to get one of them between Travis Hunter and Abdul Carter and then if that happens now I think Jackson Dart gets interesting because I think the giants are going to come away with a quarterback with one of their first two picks. I think Cleveland is going to come away with the quarterback with their second pick. I don't think they're doing it with their first one. So that's a perfect dart landing spot if Shadur gets taken up front.

Yeah. If the Giants don't take Shadur and then Shadur were to go to New Orleans or even goes to Pittsburgh or wherever he goes later on in the draft, my antenna would be up for the Giants and Jackson Dart. So, I mean, I would keep an eye on that. I do think it's a coin flip of whether Jackson Dart goes. in the first round. But, you know, the things I like about them, you know, you talk about them as a player and I love to get your, you know, your thoughts on it as well. But I made the comparison,

which was a little unorthodox, but it reminded me of Jalen Hertz's journey. Not necessarily the identical, you know, comp as a player, but guys that got better each and every year, guys who when you talk to folks around them, they talk about their competitiveness, toughness, their likability, teammates love being around him, and that was at both places at SC and at Ole Miss. To me, I thought his best football is still in front of him

with the trend line kind of heading in the positive direction. He doesn't have like elite arm strength, but it's good. He's not an elite athlete, but he's a good athlete who ran a bunch in the SEC and got a bunch of production there. Kind of buying the kid, kind of buying the competitive kid,

and buying the trend line. Jalen Hertz, I was there for his first training camp, Joel and it wasn't pretty. I mean, like this guy was not a finished product when the Eagles selected him in the second round, but the trend line was headed in the right direction and the guy just worked his butt off and made it made it kind of happen. So that's why I saw that comparison with those guys. It's so funny because you thought Jalen hurts. Do you know what I thought of? Because it was more of like a college comp through the growth. Jalen has grown since you saw him in that first training camp until now, right? Obviously, Super Bowl champion.

When I see Jackson Dart, I see, again, not a direct player comparison, but a trendline through college similar to kind of a Bo Nix. Yeah. Where, you know, it's kind of like there's flashes early. And yet every year you get a little bit better and you get a little bit better. And then towards the end, and Bo got to play forever, right? What did he start? I think it was 61, 61 or 62 games. And by the end, you're like, okay, like, I can see this.

That's a similar feeling that I have with Jackson Dart. Here's a one concern that I would have is with Bo I could project into and specifically, and I did, and we talked about this, Sean Payton's offense, right? Because I'm like, yep, this is what he was kind of asked to do at Oregon, and you can project that forward. I struggle with Lane's offense. Not that it's not a quality offense. It's a great college offense.

but there are so many wide open throws or pre-snap decision throws. And you know what I'm talking about, right? Like you watch this tape and you're like scripted winners, man, and they are all over the place, which is why Lane can be on the sideline raising his hands. Because it's like everyone knows where the ball is going and there's not a ton, not a ton of post-snap, got to be a dog in the pocket, control the game,

and you've got five guys, where's the ball going? And so that would be my only concern with Jackson, because I agree with you on the trend line. I do think he's going to succeed. I think he's going to get taken at worst in the top. I would say 40 picks in the draft. And at that point, it's about location and fit.

Yeah, no, I don't disagree with anything you just said. And, you know, the challenge I would put it back to you is, and I don't know if we, I'm sure we've talked about this. I know I've talked about with Kurt Warner and we'll have the conversation most likely on the air when the draft gets going. But outside of Joe Burrow, I don't, man, it's hard to go through the role decks of players that in college you saw work deeply into progressions. Like that's just you see it every week, Joe. Like it's just really not much of the college game anymore. It's true.

Bo, Bo Nicks, the accuracy was off the charts, but it was catch rock throw, you know, the whole time there to the point where it was like, gosh, okay, well, can he operate in the middle of the field? because it's all quick hitters and then some scheme winners down the field and over the top. It's, man, it's never been harder to, to, you know, project guys to the next level. If you're just going to look at the system and the scheme, because, man, there's not much of that. Who's that? Colorado. Yeah. Which didn't work out a lot for their offensive.

Holden, holding, holden, sack. You brought up in your answer there, talking about the quarterbacks about this idea of these two elite players at the top. So let's get into those two elite players at the top. Abdul Carter, Travis Hunter. I've got Travis Hunter as my top overall player in my top 50 list. I know you've had Abdul Carter there, but we both agree they're kind of right there one and two. Let me just throw it out to you first with, I'd love to just hear your take on Abdul Carter as being your best overall player in the draft. Yeah, and I'll, I'll start this by as we start getting to the very finishing touches. I've had Abdul Carter

through the entire process. But I've had a wayward eye, Joel. I've had a wayward eye through this process. Oh, are you peeking? I'm just peeking at Travis Honor. I'm not going to sit here in front of the judge and the jury and give the all-in case for Abdul-Carter because there's going to be some deliberations.

Internal, it's just me. Interesting. It's just some internal dialogue. Can I influence at any point? Yeah, I'm going to let you, I'm going to let you try and sell it. And I don't, I don't think I need much selling, to be honest. But I love both these players. I'll start just, Abdul Carter, what I love about him. You have an elite trait. Yes, he does. He can get off the rock. Like, he has elite, elite burst. He can turn the corner once he gets to the top of his rush. And he is a finisher. Now, he hadn't played off the

edge his whole career. So that's still, I mean, I still think you're, this is just like a piece of clay that you can mold. Like, there's more in there. Now, the other thing is, I, you know, because I hear a lot. I mean, he didn't work out. And he's been, he's been hurt a little bit. And, you know, okay, let's see. There's some, I don't want to say questions, but I don't think people are labeling him as someone who's just like all in passionate. Like, I don't hear people talk about him like that. And then I refute it and I push back. I'm like, guys, he played in the playoffs with one arm. Like, not only did he go out there and play, he dominated. I was just going to say it wasn't just that he was on the field. He was the best player on the field. I think he had seven pressures against Notre Dame. So I've heard that. I don't know if you've heard that, but I've like some people on the periphery, you kind of see like,

well, you know, how all ball is he and blah, blah, I'm like, well, if he was just about himself and making money going to the next level,

he ain't playing in those games with a bad shoulder. 100%. And here's what's so funny, DJ, is like, no one calls me. Yeah. And I'm like,

I'm around that program as much as anybody. And that I never had that on my radar. So not one time. To me and I go, you know, and I've always done this, just how the teams I grew up with and working in Baltimore, you know, spending time working in Philadelphia, I'm a front to back guy. And I think if you look at, people always ask about like,

well, what's the value this out of the other? I go, well, yeah, look at the franchise numbers. Look at the franchise numbers of what players are making. And that'll tell you who the most valuable positions are in this league. And it starts at quarterback and then it gets to the edge rusher real quick. Hello, Miles Garrett. Yeah, Miles. I was just going to say hello, Miles. So to me, it was like that I'm always going to, you know, value that over a skill player. Now, there's, you know, Travis being unique in all that he can do, he's a special, special player. And I have him right up there underneath Abdul Carter. Here's my moment where I thought where I had a wandering eye.

We did the pro day. We were covering the pro day. And this sounds so dumb to people, but I think you'll get it. So we do the pro day. He goes to the whole workout, which was a brisk workout. They wanted a fast pace. And he's, you know, and some of the routes he ran. He got some criticism because, like, oh, it's kind of like Instagram routes.

Like, you know, he's really taking his time doing all these different releases and almost look like an in one mixtape with some of the routes that he was running out there. But he's so dang athletic. He's got such elite ball skills. But it was the moment at the very end of the workout, we did a close-up. And it was all the guys there. And you see the guys with sweat on them and sweat through their shirt. That dude did not have a drop of sweat on his face.

And I thought this guy is a cyborg. Like he is. He is just completely different. And that sounds like such a small, minute, silly detail. But that was the moment where I was like, maybe this guy is so rare that I need to put him in the number one spot. Yeah. It's remarkable, I think.

Because here's the thing. And, you know, like a little inside baseball here. When we watch film, you don't watch a game. At least I don't. I go in and I watch, you know, like a defensive film or an offensive film or a player's cut up or a cut up of an offense or a red zone or something along those lines. Right. So when you're watching film, what you never get the opportunity to do is realize that that dude, he's on his like

125th consecutive snap. Right? Wouldn't you agree? Like you don't? No question. And yet, at any point watching either side of the ball, did you ever get the sense in the fourth quarter that you were like, nah, man, he's, he's tired. No, no, I didn't. The only thing I was trying to find, and I, I was trying to pull it up, but I, I wrote something over the summer on him because the only thing that gave me pause on him as a player was last year's Stanford game. Oh, like A.O. Minor.

A.M.M.A.M.O. Minor went for 294 in that game. Yes. And so I, when I was watching that, and I was just watching my one side of the ball, and then I turned on, watch my other side. So then I ended up going back and looking at it. And, and I ended up going back and looking at it. And I wrote it in the article, I don't have it front of me. The just ridiculous number of snaps he played in that game. I'm like, okay, the guy lost a little focus for a handful of plays because he was literally out there the entire time. And a little even more backstory to that. It was, yes, he got tired. He was also coming off of that injury. Remember, he got injured against Colorado State. And so he was just coming back from that. So that was his

worst physical, as far as fitness level, that was his worst physical fitness level that he ever played with was that Stanford game. And that was the only one that you could see him get, get tired late. All right. My thing, and I want your take on both sides, you know, this whole wide receiver corner issue that teams are going to have to answer. Okay, but quick on Abdul Carter from me. I've seen him since like day one at Penn State and been excited about him day one on Penn State. In fact, James Franklin and I, we were sitting on the field, their opener against Purdue a few years ago when he was a true freshman. And obviously, when a true freshman has number 11, you're like, okay, your antenna is raised. It's somebody.

It's something at Penn State. The sticks mean something. And hopefully they will, moving forward. And so, you know, we're talking about Abdul. And he was like, yeah, he's going to be a special guy. And then he said right there, he was like, listen, he's naturally right now an off-the-ball player, but eventually he's going to be an on-the-ball player. And I was like, okay, you know, we'll see how this goes. And that's exactly the trajectory that he went. Unfortunately, by the way, his first snap of his college career in that Purdue game, he got a targeting penalty. He was ejected. And I had built him up before he even got in the game. And then he gets in. And I'm like, oh, man, you got to watch this kid. Bam, targeting call. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh.

So I love the fact that he's got versatility in his bag. Because one of the the things that I value a lot, in particular from defenders, is the ability to be on the field and be impactful regardless of what you're doing personnel grouping-wise. And he can do that. He can play off the ball. He can play on the ball. They moved him around. I really believe, and I know this is a, it's a huge statement. And this should tell you everything about how much I love Travis Hunter, because this is how much I love Abdul-Carter. I believe he can have a Micah Parsons-like impact in the NFL. I think it's there.

And what you said just like quickly at the top about like he hasn't even scratched the surface on the edge, that's why is because he's done all of this and can dominate and hasn't even scratched the surface on the edge. And once we see that, you know, he's going to be a dynamic player. On the Travis, you're 100% right. He's built like a dolphin, just all muscle. He's just a muscle, you know. And he's a remarkable.

talent. I love his instincts. He plays both positions with incredible instincts, with incredible ball skills, and he's got elite quickness and suddenness, and yet he understands how to, what I would call like tempo players on both sides of the ball. And then here's where I sit when it comes to playing on each side. I think that at the next level, and please correct me if you think I'm wrong or you're hearing differently. I think that he's going to be a full-time defender because he should be because it's really tough to find a guy with those type of traits as a cover corner. And then I think you can slot him in very easily as a two or three wide receiver,

probably more of a three in order to limit 15 to 18 snaps a game from him. And you can do that on the offensive side. So he's a full-time offensive player as a number three wide receiver. But a number three wide receiver is probably only going to give. I don't know. You know, I would say 30 to 35 snaps pending big formations, short yardage, you know, whatever goes on from a game situation standpoint. And that's a way that you can limit him to 80 to 95 snaps versus the 125 that he was playing at Colorado. I'd love your thoughts on that. Yeah. So the conventional wisdom with two-way players forever has been,

you know, first of all, a conversation that doesn't get talked about is what meeting room is he in? Meaning going on at the same time, you're going to have to to be in one of the other. So he's going to have to major, at least in a meeting standpoint, on one side of the ball versus the other. It's always been major in defense, minor, in offense. You have a package of plays on offense, but you're a full-time defensive player. He's the first one that I've ever lobbied for the opposite. Oh, I love this. I've not heard you say this. I cannot wait to hear this. Well, to me, I think where he is, he's further along on offense, number one. Number two, he wants to play offense. He lists, he lists himself,

as a wide receiver who plays DB, not the other way around. And that's even at his pro day when they asked him about that. Like he was very adamant that he sees himself as an offensive player. As a defensive player, I don't think this is a Pat Certan, leave him over on the side and press, leave him on that half of the field and let him go. I think he's better playing top down. You mentioned his instincts.

That's where he is absolutely at his best, where he can see things, set traps, drive on the ball, and make all kinds of plays. I think he's still developing in some of the other areas as a corner. But if I'm the New England Patriots, he, I mean, he's coming in. He is going to help Drake May right now. And we've got Gonzalez out there on one side. I think they just paid Carlton Davis in the offseason. So I think it is going to vary by team how they how they view that. And then it was like, okay, well, how would you package him? How would you package him on defense?

To me, my idea, and I have not, you know, I had a chance of talk. I've talked to some defensive coordinators, but they're all the way this thing works behind the curtain. When you're talking to a defensive coordinator who's picking in the teens. He ain't watching Travis Hunter. I can tell you that. He ain't wasting his time on that one. So tough to have that conversation. But I would sprinkle him on some third downs.

Like to me, it's a get off the field down. Go ahead and get out there. It's a nickel guy. It's an instincts guy. Almost like a... So now what's coming to mind is like a Mikey Sainer still. You know,

and what he did moving, because he was a full-time wide receiver and didn't play both at the same time, but then moved to defense and was so good in the middle of the field for Michigan, and then has done a remarkable job in his rookie year as kind of one of those middle-of-field. He can play. He can play. He just showed a little bit of the ability to do everything there last year with Washington. The last point I'll make on Hunter, Joel, is, and I'll love to get your thoughts on this.

In college, it is, I call it like a C to shining sea offense. Like you, I watch Tennessee. I mean, they are literally spreading you from sideline to sideline. And the NFL is a bunch league. They are going to bring you in, and they were going to put you in run fits. So from a physical toll standpoint, I thought Travis didn't have to get involved

as much as a run defender. He's willing. He'll get guys on the ground, but you start playing against the Sean McVease and the Kyle Shanahan's. They're going to line in a bunch. They're going to leave you unblocked, and you're going to have to tackle that 230-pound

running back a handful of times a game. So I think the physical toll of it, not the play count. I know because people have made that case. You're going to play more plays in college. there's faster pace. It'll be easier in the NFL. Longer season, bigger guys, and they're going to pull you into the run game,

I think more so than you would in college. That's my take on it. Well, you are a very smart man. I had not thought of it that way. I thought that I had figured out this idea of how to limit him and yet make him full-time on each side. But I hear that. I will hand that to you. That's a good one in particular because of his instincts, right?

How fun is this? Like, we've never talked about this. Here's what's great about what we're doing right now is that this is exactly what's happening in NFL front offices all over the league. Well, I shouldn't say all over the league in those top few picks. This is the conversation that they're having. And someone's going to have to make an argument and win the argument in order to win him to their side of the football. And I do think that that's really. You know who wins that argument?

Is when Drake May, if he's there on the clock and says, yeah, guys. Yeah. He's going to be on our side of the ball, okay? Totally. That's exactly right. All right. I have a few more. And as I thought, you and I were going to go long. This one, we can be quicker because we both love him. Ashton Genty.

How high do you think he can go? I know he's, what is he all the way up to number three on your prospect list? Yeah, he started there and he's going to end there. I mean, to me, he's the third player. I think those two guys at the top for me, the two we just discussed, are in their own category. And Ashton Genties is right behind. that. He, you know, MJD is who he reminds me of. It's just, there's no surface area to hit on this guy. He's a natural runner. He's

instinctive. He's got balance. And then on top of that, Joel, and everything I've heard about this kid, like the intangibles are off the charts. Yeah, real deal. Real deal. I mean, he ended his career at Boise in the NIL era. Yeah. He could have gotten a million plus bucks last year. I would take the over on that. I would, let me throw something out at you. Let me play devil's advocate. Let me preface this by saying, you know how this goes in draft settings. Everyone's like, oh, you're going to go. You hate him.

No, I love Gentie. I think Gentie's phenomenal. Best back in the draft. Love this guy. You made the argument that the competition that Shador played in the league that he played affected your rating of him. Or at least his aspect of like magician. Of the translating, of some of it translating. Translating.

Yeah. any of those concerns with Ashton Ginti because there's not a lot of surface error to hit. And yeah, he broke a lot of tackles in the Mountain West. Oregon is in the Big Ten, correct? Correct. How did they do last year, by the way? They were really good, number one in the country. Okay.

Well, he did okay against them. You can go back and watch that. They couldn't tackle them. They couldn't catch him. You know, Washington State's a good program. I know they got screwed in the whole realignment thing, but it was a hot knife through butter through them. And to be honest with you, the ruggedness with which he compiled the yards in the playoff game, which the numbers aren't going to wow you.

But if you watch that game, he turned more minus threes into plus fours and fives in that game. You're like, and it was, I mean, he was a solo mission on that. Yeah. And it was the sole focus of the defense. It was a bring your own blocker day. Exactly. Because he had 22 eyes, individual eyes on him in that game. right so and like with him i you know the the level of competition obviously you always facted that in

but i didn't see there was nothing disqualifying from him in fact in some ways i've been i've been getting a more so on the usage like gosh he's carried the ball so many times do you worry that he's run down and i'm like that's where i like the fact that he wasn't in the big ten or the SEC sure it's not the same level of violent they're not the violent contact in that league you know over over his career that he would have seen in those other leagues i'm going to get to a couple of the guys that I wanted to talk about in another question. So I'll just throw this out at you. I do think to be that high, to be a guy that you've got to be able to catch it. And it's not that he can't because he played wide receiver in high school. He was a slot ride wide receiver in high school. So he can catch it. I think, and I've made this point before, his lack of catches last year was on purpose so that he could try to break Barry Sanders.

record. If you're going to have him touch it 28 to 32 times a game, if you're Boise State, they're going to be rushes so they can go in the rushing category so he can potentially win the Heisman trophy. They weren't going to have him run it 21 times and catch it 10 times so that he could be like an 1,800

and 700 guy. They wanted 2,600 or 2,700 yards rushing so he could potentially win the Heisman. So that's what I'll say. He had a lot more catches early in his career. He doesn't fight the ball either. No, sometimes you can watch a guy catch 10 balls. I don't need to see him catch a hundred balls to know if he's got natural hands.

He can catch the ball. That's a good. Well, that's spoken like a season scout right there. Best position group in the draft. Who is it? To me, I would say defensive line as a whole. Yes. I took a chance with this one hoping I was like, I want to talk about a couple of the specific players, but I'm going to pose it in this question and you walked right in. I love it. To me, and it's a mixture of DTs. It's a really deep DT draft. So start there And then defensive Edge guys

It's to me Like if you're looking at the themes of this draft One of the themes of this draft Which is going to be fascinating It has been fascinating for teams And I've had some spirited discussions And I've messed with some of my buddies Who are GMs

To just take the other side of arguments Because of where they come down It is a traits versus production draft man Like there's not many guys who have both And that's why this is a star A starter not star draft When you have the traits and the production You're Abdul Carter

he's a star. There are not many of those guys that have the traits and their production. You've got to pick one and you've got to gamble a little bit on the other side of it that's missing. So that's the fascinating debate. Where do you fall in that argument? I know, but please tell my audience. Yeah, I mean, to me, I just at the end of the day, I value guys who are good football players. And, you know, I joked about one player in this draft, the team was really, really high on.

And, you know, how it twitched up and explosive is. I'm like, I love twitched up and explosive. I love twitched up and explosive. But if you can't find the football, what the frick good does it do? So, I mean, that's why I was like, we can get into all the scouts. And I've got, I can give you scout terms and keep you on here for five more hours to want out a bunch of scout turns. At the end of the day, like, you have to be good at football, right?

Like, isn't that part of the deal? Do you know what traits get you? Potential get you fired. I have heard that ones a few times. Fired. That's what trades get you. Production wins games, you know? And I'm 100% with you on this.

I love the defensive tackles in this draft. A couple that I was around a lot were the two Michigan guys, Mason Graham and Kenneth Grant. And these guys, and what's fascinating is talking with three individuals that are now firmly in the league. And I've heard them talk about these two players specifically since they were true freshman. And I'm talking about Jim Harbaugh, Mike McDonald, and Jesse Mentor. you know, and so going back to those discussions, and I've gone all the way back, you know, you've got my trusty. Yeah, there we go. I went all the way back to some of those TV production meetings that I had with those guys.

And I remember, and I went back and looked at some notes, Mike McDonald telling me when Kenneth Grant was just barely sprinkled in and some packages for them and just getting on the field. And Mike McDonald told me, he was like, Kenneth Grant isn't going to be the best Michigan. defensive tackle, but he will eventually be the best defensive tackle in the NFL. And I was like, whoa, because they had Mason Graham and they had Chris Jenkins and they had all these different guys. And he said that about Kenneth Grant. I'd love to hear your thoughts on both of those Michigan players, Mason Graham and Kenneth Grant. Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of the discussion that we just had, whereas, you know, Mason's been a more productive, more impactful player during his time there. And Mason's up there in my top five players, top six players.

Same. Yeah, exactly. He's an incredible player. He is never on the ground. Like to me, if, you know, if the equipment guy didn't feel like washing his jersey, you never would have to because there's never a stain on it because he just plays with balance and leverage. You can see the wrestling background and how he plays. He is ultra instinctive and can find and play the ball. And I think there's more meat on the bone as a pass rusher once he gets to the NFL and they let him maybe play on an edge a little bit more. Let him get up the field. I think you'll see more pass rush from him.

But the player comps when I was looking at it with him. Kyle Williams is one that came to mind who was a great player for a long time with the Buffalo Bills. Same thing, never on the ground, leverage, strength, instincts. Another one was a player. I don't many people remember him, but was Luis Castillo who played with the charges with a second round pick out of Northwestern.

He was there with Jamal Williams doing, during those years, a really good player. So those guys, he kind of reminded me of. Then Kenneth Grant, like, you're, you're kind of, see the flashes, the, I don't know, did you call the SC? You didn't call the SC game. I did not call SC. Okay.

But that game was the game where you're like, okay, if I talk to guys, you're like, I don't see it with Kenneth Grant. I go, watch SC game. Watch the, yes, he, watch the first play of the game. He literally just throws the lineman down and tackles the, and TFL. And you're like, it's all in there. It's all in there. He plays hard.

he's obviously a big freak athlete. What was the nickname? Like the mutant or something? How about when he chased down Nick Singleton from Penn State? And so I hear the pushback I hear from him and I talked to a, this was a defensive coordinator in NFL I talked to last week. And he said, I've never seen somebody live off of running down a running back, you know, more than this guy.

Like I just don't see it with him. So he chased a guy 30 yards down the field. Like that doesn't help me when I'm trying to, you know, get off the field on third and three. So what I'm saying is, did he turn on the Ohio State? Phil? Did this coach turn on the Ohio State field? Those two guys, the two guys we're talking about, Mason Graham and Kenneth Grant, beat the Ohio State Buckeyes, the two of them. Well, yeah, and I think also the Ohio State, you know,

obsession with trying to cram the football into their two best players. I don't know. I know there's theories and I want to get anybody in trouble and I want to get you in trouble at all. But there are at least theories floating around that there was a pretty big hit in that game early in the game. And then on the quarterback in Ohio State was like, okay, we can't do what we want to do. Obviously, that team that we saw in the playoffs did not resemble anything that we saw in that Michigan game. No, you're talking about a hit that Will Howard took. I believe it was, was it McCarrey Page who hit him?

I can't remember. I just took a wicked shot in that game. He took a, and those safeties, dude, Michigan will hit you, you know, and he got whacked by one of the safeties going for a first down early and was not the same after that, not the same at all. It was to the point where, like, watching the game, and I maybe, you know, I love listening to you, but at this, I might have something else going on. I had the game on the background.

I think the Chargers were on the road was what it was. So in following the game, I didn't pick up on that hit. And I just remember watching the rest of the game going, why are they trying to attack the best two players on the field? That's the worst thing you could do is try and run the ball at those two guys. And then I went back and watched the tape when I was doing the guys on tape. And I was like, oh, gosh, dang. Like, oh, I think the quarterback might have been a little dinged there going to the rest of that game.

I well I mean yeah we could talk shoot I've got so many thoughts about that game in particular I also think I think Ryan thought he was I think that Michigan basically unintentionally rope adoped them with an awful offense yeah you know because that offense wasn't going to do anything and so Ryan was like field goal wins the game and all I care about is winning the game and so he played a couple of times just for a field goal and they throw a pick and they miss a field goal and in his mind he's like oh my gosh what do we and the trap kind of of laid there. And so we digress. Defensive tackles are very strong. I love Mason Graham. I think he's one of my favorite players in this draft. I think that that's probably the case with a lot. But there's other guys. Derek Harmon. Walter Nolan's a really good player. You're talking about Edge is where you get a lot of conversation about trait and production. You're going to have a guy like Mike Green from Marshall, led the country in Sacks with 17, has some stuff in his background from his time at Virginia. You know, you got the production there. And then you've got to

some other guys that came in as highly touted five-star players that had, what was it, whom am I thinking about, Shemar Stewart, four and a half, four and a half total sacks or something like that in his career, correct, in his career. So that conversation will be had. Another position group that I want to get to, if you don't mind, tight end class, because I love this tight end class. I was around both of these guys from the Big Ten a lot, and they are as high of, I think, tied-in prospects as we've seen in a long time. And I'm talking about Colston Loveland from Michigan and Tyler Warren from Penn State. Now, I actually have Colston Loveland, and I'm going to go first year.

I have Colston Loveland ahead of Tyler Warren, but barely. And I'm talking about barely because I love both of these guys. But here's my take on both of these guys. One of them exploits space with creativity as well as any tight-in that I've seen in a long time in college football. and that's Tyler Warren. And the creativity used in order for him to impact the game was immense. Just turn on the USC film. And you see all the different ways that he touches the football and impacts a defense.

You flip on the film or cover Colston Loveland, and he is in what I would call a more rigid offense that is not going to be as creative where he's got to create his own space. And I think Colson Loveland can create his own wins as a better route runner and technician via, well, via route running, right? The polish that he has and the fluidity that he has because they're basically the exact same size. So one player creates space and the other player exploits space, but doesn't necessarily create it on his own because I don't think Tyler is as great as a route runner.

So to me, what you have right here is you've got basically, you've got like the Gronk way or the Kelsey way, you know, and it both can be incredibly. effective, and I'm not saying each of these guys are going to be that good and Hall of Fame level of players, but I'm just giving you kind of a path of the two players and what I see from them at the college level. All right. There we go. There was my take. Yeah, I've said the exact same thing. I did this whole conversation on the fact that we have two trees. You have the tree of Kelsey, which is the route runners, which is the change of direction, quickness, which is the separation. Then you have the grunk tree, which is the bigger guy, what plays bigger, who's going to be a

runner who's going to be on the move, who's going to be an inline blocker can help you in that aspect and who's going to bully people when the ball's in the air. So he's not going to have he's not going to have as much distance between coverage as you're going to get with Levin. Loveland. Loveland's going to separate more. I have six and seven is where they are on my list. So I have Warren at six, Leveland at seven. They're touching each other. They're so right there. Yeah, they're both right there. Yeah, I just, it's what's unique about this draft. And some, and to be totally honest with you. Like one of the things that's probably, you know, not great in terms of endorsing this draft is three of the top seven players are running back in two tight ends.

Usually you want to be in a draft. You've got a crap ton of quarterbacks and you've got a ton of big time elite edge rushers and maybe some big time playmakers at wide receiver. This is a different draft, man. But I do think there's a lot of starters in this draft. Yeah, starters, not stars. That's the theme. I don't think they'll let me go with it in terms of the banner that I wanted to put on the set. But that's the, yeah, that's my theme. Should we, can I tell you what? I'll buy us a couple of starter jackets and we'll wear them on the set. I'll take a P.I.

is one. Right? Yeah. Dodgers lost again the night, by the way. Now they're here and or there. We're recording this on Sunday. By the way, right after. Screwed you on that.

That's fine. They probably lost again today as you're listening to this. The way you're playing. I don't know. Defense stinks. They may have. We don't know. Last thing.

And then I'll let you go. Who is your favorite play? player to watch on tape. And this doesn't have to be a star. I'm actually looking for something like maybe a little bit more under the weeds that you were just like, man, I really loved watching this tape. My favorite thing that I've seen in this draft is the pass protection tape for Trayvion Henderson.

Stop it. There's nothing like it. Stop it. You're going to say this right now. We have not. Tell me you, tell me, you and I, we did not talk about this podcast. No. No.

is that what you wrote down it's exactly i'm 100% you just literally stole the way the way i described it was when i watched something that i struggle to find the right words to describe what i'm seeing that i'm creating i'm creating new ways of describing something and i've seen him we used to always talk about it to yard sale right you know that was the that was when you fit somebody up in the hole and it's like earpad goes flying and you know it's just like it's like we just call it a yard Stale, that was a big hit. With him, I'm like, it looks like if you just slow it down, it looks like the matrix. When he hits guys, you just see like the slow motion of like the

arms flailing, the feet up in the air. Like he is, he is an animal in past protection. And there's so few guys in college that are good at it. Shoot, there's not that many guys in the NFL that are good at it. He's one of the best past protecting running backs I've ever evaluated. I was so excited to give that take. This is incredible. This is why we get along so well. This is why we get along. Okay, I'll give some people some examples

so that if you want to go check it out, you can go check it out. There is a highlight real catch against Michigan State for Jeremiah Smith on the sideline. He goes one-handed. I mean, it's an epic catch, right? The only reason Will Howard gets the ball off

is because Travion is on the back. side of the protection, absolutely in the chin of the blitzer. Just pow! And Howard has time to throw the ball down the field. There's a play against Penn State that we couldn't even replay in the broadcast. This is inside, no, this is inside the broadcast, right? So this is what people love. Okay. As the play is going on, I'm telling the producer what I want to talk about during the play. okay, I'm in the talkback. I can see it pretty quickly. I've done this for a long time.

Like, I can see what the play's ending is going to be, and they ran kind of a quarterback sweep-ish, like power. And Howard's going to score. Or at worst, he's going to be inside the two, right? So it's either a touchdown or he's going to be inside the two-yard line. But what I saw is Travion absolutely dismisses a Penn State player on the lead block of this of this run. So I'm in, and Will Howard gets hit and fumbles it out of bounds.

So now we've got to show the replay of like, well, was it a fumble or was it not a fumble? And then we're in review and the whole time, DJ, I'm literally hitting the talkback button. And I'm like, the block, I want to show the block. And we never got to it. We never showed, we never replayed the block. It never became a thing except for on film. So the next week, I brought my iPad, plugged it into the big monitor for our production meeting for the rest of our crew. And I was like, guys, this is what I wanted to show America.

That's fantastic. But yes, Trevion Henderson and his past protection. I also think that Quintzion Judkins took his example and was an excellent blocker more so than he was at Ole Miss. He was a lead blocker for them. A lead blocker a lot. That's exactly right. And I think those two guys might be getting. overlooked a little bit from a running back perspective because they shared carries. And then here's

the other thing, one layer deeper if you peel the onion back, once Josh Simmons, the tackle for Ohio State got injured, that was a shell of itself as an offensive line. Then McLaughlin got hurt at center and they really couldn't run the football, which those two guys would have had far different years if they would have just been focal point backs behind a decent offensive line. And I think that it might have been a bit of a different conversation for each of them, maybe, going into the draft if they would have had that production. But they weren't able to because they shared it. And then the O line got banged up. But yes, that was my favorite tape as well.

Trayvion Henderson. Oh, what are some of the other ones I debated? Do you have one other one? So we're not just agreeing on that one? Yeah. You know, I've got some, if I want to go in a deep cut, like a guy who I think is just criminally underrated. and look how much we're going to be talking about third round safeties in terms of like guys that get you super fired up. But Craig Woodson from Cal is a safety there who's smart, productive.

He doesn't miss tackles. He just, he's one of those guys when you're kind of going through a list of 20 safeties and you know who the top guys are going to be and he's not really getting any buzz or attention. And I'm watching him. I'm like, hold on. Like let me call my buddy at Cal. I call him up and I'm like, tell me about this kid. He's like, oh, he's a smart. He's a great leader.

You know, all the intangible. stuff checks out. So I'm like, well, what's the deal? Like, did people not think this guy's? Well, he ended up running 4-4-5. So yeah, yeah, he's plenty of fast enough. So I've got smart, tough, takes the ball away, doesn't miss tackles, ran in the mid-4s. I'm like, guys, what are we missing here? What's wrong with this kid? What are we doing? You know what he is? He's a starter jacket. That's what he is. He has a starter jacket. That's how we're going to start discussing some of these guys. What is he's a starter jacket? Can we get a deal? Can we, I mean, I think we can get a deal? You know, um, he, he, he, he's, he, he's a deal? You know, um, he, he, he, he, he,

He reminds me a little bit in that respect. Remember Fuller a few years ago coming out of Ohio State, that star-loaded defense? No one talked about Fuller. Guess who comes out of camp as a starter and basically a captain for the Chargers? Fuller. Yeah. A good player. Really good player.

Listen, I appreciate you being on. I took up more of your time than I told you I was going to. So I appreciate that, my friend. And for those of you that I hate doing this in front of them, DJ is the best at what he does in our business. That goes without saying. But he's also probably the best person I know in this business. And so, like, listen, man, I think the world of you as a human and as a man and as a husband and father, you do incredible work. And I'm really thankful that you come on every year and we get to chop it up about the draft.

Well, everything right back at you. I've always enjoyed our time together. You're really one of my best friends in the business. And love talking ball with you. I feel like we get to scrimmage. Like a thought scrimmage, you're like, might be my favorite person to do a thought scrimmage with. And I think that's what we did here today.

But I will tell you this. Just a reminder, you've been doing this several years now on the draft front. But, you know, the pace goes pretty quick. And if you're going to drink as much water as you've got next year right there on the set, we're going to be three wide instead of four wide there and we're going to be in some trouble. So let's make sure that you use a restroom if you're going to be consuming that much water before the draft. That's all I'm saying. I'm just looking at it.

Like a big brother. That's all. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I'll see you in Green Bay, bud. See you, buddy. All right. There he goes.

Daniel Jeremiah, make sure to check him out not only on the draft with me on the NFL network, but his podcast. Check out Move the Sticks. It's one of the best podcasts out there. He and Bucky Brooks do that one. So again, go check that one out if you want more depth about the NFL draft. That's going to do it here for the Joel Clat Show. We'll have more coming up next week here before the draft. We'll get one more mock draft before I head out to Green Bay.

And we actually get this thing going as the 2025 NFL draft is, man, it is right around the corner. So we'll get you all squared away before that happens. Remember to follow us on social media. media wherever you like to social media at Joel Clat Show. You can follow us there. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube. You can hit that notification button and you know you'll you will know when everything drops right there and leave a comment below. That would be awesome. So until then, have a great weekend and we'll see you with our last mock draft next week.