The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 150. Greenlights (and Darkness) | Matthew McConaughey

Episode Date: January 10, 2021

Matthew McConaughey (actor, producer, and author of New York Times Best Seller "Greenlights") sits down with Jordan Peterson to talk about Matthew’s new book, his upbringing, his relationships with his mother and father, his journey to being at peace with his fame, what it’s like to play malevolent or dark characters in movies or on television, and a surprising satirical review of Greenlights. Find Matthew McConaughey on Twitter @McConaughey and on Instagram @officiallymcconaughey and basically anywhere. Check out his new book Greenlights, which has sold over 1 million copies, available at many different retailers. Thank you to our sponsors:Helix Sleep - for up to $200 off all mattresses and 2 free pillows, visit: Helixsleep.com/JORDANSmartAsset - to receive your free Personalized Retirement Planning Report, visit: SmartAsset.com/Jordan-For advertising inquiries, please email [e-mail]

Welcome to season four episode one of the Jordan B Peterson podcast. I'm Makayla Peterson. Dad is doing interviews. I Dealy his podcasts going forward will all be new interviews, but we may revert back to some old pre-recorded stuff from time to time. Here's to a new year. He's kicking off the new year with none other than Matthew McConaughey Amazing actor and now best-selling author. He sold over a million copies of Green Lights, a memoir I quite enjoyed, very humble, funny, and has incredible stories in there if you want to check it out. This episode is brought to you by Helix, the place my mattress is from. If you like I haven't spoken about Helix in ages, I love this mattress.

Okay, here's some good sales things. Can't sleep because 2021 didn't magically fix 2020. Tossing and turning because aliens might be a thing now. That's all I've got for salesy stuff. He looks has your back. Ah, there's a pun too. He looks as you covered for your mattress needs. They have a comfy mattress I've slept on and I'm picky.

They have a quiz that takes just two minutes to complete and matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. I like medium mattresses and I sleep on my side squishing my face. I've been told that causes wrinkles, but hey. So I have their Helix Midnight Lux hybrid mattress, which GQ called the most comfortable mattress they've tried, and given GQ's interview with Dad, we know how trustworthy they are. T-minus one month until I'm not the Ad reader here. I love my mattress though.

They were awarded the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020 by GQ and Wired magazine. Go to helix sleep.com slash Jordan. They have a 10 year warranty and you get to try it out for a hundred nights risk free. They'll even pick it up for you if you don't love it. Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at helix sleep.com slash Jordan. That's helix sleep.com slash Jordan for up to $200 off and two free pillows, two free pillows. That's better than the last deal guys. Thank you, helix. This episode is also brought to you by smart asset. Asset helps you find financial advisors.

We use a financial advisor. I know initially you think why pay money to save money, but that's how businesses work in part, right? You can't do everything yourself. Statistically, people who work with finance advisors end up with 15% more money to spend in retirement on average. Thanks to Smart Asset, the service that over half a million people have trusted to help find an advisor. There's a free and easy path to help you find greater financial peace

of mind. You start by taking Smart Asset's short quiz. Within minutes, they match you with three pre-screen fiduciaries, which is a fancy word for a trustee, but listeners of this podcast don't need me explaining fiduciary, do they? Between you and I, I had to Google it. It means trusty, moving on. You get matched with three pre-screen fiduciaries, each legally obligated to act in your best interest and each willing to do a no commitment financial consultation. Legally obligated, that's my favorite way to get people to like me. Continuing to move on, they'll also send you a free personalized retirement planning guide with actionable advice,

so you can feel confident in your next steps. To receive your free personalized retirement planning report, go to smartasset.com slash Jordan. Your report will provide personalized insights on your retirement readiness. So visit smartasset.com slash Jordan today. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and subscribe. I hope you enjoy your week. So today I have the good fortune of speaking with Mr. Matthew McConaughey, who's one of America's most recognizable actors, and I guess according to his peers, also one of America's best actors, of America's best actors as he's won an Academy Award and multiple other awards. And we started to communicate about a year ago and he's also been on my daughter's podcast. And Matthew recently wrote a book, Green Lights, which we're going to talk about today. I've read that and I'm looking forward to discussing it. There's all sorts of things

I want to talk to Matthew about and so hopefully we'll have a stimulating conversation. That's my guess. So let's start with, well we can start with whatever you want to start with, but let's start with the book, I think. Tell me why you wrote it and when you wrote it and what you want people to know about it. Yeah, so I've been keeping journals since I was 14 years old. And so I guess starting 15 years ago, I always carried this treasure chest full of the journals I've been keeping

and they were feeling off that treasure chest. And I would take it with me to any place that we went for an extended amount of time, put it over there to the right of my proverbial desk and go, have it there because if you get the itch and you get some time, I dare you to go on that treasure chest and see what's in there. Well, I've threatened to open up that treasure chest and see what those journals held for the past 15 years. Didn't have the courage really to open it up, didn't want to make the time to go in there

because I was intimidated of looking back at 50 years or having many years of my life. I'm not one for really liking to look back over my shoulder. I'm somebody who likes to, you know, I'm still someone who, rather, enjoys making the sandwich more than eating it. Actually, I like making my movies more than I even like watching them. I like doing things, moving on, and heading forward. So you must have had some idea too when you were making those journals, at least in principle, that you owed an obligation to yourself at some point to look back over them.

And I can see that that would be intimidating because you're creating a task for yourself, a task of reconsideration and contemplation, I suppose. Well, my excuse was, oh, when I'd come below open them up and if there's something worth sharing, she'll do it, which was a huge thing in martyrdom, you know, if there's something worth it. So I, maybe it was coming across 50, unconsciously, I didn't think about 50 as a number of a time to be retrospective, but I had some time on my hands

and I had read an article in the New York Times that a young man had written, and I liked the article, I go, oh, this guy gets me in a way that was first article I read where he had weaved all the different times of my career life into a thread instead of sort of like sin. He was this thin and now he's this and this thin and now he's this. So he'd strung them all together and I like to style a writing and I asked him to come on and be a ghost

writer for a book. We met one time. It was a good meeting. We thought it was going to be a book, a little hard-backed book that you could put on the back of the toilet, that every college could take to school and could open it up. Any page may be read a truthism, a truthism, or a bumper sticker or something, and have a little aspiration ahead about their day. Well, the New York Times pulled him off because evidently they weren't allowing other writers to work with celebrities. And just as he got pulled off, and I was in the room, my office with Camilla, my wife, I said, I think I need to find a new ghost rep. And I stopped, at the same time she stopped.

And she said, you know what this means. I'm like, yeah, I do know what it means, which is I need to go off and write it myself. So she said, I packed up all the journals. She said, don't come back until you got something. And I headed off with 15 gallons of water. I don't know how many pounds of red meat and my favorite libation. And I went away to the desert.

The first 12 days were sort of no electricity me with my journals, no cell reception, nothing like that. I wanted to be forced with nothing but my past and find some entertainment in that at least. And I feared being embarrassed, I feared being feeling ashamed, and I feared seeing a arrogant little SOB that I was in the past. And I feared seeing a arrogant little SOB that I was in the past and I crossed all those

things in looking back at my last 50 years. But what I noticed was that the things that a lot of things I thought I'd be embarrassed about, I giggled at. A lot of things I thought I'd be ashamed about. I had already forgiven myself for or now forgave myself for and a lot of the times where I wasn't arrogant little SOB. What I realized is the times where I wasn't arrogant little SOB, what I realized is that if I wasn't the arrogant little SOB at that time, I may not have had the confidence to put myself in a situation to get absolutely humiliated and humbled.

So I sat down with the journals. I remember thinking going into thinking it was gonna be more academic, thinking that that's what it was. going into thinking it was going to be more academic, thinking that that's what it was. That's what it was. After day five, I realized, no, there's actually more poetry in here and stories to tell than any academia. So I backed off and said, let's just see what the journals reveal themselves to be. And I ended up with eight stacks of all the journals. I said, where are there some themes? At a big stack of stories, big stack of people, big stack of places,

big stack of prescribes, big stack of poems, prayers, and bumper stickers. So at these eight stacks, I said, okay, now let's sit through those and see if we find a central theme. And that's where green lights came from. I found that I had engineered green lights in my life through responsibilities taken yesterday, which bore me freedom today. I found that I'd gotten just plum. I have no reason why I could portion landed in my lap. There was no reason why, but I said,

well, let's make some rhyme out of this and do something with it. I found that also a lot of my yellow and red lights, those things that we don't really like that slow us down or make us stop, all had lessons that they revealed to me, which then enhanced made them green lights, or at least gave them green light assets. And then I also found that that the art is sort of in approaching the whole life. All right, so we've reestablished ourselves in a wind-free zone.

So look, one of the things you struck me as an intensely likable character as a consequence of what you revealed in your book. I mean, I kept thinking it would be a pleasure to spend time around this man. And I certainly saw no sign of arrogance in it. I saw a lot of thankfulness and a conscious thankfulness and I think implicit thankfulness as well. And a lot of love for your family, your parents

and your current family and gratitude for that as well. And also one of the things that struck me too was your integrity and decision making with regards to your career. You talked about taking a break after being somewhat typecast in romantic comedies. I mean, very successfully typecast. And so there's nothing negative about that, but feeling that you had taken that as far as it could be taken, yes, productively and creatively. And and then took a risk of really being bounced out of the system. I mean, one of the things I think that people perhaps don't understand about a society or a situation as intensely competitive as Hollywood is that it's

virtually impossible to be successful there and the probability that you'll fail even if you are successful is extremely high because a competition is beyond belief. No help wanted signs. No definitely not and so if you decide to do something like think, well, I've been successful in romantic comedies, but I don't want that anymore, you're throwing away something that's virtually impossible to attain, and then to imagine that you might recreate yourself in a different guise and be successful. It's a big risk. You see this often when actors fail to make the transition from television to to the big screen. And

that happens far more often than it doesn't happen, even if they have a very successful TV career. So, all of that was extremely interesting. Now, okay, so you were out in the desert writing your book. How long did it take you to sort through of the material? I went off in the solitude five different times for 10 to 12 days a piece. The first trip out was to the desert for the first 12 days. And that was basically to see what I had.

I came back from that feeling like I had something that was personal, that might be worthy of being between two hardback covers. I remember writing early on going, okay, now you're gonna have a lot of people that are gonna buy this book, even if it's the words or crap on the page because of who you are, Mokane.

And I said, you're gonna have a lot of people who are not gonna purchase this book, even if what you put on the page was awesome because you're a math mechanics. I remember saying to myself, one of the first things I wrote down, I was like, the words on the page need to be worthy of being put on the page if they were signed by anonymous, but at the same time need to be words that only

mathematics I could have written. And that was going to my little bubble. Because this is not about, you've read, it's not about a celebrity book. No, in fact, there's very little in it that's celebrity like. I was actually struck by how infrequently you made reference to your, to the mill you that you inhabited while you were, while you've been pursuing your career as an actor, there's no celebrity gossip in it. It's very, it's family centered and very intimate. gossip in it. It's very, it's family centered and very intimate. I actually, I actually wanted, it left me wanting to know more about your career. And so we can also talk about that today. Flash that out. But so that was quite remarkable for, you know, a celebrity memoir, let's say,

it's a terrible way of phrasing it. A memoir by someone who happens to be a celebrity. Yeah. Well, it wasn't a celebrity memoir. It was an autobiographical meditation, I would say. Okay, I heard. I like that. So I went away.

I went away. I came back the first 12 days. I was like, okay, I think I got something. And then I'd come back, handle my honeydews at home, get everything back, make sure I didn't fall too much in the deficit of being a father and a husband back home. And then as soon as I could head off again, I was fortunate to have a wife

who was like, get out of here each time. You know, when I came back, you could tell how, you know, the first 12 days were like a purge. I mean, I came back and no family like saw me. I mean, I came back and no family like saw me. I mean, I came back shedding tears. I had just sort of gone back and looked at 50 years of my life and had them down and all of a sudden it was crying and they were too much joy.

This love story that I was seeing and to face certain things that I looked at in the past or forgotten the past or thought I forgot, but noticed that actually I'd remembered was all, I was a very earth shaking. My floor was moved in a good way. Yeah, well that's great that it was moved in a good way, you know, I mean, that's a lovely thing to have happened to you when you're 50 and looking back. Yes, and then four other trips. So 52 total days, I was in solitude, and then the next year and a half was basically editing it.

And, you know, I didn't have as many of the stories in there early, which I would say served as sort of the narrative backbone throughout that string the whole piece together. intermittently and they're output a poem, a free scribe, a prayer or something that we either call back. I looked at them in like a movie. It's like they're a flashback or a flash forward. And can they coming out of a story, tell the reader, oh, this is how I saw the situation that you just read, or can it propel you into the next story? Because the story, the story is really caught more chronological, but taking from four years old to 50. And I didn't have as many of the stories in there. And so the next year and half is going, okay, I've got these stories, my editors, I would tell them she was like, oh, jeez, you got to put that in there.

And that's when it became, again, I was hesitant about the word memoir. I don't have a great relationship with the word memoir. You know, the word memoir always seems like, goodnight everybody. I'm heading off into the twilight of my career, the sun setting, have a look. And I was like, I need to be,

because I need these stories to be active because they are still active. And so, right, telling them, as long as they had a vitality that they felt active, which they felt like they were, and then I had that thing that is so obvious when you say it, but it didn't seem obvious to me at the time, which was the more personal I got, the more I started to notice that it was probably more relatable. The more into the eye that I went, the subject of the more I noticed that it was actually

relatable to more of the human condition. And that was my help. And yeah, well, you have a, there's a, it's a great, it's a collection of great stories. And part of the good fortune of your life is to have had those experiences that transform themselves into compelling stories without what would you say, without undue editing. The African story, for example, the dream story, transform themselves into compelling stories without, what would you say, without undue editing? The African story, for example, the dream story,

that was quite remarkable. For me, that was a highlight of the book, I would say, where you related the dream you had, a recurring dream, or at least one that recurred twice. And on the basis of that dream, voyage to South America and to Africa, is is that I hope I've got that right. The second time I had the dream, which was this exact same dream, 11 frames, 11 seconds. The second time I had it is when I chased down the first half of the dream which was South America.

I thought I'd finished it. In five years after that, I had the dream for the third time, which made me say, oh, I got a taste down the second half, which was there are African tribesmen on the banks of the river to the left. And that's what I went to Africa. Any idea why I mean, you staked a lot on the pursuit of a dream. And I mean, maybe we could say that's the motif of your book that you staked a lot on the pursuit of a dream. But it's much more concrete in that episode. You had an actual dream, a literal nighttime dream that recurred. And as a consequence of that, you took a large risk, or a

series of risks, merely going to Africa was a risk, I would say. And not something that would be expected. It's quite out of the ordinary to do that, obviously. Well, I've never had dreams that are similar to each other. But it's the only dream I've never had dreams that are similar to each other, but it's the only dream I've ever had that one was so specifically. I mean, it was exact. When I say 11 frames, I mean, like film frames, picture, one, two, three, or 11 seconds. The exact same frames, exact same

editing sequence in my mind, 11 seconds that ended in such a I don't know if I run the right way word ended it was the elements of a nightmare, but it was the opposite of a nightmare was a wet dream. And so the fact that it was the exact same dream that I've had once in 92 again in 96. Well, I had that twice. That's the first shake out. Well, that was exact same dream I had four years ago. Exactly. First time that's ever happened. Oh, that's maybe that's a celestial suggestion here. Some lady, some things telling me. What do you think you specifically learned in pursuit of that?

And have you had the dream again? My guess would be no, that you probably exhausted it, but I might be wrong. Now, I have not, to this point, it seems that I fulfilled the dream in the trip to Africa, which was the two elements in the dream. One was the Amazon River, one Morafcan tribes, those are the two geographic elements

that I knew ever crystal clear in the dream. So that's why I went to South America, that's why I went mine. I have not had it again. I mean, one I'll say this, I'm always looking for a good reason to go for a walk about. So I've got a really good reason that concrete reason there, and why were they wet dreams?

There was nothing overtly sexual about them. There was, you know, so they were, you know, spiritual in that way is how I took them. Now in Mali, I can say, and I've been back to Mali, I went back to Mali as I write about in the book five years later after I fulfilled the dream, not because I had the dream again, just because Mali, I've never felt more at home

in a place than Mali. Now you're in certain places, you know, I've been here before. This is my big gravity here, right? I've never felt more at home in a place than Molly. Now you're in certain places, you like, I've been here before. This is my big gravity here, is right. I've been here before, whether it's another life, I don't know, but Molly was where I felt business home. This was the original home.

I've been here. And so that's what went back. So that's my favorite place to go. And I've been back and did the exact same trip I did when I chased down the second half of the dream. And you shed your identity to a great degree when you went to Africa. And so that made me enable you to exist in a way that would be much unlike the manner in which you have to exist where people know where you are or who you are. the manner in which you have to exist where people know where you are or who you are. What do you think that did for you? The dream, you took this dream quest, let's say, and you paid a price for it.

The risk would be the price. What was the consequence of allowing yourself to do that. That it was one that was on me, that it was my doing, I could own it. At a time of becoming famous, you go through, at least I did, and still do it, times go through, wait a minute, what's mine? What am I getting based off of my worth? As the man I am, as the person I am, forget my fame. It becomes challenging. As the man I am, as the person I am, forget my saying. It becomes challenging.

I want to know, what is it's real, what is it not? How many of those I love yous or how many of them were just following because I just had a big box office hit and wait a minute, the person that I've had dinner with their kids and spend Christmas with, who have shared I love yous and hugs, then now I have two movies that didn't do well and that person won't return my call wait a minute

What all matters what I want to do what are we what are we doing here? So You know if you have a rep if you have a reputation That has a life of its own It becomes very difficult to distinguish between yourself and that reputation And that's one of the pitfalls of fame. And lots of times you see people sacrifice themselves to their reputation. You see celebrities becoming impersonators of themselves. Yes.

And that's a, it's a tragic fate, I would say. And, and, and that's when you go, I'm, I'm, that's, yeah, who's lagging? I've never been to wag me. I mean, like, no, no, I don't, I understand, I got famous because of who, for whatever extent, because of who I am. And what did I do? Did I get a lot of work? Yeah, well, I could see in the book

that you were snapping yourself out of your fame, even while you were doing things like the motorhome adventures, because you were living a life that certainly wouldn't, it was certainly wasn't what I expected to read, that you would voluntarily abandon what so many people value as the pinnacle of cultural achievements and shed all that and set out like any person who doesn't have that. Well, what I was, like for instance, in the South American trip, and it happened in the Mollie trips and all the walk-to-talk about it, was I needed to go to a place where nobody

had just a pain to, made my world was like all of a sudden, all the options were mine in two days before, there were none of those options were there. And now it was a world of yes, and I'm going, I only got 20 hours in a day, and I would do any of this work, and you're now telling me I can do it all?

Yeah. I need some, you're asking me to be discerning right now. And again, I went away to go, I need to go where someone doesn't know my name. I need to go away where no one's seen my movies. I want to go where there's no electricity. I want to go someplace where those hugs and tears when I say goodbye 22 days later

are based only off of the man they met 22 days ago. Well, you and you and you, you and I, one of the problems with being famous only off the man they met 22 days ago. Well, you meant to abandon them too. One of the problems with being famous is, and I suspect this is particularly the case with the kind of fame that you have is that it must be very difficult to distinguish between people wanting something from you and people enjoying your company and liking you. And it might even be difficult for them to distinguish

between those things because fame is a very difficult thing to deal with even as an onlooker. Even as a family member, you wrote about your mum's reaction, for example. She became a fan girl to some degree. And that would be definitely disconcerting. Yes, it was, yeah, eight years there were my mom and I couldn't, I needed a mother.

And what I, on the other hand, the phone was a fan of my fame. Some of who wanted my fame were than I did. Oh, great. Well, it shows you the power of that too, because your mother obviously cared for the person you were before you became famous, but she was overwhelmed. And it's not surprising. I mean, to some degree, the entire Hollywood apparatus exists to manufacture fame that's overwhelming. That's its whole, I can't say that's its whole purpose, but that's what it uses to drive,

let's say, to drive people to the theater. So to be victimized by that, no, no, to fall under the sway of that is unsurprising. It's surprising that it could be resisted. And that was certainly, you could certainly see that with your mother's response. Oh, for sure. And that has that, I'm sorry, I don't remember,

is your mom still alive? Yes, she's 88 years young and with us right now. Ah, so, and has that, has that situation rectified itself? Did she adapt to? We both adapt. Yeah. You know, I got through enough time where I felt stable enough in my career

that I was like, her loose lips are gonna sink my ship. And actually I had a lot of rains, and as soon as I said, you go mom, here's the mic. I hit that red carpet line, you can talk to anybody, you tell no filter, sell whatever stories you want. 90 naps of the time, it's awesome. And I'm like, you know, let her enjoy it. And I was able to enjoy

it. And then come to that, you know, realization that, you know, I wasn't going to change her. So because I couldn't change her, it's kind of like the sabbatical I took from the rom-coms. I wasn't going to change her. So I just had to kind of block her out for a certain amount of time that ended up being eight years until I was stable enough to go, go for it. And yeah, our relationship's great. And you know, all through that time, she didn't love me less. She's loved me in a different way,

as well as being her son. What I was needing was just, I needed her to double down on me being a mom, to me, where she didn't double down, she didn't even cut it in half. She kind of was really wanting to know about the fame part. And I remember telling her things like, well, you keep wanting to come out here and see me,

but what if I was an accountant in Chicago? Would you want to come see me as much? And my two brothers were like, you don't want to come see us as much? You want to see little brother? And we were like, yeah, we did it. So we'd call her out. And yeah, it was a strange date of years.

I never questioned her love for me though. I knew we were going to be fine. I knew we weren't going to like head to our deathbeds going on a bad note. I knew we were going to come out the other side, just a matter of win. And we did. It's none the less a good example of one of the unintended consequences of fame, right, is that this very profound alteration in the nature of your personal relationships. So, I want to switch topics a bit. I've been watching you in true detective, which my son recommended, and I'm really enjoying. I believe you said in the book

that the script leapt off the page for you. It did, especially the words of the character Rustin Cole. Right, right. Who you play? The arty heartroll. That Woody play. Yes. You were offered that role. Yes. Yeah. And I read the thing, and I remember telling them, I said, guys, I understand why you're coming to me from hard rock. I go, but the guy who I cannot wait to turn the page

to see what comes out of his mouth is this guy who has to call. And they were a bit surprised. Yeah, well, they're both complex characters. So you could see that either of them might have been attractive. But I was, I was quite struck by your, your characterization of, of, coal. It reminded me of Heath Ledger,

and that's why I wanted to talk to you about it. You play a dark character very well if you don't mind me saying so. I mean, maybe it's believable. I've known some dark people. And your portrayal is believable, very believable. And so that makes me wonder what price you pay for that's kind of a cliche, you know, you play a dark role and it invades you, but. You know, you play a dark role and it invades you, but it isn't obvious to me how you can play a dark role without it invading you and then Or at least you have to allow something dark in yourself to come out and respond to that and You're very different on the screen playing rest and cold and you are in A romantic comedy role clearly And it's it's somewhat surprising to see that transition, which I guess is why other people might be surprised by that too, which is why you actually had a bit of a hiatus when

you stopped taking rom-com roles. But I'm curious, like, what did it, what were the consequences for you of playing that character in particular, but dark characters in general? character in particular, but dark characters in general. The dark, the dark characters, the baddie, usually has so much more identity than the white knight and the hero in stories that I read in scripts and things. The dark characters and they're also they're all always usually outsiders. And I, the consequence is that I'm really going to portray one of those well in that part of myself. I'm putting myself on an island. And I love, and that excites me. I want it to be, I want to feel like the underdog.

I want to feel like I don't have to pander to manners or graces. I'm living by different rules. And not even to prove a point, but just say in a Russian calls position, someone who just, you know, I didn't make big acting choices with Russian co. I just did what I could to understand the text so well that I could just say it and not have to solicit it. Or again, Rustin Cole was a guy who preferred his own company to anyone else's and that's all I think. That was a vacation for me, also to, as a person who is a believer,

to be in an inhabit a person who is a believer, to have to be in an inhabitic character who is not a believer at all. And here's why. I'll say, I've always thought this was odd. At the time that I chose and wanted to go and have a rusting call, was the time that my faith was strongest. And if my faith would have been as strong, I might have been a little more fearful of going so deep into this man's mind spirit and he does. And so you had some protection. But a very nihilistic, the call.

He reminds me, there's a philosopher in South Africa who's an anti-nate list. Unfortunately, his name escapes me for a moment. I had a debate with him a couple of years ago. But his basic premise is that conscious suffering is so morally untenable as a phenomenon that all life should cease. If we were making the proper moral choices, we'd stop reproducing. But not only that, that we'd also do what we could, well, we can leave it at that, that we'd stop reproducing. Because if you sum up a life, it's bitter and the bitterness overwhelms the sweet.

And so it's cruelty to perpetuate. Yes, I think that is beautiful in many ways true. And I think it's also hilarious. What strikes you as comical about that, you laughed about it. And because that's where, of course, of course, we're on the way to dying. You talk about it all the time. It's tough. It's cruel. It's hard. We're out here this thing. Okay. I'm in. So that's inevitable. That's the strange thing. You know, and I felt too. I mean, I can certainly understand the argument. I hear it, and it adds up. But if that's inevitable, which I think we all say, that's inevitable.

So if we're on the way to dying, it's over. We don't, we never know if this is the end or not. So, you know, or if there's anything after it, and it is, it's hardships and overcome. Okay, since that's inevitable, and we gotta do this thing anyway, if we're choosing to stay in life another day, so what's a better way to go about it?

See, it's all for nothing, or realizing right there when you go, it's all for nothing, no, that's why it's fucking, it's all for everything. Yeah, well, there's so much. It also seems to me that if your objection to life is its suffering, adopting an attitude that will make that suffering worse is probably not a reasonable solution.

And that's where that grounds out for me. There's no construction in there. There's nothing affirmative or life giving about that. It's not making the best of the situation at the situations doing they. So, you know, I'm not for hallmark cards and delusional optimism, but I mean, and in this way, I would say optimism is survival.

It's like, well, okay, if it's all for nothing. I think optimism is courage. If it's not naive, and one of the things I liked about your book too, was that your optimism wasn't naive. And you know, because you had enough harsh experiences so that any naive optimism would have vanished. Right. Even your, even your, the way you grew up. I mean, it wasn't traumatic, but it wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't, it had its harshness about it. Sure. Yeah, it was, it was immediate, it was physical,

the same hands that hugged, the same hands that could harm. Yes, and you all, there was also very little sign of, and maybe none, no sign of bitterness about that. And, and no sign, I didn't think of any excuses for it either. Like, when you portrayed your father like you said he was a man who could hug and hit and both of them were meant and they weren't casual I never got the impression from from your book that your father's actions were casual his physical altercations

with you and and your brothers it was a different, it's a different ethos. That's not an ethos that's well understood today. I would say are one that's ever appreciated. And I suppose that's because of its harshness. But I didn't detect any sign of bitterness from you emanating towards that. No, and I have none. While I choose to maybe give consequences

to my children in different ways than my father and mother did, there was absolutely no cashiness to why and when he did punish us. None, I talk about in there, the values that were instilled even by the intonims of the words that we got in trouble for saying to not to to get a first thought weapon for saying I can't Oh geez, okay, I need you know I can't brings the thought of can't brings pain. Oh don't think can't okay You have trouble. There's a difference and to to say the second, but open for saying,

I hate you to my brother. I didn't know how I hate you. I heard it from Oliver Gadget. Kids at school, I thought it might be cool to throw it out there. I hate you. Well, that was my own birthday party. My mom stopped the whole party and said,

what'd you say? You don't ever tell your brother anyone you hate to admit me over right there and bear the heck out again The next one for lying So what do I learn how those? Don't say I can't don't hate don't lie Boy when I did those I felt pain. So what are the intonates of those? Love is to the hate

Understand you're having trouble, but don't believe you can't. And tell the truth in the life. Those are three great values. He was preparing me for you're going to need this in life. You know, it was also the time when I called, when I called him to go to tell him I want to go to film school and say law school. And he tells me that was a striking story And you know what happened I've realized now it many years later. I think what happened in that moment is He heard in the conversation last 25 seconds But what you got little buddy?

Don't want to go to law school. I want to go to film school. You sure that's what you want to do? Yes, sir. Be, be, be, be, be, be. Well, don't have to ask it. Mm-hmm. Oh, sit me into flight. But what he heard in that conversation was his son, who we were brought up in a very structured family, disciplined, you worked your way up a ladder, you followed the rules.

He heard his son calling him to tell him, he could tell I was asked calling for permission. He could tell I wasn't calling. How? Well, you know, I was thinking maybe, no, he heard my voice. I want to go to film school and sell law school. And he said,

You also weren't calling because of failure because you'd worked at law school. Right. But he heard that I was not bluffing. I was not really calling to ask his permission. And in that moment, I think he heard what all was not bluffing. I was not really called to ask his permission. And in that moment, I think he heard what all parents want to hear. Yes, my child's going their own way.

They broke out the mold. Can't wait. What would you hope every parent would want to hear? A hope so. But you know what I mean? You can't come. I have plenty of times before that that I asked him for things where I was bluffing.

And he could tell Where dad can I we you please give me the skateboard elbow pads and knee pads. I really want to be a skateboard Are you sure some yes sir? Shit, I did skateboarding for three weeks and then they gathered dust and got cobwebs damn it. That was a bad You know, I talked my dad into doing something and I didn't follow through one, but he heard this time I talked my dad into doing something and I didn't follow through one, but he heard this time to resolve and clarity in me. And I think on the other end of the line, he was going, that's my point. Yeah, well, for him to make the, to give you the green light that rapidly, the situation must have been set up properly. And for the green light that he gave you to be accepted by you

is exactly that as encouragement. Yes. The situation must have been set up properly. Okay, so you talked about playing coal in true detective and that you were protected from his dark excesses, let's say, by your faith. Why did that provide you with, in what way did that provide you with protection? It's a striking thing to say, especially given his attitude is Memphis DeFelian. There's a character in girth as Faust,

Memphis Toffles, who's Satan himself, and his essential credo is that everything that lives should perish because of the sin of its existence, essentially. And so that's coal in a nutshell, right? Yeah, and that's, it is a logically tenable argument, but it's one that needs to be rejected holistically. I shouldn't use that word, I hate that word,

but you don't reject that argument rationally because it's a rationally tenable argument. You have to reject it with your whole being instead and say, well, despite this, I'm going to live. And I'm going to try to live in an appropriate manner. Yes. But you said your faith protected you from coal. Well, it was one of the things that allowed me to fully go into cold and fully believe cold and get down and live it

and look at the world through that lens. I had already had a few years run in my life where I was quite agnostic. It was my agnosticism was not about trying to prove the disbelief of God's existence. My agnosticism was about me going, you sure have been letting yourself off the hook, Mekanae, Mr. Fadalist, I'll forgive you again, because you're being a repeatle fender and I'm kind of tired of it. Put your damn hands on the wheel man, talking to myself. You're driving here and quick go into this, I can pray and be forgiven, but you repeat offended, cut it out. I had gone through a few years earlier in my life of agnosticism where I was not so much trying

to prove a non-existence of God as I was trying to have more understand, more self-reliance and self-determination on myself, because I had been letting myself off the hook. And how was that related to the agnosticism, do you think? Because you put those together in the way that you're relating this story. Well, I needed to have, I needed to,

I needed to feel like I was wholly responsible for myself and what happened to me that I was not going to let myself slide. There's an ideal calling to you then, right? When you experience yourself as ashamed by your own behaviors, what that means is that there's an ideal inside you that's trying to manifest itself, right? Because you wouldn't be ashamed if you weren't comparing yourself to something better. And the question then becomes, well, what is that better thing that you're comparing

yourself to? And it's an ideal. And then the question becomes, well, what is the ideal? You know, and that's the sort of fleshing out what that ideal is, is that that's the function of religious thinking. So that's why it was interested in your comment about agnosticism. In Revelation, in the book of Revelation, Christ comes back as a judge, even though he's a figure of mercy, let's say he comes back as a judge.

And the reason for that, this is from Carl Jung. The reason for that is that any ideal is a judge. And so if you posit the highest ideal, then you put yourself in a position where you're judged. And that's when your conscience tortures you. And so you can discover your ideal that way by having a dialogue with your conscience and say, well, I'm not living up to who I should be. Well, who should that be? Like, where does that figure come from? That's a great mystery that it's your higher, it's the higher form of being that you're capable of manifesting that's calling to you. And let me say this, it was a version of when my father, mortal father died. I ran about this about being less impressed and more involved.

All right, I sobered up. I mean, he was talking to become a man. It was time to quit relying on the fact that I knew he had my back. He was above government, above law. I really got in a pickle and he had to back. And now he's physically gone. So this was, I'm going to discard my spiritual father.

You know what I'm saying? We'll race him to the red light, buddy. That's all it is. So what are you doing while it's here? There's one play and you go until you die and that's it. So what are you gonna do? Don't be giving yourself, let yourself off the thing and well, there may be life after this.

Uh-uh, stop it. So that's what I've gone through that. I've feeling come out of that and was, and I didn't feel this till later because I allow myself to stay in the midst of being really scared of, oh my gosh, it was not going to get struck by lightning here. Was that? My God was going, thank you. Yes, wish more of us could put our hands on the wheel. Well, we take, we throw this fake card out there, really, laxidazically, like, oh, in shell-ah,

say, it's La Vieille, I believe. Well, you know, okay, if that's it, then ride around and run all the red lights. Hit your damn hands on the wheel. Yes, you are supposed to be self-determined. So that got me and woke me up and so would me up into that position. Now the going into the Rustin Coal, I'll say this.

So I found that in my, it's got almost like a boomerang reverb. Wherever I am strongest in my own life, I find a, I like to go to the, I actually can inhabit the opposite, even better, the deeper I go into, I like to go to the, I actually can inhabit the opposite. Even better, the deeper I go into whatever would be the creative the opposition, meaning when I've played prosecuting attorneys, I actually usually believe in the defense's position more and study their defense more, their position more, which then makes me again feel like an underdog over here to go live and really got to know my argument here.

Because I actually kind of agree with them when I played defense attorneys. I'll usually agree or push myself to a point of agreeing with the prosecution. Well, at a time where my faith was the most fulfilled, Rustin Cole was like, ah, here's another great. Here's another what I call boomerang reverb. Here's another time to go way over to the opposite side because I'm so, come out here with so much steam and where I am and what I really believe and how I'm feeling in life.

And you got newborn children and all the things that are opposition that I have in my life, opposition to what Rustin Go Rustin cold was. That was, I don't know why that is, but I've all, I look back and I have a consistency of that of Wherever I am in my life sometimes I'll lay in and go play a character that I'm calling But I'm also feel like I'm drawing something well now that you're so secure here

Let's test it. Let's go all the way to the other side because over there Be here does it because I feel so strong position to say that's the thing with my face You hear it, I was in because I feel so strong in the position to say that's the thing with my faith. Now I have the strength to go and have it to somebody over there that is on the opposite side. And not have to keep my eyes open to make sure the door is open. I can trust that the door can be shut and I'll still be there when I'm done with this. I'm still there. It's still happening. You have to see it because I don't want to see it. If I'm peeking over there going, Hey, are we okay? God, are we okay with what I'm done with this. I'm still, they still happening. You have to see it, because I don't want to see it. If I'm peeking over there going,

hey, we okay, God, are we okay with what I'm saying and doing it? No, no, no, I'm half-ass in it. Now, I'm not really in habit in the part. I'm playing Rust and Cole going, I believe everything he says, I honestly thought Rust and Cole was hilarious, which you probably would now understand

by I've laughed at two comments from things that you said about that other people that spoke like Rustin Colton. Yeah, well things can be dark enough so that the immediate response to them can be laughter. Yeah. So, I, that may help explain what you're asking, but I don't know why that is, I don't know why that is for me. It's not a straightforward thing to sort out.

Let me ask you about a little bit more about fame. So now and then you see stories, true or not, about Hollywood celebrities who are irritated with the consequences of their fame. And it's very easy to be judgmental about that, because they're obviously the benefits to that fame appear obvious, monetary gain, access to opportunity, the benefits I suppose of the ego benefits, perhaps of being known rather than unknown.

And then, especially in the Hollywood community, I would say it's more difficult to generate sympathy for celebrities who are hurt by their fame because the price, it's so obvious that that's the price that has to be paid to be successful in something that's mass marketed, like a movie, where your face is associated with the product. You can't extract out the success, you can't distinguish between the success and the fame, but I don't think it's possible to understand what fame does to your life until it's happened to you. So I'm curious, like, and you protect yourself, you hide.

I don't mean in a withdrawing sort of way, but I mean, you live in Texas, you don't live in LA and you go on these sojourns where no one knows you. So you set up a skeet mechanisms, let's say, or yes. So what tell me about fame and about the impact that it's had on you? So initially fame and fame happened to me extremely quickly. Happened over one weekend when a film of time to kill came out. The Friday afternoon, the four time kill opened that Friday night. I'm walking down a promenade in San Marca

to go get my tuna fish sandwich that I always like to get for 100 people on a promenade, 396 mine in our own business, four of them look hysterical and me, a couple girls thought I was cute. So we like the shoes. A hundred scripts out there that I want to do. I'll be reading of those. 99 knows. One yes. Now, within 48 hours, time to go open up that weekend.

Very, very good. Get the reviews, et cetera, et cetera. That Monday, following Monday, 48 hours later, I got done the same problem, not everything inverted. Now, 396 out of 400 people are standing at me and 4th one and I know as check comply what have you now those 90 those 100 scripts that were 99 knows of one yes inverted 99 yes please do this and one Whoa, the roof has been taken off. Oh my God, you're so good. I love you.

Oh my God, I'm so sorry about Miss Hud. Number one, who are you? How'd you know I had a dog? How'd you know her name was Miss Hud? How'd you know she had cancer? Whoa, you just skipped four things. Nobody's a stranger anymore. Everyone seems to have an inherent biography of me.

I'm feeling trespassed upon it. It was okay. Does that I love you mean something? What I say that a lot out here. I've only said that to four people in my life. I shouldn't throw that word around here a lot. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be. Yeah, Jesus.

So trying to take that in. I learned a great lesson after a year seven of of fame. And it's probably a year, seven for reason. How old were you when that, when that happened? 96, some 18, 88, eight years later, 26 years old. 26. So you're still pretty young, but you weren't 17. So you had some maturity. You had some maturity. You had some maturity at that point, thank you. Yeah, I know more of what I'm not

than maybe more of what I do or what I am, but I'm aware enough of who I don't wanna be. And I'm aware enough that I don't want to, that I need some disordination in this now Optionless yeses that are coming at me in my world I'm I'm aware that I'm not that I need to again be less impressed and more involved and go right now that I have the chance now I've got the wheel and I can go wherever I want where am I gonna go? Which was the first unbalancing sort of very

Scary proposition, which is why I took off the first couple ofancing sort of very scary proposition, which is why I took off the first couple of times to the monastery and then to Christ and the dead. Here my damn self, think, trying to decipher and disseminate what matters from who am I in this, what I actually wanna do, what I not wanna do, what I wanna make stands on. Look, I remember for a while there,

I had such a, my life was so many things on top, the frequency of events were on top of me. From just walking, walking down the street, to interviews, to talking to somebody, my life has been accorded. The world was now a mirror, and I remember telling my feeling almost numb. I couldn't put a demarcation between the life, the fame I just gotten and myself. So I remember telling myself, well, since you're kind of numb, just I took the old Abraham Lincoln thing.

I was like, just be a gentleman and don't lie. All right, just stick to these two things. And I gave some boring ass interviews, but I was a gentleman and I didn't lie, but I was just like, don't even try and get colorful. Don't even try and have an opinion on anything. Just right now ride through this and be a gentleman and I didn't lie, but I just said, like, don't even try and get colorful. Don't even try and have an opinion on anything. Just right now ride through this and be a gentleman and don't lie. And I gave the same interview 50 times in a row over about two months.

Yeah, well, there is something to be said when you're exposed to that degree, to adopting a strategy of don't do anything stupid for a while. Yes. It was so I was, you know, surviving on the way to what could possibly become thriving, but it was holding my head above water and going, just keep knocking them down, you'll take some time off, you'll get some time off to let your memory catch up with you later. So to begin with, it was a shock and you've, you developed some strategies for dealing with it. What about over the longer run?

Now, it's been, you've been well known for, it's got to be... 20 or 25 years, hey? So 32 or 33 years old, I wake up and it clicks for me one time. That, oh, you got to get the joke in Hollywood. And the joke is it ain't personal. It's business. Right. And that's not a particular joke to Hollywood, maybe the particular joke and life a lot.

And then it ain't business. But that made me go, ah, okay. Don't take it so personally, when that person, I talked about earlier, won't even call you back because your last couple of movies have failed. And you spent, you know, you were on the list to be their children's Godfather five years ago. Don't take that personally or don't take it personally when that person now, because you did get hit, is calling you and wants to go out and hang out again. Don't even bring up that, hey,

you wouldn't even answer my phone. Don't even tell them you understand the score about how they wouldn't call you then But now they do now. Well, that's a good that's a good technique to avoid resentment Yes, and you resent is so toxic. It's so toxic. Well, that's what the that's what getting the job of not understanding that wooden personal Yeah, yeah, I've done that with people looking for work, you know, because it's difficult to find a new job and you're going to get turned down a lot in all likelihood. You're going to send your resumes out to 50 places and get one positive reply if you're, you know, you can expect that.

It might not be that bad, but it could be. It's not personal. Most of those jobs don't even exist. It doesn't, it has something to do with you, but not that much. There's a huge situational factor there, and you have to take that into account. Yes. Well, it's similar to, we lose a lot of them. For me, I lose my father. Well, after he dies, after he moves on from this life, I found out some facts where the message in the message here were not sympathetic. You know, what he was teaching me and what he was actually doing, there was a gap between those things.

And I was like, what? You know, inevitably, right? Inevitably. You actually want that from your father. You want your father to teach you better than he is. Yeah. You know, yeah. But the first feeling can be and I've seen people

go a lot of resentment on betrayal. Yeah. And there it's true. It isn't, it isn't betrayal. But, but what do you want your father to put forward the worst version of himself and use that as what he teaches you? See, this goes back to that nihilistic view. If it's all for nothing, then come on us, make it all for everything. I'm with you on that. So my father moving on, it happened pretty quickly for me, I'm going like, oh, I get it. He's wanting me to be better than he is.

He's wanting me to do better. I get it, Bravo. So, but I could tell maybe if that had happened two years earlier, I would have been in the emotional space to, I might have been, because it was flabbergasting. It's like meeting a hero and they turn out to be an asshole. And you're like, well, they're very likely to turn out badly in comparison to your idealization of them.

On percent, which, but at the same time, you go talk to your favorite musician and you've followed who you performed, your version of paper, tritism and fairness in the world. And you go meet him, they try not to be an asshole, and you go like, they don't even believe them what they wrote. You're like, what? But you, and... Well, if flawed people were incapable of creativity, we wouldn't have any creativity.

And so, I think what you have to do when you're dealing with creative people is realize that, or people who are creative and accomplished even is realize that or people who are creative and accomplished even is realize that the fact that they've managed that despite all their flaws is the thing that's truly remarkable because they have as many flaws as the next person. So, so thank God there, this is why, you know, when I see someone like Louis CK for example, pilloried terribly, I think, well, yeah, he did some things that were unseemly, certainly even by his own standards, obviously.

So what do we make of that? Well, there's plenty of people who do unseemly things, but not, but very few of them are as masterful a comedian as Louis C. K. So do we want to lose them because he's flawed? Right. It seems, it seems inappropriate because we'd lose everybody that way. And then we just have loss. That's not helpful. Yes, I mean, I think you're leaning into, you know, a lot of what we call a cancel culture today. Yeah. Is can, you know, in the name of rehabilitation, we have to have a world in which we are able to grow and evolve if that's what we're trying to do.

Now, oh, I mean, you know, I'm not the repeat offenders or tyrants, but if someone screws up and they have sincere, they sincerely want retribution. I think it's fair to give, it's people. Well, it better be because otherwise we're all doomed. Right? Well, absolutely. Like there's not a person among us

who hasn't made repeated errors. And if contrition and repentance aren't sufficient, then we're all damned. No doubt about that. So all right. So we were continuing our discussion on fame. So you're 25 years into being famous and you seem to be doing handling your success. Right. In a manner that allows you to be pleased about the way your life is unfolded.

And so thank God for that. And here you are. You're still here after all these years. And so you've handled your fame well. How come? How could you manage that? Okay, I have an amen. It's that, well, big, big thing for me

and that works for me in my life like this, just giving a click of a word and understanding completely changed my perspective when I go, oh, that's it, that's true. I'm not quick banging my head against the verbal wall. Now I understand that won't be clicked for me. Seven years was getting personal in business. That helped a lot. So now I understand the impermanence of this, just for all dance, dance with this, dance with it. Next one, that was just sort of a behavioral perspective,

even though it sounds like a cool one liner, was when people would ask, or I would of myself, run to an inconvenience of fame, a paparazzi or what have you, someone looking over the wall, not being able to go outside, I was like, I'm not gonna cry about it because that check is already cashed. Right, that's right.

I can't go back if it's inevitable. I'm gonna figure out a good way to get through this. I then started to say, okay, well, when you're watched in life, Matthew, and a camera's on you, notice how you speed up and you get a little nervous. Well, why don't you look at this like the master acting class.

See if you can go out into the world with eyes on you. Uninvited eyes, cameras recording, and actually behave and do just the behavior that you went out to do. Yeah, you know, okay. We're in New York City. Makeup artist, do my face, my son's three years old. He's talking to his favorite things fire trucks. He goes with my husband, some fire cap that he's actually blocks away. Well, and bring him, bring the fire truck over. Downtown New York. Well, that means a lot of

pop rods you're going to come right. But my three-year-old son doesn't know what pop rods are, and he gets to see his first fire truck live. Do I go down there and show my son's first fire truck or do I tell him no son? I'm not going to see the fire truck because you'll understand it later, there are people with cameras. I'm like, yes, that, man. My son wanted to see his first fire truck as much more important than came before any right that anyone's got that inconvenience he comes with my fame. We're going to see the damn fire truck.

Well, he does see the fire truck, he sees the fire truck, cameras all around. He didn't understand what it was. I'm sitting there going like, this was about letting my son see the fire truck. I'm tried to live my life and I check with myself. I don't, I'm not foolish with my thing. I don't open the doors and invite the, the, the devil's in or open my, you know, self-op and say, yeah,

I'm going to book, have a look, come on and now I understand I can be fully taken advantage of and there are plenty of people who would love to take advantage of that. But I often tell myself, of Amstah, but I often tell myself, again, who's lagging who? What are your rights, McConaughey, as a human, as a citizen, as the man you are? Don't let those be taken away from me because of something you've got a long way, which was fain and it can be just as they come with that. So while I don't advertise, and my wife and I'll say this, we do not advertise ourselves, but we want to go for a walk in the park or go see that proverbial fire truck and show our child that.

We're going to go, let's do it, and we're doing it. If you want to record us, I call them Discovery Channel, Record it. You know what? Good use of film, good use of recording. So I'm really really glad to just having eyes on you too, because it does force you to behave. You can leave your keys in your car in a lot of places, because if he was going to come rob your car,

they're going to document the one time to rob it. It's a bit of a security bank on that too. So you see, we have a fun a few things here and perspective, not denying and convening to say, hey, if this cat, this check is cash, here's how I'm going to try and get constructive and do it. And so, fame now, it gets me in certain doors. I've had to watch this. things that I'll say, the famous person can come out and build print. Not just on pretty page, but two people. So I've had I've had I've had so too strongly and actually hurt people with my words where maybe I didn't have the emoji to put on the end of the what I wrote

with a wink and they heard it like I was throwing a back at him, but I was going, no, no, I was just tickling, yeah, I didn't mean to hurt you, you know, and what tickled me may brew somebody else. And my words come out with that weight sometimes. So I have to watch that. I remember when I was a teenager, I got put down by teenager, I got put down by someone who was reasonably well-known in public. And it was a misunderstanding, but it burned itself into my memory. And I thought, if I'm ever in a situation where I'm well-known, I'm going to remember this so that I don't. And like, had it been a normal, had he been an everyday person, let's say, what he said wouldn't have had nearly the impact

on me that it did. So, and that is a strange thing to have to realize and to weigh your words that way. I'm cognizant of your time. I know that you have another obligation coming up. And so I thought it might be useful to move towards closing this. People are going to wonder how it was that we came to have a conversation.

And so maybe you could shed some light on that. And because I'm curious, I'm curious about it as well. I got turned on to you from a friend of mine about four years ago, maybe three years ago. And I started listening to a lot of what you were saying. And many of the things you said, I had been thinking about, but I heard you putting them into words, into context, I was like, what, that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm trying to get to. I found, and it could a lot of us back to talk about self-determination, which we've talked about a lot about.

Self-authoring, and then you hear, you see a lot of those threads through my book, maybe the different way, and it will folksy way. But a lot of what you've said gave me confidence to go, I'm going to put my story on paper. So I thank you for that. And that's why I thank you in the back of the book. You know, I reached out to you, I guess, a year and a half ago or so, and you and I chatted and I was taking contact with your daughter. You know, your definition, one of the great simple things. I said earlier, sometimes just to re-understanding a word differently. I've always had trouble, and I'm betting a tough relationship, an awkward relationship with many words, but my two that I've had the longest trouble with, or vulnerability and humility.

Yeah, definitely tough ones, tough ones. So humility, I, you know, okay, be humble. For, for, for, you decades, be humble. I lost confidence when I was humble. I, I, I, I pained false modesty, which I, which I knew at the time that's arrogant. What do you do it? Right. Absolutely. It's very difficult to be, to have humility without being arrogant about it. Weirdly enough, correct me if I'm as quote you. It's humility is knowing you have more to learn.

You're either in love with what you know or you're in love with what you don't know and there's a lot more of what you don't know. So pick your love carefully. Oh, well, that, I went, oh, I purchased, I'm in on that. But for the first time when I see that, I'm not shrieking. I'm actually standing taller. My heart's higher, My chin's higher. My shoulder's higher.

Right, right, right. I have more courage going forward. Because, oh, 100%. I can rely on that until I'm gone, and maybe even further than that. Yes, I have more to learn. I purchase, but now I can go with full with confidence of what I do know, what I have built.

I can have more courage. I can forgive easier. I can take responsibility I have built. I can add more courage. I can forgive easier. I can take responsibility with more courage. I can take care of the things I've built and to attend those gardens better with that understanding of humility. So for that, I thank you. I appreciate that.

It's a human and it's a foreign average. I wanna throw a little fun Z out there for you. Okay, so while I was writing and I've become a fan, which I'd love to continue talking with you more about this subject divine objective. We in the third eye sort of the jumbo tron of our like we hop out of ourself and have a look or we project forward in our lives

and say, who am I in 10 years? Or what would my Ula G.B.? You see, I write a lot about these things in the book. While I was writing, I hopped out, I gave myself the pleasure one night, after a few sips, and it was late at night. In mind, most trouble, I'm happy to say this, that hardest thing about going to write this book for me

was making myself a bit. I was putting 17 hours a day, just having two hour days in, and I was just like, you've got to get some sleep. But anyway, one of these nights, while I was in the fever pitch on fire writing, I wrote down some, I hopped that side of myself and said, I'm gonna write reviews from people that, I think this is what they would say about this book

after reading. And this is one of them. That's great way to become aware of your audience or of the audience you want to have. Well, then you have to speak to an audience when you're writing, obviously. Well, it's, you know, it's, it's a very subjective experience, but I think there's, there is another, as you said, the good thing about talking to oneself and the third person is it's

a different view of awareness. It's an objective awareness back at like, oh, am I actually doing what I intended to do? Is what I intended actually being recorded is what being recorded actually what's being received. There could be a lot of gaps in between those things and I'm trying to put those gaps, right? So I hopped outside of myself and wrote a, wrote a, which what I thought you would say about Greenmines and Max McConnay the author. It's entrance level understanding to master class psychology delivered in a folk song. I mean, the guys got the gift to Gabman.

What can I say? Jordan Peterson. That's quite remarkable because that is very close to what I thought. You know, so I think you nailed it. You did it. It's very difficult to put forward a message without being propagandistic and the best way to do that is to tell stories. Your book is full of stories and the stories seem to me to add up to a life well lived and

that's a good model. It's a model, but it's also not put forth as a model. So it doesn't suffer from the flaws of the flaws that might come along without putting forth, you know, it's, and I guess that's because you stayed contemplative. I mean, one of the things I've tried to do in my lectures is to remember that I'm lecturing to me as well. You know, I'm part of the audience if I'm talking about how we might behave, I mean we, I don't think that I'm outside of the problems that I'm discussing. Those two are not a contradiction.

More of us can understand that. We're talking to ourselves as well. Yes. Well, it takes the sting out of things and it keeps you on the ground. So, well, I think that's quite funny that you wrote that review and it's also quite funny that it is in line with what I thought. I should show the book again since this is a good time to do that. And you know, that's the cover of my picture on it, but underneath that is the really cool

thing. That sort of is the is the is the symbol that's the metaphor that I'm playing with, which is all the red and yellow lights that we have and are like the hardships the is the symbol that's the metaphor that I'm playing with, which is all the red and yellow lights that we have and I like the hardships the crisis is in the rear view mirror of life. At least be a lessons learned. We're we'll reveal ring night assets that we need it. It's not denying the crisis, you know, of even the death of a loved one, but it is saying, oh, there were lessons even in that. And I would offer, I wondered, Jordan, if some of these lessons we know,

we're gonna learn them when we're in the crisis. Some we don't know until next month. Some we're probably not gonna know to our deathbed. And I would argue that some will never be realized until maybe our great, great, great, great grand kids realize them, three generations from now. And no, there's a green light in this year. We're in right now. Big green lights in this big red light

year of COVID and social unrest and and and and political distrust and and and people having to redefine who they are and what politics is and what's fairness and what's equality and they all the this in the extreme. There's a big there's big green lights that will be revealed out of this year. Don't know when, but more than optimistic, I think real listed that that's going to be true. So that's an excellent place to end. I would say thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you and I deeply appreciated the acknowledgement and I'm very pleased that my work has contributed to what you've produced.

I also get a kick out of the fact that our books are chasing each other on the top 10 list on Amazon. So I think that's quite well, it's a privilege and it's an impossible privilege. And so I'm very pleased to see that. And I wish you the best of luck. I hope that we get a chance to talk again. I enjoyed that very much. I did too. Good, good. And hopefully the audience will respond in the same way, I think so. So thanks for taking the time, me. My pleasure, Jordan. I very much appreciate I look forward to the next time.

Good to see you, sir. Good to see you too. Ciao. Yeah. you