The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 174. You're Next | Dr Rima Azar

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

On Season 4, Episode 28 of the Jordan Peterson Podcast, Jordan is joined by Dr. Rima Azar. Dr. Rima Azar is an Associate Professor of health psychology at Mount Allison University, co-founder and co-director of NaviCare/SoinNavi, and a former holder of a CIHR New Investigator salary award in Developmental Psychoneuroimmunology.Dr. Rima Azar and Jordan sat down to discuss the importance of free speech and what happened with the recent controversy surrounding her blog, as well as what led to her suspension at Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick.

Welcome to the JBP podcast. Season 4 Episode 28 features my dad joined by Dr. Rima Azar. Dr. Rima Azar is an associate professor of health psychology at Mount Allison University, co-founder and co-director of NaviCare, and a former holder of a CIIR new investigator salary award in developmental psycho-neuroimmunology. Dr. Rima Azar and dad discussed the importance of free speech and what happened with the recent controversy surrounding her blog, as well as what led to her suspension at Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick. You can find Dr. Azar's blog at bambi-saff-car-b-a-m-b-i-s-a-f-k-a-r.ca. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. I went to helix sleep.com. I took the Helix quiz and I was matched with the Helix midnight.

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Helix is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at helixsleep.com slash Jordan. That's helixsleep.com slash Jordan for up to $200 off and two free pillows. Hello everybody, we've got something a bit more topical today. I'm going to be speaking with Dr. Rima Azar, who's associate professor of health psychology at Mount Ellison University, co-founder and co-director of NaviCare, Slash Swans Navi, and a former holder of a Canadian Institutes of Health Research, new Investigator Celery Award in Developmental Psychoneuro Immunology.

She's co-scientific lead in the three-part leadership of the new Brunswick Strategy for Patient Oriented Research Network, a provincial network including 120 stakeholders under the leadership of two researchers, two clinicians and two policymakers. She's a former Canadian Institutes of Health Research Advisory Board member for the Institute of Human Development, Child and Youth Health at the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. Mount Ellison University, where Dr. Azarticis is a Canadian, primarily undergraduate liberal arts university located in Sacville,

New Brunswick. It's been ranked the top undergrad university in Canada 21 times in the past 29 years by McLean's magazine, a record unmatched by any other Canadian university. In February of 2021, Dr. Azar ran into some trouble at her university because of view she expressed on her blog while commenting on news articles in the media. So this is part of my ongoing discussions about, or everyone's ongoing discussions about the state of today's universities. Thanks very much for joining me today, Dr. Azar. Thank you for having me.

It's unbelievable that I'm on your show. Well, it's too bad. It has to be under these circumstances. Yes indeed. So how long have you been at Mount Ellison? Since 2008, so about 13 years. And what's it been like? What department are you in? And what has it been like for you?

Psychology. And it has been amazing since day one, working with my colleagues, the students, my colleagues across the campus, the community, my good relationships with everyone, the administration, the students, the union, I've never had any problem at all, until February. So you like Mount Allison, you like the community, you're happy to be there.

Absolutely. And what undergraduate courses do you teach? I teach courses at all levels, so intro to psychology. So first year, we have sections and I teach 200 students, health psychology the second year. I teach a course called Perinatal, health psychology third year,

and a seminar in my area, psychonuronology or advanced health psychology. And you've enjoyed your teaching as well as your research? Oh yes, absolutely. And what kind of research do you do? I do research, but what my love is called the psychobiology of stress and health lab. And my research is amateur the Psychobiology of Stress and Health Lab. And my research is Amitri's seven stress in coping, in resilience, now currently in relation

to families of children who have complex care needs. I work with colleagues at R&B St. John. It's just amazing what we can do while being at Mount Edson University. So working in the community here, working across New Brunswick, across Canada, etc. And where did you do your undergraduate and graduate work? Undergraduate at the University of Montreal. I did something called psychoeducation, which is developmental psychology. It's a more clinically oriented program where we can practice. I did a masters in it, so I have that clinical background, but I do research, had stress research clinical research, and I did my PhD in developmental psychonur in the chronology again, reverse of Montreal. I moved to Toronto and I did my postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Toronto University of Network and yes. So are you originally from Montreal?

Originally from Montreal but originally originally from Beirut, Lebanon. So I've lived 15 years in Montreal. I arrived when I was 17. And you were 11 on before then? Yes, and I did my C-JEP college that exists in Quebec. I did a year of college and the university. So you moved to Canada with your parents? Or did you come on? Yes, at first with my parents, but then they moved back. So I chose to stay.

And I always joke saying I represent the Azar family in Canada. So my parents are very attached to Canada, they are Canadians, but they live in Beirut, and I live here. Okay, so you immigrated to Canada and you lived in Montreal, you went to school in Montreal, and then you ended up in New Brunswick, and you've been teaching there, you said,

since 2008, so it's been 13 years. Yes. So, and what happened? You have a blog, tell us about that. Yes, I'm gonna tell the story of how it happened, not like, of course, what is going on internally, but what is in the media that I can speak to. But if you allow me first, I want to say that it all started with the

blog, but then there have been an invitation for complaints about the blog. And I want to clearly and firmly say and state that I deny those allegations that are circulating in the media against me. So that's clear. I'm someone who strongly believe in respect and human relationships. And I think if we have that respect toward others, self-first but toward others, it's the best antidote to racism, discrimination, mistreatment of others. as a discrimination, mistreatment of others. So I'm against discriminating against anyone, including myself, of course, but against anyone. So that for me, I want to get it out clearly, please.

So tell us about the blog. When did you start writing your blog? In July 2019. And why did you start to do that? I mean, you have your research career, you're an undergraduate or your teacher as well. You're working in the community, you have a full life. What what compelled you to start a blog? I love to write. And I think it's a reflex that I have from war. So I used to write my diary in Arabic and in French, and I have time with me.

They came with me in a box and went across three provinces. So I love to write. So in July 2019, I didn't have the chance, maybe, to say what I wanted to say on a platform. So I decided to have my own blog and just write for the pleasure of writing. I write about Lebanon, maybe half of the time, I write about Canada, Quebec, here. I just write and express views

in relation to what is happening in Canada and in the world. And I think I'm seeing something very worrisome, and maybe that's part of why, maybe I'm writing because I'm seeing something very worrisome and maybe that's part of why maybe I'm writing because I'm seeing that we are in times where we can't talk about things when look what's happening in my story. Like people are afraid, they may think things when they are at home privately but they may not express them publicly

or maybe because of your own political correctness or whatever. I'm not that type of person. Like, what I write or ban me, the name of the person writing is actually the meaning of my first name, Rima. It means a little deer in Arabic and ban me is that deer. So ban me is of car, our ban me is thoughts. So I what I write is actually who whom I am, what my own thoughts privately and on that blog. I sometimes write maybe personal things about birthdays of loved ones and whatever. It's a blog, right? So that's it. And what kind of audience does your blog have?

Well at first I thought it had maybe 10 people, maybe first myself, I was writing for myself, but I thought family members. And then when that story happened, for once I searched, I actually don't have the time to do that. And I thought it was like really getting 2000 on one day. And then like, I don't know, another day I checked 500, something like that. I thought, oh my goodness, I was really thinking,

I'm writing, I'm using during the pandemic my in-laws or my parents sometimes with some some issues. All right, about the Baruch explosion, I interviewed friends about what they are going through with the financial crisis, things like that. Right, so it had expanded beyond the small number of people that you had assumed were reading it. Absent. And what were you? Okay, so tell me about your thoughts about people's inability to speak. What have you been thinking or experiencing prior to this

explosion of interest in your particular case? What had you been sensing? And was that the culture at large? Was that at Mount Allison? What had you been experiencing that was worrisome to you? That is at large. You know, when we hear stories about people being silence in one way or another, or when we see that people are being, I don't know if that's the term in English, but this is reputable, I mean, but being made into doubleizing them, you know, saying words, you know, this or that, traces or that, just because someone is...

Right, having the reputation attacked. Yes, exactly. And so that, and that is actually, it's ironically a contradiction with where I come from, where we know we have a powerful group, more powerful than other groups, but we have not been on as issues, but I mean, they can teach freely. They can criticize freely. And I do criticize things there. And I have never imagined in my whole life that my problems would be from Canada

and not like coming from when I come from, which is what I mean. So what did you write about that got that caused trouble? And for how long did tell us all about that? It's very hard to know precisely, but I, but you know, some of the things it's public information I'm not saying anything that went in emails or in social media from the university.

So I or went in the media actually, if you read the stories of being accused of being racist, of being, you know, all these terms like encouraging sexual violence. So what those were the accusations against you? They were accusations of racism. They were accusations of racism. They were accusations that you were promoting sexual violence? Yes.

What else were you accused of? It seems odd to be promoting sexual violence, but I can explain why perhaps people, maybe younger people think in black and white and don't see the nuances. And I can understand that when we are young, sometimes it's like that. But I try, I think I try to bring some perspective

by comparing places worse than Canada. Canada has issues, of course, like all the countries. But Canada is not as bad as we think. Had it been that bad, I would have not immigrated here. My family would have not chosen to stay. So maybe I may have said in wars, war times or under certain radical groups, you may have rape or culture or rape. And by no means I meant to be saying, minimizing the experience of people, going through, through horror, both things like rape and then that sexual act. So that's absolutely not the case. But I think

it's all about the blog, in all honesty, all what we hear in the media is not the main thing is the blog, is it disturbing. and exactly exactly what happened to you. So you were you were living what I would presume was a pretty comfortable and and happy life. As you described being a teacher and a researcher, you spun off this blog on the side. And then what happened one day, you were notified by the university? Tell us exactly the story. I can tell you, but I want to say yes, I'm extremely happy, even in the pandemic, even despite the very explosion and everything, like finding my ways of living coping

where New Brunswick is amazing for Canada. But we're also lucky to be in the semi-ro areas where even the pandemic did not hit us as hard as strong or bigger places or Montreal. So in that sense, it was all okay until that February 22nd, where I can tell you that story because it's my story, that's my part. And it's in the media actually. I was having symptoms of actually like COVID-19, I wasn't sure. And I was very, very, very sick. I usually run fast and jump and go on the stairs.

And I couldn't take the stairs. I would stop, couldn't breathe. And so on that day, the Monday where it happened, I went for testing, was finally negative, but I went, came back, did my work day, and then at the end of the day, I was lying on the couch, thinking that I was resting, I got a phone call from a kind former student,

telling me, Dr. Azhar, you need to know what is happening. And I thought, are you okay? What is happening? Was worried. And he said, no, I'm fine. You are in trouble and big trouble. So the story started in the social media. I'm not on social media myself.

So for me, I chose that blog because it's what suits my personality, what I, you know, writing and having enough space to write. And so, anyways, I enjoy reading social media and I do, but I'm not on it. So I went, I read quickly and I was, okay, it's, you know, it was there. And this is where this was on Twitter. This was all happening on Twitter.

On Twitter. Where was it on Twitter? I don't know if it was happening on, as well as a Facebook, I guess, but I saw the Twitter myself. And then, and he made but I saw the Twitter myself. And then, and you made that out of the university publicly. So not on Twitter, on Facebook, or the public channels of the university saying, you know, it's public. So I'm not saying what is not public. Children warning, that blog, we dissociate ourselves from it and encouraging complaints.

Okay, so what people, what were people saying on Twitter? And who was it that was saying it and how many of them were there? Do you know? A lot. And like it was, it was a big thing on social media. And there has been also at one point, you know, threat of finance on social media, I think like that. So it was, it was then, I don't want to forget that part. When there were three student organizations asked for my removal from my position at my university and also affiliations

as well, like University of New Brunswick invested among them as well. So it got really big. Okay, so I want to zero in on this. So there's some students primarily on social media, on Twitter primarily, and they're complaining about your blog. And there are students who are part of student organizations.

And then the student organizations and do you and then the student organizations themselves three of them are contacting the people that you're working for or with suggesting that you're not the sort of person they should be associating with and asking for your removal. You said there were lots of students doing this and I I'd like to get something, an estimate of something like a number. So does a lot mean 500 or does it mean five? Some, in between maybe I don't know precisely the answer.

Well, the reason I'm asking is because one of the things I'm curious about is just how many people have to complain before complaints are taken with some degree of seriousness. Now, I've dealt with ethics people have to complain before complaints are taken with some degree of seriousness. Now, I've dealt with ethics boards, for example, at my own university, and they have a policy that every complaint should be investigated thoroughly. And I'm not very fond of that policy, particularly, because there are a lot of people who cause

a fair bit of trouble for absolutely no reason. And it seems to me that complaints need to pass something approximating a reasonable threshold before they're dealt with, let's say, seriously. And so, you know, it's striking when you're talking about this that you don't know how many people actually came after you, because they came after you on social media.

And it's certainly not in the hundreds. It's unlikely to be, correct me if I'm wrong, it's unlikely to be in the dozens. Is it 10? Is it 15? And were they students who were actually in your classes or were they just people who read your blog? And what were they objecting to in your blog exactly?

What did you say that was in principle, or do you even know what it is that they're upset about? What I've read is that you made some claim that Canada wasn't systemically racist, that that wasn't the right way of looking at the country. And so, and to me, that means now, is that the case now that at university, if I stand up and say that I don't believe that the lens of systemic racism is the proper way to analyze Canada, especially compared to other countries, that now I'm so reprehensible that I deserve to be suspended.

If a couple of people object, is that the situation that we're looking at? Or am I being too hard on the university? Well, I think we start to answer that question. So it's like, the numbers that I know of now, I know them because of what happened and how many people. But before I didn't know anything, I personally found it amazing that my university,

my employer that I love and respect, you know, did not call me to tell me what was happening, that I learned it in that way. Did you union? My union is doing what needs to be done, and I'm very grateful, but I didn't know about that. I knew, that's how I knew it. And then after that first call,

friends from Nova Scotia, Emerson, Nova Scotia, called hearing in the news and the radio, it was all everywhere. I have to admit, I may be wrong, but there may have been a flavor for that during that month. So like, my story was sort of a scapegoat for something that is much bigger than a deer,

a simple deer, a silly deer, sometimes you know, we're not allowed to write serious things, or silly things, or be wrong, sometimes we're not allowed to write serious things or silly things or be wrong or change our mind. So what precisely I don't know, but I do, I personally am allergic to identity politics given my background. So I may have written things about that or about, you know, it's hard to tell. But you're still not sure. You're still not sure what it is that, okay. So you're not sure exactly who you offended or how many of them there are

and you're not exactly sure why you offended them. And you're so unsure that what you say is that as far as you're concerned, you can't safely write down what you think despite the fact that you have your opinions given where you came from, given the fact that you've immigrated here, that you can take a look at Canada from the perspective of an insider

and an outsider, you're not sure what your crime is. No, but now because it's in the media, I can talk to that. So I'm not respecting the confidentiality of the process for investigation reports. It's in the media. Others are valid. Well, you get the chance to defend yourself.

In any case, I mean, you've been suspended, correct? Yes. In the fall. OK. And you said your university didn't even call you when all this blew up. And which is typical, in my experience, of the way institutions are reacting to this sort of thing.

So an unnamed number of students made comments that you have used that are in some sense reprehensible, even though you don't know what they are. And the response of your university, despite the fact that you have tenure, that you're an accomplished scientist, that you're a popular undergraduate researcher, that you have tenure, the response of your university was to not call you, but suspend you for the fall, what pending an investigation. An investigation into what exactly have they told you what you did wrong? Of course, I saw those complaints.

And I can tell you, I think that part I can say it is most of them are related to the blog and that's fine. People have the right not to like what you say, what I say, what anyone else is saying, that's fine. But when we get into false allegations, it's a different story. There's also a difference between having the right not to like what you say on your blog and aggregating behind your back

and conspiring to contact all your employers and to insist that you be removed because you're reprehensible and hypothetically a danger to the, let's say, the safety of students and to have you removed from your position and have your reputation dragged through the mud and have you exposed in the media. I mean, that's not merely not liking what you said. That's an all-out attack. And it's amazing to me that this handful of students

and unspecified number has the power to move the administration to produce such a dramatic response. And you keep wavering in some sense as to the nature of your crimes. You said, you think it might, you think it's likely the blog, but I guess there are allegations that go outside the blog as well. Have you ever had trouble with your students in classes

that have resulted in complaints? Never. All those who know me personally, who can guess who I am in the blog? Because I think it shows a little bit that part. You know, I write a lot, so you can guess, you can see, you can make links, you can see. So for example, I may criticize a certain politician in one blog, but I can say thank you on another one for doing something, you know I'm writing, because we cannot comment on art media articles many times, you know, the comment section is closed, right?

So for me, it's my way of doing it. So if they... Well, it doesn't seem to me that it's something that needs to be justified. I mean, first of all, you're a citizen of a free country. You have right to express yourself anyway that you see fit. Second of all, you're a tenured professor

and your thoughts are actually protected to a fair degree and it's protected broadly so that you can think broadly. And the fact that this has happened despite your tenure, well, I guess part of the question that people who are watching might be asking is why the hell should they care about this? And the reason I believe that people should care about this, first of all, is that what happens in the universities ends up happening everywhere else very, very rapidly. And if it can happen to someone like you, it seems to me that it can happen to anyone at any time and any place.

And this unbelievable cowardice that our institutions show in the face of unwarranted allegations, as long as they're the right flavor, is something that should be tremendously worrisome to everyone. Now, in your situation is also particularly peculiar, I might say, because you don't seem to be the right sort of target for this sort of targeting, you know, because you're using the terminology that I don't appreciate in the least. I mean, your female, you're an immigrant, you're at least in principle part of the communities that

the people who push this sort of nonsense are hypothetically trying to protect. So why is it because you are in one of these victimized categories and you dared to say something that wasn't in accordance with the necessary moral ideology that you've been targeted. So let's find out this. You came to Canada from Beirut. Okay, what's your experience of this country? This racist, oppressive, systemically biased country? What's your impression of this place?

I'm a prestigious university. I mean, I love my university. I did all my studies at the great university. I worked with great to all the universities. Something, if Canada was that racist with me at least, because some people would say that's your story. It's not a story of others. I'm not the only one who speaks like that.

You lived in Montreal. Yes. For how long? For 15 years. OK. What was it like? I've lived in Montreal. Yes. For how long? For 15 years. Okay. What was it like? I've lived in Montreal. I know what Montreal is like. What's Montreal like as a city? I love it. It's a Montreal. Why? Amazing. Because people are open-minded. People are people respect to you know. They you can say what you wish. You can. It's a Quebec. It's sometimes mischaracterized sadly, but I defend Quebec. I don't know if

there's something that bothers some people. So I'm not just from Beirut, Lebanese Canadians, and I'm Canadian, first and foremost, but Lebanese Canadians. I'm Quebecer, I've been Quebec. I love Ontario, and I visit Vancouver, and the west part of the country. I told myself, oh, why didn't my family be great there? It's fascinating. You know, every place is beautiful in Canada. And so when I come back to what may have bothered them, I think you put your finger on it. Maybe they wanted, if you need the about of the Bambi's blog,

you see that that deer does not want to fit in any group and put on a box. So I'm supposed to be racialized, you know, be a poor me. I don't have poor, I don't like to be victimized personally in my life. Even now with what is happening to me, I think I'm a dignified person. So in that sense, I like the term invisible minority, visible minority, you know, the terms that used to be used in Quebec my time when I immigrated, I see myself more in them and then like, like, put us divided into your group, that group and you know, sector, or not like Canada.

Right, so you're supposed to be, first of all, your female, so hypothetically, you're oppressed because you're female, even though the evidence for suppression of females in academia is very, very, it's actually, females dominate over males in terms of numerical proportion in most disciplines. It's not the case in the STEM fields, but everywhere else, it's the case, not only, especially

in terms of graduates produced. It might not be the case at the highest levels of distinction in the academic hierarchy, although that's changing pretty rapidly. So you should actually fit into at least two oppressed categories, female and immigrant, right? And so the rule here is that if you're in both of those categories victimized by the intersection between those two categories that there's a particular political view, you better have or else. And or else in your case is there else you get suspended because a few people complain. That's what the hell's going on with the administration.

I don't understand what they're doing. I really don't understand. I can't understand why they didn't have the courtesy. Actually, I can understand why they didn't have the courtesy to call you. Because the sad truth is, is that as soon as a few people complain, everyone who isn't directly involved runs scared and looks for someone to sacrifice. Yes, I can.

How can I say it when you are not replied to the women part? My own sister is a is a journalist and defense women's rights in their root. And you know, there, you know, that women have a long journey, right, for equality. And yet my sister does not choose terms like, you know, that's, you know, toward men, that I don't know what to say, but in a constructive way, she does what she doesn't, that we may have had a post actually on that. So that's one thing.

The second thing is you're right. There is scapegoating maybe, but there is fear. People are afraid. And I am just... Well, the way to deal with fear isn't to offer someone up as a sacrificial victim and then to run hiding into the closet. That's not the way to deal with fear.

That all that does is feed the mob as far as I'm concerned, because now they've managed to go after your job successfully. I don't understand what sort of message is that sending to the students who went after you to begin with. What the message is, as well, if you organize yourself into a little mob and bully like mad, then you can make major administrations cow-tow to your political will, despite the fact that it massively disrupts someone in a sense life. Well, that's a hell of a message for an educational institution. Absolutely. And it's not just my life, my family, my small family, my larger family in Lebanon.

Like people are traumatized by that story. And there is a silent majority of students, or not like 97%. Yeah, like 97%. Yes, who are like you, thinking, what is that? And like me, but I'm calm. I take things calmly. And I think try to have to solve things and strategically and what to do

and not to do so. But I see around me how much people are affected and I am of course affected, but I mean I'm trying to find from this. Who was it exactly that sent you the note signifying your Well, it's not a secret. It's two administrators, but two particular persons. But for me, it doesn't, at that stage, it's all public. So all what I'm saying is not that I'm saying something that I'm not supposed to be saying. It's all public and those things. Well, it isn't, it isn't also, you know, so isn't clear what you're supposed to be saying and what you aren't supposed to be saying. I mean, you have every right to let people know what's going on. In fact, I think in some sense, you have an obligation to let people know what's going

on, right? And because, look, this isn't right. This isn't appropriate, especially given that you're protected by tenure. It's not appropriate anyways, but it's particularly not appropriate because you're hypothetically protected by tenure. It's not appropriate anyways, but it's particularly not appropriate because you're hypothetically protected by tenure. And so on what grounds were you suspended? I still don't understand what you did. What where's the evidence that you did something so reprehensible that a suspension was the appropriate response. Why didn't they say, at minimum, well, you can continue your teaching and we'll take a look at this, but given your stellar record and your loyal service for the last 13 years,

continue what you're doing, and we'll take a look at this, but we're on your side given your past behavior. Is there anything that's lurking back there that makes you nervous about your performance? No, but let me tell you something. What happened at Mount Alessandro University and is happening elsewhere, but particularly here, is a symptom of what is happening in our country or maybe beyond, actually.

So I take it like that. It's a symptom that we do have a serious problem, as you said, like tenured professors, not being able to express ideas, debate ideas, challenge students with ideas. We do have a big problem. Well, not only ideas, these, you're what you claim is not only what was commonplace, is commonplace among the vast majority of people in Canada, but was completely uncontroversial five years ago. It's not like you're pushing forward some radical ideas to question the idea that Canada is systemically racist. Let's take a look at that a little bit.

So when you move to Montreal, you're an outsider, you're an immigrant, what's your experience there? Did you make friends right away? Were you shunned? Were you prejudiced against in any particular way? What happened to you in Montreal? It was an amazing experience. Of course, sometimes you may meet someone who may say a word

that may sound like being racist. I say so. Like it's racist. Have the right to exist in a social, so-called racist, like myself. Have the right to exist in a society of so-called races like myself, have the right to exist in a community or a society. So what I'm trying to say is that it is normal in a society to have people who are truly for races or radicals, but the problem is when radicals start imposing their views instead of accepting that not everyone thinks the same.

Like, I consider myself as a classical liberal, historically I thought center left, but I don't like to put words. So center left, some people would say, why are you talking to Dr. Peters? Some people, most of the people I know would be jealous of me to be talking to you, you know, honesty, but some people would say, why are you talking, you know, being perceived as being too, you know, right left things? I don't care about sides. I'm going to tell you something about me and identity politics. When I move to Montreal, it's full of people of the same background as me. So if you take a cab driver, chances are the cab driver would be either of Haitian origins or Lebanese origins. So if you take a cab driver, chances are the cab driver will be either of Haitian origins or Lebanese origins. So sometimes when I open my mouth in French they can guess my accent

or realize we're both same background, start chatting. They ask me what are you from? And I can see their religious symbol in the car. It's actually, I share that same religion, but I would answer from Beirut, I am from Beirut, because it's general. They will say, where exactly in Beirut? I know where they will come to. And it's not because they are mean, because it's curious, it's built in them. They want to know which religion.

And me, I say, oh, the green light, near the green light, sorry, green light, you know, what I mean, like between East and West Beirut. So for me, my religion is personal, my, my whatever part of identity, it's no one's business. So it's like, it's, it's identities are complex, right? We have multiple, I don't, multiple, I don't know what I mean. But so, so that is how I've always approached things. And now that I'm seeing that if we say, if we denounce these things in our society,

we are being called racist, we are being called radicals, like it doesn't make any sense to my sense. So your experience when you went to Montreal, it was a positive one and you enjoyed living in the city and then you went off, you did well in C-Jap and in the upper echelons of high school and then you went off to University of Montreal. And you were successful there. Did you encounter anything that you regarded as systemic racism while you were in Montreal? No, not in Montreal, not in Toronto, not in New Brunswick personally. Of course, we know the history and history of

Canada and pockets of residue, all things that you know unfair and unjust. But you know, I think systemic racism or whatever we want to call it or diversity or things, we have to be careful not to be saying slogans and empty slogans. For me diversity, I live it. I live it because I allow myself to think, it will change my mind, my spouse is not of the same background as me, absolutely not. And so that's diversity, right? Diversity is I tolerate. I think you can be of that trend, we call it, because I'm why not, as long as you don't impose on me, or if you see what I mean, or you can be, you can be even, I'm thinking of religion now, not just Muslim, but Islamist, if you're not

doing something with it, if you see what I mean, to society. So my point is we have the right to think whatever we wish in a democratic society, in a free society, especially in universities, as you said, the lighthouse of knowledge, of exchange of ideas. And if it's there, it's getting dark, how would it be elsewhere? Have you been able to face any of your accusers? Do you know who they are? Were they former

students who were in your classes? Are they people who are hell bent on pushing an ideological agenda who virtually know nothing about you? Do you have an idea? I cannot speak to that part, but maybe I can say in general that some may, some may not, many not, many not, but I will just say that it is just so unfair, absurd. There is no word that I can describe. It's not because it's happening to me. Serial. Yeah, sorry, That's the word. Yeah, surreal.

No one should go through that. No one, for whatever reasons, think, you know. Okay, so let's talk about that for a minute. So back to that day that you knew that something was afoot. Exactly what happened. So a former student alerted you that something was up and you checked out Twitter and you saw accusations about your

character and about what you've written flying around on Twitter. And the people who were producing these accusations were parts of student organizations. What kind of student organizations were they part of? I think I can speak to that part because it's in the media. So divest was one of them, the last month, and another one was Black Student Association. And the other one, ironically, was the Rose Campaign. It's about the massacre at Polytechnic. And it means the world to me, Polytechnic is University of Montreal, right? So every year I commemorate, you know, I participate. So that one group was that group, saying that I encourage gender violence, sexual violence

and through my writing on the blog. So that was because you, because you were pointing out that such activity is not part and parcel of the central culture in Canada but in aberration. I was perhaps talking about honor killing in some places. So I read a media about a certain young woman who was getting on and I put a candle, memory,

and I wrote something, comment know, comment about that. So that's because I didn't, it's like, and how is it that you're glorifying sexual violence by doing that exactly? I have no idea. I wish I could answer, but I, Okay, so that particular accusation, not only, I've been thinking lately that there are about deception, the use of deception, and you know, there are lies that are just about true,

but they're just sort of, they're not quite true, and so you sneak them by because they're close enough to the truth, maybe to pass. But then there are lies that are the antithesis of the truth, antithesis of the truth, right? They're antitruths. And it seems to me that the accusations that you're glorifying sexual violence fall in the antithesis category of untruth. Not only is it a lie, it's the opposite of the truth.

Yes, but when it's about the blog, I can understand. I can understand. I can understand because they don't like it, they're emotional about it, they're right. I, I, I can understand, but when we come to talk about a behavior, a situation, an incident that has never happened, that is a different story. And then how do you separate out those two? I think it all came came the context of the complaints and the situation of the blog. And I, but I don't know for sure because I remember,

I didn't know how it started at the beginning. But, but logically, it came when through that, you know, the process of the, I call it speed-moving because it was like speed-dating. It was so fast, so it felt like, how can I say it, or respect, like having dogs coming at you all at once and so on. Yeah, so how about we call this assault?

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Look, I've watched lots of people respond to Twitter mobs over the last four years. And my experience has been that being mobbed by 20 people on Twitter, especially when an administrative organization then climbs in, that's enough to seriously damage someone. And most people climb back and apologize as fast as they possibly can.

And it's no wonder because it's very unnerving and destabilizing. And so you're someone who is obviously deeply opposed to such things as sexual exploitation, clearly and assault and the use of arbitrary violence. And nonetheless, you're targeted by precisely that kind of behavior. And then it's encouraged in every possible way as far as I can tell by the administration who immediately fold in the most cowardly of possible ways. And so I just, this is just, it's outrageous. And I can't understand why there isn't more noise about it. I can't speak. You're the wrong target. Clearly. Thank you. I can't speak for the motivation, but I can speak of not standing up for me where I see I saw the whole Canada stood up for me. writing amazing comments on the both fun me and people donating people like like like I I'm overwhelmed by that I see people standing up right right and I'm still into the thanking

thanking and I want to thank them if they're listening because I didn't have the time to complete on my personal I think you know to okay so so 10,000 people support you and 20 people complain, and yet the university suspends you. So like what the hell's up with that exactly? I mean, how come there's no proportionality of response? If the overwhelming body of the population is supportive of who you are, let's say, and what you've done,

which is nothing that deserves the kind of treatment that you've been through. Why isn't the university as sensitive to the public opinion supporting you as they are sensitive to the hypothetical public opinion, damning you? How do you understand that? Well, you said this was surreal, and I want to delve more into that. So we'll deal with the public opinion issue in a bit. So let's go back to that Monday. So this is starting to unfold. You see this Twitter mob developing. There's these

student factions, including people who are supporting causes that you support. So that's the, the, there was a massacre of six women at, at, at, at, in in Montreal about 20 years ago. And that's commemorated every December 6th, and that's one of these student organizations. You say you commemorate that as well. Absolutely. So you're actually, there's no reason for you to be perceived as someone who's antithetical to that particular cause. All right, so these students are organizing.

Do you even know if they're students? I don't know if I can answer that question, but maybe, yes, I think. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Well, it's still stunning to me that you don't exactly know who your accusers are. You don't know how many of them there are and you don't know exactly what it is that you've done wrong. And so what are you supposed to be doing in the intern? Are you supposed to be like re-examining your life? Don't you have to take deep diversity,

inclusivity and equity training? I think it's in the public so I can say it yes in the media. So that's mandated. It was written. So that, I'm not talking about something that is internal. I'm respecting all what I should be respecting, confidentiality of the process. But it's in the media. So I can say, yes, that is something that went to the student in an email and the stuff. Okay. So despite the fact that you haven't been, like, say convicted of any wrongdoing, you're required to take

diversity, inclusivity, and equity training. And that's despite your background, let's say. So what exactly, first of all, are you going to do that? And second of all, what exactly are you supposed to learn by doing that? What behavior do you think it is that, or attitudes, are you supposed to mend and alter? I'm going to tell you a story from my past when I was 14 and you can guess if I'm going you supposed to mend and alter? I'm going to tell you a story from my past when I was 14, and you can guess if I'm going to take it.

When I was 14, I think, yes, I was the delegate of the class in the root, and the group of armed men, heavily armed, you know, Kalashniyikov and Shaman. Came and said, we should go to students to upload to a certain politician, and I'm not meaning it doesn a matter, and I forgot who. So I stood up and I said, no, we are students. Our place is here, not to go for political ideology.

We're not going. And they insisted. Actually, they took all the students of all the schools around. And a friend of mine that I recently met in Meru told me, you know what, he, why you did not go? I said, she reminded me of the story. I went to hide in the washroom. I did not go with them.

So they were heavily armed and I did not go with them. I think I'm also, I think I'm a reasonable, flexible person. Had that been at the beginning, I would have perhaps considered perhaps going and listening, okay, or perhaps. But after all this, does it make any sense? That's all I'm gonna say.

It's like, I know that that's not just talk about my story because it's the symptom, it's happening across. It's like a, and it's in something to people who do not need to be taking such things, and it's an impulse. Yeah, and you might say that. I mean, you're a highly educated person. It's not easy to attain a faculty position. It's actually quite difficult, and only a minority of people manage it. You have to be smart and you have to be curious.

And you have to be at least a decent teacher. And you have to be a good researcher. You have to be able to work with people, your co-authors, your peers. You have to be efficient. It's a hard job. And then it's also a job that requires, and you also have a clinical background.

So you're actually technically social, socially skilled and highly trained. And then the question is, just exactly who the hell would be teaching the diversity, inclusivity, and equity course. So that'd be someone in all likelihood with the masters in social work who is going to lecture you on your ethical duty to others and assume that you are in a position that requires exactly that kind of education despite the fact of your advanced training. And that speaks to the motivation

behind this sort of thing as well, especially when it's forced. And because by forcing that on you and having you accept that, that's essentially an admission of your guilt and the necessity that you've come to realize for yourself that you need to be retrained by someone who holds those particular political opinions and that level of training. There's no evidence whatsoever. You likely know this as a psychological researcher

that any of this diversity, inclusivity, and equity training, any of this implicit bias retraining has any positive effects whatsoever. There's no evidence that the implicit association test that purports to measure implicit bias is a valid test. It certainly isn't accurate enough to be used for the purposes that it is being used for. It's turned into a political weapon. There's no excuse for it whatsoever. And the human resources departments that are pushing this sort of thing, it's reprehensible right to the core. And I can't believe that institutions are falling prey to the blandishments of those

who are pushing this. That's a pure power play to speak to motivation. So and it puts you in your place, which is exactly what's being hoped for, whatever that place is, since it's not even clear what it is that you did. Absolutely. I still don't know what it is that you did. Absolutely. I still don't know what it is that you did. But the thing that's so frightening is it doesn't really matter. Okay, so back to Monday. So Twitter was developing their student groups who are sending complaints about you to who. So both leads to the university to to, oh yeah, there's

the anti-racism policies. And then you may not say something, and I'm not sort of to be saying, it's anti-racism response policy. OK, so there's an administrative branch that the university set up to deal with anti-racism, let's say. So it's a political branch.

It's a politicized branch. And their job is to do exactly to you what they did do to you. And so those were the people who were complained to. What about your, your, your department? You mentioned political, but when it's a policy, it's an internal policy, like harassment policy and inter-accessive, yeah.

And there's an administrative bureaucracy that's associated with it. And this is a, this is an expression of their ability to fulfill their mandate, let's say, given that they're searching for things to do. And you're the sort of racist that they've decided to target, which shows you exactly how much useful activity there is lying around. If you're the sort of person they're going after, the racist set Mount Ell going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place.

There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place.

There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place.

There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people who are going to be in the right place. There is a lot of people have the right to be right, right, but real right? Or like it's too much, like we, I don't know what to say, because you can look at it from different angles. There's that political thing, that freedom, academic freedom definitely, but also free expression in the world, because societies look up to universities as a That's what if professors cannot talk cannot

communicate and and debate I don't I didn't see any student from my university writing on the blog. I saw someone who wrote and I replied on the blog, I saw someone who wrote and I replied, but not from the university, but no one. Like why don't they challenge that bambi and write and say it doesn't, you know, when it the story happened, it didn't happen. It could have been a platform for debate, for, you know, exchanging ideas. If you buy the line that people aggregate themselves into groups based on power and pursue their own selfish interest

within that group, there's no space for free debate between individuals. That's not part and parcel of the entire doctrine. It's not like there It's not like... There's no free speech within the confines of doctrines like that. That notion doesn't exist because there's no sovereign individuals, there's no exchange of rational information. There's no place for debate, so the whole issue of free speech is moot.

There's just power and the expression of power between different groups. And there is fear, because when you try to silence someone or isolate someone, people are all afraid. Yeah, well, I can't help but think that those who claim that social institutions are predicated on the arbitrary expression of power are precisely those who predicate their social behavior on the principle of power. And they misread everyone else. And I don't think there's any evidence at all

that well-socialized people who are functioning productively and cooperatively in society are basing their social interactions on the arbitrary expression of power. That isn't my experience with people, unless there's something wrong with them. And then they default to power in all their relationships. But there's no place for rational debate

in the ideological front that insists on such things as systemic racism. Okay, so Monday, back to Monday again, how long after these complaints arise, are you sanctioned? Are you, how long is it until you're told that you can't teach in the fall? I think I'm not talking about the details,

but there has been a process of course, the investigation and the report. And after that, the decision was that from unsuspended without pay from now until December 1st. And it's without pay as well. Without pay. And did the report suspending you without paid detail your hypothetical crimes? And that the report, the decision made based on the independent report.

And who was who made up this independent? Who generated this independent report? Maybe these things I can talk about because it would be part of our betrayation and all that, but I it's not that I don't want to chat with you. But I know I understand. But it's funny that the privacy of the people that are doing this to you is protected and your privacy isn't. I actually don't think that's funny at all.

And I suspect they're doing just fine with their continual salary payments and their lack of suspension over the next few months. So it seems like a pretty one-sided power play to me. You can't say anything. You're suspended. But they go to me. And yet they're protected.

Yes. And the media, the same story that is for us, has been repeated and recently has been repeated. So, yes, definitely, you're absolutely right. It's the false story. The false story, I think, because as in the media, I can talk about it. The false story is that I maybe, and just on that topic, that the student is saying that I did not want to use the pronouns of the student and that I said the student is brainwashed. And from what the discussion chat so far, you had with me or what you read or what my

values were, I told you about respect, would I ever tend someone these things in those terms. It's, I don't know the same. Well we already decided that it was surreal. It's surreal. It doesn't. Yes. No, no. Okay, so No, no, and yeah, okay, so Can I say something myself? Yeah, you can say anything you want. It's actually about that story of the Pronouns You know some people like to be called with pronouns some people don't like to be called from some people have pronouns after their name You don't I don't Some people and it's fine. know, when we want to be respectful. Yeah, it's not fine if it's insisted upon and the punishment is that if you don't use them, you lose your job. That's actually not the least bit fine.

I'll tell you more than that, then you're unhappy you said that because when your story came out, I listened carefully and I would, I would, I would, with my heart and actually, but we spoke about your book at one point and and attempt to try to cancel it. And so, so I listened, I listened to people's opposite, they were angry at you and all that on TV. And I thought, okay, what is going on here? And I told myself, I think he's seeing something, we're not seeing, you know, something when you talked about imposing control. I could see it because I come from a place

where I could see these things happening. So I saw it. At one point, I stepped back and I said, but isn't a big deal to refuse to. So when I was ahead, I thought, now. Yeah, well, believe me, I've had that thought many times. You were right. Now I can tell you, my story is the evidence

of how much you were right. I'll tell you why. Because I didn't even say it. If it's what can happen to you, even without saying it, if you see what I mean. I see what you mean. It's the same slouching monster that I saw five years ago. It's not amusing. It's not fun to see. I don't find it, I don't find

it, what would you say? reassuring to be right. I would rather have been wrong. I could see a power play and I could also see a corruption of the idea of identity. It's not that identity isn't merely what you feel you are at any given point. Identity is something you negotiate with others. You have to negotiate it with others because they have to know what the rules are. And if you can change the rules and make them arbitrary, at any point, then how can anyone play with you?

And maybe if you're setting up a game that no one can play, you're doing that because you're the one that has the problem with power, just maybe. And so maybe that's a club that can be then used on people if you're of the sort of the nature that wants to use a club. It's like why the hell are these people after you? You don't seem particularly harmful to me as far as I can tell. Thanks. You know, I mean your research is devoted towards helping people. You're an educator who's obviously

who's obviously, what would you say, motivated by the desire to teach young people and to bring them forward, not to exercise your arbitrary power over them, and yet you're targeted by this. So what's this done to you and to your family? What breaks my heart the most is my family in Peru. That's the one breaks my heart the most is my family in Peru. That's what breaks my heart the most. But of course, my spouse as well and all the friends and everyone. But my parents, they are in their 80s. They went through the Peru explosion. They survived it. There's the financial crisis.

There are implications. A lot of them, it's just too many people. And people who are just sad to see this happen. It is sad. It's sad. Yeah, it's sad. It is sad. And why sad?

Why do you say sad exactly? And the people that are responding to this, what's sad about it? I mean, you guys had your share of trouble in Lebanon. Because we are at that stage in Canada, it breaks my heart. Maybe the most to think that, like, I tell you the effect, one friend, a childhood friend, when she read the news about it and it, because it's all everywhere, it was in Spanish written somewhere, I don't know, she called me, they were thinking of immigrating to Canada, she said, I'm scared now, maybe

I should wait a little bit, maybe 11 on situation will get better. She said that. And I was like, I said a period of time, history, past, you know, I don't, but I said it's true that it is unimaginable. Like in Lebanon, we look up to the Canada, to the Western world if you want, or by extension, like we, Western world, if you want, or by

essentially, we, you know, people value democracy, people get killed sometimes when it's extreme because of their thoughts. But when people can say whatever they wish on Facebook, social media, I criticize, I don't know how to say it, but I criticize one powerful group, but not only everyone, but that powerful group so many times. And yet, I did not get that treatment from that powerful group there. And so what do you, what are your plans now? Your life has been thrown up in the air.

I mean, you must have been going through your teaching career with a fine-tooth comb trying to figure out, if you did, I mean, what's really horrible, if something like this happens to you? If you're a decent person, is that you torture yourself to death about what your guilt might be. person is that you torture yourself to death about what your guilt might be. Yeah, but you know, as I said, like my, my, people around me are losing sleep. I, I, I'm not yet. I was gonna happen, but not yet. I, because you know what?

I think when we know ourselves, we know the truth. It's like no matter what you're gonna be reading about you, this is not you. Like you are you, Dr. Peterson, I know you, from already and I hear, but you talk to me, it's not what people would say. You don't nasty things, sometimes you went through difficult times, some people would say he deserves them. Like I get out of my mind when I see someone saying that to anyone,

but particularly to you for all what you did that went through and all that. So it's just sad, again, I'm saying, we've got to that stage in Canada where we don't want to listen. Why can't I say, what is the meaning of, let's say systemic racism, because you mentioned it. What does it mean? As a scientist, we define, you know, we measure, we chat about concept, we write reviews like concept analysis, we talk to stakeholders, literature, all that. So why can't we say, okay, what are we talking about here? Where does it come from? Where is it imposed on us from, you know, I think I

have some hotness with my expertise, but I just know that it's, why can't you say it? Like, is it a dogma? Is it an idea? What is it? Why can't we... I think it's a claim. I think it's a claim. The fundamental claim is quite straightforward, I think. I think the claim is that people who hold positions of authority, first of all, there aren't positions of authority. There are positions of arbitrary power. And the people who hold those, so all hierarchical societies are based on positioning of arbitrary power.

And that power serves that hierarchy and the people within it. It exploits those at the bottom of the hierarchy. It exploits those on the outside of the hierarchy. If you hold one of those arbitrary positions of power, then you got it through ill-gotten means. And that's the fundamental claim of systemic racism. Or that's what's underlying. It's not the fundamental claim of systemic racism, exactly. It's more like the fundamental claim of systemic racism, or that's what's underlying. It's not the fundamental claim of systemic racism, exactly.

It's more like the fundamental claim of the ideology that generates slogans like systemic racism. And it's part of the assault on the idea of merit. And so I was writing about that today. I mean, the things that you can tell me what you think about. Let's look at hiring practices at Canadian universities, for example. Okay, so my sense is being this, I've said on many, many hiring committees,

the first is that they're extremely merit-based. So the first thing that the typical committee does is they rank order candidates and there's like 100 candidates for every position that's awarded. So there's a plenty of people to choose from. They look at publications, quality of publications because as a professor, one of the things you're supposed to do

is generate publications. So if you're a graduate student and you generated many high quality publications, that's a good predictor that you're going to do the same thing in the future. They look at teaching ability. That would be secondary at most places, especially if they're research oriented. It'd be more primary at a teaching-oriented university. So teaching ratings from students,

so the stakeholders have a say in that, that's a powerful say. And then also evidence of interpersonal ability. So you look at letters of reference and so on, documenting the candidate's ability to be a good colleague and to get along with people and not to be a troublesome thorn in the side, let's say for arbitrary reasons. And so those are perfectly reasonable hiring criteria. They have nothing to do with the maintenance of the power

of any particular group. And then there's even more than that because once the candidate pool has been winnowed out, the probability that a university hiring committee is going to give preferential treatment to someone who's qualified within that pool, but who shows, who's, let's say, a member of a group that's been historically disadvantaged to use all this bloody terminology. The probability that that person is going to get more than a fair shake is very, very high. And that's been the case for at least 30 years.

And it isn't clear to me that that's always been for the best, but nonetheless, that's the situation. So to think about those institutions, Canadian universities, American universities too, for that matter, as somehow being predicated on arbitrary power is, it's not again, it's not a lie, it's an anti-truth, it's exactly the opposite of the real situation.

And you know, you might say, you look at Canada, I know one of your crimes was suggesting that among countries, rather than among the hypothetical utopian visions of ideologically-addled students, Canada does pretty damn well by historical standards and by current world comparative standards. And you might say, well, there's still detrimental behaviors that are embedded within the culture. But in the case of university hiring committees, it isn't obvious to me how they could possibly be more fair than they are.

They strive so hard to be fair that they bend over backwards at least to some degree in the opposite direction. And so, so, OK, so you didn't attain your position as a consequence of some arbitrary expression of power. You're actually qualified to do the job that you have. And yet you're going to be mandated to take diversity, inclusivity, and equity training. You know, I've been thinking for a long time where the line is that divides the reasonable

left from the unreasonable left. And it's certainly equity conceived as equality of outcome. When you push that line, that's too far. But I think the whole diversity, inclusivity, and equity, slogan, mantra, people who mouth that and push it, they've gone too far. That's the line right there. And you can tell that because it's being imposed

by fiat on people like you. I agree. It's actually, it breaks my heart that the left has been the beautiful left that I know, high jack type of thing, but that movement that is radical and saying, it's really realistic. But I don't think it's just the left that it's spreading, but I mean that left that I would think the rights of workers, the rights of immigrant, I'm thinking that whatever movement is using,

that's my personal opinion and maybe how it would get shot at for saying it. Well, you've already been shot at, so now you can say what you want. Yeah, so I think that it's... How can I say it? It's not because someone is of my same background, precise place where I came from, religion, whatever, that that person would represent me better than someone else who

is more competent, as you said, who makes more sense. Right. Well, that's an insane part of this doctrine to begin with. The idea that these arbitrary groupings, your gender, your sex, your race, means that you have something more profound in common, for example, than with people who share more different differentiated elements of your character, your ambition, your values more importantly. Yes, and I'll tell you, in Lebanon, they have quotas of based on religion, I get obsessed with religion, to be a president, to have to be Christian, Maraday, to be Prime Minister, Sunimazna,

etc. etc. So I cannot be a president there, not a specific part of whatever, not Prime Minister. So all this is that the people of Lebanon right now are saying no to sectarianism. They know it didn't work. It was unfair. They don't want it. Whereas here, we are trying to bring that to us here.

There is a reason where all our collective agreements But as here, we are trying to bring that to us here. There is a reason why all our collective agreements protect merit, try to merit, and you set merit based hiring and all that. I do believe personally that it is insulting for me to tell me that I'm gonna get a job because I am Lebanese or I am this or that. What's particularly insulting if you're qualified?

Absolutely. So it is particularly insulting if I'm qualified definitely. And so to come to tell me that, let's say, if we've got to talk about one part of the identity you mentioned gender, but it could be, let's say, skin color, right? So what does someone from Palestine who happens to have a black skin,

have in common with the President of the United States, a former president, who happens to have a, do they have in common like, or someone from Haiti driving a cabin, Montreal? Like, you know, there's culture, there's language. Well, look, as social scientists, we could agree that one of the factors that might give people some similarity of experience would be race or ethnicity, right? I mean, it, but it's one factor among many. Yes.

And if I was writing today about what predicts success in complex Western organizations? Okay, so what predicts success if you look at it psychometrically? So you break down all the attributes of people and you decide which measurable attribute would be associated with socioeconomic position, let's say. Well, the best two predictors are general cognitive ability, which is basically ability to learn and to deal with complex abstractions and that predicts performance in high complexity jobs

and high complexity jobs involve a lot of change and necessity for learning. So ability to learn and ability to solve complex problems predict success in jobs that require the ability to learn and the ability to deal with complex situations and that's measurable SATs measure that GREs measure that the LSATs measure that and they don't measure it perfectly But they measured better than anything else we know. And the other thing that predicts universally, in some sense, across job categories, is conscientiousness, and that's hard work, essentially, industrialistness, orderliness, but industrialistness predicts better. So amount of hours put in, the ability to formulate, ability and willingness to formulate

and maintain social contracts. So there's honesty and integrity associated with that. So the research literature indicates that the best predictors of success are ability to learn and conscientiousness. It's like, well, come up with a better definition of merit than that if you dare, because you can't. Now, openness to experience, which is a creativity trait,

predicts entrepreneurial ability and creative ability. And extroversion predicts sales ability and agreeableness predicts, say, nursing and the capacity to take care of people. There are other personality attributes that are relevant, but those are the main ones. So how is that not just dead set evidence for the existence of as functional meritocracy

as we've been able to manage, right? I mean, it's distorted by power claims. It's distorted by deception and bad hiring practices and nepotism and all the things. But that's not central or core to the system. I don't know any reasonably well-functioning organization in the West that's where that isn't the case. Businesses as well bend over backwards to be more than fair in their hiring practices. And they want competent people,

and you can define competence, and you can define and measure merit. Of course. And like I think what's at the basis of all of this radical critique is an assault on the idea of merit itself. And I can understand that, because talents are unfairly distributed.

And in the end it will lower the standards of the society. Well, that's the thing, you know, if you look at this, maybe you're cold-hearted and you look at this purely from, and imagine you even manifested a critique from the left. You really think that corporations aren't concerned enough about their own survival to do everything they possibly can to select the most competent people. Obviously, they're going to do that. And it's actually of benefit to everyone else. Because what's the alternative?

Random selection? If you're put into position that you're not qualified for, you're going to fail. That is not very positive for you. It's no mercy to put someone somewhere where they're going to fail. Absolutely. That's not helpful.

We see all these selection processes now being subject to critique. Universities are abandoning standardized tests. They don't know the literature, the people who are doing this. They're going to replace them with selection mechanisms that are far more pathological. I was talking with one of my colleagues, for example. So among the universities that abandoned the GRE,

graduate record exam for graduate student entrance, what happened was that those students who came from elite universities had a much higher probability of being accepted than they did when the GRE was part of the package, because the GRE actually equalized across universities. So you throw it out and what happens is those who had the fortune to go to a prestigious university have a much bigger advantage. That's exactly what's going to happen when we throw out valid measures of competence. I have a question.

I agree with you on that. And we have a sort of hyperinflation of grades, like with some currency, we get to that maybe, like what happened in Lebanon, hyperinflation, we will get inflation at one point, I guess. But for the grades as well, I understand the reflex of some to say, oh, it's the pandemic to hell, but I'm thinking that it would help.

My point was during war in Lebanon, in twice, I had to do two years and one. So we'd have seven chapters of math at once, five of physics, I took a chop, like two years and one, never, ever, they did what we are doing here, you know, like removing the grades, doing some it was, it remained thorough, 15 years of civil war. And so that was my experience, but I'm, of course, it's a decision, a group decision, or they're not talking, but I'm I'm saying that when I think about that, I agree.

So now you're in limbo. Like what faces you now? What's in the future for you? Is it a tribunal? Like how are you going to be tried for your crimes? The arbitration. So I saw the arbitration process and whatever other processes. So I can't answer that because right now I don't know. It's a developing fast. So you don't even know the process

by which this is going to be remediated. Oh, I know, of course, the orientation, like the right boat. So what does that mean, practically speaking? Right. What what what do you have to do and what's going to happen to you? I we will see, but I know that whatever step that is being done that is not right, there has been agreements for it. That's all I can say because that I can speak to, but not the details.

So. Okay, so is your union supporting you? Yes, and I'm grateful. Okay, well thank God for that. So they've decided they'll support you on what grounds? I cannot speak for the details that may be harming the arbitration without knowing, but I can tell something that really anyone reading that blog, I'm thinking like, how is that?

Like, it's, it's, it's, there are so many angles to it. But definitely like the blog, the freedom, the academic freedom, but that I, I can speak to because that's what I, I think so as well, but there are other things that I will not be talking about right now. And when does this arbitration process begin? And I mean, you're on the hook at least till January of 2022? December, the first, yes, December the first for the suspension part and also when that didn't go public

but also like how am I going to you know like suspension but also nothing able to be on campus, for example. So can you not be on campus? No. Maybe that I would have... It's not secret, but it's sharing something. So are you forbidden to go on the campus? Well, it's part of the things that you're suspended from being paid, so not on campus, yes. Okay, what happens if you go on campus? Do you know? not on campus, yes. Okay, what happens if you go on campus?

Do you know? Well, we had municipal elections lately and I joked to myself saying, what if had been on campus, what do I do? It's a legal problem, I guess, or whatever problem it is. But I... And so what are the grounds for not allowing you

to be on the campus? I guess I'm toxic maybe or maybe that part of it. It's because you presented danger. Danger, unsafe to. Right, right, so that makes sense. So now you're an unsafe person. And so you can't go on the campus because of the threat that you might pose to students.

Yes. How are your colleagues responding to this? Well, again, I can't speak for them, but I can speak in general. I can say in these situations when they happen, some people will come forward, some people will be afraid. I understand that people are afraid. I totally understand because we're different, right? We react differently.

We may come forward to support me or do something, but some people will not because they have family, a family of children. Yeah, well, not coming forward is not going to protect them. If this can happen to you, like the lesson here, there's only two lessons here. Either you're a bad person and you got exactly what you deserved, or this can happen to anyone and so look the hell out.

I totally agree and I tend to stand up for people, no I stand up for people in real life but also on the blog. I write when something is in for example, I'm to think of quickly a situation, maybe Dr. Matubokute in Montreal, whenever he has stories like being canceled or trying to attempt as a or maybe Dr. Gatza, again for Montreal, I know, friends. I said bravo to the Jewish public library. Library.

Yeah, because they, they, so to. And even the prime minister of Quebec, I may have had a post saying bravo, the University of Laval, I may have a post saying Bravo, the University of Laval as well, you know saying that academic freedom must be protected like the academic, I mean, it's protected. So that, I mean, I was a recommitment to it,

if you see what I mean. So look at the academic, the bulk of the abstract intellectual work in our society goes on at university. So that's where the cutting edge is. It's not the only place. There's, it happens in many places, but it's one of the main places.

It's certainly the main place where training for that is still instituted, at apprenticeship for that is still instituted. And so if that comes under assault, if that's in danger, then what's to protect the same thing in the rest of the culture? If it goes where it's paramount, if it's threatened where it's paramount,

it's going to be threatened everywhere. And that's why people should pay attention to what's happening to you. And it should put as much pressure as they possibly can on the administration at Mount Ellison to reverse their insane decision and to have some courage instead of cow towing to a tiny minority of students who don't even represent the communities they purport to represent. You know, my guess is is if we took those and it'd be easy enough to find out, but no one will do it.

If we surveyed these student organizations, presented them with your story and surveyed them, I suspect that the vast majority of students within those organizations themselves would be appalled at what's been done to you. So there's a handful of students who say they represent a tiny proportion of students, but who actually don't, who complain bitterly in the background and use deception to bring

administrative force to bear on someone like you, and somehow that's okay. And despite the fact that thousands of people express their support for you, the university won't change its mind. And for what? To indicate their commitment to what? To this insane ideology that purports to be anti-racist, you can see how far it is in your case. You know, we're matching an actual injustice against a bunch of hypothetical injustices. Yes, and my take on it was at the beginning that, okay, they chose whatever path I've not, but no, I am like the target because of all all of this. If you see what I mean, like, you're a target, not just a target, you've also been hit.

You're not just a target. Exactly. You've been successfully hit. You're not just a target. Exactly. You've been successfully hit. Exactly. Like when you are a researcher, when you are a faculty member, doing your research, your services across the province and the country, new reputation, even if you want to go find another job somewhere else, your reputation is all what you have, right?

Your reputation is done. Look, the other thing is, I'm on, you're on hiring committees, I've said on hiring committees. So here's another rule about hiring committees. And so, given that there's a preponderance of candidates and that there's a preponderance of qualified candidates, any and all candidates who show any sign whatsoever of scandal are immediately removed from the pack.

Because the hiring committees won't tolerate the risk. So as soon as you've been brushed with scandal, and then here's another question for it, because I've had to think this through, and I'm still not exactly sure what to make of it, I could go back to the University of Toronto. What about my graduate students? What bloody chance do they have on the job market? It doesn't matter about their publication rates. So let's say they come out with a stellar publication,

but they're associated with me. It's like, are they going to find a job? Well, the answer to that is perhaps not. And so what am I supposed to do with that as a moral person? Am I supposed to not go back to the university because merely being associated with me is enough to increase the probability that my qualified students won't be acceptable to any hiring committee. These shots are unbelievably effective, even if you can manage them. And it's not obvious that you can manage them. I mean, you're still

going through this. You have months to go without gainful employment, you know, and the doubts creep in when you're accused of this sort of thing because anybody with any sense pays attention to accusations, right? If you're psychopathic to the core, you don't care what other people think, but if you're a reasonable person, you're modifying your behavior all the time as a consequence of the effect you have on others. You're modifying your behavior all the time as a consequence of the effect you have on others. So, well, I'm reprehensible enough so an institution that I admired deeply has been. And I'm meant to. Yeah. And the whole Canada, right?

But I want to say something, you know, some people believe what they read and they do not, you know, question or apply, say, let's listen to the other side. Let's see what happened. Some even, you know, friends would call my husband and say, well, even if it has been said, it's too much, but my spouse will say, she has not said it. Like, so, so, so they thought, because it's written in such a way that is, yeah, well, you know what they say, where they're smoke, there's fire. Exactly, but let's assume, like people are saying even like the method,

the, how can I say, the punishment or the discipline or is beyond is surrealist, disproportionate, disproportionate, and severe, which is certainly is. Yes. So, what do you do now? What are you doing? I mean, how have you been structuring your life in the aftermath of this? I've never imagined that we can be working as hard as that without having a big suspended, without pay. I'm very busy in working, doing what I need to do, trying to email, trying to keep people strategizing, doing things, working, basically, on that. So, like, all that time, I'm not putting it on my research. I'm not putting it on future courses if I'm still here or on that. So it's,

I'm living day by day, but I am fine in the sense that I know, I know who I am, I know my values, I know the value of freedom, free expression for me, academic freedom, slash, that I know for sure. One of my friends once said the truth doesn't matter anymore because it has been a narrative, but luckily there has been amazing journalists who have had more, I'm not going to be naming, but everyone knows, had more, more than I can very much like I felt that like, you know, those articles fell on me from heaven. So the narratives has shifted. And if you see what I mean,

yeah, yeah, well, I was fortunate enough to have some of Canada's preeminent journalists, take a second look what I was doing and actually think it through. And come out and support of me, thank God for that. Yes. And that was definitely a life saver, repeatedly over time. So thank you. Absolutely. It's thank God there are people who still

want to know what the actual story is. So well, is there anything else that you, let's let's talk about your colleagues again, you said that have any of your colleagues in the Department of Mount Ellison made a public statement of support for you? Public statement, I'm not. Yeah, public statement. Sorry to put you on the spot, but you know, this is an important question. It's a very important question. If the people right next to you who know you and who have worked with you are so afraid that they can't say this is not right Collectively, which is what they should have done. They should have come together as a group, as a faculty, and said, you go after her, you go after all of us. But that isn't what's happening. And so this divide and

conquer strategy works just fine, because you can single someone out of the crowd and go after them and know and everyone else shies away. Very good question, but I think part of it, they must be shocked right now. Part of it is how, you know, I'm not talking about the inverse in my story, the university is these investigations are probably the confidential, so like no one knows.

And me, without things being confidential, I tend to be discreet. I do not talk or bet talk about people. My colleagues know very well. It's not my style. I focus on my task. I do what talk or bet talk about people. My colleagues know very well. It's not my style. I focus on my task. I do what I need to do my family. They know I don't like blah blah blah. I tend to be more aggressive. Directly when I have to, if I have to, like now, you know, that fight, but not when I don't, like how can I say it it so I don't do that passive aggressive and talking and all that yes I got kindness indirectly but without it being said

and throughout like the work that we are doing all that work and all this but they didn't know where I was going through probably or maybe they knew or I don't know there's fear definitely not at my institution, there's fear in the province, fear again. Yeah, well, you know, fear is justified as far as I'm concerned, but you better bloody well be sure you're afraid of the right thing. And, you know, it's one thing to be afraid

of making a public statement say in support of you, and to be afraid of the consequences of that, say, in support of you, and to be afraid of the consequences of that. Although, if every single one of your faculty colleagues did that, the university would buckle instantly and apologize to you. But if they, okay, so they're afraid of doing that, and they're afraid of, each of them individually is afraid of spearheading that. But why aren't they more afraid of ending up where you ended up? Well, the logic is, well, she was incausious. She wrote her blog. She said things that a

sensible person shouldn't say. So that means that now they're doomed to only say those things that a sensible person would say under such conditions, which is to say absolutely nothing about anything which is to say absolutely nothing about anything controversial ever again in their entire careers. Exactly. Why not be afraid of that instead? Exactly. And it comes down to other situations where let's say someone is a victim of sexual harassment or something where we can blame the victim or say, oh, the person was wearing something.

Maybe you know what I mean? So maybe it's a way of saying she she did it to herself because she's... Yeah. Well, that's the only other alternative. Yes. But definitely, if it happened to me, it may and it could and it would happen to anyone, not just at my institution, it's definitely, and no one should be going through that. Not you, not me, not anyone.

No one. Anything else? I want to say thank you for that platform. I think so highly of you. And as I said, some people would say, why did she talk to Dr. Peterson? Maybe she was a doctor, I want to thank everyone who went public that I'm reading to say something.

And I think people that I didn't have the chance to already send my thanks, they know I made a post about that. But thank you to everyone, Mesh. Yeah, well, you know, the other thing about who you choose to talk to in situations like this is that you choose to talk to in situations like this is that you choose to talk to people who will talk to you. Exactly. I got to. And then you find out pretty damn quickly who will talk to you and who won't.

And so people might ask why you would come and talk to me, but part of the answer to that is because all actually talk to you. And so you know, you you find out who supports you and who doesn't and why they do and why they don't. And so, you know, you find out who supports you and who doesn't, and why they do, and why they don't. And so, and then that any criticism of that just becomes a further excuse to maintain silence when silence shouldn't be maintained. Like, I'm appalled at your colleagues to speak frankly. I'm absolutely appalled at their silence on this issue. If they had an ounce of courage, they would unite together, and they would tell the administration to back the hell off right now or else. And the fact that they won't do that is it's appalling.

And if they think that that's not going to come out of cost, then they've got their head buried in the sand in a way that requires a fair bit of intellectual gymnastics to manage, a fair bit of avoidance of the topic, avoidance of thinking it through. It's like, look what happened to Rima. Oh, well, she probably asked for it.

You know, she wasn't as cautious. Yeah, that's the conclusion you're gonna draw, hey, you think that's not gonna have an impact on your own behavior? If they, if they banded together behind you, this would be over right away. The university would buckle. And the people who sanctioned you would be fired,

which is what exactly what should happen. There's no excuse for what happened to you whatsoever. You know, and I've counseled a lot of people in my clinical practice who've been accused of all sorts of things. And one of the things I've learned is that it's very, very difficult for people to mount their own defense. You know, especially decent people because they get accused of something and then they

don't attribute to themselves the innocence that our legal system demands, right? Innocent until proven guilty. It's like, well, you try to apply that to yourself if you're accused. You'll find it's not so easy. You know, and I would say in your case, well, not only are you innocent, but this is an anti-truth campaign. It's not like, well, you sort of did some things wrong and maybe you should be more careful in the future. It's like, no, you had a blog.

You said some things on it that you had to say. They weren't reprehensible things. You have every right to do that. And maybe you even have an obligation to your creative spirit and to your desire to communicate and to formulate and clarify your thoughts, right, in a public forum where you can get some feedback and share your ideas with others, which is what you have to do if you're going to think. And so you're not just innocent, You're targeted in a manner that speaks

of the true motivation behind the targeting, which is to take people like you down. And that's what's happened. Exactly. And your colleagues, they should hang their head in shame and associate the university. It's absolutely appalling that one of Canada's finest undergraduate institutions

should be participating in this bloody, awful witch-hunt charade. Can I add something? Final thing is I totally agree with you, but that's Bambi or Mirima. Defended people, I don't agree with, like on some topics, like for example someone, a great professor of law, and I will name because you can read it if you want. Dr. Amir Atara, he talks about Kubak in some words that I'm not very fond of, but I defended his right and I thanked Mr. Tudou for having said, you know, Kubak bashing whatever. So that's story, but I may like other posts he does and I read him, if he's listening, if you will ever listen,

I do read his Twitter, I read, I read all, the I learned that from war. I used to read all the news on all sides. And not saying I read only this because you become, you know, like it's a brainwash type of thing if you want during war when you're only reading your side and you're not reading the other media, the other sites. So that was one way of coping that I did,

is learning to read and build my own thinking. And this is what I do now. I read those whom I don't agree with before reading those I agree with. I defended maybe politicians who are not very faked, like because they have been silenced on social media. I may have said no one should be silenced,

no one, not any politician or scholar, no citizen, no one. If you can only defend those who you agree with, who are you going to defend? Exactly. You don't even agree with yourself all the time. You change your day from mind to mind. Exactly. You change your day from mind to mind. Exactly. You change your mind from day to day.

That's what I know. Exactly. So it's, of course, unacceptable. But I do understand that people are afraid sometimes because they may have kids or dependant. Yeah, they should be afraid. I agree with you, Reema. I agree with you. I agree with you.

But the issue is, what should you be afraid of? Should you be afraid of defending your colleague? Or should you be afraid of the arbitrary power handed to half-wit student mobs, hell-bent on bullying and destruction, who are presenting themselves in the guise of moral avatars? Like, those are the people you should be afraid of. And cowardly administrators who cow-tow instantly

to any complaint no matter how groundless because they don't want to appear as sensitive as they might. Those are the things to be afraid of. So fear actually isn't a defense because the fear justifies a kind of willful blindness that is not going to help us in this situation. No. that is not going to help us in this situation.

Well, I hope that you find the continuing courage to be outraged on behalf of your innocence and to go after and to not merely defend yourself, but to do it in an aggressive manner and to bring the people who've done this to you to something approximating justice. And that might include the students too, because it isn't obvious to me that they deserve to avoid sanction as a consequence of their actions. Why in the world should they be allowed to destroy someone's life? No, everyone must be, we all must be held accountable for our actions. So those actions have consequences.

What they did to me is, as we said to Realistic, let's leave it there, but I totally agree with you. And all options should be considered in a battle like that, I would say. So if people want to write letters of support for you, who should they go to? The chairman of your department, who should they be sent to? I think maybe everyone, maybe the higher administration, maybe the union copy, the union copy everyone, copy, I got copies of letters, a lot of letters from day one in February and right now, even someone, a childhood friend from Lebanon on the wrong road.

How many letters do you think have been written to the university in support of you? I'm still into the thinking and replying a lot. I'm still seeing my emails, but who knows? Is it hundreds? I can put an accurate number, but a lot, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, because some things are being done also without it being letters, but trying to push with other organizations. So there are things that I'm hearing about people saying that they are doing them or from other universities I'm hearing. There is a big movement and that fundraising campaign and so I'm overwhelmed by the support. And again, I want to thank everyone. I want to you discover from it happened to you.

Discover people, you know, you know, you know, you're friends. Of course, but you discovered people that you would never remember that would have that courage to do what they did. It's, it's an amazing experience, let's say, to say the least. Well, we'll put the relevant links for want to be letter writers in the description of the video so that they can do that. Yes, and you do discover, that's the thing.

You discover the pervasiveness of fear, first of all, and the fact that so many people, and perhaps the majority of people, allow misplaced fear to silence them in the short term and pay and pay and pay and pay for that in the medium to long term. And that's a terrible thing. But you do discover that there are people who have so much courage, you can hardly believe it. Well, I wish you the best of luck dealing with this. Thank you so much for having me and please keep doing what you do and I'm a fan. I follow you the best of luck dealing with this. Thank you so much for having me. And please keep doing what you do.

And I'm a fan. I follow you. Thank you, Dr. Kassi. That's probably not in your best interest, but I can appreciate it. Oh, yes. I don't care. Remember, I'm not politically correct. So I do read you and I do listen and I appreciate.

Thank you. Thanks very much. It was painful, but very good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much. It was painful, but very good to talk to you. Thank you. Good care. Thank you. you