The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 195. Enhanced Interrogation Techniques | Mohamedou Ould Slahi

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Mohamedou Ould Slahi was detained at Guantanamo Bay without charge for 14 years. His best-selling memoir ‘Guantánamo Diary: The Fully Restored Text’ and movie ‘The Mauritanian’ are available now.Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:Helix Sleep: Go to www.Helixsleep.com/Jordan for $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows.Dr. Jordan Peterson’s guest Mohamedou Ould Slahi shares his experience with more than a decade of torture and depression in Guantánamo Bay. Mohamedou starts with his childhood and guides us through his journey across Germany and Canada. The life-changing phone call and his hard-to-hear torture sessions are shared as he explains the change he experienced in his beliefs. Check out this episode to listen to how his 14 years of pain ended.Mohamedou Ould Slahi was detained for 14 years at Guantanamo Bay detention camp without charge. Though the Mauritanian citizen continued journaling while imprisoned, the U.S. government declassified it. In January 2015, the diary became an international bestseller and a 2021 drama film titled “The Mauritanian”.Read Mohamedou’s memoir: http://guantanamodiary.com/ Watch the trailer of The Mauritanian on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJSjln30BQFollow Mohamedou on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mohamedouould -Subscribe to the “Mondays of Meaning” newsletter here: https://linktr.ee/DrJordanBPetersonFollow Dr. Peterson: Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/JordanPetersonVideos Twitter - https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson Instagram - https://instagram.com/jordan.b.peterson Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drjordanpeterson Website: https://jordanbpeterson.com/Visit our merch store: https://shop.jordanbpeterson.com/Interested in sponsoring this show? Reach out to our advertising team: [e-mail]

Hello and welcome to season four episode 49 of the Jordan Peterson podcast in today's episode dad spoke with Muhammadu old Slahi a Mauritanian who is held by the US for 14 years without charge or trial at Guantanamo Bay If you've heard of the Mauritanian movie then this episode will give you an exclusive insight Into the torture sessions he endured the depression depression he went through, and how he journaled up until the moment he was released, and that was part of what got him out of Guantanamo Bay. I had Mahamadu on my podcast and had to get him on Dad's.

This is a story everyone should hear. This is one of the most positive people out there. If you're feeling sorry for yourself about something, and you want a reminder of why that's not helpful, give this guy a listen. I hope you guys have a good week and enjoy the episode. If you do enjoy it, please remember to hit subscribe. This episode is brought to you by Helix. If you want to start your day on a good note, then you definitely should be getting a good night's sleep. I moved to Franklin Tennessee, which I'm actually leaving because I'm allergic to everything green green. But I did get to buy a new Helix mattress. Midnight Lux, my favorite.

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You don't have to go to the store. Just go to helixleap.com slash Jordan. Take their two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep of your life. Helix has a 10-year warranty. You get to try it out for 100 nights risk-free. They'll even pick it up for you if you don't love it, but you will. He looks even has financing options and flexible payment plans, so a great night's sleep is never

very far away. He looks is offering up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at helixleap.com slash Jordan. That's helixleap.com slash Jordan. This is my favorite mattress out there, hands down. I'm speaking today with Muhammad Uld Salahi, born December 21, 1970, who spent 14 years in Guantanamo Bay without being charged, arriving August 4, 2002, released October 17, 2016. He wrote a memoir in 2015 while still imprisoned. The US government declassified it in 2012 with numerous reductions. It was the first work by a still imprisoned Guantanamo detainee. Published in 2015 became an international bestseller. It

details Salahe's experience of being force-fed seawater sexually molested, subjected to a mock execution repeatedly beaten, kicked and smashed across the face. And all spiced with threats that his mother would be brought to Guantanamo and gang raped. Prison officials prevented Salahi from receiving a copy of his published book. The Mauritania in a film adaptation of the memoir was released on February 12th this year, directed by Kevin McDonald, and starring Jodie Foster to hire Rahim, Benedict Cumberbatch, and Shailene Woodley. He's been living in Mauritanian since his release.

He reattained his passport last year and has been attempting to gain permission to travel, not least to Germany to see his son. Thank you so much for inviting me today in your program. And I feel truly honored to talk to you and to your audience. My name is Muhammad W. I come from Mauritania. I was born Mauritania. I was born in the South. My father was a camel heard.

I don't know any father of mine who wasn't a camel heard of sort. And my dream was to grow to be a herd, just like my father. But this dream was cut short because of the successive drought that hit the country in the 70s and the 80s. So all our camels died out. So died, I mean. And we had only very few that couldn't sustain the life of a big family.

So we are 12 siblings from the same father and the same mother. So my mother decided single-handedly to move the family against the will of my father near the city for the children to find jobs and just to make a livelihood because my father was hanging on a dream that would never materialize. So he was living in this fantasy that he could recuperate but that's happening. How many camels did your father have and you were living in a rural area at that point, obviously. Yes.

So, I heard, so when I, the thing I remember, it's like a dozen, a little bit of a dozen, and then they became fewer and fewer. So when my father died when I was 11, we had only like several, maybe three, four. And how did you survive? I mean, how is it possible for a family of that size to survive with that limited supply of livestock? What what what's the family doing in order to keep to keep everything together? So my father my mother decided that the kids need to abandon this lifestyle and find jobs in the cities. So my oldest brother went to Senegal across the border. We were just at the border, south and border to Senegal. And I was seven at that time.

This was 78. And then the other kids found a job at Baycris, and just to make ends meet. So we have the same plate. So we all contribute. They couldn't find a job for me because I was very weak and very small. Then the second best thing they sent me to school. And it was by accident, and I didn't have a birth certificate. So they, I went to the school, the principal said he doesn't have a birth certificate, but I accept him.

And I want you to give me birth certificate. That's why you see my birth certificate has different birth dates, sometimes no birth dates, sometimes 30, sometimes 21, sometimes 1, 1. So anyway, and then I fell in love with school because I just loved it. And I remember this very hard day, very hard. When we say hard in Mauritania, it's really hard. And the school was, I just went the other day and I measured the distance. It was about two kilometers, that is over one mile. And I used to walk this distance back and forth twice a day, because we have the morning class from 8 to 12, and the afternoon class from 3 to 5.

So, meaning I walk every day at least eight kilometers, about six miles every day. And I didn't have shoes. And I remember running and then my feet burned like beyond the description, then I would go to structures and the few trees to cool them down. And then on my way, this, our neighbor, which was like doing well, she stopped me and started scolding me, telling me why didn't you wear usuals. And then started telling me this is really really bad, and you should always worry about your shoes.

And I was burning. She was talking to me and I was burning. And I was too ashamed, sure, then, to tell her that I didn't have money to buy shoes. My family was so poor, we just came from the countryside and she just kept scolding me. So I agreed to go back to my home and then pretend that I were shoes, but instead I took another route where I avoided this woman. That's how we did. It's like I rarely ate meat because it didn't have money. But I did dwell in school, even though my family never asked me how I did. They didn't even understand the concept of passing from one class to the next. Were you the only sibling who went to school?

You think only sibling who went to school? Yeah, yes, me and the older one. So, and what kind of education did your parents have? Aside from bedroom education, none. So bedroom education, where you learn how to read, to write, or like homeschooling, which is automatic. When I went to school, I knew how to read and write because that's because we were like a book tribe, you know, a tribe that, you know, because you have in Mauritania, like the tribe that carried weapons and the tribe that carried the books. So we carried the books.

And what's the distinction between those two, what's the distinction between those tribes? I mean, obviously books and weapons, but I've never heard that distinction drawn before. So what does that mean exactly? So it means it's like kind of a caste system that disappeared, but I saw it in my lifetime. So some tribes carry weapons and like build this emerald, like they collect taxes and they provide security

and they like protect the borders. And some tribes, they don't carry weapons, they like protect the borders. And some tribes, they don't carry weapons, they just carry the books. And then they take this religious leadership where they like organized religious ceremony, like marriage, like divorce, like jurisprudence, like kind of an official judiciary.

I see. And so there's no separation between those functions in some sense and having the books. And what books, what are the characteristic books? Yes. So what we learn is mostly like the grammar, Arabic grammar and Greek philosophy and religion, Quran and the tradition, what we call Hadith. And that's it. That's the extent of it. No languages, etc. etc.

And what's the Greek philosophy? And you said that was taught at home. Yes, all of it. And so what did you learn about Greek philosophy? It seems like a rather strange intermingling. So how does that come about the mixture of Greek philosophy and education according to the Quran, let's say? Well, Jordan. So I didn't, I didn't advance in this homeschooling to get to Greek philosophy because you have to be old enough. So the Islamic jurisprudence is based on what they call Osul.

And Osul is derived from Greek philosophy. So the whole jurisprudence is derived from the logic of the Greeks. And we have only this discussion that in order to modernize our jurisprudence is derived from the logic of the Greeks. And we have always this discussion that in order to modernize our jurisprudence, Islamic jurisprudence, we have to learn livenits and we have to learn about Einstein, we have to learn decar because the Greek philosophy on which this whole Islamic jurisprudence is built

is outdated, obviously. And so. So, okay, so back to your schooling. So you came into the city, you couldn't find a job specifically. So you were sent off to school. What, and what kind of school was that? What did you learn there? And was it like a standard classroom

that sort of, I mean, a standard Western classroom? How was it organized? And what did you learn? that the sort of, I mean, the standard Western classroom, how was it organized and what did you learn? So it was a French school system that we, the government inherited from the French colonial time. And it was just different than the school system.

I'm used to at home because at home, I can learn at my own pace and there are no tests, you know, you just learn what you want and then for as long as you want, which was much more advanced and much more better for me. But the school system, it was so much the French school system, so much pressure, so I had very strict curriculum. And I have to go with it, even though if it's quicker, I have to keep pace. And if it's too slow, I have to wait.

So I cannot learn with my own pace. And I did well, actually. So I was always number one until I graduated. Never was I number two. And I used like what I learned at home. And it was a big advantage for me. And so as soon as I finish high school, I receive a scholarship from Germany, you know,

and this is like, while I'm at home. Right. Yeah, I'm at home. Did you even know what it meant at that point to receive a scholarship from Germany. No, it was all by accident, pure accident because I really wanted to go to France because I, I loved like France because they, there is so much advertisement. And I watch like French TV.

I, uh, what I like French music, like what's her name? I forgot her name, you know. I forgot her name, you know. It's beautiful. Yes, it is beautiful. Monna Milla Rose. It's very long term. He does. Yes. Yes. He does. He does. Yes.

I love it. It's a great movie made of EDF P.F.s life. It's a great movie. Yes. Yes. So I want France. This is all advertisement, you know. And the magazines.

So I want to go France. But I did. Did you enjoy the French school? Did you enjoy the French school system? Or was it hard on you? You did well. So what was it like as an experience? I enjoyed a lot, but you know, I enjoyed, I went to two schools at the same time. So I went to the traditional Quran school and the French school. I went to the Quran school because I loved the friendship in the mosque, you know, like what you would call in Canada, Sunday school. I don't know

whether you have it, but I know you can always talk about it. So I love this Sunday school because I have so much freedom, so I can do whatever I want, and there is no pressure whatsoever. And ironically, the thing I learned in the Sunday school, I mean, in the mosque, I retained them to this day because I chose to learn them. And in the French school, yes, there was like some kind of pressure, especially during the test. I don't like tests. I think tests are the worst thing that the Western civilization has come up with.

I don't think tests are horrible. Why should I test anyone? If you don't want to learn something, just don't learn it. And if I was responsible for the system in my country, I would do away my first day with test. Notice, you just learn as you want and if you are a doctor, you just go to the hospital and work in the hospital. Your senior doctors would know whether you are qualified or not. If you are you are qualified or not. If you are a computer engineer, you just go find someone to show them what you learn and then they will give you a job and they will see whether you can do the job or it's because test is not indicative of anything. Well, you had intrinsic motivation obviously and

you love to learn. So it was probably superfluous for you to have the pressure added. So you got a scholarship to Germany, what happened as a consequence? So it was 1988, I was only 70. And it was the first time any member of my family ever traveled abroad, aside from Senegal. Senegal is just, it's very close. It was the first time any member of my family ever boarded a plane.

It was, you know, it was amazing. And I remember when the plane took off, I was frantically reading Quran because I memorized the Quran to this day. I know every single page. And this student already went to France and said, are you scared? I didn't know what was my answer, but actually, I was scared.

But I'm sure I told him I wasn't scared. Well, it's not surprising. I mean, first of all, you were on a plane for the first time and you're not familiar with them. And then you're going to a completely foreign country and no one in your family has ever done that. And tell me about the tribe. You said you were from, again, from the tribe that was focused on books. What's the tribal organization? It's beyond the family, obviously. What does it look like? So a tribe is kind of a small country. Like the tribe is a family name.

So you have your tribe, that's your family. So if you are sick, they will provide you. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة.

لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. لقد تفعلت تلك المدينة. Let's say if you kill someone, you know, by mistake. So your tribe will pay for the other, the family who lost that person, you know, as like a kind of insurance. And I always say in Mauritania, we should adopt this tribal system, but the country should be one single tribe, just like in Canada. Canada is a big tribe because the Canadian state, is the one that provides you with health insurance, they have set up insurance, damage insurance,

to pay, and if you kill someone by mistake, your insurance pays, i.e. your tribe. And I think that's the best way I could describe what the tribe, I think it's how how many people would would compose the tribe that you belonged to? How large was it about? to how large was it about? I really, I don't have any scientific number, but I would say when I was growing up, I would like randomly say 100,000. And how many tribes are there in Mauritania, do you know? A lot, a lot of tribe in all shape and form.

Not only the warrior tribe, you have the warrior tribe, you have the book tribe, IE Zawaya, and you have the almost serving tribes, like the tribe who provide services, like artists, this is like almost independent tribe. And all they do is just like entertainment and you have unfortunately I have to admit we had slaves, they just like surf, you know you own them at the survey, in I think 81 this was abolished, you know, but we need to face up to this But we need to face up to this horrific past. And just...

Well, we all have a lot of horrific past to face up to. Yes. So, unfortunately. Yes, unfortunately. Well, hopefully we can do better. That's the plan, right? So, all right. So, you got on the plane and you read the crown on the plane

and you made it to Germany. It's no wonder you were afraid. I mean, what did you think was waiting for you there? So I had no clue, you know, I like surprises because when I was sitting like with one of the people in the studio and then someone asked me, so what are you going to talk to Jordan about? I said, I have no clue. And then he said, and I said, I don't care. Whatever. And I like surprises. And I'm very curious, just like you.

And so we arrived in Paris because I had to change the, there was no direct flight to Frankfurt. So I changed the, the first thing I saw in Paris and I'm ashamed to say this, everything was clean and everybody was wearing very tight clothes and everything was in place and the women were wearing very nice clothes and everything was in place. And the women were wearing very nice clothes,

everything was in. And of course, that was the impression. Later on, I noticed that the clothes are really not very comfortable, you know, for some reason, because the boo-boo and the African glues closed were worn for a reason. And so I took my plane. I had I had I had 80. I had in my pocket about $12, $12 or $13. about $12 or $13, that the money that my family gave to me as a pocket money, $12 or $13 and $18, France, $80, France. And so I took my plane and we arrived like 11 p.m.

in Frankfurt. I did not speak English. I did not speak German. So I came there and then they stepped my passport. And then for some reason, with just everything, they showed me the hotel where I spend the night. And then it was Sheraton. For the first time, Jordan, I sat in a room and alone.

And that was very scary because my family was big. My family was very loud. And every time, at every moment, someone is watching you. Right. So you were alone for the first time in a foreign country where you didn't speak the language? And every time, at every moment, someone is watching you. Right, so you were alone for the first time in a foreign country where you didn't speak the language. Yes, and alone, physically, with no one. Yes, right, right, I understand.

And that was very scary to me. And because in a very weird way, my privacy was defined by the people around me because they were my cocoon. You know, because I trusted them, I'm not afraid of them. I could do everything in front of them. But now I'm alone. It was like the people I'm used to were filled with ghosts. But I'm afraid of ghosts. And then I took a shower and I did like just everyone. I

love the towels. I love the small teeny tiny soap. I stole everything. I put it in my back. That was my first theft. And so I fell asleep watching German TV, I didn't answer many things. And then a friend of mine who came with me, whose family is a little bit richer and they used to go to Paris, not him, he came knocked at my door, said, Muhammad, we can eat for free. This is a hotel. I said, really? I said, yes.

He took me to the elevator. Last night, I took elevator, but I was so tired, I didn't pay attention to this, like, miracle. You know, something that's small room that you get into and then it stops. It's very disorientating because I didn't know how many stairs I made up and down. And then I went to this buffet very huge with a lot of people, white people, European

people, by a lot. And I'm a small beduin. And there was everything, eggs, all types of bread, marmalade, all kinds of teas, but this was the proverbial German, Dicval, der Val, the torture of too many choices. their van, the torture of too many choices. I only use to, in Mauritania, tea and bread. And when we were like, do really good, they give me a bar in my bread and marmalade, really good stuff. So this all wasn't.

And I was telling myself, I need to eat something because I would look foolish and I would look straight if I don't eat something. Then I chose eggs because I know how to eat eggs. Or at least I thought. And then I said there, I felt like everyone was looking at me. Everyone put everything down and I was the scene and then I broke the eggs, it was not cooked very well and I hate half cooked eggs. We say in Mauritania, I found myself with a thorny twigs between my legs.

with a thorny twigs between my legs. So I couldn't move forward, and neither could I move backward. And so I thought, I need to get out of this place. And then I hit the eggs somewhere, and I drink that it was horrible, it was lifted. I hate lifting, you know. You know, I love my tea being very well cooked and very well brewed, you know, because this is tasteless to me, like, you know, a bag, you put it in hot water, there is no taste to

it. So all that food you got half cooked eggs and bad teeth. Talking about bad life. And then we took the plane to the city of Zarbrücken at the border of the Senegal, very close to Metz, a non-Austrasbourg. And so we took a small plane and because a small plane was really very wobbly, I thought God wanted to punish me. Now this experience is going to crash because I stole the soap from the hotel. And then I was really, so I was like praying frantically and I promised myself, I took upon myself, never to steal anything anymore. You know, if I survived this very bumpy ride and we arrived at Zarbrykin, I started the language,

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Germany 12 years. I studied and I worked. And you picked up German and English there or just German when you were there. Yes German. I picked English mostly in prison. So, okay, what happened in Germany? What happened in Germany? You got your degree. And was it a technical? What what your degree, and was it a technical, what education institute was that you attended? So I attended,

I will say the name is very long, very boring, Gerhard Merkator University of Duisburg. Now it's called University of Duisburg, Essen. And I studied microelectronics telecommunication. That is a very fancy way to say that you can program and you can like set up a computer networks. And how did you choose that? How did you choose your course of study?

Peer pressure. I wanted to be a pilot. But I had problems during my first year. And my friends told me that this is useless because in Mauritania, back then we had a fleet of two airplanes, in whole Mauritania, two airplanes. And this is only like rich kids, they could go and make this pilot license. And I wouldn't have a job.

They said the future is like microelectronics and so and I just wanted to study that because my friends told me that in general. And how did you make friends there and how long did it take you? And what was your family? How are you communicating with your family? Yeah, we didn't have what's up.

I can't tell you that much. And like we only had this phone, but we didn't have a phone at home. So I had to call my brother at work and tell him that I'm doing well. And then he relayed the message to the family because he didn't have a phone at home. That was in the early 90s. And were you lonesome? Were you excited?

Like how is your life when you got to Germany? You know, I was, you know, most of the time I was very depressed because a lot of depression because of, you know, my, you know, Germany is a lot of very, they have very, very distinct look to them. And I looked different. And that did not help me a lot. Generally, people are very nice people, but whenever I went to places and so, especially when I traveled back and forth,

they always put me on special screening. And I hated myself and I was very young and I always looked in the mirror, and said, I'm really a very bad person because why did they pick me from all those people? And so what did you make of that? What was your explanation for that? I mean, you said you thought you were a bad person. But did you experience, you said that the Germans were nice people, but you talked about this screening.

So did you experience other forms of treatment that made you feel that way? Or was it primarily the the airport screening? Not only also when you look for a job, you know, during the like vacation, they always prefer like native German, which I mean I kind of understand, but this all like I'm not giving any value judgment to any of these Jordan. I'm just telling you how I felt I felt I have I had very low self esteem. And then I started to completely neglect myself neglect like what I wear, which made the things. Well, it loans, was it because you were alone? I mean, you know, you said you hadn't been alone and now all of a sudden you were basically on your own

in this strange country. I mean, how much of being detached from your family and your tribe for that matter? Do you think contributed to your depression and the darkness perhaps and the cold, all of these things? Yes, a lot. وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك وانتعبك person. You are a very important person. And that's I have always to be reminded of who I am. And in Germany, I tend to forget who I am and I tend to forget those people value me, my mother, values me no matter what. And it's like all, all, every time it's wake up call, okay, I'm a very important person to my family,

you know, to my surrounding. And I always remember this eerie music at airport, Martha Otto Hirish, Emil, Martha Emil, Dora Otto Ulrich, Ulrich, Otto Ulrich Ludwisch, Dora Ziegfried Ludwisch, Anton Hirrich, Ulrich, the Otto Ulrich, Ludwisch, Dora, Ziegfried, Ludwisch, Anton, Hiris, Idda. This is the German code to spell my name over the phone. So to see whether I'm a wanted person.

And this is very hurtful too. And my life would not get any better. And I tell you why, because we need to mention the elephant in the room here. Why did the United States arrest me, could not be? Why were they interested in me? Yes, well, we definitely want to get to that. Yes. So if you want to I can go ahead and tell you. Well, so we've got you're in Germany. You've been there a number of years. So that's sure.

Let's progress with the story. And that story was I would say three minutes. Phone call that completely changed my life. I would never be talking to you if it hadn't been for that phone call. So, I wasn't doing very well. So, I'm not saying, oh, I was doing very well and then this phone call.

So, I was like, I was like struggling in my marriage. And I was looking for jobs because, you know, like I told you I wasn't German and so and it was very hard. And my papers were not, I didn't have like the green card that I was still waiting to get my green card. And I just got it actually when I had this phone call. I just my life started to get really good. And the phone rang. I was living in Friedrich Eberstrasse.

I remember. And I figured out it was my brother, my ex-brother-in-law. And he asked me, he said, my father is very sick and I need your help. I said, of course. He said, I have some money, but I cannot transfer it. But I can send it to Germany because and then you can send it to my father.

I said, no problem. I think it was about $5,000. If I remember correctly, a lot of money. And that's it. That was the phone call. He sent me the money. And I took it physically and I gave it to some of the people who come back and forth to commerce in Germany.

And I know. And but there was a problem with this phone call. This phone call was conducted from a mobile satellite phone that belonged to the late Usame Bill Laden. And my brother-in-law was a close friend to Usame, the lad. So the American put one and one together and they assumed that I was up to no good because Usame, the lad, the back, then already declared war against the United States, against innocent people of the United States. I was not aware of any of these.

No, I was aware of the problem. And one thing investigated when I was taken into custody, but no, no, I'm forwarding really too fast. So they... So the money was sent to you but no, no, I'm forwarding really too fast. So they... So the money was sent to you and you distributed to some people to get it to your friend's father. That's what happened.

Correct, that's it. So the money trade was very clear, where the money landed. Because I was not the only person he contacted that day. He did two phone calls I know of. He contacted me and he contacted that day. He did two phone calls I know of. He contacted me and he contacted the person who would receive the money in in Mauritania. Do you think he had any sense that he was

putting you in danger? To be perfectly uns... It's very hard to to read was in his mind, but he put me, he completely changed my life in a very negative way. Right. Well, you did say that his father was ill. And so obviously he was at least in principle motivated to help his father. So perhaps that was obscuring his vision. I mean, did he know that that did he, do you think he knew that there was a possibility that using telecommunication equipment that was associated with bin Laden might not be such a good thing for you? I mean, maybe

he didn't. I'm just curious what you think. He took very, he did not consult me. So he made this decision for me, that's for sure. And I don't think that he thought that the phone was even tapped. But he did know that some people were sitting with with the Sample Laden day in day out were working with the CIA. Very close. Very close friends of Sample Laden were transmitting information to the CIA, you know. And he was very blinded, I guess.

And I have to mention, he was investigated and he is now free man. And they did not find any connection with him and any like wrongdoing. I see, I see. He was just associate of Samadhan. They were like friends, but he did not engage with him in any of, in any,

in any attacks or anything. So I just need to mention that. Okay. Now you also mentioned that you were married, so you got married in Germany? Yes. My wife, my ex-wife is a Palestinian German. And you know, at that, and I wasn't like doing well in my marriage, so I have to say that. And you know, I don't know whether you ever found yourself in a relationship where you don't want to get out of it because you don't want to bear the shame of being the person who is responsible for breaking up the relationship, but you didn't want the relationship somehow.

I was in that very bad situation. Right. So you had a couple of things that weren't going so well. So you were depressed about your situation in Germany and your marriage wasn't going well. And then this phone call came and you transmitted the money. What happened after that? The fact, everything went downhill. So this was like late, 98, early, 99. So the police, I was not arrested, I was never interrogated, I was never held, I was never invited by the police,

never. So German found no ground to arrest me or to even question me, but they went to our Imam that is like the priest, the equivalent of a priest in church. And they found, so they made an appointment with the Imam and they told him this one of the people who come to your mosque is being investigated. And then he was laughing and when they showed him the picture, he told me later and he said, this guy wouldn't hurt a flat. I know him very well. They said, that's maybe we may even agree with you, but a very powerful country is interested in him. And this was like almost a tip of that I should be careful,

not to travel. But I freaked out. And then I had a friend. You heard this from the E-Mam? Did he tell you this had happened? And so what did you think when he told you that? Actually, I wasn't surprised because my family already called me. Because when I was called,

this, he also called my other cousin who would receive the money. My cousin was arrested immediately and put in prison for two months. So my family knew that he was being wanted, he was wanted. And they told me never to receive any phone calls from him and not to accept his phone call and not to accept to interact with him. So I wasn't surprised actually. Right. You knew something was up and not something good. Yes.

Yes. And who got arrested? Who got arrested? Was it the person you delivered the money to or the person who sent the money? No. The person whom I delivered the money to. I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, person whom I delivered the money to. Other person was never arrested. And was the person who received the money arrested in Germany?

No, no, no, no, Germany is a candidate by law. They don't arrest you. He was arrested in Mauritania because at least back then it was, it didn't respect the proper legal procedure. It didn't respect the proper legal procedure. And because the US government sent two notice, one to Mauritania and one to Germany. Germany says we cannot arrest him without evidence. Mauritania said we arrest him.

That's the difference. So you received the money in Germany, did you give the money to this person in Germany? And then he went back to Morteini. I sent I sent it to him So I sent him to what they call loosely how well it so you give to a Person in Germany the person person call his family or his associates to give the money in Mauritania because I see. see yeah I changed you know they changed money currency okay so use the service that did that

move money yes absolutely okay so I freaked out and I said I need to to live Germany I cannot live in a place where people think I'm a bad person. And then, you know, I did... So my friends lived in Montreal, Mohsen, his name is Mohsen, he's five years my senior, he finished his study at the same university, we became very good friends, and he moved to Canada, and he was working and living in Canada. He was Canadian, he became Canadian citizen when I arrived. And he told me Canada is a very good country. You have what to study is very wanted and you can apply. And I applied, I had this as a plan B and I was accepted right away, you know, because they need a lot of IT people and so on and so forth. And then I said, I'm moving to Canada, joining my friends. And in November of 99, I first one way ticket, and I moved to Canada.

I perched one way ticket and I moved together. As luck had it in December 15th of December, a person by the name of Ahmed Raslan tried to cross the Canadian newspaper with explosive and harm innocent people. So, Americans said, okay, what's going on? So, this guy had a phone call from with some of the ladders, phone, and he came to Canada one month later,

a guy who attended this mask. And one way ticket. Yeah, one way ticket. And they made this very wild theory based on circumstances that was very wild and very harming to me. And they called me the mass mind of a millennium plot. And of course, they told Canadian. Canadian were very worried, obviously.

But Canadian could not arrest me because there was no evidence obviously because I don't know the guy. I never heard of him. I never met him. And let alone like conspiring with him to harm innocent people in the US. And so did they assume that you were associated with this with this person who had been bringing explosives in that I was a mastermind. I was plan that and this was the your next step was it correct. Yes, correct. And so Canadian but Canadian did not arrest me but they were very aggressive. They put like listening device in the apartment where I lived and they spied on my conversation. I would know that later on in Guantanamo Bay because I was

faced with my phone calls in Montreal. Confronted, I mean. And so American, like said, this guy is very smart. He does not leave any trail. This guy, he speaks like German, Arabic, French, and he is an engineer, and he's not going to leave a trail. So we need to lure him to a place where there is no law, because we cannot arrest him in Canada. We cannot arrest him in the US. We cannot arrest him in Canada. We cannot arrest him in the US. We cannot arrest him in Canada because in Germany, because because we don't have the evidence.

He needs to provide the evidence himself. So they assumed you were an engineer that you were multilingual, that you had purchased a one way ticket to Canada, that you were associated with bin laden that you were tangled up with this previous terrorist that was all part of that and that you were and that you were smart enough to cover your trucks. Yes and I needed to be arrested and to be roughed up quote unquote in order to tell them everything and people were freaking out and you know I'm very people were freaking out and you know I am very sympathetic to law enforcement, especially democracies who try to protect people and I could see the logic behind everything. What I couldn't see is like treating someone outside the rule of law because Canada is advanced, Canada is safe because of the rule of law.

In the Middle East countries are either failing or failed countries because the lack of the rule of law, because ironically those gloves, the gloves of the law are the one that keeps countries safe and prosperous. So Canadian intelligence, American intelligence and the retaining intelligence agreed to an operation that would have me to look outside of Canada and kidnap. So the retaining intelligence approached my mother

and they said, Muhammadu is in a lot of travel Canada and you need to call him back home and so we could like we could like clear his name and he could go back to Canada and work just like anyone. And who made that claim? Sorry who was who contacted your mother? The Mauritania intelligence. They want more entertaining intelligence, okay? Correct. Or the lack thereof. So, and so my mother, you know, she was a badwin, and she, her understanding that the state, you know, we should abide the state, you know,

especially in a military, like I grew up in a military dictatorship and we were very scared, very afraid. And whatever happens, she did not understand Canada is a country ruled by law and I shouldn't be afraid to be in Canada. So she said whatever happens to me is better to happen with it in a than to happen in Canada because all countries are the same. And so she called me said, I'm sick, you need to get home. I first might take it the next day and I left Canada on January 20th of 2000.

I arrived in Dakar, Senegal, where my family waited on me on January 21st, January 21st, 2000. family waited on me on January 21st, 2000. From the airport, I always kidnapped and interrogated in Senegal. And who picked you up? Who kidnapped you? And why do you use that phrase specifically? I don't know. I guess. Okay, okay, okay. I guess why did I use it? So, I think it would end up in a kidnapping because of what, of course, of what I'm going to tell you.

So Senegalist told me we are a ratio. We are a ratio in the name of law, on whose array it, on the law, law. We are a rescue in the name of the law. That was very okay with me, very good. They took me to prison and they interrogated me

and then they said, there is no evidence against you, they told me. So you're free to go. And the American said, he cannot go. They put me in a plane against my will. The Americans, they chose this. So you got freed from the Senegalese prison.

Yes. Were you reunited with your family? What happened? What was exactly the sequence of events? So America, so Senegal is told me, how am I doing free to go? We have nothing against you. sequence of events. So America, so Senegal is told me, how made you free to go? We have nothing against you. So Americans in the embassy, they ask them not to release me because they

want me. So they sent a car, you know, SUV from the embassy and the embassy took my custody. And what did they tell you when they picked you up? No, not talking. Nothing. I was just put in chains and they took me, they chartered the plane, they sent me to Mauritania. So what did you think was going on? I, I, I was thinking they want to torture me because they want me to, yes, yes, because

they didn't want me to go back to Canada because they went so far, I went so far, I couldn't go back because Canada was like a protection for me, a protection for quote unquote bad guy. This is a bad guy and they need to crack. He needs to tell us what the thing. Did you know it was Americans that had picked you up when you got into the SUV? Yes, yes, yes. I know because Senegal is told me Americans are the one who sent the report. The are the one who asked them to arrest me. You know, we need to understand that Senegal is a democracy and is ruled by law. And but it's not strong enough to oppose the the encroachment of American embassy. So they were they are not as strong as Canadian institution because in Canada, the US embassy kinetic people, because that would be in the breach

of grave breach of Canadian laws. So many people would get in trouble. But anyway, so they put me that plane very small and it was so small that I could see the pilot, the pilot was a female, a French female pilot, and she was just like a taxi driver with a small plane, and she just chartered her small plane to move people from one place to the other. And I prayed, and I almost was fantasizing that the plane crashed and that I survived the crash because I don't like pain.

And I read so much about torture and I don't like torture. So I was delivered to the Mauritania. Did you have any sense at that point of why you were in trouble? I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know, but I kind of, I kind of know because Canadian came to my home and they told me, they interrogated me about Ahmed Rasna.

But they didn't, I see, I see. Right, right. And you knew also that there had been some trouble around the money transfer. And did you know at that point of this association with Obama bin Laden? No, no, nothing. Nothing yet. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, mentioning, given of the name of my former brother-in-law. And so, I, so, I just was, I cannot describe to you the pain of the prospect of being tortured.

I cannot describe. What were you imagining? What did you think was going to happen? I was very serene and I was thinking like existential like question because like one of my bodyguard seems to be a very religious person because he kept like praying in the playing. And I was asking myself, what is the role of religion? To how much can a religious person do? You know, and where does a religious person say, I'm not doing this, I'm stopping.

And this was like too much like to think about because a guard cannot has to trust somehow the state because he doesn't know who I am. You know, as far as a concern like his boss told him, this is a vicious person. He was planning to kill random people, children, women, old people, young people randomly at an airport in the US. And I was seeing my city, the city of New York shot. And I could see the palette after a storm, a sandstorm, you know, the colors and people very tiny, walking and the favelas,

you know, where I grew up, I could see everything. And the helplessness, you know, of me not being able to be happy, because in like five minutes I would walk out of the plane, greeting my family, drinking tea, telling them stories. I knew I was going to a prison cell. I was almost certain I would be tortured. And I was thinking, what does it feel like to be tortured? I don't know. But I read books and I was thinking about the brave people who survived torture. And I knew Jordan, I was not a brave person because I want to crack at the very first moment. You know, I did not want to resist because the pain, you know, I love these things, Jordan. The most powerful weapon of your oppressor is in your mind.

You're right. Yes. Well, that's why I was asking you what you were imagining, you know, because... I was the fear. That would be terrible. I was absolutely defeated. And the pain I felt in my stomach, in my abdomen. And I felt like in my mouth, very like, very bitter taste in my mouth. And the helplessness, you know, I mean, sure, that you have to appreciate where you live. You have to appreciate that you grew up in a democracy

and you take it for granted that no one can take you without giving you a reason why they take it to the police. And you have a big mouth, you can say, no, I need a lawyer. I don't need to talk to you. And you can like start and develop your narrative with your lawyer, everything to save yourself. None of that. So in a country that is natural by law, you have none of these rights.

So they took me in Renold 12 from airport, very old. And you know, Mauritania, we are like bedwins and they want to put a mask over my face though, I couldn't see, they didn't have a mask prepared. And then one of them gave me his turbine that he used on his head. He said, you need to rub his turbine around your head. Very tightly. And I could smell his sweat,

you know. And so they took me to a secret prison. And they start interrogating. And so, So, and like my past start to come out. So in my past, in 91, between 1992, I spent a couple of months on two different occasions in Afghanistan. They came to our mass and they wanted like to gather like money And so it was a very big thing in Germany. And this was a campaign that was supported by Germany, supported by the US, by my government, by Canada, by the US to help the Mujahideer, the so-called Mujahideer. And I was very young.

I said, oh, I need to be part of this. And I went there and I didn't like it and then I left but this was nonetheless something I told them I'm sorry I went there and so and so after one month of interrogation, Mauritania, they did not torture me, they did not torture me. So and They did not torture me. They did not torture me. So and they, and did anything else come to light during that interrogation that cast you in a bad, in a bad light that that was hard on your reputation? No, nothing, nothing because it turns out, Mauritania knew that I want to have guns done because they it's in my passport because I want want that is a stamp in my passport. So they knew that. And what only came to light was that that I don't know. They told me like American wouldn't provide them any evidence and they were stuck because because Mauritania told Americans to take me, but Americans refused. And Mauritania like were actually breaking the law

by offering me because you cannot, you cannot turn off a Mauritania citizen once they hit the Mauritania ground. So you have to try them if they did any crimes, no matter what. So why do you think you were tortured, was it a standard practice there or not, and if so, why did you escape torture? You see, like intelligence like in authoritarian regime, they don't just jump on you on torture. They have to have good reason. So we have to be very objective when we describe things.

So they told me, if I don't cooperate with them, they will torture. If there is evidence, they have to know I'm hiding something, but Americans wouldn't provide them any evidence that I'm hiding anything that I didn't tell them. And I adamantly told them that I had no clue about million in the past. I don't know Ahmad Rassam. I never met him. And American wouldn't give them any evidence to the contrary. So they were somewhat inclined to believe you. They did believe me.

They did believe me and they told American either you give us the evidence or we're going to release him. And then American asked them a favor. They said, okay, take away his passport and don't let him go back to Canada. We'll retain an intelligence as usual. Ever break in the law, they took my passport, they did not allow. And Canadians also ask them not to allow me to travel back to Canada because Canadian found them

in a very hot spot. Because Canada is very close to the US. And they just don't want any trouble with the big brother and which is understandable. And I said to myself, okay, they took my passport. I went there, I went I applied for a job and I found a very good job as a programmer and administrator. And I start like writing code. And until 9-11 happened, I was arrested, kidnap. And that's it.

And torture. All right, so you're in Mauritania, they let you out. You've been imprisoned there, but you have a story and the Mauritans accept the story. What happens after that? So they told me I cannot travel because they actually did not want to travel. And I said, okay, I just find a job in Mauritania.

You know, my dream, my dreams of studying for my PhD in Canada were dashed. I said, it's okay, I need to work anyway and then I found a shopping malletania and I start feeding my family for like over a year until 9-11 happens and everything changed. So you're in Mauritania, 9-11 happens, but you're working and you're taking care of your family in Mauritania.

And so 9-11 happens. What happens to you? What's the consequence of that? On 29th of September, that is about a little bit over two weeks after 9-11. I received a phone call again from the police, with a police. And then they said, we need to talk to you. I said, okay, the guy said, where are you? I said, where are you?

I'm coming to you. And they said, okay, I'm at this and that place. And then I drove my car and met him. And he was very frank. He told me, American told us to arrest him. I said, why don't you tell them that I didn't do anything? He said, they're very angry because of 9-11 and just bear with me. They just will ask for some questions they will let you go. And then they came and they brought German translator and then they interrogated me. I don't know who interrogated me. So a guy maybe CIA maybe FBI maybe I don't know. maybe FBI, maybe I don't know. Where did that take place?

In the Mauritane prison. And okay. And they left. And then again, Mauritane released me. And then after one month, they took me again. And then they told me that American wants me in Jordan. And I lost it. I lost it. I said, this is too much. Because I guess American figured out this is his home. This is his tribe. And this is a corrupt regime. Maybe they're protecting him. We need to take him outside of his comfort zone where he has no tribes and we torture him.

And then he will like tell us everything. And that's exactly what happened. So they took me, so they took me to the airport. Now was that more Italians or Americans that took you to the airport? We're Italian. Okay. So you're taking to the airport? We can't. Okay. Are you taking to the airport? Yes.

And they put me in a plane with five people, two sex people, two pilots, because they two pilots and two interrogators and two people with masks, I couldn't, they didn't talk, they just with masks, like kind of commandos special team. And so when they... So what were you thinking on this plane? What should I, he says so much pain. I just died a thousand times.

You know, I know I was going to torture. I know 100%. I was going to go. And the ride was about 12 hours. And one of the station, one of the airport was in Cyprus. Cyprus is part of the European Union and they signatory of confession against horses, just like Mauritania. And I was hoping that they would board the plane and inspect the people, passports and everything because for an African guy to get a visa to Europe, it's almost like next to impossible.

But now I'm going through Europe without even a passport. And I want to be arrested as a criminal and put in prison, you know? And this never happened because everybody was on and it. And I say, Jordan, this is one of the biggest, of the biggest betrayal of US citizens. United States stood with Europe against the national socialism. And Europe, after 9-11, enabled the United States to gravely violate human rights instead of standing up to the government and said, no, American people deserve better. And America is better than doing this.

America is ruled by the law. America should lead the world in human rights. It should not violate human rights, because this would open a can of works and would give like a cart blush to all those horrific regimes to do whatever they wanted. And I landed in Jordan. And then I was put in this secret prison.

And most of the time, I didn't know day from night, you know, I was beaten only two times during eight months. And the, but the thing that hurt me so much when they took me to listen to torture sessions, you know, they blind folded me, they put me in a room, they start torturing this person. You know, for me to break. And I could do you think that the what was that tape? Do you think or was it something that was happening right there? Do you think Jordan, I didn't know. I mean, yes, or very smart person.

Smart question, but I mean, it doesn't matter really from your perspective when you're there, because, but I'm, you know, I'm curious, I suppose, about the methods. Yes, yes, I mean, it's horrific. The problem, the problem with that, I couldn't get the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the's in the brain and the brain does not need your eyes or your ears to see or hear, you know, because the brain. How often were you exposed to that sort of thing? I remember like, Maybe a dozen, but I was only moving twice. So I have a question for you. If you had to be beaten or you had to listen to people being tortured, I know this is a

terrible question, but it speaks to the intensity of listening to people being tortured. Which of those was more torturous? Listening absolutely no question ask. Why? Yes, because when they start beating me, okay, a lot of anxiety and a lot of inside pain goes away because my body is weakened. And the problem is to have a strong body and destroy it's own, because somehow the soul and body has to be balanced out. So if you threaten me, and then you put me in a situation, especially with the power of me, put me in a situation that is so painful.

And I'm eating myself from inside. But when you beat me and then you cause me pain, and that pain, this is horrible to say, but it's good for me. to because it weakens the sharpness of my mind to process the perceived pain that I may be receiving. It's like when you have depression and when you walk or when you walk out, work or just torsion yourself and then it goes dissipate somehow. So how long were you in prison in Jordan? Very good question. So I tried to keep, like, to keep a calendar in my head. So I say one, two, three.

I wasn't bad. So when they told me you are going out, they gave me a paper to sign. I was expecting July 31st, 2002. I saw the paper July 20 or 21st, I don't remember. I was completely off, you know, because nights and days somehow, somehow mix with each other, I don't know why. Well, you said you weren't sleeping well and that's not surprising, so that could easily, I mean, in Iraq, and I presume how much time did you spend outside? Maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes outside. It per day or in total? No, in total.

So never really? Yes. And what did you say? One time outside, and I was so scared, because you know, you are so vulnerable when you are exposed to torture, because you feel like I want my torture, I want to be close to my torture, I want my torture to be, to be satisfied, you know. I want to put me this cell because that's what satisfies them. I don't want to be in a big space. And it's very weird to explain. Because I saw this torture has a godlike power. They give you food. They talk to you.

They said, if you are a good guy, I'm going to treat you well. If you are a bad guy, I'm going to punish you. This is immediate power. And yes, so I want to tell you this epiphany a little bit because it's very important to understand like this kind of forgiveness. That's I really have in my heart. So they came to me. I was very weak after eight months of battery eight months of

Mind destruction mind and body. I was very weak. I was about Less than 100 pound and I'm 171 or 172 centimeter and less than 100 pounds is really very skinny. So they gave me this guy throw a bag, garbage bag in my cell, said, you go in home. Then I took the bag, I had very small belonging like this big, like underwear, and I think I had a t-shirt, that's it. And then he told me to turn around, ironically that is a sign of respect to give your back

side to the guard, because he wants to control you and put your hands behind your back side to the guard because he wants to control you and put your hands behind your back and shackle him. And then he led me, always blindfolded. I was never let to see anything except when they pushed me inside the cell and then they removed the... the room of the, and then I sat in a chair like this, facing a guy, middle-aged guy. He looks, he spoke almost like a religious figure and it was like everybody around him was like out of focus because like a movie, you know people who cannot see them very well. because like a movie, you know, people who cannot see them very well.

My eyes were glued on him. And he was telling me, okay, this is your belonging. Okay. And I was supposed to say that he was right. I got everything back. I think I had $80, something like that or $100. I don't know. And then had my Canadian driver license, German driver license, passport. And they said this everything. Of course I said this. What did they expect you to say? And so this summary judgment of that would show that the prison staff was good, was done very quickly. And what I want at that moment, I want to pee.

But I couldn't tell him I want to pee because I want to go home. And then they put me in this herds, like blindfold, earmuffs, everything. Then they drove me to the airport. I could hear the roar of the engines because I was on the airport. I could hear the roar of the engines, because I was on the runway. And all of a sudden, someone started to, like, cut open my clothes with very sharp scissors. And then they stripped me completely naked, and they put a diaper on, a diaper on. I figure I'm not going to know and I'm not going

to another prison in Jordan, I'm going to the US. And this was like confirmed when this guy briefly when this guy briefly remove the blindfold and open my eyes. And I could see his blunt hair on his arm. He did not say anything. And he had very black bag on his face mask, on his face. Well, could only see the eyes. And blue eyes, I presume. I don't really this fake memory, but I figured he is not a Jordanian.

And I just imagine that this was the end of my life. Did you think at any time then that you had your hopes been raised that you were maybe going home? No, after this I knew I was not going forward. No, before I meant on the way, before you hit the airport. Did you think that maybe you were going to be free? I was crying all the time. And I was saying, this is the first time in my life, I would enjoy a bathroom in an airplane. I hate bathrooms in airplanes. And this is so good. And I would meet my family. And I would, this is so like imagination. And then I was like, but I was kind of like destroyed mentally because I was thinking, how could I live because I was in prison with good relationship with God? And I was like, pure in my soul.

And then now I'm going back to life and you know, in life, you have to fight with people, you know, and then to do, you have to do the wrongs because like occupational hazard of living your life. And then it hit me after that, I mean, after they start to put me in new clothes and diapers that I would have a very long ride and it's going to the US. And I figured I would die forgotten in a very violent, American prison. What do you think the purpose of the diapers was? The purpose of the diapers,

because very long flights. And you cannot, security, they will not take you to any place. You have to pee in your diaper. I see. I see. Okay. So this is very important, because at least to my mind, because this moment changed my life forever.

My life before this CIA team that took me from Jordan, and after the CIA took me from Jordan, are two different episodes that have very little to do with each other, and I tell you why. So, when I came to the conclusion that I will die, this is it, this is my life, then I started to reflect on my past. And then I start to regret. And there is only one thing I regretted in my life, one single thing I regretted not to be nice enough to people. I regretted when I told my mom, I didn't like this food, this food is not as I expected.

I regretted when I get sometimes, when I got sometimes angry and I express my anger in a very, in a less than nice way. I did not regret not having money. I did not regret not having this. I did not regret not having this beautiful woman I always dreamed about. I did not regret not being in a position of power in my life. All the things that demand so much effort and work had no value to me. And the things that are so easy to do in life are the ones that matter to me.

Being nice. And I took it upon myself. If Allah, God allows me to live again, I promise to be a nice person to everyone, I mean, no matter what. And that's what the changing might be. And why do you, why do you think that transformation occurred then? What, what, what's your understanding of, of why that occurred?

This is like the first time that I really thought that I will never see life again, that I will die in an American prison. That's then I had so to face my past because that's, you know, it's just facing death. And I strange the way that facing death would make you reevaluate your life like that. No, because in some sense, you think it's a bit late, isn't it? I mean, if you think you're going to die, but then that all those thoughts come to mind that you could have been a better person. And yes, it's I know, I know, but it's like your soul is being weighed, you know, in light of your

impending death and you're evaluating your whole life. Yes, absolutely. And I mean, I mean, this is like, you know, in a very weird way, I think I'm lucky because I had the unique, you know, experience, maybe not unique, but very few people at this experience, you had it that they faced death. And they said, what should I change in my life? What should I change in my life? And I knew what I need to change. You know, I know I don't need a lot of money.

Of course, I love to have money. Of course, but I wouldn't like break my back or break my head to make money. Absolutely not. But I make so much effort, painful effort to be a nice person. And it's not easy to be a nice person. And what do you mean by being a nice person?

What does that entail as far as you're concerned? Absolutely. So when I'm upset with you or with my family, I have to control what I say. I have to control what I do because I always want to leave a good taste, no matter what. Also, when someone asks me for help, I have to provide them help without hurting myself. The only way I deny help, if this help, very help is going to hurt me, and that's not a problem to me,

to not accept to help. And that's it, problem to me to not accept to have. And that's it. Just being nice to people, making a difference, smiling, you know, to people, you know, making them feel good. This is very important. You said that when you were in Germany, that you had fits boats of depression that were long lasting. What about now? What about now? It's very, I'm very depressed. Like I have this PTSD scene, like episodes, that will send me to the hospital for many days and I almost died. One of the reason for this very bad episode was taking clonopin, what they call it, at least in the US, clonopin. And this was starting in prison because I was really, I was very much a vegetable when it comes.

Then they prescribed me chloropin and then they cut it called turkey. So one day I have some experience with that. Yes, I was terrible. It's terrible. Oh my God, you cannot explain to someone that you can't. No, you can't.

It was absolutely unbearable. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. When I think about it. How long did that last? I don't know because I didn't have feeling for time. But the pain I keep hitting my head against the wall. And I was crying like a child.

I was crying like a child. And this was definitely a malpractice, you know, in prison, you know, because I read the late on that it could kill you, you know, it makes you wish you were dead. That's for sure. Oh my God. It's horrific. You know, like depression, depression, you cannot describe depression to someone who didn't go through it because they always, I always told people, I used to have a crying baby. What hurt?

So do you have like injury, physical, bodily injury? No. So why are you acting up very much? You know, why are you tripping? You know, but this is when I have this episode, I cannot eat. I cannot drink. I cannot sleep. I'm so scared. I have always to have someone beside me, you know, watching over me. You know, and I'm much better now, I'm much better now,

but I acknowledge that I'm very vulnerable, I'm very weak, there are heavy stuff that I need to deal with, you know, with professional health and so on and so forth. So I'm not going to put a brave face and try to sell you something that is not there. Yeah. All right, so let's go back to the plane.

So you're on the plane to the United States. And you think you're done? Yes, I thought to us to the United States. And then I almost died because I couldn't pee in the diaper. I kept squeezing, but my head refused to pee. And after what I thought five hours, the plane started to lose altitude. I was telling you, no, this is not the US. The US is not five hours. And then it landed. And then they took me out because I felt the wind and then they put me in a

chopper because very loud I could hear through the year. And then they put me in a truck and then I start hearing language I never heard before. It's not English, it's not German, it's not Arabic, turns out it's some tribe of Ghani language that I never heard. And so I landed, turns out in Bagram, Airbase. And then they took me to this And I spent that they started torching that prison. And so, but it's not like very heavy, they just like keep me. Like on my knees for very long hours, you know, I couldn't see. And then very much and then they put like strobe light over my head for hours. И они очень много, и они сфотографировали, об этом было для нас. И они, в первый раз, они сфотографировали.

И они сфотографировали. И, ну, они сфотографировали. И они сфотографировали, они сфотографировали. И они сфотографировали. И они сфотографировали. И они сфотографировали. И они сфотографировали. They make it and they put me in some clothes and I said they said me and IP Pete like there is no tomorrow

Then I felt so good. I didn't care what they did to me Because now I paid because because now I felt I'm a free person. I'm surviving, you know and So they took me they asked me what languages, they brought Arabic translated, they asked me what languages I spoke. Then I said German among others. They said German, you're a liar, because who speaks German in this one?

No one. And then they brought a special agent, C.I. agent, who spoke German. Right then, and then he spoke to me in German. And he looked at them and said, this guy speak German better than I. And then he looked at me, he said, Varheit machti. True. Yes. True, true. Yes. True, true. True, true. True, true.

True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true.

True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. True, true. or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or was like, he was like, explaining to me a lot of American culture.

And so, and he told me very much that I was screwed because in America, it's, he told me, accusation is enough. In this, in this situation, yes, that's enough. That's enough. You will not be free for a very long time. And you may be, he said, you may be guilty or not. I don't know. I don't have the information, but I can assure you that you would be treated as a guilty person. And he was very frank with me. And he loved the assumption would have to be on the part of the people that had now arrested you and that we're bringing you back to the United States. They're all going to assume that you're guilty, obviously. Correct.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is the greatness of democracy of the rule of law that the state violence is kept in check. Is the state violent? Violence anywhere in the world? It doesn't matter your culture, it doesn't matter whether you're Christian, you're Jewish, you're Muslim, you're agnostic, you're Buddhist.

Human beings always commit atrocities against other human beings. And the state has so much tools of oppression that the state cannot be, must not be, just left without checks. I mean, it's OK to say, Jordan is a bad person. That's OK to say, especially by the state, but the state cannot harm you or put you in prison if they don't have evidence that is,

that's going to be checked by a third independent parody that is, that does not subscribe to the bureaucracy of the state. And, you know, this is like, this is like everywhere. And this obsession, 9-11 was very horrific act. And let's say that full stop. So the United States, if the United States, there was a very big debate, whether democracy and the rule of law can protect the United States of America. And a lot of people in the CIA, in FBI, and what's not, believe that the rule of law is not enough. They have to go outside the role of law in order to protect the United States. And they have this obsession with dictatorial regimes from the Middle East.

I know this because they told me that, you know, they don't need gloves, they go down and dirty. And so, and I was like, oh my God, I grew up in a military dictatorship. And people are not safe in a military dictatorship. Well, democracy might not be, make people safe, but there isn't an alternative that makes them more safe. So... Absolutely. Absolutely. And democracy is millions times safer than dictatorships. You know, because in a dictatorship, there is no way around corruption. There is no way around corruption, you know, in a dictatorship, there is no way around corruption.

There is no way around corruption in a dictatorship. And the corruption would hit also the security apparatus. And I know this because I could see the contrast where I grew up during military rule. And Germany, Germany, you can walk any time you want. No one is going to hurt you, no one is, and in Germany, no one can arrest you without due process. And this whole obsession that we need to treat people outside the law of law, that's how we protect.

I say, this is wrong, and this is just an opinion. This is not a scientific, I don't have a scientific, but I would say it is wrong. And this is just an opinion. This is not a scientific, I don't have a scientific, but I would say it's wrong. And the empirical evidence is in the, in the, what we see, Western democracies are much safer than any other country in the Middle East. So back to the helicopter. I was taken out of the aircraft and put in a chopper.

And I have to mention that the CIA did not torture me during the trip from Jordan. No, this guy was very gentle, he didn't hurt me and that that wouldn't be the role in the future because in Guantanamo Bay and in in Bagram, every move, the guards who moved me, they ruffed me up and they used, you know used the move from one place to the next to if leaked pain on me like pinching me or dragging me, you know, or run away and then I cannot run because I have shackles on my feet. But this all happened, I think, on the instructions of my interrogators. So anyway, so they took me and I peed for the first time on my knees.

And that felt really, really good. I didn't care about anything else. And I was stripped naked again. And then they took a hair, you know, from my hair, and they interrogated me. The first interrogation didn't seem, they didn't seem to be very well informed about who I was. They just had a script. It was like, where is Usela Bin Laden? Where is Mullah Omar? Mullah Omar is the former president of the Taliban. And they didn't know that I was in a prison.

I wasn't out there. I wasn't picked up from a battlefield. So I had no clue. And where did that interrogation take place? Right when I was taken out of the chopper. And so interrogation was done, they took me, put me in an isolation cell. And this woman came to me, she said,

if you want to go to the bathroom, I remember this. You can ask this person because there was no bathroom in myself. And you know, like, I didn't speak English and bathroom sounded like baddett's image, like just literal translation, but in German it means something else. It means a place where you take a bath. And I was thinking, oh my God, those people are so nice. I really want to take a bath. I said, I want to go to the bathroom.

And they took me to a barrel full of human feces. And just put in a place. to a barrel full of human feces. And just put in a place and they say, this is the bathroom. Cause they didn't have like bathrooms, like they have just like barrels and then the tennis would do the barrels. And it's very tricky because it's hanging, it's life.

It's like very high up. And then that was my first English, you know, real English word. So that bathroom is not a place to take a bath. And I was taken to Guantanamo Bay and it was very torturous. I mean, they, you know, again, so we were put in the same shackle. We were about 34, I think, the tenies. There was a shackle that connected all of us.

And they start processing us, blind fall, all kinds of shackles, and put us in the plane. And I couldn't breathe because I have claustrophobia. I almost died, you know. And this guy came to me and he told me, forget about it. I never forget this. And it was like, okay, either I survive or I die. So I'm not going to get any relief. Because I wanted him to remove the mask on my face because I couldn't breathe because of the mask. You know, just like this, this, this Corona mask, you know, but I couldn't breathe with it. You know, I think mostly because of my claustrophobia. And we arrived in Guatano Bay after I think mostly because of my cholesterol phobia.

And we arrived in Guatano Bay after I think more than 30 hours. And it was like, oh my god, I was so happy that I arrived somewhere, because so much pain, you know, everywhere. And they put me like they pushed me, you know, in what seemed like open space. Then I felt the sun. And then, you know, I was like, you know, this is, you know, this is much better. In my mind, now I'm under the full authority of the United States. No more. You were 30 hours in transport before then. You thought you thought it was about that? I think it was more.

And what what kind of transport was it? Were you you said you were on a plane? Yes. And the plane changed places. I think change place and stop somewhere, you you know I stopped somewhere once or twice right so so was the direct flight no no no it wasn't and so I arrived so I we started off in the morning of 4th of August 2002 and we arrived the next day, 4th of August, 5th of August. And they processed us and I remember this gentleman came coming to me and he spoke in Russian too. And I didn't speak in Russian. And then, you know, we were all naked because they stripped us in the room. And those like, you cannot get those images out of your head, you know. You are naked watching naked people around you, you know.

And this guy looked at me, I was smiling on the time. You know, and this guy looked at me and said, where did they catch you? I remember this question. And I didn't understand it. I kept saying, what? He kept saying, where did he catch you? And then he was very frustrated with me.

And then he said, never mind, something like never mind. And then I understood, I said, home, something like that. And because I was captured home. And the last thing I saw when the police came to me was And the last thing I saw when the police came to me was the image smaller, until I turned right, then she disappeared. At that point, I did not think that I would never see my mother again, but I never saw my mother again. I was never allowed to attend the health funeral.

I was never allowed to say goodbye to my mother. And so we arrived and my first interrogation, it put me in a room. And you know, I always like being kind of demanding because I thought, oh, this is a cell. And I said, but this cell is small, but it was really big, big room. You know, human beings are very, you know, they always like compare.

And I thought this is like very small room. And then I tried to stand up and discover myself around them. There was no one. And then I was dragged really forcefully down. And then I saw there is a bolt holding me to the ground. I was not aware of. And then I realized, I'm not free in this room. I cannot move around.

Then this two gentlemen, three gentlemen came in for me. One is Bill. He said his name is Bill. And he's from the FBI. He was about my age, you know, 30, about early 31. And another person by the name of Paul, his name is Paul, I know his name. And then, and now, at least you can remember these, these details. And then, translated from Morocco, because I didn't speak English. And then they came to my room,

and then they started asking me questions. And Paul had an empty water bottle bottle and he kept speeding in it. And I was saying, what does his spit? And then it was like very disgusting and black. And then later on, I learned this is normal in the US, you know, I was like looking at the USS, you know, very sophisticated people. They have USS, you know, very sophisticated people, and they have like, you know, so he was sitting back. Oh, yes, he was sitting back, he was speeding in front of everybody, and everybody could see the disgusting like speed, very thick, very black. And I know I'm not sophisticated. I know my people are not sophisticated. I know that because that's where I grew up. But my image of American because of the movies.

Very sophisticated, you know, very, like, clean, very organized. That's what was my first glimpse. I know they're just like other human beings. I was just waiting on the other FBI guy to pick his nose because that's the next level, you know, speeding in a battle, you need to pick your nose to complete the picture. And they didn't do anything, they asked me whether I was mistreated in Jordan. I said, I don't want to answer that question.

And that was for a couple of reasons. I didn't want to tell them that it's possible to torture me. I didn't want them to know it's normal. possible to torture me. I didn't want them to know it's normal. And the second thing, I didn't want them, I didn't want them to trick me into giving them details. You know, I just want to keep it very, very brief with them. So no information about that torture. They said it's not necessary. But they told me in the United States, we don't torture people. And I was very happy because that's what I thought too,

because I watched married with children, a comedy. So it was very funny. And I watched law and order back home. So this is America, funny, and the role of law. And so they kept this interrogation like almost on a daily basis, but I wasn't confessing to any, any amazing stuff. They were not discovering anything. And that was very frustrating for them.

So they, the commander of the base and other people demanded that I need to, I need to be put in a program to encourage me to cooperate with them. I was blissfully unaware, but in Washington, they were devising a program of torches, so-called enhanced interrogation technique that was devised just for me. I don't know. Everything is in there, but I think it's a document

that is accessible. But what I received was sexual assault. I mean, full physical contact. It's not like, it's not like, they're already talking or that, because that happened too, but I mean direct, you know, like sexual assault rape.

And that was really bad. And then the first 70 days, when they took me, I remember the first day. So the FBI came to me on 22nd of May, 2002. And the FBI guy, no 2003, sorry, my, my bad. And the FBI guy, his name was, his name was, was Rob Sidler, Rob or Sidler. He gave me a book called America and its people. It's about the history of America, you know. You know, it's, you know, and I love history. And it had you also, how had you learned to speak English by that point?

Yes, a little bit with very heavy accent, but I understood almost everything I read because of my French vocabulary. And I like to read a lot, especially in prison, whenever they give me something, I keep reading it. So I read this American in people many times, like it's very academic, academic, and so, and he told me, this is the last day, his boss told him that I was not giving him the information, and he told me that my life was going to change, that he wants me to cooperate with the next thing. changed that he wants me to cooperate with the next thing.

And so, later on, I think one month, so they tried to, another team tried to intimidate me everything, like military and other undefined agencies. But I told them, no, I'm not talking to you anyway. So, you can do whatever you want. Kind of was very defined, kind of, very stupid from me. And what would have been your alternative? What else could have you done, do you think? Was there anything else other than, I mean, if you had nothing to confess, it's

not that straightforward to cooperate, obviously. Yes, it's impossible. Then you do it, then you don't, because look, I thought about this a lot, because if you confess without torture, that's very heavy burden. I had to wait on torture because that's the only way you could... I'm this is hindsight, you could explain, I didn't do this, this is torture, you know. And so, I was very scared, but I kept saying, you need to tell me what I did, and then I can cooperate with you. As long as you don't tell me, I'm not going to cooperate. And I was very like, measured and logical and defiant and even smart kind of smart with them. Like I can tell you, for instance, they tell me ask me like FBI, ask me question, even

before the program. Okay, they ask me the same question next day. And I say, you ask me this day and I answer then they would say, but we want to make sure I don't lie and I would say, I remember all the lies I said since I left home. I was comfortable enough to let out my frustration with them. let out my frustration with them, you know. This, this going to change dramatically. So they came to me, the guards, and then they came in front of myself on my block, and they said, Reservation, that's the code word that you are going to be taken away.

And I said, where? Because usually they tell you interrogation or medical or something. So why they tell me it's none of your business. And I knew I was in trouble. And then so they had these rubber gloves. And then when they start put me in shackle, I read on the rubber glove India black. And then I told the tennis, my co-detainees,

I'm going to be taken to India. India black is torture black. So we know that because the black was designed for 30 detainees, but there was only one detainee. They take only one or two detainees for torture. So when they took me there, I found one detainee and soon that detainee was taken away. So I was by myself. The first 70 days in that blood, no sleep. So and you would ask how how how how couldn't you sleep sleep is just sleep, you know. So the way they did it interrogation 24 so So they have like three shifts.

So one interrogator, then the next interrogator, then the next interrogator. Just like, you know, like conveyor belt in a car industry plan. And how do they keep you awake? I mean, after a couple of days, you must have been like falling asleep at every second. Correct, correct. So, they put me back in myself,

and then they let me lie down, and then the guard keeps banging every like one hour or so, they come and beg at my door and it's so cold you cannot sleep because freezing cold in the cell and I didn't have proper clothes so it was to be honest the recollection is really hazy because I was not in the state of mind to remember I may have very false a lot of false memories but I can only tell you the best of my guess what went on and later on they made very efficient methods that most efficient I know this is bad because other people would like to torture people. They would know this, but I can tell you very efficient. Every hour they wake me up and they make me drink water every hour.

Wake you up, make you drink water. You can never sleep when someone does this too. Because you will always go to the bathroom, continuous sleep. You will like, behalf of sleep, go to the bathroom, have a sleep, go to the bathroom, continuously. You will like, behalf of sleep, go to the bathroom, have sleep, go to the bathroom, have sleep over, over, over. The only method they didn't do to me, and they got told me about it because I confess. A falsely confess was shower.

He told me, the other detail, they put him under the shower and they turned under the shower 24-7. I wasn't looking forward to that. So I didn't know because I kept negotiating my torch. I kept telling them, I'm dying. Actually, it was true because Gur Rahman died in order to tell you, this is on record. Gur Rahman, you can look it up. He died in the cold room. He couldn't take it because hypothermia sat in and they found him dead in his cell. And so the room was artificially cooled?

Yes, yes. But I have to say this, they didn't like bring to my mind, they didn't bring like special equipment to call it down. They just like completely cracked up the AC to its fullest, you know, because the AC was not designed to kill people, but I do believe that where you grow up, I'm sure a candidate will not die under an AC, but a more retaining like me growing up in the desert. It's very harmful to them because my body is not used to this type of temperature. And I kept telling them, you are killing me, I mean.

And I remember this doctor because when I say like, these things I'm saying with love, because I know American people are good people, just like any Canadian like, we didn't buy a large people are good people, just like any Canadian, like Mourdi, and by a large are good people. And I remember this doctor, I think he's a commander or in the Navy. He was a doctor. And part of the program, torsion program, I'm not allowed to take medication, okay, for pain relief, because that would defeat the purpose of the torch. But I was really very sick because of my

psychic nerve, and they took me to this doctor, commanded. He has a leaf, I think they called it a command. And he looked at them, he said, remove the shackles. And then they removed they said, do not give me the tennis with shackles on my table, something like that, he was very upset. And then I saw my window. I said, oh, this is a good guy. I need to complain. You know, I was like drowning and I was just seeing anything and tried so much. I said, I'm really doing, I'm having so much pain, I really need you to talk to them to stop this. He told me I cannot. He told me that he cannot interfere with interrogation.

You know, but he would write a report that I'm really very sick. And he did write the report. And the reason why I know he did because years later on my interrogators found the report in their discovery. Discovery means when your lawyer asks for secret documents, you know, related to your case. And but I was just like doing nothing. They just, I let them do their things. I'm not talking to them, nothing. Just like a stone every day. And sometimes I say a little one day like,

being nice to me, but say something that has nothing to do with anything. And one day, it was, I think, August 23, when I remember correctly, of 2003, August 27. And then a police lieutenant by the name of Richard Zule, late on, I learned he's from Chicago. And he's very infamous because he was involved in torturing some people back in Chicago, in the US, man, he came to me.

And I sat in front of him, he was very stern, very serious and he handed me a letter from DOD and he asked me to read it. In that letter, it says that due to the lack, something like due to the lack of my cooperation, the US government has had no choice but to arrest my mother and put her in only men prison. And that, they know that I was involved in

millennial plot and in the atrocious acts of 9-11, etc. etc. I didn't know how to answer, but I because I was very scared. I told him this is unfair. I didn't know what to say. unfair. I didn't know what to say. And he told me, we are not looking for justice. We are trying to stop people from driving planes into the buildings. Something like that. I'm sure he's English is much better than mine. And I was like, okay, go ahead and look for those people. And I was like, okay, go ahead and look for those people. You know, so when he left, I, you know, I had nothing more to lose and I was ready to confess to everything and anything. And but I didn't know how, I didn't know how to start it, you know. But he helped me. So I don't know a couple of days later on or one day, I don't remember.

I was in interrogation room with self-surgent Mary. Mary, you know, she has her human side, even though she actively participated in torture, notably in sexual assault. You know, she was kind of, you know, at least ambivalent about what she was doing. And this like three masked men came to the room and then one of them was holding German Shepherd and the other star just putting me down, beating me everywhere, like viciously beating.

And then she stood up and she was crying. She was like, why you do this, why you do this? Like it was like total chaos. Then they took me out of the room, never stop beating me until I stopped breathing because I couldn't breathe anymore because my ribs broke. And it was like the the pressure on my on my lungs and the pain of breathing through your broken ribs is just so painful. And I was like, all the time, and they were like making fun of this noise. I couldn't see anything, you know, then they took me, they started putting this water, you know, forcing this salt water, my nose, my mouth, then they give me to another team. I don't know three hours and then another team. And Richard Zulistud, I could hear him in the pose before they gave me to the next film.

He was like, kind of, we appreciate the cooperation of all countries to take down the terrorists, something like that, you know. And this guy with Egyptian accent, his English was very poor. And another guy from Syria, I only spoke Arabic. I would say Syrian accent, to be precise, because there was no way for me to know he is no no Jordanian accent. So, and so they took me and those people utilized a different technique. So what they did, they strapped me on a chair, very,

you know, very like strong chair, and then they put something over my body, like overall I believe. And then they start beating me, beating me until I couldn't take any more of the, they feel everything with eyes. Everything. Then when this eyes start to melt, they come back and beat. And they were saying that I will confess and so, and they are going to take me to Egypt and to Jordan. In my mind, I was thinking, but I've been to Jordan

and no miracles happened. So why they take me again to Jordan. And one thing in my mind, since Richard Zouli meeting, I want to conference. I want to say everything, but I didn't know how to do it. Honestly, that's only my problem. They... So they took me around 5.30 pm. And about 1.30 in the morning, next day,

because I saw the watch of the medic as he started to treat me. So, he came, they put me in a cell, and the medic, you know, Стоит, что он пристал, но он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он встал, и он for Dunohar and so he treated me actually. So he put like some band, bandaid around my, around my ribs, a lot of it and he gave me a lot of medication. I don't know what it was. And then this was August 24th or. I don't remember. But the second how long had you been there by then?

No, this is a new prison. So this is a new prison. The night I came, this is a new prison. So I stayed there almost until one year before my release or two years before my release. So I never, so, so what I remember vividly are two things between, so this is August and the second thing I remember October 10th, because I saw a watch, you know, again the interrogate was sitting and then looked briefly at his watch and then I saw the date. But, but just before that, you know, I was, I cannot describe to you how much pain I wasn't because I cannot, there are no words.

I'm alone. I don they withhold foods for I don't know how many days until I almost die, and they give me a lot of like a Marie, a Marie me ready to eat, very bad food, at least to me. But I cannot eat it because when I'm depressed, I cannot eat. And they give to me and they give me one minute, but they don't respect the minute. I think they give 20 seconds and they take everything back. But I'm happy because I don't want to see them. I just want to pass and die without pain, you know, something like that.

And so, I start in myself to sing, like, Quran, when they are not there like to sing, to just to feel good, like, pray and so. And they came to me with force. They said if I pray again they will beat me up. And then they force feed me when Ramadan came, they come during their force feed me. I didn't know it was, I know somehow Ramadan but and actually I know somehow Ramadhar, but... And actually I know somewhere during day, I know somewhere during day, why? When I go to the bathroom, I look inside the bathroom and I could see the light of the day through the plumbing. So, in that the time, when they force feed me very little, just to make sure I'm not respecting

Ramadan. So, that's only I'm just trying to put you in the picture that to understand how destroyed my spirit was. Then I did this prayer and I asked Allah for guidance, i.e. God, because I didn't know لذا أعرف أن أرى أن He said, okay, I will send you the people and he sent me first-large and shout and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and first-large and then I was just like, whooo, no-stuff, ask me, do you know, like, Jordan Peterson, yes, he's a terrorist, I know him, I saw him. He was preparing, you know, everybody I know is a bad guy. And so, and then, you know, because interrogation is a technique,

they don't ask you the hard question in the beginning. They always start, so after what were to do study, what school did you go to, you know, to prep you up. And then they said, everything you said is good, we appreciate your cooperation, everything. But you need to tell us something that would put you in the prison, because everything you said, America, he told me, it's very liberal country. And they need hard evidence. And then he said, you were in Canada,

you may have wanted to attack the Sientao. The only problem, I didn't know what Sientao was, nor did I know where. And then he said like in Toronto. And then I said yes, and it made sense to everything. So I said okay, and he confronted me with a phone conversation I had in Canada. I think it was on 22nd, street 22nd. You know, I was living with my friend Mohsin because I didn't have an apartment. This was in Montreal?

Correct. I love material by the way. It's beautiful, the streets. I never saw in my life a street that is 4,500. House. That's, you know, you know, Europe, like the longest street in Germany is 150 or 200. That's it. But I remember Jantalo, 4,532.

What kind of street is that? Like, when I say, oh oh I live in Jatalo on my friend lives in Jatalo well you guys close no we are not close so it was 22nd and we were living and then you know we like tea in Mauritania at least this culture we appreciate tea and it was I think 9 p.m. and it was really cool. This is December, late December. And it was really cool and I really liked it. And this guy, our neighbor, he wants to come over and drink tea. And I said, could you please swing by the depanar.

You know, this is depanar, it's... Punish to... Yes, yeah. Could you please swing by and get us some sugar? Yeah, sugar, I think. I didn't have sugar. And then they kept asking me, they intercept this conversation. What do you mean when you say TN sugar? And I would say, I meant TN sugar. Wrong answer. So in this confession, I told you say TN sugar? And I would say, I meant TN sugar, wrong answer. So in this confession, I told them that TN sugar are explosive.

So and so we just give them this nickname. That's where I built the bomb. And they said, OK, why do you do me this guy? I said, this guy helped me. So everybody had a role. So now everything made sense to them because all the guys around who were bad people and now they had a job.

So they gave money. We brought this from Chichin smugglers and I put everything in the confession. And they asked me to sign the confession and I did sign the confession. You know and so what was happening behind the scene was I was being designated for death penalty. So, and the guy who took the case was Colonel Kouch, he was Marines. And he was like a very decent person, you know. I mean, he said he told them, this doesn't make sense to me. He said, he denied everything.

And from one day to the next he said, no more denial, what's going on? Then they wouldn't tell him anything and then he made investigation on his own and he found out I was heavily tortured. And then he resigned, he resigned and later on they give the case to Colonel Maurice Davis, they call him more Davis, Elfos Colonel, I know him, we are friends now and he, so they said, okay, we need to put this guy on lie detector. So because the team who was interrogating him, they said they have the gold nugget, a confession, from a very bad guy. And the analyst said, BS, he didn't do this.

This is BS. Whatever you do to him, we don't know, but this is what he said is BS. So they came to me and they put me on this light detector. I said, guys, I'm an engineer. I cannot go through this because I will tell the truth. And then they said, it doesn't matter, you have to. And then I was so scared because now with the confession, I had the status of admitted criminal. And I had the right to eat, I had the right to pray, I had the right to sleep for the first time. I didn't care what they did to me after that, you know.

And then now I was so scared to go back to torture when I deny everything, but they told me this was coming from very high level people in the government that I need. Then I remember one of the question, did you ever plot or conspire to plot against the US? And I said, and Canada, and the guy told he said, I don't give a shit about Canada. I was like, good for you. I was in my head because I couldn't say that, you know, and you know, this is like very like Americans,

I'm sure you understand because you're North American. You know, this is, you know, very America's because, and I was so happy because I was so upset with Canada, so upset. Like if you would tell me, I would more upset that they was or Canada, I would say Canada, because I was a landed immigrant in Canada and I was, they scared

me so much instead of protecting me. They threw me under the bus, you know, they completely swallowed everything that came from the CIA, FBI or whatnot. And without doing their own investigation and say, you know what, this is a guy in our territory. And this is a guy, we owe him the protection. And we need to know, if he's a bad guy, we don't protect bad guys, but we need to understand he's a guy, we need to find out. And so when he said that, it was like the only thing we agree on. Thank you. So, and then I passed the test from like a death penalty case to someone who didn't do anything. You know, I was like, sorry, let me get that clear.

So you did the lie detector test and what did it reveal? It revealed that your confession was false? Everything I said that was incriminating was false. Have you ever conspired? Yeah, have you ever conspired? Do you ever talk to anyone about harming the was? Never? Not okay. So so during the during the lie detector test you told the truth about everything. I see I see and so that notified your confession. Yes, I denied everything and truthfully. So they took the

the test and they fought over it. They said they had one of them insisted to come next day or next week and to do again the test. They did the test again and again I passed the test. So all of those tests are now in my hands on my computer because my lawyer gave them to me and they were presented at my court. So I was there. So the torture effectively stopped, no, stopped the end of 2000, 2000, early 2000, for there was no more torture. So that was so you were you were in the torture prison for two years. If I got that timeline right?

No, no, no, no, okay, the torsia, the intensive torture was between May, no, was between June of 2003 and early 2004, a little bit over half a year. Okay, and tell me again, when you were, when you were brought to Guantanamo Bay, tell me when you arrived there? I arrived August 5th of 2003. Okay. Two, two, two. Yes. And yes. So, and so, but what happened that they just didn't know what to do with me. So, and I was just there, you know, and they wouldn't release me and they wouldn't take me to trial. They wouldn't release me because they thought I was, I wouldn't have so much, I saw so

much and they didn't want me to reveal it. At least that's my understanding of that of my lawyers. And second, they couldn't take me to any trial because there was no crime to be tried. That was the conclusion of Moe Davis. And he wrote this in memorandum, he said, there is no evidence this guy did anything against us.

And on record, they said that. And so you have to forward. So then I start making friendship with guards and with interrogators. I just start to be inmate. You know, I start like, you know, the guards are start to be my friends and they introduce me to American pop culture, music, you know, when

they bring books, I they borrow from the books. So did they do they realize at that point that they treat you as if you were innocent apart? Obviously they didn't release you, but your treatment radically improved. so did they believe you, your guards and so on? That's very hard to, you know, because we didn't speak about my innocence or my guilt, you know, they... Because it was like a taboo topic almost. I didn't feel comfortable to talk about it because it's so cliched for the 10th person saying I'm innocent. So I don't want to be a cliché, absolutely not.

I just want whatever, you know, whatever. I'm just. But you also must have been quite relieved. I would suspect since your days had improved substantially. Oh, you have no clue how relieved I was, but I was a mess. You know, because. You know, because I start hearing voices. And I start really to get very sick. And then they put me on two medication,

a paxle and the other, clonoppe, and then... And... So, like most of this time I was isolation, and then I begged them to take me out of the isolation, but they refused. Then after I think two or three years, I didn't want to see people anymore. And to this day, you know, Jordan, I don't, I don't feel comfortable around people. I always feel comfortable when I'm alone, you know, because how much time did you spend alone

over those those years? Okay. Okay. 2000, 2016. About 10 years. Mostly alone. How often would you see people? Just God. Just sorry, just. Just the gods and the staff. I see only the gods and the staff. And what sort of cell were you in?

What was it like? It was like, I think, six by eight. No, I don't think it's sex because that's, I think it's four, four by six. I don't want to pin myself, but, what, maybe four by six feet, four by eight, eight feet, four by eight. When was there a bed in it in the cell? Yes, it was like a metal sheet.

That's made into a bed. You can look it up. You can look Guantanamo beds, present, and then you will see the self. So you're alone for almost 10 years in that self. Correct. Correct. And so how did it come to be that you got legal representation and were able to start to free yourself?

Some UK citizens went to court because they were with us and they had good lawyers. Then they made it all the way to the Supreme Court. And then they want the right to be challenged their detention. And I was not aware of this because I had no right even to contact anyone. But the family of that's the advantage of a free country. So UK is a free country. So their families, they fought very much for everyone. And so I had all of a sudden, I benefited from this UK citizens because that I was given to everyone. And in 2005, mid 2005, I met my lawyers for the first time.

I met Nancy Hollander and Sylvia Royce. They came to me. I saw them as a window, and I started to write my story, my memoir. So what did you think when you when the lawyer showed up? I was so happy, you know, and I remember the first time they came to me, I sat on a chair like this with a desk in front of me. It was like one of the standard interrogation room. Then I stood up and then I started to say hi, but I couldn't, I wouldn't move because I was bolted, but they couldn't see the chain.

And they were like sitting there because they were briefed that the tenis are deities people so they were scared. I was very happy honestly. And how long did it take your lawyers to understand your story and I presume believe you? Yes, very long, very long because the accused is innocent until proven guilty, only your mother believed this. So people at large and I'm sure you understand this, people perceive the accused as well. It will be very hard for someone to believe that you had spent that long in Guentonimo Bay and weren't guilty of something.

I mean, because they would have to question the validity of the entire system. And that's not an easy thing to do. And it's probably even a harder thing to do if you are from a country where rule of law is the norm. Correct. Yes. Correct. Yes, yes, absolutely. You know, and I mean, I can't say more than what you said. And I was like, okay, how can I explain to them?

And then they were very shocked when the government, when they forced compelled the government to show them, the government showed them the confession, he confessed and then they were very upset when they said, why are you lying to us? And so, and I was like, oh my, the government only showed them, I confess, they showed them, I was torsion. Did they show them the lie detector results? Much later because the government hold all the cards and then they show only the thing they want to show.

And you know like the democracy and the rule of law is promised that the three branches of the government cooperate with each other. So, and the executive power has so much power over judiciary and the parliament, because only the executive power has weapons, has violence, could use violence, because a judge can only tell you, you're right, right you can go home but the judge doesn't have the key to open the cell and let you go home. So the executive power has to cooperate and respect the judiciary by enlarge this function in democracies, but in the case of Guantano Bay, the executive power completely showed

a great deal of contempt toward court system. So how did your lawyers free you? How did that happen? Look, this is not easy because they had to prove that I was innocent. That was like mission impossible because they have to show the government I'm innocent. It's not the burden, it's not of the government this is and I say this very frankly and very straight the problem with the crime they call terrorism is that it's very political very politicized and especially in my part of the world I can speak to that it's used to oppress

peaceful mostly peaceful political descent and to crush, and to people who don't like just to put them in prison because they could be your political rivals. And fortunately, this playbook of the dictatorial regime, the Middle East and authoritarian regimes, was copied in Guataramo Bay, and they just just say you're terrorists because when someone says you're terrorists everything could be done against you and there is no definition and I have big problem with that. I don't think that philosophically in a democracy terrorism should be a crime. Terrorism in a democracy cannot be a crime because one is not clearly defined. Terrorists in Canada are not terrorists in Egypt. Terrorists in Egypt are not terrorists in Saudi Arabia.

Terrorists are not terrorists in Palestine and Israel, etc. etc. But a murderer is a murderer because same thing in Canada and the US and Mauritania, if you kill someone, that's a crime. And it can be proven very easily. But you could be a terrorist in Egypt and as soon as you get to Canada, you're a good citizen. And second, it's used for political purposes and political political purposes and political oppression.

And it's used to, or I need to bail out. So, and it's used to, to punish people on mass. I can give you an example. Just a few months ago, the Hothi in Yemen were a terrorist group. And then now they are not a terrorist group anymore. What kind of justice is that? So how did your lawyers prove that to the satisfaction of the people who could release you that you should be released? They took me to, so we fought to go to the court system.

So I was intimidated, I was threatened, but I said I'm going to come. In 2009, we succeeded to be heard by the late George Robertson. I mean, Robert Jackson, Judge Robertson. And he ordered my release in 2010. So he heard us in late 2009, ordered my list in 2000, and he said there is no evidence to hold this guy. And the government refused, and then they appealed, they appealed Hank, you know, and I, so my book was published after a very big fight. And then after the public,

you know, my book, The Government said they want to review my case, they reviewed my case, they said, I'm not threat to the US in 2016, July of 2016. And in October of 2016, they said, I can go home and of store. Now a movie was made out of that book as well. and of stone. Now a movie was made out of that book as well. A movie, the Mauritonian, please go and watch the movie and make up your own mind and it's pretty accurate and there is no hero in the movie just like a bunch of people. And it shows like just, you know, the weakness

of human beings. And you're attitude towards all of this now? Total forgiveness. Because I believe in reconciliation. I believe that our life is too short to hold grudges and to wage wars because we need each other. You know, my country needs the United States and the United States could need my country and we need to be brothers and sisters and we need to cooperate and make our world a better place and I'm starting by Honestly and earnestly say that I hold no grudge against anyone and I'm ready to cooperate with anyone Regardless of their religion their background their ideological political ideology And why did you come to that decision? political ideology. And why did you come to that decision? Because of the diapers story I told you one of the CIA put me in a diaper in diapers and I

faced that I want to be a better person. And you hung on to that through the time that you were in Guantanamo Bay? Absolutely. I couldn't honestly express it because people could say, oh, he's just scared. But now I'm a free man. I couldn't honestly express it because people could say, ah, he's just scared. But now I'm a free man. I could say it and I'm inviting everyone. I'm meeting Guatarabe to come to me. Some people came to me and with the drug tea, they stayed at my home, one of the guards. Steve Wood, he came to me three times. And I hosted him in my humble room. And why did he come to see you, do you think? We became friends.

We became good friends. You know, he's the Godfather of my child. I'm the Godfather of his daughter. And we just want to be friends and to show everyone that peace can be made. We don't need to hold grudges. Is there anything else you want to say? I would like to say I am so honored to be on your show. And I thank you so much to give me your platform

and allow me to share my story with your audience. Well, thank you for walking through it. I'm sure that's far from pleasant to do that. You have no clue. Yes. Thank God for that. Yes, thank God for that. Mahamadi, it was very good of you to talk with me. I wish you the best. Thank you so much. And I please take care of yourself and get healthy. It's the most important thing. Much appreciated. Thank you. Thank you. you