The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 212. Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity with Word on Fire

Episode Date: December 28, 2021

This episode was recorded on September 6, 2021.Dr. Christopher Kaczor, Dr. Matthew Petrusek, and I discuss their new book “Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity”—the first systematic analysis of 12 Rules for Life and my biblical series from a Christian perspective. We also cover—just to name a few—truth in fiction, time before consciousness, faith, evolution, love, and acting as if God exists.Dr. Christopher Kaczor is a Professor of Philosophy at Loyola Marymount University. He was appointed a Corresponding Member of the Pontifical Academy for Life of Vatican City, is a fellow of the Word on Fire Institute, and won a Templeton Grant for his work. He has written many scholarly articles and books.Dr. Matthew R. Petrusek is an associate professor at Loyola Marymount University in LA. He holds an MA from Yale and a PhD from the University of Chicago. Dr. Petrusek specializes in Christian ethics and moral theology and lectures on a range of topics surrounding philosophy, theology, and Catholicism.Find more Dr. Christopher Kaczor on Twitter @Prof_Kaczor:https://twitter.com/prof_kaczorAnd more Dr. Matthew Petrusek @MattPetrusek:https://twitter.com/MattPetrusekGet their book athttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095J3SB9M/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0[00:00] Intro[02:26] The motivation behind "Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity"[09:34] Genesis, the literal sense in scripture and the truth in fiction[10:21] "The Atheist types miss that fiction isn't false" Jordan Peterson[11:45] "A story that can change your life has a power that is best described as religious" JP[12:23] Truth in fiction and religious text[14:00] "I think truth is broader [than the empirically verifiable]"[18:44] The problem with the empirical approach and replacing God[22:07] "[When] Ceasar becomes inflated to God, all hell breaks loose" JP[22:35] "If we don't segregate off the religious instinct and give it its proper attention, [everything] starts becoming inappropriately contaminated with religious longing. That's why you see [division and] the rise in powerful political ideologies" JP[23:32] On the perversion of the religious instinct[25:41] The Bible's warning in Noah and the tower of Babel[30:43] Time before consciousness[36:43] "Matter at the quantum level makes it difficult to think of a universe without conscious observers" JP [40:45] Are science and religion at odds? [44:00] Dr. Petrusek on science/religion[46:31] On Faith[54:52] Imitating the spirit of the Father[54:56] "You can conceptualize Christ as the representation of all things admirable." JP[57:53] "Faith is the willingness to act that out in the world" JP[01:00:27] Why we must strive to be good[01:01:12] "I am loved and I wish to love, and I recognize that I will fail time and time again" Matthew Petrusek[01:05:26] Evolution and religion[01:11:09] The creation of the universe[01:11:36] The church and Dr. Peterson's popularity[01:15:41] "Faith cannot oppose reason" MP[01:16:48] The challenge of drawing younger people to church[01:33:31] Acting as if God exists[01:36:37] "Your life isn’t about you and your own thoughts" MP[01:39::46] "When people fall in love with one another, they see the perfection that could conceivably exist. It's like the curtains of illusion pull apart momentarily, and you see the paradisal state that could be there" JP[01:40:10] God's love and the love between a parent and a child[01:43:07] How to treat those we love[01:43:29] "The more love you view other people with, the higher the moral demand that’s placed on you" JP[01:44:25] “I think there’s too much moral authority in the church" JP[01:43:39] The ten commandments; the moral load of sin[01:49:25] Understanding hell[01:55:22] More on Word on Fire[01:58:04] The Exodus lectures#Christianity #Evolution #Meaning #God #Faith

Welcome to the JBP Podcast season 4 episode 69. I'm Michaela Peterson. There's this new book titled Jordan Peterson, God and Christianity, The Search for a Meaningful Life. The authors are today's guests Christopher Cazer and Matthew R. Petrusak. And their book is the first systematic analysis of 12 rules for life and dad's biblical series from a Christian perspective. In this episode, you'll hear a lot about meaning and suffering, truth and fiction, time before consciousness, evolution, religion, acting ethically, and hell. Dr. Kaser is a professor of philosophy at Loyola Mariment University and, like our other guests, Dr. Petrazek, he's a fellow at the Word on Fire Institute. Dr. Kaser has won a Templeton grant. He's written

many scholarly articles and books. He's a Fulbright scholar who holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame. Dr. Matthew R. Petrazek is an associate professor at Loyola Mariment University in ILA who holds a master's from Yale and a PhD from the University of Chicago. Even though Dr. Petrosack specializes in Christian ethics and moral theology, he gives lectures on a range of interesting topics related to philosophy, theology, and the Catholic intellectual tradition. I hope you enjoy today's episode. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hello, everyone.

I'm pleased to have with me today, Dr. Christopher Cazer and Dr. Matthew Patrusek. They're both working at Loyola Marymount University, and they recently co-authored a book called Jordan Peterson God in Christianity, the search for a meaningful life, which is definitely a title that I would never have imagined existing. So I decided to talk to them today to see what sort of useful discussion we might have about that book, but about Christian issues, more broadly, religious issues, more broadly, cultural issues. Dr. Kesar is professor of philosophy and a fellow of the Word on Fire Institute,

which we'll discuss a little later. He graduated from the honors program of Boston College and earned his PhD four years later from the University of Notre Dame. He was a full bright scholar who did postdoctoral work as an Alexander von Humboldt German Chancellor Fellow at the University of Kallon. He was appointed a corresponding member of the Pontifical Academy for life of Vatican City and William E. Simon visiting fellow in the James Madison program at Princeton University. The winner of a Templeton grant, Templeton funds research into the intersection between religion and science,

among other things. He's written more than 100 scholarly articles and book chapters, and is also the author of 16 books, including the one that I mentioned earlier. Dr. Patrusek received his MA in religious ethics from Yale and a PhD in the same field from the University of Chicago. He is currently associate professor of theological ethics and serves as a word on fire institute fellow as well. In addition to numerous articles, he has authored co-authored and co-edited several books. He's bilingual, English, Spanish, and lectures broadly on topics in ethics, the Catholic intellectual tradition, and the intersection between Christian theology and philosophy. So welcome gentlemen, thank you very much for agreeing to speak with me today,

and for your careful work as well. So I guess I'd like to start by asking you, as I mentioned in the intro, I never had really envisioned being included in a book like the one that you just wrote. And I have noted that a variety of religious thinkers have commented on my lectures and work, and I'm wondering why you felt compelled to put all the time and effort into this. I mean, it's a major undertaking to write a book, and so why this book, what's the motivation? And why followed closely your lectures on Genesis, and when I was listening to them, I was really fascinated because, again and again, I saw themes that I had read earlier in the Church Fathers, people like Gustin, Chrysostom, Origin, and you were reading Scripture, according to what's called the moral

reading of Scripture, where you're looking at the story of say, Cain and Abel. And your primary question isn't, was there actually two brothers, someone named Cain and someone named Abel? You're not so much looking for the historical facts, you might say, in terms of Cain and Abel. But rather, you're looking at that story in terms of what universal lessons the story has for us today. And that moral reading of Scripture

is something that is very, very common in the Christian tradition of biblical reading. And so I thought that was super interesting. And then I also thought it was interesting how you were bringing to bear all kinds of other resources when looking at these stories. So you would bring in evolutionary psychology, you'd bring in Russian novels, you'd bring in all these things that would seem to be foreign to the biblical text. But in a way that too was something that was very traditional. In other words, if you look at people like Augustine, he'll say that all truth is from God.

And so bringing in any truth from any field is perfectly legitimate in his view in terms of trying to understand Scripture, because he thinks that God is the ultimate author of two books, the book of Revelation, Scripture, but also the book of creation. So everything in creation can help inform our understanding of Scripture, and Scripture can help inform our understanding of creation. So these lectures, I really enjoyed them, and it seemed to me that what you were doing in a certain way was re-invital, representing again in a new and fresh way the insights that were found in these older thinkers.

And the fact that so many young people, especially young people who call themselves atheists or agnostics or religious, the fact that so many of these people were fascinated by our lectures and drawn to them. And as you know, so many comments on YouTube would say things like, I thought the Bible was a kind of stupid old collection of naive stories, totally meaningless for contemporary life. But after hearing your lectures on Genesis now, I see how these stories have perennial and are extremely important and insightful for navigating life. And so, you know, for me, what I wanted to do in the book is both bring out these resonances

with these earlier figures, but also to try to show how these earlier figures actually, in my view, develop and enhance some of your own insights and move them further down the road as it were. So I thought that it would be useful to bring these reflections together in a book. Yeah, I have the same intellectual reasons as well for engaging your work. Basically, I think we're trying to speak to two audiences at the same time. One is to your massive audience to speak to them through your work, that the ideas that you've been engaging with such verve and such power and such clarity not only resonate with the biblical context, but in fact, this is where, from our point of view, they find their fullest expression.

And so to that audience, we want to see a a little bit deeper, look a little bit broader. We're also speaking though to Christian audiences as well. Let's see, look at the work that Jordan Peterson is doing. Perhaps he doesn't see it this way, but he's a serious theologian. And he's opening pathways and opening modes of communication that can help us more clearly communicate some of these biblical truths as well. I also have a personal reason for it. I began watching you, actually I was a Christian, introduced me to your work, and I began watching your

work online, everything you put out of watch, and what I found so fascinating is from my point of view, you exhibit a lot of the Christian virtue of courage. And people were attracted to that. They were attracted to hearing truths, including very hard truths. And I thought, I wanted to dig deeper to see what this phenomena, what's been called the Jordan Peterson phenomena really is. Yeah, this is a strange thing for me,

there's the popularity of those biblical lectures. I mean, it came as a shock. I joked with some people when I first rented the theater in Toronto to put the lectures on. I thought I said, if I had gone to a bank for a loan and told them that my business plan was to do 15 to our lectures on on Genesis, mostly to young men, and that I was going to charge them to come to a theater and sit through that. They would have laughed me out of there because it's such a preposterous

proposition. And yet it seemed to work And the lectures have been quite popular online. And they've, they seem to have attracted attention from religious and non religious people. But basically in the religious vein, right, even the atheists who've been watching are pulled in by the, by, by what is essentially the religious content. I guess part of the question is, you know, exactly what is that religious content? That's something we could we could talk about in depth. I mean, the fact that my thinking is influenced by these church fathers, the church fathers and other historical figures that you discuss, I guess I get that second hand in some sense, right? And probably primarily through Jung, Carl Jung, he was unbelievably educated, and I saturated myself in his work. And he was, of course, incredibly influenced by the

thinkers that you talk about in the book. And so, and you mentioned Dr. Ksor that, you know, I was putting old ideas into a new package and, you know, that it's very important to to to note that that's true is that, you know, truly original light, truly original ideas are very rare. And so much of what we think of as original is it's built into the structure of our culture in ways we don't understand and then manifests itself within us. And that's certainly the case with these biblical stories. And I wanted to make another comment to about truth.

You know, Dr. Kaser, you mentioned that I engage in a moral reading of scripture, rather than a literalist reading. And maybe we should have a talk about that because it isn't easy to read a book like the Bible literally because it's full of literal contradictions. And whatever it is, especially the really archaic stories in in Genesis, whatever it is, it's not it's not history the way we think of history. And so that's hard for people, it's hard

for people to see how that might still be true. If it's not literal, how can it be true? And this is a discussion that I tried to have with Sam Harris a lot, because the atheist types, the rationalist types, there's something they miss and what they miss is that fiction isn't false. It's not a lie, right? It's not literal, but it's not a lie. And great fiction is true, but it never happened. So how can it be true? And the answer to that is something like,

well, there are patterns in things, deep patterns, deep recurring patterns, you know, human nature, the fact that we're human, that the humanity itself is a recurring pattern. It has characteristic shape, and great fiction describes the shape of that pattern. And the greatest of fiction, the greater fiction becomes the more it is religious in nature. And that's not even a claim about the nature of truth. It's more a claim about the nature of experience. You know, when we say something is profound, what we mean is that it's moving and that it has a

broad influence. It's capable of having a broad influence on the way we think and see it act. So if you read a profound book, like one of Dostoevsky's books, you could say of that book and people often do that it changed my life when I read that book. And a story that can change your life has a power that is best described as religious. And so religious is a kind of experience in some sense, rather, in addition to a claim about what constitutes truth. And then those stories in Genesis can enable, I think, and the story of Adam and Eve,

because those stories are so deep that it's almost unfathomable. They get at the most profound of patterns. And so to say that they're literally true is actually to massively underestimate how true they are. Because you could tell me what you did this morning. Now it'd be literally true, but like who cares? Whereas if you read the story of Adam and Eve, it's so true that it applies to everyone always.

And mere literal truth can't do that. And we don't have a good language, as scientists, let's say, as psychologists, or even as citizens, we don't have a good language for that kind of truth. And so, well, I guess I'd like your thoughts about that idea. Yeah, so the literal sense of Scripture is sometimes misunderstood by people. And I think the the right way to think of it, the literal sense of scripture is what the original human author intended to convey to the original human audience. And so if we're looking at Genesis, I think that we need to put Genesis back in its context. If you read Genesis as if it is a contemporary textbook on science,

I think what you're doing is wrenching it out of its original context and therefore your bound to misread it. And that's true of not just Genesis, it's really true of any work that to understand it, we need to understand it's genre and we need to understand its context. So what is the original context of the Genesis story? Well, the original context,

it was written in terms of rival stories of creation, other stories that were circulating in the ancient world and it was meant to be an answer to those. And it uses poetry, it uses imagery, and that was what all those stories did. And the poetry in the imagery, I would not set that against truth, as if on the one hand you have truth, and the other hand you have poetry, imagery, and story. I think that one kind of truth is scientific truth, the empirically verifiable, but I think it's too narrow to say, well, the only kind of truth is the empirically verifiable. I think truth actually is broader.

And in fact, that claim that the only, that the truth is empirically verifiable, that's the only kind of truth. That is itself a self-defeating statement, right? There's no empirical evidence that, that the only way to get the truth is through the empirical method. So if we put Genesis back in its context, what do we see? Well, we see it as a story telling us about,

in contrast to the other stories, the other stories in the ancient world were stories in which there were multiple gods. They engaged in a warfare and violence. So you think of the Greek myths or like this, where right Zeus overthrows his father and there's warfare and violence. So you think of the Greek myths or like this where right Zeus overthrows his father and there's all this violence. And Genesis is meant to answer these other ancient myths

and it's saying things like there's only one God. There's not multiple. Secondly, that creation is not a matter of violence, but that the creation is reasonable speech. And this was something that you talked about in your lecture, which really struck me because I obviously had read that story before, but I never really thought of it that,

well, creation arise. Right? God says, there'll be light, and there was light. And what is reasonable speech? The reasonable speech is orderly. Right? The difference between, you know, random sounds make and reasonable speeches, that there's a kind of order to it. So if creation arises from reasonable speech

and the creation itself is ordered, it's intelligible, it makes sense. And that gives rise to centuries and centuries later. That belief that creation is orderly and makes sense, gives rise centuries later to science. But to read Genesis, as if it's failed science, makes it by as much chances to read Genesis as if it's four or against iPhones.

I mean, imagine somebody reading Genesis and they're like, well, is this should I buy an iPhone or not, I'm not gonna read Genesis to determine this. Well, clearly, the original author of Genesis wasn't addressing that. And the original author of Genesis wasn't addressing four or against evolution. So I think that these readers who want to make it four

or against evolution are just utterly misreading and taking the story out of its original context and therefore necessarily providing a really bad reading of Genesis. There's also a really important theological point to make here as well. And that's, I could put it philosophically, what's the condition for the possibility of something being

literal in the first place? What's the condition for the possibility both of it being recognized, spoken, and then apprehended? There's a certain court of orderliness that's necessarily pre-supposed in the act of knowing and in the act of communicating that knowledge that itself, as Chris said, can't be empirically verified. So when we as Catholics say that that recognize from the New Testament that Jesus is the truth, that would include in a literal historical sense, but also the condition for the possibility of anything being intelligible and literally understood and communicated at all. So I think one of the frustrations I found

in finding contemporary debates on these questions is that secularism often times isolates and identifies the literal, the empirical, as if this is a free-standing epistemic platform that belongs to them and everybody has to compete in order to be on their territory. And I just don't think that's philosophically the case. It presupposes a lot of things that they can't give an account for. Yeah, I mean, so, so, one more little, yeah, please go ahead. No, I just was just gonna add one thing.

So imagine somebody was reading Shakespeare's son at 18, right, shall I compare the two of Summers day, they'll art more lovely and more temperate. Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May and Summers lease hath all to short of date. So imagine somebody reads that and they're like, okay, Shakespeare's a meteorologist, he's a weatherman and I'm gonna look up in the Almanac to see if May had rough winds.

And that turns out there's no rough winds in May. Oh, Shakespeare, you're about it, you know, telling us about the weather. Well, I think that's a, obviously, radically radical misunderstanding of Shakespeare. He's not trying to tell us the weather and then failing to tell us the weather. And so I think Genesis is not trying and failing

to give us scientific truths. It's just doing something totally different. And that's part of the reason I appreciate your lectures is that you highlighted the reality that the author of Genesis is trying not to, is trying to communicate very important truths, but not truths that are in the scientific discourse. They're true, but not scientific truths. The problem with the empirical approach, the problem with totalizing it is that the empirical approach tends to be mostly descriptions of things and the way they interact and the way they can be manipulated. And that's fine, but doesn't tell you,

doesn't provide any real insight into how to live, how to act, how to take your next step, how to produce a hierarchy of values, and how to determine what's most important and what's least important. And all of that is also so difficult that we actually don't know how to do it completely explicitly, which is why we need poetry and drama and literature.

We need that whole domain, so we could call that the literary domain. And then I think you could consider it. This might be an empirical proposition, is that the religious domain is at the base of the literary domain, and as literature gets deeper, it becomes more and more like religious writing. And so by definition, in some sense, and I've swiped this in part, I would say, from young is almost by definition, that the sense of profound engagement that the most profound literature produces is what constitutes the religious. And that's a domain of experience. You know, when you're captivated in a movie theater, when you're captivated by a story, when you're taken outside yourself,

none of that has anything to do with logical argumentation. It's a whole different issue, and to me, it's tied very, very deeply to our ability to imitate and mimic. And so we're really good at that, way better than any other animal. We met like languages mimicry. We use the same words. And so we're mimicking each other. But I can't mimic every person separately. I have to extract out from each person some essence of being that's admirable. And I do that person after person, and I try to imitate that.

And then that core thing that's admirable that I imitate, that's as far as I'm concerned, that's psychologically equivalent to Christ. Whatever else Christ is, Christ is, that's why he's sometimes described as the King of kings. It's like if the king is the thing that's at the top of the hierarchy, and then you look at all hierarchies, and you take the thing that's at the top of all hierarchies of value, then that figure, when you see reflections of that figure anywhere, it produces awe and respect. And that's because that pattern constitutes the appropriate way to act, just as when you see the opposite of that pattern,

which might be in its most fundamental essence, satanic or demonic, it's something that's ultimately evil, that produces revulsion and terror and that's all instinctual. It's not in the domain of rationality precisely. It's way, way deeper than that. And then there's another problem that the atheists have never come to terms with. I believe, and you guys tell me what you think of this, is that if I believe, and you guys tell me what you think of this, is that if what is properly rendered unto God is rendered unto Caesar, then Caesar becomes inflated to God. And when that happens, all hell breaks loose. all hell breaks loose. That's the genesis of totalitarianism. That's subservience to an idol. And so, and this is a case, I think the church needs to make, particularly the Catholic church, in the most strenuous of ways, is that if we don't segregate off the religious instinct and give it its proper attention and do, which I suppose you do in part with ritual and church

attendants and so forth, then every single thing we do starts to become inappropriately contaminated with religious longing. And that's why you see the rise of extremely powerful political ideologies and the division of people, you know, for trivial reasons into moral camps. It's that religious instinct isn't, hasn't got a grounding in it. It's searching for something to attach itself to. And it picks up second-rate substitutes. You know, the people like Dawkins, they seem to think that if we all just abandoned our religious superstitions, we'd all become, you know, rationalists like, well, like, like Isaac Dutin, who was an alchemist and not a rationalist, by the way, that great genius.

And so, one of the things I think that the Catholic Church in particular isn't doing a very good job of his warning people how dangerous it is to lose the proper theater of expression for our religious instincts. They don't go away. They just get perverted and they show up all sorts of places they shouldn't. That's terrible. That's not good. So I'm always relieved to get back from a trip without any issues, especially health issues, which as you might imagine, I can't help but worry about given that I have a toddler and a long medical record of my own.

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Yeah, that theme is one that Augustine talks about in the city of God. He talks about two loves. He talks about the love of God and it creates a certain city, a certain organization. And if you don't love God, if God is not your ultimate love, well, you're gonna love something. So it could be power, it could be pleasure, it could be money, it could be status. But Augustine thought that if you love, say, power, the most, well, what that's going to do is it's going to shape you and ultimately distort not only you, but also your relationships in your society. So the Christian view is that ultimately God is perfect truth, love and beauty. And so

not only is it the case that worshiping anything other than that is going to fail to give God what's due to God and that's what religion in the sense is about. It's a binding of oneself to God, giving to God what's due. But also it ends up making the person ultimately unhappy. So you can't think about this, even from a psychological perspective, that people like Martin Selegman would say things like, love is at the core of human flourishing. And if we don't have that, if I love money or power more than I love God

and more than I love my friends and more than I love my family, well, that's going to deprive me of the source of my flourishing. I'm going to end up harming myself and, characteristically, also harming others when I love power or money or whatever too much. And so, yeah, for Guston, at least, this is a perennial temptation to replace God with

something else. That's perhaps the warning at the end of Genesis with the story of Noah and also the story of the Tower of Babel. You know, because the Tower of Babel is people get together and they try to build an edifice that's absolute in some sense, right? It's a building that's under the controls and edifice that's of human manufacture and it becomes larger and larger and larger, and then it devolves into a kind of chaos. And so with the flood story, with knowing the flood, that's one form of danger that emerges

as a consequence of deviation from the proper path, let's say, orientation towards whatever the highest good is. And the Tower of Babel is the secondary one that has more to do with the danger of ego-tistical human construction. And it is something like the worship of these idols. So imagine, we can think about this technically and psychologically, in some sense, is that in order to act, you have to presume that that to which you're moving is more important

than where you are, right? So you make a value judgment. Moving in this direction is appropriate. And then you have to move in a lot of directions over the course of your life. And, and, you know, maybe you search for friendship and you search for love and you search for money and you search for power and so forth. And if there's nothing integrating all that, then you're pulled in all sorts of directions, right? It's like devil's pulling you apart, because you don't know what's more important than what, and that's very, very confusing and off-putting. And if the wrong thing takes control, then you get demented and bent. And so what you see in

Christianity is this struggle over thousands of years to specify the thing that should be at the top of the hierarchy. And one of the things that really opened my eyes to the depth of these works was this strange proclamation that the word that existed at the beginning of the time, that brought creation into being was the same as Christ, which is an unbelievably bizarre proposition. I mean, I'm not speaking about precisely religiously, I'm thinking about it more conceptually. It's like the people who had that revelation or intuition are making the presupposition that there's something about the emergence of reality into conscious being, because reality without consciousness doesn't really seem to exist, right? So when we talk about reality,

we always presuppose a conscious viewer, and that the conscious viewer that makes order out of chaos makes order out of chaos is most appropriately the perfect being that's manifested in the figure of Christ. And so that we participate in that process in some sense to the degree that we're attempting to embody that mode of being. So I know that's going out there in some sense, but it struck me as such a brilliant idea that it was hard to account for. I don't know if I've made myself clearer with that. Well, I think it cuts in many different ways at the same time, but it also cuts directly to the previous question that you asked about the right domain of religious expression.

And in a sense, it solves that problem. Why? Well, if Jesus Christ is the logos, on the one hand, that means that there is a logos. There is a truth. There is a way of existence that is real, which gives us a standard to be able to identify false ways of being both individually but also important politically. So it establishes a ground work for there to be an intrinsic limiting principle politically speaking and morally speaking to life, and that is there is a truth of the matter. And if you're not living according to the truth, you're deviating from it. So that establishes a kind of ground and ceiling for the proper expression of what it means to live morally, individually, and also political power as well. You only have right political power in so far

as it conforms to the truth. But the logos is also Christ. That means Christ is also the person, the historical person that, as Catholics, we believe is literally real and literally raised from the dead. And that shows that the political life is not the sumptotality of life. The moral life isn't even the sumptotality of life.

The sumptotally of life is love in relationship with God who has made himself incarnate. So on the one hand, you have the foundation of truth to structure and limit human life and then its ultimate transcendent tail loss or purpose. Dr. Kesar, you got some comments about that. I did. I wanted to circle back to,

you said if I heard you correctly, that reality doesn't exist without consciousness. And I think that's true if God exists, but then if God doesn't exist, then it's not true. So human beings, of course, haven't been on planet Earth since the beginning of the universe. The universe is about 13.8 billion years old. So say 12 billion years ago,

there are no human beings at all. And presumably there was no consciousness at all. So there was reality, there were the beginning of stars and things like that. But there was no conscious beings anywhere that were able to understand that, unless God exists. Now, if God exists, and if it's true that God is the logos, well, then you would say, from all eternity, there was consciousness, there was a mind,

there was a divine mind. And so, and on that view, there actually would be an ultimate unity, you might say, in terms of the divine essence, in the divine mind, ultimately being one. So, consciousness and existence have this fundamental ground in God. But if God doesn't exist, then I think what you said would not be true. Because again, 12 billion years ago, there's no human beings around.

Presumably, unless there are aliens, there's no one around to be conscious. And so there would have been reality, say 12 billion years ago, but there would have been consciousness. Yeah, so I wanna go out on a limb here too, because I have a problem with that. I can't shake this supposition that our scientific cosmological theories have an implicit conscious observer nested

inside of them even when they claim not to. So, for example, when you talk about 13 billion years ago, there's, I don't know how to say this properly. The concept of 13 billion years seems to me to require a conscious observer to formulate, to begin with, because I don't understand what duration consists of, in the absence of something experiencing duration. It's like, how does something last 13 billion years? Like, in some sense, it all happens at once if there's no conscious observer. Like, there's, I, I,'m, well, it would depend, it would depend right on the nature of time. So the view you're talking about was actually put forward

by a guy named Barclay and he said, to be, is to be perceived. So in other words, if you don't have a perceiver, there just wouldn't be any being at all. But I don't think that that is, that's right. I mean, I think you're right, that the idea or the concept, the human concept of time, obviously that can't exist without human beings.

But before there were any human beings, it seems that all available scientific evidence suggests that there were things. There were carbon molecules and there were stars and there was all kinds of things that existed before there was any conscious human perceiving them. So it is true, of course, that all of our evidence for the big bang and all of our scientific investigations presuppose conscious observers that are, you know, taking the measurements and things like that. But I'm not sure it follows from that logically that therefore we can't with good reason hold that things existed before there any human or for that matter, any kind of conscious observers.

Unless we think Berkeley's right that to be is to be perceived. Well, but I think that's stupid of us. There's something in Berkeley's objection that seems to me to be hard to skate around. When we imagine time before consciousness, and we imagine the existence of objects before consciousness, we imagine them as if a conscious observer was there, even though there wasn't one. We see a star from a particular level of resolution. We can't see subatomic particles.

We can't see atomic structures. We can't see molecular structures. That which exists before there's a perceiver is all those levels simultaneously at once with a duration that doesn't, with a temporal sequence that doesn't involve duration. And so, whatever was there before there was a perceiver is in some sense unimaginable without the projection of a perceiver back into time. And I think that warps our perspective on what it was that's there and perhaps our perspective on the role of consciousness in the genesis of being.

So anyways, that's it. Those are. Here's another way of thinking about it, and I don't know what your view would be. So let's say God forbid, there's some sort of plague that strikes humanity and all human beings die. On my view, there would still be lots of things that continue to exist. The sun would still exist, the earth would still exist. There'd still be lots of things that continue to exist. Like the sun would

still exist, the earth would still exist, there'd be all kinds of things that exist. Now there'd be no human beings in that terrible scenario that were there to perceive it, but they would still continue to exist, or maybe you have a different view. I just so imagine that consciousness was eradicated, say, not just human beings, just to make it cleaner, in some sense. I can't understand how to conceptualize what it is that would be left. Is it nothing but quantum potential?

Is it the sea of quantum potential? Is it not turned into stars and solar systems and galaxies when there's an observer specifying a level of analysis? It isn't obvious to me from looking at the physics what it is that's there. See, because you say, well, there'd still be a sun. It's like, well, wait a second. When you think of the sun, you think of what you perceive, and when you say it would still be there, you think that what you perceive would still be there, but you're not there. So what you perceive would not be there. I don't know what it is that would be there.

You could say it's as if the sun is still there, but the level of analysis problem and the fact of the strange constituent reality of matter at the quantum level makes it very difficult for me to conceive of a universe that's just the same as it is now except there's no conscious observer. It doesn't make sense to me. It may briefly, it seems to me that there's perhaps some equivocation and the use of the word existence here. Because existence is, of course, tied up with duration understood from our own perception of it,

but that doesn't necessarily mean that duration is either a necessary condition for existence or the most important condition. So we can think of existence in terms of other potential qualities that it has unity following a kind of pattern. And in that sense, it seems to me the more important question isn't what would existence be like if there were no observers, but would there be existence? And I think it's logically possible, metaphysically, perhaps even necessary

to say that there would be existence, but that doesn't mean that we would be able to describe it. Yeah, so I think I'm going to disagree with you now. I'm not sure there would be, if there was no, if there were no perceivers at all, including God, then I don't think there could be other existing things. Well, I would say human person. Oh, so so many. Yeah, because if if a coin is right, there couldn't be anything at all, right, right, right. Yeah, because if because if a coin is as right, there there couldn't be anything at all right in existence if God It wasn't the ultimate first cause of all these things and so if God didn't exist at all that would mean that there There couldn't be anything else if he's right about this whole argument. I mean, I think he is right. So So there is ultimately a So there is ultimately a mind perceiving all created reality, the divine mind, but I don't think there needs to be human minds or for that matter, if we talk about angels, I don't

think there need to be angelic minds for there to be existing things. Yeah, well, I guess I'm stuck on this for reasons that I think are somewhat scientific in their nature, my inability to conceptualize what it is that would be if there is no point of reference because everything is all things at once in some sense without a limited observer. And so I don't know what it is for there to be something when everything is everything at once, with there's no differentiation as a consequence of a limited observer. So, but we can leave that part of the argument. I'm pushing this at least in some part because I have also seen, I would say, on the part of the more dedicated modern atheists, this necessity to devalue consciousness, because consciousness seems to be, it's a mystery, let's put it that way,

and it's an unexplained mystery, and it's given such pronounced status in the biblical writings. It's part of what gives human beings dignity is the fact that we share this logos consciousness that's integrally tied up with the structure of reality as such. And well, I'll just leave it at that. That's enough exploration of that as far as I'm concerned. London is one of the coolest places on the planet. Did you know they have wild foxes downtown? Pretty big change from the raccoons in Canada I'm also someone who likes learning a lot as you might imagine and it goes without saying

There's a lot of really interesting history in London There are almost too many angles to explore I'm telling you this because I saw a really cool one-dream course called Notorious London, which explores the dark side of London, with its Victorian intrigue and cobblestones and crime. Because there's quite a history of London crime too. Who could forget Jack the Ripper? Or the singing barber, Swini Todd? Actually, with Swini Todd even real, that's how deep London crime goes. We don't know. Of course, OneDream, formerly known as the Great Courses Plus, which I've talked about before, isn't just devoted to London.

There's a really unique course called, in the footsteps of Vincent Van Gogh, for example. There's one about the Beatles, one for quilting, one for playing the ukulele. You can check all these out on OneDream.com or on the OneDream app, which lets you download the audio and listen to it like a podcast. With Wondrium, you can pick the time and learn more about London or art or tiny musical instruments on the go. And I have an amazing offer to get you started, of course, a free trial with unlimited access.

Sign up now at Wondream.com slash Peterson. That's W-O-N-D-R-I-U-M dot com slash Peterson for a free unlimited access trial. One of the another thing that we might talk about briefly is that there's also a tendency in the modern culture as we move away from our religious heritage, as fewer people go to church, let's say, and are even familiar with the traditional church writings, to swallow this story that science and religion have been at odds with one another throughout the course of history. And Dr. Petrasek, you made a case earlier in this discussion, I believe it was you, that the proposition that the world was ordered by something that was akin to a comprehensible intelligence or an intelligence or a consciousness that we could have a relationship with was the

deep felt sense that we could understand things if we investigated them. And that's means that the religious proposition of an orderly, comprehensive world amenable to the investigations of consciousness was actually a precondition for the dawn of science. And that's what Nietzsche claimed. Nietzsche claimed that Christianity died at its own hands by emphasizing the, what would you say, the primary importance of truth. And so,

the exploration of truth, at least in part, developed into the empirical domain, and then the scientific worldview produced representations of being that seemed to contradict the traditional representations. And because our minds had been trained to value truth to such a great degree, at least in part as a consequence of our religious education, we were forced biological consistency, in some sense, to experience this existential crisis that the apparent opposition between the empirical and the religious has put us into. So that's a different reading of the relationship between science and religion. It means it's a problem we have to solve instead of a battle between two

opponents, one of whom has to win and the other whom has to lose. Yeah, well, that completely contradicts certainly the Catholic understanding of the relationship between science and religion. There's a historical question here, which is how did science emerge into its current form? And even on those grounds, it's inaccurate to say that Christianity and specifically Catholicism has ever been opposed to science. The historical record just doesn't show that. Then there's a conceptual and philosophical question

of, again, using the philosophical language, what's the condition for the possibility of there being a empirical investigation insofar as it's cognitively and epistomically possible, and then the motivational question of why in the world would you carry it out unless you have the belief either explicitly or implicitly that the world both is

knowable and that that knowledge is somehow real. That presupposes not only any generic metaphysics, but I would say a specifically Christian metaphysics in particular. So it's a meme, I would say, that science and religion are somehow opposed, but it's a false one. The idea that science and religion are opposed rose really in the 19th century. There was a guy named Draper, and he wrote a book that basically put forward this thesis. And before that, the thesis wasn't held,

and there's no real good historical grounds for holding that. So if you look at many of the prominent scientists in the history of science, many of them were faithful believing people. I mean Newton was a faithful Protestant. You have people like Descartes, Catholic, you have a blaze pass, Gallagher, a great mathematician, you have Gregor, Mendel, you have George Lemaître in the 20th century, who was one of the founders of Big Bang Cosmology. So all the way from the beginning of science to today, you have prominent people of faith that are scientists. Even right now, I think the head of the national institute for health, I think Francis, I forget his name,

but anyway, he's a prominent believer. And the church, as an an institution also supported science. So the cathedrals were designed in the 17th century to serve also as solar observatories. Catholic universities all around the world have departments of science and promote scientific investigation for their students. The Pope has a pontifical academy for science, invite scientists from all over the

world, scientists of all different faiths and no faith to come to the Vatican for these scientific meetings. So I think it's really quite unfair to say the church is opposed to science. So faith and science are obviously not the same thing. There's people that are great at science that don't have faith. There are people that are great at science that don't have faith. There are people that are great at faith and don't know much about science, but there are people that are kind of overlapping.

And so I think it is really, yeah, a myth, to think that the church is opposed to science. Yeah, I just have very, very briefly. It's not a biographical peculiarity that these great people of science, or Catholics, they didn't practice their scientific craft in addition to believing in God and practicing Catholicism. They did it precisely as Catholic, working from the framework of faith and reason there. And that's always been the case. So, Nis, let's delve into this faith issue a bit too. Because the faith is a

very complicated term, and you know, it's often parodied by the rationalists, you know, to have faith in God is parodied as a primitive and superstitious belief. But my psychological investigations convinced me that there's no action without faith. Because we're always stepping into the unknown, we have to take a leap of faith to exist, to do the simplest of things, literally to move. And that has to do with what I said earlier, is that we're trying to move from a place of less value to a place of more value. So we have to make some assumptions about what constitutes value. And then we have to believe that our actions are going to have the outcome that we desire. And we do that without evidence. I mean, that's partly why to be human is to be

driven with anxiety. It's because there's no certainty. And so you can't act without faith. And so then the question might, if you accept that proposition, you can't act without faith. And I actually believe, I don't believe that that's a disputable proposition, unless you view people as deterministic in the way that clocks are, you know, so that we're just stimulus response machines. It seems to me that instead we're moving into the unknown and we do that in dread in some sense, dread and hope and we do that because we have. And when we lose that faith, our lives fall apart. And we don't know which way is up or down.

And so then the question is, well, if we have to have faith, what is it that we should have faith in? And then the answer seems to be something like, well, we should have, if we have to make a decision about that, maybe we try to have faith in what, in the idea that the best should be pursued and will prevail. As an organizing principle, and then the question is, well, what is the best? And the answer is, well, that's really hard question. And so we need cathedrals and we need box music and we need the stories in Genesis and we need the world's great literature. And we need all of that theater and drama and art and aesthetics to help us understand what the best is and to determine how it should prevail.

And I don't see that technically as any different from, I think it is the same thing psychologically as the worship of Christ. I think it's the same thing. Because, again, I'm trying to speak psychologically to think about what Christ represents. I'm not thinking about him as a historical figure. That's something we can get to later. That image, which is seen, for example, that image, which is seen, for example, laid out on these massive cathedral domes Christ as logos as generator of the world. It's the idea that the proper mode of being

is brought into existence by consciousness that's operating according to the highest possible principles. And like, why wouldn't, and that is the kind of faith that's maybe got some courage associated with it, right? I'm going to act as if this is the case. We're all going to act as if this is the case. Now, that begs the question, does that make it real? Well, that's a harder question. Yeah, I see an answer. I thought about God as that, then which nothing greater

can be conceived. So he thought of God as the highest perfect good. And a quite as to thought of God in a similar way as absolute perfection. And I would say that this kind of faith though can be reasonable. It's not, in my view at least, kind of blind shot in the dark that you're just wandering around and you just kind of make things up. I think there's actually good philosophical reasons to think that there does have to be a first cause. There does have to be a necessary being. And Aquinas puts forward these arguments and people have, I myself have talked about these things to my students and online. There is not just a shot in the dark as it were.

So, but I think you're right, that people do need faith in some sense, just to live, just to move forward. But I do think that you might say, specifically, theistic faith is something that's very reasonable. You think of people like William Lane Craig, who has devoted a considerable amount of his time to exploring the Kalam Cosmological argument. And I don't know if you're familiar with that argument,

but it's quite simple. It just says that, oh, you're not. So it says that whatever begins to exist has a cause. That's the major premise. And then the minor premise is the universe began to exist. And therefore, the universe has a cause. And by universe, what's met in the argument is all time, all space, and all matter. And so if the universe has a cause that's prior to time, it must be something that is timeless, or you might say eternal.

If the cause of the universe is the cause of all matter, it must be prior to matter. It must be immaterial. If the cause of the universe is the cause of all matter. It must be prior to matter. It must be immaterial. If the cause of the universe brought the whole universe into existence, obviously the cause of the universe has to be immensely powerful. And so you have, say in the cosmological argument,

the column cosmological argument, an argument, a reason to believe that God exists. And we can talk about whether that argument works, but you also have other arguments like the fine-tuning argument. And I read online that you were looking at the God hypothesis. And as you know, for reading that book, there is a lot of very solid evidence that the universe is fine-tuned. And then if you're going to explain that fine-tuning in terms of chance,

the likelihood of that is unbelievably unlikely. It would be like, if I won the lottery every single day of my whole life, it's much more unlikely that the universe could have been brought about by chance and still been able to have life in it. So I'd think that to believe in God is very much a reasonable faith. It's not just a random arbitrary, wishful thinking kind of view. Yeah, I would add that I think I'm hearing two different kinds of faith at the same time that ultimately I believe can be, in fact, the teaching of a Catholic Church that they are united. And that's, we call faith one.

Faith one could be defined as as what must be in existence and true in order for there to be anything else in existence and true. And as you were putting it, Jordan, how do we make any kind of decision based upon any kind of evidence, whatsoever, whether it's in terms

of empirical matters, whether it's term immoral matters, there's so many presuppositions that we can't make arguments about, but that must be true in order for us to make arguments about anything. So that's the horizon as it were of faith, and we can't not have faith in that sense. But then as you put it, then it raises the question, what do we have faith in? Well, the Catholic answer to that, the Christian answer to that, in its broadest possible sense, is you have faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the logos, is the totality of who God is,

that horizon of meaning, the horizon of intelligibility, and that whom you can ultimately trust. That's the second meaning of faith, which is not really an epistemic category, presupposes an epistemic category, which is belief, but it's ultimately about trust. Who do you most trust? And the options there are really quite limited. Either you're going to trust something in the world, you're going to trust yourself,

or you're going to trust God. And anything in the world and yourself, you'll be let down. Guaranteed, you'll be let down. Disastrously, in fact. So the third option is you trust Christ. Who, through revelation we see, loves you infinitely. So in that sense, Christ once again solves the problem of faith, both at its beginning and at its end. Okay, so let's delve into that again. So I mentioned it earlier when we were talking that you could conceptualize Christ psychologically as the representation of all things that strike us as admirable.

So here's an example. When I used to watch my kids play house, my son would play the father and my daughter would play the mother, and she would act out being a mother. And you might say, well, she was imitating my wife, but she wasn't, because she wasn't copying her exactly, because my wife would walk across the kitchen in a particular way and pick up a plate and bring it to the table in a particular way. Like, to copy that is to duplicate it exactly with your body, right, which I could do if I was imitating you, something you'd find very annoying. Anyways, what the child does is something quite different. They watch the father across time, and they watch the mother across time, and they extract out those elements of perception and action that can be imitated, that constitute the spirit of the mother and the spirit of the father, and then that's what they manifest in their

play. And so they're doing that at a very, very early age. It's not direct mimicry. It's as if they're working out the story of what it's like to be a father, and they're acting that out. Now, they use their observations of their actual father to fill in that play, space, that imaginative space, but they also

get information from movies and television and all the books they've been read and all of that is feeding their embodiment of the father. And so, and this isn't something that's rational exactly. So let's say the child, as a consequence of this felt sense of admiration, focuses on a particular attribute in a book, watches the hero of the story, and is compelled to incorporate that into their representation. And so they're trying to act out what's admirable and then faith in that sense is, is it willingness to act out the proposition that what we find admirable will in fact be the most appropriate guide to how we should act in the world? Because you have the child acting out the father, but then there would be the set of all fathers and then there would be what was extracted out of that. That would

be the ultimately admirable ideal, which is like God brought to earth. If God is that which no greater can be imagined. And then that's embodied, which is the Christian idea, then what's most admirable is embodied in the figure of Christ, and that's the thing to imitate. And the faith isn't believed that that's real. I don't believe that. The faith is willingness to act out out of the world. That's a different thing, because we make this propositional too much.

I don't think it is. Because the imitation is the imitation of Christ. The essential issue. Not only propositional. Oh, sorry. Sorry, everyone, there's a bit of a lag on our connection. So that's why we're awkwardly interrupting one another. So please go ahead.

I think I would say that it's not only propositional. And in fact, on a final analysis, the propositional components of the faith may be the least important. I would say they're necessary, but certainly not sufficient. But as you're describing your conception of faith, the word that really stuck out for me is that this will happen. That I act according to a belief or do an intuition that if I act according to a certain kind of pattern that I will realize the nature of the pattern itself, I think that's certainly part of it from a Christian perspective. It absolutely is.

It has to be because it's metaphysically the case that God created all things good. And so this pattern is embedded absolutely everywhere in creation, including in the human mind, including in the human soul. However, there's the problem of sin, right? We live in a world that is radically fallen, starting with the broken natures of our own selves. And so the will there is not just, the question is, do I have any reason to believe

that my acting according to this pattern will actually bring about the desired outcome that I hope for. And that's where Jesus Christ moves from being the teacher who not only gives the pattern, but instantiates the pattern to the savior, because the reality is, no, you will, I will not. I will fail. And again, fail disastrously. So it is only because this archetype of moral truth and goodness is actually willing to reach into my

life, into our lives, that that will actually can have any meaning and really command any kind of belief. That's why I believe is because it's not just a pattern that I'm seeking to conform to. It's a person who's reaching out to me. It's both. So if that's the case, then why is it necessary for us to strive to be good? Like what rule does our moral striving play?

Because it's the same reason I would strive to be a good husband. And not only in a generic sense that I have a certain set of criteria that this is what defines being a good husband is. And so therefore I'm going to act to it, sort of duty bound. Say again, duty is necessary, but not sufficient. I act out of love. So I seek to be good because I

love that he who loves me. And again, at that point, duty is it ruins the story. It ruins the relationship. It's I am loved and I wish to love and I recognize I will fail time and time again. I am loved and I wish to love and I recognize I will fail time and time again, but I love because I love he who loves me. And conversely, that's also what leads to my ultimate happiness. So I think one thing that could really complete a lot of the theological reflections in your work more broadly is a conception of grace. A lot of the Christianity I see in terms of its ideas in your work is a Christianity without grace. Now, grace we have to define very carefully, but at the end of the day, a Christianity without grace is not Christianity. One distinction that might help our conversation is the distinction between a living faith and dead faith. So for a living faith, what that is is a faith that is in live and by charity, and it's a

faith in which God's own love sort of works through me. God's love is in me, and I express God's love to others. Now we say, well, why do we need to worry about being good? I mean, if Jesus is doing all the work, then I can just do whatever I want. But part of the answer would be that for me to have a living faith, I have to maintain that connection with God. So it's possible to just as it is with the human relationship,

it's possible to damage a relationship in a kind of minor way, but it's also possible to damage a relationship in a really deadly way so that our friendship is just over in virtue of me punching them in the face or doing something just terrible. And the same thing would be true for God that we have this relationship with God or we can, but it's possible for us to so damage that relationship that we no longer have living faith. The best we could have is dead faith. I believe in a proposition that got exists, and maybe that informs me in certain ways, but basically I don't have a living faith at all.

And so the things I do can't be an expression, ultimately, of my union with God that spills over into loving other people. Because in the Catholic view, Jesus is the ultimate pattern, you might say. But the ultimate pattern becomes part of our lives through us being united with him. So there's different metaphors used in scripture like he's divine and you're the branches and he is the head and you were a part of his body. But other beautiful way of thinking about it, and I just ran across this in a book called Christ Alive

and Me by this Jesuit priest, Father David McConey. And it was a great kind of analogy in it. He said, imagine as if God is a sort of burning furnace. And then you're like the hot iron that's put in this furnace and kind of heated up. Well, the heat in the light from that fire gets into the iron. And then you take it out of the fire and it's still like lit up and it's still super hot because the heat is kind of gotten inside. And so in the

Christian view, we are in this relationship and we want to, as it were, let God inside. And then hopefully God remains in us. We don't kick God out. I mean, God wouldn't leave of his own accord, but we can kick him out through serious, serious wrongdoing. But hopefully that light and that fire makes us more alive and makes us able to give some of that light and that fire to other people who are in need, other people that need God's mercy and they need God's help. So it's not just a teacher, student kind of relationship that Jesus is a little bit like Socrates. I mean, I love Socrates.

I love Aristotle. They are absolutely terrific. But the idea of Jesus is beyond just a good teacher, beyond just a good example, but that the life of Jesus would actually live in you. And so this is called by different names. Sometimes it's called theosis, deification, sanctifying grace. These are all kind of different terms for the same idea. But the basic idea is that the heat and the light of God

becomes part of you. And then hopefully you're able to make the world a better place and be a better husband, be a better father, be a better friend, be a better professor. You can do the things you do in a new way because you have this, this light and this seat within you. I have two more questions if you don't mind. Let's talk about the evolution issue. I mean, it looks to me like the story of creation in Genesis and the story of Adam and Eve is in large part

a description of the role of consciousness in being. I mean, the idea that the beginning itself is associated with the dawn of light. It's like the experience of the day, of the morning sun, it's that things spring into being. And so there's some illusion to consciousness itself there. And then the fall of Adam and Eve seems to involve something like the development of self-consciousness. And so that's one way of conceptualizing creation and the human role in it, and maybe our fallen state to some degree

as well as the corrupting influence of self-consciousness, the terror that it generates, it's difficult to square that account in some sense with theories of evolution. And I'm curious about how of evolution. And I'm curious about how you two manage that. Like you're both, I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but you both accept the broad outlines of modern cosmology and evolutionary theory. And so how do you see the Christian narrative? How do you see it in juxtaposition with that? I mean, that was certainly a problem for Darwin. I mean, it just about drove him out of his mind. So... So, in the Catholic tradition, there is a long history of reading Genesis in a way that sensitive to its context. So, there are some readers like Zain there are some readers like Zene Ambrose, who did hold, for instance,

at the seven days of creation, where seven, 24 hour periods. But most Catholic interpreters, Augustine, Thomas Kuinas, jump all the second Pope Francis, don't interpret it in that sort of way. So I think Genesis is teaching us a very, very important truth,

but it's not teaching us about contemporary science. So I would say it's not for or against evolution, it's just not trying to do contemporary science. So what is it trying to do? Well, it's trying to teach us important truths. And you have in your lectures explored a number of those important truths, but here's another truth that at least I think is quite significant in terms of the Genesis story. If we take the Genesis story as a poetic and imagery filled narrative, one of the points I think is that all human beings, ultimately,

are part of one human family. That is, say, everyone on planet Earth, I should treat as if they are distantly a brother or sister of mine. And if you look at some of the other rival stories of creation, if you look at, for instance, Plato's symposium, he has a story there that is spoken by Aristophanes. And Aristophanes, in that story, says, well, human beings arose from three different sources, some arose from the sun, some arose from the moon, some arose from the earth, and so we all come from these different places.

And on that view, ultimately, other human beings are literally could be from a different planet. And so there's ethical consequences for that. If we really took seriously the idea that all human beings are part of one human family, that is, I think, a revolutionary idea. In centuries and centuries later, that idea was developed into this idea that we still have of human rights.

Right, the idea of human rights is that every single human being regardless of race, religion, age, it doesn't matter, all human beings deserve fundamental respect. In other words, you might say, all human beings are part of one human family, we're all equal in dignity, And so we should be respected. So I think Genesis is teaching us incredibly important truths. Like that truth that we should respect all human beings as part of one human family. But I do think it's a misreading of Genesis to look to Genesis as if it's a science textbook.

to Genesis as if it's a science textbook. Just like we wouldn't look to Genesis, you know, to, again, I mentioned earlier, we wouldn't look to Genesis to find answers about, well, should I buy an iPhone or should I buy an Android phone? Like, Genesis isn't trying to do that. It's not for or against iPhones. It's just not about iPhones. And so Genesis just isn't for or against evolution.

It's just not talking about that kind of thing at all. Yeah, I would just say, I think the root question, the more important question, both morally and metaphysically, with regards to evolution and God and existence, is existence arbitrary or not? Is life accidental or not? Is there any way in which we can identify that the symbols and patterns that we see in the world both empirically, scientifically, and bringing in some of your

thoughts, Jordan Morally, are those ultimately our own creations, our own anxious creations, in order to try and cope with an existence that is neither here nor there And and therefore just as arbitrary as anything else or are they real and I and I know the question of the real is At the one hand the hardest question to answer But on the other hand, it's the most important question to answer. That's the root question for me with regards to evolutionary theory Do I accept the broad contours of it? Yes, St. John Paul II, a previous Pope, in support of the general idea that life can involve. But the root question again is, does God exist and did God create the universe?

How that happened, the mechanism by which that took place, is an incredibly important question for scientific analysis. But it's a secondary question to whether or not God exists and therefore there is meaning-purpose order and structure and existence. So maybe we'll, I definitely want to ask this question. So it's become increasingly difficult for the Catholic church, perhaps in particular,

in the West to attract young people. I don't think that's a statement that anyone would disagree with. But people are watching my biblical lectures and lots of them are young and they came to the lectures. So why is that exactly? What's going on there? I mean, I don't know how to understand it precisely and I can't work it out in my own mind. You're looking at it in some sense from outside. looking at it in some sense from outside, what's the story there? I think part of it's a just sociological cultural question where in the minds of many young

people, perhaps most people, religion is an undifferentiated mess. And what religion means is basically what the technical term would be, feedism, that you believe something that you have no rational reason to believe. And you've just embraced it as a matter of kind of a personal mantra, but otherwise, it's completely irrational. I think in most young people's minds, that's the case. So the general trend we see within Catholicism

is more, the specific trend we see within Catholicism, more just a general trend of people leaving religion. And I think why your work has been so important for those of us who are Catholics is that you are showing that that's not what religion is. Now, we can have very important and timely questions about why the Catholic Church hasn't been doing its duty as it were.

We're part of the Word on Fire Institute, and that's precisely what we're seeking to do, and it's precisely the mission of the Word on Fire Institute. But your work has reestablished that connection for millions of people who have a false idea, one of religion generally, but two of Christianity and Catholicism in particular. Yeah, I think that's right. So part of your lecture, lectures I think are showing a dialogue between faith and reason because obviously you have the scientific background or professor

of psychology and you know about the empirical science and all kinds of things, but you're also taking these questions that faith seriously. So for us, that is really bread and butter part of the Catholic tradition. So there are definitely are some forms of religion, even some forms of Christianity, that we want to pit faith against reason, as if faith and reason are in an MMA fight, and they're, you know, going at it, and they're going to, you know, choke each other out. And well, on our view, that's not true. On our view, God is the ultimate source of both faith and reason. So John Paul II put it in a very beautiful way.

He said that faith and reason are two wings that the human person uses to fly up towards the truth. And so the idea is that there's a kind of harmony. They're different, right? You're left wings, not the same as you're right wing. These are two different things. But they are not set at odds with each other. They're in harmony. So you see this sort of

harmony and figures like Augustine who wants to combine a kind of platonic philosophy with a Christian wisdom, and then you find a different kind of synthesis in someone like Thomas Aquinas who wants to combine an Aristotelian philosophy with a Christian wisdom, and then you find a similar sort of combining in many other figures in the Christian tradition, John Henry Newman, John Paul II, etc. And so I think in a way, one way to interpret your work is as another way of bringing together faith and reason in this in this conversation and this dialogue. And it's certainly part of the work I try to do as a professor of philosophy. I mean some people say, oh, you're a professor of philosophy.

You're supposed to be, you know, how could you be Catholic? And I think that question is nonsensical. If you understand the Catholic view of faith and reason, that faith and reason are not, on our view, you know, opposed. They're working together at their in harmony. And part of the intellectual adventure, I think, is talking about these questions and bringing these two sources into fruitful conversation.

In a very basic sense, faith cannot oppose reason. Because if God is and God is one, then any truth, whatever formulation that truth is taking, it cannot be opposed to itself. This is a fundamental principle and the thought is a St. Thomas Aquinas. And so any statement that would be irrational, we as Catholics would reject,

but faith is supra rational. And when we talked about this earlier in the conversation, right, there's a sense in which there's an invisible but real foundation to reason itself, both logic and empirical observation, and then there's a destination for where it's headed.

So in that sense, faith is never against reason, but it's the condition for the possibility and the purpose of reason. So part of it, you think, is this demonstration of the coexistence and maybe the necessary coexistence or the optimal coexistence of faith and reason. But there's maybe there's another aspect too, a couple other aspects. And maybe this might be a consequence of the empirical revolution in human thought, is that maybe the modern church has concentrated too much on emphasizing the

propositional at the expense of the enacted. And I can see that happening a little bit in our conversation. So I'm trying to find places to stand that are really solid. And the idea that we have an instinct to admire. And that we can extract out the pattern of what's admirable, and that we can then deify that and assume a relationship between that and the ultimate ideal. That seems very solid to be. I don't feel any internal disunity about those propositions. That's different, or about those suppositions, let's say,

that's different than the claim that, you know, there was a God who exists outside of time and space and who created the universe, that that's more like a set of statements that you need to believe whereas the first set is a set of answers to questions that everybody has. You know, and maybe that's, see, I was trained as a behavioral psychologist. I was trained as a cognitive behavioral psychologist, but I concentrated more on the behavioral element, how to help people change the way they act and to make that central. And I try to do that in my lectures is like, well, you know, everybody needs to know how to act. No one disputes that. The audience doesn't dispute that.

And then figuring out how to act is a great mystery. And we all seem to be guided by our conscience. And we can't escape that conscience even though we might like to. And we all seem to have some sense that some things are good and other things are evil. And so what's good, and is that what we should pursue, and how is that represented? And those are all solid questions, and there are solid religious answers to them. But then there are these more abstract propositions that seem to make, that people bounce off them, and young people bounce off them, because they're more like a set of, they're like an insistence

about what you must believe propositiously, rather than answers to questions about how to walk through life, given the questions about life mysteries that you all have in your head. And it's the latter that I'm trying to explore and address in the lectures. You know, and I think that's partly why people are find them acceptable. You know, they don't just bounce off them and say, well, that's religious clap trap. I'm done with that, you know, and reject them

the same way they do, at least to some degree. You know, church attendance and... I'm always, I'm always exploring a mystery with the audience in my lectures, you know, and I'm not telling them what I believe. I don't know, even telling them what I believe to be true because I'm always questioning what I believe. And the reason I keep insisting on this in this conversation

is because it is really is something I'm trying to solve. It's like, what is the, I do believe that we are in danger of making all sorts of things religious that shouldn't be and that that's going to do our culture great damage. And that unless we put God back in God's place and Caesar back in Caesar's place, things are going to be grim. And the church, the classical church, the Catholic church has to play a role in that, but I don't see a tremendous amount of evidence that that's happening among young people. So, I'm not saying that with any sense of glee, obviously. It's a mystery that needs to be solved. obviously. It's a mystery that needs to be solved. And so, yeah, I think you're right that your lectures focus more on the existential and the

practical and how to live this out. And I think that's really important. And in the Catholic Church, at least part of what we do is actually offer young people a chance to do that. So for instance, at every Catholic university, at every Catholic parish, there's all kinds of outreach programs, there's all kinds of ways in which we're trying to live out this Christian message. Because at the end of the day, I think you're right, that living it out is so essential and so important. On the other hand, I think when you're living out something, there is at least implicitly some sort of theoretical view that you're living out. That is to say, if I live out a life of greed, right, at least implicitly, I am saying, as it were,

at least in my actions, that I think that money is the most important thing. And so, in a way, the theory, I think you're absolutely right, just the theory is what I would have called earlier, dead faith. Of course, that doesn't help at all. We need living faith. But I do think that a living faith is not going to live very long unless there is at least some intellectual content to it. And the reason for that is that human beings have minds and they ask questions. And so if people are asking questions, and my students in philosophy class ask questions all the time,

and there's no answer at all, then I think that leaves the practice of faith being kind of unmoored and being kind of shallow. So I think you're 100% right. Like if I could say for my kids, would I rather have them have all kinds of theories and all kinds of abstract ideas and be an expert in theology and philosophy, but

in their real life, they don't worship God, they don't serve people in need, they're a horrible friend, etc. or the reverse. Well, of course, I'd rather have them living a life of charity and the virtues and being a great person, even if their intellectual understanding was sort of thin. But I do think, given that people ask questions and people ask other people questions, I think if there's no intellectual content, what can happen really easily is that it just sort of evaporates, that is to say that you give up going, you give up worship,

you give up service, you give up thinking that people that are different from you deserve fundamental respect, you sort of, the practices end up going away, I think, unless there's at least some intellectual substance there. And then partly it depends on your person, person like who you are. So I'm someone who really loves to read books.

I love to talk about intellectual things. So for me, that's the big part of my life. Now there are other people who are great people who, you know, they don't read books and they don't like talking about issues and fair enough. I mean, not everyone's alike, but I do think there are lots of young people that ask intellectual questions, right?

They ask, well, how do you fit Genesis with evolution? And if you just sit there and go, well, I have no idea, I just believe. Well, you could do that, but at least for us as Catholics, we're not fideous, we don't say, oh, just believe it,, you could do that, but at least for us, it's Catholics, we're not fideous. We don't say, Oh, I just believe it. There's no explanation. We try to provide reasonable explanations of things. But, but I do think I do agree with you at the end of the day, living charity is the most important. And it's something that St. Paul talked about.

Right. If you give your body over to be burned, if you have faith to move mountains, but you don't have love, it's all worthless. And so love at the end of the day is the most important. Yeah, I think the important distinction here is what's necessary and what's most important. They're not always the same thing. So what's necessary in order for Catholicism to become Catholicism? It must have a set, must have dogma. Or else it's not anything whatsoever. So in so far as the Catholic Church has dogma, we have a set of propositions that we believe to many sets of propositions that we believe to be true in every way that something can

be true. Historically, metaphorically, literally, morally, all these things we believe to be true. So that's necessary. But that's necessary for any group. It's necessary for any individual in order to have any kind of unified personality. So in that sense, it's absolutely necessary. Is it the most important?

No, no. But that, again, the most important is that these dogmas, as Chris has been put, it become alive, become alive. As St. Paul also puts it, without love, you are a gong that makes no sound whatsoever. And so if one of the critiques that I've, that has really hit home, that you've also made in previous videos,

is that Catholicism is not calling its people to be heroes. That sticks with me. I think that's right. And we have within our faith what's called the doctrine of the saints, which in a very basic sense just means that we believe that there are people, just like us, who have lived in a way that exhibits what it truly means to be a follower of Jesus Christ. And if you look at the different kinds of saints, what you will find is vastly different kinds of personalities, vastly different kinds of interests, but two things will also be present. One,

courage, and two, fidelity to the truth. Diversity across all other levels, but courage and fidelity to the truth. So I do think that this is a time for courage. And again, that's one of the reasons that I was so attracted to your work because of the pushback that it's received. Pushback's press the most diplomatic word I could say. But and you remain consistent. And I see that that's courage, and that's a model for us as well.

So a couple of comments on that. So well, optimally you want the optimal pattern of action to be part of your personality. And then you want the story of your life to be concordant with that pattern of action. And then you want the propositions abstracted from that story to be concordant with the story. So then you have the intellectual and let's call it the literary and the behavioral, existing in harmony with one another. And I suppose a fully developed religious system would flesh out all three levels.

And you see that in Catholicism. You have the patterns of action, you have the stories, and you have the propositions. So I agree with Dr. Kesar that the dogma is crucial and it's partly too because the rational can undermine faith. You know, and we always think as modern people, we think, well, if faith can be undermined by rationality, then it should be. But as a practicing clinician, I see how devastating that is. So I had a client, for example,

who was an extraordinarily creative person, brilliant person, and fundamentally a good person. But he had a very, very critical rational mind. And it was always digging at his roots. And as long as he was an architect and an artist, and as long as he was engaged in creative activity, he could live. But as soon as he started to think, his thinking killed him. It was so brutal. Everything was up for grabs. Everything was up for grabs.

Everything was questionable. And you should say, well, you don't take anything on faith. It's like, well, try to live like that and see what happens. That doesn't get at the problem that untrammeled, rational mind can be unbelievably destructive in its ability to go down to the depths and undermine and destroy. And so the protective structure that a functioning religious system offers is some protection against that element of untrammeled rationality. And that's also something I think the rationalist atheist types.

They just, maybe they haven't had enough experience with, say, seriously depressed people who've been driven to the depths of despair by a mind that just won't stop uprooting and destroying. And, and, you know, that's not only a personal thing in some sense, because it's easy for you, me, anyone to become possessed by these destructive ideas, and they're very powerful. And once they're part of us, we need an answer to them. And we need an answer to our nihilistic doubts.

And what Catholicism offers, I wouldn't say uniquely, but definitely is the consequence of thousands of years of effort at keeping that terribly destructive destroyer of necessary faith at bay. And that's also a good way to communicate it, I think, to young people. It's like, look, you're going to be plagued by these existential catastrophic existential doubts. What the hell's the point of it anyways? And that's particularly the case when things aren't going well and you're suffering and suffering unjustly. It's like, what are you going to do then? Well, here's

how people have solved that problem, you know? It's possible that we're akin to deity in some sense that there's something transcendently important about consciousness that you play a crucial role in the structure of existence. It's like no one can say that for certain, you know, because what the hell do we know? But it's the best we've been able to manage in terms of what was it Milton? Wasn't didn't Milton write Paradise Lost to justify the way of God, the ways of God to man? It's a hell of an ambition. In some sense, that's what this entire religious endeavor does, the literary endeavor as well.

What's the point of all this? What's the meaning of this? And when you think about that into two propositions, and this, I also saw this in my therapy practice, it's like, well, what's the meaning of life? And I could easily get off on a nihilistic argument with some of my more intelligent clients. They had a rejoinder for every proposition

about why life was valuable. But then if you said to them, don't be so sure that that part of you is your friend. Look what it's doing to you. It's so destructive. And it has all of itself justifying arguments, and they might even be coherent. But look at the consequences, and then contrast that with your own experience. Like, when does that sense of nihilistic despair disappear?

You know, for some people, it's when they're with people they love, they're with friends or family. Some people find it in creative activity some people find it in charity There are various sources of meaning and that's not propositional You see it in your own life, right? You can literally in therapy have people track that it's like well You're dialistically depressed. Let's let's watch your life for a week and see how that ebbs flows with what you're doing. And then see if we can get you participating more in what makes it eb, then what makes it flow. And that's empirical in a sense, right? I'm not asking you to believe something. I'm asking you to watch the structure of your

own reality to see where meaning manifests itself. And then you could say, in some sense, the sum total see where meaning manifests itself, and then you could say, in some sense, the sum total of where meaning manifests itself, that's where God resides. And that relationship with God that you described as the, what would you say, as that has to be maintained by our good behavior. I suppose that's that desire to live in that space of meaning. And then you can propositionalize that. You can say, well, that's associated with love and it's associated with courage.

It's associated with these classical virtues and it's not these things that we've learned to deem as evil. And that's where you, is that, is it reasonable to say that that's where you find God if you're searching? Is that an appropriate way of looking at it? I think so. I met a guy one time who told me he went to a lecture and the lecture was on God's existence

and the guy who was lecturing. And then then after the lecture my friend came up to him and said You know everything you say is a bunch of malarkey. There's no God. It's just your lecture is just meaningless and the guy said Okay, what I want you to do is for the next week I want you to treat everyone that you meet as if they were Jesus in disguise everyone that you meet as if they were Jesus in disguise. And the guy left the lecture and he went home and he gets home and moms, they're doing the dishes and he thought to himself, well, if this were Jesus in disguise during the dishes,

I'd probably go up and help my mom do the dishes. And then dad came home from work and rather than ignore him, he said, hey, dad, how is work? How's everything going? And you know, because if that were really Jesus in disguise, I would do that. And then they're eating dinner together with the family. And there's one hamburger left. And he turns to his brother and says, Hey, why don't you have this? And the guy told me his life was completely transformed by literally one week of acting in this sort

of way. And that's not really surprising. Pope Benedict talked about this in one of his encyclicals that one way to God is to act in this sort of way, to act as if God exists, to act as if other people are Jesus and disguise. And Mother Teresa talked about that too, that for her, the poor and the leper and the destitute were all Jesus in disguise. And so she served them as if they were Jesus.

And so that is one way it seems to me to move towards God. I don't think it's the only way though. And the reason is that I know a philosopher, Alistair McIntyre, who mentioned to us in class one day that he was an atheist until he carefully studied the arguments for God's existence. So there are at least some people, at least one person, Alistair McIntyre, who really did come to God through that way. But I think the more common way is through lived practice, lived action.

You brought up the case of severe depression, and it is the case, of course, that you can make a profoundly coherent arguments for why your life is meaningless and why there is just a vast nullity to all existence. But the question isn't, are they coherent? The question is, are they true? The question is, are the premises right? Because anything can be coherent within false premises. The question is, is it the case that your life is worth nothing? And the answer has to be no. That's a false statement. It's a false apprehension of reality. Oh, look what happens if you act that out. Of course. But even then, you could

say, well, no, I'd be doing a sum if within within the grips of depression, you'd still be thinking that I am acting according to a good given the premises that I have about the meaninglessness of my own life and of all life. So I think the foundation which keeps going back to the same question, the foundation of truth must be there. But then the next thing to say is not that you are wrong about your life being meaningless. It's a false statement, but that you're also loved. You are loved. And I think that's the kind of thing, at least my own experience, that can take you out of the darkness, that your life is not about you and your own thoughts. It's not about you and the systems that you are building.

Ultimately, you are in response to something much greater than you. And that thing that's greater than you is looking at you and calling you out and saying, I love you. So it's not either or. It's not, well, what's true propositional about the nature of existence and it's there is soul, it is that and I'm calling you, which is a universal call for us as Catholics.

This exercise that you described, Dr. Kaser, I believe that when we see other people, except under very extraordinary circumstances, we see an illusion that we project upon them. Mostly, it's a simplifying illusion. We don't see the whole person. Partly, I suppose, because we couldn't tolerate the complete vision.

It would be too much for us. So our doors of perception are three quarters closed and exactly why that is isn't obvious. But I do believe that the more accurately you perceive a person, the more you perceive them in the manner that you described. You see this eternal recurring, conscious, hero striving against the darkness. And when you treat people like that, of course they're what compelled by that. It's a compelling way to be interacted with. Although I don't know what it is, is that maybe it's not obvious how much of that you can

tolerate, which is a very strange thing too. You know, I'm thinking about this. Most of what we perceive is our memory. And sometimes that is stripped away, and we see what's there, but seeing what's there is awe, awe, inspiring. It's gripping, and it instills terror. And I think that's the same as the burning bush. And in some sense, everything is a burning bush. But you're blinded to it. You see what's there. I think when you really love someone, a child, you really see that in a child if you're

a parent, right? You don't see a generic baby, you see that actual person, so that memory that pushes generic baby into your field of vision dissipates and you see what's actually there and that love drives that. I imagine it does that. Love seems to, I got a thought when people fall in love with one another, they see the perfection that could conceivably exist. It's like the curtains of a volusion, pull apart momentarily, and you see the paradisal state that could be there hypothetically if everything was done properly.

And that drives the love. And then maybe if you work across time you can achieve that to some degree. You know, because other people think about themselves as deluded when they're in love. And that's a very cynical way of looking at it. It certainly doesn't apply to the love between a parent and a child. Yeah, I think you're right.

I mean, I know in my own life having children has been such unbelievably enriching experience. And I think about, you know, especially when kids are a little and they're asleep, you go in there and they're just sleeping and you see their little chest moving up and down. There's something painfully beautiful about that. I mean, you just wish it could go on just indefinitely. And for me, that is something, that taught me something about God's love. Right? If God really is God the Father, well, then, you know, we, that's sort of how he looks at us.

And he sees the good, he sees the effort and of course, there's imperfections too. But I don't know. For me, having children is a kind of, I tried to sometimes tell my students, most of whom don't have kids what it's like. And it's very hard to describe. So the best way I came up with was, well, remember when you were a little child, you know, like six. And you thought, oh, boys have cooties, girls have cooties. And the idea of romance or kissing someone is just repulsive. And then, you know, you could imagine trying to explain to a six-year-old look. At some point, you're going to look at someone else and just find this person unbelievably

captivating and you're going to want to kiss them. And you can say the words, but a little kids are like, oh, no way. That's hard to describe. And I think becoming a parent is similar to that in that. Yeah, it seems to me that it is so enriching that and it's given so much at least to my life, including calling out something for me that would have never been elicited, because there's kind of sacrifices that you'll do for a kid that you'll never do for, you know, an adult. So that that's interesting that that ties in with this this idea that you brought forward of treating everybody as if they were manifestation of Christ.

You see that meaningful fragility in your children, and it's beautiful, and maybe if you've been warped and hurt, you get resentful about it and jealous of it, and that can lead to all sorts of terrible things, But to the degree that you're privileged to see that, that calls you to be a better person. And you can think of that, you know, biologically, well, you have these fragile creatures that you're responsible for. Of course, that's gonna call you to a higher mode of action because otherwise they're not going to live, you know, so it's very practical. But

so then, but what you see there is if that if you view someone with love, then it's incumbent upon you to treat them as if they're valuable. And then the more you treat other people as if they're valuable, the better person you are. That just comes along for the ride in some sense. So none of that seems questionable to me. That that seems solid. And so then maybe the more love you view other people with the higher the moral demand that's placed on you. And then I would say too, well then that's another reason why it's so important to be truthful and in some sense to be good because it isn't obvious to me that you can withstand that moral load

if you're compromised by too much sin, it's too much. And that's another thing that we're not very good at teaching young people about. You know, you shouldn't do that. You know, it's like there's a sanctimonious authority that goes along with that that's the wrong tone. It's more like, you know, I don't know how you lay it out properly, but you tell people that you love how to avoid the road to hell and you don't do that because you're shaking your finger at them or because you're a moral authority. You do it because you don't want them to burn. And I think there's too much of the moral authority still in the church and not enough of the, you know, the love that

helps people avoid the fire. I think that you just beautifully described as the unity of the love commandment that you love your, you love God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and you love your neighbor as yourself. The love, the love of God identifies the pattern and then the interplay between the love of the neighbor and the love of the self. They're inextricated but inextricically intertwined.

So to love the neighbor is to see the neighbor as he or she actually is and to respond to the actuality, not to your desires, not to what you want this person to be in a utilitarian and instrumental sense, but to the reality of that eternal soul right there. And in and through that, then you see who you are. That's a commentary on the Ten Commandments, right? That's Christ's summation of the Ten Commandments. So that's another illustration of that abstraction, proper behavior, the story on top of that, the

propositions, that would be the Ten Commandments, let's say. So then Christ is challenged on the Ten Commandments, something like rank order these, if you're so wise. Right? Exactly. Because you're going to say something heretical. And Christ does this unbelievable slate of mind and extracts out two superordinate principles. And it's done in such a compelling way that the interlocutor who's basically a prosecutorial mind, like an inquisitionist in some sense, is reduced to silence.

That's a very powerful story. It's one of those stories you read that you think, it's not obvious how someone could have made that up. There's a lot of genius. There's an immense well of moral genius in that story. And the idea that that's some sort of casual false construct, you know, produced for the purposes of power, it's like, well, you try to write a story that's short, that that's that is that wise, see how far you get with it. So, yeah, those those stories are all over the Gospels. I mean, think about the story where the woman is caught in adultery, and they say to Jesus, well, the law says we should stoner to death. What do you say?

And they're trying to trap them, of course, because if he says, well, don't stoner to death, then they say, well, you're against Moses, huh? You're a religious heretic. And then if he says, go ahead and throw the stones, then he's going against his message of mercy. But Jesus, of course, says very famously, let whoever has the first sin cast the first, whoever has no sin cast the first stone. And, you know, everyone has to drop their stones and go away. And then he says to her, of course, go and sin no more. So that kind of story, you think, yeah, you'd have to have quite an imagination, be a kind of literary genius to come up

with this. And I think it's important, in part, because Christ combines both. That is to say, we have the command. And the commandment, say, not to commit adultery, is therefore a reason. I'm sure you know from your clinical practice that that can cause unbelievable problems

for couples and families. But he also has the mercy. So Jesus combines the high commands of justice and with this high mercy. And in a way, that's what the church is seeking to do. Now, always imperfectly because we're imperfect, but both need to be there. There needs to be the moral, the high moral calling, but also the great mercy, both.

Because I think one without the other is going to be unbalanced. And the high moral calling again is for our own good. The law is a form of grace. This is how we flourish. This is how we become happy. Now, of course, we fail, which brings in the mercy component, but that's another terrible misconstruel of religion broadly and specifically Christianity and Catholicism. That's somehow these rules were premised on control or power as, as they're motivating reason for coming into existence. It's the exact opposite. It's to liberate. It's to liberate us from ourselves. I guess it's the other thing that, that seems to have worked in my lectures,

is like a lot of this, a lot of the work I've done was motivated by my attempts, I supposed to understand hell. And then more than that, like, how is it that you become an active contributor to hell? And you might say, well, hell isn't real. Well, and I would say then, well, you haven't looked enough. If you think that's true, you're fortunate enough so that you can believe that's not true. It's like you know nothing about history and you've been unbelievably sheltered in your own life if you don't believe that hell is real.

And you know, maybe only someone cruel would wish that that ignorance be stripped away from you. But if you study history as a perpetrator, well then if you study history, you believe in hell and if you study history as a perpetrator, then you see how your own inequity contributes to that. And then it's not unreasonable to say, well, if you love people, you would try to guide them away from that. And then it's not unreasonable to say, well, if you love people, you would try to guide them away from that. And when I did my maps of meaning lectures at the university

and in public, that's always in the back of my mind. It's, well, look at what happened in Germany and look at what happened in the Soviet Union and look at what happened in China and how do you act so that that happens? Well, I wouldn't make that happen. It's like if you say that, then you would, because you don't know enough, because if you do, you'd say, yes, I could contribute to that, and I probably am,

and I should be terrified enough to stop if I only knew how, and then these guidelines to love and to tell the truth, they are in fact protection against exactly that kind of catastrophe. Yeah, and I think it's true, not only in those very dramatic examples of hell, like the Goolog, but I think it's true in a really everyday sense. I mean, yes, hell can start here on earth in a very everyday sort of way. So I think if somebody actually that I know on my block,

and this person is incredibly angry at everyone, even people that try to help this person, she's always angry at them, and she's filled with hatred and bitterness and everything's bad. And so for this person, I would say she is already living in hell, the beginning of hell, at least here on earth. I mean, her life, as far as I would say, she is already living in hell, the beginning of hell, at least here on earth. I mean, her life, as far as I can tell, is just really, really hellish in every respect and then people in contact with her, she makes their life hellish very often.

And the reverse is true too. There can be people here and now who are already living in the beginnings of heaven. They're filled with love for God, they're filled with love for other people. They love themselves. They, they love themselves, they are living this heavenly life because at the end of the day, at least on the Catholic view, what is heaven? Well, what heaven is is perfect love of God, perfect love of other people, perfect love of yourself. And what is hell? What's the opposite of that? It's a lack of all that, right? It's lacking love of God, lacking love for other people, lacking love for yourself. It's being filled with hatred. So heaven and hell, I would say, really begin right now. And in the life to come, I say they're intensified, they're deepened.

So, and this is the division of Dante, right, that, that, you know, heaven or hell is something that all of its punishments are meant to show that this sin is its own punishment in some respect, right? All the punishments that say that people in hell experience are all a natural outgrowth of their own bad behavior here below. And we can see this in everyday life with, for instance, people that, you know, end up destroying their relationships, destroying their families, and they end up isolated alone, and again, living as sort of hellish existence.

But unfortunately, in those cases, they are as a were their own worst enemy. I think that connects back to the, your insights into morality as well, and that it is remarkable, just in a cultural sense that your work, which has rules in the title, 12 of them, right, two books, has garnered the audience.

There's obviously a that it has. There's obviously a profound hunger, cross-culturally, cross linguistically, for what you are saying and what you are saying is about the necessity of rules. I think what we have here is we now have a couple generations that have been liberated from rules. And we get to see what that actually looks like in practice. And it's not just the possibility

of these external forms of hell, it absolutely is that, but the internal forms of hell as well. Depression and anxiety, I can't think of any greater hell than being in the grips of severe depression and severe anxiety. I can't think of any greater hell than being in the grips of severe depression and severe anxiety. The worst thing that you can tell somebody in that position is do whatever you want and invent anything according to your own fancy. It's poison. So the fact that there are rules and that these rules correspond with reality and therefore are good and for our happiness, I think just speaks again to not only the necessity of

the rules, but the fact that we are all called to something greater and when we stop that call, hell begins to take over, sold by soul. Can you have their directions? If you're lost and you're trying to get somewhere and. Can have their directions if you're lost and you're trying to get somewhere and someone provides you with directions, you have to turn right to the certain point and left to the certain point and you don't say, well, to hell with these rules,

you say, thank God for these rules because you know how wander off the path and then where will I end up at the least lost? And so yeah, it's. All right, so I want to close with one more question. If that's okay, unless you guys have something else you want to talk about, what are you doing right at fire? What's working at word on fire?

Yeah. What's working? What's working? I think the on a lot of it, I would say, it sort of follows the contours of the conversation that we've had. The rules are there. The dogmatic clarity is there. The arguments are there. The propositions and the defense of those propositions is all there. So there's sort of a apologetic foundation to it. So it's necessary, but again, not the most important. One of Werdum fires, uh, uh, ways of describing the work

that it does is is acting at the intersection of faith and culture and leading with beauty. So again, there's theological frees in this. If God exists, then God is the unity of all that is good, all that is true, and all that is beautiful. And these aren't mutually exclusive. And you don't have to choose one or the other.

So the mission of this Apostle, it is to without any kind of denigration of the importance of truth, is to lead with beauty and with that to reopen the eyes of the culture to the possibility of being happy and living a life that is genuinely enchanted in a non-magical real sense. Is it working? Are you seeing results? Is it working? Are you seeing results? I think so.

I think so. So, you know, I follow word on fire very closely in terms of the materials they produce. And I benefit from them and enjoy them a lot. And I think part of this success is the distinctive work of Bishop Robert Barron. I mean, I think that he is to be credited his own way, his own intellectual way of putting things and his winning way of persuading others, I think is very, very powerful and has seen great results. So, so I'm very grateful to be connected with word on fire. And as I say, not only do I sometimes produce content for them, but also I benefit personally from listening to his podcasts,

his sermons, et cetera. So it's been a real benefit for me. I'm going to be talking to him a couple of days along with Jonathan Pazzo and John Verveki. So I'm very much looking forward to that. An extension of this conversation, I suppose. So, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you think is vital that we should talk about? Well, one thing I wanted to ask you and encourage you really would be, if at some point

you could carry out the plan that you've talked about before of giving lectures on Exodus. And I realize given COVID restrictions and things like that, maybe it's impossible right now to rent out a huge place, etc. But I wonder if you could even just do it via video, right, that you, you know, or even to a very small group. I think that your lectures on Genesis were such a huge benefit for literally millions of people.

And I think that lecturing on Exodus, which in some ways is an even more gripping story. I mean, it's very traumatic. I think that could be an enormous benefit to many, many people. So anyway, I just wanna, I was wondering if you were planning on doing that or if you'd be willing, maybe given COVID and and restrictions maybe to do it in a different format slightly different than you did before.

I'm trying to figure out how to do it. I've had a lot of health trouble and it's got in the way in a big way. I'm trying to figure out how to do it and figure out if I can do it. It's not obvious to me what I'm capable of doing and what I can't do. So, but it's definitely something I would love to do. I mean, I have the ideas. I developed them in the lectures, obviously, but I would love to do it. So, God willing and all that. I would just end with the statement I suppose. I'm sure you already know this, but there are many, many believers like ourselves who are praying for you and who are so grateful for your voice on the international stage and the kinds

of arguments that you're making and the kinds of appeals to becoming better, both individually and socially, as communities, you are a light in the darkness for many people. And again, I'm saying that as a believer from within the Christian community, looking out at someone who's not claiming to be a Christian, but I just want you to know that we are praying for you and that we wish you all the best. It's very much appreciated.

Very much appreciated. So I hope that I can, I really hope that I can do these sex of the sluxers. That would be something. So I'm working out a way to do it. I have a group of people maybe that I'm going to talk to exodus about. I might just record those discussions like this. We'll walk through it with some people who can help comment.

So I think I might be able to manage that. We'll see. Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you. And for the attention that you showed me in the book and all of that and for the work you're doing with Word on fire. And hopefully we'll get a chance to talk again. We'll see what people think of this conversation. See what they might not hear more about or less about.

So. Thank you, Jordan. Thank about. So thank you Jordan. Thank you. All right. Bye bye.