The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 319. Detransition: The Wounds that Won't Heal | Chloe Cole

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Dr. Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: https://utm.io/ueSXh Dr Jordan B Peterson sits down with 18 year old de-transitioner Chloe Cole. Chloe was indoctrinated, affirmed, and set on an irreparable path at the age of 15, and now finds herself abandoned by the community and the doctors that lead her over the edge. Chloe Cole is an 18 year old de-transitioner from The Central Valley of California. She started her transition at 12 years old, puberty blockers and testosterone at 13 and a double mastectomy at 15 years old. She is now a strong advocate against gender ideology. - Links - For Chloe Cole: Chloe Cole on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChoooColeChloe Cole on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chooocole/?hl=enChloe Cole on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@ChoooCole Help support Chloe on Donorbox:  https://donorbox.org/chloe-cole - Chapters - (0:00) Coming Up(1:00) Chloe's story, the beginning(1:57) Early puberty, negative emotion across gender(7:24) On the spectrum, the tomboy(9:00) Puberty, expectations and the shock of reality(10:35) Manifestations of negative emotion(14:30) Gender dysphoria, key traits(16:30) Ken Sucker, leaving kids alone(18:00) Homosexual attraction(21:30) Mentality, creativity, early interests(25:00) Image orientation, social media(27:00) Feminist ideology, the dread of womanhood(30:00) Negative emotion levels, societal hierarchies(32:50) Burying maternal instinct, the non-binary wave(35:10) Lacking community, the draw of LGBT+(38:48) Alternative pathways, therapy and deception(42:00) How therapy is supposed to work, the three questions(47:30) So-called therapy, affirming care(51:00) Flat out lies, “less than 3 percent regret rates”(53:00) Parents coerced(55:05) Speedy approvals for affirming procedures(57:08) Mentality through transition, 8th grade(1:00:00) Radical change over practical steps(1:03:50) Fractured sense of self, sexualization(1:06:00) Autogynephilia, fact of the fantasy(1:10:15) Androgens, testosterone, porn addiction(1:12:00) Complete disorientation, online dating(1:14:00) Effects over time, mental and physical effects(1:15:25) 15 years old, sexual assault, re-affirming(1:19:45) Chest binders, further steps towards the edge(1:21:00) Double mastectomy, “part of the process”(1:24:25) Suicide, medication and intense depression(1:27:00) Flocking toward surgery, pushed across age groups(1:28:50) Breast deformity, justification and denial(1:30:00) Sexualization by doctors(1:33:00) Removal of stitches, aftermath and horror(1:35:00) Regrowing nerve endings, mismatched feeling(1:36:10) Return of feminine characteristics(1:39:00) Tiffany fields, crucial contact(1:40:35) Regret, shame, the illusion breaks(1:44:00) 16, desire for motherhood(1:46:00) Play, chimpanzees and comparable gender affiliation(1:49:00) De-transitioning, lack of guidance(1:51:45) Hypocrisy in patient-led treatment(1:52:30) When the community turns on you(1:54:40) Core of Chloe's claim, malpractice and negligence(1:57:30) Lasting complications(2:00:00) The legal front, upcoming battle // SUPPORT THIS CHANNEL //Newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/jordanbpeterson.com/youtubesignupDonations: https://jordanbpeterson.com/donate // COURSES //Discovering Personality: https://jordanbpeterson.com/personalitySelf Authoring Suite: https://selfauthoring.comUnderstand Myself (personality test): https://understandmyself.com // BOOKS //Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life: https://jordanbpeterson.com/Beyond-Order12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos: https://jordanbpeterson.com/12-rules-for-lifeMaps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief: https://jordanbpeterson.com/maps-of-meaning // LINKS //Website: https://jordanbpeterson.comEvents: https://jordanbpeterson.com/eventsBlog: https://jordanbpeterson.com/blogPodcast: https://jordanbpeterson.com/podcast // SOCIAL //Twitter: https://twitter.com/jordanbpetersonInstagram: https://instagram.com/jordan.b.petersonFacebook: https://facebook.com/drjordanpetersonTelegram: https://t.me/DrJordanPetersonAll socials: https://linktr.ee/drjordanbpeterson #JordanPeterson #JordanBPeterson #DrJordanPeterson #DrJordanBPeterson #DailyWirePlus

Hello everyone watching and listening on YouTube and on the daily wearer platform associated podcast. We have a rough one today. So buckle up. I'm speaking with Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old, so-called D-transitioner from the Central Valley of California. She started her transition at 12 years old, puberty blockers in testosterone at 13 and had a double mastectomy at 15 years old. She is now a strong advocate against gender ideology

and seeks legally to hold those propelling it forward accountable. Hello, Chloe, Mary Christmas. Thank you for agreeing to talk to me today and to everybody who's watching and listening. You've been through quite a complicated experience to say the least for the last five or six years, and you've decided in recent months to go public with your story, and also

to initiate some legal proceedings against the medical professionals who, what would you say, aided you in your exciting journey. And so, do you want to tell us exactly, tell us the situation you're in now and tell us about what's happened to you since you emerged from childhood? Yeah, so at the age of 12, I started experiencing some gender dysphoria. And I started seeing a therapist

and I got diagnosis and I started going on the path of medical transition at the age of 13, starting with blockers and then moving on to hormones and at 15, I got a double mastectomy. But it turned out that it wasn't the best decision for me and I stopped transitioning at the age of 16. Okay, so let's go back to when you were, let's go back to when you were 12. What about when did you hit puberty? I had a fairly early puberty actually started by start developing

at around the age of nine, if not a little bit earlier. Okay, okay, and so at nine, did that, do you remember if that changed you emotionally? Yeah, it did. It was really difficult for me actually. Okay, so let me give you a little background. It was really difficult for me, actually. Okay. So let me give you a little background. You tell me if anybody's ever told you this before, okay?

So boys and girls experience before puberty experience approximately the same levels of negative emotion. So that would be primarily anxiety and emotional pain or even sometimes susceptibility to physical pain. And emotions like frustration and disappointment and shame and guilt and self-consciousness are all part of that, what would you call it? Network of negative emotion.

Now, what happens to girls when they hit puberty and no one knows exactly why this is, is that their negative emotion levels go up. And so that on average, women, biologically mature women, are more sensitive to negative emotion than biologically mature men. And that kicks in at puberty. Now there's a variety of explanations for that, but no one knows for certain.

And here's some of them, okay. So first of all, sexual dimorphism and physical strength really emerges at puberty. So boys and girls are pretty evenly matched physically, but once puberty kicks in, boys are taller, stronger, heavier, and they're much stronger in terms of upper body strength. So women are at a disadvantage physically

in relationship to anything that might have to do with physical combat. And so, on those grounds, it makes sense for women to be somewhat more sensitive to threat. Okay, so then the other explanation is that women are more vulnerable sexually than men, because they bear a much higher cost for reproduction, obviously, with pregnancy and protracted dependence of infants. And so, it makes, so they're more vulnerable on the sexual front, so it makes, it makes sense for them to be more sensitive to any threat that's associated with sexual activity.

And then the third explanation, and there may be more, is that women are charged generally speaking with the primary responsibility for infants. And infants are extremely dependent and vulnerable. And so you could make a case that adult women's nervous systems are actually adapted for the mother child dyad and not for they say emotional well-being of the individual woman. And a woman needs to be threat-sensitive because she's going to be taking care of infants and an extremely dependent children, and it makes sense for her to be more cognizant of threats as a consequence, even though the negative consequence of that for women, and all of this,

is that women are much more likely to suffer from depression and anxiety than men. Cross culturally, it's between three to one and five to one. Now men have their associated pathologies, men are more likely to be anti-social, for example, and to abuse alcohol. But women predominate on the negative emotion side. And then I would say that's exacerbated, you know, if you hit puberty early because you have to deal with these complexities of physiological transformation

at a very young age. And so that's a difficult thing to handle emotionally. And then there's the additional consequence of whatever hormonal turbulence might emerge as a consequence of the onset of puberty. It's very common for young women to experience high levels of negative emotion. And for those emotions to be focused on their body, because another thing that's characteristic of female negative emotion is that the self-consciousness associated with that tends to focus very particularly on

body, shame, and self-consciousness. And that might be because women are evaluated more rigorously on the basis of their physical appearance than men. Men are evaluated more harshly, sexually, let's say, on the performance side, you know, with regard to socioeconomic status and so forth. But women are definitely evaluated more harshly by men and by each other in terms of their physical attractiveness.

So that makes quite a complicated situation for girls who are making the transition into puberty, and a lot of them are depressed and anxious, and that and develop an intense focus on their body. So I don't know how much of that was explained to you by your therapists or the medical professionals, but that's all well documented, psychological and medical information. Yeah, none of that was really explained to me by therapists' breathing growing up.

I mean, even so, that all... Every single part of what you said actually paid a role in a lot of my childhood distress and my transition and eventually my detransition actually, you know. Growing up, I was a bit of a tomboy and also on the spectrum and I didn't know this until I was diagnosed just last year, but it did play a role in my socialization and my difficulty getting along with other girls growing up and I found that I fit in more of the boys and when I hit puberty it was a bit earlier than most of my peers and I got taller than them

and oh yeah you know I could keep up with the boys, and I had a lot of pride in that, but as the years went on, they started to get taller than me and outmatch me physically, and this did bring on a bit of distress for me. As I got older, socialization began to become more sex-oriented, and I found it even harder to fit in with girls my age and But at the same time I was also starting to notice there's a divide between me and boys And several ways and There was there was a lot of loneliness for me because on one hand I didn't really feel like I was I was one of the girls, but on the other hand I was losing my connection with some of my friends who I

Was close with and really cared about. And I also had some body image issues growing up as well. I often talk about how social media played a role in it, but really it started from a very young age actually. I mean, I grew up, I was born into a very image oriented, very sex oriented society. And mean, I grew up, I was born into a very immejorated, very sex oriented society. And, you know, before I hit puberty, I was looking forward to having a developed body and eventually going breasts. And, you know, once I hit puberty and once I hit puberty, I was, it wasn't what I expected.

And I was really quite disappointed it wasn't what I expected. I was really quite disappointed how I looked. I was very skinny. I was on the smaller chested side. I grew up in an age where we glorify bodies that are very voluptuous. Lots of curves. People often use a phrase like body heavy, I mean bottom heavy or our glass,

hair shape, things like that. And I didn't look like that at all. I was, you know, I was quite thin, a little on the muscular side. And if anything, my shoulders were probably the widest point in my body. And I kind of had a complex over this. I also liked having my hair short,

because of all this, I felt like if anything, I didn't really look at a girl at all. I didn't look like the other girls my age. And I felt like I just wasn't pretty and that I would never really have any more sense of woman. Yeah, well, it's a very rare adolescent. And probably a particularly rare female adolescent who feels attractive in the early stages of puberty.

So everything that you experienced, although you may have experienced it in an exaggerated manner for some of the reasons you laid out, but everything you experienced is in some real sense, par for the course, for a few years, for the vast majority of people. Now, you did add one additional issue, which we could delve into a little bit, which I think is relevant. So, you said that you're on the spectrum and that you had an easier time communicating with boys than with girls. And so, here's something to know about that. So, the biggest reliable difference that's been documented between males and females, and this becomes even larger in egalitarian societies,

by the way, is orientation of interest. So women are higher in negative emotion, and they're more agreeable, and agreeableness is both compassion and politeness. And although the difference between men and women isn't massive, it's significant, and it also maximizes the Nec allitarian society. So it looks like it's biological.

But the biggest difference is in interest. And boys, males, are more reliably interested in things. And girls, females, are more reliably interested in people. But people on the autistic spectrum are also more reliably interested in things. And so for example, if you're extremely autistic, the psychological phrase for descriptive purposes is lacking theory of mind.

And so extremely autistic people have a hard time understanding what's going on in someone else's mind at all. They tend to be almost entirely thing-oriented. And there's a much higher preponderance of autistic symptoms among engineers. And then if engineers in Silicon Valley, for example, male engineers and female engineers often by statistical comparison, often Mary, and their children are disproportionately likely to be autistic. And so the fact that you are tilted towards the autistic end of the spectrum, first of all, that might just be an indication of neurological wiring that tilts you towards interest in things,

just so you know that. So that's not necessarily autistic in and of itself. It's just part of the normal variation in what would you call it? Well, an intentional orientation. But the fact that you on the spectrum, let's say, and more interested in things is going to make it more difficult for you to communicate with girls, because girls are reliably more interested in people. And so, and then on the image front, this ties in with the idea of self-consciousness. So if you're on stage and you're talking to people,

and you become aware of yourself, tends to make you nervous and sweat and to become uncomfortable, to experience high levels of negative emotion. And self-consciousness itself looks like a manifestation of negative emotion. They're incredibly tightly linked, statistically, almost indistinguishable from one another.

And so what you see happening very often in girls because girls are self-conscious in relationship to their body, because that's one of the primary ways they're assessed, let's say, for attractiveness and for social status, is that that self-consciousness tends to take the form of intense preoccupation with body and with image. And so that can be exacerbated by whatever social trends have to be in place, but it's a very deep-seated problem. And so that's part of, and also the fact that you hit puberty earlier is going to make that, obviously, is going to make that more complicated because it means you're not as neurologically or practically mature when you have to contend with all these issues.

So everything that you described in some sense could have been attributed to the difficulties of normative development, just so you know. And this proclivity of teenagers to develop depression and anxiety, I want to take that apart for a minute too for everybody who's listening. So, imagine gender dysphoria. Okay, so 10 years ago it was comparatively rare, but not unheard of. But imagine it has two components, okay?

One is a tendency towards negative emotion, so suffering, anxiety, depression, frustration, disappointment, pain, shame, guilt, self-consciousness, all of that. And then imagine there's a second part of it that's more specifically focused on discomfort with the body. Okay, the first part of that is the bulk of it. So if you look across forms of psychopathology, like mental illness. The major segment is high levels of negative emotion

like depression and anxiety. And a secondary segment is the particular manifestation of that in your case in body dysmorphia. And so, and then the claims that uninformed mental health professionals make that you're at elevated risk for suicide if your gender dysphoric is erroneous because the elevated risk for suicide is actually a consequence of the general proclivity for depression and anxiety and not a specific consequence of the gender dysphoria, or at least that's

only a small subcomponent of it. And so that's another thing to know is that the main clump of psychopathological manifestation, mental illness, is centered on heightened levels of negative emotion. And of course, that spikes for adolescent girls. Now, you may have been told this, but perhaps you weren't. So there are good long-term studies of children with gender dysphoria. Most of them were conducted in Toronto, where I happened to be by a man named Ken Zucker. And Zucker ran a clinic for gender dysphoric kids way before this became part of the culture war, let's say. And he was a very straight and honest scientist,

a very good researcher, not a political person. And what he showed was, what his clinic showed, many peer reviewed studies, was that gender dysphoria of the type that you described is relatively rare. But if you leave kids alone till they're 19 or 18, 80 to 90% of them settle into their biological if you leave kids alone till they're 19 or 18, 80 to 90% of them settle into their biological identity.

Although about 80% of them also are also homosexual in their orientation. And so the pathway for him before this was all politicized, was you'd have a child who was gender nonconforming temperamentally somewhat like you were You didn't have a pattern of female interests, let's say and so and then prone to depression and anxiety and then that combination would produce this gender dysphoria and that would become quite intense around the dawn of puberty but if you just back the hell off and waited, those kids would settle into their body,

but generally I adopted a homosexual orientation. And so that was, as far as I can tell, that was the best research. Now, Zucker got slaughtered for this once it became politicized. He lost his job, he was pilloried by the Toronto star of the newspaper here. He went to lawsuit against them just a couple of years ago, but they demolished his career. And his guideline medically was, don't do any harm.

Right? Back the hell off. You can provide these kids with support, and you can walk them through their emotional problems, but you should certainly not rush into anything more dramatic. Now, you said you started therapy when you were 12. What were you told about what was plaguing you? I think before I get into that, there's some things that I should bring up before that. I mentioned that I did have a late diagnosis for autism, and this is because in preschool and my elementary school years, my teacher is often told my parents actually that I had

some symptoms indicative of autism, and they suggested that they get me diagnosed, but when they brought me to my doctor as a kid, they were told, oh, she's too smart to be autistic, she's too socially developed to be autistic, and so I kind of miss the best opportunity window, the best ages, I guess you would say, to get the diagnosis. It wasn't until after I stopped transitioning, that I got the diagnosis. It wasn't until after I stopped transitioning that I got the diagnosis actually.

And I find that that played a stronger role in my, in the development of my gender dysphoria than my sexual orientation did because I'm mostly, mostly heterosexual, I'm mostly attracted to men. I do have a very marginal attraction to other women, but it's mostly sexual nature. I don't really have any emotional attraction to them. It's not something that I really ever care about because I mean, it's not like, I do want to have a family one day, I do want to have children, and I can't really do that naturally with a woman, so I just don't really see a point in it. Yeah, well, there is some evidence by the way, too. And I would say this evidence is less compelling, but I think it's worth contemplating is that

the distribution of sexual attraction in men looks like it's more bymodal than it is in women. And so there seem to be homosexual men and heterosexual men and not much in between. But on the female side, there's some evidence that women are more broadly attracted to what? Obviously most women are heterosexual in their orientation, but a higher proportion of women report a coattraction to other women than men who report a coattraction to other men. And so why that is, again, isn't exactly obvious, but, and I wouldn't say that research is incontrovertible, but it's also worth knowing,

because one of the things that young women who are confused about their sexual identity and their body might be wondering is, well, now and then I feel an attraction to another girl, what does that mean? Does that mean that I'm not female in my essence, and not female physiologically, I'm not female psychologically, essence, not female physiologically, I'm not female psychologically,

and I would say, no, it doesn't mean that at all. It's pretty damn common. It might even be the norm. And I think most women would, when pushed would make the same statement that you just made about their relative sexual attraction. So that's a good thing to know too. Okay, so back when you were 12,

so you weren't diagnosed with, you were diagnosed a little bit with autism when you were young, but you were told by your medical professionals that you were too intelligent for that diagnosis to be relevant. And so, well, part of that's this distinction, right? It's complicated because what symptoms,

what symptoms did you have of autism when you were a kid? It was mainly social and emotional. I was very prone to emotional outbursts and mainly getting along with and maintaining friendships. I did also have some sensory difficulties, like with certain textures of fabrics or certain smells, certain foods I wouldn't eat. Uh-huh, uh-huh. So, okay. So it was mostly in the social realm. And what about your language development?

Was it normal? Do you know? I was advanced, actually. I had taught myself to read and write, and I was further ahead of my peers in that area. Okay, okay, because one, so yeah, you'd be a complicated case to assess as a child given your retrospective report because another one of the stellar,

what would you say, cardinal characteristics of autism is delayed language development. And so that might have been partly what the physicians were referring to when they said, you know, that you were too smart to be autistic. But then it's also difficult to parse apart the fact that it is a distribution. And the mere fact that you had difficulties in social communication. And were you interested in things? Yeah.

Were you interested in building you were? What about mathematically? What do you mean by that? Do you, well, are you interested in mathematics? Are you more literary in your orientation? Definitely more literary. And I'm also a bit of an artist. I've always like drawing from pretty young age, but as far back as I can remember.

And so what do you do on the hobby side? Like if you're just left your own devices, what kind of activities would you engage in? Usually either like, either illustration or video games. And so you would you regard yourself as a creative person? Yeah. Okay, see that's relevant to a because so creativity is associated with this personality trait, openness. And open people have pretty mutable identities.

It's sort of the hallmark of being creative, right? Is a creative person isn't that stable in their identity, and I don't mean in the negative emotion sense. I mean, they can be one person or another, they're changing. That mutability is part of being creative. And so in your situation,

if you had social difficulties, if you had high levels of negative emotion, if you were characterized by bodily self-consciousness, and you were creative, then you're pretty good candidate for the idea that your gender might not be properly aligned with your physiology. You've got all the risk factors, so to speak, that would put someone in that category.

Okay, so when you were 12, you started therapy, and why was that and what happened? So, I was about 11 when I got my first phone and I started using social media. The main platform I would use was Instagram, so very image oriented. Very image oriented. And yeah, it further reinforced and worsened my body image issues. And I was just force fed a lot of content that was just very difficult to take in. Tell me about that in some detail. So, you're using Instagram.

It's a very imagoriented platform. And you said that was really hard on you. You alluded to earlier, you alluded to the fact that you were looking at socially approved images of women, let's say voluptuous women, and you were drawing a negative conclusion in relationship to yourself. And so exactly how did that play out day to day? I started comparing myself a lot to like my family and the other girls around me. I mean a lot of my, a lot of my female family members are larger

tested, but I got the smaller breasted genes and I was really quite insecure about this. And even though I hit puberty earlier than my other peers, a lot of them were outgrowing me. And I felt like I just couldn't keep up with other women. And also, and a lot of my conversations, or like the conversations I would over here between other girls and women, they often spoke very negatively of being a woman in general, like about how difficult purity is and periods

and how scary it is to be pregnant and then give birth and then have all these expectations placed on you as a mother and then start aging, start having these bodily changes and then eventually go through menopause and it was all painted in a very negative light. I never really heard about the blessings that came with any of these parts of being a woman

and so naturally, I mean, I wouldn't want to go into that. I'm starting to be afraid of that. Yeah, right. I also, yeah, well, you know, when my, go ahead. Well, I would also start seeing a lot of feminist content at this time, which kind of reinforced those same ideas,

while also saying things that were pretty scared to me at the time, like, oh, we live under a patriarchy. We're being controlled by men and they don't care about us. They're taking away our rights. And I don't believe that now, of course. But I kind of fell into that line of thinking. And I wanted, I mean, with all this, I just wanted

absolutely nothing to do with being a woman. I didn't want to grow into a woman. Why would I? Okay, so two things were happening to you. You said, on the one hand, individually, you were suffering from the consequences of your felt inadequacy in relationship to these more voluptuous and like clearly markedly feminine women in relationship to their physiology. And so you felt that that wasn't a domain that you could necessarily compete in.

And then also at the same time, you were being exposed to social and educational material that suggested to you that not only was this a game that you couldn't play very well, let's say, in terms of your physical appearance or maybe your temperament, but also that even if you did play it well, it wasn't necessarily a game worth winning, that there wasn't anything positive on the female front. You know, when my wife was pregnant with our kids,

one of the things that really struck me and I never really forgot it was that so many people would tell her horror stories about pregnancy, sometimes the wrong or sometimes the pregnancy of other people that, you know, that they had known and really do what they could to terrify her. And that always used to irritate me because my wife actually really enjoyed being pregnant. I mean, my daughter got quite ill when she was pregnant, so I know there's a huge variation there. And I saw that with my clinical clients, but it's not like there's nothing positive about being female.

There's plenty of positive about it, but it's easy to fall into a situation where all you hear is that, well, it's oppression, it's suffering, it's vulnerability, it's victimization, there's nothing about it that's positive at all. And I think part of that's a consequence of the higher levels of negative emotion, right? A necessary consequence of that, because women are more susceptible to threat and punishment. But that doesn't seem really to have all that much

to do in any real sense with women's actual place in the social hierarchy. And the reason I say that is because, you see, as I mentioned earlier, there are societies that have become more egalitarian. And so where women clearly have far more opportunity on the socioeconomic front than they've ever had in the past, and those countries, the countries that have gone farthest down that route

are probably the Scandinavian countries. And the consequence of that is that the difference between men and women in negative emotion is actually higher than it is in traditional societies. Women have higher levels of negative emotion in Scandinavia than they do in more traditional societies. And so that doesn't, it doesn't look like the higher levels of negative emotion that are characteristic of femininity are a consequence, let's say, of patriarchal oppression. So there's no evidence to support that hypothesis at all, as far as I can tell.

I mean, obviously there are individual women who are in abusive relationships and who are genuinely being victimized by, you know, psychopaths and sadists. But as a sociological explanation, doesn't seem to hold water. In fact, quite the contrary is true. In any case, you were worried about how you could compete physically. And that's sad too, because men are actually

much less choosy, so to speak, than women are when it comes to evaluating physical attractiveness. So for example, virtually every woman can find a sexual partner and usually very quickly. Certainly not true for men. Men rate 50% of women as above average in attractiveness, whereas women rate 20% of men in above average in attractiveness. And so, you know, this variation in body type that you suffered so much from

might not have been an impediment at all to your ability to manifest yourself as an attractive person in a reasonable society. You know, I can understand, because Instagram is a very heavy image-laden platform. And I can understand why you might have been under a misapprehension, but one of the things that a therapist might have done for you is to help you explore the full range of,

say, body types that are classified as attractive and to show you that, you know, it's not, you don't have to be J low to be attractive. And that's definitely the case. And then there's multiple dimensions to attractiveness, too, that aren't only body-focused as well. I mean, men do evaluate women on the basis of their physical attractiveness, but that's not the only dimension of evaluation.

There's more to the story than that by a lot. So, okay, so you fell into Instagram and you also started to become susceptible to this, what would you say, negative propagandization about the female role? So you couldn't see anything positive in that for you, right? Yeah. And a lot of these, these feminists who kind of downplay, I guess you could say like the traditional role of a woman and the importance of motherhood

or even just fulfilling a maternal role. I didn't really value that a lot growing up because I was the youngest of five kids and I never really had to take care of anybody. I didn't really know what that felt like. So I never really thought that I wanted to have kids. So a few years later, after I stopped transitioning, actually I realized that I did have a maternal instinct, and I really did want to be a mother and have had

blood children. And that was an instinct that wasn't really fostered, or wasn't really allowed to grow at all, because I was playing the role of a boy, and also taking testosterone on top of that. But at the same, at roughly the same time that I started using social media, the role of a boy and also taking testosterone on top of that. But, you know, at the same, at roughly the same time that I started using social media,

started seeing feminist content and just held that as Instagram. I would also see a lot of like LGBT focused content. And a lot of it was teenagers and young adults who identified as transgender or non-binary and it was primarily young women. And I would often see, a lot of them had the same struggles as I did socially and many of them weren't exactly the closest with their families. And I would see them go from struggling to changing their expression and then eventually becoming more accepted by their families.

And it seemed like people really supported them and had their backs and that they had this sense of community around them. And that was something that really touched me because that was, I didn't really realize at the time, but I, that was something that I wish that I had. Okay, so you wish that you had what do you mean a peer community, like when you're, when you were feeling lo and some isolated, what is it that you were lacking and what is it

that you were wishing for? Um, I think mainly I really wish that I had friends around me who I knew I could depend on. And when... Okay, did you have any friends at that period? Did you have any friends at that period of time? I did, but I wasn't... I wouldn't say that I was particularly close to them or that I had very many at school.

I mean, I didn't really fit in at, I didn't really fit in in middle school. I didn't have a whole lot of friends. And I found that there was kind of a favoritism among students by staff. And I was like a new kid. And I wasn't really involved in any sports or clubs or activities or anything like that. And I was kind of a difficult student.

And I found that I was being bullied by both students and staff. Right. And I also, I wasn't like being abused by my family or anything, but I just wasn't very close to anybody really. I mean, my siblings are older than me. There's about like a seven-year-old age gap between me and the rest of them. And I mean, from a young know, they became, they got older, they started like kidding puberty

and becoming teenagers and they didn't always want to be around me, they want to do their own thing. So. Okay, so you, you're having difficulties on the body image front and that's exacerbated by your temperament and by early puberty, let's say, you're not as popular with your peers as you might be, you're somewhat isolated in relationship to your siblings because they're older than you.

You're having a bit of a difficult time socially in middle school. And now you're seeing on Instagram the emergence of this explanation for your problems that's generated by people who sound like they have the same issues that you do. And what you see is that when they adopt this new non- or gender-fluid identity, that, well, what do you see? What happens when they have a community all of a sudden, people are supportive of them? Like, why did that become attractive to you? I think I saw the similarities between me and them in a lot of ways. And I mean, when I was younger, I was often compared to a boy. And I liked hearing things like,

oh, you're being such a boy or wow,, you're such a boy from my older sister and mom and stuff. It just made me, I don't know, I don't really know why at the time, but it just made me proud to, peer things like that. I guess it just felt like kind of been achievement because I didn't particularly like other girls and I didn't really like the fact that I was a girl either. And especially as I got older, I really wanted to weigh out.

And when I started seeing this content, it taught me that there was, and that I didn't have to be a woman. Right. Well, there is something complementary, let's say, in some sense about having those masculine attributes, those masculine qualities attributed to you when you're a young girl, because they're often associated when they're positive with something like courageousness and the willingness to explore and the ability to sort of stand on your own two feet. And so you can imagine how that might be attractive.

And then you also were presented with a solution to your problems in some sense, right? You had quite a complex series of issues that were besetting you. And all of a sudden there's a pathway forward. And the pathway forward is something like, and correct me if I'm wrong. I do not want to put words in your mouth,

is that while you have a-standard gender identity, let's say, and that means maybe you're born in the wrong body, something like that. Now, it's interesting, in your case, because you know, you actually, your basic core fantasy was that you wanted to be a fully developed and let's say, voluptuous woman.

I mean, so that was really driving this, but from what I understand, but you were worried that wouldn't happen, and then you started to become concerned about the adoption of a female identity. And then there was this alternative pathway that was laid forward before you. What was happening to you in therapy at this time? Was all this making itself manifest? Well, you were in therapy, and what role was your therapist playing in this? Yeah, so better on the age of 12, I decided that I wasn't actually a girl

after some period of time questioning my sexuality and eventually my gender identity. I switched between labels before I finally settled on, you know, I think I'm just actually a boy. And I started cutting my hair shorter gradually, worrying more boys clothing. And I came up to my older sister, some friends that I was closer to, and at school, and some people online as well. And then after a few months, I decided that I wanted to tell my parents about this and also start the path of medical transition. And so I wrote a letter explaining to them that I wanted to be their son and that I wanted them to refer to me by a new name. And they were beyond shocked.

They, I don't really know how as a parent, you can expect to hear something like this. And I knew at the time, even that it would be kind of, it would be pretty shocking to them. And so I wanted to allow them some time to think it over and think of their response. I was also scared of how they would react. So that was why I wrote a letter instead of bringing it up to them face to face.

They wanted to support me, but they were, they weren't exactly sure of what they should do. And so they wanted to seek the help of somebody who may be an expert in this who is more knowledgeable in this. And they thought of it as like a psychological issue. And they wanted to get to the root of it. And so they sent me to a therapist. Do you remember what specialization

did you, was your therapist? Did you see a psychologist or a psychiatrist, a social worker? Do you know, do you remember? I don't remember his title. I think he was just a generic pediatric therapist. And the first one I saw actually wasn't very thorough. He didn't even give me diagnosis. I don't think he didn't really go into the reasons why,

why I was feeling this way. I was just kind of like, oh, so, your boy, okay. And then he just never really went into anything, which was a problem because- Let me tell you for a second what should have happened. Okay, just so you know, and so that everybody listening knows. So when somebody comes to see you as a therapist, you kind of have three questions that are paramount.

The first question is, well, why is this person here? And you don't know. Now what you assume is something generically, is something like, well, this person is suffering and confused for some reason, to the point where that's become unbearable enough that they want to seek outside help. And that's not trivial, because people generally don't seek outside help unless they're pretty desperate. So the first question is, well, this person is suffering why.

And then the next question is, well, is that something that goes along with why? Is that something that's intrinsic to them? So is there something wrong with them? Say, in relationship to a mental illness or a physical illness? Or is there something about their situation that would make anybody miserable if they were in the same situation? And then the third thing is, well, having sorted out that the person is miserable and why they're miserable, what could be done about it? And all of that should be open for discussion, right? So if you came to see me as a therapist,

the first thing I would do is kind of what I'm doing in this interview today is I try to figure out, well, what exactly is going on with you? And you see, that's different than affirming your identity, right? Because you could come to me as a client and say, well, I think I'm a boy. And the proper response for me as a therapist is, okay, well, you know, you've said that. And I want to find out why that is, but I'm not going to take that as gospel. I'm going to find out because we're trying to solve a complicated problem here,

which is, well, you're suffering. And it isn't exactly obvious why. In fact, it's not obvious at all. And it's not up to me as a therapist to leap to a conclusion. It's up to me to talk to you, and maybe for hundreds of hours, to find out exactly what it is that's going on. Because I found out already,

look, your initial fantasy was that you wanted to be female, but you felt that in some ways your body was failing you on that front. And then you looked for, and then you found out that being a female wasn't, you know, maybe had some downsides and maybe all downsides. And so then you were looking for an alternative, and you found one that also explained some of the difficulties you were having socially. That's what you've told me so far. Okay, but that doesn't mean we know what to do about it yet, right? We've laid out the problem landscape, but the logical conclusion of that isn't you're a boy and you should go on puberty

blockers and then move towards surgery, right? We're nowhere near that. We're dozens of hours or hundreds of hours away from any decision like that. And so, well, so that's what should have happened to you when you went for therapy. You should have had the time to lay out the whole problem and then to have the space to explore this really deeply so that you could come to terms with what it was that you need, how you needed to move forward. Okay, so you said that as far as I can tell so far,

you said your therapist accepted the idea that you should be a boy pretty damn rapidly. I should also point out to everyone who's listening, that's actually now mandatory by law. So any in many jurisdictions, so now because of standards of gender affirming care, therapists are required if you say something like you're a girl, you say something like, well, I'm a boy, the therapist is now required to agree with you on pain of license loss.

So beware everyone listening and watching because that's now the law in many places. And so to me, that's the end of psychotherapy, because all psychotherapy is a questioning approach fundamentally. You know, to find out what the problem is and then to try to work towards, well, first of all, non-harmful solutions. You know, so I would have with you, for example, I would have explored some of the realm of alternative forms of beauty. That would have been a nice thing to walk you through to some degree.

So you could see more of what the range was of acceptable and admirable physiological types. Because that, you know, I don't know for sure that we would have done that, but we might have. Because that would have been good for you to get a broader picture of attractiveness, right? And then also to tell you about the fact that a lot of the misery that you were experiencing was, well, par for the course for females at puberty, but also exacerbated by your temperamental proclivities. And so that might have helped you calm down a bit, right?

Because you get a bit of an explanation for your misery that way. And also some hope that you'll, that you'd kind of grow out of it with time. So, okay, so you went to the therapist and he more or less agreed with your prognosis and diagnosis that you were a boy, okay? So was the therapeutic process of any utility to you? No, he didn't really do anything actually. I was actually pretty dissatisfied with him. I did have some stuff going on at home and at school that he just never went into.

The full picture of my mental health wasn't really explored at all, actually, throughout the course of my transition. And a lot of what I mentioned, I didn't even know was a problem until recently. And so well after I stopped transitioning and I was, you know, I didn't even know was a problem. And so recently, and so well after I stopped transitioning, and I was old enough to really be able to introspect well enough to figure out where it all stemmed from. But it was never explored by the adults who put me on this path. OK, so what did they, how often did you go see your therapist and what actually happened during the so-called

therapeutic process? I was seeing maybe about like once a week to once every two weeks and you know, I would talk about, it's hard to remember so far back, but I remember nothing really ever came out of the appointments. I would tell him, like, oh, my phone got taken away and I don't really have any contact with the outside world, for example. And he would just be like, oh, okay, how are you dealing with that?

And I'd be like, you know, not very well. And he would just say, okay, and not really do anything about it. Not really offer me anything at all. And eventually, I'd say after maybe like a month or so, he maybe got fired or he transferred somewhere else because he wasn't there anymore and then I got sent to another therapist. And roughly around that time, I expressed to my parents that, you know, I'm not always satisfied. I want to go through with a medical transition. I want to go on hormones and they actually pushed back on the surface.

They were very cautious of this. They didn't know why I was pushing for it so much and they wanted me to wait a little bit because at this point in time, I was only 13 years old. I was quite young to be doing such a thing. And they say that way. And so I got my gender dysphoria diagnosis and during one of the appointments that they're there for. They, I can't remember who exactly it was. It was either a therapist or a nurse, I think. Somebody who was involved in my transition, they told them that, oh, this is the only, pretty much the only means I'm treating this for you.

There was no regards to any alternative treatments. My dad asked about the regret rates and they said, oh, they didn't even, I don't think they even used the word detransition. They said, oh, there's less than a one to two percent regret rate. And they also told my parents that if I wasn't allowed to go through with this, then I would be at risk of suicide.

Okay, so I want to take all of that apart. Because every single one of those statements is a lie. So first of all, the American Psychological Association and their guidelines for gender affirming treatment makes the case that, and because of prejudice, that there are no good, long-term follow-up studies of transgender individuals. Okay, and they attribute that to prejudice against transgender individuals, which is not the reason, by the way.

The reason is that there's a very low base rate, or there was of transgender dysphoria, and the follow-up studies haven't been done in large part because the surgical and hormonal treatment regimen is relatively new. and the follow-up studies haven't been done in large part because the surgical and hormonal treatment regimen is relatively new. But there are no good long-term follow-up studies and they actually complain about that. And then a couple pages later in the same document, they say that, well, it's necessary to affirm

an alternate gender identity because otherwise the client or patient is at heightened risk of suicide. Okay, so first of all, both of those things can't be true. There's no way that people can know that suicide risk is elevated if gender transition is delayed unless the long-term studies are in place. And they're already stated that the bloody long-term studies aren't in place. So that's all just a lie, but it's worse than that. It's way worse than that. You see,

gender dysphoria is a variant of the suffering that's associated with negative emotion, depression and anxiety. Now, depression and anxiety are the primary drivers of suicidal not gender dysphoria per se. And so they're confusing the source. Now you were, and then there is no evidence whatsoever that transition of the medical sort actually has a salutary effect on mental health, partly because the long term study simply haven't been done. And the idea that we actually know from a research perspective that a child is much safer if they start transition,

then they are if they don't. Not only, that's just, again, that's simply not true. Ken Zucker's work has shown quite clearly that if you just leave the kids alone, then by the time they're 18 or 19, most of them settle into their biological identities. Now, so the reason I'm stressing this is because your parents, like many parents in this situation,

were put in a very, very difficult position. And I would say it's corrupt to the point of malevolence what the medical professionals are doing on this front. And that is the insistence. Well, would you rather have a live trans child or a dead child, which is, I don't think there's anything more toxic you can say to a parent than that, because that

backs them into a corner. Because their alternatives are then, well, you can let your child go ahead with this absolutely life altering hormonal and then surgical treatment, or your child can die. and it's your fault because you don't care enough. And parents, like, they're accustomed to trusting their medical professionals, at least to some degree, and accustomed to assuming that the knowledge they put forward is valid and reliable, and the information that your family was given was none of those.

In fact, it's pathological to a degree that's almost imaginable. It's criminal in my estimation what you were told. Because there is simply, there is simply no evidence that any of that is the case. There's no evidence that transitioning kids are less likely to be suicidal. There's no evidence that that's the only treatment path that works. And there's certainly no evidence that there's no alternative to transition or suicide. It's so pathological, I can't believe it, but it's no wonder your parents were pushed into a corner. You know, because that's a dreadful choice for a parent to have to make. Yeah, they're definitely coerced into it. And after that, they obviously were more open to the idea

of me being medicalized. And I gender specialist decided to refer me to an endocrinologist. The first one, who I saw actually was the only person who really pushed back on this. After the appointment, he said, you are very young, you're 13 and this could have some negative implications for your brain development going forward. So I think it's that it's something that should wait. I'm not going to prescribe these to you.

And after that, I was just referred to another endocrinologist who after about two or three appointments gave me the consent forms for blockers. I started about a month after that. And then I had another appointment to sign off on the forms for testosterone. And my mom also had to sign off on them. This was the Browns late 2017, early 2018, and I don't know if it's still true now that

you need your parents to, if you're a minor to sign off on forms for hormones or anything like that because they're trying to, they're trying to push for kids being able to independently make that choice, but um, you know, when I started, when I was reading these forums, you know, they, it lists a few, a few side effects for either of them, but I was a perfectly healthy kid before I started transitioning. So, you know, it was kind of hard to determine which of those I might experience. And I was also, I was fairly a teenager, you know, kids, kids kind of tend to think that they're invincible, that they're,

that nothing could get them, but I started experiencing some, some complications that affect me to the stay. Okay, so three questions. What were you experiencing socially at this time? Like how broadly had you made your transition known and what was the consequence socially? And then what were you fantasizing about your life being like if you were, if you successfully transitioned to a boy, so to speak? And then what were the consequences of the hormonal

treatment? So let's go through those one by one. What was happening to you on the social front at this point? So I was in eighth grade at this point and I wasn't really like out to anybody at the then family and a few people at school. But my other peers who I didn't necessarily speak to about this did notice my change in presentation if I was, that I started to look more like a boy and they weren't necessarily the nicest to me about it.

If I was kind of ostracized amongst my peers, they would call me names and there was one boy who would harass me over the course of the school year. And he, there was an incident with him that I will bring up later, but I wasn't, my peers weren't necessarily the most supportive of me at this time. But once I started on the,

the hormones and I started having the physical changes. I'll go on that later, actually. Okay, so what were you hoping for? I'm presuming your fantasy life switched to some degree. Now you told me earlier that in the earliest stages of your transformation into adulthood, you were thinking about this voluptuous female ideal and then be moaning your distance from that. But now you've decided to change sexes, essentially.

And so you have a new vision of who you could be and what life would be like, I presume, that would be going along without. What was, what were you expecting slash hoping for and why did you believe it? You know, I wanted to be, by this idea of myself in my head, you know, I wanted to be more like a man. I wanted to be, I wanted to be strong both physically and mentally and independent and not really have to worry about how the people felt about me. And I also wanted to be, I guess, just more confident in general than in myself as a person and also my body. And once I started on testosterone, I started seeing all the physical changes, you know,

my hair, my eyebrows got thicker, I started developing more muscle, my face and my body became more square-ish and I felt good about myself. I felt like I looked good for pretty much the first time in my life. And I felt like I had some control over how I looked. And initially, it felt great. Yeah, well, testosterone can have that effect directly, pharmacologically as well. Well, okay, so we can take that apart a little bit.

Look, there is nothing wrong with you wanting to have those things, right? I mean, why wouldn't you want to be more confident? Why wouldn't you want to be more comfortable in your body? And, you know, those are perfectly reasonable goals. The problem comes in making the assumption that the only pathway to those goals is physiological transformation, right? Because there's an idea there that, well, if you're female,

those goals are obviously impossible. It's like, well, no, they're not. There's lots of women who are confident and who can stand up for themselves and who are courageous and forthright. And, like, that's perfectly within the realm of the full range of feminine behavior. And so, a therapist who had any sense

would have helped you at that point, understand that there were practical steps that you could have taken to bolster yourself on all those temperamental dimensions that wouldn't have required anything radical, right? They would have required, well, first of all, a vision and then a strategy and then some diligent practice. You know, and you could have made a fair bit of progress on that.

I would think within six months to a year, with a bit of alteration in your social behavior. So the idea that the only pathway to this was through radical hormonal and physiological transformation. It's just preposterous. And then, of course, there's the the additional complication which would be, well, you were enticed, let's say, into the idea that you would be better off being a man, but that's really not a pathway that's open to you in some fundamental sense either, because there are physiological impediments to that that aren't, that aren't, they can't be overcome. I mean, I've done a reasonable amount of research into, like, penile construction, for

example, and to call that a primitive science is to give it far more credit than it's do. And so that's a huge technical problem. And then there's a problem, of course, that lurks underneath that, which is even if you do manage that, which is highly unlikely and extremely invasive and unbelievably dangerous and very experimental. And there's no long-term studies whatsoever done on the consequences. You're still not going to be fully physiologically functional as a man.

You're not going to be able to procreate as a man. And you're going to sacrifice your ability to have children as a woman. I mean, this is a big bloody sacrifice. And so were you led through contemplation of those sorts of things by your therapists? Not really. They never really went and dubbed them. I mean, they would talk about like the, to me, about like the, they would talk about like this side effects and also basically give propaganda to my parents

that this was gonna make me better. This is going to improve my distress and make me happier. And I felt the same way. I thought, you know, the things I heard from both the physicians and from the research I did online basically gave me this idea that I was going to become my real self, that I would become a whole person in doing this and it fractured my sense of self even further.

Okay. And this is something that... Why did it fracture? Why did it fracture your sense of self further? What do you mean by that? There's a lot to that actually. I mean, I was basically in the life for a few years. That was very stressful. And I was trying to uphold this idea I had myself in my head that was false. It was a delusion. I genuinely believe that I was somehow a man despite not just

despite being a biological female. And in a lot of ways I missed out on a lot of on on certain developments, mostly social. I'm still, you know, I didn't really go through the crucial social female socialization that goes on throughout late middle school or high school. My dating pool was also affected by this. You know, I was mostly attracted to men. I didn't really have much of an interest in women,

but most of the people who were interested in me in the high school were women. And the few guys who admitted attraction to me, it seemed very sexual in nature. And it felt like if anything, I was just like a fetish to them almost. I didn't really, I didn't want to, I didn't want to have anything to do with that. Yeah, that sounds extremely complicated. There is also another element to it, but I haven't really spoken on before,

but I feel like it does need to be said. It is kind of uncomfortable because I was just because of my age at the time, and it's also a very sensitive topic, but I think I did also have some sexual motivations in doing this. I like the idea of like the changes sauce run would bring on to my body. And I guess, I mean, people, a lot of feminists and activists who speak against, speak about transition, transgender people and detransitioners.

They often talk about HGP or auto-binaffelia, which is like a, I don't know if you're familiar with, yeah, it's like a, yeah. Like a man. So auto-binaffelia is the fantasy. It's a sexual fantasy generally. And it often characterizes men who become transsexual and start cross-dressing later in life.

And they develop a sexual, they develop sexual arousal from picturing themselves or acting out being the opposite sex. And so I think some of that, by the way, you know, you talked about the fact that you wanted to have some of the classic male attributes, masculine attributes, right, like self-confidence and courage and so forth,

and that you were complemented when you were referred to in that manner. I think a lot of what happens to these men who develop these sexual fetishes later in life is that there is a part of them that's crying out for exploration of and development of their feminine side, right? But instead of having that happen psychologically and starting to integrate, let's say, compassion and care and concern for people

rather than things, instead of integrating those cross-sexual proclivities, they start to act it out as if it's a concrete reality, right? And you were definitely enticed into doing that. But you also said, and don't let me delve into this more than you're comfortable with, but you also said that there was a sexual element specifically.

So was there something in your fantasies about, what was that? Was that about you being a boy? You said you were still attracted to women. So we brought this up. we might as well clarify it. What was the nature of the interaction with sexuality? I mean, so obviously relevant. It was fantasies about like, yeah, about being a man,

about being about being male and having like masculine attributes to my body and also a lot of it didn't involve like having having a female partner, which I never really explored in real life, because I didn't have any emotional attraction to women. I didn't want to have relationship with another woman. So I never really cared to actually act it out. But I guess you could say that I did have

like a female analog of auto-gonnaphilia. If there's a word for I guess it would be auto-angerphilia, but I didn't really understand this at the time because I was so young. Yeah, well, look, I mean, in adolescence, the range of sexual fantasy can be extremely broad. You know, and there is a difference between fantasy and real life. I mean, people will fantasize about things that they won't do in their real life.

And the fact of the fantasies, it can become pathological if people dwell on it, but the fact that the fantasy covers a wider range than behavior would is actually more an indication of the creative capacity of fantasy, right? I mean, we'll do things in our dreams, for example, or play out scenarios in our dreams that would never occur in real life. And it's because part of the human capacity for ingenuity is the capacity to imagine

multiple different scenarios. And some of those can be extreme. Like I'll find, for example, that if I'm angry with something, I can have quite violent fantasies. And I think, oh my God, where did that come from? But that doesn't mean that I would act them out, or at least I hope it means that I wouldn't act them out. So our fantasy life is broader than our actual life.

And you border the acting out of your fantasies by, well, by social necessity in some sense. So the mere fact that you were having those fantasies, that's not an indication of anything that's in and of itself pathological. That's still well within the realm of normative, adolescent sexual fantasy, I would say. You know, maybe it was a little more exaggerated in your case

because of the testosterone, and maybe even to some degree, because of your more masculine temperament, but it's still well within the range of normality. So what happened to you when you started taking the hormones? And how did you react to that? You know, I started having some physical changes like with my appearance and also some behavioral changes. Like I felt more confident. I felt I started to develop kind of a competitive streak with

especially with boys my age and I started socializing just a little bit more like they did. And I also obviously because I was taking Androgens I also started experiencing in a very strong increase in my libido, and it was very difficult to keep up with, and it started to become a problem with me without me even realizing it. I did, unfortunately, develop an addiction to porn, and I also just had a very unhealthy relationship with my body and sexuality. And I still do to this day. So on the porn front, was that female images or male?

What was mostly female? Mostly female. Okay, so it was mostly female, but you had no interest in establishing a relationship with females. On the dating front, you still wanted to, at least in principle, you still wanted to be with boys. Jesus, that's quite a confusing method to walk through. So yeah, no kidding.

You must have really been going in five directions at the same time during that period, boys. There's no clear pathway forward through that. So how in the world did you orient yourself? You know, I didn't, I really couldn't because I couldn't, I didn't really have like any dating opportunities and I just couldn't really explore that kind of thing. You know, I had a lot of, this did become a bit of a source of distress for me in high school. You know, I was frustrated, I had urges that I couldn't really fulfill. And on top of that, I was watching all my other peers get into romantic and sexual relationships

and have that kind of development while I was just, at least I felt like I was just completely behind. Right, okay, okay. So, all right, so now, and what kind of, well, those are complex effects of testosterone. What would you say, and the upside was you had more confidence and more self-assurance, you were more competitive. There was a heightened sex drive, which is a mixed blessing. What were the negative consequences for you of the hormone treatment? Sorry, I also forgot to mention that like, because I couldn't find a partner in real life,

I eventually turned to dating online, which only made me more stressed because I had these feelings for somebody that I couldn't even see or touch. And it just added on to my stress of anything and I found that if anything I just more often than not I would just get used by other people. Either, either, either emotionally for support or for more intimate images of me. But it was the closest I could get to rural intimacy, and I was quite lonely throughout high school. I did end up developing depression, and this was a big thing driving that definitely. Mass for the more negative effects of testosterone.

You know, at first, it made me feel great. It was kind of comparable to a stimulant almost. You know, I find, while I was on the blockers, that's it. There was probably a month-long period between starting those in the testosterone. And during that period of time, because I had no sex

hormones in my body, I often felt very lethargic, a little bit depressed. And you know, once I had the hormones hormones in my body. I often felt very lethargic, a little bit depressed. And I once I had hormones back in my body, so it was my energy. That my energy came back. And so there is, you can say that there was a little bit of honeymoon period that lasted for maybe no more than about a year and a half. But I found

that I was more prone to anxiety. And I also about I'd say about like a year or so on testosterone. I started experiencing some difficulties with my urinary tract. I was, I started, I think I got my first UTI and then eventually it evolved to me having like a, like being unable to fully empty my bladder or having to urinate frequently or even getting like blood in my urine. And none of this was listed on my consent forms.

I didn't even know that it was a problem that arose from taking testosterone. And so after I stopped taking it and it got worse. All right, so now while all this is happening, you're also marching down the transition pathway, right? So you went from blockers to testosterone, and then what? This is when you're about 14.

Now we're about where you're 14. Yeah. Jesus, that's awful. Yeah, at the end of eighth grade, at the end of eighth grade, the bully that I mentioned earlier, actually sexually assaulted me, you assaulted me before this point. But I was about several months on the testosterone.

I was very confident myself. And I never really cared to try to hide my chest or anything because I was maybe about a beaker less. And I was quite thin. I would often wear baggy shirts. And so I never really thought it would be a problem. But he had grotesque me in the middle of a classroom. And before this, I actually had a fear,

a very strong fear of being sexually assaulted. A lot of my female peers and some of the older women I knew had been either assaulted or raped or sexually abused. And hearing these accounts growing up made me fear the same thing eventually happened to myself and then it did. And you know, in that moment, it was like, it was like glass shattering. It felt like I was the only person in the room because it was as if nobody even noticed or cared that this happened to me. And I ended up downplaying it in my head. It was like, well, nobody noticed. And nobody saw, so maybe it just doesn't matter.

What exactly happened? What exactly happened to you if you don't mind? So that, so that? He walked up to me. You were in class? Yeah, no, it was, yeah, this was in class. And he just walked up to me. He had a hat.

He often would do things to intimidate me and then he took a step further by squeezing one of my breasts. Uh-huh, I see. And at the time it was just like, oh, maybe it's just boys being boys. So I'll just play it off and be a man about it. And I won't be bothered by it. No, there's definitely malevolent intent behind that.

I knew that even if it did bother me, that I wouldn't really have a chance to speak up because if I brought it up to the school office, then they would just leave the kid with a slap on the wrist. And he would come back maybe like a, maybe after like a two-day suspension and then potentially do something worse to me. So I didn't bother.

Right, right, right, right, right. So that made you feel more isolated. That's what you said. It made you feel right that nobody cared. Yeah, yeah, well, that's a real, you know, a lot of people get traumatized by malevolent say. Like, it's not even exactly the physical act, although it's obviously also that.

It's the fact that someone is doing something literally designed to hurt you and subjugate you and make you miserable. And so you get contact with that intent and that's really hard on people to encounter malevolence like that. So it's no wonder it bothered you. You know, and you can think,

well, what did it really mean physically? What really didn't damage me? It's like, that's not the point. The point is the intent of the person who did it. And this was a bully who is, what would you say, accelerating his bullying cycle. And God only knows where that would have gone, because someone like that who doesn't have enough internal constraint, there's no limit in some sense to what they might eventually do. So you had reason to be afraid and to be set back on your heels.

So that's really too bad. So okay, so that threw you for a loop. How did that play into your next decision? So very soon after that was when I decided to start binding my chest. I asked my mom to buy me a binder by me some binders online. I don't know if you know what they are, but they're they're like a compression of ice and cover part of the torso and in the chest area. They basically like squeeze the breasts to make them look flatter. And you know, I wore those for about, I'd say, two years before getting a mastectomy, and I got sick of it.

Like, I would work out, I would swim, I would walk home, and super hot weather in these things, and I just wanted to be done with it. Like, I wanted to be free of wearing this thing but at the same time, I didn't want my chest to be visible. I was afraid of the attention that would bring me, and also, I genuinely believed myself to be a boy. I wanted to look like a boy and be able to take my shirt off without any cares. About halfway through my sophomore year, I told my therapist that I was seeking a mastectomy and through a gender specialist,

I was referred to a surgeon. And I had an appointment with him and I. And so what did your therapist say? Okay, so what's happening with your therapist during all this time? I mean, so you're a physiologically healthy young woman and you've just announced that you want to undergo a form of radical surgery that's generally reserved

for advanced stage cancer survivors. And the upshot of that is you're hustled off to a specialist who can facilitate that. There's no investigation into all the background issues that we've been talking about instead. Well, it was just seen as it was part of the process. Like there is really no psychological evaluation for it. I,

Yep, that's utterly appalled. You know, I'm, I'm so, I've been embarrassed for years to be a member of the intellectual academy under the current conditions that universities have put themselves into. I'm equally embarrassed to be part of the therapeutic community to hear a story like yours. It's absolutely appalling what happened to you. There's no excuse whatsoever for it. It's such a dereliction of responsibility that it's almost unimaginable.

So it's really too bad that you weren't listened to in a lot more detail and with a lot more care, you know? Because what you went through, it's not that abnormal. You know, everything you told me about your unhappiness is a teenager, the fact that you are isolated in middle school, the fact that you had some doubts about your developing identity, it's like, yeah, that's pretty much part for the course for adolescents.

Some kids get through it with a little less scarring than others, but most adolescents have a pretty damn miserable time for about three years. And so the fact that that led you down a path to hormonal transformation and then surgery and that adults aided and abetted this, I have some sympathy for your parents because when parents are told, you better support your child or it'll be suicide. It's like, well, that backs them into a corner.

But the medical professionals and the counselors who dealt with you, that there are negligence borders. It doesn't just border on the criminal. It crosses the boundary as far as I'm concerned. Okay, so now you're set. You go off to see a specialist. Who's the specialist? And how do they treat? It's important to note that I mean, it absolutely was negligence because not only was I given surgery for a problem that was psychological in nature. And the months before that, that was when I had been diagnosed with depression and social anxiety when my suicidal radiation started happening. At the beginning, they told my parents, like, your child will be at RISU suicide if you

don't affirm her identity, but it wasn't until after I started the treatments that I started feeling like committing suicide. Yeah. Did you have a plan? No, I never really had a plan, but it was the feeling was prevalent enough to that. It affected my day-to-day life. Right, right.

So when you assess people for suis-ideality, essentially what you do is you investigate the structures of their fantasies and their wishes. And the more developed the plan they have, the higher the probability is that they'll actually commit suicide. Right? So if it's a fully developed plan, place location, implement all of that, then the person's really at risk.

Otherwise, and it sounds like this was the case in your case, it's more a marker of generalized depression and anxiety because that will often spin off. Quasaic suicidal thoughts like, well, maybe it would be better for everyone else if I wasn't here or life is too difficult. And so it would be simpler. All things considered just to bring it to an end.

That's bad. And it's also associated with a fair bit of suffering. But those thoughts in and of themselves are not associated with a spectacular, a high risk of imminent suicide. So, okay, but in any case, you were miserable enough at this point. Well, obviously, then you'd be looking for what, further alleviation of your psychological symptoms. And you said, the binding was very uncomfortable and troublesome.

And so that also led you to conclude that it just might be simpler, all things considered since you were already on the pathway to being a boy just to go down the surgical route. Yeah. So you were 14 when that happened? I was 15 at this time.

I was in my sophomore year of high school. They also started to treat my depression. They decided to medicate me for it. From what little I knew about medicating depression, I often heard that SSRIs have all these terrible side effects. I asked that they put me on something with as few side effects as possible and they decided to put me on well butrium, which I didn't know until after I stopped doing it. But it actually has like a huge black box label warning on it for use in children adolescents. And it actually made me feel more suicidal over time. Okay. All right. So, all right. So now you're 15 and you go see a specialist in relationship to surgery.

How were you evaluated at that point when you actually moved forward for the surgery? I don't remember much of it, but it was, I mean, obviously, they didn't really do an evaluation of my mental health. It was just like, oh, so you're transitioning. You identify as a boy and you've been on hormones for such and such amount of time. So that was, that was optimal. And after my first appointment, I was, that was, the surgeon told me about a top surgery classroom that was taking place in the hospital building and encouraged me and my parents to attend it. And I went and I learned basically the same things that I learned in the surgeon's office,

about the different types of incisions and how it benefits gender dysphoria, basically just propaganda. There are maybe about like 12 to 15 or so other families in there. I noticed right away that all the other kids in there looked to be either younger than me or like they hadn't even started on hormones yet. And I was shocked that they

were already seeking surgery. But it kind of, I didn't really question it much of the time. I was just like, oh, I guess this is just normal. And I'm not the only one going through this. Right, right, right. Well, you were already a long way down the road. So I guess you checked off the box as far as the medical practitioners were concerned. But at that point, it's also for you, it's going to be increasingly difficult to reverse your decision. You're already in a couple of years, and that's a long time when you're only 14.

And so it was on to the next step. So that happened when you were 15. And so what was the consequence of the double mistake to me for you? What's been the consequence? Um, by this point in time, you know, I was two years was two or three years on testosterone, and I'd been binding for roughly the same amount of time, and my breasts had lost their shape.

They didn't look like they used to move forward. They didn't, to me, it just looked strange. And I actually just started developing more and securities with my body as I went through my transition. You know, like I had these masculine features pop up, but it was all still on a female body. And there was like an incinerance between different features on my body, and especially my breasts.

Like it was this masculine looking body with quite a bit of muscle. And yet these things were there and they weren't really in the best shape. And it became a source of insecurity for me. And I thought that even if I wanted to, I would, my chest would never be the same again. And so there was not really any point in keeping it. And before I went under

Before I went under the knife they did tell me that I was going to lose my ability to breastfeed, but it was like I'm gonna be a man and men don't do that I also I also wasn't really thinking about being a parent at all because I was I was kid Actually, this was This is kind of reminiscent of the, of one of the appointments for, for getting the testosterone. My endocrinologist asked me some questions

that were very adult in nature. I was basically being sexualized by my doctors. They, it was like, are you aware that you may experience vaginal atrophy or are you aware that this may affect your ability to have children as an adult? And I just went along with it. It was like, oh yeah, I know that I don't plan on having kids. And I also hadn't had, I never had sex by that point.

So I didn't know just what effect on you that would have on my body. I never had sex by that point. So I didn't know just what effect on you that would have on my body. But I was being treated as if I were an adult with the mental faculties to be able to consent to all this and understand what I was consenting to. But I wasn't. I was just a kid.

Okay, and so what happened in the aftermath of the surgery? What was that like for you? You know, when I woke up and I was fully conscious, all the meds had worn off, and I realized what just happened. But I was actually quite happy. You know, I was like, wow, I just, this is a huge accomplishment. This is a huge step. And, you know, I can finally be myself.

And I was looking forward to being healed and eventually being able to go out and swim and work out and just hang out without a shirt and look like all the other boys and not have to worry about wearing this uncomfortable restrictive thing. And, you know, I got, it was an outpatient surgery. Got some home pretty soon after that. And, but, I'm comfy, I guess you'd say a few weeks after that, because my mom had to take some time off work to just help me around the house. I was a major surgery in my upper body in dilose, a considerable amount of my range of motion.

I couldn't even lift up my arms over my head until maybe about like three or four months afterward. So I wasn't really in a state to be going out all my own. But after about a week or so was when reality started to hit, I had to get my stitches taken out a few days afterward. And the sensation was just insane. Like, they had to cut in rearrange some new revendings. So it was like, it was numb, but I could also feel everything that they're doing when they're taking out the stitches.

And I was, it felt so disgusting. And once I went home and I was able to finally bathe again, that was when I started having to, that's when I had to take off the surgical binder and the dressings and look down at what was left of my chest. You know, I had these big scars and all these markings from a surgical marker and on top of that. I will just a warning, I will get in so graphic detail here, but the type of incision that I got was called a double incision with nipographs, meaning that they would not only take out the it was explained to me. I guess because I was young and they were trying to make it more digestible to a 15-year-old, was that they would leave like a deep scrapes on both sides of my chest, kind of like a deep knee scrape, but more

more controlled and they would They would remove mineples and then place them in that area of scrap skin in a they called a more masculine positioning and shape it's far better to say at least and When I took the dressings off, when I looked down, the graphs, they were black because during the surgery, during the operation, the blood supply was cut off and so the outer layer of skin had died.

And they said that that was how it was supposed to be and that was just part of the process. But I couldn't bear to see that part of my body. I had to see that every night. I had to change my... That was what I had to look at every single night after every bath, after every shower. What happened to you in relationship to sensation? Like, because that's a long-term physiological and sexual consequence.

And so, you lose the ability to breastfeed, obviously. And there's a profound physiological alteration in your appearance. But what happens to you on the sensation side? What has happened? It's certainly not the same. It's gotten a lot better with the years. I mean, initially, I would get a lot of, it felt like,

sparks electricity as the nerve ending is revoked, but it's, it's strange. Like I can move like a hand over a certain area of my chest and it'll feel like it's in my arm or something. And I have basically basically no erogenous sensation in the graphs. Yeah, okay, okay. So it wasn't long after this that you started to have doubts about what you were doing.

Now, you told me earlier in this discussion that at some point you started thinking about having children. But then also that you decided to stop your transition when you were 16. So how did that lay itself out after you had the surgery? And how did you come to the decision that the decision you had made was not a good one? Not long after, I'd say maybe about a month or two, I started realizing that, you know, I'm, I'm just looking pretty in having softer features in a more feminine form. But this was something that I kind of repressed for a while. It was, I mean, I was about three years

on testosterone by this point, and I didn't even look like a woman anymore. I thought there was no going back, and there would be no point. But at the same time, I would also buy makeup and skirts and dresses and just wear it in the comfort of my room or when nobody was home to see it.

And this caused a great deal of distress for me. And after the surgery, I just kept getting worse. I just kept justifying in my head as it being part of the post-op process, but I never really gotten you better. And it wasn't until maybe about 11 months after the surgery that I realized what the problem was. And I was taking a psychology class at this point.

I had a lesson, I had a chapter on, on child development and parenting. And one of the, one of the lessons was about the Harlow experiments with the Reese's monkeys, the ones exploring the relationship between mother and her child, how things like a physical affection and breastfeeding affect that. And I realized that my breasts were so much more than just sexual organs. I mean, there are a means of not only feeding my kid, but also, I lost so much more than that.

Off providing them with love and attention. Yeah, well, look, you know, there's a woman named Tiffany Fields. She studied under, she studied the work of a man named Ryak Panks, happened. Panks have showed that in order for rat pups to develop properly, they had to be physically stimulated. Touched, lick, loved, the experimenters can duplicate that by massaging them with the

end of a pencil eraser. Anyways, Tiffany Fields showed that if you took premature kids that were in an incubator and you massaged them three times a day for 10 minutes, that they developed as fast physically as children in utero. There's a huge body of research showing that that skinned skin contact is crucial. That's physical love. That skinned skin contact is a crucial part of establishing the, what would you call it, the domain of love that's necessary for children to flourish.

Food, shelter, you know, the provision of adequate that's necessary for children to flourish, food, shelter, the provision of adequate water, et cetera. Those basics are necessary, but that physical contact in love is equally necessary. And so it's definitely the case that, well, breastfed children tend to thrive more thoroughly, right? And that's partly a nutritional issue, but it's also partly an issue of the fact that a lot of the love, that's maternal love, that entices children into life is a consequence of physical contact.

And so, yeah, well, that's a hell of a realization. So that started to dawn on you in high school after you had the surgery. Yeah. I felt like a monster. And you were starting to think about having kids at that point. And so why? What do you think that was triggered by the surgeon? Like what switched you? I think it was most of that class.

I mean, I was learning a lot about myself and also about parenting and about children. And that was my real life. I think I would have kids someday. And I started really thinking about it, not only about how it relates to having lost my breasts, but also my fertility might be affected by having to start a testosterone so young.

And do you know, do you know whether that is the case now, has have you been tested in a manner that indicates whether the blockers and the testosterone have interfered with your fertility? I don't know. I mean, by the time that I started, I was, I didn't start having periods, but they were, I was so young by that point.

I, they weren't, they weren't regular. I was only having about three to four per year. That was also another source of stress for me about being a woman. I felt, yeah, it was scary. Like all the other girls, my age, we talked about like how, you know, they had, they got theirs every month or every two months.

And, you know, I learned it's a myth now, but they would talk about how like their cycles would supposedly sink with like family members or friends. And I was like, that, why isn't that happening to me? And so I, it it was just a thing, another thing the pile that made me feel like I was broken. Luckily after stopping. Right, right, right.

Luckily after stopping about two months later, I got my period back and it's been surprisingly quite regular since. I don't know if I went through some development. Oh, well, that's a good sign. That's a good sign. Right, well, that's a good sign. That's a good sign. Right, well, that's a good sign. That must be a relief, so to speak.

But I mean, there's so many other factors that play into that. I just, I haven't been able to get tested. And I'm just not really sure of what's to come. But I'm hopeful. Right, right, right, right, right. Okay, so when did you stop taking the testosterone and when did you announce this to your parents?

Well, when did you announce this to yourself and then to your parents and all the other people around you who knew? I think after my junior year wrapped up one night, I just kind of broke down crying and I realized that I regret after my junior year wrapped up one night, I just kind of broke down crying and I realized that I regretted my transition and I called a friend and I texted my mom, I couldn't call her or talk to her about in person because I had a lot of guilt, I had a lot of shame and I didn't want to let her and dad and the rest of the family down after so many years of doing this.

And they invested their time and their money into doing this. And it was pretty much for nothing. And I hated that. It was also just shameful to admit that I was wrong after so much time. Especially since I didn't even look like a girl anymore at by that point. Right. Yeah, well, it's quite remarkable in some sense

that you did reverse your decision. And you seem to be indicating to me that it was the realization that you wanted to have children, that was the real telling moment of transformation? Was it? It was definitely one of the biggest catalysts. And how do you think you figured that out? Because it's actually pretty young to figure that out.

I mean, I've met many women now who, there's lots of women, you're age, who are absolutely hell-bent and convinced that they're never going to have kids, that the only pathway forward to them that's valid is the career pathway. But I'll tell you that, you know, I'm 60 years old now and I've worked with women in female dominated businesses my whole life because I'm in the psychological profession and so that's female dominated. And virtually every woman I've ever met

with almost no exceptions, and this includes extremely high achieving women on the career front, pretty much by the time they're in their late 20s, the their primary goal is to have a child. And that's even the case. Now, sometimes that kicks in for women later than that. I've seen that as well, but it's an extremely rare woman who goes through her entire young life without being seized by the desire to have a child. And so, but

it's early in your case. And it's strange, right? In some ways, because you'd fought against this so hard. Why the hell do you think it made itself manifest as a desire when you were 16? Like, did you do you think you knew that you were really like on the cutting edge in some sense, you know, that if you kept pushing this, you were really gonna sacrifice your ability to have kids? Or what do you think produced the realization?

I think, you know, I already had my guard down by that point because this was around when when COVID hit and all there were all the restrictions in the place and I was basically doing online school only and I had a lot of isolation from the outside world. And this caused me a significant amount of stress, but it also allowed for a lot more time to be alone and reflect. And so it opened up my mind a little bit. And so what were you fantasizing about on the family front when you were looking forward

into the future, you were thinking about having, did you have some idea of how many kids you wanted to have, did you have some idea about the marriage or the family structure? What was making itself manifest in your fantasy? I mean, when I started, I was so young that I wasn't even thinking about all that yet, but as you're as past and I started to think about

like my adulthood, what I wanted to do as an adult, that thought started to pop into my head a little bit more. I never really thought about it for me much. And so I learned about child psychology and just being a parent. I think I would have naturally had that realization if I guess if I knew more about parenting and family. Hey, do you know when you were a kid, when you were a kid, do you know if you played with dolls? Yeah, I did. You did, okay, so that was there.

Do you, can you remember whether or not you enjoyed that? I know that's a long time. Yeah, I did. And were they baby dolls or were they barbys? They're barbys and brats. Okay, so they were teenage dolls. Did you have any baby dolls?

Not that I can remember. Okay, okay. See, that's an in-that's interesting. You know, even among chimpanzees, if you allow chimpanzees, you've now as free choice, the males will pick trucks and wheeled things and gadgets and the females will pick dolls. And the female chimps will carry the dolls around, Teddy bears and so forth for months and develop a very deep attachment to them. You know, one of the things,

it's really necessary for young girls and perhaps for young boys, but certainly for young girls to play with baby dolls. It's really necessary, because that's all part of that practicing that deep female role. And, you know, without that, well, you don't have a chance, that's how kids think, hey, they think by playing, well, you don't have a chance,

that's how kids think, hey, they think by playing. And if they don't have a chance to play that out, then, well, they don't explore that. And so it didn't even make it manifest in your own life until you were like 16 and it'd gone through all this bloody misery. All right, so when did you start thinking about taking legal action?

And why do you think that's justifiable? That was quite a bit further down the line. As you're probably going to first about the detransition process for me and what led up to me eventually starting to speak out and doing that, yeah. When I had this realization, I mean that night when I broke down and I talked to my friend and my mom and my dad about it. That was the night that I stopped taking testosterone and I decided that I would just grow my

hair out and buy new clothes and just figure things out from there. I went for about a week, just not really doing anything. I was just kind of at rock bottom at that point and I didn't always see a reason to do anything anymore. I just stayed in my bed or in my bedroom all day, didn't really go out except to use the restroom or get some food. But mom and dad would come and check in on me and it was comforting and that kept me going. And then I had to figure out everything from there pretty much all my own. I told my endocrinologist, I told my therapist,

my endocrinologist, I told my therapist, my endocrinologist, and my generous specialist that I regretted my transition very deeply that I was going to stop and I didn't really get a whole lot of guidance on it. I guess it really couldn't because it would be against a lot to suggest anything other than... Well, that's a tricky one, right? Because, well, hypothetically, once you announce that, they're also legally bound to go along with that. Right, so they could have agreed with you.

I mean, look, I have a certain amount of sympathy for counselors and medical practitioners because they're facing Supreme Hell on their regulatory college front. But having said that, I would also say that their fundamental duty of care is to the individual and not to the bloody regulating colleges. But they could have taken your regrets seriously. You said that did you face opposition or was it just a matter of lack of guidance?

It was mostly lack of guidance. Nobody really opposed it, but I started requesting blood tests for my anachronologist. And I specifically told her that I no longer identify as male. And I went to guidelines for a female my age. And when I got the results back, they were sent with the guidelines for the average

sexual hormone levels for a teenage boy. So that was kind of the first, that was one of the first moments that really woke me up to the fact that these people weren't going to help me. The fact that these people weren't going to help me. Well, you know, it's weird, A, because if your medical people were so convinced that you were 100% right when you decided to transition to begin with, and you were right enough to take the hormones

and have the surgery, you'd think that there'd be some resistance to your sudden change of heart, but it sounds like you basically encountered the same lack of physical response to the second decision that you did to the first decision. So, which it's not surprising, although it's horrible. Yeah, I was basically entirely patient-led. Right, right.

Okay, so you decided to take legal action, I'm not sure if you're going to get a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of little bit of a little bit of little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a transitioning and then stopping transition. Before that, I actually had lost a lot of friends, both from school and online over the course of my detransition because a lot of them, I had a pretty strong change and a lot of my views and a lot of them disagreed with me heavily and they were very upset with me. There was one person who kept harassing me just because I regretted it and said that

I deserved to feel that way, that I didn't deserve to have parents who loved me enough to let me go through this. And there are a lot of others who said that I was just making them uncomfortable and that I shouldn't be voicing any of this because it would be harming other real transgender people who needed this treatment. And I did it. You're the real ones, I see. I see.

I gave in to this pressure and I did stop talking about it for a while. But I also was, I also, gone involved in communities online of people who regretted their transitions. And I realized that that wasn't the case at all, and that I just couldn't shut up because this is something that's happening more often than even I thought was happening. I didn't even know that these transitionsition was a thing until after until it happened to me. And you know, I

knew that there's got to be so many other people in the situation, especially kids who are being pressured by their friends to stay silent about their pain. And somebody, it's not necessarily that I want to speak out about it, but I feel, I feel called to. And so I started this year and. What do you think, what do you think is the core of your claim that you

fell prey to, say, medical and counseling male practice? What do you think was done wrong with you? Quite a lot actually. The most immediate thing I can think of would be the fact that the consent forms didn't weren't, they weren't really comprehensive. They were very vague, they didn't list, they didn't list,

They didn't list a, they didn't list, didn't have nearly enough information on them. And I was also just too young to really fathom what any of this meant. And they, you know, you can make the argument that, my parents. Well, you know, consent has to be, well, consent has to be documented, but it also has to be informed. And informed means you have to understand what you're consenting to.

And so from my perspective, like, especially when you were really young, say, around 12, and you first went into therapy, there should have been a very deep investigation into your background, and then a laying out of a whole comprehensive range of options and a lengthy discussion of the consequence of all of those options. And your parents, after the discussion had taken place with you, your parents should have been brought into that and they should have been walked through

the same range of options. And then you all should have been offered, what would I say, the opportunity or the necessity to take a fair amount of time to really think it through, on the fundamental basis that, well, we won't do anything precipitous until it's necessary, right?

And that harkens back to the idea that if you leave most kids with gender dysphoria, be, most of them identify as homosexual as I said eventually, but most of them, the vast majority of them accept their biological status. So the consent issue, it isn't only that the forms were vague and didn't detail out the full range of consequences, it's that you needed to be walked through in great detail. All of the issues that were relevant to you on the psychological and medical front,

all the options that were available to you and the pros and cons of all those options. And that should have been something that took. I would think that I can't see in any possible way that that could have been done with any degree of thoroughness in something under six months of weekly therapy. And I would say that's an absolute minimum to walk anyone through. Something as complicated as what you laid out. So that's on the informed. Yeah, right.

Yeah, they really presented this as basically the only option. So both me and my parents. And I also, the problem with me starting at so young was not only that I couldn't consent, I couldn't really fathom just the full picture of things. I've also experienced, I'm still experiencing a wide range of complications to the stay, you know, from the surgery, you know, I'll never be able to breastfeed. I'll never have that erogenous sensation in my chest back.

I'll never have my breast back. A reconstruction will do nothing for me and it might make things worse actually because I've had some complications pop up this year with the graphs. I have to cover them up with bandages or else they, they'll, I don't know what's going on with them. I tried to consult my surgeon about it

and she didn't really investigate. He gave me advice that made the complications worse even, and actually temporarily gave me an affection, but I have to wear a bandage up every day so that it doesn't leak all over by clothing or bedding. And from the hormones and blockers, I've been experiencing some joint pains mainly in my arms, my legs, and my back. And I still have issues with my urinary tract. I have to use the restroom pretty frequently.

And I didn't even know that this was possible. This is like a pretty huge quality of life issue that I'm experiencing. And I'm just not really getting any help for it. And on top of that, I do hate to speak about it, but I'm experiencing sexual dysfunction at the age of 18. That's something that women usually go through when they're in their 40s to 50s. Right. Right, right? How is this supposed to know?

So let's talk for a moment about how you got your lawyers and where you are on the legal battle front. So not only is what's happened to me completely unethical, completely wrong, it's caused me a lot of physical damage and emotional damage as well. I'm still picking up the pieces of my life to this day and I often find myself feeling like a broken woman, all because of a choice that I made that I was allowed to make as a kid. And I think it's very clear just how wrong all this is. None of this should have been allowed to happen.

What has happened legally? Have you served a set of people with notice that you're taking legal proceedings? Or are you still in the planning stages of that. Um, so we've filed a letter of intent to sue against Kaiser, my health provider, as well as the hospital that I underwent the surgery yet. And the surgeon who did it, the gender specialist who referred me to that surgeon and the endocrinologist who had put me on home months. Um, we're still, we're still in the 90 day period. Right. So this is all just so this is all just unfolding now.

So you're going to end up with a pretty damn thorough medical and legal education. By the time you're done all of this and a media education as well. That's for sure. So look, we should wrap this part up. For everyone who's watching and listening, I'm going to talk to Chloe for another half an hour on the Daily Wire Plus platform. Think what I'm gonna do.

I often walk people through the development of their career, but that's not relevant in her situation. What I'm gonna do instead is talk to Chloe about, she was recently at an event with Matt Walsh, and I wanna talk to her about that, and I wanna talk to her about the response she's got from the gender, let's say, ideologues and activists in relationship to going public with her decision

to detransition. So we're going to delve into that for about half an hour. And so if those of you who are watching and listening found this interesting and you're inclined, switch over to the Daily Wire Plus platform and we'll fill in the political end of this at least to some degree. And Chloe, thank you very much for talking to me today. And I'm really... it's really... what I'm to use really unforgivable in my estimation.

You know, you are very badly mishandled by the people who should have been taken care of you on the professional front. And you were, you were, you know, offered a pathway forward that I can see to be highly tempting for someone in your situation. But there are many, many, many, many other options available to you on the therapeutic front that would have resolved the problems that you've had to the degree that human problems can ever be resolved without having to wander through this bloody catastrophic labyrinth of pain and suffering and confusion that you've been subject to for the last five years. And so I hope that you can get yourself back on proper footing and move forward.

And I wish you all the luck there is on the legal front. I hope your damn legal system in the United States isn't so corrupted already by all this woke nonsense so that it'll be impossible for you to proceed. But I suspect that the medical community who's been complicit in this kind of butchery has an awful shock waiting for them on the legal front. So that certainly started to manifest itself in the UK with the closing of the Tava stock clinic. And I think there's a thousand lawsuits right now pending in relationship to the Tava stock clinic. So the tide is beginning to turn and when it turns there's going to be an awful lot of

reparations made on the part of culpable medical professionals and their counseling accolades. So good luck with that, eh? And keep your head up and we'll flip over to the Daily Wire Plus platform. For all those you watching and listening, thank you very much for your time and attention. And thanks again, Chloe, for being willing to wander through this, you know, relatively painful personal territory. Thank you so much. Hello, everyone.

I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com. com.